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Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 02:43:30


Post by: Cloud Stalkers


How similar are Space Marines between different Chapters? What I'm trying to de-construct here is: Are the base SMs default across the Imperium and then they add their Chapters special characterstics or fighting styles?

Let's take a Ultramarines which are highly disciplined, well rounded with no mutations vs a Minotaurs who are famed for ther vicious close combat fighting style and uncaring nature.

Also on a side note, which chapter do you think would have an advantage 1vs1 in the Imperium as loyalist.

*Perhaps Minotaurs who specialise in fighting other SMs.

Tactics vs. Strenght vs Ferociy?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 11:08:47


Post by: Gert


Nearly all Chapters will use the Codex Astartes as a baseline for their organisation or tactics, altering it here or there to suit their culture or tactics. The Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists are known as some of the most adherent Chapters of the Codex but also still apply its teachings in their own ways. The IF will apply the Codex to improve their defensive capabilites and the CF previously had to adapt the Codex to suit their severely depleted numbers.
The reason the Minotaurs are so effective is that they only use overwhelming force. For example during the Badab War, their entire Chapter deployed unlike the majority of Imperial forces who only deployed taskforces.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 11:57:04


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Yeah, it's heavily implied that the Minotaurs were the High Lords of Terra personal army of Marines, hence why they had such good equipment and such numbers


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 14:48:55


Post by: Catulle


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, it's heavily implied that the Minotaurs were the High Lords of Terra personal army of Marines, hence why they had such good equipment and such numbers


The idea that the High Lords could agree on anything to that degree boggles the mind, and yet being being a collective of fascists, I can definitely see them doing a Wannsee and the Minotaurs being what got shat out of the other end.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 14:59:37


Post by: Gert


Space Marines are noted for their freedom from the standard Imperial command structure. The premier Imperial military faction can realistically at any point refuse any orders given by the High Lords, which is something the High Lords cannot have. So they have their attack dogs to keep the other Chapters in line. Not that it works because the Minotaurs are banned from Ultramar by the order of Calgar and a huge chunk of the Ultramarines Successors flat out refuse to fight alongside the Minotaurs.
Hell, the whole cause of the Badab War was mortal bureaucrats interfering with Astartes autonomy and the High Lords being too afraid of political ramifications to properly "fund" adequate forces to patrol the Maelstrom Zone and keep the Warders from being stretched too thin. The entire Badab War could have been avoided if the Karthago Trade Lords hadn't been greedy and the High Lords had been more invested in the protection of the Imperium than their own political ambitions then maybe Huron wouldn't have become disillusioned and fallen to Chaos. As always the Imperium is its own worst enemy.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 15:50:03


Post by: Hecaton


Catulle wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, it's heavily implied that the Minotaurs were the High Lords of Terra personal army of Marines, hence why they had such good equipment and such numbers


The idea that the High Lords could agree on anything to that degree boggles the mind, and yet being being a collective of fascists, I can definitely see them doing a Wannsee and the Minotaurs being what got shat out of the other end.


I imagine that the only thing the High Lords agree on is that the authority of the High Lords must not be questioned.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 19:20:33


Post by: Catulle


Hecaton wrote:
Catulle wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, it's heavily implied that the Minotaurs were the High Lords of Terra personal army of Marines, hence why they had such good equipment and such numbers


The idea that the High Lords could agree on anything to that degree boggles the mind, and yet being being a collective of fascists, I can definitely see them doing a Wannsee and the Minotaurs being what got shat out of the other end.


I imagine that the only thing the High Lords agree on is that the authority of the High Lords must not be questioned.


Well, quite. Peak Fash, innit?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 19:38:45


Post by: StrayIight


It's likely going to depend on what circumstances are in play realistically. Certain chapters have specific talents, and as such, if said circumstance is part of the scenario, advantage them.

Purely neutral scenario though?

I'd have two thoughts. One, assuming the Emperor knew what he was doing, during the Heresy we see the Space Wolves kept in reserve until another Legion needed 'Sanctioning'. That's quite a clue as to who you might call on in a loyalist chapter, vs loyalist chapter scenario.
Two, assuming we're including them among the choices here (there are valid arguments not to), the Grey Knights. They're clearly very specialised, but in fluff it's also massively apparent that in terms of training they're supposed to be Astartes +++.

In terms of the wider point, I suspect there's not much to choose between generic marines outside of the specialist training or focuses a Chapter might have. Like any conventional military, you'll get some more, and some less, exceptional individuals. That might be influenced in 40K by the merits of a recruiting world? (What would we see if an Astartes were recruited from Catachan, as opposed to Necromunda for example?)


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 19:46:06


Post by: Catulle


 StrayIight wrote:
...during the Heresy we see the Space Wolves kept in reserve until another Legion needed 'Sanctioning'. That's quite a clue as to who you might call on in a loyalist chapter, vs loyalist chapter scenario.


Wear grey, use runes, enforce the leader's will...

The Wolves are the Waffen-SS.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 19:47:05


Post by: Gert


IMO the GK shouldn't count in situations like "Which Chapter would win?" because they're so far removed from what most people consider a Chapter.
They're basically a Chapter of 1st Companies that are mostly Terminators that also all happen to be Psykers. They've executed Chapters before as well and tend to not have moral quandaries about "is this the right thing to do?".


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 19:50:31


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Gert wrote:
IMO the GK shouldn't count in situations like "Which Chapter would win?" because they're so far removed from what most people consider a Chapter.
They're basically a Chapter of 1st Companies that are mostly Terminators that also all happen to be Psykers. They've executed Chapters before as well and tend to not have moral quandaries about "is this the right thing to do?".

Yeah they're not really your typical chapter. They are more like the Deathwatch; a group of specialists gathered for a specific purpose, except even more esoteric and specialized.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 19:51:39


Post by: Gert


Catulle wrote:

Wear grey, use runes, enforce the leader's will...

The Wolves are the Waffen-SS.

Just no.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 19:51:52


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Catulle wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
...during the Heresy we see the Space Wolves kept in reserve until another Legion needed 'Sanctioning'. That's quite a clue as to who you might call on in a loyalist chapter, vs loyalist chapter scenario.


Wear grey, use runes, enforce the leader's will...

The Wolves are the Waffen-SS.

Not everything in the IoM is a reference to the 3rd reich. They take more inspirations from other things, you know.
It arguably takes greater inspiration from the Holy Roman Empire, albeit one that's excessively theocratic and brutal with some other elements of oppressive regimes thrown in.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 19:56:25


Post by: Catulle


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Catulle wrote:
 StrayIight wrote:
...during the Heresy we see the Space Wolves kept in reserve until another Legion needed 'Sanctioning'. That's quite a clue as to who you might call on in a loyalist chapter, vs loyalist chapter scenario.


Wear grey, use runes, enforce the leader's will...

The Wolves are the Waffen-SS.

Not everything in the IoM is a reference to the 3rd reich. They take more inspirations from other things, you know.
It arguably takes greater inspiration from the Holy Roman Empire, albeit one that's excessively theocratic and brutal with some other elements of oppressive regimes thrown in.


For sure, but this one's a gimme.

Before the Horus Heresy stuff came out? Sure, it's up for grabs but after they're portrayed as the ultimate enforcers of the Emperor's will? Not so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Imperium is a fascist state; and it's okay to collect little fascist armies (even when you lose, everyone wins!) - one of the best things about 40k is that everyone sucks, so it's a perpetua' scrabble for the bottom .


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 20:06:28


Post by: Gert


Catulle wrote:


For sure, but this one's a gimme.

Before the Horus Heresy stuff came out? Sure, it's up for grabs but after they're portrayed as the ultimate enforcers of the Emperor's will? Not so much.


The Imperium is a fascist state; and it's okay to collect little fascist armies (even when you lose, everyone wins!) - one of the best things about 40k is that everyone sucks, so it's a perpetua' scrabble for the bottom .

All this shows is you don't know jack about both the Space Wolves and the Waffen SS.

Space Wolves - Army of indoctrinated super soldiers with some of the best weapons and equipment known to man who also happen to savage warriors. Despite their savage appearance and battlefield tactics the Wolves are in fact not terrible and possess a deep sense of honour which is not reserved for Astartes alone. Mortal forces are often held in high regard by the Wolves. Wore grey armour during the Crusade and Heresy, changed to a blue-ish tint post-Heresy.

Waffen SS - Army of mostly foreign volunteers who were massive racists/anti-semites who were often not professional soldiers at all and really only existed to be terrorists. Wore as much grey as the regular Wehrmacht forces and even then tended to wear camo uniforms. Hated by literally everyone including the Wehrmacht.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 21:00:22


Post by: Catulle


 Gert wrote:
Catulle wrote:


For sure, but this one's a gimme.

Before the Horus Heresy stuff came out? Sure, it's up for grabs but after they're portrayed as the ultimate enforcers of the Emperor's will? Not so much.


The Imperium is a fascist state; and it's okay to collect little fascist armies (even when you lose, everyone wins!) - one of the best things about 40k is that everyone sucks, so it's a perpetua' scrabble for the bottom .

All this shows is you don't know jack about both the Space Wolves and the Waffen SS.

Space Wolves - Army of indoctrinated super soldiers with some of the best weapons and equipment known to man who also happen to savage warriors. Despite their savage appearance and battlefield tactics the Wolves are in fact not terrible and possess a deep sense of honour which is not reserved for Astartes alone. Mortal forces are often held in high regard by the Wolves. Wore grey armour during the Crusade and Heresy, changed to a blue-ish tint post-Heresy.

Waffen SS - Army of mostly foreign volunteers who were massive racists/anti-semites who were often not professional soldiers at all and really only existed to be terrorists. Wore as much grey as the regular Wehrmacht forces and even then tended to wear camo uniforms. Hated by literally everyone including the Wehrmacht.


Mmm hmm.

Still Fash as feth, aren't they, however nice they may appear?

But please, explain away how these misunderstood heroes etc. etc. etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Oh, but we have HONOUR" is literally the rallying call of every fascist about to do a terrible thing, ever.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 21:16:57


Post by: Gert


Doesn't make the Wolves the SS though does it?

Regardless it doesn't matter because the Wolves were only executioners during the Crusade era. Now they aren't and follow different tactics. The executioner role would fall to the Grey Knights for most cases.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 21:27:41


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Didn't the Romans and Medieval Europe do the same thing anyway? Send a military force to execute or arrest a traitor, who was usually protected by his own forces? Pretty sure most Roman Civil Wars involved that.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 21:40:18


Post by: Gert


I mean nations still do it now. Wasn't one lad that went after Bin-Laden it was like 20 US Marines.
For a HVT mission where you need a confirmed kill you send an execution force.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 21:43:09


Post by: Catulle


 Gert wrote:
Doesn't make the Wolves the SS though does it?

Regardless it doesn't matter because the Wolves were only executioners during the Crusade era. Now they aren't and follow different tactics. The executioner role would fall to the Grey Knights for most cases.


In the sense that they're the Emperor's chosen murderbastards? Totally.

The wolves are *awful* - like the guys chosen to purge the other guys just like them who weren't as compliant.

(And that's okay - the Imperium is meant to be terrible)


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/18 21:57:40


Post by: Gert


You're still going with this. OK then.

The Wolves were the Emperors chosen instruments to deal with the deadliest enemies the Imperium faced like Enslavers and other cosmic horrors. They might have destroyed one of the Lost Legions but its not confirmed.

The Waffen SS murdered innocent civilians and committed heinous warcrimes because of their dedication to a disgusting racial ideology. They weren't chosen for any reason other than the Nazis were scared because the Wehrmacht officers weren't party ideologues and didn't obey the Party without question.

So the Wolves fought actual monsters and Daemons whereas the SS were the monsters and Daemons.
I'm very much aware the Imperium is a fascist state. It has literally no bearing on your bad analogy.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 00:08:28


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Yeah, it's a pretty forced analogy. I really don't see the connection.
Maybe the Inquisition would be a better fit? But they are already meant to be, well, the Inquisition. I doubt the writers had the SS on their minds when they come up with them.
I just don't think the Imperium has an equivalent to those.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 08:21:02


Post by: harlokin


The waters were also muddied by the Rangdan Xenocides lore, where the Space Wolves are potrayed as a weapon the Emperor uses to threaten with, while the Dark Angels are used to employed to execute with the minimum of fuss.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 15:23:06


Post by: Tiennos


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, it's a pretty forced analogy. I really don't see the connection.
Maybe the Inquisition would be a better fit? But they are already meant to be, well, the Inquisition. I doubt the writers had the SS on their minds when they come up with them.
I just don't think the Imperium has an equivalent to those.
Pre-heresy Night Lords might be the closest thing if we really want to find an army that fits, but it's still a stretch.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 15:24:08


Post by: Gert


I would suggest we don't find a fit at all and instead try to discuss the OP's questions.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 18:41:30


Post by: Catulle


 Gert wrote:
You're still going with this. OK then.

The Wolves were the Emperors chosen instruments to deal with the deadliest enemies the Imperium faced like Enslavers and other cosmic horrors. They might have destroyed one of the Lost Legions but its not confirmed.

The Waffen SS murdered innocent civilians and committed heinous warcrimes because of their dedication to a disgusting racial ideology. They weren't chosen for any reason other than the Nazis were scared because the Wehrmacht officers weren't party ideologues and didn't obey the Party without question.

So the Wolves fought actual monsters and Daemons whereas the SS were the monsters and Daemons.
I'm very much aware the Imperium is a fascist state. It has literally no bearing on your bad analogy.


They also had crusade fleets which *checks* involved murdering innocent civilians along racial divides (Xenocide is a clear stand in for genocide). Fenris is the epitome of "foreign volunteers" i.e. a forceably colonised people producing bodies for the Imperial murder machine. Insofar as their role in the Heresy, yes, they were resented by the other Legions..

I would also encourage some caution regarding the clean Wehrmacht myth you appear (and knowing your record on other topics, I'm sure it's not deliberate) to give some credit to.

But you're right in that it's off topic and we should stop. I hope you don't begrudge me the right of reply, though.

Pals?

