Grrrrr....again....and again and again....we just want to give you money and you screw us again and again! I know this isn't original, and I know this is business as usual, but I'm so sick of this. I love your product, I love the world, I...well...the game is okay too...but GW are seriously dirty when it comes to practices like this.
on the bright side this is good as it means demand outpaced production which means with any lkuck it might signal to GW orks are more popular then they thought
remember sisters of battle had this same issue with their box
BrianDavion wrote: on the bright side this is good as it means demand outpaced production which means with any lkuck it might signal to GW orks are more popular then they thought
remember sisters of battle had this same issue with their box
Any pretense that they 'didn't know the popularity orks/sisters/whatever' is lost after a few repetitions of this particular exercise. And that was a couple years ago at this point.
Since they were actively prepping the website for this one, and forewarning people about the stock levels, the same old excuses just don't hold water. They knew. They simply under-produced again.
Dominion was one of the rare cases where they got it right. Sales were good, but they're slowly trickling out of stock over the course of six weeks or so. That's a healthy lifespan for a specialty box (if one wants to argue that limited time boxes are good for consumers at all, which I don't. They should ride for the duration of the edition, which should be longer than they are now)
Meh. I rarely buy GW, and always avoid their web store. With the inclusion of the codex to jack the price up, I doubt I'll pick this up even if I luck out and find a discount somewhere on the web. I want to buy GW minis, but they make it so damn hard!
dream archipelago wrote: Sold out (or rather, prebooked pretty much immediately) here at the stores in Sweden today. What can men do against such reckless hate I ask?
Same here in the Netherlands. After some searching I was able to place an order at a FLGS, and I hope it will go through.
BrianDavion wrote: on the bright side this is good as it means demand outpaced production which means with any lkuck it might signal to GW orks are more popular then they thought
remember sisters of battle had this same issue with their box
Any pretense that they 'didn't know the popularity orks/sisters/whatever' is lost after a few repetitions of this particular exercise. And that was a couple years ago at this point.
Since they were actively prepping the website for this one, and forewarning people about the stock levels, the same old excuses just don't hold water. They knew. They simply under-produced again.
Dominion was one of the rare cases where they got it right. Sales were good, but they're slowly trickling out of stock over the course of six weeks or so. That's a healthy lifespan for a specialty box (if one wants to argue that limited time boxes are good for consumers at all, which I don't. They should ride for the duration of the edition, which should be longer than they are now)
For Dominion my local store released a memo saying GW wouldn't be shipping literally anything else out for 2 weeks as their factory and warehousing was entirely dedicated to its release. It's likely less a case of GW not knowing that products will sell out super quickly than simply not having the capability to meet demand. I do think only making the ork codex available as part of such a limited release box set when they know that only a small faction of customers can get hold of it isn't a great customer friendly move on their part...
I was stuck in a queue on the US site. Took me 20min. Got through at 1:17 EST and it was sold out.
Called a LGS and pre-ordered one through them instead. I heard it was allocated stock. 4-5 to stores. So I was surprised they had one available for me.
Rogzor87 wrote: I was stuck in a queue on the US site. Took me 20min. Got through at 1:17 EST and it was sold out.
Called a LGS and pre-ordered one through them instead. I heard it was allocated stock.
4-5 to stores. So I was surprised they had one available for me.
I went to my local store at 10:15ish AM to preorder. The owner said I was number 12 on the list and that he only expected to get 4.
Wow- freaky surprised that I could still preorder if I wanted to- took about a minute to queue into the site, and there are still boxes. Also think the price is actually reasonable for what you get.
I'm not ordering this one, but I am encouraged that the Kill Team release will be smooth. The GK v Ksons box probably won't really be very high demand. But with both of those on the way, there just wasn't room in the budget for snaggas.
Kind of a shame, because I really like Zodgrod and I must have that giant great white squig and I'd need some snagga boys to fill the detachment. But knowing that I'll be able to get what I need a box at a time over a year or so takes the sting out of any lost savings.
In my area in Canada, you could call a Games Workshop store and pre-order your pre-order. The staff would write your contact info and place the order for you on their store terminals which aren't affected by the website queue, as soon as the product was released. Then just call in later with your credit card details or visit in person to complete the transaction. They even said if they weren't able to secure an online pre-order for you that they'd reserve one of their store allotment for you.
Sledgehammer wrote: The fact that it seems like GW cant release a single preorder without everything selling out in 5 minutes, should have investors psyched.
Not really, selling out so quickly means that there's significantly less stock than demand. Every person that wanted to buy a box but couldn't is lost profit.
We are fortunate to have a number of local stores in our region that hold GW accounts. Between the 4 or so of them, you can get just about anything if you pre-order. Some shops you can just message on Facebook what you want and they reply back when it's ready to pick up. I haven't ordered direct from GW in years and based on this I'm glad I do not have to.
Really there is little incentive to meet demand on day one, makes people feel the product is more value and drives sales for other products as well.
People keep buying, so they won’t stop
H.B.M.C. wrote: Gonna have to really be on the ball come Kill Team 2.0 order day.
I've decided I'm fine with just the rule book, I don't play orks or guard so I'm not gonna be buying it but yeah it's gonna suck for Ork players in partiuclar as I bet some of that terrain'll be exclusive
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah but you know me. I want that terrain. I want two sets of that terrain.
on the bright side, they're advertising this as the kill team starter box not the kill team "launch box" so hopefullyu it'll be in continious production for a bit
No they said it was a launch box and that it would have the same availability as Indomitus/Dominion.
And it's 40k, which means it'll sell out in 14 seconds rather than 14 days. Actually hold on... *checks GW website*... ok, Dominion hasn't sold out yet. Guess 40k just has it beat.
H.B.M.C. wrote: No they said it was a launch box and that it would have the same availability as Indomitus/Dominion.
And it's 40k, which means it'll sell out in 14 seconds rather than 14 days. Actually hold on... *checks GW website*... ok, Dominion hasn't sold out yet. Guess 40k just has it beat.
uuugh. :(
GW needs to stop with these fething limited edition launch boxes.
H.B.M.C. wrote: No they said it was a launch box and that it would have the same availability as Indomitus/Dominion.
And it's 40k, which means it'll sell out in 14 seconds rather than 14 days. Actually hold on... *checks GW website*... ok, Dominion hasn't sold out yet. Guess 40k just has it beat.
uuugh. :(
GW needs to stop with these fething limited edition launch boxes.
Fomo sells though and you have not produced overcapacity.
BrianDavion wrote: on the bright side this is good as it means demand outpaced production which means with any lkuck it might signal to GW orks are more popular then they thought
remember sisters of battle had this same issue with their box
Any pretense that they 'didn't know the popularity orks/sisters/whatever' is lost after a few repetitions of this particular exercise. And that was a couple years ago at this point.
Since they were actively prepping the website for this one, and forewarning people about the stock levels, the same old excuses just don't hold water. They knew. They simply under-produced again.
Dominion was one of the rare cases where they got it right. Sales were good, but they're slowly trickling out of stock over the course of six weeks or so. That's a healthy lifespan for a specialty box (if one wants to argue that limited time boxes are good for consumers at all, which I don't. They should ride for the duration of the edition, which should be longer than they are now)
I think Dominion not selling out was more that AoS just isn't as popular as people would have you believe.
They didn't make anywhere near the amount of copies of this box as they did for others like Dominion and the Sisters box. It sold out because it was popular, not because evil GW did evil things.
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Darnok wrote: Glad I was not interested in this box.
Dreading the day Squats and Chaos Dwarfs get their new stuff...
You know you don't need these boxes to build or start these armies right? Nothing in the sisters box was needed as the full kits look a lot better than the snap-fit super mono-pose models.
BrianDavion wrote: on the bright side this is good as it means demand outpaced production which means with any lkuck it might signal to GW orks are more popular then they thought
remember sisters of battle had this same issue with their box
Any pretense that they 'didn't know the popularity orks/sisters/whatever' is lost after a few repetitions of this particular exercise. And that was a couple years ago at this point.
Since they were actively prepping the website for this one, and forewarning people about the stock levels, the same old excuses just don't hold water. They knew. They simply under-produced again.
Dominion was one of the rare cases where they got it right. Sales were good, but they're slowly trickling out of stock over the course of six weeks or so. That's a healthy lifespan for a specialty box (if one wants to argue that limited time boxes are good for consumers at all, which I don't. They should ride for the duration of the edition, which should be longer than they are now)
I think Dominion not selling out was more that AoS just isn't as popular as people would have you believe.
Incorrect. They produce an obscene number of copies because the one problem GW does still have is they can't gage the popularity of their own products.
H.B.M.C. wrote: No they said it was a launch box and that it would have the same availability as Indomitus/Dominion.
