Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 17:38:28


Post by: -Guardsman-


I ask because there's some guy in my local Warhammer community who proudly admits to being a scalper, and I swore to myself that I would never play a 40k game with him (unless a tournament pits me against him). But I wonder if this sentiment is actually prevalent, or if some players leave their feelings on such things at the door when it comes to actual gaming.

I'm firmly of the opinion that every local gaming community should come together to ostracize scalpers.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 18:04:37


Post by: porkuslime


Just making sure.. you are talking about someone who buys a LOT of new kits/games and then resells them for higher funds?

(as opposed to someone recasting models or someone who takes the hair from their defeated enemies.. )


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 18:06:31


Post by: -Guardsman-


 porkuslime wrote:
Just making sure.. you are talking about someone who buys a LOT of new kits/games and then resells them for higher funds?

(as opposed to someone recasting models or someone who takes the hair from their defeated enemies.. )

That's right.

Although, come to think of it, I would probably also avoid playing against someone known to scalp his opponents when he wins.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 18:26:04


Post by: Lammia


In your example, I wouldn't play with them.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 19:12:14


Post by: oni


I suppose there's a threshold.

If I buy two of something to effectively make my $$$ back by selling one... is that still worth being ostracized?


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 19:24:31


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 oni wrote:
I suppose there's a threshold.

If I buy two of something to effectively make my $$$ back by selling one... is that still worth being ostracized?


For the guy who had to pay double for the item because the store was suddenly out of stock, yes. For everyone who doesn’t want to end up in the same position as that guy, probably also yes.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 19:39:02


Post by: Polonius


I try to focus my "I won't play this guy" threshold solely on how they act during our games. Scalping is also at worst a selfish act, not really morally reprehensible. The nature of limited production runs means that some people end up with an item and others don't, and pure price isn't any better or worse a way to determine who gets what than any other.



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 19:39:52


Post by: Brometheus


I have missed out on boxes because of folks like the one you describe purchasing tons to resell at a higher price.

Still, I can say that it wouldn't affect my attitude towards them as a player. If I can have a good 40k game with them, I wouldn't care.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 20:12:03


Post by: tauist


I don't see anything wrong with scalping. It gives everyone a chance to aquire rare and out of stock items. You really think you missed out on an item because of a scalper huh? That's snowflake thinking at its finest

Don't hate the scalper, hate the superficial scarcity and FOMO marketing the manufacturers push on us.



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 20:14:08


Post by: Nevelon


I wouldn’t set up a game, or go out of my way to play them. If I was at the FLGS looking for a pickup game and they were the only option, I’d probably play.

Assuming I didn’t have any other reasons to avoid games with them and they were otherwise a reasonable person. If they started bragging about scalping, I’d let them know my feelings on the subject, but keep it polite.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 20:59:31


Post by: -Guardsman-


 tauist wrote:
You really think you missed out on an item because of a scalper huh? That's snowflake thinking at its finest

I struggle to understand your "snowflake thinking" reasoning. If you miss out on a hot new item, then yes, there's in fact a fairly decent chance that it's because of a scalper. Now, that one scalper did not purposefully set out to piss you off, specifically, but at the end of the day, it's still scalpers' collective fault that you couldn't get the model you wanted.

I'm going to hate both the scalper and the company that generates artificial scarcity, thank you very much. This "don't hate the player, hate the game" argument is only ever used by people who have no interest whatsoever in changing the game. If the rules and systems in place are not enough to prevent assh0les from ruining everything, then a community has a right and perhaps even a duty to enforce additional ones (such as ostracizing people who show no consideration for others).


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 21:01:36


Post by: PaddyMick


Sure i'd play him. No ones perfect.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 21:26:07


Post by: Overread


Scalping comes in various forms. There's the guy who buys one or two boxes to upsell for a few £ more at one end to the guy who buys 20-40-100 boxes and then marks up the price and even inflates the secondhand price on ebay and such by volume.


Both are scalpers. One is so small time that it hardly impacts anything and a small price increase isn't really hurting the market much. IT hurts in volume if loads and loads of people did it on their own.

The other is having a real meaningful impact all on their own.




In the end I'd likely play the first kind, its not really that bad. Though if they are a bit of a boastful pain about it I might not play them. But then that's going into their attitude and behaviour which is likely going to be more htan just boasting about scalping a single box.

The other guy I'd possibly not play because their deliberate action is harming the hobby. Even if they are a really nice person to play against their behaviour outside of the game is harming the environment for others; plsu scalping that much chances are its impacting local supplies so chances are it could even be hindering local people getting stuff.




In the end how you behave and conduct yourself both in and outside of the game WILL influence who chooses to play you. You can be perfect in game, but if outside you have undesirable behaviour or actions then people will refuse games.



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 21:38:40


Post by: BuFFo


-Guardsman- wrote:
I ask because there's some guy in my local Warhammer community who proudly admits to being a scalper, and I swore to myself that I would never play a 40k game with him (unless a tournament pits me against him). But I wonder if this sentiment is actually prevalent, or if some players leave their feelings on such things at the door when it comes to actual gaming.

I'm firmly of the opinion that every local gaming community should come together to ostracize scalpers.


I'm a scalper. Everyone here is. Everyone here has bought something, then at some point, sold it for profit. Nothing immoral about that.

If you ostracize people who sell their property, there will be no one around.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 22:30:27


Post by: chromedog


I don't think I've ever resold something with a mark-UP.

It's usually sold for what I paid for it, if not less.
If I bought something for $X back in 200x and it's the same kit still available for $2X+, but I no longer need it, I'll happily let it go for that <= $X amount.

3 original rhino models that someone wants for a retro 40k project? $30aud and they are yours (what I paid retail for them when they were released).

Hell, I resold a legit resin FW valkyrie for $50aud because I just wanted to be rid of it - that was less than half price. (This thing made a mockery of FW and their 'QC' protocols. EVERY part was warped on multiple axes. Not just 'bent' but some were twisted. This isn't on the resin, it's on the caster pulling the casts before they were cured sufficiently.). And that was after back and forth about defective or broken in transit parts (ZERO 'voidfill' in the box. Pieces were allowed to rattle around and bash into each other. Yes, it came with actual FW paperwork, too).


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 23:35:51


Post by: solkan


On the one hand, "scalping" doesn't serve any useful purpose. Partly because no one calls "I bought something at an event and resold it outside of the event at minimal markup" scalping.

Scalpers deserve to waste their time and money acquiring a product that no one is willing to pay more than MSRP for.

People who buy up a limited resource and try to sell it off at a higher price, and the people who enable them by paying that higher price, are a degenerate system if the item in question is a luxury good. Bragging about being part of a degenerate system falls under "acting like a jerk", and usually people manage to display additional "acting like a jerk" behaviors coincidental to those behaviors.



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/17 23:50:13


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Would you play with a known [supporter of a political party you disagree with]?

Would you play with a known [fan of a TV show you don't like]?

Would you play with [someone who likes avocado]?

Would you play with a known [fan of ska music]?

When does it end?



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 00:46:38


Post by: insaniak


-Guardsman- wrote:

I'm going to hate both the scalper and the company that generates artificial scarcity, thank you very much..

While you're there, you might as well also hate the person who is willing to buy from a scalper, since ultimately they are the reason the scalper does what they do. As much as the problem was born from artificial scarcity, if people refused to pay twice the original retail price for something they don't actually need, the scalper wouldn't have a business.

Although I strongly suspect that people overestimate how much impact the scalpers actually have on stock availability. If there is enough demand for a product to crash the company's website on release day, a couple of dozen copies winding up on eBay were far less likely to affect your chances of buying it than the several thousand other people trying to buy it at the same time as you. The lion's share of the blame should surely be on the company that keeps deliberately under-producing to fuel release-day demand.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 01:06:04


Post by: posermcbogus


 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Would you play with a known [fan of ska music]?



nervously tries to two step in a non-noticeable way
Please, guys, could you move my ultramarine for me? I can't...
PICK IT UP PICK IT UP

Why are we acting like scalping is some kind of wicked, cardinal sin?
"would you play with a... s-s-scalper???" A KNOWN scalper? Are there lists of scalpers out there? A scalper register? Are we gonna start outing people as scalpers?
yo, check this guy's ebay, I think he's charging slightly more than the usual overinflated price for a limited edition pewter space marine sgt. Do you think he should be on the list???
If they're an alright person to hang out with, what do I care how they make rent? It's hardly slinging or pimping or robbery. Like, it's a bit anti-community, but I think certain members of the community are confusing the feelings of being able to get things they want with being able to get actual necessities. Being priced out is annoying - check out the prices in Japan, or my frequent rants about that, very VERY much understand the feeling there - but it's hardly the end of the world.

The only reason scalping is such a lucrative market is because
Spoiler:
(I got a whole post Rule 1'd for this word I guess earlier this week so I'm gonna try going with)
cetaceans
Spoiler:
(is this a safe one?)
will buy it up.
Scalping is only kind of a lame thing to do, but it's the buyers willing to fork out MAD money that makes them able to mark stuff up so much, and it pushes out the more casual/less ludicrously rich fan (and gives GW the idea that they can keep jacking up prices and most people will keep biting) which sucks, and isn't great, but the stuff being scalped is rarely the meat and potatoes of actually getting into in the game at an entry level - like a box of customizable
Spoiler:
multipart
troops.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 03:54:04


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 BuFFo wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:
I ask because there's some guy in my local Warhammer community who proudly admits to being a scalper, and I swore to myself that I would never play a 40k game with him (unless a tournament pits me against him). But I wonder if this sentiment is actually prevalent, or if some players leave their feelings on such things at the door when it comes to actual gaming.

I'm firmly of the opinion that every local gaming community should come together to ostracize scalpers.


I'm a scalper. Everyone here is. Everyone here has bought something, then at some point, sold it for profit. Nothing immoral about that.

If you ostracize people who sell their property, there will be no one around.


Nope. I’ve even sold my rare, OOP metal GW minis for the cost it took to replace them with finecast versions.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Would you play with a known [supporter of a political party you disagree with]?

Would you play with a known [fan of a TV show you don't like]?

Would you play with [someone who likes avocado]?

Would you play with a known [fan of ska music]?

When does it end?



Just play with people you’d actually want to spend time with.

Turn no one away? Makes gaming sound like dirty truck-bar sex.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 05:39:06


Post by: Lammia


 BuFFo wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:
I ask because there's some guy in my local Warhammer community who proudly admits to being a scalper, and I swore to myself that I would never play a 40k game with him (unless a tournament pits me against him). But I wonder if this sentiment is actually prevalent, or if some players leave their feelings on such things at the door when it comes to actual gaming.

I'm firmly of the opinion that every local gaming community should come together to ostracize scalpers.


I'm a scalper. Everyone here is. Everyone here has bought something, then at some point, sold it for profit. Nothing immoral about that.

If you ostracize people who sell their property, there will be no one around.
A scalper is a very specfic thing, not just buying and selling.

But enjoy your strawman, I guess.
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Would you play with a known [supporter of a political party you disagree with]?

Would you play with a known [fan of a TV show you don't like]?

Would you play with [someone who likes avocado]?

Would you play with a known [fan of ska music]?

When does it end?

Oh no! Not the dreaded slippery slop!

Does this political party support my right to exist and thrive in the world? No? Then excuse me for not playing with their member/supporter.

Why don't I like this TV show? What kind of fan are they?

How much do they like Avocado?

What is Ska music? How much of a fan are they?

People make these judgements all the time, the sky hasn't fallen in and some of us have learnt that we don't need to spend our free time with people we don't like.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 06:04:13


Post by: Duskweaver


I guess I have to pick 'Other'.

I don't have a problem with scalpers and find the hypocritical moral outrage expressed towards them pretty hilarious. I generally don't blame individuals for taking advantage of the rules of the system they find themselves in when they've had no role in creating that system. Scalping exists because we live in a capitalist system and because of GW's policy of creating artificial scarcity of certain high-demand products. The scalpers didn't create that situation, they're just taking advantage of it to make a buck, which is exactly what our socio-economic system has trained them to do.

But I can't go with the first response in your poll, because there are certainly some outside-the-gaming-room behaviours that would cause me to refuse to play with a person, or indeed to associate with them at all.

EDIT: I don't think you're a bad person or anything for refusing to play with scalpers. But if you'd happily play a game with Kevin Rountree, then I sure as heck think you're a ridiculous hypocrite. ('You' is meant in the general sense here, not directed at a specific person.)


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 06:19:42


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Lammia wrote:
Oh no! Not the dreaded slippery slop!
I didn't make a slippery slope argument. It's more reductio ad absurdum. Because the entire concept of this thread is absurd.

Lammia wrote:
... the sky hasn't fallen in...
No one said it had. Now who's the one making strawman arguments.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 06:44:15


Post by: Lammia


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Oh no! Not the dreaded slippery slop!
I didn't make a slippery slope argument. It's more reductio ad absurdum. Because the entire concept of this thread is absurd.
except, it's not.


Lammia wrote:
... the sky hasn't fallen in...
No one said it had. Now who's the one making strawman arguments.
Given the weight being carried by those elipses, I'm going to go with you.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 06:51:38


Post by: insaniak


Play nice, or move on. People are welcome to different opinions. Keep it civil, folks.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 07:25:30


Post by: stroller


Wonders how a scalper gets "known". How DOES Charlie get hold of 50 copies of something on or before day 1 anyway, without the complicity of the store manager?

If they're a reasonable human, sure. why not? Don't approve of scalping (jealousy? they got there first?) but it's not a crime.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 07:45:15


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Lammia wrote:
Given the weight being carried by those elipses, I'm going to go with you.
You're really taking this topic seriously, aren't you? Hot damn...

Grow a little perspective: They're not sex offenders. They're not something anyone needs to know about beforehand. It's not like there's a register for "scalpers". They are not a group that's worth worrying about. They're not even a group!

The reason I picked a few truly silly examples (liking avocado, listening to ska music) is because they are nonsense reasons not to play someone. They're the kind of things that you would never even consider. Unless they're actually taking people's scalps, I fail to see how this would ever come up.

Finally, and without delving into the depths of relative privation, within this context there are far worse things than scalpers: Scammers!

Now they should be on a list, a various online buy'n'sell groups do make a habit of that. They're far more serious than a dude selling a mini for more than he paid. I certainly wouldn't want to play with a known scammer.





Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 07:49:59


Post by: Lammia


stroller wrote:
Wonders how a scalper gets "known". How DOES Charlie get hold of 50 copies of something on or before day 1 anyway, without the complicity of the store manager?

If they're a reasonable human, sure. why not? Don't approve of scalping (jealousy? they got there first?) but it's not a crime.
Well, in this example, they openly claim it...


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 07:58:25


Post by: Illumini


While scalping does not bother me too much, your our own argument can be taken the other way too.

Would you play with a known [vocal white suprematist]?

It is not a reductio ad absurdum argument in the way you seem to imply it is.





Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 08:08:17


Post by: Cronch


Scalpers deserve all the worst in life, so I'd play them


Seriously though, no, they can play with their stock.
Also i stand by my statement that scalpers deserve nothing good to ever happen to them.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 08:11:09


Post by: ScarletRose


Lammia wrote:
stroller wrote:
Wonders how a scalper gets "known". How DOES Charlie get hold of 50 copies of something on or before day 1 anyway, without the complicity of the store manager?

If they're a reasonable human, sure. why not? Don't approve of scalping (jealousy? they got there first?) but it's not a crime.
Well, in this example, they openly claim it...


Yeah, the bragging is definitely an aggravating factor in this. If it was a side activity I came across someone doing there might be more leeway, but the kind of person who brags about being a gakky person is not the kind of person I want to game with.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 08:22:06


Post by: Slipspace


Someone being a scalper isn't going to stop me playing against them. What might, is if they're a donkey-cave about it, but then it's more about the person's attitude/personality than their actions.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 10:06:34


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


would folk who wouldn't play a scalper play at a store that sells some second hand stuff a higher than the original retail price?

and if you would how abo if he second hand stuff is recent as opposed to ancient (eg a LE or something only Just out of production


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 10:13:08


Post by: Not Online!!!


I mean if he brags arround , makes collectors misserable, i don't care, he is an ass and i have a longstanding rule of "i don't play with asses".


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 10:15:38


Post by: Pacific


Not Online!!! wrote:
I mean if he brags arround , makes collectors misserable, i don't care, he is an ass and i have a longstanding rule of "i don't play with asses".


