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Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 17:42:56


Post by: the_scotsman


Warhammer Fantasy:

-Chaos takes normal human vikings and transforms them into giant 10-foot behemoths of muscle
-Greatest champion is currently a demigod riding around on a giant three-headed dragon, one of the most powerful single models in the entire game
-Greatest champion's grand plan successfully destroyed the world, plunged the universe into a millennia of total Chaos dominance
-Daemons are a threat to even elite units
-has dedicated, unique army lists to every god
-Subfactions within every race follow Chaos

Warhammer 40k

-Chaos takes already hyper-powerful space marines and transforms them into massively shittier space marines
-Greatest champion is a sad kylo ren melon-fether who carries around sempai's super-special powerfist even though this incredible relic is just a normal fething chainfist you can take on any space marine sergeant
-Greatest champion's grand plan was an excuse to release a whole new range of loyalist marine miniatures
-Daemons are the cheapest, shittiest, most worthless chaff imaginable
-Most gods share single army lists but with fun restrictions so you cant run them together without hamstringing yourself
-Only works on human mortals, basically everyone else just has blanket total immunity as an afterthought, human mortal followers are so incredibly gakky that they don't even have rules for them in the game every battle is such a foregone conclusion that they will lose.

Why is Chaos a complete and total joke in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, posing as much threat to the heroes as Skeletor does to He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, while in a different game by the same company it's allowed to be an existential, real threat?


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 18:01:14


Post by: macluvin


As a chaos space marine player I ask this question to myself every day...


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 18:26:31


Post by: Gert


A byproduct of nuking the Old World. Archaon winning set the precedent for Chaos being a threat and then when it came to a whole new timeline for AoS, GW could continue with that precedent without destroying the setting they made. The Mortal Realms are a huge canvas for GW to play with that has almost no ties to WHFB. Each Grand Alliance isn't a flat faction, and they all hate each other as much as they hate the other alliances and each one is a real threat to the others.
The Aeldari aren't a threat because they're a dying race trapped in specific locations like Commoragh or the Craftworlds, they can only do so much before they have to pull back. The Aelves in AoS live in all the Realms and we've seen events like in Broken Realms where Morathi went from background mention to literal God.
The big events in AoS (Sigmar's invasion, the Soul Wars, the Broken Realms, etc.) all result in real consequences for the factions in-universe, such as the breaking of the dominion of Chaos, the creation of the Night Haunt and Bonereapers, and the loss of Anvilgard. 40k doesn't have that because of the way the factions work, it's the Imperium vs everyone else. Everyone takes chunks out of the Imperium constantly but the Imperium can never lose like Sigmar did and return thousands of years later ready to retake its lost holdings.
Chaos can't win because if it did the setting would be over just like the Old World.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 18:28:23


Post by: Galas


This was something I was thinking just this morning. Why I like Fantasy Chaos so much but I dislike his 40k version?

And thats easy.

Because in Fantasy Chaos was metal. They were a constant threat. They WON. Twice, in Fantasy and in AoS. And the "good" guys are ACTUALLY on the back foot.

In 40K is the absolute contrary. Chaos LOST. Since the horus heresy they have been scrambling to make a reall dent in the Imperium. The Imperium in 40k is this monolothic and all powerfull entity that no other faction can really fight agaisnt. Should the Imperium put all of his military might agaisnt something, they will always win. And even then, if they lose, they are just losing a couple planets of the millions they have. It doesnt matter if they try to put Chaos as this big threat with the destruction of Cadia. In 40K, Chaos is more context than individual: The biggest problem with chaos are chaos storms and daemons incursions that happen "naturally".

The Empire in Fantasy was just a human state among many others, with a physical space agaisnt the hordes of chaos, beastmen, etc... with only his strenght and the one of his allies (that had their own amount of problems, dwarfs with skavens and greenskins, kislev, bretonnia, etc...) to face agaisnt this horde that yeah, was beaten back a couple of times, but they really felt strong. A real threat.


Also, giga-chad viking warriors in full plate > Emo space marines that follow giant manchildren with father related traumas.
Chaos Warriors were this looming presence of giant plated demigods of battle, most of them fought silently, the darth vaders of the setting, fighting what was basically a holy war because it was their culture. Heretic Space Marines are an all colorfull bunch of jokers that can't suth the feth up about their gods or their motivations.

And all of this was true before Age of Sigmar or the End Times. Fantasy chaos has always been better than 40k chaos.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 18:37:55


Post by: Gert


I think with AoS Chaos as well you can tell more stories than in 40k.
With 40k you're basically trapped into "this Warband was part of X Legion/Chapter until Y happened and now they're Chaos" or "these are Renegades and Heretics, they exist to die".
With AoS you can do way more. We've had a Khorne Lord who is the brother of a Stormcast that repents and closes a portal to the Realm of Chaos by sacrificing himself. There was a grand host of Nurglites led by a knightly order with their very own Lady of the Lake. GW has shown multiple facets of Slaanesh worshipers with the recent updates.
In AoS I can field a Chaos army and have not a single model be a Warrior of Chaos or Daemon. With 40k you can't really do that.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 18:42:06


Post by: PenitentJake


Because they don't have their 9th dex yet?


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 18:43:57


Post by: BrianDavion


PenitentJake wrote:
Because they don't have their 9th dex yet?


I think this is 1 part rules with a dash of lore as well. GW has done well in shifting the focus on chaos being the big bad. back when I started in 5th edition it felt like Tyranids had kinda stolen the "most threatening faction" title.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 18:51:38


Post by: Sledgehammer


They're probably more powerful than in fantasy..... The problem with chaos having major victories is that it tends to destroy entire settings and erase all the beautiful lore. Order can make major victories, but chaos will always be a constant. Mortal empires are not.

And chaos is a beatstick because it needs to be in order to give the imperial factions, which sell more, an opponent that can fulfill the fantasy for space marines to destroy things.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 18:54:37


Post by: vipoid


 the_scotsman wrote:

-Chaos takes already hyper-powerful space marines and transforms them into massively shittier space marines
-Greatest champion is a sad kylo ren melon-fether who carries around sempai's super-special powerfist even though this incredible relic is just a normal fething chainfist you can take on any space marine sergeant
-Greatest champion's grand plan was an excuse to release a whole new range of loyalist marine miniatures


I may not always agree with you, scotsman, but I swear I'll never stop loving your way with words.


That aside, are you sure it's specifically a Chaos problem and not a Marine problem? I ask because there seems to be a constant trend of, for example, mass-produced Imperial weapons being significantly better than Xeno weapons that are supposed to represent the peak of technological prowess.

In fact, I'm sure I recall you yourself giving example of Xeno weapons that become magically better when given to an Imperium character.

I say this because I think it represents a core problem in that GW don't seem to want any foe to outshine the heroes, regardless of how powerful or advanced they're supposed to be.

Chaos are just the most noticeable example because they're basically evil Marines and so have near-identical troops as well as sharing many vehicles with Marines. Thus, you can make direct juxtapositions and clearly see the differences in what Chaos units get (or, more commonly, don't get) in comparison to their Marine counterparts.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 18:58:50


Post by: xerxeskingofking


Because space marines.

While they are a core part of 40k, and part of the reason for its success, they are so popular they now have such a outsized influence on the setting that they occupy a position as the "protagonist " faction, in the way that no one in the Old World, or even The Mortal Relms, really does. The empire of sigmar, or even the stormcast eternals, dont have that same position as default "Good Guys".

This changes the dynamics of other factions, as the existence of a protagonist implies a antagonist. Thus, Chaos, the natural Bad Guy faction, must play that role, and be forced to never really win ( which stops them from appearing menacing). Xenos and other non marine imperial factions are reduced to sideline roles, speed bumps to show off the marines skill or establish the threat of chaos.


I mean the above purely in terms of lore rather than tabletop, by the way


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 19:30:03


Post by: macluvin


At least the tabletop matches the lore...


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 19:52:49


Post by: Table


Because there is a profitable power fantasy that can be sold to young persons in 40k and not so in AoS. Fantasy Warhammer has always been more....................mature than 40k. The empire in AoS is far less marty stu.

As long as the space marine (and by extension...loyalist imperial players) power fantasy remains a large financial incentive, chaos is going to suck. Which it has for a very very very long time. Demons interestingly have actually placed high in a few editions. Chaos marines have only placed high with a heavy heavy soup mixture. But is all a tabletob view.

It is even worse in the narrative. That is where bolter porn kicks into high gear and chaos becomes much of what all non imperial factions are (but to a greater degree).....a punching bag.
Now, it has been a while since Ive read Wrath of Magnus campaign books or the Fall of Cadia but chaos has actually done quite a bit in the lore of recent years. The Fenris system is ravaged with only the chapter planet being left somewhat intact (but corrupted). And Chaos broke Cadia (much to the dismay of imperial players) and split the galaxy. That is pretty severe blow. But all of it is gloss over because of the over reaching power fantasy that is the Imperium is handed victory after victory and even when they lose, its never a straight up fight. Its always *chaos : "you may have defeated me now, heroes....but soon my real aim will be witnessed".

Simply put, for the setting to have any cred, the Empire needs to start taking straight up loss's. And that cant happen and maintain the cash cow.

AoS does not have problem. Slowly, over the past year I have been selling off my sizeable chaos armies after 10+ years of playing. I just cant take the constant dumping on by GW. I am making the shift to AoS overall simply because the above problems do not exist. I wont be missing loyalist marines one bit. And yes, you can have my stuff.... for a price of course .


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 19:56:39


Post by: flamingkillamajig


I think it's been said here already. Space marines are a the main faction in 40k and they're overly popular. This means they get all the good stuff. In WHFB empire were the main good guys but there was never a real massively overly popular faction like with marines.

Secondly WHFB died when chaos won and WHFB wasnt doing the best. GW would never take such a risk with 40k when it made them so much money.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 19:57:41


Post by: A.T.


 the_scotsman wrote:
Why is Chaos a complete and total joke in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, posing as much threat to the heroes as Skeletor does to He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, while in a different game by the same company it's allowed to be an existential, real threat?
Didn't chaos just blow up the second most fortified location in the Imperium and split the universe in half? They killed off two whole product lines.

I mean it may have been lost amongst all the primaris releases but what has any non-marine faction done recently that is even remotely on that level? The best half the factions can claim is to be a vague 'looming threat', while the other half are barely worthy of the title 'conniving xenos'.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 19:59:28


Post by: JNAProductions


A.T. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Why is Chaos a complete and total joke in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, posing as much threat to the heroes as Skeletor does to He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, while in a different game by the same company it's allowed to be an existential, real threat?
Didn't chaos just blow up the second most fortified location in the Imperium and split the universe in half? They killed off two whole product lines.

I mean it may have been lost amongst all the primaris releases but what has any non-marine faction done recently that is even remotely on that level? The best half the factions can claim is to be a vague 'looming threat', while the other half are barely worthy of the title 'conniving xenos'.
Was that really shown, though?

It's sorta like when Tyranids eat a formerly unnamed and unknown chapter-it's SUPPOSED to be a big loss to the Imperium, but we outsiders don't really feel it, because we never had any attachment to them.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:05:18


Post by: Da Boss


Because 40K is a power fantasy for Space Marine players, and Chaos Marines are their cartoon villain.

I mean, better to be chaos, who at least get to be "The TRUE THREAT" in the narrative rather than the various Xenos who exist only for the Space Marines to incidentally beat up before "The TRUE THREAT" reveals itself and is then also beaten up.

I'm sure GW will do the same to AoS in time. They're obviously trying to replicate the Space Marine phenomenon with Stormcast, it hasn't quite worked yet but they'll keep trying.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:11:04


Post by: A.T.


 JNAProductions wrote:
Was that really shown, though?
Cadia being blown up and the oldmarines being slowly phased out?

Yes, very much.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:12:02


Post by: Galas


But even Cadia being blow up is most of the time sold as a moral victory for the Imperium.

Abaddon forces received big loses, he lost his black fortress and "the planet fell before the guard did".


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:14:22


Post by: Gert


A.T. wrote:
Didn't chaos just blow up the second most fortified location in the Imperium and split the universe in half? They killed off two whole product lines.

Immediately after Cadia happened and the Rift formed, the Custodes and SoS beat the Khorne invasion of Terra, Guilliman came back with thousands more Space Marines, then those same SM went around winning 70% of the battles they fought because all of the Chaos forces suddenly became super disorganised and scattered as soon as the Rift showed up. What product lines got killed off though?

I mean it may have been lost amongst all the primaris releases but what has any non-marine faction done recently that is even remotely on that level? The best half the factions can claim is to be a vague 'looming threat', while the other half are barely worthy of the title 'conniving xenos'.

Until the Rift, Tyranids were actually a threat. Leviathan had come from beneath the Galatic Plane, invading Ultima Segmentum, Segmentum Tempestus and even Segmentum Solar all at the same time. It started the Octarius War (still ongoing and is another Ork paradise like Armageddon), caused Inquisitor Kryptman to Exterminatus hundreds of valuable Imperial worlds to stop the feeding frenzy, attacked the T'au Empire, multiple Necron fiefdoms and nearly ended the Blood Angels and most of their Successors. Behemoth nearly destroyed Ultramar and now there's a Hive Fleet that has already adapted to be able to effectively fight Daemons.
The problem is Tyranids aren't a personable faction like CSM, Orks or Necrons so it's much more difficult to tell a story with them.
Ghazghkull was and sort of still is Ork Jesus, leading millions of Orks on a crusade to Ork Valhalla but the Orks stopped being a crisis threat after the War of the Beast.
At best we have the resurgent Necrons as the new end game faction but even then I'm not 100% sold on them like I was Tyranids.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:17:29


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Galas wrote:
But even Cadia being blow up is most of the time sold as a moral victory for the Imperium.

Abaddon forces received big loses, he lost his black fortress and "the planet fell before the guard did".
Half of the imperium is cut off from the astronomicon making space travel nearly a death sentence, and psychic communication is nearly impossible across the great rift. In no way shape or form was cadia anything but a loss for the imperium. Any losses sustained by chaos will always be replenished because chaos is inherently not bound by the material necessities of reality. The same cannot be said for the imperium, or the pylons. Also, ask a guard player how they feel when the one regiment that has received love by GW gets their howeworld blown up.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:23:55


Post by: flamingkillamajig


A.T. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Why is Chaos a complete and total joke in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, posing as much threat to the heroes as Skeletor does to He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, while in a different game by the same company it's allowed to be an existential, real threat?
Didn't chaos just blow up the second most fortified location in the Imperium and split the universe in half? They killed off two whole product lines.

I mean it may have been lost amongst all the primaris releases but what has any non-marine faction done recently that is even remotely on that level? The best half the factions can claim is to be a vague 'looming threat', while the other half are barely worthy of the title 'conniving xenos'.


That's fair.

Dark eldar are bad guys and aren't doing much. Our own dark city was being sucked up into slaaneshs donkey-cave. I think we now fight admech and necrons for Blackstone and sorta hold the rift in the city at bay. We aren't really looking to eliminate all other factions so much as enslave them and torture them and have a good time. We have no real likelihood of a complete dark eldar win but at least we have some fun while we can.

I think orks are mostly de-fanged.

Tyranids have done stuff in the lore but nothing too great for a while.

Genestealer cult are basically the guardsmen of the nids but probably a bit more dangerous. I generally see em as the expendable crap that destabilizes a world so the nids have an easier time.

I dunno what happened to necrons since they were re-made in 5th.

Tau are such a minor threat in the lore and probably exist as one of the many xenos empires that are taking over the imperium slowly but are too small to matter. I imagine hrud are another example but they would do them or the cthulu wanna-be's or enslavers.

I don't even know what eldar are these days. They aren't a threat to the imperium mostly.



Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:26:30


Post by: A.T.


 Gert wrote:
What product lines got killed off though?
Cadians and oldmarines, somewhat tongue in cheek.


 Galas wrote:
But even Cadia being blow up is most of the time sold as a moral victory for the Imperium.
Indeed. They were utterly wiped out and failed to prevent Abaddon from achieving any of his meaningful goals, but did spoil his victory lap. Solid moral victory :p


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:31:48


Post by: flamingkillamajig


A.T. wrote:
 Gert wrote:
What product lines got killed off though?
Cadians and oldmarines, somewhat tongue in cheek.


 Galas wrote:
But even Cadia being blow up is most of the time sold as a moral victory for the Imperium.
Indeed. They were utterly wiped out and failed to prevent Abaddon from achieving any of his meaningful goals, but did spoil his victory lap. Solid moral victory :p


Didn't they have to re-write chaos's mostly failed 13th black crusade before they made it out that he had some hidden aim he just pulled out of his ass? I tend not to follow the lore much anymore. WHFB had the lore I cared more about.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:32:46


Post by: Gert


A.T. wrote:
Cadians and oldmarines, somewhat tongue in cheek.

Weird since Cadians just got an update kit and you can still buy most of, if not all, the Firstborn models. And in the background Cadians exist all over the place not just on Cadia. There are regiments on settled worlds, regiments on detachment, regiments who are used to train other newly raised regiments on other worlds. And of course GW can't and won't get rid of Firstborn until they're 100% sure they can replace the range without insane backlash.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:33:21


Post by: catbarf


 Sledgehammer wrote:
Half of the imperium is cut off from the astronomicon making space travel nearly a death sentence, and psychic communication is nearly impossible across the great rift.


That's crazy, I bet that means the Imperium's having a hard time building new technologies or reinforcing their new Marines, right? No?

Okay, then surely that means Cadians are gone and the Astra Militarum are having to cobble together ersatz replacements for some of their best troops? Oh, Cadian training is already all over the Imperium and the loss of the planet doesn't actually mean much?

Maybe some of the forces caught on the other side are having trouble? Oh, the Scythes of the Emperor got wiped out! No wait they got Primaris reinforcements I guess it's all okay.

Hmm, kinda sounds like that half of the Imperium must have been pretty worthless if losing it has meant nothing to anybody and the Imperium is stronger than ever. I bet Guilliman's laughing all the way to the bank to cash the insurance check.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
The problem with chaos having major victories is that it tends to destroy entire settings and erase all the beautiful lore.


GW can and regularly does invent super duper important planets out of whole cloth solely to be the site of a battle. Any faction can win those stories whenever the writers want and it doesn't matter one iota to the greater setting. Look at Vigilus, a planet that didn't exist and didn't matter before the campaign books, but the Imperium won because they (virtually) always do. Very exciting.

The Imperium regularly coming out as the victor- to the point where a Chaos win over a major warzone is supposed to be a huge upset to the setting despite having no tangible repercussions whatsoever- is purely writer fiat. It's not a necessity by any means.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:33:52


Post by: Gert


 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Didn't they have to re-write chaos's mostly failed 13th black crusade before they made it out that he had some hidden aim he just pulled out of his ass? I tend not to follow the lore much anymore. WHFB had the lore I cared more about.

Not really, most of the Crusades had a defined goal anyway and it was the ones that were left vague that were added to/changed. The global campaign wasn't considered "canon" anyway.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:44:31


Post by: jeff white


Only a guess…

GW wants to be Hasbro, but the main product line is a tongue in cheek joke on the arrogant overextension of empire and the colourful diversity that it assimilates or destroys. Chaos represents anything that might want to stand in the way of the expanse of said imperial logic. Trouble is… The contemporary world is similarly divided, increasingly so and the joke is too close to home.

GW doesn’t know what to do, so, chaos is second rate filler and the focus is on the tacticool über modern warfighter, brah.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 20:49:34


Post by: Sledgehammer


 catbarf wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Half of the imperium is cut off from the astronomicon making space travel nearly a death sentence, and psychic communication is nearly impossible across the great rift.


That's crazy, I bet that means the Imperium's having a hard time building new technologies or reinforcing their new Marines, right? No?

Okay, then surely that means Cadians are gone and the Astra Militarum are having to cobble together ersatz replacements for some of their best troops? Oh, Cadian training is already all over the Imperium and the loss of the planet doesn't actually mean much?

Maybe some of the forces caught on the other side are having trouble? Oh, the Scythes of the Emperor got wiped out! No wait they got Primaris reinforcements I guess it's all okay.

Hmm, kinda sounds like that half of the Imperium must have been pretty worthless if losing it has meant nothing to anybody and the Imperium is stronger than ever. I bet Guilliman's laughing all the way to the bank to cash the insurance check.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
The problem with chaos having major victories is that it tends to destroy entire settings and erase all the beautiful lore.


GW can and regularly does invent super duper important planets out of whole cloth solely to be the site of a battle. Any faction can win those stories whenever the writers want and it doesn't matter one iota to the greater setting. Look at Vigilus, a planet that didn't exist and didn't matter before the campaign books, but the Imperium won because they (virtually) always do. Very exciting.

The Imperium regularly coming out as the victor- to the point where a Chaos win over a major warzone is supposed to be a huge upset to the setting despite having no tangible repercussions whatsoever- is purely writer fiat. It's not a necessity by any means.
Amending Storm of Chaos, the 13th Black Crusade, and the End Times were all writer fiat and changed outcomes based on where they wanted the universe to go, not where it naturally would have went.... Which is why I've been against the current approach to the setting to begin with. Real tangible changes that erase entire factions, and even units, is OFF THE TABLE because they're not going to destroy anything unless there is a replacement (primaris). I can't say i'm the biggest fan of the way Battletech handles its lore, which does destroy entire factions.




If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 21:35:40


Post by: vipoid


 Gert wrote:
What product lines got killed off though?


Eldar Corsairs and Renegades and Heretics, the lesser-known denizens of Cadia.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 21:58:03


Post by: Gert


 vipoid wrote:

Eldar Corsairs and Renegades and Heretics, the lesser-known denizens of Cadia.

Corsairs and R&H were still around in 8th. They might have been utter trash but they didn't get Legended until 9th. Not sure what you mean by lesser known denizens of Cadia.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 22:01:29


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


The lack of Cults is my guess.

In AoS, Tzeentch Arcanites are particularly tricky, because most of the time they’re just regular citizens going about their business. The whole buff physique thing is achieved through Magic.

The setting is also arguably closer to The Imperium gaining a toe hold in the Eye of Terror, and trying to expand, which makes things more interesting.

AoS also has a tipping point in the form of the Eightpoints/Allpoints, a place where one can access any Realm. It is conceivable a large and determined enough force could seize it back from Archaon, which would fundamentally shift the balance of power, especially given how many of his Goons would be lost in said war.

Likewise, if Chaos can gain access to Azyr, we’d see the opposite shift in the balance of power, as it’s yet another drain on Sigmar’s finite resources.

40K needs Cult activity. Show the canker at the heart of near every world. The consequences of an oppressive regime. The constant drain and distraction upon a near infinite war machine.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 22:03:44


Post by: Da Boss


Cults make even more sense in 40K than they do in AoS, because the Imperium is so awful and oppressive there would definitely be tonnes of disaffected people looking for an alternative.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 22:15:31


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Yup. The inescapable consequence of their sheer brutality.

People look for an escape. Cult Leaders do what they do. None of it ever starts off with “eat this baby and you’re in”. It’s always by degrees.

A Slaaneshi Cult might induct members with literal sweet treats, and slowly build their sensory indulgence. It might be “you look tired, try this, it’ll perk you up” and lead to hopeless addiction.

A Khornate Cult might start with self defence classes, to help you fend off bullies and thieves, and end up with an armed uprising against the True Bullies and Thieves, the members so lost in bloodlust that everyone is now the bullies and thieves.

Nurgle? Well, his blessing is the cure of the disease - or at least relieving the symptoms one way or another.

And so on and so forth. Whatever your weakness, someone on the pantheon will have the key to exploiting it.

Show that. Show the constant and unavoidable risk. Demonstrate that the Cults needn’t take over a world. Just disrupt it, cutting power, poisoning the well, salting the Earth, detonating ammo dumps etc.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 22:19:13


Post by: vipoid


 Gert wrote:
 vipoid wrote:

Eldar Corsairs and Renegades and Heretics, the lesser-known denizens of Cadia.

Corsairs and R&H were still around in 8th. They might have been utter trash but they didn't get Legended until 9th.


Nope. Corsairs were squatted in 8th. Their entire codex was reduced to a whole 2 units (meaning they couldn't even form a legal army without allying).

I was under the impression that R&H had been squatted long before 9th. If not, I congratulate R&H players on their foresight by discussing the squatting of their army prior to 9th's release.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 22:23:15


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I mean….the Inquisition. It exists because of Cult Activity.

Why send in a Chaos Fleet to burn a world, when you can just support a Cult to the point the Imperium does the job for you with a cheeky Exterminatus?

Engender mistrust in the opposing army, and you’ve compromised their ability to effectively wage war. Keep your foe side-eyeing each other and looking over their shoulder.

Compromise just one person in a squad or platoon, and whilst they’re resting, set off a few frag grenades in the billet. Before you know it, the entire Regiment is under investigation either by the Commisariat, or The Inquisition. With a high chance some of the Command Staff will end up executed for incompetence.

Just the merest hint of Chaos Infiltration, and chances are your enemy will do far more harm to themselves than you could ever hope to.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 22:29:06


Post by: Marshal Loss


There's a gulf between Chaos as they are and Chaos as they are presented. Chaos isn't a joke in 40k, they're just presented extraordinarily poorly. The destruction of Cadia/birth of the Great Rift & other events of that kind are all meant to be big wins for the baddies/huge obstacles for the goodies but woeful writing means that they don't feel as such when you read about them in a book.

It's like when you're told that the Imperium is losing its grasp of technology and then suddenly there are a zillion supermegamarines running around with floating tanks and better armour/weapons than anything oldmarines had in their history. Some books tell us that Guilliman is just racing around trying to put fires out but that's certainly not how it appears when the focus revolves around his victories. Telling us one thing and showing us another.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 22:30:35


Post by: catbarf


 Sledgehammer wrote:
If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


I tend to think of 'huge wins' involving tangible gains for the winner or tangible losses for the loser, and can think of plenty of things that would fit that bill short of blowing up the entire setting.

Until GW shows that losing Cadia and half the Imperium actually means something- Space Marine chapters wiped out, STCs lost, weapons or equipment that can no longer be constructed, planets in the remaining Imperium lost for lack of manpower, growing resentment against Guilliman for failing to safeguard the Imperium, loss of quality among the Astra Militarum, Chaos leveraging their foothold to field bigger and better things, Chaos seizing more territory or forcing back the Indomitus crusade, Cadians- then yeah I don't see it as a 'huge win' for Chaos. How could it be, when GW is bending over backwards to tell you that don't worry, Cadians are doing fine elsewhere, Primaris are coming to the rescue of all the beleaguered planets, Cawl's rolling out all the new super-tech, and everything's going to be okay? It's not dire straits if every step back comes with two steps forward.

What we're being told (Chaos is triumphant, the Imperium is in shambles) and what we're being shown (Primaris are crusading to save the galaxy, Guilliman is reforming the Imperium, Cawl is making major advances in technology) are completely incongruous.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 22:33:44


Post by: Tyel


 Sledgehammer wrote:
If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


If the only consequence of the fall of Cadia is people saying "the planet broke before the Guard did" then its hard to see how its a huge win.

I mean if you started in 8th (or 9th) would you even know Cadia existed? Things have reverted essentially completely back to the status quo.

I don't expect GW to write "and lo, Macragge had fallen. Tune into the livestream at 8 to watch us barbeque the studio Ultramarines army". But I do think they could write a war where fronts are a thing. Rather than "everything is essential, until it isn't. Because everyone can fly everywhere, and logistics just isn't a thing in this universe."

The defeat at Cadia should have resulted in the loss of neighbouring systems and a massive upgrade in Chaos's warmaking capacity. Instead there is no evidence the Imperium is remotely troubled by it, or the great rift. Or anything really.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 22:36:54


Post by: Da Boss


Looking at it as a mildly interested outsider, the theme of new-40K seems to me to be the Imperium Resurgent, which is not a bad theme really if you want to shake up the setting. I definitely don't really get the impression they're under pressure or collapsing.

The fact that the stagnation of the Imperium, one of it's strongest themes, has been replaced by innovation and a Primarch has returned to lead the Imperium is a huge deal, and fundamentally changes the setting from one about a long, self inflicted defeat, into a story of hope and regeneration.

It doesn't have to be bad that that's what's going on, though I find the implementation lacking personally and generally find it less interesting than the previous set up.

But it certainly weakens the theme of the Imperium being on the edge of collapse.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 22:38:19


Post by: Mr Morden


For one thing Chaos won the game in Warhammer and....was not actually very pleased.....they had to find a new playground and now we have the Mortal Realms - likely made by Chaos as well.

In 40k again if Chaos wins the game is over.....if they do just enough to let the mortals think they have a chance....and therefore the game carries on both against the mortals and each other.

The Imperium is flailing about, trying to patch things up with the primaris and the crusades.....its not really working as the novels and campaign lore states - one step forward, two backwards, the dam is still leaking everywhere but not quite breaking.....which is just as the Chaos gods like it.....they don't need to do anything more or give their minions any more power.



Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 22:44:22


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


AoS is definitely a setting of hope, rather than trying to stave off the inevitable for as long as possible.

Moving into 3rd, we’re seeing more and more things happen and stay happened. The Necroquake is one of them. Sure it was eventually ended, but it’s impact remains.

It’s also had the benefit of releases being closely tied to the ongoing narrative, as the wars reach ever further into the Realms.

It’s come a hell of a long way since the beginning, and for me at least it’s been a real treat to follow it’s evolution.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 22:53:23


Post by: Da Boss


I've gone from really disliking AoS to being interested in it but wanting it to really GO for it and be the mad gonzo setting it wants to be.

But I think 40K is about hope now too.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 23:24:57


Post by: BrianDavion


Not sure if 40k is about hope so much as "if this is going to be the end, then I would have us make such and end... as to be worthy of rememberance"


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 23:33:11


Post by: Sledgehammer


Tyel wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


If the only consequence of the fall of Cadia is people saying "the planet broke before the Guard did" then its hard to see how its a huge win.

I mean if you started in 8th (or 9th) would you even know Cadia existed? Things have reverted essentially completely back to the status quo.

I don't expect GW to write "and lo, Macragge had fallen. Tune into the livestream at 8 to watch us barbeque the studio Ultramarines army". But I do think they could write a war where fronts are a thing. Rather than "everything is essential, until it isn't. Because everyone can fly everywhere, and logistics just isn't a thing in this universe."

The defeat at Cadia should have resulted in the loss of neighbouring systems and a massive upgrade in Chaos's warmaking capacity. Instead there is no evidence the Imperium is remotely troubled by it, or the great rift. Or anything really.
Things revert back to the status quo, because by necessity the game has to if you want all of your factions to continue to exist and not have players quit / get mad. This is why for the longest time 40k was a setting rather than a storyline, it's also why I think advancing the story is a mistake. Every action essentially gets re-contextualized because any tangible difference outside of peripheral story telling needs to remain the same. You're never going to feel the change in the setting in the game, because that has vastly negative implications. Look at the Eldar and their god Ynnead. Same exact thing. Chaos got the biggest win it possibly could inside the setting with those parameters in place.

And furthermore, the fall of cadia has had huge implications on the lore and the story. To argue anything else is just not true.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 23:34:35


Post by: BrianDavion


 Sledgehammer wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


If the only consequence of the fall of Cadia is people saying "the planet broke before the Guard did" then its hard to see how its a huge win.

I mean if you started in 8th (or 9th) would you even know Cadia existed? Things have reverted essentially completely back to the status quo.

I don't expect GW to write "and lo, Macragge had fallen. Tune into the livestream at 8 to watch us barbeque the studio Ultramarines army". But I do think they could write a war where fronts are a thing. Rather than "everything is essential, until it isn't. Because everyone can fly everywhere, and logistics just isn't a thing in this universe."

