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Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 17:39:25


Post by: Abaddon303


Not seen any mention of the new book on here yet. Couple of interesting tidbits in the article today, not least rules for 7 chaos legions.
CSM getting supplementary rules before their codex? Do you think these rules might make Faith and Fury obsolete?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 17:45:03


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


I wonder if this means that the CSM Codex will be out soon, too. All the other armies in the Charadon books got their Codex already or are announced. Also strange there's no day 1 DLC for Orks in there.
This could also be the 2nd wound Patch everybody is waiting for hidden in a campaign book


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 17:49:55


Post by: Lord Damocles


Got some DLC for Sisters though


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 17:52:49


Post by: PenitentJake


I think it's likely that some of this material will be lifted from the PA book; if this doesn't make the PA obsolete, the dex will, so it's coming soon.

I couldn't tell from today's Warcom article if the Order of Our Martyred Lady stuff is a supplement (like Cult of Strife) or an Army of Renown with Vahl.

Either way, I wish they'd give one of the other orders some attention; OoOML get EVERYTHING.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 17:54:04


Post by: Gert


One rumour I saw concerning the CSM content was that it was just F&F repackaged. Someone else said someone else reported that though so honestly no idea. Guess we'll find out when GW does the previews for it.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 17:55:29


Post by: Daedalus81


 Lord Damocles wrote:
Got some DLC for Sisters though


Hate the DLC, but this will be a must buy for me for CSM ( well, Belakor stuff, anyway ). ( Must buy as in I'll be waiting until after the reviews... )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
One rumour I saw concerning the CSM content was that it was just F&F repackaged. Someone else said someone else reported that though so honestly no idea. Guess we'll find out when GW does the previews for it.


There would be riots, if true.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 17:58:34


Post by: a_typical_hero


Stoked for Disciples of Belakor. I'm eager to see what units you will be able to mix.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 18:08:51


Post by: Karol


I don't get it. SoB and ad mecha just came out. Why can't the rules be in their codex? Plus does this mean that the 1ksons/GK update is being pushed one month away?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 18:13:37


Post by: Gert


Because how would they get your money if they did that.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 18:19:42


Post by: Spoletta


This book could contain the most OP rules for my sisters and yet I would never get it.

I'm not funding these campaign books.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 18:21:49


Post by: PenitentJake


It's because they can give just one sub-faction with these rules; if it was in the dex, everyone would have to get it.

Armies of renown, arguably could go in a dex, but supplements could not- it wrecks the internal balance between subfactions. This also makes it possible for TO's and competitive events to exclude the material, which they would not have the option of doing if it was in the dex. It's one of the reasons I object to the DLC label.

This is not "material which was held back from a dex" - it is stuff that would not exist if the campaign book did not exist.

Simply put: including optional rules in a campaign book is one of the things that makes the rules optional.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 18:47:40


Post by: Tycho


This book could contain the most OP rules for my sisters and yet I would never get it.

I'm not funding these campaign books.


Different army but the same sentiment. Put the rules for my CSM where they flipping belong. IN. MY. CODEX.

PenitentJake wrote:
It's because they can give just one sub-faction with these rules; if it was in the dex, everyone would have to get it.

Armies of renown, arguably could go in a dex, but supplements could not- it wrecks the internal balance between subfactions. This also makes it possible for TO's and competitive events to exclude the material, which they would not have the option of doing if it was in the dex. It's one of the reasons I object to the DLC label.

This is not "material which was held back from a dex" - it is stuff that would not exist if the campaign book did not exist.

Simply put: including optional rules in a campaign book is one of the things that makes the rules optional.



That doesn't make much sense. At all. TOs could easily say "You can't use pages x-xx". Literally no different than saying "you can't use X supplement". If you showed up to an event trying to use your Crusade rules, they wouldn't say "Welp .... it's in the codex! Have to use it now!" A lot of this is likely to be material that has been held back from the 'dexe's of certain armies. Armies of Reknown is fine in the campaign book imo, but the handful of pages for the Traitor Legions should absolutely be in the codex. There's no reason not to. I am fine with the DLC label honestly. It applied pretty well to the first one. Maybe the second one will be different, but I'm not seeing any indication of that.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 19:07:47


Post by: bullyboy


Lets see if OML will get broken rules similar to CofS and relegate other Orders to narrative.

As for chaos, im currently using Chaos Codex, Faith and Fury, Vigilus Ablaze and Shadowspear demonkin booklet just to run my army. I don't need another supplement, I need a codex


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 19:09:46


Post by: Mr Morden


I like campaigns so will likely pick up


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 19:11:55


Post by: mrFickle


Will be interested for the disciples of belakor rules.

If the rest of the CSM updates are bridging rules before the next codex then this sucks biiiiiiig time


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 19:29:53


Post by: Abaddon303


Yeh disciples of belakor is a very interesting concept. Mortal followers means there is some faction blurring going on, I can't think of a time when they've done that in 8th or 9th.
What mortal units? I hope it's not just a bunch of cultists that would be very disappointing...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, there was the talons of the emperor stuff actually


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 19:33:58


Post by: tneva82


PenitentJake wrote:
It's because they can give just one sub-faction with these rules; if it was in the dex, everyone would have to get it.

Armies of renown, arguably could go in a dex, but supplements could not- it wrecks the internal balance between subfactions. This also makes it possible for TO's and competitive events to exclude the material, which they would not have the option of doing if it was in the dex. It's one of the reasons I object to the DLC label.

This is not "material which was held back from a dex" - it is stuff that would not exist if the campaign book did not exist.

Simply put: including optional rules in a campaign book is one of the things that makes the rules optional.



Eh whis puts internal balance just as screwed. If they are any good it's mandatory purchase. Whether it's in codex or here it's usable so if you don't get book and rules are good you are handicapping just as if you refused to use order bonuses from codex.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 19:40:54


Post by: dan2026


Abaddon303 wrote:
Yeh disciples of belakor is a very interesting concept. Mortal followers means there is some faction blurring going on, I can't think of a time when they've done that in 8th or 9th.
What mortal units? I hope it's not just a bunch of cultists that would be very disappointing...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, there was the talons of the emperor stuff actually


The picture that accompanied the first mention of Be'lakor's faction showed various CSM units. Including Terminators and Heldrakes.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 19:51:40


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


PenitentJake wrote:
I think it's likely that some of this material will be lifted from the PA book; if this doesn't make the PA obsolete, the dex will, so it's coming soon.

I couldn't tell from today's Warcom article if the Order of Our Martyred Lady stuff is a supplement (like Cult of Strife) or an Army of Renown with Vahl.

Either way, I wish they'd give one of the other orders some attention; OoOML get EVERYTHING.

TBH OoOML could do with a small power bump, they're kind of the jack of all trades, master of nun faction in the new Codex.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 20:23:30


Post by: Xenomancers


a_typical_hero wrote:
Stoked for Disciples of Belakor. I'm eager to see what units you will be able to mix.

Me too - extremely hyped for this.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 20:44:06


Post by: PenitentJake


Tycho wrote:


That doesn't make much sense. At all. TOs could easily say "You can't use pages x-xx". Literally no different than saying "you can't use X supplement". If you showed up to an event trying to use your Crusade rules, they wouldn't say "Welp .... it's in the codex! Have to use it now!" A lot of this is likely to be material that has been held back from the 'dexe's of certain armies. Armies of Reknown is fine in the campaign book imo, but the handful of pages for the Traitor Legions should absolutely be in the codex. There's no reason not to. I am fine with the DLC label honestly. It applied pretty well to the first one. Maybe the second one will be different, but I'm not seeing any indication of that.



So first off, we don't know what the chaos legion content will be. I think a lot of folks are worried that it will be essential content, and I believe this is a very valid concern. Legions didn't get as much content in the 8th dex as they should have, which made the PA content pretty much necessary. The same is true for a lot of armies, actually- their dexes were lean and weak compared to Marines 2.0 that they NEEDED the PA content to keep up. That was a huge mistake on GW's part, and it left a scar.

I hope that once all the books are on the table, the CSM dex will be good enough to play any legion without supplemental material. I suspect it's what GW was aiming for, though as we know, they don't always hit the mark. If the content for the Legions in the BoF does turn out to be essential once the 9th dex drops, you won't get any argument out of me- I'll absolutely agree it should have been in the dex. But for all we know, it's going to be an Army of Renown for each Legion, and if so, that's hardly MUST HAVE content.

I think that the BoR did a fairly good job at being optional- certainly it did a better job of it than most of the PA books. I'm very much hoping that the BoF manages the same, but it's a taller order since the 9th Chaos dex isn't out yet; that fact alone will make it SEEM necessary, whether it is or not.

But excluding a book IS easier than excluding parts of the dex- the caveat being "Ways to Play info" which was designed to be excluded by virtue of choosing one of the ways to play. Any tournament is going to tell you whether it's Matched or Crusade, with Matched being the obvious default. But if I told you I was excluding pages xx-xx from the SM dex, you'd actually have to look it up to see what's excluded. If I say "No Campaign books," you don't need to look anything up. We do this in D&D ALL the time. It's super easy to tell someone not to use a book.

If you exclude only certain pages, you're far more likely to end up with a 60 page Dakka thread arguing that some of the rules that weren't forbidden are worse than some that were. Excluding a campaign book comes with several built in excuses for not using it- from the practical (Because we didn't want our players to have to buy an extra book) to the fluffy (This tournament does not take place in the Charadon Sector during the era in question).


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 20:49:37


Post by: xerxeskingofking


Its worth pointing out that GW's schedule is still recovering form the Wider Global Situation, and i think its very likely that the CSM codex was originally intended to be released July or August, but got pushed back/other releases were given priority.

After all, Tsons and GK were supposed to be released at least 3 weeks ago, (before the suspended points adjustments were released), but are still not yet out for pre-order, so its several weeks before they drop. I wouldnt be supised if CSM drop this autumn.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 20:51:27


Post by: Karol


Why would anyone ban a legal book for a faction ? That sounds crazy.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 20:53:47


Post by: ERJAK


 bullyboy wrote:
Lets see if OML will get broken rules similar to CofS and relegate other Orders to narrative.

As for chaos, im currently using Chaos Codex, Faith and Fury, Vigilus Ablaze and Shadowspear demonkin booklet just to run my army. I don't need another supplement, I need a codex

They'd have to get 'if your opponent Blinks he loses' as a 1CP stratagem to go from arguably the worst order to being better than AS or BR.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 20:54:23


Post by: mrFickle


The Warhammer community page states that the disciples of belakor army is mortals and deamons.

So maybe no CSM in DOB but black legion and death guard are in the campaign.

This could be an entry for deamons army with the renegade guardsman models as the “mortals”. The current cultist models are the ones for cultists of the abyss so not sure that they would be used in this army of renown although they could be.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 21:09:36


Post by: Kanluwen


PenitentJake wrote:


So first off, we don't know what the chaos legion content will be. I think a lot of folks are worried that it will be essential content, and I believe this is a very valid concern. Legions didn't get as much content in the 8th dex as they should have, which made the PA content pretty much necessary. The same is true for a lot of armies, actually- their dexes were lean and weak compared to Marines 2.0 that they NEEDED the PA content to keep up. That was a huge mistake on GW's part, and it left a scar.

Everybody NEEDED the PA content to "keep up". It literally was a series designed to serve as a bridge for 9E.

CSM are not special. If it's essential content, either buy it or don't. It's becoming vastly irritating to constantly have threads about how these supplements are such "essential content" for matched play or casual players that have been sucked into metachasing by a de facto matched play environment.

Or there's the other irritating factor of "BUT WHY WASN'T IT IN THE BOOK!!!!"...because they didn't have it for everyone, so they left it out. People whined about the SM supplement book format, they whined about the PA format, they whined about the Vigilus format. There's literally no winning for them, so they've picked a method and run with it.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 21:15:41


Post by: Pickled_egg


Karol wrote:
I don't get it. SoB and ad mecha just came out. Why can't the rules be in their codex? Plus does this mean that the 1ksons/GK update is being pushed one month away?


Because GW has seen PC gaming companies introduce DLC and cottoned on that its a good way to make easy money.

At least they can't do loot boxes



Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 21:18:52


Post by: a_typical_hero


Pickled_egg wrote:
At least they can't do loot boxes

Oh my sweet summer child...


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 21:18:56


Post by: Kanluwen


Pickled_egg wrote:
Karol wrote:
I don't get it. SoB and ad mecha just came out. Why can't the rules be in their codex? Plus does this mean that the 1ksons/GK update is being pushed one month away?

Because GW has seen PC gaming companies introduce DLC and cottoned on that its a good way to make easy money.

Or because doing a spread for each subfaction in an army that doesn't just have a single subfaction would necessitate larger books.


At least they can't do loot boxes

Removed - BrookM


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 21:21:00


Post by: Pickled_egg


 Kanluwen wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:


So first off, we don't know what the chaos legion content will be. I think a lot of folks are worried that it will be essential content, and I believe this is a very valid concern. Legions didn't get as much content in the 8th dex as they should have, which made the PA content pretty much necessary. The same is true for a lot of armies, actually- their dexes were lean and weak compared to Marines 2.0 that they NEEDED the PA content to keep up. That was a huge mistake on GW's part, and it left a scar.

Everybody NEEDED the PA content to "keep up". It literally was a series designed to serve as a bridge for 9E.

CSM are not special. If it's essential content, either buy it or don't. It's becoming vastly irritating to constantly have threads about how these supplements are such "essential content" for matched play or casual players that have been sucked into metachasing by a de facto matched play environment.

Or there's the other irritating factor of "BUT WHY WASN'T IT IN THE BOOK!!!!"...because they didn't have it for everyone, so they left it out. People whined about the SM supplement book format, they whined about the PA format, they whined about the Vigilus format. There's literally no winning for them, so they've picked a method and run with it.


When they release the Drukhari codex and then a week later Book of Rust 1 with a must have Cult of Strife detachment its cynical DLC, simple as that. You can't defend that.
It looks like they are doing the same with sisters.

Personally I'd be fine with the Book of Rust series if it served as a bridge to balance factions that they know aren't getting a codex for a while OR kept it to non matched play formations/rules only.

It's the DLC following hot on the heels of codexes which is a joke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


At least they can't do loot boxes

Removed - BrookM


troll?

Any chance you can make your argument without resorting to Ad hominin attacks?

if you can't then don't waste my time.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 21:27:01


Post by: PenitentJake


 Kanluwen wrote:

Everybody NEEDED the PA content to "keep up".


Yeah, that's pretty much what I said, right? I mean sure, I used the words "a lot" rather than "all" because greater numbers of people tend to object to absolutes, but you and I are on the same page here.

 Kanluwen wrote:

CSM are not special. If it's essential content, either buy it or don't.


It isn't the CSM that are special in this context; it's the fact that their dex isn't out yet that is the issue. That's what's causing the speculation that this will be essential content.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It's becoming vastly irritating to constantly have threads about how these supplements are such "essential content" for matched play or casual players that have been sucked into metachasing by a de facto matched play environment.


Again, I agree 100%- in threads that argue Charadon content has been essential, I tend to disagree. And the post that you're quoting actually suggests that if we could see the Chaos dex, the material in the BoF is likely to be optional by comparison.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Or there's the other irritating factor of "BUT WHY WASN'T IT IN THE BOOK!!!!"...because they didn't have it for everyone, so they left it out. People whined about the SM supplement book format, they whined about the PA format, they whined about the Vigilus format. There's literally no winning for them, so they've picked a method and run with it.


Pretty much agree here too. It amazes me how many damned if they do/ damned if they don't situations come up on Dakka. There literally is no way for GW to keep everyone happy- every decision they make is going to be the wrong call for somebody.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 21:29:05


Post by: Kanluwen


Pickled_egg wrote:

When they release the Drukhari codex and then a week later Book of Rust 1 with a must have Cult of Strife detachment its cynical DLC, simple as that. You can't defend that.
It looks like they are doing the same with sisters.

First of all, do you know what the initial release dates were planned to be?

I'm going to guess "No".

Personally I'd be fine with the Book of Rust series if it served as a bridge to balance factions that they know aren't getting a codex for a while OR kept it to non matched play formations/rules only.

That's not what this is though. We don't have "formations" anymore, by the by. That was two editions ago.

The literal, whole point of this series is not to "serve as a bridge to balance factions". It's to highlight specific warzones. End of story. Some of the content is generic(Mechanicus Defense Force) while some of it is specific(Cult of Strife and Metalica rules) to groups engaged in that area.

Don't like it? Don't buy it.

It's the DLC following hot on the heels of codexes which is a joke.

Frankly, the joke is all the whining over these things. OH NOES THEY RELEASED A BOOK BEFORE/AROUND ANOTHER BOOK! The gall! Those blackguards!

In the real world, people should know that books have been delayed thanks to covid and the general screwed nature of worldwide shipping. We also know that there's several more warzones to come.

troll?

Any chance you can make your argument without resorting to Ad hominin attacks?

if you can't then don't waste my time.

Cool, you want an argument about lootboxes?

It's the weakest argument, literally, that anyone can make about something they dislike. They consistently use it as a way to try to make something sound awful or mandatory when it has zero involvement.

GW isn't some F2P game dev trying to get you constantly panic-buying because "DEAL! DEAL! DEAL!" during an in-game event. There's an expectation that (shock! horror!) some measure of monetary outlay will be necessary to be involved...but once that's done? You tend to not have to worry for awhile, unless you're involved in some specific elements of the game.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 21:40:58


Post by: Tycho


PenitentJake wrote:
Tycho wrote:


That doesn't make much sense. At all. TOs could easily say "You can't use pages x-xx". Literally no different than saying "you can't use X supplement". If you showed up to an event trying to use your Crusade rules, they wouldn't say "Welp .... it's in the codex! Have to use it now!" A lot of this is likely to be material that has been held back from the 'dexe's of certain armies. Armies of Reknown is fine in the campaign book imo, but the handful of pages for the Traitor Legions should absolutely be in the codex. There's no reason not to. I am fine with the DLC label honestly. It applied pretty well to the first one. Maybe the second one will be different, but I'm not seeing any indication of that.



So first off, we don't know what the chaos legion content will be. I think a lot of folks are worried that it will be essential content, and I believe this is a very valid concern. Legions didn't get as much content in the 8th dex as they should have, which made the PA content pretty much necessary. The same is true for a lot of armies, actually- their dexes were lean and weak compared to Marines 2.0 that they NEEDED the PA content to keep up. That was a huge mistake on GW's part, and it left a scar.

I hope that once all the books are on the table, the CSM dex will be good enough to play any legion without supplemental material. I suspect it's what GW was aiming for, though as we know, they don't always hit the mark. If the content for the Legions in the BoF does turn out to be essential once the 9th dex drops, you won't get any argument out of me- I'll absolutely agree it should have been in the dex. But for all we know, it's going to be an Army of Renown for each Legion, and if so, that's hardly MUST HAVE content.

I think that the BoR did a fairly good job at being optional- certainly it did a better job of it than most of the PA books. I'm very much hoping that the BoF manages the same, but it's a taller order since the 9th Chaos dex isn't out yet; that fact alone will make it SEEM necessary, whether it is or not.

But excluding a book IS easier than excluding parts of the dex- the caveat being "Ways to Play info" which was designed to be excluded by virtue of choosing one of the ways to play. Any tournament is going to tell you whether it's Matched or Crusade, with Matched being the obvious default. But if I told you I was excluding pages xx-xx from the SM dex, you'd actually have to look it up to see what's excluded. If I say "No Campaign books," you don't need to look anything up. We do this in D&D ALL the time. It's super easy to tell someone not to use a book.

If you exclude only certain pages, you're far more likely to end up with a 60 page Dakka thread arguing that some of the rules that weren't forbidden are worse than some that were. Excluding a campaign book comes with several built in excuses for not using it- from the practical (Because we didn't want our players to have to buy an extra book) to the fluffy (This tournament does not take place in the Charadon Sector during the era in question).



That is literally no different than saying "You cannot use the Legion rules from the CSM codex". It's exactly the same thing. Besides, I think the argument that it would cause balance issues is spurious at best, and if you're not going to do something because "it will cause an argument on Dakka" well, then, best to pack it up now and not do ANYTHING. lol


I would be with you if we were talking about ban saying "You cannot use the third page, second paragraph, third sentence from the wargear section" but that's not at all what this is, so saying they put it "here" to make it easier on TOs .... just no. Talk to ANY TO. Never in my life have I heard a TO say "Oh yeah! They scattered the rules across a bunch of different books, and now my life is so much easier!"

I agree with you that they did a decent enough job of keeping the first Charadon book to a level where it really is an "optional" buy (to me it is STILL not a true campaign book, but it's a lot closer than PA was lol), but their history when it comes to CSM is less than positive. Hopefully, it just ports the Legions to 9th so that they can be better used until the codex comes out. IF that's the case, then fine. If it turns out to be anything other than that ....






Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 21:43:29


Post by: Pickled_egg


 Kanluwen wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:

When they release the Drukhari codex and then a week later Book of Rust 1 with a must have Cult of Strife detachment its cynical DLC, simple as that. You can't defend that.
It looks like they are doing the same with sisters.

First of all, do you know what the initial release dates were planned to be?

I'm going to guess "No".

Personally I'd be fine with the Book of Rust series if it served as a bridge to balance factions that they know aren't getting a codex for a while OR kept it to non matched play formations/rules only.

That's not what this is though. We don't have "formations" anymore, by the by. That was two editions ago.

The literal, whole point of this series is not to "serve as a bridge to balance factions". It's to highlight specific warzones. End of story. Some of the content is generic(Mechanicus Defense Force) while some of it is specific(Cult of Strife and Metalica rules) to groups engaged in that area.

