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Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/14 18:07:53


Post by: MVBrandt


Information at the link, registration opens tonight for all events at 8 EST

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/14/get-ready-to-roll-secure-your-us-open-series-ticket-today/


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/15 23:34:41


Post by: Eihnlazer


Not a big fan of banning things like head swaps and such. I am still gonna go though.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/16 13:34:41


Post by: Rihgu


I can't believe they've gone and done it. They've banned female space marines.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/16 21:54:52


Post by: BaronIveagh


Rihgu wrote:
I can't believe they've gone and done it. They've banned female space marines.


And anything else that you can't prove on the spot you sculpted yourself. This smells like a wildly abusable ruling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
Not a big fan of banning things like head swaps and such. I am still gonna go though.


Get ready for sore losers accusing you of having head swaps.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/17 01:18:42


Post by: AduroT


I like the bits about if you don’t use the official paint schemes for armies you need to submit photos of it for approval.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/17 02:02:52


Post by: Sterling191


Add in the blanket ban on any conversion to represent a Forge World model.

Nice to see GW straight up hobby naziing their own events even more fiercely.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/17 06:38:29


Post by: PaddyMick


I heard there is a plan to put smart-water into citadel paints, so they can test if your models are painted with official stuff.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/17 14:02:54


Post by: Stevefamine


Those anti-conversion rules invalidate 80-90% of armies at events.

Throne of Skulls and the GTs after 2010 were all really mediocre events. Zero interest.

Why would you attend this when you could go to Nova/Adepticon?


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/17 16:10:56


Post by: Akar


Just got my GT21 pack and the same problems still exist. Restrictive lists, limited to the 1 mission, with the complete lack of a Competitive scoring system makes tournament 'Matched Play' a joke.

Trying to remain optimistic that the next edition will fix it is proving to be the bigger struggle at this point.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/17 20:43:38


Post by: BaronIveagh


 AduroT wrote:
I like the bits about if you don’t use the official paint schemes for armies you need to submit photos of it for approval.


Or the one requiring entirely different paint schemes on different detachments. Different colored bases or putting colored rings to indicate it are NOT allowed.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/17 23:06:19


Post by: Irkjoe


 Eihnlazer wrote:
Not a big fan of banning things like head swaps


This cannot be real.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/17 23:15:54


Post by: beast_gts


 Irkjoe wrote:
 Eihnlazer wrote:
Not a big fan of banning things like head swaps

This cannot be real.


Link to the event pack. It's possible they're claiming this because 3rd-party stuff isn't allowed ("all miniatures in your collection must be Games Workshop or Forge World miniatures (excluding basing or scratchbuilt components)" or that “scratch build” or heavily converted models need to be approved by the TO first.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 03:13:16


Post by: Togusa


 Stevefamine wrote:
Those anti-conversion rules invalidate 80-90% of armies at events.

Throne of Skulls and the GTs after 2010 were all really mediocre events. Zero interest.

Why would you attend this when you could go to Nova/Adepticon?


Because there is a growing group of players who support this kind of play. Since things started to open back up, there are three new players in my local area that will not play games with you, unless you have fully based and painted models, and they have explicitly said the models must be real (I.E GW products, not 3D printed or 3rd party). A few smaller regional pages I'm on are starting to get similar small groups of likeminded people. I talked to one of the locals and she said that it's our duty to support the company, not competitors. She also stated that supporting the company is what keeps the game alive and new releases coming.

Will this kind of thinking ever catch on long term? I don't know, but I can tell you that in a small way, it does seem to be starting. At least around these parts.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 05:37:45


Post by: yukishiro1


They really need to make some sort of clarifying statement on whether they're really, seriously going to be throwing people out of the event because they have head swaps, that just seems utterly ridiculous and it's hard to believe even GW is that crazy. Ditto on the stuff about getting approval if your models aren't painted in the official color schemes.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 07:33:50


Post by: Togusa


yukishiro1 wrote:
They really need to make some sort of clarifying statement on whether they're really, seriously going to be throwing people out of the event because they have head swaps, that just seems utterly ridiculous and it's hard to believe even GW is that crazy. Ditto on the stuff about getting approval if your models aren't painted in the official color schemes.


I mean, they have. It's literally in the rules packet.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 07:47:01


Post by: Slipspace


Akar wrote:Just got my GT21 pack and the same problems still exist. Restrictive lists, limited to the 1 mission, with the complete lack of a Competitive scoring system makes tournament 'Matched Play' a joke.

Trying to remain optimistic that the next edition will fix it is proving to be the bigger struggle at this point.


Can you clarify what you mean by being limited to the 1 mission and the lack of a competitive scoring system?

yukishiro1 wrote:They really need to make some sort of clarifying statement on whether they're really, seriously going to be throwing people out of the event because they have head swaps, that just seems utterly ridiculous and it's hard to believe even GW is that crazy. Ditto on the stuff about getting approval if your models aren't painted in the official color schemes.


The head swaps/minor conversions will be difficult to police, I think. The colour schemes not so much. GW also haven't said you can't use non-standard colour schemes, they've just asked to confirm with them if you want to use one. I'm not a fan of the painting requirements, TBH. While I think it's fine to ask that different sub-faction detachments are painted differently and all sub-faction units are painted the same general scheme (with exceptions for things like Deathwing or Aspect Warriors) I hate the idea that you're suddenly barred from using certain special characters because you chose to paint your Blood Angels black instead of red, for example. I also wonder how far this rule will go for armies that technically have a defined colour scheme but it's not generally well known. UM are blue, for example. We know this. What about my Kronos Tyranids? I play DE and I honestly couldn't tell you what the official colour schemes are for pretty much any of the sub-factions. Do they still need to be approved?


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 07:53:47


Post by: PaddyMick


''all miniatures in your collection must be Games Workshop or Forge World miniatures (excluding basing or scratch-built components),''

It would be clearer if they had prefixed that with ''every part of''.

I reckon some head swaps and non-standard paint jobs/markings for detachments/factions will get permission, they just want to pre-approve everything, and that's a bit of extra effort for players, a lot of extra effort and decision making for them, so fair play. I guess they want to make new players with basic armies feel more welcome?



Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 11:40:20


Post by: MVBrandt


It's been interesting reading the feedback on the policies, vs approving nearly every army submitted to the inbox so far. The rules are there to prevent egregious issues; and, since it's a GW official event, not have things like third party proxies.

As an update:

Austin 40k is sold out with a 200 player wait list. We may try to expand.
Austin AOS is sold out with a 170 player wait list. We may try to expand.

New Orleans 40k has about a dozen spots left.
New Orleans AOS is sold out.

Orlando 40k has exactly 1 spot left.
Orlando AOS has about ten spots left.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 17:30:11


Post by: yukishiro1


I'm glad to hear you're approving most armies, but if there's a big disconnect between how people are reacting to what's written and how you are actually enforcing the rules, doesn't that suggest that perhaps the wording in the rules pack is problematic and creating the wrong impression? The reactions weren't coming out of the blue, they are in response to what, as written, amounts to a big departure from traditional tournament standards. If the intent was not to actually make such a departure, perhaps future publications could have a line to that effect, so people don't get scared and think the armies they've used at tournaments for many years are suddenly being prohibited.

Also, as written, things like head or pauldron swaps cannot be submitted for approval at all - they are straight-up prohibited by the only GW product (except scratch-made) language. If you are in fact allowing people to submit for approval such armies, and granting such approval, it might be nice to make that clear in future documents as well, to avoid confusion and panic.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 18:01:25


Post by: Sterling191


MVBrandt wrote:
It's been interesting reading the feedback on the policies, vs approving nearly every army submitted to the inbox so far. The rules are there to prevent egregious issues; and, since it's a GW official event, not have things like third party proxies.


Good to know that either

A) Hobbyists with converted armies aren't coming to your events

or

B) You're not enforcing your stated rules package.

Both are really great signs.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 18:32:52


Post by: Polonius


Sterling191 wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:
It's been interesting reading the feedback on the policies, vs approving nearly every army submitted to the inbox so far. The rules are there to prevent egregious issues; and, since it's a GW official event, not have things like third party proxies.


Good to know that either

A) Hobbyists with converted armies aren't coming to your events

or

B) You're not enforcing your stated rules package.

Both are really great signs.


What makes somebody become a reply guy? Like, do you wake up every morning and say, "I'm gonna try to windmill dunk on blue checks?" Or do you just see somebody successful and productive and just have an uncontrollable urge to troll them? I'm serious, I need to know!

Because, anybody with a lick of sense knows what these rules are here to prevent: painfully obvious recasts and 3d prints that look like garbage and make GW zero money. GW can't possibly care if you buy a box of dudes, and then spend MORE money on third party shoulder pads or guns or whatever. And tournaments want good looking armies.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 18:36:42


Post by: yukishiro1


 Polonius wrote:
GW can't possibly care if you buy a box of dudes, and then spend MORE money on third party shoulder pads or guns or whatever.


And yet the tournament pack specifically prohibits doing that - not only "you need to get approval to use head swaps," but includes specific language prohibiting the use of any components that are not either GW-made or "scratch-built." Hence why people reacted as "hey, are you serious about this?"



Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 18:48:02


Post by: Polonius


yukishiro1 wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
GW can't possibly care if you buy a box of dudes, and then spend MORE money on third party shoulder pads or guns or whatever.


And yet the tournament pack specifically prohibits doing that - not only "you need to get approval to use head swaps," but includes specific language prohibiting the use of any components that are not either GW-made or "scratch-built." Hence why people reacted as "hey, are you serious about this?"



except it doesn't. It says that miniatures must be GW, and that converted or scratchbuilt models require approval. An intercessor with a Kromlech head is still a GW miniature, it's just converted.

The fact that they are filling their event and approving armies seems to indicate that this is clear to the target audience.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 18:55:53


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Polonius wrote:

Because, anybody with a lick of sense knows what these rules are here to prevent: painfully obvious recasts and 3d prints that look like garbage and make GW zero money.


Or, are like me, and remember the bad old days. To me this sounds more like legitimizing some GW's judges nastier behaviors, or maybe trying to avoid situations like the one where Chapterhouse bits ended up in White Dwarf while they were suing them in court at the same time.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 18:55:58


Post by: yukishiro1


 Polonius wrote:


except it doesn't. It says that miniatures must be GW, and that converted or scratchbuilt models require approval. An intercessor with a Kromlech head is still a GW miniature, it's just converted.


That's simply not correct. Here is the actual language:

With this in mind, all miniatures in your collection
must be Games Workshop or Forge World miniatures (excluding basing or scratchbuilt components)


Is a Kromlech head "basing"? Is it a "scratchbuilt component?" The answer to these questions are obviously no. The reference to scratchbuilt components makes very clear the rule is distinguishing between scratchbuilt components, which are allowed, and third-party components, which are not allowed. That's literally what that rule says.

The section on conversions comes after this, and imposes additional approval requirements if you use scratchbuilt components, or if you use GW components from different kits. You cannot read that to say that a Kromlech head is allowed because it's a conversion. The conversion section doesn't overwrite the requirement above, it imposes additional requirements on top of that requirement.







Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 18:57:09


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Polonius wrote:

except it doesn't. It says that miniatures must be GW, and that converted or scratchbuilt models require approval. An intercessor with a Kromlech head is still a GW miniature, it's just converted.


Which, RAW, is expressly prohibited.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 19:04:42


Post by: Polonius


yukishiro1 wrote:
That's simply not correct. Here is the actual language:

With this in mind, all miniatures in your collection
must be Games Workshop or Forge World miniatures (excluding basing or scratchbuilt components),


Is a Kromlech head "basing"? Is it a "scratchbuilt component?" The answer to these questions are obviously no. The reference to scratchbuilt components makes very clear the rule is distinguishing between scratchbuilt components, which are allowed, and third-party components, which are not allowed. That's literally what that rule says.