The defeat at Cadia should have resulted in the loss of neighbouring systems and a massive upgrade in Chaos's warmaking capacity. Instead there is no evidence the Imperium is remotely troubled by it, or the great rift. Or anything really.
Things revert back to the status quo, because by necessity the game has to if you want all of your factions to continue to exist and not have players quit / get mad. This is why for the longest time 40k was a setting rather than a storyline, it's also why I think advancing the story is a mistake. Every action essentially gets re-contextualized because any tangible difference outside of peripheral story telling needs to remain the same. You're never going to feel the change in the setting in the game, because that has vastly negative implications. Look at the Eldar and their god Ynnead. Same exact thing. Chaos got the biggest win it possibly could inside the setting with those parameters in place.


I mean there's plenty of room for intreasting stories and big battles to be told, even if things are otherwise stalemated.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/03 23:37:18


Post by: Sledgehammer


BrianDavion wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


If the only consequence of the fall of Cadia is people saying "the planet broke before the Guard did" then its hard to see how its a huge win.

I mean if you started in 8th (or 9th) would you even know Cadia existed? Things have reverted essentially completely back to the status quo.

I don't expect GW to write "and lo, Macragge had fallen. Tune into the livestream at 8 to watch us barbeque the studio Ultramarines army". But I do think they could write a war where fronts are a thing. Rather than "everything is essential, until it isn't. Because everyone can fly everywhere, and logistics just isn't a thing in this universe."

The defeat at Cadia should have resulted in the loss of neighbouring systems and a massive upgrade in Chaos's warmaking capacity. Instead there is no evidence the Imperium is remotely troubled by it, or the great rift. Or anything really.
Things revert back to the status quo, because by necessity the game has to if you want all of your factions to continue to exist and not have players quit / get mad. This is why for the longest time 40k was a setting rather than a storyline, it's also why I think advancing the story is a mistake. Every action essentially gets re-contextualized because any tangible difference outside of peripheral story telling needs to remain the same. You're never going to feel the change in the setting in the game, because that has vastly negative implications. Look at the Eldar and their god Ynnead. Same exact thing. Chaos got the biggest win it possibly could inside the setting with those parameters in place.


I mean there's plenty of room for intreasting stories and big battles to be told, even if things are otherwise stalemated.
Which is what forgeworld did with their awesome campaigns!


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 00:35:14


Post by: Cronch


 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Galas wrote:
But even Cadia being blow up is most of the time sold as a moral victory for the Imperium.

Abaddon forces received big loses, he lost his black fortress and "the planet fell before the guard did".
Half of the imperium is cut off from the astronomicon making space travel nearly a death sentence, and psychic communication is nearly impossible across the great rift. In no way shape or form was cadia anything but a loss for the imperium. Any losses sustained by chaos will always be replenished because chaos is inherently not bound by the material necessities of reality. The same cannot be said for the imperium, or the pylons. Also, ask a guard player how they feel when the one regiment that has received love by GW gets their howeworld blown up.

We're told that. We're never shown that in any meaningful way. The Imperium Nihilus has been falling...and somehow still is there, as Primarines kick ass of just about anything they meet and are pretty much as effective as the Great Crusade was.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 01:39:29


Post by: TonyH122


 Da Boss wrote:
The fact that the stagnation of the Imperium, one of it's strongest themes, has been replaced by innovation and a Primarch has returned to lead the Imperium is a huge deal, and fundamentally changes the setting from one about a long, self inflicted defeat, into a story of hope and regeneration.


This goes to the heart of the division in my mind:

A Loyalist Primarch rises. Despite losing half the galaxy apparently, the Imperium is now in the best place its ever been! New tech, new marines, new hope!

A Traitor Primarch rises. Sgt. Johnny Space Marine's chainsword go brrr. Plan foiled by day's end!


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 02:13:05


Post by: BrianDavion


Cronch wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Galas wrote:
But even Cadia being blow up is most of the time sold as a moral victory for the Imperium.

Abaddon forces received big loses, he lost his black fortress and "the planet fell before the guard did".
Half of the imperium is cut off from the astronomicon making space travel nearly a death sentence, and psychic communication is nearly impossible across the great rift. In no way shape or form was cadia anything but a loss for the imperium. Any losses sustained by chaos will always be replenished because chaos is inherently not bound by the material necessities of reality. The same cannot be said for the imperium, or the pylons. Also, ask a guard player how they feel when the one regiment that has received love by GW gets their howeworld blown up.

We're told that. We're never shown that in any meaningful way. The Imperium Nihilus has been falling...and somehow still is there, as Primarines kick ass of just about anything they meet and are pretty much as effective as the Great Crusade was.




except that we rarely get a look at Imperium Nihlus. when we do the imagine is pretty clear, small islands of stability seperated by a sea of chaos.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 02:43:50


Post by: Sim-Life


Becaise GW can't write 40k Chaos as anything but a cartoon supervillain. Chaos isn WHFB is like Hannibal Lector compared to 40k's Power Ranger's rubber suit of the week.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 04:09:55


Post by: Apple fox


It’s rather depressing to read about chaos, they need worlds ally to them that are stable I think to throw the setting off ballance a bit. All the gods have positive aspects that a church or temple structure could follow.
And see there chaos marines as angels and support them against a regime that caused them harm, even if in the future the worlds will all potentially fall.
It seems like GW just writes chaos to allways be a bit of a failure and then gets confused why there narrative is flat when they win.

Even demons should be cunning enough to see a world created to exalt there masters is worth preservation.
Even if behind closed doors they are twisted away from modern human ideals.

When a sacrifice can actually show real results, or demon possessed bring power and prosperity I can see it being easy to push positives as scary as that sounds to us.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 04:20:22


Post by: jeff white


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I mean….the Inquisition. It exists because of Cult Activity.

Why send in a Chaos Fleet to burn a world, when you can just support a Cult to the point the Imperium does the job for you with a cheeky Exterminatus?
Spoiler:


Engender mistrust in the opposing army, and you’ve compromised their ability to effectively wage war. Keep your foe side-eyeing each other and looking over their shoulder.

Compromise just one person in a squad or platoon, and whilst they’re resting, set off a few frag grenades in the billet. Before you know it, the entire Regiment is under investigation either by the Commisariat, or The Inquisition. With a high chance some of the Command Staff will end up executed for incompetence.


Just the merest hint of Chaos Infiltration, and chances are your enemy will do far more harm to themselves than you could ever hope to.

This seems right… the Ao$ scheme is simple black and white scrum in the middle that gives chaos a role. In 40k, there is a less clear cut role, and without the inquisition’s role clarified, chaos remains underdeveloped..l maybe this is the sticking point for GW brain bugs…


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:
Spoiler:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
If you're really going to argue that the fall of Cadia wasn't a huge win for chaos then nothing but the destruction of the setting will satisfy you.


I tend to think of 'huge wins' involving tangible gains for the winner or tangible losses for the loser, and can think of plenty of things that would fit that bill short of blowing up the entire setting.

Until GW shows that losing Cadia and half the Imperium actually means something- Space Marine chapters wiped out, STCs lost, weapons or equipment that can no longer be constructed, planets in the remaining Imperium lost for lack of manpower, growing resentment against Guilliman for failing to safeguard the Imperium, loss of quality among the Astra Militarum, Chaos leveraging their foothold to field bigger and better things, Chaos seizing more territory or forcing back the Indomitus crusade, Cadians- then yeah I don't see it as a 'huge win' for Chaos. How could it be, when GW is bending over backwards to tell you that don't worry, Cadians are doing fine elsewhere, Primaris are coming to the rescue of all the beleaguered planets, Cawl's rolling out all the new super-tech, and everything's going to be okay? It's not dire straits if every step back comes with two steps forward.

What we're being told (Chaos is triumphant, the Imperium is in shambles) and what we're being shown (Primaris are crusading to save the galaxy, Guilliman is reforming the Imperium, Cawl is making major advances in technology) are completely incongruous.

So true. Da Boss makes a similar point. Insightful.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 04:28:50


Post by: Rihgu


This seems right… the Ao$ scheme is simple black and white scrum in the middle that gives chaos a role. In 40k, there is a less clear cut role, and without the inquisition’s role clarified, chaos remains underdeveloped..l maybe this is the sticking point for GW brain bugs…

W...What...? What about AoS is simple black and white...?


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 04:49:58


Post by: Quasistellar


They should just drop space Marines. They're clearly a failed idea, and the setting would be better with them completely removed


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 05:26:53


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


Since the fluff is made to support a tabletop game I'd say Chaos and its strongholds and worlds might get a look at if GW releases a Renegades and Heretics Codex. We only have CSM and Daemons now, the latter flooding the whole galaxy now without needing warpstorms anymore and the former are running around building their small empires (which are really small, sadly, like those three (3!) stars the Death Guard conquered in a supposedly huge Invasion).


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 05:37:52


Post by: BrianDavion


Apple fox wrote:
It’s rather depressing to read about chaos, they need worlds ally to them that are stable I think to throw the setting off ballance a bit. All the gods have positive aspects that a church or temple structure could follow.
And see there chaos marines as angels and support them against a regime that caused them harm, even if in the future the worlds will all potentially fall.
It seems like GW just writes chaos to allways be a bit of a failure and then gets confused why there narrative is flat when they win.

Even demons should be cunning enough to see a world created to exalt there masters is worth preservation.
Even if behind closed doors they are twisted away from modern human ideals.

When a sacrifice can actually show real results, or demon possessed bring power and prosperity I can see it being easy to push positives as scary as that sounds to us.


stable chaos worlds........ ok...


Joke aside they have those. there are tons of dark mech forge worlds, and you ever seen actual empire building in the post rift era. things like the Death Guards plague worlds etc.


Oddly, IMHO the biggest problem is that because the Imperium is ALWAYS on the defensive we learn so little about the "home" of chaos.

we can name proably hundreds of important imperial worlds, if only because they've been defended so often. for tenth edition a good option for GW would be to have the inital combat focus on marines vs chaos and have it be an indomatus strike on a chaos "mini empire" let the IoM LOSE that fight. (with the full implication that the Imperium will be back for "conflict 2, space marine boogaloo") this'd achomplish a few things.

this pocket empire would almost certainly have been conquered as a result of the great rift (and the beauty of the rift messing things up is it could have been chaos for hundreds or even thousands of years as the locals see things) so we'd see some loss initally. it'd do some good "world buidling" for chaos. and it'd show that the Indomatus crusade isn't able to reconquer EVERYTHING


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 08:29:28


Post by: StrayIight


Honestly, I think the major difference between the two settings isn't so much tied to the competence or ineptitude of Chaos as a faction in 40K. Rather, it's the 'special status' of the Emperor and the Astartes.

In one of the most recent books. Mortarion and Guilliman faced off. This didn't go well for Guilliman as most would imagine. But TLR, some guy we don't care about 'prayed', and the Emperor himself essentially turned up in one of the more contrived 'Deus ex machinas' I've seen.

Someone else in this thread mentioned the Power Rangers. It literally wasn't unlike that. 'We're losing, quick, we need Emperor-zord power now!'

There was even the implication given that Mortarion wasn't beyond saving...

The grim dark, hopeless feel of the setting is one of 40K's hallmarks. It's been in place since day one, and is a major selling point. In recent years, I think this is slowly changing and we're starting to lose some of the tone in an attempt to utilise Imperial/Astartes fan service.

In a more general example, a Space Marine chapter consists of what? Roughly 1000 marines? Yet however many pyrrhic victories are suffered, or the scale of a conflict, we never get a sense that this tiny amount of Astartes (given the scale) is dangerous impacted at all. Surely we should be seeing them nigh wiped out on a regular basis, if not for plot armour.

The Imperium are seen as the 'good guys' - the Space Marines especially. I can see nothing in the lore of the setting changing for the better while that appears to be what the larger part of the community wants.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 08:44:33


Post by: Esmer


 StrayIight wrote:
Honestly, I think the major difference between the two settings isn't so much tied to the competence or ineptitude of Chaos as a faction in 40K. Rather, it's the 'special status' of the Emperor and the Astartes.

In one of the most recent books. Mortarion and Guilliman faced off. This didn't go well for Guilliman as most would imagine. But TLR, some guy we don't care about 'prayed', and the Emperor himself essentially turned up in one of the more contrived 'Deus ex machinas' I've seen.

Someone else in this thread mentioned the Power Rangers. It literally wasn't unlike that. 'We're losing, quick, we need Emperor-zord power now!'

There was even the implication given that Mortarion wasn't beyond saving...


On Godblight:

Spoiler:
I honestly was expecting some cruel twist until the very end. Like, the way the Militant Apostolic was described as giving saner characters the creeps, having "a strange light in his eyes", being unaffected by Nurgle's diseases etc, I honestly thought he was being used as a puppet by the Changer of Ways in his game of Chaos Chess against Nurgle. But as it turns out, he was literally protected and guided by the Emperor? And Guilliman was also literally saved from certain death by Ku'gath's super Ebola and was capable of physically hurting Nurgle himself because he was guided by the Emperor? I am still not sure if I got everything straight.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 09:00:50


Post by: Sim-Life


Rihgu wrote:
This seems right… the Ao$ scheme is simple black and white scrum in the middle that gives chaos a role. In 40k, there is a less clear cut role, and without the inquisition’s role clarified, chaos remains underdeveloped..l maybe this is the sticking point for GW brain bugs…

W...What...? What about AoS is simple black and white...?


I don't know anything about the details of AoS lore but the factions are literally seperated into binary "grand alliances" of good/neutral(?)/bad factions (Order/Death/Destruction), if you look at the setting with no knowledge of anything else it's pretty black and white which is obviously how GW wants it to be presented.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 09:39:21


Post by: BrianDavion


 Esmer wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
Honestly, I think the major difference between the two settings isn't so much tied to the competence or ineptitude of Chaos as a faction in 40K. Rather, it's the 'special status' of the Emperor and the Astartes.

In one of the most recent books. Mortarion and Guilliman faced off. This didn't go well for Guilliman as most would imagine. But TLR, some guy we don't care about 'prayed', and the Emperor himself essentially turned up in one of the more contrived 'Deus ex machinas' I've seen.

Someone else in this thread mentioned the Power Rangers. It literally wasn't unlike that. 'We're losing, quick, we need Emperor-zord power now!'

There was even the implication given that Mortarion wasn't beyond saving...


On Godblight:

Spoiler:
I honestly was expecting some cruel twist until the very end. Like, the way the Militant Apostolic was described as giving saner characters the creeps, having "a strange light in his eyes", being unaffected by Nurgle's diseases etc, I honestly thought he was being used as a puppet by the Changer of Ways in his game of Chaos Chess against Nurgle. But as it turns out, he was literally protected and guided by the Emperor? And Guilliman was also literally saved from certain death by Ku'gath's super Ebola and was capable of physically hurting Nurgle himself because he was guided by the Emperor? I am still not sure if I got everything straight.


maybe but it seems to me the idea was to tie into psykic awakening. IIRC the book ends on the note that
Spoiler:
the emperor is seemingly becoming more active, but he's clearly not the same entity he was before his enthronement and his becoming more active may not even be a GOOD THING for the Imperium's current leadership


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 09:55:13


Post by: xerxeskingofking


 Sim-Life wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
This seems right… the Ao$ scheme is simple black and white scrum in the middle that gives chaos a role. In 40k, there is a less clear cut role, and without the inquisition’s role clarified, chaos remains underdeveloped..l maybe this is the sticking point for GW brain bugs…

W...What...? What about AoS is simple black and white...?


I don't know anything about the details of AoS lore but the factions are literally seperated into binary "grand alliances" of good/neutral(?)/bad factions (Order/Death/Destruction), if you look at the setting with no knowledge of anything else it's pretty black and white which is obviously how GW wants it to be presented.


well, im not that well versed in the lore, but as soon as you delve a little deeper, you realise that "order" contains armies which are openly "evil" by contemporary values, like the slavery based Idoneth Deepkin, or the followers of the God of Murder, the Daughters of Khaine, who are WHFB dark elf/40K dark eldar Witch Elves expanded into a faction. both these are members of the Grand Alliance of Order, i.e. the "good guys", and most of the rest are at best morally neutral.

it becomes rapidly apparent in this setting that "order" is not the same as "good", and even the Stormcast are said to be increasingly distant, cold and authoritarian, disconnected form the people they are trying to save, and they are no more "good" than space marines are.


with regards to the fall of cadia/great rift etc, i subscribe to the opinion that it started as an full-on "end times " style reboot of the setting as was done with AOS, but the fan backlash against the initial AOS release made them backpedal and preserve the existing timeline and setting, leaving them to kind of only half do the end times part and leave Chaos with this supposedly massive victory that hasnt really changed anything that actually matters. the SM are really the only faction to have undergone a large-scale change because of those events, none of the others really have (not even the AM who have had their poster subfaction's homeworld destroyed).

Thus, thiers almost no actual consequences to the chaos victory, or at least it doesnt feel like it.


Thinking about it more, i believe part of it is the relative size of the Imperium to the Chaos forces vs the size of the forces of Order vs Chaos in AOS. the Imperium is, canonically, the single most powerful entity in known space, strong enough to fight everyone else, and itself, without collapse for millennia. Against this behemoth, Chaos feels....smaller, weaker, the underdog. it feels like no matter how many worlds it conquors, its not going to make a dent in the might of the Imperium.

Whereas in AOS, it is the forces of Order who are on the back foot, fighting against the seemingly endless forces of chaos to secure but a small part of the wider setting. it is the "heros" who must struggle with a stronger foe. maybe that is why the fantasy chaos feels stronger?


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 10:24:04


Post by: Not Online!!!


 vipoid wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 vipoid wrote:

Eldar Corsairs and Renegades and Heretics, the lesser-known denizens of Cadia.

Corsairs and R&H were still around in 8th. They might have been utter trash but they didn't get Legended until 9th.


Nope. Corsairs were squatted in 8th. Their entire codex was reduced to a whole 2 units (meaning they couldn't even form a legal army without allying).

I was under the impression that R&H had been squatted long before 9th. If not, I congratulate R&H players on their foresight by discussing the squatting of their army prior to 9th's release.


The state of the 8th index for R&H was marginally better than the state of 9th legends.
Both iterations can't be regarded as anything else then already more or less dead.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 10:32:52


Post by: Mr Morden


 Sim-Life wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
This seems right… the Ao$ scheme is simple black and white scrum in the middle that gives chaos a role. In 40k, there is a less clear cut role, and without the inquisition’s role clarified, chaos remains underdeveloped..l maybe this is the sticking point for GW brain bugs…

W...What...? What about AoS is simple black and white...?


I don't know anything about the details of AoS lore but the factions are literally seperated into binary "grand alliances" of good/neutral(?)/bad factions (Order/Death/Destruction), if you look at the setting with no knowledge of anything else it's pretty black and white which is obviously how GW wants it to be presented.


And even GW have done cartoons lampooning this simplistic view

Order is not "good" - includes servants of the God(ess) of murder, murderous tree-entities, soul draining vampire elves, merciless Stormcast torturers and killers.
Death is not "bad"- it includes the spirits and other undead who aid their descendants.
Chaos is....Chaos - much of what it does in the Mortal Realms is evil but its not the whole story and it may be that they created the Mortal Realms as a new playground.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 11:21:05


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yup. The inescapable consequence of their sheer brutality.

People look for an escape. Cult Leaders do what they do. None of it ever starts off with “eat this baby and you’re in”. It’s always by degrees.

A Slaaneshi Cult might induct members with literal sweet treats, and slowly build their sensory indulgence. It might be “you look tired, try this, it’ll perk you up” and lead to hopeless addiction.

A Khornate Cult might start with self defence classes, to help you fend off bullies and thieves, and end up with an armed uprising against the True Bullies and Thieves, the members so lost in bloodlust that everyone is now the bullies and thieves.

Nurgle? Well, his blessing is the cure of the disease - or at least relieving the symptoms one way or another.

And so on and so forth. Whatever your weakness, someone on the pantheon will have the key to exploiting it.

Show that. Show the constant and unavoidable risk. Demonstrate that the Cults needn’t take over a world. Just disrupt it, cutting power, poisoning the well, salting the Earth, detonating ammo dumps etc.


IA 13 . P150

" On hundreds of worlds across the imperium the fires of rebellion burn, weapons created for its defence are turned to the service of the minions of chaos, and men who once slaved in its service cast off their chains and pledge themselves to new masters in the vain hope of escaping the life ordained for them. These renegades and heretics exchange one doom for another, for their new lords hold them in no greater esteem than the shadowy lords who oversee the corpse of the Emperor's once great realm. Vast armies are raised under the banner of mutants, fanatcis and witch-lords and turned against the Emperor's servants, carving out petty empires for themselves before His wrath descends upon them."


When GSC are a tumor metastasing, Chaos Cults / R&H is a viral infection already having taken hold of its host and sourounding areas comparatively.

P. 147:
" The Chaos space marines, whether the Veterans of the long war who renounced their oaths of loyality to the imperium during the horus heresy, or renegade adeptus astartes turned to the path of the dark gods in the ten thousand years since, are the apex of the many enemies dedicated to the downfall of humanity. The vast majority of renegades are mortal foot soldiers, cultists, rebels and fools fighting for the glory of chaos without ever knowing, or caring, that they are nothing but cannon fodder, meat to be fed into the never ending grinder of the long war. Many of these hapless mortals do not even know that they serve the dark gods, believing in their ignorance that rising up against the rule of the Imperium they are casting off a cruel and brutal regime to replace it with something better. Only when the dust settles on their ruined home worlds is the horrible truth revealed, Daemons descending upon the corpse-strewen wastes.

Chaos space marine warbands often fight alongside mortal armies, though inevitably they regard their allies as mere slave-troops to be herded onto the guns of the enemy to serve their own objectives. Some traitor legions foment rebellions and blasphemies in preparation for an invasion, so that at the very moment of attack, the defenders find themselves assailed from within and without, and unable to mount any sort of defence at all. Others utilise long-hidden cults as fifth columnists, weakening a world's defence by numerous subtle acsts of sabotage so that when the full attack descends, key defences are already inoperable.

Still more drive vast mortal armies before them as they go to war, overrunning the foe, clogging his fortifications and fouling his guns with bodies.

Mortal renegades take many forms. Some are planetary defence militias armed and trained almost on a par with the Imperial Guard regiments of the astra militarum. Others are warrior confraternities, hyper-violent gangs or pirate bands drawn to the fell banner of chaos, a charismatic demagogue or the promise of riches untold. Still more are drawn from castes of workers indentured to a miserable life of servitude who, having cast off their shackles of their overseers, are fated to a short but intense campaign of retribution. Some mortal armies are barely regocnisable as such at all, drawn from the mutant under-class that are tolerated, if only just, on some worlds, providing that they undertake the most hazardous of labours in the service of the imperium. Insurrection boils beneath the surface on these and a countless other worlds, ever on the verge of errupting into a full blown rebellion.

Many mortal hosts dedicated to the ruinous powers have never known the yoke of the Aquilla at all, having been spawned on worlds enteriely in the sway of the dark gods or simply far beyond the rule of the imperium. Such hosts are nigh inexhaustible, their hatred of the Emperor and their desire to cast down the imperium beyond any sane measure."



Right now, what is described above, is a singular entry in a gakky outdated dex.
Chaos therefore is basically some 10'000 year old and some less old vets space marines without any insidiousness at all found in it.
Theres no delegitimising of imperial rule, no challange at all, no nothing. Beyond the GSC dex most of the dexes don't even show how abismal the IoM is and therefore how close to internal collapse it stands. By virtue of that most factions just look non threatening, especially chaos.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 11:41:29


Post by: Gert


 Sim-Life wrote:

I don't know anything about the details of AoS lore but the factions are literally seperated into binary "grand alliances" of good/neutral(?)/bad factions (Order/Death/Destruction), if you look at the setting with no knowledge of anything else it's pretty black and white which is obviously how GW wants it to be presented.

This isn't actually true. On the surface factions like Stormcast or Cities of Sigmar are seen as the "good" factions but the Grand Alliances aren't split along these lines.
Order is the absence of Chaos and since GW got rid of the big book from 1st Ed, it's a lot more obvious that the Order "alliance" isn't all good guys.
Death is technically another form of Order, Nagash and Sigmar actually used to get along quite well in the Age of Myth. All is Nagash and Nagash is all and the Law of Nagash is strict and unbending. In fact Death is more dedicated to order than Order is.
Destruction factions fight for fun and/or snacks. They're just here to have a good time, which just so happens to include lots of killing.
Chaos isn't necessarily evil its just the opposite of Order. However, since the Dark Gods are evil and the positive aspects of their power are corrupted, Chaos is the bad guy faction.
The Grand Alliances aren't solid pacts, Broken Realms proves that with Order especially.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 12:01:21


Post by: Da Boss


I really hate the new background regarding the Emperor and his direct interventions or direct communication with characters.
BLERGH
Awful stuff. Removes all the ambiguity from the character that allowed a Chaos player to claim that the Emperor was nothing but a mindless corpse on a throne channelling raw power and the fun "I have faith" arguments that Imperials could use in response.

Nah, ambiguity, we can't have ambiguity. Better lay it all out and make sure everyone knows what the Truth is, so discussions can just boil down to "Hey what if the Emperor is dead?" "Nah man, check out book X on pg Y, it's canon the Emperor is alive and these are his opinions and goals." "Oh cool thanks."

It's like the stuff they did to Star Wars, filling in every single detail and the details are always more disappointing than what you imagined, taking the fun out of talking about the setting.



Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 12:19:58


Post by: Esmer


 Da Boss wrote:
I really hate the new background regarding the Emperor and his direct interventions or direct communication with characters.
BLERGH
Awful stuff. Removes all the ambiguity from the character that allowed a Chaos player to claim that the Emperor was nothing but a mindless corpse on a throne channelling raw power and the fun "I have faith" arguments that Imperials could use in response.

Nah, ambiguity, we can't have ambiguity. Better lay it all out and make sure everyone knows what the Truth is, so discussions can just boil down to "Hey what if the Emperor is dead?" "Nah man, check out book X on pg Y, it's canon the Emperor is alive and these are his opinions and goals." "Oh cool thanks."

It's like the stuff they did to Star Wars, filling in every single detail and the details are always more disappointing than what you imagined, taking the fun out of talking about the setting.



The way I see it, Emps will eventually return Sigmar-style and there will be an Emperor model with stats and rules eventually. They've already tested the grounds with the Primarchs, the Silent King (the God-Emperor of Necronkind, basically) and the god units of AoS.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 12:22:53


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Esmer wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
Honestly, I think the major difference between the two settings isn't so much tied to the competence or ineptitude of Chaos as a faction in 40K. Rather, it's the 'special status' of the Emperor and the Astartes.

In one of the most recent books. Mortarion and Guilliman faced off. This didn't go well for Guilliman as most would imagine. But TLR, some guy we don't care about 'prayed', and the Emperor himself essentially turned up in one of the more contrived 'Deus ex machinas' I've seen.

Someone else in this thread mentioned the Power Rangers. It literally wasn't unlike that. 'We're losing, quick, we need Emperor-zord power now!'

There was even the implication given that Mortarion wasn't beyond saving...


On Godblight:

Spoiler:
I honestly was expecting some cruel twist until the very end. Like, the way the Militant Apostolic was described as giving saner characters the creeps, having "a strange light in his eyes", being unaffected by Nurgle's diseases etc, I honestly thought he was being used as a puppet by the Changer of Ways in his game of Chaos Chess against Nurgle. But as it turns out, he was literally protected and guided by the Emperor? And Guilliman was also literally saved from certain death by Ku'gath's super Ebola and was capable of physically hurting Nurgle himself because he was guided by the Emperor? I am still not sure if I got everything straight.

BY THE POWER OF THE GOLDEN THRONE! I HAVE THE POWER!

But what do you expect when you have people who insist that Chaos be a bunch of mustache twirling villains? People want Saturday morning cartoons, gw gives them Saturday morning cartoons. Thank all of those constantly wailing:

"Chaos can't have/do that! They're too disorganized! They can't even maintain their equipment! Hellforges don't exist! There are no Traitor Guard, only Cultists! The Legions are BROKEN! Only warbands remain! Failbaddon, Failbaddon, FAILBADDON!"

Got to keep the Loyalist's power fantasy going, don't they?


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 12:38:51


Post by: Tyel


I wouldn't bet on an Emperor model myself.

For a last throw on the the fluff I feel there's a possible gap between these 3 paragraph "Chaos turned up, looked like they were going to win, but suddenly Primaris" and "Abaddon sails to Terra, routs the defenders and then pushes the off switch on the Golden Throne".

Factions don't have to perma-die to suffer meaningful losses in the fluff.

I mean... will we ever go back to Vigilus? Should I expect a neat retcon on how Abaddon's plans were actually to lose (again) but its OK because he was secretly collecting hearts to unlock the Master Sword, so it was all part of the plan honest?


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 12:45:32


Post by: Gert


Nah, Vigilus is now another Armageddon situation. Forces will flock to it from all sides looking for a scrap and it'll never been looked at properly again.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 12:46:17


Post by: vipoid


 Da Boss wrote:
I really hate the new background regarding the Emperor and his direct interventions or direct communication with characters.
BLERGH
Awful stuff. Removes all the ambiguity from the character that allowed a Chaos player to claim that the Emperor was nothing but a mindless corpse on a throne channelling raw power and the fun "I have faith" arguments that Imperials could use in response.

Nah, ambiguity, we can't have ambiguity. Better lay it all out and make sure everyone knows what the Truth is, so discussions can just boil down to "Hey what if the Emperor is dead?" "Nah man, check out book X on pg Y, it's canon the Emperor is alive and these are his opinions and goals." "Oh cool thanks."

It's like the stuff they did to Star Wars, filling in every single detail and the details are always more disappointing than what you imagined, taking the fun out of talking about the setting.


Agreed.

Previously, I'd pondered if The Emperor's current state was an allegory for what happened with Stalin towards the end of the Soviet Union. His close advisors/council were aware that the idea of Stalin was what was holding their entire empire together - so when he eventually died they were using all manner of machines to keep blood flowing and make it that his body was still, technically alive, even though he was basically brain-dead at that point.

I'd wondered if it was a similar thing in the Imperium. As in, the Emperor is so core to every aspect of Imperium life and doctrine that his death would be catastrophic, so they're basically doing everything in their power to keep him alive, even as the definition of "alive" gets stretched further and further.

Hell, even the old artwork for him basically gave the impression of a corpse on a throne:



It's hard to be sure, because of the style, but it almost looks like there are even cobwebs on and around him, which indicates he hasn't moved in a long time.


Of course, that might not be true. But as Da Boss says, it was fun to speculate and hypothesise about such things. Now all the ambiguity is gone and we know the emperor is not only alive/aware but actively advancing an agenda through chosen hosts.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 12:54:33


Post by: Sim-Life


I knew that trying to explain that from the outside AoS factions looks black and white would activate the nerdsplaining, but I did it anyway.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:07:56


Post by: Platuan4th


 Da Boss wrote:
I really hate the new background regarding the Emperor and his direct interventions or direct communication with characters.


That's not new. The Emperor directly communicated with characters as far back as the earliest days of the game, for example speaking to Jaq Draco in Ian Watson's books.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:15:05


Post by: Da Boss


If you want to take Ian Watson's books seriously as canon work away.

But thanks for doing the thing I highlighted as unfun.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:18:05


Post by: Platuan4th


 Da Boss wrote:
But thanks for doing the thing I highlighted as unfun.


