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Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 17:57:00


Post by: Matt Swain


I have to say i'm against t5 orks as i think they just kind of break the setting, especially in relations to space marines.

marines were made to fight things the imperial guard had problems with. The IG likely, especially early on, fought rebellious humans, so a S3 weapon against targets that are mostly T3 was ok. orks were T4 making them tough for IG to bring down, but Marines had S4 weapons that were effective vs orks.

Now making orks t5 makes a standard bolter relatively ineffective against them. I assume the bolter was designed to be effective against some of the targets marines would be firing on mostly, and orks are definitely on that list. But if orks go t5 it means the bolter was relatively ineffective against them from the get go, which makes the bolter less of an impressive weapon. I'd assume a marines primary weapon would be made to have at least half a chance of wounding an ork, one of their main opponents.

it just doesn't seem right to make a marines main weapon relatively ineffective against one of their main opponents. Linda breaks immersion a bit.

Plus orks will have to be expensive in points now, and orks have traditionally been a green tide army that often wins thru sheer numbers. Boosting their costs to a fair level will really cut down on the size of ork armies. I'd prefer to howling green tide ork army, seems more orky to me.

lastly it makes orks tougher than marines. I really just don't like it, not as a marine player and certainly not as a closet matt ward. Orks should be tougher than a human, yes, tougher, bigger, etc, But a marine is meant to be a human that's been genetically, biologically and surgically modified to be tougher than human too. Putting them on par with orks showed how hard it was to make a human tough as an ork. A human has 19 implants, years of surgery, a carapace, fused ribs, larraman cells, etc to be t4, an ork just pops out of the ground and is t5 now?

i just think it kinda of ruins immersion. IG mostly fight heretics, rebels, etc, and being on par with them is ok. Marines fighter tougher stuff, they should be on par or better than what they fight because they were designed by the freakin' emperor to be at least on par with them.

T5 orks just seem to break the setting. But hey, as a necron i can at least be on par with them since my troops can now take S5 weapons routinely...





Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 18:04:44


Post by: Xenomancers


You are right ofc.

Typical anti space marine rhetoric will follow though...bolter porn...ect. They should have just given orks a FNP if they wanted to make them tougher.



Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 18:17:52


Post by: Grimskul


I wouldn't say it breaks the setting at all, because while bolters are definitely more effective than lasguns against Orks, there's been stories of Orks surviving bolter rounds before (that's actually how Ghazghkull's story starts since he goes in to see Mad Dok Grotsnik since part of his skull got blown off) and frankly the game does not equal the fluff. You have to abstract a lot of stuff when you're making a game and what can actually be translated over from the fluff into what works into it. You could easily just as much argue how a grot in CC can cause a wound on a Baneblade. Realistically, SM would be more outnumbered than they are now in a lot of fights in game. Guys like the Silent King would never take to the field in some small skirmish, etc.



Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 18:22:55


Post by: mrFickle


What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 18:29:11


Post by: Xenomancers


mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork. Ultimately Their points is going to have to be at least 10 now that I have put real thought into it.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 18:32:08


Post by: Gert


No because the game stats have little to no bearing on the lore. Lore will do whatever it wants with anything it wants. SM need to be massacred to make an enemy seem like a credible threat? It'll happen. A platoon of Guardsmen hold off an entire Ork Waaaagh? It'll happen.
Orks have been able to shrug off or die to whatever a writer wants and that has always been the case.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 18:33:51


Post by: mrFickle


 Xenomancers wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork. Ultimately Their points is going to have to be at least 10 now that I have put real thought into it.


But are they equal vs other opponents? This is game dynamics we’re talking about, now. To achieve a true gradient of weapon damage that could represent such a diverse universe we would need to work on a scale of 1-100 for strength and toughness.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 18:39:41


Post by: Grimskul


mrFickle wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork. Ultimately Their points is going to have to be at least 10 now that I have put real thought into it.


But are they equal vs other opponents? This is game dynamics we’re talking about, now. To achieve a true gradient of weapon damage that could represent such a diverse universe we would need to work on a scale of 1-100 for strength and toughness.


Yeah, with the D6 system, and GW's unwillingness to go past the T8 cap they've set for themselves, there's really not enough granularity to show the nuances between the different levels of strength and physical toughness of each race.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 18:42:00


Post by: Xenomancers


mrFickle wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork. Ultimately Their points is going to have to be at least 10 now that I have put real thought into it.


But are they equal vs other opponents? This is game dynamics we’re talking about, now. To achieve a true gradient of weapon damage that could represent such a diverse universe we would need to work on a scale of 1-100 for strength and toughness.

FNP 6+ would have been more than adequate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork. Ultimately Their points is going to have to be at least 10 now that I have put real thought into it.


But are they equal vs other opponents? This is game dynamics we’re talking about, now. To achieve a true gradient of weapon damage that could represent such a diverse universe we would need to work on a scale of 1-100 for strength and toughness.


Yeah, with the D6 system, and GW's unwillingness to go past the T8 cap they've set for themselves, there's really not enough granularity to show the nuances between the different levels of strength and physical toughness of each race.

That is a good point. The T8 cap does have a lot to do with this.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 18:43:35


Post by: oni


T5 Ork Boyz... It doesn't feel right.

This is the direct result of the overuse of weapon AP. The Ork Boyz 6+ save is worthless and so to compensate their toughness is being boosted.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 18:50:21


Post by: Gert


Love to see game mechanic discussion in the background forum.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 18:56:47


Post by: mrFickle


 oni wrote:
T5 Ork Boyz... It doesn't feel right.

This is the direct result of the overuse of weapon AP. The Ork Boyz 6+ save is worthless and so to compensate their toughness is being boosted.


Orks are a horde army on the table, the green horde is what GW want to represent but then they need to be easy to kill. I’m not sure how it will work out but maybe GW are happy to have less of a horde on the table for Orks.

But fluff wise Orks a hard and very resilient to damage. So fluff wise I think it’s fine.

I’ve previously thought it would be fun to have a gang of Orks or gretchin in necromunda where they are super dangerous and very hard to kill as a juxtaposition to their 40K role.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 19:07:47


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Remember, a model removed as a casualty doesn’t represent an actual kill.

It can be a warrior too badly injured to carry on, or simply knocked out.

T5 represents that for Orks, they may not be hard to inflict physical injury on, but bloody difficult to cripple. Clip most other beings with a Bolt round, and you’re doing enough damage to send them into shock. Orks, not so much.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 19:36:47


Post by: Pointer5


I play both Space Marines and Orks. The needed something to keep them on the table. Multiple wounds no that's a marine thing. Special armor save no most orks wear t-shirts. Toughness that's it! It will allow Orks to not get blasted off the table turn one. Don't worry Marine players you'll get another fancy unit or tank next month. Don't begrudge your classic opponents a boast. It will only make the game more interesting. Now if only GW upgrades the Eldar. That will create some extra fun.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 19:41:24


Post by: Karak Norn Clansman


They might at most break the game at a stretch, but not the setting.

Game rules and background are only loosely connected. Chaos Space Marines remained T3 for a while after Imperial Space Marines got T4 in early 40k. Likewise CSM were shoddier than their loyalist counterparts for most editions. So much for selling your soul away for worldly powers.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 19:45:47


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


 Gert wrote:
No because the game stats have little to no bearing on the lore. Lore will do whatever it wants with anything it wants. SM need to be massacred to make an enemy seem like a credible threat? It'll happen. A platoon of Guardsmen hold off an entire Ork Waaaagh? It'll happen.
Orks have been able to shrug off or die to whatever a writer wants and that has always been the case.


This.
Fluff didn't change when SM got a second wound and it won't change because of T5 Orks. It didn't even change when vehicles lost firing arcs for that matter
I also think it feels fluffy for Orks and for a horde army it is a much better choice than 6+++, which would mean endless rolling.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 20:04:06


Post by: Xenomancers


Pointer5 wrote:
I play both Space Marines and Orks. The needed something to keep them on the table. Multiple wounds no that's a marine thing. Special armor save no most orks wear t-shirts. Toughness that's it! It will allow Orks to not get blasted off the table turn one. Don't worry Marine players you'll get another fancy unit or tank next month. Don't begrudge your classic opponents a boast. It will only make the game more interesting. Now if only GW upgrades the Eldar. That will create some extra fun.
It will probably be okay...but...da jump has gotta go...Unfortuantely...GW is likely gonna let the spell double cast for 1 CP and there goes the ball game.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 20:06:19


Post by: JNAProductions


Orks, the sentient fungus capable of losing limbs and head but still fighting, getting harder to wound but still much easier to kill than a Marine? That won’t break the setting.

Now, CSM being entirely weaker than loyalist Marines in many ways, THAT feels wrong. But Orks being tough? Feels good


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 20:12:16


Post by: Pointer5


Orks that can move. Da jump won't be a problem most armies have a way of quickly closing with the enemy. At least now overwatch exists. T5 Orks just a new wrinkle in the game. Now everyone will be able to work on new ways to take advantage of it and find new ways to beat it.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 20:22:02


Post by: SlaveToDorkness


 Xenomancers wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork. Ultimately Their points is going to have to be at least 10 now that I have put real thought into it.


This is more a result of using s D6 instead of say a D10. Less granularity for the stats to have.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 20:52:30


Post by: skchsan


It's just the first step towards squashing the older models that survived the culling of the eighth.

-T5 orks mandate S5 weapons to be taken in greater quantities during the first few months of ork codex release.
-more and more armies follow suit, now every army has S5 as base.
-marine players cry for buffs. primaris is only one that gets upgraded into T5.
-people refuse to use T4 firstborns, firstborns eventually get phased out.
-execute order 66.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 21:43:07


Post by: The Red Hobbit


 Matt Swain wrote:

Now making orks t5 makes a standard bolter relatively ineffective against them. I assume the bolter was designed to be effective against some of the targets marines would be firing on mostly, and orks are definitely on that list. But if orks go t5 it means the bolter was relatively ineffective against them from the get go, which makes the bolter less of an impressive weapon. I'd assume a marines primary weapon would be made to have at least half a chance of wounding an ork, one of their main opponents.


I had the same thought when I saw Orks were going up to T5. When I first read about Orks when I was getting into 40k, these hulking creatures that didn't feel pain and found ultra-violence to be funny well I thought for sure they'd be hard to take down. Either a high toughness, high wounds, or Feel No Pain. Personally I was in the FnP camp since it seems to match their biology the most, and a Painboy improving that to 5+ sounds great.

I'm not opposed to Orks being T5 as a different solution, and that's not just because I'm an Ork Player That said the bolter, the holy weapon the Emperor designed and was wildly successful during the Great Crusade, well, it should be pretty effective against the enemies of the Emperor. Especially those Orks that were causing quite a ruckus until they were soundly beaten and control was transferred over to that swell guy Horus on Ullanor.

From a lore perspective T5 Orks isn't unreasonable, but if we stick with the idea that Marines are meant to be as Tough as Orks and their bolters lethal to them then it follows that Marines should also be T5 and have S5 bolters. Where does that rabbit hole lead. Well if you have S5 bolters how many other S4 weapons should be S5? If Marines are T5 which other infantry should get +1 T? Now we've got a whole game to rebalance

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a test run, if it works out and Orks don't bungle up the game balance we may see T5 super-infantry and S5 infantry weapons commonplace in 10th edition.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 22:15:26


Post by: cody.d.


From a gameplay point, no it probably won't have a massive effect. A bolter wounds slightly less often, but will still penetrate saves and can come out in massive numbers. A lot of other armies just won't care much. Guard, Dark elder and Nids won't even feel the difference outside of some edge cases.

From a fluff point of view. Now that the standard of tough super species (marines) has gotten an extra wound it feels more viable. An ork can recover from or sustain worse injuries before being killed outright, but it'll take more punch to incapacitate a marine for the duration of the battle.

Remember orks have an almost Deadpool silly level of healing, limbs can be stapled back on, their skin is often described as leather tough and are a species known for ridiculous feats of endurance as long as the adrenaline is flowing, even fighting when technically dead! Marines and guard alike have cursed their durability. T4 with a 6+ felt laughably squishy, they were almost classed as light infantry. With a T5 and that same save (though hopefully we can keep the abilities to buff it we have now) I think we can respectably class them as medium infantry and that feels about right.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 22:52:14


Post by: BrianDavion


 skchsan wrote:
It's just the first step towards squashing the older models that survived the culling of the eighth.

-T5 orks mandate S5 weapons to be taken in greater quantities during the first few months of ork codex release.
-more and more armies follow suit, now every army has S5 as base.
-marine players cry for buffs. primaris is only one that gets upgraded into T5.
-people refuse to use T4 firstborns, firstborns eventually get phased out.
-execute order 66.



your tinfoil hat's a bit tight dude. seriously after the firstborn marines where increased to 2 wounds I woulda thought this kinda crap had ended. Marines got their second wound added on everything, that is thew answer to feelings of marines being weaker. this is basicly a case of GW giving multiple armies that should be tough but haven't felt it for ages an upgraded in differant directions.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 23:04:41


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Absolutely agreed, I don't think T5 with a t-shirt save is going to break the gameplay at all.

But when you think of classic infantry almost all of their basic weapons are S4, your Bolters, Gauss Flayers, Shuriken Catapult & Sluggas/Shootas because all the classic infantry targets have been T3/T4 with a few exceptions.

When a classic infantry like Boyz become T5 it's a bit of an upheaval to that dynamic. Thankfully it's Boyz who got the bump and not something already durable so it'll cause less of a ripple effect.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 23:09:09


Post by: Jarms48


It is very immersion breaking for me. As your typical anti-Ork weapons, IE: Bolter and more importantly Heavy Bolter are suppose to be Ork killers. Yet both will now be doing much worse against them.

I would have preferred 2 wounds. Maybe even a 5+ armour save. If a shirtless Catachan can get a 5+ save then an Ork should as well. Hell, perhaps both of those buffs at the same time.

I can only imagine that Ork bikers will be T6 now. Lasguns will wound them on 6's, and Heavy Bolters on 5's. Crazy.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 23:12:39


Post by: chaos0xomega


Game != Setting. The game rules have never been an accurate reflection of the setting, I don't see why that would change now.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/15 23:57:13


Post by: JNAProductions


Jarms48 wrote:
It is very immersion breaking for me. As your typical anti-Ork weapons, IE: Bolter and more importantly Heavy Bolter are suppose to be Ork killers. Yet both will now be doing much worse against them.

I would have preferred 2 wounds. Maybe even a 5+ armour save. If a shirtless Catachan can get a 5+ save then an Ork should as well. Hell, perhaps both of those buffs at the same time.

I can only imagine that Ork bikers will be T6 now. Lasguns will wound them on 6's, and Heavy Bolters on 5's. Crazy.
Just to be clear, you'd rather Ork Boys have two wounds at T4 (meaning they'd need 6 Bolt Rifle shots to put down) instead of one wound at T5 (needing 4.5 shots to put down) because that'd make them feel less tough?


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 00:26:55


Post by: Jarms48


Just to be clear, you'd rather Ork Boys have two wounds at T4 (meaning they'd need 6 Bolt Rifle shots to put down) instead of one wound at T5 (needing 4.5 shots to put down) because that'd make them feel less tough?


Yes, because it means weapons like the stalker bolt rifle and heavy bolter will be the same as they are now. It makes them more resilient to small arms fire, not heavier weapons.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 00:30:49


Post by: Cynista


It doesn't break the game but it does change it in a less than satisfying way. Orks are tough but they are not T5 tough. That doesn't pass the authenticity test and it makes a lot of lore sound absurd, especially as Marines are supposed to be a hard counter to Orks. Wounding on 5's they aren't

As mentioned already the only way this feels better is if the T8 softcap is removed and more granularity is introduced


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 00:30:57


Post by: JNAProductions


Jarms48 wrote:
Just to be clear, you'd rather Ork Boys have two wounds at T4 (meaning they'd need 6 Bolt Rifle shots to put down) instead of one wound at T5 (needing 4.5 shots to put down) because that'd make them feel less tough?


Yes, because it means weapons like the stalker bolt rifle and heavy bolter will be the same as they are now.
Because Stalker Bolt Rifles (1 shot) is what I think when I think "What do I take against Orks?"
Not the 3-shot AutoBolt Rifle, no sirree! That'd be silly!

Moreover, Orks being tough isn't a bad thing for the setting. An Ork should be at least as tough as an unarmored Marine, and they've not even managed that. If we gave a Marine the same 6+ Armor an Ork has, there's no profile with D1 that the Ork is more durable against.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 00:50:00


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Seems like people are unhappy that the bolters which were the staple of the Great Crusade and the defeat of the Orks is now considerably less effective against Orks. Deciding which Cawl-pattern Bolter to use on an Ork doesn't really change that.

It also doesn't bode well for the future where GW can now say "Well SM players if you'd like to deal with that Ork menace by this kit with S5 uber-bolters."


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 00:56:31


Post by: catbarf


 JNAProductions wrote:
Moreover, Orks being tough isn't a bad thing for the setting. An Ork should be at least as tough as an unarmored Marine, and they've not even managed that. If we gave a Marine the same 6+ Armor an Ork has, there's no profile with D1 that the Ork is more durable against.


I fondly remember the intro to Dawn of War, where a squad of Marines take on a bunch of Orks and it's, like, actually a reasonably close fight. And yeah, it's not like Orks are now tougher than Marines. Against S4, a Marine is still 3.33x harder to kill than an Ork. Against S3, a Marine is still 5x harder to kill than an Ork. Even if you take away the armor, Marines are still tougher.

Having inflated Marine stats considerably, GW now seems to want to use the newfound middle ground for non-human troops. Drukhari (and presumably Eldar) got an armor buff, and now Orks are getting a toughness buff. I'm all for it.

If there's one thing that bothers me, it's that Orks being T5/W1 while Marines are T4/W2 doesn't have any clear explanation or meaning for the distinction.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 01:02:22


Post by: The Red Hobbit


From a game perspective T5 W1 is far easier to track for a horde army. I much prefer it to 2W models.

Lore wise anything you could say as to why Marines are tough enough to have a 2nd Wound would also apply to Orks who still fight just fine looking like swiss cheese and have a good chuckle about it afterwards.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 01:03:13


Post by: scarletsquig


If we're looking at immersion-breaking core troops, Eldar Guardians win the prize.

In lore, they're talented centuries-old civilians of a dying race that can't afford to lose any more numbers.

On the table, they're disposable chaff to be boltered to shreds by the dozen.

At least Orks are depicted as being tough in the background, that's something that has been pretty consistent all along.

Stat variety is good and something that previous editions just haven't done, largely sticking firmly to the stats laid down in 3rd (and sometimes 2nd) edition. One of the things that 9th is getting right so far.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 01:04:20


Post by: Castozor


Eh it's fine honestly if you ask me. With Marines going to 2 wounds something had to be done and I think Orks at 1 wound but T5 is a nice way to represent their innate toughness while keeping the horde-fodder feel. For those advocating 6+ FNP, do you know how tedious that is to play with/against? I liked my old DG DR giving a 5+ because it at least felt meaningful, a 6+ is just pointless dice rolling most of the time. Multiply that by 120 Orks running around and it's just a load of wasted time. T5 is cleaner and, IMO, decently represents Ork toughness.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 01:52:03


Post by: cody.d.


Cynista wrote:
It doesn't break the game but it does change it in a less than satisfying way. Orks are tough but they are not T5 tough. That doesn't pass the authenticity test and it makes a lot of lore sound absurd, especially as Marines are supposed to be a hard counter to Orks. Wounding on 5's they aren't

As mentioned already the only way this feels better is if the T8 softcap is removed and more granularity is introduced


What in the world is the authenticity test? And all of the lore is absurd, it always has been and is a key part of 40K's appeal. Make simple task robots? Nah screw that, let's take the corpses of our forebearers and stuff them with electronics to make servo skulls and such.

Also Marines weren't really made to hard counter orks, more to unite earth/planets that were separated during the age of darkness. There are many cases of marines getting their asses handed to them by orks. Imperial fists wiped out to one single survivor, the crimson fists, obsidian blades and many many more chapters have had unfavourable run ins with the greenskins.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 02:19:26


Post by: Mr. Grey


I think Toughness 5 is the best way to represent "ork toughness" on the game table. I play orks because I like rolling lots of dice. And even for me, having to roll an extra FNP for every single wound my orks take sounds like less than fun when you multiply it across an entire board's worth of orks.

With their current armor saves, orks already die in droves anyway. An extra point of toughness makes them slightly harder to wound... which is kind of as it should be. For me, that's a good representation.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 02:35:27


Post by: Seabass


I like the addition of T5. I think of the wound roll as the round hitting a critical area or having some otherwise critical or threat stopping effect. In the case of orks, hitting them in the leg isn't really likely to drop one (at least, it's not entirely consistent in the lore) and thus vital area hits would be most likely to put an ork down. Given that almost always a bolter will blow through them and kill them once wounding, I think it represents the fact that bolters are significantly good against orks, but you have to hit the right spot.

I try not to think of the weapons and stats in 40k as independent silos, I tend to think of them as interconnected. Now, while this is completely my own interpretation, it does, at least on my infantile level, explain why some things exist, like a t5 ork, or a t7 hive tyrant. For example, a guardsman's lasgun isn't str 3 because the output/capacity of a guardsman lasgun is 19 megathule in the magazine, it's because the weapon, the user, target, all culminate into the effectiveness of the weapon.

Maybe its the wrong way of looking at it, but it makes sense to me, and its why I like the idea of t5 orks (until I have to play against them )


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 02:44:53


Post by: Gregor Samsa


T5 orks are definitely supported by the lore. They’re tough fighters who eschew armour. Therefore: high toughness, low armour save. I’m looking forward to the change.

Power creep is definitely occurring. And that’s not good for the game system. But this is how 40k works.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 03:13:27


Post by: blaktoof


Flip side argument.

T4 orks coating more than 1 pt breaks the immersion of the lore. A space marine is able to fight off whole units of orks in the lore.

100% Lorehammer does not make a good game of Warhammer.

Discuss.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 03:26:02


Post by: the_scotsman


 Matt Swain wrote:


it just doesn't seem right to make a marines main weapon relatively ineffective against one of their main opponents. Linda breaks immersion a bit.




Doesnt seem right to me that space marines' boltguns now rapid fire at full range and have 1 more AP than they used to.

Kinda breaks the setting, increasing what they kill at super long range by more than 1/2 - enemies that are supposed to be durable get ripped through by basic boltguns.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cynista wrote:
especially as Marines are supposed to be a hard counter to Orks. Wounding on 5's they aren't


A squad of intercessors with no buffs gets 18% points return firing at t5 orks from 30" away - 3 turns away from a reasonable ork charge.

Meanwhile, shoota boyz 18" away from those same intercessors (nearly within reasonable charge range, if the intercessors feel like scoring some more kills) sees a 13% points return.

Seems like marines still have a pretty solid advantage here, given the massive range advantage.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 03:47:43


Post by: AnomanderRake


I don't know that I'd point at this specific instance of stat creep as breaking the setting given that stat creep has been going almost continuously since late 5th.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 03:47:57


Post by: bullyboy


I'm far less concerned with T5 Orks than I am with the direction codexes are going regarding effects in the command phase. Sorry, needs to be a separate thread.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 03:56:51


Post by: Apple fox


It breaks the setting less than some of the space marine stuff I think.
If it has to happen to give ork players a good game, then I think that positive.
Orks are supposed to be damn scary, and space marines are supposed to be elite and tactically minded rather than just super cool powerful individuals.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 04:17:50


Post by: Crackedgear


Most marine weapons seem to be AP -1 these days, -2 if you’re in the right combat doctrine. Meaning even if those T5 orks are hiding in a building, they still get no save.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 04:43:57


Post by: Siegfriedfr


Game has been broken ever since the first 8th ed SM codex came out.

T5 on orks will just pile on the numerous gameplay mistakes made by GW rules teams.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 07:03:26


Post by: Turnip Jedi


I think there's some room on the Drukhari bandwagon after the DT nerf, I hear they dont give two figs about T5


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 07:04:41


Post by: Ulthanashville


GW has mentioned that they want to tone down horde armies and speed up the game. I can see them cutting max boyz squad sizes by 5 or 10 models to balance out this change. This to me seems like a fair trade.

There’s also an element of entitled whining from space marines players regarding this change. So you’ll have to actually suck something up for a change in the midst of your faction-wide upgrade to primaris. What proportion of ork armies have made the top of tournments in the last 5 years? 10? 15 even?

Let the green guys have a moment in the sun for once.

For Drukhari with their poisoned weapons and bugs with toxin sacs, the game remains effectively unchanged.

Tau are still the kings of shooty and the orks have to reach them first. Hey, kroot may actually see use as bubble wrapping.

Guard (and to an extent sisters) have all of the blast and flamer weapons they could want to counter this.

Necrons, Eldar, Ad Mech etc have enough toys to weather the storm.

It’s not such a game-breaking disaster.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 07:30:07


Post by: KingGarland


I am not entirely against the change, though I feel that the basic Boyz should remain at T4 as these models are suppose to represent the weakest of in the Ork hierarchy. If they do intend to reduce the size of horde armies and and make units of Boyz smaller to compensate for the increased toughness I will be more on board.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 07:34:50


Post by: Aenar


 Xenomancers wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
What do you feel toughness represents as an individual quality.

It’s something to do with the ability to absorb damage. Orks can recover from wounds that astartes can not, like having your head cut off.

If SM are getting more wounds then Orks should have more wounds or toughness, I don’t think this breaks the fluff at all

Whatever T represents. There is no question that a bolter is more powerful than a lasgun and they do a lot more damage. Lasgun and bolter are now equal vs an ork.

That's an issue of the S vs T table.
If it were:
2+ on a difference of 2 or more (S>>T)
3+ on a difference of 1 (S>T)
4+ on S=T
5+ on a difference of 1 (S<T)
6+ on a difference of 2 or more (S><<T)
Then lasguns would wound T5 Orks on a 6+ and bolters would do it on a 5+.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 07:38:55


Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


I love the change to T5, currently Orkz are meant to be this horde of tough infantry who run at you screaming (on foot, on a buggy, on a giant ramshackle metal battle bus) whilst shrugging off firepower.

For such a supposedly tough creature, T4 6+ save. Thats... Not tough at all. Like seriously for a close combat unit which often footslogs its hilariously easy to gun now.

Im so much happier with W1 T5 for Orkz than W2 T4 ala Marines. It's a different profile, it'll make the army feel nicer to play and lets be honest, Marines still have all the tools to deal with this and are still more durable than ork boyz against basically all weapons barring heavy anti tank (And if that's shooting at Ork boyz or Intercessors, you're already winning or hilariously losing)

I'm hyped for my Nobz to be S5 T5 and possibly stand up to all the other melee units.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 08:01:31


Post by: Da Boss


If you see the setting primarily as a Space Marine power fantasy, then yes, T5 orks break the setting. A lot of players do see the game in those terms and are encouraged to do so by GW.

But if you don't see the setting that way then I think T5 Orks are fine. It seems to me that GW is going in an "increase everyone's offensive output and then also tweak the defensive stats" route since the introduction of 2W marines. That's fine, it's just changing the scale of the game a bit I think. Personally I'm fine with all non-large infantry being 1W and using other methods to model resilience (reducing weapon capability across the board, or increasing non-wound defenses somehow) but going for more offense with more defensive capabilities is a valid design choice. Warmachine and Hordes had a similar approach with their elite infantry squads having multiple damage points each. But it lends itself to a slightly smaller game size, which I actually think is a pro-consumer move from GW.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 08:30:30


Post by: addnid


Feel no pains slow the game down, 2 wounds is a marine thing, armour saves not possible (boyz don't have armour, unless they are ard boyz, but that is a different topic) so GW had no alternative than to up a point of toughness.

I do agree that a lasgun and a bolter should not be on par when hitting an ork boy. Anyway for me bolters should cost more and be more potent weapons, so issue doesn't lie with the ork boy.

Perhaps sisters of battle and other cheaper bolter carriers should not have the same bolters SM di then, obviously...


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 08:40:10


Post by: Blackie


IMHO the setting NEEDS to be broken.

Boyz getting +1T and remaining cheap is a step towards the right direction, AKA encouraging players to bring real full TAC lists which won't be optimized against anything but they won't also be terrible against anything. Finally competitive SM players will stop tailoring their lists against other SM and they won't complain about auto losing against anything else that isn't SM or any other elite oriented army. It's everyone's win.

Start taking 48 assault cannon shots instead of 20 melta ones. Heavy bolters are still gold. Basic bolters at AP-1 will still delete tons of boyz comfortably. All those options are also amazing against drukhari, which SM seem to suffer a lot but somehow refuse to counter.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 08:45:44


Post by: kirotheavenger


I do worry that we're going to be returning to the old rock/paper/scissors dynamic.

Is it going to be possible to bring enough firepower to simultaneously deal with all these variant interpretations of "tough infantry"?

TAC listss have an inherent problem in 40k that any given faction is almost always skewed to some level of durability or another.
If you bring a mix of anti-horde, anti-elite, and anti-tank guns against any given army at least one of those is not going to have any targets. Now they're adding more and more nuanced statlines but with the same skewed distributions things will only get worse imo.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 08:47:06


Post by: blood reaper


Aren't Orks supposed to be obscenely tough monsters who can survive injuries including outright decapitation? If they can handle that, what does an explosive round really matter?


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 08:50:58


Post by: JohnnyHell


 blood reaper wrote:
Aren't Orks supposed to be obscenely tough monsters who can survive injuries including outright decapitation? If they can handle that, what does an explosive round really matter?


This. They’ve used T value to represent ignoring damage as much as actually being tough, without a second time wasting dice roll. Maybe Marine players are rattled by it but what’s bad about that!? And weren’t you all going to buy Heavy Intercessors anyway?


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 08:53:10


Post by: Tyel


 Blackie wrote:
IMHO the setting NEEDS to be broken.

Boyz getting +1T and remaining cheap is a step towards the right direction, AKA encouraging players to bring real full TAC lists which won't be optimized against anything but they won't also be terrible against anything. Finally competitive SM players will stop tailoring their lists against other SM and they won't complain about auto losing against anything else that isn't SM or any other elite oriented army. It's everyone's win.

