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How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 07:27:40


Post by: some bloke


Ok, so first things first:

Discussions about whether this should or should not happen have already been had and the topic was closed!

So please, do not use this thread to continue the discussion, as the Mods said, the conversation was only going in circles at this point.

If anybody ignores this and tries to start up the argument, please ignore it and don't respond. Please. Just leave this for voting!

Out of that discussion (found here) we have gotten a few options for how to add female marines, which have been discussed enough to be considered viable, IE they all had at least one person who was adamant that it was the best way, so they are all getting an airing here to see what the majority of people think.

If you do post in this thread, keep it as a description of your vote and your reasoning. Do Not Argue Against Other Peoples Decisions or Reasons.. Your post is only to voice your opinions on the vote, and not your opinion on other people's decisions.

I will be opening another thread on The Lore, which will cover the lore justification/reasoning of the change (how they fit into the universe) and not the models themselves. Please vote in both!


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 09:30:17


Post by: Dolnikan


Given what the Space Marine process entails, I would say include female heads and use the same bodies. After all that work, and with such thick armour, there really won't be much of a trace of the original body shape left. And yes, I would also go for short-cropped hair, for the typical practical reasons. That would give a badass look.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 10:35:56


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


Heads only, please. For everything else there's Sororitas already and we don't need even more Marine kits. I like the idea of adding female Marines, but I don't want the faction to take even more releases because of that.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 10:41:55


Post by: Pyroalchi


I voted "just heads", but heads and slightly feminine torsos would also be OK for me. I don't collect marines so it's more from an outside point of view. My reason would mostly be that they should still look different enough from sisters of silence/battle.

In theory a set of slightly feminine bodies would be nice to give Marine collectors more space for variation in their army (optically), but I would be a bit concerned if GW would feel the "need" to bring out a whole range of SM bodies again before refreshing the outdated models in other factions. If they can do both: good enough for me, bring heads and bodies and let everyone do their thing.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 11:01:06


Post by: A.T.


The poll is missing an option: "don't change the models".

The existing marine heads are entirely suitable for a girl who has been bio-engineered into a 500lb slab of vat grown muscle and testosterone - there is no reason that the process would stop at the neck, especially given the young age of recruits.

There is ultimately a difference between having female space marines and 'feminine' space marines. Particularly at the 28mm scale there is only so much you can do, 3rd party heads tend to have slimmer jaws and softer features which give them a female appearance but not that of a testosterone-poisoned gene warrior.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 11:15:25


Post by: Fergie0044


After all that bio engineering, training and being encased in thick armour, there should be no difference between a male or female marine body. Only the heads need updating.
These can include all types of feminine heads/hair (Don't the blood angels and space wolves have some long haired heads?) but should mostly be scarred buzz cut types.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 11:18:34


Post by: kirotheavenger


If you're going with the justification that physiologically they're identical, it makes very little sense for the heads to show clear feminine features.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 11:19:34


Post by: BrianDavion


did you really need to make two fething posts devoted to this?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 11:22:20


Post by: some bloke


BrianDavion wrote:
did you really need to make two fething posts devoted to this?


Until it's possible to make two polls in one post, yes.

It was either that or have 20 options in the poll, for each combination of lore & models.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 11:23:53


Post by: Crimson


Just the heads. I did some with Statuesque heads and they look fine. I don't want marines to be overtly gendered like the Stormcast are.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 12:38:15


Post by: Strg Alt


I voted with "don't add female marines".

And here is why I voted like this:

The 40K hobby is a miniature hobby. You add no new content to it by creating a new faction which look like the SOB which are women in power armour.

And what about adding a few women to the original SM chapters? I think this will be such a HUGE retcon that a lot of hobbyists will ragequit. Lol! Chapters have been presented as brotherhoods in the past and I don't think GW will ever change their cash cow in such a fundamental way.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 12:44:20


Post by: Vatsetis


 Strg Alt wrote:
I voted with "don't add female marines".

And here is why I voted like this:

The 40K hobby is a miniature hobby. You add no new content to it by creating a new faction which look like the SOB which are women in power armour.

And what about adding a few women to the original SM chapters? I think this will be such a HUGE retcon that a lot of hobbyists will ragequit. Lol! Chapters have been presented as brotherhoods in the past and I don't think GW will ever change their cash cow in such a fundamental way.


You dont get it. The aim is to create female space marines that are almost indistinguishable both lore wise and model wise from the current male space marines. This is the only way in which the 40K community will be free from misoginist harrasment and death threats.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 12:56:20


Post by: G00fySmiley


i voted heads though I run only helmeted marines in my collection so woudl make zero difference to me. I also don't think the figure for the body should be any different. these are pre puberty humans who get augmented and built as pure genetically changed soldier losing all reproductive ability. to me a female and male space marine are basically the same when they come out of the process


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 13:01:05


Post by: kirotheavenger


The objection to female marines is never "ew women". The objection has always been, and ever shall remain "it is established canon that there are not female marines, therefore your female marines are wrong".
It's no different to someone telling you you shouldn't have male SoB, or blue Orks, or whatever.

Yes, some people react a little too strongly to the idea of female space marines. But when you start by saying they must be a horrible misogynist for not liking the idea, you've already got their back up.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 13:06:21


Post by: Vatsetis


 kirotheavenger wrote:
The objection to female marines is never "ew women". The objection has always been, and ever shall remain "it is established canon that there are not female marines, therefore your female marines are wrong".
It's no different to someone telling you you shouldn't have male SoB, or blue Orks, or whatever.

Yes, some people react a little too strongly to the idea of female space marines. But when you start by saying they must be a horrible misogynist for not liking the idea, you've already got their back up.


Therefore you change the lore and the models in the most measured possible manner and suddenly all this issue disapears. Food for thought.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 13:09:31


Post by: kirotheavenger


People don't like retcons, especially when it's something that's been so integral to their army for so long.
Yes, I would say the concept of "Battle Brother" is pretty intrinsic to Astartes lore.

That's why I said the only viable way to introduce this would be "Cawl did it". It wouldn't be popular, but it's be passable, in very much the same way the original Primaris were.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 13:10:47


Post by: Keramory


Why would you need any difference in models?

They would look the exact same and should be wearing helmets anyway lol. Putting a female through the program would make just another standard looking SM. You just lose out on SM shouting brother every other word in the lore.

Think the whole fm convo is dumb, but if you stand across me and say you're primaris or first born are female, all power too you. I don't know why the hobby needs to add more then that


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 13:18:53


Post by: Vatsetis


 kirotheavenger wrote:
People don't like retcons, especially when it's something that's been so integral to their army for so long.
Yes, I would say the concept of "Battle Brother" is pretty intrinsic to Astartes lore.

That's why I said the only viable way to introduce this would be "Cawl did it". It wouldn't be popular, but it's be passable, in very much the same way the original Primaris were.


But the Primaris were created to sell new models. Here the aim is that models remain the same (apart from, perhaps, a new head sprue similar to the recent AM one).

Also, are you sure that the people that dont like retcons arent in fact misogynists?

Would it be such a problem to speak about "Battle Siblings" after all?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 13:34:36


Post by: ccs


The easiest way, that also makes GW the most $ from those wanting FM SM:

Ok, here's your primaris upgrade spues each sold separately of course).
Sprue A - contains 10 fm heads & torsos for Intercessors.
Spue B - same, but for phobos armor.
Sprue C - and a Sprue for gravis....

Characters of course get complete models at about a $45/$50 price tag per.
To help drive sales though each character comes with ALL the weapon/gear options, thus appealing to all SM players.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 13:34:43


Post by: kirotheavenger


Battle siblings sounds less cool, it lacks the alliteration.
If you don't want new models, why do you want this?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 13:39:35


Post by: Crimson



I did this recently. Statuesque Techno Roider head. I think it looks good.



I don't need female marines to look any more feminine than this.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 14:00:08


Post by: Brickfix


She looks great


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 14:17:26


Post by: Strg Alt


Brickfix wrote:
She looks great


That model would look good with any head swap. Doesn't matter which one. You can get away with Genestealer Hybrid, Ork or Eldar.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 14:18:16


Post by: Vatsetis


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Battle siblings sounds less cool, it lacks the alliteration.
If you don't want new models, why do you want this?


The aim is to create female space marines that are almost indistinguishable both lore wise and model wise from the current male space marines. This is the only way in which the 40K community will be free from misoginist harrasment and death threats.





How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 14:20:51


Post by: kirotheavenger


You said that before, I don't think it's true.
I've already addressed it, it's mischaracterisation and hyperbole.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 14:24:16


Post by: Grimskul


Vatsetis wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Battle siblings sounds less cool, it lacks the alliteration.
If you don't want new models, why do you want this?


The aim is to create female space marines that are almost indistinguishable both lore wise and model wise from the current male space marines. This is the only way in which the 40K community will be free from misoginist harrasment and death threats.





I think you're overstating how much of an impact that would make. It's not like these people in the community suddenly disappear the moment any type of female representation exists within marines. The fact that they are present at all when there are already existing female-only or mixed gender factions means that it's likely less to do with the setting and more of a general human thing where you can have crazies from any fandom. You're always to going to have some measure of toxicity/bad apples in a community, especially nowadays online thanks to anonymity.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 14:41:25


Post by: the_scotsman


Personally I think this thread is just gonna be doomed from the start. The previous thread was successfully derailed and locked, and the folks that got that to happen are just going to come in here for a little victory lap around the chessboard, cooing and celebrating their victory.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 15:04:23


Post by: G00fySmiley


 the_scotsman wrote:
Personally I think this thread is just gonna be doomed from the start. The previous thread was successfully derailed and locked, and the folks that got that to happen are just going to come in here for a little victory lap around the chessboard, cooing and celebrating their victory.


yup, they will ignore the premise and we will have people that for some reason care that the genitals on all their plastic space soldiers match vs the other end where SJWs will claim this is personally attacking them or a certain group rather than reading the topic and actually addressing that or *gasp* choosing to not engage as they have nothing to add to it.

i think the cawl primaris was the best point but going forward he could still discover that the rubricon works on female children as well and boom problem solved.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 15:05:11


Post by: Sledgehammer


From a product perspective you risk homogenization of ranges, and cannibalism of interest by adding females to marines.

By having the ranges be more unique you offer up a clear and distinct design style that may appeal more acutely to a demographic. When you start to add that to other ranges you make it increasingly less likely that customers will buy into other parts of the range because they may be sufficiently satisfied by the current offerings.

I think having separate fantasies and identities between the ranges is very, very important, and this decision would undermine that.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 15:07:31


Post by: Rihgu


 Sledgehammer wrote:
From a product perspective you risk homogenization of ranges, and cannibalism of interest by adding females to marines.


In what way?

Seriously, Sisters of Battle are different enough from "female marines" that I can't see anybody who would be interested in them and their unique aesthetic to go, "but, oh, these female space marines, they're so similar, how can I choose!?"

I mean, we can see it in action already, with people already not picking Sisters of Battle and instead converting their own Female Space Marines. If what you said was a high risk, these people would just be playing Sisters of Battle instead.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 15:13:21


Post by: Sledgehammer


Rihgu wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
From a product perspective you risk homogenization of ranges, and cannibalism of interest by adding females to marines.


In what way?

Seriously, Sisters of Battle are different enough from "female marines" that I can't see anybody who would be interested in them and their unique aesthetic to go, "but, oh, these female space marines, they're so similar, how can I choose!?"

I mean, we can see it in action already, with people already not picking Sisters of Battle and instead converting their own Female Space Marines. If what you said was a high risk, these people would just be playing Sisters of Battle instead.
Because you're adding something to a range that fulfills and competes with a fantasy (bad ass women in power armor) that already exists. Now you have two products that appeal to the same demographic with double the production costs. Why would you want to split your demographic between two separate products when they could be sufficiently satisfied with one?

I mean seriously do you think people are going to jive with Sisters as much as they have if they add female Space Marines?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 15:15:05


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Dolnikan wrote:
Given what the Space Marine process entails, I would say include female heads and use the same bodies. After all that work, and with such thick armour, there really won't be much of a trace of the original body shape left. And yes, I would also go for short-cropped hair, for the typical practical reasons. That would give a badass look.


This.

Astartes are no longer human. So there’s no reason for either male or female Astartes armour to conform to classical stereotypes.

I mean, Astartes are traditionally entirely asexual. They don’t have relationships. They don’t have babies. Have the removal of lady parts part of the body horror transformation process from Homo Sapien to Homo Astartes.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 15:17:49


Post by: Rihgu


 Sledgehammer wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
From a product perspective you risk homogenization of ranges, and cannibalism of interest by adding females to marines.


In what way?

Seriously, Sisters of Battle are different enough from "female marines" that I can't see anybody who would be interested in them and their unique aesthetic to go, "but, oh, these female space marines, they're so similar, how can I choose!?"

I mean, we can see it in action already, with people already not picking Sisters of Battle and instead converting their own Female Space Marines. If what you said was a high risk, these people would just be playing Sisters of Battle instead.
Because your adding something to a range that fulfills and competes with a fantasy (bad ass women in power armor) that already exists. Now you have two products that appeal to the same demographic with double the production costs. Why would you want to split your demographic between two separate products when they could be sufficiently satisfied with one?

I mean seriously do you think people are going to jive with Sisters as much as they have if they add female Space Marines?


You're ignoring the fact that most of the people who want FSM are already making FSM instead of playing Sisters of Battle.
Female Space Marines are a different aesthetic, lore, fantasy than Sisters of Battle and reducing them both to just "bad ass women in power armor" is incorrect. The products appeal to different demographics as already shown in reality in the current day.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 15:20:19


Post by: some bloke


Just a reminder, for the sake of trying to keep this poll going for long enough to get decent results:

Please can anyone who wants to argue with anyone over what they've said in a post here do it via Private Message!

By all means voice your own opinions on the subject, but please don't pick up something someone else has said and try to tell them that they are wrong about it!


I really don't want these threads to get shut down before they've had a chance to run for a couple of days!


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 15:23:44


Post by: Sledgehammer


Rihgu wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
From a product perspective you risk homogenization of ranges, and cannibalism of interest by adding females to marines.


In what way?

Seriously, Sisters of Battle are different enough from "female marines" that I can't see anybody who would be interested in them and their unique aesthetic to go, "but, oh, these female space marines, they're so similar, how can I choose!?"

I mean, we can see it in action already, with people already not picking Sisters of Battle and instead converting their own Female Space Marines. If what you said was a high risk, these people would just be playing Sisters of Battle instead.
Because your adding something to a range that fulfills and competes with a fantasy (bad ass women in power armor) that already exists. Now you have two products that appeal to the same demographic with double the production costs. Why would you want to split your demographic between two separate products when they could be sufficiently satisfied with one?

I mean seriously do you think people are going to jive with Sisters as much as they have if they add female Space Marines?


You're ignoring the fact that most of the people who want FSM are already making FSM instead of playing Sisters of Battle.
Female Space Marines are a different aesthetic, lore, fantasy than Sisters of Battle and reducing them both to just "bad ass women in power armor" is incorrect. The products appeal to different demographics as already shown in reality in the current day.
So if the demographic that wants female space marines so badly just converts them with the established kits why would a company go out of its way to undermine the lore, aesthetic, and demographic appeal, all whilst incurring additional production costs to make them?

Marines are a fraternal brotherhood of beefed up space monks and sisters are nuns with guns. You risk undermining both ranges and fantasies by continuing to advocate for homogenization.

If you REALLY REALLY want female space marines the only way I'd concede is if they remained as sisters of battle crossing the Rubicon Primaris. Otherwise you undermine the idea of fraternal and sorority militant orders.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 15:54:03


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


A.T. wrote:
The poll is missing an option: "don't change the models".

The existing marine heads are entirely suitable for a girl who has been bio-engineered into a 500lb slab of vat grown muscle and testosterone - there is no reason that the process would stop at the neck, especially given the young age of recruits.

There is ultimately a difference between having female space marines and 'feminine' space marines. Particularly at the 28mm scale there is only so much you can do, 3rd party heads tend to have slimmer jaws and softer features which give them a female appearance but not that of a testosterone-poisoned gene warrior.

This is the correct answer.



How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 16:35:11


Post by: Cybtroll


It is in theory but the current Space Marine head will require some reworking in order to function as proposed. I personally think it would be easier simply to add a few more head options.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 16:46:42


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Since male space marines have a variety of heads and faces, I feel female space marines should have suitably feminine female heads and faces as well as some less feminine ones.

The only reason to use masculine heads and say the female space marines look the same would be if every space marine looked like Robert Z’dar. They don’t, so normal human heads for everyone.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 16:58:07


Post by: Beardedragon


If looking at this realistically speaking, why would Games workshop, who are not known for doing gak they dont have to, waste their time with making female body parts so you can have female look alike space marines, for their most selling army?

The space marine army already sells like wild fire, they dont "have" to make new kit parts like female heads or torsos. so they most likely wont do it.

But if we went by the idea that they wanted to do so, i guess a more female torso or something like that would fit well. Sure one could add female helmets, but realistically speaking, why would you wear a different kind of helmet because you are female? except for wearing smaller helmets in the army today, there is no difference between male and female helmets.

I dont see different helmets with feminine features as making any sense. I only really see one way to do it and that would be to have a different torso that fits to the female physique. Im not even sure a female space marine would have boobs so im not even sure that would be needed. And even if they do, im not even sure that the chest plate alone would be different at all.

Furthermore, given that females no matter what you really do to them are generally smaller than men, probably even more so in a space marine setting that pumps testosterone in to their "victims" to turn them to space marines, which is probably amplified by the men, i could see maybe the female space marine having the same base size, but being a bit smaller in size as they wouldnt have the "need" to wear as large armor as the men does, when they arent as large. What would the point me? it would be wasted material that they wouldnt be able to move around in as easily.

With that we also add the chance of more using females in the tabletop game, because people want smaller miniatures, since they are easier to hide.

So no i dont see how they should do it in a way that makes sense. They would probably just add a female torso and maybe add a helmet with feminine figures which would make zero sense, and a sculpt thats just as large as the mens even though that too, wouldnt make any sense.

To be fair, people can just say that they are using an all female chapter if they want. Its not like we see the face of those wearing helmets anyway.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 17:03:04


Post by: Insectum7


I used to be on-board for adding them, but I've since reversed that position.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 18:04:54


Post by: Siegfriedfr


i vote that everytime a "we want female models cuz" post crops up, that its instantly locked and the result of this poll are linked in the lockup post.

Also, it should be stickied.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 18:12:56


Post by: CEO Kasen


Siegfriedfr wrote:
i vote that everytime a "we want female models cuz" post crops up, that its instantly locked and the result of this poll are linked in the lockup post.

Also, it should be stickied.


Because of a narrow 53%-47% majority? Way more niche opinions than that don't get locked.

Sticking it as an argument-silencer would be just the most hideous possible clown-mirror reflection on Dakka and the 40K community as a whole.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 18:39:59


Post by: Strg Alt


Why do I get the impression that the folks who want to introduce women into the SM faction are the same ones who tried previously without success to include Shaggy from Scoobie Doo into Mortal Kombat 11?



How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 18:55:41


Post by: Vatsetis


 Sledgehammer wrote:


So if the demographic that wants female space marines so badly just converts them with the established kits why would a company go out of its way to undermine the lore, aesthetic, and demographic appeal, all whilst incurring additional production costs to make them?


Because some people believe that doing so will expell misoginist from the 40K community and if that happened those people will be happy.

Its a solid reason.



How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 18:57:05


Post by: Grimtuff


 Strg Alt wrote:
Why do I get the impression that the folks who want to introduce women into the SM faction are the same ones who tried previously without success to include Shaggy from Scoobie Doo into Mortal Kombat 11?



Judging from all the cheesecake images of them you see on r/imaginarywarhammer and the like I think I know exactly what kind of person wants female SMs...


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 18:59:23


Post by: Deadnight


Saw this 'not-reiver' recently.

https://www.myminifactory.com/object/3d-print-female-armored-soldier-173944

That model on its own sold me on the idea female astartes can work, even if it leans towards more 'realistic than 'heroic' scale. Graceful, athletic and strong, yet feminine. Reminds me of most of the ladies I crossfitted with.

Imo, headswaps and keep everything the same is intellectually lazy. If you're adding females to the range, I think it's a bit insulting to the idea to ignore everything that makes them female.

And no, I'm.not talking boobplate and corsets, but I do think there should be at least one pun based on a model armed with 'power heels'. I saw someone use the term 'subdued femininity' and its something I tend to agree with. Look at stormcast and there is an obvious but aesthetically small difference between them. And it's 'tasteful'. Other examples from pp include the precursor knights and trencher long gunners where the kits have male and female troopers. You can't really tell the difference from a distance but they're there.

Doesnt need much. Softer facial features, more angled chin, not square, a bit more of a feminine shape at hips and chest breastplate without leaning towards boobplate and a feminine 'looking' haircut like a mohawk/ponytail/undercut would be ideal.

I would lean towards a new phobos armed unit to introduce them, as that's how gw seems to work these days. I like the notion of leaning towards thematicly empowered female characters like artemis/diana or else historical shield maidens, mythological valkyriea as to inspire their tactical role.

But yeah, purely from a modelling pov, lots of interesting projects and themes come to mind. Honestly, the idea excites me.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 19:01:59


Post by: Rihgu


 Grimtuff wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
Why do I get the impression that the folks who want to introduce women into the SM faction are the same ones who tried previously without success to include Shaggy from Scoobie Doo into Mortal Kombat 11?



Judging from all the cheesecake images of them you see on r/imaginarywarhammer and the like I think I know exactly what kind of person wants female SMs...


And judging from a lot of the images I've seen... I think I know exactly what kind of person wants SMs to remain all male...


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 19:13:04


Post by: carldooley


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Battle siblings sounds less cool, it lacks the alliteration.
If you don't want new models, why do you want this?



Anyone here read Michael Anderle's Kurtherian Gambit series? A nice gender neutral alliteration is 'Battle Bitch' ( and yes, the males in the series are called that too).


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 19:15:02


Post by: Sledgehammer


Vatsetis wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:


So if the demographic that wants female space marines so badly just converts them with the established kits why would a company go out of its way to undermine the lore, aesthetic, and demographic appeal, all whilst incurring additional production costs to make them?


Because some people believe that doing so will expell misoginist from the 40K community and if that happened those people will be happy.

Its a solid reason.

I think there are much better ways of doing that. The update to sisters and the integration of women into the guard would be a much better step. I just don't think you have to compromise the lore or the identity of factions in order to obtain that.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 19:30:12


Post by: Vatsetis


Apparently SM is the only faction that matters for representation since they are the flagship.

According to this logic, all other factions can be restricted by the lore... But SM alone have no other in universe identity apart from representing whatever each gamer wants to represent.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 19:33:57


Post by: Gert


That is also not true. All the factions that are mixed should be getting their range updates and nobody from the other thread has denied this. They're saying that as well as that, the flagship product that takes up over 50% of the game should be mixed as well.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 19:50:05


Post by: vipoid


I don't particularly care either way but honestly I would hope that GW would have priorities other than revising the Marine range yet again.

Given that there are plethoras of female head-swaps available elsewhere, it seems anyone desperately wanting female Space Marines is hardly without options (which is more than can be said for, say, Eldar players who just want models that aren't old enough to drink ).


Vatsetis wrote:
The aim is to create female space marines that are almost indistinguishable both lore wise and model wise from the current male space marines.


You mean like using the models that already exist and saying they've been so heavily modified that they're virtually indistinguishable from male space marines?

What problem are we solving again?


Vatsetis wrote:
This is the only way in which the 40K community will be free from misoginist harrasment and death threats.


I demand male Sisters of Battle models! It's the only way the 40k community will ever be free of misandry, harassment and death threats.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 19:56:15


Post by: Vatsetis


If you frame things like that is sound a bit absurd... But I swear you is very, very important for some people.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:03:52


Post by: vipoid


Very well, let me phrase it differently - are there enough players wanting female Space Marines for it to be worth GW putting female heads in future kits (or, God help us, remaking all the existing SM kits to have female heads), as opposed to the people wanting female SMs just converting their own via appropriate head-swaps?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:07:50


Post by: Tiberias


Vatsetis wrote:
If you frame things like that is sound a bit absurd... But I swear you is very, very important for some people.


Ok but what if I say it is really, really important to me that GW makes male sisters of battle and male sisters of silence. That does not mean it's a good idea to implement, which female space marines are not imo. I voted not to implement them.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:09:05


Post by: Vatsetis




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vipoid wrote:
Very well, let me phrase it differently - are there enough players wanting female Space Marines for it to be worth GW putting female heads in future kits (or, God help us, remaking all the existing SM kits to have female heads), as opposed to the people wanting female SMs just converting their own via appropriate head-swaps?


It seems that a simple head sprue for FSM would have a similar impact as the Captain Marvel movie in regards to female representation worldwide... So probably yes.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:12:22


Post by: Crimson


 vipoid wrote:

Given that there are plethoras of female head-swaps available elsewhere, it seems anyone desperately wanting female Space Marines is hardly without options

I used to think that this was enough, but now I just want GW to make it official. The reason is the bizarre amount of hostility topic receives. Like I literally cannot post that I posted in this thread into one of the biggest marine groups on FB, because it would get swarmed by hate and then mods would delete it. Having GW to say, 'yeah, you can canonically do that' would help.

Also, if you want to stick to official GW products (like you need to play in GW store that doesn't allow third party or something) then there aren't that many options for marine-sized female heads. (SoB heads look weird for example, they're too small.)


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:16:21


Post by: Tiberias


Vatsetis wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vipoid wrote:
Very well, let me phrase it differently - are there enough players wanting female Space Marines for it to be worth GW putting female heads in future kits (or, God help us, remaking all the existing SM kits to have female heads), as opposed to the people wanting female SMs just converting their own via appropriate head-swaps?


It seems that a simple head sprue for FSM would have a similar impact as the Captain Marvel movie in regards to female representation worldwide... So probably yes.


What was the impact? I'm genuinely asking here.

Crimson wrote:
 vipoid wrote:

Given that there are plethoras of female head-swaps available elsewhere, it seems anyone desperately wanting female Space Marines is hardly without options

I used to think that this was enough, but now I just want GW to make it official. The reason is the bizarre amount of hostility topic receives. Like I literally cannot post that I posted in this thread into one of the biggest marine groups on FB, because it would get swarmed by hate and then mods would delete it. Having GW to say, 'yeah, you can canonically do that' would help.

Also, if you want to stick to official GW products (like you need to play in GW store that doesn't allow third party or something) then there aren't that many options for marine-sized female heads. (SoB heads look weird for example, they're too small.)


I am also genuinely asking this: why is it so important that GW makes it canon?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:20:46


Post by: Gert


Tiberias wrote:

I am also genuinely asking this: why is it so important that GW makes it canon?

A lot of the hate female SM and the hobbyists that make them get relies on "that's not canon" as a justification. The idea would hopefully be that if GW takes away the justification, and it becomes harder for people to accept the point of view of hateful people. This is wishful thinking because there isn't any data to base this theory off for obvious reasons.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:22:09


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


Deadnight wrote:
Saw this 'not-reiver' recently.

https://www.myminifactory.com/object/3d-print-female-armored-soldier-173944

That model on its own sold me on the idea female astartes can work, even if it leans towards more 'realistic than 'heroic' scale. Graceful, athletic and strong, yet feminine. Reminds me of most of the ladies I crossfitted with.

Imo, headswaps and keep everything the same is intellectually lazy. If you're adding females to the range, I think it's a bit insulting to the idea to ignore everything that makes them female.

And no, I'm.not talking boobplate and corsets, but I do think there should be at least one pun based on a model armed with 'power heels'. I saw someone use the term 'subdued femininity' and its something I tend to agree with. Look at stormcast and there is an obvious but aesthetically small difference between them. And it's 'tasteful'. Other examples from pp include the precursor knights and trencher long gunners where the kits have male and female troopers. You can't really tell the difference from a distance but they're there.

Doesnt need much. Softer facial features, more angled chin, not square, a bit more of a feminine shape at hips and chest breastplate without leaning towards boobplate and a feminine 'looking' haircut like a mohawk/ponytail/undercut would be ideal.

I would lean towards a new phobos armed unit to introduce them, as that's how gw seems to work these days. I like the notion of leaning towards thematicly empowered female characters like artemis/diana or else historical shield maidens, mythological valkyriea as to inspire their tactical role.

But yeah, purely from a modelling pov, lots of interesting projects and themes come to mind. Honestly, the idea excites me.

There is nothing feminine about that model though. It is a female space marine done right - it looks basically exactly like a "male" space marine with a ponytail - put a bald head on it with some wires coming out of the neck to the bionic eye...now all the sudden it looks more masculine.

put whatever heads you want on your models ladies and gents...IMO they should all be wearing helmets anyways...the 40k battlefield is quite noxious.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:22:33


Post by: Crimson


Tiberias wrote:

I am also genuinely asking this: why is it so important that GW makes it canon?

Well, representation in the main faction is rather big deal in itself. And it would help to shut down the bullies and bigots in the hobby to whom this topic is like a red rag to a bull.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:26:40


Post by: Vatsetis


Well it is assume that just as Captain Marvel had a huge and positive impact regarding female visibility the same will happend with FSM... And as the MCU is now more female friendly nowadays the future 40k community will be more female friendly if only GW made that tiny effort of producing that FSM head sprue.

Its all hypothetichal, obviously... But some individuals have a real faith in that it would happend.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:29:59


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


 Gert wrote:
Tiberias wrote:

I am also genuinely asking this: why is it so important that GW makes it canon?

A lot of the hate female SM and the hobbyists that make them get relies on "that's not canon" as a justification. The idea would hopefully be that if GW takes away the justification, and it becomes harder for people to accept the point of view of hateful people. This is wishful thinking because there isn't any data to base this theory off for obvious reasons.

Quite the opposite if you really think about it. That group of people are seeking to sexualize space marines. Space marines are Asexual.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:31:10


Post by: skchsan


This post may offend some people here, but the moment you brought the politics of 'political correctness of depicting female population' in the distant fictional setting of 40k, you are either instigating for the sake of instigating an argument between misogynists vs misinformed feminists, or you're just looking for pin-up 40k because you're a closet otaku that hasn't seen the light of day since pre-covid.