Thanks for being the fun police.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:18:44


Post by: Da Boss


You're welcome.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:30:07


Post by: Esmer


I always took Draco's whackier elements (like a 40k Inquisitor quoting Chinese government officials from the 1990s, the same Inquisitor traveling to Terra to talk to the Emperor in person etc) as Ian Watson not having quite grasped the do's and don't of 40k's established canon.

Or maybe it just was a wilder and more artistically liberal time in general back then, with much fewer official lore rules.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:34:43


Post by: Gert


Watson's stuff is without a doubt cursed. The Emperor can still speak to people though and He was never specifically dead-dead. I personally viewed the situation like that of some Buddhists who meditate for so long their body dies but the belief is that their soul(?) survives and can still become enlightened. So the Emperor's body is basically a corpse but His soul is still very much around and influencing things.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:39:16


Post by: Mr Morden


 Da Boss wrote:
If you want to take Ian Watson's books seriously as canon work away.

But thanks for doing the thing I highlighted as unfun.


It does seem fair to mention this when you highlight it as a new element - why is it only now an issue in novels but was not then?


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:44:46


Post by: Da Boss


Fine I guess I was wrong and the Emperor has always been talking to characters.

Which is sad and less interesting than it being ambiguous in any case.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:45:33


Post by: Platuan4th


 Esmer wrote:
Or maybe it just was a wilder and more artistically liberal time in general back then, with much fewer official lore rules.


Dingdingding. Very much this. Watson was writing stuff in the era where much of what we accept as fact for 40K was still being developed. Mr Morden also directly hits it on the head where the issue with Boss' statement is that the idea was anything new or novel when it's happened in lore before, Draco's being the most prominent but not ONLY example predating Bobby G's talk with his maker.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:46:26


Post by: Da Boss


Indeed, I was wrong and retract my statement. 40K background has always been more disappointing than I thought it was.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:53:01


Post by: Mr Morden


 Da Boss wrote:
Indeed, I was wrong and retract my statement. 40K background has always been more disappointing than I thought it was.


It may also have been less available than it is now - I remember in those old days if you did not have or have read a specific book, codex whatever - you would not know about a given element?

We 40k fans tend to be more preoccupied with lore than GW ever has been and now we have the tools to list and catalogue it to whatever level of intensity we want (as someone who daily adds to the Warhammer lex I I know this can be enjoyable )



Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:55:02


Post by: Da Boss


I don't find that aspect of the background enjoyable at all, for me the setting was a place to invent and create, not to catalogue. To each their own.

My interaction on the background forum and here gradually convince me that I'm not really a fan of 40K, just my idea of it that I constructed with limited information when I was younger.

It's sad but it seems to be the case.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 13:59:20


Post by: Iracundus


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Indeed, I was wrong and retract my statement. 40K background has always been more disappointing than I thought it was.


It may also have been less available than it is now - I remember in those old days if you did not have or have read a specific book, codex whatever - you would not know about a given element?

We 40k fans tend to be more preoccupied with lore than GW ever has been and now we have the tools to list and catalogue it to whatever level of intensity we want (as someone who daily adds to the Warhammer lex I I know this can be enjoyable )



40K fans keep better track of the background and timeline than GW. I remember catching (major) Eldar continuity errors in Gav Thorpe's Eldar novels and pointing them out on his blog years ago.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 14:00:51


Post by: Platuan4th


Iracundus wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Indeed, I was wrong and retract my statement. 40K background has always been more disappointing than I thought it was.


It may also have been less available than it is now - I remember in those old days if you did not have or have read a specific book, codex whatever - you would not know about a given element?

We 40k fans tend to be more preoccupied with lore than GW ever has been and now we have the tools to list and catalogue it to whatever level of intensity we want (as someone who daily adds to the Warhammer lex I I know this can be enjoyable )



40K fans keep better track of the background and timeline than GW. I remember catching (major) Eldar continuity errors in Gav Thorpe's Eldar novels and pointing them out on his blog years ago.


I'm fairly certain this being a regular occurrence is what prompted the infamous "there's no such thing as canon in 40K" statement.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 14:04:41


Post by: solkan


Hey, look. 40k in the Realm of Chaos era established the situation as:
* The Horus Heresy ended with the Emperor a coma victim, imprisoned in the Golden Throne as the Imperium rotted and decayed around him.
and anyone who claimed otherwise was indistinguishable from a lunatic. *cough* Star Child *cough*




Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 14:05:20


Post by: Iracundus


Or they could just have someone to do continuity and background checking. I don't think anyone expects GW to achieve 100% error free background but other IP's do a far better job of checking, whereas some of the errors in GW stuff are glaringly big ones.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 14:17:16


Post by: Gert


It's a setting that's about 30 years old. There's so much stuff that's been written about it that it would take a seriously huge effort to pick apart every single novel/audiobook/Codex/campaign book to get a coherent 100% fact canon setting.
I don't think the bit about other IPs being better at fact-checking is true at all. ST: Discovery had quite a few errors until they solved the problem of being a historical setting and throwing the crew into the future, Star Wars has holes and errors all over and an entire movie was made to explain why the Death Star had such a colossally stupid design flaw.
AoS solved continuity errors by being a full refresh setting that also takes place over X number of years rather than having specific dates. There's no dating system and time is only really recorded in Ages (Age of Myth, Age of Chaos, etc.).


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 16:10:00


Post by: Karol


Not Online!!! 799476 11164097 wrote:


Right now, what is described above, is a singular entry in a gakky outdated dex.
Chaos therefore is basically some 10'000 year old and some less old vets space marines without any insidiousness at all found in it.
Theres no delegitimising of imperial rule, no challange at all, no nothing. Beyond the GSC dex most of the dexes don't even show how abismal the IoM is and therefore how close to internal collapse it stands. By virtue of that most factions just look non threatening, especially chaos.


It took them 12 years to retake hundrads of planets, create hundrads of space marine chapters and reinforce alreayd existing ones. The wars of faith are beating back the enemy of men on all front, and even the hive fleet leviathan, who was suppose to be unbeatable by virture of size, was easily dispatched by Gulliman and his crusading space marine legions. Not saying that the Imperium of Men is not in trouble or besset by enemies, but to call it being in an abysmal state is a bit over an overstatement.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 16:11:34


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


In terms of 40K?

It’s equally all canon, and none of it is canon. That’s the joy of it as everything we’re told (outside of the Heresy series) comes from unreliable narrators.



Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 16:17:00


Post by: Sim-Life


 Da Boss wrote:
I don't find that aspect of the background enjoyable at all, for me the setting was a place to invent and create, not to catalogue. To each their own.

My interaction on the background forum and here gradually convince me that I'm not really a fan of 40K, just my idea of it that I constructed with limited information when I was younger.

It's sad but it seems to be the case.


I came to this revelation a while ago. It doesn't help that subtlety or nuance is something modern 40k writers lack almost completely and seem obsessed with unveiling every mystery. I don't want to use the term Flanderisation but it's the only word I can think of for how the setting feels these days.
Also the scale never sat right with me. GW write as if the loss of a single world or even star system is a big deal but it never is with the exception of Cadia. Oh no, the tyranids ate Bumblefuck VII and wiped out the Blood Monkey space marine chapter! How terrible! No it's not. There's a million other worlds and you just made up the Blood Monkeys just now for your silly fluff blurb. Who cares?


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 16:26:38


Post by: The Red Hobbit


For the original question of why does Chaos suck in 40k. Well, seems like to me the business side of GW finds themselves in a bit of quicksand.

Space Marines are wildly popular, a large portion of sales and revenue are thanks to Space Marines. Many people play Space Marines, many people buy Space Marines thus we need to keep making Space Marine things to sell. They also spawn interest in other Imperial factions (AdMech, Sisters) which bolsters sales. More kits, more releases, more lore. Being the most popular faction they tend to save the day in all of their lore as well. Got to keep the customer happy right?

Why do Space Marines sell? Well they are the poster child, hold the lions share of releases and tend to thwomp everyone else in the lore.
Why are Necrons selling so well recently? Perhaps because they got a critically acclaimed book the Infinite & Divine and a complete model refresh.
Why aren't Eldar bringing in the big bucks? Perhaps because 90% of the range is of drinking age and 90% of their books is watching them comically fail at everything they do while saying "woe is me, who could have foresaw this?"

So GW gets into this spiral where they keep doing more Space Marines because that's what sells best and they want that giant swath of customers to keep buying. The feedback loops enhances this. It's not a sustainable trend of course, eventually less and less people will buy Chaos/Xenos kits then we'll run out of cartoon villains for a Space Marine to punch on the cover of a Marvel comic. GW is business savvy enough to realize this. It looks like they're current strategy is to refresh and prop up one bad guy per edition, make them the big bad and keep the deluge of Imperial releases. Keep the biggest customer happy with their wallet open while the other factions can tell each other "oh don't worry, we'll get out time in the sun eventually".

So why does Chaos suck despite being the big bad of the setting? Perhaps because you'd be insulting your biggest customer if Chaos starts beating up the Imperium. Remember the endless cacophony around the PA short story where a mean old Custodes killed a Space Marine who defied the voice of the Emperor. How rude.

 the_scotsman wrote:

Warhammer 40k

-Chaos takes already hyper-powerful space marines and transforms them into massively shittier space marines
-Greatest champion is a sad kylo ren melon-fether who carries around sempai's super-special powerfist even though this incredible relic is just a normal fething chainfist you can take on any space marine sergeant
-Greatest champion's grand plan was an excuse to release a whole new range of loyalist marine miniatures


Agreed with vipoid, you certainly have a way with words!


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 20:15:03


Post by: Cronch


 Sim-Life wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I don't find that aspect of the background enjoyable at all, for me the setting was a place to invent and create, not to catalogue. To each their own.

My interaction on the background forum and here gradually convince me that I'm not really a fan of 40K, just my idea of it that I constructed with limited information when I was younger.

It's sad but it seems to be the case.


I came to this revelation a while ago. It doesn't help that subtlety or nuance is something modern 40k writers lack almost completely and seem obsessed with unveiling every mystery. I don't want to use the term Flanderisation but it's the only word I can think of for how the setting feels these days.
Also the scale never sat right with me. GW write as if the loss of a single world or even star system is a big deal but it never is with the exception of Cadia. Oh no, the tyranids ate Bumblefuck VII and wiped out the Blood Monkey space marine chapter! How terrible! No it's not. There's a million other worlds and you just made up the Blood Monkeys just now for your silly fluff blurb. Who cares?

That is not just 40k writers. It's pretty much ned media trend since the Star Wars EU happened, and only accelerated as nerd stuff became mainstream.See the midichlorians and the demand from certain fans to document every hiccup and fart of Horus Heresy.
This notion that there should be some sort of Approved Timeline Keeper at GW checking BL stories for purity is part of that demand to have no stone left unturned, no mystery left in lore.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 20:44:06


Post by: Grimtuff


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
If you want to take Ian Watson's books seriously as canon work away.

But thanks for doing the thing I highlighted as unfun.


It does seem fair to mention this when you highlight it as a new element - why is it only now an issue in novels but was not then?


Because there is a (fairly) recent spate of people wanting some nebulous established "canon" in 40k and in cowing to their demands warped 40k from a huge sandbox setting to an utterly utterly stupid storyline it was never, ever meant to be. Everything now has to be known and codified, including the cancer that is the HH books that inevitably infected 40k with everyone and their mum wanting to know what the consistency of a Primarch's gak was on the day of the siege, because those things will be known and codified in almost pornographic detail 10k years after the fact. No, 40k was not an ongoing storyline. Get that HH sequel storyline gak out of 40k.

Now, you have half the posts in background forums about the bloody Primarchs and The Emperor and how everything MUST connect back to the HH. How these people want The Emperor to return and undermine literally everything that makes 40k what it is. This is their bed and I hope they are happy lying in it, as they've warped 40k with it. But we have to have everything be a known entity and everything be connected to the HH. No, the Nids couldn't just be a random occurrence of them invading the Milky Way. Nope. It of bloody course is caused by something happening the HH.

BL books back then were just extra fiction, now you have people hanging on everything that is churned out and taking it as gospel, because we can't just have extra fiction to enrich the setting. Noooo... we have to make the galaxy smaller and have everything now revolve around two dozen of so characters.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 20:54:46


Post by: Gert


Almost like the Heresy was the defining event for the Imperium and is literally the root cause for the majority of its institutions and problems.
There's still plenty of mystery and sandboxing for 40k.
Also, come on dude is the swearing and cursing really necessary?


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 21:29:23


Post by: vipoid


 Gert wrote:
Almost like the Heresy was the defining event for the Imperium and is literally the root cause for the majority of its institutions and problems.


I think the point is that while the HH might be the defining point with regard to the Imperium and Chaos, it shouldn't also be the defining point for Necrons, Tyranids etc.

Similar to the complaints people brought up earlier, where Xeno races have just become toothless threats that only exist so that GW can go "Hah, just kidding! The real threat is actually Chaos, just like it was last time and the time before that . . ."


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 21:38:40


Post by: catbarf


 Gert wrote:
Almost like the Heresy was the defining event for the Imperium and is literally the root cause for the majority of its institutions and problems.


When you have ten thousand years of bureaucratic and religious stagnation, across a galaxy of millions of worlds, tying all of the Imperium's problems back to the same cast of superheroes is pretty limiting.

So I mean, yeah, having everything wrong with the Imperium come from the primarchs- including seemingly completely unrelated things like extragalactic aliens- is pretty dissatisfying for those of us who don't care for The Avengers But With Daddy Issues.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 21:40:24


Post by: Gert


 vipoid wrote:

I think the point is that while the HH might be the defining point with regard to the Imperium and Chaos, it shouldn't also be the defining point for Necrons, Tyranids etc.

Similar to the complaints people brought up earlier, where Xeno races have just become toothless threats that only exist so that GW can go "Hah, just kidding! The real threat is actually Chaos, just like it was last time and the time before that . . ."

The only links I know of between the Necrons and the Heresy is that Trazyn nicked a ship full of EC gene-seed for kicks. But considering that Trazyn's entire character is that he nicks stuff I don't see how that counts.
And considering that the 40k setting is dominated by the Imperium there isn't really much that the Heresy wouldn't have effected. The Imperium's lax military policies post-Heresy due to the false belief that humanity was safe led to the resurgence of the Orks and the subsequent War of the Beast.
If the Traitor forces had won then the Aeldari would be in danger of extinction and consumption by Slaanesh, something they are kind of trying to avoid.
As for the Tyranids, IMO the act of friendship that saw Dantioch sacrifice himself to save Polux and a company of Ultramarines inadvertently getting the attention of a terrifying extra-galactic foe is pretty cool. Nobody within the setting even knows that's how the Nid's first noticed the Milky Way but now they've found it the Astronomican is the new beacon for the murder moths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:

When you have ten thousand years of bureaucratic and religious stagnation, across a galaxy of millions of worlds, tying all of the Imperium's problems back to the same cast of superheroes is pretty limiting.

So I mean, yeah, having everything wrong with the Imperium come from the primarchs- including seemingly completely unrelated things like extragalactic aliens- is pretty dissatisfying for those of us who don't care for The Avengers But With Daddy Issues.

That's a bit of an oversimplification of events. By "a bit" I mean "a very large".


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 22:07:55


Post by: Tyel


I think its clear the fanbase (or online obsessives anyway) are divided on where they want the fluff to be or go.

Which could arguably be tied up with the tonal differences of "Grimdark but its ironic and funny", "Grimdark but VERY SERIOUS and grim. Seriously grim." and "Grimdark but isn't this awesome? Who doesn't like death everywhere. All the death!!! Also Guilliman is my spirit animal."

Filling in gaps is always difficult, because you potentially fill them in with something lame. Or just blatant contradictions. Which some people might not care about, but nerds are generally alienated by.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 22:47:36


Post by: AngryAngel80


Why does so much seemingly get such a little to no look in 40k compared to loyalist marines ?

Because it's 40k and they have some ideas on what we all should cherish as opposed to bringing everything up together.

Also they seem to quietly hate CSM, I don't know why but it just seems to be a trend.


Everything is because of the HH. It's like that game where everything is just a couple steps away from it. The Necrons went into slumber because they wanted to be all rested for after the heresy. The Tau want to make their own heresy as it sounded fun from all the books they read about it. Necrons love some heresy and want to gobble it up. Heresy sounds like a mighty good scrum for dem Orks. Etc, etc, etc. If you don't know how everything you do in the game relates to the heresy, you may be the heresy.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 22:50:51


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gert wrote:
As for the Tyranids, IMO the act of friendship that saw Dantioch sacrifice himself to save Polux and a company of Ultramarines inadvertently getting the attention of a terrifying extra-galactic foe is pretty cool. Nobody within the setting even knows that's how the Nid's first noticed the Milky Way but now they've found it the Astronomican is the new beacon for the murder moths.
You say "pretty cool", and some of us say "shrinking the universe unnecessarily".

Making the HH the cause of the Tyranid invasion was dumb.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 23:05:51


Post by: Gert


Agree to disagree HMBC.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 23:37:54


Post by: the_scotsman


Rihgu wrote:
This seems right… the Ao$ scheme is simple black and white scrum in the middle that gives chaos a role. In 40k, there is a less clear cut role, and without the inquisition’s role clarified, chaos remains underdeveloped..l maybe this is the sticking point for GW brain bugs…

W...What...? What about AoS is simple black and white...?


Jeff White consistently has zero idea what he's talking about. Not worth anything but an ignore and move on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vipoid wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Almost like the Heresy was the defining event for the Imperium and is literally the root cause for the majority of its institutions and problems.


I think the point is that while the HH might be the defining point with regard to the Imperium and Chaos, it shouldn't also be the defining point for Necrons, Tyranids etc.

Similar to the complaints people brought up earlier, where Xeno races have just become toothless threats that only exist so that GW can go "Hah, just kidding! The real threat is actually Chaos, just like it was last time and the time before that . . ."


....and even then it is easily and always dispatched by the heroes of the setting.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/04 23:52:05


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gert wrote:
Agree to disagree HMBC.
Spoiler:






Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 01:39:39


Post by: Void__Dragon


 Da Boss wrote:
I really hate the new background regarding the Emperor and his direct interventions or direct communication with characters.
BLERGH
Awful stuff. Removes all the ambiguity from the character that allowed a Chaos player to claim that the Emperor was nothing but a mindless corpse on a throne channelling raw power and the fun "I have faith" arguments that Imperials could use in response.

Nah, ambiguity, we can't have ambiguity. Better lay it all out and make sure everyone knows what the Truth is, so discussions can just boil down to "Hey what if the Emperor is dead?" "Nah man, check out book X on pg Y, it's canon the Emperor is alive and these are his opinions and goals." "Oh cool thanks."

It's like the stuff they did to Star Wars, filling in every single detail and the details are always more disappointing than what you imagined, taking the fun out of talking about the setting.



Ambiguity is certainly preferable in this instance if you want the setting to remain just that, a setting that remains static and is a playground for players to make their own narratives in. But many of those ambiguities are going to be revealed if 40k is to be an ongoing narrative. So are you a player that wants a setting, or a narrative? But regardless, the people who want a narrative for better or worse have already won it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iracundus wrote:

40K fans keep better track of the background and timeline than GW. I remember catching (major) Eldar continuity errors in Gav Thorpe's Eldar novels and pointing them out on his blog years ago.


This is the case with almost any fandom of a long-running work that has multiple writers like 40k. Because the reality is most fans simply do not give a gak about minor continuity errors, so there isn't much incentive to keep the canon air-tight.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 02:09:29


Post by: Sim-Life


 vipoid wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Almost like the Heresy was the defining event for the Imperium and is literally the root cause for the majority of its institutions and problems.


I think the point is that while the HH might be the defining point with regard to the Imperium and Chaos, it shouldn't also be the defining point for Necrons, Tyranids etc.

Similar to the complaints people brought up earlier, where Xeno races have just become toothless threats that only exist so that GW can go "Hah, just kidding! The real threat is actually Chaos, just like it was last time and the time before that . . ."


Man when I read Blood Of Baal and it ended with "turns out Chaos helped clean up the nids at the end" I was...well honestly I was pretty ambivalent because I was never that invested in 40k fluff, but if I HAD been invested I'd have been pissed.

I actually WAS pissed at them making the Hive Mind a partial warp entity and giving it emotions. I've played Nids since 2nd because I like that they're the most alien race in the game and GW seems to be reducing them to just Chaos but with eating.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 11:39:23


Post by: Gert


The Hive Mind isn't just Chaos with eating though. Previously its been seen as just an animal following instinct but each successive Hive Fleet has shown that the Hive Mind is intelligent and dangerous. The fact that specifically targeted the Blood Angels, to me at least, shows that it's capable of emotion which makes it that much more dangerous. It can learn and adapt but also feel rage and pick out specific targets for that rage.
Also the Hive Mind has always been Warp sensitive, this isn't new. Thats what the Shadow in the Warp is, the Hive Minds presence blocking access.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 14:17:25


Post by: Da Boss


"I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us but because they are incapable of good, honest, human hatred. "
That was a really cool quote about Tyranids in 2e. Shame it's not true any more.

And yeah, in case it's not obvious I vastly prefer my games to be settings rather than narratives.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 14:34:43


Post by: Platuan4th


 Sim-Life wrote:
I actually WAS pissed at them making the Hive Mind a partial warp entity and giving it emotions. I've played Nids since 2nd because I like that they're the most alien race in the game and GW seems to be reducing them to just Chaos but with eating.


The Hive Mind has always been an entity with emotions. Even in 2nd Ed short stories, Hive Ships would taunt Psykers in Gothic that had the audacity to board them before taking the psykers to torture.

You can blame the 3rd ed Codex lack of fluff for hinting otherwise.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 14:58:13


Post by: Karol


There is a difference between a bird being able to mimic the human voice, or cat using frenquencies used by small children on humans, and a hive mind having a feeling of hate against the art and culture of BA and its succesors.

It is like a dog suddenly telling you they very much are Jungian in their personal views on life. Makes as much sense too.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 15:10:55


Post by: Gert


There is a huge difference in a bird imitating a human voice and an extragalactic psychic presence speaking to you in your mind.
The Hive Mind isn't a bird it's a malevolent intelligence that rapidly adapts to the enemies it fights.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 15:56:12


Post by: Selfcontrol


To answer the OP, there are three main reasons :

1. Even to this day, GW is struggling with the whole Chaos faction and doesn't really know what it is supposed to be. Are CSM supposed to be armed with gakky weapons which are no longer being produced by the Imperium and (over)compensate with the Dark Gods' powers ? Are CSM supposed to be armed with older patterns of weapons which were extremely powerful ? Are the legions supposed to be "the main representatives" of CSM ? What about the renegades which are also supposed to be powerful (Huron Blackheart, Crimson Slaughters, etc) ?
On top of that, the legions and different warbands have a different relationship to the daemons. Some legions are true followers of Chaos (Word Bearers), others are not (Night Lords), others sometime use daemons while not being followers themselves (Iron Warriors) and finally, some sub-factions are so independant that everything is possible (World Eaters warbands, Crimson Slaughter, Black Legion, etc).

2. As Galas said, Chaos is for losers. In Fantasy, Archaon joined Chaos because he discovered some sort of terrible secret / knowledge which made him renounce his faith in Sigmar, not because he was manipulated like a moron ala Horus or Angron. The Chaos Warriors and other elite units are Norsemen who have been "elevated" after countless trials, deadly combats, etc. The Norsemen (and Norsewomen) lived in the Chaos Wastes where they built a whole society and culture. They were also traders and they were not always at war with the Empire. For example, they used to trade with the Empire.

3. The setting. The galaxy is huge. Like, really fething huge. And the Imperium owns the galaxy whereas the Empire was a state among other states (in 40K all other factions, even the ones which have an "empire", are tiny compared to the Imperium). The Imperium just lost a couple of planets ? A sector ? Who cares. At the same time, somewhere else in the galaxy, the Imperium is already colonizing new worlds (perhaps after exterminating the local unnamed Xeno population). This is why I don't like seeing GW trying its hardest to make Chaos and CSM the supreme bad guys : I don't believe it. They are simply not numerous enough and they are plagued by so many internal problems that I don't see them as a credible single threat.

TL;DR :
- In 40K, Chaos is for losers ;
- In 40K, the Imperium is all-powerful while the Empire was not ;
- In 40K, victories and losses are meaningless because the galaxy is so incomprehensibly huge that for every loss you can be sure another world is being colonized by the Imperium at the exact same moment ;
- GW, to this day, doesn't seem to know what Chaos and CSM should be ;
- Because of all that, in 40K, Chaos works best as a vague, insidious threat in the background.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 15:56:34


Post by: Galas


What I believe most people think (I myself do) is that it removes some of the appeal of the hive mind to have it have a personal vendetta agaisnt the Blood Angels, a nobody bunch of extra spicy food.

Is like you as a person hating a particular fried chip in a bag when you have already hate 3 or 4 before.

At the end of the day, its just there to make cater to imperial, space marines and blood angels fans. And when literally every piece of fiction or most of them need to have some appeal to imperial fans it becomes tiresome.

Is like when a child is having a party and you have to put a pie to his brother so he doesnt feel left behind.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 16:02:07


Post by: Selfcontrol


What I believe most people think (I myself do) is that it removes some of the appeal of the hive mind to have it have a personal vendetta agaisnt the Blood Angels, a nobody bunch of extra spicy food.


I fully agree with you. When I red that, I rolled my eyes. I like the Tyranids precisely because they are so alien to us and even their thoughts are alien to us. Making te Hive Mind feels "rage" or "hatred" towards a specific faction is utterly dumb and it heavily dilutes the feeling of facing a lovecraftian horror whoch is supposed to be incomprehensible to us.

EDIT : and it is even more stupid because the author really did a good job with its description of the Lictor.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 16:05:55


Post by: Galas


I mean, if GW tried to sell to me the idea that the Hive Mind "believes" the Imperium is another Hive Mind that presents a real threat because it can only understand the universe in his own concepts and this giganormous amount of biomass that throws hordes and hordes of soldiers agaisnt it (Basically with the same tactics) can only be another tyranid-like Hive Mind, that would be cool.

But GW writters aren't as clever.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 16:13:33


Post by: Da Boss


I think it's a problem with a lot of the background. The tension between making things really alien and unknowable or making them relatable. I prefer the Chaos Gods and the Tyranids to be pretty unknowable and weird to any human perspective. The Tyranids because they are a crazy composite organism with a completely different perspective and drive than any individual human (the Tyranid organism is more like a social insect colony than anything else, but even that's not really getting into it enough) and the Chaos Gods because they are weird self contradictory beings that exist beyond time and causality.

But I think for the sort of comic book stories some authors want to tell it is easier to give everyone personalities and understandable goals, because it is more dramatic and allows for more traditional storytelling. Not everyone wants to read some lovecraft style mediations on the horror of existence all the time.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 16:17:36


Post by: Selfcontrol


Unfortunately, according to GW, the Hive Mind only sees the Imperium as a prey.

What is baffling in my opinion, is that GW can be sometimes "brilliant" regarding the Tyranids. For example, in the fall of Shadowbrink, they played the "alien" part very well. Even though the Hive Mind had detected that something weird happened when the daemons first emerged, it didn't react since they are made of raw chaos matter and not biomass. The Hive Mind had a "wtf is going" and was very confused for a moment.

And it is because of that very precise reason (and their mutagenic power on the precious biomass) that the Hive Mind classifed the daemons as another "predator species".


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 16:22:57


Post by: Tyran


Lovecraftian horror doesn't work with 40k as a setting, because 40k is an action setting.

Horror is a mostly low scale genre in which the protagonist is horribly out of their depth. Horror doesn't work when you have to represent a large scale strategic situation, and much less when the protagonists literally Know No Fear.

You can have a horror story set in a war, but you cannot have a horror story about war, if you understand the difference.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 16:43:24


Post by: Gadzilla666


Selfcontrol wrote:
Even to this day, GW is struggling with the whole Chaos faction and doesn't really know what it is supposed to be. Are CSM supposed to be armed with gakky weapons which are no longer being produced by the Imperium and (over)compensate with the Dark Gods' powers ? Are CSM supposed to be armed with older patterns of weapons which were extremely powerful ?

They can do both. IA13 covered both Heresy era units and daemon engines just fine. And if they lifted the idiotic Martial Legacy rule for the Legions then both Heresy era units and daemon engines would be perfectly viable and equal options once our daemon engines get BS/WS3 like Death Guard's daemon engines.

Are the legions supposed to be "the main representatives" of CSM ? What about the renegades which are also supposed to be powerful (Huron Blackheart, Crimson Slaughters, etc) ?
On top of that, the legions and different warbands have a different relationship to the daemons. Some legions are true followers of Chaos (Word Bearers), others are not (Night Lords), others sometime use daemons while not being followers themselves (Iron Warriors) and finally, some sub-factions are so independant that everything is possible (World Eaters warbands, Crimson Slaughter, Black Legion, etc).

Again, both are possible. 3.5 and Traitor Legions covered the Legions almost perfectly, and Renegades would only need good custum traits to work. The only thing I'd change from 3.5 and Traitor Legions is allowing the Undivided Legions to take Marks other than Undivided if they wanted to, because they're YOUR DUDES, if you want to say your Night Lords warband has fallen to Slaanesh, that should be your decision. I wouldn't, but you should be able to if you want.

The rest is just up to the writers. Chaos has ripped a giant rift across the galaxy and split it in half, if they can't make it look like that means something, that's on them.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 16:59:26


Post by: Da Boss


 Tyran wrote:
Lovecraftian horror doesn't work with 40k as a setting, because 40k is an action setting.

Horror is a mostly low scale genre in which the protagonist is horribly out of their depth. Horror doesn't work when you have to represent a large scale strategic situation, and much less when the protagonists literally Know No Fear.

You can have a horror story set in a war, but you cannot have a horror story about war, if you understand the difference.


Well, before I give any counter argument I want to say that I think a lot of the writers for GW agree with you. I want to present an alternate take though.

Lovecraftian horror is about existential horror, not jump scares or anything like that. The idea that existence itself is horrific. And I think 40K fits into that perfectly. A horrendous universe of xenophobia and endless war and repression is existentially awful.
Even if I accepted that the Space Marines are the protagonists (I don't) then having them be transhuman monsters incapable of something so innately human as fear, monstrous brutes hyped up on stimms programmed to kill without question...still pretty horrifying.
So I think 40K can be a horror setting, but I think it's not really presented like that most of the time and particularly in recent times that presentation has gotten less and less important as they've airbrushed the marines into good guys and really gone hard on the angle that for the Imperium, the ends really do justify the means.

All of which is a great shame to my mind, but there's no doubt that the alternate viewpoint is valid and probably more popular.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 17:10:07


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Completely agree. 40k as a setting is full of horror for the common man, or the modern day viewer such as you or I. Even Space Marines are a form of horror, not the transhuman dread but the thought of modifying ourselves to that degree, shedding humanity to win wars.

Terrifying thought and part of what makes the kitchen sink setting so interesting.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 17:21:42


Post by: Tyran


 Da Boss wrote:


Well, before I give any counter argument I want to say that I think a lot of the writers for GW agree with you. I want to present an alternate take though.

Lovecraftian horror is about existential horror, not jump scares or anything like that. The idea that existence itself is horrific. And I think 40K fits into that perfectly. A horrendous universe of xenophobia and endless war and repression is existentially awful.


Lovecraftian horror is a type of existential horror, but not all existential horror is Lovecraftian in nature. Xenophobia and endless war and repression are not lovecraftian, because they are very human horrors we are at the very least historically familiar with.