Yeah that for me is the important part. If someone brags about being an arse, they probably wouldn't be much fun to play against? You have to enjoy the games you play, I don't have as much time as I would like to play against people I get along with let alone someone like that?


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 11:26:09


Post by: Lammia


 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
would folk who wouldn't play a scalper play at a store that sells some second hand stuff a higher than the original retail price?

and if you would how abo if he second hand stuff is recent as opposed to ancient (eg a LE or something only Just out of production
It depends. If the're selling sprues for limited, sold out kits the answer is no. If it's bits or overly popular kits then I only have a problem with their pricing structure.

I also wouldn't buy/play around discontinued sprues or boxes. Old models are ok though.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 13:11:51


Post by: tauist


 insaniak wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:

I'm going to hate both the scalper and the company that generates artificial scarcity, thank you very much..

While you're there, you might as well also hate the person who is willing to buy from a scalper, since ultimately they are the reason the scalper does what they do. As much as the problem was born from artificial scarcity, if people refused to pay twice the original retail price for something they don't actually need, the scalper wouldn't have a business.

Although I strongly suspect that people overestimate how much impact the scalpers actually have on stock availability. If there is enough demand for a product to crash the company's website on release day, a couple of dozen copies winding up on eBay were far less likely to affect your chances of buying it than the several thousand other people trying to buy it at the same time as you. The lion's share of the blame should surely be on the company that keeps deliberately under-producing to fuel release-day demand.


Totally agree with this. I'm not at all convinced that anyone's specific copy of an item was sold out because someone bought 2000 copies a second before they did. That sort of thinking is delusional.

But while we're on the topic of "would you play against....?" I can say that I never play against randos. Therefore I suppose I should have answered "No", because I dont know any scalpers. But am grateful for being able to buy unobtanium items, and have done so a few times, paying through the nose, but I knew what I was getting into.



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 13:20:10


Post by: -Guardsman-


 Overread wrote:
Scalping comes in various forms. There's the guy who buys one or two boxes to upsell for a few £ more at one end to the guy who buys 20-40-100 boxes and then marks up the price and even inflates the secondhand price on ebay and such by volume.

Both are scalpers. One is so small time that it hardly impacts anything and a small price increase isn't really hurting the market much. IT hurts in volume if loads and loads of people did it on their own.

The other is having a real meaningful impact all on their own.

Yeah, I'm talking more about the latter. Those who spend in the 4-5 figures at every new release and essentially run their own under-the-table game store.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 13:25:37


Post by: jaredb


For me, it depends on the person, not what they do.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 14:01:38


Post by: Skinnereal


 BuFFo wrote:
I'm a scalper. Everyone here is. Everyone here has bought something, then at some point, sold it for profit. Nothing immoral about that.

If you ostracize people who sell their property, there will be no one around.
No. Really no.
I don't sell anything past what I paid. If you buy something and add value at some level, you justify the profit.

Shops exist to sell original stock, and they add a mark-up to earn a living.
Scalpers who buy purely to add their own overhead are blight on the hobby, and others like it. Why don't they set up a company, and buy from suppliers, making even more profit? They're too lazy.

If you think everyone is a scalper, why do you think there is such reaction to threads like this?


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 14:22:26


Post by: grahamdbailey


I wouldn't care, unless, of course, they were an unpleasant person to game against, then no. To be fair, if they're the big-mouth-braggart type, as you seem to indicate, then no; I'd not (usually) play against them, but only because I don't like that kind of person, not because they're a scalper.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 15:51:28


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Illumini wrote:
While scalping does not bother me too much, your our own argument can be taken the other way too.

Would you play with a known [vocal white suprematist]?
I think if you're making comparisons between scalpers and racists, then we've definitely hit "absurd".


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 16:41:04


Post by: Rihgu


Lotta scalpers showing themselves in this thread. Pretty cool!


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/18 21:57:04


Post by: BuFFo


 Skinnereal wrote:
 BuFFo wrote:
I'm a scalper. Everyone here is. Everyone here has bought something, then at some point, sold it for profit. Nothing immoral about that.

If you ostracize people who sell their property, there will be no one around.
No. Really no.
I don't sell anything past what I paid. If you buy something and add value at some level, you justify the profit.

Shops exist to sell original stock, and they add a mark-up to earn a living.
Scalpers who buy purely to add their own overhead are blight on the hobby, and others like it. Why don't they set up a company, and buy from suppliers, making even more profit? They're too lazy.

If you think everyone is a scalper, why do you think there is such reaction to threads like this?


Because people, most people, don't actually understand how property works, or what ownership is.

If I buy 100 boxes of a new release, that's an exchange of property between me and GW. GW sells me something, and it's mine.

If I want to sell those 100 boxes for a profit, that is, once again, between me and the buyer. It's no one else's business.

I can look at ebay, bartertown, etc.. and see thousands of people selling models they bought 30 years ago or 3 days ago. It's their property, and through negotiation, a price is set that both people agree to, and it's no one else's business. If you want to sell a figure, old or new, for 1 dollar or 1 billion, and you find a buyer, great! Moral actions are wonderful! Trade is great! The price set is between you and the buyer, and no one else.

Too many collectivists subjectively rationalize some floating abstraction, such as "the hobby", and drop context and apply it to property. Basically, many people FEEL they own "the hobby" or have some mystical ownership to figures sitting on a shelf that aren't their property. Unless you trade with another person who owns the figure, you don't own their property.

I proudly buy figures new, and then sell whatever I want to other people who voluntarily agree to buy the items so we both can profit.

I mean, GW takes 2 dollars worth of materials ( and labor, IP, etc) and makes a figure, and sells it to my local gaming store owner for 20 bucks. The store owner then charges me 40. I buy it at 40, and charge someone 60. And that person can sell it for 5 million for all I care. It's none of my business, and I hope they profit in life!


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 04:01:17


Post by: Lammia


Pryamid schemes are illegal


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 04:26:16


Post by: Shadowbrand


I guess it depends if they're insufferable or not. It's a bias but I feel like most scalpers would probably not be the kind of person i'd want at my table.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 08:19:13


Post by: Olthannon


I think this goes beyond whether or not they are a scalper. This is just are they a prick or not? Sounds like if they are bragging about it as you used in your example, then they do indeed fall into the aforementioned category. In which case its fair enough to say I don't want to play with that person.

As Shadowbrand says above, your immediate bias of a scalper is that yeah they are probably a prick. Possibly not always the case but maybe 80:20. I mean remember all those people at the start of covid who bought up anti bacterial gel or whatever so that other people couldn't buy it and tried to sell it on for profit.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 10:31:06


Post by: Sim-Life


Yes. I don't really care, if it's okay when GW over-charges you and takes advantage of planned scarcity how is it any different from a scalper doing the same?


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 10:43:06


Post by: SamusDrake


-Guardsman- wrote:
I ask because there's some guy in my local Warhammer community who proudly admits to being a scalper, and I swore to myself that I would never play a 40k game with him (unless a tournament pits me against him). But I wonder if this sentiment is actually prevalent, or if some players leave their feelings on such things at the door when it comes to actual gaming.

I'm firmly of the opinion that every local gaming community should come together to ostracize scalpers.


I voted "other" as I don't play in clubs or tournaments. For me its just a casual hobby at home.

There is something to be said for "how far it goes". While reselling hobby luxeries seems fairly harmless to me, I had thought about it this way; what if it weren't just hobby items? What if this guy was also bragging about selling medical products in such a fashion, and if those products were critical supplies in very short demand?

With that much pondering( probably not enough ), I think my answer to them might be "Son, when you change your greedy ways then maybe we'll see about having that game."


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 10:56:40


Post by: Overread


I think the key difference is that people respect that GW profits from the sales, but that they are a key manufacturer of the product itself. Without them profiting from the sales they wouldn't make the game and products to start with.

Similarly the local retailer is liked because they bring the product to the local area from the manufacturer. Their shop not only helps provide physical sale of products; but it also might well support local clubs and local recruitment of new customers - ergo gamers.


Ergo whilst both are marking up the price above base production costs - ergo they are profiting - they also bring direct benefits to the customer.



A scalper, however, isn't doing any of that. They are buying a product and selling it purely for the profit. There's no net gain for the consumer in having a scalper. It's an un-needed middleman that isn't facilitating the customer getting the product; nor aiding local market growth.

They are purely intercepting consumer products and marking up the price because they can.




That's why people are "anti-scalper". The scalper isn't helping the consumer, the market, the product, the industry or the hobby. Even if they are part of the community themselves and spend their excess profits on the hobby its not actually helping because those excess profits are purely generated from the hobby money of other customers in the first place.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 11:37:29


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 BuFFo wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:
I ask because there's some guy in my local Warhammer community who proudly admits to being a scalper, and I swore to myself that I would never play a 40k game with him (unless a tournament pits me against him). But I wonder if this sentiment is actually prevalent, or if some players leave their feelings on such things at the door when it comes to actual gaming.

I'm firmly of the opinion that every local gaming community should come together to ostracize scalpers.


I'm a scalper. Everyone here is. Everyone here has bought something, then at some point, sold it for profit.


Speak for yourself. Indeed I’ve got a pretty successful trading group going. Just been to the post office sending goodies to the good, so they don’t have to deal with the greedy.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 11:51:34


Post by: Cronch


I don't believe I've ever sold any of my figures for any sort of profit. Usually I don't even break even, I only sell what I'm bored with ("no longer sparks joy" if you want) to free up mental and physical space.
Scalpers, not to be mistaken with normal businesses, are a blight that is actively harmful to the community as they form bottlenecks of goods . Their existence adds nothing of substance to the community, they do not offer any extra services to warrant their extortionist prices.

In general, they deserve to wake up with their cat's vomit in their slippers every day of their lives.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 12:58:20


Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin


I mean I've had the fortune of buying something ten to twenty years ago, and then due to its natural rarity its made me some money when I let it go years later because its no longer of any use to me. That's not scalping which I get the impression some might be mistaking it for.
I mean congrats to anyone selling old Blood Bowl models or other items hugely sought over for what you paid for it (hopefully adding inflation) but that doesn't really demonize anyone else who lets the ebay gods decide.


However preordering twenty of a limited product because you can flip it for double its value the week of release is in my mind a scummy practice and would be scalping.

I can see why some people in politics have raised it as an issue regarding recent trends such as the PS5 and Xbox Series X ongoing shenanigans and its effect on the average consumer. Not that I expect anything to change.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 13:03:28


Post by: Overread


 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

I can see why some people in politics have raised it as an issue regarding recent trends such as the PS5 and Xbox Series X ongoing shenanigans and its effect on the average consumer. Not that I expect anything to change.


It's been a slowly boiling issue for a while. The Pandemic basically had a lot of people out of work and some decided that flipping high priced collectors or limited edition or limited production goods, was a good way to make some quick cash. Esp when the pandemic started making a lot of things harder to get simply by a supply and demand issue so that it wasn't just collectors items that were getting hit.

In some markets, eg sports tickets, its been an issue for decades that has steadily got worse. I recall some of the official sports/music event ticket firms would sell out of tickets in seconds when they went live; with a large number then being resold (scalped) on the company's own secondhand trading website.


I think that the Pandemic has finally made governments wake up that the internet is making it much much easier for scalping to take place. For all our cries 40K actually has very little of an issue compared to some markets where sometimes scalper prices are the only way to get things unless your die hard lucky to get in early.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 13:19:10


Post by: warhead01


-Guardsman- wrote:
I ask because there's some guy in my local Warhammer community who proudly admits to being a scalper, and I swore to myself that I would never play a 40k game with him (unless a tournament pits me against him). But I wonder if this sentiment is actually prevalent, or if some players leave their feelings on such things at the door when it comes to actual gaming.

I'm firmly of the opinion that every local gaming community should come together to ostracize scalpers.


In your own opening post you've decided you would still play against them. Why wouldn't you just refuse to play or quit or just not go to an event this known scalper is also attending.
If you feel that strongly about it then hold to your convictions and make no exceptions.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 13:30:44


Post by: Cronch


 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
I mean I've had the fortune of buying something ten to twenty years ago, and then due to its natural rarity its made me some money when I let it go years later because its no longer of any use to me. That's not scalping which I get the impression some might be mistaking it for.
I mean congrats to anyone selling old Blood Bowl models or other items hugely sought over for what you paid for it (hopefully adding inflation) but that doesn't really demonize anyone else who lets the ebay gods decide.

Monetizing nostalgia is not scalping for sure. Jim Sterling has a good video on why it's stupid and bad, but it's another subject altogether.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 13:43:20


Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin


Cronch wrote:

Monetizing nostalgia is not scalping for sure. Jim Sterling has a good video on why it's stupid and bad, but it's another subject altogether.


Aye to be fair I get that, trying to track down some old epic Space Marines to put on my titan bases is all but abandoned at the mo due to the fact most have been brought up by resellers who have put a premium on them that has made them way too expensive for scatter terrain options.

However I'd still send my own treasures for a profit as at least 90% of the stuff I have sold over of the years has been for well under what I paid, so I'll take those bonus sales when I actually make some money were I can, still not talking a fortune, but the hobby budget needs all the help it can get.

Definitely damned if you do, damned if you don't.



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 20:21:13


Post by: Andykp


I buy big box sets like the Christmas army boxes and keep bits and sell the loss. Rarely make money on them, often just break even but get stuff I want. I have done it with limited run boxes but only when I want bits of it. Never Buy a box to sell that I don’t want at all. Does that make me a bad person. I get a kit or two I want, everyone else gets market price other kits. With the marine Xmas a while ago I kept the repulsor and sold the marines. They sold for less than a new box of them. I got a repulsor free but had to list and post all the other stuff. Very rare you get something that is genuinely limited even rarer that you should sell stuff for more than they are worth. Seems to be an odd thing to exclude someone for. As someone with limited funds it makes the hobby affordable.

I make more money buying limited models and selling them painted. That’s where the profit is. For example, selling ghaz on unbuilt the going rate was around £45. I sold mine painted for £125.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/19 23:42:20


Post by: Lammia


Andykp wrote:
I buy big box sets like the Christmas army boxes and keep bits and sell the loss. Rarely make money on them, often just break even but get stuff I want. I have done it with limited run boxes but only when I want bits of it. Never Buy a box to sell that I don’t want at all. Does that make me a bad person. I get a kit or two I want, everyone else gets market price other kits. With the marine Xmas a while ago I kept the repulsor and sold the marines. They sold for less than a new box of them. I got a repulsor free but had to list and post all the other stuff. Very rare you get something that is genuinely limited even rarer that you should sell stuff for more than they are worth. Seems to be an odd thing to exclude someone for. As someone with limited funds it makes the hobby affordable.

I make more money buying limited models and selling them painted. That’s where the profit is. For example, selling ghaz on unbuilt the going rate was around £45. I sold mine painted for £125.
See, buying a kit because you want part of it and reselling what you don't want is fine. Good even, everyone gets the models they want.

It's when you buy a limited kit up with the intent of upselling the whole thing that it becomes a problem.

The gain on that Ghaz is surprising, but you added time and effort in painting it. So you earnt it.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/20 16:57:55


Post by: Andykp


Lammia wrote:
Andykp wrote:
I buy big box sets like the Christmas army boxes and keep bits and sell the loss. Rarely make money on them, often just break even but get stuff I want. I have done it with limited run boxes but only when I want bits of it. Never Buy a box to sell that I don’t want at all. Does that make me a bad person. I get a kit or two I want, everyone else gets market price other kits. With the marine Xmas a while ago I kept the repulsor and sold the marines. They sold for less than a new box of them. I got a repulsor free but had to list and post all the other stuff. Very rare you get something that is genuinely limited even rarer that you should sell stuff for more than they are worth. Seems to be an odd thing to exclude someone for. As someone with limited funds it makes the hobby affordable.

I make more money buying limited models and selling them painted. That’s where the profit is. For example, selling ghaz on unbuilt the going rate was around £45. I sold mine painted for £125.
See, buying a kit because you want part of it and reselling what you don't want is fine. Good even, everyone gets the models they want.

It's when you buy a limited kit up with the intent of upselling the whole thing that it becomes a problem.

The gain on that Ghaz is surprising, but you added time and effort in painting it. So you earnt it.


Cheers. That’s my thoughts. I don’t harm anyone, in fact I sell kits off at reduced price to folk. The painting side of it I do sometimes buy a kit just to paint and sell, but not limited ones and just ones I really want to paint but don’t have need for in any of my armies. Still surprises me how much people will pay for a half decently painted model. I don’t knock them out cheap and sell them as “pro painted”. That stuff is worse than scalpers. I paint them well and with care and love then sell them on and am honest about it all.