Don't like it? Don't buy it.

It's the DLC following hot on the heels of codexes which is a joke.

Frankly, the joke is all the whining over these things. OH NOES THEY RELEASED A BOOK BEFORE/AROUND ANOTHER BOOK! The gall! Those blackguards!

In the real world, people should know that books have been delayed thanks to covid and the general screwed nature of worldwide shipping. We also know that there's several more warzones to come.


I could easily turn your argument around though and say that you don't know what the release dates were supposed to be either and that it may have been "working as intended" to release Book of Rust the week after the Drukhari codex. But then I'd be arguing in bad faith like you are.

As for "Covid did it" that's not valid either.

The fact is if you are a Drukhari player who appreciates the competitive aspect of the game you needed to Buy Book of rust for 3-4 pages of rules. Please don't insult my intelligence and expect me to believe that the most competitive Cult option being hidden away in a DLC supplement is just a co-incidence and not a calculated move by GW to drive sales. And don't come back with the "Well don't buy it then" because if you played tournaments you would know you need a physical copy for most TO's and even if I attended a tournament where it wasn't required I would feel like it was a dick move not to have a physical copy for my opponent to read if we had a rules debate.

Its not acceptable that Drukhari players had to pay £50 instead of £25 to play the faction in a competitive format.

And now sisters players are coming in for the same treatment and its cynical and wrong.

Also when it comes to your "don't buy it then" argument, that's totally fine and that's exactly what I did when Plague purge and beyond the veil came out as crusade doesn't interest me and that works fine IF they keep the narrative and matched play books separate. But I would still defend any players in the community be they narrative/crusade, apoc or competitive players, nobody deserves to be gouged.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 21:55:29


Post by: Arachnofiend


Odds on the new campaign book referencing CSM stuff that doesn't exist yet? It's not outside the realm of possibility that this book was written after the CSM codex with all of the shipping issues, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the new content is built around 2-wound CSM or other potential changes in the codex.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 22:19:40


Post by: Kanluwen


 Arachnofiend wrote:
Odds on the new campaign book referencing CSM stuff that doesn't exist yet? It's not outside the realm of possibility that this book was written after the CSM codex with all of the shipping issues, it wouldn't surprise me if some of the new content is built around 2-wound CSM or other potential changes in the codex.

Higher than average odds, but it might not be specific units named out but rather wargear options that aren't available yet or Stratagems that don't exist yet.

If it contains World Eaters+Children though, that kills them as their own codices in 9E.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 22:30:36


Post by: BrianDavion


PenitentJake wrote:
I think it's likely that some of this material will be lifted from the PA book; if this doesn't make the PA obsolete, the dex will, so it's coming soon.

I couldn't tell from today's Warcom article if the Order of Our Martyred Lady stuff is a supplement (like Cult of Strife) or an Army of Renown with Vahl.

Either way, I wish they'd give one of the other orders some attention; OoOML get EVERYTHING.


my guess is it'll indeed be the F&F stuff as well as the vigilius stuff, (remember black Legions rules where in another book). and BOTH these books are out of print and unavaliable. and it's not like CSMs would be the only army using supplement info from 8th edition. they';d be sharing that with the non-snowflake marine chapters


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 22:38:22


Post by: PenitentJake


Pickled_egg wrote:

The fact is if you are a Drukhari player who appreciates the competitive aspect of the game you needed to Buy Book of rust for 3-4 pages of rules. Please don't insult my intelligence and expect me to believe that the most competitive Cult option being hidden away in a DLC supplement is just a co-incidence and not a calculated move by GW to drive sales. And don't come back with the "Well don't buy it then" because if you played tournaments you would know you need a physical copy for most TO's and even if I attended a tournament where it wasn't required I would feel like it was a dick move not to have a physical copy for my opponent to read if we had a rules debate.

Its not acceptable that Drukhari players had to pay £50 instead of £25 to play the faction in a competitive format.

And now sisters players are coming in for the same treatment and its cynical and wrong.



So I'm not a competitive minded guy- you may have some knowledge that I don't. But thinking back to the 60 page thread, I do remember many folks saying that with the one exception of a bonkers rules interaction with chain flails which eventually got FAQed, the CoS content in the BoR wasn't really all that game changing. In that thread, there were some people who ran huge analytics on the tourney winning lists, and they found that the list didn't actually make use of a lot of the stuff that people in the thread were complaining about. It's been a while, so I'm a bit rusty, and like I said, I'm not a competitive minded player myself.

The only sisters players who are going to want this are OoOML players, and right now Bloody Rose, Argent Shroud and Valorous Heart are far more likely to be played, despite GW's attempt to make OoOML THE poster sub-faction by giving them all the special characters.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 22:53:26


Post by: Sasori


I'm pretty excited book 2. I've had my Bel'akor model ready to go for a while now. I'm assuming the Mortal Followers means CSM.

I had speculated before that the CSM book was going to have to come with some kind of supplement to fit all the Faith and fury stuff, and it looks like it's going to be the Charadon book.

Much more excited for this one than I was for the first one, that's for sure.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 23:00:09


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Kanluwen wrote:
Or there's the other irritating factor of "BUT WHY WASN'T IT IN THE BOOK!!!!"...because they didn't have it for everyone, so they left it out. People whined about the SM supplement book format, they whined about the PA format, they whined about the Vigilus format. There's literally no winning for them, so they've picked a method and run with it.
Typical bad faith argument again, Kan.

People didn't like the rules in Charadon Book 1 because of the "Day-1 DLC" factor to it, the idea that books that had just come out suddenly had extra rules.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 23:03:46


Post by: Gert


 Kanluwen wrote:

Higher than average odds, but it might not be specific units named out but rather wargear options that aren't available yet or Stratagems that don't exist yet.

If it contains World Eaters+Children though, that kills them as their own codices in 9E.

I think people have been overhyping WE and EC to the point where loads of other people seem to think it's a given since Tsons and DG got theirs.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 23:09:23


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gert wrote:
I think people have been overhyping WE and EC to the point where loads of other people seem to think it's a given since Tsons and DG got theirs.
You call it 'overhyping'. Some of us call it 'hope'. Maybe that's foolish?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 23:11:07


Post by: Arachnofiend


 Gert wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Higher than average odds, but it might not be specific units named out but rather wargear options that aren't available yet or Stratagems that don't exist yet.

If it contains World Eaters+Children though, that kills them as their own codices in 9E.

I think people have been overhyping WE and EC to the point where loads of other people seem to think it's a given since Tsons and DG got theirs.

WE/EC have no reason to restrict their army rosters so it's a lot harder to justify them than DG/TS I think. Doubt many people want more Dark Angels-type books.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 23:14:52


Post by: Kanluwen


 Arachnofiend wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Higher than average odds, but it might not be specific units named out but rather wargear options that aren't available yet or Stratagems that don't exist yet.

If it contains World Eaters+Children though, that kills them as their own codices in 9E.

I think people have been overhyping WE and EC to the point where loads of other people seem to think it's a given since Tsons and DG got theirs.

WE/EC have no reason to restrict their army rosters so it's a lot harder to justify them than DG/TS I think. Doubt many people want more Dark Angels-type books.

World Eaters are harder to do, period, being a "Shattered Legion" effectively in the current timeline. Khorne Daemonkin seemed like a good prototype but was abandoned unfortunately.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/28 23:20:48


Post by: Gert


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You call it 'overhyping'. Some of us call it 'hope'. Maybe that's foolish?

Nah, see I would hope to see the two remaining God Legions expanded upon much like their AoS counterparts but I'm struggling to think of things that wouldn't just make them poorer versions of either CSM or DG/Tsons.
Updated Zerker and Noise Marine kits would be nice sure but what then? Boring copy-pastes of 30k units like Phoenix Guard and Red Butchers? Tsons have the different Legion Cults to draw on and the DG have each sub-faction get its own special plague. The only thing I could think of is maybe making the WE Codex similar to Khorne Daemonkin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:

World Eaters are harder to do, period, being a "Shattered Legion" effectively in the current timeline. Khorne Daemonkin seemed like a good prototype but was abandoned unfortunately.

KDK were an amazingly fun Codex to play, dying helped you, and killing helped you as well, Khorne to a T, or K as it was.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 00:24:02


Post by: BrianDavion


If I was going to design a World Eaters codex here's how I'd do it.

1: remove a handfull of CSM units that don't make sense for world eaters.

these would include:
- Sorcerers (duh)
-Lord Discordants (I just don't see the world eaters as being very techy and more likely to "contract that out")
-Master Of posession
- Rubric Marines, Plague Marines and Noise Marines
-Venom Crawlers (given these are pretty much designed to work alongside masters of posession I'd just not include em)
-Chaos Space Marines (while the world eaters would have access to shooty through chosen and Havocs, I think their TROOPS should be bezerkers)
- Raptors and Warp Talons (read on before you protest)
-Maulerfiends and forgefiends
- Chaos Terminators
- Predators (yet again wait before you comment)
- Dark Apostles.

Ok, so following this.. what would I ADD.

1st: A Bezerker style Terminator. I'd model them in Taratos style armor and make them pure Melee but make them a bit faster then standard termies.
2nd: - A Bezerker Jump Troop. I'd proably model this as a combi between bezerkers and the vanguard veterns. lots of power weapon options, chain axes as standard.
3rd - some new deamon engines, maybe a small dreadnought sized lord of skulls thing.
4th - I'm thinking a predator but one that has shorter ranges on it's guns and trades the sponsons in for troop capacity, BAAAASICLY a chaos razorback (excepgt with some fun chaosy tricks)
5th - the inevitable cultist variation
6th - Some sort of replacement for the dark apostle. similer idea but with some fun and intreasting rules.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 00:37:44


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I think they are not quite sure what to do with CSM honestly. DG was different. It has a focused theme that works. Being very resilient, killy in combat, but gives up speed as a result. So, slow but hard to kill is DG's theme.

Everything else in CSM seems to be a challenge to implement, especially since its all meshed into one codex. They simply don't dare to make any one single aspect too good, because when mixed in with every else the codex has, that might tip it into OP territory.

So, for example. They don't dare to make shooting too good for CSM, even if its Emperors Children, because lots of CSM units can fight well even with their base stats, They also don't dare to make melee too good for CSM, even it its just World Eaters, because again lots of units in CSM can shoot well even with their base stats too.

So end up, CSM just gets all the situational fluffy stuff while staying relatively mediocre.

I would end up buying the Charadon book of fire anyway in the end. I love to read about the stories and campaigns and stuff like that. And if they have stuff that will make my CSM interesting in thematic ways, I am all for it.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 00:57:06


Post by: Marshal Loss


RE: EC, I'd happily put up with another edition in the mainstream CSM book if they actually gave us new Noise Marines when the damn codex arrives. Anybody thinking that WE + EC don't possess as much potential as DG/TS for their own book is nuts though. Each of the cult legions deserves it.

Just expecting this to be F&F + Vigilus Ablaze (minus specialist detachments) updated for 9th. No second wound etc.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 01:26:18


Post by: BrianDavion


 Marshal Loss wrote:
RE: EC, I'd happily put up with another edition in the mainstream CSM book if they actually gave us new Noise Marines when the damn codex arrives. Anybody thinking that WE + EC don't possess as much potential as DG/TS for their own book is nuts though. Each of the cult legions deserves it.

Just expecting this to be F&F + Vigilus Ablaze (minus specialist detachments) updated for 9th. No second wound etc.


the second wound'll arrive with the codex. I expect that GW'll go through the old F&F stuff etc and the only changes will be future proofing it.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 01:44:03


Post by: Marshal Loss


Obviously. GW outright told us that the second wound would come with the codex, thus why I said I wasn't expecting it. The real question is whether the codex was intended to be out by now, but we'll probably know that soon enough


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 01:49:54


Post by: PenitentJake


If so, that likely means we'll get it in September.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 02:18:41


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


PenitentJake wrote:
The only sisters players who are going to want this are OoOML players, and right now Bloody Rose, Argent Shroud and Valorous Heart are far more likely to be played, despite GW's attempt to make OoOML THE poster sub-faction by giving them all the special characters.

Exactly this. I play OoOML because that's what my Sisters force is and their order rules are "good enough" that I'll accept not playing the optimal orders. A potential, reasonable bump from Charadon is actually exciting to me (if only because, lol, I'm not actually going to pay for the whole book).


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 02:36:16


Post by: BrianDavion


I would have liked to see some sort of "frateritus militant" army list. a combo sisters/guard force basicly


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 02:53:23


Post by: Racerguy180


I use Junith all the time in my Bloody Rose. She's just not Junith but the Lamenth of St Mina.

Absolutely zero chance I'll switch orders just to have bestest.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 03:03:28


Post by: ERJAK


Racerguy180 wrote:
I use Junith all the time in my Bloody Rose. She's just not Junith but the Lamenth of St Mina.

Absolutely zero chance I'll switch orders just to have bestest.


I mean, if you're already making up rules wholesale why would ANY rule matter to you? Why do you even have the codex? You could just declare OoML makes all attacks do D3+3 mortal wounds on a 2+ and be done with it.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 03:05:30


Post by: JNAProductions


ERJAK wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
I use Junith all the time in my Bloody Rose. She's just not Junith but the Lamenth of St Mina.

Absolutely zero chance I'll switch orders just to have bestest.


I mean, if you're already making up rules wholesale why would ANY rule matter to you? Why do you even have the codex? You could just declare OoML makes all attacks do D3+3 mortal wounds on a 2+ and be done with it.
I'm pretty sure they're using Junith's rules, just with their BR army.

And, moreover, the world is not binary. It's possible to say "I hate how CSM have only one wound still-mind if I pop them up 3 points and give them a second wound?" without ignoring every single rule.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 03:31:54


Post by: Racerguy180


I do care about rules and zero players have had any issue with it. Pay the points, no problem. I just care less about GW's asinine reasoning

But there is only official or not....apparently.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 04:27:04


Post by: Karol


 Kanluwen wrote:

First of all, do you know what the initial release dates were planned to be?

I'm going to guess "No".


We actually know that very well. There was a poster showing DG coming up in december, but before that month came, GW said they are having delays of some sort and that stuff is going to be pushed back. And we also know that DE were suppose to come out after DG.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 04:37:43


Post by: Seabass


I had no idea we were getting new stuff for the CSM legions, and I was already going to buy the book for Be'lakor, so this is a pretty sweet bonus for me.

I'm not real big on the theme forces they release in the books, but you don't have to have them. I'm pretty confident that Drukhari players can win without the additional rules for the cult of strife, and i don't think anyone in matched play cares about the armies of renowned armies for admech and typhus so far.

Obviously, that can change, but I think the idea of it being a "required supplement" may be a bit overspoken, save for maybe if you have and want to use Be'lakor.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 04:44:48


Post by: Karol


I have not seen a DE army without a strife succubus since the book came out.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 05:03:34


Post by: Racerguy180


Karol wrote:
I have not seen a DE army without a strife succubus since the book came out.


Well it is "OP", so of course you'd see a ton of lists including them.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 05:15:31


Post by: Karol


Well then it makes the book the definition of obligatory. Same could be said about trying to play GK without their PA book.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 06:00:21


Post by: dan2026


I'm wondering how much of the CSM and Daemons books Be'lakor will be able to take.

I hope I can take Greater Daemons, but probably not.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 06:05:15


Post by: tneva82


Racerguy180 wrote:
Karol wrote:
I have not seen a DE army without a strife succubus since the book came out.


Well it is "OP", so of course you'd see a ton of lists including them.


And all you need is one OP addition to the faction in book and it becomes must have. Like vigilus became must have for orks because of one relic


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 06:08:45


Post by: Racerguy180


Must have is a nebulous term...


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 06:28:36


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


Karol wrote:
Well then it makes the book the definition of obligatory. Same could be said about trying to play GK without their PA book.


No. Obligatory means you can't play the faction in a game of 40K without the book. However, you can play CSM and GK just fine with just the Codizes or even with just the datasheets in the boxes. It might not be the easiest way to win in a matched play game, but there are other ways to play and winning is not even the most important aspect of the game so that these books are in no way "obligatory".


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 07:33:34


Post by: Dysartes


BrianDavion wrote:
and BOTH these books are out of print and unavaliable.


Not sure about GW Canadia, Brian, but Faith & Fury (and War of the Spider, for what it's worth) is still showing available as a physical book on GW UK.

Vigilus is definitely OOP, though.

Vigilus and the PA books are also available on Warhammer Digital, though I don't think you save enough by buying the ePub over the DTE.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 07:55:19


Post by: a_typical_hero


ERJAK wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
I use Junith all the time in my Bloody Rose. She's just not Junith but the Lamenth of St Mina.

Absolutely zero chance I'll switch orders just to have bestest.


I mean, if you're already making up rules wholesale why would ANY rule matter to you? Why do you even have the codex? You could just declare OoML makes all attacks do D3+3 mortal wounds on a 2+ and be done with it.

Are you a Sith Lord who only deals in absolutes? What a way overblown reaction to somebody saying "In agreement with my fellow players, I made a small adjustment to one rule (sub-faction restriction) so I can enjoy my army more" lol.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 07:58:53


Post by: tneva82


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well then it makes the book the definition of obligatory. Same could be said about trying to play GK without their PA book.


No. Obligatory means you can't play the faction in a game of 40K without the book. However, you can play CSM and GK just fine with just the Codizes or even with just the datasheets in the boxes. It might not be the easiest way to win in a matched play game, but there are other ways to play and winning is not even the most important aspect of the game so that these books are in no way "obligatory".


Well you don't need codexes either. You can just throw dice and say pow pow noices


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 08:13:39


Post by: mrFickle


I think a V1 EC codex would be easy to create, there are a number of characters already well known, noise weapons would be a major theme and then fast attack units like bikers could be a big factor


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 08:34:04


Post by: BrianDavion


 Dysartes wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
and BOTH these books are out of print and unavaliable.


Not sure about GW Canadia, Brian, but Faith & Fury (and War of the Spider, for what it's worth) is still showing available as a physical book on GW UK.

Vigilus is definitely OOP, though.

Vigilus and the PA books are also available on Warhammer Digital, though I don't think you save enough by buying the ePub over the DTE.


ahh you're right. still I imagine GW would like to be able to shift the 8th edition books like that out of print. but yeah I'll be picking the book up when it comes avaliable and I have F&F so if no one else does it I'll compare the two books to see what, if anything, has changed


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 08:53:54


Post by: Fergie0044


Bleh, more DLC for new codexs? I sincerely hope that this (and the previous Charadon book for that matter) are massive sales flops so GW stops doing this. I was already annoyed that my brand new DG codex was no longer complete mere weeks after release, and it seems like they're about to do the same to Sisters players.

If they really want to do campaign books like this they should have a big 'narrative play only' stamp on the front.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 08:58:36


Post by: Dai


I'll be getting it. Love campaign content and additional fluff.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 09:04:17


Post by: AngryAngel80


Yes, Yes, let the bloat flow through you.

Their blatant money hungry bloat pandering is awful. Still won't support and I think it sucks.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 09:09:26


Post by: Arachnofiend


Dai wrote:
I'll be getting it. Love campaign content and additional fluff.

These would be much better books if they didn't have matched play content in them, frankly. Curious, who here would complain if these were dedicated Crusade releases?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 09:10:20


Post by: AngryAngel80


tneva82 wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well then it makes the book the definition of obligatory. Same could be said about trying to play GK without their PA book.


No. Obligatory means you can't play the faction in a game of 40K without the book. However, you can play CSM and GK just fine with just the Codizes or even with just the datasheets in the boxes. It might not be the easiest way to win in a matched play game, but there are other ways to play and winning is not even the most important aspect of the game so that these books are in no way "obligatory".


Well you don't need codexes either. You can just throw dice and say pow pow noices


I rarely agree with this poster but I agree with them now. If the rules literally make a faction workable or feel like a must have inclusion not calling them mandatory is pretty dumb. Saying " Well you may never win, but it doesn't mean you need it. " Yeah that kinda does make it mandatory and you need it as I don't know even one player that feels great losing every game. The PA rules were not " mandatory " but they did enough to make the factions worthwhile that they were kind of mandatory if you were playing games with that faction.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 09:11:24


Post by: a_typical_hero


 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes, Yes, let the bloat flow through you.

Their blatant money hungry bloat pandering is awful. Still won't support and I think it sucks.

I won't get the book, but I don't understand the "bloat" part.

Back in the day of 3/3.5 edition Dungeons & Dragons there were over 100 rule books from which you could draw rules from to create your characters. I absolutely loved the edition for having so much "bloat".

5th edition in comparison feels bland with what feels like one rule book every other year.

What's negative bloat for you is positive filling out of lore/factions for me.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 09:25:03


Post by: Tyel


a_typical_hero wrote:
I won't get the book, but I don't understand the "bloat" part.

Back in the day of 3/3.5 edition Dungeons & Dragons there were over 100 rule books from which you could draw rules from to create your characters. I absolutely loved the edition for having so much "bloat".

5th edition in comparison feels bland with what feels like one rule book every other year.

What's negative bloat for you is positive filling out of lore/factions for me.


I think the issue is that D&D isn't really a competitive experience. So the fact someone has the ruleset to play a dozen different types of fighter doesn't really impact the game. Sure one subclass will mathematically be better than the rest - but the game isn't rooted in Munchkining.

GW would like to argue I think the same with 40k. You don't *need* this set of relics/stratagems/special rules to play the game.
But in practice, if they are better than other ones (and there's usually at least one solid combo) then it feels mandatory for you to own these rules if you are going to a competitive tournament.

