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Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/19 08:26:06


Post by: BrianDavion


Just wanna get this new thread started. so that we're not wading through 150 pages of old stuff. So Sisters have our new codex now, over all I'd say we came out well. it's not perfect but I'm liking the codex. so discuss thoughts and views on the codex. what's our best units? What's the least intreasting/useful. Personally I think standard Celestian Squads are pretty "why bother" now. as Dominion squads are a better "elite variation of standard sisters" and Sacrescants are the better bodyguard unit.



Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/19 10:23:21


Post by: Lammia


Lammia's list of unit hot takes:

HQ:

Morvenn Vahl - The Sister's Surpreme Commander is what I'd expect from a High Lord of Terra. I'm not fully convinced she's as impactful for Sisters as she may seem. Needs to see play.

Canoness - Is good. You'll be hard pressed to see taking one as a waste. Stick a Warlord and/or Relic on her for real value.

Palatine - Less of a beat stick than Canoness, useful aura. Worth taking.

Junith Erutia - Hard pressed to see when I would want take her, even in OoOML.

Missionary - Good source of War Hymn and can take another for when War Hymn isn't useful/available.

Celestine & Geminae Superia - 9Left to the realm of harassing stick but potentually very annoying. We will see.

Triumph of Saint Katherine - improved as a character, but lost worth in utility. Not great for a utility character. Miss.

Ephrael Stern & Kyganil of the Bloody Tears - Interesting, but not adding much new. Take or leave.

Troops:

Battle Sister Squad - Options nerfed. Still troops.

Elites:

Aestred Thurga & Agathae Dolan - Crusade twins.

Imagifier - The hit to Tale of the Stoic they tool in this Codex hurt, but that means you can take or leave them.

Dialogus - Has some utility, Good Priest. (More hymn options)

Preacher - Cheap priest. No hymn options.

Celestian Squad - backfield bodyguards.

Celestian Sacresants - Melee bodyguards. Useful for getting stuck in with characters.

Hospitaller - Not super useful, but a 6+++ aura for infantry if you want that.

Dogmata - Turtle. Good priest with good utility and can help in melee, but hurts my fluff mind.

Paragon Warsuits - looks like it'll be hurt by most things. Needs testing. Probably best with Mortifiers and Pen. Engines.

Repentia Superior - worth considering with Repentia.

Sisters Repentia - Good source of Miracle Dice and good 'cruise missile' melee unit.

Crusaders - Low cost actions.

Arco-flagellants - Effective anti-horde Melee

Death Cult Assassains - Low cost actions.

Fast Attack:

Dominion Squad - Great source of special weapon goodness. Not convinced Holy Vanguard is as good as people seem to think.

Seraphim Squad - Zephyrim are probably more useful.

Zephrim Squad - More expensive but probably more useful jetpack troops.

Heavy Support:

Retributor Squad - I guess they make the cut as a Multi-Melta squad? Idk...

Mortifiers - Likely remain a shooting/countercharge of out top lists

Penitent Engines - Charging distraction Carnifex for Mortifier/Warsuit lists?

Exocist - Lame duck tank.

Castigator - Shiny and new lame duck tank.

Dedicated Transports:

Sororitas Rhino - Useful metal box.

Immolator - Lame duck metal box.

Fortification:

Battle Sanctum - Useful, if you can deploy it.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/19 12:01:46


Post by: ERJAK


I like Lammia's format so I'm going to shamelessly copy it.

Morvenn: Good, power overblown. Nothing she can buff is scary. Make sure you kill your opponents anti-tank before she tries to Yolo it.

Celestine: Great melee beatstick and irritating to kill. Indomitable being her warlord trait makes her an excellent warlord in non-morven lists.

Stern: Diet Celestine

Junith: Maybe? Reroll hits is good and cover could be sweet, if difficult to use.

Canoness: New Super Canoness abilities mostly gimmicks, though definite niches for Bloody Rose with Word and Blade of Admonition or Rapturous Blows and Mantle. ROO mostly replaced by Morvenn.

Palantine: Fine. Generally only an option in non-Morven lists though.

Missionary: Doggak preacher. Pass. Leadership aura is a joke.

Triumph: Crap. Drop it 70pts and I'd take it for the extra dice and hide it in a corner. Otherwise useless.

Battle Sisters: Losing double stormbolters hurts, 20 blobs aren't relevant. Needs a 1ppm drop now in my opinion.

Dialogus: Best Sororitas Priest. Modifying miracle dice is sweet.

Dogmata: Don't care about obsec. Actions ability is made irrelevant by Crusaders/Deathcults. Take only if you're trying multiple large BSS squads.

Repentia Superiors: Best buff character for repentia. If you want a buff character, take her.

Imagifier: Really only useful for Sacresants and Zephyrim. Best option when looking to buff a Canoness and her escort.

Preacher: Probably best overall buff character just because he does what he's supposed to and is cheap.

Arcos: Take if you go against a lot of Eldar or aren't bloody rose. Celestine still gives them an invul, for what that's worth.

Deathcults/Crusaders: They do actions for cheap. This is valuable.

Repentia: Still great. Loss of Run and Charge means less margin for error but their ceiling actually got higher with new TTD and upgraded repentia superior completely replacing Imagifiers. Fight when they die makes them almost impossible to shift by melee if you can keep them out of LoS.

Celestians: If you want shooting escorts for characters take Dominions, if you want melee take Sacresants, if you want something that tries to do both and succeeds at neither...stop wanting that.

Sacresants: Best escort for Canonesses/Palantines in Bloody Rose. Also potential footslog niche. Stay with repentia if you want raw combat power though.

Paragons: If they drop 10ppm and any other shooting vehicle becomes useful, they might be good. Until then, underwhelming.

Hospitaller: Some utility for bringing back retributor multimeltas. Mandatory warlord if doing more than 1 big Battle Sister blob.

Dominions: Scouting transports is neat. If the immolator drops 20-30pts they'll be fierce. As it stands, solid stormbolter platform, if you want meltas just take retributors.

Seraphim: Third biggest loser in the new dex. Deadly descent ministorum flamers is...okay. Argent Shroud inferno pistols technically has the same range as dominions with meltas if they don't scout. Maybe a nich for a small unit as essentially a midgame landmine.

Zephyrim: Meh. Still only work in bloody rose, require even more resources than they used to. Higher ceiling but are you really going to spend 6CP and 2 MD on one charge? If they drop another point or two they might be good as a flight of the valkyries character escort.

Retributors: Took tons of nerfs. Still by far the best mid-long range shooting option. Probably worth an Argent Shroud Patrol for 2 units of these in 90% of lists. Heavy flamer options surprisingly viable now, especially with ignores cover. If you put them in a transport have them share with a fiver of battle sisters so they can take the casualties.

Mortifiers: Lost some stuff, gained some stuff. Zealot makes the buzz-blades scary in melee. Loss of run and charge/shoot make them a lot slower. Probably still really good in mono-non-bloody rose lists as your token melee. Take with Rhinos to confuse anti-tank.

Pengines: Only slightly different than mortifiers now. More melee focused but does less melee damage. Probably still take mortifiers but more of an option than they were.

Exorcist: Take one if you want to be a hipster. Take 2 if you just hate winning.

Castigators: LOL, NOPE.

Immolator: Can't even die right anymore.

Rhino: Need a Rhino? This is that.

Sanctum: Personally think obscuring is nerf. Only unit in the army that requires a call to your TO to reasonably take.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/19 13:33:11


Post by: Lammia


ERJAK wrote:


Immolator: Can't even die right anymore.
Ugh... I totally missed that.

Lame.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/19 13:52:42


Post by: Punisher


Punisher's first pass hot takes.

HQ:

Morvenn Vahl - Tier S: She's extremely good, tremendous buffs and at a price point where you should be able to fit her in any list. I'd expect almost every list to include her, she will likely be nerfed.

Canoness - Tier A: Still just a great cheap HQ to give re-rolls or be a beat stick. New options reduce how points effective she is but add new playstyles. Personally I'm a fan of the fight last aura that can turn off invulns.

Palatine - Tier B+: Provides a decent wound re-roll aura and is cheap. Probably no real need to take her though as Vahl's buff overlaps and well, you're taking Vahl already.

Junith Erutia - Tier C: Lost her wound re-roll aura.. Difficult to rate this one, will depend on how useful the mobile cover ability turns out. Order locked to OML so might be a while till we see enough results/testing to see if there is anything worthwhile here. 2 str6 Heavy flamers is nothing to scoff at though.

Missionary - Tier B: Cheap hq option, can provide war hymns. Useful for filling out HQ slots in detachments when mixing orders and you need/want a priest. Limited Hymn options though

Celestine & Geminae Superia - Tier B+: Great harassment unit that is difficult to kill. Has good damage output so your opponent won't want to ignore her, but with her action ability definitely demands a strong response to kill. Only issue is this unit gives up 9 assassinate points.. So your opponent will likely max that.

Triumph of Saint Katherine - Tier B: Lost a lot of utility, still an interesting choice though. Probably too expensive for what buffs she now gives though. Just take Vahl.

Ephrael Stern & Kyganil of the Bloody Tears - Tier B: Not really much here positive or negative. It's an Hq option, will perform well in close combat and has a "smite". Worth trying if you want, they won't make or break your list.


Troops:

Battle Sister Squad - Tier A: Still good, lost a weapon for msu builds but gained the ability to horde it up. Will likely see play as 5 man units or 20 man blobs and not much in between. Argent Shroud advance and shoot seems very useful for 5 man multi-melta girls, storm bolter strat and trans human seem great for 20 man blobs.

Elites:

Aestred Thurga & Agathae Dolan - Tier C: Crusade unit, seems a little off with half the rules not seeming to matter. Ability to give all sacred rites is interesting though, only once per battle but the rites are pretty great this edition.

Imagifier - Tier C-: Doesn't seem great I'd generally pass on this one.

Dialogus - Tier A: Maybe the best priest, access to all hymn options and can modify miracle dice which is important now that they are less plentiful.

Preacher - Tier A-: Dirt cheap priest for war hymn. If you want war hymn this guy gets you there and you won't pay a penny more than war hymn is worth.

Celestian Squad - Tier C: Not a terrible unit in a vacuum, but in reality your paying a premium for a unit that is going to shoot worse than other shooting options and fight worse than other combat options. I'd pass on them but they are a fine TAC option in a make my army less focused mindset.

Celestian Sacresants - Tier B+/A-: Now here is a bodyguard unit, has good combat potential, survivability and can heroically intervene to save characters or other units from combat. Weapon options likely depend on what order you are playing.

Hospitaller - Tier C: Discount apothecary, not super relevant for sisters. If you want a 6+++ she does that well, and for a CP she can revive d3 cheap sister models.

Dogmata - Tier A: In the running for the best priest(also most expensive). Granting obsec or double obsec is great, actions not failing while shooting is nice, has all hymn options and is surprisingly relevant in combat.

Paragon Warsuits - Tier F/D-: The models look cool.. I mean I guess if your meta doesn't include d3+3 damage weapons they might be ok(I don't think that meta exists currently). Simply far too expensive for a unit that dies to anti tank weapons at an alarming rate. Just take mortifiers/P.Engines if considering these girls.

Repentia Superior - Tier B-: Actually looks pretty good now that repentia took a nerf, as she helps missile them out into the enemy.

Sisters Repentia - Tier A-: Still a great unit, they are significantly slower now though with the lose of a strat for advance and charge and with a shorter supply of miracle dice long bomb charges are more difficult. Speaking of a shorter supply of miracle dice the die you get from losing this squad is now more relevant. Still the best combat unit in the codex.

Crusaders - Tier B: Cheap action monkey, you'll usually be happy running 1 or 2 squads.

Arco-flagellants - Tier B+/A-: Great anti horde option.

Death Cult Assassains - Tier B: Cheap action monkey, competes with crusaders.

Fast Attack:

Dominion Squad - Tier A: Great special weapon unit, has the ability to scout up a transport which allows them to ferry a slower squad into a better position from their shared rhino. Good choice for storm bolters and the blessed bolts strat.

Seraphim Squad - Tier A-: Great unit, very useful for "deploy scramblers" secondary. Hand flamer buff to str4 makes these girls hit hard with the descent strat. Probably best to ignore the inferno pistol.

Zephrim Squad - Tier B+: Good in a bloody rose order, competes with strong FA options in Doms and Seraphim though.

Heavy Support

Retributor Squad - Tier C+: Got hit very hard by nerfs. Still good in argent shroud for advance and shoot. Mere shadows of their former selves, if you need a melta squad they can still get the job done. Flamer option is interesting as they ignore cover now.

Mortifiers - Tier A: It's just a great all around unit, good shooting and good melee. Buzz blades are more appealing now that they have zealot and the flail got nerfed hard.

Penitent Engines - Tier A-: An alternative for when you don't want heavy bolter mortifiers as they are slightly cheaper and can advance and charge.

Exocist - Tier C(for the first one)/D-(for the second): I don't even.. Strat makes one worth considering, but having to pay a 1cp tax every time it shoots is well.. punishing. Don't take a second, they both can't use the strat.
EDIT: Didn't realize the strat costs 2cp, rating drops to C-/D+ for the first one. 2 cp will drain you pretty quickly and sisters have a lot of good/interesting strats.

Castigator - Tier D: It's a tank, decent gun options. Problem is you'll only get to fire it once with it's defensive profile.

Dedicated Transports:

Sororitas Rhino - Tier B: If you need a transport, here it is.

Immolator - Tier C-/D+: You're paying a premium for this transport. I'm not sure why, but you sure as hell are paying it.

Fortification:

Battle Sanctum - Tier ?: I don't know how you fit it on the battlefield..


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/19 14:02:43


Post by: ERJAK


@Punisher: New Devastating refrain is 2CP. (which is obscene)


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/19 14:06:53


Post by: Punisher


ERJAK wrote:
@Punisher: New Devastating refrain is 2CP. (which is obscene)


Yikes didn't realize that, just assumed it was 1 for what it did..


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/19 14:17:58


Post by: ERJAK


 Punisher wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
@Punisher: New Devastating refrain is 2CP. (which is obscene)


Yikes didn't realize that, just assumed it was 1 for what it did..


So did everyone who doesn't work at GW.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 04:08:49


Post by: ZergSmasher


ZergSmasher's hot takes on unit tiers (will post later with my thoughts on relics, strats, and other stuff):

Morvenn Vahl: S Tier: This lady is extremely good; basically an auto-include for competitive play, at least until the inevitable nerf. 260 points is a lot, but for what she does, it's a complete steal.

Canoness: A Tier: As our Captain-equivalent, these are relevant, even in lists with Vahl in them. They make good caddies for relics such as Benificence or the Blade of Ellynor, and can take upgrades to give themselves even more utility (at a points premium that may or may not be worth it).

Palatine: B Tier: Our Lieutenant-equivalent. Not as customizable as a Canoness in terms of loadout, but can take the extra blessings (not that you would want to take those on a Palatine instead of an actual Canoness).

Junith Eruita: B Tier: Junie B. Jones is only useful in Our Martyred Lady, and probably a good buy in those lists. The jury is out as to whether that Order is any good though. The model is badass!

Missionary: B Tier: Cheaper HQ option than a Canoness, and less redundant if you are running Vahl. Also good for taking a Priest that isn't in the crowded Elites slot, and more Hymn options than a Preacher.

Celestine: A Tier: Very good brawler character unit, although she does, as mentioned above, give up a fair few victory points if she does get dirt-napped. Most of the time your opponent has to kill her twice and that isn't easy though, so I still think she's awesome, particulary to give good melee capability to a non-Bloody Rose list.

Triumph of Saint Katherine: C-Tier: The buffs are nice, but probably not worth the points. There might be a way to build around it, but I'm not sure it's optimal. Really cool model!

Ephrael Stern & Kyganil: B-Tier: Kind of fun, but honestly Celestine does the same job better. If you don't have the points for her, you could do worse than taking these two.

Battle Sister Squad: A-Tier: Still our only Troops choice, and they aren't bad for what they are, even if they lost the ability to take 2 specials on a unit of 5. They gained the ability to be taken in units of up to 20, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think the maxed blob of them is a trap. You have to activate the protective stratagem for them in your turn, so if you go second you're SOL, and they just aren't as lethal as other horde units in other armies. To me, they really shine in Argent Shroud MSU lists where each unit can take a Multi-melta for maximum efficiency on the AS conviction.

Aestred Thurga & Agathae Dolan: D-Tier: Probably fun in Crusade play, but I think they are a bit situational in normal competitive play.

Imagifier: B-Tier: Some lists can make good use of one of these, but they are definitely far from the auto-include that they were last edition. They have a nice relic to get the two buffs that matter.

Dialogus: A-Tier: This is the best Priest IMO, plus she can adjust a Miracle dice which is very nice.

Preacher: A-Tier: Cheapest Priest around, and surprisingly nasty with a Zealot's Vindictor. Great cheap source of War Hymn if that's all you want a Priest for.

Celestians: C-Tier: Suffers from the problem of being a "jack of all trades, master of none", as others have mentioned. I'm not convinced that they are worthless, just that they are "worth less" than other specialized units.

Celestian Sacresants: A-Tier: Honestly Heroic Intervention is a powerful ability on a brawler unit like this, and being able to bodyguard your characters is also very solid. Less killy than Repentia, but far more durable.

Hospitaller: B-Tier: Giving nearby Sisters a 6+++ is nothing to scoff at, and she can revive potentially expensive models, which will force your opponent to actually finish off units of Retributors or Sacresants to prevent this.

Dogmata: B-Tier: Very nice buffs and has Priest abilities, but she's as expensive as a tricked-out Canoness and doesn't fight as well. Certain builds can really make her shine however, so she's far from useless.

Paragon Warsuits: C-Tier: I think these are generally underrated; yes they are a tad on the fragile side for the points, but in a list with a lot of vehicular threats (Rhinos full of nasty units, Mortifiers, Pengines) they can probably be okay as they will soak up some punishment before biting it. I will admit that the current meta is kinda rough for them though. One trick that could be fun would be to give them 2 Multimeltas and a Heavy Flamer, plus Storm Bolters on the shoulders, and pop Holy Trinity on them.

Repentia Superior: C-Tier: She'd be better, but she and her charges have to be on the table rather than safe in a transport for her to actually use her buffs on Repentia. If footslogging Repentia can be made to work, she's groovy.

Sisters Repentia: A-Tier: Very killy and capable of significant trade-ups if used correctly, but less of an auto-include than they were previously. Probably bad in any Order that isn't Bloody Rose though.

Crusaders: B-Tier: Cheap action slaves that are decently durable for what they are. Not really good for much else.

Arco-flagellants: A-Tier: These are a great alternative to Repentia in a non-BR list; cast War Hymn on them and pop Extremis Trigger Word to really make hordes cry. They are actually more durable than Repentia too, due to having 2 wounds apiece. They don't kill big stuff as well as Repentia, but in a non-BR list you hopefully have more shooting to deal with those things.

Death Cult Assassins: B-Tier: More cheap action slaves; rather than being durable like Crusaders they always fight first, which won't be relevant all the time but is worth mentioning.

Dominion Squad: A-Tier: Probably the best Fast Attack option; as mentioned they can move up a Rhino that also has another unit inside, allowing you to get that unit downfield faster. They are good for using Storm Bolters (for Blessed Bolts) or Meltaguns (take a Combiflamer on the Superior and pop Holy Trinity) to engage various targets.

Seraphim Squad: C-Tier: Oh, how the mighty have fallen. The flamer ones could have niche uses in Ebon Chalice lists because of their stratagem, but other than that I don't rate them highly at all, and mostly that is because of the nerf of Deadly Descent. Too expensive to be action slaves IMO.

Zephyrim Squad: B-Tier: These are quite good, but I don't think I would run more than one unit. I like the Pennant option because with fewer Miracle dice around you might not get the auto-charge.

Retributor Squad: C-Tier: In Argent Shroud, I'd rate them A-Tier, but losing the ability to move and shoot without the penalty hurts bad. Heavy Flamers could be okay in non-AS lists though, so maybe some testing is required.

Mortifiers: A-Tier: Flails got nerfed, but I don't think that makes the buzzsaws an auto-take. They are still more useful against hordes. Morties are still a really good ranged unit with Heavy Bolters and can switch to a brawler role if the enemy gets close, making them very versatile.

Penitent Engines: A-Tier: Not better or worse than Mortifiers, just different. Advance and charge is a good ability to have in the back pocket, but don't give up your flamer shooting if you don't have to.

Exorcist: D-Tier: Sadly a shadow of its former self. There could be an edge case for a single one using Devastating Refrain to shoot out of LOS, but honestly that's a lot of CP it'll eat up. It's guns are still fine, but the durability just isn't there anymore, which is a problem all tanks face in the current competitive meta.

Castigator: D-Tier: Its guns are solid, but it just isn't worth the points due to its low durability and the prevalence of weapons like meltas and Dark Lances.

Rhino: B-Tier: This is our standard metal bawks. Does what it says on the tin. Plenty of units can benefit from these, but an all-footslogging list could probably work too, so they are not quite an auto-include.

Immolator: F-Tier: Very, very overpriced, even more so than the tanks IMO. Not sure why GW doesn't want us to buy their expensive kit for this model, but here we are.

Battle Sanctum: F-Tier: Even if you can fit it on the table, it's probably not worth taking over more actual units or buff characters.

Overall we have a pretty nice selection of units, with very few absolute stinkers.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 10:09:48


Post by: ERJAK


 ZergSmasher wrote:
ZergSmasher's hot takes on unit tiers (will post later with my thoughts on relics, strats, and other stuff):
Dominion Squad: A-Tier: Probably the best Fast Attack option; as mentioned they can move up a Rhino that also has another unit inside, allowing you to get that unit downfield faster. They are good for using Storm Bolters (for Blessed Bolts) or Meltaguns (take a Combiflamer on the Superior and pop Holy Trinity) to engage various targets.

Paragon Warsuits: C-Tier: I think these are generally underrated; yes they are a tad on the fragile side for the points, but in a list with a lot of vehicular threats (Rhinos full of nasty units, Mortifiers, Pengines) they can probably be okay as they will soak up some punishment before biting it. I will admit that the current meta is kinda rough for them though. One trick that could be fun would be to give them 2 Multimeltas and a Heavy Flamer, plus Storm Bolters on the shoulders, and pop Holy Trinity on them.



This brings up a point that I think has gotten forgotten with the new Codex:

Holy Trinity is a terrible stratagem for meltas.
.

Doing what you suggested with Paragons, here's what the damage looks vs just taking 3 Multimeltas like assuming T5+(no benefit for meltas at T4) and high wounds (remember, to use HT at all means you'll be in Melta Range):

Holy Trinity is Bad T5 3+, T7 3+, T83+

Paragons 2MM, HF, SB(Trin) 15.01, 14.09,11.55
Paragons 3MM, SB(No Trin) 15.56, 15.56, 11.44

So against high wound targets, you're spending a CP to do less damage on anything below T8 and .11 extra damage against T8. Keep in mind also that this is DURING trinity. It's MUCH worse when you run out of CP. Also, the melta squad can split their damage against several targets, the HT squad MUST spend all shots on the same target. Even with the HF setup being 10pts cheaper, it's very bad.

Let's try normalizing against 3W models (i.e. wasting 2-6 on the melta roll).

Paragons 2MM, HF, SB(Trin) 9.45 8.54 7.10
Paragons 3MM, SB(No Trin) 8.89 8.89 6.44

So even wasting most of the melta's damage, you still only end up with a maximum of .65 damage against an UNBUFFED triple multimelta setup.

But this is assuming no invul you say? Well let's check out the same VS a 3 wound 4++

Paragons 2MM, HF, SB(Trin) 6.12 5.20 4.43
Paragons 3MM, SB(No Trin) 4.89 4.89 3.44

Even in an almost ideal case, the absolute most benefit you get from using HT instead of just bring the correct weapons is 1.2 wounds. Even trying to find the bright side (well it's a 28% increase against T8 4++!) requires the unit you're shooting at to be no more than 3 wounds. Against an actual Knight, the bonus is only 12% and if you shoot from 13+ Inches away, you're actually losing 33%. You'd have to be shooting literally at the new T5 orks with multimeltas before the extra DPS from the 3rd multimelta is signficantly less than suggested weapons with +1 to wound.

Melta Dominion squads get less than the benefit of a CP reroll when USING HT and lose damage when not using it vs 5 Meltas.

Flamers have an entirely different equation for a few different reasons. Flamers tend to shoot at lower wound targets (wasting Melta damage), lower save targets(wasting melta AP), and specifically with Multimeltas, wasted melta range. 4 Flamers and Combi-melta Doms see a 25.7% damage increase over 5 flamer doms, even when normalized against 1 wound models. For Retributors the numbers tend to be even better than that, especially if they have something like a pocket palantine to reroll 1s to wound when wounding marines on a 2+. Keep in mind though, that this means you can only fire at one squad, even with popping Cherubs.

Bolter squads tend to do so little damage (battle sisters) that holy trinity doesn't really matter or have better stratagems to use anyway (blessed bolts).

TLDR: Holy Trinity for Flamer loadouts, extra melta shot for melta loadouts.









Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 10:40:23


Post by: shabadoit


I think people are undervaluing Retributors post changes. They were previously in the running for best unit in the game, so I get that it feels like they're C tier comparatively, but MM are still excellent and Retributors are still the best way to get them.

The ignore cover and +1 Flamer strength also work wonders for both of the other weapon options. I think they're actually better with Heavy bolters than before by a significant amount. I'm not sure that makes Bolter Retributors actually worth taking, but they're better at least.

I'd be interested to see the maths on a flamer squad with Holy Trinity would perform too. 3 CP for 36 auto hits is something to think about, especially with orks on the horizon. I mean, you're still doing 9 damage to a Leman Russ too, plus a stray melta shot.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 11:10:09


Post by: ERJAK


shabadoit wrote:
I think people are undervaluing Retributors post changes. They were previously in the running for best unit in the game, so I get that it feels like they're C tier comparatively, but MM are still excellent and Retributors are still the best way to get them.

The ignore cover and +1 Flamer strength also work wonders for both of the other weapon options. I think they're actually better with Heavy bolters than before by a significant amount. I'm not sure that makes Bolter Retributors actually worth taking, but they're better at least.

I'd be interested to see the maths on a flamer squad with Holy Trinity would perform too. 3 CP for 36 auto hits is something to think about, especially with orks on the horizon. I mean, you're still doing 9 damage to a Leman Russ too, plus a stray melta shot.


Personally, I don't see a way to avoid taking Multimelta Retributors. Even needing to spend 2CP on an Argent Shroud patrol, they're still by far our best shooting option. The only other anti-tank shooting we have (that doesn't ALSO require Argent Shroud) are Dominions and even technically having a 27" threat range turn one, they're still only 12" away from the enemy MAX when they shoot meltas.

Also the math on the HF rets goes as follows:

4HF, CM, Trinity, Max shots 3+T4: 16.93 3+T5: 16.93 3+T7: 10.94 3+T8: 10.55
4HF, CF, No Trin, Max shots 3+T4: 13.33 3+T5: 13.0 3+T7: 6.66 3+T8: 6.66

Average dice for Trinity kills an entire T5 Boyz squad in one round and only leaves 4 alive in the CF setup.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 12:15:04


Post by: Lammia


Regular Sister squads are a better source of MMs imho...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are't as good, but you can spread the MMs out

...

Though I guess AS patrol gets both


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 13:48:22


Post by: ERJAK


Lammia wrote:
Regular Sister squads are a better source of MMs imho...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They are't as good, but you can spread the MMs out

...

Though I guess AS patrol gets both


If you're worried about squads getting their MMs sniped, retributors are still better. 2 MMs even at 5 models with 2 Cherubs. Ability to keep 2 MM and go up to 10 models for only 10 more points. Ignores cover (the good one that ignores both dense and light).

Even when taking an AS patrol/battalion I would still take at least 2 squads of rets before and THEN would start putting multimeltas on battle sisters.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 14:24:29


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Did something change with Deadly Descent that made Inferno pistols not worthwhile?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 14:44:33


Post by: Punisher


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Did something change with Deadly Descent that made Inferno pistols not worthwhile?


It no longer increases your range, so when you deepstrike in you have to be 9" away and the pistol range is only 6" so they can't fire the inferno pistols with the strat anymore.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 15:58:24


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Well shucks, that kind of ruins the point of Inferno pistol Seraphim doesn't it.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 16:06:56


Post by: ERJAK


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Well shucks, that kind of ruins the point of Inferno pistol Seraphim doesn't it.


Sure does. Dropping Seraphim in general now is pretty terrible, honestly. Handflamers going to S4 gets wiped out by BR losing its pistol AP. It's not...terrible for trying to get ROD but honestly I just don't think seraphim are worth it out of deepstrike at all anymore.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 16:58:54


Post by: shabadoit


Argent Shroud Seraphim are still interesting, with the extra range and a reroll, but yeah, it feels really heavy handed. So much feels reactionary in the codex...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 17:09:24


Post by: ERJAK


shabadoit wrote:
Argent Shroud Seraphim are still interesting, with the extra range and a reroll, but yeah, it feels really heavy handed. So much feels reactionary in the codex...