The section on conversions comes after this, and imposes additional approval requirements if you use scratchbuilt components, or if you use GW components from different kits.


You're making the mistake a lot of people make in interpreting text by assuming limitations that are not there. When the rules exclude bases and scratchbuilt components, they don't only exclude those. It simply stated that those are specfically listed areas of exception. Likewise, the section on conversions never uses the terms third party or GW. They simply say "conversions."

The only clear aspects to this are the following:
1) miniatures must be GW
2) bases do not need to be GW
3) scratchbuilt components are allowed, but require approval
4) other conversions require approval.

This leaves a lot of latitude to the TO on the ground to make rulings. Seriously, you can search the rule packet all day long, it never explicitly says third party components are not allowed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Polonius wrote:

except it doesn't. It says that miniatures must be GW, and that converted or scratchbuilt models require approval. An intercessor with a Kromlech head is still a GW miniature, it's just converted.


Which, RAW, is expressly prohibited.


the fact that you're trying to argue RAW when the same person wrote the rules packet and is running the event indicates that you might not have the best perspective on this.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 19:09:57


Post by: yukishiro1


Yeah, that's just wrong as matter of the English language. When something says "GW miniatures only ( excluding bases and scratchbuilt components)" that clearly does not allow third-party components. It's just silly to say "well maybe they meant to exclude third-party components too, they just didn't say so!" That's not how exclusions work. If you have a requirement with exclusions listed, those are the only exclusions.

The statement says GW only, except for bases and scratchbuilt components. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

And nothing Brandt wrote here contradicts that, BTW. Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks to me like he was quite careful to say that people are overreacting, without actually pinpointing what that overreaction was. The reactions aren't only about third-party components, they're also about rules re: painting schemes and the like.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 19:15:43


Post by: Polonius


yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, that's just wrong as matter of the English language. When something says "GW miniatures only ( excluding bases and scratchbuilt components)" that clearly does not allow third-party components. It's just silly to say "well maybe they meant to exclude third-party components too, they just didn't say so!" That's not how exclusions work. If you have a requirement with exclusions listed, those are the only exclusions.

The statement says GW only, except for bases and scratchbuilt components. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.


The entire legal industry is built around the fact that terms are seldom as clear as they may appear to one party. Most things are not written in tight predicate logical terms. If you think that there is only possible way to read a document, you are almost certainly deluding yourself.



Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 19:23:52


Post by: yukishiro1


The text is clear that third-party components other than bases are not allowed - GW miniatures only, except for bases and scratchbuilt components. Both bases and scratchbuilt components are components rather than full miniatures; if third-party components are not covered by "GW-only miniatures" because they are not full miniatures, there is no reason to include those other two exclusions, they would also not be needed the way you claim an exclusion for third-party components isn't needed. Your reading depends on the premise that they included two exclusions that were redundant.

If what is written isn't an accurate reflection of GW's intent, they should modify that language to make clear what their intent is.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 19:25:02


Post by: Sterling191


 Polonius wrote:


the fact that you're trying to argue RAW when the same person wrote the rules packet and is running the event indicates that you might not have the best perspective on this.


Or it indicates a massive disconnect when a rules package states one thing, and the writer of that rules package says the exact opposite. Quite possibly the only thing worse than bad rules is bad rules inequitably applied.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 19:31:42


Post by: Polonius


yukishiro1 wrote:
The text is clear that third-party components other than bases are not allowed - GW miniatures only, except for bases and scratchbuilt components. Both bases and scratchbuilt components are components rather than full miniatures; if third-party components are not covered by "GW-only miniatures" because they are not full miniatures, there is no reason to include those other two exclusions, they would also not be needed the way you claim an exclusion for third-party components isn't needed. Your reading depends on the premise that they included two exclusions that were redundant.

If what is written isn't an accurate reflection of GW's intent, they should modify that language to make clear what their intent is.


Let's play a game.

Lets say you're a successful tournament organizer, having run massive events that sell out regularly. You then become the head of a gaming company's in house tournament department. You have to put together a rules packet, which needs to balance allowing creativity (and probably some third party stuff) while also toeing the corporate line (that GW is the only miniatures company that should exist). How do you write that rule, knowing that GW won't allow you to explicitly allow third party components, nor can there be any bright line rule for stating how much of a army, unit, or model can be third party? Also, are 3d prints scratch builds or third party? What if you design it yourself? What if you take a design, modify, and print it yourself?

Take as much time as you'd like, and think about how you could phrase. maybe there's a better way, but the reason the rule isn't clear is because the rule cannot be made clear.

I'll bet you a steak dinner that every picture GW posts from these events will be 100% GW (or quickly taken down), while other people's pictures will show all kinds of third party stuff.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 19:32:18


Post by: Nurglitch


Since I've soured on 40k lately, it occurred to me that there's something kind of weird about people liking 40k so much they'll play it with non-GW miniatures. I mean, the game is that good?! Obviously this should be read as 'the game is that good for so many people' but it's hard to really grok, you know?

The reverse is true for me: the miniatures are fantastic, and wonderful to collect, model/convert, and paint but I wouldn't play the game with them.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 19:33:53


Post by: Polonius


Sterling191 wrote:
 Polonius wrote:


the fact that you're trying to argue RAW when the same person wrote the rules packet and is running the event indicates that you might not have the best perspective on this.


Or it indicates a massive disconnect when a rules package states one thing, and the writer of that rules package says the exact opposite. Quite possibly the only thing worse than bad rules is bad rules inequitably applied.


How is it "inequitably" applied when all the armies have been approved?

If you're saying that the rules packet prevented you, or somebody like you, from going, I'll share a secret: they're probably okay with that. People that get super hung up on the rules tend to be a bummer for TOs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Since I've soured on 40k lately, it occurred to me that there's something kind of weird about people liking 40k so much they'll play it with non-GW miniatures. I mean, the game is that good?! Obviously this should be read as 'the game is that good for so many people' but it's hard to really grok, you know?

The reverse is true for me: the miniatures are fantastic, and wonderful to collect, model/convert, and paint but I wouldn't play the game with them.


I think few people really play with other miniatures. Third party components are popular either for weapons or other options that are limited (tau crisis suit guns, for example), or for iconography that GW doesn't make.

There are some people that want to avoid paying GW prices, and seek out recast or 3d prints stuff because it's cheaper.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 19:38:13


Post by: yukishiro1


 Polonius wrote:


Lets say you're a successful tournament organizer, having run massive events that sell out regularly. You then become the head of a gaming company's in house tournament department. You have to put together a rules packet, which needs to balance allowing creativity (and probably some third party stuff) while also toeing the corporate line (that GW is the only miniatures company that should exist). How do you write that rule, knowing that GW won't allow you to explicitly allow third party components, nor can there be any bright line rule for stating how much of a army, unit, or model can be third party? Also, are 3d prints scratch builds or third party? What if you design it yourself? What if you take a design, modify, and print it yourself?

Take as much time as you'd like, and think about how you could phrase. maybe there's a better way, but the reason the rule isn't clear is because the rule cannot be made clear.


If your argument is "the rules prohibit it because GW would never agree to anything else, but in practice they're allowing it, because don't ask don't tell is the compromise everyone can live with" that's one thing, but it's very different from the argument you presented that the rules don't actually prohibit it. They do. If people are submitting for approval armies that violate the rules and getting approval, that doesn't mean the rules allow it, it just means in practice the rules are being waived because it's easiest for everybody to have the rules say one thing and then actual practice be something else.

Which is a situation I can live with, BTW. If Brandt's point is that people shouldn't worry too much about what the rules say and shouldn't spend much energy about what they technically do or do not allow because they'll approve everybody's armies anyway within reason, that's a message I'm happy to hear.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 19:38:14


Post by: Sterling191


 Polonius wrote:

How is it "inequitably" applied when all the armies have been approved?


Because either

A) the rules as presented arent the actual rules

or

B) the rules are presented are the actual rules, but are being ignored and something else entirely is being done

Neither is a scenario that ends well.

 Polonius wrote:

If you're saying that the rules packet prevented you, or somebody like you, from going, I'll share a secret: they're probably okay with that. People that get super hung up on the rules tend to be a bummer for TOs.


That's not what I'm saying, and you know it. But thanks for making it abundantly clear you'd rather just gak on people who want a clear ruleset that actually does what it says it does, as opposed to one where players have to divine the intent of a TO and hope for the best.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 19:52:55


Post by: Polonius


yukishiro1 wrote:


If your argument is "the rules prohibit it because GW would never agree to anything else, but in practice they're allowing it, because don't ask don't tell is the compromise everyone can live with" that's one thing, but it's very different from the argument you presented that the rules don't actually prohibit it. They do. If people are submitting for approval armies that violate the rules and getting approval, that doesn't mean the rules allow it, it just means in practice the rules are being waived because it's easiest for everybody to have the rules say one thing and then actual practice be something else.

Which is a situation I can live with, BTW. If Brandt's point is that people shouldn't worry too much about what the rules say and shouldn't spend much energy about what they technically do or do not allow because they'll approve everybody's armies anyway within reason, that's a message I'm happy to hear.


Well, as I've explained before, if you apply basic predicate logic to the statments in the rules, it states a rule and details exclusions, but does not specify that the list of exclusions is a closed set. Once you start listing exceptions, there are seldom a fix amount of exceptions, because weird stuff happens. The rule is appears to me written just ambiguous enough to allow for some breathing room.

And yes, if the final outcome is that all stakeholders are happy, than that's a win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Polonius wrote:

How is it "inequitably" applied when all the armies have been approved?


Because either

A) the rules as presented arent the actual rules

or

B) the rules are presented are the actual rules, but are being ignored and something else entirely is being done

Neither is a scenario that ends well.


Oh man, I feel like I'm telling somebody that the easter bunny is just a guy in a suit, but... I guess you're old enough.

Virtually all rules are ignored when the people enforcing them don't gain anything by enforcing them. Most rules have exceptions that aren't made clear, and an enormous amount of requirements, rules, regulations, policies and standards can be waived, ignored, deferred, or fought.

One of the secrets to success in life is actually figuring out which rules are real, and which aren't. Justice is a slippery thing, and the best you can do is figure out why a rule exists, and how far you can bend it before somebody takes action.

 Polonius wrote:

If you're saying that the rules packet prevented you, or somebody like you, from going, I'll share a secret: they're probably okay with that. People that get super hung up on the rules tend to be a bummer for TOs.


That's not what I'm saying, and you know it. But thanks for making it abundantly clear you'd rather just gak on people who want a clear ruleset that actually does what it says it does, as opposed to one where players have to divine the intent of a TO and hope for the best.


Well, yes, I do love to argue with people critiquing things that are successful for no gain. Like, why the hell do you care? What's gained by you pointing this stuff out? The event sold out, and it'll probably be a great event. So, who cares?

And, lets ease up on the " players have to divine the intent of a TO" talk. There was an email link, in the packet, for how to submit your army for approval. It's hard to claim you need to be psychic when the rules explain how to make sure you're within the lines.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 20:14:04


Post by: Sterling191


 Polonius wrote:


Oh man, I feel like I'm telling somebody that the easter bunny is just a guy in a suit, but... I guess you're old enough.

Virtually all rules are ignored when the people enforcing them don't gain anything by enforcing them. Most rules have exceptions that aren't made clear, and an enormous amount of requirements, rules, regulations, policies and standards can be waived, ignored, deferred, or fought.

One of the secrets to success in life is actually figuring out which rules are real, and which aren't. Justice is a slippery thing, and the best you can do is figure out why a rule exists, and how far you can bend it before somebody takes action.