I also think its a time issue. I wouldn't really mind a cycle where say you get your codex, then 18-24 months later you get a supplement containing a theme-list with odd special rules, then 12-18 months on you get a new codex etc.
But this system of "okay you bought the book. But btw a handful of weeks later there will be another book containing 4 extra pages of rules that clearly could have gone into the codex" feels bad.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 09:26:15


Post by: AngryAngel80


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Gert wrote:
I think people have been overhyping WE and EC to the point where loads of other people seem to think it's a given since Tsons and DG got theirs.
You call it 'overhyping'. Some of us call it 'hope'. Maybe that's foolish?



Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. You should know this by now, especially with GW. They tell us all the time and they were warning us of their business practices this whole time but we thought it was about fluff. Oh we were young then.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 09:28:08


Post by: BrianDavion


a_typical_hero wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes, Yes, let the bloat flow through you.

Their blatant money hungry bloat pandering is awful. Still won't support and I think it sucks.

I won't get the book, but I don't understand the "bloat" part.

Back in the day of 3/3.5 edition Dungeons & Dragons there were over 100 rule books from which you could draw rules from to create your characters. I absolutely loved the edition for having so much "bloat".

5th edition in comparison feels bland with what feels like one rule book every other year.

What's negative bloat for you is positive filling out of lore/factions for me.


I agree. 40k is the only game I've ever played where played Complain about having more options.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 09:29:36


Post by: AngryAngel80


a_typical_hero wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes, Yes, let the bloat flow through you.

Their blatant money hungry bloat pandering is awful. Still won't support and I think it sucks.

I won't get the book, but I don't understand the "bloat" part.

Back in the day of 3/3.5 edition Dungeons & Dragons there were over 100 rule books from which you could draw rules from to create your characters. I absolutely loved the edition for having so much "bloat".

5th edition in comparison feels bland with what feels like one rule book every other year.

What's negative bloat for you is positive filling out of lore/factions for me.


Good for you but I didn't like that bloat either. It was just books for books sake and I didn't consider it a boon of 3.5 D and D either. Though its great to know we disagree.I don't like rules for my armies being spread out over lord knows how many books, its just a pain in the bum bum and overly expensive as I couldn't give a flying fig leaf over some sure to be not very interesting story or content I won't ever use for just like 3 pages I may use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes, Yes, let the bloat flow through you.

Their blatant money hungry bloat pandering is awful. Still won't support and I think it sucks.

I won't get the book, but I don't understand the "bloat" part.

Back in the day of 3/3.5 edition Dungeons & Dragons there were over 100 rule books from which you could draw rules from to create your characters. I absolutely loved the edition for having so much "bloat".

5th edition in comparison feels bland with what feels like one rule book every other year.

What's negative bloat for you is positive filling out of lore/factions for me.


I agree. 40k is the only game I've ever played where played Complain about having more options.


How about we get those options back in our wargear selections ? Oh wait...

So options of paying GW more money for burn and churn " optional " rule books is good options but having more options for weapons we can take in squads is bad. Well at least I have the option to pay GW more money for 3 or 4 pages of rules while being narrowly hamstrung by punitive weapon choices for squads so they can make no sense. Very cool, thanks for the options GW.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 09:31:26


Post by: mrFickle


Would it be better if they stated that the additional rules are only usable if you are playing the campaign? So if you buy the book you are buying to play the campaign and if your not interested in the campaign then you don’t feel compelled to buy it for the rules to keep up with the Jones


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 09:36:38


Post by: AngryAngel80


mrFickle wrote:
Would it be better if they stated that the additional rules are only usable if you are playing the campaign? So if you buy the book you are buying to play the campaign and if your not interested in the campaign then you don’t feel compelled to buy it for the rules to keep up with the Jones


That would be much better yes but they won't do that because they realize the only thing that sells these books to a high degree is keeping up with the jonses. Take that away and you have a waste of a print run for them as they feed on the matched play crowd.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 10:03:02


Post by: Fergie0044


Yea, for all their talk about "three ways to play" GW must be smart enough to know that matched play players are the golden geese that drive book sales.

Although I don't think GW is malicious enough to make the Charadon rules deliberately OP. Its just a natural consequence of one sub faction having more strats/relics/warlord traits etc than another, hence why CoS is so good. Meanwhile the Ad Mech and DG rules weren't as bad, as they have actual restrictions.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 10:06:45


Post by: mrFickle


 Fergie0044 wrote:
Yea, for all their talk about "three ways to play" GW must be smart enough to know that matched play players are the golden geese that drive book sales.

Although I don't think GW is malicious enough to make the Charadon rules deliberately OP. Its just a natural consequence of one sub faction having more strats/relics/warlord traits etc than another, hence why CoS is so good. Meanwhile the Ad Mech and DG rules weren't as bad, as they have actual restrictions.


I think the way the games is setup making new rules OP or fixing weakness is the only way to make new rules interesting. They never seem to change the way the army plays just for fun.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 10:48:32


Post by: BrianDavion


mrFickle wrote:
 Fergie0044 wrote:
Yea, for all their talk about "three ways to play" GW must be smart enough to know that matched play players are the golden geese that drive book sales.

Although I don't think GW is malicious enough to make the Charadon rules deliberately OP. Its just a natural consequence of one sub faction having more strats/relics/warlord traits etc than another, hence why CoS is so good. Meanwhile the Ad Mech and DG rules weren't as bad, as they have actual restrictions.


I think the way the games is setup making new rules OP or fixing weakness is the only way to make new rules interesting. They never seem to change the way the army plays just for fun.


I disagree, they often do but we tend to forget about them pretty fastand fixate in the "OP stuff that will win matched play"


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 10:56:05


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


 AngryAngel80 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well then it makes the book the definition of obligatory. Same could be said about trying to play GK without their PA book.


No. Obligatory means you can't play the faction in a game of 40K without the book. However, you can play CSM and GK just fine with just the Codizes or even with just the datasheets in the boxes. It might not be the easiest way to win in a matched play game, but there are other ways to play and winning is not even the most important aspect of the game so that these books are in no way "obligatory".


Well you don't need codexes either. You can just throw dice and say pow pow noices


I rarely agree with this poster but I agree with them now. If the rules literally make a faction workable or feel like a must have inclusion not calling them mandatory is pretty dumb. Saying " Well you may never win, but it doesn't mean you need it. " Yeah that kinda does make it mandatory and you need it as I don't know even one player that feels great losing every game. The PA rules were not " mandatory " but they did enough to make the factions worthwhile that they were kind of mandatory if you were playing games with that faction.


Just look at the amount of people here saying they won't buy the book - it's pretty much not mandatory, obviousely. If you want that additional content, go get it, but your faction will be playable without it just fine. The book is only mandatory if you want to play the Charadon warzone campaign.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 11:30:20


Post by: Amishprn86


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well then it makes the book the definition of obligatory. Same could be said about trying to play GK without their PA book.


No. Obligatory means you can't play the faction in a game of 40K without the book. However, you can play CSM and GK just fine with just the Codizes or even with just the datasheets in the boxes. It might not be the easiest way to win in a matched play game, but there are other ways to play and winning is not even the most important aspect of the game so that these books are in no way "obligatory".


Well you don't need codexes either. You can just throw dice and say pow pow noices


I rarely agree with this poster but I agree with them now. If the rules literally make a faction workable or feel like a must have inclusion not calling them mandatory is pretty dumb. Saying " Well you may never win, but it doesn't mean you need it. " Yeah that kinda does make it mandatory and you need it as I don't know even one player that feels great losing every game. The PA rules were not " mandatory " but they did enough to make the factions worthwhile that they were kind of mandatory if you were playing games with that faction.


Just look at the amount of people here saying they won't buy the book - it's pretty much not mandatory, obviousely. If you want that additional content, go get it, but your faction will be playable without it just fine. The book is only mandatory if you want to play the Charadon warzone campaign.


Or if something is BiS and you do events Cough DE, cough DE, cough cough


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 12:05:38


Post by: Pickled_egg


 Arachnofiend wrote:
Dai wrote:
I'll be getting it. Love campaign content and additional fluff.

These would be much better books if they didn't have matched play content in them, frankly. Curious, who here would complain if these were dedicated Crusade releases?


I for one wouldn't complain if the War zone books were purely narrative.

Nor would I complain if the matched play content in the War zone books was for faction who aren't getting codexes for a while.

Its the optics of the "one week later DLC" which people are rightly annoyed with.

It doesn't have to be this way, GW has us all wrapped around its finger and we will lap up whatever they put out, they don't need to engage in the practise of DLC.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
a_typical_hero wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Yes, Yes, let the bloat flow through you.

Their blatant money hungry bloat pandering is awful. Still won't support and I think it sucks.

I won't get the book, but I don't understand the "bloat" part.

Back in the day of 3/3.5 edition Dungeons & Dragons there were over 100 rule books from which you could draw rules from to create your characters. I absolutely loved the edition for having so much "bloat".

5th edition in comparison feels bland with what feels like one rule book every other year.

What's negative bloat for you is positive filling out of lore/factions for me.


But with bloat often comes inbalance, Back in the day (3.5) I had to ban the book of nine swords from my D&D table as everything in it was open to abuse and every character was coming with the same broken combinations.

And D&D by its nature isn't supposed to be a game where the players are competing against eachother or the GM, 40k on the otherhand is exactly that.
Throw in competition play and surely you see the issue?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 12:31:23


Post by: a_typical_hero


Pickled_egg wrote:
But with bloat often comes inbalance, Back in the day (3.5) I had to ban the book of nine swords from my D&D table as everything in it was open to abuse and every character was coming with the same broken combinations.

And D&D by its nature isn't supposed to be a game where the players are competing against eachother or the GM, 40k on the otherhand is exactly that.
Throw in competition play and surely you see the issue?
Bo9S was my favourite out of the bunch Loved how it made fights more than just "I make a full attack" for melees.

D&D isn't competitive, but the fun for everyone is just as ruined if the power level between two characters is too big. As a GM you surely understood how impossible it is to challenge a "core only, lvl 20 Fighter" and a creative Wizard who knows their stuff at the same time.

Same applies to 40k, really. If you show up with the latest netlist pre-nerf Dhrukari against someone who plays a casual Guard list, it won't be a good game for either of you.
I acknowledge that the more rulebooks you have, the higher is the chance that there might be something (too) strong in it, but that is a trade off for more options that I willingly take.

On a side note:
It is easier to say "can we please not use that book today?" than "Here are my 5 pages of homebrew rules I want to use in our battle".


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 12:35:47


Post by: jaredb


I'm really interested to see what this chaos force looks like, that's a cool place to explore.

Looking forward to reading the story as well!


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 13:41:23


Post by: Pickled_egg


a_typical_hero wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
But with bloat often comes inbalance, Back in the day (3.5) I had to ban the book of nine swords from my D&D table as everything in it was open to abuse and every character was coming with the same broken combinations.

And D&D by its nature isn't supposed to be a game where the players are competing against eachother or the GM, 40k on the otherhand is exactly that.
Throw in competition play and surely you see the issue?
Bo9S was my favourite out of the bunch Loved how it made fights more than just "I make a full attack" for melees.

D&D isn't competitive, but the fun for everyone is just as ruined if the power level between two characters is too big. As a GM you surely understood how impossible it is to challenge a "core only, lvl 20 Fighter" and a creative Wizard who knows their stuff at the same time.

Same applies to 40k, really. If you show up with the latest netlist pre-nerf Dhrukari against someone who plays a casual Guard list, it won't be a good game for either of you.
I acknowledge that the more rulebooks you have, the higher is the chance that there might be something (too) strong in it, but that is a trade off for more options that I willingly take.

On a side note:
It is easier to say "can we please not use that book today?" than "Here are my 5 pages of homebrew rules I want to use in our battle".


Well D&D has been impossible to balance at level 20 in every single iteration, but I get what you are saying about Bo9S helping fighters compete with wizards.
I just got tired of every character speccing into one or two broken abilities, I'm an old fart now so I forgot the name of the key culprit I wanna say It was Diamond Heart or Iron mind or something like that.

But I feel its getting a little off topic

I think the bloat is going to catch up to 40k at some point, but I can't argue against your personal preference of liking more options we just differ on it.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 15:16:44


Post by: xeen


So there is no N&R thread for this book for some reason so I will post it here just so everyone sees it........

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/29/belakors-back-and-the-galaxys-mightiest-warriors-should-be-very-afraid/

Bel'akor looks awesome. First I think the model is absolutely stunning but man is he going to be a beast. And the Noctic discipline looks pretty great as I would use all three of those powers, and it looks like psykers in his army can also use that discipline, which is cool. I am looking forward to this book. To bad the two codex that it affects (CSM/Daemons) are still not out yet, which is so A** backwards.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 15:26:45


Post by: the_scotsman


Pickled_egg wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:

When they release the Drukhari codex and then a week later Book of Rust 1 with a must have Cult of Strife detachment its cynical DLC, simple as that. You can't defend that.
It looks like they are doing the same with sisters.

First of all, do you know what the initial release dates were planned to be?

I'm going to guess "No".

Personally I'd be fine with the Book of Rust series if it served as a bridge to balance factions that they know aren't getting a codex for a while OR kept it to non matched play formations/rules only.

That's not what this is though. We don't have "formations" anymore, by the by. That was two editions ago.

The literal, whole point of this series is not to "serve as a bridge to balance factions". It's to highlight specific warzones. End of story. Some of the content is generic(Mechanicus Defense Force) while some of it is specific(Cult of Strife and Metalica rules) to groups engaged in that area.

Don't like it? Don't buy it.

It's the DLC following hot on the heels of codexes which is a joke.

Frankly, the joke is all the whining over these things. OH NOES THEY RELEASED A BOOK BEFORE/AROUND ANOTHER BOOK! The gall! Those blackguards!

In the real world, people should know that books have been delayed thanks to covid and the general screwed nature of worldwide shipping. We also know that there's several more warzones to come.


I could easily turn your argument around though and say that you don't know what the release dates were supposed to be either and that it may have been "working as intended" to release Book of Rust the week after the Drukhari codex. But then I'd be arguing in bad faith like you are.

As for "Covid did it" that's not valid either.

The fact is if you are a Drukhari player who appreciates the competitive aspect of the game you needed to Buy Book of rust for 3-4 pages of rules. Please don't insult my intelligence and expect me to believe that the most competitive Cult option being hidden away in a DLC supplement is just a co-incidence and not a calculated move by GW to drive sales.


Given that, less than a month after release, that most competitive cult option that was present in the book of rust got deleted from a game in a GENERAL GAME WIDE FAQ AFFECTING ALL ARMIES, I would say yeah, it seems likely to me that it was a co-incidence, and the specific interaction between a generic weapon and a particular warlord trait that caused a character to throw an average of 28 attacks was unintended.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 15:49:38


Post by: ninjafiredragon


Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 16:03:21


Post by: PenitentJake


I expect Be'Lakor to martyr a fair number of sisters, but I don't think we'll be letting him or his infernal minions use too many of their witch powers.

What better way to repent our sins than charging headlong with eviscerators hungry to bring the Emperor's wrath to Heresy made flesh?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 16:05:12


Post by: Xenomancers


 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

That stratagem is going to be nerfed for the auto wounds. Not much need to worry about that IMO. Heck even DE with poison is a big threat to belakor.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 16:07:14


Post by: JNAProductions


 Xenomancers wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

That stratagem is going to be nerfed for the auto wounds. Not much need to worry about that IMO. Heck even DE with poison is a big threat to belakor.
Hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s means they'll take 96 D1 poison shots to bracket him, and twice that to kill him.

It's possible, sure-but I've not seen DE lists taking that much poison.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 16:17:55


Post by: ninjafiredragon


I don't understand what nerf that strategum could take to make it still not oppressive. Or, at least the fix I hear most people thinking it will get changed to, is not much better.

Say they change it from a 4+ to hit being auto to a 4+ to wound being auto. Does it fix it? No.

60 shots hitting on 2s rerolling means, even with benefit of the doubt, 2 shots miss. 58 shots hit, now rolling to wound means 29 auto wounds. Compared to the 30 auto wounds that the strategum is RAW getting. That's marginally better and still extremely oppressive.

The only way I see the strategum not be oppressive is if A) It doesn't work on monsters (unlikely, doesn't really work with the fluff) B) they cap the amount of wounds generated by this strategum to 10 (also seems unlikely, as the only thing GW seems to sometimes cap is mortal wounds), or C) reduce the max size of skitarii units back to 10 (this is my hope as it would make things the most balanced imo, but is also the most unlikely for GW to do).

And that's just one of the broken problems coming from ad mech.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 16:26:56


Post by: Xenomancers


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

That stratagem is going to be nerfed for the auto wounds. Not much need to worry about that IMO. Heck even DE with poison is a big threat to belakor.
Hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s means they'll take 96 D1 poison shots to bracket him, and twice that to kill him.

It's possible, sure-but I've not seen DE lists taking that much poison.

Yeah at least the -1 to hit and wound have an effect on poison shots. My standard kabal only list has 5 raider boats with a darklance on a 10 man kabal - rapid fire at max range with splint racks. That is 90 poison shots and 10 dark lances with a reroll wound from obsidian rose. Pretty good chance at killing belakor or putting him in final bracket with just about 1000 points of firepower.

The 4+ to hit auto wound stratagem pretty much completely bypasses Belkors defense though.
Just say 60 shots - 30 autowounds - belekor is dead or has 2 or so wounds left - he only has a 4++ save. This is the most stupid stratagem to ever exist. 160 points outshoots 1000 points of dedicated anti monster firepower. It shouldn't survive very long in it's current form.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
I don't understand what nerf that strategum could take to make it still not oppressive. Or, at least the fix I hear most people thinking it will get changed to, is not much better.

Say they change it from a 4+ to hit being auto to a 4+ to wound being auto. Does it fix it? No.

60 shots hitting on 2s rerolling means, even with benefit of the doubt, 2 shots miss. 58 shots hit, now rolling to wound means 29 auto wounds. Compared to the 30 auto wounds that the strategum is RAW getting. That's marginally better and still extremely oppressive.

The only way I see the strategum not be oppressive is if A) It doesn't work on monsters (unlikely, doesn't really work with the fluff) B) they cap the amount of wounds generated by this strategum to 10 (also seems unlikely, as the only thing GW seems to sometimes cap is mortal wounds), or C) reduce the max size of skitarii units back to 10 (this is my hope as it would make things the most balanced imo, but is also the most unlikely for GW to do).

And that's just one of the broken problems coming from ad mech.

The simple fix is - make the stratagem exploding 6's. So each 6 to hit counts as 2 autowounds. Very much like the necron stratagem which is 6's to hit auto wound.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 16:57:23


Post by: Sterling191


FYI as written minuses to wound have no affect on Drukhari poison. That ability allows wounds to go off on an unmodified value equal to or greater than the Poison value. Modifying the roll does bupkis.

Transhuman trumps it because it has the "regardless of other abilities" clause. Smoky boi does not.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 16:59:13


Post by: JNAProductions


Sterling191 wrote:
FYI as written minuses to wound have no affect on Drukhari poison. That ability allows wounds to go off on an unmodified value equal to or greater than the Poison value. Modifying the roll does bupkis.

Transhuman trumps it because it has the "regardless of other abilities" clause. Smoky boi does not.
Really?

Huh. Feels kinda dumb to make that bypass wound maluses, but so it is.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 17:04:34


Post by: Xenomancers


 JNAProductions wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
FYI as written minuses to wound have no affect on Drukhari poison. That ability allows wounds to go off on an unmodified value equal to or greater than the Poison value. Modifying the roll does bupkis.

Transhuman trumps it because it has the "regardless of other abilities" clause. Smoky boi does not.
Really?

Huh. Feels kinda dumb to make that bypass wound maluses, but so it is.
I wasn't certain how it worked. That makes a significant difference for drakari vs him. 90 shots = 45 hits = 22.5 wounds = 12 wounds. Then a single dark lance wound will kill him - or 2 if he spends 2 CP to block the first one. It is pretty much a 0 chance situation. It is pretty much exactly the same for Morty. Also auto lose vs DE and Admech.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 17:05:19


Post by: JNAProductions


 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
FYI as written minuses to wound have no affect on Drukhari poison. That ability allows wounds to go off on an unmodified value equal to or greater than the Poison value. Modifying the roll does bupkis.

Transhuman trumps it because it has the "regardless of other abilities" clause. Smoky boi does not.
Really?

Huh. Feels kinda dumb to make that bypass wound maluses, but so it is.
I wasn't certain how it worked. That makes a significant difference for drakari vs him. 90 shots = 45 hits = 22.5 wounds = 12 wounds. Then a single dark lance wound will kill him - or 2 if he spends 2 CP to block the first one. It is pretty much a 0 chance situation. It is pretty much exactly the same for Morty. Also auto lose vs DE and Admech.
22.5/2=11.25.

No idea how you get 12 from that.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 17:19:53


Post by: Xenomancers


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
FYI as written minuses to wound have no affect on Drukhari poison. That ability allows wounds to go off on an unmodified value equal to or greater than the Poison value. Modifying the roll does bupkis.

Transhuman trumps it because it has the "regardless of other abilities" clause. Smoky boi does not.
Really?

Huh. Feels kinda dumb to make that bypass wound maluses, but so it is.
I wasn't certain how it worked. That makes a significant difference for drakari vs him. 90 shots = 45 hits = 22.5 wounds = 12 wounds. Then a single dark lance wound will kill him - or 2 if he spends 2 CP to block the first one. It is pretty much a 0 chance situation. It is pretty much exactly the same for Morty. Also auto lose vs DE and Admech.
22.5/2=11.25.

No idea how you get 12 from that.