Some stuff is crazy prices. I wanted 3 more cultists of the abyss, so bought a box and sold the rest off as single models and made more on them than the cost of the box x2. Madness.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/20 17:20:18


Post by: SamusDrake


Andykp wrote:
I buy big box sets like the Christmas army boxes and keep bits and sell the loss. Rarely make money on them, often just break even but get stuff I want. I have done it with limited run boxes but only when I want bits of it. Never Buy a box to sell that I don’t want at all. Does that make me a bad person. I get a kit or two I want, everyone else gets market price other kits. With the marine Xmas a while ago I kept the repulsor and sold the marines. They sold for less than a new box of them. I got a repulsor free but had to list and post all the other stuff. Very rare you get something that is genuinely limited even rarer that you should sell stuff for more than they are worth. Seems to be an odd thing to exclude someone for. As someone with limited funds it makes the hobby affordable.

I make more money buying limited models and selling them painted. That’s where the profit is. For example, selling ghaz on unbuilt the going rate was around £45. I sold mine painted for £125.


To put it into perspective, this is a scalper; they walk into a shop and buy up all the SNES minis they have in stock for £70 each and then re-sells them on Ebay for £200 each...

"I'll take all of them"

...there are a lot of downsides for the retailer if they let this happen and it comes in the form of complaints that take up time( "why didn't you order in enough stock?" ) and sometimes goodwill has to be dished out, and loss of sales on other lines; "might as well pick up bread & milk while I'm here." Applying this to a Warhammer store - even the online store - you might add a White Dwarf or a painting handle to your purchase of Dominion. If a scalper walked in and purchased all 10 copies of Dominion in stock then that store loses out on those additional potential sales and are going to face a backlash from the other 9 customers who are genuinely there for a single copy or two.

My friend, in contrast you are merely selling on what you don't want from a kit and making a bit of money in the process. In a way you are are doing others a service...

Last year I purchased a copy of Blackstone Fortress from Wayland games, but it was missing the exploration deck. Dealing with the non-GW retailer was going to be nothing but hassle, but because someone was selling off contents of their copy of BSF on EBay, I was able to purchase a replacement deck for £3 which was worth it for the time and hassle it saved me in dealing with either Wayland or GW, which might have meant sending my copy back even though I'd already assembled the models...

As for Ghaz you have added value to that model in the form of a service, as you're including not only materials but also time and effort.

In a nutshell, I'd be happy to have a game with you!


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 07:54:19


Post by: Dolnikan


I honestly don't care because these scalpers are only the tiniest part of the market. If it's about being able to get things, I think that people getting two boxes just for themselves already is more of a problem.

But what really is the issue of course is GW's gross underproduction and poor communications. I was for instance going to get the Cursed City box at some point, which would have been my first GW purchase in over a year. It however wasn't available when I looked for it, so that was a bit of a shame.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 09:08:06


Post by: General Kroll


I don’t approve of scalping, but so long as they don’t play the game like a dick then I’d play them.



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 11:05:22


Post by: Ketara


Scalping is just raw capitalism. You buy low, sell high. Examples everywhere. E.g.

I saw a kickstarter the other day for a lightbox. Raised some thousands of pounds. Except the product they're selling is one already available in bulk from China, they just took some swish photos of it, and marked up the price to quadruple what it costs on Amazon. The people who bought it will get exactly what they paid for. They're just paying more because they couldn't be bothered to do the five minutes of googling to realise they could buy it already elsewhere for less.

I had a friend who used to jump on a plane to Japan. Brought back loads of anime stuff in bulging suitcases, set up a table at London Expo. Sold it all for six times what they paid for it.

There's a shop on a nearby high street. The lady wanders around antique shops, craft fairs, and the internet to buy the kind of tut which is attractive to upper-middle class ladies with money and not too many worries (decorations made from driftwood, brass candle holders, throw cushions with sequin designs, etc). She buys it, then takes it back to her shop and quadruples the price.

My mother sells on ebay. She has a list of brands she knows are good (Joules, FatFace, etc), and waits until they have their seasonal clearing out sale on their own sites or Amazon. She then nabs a few hundred pounds of merchandise at a low price. Then relists on ebay at the original price two weeks later, because somebody will pay that for it at some point.


All these people are making a buck. None of them are 'adding value' beyond rounding up the stock and putting it somewhere more visible. It's not morally reprehensible, it's just capitalism. I'm here to play games with people, not sieve through their lives looking for a reason to be offended by their existence. Anyone who'd put it in the same automatic 'do not interact with because they disgust me' category as scamming, murder, far right extremism and so on? I'd find them far more intolerable to play against, because they'd be a morally self-righteous arsehole and probably end up judging me for something equally fatuous.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 11:17:03


Post by: Blackie


If playing against him is fun why not? To be honest I've never been interested in pre orders, starters, limited boxes, etc... so I really don't give a damn about scalpers .


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 11:30:22


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Ketara wrote:
None of them are 'adding value' beyond rounding up the stock and putting it somewhere more visible.

I think this is fundamentally different to scalping, and I would say they are adding a value, more convenient/more visible is a value. With the possible exception of that Kickstarter, but those sorts of sites are full of predators.
Scalpers on the other hand are different. They're rounding up the stock and putting it somewhere less visible.
I do think scalping is a purely parasitic endeavour.
One can argue capitalism is built around the concept of parasitic value, but at least lube up before you feth me, y'know?


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 12:24:53


Post by: Ketara


 kirotheavenger wrote:

I think this is fundamentally different to scalping, and I would say they are adding a value, more convenient/more visible is a value.


Are they? My mother is literally taking product off the manufacturer's website at a cheaper price, then reselling it elsewhere for higher that is actually probably less visible. If she didn't buy it, theoretically, someone else who wanted it could have bought from the manufacturer's website during the sale for less money. Likewise, the Tut lady is buying crap out of a shop further down the road or off Amazon (both equally visible to her own shopfront). And so on.

I could easily pull out another dozen day to day examples. Have you ever heard of dropshipping? It;s an entire industry designed to list stuff on sale elsewhere in China, and then just redirect the order for a profit. What we're terming 'scalping' is just trying to turn a buck by moving goods from A to B and taking a cut. The trick is just to identify the market which gives maximum return/profitability for minimum effort.

At the end of the day, this is just basic capitalism. Someone is buying goods from someone else for the desired asking price. Then they're moving the good to another location/market, and increasing the price. They're not altering the product, they're not adding value, they're not manufacturing themselves, they're not incorporating it into another product. Just moving from A to B and gaining £££. And that's raw capitalism in a nutshell, no different to when your corner shop buys a box of 20 chocolate bars for £3.00 and then resells them for £0.60 each.

I get it can annoy people who are paying more money or not prepared to invest the same effort into acquiring the goods, but at the end of the day, nothing is stopping them playing the same game or buying from the same place. If your average reseller is using bots, you can use bots too. If your reseller is waiting for a sale, you can wait for a sale too. If the reseller is redirecting stuff from other websites, you can buy from those other websites. If your 'scalper' drives to an event to buy limited edition models, you can go there as well.

None of this is some great heinous moral crime equivalent to scamming or violence.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 12:45:25


Post by: kirotheavenger


Your mother is picking up time limited items and selling them out of that time window.
Scalpers differ on this point because scalpers help to impose that scarcity on a quantity-limited product. I've assumed there's plenty of clothes available in your mother's sales. If there's not and things are regularly selling out, imo she's scalping then.

The tut lady is taking those items and centralising them at a location known to middle-aged, upper-class, white women.

I don't disagree that this is capitalism and arguably a bad thing. But they are at least providing some benefit. Hence my comment about lube. Scalpers are purely parasitic and provide no benefit to a customer, hence the negative view of them.
I get that scalping is 100% legal and possible for anyone to do.
But I'm talking about moral differences. I get that people's morals can vary wildly, particularly on matters of personal property and "fair".


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 12:50:25


Post by: Overread


Scalpers attempt to take advantage of scarcity or create scarcity of a product and from that position charge a mark up purely to provide that same product.

They aren't attempting to reach new markets or to redistribute goods to a wider market. They aren't buying when products are on discount and then upselling at normal market rates.
They aren't taking things that are sold in one market and not another and then providing them to the new market.



They are purely leaching the same market; just inflating the cost for no net gain.


Consumerism is about profiting, however it has its limit points otherwise everyone would be scalping everything and the system would break down.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:00:29


Post by: Skinnereal


Nothing in Ketara's examples seem to lake into account of the limited availability of the items.

Reselling for convenience is one thing. Wiping out the stock to create a short-term monopoly is not the same at all.
We shouldn't have to resort to deploying bots to grab standard items. This is not war, it is commerce. We should not need to use weapons.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:01:49


Post by: Ketara


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Your mother is picking up time limited items and selling them out of that time window.
Scalpers differ on this point because scalpers help to impose that scarcity on a quantity-limited product. I've assumed there's plenty of clothes available in your mother's sales. If there's not and things are regularly selling out, imo she's scalping then.


The way season stuff works is that the shops don't want to hold onto stock past a certain point because the turnover lowers (no-one wants swimsuits in winter) or to make room for new designs (fashion always changes). So they sell up all remaining stock in a sale. So the items ARE limited quantity, because the original shop won't be selling them past that point. Much like a limited edition warhammer item. If you don't grab it then, it isn't around in future, and there's a limited amount left in the manufacturer's warehouse.

Last Christmas, I was looking for an item for my partner's mother as a present. I settled on slippers, and found that the Joules brand a few years ago had sold a set with cute kittens on. Of course, Joules no longer sells them. But someone like my mother who clearly picks up 'going out of stock' items (they had hundreds of similar items), had placed a pair on ebay for twenty quid. I bought them, and my partner's mother was very happy with them.

According to the 'feth the scalper logic', the reseller should never have bought them to resell them to me. After all, they picked up a time/quantity limited item (depriving anyone else scouring the Joules sale section from a bargain), and then sold it for probably something like 60% profit. Therefore a great moral crime has occurred, right? In reality, the manufacturer got rid of their stock and is happy. The reseller invested their capital for two years and got a return (making them happy). I got to buy a good Christmas present at a price I was willing to pay, so I'm happy. And, best of all, my partner's mother ADORED the slippers!

I could replace every part of that story with a GW Ltd edition model for my friend easily.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
Scalpers attempt to take advantage of scarcity or create scarcity of a product and from that position charge a mark up purely to provide that same product.

They aren't attempting to reach new markets or to redistribute goods to a wider market. They aren't buying when products are on discount and then upselling at normal market rates.
They aren't taking things that are sold in one market and not another and then providing them to the new market.

They are purely leaching the same market; just inflating the cost for no net gain.

Consumerism is about profiting, however it has its limit points otherwise everyone would be scalping everything and the system would break down.


The limit point is what people are willing to pay. The reseller is taking a commercial risk by investing their capital. If nobody buys it at their inflated price point, they either lower the price or don't sell. And if they lower it to a point people are willing to buy at, then what's the problem? These aren't essential items, nobody died of thirst because they had to convert an Ork Warboss instead of buying the supah sikrit ltd edition version sold only in two shops for five minutes when the moon was in an eclipse. It's just buying and reselling, and no more morally intolerable than the person who sold me the slippers I wanted.

The reason people hate this is because there's a pile of stuff and they know it sells at a cheaper price. So when they're unable to get it at that price, whether it's because bots swallowed it all, because they couldn't be bothered to get out of bed for an event, or whatever; they resent paying more to someone who was more organised in their approach. They wanted to pay the cheaper price, and now they can't. So they hate the person who got there first because it's 'unfair' that they either have to pay more or up their game.

But you know, plot twist, life is unfair. I wanted fizzy water from the supermarket the other day, and they were sold out even though it was like 11AM. Life goes on. I don't sit around swearing eternal vengeance and to never play games with the people who got there first. Even though their barbecue probably ended up being better than mine.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:17:46


Post by: kirotheavenger


I think there's a distinct difference between buying up time limited items and quantity limited items.

When GW does a limited edition sale, there are people who want them who can't get them because there weren't enough to go around.
Whereas with time-limited items anyone that wants one can get one, they just have to be there.
Were there significant numbers of people who wanted kitten slippers at the time, but left the store empty handed? If not that's not scalping.

This is why I don't think buying multiple event-figures at GamesDay or GamesCon or whatever else and selling them is scalping; because there's enough to go round for people at the convention and they're selling to people that couldn't/didn't attend.

If there were people leaving shops unable to buy limited edition kitten slippers, all you're doing is convincing us your mother is a scalper.

Overread and Skinnereal have explained things perhaps better than I have already.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:22:47


Post by: Overread


There are variations and differences and perhaps people like your mother would get classed as scalpers under anti-scalping measures and she'd have to adapt to buying the stock direct off the shop at "end of line" moments (ergo when the stuff comes off the shelves and is boxed up etc....).


The key is that yes its commerce, but that the system has to have limit points on it. Commerce has to have some level of control and regulation to prevent abuse. We have things like that all the time from rules that attempt to prevent a single supermarket driving all the others out of business (we've rules on percentage of market dominance); through to measures to try and ensure fair pricing on essential goods and services. There's even rules on competition and collusion - its illegal for supermarkets to all agree to pay less for a product and charge more. Sure they do it and if they get caught they get finned.


The thing is without some level of outside control, rampant "pure" consumerism/trade will break things.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:25:18


Post by: Ketara


 kirotheavenger wrote:

If there were people leaving shops unable to buy limited edition kitten slippers, all you're doing is convincing us your mother is a scalper.


Read closer. I didn't buy the slippers from my mother. I bought them off someone who does the same thing as her. And yes, 'end of the line' sales mean that if you get there and the shop has sold out, there are no more.

But I repeat, if I'm happy, the slipper recipient is happy, the manufacturer is happy, and the reseller is happy; where's the crime? Am I supposed to feel sympathy for abstract customers who would have bought those slippers instead of the reseller/me two years before at a lower price?


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:33:07


Post by: kirotheavenger


You're just arguing how not-applicable to this discussion those slippers are then.

I wanted a Cursed City. I didn't get one, but the guy in line ahead of me got three. He's happy to sell at double RRP though.
That's scalping.

Whatever else you want to talk about, unless it's that, it's not scalping.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:33:19


Post by: Ketara


 Overread wrote:

The key is that yes its commerce, but that the system has to have limit points on it. Commerce has to have some level of control and regulation to prevent abuse. We have things like that all the time from rules that attempt to prevent a single supermarket driving all the others out of business (we've rules on percentage of market dominance); through to measures to try and ensure fair pricing on essential goods and services. There's even rules on competition and collusion - its illegal for supermarkets to all agree to pay less for a product and charge more. Sure they do it and if they get caught they get finned.

The thing is without some level of outside control, rampant "pure" consumerism/trade will break things.


By all means, but joint corporate oligopoly of critical goods (to seize the sorts of examples those laws were written for) is nothing to do with 'buy some limited edition plastic figurines and sell them on ebay'. If you skim the page above, you'll find half a dozen examples of people saying that one example or another I provided doesn't qualify as the same thing for some hair-splitting reason or another. But likewise, neither do the sorts of things you're describing, and by a considerably greater mile.

There's rampant capitalism where companies pollute towns, rig currency, abuse workers, charge a fortune for essential goods, and so on. And then there's buying some trainers/wargaming models/special pokemon cards and selling them on for double what you paid because you think you can turn a buck.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:33:35


Post by: A.T.


 Polonius wrote:
Scalping is also at worst a selfish act, not really morally reprehensible.
I mean it depends on the nature of the scalping. At the start of the pandemic I remember a photo taken of a guy who was scalping all of the child cough medicine at the local supermarket.

Everyone has their own threshold on where things go from reasonable self-interest to reprehensible a-hole.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:36:10


Post by: Ketara


 kirotheavenger wrote:
You're just arguing how not-applicable to this discussion those slippers are then.

I wanted a Cursed City. I didn't get one, but the guy in line ahead of me got three. He's happy to sell at double RRP though.
That's scalping.

Whatever else you want to talk about, unless it's that, it's not scalping.


Now imagine someone wants Cursed City in six months, sees the 'scalpers' listing, and happily pays it. Because he wants the product and is happy with the price.