Or just straight up out of touch. 90 for a Paragon with a multimelta? 160 for an explosion on treads? 150 for a transport that only ever transports things to the grave? 180pts for a tank that takes 2CP to shoot? Wacky.

Do they...do they not have multimeltas or dark lances at GW HQ?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 18:31:00


Post by: ClockworkZion


ERJAK wrote:
shabadoit wrote:
Argent Shroud Seraphim are still interesting, with the extra range and a reroll, but yeah, it feels really heavy handed. So much feels reactionary in the codex...


Or just straight up out of touch. 90 for a Paragon with a multimelta? 160 for an explosion on treads? 150 for a transport that only ever transports things to the grave? 180pts for a tank that takes 2CP to shoot? Wacky.

Do they...do they not have multimeltas or dark lances at GW HQ?

Of course they do, but GW has shown for a long time they prefer mixed arms army lists over going all in on any on strat. Playtesters should have (and probably did to be honest) catch the points issues. Hopefully this is a case of stuff being sent off for print before the points where finalized and we'll see an appropriate nudge.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 18:50:27


Post by: shabadoit


I think they've decided Sisters with Melta were a problem and have attempted to address it. It's super disappointing after the Admech and DE codexes es were so interesting, although the DE one feels like it was designed by someone with no objectivity when it comes to DE, so it's not a great comparison. People talk about Morvenn Vahl only having points as a way to balance her being an issue - the entire DE codex has a similar problem, it's good at everything and has no weaknesses. The release week reviews being so positive on that book are going to age terribly, it's a badly designed book. Worse than Sisters in my opinion. It's a really interesting book and the rules are lots of fun if you love DE, but the lack of restraint is straight up bad design. The Cult of Strife stuff is flat out broken (different book I know), and there's no clean way to fix that without killing other Wych Cults. It's all gravy and no drawback. It's terrible, terrible design.

Still, the Sisters book compares well to most of the 9th codexes I think, although you're railroaded into an infantry list if you care about being competitive.

That said, I'd like Battle Sisters to drop to 10 points. Or really 9.
Assuming ork boys stay at 8, and given the cost of Skitarii and Kabalites, I think 9 is fair. Why exactly are they 3 points more than a Skitarii or Kabalite warrior? Or perhaps more accurately, why are Skitarii and DE troops so cheap?

I absolutely feel like they'd decided to give the Exorcist ignore line of sight and then backed out too, without properly revisiting it afterwards. It's a shame because they could have given it and the Castigator really distinct roles.

Finally, giving core to all infantry, while great for us, was such a lazy design decision. It doesn't make sense in terms of lore and it limits the design space. Itd be cool if there was an order than gave core to Ministorum for example, except they already all have it for no good reason.

I think that dropping BSS would give more room for Celestians too. That said, I'd honestly rather the others got a 2 pt bump to bring them in line with other choices. They feel like they were priced with their 8th ed rules.

Complaints aside, I'm still happy enough with the book in terms of overall power level at least. Vehicles are a problem that need more than a codex to fix, so hopefully we'll see something further down the line for that, and there are still some great combos. I've said before that if we'd been forced to wait for profile changes like DG, DE and Admech were then we'd be a lot more positive about the book.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/20 19:21:16


Post by: ERJAK


We're more of less fine now, I just feel like long term we're going to get creeped out of the edition.

Orkz are already good at killing T3 infantry before the new book likely boosts them by a good amount. DE and Admech waste through battle sisters even with 20 blobs and Transhuman.

If CWE and CSM go anywhere near the direction DE and C:SM went, then our various Rhino Rush strats will often result in expensive melee infantry sitting in 3-6 very expensive craters first turn in a lot of games.

We don't really have anything particularly resilient or difficult to deal with that isn't an absurdly expensive melee character. We're not particularly fast and have very few deployment shenanigans so objective hopping isn't really a thing we can excel at. We really don't have ANY long range shooting, especially turn 1.

As numbers creep up and more Drukhari style books come out I feel like we'll fall farther, faster than armies like DA and DG who can still rely on gimmick lists.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 00:05:01


Post by: Lammia


ERJAK wrote:
We're more of less fine now, I just feel like long term we're going to get creeped out of the edition.

Orkz are already good at killing T3 infantry before the new book likely boosts them by a good amount. DE and Admech waste through battle sisters even with 20 blobs and Transhuman.

If CWE and CSM go anywhere near the direction DE and C:SM went, then our various Rhino Rush strats will often result in expensive melee infantry sitting in 3-6 very expensive craters first turn in a lot of games.

We don't really have anything particularly resilient or difficult to deal with that isn't an absurdly expensive melee character. We're not particularly fast and have very few deployment shenanigans so objective hopping isn't really a thing we can excel at. We really don't have ANY long range shooting, especially turn 1.

As numbers creep up and more Drukhari style books come out I feel like we'll fall farther, faster than armies like DA and DG who can still rely on gimmick lists.
The more I think about it, the more I think Genestealer catapult w/ Superior is how to play Repentia. Combined with Pen. Engines to get board control quickly where we want it.

There's some objective play with Seraphim and Angelic Ascent, but I don't think them good enough to pull off the signposted move.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 02:01:53


Post by: ZergSmasher


Lammia wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
We're more of less fine now, I just feel like long term we're going to get creeped out of the edition.

Orkz are already good at killing T3 infantry before the new book likely boosts them by a good amount. DE and Admech waste through battle sisters even with 20 blobs and Transhuman.

If CWE and CSM go anywhere near the direction DE and C:SM went, then our various Rhino Rush strats will often result in expensive melee infantry sitting in 3-6 very expensive craters first turn in a lot of games.

We don't really have anything particularly resilient or difficult to deal with that isn't an absurdly expensive melee character. We're not particularly fast and have very few deployment shenanigans so objective hopping isn't really a thing we can excel at. We really don't have ANY long range shooting, especially turn 1.

As numbers creep up and more Drukhari style books come out I feel like we'll fall farther, faster than armies like DA and DG who can still rely on gimmick lists.
The more I think about it, the more I think Genestealer catapult w/ Superior is how to play Repentia. Combined with Pen. Engines to get board control quickly where we want it.

There's some objective play with Seraphim and Angelic Ascent, but I don't think them good enough to pull off the signposted move.

I've been trying to think about that as well. The trouble is keeping Repentia alive long enough to do the catapult thing. You'd almost require at least having a character with Indomitable Belief near them on turn 1 in case they get targeted early (probably by non-LOS weapons as you hopefully start them out of sight!). One thing I missed until I was rereading my codex a few minutes ago is that the Superior's ability to advance + charge applies to herself as well as a unit of Repentia, which means they do get to take the +1 to wound buff with them. That is huge.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 03:08:00


Post by: Lammia


Oh, the strat for going second vs nlos weapons is concede/hope they shoot other stuff.

But yes, Superiors are proper full support characters for Repentia now


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 03:34:57


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


My opinions on the units in the Codex (note, I haven't played with any of them yet so it's really just based on my impressions):

HQ:
-Morvenn Vahl - Stupidly good, she's going to be an absolute terror to deal with.
-Canoness - I love how much customization Canonesses have gotten, they have easily the most versatile build variety in the whole codex, finally being able to be solid beatsticks, very tough damage soaks, buff monsters, etc. Will be in nearly every Sisters list.
-Palatine - I'm glad that the Palatine isn't just a discount Canoness, rerolling 1s to Wound gives her a distinct role, although the lack of customization is disappointing.
-Junith Erutia - She seems alright, giving out cover to units within 6" and letting a unit reroll hits is handy. She's got a bit more of a niche with her dual heavy flamers and 10" movement over a regular Canoness, although you're going to need to have a specific role for her to make her really work.
-Missionary - For 40pts, it's hard to go wrong with one of these guys to get some hymn buffs and save your Elites slots.
-Celestine & Geminae Superia - Celestine is a terror. She's either going to tear through enemy units or act as a great distraction Carnifex for your army while being difficult to truly kill off with their healing abilities and 10 wounds at 2+/4++ and -1 damage for Celestine.
-Triumph of Saint Katherine - The Triumph struggles to justify its points as well as the other two 200+ point HQ units in this Codex. Gaining Look Out Sir! and terrain buffs helps its survivability, as does its invul and hit roll modifier, which makes a major difference. Mainly good for coveted miracle dice generation and manipulation, but I think you're generally going to be better off without it.
-Ephrael Stern & Kyganil of the Bloody Tears - A decent budget beatstick at 120pts, mainly suffers from the fact that they (by design) don't really have any synergy with the rest of the army. If you have 120pts to spare then they can be a cool choice but I don't predict that they'll see a lot of serious usage.

Troops:
-Battle Sister Squad - Losing the 2nd special weapon in a 5 girl squad really hurts because Sisters have been a fantastic MSU army for at least a decade up until now, but it's probably a fair enough change. Definitely going to see more 10-20 girl blobs in future. Still solid, and their Defenders of the Faith strategem is going to be literally game-winning on a regular basis.

Elites:
-Aestred Thurga & Agathae Dolan - I'm kind of mixed on this pair. They definitely seem inessential to a list, but I can see how having all 6 sacred rights active on all units in 6" could be game-winning and being able to take a free relic goes some way to justifying the unit's points cost. They also are clearly intended to be better in Crusade vs Matched Play. Worth trying out, in my opinion.
-Imagifier - Can you imagine spending 50pts to make S3 or lower attacks within 6" -1 to wound? Thankfully +1S or reroll advance/charge rolls are far better but you're going to have to have a very specific role in mind to make an Imagifier worthwhile.
-Dialogus - Great buffing unit at only 50pts! Hymns alone would be good but miracle dice manipulation is huge, especially given how limited these dice will be now.
-Preacher - A solid, cheap source of hymns for your army, don't expect them to do much else. Don't understand why anyone would take anything other than the Zealot's Vindictator though...? What the hell even is a Zealot's Vindicator...?
-Celestian Squad - I really struggle to see how you can justify taking Celestians. About the only niche I can see is that they can try to fill the MSU role since they're still able to take 2 special weapons in a squad of 5, but still not great. Maybe use them as a bodyguard unit for a Canoness that doesn't want to be in melee?
-Celestian Sacresants - Easily my favourite new model in the range, they're by far the best option for a Canoness escort unit, especially if that Canoness is trying to get into combat. Good melee for the points, reasonably durable
-Hospitaller - Depending on your army composition, I think a Hospitaller (or two) could be a great addition. Providing D3 wounds restored per turn, 6+++ and resurrecting D3 models for 1CP? You're gonna justify that 50pt investment fast.
-Dogmata - The Dogmata has a lot of potential, especially if you build your army with her in mind. For the most part, I struggle to see how she's worth 15pts more than a Dialogus, but her ability to make 1 unit per turn gain Objective Secured will likely be literally game-winning on a regular basis.
-Paragon Warsuits - I'm not sold on these things at all. They should be reasonably tanky to small arms fire with -1 Damage (going by RAI), but I don't think that they have the level of damage output that I'd expect from a 240/270pt unit
-Repentia Superior - While it sucks that her ability to reroll advance/charge doesn't work out of a transport, if you can pull it off then the Repentia Superior is the premiere Repentia buffing unit, especially since she supplements that with +1 to wound, making an already nasty unit even deadlier. May be just a bit overcosted at 40pts though IMHO.
-Sisters Repentia - Repentia are probably my favourite unit in all of 40k and it's good to see that their level of damage output is still insane. Incredible unit for stacking buffs on and then going to town on the enemy.
-Crusaders - Everyone's hyped on these guys as cheap action units... for good reason. They're not a terrible unit in their own right, especially for a measly 11pts, but their utility within a list is going to win games.
-Arco-flagellants - Not quite as good as Repentia IMHO, although they are more suited for wiping out hordes and also require less buff stacking to get their full potential off. I really like them, 135pts for a full unit is a great deal.
-Death Cult Assassains - Same sort of deal with Crusaders, cheap unit for actions which is also potentially brutal in its own right. Competes with Arco-flagellants, but I think that they handle higher armour a bit better (although D1 hurts with most Marines having 2 wounds now...).

Fast Attack:
-Dominion Squad - Great special weapons delivery unit, especially with their pre-game scouting move. Probably the best use of the Fast Attack slot in the army, and Blessed Bolts on Storm Bolters seem like a lethal option.
-Seraphim Squad - Poor Seraphim, they're only really worthwhile with dual hand flamers now. People are really hating on them, but I do think that they have the potential to hose a unit with Deadly Descent and then a second round of shooting afterwards.
-Zephyrim Squad - Zephyrim seem... decent. 17pts each for 12" movement, 3 power sword attacks and 6" core reroll charge rolls certainly has potential, especially if you drop them in to support another charging unit nearby. They're probably a more niche unit in the Codex, but don't seem like a terrible pick.

Heavy Support
-Retributor Squad - Probably the best, most efficient dedicated anti-tank unit in the Codex still with Multi-meltas. It's not as good as remaining stationary, but ignores cover can actually be really handy to have. Also have the potential to be insanely deadly with Heavy Flamers now with the Cleased By Fire strategem.
-Mortifiers - After Retributors, Mortifiers are probably the next best use of a Heavy Support slot. If they can reach combat they have an impressive damage output and their 5+++ and ability to fight after death and a couple mortal wound strategems make a unit of these very tempting.
-Penitent Engines - A less-good Mortifier. Worse WS and BS, but is faster at traversing the battlefield, which could make a world of difference in the end.
-Exocist - People are really hating on the Exorcist and for mostly good reason. 180pts is A LOT to swallow, but IMHO you're going to likely need at least 1 in your army. It's the only viable long-ranged anti-tank in the whole army and the ability to shoot out of line of sight, while expensive at 2CP, is potentially game-winning if you can pound a unit with 3D3 S8 AP-2 Damage D6 rockets. You can get around this if you are dedicated to rushing forward as quickly as possible, but otherwise I feel like an Exorcist will be required to keep a Sisters force well-rounded.
-Castigator - I don't really understand the design philosophy behind this thing. It's a ranged anti-tank unit, but its weapons aren't going to do much damage to tanks. At least the Exorcist has a niche...

Dedicated Transports:
-Sororitas Rhino - It's a Rhino, but with a 6++.
-Immolator - WAY too damned expensive for what you get. I can see maybe trying to rush them towards your opponent and then using its Martyr's Immolation strategem to get mortal wounds on the opponent but you'd have to somehow survive that long for it to happen (not to mention that you then waste the tank's shooting that you paid +10pts for). Probably worth sticking with the Rhino if you need a transport, although taking a couple Immolators for additional heavy flamers is tempting.

Fortification:
-Battle Sanctum - lol I'm never going to try this.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 04:27:55


Post by: ZergSmasher


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
What the hell even is a Zealot's Vindicator...?

It's the thing this model is holding (model painted by yours truly):

I think they included the option so that you could use this model (from Blackstone Fortress) as a generic Preacher model.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 05:54:34


Post by: Blackie


Are Immolators and Exorcists really THAT bad? Even against armies that don't have meltas?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 06:11:54


Post by: Lammia


 Blackie wrote:
Are Immolators and Exorcists really THAT bad? Even against armies that don't have meltas?
Yes, T7 11W just isn't enough*


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 06:20:31


Post by: ZergSmasher


 Blackie wrote:
Are Immolators and Exorcists really THAT bad? Even against armies that don't have meltas?

They are grossly overcosted for what they bring to the table. Even if they somehow don't get instakilled they won't earn their points back most of the time, at least not as efficiently as other units.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 09:11:11


Post by: U02dah4


In fairness the lack of durability for pts is a problem 80%of tanks have across all codexs


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 10:24:09


Post by: dammit


Even though i know its overpriced and 2cp is a sink, I play in a meta thats dominated by well-screened non los weapons making midboard an impossible place to exist.

Having a tool that outranges D-cannons and can break into that meta is looking to be worth more than its points to me.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 10:43:17


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


Exactly. Like I said in my analysis, Sisters have no real ranged anti-tank, so you're either going to have to commit to rushing forward ASAP with melta weapons or you bite the bullet and take at least 1 Exorcist to deal with the biggest threats.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 11:04:44


Post by: dammit


It should be on the datasheet though.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 11:14:35


Post by: U02dah4


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Exactly. Like I said in my analysis, Sisters have no real ranged anti-tank, so you're either going to have to commit to rushing forward ASAP with melta weapons or you bite the bullet and take at least 1 Exorcist to deal with the biggest threats.


Or you can ignore killing them and focus on the objectives. If you are majority infantry they can focus on killing 4++ or 5++ sister/Crusader. Units they might wipe you by the end of the game but you should be able to hold on long enough to win.

I'm also not suggesting you take no melta just that killing things isn't a win con and sometimes if you don't have the option trying to play that way will just put you at a disadvantage to a faction that can


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 11:18:08


Post by: dammit


I've never had a game where ignoring 9 d-cannons is successful.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 11:47:16


Post by: U02dah4


I can't recall the last game I came up against 9 it's a bad strategy as it can't deal with infantry which is our strength

9 d cannons kill about 7.5-10 infantry depending on 4++ vs 5++per turn. Really not that much.

Sure they are great at popping vehicles but if you don't have them in a list or only have rhinos that you don't really care about from t2 they don't have any targets.

Our vehicles are weak other than Rhino and morvehn vall pretty much everything worth takeing is 1W

D cannon are only good vs vehicles If not they are easily ignored and left for 4 turns would only kill about 400pts and I've won by t4.

T1 they pop 2 rhinos t2 morvehen after that they don't matter with 9 it also accounts for 1/3 of their army. Focus the rest.

I'm also not suggesting you should ignore them always if one is mispossitioned and an easy kill take it but you certainly don't need to kill them to win

I've certainly Won games while tabled on t5 and that's how I see sisters playing a lot. We are a wave we crash into the objectives hold them and get martyred around T4 we just need enough pts in those 4 turns to carry the game


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 13:25:22


Post by: dammit


U02dah4 wrote:
I can't recall the last game I came up against 9 it's a bad strategy as it can't deal with infantry which is our strength


Like I said, I play in a non-los meta.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 13:42:51


Post by: Lammia


dammit wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
I can't recall the last game I came up against 9 it's a bad strategy as it can't deal with infantry which is our strength


Like I said, I play in a non-los meta.
Exocist won't make for that, It'll half kill one and then die if you get T1. I'd be more tempted to try and leg it with Repentia and Superior...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 13:46:15


Post by: dammit


That's never worked against any of the half dozen players making this meta. They move-block and deep-strike screen incredibly well. Going to them has lost me 100% of games, It's nice to have something, anything that breaks that up.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 13:59:43


Post by: Lammia


dammit wrote:
That's never worked against any of the half dozen players making this meta. They move-block and deep-strike screen incredibly well. Going to them has lost me 100% of games, It's nice to have something, anything that breaks that up.
Do you have a list?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 14:07:33


Post by: U02dah4


A- will max out in most lists
Morvenn vahl efficient distraction carnifex

Canoness always take with a blessing to suit build

Celestian sacresants efficient bodyguards good melee

Sisters repentia still really strong

Crusaders very efficient objevtive holders and action takers now pts decreased

B - good choices that you want to include but might not want maxed

Palatine less good canoness reasonable 2nd Hq choice in a detatchment with a canoness

Battle sister squad a mandatory choice in many detatchments

Imagifier - reroll advance and charge strong in BR relic for +1S melee lists will want 1

Dialogus best expensive priest but a tad expensive and useless in combat

Preacher best overall priest - cheap, best melee only best hymm very efficient 1 is an auto include if you don't have a dialogus

Repentia superior very strong buffs to repentia doesn't need a slot

Dominion interesting strat with storm bolter spam but only really works on a single unit

Retributor squad most armies will take atleast 1 melta squad some more

Rhino best transport 6+inv

Tadeous the purifier unbelievably broken in a bloody rose list grand 6" +1A aura to all priests that stack with war hymm but has keyword problems that shut miracle dice down. Essentially only take in bloody rose and you have to build around it - but loss of miracle dice is a huge cost.

C may see play
Missionary needs the sigil ecclesiasticus to justify but not really worth the relic slot at least cheap

Celestine and geminae superior a n expensive survivable beatstick in an army full of beatsticks viable outside bloody Rose but outclassed in bloody rose

Ephrael stern and kyganil - efficient beatsticks but their are other things in the hq slots

Triumph of St Katherine expensive interesting model nice buffs but not survivable enough a list that wants it has no vehicles and it's then the best target for multidamage weapons

Hospitaller 3" aura is just not big enough it's not bad but it's a struggle to justify over other choices

Arcoflagellants nothing wrong with the unit outside bloody rose but we have better options in bloody rose

Deathcult assassins nothing wrong with the unit outside bloody Rose but we have better options in bloody rose

Seraphim previous builds are dead now a board control unit rather than a kill unit although you can flamer it probably not that efficient

Zephyrim reasonable unit but mildly too expensive

Mortifier OK but not that survivable and substantially nerfed

Penitent ending OK slightly buffed but not that survivable

Exorcist a one of with devastating refrain could be useful but it's inefficient

Imolator not a rhino


F bad
Junith eruitia if only basilica aura didn't say wholey within

Aestred Thurgarton and Agatha Dolan - main aura Is not that great and can't be activated when you jump out a transport isn't that good and lasts 1 turn

Celestian squad almost everything they can do is done better by something else

Dogmata - not as efficient as a Preacher and at the same cost as a dialogue without the buffs

Paragon warship 720 pts per unit is terrible wait for faq

Castigator not durable enough

Battle Sanctum not playable due to terrain rules but cool model

Pious vorne take a Preacher instead


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote:
dammit wrote:
That's never worked against any of the half dozen players making this meta. They move-block and deep-strike screen incredibly well. Going to them has lost me 100% of games, It's nice to have something, anything that breaks that up.
Do you have a list?


Yes if we could see your list we might be able to advise better


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 14:15:27


Post by: ClockworkZion


ERJAK wrote:
We're more of less fine now, I just feel like long term we're going to get creeped out of the edition.

I disagree. With each order leaning into particular play styles I feel we're probably one of the more flexible books that can shift into staying relevant the entire edition. I can't say we'll always top table (who knows the next time GW releases a book on par with Drukhari that breaks the meta for example), but we'll be relevant.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 14:15:28


Post by: Lammia


I was hoping for a sample 'Meta' list...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 14:16:58


Post by: dammit


Lammia wrote:
dammit wrote:
That's never worked against any of the half dozen players making this meta. They move-block and deep-strike screen incredibly well. Going to them has lost me 100% of games, It's nice to have something, anything that breaks that up.
Do you have a list?


This isn't exactly a list I've played but - I asked one of the folks I play with and he said he's working on:

-Asurman
-Farseer
-Warlock Conclave

- 3x10 dire avengers
- 3x5 dire avengers

- 2x3 shining spears

- 3x3 D-cannon Support Weapons
- 2x Fire Prisms.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 14:18:14


Post by: Lammia


 ClockworkZion wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
We're more of less fine now, I just feel like long term we're going to get creeped out of the edition.

I disagree. With each order leaning into particular play styles I feel we're probably one of the more flexible books that can shift into staying relevant the entire edition. I can't say we'll always top table (who knows the next time GW releases a book on par with Drukhari that breaks the meta for example), but we'll be relevant.
I suspect T5 -1 AP Orks will be enough to creep us out.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 14:19:21


Post by: dammit


There's a reason flamers went to s5/s6 and everyone gets the max hits strat.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 14:19:30


Post by: ClockworkZion


 ZergSmasher wrote:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
What the hell even is a Zealot's Vindicator...?

It's the thing this model is holding (model painted by yours truly):

I think they included the option so that you could use this model (from Blackstone Fortress) as a generic Preacher model.

Alternatively you can snag some Necromunda Redemptionists for theirs as well:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
Are Immolators and Exorcists really THAT bad? Even against armies that don't have meltas?

They're (well more Immolators in this case) being over charged based on their ability to advance and shoot with no penalty as Argent Shroud. Even as AS they they're being overcharged.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Exactly. Like I said in my analysis, Sisters have no real ranged anti-tank, so you're either going to have to commit to rushing forward ASAP with melta weapons or you bite the bullet and take at least 1 Exorcist to deal with the biggest threats.

Yeah, 1 Exorcist seems like a good meta pick. More than one would be handicapping yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
dammit wrote:
It should be on the datasheet though.

Considering the strength of their weapons it's possible that GW felt it'd be too strong to be a rule, but honestly with the other out of LOS shooting in the game I don't see it unless the playtesters got to try it and then broke the game with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
We're more of less fine now, I just feel like long term we're going to get creeped out of the edition.

I disagree. With each order leaning into particular play styles I feel we're probably one of the more flexible books that can shift into staying relevant the entire edition. I can't say we'll always top table (who knows the next time GW releases a book on par with Drukhari that breaks the meta for example), but we'll be relevant.
I suspect T5 -1 AP Orks will be enough to creep us out.

Depends on what happens with their points. If they're pointed like Sisters maybe not so much.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 14:45:03


Post by: ERJAK


dammit wrote:
Even though i know its overpriced and 2cp is a sink, I play in a meta thats dominated by well-screened non los weapons making midboard an impossible place to exist.

Having a tool that outranges D-cannons and can break into that meta is looking to be worth more than its points to me.


Sometimes when you need something only 1 unit does, the cost doesn't matter. You still need it.

As a TAC option it is wildly, outrageously overpriced in both pts and CP.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 14:50:46


Post by: U02dah4


dammit wrote:
Lammia wrote:
dammit wrote:
That's never worked against any of the half dozen players making this meta. They move-block and deep-strike screen incredibly well. Going to them has lost me 100% of games, It's nice to have something, anything that breaks that up.
Do you have a list?


This isn't exactly a list I've played but - I asked one of the folks I play with and he said he's working on:

-Asurman
-Farseer
-Warlock Conclave

- 3x10 dire avengers
- 3x5 dire avengers

- 2x3 shining spears

- 3x3 D-cannon Support Weapons
- 2x Fire Prisms.


Its an easy to beat if you have the models the big threat are dire avengers and shining spears because of asurman the avengers are 4++ so ap and multidamage are largely irrelevant so less is better I'd take one unit of retributors and no more meltas

What you need is volume of A so either a hoard BR infantry focusing on repentia sacrosacants crusaders battlesisters flagellents and assassins Seraphim with flamers the more infantry skewed the better

It's important not to take mortifiers Penitent ending castigators Exorcist and immolators


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 15:05:00


Post by: ERJAK


U02dah4 wrote:
dammit wrote:
Lammia wrote:
dammit wrote:
That's never worked against any of the half dozen players making this meta. They move-block and deep-strike screen incredibly well. Going to them has lost me 100% of games, It's nice to have something, anything that breaks that up.
Do you have a list?


This isn't exactly a list I've played but - I asked one of the folks I play with and he said he's working on:

-Asurman
-Farseer
-Warlock Conclave

- 3x10 dire avengers
- 3x5 dire avengers

- 2x3 shining spears

- 3x3 D-cannon Support Weapons
- 2x Fire Prisms.


Its an easy to beat if you have the models the big threat are dire avengers and shining spears because of asurman the avengers are 4++ so ap and multidamage are largely irrelevant so less is better I'd take one unit of retributors and no more meltas

What you need is volume of A so either a hoard BR infantry focusing on repentia sacrosacants crusaders battlesisters flagellents and assassins Seraphim with flamers the more infantry skewed the better

It's important not to take mortifiers Penitent ending castigators Exorcist and immolators


That list shouldn't be able to beat an infantry horde list. Take out the shining spears and neuter the dire avengers, camp objectives. Even with blast he's paying 210pts for 9 shots. If he's killing 11pt battlesisters, who cares?

The fireprisms are the only real threat.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 15:08:21


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Agreed with everything above.

Having played a lot of Dire Avengers their main weakness is once someone gets into melee. They can still be a threat in melee, but less so compared to almost every other faction who is spitting out a far higher volume of attacks.

Just be careful since they may be using Avenging Strikes as their Exarch power so losing just 1 model out of 10 means a permanent +1 Hit & Wound so kill them squads at a time. If the player is expecting lot's of melee they may put Defend on whichever squad of 10 they have up front as well.

I'm impressed by your opponent's positioning though, my Fire Prisms have always been glass cannons that get blown to bits early on.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 15:16:00


Post by: dammit


My experience has been completely different to that 'should' though.

I wonder if we play with too much terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Agreed with everything above.
I'm impressed by your opponent's positioning though, my Fire Prisms have always been glass cannons that get blown to bits early on.