Even if I accepted that the Space Marines are the protagonists (I don't) then having them be transhuman monsters incapable of something so innately human as fear, monstrous brutes hyped up on stimms programmed to kill without question...still pretty horrifying.


Even if they are not, Space Marines are the protagonists of Devastation of Baal.

So I think 40K can be a horror setting, but I think it's not really presented like that most of the time and particularly in recent times that presentation has gotten less and less important as they've airbrushed the marines into good guys and really gone hard on the angle that for the Imperium, the ends really do justify the means.

All of which is a great shame to my mind, but there's no doubt that the alternate viewpoint is valid and probably more popular.


You can have horror stories set in 40k, and such stories already exists. You can have very different stories set in 40k, doesn't change the issue the settings itself exists to sell games. If anything I would say the setting is at its best when it is very tongue in cheek than when it tries to be very serious.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 17:30:02


Post by: jeff white


Karol wrote:
Not Online!!! 799476 11164097 wrote:


Right now, what is described above, is a singular entry in a gakky outdated dex.
Chaos therefore is basically some 10'000 year old and some less old vets space marines without any insidiousness at all found in it.
Theres no delegitimising of imperial rule, no challange at all, no nothing. Beyond the GSC dex most of the dexes don't even show how abismal the IoM is and therefore how close to internal collapse it stands. By virtue of that most factions just look non threatening, especially chaos.


It took them 12 years to retake hundrads of planets, create hundrads of space marine chapters and reinforce alreayd existing ones. The wars of faith are beating back the enemy of men on all front, and even the hive fleet leviathan, who was suppose to be unbeatable by virture of size, was easily dispatched by Gulliman and his crusading space marine legions. Not saying that the Imperium of Men is not in trouble or besset by enemies, but to call it being in an abysmal state is a bit over an overstatement.


If you believe the propaganda.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
Lovecraftian horror doesn't work with 40k as a setting, because 40k is an action setting.
Spoiler:

Horror is a mostly low scale genre in which the protagonist is horribly out of their depth. Horror doesn't work when you have to represent a large scale strategic situation, and much less when the protagonists literally Know No Fear.

You can have a horror story set in a war, but you cannot have a horror story about war, if you understand the difference.


Well, before I give any counter argument I want to say that I think a lot of the writers for GW agree with you. I want to present an alternate take though.

Lovecraftian horror is about existential horror, not jump scares or anything like that. The idea that existence itself is horrific. And I think 40K fits into that perfectly. A horrendous universe of xenophobia and endless war and repression is existentially awful.
Spoiler:

Even if I accepted that the Space Marines are the protagonists (I don't) then having them be transhuman monsters incapable of something so innately human as fear, monstrous brutes hyped up on stimms programmed to kill without question...still pretty horrifying.
So I think 40K can be a horror setting, but I think it's not really presented like that most of the time and particularly in recent times that presentation has gotten less and less important as they've airbrushed the marines into good guys and really gone hard on the angle that for the Imperium, the ends really do justify the means.

All of which is a great shame to my mind, but there's no doubt that the alternate viewpoint is valid and probably more popular.


I am with the Boss.

To my mind, the Lovecraftian elements are to be found in the richest aspects of the setting, which had nothing to do with conventional battlefields and everything to do with culture wars, struggle for control of the fate of humanity and the Universe. It is the sort of pressure that makes people mad, might make it seem OK to graft a head onto a levitating life support system rather than code an AI to do similar work, for interesting reasons. This was home. Then, there are tyranids, and genestealer cults... worshipping primordial beings and then there is chaos, from other literature but sure... all of these tropes were spilling around smoky basements with cheap acid and whammo... an amalgam of a cross section of sci-fi fantasy. Of course, this is Lovecraftian. Lots of things were, at that time perhaps more than now.

And, I do not think of 40k as an action setting. This is not GI Joe, honest about his steroid use. Perhaps it has become that, in part because this might be what people expect to see (when held against contemporary blockbuster tacticool action films and video games) and because GW delivers to these expectations in a self-reinforcing feedback-loop that results in marines who aren't marines with magic sniper rifles that don't need line of sight and floating tanks as big as a necron's...



Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 18:18:37


Post by: Cronch


Problem with horror of the unknown is that we know, because we've all read it before. The Tyranids aren't unknowable, mysterious threat that does things we puny humans can't comprehend. It's just a big angry wasp nest that eats things and displays human-level intelligence by avoiding necron worlds cause they're hard to digest. Chaos could be that, but instead it's just howling pack of sore losers from 10,000 years ago and cartoon demons.
The chaos boys are scary not because of their inscrutable goals, but because they'll torture you for hours or days and then feed your soul to their god to be devoured. Scary, but not unknown or unknowable.

The second layer of Lovecraftian horror was also humanitys impotence to stop the inevitable. We were doomed, and that's the scary part. in 40k, we're told humanity is doomed in the end too, but not because a god will wake up and send us all into cannibalistic, orgiastic spasm of destruction as we gleefully carve out eyes of people we love, but because orks and tyranids will eat us. scary, but guns work pretty well on orks and tyranids and theoretically, if you have enough of them, you could even win.

So yeah, the horror of 40k is purely slasher horror of not wanting to be eaten or tortured, nothing much deeper, and if you're armed enough, you could kill the slasher.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 18:26:14


Post by: vipoid


 Tyran wrote:
Lovecraftian horror doesn't work with 40k as a setting, because 40k is an action setting.


I would argue that Lovecraftian elements can still work in an action setting, so long as they're not a core part of the action.

e.g. there's a difference between space marines fighting tyranids and space marines fighting the hive mind itself.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 18:30:49


Post by: Gert


I never got "unknowable horror". If it's unknowable why is it horror? What if the Elder Gods want to give me a cake? What if Cthulu just wants to hang out and watch tv?
Is it fear of the unknown? Isn't that just general fear?
Is it just something inexplicable? If so is that not just fear of the unknown?
I'm not being rude but it kind of doesn't make sense to me.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 18:33:02


Post by: Tyran


 vipoid wrote:

I would argue that Lovecraftian elements can still work in an action setting, so long as they're not a core part of the action.

e.g. there's a difference between space marines fighting tyranids and space marines fighting the hive mind itself.
It still isn't Lovecraftian, because as noted above you don't fight the Lovecraftian.

Lovecraftian stories can work in 40k, but they cannot be the core of 40k, because the core of 40k is people, aliens and demons trying to kill each other.

 Gert wrote:
I never got "unknowable horror". If it's unknowable why is it horror? What if the Elder Gods want to give me a cake? What if Cthulu just wants to hang out and watch tv?
Is it fear of the unknown? Isn't that just general fear?
Is it just something inexplicable? If so is that not just fear of the unknown?
I'm not being rude but it kind of doesn't make sense to me.


It doesn't work for everyone. I would argue that growing up watching Discovery Channel (and similar media) pretty much immunizes someone against Lovecraftian horror, because such media creates a love for the unknowable.

Lovecraft is after all a product of a dying worldview, mostly as a reaction of the reason based worldview that replaced it.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 18:36:18


Post by: Da Boss


 Gert wrote:
I never got "unknowable horror". If it's unknowable why is it horror? What if the Elder Gods want to give me a cake? What if Cthulu just wants to hang out and watch tv?
Is it fear of the unknown? Isn't that just general fear?
Is it just something inexplicable? If so is that not just fear of the unknown?
I'm not being rude but it kind of doesn't make sense to me.


It's horror based on the idea that your existence is insignificant and meaningless. It's not for everyone!


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 18:41:27


Post by: Gert


Sounds like bar work.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 18:54:34


Post by: Tyran


I do wonder how many true Lovecraftians remain. That is, people that are genuinely afraid of the unknown, and how many Lovecraftians these days are just people that confuse fear with fascination.

I mean, personally, the idea that the universe is immense and I'm insignificant reassures me, all my feth ups do not matter on the real scale of existence. Even more, it fascinates me. If anything, the real existential horror is that I will not live to see more wonders of existence being discovered, that I will never have the full picture, only an insignificant part of it.

Going back a few arguments, yes the whole "emotions" thing was disappointing, but it had nothing to do with Lovecraft. The sheer opposite in fact.



Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 19:18:34


Post by: Sim-Life


 Gert wrote:
I never got "unknowable horror". If it's unknowable why is it horror? What if the Elder Gods want to give me a cake? What if Cthulu just wants to hang out and watch tv?
Is it fear of the unknown? Isn't that just general fear?
Is it just something inexplicable? If so is that not just fear of the unknown?
I'm not being rude but it kind of doesn't make sense to me.


Its doesn't mean unknowable in the sense that you go "I don't know what that thing is", it's mean in the sense that even though you are exposed to something your simply cannot process how to comprehend what you're being exposed to. Like if the fluff of 40k says "The Imperium consists of millions of worlds" can your brain actually visualise that many individual worlds or does it just think of "lots of world"?

And this is kind of the problem with Cthulhu being depicted so much in the modern day, people assume hes just a big green tentacle thing with wings, nothing scary about that. How we know him to look is based on the closest description the narrator could provide AFTER his brain was driven insane from the mere sight of him. Its the most sense that the characters brain could make of what it was looking at, but the truth is we have no idea what he saw because Cthulhu was so incomprehensible to his limited human brain that it broke trying to simply understand what it had been exposed to.

Take Azathoth for example. Can your brain really comprehend what a nebulous being that created humanity via a dream would really look like? Or does it just make a close enough approximation and call it a day?


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 20:33:03


Post by: Karol


 Gert wrote:
I never got "unknowable horror". If it's unknowable why is it horror? What if the Elder Gods want to give me a cake? What if Cthulu just wants to hang out and watch tv?
Is it fear of the unknown? Isn't that just general fear?
Is it just something inexplicable? If so is that not just fear of the unknown?
I'm not being rude but it kind of doesn't make sense to me.


Have you ever been in a wood, at night 10-20km from nearest human village, with the closest thing to a weapon being a a knife and with full knowladge that against stuff like boar herds, bears, wild dogs or smugglers it amounts to nothing? Because I can tell you that you feel terror, if that happens to you. Also if humans are bad to each other, the chance of something not human being good to a human is statistically improbable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:


Its doesn't mean unknowable in the sense that you go "I don't know what that thing is", it's mean in the sense that even though you are exposed to something your simply cannot process how to comprehend what you're being exposed to. Like if the fluff of 40k says "The Imperium consists of millions of worlds" can your brain actually visualise that many individual worlds or does it just think of "lots of world"?

Why try to comprehand a non human in a face to face met up? Do I need to know what a pack of wild dogs or herd of boars thinks when it come near me? Do I have to do an indepth analyzys of their feelings? No I don't, 200k years of evolution gave every human enough genetical knowladge to know how to act in such situation. And I would say the majority of encounters with the unknown are best solved by killing the unknown with fire.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 20:47:49


Post by: Tyran


Meanwhile in real life, people that spend their time working in the wilderness have some very good tips to how to survive such encounters, and no, "burn everything with fire" is not it.

Even if 40k, humanity is always attempting to comprehend its enemies, because fighting what you don't understand is a sure way to lose.





Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 21:01:37


Post by: jeff white


Existential horror implies that existence has meaning … and that this meaning can be lost.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 21:08:09


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
Karol wrote:

Have you ever been in a wood, at night 10-20km from nearest human village, with the closest thing to a weapon being a a knife and with full knowladge that against stuff like boar herds, bears, wild dogs or smugglers it amounts to nothing? Because I can tell you that you feel terror, if that happens to you. Also if humans are bad to each other, the chance of something not human being good to a human is statistically improbable.

Thats not really unknown though is it. That's very real fear of very real threats you know are in the woods. Animals tend to attack humans when humans go into their territory, its not random.

Spoiler:
Why try to comprehand a non human in a face to face met up? Do I need to know what a pack of wild dogs or herd of boars thinks when it come near me? Do I have to do an indepth analyzys of their feelings? No I don't, 200k years of evolution gave every human enough genetical knowladge to know how to act in such situation. And I would say the majority of encounters with the unknown are best solved by killing the unknown with fire.

Again, animals don't attack for no reason unless they have a disease. You've wandered into their territory and represent a threat to them if they've attacked you.
The only people that know the Hive Mind is a vast intelligence capable of some emotions are the Blood Angels, maybe Tigirus and some radical Imperial scholars who got executed for daring to say Xenos might be intelligent.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 22:11:13


Post by: Cronch


 Tyran wrote:
I do wonder how many true Lovecraftians remain. That is, people that are genuinely afraid of the unknown, and how many Lovecraftians these days are just people that confuse fear with fascination.

I mean, personally, the idea that the universe is immense and I'm insignificant reassures me, all my feth ups do not matter on the real scale of existence. Even more, it fascinates me. If anything, the real existential horror is that I will not live to see more wonders of existence being discovered, that I will never have the full picture, only an insignificant part of it.

Going back a few arguments, yes the whole "emotions" thing was disappointing, but it had nothing to do with Lovecraft. The sheer opposite in fact.


I doubt there's that many. While the works are evocative, he was living at the very brink of age of science, where there were far more question than answers and where human knowledge expanded from "this is the one world that was given to us" to "we are one of myriad worlds in this universe" and from "we're made of...stuff" to "we're made of tiny tiny stuff you can't see". Literally turned the whole universe upside down more than heliocentrism. His writing is very much of the time (and with large heaping of RacismTM) and I don't think the same sensation can be replicated in a world where we take cloning for granted and have recordings of an actual reality-shattering explosion in the shape of a a nuke dropped on Hiroshima.

The closest you have is thalassophobia.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 23:36:55


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 Tyran wrote:
Lovecraftian horror doesn't work with 40k as a setting, because 40k is an action setting.

Horror is a mostly low scale genre in which the protagonist is horribly out of their depth. Horror doesn't work when you have to represent a large scale strategic situation, and much less when the protagonists literally Know No Fear.

You can have a horror story set in a war, but you cannot have a horror story about war, if you understand the difference.


I am not a Lovecraftian scholar, and I only took one literature course in university.

The first few books of the HH do seem, to me, to have horror elements in them with the Marine protagonists feeling the horror. Samus is here. When Gavriel's team encounter Chaos there is definitely horror. When Saul's team find the purpose of trees on Murder there is a feeling of horror.

So are these horror stories set in a war?


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 23:57:09


Post by: Tyran


Yes, because the focus there is the horror of the characters, the war becomes the setting for that horror.





Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/05 23:59:23


Post by: flamingkillamajig


This is why I feel like Fantasy works better when the ordinary little squishy under-dog humans are fighting a battle and somehow win. It's why I prefer WHFB and Lotr to 40k and Aos.

I still think in some ways Space Marines ruin 40k for many. The imperial guard should more frequently be the focus of the story. A puny human and his buddies standing against hopeless odds against so many different horrors of the galaxy with no clue about the greater purpose of the mission if there is one and against great unknowably intelligent and malicious or benevolent entities that probably care as much for their puny human life as I do dropping a penny and forgetting to pick it up.

If 40k was like warhammer fantasy then space marines wouldn't exist, sisters would either not exist or be few and far between and same with custodes. Admech could fulfill a fantasy "good guy" faction like dwarfs or elves.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 00:04:25


Post by: Tyran


I will point out that even with the IG stories, the protagonist is usually some absurdly competent veteran. I mean, even Cain has some godly levels of luck backed by superhuman levels of skill with the chainsword and laspistol.

"Random guardsmen is exposed to the hell of 40k" stories do exist, but sadly as rare as the guardmen usually dies. Horror is best in short doses, but GW wants long running series because those are the most profitable.



Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 00:08:02


Post by: Gert


TBF the whole point of Cain is that his entire life is a lie and pretty much every heroic thing he does is dumb luck.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 00:15:15


Post by: vipoid


 Tyran wrote:
It still isn't Lovecraftian, because as noted above you don't fight the Lovecraftian.


You know Cthulhu (by far the most famous Lovecraftian horror) was rammed by a boat and killed*, right?

Yes, fighting the Lovecraftian monsters isn't the point but it's not as if it never happens.


*Temporarily, but still.


Karol wrote:
Have you ever been in a wood, at night 10-20km from nearest human village, with the closest thing to a weapon being a a knife and with full knowladge that against stuff like boar herds, bears, wild dogs or smugglers it amounts to nothing? Because I can tell you that you feel terror, if that happens to you. Also if humans are bad to each other, the chance of something not human being good to a human is statistically improbable.


I read this and all I could think of was this:

Spoiler:



Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 00:18:02


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 Tyran wrote:
Yes, because the focus there is the horror of the characters, the war becomes the setting for that horror.





So how then is 40K (or 30K) not a setting suitable for horror? We have fearless, transhuman, power-armoured killing machines feeling fear and horror. I recall, as a reader, feeling horror as Loken leads his troops into that fortress with Samus is here whispering on the vox. I felt horror when Belial led the Deathwing into a trap of a Chaos-world.


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 00:29:09


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
 vipoid wrote:

You know Cthulhu (by far the most famous Lovecraftian horror) was rammed by a boat and killed*, right?

Yes, fighting the Lovecraftian monsters isn't the point but it's not as if it never happens.


*Temporarily, but still.

What kind of ethereal horror dies to a boat. Cthulhu has just lost all my respect.

Spoiler:
I read this and all I could think of was this:

[spoiler]

Now that you've pointed it out it all makes sense. Thanks I hate it


Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 00:37:42


Post by: Tyran


TangoTwoBravo wrote:

So how then is 40K (or 30K) not a setting suitable for horror? We have fearless, transhuman, power-armoured killing machines feeling fear and horror. I recall, as a reader, feeling horror as Loken leads his troops into that fortress with Samus is here whispering on the vox. I felt horror when Belial led the Deathwing into a trap of a Chaos-world.

I think I should have clarified more. You can definitely have horror stories set in 40k. But in those cases you have to refocus the narrative.

There is a two fold problem:

  • When you go to the large scale, with armies and fleets and worlds and sectors, there is no horror in that. In part because the scale is too large (one dead is a tragedy, a million a statistic), in part because the forces involved are well known (we know what a Hive Fleet is, what an Ork Whaaagh is, what a Black Crusade is).

  • When the protagonist in question is an heroic figure that you know is going to survive no matter what the author throws at them.


  • So horror stories in 40k have to be small scale, following a protagonist that isn't going to try fist-fight the devil and win.
    Thus my point is that horror doesn't work with 40k when you take it as a whole, but you can have horror stories set in 40k.

    Now Lovecraftian horror? that is even harder to make work because as noted above, plenty of things in 40k are well known quantities, and Lovecraftian horror is the horror of the unknown.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 00:37:46


    Post by: Platuan4th


     Gert wrote:

    What kind of ethereal horror dies to a boat. Cthulhu has just lost all my respect.


    Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 00:51:36


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     vipoid wrote:
    I read this and all I could think of was this:

    Spoiler:


    And this, ladies and gentlemen, is.....why Chaos sucks more in 40k than fantasy?

    And you made me pause High on Fire to listen to that Vipoid. Cuuurrsssee youuuu!


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 01:37:26


    Post by: Gert


     Platuan4th wrote:

    Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.

    I was meaning ethereal in terms of spooky/scary. My point remains though, Cthulhu is this terrifying nightmare beast that drives people mad just trying to comprehend it, then it gets taken out by a boat. Literally beaten the same way as a Disney villain.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 02:23:29


    Post by: BrianDavion


     Gert wrote:
    [spoiler]
     vipoid wrote:

    You know Cthulhu (by far the most famous Lovecraftian horror) was rammed by a boat and killed*, right?

    Yes, fighting the Lovecraftian monsters isn't the point but it's not as if it never happens.




    well... it built him a very nice house



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 03:04:26


    Post by: Platuan4th


     Gert wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:

    Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.

    I was meaning ethereal in terms of spooky/scary. My point remains though, Cthulhu is this terrifying nightmare beast that drives people mad just trying to comprehend it, then it gets taken out by a boat. Literally beaten the same way as a Disney villain.


    Man, wait until you find out it's possible to permakill Hastur.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 03:51:55


    Post by: BrianDavion


     Gert wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:

    Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.

    I was meaning ethereal in terms of spooky/scary. My point remains though, Cthulhu is this terrifying nightmare beast that drives people mad just trying to comprehend it, then it gets taken out by a boat. Literally beaten the same way as a Disney villain.


    Jaws was a universal studios villian not disney


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 04:02:05


    Post by: flamingkillamajig


    BrianDavion wrote:
     Gert wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:

    Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.

    I was meaning ethereal in terms of spooky/scary. My point remains though, Cthulhu is this terrifying nightmare beast that drives people mad just trying to comprehend it, then it gets taken out by a boat. Literally beaten the same way as a Disney villain.


    Jaws was a universal studios villian not disney


    He was talking about the old Little Mermaid movie. I seriously couldn't be so old I'm the only one to get that.

    At least he didn't go out like super shredder from the 2nd mutant ninja turtles movie. I think avgn showed how pathetically the villains at the end of the 2nd movie died.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 04:42:12


    Post by: BrianDavion


     flamingkillamajig wrote:
    BrianDavion wrote:
     Gert wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:

    Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.

    I was meaning ethereal in terms of spooky/scary. My point remains though, Cthulhu is this terrifying nightmare beast that drives people mad just trying to comprehend it, then it gets taken out by a boat. Literally beaten the same way as a Disney villain.


    Jaws was a universal studios villian not disney


    He was talking about the old Little Mermaid movie. I seriously couldn't be so old I'm the only one to get that.

    At least he didn't go out like super shredder from the 2nd mutant ninja turtles movie. I think avgn showed how pathetically the villains at the end of the 2nd movie died.


    could be worse, least he didn't go out like megatron in TF3 ".. so Prime now that thats all dealt with let's talk peac...." *utterly out of character decapitation by Prime!*


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 06:10:16


    Post by: Sim-Life


     Gert wrote:
    Spoiler:
     vipoid wrote:

    You know Cthulhu (by far the most famous Lovecraftian horror) was rammed by a boat and killed*, right?

    Yes, fighting the Lovecraftian monsters isn't the point but it's not as if it never happens.


    *Temporarily, but still.

    What kind of ethereal horror dies to a boat. Cthulhu has just lost all my respect.



    Have you ever woken up at 4am after hearing a noise in your house and in your mostly still asleep bumbling about to go see what it was you stood on a lego? That was the boat incident to Cthulhu.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 08:27:21


    Post by: Not Online!!!


     Sim-Life wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    Spoiler:
     vipoid wrote:

    You know Cthulhu (by far the most famous Lovecraftian horror) was rammed by a boat and killed*, right?

    Yes, fighting the Lovecraftian monsters isn't the point but it's not as if it never happens.


    *Temporarily, but still.

    What kind of ethereal horror dies to a boat. Cthulhu has just lost all my respect.



    Have you ever woken up at 4am after hearing a noise in your house and in your mostly still asleep bumbling about to go see what it was you stood on a lego? That was the boat incident to Cthulhu.


    Well that and a long stairway.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/06 15:37:45


    Post by: Platuan4th


     flamingkillamajig wrote:
    BrianDavion wrote:
     Gert wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:

    Cthulhu was never ethereal, though. The Old Ones and Elder Gods having actual physical form in the real world has always been a thing in Lovecraft's literature. That's part of the horror is that these beings are even able to exist on the physical plane. Even Azathoth has a massive corporeal form at the center of the Milky Way, though whether it's solid, liquid, or nebular gas surrounding his Super Massive Black Hole-esque maw is the real guess.

    I was meaning ethereal in terms of spooky/scary. My point remains though, Cthulhu is this terrifying nightmare beast that drives people mad just trying to comprehend it, then it gets taken out by a boat. Literally beaten the same way as a Disney villain.


    Jaws was a universal studios villian not disney


    He was talking about the old Little Mermaid movie. I seriously couldn't be so old I'm the only one to get that.


    I'm old enough to get it, I just felt it unnecessary to point out that ending was clearly influenced by Call of Cthulhu.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 13:41:39


    Post by: Tycho


    I feel like this all started the second they began to actually flesh out the Heresy. Prior to that, CSM in 40k were very similar to their Fantasy counterparts. I remember reading a passage from waaayyyyyyyyy back in the day (no longer recall where it even came from - just that it was old enough to be before the Heresy was anything more than a few blurbs here and there) where a Rogue Trader vessel is boarded by CSMs. The Captain refuses to believe it because "CSM are just myth and rumor. They don't actually exist!" Then he sees them and simply the mere sight of them, the mere reality of 5 CSM actually existing and being in front of him .... was enough to drive him literally mad. On the spot. Right then and there.

    Fast forward to 17million Horus Heresy novels later and every single one of the iconic 40k Chaos bad guys is essentially the super-human equivalent of a teenager with daddy issues. Naturally it was an unintended consequence, but it gets hard to take them seriously when every other line is "But father ...."

    Because of the Heresy, Abbadon "The Warmaster of Chaos" is no longer this towering inferno of unkowable chaotic awesomeness - he's basically just a whiney brat trying to out-do his failed/absentee father at his own game. The way it's been executed makes a lot of them un-like-able and kills any empathy you might have had for them, while also removing a lot of the mystery that made them so interesting. They've moved from a Lovecraftian style mystery, to full-on Skeletor style Saturday morning bad guys. I am not as familiar with the Fantasy fluff, but as far as I know, there was never a similar treatment in their lore, so they were able to stay a little more "high-brow" for lack of a better term. It was inevitable that this feeling would eventually get carried over into their rules.



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 15:02:20


    Post by: Gert


    Spoiler:
    Tycho wrote:
    I feel like this all started the second they began to actually flesh out the Heresy. Prior to that, CSM in 40k were very similar to their Fantasy counterparts. I remember reading a passage from waaayyyyyyyyy back in the day (no longer recall where it even came from - just that it was old enough to be before the Heresy was anything more than a few blurbs here and there) where a Rogue Trader vessel is boarded by CSMs. The Captain refuses to believe it because "CSM are just myth and rumor. They don't actually exist!" Then he sees them and simply the mere sight of them, the mere reality of 5 CSM actually existing and being in front of him .... was enough to drive him literally mad. On the spot. Right then and there.

    I don't think this is accurate. For most places in the Imperium, it still is very much a case of "What's a Chaos?". CSM only exist in rumour and hearsay, unless the people fighting them have already fought CSM like the forces posted around the Eye of Terror. And while the Regimental Standard is for fun, it's also accurate to how the Imperium would give information to AM troops. "The Heretic Astartes are rare and use outdated weapons or equipment, your trusty Lasgun and Bayonet will pierce their rusted and ruined armour with ease".

    Spoiler:
    Fast forward to 17million Horus Heresy novels later and every single one of the iconic 40k Chaos bad guys is essentially the super-human equivalent of a teenager with daddy issues. Naturally it was an unintended consequence, but it gets hard to take them seriously when every other line is "But father ...."

    That's a massive oversimplification of events courtesy of 4chan. It wasn't just the Traitor Legions that had issues with the Emperor, it was a general fear amongst most Astartes that their time was coming to an end, resigned to inglorious death out in the nowhere of space or to become civilian administrators. The Loyalist Primarchs didn't all love the Emperor unconditionally, many had reservations or issues with Him because he was a terrible person. Hell, the original reason the Dark Angels didn't come to Terra was to wait and see who won before declaring for a side and even now it's still not clear what their motivations are.

    Spoiler:
    Because of the Heresy, Abbadon "The Warmaster of Chaos" is no longer this towering inferno of unkowable chaotic awesomeness - he's basically just a whiney brat trying to out-do his failed/absentee father at his own game. The way it's been executed makes a lot of them un-like-able and kills any empathy you might have had for them, while also removing a lot of the mystery that made them so interesting. They've moved from a Lovecraftian style mystery, to full-on Skeletor style Saturday morning bad guys. I am not as familiar with the Fantasy fluff, but as far as I know, there was never a similar treatment in their lore, so they were able to stay a little more "high-brow" for lack of a better term. It was inevitable that this feeling would eventually get carried over into their rules.

    Abbadon was "Failbaddon the Armless hur hur hur" for way longer than he was anything close to what you describe, again thanks to things like 4chan. CSM have been the punching bag mooks since BL started publishing and the only time they are even a real threat is in books where the CSM are the primary focus.

    Everyone is always so quick to blame 30k for 40k's failings and honestly I'm kind of sick of it. 40k had problems with its setting before the Heresy book series and it sure has problems of its own making after.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 15:12:58


    Post by: Platuan4th


     Gert wrote:
    Hell, the original reason the Dark Angels didn't come to Terra was to wait and see who won before declaring for a side and even now it's still not clear what their motivations are.


    Way back in 2nd ed, it was stated in both the Space Wolves Codex and Angels of Death Codex that while Russ wanted to rush ahead and get to the fight(not even so much because he was worried the Emperor would lose but more that he'd miss out on the glory), Johnson wanted to secure the planets along the route. The "wait and see" thing was added later as speculation as to why Johnson wanted to delay, but the original fluff was to further point out the differences between them(Russ' impetuous need to take action and glory vs Johnson's steady, methodical planning) and why they came to conflict not once, but twice.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 15:53:20


    Post by: Tycho


    I don't think this is accurate. For most places in the Imperium, it still is very much a case of "What's a Chaos?". CSM only exist in rumour and hearsay, unless the people fighting them have already fought CSM like the forces posted around the Eye of Terror. And while the Regimental Standard is for fun, it's also accurate to how the Imperium would give information to AM troops. "The Heretic Astartes are rare and use outdated weapons or equipment, your trusty Lasgun and Bayonet will pierce their rusted and ruined armour with ease".


    Show me where? Read the books. What you're saying isn't even remotely accurate anymore. It used to be "What the hell is that!?" when Chaos showed up. Now it's "Oh no - Chaos is here!" It used to be that there were even a lot of IG units that didn't know about Chaos, and they would instantly be "sterilized" by the Inquisition if they found out. Now it's "Oh no! We're fighting Chaos again!?" The civilian population absolutely had no idea about Chaos. Now it seems like everyone is aware of the "Dark Gods" and no one seems to grapple with what "Demons" are when the show up, or who CSM are. What you are describing hasn't really been true since probably 3rd ed.

    Obviously the secret was out after the fall of Cadia, but the lore damage was done well before that.

    That's a massive oversimplification of events courtesy of 4chan ... SNIP


    Not really no. The intricacies of what happened THEN don't really matter. In the current fluff, it ALWAYS gets distilled to "daddy issues". They didn't really carry that thread to the current times. They lost the subtle parts and kept the "but Dad!"

    EDIT:

    As specific examples, go read the Black Legion and Fabius Bile books. Then come back and seriously try to look me in the eye and tell me I'm wrong here. lol And those are books I actually LIKE (except for the third Bile book which just WAY over did the "wayward son" thing). They lost the subtlety of "What will we do when we are no longer needed?"which, arguably was NEVER a consistent through-line for anyone save a few Ultramarines and Papa Smurf, plus Big E occasionally chiming in, and kept only the part where most of the legions are essentially battling with abandonment issues. lol


    Abbadon was "Failbaddon the Armless hur hur hur" for way longer than he was anything close to what you describe, again thanks to things like 4chan. >snip<


    You know there was a time before the internet yes? Second Ed Abbadon was a pretty bad dude. He became a cartoon later. 4Chan wasn't even a thing back then ...





    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 16:01:27


    Post by: The Red Hobbit


    Tycho wrote:


    Abbadon was "Failbaddon the Armless hur hur hur" for way longer than he was anything close to what you describe, again thanks to things like 4chan. >snip<

    You know there was a time before the internet yes? Second Ed Abbadon was a pretty bad dude. He became a cartoon later. 4Chan wasn't even a thing back then ...