E: Speeling, grammur and auto corrupt.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 19:20:54


Post by: Gert


Catulle wrote:
They also had crusade fleets which *checks* involved murdering innocent civilians along racial divides (Xenocide is a clear stand in for genocide).

Context is important though. The Nazis committed genocide because they believed they were superior to certain peoples, the Imperium commits Xenocide (and yes sometimes genocide) because those Xenos races are an actual military threat not a made-up cultural one.
The Imperium even had protectorates during the Crusade era as it was presented as an option for the Interex, a human civilisation mixed with Xenos, to join the Imperium. There are Xenos tolerated in the Imperium it was just that most had at the time of the Crusade already engaged in conflict with humanity.

Fenris is the epitome of "foreign volunteers" i.e. a forceably colonised people producing bodies for the Imperial murder machine.

That's not volunteers then, is it?

Insofar as their role in the Heresy, yes, they were resented by the other Legions.

No more so than anyone else was. I would even go as far to say that resentment between the Legions was just day-to-day business. Were the Wolves and Russ feared because of their previous actions? Yeah sure but again no more than Kurze and the Night Lords or Angron and the World Eaters.

I would also encourage some caution regarding the clean Wehrmacht myth you appear (and knowing your record on other topics, I'm sure it's not deliberate) to give some credit to.

Except I didn't even come close to repeating such nonsense. You said the Wolves were hated, I disagreed. The Waffen SS were hated by the regular army who saw them as a waste of equipment. The OKW tried to prevent them from getting the equipment they required in 1939 before WW2 even started. The creation and expansion of the Waffen SS was even one of the reasons why Von Stauffenberg and other Wehrmacht officers attempted Operation Valkyrie, as they saw more military decisions made by politicians like Hitler and Himmler than seasoned generals.

Watch "Valkyrie", it's very good.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 19:49:26


Post by: Catulle


 Gert wrote:
Catulle wrote:
They also had crusade fleets which *checks* involved murdering innocent civilians along racial divides (Xenocide is a clear stand in for genocide).

Context is important though. The Nazis committed genocide because they believed they were superior to certain peoples, the Imperium commits Xenocide (and yes sometimes genocide) because those Xenos races are an actual military threat not a made-up cultural one.[\quote]
Oh dear. Please don't tell me you're taking a space-fascist (within the fiction) on their word for what constitutes a military threat... you know better than that.

 Gert wrote:
The Imperium even had protectorates during the Crusade era as it was presented as an option for the Interex, a human civilisation mixed with Xenos, to join the Imperium. There are Xenos tolerated in the Imperium it was just that most had at the time of the Crusade already engaged in conflict with humanity.

*Slave* species, yes. Ask the Interex how that worked out... oh, wait...

 Gert wrote:
Fenris is the epitome of "foreign volunteers" i.e. a forceably colonised people producing bodies for the Imperial murder machine.

That's not volunteers then, is it?

I am a *long* way from believing the third reich practiced anything approaching ethical volunteerism.

 Gert wrote:
Insofar as their role in the Heresy, yes, they were resented by the other Legions.

No more so than anyone else was. I would even go as far to say that resentment between the Legions was just day-to-day business. Were the Wolves and Russ feared because of their previous actions? Yeah sure but again no more than Kurze and the Night Lords or Angron and the World Eaters.

The Night Lords and World Eaters were scorned by the other Legions, not feared enforcers of the Fuhrer's wrath. There's a narrative distinction there. From a civilian PoV, they're all awful... but that's rather the point, isn't it?

 Gert wrote:
I would also encourage some caution regarding the clean Wehrmacht myth you appear (and knowing your record on other topics, I'm sure it's not deliberate) to give some credit to.

Except I didn't even come close to repeating such nonsense. You said the Wolves were hated, I disagreed. The Waffen SS were hated by the regular army who saw them as a waste of equipment. The OKW tried to prevent them from getting the equipment they required in 1939 before WW2 even started. The creation and expansion of the Waffen SS was even one of the reasons why Von Stauffenberg and other Wehrmacht officers attempted Operation Valkyrie, as they saw more military decisions made by politicians like Hitler and Himmler than seasoned generals.

Watch "Valkyrie", it's very good.


In that degree I get you, and yet... see above for how the narrative constructs the Wolves as nordic-inspired fascist enforcers and think about how that plays given the rest of the context of the Imperium.

Valkyrie is... not bad. It's pretty soft on the Genman aristocracy and sails a bit close to the wind in terms of constructing history's maybe's into staunch opponents. Anthropoid is *excellent* though, having followed the operation's footsteps around Prague, can recommend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have somehow shitted up the formatting right good, so no idea how and I'm going to avoid messing with it in case I feth things up worse.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 20:15:31


Post by: Gert


Catulle wrote:
Oh dear. Please don't tell me you're taking a space-fascist (within the fiction) on their word for what constitutes a military threat... you know better than that.

No, I'm looking at the 8-foot tall brickhouse of green muscle and rage that is an Ork, or the spikey knife-eared sadists of the Drukhari, or the Enslavers or the Hrud or the Megarachnids.

I am a *long* way from believing the third reich practiced anything approaching ethical volunteerism.

The foreign SS groups weren't slaves or press-ganged like Ostbattalion's, they were local French, Belgian, Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, and non-ethnic Poles that were Nazis who volunteered to fight since they couldn't be recruited into regular army units. By the end of WW2, most SS divisions were made up of non-Germans.

The Night Lords and World Eaters were scorned by the other Legions, not feared enforcers of the Fuhrer's wrath. There's a narrative distinction there. From a civilian PoV, they're all awful... but that's rather the point, isn't it?

Any time Legion killing is mentioned outside of Tsons and Wolves books, it's not the Wolves the person is afraid of, it's just the Emperor. Sanguinius is afraid of what the Emperor will do if He finds out about the Red Thirst. Lorgar fears that the Emperor will cast him and the Word Bearers aside. Not the Wolves.

In that degree I get you, and yet... see above for how the narrative constructs the Wolves as nordic-inspired fascist enforcers and think about how that plays given the rest of the context of the Imperium.

The Nazis stole the Nordic runes. The Waffen SS were not inspired by Vikings, the Nazis just believed that Scandanavians were the closest thing to "Aryan" which was established in their ideology way before the SS came along.
Only specific parts of the Wolves history has them as the Emperor's executioners and they've been the Viking-Wolf Chapter for much longer.
Your analogy is still bad and nothing you have said has made it any better.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 20:53:06


Post by: Catulle


I *suspect* you may be accidentally occluding the fascist part of the wolves' identity and giving them too much credit (like Fenrisians strive to be marines, because they've been indoctrinated like real-world fascists, the fash doesn't spring forth from the womb) - and the Wolves-as-enforcers is definitely a theme running through the Imperium Secundus chain, the Blood Angels bit in re Cygnus and the World Eaters backstory down to the face-off.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 21:07:58


Post by: Gert


I'm taking them in context of the setting which you need to do as well. If you're going to be immensely obtuse and only shout about how fascist the Imperium is then you are never going to have a discussion.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 21:37:54


Post by: Tiennos


What makes the wolves fascists, though? If it's their loyalty to the Emperor, that applies to every other legion. It's not like Russ was the one Primarch who fanatically believed in the Emperor's vision while the others were just meekly following orders.

Does it say anywhere that the people of Fenris are totally into human superioriy or whatever? And that people from other worlds aren't?

You can't just say "they're fascists because the Imperium is fascist" without applying that same logic to all the others. What about the Iron Hands? With their whole "the flesh is weak" deal they're into some dubious purity stuff, does that make them SS too?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 21:59:50


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Is the Imperium even fascist? I always thought it as a Feudal Theocratic Oligarchy. How does the Imperium work economically, what is the relation between the state and corporations, and if the worlds have autonomy doesn't that make them more like vassals than subjects of a fascist empire?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 22:01:38


Post by: Gert


Feudal Theocratic Oligarchy is just a fancy way of saying fascist with religion.
Once you accept the Imperium and everyone else except the Nids are the bad guys it gets easier.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 22:03:55


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Gert wrote:
Feudal Theocratic Oligarchy is just a fancy way of saying fascist with religion.
Once you accept the Imperium and everyone else except the Nids are the bad guys it gets easier.

Seems awfully simplistic to me, but yeah they are pretty bad.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 22:36:21


Post by: Gert


Obviously there are good people within the Imperium but they aren't given space to flourish and make things better for people. Even when "good" people like Dragan Vangoritch get power the horrible state of the Imperium slowly drives them mad as they try to fix every single problem.
It depends on the view you take as well. From the top the Imperium is plentiful and full of beauty. From the underhive, life is cheap and fast so do what you want when you want, nobody cares if you live or die.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/19 23:17:42


Post by: Catulle


 Gert wrote:
Feudal Theocratic Oligarchy is just a fancy way of saying fascist with religion.
Once you accept the Imperium and everyone else except the Nids are the bad guys it gets easier.


This.

As much as we disagree on the specifics, I'm with Gert 100% on this.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/20 13:27:23


Post by: The Phazer


 harlokin wrote:
The waters were also muddied by the Rangdan Xenocides lore, where the Space Wolves are potrayed as a weapon the Emperor uses to threaten with, while the Dark Angels are used to employed to execute with the minimum of fuss.


Though I'd also say that's an example of before the "model" for the legions was finished, and the Dark Angels were sent primarily because they were the only legion at the time with the sheer manpower to do the job.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/20 13:54:07


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Gert wrote:
Obviously there are good people within the Imperium but they aren't given space to flourish and make things better for people. Even when "good" people like Dragan Vangoritch get power the horrible state of the Imperium slowly drives them mad as they try to fix every single problem.
It depends on the view you take as well. From the top the Imperium is plentiful and full of beauty. From the underhive, life is cheap and fast so do what you want when you want, nobody cares if you live or die.

Sorry, I wasn't entirely clear. I was referring more to describing the Imperium as fascist as a simplification, much in the same vein how people call Tau communist because they are a collectivist society (which is also a trait of fascism, funnily enough).
Calling them fascist instead of feudal doesn't reflect the medieval motif they have going on as well as that certain level of autonomy they grant planetary governors. When people hear fascist they don't think Medieval Europe in Space, they think Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain or Nazi Germany in Space, which gives a much different impression of the Imperium. Hence why I don't consider it to be an accurate classification.

I do agree that there are good people in the Imperium; in the fluff it makes the point of saying that Salamanders and Ultramarines tend to treat the mortal populace well. Furthermore, with the sheer number of worlds in the Imperium and the autonomy granted to them, it is not impossible for there to be at least one world that has a liberal democratic system of governance.
That still doesn't change the fact that the Imperium is led by a group of self-serving oligarchs overseeing a convoluted bureaucratic system with no concern for human life and nonsensical laws that don't really help anyone. Imagine if in Brazil instead of a man being executed due to a clerical error, an entire population gets wiped out. That is a possibility in the Imperium and that's just terrifying. It is also a good satire of politics.



Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/20 14:15:40


Post by: harlokin


 The Phazer wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
The waters were also muddied by the Rangdan Xenocides lore, where the Space Wolves are potrayed as a weapon the Emperor uses to threaten with, while the Dark Angels are used to employed to execute with the minimum of fuss.


Though I'd also say that's an example of before the "model" for the legions was finished, and the Dark Angels were sent primarily because they were the only legion at the time with the sheer manpower to do the job.


That may well be the case, but by the Rangdan campaign the Legions were all alread established and deployed; all the way up to the XXth.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/20 16:20:13


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't entirely clear. I was referring more to describing the Imperium as fascist as a simplification, much in the same vein how people call Tau communist because they are a collectivist society (which is also a trait of fascism, funnily enough).
Calling them fascist instead of feudal doesn't reflect the medieval motif they have going on as well as that certain level of autonomy they grant planetary governors. When people hear fascist they don't think Medieval Europe in Space, they think Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain or Nazi Germany in Space, which gives a much different impression of the Imperium. Hence why I don't consider it to be an accurate classification.

Firstly the only people who call T'au Communist are Imperial fanboys. They see the T'au as Communist because the Greater Good, or T'au'va, puts the collective before the individual and is, therefore, Communism, despite the T'au being very authoritarian and maintaining a rigid Caste system that is literally the core of its society. They aren't really Xenophobic but generally, non-T'au are considered inferior unless they explicitly prove otherwise.

Anyway, as for the Imperium. The way I look at the situation is by finding things like the Characteristics of Fascism and applying them to 40k. This will be long so I'll spoiler to save space:
Spoiler:

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism as determined by Lawrence Britt
1) Powerful and continuing Nationalism - This is pretty easy to see within the Imperium.
2) Disdain for Human Rights - This isn't explicit as humans are regarded as the supreme beings of the galaxy. However, in practice, the vast majority of humans live in horrid conditions and are treated like cattle rather than people.
3) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - I mean. Pretty obvious this one.
4) Supremacy of the Military - Again, obvious.
5) Rampant Sexism - This one is actually an anomaly since the Imperium isn't institutionally sexist. But considering the state of humanity, sex and gender aren't really a concern.
6) Controlled Mass Media - This one is a big yes.
7) Obsession with National Security - Another one. (see I did the DJ Khaled meme, I'm cool)
8) Religion and Government are Intertwined - The God-Emperor says hi.
9) Corporate Power is Protected - Corporations aren't really the same anymore but groups like the Rogue Traders, Chartist Captains, and entities like Trade Leagues (such as the Kathargo Trade Lords from Badab) hold a huge amount of power and influence.
10) Labor Power is Suppressed - The Imperium is pretty anti-Workers Union unless that Union can also double as soldiers and is formed around "patriotism".
11) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Technological innovation is banned and art has to either be religious or of powerful leaders. No paintings of sunny fields for you peasant!
12) Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Knock, knock, it's the Arbites.
13) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - By the boatload.
14) Fraudulent Elections - Are there even elections?

The aesthetic choice of Gothic architecture and Pig Latin language doesn't preclude the Imperium from being Fascist. It's just turned up to 1000 to the point of absurdity which was the initial ethos of the Imperium. It has so many dumb laws and stupid leaders but epitomises perfectly the concept of "too big to fail".