Side bar - contrary to popular belief, feminism is not anti-misogyny - it's anti-sexism. It aims to address the root of the problem in our patriarchal society that is sexism, not misogyny that is the named-offshoot of sexism. In short, misogyny can be said to be the PRACTICE of sexism, but not sexism itself.

There is nothing misogynistic about non-inclusion of female models in a fictional game setting. Following, all these discussion on "if we put a female looking head on this thing, then this must be a female!" Really, just mulch on that idea in your head for a while and you'll see how sexist and irrational that is. So then, if a man has a very pretty face, say, prettier than any women you've seen in your life, does that make that individual a woman? Just, stop. Period.

In fact, the more you push for "well, if this model is supposed to be a female, then it should have prettier faces and slender forms, because that's what women are!", you are actually partaking in the very sexism you're trying to address to be more inclusive.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:32:44


Post by: Gert


 some bloke wrote:
Ok, so first things first:

Discussions about whether this should or should not happen have already been had and the topic was closed!



In fairness, the OP put "No female SM" as a poll option, contradicting themselves before the thread had even begun.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:40:20


Post by: Tiberias


Crimson wrote:
Tiberias wrote:

I am also genuinely asking this: why is it so important that GW makes it canon?

Well, representation in the main faction is rather big deal in itself. And it would help to shut down the bullies and bigots in the hobby to whom this topic is like a red rag to a bull.


Call me uninformed/naive, but is this a widespread problem that male hobbyists bully female hobbyists? I'm not saying it isn't, just haven't encountered it.

Vatsetis wrote:Well it is assume that just as Captain Marvel had a huge and positive impact regarding female visibility the same will happend with FSM... And as the MCU is now more female friendly nowadays the future 40k community will be more female friendly if only GW made that tiny effort of producing that FSM head sprue.

Its all hypothetichal, obviously... But some individuals have a real faith in that it would happend.


Sure, I get that. There are a lot of female superheroes both in the DC and marvel comics and female fans want to see more of those, probably also lot of male fans.

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I'm genuinely asking: what's wrong with having an IP like 40k where a subfaction like space marines is all male? It's a dystopian nightmare where child soldiers are pumped to the gills with space-steroids, psycho indoctrinated and sent into battle. What does having those asexual hunks of flesh being female solve? Again, I'm genuinely asking because I don't quite understand it


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:46:34


Post by: Vatsetis


If you frame it that way it certainly dosent make much sense.

But apparently SM should not be a subfaction linked to the general nightmerish lore of 40K but be transform mainly into a vessel for player representation... In that sense is vital that FSM are canonically possible.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:47:43


Post by: skchsan


Tiberias wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Tiberias wrote:

I am also genuinely asking this: why is it so important that GW makes it canon?

Well, representation in the main faction is rather big deal in itself. And it would help to shut down the bullies and bigots in the hobby to whom this topic is like a red rag to a bull.


Call me uninformed/naive, but is this a widespread problem that male hobbyists bully female hobbyists? I'm not saying it isn't, just haven't encountered it.
You haven't encountered it because there isn't. You will not see a single 40k player telling women to f-off because "it's men's hobby since it only has male models, so girls should go play with dolls". In fact, this type of hobby is known to draw in introverts - not the bigots Crimson's trying to imply are the majority.

In my experience, my S/O is treated like an untouchable goddess when she accompanies me to FLGS.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:48:33


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


Tiberias wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Tiberias wrote:

I am also genuinely asking this: why is it so important that GW makes it canon?

Well, representation in the main faction is rather big deal in itself. And it would help to shut down the bullies and bigots in the hobby to whom this topic is like a red rag to a bull.


Call me uninformed/naive, but is this a widespread problem that male hobbyists bully female hobbyists? I'm not saying it isn't, just haven't encountered it.

Vatsetis wrote:Well it is assume that just as Captain Marvel had a huge and positive impact regarding female visibility the same will happend with FSM... And as the MCU is now more female friendly nowadays the future 40k community will be more female friendly if only GW made that tiny effort of producing that FSM head sprue.

Its all hypothetichal, obviously... But some individuals have a real faith in that it would happend.


Sure, I get that. There are a lot of female superheroes both in the DC and marvel comics and female fans want to see more of those, probably also lot of male fans.

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I'm genuinely asking: what's wrong with having an IP like 40k where a subfaction like space marines is all male? It's a dystopian nightmare where child soldiers are pumped to the gills with space-steroids, psycho indoctrinated and sent into battle. What does having those asexual hunks of flesh being female solve? Again, I'm genuinely asking because I don't quite understand it

Quite the opposite. Female hobbyist are welcomed with much enthusiasm lol. There just aren't too many of them.

"I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I'm genuinely asking: what's wrong with having an IP like 40k where a subfaction like space marines is all male? It's a dystopian nightmare where child soldiers are pumped to the gills with space-steroids, psycho indoctrinated and sent into battle. What does having those asexual hunks of flesh being female solve? Again, I'm genuinely asking because I don't quite understand it"

You mean that the imperium of man that conquered 2 million planets by military force and sacrifices 20k people a day to keep it's dead emperor alive and no one has any civil rights...women aren't represented amongst it's super soldiers who aren't even human or technically male? I feel outraged right now...





How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:49:09


Post by: Gert


I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I'm genuinely asking: what's wrong with having an IP like 40k where a subfaction like space marines is all male? It's a dystopian nightmare where child soldiers are pumped to the gills with space-steroids, psycho indoctrinated and sent into battle. What does having those asexual hunks of flesh being female solve? Again, I'm genuinely asking because I don't quite understand it


It's more the issue that faction being the flagship and consists of more than 50% of the game. In reality, every other faction is a subfaction to Space Marines.
SM also aren't presented as asexual rather the miniatures are all male-coded and use masculine pronouns in media. As well as this, GW is very bad at actually presenting the factions that are mixed forces with mixed minis, Guard especially. Ironically SoB have more male-coded models than Guard have female-coded models despite SoB being the "female" army.
So yes, absolutely make sure the factions that are and always have been mixed forces get that represented but at the same time the range is still going to be massively dominated by male-coded miniatures.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:50:18


Post by: Sledgehammer


Tiberias wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Tiberias wrote:

I am also genuinely asking this: why is it so important that GW makes it canon?

Well, representation in the main faction is rather big deal in itself. And it would help to shut down the bullies and bigots in the hobby to whom this topic is like a red rag to a bull.


Call me uninformed/naive, but is this a widespread problem that male hobbyists bully female hobbyists? I'm not saying it isn't, just haven't encountered it.

Vatsetis wrote:Well it is assume that just as Captain Marvel had a huge and positive impact regarding female visibility the same will happend with FSM... And as the MCU is now more female friendly nowadays the future 40k community will be more female friendly if only GW made that tiny effort of producing that FSM head sprue.

Its all hypothetichal, obviously... But some individuals have a real faith in that it would happend.


Sure, I get that. There are a lot of female superheroes both in the DC and marvel comics and female fans want to see more of those, probably also lot of male fans.

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I'm genuinely asking: what's wrong with having an IP like 40k where a subfaction like space marines is all male? It's a dystopian nightmare where child soldiers are pumped to the gills with space-steroids, psycho indoctrinated and sent into battle. What does having those asexual hunks of flesh being female solve? Again, I'm genuinely asking because I don't quite understand it
I have always been of the opinion that elevation is better than amending when it comes to increasing representation. Miles Morales, and Captai Marvel are actually good examples. They don't change established characters in order to fit goalposts. Adding in characters and and themes while respecting the old ones have always been the most successful. You can increase representation and promote inclusivness in ways that don't hurt established settings and storylines.

Sisters, guard, inquisition, mechanicus, imperial navy, scions, commissars all have a great deal of space for growth.

It's why Miles Morales works, and new Ghost Busters doesn't.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:54:16


Post by: Gert


 Sledgehammer wrote:

Sisters, guard, inquisition, mechanicus, imperial navy, scions, commissars all have a great deal of space for growth.

One of those isn't a playable faction and three are the same faction.

It's why Miles Morales works, and new Ghost Busters doesn't.

Ghostbusters was just a bad film. It wasn't bad because "wiminz", it was bad because it tried to rehash an old film with a modern spin and failed miserably.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:54:19


Post by: Crimson


Tiberias wrote:

Call me uninformed/naive, but is this a widespread problem that male hobbyists bully female hobbyists? I'm not saying it isn't, just haven't encountered it.

On the internet? Have you seen the internet?

Sure, I get that. There are a lot of female superheroes both in the DC and marvel comics and female fans want to see more of those, probably also lot of male fans.

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I'm genuinely asking: what's wrong with having an IP like 40k where a subfaction like space marines is all male? It's a dystopian nightmare where child soldiers are pumped to the gills with space-steroids, psycho indoctrinated and sent into battle. What does having those asexual hunks of flesh being female solve? Again, I'm genuinely asking because I don't quite understand it

The matter is skewed by the marines being so overwhelmingly huge chunk of the game and associated fiction. I don't think it would really be a huge problem if, say, Tempestus Scions, were male only. But excluding female representation from marines excludes it from most of the 40K because most of 40K is about marines.

Now this could be addressed by diminishing the importance and prominence of marines, but GW doing that seems far more unlikely than them adding female marines.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:55:43


Post by: Tiberias


Vatsetis wrote:
If you frame it that way it certainly dosent make much sense.

But apparently SM should not be a subfaction linked to the general nightmerish lore of 40K but be transform mainly a vessel for player representation... In that sense is vital that SM can be canonically females.


Ok, but what's wrong with us basement dwelling guys having a male faction just for us? Does that push female hobbyist out of the hobby? It has always been a male dominated hobby, because guys don't grow up, only their toys get more expensive. I genuinely don't understand why every IP like 40k for example HAS to be equally represented regarding the lore and the models.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:57:19


Post by: skchsan


Tiberias wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
If you frame it that way it certainly dosent make much sense.

But apparently SM should not be a subfaction linked to the general nightmerish lore of 40K but be transform mainly a vessel for player representation... In that sense is vital that SM can be canonically females.


Ok, but what's wrong with us basement dwelling guys having a male faction just for us? Does that push female hobbyist out of the hobby? It has always been a male dominated hobby, because guys don't grow up, only their toys get more expensive. I genuinely don't understand why every IP like 40k for example HAS to be equally represented regarding the lore and the models.
There really is no problem. Some people just want to see boobies on their miniatures, not because they want more women to play the game.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 20:58:06


Post by: Gert


Custodes exist as a male-only faction and don't constitute half the entire range.
And to answer the second point Tiberias, it doesn't have to be 100% perfectly equal but 40k isn't even 5% despite the background stating otherwise.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:00:15


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Gert wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:

Sisters, guard, inquisition, mechanicus, imperial navy, scions, commissars all have a great deal of space for growth.

One of those isn't a playable faction and three are the same faction.

It's why Miles Morales works, and new Ghost Busters doesn't.

Ghostbusters was just a bad film. It wasn't bad because "wiminz", it was bad because it tried to rehash an old film with a modern spin and failed miserably.
Thats my point. It tried to cram an existing property into goal posts without understanding what made the setting and story good to begin with. You can elevate a setting by bringing more into it, not by trying to change what it is in order to meet some prescribed quota.

And those are all positions in the lore where more characters can be grown out of without contradicting what came before.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:03:38


Post by: Vatsetis


Tiberias wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
If you frame it that way it certainly dosent make much sense.

But apparently SM should not be a subfaction linked to the general nightmerish lore of 40K but be transform mainly a vessel for player representation... In that sense is vital that SM can be canonically females.


Ok, but what's wrong with us basement dwelling guys having a male faction just for us? Does that push female hobbyist out of the hobby? It has always been a male dominated hobby, because guys don't grow up, only their toys get more expensive. I genuinely don't understand why every IP like 40k for example HAS to be equally represented regarding the lore and the models.


Well you could have a niche faction as Custodes being all male.

The flagship faction of psicoindoctrinated supersoldiers at the service of a dogmatic theocracy should be able to represent anyone and therefore be mixed gender.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:04:21


Post by: Grimskul


 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:

Sisters, guard, inquisition, mechanicus, imperial navy, scions, commissars all have a great deal of space for growth.

One of those isn't a playable faction and three are the same faction.

It's why Miles Morales works, and new Ghost Busters doesn't.

Ghostbusters was just a bad film. It wasn't bad because "wiminz", it was bad because it tried to rehash an old film with a modern spin and failed miserably.
Thats my point. It tried to cram an existing property into goal posts without understanding what made the setting and story good to begin with. You can elevate a setting by bringing more into it, not by trying to change what it is in order to meet some prescribed quota.

And those are all positions in the lore where more characters can be grown out of without contradicting what came before.


It's also ironic that the new Ghost Busters also actively berated and shat on the existing fanbase and potential viewers by calling them all the "isms" under the sun if they didn't watch or like the movie and then were shocked when it did poorly. Similar to how so many people pushing for FSM inevitably use bigots and sexists that apparently exist as a major part of the community as their reason to push for this change and usually calling the majority of the fandom these very labels for not agreeing.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:06:46


Post by: Tiberias


Vatsetis wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
If you frame it that way it certainly dosent make much sense.

But apparently SM should not be a subfaction linked to the general nightmerish lore of 40K but be transform mainly a vessel for player representation... In that sense is vital that SM can be canonically females.


Ok, but what's wrong with us basement dwelling guys having a male faction just for us? Does that push female hobbyist out of the hobby? It has always been a male dominated hobby, because guys don't grow up, only their toys get more expensive. I genuinely don't understand why every IP like 40k for example HAS to be equally represented regarding the lore and the models.


Well you could have a niche faction as Custodes being all male.

The flagship faction of psicoindoctrinated supersoldiers at the service of a dogmatic theocracy should be able to represent anyone and therefore be mixed gender.


But, why? What does space Marines being the poster boy faction have to do with it?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:09:15


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Grimskul wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:

Sisters, guard, inquisition, mechanicus, imperial navy, scions, commissars all have a great deal of space for growth.

One of those isn't a playable faction and three are the same faction.

It's why Miles Morales works, and new Ghost Busters doesn't.

Ghostbusters was just a bad film. It wasn't bad because "wiminz", it was bad because it tried to rehash an old film with a modern spin and failed miserably.
Thats my point. It tried to cram an existing property into goal posts without understanding what made the setting and story good to begin with. You can elevate a setting by bringing more into it, not by trying to change what it is in order to meet some prescribed quota.

And those are all positions in the lore where more characters can be grown out of without contradicting what came before.


It's also ironic that the new Ghost Busters also actively berated and shat on the existing fanbase and potential viewers by calling them all the "isms" under the sun if they didn't watch or like the movie and then were shocked when it did poorly. Similar to how so many people pushing for FSM inevitably use bigots and sexists that apparently exist as a major part of the community as their reason to push for this change and usually calling the majority of the fandom these very labels for not agreeing.
Which is partially why I brought it up.

Is there a potential element of misogyny amongst bad actors? Probably. Is it the main point of contention? Probably not.

You can positively make a setting more inclusive by growing it. You will fail when you try to change core characters, themes, or factions in a setting to meet that criteria. Another example of this is the new Star Wars trilogy and the overall attitude toward the established fan base vs the new disney + phase. One has been met positively both critically and by the fans, the other has not.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:09:26


Post by: Grimtuff


 Grimskul wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:

Sisters, guard, inquisition, mechanicus, imperial navy, scions, commissars all have a great deal of space for growth.

One of those isn't a playable faction and three are the same faction.

It's why Miles Morales works, and new Ghost Busters doesn't.

Ghostbusters was just a bad film. It wasn't bad because "wiminz", it was bad because it tried to rehash an old film with a modern spin and failed miserably.
Thats my point. It tried to cram an existing property into goal posts without understanding what made the setting and story good to begin with. You can elevate a setting by bringing more into it, not by trying to change what it is in order to meet some prescribed quota.

And those are all positions in the lore where more characters can be grown out of without contradicting what came before.


It's also ironic that the new Ghost Busters also actively berated and shat on the existing fanbase and potential viewers by calling them all the "isms" under the sun if they didn't watch or like the movie and then were shocked when it did poorly. Similar to how so many people pushing for FSM inevitably use bigots and sexists that apparently exist as a major part of the community as their reason to push for this change and usually calling the majority of the fandom these very labels for not agreeing.


Still waiting for "neckbeard" to be wheeled out. It's like the Godwin's Law of nerd arguments.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:09:50


Post by: Crimson


I certainly never implied that bigots and bullies were any sort of majority. Though they definitely do exist in larger numbers than I would prefer. But yeah, most of the people in the hobby are perfectly nice.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:13:11


Post by: Vatsetis




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
If you frame it that way it certainly dosent make much sense.

But apparently SM should not be a subfaction linked to the general nightmerish lore of 40K but be transform mainly a vessel for player representation... In that sense is vital that SM can be canonically females.


Ok, but what's wrong with us basement dwelling guys having a male faction just for us? Does that push female hobbyist out of the hobby? It has always been a male dominated hobby, because guys don't grow up, only their toys get more expensive. I genuinely don't understand why every IP like 40k for example HAS to be equally represented regarding the lore and the models.


Well you could have a niche faction as Custodes being all male.

The flagship faction of psicoindoctrinated supersoldiers at the service of a dogmatic theocracy should be able to represent anyone and therefore be mixed gender.


But, why? What does space Marines being the poster boy faction have to do with it?


Its some esoteric reasoning... Something on the lines of "representation needs visibility"... You know its complicated, after a 70 page thread things werent very clear.

But some people believe FSM could change completelly for the good the 40k community. Cant we give them the benefit of the doubt?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:17:01


Post by: TinyLegions


Delete


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:19:22


Post by: TheBestBucketHead


I don't care if they add female marines or not, I just want it to make sense and look good. Boob armor looks like trash, so only really factions like Space Wolves and Blood Angels, who have aesthetic as important pieces of their lore would even do it. Just add heads. Space wolves could get valkyries, which could be cool.
Necrons are cooler anyways.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:19:45


Post by: Tiberias


Vatsetis wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
If you frame it that way it certainly dosent make much sense.

But apparently SM should not be a subfaction linked to the general nightmerish lore of 40K but be transform mainly a vessel for player representation... In that sense is vital that SM can be canonically females.


Ok, but what's wrong with us basement dwelling guys having a male faction just for us? Does that push female hobbyist out of the hobby? It has always been a male dominated hobby, because guys don't grow up, only their toys get more expensive. I genuinely don't understand why every IP like 40k for example HAS to be equally represented regarding the lore and the models.


Well you could have a niche faction as Custodes being all male.

The flagship faction of psicoindoctrinated supersoldiers at the service of a dogmatic theocracy should be able to represent anyone and therefore be mixed gender.


But, why? What does space Marines being the poster boy faction have to do with it?


Its some esoteric reasoning... Something on the lines of "representation needs visibility"... You know its complicated, after a 70 page thread things werent very clear.

But some people believe FSM could change completelly for the good the 40k community. Cant we give them the benefit of the doubt?


In my humble opinion: no. We're talking about introducing a massive change to both lore and models and it's still rather unclear to me what problem we are trying to solve with this.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:21:18


Post by: skchsan


Vatsetis wrote:
But some people believe FSM could change completelly for the good the 40k community. Cant we give them the benefit of the doubt?
No, because while ignorance is not a crime, unwillingness to learn is.

If these people who are pushing for FSM for the sake of inclusion, then obviously they're either born in the 50~60, or their thought process was heavily influenced by how men of those times viewed women.

Notions such as 'girly girl' are ideas and ideals we conjured up as a patriarchal society. We as society told women what they can be and what they can't be, and if you think adding boobs, making waist more slender, give more pretty faces to PLASTIC FIGURINES as a means of reparation or attracting more female players, you're just straight up buying into that old notion that really needs to be thrown out.

In a realistic sense, just as men who invest in their body to look like a male figures as represented in 40k are the least likely people to pick up this hobby, in parallel, women who invest in their body to form an hourglass shape with double F's and Kim Kardashian's butt are the least likely member of the population to pick up this hobby. So then, who are we trying to please by releasing 'visibly representational female figures'? - the target audience is the very population who look at women simply as "objects of desire".


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:24:20


Post by: Gert


You understand that someone born in the 1950-1960s would be 60-70 years old right? I don't know about your local scene but there ain't many seniors interested in either Warhammer or DakkaDakka round these parts.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:26:00


Post by: skchsan


 Gert wrote:
You understand that someone born in the 1950-1960s would be 60-70 years old right? I don't know about your local scene but there ain't many seniors interested in either Warhammer or DakkaDakka round these parts.
And if that's what you got out of my post, then you obviously missed the point.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:31:01


Post by: TinyLegions


 Crimson wrote:
I certainly never implied that bigots and bullies were any sort of majority. Though they definitely do exist in larger numbers than I would prefer. But yeah, most of the people in the hobby are perfectly nice.


Do you have any documentation on this? By the way, am I being bigoted or am I bullying if I table an opponent with my Crimson Fists and exclaim 'You just got fisted!"


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:41:44


Post by: CEO Kasen


TinyLegions wrote:
By the way, am I being bigoted or am I bullying if I table an opponent with my Crimson Fists and exclaim 'You just got fisted!"


That's down to context and your read on your social situation. If you did it, someone genuinely asked you to stop, and you kept doing it, that'd be douchey.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:44:40


Post by: Crimson


 skchsan wrote:

Notions such as 'girly girl' are ideas and ideals we conjured up as a patriarchal society. We as society told women what they can be and what they can't be, and if you think adding boobs, making waist more slender, give more pretty faces to PLASTIC FIGURINES as a means of reparation or attracting more female players, you're just straight up buying into that old notion that really needs to be thrown out.

Your post was a bit weird, but actually I somewhat agree. I don't want GIRL MARINES, I want marines that happen to be women. Official recognition that this is canonically possible, and perhaps some femaleish looking bare heads is all I want. Model-wise the recent Cadian upgrade sprue is a perfect example of what to do. You can just have 'Space Marine Heroes Upgrade Sprue' it can have a bunch of characterful heads, some that look a bit more feminine, and perhaps add some fancy weapons you can use to represent various relics while you're at it. It doesn't need to be an explicit 'female marine conversion sprue.'


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:44:51


Post by: vipoid


 Crimson wrote:

I used to think that this was enough, but now I just want GW to make it official. The reason is the bizarre amount of hostility topic receives. Like I literally cannot post that I posted in this thread into one of the biggest marine groups on FB, because it would get swarmed by hate and then mods would delete it. Having GW to say, 'yeah, you can canonically do that' would help.


Would it be reasonable, then, to say that this is more a lore issue than a model one?

As in, the central point is that you want GW to validate the existence of SMs for those who want to use them? So that they're not inherently heretical (like Furry Marines, which I've also seen ).


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:53:45


Post by: A.T.


Vatsetis wrote:
The flagship faction of psicoindoctrinated supersoldiers at the service of a dogmatic theocracy should be able to represent anyone and therefore be mixed gender.
Why can't a toy line of all-male supersoldiers represent a female player?
I myself have played sisters for years, am I doing it wrong?

Players wanting female marine models I get, but gendering armies seems somehow... backwards as a solution to anything. These are toys not role models.


 vipoid wrote:
So that they're not inherently heretical (like Furry Marines, which I've also seen ).
And the dreaded Hello Kitty marines


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:54:03


Post by: CEO Kasen


 vipoid wrote:


As in, the central point is that you want GW to validate the existence of SMs for those who want to use them? So that they're not inherently heretical (like Furry Marines, which I've also seen ).


I made Furry Marines, I just made them as worshippers of Slaanesh, which felt like a more natural fit.

Watch out for the Sub Woofers; their bark is catastrophically worse than their bite.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:57:46


Post by: skchsan


A.T. wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
The flagship faction of psicoindoctrinated supersoldiers at the service of a dogmatic theocracy should be able to represent anyone and therefore be mixed gender.
Why can't a toy line of all-male supersoldiers represent a female player?
I myself have played sisters for years, am I doing it wrong?

Players wanting female marine models I get, but gendering armies seems somehow... backwards as a solution to anything. These are toys not role models.
Gender != Sex.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 21:59:18


Post by: Sledgehammer


I think a lot of people here advocating for female space marines are also not thinking about the reaction that their inclusion would lead to. Even if the criticism is lore based, those outside of the hobby would see the articles and immediately be turned off by the hobby.

Representation is important, but you do that by building on what you have, not by destroying the themes and lore you have already established.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:01:50


Post by: CEO Kasen


 Sledgehammer wrote:
I think a lot of people here advocating for female space marines are also not thinking about the reaction that their inclusion would lead to. Even if the criticism is lore based, those outside of the hobby would see the articles and immediately be turned off by the hobby.

Representation is important, but you do that by building on what you have, not by destroying it.


Really? Sure, some people would get mad and storm off - but if they haven't stormed off already based on every unequivocally boneheaded and greedy thing GW has done over the last two decades, I don't think a different haircut and some facial features on some Marines is going to be the final straw, and ultimately it'd draw in more people to replace those who decided to make FSM their bizarre line in the sand.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:02:46


Post by: A.T.


 skchsan wrote:
Gender != Sex.
True, nothing in the lore states that marines can't be female gendered.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:04:48


Post by: Crimson


 Sledgehammer wrote:
I think a lot of people here advocating for female space marines are also not thinking about the reaction that their inclusion would lead to. Even if the criticism is lore based, those outside of the hobby would see the articles and immediately be turned off by the hobby.

Why would you think that inclusion of female space marines would deter those currently outside the hobby entering it? I mean if they heard that people already in the hobby had a fit about it, then that might...


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:09:02


Post by: Cybtroll


The litmus test here is very easy: do you speak up to defend people when they are harassed online when they publish female space marine model?

If no: that's all justification needed for the change already here, it's a remedy for your cowardice.
"Everyone can do whatever they want" make sense if people really can. Until converting a female marine is perceived as fine, advocating that things are already fine is more hypocritical than Vatsetsis speaking for those who have opposite ideas.

Being more inclusive is a welcome by-product. The main goal is to reduce problems caused by donkey-caves that pretend to tell other how to play with their toys, to make the lore more believable, add some interesting narrative, give Primaris at least a reason to exist AND LET THOSE WHO WANT TO KEEP THEIR MARINE MALE ONLY TO DO SO.

You can have A and B, but you rather keep only A because something may be ruined. You should have been those caveman shocked and disgusted when the first steak was thrown on a fire rather than eaten raw.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:11:09


Post by: CEO Kasen


 Crimson wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
I think a lot of people here advocating for female space marines are also not thinking about the reaction that their inclusion would lead to. Even if the criticism is lore based, those outside of the hobby would see the articles and immediately be turned off by the hobby.

Why would you think that inclusion of female space marines would deter those currently outside the hobby entering it? I mean if they heard that people already in the hobby had a fit about it, then that might...


Hell, it might get more. If I heard about a new game due to a bunch of people throwing a fit because they changed a longrunning faction to be more inclusive? I'd check out that game in a heartbeat.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:12:18


Post by: jeff white


Fat fingers punched the wrong result. Poll is broken. Results no longer reliable. My vote is for do not add.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:13:39


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 CEO Kasen wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
I think a lot of people here advocating for female space marines are also not thinking about the reaction that their inclusion would lead to. Even if the criticism is lore based, those outside of the hobby would see the articles and immediately be turned off by the hobby.

Why would you think that inclusion of female space marines would deter those currently outside the hobby entering it? I mean if they heard that people already in the hobby had a fit about it, then that might...


Hell, it might get more. If I heard about a new game due to a bunch of people throwing a fit because they changed a longrunning faction to be more inclusive? I'd check out that game in a heartbeat.

And then you'll see the price and immediately forget about it
If GW truly wanted more people in the hobby, they should start with the price.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:19:22


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Crimson wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
I think a lot of people here advocating for female space marines are also not thinking about the reaction that their inclusion would lead to. Even if the criticism is lore based, those outside of the hobby would see the articles and immediately be turned off by the hobby.

Why would you think that inclusion of female space marines would deter those currently outside the hobby entering it? I mean if they heard that people already in the hobby had a fit about it, then that might...
The ensuing, eventual, drama and articles being written.


If you're looking to increase representation within 40k and bring in new members shoehorning female space marines is the least elegant way of doing so.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:19:31


Post by: Crimson


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

If GW truly wanted more people in the hobby, they should start with the price.

Yes, but let's try to keep our expectations reasonable!


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:21:17


Post by: Tiberias


 Cybtroll wrote:
The litmus test here is very easy: do you speak up to defend people when they are harassed online when they publish female space marine model?

If no: that's all justification needed for the change already here, it's a remedy for your cowardice.
"Everyone can do whatever they want" make sense if people really can. Until converting a female marine is perceived as fine, advocating that things are already fine is more hypocritical than Vatsetsis speaking for those who have opposite ideas.

Being more inclusive is a welcome by-product. The main goal is to reduce problems caused by donkey-caves that pretend to tell other how to play with their toys, to make the lore more believable, add some interesting narrative, give Primaris at least a reason to exist AND LET THOSE WHO WANT TO KEEP THEIR MARINE MALE ONLY TO DO SO.

You can have A and B, but you rather keep only A because something may be ruined. You should have been those caveman shocked and disgusted when the first steak was thrown on a fire rather than eaten raw.


What? I don't understand what you are getting at. Who ever said that converting a female space marine is not fine? Nobody cares what you personally do with the models you bought for yourself.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:21:53


Post by: CEO Kasen


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 CEO Kasen wrote:

Hell, it might get more. If I heard about a new game due to a bunch of people throwing a fit because they changed a longrunning faction to be more inclusive? I'd check out that game in a heartbeat.

And then you'll see the price and immediately forget about it
If GW truly wanted more people in the hobby, they should start with the price.


Absolutely and without question a totally accurate statement I think we can all agree on, but that's a different discussion.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:27:03


Post by: skchsan


 Cybtroll wrote:
The litmus test here is very easy: do you speak up to defend people when they are harassed online when they publish female space marine model?

If no: that's all justification needed for the change already here, it's a remedy for your cowardice.
"Everyone can do whatever they want" make sense if people really can. Until converting a female marine is perceived as fine, advocating that things are already fine is more hypocritical than Vatsetsis speaking for those who have opposite ideas.