You are right - so it would be 11 rounded down. So the first dark lance would need to roll a 5 for damage to kill him.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 17:28:56


Post by: PenitentJake


All of that math is contingent on deploying where the 20 Skitarii have a clear LoS to big B and then they get the first turn.

If I ever play Big B, I just won't do that.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 17:33:10


Post by: Xenomancers


PenitentJake wrote:
All of that math is contingent on deploying where the 20 Skitarii have a clear LoS to big B and then they get the first turn.

If I ever play Big B, I just won't do that.

The can deep strike them turn 1 with a relic. They can Deep strike another on turn 2. It is unavoidable. If 160 points is controlling where 450 points can go...you have also already won.

Just get it out of your mind that you can beat this stratagem. You can't beat it with an elite monster in your list. That is for sure.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 17:35:30


Post by: Sterling191


 JNAProductions wrote:

Huh. Feels kinda dumb to make that bypass wound maluses, but so it is.


Keep in mind that poison is generally gak against moderate to good save targets, especially of the infantry variety. Your basic 5-man kabalite squad is killing a whopping 1 (maaaaaybe 2) guardsman per salvo on average (assuming you get into RF range). MEQ, and especially TEQ targets can safely ignore it. Where it shines is against high toughness, poor save, non-vehicle targets. Which is generally only a handful of models that actually see play. Boo Boo is unfortunately one of those.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 18:17:37


Post by: Xenomancers


Sterling191 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:

Huh. Feels kinda dumb to make that bypass wound maluses, but so it is.


Keep in mind that poison is generally gak against moderate to good save targets, especially of the infantry variety. Your basic 5-man kabalite squad is killing a whopping 1 (maaaaaybe 2) guardsman per salvo on average (assuming you get into RF range). MEQ, and especially TEQ targets can safely ignore it. Where it shines is against high toughness, poor save, non-vehicle targets. Which is generally only a handful of models that actually see play. Boo Boo is unfortunately one of those.

Personally I am not a fan of poison. Eldar should have advanced weaponry - not posion darts. I would have much prefered DE focus on monofilament weapons or something. The ony thing poison is really good at is killing monsters. Kinda strange...you would certainly expect an army that has come to feast on the pain of their enemies would be more concerned with infantry.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 18:21:57


Post by: Quasistellar


I think of poison weapons as a terribly painful way to die. I don't know the exact fluff behind drukhari weapons, but I imagine dying by one of their poisoned weapons is more slow and painful than a bolter. Hard to represent that on the table though--a casualty is a casualty (although there could also be leadership penalties, but drukhari have other stuff for that)


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 19:07:33


Post by: Daedalus81


 Xenomancers wrote:

The can deep strike them turn 1 with a relic. They can Deep strike another on turn 2. It is unavoidable. If 160 points is controlling where 450 points can go...you have also already won.


18" guns and obscuring terrain. Buffer the firing lanes with chaff. This isn't always a slam dunk.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 19:15:14


Post by: Xenomancers


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

The can deep strike them turn 1 with a relic. They can Deep strike another on turn 2. It is unavoidable. If 160 points is controlling where 450 points can go...you have also already won.


18" guns and obscuring terrain. Buffer the firing lanes with chaff. This isn't always a slam dunk.

18/21 is actually plenty. The amount of area you need to screen Is enormous to block that. Essentially you'd have to clog up a 30" bubble to prevent them from shooting you. Not to mention morty/magnus don't get the obscuring rule. Belakor does though I think hes only 16 wounds.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 20:23:16


Post by: Daedalus81


The unit has a foot print of it's own. It is pretty easy to spread to either side of obscuring terrain. Yes, B is 16. M&M are going to want to come in from reserves.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 20:41:08


Post by: Arachnofiend


Reminder that Belakor is a daemon and his army will thus have access to Nurglings. Dude's gonna have some screening.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 22:01:09


Post by: the_scotsman


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

That stratagem is going to be nerfed for the auto wounds. Not much need to worry about that IMO. Heck even DE with poison is a big threat to belakor.
Hitting on 4s and wounding on 5s means they'll take 96 D1 poison shots to bracket him, and twice that to kill him.

It's possible, sure-but I've not seen DE lists taking that much poison.


wound on 4s.

Poison is a weapon that has a strength value (usually 2) but it has a special rule that causes a natural roll of 4+ to always succeed. So his "-1 to wound rolls" ability doesnt matter.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/29 22:03:13


Post by: Seabass


Belakor isn't so huge that he cant be hidden. If you look at the tables from the US Tournament packet, I think he could pretty safely deploy.

Deepstriking anywhere for any possible attack vector is a lot more difficult now that tables are smaller. It might just be my area (because my tables look a lot like GW's tournament tables, with lots of obscuring terrain) but a lot of players have stopped deep striking in units because finding a place for them to deploy, that's relevant is getting a lot more difficult.

He will also have access to screening units, like Arachnofiend stated, nurglings specifically, some of the best little screening units in the game, as well as demons in general. I think if you plan to screen belakor it can be done relatively well.

also, not everyone plays drukhari or admech. i think he'll be a fine choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote:
I expect Be'Lakor to martyr a fair number of sisters, but I don't think we'll be letting him or his infernal minions use too many of their witch powers.

What better way to repent our sins than charging headlong with eviscerators hungry to bring the Emperor's wrath to Heresy made flesh?


How THIS is how you 40K!


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 10:02:08


Post by: AngryAngel80


 Xenomancers wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

That stratagem is going to be nerfed for the auto wounds. Not much need to worry about that IMO. Heck even DE with poison is a big threat to belakor.


Is this from the same source that said the Deathwing inner circle terminators would get nerfed ? I'm just curious if I have awhile to wait for those nerfs.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 13:42:28


Post by: Daedalus81


 AngryAngel80 wrote:


Is this from the same source that said the Deathwing inner circle terminators would get nerfed ? I'm just curious if I have awhile to wait for those nerfs.


He did, but I personally am ok with DA termies.

This situation is a bit different since it is offensive in nature. It should probably get nerfed, buuuut I haven't seen much data or had any games against admech to develop a strong opinion.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 13:47:47


Post by: Xenomancers


 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Bel'akor looks awesome. For casual play.
In competitive play where you have to play against ad mech I can't see how he's not a 300-400 point sink that will die in a single round of shooting.

Maybe hiding behind obscuring till needed can help, but it's not looking good.
Even if you get into combat with one of their units, they just fall back, blast you with 12 d3+3 lascannon shots from chickens, and even -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and the strategum aren't going to help you there. I guess we will see. Hard to get excited though with admech looming over.

That stratagem is going to be nerfed for the auto wounds. Not much need to worry about that IMO. Heck even DE with poison is a big threat to belakor.


Is this from the same source that said the Deathwing inner circle terminators would get nerfed ? I'm just curious if I have awhile to wait for those nerfs.

The source was me - I guessed wrong. After looking at the space marine and Necron Codex (which clearly have something called "restraint" imbedded in their rules) I figured DA was a mistake. It wasn't. The power creep is real.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 14:01:57


Post by: Daedalus81


Xenomancers 799373 11161465 ec1b4a53663f66e7ade4121ad439d863 wrote:
The source was me - I guessed wrong. After looking at the space marine and Necron Codex (which clearly have something called "restraint" imbedded in their rules) I figured DA was a mistake. It wasn't. The power creep is real.


Is it powercreep when it doesn't result in sustained win percentages above 50%?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 14:21:33


Post by: Xenomancers


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers 799373 11161465 ec1b4a53663f66e7ade4121ad439d863 wrote:
The source was me - I guessed wrong. After looking at the space marine and Necron Codex (which clearly have something called "restraint" imbedded in their rules) I figured DA was a mistake. It wasn't. The power creep is real.


Is it powercreep when it doesn't result in sustained win percentages above 50%?
You got me dude. Turns out that Terminators are actually that bad in the place in the marine codex that you can give them free and excessive extra rules DA and they still don't do overly well. Its not just the terms - it's the characters too. Or the reality is - DE was so broken it didn't matter.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 14:35:43


Post by: Pickled_egg


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

The can deep strike them turn 1 with a relic. They can Deep strike another on turn 2. It is unavoidable. If 160 points is controlling where 450 points can go...you have also already won.


18" guns and obscuring terrain. Buffer the firing lanes with chaff. This isn't always a slam dunk.


maybe true, but the point is you have to actually do something with Be'lakor rather than skulk him about at the back hiding behind screens otherwise that is nearly a quarter of your army doing nothing.
So in effect your 400+ point model is indeed locked down by 160 pts and your opponent probably has redundancy with at least one more block of 20 to make the same play should the first go down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:

When they release the Drukhari codex and then a week later Book of Rust 1 with a must have Cult of Strife detachment its cynical DLC, simple as that. You can't defend that.
It looks like they are doing the same with sisters.

First of all, do you know what the initial release dates were planned to be?

I'm going to guess "No".

Personally I'd be fine with the Book of Rust series if it served as a bridge to balance factions that they know aren't getting a codex for a while OR kept it to non matched play formations/rules only.

That's not what this is though. We don't have "formations" anymore, by the by. That was two editions ago.

The literal, whole point of this series is not to "serve as a bridge to balance factions". It's to highlight specific warzones. End of story. Some of the content is generic(Mechanicus Defense Force) while some of it is specific(Cult of Strife and Metalica rules) to groups engaged in that area.

Don't like it? Don't buy it.

It's the DLC following hot on the heels of codexes which is a joke.

Frankly, the joke is all the whining over these things. OH NOES THEY RELEASED A BOOK BEFORE/AROUND ANOTHER BOOK! The gall! Those blackguards!

In the real world, people should know that books have been delayed thanks to covid and the general screwed nature of worldwide shipping. We also know that there's several more warzones to come.


I could easily turn your argument around though and say that you don't know what the release dates were supposed to be either and that it may have been "working as intended" to release Book of Rust the week after the Drukhari codex. But then I'd be arguing in bad faith like you are.

As for "Covid did it" that's not valid either.

The fact is if you are a Drukhari player who appreciates the competitive aspect of the game you needed to Buy Book of rust for 3-4 pages of rules. Please don't insult my intelligence and expect me to believe that the most competitive Cult option being hidden away in a DLC supplement is just a co-incidence and not a calculated move by GW to drive sales.


Given that, less than a month after release, that most competitive cult option that was present in the book of rust got deleted from a game in a GENERAL GAME WIDE FAQ AFFECTING ALL ARMIES, I would say yeah, it seems likely to me that it was a co-incidence, and the specific interaction between a generic weapon and a particular warlord trait that caused a character to throw an average of 28 attacks was unintended.



Even with comp edge being fixed CoS is still the best cult by some distance.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 16:41:35


Post by: Daedalus81


Pickled_egg wrote:


maybe true, but the point is you have to actually do something with Be'lakor rather than skulk him about at the back hiding behind screens otherwise that is nearly a quarter of your army doing nothing.
So in effect your 400+ point model is indeed locked down by 160 pts and your opponent probably has redundancy with at least one more block of 20 to make the same play should the first go down.


What he can do will rely heavily on if they update CSM legions with useful rules.

He's not the unit working to trade out the vanguard blocks. That should be chaincannon havoc or similar.

With Shades and good positioning you can put threatening units close to the action.

Otherwise B is very anti-elite and a bit anti-msu so far.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 16:44:50


Post by: bullyboy


ERJAK wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Lets see if OML will get broken rules similar to CofS and relegate other Orders to narrative.

As for chaos, im currently using Chaos Codex, Faith and Fury, Vigilus Ablaze and Shadowspear demonkin booklet just to run my army. I don't need another supplement, I need a codex

They'd have to get 'if your opponent Blinks he loses' as a 1CP stratagem to go from arguably the worst order to being better than AS or BR.



Guaranteed that the rules will be obnoxious enough to have people run a patrol of OML alongside BR.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 16:46:20


Post by: Audustum


Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 16:49:10


Post by: Xenomancers


Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 18:35:38


Post by: Seabass


 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.


You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 19:42:51


Post by: Audustum


 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.


While somewhat true (I don't know exactly how long ago it was written), I'm really skeptical he has a price change without any actual play data at all. Staying 360 is a fairly safe bet to me.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 19:54:21


Post by: Xenomancers


Seabass wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.


You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 19:54:51


Post by: JNAProductions


 Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.


You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.
Don't you play Ultramarines?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 19:59:09


Post by: Seabass


 Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.


You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.


That should be, under the current auspices of "admech OP" a slam dunk for them. vehicles and expensive units for them to use all of those laser chickens on, plus the 4+ strat, seems like they should have just eaten that list alive (at least as i think of a list with lots of dreads and tanks). Why do you think the same cannot be made of DoB army?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 20:15:26


Post by: Xenomancers


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.


You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.
Don't you play Ultramarines?

Played blue hands - Ultramarines have a god awful chapter tactic. Having just completed painting 3 storm speeders and 3 gladiators I've been testing them out. Pretty good results so far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seabass wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.


You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.


That should be, under the current auspices of "admech OP" a slam dunk for them. vehicles and expensive units for them to use all of those laser chickens on, plus the 4+ strat, seems like they should have just eaten that list alive (at least as i think of a list with lots of dreads and tanks). Why do you think the same cannot be made of DoB army?
They did not have a lot of laser chickens. Only 3. Also had some bad units like Kataphrons. Between Ironstone and FNP I didn't lose a single tank turn 1 and he went first - healed over half the damage dealt to a storm speeder and a dread. My return shooting phase was crippling though. List was far from optimized. The way you beat Ad mech is to spam vehicles - this is also a pretty effective strategy against DE. Infantry are obsolete at the moment with the existence of auto wound stratagem. Monsters too - totally obsolete.





Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 20:47:59


Post by: Seabass


 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.


You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.
Don't you play Ultramarines?

Played blue hands - Ultramarines have a god awful chapter tactic. Having just completed painting 3 storm speeders and 3 gladiators I've been testing them out. Pretty good results so far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seabass wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Seabass wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.


You know, admech aren't unbeatable, right? Like, that codex is good, but they can be beaten. How many games have you played against them? It sounds like you have been losing to a really good admech player, and in the hands of a really good player, that codex is very strong, but it's not impossible to play against.

My issue is a few stratagems that are way to powerful. I've only played against admech once and I won. Played Ironahnds with lots of tanks and dreads.


That should be, under the current auspices of "admech OP" a slam dunk for them. vehicles and expensive units for them to use all of those laser chickens on, plus the 4+ strat, seems like they should have just eaten that list alive (at least as i think of a list with lots of dreads and tanks). Why do you think the same cannot be made of DoB army?
They did not have a lot of laser chickens. Only 3. Also had some bad units like Kataphrons. Between Ironstone and FNP I didn't lose a single tank turn 1 and he went first - healed over half the damage dealt to a storm speeder and a dread. My return shooting phase was crippling though. List was far from optimized. The way you beat Ad mech is to spam vehicles - this is also a pretty effective strategy against DE. Infantry are obsolete at the moment with the existence of auto wound stratagem. Monsters too - totally obsolete.





man, you are living in fear of that stratagem. you do know you can kill them right? they aren't that hard to bring down unless they literally dump a ton of CP and characters to buff them up. and your argument is "this is the way you beat them" but they are also hideously OP. I don't want to sound like too much of a dick, but this isnt checking out.

Also, gladiator tanks are good, i agree on that. they are better than people give them credit for.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 23:28:35


Post by: ninjafiredragon


The way to beat ad-mech is vehicles?

Interesting, really interesting.

Especially considering the tournament winning ad mech lists from this past weekend involve 6+ las chickens. With proper buffs those things can eradicate multiple gladiators in one turn. They are the best anti vehicle units in the game.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/06/30 23:35:15


Post by: PenitentJake


 Xenomancers wrote:
The way you beat Ad mech is to spam vehicles



Glad to hear this. Taking plenty of vehicles against us is EXACTLY what an Admech Crusade wants you to do... Then we can smash them and use the scrap to build GLORIOUS MACHINES!


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 07:24:09


Post by: JakeSiren


 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.

CA should be accurate and would have been written with Be'lakor's new stats in mind, otherwise he would be still sitting around 200 points.

I'm interested to see how Be'lakor will mesh with pure Chaos Daemons, it seems like GW want to soup him with the mortal followers though. I hope that taking mortals with Chaos Daemons doesn't become mandatory in general.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 09:34:12


Post by: mrFickle


So when is this book released?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 10:44:48


Post by: Karol


 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.


He is very hard to impossible to kill for elite armies. I am not sure how someting like GK or Custodes are going to deal with him. Because shoting doesn't really work, and melee is not much better, and if he can use the dmg nullification on himself , which I hope he can't, single burst damage coming through is not going to work against him either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake 799373 11161824 wrote:
Glad to hear this. Taking plenty of vehicles against us is EXACTLY what an Admech Crusade wants you to do... Then we can smash them and use the scrap to build GLORIOUS MACHINES!


I am rather sure that the use of unsanctioned materials with combination of blessed imperial tech, is a high heresy. It would be like creating xeno-human hybdrids. Regular priests can't even touch non imperial tech. They need a writ from the Fabricator General, and either be explorator or be on clandestine mission, which are kind of a heretical too, and if a priest performing them gets caught, the priesthood just feigns ignorance and claims the explorator/priest in case was a rogue all along.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 11:08:24


Post by: BrianDavion


Karol wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Just as a FYI the new CA points say Belakor is 360 so a bit cheaper than the thread is assuming.
New CA was written 6 months ago or longer. There is no guarantee that his points cost is accurate in CA. At 360 he is quite the steal though if admech did not exist. Useless with the existence of admech. sadface.


He is very hard to impossible to kill for elite armies. I am not sure how someting like GK or Custodes are going to deal with him. Because shoting doesn't really work, and melee is not much better, and if he can use the dmg nullification on himself , which I hope he can't, single burst damage coming through is not going to work against him either.


none of his defences seem to work vs mortal wounds. So in theory Grey Knights could be in a good position to handle him if their new codex ups their ability to inflict mortal wounds on deamons


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 11:16:14


Post by: Karol


True, but using a 115/230pts squad to do 1 or 2MW to a 360pts model, with a chance to be stoped or plain fail the roll is a bit of a problem. I think.Specially as not killing him means, he will charge ignore invs, and heal himself up. Unless GW keeps the enhanced demon MW, but this is still a requirement of using 600+pts with all rolls passing, to kill a 360pts model, that moves much faster then anything GK have. And it will will only get worse when csm get updated.

And custodes can't do even do the MW thing. It is a strange costed model. Something like a baneblade or NDK seems very over costed.

Maybe it is balanced for a world where he can be pelted with 6 dark lance shots+people inside with re-rolls to hit for the raiders. Or eat 40 +4wounding auto shots from a unit that teleports.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 11:51:06


Post by: BrianDavion


I think GW is more likely to BUFF the damage GKs do vs Deamons then nerf it.

as for Custodes yeah they're in a bad position but I suspect their new codex will come out with some new toys.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 12:32:34


Post by: Rihgu


A Strike squad would do 4 MW with a Smite in the Tide of Escalation.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 12:34:45


Post by: PenitentJake


Karol wrote:


I am rather sure that the use of unsanctioned materials with combination of blessed imperial tech, is a high heresy. It would be like creating xeno-human hybdrids. Regular priests can't even touch non imperial tech. They need a writ from the Fabricator General, and either be explorator or be on clandestine mission, which are kind of a heretical too, and if a priest performing them gets caught, the priesthood just feigns ignorance and claims the explorator/priest in case was a rogue all along.


Those who are pursuing the Tech Scavengers Agenda have clearly already applied for and received any permissions they need... Unless, of course, the controlling player chooses to create a narrative in which the Crusade may later be subjected to disciplinary action in an Admech vs Admech battle.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 12:34:53


Post by: Karol


Well they nerfed the damage of loyalist marines on all their older stuff, and the only new model GK are getting is single character. But who knows. Considering the book was suppose to out months ago, same as the 1ksons one, there is practically zero rumours about either of the armies. The talk that DE are going to be OP was being done in autum last year, and Ad Mecha having powerful rules was talked about in january. So it is hard to judge, but general rule of life, I would rather be realistic about GW style of updates and then be suprised, then hope that GW does it right this time around, and be dissapointed. Done that with FAQs and CAs in 8th, and I think I grew out of hope.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 13:50:29


Post by: bullyboy


If you play Grey Knights and are afraid to take on Belakor, then you are not playing Grey Knights correctly (especially thematically)!


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 19:06:19


Post by: BrianDavion


Karol wrote:
Well they nerfed the damage of loyalist marines on all their older stuff, and the only new model GK are getting is single character..


Ok first of all, no they didn't nerf "older marine stuff damage"
with 9th edition they buffed the damage of several weapons, such as flamers, multi-Meltas etc. this had a much more obvious impact on first born marines then it did Primaris. so you're completely wrong on that. first born marines are in a BETTER place this edition.
Secondly new stuff isn't nesscarily the big thing here, dark eldar got nothing new yet somehow are a top codex right now.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 19:19:42


Post by: Arachnofiend


BrianDavion wrote:
I think GW is more likely to BUFF the damage GKs do vs Deamons then nerf it.

God I hope not. The more GK's are just an outright counterpick for daemons the more that army does not deserve to exist, frankly.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 19:36:44


Post by: Racerguy180


As much as I dislike GK, they should be the counter pick to daemons. I mean it's kinda their thing.

Daemons exist, they're the counterpick to mortals. So buy your thinking daemons don't deserve to exist either?

I don't want to see any faction pigeonholed into one specific thing. But they should be really good against daemons and ok at everything else. Daemons should be really good against mortals(non psyker) and ok at everything else.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 19:46:25


Post by: JNAProductions


Racerguy180 wrote:
As much as I dislike GK, they should be the counter pick to daemons. I mean it's kinda their thing.