Start taking 48 assault cannon shots instead of 20 melta ones. Heavy bolters are still gold. Basic bolters at AP-1 will still delete tons of boyz comfortably. All those options are also amazing against drukhari, which SM seem to suffer a lot but somehow refuse to counter.


Yeah. I think this is part of GW's continued attempt (which takes a one step forward, two steps back approach, but still) to produce meaningfully different stat lines, that have meaningful different "optimal comp" counters. So you have less "Oh you play X? Take Y, it counters everything you will ever meet the best."

I don't see how it "breaks the setting" in any meaningful way, unless you believe movie marines should be a thing. I can question whether this the best way to make Boys not some of the most fragile units in the game - but I can see it offering more variety than "eh, just give them a 4+ save and call it good."


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 08:58:23


Post by: Apple fox


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I do worry that we're going to be returning to the old rock/paper/scissors dynamic.

Is it going to be possible to bring enough firepower to simultaneously deal with all these variant interpretations of "tough infantry"?

TAC listss have an inherent problem in 40k that any given faction is almost always skewed to some level of durability or another.
If you bring a mix of anti-horde, anti-elite, and anti-tank guns against any given army at least one of those is not going to have any targets. Now they're adding more and more nuanced statlines but with the same skewed distributions things will only get worse imo.


You could use a form of reserves for that, units that are only deployed or swapped out when needed or not. Never a full army, but portions of it.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 09:01:48


Post by: Cronch


Purely background-wise, it is accurate. The Orks are portrayed as a huge threat, having numbers as large if not larger than humans AND being incredibly hard to put down. If a marine with a bolter can wipe the floor with a pack of them, how are they a real threat?


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 09:09:04


Post by: Valkyrie


Seeing all the Marine players fret about it gives me a bit of a chuckle, and I say that as a Marine player.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 09:10:11


Post by: AngryAngel80


I think all this stat buff bloat is ultimately poor for the game, started by space marines but I don't think it'll stop with Orks now. No sir, I don't like it.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 09:16:17


Post by: Gitdakka


Well i think this is a good change. ork boyz was and probably still is a very unpractical unit as you need so many of them to do so little. Higher toughness makes them more playable, and I prefer this change instead of more wounds (wich leads to book keping). I think the current wound table is a bit badly designed. I would prefer s3 vs t5 roll 6+ and vice versa.

Gameplay practicality should be prioritised higher than marine godmode fluff.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 09:24:09


Post by: mrFickle


Cronch wrote:
Purely background-wise, it is accurate. The Orks are portrayed as a huge threat, having numbers as large if not larger than humans AND being incredibly hard to put down. If a marine with a bolter can wipe the floor with a pack of them, how are they a real threat?


Exactly and when the space marines defeat them it proves how good SM are, if Orks are wimps in the fluff then there nothing special about SM when they take them down. So ultimately +1T is good for marines


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 09:45:28


Post by: Blackie


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I do worry that we're going to be returning to the old rock/paper/scissors dynamic.

Problem is orks are already rock/paper/scissor built at competitive levels. They're either all T4 or all vehicles. Increasing T means that infantries will have a stateline that is closer to most of the vehicles, which are light ones with T6, and so lists with a mix of everything could be more appealing.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Is it going to be possible to bring enough firepower to simultaneously deal with all these variant interpretations of "tough infantry"?


That's exact the point of playing with TAC lists. You can't delete 60 boyz, a couple of elite units (say meganobz) and 2-3 tanks simultaneously, and you definitely shouldn't. Right now it's trivial to delete 90 boyz in 2 or 3 turns at most, when an horde like that should be supposed to be extremely hard to eliminate completely.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

TAC listss have an inherent problem in 40k that any given faction is almost always skewed to some level of durability or another.
If you bring a mix of anti-horde, anti-elite, and anti-tank guns against any given army at least one of those is not going to have any targets. Now they're adding more and more nuanced statlines but with the same skewed distributions things will only get worse imo.


True, some weapons will not have any juicy targets. But if you bring all anti elite and anti tank weapons, against an horde of cheap dudes (current orks with t4) you won't have targets for ALL the weapons you have. Upping orks' T should limit skewing. There's a problem when most or all of your weapons are poor against a specific opponent, not when just some of them are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrFickle wrote:
So ultimately +1T is good for marines


It's good for them because people will stop tailoring against SM at some point. Which means SM lists will do better against other factions.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 09:52:02


Post by: Arachnofiend


Orks are often described similarly to Plague Marines in terms of being able to merrily shrug off horrific injuries, makes sense to me for them to have the same toughness value.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 09:56:37


Post by: Eldarsif


As an answer to OP's title question:

No


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 10:02:13


Post by: tneva82


 Matt Swain wrote:
I have to say i'm against t5 orks as i think they just kind of break the setting, especially in relations to space marines.

marines were made to fight things the imperial guard had problems with. The IG likely, especially early on, fought rebellious humans, so a S3 weapon against targets that are mostly T3 was ok. orks were T4 making them tough for IG to bring down, but Marines had S4 weapons that were effective vs orks.



Uuuh...IG weren't nowhere NEAR around when space marines were made. And nor was orks marines major opposition. Marines led the crusade to unite galaxy under humans and fought anything(including humans) as needed. They didnt' even KNOW what would be lying beyond Terra when they left out. Except likely hostile.

Also bolters weren't even intended to be primary weapon for marines but this annoying thing called "logistics" made bolters the weapon of choice as it was easier to produce in mass quantities needed.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 10:40:55


Post by: Marshal Loss


Yes. This is the end of all things 40k


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 11:08:02


Post by: Kitane


I will wait for my judgment after the Nid codex is out, as the Nids are in desperate need of a stat overhaul.

But T5 boys aren't even remotely as bad for the game and immersion as the last two years of Cawl-sponsored marine circus.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 11:23:21


Post by: the_scotsman


 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I think all this stat buff bloat is ultimately poor for the game, started by space marines but I don't think it'll stop with Orks now. No sir, I don't like it.


Yeah, it'd be terrible if different units had meaningfully distinct statlines, lol.

THe GAemE Wuz BetterEr WhEn you Nedded 1 weppin Too kilL Ifnantry An OnE tOo kIlLL Tnaks!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Old:

Ork T4 W1 Sv6+
Guardsman T3 W1 Sv5+
Guardian T3 W1 5+
Kabalite T3 W1 5+
Sister T3 W1 3+
Marine T4 W1 3+
Necron Warrior T4 W1 4+

Yeah, moving to statlines that dont just vary based on the value of AP you need to totally deny the usage of that save stat is a TEEERRRIBLE idea.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 12:26:04


Post by: Galas


Old GW's fear to actually use the numbers of their system was why my ogres had S4/T4 like an black orc or a chaos warrior instead of proper S5/T5 so I welcome our new green overlords.

And as a Custode player I don't feel Custodes are invalidated by Orks going to T5. Custodes still have many more wounds, much much better armor and better weapons. The real problem as a Custode player is fething space marines with T5 and W3 and heavy bolters as ranged weapons that make Saggitarum look like chumps for half the cost.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 12:41:01


Post by: the_scotsman


 Galas wrote:
Old GW's fear to actually use the numbers of their system was why my ogres had S4/T4 like an black orc or a chaos warrior instead of proper S5/T5 so I welcome our new green overlords.

And as a Custode player I don't feel Custodes are invalidated by Orks going to T5. Custodes still have many more wounds, much much better armor and better weapons. The real problem as a Custode player is fething space marines with T5 and W3 and heavy bolters as ranged weapons that make Saggitarum look like chumps for half the cost.


^yeah also, reminder for space marine players, you HAVE a troop choice that is S5 base AP-1 already...


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 13:04:25


Post by: Matt Swain


orks were tougher than humans, that's fine, but tougher than a generically and surgically altered transhuman warrior? That just doesn't seem right.

orks were dangerous to marines by out numbering them heavily.

I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 13:13:05


Post by: SpeederBoy


I do think the d6 nature of 40k means issues like this are pretty much impossible to avoid. Bumping a single attribute by one point, in this example, takes the likelihood of a bolter wounding an ork from 1/2 to 1/3, a reduction of 17% in absolute terms but 32% in relative terms.

It gets even worse for lasguns. A reduction of 1/3 to 1/6 of wounds means their effectiveness just got halved against greenskins.

My instinctive reaction is to favour a d100 system. It brings its own problems of course, but it allows for far more incremental differences to impact on the gameplay.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 13:14:02


Post by: Voss


6+ FNP is pretty trash (see current Snakebitez culture). And army wide, it's just another way to bog the game down in hundreds of dice rolls.

T5 is fine. The orks have always been tougher in the background than the table, and this is the least burdensome way to do it.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 13:14:03


Post by: the_scotsman


 Matt Swain wrote:
orks were tougher than humans, that's fine, but tougher than a generically and surgically altered transhuman warrior? That just doesn't seem right.

orks were dangerous to marines by out numbering them heavily.

I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


...I'm well and truly shocked that I actually might need to explain this, but...toughness is one of three stats used in warhammer to represent how tough (colloquially) a model is. Various other rules, special and standard, are used to represent that different ways that it is hard to bring a model down.

And the thing with marines is that they have a "2" in the "wounds" stat, and a "3+" in the "save" stat....which will mean that they're...quite a bit tougher than orks, generally.

They even have models, Troops choices even, that are not only W2, but W3, and T5 as well.

Necrons are extremely tough, but tend to have lower core stats than other tough things, because a lot of their toughness is placed into the special rule they've got that makes them get back up after you've killed them. Nurgle daemons famously are very difficult to kill, but what's this? T4? W1? Sv7+??? How could this thing be tough, this breaks the lore if you look at only these stats and no other stats or rules at all!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SpeederBoy wrote:


It gets even worse for lasguns. A reduction of 1/3 to 1/6 of wounds means their effectiveness just got halved against greenskins.


OK i need a show of hands. Who participating in this thread who believes T5 orks have destroyed the setting has actually played a game of warhammer 40,000 in the past two editions?


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 13:16:28


Post by: Tarvitz77


 Matt Swain wrote:
orks were tougher than humans, that's fine, but tougher than a generically and surgically altered transhuman warrior? That just doesn't seem right.

orks were dangerous to marines by out numbering them heavily.

I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


They're not actually tougher though. As brought up by others in the thread, the toughness 5 ork is still easier to put down than a toughness 4 marine with 2 wounds, even if the space marine forgets to put his armour on.

I'm happy with it. It's nice for orks to be ded 'ard. As long as they're costed appropriately I'm at peace with it. Fine for fluff too.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 13:19:03


Post by: Pyroalchi


From what lore and novels I read I find it fitting. It's not very easy to fatally wound an Ork right in front of you, but on the other hand if you manage to saturate the target (with grenades, artillery, massed lasgun fire), they go down as they (usually) don't have powerarmor. It fits at least with stuff like for example the Cain novels where Orks where tough as nails and overwhelming if they came close or if you had to face on 1:1, but suffered heavily when confronted with massed lasgun fire (other than astartes who shrugged those of thanks to their armor).

I also have so far not had the impression that Marines were meant as a hard counter to ork hordes. From what I picked up Marines where maybe a hardcounter to Ork bosses and the like, while the greentide itself was adressed by guard. Really the IG brings massed artillery and a light, but sufficient (1 damage) gun that is so abundant on the average battlefield that they can wither unarmored Orks down pretty good.

Edit: note, that I mean "in the lore" with the last paragraph


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 13:51:01


Post by: SemperMortis


 Matt Swain wrote:
I have to say i'm against t5 orks as i think they just kind of break the setting, especially in relations to space marines.

Plus orks will have to be expensive in points now, and orks have traditionally been a green tide army that often wins thru sheer numbers. Boosting their costs to a fair level will really cut down on the size of ork armies. I'd prefer to howling green tide ork army, seems more orky to me.

lastly it makes orks tougher than marines. I really just don't like it, not as a marine player and certainly not as a closet matt ward. Orks should be tougher than a human, yes, tougher, bigger, etc, But a marine is meant to be a human that's been genetically, biologically and surgically modified to be tougher than human too. Putting them on par with orks showed how hard it was to make a human tough as an ork. A human has 19 implants, years of surgery, a carapace, fused ribs, larraman cells, etc to be t4, an ork just pops out of the ground and is t5 now?


History Lesson. 4th edition. Space Marines were T4 1W 3+ save, had a single shot boltgun that went to 2 shots if they didn't move and were within 12'. They had 1 attack base at S4, all of this for 15ppm. Ork boyz on the other hand were T4 1W 6+ save, had a single shot pistol. They had 2 attacks base (3 for CCW) at S3 base but went to S4 +1 attack on the charge. Also they were movement 6. And they cost 6ppm. Math time: An Ork boy was 40% the price of a Marine and against basic S4 weaponry the Marine was 300% more durable (boyz required basically 1 S4 wound to die, Marines took 3. In CC the Ork was able to kill 0.33 Space Marines a turn or about 5ppm of Marines. The Marine was able to kill 0.4 Orkz a turn or about 2.4pts in CC.

9th (right now) The Marine is now 2W, his boltgun has twice as many shots at max range, he still gets +1 attack on the charge and depending on what turn it is, his bolter might be AP-1. All of that for 18pts or +3pts since 4th which means 20%. The Ork on the other hand has gained permanent S4 instead of just on the charge, he lost 1 movement and +1 attack on the charge. Hes gone up 33% in price to 8ppm Ork boyz are now 44.4% the price of a Marine. In CC that ork is now able to do 0.33dmg to a Marine which is now equivalent to 3ppm of Marines a turn. The Marine on the other hand is now killing 0.55 orkz a turn or a bit over 4pts of Ork boyz a turn.

Durability wise, it takes about the same amount of dmg to kill 1 boy, 1 wound. (1.2 if you want to be exact) But the Marine...the Marine is now taking 6 wounds to kill or 200% increase in durability vs S4 1D weapons.

So that means that the Space Marine is now 66% more deadly against an Ork boy while also being cheaper comparatively. Durability wise the Marine is now 500% more durable vs D1 weapons than the ork boy. So when you sit there and say that ork boyz going to T5 is breaking the game for you...its been broken for awhile now.

Also, on the off chance you actually wanted to know. A Marine with a bolt gun at max range is currently killing 0.55 boyz a turn. When Boyz go to T5 that same Marine is going to be killing 0.37 boyz a turn. So instead of needing 2 Marines to kill 1 Boy, it will now take *Gasp* 3.

 Xenomancers wrote:

FNP 6+ would have been more than adequate.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You are right ofc.
Typical anti space marine rhetoric will follow though...bolter porn...ect. They should have just given orks a FNP if they wanted to make them tougher.


Snakebites already have 6+ FNP. Want to know how useful a 6+ FNP is in terms of durability? That T5 reduces dmg taken from bolters by the aforementioned 33% (Wounding on 5s instead of 4s). 33% more durable vs common S4 weaponry. A 6+ FNP for all orkz means a couple things. 1: The save part now takes significantly longer, role a D6 for saves and than a D6 for FNP on 30 boyz...kind of annoying, but here is the best part against that S4 bolter with a 6+ FNP you go from a single Marine killing 0.55 Orkz a turn to... 0.458 An increase in durability of 1/6th or 16.6% but its even better than that, and ironically worse for Space Marines. Why? Because if you gave Ork boyz a 6+FNP (assuming the painboy can boost it to 5+ because otherwise what is its point?) you will see even less D1 weaponry. Why? Because D1 weaponry already isn't effective against Space Marines (The most popular faction) and if orkz got a 6+(5+) FNP than D2 weapons would actually be MORE effective against ork boyz and would therefore be taken even more regularly which would further diminish the return on investment of a 2nd wound for Space Marines.

Congrats, your suggestion would Make your Marines worse.

Ulthanashville wrote:

Tau are still the kings of shooty


....well.... kind of? Just to rehash how broken Marine stats have become of late. Tau are kind of famous for being a gun line right? their basic infantry/troops are amazing with their BS4 S5 30' range weaponry right? Well, guess what? Those Tau firewarriors who are the kings of shooty...yeah, they lose in in a gun fight to Intercessors

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I do worry that we're going to be returning to the old rock/paper/scissors dynamic.

Is it going to be possible to bring enough firepower to simultaneously deal with all these variant interpretations of "tough infantry"?

TAC listss have an inherent problem in 40k that any given faction is almost always skewed to some level of durability or another.
If you bring a mix of anti-horde, anti-elite, and anti-tank guns against any given army at least one of those is not going to have any targets. Now they're adding more and more nuanced statlines but with the same skewed distributions things will only get worse imo.


return to it? Bud its been hardcore R/P/S for awhile now. Orkz have only been able to make it in tournaments by thriving on the fact that ATM most armies are taking Rock, to smash Scissors (D2 high AP weapons to kill multi-wound high save Marines). And that Rock doesn't do well when it encounters cheap throwaway paper troops

As far as TAC lists, I can't remember the last time I saw a tac list at a tournament. Even the most "TAC" type lists are usually 60/40 Anti-tank to anti-infantry and that anti-infantry weaponry usually is easily buffed to be anti-elite infantry.

 Matt Swain wrote:
orks were tougher than humans, that's fine, but tougher than a generically and surgically altered transhuman warrior? That just doesn't seem right.

orks were dangerous to marines by out numbering them heavily.

I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


Are you aware of the Origins of Orkz? Orkz are more technologically advanced in terms of their creation than Space Marines and by a LONG SHOT. Orkz were created by the Old ones (brain boyz) to fight against the C'tan and Necrons in the war of the heavens. So an advanced civilization capable of fighting against literal star gods created "Krorkz" to fight their wars and be ridiculously durable and capable of joining the battle almost upon birth. So when you say it doesn't seem right, well, that depends entirely upon your perspective doesn't it?

Orkz though are supposed to be dangerous to Marines and basically everyone else by outnumbering them heavily. The problem is that as I spelled out above, Orkz are currently MORE expensive per model compared to Space Marines than they used to be, while at the same time being significantly less durable AND less capable of damaging them.

The 6+ FNP is already a thing for Orkz, specifically Snakebites Klan and also any klan if they take a Painboy who can give every unit partially within 3' of him a 6+FNP. The problems with 6+FNP are already mentioned, but to rehash them, it slows the game down and has a marginal impact on durability (16.6%) while being even less of an impact vs D2+ weapons, which are currently very popular due to the most popular army (Marines) being W2-W3 on their infantry.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 13:55:15


Post by: JNAProductions


Spoiler:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I have to say i'm against t5 orks as i think they just kind of break the setting, especially in relations to space marines.

Plus orks will have to be expensive in points now, and orks have traditionally been a green tide army that often wins thru sheer numbers. Boosting their costs to a fair level will really cut down on the size of ork armies. I'd prefer to howling green tide ork army, seems more orky to me.

lastly it makes orks tougher than marines. I really just don't like it, not as a marine player and certainly not as a closet matt ward. Orks should be tougher than a human, yes, tougher, bigger, etc, But a marine is meant to be a human that's been genetically, biologically and surgically modified to be tougher than human too. Putting them on par with orks showed how hard it was to make a human tough as an ork. A human has 19 implants, years of surgery, a carapace, fused ribs, larraman cells, etc to be t4, an ork just pops out of the ground and is t5 now?


History Lesson. 4th edition. Space Marines were T4 1W 3+ save, had a single shot boltgun that went to 2 shots if they didn't move and were within 12'. They had 1 attack base at S4, all of this for 15ppm. Ork boyz on the other hand were T4 1W 6+ save, had a single shot pistol. They had 2 attacks base (3 for CCW) at S3 base but went to S4 +1 attack on the charge. Also they were movement 6. And they cost 6ppm. Math time: An Ork boy was 40% the price of a Marine and against basic S4 weaponry the Marine was 300% more durable (boyz required basically 1 S4 wound to die, Marines took 3. In CC the Ork was able to kill 0.33 Space Marines a turn or about 5ppm of Marines. The Marine was able to kill 0.4 Orkz a turn or about 2.4pts in CC.

9th (right now) The Marine is now 2W, his boltgun has twice as many shots at max range, he still gets +1 attack on the charge and depending on what turn it is, his bolter might be AP-1. All of that for 18pts or +3pts since 4th which means 20%. The Ork on the other hand has gained permanent S4 instead of just on the charge, he lost 1 movement and +1 attack on the charge. Hes gone up 33% in price to 8ppm Ork boyz are now 44.4% the price of a Marine. In CC that ork is now able to do 0.33dmg to a Marine which is now equivalent to 3ppm of Marines a turn. The Marine on the other hand is now killing 0.55 orkz a turn or a bit over 4pts of Ork boyz a turn.

Durability wise, it takes about the same amount of dmg to kill 1 boy, 1 wound. (1.2 if you want to be exact) But the Marine...the Marine is now taking 6 wounds to kill or 200% increase in durability vs S4 1D weapons.

So that means that the Space Marine is now 66% more deadly against an Ork boy while also being cheaper comparatively. Durability wise the Marine is now 500% more durable vs D1 weapons than the ork boy. So when you sit there and say that ork boyz going to T5 is breaking the game for you...its been broken for awhile now.

Also, on the off chance you actually wanted to know. A Marine with a bolt gun at max range is currently killing 0.55 boyz a turn. When Boyz go to T5 that same Marine is going to be killing 0.37 boyz a turn. So instead of needing 2 Marines to kill 1 Boy, it will now take *Gasp* 3.

 Xenomancers wrote:

FNP 6+ would have been more than adequate.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You are right ofc.
Typical anti space marine rhetoric will follow though...bolter porn...ect. They should have just given orks a FNP if they wanted to make them tougher.


Snakebites already have 6+ FNP. Want to know how useful a 6+ FNP is in terms of durability? That T5 reduces dmg taken from bolters by the aforementioned 33% (Wounding on 5s instead of 4s). 33% more durable vs common S4 weaponry. A 6+ FNP for all orkz means a couple things. 1: The save part now takes significantly longer, role a D6 for saves and than a D6 for FNP on 30 boyz...kind of annoying, but here is the best part against that S4 bolter with a 6+ FNP you go from a single Marine killing 0.55 Orkz a turn to... 0.458 An increase in durability of 1/6th or 16.6% but its even better than that, and ironically worse for Space Marines. Why? Because if you gave Ork boyz a 6+FNP (assuming the painboy can boost it to 5+ because otherwise what is its point?) you will see even less D1 weaponry. Why? Because D1 weaponry already isn't effective against Space Marines (The most popular faction) and if orkz got a 6+(5+) FNP than D2 weapons would actually be MORE effective against ork boyz and would therefore be taken even more regularly which would further diminish the return on investment of a 2nd wound for Space Marines.

Congrats, your suggestion would Make your Marines worse.

Ulthanashville wrote:

Tau are still the kings of shooty


....well.... kind of? Just to rehash how broken Marine stats have become of late. Tau are kind of famous for being a gun line right? their basic infantry/troops are amazing with their BS4 S5 30' range weaponry right? Well, guess what? Those Tau firewarriors who are the kings of shooty...yeah, they lose in in a gun fight to Intercessors

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I do worry that we're going to be returning to the old rock/paper/scissors dynamic.

Is it going to be possible to bring enough firepower to simultaneously deal with all these variant interpretations of "tough infantry"?

TAC listss have an inherent problem in 40k that any given faction is almost always skewed to some level of durability or another.
If you bring a mix of anti-horde, anti-elite, and anti-tank guns against any given army at least one of those is not going to have any targets. Now they're adding more and more nuanced statlines but with the same skewed distributions things will only get worse imo.


return to it? Bud its been hardcore R/P/S for awhile now. Orkz have only been able to make it in tournaments by thriving on the fact that ATM most armies are taking Rock, to smash Scissors (D2 high AP weapons to kill multi-wound high save Marines). And that Rock doesn't do well when it encounters cheap throwaway paper troops

As far as TAC lists, I can't remember the last time I saw a tac list at a tournament. Even the most "TAC" type lists are usually 60/40 Anti-tank to anti-infantry and that anti-infantry weaponry usually is easily buffed to be anti-elite infantry.

 Matt Swain wrote:
orks were tougher than humans, that's fine, but tougher than a generically and surgically altered transhuman warrior? That just doesn't seem right.

orks were dangerous to marines by out numbering them heavily.

I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


Are you aware of the Origins of Orkz? Orkz are more technologically advanced in terms of their creation than Space Marines and by a LONG SHOT. Orkz were created by the Old ones (brain boyz) to fight against the C'tan and Necrons in the war of the heavens. So an advanced civilization capable of fighting against literal star gods created "Krorkz" to fight their wars and be ridiculously durable and capable of joining the battle almost upon birth. So when you say it doesn't seem right, well, that depends entirely upon your perspective doesn't it?

Orkz though are supposed to be dangerous to Marines and basically everyone else by outnumbering them heavily. The problem is that as I spelled out above, Orkz are currently MORE expensive per model compared to Space Marines than they used to be, while at the same time being significantly less durable AND less capable of damaging them.

The 6+ FNP is already a thing for Orkz, specifically Snakebites Klan and also any klan if they take a Painboy who can give every unit partially within 3' of him a 6+FNP. The problems with 6+FNP are already mentioned, but to rehash them, it slows the game down and has a marginal impact on durability (16.6%) while being even less of an impact vs D2+ weapons, which are currently very popular due to the most popular army (Marines) being W2-W3 on their infantry.
Minor nitpick, Semper-a 6+ FNP improves durability by 20% against D1 weapons.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 14:07:14


Post by: SemperMortis


 JNAProductions wrote:
Minor nitpick, Semper-a 6+ FNP improves durability by 20% against D1 weapons.


Fun with percentages. its 16.6% or 20% depending upon how you do the math. In absolute terms a 6+ FNP means if you have 60 wounded boyz you will lose 50 of them and save 10. 10 is 1/6th of 60 or 16.6%

The other way to do the math is figuring out specifically how much dmg is required to kill 1 boy. You would assume it would take an extra 16.6% dmg to kill a boy with a 6+ fnp, but its actually 20%. So if 1 dmg killed before, to kill 1 with a 6+ FNP it becomes 1.2 dmg

Don't worry, I appreciate the nitpick entirely


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 14:17:45


Post by: Jidmah


Three time's the charm, two threads weren't sufficient for this I guess.

You are essentially just applying your head-canon to abstract numbers. "Hard to kill" is not just a single number, it's a combination of toughness, armor saves, number of wounds, FNP, invulnerable saves and few other special rules. This is the reason why guardsmen currently are harder to kill than ork boyz, which should be the other way around. Orks will not be tougher than marines - because Marines have better armor and an additional wound over them.

Orks, as a whole army, currently don't function as portrayed in the fluff on the tabletop. If changing any of the numbers makes the army as a whole feel and play like orks again, what does it matter whether a model has a 4 or 5 in its statblock?


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 14:29:05


Post by: G00fySmiley


basically disagree with the OP on everything. its been mathed out but to reiterate from a gameplay standard T5 and retaining 1 wound is going to make piloting an ork army easier than if they had gotten 2 would like marines have. it makes sense to give the space marine and some more elite units more wounds as you can track wounds in a 5 man squad pretty easy.

I am not sure it has been noted here yet but I actually think this will be a small buff to space marines. I see a lot of people complain about all the D2 weapons out there. if there are more ork horde lists where that D2 is useless then maybe people will take a larger variety of weapons as they may face T5 boyz 1w sv6+ and also have to prepare for T4 W2 sv 3+ marines.

finally to address "the tau are supposed to be a shooting army" look Richard Siegler (used to be in my meta area until the recent move) who is probably one of if not the most successful Tau players out there will tell you Tau are a movement army. if you are playing them as a gunline against a halfway decent player you will lose in 9th. He did a good interview on 40k statcenter on YouTube this morning about it, btu if you see his games and playstyle you will see how Tau actually should be played (the man brings vespids)


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 14:32:37


Post by: Keramory


I'm still up in the air on the t5 change, as an ork player.

I'm praying that they don't go up in points, because I want to bring 120 boys and run them down the field.

Most people here seem to argue that t5 orks are still very killable, but I'm not sold on it as of yet. I'm still not sure as a player of other armies that a standard list (not countering) has enough dakka to remove 120 t5 models.

As for rules=lore, it is pretty funny and bizarre knowing a single shirtless boy is as tough as a scout sentinel.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 14:38:04


Post by: Castozor


I played with the old T5 5+ FNP 3+ save PM's and I can assure you merely being T5 will not prevent you from removing them from the field by the handful. Obviously removing 120 will be hard if you put your list full of anti-tank but that's half of their list in just boyz, the other half will most likely be support elements. If the more durable T4 2W marines didn't break the game, neither will T5 boyz.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 14:43:08


Post by: Keramory


 Castozor wrote:
I played with the old T5 5+ FNP 3+ save PM's and I can assure you merely being T5 will not prevent you from removing them from the field by the handful. Obviously removing 120 will be hard if you put your list full of anti-tank but that's half of their list in just boyz, the other half will most likely be support elements. If the more durable T4 2W marines didn't break the game, neither will T5 boyz.


I hope so. I play with a bunch of average players with average collections. With that I could bring 120 boyz and it be an epic close game either way. Only thing I can compare the new change to is Plague Marine or Custode t5... and even before the saves what a difference it is trying to get the wound on a model with bolters lol.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 14:53:36


Post by: the_scotsman


Keramory wrote:
I'm still up in the air on the t5 change, as an ork player.

I'm praying that they don't go up in points, because I want to bring 120 boys and run them down the field.

Most people here seem to argue that t5 orks are still very killable, but I'm not sold on it as of yet. I'm still not sure as a player of other armies that a standard list (not countering) has enough dakka to remove 120 t5 models.

As for rules=lore, it is pretty funny and bizarre knowing a single shirtless boy is as tough as a scout sentinel.


Taking a peek at my 'worst army in the game' GSC for a sec, a Goliath truck with Neophytes in it equipped with Seismic Cannons takes out just about 5 T5 boyz in shooting for a 24% points return, which is about normal for a non-specialized troop unit. My specialized anti-infantry choice, 5x hand flamer acolytes, again kill about 5 boyz on the drop, returning 80% of their points assuming they do not successfully charge into melee.

given that boyz are the cheapest "boyz-chassis" ork unit around, that's a perfectly reasonable spread between a TAC choice unit's returns and a specialized choice unit's returns against them, and we are using as our example here a steel-man of what is currently the worst army in the game.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 14:57:35


Post by: catbarf


 Matt Swain wrote:
I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


6+ FNP is a textbook bad mechanic- lots of rolling for little effect. Doubly so when it's army-wide and comes into play on every single roll.