And it's 40k, which means it'll sell out in 14 seconds rather than 14 days. Actually hold on... *checks GW website*... ok, Dominion hasn't sold out yet. Guess 40k just has it beat.
uuugh. :(
GW needs to stop with these fething limited edition launch boxes.
Why? They're clearly working. There is literally no reason to stop when it's driving interest and selling product, which is what they're all about.
The community can either accept this, or they can take their money elsewhere to other companies and games (which isn't a bad thing, there are other things out their to experience).
Incorrect. They produce an obscene number of copies because the one problem GW does still have is they can't gage the popularity of their own products.
So why did they overproduce Dominion and not this one? Or Cursed City? Or Indomitus? Or the Sisters box? Or literally ANY other limited release? Why was Dominion so special?
Incorrect. They produce an obscene number of copies because the one problem GW does still have is they can't gage the popularity of their own products.
So why did they overproduce Dominion and not this one? Or Cursed City? Or Indomitus? Or the Sisters box? Or literally ANY other limited release? Why was Dominion so special?
Dominion was a direct response to the issues stemming from Indomitus and specifically, the Cursed City debacle. The action of doing the Made to Order is too costly for them, so this time they overproduced by a large amount. It's sold extremely well and there are a lot more AoS players out there now than there was 6 months ago. The AoS reddit page grew by 40% in the last month.
Incorrect. They produce an obscene number of copies because the one problem GW does still have is they can't gage the popularity of their own products.
So why did they overproduce Dominion and not this one? Or Cursed City? Or Indomitus? Or the Sisters box? Or literally ANY other limited release? Why was Dominion so special?
Dominion was a direct response to the issues stemming from Indomitus and specifically, the Cursed City debacle. The action of doing the Made to Order is too costly for them, so this time they overproduced by a large amount. It's sold extremely well and there are a lot more AoS players out there now than there was 6 months ago. The AoS reddit page grew by 40% in the last month.
That doesn't address the fact that the Beastsnaggas box was apparently underproduced, despite 40k being vastly more popular than AoS and literally every other tabletop wargame game on the planet. You can't tell me GW couldn't have predicted this. So either GW over-estimated the demand for Dominion or they're deliberately under-producing 40k limited edition boxes for no gain or reason whatsoever. This isn't a PS5 situation where more units will be produced and the demand will carry over, they make nothing by under-producing these one-shot boxes unless they themselves are scalpers.
Incorrect. They produce an obscene number of copies because the one problem GW does still have is they can't gage the popularity of their own products.
So why did they overproduce Dominion and not this one? Or Cursed City? Or Indomitus? Or the Sisters box? Or literally ANY other limited release? Why was Dominion so special?
Dominion was a direct response to the issues stemming from Indomitus and specifically, the Cursed City debacle. The action of doing the Made to Order is too costly for them, so this time they overproduced by a large amount. It's sold extremely well and there are a lot more AoS players out there now than there was 6 months ago. The AoS reddit page grew by 40% in the last month.
That doesn't address the fact that the Beastsnaggas box was apparently underproduced, despite 40k being vastly more popular than AoS and literally every other tabletop wargame game on the planet. You can't tell me GW couldn't have predicted this. So either GW over-estimated the demand for Dominion or they're deliberately under-producing 40k limited edition boxes for no gain or reason whatsoever. This isn't a PS5 situation where more units will be produced and the demand will carry over, they make nothing by under-producing these one-shot boxes unless they themselves are scalpers.
Maybe they thought Orks won't sell? I don't know, but you're instituting a false dichotomy by claiming only two possible options. I can't say I've seen all that many ork players over the years.
Incorrect. They produce an obscene number of copies because the one problem GW does still have is they can't gage the popularity of their own products.
So why did they overproduce Dominion and not this one? Or Cursed City? Or Indomitus? Or the Sisters box? Or literally ANY other limited release? Why was Dominion so special?
With the exception of Indomitus and Cursed City all of the LE boxes are faction specific and if they overproduce them they will be stuck with a product that might not move with a codex that competes with the normal one. Indomitus/Dominion style boxes you can still move even long after release as they are edition launch sets.
I mean, just look at the LE Lumineth box and how it was available in purgatory for quite some time after release. That was a release a lot of people were looking for as it meant the return of "high elves". Hell, Blood of the Phoenix also sold atrociously despite it being the return of resin figures in plastic.
Indomitus sold out simply because it is 40k. GW could sell Space Marine Warts and people would still line up and buy it.
Cursed City appears to be something that GW does not want to disclose. Remember that they were willing to put up Made to Order for Indomitus but not Cursed City even if there was heavy demand so I assume there is something larger going behind the scenes regarding Cursed City we won't know until some insider spills the eventual beans.
So the answer is: I assume they made enough Dominion sets to closely match the Indomitus sets. The difference is that everyone and their mother has a functional Marine army whereas the AoS playerbase does not have the rapid fandom for all things Space Marines so not everyone wants Stormcast or Orks(Orruks in the vernacular).
I think Dominion not selling out was more that AoS just isn't as popular as people would have you believe.
It is popular. Not Space Marine popular - because we must all by now realize that 40k is just Space Marines - but still popular.
Our three FLGS are sitting on lots of Dominion boxes with no signs of selling them. Indomitus never touched the shelves - those were all snapped up by the local gaming community on day one. I wonder if GW planned the Dominion production off real AOS data and not just an assumption that it would sell like Indomitus? I hope that the stores can afford to sit on this much stock.
The big difference of why they would consider overproduction of dominon ok, is that as a core product they can assume it will bring in a lot more sales to have it accessible and on the shelves for the time being.
This one is more a supplemental product that will all be for sale latter I assume. The FOMO value is higher and creates a product scarcity that will effect future sales. People will run for these releases if they can keep the stock low enough to sell out fast. But too fast and people may give up.
They probably not very good at judging demand for products and how to make demand. As for ork players this looks like a awesome box.
Apple fox wrote: The big difference of why they would consider overproduction of dominon ok, is that as a core product they can assume it will bring in a lot more sales to have it accessible and on the shelves for the time being.
This one is more a supplemental product that will all be for sale latter I assume. The FOMO value is higher and creates a product scarcity that will effect future sales. People will run for these releases if they can keep the stock low enough to sell out fast. But too fast and people may give up.
They probably not very good at judging demand for products and how to make demand. As for ork players this looks like a awesome box.
I think GW just over- and underestimates people's desire for certain boxes. Wrath and Rapture - a dual box for both systems- was available on their store for nearly a year. Blood of the Phoenix was available months after launch, as well as the Lumineth Realmlords. Then you have boxes like Carrion Empire and Looncurse(my FLGS got just 2 of those) that disappear just as quickly as they appear. Hell, even Speedfreekz was available 7 months later in my FLGS after release so my guess is that it is easier said than done to estimate how much of each will sell.
What I can tell from my FLGS is that they don't mind sitting on the Dominion boxes as they will sell as they are a good deal getting started in the game for 2 players, whereas many of the dual boxes and battleforces are a harder product to move they still have in stock. I think my FLGS still has like 6-7 of the Battleforce IG boxes sitting around that just won't move.
Ultimately my problem with the Snagga box is that it is literally an Early Access product(like in computer games) which is a format I loathe with a passion.
Ultimately my problem with the Snagga box is that it is literally an Early Access product(like in computer games) which is a format I loathe with a passion.
Its... not. Early access is all about charging customers for the work in progress. Literally the consumers are paying the company to be beta testers. For indie devs, its sometimes the only way they have enough money to see the game through to completion (though that doesn't excuse the way it gets abused)
For all its sins, this is a complete product. As finished as it will be in 2 or 3 (or 6) months when the codex is released on its own. (which is to say there will be errors that they should have caught, but the timing and format of this box don't have any effect on that).
The solo release of the codex will likely have a slightly different cover, but no change in content.
That is one way to define "early access" - certainly, it's a valid definition, and the situation you describe is certainly common.
However, people who buy this limited box will have "Access" to the codex "Earlier" than the full, unlimited release of the dex. This cannot be denied- it is the literal, and obvious truth.
So even if it doesn't fit the tight parameters of a specific policy which also goes by the name of Early Access (TM), it is still early access when you just look up the words early and access in any ole dictionary.
bullyboy wrote: I'm surprised some of the local stores here have room for any new kits due to the amount of dominion boxes still sitting on the shelves.
That's not on GW, that's on those stores for over ordering.
Ultimately my problem with the Snagga box is that it is literally an Early Access product(like in computer games) which is a format I loathe with a passion.
Its... not. Early access is all about charging customers for the work in progress. Literally the consumers are paying the company to be beta testers. For indie devs, its sometimes the only way they have enough money to see the game through to completion (though that doesn't excuse the way it gets abused)
For all its sins, this is a complete product. As finished as it will be in 2 or 3 (or 6) months when the codex is released on its own. (which is to say there will be errors that they should have caught, but the timing and format of this box don't have any effect on that).