Spoiler:
I do agree that there are good people in the Imperium; in the fluff it makes the point of saying that Salamanders and Ultramarines tend to treat the mortal populace well. Furthermore, with the sheer number of worlds in the Imperium and the autonomy granted to them, it is not impossible for there to be at least one world that has a liberal democratic system of governance.
That still doesn't change the fact that the Imperium is led by a group of self-serving oligarchs overseeing a convoluted bureaucratic system with no concern for human life and nonsensical laws that don't really help anyone. Imagine if in Brazil instead of a man being executed due to a clerical error, an entire population gets wiped out. That is a possibility in the Imperium and that's just terrifying. It is also a good satire of politics.

That was the original point of the Imperium, it was a satire of super right-wing power fantasies. It took all of the dumb things about politics, militarism, and religion, cranked the levers, and put came the Imperium.
GW has less of the "wait that's super dumb" bits of background however, which is why you see so many 40k fans crying and screaming whenever you say the "Imperium is bad actually".


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/20 17:11:18


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Well, that's one definition of fascism. An improper one too, as that was taken from a modified version of Umberto Eco's list and was intended to be a criticism of George W Bush's administration. It's less an academic study of fascism and more of the political version of Malleus Malificarum. I wouldn't use it as a source of identification. Pretty sure his name in the original article was spelt "Laurence" too.

It's actually a very difficult subject to properly define that historians have been debating over since 1915. There is a consensus though that it is an Authoritarian force of government, though that in itself isn't enough to determine if a system is fascist.

I would argue though if that the member worlds are granted Autonomy and are to permitted to run as the governor wished, then the State could not be considered fascist.
According to Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism, the State is supposed to be "all-embracing" and "totalitarian", which would run contrary to the idea of giving worlds autonomy. We certainly would not see the shear variety of government systems and cultures in the Imperium that we do now.

I would also not limit 40k to a satire of right-wing policies; it's a satire of every horrible bit of human history, including Feudalism, the Inquisition and the Soviet Union.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/20 18:05:40


Post by: Hecaton


The Imperium genocides peaceful, harmless aliens, as well as humans who display birth defects. They are intentionally derivative of horrible regimes like the third reich. Calling them "nazis, but justified" like Gert is doing is exactly missing the point.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/20 18:32:01


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Hecaton wrote:
The Imperium genocides peaceful, harmless aliens, as well as humans who display birth defects. They are intentionally derivative of horrible regimes like the third reich. Calling them "nazis, but justified" like Gert is doing is exactly missing the point.

Not just the Third Reich, but also Sparta, and...most other civilizations come to think of it. It's only quite recently that we decided as a civilization to not to do that, and even then it still happens today. Not to mention the number of species we hunted / culled to extinction, which is more comparable to the Imperium's treatment of non-human lifeforms, imo.
Humans are messed up, which is kind of the point of the setting, really.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/20 18:50:26


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, that's one definition of fascism. An improper one too, as that was taken from a modified version of Umberto Eco's list and was intended to be a criticism of George W Bush's administration. It's less an academic study of fascism and more of the political version of Malleus Malificarum. I wouldn't use it as a source of identification. Pretty sure his name in the original article was spelt "Laurence" too.

Hardly improper if it encapsulates Fascism well. If you want we can just use the Wikipedia definition :
Spoiler:
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Opposed to liberalism, democracy, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far right within the traditional left–right spectrum.

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. A fascist state is led by a strong leader such as a dictator and a martial law government composed of the members of the governing fascist party to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views imperialism, political violence and war as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky (national economic self-sufficiency) through protectionist and economic interventionist policies. The extreme authoritarianism and nationalism of fascism often manifests a belief in racial "purity" or a "master race", usually synthesized with some variant of racism or bigotry of a demonized other; the idea of "purity" has motivated fascist regimes to commit massacres, forced sterilizations, genocides, mass killings or forced deportations against a perceived other.

Again the Imperium falls very neatly into this categorisation. Authoritarian? Check. Ultranationalist? Check. Suppression of opposition? Check. Regimented society? Check. One Party state? Check. Loves violence? Super check. Racial purity? Check.

Spoiler:
It's actually a very difficult subject to properly define that historians have been debating over since 1915. There is a consensus though that it is an Authoritarian force of government, though that in itself isn't enough to determine if a system is fascist.

Too bad the Imperium meets almost every single other requirement for what would be considered a Fascist regime.

Spoiler:
I would argue though if that the member worlds are granted Autonomy and are to permitted to run as the governor wished, then the State could not be considered fascist.

I would argue that the only reason Governors are allowed leeway with operational autonomy is due to the sheer size of the Imperium. If it consists of billions of worlds with trillions of inhabitants, there is a limit to the control the greater state will have on each world. However, every world must pay their tithe and must be loyal to the Imperium.
I would also say that you are vastly overstating how much freedom a Governor has to govern their world. The Administratum, Aribtes, Mechanicus, Ministorum, and potentially the Inquisition are all watching over the shoulder of each and every Governor, with any step out of line with the status quo, met with swift and painful retribution. A world might elect its Governor through a council of ministers but while those ministers might belong to different parties like the "Technocracist Guild" or "Defenders of Faith", they aren't going to oppose the Imperium or try to overthrow the Governor for an anti-Imperial replacement. Such cases are extremely rare.


Spoiler:
According to Mussolini's Doctrine of Fascism, the State is supposed to be "all-embracing" and "totalitarian", which would run contrary to the idea of giving worlds autonomy. We certainly would not see the shear variety of government systems and cultures in the Imperium that we do now.

Again, you're overstating the autonomy of Imperial worlds. An autonomous world could ignore their tithe requirements or even not worship the God-Emperor. The only organisation that could be described as autonomous are the Space Marines who actually can do whatever they want, they just usually don't. It's why the High Lords are so afraid of them, the Astartes and the Custodes are the two organisations within the Imperium that can't be outright commanded by any of the mortal High Lords.

Spoiler:
I would also not limit 40k to a satire of right-wing policies; it's a satire of every horrible bit of human history, including Feudalism, the Inquisition and the Soviet Union.

You are right with regards to wider 40k but the Imperium is a satire of right-wing power fantasies. The Imperium is Fascism ramped up to 1000 on a previously unseen scale
It could be compared to the Cardassian Empire from Star Trek (who were specifically modeled off Nazi Germany BTW), massively Xenophobic, expansionist, militarist but also crippled by internal politics between the military factions, surrounded by races and empires that hate them (rightly so because holy gak the Cardassians are bad) and slowly but surely doomed to death by either invasion or revolution. We could even go further by looking at the justice system and secret police. The Cardassian justice system has one verdict, guilty, and one punishment, death (by various painful means but always death). Court sessions are even streamed live to the public to enforce a culture of fear and obedience to the state. The secret police, the Obsidian Order, was known to be unrepentingly ruthless in its methods and was reportedly so efficient at information gathering that the Order would know what was on the table before a Cardassian even sit down for breakfast. While this last part is more for humour it does serve to highlight just how good the Order was.
In almost every instance you could replace Cardassian with Imperial and the results would be the same.

And before I get someone jumping in misrepresenting my words again, the Imperium is the bad guys who themselves believe they are justified in their actions.
I personally know they are the bad guys and their justifications are bunk however this is the Background Forum where the background is discussed.
Discussions would never go anywhere if all people did was say "the Imperium is bad" then everybody clapped.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/20 19:59:16


Post by: Castozor


The Imperium can't possibly be the bad guys because they are the "good guy" (rather, slightly less evil) human faction in 40k.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/20 21:29:36


Post by: BrianDavion


Catulle wrote:
I *suspect* you may be accidentally occluding the fascist part of the wolves' identity and giving them too much credit (like Fenrisians strive to be marines, because they've been indoctrinated like real-world fascists, the fash doesn't spring forth from the womb) - and the Wolves-as-enforcers is definitely a theme running through the Imperium Secundus chain, the Blood Angels bit in re Cygnus and the World Eaters backstory down to the face-off.


ferensians don't strive to be Marines. Most don't even know what a space marine IS


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/20 21:34:20


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Gert wrote:


Again the Imperium falls very neatly into this categorisation. Authoritarian? Check. Ultranationalist? Check. Suppression of opposition? Check. Regimented society? Check. One Party state? Check. Loves violence? Super check. Racial purity? Check.


I do believe that the Soviet Union and North Korea also fulfills that criteria. Whilst Racial Purity isn't exactly an outright Soviet doctrine they did commit genocide against the Tartars, Chechnen, Koreans and Ingush. North Korea does have a Racial Purity aspect and has been noted to commit infanticide against children suspected of having non-Korean heritage. So either they are fascist as well or that criteria is still insufficient.


I would argue that the only reason Governors are allowed leeway with operational autonomy is due to the sheer size of the Imperium. If it consists of billions of worlds with trillions of inhabitants, there is a limit to the control the greater state will have on each world. However, every world must pay their tithe and must be loyal to the Imperium.
I would also say that you are vastly overstating how much freedom a Governor has to govern their world. The Administratum, Aribtes, Mechanicus, Ministorum, and potentially the Inquisition are all watching over the shoulder of each and every Governor, with any step out of line with the status quo, met with swift and painful retribution. A world might elect its Governor through a council of ministers but while those ministers might belong to different parties like the "Technocracist Guild" or "Defenders of Faith", they aren't going to oppose the Imperium or try to overthrow the Governor for an anti-Imperial replacement. Such cases are extremely rare.

That doesn't sound unique to the Imperium or fascist states though, that sounds like something that is expected of a Feudal Vassal or a Soviet State. If their loyalty is found wanting they will be replaced. In fact, isn't that true of most governments? Is an American state allowed to secede or outright break federal law?


You are right with regards to wider 40k but the Imperium is a satire of right-wing power fantasies. The Imperium is Fascism ramped up to 1000 on a previously unseen scale

And yet there are Commissars and Valhallans, which are meant to be references to the Soviet Union, right down to the stereotypical wave tactics and Order 227. Furthermore, the game was released in the 80s, during the Cold War. I would find it highly unlikely if the writers didn't try to sneak in some satire of the USSR.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/20 22:14:54


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

I do believe that the Soviet Union and North Korea also fulfills that criteria. Whilst Racial Purity isn't exactly an outright Soviet doctrine they did commit genocide against the Tartars, Chechnen, Koreans and Ingush. North Korea does have a Racial Purity aspect and has been noted to commit infanticide against children suspected of having non-Korean heritage. So either they are fascist as well or that criteria is still insufficient.

North Korea sure as heck isn't Communist I can tell you that for a fact. And the USSR under Stalin comes very close to what I would call a Fascist system. In reality it doesn't matter because we are discussing the Imperium which very much fits the bill of a Fascist system of rule.

Spoiler:
That doesn't sound unique to the Imperium or fascist states though, that sounds like something that is expected of a Feudal Vassal or a Soviet State. If their loyalty is found wanting they will be replaced. In fact, isn't that true of most governments? Is an American state allowed to secede or outright break federal law?

Again, the USSR treads the line very very closely. I'd also like to point out I never claimed the Imperium was alone in its Fascist tendencies, just that it embodies them more than any other 40k race.
And there is also a distinct difference between a State seceding and an Imperial world/system seceding but considering how hot a topic the American Civil War is I'd rather not go into it.
As for loyalty to governments, if a UK cabinet minister is "disloyal" they are replaced whereas if an Imperial Governor is "disloyal", they get shot, their family gets shot, their friends get shot, their servants get turned into servitors and a new Governor is chosen with the threat of death hanging over their head.

Spoiler:
And yet there are Commissars and Valhallans, which are meant to be references to the Soviet Union, right down to the stereotypical wave tactics and Order 227. Furthermore, the game was released in the 80s, during the Cold War. I would find it highly unlikely if the writers didn't try to sneak in some satire of the USSR.

Political Officers are not unique to the USSR, in fact, the Russian Empire used them before the USSR even existed and MP's perform loads of similar duties. Many of the punishments we see for the Guard were practiced for years after the end of WW2 and many others are inspired by the punishments handed out to soldiers of the British Empire such as floggings. The Royal Military Police (or Provosts) of the British forces during the Peninsular War fill the same role as Commissars do.
The only thing Soviet about the Valhallans is the red stars and Ushankas. Their name isn't even a Russian myth, it's Scandanavian. As for the wave tactics, that wasn't a Red Army tactic, it just seemed like it was due to the colossal amount of manpower the Soviets could field. Enemy at the Gates was not accurate with its depiction of the Battle of Stalingrad.
Order 227 might be known as the "Not one step back!" order but in fact, it was Order 270 that first established this. 227 instead authorised the creation of Penal Battalions for each front and was intended to improve morale in the face of constant defeat. In reality, it proved detrimental to morale and the Penal Battalions were quietly phased out by October 1942.
And BTW, wave tactics and Penal Battalions are something that is applied to all of the Astra Militarum. That's how they win, through superior numbers and weight of fire.
The writers might have put some satire of the USSR in 40k but again it would be of totalitarian systems of government built on oppression. In its infancy, 40k was intended to poke fun at Thatcherism.
There is no single influence on the Imperium so dropping things like "but what about Catachans?" isn't going to prove your point about how it isn't a Fascist system. It is. Call it a Feudal Theocratic Oligarchy but in the end, it's still Fascism.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 03:31:42


Post by: Hecaton


 Castozor wrote:
The Imperium can't possibly be the bad guys because they are the "good guy" (rather, slightly less evil) human faction in 40k.


If you mean that seriously, I disagree. One, there's no reason the humans have to be the good guys, and two, how can they be the "less evil" faction when they're needlessly cruel?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 08:24:45


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


North Korea sure as heck isn't Communist I can tell you that for a fact. And the USSR under Stalin comes very close to what I would call a Fascist system.

Still doesn't make North Korea fascist. That is not its classification. Whilst the USSR was at it's worse under Stalin, it still retained many of its authoritarian aspects including discrimination against ethnic groups. It just didn't outright try to kill them like Stalin did.