GW's rightfully moving away from those in favor of more straightforward mechanics.

Also, I'm not sure if it's been pointed out yet: Orks going to T5 helps balance out their offense and defense. Basic Boyz being T4/W1/6+ but having potentially 4 attacks at WS3+/S4 made them very glass-hammer, which is extremely weird for Greenskins. The only two directions GW could go to address it would be to either reduce their offense and cost, making them essentially 'Guardsmen but green', or increase their durability to compensate.

They've long been portrayed in the fluff as extremely durable, violent, and dangerous. This is an improvement, and in line with the expansion of infantry statlines ever since Primaris bumped the basic Marine profile to W2.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 15:06:24


Post by: Jidmah


Keramory wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
I played with the old T5 5+ FNP 3+ save PM's and I can assure you merely being T5 will not prevent you from removing them from the field by the handful. Obviously removing 120 will be hard if you put your list full of anti-tank but that's half of their list in just boyz, the other half will most likely be support elements. If the more durable T4 2W marines didn't break the game, neither will T5 boyz.


I hope so. I play with a bunch of average players with average collections. With that I could bring 120 boyz and it be an epic close game either way. Only thing I can compare the new change to is Plague Marine or Custode t5... and even before the saves what a difference it is trying to get the wound on a model with bolters lol.


There is no need to hope when you can just calculate it

Orks going from T4 to 5 affects three strength values: S4, S5, S8 and S9. Weapons with S2, S3, S6, S7, S10 and mortal wounds will work just as well as before. The one hit the worst is S4, going from a 50% chance to wound to a 33.33% chance to wound.

So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 15:13:37


Post by: oni


I said previously that T5 Boyz feels odd, but I think I can be convinced once I see it in action.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 15:42:40


Post by: Xenomancers


Kitane wrote:
I will wait for my judgment after the Nid codex is out, as the Nids are in desperate need of a stat overhaul.

But T5 boys aren't even remotely as bad for the game and immersion as the last two years of Cawl-sponsored marine circus.

You just made your opinion invalid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


6+ FNP is a textbook bad mechanic- lots of rolling for little effect. Doubly so when it's army-wide and comes into play on every single roll.

GW's rightfully moving away from those in favor of more straightforward mechanics.

Also, I'm not sure if it's been pointed out yet: Orks going to T5 helps balance out their offense and defense. Basic Boyz being T4/W1/6+ but having potentially 4 attacks at WS3+/S4 made them very glass-hammer, which is extremely weird for Greenskins. The only two directions GW could go to address it would be to either reduce their offense and cost, making them essentially 'Guardsmen but green', or increase their durability to compensate.

They've long been portrayed in the fluff as extremely durable, violent, and dangerous. This is an improvement, and in line with the expansion of infantry statlines ever since Primaris bumped the basic Marine profile to W2.
It's a 20% reduction in damage taken including mortal wounds. It is incredibly good. The best thing about it is - it doesn't change what weapons are effective against the unit. Bolters wounding an ork on a 5....is obviously backwards. Their shoota wound the marine on a 4. The mutant superhuman in full plate armor is wounded easier than the teashirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles. It is beyond stupid.

It is a play to sell heavy intercessors.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 15:50:27


Post by: catbarf


 Xenomancers wrote:
Bolters wounding an ork on a 5....is obviously backwards. Their shoota wound the marine on a 4. The mutant superhuman in full plate armor is wounded easier than the teashirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles. It is beyond stupid.


Take it up with GW for deciding to represent Marine toughness as W2, I guess. You're still tougher than Orks regardless.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 15:51:50


Post by: Mr. Grey


Their shoota wound the marine on a 4. The mutant superhuman in full plate armor is wounded easier than the teashirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles. It is beyond stupid.


Not a math guy, but it seems to me that the mutant superhuman also has a way better chance of making his armor save against that checks notes AP 0 shoota, while the t-shirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles will generally die to a bolter shot if the space marines makes his wound roll.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 15:52:20


Post by: Castozor


Except they are not wounded easier, you said it yourself "full plate armour", you have 1 wound and a 3+ save over their 6+.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 15:53:37


Post by: Selfcontrol


I admire the people who are still willing to talk to Xenomancer.

To answer the OP :

No, it will not break the setting.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 15:58:14


Post by: Xenomancers


 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Bolters wounding an ork on a 5....is obviously backwards. Their shoota wound the marine on a 4. The mutant superhuman in full plate armor is wounded easier than the teashirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles. It is beyond stupid.


Take it up with GW for deciding to represent Marine toughness as W2, I guess. You're still tougher than Orks regardless.

Uhhh - a marine being tough is obvious. They are 3 times the size of a human and are wearing full powered plate armor. The joke is that they were t4 3+ 1 wound for so long which is why they were never used. Pathetic given that marines are the most popular unit in the game and without marines the game would literally die. GW finally realized giving their base a fair chance was a good idea.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:00:27


Post by: catbarf


 Xenomancers wrote:
Uhhh - a marine being tough is obvious. They are 3 times the size of a human and are wearing full powered plate armor. The joke is that they were t4 3+ 1 wound for so long which is why they were never used.


An Ork being tough is obvious. They are 3 times the size of a human and have a distributed physiology that makes them extremely difficult to kill. The joke is that they were T4 6+ 1 wound for so long which made them barely any tougher than Guardsmen.

See how that works?


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:00:40


Post by: Tycho


Selfcontrol wrote:


To answer the OP :

No, it will not break the setting.


Yeah agree. This came up when First Born Marines first got 2 wounds. A bunch of people wanted Boys to get two wounds in response, and a bunch (myself included) were arguing for this exact change instead. Maybe I turn out to be wildly incorrect, but on paper, I'm a fan of this move.It gives more toughness to the Boys, and better reflects their much renowned ability to take serious damage and keep on ticking, while differentiating them from Marines by not jus lazily handing out an extra wound. I like it.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:03:04


Post by: Xenomancers


Selfcontrol wrote:
I admire the people who are still willing to talk to Xenomancer.

To answer the OP :

No, it will not break the setting.

Well - hope you get banned for breaking the terms of service. Enjoy the report.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:03:52


Post by: Pacific


 oni wrote:
I said previously that T5 Boyz feels odd, but I think I can be convinced once I see it in action.


Not sure if this has been covered in preceding pages, but this actually takes the game back to its roots! Marines were initially T3 and Orks T4, so GW are honouring the original lore here



Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:07:17


Post by: Selfcontrol


Tycho wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:


To answer the OP :

No, it will not break the setting.


Yeah agree. This came up when First Born Marines first got 2 wounds. A bunch of people wanted Boys to get two wounds in response, and a bunch (myself included) were arguing for this exact change instead. Maybe I turn out to be wildly incorrect, but on paper, I'm a fan of this move.It gives more toughness to the Boys, and better reflects their much renowned ability to take serious damage and keep on ticking, while differentiating them from Marines by not jus lazily handing out an extra wound. I like it.


I also think it is good for the game to have a wide variety of profiles for infantry units.

It reduces the risk of having one "perfect" weapon capable of answering any kind of threat and it might help weapons which were not used a lot anymore (like autocanons).


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:10:34


Post by: Tycho


Selfcontrol wrote:
Tycho wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:


To answer the OP :

No, it will not break the setting.


Yeah agree. This came up when First Born Marines first got 2 wounds. A bunch of people wanted Boys to get two wounds in response, and a bunch (myself included) were arguing for this exact change instead. Maybe I turn out to be wildly incorrect, but on paper, I'm a fan of this move.It gives more toughness to the Boys, and better reflects their much renowned ability to take serious damage and keep on ticking, while differentiating them from Marines by not jus lazily handing out an extra wound. I like it.


I also think it is good for the game to have a wide variety of profiles for infantry units.

It reduces the risk of having one "perfect" weapon capable of answering any kind of threat and it might help weapons which were not used a lot anymore (like autocanons).


I hadn't considered that part, but it's a great point! Hopefully things like this and the DG changes slowly help un-flatten the curve that's seen Plasma as the go-to for so long. Would love to see more variety of weapons on the table again.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:11:03


Post by: Quasistellar


Orks at t5 seem ok to me. I'm not so specifically attached to fluff that I can't accept a game mechanic.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:17:17


Post by: Spoletta


To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:17:39


Post by: a_typical_hero


T5 seems unfitting for me, but I will accept it as currently being the cleanest way to implement a higher resiliency to damage.

If dice rolling wouldn't be an issue, FnP would be more thematic for me.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:17:40


Post by: PaddyMick


 Pacific wrote:
 oni wrote:
I said previously that T5 Boyz feels odd, but I think I can be convinced once I see it in action.


Not sure if this has been covered in preceding pages, but this actually takes the game back to its roots! Marines were initially T3 and Orks T4, so GW are honouring the original lore here


Not only that, but in the meantime Boltguns got better too. They used to only fire once.
It's fine, the marines will just keep shooting until the ork is dead.

I have to laugh at the phrase 'break the setting'. It's a bit more robust than that I reckon.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:21:32


Post by: Pacific


Lol indeed - and it's a tiny speck of dirt in comparison to the giant two-flush megadump that was dropped on the setting in the form of Cawl, Primaris and all of that nonsense


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:22:41


Post by: Karol


 Jidmah wrote:


So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:27:04


Post by: Selfcontrol


Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


I completely abandonned the idea of competing against 9th Codices with 8th Codices (at least, for most armies).

The differences in design are simply too great.

It sucks because of how GW releases its rules, but I made peace with that.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:28:01


Post by: Karol


 Castozor wrote:
Except they are not wounded easier, you said it yourself "full plate armour", you have 1 wound and a 3+ save over their 6+.

But at what cost. a 1W model with a +3sv, that is more often then not downgraded to something lower , isn't as tough as two and a half model model with t4, and t-shirt. specially vs non multi shot weapons. Losing 8pts of ork to a multi melta is laughable, losing 40pts of a termintor is not, and the termintor is not 5 times as resilient as the orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Selfcontrol 799075 11150993 wrote:

I completely abandonned the idea of competing against 9th Codices with 8th Codices (at least, for most armies).

The differences in design are simply too great.

It sucks because of how GW releases its rules, but I made peace with that.

harlequins and custodes are doing just fine. SoB were doing more then fine with an 8th ed codex too. So it is not always the case, but you are right sometimes the difference is so big, that it does warrent a question of why bother. Specially if you just have an army and not a 10k pts collection of every model for the army ever made multiple times.

Just last week someone got with tau, in to top 8 of a large tournament in the US. Great achivment, but I don't think many people could do the same, even outside of a tournament setting and with the top 8 army.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:33:50


Post by: Tycho


Spoletta wrote:
To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?


Ok. There HAS to be a line somewhere ... T5 nid Warriors is just totally unreasonable and I won't stand for it! I can't have armies I don't play getting all these buffs!

Joking of course.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 16:36:00


Post by: G00fySmiley


Spoletta wrote:
To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?


I am hoping they up warriors to T5, they should have already been there given the size and background. when i look at a wraithguard squad vs a tyranid warrior squad i see way to big of a difference for the points. Some of the bigger xenoporphs like the mawlock / trygon go up to T7 or even T8 for the carnifex representing it being dead ard to kill. thematically the T7 means mostly protection from s6 shooting, the usual bolter and space marine attacks still wound on 5's as they did before. then in the case of the carnifex it just goes back to the beatstick it used to be.

from a game perspective i like the idea of the designers messing with more stats, it might make dual profile weapons liek the imperial missile launcher or the Eldar fire prism more valuable for the points ratehr than the too expensive for the profiles


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 17:06:02


Post by: Xenomancers


The only armies that need durability buffs are tyranids and Imperial knights.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 17:25:59


Post by: Pyroalchi


@ Karol: I don't know if that is a consolidation, but I would See it this way: increasing Ork toughness instead of wounds or FNP kept them exactly as vulnerable against smite etc. then before. I wish your GK the best in your codex that you can use this to compete.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 17:26:37


Post by: Voss


 G00fySmiley wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?


I am hoping they up warriors to T5, they should have already been there given the size and background. when i look at a wraithguard squad vs a tyranid warrior squad i see way to big of a difference for the points. Some of the bigger xenoporphs like the mawlock / trygon go up to T7 or even T8 for the carnifex representing it being dead ard to kill. thematically the T7 means mostly protection from s6 shooting, the usual bolter and space marine attacks still wound on 5's as they did before. then in the case of the carnifex it just goes back to the beatstick it used to be.

from a game perspective i like the idea of the designers messing with more stats, it might make dual profile weapons liek the imperial missile launcher or the Eldar fire prism more valuable for the points ratehr than the too expensive for the profiles


I actually want tyranids to get the '-1 damage' rule more than T5 for the mid-bugs, even if its just a rider on Synapse. The auto-spam anti-everything (s5-7, D2) weapons just get too much play at this point. But if someone wants to dedicate AT weapons to obliterating mid-sized bugs, that's absolutely fine.
Monsters need to be reworked entirely, because something's gone seriously wrong.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 18:20:23


Post by: the_scotsman


Selfcontrol wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


I completely abandonned the idea of competing against 9th Codices with 8th Codices (at least, for most armies).

The differences in design are simply too great.

It sucks because of how GW releases its rules, but I made peace with that.


Taking a quick peek at 40k stats for the past month, 6 of the top 10 factions in the game currently are rocking 8th edition codexes. 4 out of, if I'm tracking this correctly, 7 books released for ninth so far are below a 50% winrate.

The power creep is....real, I guess?


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 18:32:02


Post by: Xenomancers


 the_scotsman wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


I completely abandonned the idea of competing against 9th Codices with 8th Codices (at least, for most armies).

The differences in design are simply too great.

It sucks because of how GW releases its rules, but I made peace with that.


Taking a quick peek at 40k stats for the past month, 6 of the top 10 factions in the game currently are rocking 8th edition codexes. 4 out of, if I'm tracking this correctly, 7 books released for ninth so far are below a 50% winrate.

The power creep is....real, I guess?

This is pretty consistent for GW power creep. They come out with some bad books inbtween the super OP ones. Power creep is really just talking about the ceiling. You know...like the insanity of admech.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 18:37:57


Post by: Karol


Who knows, maybe at the end of 9th, it is going to be the most balanced edition GW ever made.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 18:56:26


Post by: Voss


 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


I completely abandonned the idea of competing against 9th Codices with 8th Codices (at least, for most armies).

The differences in design are simply too great.

It sucks because of how GW releases its rules, but I made peace with that.


Taking a quick peek at 40k stats for the past month, 6 of the top 10 factions in the game currently are rocking 8th edition codexes. 4 out of, if I'm tracking this correctly, 7 books released for ninth so far are below a 50% winrate.

The power creep is....real, I guess?

This is pretty consistent for GW power creep. They come out with some bad books inbtween the super OP ones. Power creep is really just talking about the ceiling. You know...like the insanity of admech.

Nope.
Power creep is specifically about each codex being stronger and stronger. [I'm not sure what the 'bad' 9th edition books are, by the way, and I'm really curious which ones are in between the 'super OP ones']

And his point is, several 8th edition books are still at the top- more than half of the top 10. If the power creep is 'real,' then that wouldn't be happening at all.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 18:58:25


Post by: Altima


Just think of T5 orks as T4 with FnP. Statistically, they about equal out, and there's already enough ungodly dice rolling in this edition as is.

If anything, what upsets me most about this change is that it'll make T5 primaris inevitable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?


I'm personally hoping that anything bigger than a gribbly gets a two toughness bump at the very least for tyranids. Six toughness (and a movie) warriors!


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 19:15:05


Post by: a_typical_hero


Altima wrote:
Just think of T5 orks as T4 with FnP. Statistically, they about equal out, and there's already enough ungodly dice rolling in this edition as is.

If anything, what upsets me most about this change is that it'll make T5 primaris inevitable.

We already have T5 Primaris for every battlefield role.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 19:17:48


Post by: Karol


Voss 799075 11151117 wrote:
Nope.
Power creep is specifically about each codex being stronger and stronger. [I'm not sure what the 'bad' 9th edition books are, by the way, and I'm really curious which ones are in between the 'super OP ones']

And his point is, several 8th edition books are still at the top- more than half of the top 10. If the power creep is 'real,' then that wouldn't be happening at all.

Deathwatch. They weren't great pre new codex, and they stayed under 50% win rate after the new book.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 19:23:45


Post by: SemperMortis


 catbarf wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


6+ FNP is a textbook bad mechanic- lots of rolling for little effect. Doubly so when it's army-wide and comes into play on every single roll.

GW's rightfully moving away from those in favor of more straightforward mechanics.

Also, I'm not sure if it's been pointed out yet: Orks going to T5 helps balance out their offense and defense. Basic Boyz being T4/W1/6+ but having potentially 4 attacks at WS3+/S4 made them very glass-hammer, which is extremely weird for Greenskins. The only two directions GW could go to address it would be to either reduce their offense and cost, making them essentially 'Guardsmen but green', or increase their durability to compensate.

They've long been portrayed in the fluff as extremely durable, violent, and dangerous. This is an improvement, and in line with the expansion of infantry statlines ever since Primaris bumped the basic Marine profile to W2.


I'm sorry Catbarf, but I have to disagree with you on one point. Ork boyz weren't/aren't Glass hammers. Glass hammer to me means they are fragile but can dish out a lot of dmg. Boyz...don't dish out dmg atm. they are more like a porcelain Hammer. Beautiful to look at, but they don't do much

Average boy is 3 attacks 2 hits, against T4 was 1 wound and against a Marine thats 0.33dmg, which means to average 1 dead Marine you needed 6 boyz in CC. That teamed with the new CC rules for this edition meant fewer boyz got into CC which means ork boyz weren't doing much dmg.

Karol wrote:

But at what cost. a 1W model with a +3sv, that is more often then not downgraded to something lower , isn't as tough as two and a half model model with t4, and t-shirt. specially vs non multi shot weapons. Losing 8pts of ork to a multi melta is laughable, losing 40pts of a termintor is not, and the termintor is not 5 times as resilient as the orks.


But at what cost, a 1W model with a 6+ save that is more often than not, not getting an armor save.

Also, the 2W Primaris Marine is more than 2.5x tougher than an Ork. Again, 1.2 wounds to kill an Ork boy, where as it takes 6 to kill a Marine. D2+ weapons is where Marines suffer, and T5 orkz actually help that since it forces more players to bring weapons better at killing orkz.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 19:49:42


Post by: Xenomancers


Voss wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


I completely abandonned the idea of competing against 9th Codices with 8th Codices (at least, for most armies).

The differences in design are simply too great.

It sucks because of how GW releases its rules, but I made peace with that.


Taking a quick peek at 40k stats for the past month, 6 of the top 10 factions in the game currently are rocking 8th edition codexes. 4 out of, if I'm tracking this correctly, 7 books released for ninth so far are below a 50% winrate.

The power creep is....real, I guess?

This is pretty consistent for GW power creep. They come out with some bad books inbtween the super OP ones. Power creep is really just talking about the ceiling. You know...like the insanity of admech.

Nope.
Power creep is specifically about each codex being stronger and stronger. [I'm not sure what the 'bad' 9th edition books are, by the way, and I'm really curious which ones are in between the 'super OP ones']

And his point is, several 8th edition books are still at the top- more than half of the top 10. If the power creep is 'real,' then that wouldn't be happening at all.

No - power creep is about power ceiling going up. There has never been an example of power going up consistently in each codex.

If you think about it. 9th eddition really started with the 8.5 marine codex.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 20:04:55


Post by: catbarf


SemperMortis wrote:
I'm sorry Catbarf, but I have to disagree with you on one point. Ork boyz weren't/aren't Glass hammers. Glass hammer to me means they are fragile but can dish out a lot of dmg. Boyz...don't dish out dmg atm. they are more like a porcelain Hammer. Beautiful to look at, but they don't do much

Average boy is 3 attacks 2 hits, against T4 was 1 wound and against a Marine thats 0.33dmg, which means to average 1 dead Marine you needed 6 boyz in CC. That teamed with the new CC rules for this edition meant fewer boyz got into CC which means ork boyz weren't doing much dmg.


That's fair. My experience has more typically been big mobs getting 4 attacks per model, and it's a decent amount of damage for their points, but the big problem as you note is that you never, ever get your full 100+ attacks from a big mob.

I like that Choppas are apparently going to AP-1 (assuming I read correctly that that's a thing and not just wishlisting), as it's a much more elegant way to represent them than the awkward rule back in the day where they reduced saves to 4+.

IMO it is perfectly fine for Orks to be individually tough, individually strong, and numerous. They're still not going to beat Marines one-on-one by any means but Guardsmen will be appropriately scared as they should be.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 20:27:02


Post by: leerm02


I would have personally preferred something a bit more nuanced. T5 just seems lazy. Maybe army wide fnp? Big point reduction for horde units? Something with a little more fun than just slapping on extra t.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 20:36:52


Post by: JohnnyHell


FNP wastes time with rolls with low chance of success. I find T5 more elegant.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 21:22:13


Post by: Castozor


Karol wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Except they are not wounded easier, you said it yourself "full plate armour", you have 1 wound and a 3+ save over their 6+.

But at what cost. a 1W model with a +3sv, that is more often then not downgraded to something lower , isn't as tough as two and a half model model with t4, and t-shirt. specially vs non multi shot weapons. Losing 8pts of ork to a multi melta is laughable, losing 40pts of a termintor is not, and the termintor is not 5 times as resilient as the orks.

Well I wrote that wrong, I meant they have 1 wound and the improved save over the boys, as in 2 wounds to 1. Also I addressed Xeno's complaint which seemed to come from a "this feels wrong lorewise" basis, whereas in the game your standard marine is till way tougher than the individual Ork. T5 is great, but so are 2 wounds and a 3+ save. If you want to talk purely balance wise though, your average Terminator is far more durable against small arms fire than the Ork to the point there is little sense in shooting anti-infantry small arms at Terminators. No one is shooting multi-melta at Ork boyz either unless they are either losing or winning extremely hard already.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 21:56:13


Post by: jeff white


I think that I like it. Keep humies at t3, marines and some characters t4, orks some t4 and some t5, ... why not? I like the idea overall.


Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 22:33:23


Post by: alextroy


I think that complaining about T5 Orks instead of 2 W or FNP Orks is complaining about the process instead of the results. Against the highly common S4 we have the following results:
  • T4 6+: 2.4 Hits to kill an Ork at S4 AP0
  • T4 6+ 6+++: 2.86 Hits to kill an Ork at S4 AP0
  • T5 6+: 3.6 Hits to kill an Ork at S4 AP0
  • T4 3+: 6 Hits per Space Marine Wound


  • So T5 Orks are tougher than T4 6+++ Orks with less dice rolling. What's not to like? And we have gone from old school where marines were 250% as resilient as Orks to new school 333% as resilient. But Marines suffer much more from any AP (AP -1 means 3 Hits to kill and Ork vs 8 to kill a 2 Wound Marine, 267% more resilient).

    So I for one welcome our T5 Ork overbosses


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 22:47:01


    Post by: pothocboots


    Throw another one onto the pile of T5 for Orks is not as immersion breaking for me as W2/T5W3 for marines was.

    In my ideal world of design T4 is superhuman and means it (in other words, lethality goes DOWN). Various factions have different defensive profiles. Eldar/Tau are hard to hit, by maneuvering or penalties I don't know. Marines are heavily armored. Tyranids/Orks have high wounds and numbers. Necrons are tough and reanimate, but aren't heavily armored.

    As mentioned by other posters in other threads. Marine durability is undone by their own popularity, as long as marines have the same profile as other marines they will never feel elite. Ork T5 could help, if gravis armor wasn't a thing.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/16 23:30:40


    Post by: Eldarsif


    leerm02 wrote:
    I would have personally preferred something a bit more nuanced. T5 just seems lazy. Maybe army wide fnp? Big point reduction for horde units? Something with a little more fun than just slapping on extra t.


    FNPs are boring as hell and just add rolling time and are the opposite of fun.

    Even more boys means games are slower, especially for the opponent, so that is also a bad choice. It's basically not fun to put ton of units that you immediately scoop up in a bucket. Units that you spent hours painting. Basically not fun.

    Toughess bump is basically the least problematic change to Orks as it fixes their durability a little and can actually be fun without detracting from the opponent's fun.

    On a side note I just find it peculiar and amusing that T5 Orks is breaking the game experience for people.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 01:32:37


    Post by: Jidmah


    Karol wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:


    So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

    That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


    Last time I checked GK had tons of weapons and psykers that don't give a damn about T5. And melee is always an option if you get to fight first. You can handle orks just as well as DG can.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 02:40:57


    Post by: Altima


     Eldarsif wrote:


    On a side note I just find it peculiar and amusing that T5 Orks is breaking the game experience for people.


    I mean, I can *kind of* get it. Orks have been T4 for 20+ years. In all that time, T4 has represented super human resilience--between space marines with their multiple redundant organs and overall specialness, Necrons with their living metal bodies, etc. T5 and higher was reserved for things like supernaturally infused creatures, living wraithbone constructs, monstrous creatures, and the like. The fact that orks and space marines aren't just overwhelming every game was that they were fighting other armies that were actually, y'know, armies of nightmarish creatures or hyper advanced aliens or well disciplined units--instead of half starved humans with stubbers and makeshift weapons.

    GW has made it clear that they've thrown out most of these stats as being anything close to loreful. Whether that's because they want to make a better game or just sell more models remains up for debate, though it does send a signal to players. A bunch of people will think, well, if orks are going from T4 to T5, why isn't 'X' doing the same.

    I wish GW had made this change with the new edition. It's such a significant change, and it's weird that half the edition they were T4 and the other half they're T5.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 02:49:06


    Post by: cody.d.


     Eldarsif wrote:
    leerm02 wrote:
    I would have personally preferred something a bit more nuanced. T5 just seems lazy. Maybe army wide fnp? Big point reduction for horde units? Something with a little more fun than just slapping on extra t.


    FNPs are boring as hell and just add rolling time and are the opposite of fun.


    I've also always found a 6+FNP to be really unsatisfying as well. You're going to fail it most of the time and rarely will you feel that "wow that extra save has made a massive difference" even if over the course of the game it has kept more orks alive than it statistically should.

    T5 kind of pushes that sensation onto the other side I guess, where the opponent will feel a bit meh when his 4s aren't wounding anymore with boltguns or his battlecannons aren't wounding on 2s anymore. But in theory he should still be taking out fair chunks of the ork units with any unit worth mentioning.

    So maybe this is a good fit as a way to make orks feel tougher without one side of the table feeling like either it's not doing anything or that the unit is too hard to kill?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 03:02:04


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


    Spoletta wrote:
    To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?
    They'll take away our armour saves to compensate for such a massive unheard of boost in power.

    And then they'll put the points up.



    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 03:20:26


    Post by: cody.d.


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Spoletta wrote:
    To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?
    They'll take away our armour saves to compensate for such a massive unheard of boost in power.

    And then they'll put the points up.



    Remember the days when synapse gave eternal warrior (when a lascannon would either take 1 wound off or instantly kill a model outright) and could buy extra toughness and saves? Scary days those were if i'm honest.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 07:11:55


    Post by: Blackie


     Xenomancers wrote:

    Bolters wounding an ork on a 5....is obviously backwards. Their shoota wound the marine on a 4. The mutant superhuman in full plate armor is wounded easier than the teashirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles. It is beyond stupid.



    It's perfectly right instead.

    Armour and t-shirts are not counted in the "to wound" roll, and the superhuman is still a humie . In fact SM still save on 3+ while orks only on 6+ so having +1T doesn't make two boyz as tough as one marine, the marine is still harder to kill and should definitely cost more than twice the points of a boy. Especially if he has the primaris bolter with higher range and AP.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Jidmah wrote:


    Last time I checked GK had tons of weapons and psykers that don't give a damn about T5. And melee is always an option if you get to fight first. You can handle orks just as well as DG can.


    They also have access to S6 AP-1 ranged weapons even on transports, which is gold against lots of (powerful) armies, not just orks.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 07:33:18


    Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


     Xenomancers wrote:
    It's a 20% reduction in damage taken including mortal wounds. It is incredibly good. The best thing about it is - it doesn't change what weapons are effective against the unit. Bolters wounding an ork on a 5....is obviously backwards. Their shoota wound the marine on a 4. The mutant superhuman in full plate armor is wounded easier than the teashirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles. It is beyond stupid.

    It is a play to sell heavy intercessors.


    Oh please give over mate, Marines have tons of tools and rules baked into units for durability, Orkz going to T5 is a fantastic way for them to feel more like what they should in the fluff. It is the ork players turn to feel the love like when Marines went to W2 across the board. Hell you have multiple T5 marines yourself in Gravis units which are tougher than equal pts worth of Ork boyz. Stop feeling like "oh nooo, Marines got shafted here!" when they've had the love, its time for other armies.

    The only armies I feel who can rightly feel annoyed at this is Tyranids and Custodes. And because of this example I believe GW will help expand them to be special in their own way. I

    Please be happy another army is getting love and some much needed boosts to a iconic unit like Marines have had aswell. a T5 ork still have 1 wound and armour is basically ignored vs anything short of a old bolt gun or las gun.

    Now MORE importantly - Will the Stompa get +1 T

    (Editted formatting, pre coffee is hard.)


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 07:35:04


    Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


    No.

    It’ll get +2 toughness.

    I can’t prove that. I have no basis for that. But you heard it here first, folks!


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 08:42:34


    Post by: Eldarsif


    cody.d. wrote:
     Eldarsif wrote:
    leerm02 wrote:
    I would have personally preferred something a bit more nuanced. T5 just seems lazy. Maybe army wide fnp? Big point reduction for horde units? Something with a little more fun than just slapping on extra t.


    FNPs are boring as hell and just add rolling time and are the opposite of fun.


    I've also always found a 6+FNP to be really unsatisfying as well. You're going to fail it most of the time and rarely will you feel that "wow that extra save has made a massive difference" even if over the course of the game it has kept more orks alive than it statistically should.

    T5 kind of pushes that sensation onto the other side I guess, where the opponent will feel a bit meh when his 4s aren't wounding anymore with boltguns or his battlecannons aren't wounding on 2s anymore. But in theory he should still be taking out fair chunks of the ork units with any unit worth mentioning.