I'm really enjoying how we've gone from "the rules package says you can do XYZ" to "the rules package doesn't actually say you can do XYZ, but do whatever the feth you want because nothing matters anyway". That's some dazzling intellectual consistency there.

 Polonius wrote:

Well, yes, I do love to argue with people critiquing things that are successful for no gain. Like, why the hell do you care? What's gained by you pointing this stuff out? The event sold out, and it'll probably be a great event. So, who cares?


Clearly you do, as you appear to feel obligated to defend a situation with escalatingly nonsensical arguments like "just ignore what the event is putting out"


 Polonius wrote:

And, lets ease up on the " players have to divine the intent of a TO" talk. There was an email link, in the packet, for how to submit your army for approval. It's hard to claim you need to be psychic when the rules explain how to make sure you're within the lines.


Sure thing, when the event either begins to enforce the ruleset it claims to be following, or when it updates said ruleset to reflect the approach the organizers are actually pursuing. Why don't you get on that, since you seem to have the inside track on everything going on at these events.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 20:51:27


Post by: Big Mac


GW can make their own rules regarding their tournament, if those bother/prohibit you, you can bypass it.

I can tell you big organized tournaments will not bide by their 0% tolerance on non GW parts, because it is in their right and more importantly their long lasting life as tournaments to be more inclusive to as many gamers as possible.

Concerning why people modify their models: because its personalized, cool to the owner; GW's new mono pose miniatures on models that are popular has something to do with it too; weaponry availability in a kit as well, most kit come with 1 type of special weapon, with bits order no longer available, people turn to 3D printing.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 21:23:46


Post by: Polonius


Sterling191 wrote:
I'm really enjoying how we've gone from "the rules package says you can do XYZ" to "the rules package doesn't actually say you can do XYZ, but do whatever the feth you want because nothing matters anyway". That's some dazzling intellectual consistency there.


I am not sure you are engaging with my points in good faith.

 Polonius wrote:

Well, yes, I do love to argue with people critiquing things that are successful for no gain. Like, why the hell do you care? What's gained by you pointing this stuff out? The event sold out, and it'll probably be a great event. So, who cares?


Clearly you do, as you appear to feel obligated to defend a situation with escalatingly nonsensical arguments like "just ignore what the event is putting out"


I literally explained my motivation in that paragraph, so that's probably not the rejoinder you expect.

 Polonius wrote:

And, lets ease up on the " players have to divine the intent of a TO" talk. There was an email link, in the packet, for how to submit your army for approval. It's hard to claim you need to be psychic when the rules explain how to make sure you're within the lines.


Sure thing, when the event either begins to enforce the ruleset it claims to be following, or when it updates said ruleset to reflect the approach the organizers are actually pursuing. Why don't you get on that, since you seem to have the inside track on everything going on at these events.


As I stated earlier, it stands to reason that this policy was the compromise between GW not wanting any third party materials at all, and Mike knowing that third party accessories add a lot to the hobby. That doesn't mean they'll ever explicitly allow it, because that's not how GW works.

I am baffled that people 1) claim a rules packet with some ambiguity is airtight, and that because of that, 2) the TO is somehow failing to enforce their own rule, and 3) refusing to clarify the rule. If the TO and all of the people attending (and again, these are all or quickly will be sold out) have the same basic understanding, and that understanding is different from yours, I think you should seriously consider the possibility that you are not a lone possessor of truth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Big Mac wrote:
GW can make their own rules regarding their tournament, if those bother/prohibit you, you can bypass it.

I can tell you big organized tournaments will not bide by their 0% tolerance on non GW parts, because it is in their right and more importantly their long lasting life as tournaments to be more inclusive to as many gamers as possible.

Concerning why people modify their models: because its personalized, cool to the owner; GW's new mono pose miniatures on models that are popular has something to do with it too; weaponry availability in a kit as well, most kit come with 1 type of special weapon, with bits order no longer available, people turn to 3D printing.


And 3d printing really starts the blur the line between scratchbuilding and third party parts.

I'm sure we could write a page long explanation of exactly what is and is not allowed from third party parts, but ironically the more rules you write, the more possibility for unintended loopholes you create. Making a clear bright line (if it's GW, it's kosher) and allowing for waivers on a case by case basis is arguably fairer than a more explicit written ruleset, particularly when the person making the determination has motivations to both keep GW happy (because he works for them) and run a popular and successful event (because that's his reputation).


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/18 22:47:51


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Polonius wrote:

As I stated earlier, it stands to reason that this policy was the compromise between GW not wanting any third party materials at all, and Mike knowing that third party accessories add a lot to the hobby. That doesn't mean they'll ever explicitly allow it, because that's not how GW works.


Achem:

That being said, if you’re getting creative with conversions then generic parts such as plasticard, wire and brass rod are fine to use, but any cast miniature parts specifically designed for models must be produced by Citadel or Forge World. Note that this refers to the actual miniatures in your collection. These requirements do not apply to the bases of your models.



Please bear in mind that if we do spot cast/printed parts on miniatures at our events, we will ask you to prove wherethey’re from, and may ask for them to be removed if there’s any doubt as to their origins.


And, my personal favorite:


In addition to the above, we will ask for any models with iconography that represents real military units or political movements in existence after 1900, or adult themed content to be removed immediately.


So, quite possibly, even genuine Dark Eldar and Juan Diaz Daemonettes may be grounds for being thrown out.

I'm not seeing a lot of 'compromise' here.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/19 01:06:56


Post by: PaddyMick


@MVBrandt
Can you submit armies for approval before buying a ticket? Or get tickets refunded if your army is not approved?




Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/19 02:44:59


Post by: yukishiro1


To be fair, those are the rules for Warhammer World, which have always been ridiculous and absurd. The fact that they didn't just copy and paste those rules for these tournaments suggests some level of realization at how unreasonable they are, and presumably an intent to be at least somewhat more reasonable.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/19 04:27:40


Post by: MVBrandt


 PaddyMick wrote:
@MVBrandt
Can you submit armies for approval before buying a ticket? Or get tickets refunded if your army is not approved?




Per Eventbrite, refunds are available until 7 days before the event, and you can submit via the email on packet. You'll get a response before the refund date so long as you submit before the packet-listed cutoff.

Be aware there are only a handful of 40k spots left in New Orleans and Sigmar in Orlando. Everything else is sold out.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/19 06:54:33


Post by: PaddyMick


Thanks, and apologies, I should of made it clear it was a theoretical question for the purposes of this discussion. Seems fair, and if that's the case, no-one can really complain imo.

So here's a question you maybe cannot or will not answer - if Polonius is right - feel free to ignore it! : Have you approved any armies that have used any third-party parts for conversions?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
To be fair, those are the rules for Warhammer World, which have always been ridiculous and absurd. The fact that they didn't just copy and paste those rules for these tournaments suggests some level of realization at how unreasonable they are, and presumably an intent to be at least somewhat more reasonable.


That's interesting, and reminds of something Pacific said in another thread in Tournament Discussions:

Think it's possibly even less of an issue than the 'no non-GW parts or conversions' thing that comes up all the time. In practice, you might be very unlucky and bump into a jobsworth that is having a bad day. In most cases I don't think people care. I've used completely non-GW minis in Warhammer world before on their tables, and a chap I know had his army (which was substantially non-GW bits and self sculpted) actually put on display there after some of the guys working there liked the look of it. Again, I don't think it's an issue, unless you try make it one.


I wonder as well, if the gamers who are likely using 3rd party parts are mostly experienced hobbyist who have been around the block and know the score when it comes to this kind of thing.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/19 12:34:19


Post by: stratigo


Togusa wrote:
 Stevefamine wrote:
Those anti-conversion rules invalidate 80-90% of armies at events.

Throne of Skulls and the GTs after 2010 were all really mediocre events. Zero interest.

Why would you attend this when you could go to Nova/Adepticon?


Because there is a growing group of players who support this kind of play. Since things started to open back up, there are three new players in my local area that will not play games with you, unless you have fully based and painted models, and they have explicitly said the models must be real (I.E GW products, not 3D printed or 3rd party). A few smaller regional pages I'm on are starting to get similar small groups of likeminded people. I talked to one of the locals and she said that it's our duty to support the company, not competitors. She also stated that supporting the company is what keeps the game alive and new releases coming.

Will this kind of thinking ever catch on long term? I don't know, but I can tell you that in a small way, it does seem to be starting. At least around these parts.


I hope not.

I mean as someone who has all... uh... some third party shields for my rivendel warriors (cause they don't come with shields) this isn't really a big deal to me, but this mindset is terrifying. Like it's literally dystopian.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm glad to hear you're approving most armies, but if there's a big disconnect between how people are reacting to what's written and how you are actually enforcing the rules, doesn't that suggest that perhaps the wording in the rules pack is problematic and creating the wrong impression? The reactions weren't coming out of the blue, they are in response to what, as written, amounts to a big departure from traditional tournament standards. If the intent was not to actually make such a departure, perhaps future publications could have a line to that effect, so people don't get scared and think the armies they've used at tournaments for many years are suddenly being prohibited.

Also, as written, things like head or pauldron swaps cannot be submitted for approval at all - they are straight-up prohibited by the only GW product (except scratch-made) language. If you are in fact allowing people to submit for approval such armies, and granting such approval, it might be nice to make that clear in future documents as well, to avoid confusion and panic.


I mean, welcome to modern concept of legal enforcement. Make it increasingly difficult to be in compliance with the rules or laws, thus giving an excuse for authorities to, well, do bad things because it's very difficult to be in actual compliance with all laws or policies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Since I've soured on 40k lately, it occurred to me that there's something kind of weird about people liking 40k so much they'll play it with non-GW miniatures. I mean, the game is that good?! Obviously this should be read as 'the game is that good for so many people' but it's hard to really grok, you know?

The reverse is true for me: the miniatures are fantastic, and wonderful to collect, model/convert, and paint but I wouldn't play the game with them.



I know a lot of people with space marines that have third party shoulder pads.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/19 18:13:24


Post by: Nurglitch


Nothing dystopian about requiring people attending your business to buy your products. I mean, typically you're not permitted to bring your own food into a restaurant or movie theatre either. Or condiments, I believe, if we can make an analogy to Space Marine shoulder pads.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/19 18:38:45


Post by: yukishiro1


No restaurant is going to throw you out for bringing your own mustard if you don't like the brand they offer.

Head and pauldron swaps have traditionally been allowed in the hobby because (1) you buy the original GW stuff anyway, so it's not costing GW anything in lost sales, and (2) GW doesn't make those products, so you couldn't buy them from GW even if you wanted to. Add to that the embrace GW used to give to customizing your armies, and it's a rare hobby veteran who has armies that don't have some third-party bits in them here and there.




Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/19 18:50:48


Post by: jeff white


 Polonius wrote:

Spoiler:
Sterling191 wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:
It's been interesting reading the feedback on the policies, vs approving nearly every army submitted to the inbox so far. The rules are there to prevent egregious issues; and, since it's a GW official event, not have things like third party proxies.


Good to know that either

A) Hobbyists with converted armies aren't coming to your events

or

B) You're not enforcing your stated rules package.

Both are really great signs.


What makes somebody become a reply guy? Like, do you wake up every morning and say, "I'm gonna try to windmill dunk on blue checks?" Or do you just see somebody successful and productive and just have an uncontrollable urge to troll them? I'm serious, I need to know!

Because, anybody with a lick of sense knows what these rules are here to prevent: painfully obvious recasts and 3d prints that look like garbage and make GW zero money. GW can't possibly care if you buy a box of dudes, and then spend MORE money on third party shoulder pads or guns or whatever. And tournaments want good looking armies.
well, I was unclear, given the wording, and the IP madness that has put an a in front of elf ...