    Agreed, I started when an internet foray depended on those free AOL discs in the mail. Back then Abbadon was the leader of the Chaos Space Marines, the guys you never want to run into. When I got back into 40k many years later I was surprised and a little confused why he was so heavily mocked online. Then I read his track record in the lore since then. Ouch.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 16:01:31


    Post by: Tyran


    Failbaddon is Failbaddon because he failed 12 times and got stabbed by an old woman in the 13th one.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 16:15:37


    Post by: yukishiro1


    Chaos has to fail over and over because of the way the setting is created. The Skeletor comparison is apt at this point. 40k is a setting designed to sell space marine miniatures, the story is just built in service of that, similar to the way that Sunday morning cartoons were built to sell advertising space and action figures.

    I do think there is a point to be made re: all the HH novels dispelling most of the mystery about Chaos, too. That mystery covered for a lack of substance, and now that the mystery has been revealed, so is the lack of substance. Chaos is a lot scarier when it remains a bit mysterious and unexplained. Psychological probing of all the major chaos figures has not augmented their status.

    Accordingly, the more fleshed out Chaos is, the less scary and the more banal. It's exactly like what happened with the White Walkers in Game of Thrones - they went from genuinely scary and unsettling in the early part of the series to Sunday morning cartoons by the end, because none of the reveals could live up to the mystery they replaced.



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 16:35:59


    Post by: Gert


    Spoiler:
    Tycho wrote:

    Show me where? Read the books. What you're saying isn't even remotely accurate anymore. It used to be "What the hell is that!?" when Chaos showed up. Now it's "Oh no - Chaos is here!" It used to be that there were even a lot of IG units that didn't know about Chaos, and they would instantly be "sterilized" by the Inquisition if they found out. Now it's "Oh no! We're fighting Chaos again!?" The civilian population absolutely had no idea about Chaos. Now it seems like everyone is aware of the "Dark Gods" and no one seems to grapple with what "Demons" are when the show up, or who CSM are. What you are describing hasn't really been true since probably 3rd ed.

    You mean like in the Dark Imperium books, the Dawn of Fire books, the Watchers of the Throne books, the Apocalypse tie in novel all of which clearly present the general Imperial populace as ignorant of Chaos and it comes as a supreme shock that CSM exist in such huge numbers or that the Imperium specifically lies and calls Daemons a species of Warp Xenos? Those books? Hell I could go further and talk about the Corpse Grinder Cults on Necromunda who's existence is actively repressed by Lord Helmawr. Or the Eightfold Harvest Lord who is a literal Daemon stalking the Underhive but nobody in the setting knows that.

    Spoiler:
    Not really no. The intricacies of what happened THEN don't really matter. In the current fluff, it ALWAYS gets distilled to "daddy issues". They didn't really carry that thread to the current times. They lost the subtle parts and kept the "but Dad!"

    Which lore are you talking about here? I've got the CSM Codex in front of me and the only time anything close to a "daddy issue" is when the Emperor leaves the Great Crusade with no warning or explanation ar Ullanor. That wasn't even a "daddy issue" because the entire Crusade was shocked and afraid of why the Emperor left at the most vital moment in the Crusade's history.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 16:48:21


    Post by: Tyran


    As Chaos got explored, it was defined as pretty much the "losers" faction, not only because they are the designated antagonists that lose a lot, but because Chaos was defined as weakness given power. I mean, it is falling to Chaos, and you do not fall upwards. Thus Chaos became inherently "weak", because all its characters are Chaos characters because of their character weaknesses. It may be more complex than daddy issues, but all Chaos Primarchs had deep flaws that led to their doom.

    This pretty much stripped Chaos of any mysticism it may have.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 17:05:35


    Post by: Gert


    Tycho wrote:

    As specific examples, go read the Black Legion and Fabius Bile books. Then come back and seriously try to look me in the eye and tell me I'm wrong here. lol And those are books I actually LIKE (except for the third Bile book which just WAY over did the "wayward son" thing). They lost the subtlety of "What will we do when we are no longer needed?"which, arguably was NEVER a consistent through-line for anyone save a few Ultramarines and Papa Smurf, plus Big E occasionally chiming in, and kept only the part where most of the legions are essentially battling with abandonment issues. lol

    The Black Legion series that specifically focuses on how Abbadon hates Horus and constantly calls him a failure? That's not "daddy issues" it's literally what happened in the Heresy. Horus overplayed his hand multiple times because like all the Primarchs he had a planet-sized ego that told him he could never lose.
    As for Bile where the hell are the "daddy issues" there? Bile again has a huge ego that drives him to prove he's smarter than everyone else. The whole point of Bile at that point in his life is that refuses Chaos yet still serves its designs, denies the Gods yet is one of their greatest champions. It takes him getting outsmarted by multiple people for him to mellow and start playing the great game.

    It's also not "daddy issues" if your genetic father is a massive prat who cares more about lounging around eating grapes than actually fighting the Imperium or who led half the Legions in rebellion against the Emperor and still lost because they placed more faith in Daemons and magic than his own sons.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 0015/07/08 17:47:20


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    I think the whole "lore issue" comes down to the book and writer in question.

    Chris Wraight made the Lords of Silence seem like a force of nature. It didn't matter if it was loyalist marines, an entire planet of Imperial humans, or the Word Bearers, they just rolled right over it.

    In the tale of Grendel's World, retold in several codexes, the Night Lords slaughter an entire Imperial world, only to leave it to be discovered later by a single frigate answering an old distress call. They find an entire world that was hunted down and killed, then marked with the symbols of the Eighth Legion so everyone can know who did it. When the world is resettled and the massacre relegated to a folktale, the Eighth Legion return seven thousand years later, and do the exact-same-thing, just so the Imperium knows that they can. Other codex depictions of the Eighth Legion follow this paradigm: terrible reavers from a distant past that appear in a system, slaughter populations, and steal what they want, whether it's armaments or geneseed from loyalist fortress monasteries. ADB's novels follow this as well, with Tenth Company single handily bringing down battleships, space stations, and even a single squad of Chosen killing a titan, and only to be brought down by a concerted effort by a Phoenix Lord and all the forces she could muster. And even then, she ended up stuck to the bottom of a dreadnought's foot like bloody bubblegum for her efforts, with the survivors of Tenth Company eventually realizing her fears of uniting the Legion to threaten her people in the end.

    Meanwhile, whenever Guy Haley gets ahold of either Legion he turns either into blundering, addled, mustache twirlers. There's lots of BL books, it depends on which you read.

    The real issue is the in-game rules for CSM: they don't feel like monsters from the distant past, armed with supernatural powers, ancient weapons, and millennia of experience anymore. They feel like inferior versions of loyalist marines, instead of previous editions when they felt like their terrible forebears. They can still work, but only with gamey buff stacking and combos, not as a true cohesive force. Death Guard have that again, and I hope the next CSM codex does the same for the other Legions.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 17:54:52


    Post by: The Red Hobbit


     Gadzilla666 wrote:

    The real issue is the in-game rules for CSM: they don't feel like monsters from the distant past, armed with supernatural powers, ancient weapons, and millennia of experience anymore. They feel like inferior versions of loyalist marines, instead of previous editions when they felt like their terrible forebears.

    Pretty much sums up my experience. My introduction to CSM was 3rd / 4th and they were a force to be reckoned with on the tabletop. Their prowess seemed directly linked to their lore which as you summed up meant ancient warriors who appear from the warp with supernatural powers and/or ancient weapons. An abominable legend turned real. When I came back to the game I was surprised by how wimpy they had gotten when I started a CSM army. Too bad power balance is determined by which model line sells like hotcakes.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 18:20:36


    Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


    I fancy really boiling this down.

    Bear with me, as I’m likely to wander off course.

    In Fantasy, Chaos Warriors were terrifying opponents. All their stats were comfortably above average. They had better than average armour to boot. In short, in a battle of attrition they’d do pretty well.

    And that was reflected in the background to boot. Chaos Warriors, let alone Chosen and Champions slaughter regular peeps. Their main weakness was their nature, and their lower numbers. Much like Orcs, but to a slightly lesser degree, taking out their leader would cause infighting which the Good Guys could capitalise on.

    Their powers were Gods Given. They were literally swollen with borrowed power, so even a relative weakling in their previous life could become a Jason Voorhees type monstrosity.

    40K? Their best warriors are Naughty Marines who in the modern day gain no in-game advantage over their Goody Two Shows brethren. They’ve not been swollen with power. They’ve just gone mad, dusty, kinky or manky. Which is…..really odd, when you think about it. Decades, centuries or even millennia of service to their Dark Masters and all they’ve got are outdated weapons and snazzier looking armour.

    Basically, they’re Just Not Scary.

    Now, in AoS we of course have Stormcast Eternals. For those well versed in the original chaos background (where the Gods are unable or unwilling to tell a beneficial gift from a detrimental one, so their servants were all over the shop in terms of deadliness), they’re Chaos Warriors created by a sane and considerate deity.

    They’re a deadly but finite resource, and much of Sigmar’s tribulations stem from his foe’s attempts to prevent reforging. And of course the risks involved in reforging which can and does go horribly wrong on occasion. It also, by all accounts, really really hurts.

    Yet Chaos Warriors remain fearsome, despite now having the same theoretical issue as Chaos Marines - equal and opposite numbers. Why? There’s just far, far more of them.

    In the ongoing Fantasy setting, Chaos hasn’t just won, but won twice. They’re still the predominant threat to the Mortal Realms, but are facing varying degrees of opposition from pretty much everyone else.

    Sure, Orcs aren’t going to make a formal pact with anyone but themselves, Gobbos and Ogres. But they’ve no qualms at all about taking the fight to Chaos because the fightin’ is much better there than the Good Guys.

    Nagash and his Mortarchs? Nobody else can trust them, other than they’ll knack Chaos first if given the choice, and may even act in concert with Order or Destruction, one way or the other. Because Sigmar might well be a soul thief, but Chaos huffed and puffed and blew Nagash’s house down, so are higher up the list of ‘people owed a good kicking’.

    Order? OK. Kinda nominally unified. Certainly more likely to stick to the word of the alliance, and often the spirit for now.

    None of the above (barring Fyreslayers, who just want Ur Gold) will be terribly keen to actively ally with Chaos, because it threatens all of them equally. Sure, Death might use a bit of cunning to divert a Chaos force to go knack someone else, but never a formal alliance. Certainly not one they’ve the slightest intention of sticking to.

    Yet Chaos remains the central threat. Archaon must be stopped. Because all the time he and his forces are arseing around, it could be your City next. You can bargain with him or Chaos. You can’t reason with them.

    Even with the other three Grand Alliances pitched against them? Chaos is still enjoying the upper hand.

    Chaos in 40K? Just…..not so much. At all. They’re feeling background underpowered compared to Nids (they just keep coming), Imperium (functionally infinite resources and numbers), Necrons (another ever increasing threat). Yes they had a great victory with the Cicatrix Thingy…..but not a complete one. Again, they just seem to lack the numbers to properly consolidate.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 03:27:00


    Post by: Rihgu


    None of the above (barring Fyreslayers, who just want Ur Gold) will be terribly keen to actively ally with Chaos


    Well... except (Broken Realms spoiler)
    Spoiler:
    Lady Olynder
    , of course


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 18:30:13


    Post by: Gert


    I'm sure Mannfred will find a way to ruin everything for everyone soon enough.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 18:37:48


    Post by: Racerguy180


    gw just flat out hasn't done 40k chaos justice since the Realm of Chaos books.

    Plague Marines & Rubrics feel more like how chaos is portrayed in general. Berserkers do berserker things, so i feel they're closer to preAOS khornate worshippers. Noise Marines have a decent feel to them, but slannesh in 40k just seems kinda phoned in.

    The real problems are with how they treat the other legions and renegades. Normal CSM(just Traitor, not chaos) should be a close approximation to loyal first born with some dishonorable tactics thrown in for rounding them out. Then kinda degenerate from there as they get more chaosy.



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 18:58:35


    Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


    Rihgu wrote:
    None of the above (barring Fyreslayers, who just want Ur Gold) will be terribly keen to actively ally with Chaos


    Well... except (Broken Realms spoiler)
    Spoiler:
    Lady Olynder
    , of course


    Only sort of, kinda, ish.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 21:33:46


    Post by: Tycho


    The Black Legion series that specifically focuses on how Abbadon hates Horus and constantly calls him a failure? That's not "daddy issues" it's literally what happened in the Heresy. Horus overplayed his hand multiple times because like all the Primarchs he had a planet-sized ego that told him he could never lose.
    As for Bile where the hell are the "daddy issues" there? Bile again has a huge ego that drives him to prove he's smarter than everyone else. The whole point of Bile at that point in his life is that refuses Chaos yet still serves its designs, denies the Gods yet is one of their greatest champions. It takes him getting outsmarted by multiple people for him to mellow and start playing the great game.

    It's also not "daddy issues" if your genetic father is a massive prat who cares more about lounging around eating grapes than actually fighting the Imperium or who led half the Legions in rebellion against the Emperor and still lost because they placed more faith in Daemons and magic than his own sons.


    You realize that all of this is ... quite literally .... the definition of Daddy Issues right? And the Bile books - did you not read the last one? The one that was centered almost entirely on the through-line that Bile hates his "dad" and wants nothing to do with him and his failures, and how the entire book was pretty much about getting him to forcibly reunite with his estranged father in order to get him to "join Chaos"? lol

    Also - RE: books - I have read the Dark Imperium books - they - they don't support your opinion. Haven't read Dawn of Fire so can't speak to it really. But there will always be sections of the Imperium where people don't know about Chaos so you can find some examples (I can think of some stuff around the Tau - since they don't draw much of a warp Signature, and since the human colonies on the fringes where the Tau are tend to be very small - you don't have much "Chaos" happening anyway), but the point is, there was a time, when almost NOBODY knew about Chaos. There were even Space Marine Chapters, who did not actually know about Chaos . They just let it get too far out of the bag and now we have the cartoonification.

    gw just flat out hasn't done 40k chaos justice since the Realm of Chaos books.

    Plague Marines & Rubrics feel more like how chaos is portrayed in general. Berserkers do berserker things, so i feel they're closer to preAOS khornate worshippers. Noise Marines have a decent feel to them, but slannesh in 40k just seems kinda phoned in.

    The real problems are with how they treat the other legions and renegades. Normal CSM(just Traitor, not chaos) should be a close approximation to loyal first born with some dishonorable tactics thrown in for rounding them out. Then kinda degenerate from there as they get more chaosy.


    That's funny. I never thought of it before, but the Rubrics do feel more like how the Chaos Warriors in Fantasy were portrayed. SIlent, unkowable killing machines form beyond. Not on the table top of course - there they just kind of ... deploy and die ... BUT IN THE BOOKS YOU SEE .... lol

    I think Slaanesh is in a tough place. That's the one god where, if GW form "back then" could have seen how big they would be, and the limitations that would subsequently be placed on them RE: "Mature Themes", I don't know that they would have done Slaanesh.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 21:52:37


    Post by: Gert


    Tycho wrote:

    You realize that all of this is ... quite literally .... the definition of Daddy Issues right? And the Bile books - did you not read the last one? The one that was centered almost entirely on the through-line that Horus hates his "dad" and wants nothing to do with him and his failures, and how the entire book was pretty much about getting him to forcibly reunite with his estranged father in order to get him to "join Chaos"? lol

    It really isn't. Father complex in psychology is a complex—a group of unconscious associations, or strong unconscious impulses—which specifically pertains to the image or archetype of the father. These impulses may be either positive (admiring and seeking out older father figures) or negative (distrusting or fearful). It's not a father complex when
    The Chaos Legions aren't looking for the Primarchs to tell them what a good job they did at burning down the Imperium. They aren't seeking out father figures to relate to because they still have those figures, most just hate them for legitimate reasons like putting rage-inducing murder chips in their heads. The NL don't hate Curze because they have daddy issues, they hate him because everyone but Sanguinius hates him, Curze was quite possibly one of the worst people of all time. Hell, most of the Legions still actively work for their Primarchs and in some cases love them. The Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons all still follow their Primarchs because they want to do so. It's only specific individuals that don't follow their Primarchs, Typhus and Bile being examples. Typhus doesn't follow Mortarion post-Heresy because Typhus is dedicated to Nurgle now, not his Legion. I still disagree that Bile has daddy issues because he was a prat to everyone before Fulgrim and is a prat now. Fulgrim didn't cause Bile to hate everything, the Blight and a collosal ego did.
    The Legions hate Horus and his Legion pre-BL days because Horus was Warmaster and promised them the place in the Imperium they had fought for and deserved. He promised them victory, led them down the path of damnation, and then lost. If you told me we were going to win a sports tournament and then started telling me to take loads of steroids, then we lost, I'd be mad because you screwed me for nothing. That's not daddy issues.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Tycho wrote:

    Also - RE: books - I have read the Dark Imperium books - they - they don't support your opinion. Haven't read Dawn of Fire so can't speak to it really. But there will always be sections of the Imperium where people don't know about Chaos so you can find some examples (I can think of some stuff around the Tau - since they don't draw much of a warp Signature, and since the human colonies on the fringes where the Tau are tend to be very small - you don't have much "Chaos" happening anyway), but the point is, there was a time, when almost NOBODY knew about Chaos. There were even Space Marine Chapters, who did not actually know about Chaos . They just let it get too far out of the bag and now we have the cartoonification.

    You can't expect the background to stay the same from 1st Edition when 40k wasn't even 40k. You can't have a faction in the game that nobody knows exists because then how would that faction be in the game. CSM are treated like punching bags yes absolutely but if Dan Abnett was writing about Marines from the Iron Warriors being readily known about by a Commisar in 1999, your point about "nobody should know who CSM are" is fairly rubbish.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 22:24:15


    Post by: Altima


    Basically, the issue is that Chaos is portrayed like orcs and goblins are portrayed in other media.

    They're there to be just deadly enough to be a credible threat but ultimately to lose and make the heroes (usually Space Marines) look even better.

    Narratively, they come across as pests. Or orks. They come out in these great waaaaghs/black crusades, create some mayhem, eventually get beaten back, then crawl back into their holes.

    The only difference is that orks have empires and worlds and whatnot that they defend. Chaos hides the bulk of its forces in the Eye of Terror where the Imperium cannot go. It gives a whole feeling of no matter how badly Chaos gets stomped in, they can't actually lose anything important.

    Of course, if CSM's were mostly in realspace, the Imperium would probably destroy itself trying to annihilate them. Which might actually be a narratively interesting challenge for Guilliman if the return of a primarch hadn't been turned into Just Another Thing.

    As for 40k vs. AoS, well, AoS doesn't have a single, overbearing faction strangling the IP the way 40k does. In 40k, everyone sucks compared to space marines, in every aspect of the hobby.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 23:04:13


    Post by: TinyLegions


    My theory is that Chaos in WFB was the space marine equivalent to WFB in that it was a personal favorite to someone up top. Therefore, GW pushed that out more, and made sure that it got its proper due. On top of that it tended to be a dual role between WFB and 40K somewhat. At one point they shared Daemons officially.(I know full well that unofficially that was always the case)


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 23:51:31


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


    I hate the entire notion of "Nobody knows about Chaos!". Perhaps the Warp/Daemon side of things isn't well-known throughout the Imperium, but the idea that every time the Ruinous Powers show up in force (either via traitor human elements or CSMs) everyone goes "What are those?" is just laughable.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/08 23:59:05


    Post by: Tycho


    It really isn't. Father complex in psychology is a complex—a group of unconscious associations, or strong unconscious impulses—which specifically pertains to the image or archetype of the father. These impulses may be either positive (admiring and seeking out older father figures) or negative (distrusting or fearful). It's not a father complex when
    The Chaos Legions aren't looking for the Primarchs to tell them what a good job they did at burning down the Imperium. They aren't seeking out father figures to relate to because they still have those figures, most just hate them for legitimate reasons like putting rage-inducing murder chips in their heads. The NL don't hate Curze because they have daddy issues, they hate him because everyone but Sanguinius hates him, Curze was quite possibly one of the worst people of all time. Hell, most of the Legions still actively work for their Primarchs and in some cases love them. The Word Bearers, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons all still follow their Primarchs because they want to do so. It's only specific individuals that don't follow their Primarchs, Typhus and Bile being examples. Typhus doesn't follow Mortarion post-Heresy because Typhus is dedicated to Nurgle now, not his Legion. I still disagree that Bile has daddy issues because he was a prat to everyone before Fulgrim and is a prat now. Fulgrim didn't cause Bile to hate everything, the Blight and a collosal ego did.
    The Legions hate Horus and his Legion pre-BL days because Horus was Warmaster and promised them the place in the Imperium they had fought for and deserved. He promised them victory, led them down the path of damnation, and then lost. If you told me we were going to win a sports tournament and then started telling me to take loads of steroids, then we lost, I'd be mad because you screwed me for nothing. That's not daddy issues.



    It is 100% the short-hand, scifi version of daddy issues. In your example, am I your dad? No? Right. Not really the same is it?

    The problem is, CSM should be the most wild, diverse, and "out-there" group in the entire setting. But as of the third Bile book - I could write a line about "Our Father's failed legacies", and you could have almost ANY of the main CSM characters say it. The EXACT same line in the EXACT same way, and it would not feel out of character for them. This is the issue. 90% of them got boiled down to ... that. "You know how we hate our dads!? And you know that thing they ried to get us to do and failed at?And you know how we are super angry at them for leading us into Chaos? Well now we're gonna go do THE EXACT SAME THING! But it'll be different this time! We'll show those losers!"

    It's just a slightly different take on needing their "dad's" approval and it's so old at this point. Sure, Bile was always a tool. But one of the reasons I liked him previously was because he really was different. The Heresy? What? No. Don't care. "Abbadon's Black Crusade?" Yeah. Whatevs. I'm good. Just gonna chill here in my sanctum and run a evil medical school. Thanks though. Unfortunately, they took him down the same path. In fact, Bile is actually worse now in this light. He absolutely WAS seeking his "dad's approval" in a way. So desperate to get the final Clone "correct". So desperate to bring back "The Old Fulgrim". Not unlike what he did to try and bring back the "Original Horus" - so now he's not too different form all the others. I'm not sure you read the books?

    Meanwhile, GW have managed to take Ultramarines, the blandest army of the blandest faction, and actually create unique and identifiable characters that stand out from one another and are identifiable and ... well ... fleshed out at all. Yet CSM have become largely cookie-cutter - Insert standard CSM trope here - characters.

    It's sad when the newer factions like the Crimson Slaughter are actually more interesting and less tiresome than the bad guys that helped spawn the franchise.

    You can't expect the background to stay the same from 1st Edition when 40k wasn't even 40k. You can't have a faction in the game that nobody knows exists because then how would that faction be in the game. CSM are treated like punching bags yes absolutely but if Dan Abnett was writing about Marines from the Iron Warriors being readily known about by a Commisar in 1999, your point about "nobody should know who CSM are" is fairly rubbish.


    So .. I never once said it shouldn't have changed. Did you really read what I wrote? Seems like the general consensus is that it's fairly accurate. What I said was that the way in which it unfolded, inevitably led to what we have now. As far as "Having a faction no one knows about" again, I think you're misunderstanding me. Because we essentially had that in 1st and second. Since you seem to want to ascribe all issues to 4chan memes my guess is you started late fourth? Granted we can toss out ROgue Trader. The setting really starts with 2nd ed. And in second ed, they were truly a mysterious lovcraftian kind of enemy. Back then, if a Large Chaos ship suddenly appeared in orbit above a planet, it was cause for confusion and utter panic as the populace tried to work out what the thing even was. Just one weird ship was enough to cause it. Now, a ship appears above a planet and they know exactly what is, where it came from, the last known location, who is currently crewing it, and just about everything else. OF COURSE SOME people knew about Chaos. But they were a larger, scarier threat because of the big secret. SO secret that the Inquisition was willing to risk open war against the Space Wolves to keep it a secret. Now THAT is an enemy.

    Now it's just "Oh hey guys. You here to blaze a path to Terra again? Ok. Welp, I'll let the Ultras know. Good luck. I'm sure you'll show 'em this time." Like I said, they unravelled it in such a way that the cartoonification was almost inevitable. GW struggles with the subtle, and the whole "Unknowable Beyond" thing really requires subtlety. If you grew up on bolter porn and 4Chan, I can see where you would legit struggle to understand how this could possibly work in a game, but it does. It's actually been done successfully many times. They just lost control of the reigns as the franchise got bigger and bigger and the needed more and more content to fill the need.

    The 4Chan stuff was never the disease. It was a symptom. They wouldn't be so effective if they weren't darn near 100% accurate ...

    I hate the entire notion of "Nobody knows about Chaos!". Perhaps the Warp/Daemon side of things isn't well-known throughout the Imperium, but the idea that every time the Ruinous Powers show up in force (either via traitor human elements or CSMs) everyone goes "What are those?" is just laughable.


    Again, it's not that nobody knows them. It's that they shouldn't be so ho-hum common place. As I said - post-Cadia Chaos is pretty much out of the bag Imperium wide. But the damage was done well before that.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 00:38:39


    Post by: Gert


    Spoiler:
    Tycho wrote:

    It is 100% the short-hand, scifi version of daddy issues. In your example, am I your dad? No? Right. Not really the same is it?

    No, it isn't, it's a trash meme made up by 4chan chuds who thought they were funny.
    Horus was only the "father" of one Legion. Every other Traitor Legion didn't follow him because he was their gene-father.

    Spoiler:
    The problem is, CSM should be the most wild, diverse, and "out-there" group in the entire setting. But as of the third Bile book - I could write a line about "Our Father's failed legacies", and you could have almost ANY of the main CSM characters say it. The EXACT same line in the EXACT same way, and it would not feel out of character for them. This is the issue. 90% of them got boiled down to ... that. "You know how we hate our dads!? And you know that thing they ried to get us to do and failed at?And you know how we are super angry at them for leading us into Chaos? Well now we're gonna go do THE EXACT SAME THING! But it'll be different this time! We'll show those losers!"

    That's not how CSM are presented. The NL hate Curze because he was just flat-out awful. Some Tsons saw hubris in Magnus's actions but most didn't. The DG love Mortarion because of Nurgle happy time. The Word Bearers worship Lorgar for enlightening them to the True Faith. The Iron Warriors don't really care. The World Eaters are too angry to care and now that they all serve Khorne they'll follow Angron regardless. The Emperor's Children just want to bask in Fulgrims beauty again because Slaanesh. Everyone hates Horus because he was a failure in their eyes, they didn't know the Gods' plan always for Horus to fail. Not a single Legion's goals are driven by "my gene-father didn't love me enough".

    Spoiler:
    It's just a slightly different take on needing their "dad's" approval and it's so old at this point. Sure, Bile was always a tool. But one of the reasons I liked him previously was because he really was different. The Heresy? What? No. Don't care. "Abbadon's Black Crusade?" Yeah. Whatevs. I'm good. Just gonna chill here in my sanctum and run a evil medical school. Thanks though. Unfortunately, they took him down the same path. In fact, Bile is actually worse now in this light. He absolutely WAS seeking his "dad's approval" in a way. So desperate to get the final Clone "correct". So desperate to bring back "The Old Fulgrim". Not unlike what he did to try and bring back the "Original Horus" - so now he's not too different form all the others. I'm not sure you read the books?

    Bile made the clones because he saw the Primarchs as weak for falling to Chaos and thought that if they were uncorrupted by Daemons and Gods then the Traitors would have won the Heresy. Did you read the books?

    Spoiler:
    It's sad when the newer factions like the Crimson Slaughter are actually more interesting and less tiresome than the bad guys that helped spawn the franchise.

    The Crimson Slaughter are interesting because they're new. That's it. They haven't been seen before and their lore is a new story. The Chaos Legions have been doing the same things since time began because the timeline doesn't move in 40k. The Dragonspears are more interesting than their founding Chapter, the Salamanders because the Dragonspears are new and have no stories about them yet.

    Spoiler:
    So .. I never once said it shouldn't have changed. Did you really read what I wrote? Seems like the general consensus is that it's fairly accurate. What I said was that the way in which it unfolded, inevitably led to what we have now. As far as "Having a faction no one knows about" again, I think you're misunderstanding me. Because we essentially had that in 1st and second. Since you seem to want to ascribe all issues to 4chan memes my guess is you started late fourth? Granted we can toss out ROgue Trader. The setting really starts with 2nd ed. And in second ed, they were truly a mysterious lovcraftian kind of enemy. Back then, if a Large Chaos ship suddenly appeared in orbit above a planet, it was cause for confusion and utter panic as the populace tried to work out what the thing even was. Just one weird ship was enough to cause it. Now, a ship appears above a planet and they know exactly what is, where it came from, the last known location, who is currently crewing it, and just about everything else. OF COURSE SOME people knew about Chaos. But they were a larger, scarier threat because of the big secret. SO secret that the Inquisition was willing to risk open war against the Space Wolves to keep it a secret. Now THAT is an enemy.

    Who knows about the CSM, the general populace or the higher-ups with access to classified information? As for the events of Armageddon 1, the Inquisition tried to keep that under wraps because of the specific nature of who the enemy was. It wasn't some random mook Warband looking for supplies, it was Angron, Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters leading legions upon legions of Daemons. The Inquisition still mindwipes or purges as many people it can after an interaction with Daemons because of their insidious nature. Who cares if the Imperial forces beat a CSM Warband because as far as those forces know that's the only Warband they'll ever have to worry about.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 01:36:47


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    Tycho wrote:
    I hate the entire notion of "Nobody knows about Chaos!". Perhaps the Warp/Daemon side of things isn't well-known throughout the Imperium, but the idea that every time the Ruinous Powers show up in force (either via traitor human elements or CSMs) everyone goes "What are those?" is just laughable.


    Again, it's not that nobody knows them. It's that they shouldn't be so ho-hum common place. As I said - post-Cadia Chaos is pretty much out of the bag Imperium wide. But the damage was done well before that.

    Meh, that's everyone, again, depending on the author. Look at Tyranids: they used to be inscrutable, unknowable. Now it's just "The bugs are back again, get the swatters". Other Xenos suffer the same way. And loyalists. They used to be so rare that most Imperials would never lay eyes on them, legends. Now they're in every battle theater. Some authors handle the setting better, actually realizing how huge the entire galaxy is, and how bad communication and information sharing is for the greater Imperium. Others devalue it to B-grade comic book fare. The same happens to any setting with as much media as 40k.

    Again, it comes back to the actual codexes and the rules and lore presented in them. For several editions gw hasn't been able to decide if CSM are a malevolent force striking from the distant past and the very Heart of Hell, or a bunch of cartoon villains that look like they sprung from the album cover of a bad thrash band from somebody's garage.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 04:48:22


    Post by: yukishiro1


    They wrote themselves into a rules corner with primaris, CSM were already struggling even before that as the gimp version of marines, but post-primaris, the power disparity is even more stark. The obviously thing to do was lean into the daemonic side of things, but for whatever reason they didn't do that and instead just made them bargain basement marines. CSM aren't far off stormtroopers now in terms of their general uselessness.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 07:10:28


    Post by: Altima


    yukishiro1 wrote:
    They wrote themselves into a rules corner with primaris, CSM were already struggling even before that as the gimp version of marines, but post-primaris, the power disparity is even more stark. The obviously thing to do was lean into the daemonic side of things, but for whatever reason they didn't do that and instead just made them bargain basement marines. CSM aren't far off stormtroopers now in terms of their general uselessness.


    Personally, I think the obvious thing would be to lean away from Chaos Space Marines as the de facto Chaos faction and start including the rest of Chaos in the faction.

    Bring out the Dark Mechanicus. Bring in traitor guard and chaos followers that are an actual functional army instead of psychotic cultists. Have CSM's acting as part of a larger Chaos force that includes daemons and mortal guard equivalent, beast mutants, dark mechanicus hell engines, etc.