    So maybe this is a good fit as a way to make orks feel tougher without one side of the table feeling like either it's not doing anything or that the unit is too hard to kill?


    Remember that the guys with Str 4 bolters is also most likely going to have some AP which will not give the Orks any saves. With the Primaris bolters(and doctrines) orks actually got their own nerf in the beginning of 8th and I'd say that the T5 is some counterbalance to that.

    What will be interesting to see if is the Deathskull sub-faction remains in place. It felt like a desperate way to fix the new age of AP -1 that hampered orks.

    GW has made it clear that they've thrown out most of these stats as being anything close to loreful. Whether that's because they want to make a better game or just sell more models remains up for debate, though it does send a signal to players. A bunch of people will think, well, if orks are going from T4 to T5, why isn't 'X' doing the same.


    Stats are essentially never reflecting lore as they are just subjective numbers assigned by a game developer. That has been so since the beginning of game design. The question is more how they will feel on the battlefield and I do get the feeling T5 will actually feel more "loreful" than the old T4. Orks are a horde, but they can take some beating and that has so far never been reflected well enough on the table.

    So I find it more meaningful to ask how Orks feel in a few months time when people have some experience playing with and against orks.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 10:26:37


    Post by: Jidmah


     Eldarsif wrote:
    GW has made it clear that they've thrown out most of these stats as being anything close to loreful. Whether that's because they want to make a better game or just sell more models remains up for debate, though it does send a signal to players. A bunch of people will think, well, if orks are going from T4 to T5, why isn't 'X' doing the same.


    Stats are essentially never reflecting lore as they are just subjective numbers assigned by a game developer. That has been so since the beginning of game design. The question is more how they will feel on the battlefield and I do get the feeling T5 will actually feel more "loreful" than the old T4. Orks are a horde, but they can take some beating and that has so far never been reflected well enough on the table.

    So I find it more meaningful to ask how Orks feel in a few months time when people have some experience playing with and against orks.


    This guy gets it.

    Maybe we should update dakka's swear filter:
    "It breaks my immersion" = "I don't like it"
    "It's bad game design" = "I don't like it"
    "It's bad for balance" = "I don't like it"


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 11:49:15


    Post by: the_scotsman


    Altima wrote:
    A bunch of people will think, well, if orks are going from T4 to T5, why isn't 'X' doing the same.


    ...Because GW has always had THREE stats, plus several special rules, to determine exactly how tough something is to bring down, and all of them pull mixed duty.

    In an ideal world, to encourage bringing weapon variety, it makes sense for GW to vary how they represent defenses between the armies. Marines have lower toughness, higher sv, and higher wounds to represent how hard they are to bring down. Necrons have lower wounds, lower toughness, and high sv, but they go down and get back up. Death Guard have higher than average toughness, average wounds and good save, and -1 damage, so you have to take them down with weight of shots. Eldar have low wounds and low toughness and make up for it with invulns, negative to hit mods and other 'tricks.'

    If you wanted me to design a good way for orks and nids to fit into that picture, i'd say orks should be high-T, low-W, low-Sv and nids should be low-T, High-W, low-sv.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 12:05:29


    Post by: G00fySmiley


     Eldarsif wrote:
    cody.d. wrote:
     Eldarsif wrote:
    leerm02 wrote:
    I would have personally preferred something a bit more nuanced. T5 just seems lazy. Maybe army wide fnp? Big point reduction for horde units? Something with a little more fun than just slapping on extra t.


    FNPs are boring as hell and just add rolling time and are the opposite of fun.


    I've also always found a 6+FNP to be really unsatisfying as well. You're going to fail it most of the time and rarely will you feel that "wow that extra save has made a massive difference" even if over the course of the game it has kept more orks alive than it statistically should.

    T5 kind of pushes that sensation onto the other side I guess, where the opponent will feel a bit meh when his 4s aren't wounding anymore with boltguns or his battlecannons aren't wounding on 2s anymore. But in theory he should still be taking out fair chunks of the ork units with any unit worth mentioning.

    So maybe this is a good fit as a way to make orks feel tougher without one side of the table feeling like either it's not doing anything or that the unit is too hard to kill?


    Remember that the guys with Str 4 bolters is also most likely going to have some AP which will not give the Orks any saves. With the Primaris bolters(and doctrines) orks actually got their own nerf in the beginning of 8th and I'd say that the T5 is some counterbalance to that.

    What will be interesting to see if is the Deathskull sub-faction remains in place. It felt like a desperate way to fix the new age of AP -1 that hampered orks.

    GW has made it clear that they've thrown out most of these stats as being anything close to loreful. Whether that's because they want to make a better game or just sell more models remains up for debate, though it does send a signal to players. A bunch of people will think, well, if orks are going from T4 to T5, why isn't 'X' doing the same.


    Stats are essentially never reflecting lore as they are just subjective numbers assigned by a game developer. That has been so since the beginning of game design. The question is more how they will feel on the battlefield and I do get the feeling T5 will actually feel more "loreful" than the old T4. Orks are a horde, but they can take some beating and that has so far never been reflected well enough on the table.

    So I find it more meaningful to ask how Orks feel in a few months time when people have some experience playing with and against orks.


    honestly i both loved and hated the deathskulls. with a 6+++ and a reroll to hit, to wound and damage per phase it is basically the necessary kulture outside of a greed tide list. i loved it in that is made playing orks better, our crappy shooting at least got one reroll to try and help fix things per unit. on the other hand I felt like rather than fix what was wrogn with orks for the past 3 editions in any meaningful way they just gave us a really powerful kulture while making all the others (outside goffs for melee) mediocre so you would almost always go deathskulls


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 12:16:55


    Post by: Karol


    SemperMortis 799075 11151142 wrote:
    But at what cost, a 1W model with a 6+ save that is more often than not, not getting an armor save.

    Also, the 2W Primaris Marine is more than 2.5x tougher than an Ork. Again, 1.2 wounds to kill an Ork boy, where as it takes 6 to kill a Marine. D2+ weapons is where Marines suffer, and T5 orkz actually help that since it forces more players to bring weapons better at killing orkz.

    A marine doesn't get a save more often then not either, or when he does it is a +5sv or +4sv. And 2W is not a thing for multiple marine armies. 1ksons, all the csm legions and GK too. And a t5 orkz does not help marine players one bit, no one is going to spend money, specially not outside of tournaments, to hard counter orks when there is maybe 1 ork player per multiple marine players at the store. At worse if orks really become a problem GW will get some crazy idea to make scatter lasers or shriker cannons str 5-6 d2 -2AP with 3-4 shots. Just look at what DE did to the meta with their new codex. By your logic, the need to counter DE should have made marines do better in the game. But nothing like that happened. In fact the weaker marines got even weaker.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 12:30:35


    Post by: Jidmah


    Karol wrote:
    SemperMortis 799075 11151142 wrote:
    But at what cost, a 1W model with a 6+ save that is more often than not, not getting an armor save.

    Also, the 2W Primaris Marine is more than 2.5x tougher than an Ork. Again, 1.2 wounds to kill an Ork boy, where as it takes 6 to kill a Marine. D2+ weapons is where Marines suffer, and T5 orkz actually help that since it forces more players to bring weapons better at killing orkz.

    A marine doesn't get a save more often then not either, or when he does it is a +5sv or +4sv. And 2W is not a thing for multiple marine armies. 1ksons, all the csm legions and GK too. And a t5 orkz does not help marine players one bit, no one is going to spend money, specially not outside of tournaments, to hard counter orks when there is maybe 1 ork player per multiple marine players at the store. At worse if orks really become a problem GW will get some crazy idea to make scatter lasers or shriker cannons str 5-6 d2 -2AP with 3-4 shots. Just look at what DE did to the meta with their new codex. By your logic, the need to counter DE should have made marines do better in the game. But nothing like that happened. In fact the weaker marines got even weaker.


    Do you not want to understand that GK will be updated as well? "Orks shouldn't get an update because some other armies haven't gotten one" is complete nonsense.

    Seriously, you should have understood that by now.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 12:35:48


    Post by: Karol


    Orks were already better then most marines without the +1T, updating them to be even better makes as much sense as updating SoB, or something like eldar, instead of Tau or GSC, who actually do need a codex writen with 9th ed in mind. Same with knights.

    I also find the "will be updated" argument strange. Who says, my codex won't end up like the DW one. DW got updated and they are bad. Plus soon means many things for GW.It could as well be after summer, and with how vaccinations works here, we are going to have another lock down in autum, which for me, means I would get to play with the rules, maybe in spring next year. That is one and a half year of an edition. Plus as I said this isn't just a me problem. Sure GK and 1ksons were suppose to be updated. But there is nothing said about chaos space marines.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 12:57:09


    Post by: fraser1191


    I see this more as orks being brought in line with marines, but in a different way.

    Orks are tough for sure, but they have no armor so when they do get wounded theres a good chance they'll die. This is just them getting around 2w, and a fnp. DE are "tougher" than cwe but not enough to reach T4, so they get a fnp. Seems reasonable, T5 orks seem reasonable.

    But I'll also say that reasonable increments could also be called creep. AlsoT5=less die rolling compared to a fnp and 2w so there's that


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 12:57:26


    Post by: Jidmah


    Karol wrote:
    Orks were already better then most marines without the +1T, updating them to be even better makes as much sense as updating SoB, or something like eldar, instead of Tau or GSC, who actually do need a codex writen with 9th ed in mind. Same with knights.

    There are no numbers to support that claim, quite the opposite. Orks are currently sitting at a below 50% winrate with, depending on which data you look at, 4-7 marine chapters outperforming them.
    Orks need a codex written with 9th in mind as much as any other faction.

    I also find the "will be updated" argument strange. Who says, my codex won't end up like the DW one. DW got updated and they are bad. Plus soon means many things for GW.It could as well be after summer, and with how vaccinations works here, we are going to have another lock down in autum, which for me, means I would get to play with the rules, maybe in spring next year. That is one and a half year of an edition. Plus as I said this isn't just a me problem. Sure GK and 1ksons were suppose to be updated. But there is nothing said about chaos space marines.


    So, since the codex CSM might be bad, GK should not get an extra wound and get no weapon updates whatsoever. Am I understanding your argument correctly?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 13:39:24


    Post by: the_scotsman


    Karol wrote:
    SemperMortis 799075 11151142 wrote:
    But at what cost, a 1W model with a 6+ save that is more often than not, not getting an armor save.

    Also, the 2W Primaris Marine is more than 2.5x tougher than an Ork. Again, 1.2 wounds to kill an Ork boy, where as it takes 6 to kill a Marine. D2+ weapons is where Marines suffer, and T5 orkz actually help that since it forces more players to bring weapons better at killing orkz.

    A marine doesn't get a save more often then not either, or when he does it is a +5sv or +4sv. And 2W is not a thing for multiple marine armies. 1ksons, all the csm legions and GK too. And a t5 orkz does not help marine players one bit, no one is going to spend money, specially not outside of tournaments, to hard counter orks when there is maybe 1 ork player per multiple marine players at the store. At worse if orks really become a problem GW will get some crazy idea to make scatter lasers or shriker cannons str 5-6 d2 -2AP with 3-4 shots. Just look at what DE did to the meta with their new codex. By your logic, the need to counter DE should have made marines do better in the game. But nothing like that happened. In fact the weaker marines got even weaker.


    Deathwatch post-codex pre-drukhari meta: 40% winrate.

    Deathwatch post-Drukhari meta: 51% winrate.

    Space Wolves post-codex pre-drukhari meta: 53% winrate

    Space Wolves post-drukhari meta: 43% winrate.

    it isn't clear what the effects of the drukhari nerfs will actually be, but a faction with a relatively small slice of the play meta and a massive insane winrate has not appeared to have resulted in the very worst factions getting better, instead previously 'pretty good' factions like space wolves and blood angels got absolutely tanked while several totally disregarded factions like thousand sons, eldar, deathwatch and tau have been sneaking unexpected top placings now that the play meta isn't totally homogenous heavy infantry lists.



    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 14:00:59


    Post by: SemperMortis


    Karol wrote:

    A marine doesn't get a save more often then not either, or when he does it is a +5sv or +4sv. And 2W is not a thing for multiple marine armies. 1ksons, all the csm legions and GK too. And a t5 orkz does not help marine players one bit, no one is going to spend money, specially not outside of tournaments, to hard counter orks when there is maybe 1 ork player per multiple marine players at the store. At worse if orks really become a problem GW will get some crazy idea to make scatter lasers or shriker cannons str 5-6 d2 -2AP with 3-4 shots. Just look at what DE did to the meta with their new codex. By your logic, the need to counter DE should have made marines do better in the game. But nothing like that happened. In fact the weaker marines got even weaker.


    Lets take a moment to appreciate the ridiculous nature of this post. A Marine doesn't get a save more often then not. That translates to more than half of the time a Marine does not get a save, and on those rare occasions they do its a 5+ or a 4+. I was unaware that all of my big shootas and shootas were now -1 to -4AP. I am even more surprised at this claim since I thought AP-4 was somewhat rare.

    Next complaint, not all Marine armies have 2W. Oh, well in that case we better not buff any other faction until every other Power armored model gets a 2nd wound.

    I also really want to point out one rather funny thing here. Here we have Karol arguing that Orkz going to T5 instead of getting a FNP isn't going to impact Marine players or specifically the anti-Marine meta because and I quote
    No one is going to spend money, specially not outside of tournaments, to hard counter orkz when there is maybe 1 ork player per multiple marine players at the store
    . I also want to further quote at tournaments
    if someone goes full anti marine meta, then they better be friends with the judges or the person who does the match ups, so they get those 2 DA games in match 3-5, because if they run in to SoB, DE or orks they are going to be very sad about their results.


    So you have Karol arguing that people aren't list building with Marines in mind because they might run into SoB, DE or Orkz and he is also arguing that nobody is preparing a list for orkz or DE in the very next quote.


    Also,
    By your logic, the need to counter DE should have made marines do better in the game.
    well lets see, DE have had a dex for 2 months. They are currently HEAVILY over represented in the tournament scene compared to 3+ months ago, but even then they still only represent a fraction of an event when compared to Marines. In the recent SUPER event in Atlantic city (250+ Competitors) Marines had about 1/4th of all lists, not including Grey knights, Custodes, Chaos or other Power armored armies. DE, the current meta hotness on the other hand had a massive (And I actually do mean massive) 12%. So even at full tilt, DE Managed to bring less than HALF of what Marine armies bring to a Super event. So why would you list build when you have a 1/8ish chance of even playing DE until the final games?

    I do also want to point out something related to another topic, that being specific Marine players insistence on using W/L as a proof of how well a faction is doing, but only specifically when trying to nerf other factions or prove that Marines need a buff. Since their codex dropped DE have had around a 30% W/L rate. By that metric, using those Marine player arguments, DE are in horrible need of a massive buff. On the other hand, the metric I've always said should measure whether a competitive army needs a buff, Top 4 Placings, DE are doing..PHENOMENAL! Since their codex dropped DE have 33 Top 4 placings in tournaments AND 12 #1 placings while also sweeping all 4 places in 1 event and taking 3 of the top 4 in 2 events. Just thought I would throw that little tidbit out there.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 14:06:04


    Post by: bullyboy


    Best thing about T5 6+ W1 Orks? My love for the assault cannon as my favourite 40k weapon

    S6 AP-1 1D? Why, thank you very much kind sir. Even better when it's twins...


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 14:59:22


    Post by: the_scotsman


    Semper I'm incredibly curious where you're getting "DE have had a 30% winrate overall since their codex."

    The places I generally go for competitive data have had DE as a very clear winrate outlier - 65%-75% depending on the week. Now, almost every major facet of their competitive lists did just get nerfed, and to my knowledge we have yet to see any post-nerf major events, just like we haven't seen any post-codex major events for Admech. So we don't know where the numbers are for drukhari without Dark Technomancers, without blender succubus, without +2CP and with +10pt raiders. It's not yet even close to clear whether that's enough of a nerf, but it is absolutely clear that a nerf was warranted, just like it was clear a nerf was warranted after the supplements first came out with marines 2.0.



    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 15:03:51


    Post by: leerm02


    So I'm going to do an internet faux pas here;
    I think you guys have actually convinced me to change my mind.

    Honestly, it was the maths that did it. I still would prefer some weird fluffy rule over t5, but after seeing the maths breakdown and discussion about how much useless rolling is gotten rid of, I'm on board with t5 orks.

    The other factors, to me, is that this news will likely make the Ork players really happy and in turn inspire more varied opponents at my LGS. To me that is a very good thing! I honestly can't remember the last time Ork players got such a good reason to get excited, and so as much as I would love some amazing alternative that no one has come up with, I'm on board with this change


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 15:04:03


    Post by: the_scotsman


    The most interesting thing to me about this recent meta over the last couple of months isn't whether or not drukhari are overpowered (they are) but how actually introducing a powerful army that plays in a different style than the absolute dominance of heavy infantry durability skew changes the performance of other armies.

    Some armies that were at the bottom - GSC, Knights and the like - have stayed there, while others like Tau, Deathwatch and Thousand Sons have pulled some pretty surprising wins out.

    Between DG, marines and custodes, the play meta was over 3/4s heavy infantry based factions prior to the drukhari dex taking a gigantic dump on all of them. the only other things you saw winning events were lists that were basically designed with the ethos of 'if I never ever face anything except heavy infantry lists, I will wreck face' like the all-slaanesh party time, ghazzy and the ladz and the harlequins' fusion spam.

    Now that drukhari and admech add threatening mechanized and light infantry based lists respectively, I'm really curious to see which armies are still looking totally unusable and which were just being held back by not being able to spec vs the power armored sausage party meta.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 15:05:02


    Post by: warhead01


     bullyboy wrote:
    Best thing about T5 6+ W1 Orks? My love for the assault cannon as my favourite 40k weapon

    S6 AP-1 1D? Why, thank you very much kind sir. Even better when it's twins...



    I very much agree. I've ben chatting with a friend about 40K and T5 Orks and I feel very much this will be good over all of all factions in the game. Gasp.
    I could very well be wrong. Fine. a lot of players of each faction look at their codex and dismiss many units or options because another option is more cost effective, the math hammer is just better at that time. Cost is a factor. T5 boys brings some of those choices back as something players will consider to have on hand if they want a stronger tac list, just incase. And we already suspect that once the Ork codex drops a lot of players will jump to Orks to play the new hotness, just like many already do for ever new faction. If, for example, SM's are just running a minimum of 3 troops 5 strong to pay their taxes then T5 Boys vs those units ST4 weapons is mostly meaningless. Those SM players will already have better options for shredding those T5 boys.
    We should also remember the variety of +1 to wound rolls or to hot rolls that exist. Along with the -1 to hit mechanics. Between these things it seems to me that GW wants players of every faction to have to fish for 4,5, and 6's. Or 5 and 6's. To me that's what 40K has become where it was less so before. This should, as as I said above I could be wrong, even the chances for every faction...and sell more new units as other factions like Nidz see some stat improvements here or there.

    And as boys ppm may go up to as much as 10 points the number of T5 boys goes down a bit still leaning into an advantage or at least lowering the disadvantage SM's face when being that outnumbered by T5 models.

    Or T5 Orks just made the autto-cannon a much better choice for the AM and selling more autto-cannons = profit.
    Just a thought anyway.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 15:23:56


    Post by: Pyroalchi


    Unfortunatly Autocannons are still worse than heavy bolters against anything not T6 (edit: and equal against T7) ... and even there the advantage is thin.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 15:27:41


    Post by: Jidmah


    leerm02 wrote:
    So I'm going to do an internet faux pas here;
    I think you guys have actually convinced me to change my mind.

    Honestly, it was the maths that did it. I still would prefer some weird fluffy rule over t5, but after seeing the maths breakdown and discussion about how much useless rolling is gotten rid of, I'm on board with t5 orks.

    The other factors, to me, is that this news will likely make the Ork players really happy and in turn inspire more varied opponents at my LGS. To me that is a very good thing! I honestly can't remember the last time Ork players got such a good reason to get excited, and so as much as I would love some amazing alternative that no one has come up with, I'm on board with this change


    That's not a faux pas, that's just changing your opinion based on new knowledge you gained. Which simply means that you are an intelligent person.

    It's just that the world is stupid for thinking that this is not the normal way to do it.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 15:30:26


    Post by: JNAProductions


     Jidmah wrote:
    leerm02 wrote:
    So I'm going to do an internet faux pas here;
    I think you guys have actually convinced me to change my mind.

    Honestly, it was the maths that did it. I still would prefer some weird fluffy rule over t5, but after seeing the maths breakdown and discussion about how much useless rolling is gotten rid of, I'm on board with t5 orks.

    The other factors, to me, is that this news will likely make the Ork players really happy and in turn inspire more varied opponents at my LGS. To me that is a very good thing! I honestly can't remember the last time Ork players got such a good reason to get excited, and so as much as I would love some amazing alternative that no one has come up with, I'm on board with this change


    That's not a faux pas, that's just changing your opinion based on new knowledge you gained. Which simply means that you are an intelligent person.

    It's just that the world is stupid for thinking that this is not the normal way to do it.
    Agreed 100%.

    Too many people get dug into their side (not even beliefs, really-just "I'm right you're wrong") and refuse to change, no matter what.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 15:37:03


    Post by: Xenomancers


    If you approve of a change - that makes a boltgun as effective against an ork as a lasgun. You are completely out of touch with the lore. You lose all creditbility in future lore arguements. "ahh yes, lasguns and bolters should have equal effect against orks"

    The sad part is - it's only fair if orks get a significant point bump...which will not help them in any way and in effect it will just make them worse against lasguns.

    Or it will not be fair and it will be nerfed.



    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 15:38:03


    Post by: JNAProductions


     Xenomancers wrote:
    If you approve of a change - that makes a boltgun as effective against an ork as a lasgun. You are completely out of touch with the lore. You lose all creditbility in future lore arguements. "ahh yes, lasguns and bolters should have equal effect against orks"

    The sad part is - it's only fair if orks get a significant point bump...which will not help them in any way and in effect it will just make them worse against lasguns.

    Or it will not be fair and it will be nerfed.

    That sounds like an issue with the wounding chart more than anything.

    Why is a Bolt Rifle no worse than a Heavy Bolter against Guardsmen?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 15:38:58


    Post by: Xenomancers


     JNAProductions wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    leerm02 wrote:
    So I'm going to do an internet faux pas here;
    I think you guys have actually convinced me to change my mind.

    Honestly, it was the maths that did it. I still would prefer some weird fluffy rule over t5, but after seeing the maths breakdown and discussion about how much useless rolling is gotten rid of, I'm on board with t5 orks.

    The other factors, to me, is that this news will likely make the Ork players really happy and in turn inspire more varied opponents at my LGS. To me that is a very good thing! I honestly can't remember the last time Ork players got such a good reason to get excited, and so as much as I would love some amazing alternative that no one has come up with, I'm on board with this change


    That's not a faux pas, that's just changing your opinion based on new knowledge you gained. Which simply means that you are an intelligent person.

    It's just that the world is stupid for thinking that this is not the normal way to do it.
    Agreed 100%.

    Too many people get dug into their side (not even beliefs, really-just "I'm right you're wrong") and refuse to change, no matter what.

    Some people are just smarter than others. Any change that makes a bolter and a lasgun equal against anything short of a custodian...is a bad change.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     JNAProductions wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    If you approve of a change - that makes a boltgun as effective against an ork as a lasgun. You are completely out of touch with the lore. You lose all creditbility in future lore arguements. "ahh yes, lasguns and bolters should have equal effect against orks"

    The sad part is - it's only fair if orks get a significant point bump...which will not help them in any way and in effect it will just make them worse against lasguns.

    Or it will not be fair and it will be nerfed.

    That sounds like an issue with the wounding chart more than anything.

    Why is a Bolt Rifle no worse than a Heavy Bolter against Guardsmen?

    It's not - it has more shots.

    This rule is being iterated against the current wounding chart. It's bad. It's a bad ploy to sell heavy intercessors.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 15:40:39


    Post by: JNAProductions


     Xenomancers wrote:
     JNAProductions wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    leerm02 wrote:
    So I'm going to do an internet faux pas here;
    I think you guys have actually convinced me to change my mind.

    Honestly, it was the maths that did it. I still would prefer some weird fluffy rule over t5, but after seeing the maths breakdown and discussion about how much useless rolling is gotten rid of, I'm on board with t5 orks.

    The other factors, to me, is that this news will likely make the Ork players really happy and in turn inspire more varied opponents at my LGS. To me that is a very good thing! I honestly can't remember the last time Ork players got such a good reason to get excited, and so as much as I would love some amazing alternative that no one has come up with, I'm on board with this change


    That's not a faux pas, that's just changing your opinion based on new knowledge you gained. Which simply means that you are an intelligent person.

    It's just that the world is stupid for thinking that this is not the normal way to do it.
    Agreed 100%.

    Too many people get dug into their side (not even beliefs, really-just "I'm right you're wrong") and refuse to change, no matter what.

    Some people are just smarter than others. Any change that makes a bolter and a lasgun equal against anything short of a custodian...is a bad change.
    You're right! That's why we should revert to the old wounding chart-make every point of Toughness matter.

    Because a Lasgun is just as effective against Sentinels as it is against Marines. That's a bad change!


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 15:50:00


    Post by: Xenomancers


     JNAProductions wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     JNAProductions wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    leerm02 wrote:
    So I'm going to do an internet faux pas here;
    I think you guys have actually convinced me to change my mind.

    Honestly, it was the maths that did it. I still would prefer some weird fluffy rule over t5, but after seeing the maths breakdown and discussion about how much useless rolling is gotten rid of, I'm on board with t5 orks.

    The other factors, to me, is that this news will likely make the Ork players really happy and in turn inspire more varied opponents at my LGS. To me that is a very good thing! I honestly can't remember the last time Ork players got such a good reason to get excited, and so as much as I would love some amazing alternative that no one has come up with, I'm on board with this change


    That's not a faux pas, that's just changing your opinion based on new knowledge you gained. Which simply means that you are an intelligent person.

    It's just that the world is stupid for thinking that this is not the normal way to do it.
    Agreed 100%.

    Too many people get dug into their side (not even beliefs, really-just "I'm right you're wrong") and refuse to change, no matter what.

    Some people are just smarter than others. Any change that makes a bolter and a lasgun equal against anything short of a custodian...is a bad change.
    You're right! That's why we should revert to the old wounding chart-make every point of Toughness matter.

    Because a Lasgun is just as effective against Sentinels as it is against Marines. That's a bad change!
    The lasgun is supposed to be the bottom of the barrel - A bolter is a powerful weapon more than capable of penetrating Astartes - an ork without armor is no contest for it.

    The issue has always been - the bolter being unperforming on the table for nearly the whole history of the game. Bolters are tecnically worse against orks than they've ever been...giving a 6+ save to an ork that used to get nothing...thats not good enough...now bolters have to wound a chaff infantry on 5's? GTFO.

    It is completely backwards and everyone knows it. Is everything ork getting +1 T also? Bikes? Buggies?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 15:59:45


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     bullyboy wrote:
    Best thing about T5 6+ W1 Orks? My love for the assault cannon as my favourite 40k weapon

    S6 AP-1 1D? Why, thank you very much kind sir. Even better when it's twins...

    I know the feeling. When I saw this change all I could think was: Reaper Chaincannon goes "Brrrrrrtttttt!".


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 16:01:20


    Post by: JNAProductions


    An Ork is still much less durable than a Marine against literally anything D1. Which is the majority of small arms fire in the game.

    Currently (before Orks get their T5) it takes 3.6 BS3+ Bolter shots to kill an Ork. (3, if AP-1.) It takes 18 of the same to kill a Marine. (12, if AP-1.)

    When Orks get T5, the numbers will increase to 5.4 and 4.5 In other words, an Ork is less than a third as tough as a Marine against Bolter base stats, and less than half as tough when AP-1.

    If you somehow got an AP-4 Bolter, it would take 6 shots to kill a Marine, and 4.5 to kill the Ork. The Marine is STILL MORE DURABLE when their armor is entirely negated.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 16:14:14


    Post by: Xenomancers


     JNAProductions wrote:
    An Ork is still much less durable than a Marine against literally anything D1. Which is the majority of small arms fire in the game.

    Currently (before Orks get their T5) it takes 3.6 BS3+ Bolter shots to kill an Ork. (3, if AP-1.) It takes 18 of the same to kill a Marine. (12, if AP-1.)

    When Orks get T5, the numbers will increase to 5.4 and 4.5 In other words, an Ork is less than a third as tough as a Marine against Bolter base stats, and less than half as tough when AP-1.

    If you somehow got an AP-4 Bolter, it would take 6 shots to kill a Marine, and 4.5 to kill the Ork. The Marine is STILL MORE DURABLE when their armor is entirely negated.

    Almost half the weapons in the game have d2+ almost half have ap-1 or 2.

    A primaris marine costs more than 2x and ork boy too (2x exactly if they go to 10 points). Has a fraction of the offense per point.


    T5 ork boys - IMO is the dumbest stat change in the history of 40k. I've played for more than 20 years.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 16:33:42


    Post by: evil_kiwi_60


    I scratch my head at the supposed fluff justifications for marines easily taking on orcs. Most works seem to feature orks being significantly stronger and tougher than the comparable level of marines. Belial is lucky to escape Ghaz at Kadillus. Rynn’s World feature the crimson fist chapter master struggling against the warboss that’s pummeling his chapter. I mean there’s even orks that are more or at least as powerful as the emperor in his prime. T5 orks aren’t out of line with the background.

    The problem only lays with the wounding chart where the S3 lasgun and the S4 bolter are now just as effective. Move off the D6 and we could get that granularity. And really it’s not like marines are hurting for tools to kill T5 orks. Assault cannons still exist for loyalists. Reaper chain cannons* and berserkers still exist for chaos.

    * pending the new codex making havocs take 1 reaper, heavy bolter, or autocannon, 1 heavy bolter or autocannon, and 2 lascannons or missile launchers.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 17:05:19


    Post by: Galas


    Bolters are wounding orks on 5+ thats true but most of the time that means a 5+ to outright kill the ork, something lasguns have not, having the ork then a 6+ chance to save.