The solo release of the codex will likely have a slightly different cover, but no change in content.
Still an early access product by the definition of the words "Early" and "Access", which you get if you buy this box - you get an early access to the codex ahead of everyone else.
DarkerBlue wrote: They should just charge higher prices. If the demand is that high, why shouldn't they?
Rather a free market than a lottery
After all, why should the poors be allowed to enjoy things.
This is poverty in 2021. Not being able to afford as many plastic space soldiers as other people.
Being able to afford toy soldiers is a 1st world problem in the first place, but GWs pricing is classist enough I see no reason to add to it. Boomers can wait in line with the rest of us.
The main appeal of the beast Snaggas Box is a proper discount at a time where GW is driving its prices higher and higher. Also if you're interested in Beast Snaggas you'll want everything in the Box at some point, there are no "useless" sets in there Veterans already have lots of and newbies get a proper start no matter if they're focused on narrative or organized play. The codex is just icing on top.
bullyboy wrote: I'm surprised some of the local stores here have room for any new kits due to the amount of dominion boxes still sitting on the shelves.
That's not on GW, that's on those stores for over ordering.
It was 125£. GW did me a favor. I want the new KT box and HH with new beaks. Hope one of those can pan out. If not, GW will have done me another favor…
GW is so busy producing limited discount boxes that my community can't get existing units they want at full price. Doesn't seem like the smartest business move. And before someone says it--yes, these people are turning to 3rd parties instead so it is lost sales.
Ultimately my problem with the Snagga box is that it is literally an Early Access product(like in computer games) which is a format I loathe with a passion.
Its... not. Early access is all about charging customers for the work in progress. Literally the consumers are paying the company to be beta testers. For indie devs, its sometimes the only way they have enough money to see the game through to completion (though that doesn't excuse the way it gets abused)
For all its sins, this is a complete product. As finished as it will be in 2 or 3 (or 6) months when the codex is released on its own. (which is to say there will be errors that they should have caught, but the timing and format of this box don't have any effect on that).
The solo release of the codex will likely have a slightly different cover, but no change in content.
Still an early access product by the definition of the words "Early" and "Access", which you get if you buy this box - you get an early access to the codex ahead of everyone else.
Yeah, sure... If you're going entirely by the general definitions of the words and not referring to what the computer game industry is doing _at all_, why are you even bringing up the computer game industry? Where limited stock and getting access 'ahead' of anyone else (because anyone can buy in) aren't even issues?
There's a lot to dislike about both behaviors, but... they don't overlap.
I didn't think even GW was myopic enough to gate a codex behind a limited quantity box that sells out immediately. Somewhere, there was evidently a GW marketing executive saying: "Hold my beer..."
bullyboy wrote: I'm surprised some of the local stores here have room for any new kits due to the amount of dominion boxes still sitting on the shelves.
That's not on GW, that's on those stores for over ordering.
Including the GW store....
No, it's just not selling like Indomitus, period.
*in your area.
In mine dominion is sold out. None of our local game stores have a copy left, and the closest Warhammer store has only two copies remaining.
bullyboy wrote: I'm surprised some of the local stores here have room for any new kits due to the amount of dominion boxes still sitting on the shelves.
That's not on GW, that's on those stores for over ordering.
Including the GW store....
No, it's just not selling like Indomitus, period.
Not selling like Indomitus has nothing to do with your local stores over ordering because they misjudged local demand. Of the six stores + GW store here, only the GW store and one other have any stock left.
bullyboy wrote: I'm surprised some of the local stores here have room for any new kits due to the amount of dominion boxes still sitting on the shelves.
That's not on GW, that's on those stores for over ordering.
Including the GW store....
No, it's just not selling like Indomitus, period.
Not selling like Indomitus has nothing to do with your local stores over ordering because they misjudged local demand. Of the six stores + GW store here, only the GW store and one other have any stock left.
Another factor to consider if you're seeing Dominion not selling as quickly as Indom did is budget. This July (& into August) is EXPENSIVE if you enjoy multiple games.
*Early July: AoS Dominion + GHB2021
*This past weekend/this week: the D&D Magic set dropped.
*This coming weekend: 40k Beast-snaggas
*Early(?) Aug.: the new Kill Team edition arrives
That's alot of gaming goodness, but even my hobby budget can't absorb all that in a 5-6 week span.... I had to make a choice of two of these.
It was an easy choice: MTG: D&D - because I've been waiting 20 years for this to happen, & Kill Team - 1) well they had me at plastic Krieg, & I do really like those Kommandos.... 2) but I'll need this for the KT league the shops planning.
bullyboy wrote: I'm surprised some of the local stores here have room for any new kits due to the amount of dominion boxes still sitting on the shelves.
That's not on GW, that's on those stores for over ordering.
Including the GW store....
No, it's just not selling like Indomitus, period.
Not selling like Indomitus has nothing to do with your local stores over ordering because they misjudged local demand. Of the six stores + GW store here, only the GW store and one other have any stock left.
Another factor to consider if you're seeing Dominion not selling as quickly as Indom did is budget. This July (& into August) is EXPENSIVE if you enjoy multiple games.
*Early July: AoS Dominion + GHB2021
*This past weekend/this week: the D&D Magic set dropped.
*This coming weekend: 40k Beast-snaggas
*Early(?) Aug.: the new Kill Team edition arrives
That's alot of gaming goodness, but even my hobby budget can't absorb all that in a 5-6 week span.... I had to make a choice of two of these.
It was an easy choice: MTG: D&D - because I've been waiting 20 years for this to happen, & Kill Team - 1) well they had me at plastic Krieg, & I do really like those Kommandos.... 2) but I'll need this for the KT league the shops planning.
The MTG set was a pleasant surprise. WoTC has been churning out garbage for that game for over five years now, and I was pleasantly surprised at how well put together this set is. If only they could keep the trend going!
Togusa wrote: The MTG set was a pleasant surprise. WoTC has been churning out garbage for that game for over five years now, and I was pleasantly surprised at how well put together this set is. If only they could keep the trend going!
I hate to say it, but as beautiful as some of the D&D cards are the overall strength of that release is absolutely terrible.
Hasbro/WotC is just a vile, despicable company in general. Zero interest in any of their products (which I find lacking in quality as well these days) at this point.
Will see if I can get the new Kill Team on pre-order from a local store (if the pre-orders don't sell out before I can order aka pay for one). This is all very bizarre in general - "I want something but missed being able to buy it during the few seconds it was available for purchase." Would swear there is a war going on and these are extremely rare food rations, but no, it's just your regular good ole consumerism in full swing.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Limited box going out; meh. Limited box inlcuding an early release of the codex is what's douchey about this.
My hop[e is the codex relase is next week, don';t have high hopes as sisters had a 2 month wait IIRC, although christmas happened in between so..
Gw already confirmed it wont be out before 14.8 earliest. And hints 25.9 is latest
edit: In case you wonder where on the preorder article on saturday they noted in tournament they run on 13-15.8 the book won't be used because it's not out yet. So that's why it will be on stores on 14.8(saturday) EARLIEST. If it came week earlier GW would have less incentive to ban new codex from tournament. No word regarding ban for tournament on first weekend of october so unless they are going to announce ban there too later it means it is on stores before that and 25.9 is last saturday before that tournament kicks in(on friday). Thus 25.9 latest.
Sledgehammer wrote: The fact that it seems like GW cant release a single preorder without everything selling out in 5 minutes, should have investors psyched.
Not really, selling out so quickly means that there's significantly less stock than demand. Every person that wanted to buy a box but couldn't is lost profit.
Except they know a) there's no stock sitting along warhouse(costs money) b)they get to sell same stuff full price rather than discount.
Those unsold will be sold at higher profit margin later
You know you don't need these boxes to build or start these armies right? Nothing in the sisters box was needed as the full kits look a lot better than the snap-fit super mono-pose models.
[
Snapfit doesn't affect looks and most of sister kits are monopose. Repentia at least has 2-pose kit. But box set was good precisely due to sister kits being monopose. Without that you have even more copy monopose models
Incorrect. They produce an obscene number of copies because the one problem GW does still have is they can't gage the popularity of their own products.
So why did they overproduce Dominion and not this one? Or Cursed City? Or Indomitus? Or the Sisters box? Or literally ANY other limited release? Why was Dominion so special?
Dominion was a direct response to the issues stemming from Indomitus and specifically, the Cursed City debacle. The action of doing the Made to Order is too costly for them, so this time they overproduced by a large amount. It's sold extremely well and there are a lot more AoS players out there now than there was 6 months ago. The AoS reddit page grew by 40% in the last month.
Indomitus i could buy the claim but cc? No. When cc was released dominion boxes were already done
Togusa wrote: The MTG set was a pleasant surprise. WoTC has been churning out garbage for that game for over five years now, and I was pleasantly surprised at how well put together this set is. If only they could keep the trend going!