Being more inclusive is a welcome by-product. The main goal is to reduce problems caused by donkey-caves that pretend to tell other how to play with their toys, to make the lore more believable, add some interesting narrative, give Primaris at least a reason to exist AND LET THOSE WHO WANT TO KEEP THEIR MARINE MALE ONLY TO DO SO.

You can have A and B, but you rather keep only A because something may be ruined. You should have been those caveman shocked and disgusted when the first steak was thrown on a fire rather than eaten raw.
The problem is that all the "solutions" presented here are how MEN PERCEIVE WOMEN, or how men would like women to be depicted to their preferences.

Here's a real, cold, hard, mean fact - large portion of American nationals participating in here are probably beer bellied, unkempt, and furthest away from what would be perceived as 'optimal male figure.'

Men come in all sizes and shapes, just as women come in all sizes and shapes. Not all women come with the facial shape you consider 'feminine'.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:30:08


Post by: Crimson


 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
I think a lot of people here advocating for female space marines are also not thinking about the reaction that their inclusion would lead to. Even if the criticism is lore based, those outside of the hobby would see the articles and immediately be turned off by the hobby.

Why would you think that inclusion of female space marines would deter those currently outside the hobby entering it? I mean if they heard that people already in the hobby had a fit about it, then that might...
The ensuing, eventual, drama and articles being written.

So is your argument that they cannot add female space marines as that would lead to bigots throwing a fit, which would learn the general populace learning that non-insignificant section of 40K players are bigots, thus disinclining them to start playing 40K as they don't want to associate with such bigots?

That certainly makes certain sort of terrible sense, but I don't think it works that way in reality. Attempts to make things more inclusive are generally seen positively, even though vocal minority would oppose them.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:33:06


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Crimson wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
I think a lot of people here advocating for female space marines are also not thinking about the reaction that their inclusion would lead to. Even if the criticism is lore based, those outside of the hobby would see the articles and immediately be turned off by the hobby.

Why would you think that inclusion of female space marines would deter those currently outside the hobby entering it? I mean if they heard that people already in the hobby had a fit about it, then that might...
The ensuing, eventual, drama and articles being written.

So is your argument that they cannot add female space marines as that would lead to bigots throwing a fit, which would learn the general populace learning that non-insignificant section of 40K players are bigots, thus disinclining them to start playing 40K as they don't want to associate with such bigots?

That certainly makes certain sort of terrible sense, but I don't think it works that way in reality. Attempts to make things more inclusive are generally seen positively, even though vocal minority would oppose them.
It is an argument against inelegant implementation of the specific goal of increasing representation, and how the general public outside of the bubble would react to it.

If 40k needs more representation is does not have to be through space marines.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:38:30


Post by: alextroy


Ignoring the issue of if there should be female space marines, I think the obvious way to include them is with feminine heads. The space marine power armor is asexual. It only conforms to the human body in the most basic sense of head, limbs, and torsos. Even the slimmer Phobos armor so completely covers the human form that you'd never be able to tell if the gene-wrought warrior inside was male or female, assuming the effects of the conversion process left very much difference between a male and female space marine. It's not like the process of turning a human into a transhuman warrior requires keeping male or female reproductive organs.

Therefore, all you need to differentiate them is heads for helmet-less models that are obviously female while also obviously space marines.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 22:50:52


Post by: CEO Kasen


 Sledgehammer wrote:
It is an argument against inelegant implementation of the specific goal of increasing representation,


Ah, see, now this is one of the more understandable reasons people might be leery of the concept without necessarily being bigoted - Assuming GW will feth it up and either make them into bikini models or make a cringey "GRRRL POWER" thing out of it or something. Now, I don't precisely agree with this; I don't think it's likely that they'll screw it up that catastrophically, and I don't think that it's reasonable to evaluate all possible changes to the hobby or its setting based on their worst possible implementation, but I get it; you've probably sat through some uncomfortable gak based on clumsy efforts in this regard, and GW could always GW. To me that's not a good enough reason not to push for it, but I get it.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 23:00:20


Post by: Strg Alt


TinyLegions wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
I certainly never implied that bigots and bullies were any sort of majority. Though they definitely do exist in larger numbers than I would prefer. But yeah, most of the people in the hobby are perfectly nice.


Do you have any documentation on this? By the way, am I being bigoted or am I bullying if I table an opponent with my Crimson Fists and exclaim 'You just got fisted!"


Hilarious!


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 23:05:04


Post by: Keramory


Whoops double post


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 23:07:54


Post by: psipso


I would eave them the same. At the end of the creation process, all the SM has the same aspect regardless of the kind of human being that they were before.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 23:10:54


Post by: Keramory


TinyLegions wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
I certainly never implied that bigots and bullies were any sort of majority. Though they definitely do exist in larger numbers than I would prefer. But yeah, most of the people in the hobby are perfectly nice.


Do you have any documentation on this? By the way, am I being bigoted or am I bullying if I table an opponent with my Crimson Fists and exclaim 'You just got fisted!"


I've seen plenty of it happen to my wife first hand in various locations. While most people are very kind, the routine edge lord does slither into the shops often enough and pipes up something mighty stupid. Especially if they don't know I'm with her because I'm at a nearby table. If my experience just witnessing it is somewhere around the expected norm, I'd argue it's a real enough annoyance.

In regards to the whole female space marines topic, I chalk it up to online problems that have no baring in the real world. I'm all for inclusion or what have you but clearly no one is even asking the (cis) girls actually interested or involved in the hobby what they think. Almost none of them want female marines because they find loyalists boring. Always xenos or chaos. Heck most girls I know in the hobby are already annoyed with the new sisters aesthetics looking "manlier" then before. And people think they want even more of that? Nah.

 Cybtroll wrote:


Being more inclusive is a welcome by-product..


I would agree if companies of late haven't had an overwheling tendency to blow it out of proportions. I think there's a healthy balance to this but heck if any of my hobbies (mtg, dc) can manage implementing it properly without sacrificing integral parts of their product. I'd say the last few years have made me jaded and skeptical of the word "inclusive" unforutently.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 23:16:43


Post by: CEO Kasen


Also, I just want to thank very nearly all of you on either side for remaining quite civil on this topic - This is actually pretty enjoyable so far.

Maybe it's because I have a better grasp of the topic than the last time around, but I'm quite liking these threads and generally how they're turning out. Makes me hopeful that it won't just be a taboo firestarter topic that nothing ever gets done about because no one can ever discuss it on neutral ground.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 23:36:31


Post by: BrianDavion


look all those claiming that "we need the poster boys to have gender rep!" are honestly missing GW's solution..




This is GW's approuch, rather then retconning 30 years of lore and pissing off fans who actually like the lore. They're bringing sisters up to a similer level. and basicly presenting them as damn near co-equals. in that video both have moments of bad ass, and the marine saves the sister and the sister saves the Marines (TBH IMHO the sister comes off as more of a complete bad ass in that video.)


As for why not female space marines, the lore has space marines as brotherhoods, bringing women into it would reduce that, and space marines would lose something in the process. (much like sisters of battle would lose something if they where turned into a mixed gender army) I'd rather have GW show representation by expanded focus, way I see it, if they turn sisters of battle into co-equal poster boys to Marines, it's a win for everyone.
especially sisters fans who suddenly are gonna start seeing a lot more love thrown their way.
Now I admit as someone with a sisters army my view that way is proably a little biased

but yeah, I find the idea that the majority of 40k fans are a buncha guys who are all "eww girl cooties" to be questionable. when GW put out a survey an overwhelming majority of the community ASKED FOR SISTERS OF BATTLE.
GW assumed no one was intreasted in sisters, it turned out they where wrong and there was overwhelming demand for them. and sisters are now reportedly one of GW's top selling model lines for 40k


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 23:39:45


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


BrianDavion wrote:
look all those claiming that "we need the poster boys to have gender rep!" are honestly missing GW's solution..




This is GW's approuch, rather then retconning 30 years of lore and pissing off fans who actually like the lore. They're bringing sisters up to a similer level. and basicly presenting them as damn near co-equals. in that video both have moments of bad ass, and the marine saves the sister and the sister saves the Marines (TBH IMHO the sister comes off as more of a complete bad ass in that video.)



Yeah, GW did it right here.
The solution isn't and shouldn't be "more marines", it should be "let the other factions shine for once."
Sisters of Battle and the Imperial Guard (of which we briefly saw a female member of in the trailer) should get more of the spotlight, not marines once again.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 23:45:40


Post by: Sledgehammer


BrianDavion wrote:
look all those claiming that "we need the poster boys to have gender rep!" are honestly missing GW's solution..




This is GW's approuch, rather then retconning 30 years of lore and pissing off fans who actually like the lore. They're bringing sisters up to a similer level. and basicly presenting them as damn near co-equals. in that video both have moments of bad ass, and the marine saves the sister and the sister saves the Marines (TBH IMHO the sister comes off as more of a complete bad ass in that video.)


As for why not female space marines, the lore has space marines as brotherhoods, bringing women into it would reduce that, and space marines would lose something in the process. (much like sisters of battle would lose something if they where turned into a mixed gender army) I'd rather have GW show representation by expanded focus, way I see it, if they turn sisters of battle into co-equal poster boys to Marines, it's a win for everyone.
especially sisters fans who suddenly are gonna start seeing a lot more love thrown their way.
Now I admit as someone with a sisters army my view that way is proably a little biased

but yeah, I find the idea that the majority of 40k fans are a buncha guys who are all "eww girl cooties" to be questionable. when GW put out a survey an overwhelming majority of the community ASKED FOR SISTERS OF BATTLE.
GW assumed no one was intreasted in sisters, it turned out they where wrong and there was overwhelming demand for them. and sisters are now reportedly one of GW's top selling model lines for 40k
EXACTLY


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/13 23:52:44


Post by: CEO Kasen


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, GW did it right here.
The solution isn't and shouldn't be "more marines", it should be "let the other factions shine for once."
Sisters of Battle and the Imperial Guard (of which we briefly saw a female member of in the trailer) should get more of the spotlight, not marines once again.


That'd be good, don't get me wrong that this'd all be positive - but again, FSM and Sororitas aren't quite the same thing (Superman vs Batman) and frankly, based on the last 20 years of the game (and what they did more recently with Age of Sigmar) I genuinely see FSM happening well before Marines take a permanent back burner on GW's shelves.

And again, it can wait a bit. We've had a pile of Marine releases, so sure, that knob needs to cool down for a while. Years, even. I'd love a quick lore amendment in advance since that'd be easy enough without taking significant effort away from other factions, but the models don't have to come right away.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 00:12:20


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Crimson wrote:
I did this recently. Statuesque Techno Roider head. I think it looks good.



I don't need female marines to look any more feminine than this.
Ah, I'd literally just seen her on my feed just a minute ago! Very well done, and I agree, the Statuesque heads are perfect for my own Primaris. That's all I'd want from GW on this - literally just something like those heads, in plastic.

If we can get visibly different male features, then we can get more feminine ones too.

Tiberias wrote:Ok, but what's wrong with us basement dwelling guys having a male faction just for us?
I mean, you can have the Custodes if a faction needing to be all male is so critical? Or you can just have your own Space Marines be all male. I can't dictate how you enjoy your hobby, if you want only dudes in your army, you go for it! No-one's stopping you.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 00:13:40


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Crimson wrote:
I did this recently. Statuesque Techno Roider head. I think it looks good.



I don't need female marines to look any more feminine than this.
Ah, I'd literally just seen her on my feed just a minute ago! Very well done, and I agree, the Statuesque heads are perfect for my own Primaris. That's all I'd want from GW on this - literally just something like those heads, in plastic.

If we can get visibly different male features, then we can get more feminine ones too.

Tiberias wrote:Ok, but what's wrong with us basement dwelling guys having a male faction just for us?
I mean, you can have the Custodes if a faction needing to be all male is so critical? Or you can just have your own Space Marines be all male. I can't dictate how you enjoy your hobby, if you want only dudes in your army, you go for it! No-one's stopping you.
You absolutely are dictating how people engage with the hobby and the lore by advocating to change it to fit your preferences. This proposed change does not exist within a bubble and actively changes how people engage with their armies. If it didn't you wouldn't be advocating for it officially and would be content with custom kitbashes.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 00:29:12


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Sledgehammer wrote:You absolutely are dictating how people engage with the hobby and the lore by advocating to change it to fit your preferences.
And that advocating it to stay the same isn't also "dictating how people engage with the hobby"?

If simply advocating for things is "dictation", then this dictation applies both ways.
If it didn't you wouldn't be advocating for it officially and would be content with custom kitbashes.
Unfortunately, as I'm sure other people have addressed, some people do like "dictating how people engage with the hobby" - such as unfairly harassing and targeting people who do make those lovely custom kitbashes.

Why should people be content with being insulted and excluded because they put a different plastic head on their war doll?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 00:33:41


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:You absolutely are dictating how people engage with the hobby and the lore by advocating to change it to fit your preferences.
And that advocating it to stay the same isn't also "dictating how people engage with the hobby"?

If simply advocating for things is "dictation", then this dictation applies both ways.
If it didn't you wouldn't be advocating for it officially and would be content with custom kitbashes.
Unfortunately, as I'm sure other people have addressed, some people do like "dictating how people engage with the hobby" - such as unfairly harassing and targeting people who do make those lovely custom kitbashes.

Why should people be content with being insulted and excluded because they put a different plastic head on their war doll?
Kitbashes are fine. Advocating for the changing of 30 years of lore that has impact on how others interact with it is absolutely a dictation. You can make whatever you want, but trying to change the basic lore of the game does affect people negatively.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 00:36:36


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Sledgehammer wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:You absolutely are dictating how people engage with the hobby and the lore by advocating to change it to fit your preferences.
And that advocating it to stay the same isn't also "dictating how people engage with the hobby"?

If simply advocating for things is "dictation", then this dictation applies both ways.
If it didn't you wouldn't be advocating for it officially and would be content with custom kitbashes.
Unfortunately, as I'm sure other people have addressed, some people do like "dictating how people engage with the hobby" - such as unfairly harassing and targeting people who do make those lovely custom kitbashes.

Why should people be content with being insulted and excluded because they put a different plastic head on their war doll?
Kitbashes are fine.
Except for some people, they're not.

Did you not see when Crimson said they didn't post their lovely model on certain sites for fear of it being dogpiled?
Advocating for the changing of 30 years of lore that has impact how others interact with it is absolutely a dictation.
Impact on how others interact with it? Could you elaborate please? If the lore changes to allow women Astartes, why does that stop you from having your own all-male army?

Can't you just enjoy your own army without worrying about what the person next to you is making?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 00:39:03


Post by: CEO Kasen


 Sledgehammer wrote:
Kitbashes are fine. Advocating for the changing of 30 years of lore that has impact how others interact with it is absolutely a dictation. You can make whatever you want, but trying to change the basic lore of the game does affect people negatively.


But you don't have to have female marines yourself. We're not asking you to replace heads and pronouns in Your Dudes. In fact, it makes the choice meaningful if you are in fact using a more historical/medieval/traditionalistic slant for your Chapter, or, alternately, are doing a Pride thing. But the lore as it seems to stand is telling us that we cannot make that choice.

"You can't have your Dudettes" is more dictating than "You have the option of making your Dudes either Dudes or Dudettes."

We're just asking for some people to have it allowed for Their Dudes to be Their Dudettes, and I just can't see why that's in any way wrong to allow.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 00:44:30


Post by: Sledgehammer


 CEO Kasen wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Kitbashes are fine. Advocating for the changing of 30 years of lore that has impact how others interact with it is absolutely a dictation. You can make whatever you want, but trying to change the basic lore of the game does affect people negatively.


But you don't have to have female marines yourself. We're not asking you to replace heads and pronouns in Your Dudes. In fact, it makes the choice meaningful if you are in fact using a more historical/medieval/traditionalistic slant for your Chapter, or, alternately, are doing a Pride thing. But the lore as it seems to stand is telling us that we cannot make that choice.

"You can't have your Dudettes" is more dictating than "You have the option of making your Dudes either Dudes or Dudettes."

We're just asking for some people to have it allowed for Their Dudes to be Their Dudettes, and I just can't see why that's in any way wrong to allow.
The lore at its core absolutely changes the way you interact with the game and your army as a whole even if you try to build around it. For instance I made a veteran guard force that was intended to a light infantry regiment supported by aircraft, and light vehicles intended for long rang reconnaissance. They were designed to advance with small arms and take out enemy infantry, then get support where needed via rapid response vehicles. Everyone thinks, and jokes that guard are just meant to be meat fodder and die. Trying to run a guard regiment like that has led me to stop playing the game. The official lore absolutely creates a picture of what your force should be overall and informs how others interact with it.

And no, 40k isn't history, but it has it's own history and themes. When those themes and that history have not and do not currently support something I'm going to argue against it because it does not fit.

Internal consistency forms the mechanics which allow us to suspend disbelief. There are orks with jet pack and stuff really isn't an argument.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 00:49:24


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Sledgehammer wrote:The lore at its core absolutely changes the way you interact with the game and your army as a whole even if you try to build around it.
Again, how would having women Space Marines change how Space Marines play for you? How would having the option of a female-presenting head affect what you do with your presumably male-presenting Astartes?
And no, 40k isn't history, but it has it's own history and themes. When those themes and that history have not and do not current support something I'm going to argue against it because it does not fit.
But 40k's history and themes *do* change. Arguing against change is pointless when I don't know why things need to stay the same.

Change happens - Primaris and Guilliman are evidence of that. I'm just asking why this shouldn't also.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 00:50:02


Post by: CEO Kasen


 Sledgehammer wrote:
The lore at its core absolutely changes the way you interact with the game and your army as a whole even if you try to build around it. For instance I made a veteran guard force that was intended to a light infantry regiment supported by aircraft, and light vehicles intended for long rang reconnaissance. They were designed to advance with small arms and take out enemy infantry, then get support where needed via rapid response vehicles. Everyone thinks, and jokes that guard are just meant to be meat fodder and die. Trying to run a guard regiment like that has led me to stop playing the game. The official lore absolutely creates a picture of what your force should be overall and informs how others interact with it.

And no, 40k isn't history, but it has it's own history and themes. When those themes and that history have not and do not current support something I'm going to argue against it because it does not fit.


I'm not sure I fully understand this argument; It sounds to me like restrictive views of what constitutes the Lore diminished your enjoyment of the game. Surely it would've been better if you had the option between using well-trained well-equipped strike forces of Guard and using human wave tactics than if you didn't?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 00:51:46


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


CEO Kasen wrote:Surely it would've been better if you had the option between using well-trained well-equipped strike forces of Guard and using human wave tactics than if you didn't?
More choice = more good, agreed.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 00:57:44


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:The lore at its core absolutely changes the way you interact with the game and your army as a whole even if you try to build around it.
Again, how would having women Space Marines change how Space Marines play for you? How would having the option of a female-presenting head affect what you do with your presumably male-presenting Astartes?
And no, 40k isn't history, but it has it's own history and themes. When those themes and that history have not and do not current support something I'm going to argue against it because it does not fit.
But 40k's history and themes *do* change. Arguing against change is pointless when I don't know why things need to stay the same.

Change happens - Primaris and Guilliman are evidence of that. I'm just asking why this shouldn't also.
I'm arguing against a specific lore change that goes against 30 years of established canon and thematic story telling that also happens to change how one views and interacts with their own army; potentially for the worse depending on the individual. It's not necessary for inclusiveness, we have enough marines as is, and you have every option to kit bash your own army.

and more choice is more good, so long as it does not fundamentally change how one interacts with the setting or its themes. 40k is all about crusades, the decay of an empire, decadence, hubris and the death of progress. I was and still am against the lore of the primaris.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 01:00:57


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:The lore at its core absolutely changes the way you interact with the game and your army as a whole even if you try to build around it.
Again, how would having women Space Marines change how Space Marines play for you? How would having the option of a female-presenting head affect what you do with your presumably male-presenting Astartes?
I'm arguing against a specific lore change that goes against 30 years of established canon and thematic story telling that also happens to change how one views and interacts with their own army
I've already asked just above, but can you elaborate on this specifically? Why does having the option for women Astartes change how you interact with your own models?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
40k is all about crusades, the decay of an empire, decadence, hubris and the death of progress. I was and still am against the lore of the primaris.
But that's the thing - you're rejecting the modern lore, despite it all being "canon". Clearly, the lore isn't infallible.

You say "the setting and it's themes", but the Primaris don't apparently fit that for you - and yet, they're part of the setting. Maybe the "themes" of the setting aren't quite as set-in-stone.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 01:03:16


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:The lore at its core absolutely changes the way you interact with the game and your army as a whole even if you try to build around it.
Again, how would having women Space Marines change how Space Marines play for you? How would having the option of a female-presenting head affect what you do with your presumably male-presenting Astartes?
I'm arguing against a specific lore change that goes against 30 years of established canon and thematic story telling that also happens to change how one views and interacts with their own army
I've already asked just above, but can you elaborate on this specifically? Why does having the option for women Astartes change how you interact with your own models?
Theme and established canon are fundamental to ones view of his or own faction. It establishes how you and your army fit into the greater universe as a whole and how you will react to what is going on in it.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 01:05:00


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
I'm arguing against a specific lore change that goes against 30 years of established canon and thematic story telling that also happens to change how one views and interacts with their own army
I've already asked just above, but can you elaborate on this specifically? Why does having the option for women Astartes change how you interact with your own models?
Theme and established canon are fundamental to ones view of his or own faction. It establishes how you and your army fit into the greater universe as a whole and how you will react to what is going on in it.
Right, but that's still not answering my question.

You make mention of "interacts" with their own faction and models. Can you elaborate on this?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 01:06:46


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
I'm arguing against a specific lore change that goes against 30 years of established canon and thematic story telling that also happens to change how one views and interacts with their own army
I've already asked just above, but can you elaborate on this specifically? Why does having the option for women Astartes change how you interact with your own models?
Theme and established canon are fundamental to ones view of his or own faction. It establishes how you and your army fit into the greater universe as a whole and how you will react to what is going on in it.
Right, but that's still not answering my question.

You make mention of "interacts" with their own faction and models. Can you elaborate on this?

What if I was an ultramarines player that loved all the battle brothers memes and banter, and culture of the chapter, and then GW added females to the chapter? It would kill that players perception of their faction, the banter that they use, and the way they talk about it.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 01:11:25


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Sledgehammer wrote:
What if I was an ultramarines player that loved all the battle brothers memes and banter, and culture of the chapter, and then GW added females to the chapter? It would kill that players perception of their faction.
You can still have that in your own army though. You don't need to have any women in your own force, if you still want that "battle brothers banter". To put it another way, I like my Ultramarines with boots on the ground infantry, and support from tracked tanks. The existence of Space Marines bikers doesn't kill my perception of my own army.
As I've said, why does the option for something else prevent you from enjoying what you already have, and what no-one else can dictate to you?
The only thing asking to be changed is something that we must all share - not what you already have. Your own stuff is yours. I encourage you to enjoy what brings you joy. But perhaps just let the rest of us find some of that joy as well.

You mention the culture of the Chapter, but as an Ultramarines player, I've never gotten a particularly strong necessity for the Ultramarines in particular being all men. If anything, I imagine them to be one of the most flexible.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 01:15:41


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
What if I was an ultramarines player that loved all the battle brothers memes and banter, and culture of the chapter, and then GW added females to the chapter? It would kill that players perception of their faction.
You can still have that in your own army though. You don't need to have any women in your own force, if you still want that "battle brothers banter".
As I've said, why does the option for something else prevent you from enjoying what you already have, and what no-one else can dictate to you?
The only thing asking to be changed is something that we must all share - not what you already have. Your own stuff is yours. I encourage you to enjoy what brings you joy. But perhaps just let the rest of us find some of that joy as well.

You mention the culture of the Chapter, but as an Ultramarines player, I've never gotten a particularly strong necessity for the Ultramarines in particular being all men. If anything, I imagine them to be one of the most flexible.
The point is that official lore changes inform how people view, and interact with their army, because duh. If you advocate for official lore changes, you're also advocating for potentially negatively changing how people view their own faction. This suggestion is absolutely not benign. It affects everyone.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 01:17:52


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Sledgehammer wrote:
The point is that offical lore changes and informs how people view, and interact with their army, because duh. If you advocate for official lore changes, you're also advocating for potentially negatively changing how people view their own faction. This suggestion is absolutely not benign. It affects everyone.
And why does the possibility of including women negatively affect people?

Again, you come back to this "interacts with their army", but the existence of units I didn't like never stopped me interacting with my armies. I just... didn't include the bits I didn't like. There's nothing wrong with doing that here too.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 01:27:00


Post by: BrianDavion


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
look all those claiming that "we need the poster boys to have gender rep!" are honestly missing GW's solution..




This is GW's approuch, rather then retconning 30 years of lore and pissing off fans who actually like the lore. They're bringing sisters up to a similer level. and basicly presenting them as damn near co-equals. in that video both have moments of bad ass, and the marine saves the sister and the sister saves the Marines (TBH IMHO the sister comes off as more of a complete bad ass in that video.)



Yeah, GW did it right here.
The solution isn't and shouldn't be "more marines", it should be "let the other factions shine for once."
Sisters of Battle and the Imperial Guard (of which we briefly saw a female member of in the trailer) should get more of the spotlight, not marines once again.


and we're seeing it in releases too. since 9th edition launched we've gotten 4 boxed sets (I'm gonna include kill team because even if it's not strictly speaking 40k, it's 40k models and can be used to examine thinking)

the first was indomatus and the starter sets (I'm lumping them together since they're all "variations on a theme") then we got piety and pain, we've got the upcoming Ork box, and kill team, which impressivly for a 40k based game doesn't have marines in it's starter set.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 01:29:02


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
The point is that offical lore changes and informs how people view, and interact with their army, because duh. If you advocate for official lore changes, you're also advocating for potentially negatively changing how people view their own faction. This suggestion is absolutely not benign. It affects everyone.
And why does the possibility of including women negatively affect people?

Again, you come back to this "interacts with their army", but the existence of units I didn't like never stopped me interacting with my armies. I just... didn't include the bits I didn't like. There's nothing wrong with doing that here too.
It affects the identity of Space Marines, and individual chapters as a whole, where they function in universe, and how they interact both within the chapter and outside of it. Gone would be the days of battle brothers, monastic themes, and space crusaders.

Asking people to ignore it and just make only male armies is failing to understand the fundamental problem. Your army isn't real or canon anymore and doesn't exist in the universe. Your space marines are no longer what you thought they were. Your faction is dead, and all your time and money gone into investing in it is as well. Alienating an established fan / player base is not the way to go. Elevating others is the best way to get more people involved. This is not the way to do it.

Sure your kitbashed FSM aren't canon either, but they also aren't shattering the themes and lore that has existed (and been invested into) for 30 years. You knew what you were getting into.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 01:29:16


Post by: BrianDavion


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
The point is that offical lore changes and informs how people view, and interact with their army, because duh. If you advocate for official lore changes, you're also advocating for potentially negatively changing how people view their own faction. This suggestion is absolutely not benign. It affects everyone.
And why does the possibility of including women negatively affect people?

Again, you come back to this "interacts with their army", but the existence of units I didn't like never stopped me interacting with my armies. I just... didn't include the bits I didn't like. There's nothing wrong with doing that here too.


because it would require a massive retcon of the lore?

some people don't like retcons. especially retcons made simply to push a political agenda.

a big part of the identity of space marines is they are fraternal brotherhoods, with all the pros and cons that come of it.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 01:45:11


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Sledgehammer wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
The point is that offical lore changes and informs how people view, and interact with their army, because duh. If you advocate for official lore changes, you're also advocating for potentially negatively changing how people view their own faction. This suggestion is absolutely not benign. It affects everyone.
And why does the possibility of including women negatively affect people?

Again, you come back to this "interacts with their army", but the existence of units I didn't like never stopped me interacting with my armies. I just... didn't include the bits I didn't like. There's nothing wrong with doing that here too.
It affects the identity of Space Marines, and individual chapters as a whole, where they function in universe, and how they interact both within the chapter and outside of it. Gone would be the days of battle brothers, monastic themes, and space crusaders.
That's not what I'm asking or referring to. You said about people interacting with their own armies - could you expand on that? If there were things in the lore about my faction that I wasn't keen on, I just didn't interact with it. I don't like Space Marine bikes - they've just never appealed to me - so I just don't include them.

And no, the days of "battle brothers, monastic themes and space crusaders" aren't gone at all.
You want Battle Brothers? Just don't take any women in your army.
You want monastic themes? Good news! Not all monastic orders are all male!
You want Space Crusaders? I don't see why you can't have women crusaders, if you're going to have all those tanks and aircraft that the real world crusaders didn't have.

Asking people to ignore it and just make only male armies is failing to understand the fundamental problem. Your army isn't real or canon anymore and doesn't exist in the universe.
Uh, yes it does. Or, rather, no less than it already did/didn't. Unless you collect the entire Chapter, down to the last accurate armour piece, named model, and exact wargear inventory at the most modern point in 40k lore, no-one's army is entirely representative of anything in 40k.

It's just a sandbox for you to do what you want with your own models. If you have an all male Space Marine force, who cares if apparently women are a thing now? I have an Ultramarine army with no bikes in, does that mean that it's not "real" because I didn't include any?
Your space marines are no longer what you thought they were.
No, *your* Space Marines can be whatever you want them to be. *My* Space Marines can now also be what I want them to be.

Having the option of women doesn't take away your choice not to have them.
Your faction is dead, and all your time and money gone into investing in it is as well.
Please, the hyperbole isn't helping.

Including the option for women doesn't invalidate your own collection. You aren't defined by what options other people have.
Sure your kitbashed FSM aren't canon either, but they also aren't shattering the themes and lore that has existed (and been invested into) for 30 years. You knew what you were getting into.
I've emphasised this point because you touch on exactly why women Astartes are important - because there's people looking in at 40k, and seeing that women aren't welcomed in, in favour of lore.

Again, I don't want to get further into why the "themes" and "lore" you describe aren't worth the paper they're printed on, but you can go read my arguments on it in the locked thread. Suffice to say, I don't put faith in the sanctity of the lore, for such reasons as Primaris.