    Why does people keep taking just one stat instead of the whole picture to compare stuff? You cannot just take the S value of a weapon and ignore AP and damage and special rules to say they are just the same. I mean a fething heavy bolter and a disintegrator cannon have the same strenght. How is that even fluffy? Oh, the dissy cannon has ap -3? And just before 9th it had damage 2 vs damage 1 of the heavy bolter? Ignore it!


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 17:16:46


    Post by: G00fySmiley


     evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
    I scratch my head at the supposed fluff justifications for marines easily taking on orcs. Most works seem to feature orks being significantly stronger and tougher than the comparable level of marines. Belial is lucky to escape Ghaz at Kadillus. Rynn’s World feature the crimson fist chapter master struggling against the warboss that’s pummeling his chapter. I mean there’s even orks that are more or at least as powerful as the emperor in his prime. T5 orks aren’t out of line with the background.

    The problem only lays with the wounding chart where the S3 lasgun and the S4 bolter are now just as effective. Move off the D6 and we could get that granularity. And really it’s not like marines are hurting for tools to kill T5 orks. Assault cannons still exist for loyalists. Reaper chain cannons* and berserkers still exist for chaos.

    * pending the new codex making havocs take 1 reaper, heavy bolter, or autocannon, 1 heavy bolter or autocannon, and 2 lascannons or missile launchers.


    i find most people only think of orks to be like they were portrayed in the space marine game and seem to think that they should have a marine be able to face down the whole horde or orks single handedly before beating down the warboss. It doesn't matter to them any amount of actual book info liek how the orks almost killed the big E and a primarchs struggling and losing to orks being forced to withdraw from the field in a fighting retreat isn't something they are prepared to deal with. I guess since the Big E made the space marines to be genetically improved super soldiers based on base model humans it makes space marines better than what happened when the old ones created their genetically engineered from scratch to be unstoppable super soldiers to stop the necrons. But why worry abtou the lore when there is head cannon and video game references around


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 17:19:18


    Post by: Castozor


    Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 17:42:56


    Post by: Xenomancers


     Castozor wrote:
    Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.

    Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.

    Sisters too I suppose are also going to be boned.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 17:48:32


    Post by: Keramory


     evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
    I scratch my head at the supposed fluff justifications for marines easily taking on orcs. Most works seem to feature orks being significantly stronger and tougher than the comparable level of marines. Belial is lucky to escape Ghaz at Kadillus. Rynn’s World feature the crimson fist chapter master struggling against the warboss that’s pummeling his chapter. I mean there’s even orks that are more or at least as powerful as the emperor in his prime. T5 orks aren’t out of line with the background.

    The problem only lays with the wounding chart where the S3 lasgun and the S4 bolter are now just as effective. Move off the D6 and we could get that granularity. And really it’s not like marines are hurting for tools to kill T5 orks. Assault cannons still exist for loyalists. Reaper chain cannons* and berserkers still exist for chaos.

    * pending the new codex making havocs take 1 reaper, heavy bolter, or autocannon, 1 heavy bolter or autocannon, and 2 lascannons or missile launchers.


    To be fair, those are the biggest baddest orks or the group. An ork that can take on big E, a Primarch, or even a named space marine in 1on1 is a rarity. From what I recall usually a single marine can mow down plenty of orks boyz, but it's the numbers that get them at the end.

    I don't have any lore myself to quote or be 100% certain, but I was always under the impression a naked marine was about just as tough as a regular ork boy. Thats why both matching at t4 made sense to me. Yeah an ork boy can take a hole to the gut and shrug it off, but half the time in the lore so can a marine it always seems.

    As for the lasgun and bolter argument, bolters slowly becoming -1ap across the field and being 1 more strength matches the lore pretty well. If a lasgun somehow even manages to wound an ork, they can survive it even without armor. If a bolt gun manages to wound an ork, they dead because its a glorified giant gernade launcher


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 17:52:13


    Post by: Galas


    A naked marine is not as tought as a ork boy. The ork boy can survive much more grievous wounds. And even if people complained about 2 wound marines, nobody compared them to boyz as they are comparing boyz now to marines.

    Also a catachan is just a strong as an ork boy or a marine. Lets accept a range of 2-8 T cannot represent all the units in a lore accurate manner. Concessions must be made.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 17:52:49


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     Xenomancers wrote:
     Castozor wrote:
    Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.

    Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.

    Sisters too I suppose are also going to be boned.

    Immortals also have a 3+ save and get back up after you knock them down, and Plague Marines have a 3+ and reduce all damage by 1. Orks don't have anything like that. Every successful wound from a bolt rifle will kill an Ork Boy. They'll still die plenty easy.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 17:54:54


    Post by: Xenomancers


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     Castozor wrote:
    Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.

    Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.

    Sisters too I suppose are also going to be boned.

    Immortals also have a 3+ save and get back up after you knock them down, and Plague Marines have a 3+ and reduce all damage by 1. Orks don't have anything like that. Every successful wound from a bolt rifle will kill an Ork Boy. They'll still die plenty easy.

    We don't even know what orks free armywide rule is going to be...


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 18:01:08


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     Xenomancers wrote:
    Spoiler:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     Castozor wrote:
    Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.

    Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.

    Sisters too I suppose are also going to be boned.

    Immortals also have a 3+ save and get back up after you knock them down, and Plague Marines have a 3+ and reduce all damage by 1. Orks don't have anything like that. Every successful wound from a bolt rifle will kill an Ork Boy. They'll still die plenty easy.

    We don't even know what orks free armywide rule is going to be...

    No, we don't. So let's wait until we do before freaking out about it. I doubt it'll be any better than FREE AP ALL THE TIME!


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 18:15:19


    Post by: Castozor


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     Castozor wrote:
    Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.

    Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.

    Sisters too I suppose are also going to be boned.

    Immortals also have a 3+ save and get back up after you knock them down, and Plague Marines have a 3+ and reduce all damage by 1. Orks don't have anything like that. Every successful wound from a bolt rifle will kill an Ork Boy. They'll still die plenty easy.

    All these units also have (pending changes) far better shooting output than a squad of boyz. I also doubt this was specifically made to bone Marines, CSM of all flavors also favour S4 for anti-horde, Tyranids sometimes do depending on build, Tau and their S5 shooting is also affected and I'm sure there is stuff I'm forgetting.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 18:17:28


    Post by: Galas


    I would like for shoota boyz to be make viable.

    Maybe I'm in the minority but I always liked shoota boyz more. For me what sets orks apart in 40k compared with fantasy is the DAKKADAKKADAKKA not this meele obsesion.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 18:22:39


    Post by: G00fySmiley


    Keramory wrote:
     evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
    I scratch my head at the supposed fluff justifications for marines easily taking on orcs. Most works seem to feature orks being significantly stronger and tougher than the comparable level of marines. Belial is lucky to escape Ghaz at Kadillus. Rynn’s World feature the crimson fist chapter master struggling against the warboss that’s pummeling his chapter. I mean there’s even orks that are more or at least as powerful as the emperor in his prime. T5 orks aren’t out of line with the background.

    The problem only lays with the wounding chart where the S3 lasgun and the S4 bolter are now just as effective. Move off the D6 and we could get that granularity. And really it’s not like marines are hurting for tools to kill T5 orks. Assault cannons still exist for loyalists. Reaper chain cannons* and berserkers still exist for chaos.

    * pending the new codex making havocs take 1 reaper, heavy bolter, or autocannon, 1 heavy bolter or autocannon, and 2 lascannons or missile launchers.


    To be fair, those are the biggest baddest orks or the group. An ork that can take on big E, a Primarch, or even a named space marine in 1on1 is a rarity. From what I recall usually a single marine can mow down plenty of orks boyz, but it's the numbers that get them at the end.

    I don't have any lore myself to quote or be 100% certain, but I was always under the impression a naked marine was about just as tough as a regular ork boy. Thats why both matching at t4 made sense to me. Yeah an ork boy can take a hole to the gut and shrug it off, but half the time in the lore so can a marine it always seems.

    As for the lasgun and bolter argument, bolters slowly becoming -1ap across the field and being 1 more strength matches the lore pretty well. If a lasgun somehow even manages to wound an ork, they can survive it even without armor. If a bolt gun manages to wound an ork, they dead because its a glorified giant gernade launcher


    So i am going to be generous here by not calling this your own head cannon on what an ork should be, that or just having played the space marine video game,where orks are not portrayed even close to most books. In the books, codexes etc often times an ork can be shot by a bolt and unless it hits them in the head the ork keeps coming. even if the ork is hit in the head if there is a nearby painboy and there is an ork nearby who has say been hit by 3-4 rounds and is unable to use their legs the painboy might cut the head off the body of the ruined ork body, sew it on to the body that has only lost its head, 1+1 = you now have 1 functional ork warrior ready to charge. The amount of punishment it takes to put down an ork is crazy which is why it is often done from ordinance cause a pile of green goo can't be put back together. There are several instances beyond just Uulenor and the beast where space marines are struggling against orks as they present a serious threat wherever they show up. Now there are a few blakc library writers who basically write space marine glory books where you will see things like a particularly skilled marine hero fighting through a whole squad of nobz or through a horde of ork boyz single handedly... but these instances are rare and meant to show just how special this particular marine is.

    One piece that may also help is actually understanding that an Ork boy is going to be vastly different based on the waaagh and where they are. A wildboy in a small feudal world where only a few spores were left is really not going to much of a threat to a marine and even a guardsman might have even odds to take them on. A ork boy in a decent sized society limited to a planet or solar system is going to be bigger and stronger but probably in the threat to a marine but still odds highly in favor of the marine even if outnumbered by a few range. guardsman at this point is kind of hosed in one to one though. most the orks though on the tabletop are interstellar orks likely as part of a waaagh so the would be you bigger scarier orks where a space marine likely has the training, discipline and equipment to deal with an ork but we are no longer in the being abel to take on multiple orks territory. heck a interstellar boy might even be bigger than the nobz or a boss in a smaller waagh or tribe. orks are not liek humans where they reach a size and just stop the more they fight the stronger they get, the bigger the waaagh the bigger they get etc.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 19:27:03


    Post by: Xenomancers


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    Spoiler:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     Castozor wrote:
    Bolters and lasguns also perform equally well against Plague Marines and Necron Immortals as well as a bunch of other stuff I'm forgetting. I'm not seeing how T5 Orkz is suddenly the straw that broke the camels back immersion wise.

    Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.

    Sisters too I suppose are also going to be boned.

    Immortals also have a 3+ save and get back up after you knock them down, and Plague Marines have a 3+ and reduce all damage by 1. Orks don't have anything like that. Every successful wound from a bolt rifle will kill an Ork Boy. They'll still die plenty easy.

    We don't even know what orks free armywide rule is going to be...

    No, we don't. So let's wait until we do before freaking out about it. I doubt it'll be any better than FREE AP ALL THE TIME!

    Except it's not all the time. It is conditional. Heavy weapons only get it turn 1. Rapid fire and assault turn 2/3. Melee turn 4.

    Other than that...A stratagem that puts you into the doctrin is still quite inferior to a stratagem that deals 6 mortal wounds or gives you 45 autowounds. Marines are actually quite bad in comparison to every reworked army and also some 8th eddition armies too. Sucks for CSM - I feel you. But the bonus AP is also necessary...when custodians are walking around with 1+ saves and is often useless because so many armies just have invune saves for the cost of FREE.

    Dakka will never get this because it is an anti marine environment. Marines needed doctrines to have a chance. They needed bonus attacks. Because they don't have the things that really matter...Invune saves / double moves / teleports/ ect.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/17 19:55:14


    Post by: SemperMortis


     Xenomancers wrote:

    The lasgun is supposed to be the bottom of the barrel - A bolter is a powerful weapon more than capable of penetrating Astartes - an ork without armor is no contest for it.

    The issue has always been - the bolter being unperforming on the table for nearly the whole history of the game. Bolters are tecnically worse against orks than they've ever been...giving a 6+ save to an ork that used to get nothing...thats not good enough...now bolters have to wound a chaff infantry on 5's? GTFO.

    It is completely backwards and everyone knows it. Is everything ork getting +1 T also? Bikes? Buggies?


    "bolters are technically worse against orks than they've ever been". Well lets see. 4th edition, 10 Marines at 24' got 10 shots, 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds and likely 3.3 dead boyz for a total of 18pts of dead boyz.

    Assuming orkz get no price increase and T5: 10 Marines at 24' get 20 shots, 13.3 hits 4.43 wounds and 3.69 dead Boyz for between 24-32pts of dead Boyz.

    So when you say they are worse off....you mean, in your opinion which is completely devoid of fact, reason or common sense?

     Xenomancers wrote:

    Almost half the weapons in the game have d2+ almost half have ap-1 or 2.

    A primaris marine costs more than 2x and ork boy too (2x exactly if they go to 10 points). Has a fraction of the offense per point.

    T5 ork boys - IMO is the dumbest stat change in the history of 40k. I've played for more than 20 years.


    I'm always amazed that people like you are so bold as to continuously contradict yourself and think nothing of it when called on it. You just said nobody list tailors against Marines and than you say half the weapons in the game are D2 and have AP-1 or 2. Pick an argument and stick with it, you can't have it both ways.

    Just to remind you of the breakdown. In 4th a Marine was 15pts an ork was 6pts. It took 9 shots from a bolter to kill 1 Marine, it took 3 to kill a Boy. So point for point, 18shots to kill 30pts of Marines and 15 to kill 30pts of Orkz.

    9th a Marine is 18pts and an ork is currently 8pts. It takes 18 shots from a bolter to kill 1 Marine and 3.6 to kill a Boy. Point for point it takes 72 shots to kill 72pts of Tac Marine it takes 32.4 to kill 72pts worth of Orkz.

    So since 4th a Space Marine has increased in durability compared to that Ork boy...significantly. Dmg wise the Marine has gained while the Ork boy has lost or stayed the same.

    And when Boyz go to T5 (assuming no points increase) it will take about 5.3 shots to kill an Ork boy which makes it 47...hell lets round up to 50. 50 shots to kill 72pts of Ork boyzStill significantly less durable in comparison to where they were in 4th compared to a Tac Marine.




    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     the_scotsman wrote:
    Semper I'm incredibly curious where you're getting "DE have had a 30% winrate overall since their codex."

    The places I generally go for competitive data have had DE as a very clear winrate outlier - 65%-75% depending on the week. Now, almost every major facet of their competitive lists did just get nerfed, and to my knowledge we have yet to see any post-nerf major events, just like we haven't seen any post-codex major events for Admech. So we don't know where the numbers are for drukhari without Dark Technomancers, without blender succubus, without +2CP and with +10pt raiders. It's not yet even close to clear whether that's enough of a nerf, but it is absolutely clear that a nerf was warranted, just like it was clear a nerf was warranted after the supplements first came out with marines 2.0.



    40k stats. They have faction breakdown and you can select months/opponents etc, its actually really good, the only downside is they don't update it often enough for my liking, atm I think they only have SOME of the recent events from June in their system.



    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 00:26:30


    Post by: ZebioLizard2


    So this entire thing is someone literally arguing for Movie Marines being the basis for every faction to be balanced against?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 02:06:07


    Post by: Eldenfirefly


    Actually, space marines already have a good unit that feels like movie marines that mows down T5 orcs. Its called heavy intercessors.

    Heavy intercessors come default with a heavy bolt rifle. This is a rapid fire1, str 5 AP 1 damage rifle that shoots 36 inches. Heavy intercessors can also switch all their heavy bolt rifles into a hellstorm bolt rifle that is a Str 5, AP0, assault 3 ranged 30 inch rifle.

    Also, heavy intercessors are CORE, T5 with 3W each. They are literally movie marines against orcs.

    So, GW has already come out with the perfect space marine unit that mows down T5 orcs. Just go out there and load up on heavy intercessors!


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 02:13:46


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     Galas wrote:
    Maybe I'm in the minority but I always liked shoota boyz more. For me what sets orks apart in 40k compared with fantasy is the DAKKADAKKADAKKA not this meele obsesion.
    You're not alone. Ork shooting, to me at least, is one of the more entertaining aspects of 40k Orks. I love their wild and wacky guns.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 05:37:59


    Post by: a_typical_hero


    Eldenfirefly wrote:
    Actually, space marines already have a good unit that feels like movie marines that mows down T5 orcs. Its called heavy intercessors.

    Heavy intercessors come default with a heavy bolt rifle. This is a rapid fire1, str 5 AP 1 damage rifle that shoots 36 inches. Heavy intercessors can also switch all their heavy bolt rifles into a hellstorm bolt rifle that is a Str 5, AP0, assault 3 ranged 30 inch rifle.

    Also, heavy intercessors are CORE, T5 with 3W each. They are literally movie marines against orcs.

    So, GW has already come out with the perfect space marine unit that mows down T5 orcs. Just go out there and load up on heavy intercessors!

    Just a quick reminder that Movie Marines back then were "balanced" to play a single unit of Tactical Marines with Sarge and optionally a Rhino or Razorback against a complete 1500p army.
    Rules can be found here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/2011/6/moviemarines-01194024.pdf

    I get that you likely meant it in a slightly joking way, but to say "They are literally movie marines against orcs." is wrong and hyperbolic.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 07:17:38


    Post by: Blackie


     Xenomancers wrote:


    A primaris marine costs more than 2x and ork boy too (2x exactly if they go to 10 points). Has a fraction of the offense per point.


    T5 ork boys - IMO is the dumbest stat change in the history of 40k. I've played for more than 20 years.


    The dumbest stat change in the history of 40k was giving 2W to marines.

    And terminators with 3W doesn't make any sense at all, when historically they've always been 1W. Did they eat Popeye's spinach by chance?

    Orks getting +1T is in line with the previous increase of +2ppm from their typical points cost without gaining any bonus. Now they can justify that jump from 6ppm to 8ppm.

    A primaris marine has much more offensive capacity than an ork boy, there's also shooting to consider.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 07:33:13


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


    Was giving Marines an extra wound really that bad? And should Terminators stay at 1 wound because of "tradition"?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 07:33:32


    Post by: Jidmah


     Xenomancers wrote:
    Yeah...don't expect a bolt gun to do a lot against a plauge marine and an immortal is paying 17 points to have T5 a plauge marine is 21...this ork is going to be paying significantly less than that not to mention...a lot less than the primaris marine as well...you might notice...this change is specifically targeting space marines - the army of str 4 spam. It doesn't really affect anyone else much.


    But that's not a problem, right? If marines become unplayable, you can just go and play one of your other two armies.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     ZebioLizard2 wrote:
    So this entire thing is someone literally arguing for Movie Marines being the basis for every faction to be balanced against?

    Yes, and to add to the hilarity of it, that person is infamous for being wrong about almost everything related to orks. He had long threads about how kanz, squig buggies, post-nerf SAG and stompas are too strong and need to be nerfed.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Was giving Marines an extra wound really that bad? And should Terminators stay at 1 wound because of "tradition"?


    While I hate playing against those durable zoggers, it just feels right how they are now. Weapons and their platforms have gotten better and better since I started in 5th, it was about time that defensive profiles catch up.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 08:20:29


    Post by: Blackie


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Was giving Marines an extra wound really that bad? And should Terminators stay at 1 wound because of "tradition"?


    Maybe, as I wish all infantries were 1W, with very few exceptions with 2W and I certainly can accept termies being one of the few infantries with 2W. But definitely going from 1 to 3W was extra dumb. So was releasing an entire line of dudes with T5 and 3W.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 08:43:13


    Post by: TheCrazyCryptek


    Forgive me for being so late to the party here, but is this a rumor that Orks will be T5? Or are they T5 right now and I just didn't know it?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 08:47:50


    Post by: Blackie


     TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
    Forgive me for being so late to the party here, but is this a rumor that Orks will be T5? Or are they T5 right now and I just didn't know it?


    Official statements released from GW. ALL ork infantries will get +1T, including gretchins. It doesn't affect vehicles of course but bikers are expected to get their +1T as well, becoming T6 models. That's a preview from the upcoming codex, and until it gets released the 8th codex rules will be in play so orks are still T4 for now.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 09:14:09


    Post by: Spoletta


    This is just part of GWs ongoing process of using the new SvT table and Wound/damage system to differentiate more between defensive profiles, and I approve of it.

    Too bad that while GW is doing a decent work on infantry and bikers, she kind of forgot the existence of vehicles and monsters...


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 09:31:54


    Post by: Jidmah


    Spoletta wrote:
    This is just part of GWs ongoing process of using the new SvT table and Wound/damage system to differentiate more between defensive profiles, and I approve of it.

    Too bad that while GW is doing a decent work on infantry and bikers, she kind of forgot the existence of vehicles and monsters...


    Gotta leave something for 10th :p


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 11:48:42


    Post by: G00fySmiley


     Jidmah wrote:
    Spoletta wrote:
    This is just part of GWs ongoing process of using the new SvT table and Wound/damage system to differentiate more between defensive profiles, and I approve of it.

    Too bad that while GW is doing a decent work on infantry and bikers, she kind of forgot the existence of vehicles and monsters...


    Gotta leave something for 10th :p


    i am hoping tyranid codex makes em tougher this edition, I just started 3d printing this crazy cool looking iron hive tyranid army its kind of steam punk/ part bio part tech looking tyranids
    https://www.cgtrader.com/3d-print-models/miniatures/sci-fi/iron-hive-warriors-set-1

    either way i am going to make them and paint them but it would be cool if they were at least middle of the road to play some casual games


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 15:38:57


    Post by: leerm02



    You know, on the subject (somewhat), do standard ork boyz really need that 6+ armor save? I mean, if we are saving a lot of needless rolling with adding t5 instead of say a FNP rule... do we also still need that 6+ save?

    I would be curious of someone with better mathhammer skills could see if that would make a huge difference regarding things like bolters/lasguns ect...


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 15:56:07


    Post by: fraser1191


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Was giving Marines an extra wound really that bad? And should Terminators stay at 1 wound because of "tradition"?


    Yes! No change, nothing ever needs to change! No FAQs! No new codexes! No change!

    I'm being facetious by the way


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 16:03:24


    Post by: Cybtroll


    I don't like very much the approach with Toughness roll first and the save after (the inverse will make more sense).

    Within this framework, T5 make sense for Orks. Also W3 would have made sense lore-wise.
    All in all is a good change: it's unfoetuy they haven't implemented it at 9th release, when it would have made more sense.

    (And, just for clarity: I despise the fact that a bigger armour for SM mean T5: a better save should have been the proper implementation).


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 16:05:36


    Post by: warhead01


    leerm02 wrote:

    You know, on the subject (somewhat), do standard ork boyz really need that 6+ armor save? I mean, if we are saving a lot of needless rolling with adding t5 instead of say a FNP rule... do we also still need that 6+ save?

    I would be curious of someone with better mathhammer skills could see if that would make a huge difference regarding things like bolters/lasguns ect...


    I find that idea horrifying. But if it comes with a drastic drop in points.. maybe? The drop in point would have to be for grots as well, so we could make grot shields a unit rule instead of a stratagem too.
    So many models, so little time.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 16:57:42


    Post by: vipoid


    I do have some concerns about the degree to which 'basic' weapons seem to be increasingly lacking in any meaningful tactical role.

    And yes, I'm aware that some weapons are getting buffs as books move into 9th but that just means that the weapons which *aren't* getting buffs end up falling even further behind.

    To give an example of what I mean, I would think one of the most appropriate anti-Ork weapons would be the humble flamer. However, it's now wounding even basic Ork boys on 5s. That... doesn't feel right.

    To be clear, I don't think T5 Orks are going to break the game or anything. I just find myself wondering whether we're heading in the right direction.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 17:06:18


    Post by: Galas


    I mean theres a good amount of chaff units flamers kill just right (And Sororitas flamers kill orks fine) like all human based chaff units, tyranids hordes, etc...

    But TBH flamers haven't been that good of a weapon since 8th. A stormbolter is always outright better. 2 shots at 24" and 4 at 12" are always better than 1d6 autohitting shots at 8" (now 12")


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 17:12:20


    Post by: The Red Hobbit


    That's a great point, while new weapons like the Heavy Intercessor Bolter (S5) or the Ministorum Flamer (S5) can deal with this problem it leaves the classic variants far behind. When you think of a Guardsmen squad on the front lines you'd think the flamer an effective weapon but with Wounding Orks on 5s it's become rather meager.

    Keeping all the good weapons in new kits or resurgent factions sure is a great way to keep business flowing. Tough break for the Guardsmen who has to hold the line.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 18:18:57


    Post by: Jidmah


    leerm02 wrote:

    You know, on the subject (somewhat), do standard ork boyz really need that 6+ armor save? I mean, if we are saving a lot of needless rolling with adding t5 instead of say a FNP rule... do we also still need that 6+ save?

    I would be curious of someone with better mathhammer skills could see if that would make a huge difference regarding things like bolters/lasguns ect...


    IMO? Not really, I rarely if ever get to roll for it anyways. It feels like everyone has AP-1 anyways and it doesn't save that many boyz to begin with.

    On the flip side, you don't have same issues against multi-dmg weapons as FNP does and orks often have KFF. Plus, it's not like you are busy during your opponent's turn besides packing up casualties, so it's not a huge gain in time.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     The Red Hobbit wrote:
    That's a great point, while new weapons like the Heavy Intercessor Bolter (S5) or the Ministorum Flamer (S5) can deal with this problem it leaves the classic variants far behind. When you think of a Guardsmen squad on the front lines you'd think the flamer an effective weapon but with Wounding Orks on 5s it's become rather meager.


    It think that the concept of regular flamers simply doesn't work in 8th/9th. It's not actually good at killing anything, so what's the point of the weapon? There needs to be a rework for this kind of weapon, similar to what they did with blast, it actually starts being good against chaff.

    If it manages to kill T4 orks well, it won't suddenly fall apart against T5.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 18:37:41


    Post by: G00fySmiley


    on flamers... yea they kind of are bad but in past editions it sucked to pick up boyz by the handful because a 5 point flamer just deleted 80 points of boyz in a turn.

    currently a flamer is often 5 points. D6 shots so average 3.5. currently wounds on a 4 so 1.75 wounds, so about 1.5 dead orks.

    with T5 orks that is 1.15 wounds before save so basically 1 after save. still a 5 point weapon deleting a 8-12 point model (i think those are likely ranges with 10 being most likely)

    as for the idea of the ork 6+ save being gone i would not be too keen on it, saving 16.6% of ap0 weapons is still nice against some armies, but if it came to 9 points without an armor save vs 10 points with then i don't need to 6+ also would make things faster as stated above, one less roll. .


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 19:12:49


    Post by: The Red Hobbit


     Jidmah wrote:

    It think that the concept of regular flamers simply doesn't work in 8th/9th. It's not actually good at killing anything, so what's the point of the weapon? There needs to be a rework for this kind of weapon, similar to what they did with blast, it actually starts being good against chaff.


    Agreed, Flamers are mediocre at most things, but chaff infantry was one area where they excelled, plus Overwatch. I found the Flamer to be a good point though since its an iconic weapon, and old time favorite, and it dovetails into Strength Vs Toughness on classic units and weapons. When Marines went from 1W to 2W discussions became "which of these existing weapons should be D2 now?". With Orks moving to T5 many folks will look at the weapon list and think "which of these existing weapons should be S5 now?"

    In GW's case it's a bit easier, "Which of these new kits should be S5?"


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 19:20:46


    Post by: DaRealJDB


    Y'all can see the forest but for the trees. This is power creep, plain and simple.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 20:01:01


    Post by: Galas


     The Red Hobbit wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:

    It think that the concept of regular flamers simply doesn't work in 8th/9th. It's not actually good at killing anything, so what's the point of the weapon? There needs to be a rework for this kind of weapon, similar to what they did with blast, it actually starts being good against chaff.


    Agreed, Flamers are mediocre at most things, but chaff infantry was one area where they excelled, plus Overwatch. I found the Flamer to be a good point though since its an iconic weapon, and old time favorite, and it dovetails into Strength Vs Toughness on classic units and weapons. When Marines went from 1W to 2W discussions became "which of these existing weapons should be D2 now?". With Orks moving to T5 many folks will look at the weapon list and think "which of these existing weapons should be S5 now?"

    In GW's case it's a bit easier, "Which of these new kits should be S5?"


    For starters flamers should all ignore light cover. And probably, just like in Cities of Death for 8th, both grenades and flamers should get full auto hits agaisnt units full in cover. With those two things they have actually a tactical place in the game more similar to how they were actually used in real life.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 20:51:33


    Post by: The Red Hobbit


    Those sound like fun rules that match the intent of the weapon's purpose. I'll have to give those a try next time I'm running an army with flamers in it.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 22:50:11


    Post by: alextroy


    DaRealJDB wrote:Y'all can see the forest but for the trees. This is power creep, plain and simple.
    Is it power creep when all the new codexes are being set a what appears to be a balanced higher defense level?



    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/18 23:10:02


    Post by: AnomanderRake


     alextroy wrote:
    DaRealJDB wrote:Y'all can see the forest but for the trees. This is power creep, plain and simple.
    Is it power creep when all the new codexes are being set a what appears to be a balanced higher defense level?



    Pretty much. All the new Codexes are being set to a new higher defense level now, but once the next SM book 2 or 7e Craftworlds or 5e Grey Knights comes along and pushes beyond the line again they'll all be obsolete and GW will have to scramble to buff everyone else to keep up again. The Codex release model (where you have to update everything else before you can go back and fix the thing you broke) makes power creep pretty inevitable and unfixable.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 00:32:03


    Post by: Strg Alt


    Orks with T5 are an abomination. Glad I will never have to deal with those rules anymore.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 01:41:26


    Post by: SlaveToDorkness


     alextroy wrote:
    DaRealJDB wrote:Y'all can see the forest but for the trees. This is power creep, plain and simple.
    Is it power creep when all the new codexes are being set a what appears to be a balanced higher defense level?



    ::laughs in 30 years of GW experience::


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 02:46:13


    Post by: Arbiter_Shade


    I can not understand how people can honestly think that T5 Boyz is somehow going to break the game. It is a 16% reduction in wounds against S4, S5 and S8 weapons. Yes, I understand that is a LOT of weapons in the game but honestly is killing one less ork out of every three? So a 10 man marine squad kills roughly 4-5 rather than 7 orks? Is that really something that is going to break the game and ruin all of ours games?

