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How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/08 22:51:08


Post by: SemperMortis


Out of curiosity what do you guys think Boyz will cost with the new codex, we know as a fact they are getting buffed to T5 and getting AP-1 Choppas. At the moment they are 8ppm. I would love to read justifications for opinions as well


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 00:03:05


Post by: Daedalus81


Plenty of units saw durability buffs with no increase. I don't see a huge reason for that here. We may see other changes though.

Now who the hell voted 15 points?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 00:49:51


Post by: Jarms48


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Plenty of units saw durability buffs with no increase. I don't see a huge reason for that here. We may see other changes though.

Now who the hell voted 15 points?


Space Marines got a 2 or 3 point increase for that second wound. Seems pretty reasonable Orks will be around 10 - 11 points with their buffs.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 00:52:06


Post by: Daedalus81


Jarms48 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Plenty of units saw durability buffs with no increase. I don't see a huge reason for that here. We may see other changes though.

Now who the hell voted 15 points?


Space Marines got a 2 or 3 point increase for that second wound. Seems pretty reasonable Orks will be around 10 - 11 points with their buffs.


A point of toughness with a wet t-shirt save is not equivalent to a wound in power armor.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 00:54:51


Post by: Grimskul


I can see it going to 9 ppm, I'm hoping they stay at 8 though, since going up to 9 makes it unlikely that the new snagga boyz will be costed correctly.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 01:48:06


Post by: Galas


I believe they'll be 9ppm. And snaga boyz at 10ppm. So two snaga for an intercessor and two boyz for a tactical.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 02:58:37


Post by: Voss


I worry they'll be 10 (two upgrades = 2 Points, because GW logic) and beastsnaggas will be 12 for roughly the same reason.

8 & 10 respectively feels optimistic, but best since boyz are currently overpriced


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 03:42:15


Post by: AnomanderRake


I expect they'll either be 2-3pts less than they should be or 2-3pts more than they should be, so, given the result of this poll, either 7ppm or 13ppm.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 03:46:04


Post by: Eonfuzz


Everyone knows the 3+ save is WORTHLESS and orks are getting an even better defensive buff than +1 wound because EVERYONE is using D2 weapons.

They should cost as much as a first born at least!


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 04:15:55


Post by: Spoletta


I have yet to meet someone who doesn't spam d3+3 and d6+2 damage weapons with AP-4, so clearly only the T5 part is relevant. They are functionally identical to aggressors and are troops!
I'd say that 40 ppm is the bare minimum.

I voted 9.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 06:59:10


Post by: Blackie


With T5 base and AP-1 in combat, but the likely loss of respawning stratagem, I feel they finally worth 8ppm, they've been quite overcosted in 8th. 9ppm at most, but only if the codex is pretty strong to justify that.

Wracks are 8ppm, and not really worse than boyz. Wyches are way more killy than boyz, not particularly less resilient since their 4++ in combat and access to effective transports, and they're 10ppm.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 07:28:02


Post by: Jidmah


With the information we have right now, I vote 8 points, thought if there are ways to improve them above and beyond what we know, more points might be adequate.
I assume that scarboys will be gone to open design space for beast snaggas, and without that stratagem, current boyz aren't even remotely worth 8 points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Plenty of units saw durability buffs with no increase. I don't see a huge reason for that here. We may see other changes though.

Now who the hell voted 15 points?


50/50 split between someone trying to get a rise out of certain ork posters or someone who genuinely hates orks.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 07:30:56


Post by: tneva82


 Eonfuzz wrote:
Everyone knows the 3+ save is WORTHLESS and orks are getting an even better defensive buff than +1 wound because EVERYONE is using D2 weapons.

They should cost as much as a first born at least!


Lol. 60 ork boyz in a turn is easy peasy task. T5 let's say you are in optimal situation so you get 50% increase shots needed(so everything is S4. This is generous assumption huge % of shots won't care). 40 dead.

So before 480 pts died in a turn. And now in super generous situation 720 pts.

Either you hate orks and just want them to be nerfed to death or you would make super bad game designer(to say it politely)


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 07:32:25


Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


I voted 9. I'd like them to keep 8 since a massive melee horde on 32mm bases has some self limiting damage application in of itself.

Im worried it'll be 11 and the snagga beast boys will be something obscene like 15 so GW can say the upcoming Ork box "WOOOW, like 500 pts in a box!!!"


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 07:36:54


Post by: Jidmah


tneva82 wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Everyone knows the 3+ save is WORTHLESS and orks are getting an even better defensive buff than +1 wound because EVERYONE is using D2 weapons.

They should cost as much as a first born at least!


Lol. 60 ork boyz in a turn is easy peasy task. T5 let's say you are in optimal situation so you get 50% increase shots needed(so everything is S4. This is generous assumption huge % of shots won't care). 40 dead.

So before 480 pts died in a turn. And now in super generous situation 720 pts.

Either you hate orks and just want them to be nerfed to death or you would make super bad game designer(to say it politely)


tneva, your sarcasm detector is broken


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 07:40:12


Post by: Not Online!!!


i can see 10 because GW.... but i think 9 is about .. fine?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 07:54:30


Post by: kirotheavenger


Don't we know that the points in the Munitorum Field Manual is the same?

Dark Eldar had their codex points released in the Munitorum Manual (complete with typos) months before their codex came out.
GW has also stated that the points for Grey Knights are already in the Manual and they're still month's away.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 07:56:52


Post by: addnid


 Jidmah wrote:
With the information we have right now, I vote 8 points, thought if there are ways to improve them above and beyond what we know, more points might be adequate.
I assume that scarboys will be gone to open design space for beast snaggas, and without that stratagem, current boyz aren't even remotely worth 8 points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Plenty of units saw durability buffs with no increase. I don't see a huge reason for that here. We may see other changes though.

Now who the hell voted 15 points?


50/50 split between someone trying to get a rise out of certain ork posters or someone who genuinely hates orks.


Let's not rise and feed the 15 point per boy troll

I voted 8, because I think boyz will lose stuff, not just the green tide strat, to balance out the ap1 choppas and the increase to toughness 5. Perhaps it is wishfull thinking...


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 08:07:12


Post by: Jidmah


 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
I voted 9. I'd like them to keep 8 since a massive melee horde on 32mm bases has some self limiting damage application in of itself.

Im worried it'll be 11 and the snagga beast boys will be something obscene like 15 so GW can say the upcoming Ork box "WOOOW, like 500 pts in a box!!!"


Interesting idea.

The box has 20 snaggas, the rider nob, 3 riders and the named runtherd, total PL will be 25

So, guessing the PLs, the nob will likely be between warboss on warbike and the nob with waaaghbanner, so 5PL is a rather sure guess.

Named ork characters that aren't combat experts tend to be PL4 and are usually 1 PL more than their generic counterpart, so unless he has some hidden super-rule, PL4 also is a safe guess

The three squig riders will be somewhere close to nob bikers, koptas and kanz, so PL7-9 for the three of them?

The 20 beastsnagga boyz in the box will be PL7-9 as well, but only 9 is a reasonable choice - otherwise they would be cheaper than boyz. So riders will be PL7.

Basically the Nob on Smasha Squig will be 85-105 points, more likely on the low end of the range
Zodgrod Wortsnagga is 65-75, also less is more likely than more for him
The squig riders are likely to be 45-50 ppm, plus bomb squig.
So unless I'm completely off with the two characters, beastsnagga boyz will be no more than 9-10 ppm, 11ppm would make the riders ridiculously cheap.





How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 08:47:18


Post by: tneva82


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Don't we know that the points in the Munitorum Field Manual is the same?

Dark Eldar had their codex points released in the Munitorum Manual (complete with typos) months before their codex came out.
GW has also stated that the points for Grey Knights are already in the Manual and they're still month's away.


Orks had ZERO changes. And had no new units in it. So no it's not the same for some reason.

That is bit weird which makes think either orks were supposed to be lot later and got moved to front or MFM is based on codex released fully and that the ork separate will be after TS/GK so even if limited box comes out before that(not yet official) it doesn't count for GW for MFM inclusion.

Either way with zero changes and no new units(unlike say sisters, GK and TS who got new units) so the MFM is old codex prices. Not new.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 11:41:22


Post by: the_scotsman


I think if it were me doing it I'd be looking into how many of the orks' major crutches i was keeping around.

if I was getting rid of or drastically changing Da Jump, Ere We Go, the +1 charge out of the Evil Sunz tactic, the KFF, or Endless Green Tide, I'd keep them at 8.

Basically if your options to deliver the new T5, AP-1 ork boyz is "walk them up the field, stick 12 in a trukk, or stick 20 in a battlewagon" then I'd consider them a pretty reasonable pick at 8pts. Kind of just a more functional Tzaangors.

if you're keeping endless green tide, keeping da jump, keeping evil sunz charge buff and keeping 'ere we go all as is, I think the new boyz are a 9pt or even 10pt model.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 12:09:27


Post by: Jidmah


The only real clutch on that list is Endless Green Tide.

Da Jump has lost a lot of power with smaller boards, changed detachment dynamics and new terrain rules and is now merely a good power instead of a mandatory auto-take that you take twice in every list.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 12:09:33


Post by: Ravajaxe


Well I voted 9 points, so only one more thant the current price. GW is accustomed to giving serious boosts to units in obvious need of a revamp, while keeping the same price, or just about the same.
Look at the Drukhari raider : same price as before, but D3+3 damage shooting, toughness 6 instead of 5. Sure they pushed the price up a bit since the codex, but in emergency, after an uproar of the communauty, youtubers, and tournament data showing that drukhari were overpowered.

So they will aknowledge the bad position of ork boyz (8th codex state) by giving almost free upgrades. I voted +1 point, instead of +0, just because there are two significant upgrades, not only T5, but AP-1 choppas.
They are likely to lose the unstoppable green tide stratagem, I think. Which will make this exchange still acceptable to ork players. But I admit I could misjuge their intent, and we would see very efficient 8 point boyz.

On the other hand, I don't believe they will cross the 10 point mark.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 12:40:11


Post by: G00fySmiley


As a primary ork player I think it depends. I am hoping they are 8 points if the codex fixes some of my perceived issues with the book.

currently the ork boy is fairly aenemic for the points before you start layering on buffs. its is the buffs that make ork horde lists work. I think it'd be much more fun to play not having to worry about distance to all the character buffs in order to make a boy go from fair to middling up to strong.

To be clear I am not saying that a buffed up boy is not powerful, more that a boyz squad out of buff range does underperform for the cost.

Lets look at a basic boyz list core as it stands now

warboss w/ klaw and kombi weapon 90 points
big mek w/ kff 60 points

boyz 30x3, 3 rokkits, nob w/ dual kill saws, 26 boyz per squad. 855 points

painboy 65 points

we now have boyz who when within range of all buff have a 5++ within 9 inches or the big mek, can advance and charge within 6 inches of the war boss, can take d3 mortals to pass morale from the boss, and ignore wounds on a 6 within 3" of the painboy.

solid buffs but now the orks are forces to be WAY more organized then I think orks should be. T5 takes care of some of the survivability and the ap-1 from choppas means the buffing characters is much less needed (not in this list but thing like ghaz being mandatory in competitive play with boyz) I am hopign for less buffs to be available in the ork codex and that they are more in the each unit relies on its own abilities kind of book.







How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 13:26:55


Post by: a_typical_hero


Voted 9.

Haven't played against Orks this edition, yet, so I don't have actual experience with/against them under the current rules.

Given the buff to T5 and the general quality of 9th edition codizies which I'm expecting for Orks to apply, too, I think 9 points will be fitting.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 13:31:41


Post by: Karol


Does the +1T going to transfer to other units ? So ork bikers are going to be t6 and mega nobz and characters are going to recive the buff too?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 13:33:42


Post by: Afrodactyl


As an Ork player, I feel I can say that Ork boys are currently overcosted. I think AP-1 choppas and T5 would be worth the 8 points they currently are considering they have to get into combat to use the AP-1 and they will still die in droves to anything even vaguely designed to kill infantry because 6+ save.

I hope that they stay at 8 points, but I've voted for 9 points because it's GW and of course they'll increase the cost.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 13:44:32


Post by: the_scotsman


Karol wrote:
Does the +1T going to transfer to other units ? So ork bikers are going to be t6 and mega nobz and characters are going to recive the buff too?


They havent said exactly, but they have said 'a wide variety'. The only ones we know for sure are Gretchin are going to t3.

If you left it up to me I'd keep the toughness on the biker stuff the same (to make bikes and buggies not the same toughness) but make ork bikers W3 instead of W2.

MANZ I can't imagine not going to t5. If not T5 W3 to be closer to terminator/gravis level, given how theyre way fething bigger than either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Afrodactyl wrote:
As an Ork player, I feel I can say that Ork boys are currently overcosted. I think AP-1 choppas and T5 would be worth the 8 points they currently are considering they have to get into combat to use the AP-1 and they will still die in droves to anything even vaguely designed to kill infantry because 6+ save.

I hope that they stay at 8 points, but I've voted for 9 points because it's GW and of course they'll increase the cost.


I think you could get rid of endless GT, but leave da jump (maybe nerf it by requiring the weirdboy to come with, like he used to, making it effectively a one use thing) and buff up defensive buffs with the new painboss and they'd work quite good at 9.

I imagine 'shoota' weaponry is going to be moving over to Rapid Fire to go along with ghazzy's gun, in order to make it so there's any chance in hell you'd take a shoota over an ap-1 choppa.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 13:50:30


Post by: Xenomancers


I vote 9 points - T5 is an elite stat which will remove a lot of wounds going to the boys.

Beasty snaggas will probably be 10 points.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 15:11:39


Post by: Castozor


I voted 9 because much like Marines getting a second wound, T5 and AP-1 are incredibly good stats even if they previously were over costed. It just seems to be GW logic that such strong buffs need at least some point hike even if the previous value was way over costed. But no skin off my back if they remain at 8. I've seen the power of 5 point Poxwalkers and if they can stay so cheap I see no reason for Orcs not too have cheap horde infantry.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 15:14:41


Post by: alextroy


8. GW has been handing out minor buffs in the new codexes for no cost. The exceptions are marine units that gained a wound and has points adjusted up. Just look at what they did for Drukhari Kabalite Warriors.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 16:03:02


Post by: warhead01


I voted 10, not because I think 10 is a good cost but because I worry GW will think 10 ppm is appropriate. Frankly anything above 7 is unpleasant. The only way I see 10ppm working is if other units costs come down.
And as a noncompetitive gamer I will advocate for using power levels in my games if that lets me put the army I want to field on the table.
It really depends. I'm only running about 90 boys now and this is the smallest number of boys I've had in a list since the 4th edition codex, it feels really weird to only have that many and anything above 10 ppm is going to feel like a completely different army, which brings us back around to the other units costs in the codex. Fingers crossed we stay at 8 point boys.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 17:10:01


Post by: SemperMortis


Jarms48 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Plenty of units saw durability buffs with no increase. I don't see a huge reason for that here. We may see other changes though.

Now who the hell voted 15 points?


Space Marines got a 2 or 3 point increase for that second wound. Seems pretty reasonable Orks will be around 10 - 11 points with their buffs.


Without being pedantic, this seems like a vague statement, could you elaborate why you feel a 2nd wound on a T4 3+ save model is the same value as +1 T is on a T4 6+ save model? Marines doubled their durability vs 1 Damage weapons for 3 points, they also gained doctrines, super doctrines and chapter tactics. Orkz would go up between 0-33% in durability depending on weapon strength. Previously, 12 S4 hits became 6 wounds and 5 dead Boyz, now its 4 wounds and 3.33 dead boyz, or about 33% more durable. 12 S5 hits went from 8 wounds and 6.6 dead boyz to 5. or about 25% more durable. S6-7 from 6.6 dead boyz to....6.6 dead boyz. no durability increase. And S8-9 went from 8.3 to 6.6 or a 25% increase in durability.

Don't get me wrong, I am very much aware that the majority of weapons in the game are between S3 and S5, but I can say with some certainty that the durability increase for boys will not be even remotely as beneficial as a 2nd wound was to Marines, and of course none of that is even touching on the fact that Ork boyz are already 33% more expensive than they were 2 editions ago, even without buffs like the Marines got; unless you think doctrines/super doctrines and a second wound are comparable to DDD and base S4.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 17:34:39


Post by: Xenomancers


Boys are probably worth 7 with their current stats. A very generous 1 point each for t and AP at a minimum puts them at 9. I could even see 10 points.



How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 17:37:58


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:
Boys are probably worth 7 with their current stats. A very generous 1 point each for t and AP at a minimum puts them at 9. I could even see 10 points.



Same question I asked above, can you explain/justify those points increases when compared to Marines? Marines got +1 wound and Chain swords also gained +1AP as well as doctrines and super doctrines and I don't see anyone complaining that a Tac Marine is broken OP even though they only went up 3pts for all that.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 19:10:33


Post by: Xenomancers


SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Boys are probably worth 7 with their current stats. A very generous 1 point each for t and AP at a minimum puts them at 9. I could even see 10 points.



Same question I asked above, can you explain/justify those points increases when compared to Marines? Marines got +1 wound and Chain swords also gained +1AP as well as doctrines and super doctrines and I don't see anyone complaining that a Tac Marine is broken OP even though they only went up 3pts for all that.

Because a marine wasn't worth anywhere near 14 points with 1 wound to begin and a tacmarine is 18 points now an assault intercessor is 19.

I say this assuming orks are going to get an army wide rule to just as every other army has.

Armywide rules really aren't a factor in points anyways. I think they just come out with a blanket rule that has a bunch of bonus rules for every army and call it even.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 19:18:24


Post by: the_scotsman


 alextroy wrote:
8. GW has been handing out minor buffs in the new codexes for no cost. The exceptions are marine units that gained a wound and has points adjusted up. Just look at what they did for Drukhari Kabalite Warriors.


Kabalite Warriors got stat increases in two stats they rarely make use of. T5 and AP-1 on their melee weapon are very much two core stats that ork boyz are getting a ton of use out of it.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 19:28:03


Post by: Xenomancers


I am seriously trying to be fair here. My gut actually tells me that a T5 -1 AP boy shouldn't be much less than a geensteeler.

Because they are essentially equal offensively and defensively + the ork even has a gun.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 19:35:13


Post by: the_scotsman


 Xenomancers wrote:
I am seriously trying to be fair here. My gut actually tells me that a T5 -1 AP boy shouldn't be much less than a geensteeler.

Because they are essentially equal offensively and defensively + the ork even has a gun.


Unsupported melee ork boyz are a Turn 3 tempo unit, while genestealers are comfortably a turn 2 tempo unit unsupported.

Adding a warboss to squeak them towards turn 2 tempo by granting advance+charge makes them effectively +2ppm.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 20:05:51


Post by: Xenomancers


 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I am seriously trying to be fair here. My gut actually tells me that a T5 -1 AP boy shouldn't be much less than a geensteeler.

Because they are essentially equal offensively and defensively + the ork even has a gun.


Unsupported melee ork boyz are a Turn 3 tempo unit, while genestealers are comfortably a turn 2 tempo unit unsupported.

Adding a warboss to squeak them towards turn 2 tempo by granting advance+charge makes them effectively +2ppm.

Adding a warboss is auto include though. It adds 0 cost to a unit of boys. He is worth his cost in melee output and threat alone.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 20:46:17


Post by: JNAProductions


 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I am seriously trying to be fair here. My gut actually tells me that a T5 -1 AP boy shouldn't be much less than a geensteeler.

Because they are essentially equal offensively and defensively + the ork even has a gun.


Unsupported melee ork boyz are a Turn 3 tempo unit, while genestealers are comfortably a turn 2 tempo unit unsupported.

Adding a warboss to squeak them towards turn 2 tempo by granting advance+charge makes them effectively +2ppm.

Adding a warboss is auto include though. It adds 0 cost to a unit of boys. He is worth his cost in melee output and threat alone.
Only if you amp them up with some upgrades.

They’re also weaker offensively than Genestealers.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/09 21:07:14


Post by: Tyel


I'd have thought continue at 8 points and see. Its part of the general stat inflation occurring across the game. If they got this increase and Da Jump is thrown in the dumpster for instance, is it really going to be a problem?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 07:14:40


Post by: Blackie


People mention that AP-1 is a great deal on boyz, but ignore or forget that also marines got AP-1 on chainswords which is actually is an AP-2 in turns 3,4 and 5.

Do you really think that 2 boyz should equal a tactical marine in points? I think a tac is better than 2 boyz, that's why if a tac costs 18 points a boyz should be 8. A grey hunter for 19ppm also has a chainsword, +1 to hit in combat and 3A pretty much everytime, much better shooting with high BS and AP-1 in turn 2, and it's much more resilient with 2W and 3+. To be 9ppm boyz need other buffs/synergies, or a very strong codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
I'd have thought continue at 8 points and see. Its part of the general stat inflation occurring across the game. If they got this increase and Da Jump is thrown in the dumpster for instance, is it really going to be a problem?


Da jump is already meh and super easy to counter. Its best use is to jump meganobz or tankbustas in turn 1, to save 2 CPs from tellyporta or 1 from outflank. 30 boyz with 9th terrain are extremely hard to teleport in a juicy spot in the first turns, and after that there wouldn't be any boyz to teleport .


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 07:37:15


Post by: tneva82


 G00fySmiley wrote:

solid buffs but now the orks are forces to be WAY more organized then I think orks should be. T5 takes care of some of the survivability and the ap-1 from choppas means the buffing characters is much less needed (not in this list but thing like ghaz being mandatory in competitive play with boyz) I am hopign for less buffs to be available in the ork codex and that they are more in the each unit relies on its own abilities kind of book.



So you are hoping GW reverses their trend conveniently with orks?

Good luck!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Boys are probably worth 7 with their current stats. A very generous 1 point each for t and AP at a minimum puts them at 9. I could even see 10 points.



Same question I asked above, can you explain/justify those points increases when compared to Marines? Marines got +1 wound and Chain swords also gained +1AP as well as doctrines and super doctrines and I don't see anyone complaining that a Tac Marine is broken OP even though they only went up 3pts for all that.


Chainsword isn't on every tac marine. Doctrines and super doctrines came well before point increase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
People mention that AP-1 is a great deal on boyz, but ignore or forget that also marines got AP-1 on chainswords which is actually is an AP-2 in turns 3,4 and 5.

Do you really think that 2 boyz should equal a tactical marine in points? I think a tac is better than 2 boyz, that's why if a tac costs 18 points a boyz should be 8. A grey hunter for 19ppm also has a chainsword, +1 to hit in combat and 3A pretty much everytime, much better shooting with high BS and AP-1 in turn 2, and it's much more resilient with 2W and 3+. To be 9ppm boyz need other buffs/synergies, or a very strong codex.


Ah yes. The one chainsword in tacticals is so scary


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 07:48:00


Post by: Blackie


Clearly a single sword isn't much but Grey hunters have 3A each (1 base + 1 thanks to the chainsword + 1 to Shock Assault), hit on 2s unless they were already locked in combat, and have AP-1 or AP-2. It's much better than an ork boy.

Assault intercessors, blood claws or BA assault dudes are even scarier, and yet they didn't go much higher in cost, definitely not because they got better AP.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 10:42:30


Post by: Jidmah


Karol wrote:
Does the +1T going to transfer to other units ? So ork bikers are going to be t6 and mega nobz and characters are going to recive the buff too?


We don't know for bikers or koptas for sure, as nob bikers in the FW index didn't receive extra toughness, but for all the infantry models it's pretty much confirmed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
I think you could get rid of endless GT, but leave da jump (maybe nerf it by requiring the weirdboy to come with, like he used to, making it effectively a one use thing) and buff up defensive buffs with the new painboss and they'd work quite good at 9.


YES! So much yes! I'll gladly take that "nerf", just so my weird boy isn't left hanging around awkwardly after he has jumped away all the boyz around him. That just feels wrong, he totally should go with them.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 11:30:32


Post by: Aenar


8ppm is my prediction. 9ppm if they want to push Snaggas at 10ppm.

Personally I would price boyz at 9 or 10 in order to leave more room at the bottom (and hike the price of some other units, currently undercosted). Snaggas then would be 11 or 12.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 11:46:48


Post by: the_scotsman


 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I am seriously trying to be fair here. My gut actually tells me that a T5 -1 AP boy shouldn't be much less than a geensteeler.

Because they are essentially equal offensively and defensively + the ork even has a gun.


Unsupported melee ork boyz are a Turn 3 tempo unit, while genestealers are comfortably a turn 2 tempo unit unsupported.

Adding a warboss to squeak them towards turn 2 tempo by granting advance+charge makes them effectively +2ppm.

Adding a warboss is auto include though. It adds 0 cost to a unit of boys. He is worth his cost in melee output and threat alone.


80pts for the damage output equivalent of one and a quarter tactical terminators on the charge doesn't seem to me to be "worth his cost in melee output and threat alone."

If you expend your relic, warlord trait, 1cp, AND 80pts, THEN the warboss becomes worth his points in melee for absolutely sure, but you're not only expending the resources of points there.




How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 11:57:09


Post by: a_typical_hero


 the_scotsman wrote:

80pts for the damage output equivalent of one and a quarter tactical terminators on the charge doesn't seem to me to be "worth his cost in melee output and threat alone."

If you expend your relic, warlord trait, 1cp, AND 80pts, THEN the warboss becomes worth his points in melee for absolutely sure, but you're not only expending the resources of points there.

To be fair I assume that is what Xenomancers meant. Are there any beatstick HQ models which are taken regularely without WT or relics and are considered to be worth it?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 12:04:18


Post by: G00fySmiley


tneva82 wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:

solid buffs but now the orks are forces to be WAY more organized then I think orks should be. T5 takes care of some of the survivability and the ap-1 from choppas means the buffing characters is much less needed (not in this list but thing like ghaz being mandatory in competitive play with boyz) I am hopign for less buffs to be available in the ork codex and that they are more in the each unit relies on its own abilities kind of book.



So you are hoping GW reverses their trend conveniently with orks?

Good luck!



You're not wrong, but yes I am hoping at least one faction isn't hero buffing hammer. I get that GW wants HQs to matter a lot but beyond being scared of the boss i don't think the warboss or big mek inspires much beyond "go dere and Fite dat ladz". I do actually think it is thematic and works for other armies, IG has a nice chain of command, as do the imperium. Chaos has a demon pecking order etc, tua military ranks, Tyranid synapse creatures etc. Outside of Ghaz's Waagh though it doesn't seem orky to have that kind of stuff.

Also if i am being completely honest I would like to see codexes be less reliant on HQ buffs in general, let a space marine captain as an example choose a unit and that unit rerolls 1's, that would make for less mass of unit battles with a few characters buffing everything. I think it would make for a more fun and dynamic game. The current missions help a lot with this but you still get gun lines that just aim to overlap shooting buffs and keep the opponent from scoring rather than doing a ton of scoring themselves.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 12:10:39


Post by: the_scotsman


You don't see it as fluffy for the warboss to be calling the waagh?

But that's...that's how Orks work.

Big Meks don't buff gak. Neither do weirdboyz. the only other buff HQ is the painboy, because medic units that just resurrect 1-2 models per turn are fiddly and dumb when applied to a gigantic horde factions of orks, and it makes more sense to just handwave 'every 6 that dies he manages to save 1'.

orks have 1 hq that grants a fairly mild buff, and it's the one who ought to be inspiring the waagh. In every edition i've played, at least that I recall, you've needed to have a boss on the table to use the waaagh, though previously it was a 1-time buff army wide.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 12:36:26


Post by: Blackie


Sub-poll: do you think shoota boyz, which won't have any AP in combat, should/will be cheaper than slugga boyz?

They used to be 1ppm cheaper in 3rd, when choppas had some sort of AP-1 (limited any armour to a 4+ max).


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 12:58:28


Post by: G00fySmiley


 the_scotsman wrote:
You don't see it as fluffy for the warboss to be calling the waagh?

But that's...that's how Orks work.

Big Meks don't buff gak. Neither do weirdboyz. the only other buff HQ is the painboy, because medic units that just resurrect 1-2 models per turn are fiddly and dumb when applied to a gigantic horde factions of orks, and it makes more sense to just handwave 'every 6 that dies he manages to save 1'.

orks have 1 hq that grants a fairly mild buff, and it's the one who ought to be inspiring the waagh. In every edition i've played, at least that I recall, you've needed to have a boss on the table to use the waaagh, though previously it was a 1-time buff army wide.


its not buffs so much as wargear abilities i suppose, but it functions the same. You need the boyz to stay near characters and travel in a group. Competitive lists are goffs for the extra attacks, Ghaz for the extra attacks and waggh, big mek w/ KFF for the 5++, painboy for the feel no pain, and a psycher for buffs or unit reposition via dajump (i like that the psychers only do one unit)

I do think the warboss would tell them what they need to attack but its not liek they have the discipline to listen very well. Also vs the space marine captain maybe taking a moment to mentor the shooters the warboss is.. not going to do that


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 13:16:53


Post by: Voss


Except there are dozens of fluff examples where warbosses do exactly that.

Orks aren't a mindless horde that just charges everything. As crude as they are, they do have leaders for leadership reasons (decisions, discipline, taktiks, etc)


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 13:17:10


Post by: the_scotsman


 G00fySmiley wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
You don't see it as fluffy for the warboss to be calling the waagh?

But that's...that's how Orks work.

Big Meks don't buff gak. Neither do weirdboyz. the only other buff HQ is the painboy, because medic units that just resurrect 1-2 models per turn are fiddly and dumb when applied to a gigantic horde factions of orks, and it makes more sense to just handwave 'every 6 that dies he manages to save 1'.

orks have 1 hq that grants a fairly mild buff, and it's the one who ought to be inspiring the waagh. In every edition i've played, at least that I recall, you've needed to have a boss on the table to use the waaagh, though previously it was a 1-time buff army wide.


its not buffs so much as wargear abilities i suppose, but it functions the same. You need the boyz to stay near characters and travel in a group. Competitive lists are goffs for the extra attacks, Ghaz for the extra attacks and waggh, big mek w/ KFF for the 5++, painboy for the feel no pain, and a psycher for buffs or unit reposition via dajump (i like that the psychers only do one unit)

I do think the warboss would tell them what they need to attack but its not liek they have the discipline to listen very well. Also vs the space marine captain maybe taking a moment to mentor the shooters the warboss is.. not going to do that


So some kind of ability where the space marine captain would give an actual bonus in combat, while your average warboss would just maybe point and yell and get the boyz moving a little faster would fit here, fluffwise.