Daemons exist, they're the counterpick to mortals. So buy your thinking daemons don't deserve to exist either?

I don't want to see any faction pigeonholed into one specific thing. But they should be really good against daemons and ok at everything else. Daemons should be really good against mortals(non psyker) and ok at everything else.
Except that makes matches rock-paper-scissors. And that's not fun for a game that lasts hours.

Ideally, GK would be good against Daemons because their preferred tactics are good against Daemons' preferred tactics, but bonuses like "Deal triple the number of mortal wounds with Smite" would be reserved for narrative play.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 19:56:04


Post by: Sasori


 JNAProductions wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
As much as I dislike GK, they should be the counter pick to daemons. I mean it's kinda their thing.

Daemons exist, they're the counterpick to mortals. So buy your thinking daemons don't deserve to exist either?

I don't want to see any faction pigeonholed into one specific thing. But they should be really good against daemons and ok at everything else. Daemons should be really good against mortals(non psyker) and ok at everything else.
Except that makes matches rock-paper-scissors. And that's not fun for a game that lasts hours.

Ideally, GK would be good against Daemons because their preferred tactics are good against Daemons' preferred tactics, but bonuses like "Deal triple the number of mortal wounds with Smite" would be reserved for narrative play.


Yeah, I agree. Stick that stuff in Crusade where it belongs.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 20:57:31


Post by: Arachnofiend


 JNAProductions wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
As much as I dislike GK, they should be the counter pick to daemons. I mean it's kinda their thing.

Daemons exist, they're the counterpick to mortals. So buy your thinking daemons don't deserve to exist either?

I don't want to see any faction pigeonholed into one specific thing. But they should be really good against daemons and ok at everything else. Daemons should be really good against mortals(non psyker) and ok at everything else.
Except that makes matches rock-paper-scissors. And that's not fun for a game that lasts hours.

Ideally, GK would be good against Daemons because their preferred tactics are good against Daemons' preferred tactics, but bonuses like "Deal triple the number of mortal wounds with Smite" would be reserved for narrative play.

A strong capability to circumvent invuln saves would be something GK could have that makes them strong against daemons without being specifically strong against daemons, for example. That ability could be tuned around how strong it is fighting other factions as well, rather than just "well we have to make this strong enough to auto-win against daemons or else GK auto-loses against everything else".


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 21:13:00


Post by: a_typical_hero


Psilencers used to ignore invul saves, but everybody took Psycannons because they were more useful in general and against a wider range of targets.

In an army starved for anti-tank, you really can't spend your ressources on "yet another S4 gun with a mediocre profile".

Why not just settle for (boring) Stratagems? Several factions have those against specific (sub)factions. In the current design paradigm, that would be the place to go for stuff like that. And Crusade of course.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 21:17:10


Post by: PenitentJake


So you mean like making every unit in the army psychic so that they all generate mortal wounds?

Yeah, GW should do tha...

Oh, wait.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 21:51:55


Post by: Blacksteel


Karol wrote:
The talk that DE are going to be OP was being done in autum last year,.


I'm curious where you were seeing that last fall because every discussion of it that I saw was intensely negative, even earlier this year, after some of the previews (Warriors getting 2 attacks is so dumb ... GW doesn't know what to do with us... etc. etc.) right up until the codex came out!

So I don't know where that was but I wouldn't use it as much of a precedent.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 21:58:24


Post by: BroodSpawn


Don't forget the few weeks after the DE codex release where there was a thread detailing that the DE needed more buffs and a (for some reason) a complete re-write because it wasn't going to win against Death Guard.

Yeah. That aged well.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/01 22:06:23


Post by: Racerguy180


How was anything I said about them being OP, really good is slightly better statistically than not.

They should just be a little better than everyone else against daemons and a little worse against everything else, as a result of them being specialized.

How is that Rock, paper, scissors? If you play pure daemons you should be scared of GK, or does that not make sense?



Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 07:16:34


Post by: a_typical_hero


It really doesn't when you blind pick your army and the whole army consists of these specialists.

It could make sense if GK were a single unit choice for Guard and vice versa with Daemons for CSM.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 07:29:02


Post by: Jidmah


Racerguy180 wrote:
How was anything I said about them being OP, really good is slightly better statistically than not.

They should just be a little better than everyone else against daemons and a little worse against everything else, as a result of them being specialized.

How is that Rock, paper, scissors? If you play pure daemons you should be scared of GK, or does that not make sense?



The issue is that this results in non-games. If the daemon player just automatically gets curb-stomped by GKs, what's the point? We had these things in the past and outside of a few lore-fans no one liked it - neither the GK or the Daemons.

These things belong in the crusade section of a book, not in regular games.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 08:11:06


Post by: Karol


PenitentJake wrote:
So you mean like making every unit in the army psychic so that they all generate mortal wounds?

Yeah, GW should do tha...

Oh, wait.


yeah. maybe not with 12" range doing 1MW. And remember being eveything psychic = your opponent gets to double dip on kill objective. The way 9th is designed, any army which can't limit giving out secondaries is bad. And it is not free either. Just look the price hikes GK got in the last , would have goten if the codex was out as it was suppose to, 23pts for naked strike. That is a brutal price, because for example Intercessors with a similar statline are really used in other marine armies.

But it would be nice, if not only characters were able to cast the PA psychic powers.

If the daemon player just automatically gets curb-stomped by GKs, what's the point

It didn't seem to be a problem when demon and chaos had an auto win vs GK in 8th, as long as they took demon ally. So why not have GK win vs them in this edition? I mean Belfegor practically kills the custodes army on his own, and I don't think chaos players are asking for him to be nerfed, because custodes players are going to be having a bad time playing vs him.


They should just be a little better than everyone else against daemons and a little worse against everything else, as a result of them being specialized.

But that is not what the lore says. GK have no problems with killing non demon stuff either. They purge regiments of IG, space marine chapters etc on regular basis. They are marines+. Everything marines are, plus each one is a librarian in training, with better gear or gear that dates back to the pre long night era. I would love to get guardian suits in the new codex, not my brotherhood that uses them, but they are golden age tech.


Who knows maybe there is going to be a scenario book for 1ksons/GK when their books are finaly out. If it made any of my models as killy and useful as a strife succubus, it would be really fun.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 08:46:46


Post by: BroodSpawn


Karol, begging that your GK's are as killy as a Strife succubus AND that they're better against Daemons is ludicrous


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 09:49:45


Post by: H.B.M.C.


It's weird that back when the Daemonhunter Codex came out, Grey Knights were most effective against Eldar.

S6 weapons that ignore invul saves. Just utter death to Eldar armies.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 10:15:47


Post by: tneva82


Racerguy180 wrote:

How is that Rock, paper, scissors? If you play pure daemons you should be scared of GK, or does that not make sense?


Daemons should have 50% win rate vs GK. So no more scared than vs IG, marines, orks, tyranids.

edit: Well slightly less than 50%. Draws are in the game.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 10:47:51


Post by: Jidmah


Karol wrote:
It didn't seem to be a problem when demon and chaos had an auto win vs GK in 8th, as long as they took demon ally. So why not have GK win vs them in this edition?

You clearly have never played against daemons in 8th. That stratagem didn't do gak for daemon players against GK who just drowned them with MW until all of them were dead. It was a failed attempt to even the scales at best.

Who knows maybe there is going to be a scenario book for 1ksons/GK when their books are finally out. If it made any of my models as killy and useful as a strife succubus, it would be really fun.

Let's hope that they are all as killy and useful as 8 point ork boyz. According to you that would be insanely powerful, right?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 11:03:25


Post by: BrianDavion


tneva82 wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:

How is that Rock, paper, scissors? If you play pure daemons you should be scared of GK, or does that not make sense?


Daemons should have 50% win rate vs GK. So no more scared than vs IG, marines, orks, tyranids.

edit: Well slightly less than 50%. Draws are in the game.


I think GKs can gave tools that are highly effective agaisnt deamons that deamons are still capable of putting up a fight with, and also are fairly solid vs other armies.

Here's some thoughts on the issue

1: - Make the Aegis be a 6 inch aura ability that increases invul saves by +1 (so a 4++ becomes a 5++ etc) this means deamons who are typcially a close range army are definatly going to be impacted by it. however i'll also be a pretty solid ability as it'll also give GKs an edge vs things like bladeguard, stormshield termies etc.

2- access to multiple psykic disiplines. proably the standard librarius disipline, a "generalist GK" disippline, and one only for their libbies and stuff., psykic powers needs to be how Grey Knights flex their muscles

3: this is a long term thing but IMHO the "1 kit, 3 or 4 differant units" has hurt Grey Knights and I'd like long term GW to give GKs more kits and to consolidate things just a smidge. (or baring that put out a purfifer kit that have a wider varity of good weapons)


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 16:16:19


Post by: waefre_1


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's weird that back when the Daemonhunter Codex came out, Grey Knights were most effective against Eldar.

S6 weapons that ignore invul saves. Just utter death to Eldar armies.

Maybe the Craftworlds aren't as free of Slaanesh's influence as they thought...

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
...they're kind of the jack of all trades, master of nun faction...

Guards! GUARDS!


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 17:10:33


Post by: AnomanderRake


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's weird that back when the Daemonhunter Codex came out, Grey Knights were most effective against Eldar.

S6 weapons that ignore invul saves. Just utter death to Eldar armies.


Utter death to Ulthwe Seer Council lists, maybe? I didn't think the Eldar had that many Invuls in 3rd/4th (no Wraithblades, no saves on any vehicles, none of the Aspects had an Invul before 8e...). Or do you mean utter death to DE? Under the vehicle rules back then the flickerfields didn't increase their overall survivability that much, it just gave them a save in the open they'd normally need to hug cover to get.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 17:38:11


Post by: Keramory


I'm not a fan of rules that flat out say "if you're facing x, you get y"

However for GK, I would be happy to see them have heavy weapons that can ignore invul instead of have AP. So it'll be somewhat effective against weaker demons (fluff), but a few other random units across other codexes as well.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 18:36:22


Post by: Galas


Grey Knights, to work, just need to be loyalist thousand sons. Psychic heavy elite space marines, thats enough of a niche no other force in the Imperium umbrella really can do. Nothing more. Leave anti daemon stuff to their fluff and maybe narrative relics and upgrades/rules.

Stuff like anti invul rules etc... are cool because they work agaisnt a ton of stuff but also greatly agaisnt demons. But "demons receive -1 to their invuls" would be bad game design.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 18:42:28


Post by: cavebear56


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's weird that back when the Daemonhunter Codex came out, Grey Knights were most effective against Eldar.

S6 weapons that ignore invul saves. Just utter death to Eldar armies.


Ah hah!

Proof that Eldar ARE daemons...always knew it.

Never trust an elf.

Especially one from space.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 19:15:01


Post by: Karol


Because GK are not just anti demon. They are anti sorcerer, anti psyker, and anti everything that lived, seen and survived demons, unsanctioned psykers or magics.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 19:16:45


Post by: Rihgu


It's usually Inquisition forces that do the cleanup. The Months of Shame where the GK directly got involved and fought with the Space Wolves was a notable exception that the GK were not pleased with, basically being forced to do it by the Inquisitor. They thought that their skills/expertise were being wasted and that they should instead be fighting daemons rather than literally anything but daemons.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 19:17:18


Post by: JNAProductions


Karol wrote:
Because GK are not just anti demon. They are anti sorcerer, anti psyker, and anti everything that lived, seen and survived demons, unsanctioned psykers or magics.
So what do you want for GK? How would you represent them on the tabletop?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 20:43:11


Post by: AnomanderRake


 JNAProductions wrote:
Karol wrote:
Because GK are not just anti demon. They are anti sorcerer, anti psyker, and anti everything that lived, seen and survived demons, unsanctioned psykers or magics.
So what do you want for GK? How would you represent them on the tabletop?


I had a homebrew Codex I wrote for the GK in 7th (part of a broader Inquisition overhaul) that I liked; I don't know where it is, but I remember trying to go back to the 5e-style unique psychic powers per GK unit to try and expand their capabilities and give them distinct roles rather than the usual seven slightly different force-weapons-and-psycannons teams GW usually writes. The coolest one was the Interceptors' power that slowed down enemies and forced flying monsters into hover mode so they could be charged (add the ability to take an interceptor-pack character in that unit and you get a little assassin squad that runs Daemon Princes to ground and chops them into little pieces). Oddly all the non-daemon-specific anti-daemon tech (penalizing Invulnerable saves and stuff that made them more effective at chopping through infantry hordes, killing monsters, and killing psykers) made them also really good at fighting Tyranids.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/02 22:29:12


Post by: BrianDavion


 AnomanderRake wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Karol wrote:
Because GK are not just anti demon. They are anti sorcerer, anti psyker, and anti everything that lived, seen and survived demons, unsanctioned psykers or magics.
So what do you want for GK? How would you represent them on the tabletop?


I had a homebrew Codex I wrote for the GK in 7th (part of a broader Inquisition overhaul) that I liked; I don't know where it is, but I remember trying to go back to the 5e-style unique psychic powers per GK unit to try and expand their capabilities and give them distinct roles rather than the usual seven slightly different force-weapons-and-psycannons teams GW usually writes. The coolest one was the Interceptors' power that slowed down enemies and forced flying monsters into hover mode so they could be charged (add the ability to take an interceptor-pack character in that unit and you get a little assassin squad that runs Daemon Princes to ground and chops them into little pieces). Oddly all the non-daemon-specific anti-daemon tech (penalizing Invulnerable saves and stuff that made them more effective at chopping through infantry hordes, killing monsters, and killing psykers) made them also really good at fighting Tyranids.


I agree that a return to the days of "each squad has a unique power" rather then just a generic list of powers would work nicely. maybe word it as "borther hood of psykers: squad may cast smite." and then give each squad a specific power that it "may activate if it has not cast any psykic powers"


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/03 03:02:28


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 AnomanderRake wrote:
Utter death to Ulthwe Seer Council lists, maybe? I didn't think the Eldar had that many Invuls in 3rd/4th (no Wraithblades, no saves on any vehicles, none of the Aspects had an Invul before 8e...). Or do you mean utter death to DE? Under the vehicle rules back then the flickerfields didn't increase their overall survivability that much, it just gave them a save in the open they'd normally need to hug cover to get.
No I mean Eldar. Multi-shot S6 weapons everywhere. They wound virtually all Eldar on 2+, their leaders die instantly to their attacks, and even their tanks aren't safe from the guns people take 2 of in every unit.

About the only thing that didn't care was the Wraithlord, because, well, the Wraithlord didn't care about much.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/03 03:54:21


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I am most exited about the new rules they will be giving to the various CSM legions. Although... it boggles my mind that there are so many books with rules supplements for CSM legions and yet, they are still ,,, kinda weak. lol

Its like there are CSM rules in Vigilance, faith and fury, for Fabious Bile in PA, the CSM codex 2 in 8th ed, and now in the upcoming book of fire. Wow, how many books are we going to need to play one army? lol And despite all those supplementary rules, CSM legions often struggles... lol I just don't get it.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/03 03:56:27


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I look forward to my Red Corsairs losing their 3 CP ability.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/03 03:57:12


Post by: Rihgu


I look forward to Charadon book 2 reprinting the Psychic Awakening legion rules verbatim!


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/03 05:54:09


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Rihgu wrote:
I look forward to Charadon book 2 reprinting the Psychic Awakening legion rules verbatim!
Heh. That's pretty funny actually.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/03 08:43:49


Post by: Jidmah


 AnomanderRake wrote:
I had a homebrew Codex I wrote for the GK in 7th (part of a broader Inquisition overhaul) that I liked; I don't know where it is, but I remember trying to go back to the 5e-style unique psychic powers per GK unit to try and expand their capabilities and give them distinct roles rather than the usual seven slightly different force-weapons-and-psycannons teams GW usually writes


Yeah, I never understood why they did away with those unit-specific powers, they really should get those back instead of cherry picking from disciplines.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/03 14:08:25


Post by: PenitentJake


 Jidmah wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
I had a homebrew Codex I wrote for the GK in 7th (part of a broader Inquisition overhaul) that I liked; I don't know where it is, but I remember trying to go back to the 5e-style unique psychic powers per GK unit to try and expand their capabilities and give them distinct roles rather than the usual seven slightly different force-weapons-and-psycannons teams GW usually writes


Yeah, I never understood why they did away with those unit-specific powers, they really should get those back instead of cherry picking from disciplines.


I haven't gone down the GK rabbit hole yet, so it's still a clean slate for me.

But when when sisters AoF went with specific acts for specific units? That took me out of the game for two editions.

If you want to ADD a unit specific power that a GK player can CHOOSE to take instead of a generic one, I'm right there with you- I think that's nice and fluffy. But if you want to say to every unit on the list: you used to be able to choose from 6 different things you could do, but now you only get one... Yeah, hard pass.

Like, see you in another two editions hard pass.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/03 14:44:50


Post by: Jidmah


I was more thinking along the lines of "instead of smite" similar to those warlock powers, possibly without cast restriction.

Currently when I face GK, it feels like half the army is limited to smiting stuff.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/03 14:53:34


Post by: PenitentJake


It's been forever since I looked at PA or the 8th GK dex- especially knowing 9th is on the way; and certainly, if all they're getting now is smite, then even a unit based bespoke power could be an upgrade. I am certainly far from a GK expert.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/03 14:55:50


Post by: Jidmah


They have two discplines to chose from (I think?) but since you can cast each power only once, and not every power is useful every turn, eventually they just resort to doing that.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 17:21:42


Post by: bullyboy


Oh dear, it looks like the Chaos rules are just consolidated rules from PA etc. Ouch.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 17:25:48


Post by: yukishiro1


Made me laugh out loud to see them hyping as a reason to buy their new $50 book that they'll include a compendium of out-of-date last-edition rules in it...instead of, you know, actually updating said rules to 9th edition. What you might actually want to pay money for.

GW is getting more and more shameless with these releases.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 17:31:59


Post by: bullyboy


yukishiro1 wrote:
Made me laugh out loud to see them hyping as a reason to buy their new $50 book that they'll include a compendium of out-of-date last-edition rules in it...instead of, you know, actually updating said rules to 9th edition. What you might actually want to pay money for.

GW is getting more and more shameless with these releases.


You're being disingenuous....







It's a $60 book


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 17:54:33


Post by: ArcaneHorror


I hope these rules are just meant to tide over CSM players until the codex, instead of being the actual 9th edition rules.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 17:55:00


Post by: Gadzilla666


yukishiro1 wrote:
Made me laugh out loud to see them hyping as a reason to buy their new $50 book that they'll include a compendium of out-of-date last-edition rules in it...instead of, you know, actually updating said rules to 9th edition. What you might actually want to pay money for.

GW is getting more and more shameless with these releases.

So the same formula they used with CSM "2": "Here's the rules you already paid for, but IN ONE BOOK! Please, pay us for the privilege of carrying around less books!" It's at least nice to see they're still treating CSM players with the same respect we've been given for the last 5 editions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I hope these rules are just meant to tide over CSM players until the codex, instead of being the actual 9th edition rules.

It's just the stuff from PA and Vigilus Ablaze. It's the stuff that was supposed to "tide us over" in 8th, but NOW IN 9TH! IN EXCITING NEW PACKAGING! BUY TWO!!! TELL YOUR FRIENDS!


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 18:07:27


Post by: Voss


xerxeskingofking wrote:
Its worth pointing out that GW's schedule is still recovering form the Wider Global Situation, and i think its very likely that the CSM codex was originally intended to be released July or August, but got pushed back/other releases were given priority.
.


That doesn't seem likely. If anything, this book is delayed. There isn't any need to collate all the various out-of-date material if the Codex is just around the corner.
This really suggests that codex CSM is a long way off yet.


What's really surprising (to me, anyway) is that they're wrapping this non-entity of a campaign up with a grand total of two books (of dross and filler) for a handful of factions.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 18:19:02


Post by: yukishiro1


Voss wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
Its worth pointing out that GW's schedule is still recovering form the Wider Global Situation, and i think its very likely that the CSM codex was originally intended to be released July or August, but got pushed back/other releases were given priority.
.


That doesn't seem likely. If anything, this book is delayed. There isn't any need to collate all the various out-of-date material if the Codex is just around the corner.
This really suggests that codex CSM is a long way off yet.


What's really surprising (to me, anyway) is that they're wrapping this non-entity of a campaign up with a grand total of two books (of dross and filler) for a handful of factions.


Yeah, but the next non-entity is already announced, so it's not like it's really over. They're just changing the name to try to make people think it's something new.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 18:19:11


Post by: Da Boss


It probably didn't sell well because it was crap.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 18:27:29


Post by: Eldarsif


What annoys me about these campaign books is that they contain a narrative campaign and minimal crusade related rules, but then release another sidebook specifically for crusade alongside it. I might consider the price of entry a bit nicer to swallow if the campaign book also contained the crusade book contents.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 18:35:46


Post by: Voss


 Eldarsif wrote:
What annoys me about these campaign books is that they contain a narrative campaign and minimal crusade related rules, but then release another sidebook specifically for crusade alongside it. I might consider the price of entry a bit nicer to swallow if the campaign book also contained the crusade book contents.