They're out of los until they choose to shoot, and then only one has to poke it's hull out. Like I said, I wonder if we play too much terrain if you folks are suggesting it should be possible to ever actually see any of these non-los weapons.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 15:22:37


Post by: The Red Hobbit


May not be the density of the terrain but the sizing. My old FLGS had lots of terrain but very few of them would be big enough to completely obscure a Fire Prism. Those that were are usually reserved for mid-field terrain to discourage castles.

You've given me hope on the Fire Prism though, I'm going to dig it up after we PCS and try it at our next store.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 15:23:45


Post by: Lammia


dammit wrote:
My experience has been completely different to that 'should' though.

I wonder if we play with too much terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Agreed with everything above.
I'm impressed by your opponent's positioning though, my Fire Prisms have always been glass cannons that get blown to bits early on.


They're out of los until they choose to shoot, and then only one has to poke it's hull out. Like I said, I wonder if we play too much terrain if you folks are suggesting it should be possible to ever actually see any of these non-los weapons.
Too much terrain should favour melee, getting close enough to get those charges off.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 15:26:32


Post by: U02dah4


So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles

Wait for it to poke its nose out to shoot then bring your retributors on from the board edge and shoot its nose

A highly dense terrain board probably works better for you he's a shooty list your an infantry horde.

Can you give us your list


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 15:27:45


Post by: dammit


It should, unless the only charges available are 5-model dire avenger squads and then you're dead in the following turn.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 15:30:24


Post by: U02dah4


Those are the things you want to be chargeing

First priority shining spears
Second priority dire avengers

Single retributor priority fire prism


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 15:53:41


Post by: dammit


U02dah4 wrote:
So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles

A highly dense terrain board probably works better for you he's a shooty list your an infantry horde.

Can you give us your list


its kind of irrelevant given the new codex and this predates that, but the the last time I ran sisters against this list.

VH batallion

canoness,
palatine
triumph

4x5 BS

5 celestians (triple meltagun)
imagifier
preacher
2x9 repentia

2x5 seraphim with inferno pistols
5 dominions with storm bolters

4 mortifiers
2x5 rets w/multi-melta.

3x rhinos.

Haven't built a new list since the codex dropped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles


I feel like we're playing a completely different game because yes that's trivial.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 17:44:02


Post by: ERJAK


dammit wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles

A highly dense terrain board probably works better for you he's a shooty list your an infantry horde.

Can you give us your list


its kind of irrelevant given the new codex and this predates that, but the the last time I ran sisters against this list.

VH batallion

canoness,
palatine
triumph

4x5 BS

5 celestians (triple meltagun)
imagifier
preacher
2x9 repentia

2x5 seraphim with inferno pistols
5 dominions with storm bolters

4 mortifiers
2x5 rets w/multi-melta.

3x rhinos.

Haven't built a new list since the codex dropped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles


I feel like we're playing a completely different game because yes that's trivial.


You must be using an absolute feth ton of obscuring terrain for keeping that many units out of LoS from 30" (42" with the previous book) from any angle on either side of the board to be possible. Which I guess would explain why no LoS shooting is as big of a deal for your meta as you say it is.

As for just beating that list:

AS Brigade or VH Brigade (go VH if he's really into Conceal/Reveal, Lightning Reflexes, and/or Dense Terrain)

Morvenn(Rerolls, Discourage Spears, Shoots Fireprisms well if they show their faces)
Stern(put on the opposite end of the blob from Morvenn to keep spears honest)
Canoness Blinding Radiance

3x5 BSS Squad with heavy bolter
1x20 BSS Squad with 2 heavy bolter (trap squad. They'll waste their blast into it and you can just defense buff it to hell. Be careful going second, don't overbuff. You want them to shoot at it but you don't want them to get too far in killing it)

Hospitaller Book of St. Lucius Indomitable belief(his fireprisms are his biggest damage threat, going 5++, 6+++ blunts their damage by about 1/3rd)
Dialogus Sigil, 4++, Catechism(more bait for the 20 squad)
2 Crusaders
2 Crusaders

Dominions 4 SB
Dominions 4 SB
Seraphim 4hF (drop to charbroil DA as they're one of the only units in the game hF are good into)

10 Rets 4HB, 2Cherubs
10 Rets 4HB, 2 Cherubs
10 Rets 4MM, 2 Cherubs

Between defensive buffs and wasting shots on a largely MSU force, he'll need 3 turns of shooting to really start to ramp up casualties if he brings everything. In that time anything that's visible should die to an absolute hail of heavy bolter shots. If he tries to hide everything and wear you down with the D cannons, you'll most likely be able to recover your losses with just the D3 rez strat. Stop Guide, all the other psychic powers are less relevant.

Movement will be a little wonky while you're still trying to maximize the Hospitaller but once the infantry is dead you can basically just sit on more objectives than him and go grab pizza while he finishes rolling dice.

If he presents the fireprisms as a target, dive on them with Morvenn and the Outflanking Melta Rets. The spears will be mostly handled by a combination of left over heavy bolter fire and Morvenn/Stern in Melee.

The D cannons are almost entirely irrelevant. Just don't let them shoot Morvenn.

This will probably work right up until the CWE codex releases to Drukhari stomping levels.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/21 19:08:34


Post by: U02dah4


dammit wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles

A highly dense terrain board probably works better for you he's a shooty list your an infantry horde.

Can you give us your list


its kind of irrelevant given the new codex and this predates that, but the the last time I ran sisters against this list.

VH batallion

canoness,
palatine
triumph

4x5 BS

5 celestians (triple meltagun)
imagifier
preacher
2x9 repentia

2x5 seraphim with inferno pistols
5 dominions with storm bolters

4 mortifiers
2x5 rets w/multi-melta.

3x rhinos.

Haven't built a new list since the codex dropped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote:
So as a general rule your one retributors squad should be in reserve and he shouldn't be able to hide both fireprisms completely on both flanks from all angles


I feel like we're playing a completely different game because yes that's trivial.


So the two problems with this list are with the triumph and mortifiers as a big chunk of your army is very vulnerable to multi damage weapons

While you have overloaded on melta (the Seraphim you can ditch as the pistols strat has made them worthless. The celestian squad and one of the rets too. That should leave you about 700pts for the good infantry.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 04:43:28


Post by: Lammia


You don't need the Rhinos either, with new dex...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 06:18:45


Post by: ZergSmasher


So, continuing my layman's review, here's how I feel about our Stratagems:

Cleansed by Fire: A Tier: This is the stratagem that makes our Heavy Flamers shine; it's amazing when used by Penitent Engines or Mortifiers, but honestly even a unit of Retributors can get good mileage out of it.

Embodied Prophecy: B Tier: Zephyrim might not be right for every list, but this at least helps you get every little bit of potential out of them.

Exceptional Proficiency: B Tier: Celestians might not be considered very good, but this also works on Sacresants and Paragon Warsuits, and it works for shooting or fighting.

Extremis Trigger Word: A Tier: Arco-Flagellants are already pretty solid, and this turns them up to 11. Combine with War Hymn and a full unit of Arcos will straight up murder anything they touch that is less than T6.

Suffer Not the Witch: C Tier: Much more situational than other strats, but when it's good, it's good. This will become more relevant once the books for Grey Knights and Tsons come out.

Divine Intervention: B Tier: Less good than it was due to the once per game limitation, but still a good way to keep one of your key characters on the board.

Fiery Oratory: A Tier: This is the way to get a Hymn off when you get out of a transport or come in from reserves. Or if you just want to pay a CP to not have to worry about flubbing the roll.

Martyr's Immolation: F Tier: Immolators are total gak right now, so this stratagem is useless.

Rites of Restoration: A Tier: If you bring a Hospitaller in your lists, chances are this is why. Getting d3 Retributors or Sacresants back is well worth a CP and can easily make up the points you paid for the Hospitaller.

Martyred: A Tier: Given how we will have fewer Miracle Dice than we did before, this is very useful and can soften the blow of losing a key character during a game.

Moment of Grace: B Tier: More limited than before, and our Miracle Dice are more precious than before as well. Still not a terrible way to use one or two low-numbered ones and make a save you would otherwise have failed.

Suffering and Sacrifice: D Tier: Kind of a cute idea, but it'll be pretty rare that you want your opponent to focus all their aggro on your expensive characters.

Open the Reliquaries: S Tier: Admit it, everyone's going to use this in every game, right?

A Sacred Burden: D Tier: Lets you put a relic from a limited list on a Superior instead of a Character. I can't think of any cases where this is likely to help much, but I'm open to suggestions if anyone disagrees.

Saint in the Making: S Tier: Again, everyone's using this at least once in pretty much every game.

Angelic Ascent: B Tier: Repositioning a unit of Seraphim or Zephyrim might be a useful thing, but it definitely won't come up in every game. Could be used to bail such a unit out of trouble if they get charged by something they don't want to tangle with (only useful if they survive, of course!).

Battle Rites: F Tier: In most games, you'll pick the Sacred Rite that is most relevant for your list, so you won't want to switch it mid-game.

Deadly Descent: C Tier: This lost a lot of its luster in the new book, as it no longer buffs the range on Seraphim pistols. Importantly, it also doesn't happen until the end of the phase (after all reinforcements are down), so you can't drop one unit, pop this to clear a screen, and then drop another unit closer to something juicy. One use it could have would be just as a "shoot twice" gimmick for flamer Seraphim, but unless your opponent has multiple targets in range, they'll just pull models in such a way as to leave you out of range after using the strat so you only shoot once anyway.

Defenders of the Faith: A Tier: If units of 20 Battle Sisters turn out to be worthwhile, this stratagem will obviously be key to their success. Transhuman Physiology-type effects have proven to be very powerful on armies that have access to them (coughdeathwingcough), and rapid firing at full range can be pretty clutch, especially if you also pop Blessed Bolts on equipped Storm Bolters. The only downside is that it has to be activated in your turn, so if your opponent goes first you won't have a chance to activate it.

Desperate for Redemption: A Tier: This is a good counterplay for "fight last" effects, as it makes it so Repentia get to swing when they die if they haven't already done so (similar to Space Wolves Wulfen).

Devastating Refrain: C Tier: This is the only possible reason you might bring an Exorcist, and it is a decently powerful ability to give one. Still doesn't make Exorcists good IMO, especially for 2CP.

Holy Rage: B Tier: This one will really shine in Bloody Rose lists, who would love to fall back and charge with something like Sacresants or Zephyrim to turn on their extra attacks on the charge. Repentia aren't likely to live long enough to use this, and they already have the Zealot ability. Sadly due to requiring the ADEPTA SORORITAS keyword, it doesn't work on Arco-Flagellants.

Purity of Faith: A Tier: Being able to use this after failing your Deny test is really good (gives you a second chance to veto a power). Won't come up in every game, but when it is relevant it is awesome!

Faith and Fury: B Tier: Not likely to be useful all that often, but could be a way to use midrange Miracle Dice (hit on 3 wound on 3 with just one dice, for example).

Final Redemption: A Tier: This could be a cheeky way to polish off a Knight or something that has the gall to survive an attack from your Pengines or Mortifiers, or just a good way to throw out some damage even if you are the one who gets charged (give those Shining Spears the birdy for charging and killing your walking torture racks!).

Judgment of the Faithful: A Tier: Fall back and shoot. Keeps your opponent from just tagging a unit of Retributors or Dominions to turn off their shooting next turn. Hilariously it requires CORE so it's no good on the tanks...

Righteous Impact: B Tier: Bring back a variation of the old Hammer of Wrath rule from older editions to make your walkers possibly do some damage when they charge something, particularly if it's lower toughness. Yet another reason why Mortifiers and Pengines are good, and potentially nice to have for Paragons as well if those can be made to work.

Blessed Bolts: S Tier: This is why lists should bring at least one unit of Storm Bolter Dominions. Pumping out a maximum of 6 mortal wounds could be really nasty when facing otherwise hard to kill enemies (like Death Guard or Deathwing Terminators) and can let Dominions punch above their weight.

Holy Smokescreen: C Tier: Good way to protect a Rhino or keep a lone Exorcist alive longer, but generally in a list with multiple Rhinos your opponent will just switch targets.

Holy Trinity: C Tier: Potentially good, but likely a trap. As others have pointed out in earlier posts, it actually benefits flamers and bolters more than meltas.

Inviolate Shieldwall: A Tier: This is really good for keeping Sacresants on the table, and one of the reasons why they are such a good brawler unit. Funnily enough it also works on Crusaders.

Thrice-Blessed Hull: C Tier: Make an enemy Psyker take Perils if they fail to cast while near one of your Rhino-chassis vehicles. Not likely to come up often, but kind of cute if it does. Like Suffer Not the Witch, it'll probably be more relevant once the two psyker Marine books come out.

Honour the Martyrs (Our Martyred Lady): B Tier: Thematically fun, and could be a good way to kill off a powerful enemy model after it shanks one of your characters.

Blind Faith (Valourous Heart): C Tier: Modifiers are less prevalent in 9th edition, so this is pretty situational.

Tear Them Down (Bloody Rose): A Tier: Getting some auto-wounds is fairly powerful, and doubly so on Repentia who get to reroll their hits with Zealot (so more chances at getting 6's to hit).

Cleansing Flames (Ebon Chalice): B Tier: This is perhaps one thing that could make Seraphim strong, as they can pump out mortal wounds with their flamers. Good on other flamer-toting models also, of course. Main downside is the fact that it's capped at 3 mortals.

Faith Is Our Shield (Argent Shroud): B Tier: Halving your mortal wounds can be strong against some armies, but irrelevant against armies that don't have a lot of mortal wound sources.

The Emperor's Judgment (Sacred Rose): A Tier: To me, this is probably what might make Sacred Rose worth playing. Incredibly nasty on a unit of Retributors with Multimeltas.

Overall we are in a great place with our stratagems. Very few stinkers, and most of those are that way because they buff mediocre units. Honestly one of the hardest part of playing Sisters is remembering all the different Strats (especially because Sisters have a lot of other stuff going on).


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 07:37:48


Post by: U02dah4


Thing with holy trinity is s combi-flamer on the sgt is all you need to activate it on a retributor squad and that's a pretty decent boost


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 08:49:00


Post by: dammit


+1 to wound scales better the worse the original roll was, so it's going to help flamers more in most cases yes.

On dominions it only just slightly outscales taking a fifth of the target type (ie. taking a fifth flamer instead of turning on HT. It's worse when s>t.

On rets, the math works out more in HT's favour, because the combi-weapon isn't as good a profile as the heavy weapon variant. The maths here was posted in this thread of the previous one.

Of course, on celestians or basic sisters, sticking a second weapon in will always outscale +1 to wound.

As for deadly descent and fiery orator, theres the added benefit that these can be 'unusual phase' wounds against the likes of ghaz, or ctan shards. Getting a third or a fourth phase of damage against these models could be the difference between them surviving into your opponents turn, or not.

Initially I was a little down on blessed bolts, especially when surface-level compared to wrath of mars. But yeah, it's auto-wound, ignore invulns, ignore d-1, that maxes out on an 80 point unit. Incredible.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 09:31:34


Post by: BrianDavion


A Sacred Burden: D Tier: Lets you put a relic from a limited list on a Superior instead of a Character. I can't think of any cases where this is likely to help much, but I'm open to suggestions if anyone disagrees.


I could see using this to drop blessing of sebastion thor on a specific unit to give it a sacred rite that would be helpful to it. in that case you're effectively spending a single CP to give an entire unit the benifits of an additional sacred rite. which... could have some situational value (such as giving hand of the emperor to a melee squad etc)


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 10:09:08


Post by: shabadoit


BrianDavion wrote:
A Sacred Burden: D Tier: Lets you put a relic from a limited list on a Superior instead of a Character. I can't think of any cases where this is likely to help much, but I'm open to suggestions if anyone disagrees.


I could see using this to drop blessing of sebastion thor on a specific unit to give it a sacred rite that would be helpful to it. in that case you're effectively spending a single CP to give an entire unit the benifits of an additional sacred rite. which... could have some situational value (such as giving hand of the emperor to a melee squad etc)


My reading of the relic is that the unit can have 2 entirely separate Sacred Rites. Possibly useful to have a melee unit with Passion and Hand while the rest of the army has Divine Guidance or Aegis. I think it could see play on Sacresants or Zephrym


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 10:18:55


Post by: BrianDavion


shabadoit wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
A Sacred Burden: D Tier: Lets you put a relic from a limited list on a Superior instead of a Character. I can't think of any cases where this is likely to help much, but I'm open to suggestions if anyone disagrees.


I could see using this to drop blessing of sebastion thor on a specific unit to give it a sacred rite that would be helpful to it. in that case you're effectively spending a single CP to give an entire unit the benifits of an additional sacred rite. which... could have some situational value (such as giving hand of the emperor to a melee squad etc)


My reading of the relic is that the unit can have 2 entirely separate Sacred Rites. Possibly useful to have a melee unit with Passion and Hand while the rest of the army has Divine Guidance or Aegis. I think it could see play on Sacresants or Zephrym


agreed. it's situational but yeah potentially useful if you're running a gun army but wanna maximize your melee punch on a specific one. I mean, even just "1 CP to add +1 to charge and advance rolls to a unit for the rest of the game" is pretty solid, when you think of it that way.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 15:05:20


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


Agreed on A Sacred Burden, that's how I plan on running it. Also a useful way to get Litanies of Faith on a backfield unit that won't see combat, thereby maximizing its usefulness and freeing up relics for your other characters.

Also, I feel like it's unfair to call Martyr's Immolation an F-tier strategem. The strategem itself is good, it could be very useful, it just suffers for being tied to taking Immolators.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 15:12:06


Post by: dammit


Not just immolators, immolators with flamers.



Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 19:25:05


Post by: ERJAK


U02dah4 wrote:
Thing with holy trinity is s combi-flamer on the sgt is all you need to activate it on a retributor squad and that's a pretty decent boost


The problem is with Melta you do almost exactly the same amount of damage with a Combi-MELTA without spending the CP, which means on turns where you can't use HT for whatever reason, you're paying the same points for less damage and basically using CP to make up for your inefficient loadout decision. It ends up being a terrible nothing boost that tricks people into wasting CP.

For flamers, taking a combimelta isn't terrible and +1 to wound makes a bigger overall difference. They also tend to suffer less from shooting at melta at flamer targets than you suffer shooting a flamer at melta targets.

Holy trinity is pretty much flamer only for this reason.

(oh, also anytime you create rangebanding issues ala taking a multimelta and a handflamer on a squad of HB rets, that's immediately a bad idea.)


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 19:38:29


Post by: U02dah4


3.95 melta wounds with combi melta

4.47 melta wounds with combi flamer and holy trinity

Assuming 3+ hit and t7

With armorium cherubs

5.7 melta wounds with combi melta

6.7 melta wounds with combi melta and holy trinity


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 21:03:43


Post by: shabadoit


If 20 blocks of Sisters become a thing I suppose a combi flamer/MM load out might be worth considering for holy trinity, even with the counter synergy with the auto would hymn.

I don't really think 20 blocks are going to be a thing though.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/22 21:52:04


Post by: Mmmpi


I'm willing to try them out.

Two multimeltas, two Uber-Stormbolters, and a combi-flamer, and use it as a fast moving fire base, with 15 sisters to soak up return fire.

I'll let you guys know how it works out once I actually get to try it...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 03:39:27


Post by: MacPhail


I'm chasing down a Codex this week, but here's a question in the meantime. I had just built a handful of models when it became clear that the new 'dex was inbound, so I held off on finishing them and assigning them to a squad. Where would the following loadouts fit best under the new rules?
~two multi-meltas
~one power maul with unassigned combi weapon
~one chainsword with bolter
~one simulacrum

I was going to build a Retributer squad (my first) around the multi-meltas, chainsword, and simulacrum, while the power maul was going to lead my second unit of Celestians. Are there better places for those multi-meltas now? Should the maul scout up with some Dominions? Which combi-weapon should I choose? Who needs simulacra most? Woooo, my head is spinning!


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 04:01:31


Post by: ERJAK


U02dah4 wrote:
3.95 melta wounds with combi melta

4.47 melta wounds with combi flamer and holy trinity

Assuming 3+ hit and t7

With armorium cherubs

5.7 melta wounds with combi melta

6.7 melta wounds with combi melta and holy trinity


I did the math better already on the first page. You haven't even defined which unit you're measuring, let alone your loadouts. You also appear to be doing one model at a time which is just about the worst way you could evaluate a squad level buff.

5 melta guns from melta doms do 7.77 damage to a T7 target, 4 MM rets do 12.5 damage(19.5 in melta range). 4 melta doms and a combi flamer superior with trinity do approximatley .58 additional damage(so 8.5ish) vs 5 meltas at the cost of 1CP and doing significantly LESS damage when you don't use that CP.

The retributor example isn't worth mathing out. The extra 12 inches is the entire point of retributors, wasting points creating silly rangebanding issues is a bad idea. Slap a handflamer on a squad with a simulacrum because its 5 points who cares, but it's Not an efficient use of our only meaningful midrange shooting optoon to be trying to close down into danger close.(It's 30 with no HT to 36 againt T7 with 2 cherubs,which would be nice if you got bonus points for killing a razorback 3 times)

You're also locking yourself into shooting 8-12 melta shots into the same unit. In melta range. In ana army that can easily guarantee 8 damage on a shot.

TLDR: Don't use HT on melta doms cause it doesn't do anything, don't plan to use HT on melta rets because the extra range is the best part of that unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mmmpi wrote:
I'm willing to try them out.

Two multimeltas, two Uber-Stormbolters, and a combi-flamer, and use it as a fast moving fire base, with 15 sisters to soak up return fire.

I'll let you guys know how it works out once I actually get to try it...


My question is how are you going to swing the 'fast moving' part. Even argent shroud hand of the emperor is only 10'5 inches on average. It's not bad but it's not exactly 'blistering'.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 04:45:58


Post by: ZergSmasher


Personally I think the 20-girl blob should take 4 storm bolters, to potentially use Blessed Bolts (which combines well with Defenders of the Faith to get rapid fire shots at 24" since storm bolters are bolt weapons). I suppose MM are a decent option too, though, but more expensive.

Speaking of the 20-girl blob, which Order do you all think would be best for them, assuming the concept turns out to be sound? Valourous Heart for the defensive buffs? Argent Shroud to allow them to advance and shoot? Or maybe even Sacred Rose so they only lose one model to a failed Morale test?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 05:30:34


Post by: Lammia


 MacPhail wrote:
I'm chasing down a Codex this week, but here's a question in the meantime. I had just built a handful of models when it became clear that the new 'dex was inbound, so I held off on finishing them and assigning them to a squad. Where would the following loadouts fit best under the new rules?
~two multi-meltas
~one power maul with unassigned combi weapon
~one chainsword with bolter
~one simulacrum

I was going to build a Retributer squad (my first) around the multi-meltas, chainsword, and simulacrum, while the power maul was going to lead my second unit of Celestians. Are there better places for those multi-meltas now? Should the maul scout up with some Dominions? Which combi-weapon should I choose? Who needs simulacra most? Woooo, my head is spinning!
First Ret squad is still a good place for 2 MM, I don't think Doms need a Power Maul (Still on Celestian Superior), Simulacra have gone down in value; but probably Doms.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 05:38:44


Post by: Leth


2x Extra Relics, 2x Extra warlord traits, patrol detachment - starting at 6 CP

Order: Argent Shroud

Celestine and Geminae Superia
Morvenn Vahl - Warlord

4x5 Battle Sisters Squad - Multimelta

10x Celestian Sacresants - Halberd and squad leader upgrade
Dogmata - Relic: The Sigil Ecclesiasticus

5x Seraphim 4x hand flamers
10x Zephyrim - Banner

2x Rhino

Ebon Chalice patrol

No force org

9x Arco-Flagellants - squad leader upgrade
2x Crusaders
Hospitaller Relic: Book of St. Lucius, Stratagem: Saint in the Making: Indomitable Belief

Canoness Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Relic: Litanies of Faith, Stratagem: Saint in the Making: Terrible Knowledge

5x Battle sister

Preacher

5x Dominion, 4x stormbolter

Retributor Squad 2x Armourium Cherub, hand flamer, 4x heavy flamer

Sororitas Rhino


Here is my first crack at a 2k list, initial impressions are that I really like the versatility it brings to the table, the amount of mortal wounds that can be pumped out in a turn, while also bringing a little future proofing if hordes become a thing,

Dominions, rets go in a rhino giving the flamers an effective 31 inch threat range turn one (6 inch scout, 9 inch disembark and move, 12 inch gun, 4 inches from stratagem)

Arcos, sacrosancts, or other combinations of units can use the rhinos depending on match up. Celestine, Vahl, hospitaler can buff both since they are order agnostic. Ebon chalice cannoness is just there to sit on an objective and provide the army wide benefits since vahl will go up field with the rest of the army.





Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 05:47:39


Post by: Giantwalkingchair


Had first game of new dex/battlescribe last night. Went up against death guard so D2 weapons had no chance to shine. Fortunately only a handful of those so no big deal.

Used custom order traits because my dudettes. Took the +4" range to flamers one as well as the +1 to hit against characters. Absolutely love 16" flame weapons and 22" immolation flamers.
The +1 against character was really good as it negated the -1 to hit he was putting on Morty.

Happy to take a 20 girls bss. Haven't done that since witch hunters days and was fun to do again. Took it as a melta spam squad but in future I think I'll put in flamers in stead of meltaguns for the special weapons to benefit from the flamer extra range. Several time the meltaguns did nothing due to being out of range.

Exorcist nerfs were noticeable. Going to only ap-2 saw so many saves being made by opponent and the drop to T7 was noticeable. T8 used to carry them fine but they were crumbling under T7.

Val's rerolls were nice but not game changing for me. She mostly did nothing all game but run up the board trying to find something to do.

Celestine feels better now. That 2mw on 6s to hit really helps her damage output along with the native -4ap. Had one round where she got 3x 6s to hit against morty which was plenty enough to finish him off from 4 wounds left.
The heal is very nice and I like the balance of it being an action.

Penitent engines being able to advance and charge is so nice. Really helps them get up the table especially with the 8" move now.
Being 2 damage still on the buzz saws is disappointing but hey, going against deathwatch didn't help them.

Sisters having extra strength on flamers is amazing. S5 normal flamers was fun times on dominion squad and wounding T5 on 3+ with holy trinity with the auto Max flamer strat was expensive but satisfying especially with divine guidance.
I have a sneaking suspicion that flamer strength will be going up across all armies, but we shall see and I shall enjoy feeling special while it lasts.

Battlescribe has a legends option for the cannoness for a second pistol so I had fun running a cannoness around with relic bolt pistol and an inferno pistol with the saintly blessing to pick out characters. (Me and buddy play pretty casual so all good there, also let me run my old gunslinging cannoness from an herald of ruin team kill game I modelled up)


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 07:46:20


Post by: U02dah4


ERJAK wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
3.95 melta wounds with combi melta

4.47 melta wounds with combi flamer and holy trinity

Assuming 3+ hit and t7

With armorium cherubs

5.7 melta wounds with combi melta

6.7 melta wounds with combi melta and holy trinity


I did the math better already on the first page. You haven't even defined which unit you're measuring, let alone your loadouts. You also appear to be doing one model at a time which is just about the worst way you could evaluate a squad level buff.

5 melta guns from melta doms do 7.77 damage to a T7 target, 4 MM rets do 12.5 damage(19.5 in melta range). 4 melta doms and a combi flamer superior with trinity do approximatley .58 additional damage(so 8.5ish) vs 5 meltas at the cost of 1CP and doing significantly LESS damage when you don't use that CP.

The retributor example isn't worth mathing out. The extra 12 inches is the entire point of retributors, wasting points creating silly rangebanding issues is a bad idea. Slap a handflamer on a squad with a simulacrum because its 5 points who cares, but it's Not an efficient use of our only meaningful midrange shooting optoon to be trying to close down into danger close.(It's 30 with no HT to 36 againt T7 with 2 cherubs,which would be nice if you got bonus points for killing a razorback 3 times)

You're also locking yourself into shooting 8-12 melta shots into the same unit. In melta range. In ana army that can easily guarantee 8 damage on a shot.

TLDR: Don't use HT on melta doms cause it doesn't do anything, don't plan to use HT on melta rets because the extra range is the best part of that unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mmmpi wrote:
I'm willing to try them out.

Two multimeltas, two Uber-Stormbolters, and a combi-flamer, and use it as a fast moving fire base, with 15 sisters to soak up return fire.

I'll let you guys know how it works out once I actually get to try it...


My question is how are you going to swing the 'fast moving' part. Even argent shroud hand of the emperor is only 10'5 inches on average. It's not bad but it's not exactly 'blistering'.


Well it's clearly a retributor melta squad nothing else has armorium cherubs and its what we were discussing

As to damage that's a stupid point of comparison it varies hugely by inv save of target whether the target has -1 damage whether the target is within 12.