BrianDavion wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And why does the possibility of including women negatively affect people?


because it would require a massive retcon of the lore?
Would it? It's smaller than adding all the stuff we have with Primaris

a big part of the identity of space marines is they are fraternal brotherhoods, with all the pros and cons that come of it.
A big part of their identity is also their player customisation.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 02:04:16


Post by: Catulle


 Sledgehammer wrote:
Sure your kitbashed FSM aren't canon either, but they also aren't shattering the themes and lore that has existed (and been invested into) for 30 years. You knew what you were getting into.


The themes and background aren't so fragile as you suggest, what with the literal (heh) millions of words spilled on keeping them ever-changing over the past 35 years.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 02:11:31


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
The point is that offical lore changes and informs how people view, and interact with their army, because duh. If you advocate for official lore changes, you're also advocating for potentially negatively changing how people view their own faction. This suggestion is absolutely not benign. It affects everyone.
And why does the possibility of including women negatively affect people?

Again, you come back to this "interacts with their army", but the existence of units I didn't like never stopped me interacting with my armies. I just... didn't include the bits I didn't like. There's nothing wrong with doing that here too.
It affects the identity of Space Marines, and individual chapters as a whole, where they function in universe, and how they interact both within the chapter and outside of it. Gone would be the days of battle brothers, monastic themes, and space crusaders.
That's not what I'm asking or referring to. You said about people interacting with their own armies - could you expand on that? If there were things in the lore about my faction that I wasn't keen on, I just didn't interact with it. I don't like Space Marine bikes - they've just never appealed to me - so I just don't include them.

And no, the days of "battle brothers, monastic themes and space crusaders" aren't gone at all.
You want Battle Brothers? Just don't take any women in your army.
You want monastic themes? Good news! Not all monastic orders are all male!
You want Space Crusaders? I don't see why you can't have women crusaders, if you're going to have all those tanks and aircraft that the real world crusaders didn't have.

Asking people to ignore it and just make only male armies is failing to understand the fundamental problem. Your army isn't real or canon anymore and doesn't exist in the universe.
Uh, yes it does. Or, rather, no less than it already did/didn't. Unless you collect the entire Chapter, down to the last accurate armour piece, named model, and exact wargear inventory at the most modern point in 40k lore, no-one's army is entirely representative of anything in 40k.

It's just a sandbox for you to do what you want with your own models. If you have an all male Space Marine force, who cares if apparently women are a thing now? I have an Ultramarine army with no bikes in, does that mean that it's not "real" because I didn't include any?
Your space marines are no longer what you thought they were.
No, *your* Space Marines can be whatever you want them to be. *My* Space Marines can now also be what I want them to be.

Having the option of women doesn't take away your choice not to have them.
Your faction is dead, and all your time and money gone into investing in it is as well.
Please, the hyperbole isn't helping.

Including the option for women doesn't invalidate your own collection. You aren't defined by what options other people have.
Sure your kitbashed FSM aren't canon either, but they also aren't shattering the themes and lore that has existed (and been invested into) for 30 years. You knew what you were getting into.
I've emphasised this point because you touch on exactly why women Astartes are important - because there's people looking in at 40k, and seeing that women aren't welcomed in, in favour of lore.

Again, I don't want to get further into why the "themes" and "lore" you describe aren't worth the paper they're printed on, but you can go read my arguments on it in the locked thread. Suffice to say, I don't put faith in the sanctity of the lore, for such reasons as Primaris.

BrianDavion wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And why does the possibility of including women negatively affect people?


because it would require a massive retcon of the lore?
Would it? It's smaller than adding all the stuff we have with Primaris

a big part of the identity of space marines is they are fraternal brotherhoods, with all the pros and cons that come of it.
A big part of their identity is also their player customisation.
You obviously don't think official lore has any bearing on how a player views, connects, with or influences a player and his or her army. This changes space marines as an entity, and on a fundamental level.

Do you just want me to ignore this hypothetical if it happened? Should I just put my head in the sand and say nah nah nah, this isn't happening? That isn't an argument.
The official lore is the setting of the game, and you're advocating to change that for what amounts to very little gain, and a lot of groaning and dissatisfaction as evidenced by 60% polling negatively.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 02:14:59


Post by: insaniak


 Sledgehammer wrote:
Do you just want me to ignore cadia happened? Should I just put my head in the sand and say nah nah nah, this isn't happening? That isn't an argument.

If you want to build an army that represents a Cadian force from the time before Cadia was broken, what exactly is stopping you?

40K has, over its history, included a whole bunch of special characters who were dead by the 'current' timeline. Were players somehow breaking the lore by using those characters in their armies?

I'm not a fan of Primaris marines. They're pretty and all, but I don't like the scale creep, and I wasn't a fan of the way they were introduced to the setting. Instead of burning all of my marines, I dealt with it by just not adding any Primaris marines to my armies.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 02:22:37


Post by: Sledgehammer


 insaniak wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Do you just want me to ignore cadia happened? Should I just put my head in the sand and say nah nah nah, this isn't happening? That isn't an argument.

If you want to build an army that represents a Cadian force from the time before Cadia was broken, what exactly is stopping you?

40K has, over its history, included a whole bunch of special characters who were dead by the 'current' timeline. Were players somehow breaking the lore by using those characters in their armies?

I'm not a fan of Primaris marines. They're pretty and all, but I don't like the scale creep, and I wasn't a fan of the way they were introduced to the setting. Instead of burning all of my marines, I dealt with it by just not adding any Primaris marines to my armies.
Why are we advocating for a position then that has a 60% disapproval rating? Should everyone just ignore it? Shouldn't we strive for internally consistent world building? Why can't we increase representation via other means? Why does it have to be so specific? It doesn't and this isn't the means to achieve any of those goals. It's a hill people want to die on because they want it, not because it makes any sense.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 02:40:05


Post by: insaniak


 Sledgehammer wrote:
Why are we advocating for a position then that has a 60% disapproval rating?

Because that's the premise of the thread: If GW were to add female space marines, how best to do it.

As is explained in the very first post, the reasons for and against were fairly heavily hashed out in the previous thread in the Background section. This thread was never intended to start that up again, but was merely supposed to allow for discussion of how best to implement it.


It's a hill people want to die on because they want it, not because it makes any sense.

No, I agree. We should absolutely strive for things to make sense in a setting where some abhumans are short because they come from high gravity worlds, and some abhumans are tall because they come from... high... grav... er...

Or we could accept that the setting was never intended to be taken particularly seriously. To each his own, I suppose.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 02:55:50


Post by: Sledgehammer


 insaniak wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Why are we advocating for a position then that has a 60% disapproval rating?

Because that's the premise of the thread: If GW were to add female space marines, how best to do it.

As is explained in the very first post, the reasons for and against were fairly heavily hashed out in the previous thread in the Background section. This thread was never intended to start that up again, but was merely supposed to allow for discussion of how best to implement it.


It's a hill people want to die on because they want it, not because it makes any sense.

No, I agree. We should absolutely strive for things to make sense in a setting where some abhumans are short because they come from high gravity worlds, and some abhumans are tall because they come from... high... grav... er...

Or we could accept that the setting was never intended to be taken particularly seriously. To each his own, I suppose.
I don't think we should be arguing against increased internal consistency.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:10:59


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 insaniak wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Why are we advocating for a position then that has a 60% disapproval rating?

Because that's the premise of the thread: If GW were to add female space marines, how best to do it.

As is explained in the very first post, the reasons for and against were fairly heavily hashed out in the previous thread in the Background section. This thread was never intended to start that up again, but was merely supposed to allow for discussion of how best to implement it.
And that is an answer in itself. The best way to add female marines is not too. The repeated attempts at pushing it again and again are basically an attempt to constantly push back against that.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:14:21


Post by: JNAProductions


You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.

The main piece of lore supporting that is, I believe, more than two decades old. It was referenced in a recent article-however, this article said "Not everything presented in the older material is accurate." There's also a singular reference to "Genesons" in the Creation Of Space Marines section of the Marines' Dex.

Marines being male isn't core to their identity. They're superhuman, power-armored soldiers fighting a bloody war for humanity's sake. Some of them are considered nice, for the setting-the Salamanders, somewhat the Ultramarines. Some are cold and callous-Iron Hands, for instance. Some are religious fanatics, like the Black Templars. Others aren't religious, in accordance with the Emperor's wishes. Some are glory-hounds, like Space Wolves; while others are more practical, like Raven Guard. Some dedicate themselves to excel in melee, like Blood Angels, while others spend more time on shooting.

With all those "They can be like this, or like this," which isn't even CLOSE to complete, why is women the line? Why is it fine to have werewolf Marines, or vampire Marines, or knightly Marines, or atheist Marines, or fanatic Marines, or cyborg Marines, or freaking ANYTHING, but NOT women Marines?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:19:10


Post by: Insectum7


 JNAProductions wrote:
You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.
That's a rather subjective claim to make. Imo it can easily be seen as pretty key.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:20:46


Post by: JNAProductions


 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.
That's a rather subjective claim to make. Imo it can easily be seen as pretty key.
Then explain why it's key.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:23:25


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.
That's a rather subjective claim to make. Imo it can easily be seen as pretty key.
Then explain why it's key.
Besides the fact that there is lore actually supporting it, it's a very weak argument that can change anyone aside from Sisters of Battle and Space Marines.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:25:02


Post by: Gert


What piece of background supports your position may I ask?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:25:19


Post by: Sledgehammer


 JNAProductions wrote:
You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.

The main piece of lore supporting that is, I believe, more than two decades old. It was referenced in a recent article-however, this article said "Not everything presented in the older material is accurate." There's also a singular reference to "Genesons" in the Creation Of Space Marines section of the Marines' Dex.

Marines being male isn't core to their identity. They're superhuman, power-armored soldiers fighting a bloody war for humanity's sake. Some of them are considered nice, for the setting-the Salamanders, somewhat the Ultramarines. Some are cold and callous-Iron Hands, for instance. Some are religious fanatics, like the Black Templars. Others aren't religious, in accordance with the Emperor's wishes. Some are glory-hounds, like Space Wolves; while others are more practical, like Raven Guard. Some dedicate themselves to excel in melee, like Blood Angels, while others spend more time on shooting.

With all those "They can be like this, or like this," which isn't even CLOSE to complete, why is women the line? Why is it fine to have werewolf Marines, or vampire Marines, or knightly Marines, or atheist Marines, or fanatic Marines, or cyborg Marines, or freaking ANYTHING, but NOT women Marines?
Because they are all fundamentally based on the organization and theme of the real world Military Orders, just as Sisters of Battle are based off of nuns. Whether you add wolves, knights, vampires, etc is irrelevant as long as it does not conflict with that core tenant. These are all different military orders that fight CRUSADES for their god with their brothers in arms. Putting a small spin on that core tenant is not tantamount to undermining that by adding in something that goes in direct opposition to it.

Why not men in the Sisters of Battle? It would undermine the whole nun theme.

Representation is important, but don't undermine the established lore and fantasy of the factions to do so. Elevate new characters, factions, etc, to give them the spotlight they DESERVE. You don't have retcon lore and alienate a fanbase in order to do so.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:25:53


Post by: JNAProductions


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.
That's a rather subjective claim to make. Imo it can easily be seen as pretty key.
Then explain why it's key.
Besides the fact that there is lore actually supporting it, it's a very weak argument that can change anyone aside from Sisters of Battle and Space Marines.
There's a several decade old article, specifically called out on WarCom as not fully accurate.
There's a reference to "Genesons" in the Codex.

I'm not saying "The lore, as it currently stands, allows for female Marines." Because that is not accurate.
But what I am saying is that being male is not essential to being an Astartes. It was a decision made decades ago that stuck, but doesn't really have any particular reason to stay stuck.

Edit: Also, as for men in SoB... You can run more men in a pure SoB army than you can women in the ENTIRETY of the rest of the Imperium. So we're already most of the way there.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:27:28


Post by: Sledgehammer


 JNAProductions wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.
That's a rather subjective claim to make. Imo it can easily be seen as pretty key.
Then explain why it's key.
Besides the fact that there is lore actually supporting it, it's a very weak argument that can change anyone aside from Sisters of Battle and Space Marines.
There's a several decade old article, specifically called out on WarCom as not fully accurate.
There's a reference to "Genesons" in the Codex.

I'm not saying "The lore, as it currently stands, allows for female Marines." Because that is not accurate.
But what I am saying is that being male is not essential to being an Astartes. It was a decision made decades ago that stuck, but doesn't really have any particular reason to stay stuck.

Edit: Also, as for men in SoB... You can run more men in a pure SoB army than you can women in the ENTIRETY of the rest of the Imperium. So we're already most of the way there.
But they're not sisters of battle. They're ecclesiarchy.

edit: why can't we just expand sisters of silence?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:28:42


Post by: Rihgu


Why not men in the Sisters of Battle?

My Adepta Sororitas/Sisters of Battle army can actually field almost entirely if not entirely male models between preachers, missionaries, arco-flagellants, crusaders, and penitent engines.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:30:35


Post by: JNAProductions


 Sledgehammer wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.

The main piece of lore supporting that is, I believe, more than two decades old. It was referenced in a recent article-however, this article said "Not everything presented in the older material is accurate." There's also a singular reference to "Genesons" in the Creation Of Space Marines section of the Marines' Dex.

Marines being male isn't core to their identity. They're superhuman, power-armored soldiers fighting a bloody war for humanity's sake. Some of them are considered nice, for the setting-the Salamanders, somewhat the Ultramarines. Some are cold and callous-Iron Hands, for instance. Some are religious fanatics, like the Black Templars. Others aren't religious, in accordance with the Emperor's wishes. Some are glory-hounds, like Space Wolves; while others are more practical, like Raven Guard. Some dedicate themselves to excel in melee, like Blood Angels, while others spend more time on shooting.

With all those "They can be like this, or like this," which isn't even CLOSE to complete, why is women the line? Why is it fine to have werewolf Marines, or vampire Marines, or knightly Marines, or atheist Marines, or fanatic Marines, or cyborg Marines, or freaking ANYTHING, but NOT women Marines?
Because they are all fundamentally based on the organization and theme of the real world Military Orders, just as Sisters of Battle are based off of nuns. Whether you add wolves, knights, vampires, etc is irrelevant as long as it does not conflict with that core tenant. These are all different military orders that fight CRUSADES for their god with their brothers in arms. Putting a small spin on that core tenant is not tantamount to undermining that by adding in something that goes in direct opposition to it.

Why not men in the Sisters of Battle? It would undermine the whole nun theme.

Representation is important, but don't undermine the established lore and fantasy of the factions to do so. Elevate new characters, factions, etc, to give them the spotlight they DESERVE. You don't have retcon lore and alienate a fanbase in order to do so.
What real-world military orders do you say they're based on?

Because if you're talking about Holy Crusade knights... There's a LOT of Marines that don't fit that. At all. Up to being atheists.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:31:16


Post by: Sledgehammer


Rihgu wrote:
Why not men in the Sisters of Battle?

My Adepta Sororitas/Sisters of Battle army can actually field almost entirely if not entirely male models between preachers, missionaries, arco-flagellants, crusaders, and penitent engines.
They're not sisters though. It's not like men can join the adeptus sororitas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.

The main piece of lore supporting that is, I believe, more than two decades old. It was referenced in a recent article-however, this article said "Not everything presented in the older material is accurate." There's also a singular reference to "Genesons" in the Creation Of Space Marines section of the Marines' Dex.

Marines being male isn't core to their identity. They're superhuman, power-armored soldiers fighting a bloody war for humanity's sake. Some of them are considered nice, for the setting-the Salamanders, somewhat the Ultramarines. Some are cold and callous-Iron Hands, for instance. Some are religious fanatics, like the Black Templars. Others aren't religious, in accordance with the Emperor's wishes. Some are glory-hounds, like Space Wolves; while others are more practical, like Raven Guard. Some dedicate themselves to excel in melee, like Blood Angels, while others spend more time on shooting.

With all those "They can be like this, or like this," which isn't even CLOSE to complete, why is women the line? Why is it fine to have werewolf Marines, or vampire Marines, or knightly Marines, or atheist Marines, or fanatic Marines, or cyborg Marines, or freaking ANYTHING, but NOT women Marines?
Because they are all fundamentally based on the organization and theme of the real world Military Orders, just as Sisters of Battle are based off of nuns. Whether you add wolves, knights, vampires, etc is irrelevant as long as it does not conflict with that core tenant. These are all different military orders that fight CRUSADES for their god with their brothers in arms. Putting a small spin on that core tenant is not tantamount to undermining that by adding in something that goes in direct opposition to it.

Why not men in the Sisters of Battle? It would undermine the whole nun theme.

Representation is important, but don't undermine the established lore and fantasy of the factions to do so. Elevate new characters, factions, etc, to give them the spotlight they DESERVE. You don't have retcon lore and alienate a fanbase in order to do so.
What real-world military orders do you say they're based on?

Because if you're talking about Holy Crusade knights... There's a LOT of Marines that don't fit that. At all. Up to being atheists.
You mean like having chapters, grand masters, crusades, brotherhoods, ritualistic practices (even if they claim to be atheistic), wearing armor, celibacy, getting shut down by the inquisition, looking for lost relics, etc.


why do they have to be space marines?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:41:29


Post by: JNAProductions


 Sledgehammer wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Why not men in the Sisters of Battle?

My Adepta Sororitas/Sisters of Battle army can actually field almost entirely if not entirely male models between preachers, missionaries, arco-flagellants, crusaders, and penitent engines.
They're not sisters though. It's not like men can join the adeptus sororitas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.

The main piece of lore supporting that is, I believe, more than two decades old. It was referenced in a recent article-however, this article said "Not everything presented in the older material is accurate." There's also a singular reference to "Genesons" in the Creation Of Space Marines section of the Marines' Dex.

Marines being male isn't core to their identity. They're superhuman, power-armored soldiers fighting a bloody war for humanity's sake. Some of them are considered nice, for the setting-the Salamanders, somewhat the Ultramarines. Some are cold and callous-Iron Hands, for instance. Some are religious fanatics, like the Black Templars. Others aren't religious, in accordance with the Emperor's wishes. Some are glory-hounds, like Space Wolves; while others are more practical, like Raven Guard. Some dedicate themselves to excel in melee, like Blood Angels, while others spend more time on shooting.

With all those "They can be like this, or like this," which isn't even CLOSE to complete, why is women the line? Why is it fine to have werewolf Marines, or vampire Marines, or knightly Marines, or atheist Marines, or fanatic Marines, or cyborg Marines, or freaking ANYTHING, but NOT women Marines?
Because they are all fundamentally based on the organization and theme of the real world Military Orders, just as Sisters of Battle are based off of nuns. Whether you add wolves, knights, vampires, etc is irrelevant as long as it does not conflict with that core tenant. These are all different military orders that fight CRUSADES for their god with their brothers in arms. Putting a small spin on that core tenant is not tantamount to undermining that by adding in something that goes in direct opposition to it.

Why not men in the Sisters of Battle? It would undermine the whole nun theme.

Representation is important, but don't undermine the established lore and fantasy of the factions to do so. Elevate new characters, factions, etc, to give them the spotlight they DESERVE. You don't have retcon lore and alienate a fanbase in order to do so.
What real-world military orders do you say they're based on?

Because if you're talking about Holy Crusade knights... There's a LOT of Marines that don't fit that. At all. Up to being atheists.
You mean like having chapters, grand masters, crusades, brotherhoods, ritualistic practices, wearing armor, celibacy, getting shut down by the inquisition, looking for lost relics, etc.
Chapters is a name.
Grand Masters are a GK thing-not a Marine thing.
Crusades is, again, simply a name for a war or a campaign.
Brotherhoods... I mean, they count as a brotherhood because they're all male, but you can't say "They're all male, therefore they should be all male!" and expect to be taken seriously.
Ritualistic practices-care to detail them? Stuff like the Ad Mech has, for instance? Or the Guard? Or the Sisters of Battle? Or, hell, me-I have morning and evening rituals. I wouldn't call them such, generally, but they count.
Wearing armor... Would you call a US Soldier in body armor a crusading knight, because they wear armor?
Celibacy is more because they're hypno-indoctrinated murderers who've been genetically modified to the extreme. It's not, to my knowledge, a "I have carnal desires, but I ignore them for the greater good!" it's more "I don't have carnal desires, other than to see the ruination of my enemies."
Shut down by the inquisition, like the Space Wolves do, huh? Or, less snarkily, like Ad Mech can be? Or Guard? Or xenos cults? Or chaos cults?
And looking for lost Relics... Like Ad Mech do? And that's more a Salamander and (I think) Blood Raven thing than a universal Marine thing.

Moreover, I'm pretty sure if you asked the average person what the core parts of the knights of the holy crusades were, you'd almost certainly get their religion as a center of it. Not that they had chapters. Or were shut down by the Inquisition.

Edit: Why Marines? Because Marines occupy 50% of the game. As the good Smudge said in the now-locked thread, representation doesn't work without visibility. So a simple upgrade sprue of female heads and future kits having a mix of helmeted, male, and female heads would go a long way towards making 40k (the hobby) more inclusive.

To quote myself from the thread...

The issue is, the lore as it is now DOES give sexists ammo and cover. Real-word sexists, not fictional ones.

That could change-it won’t change the sexist individuals, but it will make it clearer who they are and that it’s not acceptable. Isn’t that something that should be strived for?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:48:31


Post by: Sledgehammer


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Why not men in the Sisters of Battle?

My Adepta Sororitas/Sisters of Battle army can actually field almost entirely if not entirely male models between preachers, missionaries, arco-flagellants, crusaders, and penitent engines.
They're not sisters though. It's not like men can join the adeptus sororitas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.

The main piece of lore supporting that is, I believe, more than two decades old. It was referenced in a recent article-however, this article said "Not everything presented in the older material is accurate." There's also a singular reference to "Genesons" in the Creation Of Space Marines section of the Marines' Dex.

Marines being male isn't core to their identity. They're superhuman, power-armored soldiers fighting a bloody war for humanity's sake. Some of them are considered nice, for the setting-the Salamanders, somewhat the Ultramarines. Some are cold and callous-Iron Hands, for instance. Some are religious fanatics, like the Black Templars. Others aren't religious, in accordance with the Emperor's wishes. Some are glory-hounds, like Space Wolves; while others are more practical, like Raven Guard. Some dedicate themselves to excel in melee, like Blood Angels, while others spend more time on shooting.

With all those "They can be like this, or like this," which isn't even CLOSE to complete, why is women the line? Why is it fine to have werewolf Marines, or vampire Marines, or knightly Marines, or atheist Marines, or fanatic Marines, or cyborg Marines, or freaking ANYTHING, but NOT women Marines?
Because they are all fundamentally based on the organization and theme of the real world Military Orders, just as Sisters of Battle are based off of nuns. Whether you add wolves, knights, vampires, etc is irrelevant as long as it does not conflict with that core tenant. These are all different military orders that fight CRUSADES for their god with their brothers in arms. Putting a small spin on that core tenant is not tantamount to undermining that by adding in something that goes in direct opposition to it.

Why not men in the Sisters of Battle? It would undermine the whole nun theme.

Representation is important, but don't undermine the established lore and fantasy of the factions to do so. Elevate new characters, factions, etc, to give them the spotlight they DESERVE. You don't have retcon lore and alienate a fanbase in order to do so.
What real-world military orders do you say they're based on?

Because if you're talking about Holy Crusade knights... There's a LOT of Marines that don't fit that. At all. Up to being atheists.
You mean like having chapters, grand masters, crusades, brotherhoods, ritualistic practices, wearing armor, celibacy, getting shut down by the inquisition, looking for lost relics, etc.
Chapters is a name.
Grand Masters are a GK thing-not a Marine thing.
Crusades is, again, simply a name for a war or a campaign.
Brotherhoods... I mean, they count as a brotherhood because they're all male, but you can't say "They're all male, therefore they should be all male!" and expect to be taken seriously.
Ritualistic practices-care to detail them? Stuff like the Ad Mech has, for instance? Or the Guard? Or the Sisters of Battle? Or, hell, me-I have morning and evening rituals. I wouldn't call them such, generally, but they count.
Wearing armor... Would you call a US Soldier in body armor a crusading knight, because they wear armor?
Celibacy is more because they're hypno-indoctrinated murderers who've been genetically modified to the extreme. It's not, to my knowledge, a "I have carnal desires, but I ignore them for the greater good!" it's more "I don't have carnal desires, other than to see the ruination of my enemies."
Shut down by the inquisition, like the Space Wolves do, huh? Or, less snarkily, like Ad Mech can be? Or Guard? Or xenos cults? Or chaos cults?
And looking for lost Relics... Like Ad Mech do? And that's more a Salamander and (I think) Blood Raven thing than a universal Marine thing.

Moreover, I'm pretty sure if you asked the average person what the core parts of the knights of the holy crusades were, you'd almost certainly get their religion as a center of it. Not that they had chapters. Or were shut down by the Inquisition.
Yeah and the imperiums entire culture of war, religion, crusading, general architecture, etc doesn't aesthetically and thematically inform the viewer as to what is going on? Does the vernacular serve no purpose? The space marines are the champions of that very society. To argue against that is baffling. They absolutely are crusading on behalf of such a society.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 03:49:51


Post by: Insectum7


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.
That's a rather subjective claim to make. Imo it can easily be seen as pretty key.
Then explain why it's key.
Brotherhood of warrior monks? A dark future version of a distant-past organization/s. Pretty plain, imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Chapters is a name.
Grand Masters are a GK thing-not a Marine thing.
Crusades is, again, simply a name for a war or a campaign.
Brotherhoods... I mean, they count as a brotherhood because they're all male, but you can't say "They're all male, therefore they should be all male!" and expect to be taken seriously.
Ritualistic practices-care to detail them? Stuff like the Ad Mech has, for instance? Or the Guard? Or the Sisters of Battle? Or, hell, me-I have morning and evening rituals. I wouldn't call them such, generally, but they count.
Wearing armor... Would you call a US Soldier in body armor a crusading knight, because they wear armor?
Celibacy is more because they're hypno-indoctrinated murderers who've been genetically modified to the extreme. It's not, to my knowledge, a "I have carnal desires, but I ignore them for the greater good!" it's more "I don't have carnal desires, other than to see the ruination of my enemies."
Shut down by the inquisition, like the Space Wolves do, huh? Or, less snarkily, like Ad Mech can be? Or Guard? Or xenos cults? Or chaos cults?
And looking for lost Relics... Like Ad Mech do? And that's more a Salamander and (I think) Blood Raven thing than a universal Marine thing.

Moreover, I'm pretty sure if you asked the average person what the core parts of the knights of the holy crusades were, you'd almost certainly get their religion as a center of it. Not that they had chapters. Or were shut down by the Inquisition.
Pretty lousy argument, imo. If the authors intent in using all that terminology is to evoke "old world"/medevil imagery, then it all works in order to do just that. The authors of the setting get to choose how relevant it is. You as the audience are not so free to decide whether the choice of language matters or doesn't. You can attempt to handwave it away, bit it's simply not your choice.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 06:12:47


Post by: insaniak


 Insectum7 wrote:
Brotherhood of warrior monks? A dark future version of a distant-past organization/s. Pretty plain, imo..

So why can't a dark future version of that organisation, in a future that otherwise has no particular segregation of genders, include women?



How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 07:32:24


Post by: kirotheavenger


 JNAProductions wrote:
It was a decision made decades ago that stuck, but doesn't really have any particular reason to stay stuck.

There is a particular reason for it to stay stuck, because that's the way it currently is.
Like JK Rowling telling us Herminione is actually black it undermines everything that people understand about the story so far.
Retcons are always bad and should be avoided unless there's genuine improvement to be had beyond "just cuz".


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 07:48:19


Post by: Eldarsif


I am going to give my take on the entire matter as someone who has kitbashed a few female marines in my time. If somebody has already covered this my apologies.

I think the reason this is a point that gets brought up from time to time is basically because of how ubiquitous marines are to the entire setting. Not only are they the marketed as the main protagonist, get waves of supplements and chapters, but they are also the faction with the most toys. This means that anyone entering the hobby on the base level is always going to have to endure the bro club marines represent, which is also why a lot of people would be happy - me included - if female marines would be available and represented.

I mean, if you buy the starter for the first time it will always feel like you are entering "Space Marine" the game as everything else just feels like the NPC or villain of the week in comparison. So ubiquitous are marines that they have an entire side game dedicated to them(Horus Heresy). It is also the reason why I have found it easier to get women interested in Age of Sigmar than 40k because Stormcast does not represent the sausage club as much(except for a short period in 0.0).

Now, we've seen GW attempt to address this by giving us more SoB and making them more represented in the fluff and marketing material which to me is all good. It will, however, take a long time for them to get on par with the Marine giant that blots out the game with an endless wave of new toys each edition. It will just be an uphill battle for GW to unwind from and that is assuming they will in the first place.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 07:51:55


Post by: Gitdakka


I fail to see how this would translate into good looking minis. The armour I think should stay the same, otherwise they just look like bigger(?) sisters of battle. That leaves head swaps and that can already be done. I think female guardsmen are way more interesting as it would add some visual variety to those forces. Female marines, I dont really care.

In the lore just say cawl introduced a new geneseed for the ladies. No need for retcons. It would 't be worse than the primaris addition.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 07:57:05


Post by: Deadnight


I'll need to update my views.

I'd previously said I wasn't a fan of 'just make a headswap sprue as its lazy'.

On an fb primaris group I follow, someone posted up a reiver with a statuesque minis 'tech roider' female head.

It worked. I'd not come across headswaps before that felt right. This changed my mind.

So yeah, a sprue with some heroic scale femme heads can work and can look pretty good.



How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 08:01:14


Post by: some bloke


Considering that a lot of people are ignoring my requests in the opening posts and arguing about this here, which I Explicitly asked them not to...

I just want to thank everyone who voted before these threads are inevitably shut due to people not following the rules.

Seriously, if there were a disappointed emoji, I would be using it right now.

Big thanks to everyone who did follow the rules and just posted their reasons for voting, without feeling the need to pick holes in other peoples reasons!



How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 08:06:41


Post by: kirotheavenger


 some bloke wrote:
Considering that a lot of people are ignoring my requests in the opening posts and arguing about this here, which I Explicitly asked them not to...