He's happy. The reseller is happy. Games Workshop is happy. The only one with an axe to grind is you, because you don't want to spend that much money. But given you're not involved in any of it, what's it got to do with you? You're literally conjuring up a grudge because you didn't get the exact sculpt of plastic toys you wanted at the price you wanted.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:39:05


Post by: the_scotsman


 BuFFo wrote:
-Guardsman- wrote:
I ask because there's some guy in my local Warhammer community who proudly admits to being a scalper, and I swore to myself that I would never play a 40k game with him (unless a tournament pits me against him). But I wonder if this sentiment is actually prevalent, or if some players leave their feelings on such things at the door when it comes to actual gaming.

I'm firmly of the opinion that every local gaming community should come together to ostracize scalpers.


I'm a scalper. Everyone here is. Everyone here has bought something, then at some point, sold it for profit. Nothing immoral about that.

If you ostracize people who sell their property, there will be no one around.


....You understand that isn't the definition of "scalping" correct?

Buying a two-army box and selling the other half of the box individually for more than half the price of the box also isn't scalping.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:39:48


Post by: kirotheavenger


You can just say you personally don't care.
I find your attempts to convince us that doubling the cost of scarcity they helped to create doesn't matter ridiculous and slightly insulting.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:41:13


Post by: Ketara


A.T. wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
Scalping is also at worst a selfish act, not really morally reprehensible.
I mean it depends on the nature of the scalping. At the start of the pandemic I remember a photo taken of a guy who was scalping all of the child cough medicine at the local supermarket.

Everyone has their own threshold on where things go from reasonable self-interest to reprehensible a-hole.


That's a really good example of where the state has to step in. Monopoly of essential products. Under most arguments made above though, it wouldn't count because more of it would end up restocked in the shop later on (and it's therefore not 'quantity-limited). Which highlights how absurd the focus on that aspect is.

Monopoly/Oligopoly and price gouging over essential products is harmful because people have no choice but to pay it. You have them in a corner, and they need it to survive and thrive. So the State, quite rightly, regulates those things when necessary. Electricity, food, water, road networks, and so on. Frankly, the American healthcare system is a perfect example of a system where people get gouged for utterly essential healthcare products and services, even though they're not 'quantity-limited'.

The people who gouge over things like that are scum, I think we can all agree. But it's not the same thing as flipping a dozen copies of Cursed City, and to draw any form of equivalence between the two and start refusing to interact with people who do it (the original premise under discussion) is just ludicrous hyperbole.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
You can just say you personally don't care.
I find your attempts to convince us that doubling the cost of scarcity they helped to create doesn't matter ridiculous and slightly insulting.


It doesn't matter. You're not starving, you can buy other models to play the game with, and everyone else in the commercial chain was willing to freely interact to reach their own mutually satisfactory conclusions. There are so many unfair things in the world, that if this is the thing you'd carry a permanent grudge against other people for, you must have a remarkably blessed life. I understand that it's frustating/irritating (nothing wrong with being hacked off about not being able to get what you want), but doing as the original premise of this thread requires, and socially ostracising people over it?

More generally speaking, someone saying 'I refuse to play wargames against you because people like you sometimes make me unable to get the plastic toy soldier I want!' is just such a bizare OTT stance to take that I have trouble comprehending it. I think that's why people want to depict 'scalping' over toy soldiers as some sort of moral deficiency - because it legitimises what is otherwise an extreme over-reaction.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:53:36


Post by: A.T.


 Ketara wrote:
That's a really good example of where the state has to step in. Monopoly of essential products. Under most arguments made above though, it wouldn't count because more of it would end up restocked in the shop later on (and it's therefore not 'quantity-limited). Which highlights how absurd the focus on that aspect is.
I chose it in part as it slips more into the the quantity limited aspect - if you get sick it doesn't do you any good to put the medicine on your reminder list for next months shop.


 Ketara wrote:
The people who gouge over things like that are scum, I think we can all agree. But it's not the same thing as flipping a dozen copies of Cursed City, and to draw any form of equivalence between the two and start refusing to interact with people who do it (the original premise under discussion) is just ludicrous hyperbole.
I don't know. If there was a game I and my friends were looking forward to playing, only to find that we could not because some guy had bought them all and was offering to sell them to us at a price we didn't want to pay ... i'd probably turn down his request for a game of it.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 13:57:16


Post by: Lammia


 Ketara wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
You're just arguing how not-applicable to this discussion those slippers are then.

I wanted a Cursed City. I didn't get one, but the guy in line ahead of me got three. He's happy to sell at double RRP though.
That's scalping.

Whatever else you want to talk about, unless it's that, it's not scalping.


Now imagine someone wants Cursed City in six months, sees the 'scalpers' listing, and happily pays it. Because he wants the product and is happy with the price.

He's happy. The reseller is happy. Games Workshop is happy. The only one with an axe to grind is you, because you don't want to spend that much money. But given you're not involved in any of it, what's it got to do with you? You're literally conjuring up a grudge because you didn't get the exact sculpt of plastic toys you wanted at the price you wanted.
Scalpers aren't going to sit on a box for six months, they want - need - to flip them quickly. That's what makes them the profit.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 14:07:35


Post by: Ketara


Lammia wrote:
Scalpers aren't going to sit on a box for six months, they want - need - to flip them quickly. That's what makes them the profit.


Not true. You ever seen goldfishblue on ebay? He combs the auctions and other places for limited edition and out of production warhammer. Grabs it low, buys it for an insane markup and sits on it until he gets it. We're talking fifty quid or the like for a Tallarn Heavy weapons team. Ridiculously over-priced. He's a scalper, by any reasonable definition.

I could sit around and fume until steam comes out my ears, because his habits stop me being able to pick up that kind of stuff at a lower price on ebay (he buys up what becomes available, after all, and bids on even what he doesn't win). But whilst I'll freely admit it irritates the hell out of me seeing stuff at that kind of price and knowing he's probably driving up prices all over the shop; I don't think he's a bad person for it. He's just a bloke trying to turn a buck and make a living.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 14:38:05


Post by: the_scotsman


 Ketara wrote:


It doesn't matter. You're not starving, you can buy other models to play the game with, and everyone else in the commercial chain was willing to freely interact to reach their own mutually satisfactory conclusions. There are so many unfair things in the world, that if this is the thing you'd carry a permanent grudge against other people for, you must have a remarkably blessed life. I understand that it's frustating/irritating (nothing wrong with being hacked off about not being able to get what you want), but doing as the original premise of this thread requires, and socially ostracising people over it?

More generally speaking, someone saying 'I refuse to play wargames against you because people like you sometimes make me unable to get the plastic toy soldier I want!' is just such a bizare OTT stance to take that I have trouble comprehending it. I think that's why people want to depict 'scalping' over toy soldiers as some sort of moral deficiency - because it legitimises what is otherwise an extreme over-reaction.


People tend to care more about things that personally affect them, more news at 11.

I guess all I can say is get over it? People are going to not like you sometimes, and "I'm going to play a wargame with you for 3+ hours" is a bar high enough that I want to generally like the person I'm going to be spending that time with.

If you cut in front of me in line every time I go to purchase something in the game store, I'd probably also refuse to play with you. Or if you just smell bad. Why is not playing a game with someone "An extreme over-reaction" in your mind? To me it's extremely minor, in terms of choosing not to partake in an extremely optional leisure activity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ketara wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Scalpers aren't going to sit on a box for six months, they want - need - to flip them quickly. That's what makes them the profit.


Not true. You ever seen goldfishblue on ebay? He combs the auctions and other places for limited edition and out of production warhammer. Grabs it low, buys it for an insane markup and sits on it until he gets it. We're talking fifty quid or the like for a Tallarn Heavy weapons team. Ridiculously over-priced. He's a scalper, by any reasonable definition.

I could sit around and fume until steam comes out my ears, because his habits stop me being able to pick up that kind of stuff at a lower price on ebay (he buys up what becomes available, after all, and bids on even what he doesn't win). But whilst I'll freely admit it irritates the hell out of me seeing stuff at that kind of price and knowing he's probably driving up prices all over the shop; I don't think he's a bad person for it. He's just a bloke trying to turn a buck and make a living.


I tend to think basically anybody who makes their living purely by making life worse for people, even in a small and petty way, is at least slightly a scumbag.

There's obviously degrees of scumbag, and I don't think someone who's a model scalper is more of a scumbag than....say....any executive at any company big enough to have executives, but I'm still not going to like them as much as I like any person who actually contributes in some meaningful way to society to earn their bread. They're basically just the dude from Toy Story 2. Not someone I hate, not someone I actively fume about, but do I want to spend multiple hours of my life interacting with the Toy Story 2 guy? no, not really tbh.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 14:44:51


Post by: A.T.


 the_scotsman wrote:
Why is not playing a game with someone "An extreme over-reaction" in your mind?
I think you may have muddled my posts with someone elses.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 14:50:51


Post by: the_scotsman


 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
would folk who wouldn't play a scalper play at a store that sells some second hand stuff a higher than the original retail price?

and if you would how abo if he second hand stuff is recent as opposed to ancient (eg a LE or something only Just out of production


A store provides me a lot more than a random dude who ebays stuff from his basement.

A store is the reason I get to have a table, a shelf to store my terrain, a place for me to hang out and play the actual game, and they pay rent/taxes/utilities/employees to stand at the desk to provide me that space.

They're completely within their rights to add a percentage to the products that they sell to offset those costs.

Scalping is, by definition, providing zero value to me as compared to if I were able to purchase the product from the original producing company.

if something is sold as a bundle, and I only want a part of that bundle, you are providing a service to me if you buy that bundle and separate out the parts so that I can purchase only the part that I want, so I'm perfectly happy to pay you a higher price for that product.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 15:01:18


Post by: Polonius


The only way scalping works is if the fair market value for an item is higher than sale price of the item. Which means that the scalper actually performs an essential function: allowing the laws of supply and demand to balance out. It replaces the ability to camp out, or drive to multiple stores, or attend a specific event, or even just get lucky, with the ability to simply pay cash for an item.

If the fair market price for Cursed City was $250, then selling it at $200 is a great deal. And selling it at that price, with no caps, and with limited stock, means that it becomes trivial to make some money off of it.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 15:09:06


Post by: Ketara


 the_scotsman wrote:

I guess all I can say is get over it?

...errr...exactly! Albeit from the other direction I think?

People are going to not like you sometimes, and "I'm going to play a wargame with you for 3+ hours" is a bar high enough that I want to generally like the person I'm going to be spending that time with.

I play wargames to play wargames. Sometimes I like the person and play them again. Sometimes I like them a lot and they become a friend. Sometimes I don't like them for a reason (like being smelly, as you say) and don't play them again. But in none of those calculations falls 'How do you make a living' unless it's something really reprehensible. Car salespeople use slimy tactics. Bank managers too. As you say, any company large enough to have executives. I don't discover that and then refuse to play them.

At the end of the day, if I get on with someone, enjoy their personal company, and have good games with them; I'm not going to suddenly refuse to play them again and blacklist them as a terrible person because they flip some plastic soldiers.It's not an active enough moral concern for me that it overwrites my basic interpersonal dynamics (aka, do I like you and being around you). I've known people go vegan and start pulling that sort of gak ('You're such a terrible person to be a meateater, I couldn't possibly be around you anymore'). It's just so OTT and self-righteous. For something to elicit that sort of moral reaction on my part and completely wipe away the interpersonal dynamic, there needs to be something majorly serious (likes torturing animals, Nazism, scalps for essential goods, whatever).

Otherwise you end up with people refusing to talk to each other because one bought from Primark whilst the other one considers it unethical, or because someone likes Frankie Boyle, or something. And yes, I've seen people fall out over those two things.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 15:59:33


Post by: A.T.


 Polonius wrote:
Which means that the scalper actually performs an essential function: allowing the laws of supply and demand to balance out.
I'm not sure 'essential' is the right word.

If every scalper on the planet was to spontaneously combust then their sudden loss won't lead to some kind of crisis, it'd just mean that some people won't have to pay extra, some people won't have the option to pay extra, and the scalpers themselves won't be skimming the difference into their pockets.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 16:41:43


Post by: Nurglitch


I think it's less that they're essential in getting supply and demand matched than they're seeing an opportunity in demand unmatched by supply.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 17:04:25


Post by: G00fySmiley


to the OP yea i would play them outside of them being some sort of terrible behavior ( i don't' consider scalping plastic minis to be something making a person morally bankrupt just find it to personally be distasteful) then i would happily play most people in a pickup game. throw some dice have a brew (or 3) and forge an interesting narrative about why we are fighting and the repercussions for each of losing.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 17:21:47


Post by: the_scotsman


 Ketara wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

I guess all I can say is get over it?

...errr...exactly! Albeit from the other direction I think?

People are going to not like you sometimes, and "I'm going to play a wargame with you for 3+ hours" is a bar high enough that I want to generally like the person I'm going to be spending that time with.

I play wargames to play wargames. Sometimes I like the person and play them again. Sometimes I like them a lot and they become a friend. Sometimes I don't like them for a reason (like being smelly, as you say) and don't play them again. But in none of those calculations falls 'How do you make a living' unless it's something really reprehensible. Car salespeople use slimy tactics. Bank managers too. As you say, any company large enough to have executives. I don't discover that and then refuse to play them.

At the end of the day, if I get on with someone, enjoy their personal company, and have good games with them; I'm not going to suddenly refuse to play them again and blacklist them as a terrible person because they flip some plastic soldiers.It's not an active enough moral concern for me that it overwrites my basic interpersonal dynamics (aka, do I like you and being around you). I've known people go vegan and start pulling that sort of gak ('You're such a terrible person to be a meateater, I couldn't possibly be around you anymore'). It's just so OTT and self-righteous. For something to elicit that sort of moral reaction on my part and completely wipe away the interpersonal dynamic, there needs to be something majorly serious (likes torturing animals, Nazism, scalps for essential goods, whatever).

Otherwise you end up with people refusing to talk to each other because one bought from Primark whilst the other one considers it unethical, or because someone likes Frankie Boyle, or something. And yes, I've seen people fall out over those two things.


OK. And that's fine that that's your opinion. It's an opinion poll. It seems like a little less than half of folks on here would consider someone's career choice to be a reason to avoid them at the game table.

People on here seem to treat "refusing to play a game with someone" as some super active, personal, confrontational thing. It's bizarre to me. You just ask different people to play with you than the people who you're generally avoiding. It's not 'refusing to speak to them' or 'spitting in their face when they come over.' It's just choosing not to spend three hours interacting with the person.

The distinction for me I guess is, there's a difference between me being OK with being around someone, and me thinking it'd be a good time to actively hang out with someone as my main conversational partner for three to four hours at a time. I think of pretty much any career where a person actively makes other peoples' lives worse, even in a fairly minor fashion, to be enough that I wouldn't want to actively spend three to four hours of my time hanging out with them.

If I found out someone was a payday loan salesman, a house flipper, an ebay scalper, an engineer for a weapons firm or an advertising guy for a cigarette company, I wouldn't want to spend time with them actively even if I could reasonably hold a conversation with them. I'd actively consider that kind of thing to be MORE compelling than if occasionally they forget the ol' deodorant.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 17:50:20


Post by: Ketara


 the_scotsman wrote:

If I found out someone was a payday loan salesman, a house flipper, an ebay scalper, an engineer for a weapons firm or an advertising guy for a cigarette company, I wouldn't want to spend time with them actively even if I could reasonably hold a conversation with them. I'd actively consider that kind of thing to be MORE compelling than if occasionally they forget the ol' deodorant.

So if your best friend decided to get a job at the MoD, you'd just stare at them blankly and say 'Well, I suppose we can't be friends now'? Or if you were getting on with someone really well, had several games down the club, and then found out they ran the local betting shop; you'd be like 'No, I'm terribly sorry, I know we've had some cracking games, but I just can't enjoy myself anymore whilst knowing what an awful place you work'?

I'm not entirely sure that you (or indeed, many of the people who voted) actually would, regardless of what you might say anonymously online. At the risk of Darwining it, Germany in the 1930's showed that people are willing to ignore a lot to not rock the boat. We're social animals. If we have a good interpersonal rapport, we tend to roll with it and ignore a lot.

It's also true that nobody is forced to play or socialise with anybody at the end of the day, but that does cut both ways. I think I'd find a priggish judgmental attitude (even if not directed at me personally and just at somebody else) far more repelling than actually working in any of the named professions. Even if someone like that found my own trade morally acceptable, they'd probably decide that they couldn't bear my clothing label or something next week.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 18:02:41


Post by: the_scotsman


 Ketara wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

If I found out someone was a payday loan salesman, a house flipper, an ebay scalper, an engineer for a weapons firm or an advertising guy for a cigarette company, I wouldn't want to spend time with them actively even if I could reasonably hold a conversation with them. I'd actively consider that kind of thing to be MORE compelling than if occasionally they forget the ol' deodorant.