I hate to say it, but as beautiful as some of the D&D cards are the overall strength of that release is absolutely terrible.
Cards seem fine to me, but I've been playing Kitchen Table for 24 years now ignoring all the WAAC types.
Get ready to be shocked, but you know what I think the best set in the history of the game is? It's Prophecy.
Togusa wrote: The MTG set was a pleasant surprise. WoTC has been churning out garbage for that game for over five years now, and I was pleasantly surprised at how well put together this set is. If only they could keep the trend going!
I hate to say it, but as beautiful as some of the D&D cards are the overall strength of that release is absolutely terrible.
As in terrible too strong, or terrible too weak?
Either way it doesn't really matter to me. The pre-release was fun & everything seemed to work with itself well enough.
In the end I'll build this set set & it'll find its way into some casual decks to be used on occasion while we're waiting for everyone else to arrive for the actual D&D game.
Togusa wrote: The MTG set was a pleasant surprise. WoTC has been churning out garbage for that game for over five years now, and I was pleasantly surprised at how well put together this set is. If only they could keep the trend going!
I hate to say it, but as beautiful as some of the D&D cards are the overall strength of that release is absolutely terrible.
As in terrible too strong, or terrible too weak?
Either way it doesn't really matter to me. The pre-release was fun & everything seemed to work with itself well enough.
In the end I'll build this set set & it'll find its way into some casual decks to be used on occasion while we're waiting for everyone else to arrive for the actual D&D game.
Said without a trace of irony by a guy who supports GW....
I made a FR thread in the card game forum section, let's take this there so we don't derail this thread. But I'd really like to hear more about why the other poster doesn't like the set.
Ultimately my problem with the Snagga box is that it is literally an Early Access product(like in computer games) which is a format I loathe with a passion.
Its... not. Early access is all about charging customers for the work in progress. Literally the consumers are paying the company to be beta testers. For indie devs, its sometimes the only way they have enough money to see the game through to completion (though that doesn't excuse the way it gets abused)
For all its sins, this is a complete product. As finished as it will be in 2 or 3 (or 6) months when the codex is released on its own. (which is to say there will be errors that they should have caught, but the timing and format of this box don't have any effect on that).
The solo release of the codex will likely have a slightly different cover, but no change in content.
Still an early access product by the definition of the words "Early" and "Access", which you get if you buy this box - you get an early access to the codex ahead of everyone else.
Yeah, sure... If you're going entirely by the general definitions of the words and not referring to what the computer game industry is doing _at all_, why are you even bringing up the computer game industry? Where limited stock and getting access 'ahead' of anyone else (because anyone can buy in) aren't even issues?
There's a lot to dislike about both behaviors, but... they don't overlap.
You're the one obsessing about computer games and derailing this thread into a definition debate so take that as you will. Although I would argue that with the lack of testing on a lot of GW products I would argue that most of the time we are indeed paying for relatively untested product. Of course, if you believe Ad Mech and Drukhari are the epitome of balance and perfection you are of course free to disagree.
Just like with indomitus the lack of product vs demand is intentional by GW.
There will be more available of course, but only once white hot demand has been created via the frustration of not being able to get one at first release.
Apparently they are already on eBay for an outrageous uplift
mrFickle wrote: Just like with indomitus the lack of product vs demand is intentional by GW.
There will be more available of course, but only once white hot demand has been created via the frustration of not being able to get one at first release.
Apparently they are already on eBay for an outrageous uplift
Indomatus was not by intent, there was an identified scalper problem there, it's why GW took the damn near unprecidented decision to do a second made to order wave
Eldarsif wrote: You're the one obsessing about computer games and derailing this thread into a definition debate so take that as you will. Although I would argue that with the lack of testing on a lot of GW products I would argue that most of the time we are indeed paying for relatively untested product. Of course, if you believe Ad Mech and Drukhari are the epitome of balance and perfection you are of course free to disagree.
When your argument is that something is "literally" like a well established, clearly defined and understood "something else", when it is - in fact - not like that "something else" at all, then you have to put up with being called out instead of moving your goal post.
Eldarsif wrote: Ultimately my problem with the Snagga box is that it is literally an Early Access product(like in computer games) which is a format I loathe with a passion.
By using capital letters for Early Access in addition to the clarification "like in computer games" you made it crystal clear what you meant. But your POV here is simply wrong. You can dislike it because you hate the color of the box for all I care, but don't make false analogies and then try to wiggle yourself out when being called out.
Happy day for me got a phone call from my flgs and was asked if I still wanted aset. Seems there was a2nd preorder alocation. When I asked how many were allocated was told 4 so got for my friends as well.
Seems like the intent with this stuff is to have a guaranteed sell out of a production run with a predictable profit. They can put the prices up a little higher because fomo will push people to spend more, and they don't end up with dud product sitting around taking up shelf space. They were burned with that a few times.
I think it's anti-consumer and I'm not interested in following it at all, but I can see what they are doing. It is more predictable for them and there's less chance of "failure" of a product.
But I'm not gonna buy into any of it, because I've learned to hate companies motivating me with fomo. For me, it was the wave of kickstarters a few years ago when that site launched that soured me on that marketing approach, so it's not like GW are the worst company in this regard. But I want to decide for myself when I spend my money and get new stuff, not based off the hype train and fomo. This is personal, I'm aware that that kind of psychology doesn't apply to everyone, but it does to me and I'd prefer not to engage with companies using those tactics.
I think it's anti-consumer and I'm not interested in following it at all.
I really wish more people cared about this. Refusing to support anti-consumer stuff when its massive multi-billion dollar corporations is pointless but when its a relativly small fish like GW a concerted effort could easily effect their bottom line in a way that they would notice. But sadly people just HAVE to have those new space marines.
I think it's anti-consumer and I'm not interested in following it at all.
I really wish more people cared about this. Refusing to support anti-consumer stuff when its massive multi-billion dollar corporations is pointless but when its a relativly small fish like GW a concerted effort could easily effect their bottom line in a way that they would notice. But sadly people just HAVE to have those new space marines.
I don’t think they are small fish, they are the only high street shop to have had year on year profits go up since 2008.
I think it's anti-consumer and I'm not interested in following it at all.
I really wish more people cared about this. Refusing to support anti-consumer stuff when its massive multi-billion dollar corporations is pointless but when its a relativly small fish like GW a concerted effort could easily effect their bottom line in a way that they would notice. But sadly people just HAVE to have those new space marines.
I don’t think they are small fish, they are the only high street shop to have had year on year profits go up since 2008.
So you think if players all agreed across Reddit and Facebook etc to just not buy new codexes GW wouldn't notice?
I think it's anti-consumer and I'm not interested in following it at all.
I really wish more people cared about this. Refusing to support anti-consumer stuff when its massive multi-billion dollar corporations is pointless but when its a relativly small fish like GW a concerted effort could easily effect their bottom line in a way that they would notice. But sadly people just HAVE to have those new space marines.
I don’t think they are small fish, they are the only high street shop to have had year on year profits go up since 2008.
So you think if players all agreed across Reddit and Facebook etc to just not buy new codexes GW wouldn't notice?
Good luck. Even if the internet forum users weren't a vocal minority of GW players, actually getting them to follow through is as laughably impossible as any of the other thousand times people have said that.
Yeah, the gratification of getting a box of Space Marines is generally far greater than whatever infinitesimally small impact not buying it might have.
The majority of people won't even care at all, they're more than happy with what GW/40k does.
I think it's anti-consumer and I'm not interested in following it at all.
I really wish more people cared about this. Refusing to support anti-consumer stuff when its massive multi-billion dollar corporations is pointless but when its a relativly small fish like GW a concerted effort could easily effect their bottom line in a way that they would notice. But sadly people just HAVE to have those new space marines.
I don’t think they are small fish, they are the only high street shop to have had year on year profits go up since 2008.
So you think if players all agreed across Reddit and Facebook etc to just not buy new codexes GW wouldn't notice?
What a weird mentality. People enjoy buying new codexes, why shouldn't they?
I'm not really trying to start a movement or anything by saying I don't want to participate in fomo driven purchases. It's more for the health of my own wallet and keeping my collection limited to the stuff I actually want rather than stuff I'm afraid I'll miss out on. If it means I actually do miss some cool stuff, ah well. Plenty of companies sell cool stuff that I can actually buy whenever I have the time, inclination and budget.
Like I said, back in the KS days I realised that I'd missed nothing much by not backing Reaper Bones for example, I was able to get any miniatures from that kickstarter that I wanted years later and ultimately cost me less money and added less bloat to my collection.
I think it's anti-consumer and I'm not interested in following it at all.