    Right now hordes are utterly terrible in 9th until you hit 120+ models at which case they are still awful it is just a fact that most opponents wont be able to kill them all. T5 boyz is NOT going to break the game, hell Nobz point for point currently are probably better than 8 point T5 boyz and are you afraid of Nobz? Nobz right now have a 4+ with 2 wounds for the points of two boyz. That 4+ save means they actually might get to make an armor save once in awhile which is in itself exponentially better than boyz.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 06:27:54


    Post by: flamingkillamajig


    Personally I think feel no pain could've also worked but I'm the lucky person that plays dark eldar (have since 7th which was unlucky then) and poisoned weaponry and shredders don't tend to care about t5. Our melee might care but if you're fighting an ork in melee then you're likely fighting them wrong. Ofc the game has changed a lot so I guess we'll see.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 07:03:01


    Post by: Karol


     alextroy wrote:
    DaRealJDB wrote:Y'all can see the forest but for the trees. This is power creep, plain and simple.
    Is it power creep when all the new codexes are being set a what appears to be a balanced higher defense level?


    Go tell that to Deathwatch players, whose armies got weaker comparing to what they had in 8th.


    So a 10 man marine squad kills roughly 4-5 rather than 7 orks?

    I don't think that many marines players, aside for GK, actually run 10 man squads. So it like saying it is all okey, if the marine player uses 9 hvy bolter attack bikes and 3 units of devastators with heavy bolters. Any buff to cheap units is always substential, or at least that is what 8th tought me , with how cultists were out classing marines for chaos.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 08:05:56


    Post by: Eldarsif


    Arbiter_Shade wrote:
    I can not understand how people can honestly think that T5 Boyz is somehow going to break the game. It is a 16% reduction in wounds against S4, S5 and S8 weapons. Yes, I understand that is a LOT of weapons in the game but honestly is killing one less ork out of every three? So a 10 man marine squad kills roughly 4-5 rather than 7 orks? Is that really something that is going to break the game and ruin all of ours games?


    People tend to put in a lot of emotions into keeping the past even if that past is outdated. The thing is, if T5 is an abomination/worst thing to ever happen then literally everything in 8th and 9th is an abomination. The proliferation of extra AP, the extra wound on marines, and so on. Some of it feels like Marine Entitlement in wanting their movie marines and the ability to mow everyone down, but even then I think a lot of people with un-updated armies do not realize that their armies will most likely see changes to extra AP; Toughness, Saves, and whatnot. I mean, Wyches can get to Str 5, have an extra AP and gazillion attacks in the current edition and will have little problem taking down a large group of orks even with T5.

    In the end I think people just need to stop thinking of certain factions as "NPC Factions" and instead of factions that people play and enjoy and are there not solely for the benefits of the "Hero faction" players.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 08:38:14


    Post by: Blackie


     vipoid wrote:
    I just find myself wondering whether we're heading in the right direction.


    Me too. Orks getting T5 is a consequence of units getting bonus to AP, damage and standard weapons with lots of shots. A shooting phase in 3rd or 5th involved half or a third of the current dice that we need. That's why boyz with T5 will die as fast as older T4 boyz. Marines with 2W would have broken the game in earlier edition, while termies with 3W would have been flat out unkillable. A lower volume of dice rolled is the main thing I miss from older editions, other than the chance of customizing the characters.

    A twin linked assault cannon had 4 shots with re-rolls 10 years ago and penalties for movement, now it's 12 shots with a bonus on the AP in turn 1 and now penalty ever. A unit like aggressors with their 18 (?) shots each against an horde, plus power fists and a tough profile, would have been considered outrageous 10 years ago, now SM players consider them unplayable because they think they need twice the shots to be worthy. Yes, this is definitely the wrong direction but the ship has already sailed.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 10:08:52


    Post by: Spoletta


    I wouldn't say that it is the wrong direction.
    It is a different one.

    Previously the game tried to squeeze everything within the same defensive profiles, and as we all know, it mostly failed.

    MEQs were mostly unplayable, same for terminators. No matter how high the armor, as long as all infantries had a single wound, killing them by a thousand cuts was too easy.

    This is why now we have a damage/wound system. It helps differentiate between infantry, elite infantry, heavy infantry, walker, vehicle.

    IMO, it is a step in the right direction, but I respect other opinions.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 10:29:33


    Post by: Blackie


    Spoletta wrote:
    I wouldn't say that it is the wrong direction.
    It is a different one.

    Previously the game tried to squeeze everything within the same defensive profiles, and as we all know, it mostly failed.

    MEQs were mostly unplayable, same for terminators. No matter how high the armor, as long as all infantries had a single wound, killing them by a thousand cuts was too easy.

    This is why now we have a damage/wound system. It helps differentiate between infantry, elite infantry, heavy infantry, walker, vehicle.

    IMO, it is a step in the right direction, but I respect other opinions.


    Yes, it's definitely a different one and the concepts of right and wrong are entirely subjective.

    What I don't like is the massive dice rolling. Single dudes with 10+ shots and vehicles with 20+ shots, easy access to re-rolls and double tap abilities. If dice rolling was dramatically reduced, lethality would also be reduced and the game would be better IMHO, that's what I mean. But overall I think the current state of 40k is actually great, don't get me wrong.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 11:28:48


    Post by: Galas


    You could remove all bonus to wound and to hit and all rerolls in the game and the game would become much better. Just with that little change.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 11:39:48


    Post by: vipoid


    Arbiter_Shade wrote:
    I can not understand how people can honestly think that T5 Boyz is somehow going to break the game.


    I don't think anyone is actually arguing that.

    The concerns people are raising is that raising Orks to T5 means that, from a lore perspective, a lot of things start to fall out of alignment.

    Whether or not it ends up being balanced, bolters wounding Orks on 5s feels wrong. Flamers wounding Orks on 5s feels wrong.

    I suppose you could start raising the strength of weapons to compensate but then pretty soon we'll end up right back where we started and people will start saying that Orks need to be T6 or something.

    And just to be clear, I also didn't like DE getting better armour saves because it's the opposite of what their defence should be. I was also opposed to Marines getting +1W across the board, albeit more from a game perspective. Because however much Marine players want them to be 'elite', the sheer volume of Marine armies and Marine players means that they are de facto the standard troops in the game. So far from making Marines feel more elite, the game just ended up making T4 W2 the basic standard for the game's infantry and so the standard of what even basic weapons need to be able to deal with (hence why so many weapons ended up getting extra damage or such to compensate).

    I am also highly doubtful that the game will ever reached the promised state where everything is balanced to everything else. I think all we'll end up doing is leapfrogging defence and offence, with many factions, units and/or weapons inevitably being left behind.

    And just to reiterate, this is not solely because of Orks moving to T5. If anything, I (and perhaps many others) just see that as being a symptom of a wider issue.


     Blackie wrote:

    Me too. Orks getting T5 is a consequence of units getting bonus to AP, damage and standard weapons with lots of shots. A shooting phase in 3rd or 5th involved half or a third of the current dice that we need. That's why boyz with T5 will die as fast as older T4 boyz. Marines with 2W would have broken the game in earlier edition, while termies with 3W would have been flat out unkillable. A lower volume of dice rolled is the main thing I miss from older editions, other than the chance of customizing the characters.

    A twin linked assault cannon had 4 shots with re-rolls 10 years ago and penalties for movement, now it's 12 shots with a bonus on the AP in turn 1 and now penalty ever. A unit like aggressors with their 18 (?) shots each against an horde, plus power fists and a tough profile, would have been considered outrageous 10 years ago, now SM players consider them unplayable because they think they need twice the shots to be worthy. Yes, this is definitely the wrong direction but the ship has already sailed.


    Yeah, I think it's one of those situations where it's a lot harder to go backwards than forwards.


     Galas wrote:
    You could remove all bonus to wound and to hit and all rerolls in the game and the game would become much better. Just with that little change.


    I've long been a proponent of removing most or all auras from the game. IMO HQs should be tied to Command Points and stratagems, not to random aura bonuses.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 12:10:49


    Post by: SemperMortis


    Karol wrote:

    I don't think that many marines players, aside for GK, actually run 10 man squads. So it like saying it is all okey, if the marine player uses 9 hvy bolter attack bikes and 3 units of devastators with heavy bolters. Any buff to cheap units is always substential, or at least that is what 8th tought me , with how cultists were out classing marines for chaos.


    Just for fun, 9 attack bikes and 3 dev squads is 63 heavy bolter shots, 42 hits, 21 wounds against orkz and 21 dead Orkz because no armor save. Against Space Marines thats 42 hits, 28 wounds, and 14 failed saves for 14 dead Marines because D2.

    On the flipside of that, if you instead of going to heavy weapons just went with Bolters, for about the same price as 9 attack bikes and 3 dev squads you took 18 aggressors you would end up with 216 S4 shots for 144 hits, 48 wounds and 40 dead Orkz. Against those pesky 2W Marines its 144 hits 96 wounds and 32 dmg for 16 dead Marines. (Marines would be even less assuming they didn't max squad size to 10 )

    And that right there is the problem. Instead of going towards a better solution on how to deal with ork boyz your brain immediately went towards a gun that is better at killing ork boyz than you are currently using, but that is still better at killing Marines. The solution to killing ork boyz doesn't require AP or D2, but you are paying for both in a heavy bolter than you basically either don't need (D2)or does very little (-1AP)


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 13:36:36


    Post by: Tygre


    I wonder if marines should have been Toughness 5 and orks 2 Wounds. If that would have made more sense.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 13:59:54


    Post by: Jidmah


    Tygre wrote:
    I wonder if marines should have been Toughness 5 and orks 2 Wounds. If that would have made more sense.


    Not really. The fluff is full of instances where a single well-aimed lasgun shot fells an ork.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 15:28:45


    Post by: The Red Hobbit


    Agreed T5 1W Orks makes more sense than T4 2W Orks. Fluff wise both T5 and FNP can fill the role of them ignoring pain and the damage from small arms fire while charging through it.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 16:04:16


    Post by: Pancakey


    Dont worry. 10th ed will fix everything.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 17:03:11


    Post by: Spoletta


    I hope that 10th does not come at all.
    I really don't feel the need for a new edition, the game is working very well.

    Too bad that we will still have the typical cycle of RandomNarrativeCampaignWhichBreaksEverything followed by a new edition.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/19 18:38:43


    Post by: Snake Tortoise


    I like the idea of basic infantry getting buffed against vehicles, monsters and powerful characters. It's such an investment in time and money to paint big infantry units and feels bad when they are little more than chaff. As a slow painter it's a bit of a kick in the teeth working for many hours on a unit of 12 termagants for them to cost as little as 48 points (prev editions). I hope gaunts get some kind of buff in line with T5 orks


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/20 01:49:41


    Post by: SemperMortis


    Tygre wrote:
    I wonder if marines should have been Toughness 5 and orks 2 Wounds. If that would have made more sense.


    I'll make a deal with Space Marine players, when we play against one another, i'll give you T5 and you give me 2W. You can also take the 33% increase in price since 4th edition and i'll settle for your 20% increase in price. So your T5 1W 3+ save Marines will be 20ppm and my T4 2W 6+ save orkz will be 7ppm.

    I mean, some of these guys seem to think T5 is way more valuable than a 2nd wound, double shots at max range, double attacks on first round of combat, AP on your standard weapons depending on turn etc.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 00:00:26


    Post by: Banzaimash


     Grimskul wrote:
    I wouldn't say it breaks the setting at all, because while bolters are definitely more effective than lasguns against Orks, there's been stories of Orks surviving bolter rounds before (that's actually how Ghazghkull's story starts since he goes in to see Mad Dok Grotsnik since part of his skull got blown off) and frankly the game does not equal the fluff. You have to abstract a lot of stuff when you're making a game and what can actually be translated over from the fluff into what works into it. You could easily just as much argue how a grot in CC can cause a wound on a Baneblade. Realistically, SM would be more outnumbered than they are now in a lot of fights in game. Guys like the Silent King would never take to the field in some small skirmish, etc.



    Orks being able to tank a bolter round 50% of the time I feel represents their superior toughness adequately, while still leaving a clear difference between lasguns and bolters. I would generally agree that fluff doesn't map onto rules perfectly, but I think it's one symptom of a wider problem of the game becoming a more abstracted system, more similar to MtG or LoL. Why this doesn't work is exemplified quite nicely by your example of grots being able to wound Baneblades - in a better system not focussed on tournament play and watering down the game to make it more accessible this would not, and indeed at one point did not, take place. As for big names on small boards, I always put that down to the fact that the game being played with those big names is just part of a wider battle that is raging all around, rather than a simple skirmish in its own right necessarily.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Matt Swain wrote:
    I have to say i'm against t5 orks as i think they just kind of break the setting, especially in relations to space marines.

    marines were made to fight things the imperial guard had problems with. The IG likely, especially early on, fought rebellious humans, so a S3 weapon against targets that are mostly T3 was ok. orks were T4 making them tough for IG to bring down, but Marines had S4 weapons that were effective vs orks.

    Now making orks t5 makes a standard bolter relatively ineffective against them. I assume the bolter was designed to be effective against some of the targets marines would be firing on mostly, and orks are definitely on that list. But if orks go t5 it means the bolter was relatively ineffective against them from the get go, which makes the bolter less of an impressive weapon. I'd assume a marines primary weapon would be made to have at least half a chance of wounding an ork, one of their main opponents.

    it just doesn't seem right to make a marines main weapon relatively ineffective against one of their main opponents. Linda breaks immersion a bit.

    Plus orks will have to be expensive in points now, and orks have traditionally been a green tide army that often wins thru sheer numbers. Boosting their costs to a fair level will really cut down on the size of ork armies. I'd prefer to howling green tide ork army, seems more orky to me.

    lastly it makes orks tougher than marines. I really just don't like it, not as a marine player and certainly not as a closet matt ward. Orks should be tougher than a human, yes, tougher, bigger, etc, But a marine is meant to be a human that's been genetically, biologically and surgically modified to be tougher than human too. Putting them on par with orks showed how hard it was to make a human tough as an ork. A human has 19 implants, years of surgery, a carapace, fused ribs, larraman cells, etc to be t4, an ork just pops out of the ground and is t5 now?

    i just think it kinda of ruins immersion. IG mostly fight heretics, rebels, etc, and being on par with them is ok. Marines fighter tougher stuff, they should be on par or better than what they fight because they were designed by the freakin' emperor to be at least on par with them.

    T5 orks just seem to break the setting. But hey, as a necron i can at least be on par with them since my troops can now take S5 weapons routinely...





    I agree with all this, and would like to add that this is a sign of a problem in many ways, in so far as it's seemingly been forgotten that the marine is the baseline profile that all other adjustments should be made against, and not seemingly the guardsman, as GW have elected apparently, hence 2W marines and now this.

    The old 1W T4 marine in fluff should be the baseline - while they are exeptional compared to humans, they are just about suitable for fighting the regenerating fungus beasts, 7ft lighting quick killer elves and two metre long gaunts that plague the setting. The battles fought on the tabletop in many ways always represent the extremes of combat in the 41st millenium in many ways, rather than what most of the fighting is, which would realistically be humans vs humans.

    By choosing the guardsman as the point of comparison, explicitly, or in this case judging by GW's promotional articles when they rolled out 2W marines or T5 orks, suddenly everything is powerful, and power creep is justified, which is what we have.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
    Remember, a model removed as a casualty doesn’t represent an actual kill.

    It can be a warrior too badly injured to carry on, or simply knocked out.

    T5 represents that for Orks, they may not be hard to inflict physical injury on, but bloody difficult to cripple. Clip most other beings with a Bolt round, and you’re doing enough damage to send them into shock. Orks, not so much.


    A 50/50 chance represents this more than enough don't you think? Certainly a bolter is much more likely to put down an ork than a lasgun, and this is not remotely reflected in this new rules change


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    scarletsquig wrote:
    If we're looking at immersion-breaking core troops, Eldar Guardians win the prize.

    In lore, they're talented centuries-old civilians of a dying race that can't afford to lose any more numbers.

    On the table, they're disposable chaff to be boltered to shreds by the dozen.

    At least Orks are depicted as being tough in the background, that's something that has been pretty consistent all along.

    Stat variety is good and something that previous editions just haven't done, largely sticking firmly to the stats laid down in 3rd (and sometimes 2nd) edition. One of the things that 9th is getting right so far.


    Honestly Eldar have been done dirty throughout. On the tabletop they're slightly faster humans (not really anymore since they got rid of Initiative and Fleet), when they should be not as tough as a marine but as skilled if not more so. Certainly Aspect warriors should perhaps be WS 2+ and BS 2+, and Exarchs should be mini characters in their own right, maybe even have them be buffing characters with a bit of combat specialism related to their Aspect in the Elites slot (I personally believe that with things like command squads being split up into their consituent parts GW should just introduce a new FOC section, called something like 'Specialists' - this could basically encompass everything from Commissars to Apothecaries and so on).


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Ulthanashville wrote:
    GW has mentioned that they want to tone down horde armies and speed up the game. I can see them cutting max boyz squad sizes by 5 or 10 models to balance out this change. This to me seems like a fair trade.

    There’s also an element of entitled whining from space marines players regarding this change. So you’ll have to actually suck something up for a change in the midst of your faction-wide upgrade to primaris. What proportion of ork armies have made the top of tournments in the last 5 years? 10? 15 even?

    Let the green guys have a moment in the sun for once.

    For Drukhari with their poisoned weapons and bugs with toxin sacs, the game remains effectively unchanged.

    Tau are still the kings of shooty and the orks have to reach them first. Hey, kroot may actually see use as bubble wrapping.

    Guard (and to an extent sisters) have all of the blast and flamer weapons they could want to counter this.

    Necrons, Eldar, Ad Mech etc have enough toys to weather the storm.

    It’s not such a game-breaking disaster.


    Don't see the need to call marine players entitled, especially when many like myself also collect orks, and other armies too. My main gripe with what you've said is the mentality that everything needs its 'time in the sun', which is a whole hearted endorsement of power creep, as this can only be achieved by constant buffs.Rather than resetting the game to a more reasonable level, we end up with this crescendo of FOTM and codex creep, which is barely tempered if at all by FAQs and minor nerfs. In two additions we'll be seeing 3W guardsmen or something foolish at this rate.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 02:04:26


    Post by: SemperMortis


     Banzaimash wrote:

    A 50/50 chance represents this more than enough don't you think? Certainly a bolter is much more likely to put down an ork than a lasgun, and this is not remotely reflected in this new rules change


    To put it bluntly? No. In 4th edition a Marine had 1 shot from his boltgun at 24' range and 2 shots at 12' but only if he stood still that turn. That Marine was 2.5x more expensive than the Ork boy and 300% more durable vs S4 incoming fire. In 9th edition taht Marine has 2 shots from 24 if he stands still and 2 shots from 12 no matter what, he also gets AP on his boltgun depending on what turn it is. That Marine is now only 2.25x More expensive than the Ork boy and is now more than 500% more durable to incoming S4 fire.

    So when you say an Ork boy being able to tank a bolter half the time should be enough, well no. Why? Because GW has decided that Space Marines needed ridiculous levels of buffs so that anyone who wants any hope of competing against them requires buffs to compensate. Now if your argument is purely from a fluff perspective than absolutely. But if we are going to play that game than my Ork boyz should be fielded in mobz of 100 and should cost 1ppm each. I have a sneaking suspicion that players don't actually want a fluffy representation of the battlefield otherwise the board would be flooded turn 1 LOL.

    As far as the Boltguns should be better at killing Orkz than Lasguns, sure. But let me ask you this, Shouldn't an Auto-cannon be better at killing T8 Vehicles than a Heavy Bolter? I can make a hundred similar comparisons in regards to weapons that aren't accurately represented on the battlefield. That has nothing to do with inherent imbalance and more to do with the Toughness/Weapon strength charts we use in the game right now.

     Banzaimash wrote:
    Don't see the need to call marine players entitled, especially when many like myself also collect orks, and other armies too. My main gripe with what you've said is the mentality that everything needs its 'time in the sun', which is a whole hearted endorsement of power creep, as this can only be achieved by constant buffs.Rather than resetting the game to a more reasonable level, we end up with this crescendo of FOTM and codex creep, which is barely tempered if at all by FAQs and minor nerfs. In two additions we'll be seeing 3W guardsmen or something foolish at this rate.


    Well the problem here Banzai is that there are a couple of Marine players on these boards who constantly complain every single time any other faction gets any kind of buffs...actually they complain if any color of Marine that isn't their color gets a buff. And when they have an obviously broken unit, they label any criticism of said unit as players just hating on Marines because they hate Marines or some such nonsense. I have literally witnessed players defending Pre-nerf Aggressors and the new Melta weapons as well as eradicators.

    In regards to "resetting the game"...I wouldn't wish that on anyone. If GW really wants to reset the power balance to a lower level than they need to pull out hte stops and do actual hardcore playtesting and only release the new rules as Index 10th edition. In 7th they tried to "tone down" the power creep by giving Orkz the absolute worst codex in 7th edition, it was so bad that by the end of 7th edition a host of Ork players had given up playing because they stood no chance. Jidmah, among many others did this if I am not mistaken.

    You can't start an edition and than randomly lower the power level for factions without lowering it for all. Hell, in 7th edition I had players offer me 200-400pt handicaps because they wanted to play their faction without purposefully taking the worst units they had .


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 11:57:57


    Post by: G00fySmiley


    I don't know where some of these numbers go but "a bolter should wound an ork 50% of the time" really depends on the book, but plenty of fluff examples would not have that be the case. I need to look up the story, but I was randomly listening to horus heresy audio books while playing (i think it was the roboute guilliman lord of ultrimar primarch mini series). They are on a planet with only a few habitable zones and orks have taken over, they go to take it back and whole squads are overun by orks and they note the only guarunteed way to put down an ork is to get a headshot and that even delimbed they are still a capable threat.

    Also of note its not like GW turned a bolter into S3, it is still taking out eldar, guard, other marines, lower demons, tau (includign crisis suits) sisters, tyranid gaunts/warriors (who should also be T5 but that is another discussion), and genesteeler cults. they are just making one more army where the baseline troops are tough enough to not be put down from both (other being custodes, and i get that custodes are the super special among super special created by the Emperor, but orks were made by the old ones so .. yea gonna put them as at least on par there)

    All that said this is a problem of the D6 system as noted before. i would love to see more varience but then we would need more things like individual dice for weapons or somethign like that. if it were a D10 system as an example and we could gradient it out sure we could have the conversation about a middle ground, but game balance wise currently ork boys get removed by the shovelful and the only way to make them work is goffs+ghaz+painbody+kff+wierdboy+skarboyz and if your units take that much buffing to be good there is probably a game mechanic or unit problem. Personally i hope again our units are less reliant on hero hammer and we can get some ork units actually functioning independently other than buggie spam. (i like my buggies don't get me wrong but it feel weird to take minimum squad buys now for troops since they are kind of useless)





    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 12:44:00


    Post by: Jidmah


     G00fySmiley wrote:
    I don't know where some of these numbers go but "a bolter should wound an ork 50% of the time" really depends on the book, but plenty of fluff examples would not have that be the case. I need to look up the story, but I was randomly listening to horus heresy audio books while playing (i think it was the roboute guilliman lord of ultrimar primarch mini series). They are on a planet with only a few habitable zones and orks have taken over, they go to take it back and whole squads are overun by orks and they note the only guarunteed way to put down an ork is to get a headshot and that even delimbed they are still a capable threat.


    Thrakka himself was a regular ork boy when he took a bolter round to the head and still managed to kill his opponent, walk off the battlefield and stumble into Grotznik's tent.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 12:47:28


    Post by: Galas


    TBH with the old to wound table agaisnt T5 orks lasguns would need a 6 and boltguns a 5+ so they would still be better from a fluff perspective.

    Why are changes in the to wound chart fine but not to statlines?

    Orks going to T5 is no different than inmortals going to T5 or 23025309 changes that 40k has seen to statlines across editions. There are no sacred cows. There should not be, thats horrible game design.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 12:53:59


    Post by: Jidmah


     G00fySmiley wrote:
    All that said this is a problem of the D6 system as noted before. i would love to see more varience but then we would need more things like individual dice for weapons or somethign like that. if it were a D10 system as an example and we could gradient it out sure we could have the conversation about a middle ground, but game balance wise currently ork boys get removed by the shovelful and the only way to make them work is goffs+ghaz+painbody+kff+wierdboy+skarboyz and if your units take that much buffing to be good there is probably a game mechanic or unit problem. Personally i hope again our units are less reliant on hero hammer and we can get some ork units actually functioning independently other than buggie spam. (i like my buggies don't get me wrong but it feel weird to take minimum squad buys now for troops since they are kind of useless)


    40k isn't rolling a d6, but four of them, each interacting with the target in a different way. There are plenty of wheels and screws to turn between to hit, S/T, AP/armor/invuls, damage/wounds/FNP and a bunch of modifiers for all of those. It's just that people are freaking out because they have started to turn one of the wheels which has been gathering rust for almost three decades.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 13:05:03


    Post by: G00fySmiley


     Jidmah wrote:
     G00fySmiley wrote:
    All that said this is a problem of the D6 system as noted before. i would love to see more varience but then we would need more things like individual dice for weapons or somethign like that. if it were a D10 system as an example and we could gradient it out sure we could have the conversation about a middle ground, but game balance wise currently ork boys get removed by the shovelful and the only way to make them work is goffs+ghaz+painbody+kff+wierdboy+skarboyz and if your units take that much buffing to be good there is probably a game mechanic or unit problem. Personally i hope again our units are less reliant on hero hammer and we can get some ork units actually functioning independently other than buggie spam. (i like my buggies don't get me wrong but it feel weird to take minimum squad buys now for troops since they are kind of useless)


    40k isn't rolling a d6, but four of them, each interacting with the target in a different way. There are plenty of wheels and screws to turn between to hit, S/T, AP/armor/invuls, damage/wounds/FNP and a bunch of modifiers for all of those. It's just that people are freaking out because they have started to turn one of the wheels which has been gathering rust for almost three decades.


    that is a fair point as yea there ate multiple d6 rolls, i more meant within each stat. I understand why they don't with 40k as there are way more models but i have played a few skirmish games where things like one model might hit on a 4+ on a D6 (do 66% of the time) vs another who might hit on a 6+ on a D10 to represent a 50% chance to hit. Admittedly easier to do when there are 5-10 models on a board.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 13:17:29


    Post by: vipoid


    SemperMortis wrote:

    To put it bluntly? No. In 4th edition a Marine had 1 shot from his boltgun at 24' range and 2 shots at 12' but only if he stood still that turn. That Marine was 2.5x more expensive than the Ork boy and 300% more durable vs S4 incoming fire. In 9th edition taht Marine has 2 shots from 24 if he stands still and 2 shots from 12 no matter what, he also gets AP on his boltgun depending on what turn it is. That Marine is now only 2.25x More expensive than the Ork boy and is now more than 500% more durable to incoming S4 fire.


    To be fair, I think buffing Marines in this manner was also a big mistake.

    Not least because there's a severe and unresolvable disconnect between what Marines are supposed to be and what they actually are.

    In the fluff, Marines are super-soldiers. They're elite, well-armoured warriors who (at least by the standards of the Imperium) are each a one-man-army.

    The problem is not (and was never) that this could not not represented in the rules. The problem was that it shouldn't be represented in the rules.

    The reason is that in the fluff Marines are incredibly scarce. In the majority of encounters, you can expect Marines to never even turn up. Instead, the guard will have to try and handle things on their own (with maybe some Scions or Admech support if they're very lucky). IOW, the guard are - by far - the baseline troops of the Imperium and the Marines are very rare, very elite units.

    Now look at what you actually see on the table. Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines, Marines. Blue Marines, Green Marines, Dark Green Marines, Vampire Marines, Furry Marines, Silver Marines, etc.. Even if were *exceedingly* generous and count IG and MT as separate armies, they're still outnumbered 6:1 by Marines. There are more flavours of Marines than exist actual Xeno armies.

    The reason this matters is that, regardless of the fluff, Marines are the baseline infantry in 40k. They are the standard against which all other infantry and weapons are measured. So when you buff them to super-elite levels, you don't actually end up making them elite. You instead make a new baseline standard for infantry in 40k (and for the weapons needed to deal with such).

    This is why Marines should have stayed as they were. Because they are victims of their own popularity and ubiquity. If Marines are to be super-elite because its "fluffy", then one shouldn't neglect another key aspect of their fluff - i.e. their scarcity within the setting.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 14:15:04


    Post by: SemperMortis


    Vipoid, ive been saying that for years. The problem is you have a host of Marine defenders who can't get this through their heads. In their opinion the only way Marines can be adequately represented on the battlefield is if they are so ridiculously over powered that anyone with a modicum of skill will just pilot them to easy 5 and 0 results at majors and GTs.

    You had Aggressors capable of putting out 24 shots a turn each and people defended that as not broken. You had girlyman gunlines and the lot and people defended that as not broken, you had the damn eradicators come out and people defended that as not broken.

    Why? Because as you pointed out, Marines are the default setting in this game and therefore everyone builds lists to fight against Marines. Last I checked, my Smasha Mek gunz weren't all that good at killing Nidz or Tau firewarriors, but they are damn good at killing Marines Same for my Rokkitz. Why do I take them? Because in a 5 game tournament I know I have a very good chance of facing at a minimum of 1 Marine list.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 14:17:10


    Post by: Da Boss


    If the game is a power fantasy for marines, then making other factions powerful is bad game design.
    If it is not a power fantasy for marines, then it's fine to make other factions more powerful.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 14:20:32


    Post by: SemperMortis


     Da Boss wrote:
    If the game is a power fantasy for marines, then making other factions powerful is bad game design.
    If it is not a power fantasy for marines, then it's fine to make other factions more powerful.


    Yep, but again, you have a plethora of players like Xeno who think the world is ending anytime a faction that isn't his gets buffed. The guy was screaming about how OP Killakanz were and how brokenly amazing the Stompa is for god sake, could you imagine if Orkz got a unit like Eradicators or Attack Bikes? He would probably go into apoplexy


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 14:52:07


    Post by: Xenomancers


    SemperMortis wrote:
     Da Boss wrote:
    If the game is a power fantasy for marines, then making other factions powerful is bad game design.
    If it is not a power fantasy for marines, then it's fine to make other factions more powerful.