    As long as CSM's are 'just' spikey marines, they'll always be behind the curve since Space Marines will *always* be updated first and *always* receive the best ongoing support.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 07:14:07


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    yukishiro1 wrote:
    They wrote themselves into a rules corner with primaris, CSM were already struggling even before that as the gimp version of marines, but post-primaris, the power disparity is even more stark. The obviously thing to do was lean into the daemonic side of things, but for whatever reason they didn't do that and instead just made them bargain basement marines. CSM aren't far off stormtroopers now in terms of their general uselessness.

    How is leaning into the "daemonic side" going to help CSM, as in the actual unit, when they don't have the DAEMON keyword? CSM need their veteran status compared to loyalists back. They shouldn't be less, or equal, to TACs. They should be better. And Chosen should be troops and better than a bunch of thin blooded muscle heads too. Same goes for the various Cult Marines (but only troops in their respective Legions). Millennia of experience and selling your soul should be worth more than a few extra organs.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 07:16:37


    Post by: Not Online!!!


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    I hate the entire notion of "Nobody knows about Chaos!". Perhaps the Warp/Daemon side of things isn't well-known throughout the Imperium, but the idea that every time the Ruinous Powers show up in force (either via traitor human elements or CSMs) everyone goes "What are those?" is just laughable.


    Also, not knowing is not protection see quote of mine.


    Just sadly GW forgot about that snippet....


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    yukishiro1 wrote:
    They wrote themselves into a rules corner with primaris, CSM were already struggling even before that as the gimp version of marines, but post-primaris, the power disparity is even more stark. The obviously thing to do was lean into the daemonic side of things, but for whatever reason they didn't do that and instead just made them bargain basement marines. CSM aren't far off stormtroopers now in terms of their general uselessness.

    How is leaning into the "daemonic side" going to help CSM, as in the actual unit, when they don't have the DAEMON keyword? CSM need their veteran status compared to loyalists back. They shouldn't be less, or equal, to TACs. They should be better. And Chosen should be troops and better than a bunch of thin blooded muscle heads too. Same goes for the various Cult Marines (but only troops in their respective Legions). Millennia of experience and selling your soul should be worth more than a few extra organs.


    As much as i agree with thise sentiment in regards to legionaires...
    I don't think that will happen.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 07:38:26


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    yukishiro1 wrote:
    They wrote themselves into a rules corner with primaris, CSM were already struggling even before that as the gimp version of marines, but post-primaris, the power disparity is even more stark. The obviously thing to do was lean into the daemonic side of things, but for whatever reason they didn't do that and instead just made them bargain basement marines. CSM aren't far off stormtroopers now in terms of their general uselessness.

    How is leaning into the "daemonic side" going to help CSM, as in the actual unit, when they don't have the DAEMON keyword? CSM need their veteran status compared to loyalists back. They shouldn't be less, or equal, to TACs. They should be better. And Chosen should be troops and better than a bunch of thin blooded muscle heads too. Same goes for the various Cult Marines (but only troops in their respective Legions). Millennia of experience and selling your soul should be worth more than a few extra organs.


    As much as i agree with thise sentiment in regards to legionaires...
    I don't think that will happen.

    Why not? It would be so easy. Plague Marines are already more durable than primaris in Death Guard armies. Add a second wound to Berzerkers and they'll be equally as durable as primaris, but more deadly in melee without any other changes. The same will be true for the other Cult Marines in their respective specialties. Give Chosen 2W and troops status for the Undivided Legions, so they have obsec, and keep all of their current stats and options, and they'll be just as good at range as standard intercessors and in melee as Assault Intercessors. It wouldn't be difficult. Add functional Legion traits, and we're getting somewhere.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 07:43:18


    Post by: BrianDavion


    I think you're making the mistake of assuming commonality of knowledge in universe is the same as that OUT of universe. aalmost all the stories we see are from the point of view of fairly highly placed people in the IoM your average clerk on necromundia likely knows NOTHING of chaos, but yes, a space marine captain does.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 08:33:20


    Post by: narrative_forger


    Is this a question in game? or lore?

    If it's in-game, they are not scary because they are basically marine -. Heck, the name sake unit is basically usually passed over for the cheaper cultists. Rules wiise too CSM is waaaay outdated and their global rule DtFE is too restricted (only for Imperium.... thankfully ALOT of Imperium players out there) or just straight up unused (Daemon Summoning... like seriously GW... this is what you come up with for CSM rule? This should be a strat). I don't agree with making chosen into troops because that would make CSM (the unit) even more undesirable than it is now. Chosen should be glutted with the blessing of the chaos gods, mutations to augment their prowess, skilled on warfare matters, dedicated to their patron (Gods or Warlord).... instead we got CSM +1 attack, a belt clip to put that chainsword, and a strap on their bolter... like really GW? Basically they really need to go back to the drawing board and stop using Gav Thorpe;s tripe codex from 4th as basis.

    As for In lore, well... if we read the Chaos books they are actually portrayed as fearsome, deadly, and powerful.... if you read the Imperium ones... they are bumbling fools only to be dispatched by loyalists. Heck even Word Bearers are badass in their books instead of the jobber they are in every other books (including Chaos ones).

    Just my 2 cents.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 09:52:58


    Post by: moreorless


    TinyLegions wrote:
    My theory is that Chaos in WFB was the space marine equivalent to WFB in that it was a personal favorite to someone up top. Therefore, GW pushed that out more, and made sure that it got its proper due. On top of that it tended to be a dual role between WFB and 40K somewhat. At one point they shared Daemons officially.(I know full well that unofficially that was always the case)


    I suspect part of it was that Chaos was arguably the most original faction in WFB, the others were mostly pretty direct lifts from other fantasy settings were as Chaos was a bit more of a melting pot of designs and ideas. I think GW were also very keen on the Skaven and the Chaos Dwarfs back in the day because they also introduced a bit more originality.

    I do also think the way GW defines the setting outside of the models themselves has shifted a lot, especially with 40K. Back in the day I think you could argue that in the 80's to at least the mid 90's the most important medium for that wasnt novels or detailed writting it was art, Chaos generally I think owes a lot of its style to the likes of Ian Miller, that kind of "Punk Bosch" style illustration. That really suited chaos being more of an unknown mystical threat rather than something that needed to be defined by character or some kind of direct plot.

    I would say as well that despite GW's attempts to make 40K more dynamic really the basic setting was always one of grining grimness, a setting of slow decline of knowledge and a grand uncaring universe not one were there was a very immediate threat of destruction. More of a Frank Herbert setting rather than a Tolkien one as in WFB.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 09:54:56


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    narrative_forger wrote:
    Is this a question in game? or lore?

    If it's in-game, they are not scary because they are basically marine -. Heck, the name sake unit is basically usually passed over for the cheaper cultists. Rules wiise too CSM is waaaay outdated and their global rule DtFE is too restricted (only for Imperium.... thankfully ALOT of Imperium players out there) or just straight up unused (Daemon Summoning... like seriously GW... this is what you come up with for CSM rule? This should be a strat). I don't agree with making chosen into troops because that would make CSM (the unit) even more undesirable than it is now. Chosen should be glutted with the blessing of the chaos gods, mutations to augment their prowess, skilled on warfare matters, dedicated to their patron (Gods or Warlord).... instead we got CSM +1 attack, a belt clip to put that chainsword, and a strap on their bolter... like really GW? Basically they really need to go back to the drawing board and stop using Gav Thorpe;s tripe codex from 4th as basis.

    As for In lore, well... if we read the Chaos books they are actually portrayed as fearsome, deadly, and powerful.... if you read the Imperium ones... they are bumbling fools only to be dispatched by loyalists. Heck even Word Bearers are badass in their books instead of the jobber they are in every other books (including Chaos ones).

    Just my 2 cents.

    Right. Chosen should stay in the Elites slot, be "glutted with the blessing of the Chaos Gods", and have mutations. I don't know what ever Possessed me to think otherwise. Seriously, we already have a unit for that. Chosen are Veteran Heretic Astartes, and should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions, just like Cult Marines are troop choices for their respective Legions. It would give us something to truly compete with intercessors. 2W CSM would be our TAC equivalent. They're the recently converted, either because they're Renegades or more newly created Heretic Astartes. I don't see why loyalists should have, what is it now? Five troops choices? While we're stuck with two.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 10:38:50


    Post by: Jidmah


    You don't need five troops choices if your two don't suck...


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 10:43:53


    Post by: StrayIight


     Gadzilla666 wrote:

    Right. Chosen should stay in the Elites slot, be "glutted with the blessing of the Chaos Gods", and have mutations. I don't know what ever Possessed me to think otherwise. Seriously, we already have a unit for that. Chosen are Veteran Heretic Astartes, and should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions, just like Cult Marines are troop choices for their respective Legions. It would give us something to truly compete with intercessors. 2W CSM would be our TAC equivalent. They're the recently converted, either because they're Renegades or more newly created Heretic Astartes. I don't see why loyalists should have, what is it now? Five troops choices? While we're stuck with two.


    Couldn't agree more.

    Chosen should be the veterans of the Long War. There should be a tangible difference between a individual who has been alive and fighting for 10,000 years plus, and a relatively newly minted, 41st millennium marine.

    We don't see that at all currently.

    I'm confused by the individuals talking about Chaos 'not having the numbers' to be a threat too. Where are we getting that idea? The Heresy split the forces of the Imperium roughly in half (note the legions that were loyal, and those that were not). Remember too that they were kicking around in massive expeditionary fleets at the time, filled with non Astartes military elements. The Mechanicum, also split in two - at least half going to Horus.

    Now add the size of the Imperium, and the fact that travel is risky across much of it. The fact that the Imperium is fighting nigh constant internal and external wars across several fronts, and add a potentially limitless number of Daemons...

    I see no numbers problem on the spikey side here. Not where common sense is applied above fan service (which is the fundamental issue - CSM tend to be designed to lose because there is an inherent bias in the writing, almost certainly due to the fiscal one on the shelves).

    That's why they don't appear scary. Poor writing, and a lack of investment/focus from GW. They have a golden calf faction in 40K, and I don't believe that's the case in AoS.

    I don't really have an issue with Space Marines - though they are not my thing. I do wonder how much of their popularity is self perpetuated, and whether the community - and game - wouldn't be far richer for all if that focus was spread around some though.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 11:04:12


    Post by: narrative_forger


     Gadzilla666 wrote:

    Right. Chosen should stay in the Elites slot, be "glutted with the blessing of the Chaos Gods", and have mutations. I don't know what ever Possessed me to think otherwise. Seriously, we already have a unit for that. Chosen are Veteran Heretic Astartes, and should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions, just like Cult Marines are troop choices for their respective Legions. It would give us something to truly compete with intercessors. 2W CSM would be our TAC equivalent. They're the recently converted, either because they're Renegades or more newly created Heretic Astartes. I don't see why loyalists should have, what is it now? Five troops choices? While we're stuck with two.


    Whoa calm down...... Let's go over this. If i think of mutated.... the one i'm thinking is me growing an eye on my forehead. Or tentacles growing from my back. Or i got scaly skins, or Acid Blood. If i think POSSESSED... i got a daemon inhibiting my body... and i transform into that daemon. As par per lore. Didn't i also say that the current chosen is unsatisfying since it only a CSM +1 attack and a belt clip for chainsword and strap for their bolter? Totally agree with the state of Chosen being sad. But that doesn't mean i agree with downgrading chosen to Troops Status making CSM even more undesirable. And what's wrong with only 2 troops choice besides diversity? Chosen should be special.... not grunts level.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 11:07:43


    Post by: BrianDavion


    narrative_forger wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:

    Right. Chosen should stay in the Elites slot, be "glutted with the blessing of the Chaos Gods", and have mutations. I don't know what ever Possessed me to think otherwise. Seriously, we already have a unit for that. Chosen are Veteran Heretic Astartes, and should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions, just like Cult Marines are troop choices for their respective Legions. It would give us something to truly compete with intercessors. 2W CSM would be our TAC equivalent. They're the recently converted, either because they're Renegades or more newly created Heretic Astartes. I don't see why loyalists should have, what is it now? Five troops choices? While we're stuck with two.


    Whoa calm down...... Let's go over this. If i think of mutated.... the one i'm thinking is me growing an eye on my forehead. Or tentacles growing from my back. Or i got scaly skins, or Acid Blood. If i think POSSESSED... i got a daemon inhibiting my body... and i transform into that daemon. As par per lore. Didn't i also say that the current chosen is unsatisfying since it only a CSM +1 attack and a belt clip for chainsword and strap for their bolter? Totally agree with the state of Chosen being sad. But that doesn't mean i agree with downgrading chosen to Troops Status making CSM even more undesirable. And what's wrong with only 2 troops choice besides diversity? Chosen should be special.... not grunts level.


    I think when people say "make chosen troops" what they're actually saying is "get rid of chosen and make the basic CSM have the level of options chosen have"


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 11:10:26


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     Jidmah wrote:
    You don't need five troops choices if your two don't suck...

    Well I'm just shooting for three. We already have a preview of what will happen to Cultists from the Death Guard codex: no faction traits or obsec, just cheap fodder. How would you make basic CSM "not suck"? Keep in mind your stuck with the options in the new kit: it's either bolters or chainswords. We already know the rules for both. How many rules do you have to stack on them to make them work? Especially if Cultists lose obsec and aren't a viable option anymore outside of cheap screens and filling slots?

    @StrayIight: 100% agreed.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    narrative_forger wrote:
    Spoiler:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:

    Right. Chosen should stay in the Elites slot, be "glutted with the blessing of the Chaos Gods", and have mutations. I don't know what ever Possessed me to think otherwise. Seriously, we already have a unit for that. Chosen are Veteran Heretic Astartes, and should be a troops choice for the Undivided Legions, just like Cult Marines are troop choices for their respective Legions. It would give us something to truly compete with intercessors. 2W CSM would be our TAC equivalent. They're the recently converted, either because they're Renegades or more newly created Heretic Astartes. I don't see why loyalists should have, what is it now? Five troops choices? While we're stuck with two.


    Whoa calm down...... Let's go over this. If i think of mutated.... the one i'm thinking is me growing an eye on my forehead. Or tentacles growing from my back. Or i got scaly skins, or Acid Blood. If i think POSSESSED... i got a daemon inhibiting my body... and i transform into that daemon. As par per lore. Didn't i also say that the current chosen is unsatisfying since it only a CSM +1 attack and a belt clip for chainsword and strap for their bolter? Totally agree with the state of Chosen being sad. But that doesn't mean i agree with downgrading chosen to Troops Status making CSM even more undesirable. And what's wrong with only 2 troops choice besides diversity? Chosen should be special.... not grunts level.

    So, Possessed, just without the Daemon inside them? That's what that sounds like to me.

    The point of making Chosen "grunt level" is to make CSM "grunts" better than loyalist "grunts", like they were in previous editions. 10 millennia of experience and taking a Mark should have that effect. Our "grunts" should be able to take on the lesser loyalist elites. Not terminators, but definitely Vanguard Veterans, as the average Legionaire has way more experience than those guys.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 11:29:58


    Post by: Jidmah


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    You don't need five troops choices if your two don't suck...

    Well I'm just shooting for three. We already have a preview of what will happen to Cultists from the Death Guard codex: no faction traits or obsec, just cheap fodder. How would you make basic CSM "not suck"? Keep in mind your stuck with the options in the new kit: it's either bolters or chainswords. We already know the rules for both. How many rules do you have to stack on them to make them work? Especially if Cultists lose obsec and aren't a viable option anymore outside of cheap screens and filling slots?


    Bring back marks, add a stratagem or two, give the icons rules that don't suck, improved support characters that aren't just for hitting even harder in combat you never reach, meaningful legion traits, a doctrine equivalent which the current codex is missing...


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 11:39:04


    Post by: Galas


    I like the idea of 2w Chosen troops with a veteran hability that you can pick like combat drugs.



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 11:40:35


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     Jidmah wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    You don't need five troops choices if your two don't suck...

    Well I'm just shooting for three. We already have a preview of what will happen to Cultists from the Death Guard codex: no faction traits or obsec, just cheap fodder. How would you make basic CSM "not suck"? Keep in mind your stuck with the options in the new kit: it's either bolters or chainswords. We already know the rules for both. How many rules do you have to stack on them to make them work? Especially if Cultists lose obsec and aren't a viable option anymore outside of cheap screens and filling slots?


    Bring back marks, add a stratagem or two, give the icons rules that don't suck, improved support characters that aren't just for hitting even harder in combat you never reach, meaningful legion traits, a doctrine equivalent which the current codex is missing...

    All of which would also help Chosen. Just like they help your T5 -1 to all damage boys. Why shouldn't the Undivided Legions have an equivalent to Cult Marines as troops? You're just leaving us with spikey TACs and cheap fodder.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Galas wrote:
    I like the idea of 2w Chosen troops with a veteran hability that you can pick like combat drugs.


    Me too. Bring back Veteran Abilities.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 12:08:53


    Post by: Jidmah


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    All of which would also help Chosen. Just like they help your T5 -1 to all damage boys. Why shouldn't the Undivided Legions have an equivalent to Cult Marines as troops? You're just leaving us with spikey TACs and cheap fodder.


    I think you are expecting way too much from chosen. They are literally the same as CSM except they have an extra attack and a lot of wargear options that are not in the kit... uh-oh.
    Worst case you'll see chosen end up like bloodbrides or trueborn, where you pay some points to amp up basic CSM.

    Whether you fix regular CSM or invalidate them by putting a better datasheet in the same slot isn't that different. And yes, for legions where a signature unit makes sense (Night Lords come to mind), there should be the option to do that.



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 12:14:24


    Post by: Xyxel


    One rule is missing for CSM to be tasty different from SM (while using the same stats and equipment).
    Skavens in Warhammer Battle had it and it worked nicely and in accordance with fluff.

    "Life if cheap". Basically CSM would be able to shoot to any combating enemy units. If by 50% chance You hit your unit then so be it. For the glory of Chaos Gods!

    Send the horde of cultists or mutants (or CSM squads that You don't trust) toward enemy and then shoot them all togehter! Muahahaha.
    Tell me that wouldn't be climatic. : )


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 12:25:55


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     Jidmah wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    All of which would also help Chosen. Just like they help your T5 -1 to all damage boys. Why shouldn't the Undivided Legions have an equivalent to Cult Marines as troops? You're just leaving us with spikey TACs and cheap fodder.


    I think you are expecting way too much from chosen. They are literally the same as CSM except they have an extra attack and a lot of wargear options that are not in the kit... uh-oh.
    Worst case you'll see chosen end up like bloodbrides or trueborn, where you pay some points to amp up basic CSM.

    Whether you fix regular CSM or invalidate them by putting a better datasheet in the same slot isn't that different. And yes, for legions where a signature unit makes sense (Night Lords come to mind), there should be the option to do that.


    I just expect them to be better than basic CSM with 2W. That's all. And I share those fears about Chosen going the way of Trueborn. That's why I'm hoping we get an actual kit for them.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 12:53:46


    Post by: Grimtuff


     Xyxel wrote:
    One rule is missing for CSM to be tasty different from SM (while using the same stats and equipment).
    Skavens in Warhammer Battle had it and it worked nicely and in accordance with fluff.

    "Life if cheap". Basically CSM would be able to shoot to any combating enemy units. If by 50% chance You hit your unit then so be it. For the glory of Chaos Gods!

    Send the horde of cultists or mutants (or CSM squads that You don't trust) toward enemy and then shoot them all togehter! Muahahaha.
    Tell me that wouldn't be climatic. : )


    DG have that exact rule as a stratagem for the Terminus Est list. It’s called “callous disregard”.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 13:00:04


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    GW should go ahead and remove the CP cost of bringing "relics"
    Let us take FW vehicles without the unneeded tax.

    Then let the legions keep their identity even if we run out of CP
    Then remove the reliance of the codex and VotlW+EC, that gak is boring as feth.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 13:15:14


    Post by: Orthon


    Cultists will lose obsec? Pretty much the same points as a guardsmen but with worse armor, weapons, no orders, no traits, and no obsec. Wow, they will be worthless. Might as well just take Daemon troops because the legion traits suck anyway and GW has no ability to write good ones. +1 LD and rapid fire weapons become assault is trash for Black Legion for example compared to what loyalists get.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 13:20:09


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    Orthon wrote:
    Cultists will lose obsec? Pretty much the same points as a guardsmen but with worse armor, weapons, no orders, no traits, and no obsec. Wow, they will be worthless. Might as well just take Daemon troops because the legion traits suck anyway and GW has no ability to write good ones. +1 LD and rapid fire weapons become assault is trash for Black Legion for example compared to what loyalists get.


    why be so pessimistic about legion traits? every other one in the new codexes has received a buff, i fully expect our new ones to be better.
    And its a good thing if cultists end up never taken, were CSM, not evil Astra militarum


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 13:23:15


    Post by: Not Online!!!


     Jidmah wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    All of which would also help Chosen. Just like they help your T5 -1 to all damage boys. Why shouldn't the Undivided Legions have an equivalent to Cult Marines as troops? You're just leaving us with spikey TACs and cheap fodder.


    I think you are expecting way too much from chosen. They are literally the same as CSM except they have an extra attack and a lot of wargear options that are not in the kit... uh-oh.
    Worst case you'll see chosen end up like bloodbrides or trueborn, where you pay some points to amp up basic CSM.

    Whether you fix regular CSM or invalidate them by putting a better datasheet in the same slot isn't that different. And yes, for legions where a signature unit makes sense (Night Lords come to mind), there should be the option to do that.



    Except that is not true, Chosen are the next in line for a "promotion" As are terminators.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     VladimirHerzog wrote:
    Orthon wrote:
    Cultists will lose obsec? Pretty much the same points as a guardsmen but with worse armor, weapons, no orders, no traits, and no obsec. Wow, they will be worthless. Might as well just take Daemon troops because the legion traits suck anyway and GW has no ability to write good ones. +1 LD and rapid fire weapons become assault is trash for Black Legion for example compared to what loyalists get.


    why be so pessimistic about legion traits? every other one in the new codexes has received a buff, i fully expect our new ones to be better.
    And its a good thing if cultists end up never taken, were CSM, not evil Astra militarum


    Except thats also not true for Iron warriors and Alpha legion.
    But then again the legion trait abominations that we got now are only half the issue since we can't even represent the rather diffrent forces the legions encompass technically either .... Also considering GW still insists on the 4th edition dex catastrophy which has made it baseline worse every new edition nothing in that regards will happen either.
    So tell me, is there a reason to be actually optimistic?


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 13:48:36


    Post by: catbarf


    Orthon wrote:
    Cultists will lose obsec? Pretty much the same points as a guardsmen but with worse armor, weapons, no orders, no traits, and no obsec. Wow, they will be worthless.


    It's a damn shame how points and equipment are carved in stone and can never ever be changed, nor can the rules possibly give new capabilities or a new role to a unit that is currently not being used in its intended manner.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 13:51:20


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    VladimirHerzog wrote:GW should go ahead and remove the CP cost of bringing "relics"
    Let us take FW vehicles without the unneeded tax.

    Then let the legions keep their identity even if we run out of CP
    Then remove the reliance of the codex and VotlW+EC, that gak is boring as feth.

    Agreed. Numbers 2 and 3 are likely. Vets will probably stick around, but go to 2CP like for Death Guard. Cacophony will probably be gone. Number 1 is "iffy" though. Gw's rules writers don't seem up on their own lore.

    Orthon wrote:Cultists will lose obsec? Pretty much the same points as a guardsmen but with worse armor, weapons, no orders, no traits, and no obsec. Wow, they will be worthless. Might as well just take Daemon troops because the legion traits suck anyway and GW has no ability to write good ones. +1 LD and rapid fire weapons become assault is trash for Black Legion for example compared to what loyalists get.

    They did for Death Guard. If they do for us it's all the more reason we need something else in the troops slot than TACs with spikes.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 16:21:22


    Post by: Crimson


     Da Boss wrote:
    I don't find that aspect of the background enjoyable at all, for me the setting was a place to invent and create, not to catalogue. To each their own.

    My interaction on the background forum and here gradually convince me that I'm not really a fan of 40K, just my idea of it that I constructed with limited information when I was younger.

    It's sad but it seems to be the case.


    I feel you. I came to pretty similar realisation a while a go myself. Though the tone of the setting has definitely changed. The seeds for the things I dislike were always there, but they've grown to take over the whole thing. Ultimately I have realised that the things I like about 40K are not the things a lot of other people like about it. Like for example I've came to the conclusion that primarchs were a mistake. They were mildly interesting when they were distant myths, but even that wasn't really needed. And of course now everything is warped around that inane superhero soap opera. But people love that. Mentally I have kinda checked out of the current 40k fandom.

    But it is also somewhat freeing. I no don't care about the official fluff that much any more. I just take the pieces I like and make my own headcanon. I still love the models and play the game occasionally.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 17:16:20


    Post by: The_Real_Chris


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    CSM need their veteran status compared to loyalists back. They shouldn't be less, or equal, to TACs. They should be better. And Chosen should be troops and better than a bunch of thin blooded muscle heads too. Same goes for the various Cult Marines (but only troops in their respective Legions). Millennia of experience and selling your soul should be worth more than a few extra organs.


    Yep, currently as I look across all the power armour options in 40k the ones that are most like how I would imagine chaos to be are the Deathwatch. Ironic they capture a disparate warband better than Chaos does.

    I would love the building blocks of my warband to be cultists (10-20 strong human unit with mix of weapons options, some legions would allow you to add a CSM as a leader), renegades (essentially tactical marine equivalent as recent turncoats or new astartes), or deathwatch style options. All of these should get a god specific boon if equal to the sacred number (6/7/8/9) and as part of that number be able to take cult marines. However if you take cult marines you can only get that God boost if the marines match the god (no plague marines in a unit that wants to be eight strong and dedicated to Khorne). So option of X strong Veteran/Chosen unit to which you can add terminators, bikers, possessed, raptors, Havocs and cult marines (Berzerkers, Noise and plague marines - no rubrics though you should be a nifty tzentch boost to make up for that).

    Mono god cult marine units go into elite slots unless your warlord is dedicated to a certain god in which case they become troops choices.

    I would also shift regular tiny Marine gear into the list to show them with the spoils of recent war and the range of common heresy gear (so Whirlwinds, Flak Rhino's, landspeeders, etc.). A generic conversion sprue would give those models a new chaotic go at life.

    I would love there to be the right choices and rules that reward thematic lists. Hell even one stereotype per legion. More than just a trait. So say Alpha Legion could be the GSC of the CSM world and could have allied Imperial Guard Detachments. Word bearers could add a CSM to lead a unit of cultists and have demon units as elite slots on the table at the beginning of the game. Red Corsairs could get the Brotherhood of Veterans Stratagem from the deathwatch to show off their former members using the skills from their previous lives. Iron Warriors get to add Imperial artillery options (or at least basilisks) and so on.



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 17:27:19


    Post by: Sgt. Cortez


    All of these designs GW's left behind a long time ago. Holy numbers occasionally are mentioned in the Daemons Codex and the 7used in many DG auras, but other than that they're dead as a concept for squad building.
    Even Plague Marines that are sold in a Box of 7(!) only support rules for a squad of 5 or 10.

    You also won't see any crossovers between Codizes aside from Cult units that are an outlier and might only be there as long as EC and WE aren't fleshed out. GW simply doesn't like that unfortunately, even Daemons are nowadays hard to ally with CSM and I wouldn't be surprised if any Cross Codex synergies are dead after a new CSM or Daemons Codex.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 17:31:52


    Post by: Gert


    Plague Marines actually can be taken in squads of 7, at least you could. Maybe its different now.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 17:40:07


    Post by: catbarf


    The_Real_Chris wrote:
    I would love the building blocks of my warband to be cultists (10-20 strong human unit with mix of weapons options, some legions would allow you to add a CSM as a leader), renegades (essentially tactical marine equivalent as recent turncoats or new astartes), or deathwatch style options.


    That's a good point that ties back to the idea of Chosen being Troops. It essentially gives you four core choices that shape your force:
    -Cultists, being your GEQ chaff
    -CSM, basic renegades
    -Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
    -Cult Marines, amped up on their god's favor

    And that gives you four different directions to lean into for Your Dudes. Bands of cultists led by a few Marines, recently-converted or newly-made CSM, dead-hard Deathwatch-equivalent ancient Chaos Marines, or the god-specific forces.

    It would let CSM be both Tactical equivalents and amped-up monsters seething with power from the Eye of Terror. Let players pick what archetype they want to lean into.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 17:54:03


    Post by: Gert


    Oooh that's sounds like a noice idea.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 18:26:52


    Post by: Da Boss


    Yeah, that's what I've been thinking about. You'd have a few different classes of troop. You could even have the current "Marine Minus" to represent the various scum that the Legions uplift to space marines with stolen geneseed and the like.

    My own Word Bearers force is two big blobs of cultists, chosen, possessed, raptors, a some characters and a Hellbrute. I really like the fact that the vast majority of models are lowly cultists, and I'll ally in a bunch of demons. The Word Bearers are there as leaders and elites. (That said, this force is designed for GDF and I have no idea how it would work in 40K).


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 20:52:28


    Post by: The Red Hobbit


    moreorless wrote:

    I do also think the way GW defines the setting outside of the models themselves has shifted a lot, especially with 40K. Back in the day I think you could argue that in the 80's to at least the mid 90's the most important medium for that wasnt novels or detailed writing it was art, Chaos generally I think owes a lot of its style to the likes of Ian Miller, that kind of "Punk Bosch" style illustration. That really suited chaos being more of an unknown mystical threat rather than something that needed to be defined by character or some kind of direct plot.

    I would say as well that despite GW's attempts to make 40K more dynamic really the basic setting was always one of grinning grimness, a setting of slow decline of knowledge and a grand uncaring universe not one were there was a very immediate threat of destruction. More of a Frank Herbert setting rather than a Tolkien one as in WFB.


    Hit the nail on the head for that one. For myself and many of my peers we were drawn into 40k due to the artwork depicting a very bizarre but evocative setting. One you wanted to learn about but had enough sense to keep the mystery alive so it wasn't open kimono from the get go. Contrast that with the Horus Heresy which has been hugely popular but unfortunately takes away a lot of that mystery, especially when 40k becomes more and more dependent on what happened in 30k. So while we started with "slow decline" and uncaring universe the series is currently in a metamorphosis towards a setting where the future will be determined by the important characters. Something you'd expect out of a comic book or a D&D style game, which coincidentally are wildly popular at the moment.

    Sure hope GW chasing trends doesn't bite it in the ass, but so far it's been great for business.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 21:08:05


    Post by: Tyel


    You are going to get chaos Intercessors and like it.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 21:12:50


    Post by: Crimson


    Tyel wrote:
    You are going to get chaos Intercessors and like it.

    That would be an improvement.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 21:21:47


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    catbarf wrote:
    The_Real_Chris wrote:
    I would love the building blocks of my warband to be cultists (10-20 strong human unit with mix of weapons options, some legions would allow you to add a CSM as a leader), renegades (essentially tactical marine equivalent as recent turncoats or new astartes), or deathwatch style options.


    That's a good point that ties back to the idea of Chosen being Troops. It essentially gives you four core choices that shape your force:
    -Cultists, being your GEQ chaff
    -CSM, basic renegades
    -Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
    -Cult Marines, amped up on their god's favor

    And that gives you four different directions to lean into for Your Dudes. Bands of cultists led by a few Marines, recently-converted or newly-made CSM, dead-hard Deathwatch-equivalent ancient Chaos Marines, or the god-specific forces.