I suspect that's a lack of confidence in how their '3 ways to play' really sells to people.
They don't have faith that mixed products (outside the codex line) will sell to 'narrative' or 'matched' players, so they market to them individually as if there's no overlap between them.
Or they expect people will pay twice. Either way they're misreading the market.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 20:22:24


Post by: xeen


I try not to be too negative but this treatment of CSM is utter horse s**t. Why update these guys in a campaign book for a codex which will be obsolete this time next year at the most. I am not buying this. Maybe with an FAQ to add two wounds to the proper units this would be worthwhile. Which would not be that hard. But a reprint of existing rules that will most likely be changed within a year (probably much less). No thank you.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 20:44:24


Post by: macluvin


Hmm... either this is a woefully inadequate patch designed to sate chaos space marine players until the codex releases way the heck later or they are trying to trick us into buying 2 codices in less than 2 years like they did the loyalist marine players... either way that’s pretty dirty.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 20:53:23


Post by: BrianDavion


 xeen wrote:
I try not to be too negative but this treatment of CSM is utter horse s**t. Why update these guys in a campaign book for a codex which will be obsolete this time next year at the most. I am not buying this. Maybe with an FAQ to add two wounds to the proper units this would be worthwhile. Which would not be that hard. But a reprint of existing rules that will most likely be changed within a year (probably much less). No thank you.


remember that the marine supplements for 8.5 haven't been replaced yet so it's possiable GW doesn't plan to replacement SUPPLEMENTS on a "edition basis"


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 21:21:12


Post by: Racerguy180


That would be a good thing.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 21:30:24


Post by: Marshal Loss


On one hand, I think this means that the CSM book is a while away, which could indicate great things for us. The EC dream is still alive.

On the other hand, what an absolute joke of a release and a waste of paper. Par for the course with relation to their treatment of CSM players.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 21:32:26


Post by: BrianDavion


Racerguy180 wrote:
That would be a good thing.


I agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
On one hand, I think this means that the CSM book is a while away, which could indicate great things for us. The EC dream is still alive.

On the other hand, what an absolute joke of a release and a waste of paper. Par for the course with relation to their treatment of CSM players.


the fault lies more in the CSM CODEX then the supplementry material. I mean.... the phrase "polishing a turd" comes to mind,


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 21:57:53


Post by: yukishiro1


CSM players wish their turd of a Codex could be described as "polished."


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 22:27:10


Post by: Marshal Loss


BrianDavion wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
On one hand, I think this means that the CSM book is a while away, which could indicate great things for us. The EC dream is still alive.

On the other hand, what an absolute joke of a release and a waste of paper. Par for the course with relation to their treatment of CSM players.


the fault lies more in the CSM CODEX then the supplementry material. I mean.... the phrase "polishing a turd" comes to mind,


Which is precisely why repackaging and selling said supplementary material (the oldest of which is barely 2 years old) at a $60 USD premium with no substantive alterations when they're not even prepared to give us a 2W holdover FAQ is a waste of everybody's time.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 22:45:04


Post by: AngryAngel80


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Made me laugh out loud to see them hyping as a reason to buy their new $50 book that they'll include a compendium of out-of-date last-edition rules in it...instead of, you know, actually updating said rules to 9th edition. What you might actually want to pay money for.

GW is getting more and more shameless with these releases.

So the same formula they used with CSM "2": "Here's the rules you already paid for, but IN ONE BOOK! Please, pay us for the privilege of carrying around less books!" It's at least nice to see they're still treating CSM players with the same respect we've been given for the last 5 editions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I hope these rules are just meant to tide over CSM players until the codex, instead of being the actual 9th edition rules.

It's just the stuff from PA and Vigilus Ablaze. It's the stuff that was supposed to "tide us over" in 8th, but NOW IN 9TH! IN EXCITING NEW PACKAGING! BUY TWO!!! TELL YOUR FRIENDS!


Somehow these legends managed to do something I'd think impossible. They took my already beyond low expectations and made them appear lofty by comparison to the reality of it all. Amazing GW, you deserve a toast, Cheers.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 22:46:38


Post by: H.B.M.C.


yukishiro1 wrote:
Made me laugh out loud to see them hyping as a reason to buy their new $50 book that they'll include a compendium of out-of-date last-edition rules in it...instead of, you know, actually updating said rules to 9th edition. What you might actually want to pay money for.

GW is getting more and more shameless with these releases.
And people are still going to buy the Limited Edition version...


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 22:54:22


Post by: AngryAngel80


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Made me laugh out loud to see them hyping as a reason to buy their new $50 book that they'll include a compendium of out-of-date last-edition rules in it...instead of, you know, actually updating said rules to 9th edition. What you might actually want to pay money for.

GW is getting more and more shameless with these releases.
And people are still going to buy the Limited Edition version...


It's limited, that means it's better. We gotta have it before its burned and churned away in a few months. So of course we gots to have it.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 23:31:40


Post by: 2x210


Would it have been that hard to add a wound to Chaos Marines? Even with 2 wounds we still die like guardsmen but at least would feel like a fight with 2 wounds.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 23:42:01


Post by: Daedalus81


yukishiro1 wrote:
Made me laugh out loud to see them hyping as a reason to buy their new $50 book that they'll include a compendium of out-of-date last-edition rules in it...instead of, you know, actually updating said rules to 9th edition. What you might actually want to pay money for.

GW is getting more and more shameless with these releases.


I should have expected they wouldn't be able to put enough rules into the book to make a difference and that copy pasta was the result. Still ridiculously disappointing. Another hard pass now.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/04 23:50:00


Post by: Gert


The AoS "campaign" books seem to be much better than 40k. They have good rules and narrative content that isn't invalidated super fast. There are dumb things like the Lumineth update coming only a few months after the first Battletome and it is quite funny that Broken Realms: Kragnos came out like a week ago and Kragnos is going to be in the new Orruk Warclans book that'll be out in a couple of months but even still I've considered getting all of the BR books just for the large amount of Cities of Sigmar stuff they've added. They actually add ways to play armies that provide narrative choices while also not being too good or bad.
I only got the Vigilus books because my armies were rubbish without them, same with the PA books and even then they were pretty awful.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 02:24:54


Post by: ArcaneHorror


Gadzilla666 wrote:It's just the stuff from PA and Vigilus Ablaze. It's the stuff that was supposed to "tide us over" in 8th, but NOW IN 9TH! IN EXCITING NEW PACKAGING! BUY TWO!!! TELL YOUR FRIENDS!


I'm hoping that this delay of the codex means that something big is coming along, with lots of model releases.

Is this going to be the book that has Be'lakor's rules?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 03:10:37


Post by: Gadzilla666


Daedalus81 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Made me laugh out loud to see them hyping as a reason to buy their new $50 book that they'll include a compendium of out-of-date last-edition rules in it...instead of, you know, actually updating said rules to 9th edition. What you might actually want to pay money for.

GW is getting more and more shameless with these releases.


I should have expected they wouldn't be able to put enough rules into the book to make a difference and that copy pasta was the result. Still ridiculously disappointing. Another hard pass now.

Which is why they shouldn't have wasted the paper and ink. Unless "formatted for the new edition" means significant changes to the strategems and such. I seriously doubt that happening. Remember the Fallen "update" in WD?

ArcaneHorror wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:It's just the stuff from PA and Vigilus Ablaze. It's the stuff that was supposed to "tide us over" in 8th, but NOW IN 9TH! IN EXCITING NEW PACKAGING! BUY TWO!!! TELL YOUR FRIENDS!


I'm hoping that this delay of the codex means that something big is coming along, with lots of model releases.

Is this going to be the book that has Be'lakor's rules?

Yes, if $60 sounds like a good value for ONE DATASHEET......


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 03:50:37


Post by: BrianDavion


I view this as more of a logistics thing for GW, it allows them to retire F&F as with this book all the rules will now be updated elsewhere.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 04:12:53


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I think the better way to retire that book would be to release a new Chaos Codex.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 04:29:03


Post by: BrianDavion


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think the better way to retire that book would be to release a new Chaos Codex.


proably, but maybe chaos is getting a nice juicy splash release.

one can hope..


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 04:48:41


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Or a plastic Huron Blackheart and a nice pat on the back.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 04:54:40


Post by: Arachnofiend


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:It's just the stuff from PA and Vigilus Ablaze. It's the stuff that was supposed to "tide us over" in 8th, but NOW IN 9TH! IN EXCITING NEW PACKAGING! BUY TWO!!! TELL YOUR FRIENDS!


I'm hoping that this delay of the codex means that something big is coming along, with lots of model releases.

I wouldn't bank on it; it's certainly possible, but CSM already had a big release in 8th when the codex reprint came out.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 05:37:04


Post by: Marshal Loss


 Arachnofiend wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:It's just the stuff from PA and Vigilus Ablaze. It's the stuff that was supposed to "tide us over" in 8th, but NOW IN 9TH! IN EXCITING NEW PACKAGING! BUY TWO!!! TELL YOUR FRIENDS!


I'm hoping that this delay of the codex means that something big is coming along, with lots of model releases.

I wouldn't bank on it; it's certainly possible, but CSM already had a big release in 8th when the codex reprint came out.


Given how many releases are split up into two waves over a short period of time in the recent past (e.g. Lumineth x2, Hedonites x2, Sisters x2, Primaris x2), and with some substantial holes in the CSM range (e.g. a number of finecast characters, old Possessed, etc), that doesn't mean as much as it once did.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 05:37:47


Post by: BrianDavion


 Arachnofiend wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:It's just the stuff from PA and Vigilus Ablaze. It's the stuff that was supposed to "tide us over" in 8th, but NOW IN 9TH! IN EXCITING NEW PACKAGING! BUY TWO!!! TELL YOUR FRIENDS!


I'm hoping that this delay of the codex means that something big is coming along, with lots of model releases.

I wouldn't bank on it; it's certainly possible, but CSM already had a big release in 8th when the codex reprint came out.


maybe on the other hand a lot of the codices that saw releases during 8th edition have gotten a follow up wave. I could def see CSMs getting that.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 07:57:36


Post by: a_typical_hero


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Which is why they shouldn't have wasted the paper and ink. Unless "formatted for the new edition" means significant changes to the strategems and such. I seriously doubt that happening. Remember the Fallen "update" in WD?

Reading the text again today, I feel the consolidation is the selling point here and we should not expect any meaningful changes.

The book also collates a range of existing rules...With all of these rules in one place


"formatted for the current edition" actually means the layout/presentation, I believe :(


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 08:59:00


Post by: Spoletta


 Marshal Loss wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:It's just the stuff from PA and Vigilus Ablaze. It's the stuff that was supposed to "tide us over" in 8th, but NOW IN 9TH! IN EXCITING NEW PACKAGING! BUY TWO!!! TELL YOUR FRIENDS!


I'm hoping that this delay of the codex means that something big is coming along, with lots of model releases.

I wouldn't bank on it; it's certainly possible, but CSM already had a big release in 8th when the codex reprint came out.


Given how many releases are split up into two waves over a short period of time in the recent past (e.g. Lumineth x2, Hedonites x2, Sisters x2, Primaris x2), and with some substantial holes in the CSM range (e.g. a number of finecast characters, old Possessed, etc), that doesn't mean as much as it once did.


GW doesn't see holes in the range as an issue.

I mean, loyal marines still have metal models for very popular characters and GW never cared about that. If loyal marines don't get something, you can be sure that the spiky cousins don't get that either.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 09:08:13


Post by: Not Online!!!


a_typical_hero wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Which is why they shouldn't have wasted the paper and ink. Unless "formatted for the new edition" means significant changes to the strategems and such. I seriously doubt that happening. Remember the Fallen "update" in WD?

Reading the text again today, I feel the consolidation is the selling point here and we should not expect any meaningful changes.

The book also collates a range of existing rules...With all of these rules in one place


"formatted for the current edition" actually means the layout/presentation, I believe :(



Which would make this into preorder dlc of content you already had acess to.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 10:58:59


Post by: Marshal Loss


Spoletta wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:It's just the stuff from PA and Vigilus Ablaze. It's the stuff that was supposed to "tide us over" in 8th, but NOW IN 9TH! IN EXCITING NEW PACKAGING! BUY TWO!!! TELL YOUR FRIENDS!


I'm hoping that this delay of the codex means that something big is coming along, with lots of model releases.

I wouldn't bank on it; it's certainly possible, but CSM already had a big release in 8th when the codex reprint came out.


Given how many releases are split up into two waves over a short period of time in the recent past (e.g. Lumineth x2, Hedonites x2, Sisters x2, Primaris x2), and with some substantial holes in the CSM range (e.g. a number of finecast characters, old Possessed, etc), that doesn't mean as much as it once did.


GW doesn't see holes in the range as an issue.

I mean, loyal marines still have metal models for very popular characters and GW never cared about that. If loyal marines don't get something, you can be sure that the spiky cousins don't get that either.


Doesn't change a thing I said. Comparing loyalist marines to anybody is foolish just because of the sheer number of models they have, & a cursory glance at e.g. the number of finecast/metal CSM characters removed over the last 5-6 years (Kharn, Ahriman, Abaddon, Typhus, Fabius, DA, Sorcerer, etc) shows a clear trend.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 11:12:16


Post by: Gadzilla666


They could at least give us some new Berzerkers, Possessed, and Noise Marines. Those guys haven't aged well, and Noise Marines aren't even an actual kit, but a resin upgrade sprue.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 11:21:16


Post by: Catulle


 Xenomancers wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Don't you play Ultramarines?

Played blue hands - Ultramarines have a god awful chapter tactic...

 Xenomancers wrote:
First of all I will just point out. I play Ultramarines no matter what. I'm not gonna play white scars cause they have been rules. Because I have honor.

Decided winning was better than honour, hmm?



Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 11:25:52


Post by: Marshal Loss


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
They could at least give us some new Berzerkers, Possessed, and Noise Marines. Those guys haven't aged well, and Noise Marines aren't even an actual kit, but a resin upgrade sprue.


Possessed I am optimistic for, if we get a second wave; Jes Goodwin said they wanted to do smaller possessed on the GW YT when they released the GPs. Hopefully that's code for "we've already done them/are doing them". Fingers crossed anyway, as a Possessed kit these days would be spectacular.

Cult units I only expect when their corresponding codex is released.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 11:44:17


Post by: Karol


I am going to have such a laugh, if the 1ksons and GK codex end up being, old codex+PA+FAQ changes-nerfs and removal of some rules, like superhuman physilogy for non primaris etc.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 15:50:53


Post by: Daedalus81


Karol wrote:
I am going to have such a laugh, if the 1ksons and GK codex end up being, old codex+PA+FAQ changes-nerfs and removal of some rules, like superhuman physilogy for non primaris etc.


That's excessively cynical.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 16:51:43


Post by: PenitentJake


Karol wrote:
I am going to have such a laugh, if the 1ksons and GK codex end up being, old codex+PA+FAQ changes-nerfs and removal of some rules, like superhuman physilogy for non primaris etc.


Well there are a few things we know:

- Yes, all of the material from the old dexes + PAs is likely to be there; it will be updated with the new weapon profiles and stat lines
- Both will have Crusade Content added
- Strats for both will be categorized; unit specific strats will be reduced, and the list of strats likely expanded
- GW will look to amp up the things about the army that make it distinct
- The books should fit and balance better with other 9th ed books

Pre-nerf Drukhari and speculations about some OP material in Admech have minimized the perception that 9th ed books are balanced, but we did see greater representation from several factions in top spots than previously.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/05 18:14:52


Post by: Dysartes


I imagine both books will also see the missing additional Wound crop up where appropriate, too.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 01:40:54


Post by: Argive


I dread to think the kind of fudging up the good ol GW is going to do with the chaos rules in this book... There is so much going on with chaos I wonder what they going to fuge up the most..


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 02:01:18


Post by: Jarms48


This book has some rumoured Ork rules in it right? I imagine it may contain rules for a pure beast-snagga force, with it's restriction being no other Orks being able to be taken.

It will be highly competitive and will incentivise Ork players to buy the new Ork kits.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 02:05:05


Post by: yukishiro1


That would show a level of coordination and forethought well above GW's typical capabilities.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 08:07:51


Post by: macluvin


 Argive wrote:
I dread to think the kind of fudging up the good ol GW is going to do with the chaos rules in this book... There is so much going on with chaos I wonder what they going to fuge up the most..


Easy. Not put a 9th edition codex in there... no 2W chaos space marines, no functioning rules, the same way they fethed 40k up for chaos for the past few years because that is all that will be in the book is the past 2 years of chaos rules, and some patch that gives what at best would be fun fluffy rules to add to a functioning army, sans a functioning army of course.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 08:20:47


Post by: Jidmah


Jarms48 wrote:This book has some rumoured Ork rules in it right? I imagine it may contain rules for a pure beast-snagga force, with it's restriction being no other Orks being able to be taken.

It will be highly competitive and will incentivise Ork players to buy the new Ork kits.

You mean a better incentive that making awesome looking models that people have been asking about for years AND not giving us the codex unless you buy them?

yukishiro1 wrote:That would show a level of coordination and forethought well above GW's typical capabilities.

Yeah, considering how terrible the DG rules from the book of rust are and that the main competitive gain from it was a bug, I'm not expecting high quality content.

If they expand on the obolis campaign thing I might be getting it, but definitely not for four pages of DLC rules that I can just copy manually with pen and paper.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 09:25:37


Post by: kirotheavenger


Have 9th codexes reduced unit specific strats?
I felt like there are a lot more unit specific strats in my Blood Angels now.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 11:14:31


Post by: Slipspace


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Have 9th codexes reduced unit specific strats?
I felt like there are a lot more unit specific strats in my Blood Angels now.


I think you're probably right. A lot of the "fights twice" strats now seem to be unit specific rather than generic. There are also quite a few unit-specific ones for Necrons that didn't exist before. Tomb Blades and Lychguard got new unit-specific srats, for example.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 12:13:50


Post by: Jidmah


Same for DG, every daemon engine got a unit-specific stratagem as well as chaos spawns, pox walkers have kept two with slightly changed rules, helbrute got to keep one of theirs.
There also is a plague marine specific one, but unit-locking it seems to be for future-proofing only, as no other unit has plague knives.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 16:09:11


Post by: EightFoldPath


Jarms48 wrote:
This book has some rumoured Ork rules in it right? I imagine it may contain rules for a pure beast-snagga force, with it's restriction being no other Orks being able to be taken.

It will be highly competitive and will incentivise Ork players to buy the new Ork kits.

No not this book.

I think you are thinking of the early and limited edition Ork codex that will come in the beast snagga box?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 23:38:45


Post by: BrianDavion


EightFoldPath wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
This book has some rumoured Ork rules in it right? I imagine it may contain rules for a pure beast-snagga force, with it's restriction being no other Orks being able to be taken.

It will be highly competitive and will incentivise Ork players to buy the new Ork kits.

No not this book.

I think you are thinking of the early and limited edition Ork codex that will come in the beast snagga box?



are we sure it's an ORK codex then and not that beastsanggza are a new army?

because the only time an actual new CODEX came out in an army box was sisters


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 23:40:54


Post by: Gert


I think GW has been pretty clear that the Beastsnaggaz are a new addition to Orks. Lumineth also got their first Battletome in an Army Box.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 23:47:30


Post by: BrianDavion


 Gert wrote:
I think GW has been pretty clear that the Beastsnaggaz are a new addition to Orks. Lumineth also got their first Battletome in an Army Box.



yeah just was curious, as back in 8th when "soup" was the order of the day you saw a lot of people expressing envy that chaos and Imperium (especially Imperium) had so many ingrediants and xenos did not. but yeah, you're proably right. as I notice Ork releases seem to be done in "flavours" last time was speed freaks, now it's beast snaggza.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/06 23:59:24


Post by: Gert


Thats the kind of thing I want to see for Xenos factions now, specific sub-cultures expanded into a larger presence like Speed Freaks and Beastsnaggaz(Feral Orks sort of), not brand new armies comprised of like 4 units *cough*Harlequins*cough*.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/09 14:53:08


Post by: Sasori


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/09/have-your-cake-and-eat-it-with-belakors-disciples-the-dark-masters-mortal-and-daemonic-legion/

This is looking pretty cool, and may actually end up being a good army of renown. If the only restriction is you have to cycle through Daemon units.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/09 15:02:24


Post by: Daedalus81


 Sasori wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/09/have-your-cake-and-eat-it-with-belakors-disciples-the-dark-masters-mortal-and-daemonic-legion/

This is looking pretty cool, and may actually end up being a good army of renown. If the only restriction is you have to cycle through Daemon units.


For sure. Slaanesh GD, Nurglings, Horrors, and...ummm...flesh hounds, I guess? I'm sure someone will try four GDs since they'll all be -1 to hit and no rerolls.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/09 15:27:33


Post by: Abaddon303


This seems really strong. Can take daemons to fill the lacklustre troops slot for CSM armies, nurglings and horrors. A Khorne hq with crimson crown to help out shooty Daemon engines like decimators or forgefiends.
The strat can let a bloodletter bomb ignore screens which is pretty cool too. Looking forward to seeing the rules in detail


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/09 16:34:52


Post by: Tamwulf


Abaddon303 wrote:
This seems really strong. Can take daemons to fill the lacklustre troops slot for CSM armies, nurglings and horrors. A Khorne hq with crimson crown to help out shooty Daemon engines like decimators or forgefiends.
The strat can let a bloodletter bomb ignore screens which is pretty cool too. Looking forward to seeing the rules in detail


Never thought I'd see the day that Daemons would fill in for Chaos Space Marine troops. That's more of a side-grade then an upgrade.