You kicked the hornet's nest and are surprised they're stinging even though you asked them nicely not to?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 08:09:03


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 some bloke wrote:
Considering that a lot of people are ignoring my requests in the opening posts and arguing about this here, which I Explicitly asked them not to...
Quite literally. This is one of the most controversial topics in 40k that constantly pops up with very ardent defenders with very little inbetween. I'm surprised you didn't expect this to happen.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 08:17:09


Post by: Manchu


Hmm, if the logic goes that keeping SM as they are means that GW will focus more on SoB then there is just another argument for not changing SM to include females.



How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 08:19:35


Post by: some bloke


 kirotheavenger wrote:

You kicked the hornet's nest and are surprised they're stinging even though you asked them nicely not to?


Not surprised, just disappointed.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 08:30:58


Post by: Beardedragon


Tiberias wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
If you frame things like that is sound a bit absurd... But I swear you is very, very important for some people.


Ok but what if I say it is really, really important to me that GW makes male sisters of battle and male sisters of silence. That does not mean it's a good idea to implement, which female space marines are not imo. I voted not to implement them.


you are right! LETS ADD FEMALE ORKS TOO! BECAUSE WHY DOES FUNGUS HAS TO LOOK MALE?!

RE-DO ALL THE KITS!



Do you know why GW arent going to do this? Because they dont give a damn if a select minority of their users, apparently you included, have gotten woke. They dont care about woke. because if they catered to you woke people, they would need to do a massive overhaul of their kits, and would only please a very small minority. the cost of redoing everything wouldnt be worth it.


And lets not forget, if female variants have to be added to a lot of different kits among different armies, that time spend producing those new kits, is time not spend producing actually relevant kits like new releases. Do you really want female space marine kits so much you are willing to push back every other release? Im not.

And even though this is a female space marine kit we're talking about, we really should also be talking about female chaos space marine kits. Because why would there be female space marines but not female chaos space marines? Are females incapable of being corrupted? Thats just crazy talk

The majority dont give a damn. Because i can assure you, it wouldnt just stop with female space marines. people would start demanding feminine looking orks as well, as well as male 'sisters' (brothers?) of battle and female chaos space marines.


After all, why does fungus have to look male?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 08:39:56


Post by: kirotheavenger


GW did release a statement a couple of years ago about how inclusive they are.
They will definitely jump on the woke wagen as much as any company if they think it's in their interest.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 08:54:36


Post by: Altima


 Manchu wrote:
Hmm, if the logic goes that keeping SM as they are means that GW will focus more on SoB then there is just another argument for not changing SM to include females.



The problem with that logic is that GW will never support another faction as well as they support marines. Hell, GW can't even support the rest of the hobby as well as they support the astartes. Most likely the tides will turn at some point and SoB will end up with models five, ten, fifteen years out of date like every other faction--and that's assuming that some he-man woman hating reactionary doesn't get in GW to move the process along. Whereas Space Marines, barring some massive culture shift, will always be the number one priority when it comes to 40k.

Beardedragon wrote:


you are right! LETS ADD FEMALE ORKS TOO! BECAUSE WHY DOES FUNGUS HAS TO LOOK MALE?!


I agree. There actually is no reason that the sex-neutral but clearly masculine orks should all appear as male. Granted, they're meant to be a derogatory satire of hooligans, so it wouldn't necessarily be the most flattering inclusion in the game, especially if GW continues to have the actual human factions decidedly ignore the fact that half the human race is women.

On the other hand, with the newest ork release, GW seems to be moving away from satire for the orks to something properly savage and brutal.


Beardedragon wrote:

Do you know why GW arent going to do this? Because they dont give a damn if a select minority of their users, apparently you included, have gotten woke. They dont care about woke. because if they catered to you woke people, they would need to do a massive overhaul of their kits, and would only please a very small minority. the cost of redoing everything wouldnt be worth it.


They won't do it like they have with AoS, Necromunda, and so on? Really, 40k is the standout to clinging to mono-gender armies, especially their flagship faction.

The real reason GW doesn't expand the option more than likely has to do with their perceived image of how reactionary a sizeable section of their customer base would be at the idea of essentially seeing long hair on marines. 40k players do not have the best reputation among the tabletop community.


Beardedragon wrote:

And lets not forget, if female variants have to be added to a lot of different kits among different armies, that time spend producing those new kits, is time not spend producing actually relevant kits like new releases. Do you really want female space marine kits so much you are willing to push back every other release? Im not.


I find it hard to believe that essentially adding a few additional heads to a sprue will somehow strain GW's resources or delay their kits to a high degree when we can't even get an ork announcement without them sneaking in something for space marines to tide them over.


Beardedragon wrote:

And even though this is a female space marine kit we're talking about, we really should also be talking about female chaos space marine kits. Because why would there be female space marines but not female chaos space marines? Are females incapable of being corrupted? Thats just crazy talk


Sure, why not. Chaos as a whole needs looking at, so I don't think anyone would be too upset at female traitor guard and female dark mechanicum and female demons added along with female renegades. Of course that means there'll be primaris renegades since primaris are the new hotness and GW will never go back to giving firstborn anymore love.

As for females being incapable of being corrupted, well, I mean, I'm not sure on the recent lore, but last I read, only one Sister of Battle had ever deliberately fallen to chaos, but with astartes, you can't walk through a monastery without tripping over some renegades or traitors. So, yeah, as the lore stands, women are more reliable as far as that goes. Weird, huh?


Beardedragon wrote:

The majority dont give a damn. Because i can assure you, it wouldnt just stop with female space marines. people would start demanding feminine looking orks as well, as well as male 'sisters' (brothers?) of battle and female chaos space marines.


The determined argument against this topic indicates that many people do give a damn. By all accounts, the majority shouldn't give a damn since it wouldn't affect people who currently collect marines and would really just make the people who want female representation--or just not to be ridiculed for their conversations--happy. But weirdly enough, some people are oddly passionate about keeping marines boys only. Weird, huh?

I always find it weird when people bring up "But what about x faction!?" as if inclusion was some weird slippery slope and by default a negative. As of right now, including males in the Sisters of Battle is prohibited by the decree passive. So GW would have to change it to either men can join the sororitas but are legally recognized as women or the decree passive would have to be rescinded. Or both! Since the reintroduction of Guilliman, it would be a good time if GW were so inclined to do so. The thing is, the Sisters of Battle *as an army* has always been able to include men--from inquisitorial storm troops and militia from its inception when it was Witch Hunters to even now where you have priests and missionaries and penitents and arco flagellents and so on. So really, it's less of a gotcha than you think and I doubt many SoB would give any gaks. As stated before, SoB can include more men in their line-up than the rest of the Imperium factions can include women combined.

But yes, it could lead to as slippery slope. We might see more female Eldar than the...three-ish options we have now? Maybe we'll see some female IG since there are supposed to be entire regiments of women or mixed gender units. Hell, maybe Necrons, who are also supposed to include both genders but strangely have almost a dozen special characters that are all dudes, will get a character that identifies as female!


Beardedragon wrote:

After all, why does fungus have to look male?


You've convinced me! Let's do it. Let's give everyone girls! But let's start with the Space Marines since they're the most supported faction as well as the flagship face of 40k that most people will see first.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 08:54:47


Post by: Sim-Life


 kirotheavenger wrote:
GW did release a statement a couple of years ago about how inclusive they are.
They will definitely jump on the woke wagen as much as any company if they think it's in their interest.


Look up "lip service".


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 09:12:20


Post by: Cronch


 Sim-Life wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
GW did release a statement a couple of years ago about how inclusive they are.
They will definitely jump on the woke wagen as much as any company if they think it's in their interest.


Look up "lip service".

They've included a shedoad more female models in the last 5 years than over the previous 30, and started painting (and sculpting) models in skintones other than Pale British, so not really.

BECAUSE WHY DOES FUNGUS HAS TO LOOK MALE?!

I don't know, why does it?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 09:13:38


Post by: Insectum7


 insaniak wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Brotherhood of warrior monks? A dark future version of a distant-past organization/s. Pretty plain, imo..

So why can't a dark future version of that organisation, in a future that otherwise has no particular segregation of genders, include women?

It could, but it doesn't. Imo the fact that it doesn't lends a certain texture and resonance.

Plus the Sisters are a pretty clear segregation. Arguably moreso since their segregation is by decree rather than through the limitations of their science/method. In universe one organization is "won't" be diverse while the other is "can't".



How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 09:19:47


Post by: Beardedragon


 kirotheavenger wrote:
GW did release a statement a couple of years ago about how inclusive they are.
They will definitely jump on the woke wagen as much as any company if they think it's in their interest.


oh i have no doubt they eventually will, but right now, the space marine army is their most selling army and their poster boy. I dont think they "have" to be woke with the space marines as they already sell like wild fire.

Theres a big difference between selling new kits with female parts in it, which isw what they did with age of sigmar, and then redoing already done kits for the sake of it. that last part is what we're talking about, redoing the space marine parts with female parts. THAT i dont think they will be doing any time soon. but they probably will release new sculpts that adds more female parts


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 09:21:12


Post by: Tyel


I feel like a lot of "woke" arguments its all a bit artificial. I'm not convinced the cause of social justice is advanced at all if GW sell you a range of vaguely female looking potato heads to go with the vaguely male looking potato heads. Beneath the far superior helmets, no one knows what you look like.

Equally however I can vaguely imagine there are female players of the game who wish they could have female Space Marines on the table and in the fluff - and so live out the same power fantasy the boys do. By degrees I don't think throwing 30 years of fluff in the bin is good - but equally I'm not sure I'd care in a few years if they did.

Cue "nooo, you can't upgrade the Emperor's perfect design."/"haha, Primaris go brrr" memes.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 09:24:22


Post by: Vatsetis


 Sim-Life wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
GW did release a statement a couple of years ago about how inclusive they are.
They will definitely jump on the woke wagen as much as any company if they think it's in their interest.


Look up "lip service".


In spite that a few people think otherwise "Lip service" will be the most probable result of introducing FSM in a discrete manner bia head sprues and pronouns.

The intended target of such representation endevaour will surely not notice this chirurgical change.

Nevertheless such a change will alianate to various degrees quite a few people as the results of the polls clearly show.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 09:27:36


Post by: insaniak


 Insectum7 wrote:

Plus the Sisters are a pretty clear segregation. Arguably moreso since their segregation is by decree rather than through the limitations of their science/method. In universe one organization is "won't" be diverse while the other is "can't".

The Sisters' existence relies on a piece of wordplay that made some small amount of sense when it was introduced as a bit of a 'hur hur, see what we did there?' moment in the '90s, but makes much less since with the way the background for the Imperium has developed in the years since.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vatsetis wrote:

Nevertheless such a change will alianate to various degrees quite a few people as the results of the polls clearly show.

And like every other change over the history of the game, over time those who left because they hated it will be replaced by new players for whom that's just the way the game is.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 09:30:40


Post by: Altima


 Sim-Life wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
GW did release a statement a couple of years ago about how inclusive they are.
They will definitely jump on the woke wagen as much as any company if they think it's in their interest.


Look up "lip service".


To be fair, the statement was in...2018, I think. And since then, GW has gotten significantly better about including women, beyond just acknowledging that they exist. AoS includes female models in pretty much every kit now as well as special characters (even putting said characters front and center as the showcase piece in the armies). They've expanded 40k lore to include more female points of view among the 'Guard in the Black Library. Heck, they even released the entire new SoB during that time and put female heads on the hideously outdated guard sprue. Even Necromunda is fairly gender diverse at this point.

So it's clearly a little more than lip service. Is it enough? Not really--I'll save my final judgment for when we start seeing factions that really need updating like Eldar and IG, but GW is at least making somewhat of an effort. 40k just has a lot of baggage to unpack.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 09:37:18


Post by: Tiberias


Forget all the inclusion, sexism argument etc for a seconds. What I find curious is that it's seemingly OK nowadays to just throw lore continuity out the window by just giving handwavy reasons like "lore can always be changed" and "they've done it with primaris before".
Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea and virtually nobody liked primaris from a lore perspective. The models were what has been well recieved, not the lore about cawl waving his magic wand.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 09:46:10


Post by: kirotheavenger


Tiberias wrote:
Forget all the inclusion, sexism argument etc for a seconds. What I find curious is that it's seemingly OK nowadays to just throw lore continuity out the window by just giving handwavy reasons like "lore can always be changed" and "they've done it with primaris before".
Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea and virtually nobody liked primaris from a lore perspective. The models were what has been well recieved, not the lore about cawl waving his magic wand.

I totally agree, I've met very few people who actually like Primaris lore, it's always the new models that they like, and accept the new lore giving that to them.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 09:51:57


Post by: BrianDavion


Tiberias wrote:
Forget all the inclusion, sexism argument etc for a seconds. What I find curious is that it's seemingly OK nowadays to just throw lore continuity out the window by just giving handwavy reasons like "lore can always be changed" and "they've done it with primaris before".
Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea and virtually nobody liked primaris from a lore perspective. The models were what has been well recieved, not the lore about cawl waving his magic wand.


In fairness primaris began to work as they slowly fleshed it in but having Cawl once again "wave his magic wand" would likely destroy that goodwill they've built up. partiuclarly because a lot of that goodwill has been GW slowly showing us how little Cawl actually did


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 09:53:00


Post by: Cybtroll


Because it's lore than don't add anything to the setting. There is no conflict, no tension, no narrative attached to it. It only reduce the modelling opportunities, flies in the face of Marine as "DIY" faction, and doesn't even make sense from a realistic point of view considering how small (genetically speaking) we have find out difference between male and female are.
That's the on issue with Primaris by the way: for a short time I expected something like a purge or a civil war between the two brand of Marines (and it would be glorious), but GW chickened out, and I still think Primaris (lore wise) are atrocious.

But maybe there's some value in the lore here that I don't see: I would be curious to know (we have another topic to discuss the lore BTW, even if they are bleeding one into another).

From a model perspective, and additional set of head Primaris-size (I'm not naive, I know Firstborns won't get attention anymore) and the legitimate option to build them it's enough.
Then, if/when make sense commercially,start updating the range. I see the Emperor Children (note: not "sons") and the World Eaters as the best place to start, Marine-wise.
But if we want or be realistic, probably Space Wolves would be a more profitable choices.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 09:57:38


Post by: kirotheavenger


There is absolutely stuff attached to this lore.
The whole "Battle Brothers" thing is pretty central to Astartes identity. Almost every time Astartes refer to their brothers individually or collectively it's by the name "Brother".

"I personally don't care that much" is a really weaksauce argument when you see that 2/3 of this community obviously cares enough to say they don't female marines.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 10:02:23


Post by: Vatsetis


Answering to insaniak:

If new players will arrive no matter how the lore is changed and therefore the current players are irrelevant. I dont understand why on earth this issue is being debated in a forum through a poll.

Those engaged in the FSM crusade should start buying GW shares... Eventually they might actually achieve a majority and can rewrite the setting to their liking.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 10:10:59


Post by: Tiberias


 Cybtroll wrote:
Because it's lore than don't add anything to the setting. There is no conflict, no tension, no narrative attached to it. It only reduce the modelling opportunities, flies in the face of Marine as "DIY" faction, and doesn't even make sense from a realistic point of view considering how small (genetically speaking) we have find out difference between male and female are.
That's the on issue with Primaris by the way: for a short time I expected something like a purge or a civil war between the two brand of Marines (and it would be glorious), but GW chickened out, and I still think Primaris (lore wise) are atrocious.

But maybe there's some value in the lore here that I don't see: I would be curious to know (we have another topic to discuss the lore BTW, even if they are bleeding one into another).

From a model perspective, and additional set of head Primaris-size (I'm not naive, I know Firstborns won't get attention anymore) and the legitimate option to build them it's enough.
Then, if/when make sense commercially,start updating the range. I see the Emperor Children (note: not "sons") and the World Eaters as the best place to start, Marine-wise.
But if we want or be realistic, probably Space Wolves would be a more profitable choices.


I'm sorry but that is a very weak argument. By that logic it would be perfectly fine to change Gandalf from Lotr to an asian woman. Note that my point of contention in this case would not be that he's depicted as a woman, but that this is not what Tolkien originally intended and that matters. It doesn't add anything to the setting that he is depicted as a white male with flowing beard.

On another note what does it add to the setting that sisters of battle are all female? Just because it's in the name? Names can be changed, after all it's just lore. Same with sisters of silence.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 10:11:01


Post by: Deadnight


Tiberias wrote:
Forget all the inclusion, sexism argument etc for a seconds. What I find curious is that it's seemingly OK nowadays to just throw lore continuity out the window by just giving handwavy reasons like "lore can always be changed" and "they've done it with primaris before".
Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea and virtually nobody liked primaris from a lore perspective. The models were what has been well recieved, not the lore about cawl waving his magic wand.


It's as OK as it's ever been.

Gw have been throwing lore continuity out the window since they wrote the game. Remember when tigurius was half eldar, Space Wolves were based on lucan, leman russ was an 'imperial commander' and Space Marines were t3? Amongst many classic examples.

Gw will rip up their own lore and feed it to a grox if it suits their purposes. They always have. It's not a sacred cow.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 10:13:37


Post by: BrianDavion


Deadnight wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Forget all the inclusion, sexism argument etc for a seconds. What I find curious is that it's seemingly OK nowadays to just throw lore continuity out the window by just giving handwavy reasons like "lore can always be changed" and "they've done it with primaris before".
Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea and virtually nobody liked primaris from a lore perspective. The models were what has been well recieved, not the lore about cawl waving his magic wand.


It's as OK as it's ever been.

Gw have been throwing lore continuity out the window since they wrote the game. Remember when tigurius was half eldar, Space Wolves were based on lucan, leman russ was an 'imperial commander' and Space Marines were t3? Amongst many classic examples.

Gw will rip up their own lore and feed it to a grox if it suits their purposes. They always have. It's not a sacred cow.


for feth's sake can people stop trotting out changes from 2nd edition as if that was yesterday and not something from the early days of 40k before the setting was eistablished?

It's intellectually dishonest and I think everyone knows it


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 10:14:24


Post by: Tiberias


Deadnight wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Forget all the inclusion, sexism argument etc for a seconds. What I find curious is that it's seemingly OK nowadays to just throw lore continuity out the window by just giving handwavy reasons like "lore can always be changed" and "they've done it with primaris before".
Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea and virtually nobody liked primaris from a lore perspective. The models were what has been well recieved, not the lore about cawl waving his magic wand.


It's as OK as it's ever been.

Gw have been throwing lore continuity out the window since they wrote the game. Remember when tigurius was half eldar, Space Wolves were based on lucan, leman russ was an 'imperial commander' and Space Marines were t3? Amongst many classic examples.

Gw will rip up their own lore and feed it to a grox if it suits their purposes. They always have. It's not a sacred cow.


Yes, yes GW have changed their lore over the years, but saying that nothing has continuity in 40k is just being dishonest. Rogue trader years were wild regarding the lore, we all know that, but since the 2nd edition things have been actually rather stable regarding the lore.

Lore doesn't have to be revered as a sacred cow no, but it sould be treated carefully and lore consistency and continuity matters, in any setting.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 10:24:51


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 insaniak wrote:
So why can't a dark future version of that organisation, in a future that otherwise has no particular segregation of genders, include women?
Why should it?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 10:38:41


Post by: Cybtroll


[and here again we go talking about the lore]
Gandalf as an Asian woman? Tell me what it improves in the setting, and I'll tell you if make sense.
Build something about the fact that they come from East, or about the fact that Istari aren't really male or female and "Wizard appears exactly like they want, and not differently" and it would be fine. Make Saruman have a joke on the fact that Gandalf like to partnership with the losers (because LOTR is pretty sexist since it's more historically grounded).

I am continuously baffled by people throwing around those poor argument... The simple truth is that in any creating topic it is NEVER the argument what should be debated, but always the implementation.

There's nothing sacred, nothing forbidden, and nothing impossible. There are good and bad implementation. Imperial Knight changes were good (albeit a little juvenile). Primaris were bad.
You positioning to shot down an idea (not some of its implementation) speak more than anything else about your lack of creativity and vision, not about the idea itself that is, as any idea, essentially neutral.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 10:41:19


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Sledgehammer wrote:You obviously don't think official lore has any bearing on how a player views, connects, with or influences a player and his or her army. This changes space marines as an entity, and on a fundamental level.
Does it? Howso? On a fundamental level, you say? Please, explain.

Do you just want me to ignore this hypothetical if it happened? Should I just put my head in the sand and say nah nah nah, this isn't happening? That isn't an argument.
So, you're entirely on board with Primaris, because you shouldn't put your head in the sand?

How about my Cadians? Cadia was destroyed, do I need to destroy all my Cadians because of that?

Cato Sicarius went missing in the lore for a bit. Do I need to bin my model of him?
The official lore is the setting of the game, and you're advocating to change that for what amounts to very little gain, and a lot of groaning and dissatisfaction as evidenced by 60% polling negatively.
60% of a sliver of the 40k population isn't the slam dunk you think it is. In fact, it's pretty inconclusive, in terms of a widespread judgement.

Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You're arguing for Marines to stay all male, but that's not really essential to their identity.
That's a rather subjective claim to make. Imo it can easily be seen as pretty key.
And likewise, *that's* a subjective claim. So, perhaps the whole "THEM BEING ALL MALE IS KEY!!" argument shouldn't be being made, because clearly it's a subjective claim.

Sledgehammer wrote:Because they are all fundamentally based on the organization and theme of the real world Military Orders
Really? Fundamentally? I don't see that fundamental aspect in the Space Wolves.
Whether you add wolves, knights, vampires, etc is irrelevant as long as it does not conflict with that core tenant.
And why does including women break that core tenet, but making them werewolves, or steppe raiders, or Celts, or vampires, or Romans, or Egyptians, or Maori doesn't?

Again, it just seems awfully selective.
These are all different military orders that fight CRUSADES for their god with their brothers in arms. Putting a small spin on that core tenant is not tantamount to undermining that by adding in something that goes in direct opposition to it.
Exactly. I don't think that making some of them women is a direct opposition in any way.
Why do you?

kirotheavenger wrote:There is a particular reason for it to stay stuck, because that's the way it currently is.
... that's literally not an argument at all.

"It is, so it is" is the weakest possible argument to give. In the words of the Backstreet Boys, "tell me why".
Like JK Rowling telling us Herminione is actually black it undermines everything that people understand about the story so far.
It doesn't undermine anything about Hermione as a character.

If you're going to complain about that issue, you should know why it was a problem. Not because Hermione's race was changed for casting reasons, but because TERF-in-chief pretended like she'd always been racially ambiguous, which was an outright lie. If she'd retconned Hermione, that wouldn't have been an issue - the issue is that she serially lies about her work in order to make herself look better, instead of admitting to how she's not as saintly as she claims.
Retcons are always bad and should be avoided unless there's genuine improvement to be had beyond "just cuz".
So, you mind that Russ is a Primarch, and not a regular Imperial Army general? You don't like that the Ultramarines are a first founding Chapter, and don't have a half-Eldar Astropath?

Insectum7 wrote: In universe one organization is "won't" be diverse while the other is "can't".
Eh, I see one of those as a "can't", and the other as an "isn't" - and "isn't" definitely sums up how arbitrary I find it.

BrianDavion wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
It's as OK as it's ever been.

Gw have been throwing lore continuity out the window since they wrote the game. Remember when tigurius was half eldar, Space Wolves were based on lucan, leman russ was an 'imperial commander' and Space Marines were t3? Amongst many classic examples.

Gw will rip up their own lore and feed it to a grox if it suits their purposes. They always have. It's not a sacred cow.


for feth's sake can people stop trotting out changes from 2nd edition as if that was yesterday and not something from the early days of 40k before the setting was eistablished?

It's intellectually dishonest and I think everyone knows it
B-b-b-but I thought that all retcons were evil??

When was the setting "established"? 2015? 2003? 1990? Or, maybe, the setting has always been changing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
So why can't a dark future version of that organisation, in a future that otherwise has no particular segregation of genders, include women?
Why should it?
Why shouldn't it?

I hate to break it to you, but women are... well, naturally occurring. Saying "why should the setting include women" is as ridiculous as saying "why should the setting include men".


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 10:43:48


Post by: Tiberias


 Cybtroll wrote:
[and here again we go talking about the lore]
Gandalf as an Asian woman? Tell me what it improves in the setting, and I'll tell you if make sense.
Build something about the fact that they come from East, or about the fact that Istari aren't really male or female and "Wizard appears exactly like they want, and not differently" and it would be fine. Make Saruman have a joke on the fact that Gandalf like to partnership with the losers (because LOTR is pretty sexist since it's more historically grounded).

I am continuously baffled by people throwing around those poor argument... The simple truth is that in any creating topic it is NEVER the argument what should be debated, but always the implementation.

There's nothing sacred, nothing forbidden, and nothing impossible. There are good and bad implementation. Imperial Knight changes were good (albeit a little juvenile). Primaris were bad.
You positioning to shot down an idea (not some of its implementation) speak more than anything else about your lack of creativity and vision, not about the idea itself that is, as any idea, essentially neutral.


Yeah, so about those male sisters of battle and sisters of silence. How about we go about implementing those, since lore consitency and continuity apparently does not matter in any way shape or form. Also nobody ever argued that anthing about this is not possible or forbidden, just that it would be a bad idea to implement.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 10:57:43


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Retcons are always bad and should be avoided unless there's genuine improvement to be had beyond "just cuz".
So, you mind that Russ is a Primarch, and not a regular Imperial Army general? You don't like that the Ultramarines are a first founding Chapter, and don't have a half-Eldar Astropath?

That time was decades ago, I was scarcely even borne then and 40k was barely the same game.
40k has become well established for a long time since. You're being disengenuous to claim those retcons have a significant bearing at the moment.

If you want to talk about relevant retcons, such as Primaris.
No, I don't like those retcons. I wish those retcons had never occurred.

Do not confuse my opinion of what I want to happen with my opinion of what I think GW might do.
Of course GW could retcon in female marines. I'm saying I don't want them to.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:02:49


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Tiberias wrote:Yeah, so about those male sisters of battle and sisters of silence. How about we go about implementing those, since lore consitency and continuity apparently does not matter in any way shape or form.
Sure, yeah. I'm not complaining, if that gets women Astartes.

That's not quite the answer you expected, I imagine.
Also nobody ever argued that anthing about this is not possible or forbidden, just that it would be a bad idea to implement.
And why would that be the case?

kirotheavenger wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Retcons are always bad and should be avoided unless there's genuine improvement to be had beyond "just cuz".
So, you mind that Russ is a Primarch, and not a regular Imperial Army general? You don't like that the Ultramarines are a first founding Chapter, and don't have a half-Eldar Astropath?

That time was decades ago, I was scarcely even borne then and 40k was barely the same game.
But what about all those people who *were* around then, and have had their beloved setting retconned and the "established lore" broken apart?

40k has become well established for a long time since.
I don't remember Primaris being established years ago. Necrons were ten years ago? And the Black Crusade retcons?

I'm just asking for when it was a "well established" setting, is all.
If you want to talk about relevant retcons, such as Primaris.
No, I don't like those retcons. I wish those retcons had never occurred.
But I thought that they were lore, and that lore and canon were important?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:13:24


Post by: Tiberias


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tiberias wrote:Yeah, so about those male sisters of battle and sisters of silence. How about we go about implementing those, since lore consitency and continuity apparently does not matter in any way shape or form.
Sure, yeah. I'm not complaining, if that gets women Astartes.

That's not quite the answer you expected, I imagine.
Also nobody ever argued that anthing about this is not possible or forbidden, just that it would be a bad idea to implement.
And why would that be the case?


You just demonstrated that you don't care about lore consistency and continuity. That is a fair position to take, I am just of the opinion that ignoring these principles hurts any setting in the long run, especially when you try to force change because of quotas and identity politics.

I am on bord with female astartes the same day we get male sisters of battle/silence, female represented orks, male howling banshees etc.
Imo it wouldn't be 40k anymore, but hey if that is what the majority wants, at least be consistent and go all the way.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:17:34


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Tiberias wrote:
You just demonstrated that you don't care about lore consistency and continuity.
Oh, I like my lore, don't get me wrong - but only when I can justify why it is, and what it brings to the setting. I don't like this "it is, because it is" kind of things I'm seeing. Even when I was against women Astartes in the past, I always found that to be particularly weak argument.
That is a fair position to take, I am just of the opinion that ignoring these principles hurts any setting in the long run, especially when you try to force change because of quotas and identity politics.
I'm not doing it to meet a quota though. I'm doing it because I want to have women in my Space Marines, and many others like me also want that. What's wrong with wanting something because it's cool?

I am on bord with female astartes the same day we get male sisters of battle/silence, female represented orks, male howling banshees etc.
Imo it wouldn't be 40k anymore, but hey if that is what the majority wants, at least be consistent and go all the way.
I mean, there's already men in the Sororitas army anyway, Orks are funguses, but I don't mind deviations from what we already have, and I don't understand why Howling Banshees are all-women anyway, if they even are.

Evidently, I don't think 40k is tied to gender.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:19:20


Post by: Beardedragon


Im a little curious, why would they want to add female space marines, lore wise?

Each chapter as far as i recall is made up by like 1000 space marines. Given how small chapters are, and the fact there are millions if not billions of world under imperial rule, why the living feth would you need to research how to make females to fill your ranks with females when the losses you take should easily be filled with men alone?

Like, if the idea is, that the empire of man should do extensive research in to genes and trying to make females work, why would they, lorewise do that, when theres no NEED for them fill the slots with females? Its reseach thats not needed and is a waste of resources.

I could get it if men (which works already in their universe) were in short demand or they removed the rule of only 1000 space marines in each chapter. but they havent. So why go through all the research of trying to find out how to make female space marines if theres no bloody need?

Lorewise, thats an inconsistency.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:24:52


Post by: the_scotsman


Tiberias wrote:
Forget all the inclusion, sexism argument etc for a seconds. What I find curious is that it's seemingly OK nowadays to just throw lore continuity out the window by just giving handwavy reasons like "lore can always be changed" and "they've done it with primaris before".
Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea and virtually nobody liked primaris from a lore perspective. The models were what has been well recieved, not the lore about cawl waving his magic wand.