Successfully wound roles is a far better point of comparison not because it gives you a damage figure for all these circumstances but because it shows the comparative increase

You don't close down with retributors you bring them on from reserve nuke something then get blown away. their too valuable and too vulnerable at mid range their are just too many 24" guns - it might not be an efficient tool for killing multiple Razorbacks it is a more efficient build for killing something bigger like a knight or a leviathan dreadnought with its inv save and-1 damage or a custodes telemon dreadnought

Whether it's worth the CP is another question entirely

As to range limitation just because you have it doesn't mean you have to fire at a target within 12 you can just not holy trinity however doing so just causes the unit to perform identically to the combi melta as that won't be able to fire either


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 14:28:15


Post by: Marquis Vaulkhere


What are people's opinions so far for loadouts on the Sacresants? Halberds vs Mauls or mixing them?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 14:55:04


Post by: skycapt44


I've been wondering the same thing and I think with Bloody rose the mauls are nicer vs marines and the like but the added S of the halberd is better vs single W opponents. Depends what your meta is like.
I like the mauls for now with the special spear on the superior.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 15:15:04


Post by: Lammia


skycapt44 wrote:
I've been wondering the same thing and I think with Bloody rose the mauls are nicer vs marines and the like but the added S of the halberd is better vs single W opponents. Depends what your meta is like.
I like the mauls for now with the special spear on the superior.
I prefer Halberds. They fill a role Repentia don't


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 15:58:35


Post by: The Red Hobbit


 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Had first game of new dex/battlescribe last night. Went up against death guard so D2 weapons had no chance to shine. Fortunately only a handful of those so no big deal.

Used custom order traits because my dudettes. Took the +4" range to flamers one as well as the +1 to hit against characters. Absolutely love 16" flame weapons and 22" immolation flamers.
The +1 against character was really good as it negated the -1 to hit he was putting on Morty.

If you were facing an army with very few characters what would your runner up be for the custom order traits? I'm a fan of flamer dominions & Seraphim so I'm glad to hear the +4" to flamers worked out well for you, I've considered it myself and have been wondering what to pair it with.


Battlescribe has a legends option for the cannoness for a second pistol so I had fun running a cannoness around with relic bolt pistol and an inferno pistol with the saintly blessing to pick out characters. (Me and buddy play pretty casual so all good there, also let me run my old gunslinging cannoness from an herald of ruin team kill game I modelled up)

Nothing wrong with reusing a favorite figure from KT/HoR, I'm the same way. How'd you like using a dual pistol cannoness compared to a traditional one?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 18:08:57


Post by: U02dah4


 Marquis Vaulkhere wrote:
What are people's opinions so far for loadouts on the Sacresants? Halberds vs Mauls or mixing them?


Halberd in non BR mauls in BR


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 21:40:15


Post by: Giantwalkingchair


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Had first game of new dex/battlescribe last night. Went up against death guard so D2 weapons had no chance to shine. Fortunately only a handful of those so no big deal.

Used custom order traits because my dudettes. Took the +4" range to flamers one as well as the +1 to hit against characters. Absolutely love 16" flame weapons and 22" immolation flamers.
The +1 against character was really good as it negated the -1 to hit he was putting on Morty.

If you were facing an army with very few characters what would your runner up be for the custom order traits? I'm a fan of flamer dominions & Seraphim so I'm glad to hear the +4" to flamers worked out well for you, I've considered it myself and have been wondering what to pair it with.


If I were forced to choose, I'd probably go the discard 1MD to make another a 6. Because my dice are ice and having that ability there in a pinch would be helpful.
I mean it's not super fantastic for a flamer heavy list, but using the strat to modify a roll with MD while proved very useful multiple times in my game, gets expensive. So having a native ability to like that to save on cp would be nice.


Battlescribe has a legends option for the cannoness for a second pistol so I had fun running a cannoness around with relic bolt pistol and an inferno pistol with the saintly blessing to pick out characters. (Me and buddy play pretty casual so all good there, also let me run my old gunslinging cannoness from an herald of ruin team kill game I modelled up)

Nothing wrong with reusing a favorite figure from KT/HoR, I'm the same way. How'd you like using a dual pistol cannoness compared to a traditional one?


Aside from the fun and nostalgia? It's just a combat trade off. A trade off I'm fine with as I like to shoot. She runs alongside a small squad of storm bolter celestians, so that all becomes a very nice little dakka blob. The inferno pistol on her gives her some nice heavy hitting power and with pistols being able to be used in combat, she's not inconsiderable.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 22:13:08


Post by: The Red Hobbit


I like the trick to create a 6 on the MD but not sure I like it enough to pick a trait on it. I was considering righteous suffering for the additional durability of footsloggers.

Dakka cannoness sounds fun, especially when paired with a squad of upgraded storm bolters.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 22:42:42


Post by: MacPhail


U02dah4 wrote:
 Marquis Vaulkhere wrote:
What are people's opinions so far for loadouts on the Sacresants? Halberds vs Mauls or mixing them?


Halberd in non BR mauls in BR

I'm tempted to build the Sacresants with halberds and spread the mauls out among various Superiors, especially Celestians and Dominions who tend to work up close.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/23 23:30:43


Post by: Giantwalkingchair


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I like the trick to create a 6 on the MD but not sure I like it enough to pick a trait on it. I was considering righteous suffering for the additional durability of footsloggers.

Dakka cannoness sounds fun, especially when paired with a squad of upgraded storm bolters.


Righteous suffering would be good there especially if you're going up against a lot of S6+ weapons.
I usually go pretty vehicle heavy so I wouldn't see much use outside the 20 girl blob unit.
Another one I'd consider is the Guided by Emperors Will to reroll 1 hit or wound roll in shooting for each unit. Cuz, you know, that's just pretty darn good. Free cp reroll for every unit essentially.

Dakkaness is fun, I plan on doing her regularly. One thing I did forget that game was the Righteous Judgement blessing in the cannoness in addition to ignoring Look Out Sir also inflicts a mortal wound on 6 to wound on top of normal. So divine guidance rite ups the relic pistol to ap-2 on 6s to wound as well as MW. Also makes the inferno very nice in that combo for ap-5 and MW. Easily relied on if have a 6 in MD or the conviction to pull out that 6.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 00:18:11


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Sounds like a lot of fun, I'll have to model a Dakkaness with my extra bits in the future.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 09:41:25


Post by: BrianDavion


So what do people think of sacred rose right now? my girls are painted up with white armor and are clearly "sacred rose inspired" so I'm wondering if their conviction is any good. I'm thinking SR might be THE way to go if you wanna run 20 sister squads. but what do others think?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 10:30:39


Post by: Lammia


BrianDavion wrote:
So what do people think of sacred rose right now? my girls are painted up with white armor and are clearly "sacred rose inspired" so I'm wondering if their conviction is any good. I'm thinking SR might be THE way to go if you wanna run 20 sister squads. but what do others think?
Armour may say SR but they could be any order.

But, yes. If I was to run 20 girl squad it would be in SR.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 11:16:17


Post by: BrianDavion


Lammia wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
So what do people think of sacred rose right now? my girls are painted up with white armor and are clearly "sacred rose inspired" so I'm wondering if their conviction is any good. I'm thinking SR might be THE way to go if you wanna run 20 sister squads. but what do others think?
Armour may say SR but they could be any order.

But, yes. If I was to run 20 girl squad it would be in SR.


yeah I'm aware I can run with any tactics(proably use the custom order stuff) just was wondering if SR was worth even LOOKING AT now.

how do people rate each order now I'm curious?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 11:33:36


Post by: Spoletta


SR are currently seen as one of the best orders.
Doubling the amount of MD is just too good.

I'm currently putting together an SR list which packs a lot of nasty tricks.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 11:52:25


Post by: KurtAngle2


Spoletta wrote:
SR are currently seen as one of the best orders.
Doubling the amount of MD is just too good.

I'm currently putting together an SR list which packs a lot of nasty tricks.


It's also the best way to run 20sized squads of Sisters which you will definitely do to abuse a Transhuman/Double Objective secured/5++ (4++ with the Hymn)


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 12:14:54


Post by: Spoletta


I'm not sold on the 20 girl squad, for now I'm going with 2x10 and 3x5. Blasts hurt a lot on sisters.

I could test joining together the first 2 though.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 12:34:24


Post by: KurtAngle2


Spoletta wrote:
I'm not sold on the 20 girl squad, for now I'm going with 2x10 and 3x5. Blasts hurt a lot on sisters.

I could test joining together the first 2 though.


Blast is irrelevant when it's mostly antitank weapons


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 14:00:12


Post by: Spoletta


Blast is irrelevant on my gants.
On sisters it starts being a problem.

There are quite a few platforms who like having a big blob of sisters as a target, especially since we are unlikely to bring vehicles, so they would be left without good targets.

Inceptors
Manticores
Leman Russes
...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 14:24:16


Post by: U02dah4


It's also a continuous CP demand- I don't think it's a terrible strategy but it has significant drawbacks.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 16:29:36


Post by: bullyboy


So thoughts on the following....

Briefly describe how each army composition should roughly look for each of the main orders. What units are must haves, what sizes, etc. At least to benefit the most from the Order itself.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 17:12:28


Post by: U02dah4


I'm not sure pure order is the way to build.

Half and half seems better


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 20:10:46


Post by: Lammia


U02dah4 wrote:
I'm not sure pure order is the way to build.

Half and half seems better
But then you have to paint them different


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 20:42:53


Post by: Archebius


Lammia wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
I'm not sure pure order is the way to build.

Half and half seems better
But then you have to paint them different
Only if you're playing in GW official tournaments, right? Or is ITC adopting that as well?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 21:15:37


Post by: U02dah4


1) That is a GW only rule

2) mine are painted that way already - bases for squad paint scheme for detatchment

3) being able to identify squad and detatchment has been around most events I've been to since 8th its not new

4) from a strategic perspective picking your army based on only having one paint scheme isn't even a consideration


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 23:34:22


Post by: ERJAK


Archebius wrote:
Lammia wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
I'm not sure pure order is the way to build.

Half and half seems better
But then you have to paint them different
Only if you're playing in GW official tournaments, right? Or is ITC adopting that as well?


You have to have some obvious method of telling the two detachments apart in ANY event. It doesn't always have to be paint but any TO worth their salt is not going to let a player show up with a 'just trust me bro' combination of multiple Convictions on otherwise identical units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote:
SR are currently seen as one of the best orders.
Doubling the amount of MD is just too good.

I'm currently putting together an SR list which packs a lot of nasty tricks.


They're seen as one of the middle orders and it doesn't double MD, it boosts the average number of dice you're likely in a game by 50% of the total number of dice you use in a game. Argent Shroud is better for raw shooting power+mobility and most of the melee options with <Order> are terrible without Bloody Rose (Repentia do 80% more damage against marines with +1 Attack and an additional rend).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
So what do people think of sacred rose right now? my girls are painted up with white armor and are clearly "sacred rose inspired" so I'm wondering if their conviction is any good. I'm thinking SR might be THE way to go if you wanna run 20 sister squads. but what do others think?
Armour may say SR but they could be any order.

But, yes. If I was to run 20 girl squad it would be in SR.


I would still do Valorous Heart if I was running a blob mob. The extra damage resistance pretty much can't be replaced and the ignore modifiers strat makes them the only Conviction besides argent shroud that can get full power Melta Rets.

Nothing wrong with SR, I just think with battle sisters defense matters more than offense does.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/24 23:55:27


Post by: dammit


They're seen as one of the middle orders and it doesn't double MD, it boosts the average number of dice you're likely in a game by 50% of the total number of dice you use in a game.


Because you get 50% back of the 50% extra dice, and you get 50% of those back and so on, it eventually works out to be twice as many dice.

lets say you normally have 8 over the course of the game.

- use 8 (8 total). You'll get 4 back.
- use 4 (12). You'll get 2 back
- use 2 (14). You'll get 1 back.
- use 1 (15). At this point you're getting into fractions so let's stop there.

you'll have 50% more dice after the first set are recycled. By the end you'll have twice as many dice.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring the loss of the imagifier (it is a big loss) valorous heart is strictly better than before right?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 02:32:34


Post by: ZergSmasher


Is it just me, or do Zephyrim seem like they are solid in any order rather than just Bloody Rose? Even more so than Sacresants? They have their own wound-boosting stratagem that isn't order locked and they have 3 attacks base, both of which seem to make for a good universal melee unit.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 03:36:47


Post by: Either/Or


Accepting they are a sub-optimal choice, how would folks recommend arming a squad of Paragons?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 05:57:04


Post by: ZergSmasher


Either/Or wrote:
Accepting they are a sub-optimal choice, how would folks recommend arming a squad of Paragons?

Magnets. For a unit like this, the answer is always magnets. And they are pretty easy to do, other than the melee weapons (and those are doable, albeit very tricky).

Personally I think Multimeltas is the best choice for main guns, although it does make an already overcosted unit even costlier. It really depends on what role you want the unit to play though. If you already have plenty of anti-tank elsewhere in your list, you might be better off with heavy flamers and let the Paragons take an anti-infantry role. For the shoulder guns, I lean toward Storm Bolters as a TAC option. The grenade launcher might be okay for a purely anti-tank squad, but ultimately it's just two krak grenades per suit if you do that so I don't think it's worth it. Melee-wise, I originally thought the maces were better because damage 3, but once I realized that the sword confers an extra attack, I changed my mind. I think the sword is the best TAC option.

These might change in future editions (or even in this one if an FAQ has a major impact), hence my suggestion to magnetize and "future-proof" your models.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 08:45:37


Post by: Spoletta


If you intend to hymn the suits, then the maces benefit more than the swords.

Also, while BR does a lot for our melee options, you should still play some melee even in other orders. That is because a unit removed in melee is an additional MD, which are very important now.
Unfortunately, Arcos and Pengines do not work for that, since they are not Adepta Sororitas. I suggest mortifiers and Zephs.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 11:41:16


Post by: Lammia


Spoletta wrote:
If you intend to hymn the suits, then the maces benefit more than the swords.

Also, while BR does a lot for our melee options, you should still play some melee even in other orders. That is because a unit removed in melee is an additional MD, which are very important now.
Unfortunately, Arcos and Pengines do not work for that, since they are not Adepta Sororitas. I suggest mortifiers and Zephs.
Repentia are the best choice for that.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 16:00:41


Post by: Either/Or


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Either/Or wrote:
Accepting they are a sub-optimal choice, how would folks recommend arming a squad of Paragons?

Magnets. For a unit like this, the answer is always magnets. And they are pretty easy to do, other than the melee weapons (and those are doable, albeit very tricky).

Personally I think Multimeltas is the best choice for main guns, although it does make an already overcosted unit even costlier. It really depends on what role you want the unit to play though. If you already have plenty of anti-tank elsewhere in your list, you might be better off with heavy flamers and let the Paragons take an anti-infantry role. For the shoulder guns, I lean toward Storm Bolters as a TAC option. The grenade launcher might be okay for a purely anti-tank squad, but ultimately it's just two krak grenades per suit if you do that so I don't think it's worth it. Melee-wise, I originally thought the maces were better because damage 3, but once I realized that the sword confers an extra attack, I changed my mind. I think the sword is the best TAC option.

These might change in future editions (or even in this one if an FAQ has a major impact), hence my suggestion to magnetize and "future-proof" your models.


Agree regarding magnets, but I know myself and am too lazy for that route.

My initial instinct was the multi-meltas as well. Does that make them too juicy of a target vs having MMs in squads with ablative bodies? Given their melee ability the H flamer seems like a good pairing especially with str 6, but the D2 of heavy bolters seems like the better anti marine option, but that brings me full circle to MMs have almost as many shots, hit harder, and range is unlikely to be an issue since these seem more like mid field brawler type units.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 16:36:59


Post by: bullyboy


I've built the superior with mace and MM, but not sure about other 2. Will probably be sword, but don't know about MM or HF. Need to assess my AT elsewhere.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 19:43:02


Post by: ZergSmasher


 bullyboy wrote:
So thoughts on the following....

Briefly describe how each army composition should roughly look for each of the main orders. What units are must haves, what sizes, etc. At least to benefit the most from the Order itself.

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind I have yet to play a game with the new book so this is all theoryhammer:

Martyred Lady: For this order, I think bigger squads is the way to go. If the 20-girl unit proves to be a viable strategy, this is probably a decent place for it. Junith Eruita is probably a good buy also, especially if you are running the big blob as she can give it Light Cover even out in the open. If you take Retributors, take the full 10 bodies; it'll force your opponent to commit hard to wipe the whole unit in order to prevent it getting the hit buff from the order conviction, and that could mean your other units live longer. As for what units are good, I think stuff like Retributors, Dominions, and even basic Battle Sister Squads (all at 10-model strength) should do okay. For melee, take 10-girl units of Zephyrim or Sacresants. One other thing I'd mention is I really like the relic Inferno pistol; it's basically a better Meltagun.

Valorous Heart: Here, I think you want to play more defensively, so Sacresants are probably quite good (ignore AP-1 combos nicely with 2+ saves). I think I'd take the Halberds as a TAC option, as the Maces seem more suited to Bloody Rose (where the extra AP makes them much more attractive). Paragons might be best in this order, as again ignoring AP-1 and reducing AP-2 can help them deal with some of the higher ROF weapons, but I admit it does nothing against meltas or Dark Lances. I really think you want to stack defensive buffs on this order as much as possible, so take a Dialogus or Dogmata for the hymn that gives +1 to SOF saves, and take a character with Indomitable Belief (could be the aforementioned hymn caller) to give you a 5++ on top of your AP reduction. This would be another decent choice for the 20-girl BSS, as the defensive ability of VH could make them a little harder to shift with small-arms fire (like Bolt Rifles that often are AP-1 and never better than -2). I would also take at least one squad of MM Retributors, as the VH stratagem allows them to ignore hit modifiers (such as the one that they take if they have to move).

Bloody Rose: Obviously, take a lot of melee stuff, as that is where this order shines. Far and away the best Order for Repentia, it also is pretty solid for Zephyrim and Sacresants. Even regular old Celestians can do okay in melee in this Order, especially if they have an Imagifier nearby boosting their strength. And the Imagifier is easily worth taking in this order, as is any kind of Priest unit for War Hymn (could stick with a regular old Preacher). You probably want to take a Canoness even if you are running Morvenn Vahl, as Benificence will allow that Canoness to brutally murder hordes of small gribblies (especially if she also takes the BR warlord trait). If you want to go for big game with your murder Canoness, take a Blessed Blade and upgrade it to the Blade of St. Ellynor instead. 6 attacks on the charge (assuming BR trait is taken) that deal 3 damage apiece is pretty frickin' nasty! Another thing you'll probably want to do in this Order is take a couple of units of Dominions, put them in Rhinos, and take a couple of 5-girl melee units (like Repentia or Sacresants with maces) up the board with them.

Ebon Chalice: Because of the EC stratagem, I think at least some Flamer units are a must. Retributors or Seraphim are the main ones that spring to mind for this, but even Paragons with flamers could be useful. I think you're still going to want some Meltas in there for anti-tank. And you should take the Terrible Knowledge warlord trait on some character because it's probably the best thing EC have access to. What else you take in your list would probably depend on which Sacred Rites you choose. Since you get to take two, you should probably always take the same two and build your list around them.

Argent Shroud: With the reroll ability, you should probably go full MSU. Take like 6 BSS and stick a Multi-melta in each one; in addition to the rerolls you can move and shoot without penalty (you can even Advance!). Retributors really love the move and shoot thing too, so go nuts! Melee-wise, I think I'd stick to non-Order stuff like Mortifiers/Pengines, or even Celestine. The regular melee units don't really benefit from the Order very much, although you still could take them if you wanted to without gimping yourself too badly. The AS warlord trait lets you always fight first and heroically intervene 6", so it's not too bad if you tool up a Canoness to take full advantage of it (Blessed Blade probably a must).

Sacred Rose: This is probably the other good home for the 20-girl BSS, as Morale is no longer a problem for it in this Order. I might also suggest spamming Meltas in this Order, as the stratagem makes 6's to hit explode into additional hits, although honestly it's not bad for stuff like Artificer Storm Bolters either. I feel like between the stratagem and the warlord trait, SR encourages a shooty build overall, as the trait allows your warlord to let a unit fall back and still shoot. The relic is probably the only case in which I would take a Brazier of Holy Fire in the entire codex, as it seems pretty good as a source of mortal wounds.

Overall I definitely like Bloody Rose and Argent Shroud the best, and Ebon Chalice is IMO the weakest, but honestly I think you could potentially build around any of them and have it work at least okay.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 20:00:40


Post by: KurtAngle2


I see nothing aside from Argent Shroud for MSU and Sacred rose for 20Sized BBS blobs:

- Martyred Lady is useless since you would need to have 20sized BSS and have 11 of them die to get a 2+ to Hit (meanwhile you are forced to spend 2 CP not to have the squad losing another 33%+1 models from Morale) and...a Miracle Dice per phase when a unit dies...both the additional Miracle Dice and the unit specific rules (CA immunity vs +1 to hit when <9) are better in Sacred Rose

- Ebon Chalice wouldn't be so bad if you had old Miracle Dice generation but as of now with fewer than half ways to generate them...big fat nope

- Bloody Rose is only good for Repentia and Paragons (and the latter are just a badly priced unit)...wouldn't play an allied detachment of them, let alone a monoBR army.

- VH durability bonus only applies to things like Sacrestans considering their 2+/4++ saves, a nerfed version of what you had before just can't save you from the fact that they have no damage, no MDs, no mobility and no CA immunity


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 20:13:35


Post by: bullyboy


Thanks Zerg, thats a great write up. Looks like my collection could go in so many directions, lol. May just go with a war of the roses approach, BR patrol with SR battalion. VH looks like a decent choice for my collection too.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 20:26:33


Post by: Lammia


Wow...

I Believe BR is still our best Order, our top lists haven't changed much with this Codex. What worked still works and the AP on pistols wasn't the reason we played BR(though is is a sad nerf)

VH doesn't quite have the staying power it had, but it doesn't need to castle either. I enjoy my games with them.

AS is our second best order now for MM fun.

Still need to properly look at how I'D build OooML...

SR is an interesting 'bells and whistles' option but I doubt it'll be meta defining.

EC may well see play as an interesting small detachment.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 20:33:09


Post by: U02dah4


also junith is useless her cover save is wholey within so doesnt work on 20 man blobs. martyred lady is better off with 5 man squads to fuel another order


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 21:12:49


Post by: ZergSmasher


KurtAngle2 wrote:
I see nothing aside from Argent Shroud for MSU and Sacred rose for 20Sized BBS blobs:

- Martyred Lady is useless since you would need to have 20sized BSS and have 11 of them die to get a 2+ to Hit (meanwhile you are forced to spend 2 CP not to have the squad losing another 33%+1 models from Morale) and...a Miracle Dice per phase when a unit dies...both the additional Miracle Dice and the unit specific rules (CA immunity vs +1 to hit when <9) are better in Sacred Rose

Martyred Lady grants a unit +1 to hit when below starting strength. So if one girl dies from that big unit, the entire rest of the unit now hits on 2's. You don't have to lose 11 of them to turn on that buff. I'll agree that SR is still probably better, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you say.

@U02dah4: Good catch on Junith not really helping the big unit. I still think she's okay though.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 21:24:11


Post by: U02dah4


Yes but your first point is not that efficient sure it's OK but not great


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/25 22:04:17


Post by: KurtAngle2


 ZergSmasher wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
I see nothing aside from Argent Shroud for MSU and Sacred rose for 20Sized BBS blobs:

- Martyred Lady is useless since you would need to have 20sized BSS and have 11 of them die to get a 2+ to Hit (meanwhile you are forced to spend 2 CP not to have the squad losing another 33%+1 models from Morale) and...a Miracle Dice per phase when a unit dies...both the additional Miracle Dice and the unit specific rules (CA immunity vs +1 to hit when <9) are better in Sacred Rose

Martyred Lady grants a unit +1 to hit when below starting strength. So if one girl dies from that big unit, the entire rest of the unit now hits on 2's. You don't have to lose 11 of them to turn on that buff. I'll agree that SR is still probably better, but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you say.

@U02dah4: Good catch on Junith not really helping the big unit. I still think she's okay though.


For a moment I thought it was below Half Strenght and not starting, yikes


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 03:17:42


Post by: Taikishi


dammit wrote:
They're seen as one of the middle orders and it doesn't double MD, it boosts the average number of dice you're likely in a game by 50% of the total number of dice you use in a game.


Because you get 50% back of the 50% extra dice, and you get 50% of those back and so on, it eventually works out to be twice as many dice.

lets say you normally have 8 over the course of the game.

- use 8 (8 total). You'll get 4 back.
- use 4 (12). You'll get 2 back
- use 2 (14). You'll get 1 back.
- use 1 (15). At this point you're getting into fractions so let's stop there.

you'll have 50% more dice after the first set are recycled. By the end you'll have twice as many dice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring the loss of the imagifier (it is a big loss) valorous heart is strictly better than before right?


In theory, yes. In practice, no. Unfortunately, there are a number of issues that will likely result in you not doubling your MD:

1) You would actually have to start with 8MD, not 1. If you can start and spend 8MD and can spend every MD you recycle, you'll end with 12-20 MD spent 68% of the time. +/-3 Deviations yields 8 to 28 MD.

2) You have to be able to spend MD without restriction. The maximum you can spend on your turn without Similacrum is 6: 2 in the charge phase, 1 in each other phase except Psychic and Command. The maximum you can spend in your opponent's turn is 6 unless there's a way you can spend MD in their movement phase. 4 of those 6 are saves, the 5th is overwatch during the charge phase, and the 6th is morale. That's 72 MD possible. If you legitimately spend 72MD in one game, congratulations!

3) This doesn't take into consideration how each MD is being spent, nor does it consider other uses such as Moment of Grace or Miracles.

4) Rolls of 1 and 2, while more important to recycle into a good roll, are less likely to be spent on Acts of Faith outside of Morale checks than rolls of 3+; you're probably more likely to spend them on stratagems and Miracles.

5) Rolls of 3+ are likely to come back as 1s and 2s, giving you less incentive to spend those MD when they're recycled.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 04:51:21


Post by: The Red Hobbit


 ZergSmasher wrote:

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind I have yet to play a game with the new book so this is all theoryhammer:

That was a good read with a lot of insights, thanks for sharing! I also haven't played Sisters in 9E yet, I had tried monobloody rose in 8th but I think I'll try a different order or stick with a Custom Order for 9th since I never went too heavy with Repentia. I am curious what order do you think would benefit Seraphim the best, I've got them kitted with both handflamers and inferno pistols?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 09:15:43


Post by: ERJAK


Taikishi wrote:
dammit wrote:
They're seen as one of the middle orders and it doesn't double MD, it boosts the average number of dice you're likely in a game by 50% of the total number of dice you use in a game.


Because you get 50% back of the 50% extra dice, and you get 50% of those back and so on, it eventually works out to be twice as many dice.

lets say you normally have 8 over the course of the game.

- use 8 (8 total). You'll get 4 back.
- use 4 (12). You'll get 2 back
- use 2 (14). You'll get 1 back.
- use 1 (15). At this point you're getting into fractions so let's stop there.

you'll have 50% more dice after the first set are recycled. By the end you'll have twice as many dice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring the loss of the imagifier (it is a big loss) valorous heart is strictly better than before right?


In theory, yes. In practice, no. Unfortunately, there are a number of issues that will likely result in you not doubling your MD:

1) You would actually have to start with 8MD, not 1. If you can start and spend 8MD and can spend every MD you recycle, you'll end with 12-20 MD spent 68% of the time. +/-3 Deviations yields 8 to 28 MD.

2) You have to be able to spend MD without restriction. The maximum you can spend on your turn without Similacrum is 6: 2 in the charge phase, 1 in each other phase except Psychic and Command. The maximum you can spend in your opponent's turn is 6 unless there's a way you can spend MD in their movement phase. 4 of those 6 are saves, the 5th is overwatch during the charge phase, and the 6th is morale. That's 72 MD possible. If you legitimately spend 72MD in one game, congratulations!

3) This doesn't take into consideration how each MD is being spent, nor does it consider other uses such as Moment of Grace or Miracles.

4) Rolls of 1 and 2, while more important to recycle into a good roll, are less likely to be spent on Acts of Faith outside of Morale checks than rolls of 3+; you're probably more likely to spend them on stratagems and Miracles.

5) Rolls of 3+ are likely to come back as 1s and 2s, giving you less incentive to spend those MD when they're recycled.


Thank you for explaining the math while I forget that the dice compound themselves like a doofus. Don't know why I didn't think the extra dice would generate more dice.

There are 3 big issues with the way SR generates dice. One is as Taikishi pointed out, that even finding a way to use 1s or especially 2s is actually fairly difficult without hamstringing something. You could blow them on advance rolls on objective camping battle sisters but that generally means wasting at least some damage, even if its just bolter fire. Another is that, while it increases the odds of getting good dice, it doesn't guarantee them so you always have the potential of spamming through your dice and coming up with 1-3 and having them be largely useless. The last one is that it requires a decent pool of dice, or a lot of luck, to get the dice flowing. You almost need to combine them with OoML to get enough dice early enough for the recycle to be relevant. Being able to generate a half dozen extra dice on turn 4 isn't that great if you only generated 1 or 2 in the first two rounds.