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/20 01:30:19


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Nurglitch wrote:
Nothing dystopian about requiring people attending your business to buy your products. .


Sorry, but if you have headswaps, you did buy their product. You know, fifteen years later, and people are still white knighting for games workshop like abused spouses, no matter what insane bs they pull this time. Do you know why they allow hand sculpted bits but not cast bits? So they can steal the design, call it their own intellectual property and not even give you credit. If it's some other persons design, they might end up getting sued by another company that can take them to court and not get crushed like you would if you tried to sue them over it.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/20 02:08:36


Post by: AegisFate


I think the most likely reasoning for some of the implied harshness of the ruling has nothing to do with whether they want you to only play GW product or not, but wholly with how they're going to be using the event to advertise themselves further. To use someone else's products in your own marketing material is a nightmare of having to find, accredit and get permission to use said images, and that's just on the basic principle of legality. We all know GW is gonna be showing a ton of pics from this, and legal probably blatantly told them to keep it all their product or its just someone getting an idea and a lawyer away from being even more expensive.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/20 03:47:51


Post by: BaronIveagh


 AegisFate wrote:
I think the most likely reasoning for some of the implied harshness of the ruling has nothing to do with whether they want you to only play GW product or not, but wholly with how they're going to be using the event to advertise themselves further.


I'm gonna say probably not, since they're allowing stuff you, personally, made. Under the law they'd still have to accredit you, even if they're playing the 'derivative works' angle. Further, and I think that I pointed this out earlier, GW has never had a problem using someone else's IP in their promotional materials before. To a degree that makes me suspect that the Blood Ravens are members of the advertising department.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/20 11:29:59


Post by: stratigo


 Nurglitch wrote:
Nothing dystopian about requiring people attending your business to buy your products. I mean, typically you're not permitted to bring your own food into a restaurant or movie theatre either. Or condiments, I believe, if we can make an analogy to Space Marine shoulder pads.


Tis quite dystopian though if someone sees you eating food and says "You aren't eating at chain X, where's your brand loyalty?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AegisFate wrote:
I think the most likely reasoning for some of the implied harshness of the ruling has nothing to do with whether they want you to only play GW product or not, but wholly with how they're going to be using the event to advertise themselves further. To use someone else's products in your own marketing material is a nightmare of having to find, accredit and get permission to use said images, and that's just on the basic principle of legality. We all know GW is gonna be showing a ton of pics from this, and legal probably blatantly told them to keep it all their product or its just someone getting an idea and a lawyer away from being even more expensive.


They're also not going to enforce it strictly. Unless a staff member just doesn't like you, then it's a great excuse to have you ejected.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/20 19:01:31


Post by: Nurglitch


yukishiro1 wrote:
No restaurant is going to throw you out for bringing your own mustard if you don't like the brand they offer.

Head and pauldron swaps have traditionally been allowed in the hobby because (1) you buy the original GW stuff anyway, so it's not costing GW anything in lost sales, and (2) GW doesn't make those products, so you couldn't buy them from GW even if you wanted to. Add to that the embrace GW used to give to customizing your armies, and it's a rare hobby veteran who has armies that don't have some third-party bits in them here and there.

Perhaps amusingly I have several armies that don't have third-party bits in them (SMx2, CSM, Tyranids, AM, Orks). But as Polonius points out, it's a matter of discretion.

@stratigo: Nope, it's not dystopian. That's just how these things work. And you know what? Likewise the rules exist so that the organizers can boot you out at their discretion.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Nothing dystopian about requiring people attending your business to buy your products. .


Sorry, but if you have headswaps, you did buy their product. You know, fifteen years later, and people are still white knighting for games workshop like abused spouses, no matter what insane bs they pull this time. Do you know why they allow hand sculpted bits but not cast bits? So they can steal the design, call it their own intellectual property and not even give you credit. If it's some other persons design, they might end up getting sued by another company that can take them to court and not get crushed like you would if you tried to sue them over it.

White-knighting? I don't play in GW tournaments anymore. I haven't played since the summer of 2019. I'm just pointing out that it's their house and their rules. The game isn't my thing anymore, and I could gripe about it until the cows come home, but if you don't want to play by their rules in their house go do something else. I mean, they change the rules so that your army isn't valid anymore, due to rules or modelling or something? Take a hint and go do something you might actually enjoy.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/20 20:47:03


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Nurglitch wrote:

White-knighting? I don't play in GW tournaments anymore. I haven't played since the summer of 2019. I'm just pointing out that it's their house and their rules. The game isn't my thing anymore, and I could gripe about it until the cows come home, but if you don't want to play by their rules in their house go do something else.


I haven't played in one since a decade before you last did then.

 Nurglitch wrote:

I mean, they change the rules so that your army isn't valid anymore, due to rules or modelling or something?


Do you seriously think that I'd have as much beef with them as I do if it were something that silly? I mean, seriously, between GW threatening me with legal action, and the entire BFG debacle, I don't think it unfair at all for my to see this as a return to form for them. It's ironic, but they made the old Flash Gits animation relevant again.






Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/21 00:53:27


Post by: Nurglitch


@BaronIveagh

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly: GW copied your work and then legally intimidated you over that work? Is that correct?


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/21 14:40:14


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Nurglitch wrote:
@BaronIveagh

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly: GW copied your work and then legally intimidated you over that work? Is that correct?


Oh, no, it was far weirder than that, though there was aspects of that too, since they further claimed all the fan made material we hosted as their IP.

I used to run Dark Reign, back when 40k role play was a thing. When GW started basically mass mailing Cease & Desist orders (chapterhouse being the most famous victim of that spree, and one of the few to bother to fight it), we got one for the terrible offense of endorsing and recommending GW and FFGs products, and were ordered to cease and deist that immediately.

I don't think they thought that through very well.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/21 14:50:08


Post by: Nurglitch


It seems to be working out for them.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/21 17:04:19


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Nurglitch wrote:
It seems to be working out for them.


Really? Because Black Industries, FFG, and Ulisses Spiele's RPGs are *all* now over at cubicle7 and apparently no new materials are being produced. Their entire RPG line is, effectively, defunct. So, how well did it work again?


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/21 17:37:01


Post by: Nurglitch


Again, really well because they're making money hand over fist.

Something going on over in Twitter board gaming is the notion of curating your followers, where 'curating' means checking your followers and making sure they're not trolls or politically incorrect. Seems weird eh, blocking people who're interested in your product? The weird thing is that once you get rid of these people, suddenly the space becomes much more welcoming for people that don't want to put up with trolls in their hobbies. It's counter-intuitive, but very much like how GW is pushing out all the third-parties, what they're doing is making things more welcoming for people who just want GW stuff.

You don't have to like it, and if you don't feel welcome I think there would be a ton of manufacturers and content-providers out there that would love to have you as a fanatic.

That said, yeah, it's really hard to let go. I haven't managed to yet as I still enjoy the painting, modelling, and novel-reading even if the game, lore, and fandom isn't my thing anymore.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/21 18:04:08


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Nurglitch wrote:
Again, really well because they're making money hand over fist.


Not with RPGs they're not (which was the point). What stockholders value GW is their (mostly stolen) IP. Eventually they'll screw up and steal from someone big enough to fight them. It's why they've renamed and changed so much gak over the last few years, in a desperate attempt to make their IP actually copyrightable, after the ChapterHouse case showed just how flimsy their claim of copyright is.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/21 18:43:42


Post by: Nurglitch


Cool. In the meantime this is about a tournament they're running for one of their games.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/21 19:06:03


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Nurglitch wrote:
Cool. In the meantime this is about a tournament they're running for one of their games.


And, going all the way back to my point about that, this is the sort of policy that should have rightly remained in the pre-Roundtree era. GW having anti-customer policies is nothing new, but the fact that when they mostly abandoned them, business picked up, is not something they apparently noticed.. This policy seems like a throw back to an earlier, more idiotic, GW.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/21 20:50:42


Post by: Nurglitch


You don't have to buy the tickets if you don't want to go.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/21 21:25:45


Post by: gorgon


If I was still active in tournament play, I guess I could pretend like I don't know exactly what they're trying to rein in. It'd be easy enough to make extreme readings of their guidelines and manufacture some outrage about events that I likely wouldn't be able to attend anyway.

But I don't play in 40K tournaments anymore and have no axe to grind against the company. So I hope everyone at those sold-out tournaments has a great time.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/22 01:16:15


Post by: stratigo


 Nurglitch wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
No restaurant is going to throw you out for bringing your own mustard if you don't like the brand they offer.

Head and pauldron swaps have traditionally been allowed in the hobby because (1) you buy the original GW stuff anyway, so it's not costing GW anything in lost sales, and (2) GW doesn't make those products, so you couldn't buy them from GW even if you wanted to. Add to that the embrace GW used to give to customizing your armies, and it's a rare hobby veteran who has armies that don't have some third-party bits in them here and there.

Perhaps amusingly I have several armies that don't have third-party bits in them (SMx2, CSM, Tyranids, AM, Orks). But as Polonius points out, it's a matter of discretion.

@stratigo: Nope, it's not dystopian. That's just how these things work. And you know what? Likewise the rules exist so that the organizers can boot you out at their discretion.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Nothing dystopian about requiring people attending your business to buy your products. .


Sorry, but if you have headswaps, you did buy their product. You know, fifteen years later, and people are still white knighting for games workshop like abused spouses, no matter what insane bs they pull this time. Do you know why they allow hand sculpted bits but not cast bits? So they can steal the design, call it their own intellectual property and not even give you credit. If it's some other persons design, they might end up getting sued by another company that can take them to court and not get crushed like you would if you tried to sue them over it.

White-knighting? I don't play in GW tournaments anymore. I haven't played since the summer of 2019. I'm just pointing out that it's their house and their rules. The game isn't my thing anymore, and I could gripe about it until the cows come home, but if you don't want to play by their rules in their house go do something else. I mean, they change the rules so that your army isn't valid anymore, due to rules or modelling or something? Take a hint and go do something you might actually enjoy.


Real life has indeed slid increasingly into corporate dystopia, yes. How neat of you to notice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Again, really well because they're making money hand over fist.


Not with RPGs they're not (which was the point). What stockholders value GW is their (mostly stolen) IP. Eventually they'll screw up and steal from someone big enough to fight them. It's why they've renamed and changed so much gak over the last few years, in a desperate attempt to make their IP actually copyrightable, after the ChapterHouse case showed just how flimsy their claim of copyright is.


Most of the renaming is because word like imperial guard or space marines aren't trademarkable and the courts laughed GW's attempts to argue they were out.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/22 04:02:20


Post by: Byte


Fantastic!


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/22 06:43:01


Post by: KingmanHighborn


Nurglitch wrote:Since I've soured on 40k lately, it occurred to me that there's something kind of weird about people liking 40k so much they'll play it with non-GW miniatures. I mean, the game is that good?! Obviously this should be read as 'the game is that good for so many people' but it's hard to really grok, you know?

The reverse is true for me: the miniatures are fantastic, and wonderful to collect, model/convert, and paint but I wouldn't play the game with them.


More like trying to find a FUN way to play the game. Rules wise the game hasn't been FUN since 3rd, but recently GW has done everything in it's power to stop on the throat of the hobbyists, and make the game 'buy x to win' and having to buy 50 books to play one army. It's why 3d printing, 3rd party bits, and conversions are taking off because that's the hobbyists jam. And the real fans of the game use Battlescribe and avoid the 'official app' like the plague it is.