    It would let CSM be both Tactical equivalents and amped-up monsters seething with power from the Eye of Terror. Let players pick what archetype they want to lean into.

    This ^^^^. Thank you Catbarf, for putting it into words better than me.

    Crimson wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
    You are going to get chaos Intercessors and like it.

    That would be an improvement.

    No, it wouldn't. Keep your Primaris out of my Chaos Space Marines!


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 21:57:36


    Post by: Arachnofiend


    Tyel wrote:
    You are going to get chaos Intercessors and like it.

    They had an opportunity to make chaos intercessors with Bile and specifically chose not to and instead updated the existing CSM models, I think the door is closed there.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/09 22:32:05


    Post by: AnomanderRake


     Arachnofiend wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
    You are going to get chaos Intercessors and like it.

    They had an opportunity to make chaos intercessors with Bile and specifically chose not to and instead updated the existing CSM models, I think the door is closed there.


    Never say never. They've overwritten or discontinued models an edition after releasing them before, and the pace of the release schedule has been accelerating.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 01:25:57


    Post by: jeff white


     catbarf wrote:
    Spoiler:
    The_Real_Chris wrote:
    I would love the building blocks of my warband to be cultists (10-20 strong human unit with mix of weapons options, some legions would allow you to add a CSM as a leader), renegades (essentially tactical marine equivalent as recent turncoats or new astartes), or deathwatch style options.


    That's a good point that ties back to the idea of Chosen being Troops. It essentially gives you four core choices that shape your force:
    -Cultists, being your GEQ chaff
    -CSM, basic renegades
    -Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
    -Cult Marines, amped up on their god's favor

    And that gives you four different directions to lean into for Your Dudes. Bands of cultists led by a few Marines, recently-converted or newly-made CSM, dead-hard Deathwatch-equivalent ancient Chaos Marines, or the god-specific forces.

    It would let CSM be both Tactical equivalents and amped-up monsters seething with power from the Eye of Terror. Let players pick what archetype they want to lean into.

    Exalted.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 04:09:43


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     StrayIight wrote:
    Chosen should be the veterans of the Long War. There should be a tangible difference between a individual who has been alive and fighting for 10,000 years plus, and a relatively newly minted, 41st millennium marine.
    So the Chosen are the HH veterans and all my Chaos Marines are just whomever happened to join in recent years?

    No. Hell no!

    I want my Chaos Marine army to be a Chaos Marine army, not "A handful of actual Chaos Marines + a bunch of Marines they picked up along the way".

     catbarf wrote:

    -CSM, basic renegades
    -Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
    I fundamentally reject this structure.

    CSMs are not just 'basic renegades', nor should they be.



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 05:48:05


    Post by: Blndmage


     Tyran wrote:
    Lovecraftian horror doesn't work with 40k as a setting, because 40k is an action setting.

    Horror is a mostly low scale genre in which the protagonist is horribly out of their depth. Horror doesn't work when you have to represent a large scale strategic situation, and much less when the protagonists literally Know No Fear.

    You can have a horror story set in a war, but you cannot have a horror story about war, if you understand the difference.


    3rd Ed Necrons were dripping with Lovecraftian horror. That's what drew me to them.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 07:18:47


    Post by: BrianDavion


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    VladimirHerzog wrote:GW should go ahead and remove the CP cost of bringing "relics"
    Let us take FW vehicles without the unneeded tax.

    Then let the legions keep their identity even if we run out of CP
    Then remove the reliance of the codex and VotlW+EC, that gak is boring as feth.

    Agreed. Numbers 2 and 3 are likely. Vets will probably stick around, but go to 2CP like for Death Guard. Cacophony will probably be gone. Number 1 is "iffy" though. Gw's rules writers don't seem up on their own lore.

    Orthon wrote:Cultists will lose obsec? Pretty much the same points as a guardsmen but with worse armor, weapons, no orders, no traits, and no obsec. Wow, they will be worthless. Might as well just take Daemon troops because the legion traits suck anyway and GW has no ability to write good ones. +1 LD and rapid fire weapons become assault is trash for Black Legion for example compared to what loyalists get.

    They did for Death Guard. If they do for us it's all the more reason we need something else in the troops slot than TACs with spikes.



    sisters of battle say Hi


    but yeah cultists will lose obsec etc count on it. GW has with 9th edition been clearly trying to address the "scout problem" namely people using non power armor cheap units as their troops so that a space marine army was sometimes notable for a lack of space marines


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 09:57:59


    Post by: StrayIight


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     StrayIight wrote:
    Chosen should be the veterans of the Long War. There should be a tangible difference between a individual who has been alive and fighting for 10,000 years plus, and a relatively newly minted, 41st millennium marine.
    So the Chosen are the HH veterans and all my Chaos Marines are just whomever happened to join in recent years?

    No. Hell no!

    I want my Chaos Marine army to be a Chaos Marine army, not "A handful of actual Chaos Marines + a bunch of Marines they picked up along the way".

     catbarf wrote:

    -CSM, basic renegades
    -Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
    I fundamentally reject this structure.

    CSMs are not just 'basic renegades', nor should they be.



    I have a terrible feeling we'll end up arguing semantics here, but lets see if we can land somewhere constructive.

    So in lore, we know that the 'CSM' faction, consists of both Veteran Astartes from the Heresy era, and before it, and also Astartes that have defected/been created post this time. Agreed?

    I think all that's being argued is that both of our varieties are currently represented by a singular unit, and said unit is awful in comparison to the absolute greenest loyalist Marine.

    It'd be nice if we could have both types represented in the rules, with the former getting an in game presence that reflects their veteran status. Chosen seem a perfect unit to improve to allow this, and many of us feel that additionally, they'd be best as an appropriately costed troops entry - not necessarily elites.

    I'm not sure how that hurts 'your guys'. Surely as they are now, all you have is head canon making them anything special - the rules certainly don't.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 10:53:10


    Post by: BrianDavion


    So on the subject of story wise, I just read a spoiler for how Charadon turns out if true the outcome is that...


    Spoiler:
    Typhus infects Metallica and thus the forge world is basicly "dead" and Belakor turns the home world of knight house raven into his personal deamon world


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 12:03:38


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     StrayIight wrote:
    It'd be nice if we could have both types represented in the rules, with the former getting an in game presence that reflects their veteran status. Chosen seem a perfect unit to improve to allow this, and many of us feel that additionally, they'd be best as an appropriately costed troops entry - not necessarily elites.
    I disagree.

    Chosen are something specific. Chosen =/= HH vets. Chosen don't even have to be HH vets to be 'Chosen'.

    I think HH vets should have representation via veteran abilities, and Renegades with better equipment.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 12:10:39


    Post by: Crimson


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     StrayIight wrote:
    It'd be nice if we could have both types represented in the rules, with the former getting an in game presence that reflects their veteran status. Chosen seem a perfect unit to improve to allow this, and many of us feel that additionally, they'd be best as an appropriately costed troops entry - not necessarily elites.
    I disagree.

    Chosen are something specific. Chosen =/= HH vets. Chosen don't even have to be HH vets to be 'Chosen'.

    I think HH vets should have representation via veteran abilities, and Renegades with better equipment.


    You have again gotten stuck on pointless semantic difference. Whether they're called 'chosen' or something else doesn't matter, like it doesn't matter if bigger and nastier ork boy is called 'skarboy' or 'beastsnagga.' There should be a big difference between noob CSM and ten-thousand-year-old warp-powered eternal warrior. And that difference should be more than just some veteran skill. Veteran skill is what you give to an IG soldier who served for a decade and survived.




    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 12:38:44


    Post by: Galas


    I dont know why people calls tacticals marines the greenest of the loyalist when by that point they have served décades as assault and devastator marines.
    And time=/= better.

    Chosen are a good baseline to represent both veteran and proper chosen Chaos marines with some veteran habilites/Chaos boons.

    What the unit is exactly called does not Matter just as I can play my bullgryns using antbot models, the rules work just fine to represent them


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 12:43:34


    Post by: Sgt. Cortez


    BrianDavion wrote:
    So on the subject of story wise, I just read a spoiler for how Charadon turns out if true the outcome is that...


    Spoiler:
    Typhus infects Metallica and thus the forge world is basicly "dead" and Belakor turns the home world of knight house raven into his personal deamon world


    So a Chaos victory for once? Yay!
    Admittedly Vigilus was more or less burned down and starved after the campaign, too. Yes, Abby left, but most people were dead, the water was contaminated and if I recall correctly they even moved the planet out of its orbit or something along the lines. I remember reading Vigilus 1 and thinking, well, why is Abby even bothering to attack, the planet is practically dead already


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 13:01:21


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     Crimson wrote:
    You have again gotten stuck on pointless semantic difference.
    No I haven't, because what they are called should matter.

     Crimson wrote:
    ... like it doesn't matter if bigger and nastier ork boy is called 'skarboy' or 'beastsnagga.'
    Yes it does. Skarboyz are something specific in the fluff. Beastsnaggas are something different. They are different things.

     Crimson wrote:
    There should be a big difference between noob CSM and ten-thousand-year-old warp-powered eternal warrior.
    I agree, but not all thousand-year-old warp-powered eternal warriors are Chosen. You do not become a Chosen by dint of being around when the HH occurred.

     Crimson wrote:
    And that difference should be more than just some veteran skill.
    Why? It's how it was done before, and it worked fine there.



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 13:11:38


    Post by: Crimson


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    No I haven't, because what they are called should matter.

    Yes it does. Skarboyz are something specific in the fluff. Beastsnaggas are something different. They are different things.

    This is you engaging in pointless semantics. It's the same basic concept. Rose by any other name and all that.

    I agree, but not all thousand-year-old warp-powered eternal warriors are Chosen. You do not become a Chosen by dint of being around when the HH occurred.
    Chosen are just veteran CSM. If fighting ten millennia doesn't make you a veteran, I don't know what does.

    Why? It's how it was done before, and it worked fine there.
    It was pathetic. Normal marine veterans with a century or two experience were better. A ten-thousand-year-old warp-fuelled veteran should be significantly better than some 150-year-old Ultra who fought couple of nids, and definitely not worse.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 13:20:01


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     StrayIight wrote:
    It'd be nice if we could have both types represented in the rules, with the former getting an in game presence that reflects their veteran status. Chosen seem a perfect unit to improve to allow this, and many of us feel that additionally, they'd be best as an appropriately costed troops entry - not necessarily elites.
    I disagree.

    Chosen are something specific. Chosen =/= HH vets. Chosen don't even have to be HH vets to be 'Chosen'.

    I think HH vets should have representation via veteran abilities, and Renegades with better equipment.

    Why would a bunch of Renegades have better equipment than actual Veterans of the Long War? They'd have less relics from the Heresy as well as less access to the Dark Mechanicus because of their lower standing. Renegades are the definition of the "warbands" that gw stuck all CSM as being represented by in the 4th edition codex and beyond.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 13:48:16


    Post by: Platuan4th


     Crimson wrote:
    Chosen are just veteran CSM. If fighting ten millennia doesn't make you a veteran, I don't know what does.


    No, Chosen are the hand-picked, favored warriors of the Chaos Lord they serve. That's always been their fluff. The fact they occupy the same role in game as "Veteran" Marines( whatever that's actually supposed to mean beyond being good enough to be picked[often after some heroic deed] to serve in the First Company since every actual Marine on the field is a veteran of several campaigns by the time they "graduate" the Scout program) has no bearing on their actual "veteran" status within the army. Chosen still exist within Renegade Chapters such as the Crimson Slaughter(hell, the only actual Chosen models we have are Crimson Slaughter Chosen) and has nothing to do with the length of time they serve.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 13:53:58


    Post by: Crimson


     Platuan4th wrote:
     Crimson wrote:
    Chosen are just veteran CSM. If fighting ten millennia doesn't make you a veteran, I don't know what does.


    No, Chosen are the hand-picked, favored warriors of the Chaos Lord they serve. That's always been their fluff. The fact they occupy the same role in game as "Veteran" Marines( whatever that's actually supposed to mean beyond being good enough to be picked[often after some heroic deed] to serve in the First Company since every actual Marine on the field is a veteran of several campaigns by the time they "graduate" the Scout program) has no bearing on their actual "veteran" status within the army. Chosen still exist within Renegade Chapters such as the Crimson Slaughter(hell, the only actual Chosen models we have are Crimson Slaughter Chosen) and has nothing to do with the length of time they serve.


    Right. So they're veteran CSM, like first company loyalists are. Except with CSM there is potential to be insanely more experienced than a loyalist would. Now could there be some ten-millennia-old veteran CSM that have not earner the technical rank of chosen for some reason? Sure. But in game terms you could still represent those with the chosen profile. Getting bogged down to the fluff minutiae is pointless and counterproductive.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 13:58:36


    Post by: Platuan4th


     Crimson wrote:

    Right. So they're veteran CSM, like first company loyalists are. Except with CSM there is potential to be insanely more experienced than a loyalist would.


    There's also the potential with CSM to be insanely less experienced because the boss really likes you on your first day. You could just tell really funny jokes and the Chaos Lord decides you're in his inner circle now. That's why making the comparison to Loyalist First Company is bad, because there's literally NO qualifications behind being a Chosen beyond "the boss picked you".


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 14:01:53


    Post by: Crimson


     Platuan4th wrote:

    There's also the potential with CSM to be insanely less experienced because the boss really likes you on your first day. That's why making the comparison to Loyalist First Company is bad, because there's literally NO qualifications behind being a Chosen beyond "the boss picked you".


    And if your chosen happen to be scrubs that just bought beers to the chaos lord you can represent them with the normal CSM. The nomenclature doesn't matter, what matter's is that there are proper mechanical representations for both noob CSM and millennia-old warp-powered monstrosities.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 14:07:26


    Post by: Gert


    Spoiler:
     Platuan4th wrote:

    No, Chosen are the hand-picked, favored warriors of the Chaos Lord they serve. That's always been their fluff. The fact they occupy the same role in game as "Veteran" Marines( whatever that's actually supposed to mean beyond being good enough to be picked[often after some heroic deed] to serve in the First Company since every actual Marine on the field is a veteran of several campaigns by the time they "graduate" the Scout program) has no bearing on their actual "veteran" status within the army. Chosen still exist within Renegade Chapters such as the Crimson Slaughter(hell, the only actual Chosen models we have are Crimson Slaughter Chosen) and has nothing to do with the length of time they serve.

    What Chaos Lord is choosing the newly ascended rookie CSM as his Chosen though? They're going to choose the best fighters or those most loyal to them, coincidentally that will be the Warband veterans.
    When Talos became leader of his Warband in the NL trilogy, he kept First Claw as his "Chosen". Honsou surrounded himself with the best killers under his command. The Chosen from Dark Vengeance are the former 1st Company of the Crimson Sabres.
    So yeah, Chosen should absolutely be the "undivided" veteran unit.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 14:16:45


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     Platuan4th wrote:
     Crimson wrote:

    Right. So they're veteran CSM, like first company loyalists are. Except with CSM there is potential to be insanely more experienced than a loyalist would.


    There's also the potential with CSM to be insanely less experienced because the boss really likes you on your first day. You could just tell really funny jokes and the Chaos Lord decides you're in his inner circle now. That's why making the comparison to Loyalist First Company is bad, because there's literally NO qualifications behind being a Chosen beyond "the boss picked you".

    From CSM 3.5, page 24:
    The Chosen are the elite of a Chaos Space Marine army. Drawn from the most experienced and capable warriors of the Traitor Legions, they have literally thousands of years of experience. These men have ruled planets, led armies and destroyed civilizations; they are the Chosen of the Chaos Gods and the bane of all that lives.
    Emphasis mine.

    Because "The boss picked you". Yeah right. Chosen are literally Veteran Heretic Astartes. The longest lived and most experienced. And allowing CSM to bring them as troops would go a long way to alleviating the problem of "Chaos sucking in 40k so much more than in the Fantasy universe". Because if those are the troops, what does the rest of the army look like......


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 14:26:35


    Post by: Gert


    The biggest issue I'm seeing is why bother with normal CSM if you can just take Chosen.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 14:27:25


    Post by: ArcaneHorror


    Chosen can be 10,000 year-old veterans, extremely corrupted Marines bloated with power, both, or possibly neither.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:02:18


    Post by: Galas


     Gert wrote:
    The biggest issue I'm seeing is why bother with normal CSM if you can just take Chosen.


    Why botter with tacticals if you have intercessors? A couple of different stratagems and equipement options goes a long way.

    But I agree they are too close to be confortable with GW finding a proper place for both of them.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:10:18


    Post by: Gert


    Yeah, but what different equipment do Chosen and CSM have? Intercessors are strictly Bolt weapons only, Tacticals can take heavy and special weapons. They might both be troops but the don't cancel each other out, especially now since Tacticals have the same wounds.
    Chosen are just better versions of CSM already, throw them in a Troops slot and CSM become completely obsolete. Unless Chosen don't get <Core> but then that's just another unit in the Troops section that doesn't have ObSec.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:16:09


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     Crimson wrote:
    This is you engaging in pointless semantics.
    Say that over and over, it'll never be true. So give it a fething rest.

    And Skarboy vs Beast Snagga isn't semantics either. They are literally different things in the fluff.



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:23:17


    Post by: StrayIight


    Well, it kind of is true. You're not alone in doing so, and I hear your point, but debating what label something should have, or the definition of what we think Chosen are/aren't is pointless semantics. It doesn't progress the discussion one iota.

    Forget the labels, whether they refer to something we have currently, or not. Purely conceptually, what would you do, to give CSM options that represent both the 10K + year old veteran, and the 'standard' line Astartes that has defected or been created since.

    Call them whatever you will, it's the crunch concepts that will progress discussion and are interesting - not label definitions.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:24:02


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


    It. Is. Not. Semantics.

    Crunch should be informed by the fluff. In the fluff, Chosen =/= HH veterans where as Chaos Marines =/= the renegade friends we made along the way. The crunch should reflect this. Chaos Marines can be 10,000 year old Veterans, and they can be Loyalist Marines that gave the Emperor the middle finger last week. Ditto for Chosen. They represent different things within different forces of heretics.

    Saying that Chosen are HH veterans and that's all they are is simply not true.

     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Why would a bunch of Renegades have better equipment than actual Veterans of the Long War?
    Is that even a real question? It's been one of the biggest problems representing Renegade Marines in-game, because as soon as a Marine Chapter turns against the Emperor they have to give up all their Assault Cannons/Storm Bolters/Cyclone Launchers/Land Speeders/Land Raider variants/Razorbacks/Whirlwinds and Grav weaponry as they enter the EoT, all their Dreadnoughts go insane for some reason, and they get Reaper ACs, Combi-Bolters, and Daemon Engines in return.

    A Renegade Marine force should be that, a Renegade Marine force, as opposed to Traitor Legions, which are a specific thing.



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:26:44


    Post by: Gert


    Spoiler:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:

    Crunch should be informed by the fluff. In the fluff, Chosen =/= HH veterans where as Chaos Marines =/= the renegade friends we made along the way. The crunch should reflect this. Chaos Marines can be 10,000 year old Veterans, and they can be Loyalist Marines that gave the Emperor the middle finger last week. Ditto for Chosen. They represent different things within different forces of heretics.
    Saying that Chosen are HH veterans and that's all they are is simply not true.

    Chosen are veteran CSM, doesn't matter if they're Astartes who stormed the walls of Terra or the 1st Company of a Renegade Chapter. A basic CSM might still be old but they're not veterans, there needs to be a difference between the two.

    Spoiler:
    Is that even a real question? It's been one of the biggest problems representing Renegade Marines in-game, because as soon as a Marine Chapter turns against the Emperor they have to give up all their Assault Cannons/Storm Bolters/Cyclone Launchers/Land Speeders/Land Raider variants/Razorbacks/Whirlwinds and Grav weaponry as they enter the EoT, all their Dreadnoughts go insane for some reason, and they get Reaper ACs, Combi-Bolters, and Daemon Engines in return.
    A Renegade Marine force should be that, a Renegade Marine force, as opposed to Traitor Legions, which are a specific thing.

    That's just loyalist Space Marines though. You're not even playing CSM anymore.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:28:21


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


    And before Gad brings it up again...
    The Chosen are the elite of a Chaos Space Marine army. Drawn from the most experienced and capable warriors of the Traitor Legions, they have literally thousands of years of experience. These men have ruled planets, led armies and destroyed civilizations; they are the Chosen of the Chaos Gods and the bane of all that lives.
    Emphasis mine, this time. Because this refers to Traitor Legions. Renegade Chapters wouldn't have Chosen drawn from the most experienced of the Traitor Legions because they're not Traitor Legions!!!


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:30:28


    Post by: StrayIight


     H.B.M.C. wrote:

    Is that even a real question?


    Of course it is.
    Come on. This is just needlessly rude and belligerent.

     H.B.M.C. wrote:

    A Renegade Marine force should be that, a Renegade Marine force, as opposed to Traitor Legions, which are a specific thing.


    Where is the specific fluff separation, because I don't see it. This has been gone over. The vast majority of Heretic Astartes operate out of independent Warbands, with little but token ties to a specific Legion. There are exceptions, those exceptions are few and far between in comparison.

    You're much, much more likely to see a mix of old and new Astartes in any force you're representing on the table top, regardless of whether they share a legion colour scheme or not.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    And before Gad brings it up again...
    The Chosen are the elite of a Chaos Space Marine army. Drawn from the most experienced and capable warriors of the Traitor Legions, they have literally thousands of years of experience. These men have ruled planets, led armies and destroyed civilizations; they are the Chosen of the Chaos Gods and the bane of all that lives.
    Emphasis mine, this time. Because this refers to Traitor Legions. Renegade Chapters wouldn't have Chosen drawn from the most experienced of the Traitor Legions because they're not Traitor Legions!!!


    You've missed the point of that paragraph (and this still gets us no-where). Of course they're from a Traitor Legion. Any HH vet would have been part of a Legion... That doesn't mean they haven't joined Warlord Spergleblarggh's Warband since, now does it?


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:33:54


    Post by: Gert


    Ok, this is from Codex CSM 8th Edition:
    The most experienced and dedicated CSM are known as Chosen. Even at a glance, it is obvious that they are favoured amongst the bitter brotherhood of Chaos, for their baroque armour is embellished in forbidden runes and their grimacing helmets give them the aspect of raging Daemons. Equipped with the finest wargear a warband can provide, the Chosen are even more hard-bitten and callous than other CSM, and think nothing of sacrificing the lives of their comrades to increase their own standing with the gods.

    So, from this, it is pretty clear that Chosen are the veterans of a warband.
    Are we going to keep arguing this dumb point?


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:35:52


    Post by: Rihgu


    Hey! That doesn't match my fluff for my CSM Chosen based off of the 3.5 codex at all! Time to burn my collection, I guess.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:37:40


    Post by: StrayIight


    (Last post got duplicated somehow - apologies. Please ignore.)


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:38:31


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     Gert wrote:
    So, from this, it is pretty clear that Chosen are the veterans of a warband.
    Has that ever been in question?

     Gert wrote:
    Are we going to keep arguing this dumb point?
    The point is that I reject the notion that in a CSM army that Chosen represent HH vets where as regular CSMs don't.

     StrayIight wrote:
    You've missed the point of that paragraph (and this still gets us no-where). Of course they're from a Traitor Legion. Any HH vet would have been part of a Legion... That doesn't mean they haven't joined Warlord Spergleblarggh's (will trade his rules for catnip) Warband since, now does it?
    I haven't missed anything.

    The paragraph is talking about what the Chosen are in an army made of Traitor Legionaries. It does not say that all Chosen are HH vets. What if your army isn't made of Traitor Legionaries like, say, I dunno... a Renegade Marine chapter/warband?





    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:44:54


    Post by: Galas


    I mean one can be something for thousands of years and still be mediocre at it.

    Regulars CSM can represent mediocre chaos marines (as mediocre as a space marine can be) even from the HH. They just didn't became notorious for any reason whatsoever.

    Chosen could be all kind of elite cadres of chaos marine armies. From horus heresy veterans that are specially gifted for whatever reason (Even during the heresy your Abaddon or your Loken was not like your schmuk John McCurtys the 2420 space wolf legionary of the McDonald company), to more recent converted chaos marines that have gained power and chaos boons for their deeds, more recent veterans of renegade chapters, etc...



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:46:17


    Post by: Gert


    I have a question. The Long War is a thing, but it isn't explicitly the domain of the Legions. 10k years is a hell of a long time so there's nothing precluding a Renegade Chapter having VotLW in their Warband. Who is going to tell them "no you can't do that, only Legions can do that "? What if members of the Legions decide that they like the look of a Renegade Chapter over their Primarch's legacy?


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 15:49:01


    Post by: StrayIight


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    So, from this, it is pretty clear that Chosen are the veterans of a warband.
    Has that ever been in question?

     StrayIight wrote:
    You've missed the point of that paragraph (and this still gets us no-where). Of course they're from a Traitor Legion. Any HH vet would have been part of a Legion... That doesn't mean they haven't joined Warlord Spergleblarggh's (will trade his rules for catnip) Warband since, now does it?
    I haven't missed anything.

    The paragraph is talking about what the Chosen are in an army made of Traitor Legionaries. It does not say that all Chosen are HH vets. What if your army isn't made of Traitor Legionaries like, say, I dunno... a Renegade Marine chapter/warband?


    I think you're still viewing Legions and Renegade Chapters as holistic entities that don't merge, split and recruit or absorb. This isn't how things work in the more recent fluff. But beyond that...

     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    The point is that I reject the notion that in a CSM army that Chosen represent HH vets where as regular CSMs don't.


    Great. I get that, and you've made that point. We all understand your stance on it. Now you've defined that label, can we please progress to addressing the actual issue, rather than attempting to define it the same way, again, using different evidence and prose that everyone will continue to disagree on? I'm not trying to be unkind, but at a certain point this isn't discussion, it's arguing fruitlessly for the sake of arguing. There will be no winner here. We could have a useful and dynamic discussion around the future of CSM, and how they could be, or we'd like to see them be, improved however.



    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Gert wrote:
    What if members of the Legions decide that they like the look of a Renegade Chapter over their Primarch's legacy?


    This is essentially what happens in a lot of cases.

    Take the Red Corsairs as an example. Huron is a Renegade. He was never a member of one of the Legions. He however commands a mindbogglingly large number of CSM (in the broader sense). Enough that the size of his forces dwarf that of any of the existing Legions, Loyalist Chapters, CSM Warbands, save for Abaddon's Black Legion alone.

    He has so many men, he gives them away for people to use, quite literally for little other reason than for sh*ts and giggles, because he can.

    We know that the Astartes that wear his colours come from everywhere - the guy will take anyone. That includes any veteran of the HH, loyalist, or heretic, that decided that 'Pirate island' looked a hell of a lot better than where they were previously.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 18:55:44


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Why would a bunch of Renegades have better equipment than actual Veterans of the Long War?
    Is that even a real question? It's been one of the biggest problems representing Renegade Marines in-game, because as soon as a Marine Chapter turns against the Emperor they have to give up all their Assault Cannons/Storm Bolters/Cyclone Launchers/Land Speeders/Land Raider variants/Razorbacks/Whirlwinds and Grav weaponry as they enter the EoT, all their Dreadnoughts go insane for some reason, and they get Reaper ACs, Combi-Bolters, and Daemon Engines in return.

    A Renegade Marine force should be that, a Renegade Marine force, as opposed to Traitor Legions, which are a specific thing.


    Figured that would be your answer. As Gert said: that's just loyalists. You can build that out of the loyalist codex.

    H.B.M.C. wrote:And before Gad brings it up again...
    The Chosen are the elite of a Chaos Space Marine army. Drawn from the most experienced and capable warriors of the Traitor Legions, they have literally thousands of years of experience. These men have ruled planets, led armies and destroyed civilizations; they are the Chosen of the Chaos Gods and the bane of all that lives.
    Emphasis mine, this time. Because this refers to Traitor Legions. Renegade Chapters wouldn't have Chosen drawn from the most experienced of the Traitor Legions because they're not Traitor Legions!!!

    Of course it does, because 3.5 dealt in Legions. But look at the currently highlighted sentence. Chosen are Veteran Heretic Astartes. Doesn't matter if that's veterans of the Heresy, or the most veteran members of a more recently converted warband. Moving them to the troops slot would give us a way to represent a warband, either of Heresy veterans or those more recently converted, made up of more veteran Astartes. Or one that isn't by not taking large numbers (or any) of them. If calling them Chosen bothers you so much, call them Chaos Space Marine Veterans instead. The point is to give us more options to represent the force we want to have.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 19:54:19


    Post by: BrianDavion


     Galas wrote:
    I mean one can be something for thousands of years and still be mediocre at it.

    Regulars CSM can represent mediocre chaos marines (as mediocre as a space marine can be) even from the HH. They just didn't became notorious for any reason whatsoever.

    Chosen could be all kind of elite cadres of chaos marine armies. From horus heresy veterans that are specially gifted for whatever reason (Even during the heresy your Abaddon or your Loken was not like your schmuk John McCurtys the 2420 space wolf legionary of the McDonald company), to more recent converted chaos marines that have gained power and chaos boons for their deeds, more recent veterans of renegade chapters, etc...



    Time also passes differantly in the warp, IIRC doesn't the Nightlord's trilogy mention only a century (.. or was it a Decade?) had passed for them since the Heresy? If so then that means there where more experianced Loyalist Marines then they where. Also not ALL CSMs, even among the traitor legions are veterns of the Heresy. hey've kept recruiting. Honsou was a bloody chaos lord and wasn't a HH vet. in fact reading between the lines it sounds like being a vetern of the heresy is actually a rarish mark of distinction among chaos marines these days.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 20:14:48


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    BrianDavion wrote:
     Galas wrote:
    I mean one can be something for thousands of years and still be mediocre at it.

    Regulars CSM can represent mediocre chaos marines (as mediocre as a space marine can be) even from the HH. They just didn't became notorious for any reason whatsoever.

    Chosen could be all kind of elite cadres of chaos marine armies. From horus heresy veterans that are specially gifted for whatever reason (Even during the heresy your Abaddon or your Loken was not like your schmuk John McCurtys the 2420 space wolf legionary of the McDonald company), to more recent converted chaos marines that have gained power and chaos boons for their deeds, more recent veterans of renegade chapters, etc...



    Time also passes differantly in the warp, IIRC doesn't the Nightlord's trilogy mention only a century (.. or was it a Decade?) had passed for them since the Heresy? If so then that means there where more experianced Loyalist Marines then they where. Also not ALL CSMs, even among the traitor legions are veterns of the Heresy. hey've kept recruiting. Honsou was a bloody chaos lord and wasn't a HH vet. in fact reading between the lines it sounds like being a vetern of the heresy is actually a rarish mark of distinction among chaos marines these days.

    300 years since the Heresy for 10th Company. 200 on Tsgualsa before being driven into the Eye of Terror, slightly over 100 after. Pretty sure fighting in the Crusade and Heresy counts for experience as well. Especially when fighting other Astartes. The Legions would have more experience in fighting other Astartes than any loyalists. They should be a loyalist Astartes worst nightmare.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/10 23:10:03


    Post by: catbarf


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    Crunch should be informed by the fluff. In the fluff, Chosen =/= HH veterans where as Chaos Marines =/= the renegade friends we made along the way. The crunch should reflect this. Chaos Marines can be 10,000 year old Veterans, and they can be Loyalist Marines that gave the Emperor the middle finger last week. Ditto for Chosen. They represent different things within different forces of heretics.


    Okay, so what about it?