It's a good conviction and I think there's a lot of interesting options to be had using it, I just don't think it can complete with the raw output of bloody rose or the flexibility of Argent Shroud.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind I have yet to play a game with the new book so this is all theoryhammer:

That was a good read with a lot of insights, thanks for sharing! I also haven't played Sisters in 9E yet, I had tried monobloody rose in 8th but I think I'll try a different order or stick with a Custom Order for 9th since I never went too heavy with Repentia. I am curious what order do you think would benefit Seraphim the best, I've got them kitted with both handflamers and inferno pistols?


Argent Shroud for advance and shoot or ebon chalice for mortal wounds on the drop.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 09:42:53


Post by: shabadoit


Taikishi wrote:
dammit wrote:
They're seen as one of the middle orders and it doesn't double MD, it boosts the average number of dice you're likely in a game by 50% of the total number of dice you use in a game.


Because you get 50% back of the 50% extra dice, and you get 50% of those back and so on, it eventually works out to be twice as many dice.

lets say you normally have 8 over the course of the game.

- use 8 (8 total). You'll get 4 back.
- use 4 (12). You'll get 2 back
- use 2 (14). You'll get 1 back.
- use 1 (15). At this point you're getting into fractions so let's stop there.

you'll have 50% more dice after the first set are recycled. By the end you'll have twice as many dice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignoring the loss of the imagifier (it is a big loss) valorous heart is strictly better than before right?


In theory, yes. In practice, no. Unfortunately, there are a number of issues that will likely result in you not doubling your MD:

...



I've played a couple of games with SR so far and honestly just the fact that (even at 50%) you can get no benefit for a couple of turns regularly enough can lead to some serious feel bads.
Late turns you'll likely to have evened out, but turn 1 and 2 both games bad rolls on the 4+ can mean it's a struggle to get the roll of dice going.

I don't think I'd run them without Beacon, and I don't know if I like any build that treats MD as anything other than an unreliable perk at this point.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 09:51:44


Post by: ERJAK


KurtAngle2 wrote:
I see nothing aside from Argent Shroud for MSU and Sacred rose for 20Sized BBS blobs:

- Martyred Lady is useless since you would need to have 20sized BSS and have 11 of them die to get a 2+ to Hit (meanwhile you are forced to spend 2 CP not to have the squad losing another 33%+1 models from Morale) and...a Miracle Dice per phase when a unit dies...both the additional Miracle Dice and the unit specific rules (CA immunity vs +1 to hit when <9) are better in Sacred Rose

- Ebon Chalice wouldn't be so bad if you had old Miracle Dice generation but as of now with fewer than half ways to generate them...big fat nope

- Bloody Rose is only good for Repentia and Paragons (and the latter are just a badly priced unit)...wouldn't play an allied detachment of them, let alone a monoBR army.

- VH durability bonus only applies to things like Sacrestans considering their 2+/4++ saves, a nerfed version of what you had before just can't save you from the fact that they have no damage, no MDs, no mobility and no CA immunity


Valorous Heart are still the best option for blob sisters because they're the only order that help them actually do what they're supposed to do, which is make taking objectives from you irritating. SR's stratagem doesn't really do much considering how little damage battle sisters do to begin with and avoiding Morale is nice but we already have a lot of ways to dodge that and Combat Attrition tests aren't honestly that huge of a deal. Losing less models thanks to VH's much better defense against high ROF weapons helps with Morale as well.

Bloody Rose is the only reason to take ANY melee unit with the <Order> Keyword(Yes, even sacresants). It's between 40 and 80% extra damage output to get the extra attack and AP. Combine that with them getting the absolute most value out of our only good sacred rite (The Passion) and Bloody Rose is still likely the best overall Conviction, though not the be all end all of the army that it was. Trying to purely outshoot your opponent, even with Argent Shroud, is most likely going to end in disappointment. We're actually worse off shooting than we were before the melta changes because at least back then the Exorcist was good.

OoML has already been covered by others.

Ebon Chalice is kind of meh, i agree. If sacred Rites weren't mostly useless, it would be a lot better.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 15:12:25


Post by: The Red Hobbit


ERJAK wrote:

Argent Shroud for advance and shoot or ebon chalice for mortal wounds on the drop.


Thanks for the tip! I've also got two Exorcists recently assembled, the -1T seems like a pretty big drop in survivability. One of them still provides a lot of versatility but do you think it's ever worth it to run two of them?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 16:13:15


Post by: Lammia


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
ERJAK wrote:

Argent Shroud for advance and shoot or ebon chalice for mortal wounds on the drop.


Thanks for the tip! I've also got two Exorcists recently assembled, the -1T seems like a pretty big drop in survivability. One of them still provides a lot of versatility but do you think it's ever worth it to run two of them?
No

Edit: Or to put it a better way, a MM Immolator and half a Pen. Engine is a more useful and more interesting use of the points... imho


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 17:38:27


Post by: bullyboy


So I'm going to put together a SR battalion first (as I've always liked the look of the white armour), and I'm going to lean into some MW output. With that I'm thinking the brazier relic, Stern, a Priest with blazing piety, and blessed bolts dominions. I've spread out my MMs a little to allow MD to be utilized. I'm not going with the single blob approach, rather 3x10 sisters as my core infantry. Is MW output even something to lean into?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 18:44:33


Post by: ERJAK


Lammia wrote:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
ERJAK wrote:

Argent Shroud for advance and shoot or ebon chalice for mortal wounds on the drop.


Thanks for the tip! I've also got two Exorcists recently assembled, the -1T seems like a pretty big drop in survivability. One of them still provides a lot of versatility but do you think it's ever worth it to run two of them?
No

Edit: Or to put it a better way, a MM Immolator and half a Pen. Engine is a more useful and more interesting use of the points... imho


And even that is STILL taking a model that's probably a waste of points.

It's funny to think about the fact that MM rets with double Cherubs are the same price as an MM immolator (150pts) but rets do TRIPLE the damage and ignore cover. I would even argue that against a lot of armies, the rets are more survivable as well thanks to Infantry, model size, and being 5 bodies instead of one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
So I'm going to put together a SR battalion first (as I've always liked the look of the white armour), and I'm going to lean into some MW output. With that I'm thinking the brazier relic, Stern, a Priest with blazing piety, and blessed bolts dominions. I've spread out my MMs a little to allow MD to be utilized. I'm not going with the single blob approach, rather 3x10 sisters as my core infantry. Is MW output even something to lean into?


Just keep in mind that almost every sisters of battle mortal wound ability is 12" range or lower, even Blessed bolts works best in rapid fire range.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 19:12:33


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Wow, if the immolator is a better choice than an exorcist it's truly gone downhill! Thanks for the advice.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 21:58:36


Post by: U02dah4


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind I have yet to play a game with the new book so this is all theoryhammer:

That was a good read with a lot of insights, thanks for sharing! I also haven't played Sisters in 9E yet, I had tried monobloody rose in 8th but I think I'll try a different order or stick with a Custom Order for 9th since I never went too heavy with Repentia. I am curious what order do you think would benefit Seraphim the best, I've got them kitted with both handflamers and inferno pistols?


The inferno pistol loadout no longer functions in 9th in 8th there stratagem made it work but with the change in the stratagem it no longer functions


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 22:06:29


Post by: bullyboy


U02dah4 wrote:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind I have yet to play a game with the new book so this is all theoryhammer:

That was a good read with a lot of insights, thanks for sharing! I also haven't played Sisters in 9E yet, I had tried monobloody rose in 8th but I think I'll try a different order or stick with a Custom Order for 9th since I never went too heavy with Repentia. I am curious what order do you think would benefit Seraphim the best, I've got them kitted with both handflamers and inferno pistols?


The inferno pistol loadout no longer functions in 9th in 8th there stratagem made it work but with the change in the stratagem it no longer functions


i wouldn't completely agree with this. 20pts for four fusion (edit: inferno...the harlequin coming out in me) shots is not to be discounted. I think using them as a reserve in your own deployment zone for counter attacks vs hvy hitters getting up close. It's still a cheap enough unit. Definitely not worth deep striking them in though.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/26 22:30:07


Post by: U02dah4


We have a lot of better reserves for that role such as repentia


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 00:30:03


Post by: bullyboy


U02dah4 wrote:
We have a lot of better reserves for that role such as repentia


Small units of repentia would need a transport to be survivable though, nor are they as mobile. 90pts is reasonable for such a unit. Again, not going to be a game winner, but if you have a unit with inferno pistols, probably will do some work.

edit: And just to be clear, I'm only stating this for someone who may have limited models and has already modeled 2 seraphim with infernos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, Am I crazy in thinking that a preacher with zealot's vindicator and Psalm of Righteous Smiting is a damn good deal for 30pts? It's a hvy flamer character that has 4 attacks in assault at S6, -3Ap and D2, rerolling hits and can fight one additional time at end of the fight phase if still in engagement range.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 01:44:56


Post by: The Red Hobbit


 bullyboy wrote:
And just to be clear, I'm only stating this for someone who may have limited models and has already modeled 2 seraphim with infernos.

btw, Am I crazy in thinking that a preacher with zealot's vindicator and Psalm of Righteous Smiting is a damn good deal for 30pts? It's a hvy flamer character that has 4 attacks in assault at S6, -3Ap and D2, rerolling hits and can fight one additional time at end of the fight phase if still in engagement range.


That's definitely me, Sisters is my smallest army so I'm making do with what I've got. I was deployed when they released so I missed out on the great value of that limited edition box set. I thought Miracle Dice made it the most interesting army in 8th and I enjoyed their previous books so I was happy to pick them up.

Zealot's Vindicator is the chainsword flamer used on the Pious Vorne model right?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 02:26:25


Post by: Lammia


 bullyboy wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
We have a lot of better reserves for that role such as repentia


Small units of repentia would need a transport to be survivable though, nor are they as mobile. 90pts is reasonable for such a unit. Again, not going to be a game winner, but if you have a unit with inferno pistols, probably will do some work.

edit: And just to be clear, I'm only stating this for someone who may have limited models and has already modeled 2 seraphim with infernos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, Am I crazy in thinking that a preacher with zealot's vindicator and Psalm of Righteous Smiting is a damn good deal for 30pts? It's a hvy flamer character that has 4 attacks in assault at S6, -3Ap and D2, rerolling hits and can fight one additional time at end of the fight phase if still in engagement range.
Deployed counter Inferno Seraphim is certainly something to try. Repentia are going to be flung at enemies.

Preachers only get War Hymn, but it's a good option for that.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 02:26:37


Post by: bullyboy


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
And just to be clear, I'm only stating this for someone who may have limited models and has already modeled 2 seraphim with infernos.

btw, Am I crazy in thinking that a preacher with zealot's vindicator and Psalm of Righteous Smiting is a damn good deal for 30pts? It's a hvy flamer character that has 4 attacks in assault at S6, -3Ap and D2, rerolling hits and can fight one additional time at end of the fight phase if still in engagement range.


That's definitely me, Sisters is my smallest army so I'm making do with what I've got. I was deployed when they released so I missed out on the great value of that limited edition box set. I thought Miracle Dice made it the most interesting army in 8th and I enjoyed their previous books so I was happy to pick them up.

Zealot's Vindicator is the chainsword flamer used on the Pious Vorne model right?


Yep, and seems like a pretty good deal to me.

At the moment I'm trying to figure out how best to farm MD for my SR army.

Outside of the +1 per BR and destroying enemy units and losing characters, what other ways are there?

Wondering if it's worth taking Beacon of faith as my WT even though my Canonness is unlikely to make much use of MD. However, if I just advance her each turn using her MD, i would technically get a 4+ opportunity to gain a MD for the army right?

repentia throwaway units can probably help too, plus maybe a few preachers. Just got to be careful to not easily give up Assassinate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
We have a lot of better reserves for that role such as repentia


Small units of repentia would need a transport to be survivable though, nor are they as mobile. 90pts is reasonable for such a unit. Again, not going to be a game winner, but if you have a unit with inferno pistols, probably will do some work.

edit: And just to be clear, I'm only stating this for someone who may have limited models and has already modeled 2 seraphim with infernos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, Am I crazy in thinking that a preacher with zealot's vindicator and Psalm of Righteous Smiting is a damn good deal for 30pts? It's a hvy flamer character that has 4 attacks in assault at S6, -3Ap and D2, rerolling hits and can fight one additional time at end of the fight phase if still in engagement range.
Deployed counter Inferno Seraphim is certainly something to try. Repentia are going to be flung at enemies.

Preachers only get War Hymn, but it's a good option for that.


Ah, missed that, so only Missionaries get the +1 hymn (from the first 3).


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 02:36:51


Post by: Lammia


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Wow, if the immolator is a better choice than an exorcist it's truly gone downhill! Thanks for the advice.
They have the same defensive profile, so you're comparing damage out put of the missiles/rockets and the MM/Immoflamer.

Going for Missiles/MM. Missiles get an average of 6 shots vs 4, but the MMs have the Melta bonus on damage.

Ngl though the 1/2 a Pen. Engine is the real appeal.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 04:41:14


Post by: U02dah4


 bullyboy wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
We have a lot of better reserves for that role such as repentia


Small units of repentia would need a transport to be survivable though, nor are they as mobile. 90pts is reasonable for such a unit. Again, not going to be a game winner, but if you have a unit with inferno pistols, probably will do some work.

edit: And just to be clear, I'm only stating this for someone who may have limited models and has already modeled 2 seraphim with infernos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw, Am I crazy in thinking that a preacher with zealot's vindicator and Psalm of Righteous Smiting is a damn good deal for 30pts? It's a hvy flamer character that has 4 attacks in assault at S6, -3Ap and D2, rerolling hits and can fight one additional time at end of the fight phase if still in engagement range.


No he was talking reserves to come on and protect your deployment zone they are safe till t3 and come t3 Seraphim are not much more survivable you also have the option of flinging them from the flanks if more appropriate


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 05:07:01


Post by: Lammia


Becon of Faith is worthwile as a second WL trait for Cp Regen though I expect it to be FAQed away. All you need is a gun with enough range th use each turn.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 07:04:03


Post by: ZergSmasher


Lammia wrote:
Becon of Faith is worthwile as a second WL trait for Cp Regen though I expect it to be FAQed away. All you need is a gun with enough range th use each turn.

That's the problem; Canonesses don't have access to any decent long range firepower. About the best they can do is a Condemnor Boltgun, or maybe that relic Inferno pistol from Our Martyred Lady (even that is only 12" range though).


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 08:19:29


Post by: Lammia


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Becon of Faith is worthwile as a second WL trait for Cp Regen though I expect it to be FAQed away. All you need is a gun with enough range th use each turn.

That's the problem; Canonesses don't have access to any decent long range firepower. About the best they can do is a Condemnor Boltgun, or maybe that relic Inferno pistol from Our Martyred Lady (even that is only 12" range though).
Only need a boltgun if all you are trying too generate MD though...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 12:04:35


Post by: Spoletta


The beacon is a necessity in all SR lists, as is the SR WLT to recycle the bad rolls.

I would also consider the fortification an auto include, if it wasn't impossible to deploy.

Also, while it is true that SR lists tend to be more shooty in nature, you HAVE to include quite a bit of assault elements. You want those MDs out of fight phases. Mortifiers are the best choice for that.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 12:29:31


Post by: ERJAK


I just realized that the Castigator and the Flag duo are so utterly irrelevant to the army from a tactics/list building standpoint that I completely forgot they haven't been released yet.

That's not a great sign for a product if you ask me.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 15:41:26


Post by: bullyboy


Spoletta wrote:
The beacon is a necessity in all SR lists, as is the SR WLT to recycle the bad rolls.

I would also consider the fortification an auto include, if it wasn't impossible to deploy.

Also, while it is true that SR lists tend to be more shooty in nature, you HAVE to include quite a bit of assault elements. You want those MDs out of fight phases. Mortifiers are the best choice for that.


Except the MD is tied to the warlord so i don't see the need foe the SR WT in addition to the Beacon.
I plan just to have my canonness either advance using her WLT if 3 or less or wound with 4+ on her relic brazier. That way I'm just fishing for 4+ Md regen. A ranged weapon is mostly useless for me since I'm taking the relic brazier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote:
I just realized that the Castigator and the Flag duo are so utterly irrelevant to the army from a tactics/list building standpoint that I completely forgot they haven't been released yet.

That's not a great sign for a product if you ask me.


This is true, lol. Really don't care for either two.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 18:41:16


Post by: ghost23


Unless I missed it being mentioned ( apologies if I had missed it), how do we feel about Repressors?

Granted it is legends and as rare as rocking horse leavings to find official kits anymore( and be a decent price if you do), either relying on 3D conversion kits or recasters. Granted a bit more in price to a rhino but more option of firing points. Feels like a good platform for HF rets doing driveby flaming.

Just a thought.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/27 18:46:26


Post by: ERJAK


 ghost23 wrote:
Unless I missed it being mentioned ( apologies if I had missed it), how do we feel about Repressors?

Granted it is legends and as rare as rocking horse leavings to find official kits anymore( and be a decent price if you do), either relying on 3D conversion kits or recasters. Granted a bit more in price to a rhino but more option of firing points. Feels like a good platform for HF rets doing driveby flaming.

Just a thought.


They'd be the best transport in the game if they weren't legends. They are legends though, so they basically don't exist.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:

Okay, I'll bite. Keep in mind I have yet to play a game with the new book so this is all theoryhammer:

That was a good read with a lot of insights, thanks for sharing! I also haven't played Sisters in 9E yet, I had tried monobloody rose in 8th but I think I'll try a different order or stick with a Custom Order for 9th since I never went too heavy with Repentia. I am curious what order do you think would benefit Seraphim the best, I've got them kitted with both handflamers and inferno pistols?


The inferno pistol loadout no longer functions in 9th in 8th there stratagem made it work but with the change in the stratagem it no longer functions


i wouldn't completely agree with this. 20pts for four fusion (edit: inferno...the harlequin coming out in me) shots is not to be discounted. I think using them as a reserve in your own deployment zone for counter attacks vs hvy hitters getting up close. It's still a cheap enough unit. Definitely not worth deep striking them in though.


I use the term "Melta Landmine" for this strat. It's especially good if you use the old tiny seraphim sculpts (still legal, just much easier to LoS.)


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 03:49:31


Post by: ZergSmasher


Continuing my discussion of rating stuff from the new codex, here's my thoughts on the Relics we have access to:

Blade of Saint Ellynor: A Tier: Allows a Canoness to duke it out with some fairly beefy characters (non-Monster ones, anyways). Really nice on a BR Canoness with their warlord trait.

Brazier of Eternal Flame: F Tier: Braziers are already not very good, and this one's effects are incredibly situational (useless unless you happen to be facing Psykers or Daemons).

Wrath of the Emperor: B Tier: Might not be worth a relic slot, but honestly it's something that could give a Canoness or Palatine the ability to cause some pain from a distance (see discussion above about Beacon of Faith and using Miracle Dice often).

Litanies of Faith: C Tier: Helps mitigate rolling those pesky 1's and 2's for your Miracle Dice, but it's only once per battle round and you could still reroll a 1 into another 1...

Mantle of Ophelia: A Tier: Makes a Canoness absurdly tanky vs. big enemies, but be careful because it doesn't do anything about volumes of smaller attacks.

Triptych of the Macharian Crusade: C Tier: Two of the possible bearers already have a 4++, so that part is only relevant on a Dialogus or Hospitaller. +1 Toughness and reducing the first failed save damage to 0 is a neat trick though.

Book of St. Lucius: A Tier: There are plenty of aura abilities that can make good use of a range increase, so this relic is good on a variety of different characters, depending on the needs of your list.

Iron Surplice of Saint Istaela: A Tier: This is probably an even better "tank item" for a Canoness (or potentially any other Sororitas character) than the Mantle. "Transhuman Physiology" effects are always nice, and a 2+ armor save and an extra wound won't do you any harm either.

The Ecclesiarch's Fury: C Tier: Statwise it's a Blessed Blade that costs nothing (since it replaces a Chainsword), but makes you hit less and wound more. In BR I would take Benificence over this for sure.

Redemption: D Tier: Pretending you're Mortarion and hitting everything in between your character and her target is a cute idea, but in practice it's not really worth it and you won't hit that many targets with only 12" range.

The Sigil Ecclesiasticus: B Tier: Having a single Priest able to know and sing an additional Hymn could be pretty nice in some lists. Probably the only way to make a Preacher able to use a Hymn other than War Hymn.

Blessings of Sebastian Thor: D Tier: As mentioned earlier in the thread, it's probably best used with A Sacred Burden to give different Sacred Rites to a melee unit in a mainly shooty list. Otherwise it doesn't seem very good, as it only affects a single character model.

Simulacrum Sanctorum: B Tier: If you want an Imagifier, especially one in a BR list, strongly consider taking this to get both of the good Tales (skip Stoic of course, it's poop).

Chaplet of Sacrifice: C Tier: All of the Stratagems you can get a free use of are 1 CP, and you probably already spent that to get this relic in the first place. Rerolling hits is nice though, as is shooting/fighting on death. Not sure if it's worth taking or not, will need further study.

Martyrs' Vengeance (Our Martyred Lady): B Tier: Functionally, it's a souped-up Meltagun that can be fired in close combat. Could be fairly interesting if used to gank a character or other tough enemy model while hiding behind some Sacresants or something. If I was going to play OoOML, I would strongly consider taking this.

Casket of Penance (Valourous Heart): C Tier: Another "pretend we're Death Guard" item. You have to be standing way too close to the enemy to make this work, so your opponent will likely just kill the bearer to turn it off. The effect is pretty good, especially if your opponent is some flavor of Chaos.

Benificence (Bloody Rose): A Tier: Turn a Canoness into a murderhobo, albeit doing only 1 damage per swing (but potentially up to 12 swings). Best used vs. hordes, but volume of attacks will threaten some larger stuff as well.

Annunciation of the Creed (Ebon Chalice): F Tier: Just a Condemnor Boltgun that does flat 3 mortal wounds to a Psyker instead of d3. Probably not worth a relic slot.

Quicksilver Veil (Argent Shroud): B Tier: Extra movement speed could be handy, and reducing enemy hit chances against the bearer is nice, but I personally like the Mantle or Iron Surplice better as tank items.

Light of Saint Agnaetha (Sacred Rose): A Tier: This is the only reason to ever take a Brazier of Holy Fire. Basically a Flamer that does mortal wounds instead of regular damage, and even better against Daemons.

We've got some good relics, and some bad ones, but nothing that I feel is truly an auto-include. Which relics you choose will really depend on what your list is doing, and often you will want multiples, hence why I rated the "extra relics" Stratagem as S-tier before. Still to come: my ratings on Order Convictions and Warlord Traits.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 04:49:58


Post by: bullyboy


While we're here, can we just mention the utter crap that Tale of the Stoic is? What in the world was GW thinking with this? I love the imagifier model, but since I'm not playing BR I just can't see the need to include it in my lists at all. If it was S4 or less it would be so worth it, but S3?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 04:52:55


Post by: Lammia


 bullyboy wrote:
While we're here, can we just mention the utter crap that Tale of the Stoic is? What in the world was GW thinking with this? I love the imagifier model, but since I'm not playing BR I just can't see the need to include it in my lists at all. If it was S4 or less it would be so worth it, but S3?
We where trying to forget...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 05:02:05


Post by: Bossdoc


I think you might be underrating the Chaplet of Sacrifice. In a Drukhari heavy meta with succubi that kill every character via enoromous numbers of low-damage attacks or by spamming mortal wounds, the protective relics (mantle or surplice) won't increase the survivability of a canoness by much, whereas the chaplet garantees a counterstrike that will probably kill a succubus if paired with blessed blade and e.g. rapturous blows.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 05:59:27


Post by: Spoletta


Lammia wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
While we're here, can we just mention the utter crap that Tale of the Stoic is? What in the world was GW thinking with this? I love the imagifier model, but since I'm not playing BR I just can't see the need to include it in my lists at all. If it was S4 or less it would be so worth it, but S3?
We where trying to forget...


My impression is that it started at S4 and was found to be too strong.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 06:22:32


Post by: ZergSmasher


 bullyboy wrote:
While we're here, can we just mention the utter crap that Tale of the Stoic is? What in the world was GW thinking with this? I love the imagifier model, but since I'm not playing BR I just can't see the need to include it in my lists at all. If it was S4 or less it would be so worth it, but S3?

Tale of the Stoic is a turd sandwich, but for BR the Tale of the Faithful is pretty decent (+1 to advance/charge rolls), and Tale of the Warrior is also handy to have around. So honestly I think the Imagifier is worth it for BR especially. AS can get decent mileage out of Tale of the Faithful as well for getting around the board better.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 06:38:21


Post by: Lammia


 ZergSmasher wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
While we're here, can we just mention the utter crap that Tale of the Stoic is? What in the world was GW thinking with this? I love the imagifier model, but since I'm not playing BR I just can't see the need to include it in my lists at all. If it was S4 or less it would be so worth it, but S3?

Tale of the Stoic is a turd sandwich, but for BR the Tale of the Faithful is pretty decent (+1 to advance/charge rolls), and Tale of the Warrior is also handy to have around. So honestly I think the Imagifier is worth it for BR especially. AS can get decent mileage out of Tale of the Faithful as well for getting around the board better.
Does BR really care for tale of the faithful? I look at it and go "Just take another Repentia Superior or priest


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 07:21:40


Post by: U02dah4


Neither of which help Sacristans get into combat


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 11:14:11


Post by: dammit


 ZergSmasher wrote:

Blade of Saint Ellynor: A Tier: Allows a Canoness to duke it out with some fairly beefy characters (non-Monster ones, anyways). Really nice on a BR Canoness with their warlord trait.


Worth noting that this competes with a regular blessed blade + Rapturous Blows. If a blessing is available for your canonness, I would go that way. 25pts vs 1cp, and you have the option of popping the miraculous ability alongside a squad of repentia/zephyrim to max out the mortal wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
While we're here, can we just mention the utter crap that Tale of the Stoic is? What in the world was GW thinking with this? I love the imagifier model, but since I'm not playing BR I just can't see the need to include it in my lists at all. If it was S4 or less it would be so worth it, but S3?

Tale of the Stoic is a turd sandwich, but for BR the Tale of the Faithful is pretty decent (+1 to advance/charge rolls), and Tale of the Warrior is also handy to have around. So honestly I think the Imagifier is worth it for BR especially. AS can get decent mileage out of Tale of the Faithful as well for getting around the board better.
Does BR really care for tale of the faithful? I look at it and go "Just take another Repentia Superior or priest


Tale of the faithful is actually reroll advance/charge, not +1. That plus a 3d6 drop lowest from the superior is about as solid a charge chance as there is in the game, especially as a way to avoid using miracle dice.

Tale of the warrior pairs with zephyrim nicely as well, but keeping her in range is the issue compared to the repentia slingshot.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 16:12:50


Post by: ERJAK


dammit wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:

Blade of Saint Ellynor: A Tier: Allows a Canoness to duke it out with some fairly beefy characters (non-Monster ones, anyways). Really nice on a BR Canoness with their warlord trait.


Worth noting that this competes with a regular blessed blade + Rapturous Blows. If a blessing is available for your canonness, I would go that way. 25pts vs 1cp, and you have the option of popping the miraculous ability alongside a squad of repentia/zephyrim to max out the mortal wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
While we're here, can we just mention the utter crap that Tale of the Stoic is? What in the world was GW thinking with this? I love the imagifier model, but since I'm not playing BR I just can't see the need to include it in my lists at all. If it was S4 or less it would be so worth it, but S3?

Tale of the Stoic is a turd sandwich, but for BR the Tale of the Faithful is pretty decent (+1 to advance/charge rolls), and Tale of the Warrior is also handy to have around. So honestly I think the Imagifier is worth it for BR especially. AS can get decent mileage out of Tale of the Faithful as well for getting around the board better.
Does BR really care for tale of the faithful? I look at it and go "Just take another Repentia Superior or priest


Tale of the faithful is actually reroll advance/charge, not +1. That plus a 3d6 drop lowest from the superior is about as solid a charge chance as there is in the game, especially as a way to avoid using miracle dice.

Tale of the warrior pairs with zephyrim nicely as well, but keeping her in range is the issue compared to the repentia slingshot.


Repentia slingshot requires the repentia to be on the table for your opponents turn(superior's targeted buff is in the command phase.) It's much less likely to happen than getting Zephyrim in imagifier range.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 16:20:16


Post by: U02dah4


You put the imagifier in Rhino with 9 celestians they exit together its in aura range.