    Yep, but again, you have a plethora of players like Xeno who think the world is ending anytime a faction that isn't his gets buffed. The guy was screaming about how OP Killakanz were and how brokenly amazing the Stompa is for god sake, could you imagine if Orkz got a unit like Eradicators or Attack Bikes? He would probably go into apoplexy

    I just have a real understanding of the community. A good portion is literally just marine haters like you are. They even sneak into marine fan pages to talk about marines being nerfed. Funny you don't go onto say a DE or CWE fan page and see them talking about nerfing their own units - it is a scam. Marines are currently bottom tier of the newly updated armies. Orks currently win more than marines. Yet...were going to buff orks now against an army that is supposed to be their hardest counter? LOL. It is all a sham.

    The change is unnecessary and obviously just a cash grab to get marine players to buy heavy intercessors and ork players being forced to by new ork beast snaggy boys. Just so we can all wound each other on 4's again. An absolute joke. Orks are as tough as custodians. Makes a lot of sense actually not.




    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 15:05:18


    Post by: warhead01


     Xenomancers wrote:


    The change is unnecessary and obviously just a cash grab to get marine players to buy heavy intercessors and ork players being forced to by new ork beast snaggy boys. Just so we can all wound each other on 4's again. An absolute joke. Orks are as tough as custodians. Makes a lot of sense actually not.



    I'm not seeing how T5 Ork boys makes me want to buy Any Beast Snagga boys. Until we see the data sheet I see no value in them over regular Boys or Nobs.




    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 15:16:44


    Post by: Xenomancers


     warhead01 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:


    The change is unnecessary and obviously just a cash grab to get marine players to buy heavy intercessors and ork players being forced to by new ork beast snaggy boys. Just so we can all wound each other on 4's again. An absolute joke. Orks are as tough as custodians. Makes a lot of sense actually not.



    I'm not seeing how T5 Ork boys makes me want to buy Any Beast Snagga boys. Until we see the data sheet I see no value in them over regular Boys or Nobs.



    Thought I had seen them at str 5. Also have a 6++ save.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 15:28:25


    Post by: warhead01


     Xenomancers wrote:
     warhead01 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:


    The change is unnecessary and obviously just a cash grab to get marine players to buy heavy intercessors and ork players being forced to by new ork beast snaggy boys. Just so we can all wound each other on 4's again. An absolute joke. Orks are as tough as custodians. Makes a lot of sense actually not.



    I'm not seeing how T5 Ork boys makes me want to buy Any Beast Snagga boys. Until we see the data sheet I see no value in them over regular Boys or Nobs.



    Thought I had seen them at str 5. Also have a 6++ save.

    Yes you saw that. We still don't have a known unit cap for the snaggas. We also don't know how the points and other special rules will shake out. I'm not at all excited about beast snagga boys.
    They don't fit my preferred playstyle, as far as I can tell. I will wait for the codex and see, maybe I'm wrong. I don't find much exciting about a 6++ I will just fail to pass. ST5 is ok but not really that necessary but it is funny that ST4 is the new ST3.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 15:30:26


    Post by: PaddyMick


    The issue at question isn't about competativeness, but about whether the rule fits the setting and feels right.

    To me it does, because orks are much tougher than humans, even marines.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 15:32:26


    Post by: Xenomancers


     warhead01 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     warhead01 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:


    The change is unnecessary and obviously just a cash grab to get marine players to buy heavy intercessors and ork players being forced to by new ork beast snaggy boys. Just so we can all wound each other on 4's again. An absolute joke. Orks are as tough as custodians. Makes a lot of sense actually not.



    I'm not seeing how T5 Ork boys makes me want to buy Any Beast Snagga boys. Until we see the data sheet I see no value in them over regular Boys or Nobs.



    Thought I had seen them at str 5. Also have a 6++ save.

    Yes you saw that. We still don't have a known unit cap for the snaggas. We also don't know how the points and other special rules will shake out. I'm not at all excited about beast snagga boys.
    They don't fit my preferred playstyle, as far as I can tell. I will wait for the codex and see, maybe I'm wrong. I don't find much exciting about a 6++ I will just fail to pass. ST5 is ok but not really that necessary but it is funny that ST4 is the new ST3.

    That is my point. It's just another stupid round of stat inflation. It is bad for all armies because it just makes your unit choices more limited. Str 4 was already in a pretty bad place - With ork boys going to T5. Str 4 guns have no place in the game. Except interestingly en mass against T7 units. It does make the jump to Str 6 a little more interesting now.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 15:43:35


    Post by: Da Boss


    Was it stupid stat inflation when Marines went to 2 Wounds?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 15:46:38


    Post by: Xenomancers


     PaddyMick wrote:
    The issue at question isn't about competativeness, but about whether the rule fits the setting and feels right.

    To me it does, because orks are much tougher than humans, even marines.

    This is false. An ork is not more tough than a marine. It doesn't make sense thematically or in reality.
    A marine stands 8 foot and over 1000 lbs In ceramite armor.
    An ork Boy is 6' and around 300+ lbs.

    Somehow you think the ork is tougher than the marine? please explain. The marine has 3 times the bulk. How is it less tough?

    I think you are confusing ork boys with Nobs - which I am with you Nobs should probably be T5 Str 5 and have 3 wounds.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Da Boss wrote:
    Was it stupid stat inflation when Marines went to 2 Wounds?

    You might notice...marines went to 2 wounds when all heavy infantry in the game got wound buffs.

    You could call it inflation but I think most everyone was happen when their heavy infantry weren't getting dropped by single boltguns on a failed save. This was a big complaint in former edditions - as space marines not really feeling like space marines in game over the past several edditions.

    The idea here is that space marines were not treated as heavy infantry before...when that is what they actually are. Same thing for Terminators honestly.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 15:53:19


    Post by: RaptorInMotion


     Da Boss wrote:
    Was it stupid stat inflation when Marines went to 2 Wounds?


    In my opinion, no. It should be all relative. A grot should have 1 wound because its the lowest number we can get, and is also one of the flimsiest beings in the setting. Theres obviously others. A marine by comparison could take twice as much as a grot, so 2 wounds is a logical step. I mean, Ork Boyz should also have 2 wounds too, but this would be in a different 40k edition.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 15:55:01


    Post by: Xenomancers


     RaptorInMotion wrote:
     Da Boss wrote:
    Was it stupid stat inflation when Marines went to 2 Wounds?


    In my opinion, no. It should be all relative. A grot should have 1 wound because its the lowest number we can get, and is also one of the flimsiest beings in the setting. Theres obviously others. A marine by comparison could take twice as much as a grot, so 2 wounds is a logical step. I mean, Ork Boyz should also have 2 wounds too, but this would be in a different 40k edition.

    It would be like sigmar...Where a Savage ork in sigmar is equal to a chaos warrior or sigmarine. They also pay about the same points...In 40k they cost around 3x less than a marine.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 15:55:16


    Post by: Jidmah


    Oh boy, Xeno is on fire today. Citing a page listing orks at below 50% winrate as proof for orks being OP, tinfoil hat conspiracy about semper sneaking into marine fansites to suggest nerfs, his group with the guy crushing xeno with kanz being the only group who played 7th *right*, boyz getting buffed so heavy intercessors get bought so beast snaggas get bought, T5 orks now being troop in *every game* irrespective of what armies are playing, 1W T5 6+ being tougher than 2W T4 3+...

    Can't wait what's next! *grabs popcorn*


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 15:56:35


    Post by: Xenomancers


     Jidmah wrote:
    Oh boy, Xeno is on fire today. Citing a page listing orks at below 50% winrate as proof for orks being OP, tinfoil hat conspiracy about semper sneaking into marine fansites to suggest nerfs, his group with the guy crushing xeno with kanz being the only group who played 7th *right*, boyz getting buffed so heavy intercessors get bought so beast snaggas get bought, T5 orks now being troops for all armies in the game...

    Can't wait what's next! *grabs popcorn*

    Well you are misquoting me. I only said Orks win more than marines. Which is true - you can't argue with that fact.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 16:08:50


    Post by: Jidmah


     Xenomancers wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    Oh boy, Xeno is on fire today. Citing a page listing orks at below 50% winrate as proof for orks being OP, tinfoil hat conspiracy about semper sneaking into marine fansites to suggest nerfs, his group with the guy crushing xeno with kanz being the only group who played 7th *right*, boyz getting buffed so heavy intercessors get bought so beast snaggas get bought, T5 orks now being troops for all armies in the game...

    Can't wait what's next! *grabs popcorn*

    Well you are misquoting me. I only said Orks win more than marines. Which is true - you can't argue with that fact.


    I wouldn't ever dare to argue facts.

    Spoiler:




    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 16:10:03


    Post by: G00fySmiley


    just going to put this here

    "Ork Physiology is fascinating and terrifying in equal measure, demonstrating inhuman degrees of resilience to the point where they can withstand seemingly fatal wounds with little apparent long-term consequence. Indeed, Orks witnessed suffering fatal wounds in the midst of heavy fighting have often been observed again several days later, larger and stronger than they were before their injuries and with no sign of those wounds save for some largely superficial scarring."
    — Genetor Aurelius Thoze, Adeptus Mechanicus Xenobiologist

    probably worth reading this whole fandom wiki with sources.

    https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Orks

    also of note again you can't say "an ork is ___ size" there are soem standards but in a larger waagh liek Ghaz's boys would likely be able to dwarf a nob for smaller warbands


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 16:10:59


    Post by: catbarf


     Xenomancers wrote:
    This is false. An ork is not more tough than a marine. It doesn't make sense thematically or in reality.
    A marine stands 8 foot and over 1000 lbs In ceramite armor.
    An ork Boy is 6' and around 300+ lbs.


    Jes Goodwin's diagram of a Marine is 7ft (in armor). A Boy is about the same size, just stooped. Armor is irrelevant here, that's why you get a 3+ and the Ork doesn't.

    Painting a Marine as substantially larger than a Boy requires some real pick-and-choose of what sources you go with. Especially if you've seen the new Boy models. Marines, for all their redundant organs, aren't an undifferentiated mass of fungal flesh, either.

    And yet, you're still tougher.

     Xenomancers wrote:
    You might notice...marines went to 2 wounds when all heavy infantry in the game got wound buffs.


    Hah, what? Immortals are W1. Gravis didn't get further buffed. Chaos Marines got nothing. A bunch of armies with heavy infantry still haven't been updated.

    So really just Firstborn, Terminators, and at a stretch Plague Marines (months later). Marines went to 2 wounds when some Marines went to 2 wounds. Wow, that's... something?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 16:11:25


    Post by: Selfcontrol


    Oh boy, Xeno is on fire today.


    Is that so ? He's been like this since the beginning of 8th edition. This is just good old regular Xenomancers.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 16:14:47


    Post by: Xenomancers


     Jidmah wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    Oh boy, Xeno is on fire today. Citing a page listing orks at below 50% winrate as proof for orks being OP, tinfoil hat conspiracy about semper sneaking into marine fansites to suggest nerfs, his group with the guy crushing xeno with kanz being the only group who played 7th *right*, boyz getting buffed so heavy intercessors get bought so beast snaggas get bought, T5 orks now being troops for all armies in the game...

    Can't wait what's next! *grabs popcorn*

    Well you are misquoting me. I only said Orks win more than marines. Which is true - you can't argue with that fact.


    I wouldn't ever dare to argue facts.

    Spoiler:



    Not sure what filters you are running because white scars are below orks on the main win loss area for me. It's also pretty dubious There are several space marine factions in the 45% wr area and a T5 ork buff will only hurt them more.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     G00fySmiley wrote:
    just going to put this here

    "Ork Physiology is fascinating and terrifying in equal measure, demonstrating inhuman degrees of resilience to the point where they can withstand seemingly fatal wounds with little apparent long-term consequence. Indeed, Orks witnessed suffering fatal wounds in the midst of heavy fighting have often been observed again several days later, larger and stronger than they were before their injuries and with no sign of those wounds save for some largely superficial scarring."
    — Genetor Aurelius Thoze, Adeptus Mechanicus Xenobiologist

    probably worth reading this whole fandom wiki with sources.

    https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Orks

    also of note again you can't say "an ork is ___ size" there are soem standards but in a larger waagh liek Ghaz's boys would likely be able to dwarf a nob for smaller warbands

    So - that should be an army of Nobs then. Have no issue with that. Doesn't mean your average ork boy should be T 5.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     catbarf wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    This is false. An ork is not more tough than a marine. It doesn't make sense thematically or in reality.
    A marine stands 8 foot and over 1000 lbs In ceramite armor.
    An ork Boy is 6' and around 300+ lbs.


    Jes Goodwin's diagram of a Marine is 7ft (in armor). A Boy is about the same size, just stooped. Armor is irrelevant here, that's why you get a 3+ and the Ork doesn't.

    Painting a Marine as substantially larger than a Boy requires some real pick-and-choose of what sources you go with. Especially if you've seen the new Boy models. Marines, for all their redundant organs, aren't an undifferentiated mass of fungal flesh, either.

    And yet, you're still tougher.

     Xenomancers wrote:
    You might notice...marines went to 2 wounds when all heavy infantry in the game got wound buffs.


    Hah, what? Immortals are W1. Gravis didn't get further buffed. Chaos Marines got nothing. A bunch of armies with heavy infantry still haven't been updated.

    So really just Firstborn, Terminators, and at a stretch Plague Marines (months later). Marines went to 2 wounds when some Marines went to 2 wounds. Wow, that's... something?

    T5 3+ save is actually better than t4 2 W 3+. It would take that in a heart beat. Warriors went to 3 wounds before that they were always 2 I think. I think you get the idea at the time - lots of units wound totals went up. You know that is what I am saying.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 16:23:26


    Post by: warhead01


     Xenomancers wrote:
     warhead01 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     warhead01 wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:


    The change is unnecessary and obviously just a cash grab to get marine players to buy heavy intercessors and ork players being forced to by new ork beast snaggy boys. Just so we can all wound each other on 4's again. An absolute joke. Orks are as tough as custodians. Makes a lot of sense actually not.



    I'm not seeing how T5 Ork boys makes me want to buy Any Beast Snagga boys. Until we see the data sheet I see no value in them over regular Boys or Nobs.



    Thought I had seen them at str 5. Also have a 6++ save.

    Yes you saw that. We still don't have a known unit cap for the snaggas. We also don't know how the points and other special rules will shake out. I'm not at all excited about beast snagga boys.
    They don't fit my preferred playstyle, as far as I can tell. I will wait for the codex and see, maybe I'm wrong. I don't find much exciting about a 6++ I will just fail to pass. ST5 is ok but not really that necessary but it is funny that ST4 is the new ST3.

    That is my point. It's just another stupid round of stat inflation. It is bad for all armies because it just makes your unit choices more limited. Str 4 was already in a pretty bad place - With ork boys going to T5. Str 4 guns have no place in the game. Except interestingly en mass against T7 units. It does make the jump to Str 6 a little more interesting now.


    The thing is, I believe it is intentional on GW's part. I believe they want players to spend 5 turns fishing for 5'sand 6's. I think that is their intent because of the to wound roll and mechanics this edition.
    This works with a +1/-1 to wound roll/hit roll mechanic lowering or raising those rolls 1 bracket. It doesn't look like they want something like BA Death company wounding Ork boys on 3's on the charge.
    For every thing a T5 Ork boy may hinder I am also looking for what else across the game it might balance or bring forward.
    Or I am completely wrong.
    And lastly I think, maybe T5 will balance out due to both my views just above and a change in the points costs of Ork boys.
    I guess I just think there is a bigger picture than are Ork boys T4 or T5. Will T5 stops 30 boys from being deleted in one round of fire, if so good. Ork players should get a turn too.
    My experiences with 9th playing space Marines so far have been something like I'm on the ropes until turn 3 then everything turns around in my favor, except any score I may have missed an opportunity to get the turns before. The other army just runs out of meaningful options and can't finish the job, seal the deal.

    Ork boys T5? Who turned on hard mode! I'm sure it will be a little challenging until the replacement codex for 9th drops in a year or two when GW's reached the right level of power creep.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 16:29:05


    Post by: JNAProductions


    Spoiler:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    Oh boy, Xeno is on fire today. Citing a page listing orks at below 50% winrate as proof for orks being OP, tinfoil hat conspiracy about semper sneaking into marine fansites to suggest nerfs, his group with the guy crushing xeno with kanz being the only group who played 7th *right*, boyz getting buffed so heavy intercessors get bought so beast snaggas get bought, T5 orks now being troops for all armies in the game...

    Can't wait what's next! *grabs popcorn*

    Well you are misquoting me. I only said Orks win more than marines. Which is true - you can't argue with that fact.


    I wouldn't ever dare to argue facts.


    Not sure what filters you are running because white scars are below orks on the main win loss area for me. It's also pretty dubious There are several space marine factions in the 45% wr area and a T5 ork buff will only hurt them more.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     G00fySmiley wrote:
    just going to put this here

    "Ork Physiology is fascinating and terrifying in equal measure, demonstrating inhuman degrees of resilience to the point where they can withstand seemingly fatal wounds with little apparent long-term consequence. Indeed, Orks witnessed suffering fatal wounds in the midst of heavy fighting have often been observed again several days later, larger and stronger than they were before their injuries and with no sign of those wounds save for some largely superficial scarring."
    — Genetor Aurelius Thoze, Adeptus Mechanicus Xenobiologist

    probably worth reading this whole fandom wiki with sources.

    https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Orks

    also of note again you can't say "an ork is ___ size" there are soem standards but in a larger waagh liek Ghaz's boys would likely be able to dwarf a nob for smaller warbands

    So - that should be an army of Nobs then. Have no issue with that. Doesn't mean your average ork boy should be T 5.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     catbarf wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    This is false. An ork is not more tough than a marine. It doesn't make sense thematically or in reality.
    A marine stands 8 foot and over 1000 lbs In ceramite armor.
    An ork Boy is 6' and around 300+ lbs.


    Jes Goodwin's diagram of a Marine is 7ft (in armor). A Boy is about the same size, just stooped. Armor is irrelevant here, that's why you get a 3+ and the Ork doesn't.

    Painting a Marine as substantially larger than a Boy requires some real pick-and-choose of what sources you go with. Especially if you've seen the new Boy models. Marines, for all their redundant organs, aren't an undifferentiated mass of fungal flesh, either.

    And yet, you're still tougher.

     Xenomancers wrote:
    You might notice...marines went to 2 wounds when all heavy infantry in the game got wound buffs.


    Hah, what? Immortals are W1. Gravis didn't get further buffed. Chaos Marines got nothing. A bunch of armies with heavy infantry still haven't been updated.

    So really just Firstborn, Terminators, and at a stretch Plague Marines (months later). Marines went to 2 wounds when some Marines went to 2 wounds. Wow, that's... something?

    T5 3+ save is actually better than t4 2 W 3+. It would take that in a heart beat. Warriors went to 3 wounds before that they were always 2 I think. I think you get the idea at the time - lots of units wound totals went up. You know that is what I am saying.
    Who has T5 3+ besides Marines?

    And Warriors have been W3 for a while. Since at least 7th.

    So who went up in wounds, for infantry? Not tanks or monsters, but infantry?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 16:30:22


    Post by: catbarf


     Xenomancers wrote:
    T5 3+ save is actually better than t4 2 W 3+. It would take that in a heart beat.


    Have you thought much about the fact that you are in an extreme minority on this one?

     Xenomancers wrote:
    Warriors went to 3 wounds before that they were always 2 I think. I think you get the idea at the time - lots of units wound totals went up. You know that is what I am saying.


    ...As in Tyranid Warriors?

    Which went to W3 in 5th edition?

    That's your idea of a heavy infantry unit that got a wound buff at roughly the same time as Marines in 9th Ed? While tons of other heavy infantry didn't get any sort of buff at all? And you're saying all heavy infantry got a wound buff?

    Just stop.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:01:15


    Post by: Pyroalchi


    Mathematically T5 W1 3+ (I assume you meant that, Xeno?) Is only better then T4 W2 3+ against S4, 5, 8 with D2. So heavy Bolters and overcharged plasma?
    Note that it is only marginally better against S8 Dd3 (battle cannons) as those need 9/4 = 2.25 hits to kill a T5 W1 3+ model and 12/5= 2.4 hits for T4 W2 3+


    Meanwhile T4 W2 3+ is better against S1,2,3,6,7, poison weapons, anything with 1 point damage, anything that causes mortal wounds...


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:09:55


    Post by: whembly


     Jidmah wrote:
    Tygre wrote:
    I wonder if marines should have been Toughness 5 and orks 2 Wounds. If that would have made more sense.


    Not really. The fluff is full of instances where a single well-aimed lasgun shot fells an ork.

    *cough* Ciaphus Cain jamming and shooting his lasgun into a warboss' eyeball socket *cough*


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:14:57


    Post by: JNAProductions


    And isn’t there the same for Marines?

    So why are Marines W2?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:16:26


    Post by: Racerguy180


    What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

    T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:23:01


    Post by: Xenomancers


     Pyroalchi wrote:
    Mathematically T5 W1 3+ (I assume you meant that, Xeno?) Is only better then T4 W2 3+ against S4, 5, 8 with D2. So heavy Bolters and overcharged plasma?
    Note that it is only marginally better against S8 Dd3 (battle cannons) as those need 9/4 = 2.25 hits to kill a T5 W1 3+ model and 12/5= 2.4 hits for T4 W2 3+


    Meanwhile T4 W2 3+ is better against S1,2,3,6,7, poison weapons, anything with 1 point damage, anything that causes mortal wounds...

    T5 feels better to me most of the time. It also messes with target priority of the opponent. Much more likely to force them to shoot weapons at a non optimal target. Aside from being mathematically better against a large portion of weapons.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Racerguy180 wrote:
    What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

    T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

    Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:25:10


    Post by: JNAProductions


     Xenomancers wrote:
     Pyroalchi wrote:
    Mathematically T5 W1 3+ (I assume you meant that, Xeno?) Is only better then T4 W2 3+ against S4, 5, 8 with D2. So heavy Bolters and overcharged plasma?
    Note that it is only marginally better against S8 Dd3 (battle cannons) as those need 9/4 = 2.25 hits to kill a T5 W1 3+ model and 12/5= 2.4 hits for T4 W2 3+


    Meanwhile T4 W2 3+ is better against S1,2,3,6,7, poison weapons, anything with 1 point damage, anything that causes mortal wounds...

    T5 feels better to me most of the time. It also messes with target priority of the opponent. Much more likely to force them to shoot weapons at a non optimal target. Aside from being mathematically better against a large portion of weapons.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Racerguy180 wrote:
    What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

    T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

    Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?
    Anything that relies on your opponent being bad isn't really good. Plus, the math isn't that hard.

    And name some weapons that T5 Orks are more durable against than Marines. Go ahead.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:28:22


    Post by: Xenomancers


     catbarf wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    T5 3+ save is actually better than t4 2 W 3+. It would take that in a heart beat.


    Have you thought much about the fact that you are in an extreme minority on this one?

     Xenomancers wrote:
    Warriors went to 3 wounds before that they were always 2 I think. I think you get the idea at the time - lots of units wound totals went up. You know that is what I am saying.


    ...As in Tyranid Warriors?

    Which went to W3 in 5th edition?

    That's your idea of a heavy infantry unit that got a wound buff at roughly the same time as Marines in 9th Ed? While tons of other heavy infantry didn't get any sort of buff at all? And you're saying all heavy infantry got a wound buff?

    Just stop.

    If being in a minority by being right is considered a bad thing? Most armies have lots of multi damage attacks. 2 wounds is a novelty at that point. Meanwhile - str 10 is still pretty rare.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:29:25


    Post by: JNAProductions


    Care to list weapons that are better against Marines than Orks, Xeno?

    I can think of a small number, but not a lot.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:32:09


    Post by: Xenomancers


     JNAProductions wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     Pyroalchi wrote:
    Mathematically T5 W1 3+ (I assume you meant that, Xeno?) Is only better then T4 W2 3+ against S4, 5, 8 with D2. So heavy Bolters and overcharged plasma?
    Note that it is only marginally better against S8 Dd3 (battle cannons) as those need 9/4 = 2.25 hits to kill a T5 W1 3+ model and 12/5= 2.4 hits for T4 W2 3+


    Meanwhile T4 W2 3+ is better against S1,2,3,6,7, poison weapons, anything with 1 point damage, anything that causes mortal wounds...

    T5 feels better to me most of the time. It also messes with target priority of the opponent. Much more likely to force them to shoot weapons at a non optimal target. Aside from being mathematically better against a large portion of weapons.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Racerguy180 wrote:
    What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

    T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

    Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?
    Anything that relies on your opponent being bad isn't really good. Plus, the math isn't that hard.

    And name some weapons that T5 Orks are more durable against than Marines. Go ahead.

    You miss understand. In an army where nothing is lower than T5 (IE the way I play necrons) you are forced to shoot str 4 weapons at them.

    Also - marines should be more durable than orks - by a wide margin. Because orks do A LOT more damage than marines do. A lot more.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     JNAProductions wrote:
    Care to list weapons that are better against Marines than Orks, Xeno?

    I can think of a small number, but not a lot.

    Grav cannons/ Dessie cannons/ Heavy bolters/ Splinter cannons/ blight launchers / battle cannons

    Just off the top of my head mind you. These weapons kill a lot more points of marines than they do orks when they fire. PLUS this doesn't even come close to the disparity created by introducing...invulnerable save bubbles of 5++. Which greatly increase the durability of orks over marines vs practically any weapon you choose with at least ap -1. IE almost every weapon in the game at this point.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:38:37


    Post by: JNAProductions


     Xenomancers wrote:
     JNAProductions wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     Pyroalchi wrote:
    Mathematically T5 W1 3+ (I assume you meant that, Xeno?) Is only better then T4 W2 3+ against S4, 5, 8 with D2. So heavy Bolters and overcharged plasma?
    Note that it is only marginally better against S8 Dd3 (battle cannons) as those need 9/4 = 2.25 hits to kill a T5 W1 3+ model and 12/5= 2.4 hits for T4 W2 3+


    Meanwhile T4 W2 3+ is better against S1,2,3,6,7, poison weapons, anything with 1 point damage, anything that causes mortal wounds...

    T5 feels better to me most of the time. It also messes with target priority of the opponent. Much more likely to force them to shoot weapons at a non optimal target. Aside from being mathematically better against a large portion of weapons.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Racerguy180 wrote:
    What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

    T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

    Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?
    Anything that relies on your opponent being bad isn't really good. Plus, the math isn't that hard.

    And name some weapons that T5 Orks are more durable against than Marines. Go ahead.

    You miss understand. In an army where nothing is lower than T5 (IE the way I play necrons) you are forced to shoot str 4 weapons at them.

    Also - marines should be more durable than orks - by a wide margin. Because orks do A LOT more damage than marines do. A lot more.
    Answer the question, Xeno. What weapons are less effective against T5 Orks than Marines?

    And, more damage... Right...

    At 8 Points, a Boy puts out 2 shots at 18" hitting on a 5+ (average same as RR1s due to DDD) and 2 attacks in melee on a 3+. All S4. All no AP.
    At 20 points, an Intercessor puts out 3 shots at 24" and 2-3 swings in melee, all on a 3+. All S4, sometimes AP0, sometimes better.

    So a Boy gets (assuming they shoot twice and fight twice) 1.56 hits in shooting and 2.67 in melee. 4.23 total.
    An Intercessor gets (assuming they shoot twice and fight twice (once on charge), despite having better range) 4 hits in shooting and 3.33 hits in melee. 7.33 total.

    That is 1.89 points per hit on the Boy.
    That is 2.73 points per hit on the Intercessor.

    Which, yeah, the Ork is killier... Assuming they're never targeted. Assuming they make it to melee despite being slower. Assuming the Marine has no buffs, which are absolutely everywhere in the Dex.

    An Intercessor is a unit with great durability, good shooting, and good melee.
    An Ork Boy is a unit with crap durability, bad shooting, and great melee. They SHOULD do more damage, if they can reach their target unmolested.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:41:31


    Post by: Xenomancers


     JNAProductions wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     JNAProductions wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
     Pyroalchi wrote:
    Mathematically T5 W1 3+ (I assume you meant that, Xeno?) Is only better then T4 W2 3+ against S4, 5, 8 with D2. So heavy Bolters and overcharged plasma?
    Note that it is only marginally better against S8 Dd3 (battle cannons) as those need 9/4 = 2.25 hits to kill a T5 W1 3+ model and 12/5= 2.4 hits for T4 W2 3+


    Meanwhile T4 W2 3+ is better against S1,2,3,6,7, poison weapons, anything with 1 point damage, anything that causes mortal wounds...

    T5 feels better to me most of the time. It also messes with target priority of the opponent. Much more likely to force them to shoot weapons at a non optimal target. Aside from being mathematically better against a large portion of weapons.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Racerguy180 wrote:
    What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

    T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

    Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?
    Anything that relies on your opponent being bad isn't really good. Plus, the math isn't that hard.

    And name some weapons that T5 Orks are more durable against than Marines. Go ahead.

    You miss understand. In an army where nothing is lower than T5 (IE the way I play necrons) you are forced to shoot str 4 weapons at them.

    Also - marines should be more durable than orks - by a wide margin. Because orks do A LOT more damage than marines do. A lot more.
    Answer the question, Xeno. What weapons are less effective against T5 Orks than Marines?

    And, more damage... Right...

    At 8 Points, a Boy puts out 2 shots at 18" hitting on a 5+ (average same as RR1s due to DDD) and 2 attacks in melee on a 3+. All S4. All no AP.
    At 20 points, an Intercessor puts out 3 shots at 24" and 2-3 swings in melee, all on a 3+. All S4, sometimes AP0, sometimes better.

    So a Boy gets (assuming they shoot twice and fight twice) 1.56 hits in shooting and 2.67 in melee. 4.23 total.
    An Intercessor gets (assuming they shoot twice and fight twice (once on charge), despite having better range) 4 hits in shooting and 3.33 hits in melee. 7.33 total.

    That is 1.89 points per hit on the Boy.
    That is 2.73 points per hit on the Intercessor.

    Which, yeah, the Ork is killier... Assuming they're never targeted. Assuming they make it to melee despite being slower. Assuming the Marine has no buffs, which are absolutely everywhere in the Dex.