And it's why now units are only getting options that's in the box, their monoposed, and the codex/supplement/and new edition every year like Madden is going on. They went people to come in, buy all the meta stuff, paint it, play a tournament, shift the meta, watch people dump their stuff to ebay, and run to the stuff, and buy all the new meta, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat, WAAC is god, etc.

BaronIveagh wrote:
 Polonius wrote:


In addition to the above, we will ask for any models with iconography that represents real military units or political movements in existence after 1900, or adult themed content to be removed immediately.


So, quite possibly, even genuine Dark Eldar and Juan Diaz Daemonettes may be grounds for being thrown out.

I'm not seeing a lot of 'compromise' here.


Funny thing is, GW MADE Female Space Marine models, and MADE naked Dark Eldar slave girls and Diaz Daemonettes (still the best sculpts. And I wish I hadn't sold mine.) So there's no good reason to throw them out.

Nurglitch wrote:Nothing dystopian about requiring people attending your business to buy your products. I mean, typically you're not permitted to bring your own food into a restaurant or movie theatre either. Or condiments, I believe, if we can make an analogy to Space Marine shoulder pads.


Better analogy would be banned from a restaurant for getting take out, and then putting your own stuff on it at home or using the take out to make your own meal. Or more to the point, it'd be like a grocery store having a cooking contest, and you buy some of the ingredients from that grocery store, but get disqualified because your 'sauce' had ingredients from another store.

BaronIveagh wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Nothing dystopian about requiring people attending your business to buy your products. .


Sorry, but if you have headswaps, you did buy their product. You know, fifteen years later, and people are still white knighting for games workshop like abused spouses, no matter what insane bs they pull this time. Do you know why they allow hand sculpted bits but not cast bits? So they can steal the design, call it their own intellectual property and not even give you credit. If it's some other persons design, they might end up getting sued by another company that can take them to court and not get crushed like you would if you tried to sue them over it.


^ this. I'm getting really annoyed by the GW purists. I remember in 2003, the IN STORE policy was 75/25 of GW to other stuff. And had troll magazines and conversion guides in their own books, Hell iirc the first Land Raiders were tanks from another company and converted. And they seem to forget that. But modern GW has turned from a hobby game into something like EA's predatory practices. No fun or personalization allowed, just spend money, and when you're done spend more money next year when we change everything... yet keep it all the same.

BaronIveagh wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:

White-knighting? I don't play in GW tournaments anymore. I haven't played since the summer of 2019. I'm just pointing out that it's their house and their rules. The game isn't my thing anymore, and I could gripe about it until the cows come home, but if you don't want to play by their rules in their house go do something else.


I haven't played in one since a decade before you last did then.

 Nurglitch wrote:

I mean, they change the rules so that your army isn't valid anymore, due to rules or modelling or something?


Do you seriously think that I'd have as much beef with them as I do if it were something that silly? I mean, seriously, between GW threatening me with legal action, and the entire BFG debacle, I don't think it unfair at all for my to see this as a return to form for them. It's ironic, but they made the old Flash Gits animation relevant again.






Now that video is accurate.

BaronIveagh wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Again, really well because they're making money hand over fist.


Not with RPGs they're not (which was the point). What stockholders value GW is their (mostly stolen) IP. Eventually they'll screw up and steal from someone big enough to fight them. It's why they've renamed and changed so much gak over the last few years, in a desperate attempt to make their IP actually copyrightable, after the ChapterHouse case showed just how flimsy their claim of copyright is.


I hope the renaming stuff one day bites them in the rear, and even now no one calls their stuff by the renamed gobblygook. It's still Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Eldar, etc. And Chapterhouse closing was a sad day. I'm looking for them to sledgehammer Pop Goes the Monkey at some point.

Nurglitch wrote:You don't have to buy the tickets if you don't want to go.


Don't have to buy tickets, and won't. But there's also nothing wrong with encouraging other people to not buy them as well until they change or die.




Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/22 13:26:44


Post by: Nurglitch


 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:You don't have to buy the tickets if you don't want to go.


Don't have to buy tickets, and won't. But there's also nothing wrong with encouraging other people to not buy them as well until they change or die.

There is, actually. Now, this is going to be a tad unintuitive, but consider all the passion you're putting into encouraging other people not to buy GW products or services until GW changes or dies. It's all about GW. All you're doing is keeping GW in people's minds and centered in the conversation. Grinding that axe against GW is just going to remind people that GW sells GW branded stuff. It's kind of like that old saw that all publicity is good publicity, and you're not only providing it for free, but contrary to your owns aims and goals.

You see, again this is going to sound weird, but whether you love GW or hate it, you care about it and caring is what keeps it going. That's what all the Warhammer Community fan-engagement stuff is about, that's why they're back into the tournament scene, etc. Now, if you care about something else, you can not only enjoy that thing, but you're going to encourage other people to care about it. The only way to avoid 'feeding the beast' is to feed something else, if only for your own mental health. Let people enjoy something and go find something else you can enjoy. Maybe people will see you enjoying it and be encouraged to share it, maybe they won't, but at least you'll enjoy it.

@gorgon has it right: not our thing anymore, but all the best to everyone who participates!


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/22 19:19:41


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Nurglitch wrote:

There is, actually. Now, this is going to be a tad unintuitive, but consider all the passion you're putting into encouraging other people not to buy GW products or services until GW changes or dies. It's all about GW. All you're doing is keeping GW in people's minds and centered in the conversation. Grinding that axe against GW is just going to remind people that GW sells GW branded stuff. It's kind of like that old saw that all publicity is good publicity, and you're not only providing it for free, but contrary to your owns aims and goals.


If we were dumb enough to do it that way, you'd have a point.

But, most of the time, we instead endorse, and even create, products for other companies. But when GW does something like this, as an attempt to cut into sales of the companies we actually do like, such as Victoria Miniatures, Anvil Industries, and so on, there's absolutely nothing wrong with speaking out against GW. You seem to miss, in your white knighting for them, that what they did here is an attack against those companies. An effort to cost them business, while at the same time returning to being the GW that was the company best known for suing it's fans for having 40k Tattoos.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/22 19:53:22


Post by: tneva82


 Stevefamine wrote:
Those anti-conversion rules invalidate 80-90% of armies at events.

Throne of Skulls and the GTs after 2010 were all really mediocre events. Zero interest.

Why would you attend this when you could go to Nova/Adepticon?


Are these on literally same days?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Cool. In the meantime this is about a tournament they're running for one of their games.


And, going all the way back to my point about that, this is the sort of policy that should have rightly remained in the pre-Roundtree era. GW having anti-customer policies is nothing new, but the fact that when they mostly abandoned them, business picked up, is not something they apparently noticed.. This policy seems like a throw back to an earlier, more idiotic, GW.


Out of curiosity can you go to mtg tournament with 3rd party printed cards?

Companies expecting their product to be used in own events isn't novel concept. 3rd party tournaments another thing.

(also 3rd party bits and pieces and models actually have in game balance effect so the tournament esport tryhards have vested interest getting rid of those)


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/22 20:32:49


Post by: BaronIveagh


tneva82 wrote:

Out of curiosity can you go to mtg tournament with 3rd party printed cards?


Not sure about currently, but in the old days, yes, as long as it wasn't distinguishable from genuine MTG cards. In fact, to expand this example to include bits, I can recall a time that alternate card art stickers were a popular fad among MTG players, but that was a LONG time ago.

tneva82 wrote:

(also 3rd party bits and pieces and models actually have in game balance effect so the tournament esport tryhards have vested interest getting rid of those)



One, I have to ask, what headswaps and SM shoulder pads are you using to get advantage? Is there a pouch bit that gives guardsmen an invulnerability save that I haven't heard of or something?

Two, this new policy does nothing to stop players from creating their own, it only prohibits players from using commercially available ones.




Edit: I took the time to look up the current rules for MtG tournaments, since it's been an (ice) age since I played and while the current rules do prohibit it, they only disallow altering the cards if it, in some way, marks the card or makes it unrecognizable, though this is seemingly waived for Secret Lair, who's altered cards are expressly tournament legal. Further, rather than disqualifying, the judge may instead issue a proxy to be used in a card's place.

So, sort of an apples and oranges comparison there.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/23 03:23:13


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


The rules in the tourney pack for painting and modelling are reasonable, and the TO leaves the door open for creativity if you reach out ahead of time. Having actual FW models is a sound policy.

These are GW events and they have wait lists. The wait lists tell us what we really need to know.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/23 06:42:05


Post by: PaddyMick


TangoTwoBravo wrote:
The rules in the tourney pack for painting and modelling are reasonable, and the TO leaves the door open for creativity if you reach out ahead of time. Having actual FW models is a sound policy.

These are GW events and they have wait lists. The wait lists tell us what we really need to know.


+1

However I would add that although success can make you immune to criticism, it doesn't invaliate the criticism itself. These tournaments have acted as a spur to discussion about 'correct' modelling which I gather is nothing new; it's no surprise people feel strongly given the amount of effort they put in. Having said that I get the feeling some of those (not in this thread) with the strongest opinions have not actually read the tournament pack, or if they did, they did not consider the context.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/23 06:47:52


Post by: KingmanHighborn


BaronIveagh wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:

There is, actually. Now, this is going to be a tad unintuitive, but consider all the passion you're putting into encouraging other people not to buy GW products or services until GW changes or dies. It's all about GW. All you're doing is keeping GW in people's minds and centered in the conversation. Grinding that axe against GW is just going to remind people that GW sells GW branded stuff. It's kind of like that old saw that all publicity is good publicity, and you're not only providing it for free, but contrary to your owns aims and goals.


If we were dumb enough to do it that way, you'd have a point.

But, most of the time, we instead endorse, and even create, products for other companies. But when GW does something like this, as an attempt to cut into sales of the companies we actually do like, such as Victoria Miniatures, Anvil Industries, and so on, there's absolutely nothing wrong with speaking out against GW. You seem to miss, in your white knighting for them, that what they did here is an attack against those companies. An effort to cost them business, while at the same time returning to being the GW that was the company best known for suing it's fans for having 40k Tattoos.


I'm not encouraging people to not buy GW models, I'm encouraging people to go to non GW events, play older and better editions of the game, and play with conversions, paint your army to make it your own. Put it another way, even if it's not a great comparison, when D&D killed 3.5 and went to 4th, people either kept playing 3.5, or they moved on and played Pathfinder, and made it a viable competitor to D&D, and people USED D&D minis, dice, gaming aids, etc. for Pathfinder. And Hasbro/WOTC got the freakin' memo, and made a good product again in 5th, to get people to play THIER game again. And they haven't lost any money, from 3d printed models, conversions, non Hasbro paint sets, etc. And are still making money hand over fist, and people are playing it more than ever it seems. And they are on 5th ed. Of a game that came out in the 70s. And 40K will PROBABLY be on it's 10th edition sometime in 2022ish. Says a lot about turnover just to jerk customers around with forced purchases that devalue like college textbook buyback.

But yeah, like Baron points out, we give money to 3rd party companies, to make our armies are own. And those companies MAKE GW money, because people BUY a GW kit, and BUY Victoria miniatures, BUY Kromlech, BUY Pop Goes the Monkey, etc. bitz and pieces to make their armies. If GW bans them, they KILL the incentive for people to give GW money, for the kits they'd use.

Put it this way to make my point with a bit of self show off this is my thread of my Chaos Army: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/789142.page
It uses pieces from Hordes, Wargames Factory, Albedo Combat Patrol, Frostgrave, and some old lead Ral Partha pieces. EVERY piece in my army started with a GW purchase, and GW model as the base.

My army is now illegal at GW events and stores. Despite them getting every possible cent from me. Despite years ago it being welcomed.


tneva82 wrote:
Out of curiosity can you go to mtg tournament with 3rd party printed cards?