 Gert wrote:


Political Officers are not unique to the USSR, in fact, the Russian Empire used them before the USSR even existed and MP's perform loads of similar duties. Many of the punishments we see for the Guard were practiced for years after the end of WW2 and many others are inspired by the punishments handed out to soldiers of the British Empire such as floggings. The Royal Military Police (or Provosts) of the British forces during the Peninsular War fill the same role as Commissars do.

Those political officers weren't called Commissars, were they? Commissar is quite clearly a reference to USSR political officers.

The only thing Soviet about the Valhallans is the red stars and Ushankas. Their name isn't even a Russian myth, it's Scandanavian. As for the wave tactics, that wasn't a Red Army tactic, it just seemed like it was due to the colossal amount of manpower the Soviets could field. Enemy at the Gates was not accurate with its depiction of the Battle of Stalingrad.

The Valhallans had Special Character named Chenkov, which is a Russian sounding name. He also had a rule that's supposed to represent attrition wave tactics. To me the inspiration is clear.
True, the Soviet Wave tactics are something of a myth, but that's part of pop-culture and 40k is built on pop-culture.

The writers might have put some satire of the USSR in 40k but again it would be of totalitarian systems of government built on oppression. In its infancy, 40k was intended to poke fun at Thatcherism.

Fair enough. It would have been the era to poke fun at Thatcher, yes.

There is no single influence on the Imperium so dropping things like "but what about Catachans?" isn't going to prove your point about how it isn't a Fascist system. It is. Call it a Feudal Theocratic Oligarchy but in the end, it's still Fascism.


Thanks, I will continue to call it a more accurate descriptor


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hecaton wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
The Imperium can't possibly be the bad guys because they are the "good guy" (rather, slightly less evil) human faction in 40k.


If you mean that seriously, I disagree. One, there's no reason the humans have to be the good guys, and two, how can they be the "less evil" faction when they're needlessly cruel?


Well, compared to demons and Dark Eldar they are sort of less evil.
That's really not saying much though.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 12:35:57


Post by: Tiberias


Hecaton wrote:
The Imperium genocides peaceful, harmless aliens, as well as humans who display birth defects. They are intentionally derivative of horrible regimes like the third reich. Calling them "nazis, but justified" like Gert is doing is exactly missing the point.


Jeez, this always comes up with you in these discussions. The point as you mentioned is that the imperium, even though it's utterly terrible, is less terrible than Chaos and the eternity of torment that awaits it's worshipers at the end of the line. It's less terrible than tyranids, who can not be argued with in any circumstance and it's way less terrible than dark eldar. The imperium is terrible and cruel because of it's dogmatism, stupidity and regression in technology. The dark eldar purposefully and willingly chose to be the worst sadists in the galaxy, even though another path (that of craftworld eldar) was shown and offered to them...they represent pure and utter evil.

So, and this is always misunderstood in these discussions, the interesting part about the imperium is that, despite being one of the worst theocratic regimes imaginable, it's still not as terrible as much of the other big threats lurking about within the galaxy....hence the grimdarkness of the setting we all enjoy. Recognizing and appreciating this fact from a storytelling perspective does not mean one is in favor of any form of fascism. It's a complete non sequitur.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 12:50:47


Post by: Da Boss


It's just a different kind of terrible. It's also related to how GW have turned Chaos into more and more of a flanderized version of themselves and removed any ambiguity from them. Much like how they made the Tau secretly evil due to the Ethereals or made the Hive Mind spiteful rather than just a huge hungry organism.

The Imperium fails because it is fascist. It's clearly part of the original background that the fascist crap the Imperium does is holding it back from actually succeeding, and that keeping the populace in miserable conditions and engaging in mass murder of dissidents and mutants is sabotaging their society. This is because that is also what happens IRL fascist societies.

The fact that later authors who were...more limited in their perspective came along and invented reasons why we absolutely have to do those things or we will lose so it's absolutely justified REALLY has unfortunately turned the setting from a satire and critique of fascism into something of an apologia for fascism. This makes me pretty sad and uncomfortable.

When I got into the game age 12 with very little political awareness, I was able to understand that the Imperium were the bad guys. The only way we could conceive of a good guy in the setting was someone who was rebelling against the Imperium to protect their people from it. The fact that this was the case made the setting much more interesting to me, and it was familiar to me from growing up reading stuff like Judge Dredd.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 13:07:31


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


I didn't see it as attempting to justify the Imperium, I saw it more of a clumsy attempt to make it more hopeless and tragic.
I suspect that the writers assumed that most people would understand the horror of the setting, that the Imperium has to function that way because it burnt so many bridges, made so many mistakes that it is literally the best the Imperium could do.
That should have been a horrifying prospect of the future, but something got lost along the way and people thought that it was instead a justification for the Imperium's rule and that they are in fact the heroes.

It's funny that you mention Judge Dredd, because there was a similar case where readers thought Mega City One's draconian measures were justified, hence why the America Arc was written.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 13:13:01


Post by: Tiberias


 Da Boss wrote:
It's just a different kind of terrible. It's also related to how GW have turned Chaos into more and more of a flanderized version of themselves and removed any ambiguity from them. Much like how they made the Tau secretly evil due to the Ethereals or made the Hive Mind spiteful rather than just a huge hungry organism.

The Imperium fails because it is fascist. It's clearly part of the original background that the fascist crap the Imperium does is holding it back from actually succeeding, and that keeping the populace in miserable conditions and engaging in mass murder of dissidents and mutants is sabotaging their society. This is because that is also what happens IRL fascist societies.

The fact that later authors who were...more limited in their perspective came along and invented reasons why we absolutely have to do those things or we will lose so it's absolutely justified REALLY has unfortunately turned the setting from a satire and critique of fascism into something of an apologia for fascism. This makes me pretty sad and uncomfortable.

When I got into the game age 12 with very little political awareness, I was able to understand that the Imperium were the bad guys. The only way we could conceive of a good guy in the setting was someone who was rebelling against the Imperium to protect their people from it. The fact that this was the case made the setting much more interesting to me, and it was familiar to me from growing up reading stuff like Judge Dredd.


Oh boy I'm getting flashbacks to the last time this was brought up in general discussion....

I agree with you generally except for the fact that the imperium is still portrayed as unambiguously evil imo. Everyone with a half working brain can recognize that.
Guilliman for example is presented as a hopeful figure for the imperium....and he is, because even though he is a genocidal warlord even by crusade era standards, he almost appears like saint compared to the imperium in 40k. Which really doesn't paint the imperium in a good light.

So I think the imperium has always been portrayed as stupidly evil, but there are even more evil factions in 40k. Which is the whol shtick of the setting....nobody is a good guy here, there is just different shades of terrible.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 13:17:57


Post by: Da Boss


I can't speak to the intent, but the fact that the Imperium fails from small mindedness and cruelty is to me much more tragic than artificially amping up every single avenue of threat so that fascist approaches are conveniently the only ones that would work. That's just too close to IRL fascist propaganda. I agree, it was probably an effort to make the setting more grimdark, but I think it's also coloured by the feeling among the writers that the Imperium are the good guys, just sort of grim good guys who do bad stuff because they have to with a steely gaze and a heavy heart. But that's...gross as feth to me. Especially when you've got control over the fiction, so you don't actually have to make it be like that. It starts to read as a fantasy for people who think fascism is cool. The character advocating fascist approaches is never proven wrong in the fiction, they are always actually right and others were just not STRONG enough to do it. Gross.

And like, if you play Imperials as most of the fanbase do, you probably want to identify with your faction and root for them. If I read a Gaunt's Ghosts novel, I want to root for the Ghosts even though they are the instrument of a horrific regime and Gaunt is a scumbag really.

I agree about people misunderstanding Judge Dredd. It's definitely been a problem for a long time with the character. I misunderstood him when I started reading those comics (I mean I was 8, so please forgive me). It took some particular stories highlighting how awful the Judges were to really get the point across to me as a kid, and probably primed me to see the Imperium the way I do.

Edit: Tiberias: I see lots of people online in discussions saying the Imperium is the good guy, I'd say it's the majority opinion I see expressed. At the very least, that the ends of the Imperium justify the means. So I'm not sure you're right about what you are saying.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 13:36:54


Post by: Tiberias


 Da Boss wrote:
I can't speak to the intent, but the fact that the Imperium fails from small mindedness and cruelty is to me much more tragic than artificially amping up every single avenue of threat so that fascist approaches are conveniently the only ones that would work. That's just too close to IRL fascist propaganda. I agree, it was probably an effort to make the setting more grimdark, but I think it's also coloured by the feeling among the writers that the Imperium are the good guys, just sort of grim good guys who do bad stuff because they have to with a steely gaze and a heavy heart. But that's...gross as feth to me. Especially when you've got control over the fiction, so you don't actually have to make it be like that. It starts to read as a fantasy for people who think fascism is cool. The character advocating fascist approaches is never proven wrong in the fiction, they are always actually right and others were just not STRONG enough to do it. Gross.

And like, if you play Imperials as most of the fanbase do, you probably want to identify with your faction and root for them. If I read a Gaunt's Ghosts novel, I want to root for the Ghosts even though they are the instrument of a horrific regime and Gaunt is a scumbag really.

I agree about people misunderstanding Judge Dredd. It's definitely been a problem for a long time with the character. I misunderstood him when I started reading those comics (I mean I was 8, so please forgive me). It took some particular stories highlighting how awful the Judges were to really get the point across to me as a kid, and probably primed me to see the Imperium the way I do.

Edit: Tiberias: I see lots of people online in discussions saying the Imperium is the good guy, I'd say it's the majority opinion I see expressed. At the very least, that the ends of the Imperium justify the means. So I'm not sure you're right about what you are saying.


Again, I honestly agree with most of what you are saying. However even though I also agree that the imperium is grotesque, I don't have problem with how the writers are going about writing it. It's fiction after all and I see no problem with writing a faction as grotesque and morally reprehensible. I'm very much for artistic freedom and expression on that front.

Now, imo you can still identify with your faction if you play imperium, because playing the bad guys can be fun (then again, as I already mentioned, every faction in 40k is the bad guys to a varying degree). Also, and this is the important part, not every individual or group within the imperium has to be automatically as evil as the entire imperium at large. There can be heroic characters within these stories despite the awfulness of the setting.

And to your last point about a lot of people arguing for the imperium to be the good guys: if those people mean this by real life standards, as in drawing real life lessons from 40k, then these people need to pick up some history books.

Imo the only interesting real life question you can pull from 40k is this: if we were faced with an existential threat like in 40k, that can't be argued or negotiated with, would we also search for a strong leader and fall back to a fascistic, theocratic society and abandon our humanity?


Edit: I also have to say that your comparison to real life fascist propaganda and 40k is wrong just one small detail, but this detail is crucially important:
Real life fascist propaganda, by definition, paints a group of people (political enemies, minorities, whole foreign countries etc.) as a threat to the fascistic society for political gain to further cement the parties or leaders power. These "threats" are always either grossly exaggerated or straight up lies, as our history has shown in many terrible examples of whole ethnicities being dehumanized this way.
In 40k the imperium does the same thing, BUT crucially many of the threats are actually existential threats to humanity that can't be argued or negotiated with.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 14:17:10


Post by: Da Boss


So, I broadly agree. I have no problem with the Imperium being depicted as fascist. I even can accept them depicting it as "justified", it just means I have no interest in the setting any more.

When I was a kid I gleefully played my Blood Angels as the bad guys against my brothers Imperial Guard rebels. So I totally accept your other point too.

But my point about fascist propaganda is that the fictional universe of 40K has been distorted over time to make the fascism justified as you describe. It was not originally clear that it was justified, there was more ambiguity. That ambiguity has gradually been removed until we are where we are today.
THAT'S what I think is similar to fascist propaganda, because that is where the narrative has literally been constructed. The Imperium's fascist propaganda in setting is perfectly fine by me, it's quite amusing ("blessed is the mind too small for doubt" "an open mind is like a fortress with it's gates left open and unguarded", great stuff for a regressive fascist regime).

What's sad is that they've changed to setting to make it so the Imperium is in the right. That they do have no alternative. That's uncomfortable to me, I don't like it. I'd prefer it if it was not like that. And changing it so that fascism is the only answer is on the part of the authors close to fascist propaganda.

Please understand, I do not believe that their motives are sinister. I think it's an unintended consequence of many decisions by many people over a long time. I don't think there is a secret fascist plot in GW. But my interest in the modern setting is much lower because this is the "truth" of the setting. I often feel like I should stop discussing the setting in this forum because I find it so unsatisfying. Because I disagree with the direction of the setting, but I can't argue about it because people who read more of the modern stuff than me can quote chapter and verse that that is how it is.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 14:22:13


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


It would be nice if there were other human factions to show that there are alternatives. They should have their own set of flaws, of course, but it could be an interesting thematic tool.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 14:26:16


Post by: Da Boss


Yeah, when I started working on my "own version" of the universe for Stargrave and Stars Without Number the first thing I did was make the Imperium the biggest human faction but not the only one. I had the Eastern Fringe contain a bunch of human societies and small empires that were not Imperial in nature. In an RPG, my expectation would be that my players would come from this area, and the Imperium would be just another antagonist faction.

I think there's actually plenty of space for that within 40K. That was the background for my brother's army back in the 90s - a group of Imperial Guard that had killed their commissars and commanding officers to prevent a genocide and gone on the run with the humans from the world they were supposed to conquer. You could have all of the stories of 40K still happen while still having independent human systems and empires.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 14:36:11


Post by: Tiberias


@da Boss: I unterstand your point and respect your stance toward the setting. I just think you made one small leap there: I outlined the differences to real world fascist propaganda and the imperium of man in 40k. That does not automatically mean that the imperium is justified in what they are doing (the interex are a very interesting reminder of that). There might have been a myriad better ways to handle the ridiculously hostile universe in 40k.
It just poses the equally uncomfortable and interesting question on whether, if faced with an existential threat like in 40k, we would also turn to seemingly strong leaders and fall back into a fascistic society. It serves as a warning.