    The actual discussion is whether Chaos should have access to a more elite profile as a Troops choice. Are you saying Chaos shouldn't have that profile? Or they should but it shouldn't be labeled Chosen? Or Chosen and this hypothetical veteran profile should be two different things?

    Help me understand what you're arguing beyond semantics.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/11 03:30:46


    Post by: Jidmah


    The past few pages are all about what chosen are and what slot they should be in, when the people asking for chosen troops really just want a +1A upgrade and better wargear for regular CSM.

    Because that's all you get for being a "veteran of the long war".

    And honestly, veterans of any kind have no business being troops.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/11 04:45:50


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     catbarf wrote:
    Help me understand what you're arguing beyond semantics.
    Y'all can keep using that word 'til you're blue in the face. Won't ever make this a semantic argument.

    You said this:
     catbarf wrote:
    That's a good point that ties back to the idea of Chosen being Troops. It essentially gives you four core choices that shape your force:
    -Cultists, being your GEQ chaff
    -CSM, basic renegades
    -Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
    -Cult Marines, amped up on their god's favor
    You want Chosen to represent actual veterans of the HH, and regular CSM to be Rengegades and not veterans of the HH.

    I reject this because it is basically saying that all veterans of the HH are Chosen, and that all the standard CSMs are not; they're just renegade Marines that joined as the decades went by. That's not how the fluff works, and I don't think that should be how the rules work.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/11 06:14:00


    Post by: Not Online!!!


     Jidmah wrote:
    The past few pages are all about what chosen are and what slot they should be in, when the people asking for chosen troops really just want a +1A upgrade and better wargear for regular CSM.

    Because that's all you get for being a "veteran of the long war".

    And honestly, veterans of any kind have no business being troops.


    Yeah sure jid so remove snaggas from orks and scions from guard troop slots?




    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/11 08:31:31


    Post by: Crimson


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     catbarf wrote:
    Help me understand what you're arguing beyond semantics.
    Y'all can keep using that word 'til you're blue in the face. Won't ever make this a semantic argument.

    You said this:
     catbarf wrote:
    That's a good point that ties back to the idea of Chosen being Troops. It essentially gives you four core choices that shape your force:
    -Cultists, being your GEQ chaff
    -CSM, basic renegades
    -Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
    -Cult Marines, amped up on their god's favor
    You want Chosen to represent actual veterans of the HH, and regular CSM to be Rengegades and not veterans of the HH.

    I reject this because it is basically saying that all veterans of the HH are Chosen, and that all the standard CSMs are not; they're just renegade Marines that joined as the decades went by. That's not how the fluff works, and I don't think that should be how the rules work.


    So why exactly you want ten-millennia old warp-powered eternal warrior to be equally competent than a fresh scrub? Why you want the CSM to be worse version of the loyalist even many of them have insanely more experience?


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/11 09:06:26


    Post by: moreorless


    I do suspect you will see a shift over the nex few years personally, I spose you can never say never but it seems like SM are reaching a point were theres not that much room left for lots of new releases and pushing CSM does seem like the obvious alternative. Seems to have already been pretty sucessful with Death Guard so I wouldn't be surprised to see the World Eaters and Emperors Children get similar focus, maybe even the Iron Warriors offering more of a shooting focused CSM choice?


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/11 10:45:52


    Post by: StrayIight


     Crimson wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     catbarf wrote:
    Help me understand what you're arguing beyond semantics.
    Y'all can keep using that word 'til you're blue in the face. Won't ever make this a semantic argument.

    You said this:
     catbarf wrote:
    That's a good point that ties back to the idea of Chosen being Troops. It essentially gives you four core choices that shape your force:
    -Cultists, being your GEQ chaff
    -CSM, basic renegades
    -Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
    -Cult Marines, amped up on their god's favor
    You want Chosen to represent actual veterans of the HH, and regular CSM to be Rengegades and not veterans of the HH.

    I reject this because it is basically saying that all veterans of the HH are Chosen, and that all the standard CSMs are not; they're just renegade Marines that joined as the decades went by. That's not how the fluff works, and I don't think that should be how the rules work.


    So why exactly you want ten-millennia old warp-powered eternal warrior to be equally competent than a fresh scrub? Why you want the CSM to be worse version of the loyalist even many of them have insanely more experience?


    In fairness, I don't think this is what he's saying. H.B.M.C.'s issue, to my understanding, seems to revolve around the 'Chosen' unit, specifically, being the unit that is considered the 'HH Veteran' Heretic Astartes. His view (if I've understood his argument correctly), is that there is nothing to say a non-'chosen' CSM isn't a HH vet, and he wouldn't want to be forced into taking 'Chosen' to represent that role.

    Fine. I don't think it get's us anywhere, but I don't have an issue with that opinion.

    I just think (and I hope we're all on the same page here), that we need to be able to differentiate a HH veteran Astartes, from a newly minted 41st millennium defector or renegade. Right now, we can't. Actually, our basic Astartes is far, far poorer than the Loyalist equivalent. Access to a (admittedly good) strat with 'veteran' in the name, doesn't address that.

    This is the problem we really need to be discussing and working on. Arguing as to whether we improve a unit that's labelled 'chosen' or not to achieve this, doesn't address that one bit. Sadly.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/11 12:18:07


    Post by: catbarf


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     catbarf wrote:
    Help me understand what you're arguing beyond semantics.
    Y'all can keep using that word 'til you're blue in the face. Won't ever make this a semantic argument.

    You said this:
     catbarf wrote:
    That's a good point that ties back to the idea of Chosen being Troops. It essentially gives you four core choices that shape your force:
    -Cultists, being your GEQ chaff
    -CSM, basic renegades
    -Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
    -Cult Marines, amped up on their god's favor
    You want Chosen to represent actual veterans of the HH, and regular CSM to be Rengegades and not veterans of the HH.

    I reject this because it is basically saying that all veterans of the HH are Chosen, and that all the standard CSMs are not; they're just renegade Marines that joined as the decades went by. That's not how the fluff works, and I don't think that should be how the rules work.


    I want a more elite profile than basic CSM to be available as a Troops choice and don't particularly care what it's called. Call it Chaos Marine Veterans then. Or Chaostouched Warpwarriors. Or Mr Potato Head. Doesn't matter. If you're quibbling on that label, then that's semantics.

    Such a profile could- regardless of what it's called- be used to represent an army composed of hardened veterans from the Heresy. Even if that's not precisely what the Chosen profile is 'meant' to be. You seeming to get hung up on that label is why everyone is telling you you're arguing semantics.

    If you have a more substantial disagreement with this concept you're not articulating it well.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/11 13:22:38


    Post by: Tyel


    I'm unclear why whether this or that CSM can remember the Siege of Terra or happened to turn traitor last Tuesday matters to the mechanics of the game. It just seems like some strange internal-chaos fight that's run and run for 25 years. (See also: "make Marks flavourful and impactful"/"but my army shouldn't have to be dedicated to the Chaos Gods to work".)

    I'm afraid I'm also unclear why Chaos Intercessors (i.e. CSM in the troops slot with +1 attack) are going to shake up the faction in any meaningful way. I guess you could argue for blinging them out with lots of Plasma guns and power weapons, but I'm still not seeing it (and odds are GW would insist on a new kit without these features). GW could for instance in their mercy just give CSM the Intercessor statline (cries of "but muh tacticals" can be met with "buy Primaris noob").

    But would it matter? See the general minimisation of Marine Troops in Marine armies.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/11 13:59:55


    Post by: Sgt. Cortez


     catbarf wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     catbarf wrote:
    Help me understand what you're arguing beyond semantics.
    Y'all can keep using that word 'til you're blue in the face. Won't ever make this a semantic argument.

    You said this:
     catbarf wrote:
    That's a good point that ties back to the idea of Chosen being Troops. It essentially gives you four core choices that shape your force:
    -Cultists, being your GEQ chaff
    -CSM, basic renegades
    -Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
    -Cult Marines, amped up on their god's favor
    You want Chosen to represent actual veterans of the HH, and regular CSM to be Rengegades and not veterans of the HH.

    I reject this because it is basically saying that all veterans of the HH are Chosen, and that all the standard CSMs are not; they're just renegade Marines that joined as the decades went by. That's not how the fluff works, and I don't think that should be how the rules work.


    I want a more elite profile than basic CSM to be available as a Troops choice and don't particularly care what it's called. Call it Chaos Marine Veterans then. Or Chaostouched Warpwarriors. Or Mr Potato Head. Doesn't matter. If you're quibbling on that label, then that's semantics.

    Such a profile could- regardless of what it's called- be used to represent an army composed of hardened veterans from the Heresy. Even if that's not precisely what the Chosen profile is 'meant' to be. You seeming to get hung up on that label is why everyone is telling you you're arguing semantics.

    If you have a more substantial disagreement with this concept you're not articulating it well.


    It's GW, they'll avoid the whole discussion and we'll see CSM rebranded as "Astartes Hereticus" (with the keyword "Heretic astartes") and as veterans/Chosen "Astartes Hereticus Extremis". Rolls of the tongue much better and solves the confusion when talking about CSM if you mean the faction or the unit .


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/11 17:05:16


    Post by: Crispy78


    I can't see Chosen going any other way than the DE Trueborn / Bloodbrides. I.e. one unit can be made Chosen and can have slightly better stats but otherwise same models, same load-outs etc...


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/11 19:02:48


    Post by: Platuan4th


    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    The past few pages are all about what chosen are and what slot they should be in, when the people asking for chosen troops really just want a +1A upgrade and better wargear for regular CSM.

    Because that's all you get for being a "veteran of the long war".

    And honestly, veterans of any kind have no business being troops.


    Yeah sure jid so remove snaggas from orks and scions from guard troop slots?




    Neither of those are inherently veteran units, though. Beast Snaggas are an Ork racial sub-kultur and Scions are better trained, better equipped Schola Progenium units. Both of their "upgraded" stats are derived from something other than being veterans.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/11 21:00:36


    Post by: BrianDavion


    Tyel wrote:
    I'm unclear why whether this or that CSM can remember the Siege of Terra or happened to turn traitor last Tuesday matters to the mechanics of the game. It just seems like some strange internal-chaos fight that's run and run for 25 years. (See also: "make Marks flavourful and impactful"/"but my army shouldn't have to be dedicated to the Chaos Gods to work".)

    I'm afraid I'm also unclear why Chaos Intercessors (i.e. CSM in the troops slot with +1 attack) are going to shake up the faction in any meaningful way. I guess you could argue for blinging them out with lots of Plasma guns and power weapons, but I'm still not seeing it (and odds are GW would insist on a new kit without these features). GW could for instance in their mercy just give CSM the Intercessor statline (cries of "but muh tacticals" can be met with "buy Primaris noob").

    But would it matter? See the general minimisation of Marine Troops in Marine armies.


    I'd rather they just gave CSms their chainswords AND boltguns back. I mean grey Hunters can have it, why can't chaos?


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 00:56:04


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    BrianDavion wrote:
    Spoiler:
    Tyel wrote:
    I'm unclear why whether this or that CSM can remember the Siege of Terra or happened to turn traitor last Tuesday matters to the mechanics of the game. It just seems like some strange internal-chaos fight that's run and run for 25 years. (See also: "make Marks flavourful and impactful"/"but my army shouldn't have to be dedicated to the Chaos Gods to work".)

    I'm afraid I'm also unclear why Chaos Intercessors (i.e. CSM in the troops slot with +1 attack) are going to shake up the faction in any meaningful way. I guess you could argue for blinging them out with lots of Plasma guns and power weapons, but I'm still not seeing it (and odds are GW would insist on a new kit without these features). GW could for instance in their mercy just give CSM the Intercessor statline (cries of "but muh tacticals" can be met with "buy Primaris noob").

    But would it matter? See the general minimisation of Marine Troops in Marine armies.


    I'd rather they just gave CSms their chainswords AND boltguns back. I mean grey Hunters can have it, why can't chaos?

    You know why: because that's not an option for the current CSM kit. They can either have bolters or chainswords, not both. So that's what they'll have in the new codex.

    And that's what we're asking for: a unit with better stats that can have both ranged weapons and melee weapons. And those better stats don't just have to be +1 attack, in 2nd edition Veteran Chaos Space Marines had better BS and WS and special rules like Infiltrate and Dispersed Formation. One would assume that CSM themselves will get 2A based on Death Guard, in exchange for losing DTTFE.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 03:27:13


    Post by: BrianDavion


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    BrianDavion wrote:
    Spoiler:
    Tyel wrote:
    I'm unclear why whether this or that CSM can remember the Siege of Terra or happened to turn traitor last Tuesday matters to the mechanics of the game. It just seems like some strange internal-chaos fight that's run and run for 25 years. (See also: "make Marks flavourful and impactful"/"but my army shouldn't have to be dedicated to the Chaos Gods to work".)

    I'm afraid I'm also unclear why Chaos Intercessors (i.e. CSM in the troops slot with +1 attack) are going to shake up the faction in any meaningful way. I guess you could argue for blinging them out with lots of Plasma guns and power weapons, but I'm still not seeing it (and odds are GW would insist on a new kit without these features). GW could for instance in their mercy just give CSM the Intercessor statline (cries of "but muh tacticals" can be met with "buy Primaris noob").

    But would it matter? See the general minimisation of Marine Troops in Marine armies.


    I'd rather they just gave CSms their chainswords AND boltguns back. I mean grey Hunters can have it, why can't chaos?

    You know why: because that's not an option for the current CSM kit. They can either have bolters or chainswords, not both. So that's what they'll have in the new codex.

    And that's what we're asking for: a unit with better stats that can have both ranged weapons and melee weapons. And those better stats don't just have to be +1 attack, in 2nd edition Veteran Chaos Space Marines had better BS and WS and special rules like Infiltrate and Dispersed Formation. One would assume that CSM themselves will get 2A based on Death Guard, in exchange for losing DTTFE.


    2A at the expense of DTTFE is solid, hell with that upgrade the onlky idfferance between CSMs and chosen is chosen can toss on wargear. (or they'll get three attacks) I think if CSMs could keep their chainsword and botlgun that'd be eneugh to make em distinct from loyalist space marines. 3 S4 AP -1 attacks, (4 on the charge) would actually be pretty solid


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 07:01:18


    Post by: Not Online!!!


     Platuan4th wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    The past few pages are all about what chosen are and what slot they should be in, when the people asking for chosen troops really just want a +1A upgrade and better wargear for regular CSM.

    Because that's all you get for being a "veteran of the long war".

    And honestly, veterans of any kind have no business being troops.


    Yeah sure jid so remove snaggas from orks and scions from guard troop slots?




    Neither of those are inherently veteran units, though. Beast Snaggas are an Ork racial sub-kultur and Scions are better trained, better equipped Schola Progenium units. Both of their "upgraded" stats are derived from something other than being veterans.


    In case of orks that is literally not true for derivates of the boy statline Sans specials.
    These are quite literally copyrightable skarboyz with a "forced " Theme slapped on.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 08:44:10


    Post by: Jidmah


    Just because you don't like their fluff, doesn't change the fact that they are still not considered veterans.

    Ork veterans are nobz, everything smaller than that is just a regular boy with not enough combat experience to have become a nob.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 09:09:16


    Post by: Not Online!!!


     Jidmah wrote:
    Just because you don't like their fluff, doesn't change the fact that they are still not considered veterans.

    Ork veterans are nobz, everything smaller than that is just a regular boy with not enough combat experience to have become a nob.


    Read again what i stated.
    I stated that they are skarboyz (bigger and tougher) with a copyrightable name that just so happen to be themed for copyright reasons.
    They are by all magnitute veterans of their theme, else they wouldn't be bigger and stronger than normal orks.

    I have also not stated their lore annoys me. I simply pointed to them as an exemple of veteran troops. Which btw also applies to PM aswell.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 09:56:53


    Post by: BrianDavion


    anyway chosen as troops is a bad idea, that said, I'd be fine with chosen being removed as CSMs simply being boosted. making DTTFE a 2nd attack, and then giving them a chainsword and boltgun would honestly make them distinct from Marines, they'd outclass the standard tactical marine and would very much be something of a "dark mirror" to primaris Marines, with Primaris Marines having a better ranged punch and CSMs being better in close combat.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 10:41:13


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    BrianDavion wrote:
    anyway chosen as troops is a bad idea, that said, I'd be fine with chosen being removed as CSMs simply being boosted. making DTTFE a 2nd attack, and then giving them a chainsword and boltgun would honestly make them distinct from Marines, they'd outclass the standard tactical marine and would very much be something of a "dark mirror" to primaris Marines, with Primaris Marines having a better ranged punch and CSMs being better in close combat.

    CSM aren't going to get bolters and boltguns because you can't assemble the models that way. It's either boltguns or chainswords and pistols. You can't do both.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 10:44:48


    Post by: Jidmah


    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    Just because you don't like their fluff, doesn't change the fact that they are still not considered veterans.

    Ork veterans are nobz, everything smaller than that is just a regular boy with not enough combat experience to have become a nob.


    Read again what i stated.
    I stated that they are skarboyz (bigger and tougher) with a copyrightable name that just so happen to be themed for copyright reasons.
    They are by all magnitute veterans of their theme, else they wouldn't be bigger and stronger than normal orks.

    I have also not stated their lore annoys me. I simply pointed to them as an exemple of veteran troops. Which btw also applies to PM aswell.


    The thing is that beast snagga = skarboyz is a leap of logic that isn't supported by anything but that they both share S5. Beastsnagga boyz are just the boyz of the beastsnagge subkulture, while scarboyz are phenomen mostly unique to goff.

    And then again, the original topic was about marines, not completely unrelated armies that work differently in every way. Space marine veterans, neither loyal nor heretic, form the backbone of any space marine army and therefore don't belong in troop slots. An army made up of nothing but veterans should be extremely rare and limited, like the DA Deathwing.

    It's also false to assume that every member of one of the legions is millennia old and has been gathering experience since the heresy, lore clearly shows that most them are still recruiting and making new marines. I also remember reading lore akin to that some Chaos Space Marines never grow past the stage of finally being able to kill and wage war unhindered by orders and morals, unable to broaden their horizon. For these marines being a traitor for centuries or decades makes little difference.

    So in the end, I think moving chosen to troops would be a mistake, especially since it's done for the wrong reasons (wanting better stats+wargear). Instead, CSM should just be able to properly portrait those marines which have left behind the mindless killing and have gotten themselves drunken on chaos power. Which essentially is what people are asking for when they talk about veteran skills, marks doing something and better icons.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 10:54:25


    Post by: BrianDavion


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    BrianDavion wrote:
    anyway chosen as troops is a bad idea, that said, I'd be fine with chosen being removed as CSMs simply being boosted. making DTTFE a 2nd attack, and then giving them a chainsword and boltgun would honestly make them distinct from Marines, they'd outclass the standard tactical marine and would very much be something of a "dark mirror" to primaris Marines, with Primaris Marines having a better ranged punch and CSMs being better in close combat.

    CSM aren't going to get bolters and boltguns because you can't assemble the models that way. It's either boltguns or chainswords and pistols. You can't do both.


    and I think that's absolutely stupid


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 11:18:34


    Post by: Gert


    It might be stupid but the kit flat out doesn't allow it and there's no combination of CSM kits that would allow it. Therefore GW won't put it in their rules.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 11:42:58


    Post by: The_Real_Chris


    I am terribly sorry for using the word chosen. Please stop talking about it. No-one is coming for your chosen. The idea was...

    Troops
    Cultists
    Renegade CSM - somewhat altered from loyalists but fundamentally the way to get power armoured bolter carrying bodies the cheapest
    More idiosyncratic CSM probably from the old legions and able to be built like deathwatch squads. This allows you to build up the disparate warband feel and capture units from the fluff. Details on what to include in a squad in the original post but essentially deathwatch style disparate member and weapon options but with a chaotic feel.

    If a warband is mono God, the appropriate cult marines become troop choices, otherwise cult marines are elites like currently.



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 11:43:41


    Post by: Not Online!!!


     Gert wrote:
    It might be stupid but the kit flat out doesn't allow it and there's no combination of CSM kits that would allow it. Therefore GW won't put it in their rules.


    This leaves out an issue with the kit though...
    You have only Baseline equipment for 8 of the CSM / 7 (depedning upon melee squad or shooty squad.)....
    I hope they reign that in, but i doubt it..


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 11:45:52


    Post by: The_Real_Chris


     Gert wrote:
    The biggest issue I'm seeing is why bother with normal CSM if you can just take Chosen.


    Cost, squad size (up to 20 marines perhaps?), bunch of different reasons? They would be the way you capture the feel of a 30k legion style organisation or a mass of renegades skewering the Imperium. The other squad option would be costlier per man, limited at 10, etc. In the same way I take regular guard still instead of scions, or plain deathwatch vets instead of one of their mixed fancy squads.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Jidmah wrote:


    And honestly, veterans of any kind have no business being troops.


    Plenty of army lists have that as an option. And if you are a small elite warband like say the ADB Night Warriors all your troops are literal veterans,


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Not Online!!! wrote:

    This leaves out an issue with the kit though...
    You have only Baseline equipment for 8 of the CSM / 7 (depedning upon melee squad or shooty squad.)....
    I hope they reign that in, but i doubt it..


    Yes and the chances of getting a new kit are zero.

    They do at least say this "The set is even designed to be compatible with the Havocs, allowing you to mix and match heavy weapons for even more choice" so it isn't as bad as some. Still even the option to be able to add possessed, terminators, bikers, raptors, Havocs and cult marines (the latter with some restrictions) like a deathwatch squad would mean you could have a lot more fun.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 11:59:50


    Post by: Gert


    The_Real_Chris wrote:

    Cost, squad size (up to 20 marines perhaps?), bunch of different reasons? They would be the way you capture the feel of a 30k legion style organisation or a mass of renegades skewering the Imperium. The other squad option would be costlier per man, limited at 10, etc. In the same way I take regular guard still instead of scions, or plain deathwatch vets instead of one of their mixed fancy squads.


    For 2 Power (just using that since Combat Roster the only thing I have access to rn) Chosen get more attacks and better leadership, the only thing they're missing is <Core> AFAIK. If they do have core then baseline CSM are basically worthless.
    Scions VS Infantry is a different thing. Scions get half the troops but get better weapons, saves, possible leadership and can also deep strike but they don't benefit from RegDoc unless it's a Scion only detachment. Chosen are just a flat upgrade on CSM currently and as far as I can tell there's really no reason to not take them.



    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/12 14:16:21


    Post by: The_Real_Chris


    That is though incredibly easy to fix. Even with only points - what is the cost for the basic squad marines vs the others would you want to make it a choice? Stuff like squad sizes is double edged, stuff like a cheap 5 man squad or a mob of 20 has upsides and downsides. Stratagems is the other obvious angle. But there are multiple ways of giving units options over others.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Or just make the flashier unit Primaris


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/13 00:41:52


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    BrianDavion wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    BrianDavion wrote:
    anyway chosen as troops is a bad idea, that said, I'd be fine with chosen being removed as CSMs simply being boosted. making DTTFE a 2nd attack, and then giving them a chainsword and boltgun would honestly make them distinct from Marines, they'd outclass the standard tactical marine and would very much be something of a "dark mirror" to primaris Marines, with Primaris Marines having a better ranged punch and CSMs being better in close combat.

    CSM aren't going to get bolters and boltguns because you can't assemble the models that way. It's either boltguns or chainswords and pistols. You can't do both.


    and I think that's absolutely stupid

    So do I. But gw doesn't. And, unfortunately, they write the rules.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/13 11:13:19


    Post by: The_Real_Chris


    Well those chainswords are heavy clearly!


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/15 08:49:15


    Post by: Curvaceous


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
    I'm afraid I'm also unclear why Chaos Intercessors (i.e. CSM in the troops slot with +1 attack) are going to shake up the faction in any meaningful way. I guess you could argue for blinging them out with lots of Plasma guns and power weapons, but I'm still not seeing it

    But would it matter? See the general minimisation of Marine Troops in Marine armies.


    And that's what we're asking for: a unit with better stats that can have both ranged weapons and melee weapons. And those better stats don't just have to be +1 attack, in 2nd edition Veteran Chaos Space Marines had better BS and WS and special rules like Infiltrate and Dispersed Formation.


    it's so possible for these models to have good profiles. The Victrix Guard exist, they're a real official unit in the Ultramarines supplement. Chosen who've ruled planets and led armies can stand up to some ultramarines.

    if you know what the profile for victrix guard is, you might say they're too good for a 5-model or more unit of chosen. That's fine, the victrix guard show that you can start with that profile and then pull back a little bit on some of it. It means minimum, chosen can have three attacks (victrix have four each) and a better save of some kind (victrix have 2+).

    Chosen have chaos armor, or patron spirits, or they just raided the chapter armory for its artificer armor. That can give them something like a 5++, or ignores ap -1, or rerolls saves of 1. I think 2+ armor is just the easiest, there's no need to waste special rules.

    also a big strength of victrix is they come with 3++ storm shields included, and chaos chosen can't even buy those. So just flat out using the victrix profile with no storm shield and basic marine weapons is much less powerful. It puts a lot of distance between them and basic CSM.

    To make the distance between chosen and CSM bigger in the other direction, troops section CSM could be just a little bit crappier than the basic loyalist. Legions and renegades both have reasons for this. In legions, we know that when they recruit new marines, they treat them like garbage until they're strong enough to fight back. In renegade chapters, all the good members of a tactical squad will go off to become champions or chosen, while ones that are left waste their time in the dueling cages and torturing people instead of maintaining good discipline. On an individual basis the troops can afford to be a little bit dingy.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/15 10:44:15


    Post by: BrianDavion


    Victrix guard are basicly just primaris honor guard, something that standard CSMs kinda lack. I think if I was gonna do it I'd create it as a unit of characters that can be taken in a group of "3 per init slot" and give them a rule called "curse your sudden inevitable betrayal" where to use the bodyguard function against an attack that would kill your warlord the warlord must pass a LDR check... if he fails the warlord dies...... but a bodyguard character who could have acted as a bodyguard gains a warlord trait and is treated as your new warlord for all intents and purposes (including meaning your opponent doesn't get a victory point for slay the warlord) to represent a "star scream moment"


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/15 11:14:49


    Post by: Curvaceous


    If there were a need for a chaos version of body guards that would be a good rule for them.

    people are talking about having a strong unit in elites or troops that matches the feel of the super swole chaos warriors from fantasy. I'm saying borrow the victrix profile for chosen, not any of the special rules or equipment. Standard chosen equipment, standard chosen unit size, standard chosen options. Super swole stats. but same rôle as always.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/15 11:26:35


    Post by: Galas


    Chaos Warriors were swolen in fantasy because the baseline was the human, dwarf and elf profile.
    Chaos marine are allready superior to normal humans, but what peiple IS asking IS for Chaos marines to be superior to loyalist and thats just not true. They should not be inferior of course but outside Chaos boons, relics and artifacts theres no reason for a Chaos marine veteran yo be superior to a loyalist veteran.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/15 11:46:36


    Post by: Curvaceous


    yep, they're not more powerful, they're slightly less powerful than a couple of ultramarines body guards who don't have any chaos boons.

    Chaos forces, chosen chaos forces, tread the path to glory. the entire point of chaos is to accumulate more power in the mortal realm in exchange for the soul, and to try to live forever to outrun damnation. That's it, that's the faction.

    and yes there should also be some inferior chaos marines. why would you say they should be equal


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/15 18:38:45


    Post by: Insectum7


    BrianDavion wrote:
    Tyel wrote:
    I'm unclear why whether this or that CSM can remember the Siege of Terra or happened to turn traitor last Tuesday matters to the mechanics of the game. It just seems like some strange internal-chaos fight that's run and run for 25 years. (See also: "make Marks flavourful and impactful"/"but my army shouldn't have to be dedicated to the Chaos Gods to work".)

    I'm afraid I'm also unclear why Chaos Intercessors (i.e. CSM in the troops slot with +1 attack) are going to shake up the faction in any meaningful way. I guess you could argue for blinging them out with lots of Plasma guns and power weapons, but I'm still not seeing it (and odds are GW would insist on a new kit without these features). GW could for instance in their mercy just give CSM the Intercessor statline (cries of "but muh tacticals" can be met with "buy Primaris noob").

    But would it matter? See the general minimisation of Marine Troops in Marine armies.


    I'd rather they just gave CSms their chainswords AND boltguns back. I mean grey Hunters can have it, why can't chaos?
    God yes. Looks great on the models and does well for the themes of CSM.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Galas wrote:
    but what peiple IS asking IS for Chaos marines to be superior to loyalist and thats just not true. They should not be inferior of course but outside Chaos boons, relics and artifacts theres no reason for a Chaos marine veteran yo be superior to a loyalist veteran.

    Baseline CSM should run the gamut between slightly inferior to loyalists, to sidegrade to loyalists, to superior to loyalists, depending on the CSM player's choices.

    Undisciplined "rabble" marines with inferior weaponry (no ATSKNF, no access to Multimeltas/Grav, etc)
    to
    Comparable marines with less emphasis on discipline/cohesion and more emphasis on individual brutality (Same as above, but can all be given Chainswords in addition to boltguns AND pistols)
    to
    Veterans with centuries of experience (add veteran abilities like Infiltrate or whatever)
    to
    "Empowered" marines with chaos-god upgrades (add Marks of Chaos and respective additional bonuses) +1 S/A for Khorne, etc. Immune to Morale, stuff like that.

    Add to those the ability to Summon daemons with Icons, and whatever else makes sense.

    ALL of the above would ideally be CSM troop datasheet.


    . . . .
    Edit: Oh and in addition, re-open up the Havoc datasheet so they can take bigger squads, chainswords, special weapons, etc again. Stupid GW.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/15 20:01:56


    Post by: Galas


    Why should all of those be CSM troops? I mean, Loyalist marine troop list is overcrowded for sure but all are "basic troopers" with different equipement options.

    If you enter into veterans, guys with relics, etc... you are entering in Elite and other stuff territory.

    The problem is that chaos marines lack a proper space marine unit to represent that because chosen are lackluster and can't compete with the sheer amount of marines the loyalist have from veterans to ultra veterans to primaris veterans etc...

    CSM just have Chosen, Terminators, Havocs and Raptors as normal, not mutated not troops chaos marines.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/15 20:28:29


    Post by: Gert


    The thing is that most armies don't have a lot of Troops choices so adding more doesn't help CSM. The CSM unit just needs to be viable over other choices such as Chosen or Cultists.
    I think the biggest problem is that comparing CSM to regular SM is a losing battle. SM are essentially two Codexes in one with a lot of unit profiles expanded for no real reason other than "whoops we added X for Primaris, better do it for Firstborn". With the whole "different datasheets for different wargear" thing as well we have instances like 7 separate datasheets for SM Captains. The worst part is the only difference between the Gravis Captains is a single weapon, Bolt Rifle or Boltstorm Gauntlet.


    Why does Chaos in 40k suck so much more than in the Fantasy universe? @ 2021/07/15 21:07:27


    Post by: Insectum7


     Galas wrote:
    Why should all of those be CSM troops? I mean, Loyalist marine troop list is overcrowded for sure but all are "basic troopers" with different equipement options.

    If you enter into veterans, guys with relics, etc... you are entering in Elite and other stuff territory.

    The problem is that chaos marines lack a proper space marine unit to represent that because chosen are lackluster and can't compete with the sheer amount of marines the loyalist have from veterans to ultra veterans to primaris veterans etc...

    CSM just have Chosen, Terminators, Havocs and Raptors as normal, not mutated not troops chaos marines.
    You appear to not be aware of the history of CSM. What I wrote is basically the Chaos 3.5 CSM, and it was a single unit entry.