You can only slingshot 1 repentia unit with a repentia superior You can aura 2 or 3 units with an imagifier that have all been rhinoed

It's also not an either or


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 16:42:21


Post by: Pickled_egg


just popping in to congratulate Sisters of Battle players on being able to buy the DLC on your codex soon.

Didn't have to wait long


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 17:04:51


Post by: ZergSmasher


dammit wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:

Blade of Saint Ellynor: A Tier: Allows a Canoness to duke it out with some fairly beefy characters (non-Monster ones, anyways). Really nice on a BR Canoness with their warlord trait.


Worth noting that this competes with a regular blessed blade + Rapturous Blows. If a blessing is available for your canonness, I would go that way. 25pts vs 1cp, and you have the option of popping the miraculous ability alongside a squad of repentia/zephyrim to max out the mortal wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
While we're here, can we just mention the utter crap that Tale of the Stoic is? What in the world was GW thinking with this? I love the imagifier model, but since I'm not playing BR I just can't see the need to include it in my lists at all. If it was S4 or less it would be so worth it, but S3?

Tale of the Stoic is a turd sandwich, but for BR the Tale of the Faithful is pretty decent (+1 to advance/charge rolls), and Tale of the Warrior is also handy to have around. So honestly I think the Imagifier is worth it for BR especially. AS can get decent mileage out of Tale of the Faithful as well for getting around the board better.
Does BR really care for tale of the faithful? I look at it and go "Just take another Repentia Superior or priest


Tale of the faithful is actually reroll advance/charge, not +1. That plus a 3d6 drop lowest from the superior is about as solid a charge chance as there is in the game, especially as a way to avoid using miracle dice.

Tale of the warrior pairs with zephyrim nicely as well, but keeping her in range is the issue compared to the repentia slingshot.

Good call on the Blade of Ellynor; 25 points is sort of steep, but probably worth it especially since you can also take a non-weapon relic that way (like the Iron Surplice). Also, good catch on the Tale of the Faithful. Not sure why I thought it was the other way especially since I had the codex sitting right there and didn't check it.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 17:16:11


Post by: Taikishi


We may want to rethink Ebon Chalice and Penitent Engines. There's a list on the Sisters discord that has been doing well against Dark Eldar running AS + an EC Outrider. The Outrider has three units of 5 Seraphim to take advantage of the MW strat and the EC warlord trait. There's also 6 Penitent Engines taken in units of 3.

If people want to see the list, I'll ask for permission before posting it.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 17:18:51


Post by: Spoletta


Pickled_egg wrote:
just popping in to congratulate Sisters of Battle players on being able to buy the DLC on your codex soon.

Didn't have to wait long


Lol, like I'm going to do that.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 19:49:35


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


ERJAK wrote:
I just realized that the Castigator and the Flag duo are so utterly irrelevant to the army from a tactics/list building standpoint that I completely forgot they haven't been released yet.

That's not a great sign for a product if you ask me.

I'm kind of interested in the flag duo for Crusade and because it's really flavourful to have a war granny in your army, but yeah they're basically superfluous.

 bullyboy wrote:
While we're here, can we just mention the utter crap that Tale of the Stoic is? What in the world was GW thinking with this? I love the imagifier model, but since I'm not playing BR I just can't see the need to include it in my lists at all. If it was S4 or less it would be so worth it, but S3?

Can you imagine spending 50pts on an Imagifier, giving it Tale of the Stoic and thinking you made a good choice?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 20:13:19


Post by: Mmmpi


If I was fighting an IG infantry list it could be useful.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 20:29:20


Post by: alextroy


Tale of the Stoics one saving grace is that you pick your tale at the “Start of the Battle” rather than “before the battle”. Still if you put an Imagifier in your army, you probably had a plan better for it other than “let’s see if the enemy has enough S3 attacks” for it.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 20:43:32


Post by: ERJAK


Spoletta wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
just popping in to congratulate Sisters of Battle players on being able to buy the DLC on your codex soon.

Didn't have to wait long


Lol, like I'm going to do that.

Honestly, it's OoML only and nothing on earth is easier to pirate than supplement rules.

My only fear is that they've got a nerfed datasheet for Morvenn before I even get a chance to use her.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 21:20:12


Post by: Bossdoc


If I was fighting an IG infantry list it could be useful.


Or poison-heavy drukhari...

Edit: wouldn't help against poison because of wording... so only against ig...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 21:45:08


Post by: ZergSmasher


ERJAK wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
just popping in to congratulate Sisters of Battle players on being able to buy the DLC on your codex soon.

Didn't have to wait long


Lol, like I'm going to do that.

Honestly, it's OoML only and nothing on earth is easier to pirate than supplement rules.

My only fear is that they've got a nerfed datasheet for Morvenn before I even get a chance to use her.

Chances are they already have those books printed (around the same time as the actual Sisters codex) and her datasheet will be exactly the same.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 21:57:19


Post by: alextroy


I expect her datasheet won’t be in it at all. It’s not like they put Thypus in the other book.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 21:58:14


Post by: Spoletta


My fear is that the book will have some very good strat for Paragons which will make them competitive, and GW will deem that those suits are fine like that.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 22:08:02


Post by: BrianDavion


ERJAK wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
just popping in to congratulate Sisters of Battle players on being able to buy the DLC on your codex soon.

Didn't have to wait long


Lol, like I'm going to do that.

Honestly, it's OoML only and nothing on earth is easier to pirate than supplement rules.

My only fear is that they've got a nerfed datasheet for Morvenn before I even get a chance to use her.



yeah thats my concern that the rules will all be OoML specific.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 22:44:16


Post by: Taikishi


Here is the list I was talking about. Credit goes to Lanaya/Ashley Thompson in the Sisters Discord server.

I actually watched one of her games in TTS on Sunday. Things looked super-grim after Vahl caused a raider to blow up, dealing mortals to a number of her units while also letting a large unit of Wyches + an Archon disembark, but she managed to pull of the win.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 23:04:04


Post by: ERJAK


Taikishi wrote:
Here is the list I was talking about. Credit goes to Lanaya/Ashley Thompson in the Sisters Discord server.

I actually watched one of her games in TTS on Sunday. Things looked super-grim after Vahl caused a raider to blow up, dealing mortals to a number of her units while also letting a large unit of Wyches + an Archon disembark, but she managed to pull of the win.



The only odd bit for me is the Dogmata, I get she's leaning heavy into the mortal wounds but the extra sacred rite is a weird choice for a second prayer to me. Maybe meant for deny the witch help?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 23:26:28


Post by: Taikishi


Edit because I misread your reply. My bad for reading while doing other things.

The Dogmata is definitely for extra mortals and handing, allowing the Seraphim to shoot and still perform actions, and giving the Sacresants Ob Sec. I'm not entirely sure what she uses the Rite prayer on, but I imagine it's very match-up and situation dependent. Like giving the Seraphim the Passion if she decides to charge with them? I can ask if you'd like


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 23:30:40


Post by: dammit


ERJAK wrote:
Taikishi wrote:
Here is the list I was talking about. Credit goes to Lanaya/Ashley Thompson in the Sisters Discord server.

I actually watched one of her games in TTS on Sunday. Things looked super-grim after Vahl caused a raider to blow up, dealing mortals to a number of her units while also letting a large unit of Wyches + an Archon disembark, but she managed to pull of the win.



The only odd bit for me is the Dogmata, I get she's leaning heavy into the mortal wounds but the extra sacred rite is a weird choice for a second prayer to me. Maybe meant for deny the witch help?


The larger squad of sacresants she's accompanying already have sebastian thor. I think the relic is more about being able to try both war hymn and blazing piety than adding a third rite, and the additional hymn is the only one that makes sense for who's going to be nearby.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 23:33:54


Post by: Taikishi


My comments you quoted still stand, dammit, but I edited my post because I actually misread Erjak's original question. I thought he was talking about the second Rite for her EC pick, not the Rite for her prayer - though War Hymn and Blazing Piety were her most common uses in the TTS game I watched.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/28 23:38:37


Post by: dammit


Yeah that follows, I didn't pick up that Divine was coming from EC.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/29 02:56:59


Post by: ERJAK


Nick Nanavati plays(and wins with) the weirdest most nonsensical SoB lists I can imagine. I need to really take like 4-5 hours and comb through every second of his video because apparently he beat the Deathwatch list that won a GT recently with this monstrosity:

Bloody Rose Patrol

Cannoness- blade of st Elynor, beacon of faith, word of the emperor 100

5 sisters 55

5 retributors- 4 multi meltas 2 cherubs 150
5 retributors- 4 multi meltas 2 cherubs 150

Bloody rose battalion

Cannoness- blessed blade, rapturous blows, righteous rage 85
Palatine- WL indomitable belief, book of st Lucius 45

5 sisters 55
5 sisters 55
5 sisters 55
5 sisters 55
5 sisters 55

5 sacresants- maces 70
5 sacresants- maces 70

Preacher- blazing piety 25
Dogmata- righteous smiting 65
10 repentia 140
2 crusaders 22
Hospitalier 50
Repentia superior 40

5 dominions- 4 storm bolters 80
5 dominions- 4 storm bolters 80
5 seraphim- 4 hand flamers 90

Penitent engine 55
Penitent engine 55
Penitent engine 55

Rhino 80
Rhino 80
Rhino 80

Ignoring his illegal preacher:

How 2nd melee canoness better than Argent Shroud-ing rets? Why extra battle sisters in bloody rose? Hospitaller with no blobs or book? 0 redundancy so if his hammers fail, oh well? Why no Mantle on Rapturous Blows Cannoness?
Incredibly unconventional and either he's playing more than just the preacher rules wrong or he's doing very, very specific things and only those specific things with each unit. Either way, it's worth an in depth look for anyone who has time to watch.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/29 04:02:58


Post by: ZergSmasher


This will be my final roundup of first impressions from the codex. I'll rate all of the Order Convictions (both the main ones and the Minoris ones) as well as all of the Warlord Traits. So here we go one more time:

ORDER CONVICTIONS:

Order of Our Martyred Lady: The Blood Of Martyrs: B Tier: Extra Miracle Dice when your units die is great, especially since it stacks with the one you normally get if a character dies. Getting a hit bonus for a unit that has taken casualties is nice but probably won't come up super often because any savvy opponent will just make sure to polish off said units, especially if there's a Hospitaller nearby ready to res some of the models.

Order of the Valorous Heart: Stoic Endurance: C Tier: 5+++ vs. mortal wounds is okay, but won't always be that useful unless you are facing a lot of psykers or other big mortal wound dealers. The ability to ignore AP-1 and reduce AP-2 is good against a lot of small arms weapons (such as those of the ever-popular Space Marines) as well as mid-level weapons like Autocannons and variants thereof, but it does nothing against some of the meaner stuff like Grav-cannons, Dark Lances, or Meltas.

Order of the Bloody Rose: Quick to Anger: A Tier: Extra attacks in the first round of combat is amazing on our melee units, and is the only thing making certain ones of them relevant (like Repentia). The extra AP is just gravy.

Order of the Ebon Chalice: Daughters of the Emperor: C Tier: Being able to choose 2 Sacred Rites is okay, but usually isn't super necessary. The ability to turn a Miracle Dice into a 6 by burning a second one just seems like a way to burn through an already-scarce resource even faster, although there is something to be said for having a 6 in your pool whenever you need one.

Order of the Argent Shroud: Deeds, Not Words: A Tier: The extra mobility on our shooty units is pretty amazing in an edition that seems to reward good positioning and covering multiple areas of the board. Being able to reroll a hit or wound is also pretty strong and definitely seems to reward MSU builds to maximize how many shots get a reroll.

Order of the Sacred Rose: Devout Serenity: A Tier: Auto-passing Combat Attrition is very good for larger units, as my experiences playing with Dark Angels can attest. The extra Miracle Dice thing is pretty sweet too, and should reward a good all-around build with both melee and shooting units.

MINORIS CONVICTIONS:

Shield of Aversion: C Tier: It's a gimped version of the second half of Valorous Heart. Could be useful for a purely defensive list, I suppose. I would just take Valorous Heart if that was what I wanted though.

Hallowed Martyrs: B Tier: Second half of the Martyred Lady conviction. If you aren't worried about taking Junith or getting Miracle Dice whenever you lose units, this could be good. Could pair well with any of the weapon boosting convictions.

Conviction of Faith: C Tier: Rerolling 1's is okay for Miracle Dice, but honestly 1's can be useful if you need to auto-pass a key Morale test or something. It would be better if you could just flat reroll it, but as it is I think there are better picks for convictions.

Devout Fanaticism: A Tier: +1 to hit in the first round of combat is really strong and could make this a decent alternative to "just take Bloody Rose" if you wanted to run some melee stuff. Pity GW headed us off at the pass on pairing this with Holy Wrath though.

Guided By The Emperor's Will: A Tier: This is just the reroll part of Argent Shroud. It's strong, and gives an alternative to Argent Shroud if you aren't worried about the move and shoot as if you stood still thing.

Holy Wrath: B Tier: This is a good thing to have, especially if you like Sacresants with the maces, but generally if I wanted the extra AP on melee I would just take Bloody Rose, especially since you can't pair this with Devout Fanaticism.

In The Footsteps Of Saints: F Tier: Why would you ever take this? You get one of the main order convictions and gain access to that Order's stratagem and warlord trait, but you lose out on access to their relic. I guess if you're just doing it for the fluff and don't care about the relic anyway, go nuts?

Perfervid Belief: C Tier: Second half of Ebon Chalice. Ironically I think it would be better than straight-up taking Ebon Chalice if you could also get the EC warlord trait since you could pair it with something more useful than getting to pick 2 sacred rites. As is, maybe it's good? Not sure what I'd pair it with honestly.

Purifying Recitations: D Tier: It's a good effect to have army-wide, but it'll be absolutely useless against any army that doesn't have psykers (i.e. most competitive lists that aren't Chaos or Aeldari), meaning it's really too situational to take over other things.

Raging Fervour: A Tier: Melta weapons are really strong right now, and this just straight-up makes them better. I can see this one getting picked a lot if people don't take one of the main Orders.

Rites Of Fire: B Tier: If you want to spam flamer weapons, this is the conviction for you. Obviously it's good on Retributors, but even BSS with regular or heavy flamers can get good mileage out of this, and it also boosts Hand Flamer Seraphim. Pity Mortifiers don't have the ORDER keyword, or it would be crazy good on those. If we see more horde armies start to enter the meta (and with Orks coming soon that's a possibility), this one could see a lot of play.

Righteous Suffering: D Tier: Basically worse Transhuman Physiology, and basically worthless on anything that isn't infantry. It's only a 20% increase in survivability (5/6 chance to wound becomes 4/6 chance with S6+ weapons), and useless against any weapon or attack with less than Strength 6.

Slayers of Heretics: C Tier: This one allows us to be "headhunters" and hit characters easier. Probably not worth it since we don't have any way to really snipe a character and most opponents will be protecting their characters. I rate it C tier because there are some characters (like Ghazzy, The Silent King, etc.) that don't hide and will actually come out to play, so it's definitely not useless. Actually could be interesting for us in the mirror match.

Unbridled Valour: F Tier: Similar to half of the Sacred Rose conviction. We can basically ignore CA tests until we hit half strength or less. I don't think this is worth it. Just play Sacred Rose instead and ignore all CA tests.

Unshakable Vengeance: D Tier: Only edge case I can see for this would be running Heavy Bolter Retributors, as it would be nice to move and ignore the penalty. For the most part, bolt weapons are too weak to worry about ignoring modifiers, especially since in 9th it can never be worse than -1.

Witch Hunters: F Tier: Only good against Psykers, and only good in the Fight phase. Way too situational to ever seriously consider taking in a TAC list.

Personally my gut feeling is that most players are going to pick one of the major Orders, and rarely if ever take the Minoris ones. I've been trying to figure out any super strong combos for the Minoris ones myself, but so far I can't really come up with anything that is better than the regular ones. I'd love to hear thoughts and have a discussion on this topic though; perhaps someone else has spotted something I missed.

And now, Warlord Traits:

Inspiring Orator: C Tier: Extra range on Hymns and other Command Phase abilities is nifty, but really not necessary if you position your character correctly. Probably not worth a Trait slot. Junith Eruita has this trait.

Righteous Rage: A Tier: This is an amazing trait for a beatstick character; easily the best melee-oriented trait. Morvenn Vahl has this and she has to be your Warlord if taken, which is part of why she's so good.

Executioner of Heretics: F Tier: Leadership tricks are only good if you can really stack them, and Sisters can't. Hard pass. Ephrael Stern has this one (so never make her the Warlord, ever).

Beacon of Faith: C Tier: Good in a Sacred Rose list (where you want as many Miracle dice as possible for the trait), kind of meh otherwise. I guess if you were doing the Act of Faith secondary it would be good there too. Aestred Thurga has this one if she is your Warlord.

Indomitable Belief: A Tier: +1 to Shield of Faith saves is a big deal. Combos ridiculously well with the Book of Saint Lucius relic to provide a big bubble for the effect. Celestine has this trait.

Pure of Will: D Tier: Extra DtW attempt and +3 to the DtW roll is only useful if facing psykers, so it's a bit situational, albeit good in the right situation. Would be a good flex pick but GW has decided in the rules that we can't flex our traits and relics from game to game. Pity. The Triumph has this trait.

Shield Bearer (Martyred Lady): B Tier: Good on a character that wants to mix it up with the enemy, as it can help protect her and generate some automatic 6's on your Miracle dice.

Impervious To Pain (Valorous Heart): C Tier: Regaining wounds and having a 5+ FnP is nice, but how often are you going to perform an Act of Faith with your character?

Blazing Ire (Bloody Rose): A Tier: Second-best melee trait after Righteous Rage. Really good on a murder Canoness with Rapturous Blows or Benificence.

Terrible Knowledge (Ebon Chalice): A Tier: This is probably the best thing about Ebon Chalice and the main thing that might make some players take at least a small EC detachment in their lists.

Selfless Heroism (Argent Shroud): B Tier: Bigger Heroic Intervention range and Fights First is a good combination, so it could be a good pick for a fighty character.

Light Of The Divine (Sacred Rose): A Tier: Turning a Miracle dice into a 6 for your Warlord is already good, but combining that with the ability to have CORE units be able to fall back and shoot is what really makes it good. This is part of why I think Sacred Rose is a mainly shooty order.

Most of our warlord traits are at least okay, and there are definitely some truly great ones. Having done all of these first look reviews of the book has convinced me that overall Sisters are in a pretty good place. It'll be interesting to see how some of the top players build their lists, and I look forward to hearing some after-action reports in this thread from any of you that get games in.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/29 04:41:49


Post by: alextroy


ERJAK wrote:
Nick Nanavati plays(and wins with) the weirdest most nonsensical SoB lists I can imagine. I need to really take like 4-5 hours and comb through every second of his video because apparently he beat the Deathwatch list that won a GT recently with this monstrosity:

Spoiler:
Bloody Rose Patrol

Cannoness- blade of st Elynor, beacon of faith, word of the emperor 100

5 sisters 55

5 retributors- 4 multi meltas 2 cherubs 150
5 retributors- 4 multi meltas 2 cherubs 150

Bloody rose battalion

Cannoness- blessed blade, rapturous blows, righteous rage 85
Palatine- WL indomitable belief, book of st Lucius 45

5 sisters 55
5 sisters 55
5 sisters 55
5 sisters 55
5 sisters 55

5 sacresants- maces 70
5 sacresants- maces 70

Preacher- blazing piety 25
Dogmata- righteous smiting 65
10 repentia 140
2 crusaders 22
Hospitalier 50
Repentia superior 40

5 dominions- 4 storm bolters 80
5 dominions- 4 storm bolters 80
5 seraphim- 4 hand flamers 90

Penitent engine 55
Penitent engine 55
Penitent engine 55

Rhino 80
Rhino 80
Rhino 80

Ignoring his illegal preacher:

How 2nd melee canoness better than Argent Shroud-ing rets? Why extra battle sisters in bloody rose? Hospitaller with no blobs or book? 0 redundancy so if his hammers fail, oh well? Why no Mantle on Rapturous Blows Cannoness?
Incredibly unconventional and either he's playing more than just the preacher rules wrong or he's doing very, very specific things and only those specific things with each unit. Either way, it's worth an in depth look for anyone who has time to watch.
That is one weird list. But why is the Preacher illegal? He has 5 Elite units in the detachment since the Repentia Superior is slot-free due to the Repentia.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/29 04:50:02


Post by: ZergSmasher


 alextroy wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Nick Nanavati plays(and wins with) the weirdest most nonsensical SoB lists I can imagine. I need to really take like 4-5 hours and comb through every second of his video because apparently he beat the Deathwatch list that won a GT recently with this monstrosity:

Spoiler:
Bloody Rose Patrol

Cannoness- blade of st Elynor, beacon of faith, word of the emperor 100

5 sisters 55

5 retributors- 4 multi meltas 2 cherubs 150
5 retributors- 4 multi meltas 2 cherubs 150

Bloody rose battalion

Cannoness- blessed blade, rapturous blows, righteous rage 85
Palatine- WL indomitable belief, book of st Lucius 45

5 sisters 55
5 sisters 55
5 sisters 55
5 sisters 55
5 sisters 55

5 sacresants- maces 70
5 sacresants- maces 70

Preacher- blazing piety 25
Dogmata- righteous smiting 65
10 repentia 140
2 crusaders 22
Hospitalier 50
Repentia superior 40

5 dominions- 4 storm bolters 80
5 dominions- 4 storm bolters 80
5 seraphim- 4 hand flamers 90

Penitent engine 55
Penitent engine 55
Penitent engine 55

Rhino 80
Rhino 80
Rhino 80

Ignoring his illegal preacher:

How 2nd melee canoness better than Argent Shroud-ing rets? Why extra battle sisters in bloody rose? Hospitaller with no blobs or book? 0 redundancy so if his hammers fail, oh well? Why no Mantle on Rapturous Blows Cannoness?
Incredibly unconventional and either he's playing more than just the preacher rules wrong or he's doing very, very specific things and only those specific things with each unit. Either way, it's worth an in depth look for anyone who has time to watch.
That is one weird list. But why is the Preacher illegal? He has 5 Elite units in the detachment since the Repentia Superior is slot-free due to the Repentia.

It's illegal because a Preacher only knows War Hymn. Mr. Nanavati's Preacher apparently has Blazing Piety, which is prohibited in the rules.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/29 05:37:00


Post by: Lammia


I mean, a Relic can give it one...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus BSS give cheap board control or can have Palatine auras.

Melee Canoness' are amazing especially in a patrol you don't really care about and in BR


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/29 06:09:50


Post by: U02dah4


Yes the relic allows it to choose from 1, 2, or 3.

It has the keywords to do so but the datasheet does not allow it to pick an extra normally


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/29 06:13:33


Post by: Lammia


The 3rd WL is odd though...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/29 17:48:58


Post by: The Red Hobbit


 ZergSmasher wrote:
This will be my final roundup of first impressions from the codex. I'll rate all of the Order Convictions (both the main ones and the Minoris ones) as well as all of the Warlord Traits. So here we go one more time:

MINORIS CONVICTIONS:

Devout Fanaticism: A Tier: +1 to hit in the first round of combat is really strong and could make this a decent alternative to "just take Bloody Rose" if you wanted to run some melee stuff. Pity GW headed us off at the pass on pairing this with Holy Wrath though.


If one were to run a beatstick HQs like Celestine & Melee Cannoness or perhaps Ephrael Stern along with a decent mix of melee and shooting what would you recommend pairing with Devout Fanaticism?

Also dumb question, Rites of Fire wouldn't affect Celestine's flamer sword right?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/29 18:09:45


Post by: Taikishi


It does not. It's only models with that Order Conviction.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/29 20:50:06


Post by: Us3Less


Is Nick's video behind a paywall or free to view? If the latter, I'd appreciate a link. Didn't find anything myself after a brief search.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/30 05:15:40


Post by: ZergSmasher


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
This will be my final roundup of first impressions from the codex. I'll rate all of the Order Convictions (both the main ones and the Minoris ones) as well as all of the Warlord Traits. So here we go one more time:

MINORIS CONVICTIONS:

Devout Fanaticism: A Tier: +1 to hit in the first round of combat is really strong and could make this a decent alternative to "just take Bloody Rose" if you wanted to run some melee stuff. Pity GW headed us off at the pass on pairing this with Holy Wrath though.


If one were to run a beatstick HQs like Celestine & Melee Cannoness or perhaps Ephrael Stern along with a decent mix of melee and shooting what would you recommend pairing with Devout Fanaticism?

Also dumb question, Rites of Fire wouldn't affect Celestine's flamer sword right?

To answer the first question, the second conviction would depend on what kind of shooting you wanted. If you were going heavy on Meltas, you would want Raging Fervour. If you wanted lots of flamer weapons, take Rites of Fire. If you were going MSU with meltas, sort of like how Argent Shroud plays, you would want Guided by the Emperor's Will.

As for the second question, Taikishi already gave the correct answer. Celestine does not have the ORDER keyword and would not benefit from Rites of Fire.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/30 15:14:37


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Gotcha, thanks for the help!


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/06/30 15:40:08


Post by: ERJAK


Us3Less wrote:
Is Nick's video behind a paywall or free to view? If the latter, I'd appreciate a link. Didn't find anything myself after a brief search.


Free, link is here https://youtu.be/U8TYev9FfcQ.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/01 04:12:45


Post by: ZergSmasher


This just in! Sisters take first place at the RAGE GT: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-age-of-the-machine/

It's an interesting Sisters list, and the guy wasn't even using Morvenn Vahl (so I guess she may not be an auto-take even if she is pretty strong). Not really surprised that Argent Shroud and Bloody Rose made up the components of that list, as they do seem like the strongest Orders. Although seeing other lists in that article, particularly the AdMech ones, makes me think that Valorous Heart could be a decent meta pick now (since it ignores AP-1, a staple of Skitarii shooting). Perhaps not though, as our units will still drown under the sheer weight of dice the cogheads can throw out. That book is probably even more broken than Drukhari was!


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/01 06:25:03


Post by: Lammia


Is it interesting? Looks like more of the same to me. Sure some units have changed to their best selves(looking @ you, Celestians), but how the list plays out is still pretty much the same and I expect we'll end up with similar optimised lists for this Codex that we had with the last book.

The difference will be, we won't have the not-optimised-but-not-objectively-bad range of lists we had before.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/01 06:54:11


Post by: ZergSmasher


Lammia wrote:
Is it interesting? Looks like more of the same to me. Sure some units have changed to their best selves(looking @ you, Celestians), but how the list plays out is still pretty much the same and I expect we'll end up with similar optimised lists for this Codex that we had with the last book.

The difference will be, we won't have the not-optimised-but-not-objectively-bad range of lists we had before.

Interesting to me in that there was no Morvenn Vahl, not one but TWO of the Blessings were taken (and neither of those were Rapturous Blows), and there was only one unit of Retributors (I figured a lot of players would bring two such units in an AS detachment). Honestly I'm happy that Sisters are indeed still strong as I had hoped they were. And I'm also happy that the builds don't have to be super spammy like running 3 big units of repentia or 3 Retributor squads. We've got a lot of viable options now, and that is a very good thing.

On a side note, the more I think about Paragon Warsuits, the less I like them as a unit. I absolutely love the models and have no regrets about picking up a set of them, but where before I was comparing them to Space Marine Terminators, I think they actually compare more closely to Centurion Devastators, and those are not exactly good right now. Paragons are better in an apples-to-apples comparison with DevCents (slightly cheaper, damage reduction, better melee, CORE keyword), but they are strictly worse than their melee counterparts, Assault Centurions, and even those are only good in certain gimmick lists (White Scars, Raven Guard), which Sisters have no real analogs for.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/01 07:13:50


Post by: Lammia


Perhaps.

I always saw Mortifiers as our biggest spammy unit and this list continued that trend. I also didn't expect Vahl to make it in this list, so wasn't surprised by her not being there.

I love Paragon Warsuits, just not their stats/rules. They aren't durable enough(especially in a t5 ork world that's coming) for a model that makes a good target for everything.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/01 18:19:05


Post by: bullyboy


 ZergSmasher wrote:
This just in! Sisters take first place at the RAGE GT: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-age-of-the-machine/

It's an interesting Sisters list, and the guy wasn't even using Morvenn Vahl (so I guess she may not be an auto-take even if she is pretty strong). Not really surprised that Argent Shroud and Bloody Rose made up the components of that list, as they do seem like the strongest Orders. Although seeing other lists in that article, particularly the AdMech ones, makes me think that Valorous Heart could be a decent meta pick now (since it ignores AP-1, a staple of Skitarii shooting). Perhaps not though, as our units will still drown under the sheer weight of dice the cogheads can throw out. That book is probably even more broken than Drukhari was!


Looking at the list of winners, it's honestly quite a nice mix of armies. You have marines still able to compete and with chapters such as Deathwatch and Emperor's spears. An Aeldari get's in (but like Sean N, Daniel O just knows how to run Aeldari really well), Guard, necrons, sisters, chaos, all alongside the new Admech and Drukhari.