Got any ideas for what a kustom force field should do if not provide some kind of defensive bubble if you stay within the barrier?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 13:21:52


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I am seriously trying to be fair here. My gut actually tells me that a T5 -1 AP boy shouldn't be much less than a geensteeler.

Because they are essentially equal offensively and defensively + the ork even has a gun.


Unsupported melee ork boyz are a Turn 3 tempo unit, while genestealers are comfortably a turn 2 tempo unit unsupported.

Adding a warboss to squeak them towards turn 2 tempo by granting advance+charge makes them effectively +2ppm.

Adding a warboss is auto include though. It adds 0 cost to a unit of boys. He is worth his cost in melee output and threat alone.


Couple things.

1: You have to go all the way back to April to find a Tyranid list that finished in the top 4, and it included a grand total of 0 Genestealers. In fact, there have been 3 Nid top finishes in 2021 so far (sadly that is it :( ) of those, 0 had any genestealers. So saying a Boy shouldn't be less than a stealer isn't a solid argument since nobody is taking them. Also, atm a Genestealer is 15ppm which is about 5-7pts too much in my opinion, but I think a big portion of that cost is tied into the fact that they have insane levels of movement when tied with buffs. To point out how pathetic they actually are in CC, 4 Stealers is 60pts, 3 REGULAR intercessors are 60pts.

3 intercessors (without sgt) get 9 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 2 dead stealers
4 stealers get 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds and 2dmg for 1 dead Marine.

So right off the bat, bog standard intercessors BEAT genestealers in CC.

So yeah, Genestealers kind of suck horribly for their price.

2:
the ork even has a gun
...yes, yes he does. lets imagine you da jump 30 boyz into 12' range and fire off all 30 pistols into a Tac Marine unit, guess how much dmg you do? On average you will manage a grand total of ...wait for it...1.94dmg. So 240pts shooting managed to almost kill 18pts of a Tac Marine.

I've played in tournaments where I had 10 boyz left and have forgone the shooting from them because time was running low and I needed to spend it in CC where boyz have a chance of actually doing something. So again, arguing orkz should be as heavily priced as an over priced, never taken unit because they are similar and also have guns is not a very valid point either.

And

3:
Adding a warboss is auto include though.
I just had a tournament on saturday where I went 2 wins and 1 loss without a warboss in my list, and the list I lost to was a net list featuring Dark eldar/eldar and Ynnari and the pilot of said army is a regular GT attendee whose team mate (who he beat that day) just won a GT. Having a warboss wouldn't have helped me in the slightest bit against the army I lost to.

An argument based on Unit A requiring a price hike because if teamed with Unit B it becomes good, not great, just good; is not itself a solid argument. Look at Lootas in 8th, By themselves they were god awful, but when teamed with 4 different stratagems and a unit of Grotz or 3, they became damn good. Sadly, because of that, GW nerfed 1 of the stratagems into oblivion (mob up) and gave the Loota a 3ppm point increase, which keep in mind was about 5-6ppm too much since they were already bad to begin with and were only competitive when buffed with 6+CP a turn as well as a mob of grots to die in their place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:


Ah yes. The one chainsword in tacticals is so scary


Assault intercessors are a thing, and are conveniently, 1ppm cheaper with their -1AP chainswords and +1 attacks, which means even GW realizes that extra attacks and AP in combat isn't worth as much as losing a ranged weapon


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 13:29:39


Post by: G00fySmiley


 the_scotsman wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
You don't see it as fluffy for the warboss to be calling the waagh?

But that's...that's how Orks work.

Big Meks don't buff gak. Neither do weirdboyz. the only other buff HQ is the painboy, because medic units that just resurrect 1-2 models per turn are fiddly and dumb when applied to a gigantic horde factions of orks, and it makes more sense to just handwave 'every 6 that dies he manages to save 1'.

orks have 1 hq that grants a fairly mild buff, and it's the one who ought to be inspiring the waagh. In every edition i've played, at least that I recall, you've needed to have a boss on the table to use the waaagh, though previously it was a 1-time buff army wide.


its not buffs so much as wargear abilities i suppose, but it functions the same. You need the boyz to stay near characters and travel in a group. Competitive lists are goffs for the extra attacks, Ghaz for the extra attacks and waggh, big mek w/ KFF for the 5++, painboy for the feel no pain, and a psycher for buffs or unit reposition via dajump (i like that the psychers only do one unit)

I do think the warboss would tell them what they need to attack but its not liek they have the discipline to listen very well. Also vs the space marine captain maybe taking a moment to mentor the shooters the warboss is.. not going to do that


So some kind of ability where the space marine captain would give an actual bonus in combat, while your average warboss would just maybe point and yell and get the boyz moving a little faster would fit here, fluffwise.

Got any ideas for what a kustom force field should do if not provide some kind of defensive bubble if you stay within the barrier?


i would still say the kff gives a 5++ but that the mek chooses what unit gets it rather than "all units wholy within 9 inches" same rules as now for when they are in a vehicle. so rather than 3+ units all protected and bunched up you just kind of attach them to a unit you want protected and move with it.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 13:44:13


Post by: Xenomancers


There is a good chance that an ork list is going to be forced to take a warboss. Much like a necron list is forced to take a noble lord.

Like OMG...I have to take a warboss on bike! The horor!


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 14:01:29


Post by: Jidmah


There are plenty of examples where a Waaagh! is lead by a big mek instead of a warboss.
We also have the wartrike as official leader of speedwaaaghs.

In the 5th edition codex you needed your warboss to be alive to be able to call an army-wide, once per game Waaagh! that allowed *all* ork infantry to advance and charge. I'd love to see that coming back instead of him having an aura.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 14:11:02


Post by: SemperMortis


 G00fySmiley wrote:


i would still say the kff gives a 5++ but that the mek chooses what unit gets it rather than "all units wholy within 9 inches" same rules as now for when they are in a vehicle. so rather than 3+ units all protected and bunched up you just kind of attach them to a unit you want protected and move with it.
Than the big mek should come with a 20pt price reduction because that is about the only purpose of the damn thing especially after they nerfed the SAG into the dirt.

Even if was that cheap it still would be a rare choice to see on the board since its only purpose is to buff a single unit with a mediocre save.

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is a good chance that an ork list is going to be forced to take a warboss. Much like a necron list is forced to take a noble lord.

Like OMG...I have to take a warboss on bike! The horor!


"forced", just did fairly well in a tournament without one, wouldn't have helped me if I had one...so no, not really. But, even assuming you have to take one, how would that justify increasing the cost of boys to that of the aforementioned over priced unit "Genestealers"?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
There are plenty of examples where a Waaagh! is lead by a big mek instead of a warboss.
We also have the wartrike as official leader of speedwaaaghs.

In the 5th edition codex you needed your warboss to be alive to be able to call an army-wide, once per game Waaagh! that allowed *all* ork infantry to advance and charge. I'd love to see that coming back instead of him having an aura.


Also, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. The fact that they nerfed WAAAGH like that was annoying to say the least.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 14:23:11


Post by: G00fySmiley


SemperMortis wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:


i would still say the kff gives a 5++ but that the mek chooses what unit gets it rather than "all units wholy within 9 inches" same rules as now for when they are in a vehicle. so rather than 3+ units all protected and bunched up you just kind of attach them to a unit you want protected and move with it.
Than the big mek should come with a 20pt price reduction because that is about the only purpose of the damn thing especially after they nerfed the SAG into the dirt.

Even if was that cheap it still would be a rare choice to see on the board since its only purpose is to buff a single unit with a mediocre save.

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is a good chance that an ork list is going to be forced to take a warboss. Much like a necron list is forced to take a noble lord.

Like OMG...I have to take a warboss on bike! The horor!


"forced", just did fairly well in a tournament without one, wouldn't have helped me if I had one...so no, not really. But, even assuming you have to take one, how would that justify increasing the cost of boys to that of the aforementioned over priced unit "Genestealers"?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
There are plenty of examples where a Waaagh! is lead by a big mek instead of a warboss.
We also have the wartrike as official leader of speedwaaaghs.

In the 5th edition codex you needed your warboss to be alive to be able to call an army-wide, once per game Waaagh! that allowed *all* ork infantry to advance and charge. I'd love to see that coming back instead of him having an aura.


Also, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. The fact that they nerfed WAAAGH like that was annoying to say the least.


a kff big mek is already only 60 points. babysitting a kitted 30 man ork boyz squad (285 points) he adds 33% survivability with a 5++ so expect to save ~95 points worth of models were the whole unit to be destroyed by end of game. his stats are nto terrible in and of itself and repairing options is nice to have . if they did make the kff for one unit (wishlisting here) i think 40 poitns would be too cheap but might say 50-55 might be a reasonable drop.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 14:33:40


Post by: Daedalus81


Didn't the Big Mek catch a 20 point drop in CA?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 14:59:03


Post by: SemperMortis


 G00fySmiley wrote:


a kff big mek is already only 60 points. babysitting a kitted 30 man ork boyz squad (285 points) he adds 33% survivability with a 5++ so expect to save ~95 points worth of models were the whole unit to be destroyed by end of game. his stats are nto terrible in and of itself and repairing options is nice to have . if they did make the kff for one unit (wishlisting here) i think 40 poitns would be too cheap but might say 50-55 might be a reasonable drop.


If you nerf the KFF to only impact 1 unit (probably the big mek as well I hope?) you do not get a 33% increase in survivability on boyz. You get a situational increase of 33%, against no AP weapons its a 16.6% increase in durability, against ALL weapons on a deffskullz (one of the more popular factions right now) unit its a 16.6% increase in survivability in general.

So against no AP weapons you need to save 5 extra boyz MORE than would be saved by their normal armor just to earn its points back let alone be a buff. The big mek provides no real benefit beyond that, and 4 extra S5 attacks isn't going to do much for a mob of boyz. And what about on other models? I use a KFF Big mek to babysit my Mek Gun Parking Lot, take away the bubble and now that big mek is guarding 1 mek gun (40pts). Without the bubble ork vehicles in general need a hefty price cut because they melt when looked at by most of the games current anti-vehicle weaponry.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 15:12:43


Post by: the_scotsman


 G00fySmiley wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
You don't see it as fluffy for the warboss to be calling the waagh?

But that's...that's how Orks work.

Big Meks don't buff gak. Neither do weirdboyz. the only other buff HQ is the painboy, because medic units that just resurrect 1-2 models per turn are fiddly and dumb when applied to a gigantic horde factions of orks, and it makes more sense to just handwave 'every 6 that dies he manages to save 1'.

orks have 1 hq that grants a fairly mild buff, and it's the one who ought to be inspiring the waagh. In every edition i've played, at least that I recall, you've needed to have a boss on the table to use the waaagh, though previously it was a 1-time buff army wide.


its not buffs so much as wargear abilities i suppose, but it functions the same. You need the boyz to stay near characters and travel in a group. Competitive lists are goffs for the extra attacks, Ghaz for the extra attacks and waggh, big mek w/ KFF for the 5++, painboy for the feel no pain, and a psycher for buffs or unit reposition via dajump (i like that the psychers only do one unit)

I do think the warboss would tell them what they need to attack but its not liek they have the discipline to listen very well. Also vs the space marine captain maybe taking a moment to mentor the shooters the warboss is.. not going to do that


So some kind of ability where the space marine captain would give an actual bonus in combat, while your average warboss would just maybe point and yell and get the boyz moving a little faster would fit here, fluffwise.

Got any ideas for what a kustom force field should do if not provide some kind of defensive bubble if you stay within the barrier?


i would still say the kff gives a 5++ but that the mek chooses what unit gets it rather than "all units wholy within 9 inches" same rules as now for when they are in a vehicle. so rather than 3+ units all protected and bunched up you just kind of attach them to a unit you want protected and move with it.


I hope they don't, because the KFF being able to grant its buff to any number of units as long as they're wholly in range of the buffer is one of the few HQ buffs in the game that actually makes any intuitive sense. Because...it's a force field. It works like a bubble. If youre wholly in it, you're safe, if you're not, you don't get the save until enough models have been killed to allow you to get the save.

Picking one unit (which could be a daisy-chained unit of 30 boyz or a bunch of kanz) would be a rule that would make a lot less sense. Why can my KFF protect 30 boyz in one unit, but not 3 units of 10 boyz occupying the same area? what kind of force field is this?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 15:55:42


Post by: SemperMortis


Sadly Scotsman, GW has this wonderful tendency to price all things ork based on their potential rather than their average. My poor SAG Big mek, Apparently D6 shots on a BS5+ model that has 2D6 strength is worth 120pts now


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/10 15:58:36


Post by: warhead01


Just thinking about it and to me if they do something good with DDD and give every boy a shoota, slugga and choppa I might pay 10 ppm for that. mobs would be more dangerous and trukk boys units would be over all better.
I don't know after my last game I've been wanting to field more shoota boys to get my mobs able to put in more work than they are now. even though we can currently mix weapons in the unit I wish we could at the very least give very Ork a choppa 9 at not extra cost.) on top of what ever else they are kitted with.
I'm irritated when I get boxed in and need to reach well past what's got my otherwise noncontributing unit too far out of action.
Can't jump them because they are screened out and sluggas are out of range. And should they be able to mob up to join the fight I am out a whole other scorings unit.
Can't wait to hear what's going to happen with DDD, if anything.
And on that note do you speculate that Slugga boys and Shoota boys will be two different units with different costs?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/11 07:58:34


Post by: Blackie


 Xenomancers wrote:
There is a good chance that an ork list is going to be forced to take a warboss. Much like a necron list is forced to take a noble lord.



In 3rd edition, 3 ork codexes ago, a Warboss was actually mandatory. So it wouldn't be anything new.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/13 13:11:12


Post by: SemperMortis


Well the results have slowed down considerably, it seems most people think 8-9pts which is what I really hope it becomes (Hoping for 8) but we will see soon enough.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/13 18:48:35


Post by: Dysartes


 Blackie wrote:
Sub-poll: do you think shoota boyz, which won't have any AP in combat, should/will be cheaper than slugga boyz?

They used to be 1ppm cheaper in 3rd, when choppas had some sort of AP-1 (limited any armour to a 4+ max).


In answer to this sub-question - if the only change to shoota boyz is +1T (or +1T and the shoota becoming RF), then I could see them becoming cheaper than slugga boyz.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/14 14:03:32


Post by: SemperMortis


 Dysartes wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Sub-poll: do you think shoota boyz, which won't have any AP in combat, should/will be cheaper than slugga boyz?

They used to be 1ppm cheaper in 3rd, when choppas had some sort of AP-1 (limited any armour to a 4+ max).


In answer to this sub-question - if the only change to shoota boyz is +1T (or +1T and the shoota becoming RF), then I could see them becoming cheaper than slugga boyz.


if I had to guess, GW will be addressing the shoota as well to try to keep boys streamlined at the same price point. ATM a shoota boy gets 2 shots at S4 and 18' range no AP. Those 2 shots result in 0.77 hits, against a T4 target that is 0.38 wounds and against a 3+ save that is 0.12 dmg. In other words, for a unit of shoota boyz to average 1 kill against a Marine stat line they need 16 boyz (128pts to kill 18). Going back to the baseline of ork boys from editions past and the ork mindset in general...DAKKA DAKKA! in other words, orkz were always intended to have bad accuracy but a LOT of shots. At the moment a lot of other factions have more shots per point and at better BS than orkz do. With that in mind I wouldn't at all be surprised if Shootas get 3 shots and -1AP. Believe it or not, that actually more than DOUBLES Ork efficiency in shooting against most targets.

If Boyz get Rapid fire 2....than they might as well not receive anything considering how bad that mechanic will be with boyz in the majority of circumstances. What would be the point? 2 shots at normal range is what we have now, and the CHANCE of getting 4 shots at 9' sounds great until you realize you have to be a fool to get within 9' range of boyz and a deepstrike is >9 meaning the Rapid Fire change wouldn't be a buff of any real note...unles they also increased our range to that of the bolter (24).


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/14 14:05:01


Post by: Stevefamine


Probably 10 Points I'd assume


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/14 14:11:02


Post by: SemperMortis


 Stevefamine wrote:
Probably 10 Points I'd assume


Just to rehash this point,
10 boyz right now are 80pts. In CC They get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and against a Marine that is 3.33 dmg.
8 boyz at 10ppm would be 80pts. In CC they would get 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds and against a Marine that is 4dmg.

Durability wise:
10 boyz take 12 wounds to kill, which is 24 S4 hits.
8 Boyz (T5) take 9.7 wounds to kill which is 29.1 S4 hits.

So the question I have for you is do you think Ork boyz are actually close to being as competitive as they should be in terms of both dmg output AND durability and that is why you think a 25% increase in points over a 33% increase in price since 7th is justified?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 07:33:36


Post by: Blackie


Yeah, 10 boyz that costs exactly like 5 intercessors would be really really sad. Unless of course they get other buffs, we don't have the whole picture yet.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 09:54:11


Post by: fraser1191


I'm expecting the shoota to be S5.

Rarely hits but when it does its a decent chance of wounding


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 11:30:21


Post by: iLLiTHiD


Going with 9 - seems about right for a mob of 10, plus a special weapon or two to sit around the 100-110 mark.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 11:36:24


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I hope they are 15ppm because I am bored waiting for ork players to move their hordes. Same with Nids and IG. Yes....please, measure EACH model three times before moving it two inches! JUST LIKE THAT! Now re-measure after the move and re-adjust the ones in the back!


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 11:46:03


Post by: the_scotsman


 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm expecting the shoota to be S5.

Rarely hits but when it does its a decent chance of wounding


Nah my bet is ghazzy's weapon trait (current number but rapid fire) ison all shoota weaponry.

Heavy shoota - rapid 3
shoota - rapid 2
supa-shoota - rapid 4


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 11:55:13


Post by: G00fySmiley


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I hope they are 15ppm because I am bored waiting for ork players to move their hordes. Same with Nids and IG. Yes....please, measure EACH model three times before moving it two inches! JUST LIKE THAT! Now re-measure after the move and re-adjust the ones in the back!


that's just bad players then, a experienced player will measure the 2 corner models in a horde and just zip all the rest up between them. If the table has little enough friction (like felt ro plain wood/plastic) i just literally push the horde up to the spot they go next. moving a 30 man boy squad should take under a min for an experienced ork player unl;ess they are trying to daisy chain into an objective or something


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 11:59:49


Post by: addnid


My "120 ork goff boyz army" is very quick to play. Not much shooting, very little psychic, pushing 5-man movement trays (and "disembarking" them from the trays when they need to) is quite fast. Actually the only phase which takes a bit of time is the assault phase (too much dice rolling, hopefully next codex will reduce this).
Toughness 5 boyz will limit (hopefully) the number of dead boyz each turn, so logistics should get even better next codex

Without the investement in movement trays I wouldn't play it though


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 12:22:57


Post by: Jidmah


 G00fySmiley wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I hope they are 15ppm because I am bored waiting for ork players to move their hordes. Same with Nids and IG. Yes....please, measure EACH model three times before moving it two inches! JUST LIKE THAT! Now re-measure after the move and re-adjust the ones in the back!


that's just bad players then, a experienced player will measure the 2 corner models in a horde and just zip all the rest up between them. If the table has little enough friction (like felt ro plain wood/plastic) i just literally push the horde up to the spot they go next. moving a 30 man boy squad should take under a min for an experienced ork player unl;ess they are trying to daisy chain into an objective or something


Yeah, also movement trays exist. If someone is playing 120+ boyz without movement trays, get a chess clock and chuck it at their head.

Most ork players also don't really like playing that many models. We have so many cool things in our codex, but game balance always forces us to skew into most wounds per points as that is literally the only defense stat orks have.

I dearly miss the times of 5th edition's battlewagon bash. A beautiful and orky army just shy of 100 models. Maybe beastsnaggas make it possible again.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 12:27:14


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


You guys are making the assumption that there is no malice or intent behind slow playing as a horde army. I'm like, dude this isn't a GT. Just tell me what your intent is and I'll agree to play along.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 12:53:16


Post by: Jidmah


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You guys are making the assumption that there is no malice or intent behind slow playing as a horde army. I'm like, dude this isn't a GT. Just tell me what your intent is and I'll agree to play along.


What's the point of slow playing in non-timed events? The only purpose I see is to increase your back pain after the game from staying hunched over the game even longer than you have to anyways.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 13:02:42


Post by: Kanluwen


To irritate/annoy your opponent into calling it quits.


It might seem petty, but it is a real thing.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 13:05:36


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


What is the point of cheating in any form if it's just a game of toy soldiers. Because some people are just that way. Also it's not always cheating, sometimes the player is just super anal and wants each model to be perfectly placed.

I'm not saying it happens every game. I'm just saying I like that GW was going away from 90+ model armies, and I would think these recent buffs to the basic stats of Boys was a step in that direction. If they start costing 10+ppm then that puts a serious damp cloth on the 2nd biggest horde army/faction in the game.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 13:11:08


Post by: addnid


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What is the point of cheating in any form if it's just a game of toy soldiers. Because some people are just that way. Also it's not always cheating, sometimes the player is just super anal and wants each model to be perfectly placed.

I'm not saying it happens every game. I'm just saying I like that GW was going away from 90+ model armies, and I would think these recent buffs to the basic stats of Boys was a step in that direction. If they start costing 10+ppm then that puts a serious damp cloth on the 2nd biggest horde army/faction in the game.


This should feature in the GW "Code" they just released. Dont be "Super anal" and stop wanting ach model to be perfectly placed. The "first line" models need to be, but the rest, not so much.

DONT BE TOO ANAL, be nice, and the game will go great. I exalted because "anal" is such the perfect adjective


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 13:14:37


Post by: jaredb


I expect 9 or 10pts for boyz, 11 or 12pts for beast snagga boys.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 18:41:52


Post by: SemperMortis


 iLLiTHiD wrote:
Going with 9 - seems about right for a mob of 10, plus a special weapon or two to sit around the 100-110 mark.


ATM boyz can take 1 heavy weapon per 10 boyz. So you could take 1 rokkit for 10 boyz. Nobody really takes big shootas if they don't have to

 the_scotsman wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
I'm expecting the shoota to be S5.

Rarely hits but when it does its a decent chance of wounding


Nah my bet is ghazzy's weapon trait (current number but rapid fire) ison all shoota weaponry.

Heavy shoota - rapid 3
shoota - rapid 2
supa-shoota - rapid 4


I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 18:46:12


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 18:51:40


Post by: Xenomancers


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.

LOL - please no.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 18:54:37


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.


30 Shoota boyz atm is 60 shots, 23.3 hits, against a Marine that is 11.6 wounds and 3.8dmg. So 240pts ALMOST kills 2 Marines, or 36pts.

Lets upgrade DDD to be hits not shots.

30 shoota boyz, 60 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds 5 dmg. So now 240pts of Boyz is killing 2.5 Marines.

Lets keep the DDD Upgrade AND get all those 30 boyz somehow within 9' of their target. 120 shots, 60 hits, 30 wounds 10dmg for 5 Dead Marines. So under optimal circumstances those 240pts of boyz are just able to kill 90pts of Marines out in the open. Now, if they give shootas -1AP maybe, than the math goes to those 240pts of boyz killing 7.5 Marines, not bad, again, it will almost never ever happen but its theoretically possible, but at this point we are straying into "The SAG can ONE SHOT KNIGHTS!" territory.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 19:44:17


Post by: JNAProductions


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.

LOL - please no.
Why so against it?

The change to DDD would be great-more consistency, less rolling.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 20:07:43


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.


30 Shoota boyz atm is 60 shots, 23.3 hits, against a Marine that is 11.6 wounds and 3.8dmg. So 240pts ALMOST kills 2 Marines, or 36pts.

Lets upgrade DDD to be hits not shots.

30 shoota boyz, 60 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds 5 dmg. So now 240pts of Boyz is killing 2.5 Marines.

Lets keep the DDD Upgrade AND get all those 30 boyz somehow within 9' of their target. 120 shots, 60 hits, 30 wounds 10dmg for 5 Dead Marines. So under optimal circumstances those 240pts of boyz are just able to kill 90pts of Marines out in the open. Now, if they give shootas -1AP maybe, than the math goes to those 240pts of boyz killing 7.5 Marines, not bad, again, it will almost never ever happen but its theoretically possible, but at this point we are straying into "The SAG can ONE SHOT KNIGHTS!" territory.


This assumes shootas still don't punch and ignores what it takes to remove 30 T5 models.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 20:08:28


Post by: Void__Dragon


Eight, maybe nine points.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 20:25:06


Post by: Xenomancers


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.

LOL - please no.
Why so against it?

The change to DDD would be great-more consistency, less rolling.

At some point I made a statement that a stompa isn't that bad when someone stated it was the worst model. Got heavily Chided for that...Don't really care. I have an ork player that I play against probably about 20% of the time and he loves the Stompa - even more in this eddition.

Heres the thing - he is not the best player and I know that. I crush him on the regular. Normally allow him some breaks - won't shoot with a unit in my turn or something to give him a chance The only thing he has that can beat me is extraordinary luck. Stompa is literally a lucky mans dream. I am forced to play balls to the wall if that thing is in a game because- with More Dakka - it can literally destroy half of your army in 1 turn. It's not gonna happen most of the time but it can happen. Thing is if you turn ddd to 2 hits instead of and additional roll...you are drastically increasing this combo even more.

That is way to powerful of a free rule...plus ork weapons...are really strong - their only weakness is chance to hit. So abilities that make them hit good are just OP. It would have to come with a drastic increase in points on heavy weapons.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 20:31:32


Post by: Daedalus81


Not tesla. Just one extra hit.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 20:37:22


Post by: Castozor


I'm wondering what Ork weapons you are looking at because most aren't any more or less powerful than what other armies get. Now DDD plus their general higher volume of shots CAN be very spikey but that's very unlikely. If they are going to keep DDD as a rule better make it an extra hit just to speed up gameplay. I love Orks, have played them myself, but nothing is more tedious than the buckets of dice they roll every shooting and combat phase. Anything that cuts down on time there is greatly appreciated.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 22:21:20


Post by: Jidmah


Xeno, you were "chided" because you were talking nonesense, just like you are now.

A stompa has only three weapons worth talking about, the others are 15 shots of big shoota and a skorcha.

Which means it can at most target four different units and has a coin flip chance of being able to target a fifth one or lose the ability to shoot its best weapon for the rest of the game.

If killing four units destroys half your army, that's on you.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/15 22:23:05


Post by: JNAProductions


Also, DDD as an extra hit is the equivalent (on average) of BS4+

With the Moar Dakka stratagem it’s BS3+, only swingier.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:21:40


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:

At some point I made a statement that a stompa isn't that bad when someone stated it was the worst model. Got heavily Chided for that...Don't really care. I have an ork player that I play against probably about 20% of the time and he loves the Stompa - even more in this eddition.

Heres the thing - he is not the best player and I know that. I crush him on the regular. Normally allow him some breaks - won't shoot with a unit in my turn or something to give him a chance The only thing he has that can beat me is extraordinary luck. Stompa is literally a lucky mans dream. I am forced to play balls to the wall if that thing is in a game because- with More Dakka - it can literally destroy half of your army in 1 turn. It's not gonna happen most of the time but it can happen. Thing is if you turn ddd to 2 hits instead of and additional roll...you are drastically increasing this combo even more.

That is way to powerful of a free rule...plus ork weapons...are really strong - their only weakness is chance to hit. So abilities that make them hit good are just OP. It would have to come with a drastic increase in points on heavy weapons.


Stompa as mentioned has 3 guns worth mentioning....and really its only 2. The Supa-gatler and the DeffKannon.

Deffkannon is Heavy 3D6 S10 -4AP D6dmg Blast.
Gatler is Heavy 3D6 S7 -2AP 1dmg

With Moar Dakka and the proposed DDD rule change the DeffKannon AVERAGES 10.5 shots, 3.5 hits which become 7 because of DDD. Against a vehicle (what you would target this with) its 4.6 wounds, -4AP generally goes through whatever it hits, so 16.3dmg.

The Gatler is even worse. It averages 10.5 shots, 7 hits, and against Marine Infantry that is....4.6dmg or less than 3 dead Marines. On a 2+ it can fire a 2nd time, so it becomes 9.2dmg or 4 dead Marines and likely 1 wounded Marine. On a 5+ it can shoot again, but if you roll a 4 or less the gun dies for the rest of the game.

Also, I don't use Stompas because they are so terrible, but don't you have to use a lot of things just to get access to stratagems on a stompa?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:24:11


Post by: JNAProductions


SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

At some point I made a statement that a stompa isn't that bad when someone stated it was the worst model. Got heavily Chided for that...Don't really care. I have an ork player that I play against probably about 20% of the time and he loves the Stompa - even more in this eddition.

Heres the thing - he is not the best player and I know that. I crush him on the regular. Normally allow him some breaks - won't shoot with a unit in my turn or something to give him a chance The only thing he has that can beat me is extraordinary luck. Stompa is literally a lucky mans dream. I am forced to play balls to the wall if that thing is in a game because- with More Dakka - it can literally destroy half of your army in 1 turn. It's not gonna happen most of the time but it can happen. Thing is if you turn ddd to 2 hits instead of and additional roll...you are drastically increasing this combo even more.

That is way to powerful of a free rule...plus ork weapons...are really strong - their only weakness is chance to hit. So abilities that make them hit good are just OP. It would have to come with a drastic increase in points on heavy weapons.


Stompa as mentioned has 3 guns worth mentioning....and really its only 2. The Supa-gatler and the DeffKannon.

Deffkannon is Heavy 3D6 S10 -4AP D6dmg Blast.
Gatler is Heavy 3D6 S7 -2AP 1dmg

With Moar Dakka and the proposed DDD rule change the DeffKannon AVERAGES 10.5 shots, 3.5 hits which become 7 because of DDD. Against a vehicle (what you would target this with) its 4.6 wounds, -4AP generally goes through whatever it hits, so 16.3dmg.

The Gatler is even worse. It averages 10.5 shots, 7 hits, and against Marine Infantry that is....4.6dmg or less than 3 dead Marines. On a 2+ it can fire a 2nd time, so it becomes 9.2dmg or 4 dead Marines and likely 1 wounded Marine. On a 5+ it can shoot again, but if you roll a 4 or less the gun dies for the rest of the game.

Also, I don't use Stompas because they are so terribly, but don't you have to use a lot of things just to get access to stratagems on a stompa?
You're thinking of subfaction traits-stratagems are available even in an Auxiliary.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:25:21


Post by: Xenomancers


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not tesla. Just one extra hit.

if you roll a 6 with your proposed change a 6 is 2 hits. With more dakka a 5 and 6 would be 2 hits. Tesla a 6 is 3 hits.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:25:41


Post by: SemperMortis


 JNAProductions wrote:
You're thinking of subfaction traits-stratagems are available even in an Auxiliary.