I really wish more people cared about this. Refusing to support anti-consumer stuff when its massive multi-billion dollar corporations is pointless but when its a relativly small fish like GW a concerted effort could easily effect their bottom line in a way that they would notice. But sadly people just HAVE to have those new space marines.
I don’t think they are small fish, they are the only high street shop to have had year on year profits go up since 2008.
So you think if players all agreed across Reddit and Facebook etc to just not buy new codexes GW wouldn't notice?
What company wouldn’t notice of all their customers stopped buying from them
Sim-Life wrote: Sorry okay, I get it.
CONSUME PRODUCT THEN GET EXCITED TO CONSUME MORE PRODUCT
You're on a forum that's literally dedicated to consuming product and discussing the various ways of consuming said product.
If you want to jump of twitter and try to convince gwhq to stop making plastic toys and instead devote their time to disarming land mines and feeding the poor then he my guest but it's pretty fething boring.
Sim-Life wrote: Sorry okay, I get it.
CONSUME PRODUCT THEN GET EXCITED TO CONSUME MORE PRODUCT
You're on a forum that's literally dedicated to consuming product and discussing the various ways of consuming said product.
If you want to jump of twitter and try to convince gwhq to stop making plastic toys and instead devote their time to disarming land mines and feeding the poor then he my guest but it's pretty fething boring.
I think you'll find that this is a forum to discuss the hobby. I haven't given GW money in years. The rest of your post is so far away from the point I'm not even sure you meant to reply to me.
DarkerBlue wrote: You're on a forum that's literally dedicated to consuming product and discussing the various ways of consuming said product.
If you want to jump of twitter and try to convince gwhq to stop making plastic toys and instead devote their time to disarming land mines and feeding the poor then he my guest but it's pretty fething boring.
I'm gonna guess you've not been here long, but this is more of a place for bitching about product at least as much as consuming it.
That's really not a snarky complaint. To my knowledge there's not a lot of good discussion areas to criticize anything other than competitive balance of the game (r/WarhammerCompetitive) and even that only lets things go so far.
Sim-Life wrote: Sorry okay, I get it.
CONSUME PRODUCT THEN GET EXCITED TO CONSUME MORE PRODUCT
You're on a forum that's literally dedicated to consuming product and discussing the various ways of consuming said product.
If you want to jump of twitter and try to convince gwhq to stop making plastic toys and instead devote their time to disarming land mines and feeding the poor then he my guest but it's pretty fething boring.
I think you'll find that this is a forum to discuss the hobby. I haven't given GW money in years. The rest of your post is so far away from the point I'm not even sure you meant to reply to me.
What he said, since I'm pretty sure that if Dakka allowed it we'd have many a thread discussing who exactly are the best recasters and were to get their product. as well as various other less legal ways of enjoying the hobby. Just because many of us enjoy the Hobby/Game/Lore doesn't mean we are all mindless GW consumers perfectly happy with their practices.
What he said, since I'm pretty sure that if Dakka allowed it we'd have many a thread discussing who exactly are the best recasters and were to get their product. as well as various other less legal ways of enjoying the hobby. Just because many of us enjoy the Hobby/Game/Lore doesn't mean we are all mindless GW consumers perfectly happy with their practices.
Hell, check me on this; are discussions of 3D printing/STL patreons of close approximations/models with clear 40K analogues allowed, as long as it's not about direct scans or recasts of official models? Because I heartily encourage 3D printed proxies and I know there's a Kickstarter page for what is essentially a resculpt of the entire Skaven army on the 3D printing forum.
What he said, since I'm pretty sure that if Dakka allowed it we'd have many a thread discussing who exactly are the best recasters and were to get their product. as well as various other less legal ways of enjoying the hobby. Just because many of us enjoy the Hobby/Game/Lore doesn't mean we are all mindless GW consumers perfectly happy with their practices.
Hell, check me on this; are discussions of 3D printing/STL patreons of close approximations/models with clear 40K analogues allowed, as long as it's not about direct scans or recasts of official models? Because I heartily encourage 3D printed proxies and I know there's a Kickstarter page for what is essentially a resculpt of the entire Skaven army on the 3D printing forum.
Dakka is literally advertising that very KS on the front page.
What he said, since I'm pretty sure that if Dakka allowed it we'd have many a thread discussing who exactly are the best recasters and were to get their product. as well as various other less legal ways of enjoying the hobby. Just because many of us enjoy the Hobby/Game/Lore doesn't mean we are all mindless GW consumers perfectly happy with their practices.
Hell, check me on this; are discussions of 3D printing/STL patreons of close approximations/models with clear 40K analogues allowed, as long as it's not about direct scans or recasts of official models? Because I heartily encourage 3D printed proxies and I know there's a Kickstarter page for what is essentially a resculpt of the entire Skaven army on the 3D printing forum.
Dakka is literally advertising that very KS on the front page.
I think it's anti-consumer and I'm not interested in following it at all.
I really wish more people cared about this. Refusing to support anti-consumer stuff when its massive multi-billion dollar corporations is pointless but when its a relativly small fish like GW a concerted effort could easily effect their bottom line in a way that they would notice. But sadly people just HAVE to have those new space marines.
I don’t think they are small fish, they are the only high street shop to have had year on year profits go up since 2008.
So you think if players all agreed across Reddit and Facebook etc to just not buy new codexes GW wouldn't notice?
the problem is people buying the big fancy boxed sets. not buying codices.
DarkerBlue wrote: You're on a forum that's literally dedicated to consuming product and discussing the various ways of consuming said product.
This forum isn't dedicated to "consuming product".
sure it is, to play 40k one needs to buy the codex, rules book, minitures etc. you can't engage in 40k without consuming the product unless you advocate piracy, something these forums make a point of saying we can't do.
I mean there's a 35 page thread that basicly consists of "Eldar needs new rules and new minis" a 12 page thread about chaos players saying the same etc.
BrianDavion wrote: sure it is, to play 40k one needs to buy the codex, rules book, minitures etc. you can't engage in 40k without consuming the product unless you advocate piracy, something these forums make a point of saying we can't do.
I mean there's a 35 page thread that basicly consists of "Eldar needs new rules and new minis" a 12 page thread about chaos players saying the same etc.
The basic core rulebook is free online, and we've just established that one doesn't need the official miniatures to play if your LGS isn't a GW. Perhaps Eldar and Chaos might be able to find more updated miniatures to print elsewhere; I think Ghamak did an Eldar/Harlequins range, and Helforged Miniatures is slowly running through the various Traitor Legions.
That does admittedly leave the codexes, which, although among the worst value propositions in 40K, I haven't got an obvious aboveboard workaround for.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here we are; A little more on topic...
Spoiler:
Definitely not quite the majesty of the official model, and I don't think it's Gearguts' best work... but at least you could conceivably get your hands on as many as you want.
BrianDavion wrote: sure it is, to play 40k one needs to buy the codex, rules book, minitures etc. you can't engage in 40k without consuming the product unless you advocate piracy, something these forums make a point of saying we can't do.
I mean there's a 35 page thread that basicly consists of "Eldar needs new rules and new minis" a 12 page thread about chaos players saying the same etc.
The basic core rulebook is free online, and we've just established that one doesn't need the official miniatures to play if your LGS isn't a GW. Perhaps Eldar and Chaos might be able to find more updated miniatures to print elsewhere; I think Ghamak did an Eldar/Harlequins range, and Helforged Miniatures is slowly running through the various Traitor Legions.
That does admittedly leave the codexes, which, although among the worst value propositions in 40K, I haven't got an obvious aboveboard workaround for.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here we are; A little more on topic...
Spoiler:
Definitely not quite the majesty of the official model, and I don't think it's Gearguts' best work... but at least you could conceivably get your hands on as many as you want.
ahh but thsoe third party products are PRODUCTS. they're still something to consume.
Don't think just because you're buying third party doesn't mean you're not consuming product all the same
Great, now I feel stupid for having weighted the pro and cons of getting a discounted box full of stuff I would have eventually gotten anyways instead of just buying it on impulse
Jidmah wrote: Great, now I feel stupid for having weighted the pro and cons of getting a discounted box full of stuff I would have eventually gotten anyways instead of just buying it on impulse
BrianDavion wrote: sure it is, to play 40k one needs to buy the codex, rules book, minitures etc. you can't engage in 40k without consuming the product unless you advocate piracy, something these forums make a point of saying we can't do.
I mean there's a 35 page thread that basicly consists of "Eldar needs new rules and new minis" a 12 page thread about chaos players saying the same etc.
The basic core rulebook is free online, and we've just established that one doesn't need the official miniatures to play if your LGS isn't a GW. Perhaps Eldar and Chaos might be able to find more updated miniatures to print elsewhere; I think Ghamak did an Eldar/Harlequins range, and Helforged Miniatures is slowly running through the various Traitor Legions.