Companies expecting their product to be used in own events isn't novel concept. 3rd party tournaments another thing.

(also 3rd party bits and pieces and models actually have in game balance effect so the tournament esport tryhards have vested interest getting rid of those)


First off the esport tryhards they have no place in tabletop wargaming HOBBY.

Secondly, wouldn't use 3d printed cards, but I'm damn sure a mtg tournament wouldn't care if my spindown, my gaming mat, tokens, card sleeves, etc. were 3d printed or bought third party. If GW was running MTG you'd only be allowed to use their products down to the card sleeves, and binders where you store the cards, and you'd be limited to pre constructed store bought decks and the options there within.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:The rules in the tourney pack for painting and modelling are reasonable, and the TO leaves the door open for creativity if you reach out ahead of time. Having actual FW models is a sound policy.

These are GW events and they have wait lists. The wait lists tell us what we really need to know.


And Madden MUT is a 1.4 billion dollar predatory gambling mechanic, doesn't make it reasonable, or moral, and that people are being pressured into something they don't want. With no viable alternatives around. So what's your point?


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/23 14:01:58


Post by: meatybtz


Removed, you can decline to attend an event without the vitriol and hyperbole - ingtær.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/23 22:23:17


Post by: Laughing Man


 KingmanHighborn wrote:
And Madden MUT is a 1.4 billion dollar predatory gambling mechanic, doesn't make it reasonable, or moral, and that people are being pressured into something they don't want. With no viable alternatives around. So what's your point?

You're right. Nobody has ever run tournaments other than GW. We really need an international tournament scene that GW doesn't control. I wonder what that might look like.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/24 06:32:11


Post by: KingmanHighborn


You clearly didn't read what I posted.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/24 06:59:39


Post by: Cybtroll


That irks me a lot. Not the painting request: they aren't the best and could be better, but I can't criticize the approach to make the model count. But the essentially total ban on modeling? All the model that I have and that I like the most are illegal... So it's just another steps towards GW irrelevance.
What is a model hobby when model are an expression of corporate branding rather than players creativity? It's something THEY SHOULD PAY ME TO PLAY, since I'll be a promoter (not a customer). Not the other way around.

I would rather leave GW purchases (or relegate them to the second hand market, as I'm doing for a few years now) rather than those of than any other 3rd party sellers.


But it's good for them, I suppose. Squeeze that whales before they go extinct, and don't let the kid play outside your garden: they might find out there's a forest of there.
Neither one is a particular intelligent business strategy. But that's what I expect from the bean counters.
Stuff like blowing up the Old World for petty copyright reason, mish-mash high fantasy tropes for AoS, and then launch "the Old World".
What do you expect by a company so clearly bad at long-term strategy (probably they believe strategy is something you find in their games?)

Stuff like the "living rulebook" in 8th silently forgotten for a new edition, or the release of a book to cancel it a few weeks later.

Business speaking, GW is the Emperor. A rotten carcass that thrive because none want to admit it's dead.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/24 07:07:31


Post by: KingmanHighborn


 Cybtroll wrote:
That irks me a lot. Not the painting request: they aren't the best and could be better, but I can't criticize the approach to make the model count. But the essentially total ban on modeling? All the model that I have and that I like the most are illegal... So it's just another steps towards GW irrelevance.
What is a model hobby when model are an expression of corporate branding rather than players creativity? It's something THEY SHOULD PAY ME TO PLAY, since I'll be a promoter (not a customer). Not the other way around.

I would rather leave GW purchases (or relegate them to the second hand market, as I'm doing for a few years now) rather than those of than any other 3rd party sellers.


But it's good for them, I suppose. Squeeze that whales before they go extinct, and don't let the kid play outside your garden: they might find out there's a forest of there.
Neither one is a particular intelligent business strategy. But that's what I expect from the bean counters.
Stuff like blowing up the Old World for petty copyright reason, mish-mash high fantasy tropes for AoS, and then launch "the Old World".
What do you expect by a company so clearly bad at long-term strategy (probably they believe strategy is something you find in their games?)

Stuff like the "living rulebook" in 8th silently forgotten for a new edition, or the release of a book to cancel it a few weeks later.

Business speaking, GW is the Emperor. A rotten carcass that thrive because none want to admit it's dead.


^ This exactly.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/24 07:30:50


Post by: PaddyMick


@Cybtroll
I am sensing a touch of cynicism there mate. Why don't you tell us what you really think

Seriously though, reading between the lines, conversions with 3rd party bits will be allowed, as long as you get them approved first.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/26 16:55:13


Post by: yukishiro1


Well, except that's not what the rules actually say, nor did Brandt say that. He just said most armies had been approved, not that any had been approved that used third-party bits.

I mean maybe it's all a big "don't ask, don't tell" thing. But we don't have any actual evidence of that, and presumably we won't because it's not like someone who submitted an illegal army and got it approved is going to be like "hey guys don't worry, my illegal army was approved!"

So it just comes down to a question of whether you trust GW to not enforce its own rules.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/26 19:34:46


Post by: Nurglitch


You're not being deliberately obtuse, are you?


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/27 00:49:47


Post by: BlackoCatto


My army is near completely impossible to play now at this tourney.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/27 16:35:12


Post by: stratigo


yukishiro1 wrote:
Well, except that's not what the rules actually say, nor did Brandt say that. He just said most armies had been approved, not that any had been approved that used third-party bits.

I mean maybe it's all a big "don't ask, don't tell" thing. But we don't have any actual evidence of that, and presumably we won't because it's not like someone who submitted an illegal army and got it approved is going to be like "hey guys don't worry, my illegal army was approved!"

So it just comes down to a question of whether you trust GW to not enforce its own rules.


It’s usually don’t ask don’t tell, but salty tournie players (usually your mid table champion) will tattle. I would not be shocked if a few try to invent third party bits on armies that have none


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/28 15:14:59


Post by: gorgon


 Cybtroll wrote:
Business speaking, GW is the Emperor. A rotten carcass that thrive because none want to admit it's dead.


Yeah, that makes sense. That they're a dying company propped up by record profits, great kits, soaring popularity and sold-out tournaments.






Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/28 20:28:24


Post by: BaronIveagh


 gorgon wrote:

Yeah, that makes sense. That they're a dying company propped up by record profits, great kits, soaring popularity and sold-out tournaments.


One would hope they're enjoying record profits, since they keep raising prices while their production costs remain flat. It still only costs them five dollars from design to store shelf to produce a box of space marines.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/28 21:47:03


Post by: BlackoCatto


I just bought two HG grade Gundam models, easier to assemble and well detailed at a cheaper cost than a kit of 10, 20 year old Guardsmen. It's partially off topic but, Christ.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/29 05:32:51


Post by: KingmanHighborn


BaronIveagh wrote:
 gorgon wrote:

Yeah, that makes sense. That they're a dying company propped up by record profits, great kits, soaring popularity and sold-out tournaments.


One would hope they're enjoying record profits, since they keep raising prices while their production costs remain flat. It still only costs them five dollars from design to store shelf to produce a box of space marines.



Not to mention the artificial numbers shuffling to make investors happy. And the profits made from forcing people to buy new editions every other year, and new codexes, supplements, campaign books, etc. Killing off the usability of WELL ESTABLISHED units, sending them to the ban bin i.e. Legends. to force people to scrap them and buy the new shiny thing, they may not even want, but have to buy so they can even play the game.

The amount of money you have to put down WITHOUT BUYING ANY MODELS is lunacy and predatory.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/29 12:32:47


Post by: jaredb


I hope the folks attending these events have a great time. I wish they would run one of these events near where I live, that'd be really fun!

Looking forward to when I can attend events again. I look forward to reading the coverage of these events!


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/29 15:45:42


Post by: spacewolf407


I live a few minutes from the Orlando venue. I didn't buy a ticket but I'll probably go just to spectate and check out the merch.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/29 19:38:54


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Hm, I am willing to wait and see on how the enforcement of model rules is handled. There are many places where laws or rules are written that theoretically justify absurd levels of restriction but in practice are used to prevent problem elements from finding loop holes to exploit.

It may be that GW is essentially 'reserving the right' to kick out armies that egregiously make use of 3rd-party elements and they will be right-handed with enforcement. Or maybe they will be totally strict about it and it will be oppressive to people who like to convert. GW hasn't run tourneys in a long time.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/30 11:56:37


Post by: kungfujon


Has anyone here received a response to the the model verification request emails?

I do realize they are probably swamped by them, but i was hoping that they'd maybe make a blanket statement or two about the most frequently asked questions. I sent my email in on June 16th and haven't heard back yet. I'm just wondering if they haven't gotten to it or maybe missed mine? If they won't allow the models, I'll have to prepare a different army to play.

I 3-d printed shoulder pad icons to glue on to all of my "out-of-the-box" models. Not sure if that is allowed.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/06/30 13:12:35


Post by: Nurglitch


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Hm, I am willing to wait and see on how the enforcement of model rules is handled. There are many places where laws or rules are written that theoretically justify absurd levels of restriction but in practice are used to prevent problem elements from finding loop holes to exploit.

It may be that GW is essentially 'reserving the right' to kick out armies that egregiously make use of 3rd-party elements and they will be right-handed with enforcement. Or maybe they will be totally strict about it and it will be oppressive to people who like to convert. GW hasn't run tourneys in a long time.

Presumably that's why they hired Mike Brandt, who ran the very successful NOVA event.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/01 20:43:46


Post by: Frazzled


Austin players. Nov is a good time of year for this. Check the weather as conditions change. There is a bit of a homeless situation near the freeways but otherwise its fine. Steer clear of 6th Street after about 12.00.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/04 19:18:40


Post by: Akar


 Nurglitch wrote:
Presumably that's why they hired Mike Brandt, who ran the very successful NOVA event.
Pity they didn't hire someone who could run a successful 40k event.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/05 21:47:09


Post by: stratigo


 Frazzled wrote:
Austin players. Nov is a good time of year for this. Check the weather as conditions change. There is a bit of a homeless situation near the freeways but otherwise its fine. Steer clear of 6th Street after about 12.00.



Love how we talk about the homeless.



Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/06 20:53:02


Post by: Moorecox


 Akar wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Presumably that's why they hired Mike Brandt, who ran the very successful NOVA event.
Pity they didn't hire someone who could run a successful 40k event.


This must be sarcasm right?


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/06 21:13:22


Post by: BaronIveagh


Moorecox wrote:

This must be sarcasm right?


No, it's probably a shot at the fact that NOVA is cancelled this year and GW offered zero support for it even if it went forward.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/06 21:20:13


Post by: Moorecox


Mike is more than capable.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/12 15:36:56


Post by: Akar


Moorecox wrote:
Mike is more than capable.
Then why hasn't he done it?

When GW stepped down from running events in the early 2k's, they left a void in 40k of providing a standard set of rules for 40k. Players would get a hold of all of the missions and play those in casual play since it's what they would play when they go to an event. In 5th ed, GW just made those missions a part of the core ruleset. Leaving it up to the organizers of any event to simply use the missions provided. This would remain true for 6th, 7th, and 8th. What GW lost was the team that had the skills to schedule the event, find a location, fill the venue with the required components to run the event (Tables, Terrain, Judges, Vendor area), in addition to coordinating with the local hotels for convention rates, getting all of the responsible stuff (Insurance, security, safety,etc).

Of those who rose to the top of being able to have that skill set, Mike (along with a handful of others I can think of), already has a Resume with an existing skill set that GW could use instead of trying to get someone to start from scratch. NOVA is struggling without his leadership from trying to recover after Covid is a perfect example of his skill even without knowing what he's capable of. I'm sure Mike was at the top of the list and he's been recognized and rewarded for his hard work and skill. It should be great news that GW is getting back into Organizing events so that it can become standardized again and we can stop seeing a different rule set for each individual event.