Much appreciated, have an exalt


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:26:41


Post by: Xenomancers


SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

At some point I made a statement that a stompa isn't that bad when someone stated it was the worst model. Got heavily Chided for that...Don't really care. I have an ork player that I play against probably about 20% of the time and he loves the Stompa - even more in this eddition.

Heres the thing - he is not the best player and I know that. I crush him on the regular. Normally allow him some breaks - won't shoot with a unit in my turn or something to give him a chance The only thing he has that can beat me is extraordinary luck. Stompa is literally a lucky mans dream. I am forced to play balls to the wall if that thing is in a game because- with More Dakka - it can literally destroy half of your army in 1 turn. It's not gonna happen most of the time but it can happen. Thing is if you turn ddd to 2 hits instead of and additional roll...you are drastically increasing this combo even more.

That is way to powerful of a free rule...plus ork weapons...are really strong - their only weakness is chance to hit. So abilities that make them hit good are just OP. It would have to come with a drastic increase in points on heavy weapons.


Stompa as mentioned has 3 guns worth mentioning....and really its only 2. The Supa-gatler and the DeffKannon.

Deffkannon is Heavy 3D6 S10 -4AP D6dmg Blast.
Gatler is Heavy 3D6 S7 -2AP 1dmg

With Moar Dakka and the proposed DDD rule change the DeffKannon AVERAGES 10.5 shots, 3.5 hits which become 7 because of DDD. Against a vehicle (what you would target this with) its 4.6 wounds, -4AP generally goes through whatever it hits, so 16.3dmg.

The Gatler is even worse. It averages 10.5 shots, 7 hits, and against Marine Infantry that is....4.6dmg or less than 3 dead Marines. On a 2+ it can fire a 2nd time, so it becomes 9.2dmg or 4 dead Marines and likely 1 wounded Marine. On a 5+ it can shoot again, but if you roll a 4 or less the gun dies for the rest of the game.

Also, I don't use Stompas because they are so terrible, but don't you have to use a lot of things just to get access to stratagems on a stompa?

You are leaving out super missles and belly cannon. 2 more super guns.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:31:28


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:

You are leaving out super missles and belly cannon. 2 more super guns.


2 things.

1: Super missiles...seriously? it averages 3.5 shots for 1.16 hits. With DDD and Moar Dakka its 2.32 hits a turn. That is what you are worried about? basically a pair of S8 hits?

2: Belly Gun isn't on a Stompa. That is the Kustom Stompa which is unarguably BETTER than a Stompa but still garbage tier and by a long shot (my guess about 300-400pts over priced).

Belly Gun is 3D6 shots so as mentioned previously, 10.5 hits, its S8 -2AP and 2dmg. Against a T7 vehicle its 9.3dmg . Again, not game breaking. Especially since you just sunk basically 1/2 of your entire army into the damn thing.



How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:34:40


Post by: Jidmah


SemperMortis wrote:
Also, I don't use Stompas because they are so terrible, but don't you have to use a lot of things just to get access to stratagems on a stompa?


Stompas can't usually benefit from a culture, but they can use stratagems as usual... which means all of Moar Dakka, Ramming Speed and Patch up (which does absolutely nothing for shooting), plus the deff skulls and snakebites clan stratagems.

It's worth mentioning that there is a gimmik army which uses the evil suns psychic power to super-charge the FW kustom stompa if they are lucky enough, but that isn't what xeno was talking about.

In any case, do we really need to proof that the stompa sucks to the very same person that claims that he is getting curb-stomped by kanz and squig buggies?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:35:58


Post by: JNAProductions


 Xenomancers wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

At some point I made a statement that a stompa isn't that bad when someone stated it was the worst model. Got heavily Chided for that...Don't really care. I have an ork player that I play against probably about 20% of the time and he loves the Stompa - even more in this eddition.

Heres the thing - he is not the best player and I know that. I crush him on the regular. Normally allow him some breaks - won't shoot with a unit in my turn or something to give him a chance The only thing he has that can beat me is extraordinary luck. Stompa is literally a lucky mans dream. I am forced to play balls to the wall if that thing is in a game because- with More Dakka - it can literally destroy half of your army in 1 turn. It's not gonna happen most of the time but it can happen. Thing is if you turn ddd to 2 hits instead of and additional roll...you are drastically increasing this combo even more.

That is way to powerful of a free rule...plus ork weapons...are really strong - their only weakness is chance to hit. So abilities that make them hit good are just OP. It would have to come with a drastic increase in points on heavy weapons.


Stompa as mentioned has 3 guns worth mentioning....and really its only 2. The Supa-gatler and the DeffKannon.

Deffkannon is Heavy 3D6 S10 -4AP D6dmg Blast.
Gatler is Heavy 3D6 S7 -2AP 1dmg

With Moar Dakka and the proposed DDD rule change the DeffKannon AVERAGES 10.5 shots, 3.5 hits which become 7 because of DDD. Against a vehicle (what you would target this with) its 4.6 wounds, -4AP generally goes through whatever it hits, so 16.3dmg.

The Gatler is even worse. It averages 10.5 shots, 7 hits, and against Marine Infantry that is....4.6dmg or less than 3 dead Marines. On a 2+ it can fire a 2nd time, so it becomes 9.2dmg or 4 dead Marines and likely 1 wounded Marine. On a 5+ it can shoot again, but if you roll a 4 or less the gun dies for the rest of the game.

Also, I don't use Stompas because they are so terrible, but don't you have to use a lot of things just to get access to stratagems on a stompa?

You are leaving out super missles and belly cannon. 2 more super guns.
The Belly Gun is on the Kustom Stompa, not the regular Stompa.

But sure-850 point Kustom Stompa. Shooting against MEQ.

Belly Gun 3d6 Blast at S8 AP-2 D2
21/2 shots
7 hits
35/6 wounds
35/9 unsaved
70/9 damage or about 3-4 dead Marines.

Deffkannon 3d6 Blast S10 AP-4 Dd6
21/2 shots
7 hits
35/6 wounds
385/36 damage, or about 5 dead Marines

Gaze Of Mork 3 S12 AP-4 D6
3 shots
2 hits
5/3 wounds
10/3 damage, or 1-2 dead Marines

Kustom Supa_Rokkits d6 Blast S8 AP-3 Dd6
7/2 shots
7/3 hits
35/18 wounds
175/108 unsaved
1,925/648 damage or 1-2 dead Marines

Supa-Gatler 3d6 S7 AP-2 D1, fires twice we'll assume
21/2 shots
7 hits
14/3 wounds
28/9 failed saves
28/9 damage or 1-2 dead Marines

Altogether, that is maybe three minimum squads dead. If they split fire well. Against basic MEQ.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:36:36


Post by: Xenomancers


SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

At some point I made a statement that a stompa isn't that bad when someone stated it was the worst model. Got heavily Chided for that...Don't really care. I have an ork player that I play against probably about 20% of the time and he loves the Stompa - even more in this eddition.

Heres the thing - he is not the best player and I know that. I crush him on the regular. Normally allow him some breaks - won't shoot with a unit in my turn or something to give him a chance The only thing he has that can beat me is extraordinary luck. Stompa is literally a lucky mans dream. I am forced to play balls to the wall if that thing is in a game because- with More Dakka - it can literally destroy half of your army in 1 turn. It's not gonna happen most of the time but it can happen. Thing is if you turn ddd to 2 hits instead of and additional roll...you are drastically increasing this combo even more.

That is way to powerful of a free rule...plus ork weapons...are really strong - their only weakness is chance to hit. So abilities that make them hit good are just OP. It would have to come with a drastic increase in points on heavy weapons.


Stompa as mentioned has 3 guns worth mentioning....and really its only 2. The Supa-gatler and the DeffKannon.

Deffkannon is Heavy 3D6 S10 -4AP D6dmg Blast.
Gatler is Heavy 3D6 S7 -2AP 1dmg

With Moar Dakka and the proposed DDD rule change the DeffKannon AVERAGES 10.5 shots, 3.5 hits which become 7 because of DDD. Against a vehicle (what you would target this with) its 4.6 wounds, -4AP generally goes through whatever it hits, so 16.3dmg.

The Gatler is even worse. It averages 10.5 shots, 7 hits, and against Marine Infantry that is....4.6dmg or less than 3 dead Marines. On a 2+ it can fire a 2nd time, so it becomes 9.2dmg or 4 dead Marines and likely 1 wounded Marine. On a 5+ it can shoot again, but if you roll a 4 or less the gun dies for the rest of the game.

Also, I don't use Stompas because they are so terrible, but don't you have to use a lot of things just to get access to stratagems on a stompa?

There you go with the "average" results on lightning damage.

This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:44:26


Post by: Tyel


I think the issue is that yes, the Stompa can theoretically destroy half your army in a turn. The odds of this happening are however incredibly slim. Its much more common to fire everything, roll a bit under par, find you've failed to kill 150 points worth of stuff, and be left thinking this was awful for 900 points.

Especially as your opponent then either nukes the Stompa from orbit or mops up the rest of your army, depending on which is easier with their list.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:46:48


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:

There you go with the "average" results on lightning damage.

This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


WOW! LOL. Your own math you showed that it can kill 3 min sized units of Tac or primaris Marines. Assuming it killed all 15 members of all 3 squads without any overkill etc....wow. Congrats your 850pt unit managed to kill about 300pts of throwaway infantry. Game breaking. Only had to take a Superheavy aux detachment, 850pts and some CP. Of course, all of that is assuming you the Marine player doesn't use any skills or tactics of his own like I don't know....transhuman, or god forbid if he has one of those super rare invulnerable saves that don't exist in Marine lists....wait.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:48:33


Post by: Jidmah


 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.



How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 14:51:55


Post by: JNAProductions


I mean, I’ve show in another thread that an Intercessor unit (not even an Assault one) can, ON AVERAGE, kill a knight in melee.

Should we balance around that?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 15:09:48


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


 JNAProductions wrote:
I mean, I’ve show in another thread that an Intercessor unit (not even an Assault one) can, ON AVERAGE, kill a knight in melee.

Should we balance around that?


Yes. As a Custodes can't do that, I say a Custodes should cost LESS than a Intercessor. Thanks man!


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 15:20:46


Post by: The Red Hobbit


GW tends to start high then adjust points lower. So I think Boyz will start 10-11 then shift down to 9-10 over time.

On the brightside if they start off at 10-11ppm GW may be comfortable enough to improve Shoota Boyz and make them worthwhile.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 15:56:50


Post by: Mr. Grey


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
GW tends to start high then adjust points lower. So I think Boyz will start 10-11 then shift down to 9-10 over time.

On the brightside if they start off at 10-11ppm GW may be comfortable enough to improve Shoota Boyz and make them worthwhile.


That strategy hasn't seemed to apply to the Stompa so far, which since the beginning of 8th, even with a number of Chapter Approveds, is probably still 300+ points too expensive for what you get out of it.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 16:41:09


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


If they drop the Stompa by 300+ points they better make the Baneblade cost 250 points base.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 18:22:22


Post by: Xenomancers


 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.


Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 18:38:56


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.


Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.


honestly that is the issue of a lot of ork shootign its swingy, supe reffective or super not. Also a lot of thing they do to even thigns out don't really work.

as an example take the loota (rip has not seen a table this edition) for 20 points its a normal boy with a deffgun so seemingly the deffgun is worth 12 points, on a T4 body with a 6+ save. that gun is D3 shots which ok might be great but rather than D3 per model in the unit to maybe even things out you roll on dice and if you have 15 lootas in the squad its the difference between 15, 30, or 45 shots. Orks used to be BS4 but for some reason it was decided they should be worse at shooting. i would prefer just for example 2 flat shots out of a loota gun and a bs4 than what they currently have (even if it meant losing ddd, cause consistency would beat swingy)


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 18:53:11


Post by: Voss


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.


Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.


Definitely not 'common sense.' More just 'bad at statistics'


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 18:55:38


Post by: Xenomancers


 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.


Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.


honestly that is the issue of a lot of ork shootign its swingy, supe reffective or super not. Also a lot of thing they do to even thigns out don't really work.

as an example take the loota (rip has not seen a table this edition) for 20 points its a normal boy with a deffgun so seemingly the deffgun is worth 12 points, on a T4 body with a 6+ save. that gun is D3 shots which ok might be great but rather than D3 per model in the unit to maybe even things out you roll on dice and if you have 15 lootas in the squad its the difference between 15, 30, or 45 shots. Orks used to be BS4 but for some reason it was decided they should be worse at shooting. i would prefer just for example 2 flat shots out of a loota gun and a bs4 than what they currently have (even if it meant losing ddd, cause consistency would beat swingy)

That is true. That is why I call it lightning damage. In diablo there were several kinds of damage - lightning damage was the most swingy with a damage range of like 1-49 where fire damage was a consistent 24 or so (just a general idea) - which is best? Well if you both sit back and take 100 shots there wont be much difference but the lightning damage is going to threshhold a mob sometimes in a single shot or 2 but the fire damage takes a minimum of 3 hits to kill a mob. So...the lightning is clearly superior as you rarely have time to sit still and shoot more than 2-3 shots anyways. 40k is similar in this sense. Since Alpha strike is really all that matters - large damage results is all that matters.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 18:59:41


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


(Totally off topic Diablo nerd rant) {Pushes up glasses} Diablo may have been a bad example:

They included resistences in Diablo, but there were also unseen Vulnerabilities. It felt like a type of spell did more damage, because it literally was. The Lightning wall for instance didn't just do 1-49, it did 1-49x2 to many creatures, also it hit about 4-6 times per second. The fireball was just a 1 time cast, 1 time damage. It's why Armaeggon and the Spirit spells were basically worthless in Endgame Diablo.
/end nerd rant



How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 19:04:20


Post by: SemperMortis


 Mr. Grey wrote:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
GW tends to start high then adjust points lower. So I think Boyz will start 10-11 then shift down to 9-10 over time.

On the brightside if they start off at 10-11ppm GW may be comfortable enough to improve Shoota Boyz and make them worthwhile.


That strategy hasn't seemed to apply to the Stompa so far, which since the beginning of 8th, even with a number of Chapter Approveds, is probably still 300+ points too expensive for what you get out of it.


The Stompa has been horribly priced since...forever I believe. The only time they were considered playable was a brief period in 7th edition where the FW version got a typo and was basically half the price. Think about that for a second, it was half the price and it was still barely competitive. Imagine any other faction getting a Lord of War, Super Heavy Titan for HALF their current price. The game would be so ridiculously unfair as to be all but unplayable. For orkz, it was a flash in the pan of the Stompa being playable, no major events were won though.

GW has a tendency not to correctly price ork things, and usually when they guess, its always on the high end, and they RARELY correctly price it after that. Look at the Squigbuggy. Unarguably the worst of the new buggies, it was also priced the most heavily at 140pts when it was first released. And here we sit, years later and its gotten 30ppm cheaper, that is a 21% price cut, should be good now right? Nope, still hot garbage. And the playable buggies have only gotten worse as more rules/codexs and prices come out.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.


"Its got what orkz crave, it's got electrolytes".

Clearly the answer isn't to make orks better at shooting because than they might be impactful. No, the answer is to let them be god awful so Xeno can beat them occasionally.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
honestly that is the issue of a lot of ork shooting its swingy, super effective or super not. Also a lot of thing they do to even things out don't really work.

as an example take the loota (RIP has not seen a table this edition) for 20 points its a normal boy with a deffgun so seemingly the deffgun is worth 12 points, on a T4 body with a 6+ save. that gun is D3 shots which ok might be great but rather than D3 per model in the unit to maybe even things out you roll on dice and if you have 15 lootas in the squad its the difference between 15, 30, or 45 shots. Orks used to be BS4 but for some reason it was decided they should be worse at shooting. i would prefer just for example 2 flat shots out of a loota gun and a bs4 than what they currently have (even if it meant losing ddd, cause consistency would beat swingy)


Lets look at lootas. They got beaten with the nerf bat because people like Xenomancer complained about how good they were. Lootas haven't been good since 7th and even then it was...meh. What was good about lootas was being able to use the stratagem Mob up for 1CP, to get 25 lootas into 1 unit, than you spend 2CP to give them Moar dakka and than 3 CP to give them shoot twice, also 1CP to reroll number of shots to try for at least 2 shots on the 1/3rd chance you rolled a 1-2. Also, you needed to spend another 1 CP and buy 30-60 grots to babysit the Lootas. So 25 Lootas, 30-60 grots, and 8CP a turn and 6 CP a turn after that. That made them competitive, not game breaking great, but definitely high end competitive. That all ended up averaging 50 shots x 2 a turn at BS 4 (reroll 1s and exploding 5s and 6s ends up with right around BS4). Total cost was around 630pts.

Now because those people complained the lootas went up in price 2ppm, they lost the ability to mob up and guess what that did? effectively killed the loota and in turn, the Bad Moonz kulture. Orkz don't really have a unit worth shooting twice with for 3CP. Hell, shooting again twice for 1 CP with most of our units would be a questionable call

How about the SAG? Players complained about that because the theoretical dmg for it was astronomical. 1D6 shots at 2D6 strength. Unit was good for a change but was it game breaking at 60ppm? No. At 1D6 shots you averaged 1.3 hits a turn. S2D6 averaged 7, dmg averaged 3.5 Apparently this was so amazing though that GW had to increase the price to 120ppm. How many SAG Big Mekz have you seen since that happened?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 19:07:51


Post by: Xenomancers


Voss wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.


Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.


Definitely not 'common sense.' More just 'bad at statistics'

When you are being wrong...you should probably not insult people. This is brain dead common sense stuff.

and while the average to get at least 1 hit on 2 shots on 5's is 56% and a single shot htting on 3's is 66%. You get the idea. The chance of getting 2 hits on the single shot gun hitting on 3's is 0%.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 19:08:45


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:

That is true. That is why I call it lightning damage. In diablo there were several kinds of damage - lightning damage was the most swingy with a damage range of like 1-49 where fire damage was a consistent 24 or so (just a general idea) - which is best? Well if you both sit back and take 100 shots there wont be much difference but the lightning damage is going to threshhold a mob sometimes in a single shot or 2 but the fire damage takes a minimum of 3 hits to kill a mob. So...the lightning is clearly superior as you rarely have time to sit still and shoot more than 2-3 shots anyways. 40k is similar in this sense. Since Alpha strike is really all that matters - large damage results is all that matters.


So your complaint with Orkz now is that they are swingy, and occasionally they get good swingy dmg and you feel this shouldn't happen. Cool. Give us reliable dmg like Marines or Cronz get. Whats that? You don't like the idea of Orkz being reliable. Ah, so you basically just want orkz to suck at shooting. roger.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 19:11:21


Post by: Xenomancers


SemperMortis wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
GW tends to start high then adjust points lower. So I think Boyz will start 10-11 then shift down to 9-10 over time.

On the brightside if they start off at 10-11ppm GW may be comfortable enough to improve Shoota Boyz and make them worthwhile.


That strategy hasn't seemed to apply to the Stompa so far, which since the beginning of 8th, even with a number of Chapter Approveds, is probably still 300+ points too expensive for what you get out of it.


The Stompa has been horribly priced since...forever I believe. The only time they were considered playable was a brief period in 7th edition where the FW version got a typo and was basically half the price. Think about that for a second, it was half the price and it was still barely competitive. Imagine any other faction getting a Lord of War, Super Heavy Titan for HALF their current price. The game would be so ridiculously unfair as to be all but unplayable. For orkz, it was a flash in the pan of the Stompa being playable, no major events were won though.

GW has a tendency not to correctly price ork things, and usually when they guess, its always on the high end, and they RARELY correctly price it after that. Look at the Squigbuggy. Unarguably the worst of the new buggies, it was also priced the most heavily at 140pts when it was first released. And here we sit, years later and its gotten 30ppm cheaper, that is a 21% price cut, should be good now right? Nope, still hot garbage. And the playable buggies have only gotten worse as more rules/codexs and prices come out.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.


"Its got what orkz crave, it's got electrolytes".

Clearly the answer isn't to make orks better at shooting because than they might be impactful. No, the answer is to let them be god awful so Xeno can beat them occasionally.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
honestly that is the issue of a lot of ork shooting its swingy, super effective or super not. Also a lot of thing they do to even things out don't really work.

as an example take the loota (RIP has not seen a table this edition) for 20 points its a normal boy with a deffgun so seemingly the deffgun is worth 12 points, on a T4 body with a 6+ save. that gun is D3 shots which ok might be great but rather than D3 per model in the unit to maybe even things out you roll on dice and if you have 15 lootas in the squad its the difference between 15, 30, or 45 shots. Orks used to be BS4 but for some reason it was decided they should be worse at shooting. i would prefer just for example 2 flat shots out of a loota gun and a bs4 than what they currently have (even if it meant losing ddd, cause consistency would beat swingy)


Lets look at lootas. They got beaten with the nerf bat because people like Xenomancer complained about how good they were. Lootas haven't been good since 7th and even then it was...meh. What was good about lootas was being able to use the stratagem Mob up for 1CP, to get 25 lootas into 1 unit, than you spend 2CP to give them Moar dakka and than 3 CP to give them shoot twice, also 1CP to reroll number of shots to try for at least 2 shots on the 1/3rd chance you rolled a 1-2. Also, you needed to spend another 1 CP and buy 30-60 grots to babysit the Lootas. So 25 Lootas, 30-60 grots, and 8CP a turn and 6 CP a turn after that. That made them competitive, not game breaking great, but definitely high end competitive. That all ended up averaging 50 shots x 2 a turn at BS 4 (reroll 1s and exploding 5s and 6s ends up with right around BS4). Total cost was around 630pts.

Now because those people complained the lootas went up in price 2ppm, they lost the ability to mob up and guess what that did? effectively killed the loota and in turn, the Bad Moonz kulture. Orkz don't really have a unit worth shooting twice with for 3CP. Hell, shooting again twice for 1 CP with most of our units would be a questionable call

How about the SAG? Players complained about that because the theoretical dmg for it was astronomical. 1D6 shots at 2D6 strength. Unit was good for a change but was it game breaking at 60ppm? No. At 1D6 shots you averaged 1.3 hits a turn. S2D6 averaged 7, dmg averaged 3.5 Apparently this was so amazing though that GW had to increase the price to 120ppm. How many SAG Big Mekz have you seen since that happened?

SAG was just about as bad of an idea for a weapon as t5 orks are for this game. Just FYI - T4 orks do just fine. Orks currently have a higher win rate than marines in competitive 40k.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 19:21:42


Post by: Karol


SemperMortis 798896 11151129 wrote:

So your complaint with Orkz now is that they are swingy, and occasionally they get good swingy dmg and you feel this shouldn't happen. Cool. Give us reliable dmg like Marines or Cronz get. Whats that? You don't like the idea of Orkz being reliable. Ah, so you basically just want orkz to suck at shooting. roger.


But that would make no sense. even with swingy damage orks have a higher win rate then most space marine armies throught out 9th ed.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 19:25:49


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:
[
SAG was just about as bad of an idea for a weapon as t5 orks are for this game. Just FYI - T4 orks do just fine. Orks currently have a higher win rate than marines in competitive 40k.


Well, i'm super happy that the Marine/necron player who doesn't play orkz thinks a weapon that has been around longer than his Cronz army was a bad idea and that Orkz at T4 are doing just fine because of an irrelevant statistic like W/L in tournaments. Hey Xeno, did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, the reason SM's aren't running away with tournaments more than they are is because literally EVERYONE at tournaments builds there list to kill Marines?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
SemperMortis 798896 11151129 wrote:

So your complaint with Orkz now is that they are swingy, and occasionally they get good swingy dmg and you feel this shouldn't happen. Cool. Give us reliable dmg like Marines or Cronz get. Whats that? You don't like the idea of Orkz being reliable. Ah, so you basically just want orkz to suck at shooting. roger.


But that would make no sense. even with swingy damage orks have a higher win rate then most space marine armies throught out 9th ed.


Same thing I said to Xeno. How well do you think orkz would do if everyone tailored their lists to kill orkz like they do Space Marines?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 19:41:33


Post by: Karol


Same thing I said to Xeno. How well do you think orkz would do if everyone tailored their lists to kill orkz like they do Space Marines?

I don't understand the reasoning behind the question. Orks are not popular enough for that to happen. And everyone was trying to meta against DE, all it achived was a slight drop in win rate, it is still the top army win rate wise out there. And that is with people having more then enough time to adjust to the army.

Hey Xeno, did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, the reason SM's aren't running away with tournaments more than they are is because literally EVERYONE at tournaments builds there list to kill Marines?

But first it is not just tournaments, and second at tournaments if someone goes full anti marine meta, then they better be friends with the judges or the person who does the match ups, so they get those 2 DA games in match 3-5, because if they run in to SoB, DE or orks they are going to be very sad about their results.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 19:52:08


Post by: G00fySmiley


Karol wrote:
Same thing I said to Xeno. How well do you think orkz would do if everyone tailored their lists to kill orkz like they do Space Marines?

I don't understand the reasoning behind the question. Orks are not popular enough for that to happen. And everyone was trying to meta against DE, all it achived was a slight drop in win rate, it is still the top army win rate wise out there. And that is with people having more then enough time to adjust to the army.

Hey Xeno, did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, the reason SM's aren't running away with tournaments more than they are is because literally EVERYONE at tournaments builds there list to kill Marines?

But first it is not just tournaments, and second at tournaments if someone goes full anti marine meta, then they better be friends with the judges or the person who does the match ups, so they get those 2 DA games in match 3-5, because if they run in to SoB, DE or orks they are going to be very sad about their results.


honestly this is one of the things warmachine got very very right. you should produce your main army list but also ahve a sidebaord so that you can choose to adjust based on what you are facing. the core of the army mostly stays the same but you get a few things to play around with to adjust. ideally it'd just be "ok i am playing against space marines (not having seen the other's list), i'll sub in squad x with lower ap weapons" not huge amounts of points but a few squads for most armies to swap. if that same player is facing dark eldar maybe higher volume of shots less dependant on ap is the way to go.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 19:56:22


Post by: Xenomancers


 G00fySmiley wrote:
Karol wrote:
Same thing I said to Xeno. How well do you think orkz would do if everyone tailored their lists to kill orkz like they do Space Marines?

I don't understand the reasoning behind the question. Orks are not popular enough for that to happen. And everyone was trying to meta against DE, all it achived was a slight drop in win rate, it is still the top army win rate wise out there. And that is with people having more then enough time to adjust to the army.

Hey Xeno, did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, the reason SM's aren't running away with tournaments more than they are is because literally EVERYONE at tournaments builds there list to kill Marines?

But first it is not just tournaments, and second at tournaments if someone goes full anti marine meta, then they better be friends with the judges or the person who does the match ups, so they get those 2 DA games in match 3-5, because if they run in to SoB, DE or orks they are going to be very sad about their results.


honestly this is one of the things warmachine got very very right. you should produce your main army list but also ahve a sidebaord so that you can choose to adjust based on what you are facing. the core of the army mostly stays the same but you get a few things to play around with to adjust. ideally it'd just be "ok i am playing against space marines (not having seen the other's list), i'll sub in squad x with lower ap weapons" not huge amounts of points but a few squads for most armies to swap. if that same player is facing dark eldar maybe higher volume of shots less dependant on ap is the way to go.

Absolutely agree. Units with weapon options should be able to chose them at the very minimum pregame.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 20:00:39


Post by: JNAProductions


Spoiler:
  Xenomancers wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
Karol wrote:
Same thing I said to Xeno. How well do you think orkz would do if everyone tailored their lists to kill orkz like they do Space Marines?

I don't understand the reasoning behind the question. Orks are not popular enough for that to happen. And everyone was trying to meta against DE, all it achived was a slight drop in win rate, it is still the top army win rate wise out there. And that is with people having more then enough time to adjust to the army.

Hey Xeno, did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, the reason SM's aren't running away with tournaments more than they are is because literally EVERYONE at tournaments builds there list to kill Marines?

But first it is not just tournaments, and second at tournaments if someone goes full anti marine meta, then they better be friends with the judges or the person who does the match ups, so they get those 2 DA games in match 3-5, because if they run in to SoB, DE or orks they are going to be very sad about their results.


honestly this is one of the things warmachine got very very right. you should produce your main army list but also ahve a sidebaord so that you can choose to adjust based on what you are facing. the core of the army mostly stays the same but you get a few things to play around with to adjust. ideally it'd just be "ok i am playing against space marines (not having seen the other's list), i'll sub in squad x with lower ap weapons" not huge amounts of points but a few squads for most armies to swap. if that same player is facing dark eldar maybe higher volume of shots less dependant on ap is the way to go.

Absolutely agree. Units with weapon options should be able to chose them at the very minimum pregame.
Hm, wonder which army that would advantage.

Could it be Marines, who have lots of options in almost every unit?
Or could it be something like Daemons, who have virtually none?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 20:01:16


Post by: Xenomancers


SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
[
SAG was just about as bad of an idea for a weapon as t5 orks are for this game. Just FYI - T4 orks do just fine. Orks currently have a higher win rate than marines in competitive 40k.


Well, i'm super happy that the Marine/necron player who doesn't play orkz thinks a weapon that has been around longer than his Cronz army was a bad idea and that Orkz at T4 are doing just fine because of an irrelevant statistic like W/L in tournaments. Hey Xeno, did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, the reason SM's aren't running away with tournaments more than they are is because literally EVERYONE at tournaments builds there list to kill Marines?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
SemperMortis 798896 11151129 wrote:

So your complaint with Orkz now is that they are swingy, and occasionally they get good swingy dmg and you feel this shouldn't happen. Cool. Give us reliable dmg like Marines or Cronz get. Whats that? You don't like the idea of Orkz being reliable. Ah, so you basically just want orkz to suck at shooting. roger.


But that would make no sense. even with swingy damage orks have a higher win rate then most space marine armies throught out 9th ed.


Same thing I said to Xeno. How well do you think orkz would do if everyone tailored their lists to kill orkz like they do Space Marines?

No one is tailoring to kill marines lol. People bring the most efficent weapon a platform has vs a huge list of possible targets.
Know what else is on that list? Custodians/ Harliquens/ Dark Eldar / Deathgaurd....Show me the weapon profile that beats all of those? It doesn't exist. What it comes down to is - more shots is almost always the better solution - therefore...orks are already being "tailored against".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Spoiler:
  Xenomancers wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
Karol wrote:
Same thing I said to Xeno. How well do you think orkz would do if everyone tailored their lists to kill orkz like they do Space Marines?