That does admittedly leave the codexes, which, although among the worst value propositions in 40K, I haven't got an obvious aboveboard workaround for.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here we are; A little more on topic...
Spoiler:
Definitely not quite the majesty of the official model, and I don't think it's Gearguts' best work... but at least you could conceivably get your hands on as many as you want.
ahh but thsoe third party products are PRODUCTS. they're still something to consume.
Don't think just because you're buying third party doesn't mean you're not consuming product all the same
But the point, which a lot of people seem to be missing, is that you can use your need to CONSOOM to support independent third party sculptors and companies, instead of the faceless corporation that treats you the same way findoms treat paypigs.
Sim-Life wrote: Literally what do you get by defending gakky, anti-consumer practices? Why do you think you're being clever by supporting being exploited?
Just look at the words you are using and you should know why people get defensive when "buying from GW is bad" is brought up as a topic.
Exploited? Really? Cheap labor in some countries get's exploited. Some companies exploit the tax system. Me buying 1st party products? It's really not the same and shouldn't be used in that context.
I'm an adult customer. I make an informed decision wether a product from a company is worth my own, hard earned money. I know that everything GW does is meant as an incentive for me to consume more. I'm aware GW is not my friend.
Sim-Life wrote: Literally what do you get by defending gakky, anti-consumer practices? Why do you think you're being clever by supporting being exploited?
Just look at the words you are using and you should know why people get defensive when "buying from GW is bad" is brought up as a topic.
Exploited? Really? Cheap labor in some countries get's exploited. Some companies exploit the tax system. Me buying 1st party products? It's really not the same and shouldn't be used in that context.
I'm an adult customer. I make an informed decision wether a product from a company is worth my own, hard earned money. I know that everything GW does is meant as an incentive for me to consume more. I'm aware GW is not my friend.
How is GW exploiting me?
They overcharge you, they make no effort to produce good or balanced rules sets, they engage in predatory FOMO releases. Just because you THINK you're not being exploited doesn't mean you aren't.
Funny that someone mentioned nuance about the issue and then you only present the extremes and point to other companies as some kind of whataboutism when in my original point I said that not buying from GW would work because its NOT a huge corporation that exploits third world workers (though their clothing IS made in Bangladesh).
In any case I don't see why you need to defend them. What does it gain you? Taking a stand against their practices can only help the community as a whole. Look at what happened when Ubisoft released Shadow Of War and had micro-transactions in the game, it was so universally hated they actually removed them. Almost like if a bunch of consumers decide "hey, we're not going to buy your thing because what you're doing is gakky and unfair" then the people losing money for doing a gakky thing will actually listen to them.
But sure, you've decided that YOU'RE happy, so why try to improve anything for anyone else right?
Oh dear. How did a discussion of GW business practice get to "gakky" "so you think you're being clever" "mindless drones" and "think you're being edgy"?
stroller wrote: Oh dear. How did a discussion of GW business practice get to "gakky" "so you think you're being clever" "mindless drones" and "think you're being edgy"?
The division in the online community between "GW are making stuff I like and I'm capable of deciding what is of value to me" and "screw GW I'll go buy recasts, download PDF's and hope the game dies while I still play it to teach them a lesson" is slowly growing and it's a stance that seems to be slowly moving further away from each other.
GW has some rubbishy business practices for sure, but they do what they know works and makes them record profits year on year, I think anyone promoting exclusively buying 3rd party or pirating until GW "learn their lesson" is probably more of an issue since I'd rather some money make it back into the company to support the continued existence of the game and pay for the staff.
There's nothing wrong with buying GW products if you find value or appeal in them, you're certainly not being exploited. There's nothing wrong with adding in some 3rd party to enhance your army or support other artists. But neither is "better" than the other. The worse business practices are again, just proven attempts to maximise profits from people who find value in their product.
The issue I have is that from our POV as customers the crappy business practices are just crappy. We don't have to consider whether it makes GW more profit, it it's not good for us then that's all that matters. GW doesn't care about us, we shouldn't care about GW either.
But also, I think deciding that you don't like a business and therefore refusing to give them your money and finding alternatives is always completely acceptable.
Sim-Life wrote: [1] They overcharge you, [2] they make no effort to produce good or balanced rules sets, [3] they engage in predatory FOMO releases. [4] Just because you THINK you're not being exploited doesn't mean you aren't.
[1] It is pretty much my personal decision wether I want to pay the asking price for a spare time product, isn't it? If GW prices me out of the hobby, I'll stop buying. If they offer a product that I think it is not worth the money, I won't buy it.
[2] Subjective again. I'm having fun with the current rules. I didn't have fun with 6th and 7th edition. I stopped playing back then, I started again in 8th. For my situation the rules got better to point where they are good enough again to be enjoyable.
[3] Prior to this conversation I didn't know what FOMO meant and having looked through it now on German and English Wikipedia I have to say... I don't agree that a product like the Beast Snagga box is 100% FOMO. Apart from a codex with a changed cover, you will be able to get everything at a later point with no problems. If missing out on limited time promotional offers (where the only truly unique thing about is the price) is causing you to be more than annoyed for a few minutes, maybe you put more emotion into it than it is worth it.
[4] Please educate me what else I have to consider and be aware about before you won't tell me that I'm being exploited anymore.
Sim-Life wrote: [1] Funny that someone mentioned nuance about the issue and then you only present the extremes and point to other companies as some kind of whataboutism when in my original point I said that not buying from GW would work because its NOT a huge corporation that exploits third world workers (though their clothing IS made in Bangladesh).
[2] In any case I don't see why you need to defend them. What does it gain you? Taking a stand against their practices can only help the community as a whole. [3] Look at what happened when Ubisoft released Shadow Of War and had micro-transactions in the game, it was so universally hated they actually removed them. Almost like if a bunch of consumers decide "hey, we're not going to buy your thing because what you're doing is gakky and unfair" then the people losing money for doing a gakky thing will actually listen to them.
But sure, you've decided that YOU'RE happy, so why try to improve anything for anyone else right?
[1] This has nothing to do with whataboutism or extremes at all. Look up the definition of exploit and then think about wether a company offering a product which you are free to accept or decline without any negative impact for yourself and many (cheaper) alternatives available is fitting that description. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exploit The examples I brought up is to show you how radical (and imho ridicoulus) your used language is.
[2] I don't like or dislike GW particularely. For the time being they offer something that I'm willing to purchase and use. It is less about defending GW and more about countering some BS argumentation that everybody who buys 1st party is a mindless drone who gets exploited.
[3] The grind or paywall gated endgame content of Shadow of War was a whole different pile of gak and just as I fail to see how I'm being exploited, I fail to see how gakkery on that level is even remotely connected to what GW does.
Sim-Life wrote: [1] They overcharge you, [2] they make no effort to produce good or balanced rules sets, [3] they engage in predatory FOMO releases. [4] Just because you THINK you're not being exploited doesn't mean you aren't.
[1] It is pretty much my personal decision wether I want to pay the asking price for a spare time product, isn't it? If GW prices me out of the hobby, I'll stop buying. If they offer a product that I think it is not worth the money, I won't buy it.
[2] Subjective again. I'm having fun with the current rules. I didn't have fun with 6th and 7th edition. I stopped playing back then, I started again in 8th. For my situation the rules got better to point where they are good enough again to be enjoyable.
[3] Prior to this conversation I didn't know what FOMO meant and having looked through it now on German and English Wikipedia I have to say... I don't agree that a product like the Beast Snagga box is 100% FOMO. Apart from a codex with a changed cover, you will be able to get everything at a later point with no problems. If missing out on limited time promotional offers (where the only truly unique thing about is the price) is causing you to be more than annoyed for a few minutes, maybe you put more emotion into it than it is worth it.
[4] Please educate me what else I have to consider and be aware about before you won't tell me that I'm being exploited anymore.
Sim-Life wrote: [1] Funny that someone mentioned nuance about the issue and then you only present the extremes and point to other companies as some kind of whataboutism when in my original point I said that not buying from GW would work because its NOT a huge corporation that exploits third world workers (though their clothing IS made in Bangladesh).
[2] In any case I don't see why you need to defend them. What does it gain you? Taking a stand against their practices can only help the community as a whole. [3] Look at what happened when Ubisoft released Shadow Of War and had micro-transactions in the game, it was so universally hated they actually removed them. Almost like if a bunch of consumers decide "hey, we're not going to buy your thing because what you're doing is gakky and unfair" then the people losing money for doing a gakky thing will actually listen to them.
But sure, you've decided that YOU'RE happy, so why try to improve anything for anyone else right?
[1] This has nothing to do with whataboutism or extremes at all. Look up the definition of exploit and then think about wether a company offering a product which you are free to accept or decline without any negative impact for yourself and many (cheaper) alternatives available is fitting that description. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exploit The examples I brought up is to show you how radical (and imho ridicoulus) your used language is.