Will read in more detail later.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/01 19:50:44


Post by: Amishprn86


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Is it interesting? Looks like more of the same to me. Sure some units have changed to their best selves(looking @ you, Celestians), but how the list plays out is still pretty much the same and I expect we'll end up with similar optimised lists for this Codex that we had with the last book.

The difference will be, we won't have the not-optimised-but-not-objectively-bad range of lists we had before.

Interesting to me in that there was no Morvenn Vahl, not one but TWO of the Blessings were taken (and neither of those were Rapturous Blows), and there was only one unit of Retributors (I figured a lot of players would bring two such units in an AS detachment). Honestly I'm happy that Sisters are indeed still strong as I had hoped they were. And I'm also happy that the builds don't have to be super spammy like running 3 big units of repentia or 3 Retributor squads. We've got a lot of viable options now, and that is a very good thing.

On a side note, the more I think about Paragon Warsuits, the less I like them as a unit. I absolutely love the models and have no regrets about picking up a set of them, but where before I was comparing them to Space Marine Terminators, I think they actually compare more closely to Centurion Devastators, and those are not exactly good right now. Paragons are better in an apples-to-apples comparison with DevCents (slightly cheaper, damage reduction, better melee, CORE keyword), but they are strictly worse than their melee counterparts, Assault Centurions, and even those are only good in certain gimmick lists (White Scars, Raven Guard), which Sisters have no real analogs for.


Non of my lists has her in it yet honestly, with AR MSU and BR don't really need her, she is a power house for sure but unless you are doing the 20 blob and 10 Sacresants or 10 Zephs don't really need her.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/01 21:26:16


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


 ZergSmasher wrote:
This just in! Sisters take first place at the RAGE GT: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-age-of-the-machine/

It's an interesting Sisters list, and the guy wasn't even using Morvenn Vahl (so I guess she may not be an auto-take even if she is pretty strong). Not really surprised that Argent Shroud and Bloody Rose made up the components of that list, as they do seem like the strongest Orders. Although seeing other lists in that article, particularly the AdMech ones, makes me think that Valorous Heart could be a decent meta pick now (since it ignores AP-1, a staple of Skitarii shooting). Perhaps not though, as our units will still drown under the sheer weight of dice the cogheads can throw out. That book is probably even more broken than Drukhari was!

Interesting to see the Seraphim had a spot in this list after all the doom and gloom they've been getting in this thread. IMHO they're not nearly as bad as people are claiming, I'm looking forward to using them when I can finally get a game in.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/01 22:03:04


Post by: Us3Less


After having played two games with them, I can say that I've really like hand flamer seraphim. The strength increase to S4 makes a big difference to how potent their output is. With the Ebon Chalice stratagem and Divine Guidance sacred rite they become even better. They've easily made their points back in the turn they showed up on the table in both games.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/01 22:06:10


Post by: The Red Hobbit


That's good to hear, Seraphim are my favorite unit conceptually so I'm glad to hear the hand-flamer versions are still working out in your games.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/02 01:00:44


Post by: Amishprn86


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
This just in! Sisters take first place at the RAGE GT: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-age-of-the-machine/

It's an interesting Sisters list, and the guy wasn't even using Morvenn Vahl (so I guess she may not be an auto-take even if she is pretty strong). Not really surprised that Argent Shroud and Bloody Rose made up the components of that list, as they do seem like the strongest Orders. Although seeing other lists in that article, particularly the AdMech ones, makes me think that Valorous Heart could be a decent meta pick now (since it ignores AP-1, a staple of Skitarii shooting). Perhaps not though, as our units will still drown under the sheer weight of dice the cogheads can throw out. That book is probably even more broken than Drukhari was!

Interesting to see the Seraphim had a spot in this list after all the doom and gloom they've been getting in this thread. IMHO they're not nearly as bad as people are claiming, I'm looking forward to using them when I can finally get a game in.


The flamers are good thats why, there is a stratagem to get max shots on them can shoot when comes down, etc...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/02 05:06:46


Post by: Lammia


 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
This just in! Sisters take first place at the RAGE GT: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-age-of-the-machine/

It's an interesting Sisters list, and the guy wasn't even using Morvenn Vahl (so I guess she may not be an auto-take even if she is pretty strong). Not really surprised that Argent Shroud and Bloody Rose made up the components of that list, as they do seem like the strongest Orders. Although seeing other lists in that article, particularly the AdMech ones, makes me think that Valorous Heart could be a decent meta pick now (since it ignores AP-1, a staple of Skitarii shooting). Perhaps not though, as our units will still drown under the sheer weight of dice the cogheads can throw out. That book is probably even more broken than Drukhari was!

Interesting to see the Seraphim had a spot in this list after all the doom and gloom they've been getting in this thread. IMHO they're not nearly as bad as people are claiming, I'm looking forward to using them when I can finally get a game in.


The flamers are good thats why, there is a stratagem to get max shots on them can shoot when comes down, etc...
That's very CP intensive if you use all that though. I've mostly been using them to contest the gaps in the board rather than pure damage dealers, and I think that's part of what makes them work.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/02 06:11:37


Post by: ZergSmasher


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
This just in! Sisters take first place at the RAGE GT: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-age-of-the-machine/

It's an interesting Sisters list, and the guy wasn't even using Morvenn Vahl (so I guess she may not be an auto-take even if she is pretty strong). Not really surprised that Argent Shroud and Bloody Rose made up the components of that list, as they do seem like the strongest Orders. Although seeing other lists in that article, particularly the AdMech ones, makes me think that Valorous Heart could be a decent meta pick now (since it ignores AP-1, a staple of Skitarii shooting). Perhaps not though, as our units will still drown under the sheer weight of dice the cogheads can throw out. That book is probably even more broken than Drukhari was!

Interesting to see the Seraphim had a spot in this list after all the doom and gloom they've been getting in this thread. IMHO they're not nearly as bad as people are claiming, I'm looking forward to using them when I can finally get a game in.

I think mainly I'm still salty about the fact that Inferno Pistol Seraphim became useless basically immediately after I got a unit of them all painted up.

In all seriousness, I'm actually rethinking about Seraphim, particularly with the hand flamers. I'm planning on picking up the Sisters combat patrol box whenever it finally drops, and I might just put hand flamers on all of the non-Superior Seraphim (so that I can combine them with the ones from the original box set and make 2 units with 2 hand flamer models in each). Honestly that box is not a bad deal, even for players who did buy the original set. Another Penitent Engine is definitely welcome, and we can all probably use some more basic Battle Sisters. The RoO Canoness is a bit of a miss in this edition, but maybe with some creative cutting and/or arm swapping she could be given more useful wargear. I'll probably be turning the Repentia Superior from the set into yet another Canoness.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/02 12:21:21


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


I got 2 hand flamer Seraphim back in 6th or 7th ed and I'm glad I did, I've always preferred their potential damage output, the range on inferno pistols is just too short to be worthwhile and they don't synergize with the rest of the unit at all. I agree that it is stupid that they made inferno pistols effectively useless on the unit though. About the only way I can see them working is if they come out of reserves or start on the board but I'd probably rather have a squad of Dominions.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/02 12:43:36


Post by: Lammia


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I got 2 hand flamer Seraphim back in 6th or 7th ed and I'm glad I did, I've always preferred their potential damage output, the range on inferno pistols is just too short to be worthwhile and they don't synergize with the rest of the unit at all. I agree that it is stupid that they made inferno pistols effectively useless on the unit though. About the only way I can see them working is if they come out of reserves or start on the board but I'd probably rather have a squad of Dominions.
Fly Inferno pistols up with St C. It's playtest Dex all over again!


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/02 14:27:02


Post by: U02dah4


No its still bad

I mean 150pts of rets get 12 shots

90pts of sepherim get 4 shots

Playtest is not required its very inefficient even if you could do it reliably

A unit of Seraphim. Is fine for objectives and the handflamers arn't terrible but they are too much of a CP draw

I would probably just keep the unit vanilla if I took one


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/02 14:50:03


Post by: Lammia


I think a min squad of Zephyrim in BR is still the better option for objectives. Especally compared to Vanilla Seraphim


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/02 15:54:19


Post by: bullyboy


U02dah4 wrote:
No its still bad

I mean 150pts of rets get 12 shots

90pts of sepherim get 4 shots

Playtest is not required its very inefficient even if you could do it reliably

A unit of Seraphim. Is fine for objectives and the handflamers arn't terrible but they are too much of a CP draw

I would probably just keep the unit vanilla if I took one


You cannot discount the mobility. Rets may not be able to get LOS to target with their movement, but seraphim do have ability to be very mobile. Might be enough to finish a target that is using terrain wisely. If not, additional 20pts on top of a secondary scoring unit is a relatively small cost.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/02 16:07:38


Post by: U02dah4


Rets go into reserve come on from the board edge and have a 24" range that hits 90% of the table and almost anything big that you would want them to target

Dropping onto an objective is fine rets can't do that but vanilla do it more pts efficiently

4 shots just isn't that reliable 2.66 hit 1.55 -1.33 wound and that reduces if there's an invul so assuming the big assumption your within 3" and miracleing a 6 your not popping a Rhino yet alone a good target


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/02 16:08:52


Post by: davidgr33n


I run AS, so a Seraphim unit with 4 Infernos works well for me… T2 they deepstrike in cover and hidden for secondaries, T3 they move 12 and advance (D6” + 1”) close to something, then shoot it with a reroll. Or just use it as a board harassment / denial unit.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/02 16:12:52


Post by: U02dah4


But 22% is a big cost increase and most of that the deepstrike for secondaries the board denial and even some harassment you can accomplish without the pistols


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/06 15:21:24


Post by: Lootloader


I know there's been a good bit of talk about Seraphim being mostly useless now, but I've been having good success with them.

I have 5 from the collector's set, so a plasma pistol and power sword Superior, and 4 bolt pistol seraphim, and I've been starting them on the board. I usually use a hymn from a nearby Dialogus to boost their invuln to a 4+ and then they run to center board to claim an objective (usually the Sacred Shrine for our secondary Defend the Shrine).

With the 4++ and using terrain, I've been pleased by their performance each time, and they attract a good bit of firepower. A very worthwhile unit in my opinion for skirmishing on objectives early game while the rest of your army gets in to position.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/06 17:09:12


Post by: Leth


I cant see how a hyper mobile unit with a flame attack is useless, especially at their points.

Name of the game is scoring secondaries, and seraphim will do that quite well.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/06 17:40:29


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


Lootloader wrote:
I know there's been a good bit of talk about Seraphim being mostly useless now, but I've been having good success with them.

I have 5 from the collector's set, so a plasma pistol and power sword Superior, and 4 bolt pistol seraphim, and I've been starting them on the board. I usually use a hymn from a nearby Dialogus to boost their invuln to a 4+ and then they run to center board to claim an objective (usually the Sacred Shrine for our secondary Defend the Shrine).

With the 4++ and using terrain, I've been pleased by their performance each time, and they attract a good bit of firepower. A very worthwhile unit in my opinion for skirmishing on objectives early game while the rest of your army gets in to position.

It's mostly Inferno Pistol Seraphim that are essentially useless (or at the very least sub-optimal). 70pts for a bare-bones squad, or 90pts for a squad with dual Hand Flamers are a solid unit for the cost IMHO. They mainly suffer from being inessential, after your Canoness, Battle Sisters, Retributors, Repentia, etc you're going to have to free up some points to take them over some other choice.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/06 19:48:21


Post by: bullyboy


U02dah4 wrote:
Rets go into reserve come on from the board edge and have a 24" range that hits 90% of the table and almost anything big that you would want them to target

Dropping onto an objective is fine rets can't do that but vanilla do it more pts efficiently

4 shots just isn't that reliable 2.66 hit 1.55 -1.33 wound and that reduces if there's an invul so assuming the big assumption your within 3" and miracleing a 6 your not popping a Rhino yet alone a good target


Terrain on a table should not allow rets to see the board entirely, so you are restricted there.
I don't expect 4 infernos to kill a healthy target, but finishing off a wounded unit trying to hide is well within their task


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/06 19:53:04


Post by: Lootloader


 bullyboy wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Rets go into reserve come on from the board edge and have a 24" range that hits 90% of the table and almost anything big that you would want them to target

Dropping onto an objective is fine rets can't do that but vanilla do it more pts efficiently

4 shots just isn't that reliable 2.66 hit 1.55 -1.33 wound and that reduces if there's an invul so assuming the big assumption your within 3" and miracleing a 6 your not popping a Rhino yet alone a good target


Terrain on a table should not allow rets to see the board entirely, so you are restricted there.
I don't expect 4 infernos to kill a healthy target, but finishing off a wounded unit trying to hide is well within their task


I think the inferno pistols have a place as well as that starter skirmishing unit. They can run up to a mid-board objective, score some points, and then if the opponent has ignored them, fly in to a weak target and finish them. Conversely if you go second, and your opponent moves to the mid-board objectives, starting off your assault on their units with inferno seraphim is not the worst thing in the world against elite-style armies.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/06 21:26:40


Post by: U02dah4


 bullyboy wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Rets go into reserve come on from the board edge and have a 24" range that hits 90% of the table and almost anything big that you would want them to target

Dropping onto an objective is fine rets can't do that but vanilla do it more pts efficiently

4 shots just isn't that reliable 2.66 hit 1.55 -1.33 wound and that reduces if there's an invul so assuming the big assumption your within 3" and miracleing a 6 your not popping a Rhino yet alone a good target


Terrain on a table should not allow rets to see the board entirely, so you are restricted there.
I don't expect 4 infernos to kill a healthy target, but finishing off a wounded unit trying to hide is well within their task


Most boards including GW terrain examples with rets coming in from both sides you'll get a line to most large targets sure infantry will hide but your not targeting them

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/29/metawatch-warhammer-40000-building-beautiful-balanced-battlefields-for-grand-tournament-play/


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/08 03:22:13


Post by: ZergSmasher


Sisters take the win at the Call to Arms 5-round RTT in New Zealand.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-rumblings-down-under/

Looks like Valorous Heart is still plenty viable despite my misgivings, and the 20-model BSS seems to have worked well. What's interesting to me is that the list has a lot of melee threats; really just as many as in a Bloody Rose list. I could see Sacresants or especially Zephyrim working well even outside of BR, but this list had not one but TWO big units of Repentia in addition to those. Mortifiers and Pengines, of course, don't care about Orders and are therefore good in any list, and we see that borne out here. One thing I really love about the list is the tanky Canoness, with the VH warlord trait, the Mantle of Ophelia, and The Emperor's Grace blessing.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/08 03:53:05


Post by: Lammia


Repentia are fine w/o BR.

BR are just the only order that actually buff them.

*usually runs them in min VH squads in smaller, casual games*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more I think about it, the more I like the big sister blob. It's a terrible waste of points, but I think that's what makes it work.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/08 13:51:05


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


Lammia wrote:
Repentia are fine w/o BR.

BR are just the only order that actually buff them.

*usually runs them in min VH squads in smaller, casual games*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more I think about it, the more I like the big sister blob. It's a terrible waste of points, but I think that's what makes it work.

I like the idea of big sister blobs, 4 special weapons (5 if you slap a combi-weapon on the Superior) is nothing to scoff at, especially if you plan on hitting them with Defenders of the Faith and getting them on a crucial objective. They're also more efficient for stacking buffs on with the amount of real estate they can take up. I feel like they work best with Our Martyred Lady though, because then they can maximize the bonuses for being below starting strength without too much of a hit to their effectiveness. Valorous Heart seem like the 2nd best option for these big blobs though. That said, I'm thinking of running my OoOML Sisters in primarily 10-woman units to be a bit more point- and resource-efficient, with a couple smaller, 5-woman units for sacrificial purposes or backfield objectives.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/08 14:31:09


Post by: Lammia


Damage output with big blob doesn't matter too much. In my mind, you take the big blob and Vahl for 'While we stand, we fight' and 'Defend the Shrine'. Making the other player make the choice of killing good stuff or stopping you score a lot of free secondary points.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/09 14:00:10


Post by: ERJAK


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sisters take the win at the Call to Arms 5-round RTT in New Zealand.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-rumblings-down-under/

Looks like Valorous Heart is still plenty viable despite my misgivings, and the 20-model BSS seems to have worked well. What's interesting to me is that the list has a lot of melee threats; really just as many as in a Bloody Rose list. I could see Sacresants or especially Zephyrim working well even outside of BR, but this list had not one but TWO big units of Repentia in addition to those. Mortifiers and Pengines, of course, don't care about Orders and are therefore good in any list, and we see that borne out here. One thing I really love about the list is the tanky Canoness, with the VH warlord trait, the Mantle of Ophelia, and The Emperor's Grace blessing.


My guess is that those melee options rely on the fact that most of Admech and Drukhari's objective camping options are made out of tissue paper and rely on speed.
Without Bloody Rose, Repentia and Zephyrim both barely scratch anything with a decent save/wound count. He was banking on killing witches and incubi and it appears that he lucked out.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/09 15:12:25


Post by: U02dah4


Without br those repentia are still putting out 27A (with a priest) hitting 75% wounding on 2's vs most things with a repentia superior ap3 d2 that's not light weight (Sure 36 is better but it's mostly overkill) I mean 27 on avg kill 14 intercessors


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/09 17:31:47


Post by: ZergSmasher


ERJAK wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
Sisters take the win at the Call to Arms 5-round RTT in New Zealand.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-rumblings-down-under/

Looks like Valorous Heart is still plenty viable despite my misgivings, and the 20-model BSS seems to have worked well. What's interesting to me is that the list has a lot of melee threats; really just as many as in a Bloody Rose list. I could see Sacresants or especially Zephyrim working well even outside of BR, but this list had not one but TWO big units of Repentia in addition to those. Mortifiers and Pengines, of course, don't care about Orders and are therefore good in any list, and we see that borne out here. One thing I really love about the list is the tanky Canoness, with the VH warlord trait, the Mantle of Ophelia, and The Emperor's Grace blessing.


My guess is that those melee options rely on the fact that most of Admech and Drukhari's objective camping options are made out of tissue paper and rely on speed.
Without Bloody Rose, Repentia and Zephyrim both barely scratch anything with a decent save/wound count. He was banking on killing witches and incubi and it appears that he lucked out.

10 Zephyrim put out 31 attacks, and that's without being Bloody Rose or having a Priest use War Hymn on them. That's kinda good, especially with the Zephyrim-specific strat (that is not order-locked). That's why I think they are a very strong melee unit. Repentia do seem subpar in a non-BR list, but mostly that's down to having too few attacks to kill anything big. War Hymn can at least partially solve that problem as the poster above pointed out (although they are only wounding on 2's against small gribblies), and as he stated they are very mean to Marines (who despite being less powerful than the new hotness armies are still very very popular).


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/09 18:49:25


Post by: Lammia


I mean, a non-BR Repentia Squad with just a Superior doesn't one shot a Knight. But it will wipe anything smaller...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/09 20:14:57


Post by: U02dah4


I'm just thinking of catapulting them into front lines and s6 +1 to wound is 2+ up to t5


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/09 20:30:59


Post by: ERJAK


U02dah4 wrote:
Without br those repentia are still putting out 27A (with a priest) hitting 75% wounding on 2's vs most things with a repentia superior ap3 d2 that's not light weight (Sure 36 is better but it's mostly overkill) I mean 27 on avg kill 14 intercessors


Yes, if you dedicate 65pts and a CP to them, they DO have the ability to be almost as good as baseline bloody rose repentia. I agree.

As for comments on Zephyrim, 31 attacks at S4 is fine for killing witches and blowing 2CP on them will give them a shot against intercessors.

Ultimately VH repentia(which is a thing that makes me throw up in my mouth a little) and VH Zephyrim were as successful as they were because the armies that are meta right now don't require big heavy hitters to kill them (or for the invincible Skittarii brick, still shrug off heavy hitters). For the Zephyrim especially, if you can already kill your targets with their baseline output, using your conviction on bolstering their defense is absolutely the most efficient option.

Just keep in mind that GK and Tsons are coming up soon and those are both armies that traditionally make strong deathstars that may well demand the extra damage.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/09 21:37:01


Post by: Leth


I am still a fan of the Ebon Chalice option. Still being able to guarantee at least 1 6 on the charge when necessary is pretty powerful, especially if you are building around more independent unit operations.

Especially since they get two sacred rites, which can be pretty significant. +1 advance and charge combined with the ability to guarantee a 6 means a minimum of 8 and native reroll from the banner for zephyrim. Add on exploding 6s and I think the combination means they are in a solid place compared to Bloody rose just because of the reliability of making a charge.

Also a guaranteed 6 at the start of the game is really good for the miraculous ability range.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/10 15:56:33


Post by: ERJAK


Has anyone else looked at the new OoML rules? I need to gauge someone else's initial reaction beyond the generally saccharine Goonhammer.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/10 16:10:34


Post by: shabadoit


The new rules are good - makes OoML better without making them an auto take, power wise I think they landed in a really good spot. It could also mean we see more variety in lists as you're encouraged to build really differently with OoML.

The relic blade + WL trait cannoness I think has genuine play - no one will want to go anywhere near her and it's another solid mortal wound option. I don't think she's an auto take, but I think she's worth considering in a lot of lists.
Also, while obviously not as good, it finally gives a smash palatine option, which is fun at least.

Some of the shooting out of turn tools are potentially really interesting, and give a few more ways to get the 3pt turn on the miracle dice secondary, although feel a bit too unreliable to make a strategy around. Sometimes your Retributors will shoot back and murder something, sometimes you'll roll low and feel bad...

All in all it feels a lot like the Sisters book in generally to me - it seems almost underwhelming to be getting well balanced rules at the same time as Admech get even sillier (I with 11 pt battle sisters were as good as 10pt veteran Skitarii...) but once people start playing it I think they'll be happy with where it lands. And Skitarii can't stay so cheap forever right?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/10 16:34:33


Post by: ERJAK


shabadoit wrote:
The new rules are good - makes OoML better without making them an auto take, power wise I think they landed in a really good spot. It could also mean we see more variety in lists as you're encouraged to build really differently with OoML.

The relic blade + WL trait cannoness I think has genuine play - no one will want to go anywhere near her and it's another solid mortal wound option. I don't think she's an auto take, but I think she's worth considering in a lot of lists.
Also, while obviously not as good, it finally gives a smash palatine option, which is fun at least.

Some of the shooting out of turn tools are potentially really interesting, and give a few more ways to get the 3pt turn on the miracle dice secondary, although feel a bit too unreliable to make a strategy around. Sometimes your Retributors will shoot back and murder something, sometimes you'll roll low and feel bad...

All in all it feels a lot like the Sisters book in generally to me - it seems almost underwhelming to be getting well balanced rules at the same time as Admech get even sillier (I with 11 pt battle sisters were as good as 10pt veteran Skitarii...) but once people start playing it I think they'll be happy with where it lands. And Skitarii can't stay so cheap forever right?


See this is interesting and goes to show the different perspectives people can have on the same rules because my initial reaction, which I admit might be in the minority, is that the rules presented for OoML range from 'does nothing' to 'maybe for the memes?'.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/10 16:38:31


Post by: bullyboy


My SR rose has 2x5 Repentia. maybe they will kill something, great if they don't, but dying gives me a nice MD to recycle.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/10 16:53:30


Post by: U02dah4


OoML is probably the best miracle dice generator still but you have to remember the new ooml supplement is out next week and this will likely improve them


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/10 18:23:17


Post by: ZergSmasher


Not sure the new book helps us all that much. Martyred Lady does get slightly better, but there's nothing there that's amazing. And that's a good thing for list variety; we don't need any auto-include stuff because it leads to cookie-cutter armies.

I do like the Imagifier relic though; it makes it so you can pretend you're Bloody Rose for a turn with the extra attacks. Will it be enough to turn Martyred Lady into a melee Order? Definitely not, but powering up your Sacresants/Repentia for a turn can't be a bad thing.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/10 19:05:10


Post by: ERJAK


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Not sure the new book helps us all that much. Martyred Lady does get slightly better, but there's nothing there that's amazing. And that's a good thing for list variety; we don't need any auto-include stuff because it leads to cookie-cutter armies.

I do like the Imagifier relic though; it makes it so you can pretend you're Bloody Rose for a turn with the extra attacks. Will it be enough to turn Martyred Lady into a melee Order? Definitely not, but powering up your Sacresants/Repentia for a turn can't be a bad thing.


The big problem with it is that it makes you take an imagifier in OoML.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/10 19:33:09


Post by: U02dah4


Has the new supplement been spoiled somewhere?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/10 19:49:17


Post by: ZergSmasher


U02dah4 wrote:
Has the new supplement been spoiled somewhere?

Goonhammer has done a review at least of the Imperial stuff in there, and I suspect others have as well.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/11 08:09:37


Post by: Lammia


ERJAK wrote:
shabadoit wrote:
The new rules are good - makes OoML better without making them an auto take, power wise I think they landed in a really good spot. It could also mean we see more variety in lists as you're encouraged to build really differently with OoML.

The relic blade + WL trait cannoness I think has genuine play - no one will want to go anywhere near her and it's another solid mortal wound option. I don't think she's an auto take, but I think she's worth considering in a lot of lists.
Also, while obviously not as good, it finally gives a smash palatine option, which is fun at least.

Some of the shooting out of turn tools are potentially really interesting, and give a few more ways to get the 3pt turn on the miracle dice secondary, although feel a bit too unreliable to make a strategy around. Sometimes your Retributors will shoot back and murder something, sometimes you'll roll low and feel bad...

All in all it feels a lot like the Sisters book in generally to me - it seems almost underwhelming to be getting well balanced rules at the same time as Admech get even sillier (I with 11 pt battle sisters were as good as 10pt veteran Skitarii...) but once people start playing it I think they'll be happy with where it lands. And Skitarii can't stay so cheap forever right?


See this is interesting and goes to show the different perspectives people can have on the same rules because my initial reaction, which I admit might be in the minority, is that the rules presented for OoML range from 'does nothing' to 'maybe for the memes?'.
I think they are solidly in 'maybe for the memes?'

I think VH's undying Canoness is both more powerful and funnier than MW OoOML Canoness. Out of turn attacks look interesting, but I've never felt like I've done anything with it by using it on anything short of an Immolator/Exocist, which are bad.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/11 08:28:34


Post by: shabadoit


I can see why people aren't excited, but I think there is a narrow range for where the rules could land where they have some use without making OoML the best order.

Giving Obsec for 1 CP is a great strat though


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/11 09:02:36


Post by: Lammia


Campaign books *should* be side grades and I think this does that for OoOML. It just doesn't do anything if you weren't already making that choice.

It has casual/Crusade play. Especally of you want to take Junith, but I don't see it ending up on the top tables.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/11 09:20:25


Post by: ERJAK


Lammia wrote:
Campaign books *should* be side grades and I think this does that for OoOML. It just doesn't do anything if you weren't already making that choice.

It has casual/Crusade play. Especally of you want to take Junith, but I don't see it ending up on the top tables.


I kinda think that when the campaign book was written they assumed OoML wouldn't be a bottom 2 order.(You can argue a lot about SR vs OoML but I don't think there are that many people who would seriously contend that either are better than AS, BR, VH, or EC.) So they kept the abilities more conservative than they needed to.

The shoot when dying strat could have been on a 2+, Martyrs Pyre should have been something completely different, they could have pushed a couple of the other relics or warlord traits more (the imagifier relic could have been permanent and it wouldn't have made it OP).

The goal of campaign books is obviously to not let things get OP, but I think they had more headroom with OoML than they thought they did.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/11 13:53:26


Post by: U02dah4


I think ooml seems better now for a mono build than vh with a melee component and extra obsec etc it seems a reasonable jack of all trades but I don't think that defeats a half and half build because BR are so strong

In a half and half build

The undying cannoness vs the mw spammer are a close call I actually think I prefer the mw spammer it really depends what your facing ones a carnifex and one's a threat (for 2 fights maximum till it kills itself,)

But the vh strat is really strong on mm rets while you get less usefull strats for OoM bit there's a lot of them problem is I'm already CP tight

while the armour save and extra miracles seem a bit six of one half a dozen to the other.

I guess it seems really interchangeable to me with a lot depending on how much your opponent is spamming ap1-ap2 (as if its mostly 0 or 3+ ooml seems the better pick)


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/11 17:04:32


Post by: Lammia


U02dah4 wrote:
I think ooml seems better now for a mono build than vh with a melee component and extra obsec etc it seems a reasonable jack of all trades but I don't think that defeats a half and half build because BR are so strong

In a half and half build

The undying cannoness vs the mw spammer are a close call I actually think I prefer the mw spammer it really depends what your facing ones a carnifex and one's a threat (for 2 fights maximum till it kills itself,)

But the vh strat is really strong on mm rets while you get less usefull strats for OoM bit there's a lot of them problem is I'm already CP tight

while the armour save and extra miracles seem a bit six of one half a dozen to the other.