I don't understand the reasoning behind the question. Orks are not popular enough for that to happen. And everyone was trying to meta against DE, all it achived was a slight drop in win rate, it is still the top army win rate wise out there. And that is with people having more then enough time to adjust to the army.

Hey Xeno, did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, the reason SM's aren't running away with tournaments more than they are is because literally EVERYONE at tournaments builds there list to kill Marines?

But first it is not just tournaments, and second at tournaments if someone goes full anti marine meta, then they better be friends with the judges or the person who does the match ups, so they get those 2 DA games in match 3-5, because if they run in to SoB, DE or orks they are going to be very sad about their results.


honestly this is one of the things warmachine got very very right. you should produce your main army list but also ahve a sidebaord so that you can choose to adjust based on what you are facing. the core of the army mostly stays the same but you get a few things to play around with to adjust. ideally it'd just be "ok i am playing against space marines (not having seen the other's list), i'll sub in squad x with lower ap weapons" not huge amounts of points but a few squads for most armies to swap. if that same player is facing dark eldar maybe higher volume of shots less dependant on ap is the way to go.

Absolutely agree. Units with weapon options should be able to chose them at the very minimum pregame.
Hm, wonder which army that would advantage.

Could it be Marines, who have lots of options in almost every unit?
Or could it be something like Daemons, who have virtually none?

Daemons can be summoned - it's the same thing except better than having weapon options.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 20:06:09


Post by: JNAProductions


Have you ever seen anyone use summoning well, Xeno?
I doubt it-because it’s not good. It’s not really versatile.

Whereas a Devastator squad swapping from Lascannons against tanks to Heavy Bolters against hordes doubles its power, more or less.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 20:08:43


Post by: Xenomancers


 JNAProductions wrote:
Have you ever seen anyone use summoning well, Xeno?
I doubt it-because it’s not good. It’s not really versatile.

Whereas a Devastator squad swapping from Lascannons against tanks to Heavy Bolters against hordes doubles its power, more or less.

Why does it suck so much? Because it can be denied?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/16 21:59:19


Post by: JNAProductions


 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Have you ever seen anyone use summoning well, Xeno?
I doubt it-because it’s not good. It’s not really versatile.

Whereas a Devastator squad swapping from Lascannons against tanks to Heavy Bolters against hordes doubles its power, more or less.

Why does it suck so much? Because it can be denied?
No. it can’t be denied-but it can fail on its own.
It requires a character to not move at all.
It’s limited to what they’re marked as, so only Belakor and unmarked CSM can summon any faction of demons.
They have to appear near the (non-moving, remember) character, and away from enemy models.
They get no bonuses or strats.

And most daemon units are pretty similar to one another anyway.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/17 01:56:13


Post by: Jidmah


 Xenomancers wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.


Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.


Definitely not 'common sense.' More just 'bad at statistics'

When you are being wrong...you should probably not insult people. This is brain dead common sense stuff.

and while the average to get at least 1 hit on 2 shots on 5's is 56% and a single shot htting on 3's is 66%. You get the idea. The chance of getting 2 hits on the single shot gun hitting on 3's is 0%.


He is right though. The "common sense" behind dice rolls is called statistics and not a matter of opinion. It's also not "brain dead" stuff at all, especially since you clearly fail to understand how it works. Go read up what variance is before you keep making a fool out of yourself.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/17 02:23:18


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:

No one is tailoring to kill marines lol. People bring the most efficent weapon a platform has vs a huge list of possible targets.
Know what else is on that list? Custodians/ Harliquens/ Dark Eldar / Deathgaurd....Show me the weapon profile that beats all of those? It doesn't exist. What it comes down to is - more shots is almost always the better solution - therefore...orks are already being "tailored against".

Karol wrote:
Same thing I said to Xeno. How well do you think orkz would do if everyone tailored their lists to kill orkz like they do Space Marines?

I don't understand the reasoning behind the question. Orks are not popular enough for that to happen. And everyone was trying to meta against DE, all it achived was a slight drop in win rate, it is still the top army win rate wise out there. And that is with people having more then enough time to adjust to the army.

But first it is not just tournaments, and second at tournaments if someone goes full anti marine meta, then they better be friends with the judges or the person who does the match ups, so they get those 2 DA games in match 3-5, because if they run in to SoB, DE or orks they are going to be very sad about their results.


Nobody is tailoring against Marines, and they are instead tailoring against Harlies, DE and Deathguard....k. Lets see

Last 40kstats tournament had double DE players winning 1st and 2nd (this is pre-nerf) I guess they just decided to bring 20pts of upgrades on a 40pt unit that has -2AP to kill those pesky 6+ save orkz and equally pesky fellow DE players with their 6+ save on their troops. Or...stay with me here...is it possibly a response to 3+ power armor spam? Meh, we will never know.

Maybe the other units they took were more general purpose, designed to kill lightly armored targets with 1 wound. Like say...those Incubi...with their -3AP 2dmg klaives...weird, that seems like the best weapon to target multi-wound power armored targets with...huh must be a coincidence...i'm sure the rest of the list isn't biased towards heavy armor and multi dmg....like these Raiders with their splinter...oh nope, those are Dark Lances with D3+3 dmg and -4AP. Not a great unit to target basically any faction except armor and elite infantry.


What about the other DE list, he didn't build it to target elite infantry right? ohh he did?...well poop.

What about the 3rd place SOB list?

Wow....thats a lot of Repentia with -3 AP D2 weapons...like 350pts worth....not exactly great for slaying hordes but really good at killing.....Marines.
Some seraphim...those can have flamers and be devastating against hordes! And they have Melta pistols...weird.
Wow that is a lot of retributor squads as well 6 Multi-meltas and 3 Heavy Flamers not exactly ideal for killing orkz or nids or Guardsmen but really good at elite infantry and vehicles.

I could literally go on all night and show you how most if not all lists that finish in the top 4 are going to be bringing significantly more anti-elite and anti-vehicle weapons than anti-horde or light/medium infantry weapons. But I doubt that would matter since you have this wondrous ability to be blissfully unaware of any information that deviates from your opinion. I could also state how I've played against GT tournament winners and their teams in major tournaments and they've flat out told me that they absolutely build their lists to beat Marine and Marine type lists, but again, it wouldn't matter. The main point here is that you are 100% wrong. If you go to a tournament right now and you aren't built to deal with Marines as one of your top priorities...if not THE top priority, well, you won't be advancing to the finals.

BTW, side note, in that GT I mentioned, about 16.6% of attendees were guaranteed Space Marine with another 2 players playing Custodes and 6 other lists only listed as Imperium (Excluding #3). The Armed forces day GT in Illinois saw 40% of all lists being Marines, Utahs Gamer Alliance GT was 28% Marines and ALSO the recent 256 person event in Atlantic city saw just shy of 25% of all lists being Space Marine not counting grey knights, custodes or Chaos of any sort.

So why would you list build against Marines? Because you are likely to play them in at least 1 game at major events And, if you includes Custodes, Grey Knights, Chaos Marines and SoB or to put it another way, Power Armor armies, you will find that the majority of your games in a tournament will be against them.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/17 07:22:06


Post by: Blackie


 Xenomancers wrote:

SAG was just about as bad of an idea for a weapon as t5 orks are for this game. Just FYI - T4 orks do just fine. Orks currently have a higher win rate than marines in competitive 40k.


No, they are not fine. In competitive 40k they get the results using skewed lists with tons of infantries or tons of vehicles. SM get the results with average collections of models using a bit of everything. This is the real goal, to make armies optimized without skewing, not just getting a solid win rate. The drukhari codex is a perfect example of how a codex should be designed: you can put a limit of 0-1 choices per unit and still have a very optimized list. SM codex is also good but somehow ruined by having 3000 datasheets and the rules bloat.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/17 09:30:41


Post by: Not Online!!!


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Have you ever seen anyone use summoning well, Xeno?
I doubt it-because it’s not good. It’s not really versatile.

Whereas a Devastator squad swapping from Lascannons against tanks to Heavy Bolters against hordes doubles its power, more or less.

Why does it suck so much? Because it can be denied?
No. it can’t be denied-but it can fail on its own.
It requires a character to not move at all.
It’s limited to what they’re marked as, so only Belakor and unmarked CSM can summon any faction of demons.
They have to appear near the (non-moving, remember) character, and away from enemy models.
They get no bonuses or strats.

And most daemon units are pretty similar to one another anyway.


This.
Also if you build your list to not detonate on summoning you will run WB, and at that point the components you use for that list will work better as a possessed list regardless.
So there's virtually no point to summoning.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/17 12:21:04


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Xenomancers wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
Karol wrote:
Same thing I said to Xeno. How well do you think orkz would do if everyone tailored their lists to kill orkz like they do Space Marines?

I don't understand the reasoning behind the question. Orks are not popular enough for that to happen. And everyone was trying to meta against DE, all it achived was a slight drop in win rate, it is still the top army win rate wise out there. And that is with people having more then enough time to adjust to the army.

Hey Xeno, did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, the reason SM's aren't running away with tournaments more than they are is because literally EVERYONE at tournaments builds there list to kill Marines?

But first it is not just tournaments, and second at tournaments if someone goes full anti marine meta, then they better be friends with the judges or the person who does the match ups, so they get those 2 DA games in match 3-5, because if they run in to SoB, DE or orks they are going to be very sad about their results.


honestly this is one of the things warmachine got very very right. you should produce your main army list but also ahve a sidebaord so that you can choose to adjust based on what you are facing. the core of the army mostly stays the same but you get a few things to play around with to adjust. ideally it'd just be "ok i am playing against space marines (not having seen the other's list), i'll sub in squad x with lower ap weapons" not huge amounts of points but a few squads for most armies to swap. if that same player is facing dark eldar maybe higher volume of shots less dependant on ap is the way to go.

Absolutely agree. Units with weapon options should be able to chose them at the very minimum pregame.


not exactly how a side board works, though you could somewhat do this with a few squads. you would have 15% of your army to work with and a set amount of units to swap in. much easier in power level games than points games but as an example you might in a 2000 point game you now have 300 points to swap in and out. If you wanted to say bring 2 devistator squads where both have a sarg, 2 heavy bolters, and in one squad 2 las cannons and in another 2 plasma cannons. there is 140 of your 300 points to swap between on the sideboard before the game starts. or mayeb you decide you want a pure anti tank dev squad but on the side baord in case of orks or tyranids you have a thunderfire cannon to swap in at the 120 points. swapping weapon loadouts at the squad level, while it would be nice for marines, would actually not benefit most other armies whereas swapping whole squads makes things pretty even.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/25 02:08:17


Post by: SemperMortis


250+ votes and the general consensus is Stay the same, go to 9ppm and the next biggest is 10ppm, everything else is extreme minority.

10ppm could be doable, so long as GW tacks on other benefits for ork boyz in general, I would prefer them to stay at 8 but we shall see


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/25 16:17:25


Post by: Xenomancers


SemperMortis wrote:
250+ votes and the general consensus is Stay the same, go to 9ppm and the next biggest is 10ppm, everything else is extreme minority.

10ppm could be doable, so long as GW tacks on other benefits for ork boyz in general, I would prefer them to stay at 8 but we shall see

I'd prefer for the units in my favorite army to get +1T and -1 ap on their melee attacks for the cost of 0 - but then again. I understand that would require more than just a small point increase.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/25 16:29:49


Post by: SemperMortis


 Xenomancers wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
250+ votes and the general consensus is Stay the same, go to 9ppm and the next biggest is 10ppm, everything else is extreme minority.

10ppm could be doable, so long as GW tacks on other benefits for ork boyz in general, I would prefer them to stay at 8 but we shall see

I'd prefer for the units in my favorite army to get +1T and -1 ap on their melee attacks for the cost of 0 - but then again. I understand that would require more than just a small point increase.


Didn't your preferred army get +1 wound, -1AP on every gun/CCW in the army (depending on turn, and some in general), double your shooting from range on your most common firearm, double your CC attacks turn 1 all for the cost of 3ppm? And didn't that "increase" in price basically just bump you to where you guys used to be several editions ago? And aren't you guys now more durable point for point and more deadly point for point against basically every basic troops choice than you were in previous editions?

Its almost like you constantly complain about any other faction that you don't play getting any kind of buff.



How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/25 17:29:34


Post by: a_typical_hero


 Xenomancers wrote:
I'd prefer for the units in my favorite army to get +1T and -1 ap on their melee attacks for the cost of 0 - but then again. I understand that would require more than just a small point increase.

I don't, as it makes no sense balance and gamewise. And my favourite is the same as yours. Just because you would benefit from it, doesn't mean that it is good for the game.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/26 10:38:00


Post by: Blackie


 Xenomancers wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
250+ votes and the general consensus is Stay the same, go to 9ppm and the next biggest is 10ppm, everything else is extreme minority.

10ppm could be doable, so long as GW tacks on other benefits for ork boyz in general, I would prefer them to stay at 8 but we shall see

I'd prefer for the units in my favorite army to get +1T and -1 ap on their melee attacks for the cost of 0 - but then again. I understand that would require more than just a small point increase.


Ap-1 is only for choppa models, which are boyz, snaggas, warbikes, stormboyz, kommandos and nobz with the latter that would probably prefer other options, but they are affected by the change so I consider them anyway. The majority of the ork units won't get any AP bonus in combat since only a few of them have choppas. And it's just AP-1 though, not AP-1 in turns 1 and 2 then buffed to AP-2 . We're not getting a stackable -1AP buff to our other close combat weapons from turn 3 either.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/26 22:15:56


Post by: SemperMortis


 Blackie wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
250+ votes and the general consensus is Stay the same, go to 9ppm and the next biggest is 10ppm, everything else is extreme minority.

10ppm could be doable, so long as GW tacks on other benefits for ork boyz in general, I would prefer them to stay at 8 but we shall see

I'd prefer for the units in my favorite army to get +1T and -1 ap on their melee attacks for the cost of 0 - but then again. I understand that would require more than just a small point increase.


Ap-1 is only for choppa models, which are boyz, snaggas, warbikes, stormboyz, kommandos and nobz with the latter that would probably prefer other options, but they are affected by the change so I consider them anyway. The majority of the ork units won't get any AP bonus in combat since only a few of them have choppas. And it's just AP-1 though, not AP-1 in turns 1 and 2 then buffed to AP-2 . We're not getting a stackable -1AP buff to our other close combat weapons from turn 3 either.


No Army would have all those buffs for free Blackie, that would be ridiculous and OP and these players complaining about T5 orkz would be up in arms right? I mean....could you imagine if Marines got that buff?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/27 00:00:21


Post by: catbarf


 Xenomancers wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.


Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.


Definitely not 'common sense.' More just 'bad at statistics'

When you are being wrong...you should probably not insult people. This is brain dead common sense stuff.

and while the average to get at least 1 hit on 2 shots on 5's is 56% and a single shot htting on 3's is 66%. You get the idea. The chance of getting 2 hits on the single shot gun hitting on 3's is 0%.


The more dice are rolled, the more the result trends towards the average, and the less likely extreme results are. You are more likely to get 6 or more hits on 8 dice at 3+ than you are to get 6 or more hits on 16 dice at 5+. That's how bell curves work.

You are overwhelmingly more likely to have issues with units 'rolling well' or 'rolling poorly' when they only get a few trials, like single-shot weapons, psychic tests, or abilities that are contingent on a once-per-turn die roll.

This fixation with 'potential damage' is bad understanding of statistics.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/27 11:46:47


Post by: SemperMortis


 catbarf wrote:


The more dice are rolled, the more the result trends towards the average, and the less likely extreme results are. You are more likely to get 6 or more hits on 8 dice at 3+ than you are to get 6 or more hits on 16 dice at 5+. That's how bell curves work.

You are overwhelmingly more likely to have issues with units 'rolling well' or 'rolling poorly' when they only get a few trials, like single-shot weapons, psychic tests, or abilities that are contingent on a once-per-turn die roll.

This fixation with 'potential damage' is bad understanding of statistics.


I've been trying to explain that to him for a bit. I'm guessing he got hit with one of those rare 3 Smasha gun shots turned into 6 and therefore the game is broken.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/27 12:09:42


Post by: Karol


 Blackie wrote:

Ap-1 is only for choppa models, which are boyz, snaggas, warbikes, stormboyz, kommandos and nobz with the latter that would probably prefer other options, but they are affected by the change so I consider them anyway. The majority of the ork units won't get any AP bonus in combat since only a few of them have choppas. And it's just AP-1 though, not AP-1 in turns 1 and 2 then buffed to AP-2 . We're not getting a stackable -1AP buff to our other close combat weapons from turn 3 either.


Why would someone want choppas on flyers or grot gun crews, or units that are using killsaws? Plus how would that even work. Plus orks don't have to get stackable -1AP to be efficient, they have more dice to roll and more unit. The impact of a few tens of boys will always be bigger then the impact 5 intercessor in 3-4 squads can do. Blade guard have the same problem, as they are very good at killing other marines and 2W stuff, but not very efficent vs hordes of units that drop their save.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/27 14:47:51


Post by: Tyel


To be sort of devils advocate, there is an argument that maximum damage should be capped, because if a thousand Ork players roll a thousand dice, someone somewhere is going to get the maximum amount of damage. This isn't really an Ork thing, so much as a game thing.

Its why D6 shot D6 damage weapons are awful. The swing is far beyond what I think should be in the game - even if its going to be funny or frustrating when it does nothing/wipes out a Knight.

There's a sort of out of game mechanic in Orks being the faction that rolls lots of dice and just hopes to get lucky though. But would people really want to have to throw 120 dice from shooting say 30 shoota boyz?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/27 18:34:53


Post by: Jidmah


Tyel wrote:
To be sort of devils advocate, there is an argument that maximum damage should be capped, because if a thousand Ork players roll a thousand dice, someone somewhere is going to get the maximum amount of damage. This isn't really an Ork thing, so much as a game thing.

Its why D6 shot D6 damage weapons are awful. The swing is far beyond what I think should be in the game - even if its going to be funny or frustrating when it does nothing/wipes out a Knight.

There's a sort of out of game mechanic in Orks being the faction that rolls lots of dice and just hopes to get lucky though. But would people really want to have to throw 120 dice from shooting say 30 shoota boyz?


Most things swing both ways, so as long as there isn't a minimum damage mechanic, there shouldn't be a maximum. Orks fight those swings by having multiples of cheap guns, so you get into the territory of the law of large numbers.

And outside of people mathhammering stuff, rolling 120 dice doesn't happen a lot. Assuming all are in range, which isn't a given 30 shoota boyz shoot 60 times which is in the ballpark of what some elite units can do as well. In combat, there is a soft cap due to the 1/2" rule, in practice you rarely have more than 10-12 boyz in combat, which also is in line with other armies' elite units.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/27 19:09:38


Post by: Beardedragon


boys with +1 toughness would only follow the current meta where everyone does more damage and where its common to kill 60 boys in one turn.

The codex tries to prevent that from being a common currency. So no, Orks shouldnt cost more by getting a +1 Toughness.

Orks dies too fast already. they should be more duable.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/27 20:32:02


Post by: Quasistellar


I was pretty sure before, but now I'm almost positive they'll be 8 points after having seen kabalite warriors and skitarii.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/27 20:41:13


Post by: Karol


Beardedragon wrote:
boys with +1 toughness would only follow the current meta where everyone does more damage and where its common to kill 60 boys in one turn.

The codex tries to prevent that from being a common currency. So no, Orks shouldnt cost more by getting a +1 Toughness.

Orks dies too fast already. they should be more duable.


If that was true, and orks were losing 60 models per turn on avarge. Then they wouldn't have the win rates they have now, and instead would be sitting around with tau. gsc and similar armies in the bad armies bracket.

It is a core unit, and the upgrade is army wide, as are other. And they are made to an army that was succesful in 9th already. It sure as hell was not weak pre codex. And all knowladge from prior editions shows, that buffing low cost units is always a bigger buff, then the same kind of a buff existing for elite armies. +5inv on termintors is laughable , a +5inv on 20 boys is not.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/27 20:47:58


Post by: Beardedragon


on average against decently shooty armies i can easily lose 40-50 models.

The only way boys were successful as how they're meant to be used, in groups of 30, was with Ghaz in a goff army. Where they're buffed to the max with str 5.


Few uses blobs of 30 in a non goff army because its simply better to run them in groups of 10, thus losing out on most stratagems that makes sense to use on them as well as their own buffs that only kicks in when they are 20+ models.


Saying that orks do decently in tournements doesnt mean boys as whole are great units. Im not saying they're terrible because they are not, they are good when they get to do their thing, they're just only really useful in close combat, by which many will be dead when they get there. Having no boys by turn 3, is a common thing, and close to 70% tends to be dead by turn 2 depending on the armies you face. Most winning ork armies, except for goff orks, dont use 30 man blobs. The most picked number is 10, and thus they leave out on most stratagems (Green tide/Get stuck in Ladz) as well as their own ability (+1 CC attack, once again, a CC related ability), because their own ability does not trigger at 10 models, and the two other stratagems would be slowed to use on a 10 man squad.


Boys are good in 30 man squads, IF you run Goff and uses Ghaz. Otherwise you're better off not doing it. Its fun to use 90 shoota boys with bad moon, but hardly competitive. The range is only 18, and if you run standard boys on 32 mm bases, most your models wont reach the enemy, and if they do, you're most likely so close to the enemy that you could charge anyway. Boys tends to advance most places as well so you would be hitting on 6s, because why would you use More dakka on a group of boys when you have other units to put that stratagem on?

Shootas will give you a very small yield in terms of damage, generally speaking, so if you want to maximize the output of boys, its close combat. That which many of them will be dead before they get to the frontline.

Furthermore, for the entire army, its a general thing that orks dont run invul saves on units and vehicles, unless they are near the KFF. Having 90 boys you can bet your ass you will only find 60 of them inside the KFF and if thats happening he isnt spreading out at all. at least 30 boys will at the beginning be outside of the KFF, and when Turn 1 is over and you go to turn 2, odds are, only 1 unit of 30 is inside the KFF.

So yes, Orks have a KFF that gives invul saves to shooting, but it wont last at all. And what happens to many space marines in turn 2? tactical doctrine. -1 AP weapons and boys will die in troves.

While its completely normal that factions have a higher winning chance by getting turn 1, orks winning chances often plummets rather much due to lack of defensive capabilities. We also dont really have that high RAW alpha damage that many other factions do.


Also, orks arent winning hard against the new codexes that are being released. Adeptus mechanicus and drukhari all *Beep* orks back to the fungus state. And Death Guard is pretty damn difficult too. With all the new ways of dealing obscene amount of damage, its nice to see that GW at least acknowledges that Orks are going to have a hard time going forward. Because that seems to be a meta thing for GW, lots of damage. Aka, codex creep. Since the codexes arent released at the same time, the changes being made to orks now might sound stupid. But they might make sense in the full picture where others receive lots more damage or ways to destroy the orks. That they're doing well now, wont necessarily be so, in 1 year from now.

There are literal armies that win based on whether they get turn 1. My thousand sons friend, who barely uses thousand sons models, teleports 10 terminators in (having been hiding terrain), shoots off 80 shots, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s with str 4 weapons, +1 to wound from what ever causes it, so its a +3 on wounds. How many boys do you think i have left after that salvo? The KFF saves some sure and a painboy might as well. But i need to be in a complete defensive circle in order to do this, and even then, i still lose 45 or so boys. And that was only his turn 1 shooting and his terminators. he still has magnus left, 3 defilers and 20 rubric marines left and 2 daemon princes + a hellbrute.

To be fair ive won all our matches, but thats only because he messes up how many shots he needs to dedicate to where, and the rest of his armys placement. Once he gets that right, if he has turn 1, im dead. And he aint the only faction that can do that. Because im paying 250 for 29 boys + a nob with a powerklaw. max that to 3x and thats 750 points for something that only has a movement of 5 right now, Toughness 4 and can only really hit something in close combat. The moment you are a horde faction, even going +1 point starts making a massive difference. It'll be the difference between 250 points for a normal 30 man blob, and 280 points.

Get toughness 5 and go to maybe 9 points and get a normal 3x 30 man squad thats suddenly 840 points from the 750 you paid before. You already paid 750 points before for a unit that could do nothing else but hold points and hit things in close combat, and that was a decent chunk of your army you didnt want to lose. They're not poxwalkers. You DO care about boys. But if that increase of +1 toughness on boys means 9 points per model for a total of 840 points, that means less points to pay for toys that are actually going to do the damage at a distance. because boys cant do that. That will either result in fewer boys being put on the table, or boys not being picked at all, maybe in favor of Skarboys or just plain grots for secondaries and objective holding. And if it results in fewer boys on the table, then tell me, what was the point of going +1 toughness? +1 toughness or fewer boys to begin with?.

adding +1 point to hordes, is a big deal. on the other hand, if someone added 3 points to my Mega Nobz, except for the fact it would suck, it wouldnt be a big deal. (not saying they should get +3 ppm, it was just an example).


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/28 00:01:45


Post by: Jarms48



Nah my bet is ghazzy's weapon trait (current number but rapid fire) ison all shoota weaponry.

Heavy shoota - rapid 3
shoota - rapid 2
supa-shoota - rapid 4


I'd be fine with this, stack it with the exploding 6's and that's a decent buff.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/28 01:11:25


Post by: SemperMortis


Karol wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
boys with +1 toughness would only follow the current meta where everyone does more damage and where its common to kill 60 boys in one turn.

The codex tries to prevent that from being a common currency. So no, Orks shouldnt cost more by getting a +1 Toughness.

Orks dies too fast already. they should be more duable.


If that was true, and orks were losing 60 models per turn on avarge. Then they wouldn't have the win rates they have now, and instead would be sitting around with tau. gsc and similar armies in the bad armies bracket.

It is a core unit, and the upgrade is army wide, as are other. And they are made to an army that was succesful in 9th already. It sure as hell was not weak pre codex. And all knowladge from prior editions shows, that buffing low cost units is always a bigger buff, then the same kind of a buff existing for elite armies. +5inv on termintors is laughable , a +5inv on 20 boys is not.


Yet again, W/L rate is meaningless in the tournament meta, top 4 placements is what matters when trying to decide whether or not a codex/army is competitive. W/L rate in friendlies would be a better indicator, but since its a friendly game they usually don't keep track anywhere But hey, if we want to continue to use W/L as a justification for a faction doing well...here is Drukhari since April. 30.2% win rate. https://onedrive.live.com/View.aspx?resid=AF10FF48A372CEE4!939&authkey=!AI4cPoutPkJTLZA

Guess that means Drukhari need a hefty buff right?

Oh, and that 5++ on terminators isn't "laughable". Its a 50% increase in survivability against -4AP weapons like Melta. You are comparing apples to oranges. Terminators use a 5++ on weapons designed to kill tanks, Orkz use a 5++ on bolter shots. So yeah, the 5++ is used more for those orkz, because they otherwise have a laughable 6+ save to begin with. Bump boyz to a 5+ save standard and watch how quickly the KFF disappears from most lists.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/28 07:36:56


Post by: a_typical_hero


SemperMortis wrote:
Yet again, W/L rate is meaningless in the tournament meta, top 4 placements is what matters when trying to decide whether or not a codex/army is competitive. W/L rate in friendlies would be a better indicator, but since its a friendly game they usually don't keep track anywhere But hey, if we want to continue to use W/L as a justification for a faction doing well...here is Drukhari since April. 30.2% win rate. https://onedrive.live.com/View.aspx?resid=AF10FF48A372CEE4!939&authkey=!AI4cPoutPkJTLZA

Where do your 30% come from? In your own link they sit at 50%. Looking at 40kstats since April, Dhrukari sit at 69%. Pretty representitive for how overtuned the initial release of their dex was.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/28 09:40:52


Post by: AngryAngel80


They will cost all of the points, I mean even guard went up in cost for no reason I can even understand and boys will be far better than them now.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/29 09:17:49


Post by: Blackie


SemperMortis wrote:


Oh, and that 5++ on terminators isn't "laughable". Its a 50% increase in survivability against -4AP weapons like Melta. You are comparing apples to oranges. Terminators use a 5++ on weapons designed to kill tanks, Orkz use a 5++ on bolter shots. So yeah, the 5++ is used more for those orkz, because they otherwise have a laughable 6+ save to begin with. Bump boyz to a 5+ save standard and watch how quickly the KFF disappears from most lists.


5++ on terminators is actually massive since it's free and they are targeted by weapons that don't have high rate of fire. 5-10 anti elite shots can suffer a lot against a 5++ (I remember watching a batrep on Skared channel a few months ago in which a Raider tanked like 10-12 melta shots thanks to its 5++), but 60 anti infantry shots will still do a great job against boyz with 5++, as higher number of shots means getting results that are closer to averages.

In fact I typically don't bring the KFF to shield boyz while I wouldn't even consider using termies if they hadn't their native 5++. Which can also be upgraded to a 4++ and +1 save for free actually .


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/06/29 09:49:46


Post by: tneva82


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You guys are making the assumption that there is no malice or intent behind slow playing as a horde army. I'm like, dude this isn't a GT. Just tell me what your intent is and I'll agree to play along.


If somebody wants to slowplay intentionally...well newsflash. That works for every army.

You know what's THE slowest faction I have ever faced?

Orks? Nope.
Tyranids? Nope.
IG? Nope.

Answer: Dark eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:

Oh, and that 5++ on terminators isn't "laughable". Its a 50% increase in survivability against -4AP weapons like Melta. You are comparing apples to oranges. Terminators use a 5++ on weapons designed to kill tanks, Orkz use a 5++ on bolter shots. So yeah, the 5++ is used more for those orkz, because they otherwise have a laughable 6+ save to begin with. Bump boyz to a 5+ save standard and watch how quickly the KFF disappears from most lists.


Seeing 5+ is in essence 6+ in GOOD place and -2 is the new -1...not really.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/01 01:55:25


Post by: SemperMortis


a_typical_hero wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yet again, W/L rate is meaningless in the tournament meta, top 4 placements is what matters when trying to decide whether or not a codex/army is competitive. W/L rate in friendlies would be a better indicator, but since its a friendly game they usually don't keep track anywhere But hey, if we want to continue to use W/L as a justification for a faction doing well...here is Drukhari since April. 30.2% win rate. https://onedrive.live.com/View.aspx?resid=AF10FF48A372CEE4!939&authkey=!AI4cPoutPkJTLZA

Where do your 30% come from? In your own link they sit at 50%. Looking at 40kstats since April, Dhrukari sit at 69%. Pretty representitive for how overtuned the initial release of their dex was.