I've never seen an actual 40k Mission pack from the NOVA open. They always contained their own house rules which were only applicable to those who attended the event. There is nothing wrong with House Rules in 40k until they think that those house rules apply to the rest of the community. Competitive 40k used to mean 'Those who played 40k in a Tournament Setting'. When GW bailed being involved, Events were given free reign to introduce their own 'House' rules. Competitive 40k started to go away and Competitive 40k changed to mean 'A commonly accepted set of House Rules in a Tournament Setting'. Each edition released a set of rules that were modified or outright ignored by these independent events, NOVA included. By late 7th and all of 8th, you couldn't find a Competitive 40k event where players who had practiced the rules included with the editions had to learn an entirely different mission set to attend those events.

In relation to the NOVA mission pack, I can't think of any positive change to the game that has been implemented. When it was limited to the NOVA open it was easy to avoid, since they never ran an actual 40k event, we simply didn't have to go. Now we're stuck with a Mission that reflects his influence on 40k and excludes those who haven't wanted or, been able to attend the NOVA open. More than half of the current player base is unhappy with the current state of 40k, if they haven't left already several have gone back as far as 5th ed. I personally thought 5th ed was the worst edition, but then 9th came along. I'm not saying 5th was bad, but it was the least memorable as it didn't introduce any significant changes. It was also the last edition before the NOVA,ITC,etc. became the more known formats before Competitive 40k started to die. And players are going back to THAT out of all the editions available. Several players are already having an issue with AoS 3 since it's using a similar setup.

I'm fairly excited that Mike will bring back GW run events, and hopefully it won't see the problems that caused GW to leave in the first place. It would be nicer if they found someone who had run a 40k event instead of having to destroy the game to be successful, but here we are. It's a new era of 'Matt Ward' all over again, but Matt didn't do nearly as much damage to the game and the community that Mike has accomplished in 9th. There are going to be people on both opinions on this. Some are clearly in support of him, while others can't believe that we're stuck trying to play something that never needed to exist in the first place, let alone outside of NOVA.



Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/13 09:48:52


Post by: Slipspace


Given that your stance is there hasn't been a "proper" 40k event after GW pulled out of hosting tournaments themselves at the start of the 2000s I'm curious where you think they'd find a tournament co-ordinator "who had run a 40k event instead of having to destroy the game to be successful". If GW aren't producing an official tournament pack then any tournament packs produced will necessarily contain House Rules. This should not be a surprise and it also doesn't invalidate any of those tournaments as "not real 40k". IIRC, the NOVA mission pack was originally designed as an attempt to create a more balanced, fairer game than 40k provided out of the box. It seems to have been fairly successful at doing that given its ongoing popularity up until the world shut down.

Frankly, your posts here and in the other thread in this sub-forum about tournament pairings are coming across as semi-coherent ramblings at best and bizarre rants at worst. You're accusing someone who has yet to actually fully run a 9th edition 40k event in his new role for GW of doing more damage to the game and community than one of the most divisive personalities who've worked for GW in the last 20 years. Where's your evidence for that?

Personally, I think 40k as a system is singularly unsuited to competitive play for a number of reasons. However, I accept some people like to play it that way and also accept that a certain amount of house-ruling and adjustment is often required to allow the game to be played in that way. I'm struggling to see how running a new set of events in any way harms what we currently have in the competitive scene. If you already don't like what exists nothing has changed. Some people may prefer this approach that GW will be taking to tournaments and we might see more events like that in the future from non-official TOs. Again, if you hate the current competitive 40k set-up you still haven't lost anything if that's the case.

As with the other thread about pairings, I'd also ask what your solution is? You seem to dislike a lot of things about how tournaments are run yet I've not seen you propose anything of your own.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/14 16:20:52


Post by: theseehawk


Hoping somebody with the same issue or maybe even Mike B sees this...

Rules lock for Orlando is August 7th. Will the "special edition" ork codex in the beast snagga box count as a new released codex? With availability so limited I'm hoping it does not...

I sent an email to the model/army approval address but haven't heard back and this is pretty time sensitive since I'd have to get my pre-order in this week.

Looking for an "official" answer here....hoping maybe somebody else already asked and got an answer.



Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/15 19:26:45


Post by: Eihnlazer


Since that is going to be an officially printed GW datasheets it will most likely be in effect.

Obviously my word is not official, but the new Ork datasheets in that box will be just as usable as any limited edition release space marine models would have been.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/15 20:15:41


Post by: theseehawk


Its not data sheets, its a whole new codex. But its a "special edition" with limited availability.

I dont see how they can REQUIRE players use the new codex under these circumstances....but i also dont see how they can tell someone who has the codex that they cant use it.



Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/16 02:14:05


Post by: Eihnlazer


If its an entire codex, and not a supplement then it will be up to their discretion of course.

However, in general, all tournaments will have a rules cutoff date that they will follow.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/16 11:36:11


Post by: theseehawk


I'm sorry if i haven't made myself clear: yes, i know there is a rules cutoff date. Its August 7. What i dont know is if a "special edition" codex with extremely limited availability will be considered a "released codex".

If this was a ful retail release I'd have no question but making it special, limited, only available as part of a larger box, muddies the water quite a bit


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/16 12:31:29


Post by: MVBrandt


theseehawk wrote:
I'm sorry if i haven't made myself clear: yes, i know there is a rules cutoff date. Its August 7. What i dont know is if a "special edition" codex with extremely limited availability will be considered a "released codex".

If this was a ful retail release I'd have no question but making it special, limited, only available as part of a larger box, muddies the water quite a bit


Likely *not* but there are no official comms in a dakka thread. We'll message attendees with a clarification shortly.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/16 13:29:19


Post by: theseehawk


Thank you for the reply Mike.
I appreciate that nothing here us official...but with the pre-order going live tomorrow i hope "shortly" is today

Hate being "that guy"...

Thanks again for the reply and the hard work on the tournaments



Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/16 18:06:39


Post by: MVBrandt


We're working on the correspondence now


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/17 00:14:58


Post by: Moorecox


Thanks Mike for all the great things you do!


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/17 03:31:01


Post by: Sasori


 Eihnlazer wrote:
If its an entire codex, and not a supplement then it will be up to their discretion of course.

However, in general, all tournaments will have a rules cutoff date that they will follow.


In most cases updated rules are generally not allowed until they've had a general release, as the limited edition release like Beastnaggas can create a massive advantage.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/18 10:07:07


Post by: MVBrandt


Just as a PSA, we emailed the attendees the codex will unfortunately not be legal for Orlando.

We did not want to make people feel compelled to scramble for a limited release box, nor effectively penalize those who did not acquire one, nor create a situation where desperate scratch builds were the only way to get certain models on the table.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/18 13:43:41


Post by: BaronIveagh


MVBrandt wrote:
Just as a PSA, we emailed the attendees the codex will unfortunately not be legal for Orlando.

We did not want to make people feel compelled to scramble for a limited release box, nor effectively penalize those who did not acquire one, nor create a situation where desperate scratch builds were the only way to get certain models on the table.


Was this before, or after, it sold out under a minute?


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/18 15:21:56


Post by: MVBrandt


 BaronIveagh wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:
Just as a PSA, we emailed the attendees the codex will unfortunately not be legal for Orlando.

We did not want to make people feel compelled to scramble for a limited release box, nor effectively penalize those who did not acquire one, nor create a situation where desperate scratch builds were the only way to get certain models on the table.


Was this before, or after, it sold out under a minute?


Well before.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/18 17:48:51


Post by: BaronIveagh


MVBrandt wrote:

Well before.


Well, the reason I ask is that based on the time stamps on your posts in this tread, it would have been less than a day.

MVBrandt wrote:
We're working on the correspondence now


So, in other words, at the last possible moment, to try and maximize preorders without actually giving anyone any benefit.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/18 18:03:38


Post by: MVBrandt


 BaronIveagh wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:

Well before.


Well, the reason I ask is that based on the time stamps on your posts in this tread, it would have been less than a day.

MVBrandt wrote:
We're working on the correspondence now


So, in other words, at the last possible moment, to try and maximize preorders without actually giving anyone any benefit.


Do you reckon a handful of Orlando Ork players who both didn't want the box but did want it if they just had to get a codex would have been the ultimate unethical play for maximum profit in helping sell tens of thousands of boxes? It's a fascinating take.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/18 18:13:19


Post by: BaronIveagh


MVBrandt wrote:


Do you reckon a handful of Orlando Ork players who both didn't want the box but did want it if they just had to get a codex would have been the ultimate unethical play for maximum profit in helping sell tens of thousands of boxes? It's a fascinating take.


From my own experiences with GW and others with same recently, I expect maximum underhandedness and attempts to milk the player base, no matter how far fetched they would seem.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/18 18:16:15


Post by: MVBrandt


 BaronIveagh wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:


Do you reckon a handful of Orlando Ork players who both didn't want the box but did want it if they just had to get a codex would have been the ultimate unethical play for maximum profit in helping sell tens of thousands of boxes? It's a fascinating take.


From my own experiences with GW and others with same recently, I expect maximum underhandedness and attempts to milk the player base, no matter how far fetched they would seem.


Well I'm happy to defy expectations in this case. We held some hefty internal conversations about what would be best for the player experience, then emailed every attendee about 24 hours ahead of US box sales. I can also affirm I didn't leave a corporate exec position and 12 years of running a charity con to toss reputations away on maybe selling 2-3 boxes that were going to sell out in seconds regardless.

That said, I think that's about all I feel like responding about in this line, so I hope you won't pivot to anything character assassinatey. I do understand your concerns.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/18 19:14:05


Post by: Sasori


One of the most bizzare takes I've seen recently on Dakka is the conspiracy that a box that sold out in seconds, may not have sold out in seconds if the dex had been allowed in a single event.

EDIT: Wanted to say thank you to Mike Brandt for being so coolheaded here and appreciate the responses. A lot of us appreciate you posting here, and it's unfortunate you have to deal with some of this absurd toxicity at times.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/18 23:04:01


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Sasori wrote:
One of the most bizzare takes I've seen recently on Dakka is the conspiracy that a box that sold out in seconds, may not have sold out in seconds if the dex had been allowed in a single event.

EDIT: Wanted to say thank you to Mike Brandt for being so coolheaded here and appreciate the responses. A lot of us appreciate you posting here, and it's unfortunate you have to deal with some of this absurd toxicity at times.


When you work for GW, expect it. After GW's treatment of the fan base, for years, is it wrong to be suspicious of anything they do? I admit, it's probably unfair to take it out on Mike, but I have never seen GW do a thing that DIDN'T have an angle.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/18 23:49:14


Post by: CKO


 Sasori wrote:
One of the most bizzare takes I've seen recently on Dakka is the conspiracy that a box that sold out in seconds, may not have sold out in seconds if the dex had been allowed in a single event.

EDIT: Wanted to say thank you to Mike Brandt for being so coolheaded here and appreciate the responses. A lot of us appreciate you posting here, and it's unfortunate you have to deal with some of this absurd toxicity at times.


I also would like like to thank Mike for his hard work. You are in an elite class when it comes to organizing events and I know it will be a success!


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/19 06:51:08


Post by: tneva82


 BaronIveagh wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:

Well before.


Well, the reason I ask is that based on the time stamps on your posts in this tread, it would have been less than a day.

MVBrandt wrote:
We're working on the correspondence now


So, in other words, at the last possible moment, to try and maximize preorders without actually giving anyone any benefit.


Ah yes. The orlando tournament is attended by tens of thousands of ork players worldwide after all (plus all the other players)

Yea right.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/19 07:27:40


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
It seems to be working out for them.