Yeah because it's literally always been like this.

The only time people have actually held up 'the lore' as sacred is in this new modern 'everything said in a show ever goes into a wiki article and is forever remembered.'

Used to be in a given setting, you'd have an episode of star trek where scotty gets a mind-virus that makes him unable to stop stabbing hookers on the planet of Seedy Barvania VII, it'd turn out to be the voice of Piglet from the old Winnie the Pooh cartoons who they cast as the ghost of Jack the Ripper, theyd wrap it all up in forty-five minutes and the show would go "the existence of ghosts? Murder charges? Female crew members no longer being able to trust Chief Engineer Triple Homicide? NAH, resolving that thread sounds boring, next we're going to the Planet of Ancient Rome where the final twist at the end of the episode is going to briefly imply that everyone in the star trek universe is a christian and then NEEEEEEEEEEEVER bring it up again!"


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:28:17


Post by: BrianDavion


 the_scotsman wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Forget all the inclusion, sexism argument etc for a seconds. What I find curious is that it's seemingly OK nowadays to just throw lore continuity out the window by just giving handwavy reasons like "lore can always be changed" and "they've done it with primaris before".
Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it's a good idea and virtually nobody liked primaris from a lore perspective. The models were what has been well recieved, not the lore about cawl waving his magic wand.


Yeah because it's literally always been like this.

The only time people have actually held up 'the lore' as sacred is in this new modern 'everything said in a show ever goes into a wiki article and is forever remembered.'

Used to be in a given setting, you'd have an episode of star trek where scotty gets a mind-virus that makes him unable to stop stabbing hookers on the planet of Seedy Barvania VII, it'd turn out to be the voice of Piglet from the old Winnie the Pooh cartoons who they cast as the ghost of Jack the Ripper, theyd wrap it all up in forty-five minutes and the show would go "the existence of ghosts? Murder charges? Female crew members no longer being able to trust Chief Engineer Triple Homicide? NAH, resolving that thread sounds boring, next we're going to the Planet of Ancient Rome where the final twist at the end of the episode is going to briefly imply that everyone in the star trek universe is a christian and then NEEEEEEEEEEEVER bring it up again!"


people argued about that stuff long before the internet dude.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:28:45


Post by: Tiberias


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
You just demonstrated that you don't care about lore consistency and continuity.
Oh, I like my lore, don't get me wrong - but only when I can justify why it is, and what it brings to the setting. I don't like this "it is, because it is" kind of things I'm seeing. Even when I was against women Astartes in the past, I always found that to be particularly weak argument.
That is a fair position to take, I am just of the opinion that ignoring these principles hurts any setting in the long run, especially when you try to force change because of quotas and identity politics.
I'm not doing it to meet a quota though. I'm doing it because I want to have women in my Space Marines, and many others like me also want that. What's wrong with wanting something because it's cool?

I am on bord with female astartes the same day we get male sisters of battle/silence, female represented orks, male howling banshees etc.
Imo it wouldn't be 40k anymore, but hey if that is what the majority wants, at least be consistent and go all the way.
I mean, there's already men in the Sororitas army anyway, Orks are funguses, but I don't mind deviations from what we already have, and I don't understand why Howling Banshees are all-women anyway, if they even are.

Evidently, I don't think 40k is tied to gender.


How can you be so intellectually dishonest and expect to be taken seriously? Saying there are males in a sisters army is like me saying there are female chapter serfs and servitors in a space marine army.

Also your argument that primaris were a lore change and lore changes be bad is dishonest also. People didn't like primaris lore because gw pulled it out of their asses. It didn't fit within the 20+year lore already established and this is the same reason people wouldn't like female marines.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:32:18


Post by: the_scotsman


There are, canonically, male howling banshees and female aspect warriors of all the various aspects. The armor is just designed as an homage to the original warrior that created the Aspect.

I'm fairly sure there are even helmetless male howling banshee heads in the box.

Just for a real quick reminder of what *should* exist canonically:

-Male howling banshees and Female every other aspect+incubi
-Female guardsmen (have models now as of the new head sprue)
-Female Scions (this one was actually news to me, I thought all the female recruits from 40k Hogwarts went into the sororitas but apparently not I dont follow that lore too closely)
-Female Tau (have models)
-Female GSC (have models in the new biker/HQ kits they did for wave 2)
-Female necrons (exist in lore, in game they all look like skellingtons and all the named characters in the codex just happen to be male)
-Female Imperial Knights

and what has no reason to not exist canonically:

-Female Custodes
-Female Chaos Space Marines (even if they have to adhere to the same bs fake science 'cant survive the initiation process' or whatever, chaos adds horns and tentacles and bat wings and turns space marines into big blobs of gibbering goop, you bet your ass there are female chaos space marines)


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:34:46


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Beardedragon wrote:Im a little curious, why would they want to add female space marines, lore wise?

Each chapter as far as i recall is made up by like 1000 space marines. Given how small chapters are, and the fact there are millions if not billions of world under imperial rule, why the living feth would you need to research how to make females to fill your ranks with females when the losses you take should easily be filled with men alone?
Because many of those billions of worlds aren't Astartes homeworlds or recruitment centres. Most worlds aren't, in fact.

Space Marines typically recruit from one system, maybe a small fiefdom if they're lucky or influential. Of that significantly smaller proportion, they're recruiting from usually lower populations than the rest of the Imperium (many Astartes recruitment bases are from low population worlds - feudal and death worlds are more common recruitment locations than hive worlds). Then of that population, you're only recruiting from the adolescent age bracket, and then whatever trials you have in store (and, side note, many of these trials aren't based on physical ability alone - most of them seem more about mental fortitude and resilience than anything physical). From what I understand, these trials are difficult enough to weed out a lot of the potential aspirants, and complications in the actual surgeries could kill off more recruits.

So why on earth does the Imperium want to cut that recruitment pool in half? Aren't they about trying to be winning this war?

Plus, if the Imperium were so adept at filling up their Chapters, why are we nearly always told how there's never enough Space Marines, and that the Imperium is constantly on the back foot?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:38:05


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you want to talk about relevant retcons, such as Primaris.
No, I don't like those retcons. I wish those retcons had never occurred.
But I thought that they were lore, and that lore and canon were important?

Continuing our discussion on mischaracterising positions from the other thread, are you trying to make my point for me?
You've literally included the quote that contradicts the argument you're trying to imply I'm making.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:38:05


Post by: Sim-Life


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tiberias wrote:Yeah, so about those male sisters of battle and sisters of silence. How about we go about implementing those, since lore consitency and continuity apparently does not matter in any way shape or form.
Sure, yeah. I'm not complaining, if that gets women Astartes.

That's not quite the answer you expected, I imagine.


"Ohoho! I bet you didn't expect me to cut off my nose to spite my face. That THAT!"



How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:39:18


Post by: vipoid


You know, as an aside, this conversation always strikes me as a little odd.

It seems to boil down to "Why does this paranoid, fascist, theocratic society with no regard for human life not have progressive values when it comes to gender-equality?"

Again, I have no particular horse in this race (beyond not wanting to see yet another wave of Marine releases ). I don't play Marines and haven't cared about their fluff since 3rd, so I don't particularly care if female Marines are made canon or not.

It just strikes me as a request that seems a little incongruent with what the Imperium is portrayed as.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:41:52


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Tiberias wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
You just demonstrated that you don't care about lore consistency and continuity.
Oh, I like my lore, don't get me wrong - but only when I can justify why it is, and what it brings to the setting. I don't like this "it is, because it is" kind of things I'm seeing. Even when I was against women Astartes in the past, I always found that to be particularly weak argument.
That is a fair position to take, I am just of the opinion that ignoring these principles hurts any setting in the long run, especially when you try to force change because of quotas and identity politics.
I'm not doing it to meet a quota though. I'm doing it because I want to have women in my Space Marines, and many others like me also want that. What's wrong with wanting something because it's cool?

I am on bord with female astartes the same day we get male sisters of battle/silence, female represented orks, male howling banshees etc.
Imo it wouldn't be 40k anymore, but hey if that is what the majority wants, at least be consistent and go all the way.
I mean, there's already men in the Sororitas army anyway, Orks are funguses, but I don't mind deviations from what we already have, and I don't understand why Howling Banshees are all-women anyway, if they even are.

Evidently, I don't think 40k is tied to gender.


How can you be so intellectually dishonest and expect to be taken seriously?
Intellectually dishonest? I thought you said a second ago that you respected that I was fair in my treatment of Astartes and Sororitas?

Which one is it? Surely I'd only be being dishonest if I claimed that Sisters lore was inviolate, but Space Marines wasn't?
Saying there are males in a sisters army is like me saying there are female chapter serfs and servitors in a space marine army.
Servitors don't have a gender, and there *are* no Chapter serf models. Unless you can point to me where I can take Chapter serfs in my army?

So yeah - there *aren't* Chapter serfs available to me. And remember - this is the "models" topic.

Also your argument that primaris were a lore change and lore changes be bad is dishonest also.
No, what's dishonest is saying you care so much about the lore, but are so happy to disavow whatever you don't like.

Admit it - this isn't about "preserving the lore", because Primaris are evidence that you don't care about preserving things "because that's what they are". This is about preserving what you want the lore to be, what you think is the One True Lore.

If you truly thought that "the lore should stay like it is, because it is", then you wouldn't be complaining about Primaris, because *they're the lore now*.
People didn't like primaris lore because gw pulled it out of their asses. It didn't fit within the 20+year lore already established
And what happens when Primaris become established lore? How long do I need to wait until they're "established lore"? 10 years? 5 years? 20 years? When the lore was "established", as you put it, when did it become immune to change?

Established lore is constantly changing. It's why I can't take any lore argument seriously that also includes something along the lines of "but Primaris aren't established lore".
That, my friend, is intellectual dishonesty.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:48:01


Post by: Eldarsif


Yeah, so about those male sisters of battle and sisters of silence. How about we go about implementing those, since lore consitency and continuity apparently does not matter in any way shape or form. Also nobody ever argued that anthing about this is not possible or forbidden, just that it would be a bad idea to implement.


Don't see a problem with adding male-bodied individuals to those organizations. Although on a funny note Codex Sisters of Battle has more men than Codex Space Marines has women currently(as well as historically). Codex SoB even have xenos now.

male howling banshees


The lore really doesn't speak against male Aeldari from being Howling Banshees. The problem is more that GW loves their boobplates.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:48:14


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


kirotheavenger wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
If you want to talk about relevant retcons, such as Primaris.
No, I don't like those retcons. I wish those retcons had never occurred.
But I thought that they were lore, and that lore and canon were important?

Continuing our discussion on mischaracterising positions from the other thread, are you trying to make my point for me?
You've literally included the quote that contradicts the argument you're trying to imply I'm making.
It doesn't contradict anything.

You're making this claim that the lore is sacred and important. Primaris are the lore now.

The fact that you scream about them being retcons, and therefore invalid, is just showing me how selective you're being with what you consider sacred lore.

How can I take a lore-based argument seriously when it isn't consistent?

Sim-Life wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tiberias wrote:Yeah, so about those male sisters of battle and sisters of silence. How about we go about implementing those, since lore consitency and continuity apparently does not matter in any way shape or form.
Sure, yeah. I'm not complaining, if that gets women Astartes.

That's not quite the answer you expected, I imagine.


"Ohoho! I bet you didn't expect me to cut off my nose to spite my face. That THAT!"
I don't see that I'm losing anything. I rather see it as "you didn't expect that I'd pull out that annoying splinter?"

vipoid wrote:You know, as an aside, this conversation always strikes me as a little odd.

It seems to boil down to "Why does this paranoid, fascist, theocratic society with no regard for human life not have progressive values when it comes to gender-equality?"
Because we've never seen them act institutionally sexist?

If GW wanted to, they could *totally* have made the Imperium institutionally sexist, but they didn't. We have women High Lords, we have mixed gender Guardsmen, we have Imperial governors who are women, we have women in the Admech and Knight Houses, we have women Inquisitors, Assassins, and lowlifes alike.

So, from a "lore" and "canon" perspective, it's "well established lore" that the Imperium isn't institutionally sexist. Just to mention that.

Again, I have no particular horse in this race (beyond not wanting to see yet another wave of Marine releases ). I don't play Marines and haven't cared about their fluff since 3rd, so I don't particularly care if female Marines are made canon or not.
Now, I'm actually entirely agreed on that. I don't want another wave of Space Marine releases either. A single headswap sprue, like the existing upgrade kits, would be enough for me as is.

It just strikes me as a request that seems a little incongruent with what the Imperium is portrayed as.
Again, purely from what the Imperium is *actually* portrayed as, it's not incongruent at all.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:52:30


Post by: Crimson


I was thinking about this more. Were I in charge of GW, wanted to introduce female Astartes whilst trying to minimise pushback, how would I do it?

Make a new minor chapter or 'elevate' an existing known minor chapter to a status of supported chapter. I.e. to non-first founding chapter with their own rules and some fluff like Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Flesh Tearers etc. You don't need a full supplement book, you can just dedicate couple of pages to them in some campaign book. Let the 'quirk' of that chapter to be that they have female marines (though not as their only defining feature.) So for example, Shields of Helios, a Greek-inspired Ultramarine successor chapter who happen, for some historical reason, have female marines. And have some vague sentence implying that whilst this is rare, they're not literally the only chapter doing this. Make an upgrade sprue for that chapter with some female heads, similar to the existing primaris upgrade sprues.

That's it at this point, don't make a big deal about this. Then people can play that chapter or have their own custom chapter with official fluff support and official GW bits. And I think over time people simply get used to the idea that female marines can be a thing, and the opposition will lessen and then perhaps you can expand it to other canon chapters. But that step really isn't that important.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:57:23


Post by: Eldarsif


 Crimson wrote:
I was thinking about this more. Were I in charge of GW, wanted to introduce female Astartes whilst trying to minimise pushback, how would I do it?

Make a new minor chapter or 'elevate' an existing known minor chapter to a status of supported chapter. I.e. to non-first founding chapter with their own rules and some fluff like Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Flesh Tearers etc. You don't need a full supplement book, you can just dedicate couple of pages to them in some campaign book. Let the 'quirk' of that chapter to be that they have female marines (though not as their only defining feature.) So for example, Shields of Helios, a Greek-inspired Ultramarine successor chapter who happen, for some historical reason, have female marines. And have some vague sentence implying that whilst this is rare, they're not literally the only chapter doing this. Make an upgrade sprue for that chapter with some female heads, similar to the existing primaris upgrade sprues.

That's it at this point, don't make a big deal about this. Then people can play that chapter or have their own custom chapter with official fluff support and official GW bits. And I think over time people simply get used to the idea that female marines can be a thing, and the opposition will lessen and then perhaps you can expand it to other canon chapters. But that step really isn't that important.


Probably a good approach. Basically not touch upon the established chapters(for now) that would enrage the fanboys and leave it to a new chapter to make its mark.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 11:57:41


Post by: Apple fox


 vipoid wrote:
You know, as an aside, this conversation always strikes me as a little odd.

It seems to boil down to "Why does this paranoid, fascist, theocratic society with no regard for human life not have progressive values when it comes to gender-equality?"

Again, I have no particular horse in this race (beyond not wanting to see yet another wave of Marine releases ). I don't play Marines and haven't cared about their fluff since 3rd, so I don't particularly care if female Marines are made canon or not.

It just strikes me as a request that seems a little incongruent with what the Imperium is portrayed as.


GW has kinda been toning that all down, some of the reason may be that there are lots of people that don’t get that the imperium is as much the bad of the setting as others.
GW does have a bit in written form, but they often miss the mark and I am not sure they really are ready to write that. There target is still primary teenage boys I suspect, who are probably the worst demographic for those themes.
It’s probably why marines are leaning so much into more power fantasy than the horrors that really would be a marine.
Doing it is easy, doing it well is hard!


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:05:11


Post by: Tiberias


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
You just demonstrated that you don't care about lore consistency and continuity.
Oh, I like my lore, don't get me wrong - but only when I can justify why it is, and what it brings to the setting. I don't like this "it is, because it is" kind of things I'm seeing. Even when I was against women Astartes in the past, I always found that to be particularly weak argument.
That is a fair position to take, I am just of the opinion that ignoring these principles hurts any setting in the long run, especially when you try to force change because of quotas and identity politics.
I'm not doing it to meet a quota though. I'm doing it because I want to have women in my Space Marines, and many others like me also want that. What's wrong with wanting something because it's cool?

I am on bord with female astartes the same day we get male sisters of battle/silence, female represented orks, male howling banshees etc.
Imo it wouldn't be 40k anymore, but hey if that is what the majority wants, at least be consistent and go all the way.
I mean, there's already men in the Sororitas army anyway, Orks are funguses, but I don't mind deviations from what we already have, and I don't understand why Howling Banshees are all-women anyway, if they even are.

Evidently, I don't think 40k is tied to gender.


How can you be so intellectually dishonest and expect to be taken seriously?
Intellectually dishonest? I thought you said a second ago that you respected that I was fair in my treatment of Astartes and Sororitas?

Which one is it? Surely I'd only be being dishonest if I claimed that Sisters lore was inviolate, but Space Marines wasn't?
Saying there are males in a sisters army is like me saying there are female chapter serfs and servitors in a space marine army.
Servitors don't have a gender, and there *are* no Chapter serf models. Unless you can point to me where I can take Chapter serfs in my army?

So yeah - there *aren't* Chapter serfs available to me. And remember - this is the "models" topic.

Also your argument that primaris were a lore change and lore changes be bad is dishonest also.
No, what's dishonest is saying you care so much about the lore, but are so happy to disavow whatever you don't like.

Admit it - this isn't about "preserving the lore", because Primaris are evidence that you don't care about preserving things "because that's what they are". This is about preserving what you want the lore to be, what you think is the One True Lore.

If you truly thought that "the lore should stay like it is, because it is", then you wouldn't be complaining about Primaris, because *they're the lore now*.
People didn't like primaris lore because gw pulled it out of their asses. It didn't fit within the 20+year lore already established
And what happens when Primaris become established lore? How long do I need to wait until they're "established lore"? 10 years? 5 years? 20 years? When the lore was "established", as you put it, when did it become immune to change?

Established lore is constantly changing. It's why I can't take any lore argument seriously that also includes something along the lines of "but Primaris aren't established lore".
That, my friend, is intellectual dishonesty.


Oh boy the irony. First off I respected your position that you don't care about lore consistency and continuity, not that you apply double standards in your arguments. So let me get this straight: arguing for sisters of battle to be also male is something different because in that army you can play male priests of the ecclesiarchy? But for female space marines it is a different story because there is no model for a female fleet admiral or chapter serf? Are you actually kidding me? And you are accusing me of being intellectually dishonest in this conversation? You can not be serious.

The issue with primaris lore is not when something becomes "established" lore, but how abruptly and for what reason it was changed and how big of an impact it is. Games Workshop wanted to up scale marines and sell new models, hence why hey pulled cawl and his magic wand out of their butts. Suddenly there was technological advancement in the imperium because GW wanted to sell shiny new toys, which contradicted decades of lore that depicted the imperium as technologically regressive, which in turn was arguably a big part of the "grimdark" setting. That is what many people had a problem with.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:05:51


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


The fact that you scream about them being retcons, and therefore invalid, is just showing me how selective you're being with what you consider sacred lore.

When did I say Primaris were invalid? I don't know if you're subconsciously filling in blanks in your mind or you're being deliberately disingenous (I suspect the former), but either way you need to stop.

I said I didn't like the retcon that Primaris represented.
But I understand that they're now official lore, and I would dislike GW further retconning them. A retcon like "oh btw they've been girls for the past 3 years you need to use Battle Sister half the time".


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:07:49


Post by: BrianDavion


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Because we've never seen them act institutionally sexist?


Sure we have.

- Sisters of Battle
-Space Marines
- Referances in various source suggest Guard regiments are often segregated
-IIRC there are referances to the Ecclisiarchy outside sisters of battle being fairly patriarchal
- initally Imperial Knights (GW changed course IMHO in response to blow back)

we don't see it often but we do see that some things are indeed that way.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:16:12


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Tiberias wrote:Oh boy the irony. First off I respected your position that you don't care about lore consistency and continuity, not that you apply double standards in your arguments.
So when I then emphasise my argument isn't based on continuity, you call me intellectually dishonest? Which one is it?
So let me get this straight: arguing for sisters of battle to be also male is something different because in that army you can play male priests of the ecclesiarchy? But for female space marines it is a different story because there is no model for a female fleet admiral or chapter serf?
When did I say that?

I said that Sisters of Battle already have male members, but that I'm fine adding more. However, I was pointing out that your claim that Space Marines have women already in them is disingenuous, because Chapter serfs don't exist on the tabletop, let alone women ones.
Making both Space Marines and Sororitas mixed gender is fine. But pretending like they're both mixed gender already is a blatant lie.

The issue with primaris lore is not when something becomes "established" lore, but how abruptly and for what reason it was changed and how big of an impact it is.
But now it *is* lore. It shouldn't matter how abrupt it is, the moment it's lore, is it not "lore"?
Suddenly there was technological advancement in the imperium because GW wanted to sell shiny new toys, which contradicted decades of lore that depicted the imperium as technologically regressive, which in turn was arguably a big part of the "grimdark" setting. That is what many people had a problem with.
But that was lore. The moment it was printed, it had become "established lore". That's how lore works - it changes on GW's whims.

All I'm saying is that if the lore is so sacred, and that GW's lore and canon shouldn't be criticised because "it is, so it is" (which has been an overwhelming defence of the exclusion of women Astartes), then surely the moment Primaris were announced as "canon", people should just have accept that as "established lore".

kirotheavenger wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


The fact that you scream about them being retcons, and therefore invalid, is just showing me how selective you're being with what you consider sacred lore.

When did I say Primaris were invalid?
Perhaps not in as many words, but you evidently don't fully accept them. You outright admit that you don't like them and what they represent, both as a retcon, and within the setting.

If the lore was so inviolate, this wouldn't be an issue.
A retcon like "oh btw they've been girls for the past 3 years you need to use Battle Sister half the time".
Why would you need to use Battle Sisters? I thought Battle Sisters had a strong faction identity without being related to Space Marines?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:19:23


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Wouldn't it be better then to just add Chapter Serfs to Space Marines, instead of reinventing the wheel and causing a fuss?
FSM seems like a really inelegant solution when there are more effective ways of going about it.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:20:56


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


BrianDavion wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Because we've never seen them act institutionally sexist?


Sure we have.

- Sisters of Battle
Not institutionally sexist. The Sisters are only all-women because of a legal loophole, not because someone thought that only women should be able to be the servants of the Church.
-Space Marines
Entirely unclear, from your own "side" of the argument. Are Space Marines all male because of biology? Are they all male because the Emperor alone (who never actually made the Space Marines, but sure) was sexist? Are they all male because "tradition"? Are they all male because they all just look like men and use masculine pronouns?

We don't know, but it certainly doesn't seem to be institutional.
- Referances in various source suggest Guard regiments are often segregated
Then reference them.
-IIRC there are referances to the Ecclisiarchy outside sisters of battle being fairly patriarchal
Reference?
- initally Imperial Knights (GW changed course IMHO in response to blow back)
So, not institutionally sexist then.

we don't see it often
So, not really institutionally sexist then, are they?
but we do see that some things are indeed that way.
Of the 5 you listed, two of them are outright wrong, one is entirely unclear, and the other two you ought to provide modern sources for.

Yeah, I don't think things are "that way" at all.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:22:44


Post by: Sunny Side Up


/shrug

With all the Sisters plastic kits out there, it'd be a reasonably easy hobby project to make a women Marine chapter, even without using any third party bits.

Not sure what the fuss is.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:22:58


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wouldn't it be better then to just add Chapter Serfs to Space Marines, instead of reinventing the wheel and causing a fuss?
FSM seems like a really inelegant solution when there are more effective ways of going about it.
Wouldn't Chapter serfs be even more like "reinventing the wheel"? After all, that's a whole load of new models you need to make, new units, new designs, new rules. Actually, I suppose it's not "reinventing the wheel", it's more like "inventing a hand glider".

As opposed to a headswap and "Cawl invented a new way to make women using the Sangprimus Portum"? That one seems so much simpler and effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
/shrug

With all the Sisters plastic kits out there, it'd be a reasonably easy hobby project to make a women Marine chapter, even without using any third party bits.

Not sure what the fuss is.
Honestly, the Sisters heads fit really nicely on Primaris bodies! The only issue is making that canon, really, and that it would kinda suck if you didn't happen to collect Sisters too.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:27:48


Post by: kirotheavenger


Oh so you were deliberately twisting what I've said, gotcha. Please stop.

Battle Sister as in the female equivalent to Battle Brother.
The fact that that's already a thing is just further reason we don't need to add it!

EDIT: Christ, this chat is moving so quick by the time I've typed a message I'm like 4 posts behind.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:29:17


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wouldn't it be better then to just add Chapter Serfs to Space Marines, instead of reinventing the wheel and causing a fuss?
FSM seems like a really inelegant solution when there are more effective ways of going about it.
Wouldn't Chapter serfs be even more like "reinventing the wheel"? After all, that's a whole load of new models you need to make, new units, new designs, new rules. Actually, I suppose it's not "reinventing the wheel", it's more like "inventing a hand glider".

As opposed to a headswap and "Cawl invented a new way to make women using the Sangprimus Portum"? That one seems so much simpler and effective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
/shrug

With all the Sisters plastic kits out there, it'd be a reasonably easy hobby project to make a women Marine chapter, even without using any third party bits.

Not sure what the fuss is.
Honestly, the Sisters heads fit really nicely on Primaris bodies! The only issue is making that canon, really, and that it would kinda suck if you didn't happen to collect Sisters too.


It's reinventing the wheel because you have to fiddle with the fluff even more and risk the same level of uproar (perhaps even greater) as the Primaris release. People are still aggravated over that, and it's been, what, 2 years?
Chapter Serfs already exist in the fluff. I would much rather an existing element of the fluff gets developed and receive models than have yet another messy retcon that makes Cawl into an even greater Deus Ex Machina who can do anything the Emperor can but better.

Not only would such a retcon and headswap be messy but also really lazy and will reek of a cash grab. It's the sort of nonsense an amateur would to pull. As I said, it's an inelegant solution to a problem when there are better and less messy alternatives.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:47:16


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


kirotheavenger wrote:Oh so you were deliberately twisting what I've said, gotcha.
Which bit?
Battle Sister as in the female equivalent to Battle Brother.
But it's not, no more so than GuardMAN is the equivalent of Battle Sister.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wouldn't it be better then to just add Chapter Serfs to Space Marines, instead of reinventing the wheel and causing a fuss?
FSM seems like a really inelegant solution when there are more effective ways of going about it.
Wouldn't Chapter serfs be even more like "reinventing the wheel"? After all, that's a whole load of new models you need to make, new units, new designs, new rules. Actually, I suppose it's not "reinventing the wheel", it's more like "inventing a hand glider".

As opposed to a headswap and "Cawl invented a new way to make women using the Sangprimus Portum"? That one seems so much simpler and effective.


It's reinventing the wheel because you have to fiddle with the fluff even more and risk the same level of uproar (perhaps even greater) as the Primaris release. People are still aggravated over that, and it's been, what, 2 years?
Aggravated? But usually the people who are aggravated are the same people who say that the lore "is because it is"?

I apologise if I'm using your point to make another one, but you're emphasising just how utterly arbitrary this worship of the lore is for some people. Sometimes, the lore is sacred and perfect and right, and other times, it's a source of "aggravation"?
Chapter Serfs already exist in the fluff. I would much rather an existing element of the fluff gets developed and receive models than have yet another messy retcon that makes Cawl into an even greater Deus Ex Machina who can do anything the Emperor can but better.
Well, the Emperor didn't do it in the first place, for a start. Second, as we've addressed, the fluff isn't exactly rigid.

Not only would such a retcon and headswap be messy but also really lazy and will reek of a cash grab.
And any Space Marine update wouldn't?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:52:20


Post by: Vatsetis


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:Im a little curious, why would they want to add female space marines, lore wise?

Each chapter as far as i recall is made up by like 1000 space marines. Given how small chapters are, and the fact there are millions if not billions of world under imperial rule, why the living feth would you need to research how to make females to fill your ranks with females when the losses you take should easily be filled with men alone?
Because many of those billions of worlds aren't Astartes homeworlds or recruitment centres. Most worlds aren't, in fact.

Space Marines typically recruit from one system, maybe a small fiefdom if they're lucky or influential. Of that significantly smaller proportion, they're recruiting from usually lower populations than the rest of the Imperium (many Astartes recruitment bases are from low population worlds - feudal and death worlds are more common recruitment locations than hive worlds). Then of that population, you're only recruiting from the adolescent age bracket, and then whatever trials you have in store (and, side note, many of these trials aren't based on physical ability alone - most of them seem more about mental fortitude and resilience than anything physical). From what I understand, these trials are difficult enough to weed out a lot of the potential aspirants, and complications in the actual surgeries could kill off more recruits.

So why on earth does the Imperium want to cut that recruitment pool in half? Aren't they about trying to be winning this war?

Plus, if the Imperium were so adept at filling up their Chapters, why are we nearly always told how there's never enough Space Marines, and that the Imperium is constantly on the back foot?


Actually the scenario you have descrided goes against the introduction of FSM... If the recruitment grounds for Astartes were so limited, sacrificing 20 young fertile female teens to get a single Astarte will quickly deplete the recruitment population.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 12:56:57


Post by: pothocboots


 the_scotsman wrote:
There are, canonically, male
-Female Chaos Space Marines (even if they have to adhere to the same bs fake science 'cant survive the initiation process' or whatever, chaos adds horns and tentacles and bat wings and turns space marines into big blobs of gibbering goop, you bet your ass there are female chaos space marines)


I really like this particular item. It speaks to me that the Imperium would be regressive and sexist in their operations. Stagnant and unwilling to change or even perceive the need to change. (I think the Imperium is at their best when they are at their worst).

And that Chaos Legions and Warbands are the ones that can be inclusive. They're the ones that see the utility in not hamstringing themselves to half the population.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 13:03:39


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Vatsetis wrote:Actually the scenario you have descrided goes against the introduction of FSM... If the recruitment grounds for Astartes were so limited, sacrificing 20 young fertile female teens to get a single Astarte will quickly deplete the recruitment population.
But they're not fertile. They're adolescents. Children.