You have to change the data point from comparing against only Drukhari otherwise all you are doing is comparing how everyone is currently doing against Drukhari.

They still haven't updated the website since the 6th, but from the sheer # of datapoints I don't see the number drastically changing anytime soon, especially since the most recent data point shows Drukhari with a 17.5% win rate Yet more proof that W/L rate is a useless stat when comparing how powerful a factions top lists are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:


Seeing 5+ is in essence 6+ in GOOD place and -2 is the new -1...not really.


If ork boyz went to a 5+ with no points increase, I would never bring a KFF Big mek for them. At that point let them eat bullets even with -1 AP or -2


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/01 03:40:31


Post by: Karol


 Blackie wrote:


5++ on terminators is actually massive since it's free and they are targeted by weapons that don't have high rate of fire. 5-10 anti elite shots can suffer a lot against a 5++ (I remember watching a batrep on Skared channel a few months ago in which a Raider tanked like 10-12 melta shots thanks to its 5++), but 60 anti infantry shots will still do a great job against boyz with 5++, as higher number of shots means getting results that are closer to averages.

In fact I typically don't bring the KFF to shield boyz while I wouldn't even consider using termies if they hadn't their native 5++. Which can also be upgraded to a 4++ and +1 save for free actually .


+5 inv on termintors is very much not free, and there is more then enough weapons being used that force multiple rolls per turn. Stuff like squads of 3 attack bikes etc. The difference also is that termintors, unlike raiders do not come with a build in -1 to hit. Plus a hit from a heavier weapon doesn't kill them outright most of the time, if the save is failed.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/01 05:16:04


Post by: Jarms48


Wait for people to start realising all their x2 powerfists and thunderhammers don't wound on 2+ either anymore. Same with battle cannons or earth shaker cannons.

Presumably mega armoured nobs will be T5 as well. So missile launchers and lascannons will no longer wound them on 2+ either.

Bikes will most likely be T6. So demolisher cannons will no longer wound them on 2+.

It's a huge change.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/01 06:32:12


Post by: Blackie


Karol wrote:


+5 inv on termintors is very much not free, and there is more then enough weapons being used that force multiple rolls per turn. Stuff like squads of 3 attack bikes etc. The difference also is that termintors, unlike raiders do not come with a build in -1 to hit. Plus a hit from a heavier weapon doesn't kill them outright most of the time, if the save is failed.


5++ and even 4++ for termies don't cost any extra points, and Raiders don't have a build in -1 to hit, there's a 1CP stratagem ("Lightning Fast Reactions") for that. Venoms have native -1 to hit.

And while a single hit doesn't kill a vehicle outright most of the time it's also true that you need 5 unsaved hits to kill a min squads of termies, while only a couple could be enough to wreck a vehicle . Termies soak way more melta shots than raiders per point. Two unsaved melta shots should kill one 95ppm raider or two 33ppm (66 in total) termies in melta range, and that's not even considering giving them the free storm shield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jarms48 wrote:
Wait for people to start realising all their x2 powerfists and thunderhammers don't wound on 2+ either anymore. Same with battle cannons or earth shaker cannons.

Presumably mega armoured nobs will be T5 as well. So missile launchers and lascannons will no longer wound them on 2+ either.

Bikes will most likely be T6. So demolisher cannons will no longer wound them on 2+.

It's a huge change.


With the volume of shots/attacks that SM have, plus all the tools to enhance them (starting with re-rolls) that won't be a problem. Finally orks vs SM would be more balanced without skewing, which is, or at least should be, the goal of a balanced codex.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/01 15:52:58


Post by: SemperMortis


Karol wrote:

+5 inv on termintors is very much not free, and there is more then enough weapons being used that force multiple rolls per turn. Stuff like squads of 3 attack bikes etc. The difference also is that termintors, unlike raiders do not come with a build in -1 to hit. Plus a hit from a heavier weapon doesn't kill them outright most of the time, if the save is failed.


Terminator: 38 pts, M5 WS/BS 3+ S/T 4 3 wounds, 2 attacks, 2+ save and 5+ invuln.
Meganob: 38pts M4 WS 3+ BS 5+ S5 T4, 3 wounds, 3 attacks, 2+ save NO INVULN

The only advantage a Meganob has over a Terminator is S5 and +1 attack, the Terminator on the other hand has better movement, Better ballistic skill, better ranged weapon and an invuln save. You could argue that the +1 S and attack is worth the same as +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill and a significantly better ranged weapon, but I don't think you are going to find too many people who would agree that +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill, better ranged weapon AND a 5+ invuln is worth the same. So yeah, the Terminators in comparison to a very similar unit have a free 5+ invuln.

Jarms48 wrote:
Wait for people to start realising all their x2 powerfists and thunderhammers don't wound on 2+ either anymore. Same with battle cannons or earth shaker cannons.
Presumably mega armoured nobs will be T5 as well. So missile launchers and lascannons will no longer wound them on 2+ either.
Bikes will most likely be T6. So demolisher cannons will no longer wound them on 2+.
It's a huge change.


How many PFs and TH's are you seeing on a regular basis in games? Regardless, it is a big change, but not nearly as big as +1 wound to all Marines. +1 toughness is equivalent to a (1/4th depending on math)1/3rd reduction in dmg vs S4 and a reduction of 1/4th (1/5th same thing) vs PF and TH. Where as +1 wound was a 50% reduction in dmg vs ALL D1 weaponry and a 33% reduction in D3 weaponry. As far as Bikers...I literally have not seen a single demolisher cannon since the very beginning of 8th. T6 is likely the least important durability buff in the game since its really only impacts S5 weapons and the rare S6 weapon. Not to mention that as of this moment Bikers are kind of crap. Their only plus side is their movement speed and their dakkagun. A single warbiker costs MORE than 3 boyz, has the same range with its weapon but it gets +1S.

Atm 8 Warbikers cost the same as 27 Boyz. 8 warbikers get 18.6 hits, 12.4 wounds and a total of 4.13 dmg vs a unit of Space Marines. 27 Boyz get 21 hits, 10.5 wounds and 3.5dmg. Nobody in the entire game is bragging about how good shoota boyz are, so complaining that warbikers get T6 is a bit disingenuous right now. Lets wait and see if they get an increase in dmg potential as well before we fly off the handle talking about how a demolisher cannon isn't as effective as before





How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/02 08:05:34


Post by: Blackie


SemperMortis wrote:


Terminator: 38 pts, M5 WS/BS 3+ S/T 4 3 wounds, 2 attacks, 2+ save and 5+ invuln.
Meganob: 38pts M4 WS 3+ BS 5+ S5 T4, 3 wounds, 3 attacks, 2+ save NO INVULN

The only advantage a Meganob has over a Terminator is S5 and +1 attack, the Terminator on the other hand has better movement, Better ballistic skill, better ranged weapon and an invuln save. You could argue that the +1 S and attack is worth the same as +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill and a significantly better ranged weapon, but I don't think you are going to find too many people who would agree that +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill, better ranged weapon AND a 5+ invuln is worth the same. So yeah, the Terminators in comparison to a very similar unit have a free 5+ invuln.



Don't forget that Termies have native deep strike ability and the storm shield (4++ and +1 to save) is also a free upgrade.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/02 08:21:02


Post by: Karol


The only advantage a Meganob has over a Terminator is S5 and +1 attack, the Terminator on the other hand has better movement, Better ballistic skill, better ranged weapon and an invuln save. You could argue that the +1 S and attack is worth the same as +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill and a significantly better ranged weapon, but I don't think you are going to find too many people who would agree that +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill, better ranged weapon AND a 5+ invuln is worth the same. So yeah, the Terminators in comparison to a very similar unit have a free 5+ invuln.


The only termintors that have 3W are those from the marine codex. The chaos, 1ksons and GK one do not have 3W. I am not sure why your comparing termintors to meganobs either, as they not really used in orks armies, and if they are they are not used in mass formations the way DG or GK use them. The problem is not that unit like meganobs with +1T gets tougher, although that is a problem in itself, but the fact that easily spamed unit like boys are on a point for point basis, more effecient as core option, then termintors in other armies as core options. I mean just look at DG, they have the option of running PM or upgraded cultists in the form of pox walkers. PMs are generaly not run in DG lists, 3 units of pox walkers on the other hand, are there every time.

Also something like meganob is more resilient in an ork army, then a termintor in any marine army, based on the sole fact, that the opponent has to first deal with a bucket of orks that are super cheap. Often there is no weapons left to target the mega nobs, and if ork boys are not killed by the end of turn 2, generally the game is lost. Specially if the ork player started.
I mean if termintors were that great, and that much better then something like ork boys. You would expect the army with the best terminators to have better win rates then orks. Somehow that did not happen. And to make matters fun, then DE came out, which orks can , to a degree of course, ignore, while something like a unit of termintors was free points.

also I'd wish my termintors cost 38pts.


Don't forget that Termies have native deep strike ability and the storm shield (4++ and +1 to save) is also a free upgrade.

Aside of course of all those termintors in armies that can't take stormshields.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/02 09:25:15


Post by: Blackie


Karol wrote:


The only termintors that have 3W are those from the marine codex. The chaos, 1ksons and GK one do not have 3W.


Those have psychic powers though. At worst they deal mortal wounds for free, in addition to any other things that regular termies do.

And sooner or later they'll get their 3rd wound as well.



How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/02 10:19:18


Post by: Jidmah


Karol wrote:
The only advantage a Meganob has over a Terminator is S5 and +1 attack, the Terminator on the other hand has better movement, Better ballistic skill, better ranged weapon and an invuln save. You could argue that the +1 S and attack is worth the same as +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill and a significantly better ranged weapon, but I don't think you are going to find too many people who would agree that +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill, better ranged weapon AND a 5+ invuln is worth the same. So yeah, the Terminators in comparison to a very similar unit have a free 5+ invuln.


The only termintors that have 3W are those from the marine codex. The chaos, 1ksons and GK one do not have 3W. I am not sure why your comparing termintors to meganobs either, as they not really used in orks armies, and if they are they are not used in mass formations the way DG or GK use them. The problem is not that unit like meganobs with +1T gets tougher, although that is a problem in itself, but the fact that easily spamed unit like boys are on a point for point basis, more effecient as core option, then termintors in other armies as core options. I mean just look at DG, they have the option of running PM or upgraded cultists in the form of pox walkers. PMs are generaly not run in DG lists, 3 units of pox walkers on the other hand, are there every time.

Also something like meganob is more resilient in an ork army, then a termintor in any marine army, based on the sole fact, that the opponent has to first deal with a bucket of orks that are super cheap. Often there is no weapons left to target the mega nobs, and if ork boys are not killed by the end of turn 2, generally the game is lost. Specially if the ork player started.
I mean if termintors were that great, and that much better then something like ork boys. You would expect the army with the best terminators to have better win rates then orks. Somehow that did not happen. And to make matters fun, then DE came out, which orks can , to a degree of course, ignore, while something like a unit of termintors was free points.

Kudos, almost every single sentence in that post is wrong. That really takes some skill, even Xeno usually gets at least something right.
1. DG terminators are 3W as well, and all other terminators will have that many as well. This has been confirmed by GW.
2. He is comparing MANz to terminators because they are literally ork terminators and always have been. They even are in fluff, both marines and orks have acknowledged them as such in-universe.
3. They see a lot of play in ork lists, both in competitive lists and less competitive archetypes because they are really good at flipping and holding objectives. They either tellyport in or ride a battlewagon and can have objective secured.
4. CORE matters little to nothing to orks because we don't have a lot of auras, and those which we have are usually locked into INFANTRY anyways.
5. Not even sure what you are trying to say here? MANz shouldn't get +1T because boy are better because DG are running poxwalkers instead of plague marines? In any case, PM still are decent, just not on a tournament meta level, and people are taking poxwalkers so they have more points for terminators.
6. Weapons that are good at killing boyz suck at killing MANz and vice versa. You kill MANz with anti-tank weapons because unlike your paladins, they usually don't have an invulnerable save any better than 6++. And no, they usually aren't protect by a KFF.
7. The notion that orks auto-win when you don't wipe all their boyz by turn 2 is hilarious.
8. The armies with the best terminators (DG and DA) both have winrates better or equal to orks, depending on which data pool you look at.
9. Orks lose 67% of their games against drukhari, which matches my personal experience - unless you have hot dice on the right targets they just blend everything.

also I'd wish my termintors cost 38pts.

Uhm, I don't know how to tell you... they already do?

Honestly, at this point I am wishing that GW totally bombs the GK codex and makes it horribly bad, just as a payback for all the vitriol and bad faith arguments you keep throwing at players of other armies.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/02 14:20:49


Post by: SemperMortis


Karol wrote:
The only advantage a Meganob has over a Terminator is S5 and +1 attack, the Terminator on the other hand has better movement, Better ballistic skill, better ranged weapon and an invuln save. You could argue that the +1 S and attack is worth the same as +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill and a significantly better ranged weapon, but I don't think you are going to find too many people who would agree that +1 movement, +2 ballistic skill, better ranged weapon AND a 5+ invuln is worth the same. So yeah, the Terminators in comparison to a very similar unit have a free 5+ invuln.


The only termintors that have 3W are those from the marine codex. The chaos, 1ksons and GK one do not have 3W. I am not sure why your comparing termintors to meganobs either, as they not really used in orks armies, and if they are they are not used in mass formations the way DG or GK use them. The problem is not that unit like meganobs with +1T gets tougher, although that is a problem in itself, but the fact that easily spamed unit like boys are on a point for point basis, more effecient as core option, then termintors in other armies as core options. I mean just look at DG, they have the option of running PM or upgraded cultists in the form of pox walkers. PMs are generaly not run in DG lists, 3 units of pox walkers on the other hand, are there every time.

Also something like meganob is more resilient in an ork army, then a termintor in any marine army, based on the sole fact, that the opponent has to first deal with a bucket of orks that are super cheap. Often there is no weapons left to target the mega nobs, and if ork boys are not killed by the end of turn 2, generally the game is lost. Specially if the ork player started.
I mean if termintors were that great, and that much better then something like ork boys. You would expect the army with the best terminators to have better win rates then orks. Somehow that did not happen. And to make matters fun, then DE came out, which orks can , to a degree of course, ignore, while something like a unit of termintors was free points.

also I'd wish my termintors cost 38pts.


Don't forget that Termies have native deep strike ability and the storm shield (4++ and +1 to save) is also a free upgrade.

Aside of course of all those termintors in armies that can't take stormshields.


wow, I mean wow. Jidmah already did a rather spectacular job of dismantling all of this garble but i just had to say WOW! I was reminded of the scene in Billy Madison where the principle gives his response to Adam Sandlers rant. it felt rather fitting here.




How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/02 14:26:08


Post by: Jidmah


SemperMortis wrote:
wow, I mean wow. Jidmah already did a rather spectacular job of dismantling all of this garble but i just had to say WOW! I was reminded of the scene in Billy Madison where the principle gives his response to Adam Sandlers rant. it felt rather fitting here.

Spoiler:



Hilarious and absolutely fitting


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/02 18:13:07


Post by: Tyel


I think its come up, but the only reason I'd like Boyz to go up is that the inevitable £35-40 for a box of 10 potentially costing just 80 points is going to be awful for anyone starting the faction with the new models.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/02 18:48:41


Post by: Jidmah


Tyel wrote:
I think its come up, but the only reason I'd like Boyz to go up is that the inevitable £35-40 for a box of 10 potentially costing just 80 points is going to be awful for anyone starting the faction with the new models.


I'm still hoping for beast snagga boyz being units of 20, that would at least cut the cost a bit.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/02 19:06:32


Post by: G00fySmiley


I would prefer there to be actual ard boyz again where you can spend points for a 4+ armor save liek the 4th edition codex. Obviously at that point the points need to be quite higher but then you can play with less boyz as you are building the army. Likely it woudl be like the 4th ed codex where ard boyz were not very worth it but useful when you had fewer models


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/02 23:43:34


Post by: SemperMortis


Tyel wrote:
I think its come up, but the only reason I'd like Boyz to go up is that the inevitable £35-40 for a box of 10 potentially costing just 80 points is going to be awful for anyone starting the faction with the new models.


The only issue I have with that mindset is that the boys wouldn't be worth the price. Orkz are definitely not a beginner friendly army, but just jacking up the points cost of boyz wont make the faction better, it just makes them less likely to be purchased.

Only a related note though, WTF is with GW screwing ork players over with the Mek gun prices. The "newish" primaris Invader ATV is $40, 80pt model, roughly the same size as a Mek gun (I think its bigger) The Ork Mek gun is $50 and its worth 40pts on the battlefield. The Eldar's version of the Mek gun is only $24, the Imperial Guard Basilisk is only $55

But back on topic, I really can't imagine boyz going up more than 1ppm and being remotely cost effective unless there are a lot of other buffs they haven't shown us yet.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/03 00:41:59


Post by: Voss


Only a related note though, WTF is with GW screwing ork players over with the Mek gun prices. The "newish" primaris Invader ATV is $40, 80pt model, roughly the same size as a Mek gun (I think its bigger) The Ork Mek gun is $50 and its worth 40pts on the battlefield. The Eldar's version of the Mek gun is only $24, the Imperial Guard Basilisk is only $55

The mek gun was an issue when they did the new kit. It and the meganobz were part of the Gold(swords) era.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/03 08:40:37


Post by: Jidmah


SemperMortis wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I think its come up, but the only reason I'd like Boyz to go up is that the inevitable £35-40 for a box of 10 potentially costing just 80 points is going to be awful for anyone starting the faction with the new models.


The only issue I have with that mindset is that the boys wouldn't be worth the price. Orkz are definitely not a beginner friendly army, but just jacking up the points cost of boyz wont make the faction better, it just makes them less likely to be purchased.

Only a related note though, WTF is with GW screwing ork players over with the Mek gun prices. The "newish" primaris Invader ATV is $40, 80pt model, roughly the same size as a Mek gun (I think its bigger) The Ork Mek gun is $50 and its worth 40pts on the battlefield. The Eldar's version of the Mek gun is only $24, the Imperial Guard Basilisk is only $55

But back on topic, I really can't imagine boyz going up more than 1ppm and being remotely cost effective unless there are a lot of other buffs they haven't shown us yet.


From a pure plastic view, the mek gun is a more valuable model than the ATV though. It really should have the output of a basilisk instead of that of a heavy weapon team.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/03 11:57:07


Post by: Tyel


SemperMortis wrote:
The only issue I have with that mindset is that the boys wouldn't be worth the price. Orkz are definitely not a beginner friendly army, but just jacking up the points cost of boyz wont make the faction better, it just makes them less likely to be purchased.


Well yeah. Would only make sense in a context where boyz are quite a bit better than now.
Don't think it will happen though.

Mek Gunz being ludicrous expensive is bad - but (like Banshees and Flayed Ones) is not a central unit.

If the first thing an aspiring Ork player faces is "yeah, you probably want at least 60-90, perhaps even 120 boyz, and that's... £200-400" then yeah. People will be put off.

Would be much better if you got say 20 for £40. But I feel safe in saying that's not going to happen.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/04 00:46:38


Post by: SemperMortis


Tyel wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
The only issue I have with that mindset is that the boys wouldn't be worth the price. Orkz are definitely not a beginner friendly army, but just jacking up the points cost of boyz wont make the faction better, it just makes them less likely to be purchased.


Well yeah. Would only make sense in a context where boyz are quite a bit better than now.
Don't think it will happen though.

Mek Gunz being ludicrous expensive is bad - but (like Banshees and Flayed Ones) is not a central unit.

If the first thing an aspiring Ork player faces is "yeah, you probably want at least 60-90, perhaps even 120 boyz, and that's... £200-400" then yeah. People will be put off.

Would be much better if you got say 20 for £40. But I feel safe in saying that's not going to happen.


ATM 10 (technically 11) boyz are $36, in Order to field 1 full mob you are going to spend $108, OR if you want thats your 3 troops choices at minimum size. So 3 full mobs is $324...just for troops. Space Marines on the other hand are $49, so you could field 3 full sized squads for $147 and can get away with just 98 or even less if you can find them on ebay.

As far as Mek gunz not being central...they absolutely are. Smasha guns right now are the massive crutch upon which most Ork lists are built. And you want to talk about a barrier to entrance, if you want 1 full unit of Mek gunz, just 1, its going to run you $300.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/06 12:24:16


Post by: G00fySmiley


on mek gunz... it s basically currently our only price effective way to do anti armor short of reaching it with (slow) melee units. hard to open up a transport or other vehicles that can just zip away faster than you can move to get to the gooey center. out other good unit for this is warbosses on bikes and wartrikes but only cna have 2 and again you have to catch and charge the unit to make it work.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/06 12:27:45


Post by: tneva82


 Blackie wrote:
Karol wrote:


The only termintors that have 3W are those from the marine codex. The chaos, 1ksons and GK one do not have 3W.


Those have psychic powers though. At worst they deal mortal wounds for free, in addition to any other things that regular termies do.

And sooner or later they'll get their 3rd wound as well.



Well those will get 3rd wound as well sooner or later. Meganobz will get T6 and probably other changes as well.

Compare now to now, not now to future ;-)


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/06 13:03:38


Post by: Karol



1. DG terminators are 3W as well, and all other terminators will have that many as well. This has been confirmed by GW.

Where did I say that DG termis had 3W? I said that csm, 1ksons and GK didn't. And the will have soon matters when someone says it today and it happens tomorrow. The edition is almost a year now, and only GW knows where GK or 1ksons will be out. Because they sure as hell aren't coming out before orcs that is for sure.

2. He is comparing MANz to terminators because they are literally ork terminators and always have been. They even are in fluff, both marines and orks have acknowledged them as such in-universe.

But they are not used the same way. If a marine army takes termintors, it has to build its force around them, because in general, there are no cheap troops to fill in the rest of the army. When a DG player runs his army, the terminators are a huge chunk of both the points and the strategy of how a DG army works. An ork player can just splurg a unit of meganobs with minor impact on how the army works. On top of it all, unlike some armies, the mentioned by me GK or DG, orks do not NEED to run meganobz. So their efficiency does not matter in the end. If mega nobz gets better is is just the extra on top of the real important stuff in orks lists. If GK termintors are worse, then regular termintors, then this is a corner stone unit of a GK list being worse, for a year of an edition, and there are no signs of being +1W making much impact on how efficient armies are. DA have super termintors, with extra wounds and superhuman psychology always on. They are not even the best marine army right now. And marines in general get worse with each non marine codex coming out.



3. They see a lot of play in ork lists, both in competitive lists and less competitive archetypes because they are really good at flipping and holding objectives. They either tellyport in or ride a battlewagon and can have objective secured.

yes as an extra. But the orks army can be build without them. Try build an efficient DG or GK lists without termintors.

4. CORE matters little to nothing to orks because we don't have a lot of auras, and those which we have are usually locked into INFANTRY anyways.

Yes tell me about all those auras I get to enjoy with my core terminators. I wish to hear more about them.


5. Not even sure what you are trying to say here? MANz shouldn't get +1T because boy are better because DG are running poxwalkers instead of plague marines? In any case, PM still are decent, just not on a tournament meta level, and people are taking poxwalkers so they have more points for terminators.

No I am saying that orks don't have to run meganobz, unlike other armies that do. And historically any buff to cheap units were a lot more impactful for them, then the buffs to elite stuff. Elite stuff has to stack 3-4 extra rules on top of 2 other rules to even start working. While a blanket now you wound me on +5, on practically everything, is a huge and subsential buff to an army. Just look at marines, they have two wounds, and those auras everyone is so up in arms about, where are the wins though, where are the +60% win rates?


6. Weapons that are good at killing boyz suck at killing MANz and vice versa. You kill MANz with anti-tank weapons because unlike your paladins, they usually don't have an invulnerable save any better than 6++. And no, they usually aren't protect by a KFF.

Does an army of orks auto lose if it gets its unit of meganobz destroyed, the way a GK army does if it loses its paladins turn 1-2?


7. The notion that orks auto-win when you don't wipe all their boyz by turn 2 is hilarious.

VS which army?


8. The armies with the best terminators (DG and DA) both have winrates better or equal to orks, depending on which data pool you look at.

So the armies with better and improved rules, and little to no chance of getting new rules any time soon, are as good as orks played out of an old codex, with unupdated rules. Got it. We call this a injured & drunk event victory at my school. Unless the orks get a ton of nerfs and no improvments in their new codex, one should expect that they will get better then those armies after getting their codex.


9. Orks lose 67% of their games against drukhari, which matches my personal experience - unless you have hot dice on the right targets they just blend everything.

Which is still better then marines can do. So what are orks suppose to be after the codex same win rates vs everything as they before the codex, and 50/50 win rates against the best army in the game right now? How does this make the game fun for anyone who doesn't play orks?



Uhm, I don't know how to tell you... they already do?

check the avarge model cost with a heavy weapon and hammer in each squad.

Honestly, at this point I am wishing that GW totally bombs the GK codex and makes it horribly bad, just as a payback for all the vitriol and bad faith arguments you keep throwing at players of other armies.

As comparing to what DE players claiming their new rules being "okey", or all the other faction player telling GK players to "learn to play" and just buy a castellan and some IG to have a 40% win rate in 8th ed? All 8th tought me about the game, is that care for the state of other people fun, specially those playing armies you don't play, is a foolish thing to do, because they sure as hell don't care about your fun, that is sure.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/06 13:14:28


Post by: Jidmah


I suggest trying to read you own codex before making a fool out of yourself.

I stopped reading half way through it because there was so much wrong in it, not to mention that you arguing against your very own arguments from your last posts. That's not even moving goalpost, that's ripping out one goalpost and trying to break the other with it.

Seriously, don't try to argue about a game you neither understand nor play.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/06 13:20:01


Post by: Karol


Well we are just going to have to wait and see after the codex is out, and how the rules shape up.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/06 14:56:24


Post by: catbarf


Karol wrote:
As comparing to what DE players claiming their new rules being "okey", or all the other faction player telling GK players to "learn to play" and just buy a castellan and some IG to have a 40% win rate in 8th ed? All 8th tought me about the game, is that care for the state of other people fun, specially those playing armies you don't play, is a foolish thing to do, because they sure as hell don't care about your fun, that is sure.


So you're arguing solely in bad faith and should be ignored, got it.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/06 15:02:44


Post by: Rihgu


Yes tell me about all those auras I get to enjoy with my core terminators. I wish to hear more about them.

Considering you get better auras and don't need to be Core to enjoy them right now, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Kaldor Draigo lets every unit within 6" re-roll failed hits.
Chapter Master picks 1 CORE unit within 6" to benefit from that.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/06 18:16:37


Post by: SemperMortis


Karol wrote:

1. DG terminators are 3W as well, and all other terminators will have that many as well. This has been confirmed by GW.

Where did I say that DG termis had 3W? I said that csm, 1ksons and GK didn't. And the will have soon matters when someone says it today and it happens tomorrow. The edition is almost a year now, and only GW knows where GK or 1ksons will be out. Because they sure as hell aren't coming out before orcs that is for sure.

OMG! Ork Meganobz will be slightly better than GK, CSM and 1ksons Terminators for a bit until those factions get their codexs? OMG! how unfair is that? Oh wait...its not.

Karol wrote:

2. He is comparing MANz to terminators because they are literally ork terminators and always have been. They even are in fluff, both marines and orks have acknowledged them as such in-universe.

But they are not used the same way. If a marine army takes termintors, it has to build its force around them, because in general, there are no cheap troops to fill in the rest of the army. When a DG player runs his army, the terminators are a huge chunk of both the points and the strategy of how a DG army works. An ork player can just splurg a unit of meganobs with minor impact on how the army works. On top of it all, unlike some armies, the mentioned by me GK or DG, orks do not NEED to run meganobz. So their efficiency does not matter in the end. If mega nobz gets better is is just the extra on top of the real important stuff in orks lists. If GK termintors are worse, then regular termintors, then this is a corner stone unit of a GK list being worse, for a year of an edition, and there are no signs of being +1W making much impact on how efficient armies are. DA have super termintors, with extra wounds and superhuman psychology always on. They are not even the best marine army right now. And marines in general get worse with each non marine codex coming out.


There is a lot to break down here so bear with me. As we just discussed, Marine Terminators and Ork meganobz are currently THE SAME PRICE. The Terminator is better in terms of durability AND ranged firepower but loses to Meganobz in CC because Meganobz are +1 strength and +1 attack base. So when you say the Marine player has to build his entire list around Terminators and the Ork doesn't...you are wrong. And on the topic of "Cheap" troops. This notion that Ork troops are cheap is just flat out wrong. Orkz can take 50pts of Grots which die when looked at funny or 80pts of Orkz which die when looked at funny. In reality, when an Ork player takes Troops, he takes 30 boyz or 240pts, and usually he takes 2-3 mobz of that size so you are talking about 480-720pts of Ork boyz. That isn't what I would call "Cheap" In comparison, most SM competitive lists feature 15 SM troops between 19-20ppm each so you are talking at most 300pts, or less than half of what an Ork player takes. And to quickly poke a hole in that DA not being great argument, they are great, the problem is that EVERYONE IN THE GAME is building lists to destroy Marines. That has changed a bit since DE came out, but its still very much a popular choice. When I build my tournament lists I focus on the ability to kill T4 and T5 multi wound models with a 3+ save, want to know why? Because every game is a 30-40% chance to play against a Marine, not including Chaos, GK, Custodes etc. Add in those and over 50% of my matchups will be against power armor of one flavor or another.

Karol wrote:

3. They see a lot of play in ork lists, both in competitive lists and less competitive archetypes because they are really good at flipping and holding objectives. They either tellyport in or ride a battlewagon and can have objective secured.

yes as an extra. But the orks army can be build without them. Try build an efficient DG or GK lists without termintors.


DG can and do build lists without them. They recently went through a small meta shift of bringing those little vehicles with a ton of dakka, Jidmah can probably tell you more since he actually plays DG as well as Orkz. As far as GK...bud, you haven't gotten a codex yet, you are complaining that Ork Meganobz with their 9th edition codex will get better than your 8th edition GK terminators. Give it a bit, while I don't like waiting for decent rules, Ork players went from 5th edition until 8th without a usable updated codex. (no codex in 5th or 6th and the 7th was the most phoned in POS codex of the edition). On top of that...its GK, You have 33 unit entries, 11 of which are HQs, I would say they are in desperate need of being fleshed out, but they are just yet another color of SM, give them access to Primaris and suddenly your army list would more than double in size...just from adding Primaris LTs (this is hyperbole...also known as a joke)

Karol wrote:

4. CORE matters little to nothing to orks because we don't have a lot of auras, and those which we have are usually locked into INFANTRY anyways.