So if your best friend decided to get a job at the MoD, you'd just stare at them blankly and say 'Well, I suppose we can't be friends now'? Or if you were getting on with someone really well, had several games down the club, and then found out they ran the local betting shop; you'd be like 'No, I'm terribly sorry, I know we've had some cracking games, but I just can't enjoy myself anymore whilst knowing what an awful place you work'?

I'm not entirely sure that you (or indeed, many of the people who voted) actually would, regardless of what you might say anonymously online. At the risk of Darwining it, Germany in the 1930's showed that people are willing to ignore a lot to not rock the boat. We're social animals. If we have a good interpersonal rapport, we tend to roll with it and ignore a lot.

It's also true that nobody is forced to play or socialise with anybody at the end of the day, but that does cut both ways. I think I'd find a priggish judgmental attitude (even if not directed at me personally and just at somebody else) far more repelling than actually working in any of the named professions. Even if someone like that found my own trade morally acceptable, they'd probably decide that they couldn't bear my clothing label or something next week.


No, I'd probably just stop actively seeking out games to play with them. Like I said, it's not this super personal, confrontational thing. There's 15-odd opponents available every week. Incredibly easy to tailor my gaming experience to only play with people I personally enjoy the company of.

And following the particular choice of metaphor that you've gone with here...I think I come out looking a little bit better for it than someone who ignores stuff like that....


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 18:18:08


Post by: Ketara


 the_scotsman wrote:

No, I'd probably just stop actively seeking out games to play with them. Like I said, it's not this super personal, confrontational thing. There's 15-odd opponents available every week. Incredibly easy to tailor my gaming experience to only play with people I personally enjoy the company of.


People I enjoy the personal company of =/= people whose minor life decisions I morally endorse or approve of. And therein lies the difference between us, I suspect. Having the two equate to the same thing sounds exhausting.



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 19:25:02


Post by: the_scotsman


 Ketara wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

No, I'd probably just stop actively seeking out games to play with them. Like I said, it's not this super personal, confrontational thing. There's 15-odd opponents available every week. Incredibly easy to tailor my gaming experience to only play with people I personally enjoy the company of.


People I enjoy the personal company of =/= people whose minor life decisions I morally endorse or approve of. And therein lies the difference between us, I suspect. Having the two equate to the same thing sounds exhausting.



I think if you consider someone's career to be a 'minor life decision' then it would be. We do after all spend the majority of our waking hours at work, so if your work is something morally reprehensible, that means you spend most of your time awake adding to the overall human misery of the world rather than detracting from it or keeping things basically neutral.

So yeah, I consider that to be more of a thing to hold against someone socially than minor breaches of interpersonal conduct. It probably comes from being in a general career where you can perform the same work and either design things that make peoples' lives better or design things that make peoples' lives worse. I know of a lot of people whose sum contribution to the world has been a marginal increase in efficiency of the manufacture of the missiles we use to blow up children overseas, so it's something I pay attention to in the people I choose to associate with.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 19:38:20


Post by: Ketara


I think we've pretty much summed up the two positions between us.

I don't mind playing with someone who flips boxes of warhammer for profit because I consider it a natural facet of normal capitalism; whereas you feel it to be an ethical stain which taints their entire character to the point that you wouldn't associate with them whenever possible on general moral principle.

If you don't mind me asking (just as a 100% neutral and inoffensively intended side-query); do you honestly believe your own life/person to be so free of moral vice that you can adopt that positon without being a massive hypocrite? Because I honestly don't think I could, and I don't think anyone I've ever met/known in detail could either.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 19:52:08


Post by: Rihgu


Well, speaking for him a bit, but the_scotsman doesn't seem the sort of person, based purely on posts, to chase down somebody who has refused a game and try to force them to play based on his moral purity.

It's sort of a subjective thing, anyways. Somebody might find his refusing to play with a payday loan salesman morally reprehensible and refuse a game with him. That wouldn't make him a hypocrite.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 19:52:44


Post by: the_scotsman


 Ketara wrote:
I think we've pretty much summed up the two positions between us.

I don't mind playing with someone who flips boxes of warhammer for profit because I consider it a natural facet of normal capitalism; whereas you feel that it somehow taints their entire character to the point that you refuse to associate with them if possible on moral principle.

If you don't mind me asking (just as a 100% neutral and inoffensively intended side-query); do you honestly believe your own life/person to be so free of moral vice that you can adopt that positon without being a massive hypocrite? Because I honestly don't think I could, and I don't think anyone I've ever met/known in detail could either.


I'm sure, lol, 100% neutral side-query worded in a 100% neutral and not at all biased way right there.

Yeah, I do not see myself as a hypocrite for choosing to not spend hours of my life with a person who makes their career that way, unless we're constructing some kind of bizarre scenario where they're...I don't know, a warhammer scalper by day and they run a not-for-profit orphanage by night or something.

Take two identical people, one of them is some kind of person who adds some thing of value to the world through their career, be that engineering, architecture, art, construction, machining, whatever, and the other person just extracts money from random people they don't know and doesn't add much of anything, say by owning land or property, offering payday loans, owning a pawn shop, living off of welfare, or scalping luxury goods, I don't think I need to be a perfect moral paragon to judge the first person as generally a better person than the other and consider them to be more of a person I want to spend time around.

In fact, the people who have in the past made careers that have added to the overall level of human misery in the world I've found are more likely to make those kind of judgements/avoid the company of people who still live that kind of life. I know lawyers who previously worked for insurance companies basically to try and find any way to avoid giving people the money they were owed after they suffered a personal injury or loss, and now they are far more likely to avoid the kind of person who actively pursues that kind of career than others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rihgu wrote:
Well, speaking for him a bit, but the_scotsman doesn't seem the sort of person, based purely on posts, to chase down somebody who has refused a game and try to force them to play based on his moral purity.

It's sort of a subjective thing, anyways. Somebody mind find his refusing to play with a payday loan salesman morally reprehensible and refuse a game with him. That wouldn't make him a hypocrite.


Or, to give a current example right now, if I make a post on the bit of our server dedicated to finding games, and someone else chooses to make a post directly underneath that saying "also looking for a game, bringing blood angels", I'm not about to take personal offense that that person didn't instead respond to my post and play with me, or ask why he didn't look for a game with me, or take it as a personal slight.

It's a game that requires a long time commitment both in terms of pre-planning and in terms of actually playing the game. It's vastly beyond the level of holding a brief conversation with someone, or hanging out in a group with someone - it's more like choosing to go out and have lunch with somebody one-on-one.



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 20:18:40


Post by: Ketara


 the_scotsman wrote:

Yeah, I do not see myself as a hypocrite for choosing to not spend hours of my life with a person who makes their career that way,


I'll take your word for it, and say that you must be a rare individual in that case (EDIT:- I feel like I need to specifiy that actually wasn't sarcasm either - I don't know you after all).

This is the thing I suppose. I view people as being vastly multifaceted individuals capable of (as you put it) running the soup kitchen with one hand and working in advertising psychology in the other. After all, how many paragons of society turn out to be wife-beaters at home? How many Christian priests diddling little kids behind the altars? Even on a less serious level, I've known honest people who were control freaks in their relationships, self-declared liberals who quite happily advocate violence against groups they dislike, good cause protestors who still bitch behind backs like teenagers, and so on. Saints and sinners all at the same time. And that's without even going into moral areas where there really is no right answer.

When I was a teenager, I used to view the world in a much more black and white way. Since I've grown older, I discovered that people are much more....well, complicated would be the word. So long as there's not some sort of serious harm being done (physical violence, child abuse, etc), I try to be a lot more 'live and let live' and less judgemental. Flipping a handful of toy soldiers just doesn't warrant (to me at least) the severity of the moral judgment and behavioural response that you seem to minimise and take for granted. But that's just me.

I think I've made my view on things clear, so I'll end there and spare you any further ramblings.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 22:32:40


Post by: Argive


Id play the scalper. Heck I've flipped some stuff myself.

Theres a difference bewteen doing things at some sort of commercial level buyign up tonnes of stock, and flipping some sprues made for an army you don't play which you can get at a huge discount so that you can afford to buy stuff for your army that's old as gak..

I'd mainly play them to gauge if they have a copy of Liber Xenologis they don't really want and can let it go at a reasonable price

Apart from the most recent debacles I think GW pre orders and 3rd party shops have been pretty good. So if you didn't buy something at the time it was available at the price GW set from GW or a 3rd party because you didn't have the money or weren't sure if you wanted and then it goes OOP that's kind of on you.

For example:

I would have bought cursed city If paid attention to release dates. Alas I missed the boat and now people who haven't are floging their copies at 100+% mark up.
I don't want cursed city that badly so I won't pay that price.

I guess what im saying is you cant expect things to be for sale forever... If you really wanted something, what exactly stopped you buying it in the first place? Have a relationship with your local GW / 3rd party store and put down the ££/$$$ for the stuf you really really want. If they get shafted with the amount of copies write to GW and complain. But not sure why you'd hate someone else for managing to get a couple copies.. The market dictates the price. I only ever re-sell at buyers prices. So if buyers are willing to pay 150% and others are selling at that mark up, why would I go out of my way to lose out ? I dotn see anyone else doing hand outs for me..


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 23:00:54


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I think some people are getting confused with "making a profit" and "scalping".

The two are not synonymous.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 23:08:27


Post by: Cryptek of Awesome


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think some people are getting confused with "making a profit" and "scalping".

The two are not synonymous.


Facts.

How many people and Warhammer Youtube guys told everyone to buy the Recruit edition and sell of the marines to offset the cost of the Necron warriors?
That's just good common sense.

What if you found someone who also wanted the Warden? And someone else wanted more Scarabs?

Everyone got a good deal and you got free Necron warriors or $5 and some free Necron warriors.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 23:23:28


Post by: Argive


I found the launch of Indomitus most fascinating.

Poeple had ebay shops with selling specific parts of of the box as a pre-order.

Some guys had like 20+ copies ordered it seemed which was a bit nuts.

Don't get me wrong I get it, but its a lot of leg work to get a few £. Even with free Packaging (like I get at work) I'm too lazy to sell of the surplus I have lying around for months lol.

Maybe this weekend.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/21 23:46:04


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


Back when I was a regular in my local GW, I didn't care if anyone was scalping, so long as they weren't making their deal INSIDE the store.

Realistically, I'd give the person a game, maybe 2, to judge whether they are donkey caves or not.

Now, all bets would be off if, for instance, they were bragging about selling a mined out graphics card on eBay while listing it as new. That sort of dishonest behavior is going to attract my attention, because they have no problems cheating there, I'd bet money they'll cheat at plastic toy soldiers.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 00:06:31


Post by: the_scotsman


 Ketara wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

Yeah, I do not see myself as a hypocrite for choosing to not spend hours of my life with a person who makes their career that way,


I'll take your word for it, and say that you must be a rare individual in that case (EDIT:- I feel like I need to specifiy that actually wasn't sarcasm either - I don't know you after all).

This is the thing I suppose. I view people as being vastly multifaceted individuals capable of (as you put it) running the soup kitchen with one hand and working in advertising psychology in the other. After all, how many paragons of society turn out to be wife-beaters at home? How many Christian priests diddling little kids behind the altars? Even on a less serious level, I've known honest people who were control freaks in their relationships, self-declared liberals who quite happily advocate violence against groups they dislike, good cause protestors who still bitch behind backs like teenagers, and so on. Saints and sinners all at the same time. And that's without even going into moral areas where there really is no right answer.

When I was a teenager, I used to view the world in a much more black and white way. Since I've grown older, I discovered that people are much more....well, complicated would be the word. So long as there's not some sort of serious harm being done (physical violence, child abuse, etc), I try to be a lot more 'live and let live' and less judgemental. Flipping a handful of toy soldiers just doesn't warrant (to me at least) the severity of the moral judgment and behavioural response that you seem to minimise and take for granted. But that's just me.

I think I've made my view on things clear, so I'll end there and spare you any further ramblings.


It kind of feels like we're viewing 'choosing not to play a game with someone' in two very different ways. I wouldn't choose to play a wargame with most of the people I know who I just consider just acquaintances, coworkers, whatever.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 00:38:37


Post by: A.T.


 Argive wrote:
But not sure why you'd hate someone else for managing to get a couple copies.. The market dictates the price. I only ever re-sell at buyers prices. So if buyers are willing to pay 150% and others are selling at that mark up, why would I go out of my way to lose out ?
From a buyers perspective you've put a 50% tax on the product, and regardless of whether they are willing to pay or not you've added cost without adding value.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 01:53:57


Post by: Argive


A.T. wrote:
 Argive wrote:
But not sure why you'd hate someone else for managing to get a couple copies.. The market dictates the price. I only ever re-sell at buyers prices. So if buyers are willing to pay 150% and others are selling at that mark up, why would I go out of my way to lose out ?
From a buyers perspective you've put a 50% tax on the product, and regardless of whether they are willing to pay or not you've added cost without adding value.


If there is no value why are they buying?
If I bought something and held onto it, and that's gone OOP I have invested my liquidity into the product for however many years/months. Why should I not charge for the investment?
If I'm selling them a part of a box I'm offering the service of them not having to buy the entire box and in turn sell off the crap they don't want.

With things like indomitus pretty much everything was being sold under the eventual RRP price.
With other boxes stuff doesn't get released period. So they would have to get the whole box to get one part.

Supply and demand.
There is a lot of demand for for OOP High elf dragon lords. There's bugger all supply unfortunately so they are being sold for £150+.
I refuse to pay that price. Guess I will never own that model until other people decide they don't pay either.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 02:15:16


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 Argive wrote:

Supply and demand.
There is a lot of demand for for OOP High elf dragon lords. There's bugger all supply unfortunately so they are being sold for £150+.
I refuse to pay that price. Guess I will never own that model until other people decide they don't pay either.


This plays out in all sorts of areas, not just Warhams stuff. For instance, I have a hard and fast personal rule that I won't pay more than 15% above MSRP for OOP scale models. If none are available for close to the original retail price (some exceptions would apply) then I'll either wait for a repop, or hope another company takes the subject on.

You see a ton of this right now with gaming consoles. Because of Current Events, PS5s and X-box systems are going for double their retail price, because people put that much value onto them. Same same with graphics cards.


Now, in theme of this topic, were I at the local shop, and hear some guy talking about how he put a load of mined out graphics cards on ebay, and listed them as being NEW, then yeah, I'd give a long hard think about playing against them. IF they are willing to cheat that way, what sort of cheating are they OK with, and going to attempt in a dice throwing competition with plastic toy soldiers?


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 02:20:42


Post by: Necrosis


Depends on the scale. If they are just a person who buys, say, two or so boxes, and sell them at a higher price, then yeah, I will play them. If the guys buy out my entire local game store stock or use bots to buy every item, no, **** off, I am not playing with you. Because these people are bad/toxic for the community. I have quit games because Scalpers have artificially increased the prices by so much, it's no longer worth playing that game. I use to play Dragonball Super TCG, I tend to buy most of my cards as singles, with some rare exceptions of me buying some starters, boosters or special boxes. One time, a year or two ago, I bought a card for 80 dollars because I really needed that for my deck. Now a day's that card is 300 dollars. All the cards in that game have skyrocketed in price, and as a result, I have left that TCG because it's way too expensive.

Think about it from this point of view, someone is new to GW or is considering joining the hobby. They need a box but all the copies/boxes have been bought due to scalpers and they look online and see how expensive it is. They decided the hobby is too expensive and not worth it, and instead, they play another game or find another hobby. Right now GW hasn't been hit as hard as TCG's and I am thankful for that and I hope it never does get as bad as TCG's.

Edit: TCG = Trading Card Game


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 08:34:16


Post by: Power Elephant


I don't see why not honestly. Scalpers esentially just cash in on people's impatience. You don't have to buy that shiny new kit for 500% its price, just wait a couple of weeks and buy it when things settle down.
Furthermore supply problems of this type can only exist if the company making the product intentionaly releases an insufficient amount of product to generate hype or make things look excusive.
Using the example above - trading card games - a piece of cardboard with ink on it can't jump in value for a significant amount of time to 300$ because of scalpers. It costs the company making the card a litteral penny to make a copy. If they really wanted to lower the price of the card they would have done so.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 09:08:03


Post by: A.T.