    An Intercessor is a unit with great durability, good shooting, and good melee.
    An Ork Boy is a unit with crap durability, bad shooting, and great melee. They SHOULD do more damage, if they can reach their target unmolested.

    Have no issue with them having more damage - they always have - They just buffed their damage and durability by a dice pip each on a d6. That is also fine if the points are right but the points are going to have to be much higher than most orks will want to pay...hate to break it to ya

    Compare this new ork boy to a flayed one or a geensteller. I think youll find the comparison quit favorable for the ork. These units cost 13/14 respectively.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:42:39


    Post by: JNAProductions


     Xenomancers wrote:
    Grav cannons/ Dessie cannons/ Heavy bolters/ Splinter cannons/ blight launchers / battle cannons

    Just off the top of my head mind you. These weapons kill a lot more points of marines than they do orks when they fire. PLUS this doesn't even come close to the disparity created by introducing...invulnerable save bubbles of 5++. Which greatly increase the durability of orks over marines vs practically any weapon you choose with at least ap -1. IE almost every weapon in the game at this point.
    Grav Cannons, okay. That's one-tell me, how many Grav Cannons do any army but Marines have?
    Disintegrators too. Again, a unique to one army weapon, and one that I don't see taken anymore very often.
    Heavy Bolters, if all three shots hit, kill one Marine. They kill 1.5 Orks. So that's wrong.
    Splinter Cannons are even worse! They kill three-fourths of a Marine, while killing 1.5 Orks.
    I'm unfamiliar with Blight Launcher stats, so I'll refrain from comment on that.
    Battle Cannons kill, assuming 6 hits, 4 Orks. But only 2-3 Marine, depending on damage rolls.

    And any weapon has AP-1, you say? Care to take a gander at Nurgle Daemons?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:47:34


    Post by: Xenomancers


     JNAProductions wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    Grav cannons/ Dessie cannons/ Heavy bolters/ Splinter cannons/ blight launchers / battle cannons

    Just off the top of my head mind you. These weapons kill a lot more points of marines than they do orks when they fire. PLUS this doesn't even come close to the disparity created by introducing...invulnerable save bubbles of 5++. Which greatly increase the durability of orks over marines vs practically any weapon you choose with at least ap -1. IE almost every weapon in the game at this point.
    Grav Cannons, okay. That's one-tell me, how many Grav Cannons do any army but Marines have?
    Disintegrators too. Again, a unique to one army weapon, and one that I don't see taken anymore very often.
    Heavy Bolters, if all three shots hit, kill one Marine. They kill 1.5 Orks. So that's wrong.
    Splinter Cannons are even worse! They kill three-fourths of a Marine, while killing 1.5 Orks.
    I'm unfamiliar with Blight Launcher stats, so I'll refrain from comment on that.
    Battle Cannons kill, assuming 6 hits, 4 Orks. But only 2-3 Marine, depending on damage rolls.

    And any weapon has AP-1, you say? Care to take a gander at Nurgle Daemons?

    I plan on running 2 full devastator squads with them with my Ultras Full infantry list - it is literally the best weapon option in the army - that and multi meltas.
    Battle cannons are flat 3 damage now - confirmed in the sisters codex.
    I didn't even get into plasma weapons....Which are extremely common. Or autocannons...Extremely common.

    You can't kill 1.5 of an ork dude. This is why rounding was invented. To give you a better idea of actual outcomes.
    Hate to break it to you. There are a lot more grav cannons on tables right now than their are nurgle daemons.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:50:08


    Post by: Pyroalchi


    While the Question was adressed towards Xeno one has to admit that the overcharged plasma profile (S8, -3, D2) needs 1.44 hits to kill a T4 W2 3+ Marine, but 1.5 hits to kill a T5 W1, 6+ Ork. Similarly Meltas (S8, -4, D6) need 1.4 hits vs. Marines and 1.5 vs. Boyz (but why are you shooting melta on boys???).

    But the "problem" is that while there are very few weapons that are more efficient in killing T4 W2 3+ than they are in killing T5 W1 6+, there are tons of weapons where it is the other way around. Notably everything that does not pay premium for AP or multiple damage. Just looking at Imperial guard you need 3.6 lasgun/flamer/frag grenade/CC/Wyvern hits to kill an ork boy but 18 (12 for the flamer) to kill a Marine.

    Edit: and no, until we get our codex the IG battle cannon is Dd3 not D3

    Edit 2: note that the thought on "weapons more effective in killing boys" was intended on a per model, not a per point basis as that was how I understood the question


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 17:57:10


    Post by: Xenomancers


     Pyroalchi wrote:
    While the Question was adressed towards Xeno one has to admit that the overcharged plasma profile (S8, -3, D2) needs 1.44 hits to kill a T4 W2 3+ Marine, but 1.5 hits to kill a T5 W1, 6+ Ork. Similarly Meltas (S8, -4, D6) need 1.4 hits vs. Marines and 1.5 vs. Boyz (but why are you shooting melta on boys???).

    But the "problem" is that while there are very few weapons that are more efficient in killing T4 W2 3+ than they are in killing T5 W1 6+, there are tons of weapons where it is the other way around. Notably everything that does not pay premium for AP or multiple damage. Just looking at Imperial guard you need 3.6 lasgun/flamer/frag grenade/CC/Wyvern hits to kill an ork boy but 18 (12 for the flamer) to kill a Marine.

    Edit: and no, until we get our codex the IG battle cannon is Dd3 not D3

    Just use the sisters one then.

    apart from IG lasguns en mass - no one is really having much issue killing marines anyhow.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 18:00:22


    Post by: Pyroalchi


    Seriously? Do you think IG players just saying "my battle cannons are D3 now because sisters have them too" will be accepted?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 18:01:29


    Post by: JNAProductions


     Xenomancers wrote:
     JNAProductions wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    Grav cannons/ Dessie cannons/ Heavy bolters/ Splinter cannons/ blight launchers / battle cannons

    Just off the top of my head mind you. These weapons kill a lot more points of marines than they do orks when they fire. PLUS this doesn't even come close to the disparity created by introducing...invulnerable save bubbles of 5++. Which greatly increase the durability of orks over marines vs practically any weapon you choose with at least ap -1. IE almost every weapon in the game at this point.
    Grav Cannons, okay. That's one-tell me, how many Grav Cannons do any army but Marines have?
    Disintegrators too. Again, a unique to one army weapon, and one that I don't see taken anymore very often.
    Heavy Bolters, if all three shots hit, kill one Marine. They kill 1.5 Orks. So that's wrong.
    Splinter Cannons are even worse! They kill three-fourths of a Marine, while killing 1.5 Orks.
    I'm unfamiliar with Blight Launcher stats, so I'll refrain from comment on that.
    Battle Cannons kill, assuming 6 hits, 4 Orks. But only 2-3 Marine, depending on damage rolls.

    And any weapon has AP-1, you say? Care to take a gander at Nurgle Daemons?

    I plan on running 2 full devastator squads with them with my Ultras Full infantry list - it is literally the best weapon option in the army - that and multi meltas.
    Battle cannons are flat 3 damage now - confirmed in the sisters codex.
    I didn't even get into plasma weapons....Which are extremely common. Or autocannons...Extremely common.

    You can't kill 1.5 of an ork dude. This is why rounding was invented. To give you a better idea of actual outcomes.
    Hate to break it to you. There are a lot more grav cannons on tables right now than their are nurgle daemons.
    Okay. I'll round, as per math.

    It kills 2 Orks. That's even worse for you.

    And Autocannons, you mean that weapon that wounds Marines and Orks the same, completely denies the Orks their save but still gives Marines a 4+?

    Don't forget about cover either! That halves damage taken by MEQs against anything AP0, while it offers Orks a paltry 20% reduction.

    Moreover, I'd like to ask what exactly is setting-breaking about Orks being tough. They're sentient fungus made entirely for war and combat, by a species far more powerful than the Eldar and humanity.

    Edit: Also, Xeno, I'd like to ask-are you talking from a tournament competition perspective, or a casual game perspective? Because they're pretty different.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 18:05:14


    Post by: Racerguy180


    Xenomancers wrote:

    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Racerguy180 wrote:
    What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

    T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

    Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?

    And......did it not break the setting or are you too fresh-faced? It's also been longer than 20yrs.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 18:15:39


    Post by: warhead01


     Pyroalchi wrote:
    Seriously? Do you think IG players just saying "my battle cannons are D3 now because sisters have them too" will be accepted?


    I'm not sure. When GW updated the Heavy bolter for the SM's they said all heavy bolters were now the new stats and If I remember they said every weapon updated in a codex would update for every codex with the same weapons. so, aside from damage for the SoB Battle cannon are they otherwise the same?
    If they are some one should find out if they updated.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 18:20:49


    Post by: vipoid


    I can't help but think that arguing with Xeno is akin to a game of football where one team pick up the goalposts, start running and never stop.

    At first, the bewildered opponents kick the ball after them, trying to score a goal in spite of the moving goalposts.

    After a while, however, the ball has long since been lost and now the opposing team have been reduced to merely keeping the speeding goalposts in sight.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 18:50:13


    Post by: Gene St. Ealer


     warhead01 wrote:
     Pyroalchi wrote:
    Seriously? Do you think IG players just saying "my battle cannons are D3 now because sisters have them too" will be accepted?


    I'm not sure. When GW updated the Heavy bolter for the SM's they said all heavy bolters were now the new stats and If I remember they said every weapon updated in a codex would update for every codex with the same weapons. so, aside from damage for the SoB Battle cannon are they otherwise the same?
    If they are some one should find out if they updated.


    Well, it's called a Castigator Battle Cannon. If a weapon doesn't have the exact same name, GW hasn't made good on that promise (...in some cases, they did update similar weapons with different names, but it's 100% arbitrary). Eldar and Tau Fusion Guns still have the old melta rule. Eldar Bright Lances didn't get updated when Dark Lances did (they're the same weapon.)



    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 18:52:39


    Post by: SemperMortis


     Xenomancers wrote:

    You might notice...marines went to 2 wounds when all heavy infantry in the game got wound buffs.

    You could call it inflation but I think most everyone was happen when their heavy infantry weren't getting dropped by single boltguns on a failed save. This was a big complaint in former edditions - as space marines not really feeling like space marines in game over the past several edditions.

    The idea here is that space marines were not treated as heavy infantry before...when that is what they actually are. Same thing for Terminators honestly.


    That's weird, my Nobz didn't gain a 3rd wound to compensate for the fact that they've had more wounds than Space Marines since...wow...20+ years?

     Xenomancers wrote:
     RaptorInMotion wrote:
     Da Boss wrote:
    Was it stupid stat inflation when Marines went to 2 Wounds?


    In my opinion, no. It should be all relative. A grot should have 1 wound because its the lowest number we can get, and is also one of the flimsiest beings in the setting. Theres obviously others. A marine by comparison could take twice as much as a grot, so 2 wounds is a logical step. I mean, Ork Boyz should also have 2 wounds too, but this would be in a different 40k edition.

    It would be like sigmar...Where a Savage ork in sigmar is equal to a chaos warrior or sigmarine. They also pay about the same points...In 40k they cost around 3x less than a marine.


    Xeno, I love your selective stats. You are the poster boy for why I read "Lying With Statistics" because you just basically use every trick that you can to manipulate the data to prove a false notion.

    An Ork boy is 8ppm, a Marine is 18. that is 10ppm more. 2x8 = 16. 18-16= 2 So when you say 3x what you mean is 2.25x I can forgive you for exaggerating but its ironic because it always seems to go in 1 specific direction.

    Also, that Marine is at the moment 5x more durable vs 1dmg weaponry than the ork boy where as previously, when the Marine was 2.5x more expensive it was only about 3x more durable. So as the editions have gone by the Marine has become cheaper in comparison to an ork boy while also becoming significantly more durable. As far as damage output, the Marine is actually more dangerous now than ever before as well.

     Xenomancers wrote:

    I just have a real understanding of the community. A good portion is literally just marine haters like you are. They even sneak into marine fan pages to talk about marines being nerfed. Funny you don't go onto say a DE or CWE fan page and see them talking about nerfing their own units - it is a scam. Marines are currently bottom tier of the newly updated armies. Orks currently win more than marines. Yet...were going to buff orks now against an army that is supposed to be their hardest counter? LOL. It is all a sham.

    The change is unnecessary and obviously just a cash grab to get marine players to buy heavy intercessors and ork players being forced to by new ork beast snaggy boys. Just so we can all wound each other on 4's again. An absolute joke. Orks are as tough as custodians. Makes a lot of sense actually not.


    You have a real understanding of the community you say? keeping in mind Jidmah just pointed out you were in the minority here and you agreed. So when you say understanding you mean you understand the Marine Fan boy club who hate having to play against factions on equal footing as Marines?

    Not sure what your insinuating, apparently I sneak into Marine fan pages? ....not even sure how to respond to that one but ok. As far as DE/CWE....um, if you want to do a deep dive you can go back to earlier editions and I was just as adamant about Tau and Eldar being broken, I was a massive hater of the ridiculous 7th edition CWE codex...you know, the one you defended in a recent topic thread because you meta gamed as Eldar for a bit as well

    As far as your nonsensical statement that Orkz win more games than Marines do, again you can only ever point to W/L rate but conveniently leave out Top 4 finishes.

    In 2021 so far Orkz have a grand total of....10 Top 4 finishes in Majors/GTs. That is across all kultures. Marines on the other hand....

    DA have 12
    BT have 2
    Blood Angels have 4
    IH 1
    Raven Guard have 1
    Salamanders 2
    Space Furries 7
    Smurfs 3
    Scars 5
    Total: 38. So 3.8 or ALMOST 4x as many

    I'll also gladly point out that DE are OP at the moment, I haven't played them in a tournament since their nerf but yeah, not hard to see that they are dominating right now, even though since January they only have a W/L rate of 31.43% https://onedrive.live.com/View.aspx?resid=AF10FF48A372CEE4!939&authkey=!AI4cPoutPkJTLZA" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://onedrive.live.com/View.aspx?resid=AF10FF48A372CEE4!939&authkey=!AI4cPoutPkJTLZA

    its...almost like W/L is a useless statistic used by those trying to push a narrative but know that if they include context it defeats their argument.

    For those unaware of this long standing (bad) argument by Xeno, he thinks W/L rate is more important than top 4 finishes. Well, Since May, According to 40kstats, Drukhari have a 30.83% W/L rate. Meaning they win less than every 3rd game. 155 wins, 351 losses. In that same time period though they have 39! top 4 finishes. They have more Top 4 finishes than All factions of Marines combined since January. But according to xeno's that doesn't matter because their W/L is low

     Xenomancers wrote:

    T5 feels better to me most of the time. It also messes with target priority of the opponent. Much more likely to force them to shoot weapons at a non optimal target. Aside from being mathematically better against a large portion of weapons.
    Ah, well if we are going to use feelings instead of stats than you are completely correct. Of course, those of us who actually want to discuss real balance as opposed to balance in the fantasy world of xenos will politely ignore your feelings.

     Xenomancers wrote:
    Have no issue with them having more damage - they always have - They just buffed their damage and durability by a dice pip each on a d6. That is also fine if the points are right but the points are going to have to be much higher than most orks will want to pay...hate to break it to ya. Compare this new ork boy to a flayed one or a geensteller. I think youll find the comparison quit favorable for the ork. These units cost 13/14 respectively.


    Marines were significantly less durable in 4th than they are now compared to Ork boyz. Marines are currently CHEAPER compared to ork boyz than they used to be. The Mechanics of the game have now changed in favor of MSU rather than horde (IE. Smaller engagement ranges in CC) Even with -1AP choppas it will take 4 orks swinging away to kill 1 Marine, 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds and -1AP against 3+ means 2dmg for 1 dead Marine. In 4th it was 3 Boyz, 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 1 dead Marine.

    In 4th, 3 Ork boyz was 18pts to Kill a 15pt Marine. In 9th (assuming no points increase) it will be 32pts of Boyz to kill 18pts of Marine. Now, which is the better trade off for Marines? 18 to kill 15 or 32 to kill 18? I'll give you a hint, its not the 9th edition values

    Also, its not a good argument to say "Ohh yeah...umm...well, look at these other horribly over priced, under performing units, orkz will be better than them!" especially since a standard intercessor can beat a standard genestealer in a CC fight

     Xenomancers wrote:
    PLUS this doesn't even come close to the disparity created by introducing...invulnerable save bubbles of 5++. Which greatly increase the durability of orks over marines vs practically any weapon you choose with at least ap -1. IE almost every weapon in the game at this point.


    k, So lets see, a Big mek with KFF can realistically shield 1 full mob of boyz, So thats 240pts of Boyz plus a 60pt HQ unit (cheapest) so 300pts. To kill those 240pts of Boyz backed up by a 60pt HQ you will need 202.5 Bolt Rifle hits (S4-1AP). 202.5 is 135 hits, 45 wounds, 30 failed armor saves for 30 dead boyz.

    202.5 Bolt rifle hits vs a Tac Marine is 135 hits, 67.5 wounds, 33.75 failed armor saves for 16.8 Dead Marines. Which is....drum roll please.....303.75pts of dead Marine. HOORAY 240pts of T5 boyz backed up by 60pts of HQ is 300pts and is MORE durable by 3.75pts than Space Marines! So you are correct Xenos, those boyz are literally 1.25% more durable vs AP-1 than Space Marines. And all it took was all 30 boyz hiding under the Big Mekz bubble. Oh, btw, if those Marines stay in cover...kind of like they do in most competitive games, its only 11.25 dead Marines which is only 202pts :( sad day.

    Oh, and if you do take a Big Mek for a KFF and you want him to actually accomplish something in CC besides being a glorified Nob, you have to use the Big Mek in Mega Armor with KFF which is literally more than 2x the price so the math than swings back in favor of the Marines even if they don't hide in cover like they normally do




    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 19:05:10


    Post by: Xenomancers


    Racerguy180 wrote:
    Xenomancers wrote:

    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Racerguy180 wrote:
    What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

    T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

    Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?

    And......did it not break the setting or are you too fresh-faced? It's also been longer than 20yrs.

    Not sure why it would break the setting that marines were T4 when they should be? Clearly they are tougher than a human being - they are 3x the size.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 19:08:17


    Post by: JNAProductions


     Xenomancers wrote:
    Racerguy180 wrote:
    Xenomancers wrote:

    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Racerguy180 wrote:
    What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

    T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

    Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?

    And......did it not break the setting or are you too fresh-faced? It's also been longer than 20yrs.

    Not sure why it would break the setting that marines were T4 when they should be? Clearly they are tougher than a human being - they are 3x the size.
    A GUO is easily 40X the size of a human, therefore they should have a Toughness of 20 or so, right?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 19:09:33


    Post by: Xenomancers


     vipoid wrote:
    I can't help but think that arguing with Xeno is akin to a game of football where one team pick up the goalposts, start running and never stop.

    At first, the bewildered opponents kick the ball after them, trying to score a goal in spite of the moving goalposts.

    After a while, however, the ball has long since been lost and now the opposing team have been reduced to merely keeping the speeding goalposts in sight.

    I have not lost. Nor I have once changed my arguement. The most convincing argument for orks being T5 is - that "orks should be tougher than marines". Which that is certainly an opinion just not a very good one. A marine is over 1000 lb where an ork is 300lb. If anything the marine should be T5 and the ork T4. Based on simple physics.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     JNAProductions wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:
    Racerguy180 wrote:
    Xenomancers wrote:

    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Racerguy180 wrote:
    What broke the setting was marines going to t4...

    T5 orks are great and am looking forward to purging them with promethium.

    Marines have been T4 for like...more than 20 years right?

    And......did it not break the setting or are you too fresh-faced? It's also been longer than 20yrs.

    Not sure why it would break the setting that marines were T4 when they should be? Clearly they are tougher than a human being - they are 3x the size.
    A GUO is easily 40X the size of a human, therefore they should have a Toughness of 20 or so, right?

    IDK - what is his weight like in comparison to a Land Raider that has T8?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 19:12:05


    Post by: the_scotsman


     Xenomancers wrote:

    You might notice...marines went to 2 wounds when all heavy infantry in the game got wound buffs.


    They DID? INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!

    *aberrants spontaneously get wound buffs*

    *tyranid warriors spontaneously get wound buffs*

    *Wraithguard spontaneously get wound buffs*

    *ogryn spontaneously get wound buffs*

    *CSM spontaneously get wound buffs*

    *Nobz spontaneously get wound buffs*

    *Immortals spontaneously get wound buffs*

    THANK YOU, XENOMANCERS, WE'RE CURED!!!!!!!


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 19:13:08


    Post by: Eldarain


    Probably already said somewhere but the Bits blown off and keep fighting element of Orks would have made more sense as increased wounds.

    Marines should have the toughness/save and Orks should have gotten the extra wounds.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 19:13:12


    Post by: the_scotsman


     Xenomancers wrote:

    I have not lost. Nor I have once changed my arguement. The most convincing argument for orks being T5 is - that "orks should be tougher than marines". Which that is certainly an opinion just not a very good one. A marine is over 1000 lb where an ork is 300lb. If anything the marine should be T5 and the ork T4. Based on simple physics.


    Ah yes, Physics, the thing that 40k is so famously based on.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Eldarain wrote:
    Probably already said somewhere but the Bits blown off and keep fighting element of Orks would have made more sense as increased wounds.

    Marines should have the toughness/save and Orks should have gotten the extra wounds.


    Except that, thank god, certain stat decisions are based around 40k needing to be a game that you can practically play and not be miserable, and Marines being W1 made everyone miserable, and Orks being W2 have historically only ever made everyone miserable.

    What if tracking wound counts on nob bikers, but EVERY ork model? Fantastic, I love it, I'll buy three!


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 19:22:25


    Post by: JNAProductions


    How much of a marines weight is armor (represented by his 3+) and how much is body?

    And how many vital organs does a Marine have?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 19:30:09


    Post by: Xenomancers


     the_scotsman wrote:
     Xenomancers wrote:

    You might notice...marines went to 2 wounds when all heavy infantry in the game got wound buffs.


    They DID? INCREDIBLE!!!!!!!!

    *aberrants spontaneously get wound buffs*

    *tyranid warriors spontaneously get wound buffs*

    *Wraithguard spontaneously get wound buffs*

    *ogryn spontaneously get wound buffs*

    *CSM spontaneously get wound buffs*

    *Nobz spontaneously get wound buffs*

    *Immortals spontaneously get wound buffs*

    THANK YOU, XENOMANCERS, WE'RE CURED!!!!!!!

    WG got 3 wounds Im pretty sure in 8th edd.
    Warriors apparently had 3 wounds to begin with.
    CSM oblitz got more wounds right? Possesed too
    Nob bikes have what? 3 wounds? MAN 3 wounds?
    Paladins went to 3 wounds?
    Terms go to 3 wounds from 1 lol.
    That all happened in 8th.

    I think it is fair to say they fcked up with standard astatres and csm old marines from the start - they made the primaris which were going to replace the old but then they decided not to.

    GW clearly had a philosphy with the game rules to increase wounds on next to anything - your post is a willful misrepresentation of my point and the reality of wounds stat going up on the majority of almost every unit in the game. Forget just heavy infantry. The majority of units in the game saw wounds increasing. AKA intellectual dishonesty. Disgusting. Like I seriously have to argue and waste my time convincing you people of facts.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     JNAProductions wrote:
    How much of a marines weight is armor (represented by his 3+) and how much is body?

    And how many vital organs does a Marine have?

    Keep in mind I've gone with the lower ball estimate. Between 500 and 1000 is a marines base weight without armor - I'll give you 500lb.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 20:44:47


    Post by: catbarf


     Xenomancers wrote:
    I'll give you 500lb.


    So around the same as, or less than, a Boy of roughly the same size.



    Inb4 convoluted explanation for why Marines finally living up to the fluff is a good thing because the tabletop has never done them justice but Orks finally living up to the fluff is bad because reasons.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 21:42:44


    Post by: JNAProductions


    I like how your list of “Units that got more wounds” has five entries (ignoring Warriors since they’ve had three wounds for a long while and didn’t improve in 8th) has three Marine units. Sure, one is Chaos, but still Marine.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 22:57:16


    Post by: Arachnofiend


    I wouldn't really count Obliterators personally, they got a big redesign in terms of what that unit "is" when the new model came out and are a lot more on the heavy side of heavy infantry than they used to be. The only non-marine heavy infantry to have gotten a significant change in statline is the Necron Immortal going to T5, which obviously Xeno is fine with because he plays that army.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 23:14:12


    Post by: pothocboots


    That brings about a silly question.

    Do Necrons having armor saves break the setting?

    Think about it, when you shoot and hit a basic Necron warrior, what gets hit first? That's right, its skin.

    Now sure, its skin might be made of metal, but that's not armor per se, and nominally would be better handled by Toughness.

    In this way Necron Immortals totally make sense as T5, just as long as we fix their armor save to be 7+.

    /s


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 23:14:13


    Post by: Banzaimash


    SemperMortis wrote:
     Banzaimash wrote:

    A 50/50 chance represents this more than enough don't you think? Certainly a bolter is much more likely to put down an ork than a lasgun, and this is not remotely reflected in this new rules change


    To put it bluntly? No. In 4th edition a Marine had 1 shot from his boltgun at 24' range and 2 shots at 12' but only if he stood still that turn. That Marine was 2.5x more expensive than the Ork boy and 300% more durable vs S4 incoming fire. In 9th edition taht Marine has 2 shots from 24 if he stands still and 2 shots from 12 no matter what, he also gets AP on his boltgun depending on what turn it is. That Marine is now only 2.25x More expensive than the Ork boy and is now more than 500% more durable to incoming S4 fire.

    So when you say an Ork boy being able to tank a bolter half the time should be enough, well no. Why? Because GW has decided that Space Marines needed ridiculous levels of buffs so that anyone who wants any hope of competing against them requires buffs to compensate. Now if your argument is purely from a fluff perspective than absolutely. But if we are going to play that game than my Ork boyz should be fielded in mobz of 100 and should cost 1ppm each. I have a sneaking suspicion that players don't actually want a fluffy representation of the battlefield otherwise the board would be flooded turn 1 LOL.

    As far as the Boltguns should be better at killing Orkz than Lasguns, sure. But let me ask you this, Shouldn't an Auto-cannon be better at killing T8 Vehicles than a Heavy Bolter? I can make a hundred similar comparisons in regards to weapons that aren't accurately represented on the battlefield. That has nothing to do with inherent imbalance and more to do with the Toughness/Weapon strength charts we use in the game right now.

     Banzaimash wrote:
    Don't see the need to call marine players entitled, especially when many like myself also collect orks, and other armies too. My main gripe with what you've said is the mentality that everything needs its 'time in the sun', which is a whole hearted endorsement of power creep, as this can only be achieved by constant buffs.Rather than resetting the game to a more reasonable level, we end up with this crescendo of FOTM and codex creep, which is barely tempered if at all by FAQs and minor nerfs. In two additions we'll be seeing 3W guardsmen or something foolish at this rate.


    Well the problem here Banzai is that there are a couple of Marine players on these boards who constantly complain every single time any other faction gets any kind of buffs...actually they complain if any color of Marine that isn't their color gets a buff. And when they have an obviously broken unit, they label any criticism of said unit as players just hating on Marines because they hate Marines or some such nonsense. I have literally witnessed players defending Pre-nerf Aggressors and the new Melta weapons as well as eradicators.

    In regards to "resetting the game"...I wouldn't wish that on anyone. If GW really wants to reset the power balance to a lower level than they need to pull out hte stops and do actual hardcore playtesting and only release the new rules as Index 10th edition. In 7th they tried to "tone down" the power creep by giving Orkz the absolute worst codex in 7th edition, it was so bad that by the end of 7th edition a host of Ork players had given up playing because they stood no chance. Jidmah, among many others did this if I am not mistaken.

    You can't start an edition and than randomly lower the power level for factions without lowering it for all. Hell, in 7th edition I had players offer me 200-400pt handicaps because they wanted to play their faction without purposefully taking the worst units they had .


    I generally agree with your assessment with regards to Toughness and other buffs, I feel it highlights the issue with power creep (for marines as in this example) and a weak ruleset. In terms of a reset, an index system as you describe was definitely more what I had in mind, and I wish more people would root for that than continue to endorse codex creep and FOTM. Finally I appreciate what you're saying about marine players fully, I've seen specific instances of that kind behaviour here and elsewhere, I was simply suggesting one not paint with such a broad brush.


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/22 23:19:15


    Post by: RaptorInMotion


    pothocboots wrote:
    That brings about a silly question.

    Do Necrons having armor saves break the setting?

    Think about it, when you shoot and hit a basic Necron warrior, what gets hit first? That's right, its skin.

    Now sure, its skin might be made of metal, but that's not armor per se, and nominally would be better handled by Toughness.

    In this way Necron Immortals totally make sense as T5, just as long as we fix their armor save to be 7+.

    /s


    From what little ive read of Necron appearances in novels, they sort of act like Glass Cannons that can get back up. Pretty fragile and fairly easy to put down, but its gonna get back up and disintegrate you, so probably best to get out of there!


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/23 00:02:22


    Post by: vipoid


    pothocboots wrote:
    That brings about a silly question.

    Do Necrons having armor saves break the setting?

    Think about it, when you shoot and hit a basic Necron warrior, what gets hit first? That's right, its skin.

    Now sure, its skin might be made of metal, but that's not armor per se, and nominally would be better handled by Toughness.

    In this way Necron Immortals totally make sense as T5, just as long as we fix their armor save to be 7+.

    /s


    Alternate possibility - given that Necrons are effectively walking armour, does their having a toughness characteristic break the setting?


    Will T5 orks break the setting? @ 2021/06/23 00:06:02


    Post by: cody.d.


     RaptorInMotion wrote:

    From what little ive read of Necron appearances in novels, they sort of act like Glass Cannons that can get back up. Pretty fragile and fairly easy to put down, but its gonna get back up and disintegrate you, so probably best to get out of there!


    I always thought that was because they are some of the slowest moving targets you could ask for. A person (or ork) sprinting at you full speed is a hard target to get a head shot on. A necron warrior slowly plodding forward is pretty much just target practice that fires back. And gets back up of course.