Edit: it's the same with frank Herbert's Dune, which massively influenced 40k: in the first book you root for Paul Atredeis and his quest, but the message is to not blindly follow charismatic leaders.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 14:38:24


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Da Boss wrote:
Yeah, when I started working on my "own version" of the universe for Stargrave and Stars Without Number the first thing I did was make the Imperium the biggest human faction but not the only one. I had the Eastern Fringe contain a bunch of human societies and small empires that were not Imperial in nature. In an RPG, my expectation would be that my players would come from this area, and the Imperium would be just another antagonist faction.

I think there's actually plenty of space for that within 40K. That was the background for my brother's army back in the 90s - a group of Imperial Guard that had killed their commissars and commanding officers to prevent a genocide and gone on the run with the humans from the world they were supposed to conquer. You could have all of the stories of 40K still happen while still having independent human systems and empires.

That was the neat thing about Warhammer Fantasy - It wasn't JUST the Empire representing humans. You also had Bretonnia, Kislev, Cathay, the Border Princes, Estalia and Tilea.
The latter few were barely expanded upon, mind you, but at least they existed and gave you a sense that it wasn't just the Empire and that there were other human civilizations.
40k lacks that. Even though humanity isn't mono-cultural because the Imperial worlds do show a variety of cultures, it's still all Imperial, and I think that's a pity.
It would have been interesting to see what the Interex would have evolved into, for example. I wouldn't make it a utopia though, that goes against the ethos of 40k.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 14:45:40


Post by: Tiennos


From a game design point of view, it's better that there are no good guys. It allows everyone to play whatever faction they want without worrying about who has the moral high ground, because there's just no such thing. Every faction does truly horrible things. You could make your own character whose motivation is the end of all life in the universe and that'd be okay because this universe is so screwed up it doesn't deserve any better.

And in the end, it seems that no one really has any chance of succeeding anyway, so nothing they do matters. There is only war for war's sake. Which is convenient when you're selling a wargame.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 14:48:23


Post by: Gert


Nah see the Orks always succeed. If they win a fight then it was a good fight but its time to find another one. If they lose then it was a really good fight.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 15:03:35


Post by: Da Boss


Tiberias wrote:
@da Boss: I unterstand your point and respect your stance toward the setting. I just think you made one small leap there: I outlined the differences to real world fascist propaganda and the imperium of man in 40k. That does not automatically mean that the imperium is justified in what they are doing (the interex are a very interesting reminder of that). There might have been a myriad better ways to handle the ridiculously hostile universe in 40k.
It just poses the equally uncomfortable and interesting question on whether, if faced with an existential threat like in 40k, we would also turn to seemingly strong leaders and fall back into a fascistic society. It serves as a warning.

Edit: it's the same with frank Herbert's Dune, which massively influenced 40k: in the first book you root for Paul Atredeis and his quest, but the message is to not blindly follow charismatic leaders.


I agree you can interpret it that way. Unfortunately in many discussions online I find people do not put that much thought into it and generally see it as the Imperium being justified in what they are doing because of what they are up against.

The Dune influence on 40K is one of the things that makes is awesome. I really should go re-read Dune.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 15:28:07


Post by: Curvaceous


Tiberias wrote:

Imo the only interesting real life question you can pull from 40k is this: if we were faced with an existential threat like in 40k, that can't be argued or negotiated with, would we also search for a strong leader and fall back to a fascistic, theocratic society and abandon our humanity?


Edit: I also have to say that your comparison to real life fascist propaganda and 40k is wrong just one small detail, but this detail is crucially important:
Real life fascist propaganda, by definition, paints a group of people (political enemies, minorities, whole foreign countries etc.) as a threat to the fascistic society for political gain to further cement the parties or leaders power. These "threats" are always either grossly exaggerated or straight up lies, as our history has shown in many terrible examples of whole ethnicities being dehumanized this way.
In 40k the imperium does the same thing, BUT crucially many of the threats are actually existential threats to humanity that can't be argued or negotiated with.


This is a very tenuous set thoughts. One, propagandists talking about the real world also are describing “actual existential threats.” They don’t admit that they’re exaggerating,

More importantly propaganda is also often fiction. People need to get themselves hyped up. It sounds like you’re saying no, we don’t understand, in the fictional world, the lecherous dwarves really DID want to steal the blond maidens’ gold. Right? that’s propaganda, it’s fiction that used by real people to flatter and indulge their campaign of murder.

You yourself said it. The only real world use of it would be asking ourselves what we’d do if semi-literate [orks] who can’t be reasoned with and armed with crude weapons wanted to invade and murder us. Would we let a dictator take charge and push them back to where they came from?

bro what’s the real world use for that question? the real world use for engaging in that hypothetical is assuming that we might decide it’s come true. You yourself described this as the real world use for it, you described it as being propaganda.


So speaking of whether propagandists say their propaganda is true, this is an article in a mainstream British newspaper by a mainstream politician. I’ve changed some words so you don’t have to read outright genocidal libel:

Spoiler:
In violent opposition to all this sphere of [bearish] effort rise the schemes of the International [Bears]. The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where [Bears] are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the [Bears] is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs. Webster, has so ably shown, a definitely recognisable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.


You say that in the fiction of 40k, the existential threats are “actual”ly real. Well a lot of what the statements “actual” politician uses are truths, and then he weaves them into an absolutely unforgivable


In an RPG, my expectation would be that my players would come from this area, and the Imperium would be just another antagonist faction.

That was the background for my brother's army back in the 90s - a group of Imperial Guard that had killed their commissars and commanding officers to prevent a genocide and gone on the run with the humans from the world they were supposed to conquer.


It’s interesting that there is such a huge difference between these. In the first one the player characters are from good guy factions and the imperium is inherently bad guys. In your brother’s, the player army starts out as the bad guys and has to make a huge commitment to not being the bad guys. Imo the former is kind of propaganda itself, since like we see in that above article the historical good guys believe and do the same thing as the bad guys.




Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 15:38:48


Post by: Tiberias


Curvaceous wrote:
Tiberias wrote:

Imo the only interesting real life question you can pull from 40k is this: if we were faced with an existential threat like in 40k, that can't be argued or negotiated with, would we also search for a strong leader and fall back to a fascistic, theocratic society and abandon our humanity?


Edit: I also have to say that your comparison to real life fascist propaganda and 40k is wrong just one small detail, but this detail is crucially important:
Real life fascist propaganda, by definition, paints a group of people (political enemies, minorities, whole foreign countries etc.) as a threat to the fascistic society for political gain to further cement the parties or leaders power. These "threats" are always either grossly exaggerated or straight up lies, as our history has shown in many terrible examples of whole ethnicities being dehumanized this way.
In 40k the imperium does the same thing, BUT crucially many of the threats are actually existential threats to humanity that can't be argued or negotiated with.


This is a very tenuous set thoughts. One, propagandists talking about the real world also are describing “actual existential threats.” They don’t admit that they’re exaggerating,

More importantly propaganda is also often fiction. People need to get themselves hyped up. It sounds like you’re saying no, we don’t understand, in the fictional world, the lecherous dwarves really DID want to steal the blond maidens’ gold. Right? that’s propaganda, it’s fiction that used by real people to flatter and indulge their campaign of murder.

You yourself said it. The only real world use of it would be asking ourselves what we’d do if semi-literate [orks] who can’t be reasoned with and armed with crude weapons wanted to invade and murder us. Would we let a dictator take charge and push them back to where they came from?

bro what’s the real world use for that question? the real world use for engaging in that hypothetical is assuming that we might decide it’s come true. You yourself described this as the real world use for it, you described it as being propaganda.


So speaking of whether propagandists say their propaganda is true, this is an article in a mainstream British newspaper by a mainstream politician. I’ve changed some words so you don’t have to read outright genocidal libel:

Spoiler:
In violent opposition to all this sphere of [bearish] effort rise the schemes of the International [Bears]. The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where [Bears] are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the [Bears] is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played, as a modern writer, Mrs. Webster, has so ably shown, a definitely recognisable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.


You say that in the fiction of 40k, the existential threats are “actual”ly real. Well a lot of what the statements “actual” politician uses are truths, and then he weaves them into an absolutely unforgivable


In an RPG, my expectation would be that my players would come from this area, and the Imperium would be just another antagonist faction.

That was the background for my brother's army back in the 90s - a group of Imperial Guard that had killed their commissars and commanding officers to prevent a genocide and gone on the run with the humans from the world they were supposed to conquer.


It’s interesting that there is such a huge difference between these. In the first one the player characters are from good guy factions and the imperium is inherently bad guys. In your brother’s, the player army starts out as the bad guys and has to make a huge commitment to not being the bad guys. Imo the former is kind of propaganda itself, since like we see in that above article the historical good guys believe and do the same thing as the bad guys.




What a load of useless drivel. What is the practical real life us of my question you can imo draw from 40k? It's a philosophical question....one that has been asked on different context like if we ever were to meet an alien civilization.

I also literally said, that real life fascist propaganda is either flat out lies of grossly exaggerated to propagate fear for political gains. What's your point?

I swear, every time this topic comes up some one comes along who does not want to comprehensively read my posts.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 16:09:28


Post by: Da Boss


Curvaceous: The "good guys" and "bad guys" dichotomy is in any case useless and harmful. Good guys and bad guys don't exist and never really have.

I used the word antagonist on purpose. The point of making players come from non-Imperial worlds is a pragmatic one - players in RPGs, especially new players, tend to have their character have values that are close to their real world values. If there is nowhere in 40K for someone with modern values to come from then it's a bit alienating for players, or they will be constantly at odds with their faction. So I try to allow for modern values to make sense in my game worlds to an extent, at least to have somewhere where people like that can come from so that people don't have to worry about it too much.

As to my brother's idea, he liked Imperial Guard as the "normal" humans because he likes underdog factions, but wanted them to not be space nazis because he thought space nazis were bad. So he came up with this background. I was happy to play the villain with my space marines chasing them down.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 17:18:35


Post by: Crimson


 Da Boss wrote:
It's just a different kind of terrible. It's also related to how GW have turned Chaos into more and more of a flanderized version of themselves and removed any ambiguity from them. Much like how they made the Tau secretly evil due to the Ethereals or made the Hive Mind spiteful rather than just a huge hungry organism.

The Imperium fails because it is fascist. It's clearly part of the original background that the fascist crap the Imperium does is holding it back from actually succeeding, and that keeping the populace in miserable conditions and engaging in mass murder of dissidents and mutants is sabotaging their society. This is because that is also what happens IRL fascist societies.

The fact that later authors who were...more limited in their perspective came along and invented reasons why we absolutely have to do those things or we will lose so it's absolutely justified REALLY has unfortunately turned the setting from a satire and critique of fascism into something of an apologia for fascism. This makes me pretty sad and uncomfortable.

When I got into the game age 12 with very little political awareness, I was able to understand that the Imperium were the bad guys. The only way we could conceive of a good guy in the setting was someone who was rebelling against the Imperium to protect their people from it. The fact that this was the case made the setting much more interesting to me, and it was familiar to me from growing up reading stuff like Judge Dredd.


Yeah, 100% agree. Couldn't have said it better.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 18:50:59


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Hecaton wrote:The Imperium genocides peaceful, harmless aliens, as well as humans who display birth defects.
The Imperium are awful, and definitely are the bad guys, but the bolded section is simply not true on an institutional scale.

Tentacle mutations? Giant pincers and crab legs? Sure. A sixth finger? Heterochromia? Doubtful, save for the most completely hard line and purist.
Evidently, there's a difference of standards between the highest spires of a civilised world, and the irradiated wastes of Baal or the slums of Necromunda.

No institutional policy exists where "humans who display birth defects" (wherein birth defects refers to *real world birth defects*) are killed.

Note that this should not be taken as "Imperium sympathising" - just to make that very clear.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:It would be nice if there were other human factions to show that there are alternatives. They should have their own set of flaws, of course, but it could be an interesting thematic tool.
There are! Or, rather, used to be, in setting. The Interex were a pretty solid example of a human civilisation that existed outside of the Imperium, and arguably, you could say that pre-Imperial Ultramar was successful too, having already established limited extra-system travel, from my understanding. in fact, many of the societies that the Primarchs ended up on were non-Imperial human societies, and many of them were pretty well off without Imperial influence (Inwit, Macragge, Caliban, etc)


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 19:02:06


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Yeah I knew about the Interex and the pre-crusade worlds. I suppose that it's a part of the grimdark setting that all of those worlds were either wiped out or integrated into the mess that is the Imperium, it just would have been interesting to see a surviving human civilization that developed without the Imperium's interference. I would actually argue that it would be more grimdark if there was human rival to the Imperium that also has it's set of serious problems.
Imagine the Tau, except human. Yes, they have their Gue'vesa, but there's barely any fluff on them and besides, humans being led by aliens isn't quite the same as a self-governed human world.

When the Indomitus rift thing happened I was expecting/hoping for there to be a split in the Imperium, much like how the Roman Empire split into East and West halves, which might have resulted in a curious cultural divergence. It didn't happen :/


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 19:13:49


Post by: Crimson


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah I knew about the Interex and the pre-crusade worlds. I suppose that it's a part of the grimdark setting that all of these worlds were either wiped out or integrated into the mess that is the Imperium, it just would have been interesting to see a surviving human civilization that developed without the Imperium's interference.


At least in the old fluff it definitely was the case that there were non-imperial human world, and actually plenty of them. It was specifically said that even though the Imperium was large, it controlled just a tiny fraction of the galaxy. I think in the current fluff Imperium often comes as monolithic and omnipresent.

I was playing Necromunda a while ago, and it was really refreshing to focus on that level of Imperium; to people who are not part of any Imperial organisation. I'd really like if there was more options for that in 40K too, Rogue Traders, mercenaries, assorted rebel scum etc. I was just browsing the old Rogue Trader rulebook, and I couldn't avoid the thought that despite all the polish decades of work the current 40K is very stale and pompously boring in comparison.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 19:14:44


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Crimson wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah I knew about the Interex and the pre-crusade worlds. I suppose that it's a part of the grimdark setting that all of these worlds were either wiped out or integrated into the mess that is the Imperium, it just would have been interesting to see a surviving human civilization that developed without the Imperium's interference.