I guess it seems really interchangeable to me with a lot depending on how much your opponent is spamming ap1-ap2 (as if its mostly 0 or 3+ ooml seems the better pick)
MW Canoness can heal too...

The damage output isn't all that different either w/ a blessed blade.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/11 18:22:41


Post by: ERJAK


Lammia wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
I think ooml seems better now for a mono build than vh with a melee component and extra obsec etc it seems a reasonable jack of all trades but I don't think that defeats a half and half build because BR are so strong

In a half and half build

The undying cannoness vs the mw spammer are a close call I actually think I prefer the mw spammer it really depends what your facing ones a carnifex and one's a threat (for 2 fights maximum till it kills itself,)

But the vh strat is really strong on mm rets while you get less usefull strats for OoM bit there's a lot of them problem is I'm already CP tight

while the armour save and extra miracles seem a bit six of one half a dozen to the other.

I guess it seems really interchangeable to me with a lot depending on how much your opponent is spamming ap1-ap2 (as if its mostly 0 or 3+ ooml seems the better pick)
MW Canoness can heal too...

The damage output isn't all that different either w/ a blessed blade.


There are a couple of issues with the MW canoness that I think hold it back from being a contender over something more convential like Immortal Canoness or the Very Bloody Rose Canoness, 1 is that, at 3 wounds max, any counter attack will generally kill her outright. 2 Her damage output is only 'okay' without rerolls to go 6 fishing with. 3. Giving her rerolls requires righteous rage, which requires no Morvenn ( OoML builds generally like Morvenn) or Morvenn has to giver her her buff which denies it to other things. 4. Celestine and Stern both function in very similar ways but are more efficient (especially DEFENSIVELY).

I think in a Mono-OoML list she's going to be a high risk, high reward missile paired with either Rapturous Blows or Word of the Emperor, that will ride a rhino with Sacresants or Dominions, pop out, target down something more expensive than her, and immediately die and give you 2 miracle dice.

In multi-Order lists she's WAY too much of a meme to be better than a VH or BR Canoness.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/11 21:50:52


Post by: Lanlaorn


I I recall correctly, when using the new relic sword every successful wound roll causes mortal wounds, not just 6's.

Rerolls would be nice but if that's correct then even just base WL trait + Relic Canoness channeling 2 wounds into the blade will be 6 attacks hitting on 2's at S6 every wound is 2 MW and that makes her crazy.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/11 22:59:31


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


Lanlaorn wrote:
I I recall correctly, when using the new relic sword every successful wound roll causes mortal wounds, not just 6's.

Rerolls would be nice but if that's correct then even just base WL trait + Relic Canoness channeling 2 wounds into the blade will be 6 attacks hitting on 2's at S6 every wound is 2 MW and that makes her crazy.

This appears to be true based on Goonhammer's report. If so, she can be a tactical nuke for you in one turn, maybe more if you have some Hospitaller support.

Also, for the Imagifier banner, that +1A would stack with War Hymns and any other attack buffs, eh? Could be some effective shenanigans that you could craft that way.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/12 00:22:38


Post by: Lanlaorn


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Lanlaorn wrote:
I I recall correctly, when using the new relic sword every successful wound roll causes mortal wounds, not just 6's.

Rerolls would be nice but if that's correct then even just base WL trait + Relic Canoness channeling 2 wounds into the blade will be 6 attacks hitting on 2's at S6 every wound is 2 MW and that makes her crazy.

This appears to be true based on Goonhammer's report. If so, she can be a tactical nuke for you in one turn, maybe more if you have some Hospitaller support.

Also, for the Imagifier banner, that +1A would stack with War Hymns and any other attack buffs, eh? Could be some effective shenanigans that you could craft that way.


Yea, it's decent, although a Bloody Rose Canoness swinging an AP -4 sword with the "You can't use invulns" Blessing active is basically the same thing as mortal wounds and just gets better with relics and WL traits.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/12 08:53:45


Post by: U02dah4


Again half and half take both


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/16 15:09:20


Post by: alextroy


Super short FAQ fixes the three errors we all knew it would:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/qZO9JfHAHPaC3lbF.pdf


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/16 17:00:33


Post by: Lammia


It didn't even add the /model to the MM...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/17 08:18:14


Post by: ERJAK




How utterly useless in a book that had multiple real questions.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/17 12:56:52


Post by: U02dah4


Like what?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/17 16:18:13


Post by: Lammia


How many Cherubs a Ret squad in a turn?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/17 19:08:32


Post by: ERJAK


Lammia wrote:
How many Cherubs a Ret squad in a turn?


There's also a weird thing with Cherub dice vs Faith dice and how they work in non-sororitas armies and also some very specific readings of the cherub dice/AOF interation that imply you can use cherub dice without counting as using your AoF that turn.

There are also some people who still claim argent shroud don't get to move and advance and shoot with no penalty out of transports, but that's mostly because almost every tournament player does disembark wrong.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/17 21:11:01


Post by: U02dah4


Well the ret squad thing 2 is raw

I get that some people fath with it and confirmation would be nice but even goonhammer have changed their tune and there seems concensus amongst the TOs in this area at least.

As to the second

Models with the AoF rule don't generate miracle dice even from a non standard source if your not a wholey soritas army however they can still carry out acts of faith if they had access to them some way.

This can be done In 2 ways

1) use a battle sanctum which does not have the AoF rule so is not subject to its limitation (the Aof rule is not army wide its unit specific. [but in practice noone can place on a real board as its too big for gw terrain rules)]

2) use cherub dice as their not miracle dice their cherub dice.

When you use a cherub dice to perform an a
AoF it counts as useing a miracle dice and therefore counts as your AoF that turn because nothing says it doesn't. That's the raw anything else is wilfully misleading and I've never heard anyone raise it.

I don't see the need for clarification here

The only thing that would be nice was if they cleaned up taddeus or got rid of him like daedalosus


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/18 19:34:12


Post by: ERJAK


U02dah4 wrote:
Well the ret squad thing 2 is raw

I get that some people fath with it and confirmation would be nice but even goonhammer have changed their tune and there seems concensus amongst the TOs in this area at least.

As to the second

Models with the AoF rule don't generate miracle dice even from a non standard source if your not a wholey soritas army however they can still carry out acts of faith if they had access to them some way.

This can be done In 2 ways

1) use a battle sanctum which does not have the AoF rule so is not subject to its limitation (the Aof rule is not army wide its unit specific. [but in practice noone can place on a real board as its too big for gw terrain rules)]

2) use cherub dice as their not miracle dice their cherub dice.

When you use a cherub dice to perform an a
AoF it counts as useing a miracle dice and therefore counts as your AoF that turn because nothing says it doesn't. That's the raw anything else is wilfully misleading and I've never heard anyone raise it.

I don't see the need for clarification here

The only thing that would be nice was if they cleaned up taddeus or got rid of him like daedalosus


Thank you for rehashing the exact same discussion points that have already been brought up in every version of this discussion. It's just as useless as they've been up to this point, but hey; At least you put in the effort.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/19 20:49:16


Post by: Archebius


ERJAK wrote:
Thank you for rehashing the exact same discussion points that have already been brought up in every version of this discussion. It's just as useless as they've been up to this point, but hey; At least you put in the effort.

Rude. We didn't get these questions answered in the FAQ, he offered an interpretation. As far as I can find it hasn't been discussed here yet, which makes it useful conversation in a tactics thread.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/20 15:55:53


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


Archebius wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Thank you for rehashing the exact same discussion points that have already been brought up in every version of this discussion. It's just as useless as they've been up to this point, but hey; At least you put in the effort.

Rude. We didn't get these questions answered in the FAQ, he offered an interpretation. As far as I can find it hasn't been discussed here yet, which makes it useful conversation in a tactics thread.

That's just ERJAK for you.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/25 17:53:05


Post by: alextroy


Our missing AS models go on preorder on Saturday 7/31. Probably not a big deal since they are not very good in the competitive sphere. Still, they will make good painting projects.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/26 04:07:13


Post by: ZergSmasher


Our tanks really feel bad after seeing how absurdly good the Ork vehicles are for their price point. Especially that Kill Rig.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/26 15:44:26


Post by: Captain Joystick


Lammia wrote:
It didn't even add the /model to the MM...


On the points page?

Is that a point of contention for some people?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/26 15:46:15


Post by: deviantduck


ERJAK wrote:
There are also some people who still claim argent shroud don't get to move and advance and shoot with no penalty out of transports, but that's mostly because almost every tournament player does disembark wrong.
How are people disembarking wrong in tourneys?


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/26 17:06:46


Post by: Lammia


 Captain Joystick wrote:
Lammia wrote:
It didn't even add the /model to the MM...


On the points page?

Is that a point of contention for some people?
No. It's just my guess as to what caused the mistake in the first place...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/26 18:30:46


Post by: ERJAK


 deviantduck wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
There are also some people who still claim argent shroud don't get to move and advance and shoot with no penalty out of transports, but that's mostly because almost every tournament player does disembark wrong.
How are people disembarking wrong in tourneys?


When you disembark you get out 3" and then move 6". Most people just jump out 9" and as a result people think that a 'disembark' move is a thing.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/27 00:00:56


Post by: BrianDavion


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Our tanks really feel bad after seeing how absurdly good the Ork vehicles are for their price point. Especially that Kill Rig.


it seems there's a "rhino hull tax"


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/27 18:07:19


Post by: davidgr33n


Yea and they don’t even get Self Repair anymore


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/29 19:56:35


Post by: leerm02


Hey there folks!

So, as I am one of those poor masochistic fools who try to have a ton of smaller armies instead of one big army, I've starting thinking about getting a 1k(ish) Sisters of Battle force together.

Mostly: I love the look of the models, the super-over-the-top gothic thing, the flamers and meltas...

That being said: what would you folks say would be your MUST include for a small force (around 1k ish) of sisters?

Thanks in advance!


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/29 20:10:45


Post by: skycapt44


Model wise must includes for me are basic sisters, repentia, exorcist, mortifiers and celestine.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/30 05:55:06


Post by: Lammia


leerm02 wrote:
Hey there folks!

So, as I am one of those poor masochistic fools who try to have a ton of smaller armies instead of one big army, I've starting thinking about getting a 1k(ish) Sisters of Battle force together.

Mostly: I love the look of the models, the super-over-the-top gothic thing, the flamers and meltas...

That being said: what would you folks say would be your MUST include for a small force (around 1k ish) of sisters?

Thanks in advance!
'Must' is a very strong word, one I'd save for a Canoness and a BSS. Repentia and Superior are really very good, Seraphim/Zephyrim have uses; as does Doms, Rets are effective heavy weapon support, St. C is a powerful named Character, Sacrosants are solid choices that look the part and (unfortunately) Pen. Engines/Mortifiers are about the only Mech units worth taking...

What probably matters more is what you want your force to *look* like. But that is a question for you to answer.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/30 08:58:11


Post by: U02dah4


Cannoness

2 battle sisters boxes = 3 BS squads +1 Dominion

Repentia

Ebay a pious vorne (priest)

A squad of 4 multimelta rets is important you get 1 in each bs sister box if you get 2 off ebay you could make this instead of the Dominion squad

After that it depends a lot on subfaction
I would get a big character but your choice is very dependent on your playstyle vahl for shooty celestine if you want a beatstick triumph if your playing the mission


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/30 16:02:59


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


Honestly, get 1-2 Sororitas combat patrols when that comes out, it will cover a lot of your army for a reasonable cost and you can convert the 2nd Canoness and Repentia Superior into a Palatine and a Sister Superior.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/30 17:52:59


Post by: ERJAK


So played a game against admech recently (full tournament netlist from an experienced player) with a meme 12 Engine of Redemtion list.

Conclusion? Surprisingly, Legit.

I got smoke on objectives but killed 3/4ths of his army.

List was argentshroud patrol+Vanguard

9 mortifiers half flails half saws all heavy bolters, 3 pengines all HF and Saws. Celestine 2 full MM ret squads 1 HF ret squad, 3 SB dominions, 3 rhinos, Celestine, Canoness with Quicksilver Veil, IP, Brazier, Dogmata.

He went first, smoked a whole unit of morties, a rhino, a pengine, and a unit of stormbolters.

My turn MM eat a full unit of Laschickens and stormbolters mop up most of his flanking ruststalkers, heavy flamer pengines mortifiers celestine and some spare bolter shots leave 2 of his big skittarri blocks severely depleted (one with only 3 models left)

His turn deepstrikers come in and between that and laschickens wipe out my remaining rhinos and multimelta unit, and 3 mortifiers in melee (who failed ALL of their do stuff on death rolls, including the CP one) left flank is lost.

My turn Celestine wipes a character in shooting and gets into the chickens, everything else on the right side of the board is dead. Right flank secured.

He had 1 big unit of skittari 3 chickens and a depleted skitarri unit left, I had 1 mortifier Celestine, one unit of battle sisters, my canoness, and my HF rets left. He was MASSIVELY ahead on points and we ran out of time.

12 Engine of redemption is a legit strat against admech, especially after nerfs. 2 major problems are action secondaries and giving up 15 points of bring them down. Celestine is an engine of destruction and the 6 inch HI is insanely good. WAY better than Vahl in this type of list. Dogmata is mandatory to have any chance at scoring.

Adjustment to the list: Patrol becomes ebon chalice for warlord trait and flamer strat (palantine) drop a rhino and some bits and bobs for a deepstrike EC seraphim squad, add at least one unit of action slaves. Used Divine Guidance, should have taken Hand of the Emperor. EC bonus trait would be DG.

On a board with actual obscuring(local store has very minimal terrain, didn't bring my own) I think I could have won a 6 turn game. You will ALWAYS be behind for the first 2 turns.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/30 18:12:15


Post by: leerm02



It's funny you should post that, because I was honestly thinking of doing something similar! (a walker heavy list, though maybe getting some of those sick Paragon warsuits in on the action as well.)

Has anyone else had any luck with a heavy walker based sisters army? Obviously, objectives will be near impossible... but it seems really quite killy...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/30 19:00:43


Post by: Lammia


I expected it to be viable to good, but not scoring primary well and the easy secondary against it are two big hurdles to overcome. Idk it's even killy enough to make that work consistantly


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/30 19:54:13


Post by: Us3Less


U02dah4 wrote:
A squad of 4 multimelta rets is important you get 1 in each bs sister box if you get 2 off ebay you could make this instead of the Dominion squad


Just a quick note on this, you do not get a multi melta in the battle sister squad box. One of the models can carry one, but it's not included in the box. Retributors are pretty good though, so buying two boxes to have 4 multi meltas and 4 heavy flamers is not a waste.

Also, I would advise against getting the patrol twice when starting with sisters. Those models are all single build models, so there's no weapon options on the basic sisters. Apart from 2x 10 sisters with awkward equipment, you can't really use them. A box of battle sisters is pretty much a must because it gives you access to a lot of special weapons.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/31 10:33:32


Post by: U02dah4


I thought those heavy flamers were multimeltas but easily convertable


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/31 14:46:42


Post by: ERJAK


Lammia wrote:
I expected it to be viable to good, but not scoring primary well and the easy secondary against it are two big hurdles to overcome. Idk it's even killy enough to make that work consistantly


Killing wise, it murders. Every unit of yours is a significant threat in at least 2 phases of the game (Pengines with HF are a significant threat in 3. No one respects heavy flamer overwatch anymore.) Killing your opponent isn't the issue, especially if you bring enough AS stormbolters and EC flamers for some good mortal wounds.

The objective part is harder to sort. You can't contest infantry much and your only real obsec is from the dogmata. Losing all those points to Bring it down doesn't help. Plus side it's one of VERY few setups that has a solid chance of picking up 4 points per round of Slay the Heretic on multiple turns.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/31 19:38:12


Post by: BrianDavion


leerm02 wrote:
Hey there folks!

So, as I am one of those poor masochistic fools who try to have a ton of smaller armies instead of one big army, I've starting thinking about getting a 1k(ish) Sisters of Battle force together.

Mostly: I love the look of the models, the super-over-the-top gothic thing, the flamers and meltas...

That being said: what would you folks say would be your MUST include for a small force (around 1k ish) of sisters?

Thanks in advance!


Battlesisters, beyond those sisters can be pretty flex.

TBH I'd snag the combat patrol box and build from there


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/07/31 22:00:55


Post by: leerm02


Thanks for the responses guys!

As many have suggested: I think I'm going to start with just the battle-sisters and go from there. I figure a few blocks of basic troops will be useful for whatever I want my force to be, and I can decide at that point what direction I want to go in.

I'm also thinking that, in any game at least 1k points, Morvenn Vahl seems almost like an auto include. Plus the model is amazing!

That gives me an HQ and basic troops, which should be plenty to build off of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Addition:

Hey, when building the new plastic penitent engine/mortifiers... can you model them with both legs on the ground? I kind of hate the one leg standing thing as it pretty much always ends up falling over at some point (and half the time breaking).


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/01 02:57:08


Post by: Lammia


Vahl is more trap choice than auto include in games less than 1500 points, but she's a nice model.

Pen. Engine/Mortifiers are more monopose than what you want, but mine have been surprisingly durable


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/01 18:06:09


Post by: leerm02



Follow up question:

Are the paragon warsuits just a worse choice than mortifier/penitent engines? I'm having a hard time understanding why they cost more...


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/01 18:36:34


Post by: Lammia


leerm02 wrote:

Follow up question:

Are the paragon warsuits just a worse choice than mortifier/penitent engines? I'm having a hard time understanding why they cost more...
Better Keywords and defenses mostly...

They're not really worth it, but that's a reason


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/03 18:26:44


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


leerm02 wrote:

Follow up question:

Are the paragon warsuits just a worse choice than mortifier/penitent engines? I'm having a hard time understanding why they cost more...

Yeah Paragons pay for durability, their damage output is lacking though. Personally, I prefer threat saturation and punishing my opponent if they don't go after the Mortifiers.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/04 05:19:14


Post by: ZergSmasher


Curious as to how you all think this list will do at an upcoming GT I'm attending in a couple of weeks:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Bloody Rose
No FO slot:
Repentia Superior
HQ:
Morvenn Vahl (Warlord)
Canoness: Chainsword, Bolt Pistol, Relic: Benificence, Blessing: Word of the Emperor, Saint In The Making: Blazing Ire
Troops:
5 Battle Sisters: Chainsword, Combimelta, Meltagun
5 Battle Sisters: Chainsword
5 Battle Sisters: Chainsword
Elites:
10 Celestian Sacresants: 9x Anointed Halberd, Spear of the Faithful
Dialogus: Relic: Book of Saint Lucius, Saint In The Making: Indomitable Belief, Hymn: Litany of Enduring Faith
8 Repentia
8 Repentia
5 Repentia
Fast Attack:
5 Dominions: Chainsword, 4x AC Storm Bolter
5 Dominions: Chainsword, 4x AC Storm Bolter
10 Zephyrim: Pennant
Heavy Support:
3 Mortifiers: Heavy Bolters and Flails on each
5 Retributors: Chainsword, 4x Multimelta, 2x Armorium Cherub
5 Retributors: Chainsword, 4x Heavy Bolter, Armorium Cherub
Dedicated Transport:
Sororitas Rhino
Sororitas Rhino
1999 points, starts with 9 CP before putting things in reserves

The 5-girl Repentia unit goes with one unit of Dominions in one of the Rhinos, while the BSS with meltas goes with the other Dominions in their Rhino. I'll probably put one of the bigger Repentia units in reserves, and in some matchups the melta Retributors will also be reserved. My main concern is that I don't have enough ranged anti-vehicle stuff, but I kind of make up for it with nasty melee threats. In an ideal world I'd take Multimeltas on the second Retributor squad (probably dropping one of the Morties to make room), but I don't have the models and won't be able to acquire, build, and paint them in time in addition to everything else I've already got to prepare.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/04 06:41:06


Post by: Lammia


 ZergSmasher wrote:
Curious as to how you all think this list will do at an upcoming GT I'm attending in a couple of weeks:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Bloody Rose
No FO slot:
Repentia Superior
HQ:
Morvenn Vahl (Warlord)
Canoness: Chainsword, Bolt Pistol, Relic: Benificence, Blessing: Word of the Emperor, Saint In The Making: Blazing Ire
Troops:
5 Battle Sisters: Chainsword, Combimelta, Meltagun
5 Battle Sisters: Chainsword
5 Battle Sisters: Chainsword
Elites:
10 Celestian Sacresants: 9x Anointed Halberd, Spear of the Faithful
Dialogus: Relic: Book of Saint Lucius, Saint In The Making: Indomitable Belief, Hymn: Litany of Enduring Faith
8 Repentia
8 Repentia
5 Repentia
Fast Attack:
5 Dominions: Chainsword, 4x AC Storm Bolter
5 Dominions: Chainsword, 4x AC Storm Bolter
10 Zephyrim: Pennant
Heavy Support:
3 Mortifiers: Heavy Bolters and Flails on each
5 Retributors: Chainsword, 4x Multimelta, 2x Armorium Cherub
5 Retributors: Chainsword, 4x Heavy Bolter, Armorium Cherub
Dedicated Transport:
Sororitas Rhino
Sororitas Rhino
1999 points, starts with 9 CP before putting things in reserves

The 5-girl Repentia unit goes with one unit of Dominions in one of the Rhinos, while the BSS with meltas goes with the other Dominions in their Rhino. I'll probably put one of the bigger Repentia units in reserves, and in some matchups the melta Retributors will also be reserved. My main concern is that I don't have enough ranged anti-vehicle stuff, but I kind of make up for it with nasty melee threats. In an ideal world I'd take Multimeltas on the second Retributor squad (probably dropping one of the Morties to make room), but I don't have the models and won't be able to acquire, build, and paint them in time in addition to everything else I've already got to prepare.
Not sure what Vahl does/how she stays alive. But there's a lot of conventional wisdom in that list and I hope you do well with it.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/05 03:00:08


Post by: ZergSmasher


Lammia wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
Curious as to how you all think this list will do at an upcoming GT I'm attending in a couple of weeks:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Bloody Rose
No FO slot:
Repentia Superior
HQ:
Morvenn Vahl (Warlord)
Canoness: Chainsword, Bolt Pistol, Relic: Benificence, Blessing: Word of the Emperor, Saint In The Making: Blazing Ire
Troops:
5 Battle Sisters: Chainsword, Combimelta, Meltagun
5 Battle Sisters: Chainsword
5 Battle Sisters: Chainsword
Elites:
10 Celestian Sacresants: 9x Anointed Halberd, Spear of the Faithful
Dialogus: Relic: Book of Saint Lucius, Saint In The Making: Indomitable Belief, Hymn: Litany of Enduring Faith
8 Repentia
8 Repentia
5 Repentia
Fast Attack:
5 Dominions: Chainsword, 4x AC Storm Bolter
5 Dominions: Chainsword, 4x AC Storm Bolter
10 Zephyrim: Pennant
Heavy Support:
3 Mortifiers: Heavy Bolters and Flails on each
5 Retributors: Chainsword, 4x Multimelta, 2x Armorium Cherub
5 Retributors: Chainsword, 4x Heavy Bolter, Armorium Cherub
Dedicated Transport:
Sororitas Rhino
Sororitas Rhino
1999 points, starts with 9 CP before putting things in reserves

The 5-girl Repentia unit goes with one unit of Dominions in one of the Rhinos, while the BSS with meltas goes with the other Dominions in their Rhino. I'll probably put one of the bigger Repentia units in reserves, and in some matchups the melta Retributors will also be reserved. My main concern is that I don't have enough ranged anti-vehicle stuff, but I kind of make up for it with nasty melee threats. In an ideal world I'd take Multimeltas on the second Retributor squad (probably dropping one of the Morties to make room), but I don't have the models and won't be able to acquire, build, and paint them in time in addition to everything else I've already got to prepare.
Not sure what Vahl does/how she stays alive. But there's a lot of conventional wisdom in that list and I hope you do well with it.

Vahl is there to buff the Sacresants or the melta Rets. Keeping her alive could get tricky, but honestly I've seen her in a number of top lists in Goonhammer articles and none of them had super obvious ways to protect her. My upcoming tournament outing will likely give me some good education on how to run a Sisters list in competitive play (or how not to ). Hopefully I can get in a practice game or two before then.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/05 04:05:39


Post by: alextroy


Vahl is a 8 wound character. She stays alive via screening until she decides to mash things in melee. Then she relies on her solid defenses (2+, 4++, Half Damage, 4+++ vs Mortal Wounds).


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/05 06:31:24


Post by: Lammia


 alextroy wrote:
Vahl is a 8 wound character. She stays alive via screening until she decides to mash things in melee. Then she relies on her solid defenses (2+, 4++, Half Damage, 4+++ vs Mortal Wounds).
In theory, a largely MSU Sisters shouldn't be able to screen her well enough. I think the answer is just target saturation; there are too many things that are more important to kill.

The only other option I've sceen has a 20 and 10 model VH BSS blob.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/05 15:34:24


Post by: skycapt44


10 Sacrecents with 4++ 2+ and bodyguard rule do a good job of keeping her safe too. I think I'd swag the diologus for a dogmata with Indomitable belief and the invul hymn.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/05 20:31:17


Post by: alextroy


Vehicles will shield her nicely, as will large units of Repentia or relatively hard to put down units of Mortifiers or PE.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/05 21:16:10


Post by: U02dah4


5 sacresancts can keep her safe if she's in full view and their behind a LOS blocking wall but within 3"


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/06 01:51:35


Post by: ERJAK


Lammia wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Vahl is a 8 wound character. She stays alive via screening until she decides to mash things in melee. Then she relies on her solid defenses (2+, 4++, Half Damage, 4+++ vs Mortal Wounds).
In theory, a largely MSU Sisters shouldn't be able to screen her well enough. I think the answer is just target saturation; there are too many things that are more important to kill.

The only other option I've sceen has a 20 and 10 model VH BSS blob.


You only need 1 sacresant to make vahl untargetable. Just camp them out of LoS.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/06 05:43:23


Post by: ZergSmasher


skycapt44 wrote:
10 Sacrecents with 4++ 2+ and bodyguard rule do a good job of keeping her safe too. I think I'd swag the diologus for a dogmata with Indomitable belief and the invul hymn.

I considered choosing a Dogmata rather than a Dialogus (dropping a single Repentia or Sacresant to make the points difference). Two reasons I took the Dialogus instead: 1) I like the miracle dice manipulation, and 2) my Dialogus is already painted, unlike my Dogmata.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/06 06:20:38


Post by: Jarms48


When you disembark you get out 3" and then move 6". Most people just jump out 9" and as a result people think that a 'disembark' move is a thing.


Isn't that just the same thing? Tournament players just do that to save time.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/06 06:29:57


Post by: Lammia


Jarms48 wrote:
When you disembark you get out 3" and then move 6". Most people just jump out 9" and as a result people think that a 'disembark' move is a thing.


Isn't that just the same thing? Tournament players just do that to save time.
not quite


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/06 07:34:24


Post by: U02dah4


A lot of the time it is

But imagine you have big sisters bases and 10 models

They won't all fit within 3" of the front of the Rhino so some are going to end up further back which can be made worse by other units or terrain

Now in practice it's a short cut experienced players no when it makes a difference and when it really doesn't. I'm not going to carefully position every model when the target their chargeiging is 10" away and the front model is 9" forward. Or its an open field I can measure 9 and make the shape of the front of a rhino


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/06 19:28:34


Post by: ERJAK


U02dah4 wrote:
A lot of the time it is

But imagine you have big sisters bases and 10 models

They won't all fit within 3" of the front of the Rhino so some are going to end up further back which can be made worse by other units or terrain

Now in practice it's a short cut experienced players no when it makes a difference and when it really doesn't. I'm not going to carefully position every model when the target their chargeiging is 10" away and the front model is 9" forward. Or its an open field I can measure 9 and make the shape of the front of a rhino


The biggest difference comes from when people disembark near terrain. There's actually a batrep GK vs Sisters where the GK keep popping in and out of transports when parked right next to a ruin and does the incorrect disembark gaining himself at least and extra inch or two of movement each time.

While infantry may move freely through ruins, you aren't allowed to place a model INSIDE a physical wall, which would have been required to get the amount of movement the individual was taking. this would have pushed a significant chunk of the unit back, possibly pushing several models out of their maximum shooting range.

90% of the time it doesn't matter but A. When it does matter it matters a lot and B. Because people do it the quick way 90% of the time, people forget how the rules work and come up with nonsense like a 'disembark move'.


Sisters of Battle Tactics (2021 codex) @ 2021/08/12 21:59:27


Post by: ZergSmasher


Interesting article from Goonhammer featuring John Lennon discussing his recent winning Sisters list from the Lone Star Open:

https://www.goonhammer.com/john-lennon-talks-about-playing-sisters-of-battle-with-the-new-codex/