 Argive wrote:
If there is no value why are they buying?
No added value.
Scalpers are in effect the people who reach over the kids heads to take the last he-man off the shelf and then tell them they can have it if their parents pay double.

People who provide an actual service - such as bitz resellers - I wouldn't consider to be scalpers.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 09:17:12


Post by: Da Boss


For me it really depends on scale and to an extent whether the set was new or OOP. With OOP models, I can forgive it a lot more than with new, limited edition boxed sets.

But ultimately no one has to buy any of this stuff, so it's not like the consumers are free of culpability.

I do take exception to the idea that just because something is capitalism there is no moral element to it though. There's a moral element (I'd rather say ethical) to everything, and you can't just exclude capitalism because you don't want to discuss the ethical aspects of that system.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 11:05:02


Post by: bbb


I don't have much respect for someone who scalps multiple copies of an entire game at release, but it's totally fine in my eyes when someone buys multiple copies of a GW game with exclusive minis and breaks the game up to sell the minis individually.

Lots of people are only interested in a handful of minis from the limited or oop games.

It's also fine if someone sells their copy for a profit years later or finds copies for sale at retail years later and then makes a profit.

That being said, supply and demand for luxury items isn't something I can understand getting worked up about.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 14:42:13


Post by: Cronch


It's not morally reprehensible, it's just capitalism.

Those two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they go together like colonialism and genocide or american fruit companies and coups in central america.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 15:23:23


Post by: gorgon


Personally, I refuse to play with ultra-judgmental people.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 16:00:00


Post by: BDBurrow


Delete


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/22 19:52:06


Post by: Andykp


SamusDrake wrote:
Andykp wrote:
I buy big box sets like the Christmas army boxes and keep bits and sell the loss. Rarely make money on them, often just break even but get stuff I want. I have done it with limited run boxes but only when I want bits of it. Never Buy a box to sell that I don’t want at all. Does that make me a bad person. I get a kit or two I want, everyone else gets market price other kits. With the marine Xmas a while ago I kept the repulsor and sold the marines. They sold for less than a new box of them. I got a repulsor free but had to list and post all the other stuff. Very rare you get something that is genuinely limited even rarer that you should sell stuff for more than they are worth. Seems to be an odd thing to exclude someone for. As someone with limited funds it makes the hobby affordable.

I make more money buying limited models and selling them painted. That’s where the profit is. For example, selling ghaz on unbuilt the going rate was around £45. I sold mine painted for £125.


To put it into perspective, this is a scalper; they walk into a shop and buy up all the SNES minis they have in stock for £70 each and then re-sells them on Ebay for £200 each...

"I'll take all of them"

...there are a lot of downsides for the retailer if they let this happen and it comes in the form of complaints that take up time( "why didn't you order in enough stock?" ) and sometimes goodwill has to be dished out, and loss of sales on other lines; "might as well pick up bread & milk while I'm here." Applying this to a Warhammer store - even the online store - you might add a White Dwarf or a painting handle to your purchase of Dominion. If a scalper walked in and purchased all 10 copies of Dominion in stock then that store loses out on those additional potential sales and are going to face a backlash from the other 9 customers who are genuinely there for a single copy or two.

My friend, in contrast you are merely selling on what you don't want from a kit and making a bit of money in the process. In a way you are are doing others a service...

Last year I purchased a copy of Blackstone Fortress from Wayland games, but it was missing the exploration deck. Dealing with the non-GW retailer was going to be nothing but hassle, but because someone was selling off contents of their copy of BSF on EBay, I was able to purchase a replacement deck for £3 which was worth it for the time and hassle it saved me in dealing with either Wayland or GW, which might have meant sending my copy back even though I'd already assembled the models...

As for Ghaz you have added value to that model in the form of a service, as you're including not only materials but also time and effort.

In a nutshell, I'd be happy to have a game with you!


Thanks.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/23 00:11:05


Post by: Shrapnelsmile


For me it depends on the circumstances. If they enjoy gaming, and part out unwanted faction / excess stuff for a bit of a profit I totally get it. If they buy three Indomitus boxes, sit on them, flip them then complain about GW while you are trying to play a match, no way.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/23 02:23:36


Post by: pancakeonions


His conduct as a gamer is really all I care about. Someone bragging about scalping might be more likely to be a jerk player, but if that wasn't the case, I'd play against him. I don't care at all whether or not he buys up product to sell back later at a higher price. I can't imagine he makes much money doing that...


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/23 03:45:19


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Are they a good opponent? Fun to play against? Then sure.

Now, if they sold something on false pretences (fraud etc) then maybe not.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/23 05:16:09


Post by: ccs


Some of you people have downright bizarre stances/takes on the issue/lines n the sand....


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/23 05:33:21


Post by: Lammia


 pancakeonions wrote:
His conduct as a gamer is really all I care about. Someone bragging about scalping might be more likely to be a jerk player, but if that wasn't the case, I'd play against him. I don't care at all whether or not he buys up product to sell back later at a higher price. I can't imagine he makes much money doing that...
You would be surprised...


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/23 05:36:14


Post by: Argive


ccs wrote:
Some of you people have downright bizarre stances/takes on the issue/lines n the sand....


Whats your non-bizzare stance btw?


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/23 20:08:38


Post by: Ouze


I have no problem ostracising people who engage in extreme behavior that is deleterious to a civil society, but scalping seems kinda... not quite rising to that bar?

As someone who is always on the wrong side of product shortages, it really begins and ends with the manufacturer, especially when the "shortage" is totally, wholly artificial. If you can't get a limited run mini for less than $100, maybe blame Games Workshop for artificially limiting the run so small. Otherwise. as someone else already mentioned, make sure you never give a game to anyone who ever bought a limited run mini for over MSRP, since they are equally to blame.



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 01:56:55


Post by: DeathKorp_Rider


Honestly I’d be more concerned with their attitude. If they act all high and mighty then no.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 03:15:59


Post by: H.B.M.C.


But isn't that the same of, well, everybody? I don't see what being or not being a scalper would have to do with that.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 07:44:46


Post by: tneva82


 Ketara wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Scalpers aren't going to sit on a box for six months, they want - need - to flip them quickly. That's what makes them the profit.


Not true. You ever seen goldfishblue on ebay? He combs the auctions and other places for limited edition and out of production warhammer. Grabs it low, buys it for an insane markup and sits on it until he gets it. We're talking fifty quid or the like for a Tallarn Heavy weapons team. Ridiculously over-priced. He's a scalper, by any reasonable definition.

I could sit around and fume until steam comes out my ears, because his habits stop me being able to pick up that kind of stuff at a lower price on ebay (he buys up what becomes available, after all, and bids on even what he doesn't win). But whilst I'll freely admit it irritates the hell out of me seeing stuff at that kind of price and knowing he's probably driving up prices all over the shop; I don't think he's a bad person for it. He's just a bloke trying to turn a buck and make a living.


If he wants to make a living there's this thing called "work".


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 08:31:46


Post by: Cronch


Now now, people who do phone scams claiming they're from the IRS are also just trying to make a living, don't be mean to them.
No, scalping isn't anywhere near as bad as scamming, but it's still a "sevice" no one needs that is harmful to the customers as a whole.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 10:00:12


Post by: Lammia


Like hege fund managing


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 13:23:23


Post by: Ouze


Cronch wrote:
Now now, people who do phone scams claiming they're from the IRS are also just trying to make a living, don't be mean to them.
No, scalping isn't anywhere near as bad as scamming, but it's still a "sevice" no one needs that is harmful to the customers as a whole.


Would you play with a jaywalker?

What if I worked at a fast food place that served really unhealthy food, like McDonalds?

I'm still not sure we even really got a great definition of what a scalper even is. When Tariana Palos was announced for preorder, I ordered 2 ($35 each), kept one, and sold the other one on ebay for $75 when they finally released 6 months later. The prevailing cost was around $100. Am I a scalper? It's the only mini I've ever flipped in that fashion, do I deserve to never get a game again?

What about the person who bought the mini for $75?


What about the Games Workshop employees that decided they are only going to produce 500 minis when they know that many thousands of players worldwide would surely desire them, and buy them at MSRP? They already have the molds, they could turn out a few thousand more for 5 cents a shot, but they would prefer to create artificial scarcity... that they don't even profit from. Do they have clean hands?



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 13:27:14


Post by: Rihgu


What about the person who bought the mini for $75?

This is a very interesting question. What about the abused party!? They surely are just as bad as the abuser. They both participated, after all. Surely they are both on the exact same moral standing. If you wouldn't play with a scalper, it would be hypocritical to play with a scalpee!


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 13:32:42


Post by: Ouze


Does the person who bought the mini for $75 have absolutely no agency? I never bought a plastic mini at gunpoint before.

The prevailing cost of the mini was $100, as I said. Do you think getting it for $25 less than the other auctions made them feel victimized?


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 13:39:27


Post by: Rihgu


They have agency to
1) not buy the model
2) buy the model at 75$
3) buy the model at 100$.

Their choice to
4) buy the model at 35$

was taken away by somebody who shall not be named.
I'm sure paying 40$ more than MSRP probably made the buyer feel a little bit victimized, unless they were planning on selling it for 100$ anyways. Wow, it's kinda strange how when you frame it from your perspective, it seems like a positive thing, but any other perspective it isn't so positive!


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 13:41:19


Post by: kirotheavenger


Would you like to be praised as a saint for having scalped less than the other scalpers? Or having only done it once?

I agree that scalping isn't a black and white issue, you're not instantly declared ex-communicae traitoris.

But at the same time, scalping isn't black and white. Falling short of the other scalpers doesn't mean I don't hate the practice of buying up multiple highly limited miniatures for the specific purpose of immediately flipping them at above RRP.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 13:43:04


Post by: Ouze


Rihgu wrote:
They have agency to
1) not buy the model
2) buy the model at 75$
3) buy the model at 100$.

Their choice to
4) buy the model at 35$

was taken away by somebody who shall not be named.
I'm sure paying 40$ more than MSRP probably made the buyer feel a little bit victimized, unless they were planning on selling it for 100$ anyways. Wow, it's kinda strange how when you frame it from your perspective, it seems like a positive thing, but any other perspective it isn't so positive!


Is the someone who shall not be named:

1.) The buyer themselves who has the same opportunity I did to buy the mini at MSRP - it was for sale for a week, after all, and chose not to? Maybe they didn't want to wait 6 months for it to be delivered, or

2.) The billion dollar corporation who chose to only produce a small, limited run despite being able to easily meet customer need if they wanted to? or,

3.) Me

If it's only 3), why do the other 2 have clean hands and I do not?


Wow, it's kinda strange how when you frame it from your perspective, it seems like the billion dollar corporation - the only one in this equation with the ability to easily obviate the entire situation - has absolutely no role in it!



 kirotheavenger wrote:
Would you like to be praised as a saint for having scalped less than the other scalpers? Or having only done it once?



Don't invent something no one suggested. However, the flip side very much does exist: there are people in this thread clearly and unambiguously saying I should never get a game again for my sin. In fact, it's the entire premise of the thread.



Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 13:54:39


Post by: Rihgu


If it's only 3), why do the other 2 have clean hands and I do not?

What if... nobody has "clean" hands (whatever metric we want to use for that)? However, the person taking advantage of the facts of point 2 to fleece the person in point 1 generally seems like the dirtiest hands there.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 14:02:30


Post by: Jacksmiles


Rihgu wrote:
What about the person who bought the mini for $75?

This is a very interesting question. What about the abused party!? They surely are just as bad as the abuser. They both participated, after all. Surely they are both on the exact same moral standing. If you wouldn't play with a scalper, it would be hypocritical to play with a scalpee!


Abused party lmao

Feels like you're really stretching to make someone doing this once or once in a while into a Very Bad Person.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 14:07:13


Post by: marxlives


 oni wrote:
I suppose there's a threshold.

If I buy two of something to effectively make my $$$ back by selling one... is that still worth being ostracized?


Sounds alot like covetousness. By the OP's logic we should refuse to play with someone who is an online retailer. Instead of refusing to play against the guy, how about befriend them and see if you can get a friend discount off of product.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ouze wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
They have agency to
1) not buy the model
2) buy the model at 75$
3) buy the model at 100$.

Their choice to
4) buy the model at 35$

was taken away by somebody who shall not be named.
I'm sure paying 40$ more than MSRP probably made the buyer feel a little bit victimized, unless they were planning on selling it for 100$ anyways. Wow, it's kinda strange how when you frame it from your perspective, it seems like a positive thing, but any other perspective it isn't so positive!


Is the someone who shall not be named:

1.) The buyer themselves who has the same opportunity I did to buy the mini at MSRP - it was for sale for a week, after all, and chose not to? Maybe they didn't want to wait 6 months for it to be delivered, or

2.) The billion dollar corporation who chose to only produce a small, limited run despite being able to easily meet customer need if they wanted to? or,

3.) Me

If it's only 3), why do the other 2 have clean hands and I do not?


Wow, it's kinda strange how when you frame it from your perspective, it seems like the billion dollar corporation - the only one in this equation with the ability to easily obviate the entire situation - has absolutely no role in it!



 kirotheavenger wrote:
Would you like to be praised as a saint for having scalped less than the other scalpers? Or having only done it once?



Don't invent something no one suggested. However, the flip side very much does exist: there are people in this thread clearly and unambiguously saying I should never get a game again for my sin. In fact, it's the entire premise of the thread.



This is a perspective shift I have noticed on a generational level. Gen X "Corporations can't be people", millenials "Corporations are the best people, especially if they are from Silicon Valley", Zoomers "Corporations are my mommy and daddy!"


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 14:12:19


Post by: kirotheavenger


I've never seen anyone praising GW's forced FOMO marketing, in fact I see it disparaged every time it crops up.

Similarly "I'm not the only guilty party" or "I'm not the worst one" is not a defence.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 14:16:44


Post by: Ouze


I don't need a defense because I didn't do anything wrong.

I wish I lived where you guys did, where apparently there are so many people lined up to play games with you, that you need to invent increasingly arbitrary and nebulous reasons to winnow that crowd down.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 14:17:40


Post by: Rihgu


This is a perspective shift I have noticed on a generational level. Gen X "Corporations can't be people", millenials "Corporations are the best people, especially if they are from Silicon Valley", Zoomers "Corporations are my mommy and daddy!"

I have never, ever, once seen a millennial or zoomer express any opinion even close to either of those things, and if anything the Gen X sentiment has grown less favorable to corporations as generations move on.

If a corporation creates false scarcity to manipulate people with FOMO, that's just a corporation being a corporation, and that's the reality we have to live in. When an individual decides to add an extra layer to that, driving further false scarcity for personal gain... that's an individual making a choice.

Feels like you're really stretching to make someone doing this once or once in a while into a Very Bad Person.

Why do you feel like that?


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 14:19:22


Post by: Ouze


Rihgu wrote:
If a corporation creates false scarcity to manipulate people with FOMO, that's just a corporation being a corporation, and that's the reality we have to live in. When an individual decides to add an extra layer to that, driving further false scarcity for personal gain... that's an individual making a choice.


Wow.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 14:34:32


Post by: Jacksmiles


Rihgu wrote:


Feels like you're really stretching to make someone doing this once or once in a while into a Very Bad Person.

Why do you feel like that?


Pretty disingenuous question, given that reading this thread shows the answer pretty readily. It's very clear some people in here believe it to be the deepest depth of immorality, explicitly stated in some cases you deserve daily Very Nasty Things to happen to you for daring to do such a thing. I'm surprised some of you can even read the thread from the top of that incredibly tall horse. I mean, you're going so far as to say Ouze abused someone for doing this once.

I don't plan to answer any other bad faith questions, so I may not be able to engage this thread further.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 14:45:31


Post by: Rihgu


Jacksmiles wrote:
Rihgu wrote:


Feels like you're really stretching to make someone doing this once or once in a while into a Very Bad Person.

Why do you feel like that?


Pretty disingenuous question, given that reading this thread shows the answer pretty readily. It's very clear some people in here believe it to be the deepest depth of immorality, explicitly stated in some cases you deserve daily Very Nasty Things to happen to you for daring to do such a thing. I'm surprised some of you can even read the thread from the top of that incredibly tall horse. I mean, you're going so far as to say Ouze abused someone for doing this once.