Yes tell me about all those auras I get to enjoy with my core terminators. I wish to hear more about them.


You haven't gotten a codex yet...for the 5th time...you are not yet subject to "Core" rules as far as Auras go, and the fact that GK can take Terminators as troops means they will almost assuredly get Core. As someone else already mentioned, this lack of rules atm actually benefits you since Draigo is an even bigger buff/beat stick.

Karol wrote:
5. Not even sure what you are trying to say here? MANz shouldn't get +1T because boy are better because DG are running poxwalkers instead of plague marines? In any case, PM still are decent, just not on a tournament meta level, and people are taking poxwalkers so they have more points for terminators.

No I am saying that orks don't have to run meganobz, unlike other armies that do. And historically any buff to cheap units were a lot more impactful for them, then the buffs to elite stuff. Elite stuff has to stack 3-4 extra rules on top of 2 other rules to even start working. While a blanket now you wound me on +5, on practically everything, is a huge and subsential buff to an army. Just look at marines, they have two wounds, and those auras everyone is so up in arms about, where are the wins though, where are the +60% win rates?


SOME ARMIES HAVE TO TAKE TERMINATORS! See above for rebuttals. You are correct though that generally speaking, buffing a cheap unit has a bigger impact than giving a minor buff to an expensive unit. I mean hell, look at the Stompa, they gave it a 50pt price reduction (I think? its such a POS i never use one) and it had no impact whatsoever, on the other hand, GW increased Ork boyz points by 2ppm, not a big deal...except in my horde list where I take 120-150 of them, so that minor nerf cost me anywhere from 240 to 300pts. Cheap units getting buffs are also just as impacted by nerfs hence boyz being god awful at anything except existing (30 boyz W/shootas, shooting kill less than 2 Marines. in CC W/choppas they kill 6). In regards to the blanket 5+ to wound..I mean, you are exagerating but I get it, you are upset you will actually have to use tactics and skill to remove boyz as opposed to just looking at them and watching as they die in droves, I know, it ruins the fantasy for you. As far as Win/loss rates...I've debunked this 100 times with you, maybe the 101st time it will stick. Dark Eldar at the moment since the start of the year have a W/L rate of 31.43%, Since April its actually gone down to 30% Its almost like W/L ratio is a useless stat and shouldn't be used to judge whether a faction can/does perform well at the top tables. So you constantly harping on Marines not having a good W/L ratio is about as meaningful as screaming at the wind that its cold outside.

Karol wrote:

6. Weapons that are good at killing boyz suck at killing MANz and vice versa. You kill MANz with anti-tank weapons because unlike your paladins, they usually don't have an invulnerable save any better than 6++. And no, they usually aren't protect by a KFF.

Does an army of orks auto lose if it gets its unit of meganobz destroyed, the way a GK army does if it loses its paladins turn 1-2?


So..just to be clear here, your argument is that Ork players DONT auto-lose if their opponent kills their 120pt unit of Meganonbz, but the Grey Knight player DOES lose automatically if his opponent is able to kill his 150pt Paladin unit. Seems like your army sucks if it cant lose 150pts and have a chance of winning...almost like GW pushed out a new faction without any follow through since its just yet another flavor of Space Marines. I'm joking here, but dude, you are complaining that your army is currently a 1 trick pony and if your opponent beats your trick you lose. Welcome to 7th edition orkz. Heck, Nids had the same problem with their flyrant spam, if you had the ability to beat that 1 trick it was GG. Same advice as before, wait for your codex and hope they give GK access to the HUNDRED or so SM data sheets so you can flesh out your army with more than 2 units.

Karol wrote:
7. The notion that orks auto-win when you don't wipe all their boyz by turn 2 is hilarious.

VS which army?
All? If your metric for winning is being able to kill 120 boyz in 2 turns than the metric stinks. I've played more tournaments than I can remember and since I am not world renowned in the 40k universe like Nick Nanavati I clearly haven't won them all, and guess what? I've lost a lot of games where I had boyz left on the board as late as turn 5. This is a bad argument.

Karol wrote:

8. The armies with the best terminators (DG and DA) both have winrates better or equal to orks, depending on which data pool you look at.

So the armies with better and improved rules, and little to no chance of getting new rules any time soon, are as good as orks played out of an old codex, with unupdated rules. Got it. We call this a injured & drunk event victory at my school. Unless the orks get a ton of nerfs and no improvments in their new codex, one should expect that they will get better then those armies after getting their codex.
W/L rate is useless DA have 10 top 4 placings since March, DG have 16. Orkz have 9, and most of those are from counter-meta skew lists. "Oh no, you are double tapping Melta into my boyz...sad day"

Karol wrote:
9. Orks lose 67% of their games against drukhari, which matches my personal experience - unless you have hot dice on the right targets they just blend everything.

Which is still better then marines can do. So what are orks suppose to be after the codex same win rates vs everything as they before the codex, and 50/50 win rates against the best army in the game right now? How does this make the game fun for anyone who doesn't play orks?
W/L rate is a useless stat. In fact, its more useless than +- in Hockey.

Bob the town moron goes to a tournament with a DE army he bought online, he barely read the codex and has to check the rule book every 12 seconds, Bob goes 0 and 5 at a GT. Guess what, Bob just caused the Dark Eldar to have a bad W/L rate, does that mean DE are bad? Because yet again, Since their new codex dropped DE have a 30%ish W/L rate, but they have been sweeping the top tables.

Karol wrote:

Uhm, I don't know how to tell you... they already do?

check the avarge model cost with a heavy weapon and hammer in each squad.
Ah, see this is called "moving the goal posts" where you make a statement, its rebutted with solid provable facts so you than change the metric by which you wish to measure the argument. So i'll see your "heavy weapon and hammer" (Assault Cannon and Hammer = 215pts for 5 Terminators) and raise you Kombi-Rokkitz for everyone Hooray, my meganobz are now more expensive. Luckily I found where you moved the goal posts to, it was filed under Logical fallacy.

Karol wrote:

Honestly, at this point I am wishing that GW totally bombs the GK codex and makes it horribly bad, just as a payback for all the vitriol and bad faith arguments you keep throwing at players of other armies.

As comparing to what DE players claiming their new rules being "okey", or all the other faction player telling GK players to "learn to play" and just buy a castellan and some IG to have a 40% win rate in 8th ed? All 8th tought me about the game, is that care for the state of other people fun, specially those playing armies you don't play, is a foolish thing to do, because they sure as hell don't care about your fun, that is sure.
Spoken like someone who enjoys making bad faith, illogical arguments and than doubles down by moving the goal posts frequently. I won't be as extreme as Jidmah here, I don't wish for GK to have their own version of 7th Edition Orkz, but you argue a lot with no intention of finding a logical solution, its always BUFF MY ARMY AND NERF EVERYONE ELSES!!!!!!. Its a fairly obvious trend. There is nothing wrong with talking about buffing your own army up to the current power level, I do that all the time, but you go well and truly beyond that, you talk about everyone elses fun, bud, you are asking for Orkz to be garbage tier so you can fulfil your bolter fantasy of slaying hundreds of orkz.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/08 03:33:09


Post by: Eonfuzz


Wait is he actually arguing meganobz are better than terminators? bruh...


Termis have a 5++, better ranged options, better melee options, better movement speed and inbuilt deep strike lmfao


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/08 03:40:22


Post by: cody.d.


To my knowledge for a long time Meganobs were more of a sidegrade than an upgrade to termies. You got an extra attack and wound but the termie got an invul, better shooting and the inbuilt deepstrike, but back in the day couldn't sweeping advance.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/08 06:15:40


Post by: Jarms48


Quasistellar wrote:
I was pretty sure before, but now I'm almost positive they'll be 8 points after having seen kabalite warriors and skitarii.


I think this is the best guess. I'm hoping Skitarii go back up to 9 points in the next balance pass. They're far too efficient for 8.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/08 14:16:28


Post by: footfoe


I think you all are ignoring the real questions.

Will KFF continue to exist as it does? It's likely that Big mech with KFF will be removed from the game as it doesn't have a model.

Will unstoppable green tide remain, what about get stuck in? I'm sure they'll get some new buff strategems, but none as plainly powerful as those.

While I can see the simple Stat change making a big difference, it doesn't tell the whole story. Is the question how much would you pay for 1 ap and 1T now? or guess what it should be with in a totally new codex?

Oh, and don't forget to account for the inevitable power creep.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/08 14:28:19


Post by: G00fySmiley


 footfoe wrote:
I think you all are ignoring the real questions.

Will KFF continue to exist as it does? It's likely that Big mech with KFF will be removed from the game as it doesn't have a model.

Will unstoppable green tide remain, what about get stuck in? I'm sure they'll get some new buff strategems, but none as plainly powerful as those.

While I can see the simple Stat change making a big difference, it doesn't tell the whole story. Is the question how much would you pay for 1 ap and 1T now? or guess what it should be with in a totally new codex?

Oh, and don't forget to account for the inevitable power creep.


big mek with kff is still part of the meganob box

people WAY overvalue the kff though it is not a true 5++ only for those models if the whole unit is within the range and only vs shooting. I see people claiming that orks always get things in them but I have been playing since 4th edition and while it used to be where one model in the unit had to be in range not being whole unit it basically means 1-2 small units can squeeze in maybe with a boys squad. in many cases the models saved vs the points cost of the kff mek isn't really worth it.

As for unstoppable green tide it may or may not be there. it has been for a while as a narrative game element. As a game element for scenarios it cna be fun liek space marines having to hold down a space port when innumerable orks are making their way towards it to gather resources before escaping. It was odd to be in competitive play but Other armies do have things that can restore units like tervigons (which are admittedly also terrible). I think there may be a place for unstoppable green tide to stay but I would argue they should walk in from a board edge (mayeb even just the ork player board edge) and not deep strike in.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/08 17:35:50


Post by: SemperMortis


 Eonfuzz wrote:
Wait is he actually arguing meganobz are better than terminators? bruh...


Termis have a 5++, better ranged options, better melee options, better movement speed and inbuilt deep strike lmfao


Yes, yes he did. The excuse is that some factions haven't gotten their 3rd wound yet...specifically his faction, Grey Knights. I've honestly never liked Meganobz as a competitive unit, I own a dozen or so of them but only because the model itself looks so damn good. Durability wise it's not even a contest, and Dakkawise its not even a contest, the only place Meganobz outshine Terminators is in basic close combat, and even then its a stretch because that durability difference is critical.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/08 17:44:29


Post by: T800Necron


Depends on whether Orks are meant to compete with admech and drukhari or not.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/11 11:09:52


Post by: deffrekka


SemperMortis wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:


i would still say the kff gives a 5++ but that the mek chooses what unit gets it rather than "all units wholy within 9 inches" same rules as now for when they are in a vehicle. so rather than 3+ units all protected and bunched up you just kind of attach them to a unit you want protected and move with it.
Than the big mek should come with a 20pt price reduction because that is about the only purpose of the damn thing especially after they nerfed the SAG into the dirt.

Even if was that cheap it still would be a rare choice to see on the board since its only purpose is to buff a single unit with a mediocre save.

 Xenomancers wrote:
There is a good chance that an ork list is going to be forced to take a warboss. Much like a necron list is forced to take a noble lord.

Like OMG...I have to take a warboss on bike! The horor!


"forced", just did fairly well in a tournament without one, wouldn't have helped me if I had one...so no, not really. But, even assuming you have to take one, how would that justify increasing the cost of boys to that of the aforementioned over priced unit "Genestealers"?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
There are plenty of examples where a Waaagh! is lead by a big mek instead of a warboss.
We also have the wartrike as official leader of speedwaaaghs.

In the 5th edition codex you needed your warboss to be alive to be able to call an army-wide, once per game Waaagh! that allowed *all* ork infantry to advance and charge. I'd love to see that coming back instead of him having an aura.


Also, I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. The fact that they nerfed WAAAGH like that was annoying to say the least.


They should just evolve Waaagh! into something more like Orruk Warclans Big Waaagh! A scalling thing that finally errupts, and also effects more things than just close combat units. Boyz are fine at 8ppm with these changes they are getting, I would not pay anywhere close to 10ppm when Dark Eldar and Admech would have cheaper, better troops. I dont value toughness 5 that much and the AP1 is cute on Choppas but some of us run Shootas....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.


Advancing with Shootas with Rapid Fire means they cant fire, people who generally take Shoota Boyz are Bad Moons and Evil Suns. Shoota Boyz also like to krump things in combat, not as well as Slugga Boyz but 3 attacks (assuming 20+) each is generally better than their gun to begin with. Rapid Fire is more of a nerf than a buff to anything Orky, especially when we are an army that generally, Advances and Charges. Id rather be Assault 3 at range 18" than Rapid Fire 2, any day of the week. Rapid Fire serves no place in an Ork army CURRENTLY.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Wait is he actually arguing meganobz are better than terminators? bruh...


Termis have a 5++, better ranged options, better melee options, better movement speed and inbuilt deep strike lmfao


And if we are being honest with ourselves, Meganobz are more expensive.... As we are taking dual Killsaws. Nobody is taking Kustom Shoota and Powerklaw. Thats 40pts a model. Terminators stock are 38pts which they arent bad at being stock but.... double Lightning Claws is a whooping 33pts. The only thing more expensive than a Meganob is Thunderhammer and Storm Shield at 43pts, of which for 3pts more they get a 1+ save and a 4+ invuln.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/13 22:23:33


Post by: SemperMortis


 deffrekka wrote:


And if we are being honest with ourselves, Meganobz are more expensive.... As we are taking dual Killsaws. Nobody is taking Kustom Shoota and Powerklaw. Thats 40pts a model. Terminators stock are 38pts which they arent bad at being stock but.... double Lightning Claws is a whooping 33pts. The only thing more expensive than a Meganob is Thunderhammer and Storm Shield at 43pts, of which for 3pts more they get a 1+ save and a 4+ invuln.


Yep, pretty much spot on. I compared stock to stock as a base point but you are right, if I'm running meganobz i'll pay the extra pts for killsaws any day of the week because a 4 shot Kustom shoota is USELESS. its functionally 2 boyz shooting which amounts to diddly squat.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 14:10:01


Post by: Aenar


Boyz at 9ppm, Snagga Boyz at 11ppm.

The leak is legit as it anticipated the dakka weapon type and the snakebite kultur previewed on warcom today.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 14:53:42


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Aenar wrote:
Boyz at 9ppm, Snagga Boyz at 11ppm.

The leak is legit as it anticipated the dakka weapon type and the snakebite kultur previewed on warcom today.


its is looking like the case, but not completely in the confirmed category yet. a lot of the changes and things there that seem to be being removed are not looking great for orks, I am hoping this is not the case but it may be a 6th ed ork codex again where the new one is worse than the old one .


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 14:56:12


Post by: Jidmah


In that case, I honestly see no reason to run boyz unless beastsnaggas can't ride transports.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 15:10:00


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Jidmah wrote:
In that case, I honestly see no reason to run boyz unless beastsnaggas can't ride transports.


Beast Snaggas are the mathematically superior choice in all cases thanks to 3 additional rules for 2 measly points (they do indeed lose access to Trukks/BWs but you're gonna footslog them anyway as Goff Horde)


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 15:11:04


Post by: SemperMortis


 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
Boyz at 9ppm, Snagga Boyz at 11ppm.

The leak is legit as it anticipated the dakka weapon type and the snakebite kultur previewed on warcom today.


its is looking like the case, but not completely in the confirmed category yet. a lot of the changes and things there that seem to be being removed are not looking great for orks, I am hoping this is not the case but it may be a 6th ed ork codex again where the new one is worse than the old one .


7th edition codex we didn't get one in 5th or 6th edition and the 7th was arguably (bordering on unarguably) the worst of the entire edition.

9ppm orkz is such a bummer, especially since Shootas just got worse in most scenarios. Well, looks like all the Marine players complaining about their bolter fantasies not coming true finally won out :(


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 15:32:14


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Wait what, 9ppm for boyz? But why tho?
Is +1 toughness really worth 3 points? Did they get an extra wound and better armor as well at least?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 15:37:32


Post by: Rihgu


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait what, 9ppm for boyz? But why tho?
Is +1 toughness really worth 3 points? Did they get an extra wound and better armor as well at least?

They got -1AP on their choppas?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 15:38:26


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Rihgu wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait what, 9ppm for boyz? But why tho?
Is +1 toughness really worth 3 points? Did they get an extra wound and better armor as well at least?

They got -1AP on their choppas?

Yeah ok that's pretty useful I guess. Still seems pretty high though for a unit that's meant to be fielded in large numbers and really wants to get in close.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 15:42:57


Post by: SemperMortis


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait what, 9ppm for boyz? But why tho?
Is +1 toughness really worth 3 points? Did they get an extra wound and better armor as well at least?

They got -1AP on their choppas?

Yeah ok that's pretty useful I guess. Still seems pretty high though for a unit that's meant to be fielded in large numbers and really wants to get in close.


Boyz were 8ppm and massively over priced for what little they did. The +1ppm is just to appease the Marine players who were upset that any other faction might get a durability boost. So now since 4th edition Orkz went up 3ppm, gained S4, T5, lost movement, lost dmg output and lost attacks on the charge. Marines went up 3ppm and gained double shooting, double wounds, double CC attacks on the 1st round, AP on weapons depending on turn etc.

this is just stupid at this point.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 15:42:58


Post by: Rihgu


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wait what, 9ppm for boyz? But why tho?
Is +1 toughness really worth 3 points? Did they get an extra wound and better armor as well at least?

They got -1AP on their choppas?

Yeah ok that's pretty useful I guess. Still seems pretty high though for a unit that's meant to be fielded in large numbers and really wants to get in close.

Yea, I'm personally getting vibes that the way boyz are "meant" to be run, between the pricing and other rumored changes, are small units in trukks. We'll see how it all shakes out, though.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 16:02:06


Post by: Gadzilla666


KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
In that case, I honestly see no reason to run boyz unless beastsnaggas can't ride transports.


Beast Snaggas are the mathematically superior choice in all cases thanks to 3 additional rules for 2 measly points (they do indeed lose access to Trukks/BWs but you're gonna footslog them anyway as Goff Horde)

Additional rules for a 2 PPM increase? Can't use the old transports? This sounds familiar.......


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 16:06:09


Post by: SemperMortis


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
In that case, I honestly see no reason to run boyz unless beastsnaggas can't ride transports.


Beast Snaggas are the mathematically superior choice in all cases thanks to 3 additional rules for 2 measly points (they do indeed lose access to Trukks/BWs but you're gonna footslog them anyway as Goff Horde)

Additional rules for a 2 PPM increase? Can't use the old transports? This sounds familiar.......


Something something primorkz.

Bud, i'm getting burned out today. 2 back to back Sneak Previews from GW where they are all "LOOK AT THIS! ORKZ IZ AMAZING!" and than you take 2 steps back and look at it and realize "huh, this is crap. They nerfed orkz".

Yesterday was bad because they nerfed ork shooting and had the balls to sit there and say "its better!" but today's preview was worse because you have half these muppets who think Transhuman that only works on S6 and S7 is great. Guys its a crap kulture.

Than to top it all off, we see all these leaks on Discord, Mek Gunz don't become individual units, can only be taken in 3s. Same with Buggies, boyz going up to 9ppm etc etc etc. Its just not a good day


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 16:12:03


Post by: Gadzilla666


SemperMortis wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
In that case, I honestly see no reason to run boyz unless beastsnaggas can't ride transports.


Beast Snaggas are the mathematically superior choice in all cases thanks to 3 additional rules for 2 measly points (they do indeed lose access to Trukks/BWs but you're gonna footslog them anyway as Goff Horde)

Additional rules for a 2 PPM increase? Can't use the old transports? This sounds familiar.......


Something something primorkz.

Bud, i'm getting burned out today. 2 back to back Sneak Previews from GW where they are all "LOOK AT THIS! ORKZ IZ AMAZING!" and than you take 2 steps back and look at it and realize "huh, this is crap. They nerfed orkz".

Yesterday was bad because they nerfed ork shooting and had the balls to sit there and say "its better!" but today's preview was worse because you have half these muppets who think Transhuman that only works on S6 and S7 is great. Guys its a crap kulture.

Than to top it all off, we see all these leaks on Discord, Mek Gunz don't become individual units, can only be taken in 3s. Same with Buggies, boyz going up to 9ppm etc etc etc. Its just not a good day

Sorry man. Didn't mean to bring you down. Just seemed like a bit of a coincidence.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 16:25:43


Post by: Not Online!!!


I mean Dakka weaponry is not "bad"..*
it's just sad that choppa boyz once again make the run because dakka is not something orkz do seemingly




*Assuming dakka weapons also are assault weapons


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 16:35:39


Post by: SemperMortis


Not Online!!! wrote:
I mean Dakka weaponry is not "bad"..*
it's just sad that choppa boyz once again make the run because dakka is not something orkz do seemingly




*Assuming dakka weapons also are assault weapons


Ive covered this in depth, but Shoota's just got worse in general. Big shootas got better but they were utter crap to begin with. I was hoping for 5 shots at -1AP at hte least


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 16:40:11


Post by: Mr. Grey


Where does it say that Beast Snagga boyz can't ride in transports? I missed that.

Not happy with the changes so far, there are some big red flags in what we've seen so far.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 16:52:34


Post by: the_scotsman


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
In that case, I honestly see no reason to run boyz unless beastsnaggas can't ride transports.


Beast Snaggas are the mathematically superior choice in all cases thanks to 3 additional rules for 2 measly points (they do indeed lose access to Trukks/BWs but you're gonna footslog them anyway as Goff Horde)

Additional rules for a 2 PPM increase? Can't use the old transports? This sounds familiar.......


Something something primorkz.

Bud, i'm getting burned out today. 2 back to back Sneak Previews from GW where they are all "LOOK AT THIS! ORKZ IZ AMAZING!" and than you take 2 steps back and look at it and realize "huh, this is crap. They nerfed orkz".

Yesterday was bad because they nerfed ork shooting and had the balls to sit there and say "its better!" but today's preview was worse because you have half these muppets who think Transhuman that only works on S6 and S7 is great. Guys its a crap kulture.

Than to top it all off, we see all these leaks on Discord, Mek Gunz don't become individual units, can only be taken in 3s. Same with Buggies, boyz going up to 9ppm etc etc etc. Its just not a good day

Sorry man. Didn't mean to bring you down. Just seemed like a bit of a coincidence.


Wait, so....Mek Gunz can only be taken in units of 3? So if I buy one, even TWO 60$ kits from GW they are unplayable? That seems unlikely.

EDIT: the unit size CAP seems to be three, and if you DO take 3, they DO stay one unit as opposed to now where you can take 6 of them in one slot and they split when you deploy them.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 17:05:00


Post by: SemperMortis


 the_scotsman wrote:

Wait, so....Mek Gunz can only be taken in units of 3? So if I buy one, even TWO 60$ kits from GW they are unplayable? That seems unlikely.

EDIT: the unit size CAP seems to be three, and if you DO take 3, they DO stay one unit as opposed to now where you can take 6 of them in one slot and they split when you deploy them.


Sorry for the miscommunication, i meant unit cap. And yeah, its a major nerf if its true. If it is true...I now have the most mek gunz you can take


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/15 17:35:19


Post by: the_scotsman


SemperMortis wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

Wait, so....Mek Gunz can only be taken in units of 3? So if I buy one, even TWO 60$ kits from GW they are unplayable? That seems unlikely.

EDIT: the unit size CAP seems to be three, and if you DO take 3, they DO stay one unit as opposed to now where you can take 6 of them in one slot and they split when you deploy them.


Sorry for the miscommunication, i meant unit cap. And yeah, its a major nerf if its true. If it is true...I now have the most mek gunz you can take


Yeah, I only have 2. TBH I'd be fine with a nerf to them - theyve been The Crutch Unit making every ork shooting unit garbage for two editions running now.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/17 08:04:28


Post by: Spoletta


And the correct answer was 9!


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/17 16:46:14


Post by: blaktoof


The discord boys ppm leak is poorly written. It says snagga boys are +2ppm over boys, so they think it is 11. They don't actually sound sure of it's 11. People then went on to say boys are 9ppm. They could be but the leak does actually state boys are 9ppm.

Edit- having now seen the leaked codex they are 9ppm.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/17 17:43:39


Post by: Argive


do we know the point cost yet ? Id have imagined it be leaked by now


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/17 18:00:21


Post by: Blackie


 Argive wrote:
do we know the point cost yet ? Id have imagined it be leaked by now


It's 9ppm, according to the leaked datasheets.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/17 18:15:12


Post by: epronovost


 Blackie wrote:
 Argive wrote:
do we know the point cost yet ? Id have imagined it be leaked by now


It's 9ppm, according to the leaked datasheets.


Sounds pretty fair considering the boost to toughness and the AP on choppa and increase in dakka.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/18 08:13:39


Post by: Blackie


epronovost wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Argive wrote:
do we know the point cost yet ? Id have imagined it be leaked by now


It's 9ppm, according to the leaked datasheets.


Sounds pretty fair considering the boost to toughness and the AP on choppa and increase in dakka.


It's actually impossible to say without seeing the whole picture. For example boyz also got a tons of nerfs: worse morale, some klans buffs decreased, no respawn, probably no flat S5 (only if they charged) for goffs, no more tankbusta bombs, KFF nerfed to 6++, etc... with all the leaks boyz seem definitely worse than before, now only good in a a few small embarked units. It's really too soon to say.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 16:05:15


Post by: G00fySmiley


epronovost wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Argive wrote:
do we know the point cost yet ? Id have imagined it be leaked by now


It's 9ppm, according to the leaked datasheets.


Sounds pretty fair considering the boost to toughness and the AP on choppa and increase in dakka.


honestly this being the intro of tougher orks i think they overreacted with the debuffs elsewhere. the codex was live on the app over the weekend and most of it was screen capped and leaked all over the web. the newer stuff like suig riders and out new squigboss seem top tier, buggies seem ok still, but the old core ork units seem to have had a lot of nerfs. I am hoping something got missed in those screenshots, the biggest issue now is dakka does not seem to allow advance and shoot so a lot of ork units will have guns that would pick off a model or 2 before shooting and now will just be points paid for in the profile to sit on the model unused.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 16:22:54


Post by: Not Online!!!


So no advance + shoot for dakka weaponry....

Not feeling it.. really not , despite t5 shoota boyz are basically useless then.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 16:38:32


Post by: G00fySmiley


I am hoping it just wasn't part of the screen captures. we should know Saturday and this afternoon at 1PM eastern there is a new orks codex discussion so assumign that is NDA removal time to get mroe info (on art of war youtube). also a live game tomorrow at 1pm so I will be watching it all there


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 16:56:44


Post by: Daedalus81


 Mr. Grey wrote:
Where does it say that Beast Snagga boyz can't ride in transports? I missed that.

Not happy with the changes so far, there are some big red flags in what we've seen so far.


It doesn't.

This is the trukk:



And these are Snagga keywords:



You just can't put Boyz on Snagga transport.

Also, Ghaz fits in a Battlewagon now.



How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 16:57:55


Post by: Tyel


Not Online!!! wrote:
So no advance + shoot for dakka weaponry....

Not feeling it.. really not , despite t5 shoota boyz are basically useless then.


Not really sure this would have made them any more interesting.

As it stands.. yeah. I feel Shoota Boyz should have remained 8 points. If I squint really hard Bad Moons (and maybe Freebooterz) might be okay - not great by a long way, but if you were going to take 3*10 for your Troops slots, its probably just touching on viable. Against basic S4 shooting they are marginally tougher than grots, and they can contribute a dash of shooting (with say a big shoota or rokkit too).

But then my own reading of the leaks is that the days of "here's my list, half is all boyz" is probably over.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 17:00:52


Post by: Not Online!!!


Tyel wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
So no advance + shoot for dakka weaponry....

Not feeling it.. really not , despite t5 shoota boyz are basically useless then.


Not really sure this would have made them any more interesting.

As it stands.. yeah. I feel Shoota Boyz should have remained 8 points. If I squint really hard Bad Moons (and maybe Freebooterz) might be okay - not great by a long way, but if you were going to take 3*10 for your Troops slots, its probably just touching on viable. Against basic S4 shooting they are marginally tougher than grots, and they can contribute a dash of shooting (with say a big shoota or rokkit too).

But then my own reading of the leaks is that the days of "here's my list, half is all boyz" is probably over.


i don't mind the fact that boyz % drops , what i mind is that it drops not because other stuff finally is worth taking / mixing up the playstyle but rather --> these types of boys are basically worthless.

mostly it annoys me, because i intended depending upon price to get myself 20-30 new boys for my trucks in my airwaagh... and i wanted to go full dakka, because dakka


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 17:07:09


Post by: Daedalus81


People are really opting to pass over the buffs to focus on the nerfs.

Kommandos went from this:



to this:



And then they got this handy little guy:



How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 17:20:11


Post by: Not Online!!!


that doesn't change the fact that virtually half of an ork boyz equipment is.... well, once again pretty much useless daed?

And yes , kommandos being good is great, other than as cheap object grabbers but rather as a sneaky elite choice, but that doesn't make shootas anything worthwile really which are far more prevalent overall in the factions.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 17:22:45


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
Where does it say that Beast Snagga boyz can't ride in transports? I missed that.

Not happy with the changes so far, there are some big red flags in what we've seen so far.


It doesn't.

This is the trukk:



And these are Snagga keywords:



You just can't put Boyz on Snagga transport.

Also, Ghaz fits in a Battlewagon now.


How does Ghaz fit in a Battlewagon? Is he INFANTRY instead of a MONSTER now?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 17:30:01


Post by: Wakshaani


Not Online!!! wrote:
that doesn't change the fact that virtually half of an ork boyz equipment is.... well, once again pretty much useless daed?

And yes , kommandos being good is great, other than as cheap object grabbers but rather as a sneaky elite choice, but that doesn't make shootas anything worthwile really which are far more prevalent overall in the factions.


Depends on the Clan. Bad Moons they're still good in, for example. Also excellent in Blood Axes (my lads!) where you can fall back and unload at will, with no penalty to-hit. Being able to ride around in a Trukk for safety, guns blazing, and even being given a bad touch can't slow you down?

Yeah, that's some good Dakka.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 17:49:45


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
How does Ghaz fit in a Battlewagon? Is he INFANTRY instead of a MONSTER now?


He's a big fatty.