At least in the old fluff it definitely was the case that there were non-imperial human world, and actually plenty of them. It was specifically said that even though the Imperium was large, it controlled just a tiny fraction of the galaxy. I think in the current fluff Imperium often comes as monolithic and omnipresent.

I was playing Necromunda a while ago, and it was really refreshing to focus on that level of Imperium; to people who are not part of any Imperial organisation. I'd really like if there was more options for that in 40K too, Rogue Traders, mercenaries, assorted rebel scum etc. I was just browsing the old Rogue Trader rulebook, and I couldn't avoid the thought that despite all the polish decades of work the current 40K is very stale and pompously boring in comparison.

Ah really? Well that's just disappointing


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 19:33:39


Post by: Gert


I think something that often gets forgotten when discussing background is that for a thing to exist in any large capacity, it must be present in a game system.
Necromunda can be explored very well since there is a game to be made off said exploration and background.
Non-Imperial human factions might well exist in the background but how are they represented on the tabletop that marks them out as different from the Imperium? What would the difference be between a non-Imperial model line and an Imperial one? Fewer skulls and aquilas?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 20:09:21


Post by: Arachnofiend


Tiberias wrote:
I also have to say that your comparison to real life fascist propaganda and 40k is wrong just one small detail, but this detail is crucially important:
Real life fascist propaganda, by definition, paints a group of people (political enemies, minorities, whole foreign countries etc.) as a threat to the fascistic society for political gain to further cement the parties or leaders power. These "threats" are always either grossly exaggerated or straight up lies, as our history has shown in many terrible examples of whole ethnicities being dehumanized this way.
In 40k the imperium does the same thing, BUT crucially many of the threats are actually existential threats to humanity that can't be argued or negotiated with.

Back in the Psychic Awakening era there was a pretty good Thousand Sons short story about desperate people who had suddenly developed psychic powers being driven into the arms of Tzeentch out of fear of what the Imperium would do to them. The Imperium is deeply cruel to anyone that is different in a way that is not immediately useful to its war machine.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 20:16:07


Post by: Da Boss


 Gert wrote:
I think something that often gets forgotten when discussing background is that for a thing to exist in any large capacity, it must be present in a game system.
Necromunda can be explored very well since there is a game to be made off said exploration and background.
Non-Imperial human factions might well exist in the background but how are they represented on the tabletop that marks them out as different from the Imperium? What would the difference be between a non-Imperial model line and an Imperial one? Fewer skulls and aquilas?


Heh, considering that the various flavours of transhumans in power armour make up 17 supported factions, I'm not sure you need to be THAT different to the imperium to justify your own book.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 20:28:23


Post by: Gert


 Da Boss wrote:

Heh, considering that the various flavours of transhumans in power armour make up 17 supported factions, I'm not sure you need to be THAT different to the imperium to justify your own book.

Space Marines all share the same base design/datasheets/rules though, don't they? They are a blank slate that is then added to with things like Space Wolves or Grey Knights. A SM army will still use Intercessors or Rhinos or Dreadnoughts.
What difference would there be functionally or aesthetically between an Astra Militarum army and a non-Imperial human one?
It doesn't matter if Independent Human Empire Z is democratic and atheist because that isn't something you can represent on the tabletop, at least not in a meaningful way.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 20:43:47


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Gert wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:

Heh, considering that the various flavours of transhumans in power armour make up 17 supported factions, I'm not sure you need to be THAT different to the imperium to justify your own book.

Space Marines all share the same base design/datasheets/rules though, don't they? They are a blank slate that is then added to with things like Space Wolves or Grey Knights. A SM army will still use Intercessors or Rhinos or Dreadnoughts.
What difference would there be functionally or aesthetically between an Astra Militarum army and a non-Imperial human one?
It doesn't matter if Independent Human Empire Z is democratic and atheist because that isn't something you can represent on the tabletop, at least not in a meaningful way.

They certainly wouldn't have the same equipment as their Imperial counterparts. That should grant some level of variation in terms of aesthetics and function.
Though in practice, such a faction might come into conflict more with Tau than Imperials in terms of design.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 20:57:20


Post by: Gert


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

They certainly wouldn't have the same equipment as their Imperial counterparts. That should grant some level of variation in terms of aesthetics and function.
Though in practice, such a faction might come into conflict more with Tau than Imperials in terms of design.

And that would be the difficulty IMO. There isn't really an option to go lower tech because the Imperium reaches the bare minimum for an FTL Empire and going more SciFi then they end up looking like T'au.
Where is the cut-off point? When does the human faction just become another Militarum Regiment?
When you have a setting like 40k where the human factions can and do take inspiration from literally anywhere it's then super difficult to make an opposing human faction unique.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 21:24:40


Post by: Da Boss


The Horus Heresy is full of weird and wonderful human civilisations. The Interex, those weird dudes that put their faces on holographic displays, a whole bunch of different ones.

I mean, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Custodes and Blood Angels are all just variations of transhuman in power armour but they get a lot out of that, right?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 21:49:26


Post by: Gert


 Da Boss wrote:
The Horus Heresy is full of weird and wonderful human civilisations. The Interex, those weird dudes that put their faces on holographic displays, a whole bunch of different ones.

I mean, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Custodes and Blood Angels are all just variations of transhuman in power armour but they get a lot out of that, right?

Yes but Astra Militarum also have that similar kind of milage for a human faction with customisation, it's not as great as SM due to the lack of unique units and characters but modelling wise there's no reason a Regiment designed like the French Musketeers wouldn't be seen fighting alongside some hi-tech future dudes.
The only real way I can see to include a non-Imperial human faction would be some kind of human-Xenos alliance which is basically what Gue'vesa are anyway.
I'd love more freedom for human factions but it's pretty much restricted to homebrew armies.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 21:50:00


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Gert wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

They certainly wouldn't have the same equipment as their Imperial counterparts. That should grant some level of variation in terms of aesthetics and function.
Though in practice, such a faction might come into conflict more with Tau than Imperials in terms of design.

And that would be the difficulty IMO. There isn't really an option to go lower tech because the Imperium reaches the bare minimum for an FTL Empire and going more SciFi then they end up looking like T'au.
Where is the cut-off point? When does the human faction just become another Militarum Regiment?
When you have a setting like 40k where the human factions can and do take inspiration from literally anywhere it's then super difficult to make an opposing human faction unique.

It would be harder to fit it in the fluff, imo. One will have to make a human civilization that different to the Imperium and yet flawed in its own horrible set of ways. Otherwise you're just making human T'au.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 22:13:51


Post by: Da Boss


You can make the background work any way you want. A hyper capitalist cyberpunk dystopian space empire would have high tech stuff but a very different look and feel to the Tau. There's endless stuff you can do.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 22:40:44


Post by: Gert


 Da Boss wrote:
You can make the background work any way you want.

That would be the issue. You could make any type of human empire you wanted but then I could just say "but that could just be a world/system/sector in the Imperium). With a setting as large as 40k anything that could be justified outside of a faction can also be justified within it (mostly, Slaaneshi Aeldari would be a stretch). It leaves loads of room for creativity while at the same time stifling it at certain points.

A hyper capitalist cyberpunk dystopian space empire would have high tech stuff but a very different look and feel to the Tau.

But how would they? If they need to be different to T'au then that erases options for things like Battlesuits or Drones. But if there's too much infantry or armour then the faction just becomes the Astra Militarum. Super Soldier troops and hover vehicles makes them Space Marines. Do you see what I'm trying to get at here?

There's endless stuff you can do.

Which is a double-edged sword as I have explained above.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 22:49:37


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Isn't there already a fair bit of overlap of archetypes though? Ad Mech and GSC are similar to guard, aren't they?
But yeah, that's the tricky part of the fluff. You also have to write in such a way that one just can't say "there's an Imperial world like that."


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 22:52:09


Post by: Da Boss


I just don't see how having minor variations on GEQ expanded out to full factions is so much harder than minor variations on MEQ. There's an entire game about different types of space marines and it doesn't seem to cause any of the issues you are describing.

And I mean, Iron Hands are tough space marines, but so are plague marines. So both can't exist. Ultramarines are all rounders but so are Black Legion, so we've got to scrap one. Word Bearers are fanatics but so are Black Templars, which one will we keep? Flesh Tearers are berserkers who fight in melee, so we can get rid of World Eaters.

Raven Guard and Night Lords both like stealth, are they the same faction?

I would also say that a certain kind of "high tech" does not fit in the Imperium. It's very much a weird clunky retro future only in the Imperium due to them not really understanding their tech. Though that conceit has been rendered moot in more modern background material :(


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 22:57:29


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


I would actually like to see more S3 T3 3+sv models. That's a statline that is barely touched upon and is only found on Sisters and some Aspect Warriors.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 23:21:13


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
 Da Boss wrote:
I just don't see how having minor variations on GEQ expanded out to full factions is so much harder than minor variations on MEQ. There's an entire game about different types of space marines and it doesn't seem to cause any of the issues you are describing.

Chief, I've been in the Heresy game since before Betrayal, and trust me the biggest complaint people have about it is that the only factions that people care about are the Legions. It's a game where the entire premise is a civil war caused by the Legions and people complain there's too much focus on the Legions.

Spoiler:
And I mean, Iron Hands are tough space marines, but so are plague marines. So both can't exist. Ultramarines are all rounders but so are Black Legion, so we've got to scrap one. Word Bearers are fanatics but so are Black Templars, which one will we keep? Flesh Tearers are berserkers who fight in melee, so we can get rid of World Eaters.

Raven Guard and Night Lords both like stealth, are they the same faction?

That's a very silly way to take on what I have said. Iron Hands and Death Guard are indeed both tough factions but are still very different factions both aesthetically and functionally. Iron Hand's toughness tends to focus on Dreadnoughts and Vehicles whereas the toughness of the Death Guard is hard-baked into every single unit that can then be increased while at the same time also using Plagues which have in-game effects. Black Legion are not "all-rounders" they are designed for constant spearhead advances, Word Bearers are fanatics in a different way and heavily used Daemonic units, Night Lords use their stealth for terror tactics. The only ones that are similar are Flesh Tearers and World Eaters yet both are significantly different in aesthetics so the argument still falls apart.
Your point is nitpicky beyond reason and completely fails to address the points I made in my own post. By your logic, we should scrap all bar one of the Xenos factions because they're all Xenos why do we need more than one?

Spoiler:
I would also say that a certain kind of "high tech" does not fit in the Imperium. It's very much a weird clunky retro future only in the Imperium due to them not really understanding their tech. Though that conceit has been rendered moot in more modern background material :(

Must have missed the Laser weapons, the colossal megacities, the esoteric reactors that allow them to sail through Hell or armour that links to the wearer's nervous system to enhance their combat abilities.
The Imperium is absolutely a high-tech empire, in fact, it's more high-tech than the T'au but because of the gothic aesthetic, it just doesn't seem like it. The T'au use a lot of weapons that are pretty simple, Railguns, drones, guided missiles, these are all things we can do now.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 23:27:59


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Yeah, the Imperium is really technologically advanced. It's just aesthetically their tech looks really crude and industrial.

As opposed to Tau which do look high tech but their tech is technically inferior in several aspects.

What about a human faction that makes heavy use of bio-engineering? Like the Yuuzhong Vong from star wars or the Bene Tleilax from Dune? That should give a unique aesthetic.
Not sure what they would be like culturally though. Extreme Environmentalists I guess?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 23:36:20


Post by: Gert


Honestly, I think the best course of action would be to establish the existence of non-Chaos/Imperial human empires scattered around the galaxy. That way if people want to play their own human empire, there's precedent for it.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 23:39:03


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Gert wrote:
Honestly, I think the best course of action would be to establish the existence of non-Chaos/Imperial human empires scattered around the galaxy. That way if people want to play their own human empire, there's precedent for it.

That's fair. It is kind of silly how anything human is either Imperial or Chaos. What about secessionist worlds that aren't in league with Chaos?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/21 23:57:30


Post by: Tiennos


Personally, I'd go the wizard route. The Imperium starts sweating when there are two psykers without a bolter pointed at their head for five minutes, so let's make our hypothetical new human faction the opposite. Thanks to some convenient (but grimdark) McGuffin, they can use psychic powers in a safe-ish way and have embraced it. Their society is heavily divided between psykers and non-psykers, with all the extra grimdark potential that implies. Their armies can basically be meat-shield infantry in front of witches and wizards lobbing warp-fireballs at the enemy. Thanks to magitech nonsense, they could look pretty weird and unique for the aesthetic part.

I think there's plenty of room to make something distinct enough from the rest that way. And that's just a quick random idea I came up with in a few minutes; there's tons of possibilities in a setting with the kind of wacky science and magic there is in 40k.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 00:01:35


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


You would have to explain why Chaos hasn't gotten a hold of that society though. Even with a macguffin Chaos will try to find a way to get to them.
Also, wouldn't the psykers rise to power and effectively take control of the non-psyker populace? It would be something of a cruel mirror of the Imperium's treatment of psykers.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 03:37:04


Post by: Hecaton


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well, compared to demons and Dark Eldar they are sort of less evil.
That's really not saying much though.


Nah. Dark Eldar literally survive by the cruelty they inflict; they're more justified than the Imperium. In the case of demons, that's just the Imperium's own cruelty reflected back at itself. The Imperium is so gakky, the negative emotions of everyone in it change the warp to be the hellscape that it is. The Imperium is hoist by its own petard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Imperium genocides peaceful, harmless aliens, as well as humans who display birth defects. They are intentionally derivative of horrible regimes like the third reich. Calling them "nazis, but justified" like Gert is doing is exactly missing the point.


Jeez, this always comes up with you in these discussions. The point as you mentioned is that the imperium, even though it's utterly terrible, is less terrible than Chaos and the eternity of torment that awaits it's worshipers at the end of the line. It's less terrible than tyranids, who can not be argued with in any circumstance and it's way less terrible than dark eldar. The imperium is terrible and cruel because of it's dogmatism, stupidity and regression in technology. The dark eldar purposefully and willingly chose to be the worst sadists in the galaxy, even though another path (that of craftworld eldar) was shown and offered to them...they represent pure and utter evil.