Why do you feel like I'm saying any of those things when I haven't? I haven't said anybody deserves Very Nasty Things or even that anybody is evil. Just that the abuser has less moral standing than the abusee. I was shocked that anybody would try to portray the person who bought from them as somehow on the same moral standing.
What exactly would you call charging somebody 40$ more than the evil multi-billion dollar corporation decided a product was worth, for the crime of not buying it during the slim window of availability? Which could be for any number of reasons (ignorance, not having available money to spend on it, wanting to sell it for 100$, and more). It's certainly taking advantage of them, to some extent. Unless, of course, they're buying it to re-sell at the higher price. I could call it something else, but I'm not certain of the correct word. It's an abuse of the scalper's ability to buy the product. Perhaps I should just refer to the "abusee" as a victim?
Does performing abuse once make it not abuse? If I spout verbal abuse at somebody, but only do it once, is it not actually verbal abuse? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Very curious about what words you're going to put into my mouth next, at least! Maybe you'll have me go into more details about the Very Nasty Things I apparently wish to happen to people?


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 14:50:49


Post by: the_scotsman


Jacksmiles wrote:
Rihgu wrote:


Feels like you're really stretching to make someone doing this once or once in a while into a Very Bad Person.

Why do you feel like that?


Pretty disingenuous question, given that reading this thread shows the answer pretty readily. It's very clear some people in here believe it to be the deepest depth of immorality, explicitly stated in some cases you deserve daily Very Nasty Things to happen to you for daring to do such a thing. I'm surprised some of you can even read the thread from the top of that incredibly tall horse. I mean, you're going so far as to say Ouze abused someone for doing this once.

I don't plan to answer any other bad faith questions, so I may not be able to engage this thread further.


Obviously not. Obviously, there are degrees to any bad thing, however it is a fact of how humans work that the closer something is to us, the closer it is to affecting us, the more we are going to care about it.

If your friend takes something worth 10$ from a store without paying for it, the magnitude of what was taken is 10$. however, context matters

-did he accidentally take something from a grocery store, not notice, and then once in the parking lot express that he just didnt feel like going through the hassle of going back in and paying for it?

In this context, you've got a large corporation being affected that you don't personally have any stake in, and the thing that happened was at least initially unintentional.

-did he take something from a person you don't know, but purposefully, like taking a 10$ bill that was hanging out of someone's pocket, or watch someone drop a 10$ bill and he picked it up and didn't tell them about it?

In this context you've got an individual person, but a stranger, and the thing that happened was wholly intentional.

-did he take something from someone you do know, like walking out of your local game shop with 10$ of paint in his pocket and you know the local shop owner personally?

The value of the interaction is the same, but the proximity to the thing affecting you and your life personally adds moral value to the infraction in your eyes. This is hypocrisy, but it is essentially a near universal human condition. You will care more morally about an object of the same value stolen from a stranger and stolen from your grandma.

Everyone has a particular, personal line where they consider the actions of another person to be morally reprehensible enough to stop willingly interact with them, and it's clear from the thread that most people consider scalping to be, at least somewhat, a way of taking additional money from someone that they wouldn't ordinarily spend, in the same way that someone might consider any kind of transaction where you know you're being gouged due to the unavailability of the thing you're looking to buy a "Semi-Theft".

You know when you go to a convention center that they aren't *technically* stealing from you by charging 25$ for a hot dog, but you definitely know that it is, in some way, a bs transaction. Everyone's got a moral line where the price of a bottle of water at a convention center goes from "Ok, i get it, this is a way they have to cover the cost of the venue..." to "alright this is crap, you can't charge this." The question, as it is with almost every one of these conversations, is where the line is. Getting indignant and being like "OH, so if ONE TIME i buy two of a model and i sell that model for ONE DOLLAR more than MSRP I'm an evil person the same as hitler and I deserve to be hanged???" is just....obviously not, dude. Obviously there's a line, and you've obviously placed an example well behind that line as a hyperbolic argument.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 15:10:53


Post by: kirotheavenger


Bravo Scotsman, well put


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 15:28:01


Post by: Ouze


 the_scotsman wrote:
The question, as it is with almost every one of these conversations, is where the line is. Getting indignant and being like "OH, so if ONE TIME i buy two of a model and i sell that model for ONE DOLLAR more than MSRP I'm an evil person the same as hitler and I deserve to be hanged???" is just....obviously not, dude. .


Don't make up an argument. No one is claiming I am hitler and deserve to be hanged. However, people are actually arguing that people who sell models for over MSRP deserve to never get a game again; in fact it is the premise of the thread.

I get we all have our own moral compass of course; for me clearly I am OK with charging above MSRP for a model, but my personal line at skullduggery ends at (hypothetically) claiming you need a liter and a half of resin to 3D print 10 orks. We all sin in our own ways, I guess


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 15:33:00


Post by: Jacksmiles


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Bravo Scotsman, well put


It was indeed well put, but I disagree with the equivalency of the example at the end. Buying a hot dog at a convention center (especially if you're not allowed outside food) is a very different situation than choosing to spend twice as much on a luxury item. People need to eat- that model isn't a requirement, but it certainly is cool.

And don't act like I'm the only one getting hyperbolic in here, I'm reacting to hyperbole as well.

@Rihgu

"the crime of not buying it during the slim window of availability"

"[comparing this to verbal abuse]"

"Maybe you'll have me go into more details about the Very Nasty Things I apparently wish to happen to people?" This type of question is always dumb. Imagine accusing someone of putting words in your mouth by putting words in their mouth. You say I put words in your mouth but ignore that I was very obviously referring in this part to another poster's comments about cats gaking in shoes or some such thing. My statement was "It's very clear some people in here believe it to be the deepest depth of immorality, explicitly stated in some cases you deserve daily Very Nasty Things to happen to you for daring to do such a thing." We want to get pedantic? I never said you were the one that said that.

"Perhaps I should just refer to the "abusee" as a victim?" Perhaps you shouldn't see these people as victims when they are not being coerced or forced into anything. Or even actually abused.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 15:34:15


Post by: Ouze


Don't forget putting a mini for sale on ebay as being comparable to a "semi-theft".

What a thread.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 16:04:05


Post by: Rihgu


Jacksmiles wrote:


"Maybe you'll have me go into more details about the Very Nasty Things I apparently wish to happen to people?" This type of question is always dumb. Imagine accusing someone of putting words in your mouth by putting words in their mouth. You say I put words in your mouth but ignore that I was very obviously referring in this part to another poster's comments about cats gaking in shoes or some such thing. My statement was "It's very clear some people in here believe it to be the deepest depth of immorality, explicitly stated in some cases you deserve daily Very Nasty Things to happen to you for daring to do such a thing." We want to get pedantic? I never said you were the one that said that.

Well, sorry for thinking your non-sequitur had anything to do with the conversation at hand. I asked why you felt I was "really stretching to make someone doing this once or once in a while into a Very Bad Person", and you replied with that. If you're talking exclusively about other people, and not me, and not answering the question, I'm not sure where it comes into the conversation at all. It was not obvious to me, and I hadn't seen the poster's comments about cats or whatever. Apologies for misinterpreting it.

"Perhaps I should just refer to the "abusee" as a victim?" Perhaps you shouldn't see these people as victims when they are not being coerced or forced into anything. Or even actually abused.

I don't know what else to see them as. You're right, they could just not buy the models. But... if they want the models... they're forced to buy from scalpers... so...


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 16:15:54


Post by: Jacksmiles


Rihgu wrote:
Jacksmiles wrote:


"Maybe you'll have me go into more details about the Very Nasty Things I apparently wish to happen to people?" This type of question is always dumb. Imagine accusing someone of putting words in your mouth by putting words in their mouth. You say I put words in your mouth but ignore that I was very obviously referring in this part to another poster's comments about cats gaking in shoes or some such thing. My statement was "It's very clear some people in here believe it to be the deepest depth of immorality, explicitly stated in some cases you deserve daily Very Nasty Things to happen to you for daring to do such a thing." We want to get pedantic? I never said you were the one that said that.

Well, sorry for thinking your non-sequitur had anything to do with the conversation at hand. I asked why you felt I was "really stretching to make someone doing this once or once in a while into a Very Bad Person", and you replied with that. If you're talking exclusively about other people, and not me, and not answering the question, I'm not sure where it comes into the conversation at all. It was not obvious to me, and I hadn't seen the poster's comments about cats or whatever. Apologies for misinterpreting it.


Apology accepted, that was coming off my "reading the thread makes it clear" comment. Apologies for not being more clear that it was calling it abuse that makes me believe you specifically are stretching real hard. However, I did kind of use it also as the royal "you" for people arguing similarly to your side, because I believe them to be stretching as well. It was kind of an overall answer so it wasn't exclusively about others. My bad for being unclear. Hopefully now you understand how it comes into the conversation, because the whole thread is the conversation, not just our replies to each other.

"Perhaps I should just refer to the "abusee" as a victim?" Perhaps you shouldn't see these people as victims when they are not being coerced or forced into anything. Or even actually abused.

I don't know what else to see them as. You're right, they could just not buy the models. But... if they want the models... they're forced to buy from scalpers... so...


So..it's abuse? I will respectfully just disagree on this point again. If they want the models, they're making a choice. Just because you can word it as "they're forced to buy from scalpers" doesn't actually mean they're actually being forced into anything.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 16:51:56


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


If you don’t have a problem with scalpers, how about recasters and their customers?

I tend to view GW as the primary culprit here, so I tend to sympathize more with people who buy recasts. I’d be more likely to befriend a gamer openly using recasts than a gamer openly scalping*. I find the recasting market to be a more …healthy? reaction to GW pricing and forced scarcity than preying on fellow gamers—the financial damage is more directly on GW rather than their customers.



*And I mean the type of scalper who buys multiple copies to create additional scarcity and control the second hand market prices, not necessarily someone who flips one or two items because of a rare opportunity.

On a sort-of related note, Locally, there are often Bring ‘n’ Buy trades, and the attendees tend to split into two groups: people who are trying to move old stuff out and people trying to make a lot of money. As someone who was willing to sell at lower prices to send unwanted minis to a good home, I tended to gravitate towards likeminded gamers. The people who wanted to sell the same items for high prices tended not to appreciate that, and were generally not as easy to get along with. Without even getting into scalping, there was already enough difference in mindset to create uncomfortable tension. That mild discomfort alone would make me not want to talk with someone or spend time with them.


 Ouze wrote:
I don't need a defense because I didn't do anything wrong.

I wish I lived where you guys did, where apparently there are so many people lined up to play games with you, that you need to invent increasingly arbitrary and nebulous reasons to winnow that crowd down.


It is pretty sweet.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 18:22:37


Post by: Necrosis


Let's talk about the negative impact Scalpers have on Games Workshop and other businesses.

Why don't we start and look at a very extreme example, the Play Station 5 and how it affects, say, Sony and developers. At first, you may think that it doesn't have any negative impact on Sony. Sony makes a Play Station 5, and scalpers buy it. End of story, right? Wrong. Let's take a look at a person who might buy a PS5 off a scalper. We will call this person Bobby. Bobby buys a PS5 off a scalper but has paid so much money that he is unwilling to spend too much more due to him having a budget. As a result, he might not buy that 2nd controller or that expensive headset. Now not everyone is going to be like Bobby. Some will still shell out the extra money, but there will be many people like Bobby, which means lost sales for Sony.

In addition, let's take a look at developers who released their games on, say, Day 1. Do you think these scalpers who bought 1000 PS5 will buy games released on day 1? Of course not. Here is where I want to bring in someone else. Let’s call him Jimmy. Jimmy is the type of person who says, "F U scalpers, I am going to wait." Jimmy waits for several months (or even a year) before he finally gets his PS5. Games released on Day 1 don't interest him, as newer games are now out. This means the developers have now lost money due to the actions of scalpers.

Now some of you might be going at this point, "Well, that is Sony/Playstation, that is different from Games Workshop and doesn't apply here!" I would say it kind of depends. I mean, let's retake a look at Bobby. Let’s say he wants to buy a model that he needs for his army. He now spends, says, an extra 40 dollars on it. That is another 40 dollars he could have spent on other GW products. If Bobby had that extra 40 dollars, he might have spent, say, an additional 20 on other GW products. That means the scalpers cost GW 20 dollars. Let's now go back to Jimmy, who is waiting. Jimmy gets distracted and finds another hobby, be it another tabletop game, a card game, a video game, or another hobby. Well, now, GW has just lost a customer.

Scalpers are a poison. They are bad for the Customer (making them pay more money), they are bad for Games Workshop (cutting into GW profits), and they are bad for the community (reducing the number of people in the community). Let's compare a Scalper to a 3rd party retailer or someone who 3d prints a model and sells it. Well, yes, they are cutting into GW profit, so bad for GW. But they are probably selling it for cheaper, so that is good for the customer. They can also make models unique or even provide an alternative for people to join in the hobby, so good for the community. There are pros and cons with 3rd printers and 3rd party sellers, but with scalpers, only cons.

If you wish to play with a known Scalper, go right ahead, that is your choice. The best solution to Scalpers, though, is simply not to buy from them. But do understand where I come from when I don't want to play versus them, due to the fact that I and others have left some games/hobbies because of them and I see how bad they are for these games.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 18:40:39


Post by: Ouze


 Necrosis wrote:
Now some of you might be going at this point, "Well, that is Sony/Playstation, that is different from Games Workshop and doesn't apply here!" I would say it kind of depends. I mean, let's retake a look at Bobby. Let’s say he wants to buy a model that he needs for his army. He now spends, says, an extra 40 dollars on it. That is another 40 dollars he could have spent on other GW products. If Bobby had that extra 40 dollars, he might have spent, say, an additional 20 on other GW products. That means the scalpers cost GW 20 dollars. Let's now go back to Jimmy, who is waiting. Jimmy gets distracted and finds another hobby, be it another tabletop game, a card game, a video game, or another hobby. Well, now, GW has just lost a customer.


Waving aside the idea anyone needs a plastic army doll - why did Games Workshop make so few of the thing that Jimmy "needed"?

In the example of the PS5, there is a chip shortage, so it's actual scarcity. Sony would very, very much like for everyone who wanted a PS5 to be able to buy one off the shelf at a walmart for MSRP.

In Games Workshops case with the limited edition stuff, it's wholly artificial scarcity. It's apples and oranges.

Totally unclear why Games Workshop is wholly absolved of the "injury" (they inflicted on themselves): they have the molds, they did the R&D, they know they could sell thousands of a nice mini, it would be profitable for them to do so since it only costs them a few cents per shot once said R&D and moldmaking is done, and yet they chose to create artificial scarcity instead. Totally blameless, for some reason.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 19:25:36


Post by: Necrosis


 Ouze wrote:
Waving aside the idea anyone needs a plastic army doll - why did Games Workshop make so few of the thing that Jimmy "needed"?

In the example of the PS5, there is a chip shortage, so it's actual scarcity. Sony would very, very much like for everyone who wanted a PS5 to be able to buy one off the shelf at a walmart for MSRP.

In Games Workshops case with the limited edition stuff, it's wholly artificial scarcity. It's apples and oranges.

Totally unclear why Games Workshop is wholly absolved of the "injury" (they inflicted on themselves): they have the molds, they did the R&D, they know they could sell thousands of a nice mini, it would be profitable for them to do so since it only costs them a few cents per shot once said R&D and moldmaking is done, and yet they chose to create artificial scarcity instead. Totally blameless, for some reason.


Why did they make so little you ask, well why are they behind schedule, why are they suddenly cancelling products because they are having their own shortage. Running a miniature company requires a lot of things to work right, you need to have your factories and you need to have their supplies to make not only the miniatures but everything that comes with them, including packaging, plastic, cardboard and etc. You also need to deal with logistics, sending your product overseas. If one thing goes wrong, if one thing is in short supplies, guess what, you now have a shortage. I work in the car manufacturing industry, laid off because we can't get a certain type of chip. GW is probably having a similar issue.

Your argument is basically because GW punched themselves (which they may have not), its now okay for scalpers to punch both GW and Bobby. If someone injured themselves, it's okay for other people to now to start to injury them as well.

I don't know about you, but I want to see this hobby grow even more and have more people join in. As I pointed out in my previous post, Scalpers are a gatekeeper, they may not be the only gatekeeper but they are one.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 20:46:50


Post by: Ouze


 Necrosis wrote:
If one thing goes wrong, if one thing is in short supplies, guess what, you now have a shortage. I work in the car manufacturing industry, laid off because we can't get a certain type of chip. GW is probably having a similar issue.