How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 18:07:25


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
How does Ghaz fit in a Battlewagon? Is he INFANTRY instead of a MONSTER now?


He's a big fatty.


Oh that is hilarious! And awesome!


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 18:22:00


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


Cuttin' Flames and Breakin' Heads went from always on abilities to stratagems.

Rocket launchers went to heavy while at the same time nerfing Tank Busta's ability to just negate the fact that they are heavy. This is just huge to me, Rocket Launchers are just garbage now. Moving makes you hit on a 6+, how on earth is this supposed to EVER be useful? Did they forget that Orks are BS 5+?

Killsaw is just straight up worthless compared to Power Klaws now. Instead of making Power Klaws not awful they just flipped the stats.

Holly gak they actually did the same bs they did to Plague Marines to Kommandos, have fun with that mix of weaponry on a 10 man Ork squad.

Bikes are for some reason S4 while Boyz are S5?

Kustom Force Field is now only a 6++

Makari's invul save is nerfed...honestly that one was needed.

Killa Kans and Deffdreads went down in points a bit but that is not enough to salvage either of them.

Hey! Something good, Loota's Deffgun is Dakka 3/2

But on that note I am not a fan of the new Dakka rules, since they are not assault weapons I can not advance and shoot with them? I hope there is something more to them.

And to no ones surprise the Stompa is still a worthless pile of junk.

I know that it is not an absolutely complete picture but it gives me very little hope of the codex being even close to on par with what we have seen so far out of 9th codexs.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 18:26:43


Post by: G00fySmiley


only the new beast boyz are S5 normal boyz are str 4 still.

on lootas i don't think they are going to see play, still not a good save that doesn't even get an average of a hit unless in half range. too many points for what it does compare it to say a heavy bolter devastator squad then see why they are bad


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 18:41:17


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


 G00fySmiley wrote:
only the new beast boyz are S5 normal boyz are str 4 still.

on lootas i don't think they are going to see play, still not a good save that doesn't even get an average of a hit unless in half range. too many points for what it does compare it to say a heavy bolter devastator squad then see why they are bad


You're right, my bad. I took a quick look at the screenshots and didn't pay enough attention to realize that the nob was on top. You are right, but it IS a buff to Loota's even if they still aren't worthwhile. I feel like MOST of what I have seen is very small buffs that don't go nearly far enough to make units viable.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 18:43:40


Post by: the_scotsman


I am still extremely hopeful that Dakka counts as Assault. Even if it 's "assault but if you Advance you always count as over 1/2 range" it'd be OK. I mean, they put "advance and shoot assault with no penalty" on both a core ability (Speedwaagh) and a clan kultur (evil sunz) and this is the grand list of all Assault weapons that don't autohit:

-Kustom Mega Blasta
-Killa Jet Melta Profile
-Heavy and normal Squig Launcha

That's....it....as far as I can tell. Eeeeeeeeeeeeverything else is heavy, pistol, dakka, or autohit.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 18:44:31


Post by: Grimskul


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
How does Ghaz fit in a Battlewagon? Is he INFANTRY instead of a MONSTER now?


He's a big fatty.



I like how Ghazzy can just die from rolling a 1 from a dead vehicle now. Or does he just take 4 wounds? I can't remember how his wound cap ability works again or if its been reworded.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 18:54:01


Post by: the_scotsman


Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Cuttin' Flames and Breakin' Heads went from always on abilities to stratagems.

Rocket launchers went to heavy while at the same time nerfing Tank Busta's ability to just negate the fact that they are heavy. This is just huge to me, Rocket Launchers are just garbage now. Moving makes you hit on a 6+, how on earth is this supposed to EVER be useful? Did they forget that Orks are BS 5+?

They used to reroll hits. They now get double the shots at the same exact price and ignore the move and shoot penalty (or hit on 4s if they didnt move)

Killsaw is just straight up worthless compared to Power Klaws now. Instead of making Power Klaws not awful they just flipped the stats.

it's Ap-4 and Dd3 vs AP-3 and D2. Also if you take 'em on manz you get the bonus attack still.

Holly gak they actually did the same bs they did to Plague Marines to Kommandos, have fun with that mix of weaponry on a 10 man Ork squad.

Yeah it's annoying as feth. Luckily you can just...never take the burna, the rokkit, the sniper, the distraction grot or whatever and kommandos are AMAZING. Did you perhaps notice taht they get a 3+sv in light cover? and real big-boy infiltrate? And an extra big choppa in the squad with the breacha ram? for 10pts per model?

Bikes are for some reason S4 while Boyz are S5?

Nope, but they are W3 now. Boyz and Bikes are both S4, but I think with bikes you're probably more concerned with that 10 S5 shots per model....I mean, if it were me...

Kustom Force Field is now only a 6++

Yup this sucks. Realistically KFFs now cost 2cp per turn lol.

Makari's invul save is nerfed...honestly that one was needed.

Killa Kans and Deffdreads went down in points a bit but that is not enough to salvage either of them.

Deffdreads are amazing as quad KMB with a kustom job, or honestly decent as a rokkit platform. You also get quadsaw setup now - 7 AP-3 D3 attacks. Still kind of a meh unit. Kanz I like with rokkits - 40pts for a BS4+ rokkit aint bad.

Hey! Something good, Loota's Deffgun is Dakka 3/2

But on that note I am not a fan of the new Dakka rules, since they are not assault weapons I can not advance and shoot with them? I hope there is something more to them.

Agree if they actually do not work as assault.

And to no ones surprise the Stompa is still a worthless pile of junk.

I think it's as good as it can be while being basically priced out of normal size games. 675pts is fair for a stompa's stats and abilities, its just really tough to justify a 675pt model under like 3k points. It's basically a version of a knight castelan with one melee weapon and one ranged weapon instead of 2x main ranged weapons - it gets 4d6 heavy shots vs 2d6 to make up for the lack of BS, and 40hp instead of 28hp to make up for the lack of 5++.

I know that it is not an absolutely complete picture but it gives me very little hope of the codex being even close to on par with what we have seen so far out of 9th codexs.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 18:57:28


Post by: Daedalus81


Rocket launchers went to heavy while at the same time nerfing Tank Busta's ability to just negate the fact that they are heavy. This is just huge to me, Rocket Launchers are just garbage now. Moving makes you hit on a 6+, how on earth is this supposed to EVER be useful? Did they forget that Orks are BS 5+?


*sigh*

TBs have +1 to hit now instead of rerolls.

They went from 5 * 1.167 * .555 = 3.2 hits to 10 * .333 = 3.3 hits on the move and 4 when standing still.

Not to mention they're also easily AP3 now.

Killsaw is just straight up worthless compared to Power Klaws now. Instead of making Power Klaws not awful they just flipped the stats.


This is the same treatment of CSM PF and CF. This is just missing the flat 3 vs vehicles, but given the +1D strat i'm not sure they wanted that.

Killa Kans and Deffdreads went down in points a bit but that is not enough to salvage either of them.


Kans picked up WS4, ramshackle, and D3 rokkits with no shoot penalty, which is pretty significant.

And to no ones surprise the Stompa is still a worthless pile of junk.


I picked up a huge point cut. Supagatler went from 3D6 to 24/16 and it swings for D9 now.

Also bikes might be bananas good.

Oh and the squig buggy might actually be good now.




How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 20:14:11


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


epronovost wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Argive wrote:
do we know the point cost yet ? Id have imagined it be leaked by now


It's 9ppm, according to the leaked datasheets.


Sounds pretty fair considering the boost to toughness and the AP on choppa and increase in dakka.

You think +1 T and -1 AP on your weapon is worth 1 point?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 20:15:41


Post by: epronovost


Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Rocket launchers went to heavy while at the same time nerfing Tank Busta's ability to just negate the fact that they are heavy. This is just huge to me, Rocket Launchers are just garbage now. Moving makes you hit on a 6+, how on earth is this supposed to EVER be useful? Did they forget that Orks are BS 5+


If memory serves me right, rocket launchers went from assault to heavy put are heavy d3 instead of assault one. That means that on a one, you lose firepower. On a two you break even 2 chances to hit on a 6 vs 1 chance to hit on 5 or 6 is basically the same. On a three you gain firepower. That's if you needed to move. a well positioned Tank Busta squad might not need to move all the time to do its job and in that case you basically statistically doubled their firepower. I think a heavy d3 is a fairly interesting buff compared to a simple assault 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
epronovost wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Argive wrote:
do we know the point cost yet ? Id have imagined it be leaked by now


It's 9ppm, according to the leaked datasheets.


Sounds pretty fair considering the boost to toughness and the AP on choppa and increase in dakka.


You think +1 T and -1 AP on your weapon is worth 1 point?


Well yes, I do think that 3+, 5+, 4, 5, 1, 2, 6, 6+ model with a pistol and a -1 ap close combat weapon is probably worth a 9 point.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 20:36:32


Post by: Daedalus81


Err choppas are not AP1 as far as I can tell with the leaks. Did I miss something?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 21:16:53


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


My original post was a little confusing on what I was trying to say with rocket launchers, I kind of combined two different points.

I dislike that they made rockets heavy because you use to be able to stick a rocket on a shoota boyz mob to give you just a little extra firepower, but now that is a horrible idea. Maybe it was just me but I did have a lot of rockets attached where ever I could.

Tank Bustas I am annoyed with because I loved the swingy nature of Orks that seems to be disappearing. Rerolls with the old dakka dakka where pinnacle ork to me when it came to Tank Bustas. Overall I think that it is a positive net effect for Tank Bustas with the new rules but it is diminishing the thing I liked the most about orks.

As a Snakebite player I am super psyched that everything Squiggy is getting some love but there is so much under performing units that seem to have been copy pasted from the 8th codex.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 22:02:51


Post by: epronovost


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Err choppas are not AP1 as far as I can tell with the leaks. Did I miss something?


https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/05/warhammer-40k-new-ork-rules-da-boyz-is-back-and-tougher-than-ever.html

Here you go. It's pretty much in the middle of the article.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/19 22:09:42


Post by: Castozor


Yeah Warhammer Community gets things wrong from time to time (Lord of Virulence buffing deamon engines? HAHAHA) but you'd think copy and pasted profiles should be correct.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 00:08:22


Post by: Daedalus81


Ah, right. So given the reputation of the app being very off we're probably not looking at the best picture, because the leaks show choppas at AP0. We should refrain from too many judgements until we get the actual book.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 05:17:06


Post by: Jidmah


epronovost wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Rocket launchers went to heavy while at the same time nerfing Tank Busta's ability to just negate the fact that they are heavy. This is just huge to me, Rocket Launchers are just garbage now. Moving makes you hit on a 6+, how on earth is this supposed to EVER be useful? Did they forget that Orks are BS 5+


If memory serves me right, rocket launchers went from assault to heavy put are heavy d3 instead of assault one. That means that on a one, you lose firepower. On a two you break even 2 chances to hit on a 6 vs 1 chance to hit on 5 or 6 is basically the same. On a three you gain firepower. That's if you needed to move. a well positioned Tank Busta squad might not need to move all the time to do its job and in that case you basically statistically doubled their firepower. I think a heavy d3 is a fairly interesting buff compared to a simple assault 1.

Technically, since they have also lost DDD, you don't break even on a 2. But yes, in general you are right, it's not as much as a nerf as it seems.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
My original post was a little confusing on what I was trying to say with rocket launchers, I kind of combined two different points.

I dislike that they made rockets heavy because you use to be able to stick a rocket on a shoota boyz mob to give you just a little extra firepower, but now that is a horrible idea. Maybe it was just me but I did have a lot of rockets attached where ever I could.

Tank Bustas I am annoyed with because I loved the swingy nature of Orks that seems to be disappearing. Rerolls with the old dakka dakka where pinnacle ork to me when it came to Tank Bustas. Overall I think that it is a positive net effect for Tank Bustas with the new rules but it is diminishing the thing I liked the most about orks.


Both things are still there though, since shootas moved to dakka weapons they can't advance and shoot anyways and the rokkit does roughly the same as before.

And for tank bustas, if anything they have gotten more swingy - they can now shoot 15-45 rokkits at their target.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 05:44:03


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


I wouldn't be surprised to see a strat that let's a unit use its dakka weapons as Assault weapons.
Or a strat to ignore the penalty to move with heavy weapons.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 06:16:30


Post by: Jidmah


Eh, neither is worth wasting CP on.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 12:55:25


Post by: G00fySmiley


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
epronovost wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Argive wrote:
do we know the point cost yet ? Id have imagined it be leaked by now


It's 9ppm, according to the leaked datasheets.


Sounds pretty fair considering the boost to toughness and the AP on choppa and increase in dakka.

You think +1 T and -1 AP on your weapon is worth 1 point?


honestly normal boyz were not worth the current price, +1t and ap-1 isn't really going to fix them since they lost several abilities. lost 1 attack at 20 or more models, lost mob rule so are now much more likely to have attrition losses. lost the unstoppable green tide ability, nerfs to da jump, nerfed clan cultured, and a nerfed kff so lackign protection for one max sized unit of boyz.

with all the above and if you took ghaz, a waggh banner nob, and made them skarboyz for str 5 one unit of boyz on the table was pretty good. mostly i see people takgin a few units of them as a troop tax since gretchin are worse . Even then normal boyz will only he there until you have enough beast snagga boyz at which point no point bringing the old ones (they seem to be worth the 11 points)


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 13:00:57


Post by: Daedalus81


Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 13:15:39


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


not the same as fearless. they still could run it just prevented some loss. its not as bad as 8th edition morale, but smart players will do just enough dmg to force a morale check to fail on anything but a 1 for max sized units/ kill 7 (pretty easy with a 6+ even with T5) then likely the ork fails morale, loses 1 more automatically and then rolls 22 more dice 3.5 more losses for morale so pretty good bang for the buck there. kill 7 and have 4-5 more run for morale fairly reliably.

as for waaagh its a 2 turn ability so nice but not game wide (to be fair neither was the size one but usually did come in handy for unstoppable green tide


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 14:06:08


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 14:11:32


Post by: the_scotsman


SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


Um.

So, an aura ability that used to be 6" getting changed to army-wide...and adding an extra +1A to the aura...is a significant nerf?

I can stuff my army list pretty easily full of trukk boyz, kommandos, and stormboyz and basically rock an army-wide turn 1 charge with +1A.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 14:23:33


Post by: SemperMortis


 the_scotsman wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


Um.

So, an aura ability that used to be 6" getting changed to army-wide...and adding an extra +1A to the aura...is a significant nerf?

I can stuff my army list pretty easily full of trukk boyz, kommandos, and stormboyz and basically rock an army-wide turn 1 charge with +1A.

In the specific context I placed it in? yes. Going from all the time to one turn a game and partial of a 2nd is a nerf. Especially since the +1A just compensates for hte loss on big mobs of boyz. GW gave us a lot of "buffs" with one hand and in the other handed us a plethora of nerfs to make up for them. Burna's go to D6 shots YAY! Also, they lost their CC ability, its now a 2CP strat or whatever the hell it is Lootas average 2 shots a turn now...ok, not really a buff but on the plus side its not a heavy weapon anymore! Also, they now have to take a 17pt tax for every 4 models. Its beyond ridiculous.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 14:30:21


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


As mentioned above - it's table wide, which is pretty huge. The original was just advance and charge, which I am pretty sure is unnecessary after you get stuck in.

The morale abilities look to all be shifting to attrition, which are rarely used ( but should be ). Leadership reduction is pretty irrelevant to orks if they're taking losses anyway.

+1to hit is fantastic. Few people ever had the points to spare for a banner. Hitting on 2s with 120 attacks is no joke. That's literally all upside.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 14:38:36


Post by: Blackie


120 attacks?

Typically it's 40ish, as you won't have more than 10-12 boyz in combat anyway, especially now that +1A is only granted in one turn per game.

+1 to hit is fantastic for heavy hitters, except putting all eggs in one basket has never been rewarding, especially for fragile armies like orks.

Boyz don't really get much with a +1 to hit, meganobz will definitely do IF they manage to get that aura.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 14:43:20


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


As mentioned above - it's table wide, which is pretty huge. The original was just advance and charge, which I am pretty sure is unnecessary after you get stuck in.

The morale abilities look to all be shifting to attrition, which are rarely used ( but should be ). Leadership reduction is pretty irrelevant to orks if they're taking losses anyway.

+1to hit is fantastic. Few people ever had the points to spare for a banner. Hitting on 2s with 120 attacks is no joke. That's literally all upside.


120 attacks, assuming the WAAAAGH is going off that turn means you managed to get 30 boyz into CC. To put it bluntly, that will never happen for a few reasons. 1: its incredibly hard to get that many models into the shortened CC range, especially with the new LARGER base sizes. And 2: No ork player is going to run 30 blobs anymore since if you kill 6 boyz the unit than loses another 5 to Morale. GW screwed the pooch with the ork codex except for the Beast Snaggaz who are going to be likely the only competitive way to play orkz.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 14:56:14


Post by: the_scotsman


SemperMortis wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


Um.

So, an aura ability that used to be 6" getting changed to army-wide...and adding an extra +1A to the aura...is a significant nerf?

I can stuff my army list pretty easily full of trukk boyz, kommandos, and stormboyz and basically rock an army-wide turn 1 charge with +1A.

In the specific context I placed it in? yes. Going from all the time to one turn a game and partial of a 2nd is a nerf. Especially since the +1A just compensates for hte loss on big mobs of boyz. GW gave us a lot of "buffs" with one hand and in the other handed us a plethora of nerfs to make up for them. Burna's go to D6 shots YAY! Also, they lost their CC ability, its now a 2CP strat or whatever the hell it is Lootas average 2 shots a turn now...ok, not really a buff but on the plus side its not a heavy weapon anymore! Also, they now have to take a 17pt tax for every 4 models. Its beyond ridiculous.


yeah its wild, it's almost like orks were fairly competitive before, with a good winrate that usually hung out slightly above 50%, and a codex with massive buffs and no corresponding nerfs would kind of be like the exact same mistake they just made with Admech and drukhari.

More Codex: Orks, Codex: Sisters, Codex: Marines 3.0 pls, less Codex: Drukhari/Codex: Admech.

Also, I just adore the dishonest framing of the turn 2 of army-wide waaagh being a "Partial" thing when its...literally 100% of what the old aura ability used to be on the 2nd turn, lol. And no, the +1A wasn't 'to make up' for taking away +1A at 20+ for boyz, that would be the fact that they gave boyz an offensive buff in the form of ap-1 choppas.

Remember complaining that boyz were worthless unless you bought 120$ of them and used it for a single troop slot? That they were basically pointless in 10-man squads and 20-man squads, the only way you could use them with transports, forcing ork players into a miserable green tide playstyle that not every ork player wanted to pursue? You know, two weeks ago?

The new codex is a side-grade that reduces special rules bloat, bonkers crutch strat combos like triple-fighting warbosses flyin' eadbutt and UGT in favor of base unit stats that are actually worth the points you pay for the dang unit. Buggies are good in general, any buggy you could care to name you can take it and it'll be worthwhile as a unit to field - not just a single unit of 3x skrapjets upgraded with the Corkskrew KJ to give them all double fight in melee for 1 single CP. Bikes, Koptas, stormboyz, Kommandos and our various mobile options are good in general - not just single model Koptas converted to KMBs and run in Deffskullz where they get re-roll everything and a 6++.

I do legitimately feel for people who like orks for the green tide. Even if you split your boyz into a billion 10-man squads and stick them in a Brigade with some efficient turn 1 pressure units like Stormboyz and Kommandos to fill your slots, I do not think that's a >50% WR build anymore in a tournament. I INCREDIBLY strongly disagree that that means the codex is in any way a bad codex - if anything, it's the ideal of what a 9th codex should be. Just the fact that I don't have to do vector calculus to figure out the 19 army-wide special rules I have to juggle on all my gak and roll and reroll every single throw and my gak can just be. good. and worth the points based on the datasheets is a massive relief. The new admech codex killed 100% of any motivation I will ever have to play that army. it sucks to play as, and it sucks even harder to play against. A codex where i have to deal with FEWER army-wide rules instead of MORE is a massive relief.

I love how much more comedic my signature becomes each and every day


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 15:00:33


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:
Lootas average 2 shots a turn now...ok, not really a buff but on the plus side its not a heavy weapon anymore! Also, they now have to take a 17pt tax for every 4 models. Its beyond ridiculous.


It isn't beyond ridiculous. Grot Shield now makes it impossible to target Lootas who will likely be getting 3 shots. Showing Off is an extra hit.

12 * 3 * .167 * 2 =12
12 * 3 * .167 = 6

18 hits not considering big shootas. Previously they were 15 * 4 * .333 = 20

Yes, you could do More DDD and pump them up, but combo wombo is going away. Now you get move and shoot Lootas with way more reliable output and an extra 5 S5 hits


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 15:19:12


Post by: Galas


 the_scotsman wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Let's be honest though - 30 T5 models with fearless was going to be a bit much. You lost the 1A, but now Waagh gives it back regardless of unit size so diminished units will still hit hard.


With how many Morale abilities are floating around right now it just made boyz certain to fail morale so you will lose 1/6th of your boys most turns and its not hard to kill 4 boyz to force a 50% morale test. We lost 1 attack but gained Waaagh...except waaagh was taken away from Warbosses as an aura and now its full benefits on 1 turn and partial on a second. So its significantly worse. And to replace it they gave Warbosses +1 to hit in CC.... which we didn't need since we have now about 15 different ways to get +1 to hit in CC. This entire codex, except for beast snaggaz feels phoned in to me. I highly doubt any of the rules team that designed/wrote the ork codex actually play orkz.


Um.

So, an aura ability that used to be 6" getting changed to army-wide...and adding an extra +1A to the aura...is a significant nerf?

I can stuff my army list pretty easily full of trukk boyz, kommandos, and stormboyz and basically rock an army-wide turn 1 charge with +1A.

In the specific context I placed it in? yes. Going from all the time to one turn a game and partial of a 2nd is a nerf. Especially since the +1A just compensates for hte loss on big mobs of boyz. GW gave us a lot of "buffs" with one hand and in the other handed us a plethora of nerfs to make up for them. Burna's go to D6 shots YAY! Also, they lost their CC ability, its now a 2CP strat or whatever the hell it is Lootas average 2 shots a turn now...ok, not really a buff but on the plus side its not a heavy weapon anymore! Also, they now have to take a 17pt tax for every 4 models. Its beyond ridiculous.


yeah its wild, it's almost like orks were fairly competitive before, with a good winrate that usually hung out slightly above 50%, and a codex with massive buffs and no corresponding nerfs would kind of be like the exact same mistake they just made with Admech and drukhari.

More Codex: Orks, Codex: Sisters, Codex: Marines 3.0 pls, less Codex: Drukhari/Codex: Admech.

Also, I just adore the dishonest framing of the turn 2 of army-wide waaagh being a "Partial" thing when its...literally 100% of what the old aura ability used to be on the 2nd turn, lol. And no, the +1A wasn't 'to make up' for taking away +1A at 20+ for boyz, that would be the fact that they gave boyz an offensive buff in the form of ap-1 choppas.

Remember complaining that boyz were worthless unless you bought 120$ of them and used it for a single troop slot? That they were basically pointless in 10-man squads and 20-man squads, the only way you could use them with transports, forcing ork players into a miserable green tide playstyle that not every ork player wanted to pursue? You know, two weeks ago?

The new codex is a side-grade that reduces special rules bloat, bonkers crutch strat combos like triple-fighting warbosses flyin' eadbutt and UGT in favor of base unit stats that are actually worth the points you pay for the dang unit. Buggies are good in general, any buggy you could care to name you can take it and it'll be worthwhile as a unit to field - not just a single unit of 3x skrapjets upgraded with the Corkskrew KJ to give them all double fight in melee for 1 single CP. Bikes, Koptas, stormboyz, Kommandos and our various mobile options are good in general - not just single model Koptas converted to KMBs and run in Deffskullz where they get re-roll everything and a 6++.

I do legitimately feel for people who like orks for the green tide. Even if you split your boyz into a billion 10-man squads and stick them in a Brigade with some efficient turn 1 pressure units like Stormboyz and Kommandos to fill your slots, I do not think that's a >50% WR build anymore in a tournament. I INCREDIBLY strongly disagree that that means the codex is in any way a bad codex - if anything, it's the ideal of what a 9th codex should be. Just the fact that I don't have to do vector calculus to figure out the 19 army-wide special rules I have to juggle on all my gak and roll and reroll every single throw and my gak can just be. good. and worth the points based on the datasheets is a massive relief. The new admech codex killed 100% of any motivation I will ever have to play that army. it sucks to play as, and it sucks even harder to play against. A codex where i have to deal with FEWER army-wide rules instead of MORE is a massive relief.

I love how much more comedic my signature becomes each and every day


I have to agree with this. Theres a ton of stuff I would have made differently with this codex and I cannot know his competitive power, probably some broken as feth list is hidden here. But outside of that I'm surprised by how many units have become much more playable.

Or maybe not. Because that was what I was expecting since all 9th codex have been of nearly the same quality. But I have to admit the "previews" by GW and the "leaks" caught to me and make me start to feel anxious. Like drukhari players I assume? Do people remember how most people was bananas about GW butchering their 9th codex by the previews and leaks and then when released it was absurdly strong and even the not OP units were usable and competitive? Yeah of course we all remember. 73% remember.

And I 100% agree about this codex being "simple" in the surface. You have to call a Waaagh one turn. Thats it. The depth of the mental load this codex gives you with special rules. The rest is units and a couple stratagems.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 15:25:14


Post by: a_typical_hero


 Galas wrote:
Or maybe not. Because that was what I was expecting since all 9th codex have been of nearly the same quality. But I have to admit the "previews" by GW and the "leaks" caught to me and make me start to feel anxious. Like drukhari players I assume? Do people remember how most people was bananas about GW butchering their 9th codex by the previews and leaks and then when released it was absurdly strong and even the not OP units were usable and competitive? Yeah of course we all remember. 73% remember.
I feel like not enough people give credit for this. What's happening with the internal and external balance so far is pretty much unprecedented since 3rd edition. Maybe even earlier, but I didn't play 1st and 2nd.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 15:31:59


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Lootas average 2 shots a turn now...ok, not really a buff but on the plus side its not a heavy weapon anymore! Also, they now have to take a 17pt tax for every 4 models. Its beyond ridiculous.


It isn't beyond ridiculous. Grot Shield now makes it impossible to target Lootas who will likely be getting 3 shots. Showing Off is an extra hit.

12 * 3 * .167 * 2 =12
12 * 3 * .167 = 6

18 hits not considering big shootas. Previously they were 15 * 4 * .333 = 20

Yes, you could do More DDD and pump them up, but combo wombo is going away. Now you get move and shoot Lootas with way more reliable output and an extra 5 S5 hits


They will not "likely getting 3 shots" to do so requires them to be within 24' of their target, and if they are within 24 they likely wont be using grot shields anymore. And I do want to point out. Lootas weren't in a wonderful place PRIOR to this codex, in fact they were trash tier, so comparing their dakka to old lootas and its not a massive increase just means they aren't in a good place yet again. The only upside right now is that GW realized 20ppm was stupid and instead made them 17...but for every 4 you have to take a spanner, so it works out to 21.25pts per deff gun. Compare dmg output vs A Tac Marine unit.

*Badmoonz*
10 Old Lootas, 200pts. average 20 shots, 3.33 DDD for 1.11 extra DDD hits and 0.18 reroll 1 extra hits as well as 3.33 re-roll 1s for 1.11 extra hits and another 0.18 hits from DDD. Grand total of 9.26 hits, 6.17 wounds and 6.17 dmg.
12 New Lootas, 204pts. Average 24 shots S7 and 6 shots S5. 8 hits and 2 hits for 5.3(1/6th chance of extra -1AP) wounds and 5.3dmg along with 0.44 Grand total 5.74dmg

The "Combo Wombo" as you put it was too expensive after they nerfed Lootas (5CP) but worked out to 40 shots, 18.52 hits, 12.34 wounds and 12.34 dmg.
The New "Combo Wombo" is significantly cheaper (1CP) and works out to 12 hits, 8 wounds and 8dmg as well as 3 hits, 2 wounds and 0.66dmg. Grand total of 8.66.

So yeah, the new lootas are worse at range, better if they can get within 24 but not worth mentioning considering how bad lootas already were. :(





How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 15:34:31


Post by: the_scotsman


a_typical_hero wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Or maybe not. Because that was what I was expecting since all 9th codex have been of nearly the same quality. But I have to admit the "previews" by GW and the "leaks" caught to me and make me start to feel anxious. Like drukhari players I assume? Do people remember how most people was bananas about GW butchering their 9th codex by the previews and leaks and then when released it was absurdly strong and even the not OP units were usable and competitive? Yeah of course we all remember. 73% remember.
I feel like not enough people give credit for this. What's happening with the internal and external balance so far is pretty much unprecedented since 3rd edition. Maybe even earlier, but I didn't play 1st and 2nd.


That's because people love to look at past data with the lense of the current meta (where every faction is actually represented in tournament play). They look back at old fifth ed winrates and go "GK only had a 58% wr lololololol" and dont realise the faction spread was like, 95% three different factions, 5% literally everyone else.

that was the competitive norm, FOREVER. Whatever space marine army currently got the most free gak, people would paint their marines purple and swap them between ultras/blood angels/space wolves/whatever typically with identical razorback spam lists, usually Eldar, and then one wild card faction, sometimes Daemons, sometimes Dark Eldar, sometimes Tau, basically never nids or csm. and that would be like 90%+ of the armies people would play if they were into tourneys.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 15:39:57


Post by: catbarf


a_typical_hero wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Or maybe not. Because that was what I was expecting since all 9th codex have been of nearly the same quality. But I have to admit the "previews" by GW and the "leaks" caught to me and make me start to feel anxious. Like drukhari players I assume? Do people remember how most people was bananas about GW butchering their 9th codex by the previews and leaks and then when released it was absurdly strong and even the not OP units were usable and competitive? Yeah of course we all remember. 73% remember.
I feel like not enough people give credit for this. What's happening with the internal and external balance so far is pretty much unprecedented since 3rd edition. Maybe even earlier, but I didn't play 1st and 2nd.


Honestly the main thing keeping me invested in the game right now is the fact that GW has done a surprisingly good job with both balance and giving all factions interesting, diverse build possibilities; it gives me hope that Tyranids and Guard will get similar treatment.