Also, if we're complaining about "sacrificing fertile teens" (which just sounds gross), why aren't you complaining about the Imperial Guard?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 13:06:15


Post by: Cybtroll


It may be critized for including female only in the self-indulgent, villain of the week faction...

But will be better than the current status and for sure can create an interesting narrative with the non-secondary advantage of showing the Imperium as worse than Chaos and shift attention away from Marine to Chaos Marine anyway so I would be all for it.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 13:11:57


Post by: H.B.M.C.


pothocboots wrote:
It speaks to me that the Imperium would be regressive and sexist in their operations.
But they're not. They are decidedly and demonstrably not.

The Imperium doesn't care about what's between your legs (with the exception of two specific institutions - Marines and Sisters) nor the colour of your skin. Beyond that they only care that you are human, not a mutant, not a psyker, and not a traitor.

The Imperium aren't male supremacists. They're human supremacists.

 the_scotsman wrote:
and what has no reason to not exist canonically:
No reason hey? If there were no reasons, then this wouldn't be a discussion. Something tells me you know this already.




How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 13:20:45


Post by: Tiberias


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Tiberias wrote:Oh boy the irony. First off I respected your position that you don't care about lore consistency and continuity, not that you apply double standards in your arguments.
So when I then emphasise my argument isn't based on continuity, you call me intellectually dishonest? Which one is it?
So let me get this straight: arguing for sisters of battle to be also male is something different because in that army you can play male priests of the ecclesiarchy? But for female space marines it is a different story because there is no model for a female fleet admiral or chapter serf?
When did I say that?

I said that Sisters of Battle already have male members, but that I'm fine adding more. However, I was pointing out that your claim that Space Marines have women already in them is disingenuous, because Chapter serfs don't exist on the tabletop, let alone women ones.
Making both Space Marines and Sororitas mixed gender is fine. But pretending like they're both mixed gender already is a blatant lie.

The issue with primaris lore is not when something becomes "established" lore, but how abruptly and for what reason it was changed and how big of an impact it is.
But now it *is* lore. It shouldn't matter how abrupt it is, the moment it's lore, is it not "lore"?
Suddenly there was technological advancement in the imperium because GW wanted to sell shiny new toys, which contradicted decades of lore that depicted the imperium as technologically regressive, which in turn was arguably a big part of the "grimdark" setting. That is what many people had a problem with.
But that was lore. The moment it was printed, it had become "established lore". That's how lore works - it changes on GW's whims.

All I'm saying is that if the lore is so sacred, and that GW's lore and canon shouldn't be criticised because "it is, so it is" (which has been an overwhelming defence of the exclusion of women Astartes), then surely the moment Primaris were announced as "canon", people should just have accept that as "established lore".


Boy do you like misrepresenting other peoples posts, don't you? The point is not that it's not established lore, but that it's not good lore based on the context of the already existing setting/lore. If GW suddenly introduced pokemon into 40k, it would also be established lore as soon as they publish it....it would also be rubbish.
And I call you intellectually dishonest because when I asked why not advocate for male sisters of battle, you said that's different because there are already males in a sisters army (i assume you mean ecclesiarchy priests and such). Which is entirely besides the point, since there can also be human female auxillary warriors/soldiers in a space marine force.

I also still haven't gotten a clear answer as to what problem exactly we are adressing when introducing female marines.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 13:29:09


Post by: kirotheavenger


It'd be nice to see some women in the villains rather than only ever the dashing hero[in]es.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 13:36:35


Post by: Tiberias


 kirotheavenger wrote:
It'd be nice to see some women in the villains rather than only ever the dashing hero[in]es.


Huh? There are no heroes/heroines in 40k, just varying levels of evil. The marines a psychoindoctrinated child soldiers used as terror units. The sisters are religious fanatics who burn guilty and innocent alike. Individuals within those factions can be heroic or perfom heroic actions, but there are not good guys in 40k. One can argue that chaos is even worse than the imperium...some might even argue it's the other way around and both positions would be tenable.

Dark eldar probably have the most equality between the sexes in 40k, everyone who is ambitious enough can become extremely powerful...they are also arguably the most evil faction in 40k, so look no further than them. Heck, even the sisters can be considered evil based on their preference to burn innocents and heretics alike without consideration.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 13:39:51


Post by: kirotheavenger


Recently 40k very much has good guys and bad guys.
Girlyman is definitely marketed as the good guy, Ultramarines vs Deathguard or whatever is definitely marketed as good vs evil.

Although that's kinda besides the point. My comment was more in regards to the world in general. Evil faceless mooks slaughtered by the dozens in Hollywood movies are always male. But no one minds that, we just need female leads that beat everyone else up.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 13:57:35


Post by: Iron_Captain


 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
and what has no reason to not exist canonically:
No reason hey? If there were no reasons, then this wouldn't be a discussion. Something tells me you know this already.



To be honest I am still not entirely seeing the reasons. Now I haven't really read all of the recent threads so maybe that is my fault, but then perhaps someone can enlighten me.
The way I'm seeing things GW has already been trying to improve female representation and there are other, more logical factions than Space Marines that could use more female representation (what about female guard or Custodes?). So "increasing female representation" can't really be the only reason.

The other reason I have heard basically amounts to "but I don't want to play as Sisters of Battle, female guard or [insert female-inclusive faction here], I want to play as female Space Marines." To be quite frank, I don't think that is a good reason. Firstly, you can already play as female Space Marines. There is no one stopping you from just giving your Space Marines all helmets and/or female heads and calling them female. Secondly, I want a plastic Squiggoth, units of Meganobz on wartrikes, updated Imperial Guard models and more plastic regiments that aren't Cadians and a whole lot more stuff. But imho, "I want it" is on its own not necessarily a compelling reason for why these things should be added. We all have our wishlists of stuff we want to see GW do. But GW simply can't accommodate the wishes of everyone. And especially with a somewhat controversial topic like female Space Marines where it is clear that most people don't like this idea, the merits of GW doing this just because a vocal minority wants it to be done are questionable.

Either way, those are my reasons for not wanting female Space Marines. I am not vehemently opposed to the idea, but given that most people wouldn't like this change and that I have heard no compelling reasons why female Space Marines have to be added, I just think the change wouldn't be worth the hassle and uproar we'd likely get. That, and I can't think of a good inclusive replacement for the term "battle-brothers". "battle-persons?", "battle-people?" "battle-comrades?" None of that alliterates!
Imho, it is better to leave the Space Marines alone and focus more on diversifying other factions.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 14:01:53


Post by: Strg Alt


So the sister thread to this one has already been deleted? What a surprise!


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 14:02:47


Post by: Gert


It got moved to the Background forum not deleted.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 14:03:49


Post by: Tiberias


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Recently 40k very much has good guys and bad guys.
Girlyman is definitely marketed as the good guy, Ultramarines vs Deathguard or whatever is definitely marketed as good vs evil.

Although that's kinda besides the point. My comment was more in regards to the world in general. Evil faceless mooks slaughtered by the dozens in Hollywood movies are always male. But no one minds that, we just need female leads that beat everyone else up.


The point about Guilliman is fair of course, but I would argue that when you think about it, there is still at least a bit of nuance there. Guilliman might be a good guy compared to the current imperium because he is a relic of a bygone age, but he is still a genocidal warlord. There is really no denying that fact.
This now is just my personal opinion, but I think Guilliman serves as a nice contrast to illustrate how stupid and evil the imperium really is. When even said genocidal warlod from the crusade era is horryfied by current practices in the imperium, it doesn't paint that faction in a good light imo. The only question is whether chaos is even more evil than the imperium and as I said both positions are tenable.....tyranids are objectively worse though, being eaten alive by disgusting gribblies can't be nice.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 14:34:59


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
kirotheavenger wrote:Oh so you were deliberately twisting what I've said, gotcha.
Which bit?
Battle Sister as in the female equivalent to Battle Brother.
But it's not, no more so than GuardMAN is the equivalent of Battle Sister.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Wouldn't it be better then to just add Chapter Serfs to Space Marines, instead of reinventing the wheel and causing a fuss?
FSM seems like a really inelegant solution when there are more effective ways of going about it.
Wouldn't Chapter serfs be even more like "reinventing the wheel"? After all, that's a whole load of new models you need to make, new units, new designs, new rules. Actually, I suppose it's not "reinventing the wheel", it's more like "inventing a hand glider".

As opposed to a headswap and "Cawl invented a new way to make women using the Sangprimus Portum"? That one seems so much simpler and effective.


It's reinventing the wheel because you have to fiddle with the fluff even more and risk the same level of uproar (perhaps even greater) as the Primaris release. People are still aggravated over that, and it's been, what, 2 years?
Aggravated? But usually the people who are aggravated are the same people who say that the lore "is because it is"?

I apologise if I'm using your point to make another one, but you're emphasising just how utterly arbitrary this worship of the lore is for some people. Sometimes, the lore is sacred and perfect and right, and other times, it's a source of "aggravation"?
Chapter Serfs already exist in the fluff. I would much rather an existing element of the fluff gets developed and receive models than have yet another messy retcon that makes Cawl into an even greater Deus Ex Machina who can do anything the Emperor can but better.
Well, the Emperor didn't do it in the first place, for a start. Second, as we've addressed, the fluff isn't exactly rigid.

Not only would such a retcon and headswap be messy but also really lazy and will reek of a cash grab.
And any Space Marine update wouldn't?


It's as if people who really like the setting as is don't like it when retcons happen. You saw it happen with the Necrons and you saw it happen with Warhammer Fantasy. They spent time in money on a hobby they love, of course they are going to have a negative reaction when something drastic happens; to them its becoming less of what they invested it.
It's like that old thought experiment, the Ship of Theseus; if you keep changing parts of the ship, are you left with the same ship? Same idea with the setting, if you keep changing parts of it, are you left with the same setting? A lot of people don't think so.

Just because GW could change the fluff, doesn't necessarily mean they should. Would you be fine with the the fluff if, after a rigorous night of peyote abuse, they decided to make every faction a squig? That would cause quite a stir, wouldn't it?

I dare say that there is a great disparity in creative effort between fleshing out an established concept and creating an entire miniature line, and changing a couple of lines and introducing headswaps. The latter is no different from yet another Primaris Lieutenant, the former is actually interesting. And this is coming from someone who really doesn't like Marines getting the lions shares of releases, and would rather see them update Imperial Guard and Eldar. Though technically a Chapter Serf update wouldn't be "Marine" update, but that's splitting hairs.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 14:47:26


Post by: Cybtroll


So, let me get this straight: including Female Marine is something that, in your mind, can be compared to change every single being in the galaxy into a Squig?

Or instead where you sarcastic, voluntarily exaggerated or simply do you have some time (yours and ours) to waste writing stuff that doesn't make sense?

Should we take you seriously? But more importantly, do you expect to be taken seriously after this kind of comments?

BTW, I'm one of those lost to GW (at least about Fantasy) after the nuking of the Old Word. But I can see the difference between Female Marine, Primaris and the End Times. As said, it's all a matter of how, rather than what.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 14:53:45


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Cybtroll wrote:
So, let me get this straight: including Female Marine is something that, in your mind, can be compared to change every single being in the galaxy into a Squig?

Or instead where you sarcastic, voluntarily exaggerated or simply do you have some time (yours and ours) to waste writing stuff that doesn't make sense?

Should we take you seriously? But more importantly, do you expect to be taken seriously after this kind of comments?

BTW, I'm one of those lost to GW (at least about Fantasy) after the nuking of the Old Word. But I can see the difference between Female Marine, Primaris and the End Times. As said, it's all a matter of how, rather than what.


It's more of a hyperbolic rebuke of the idea that since it can be changed, it should be changed. I do not agree with that idea.
To you it may not seem like a big deal and a little thing. To others it is a big deal because it's a little change that adds up to a bunch of other little changes.

Perhaps it doesn't make sense to you because you didn't understand? Should I take you seriously because you didn't understand?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 14:57:52


Post by: Deadnight


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Just because GW could change the fluff, doesn't necessarily mean they should.


Likewise just because gw could keep things exactly the same, doesn't mean they should either.

Imo if 40k was conceived today, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Building a bigger table for the community doesn't cost me anything, even if it's something I hypothetically never want to include in my army. 'No girls allowed' is fun when youre 8, but all my best friends are female. *shrug*

And anyway, Personally I see a lot of cool historical/fantasy/mythical/fictional characters and themes that can now be marinified as well.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 15:01:35


Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


My opinion? Dont change marines. They're established and well defined in the fluff and tabletop models.

We have sisters of Silence, sisters of battle and new guardsmen (and eldar/dark eldar) showing some great representation. But instead of female Space Marines which just would need significant background rewrite, and feel shoe horned in I'd love to see that energy and effort on expanding the other lines/newer things.

Hell we now have a bad ass highlord model and she kicks serious arse on the tabletop whilst being as you'd expect from a highlord in fluff, unrepentantly a bit of a dick.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 15:02:56


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Deadnight wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Just because GW could change the fluff, doesn't necessarily mean they should.


Likewise just because gw could keep things exactly the same, doesn't mean they should either.

Imo if 40k was conceived today, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Building a bigger table for the community doesn't cost me anything, even if it's something I hypothetically never want to include in my army. 'No girls allowed' is fun when youre 8, but all my best friends are female. *shrug*

And anyway, Personally I see a lot of cool historical/fantasy/mythical/fictional characters and themes that can now be marinified as well.

There's no guarantee nor evidence to show that doing this would attract women to the hobby. It's almost as if there's other factors at play that's being a barrier to entry.
Price comes to mind.
If they don't want to collect marines because of the lack of FSM, is that truly a bad thing? Don't we want other factions to have more players, instead of marines all of the time?
If none of the factions, even those that overtly have women in them, are attractive to prospective women hobbyists, what makes you think FSM would suddenly make them interested? It doesn't make sense to me that a woman, after perusing the hobby's catalogue, would suddenly change her mind because of a head swap.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 15:06:32


Post by: Sledgehammer


Deadnight wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Just because GW could change the fluff, doesn't necessarily mean they should.


Likewise just because gw could keep things exactly the same, doesn't mean they should either.

Imo if 40k was conceived today, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

Building a bigger table for the community doesn't cost me anything, even if it's something I hypothetically never want to include in my army. 'No girls allowed' is fun when youre 8, but all my best friends are female. *shrug*

And anyway, Personally I see a lot of cool historical/fantasy/mythical/fictional characters and themes that can now be marinified as well.
But it wasn't conceived today, and there are people invested in the universe with its setting, themes and characters. And no one said "no girls allowed in 40k". You're asking to undermine the basic idea of fraternal militant orders of crusading space knights. Kinda like how men should not be allowed into the sisters of battle.

Representation is important, but you can do that without depriving others of a fantasy or idea. There are plenty of avenues for new and expanded factions and characters. You just want this one hyper specific thing.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 15:18:09


Post by: Cybtroll


No I understand you perfectly. Probably better than you imagine.

Stratagem n°1 - Enlarging
To take the adversary proposition outside its natural limits, interpreting it in the widest possible way and extremizing it; while narrowing down our own affirmation in the strictest limits, because the wider a proposition is, the more vulnerable it is.
Arthur Schopenhauer, "The Art of Being Right", 1831.


(Translation mine, don't have the English version).
So, we all understood it from at least a couple of centuries ago. You're much less imaginative that what you seem to believe.

And, on an incidental note, I think everyone who want to debate online should read it, it's 44 pages long, so half of a Codex, but incommensurately more useful (and I'm pretty sure should be available online for free).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On an unrelated note: if your "being invested" in something is due to exclusion/opposition to someone else (a real one, not a fictional one) maybe you are not really invested in the setting, but only in your misinterpretation of the setting.

In the end, people think the Imperium is good right? Can't you simply be wrong in your interpretation of Marine? None is infallible.
That's why between a restriction and a non-mandatory options, the second one is always the best.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 15:26:35


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Funnily enough, the idea that the Imperium is good is in itself a misinterpretation of the setting.

What real people are being excluded? Surely you don't mean to say that real women are being excluded from the hobby because of a lack of FSM? Considering how there are other factions in the game and other mitigating factors, that seems like a gross simplification of a complex issue and also a rather marine-centric view.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 15:29:33


Post by: Sledgehammer


 Cybtroll wrote:
No I understand you perfectly. Probably better than you imagine.

Stratagem n°1 - Enlarging
To take the adversary proposition outside its natural limits, interpreting it in the widest possible way and extremizing it; while narrowing down our own affirmation in the strictest limits, because the wider a proposition is, the more vulnerable it is.
Arthur Schopenhauer, "The Art of Being Right", 1831.


(Translation mine, don't have the English version).
So, we all understood it from at least a couple of centuries ago. You're much less imaginative that what you seem to believe.

And, on an incidental note, I think everyone who want to debate online should read it, it's 44 pages long, so half of a Codex, but incommensurately more useful (and I'm pretty sure should be available online for free).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On an unrelated note: if your "being invested" in something is due to exclusion/opposition to someone else (a real one, not a fictional one) maybe you are not really invested in the setting, but only in your misinterpretation of the setting.

In the end, people think the Imperium is good right? Can't you simply be wrong in your interpretation of Marine? None is infallible.
That's why between a restriction and a non-mandatory options, the second one is always the best.
Marines being fraternal brotherhoods of space knights is literally what space marines are and have been for 20+ years. Are you really trying to argue otherwise and suggest that I'M the one who doesn't understand the setting?

The sexism accusation is also unfounded, and frankly insulting. My argument has been from a thematic and lore based perspective this entire time.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 15:33:09


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Cybtroll wrote:
No I understand you perfectly. Probably better than you imagine.

Stratagem n°1 - Enlarging
To take the adversary proposition outside its natural limits, interpreting it in the widest possible way and extremizing it; while narrowing down our own affirmation in the strictest limits, because the wider a proposition is, the more vulnerable it is.
Arthur Schopenhauer, "The Art of Being Right", 1831.


(Translation mine, don't have the English version).
So, we all understood it from at least a couple of centuries ago. You're much less imaginative that what you seem to believe.

And, on an incidental note, I think everyone who want to debate online should read it, it's 44 pages long, so half of a Codex, but incommensurately more useful (and I'm pretty sure should be available online for free).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On an unrelated note: if your "being invested" in something is due to exclusion/opposition to someone else (a real one, not a fictional one) maybe you are not really invested in the setting, but only in your misinterpretation of the setting.

In the end, people think the Imperium is good right? Can't you simply be wrong in your interpretation of Marine? None is infallible.
That's why between a restriction and a non-mandatory options, the second one is always the best.
Marines being fraternal brotherhoods of space knights is literally what space marines are and have been for 20+ years. Are you really trying to argue otherwise and suggest that I'M the one who doesn't understand the setting?

The sexism accusation is also unfounded, and frankly insulting. My argument has been from a thematic and lore based perspective this entire time.

I do believe he was referring to me, good sir.
And yes, the sexism accusation is unfounded, as if I have an ulterior motive in not wanting FSM.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 15:57:29


Post by: G00fySmiley


Tiberias wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Recently 40k very much has good guys and bad guys.
Girlyman is definitely marketed as the good guy, Ultramarines vs Deathguard or whatever is definitely marketed as good vs evil.

Although that's kinda besides the point. My comment was more in regards to the world in general. Evil faceless mooks slaughtered by the dozens in Hollywood movies are always male. But no one minds that, we just need female leads that beat everyone else up.


The point about Guilliman is fair of course, but I would argue that when you think about it, there is still at least a bit of nuance there. Guilliman might be a good guy compared to the current imperium because he is a relic of a bygone age, but he is still a genocidal warlord. There is really no denying that fact.
This now is just my personal opinion, but I think Guilliman serves as a nice contrast to illustrate how stupid and evil the imperium really is. When even said genocidal warlod from the crusade era is horryfied by current practices in the imperium, it doesn't paint that faction in a good light imo. The only question is whether chaos is even more evil than the imperium and as I said both positions are tenable.....tyranids are objectively worse though, being eaten alive by disgusting gribblies can't be nice.


honestly I think Tyranids and Orks are the closes to the good guys in the story. orks are orks and just love war because it was what they were designed for they are basically sci fi soccer hoolagins looking for a good time. meanwhile Tyranids are just hungry and all biomass they see as thier food. They look at a humanoid and a tomato the same way.,


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 15:58:41


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 G00fySmiley wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Recently 40k very much has good guys and bad guys.
Girlyman is definitely marketed as the good guy, Ultramarines vs Deathguard or whatever is definitely marketed as good vs evil.

Although that's kinda besides the point. My comment was more in regards to the world in general. Evil faceless mooks slaughtered by the dozens in Hollywood movies are always male. But no one minds that, we just need female leads that beat everyone else up.


The point about Guilliman is fair of course, but I would argue that when you think about it, there is still at least a bit of nuance there. Guilliman might be a good guy compared to the current imperium because he is a relic of a bygone age, but he is still a genocidal warlord. There is really no denying that fact.
This now is just my personal opinion, but I think Guilliman serves as a nice contrast to illustrate how stupid and evil the imperium really is. When even said genocidal warlod from the crusade era is horryfied by current practices in the imperium, it doesn't paint that faction in a good light imo. The only question is whether chaos is even more evil than the imperium and as I said both positions are tenable.....tyranids are objectively worse though, being eaten alive by disgusting gribblies can't be nice.


honestly I think Tyranids and Orks are the closes to the good guys in the story. orks are orks and just love war because it was what they were designed for they are basically sci fi soccer hoolagins looking for a good time. meanwhile Tyranids are just hungry and all biomass they see as thier food. They look at a humanoid and a tomato the same way.,

That's not really good though. That's more neutral, in the same way that a natural disaster isn't evil but will still ruin your day.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:02:42


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


I feel like the people who argue for FSM are the same people that ruined Star Wars. It is fine to want female representation, it is fine to want more female models and representation and it is most definitely fine to want the ability to make your minis YOUR minis. What is not fine is to change a fundamental aspect of a setting that is older than most of the people wanting to change it just because of their current social sensibilities.

The Imperium of Man has been represented as a villain in the setting since the beginning to anyone that has payed even remote attention to it. It is a theocratic oppressive system that primarily focus on an unending war machine with little use for anything other than efficiency. Humanity are NOT the "good guys" nor is any other faction in the game because a rather fundamental aspect of the lore is that there are no winners in war. The idea that a oppressive regime would have role definition based on sex is not exactly a revelatory idea.

If your ultimate desire is to completely rewrite the fundamentals of a setting then why on earth don't you just create another setting? Disney did the same thing to Star Wars by trying to rewrite everything from themes to characters in such a way that it was just disappointing to established fans of the series. I would have disliked the new trilogy a whole lot less if they hadn't married it to the existing story line of the past six movies then spent three movies trying to rewrite and re-imagine that past six movies.

I am not a hater of Primaris Marines because I see them for what they are, a scheme to make Space Marine players buy an entire new army. Hell, I am guilty because I restarted my Black Templars as pure Primaris. The lore is shallow and kind of a joke but at least it doesn't try to change what a Space Marine is as their base level.

To answer the question of posed at the beginning of the thread, just put more resources into Sisters of Battle. Sisters of Battle are the female equivalent of Space Marines as far as game play goes and asking for female space marines is akin to asking why Ultramarines can't take Daemon Engines.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:04:27


Post by: Rihgu


I feel like the people who argue for FSM are the same people that ruined Star Wars

Star Wars is ruined? Somebody should tell Disney, so that they can stop profiting off of the IP.

asking for female space marines is akin to asking why Ultramarines can't take Daemon Engines.

This is also a valid question, though. A group of Ultramarines can go renegade and have/meet a warpsmith and sorcerer who can craft Daemon Engines. They'd still use Ultramarines tactics/equipment (Codex: Space Marines) but have some Chaos stuff.
This is why Open Play is good, you can actually play the fluff they spent so much time building.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:18:56


Post by: Crimson


Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I feel like the people who argue for FSM are the same people that ruined Star Wars.

No, unfortunately I am not George Lucas.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:21:32


Post by: G00fySmiley


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Recently 40k very much has good guys and bad guys.
Girlyman is definitely marketed as the good guy, Ultramarines vs Deathguard or whatever is definitely marketed as good vs evil.

Although that's kinda besides the point. My comment was more in regards to the world in general. Evil faceless mooks slaughtered by the dozens in Hollywood movies are always male. But no one minds that, we just need female leads that beat everyone else up.


The point about Guilliman is fair of course, but I would argue that when you think about it, there is still at least a bit of nuance there. Guilliman might be a good guy compared to the current imperium because he is a relic of a bygone age, but he is still a genocidal warlord. There is really no denying that fact.
This now is just my personal opinion, but I think Guilliman serves as a nice contrast to illustrate how stupid and evil the imperium really is. When even said genocidal warlod from the crusade era is horryfied by current practices in the imperium, it doesn't paint that faction in a good light imo. The only question is whether chaos is even more evil than the imperium and as I said both positions are tenable.....tyranids are objectively worse though, being eaten alive by disgusting gribblies can't be nice.


honestly I think Tyranids and Orks are the closes to the good guys in the story. orks are orks and just love war because it was what they were designed for they are basically sci fi soccer hoolagins looking for a good time. meanwhile Tyranids are just hungry and all biomass they see as thier food. They look at a humanoid and a tomato the same way.,

That's not really good though. That's more neutral, in the same way that a natural disaster isn't evil but will still ruin your day.


i am more looking at the relativistic good than actually really making the universe a better place. though given how bad the 40k univers is ultimatly if the tyranids win and things can start over mayeb that is for the best.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:22:42


Post by: Tiberias


Rihgu wrote:
I feel like the people who argue for FSM are the same people that ruined Star Wars

Star Wars is ruined? Somebody should tell Disney, so that they can stop profiting off of the IP.

asking for female space marines is akin to asking why Ultramarines can't take Daemon Engines.

This is also a valid question, though. A group of Ultramarines can go renegade and have/meet a warpsmith and sorcerer who can craft Daemon Engines. They'd still use Ultramarines tactics/equipment (Codex: Space Marines) but have some Chaos stuff.
This is why Open Play is good, you can actually play the fluff they spent so much time building.


That's some mental gymnastics if I've ever seen some. Ultramarines going chaos wouldn't be Ultramarines anymore in the sense that they don't belong to the chapter any more that absolutely won't use demon engines.

Also the newest 3 star wars movies were absolutely horrendous and were poorly recieved by fans.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:24:26


Post by: Galas


Why "The Imperium is evil" needs to mean that they are sexist? They aren't racist agains humans either. Sexism is bad of course but jut saying "they are evil so they do all things we consider evil" doesnt make any sense for any fantasy or scifi universe.

The Imperiun of Man has never been shown to discriminate humans for their skin colour or sex. And when they do, is always painted as individuals acting by their own accord. Even seggregated imperial guard regiments are less sexist and more organizatinal in nature, because everything needs to be compartimented.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:24:31


Post by: Catulle



And they say the community has issues with its attitude to women...

I swear I have *no idea* where that misconception might come from!


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:26:28


Post by: the_scotsman


 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
and what has no reason to not exist canonically:
No reason hey? If there were no reasons, then this wouldn't be a discussion. Something tells me you know this already.




yeah, there is no in-lore reason why there are no female chaos marines, or female custodes. We've never actually SEEN an in-canon female chaos space marine or Custode, but that's...kind of the standard, when it comes to 40k. For years we didnt actually know that there were female guardsmen, or female tau soldiers, or female new conscious personality-having necrons, or female imperial knights, or female GSC. They tend to appear or get mentioned in the lore somewhere eventually, and then possibly, maybe show up in models somewhere down the line.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:26:46


Post by: Galas


I'll also say that more than one woman would do a little more than raising an eyebrown with the arguments some people are using in this debate.


"Adding women to a all male army is equivalent to making everyone in the galaxy a squig/having loyalist using demon possessed vehicles"


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:27:19


Post by: Rihgu


Tiberias wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
I feel like the people who argue for FSM are the same people that ruined Star Wars

Star Wars is ruined? Somebody should tell Disney, so that they can stop profiting off of the IP.

asking for female space marines is akin to asking why Ultramarines can't take Daemon Engines.

This is also a valid question, though. A group of Ultramarines can go renegade and have/meet a warpsmith and sorcerer who can craft Daemon Engines. They'd still use Ultramarines tactics/equipment (Codex: Space Marines) but have some Chaos stuff.
This is why Open Play is good, you can actually play the fluff they spent so much time building.


That's some mental gymnastics if I've ever seen some. Ultramarines going chaos wouldn't be Ultramarines anymore in the sense that they don't belong to the chapter any more that absolutely won't use demon engines.

Also the newest 3 star wars movies were absolutely horrendous and were poorly recieved by fans.


So they would instantly forget all of their training and throw away all of their weapons? Which Legion Tactics would they use? Iron Warriors? Black Legion? Where would they have learned these tactics? Do Ultramarines routinely train their Space Marines in enemy tactics (this might actually be the case, thinking about it, but I don't see why they'd suddenly start using said tactics)?

And people say the lore matters!


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:29:28


Post by: the_scotsman


 Galas wrote:
Why "The Imperium is evil" needs to mean that they are sexist? They aren't racist agains humans either. Sexism is bad of course but jut saying "they are evil so they do all things we consider evil" doesnt make any sense for any fantasy or scifi universe.

The Imperiun of Man has never been shown to discriminate humans for their skin colour or sex. And when they do, is always painted as individuals acting by their own accord. Even seggregated imperial guard regiments are less sexist and more organizatinal in nature, because everything needs to be compartimented.


Yeah, after all they did just add in a new High Lady of Terra. Not a lot of room for a sex-based glass ceiling there.

Even the Imperial Knights, who are hard-coded mentally to adhere to a freaking feudal system by their magic robot chairs, aren't old-fashioned enough by the standards of the imperium to discriminate by sex. The time gap between our modern world and the imperium is the same time gap between us and cavemen.

The Emperor Himself is just about the only living human in the 40k setting who it would possibly make sense to portray as sexist. His ideas might actually be tens of thousands of years out of date.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:29:35


Post by: G00fySmiley


Tiberias wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
I feel like the people who argue for FSM are the same people that ruined Star Wars

Star Wars is ruined? Somebody should tell Disney, so that they can stop profiting off of the IP.

asking for female space marines is akin to asking why Ultramarines can't take Daemon Engines.