This book scares me a little bit. In the past, when GW has released an "update" to an army in a PA book, or White Dwarf, whatever, the main codex wasn't updated for a long, long time. The pessimist in me sees this book updating Daemons and Chaos Space Marines because we won't see a new Codex for either army for a year or more. Both coming out late 9th edition so when 10th edition rolls out, whatever strengths will be handicapped by new rules.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/09 17:53:12


Post by: Nightlord1987


Hopefully the Belakor army lost is exactly what I've been looking for, in terms of my available collection. I got rid of all my CSM stuff when they were resized in Shadowspear, but kept the Cultists, Random HQ models, and Daemon Engines for just in case. Combined with my Nurgle Daemon stuff, and handful of Daemon Princes, it just might work.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/09 20:20:43


Post by: Arachnofiend


The Locus of Shadows is a huge upgrade over the Tzeentch locus, will definitely make Exalted LoC's even harder to shift. Do we know if Belakor has to lead his army of renown or can you make the detachment without him?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/09 21:04:24


Post by: Aenar


 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Locus of Shadows is a huge upgrade over the Tzeentch locus, will definitely make Exalted LoC's even harder to shift. Do we know if Belakor has to lead his army of renown or can you make the detachment without him?

Rumours have it that this army of renown can't include any major (EDIT: greater) daemons (like a LoC).
Influencers received their copies earlier this week so leaks happened already.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/09 21:40:37


Post by: Arachnofiend


Ah, that's unfortunate. I'm much less excited to field a daemon army that doesn't have a Lord of Change in it, it's always been my favorite model in that book and I'd like to milk the time that it's actually good.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/09 21:45:27


Post by: solkan


Well, damn it. It looks like GW might actually have made Bel'akor worth fielding, at least if you're a fan of skittles like I am. I suppose it'll depend on the fine details, but now I'm trying to figure out how big of a pedestal to put my pewter Bel'akor model on.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 00:38:35


Post by: Daedalus81


 Aenar wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Locus of Shadows is a huge upgrade over the Tzeentch locus, will definitely make Exalted LoC's even harder to shift. Do we know if Belakor has to lead his army of renown or can you make the detachment without him?

Rumours have it that this army of renown can't include any major daemons (like a LoC).
Influencers received their copies earlier this week so leaks happened already.


That would probably be a wise choice so good on them if they did that.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 03:23:38


Post by: Sasori


 Aenar wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
The Locus of Shadows is a huge upgrade over the Tzeentch locus, will definitely make Exalted LoC's even harder to shift. Do we know if Belakor has to lead his army of renown or can you make the detachment without him?

Rumours have it that this army of renown can't include any major daemons (like a LoC).
Influencers received their copies earlier this week so leaks happened already.


oof, no greater Daemons would be a significant blow.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 05:32:09


Post by: Aenar


Definitely, but to be fair the armies of renown we've seen so far have been thematic and not very competitive.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 06:32:54


Post by: mrFickle


So who’s taking bets that the next CSM codex and Demons codex are merged into a single codex?

Or more likely if you want to run DOB then you will need to buy all 3 books


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 06:42:41


Post by: Racerguy180


mrFickle wrote:
So who’s taking bets that the next CSM codex and Demons codex are merged into a single codex?

Or more likely if you want to run DOB then you will need to buy all 3 books


Duh, of course they're gonna "make" you buy all 3. That's kinda their thing.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 06:43:42


Post by: BrianDavion


mrFickle wrote:
So who’s taking bets that the next CSM codex and Demons codex are merged into a single codex?

Or more likely if you want to run DOB then you will need to buy all 3 books


ugh I HOPE they don't merge the books, then we'd never see a new CSM again


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 09:26:54


Post by: Matt.Kingsley


Goonhammer's review of Be'lakor and his disciples is out.
EDIT: And here's the one for Sisters and AdMech.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 10:12:49


Post by: Aenar


 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Goonhammer's review of Be'lakor and his disciples is out.
EDIT: And here's the one for Sisters and AdMech.

The rumour was correct.

From the Goonhammer article:
As with the other armies of renown, the Disciples of Be’lakor carry some heavy restrictions. For one, Be’lakor has to be your Warlord and the army can’t include any other named characters, daemon princes, greater daemons, daemon engines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Chaos Knights, Traitor Titans, Plague Marines, or any of the Cult troops (e.g. Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.). Additionally your army can’t include a second daemon unit from the same Chaos God until you’ve added at least one unit from each god, and likewise you can’t have your third until you have two from each god, and so on, meaning you have to maintain some kind of balance.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 10:19:49


Post by: Jidmah


So, there is not even a campaign in this one?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 10:50:06


Post by: BrianDavion


So spoilers for how the book ends, (taken from https://spruesandbrews.com/ ) no idea if it's accurate but ASSUMING they're not just yanking our chain this is pretty big (proably the most meaningful end to a campaign since the fall of Cadia)

Spoiler:
"After expecting the Imperium to get a last minute victory, the forces of Chaos actually win this one!

Be’lakor is currently working alongside Abaddon, but neither of them trust each other – the clearly have their own agendas and are only currently allied as it is convenient. Be’lakor’s master plan is to steal away the planet of Kolossi, the homeworld of House Raven. He manages to achieve this, pulling the entire planet into the warp and it later appearing elsewhere in the galaxy as a shadowy ghost of a planet hosting Word Bearers, the Alpha Legion and some interesting things that might point to future releases such as slave soldiers , Mutated Cyborgs and the deformed knights calling themselves House Korvax – With Be’lakor stealing away a Knight Household’s planet I do wonder if we might see more chaotic mutated daemonic Knights in the future…

Typhus also completes his objective, corrupting Metallica with a digital virus that is slowly turning it to Chaos. Every time the Mechanicum think they have cleared it from the planet it pops up again infecting everything on the Forge World – because of this Metallica is essentially dead, with all of it’s survivors dedicated to trying to eradicate this reappearing virus. We said it during our Book of Rust review, but I reckon this is perhaps leading to the reveal of the Dark Mechanicum for 40k

We also see some conflict in the Imperium with Vahl almost coming to blows with the Ultramarines due to her wanting to eradicate any Imperial defenders who have been in contact with the forces of chaos. She pulls rank and calls Exterminatus on any questionable worlds – I guess she is a High Lord after all! But certainly raises questions if the post-human Astartes are showing more compassion for the survivors of the war than her…


So yeah the IoM just lost a major forge world and Knight world. wow..




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
So, there is not even a campaign in this one?


nah there is but you know how these reviews work they did to fixate on the stuff they can take into tournies.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 11:02:09


Post by: StrayIight


 Jidmah wrote:
So, there is not even a campaign in this one?


Goonhammer have been reviewing the unit specific rules content, and the campaign content, in separate articles of late. Generally they'll get the unit/army rules stuff out first, and the rest will be released at a slightly later date.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 11:27:57


Post by: Jidmah


Ah, just watched the sprews and brews review - from what it looks like 3 pages of reprinted campaign rules and 7 pages of new campaign content, including 3 legendary missions.

I love that stuff, but not at that price tag. Time to break out the razor blade and get those pages from some non-crusade player.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 11:46:53


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


Oh man, I'm excited to hear that OoOML are getting some legitimate bumps from this book. Seems like it's mostly contained to strategems so they're gonna be a really CP-intensive Order (time to start putting an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor in my lists), but they've got way more flavour to actually make them a viable alternative to the more specialized Orders.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 12:01:44


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Aenar wrote:
From the Goonhammer article:
As with the other armies of renown, the Disciples of Be’lakor carry some heavy restrictions. For one, Be’lakor has to be your Warlord and the army can’t include any other named characters, daemon princes, greater daemons, daemon engines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Chaos Knights, Traitor Titans, Plague Marines, or any of the Cult troops (e.g. Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.). Additionally your army can’t include a second daemon unit from the same Chaos God until you’ve added at least one unit from each god, and likewise you can’t have your third until you have two from each god, and so on, meaning you have to maintain some kind of balance.
Why no Cult Troops?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 12:39:22


Post by: ERJAK


I gotta say, the OoML stuff looks pretty garbage all things said.

The warlord traits are pretty terrible.(Saintly example and Saint Katherine's blessing are straight up stupid. Especially considering SKB requires you to take the worst Sacred rite and only bumps it to a 5+. The +2S +2 attack one is clearly designed around the fighty canoness that frankly is more of a gimmick than anything.) The relics except for the sword are pretty bad, though the sword is reasonably strong. Certainly better than Blade of Admonition. Especially considering it's replacing a powerword rather than a Blessed Blade.

The stratagems are more weird than effective. The two fighty-ones are incredibly mediocre in an army that doesn't really do combat. Pious Machine Spirit is laughable, the Castigator and Immolator are sad jokes and the Exorcist already costs 2CP to shoot it at all. It's chasing good CP after bad units.

Rejoice the fallen will, very occasionally, allow 2 multimeltas or 2 heavy bolters in either a battle sister or retributor squad to shoot in your opponents turn for 2CP. Far too restrictive for how weak the effect is.

Martyr's Pyre doesn't make any sense. It only really functions if a flamer unit is in melee with something during your shooting phase which...anything infantry with a flamer that gets charged is not going to survive that long. The self destruct clause is irrelevant.

Death before disgrace is mediocre. Random obsec is fine but not exactly world changing.

A Martyr's duty should have been automatic. On a 4+. It's going to be worth it's CP maybe once every 2 or 3 games.

Exemplar of the Order is a meme.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 12:41:57


Post by: Marshal Loss


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
From the Goonhammer article:
As with the other armies of renown, the Disciples of Be’lakor carry some heavy restrictions. For one, Be’lakor has to be your Warlord and the army can’t include any other named characters, daemon princes, greater daemons, daemon engines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Chaos Knights, Traitor Titans, Plague Marines, or any of the Cult troops (e.g. Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.). Additionally your army can’t include a second daemon unit from the same Chaos God until you’ve added at least one unit from each god, and likewise you can’t have your third until you have two from each god, and so on, meaning you have to maintain some kind of balance.
Why no Cult Troops?


More interesting for me is that World Eaters & Emperor's Children are listed alongside the TS & DG (when, by excluding cult units/SCs both the WEs and EC have nothing anyway, and all legions lose their specific stratagems regardless). Might be future proofing? Or possibly GW just being thorough in making the army of renown "undivided". Still, an EC fan can dream.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 13:30:16


Post by: Iracundus


BrianDavion wrote:
So spoilers for how the book ends, (taken from https://spruesandbrews.com/ ) no idea if it's accurate but ASSUMING they're not just yanking our chain this is pretty big (proably the most meaningful end to a campaign since the fall of Cadia)

Spoiler:
"After expecting the Imperium to get a last minute victory, the forces of Chaos actually win this one!

Be’lakor is currently working alongside Abaddon, but neither of them trust each other – the clearly have their own agendas and are only currently allied as it is convenient. Be’lakor’s master plan is to steal away the planet of Kolossi, the homeworld of House Raven. He manages to achieve this, pulling the entire planet into the warp and it later appearing elsewhere in the galaxy as a shadowy ghost of a planet hosting Word Bearers, the Alpha Legion and some interesting things that might point to future releases such as slave soldiers , Mutated Cyborgs and the deformed knights calling themselves House Korvax – With Be’lakor stealing away a Knight Household’s planet I do wonder if we might see more chaotic mutated daemonic Knights in the future…

Typhus also completes his objective, corrupting Metallica with a digital virus that is slowly turning it to Chaos. Every time the Mechanicum think they have cleared it from the planet it pops up again infecting everything on the Forge World – because of this Metallica is essentially dead, with all of it’s survivors dedicated to trying to eradicate this reappearing virus. We said it during our Book of Rust review, but I reckon this is perhaps leading to the reveal of the Dark Mechanicum for 40k

We also see some conflict in the Imperium with Vahl almost coming to blows with the Ultramarines due to her wanting to eradicate any Imperial defenders who have been in contact with the forces of chaos. She pulls rank and calls Exterminatus on any questionable worlds – I guess she is a High Lord after all! But certainly raises questions if the post-human Astartes are showing more compassion for the survivors of the war than her…


So yeah the IoM just lost a major forge world and Knight world. wow..


I am not so sure whether you can say it is actual total loss of the forge world considering the recent AdMech Codex has Metalica as a faction. That description sounds more like GW's usual "endless war" conclusion with the AdMech constantly playing whack a mole with the ongoing Chaos forces or virus. Or alternatively if you are a Chaos supporter, the Chaos forces constantly fighting the last AdMech holdouts.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 14:08:52


Post by: Andilus Greatsword


ERJAK wrote:
I gotta say, the OoML stuff looks pretty garbage all things said.

The warlord traits are pretty terrible.(Saintly example and Saint Katherine's blessing are straight up stupid. Especially considering SKB requires you to take the worst Sacred rite and only bumps it to a 5+. The +2S +2 attack one is clearly designed around the fighty canoness that frankly is more of a gimmick than anything.) The relics except for the sword are pretty bad, though the sword is reasonably strong. Certainly better than Blade of Admonition. Especially considering it's replacing a powerword rather than a Blessed Blade.

The stratagems are more weird than effective. The two fighty-ones are incredibly mediocre in an army that doesn't really do combat. Pious Machine Spirit is laughable, the Castigator and Immolator are sad jokes and the Exorcist already costs 2CP to shoot it at all. It's chasing good CP after bad units.

Rejoice the fallen will, very occasionally, allow 2 multimeltas or 2 heavy bolters in either a battle sister or retributor squad to shoot in your opponents turn for 2CP. Far too restrictive for how weak the effect is.

Martyr's Pyre doesn't make any sense. It only really functions if a flamer unit is in melee with something during your shooting phase which...anything infantry with a flamer that gets charged is not going to survive that long. The self destruct clause is irrelevant.

Death before disgrace is mediocre. Random obsec is fine but not exactly world changing.

A Martyr's duty should have been automatic. On a 4+. It's going to be worth it's CP maybe once every 2 or 3 games.

Exemplar of the Order is a meme.

I agree that the Warlord Traits and Relics are bad, except for the one obvious combo, but the strategems at least give OoOML unique options that, while potentially situational, are powerful if the situation presents itself. Very CP-intensive though, which is why I say OoOML players are probably going to want to get CP-recycling methods. Hell, in a morre casual setting it might even be worth considering Aestrid Thurga to save a CP if you plan on running a 2nd relic and can find a use for her buffs.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 15:29:15


Post by: H.B.M.C.


This is the problem with trying to treat a setting like it's a story...


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 15:59:20


Post by: Daedalus81


 Aenar wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Goonhammer's review of Be'lakor and his disciples is out.
EDIT: And here's the one for Sisters and AdMech.

The rumour was correct.

From the Goonhammer article:
As with the other armies of renown, the Disciples of Be’lakor carry some heavy restrictions. For one, Be’lakor has to be your Warlord and the army can’t include any other named characters, daemon princes, greater daemons, daemon engines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Chaos Knights, Traitor Titans, Plague Marines, or any of the Cult troops (e.g. Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.). Additionally your army can’t include a second daemon unit from the same Chaos God until you’ve added at least one unit from each god, and likewise you can’t have your third until you have two from each god, and so on, meaning you have to maintain some kind of balance.


I like how this is pretty restrictive. Keeps things getting out of hand, but....why didn't they apply those same thoughts to Ad Mech? Their restrictions are really soft and not a hinderance at all. Perhaps it wouldn't be as much of an issue if the base book wasn't overtuned, I guess?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 16:12:10


Post by: xeen


For the bel’klor army the restriction that kills it for me is no daemon engines. Not because it kills the competitiveness so much but because I have a bunch of them. Maybe when normal CSM get their update this will be more appealing. Right now I would just bring him in a normal daemon army.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 16:59:46


Post by: mrFickle


 Marshal Loss wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
From the Goonhammer article:
As with the other armies of renown, the Disciples of Be’lakor carry some heavy restrictions. For one, Be’lakor has to be your Warlord and the army can’t include any other named characters, daemon princes, greater daemons, daemon engines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Chaos Knights, Traitor Titans, Plague Marines, or any of the Cult troops (e.g. Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.). Additionally your army can’t include a second daemon unit from the same Chaos God until you’ve added at least one unit from each god, and likewise you can’t have your third until you have two from each god, and so on, meaning you have to maintain some kind of balance.
Why no Cult Troops?


More interesting for me is that World Eaters & Emperor's Children are listed alongside the TS & DG (when, by excluding cult units/SCs both the WEs and EC have nothing anyway, and all legions lose their specific stratagems regardless). Might be future proofing? Or possibly GW just being thorough in making the army of renown "undivided". Still, an EC fan can dream.



One can hope this is an indication of WE and EC codexes. If it was purely thematic then Night Lords should be excluded as well.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 17:06:04


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


mrFickle wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
From the Goonhammer article:
As with the other armies of renown, the Disciples of Be’lakor carry some heavy restrictions. For one, Be’lakor has to be your Warlord and the army can’t include any other named characters, daemon princes, greater daemons, daemon engines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Chaos Knights, Traitor Titans, Plague Marines, or any of the Cult troops (e.g. Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.). Additionally your army can’t include a second daemon unit from the same Chaos God until you’ve added at least one unit from each god, and likewise you can’t have your third until you have two from each god, and so on, meaning you have to maintain some kind of balance.
Why no Cult Troops?


More interesting for me is that World Eaters & Emperor's Children are listed alongside the TS & DG (when, by excluding cult units/SCs both the WEs and EC have nothing anyway, and all legions lose their specific stratagems regardless). Might be future proofing? Or possibly GW just being thorough in making the army of renown "undivided". Still, an EC fan can dream.



One can hope this is an indication of WE and EC codexes. If it was purely thematic then Night Lords should be excluded as well.


Pretty funny that WarCom called out specifically that you can use all your toys from CSM, especially Daemon engines

Edit: also, in their preview they had Be'lakor in Front of a Heldrake and these pictures are usually directly from the book... So, are we sure every Daemon engine is out?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 18:01:37


Post by: Dysartes


mrFickle wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
From the Goonhammer article:
As with the other armies of renown, the Disciples of Be’lakor carry some heavy restrictions. For one, Be’lakor has to be your Warlord and the army can’t include any other named characters, daemon princes, greater daemons, daemon engines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Chaos Knights, Traitor Titans, Plague Marines, or any of the Cult troops (e.g. Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.). Additionally your army can’t include a second daemon unit from the same Chaos God until you’ve added at least one unit from each god, and likewise you can’t have your third until you have two from each god, and so on, meaning you have to maintain some kind of balance.
Why no Cult Troops?


More interesting for me is that World Eaters & Emperor's Children are listed alongside the TS & DG (when, by excluding cult units/SCs both the WEs and EC have nothing anyway, and all legions lose their specific stratagems regardless). Might be future proofing? Or possibly GW just being thorough in making the army of renown "undivided". Still, an EC fan can dream.



One can hope this is an indication of WE and EC codexes. If it was purely thematic then Night Lords should be excluded as well.

Please do not get Gadzilla started again...


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 18:20:36


Post by: Sasori


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
From the Goonhammer article:
As with the other armies of renown, the Disciples of Be’lakor carry some heavy restrictions. For one, Be’lakor has to be your Warlord and the army can’t include any other named characters, daemon princes, greater daemons, daemon engines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Chaos Knights, Traitor Titans, Plague Marines, or any of the Cult troops (e.g. Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.). Additionally your army can’t include a second daemon unit from the same Chaos God until you’ve added at least one unit from each god, and likewise you can’t have your third until you have two from each god, and so on, meaning you have to maintain some kind of balance.
Why no Cult Troops?


More interesting for me is that World Eaters & Emperor's Children are listed alongside the TS & DG (when, by excluding cult units/SCs both the WEs and EC have nothing anyway, and all legions lose their specific stratagems regardless). Might be future proofing? Or possibly GW just being thorough in making the army of renown "undivided". Still, an EC fan can dream.



One can hope this is an indication of WE and EC codexes. If it was purely thematic then Night Lords should be excluded as well.


Pretty funny that WarCom called out specifically that you can use all your toys from CSM, especially Daemon engines

Edit: also, in their preview they had Be'lakor in Front of a Heldrake and these pictures are usually directly from the book... So, are we sure every Daemon engine is out?


Yeah, Man reads book is out as well as the articles. Sad.

This really derailed the hype I had, that's for sure. Not being able to include Daemon engines is just such a huge blow. Feels like they went out of their way to ensure that you couldn't include anything that made either army viable.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 19:06:55


Post by: Gadzilla666


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
From the Goonhammer article:
As with the other armies of renown, the Disciples of Be’lakor carry some heavy restrictions. For one, Be’lakor has to be your Warlord and the army can’t include any other named characters, daemon princes, greater daemons, daemon engines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Chaos Knights, Traitor Titans, Plague Marines, or any of the Cult troops (e.g. Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.). Additionally your army can’t include a second daemon unit from the same Chaos God until you’ve added at least one unit from each god, and likewise you can’t have your third until you have two from each god, and so on, meaning you have to maintain some kind of balance.
Why no Cult Troops?


More interesting for me is that World Eaters & Emperor's Children are listed alongside the TS & DG (when, by excluding cult units/SCs both the WEs and EC have nothing anyway, and all legions lose their specific stratagems regardless). Might be future proofing? Or possibly GW just being thorough in making the army of renown "undivided". Still, an EC fan can dream.



One can hope this is an indication of WE and EC codexes. If it was purely thematic then Night Lords should be excluded as well.


Pretty funny that WarCom called out specifically that you can use all your toys from CSM, especially Daemon engines

Edit: also, in their preview they had Be'lakor in Front of a Heldrake and these pictures are usually directly from the book... So, are we sure every Daemon engine is out?

Just another case of the WarCom writers not knowing what was in the actual book. Those pictures were probably made by WarCom.

Dysartes wrote:
Spoiler:
mrFickle wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
From the Goonhammer article:
As with the other armies of renown, the Disciples of Be’lakor carry some heavy restrictions. For one, Be’lakor has to be your Warlord and the army can’t include any other named characters, daemon princes, greater daemons, daemon engines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Chaos Knights, Traitor Titans, Plague Marines, or any of the Cult troops (e.g. Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.). Additionally your army can’t include a second daemon unit from the same Chaos God until you’ve added at least one unit from each god, and likewise you can’t have your third until you have two from each god, and so on, meaning you have to maintain some kind of balance.
Why no Cult Troops?