I'm still not sure how Orks are going to shake out but I am seeing the exact same patterns I have for previous codices: Players zeroing in on nerfed abilities and proclaiming the death of the faction, while others argue that the new buffs will make up for it and it's just the wombo-combos that are being reined in. So far the latter group seems to have been consistently correct, but GW is nothing if not inconsistent.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 15:42:49


Post by: the_scotsman


SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Lootas average 2 shots a turn now...ok, not really a buff but on the plus side its not a heavy weapon anymore! Also, they now have to take a 17pt tax for every 4 models. Its beyond ridiculous.


It isn't beyond ridiculous. Grot Shield now makes it impossible to target Lootas who will likely be getting 3 shots. Showing Off is an extra hit.

12 * 3 * .167 * 2 =12
12 * 3 * .167 = 6

18 hits not considering big shootas. Previously they were 15 * 4 * .333 = 20

Yes, you could do More DDD and pump them up, but combo wombo is going away. Now you get move and shoot Lootas with way more reliable output and an extra 5 S5 hits


They will not "likely getting 3 shots" to do so requires them to be within 24' of their target, and if they are within 24 they likely wont be using grot shields anymore. And I do want to point out. Lootas weren't in a wonderful place PRIOR to this codex, in fact they were trash tier, so comparing their dakka to old lootas and its not a massive increase just means they aren't in a good place yet again. The only upside right now is that GW realized 20ppm was stupid and instead made them 17...but for every 4 you have to take a spanner, so it works out to 21.25pts per deff gun. Compare dmg output vs A Tac Marine unit.

*Badmoonz*
10 Old Lootas, 200pts. average 20 shots, 3.33 DDD for 1.11 extra DDD hits and 0.18 reroll 1 extra hits as well as 3.33 re-roll 1s for 1.11 extra hits and another 0.18 hits from DDD. Grand total of 9.26 hits, 6.17 wounds and 6.17 dmg.
12 New Lootas, 204pts. Average 24 shots S7 and 6 shots S5. 8 hits and 2 hits for 5.3(1/6th chance of extra -1AP) wounds and 5.3dmg along with 0.44 Grand total 5.74dmg

The "Combo Wombo" as you put it was too expensive after they nerfed Lootas (5CP) but worked out to 40 shots, 18.52 hits, 12.34 wounds and 12.34 dmg.
The New "Combo Wombo" is significantly cheaper (1CP) and works out to 12 hits, 8 wounds and 8dmg as well as 3 hits, 2 wounds and 0.66dmg. Grand total of 8.66.

So yeah, the new lootas are worse at range, better if they can get within 24 but not worth mentioning considering how bad lootas already were. :(





Yeah, I'm not personally a big fan of lootas in general just because most things you want to bring them for are rocking -1 to hit abilities, but you can at least just throw 'em in a trukk now and basically always be within 24". Don't even really need grot shields.

I just like Tankbustas way more. Same point cost, and anecdotally I've found damage flat 3 tends to cold-cock a lot more units these days than damage flat 2, and flat 2 is a lot easier to get on a lot of our melee units and options - anything with a power klaw, anything with a big choppa, most HQs, etc. Kind of like shoota boyz - even if they were half-decent for their points, what's the point? What do you need a couple extra S4 AP- d1 shots for?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 16:00:35


Post by: Daedalus81


A grot shield that wraps the lootas is thin. Both can move. Bad Moons is +6". Your opponent is required to come mid table to score. There's no reason Lootas won't be kicking off 3 shots most of the time.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 16:02:36


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


a_typical_hero wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Or maybe not. Because that was what I was expecting since all 9th codex have been of nearly the same quality. But I have to admit the "previews" by GW and the "leaks" caught to me and make me start to feel anxious. Like drukhari players I assume? Do people remember how most people was bananas about GW butchering their 9th codex by the previews and leaks and then when released it was absurdly strong and even the not OP units were usable and competitive? Yeah of course we all remember. 73% remember.
I feel like not enough people give credit for this. What's happening with the internal and external balance so far is pretty much unprecedented since 3rd edition. Maybe even earlier, but I didn't play 1st and 2nd.


I don't know if you misunderstood what Galas was getting at or not but it's preposterous to suggest that this is unprecedented in terms of external balance. Two 70%+ winrate books basically in a row is pretty close to good ol' 7e. And I know, the lows are higher and the have nots aren't in as bad shape as they used to be, but GW doesn't really deserve praise for external balance right now. Maybe 4 months ago or whatever.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 16:07:02


Post by: Daedalus81


 the_scotsman wrote:

I just like Tankbustas way more. Same point cost, and anecdotally I've found damage flat 3 tends to cold-cock a lot more units these days than damage flat 2, and flat 2 is a lot easier to get on a lot of our melee units and options - anything with a power klaw, anything with a big choppa, most HQs, etc. Kind of like shoota boyz - even if they were half-decent for their points, what's the point? What do you need a couple extra S4 AP- d1 shots for?


You're going to want a mix of both, I think. Especially when there are no vehicles to target.

4 Lootas do 3.5 to a DE boat. 4 TBs on the move ( for comparison ) do 3.5 as well.

TBs for Gravis, T*, and low invuln. Lootas for Ballistari, DE boats, marines, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I don't know if you misunderstood what Galas was getting at or not but it's preposterous to suggest that this is unprecedented in terms of external balance. Two 70%+ winrate books basically in a row is pretty close to good ol' 7e. And I know, the lows are higher and the have nots aren't in as bad shape as they used to be, but GW doesn't really deserve praise for external balance right now. Maybe 4 months ago or whatever.


It really depends on what they wind up doing about AdMech. Right now DE is definitely taking a back seat. 7e also would have left that 70% WR stand far longer than the month DE got. Will Admech get sorted as quickly? Probably not. My guess is the next Big FAQ, which I have no idea when that would occur these days. September? December?





How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 16:12:57


Post by: a_typical_hero


I take the "here is your new codex, take whatever you want against your friend, most of it is viable and some stuff might be bonkers" of 9th anyday everyday compared to "you might or might not get a codex for this edition. When it releases you have to spam the same three entries over and over again to be viable and even that might not be enough to go to tournaments lol" of older editions.

I don't think it is preposterous at all.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 16:20:29


Post by: Galas


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Or maybe not. Because that was what I was expecting since all 9th codex have been of nearly the same quality. But I have to admit the "previews" by GW and the "leaks" caught to me and make me start to feel anxious. Like drukhari players I assume? Do people remember how most people was bananas about GW butchering their 9th codex by the previews and leaks and then when released it was absurdly strong and even the not OP units were usable and competitive? Yeah of course we all remember. 73% remember.
I feel like not enough people give credit for this. What's happening with the internal and external balance so far is pretty much unprecedented since 3rd edition. Maybe even earlier, but I didn't play 1st and 2nd.


I don't know if you misunderstood what Galas was getting at or not but it's preposterous to suggest that this is unprecedented in terms of external balance. Two 70%+ winrate books basically in a row is pretty close to good ol' 7e. And I know, the lows are higher and the have nots aren't in as bad shape as they used to be, but GW doesn't really deserve praise for external balance right now. Maybe 4 months ago or whatever.


Actually I was recognising GW the quality of 9th books. Yeah, Drukhari were bonkers. And Admech are the same way. All other books are much more similar in power. And Drukhari as a book is great, the same goes for Admech. Nearly everything is usable. The brokenes came from a couple of rules and wombo combos of the awfull Day-1 DLC and some undercosted units wich allready had their price increased. And the same and simple solutions are needed for Admech. And unlike past editions, GW will fix them in tops 2-3 months.

Maybe thats because in my country tournaments still arent popular because covid so my perception of this is just more chill and I didn't cared that it took a month and a half to "fix" Drukhari.

But as others have said, 9th is the first edition were I'm reading a codex and I'm like "Damm. All the units I like , I feel they have actually a place and I could make them work". Also crusade rules are cool. But I hate the cutted fluff, specially the bestiaries.

Of course now people will come and say how everything is broken or whatever but as someone that plays regularly... nah. Thats not how the game is.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 16:42:01


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

I just like Tankbustas way more. Same point cost, and anecdotally I've found damage flat 3 tends to cold-cock a lot more units these days than damage flat 2, and flat 2 is a lot easier to get on a lot of our melee units and options - anything with a power klaw, anything with a big choppa, most HQs, etc. Kind of like shoota boyz - even if they were half-decent for their points, what's the point? What do you need a couple extra S4 AP- d1 shots for?


You're going to want a mix of both, I think. Especially when there are no vehicles to target.

4 Lootas do 3.5 to a DE boat. 4 TBs on the move ( for comparison ) do 3.5 as well.

TBs for Gravis, T*, and low invuln. Lootas for Ballistari, DE boats, marines, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I don't know if you misunderstood what Galas was getting at or not but it's preposterous to suggest that this is unprecedented in terms of external balance. Two 70%+ winrate books basically in a row is pretty close to good ol' 7e. And I know, the lows are higher and the have nots aren't in as bad shape as they used to be, but GW doesn't really deserve praise for external balance right now. Maybe 4 months ago or whatever.


It really depends on what they wind up doing about AdMech. Right now DE is definitely taking a back seat. 7e also would have left that 70% WR stand far longer than the month DE got. Will Admech get sorted as quickly? Probably not. My guess is the next Big FAQ, which I have no idea when that would occur these days. September? December?





Maybe I'm wrong, but I still think the DE issue is that admech pushed them down. The non-DT/Stupid Succubus stuff my buddy brings still dumpsters my Necrons (my most capable army right now) just as hard.

Anyway, to your point, yeah, GW could still do an AdMech nerf, I should be open minded about that. And it's weird that they haven't announced a new Big FAQ structure; I guess because tournaments are only now kicking back into gear but it would be appreciated regardless.

To the other folks, I agree with you, internal balance is the best it's ever been, bar none (and that's great). But I think it's also clear that GW has some major quality control issues still. I was thinking they'd really turned a page but in some sense it's still same old same old. That's why it's hard for me to celebrate them too enthusiastically.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 16:52:40


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

I just like Tankbustas way more. Same point cost, and anecdotally I've found damage flat 3 tends to cold-cock a lot more units these days than damage flat 2, and flat 2 is a lot easier to get on a lot of our melee units and options - anything with a power klaw, anything with a big choppa, most HQs, etc. Kind of like shoota boyz - even if they were half-decent for their points, what's the point? What do you need a couple extra S4 AP- d1 shots for?


You're going to want a mix of both, I think. Especially when there are no vehicles to target.

4 Lootas do 3.5 to a DE boat. 4 TBs on the move ( for comparison ) do 3.5 as well.

TBs for Gravis, T*, and low invuln. Lootas for Ballistari, DE boats, marines, etc.


....but if I DONT move my TBs (or if i, for example, get them +1 to hit by making them Freebootas) I'm actually BETTER at shooting at drukhari boats, balistarii, etc. And the extra AP and strength and Blast make TBs often better vs MEQ anyway.

The only real reason to include Lootas over TBs for your shooty needs is their interaction with Speedwaaagh, which I am really not convinced is going to see any play when standard waagh is so much stronger and doesnt require you to take the very dubious deffkilla wartrike.

Maybe if Dakka is indeed Assault. That's one of the few remaining unknowns.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 17:57:10


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


I wouldn't be surprised if Orks win even more than admech are winning now. The new freeboota trait is exceptionally busted.



How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 18:20:42


Post by: the_scotsman


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Orks win even more than admech are winning now. The new freeboota trait is exceptionally busted.



....it's exactly the same as the old freeboota trait except now it's not 24" range?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 18:24:19


Post by: Tyel


Hard to see the Freeboota trait being busted. It should serve as a tonic against MSU lists (although I kind of feel DE/Ad Mech will continue to counter Orks quite hard, but maybe I'm wrong) while doing relatively little if you run into a few blobs of Terminators.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 20:28:07


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


Where on earth are people getting this "internal balance of the 9th codexs" going on? Wanna talk to my hundreds of Pox Walkers? How about my scarabs and spiders? Pretty sure there are still a few awful choices in the codexs that have come out, just because MORE things are useful.

The Ork codex is shaping up to be more of the same, some really good stuff but a lot of stuff that is still not worth taking. I am very disappointed in Deffdreads being unchanged except for their point cost. Burnas, Boyz, Lootas, Grots, and more are looking to be binned like they have been for a very long time. Trukk Boyz have some play but that is the ONLY way to run Boyz anymore. A lot of the Beastsnagga stuff looks pretty damn good as well as the buggies. The fact that you can put Ghaz in his own personal pimp wagon is hilarious. There are good things in the codex but it is really upsetting to see something like Burnas which were already awful nerfed for no apparent reason.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 20:51:58


Post by: a_typical_hero


Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Where on earth are people getting this "internal balance of the 9th codexs" going on? Wanna talk to my hundreds of Pox Walkers? How about my scarabs and spiders? Pretty sure there are still a few awful choices in the codexs that have come out, just because MORE things are useful.

The problem with having 100 Poxwalkers isn't that the unit itself is not worth it now, is it? Whats wrong with Scarabs and Spiders?

Personally speaking, what I mean with "good internal balance" is that you can take most options (not all, see SM Scouts) without trouble to a friendly game and have a fun match. That was not the case in my area in previous editions.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 21:15:17


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


a_typical_hero wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Where on earth are people getting this "internal balance of the 9th codexs" going on? Wanna talk to my hundreds of Pox Walkers? How about my scarabs and spiders? Pretty sure there are still a few awful choices in the codexs that have come out, just because MORE things are useful.

The problem with having 100 Poxwalkers isn't that the unit itself is not worth it now, is it? Whats wrong with Scarabs and Spiders?

Personally speaking, what I mean with "good internal balance" is that you can take most options (not all, see SM Scouts) without trouble to a friendly game and have a fun match. That was not the case in my area in previous editions.


The unit is absolutely not worth it. Poxwalkers are just worthless now, even a squad of twenty with the amount of fire power that 9th codexs can put out makes them so squishy and slow that they just aren't worth the points. A 5 man squad of Plague Marines is just better, plus I am already forced to take Plague Marines as my troops anyway.

I loved running a massive wave of Poxwalkers because it was something unique that I couldn't do with any other army but now, because GW can't be assed to make Plague Marines more appealing so they just mandate that you take Plague Marines.

Plus, the balance of the game is so heavily skewed if you compare 8th codexs to 9th codexs in the first place.

Back on topic, Orks have a lot of duds in their new codex and I definitely count Boyz among them.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 21:56:33


Post by: Rihgu


Arbiter_Shade wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Where on earth are people getting this "internal balance of the 9th codexs" going on? Wanna talk to my hundreds of Pox Walkers? How about my scarabs and spiders? Pretty sure there are still a few awful choices in the codexs that have come out, just because MORE things are useful.

The problem with having 100 Poxwalkers isn't that the unit itself is not worth it now, is it? Whats wrong with Scarabs and Spiders?

Personally speaking, what I mean with "good internal balance" is that you can take most options (not all, see SM Scouts) without trouble to a friendly game and have a fun match. That was not the case in my area in previous editions.


The unit is absolutely not worth it. Poxwalkers are just worthless now, even a squad of twenty with the amount of fire power that 9th codexs can put out makes them so squishy and slow that they just aren't worth the points. A 5 man squad of Plague Marines is just better, plus I am already forced to take Plague Marines as my troops anyway.

I loved running a massive wave of Poxwalkers because it was something unique that I couldn't do with any other army but now, because GW can't be assed to make Plague Marines more appealing so they just mandate that you take Plague Marines.

Plus, the balance of the game is so heavily skewed if you compare 8th codexs to 9th codexs in the first place.

Back on topic, Orks have a lot of duds in their new codex and I definitely count Boyz among them.


This reads as fairly out of touch with what's good in 40k.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 22:03:34


Post by: Eldarsif


I loved running a massive wave of Poxwalkers because it was something unique that I couldn't do with any other army but now, because GW can't be assed to make Plague Marines more appealing so they just mandate that you take Plague Marines.


You know you can also take Blightlords and Death Shrouds to unlock Poxwalkers. Same goes for Death Guard Possessed.

I haven't run Plague Marines since the codex landed and I average between 60-80 poxwalkers in my list.

The unit is absolutely not worth it. Poxwalkers are just worthless now, even a squad of twenty with the amount of fire power that 9th codexs can put out makes them so squishy and slow that they just aren't worth the points. A 5 man squad of Plague Marines is just better, plus I am already forced to take Plague Marines as my troops anyway.


Poxwalkers on their own are just cheap(dirt cheap) chaff. It's the stratagems that unlock the unit.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 22:15:28


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


 Eldarsif wrote:
I loved running a massive wave of Poxwalkers because it was something unique that I couldn't do with any other army but now, because GW can't be assed to make Plague Marines more appealing so they just mandate that you take Plague Marines.


You know you can also take Blightlords and Death Shrouds to unlock Poxwalkers. Same goes for Death Guard Possessed.

I haven't run Plague Marines since the codex landed and I average between 60-80 poxwalkers in my list.

The unit is absolutely not worth it. Poxwalkers are just worthless now, even a squad of twenty with the amount of fire power that 9th codexs can put out makes them so squishy and slow that they just aren't worth the points. A 5 man squad of Plague Marines is just better, plus I am already forced to take Plague Marines as my troops anyway.


Poxwalkers on their own are just cheap(dirt cheap) chaff. It's the stratagems that unlock the unit.


You know I gotta be honest, I have been playing my DG a LOT in 9th and I completely forgot that Blightlords and Deathshrouds counted towards that...Damn, gonna have to revisit my list.

I know that that strat makes Poxwalkers decent once you get them in but you do it once and your opponent is going to see it coming a mile away and it is not difficult to take Poxwalkers down to a place where they are no longer a threat. I just feel like Poxwalkers were in a good place with a 5+++ but taking it down to a 6+++ is a 50% decrease in survivability, yes I know that they went up to T4 but that doesn't really thrill me. Playing a lot of demons and chaos in general I am tired of how many T4 units have garbage saves, this game has become far to lethal for them to stay on the table more than a turn.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/20 22:52:02


Post by: Galas


Yeah... Aren't scarab swarms like extremely good (by necrons standards, that by this point need a couple of point cuts, but is not like they have some rule-based problem), poxwalkers have a ton of use in some lists and in small numbers in most lists, and Canoptek Spyders, even if not the best thing ever, have seen play in canoptek heavy lists at least months ago?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 00:58:52


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


 Galas wrote:
Yeah... Aren't scarab swarms like extremely good (by necrons standards, that by this point need a couple of point cuts, but is not like they have some rule-based problem), poxwalkers have a ton of use in some lists and in small numbers in most lists, and Canoptek Spyders, even if not the best thing ever, have seen play in canoptek heavy lists at least months ago?


Scarabs have not been good in a long time. They auto wound on 6's tohit, not exactly amazing. Granted I run canoptek heavy necron list so I am not exactly on the cutting edge of competitive.

Poxwalkers have a use as a cheap mandatory troop choice, which is sadly the most valuable thing in a chaos list because decent troops only belong to Imperium armies (Before someone tries to be the gotcha guy, yes some Xenos as well. My point is chaos troops are bad and have been bad for a long time.)


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 01:36:34


Post by: Arachnofiend


Uhh yeah Canoptek Scarabs are one of the best units in the whole codex, ObSec 5++ Scarabs has been a core strategy since the book came out. The Necrons unit that fails the "internal balance" check is the Ophydian Destroyers.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 02:33:59


Post by: the_scotsman


Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Where on earth are people getting this "internal balance of the 9th codexs" going on? Wanna talk to my hundreds of Pox Walkers? How about my scarabs and spiders? Pretty sure there are still a few awful choices in the codexs that have come out, just because MORE things are useful.

The Ork codex is shaping up to be more of the same, some really good stuff but a lot of stuff that is still not worth taking. I am very disappointed in Deffdreads being unchanged except for their point cost.


Well, you know, and every weapon they can take got buffed, and saws are removed, and it gets +1 base attack, and klawz are now free, and it now has ramshackle.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 03:00:29


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


Arachnofiend wrote:Uhh yeah Canoptek Scarabs are one of the best units in the whole codex, ObSec 5++ Scarabs has been a core strategy since the book came out. The Necrons unit that fails the "internal balance" check is the Ophydian Destroyers.


Really? Because most Necrons list that are placing well do NOT take Obsec 5++ scarabs, scarabs do show up in competitive list but more and more this year as 9th progresses they are falling out in favor of wraiths. Scarabs are not good, they are cheap fast moving chaff that can net you secondaries fairly well. Sorry but my standards for what a decent unit is - is more than just existing.

the_scotsman wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Where on earth are people getting this "internal balance of the 9th codexs" going on? Wanna talk to my hundreds of Pox Walkers? How about my scarabs and spiders? Pretty sure there are still a few awful choices in the codexs that have come out, just because MORE things are useful.

The Ork codex is shaping up to be more of the same, some really good stuff but a lot of stuff that is still not worth taking. I am very disappointed in Deffdreads being unchanged except for their point cost.


Well, you know, and every weapon they can take got buffed, and saws are removed, and it gets +1 base attack, and klawz are now free, and it now has ramshackle.


Really? Okay so they got +1 base attack but they weren't exactly hurting in the melee damage department. The best thing that they got was KMB becoming d3 shots, but again this is on a weapons platform that hits on a 5+ and hurts itself on a roll of a 1. With 4 KMB you can expect to get on average, if we round up for the benefit of the doubt, three hits likely wounding on 3's meaning 2 wounds. An optimal target would be something without an invul save and T7 which is a fairly decent amount of targets but on average even at that you are going to average 7 wounds, which in the day and age of Multimelta supremacy is not that impressive.

Deffdreads biggest issue has been that they are incredibly squishy, the game is too lethal for them to be able to even make their attacks matter. Now, perhaps my impression is sorely biased because my primary opponent plays Imperial Fist with a good amount of stalker bolt rifles or Guard, either way they have plenty of firepower to destroy multiple Deffdreads a turn.

EDIT: I just wanted to say that because so many people seem to live and die on the ability to make an argument out of any detail, I actually like a lot of the new codex. The buggies all look to be in great shape, the new Deffkoptas are looking nice, most everything Beastsnagga looks good. There are good things to the codex, I am just bummed that some units that were not great to begin with saw nerfs or little to no change.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 04:16:29


Post by: Daedalus81


Can we pause to admire the Dakkajet?

It went from 170 to 120 fully loaded. Guns went from 3 to 6/4. Lost +1 to hit. Gained ramshackle.

Went from 10.5 hits to 12 for 50 fewer points. Degrades a little more gently now, too.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 05:32:53


Post by: Jarms48



I am hoping something got missed in those screenshots, the biggest issue now is dakka does not seem to allow advance and shoot so a lot of ork units will have guns that would pick off a model or 2 before shooting and now will just be points paid for in the profile to sit on the model unused.


Yeah, I thought the whole point of Dakka Weapons was that it was something in between assault and rapid fire?

Looking through some of the leaked statlines it's either slightly better or slightly worse than just making them rapid fire. Why not just leave them as assault and increase the shots?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 06:04:22


Post by: Not Online!!!


Jarms48 wrote:

I am hoping something got missed in those screenshots, the biggest issue now is dakka does not seem to allow advance and shoot so a lot of ork units will have guns that would pick off a model or 2 before shooting and now will just be points paid for in the profile to sit on the model unused.


Yeah, I thought the whole point of Dakka Weapons was that it was something in between assault and rapid fire?

Looking through some of the leaked statlines it's either slightly better or slightly worse than just making them rapid fire. Why not just leave them as assault and increase the shots?


Because orks can't have non conditional decent shooting? Out of pronciple seemingly.
Because there'd be no reason not to just increase shots by 1 for dakka weapons (probably only really shootas and big shootas that need it) and call it a day.

I guess dakka jets are pretty happy now. tough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Can we pause to admire the Dakkajet?

It went from 170 to 120 fully loaded. Guns went from 3 to 6/4. Lost +1 to hit. Gained ramshackle.

Went from 10.5 hits to 12 for 50 fewer points. Degrades a little more gently now, too.


As an avid aviatork i approve. Finnally i have CAS worth something
Albeit its an odd tendency , the increase in shots and lethality, probably nock on effects from stat changes?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 09:36:39


Post by: Jidmah


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Can we pause to admire the Dakkajet?

It went from 170 to 120 fully loaded. Guns went from 3 to 6/4. Lost +1 to hit. Gained ramshackle.

Went from 10.5 hits to 12 for 50 fewer points. Degrades a little more gently now, too.


Haha, I just wrote the same thing in the other thread. The blitza bommer also drops a mean bomb now. Essentially flying 'eadbut light except you don't have to crash the plane.
There also is a reason to take either bommer, one hits units within 6", the other hits models within 6".


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 09:48:11


Post by: Void__Dragon


Arbiter_Shade wrote:

Scarabs have not been good in a long time. They auto wound on 6's tohit, not exactly amazing. Granted I run canoptek heavy necron list so I am not exactly on the cutting edge of competitive.

Poxwalkers have a use as a cheap mandatory troop choice, which is sadly the most valuable thing in a chaos list because decent troops only belong to Imperium armies (Before someone tries to be the gotcha guy, yes some Xenos as well. My point is chaos troops are bad and have been bad for a long time.)


I've got good news for you my man: both scarabs and poxwalkers are in fact good actually; of the last five placing Necron lists I could find all but one took scarabs (like two took three maxed out squads). Of the Death Guard lists I found that placed in June literally every list had poxwalkers, and some leaned very heavily on them.

You just appear to bluntly have no idea what is actually competitive at the moment.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 10:53:02


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Jidmah wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Can we pause to admire the Dakkajet?

It went from 170 to 120 fully loaded. Guns went from 3 to 6/4. Lost +1 to hit. Gained ramshackle.

Went from 10.5 hits to 12 for 50 fewer points. Degrades a little more gently now, too.


Haha, I just wrote the same thing in the other thread. The blitza bommer also drops a mean bomb now. Essentially flying 'eadbut light except you don't have to crash the plane.
There also is a reason to take either bommer, one hits units within 6", the other hits models within 6".


Huh, seems i missed the burna , dakka and blitza bommer sheets, care point me to em?


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 11:19:30


Post by: Jidmah


Big collection of everything leaked, also keeps getting updated regularly with new stuff: https://imgur.com/a/YC4UNqS

Open pictures in new tab if you can't zoom in.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 11:39:35


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Jidmah wrote:
Big collection of everything leaked, also keeps getting updated regularly with new stuff: https://imgur.com/a/YC4UNqS

Open pictures in new tab if you can't zoom in.


140 pts burnabomba is scary. But the blitza is probably taking the cake against hordy armies....


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 12:27:10


Post by: the_scotsman


Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:Uhh yeah Canoptek Scarabs are one of the best units in the whole codex, ObSec 5++ Scarabs has been a core strategy since the book came out. The Necrons unit that fails the "internal balance" check is the Ophydian Destroyers.


Really? Because most Necrons list that are placing well do NOT take Obsec 5++ scarabs, scarabs do show up in competitive list but more and more this year as 9th progresses they are falling out in favor of wraiths. Scarabs are not good, they are cheap fast moving chaff that can net you secondaries fairly well. Sorry but my standards for what a decent unit is - is more than just existing.

the_scotsman wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Where on earth are people getting this "internal balance of the 9th codexs" going on? Wanna talk to my hundreds of Pox Walkers? How about my scarabs and spiders? Pretty sure there are still a few awful choices in the codexs that have come out, just because MORE things are useful.

The Ork codex is shaping up to be more of the same, some really good stuff but a lot of stuff that is still not worth taking. I am very disappointed in Deffdreads being unchanged except for their point cost.


Well, you know, and every weapon they can take got buffed, and saws are removed, and it gets +1 base attack, and klawz are now free, and it now has ramshackle.


Really? Okay so they got +1 base attack but they weren't exactly hurting in the melee damage department. The best thing that they got was KMB becoming d3 shots, but again this is on a weapons platform that hits on a 5+ and hurts itself on a roll of a 1. With 4 KMB you can expect to get on average, if we round up for the benefit of the doubt, three hits likely wounding on 3's meaning 2 wounds. An optimal target would be something without an invul save and T7 which is a fairly decent amount of targets but on average even at that you are going to average 7 wounds, which in the day and age of Multimelta supremacy is not that impressive.

Deffdreads biggest issue has been that they are incredibly squishy, the game is too lethal for them to be able to even make their attacks matter. Now, perhaps my impression is sorely biased because my primary opponent plays Imperial Fist with a good amount of stalker bolt rifles or Guard, either way they have plenty of firepower to destroy multiple Deffdreads a turn.


Cool - you'll be happy to know that deff dreads now take 1/2 damage from those Stalker rifles, then.

Does that help a bit with the squishiness factor? Dedicated AT weaponry like lascannons and meltas will still kill them, but the thing that's always frustrated me personally with my orks was how much damage we take from stupid bs weapons with a billion shots and damage d3/damage 2, which makes me a big fan of the new ramshackle rule personally.

Deff dreads got a buff defensively (ramshackle) a buff offensively (+1 base attack and all weapons are now Klaws so it no longer has the 2 crappy attacks from the sawz) and most builds went down in cost (full melee dread down to 85 from 105).

In general, melee DDs seem like a decent pick. Amazing? Eh, they probably won't perform quite as well at higher point values as they might in lower point values, simply because opponents will have the luxury of lots of firepower to throw at them before they get to their target. But put a couple of them in a list alongside a T8 threat like a gorkanaut/morkanaut, bonebreaka, kill rig or hunta rig that's also purely melee and I think most opponents will sling their dedicated antitank weapons at that so the dreads will be able to get in fairly easily.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 12:46:44


Post by: bullyboy


Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Scarabs are not good, they are cheap fast moving chaff that can net you secondaries fairly well.


This is literally the issue in a nutshell. You just described a fundamental way of scoring/winning in 9th, and yet prefaced it with saying it's not good.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 13:05:51


Post by: SemperMortis


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Orks win even more than admech are winning now. The new freeboota trait is exceptionally busted.



I would. At the moment the only bright spots I can see are the new Beast Snaggas, and even then its really only the squig riders and the special character. Beyond that Its Planes/warbikes/koptas. Everything else is kind of crap to be honest. And the "New" freeboota" rule is...exactly the same except the range is infinite now instead of 24. And keep in mind, if you keeped a model with a unit near the middle of the table you were basically getting this already.


How much do you think Boyz will cost per model? @ 2021/07/21 15:35:45


Post by: Galas


 bullyboy wrote:
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Scarabs are not good, they are cheap fast moving chaff that can net you secondaries fairly well.


This is literally the issue in a nutshell. You just described a fundamental way of scoring/winning in 9th, and yet prefaced it with saying it's not good.


Yeah, I don't know what more do you could want from scarab swarms?