This is also a valid question, though. A group of Ultramarines can go renegade and have/meet a warpsmith and sorcerer who can craft Daemon Engines. They'd still use Ultramarines tactics/equipment (Codex: Space Marines) but have some Chaos stuff.
This is why Open Play is good, you can actually play the fluff they spent so much time building.


That's some mental gymnastics if I've ever seen some. Ultramarines going chaos wouldn't be Ultramarines anymore in the sense that they don't belong to the chapter any more that absolutely won't use demon engines.

Also the newest 3 star wars movies were absolutely horrendous and were poorly recieved by fans.


poorly received by some fans, personally i liked them and they made a ton of $. I would have preferred something like the rogue squadron books being adapted to screen, but alas we got what we got which was imo slightly above average scifi so i'll take it


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:31:13


Post by: Crimson


So the pic of the female marine I posted on the first page of this thread. Remember how I said couldn't post it in FB's largest (maybe largest, not sure) Space Marine group as it would get swarmed with hate and moderator would delete it. I did actually post it there yesterday evening, and I was positively surprised how few negative comments there were. There were some, but nothing terrible and the pic received about 200 likes. The moderator deleted it nevertheless.



How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 16:32:11


Post by: the_scotsman


 Galas wrote:

"Adding women to a all male army is equivalent to making everyone in the galaxy a squig/having loyalist using demon possessed vehicles"


Everyone in the 41st millennium has been replaced by squigs without their knowledge. The only trace of the great squigification is that squig biology couldn't quite perfectly replicate the human form - the heads and hands were a litttle too big, torsos a little too round, legs too thick and arms too short.

luckily ork squigologists have been perfecting 'umie squigs over the years to combat this and they're steadily getting better, but those ding dang eldasquigs are just so hard to get right, so they make up some bs about them wearing cone hats to disguise the big giant squig heads.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 17:01:00


Post by: moreorless


Tiberias wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Recently 40k very much has good guys and bad guys.
Girlyman is definitely marketed as the good guy, Ultramarines vs Deathguard or whatever is definitely marketed as good vs evil.

Although that's kinda besides the point. My comment was more in regards to the world in general. Evil faceless mooks slaughtered by the dozens in Hollywood movies are always male. But no one minds that, we just need female leads that beat everyone else up.


The point about Guilliman is fair of course, but I would argue that when you think about it, there is still at least a bit of nuance there. Guilliman might be a good guy compared to the current imperium because he is a relic of a bygone age, but he is still a genocidal warlord. There is really no denying that fact.
This now is just my personal opinion, but I think Guilliman serves as a nice contrast to illustrate how stupid and evil the imperium really is. When even said genocidal warlod from the crusade era is horryfied by current practices in the imperium, it doesn't paint that faction in a good light imo. The only question is whether chaos is even more evil than the imperium and as I said both positions are tenable.....tyranids are objectively worse though, being eaten alive by disgusting gribblies can't be nice.


I do think though that his introduction and indeed generally the idea of having a continuing narrative in the present rather than just a base setting has tended to cast the Imperium in a better like than previously. I mean back in the 90's I always felt that the Eldar were clearly as close to "good" as you could get in 40K and they did include female units from an early point, the imperium being sexist by comparison didnt really make the setting sexist but was more a reflection of its dystopian feudal nature.

You could argue as well I spose that really a lot of the reason why SM as so popular is people like to play elite "best of the best" armies, not everyone of course but it has I think always been a strong attraction and you could argue the Sisters of Battle don't really have that being more an equivlent to Imperial guard. There does seem room for an "elite enhanced female army" in the lore to me as you already have Callidus Assassins being specifically female as this has advantages. So manybe more of an "Assasin army" based on enhanced women(minus the fan art "sexy killer" image), faster, high skill levels, infiltration abilities but not quite as tough as SM?


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 17:05:52


Post by: Deadnight


CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There's no guarantee nor evidence to show that doing this would attract women to the hobby. It's almost as if there's other factors at play that's being a barrier to entry.
Price comes to mind.
If they don't want to collect marines because of the lack of FSM, is that truly a bad thing? Don't we want other factions to have more players, instead of marines all of the time?
If none of the factions, even those that overtly have women in them, are attractive to prospective women hobbyists, what makes you think FSM would suddenly make them interested? It doesn't make sense to me that a woman, after perusing the hobby's catalogue, would suddenly change her mind because of a head swap.


I'm referring to 'the models', as per the title of the thread, not new members in 'the community', when I said 'no girls allowed'.its funny though that you think I want it in order to get more females through the door, I'll put it down to Internet not conveying meaning very well* - if it happens great, and it's welcome, but I also want it as i think there's great scope for cool models and projects. And frankly, other people want it a lot more than me. Frankly, let them have it. Them having theirs is not costing me anything or coming at my expense. Its not a pie.

*I think greater cultural changes in terms of how we play our games and how the social.dynamics manifest are necessary for that, but this is ot. That said, if more girls were attracted to the hobby in thw first place and better representation made them stay...? Big if, but its a nice idea.

I'd love to have more focus on not-marines but I'm a pragmatic type and 'focus on, and sell marines' is what gw does. They're not going to not-sell marines so they can might-sell an expansion to what they consider a minor product line.

I tend to agree. This is a male dominated hobby. There's larger factors at play as to why this is, and im pretty sure most girls 'nope' out of thr hobby before they get to the part than marines are a boys only club.

Is it a bad thing? I dunno. When marines are thr face of the company and over half the releases and boxes on the shop walls, being told the faction that represents yourself or your 'fantasy in 40k is 'a bit on side' and not that well supported in comparison, its a bit of a kicker really. I mean, marines have this endless possibility in their scopr. They can be anything. Vampires, werewolves, commandos, Greeks, Romans, Mongols, ninjas, guys on fire, but not girls? It's a bit....arbitrary if you ask me. Representation is a good thing. If a 12 year old girl walks by thr shop and sees this bad ass female marine absolutely stomping stuff anf thinks 'yeah,this is cooler than hobbycraft', id be happy and would hope she joins with and stays in our community. A headswap might literally be all it takes.

As for me? Male. Heterosexual. And yet most of my friends are female. growing up, most of the people I've personally admired most have been female. Some of my favourite fictional/video game characters are female. There are some frankly awesome female characters and themes from fiction/myth/fantasy/history that I would love to work with and incorporate into a space marine project.

Sledgehammer wrote:[But it wasn't conceived today, and there are people invested in the universe with its setting, themes and characters. And no one said "no girls allowed in 40k". You're asking to undermine the basic idea of fraternal militant orders of crusading space knights. Kinda like how men should not be allowed into the sisters of battle.

Representation is important, but you can do that without depriving others of a fantasy or idea. There are plenty of avenues for new and expanded factions and characters. You just want this one hyper specific thing.


In fairness you're not wrong. You're not saying 'no girls are allowed in 40k' out loud, but the status quo isn't exactly helping or encouraging either. there's not many hooks or 'ins' bring presented.

Adding females won't make space wolves 'not space wolves' anymore. Plus, shield maidens and valkyries. I'm as invested in this universe themes and characters and stories as anyone else, for over half my life at this point and I'm quite OK with this idea. It's not holy dogma. There is no bitter angry god at the other end of it. I used to be more neutral on the topic, but a few folks showed me a different perspective on it. Change isn't an enemy. Aa the tau say, the one constant in the universe is change. The wise adapt. When it comes to things that would fundamentally change what 40k is, it's replacement of 'eternal war' with 'care bears', mutual understanding and 'friends forever, let's hug!' Girls being recruited to marine chapters, imo, doesn't come close to undermining the setting.

And in fairness, i'm not undermining the idea any more than gw has repeatedly done over the last 40 years. I'm asking to 'expand' on the idea of what space marines are, as gw themselves have done. Crusading space knights is just one interpretation of them. My Raptors laugh at the knight idea and my Minotaurs just want to punch the tin cans because they think knights are silly. this idea of marines as 'knights' has been steadily diluted since the 80s and that was a long time ago, and added to with other identities at the same time. Monk is another one. i actually quite like the Monastic traditions as a theme, and often defend it, and it is, in my mind, pretty cool, and also not incompatible with the idea of female marines. Monastic traditions are hugely varied after all. And mixed gender might be a bit of a modern take on a traditional idea, but is that a bad thing? Space Marines are not based on just one idea. I mean fair enough for dark angels or black templars to have strong knightly themes, but is it anywhere near as strong for space wolves, Raptors, white scars, salamanders, raven guard,iron hands etc?

Representation, as you say, is important. Marines are the flagship product. If anywhere makes sense, ita there. And I'm not depriving anyone of a fantasy, but with respect, that's not something I can say of the 'no fsm' side, even if, as is often the case, there is no malice in their position. If you want all-male marines based on crusading space knights, make them as such. No lore is holding you back and there is no one that will ridicule you or harass you over it. I just think it's nice to return the favour.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 17:13:39


Post by: Tiberias


Rihgu wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
I feel like the people who argue for FSM are the same people that ruined Star Wars

Star Wars is ruined? Somebody should tell Disney, so that they can stop profiting off of the IP.

asking for female space marines is akin to asking why Ultramarines can't take Daemon Engines.

This is also a valid question, though. A group of Ultramarines can go renegade and have/meet a warpsmith and sorcerer who can craft Daemon Engines. They'd still use Ultramarines tactics/equipment (Codex: Space Marines) but have some Chaos stuff.
This is why Open Play is good, you can actually play the fluff they spent so much time building.


That's some mental gymnastics if I've ever seen some. Ultramarines going chaos wouldn't be Ultramarines anymore in the sense that they don't belong to the chapter any more that absolutely won't use demon engines.

Also the newest 3 star wars movies were absolutely horrendous and were poorly recieved by fans.


So they would instantly forget all of their training and throw away all of their weapons? Which Legion Tactics would they use? Iron Warriors? Black Legion? Where would they have learned these tactics? Do Ultramarines routinely train their Space Marines in enemy tactics (this might actually be the case, thinking about it, but I don't see why they'd suddenly start using said tactics)?

And people say the lore matters!


You can not be serious. As if chapter tactics was the main point of the original argument, fething ridiculous. The main point was that GW suddenly introducing Ultramarines as a loyalist chapter that uses demon engines would be beyond stupid.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 17:23:38


Post by: Rihgu


Tiberias wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
I feel like the people who argue for FSM are the same people that ruined Star Wars

Star Wars is ruined? Somebody should tell Disney, so that they can stop profiting off of the IP.

asking for female space marines is akin to asking why Ultramarines can't take Daemon Engines.

This is also a valid question, though. A group of Ultramarines can go renegade and have/meet a warpsmith and sorcerer who can craft Daemon Engines. They'd still use Ultramarines tactics/equipment (Codex: Space Marines) but have some Chaos stuff.
This is why Open Play is good, you can actually play the fluff they spent so much time building.


That's some mental gymnastics if I've ever seen some. Ultramarines going chaos wouldn't be Ultramarines anymore in the sense that they don't belong to the chapter any more that absolutely won't use demon engines.

Also the newest 3 star wars movies were absolutely horrendous and were poorly recieved by fans.


So they would instantly forget all of their training and throw away all of their weapons? Which Legion Tactics would they use? Iron Warriors? Black Legion? Where would they have learned these tactics? Do Ultramarines routinely train their Space Marines in enemy tactics (this might actually be the case, thinking about it, but I don't see why they'd suddenly start using said tactics)?

And people say the lore matters!


You can not be serious. As if chapter tactics was the main point of the original argument, fething ridiculous. The main point was that GW suddenly introducing Ultramarines as a loyalist chapter that uses demon engines would be beyond stupid.


Oh, I didn't get that out of the initial statement. I thought it was just "why can't I build an Ultramarines force with daemon engines?". Apologies, then.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 17:51:51


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Deadnight wrote:

Representation is a good thing. If a 12 year old girl walks by thr shop and sees this bad ass female marine absolutely stomping stuff anf thinks 'yeah,this is cooler than hobbycraft', id be happy and would hope she joins with and stays in our community. A headswap might literally be all it takes.

We already have that though, they are called Sisters of Battle. Headswaps are unnecessary in that respect.



How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 17:58:05


Post by: Deadnight


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Deadnight wrote:

Representation is a good thing. If a 12 year old girl walks by thr shop and sees this bad ass female marine absolutely stomping stuff anf thinks 'yeah,this is cooler than hobbycraft', id be happy and would hope she joins with and stays in our community. A headswap might literally be all it takes.

We already have that though, they are called Sisters of Battle. Headswaps are unnecessary in that respect.



When space marines can be *anything* you can envision, and sisters of battle are kind of typecast in a single note as religious fanatics with a stromg Church theme, a far more limited range and an ugly haircut, I will politely disagree.

Sisters are great, but I think they're more of an 'acquired taste' than the blank slate that is space marines.

When I say headswap I'd like a bit more variety - some cyberpunk and modern cuts would be cool.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 18:05:18


Post by: Cronch


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Deadnight wrote:

Representation is a good thing. If a 12 year old girl walks by thr shop and sees this bad ass female marine absolutely stomping stuff anf thinks 'yeah,this is cooler than hobbycraft', id be happy and would hope she joins with and stays in our community. A headswap might literally be all it takes.

We already have that though, they are called Sisters of Battle. Headswaps are unnecessary in that respect.


Sisters of battle are probably one of the most limited armies in the game as far as creativity goes. They're the fanatical arm of the church, that's it. Marines get to be vampires, furries, Soldier 76 from Overwatch or yellow, Sisters get to be angry nuns or angry nuns in red instead of black. Marines answer to Emperor and (tentatively) the High Lords, SoB are just armed housemaids of whatever screamy old dude is the local under-pope.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 18:09:08


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Deadnight wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Deadnight wrote:

Representation is a good thing. If a 12 year old girl walks by thr shop and sees this bad ass female marine absolutely stomping stuff anf thinks 'yeah,this is cooler than hobbycraft', id be happy and would hope she joins with and stays in our community. A headswap might literally be all it takes.

We already have that though, they are called Sisters of Battle. Headswaps are unnecessary in that respect.



When space marines can be *anything* you can envision, and sisters of battle are kind of typecast in a single note as religious fanatics with a stromg Church theme, a far more limited range and an ugly haircut, I will politely disagree.

Sisters are great, but I think they're more of an 'acquired taste' than the blank slate that is space marines.

When I say headswap I'd like a bit more variety - some cyberpunk and modern cuts would be cool.


You pretty much described a Sister of Battle in your 12 year old girl example though. She isn't going to know the intricacies between a Space Marine and a Sister, she'll just see a powered armor individual kicking arse. In that respect, a Sister of Battle would be sufficient, and would arguably be more effective than a headswap as a Sister of Battle is clearly a woman.
And that's assuming that she's not drawn in by Eldar, who have a more elegant aesthetic and also their fair share of female representation.
I'm sorry, I just don't follow this marine centric view where Marines are the only pull to the hobby. If that were the case no one would bother collecting any other faction.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cronch wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Deadnight wrote:

Representation is a good thing. If a 12 year old girl walks by thr shop and sees this bad ass female marine absolutely stomping stuff anf thinks 'yeah,this is cooler than hobbycraft', id be happy and would hope she joins with and stays in our community. A headswap might literally be all it takes.

We already have that though, they are called Sisters of Battle. Headswaps are unnecessary in that respect.


Sisters of battle are probably one of the most limited armies in the game as far as creativity goes. They're the fanatical arm of the church, that's it. Marines get to be vampires, furries, Soldier 76 from Overwatch or yellow, Sisters get to be angry nuns or angry nuns in red instead of black. Marines answer to Emperor and (tentatively) the High Lords, SoB are just armed housemaids of whatever screamy old dude is the local under-pope.


Marines are a bunch of angry screaming bald men who have an unhealthy obsession with a corpse. See, I can be unfairly reductionist too.
It's a creative hobby and the Sisters have thousands of Orders across the galaxy. GW even made a community article talking about making your own Order.
You bring up Vampire Marines and Viking Marines, but that's limited to a couple of chapters. If you want those you have to play those chapters. How is that blank slate? There is nothing in the core Space Marine codex that allows you make Vampire Marines, you need Blood Angels. That's not a blank slate, that's a predefined template that allows slight variation.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 18:15:53


Post by: Thadin


I don't know if I would consider Space Marines to be a blank slate. They're still heavy with the religious fanatic tones, purge the xenos and heretics rah rah, big armor super soldier. The themes between the two are different, but they're still both the military arms of a terrible, rotting corpse of a backwards facist empire.

Maybe Space Marines are seen as a blank slate by some because, for those of us who have been in the hobby for so long are so damn used to seeing them everywhere. And the relative popularity of 40k as a general idea, with Marines as a poster boy, means that their 'style' can be considered mainstream. But their niche is well, pretty niche.

Heavily indoctrinated super soldiers with religious themes and practices, ancient knighthood dashed in, serving a bloody and brutal regime. That hardly screams blank slate to me.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 18:18:08


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


I shouldn't be surprised that people took the bait and latched onto the first sentence of my post and ignored the other three paragraphs.

Essentially this boils down to two camps.

The first is that lore and setting are important and having some form of structure to the background the game takes place in is important.

Or the lore and setting matter only so far as selling models.

There is no good reason or bad reason to add female space marines but at the end of the day a large part of the reason I like the setting is the dystopian future setting where humanity regressed in many ways back to how we once were because threats larger than the universe itself cause a lot of people to do away with civility in order to meet their goals. A lot like this thread actually.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 18:21:33


Post by: skchsan


Removed - WTF


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 18:24:51


Post by: JNAProductions


Skchsan, you’re wrong. You’re just flat out wrong. People who want women Marines aren’t doing it because we want porn-there’s a whole Internet of that, if that’s what we wanted.

We legitimately think it would help make the game more welcoming, and would be cool modding opportunities, and can easily fit in the lore. If you want to address the arguments, address them on their merits, not with ad hominem.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 18:26:32


Post by: Rihgu


 skchsan wrote:
Removed - WTF


This is not only wrong, it's completely ludicrous. GW is never going to sell pinup models of female space marines even if they made female space marines, so even on that basis your argument doesn't hold up as they'll never be able to play those 3rd party models at GW tourneys anyways.
2%, or 5 people, have voted for "obvious feminine bodies". Even if we want to accredit those 5 people as being perverts who want their spank material on the table (which I don't think they are, but who knows, post if that's true!), that's a minority within a minority.

I explicitly do not want boobs or ass on my toy soldiers. I don't want any of those 3rd party pin up dolls. I don't even want to own a space marine model with a female headswap. I want other people to have the option to do it without getting dogpiled for breaking canon for whatever that is worth.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 18:32:10


Post by: Deadnight


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


You pretty much described a Sister of Battle in your 12 year old girl example though. She isn't going to know the intricacies between a Space Marine and a Sister, she'll just see a powered armor individual kicking arse. In that respect, a Sister of Battle would be sufficient, and would arguably be more effective than a headswap as a Sister of Battle is clearly a woman.
[


Also described a marine.

And when she reads the lore or gets more than a 30 second description from the staff, what happens?

I just think it's a bit dismissive and maybe even a bit condescending (though I strongly doubt this was your intent; I'm not ascribing any malice to your view ) to shrug it off as 'she doesn't know enough so this will do for her'.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

And that's assuming that she's not drawn in by Eldar, who have a more elegant aesthetic and also their fair share of female representation.
I'm sorry, I just don't follow this marine centric view where Marines are the only pull to the hobby. If that were the case no one would bother collecting any other faction.
[


Yoyre right - dark eldar have a recent drop and pretty cool models and nice representation. Craftworld eldar though? Might be just me, but they seriously need an overhaul.

Regardless though, gw pushes marines as the first army and the flagship of the whole company. Lions share of models, rules and exposure. Fair enough if you don't follow the marine centric view - my first real foray likewise was non marine - tau in my case. But gw very much does. They sell marines first, then the rest of the hobby. And it's for a lot of very marketable reasons.

Representation means a lot less when you can't see it, or where the variety is limited in scope or pigeonholed in theme.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 18:41:33


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Deadnight wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


You pretty much described a Sister of Battle in your 12 year old girl example though. She isn't going to know the intricacies between a Space Marine and a Sister, she'll just see a powered armor individual kicking arse. In that respect, a Sister of Battle would be sufficient, and would arguably be more effective than a headswap as a Sister of Battle is clearly a woman.
[


And when she reads the lore or gets more than a 30 second description from the staff?



Explain why you think the Sisters of Battle fluff is a turn off and the Marine fluff wouldn't be to a 12 year old girl? Because to a newcomer, especially to a child, they are going to sound effectively the same.
Put yourself in the shoes of someone who knows nothing about the hobby, and especially in those of a child. The first thing you're going to notice isn't the fluff.
If anything is going to be a turnoff, it will be the girl's parents looking at the price of a set, think about the price of a video game, and then lead the child to...well, Steam I guess, because game stores are apparently dead now.

Also, the remedy to GW pushing marines isn't to push marines harder but with a different face, but show off other factions. Which is what they have been doing recently, thankfully.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 18:42:08


Post by: skchsan


 JNAProductions wrote:
Skchsan, you’re wrong. You’re just flat out wrong. People who want women Marines aren’t doing it because we want porn-there’s a whole Internet of that, if that’s what we wanted.

We legitimately think it would help make the game more welcoming, and would be cool modding opportunities, and can easily fit in the lore. If you want to address the arguments, address them on their merits, not with ad hominem.
And as male members of this hobby community, instead of assuming what women feel towards the hobby & its community, why don't you go out and actually ask. Look for actual female representation as a hobbyist's side, and ask them how they feel.

This post is just another case of "men know best", which is a farcry from making the game "more welcoming".


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 18:47:54


Post by: SemperMortis


Let me summarize every single thread about this topic ever.

Side 1: BuT mY rEpReSeNtAtIoN!

Side 2: History of the game, economics, actual real world scenarios.

Never let the Cult members of the Woke Mob in, they will ruin everything fun.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 19:31:44


Post by: Cronch


 skchsan wrote:
Removed - WTF

Show me where the anime doll touched you.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 19:42:24


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


CthuluIsSpy wrote:It's as if people who really like the setting as is don't like it when retcons happen.
I'm not hearing any complaints about the new Sisters units, despite them not having existed before?
You saw it happen with the Necrons and you saw it happen with Warhammer Fantasy. They spent time in money on a hobby they love, of course they are going to have a negative reaction when something drastic happens; to them its becoming less of what they invested it.
But why is including women such a dealbreaker?
It's like that old thought experiment, the Ship of Theseus; if you keep changing parts of the ship, are you left with the same ship? Same idea with the setting, if you keep changing parts of it, are you left with the same setting? A lot of people don't think so.
But when the part is literally just "women Space Marines" is that the whole mast being removed, or just a nail?

Just because GW could change the fluff, doesn't necessarily mean they should. Would you be fine with the the fluff if, after a rigorous night of peyote abuse, they decided to make every faction a squig? That would cause quite a stir, wouldn't it?
This just in, real life human women are comparable to squigs.

And this is coming from someone who really doesn't like Marines getting the lions shares of releases, and would rather see them update Imperial Guard and Eldar.
Oh, I agree - and that's why I'd rather just have the headswaps, because that'll be much easier than a whole new range.
Though technically a Chapter Serf update wouldn't be "Marine" update, but that's splitting hairs.
It absolutely would be a Marine update. Just because they're not in power armour, they'd be part of the Chapter, and therefore, a Marines update.

Sledgehammer wrote:And no one said "no girls allowed in 40k".
Nah, just "no girls allowed in my flagship faction that makes up most of the factions in the game".
You're asking to undermine the basic idea of fraternal militant orders of crusading space knights.
But not all Space Marines follow the basic idea of fraternal militant orders of crusading space knights, for a start.

Representation is important, but you can do that without depriving others of a fantasy or idea.
The only one depriving people of their fantasy or idea is *you*.

If *you* want the fantasy of all-male fraternal militant warrior orders, you go make your own army only include men! You have have that fantasy! But why can't I have my army of women Astartes?
There are plenty of avenues for new and expanded factions and characters. You just want this one hyper specific thing.
Again, you say "hyper specific" like I'm not just asking for women.

If I was asking for something like "I demand all Space Marines to be called Tim, and have brown hair and a face tattoo and they can only turn right on the battlefield!", that would be hyper specific. But wanting women Space Marines? How is that "hyper specific"?

Arbiter_Shade wrote:I feel like the people who argue for FSM are the same people that ruined Star Wars.
You know that Star Wars is still one of the largest IPs out there, right?
What is not fine is to change a fundamental aspect of a setting that is older than most of the people wanting to change it just because of their current social sensibilities.
Why is Space Marines not having women fundamental to the setting? It doesn't affect my genestealers at all.

The Imperium of Man has been represented as a villain in the setting since the beginning to anyone that has payed even remote attention to it. It is a theocratic oppressive system that primarily focus on an unending war machine with little use for anything other than efficiency. Humanity are NOT the "good guys" nor is any other faction in the game because a rather fundamental aspect of the lore is that there are no winners in war. The idea that a oppressive regime would have role definition based on sex is not exactly a revelatory idea.
Being villainous doesn't mean they're sexist. And, evidently, they're not institutionally sexist. Many of the High Lords are women, and the Guardsmen are made up of a mixed gender force.

If your ultimate desire is to completely rewrite the fundamentals of a setting then why on earth don't you just create another setting?
Again, why is Space Marines not having women fundamental, if it even is? I fail to see how it impacts anything beyond your choice of head, let alone any other faction.

The lore is shallow and kind of a joke but at least it doesn't try to change what a Space Marine is as their base level.
Evidently, we don't agree on what that is then.

To answer the question of posed at the beginning of the thread, just put more resources into Sisters of Battle. Sisters of Battle are the female equivalent of Space Marines as far as game play goes
This isn't about gameplay, and Sisters being compared to Space Marines does both Space Marines and Sisters a massive disservice to one another.
and asking for female space marines is akin to asking why Ultramarines can't take Daemon Engines.
Including real human women is equivalent to a made up faction not being able to take make up things belong to a different made up faction?

I think you're confused on just how real women are?

Tiberias wrote:That's some mental gymnastics if I've ever seen some. Ultramarines going chaos wouldn't be Ultramarines anymore in the sense that they don't belong to the chapter any more that absolutely won't use demon engines.
So what are they if not ex-Ultramarines?
Also, speaking of "Ultramarines would never use daemon engines!", you might want to re-read the Uriel Ventris novels. You know, that canon you're talking about.

Also the newest 3 star wars movies were absolutely horrendous and were poorly recieved by fans.
"Fans"? They share a brain cell now?

Galas wrote:I'll also say that more than one woman would do a little more than raising an eyebrown with the arguments some people are using in this debate.


"Adding women to a all male army is equivalent to making everyone in the galaxy a squig/having loyalist using demon possessed vehicles"
Yeah - there's a great deal of pretty bizarre comparisons to women here.

Deadnight wrote:Crusading space knights is just one interpretation of them. My Raptors laugh at the knight idea and my Minotaurs just want to punch the tin cans because they think knights are silly. this idea of marines as 'knights' has been steadily diluted since the 80s and that was a long time ago, and added to with other identities at the same time. Monk is another one. i actually quite like the Monastic traditions as a theme, and often defend it, and it is, in my mind, pretty cool, and also not incompatible with the idea of female marines. Monastic traditions are hugely varied after all. And mixed gender might be a bit of a modern take on a traditional idea, but is that a bad thing? Space Marines are not based on just one idea. I mean fair enough for dark angels or black templars to have strong knightly themes, but is it anywhere near as strong for space wolves, Raptors, white scars, salamanders, raven guard,iron hands etc?

Representation, as you say, is important. Marines are the flagship product. If anywhere makes sense, ita there. And I'm not depriving anyone of a fantasy, but with respect, that's not something I can say of the 'no fsm' side, even if, as is often the case, there is no malice in their position. If you want all-male marines based on crusading space knights, make them as such. No lore is holding you back and there is no one that will ridicule you or harass you over it. I just think it's nice to return the favour.
I'd have loved to quote this whole thing and just repeat it, but I'll just echo this section back, all of it.

This. ^^^^

skchsan wrote:Stop pretending that you, the advocates, are pushing for some sort of social equality by being inclusive, making the products more suitable for female audiences, etc through introduction of FSM.

All you want is boobs and ass on your toy soldiers. You know there are 3rd party miniature producers that make pin up dolls, but you're not allowed to show them off at GW sanctioned tourneys because [REASONS]. Thus, you want GW to release the female versions of the models so you can 'legally' own pin up models that you can play with.
... yup, sure. That's why I voted for "headswap". That's why I collect Space Marines, so I can fetishise them.

Also, while I'm at it, can I have Space Marines be all male so that I can only have them so I can have a massive pendulous penis on my Space Marines? I want abs and sweaty testes, and a nice swell cleft in their chins. After all, I'm pansexual, so it only makes sense that if I'm only in this for sexy women Astartes, I get my fair share of hot dude action.

And I definitely want to be able to rub them in everyone's face, I'm just that kind of exhibitionist, I hate the idea of having to hide my oiled, 'Ardcoated, bare chested man marines, so I 'm just begging for GW to canonise my sexy sexy Space Marines.

For legal reasons, that is a joke. Well, except about my sexuality. That part is real. Which is why this whole thing is incredibly bizarre from skchsan - if I was such a pervert, wouldn't I also want to make my men hyper-sexualised too? Should we just make all Space Marines sexless?

SemperMortis wrote:Let me summarize every single thread about this topic ever.

Side 1: BuT mY looOoOoOoORe!

Side 2: History of the game, economics, actual real world scenarios, empathy, artistic factional analysis, critical thinking skills, diligently unpicked arguments.
Let me rephrase that.

Never let the Cult members of the Woke Mob in, they will ruin everything fun.
Remind me, what's fun about making sure that women can't be Space Marines? I think I missed the memo.


How best to add female space marines - The Models @ 2021/07/14 19:45:46


Post by: Manchu


This thread has become a duplicate of another, similar one so I am locking this one and redirecting traffic to the other:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/799656.page