[2] I don't like or dislike GW particularely. For the time being they offer something that I'm willing to purchase and use. It is less about defending GW and more about countering some BS argumentation that everybody who buys 1st party is a mindless drone who gets exploited.
[3] The grind or paywall gated endgame content of Shadow of War was a whole different pile of gak and just as I fail to see how I'm being exploited, I fail to see how gakkery on that level is even remotely connected to what GW does.
Beautiful. Great post.
And now we wait for someone to claim that buying citadel miniatures is the same as buying meth from a drug dealer.
Sim-Life wrote: [1] They overcharge you, [2] they make no effort to produce good or balanced rules sets, [3] they engage in predatory FOMO releases. [4] Just because you THINK you're not being exploited doesn't mean you aren't.
[1] It is pretty much my personal decision wether I want to pay the asking price for a spare time product, isn't it? If GW prices me out of the hobby, I'll stop buying. If they offer a product that I think it is not worth the money, I won't buy it.
[2] Subjective again. I'm having fun with the current rules. I didn't have fun with 6th and 7th edition. I stopped playing back then, I started again in 8th. For my situation the rules got better to point where they are good enough again to be enjoyable.
[3] Prior to this conversation I didn't know what FOMO meant and having looked through it now on German and English Wikipedia I have to say... I don't agree that a product like the Beast Snagga box is 100% FOMO. Apart from a codex with a changed cover, you will be able to get everything at a later point with no problems. If missing out on limited time promotional offers (where the only truly unique thing about is the price) is causing you to be more than annoyed for a few minutes, maybe you put more emotion into it than it is worth it.
[4] Please educate me what else I have to consider and be aware about before you won't tell me that I'm being exploited anymore.
Sim-Life wrote: [1] Funny that someone mentioned nuance about the issue and then you only present the extremes and point to other companies as some kind of whataboutism when in my original point I said that not buying from GW would work because its NOT a huge corporation that exploits third world workers (though their clothing IS made in Bangladesh).
[2] In any case I don't see why you need to defend them. What does it gain you? Taking a stand against their practices can only help the community as a whole. [3] Look at what happened when Ubisoft released Shadow Of War and had micro-transactions in the game, it was so universally hated they actually removed them. Almost like if a bunch of consumers decide "hey, we're not going to buy your thing because what you're doing is gakky and unfair" then the people losing money for doing a gakky thing will actually listen to them.
But sure, you've decided that YOU'RE happy, so why try to improve anything for anyone else right?
[1] This has nothing to do with whataboutism or extremes at all. Look up the definition of exploit and then think about wether a company offering a product which you are free to accept or decline without any negative impact for yourself and many (cheaper) alternatives available is fitting that description. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exploit The examples I brought up is to show you how radical (and imho ridicoulus) your used language is.
[2] I don't like or dislike GW particularely. For the time being they offer something that I'm willing to purchase and use. It is less about defending GW and more about countering some BS argumentation that everybody who buys 1st party is a mindless drone who gets exploited.
[3] The grind or paywall gated endgame content of Shadow of War was a whole different pile of gak and just as I fail to see how I'm being exploited, I fail to see how gakkery on that level is even remotely connected to what GW does.
Incidently if you really do dislike what GW is doing, maybe stop supporting their products... maybe I dunno... go play another game and stop thinking about it?
Seriously, if you don't like warhammer 40lk thats ok, but if you don't have anything to contribute to the conversations beyond "dur you're a sheep for buying from them you suck, GW sucks, your mom sucks" etc... then stop trolling and go away
Sim-Life wrote: [1] They overcharge you, [2] they make no effort to produce good or balanced rules sets, [3] they engage in predatory FOMO releases. [4] Just because you THINK you're not being exploited doesn't mean you aren't.
[1] It is pretty much my personal decision wether I want to pay the asking price for a spare time product, isn't it? If GW prices me out of the hobby, I'll stop buying. If they offer a product that I think it is not worth the money, I won't buy it.
[2] Subjective again. I'm having fun with the current rules. I didn't have fun with 6th and 7th edition. I stopped playing back then, I started again in 8th. For my situation the rules got better to point where they are good enough again to be enjoyable.
[3] Prior to this conversation I didn't know what FOMO meant and having looked through it now on German and English Wikipedia I have to say... I don't agree that a product like the Beast Snagga box is 100% FOMO. Apart from a codex with a changed cover, you will be able to get everything at a later point with no problems. If missing out on limited time promotional offers (where the only truly unique thing about is the price) is causing you to be more than annoyed for a few minutes, maybe you put more emotion into it than it is worth it.
[4] Please educate me what else I have to consider and be aware about before you won't tell me that I'm being exploited anymore.
Sim-Life wrote: [1] Funny that someone mentioned nuance about the issue and then you only present the extremes and point to other companies as some kind of whataboutism when in my original point I said that not buying from GW would work because its NOT a huge corporation that exploits third world workers (though their clothing IS made in Bangladesh).
[2] In any case I don't see why you need to defend them. What does it gain you? Taking a stand against their practices can only help the community as a whole. [3] Look at what happened when Ubisoft released Shadow Of War and had micro-transactions in the game, it was so universally hated they actually removed them. Almost like if a bunch of consumers decide "hey, we're not going to buy your thing because what you're doing is gakky and unfair" then the people losing money for doing a gakky thing will actually listen to them.
But sure, you've decided that YOU'RE happy, so why try to improve anything for anyone else right?
[1] This has nothing to do with whataboutism or extremes at all. Look up the definition of exploit and then think about wether a company offering a product which you are free to accept or decline without any negative impact for yourself and many (cheaper) alternatives available is fitting that description. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exploit The examples I brought up is to show you how radical (and imho ridicoulus) your used language is.
[2] I don't like or dislike GW particularely. For the time being they offer something that I'm willing to purchase and use. It is less about defending GW and more about countering some BS argumentation that everybody who buys 1st party is a mindless drone who gets exploited.
[3] The grind or paywall gated endgame content of Shadow of War was a whole different pile of gak and just as I fail to see how I'm being exploited, I fail to see how gakkery on that level is even remotely connected to what GW does.
Like all of this reads as "It doesn't affect me or fit my definition of exploitation because it's not extreme enough so I don't care".
Sim-Life wrote: Like all of this reads as "It doesn't affect me or fit my definition of exploitation because it's not extreme enough so I don't care".
Actually, he specifically asked you for your definition of exploitation that covers what GW is doing to you.
GW is exploiting FOMO with limited releases. That's all. It's not a major source of exploitation or a particularly big deal, just a kinda crummy business practice.
Sim-Life wrote: Like all of this reads as "It doesn't affect me or fit my definition of exploitation because it's not extreme enough so I don't care".
Unless I'm sleepwalking to edit articles on Merriam Webster, it is not my definition of exploit that does not fit the topic at hand. Like the other guy with their "definition" of Early Access, you can't just make up meaning of words on the spot to fit your narrative.
I totally understand why you used the word "exploit". It sounds more dramatic and gives weight to your argument. It is still wrong, though.
Da Boss wrote: The issue I have is that from our POV as customers the crappy business practices are just crappy. We don't have to consider whether it makes GW more profit, it it's not good for us then that's all that matters. GW doesn't care about us, we shouldn't care about GW either.
But also, I think deciding that you don't like a business and therefore refusing to give them your money and finding alternatives is always completely acceptable.
You're taking your subjective opinions and applying them to the entirety of a consumer base. Like any retail sale or promotional discount, it sucks if you miss out, GW isn't alone in this and I'm fairly sure you don't rage against every shop/brand that ever had a time/quantity limited discount.
Deciding you don't want to support a company is one thing but it's hard to say you support the game but would happily run the company making it into the ground, one doesn't exist without the other.
I mean, yeah? I never said what I was writing was the objective truth. Definitely just my view on things. Sorry for using "we", but that's just also my opinion.
Also, please don't characterise what I'm doing as rage. I see this all the time on Dakkadakka, where any negative opinion is characterised in really extreme terms because it's much easier to argue against someone who is "raging" about something trivial. I'm not angry at all, I feel really chill about all of this. I'm just making the decision not to support this practice because I don't like it. And yeah, I do that with lots of companies. GW is nowhere near the top of the list of unethical companies that I don't want to support in their unethical practices. And I do that without feeling particularly angry about any of it - there's a lot of things I do feel angry about but they're generally not related to consumer choices. But this is a forum primarily about discussing GW games so I'll bring up any practice of theirs I like or dislike here because that's what this board is for, discussing their products. I'm not talking to anyone else in my life about this stuff because it's absolutely trivial.
As to game vs. company I just see it differently. If GW went bankrupt tomorrow we'd still be able to play the game, fan made versions would exist and most likely another company would buy out the IP and keep making the game. That's what usually happens in these cases. The current corporate structure of GW would go away but I am pretty confident that the IP would continue to be available for purchase if anyone wanted it to be, and if not, fan made versions would continue to exist.