So, and this is always misunderstood in these discussions, the interesting part about the imperium is that, despite being one of the worst theocratic regimes imaginable, it's still not as terrible as much of the other big threats lurking about within the galaxy....hence the grimdarkness of the setting we all enjoy. Recognizing and appreciating this fact from a storytelling perspective does not mean one is in favor of any form of fascism. It's a complete non sequitur.


No, if the Imperium was the "lesser evil" like you suggest, the setting would be grimbright. The point is that the Imperium is the "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable." And by being so cruel, it actually makes its own survival less likely - it makes Chaos, its main rival, more powerful with all the negative emotions the citizens of the Imperium are skeeting out, and their ignorant anti-science attitudes mean that their technology base is slowly decaying. And their genocidal attitudes mean that other alien races, who might be potential allies, have no interest in working with them.

If you're looking for the "hard choices in a dark galaxy, for the lesser evil" faction, that's Tau. A lot of people don't like that because they wanted to play the future nazis, coded as mostly European, as the "good guys," but that's how it is.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 04:52:05


Post by: Arcanis161


Hecaton wrote:


If you're looking for the "hard choices in a dark galaxy, for the lesser evil" faction, that's Tau. A lot of people don't like that because they wanted to play the future nazis, coded as mostly European, as the "good guys," but that's how it is.


Obvious question here: what are you trying to imply about imperial players here, if the imperium is as fascist as you claim?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 06:35:49


Post by: Tiberias


Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well, compared to demons and Dark Eldar they are sort of less evil.
That's really not saying much though.


Nah. Dark Eldar literally survive by the cruelty they inflict; they're more justified than the Imperium. In the case of demons, that's just the Imperium's own cruelty reflected back at itself. The Imperium is so gakky, the negative emotions of everyone in it change the warp to be the hellscape that it is. The Imperium is hoist by its own petard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Imperium genocides peaceful, harmless aliens, as well as humans who display birth defects. They are intentionally derivative of horrible regimes like the third reich. Calling them "nazis, but justified" like Gert is doing is exactly missing the point.


Jeez, this always comes up with you in these discussions. The point as you mentioned is that the imperium, even though it's utterly terrible, is less terrible than Chaos and the eternity of torment that awaits it's worshipers at the end of the line. It's less terrible than tyranids, who can not be argued with in any circumstance and it's way less terrible than dark eldar. The imperium is terrible and cruel because of it's dogmatism, stupidity and regression in technology. The dark eldar purposefully and willingly chose to be the worst sadists in the galaxy, even though another path (that of craftworld eldar) was shown and offered to them...they represent pure and utter evil.

So, and this is always misunderstood in these discussions, the interesting part about the imperium is that, despite being one of the worst theocratic regimes imaginable, it's still not as terrible as much of the other big threats lurking about within the galaxy....hence the grimdarkness of the setting we all enjoy. Recognizing and appreciating this fact from a storytelling perspective does not mean one is in favor of any form of fascism. It's a complete non sequitur.


No, if the Imperium was the "lesser evil" like you suggest, the setting would be grimbright. The point is that the Imperium is the "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable." And by being so cruel, it actually makes its own survival less likely - it makes Chaos, its main rival, more powerful with all the negative emotions the citizens of the Imperium are skeeting out, and their ignorant anti-science attitudes mean that their technology base is slowly decaying. And their genocidal attitudes mean that other alien races, who might be potential allies, have no interest in working with them.

If you're looking for the "hard choices in a dark galaxy, for the lesser evil" faction, that's Tau. A lot of people don't like that because they wanted to play the future nazis, coded as mostly European, as the "good guys," but that's how it is.


No, just no. The dark eldar are not a tragic faction in any way shape or form because they have to inflict suffering to survive. They willingly chose to keep their sadistic ways and go down the rabbit hole of depravity further than anyone before. They specifically chose not to take the difficult and disciplined path like the craftworld eldar. Nobody forced them to become the worst sadists in the galaxy, it was their conscious decision. They are pure and utter evil....and that's cool by me, it's an interesting faction, but saying they are more justified than the imperium in their cruelty is just utterly ridiculous. I know you have a hate boner for the imperium and that's fine I guess, but this comparison especially really does not hold up.

As to your second point: I did not say the imperium was THE lesser evil, just that it is less evil than dark eldar and chaos, which it obviously is. We've had this discussion before in another thread and there you also kept implying that everyone who does not agree with you supports fascist ideology. I want you to once and for all clarify your stance on whether you believe that I or people in this thread just want to play "future nazis" to act out their fascist fantasies or whatever, based on the discussion in this thread. Because if you genuinely do believe that, we have nothing further to discuss.

Edti: you also keep proving that you really do not know much about the lore. The negative emotions caused by the imperium did not turn the warp into a hellscape, the war in heaven did. The chaos gods existed way before humanity did.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 07:10:14


Post by: Arachnofiend


I don't know much about elf lore because I don't care about elves in any setting, but it's always confounded me how embracing the worst aspects of Slaanesh does anything to keep the drukhari out of their grasp.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 07:36:01


Post by: Tiberias


 Arachnofiend wrote:
I don't know much about elf lore because I don't care about elves in any setting, but it's always confounded me how embracing the worst aspects of Slaanesh does anything to keep the drukhari out of their grasp.


A couple of factors: for one them being in the webway shielded them from slaaneshs birthcry, which wiped out most of eldar civilisation. The dark eldar soon realized that being in the webway does not shield them from slaanesh completely. They feel a constant pull, a drain within them that makes their souls age and wither and when they inevitably die, slaanesh comes and collects their souls for an eternety of torment.
They have learned however that by inflicting pain upon other beings, they can rejuvinate their souls and bodies and temporarily stave off slaaneshs grasp. The older they become, the more dulled down they become however. This is why they need more and more exotic and depraved ways of torture to rejuvinate themselves and keep going. Basically the dark eldar have such a colossal ego that their plan for dealing with slaanesh is to just live forever by letting others suffer for them.

And it's not like they were pushed into this circumstance without choice. They were warned way before the fall of eldar civilisation and the birth of slaanesh, but they actively chose to keep their lifestyle. They even know that there is an alternative in the disciplined path the craftworld eldar have taken....but that's just too much work and also boring.
So yeah, I stand by my assessment: the dark eldar are probably the most evil faction in the entire setting.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 07:56:22


Post by: Wakshaani


Well, when it comes to the original question, there are three aspects overall.
One - the genetic makeup of the warriors in question as Space Marines have a bunch of internal upgrades and augmentations, but some branches have lost some of those upgrades while others suffer from upgrade mutation … sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. Fully half of all mariness draw form Ultramarine Geneseed, which wasn't perfect (they've lost a few upgrades) but which has been stunningly *stable* and mutation-free.

Two - Training. Some marines are simply better trained than others due to a host of factors. The Mentor Legion were better at teaching than fighting, for instance. They weren't *bad* at fighting, but they put a TON of time into learning how to educate, which cuts into stabbing training. The Space Wolves brawl all the time, but they also have downtime for drinking, feasting, boasting, and fairly unique among the chapters, womanizing. This keeps up their close-combat ability but their marksmanship, as a rule, suffers a bit. Again, not BAD, but it's not their focus.

Lastly is equipment. Some chapters simply have better gear than others. The Minotaurs get great stuff from the High Lords of Terra. Ultramarines have a vast support network. The Dark Angels have a massive vault of Dark Age of Technology stuff that they do NOT lend out. On the other end of the spectrum, you have the Lamentors, who were nearly eradicated, having to get by on salvaged armor, a single limping spaceship, and a lot of prayer. A good arsenal can make up for a lot, but a bad one can cripple even the best fighters.

When you toss in X factors … who needs it more, who's on defense vs who's on offense, terrain, weather, etc, it's real hard to say. There's simply no single chapter that you can point to and say, "Them. They beat all comers." There are just too many situations and factors that can come into play.

I mean, White Scars trying to take a fortress of the Imperial Fists? The Fists are gonna win. The Imperial Fists dropped down to try and run down a bunch of White Scars? The Scars will laugh as they lead the Fists on a merry chase and then destroy them when they run out of gas. Each has a specialty (hit and run vs siege warfare) and, in their element and out of the other one's, they win, but flip the element and the result changes as well.

So, complicated way of saying "It depends" but here we are.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 10:03:02


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Well, compared to demons and Dark Eldar they are sort of less evil.
That's really not saying much though.


Nah. Dark Eldar literally survive by the cruelty they inflict; they're more justified than the Imperium. In the case of demons, that's just the Imperium's own cruelty reflected back at itself. The Imperium is so gakky, the negative emotions of everyone in it change the warp to be the hellscape that it is. The Imperium is hoist by its own petard.


The Imperium also need to do the horrible things they do to survive, except they don't actively relish in the suffering they cause.
Daemons don't just feed off of human emotion, they feed off anything with a psychic presence, including xenos. There were xenos civilizations worshipping Chaos long before the Imperium existed, and Slaanesh was created by the Eldar's depravity.
Demons and the warp have been around since the War in Heaven; They are not the Imperium's making.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 12:36:01


Post by: harlokin


Tiberias wrote:

And it's not like they were pushed into this circumstance without choice. They were warned way before the fall of eldar civilisation and the birth of slaanesh, but they actively chose to keep their lifestyle.


Off topic, I admit, but you started it.

Who was warned? How many generations have passed since the Aledari race fell? Only two individuals out of the entire race, Vect and Rakarth, were alive at the time. The race as a whole are only guilty of a form of original/inherited sin.

Tiberias wrote:
They even know that there is an alternative in the disciplined path the craftworld eldar have taken....but that's just too much work and also boring.
So yeah, I stand by my assessment: the dark eldar are probably the most evil faction in the entire setting.


It wouldn't matter if they pursued the Craftworld Path system, because it is dependant on Soulstones, of which the Drukhari have the net total of fuckall.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 12:50:37


Post by: Gert


 harlokin wrote:

Off topic, I admit, but you started it.

Who was warned? How many generations have passed since the Aledari race fell? Only two individuals out of the entire race, Vect and Rakarth, were alive at the time. The race as a whole are only guilty of a form of original/inherited sin.

IIRC it was more those who became the Craftworlders and Exodites who said "hey you better stop being hedonistic you rapscallions or you'll ruin society".


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 13:01:37


Post by: harlokin


 Gert wrote:
 harlokin wrote:

Off topic, I admit, but you started it.

Who was warned? How many generations have passed since the Aledari race fell? Only two individuals out of the entire race, Vect and Rakarth, were alive at the time. The race as a whole are only guilty of a form of original/inherited sin.

IIRC it was more those who became the Craftworlders and Exodites who said "hey you better stop being hedonistic you rapscallions or you'll ruin society".


Yup yup, I agree.

I was just arguing against Commorites M41 being cuplable for The Fall, which occured likely thousands of years before they were born.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 13:06:47


Post by: Gert


 harlokin wrote:

Yup yup, I agree.

I was just arguing against Commorites M41 being cuplable for The Fall, which occured likely thousands of years before they were born.

Oh for sure. None of the old Houses even remain in Commoragh, they were wiped out by Vect's new Kabals. An individual might be the descendant of one of the old bloodlines but even for the long-lived Aeldari, there isn't anyone left from the Fall in Drukhari society, at least not as they were since Vect was a sacrificial slave and Rakarth has died so many times he probably doesn't remember it.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 14:23:43


Post by: Tiberias


 harlokin wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 harlokin wrote:

Off topic, I admit, but you started it.

Who was warned? How many generations have passed since the Aledari race fell? Only two individuals out of the entire race, Vect and Rakarth, were alive at the time. The race as a whole are only guilty of a form of original/inherited sin.

IIRC it was more those who became the Craftworlders and Exodites who said "hey you better stop being hedonistic you rapscallions or you'll ruin society".


Yup yup, I agree.

I was just arguing against Commorites M41 being cuplable for The Fall, which occured likely thousands of years before they were born.


The dark eldar are probably one of the very few faction where you can actually still find people from before the fall if you were to look hard enough, especially among the haemunculi covens. That's beside the point though, I wasn't arguing that all or the majority of M41 dark eldar are responsible for the fall...eldar society at large was responsible back then, commoragh only played a part in that.
My point is that it's not a secret or new information that there are ways out of the torturous ways of the dark eldar, like the path of the craftworld eldar or the more primitive life of the exodites. It's also not like those paths are closed off to them, there are instances of dark eldar changing their ways (path of the...something series if memory serves). Which is why their lifestyle of inflicting the most sadistic ways of torture is unnecessary and therefore utterly evil.
Again, which is cool by me. They are an extremely interesting faction with amazing models, I wouldn't want to miss them or change them.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 14:37:00


Post by: Da Boss


Dark Eldar as presented are quite fun and interesting, but I prefer to think of them as decadent corsairs myself. Adds a bit more dimension to them.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 14:41:59


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Weren't they decadent corsairs before 5th ed? The whole thing about them needing to cause suffering to distract Slaanesh is 5th ed fluff, isn't t?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 14:52:53


Post by: Gert


They still are decadent corsairs though, the torture and soul-stealing keep them alive, and with that extended life, they take part in pleasures aplenty.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 15:13:14


Post by: harlokin


Corsairs are Asuryani who are going through a 'Drukhari-curious' phase


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/22 16:16:19


Post by: Wakshaani


You know, if you were feeling frisky, you could probably use the new Beastsnagga rules to make some Eldar Exodites.

You get warriors on beasts, leaders on the same, primitive warriors who're hard as nails … just give 'em pointy ears instead of green skin and call it a good 'un.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 03:07:13


Post by: Insectum7


Tiberias wrote:

Edti: you also keep proving that you really do not know much about the lore. The negative emotions caused by the imperium did not turn the warp into a hellscape, the war in heaven did. The chaos gods existed way before humanity did.
While the Chaos gods have existed for a long time, the idea that a galaxy spanning, warmongering, xenophobic hegemony somehow doesn't fuel those gods (particularly Khorne and Tzeentch) seems pretty absurd. It could probably be argued that Khorne is a more human variation of the war-god Khaela-Mensha-Khaine, the shattered Eldar war god. We know that Orks have their own gods. . . Eldar do/did . . . So why wouldn't trillions of humans have their own refections/influence on the warp?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 05:09:16


Post by: Hecaton


Arcanis161 wrote:
Obvious question here: what are you trying to imply about imperial players here, if the imperium is as fascist as you claim?