More interesting for me is that World Eaters & Emperor's Children are listed alongside the TS & DG (when, by excluding cult units/SCs both the WEs and EC have nothing anyway, and all legions lose their specific stratagems regardless). Might be future proofing? Or possibly GW just being thorough in making the army of renown "undivided". Still, an EC fan can dream.



One can hope this is an indication of WE and EC codexes. If it was purely thematic then Night Lords should be excluded as well.

Please do not get Gadzilla started again...

I don't care if someone else wants to use daemons in their Night Lords army, or Mark them to the moon. I just don't want it to be a requirement to make CSM units work.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 21:43:38


Post by: ArcaneHorror


 Aenar wrote:
 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Goonhammer's review of Be'lakor and his disciples is out.
EDIT: And here's the one for Sisters and AdMech.

The rumour was correct.

From the Goonhammer article:
As with the other armies of renown, the Disciples of Be’lakor carry some heavy restrictions. For one, Be’lakor has to be your Warlord and the army can’t include any other named characters, daemon princes, greater daemons, daemon engines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Chaos Knights, Traitor Titans, Plague Marines, or any of the Cult troops (e.g. Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.). Additionally your army can’t include a second daemon unit from the same Chaos God until you’ve added at least one unit from each god, and likewise you can’t have your third until you have two from each god, and so on, meaning you have to maintain some kind of balance.


So basically, almost none of the cool stuff. I'll be skipping this.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/10 22:16:08


Post by: Marshal Loss


mrFickle wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
From the Goonhammer article:
As with the other armies of renown, the Disciples of Be’lakor carry some heavy restrictions. For one, Be’lakor has to be your Warlord and the army can’t include any other named characters, daemon princes, greater daemons, daemon engines, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor’s Children, World Eaters, Chaos Knights, Traitor Titans, Plague Marines, or any of the Cult troops (e.g. Berserkers, Plague Marines, etc.). Additionally your army can’t include a second daemon unit from the same Chaos God until you’ve added at least one unit from each god, and likewise you can’t have your third until you have two from each god, and so on, meaning you have to maintain some kind of balance.
Why no Cult Troops?


More interesting for me is that World Eaters & Emperor's Children are listed alongside the TS & DG (when, by excluding cult units/SCs both the WEs and EC have nothing anyway, and all legions lose their specific stratagems regardless). Might be future proofing? Or possibly GW just being thorough in making the army of renown "undivided". Still, an EC fan can dream.



One can hope this is an indication of WE and EC codexes. If it was purely thematic then Night Lords should be excluded as well.


I definitely hope so. Having read the rules page in full, if Disciples of Be'lakor are intended to be around in the long term, I'm actually really confident this is for the purposes of future proofing. There's literally no reason to list EC & WE alongside DG & TS except to prevent access to Legion specific units, as Legion specific relics/stratagems/warlord traits are all explicitly outlawed elsewhere.

Fingers crossed.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/11 15:56:58


Post by: mrFickle


The limitations in terms of demon engines etc seem odd. Belakor is going to be the big dude in the next demons codex and he is the only one that allows an unaligned list. So GW must think that being able to run an unaligned list is so good that other big hitter like demon engines need to be kept out. As belakor is 83 quid a mode you’d have thought GW would provide rules that are an incentive to buy the big guy.

Intentionally releasing a model at this price point and then making the army uncompetitive seems like shooting yourself in the foot


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/11 16:35:17


Post by: Rihgu


mrFickle wrote:
The limitations in terms of demon engines etc seem odd. Belakor is going to be the big dude in the next demons codex and he is the only one that allows an unaligned list. So GW must think that being able to run an unaligned list is so good that other big hitter like demon engines need to be kept out. As belakor is 83 quid a mode you’d have thought GW would provide rules that are an incentive to buy the big guy.

Intentionally releasing a model at this price point and then making the army uncompetitive seems like shooting yourself in the foot


You're just not galaxy-brained enough to understand how good it is. Don't you know? For years GW has released OP rules for the new hotness to get everybody to buy it. True GW-heads know and understand this, so Be'lakor & his army must be OP in a way the plebians don't get.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/11 18:32:10


Post by: Jidmah


mrFickle wrote:
The limitations in terms of demon engines etc seem odd. Belakor is going to be the big dude in the next demons codex and he is the only one that allows an unaligned list. So GW must think that being able to run an unaligned list is so good that other big hitter like demon engines need to be kept out. As belakor is 83 quid a mode you’d have thought GW would provide rules that are an incentive to buy the big guy.

Intentionally releasing a model at this price point and then making the army uncompetitive seems like shooting yourself in the foot


Keep in mind that nothing prevents you from just running him in a regular CSM/Daemons lists without any limitations. In fact, competitive daemon players already seem to be incorporating him in their slanesh lists, so that argument doesn't really match up.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/11 20:01:49


Post by: Arachnofiend


mrFickle wrote:
The limitations in terms of demon engines etc seem odd. Belakor is going to be the big dude in the next demons codex and he is the only one that allows an unaligned list. So GW must think that being able to run an unaligned list is so good that other big hitter like demon engines need to be kept out. As belakor is 83 quid a mode you’d have thought GW would provide rules that are an incentive to buy the big guy.

Intentionally releasing a model at this price point and then making the army uncompetitive seems like shooting yourself in the foot

My first thought is that they wanted to prevent cross-synergy with the daemon keyword (which is itself ???) but oblits and possessed are still fine. I don't like greater daemons being excluded but I at least see the reasoning for that as Bel'akor not being willing to share power with "equals", the daemon engines thing is arbitrary and extremely puzzling. And yeah, as Jidmah said Bel'akor is still quite playable in a normal daemons army, it's just his army of renown that's a failure.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/11 20:54:17


Post by: BrianDavion


keep in mind that when GW designs these regiments of reknown there's also lore reasons behind it. maybe Belkaor hates deamon engines?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/11 21:43:52


Post by: Iracundus


BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind that when GW designs these regiments of reknown there's also lore reasons behind it. maybe Belkaor hates deamon engines?


Yes, maybe he hates daemon engines due to them being enslavement of daemons? He is supposed to be arrogant and independent, and that's how he fell from favor. He could hate the very idea of a daemonic being trapped and enslaved (though hypocritical when it comes to eneslaving his mortal followers). "FREEDOM! (for daemons only)"


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/12 06:07:42


Post by: mrFickle


So the suspicion is that a straight out belakor, choas undivided demons, army from the codex will be a bit more roomy but will exclude CSM?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/12 10:32:10


Post by: Arachnofiend


mrFickle wrote:
So the suspicion is that a straight out belakor, choas undivided demons, army from the codex will be a bit more roomy but will exclude CSM?

Belakor has all four marks now just like Abaddon so you can even run him in a mono-mark list without breaking detachment bonuses. Could definitely just use him as a Tzeentch or Slaanesh HQ.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/13 19:11:55


Post by: PenitentJake


The Book of Fire review for Narrative Content is up on Goonhammer. They sounded pretty enthusiastic about it. Their review of the Crusade Mission pack for Act II was also pretty hyped.

Made me look at Plague Purge again, and my stance on that book has definitely softened. Looking forward to getting my hands on both of these books.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/13 20:40:29


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


Book of fire seems to just be a straight buff to my BL army.

I lose a worthless legion trait and get a pretty awesome one. Can take great daemon troops instead of worthless cultists or CSM. Get access to new psychic disciplines. Also still maintain <legion> keyword so my Abaddon can still reroll all hits for multiple units of termies.

I could not possibly be so stoked - except for the fact that Admech exist and make every army look like rubbish.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/13 23:20:01


Post by: Jarms48


EightFoldPath wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
This book has some rumoured Ork rules in it right? I imagine it may contain rules for a pure beast-snagga force, with it's restriction being no other Orks being able to be taken.

It will be highly competitive and will incentivise Ork players to buy the new Ork kits.


No not this book.

I think you are thinking of the early and limited edition Ork codex that will come in the beast snagga box?


Yes, you're right. I'm thinking of the new Warzone Octarius that's coming out later.

After seeing the Ork reveal recently. I'm convinced I'm right. Looks like those big squig transports are only going to carry beast snaggas, so Orks getting an "army of renown" that only allows beast snagga units is pretty likely.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/14 00:50:27


Post by: macluvin


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Book of fire seems to just be a straight buff to my BL army.

I lose a worthless legion trait and get a pretty awesome one. Can take great daemon troops instead of worthless cultists or CSM. Get access to new psychic disciplines. Also still maintain <legion> keyword so my Abaddon can still reroll all hits for multiple units of termies.

I could not possibly be so stoked - except for the fact that Admech exist and make every army look like rubbish.


According to one of the influencers that got a copy you do take a lot of restrictions prohibiting things like daemon engines or cult marines, which is pretty much everything that makes a chaos space marine army competitive. Aside from a defiler (crab walker ftw) it really doesn’t hurt me much, as I love the way power armor and terminators and bikes and what not look on the table. Havingg to cycle through multiple daemon gods for the daemons is sort of annoying to me though... And you need a bel’akor for the warlord... which is a huge restriction all in of itself as he will eat a quarter of your points at standard/tournament list sizes and even more elsewhere. I’m certain someone will find a stupid busted combo though.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/14 01:50:29


Post by: BrianDavion


macluvin wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Book of fire seems to just be a straight buff to my BL army.

I lose a worthless legion trait and get a pretty awesome one. Can take great daemon troops instead of worthless cultists or CSM. Get access to new psychic disciplines. Also still maintain <legion> keyword so my Abaddon can still reroll all hits for multiple units of termies.

I could not possibly be so stoked - except for the fact that Admech exist and make every army look like rubbish.


According to one of the influencers that got a copy you do take a lot of restrictions prohibiting things like daemon engines or cult marines, which is pretty much everything that makes a chaos space marine army competitive. Aside from a defiler (crab walker ftw) it really doesn’t hurt me much, as I love the way power armor and terminators and bikes and what not look on the table. Havingg to cycle through multiple daemon gods for the daemons is sort of annoying to me though... And you need a bel’akor for the warlord... which is a huge restriction all in of itself as he will eat a quarter of your points at standard/tournament list sizes and even more elsewhere. I’m certain someone will find a stupid busted combo though.



my hope is that when the CSM codex comes out GW will have put effort into making CHAOS SPACE MARINES, actually decent. so we can stop having "codex deamon engines and troop tax"


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/14 06:35:14


Post by: Not Online!!!


BrianDavion wrote:


my hope is that when the CSM codex comes out GW will have put effort into making CHAOS SPACE MARINES, actually decent. so we can stop having "codex deamon engines and troop tax"


Erm, not to rain on that hope, but, since their existence as a troop choice and more pronounced since 4th they haven't been worth gak, even WITH chainswords and boltpistols and bolters.

(also the last time they were any good was as a PA horde skewlist with a recycling stratagem and bonus CP... and even that wasn't that good... which goes to show just how bad they were.)

I do think it has to do with how GW shifted away from the customizable mainline vets from 3.5 to 4th and turned the faction into warbands of specific leaders and their goons, making rank and file for CSM more or less "filler" material...



Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/14 07:29:35


Post by: Arachnofiend


Given that tacs don't see play (in an era where other firstborn infantry like vanguard vets and terminators do, even) bringing CSM up to parity won't make them see play, either. CSM would have to be better than the equivalent Space Marine models, which... is not happening.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/14 10:05:23


Post by: BrianDavion


 Arachnofiend wrote:
Given that tacs don't see play (in an era where other firstborn infantry like vanguard vets and terminators do, even) bringing CSM up to parity won't make them see play, either. CSM would have to be better than the equivalent Space Marine models, which... is not happening.


Tacs problem is they're completely outclassed by intercessors. CSMs however could with minimal effort be a slightly differant story. I know I keep harping on this, but if they gave CSMs an extra attack instead of DTFE, and are willing to allow for chainswords and boltguns taken together (not likely I know but it'd help) CSMs could be, points depending, a reasonably decent choice. Let's examine a hypothetical CSM vs Intercessor under these rules for a moment.


Intercessor: S4 T4 2W 3+ save boltrifle: S4 -1 AP, rapid rife 1. 2 melee attacks at AP 0
CSM: S4 T4 2W 3+ save. Boltgun S4 AP 0 rapid fire 1. 3 Melee attacks at AP -1.

so you'd have an army with inferior shooting, but superior Melee (heck 3 S4 ap -1 melee attacks would make CSMs a better melee unit then some armies assault units)

(assuming they don't get the chainsword, yeah CSMs are just going to be intercessors without the boltrifle at best.. not great and they'll proably be about 16-17 PPM..)

BTW I'm going to make a guess that the black legion trait in the 9th edition codex will be +1 Leadership and the ability to act as if they ahd remained stationary when moving or advancing. Seems it'd retain the feel of what black legion was attempting to do in their 8th codex, and it'll be a pretty nice boost.



Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/14 17:12:28


Post by: Gadzilla666


BrianDavion wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Given that tacs don't see play (in an era where other firstborn infantry like vanguard vets and terminators do, even) bringing CSM up to parity won't make them see play, either. CSM would have to be better than the equivalent Space Marine models, which... is not happening.


Tacs problem is they're completely outclassed by intercessors. CSMs however could with minimal effort be a slightly differant story. I know I keep harping on this, but if they gave CSMs an extra attack instead of DTFE, and are willing to allow for chainswords and boltguns taken together (not likely I know but it'd help) CSMs could be, points depending, a reasonably decent choice. Let's examine a hypothetical CSM vs Intercessor under these rules for a moment.


Intercessor: S4 T4 2W 3+ save boltrifle: S4 -1 AP, rapid rife 1. 2 melee attacks at AP 0
CSM: S4 T4 2W 3+ save. Boltgun S4 AP 0 rapid fire 1. 3 Melee attacks at AP -1.

so you'd have an army with inferior shooting, but superior Melee (heck 3 S4 ap -1 melee attacks would make CSMs a better melee unit then some armies assault units)

(assuming they don't get the chainsword, yeah CSMs are just going to be intercessors without the boltrifle at best.. not great and they'll proably be about 16-17 PPM..)

BTW I'm going to make a guess that the black legion trait in the 9th edition codex will be +1 Leadership and the ability to act as if they ahd remained stationary when moving or advancing. Seems it'd retain the feel of what black legion was attempting to do in their 8th codex, and it'll be a pretty nice boost.


Instead of trying to "Retain the feel of what they were attempting to do in the 8th edition codex", I'd rather they forgot that the 8th, 6th, and 4th edition CSM codexes ever existed, and look at the Chaos: 2nd Edition codex and CSM 3.5 for inspiration. Why continue to build upon a bad foundation when you can draw inspiration from something actually GOOD? That would fix the problem of your 16-17 PPM CSM that are just "Intercessors without bolt rifles" by allowing them to spend those extra points on Veteran Abilities and Marks that actually matter, instead of just giving an additional keyword and access to an extra strategem and psychic power.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/14 18:48:54


Post by: Daedalus81


BrianDavion wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Given that tacs don't see play (in an era where other firstborn infantry like vanguard vets and terminators do, even) bringing CSM up to parity won't make them see play, either. CSM would have to be better than the equivalent Space Marine models, which... is not happening.


Tacs problem is they're completely outclassed by intercessors. CSMs however could with minimal effort be a slightly differant story. I know I keep harping on this, but if they gave CSMs an extra attack instead of DTFE, and are willing to allow for chainswords and boltguns taken together (not likely I know but it'd help) CSMs could be, points depending, a reasonably decent choice. Let's examine a hypothetical CSM vs Intercessor under these rules for a moment.


Intercessor: S4 T4 2W 3+ save boltrifle: S4 -1 AP, rapid rife 1. 2 melee attacks at AP 0
CSM: S4 T4 2W 3+ save. Boltgun S4 AP 0 rapid fire 1. 3 Melee attacks at AP -1.

so you'd have an army with inferior shooting, but superior Melee (heck 3 S4 ap -1 melee attacks would make CSMs a better melee unit then some armies assault units)

(assuming they don't get the chainsword, yeah CSMs are just going to be intercessors without the boltrifle at best.. not great and they'll proably be about 16-17 PPM..)

BTW I'm going to make a guess that the black legion trait in the 9th edition codex will be +1 Leadership and the ability to act as if they ahd remained stationary when moving or advancing. Seems it'd retain the feel of what black legion was attempting to do in their 8th codex, and it'll be a pretty nice boost.



I don't understand how FB are outclassed. For they same cost you can have a guy with a grav cannon or plasma gun and have more utility with the same durability and less melee.

I think we see selection bias, because people like new models with a cohesive theme.




Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/14 19:12:12


Post by: Platuan4th


 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't like greater daemons being excluded but I at least see the reasoning for that as Bel'akor not being willing to share power with "equals",


So then they just throw in the line they use in AoS about him enslaving Greater Daemons using their True Names. He doesn't share power, but he's not above forcing powerful Daemons to do his bidding in the Mortal Realms.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/14 20:11:47


Post by: Arachnofiend


 Platuan4th wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't like greater daemons being excluded but I at least see the reasoning for that as Bel'akor not being willing to share power with "equals",


So then they just throw in the line they use in AoS about him enslaving Greater Daemons using their True Names. He doesn't share power, but he's not above forcing powerful Daemons to do his bidding in the Mortal Realms.

Oh, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt but if he can use Greater Daemons in Sigmar then it's complete nonsense that he can't in 40k.


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/14 20:30:18


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Given that tacs don't see play (in an era where other firstborn infantry like vanguard vets and terminators do, even) bringing CSM up to parity won't make them see play, either. CSM would have to be better than the equivalent Space Marine models, which... is not happening.


Tacs problem is they're completely outclassed by intercessors. CSMs however could with minimal effort be a slightly differant story. I know I keep harping on this, but if they gave CSMs an extra attack instead of DTFE, and are willing to allow for chainswords and boltguns taken together (not likely I know but it'd help) CSMs could be, points depending, a reasonably decent choice. Let's examine a hypothetical CSM vs Intercessor under these rules for a moment.


Intercessor: S4 T4 2W 3+ save boltrifle: S4 -1 AP, rapid rife 1. 2 melee attacks at AP 0
CSM: S4 T4 2W 3+ save. Boltgun S4 AP 0 rapid fire 1. 3 Melee attacks at AP -1.

so you'd have an army with inferior shooting, but superior Melee (heck 3 S4 ap -1 melee attacks would make CSMs a better melee unit then some armies assault units)

(assuming they don't get the chainsword, yeah CSMs are just going to be intercessors without the boltrifle at best.. not great and they'll proably be about 16-17 PPM..)

BTW I'm going to make a guess that the black legion trait in the 9th edition codex will be +1 Leadership and the ability to act as if they ahd remained stationary when moving or advancing. Seems it'd retain the feel of what black legion was attempting to do in their 8th codex, and it'll be a pretty nice boost.



I don't understand how FB are outclassed. For they same cost you can have a guy with a grav cannon or plasma gun and have more utility with the same durability and less melee.

I think we see selection bias, because people like new models with a cohesive theme.



It's the strategems. Intercessors can fight twice, shoot twice, auto-wound on 6s to hit in melee, and most importantly, only be wounded on a 4+ (which kinda means you aren't getting the same durability like you said). And TACs can, uhhhh....get a 66% chance to do 2d3 MWs on a vehicle if they get stuck in melee with one? Did I miss anything?


Charadon book Two @ 2021/07/14 21:26:09


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Given that tacs don't see play (in an era where other firstborn infantry like vanguard vets and terminators do, even) bringing CSM up to parity won't make them see play, either. CSM would have to be better than the equivalent Space Marine models, which... is not happening.


Tacs problem is they're completely outclassed by intercessors. CSMs however could with minimal effort be a slightly differant story. I know I keep harping on this, but if they gave CSMs an extra attack instead of DTFE, and are willing to allow for chainswords and boltguns taken together (not likely I know but it'd help) CSMs could be, points depending, a reasonably decent choice. Let's examine a hypothetical CSM vs Intercessor under these rules for a moment.


Intercessor: S4 T4 2W 3+ save boltrifle: S4 -1 AP, rapid rife 1. 2 melee attacks at AP 0
CSM: S4 T4 2W 3+ save. Boltgun S4 AP 0 rapid fire 1. 3 Melee attacks at AP -1.

so you'd have an army with inferior shooting, but superior Melee (heck 3 S4 ap -1 melee attacks would make CSMs a better melee unit then some armies assault units)

(assuming they don't get the chainsword, yeah CSMs are just going to be intercessors without the boltrifle at best.. not great and they'll proably be about 16-17 PPM..)

BTW I'm going to make a guess that the black legion trait in the 9th edition codex will be +1 Leadership and the ability to act as if they ahd remained stationary when moving or advancing. Seems it'd retain the feel of what black legion was attempting to do in their 8th codex, and it'll be a pretty nice boost.



I don't understand how FB are outclassed. For they same cost you can have a guy with a grav cannon or plasma gun and have more utility with the same durability and less melee.

I think we see selection bias, because people like new models with a cohesive theme.



It's the strategems. Intercessors can fight twice, shoot twice, auto-wound on 6s to hit in melee, and most importantly, only be wounded on a 4+ (which kinda means you aren't getting the same durability like you said). And TACs can, uhhhh....get a 66% chance to do 2d3 MWs on a vehicle if they get stuck in melee with one? Did I miss anything?

They can also take a heavy weapon and use the Heavy bolter and missle launcher stratagems. Nothing as good as fighting or shooting twice.

Intercessors are just a bargain compared to a tac. For 2 points you get +1 attack and a better stock weapon.