Really? Because Black Industries, FFG, and Ulisses Spiele's RPGs are *all* now over at cubicle7 and apparently no new materials are being produced. Their entire RPG line is, effectively, defunct. So, how well did it work again?


Hey now, the Warhammer Fantasy 4th edition RPG is doing great, especially with the rerelease of the Enemy Within campaign.

So, the RPG which is set in the world which GW blew up and abandoned is doing great!
...
The same world which is featured in their most successful video game tie-ins ever!
...
The first of which was announced 6 months before GW blew up the old world...

Yeah, I don't think GW is very good at this "long-term planning" thing.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/19 17:24:22


Post by: Nurglitch


 Sasori wrote:
One of the most bizzare takes I've seen recently on Dakka is the conspiracy that a box that sold out in seconds, may not have sold out in seconds if the dex had been allowed in a single event.

EDIT: Wanted to say thank you to Mike Brandt for being so coolheaded here and appreciate the responses. A lot of us appreciate you posting here, and it's unfortunate you have to deal with some of this absurd toxicity at times.

Seconded!


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/19 22:45:43


Post by: BaronIveagh


 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Hey now, the Warhammer Fantasy 4th edition RPG is doing great, especially with the rerelease of the Enemy Within campaign.

So, the RPG which is set in the world which GW blew up and abandoned is doing great!
...
The same world which is featured in their most successful video game tie-ins ever!
...
The first of which was announced 6 months before GW blew up the old world...

Yeah, I don't think GW is very good at this "long-term planning" thing.


Remember, it's all just a way to force more peple to buy whatever product they're pitching at the moment. The idea that they might make money off it in other ways is only now catching on.


tneva82 wrote:


Ah yes. The orlando tournament is attended by tens of thousands of ork players worldwide after all (plus all the other players)

Yea right.


GW would do it if they thought it would bring them so much as a single additional sale and WAAC players are easy to manipulate with gak like this. I'll grant, they're much less common among Ork players, but it's not unknown.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/20 07:53:21


Post by: Slipspace


Seems like a pretty stupid theory to suggest GW deliberately waited to inform people about the legality of a new Codex until before the pre-orders (so before it would be of any potential benefit to them), while at the same time people are complaining it sold out in minutes anyway. I don't think the sales of a box that was clearly way under-produced are at all dependent on people attending a single new tournament somewhere in the USA.

I'm all for criticising GW when they mess up, and the low stock levels for the recent Ork stuff is pretty stupid IMO, but nothing in your narrative makes sense.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/20 21:12:45


Post by: BaronIveagh


Slipspace wrote:
Seems like a pretty stupid theory to suggest GW deliberately waited to inform people about the legality of a new Codex until before the pre-orders (so before it would be of any potential benefit to them), while at the same time people are complaining it sold out in minutes anyway. I don't think the sales of a box that was clearly way under-produced are at all dependent on people attending a single new tournament somewhere in the USA.


Artificial Demand plus an Artificial Shortage.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/07/20 22:58:27


Post by: Vaktathi


Let's get the discussion back on track, if people want to talk about events or the rules (pro/con/whatever), that's fine, but lets take talk of market manipulations and such to other threads. Thanks!


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/10 18:00:47


Post by: Eihnlazer


Im pretty pumped to see how this first event in Orlando pans out.

Good luck to all involved and I hope everything runs smoothly and safely.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/18 16:22:28


Post by: undertow


yukishiro1 wrote:
No restaurant is going to throw you out for bringing your own mustard if you don't like the brand they offer.

I bring small bottles of real Maple Syrup to the local breakfast place where I live (Washington state, USA), and I've never had a problem.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/19 00:25:05


Post by: Catulle


 undertow wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
No restaurant is going to throw you out for bringing your own mustard if you don't like the brand they offer.

I bring small bottles of real Maple Syrup to the local breakfast place where I live (Washington state, USA), and I've never had a problem.


If you want an equally applicable counter-proposal, how many poker events will let you bring your own cards?

I'm exaggerating for effect, as is the rest of this conversational tangent, but even I who cannot resist funking with a menopause* kit to switch arm pairs or such can grasp that the TO gets to make that call then stand or fall based on how well that carries with the community. It's not *for* me (or for the likes for me) but that doesn't mean it's not improving the hobby overall. That's where I get to suspend my ego and examine the outputs.

*seriously, autocorrect? But it's funny, so it stands.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/22 15:51:28


Post by: bullyboy


Not sure if it's been posted somewhere before (pretty sure it must have been), but what are the base sizes of the main buildings in the GW terrain setups?


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/22 21:26:16


Post by: Rihgu


I've been seeing a lot of people say 12"x12" but cannot confirm with real data/information.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/22 21:43:10


Post by: Eihnlazer


12" x 12" on the big ruins, 10" x 5" for the smalls.

dense terrain is on 6" x 4"


EDIT FOR INCORRECT INFO.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/23 00:04:03


Post by: MVBrandt


12x12, 10x5, 6x4


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/23 02:49:41


Post by: bullyboy


Thanks guys, gonna grab some tiles for practice.

is there a specific distance between the large tiles?


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/27 22:55:16


Post by: Moorecox


Heard there is some controversy about a Blood Angel player using a strat wrong to win a game and it appeared on the warhammer community meta watch article (Orlando)


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/27 23:04:27


Post by: beast_gts


Moorecox wrote:
Heard there is some controversy about a Blood Angel player using a strat wrong to win a game and it appeared on the warhammer community meta watch article (Orlando)
Original article said he'd used "Wings of Fire" on the Ancient, but he's not Core so not eligible. The player (Jack Harpster) commented that this was picked up on at the time, and the article has been corrected/updated.

Spoiler:


With just a couple of models left against a superior force of Aeldari looking to Assassinate his Sanguinary Ancient, he looked at using the Upon Wings of Fire Stratagem to take his Ancient off the table long enough to keep him alive. Realising this wasn’t possible, as the Sanguinary Ancient doesn’t have the CORE keyword, Jack boldly advanced the Ancient on the central objective – and heroically survived to score an 86-82 win.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's odd that the WarCom article mentioned it, unless whoever was making notes missed the judges coming over.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/27 23:15:49


Post by: Moorecox


Makes you wonder.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/28 07:27:23


Post by: Slipspace


Also interesting to note that the article caused quite a few keyboard warrior moments, forcing the BA player to defend himself on FB, saying it didn't actually happen because he caught the Core requirement in time. So GW release an article that gets their own rules wrong, which basically says a player cheated, then quietly edit it later. Classy.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/28 14:37:37


Post by: Moorecox


Gotta love those keyboard warriors…


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/28 20:15:31


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Slipspace wrote:
Also interesting to note that the article caused quite a few keyboard warrior moments, forcing the BA player to defend himself on FB, saying it didn't actually happen because he caught the Core requirement in time. So GW release an article that gets their own rules wrong, which basically says a player cheated, then quietly edit it later. Classy.
Nah, that's a simple mistake anyone writing an article could make. They went back and corrected in short order, it didn't need any kind of announcement that they fixed a minor error. This is all on the SJWs jumping the shark to hate group rather than calming the feth down for two seconds.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/08/31 19:07:34


Post by: ERJAK


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
Also interesting to note that the article caused quite a few keyboard warrior moments, forcing the BA player to defend himself on FB, saying it didn't actually happen because he caught the Core requirement in time. So GW release an article that gets their own rules wrong, which basically says a player cheated, then quietly edit it later. Classy.
Nah, that's a simple mistake anyone writing an article could make. They went back and corrected in short order, it didn't need any kind of announcement that they fixed a minor error. This is all on the SJWs jumping the shark to hate group rather than calming the feth down for two seconds.


...SJW? Exactly what Social Justice were people warrior-ing for over a misused stratagem? These were rules lawyers and internet 'WELL AKSHULLY!!' guys, not SJWs (regardless of your feelings on said group).

Words generally mean things. SJW (derogatory) has 2 specific connotations one for the subject, one for the user. A. It refers to someone who champions social causes in a particularly ineffective or annoying way and B. When used unironically, especially as a generalist term for ANYONE who supports social causes, it lets the listener know that the individual who labeled someone an SJW probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.

Here we have an example of SJW being used incorrectly AND unironically. Which adds a layer of cringe on top of it's unfortunate implications as to the poster's character.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/09/09 00:33:28


Post by: NinthMusketeer


...or I just consider combatting the rampant cheating at tournaments a social cause, and consider the people I was referencing as fighting it in an aggressive, impotent way.

Let's take a deep breath here before spiralling off into calling me a nazi, ok?


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/09/09 12:20:40


Post by: MVBrandt




Automatically Appended Next Post:
/Sees new reply to his thread

... O.O

/Leaves


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/09/09 13:27:13


Post by: EightFoldPath


And I thought SJW stood for Shill for James Workshop.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/09/09 19:38:38


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I'm mostly amused and disappointed that 'rule' #1 is not being enforced here. Apparently the Dakka mod crew consider it not impolite to accuse someone of being a racist misogynistic nazi.

I mean in hindsight I obviously made a poor choice of phrase; I didn't think to much on it at the time but it is evidently a sore spot for some people. I made a mistake and I'll learn from it.

But to pass judgement on my entire character, and such a significantly negative one at that, based on one post in a wargaming forum? That's a level of bigotry I'm glad I have no part in.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/09/13 15:36:31


Post by: stratigo


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'm mostly amused and disappointed that 'rule' #1 is not being enforced here. Apparently the Dakka mod crew consider it not impolite to accuse someone of being a racist misogynistic nazi.

I mean in hindsight I obviously made a poor choice of phrase; I didn't think to much on it at the time but it is evidently a sore spot for some people. I made a mistake and I'll learn from it.

But to pass judgement on my entire character, and such a significantly negative one at that, based on one post in a wargaming forum? That's a level of bigotry I'm glad I have no part in.


don't use the term SJW if you don't want people to think so ill of you.

SJW is just a far right snarl word and anyone using it makes themselves associate with those people.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/09/13 18:28:18


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Then report me for a rule 1 violation and move on, don't 1-up it three times by saying I am a racist misogynistic nazi.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/09/13 19:35:06


Post by: BaronIveagh


stratigo wrote:

don't use the term SJW if you don't want people to think so ill of you.

SJW is just a far right snarl word and anyone using it makes themselves associate with those people.


Unfortunately, like Nazi, there are people who actually are that, but it is overused.




Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/09/17 02:35:13


Post by: bullyboy


stratigo wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'm mostly amused and disappointed that 'rule' #1 is not being enforced here. Apparently the Dakka mod crew consider it not impolite to accuse someone of being a racist misogynistic nazi.

I mean in hindsight I obviously made a poor choice of phrase; I didn't think to much on it at the time but it is evidently a sore spot for some people. I made a mistake and I'll learn from it.

But to pass judgement on my entire character, and such a significantly negative one at that, based on one post in a wargaming forum? That's a level of bigotry I'm glad I have no part in.


don't use the term SJW if you don't want people to think so ill of you.

SJW is just a far right snarl word and anyone using it makes themselves associate with those people.


Reading things like this just makes me realize how many dumb people are really out there.


Games Workshop US Open Series Grand Tournaments @ 2021/09/18 02:11:51


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Eh, I think his manner of phrasing is not doing him favors here. The underlying sentiment of 'using a term associated with a specific group of people will lead others to believe you are also associated with that group' is valid.

Now in my locale the term in question does not bear such a strong association, thus leading to my using it in what was an unwise choice on my part. I should have thought about the potential misinterpretation that could occur. Of course some individuals have taken that misinterpretation and ran with it into a display both hypocritical and ironic to such an extreme I can't even get mad about it.

But just outright calling someone dumb over it is just continuing the chain.