Having said that, because apparently I need to be very careful not to have my arguments mischaracterised, I'm not really concerned about GW going bust in either direction. I don't worry about it. That's really up to them. If they make stuff I want at a price I find reasonable in a way I find acceptable or pleasant to purchase, I'll happily buy it. When they degrade my experience as a customer through making their product less valuable (changing the rules too often or having poor quality rules) or too expensive or make the process of purchasing stuff too annoying or manipulative, then I don't. At no time do I feel angry at GW, maybe mildly irritated that they are not a better company to interact with, but there's plenty of fish in the wargaming sea and this stuff is an utterly trivial luxury good so it's not worth getting angry about.
Da Boss wrote: I mean, yeah? I never said what I was writing was the objective truth. Definitely just my view on things. Sorry for using "we", but that's just also my opinion.
Also, please don't characterise what I'm doing as rage. I see this all the time on Dakkadakka, where any negative opinion is characterised in really extreme terms because it's much easier to argue against someone who is "raging" about something trivial. I'm not angry at all, I feel really chill about all of this. I'm just making the decision not to support this practice because I don't like it. And yeah, I do that with lots of companies. GW is nowhere near the top of the list of unethical companies that I don't want to support in their unethical practices. And I do that without feeling particularly angry about any of it - there's a lot of things I do feel angry about but they're generally not related to consumer choices. But this is a forum primarily about discussing GW games so I'll bring up any practice of theirs I like or dislike here because that's what this board is for, discussing their products. I'm not talking to anyone else in my life about this stuff because it's absolutely trivial.
As to game vs. company I just see it differently. If GW went bankrupt tomorrow we'd still be able to play the game, fan made versions would exist and most likely another company would buy out the IP and keep making the game. That's what usually happens in these cases. The current corporate structure of GW would go away but I am pretty confident that the IP would continue to be available for purchase if anyone wanted it to be, and if not, fan made versions would continue to exist.
Having said that, because apparently I need to be very careful not to have my arguments mischaracterised, I'm not really concerned about GW going bust in either direction. I don't worry about it. That's really up to them. If they make stuff I want at a price I find reasonable in a way I find acceptable or pleasant to purchase, I'll happily buy it. When they degrade my experience as a customer through making their product less valuable (changing the rules too often or having poor quality rules) or too expensive or make the process of purchasing stuff too annoying or manipulative, then I don't. At no time do I feel angry at GW, maybe mildly irritated that they are not a better company to interact with, but there's plenty of fish in the wargaming sea and this stuff is an utterly trivial luxury good so it's not worth getting angry about.
Thank you for choosing to elaborate your stance, it seems more than reasonable and I hadn't assumed you to fall on the end of the "die company, die!" spectrum by any stretch, but they definitely exist out there while feverishly chasing the meta for some reason.
Some people definitely do take it all too seriously but I think we're just both fairly middle of the road customers with our own perspectives of value and that's good, this thread is far too heavily charged with the use of terms claiming exploitation etc though.
But sure, you've decided that YOU'RE happy, so why try to improve anything for anyone else right?
Honestly? 1) Because that'll likely lead to me being UN-happy. 2) I'm lazy. And doing that'll definitely involve more work & effort.
3) There are companies performing actual evil acts and you are very likely buying and using their product as well. GW is probably one of the weirdest places to start an anti-capitalist crusade.
It's not anticapitalism, it's just better capitalism. Discerning customers and competition improves outcomes for all of us. You can believe in capitalism and think anti-consumer policies are stupid.
Edit to add: Cheers Dudeface, I was a bit irritated because I'd been accused of being hysterical or raging for expressing mild worry or disapproval in a few threads recently so I was a bit oversensitive to it I suppose.
FWIW though I do consider FOMO marketing a mild form of exploitation. Not serious, definitely not something I feel should be legislated against or anything like that, but it's unpleasant for me and I don't like it, so I've made a conscious decision to avoid any FOMO based sets. If I find out something is a limited release I pretty much immediately cool on it.
I really hope GW gets some real competition. Competition leads to better outcomes for customers and wargames as a niche are plenty large enough to sustain multiple companies, GW wouldn't be destroyed as a company.
kirotheavenger wrote: I really hope GW gets some real competition. Competition leads to better outcomes for customers and wargames as a niche are plenty large enough to sustain multiple companies, GW wouldn't be destroyed as a company.
This is the best and real solution, I wish Mantic could up their game a little as they're maybe the best positioned to become the alternate GW in terms of scope of game and model range for analogues. but any company offering a similar product at a close quality at a close price will give them pause for thought. Especially if they are appropriate proxies.
It's pretty tough to outdo GW on the model front but any competitor needs to at least achieve a certain bar of quality. Mantic too often misses that bar with their stuff (and I have a lot of mantic stuff, but I'm pretty selective about what I pick).
I also think some of their offerings just aren't very creative? Space Skaven was something a lot of people said they wanted, but the implementation from Mantic was not what I wanted - just high tech cartoon rats in space wasn't what I imagined space skaven to be at all. I've seen better kitbashes here on dakka for that concept.
But there's a lot of competition in the tabletop wargame space at the moment. The choice available to consumers is awesome. It's one of the reasons I've been moving to more model agnostic games, so that I can pick and choose the coolest stuff available to make use of.
And now we wait for someone to claim that buying citadel miniatures is the same as buying meth from a drug dealer.
Meth is more environmentally friendly than plastic toys probably
As for piracy, let's not forget that online distribution with regular sales and introduction of streaming services nearly stopped piracy for digital products. People will pay if they feel the product is worth paying for.
I find that most people don't actually mind how top-notch their models are, they want to play a fun game and if their infantry has slightly less crisp detailing they can look past that.
In fact the soft PVC Legion kits seem to be better received in by many over the more complex to assemble styrene kits.
kirotheavenger wrote: I find that most people don't actually mind how top-notch their models are, they want to play a fun game and if their infantry has slightly less crisp detailing they can look past that.
It totally depends of customer base. I have a girl friend that is absolutely into tabletop games and she spends a ton of money in boxes. I'm full into the wargame camp. For her, fun and rules are above all, and even if she likes nice miniatures, she is used to a much lesser quality fo them. I don't. I mean, I also love good rules (I write rulesets as a hobby), but I'm much more into the visual aspect of the game, so if a boardgame is just full of tokens and cardboards, maybe I'll play it, but it is not my preference, and I'm much more willing to pay more for better miniatures (Thats why I bought creature casters demon prince of war to use as a daemon prince of khorne even if GW miniature is less than half the cost).
But is just a reality that cheaper but "nice enough" alternatives will always be more popular than end of the line products. For miniatures and for everything.
But sure, you've decided that YOU'RE happy, so why try to improve anything for anyone else right?
Honestly?
1) Because that'll likely lead to me being UN-happy.
2) I'm lazy. And doing that'll definitely involve more work & effort.
3) There are companies performing actual evil acts and you are very likely buying and using their product as well. GW is probably one of the weirdest places to start an anti-capitalist crusade.
Agree. Whatever the sins of the oil companies I still have to put fuel in the car & farm vehicles. etc.
Any such effort I'd make will be directed towards something that's actually a real problem.
Crusading against a toy company with high prices offering extremely limited time/quantity deals that writes rules of questionable quality ? Not on my to do list. If they get too bad my answer is simple - "pass".
But sure, you've decided that YOU'RE happy, so why try to improve anything for anyone else right?
Honestly?
1) Because that'll likely lead to me being UN-happy.
2) I'm lazy. And doing that'll definitely involve more work & effort.
3) There are companies performing actual evil acts and you are very likely buying and using their product as well. GW is probably one of the weirdest places to start an anti-capitalist crusade.
Agree. Whatever the sins of the oil companies I still have to put fuel in the car & farm vehicles. etc.
Any such effort I'd make will be directed towards something that's actually a real problem.
Crusading against a toy company with high prices offering extremely limited time/quantity deals that writes rules of questionable quality ? Not on my to do list. If they get too bad my answer is simple - "pass".
What can you realistically do again Exxon Mobil though? Again, the ENTIRE POINT of my initial post is that GW is small enough that enough people opting out of buying their stuff has an effect on them. Enough people left during 7th that the completely overhauled the game.
Sim-Life wrote: What can you realistically do again Exxon Mobil though? Again, the ENTIRE POINT of my initial post is that GW is small enough that enough people opting out of buying their stuff has an effect on them. Enough people left during 7th that the completely overhauled the game.
Sorry, but GW and the 40k community isn't as small as you think. If you managed to get all of the people actively participating in only communities to not buy the box, it would still have been sold out by now.
Not to mention that vast parts of GW's customers probably don't know or care that the beast snagga box was up for preorder.