You think Games Workshop ran short of plastic maybe?

You are going through all these weird arguments when Games Workshop announced these would be a limited edition item, a FOMO sale (they got dragged at the time, if I recall). This was their stated plan - to only make a few of them - and advertised it by saying you are gonna miss out if you don't order one fast! And now that there are too few, look at the unspeakable mental contortions you are pulling to try to make sure the sole party responsible for the product shortage isn't held responsible for the (planned, by them) scarcity.

Why are you doing that? What do you get out of it?


Remember, it doesn't have to be this way. When Indominatus sold out and people were upset, they changed course and... decided to make more. That was always an option!


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 21:33:03


Post by: stroller


"Crime" is a little excessive here.

It isn't a crime to only make a run of 1,000, or 10,000, or whatever.

It isn't a crime to buy up whatever new stock you can, and sell it on at a profit.

It isn't a crime to pay over the odds for something in short supply.

It may be daft, or greedy, or selfish....


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/24 23:57:43


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I remain impossibly amused and bemused that this thread has made it to 6 pages. /


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 00:27:57


Post by: posermcbogus


Rihgu wrote:
Perhaps I should just refer to the "abusee" as a victim?


Dude, what the actual feth are you talking about ahahahaha, the logical backflips you're pulling off to try and paint scalpers as the absolute worst is NUTTY.

No-one here likes how prevalent scalping has become, and the markups they're able to pull on what really works out as an inconvenience. But the buyers are 100% not even close to victims. Buyers are the ones facilitating these crazy prices, buyers are encouraging scalpers to swipe up as much stock as possible, buyers are the ones making scalping so lucrative in this one specific fandom. GW certainly don't help anyone with their latest FOMO nonsense, but trying to paint people who actively go out, buy limited run luxury goods for marked up prices are not victims, they aren't abused, they're whales who really want a little plastic space man with a certain head, or plasma pistol, and they're too lazy, or completionist, or deep into the "GW is the best" cool-aid to try and make their own.

Scalpers aren't cool, but like, they aren't horrible boogiemen, they're just people looking to make money off of the self-imposed limits GW have in terms of production runs. It's annoying, as a hobbyist, certainly, but calling them abusers??? Holy fething gak. Getting past scalpers is easy dude, just don't buy what they're selling. Miss out on something you wanted? Man, it sucks, but whoop-de-doo, life goes on, get over it, keep your eyes peeled, maybe 5 years down the line you'll get a chance to pick it up for an okay price.

Say it with me everyone - "scalpers are only allowed to exist because the community facilitates their continued existence."


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 00:55:18


Post by: Rihgu


Dude, what the actual feth are you talking about ahahahaha, the logical backflips you're pulling off to try and paint scalpers as the absolute worst is NUTTY.

That's not something I'm doing, actually.

I like how I say "abuser" and everybody instantly jumps to like, black eyed wives or something, when I even use verbal abuse as my example anyways.
Yelling at somebody is abuse. Swearing at somebody is abuse. There are tiers of abuse.
People who perform abuse are not "the absolute worst".


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 01:44:07


Post by: posermcbogus


Abuse means abuse. Someone flipping a luxury item that is no longer readily available for more than it's worth is not abuse. Choosing to buy something is not being abused.

I absolutely agree, verbal abuse is abuse, but that is going out of your way and inflicting something on someone who is innocent. Being on ebay, and bidding on a limited edition cadian makes you an active participant in the process, whether you are being scalped or not. They are not victims, and the only thing the scalpers are doing is being good at sounding out just what whales will pay for silly little plastic space men.

BTW, shoutout to the way you dodged engaging meaningfully like, my entire post? to project about me accusing you of talking about violent abuse when all I said was that you likening being scalped to abuse is ridiculous (because it is. Maybe reflect on why so many users have called this out?) real peak "I can't be wrong on the internet" behavior there, champ. Great job!


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 02:11:24


Post by: Rihgu


BTW, shoutout to the way you dodged engaging meaningfully like, my entire post? to project about me accusing you of talking about violent abuse when all I said was that you likening being scalped to abuse is ridiculous (because it is. Maybe reflect on why so many users have called this out?) real peak "I can't be wrong on the internet" behavior there, champ. Great job!


I engaged with the part that I felt was worth engaging with. I've made my opinions on the matter fairly clear in the thread, you seem set in your opinion. How many pages do you want to go back and forth meaninglessly, I guess?

For the most part, I actually agree with your post. Like, the meaningful content in it. I disagree with some details, re: abuse and what counts or doesn't count as it. But yea, to quote you
Scalpers aren't cool, but like, they aren't horrible boogiemen, they're just people looking to make money off of the self-imposed limits GW have in terms of production runs. It's annoying, as a hobbyist, certainly


There, have I engaged meaningfully yet? Are you satisfied?


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 05:46:13


Post by: posermcbogus


How are scalpers abusing you? Like, it's not an opinion, you're just misusing the word. My post is significantly about, yes, getting priced out of something because you weren't fast enough to get it at retail feelsbadman.jpg, but "people who buy from scalpers are victims" is just nonsense.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 07:50:18


Post by: kirotheavenger


If scalpers aren't abusing their buyers (I would agree with the sentiment that you could better describe said buyers as whales), are they perhaps abusing me?
There are kits and releases I would very much like to have, but cannot, because they sold out too damn quick and are going on eBay for too damn much.

You can argue that a few extra kits going to scalpers is not significant, but the fact is for every box a scalper bought; somewhere, someone, missed out on buying it RRP.

This is why I hate scalpers. This discussion has gone to 6 pages because the issue is close to our hearts, and we're all bored and stubborn.
I don't think scalpers are anywhere near the most morally objectionable people, and pertinent to the thread title I'd still be willing to play you (unless they were proud and bragging about it), then I'd play my arranged game and never engage again.

Nor do I think scalpers are the only link in the chain enabling their behaviour. By they are a link, and a rotten link I'd rather didn't exist.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 14:11:13


Post by: Ouze


 kirotheavenger wrote:
You can argue that a few extra kits going to scalpers is not significant, but the fact is for every box a scalper bought; somewhere, someone, missed out on buying it RRP.


But is it a fact? It is not. For the FOMO things, the window is a week or even two weeks. It's not like video cards, where they sell out in seconds. People had kind of a minute to get these kits and didn't (I know it happens both ways, though).

Again, not sure why people are willing to go through these mental contortions to avoid admitting Games Workshop is the sole party responsible for the artificial scarcity, they plan, announce, and implement these conditions, they could end these situations at any time if they wanted to, and have at least once done just that due to customer pressure. Why aren't you guys harassing GWS about this? They are the ones creating the conditions in which scalpers and recasters thrive.

Also, I know it sounds like I am pro-scalper, but I'm not really. I'm just willing to draw a distinction between someone who flips a few kits once in a while, and the person who buys every single model on the shelf from every local gaming store and throws them on ebay for 200% markup.





Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 14:18:14


Post by: Rihgu


Again, not sure why people are willing to go through these mental contortions to avoid admitting Games Workshop is the sole party responsible for the artificial scarcity, they plan, announce, and implement these conditions, they could end these situations at any time if they wanted to, and have at least once done just that due to customer pressure.


Is anybody doing that? Most of the conversation is around the people taking advantage of the artificial scarcity - the scalpers. I don't think anybody is trying to say the scalpers are responsible for that.

Also, I know it sounds like I am pro-scalper, but I'm not really. I'm just willing to draw a distinction between someone who flips a few kits once in a while, and the person who buys every single model on the shelf from every local gaming store and throws them on ebay for 200% markup.

I'd also dare say most participants in this thread, even on the anti-scalper side, are willing to draw that distinction.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 14:48:58


Post by: Nurglitch


It's not artificial scarcity. Between predicting exactly how much product will be needed, and rounding up or down, one is impossible, and one leaves you with unsold product it cost to make. The only sensible solution is to round down on your production estimate so you're not left with an expensive warehouse of unsold product. GW learned its lesson from over-estimating demand.

Stonemaier Games also got these accusations when demand for their products outstripped their production estimates: https://stonemaiergames.com/the-truth-about-stonemaier-games/


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 14:58:47


Post by: Ouze


 Nurglitch wrote:
It's not artificial scarcity. Between predicting exactly how much product will be needed, and rounding up or down, one is impossible, and one leaves you with unsold product it cost to make. The only sensible solution is to round down on your production estimate so you're not left with an expensive warehouse of unsold product.


They literally market them as FOMO sales. They hope to drive sales by injecting needless scarcity. We don't need to invent reasons why this happens out of thin air when they literally tell us in plain language why these products are hard to find - they intend for that to be the case.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 15:00:46


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Ouze wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
You can argue that a few extra kits going to scalpers is not significant, but the fact is for every box a scalper bought; somewhere, someone, missed out on buying it RRP.


But is it a fact? It is not. For the FOMO things, the window is a week or even two weeks. It's not like video cards, where they sell out in seconds. People had kind of a minute to get these kits and didn't (I know it happens both ways, though).

Are these things limited by time or quantity?
Did GW decide to sell the product for a week, and chucked remaining stock in the bin after that time? Or is it that all copies sold out in a week?
They're limited by quantity, that means every copy that went to a scalper didn't go to someone else. Sure, it wouldn't have gone to the whale that buys it off eBay two months down the line, it would have gone to the average Joe that walked into the shop on the 8th day (assuming it sold out in 7).

Not that I even agree with your claim of a week, often this stuff sells out in mere hours, some of the Necromunda stuff has sold out in minutes before and that stuff's not even advertised as limited edition.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 15:02:34


Post by: Ouze


I actually found the sale and linked it above. It was a 2 week window.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 15:03:42


Post by: A.T.


 Ouze wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
You can argue that a few extra kits going to scalpers is not significant, but the fact is for every box a scalper bought; somewhere, someone, missed out on buying it RRP.
But is it a fact? It is not. For the FOMO things, the window is a week or even two weeks. It's not like video cards, where they sell out in seconds. People had kind of a minute to get these kits and didn't (I know it happens both ways, though).
It is accurate for anything with limited supply - either limited total supply or limited supply for a period of time, for the latter the pandemic toilet paper scapters would be an example.

People who buy something with effectively unlimited availability and sell it on later are not scalpers, just resellers.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 15:06:48


Post by: Ouze


A.T. wrote:
for the latter the pandemic toilet paper scapters would be an example.


I would argue the toilet paper scalpers during the pandemic were actually price gougers, not scalpers. The reason I draw this distinction is because price gouging during an emergency is generally an actual crime - toilet paper, PPE, etc are a necessity as opposed to a plastic toy or concert tickets.

I mean, I know we're kind of arguing about the peas and not the steak, now.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 15:36:09


Post by: A.T.


 Ouze wrote:
I would argue the toilet paper scalpers during the pandemic were actually price gougers, not scalpers. The reason I draw this distinction is because price gouging during an emergency is generally an actual crime - toilet paper, PPE, etc are a necessity as opposed to a plastic toy or concert tickets.
It's actually a crime to scalp football tickets here.

Potato/po-tato though, definitions vary. I would personally consider price gouging in of itself to refer to the initial seller and 'scalping' to refer to price gouging by a reseller (to some degree tied in with the creation/promotion of scarcity by the resellers).


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 15:39:03


Post by: Nurglitch


 Ouze wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
It's not artificial scarcity. Between predicting exactly how much product will be needed, and rounding up or down, one is impossible, and one leaves you with unsold product it cost to make. The only sensible solution is to round down on your production estimate so you're not left with an expensive warehouse of unsold product.


They literally market them as FOMO sales. They hope to drive sales by injecting needless scarcity. We don't need to invent reasons why this happens out of thin air when they literally tell us in plain language why these products are hard to find - they intend for that to be the case.

You and I are reading that ad very differently. I suspect it's not "plain language."


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 15:54:50


Post by: Ouze


 Nurglitch wrote:
You and I are reading that ad very differently. I suspect it's not "plain language."


That's a pretty vague way of disagreeing. What is your interpretation of why these things don't mean GWS is intentionally only manufacturing a few?

Take this exclusive Sister of Battle and Terminator Librarian, for example! You have two weeks to secure these stalwart defenders of Humanity, starting RIGHT NOW, before they’re gone forever!

Just like Primaris Lieutenant Amulius, both of these models are available exclusively during a two-week Made to Order window, but they won’t ship until around the fourth quarter of 2020. Something to look forward to! Don’t let that prevent you from ordering them now, while you can – when we say they’re gone, we mean they’ll be gone for good.

I have a totally open mind as to why these statements mean something other than "GWS only made a few, and could make more, but chose not to, and hence own the scarcity of those models". I am genuinely trying to understand.







Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 16:11:02


Post by: Nurglitch


My interpretation is that GW nearly died because of over-production (non-English Specialist games if I recall the lore correctly), and Jamey Stegmaier's very good point that the option to leave money on the table can be better than over-producing and having to do something with all the unsold product, among all the other difficulties involved in production and distribution. Risk-management-wise it's sometimes better to optimize your profits rather than attempt to maximize.

Which sucks for people that wanted to buy something and can't, but it's an imperfect world. But I think GW is manufacturing less than the demand because it's all that they can do in this current supply-chain/Pandemic snafu, at least they're delivering something. Maybe they can't deliver more.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 19:17:27


Post by: marxlives


 Nurglitch wrote:
My interpretation is that GW nearly died because of over-production (non-English Specialist games if I recall the lore correctly), and Jamey Stegmaier's very good point that the option to leave money on the table can be better than over-producing and having to do something with all the unsold product, among all the other difficulties involved in production and distribution. Risk-management-wise it's sometimes better to optimize your profits rather than attempt to maximize.

Which sucks for people that wanted to buy something and can't, but it's an imperfect world. But I think GW is manufacturing less than the demand because it's all that they can do in this current supply-chain/Pandemic snafu, at least they're delivering something. Maybe they can't deliver more.


That is true. Was starting a bit before pandemic, but something is going on in the background of the industry where distribution and underproducing is not just a GW thing.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 19:39:29


Post by: Cronch


marxlives wrote:

This is a perspective shift I have noticed on a generational level. Gen X "Corporations can't be people", millenials "Corporations are the best people, especially if they are from Silicon Valley", Zoomers "Corporations are my mommy and daddy!"

Lol. I mean, that's an amazing projection, but I literally don't know a single zoomer who doesn't think Bezos should hang.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/25 20:28:51


Post by: Lammia


Cronch wrote:
marxlives wrote:

This is a perspective shift I have noticed on a generational level. Gen X "Corporations can't be people", millenials "Corporations are the best people, especially if they are from Silicon Valley", Zoomers "Corporations are my mommy and daddy!"

Lol. I mean, that's an amazing projection, but I literally don't know a single zoomer who doesn't think Bezos should hang.
It was certainly a weird take.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/28 05:47:03


Post by: Hecaton


 porkuslime wrote:
Just making sure.. you are talking about someone who buys a LOT of new kits/games and then resells them for higher funds?

(as opposed to someone recasting models or someone who takes the hair from their defeated enemies.. )


I would be happy to play with a recaster, not so much with a scalper.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/06/28 07:07:21


Post by: Dropbear Victim


I know of (don't know personally) one person who sourced 8 copies of Cursed City from overseas. Kept 1 for themselves, kept extra parts they wanted and parted out a couple more boxes and sold the rest for a profit.
I wouldn't play this particular person but its not entirely because of the scalping. This person has been loudly dismissive of people's complaints of price rises in the past while effectively getting their stuff free while profiting and recently even had allegations of rubbing against a person in a supermaket.

But I'd likely play a normal scalper. Not that I like people marking up new items.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/07/01 01:33:50


Post by: Pointer5


I guess as long as he doesn't say get your tickets here for the game continuously I'd be ok with it.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/07/01 02:50:48


Post by: thekingofkings


I don't believe in ostracizing anyone who plays fairly at the table, regardless of their beliefs, scalping is what it is. IF they are well "behaved" at the table/gamestore/club then they are fine. As a community we are divided enough over non gaming issues. You should be able to decide who you do and do not want to play with, but trying to influence others to not play with someone over something that offends you is something I do not support.


Would you play with a known scalper? @ 2021/07/01 16:40:24


Post by: Celestino2


Buy two/three sets of the same miniature: don't see a real problem with it.

Buy the whole stock and laugh as you make a profit when scarcity hits: Real donkey-cave move.

It's a mentality. the same behaviour i would argue could be easily identified in other instances of life.

I personally believe in an equitable redristribution of resources..