I'm saying that the reason why people glom on to the Imperium as the "justified' faction has a lot to do with how they're portrayed as European (mostly) and a lot of people interpret the Tau as Asian. Yes, racism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
No, just no. The dark eldar are not a tragic faction in any way shape or form because they have to inflict suffering to survive. They willingly chose to keep their sadistic ways and go down the rabbit hole of depravity further than anyone before. They specifically chose not to take the difficult and disciplined path like the craftworld eldar. Nobody forced them to become the worst sadists in the galaxy, it was their conscious decision. They are pure and utter evil....and that's cool by me, it's an interesting faction, but saying they are more justified than the imperium in their cruelty is just utterly ridiculous. I know you have a hate boner for the imperium and that's fine I guess, but this comparison especially really does not hold up.


No, it's not. There are at least expedient reasons for the Dark Eldar to do what they do. The Imperium makes its own existence less viable with all of its cruelty, but insists on it because it loves cruelty for cruelty's sake.

Tiberias wrote:
As to your second point: I did not say the imperium was THE lesser evil, just that it is less evil than dark eldar and chaos, which it obviously is. We've had this discussion before in another thread and there you also kept implying that everyone who does not agree with you supports fascist ideology. I want you to once and for all clarify your stance on whether you believe that I or people in this thread just want to play "future nazis" to act out their fascist fantasies or whatever, based on the discussion in this thread. Because if you genuinely do believe that, we have nothing further to discuss.


I think that people who unironically like the Imperium are pro-fascism (or pro-something close to fascism), yeah. This is a society that kills children born with cleft palettes instead of giving them medical care.

Tiberias wrote:
Edti: you also keep proving that you really do not know much about the lore. The negative emotions caused by the imperium did not turn the warp into a hellscape, the war in heaven did. The chaos gods existed way before humanity did.


The Imperium is definitely the strongest influence on it now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The Imperium also need to do the horrible things they do to survive, except they don't actively relish in the suffering they cause.


No, the Imperium does not need to wipe out all intelligent xenos, brutally oppress its own population, KILL BABIES, etc. And they do it gleefully - the loyal worshipers of the Ecclesiarchy are into that gak.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Daemons don't just feed off of human emotion, they feed off anything with a psychic presence, including xenos. There were xenos civilizations worshipping Chaos long before the Imperium existed, and Slaanesh was created by the Eldar's depravity.
Demons and the warp have been around since the War in Heaven; They are not the Imperium's making.


They're not, but the Imperium is the biggest influence on them.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 06:19:41


Post by: GoldenHorde


Hecaton wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Obvious question here: what are you trying to imply about imperial players here, if the imperium is as fascist as you claim?


I'm saying that the reason why people glom on to the Imperium as the "justified' faction has a lot to do with how they're portrayed as European (mostly) and a lot of people interpret the Tau as Asian. Yes, racism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
No, just no. The dark eldar are not a tragic faction in any way shape or form because they have to inflict suffering to survive. They willingly chose to keep their sadistic ways and go down the rabbit hole of depravity further than anyone before. They specifically chose not to take the difficult and disciplined path like the craftworld eldar. Nobody forced them to become the worst sadists in the galaxy, it was their conscious decision. They are pure and utter evil....and that's cool by me, it's an interesting faction, but saying they are more justified than the imperium in their cruelty is just utterly ridiculous. I know you have a hate boner for the imperium and that's fine I guess, but this comparison especially really does not hold up.


No, it's not. There are at least expedient reasons for the Dark Eldar to do what they do. The Imperium makes its own existence less viable with all of its cruelty, but insists on it because it loves cruelty for cruelty's sake.

Tiberias wrote:
As to your second point: I did not say the imperium was THE lesser evil, just that it is less evil than dark eldar and chaos, which it obviously is. We've had this discussion before in another thread and there you also kept implying that everyone who does not agree with you supports fascist ideology. I want you to once and for all clarify your stance on whether you believe that I or people in this thread just want to play "future nazis" to act out their fascist fantasies or whatever, based on the discussion in this thread. Because if you genuinely do believe that, we have nothing further to discuss.


I think that people who unironically like the Imperium are pro-fascism (or pro-something close to fascism), yeah. This is a society that kills children born with cleft palettes instead of giving them medical care.

Tiberias wrote:
Edti: you also keep proving that you really do not know much about the lore. The negative emotions caused by the imperium did not turn the warp into a hellscape, the war in heaven did. The chaos gods existed way before humanity did.


The Imperium is definitely the strongest influence on it now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The Imperium also need to do the horrible things they do to survive, except they don't actively relish in the suffering they cause.


No, the Imperium does not need to wipe out all intelligent xenos, brutally oppress its own population, KILL BABIES, etc. And they do it gleefully - the loyal worshipers of the Ecclesiarchy are into that gak.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Daemons don't just feed off of human emotion, they feed off anything with a psychic presence, including xenos. There were xenos civilizations worshipping Chaos long before the Imperium existed, and Slaanesh was created by the Eldar's depravity.
Demons and the warp have been around since the War in Heaven; They are not the Imperium's making.


They're not, but the Imperium is the biggest influence on them.


Every faction in 40k is self justified in 40k under "might is right" thucydidean sense. Have ye yet not understood the Grim Dark blurb?

Lol trying to sell space slavers and space stalinists as better than others....haha talk about missing the damn point of the setting...


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 06:28:29


Post by: Hecaton


 GoldenHorde wrote:


Every faction in 40k is self justified in 40k under "might is right" thucydidean sense. Have ye yet not understood the Grim Dark blurb?

Lol trying to sell space slavers and space stalinists as better than others....haha talk about missing the damn point of the setting...


Yes, I got that starter set with the Big Black Book back when it came out. The "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" isn't Cormorragh, it's the Imperium.

The Tau are definitely not Stalinist. And the Imperium practices slavery left, right, and center too.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 06:43:29


Post by: Tiberias


I mean, holy fething gak, there is a lot to unpack here...

Hecaton wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Obvious question here: what are you trying to imply about imperial players here, if the imperium is as fascist as you claim?


I'm saying that the reason why people glom on to the Imperium as the "justified' faction has a lot to do with how they're portrayed as European (mostly) and a lot of people interpret the Tau as Asian. Yes, racism.


You can not be serious. So people who like the imperium as a faction are not only pro fascism, but also racist....got it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hecaton wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
No, just no. The dark eldar are not a tragic faction in any way shape or form because they have to inflict suffering to survive. They willingly chose to keep their sadistic ways and go down the rabbit hole of depravity further than anyone before. They specifically chose not to take the difficult and disciplined path like the craftworld eldar. Nobody forced them to become the worst sadists in the galaxy, it was their conscious decision. They are pure and utter evil....and that's cool by me, it's an interesting faction, but saying they are more justified than the imperium in their cruelty is just utterly ridiculous. I know you have a hate boner for the imperium and that's fine I guess, but this comparison especially really does not hold up.


No, it's not. There are at least expedient reasons for the Dark Eldar to do what they do. The Imperium makes its own existence less viable with all of its cruelty, but insists on it because it loves cruelty for cruelty's sake.


Did you read anything I said about the dark eldar? Or do you again come to that conclusion based on your apparent lack of knowledge of 40k lore? There is no expedient reason for them to do what they do, there are multiple other options availabe, but they insist on it because they love cruely for cruelty's sake. You have such a raging hate boner for the imperium it's almost comical. No matter how obviously, ridiculously evil another faction is, they can not be worse than the imperium.

Hecaton wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
As to your second point: I did not say the imperium was THE lesser evil, just that it is less evil than dark eldar and chaos, which it obviously is. We've had this discussion before in another thread and there you also kept implying that everyone who does not agree with you supports fascist ideology. I want you to once and for all clarify your stance on whether you believe that I or people in this thread just want to play "future nazis" to act out their fascist fantasies or whatever, based on the discussion in this thread. Because if you genuinely do believe that, we have nothing further to discuss.


I think that people who unironically like the Imperium are pro-fascism (or pro-something close to fascism), yeah. This is a society that kills children born with cleft palettes instead of giving them medical care.


This might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this forum, and there have been some strong contenders. So if I unironically like the dark eldar as a faction, like I said in this very thread, I'm pro-sadism now?

But just to be sure, let me spell this out for you: unironically liking a faction does NOT mean you support that factions fictional world views. Are all dark eldar players suddenly closeted sadomasochistic sadists? Come on man...this is low, even for you.

You flat out pretend to know what's inside peoples minds and then judge them for it.

Hecaton wrote:
Tiberias wrote:
Edti: you also keep proving that you really do not know much about the lore. The negative emotions caused by the imperium did not turn the warp into a hellscape, the war in heaven did. The chaos gods existed way before humanity did.


The Imperium is definitely the strongest influence on it now.


Shifting goalposts much? Don't worry you've proven on multiple occasions that you know very little about the lore, but still make sweeping declarations based on that lack of knowledge, I don't think anyone takes your opinion seriously anymore anyway.


So, what's left to say here...you pretend to know peoples minds for liking or enjoying a fictional faction and then you brand them as pro-fascist and racist by default. You honestly need to take a step back and re-evaluate how you go about judging people, because the close mindedness on display here is actually frightening.
I'm done however, there is no way for me to take the things you say seriously anymore.



Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 06:49:57


Post by: GoldenHorde


Hecaton wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:


Every faction in 40k is self justified in 40k under "might is right" thucydidean sense. Have ye yet not understood the Grim Dark blurb?

Lol trying to sell space slavers and space stalinists as better than others....haha talk about missing the damn point of the setting...


Yes, I got that starter set with the Big Black Book back when it came out. The "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" isn't Cormorragh, it's the Imperium.

The Tau are definitely not Stalinist. And the Imperium practices slavery left, right, and center too.


Your argument is thus:
"My totalitarian bastards are better than your totalitarian bastards because of shallow arbitrary reasons and personal preferences"

I guess DE are mad and self justified because of an intergalactic G-string shortage

Oh no, Tau are not racist they just make all the other species pure vassals underneath them.... hmmm .....

Tau are not racist except despite their super doooper caste system and FORBIDDEN interbreeding policy (sound familiar to a certain historical policy of a certain totalitarian regime you like to cry about) ?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 07:14:04


Post by: Tiberias


 Insectum7 wrote:
Tiberias wrote:

Edti: you also keep proving that you really do not know much about the lore. The negative emotions caused by the imperium did not turn the warp into a hellscape, the war in heaven did. The chaos gods existed way before humanity did.
While the Chaos gods have existed for a long time, the idea that a galaxy spanning, warmongering, xenophobic hegemony somehow doesn't fuel those gods (particularly Khorne and Tzeentch) seems pretty absurd. It could probably be argued that Khorne is a more human variation of the war-god Khaela-Mensha-Khaine, the shattered Eldar war god. We know that Orks have their own gods. . . Eldar do/did . . . So why wouldn't trillions of humans have their own refections/influence on the warp?


And again...

What did I write? And what was the point in contention? Seriously, no offense but nothing you say in your post was argued about.

I did not say that the imperium does not fuel the chaos gods, it obviously does. I just refuted Hecatons claim that the warp turned into a hellscape because of the imperium, which it absolutely did not. The colossal conflicts during the war in heaven, which made the heresy and the crusade look likes childs play, turned the warp into a hellscape.

The point is that humanity was screwed from the beginning. The imperium is cruel and stupid, but there being 4 very personal gods who are actively malicious and prey on human minds and souls, is one of the very few things that is not the imperiums own fault.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 07:25:29


Post by: GoldenHorde


I like how the godwins law guy and co completely ignore that the results of the Horus Heresy DIRECTLY caused a degeneracy of the imperium, and then blame the imperium based on the degenerate form it took after taking a black eye from the ruinous powers.

There's a big difference between pre HH imperium and post HH imperium


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 08:12:10


Post by: harlokin


Tiberias wrote:


Did you read anything I said about the dark eldar? Or do you again come to that conclusion based on your apparent lack of knowledge of 40k lore? There is no expedient reason for them to do what they do, there are multiple other options availabe, but they insist on it because they love cruely for cruelty's sake. You have such a raging hate boner for the imperium it's almost comical. No matter how obviously, ridiculously evil another faction is, they can not be worse than the imperium.


What other options? The Asuryani path system 'works' because they have soul stones, and even then, the very limited availability means that they are barely able to reproduce.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 08:34:25


Post by: Tiberias


GoldenHorde wrote:I like how the godwins law guy and co completely ignore that the results of the Horus Heresy DIRECTLY caused a degeneracy of the imperium, and then blame the imperium based on the degenerate form it took after taking a black eye from the ruinous powers.

There's a big difference between pre HH imperium and post HH imperium


Yes, but the imperium was evil and genocidal before the heresy and probably also during the dark age of technology. The 40k imperium is just even worse as evidenced by the fact that Guilliman, a genocidal warlord from the crusade era, is disgusted by much of the 40k imperium.

harlokin wrote:
Tiberias wrote:


Did you read anything I said about the dark eldar? Or do you again come to that conclusion based on your apparent lack of knowledge of 40k lore? There is no expedient reason for them to do what they do, there are multiple other options availabe, but they insist on it because they love cruely for cruelty's sake. You have such a raging hate boner for the imperium it's almost comical. No matter how obviously, ridiculously evil another faction is, they can not be worse than the imperium.


What other options? The Asuryani path system 'works' because they have soul stones, and even then, the very limited availability means that they are barely able to reproduce.


For example, yes. Or the exodite solution, or whatever cegorach does with his halequins (though this is not an option for all eldar most likely, since it's not that easy to become a harlequin) and most recently, the ynnari. The point being that there are actual in lore examples of alternatives. Considering the dark eldar have some of the most advanced tech in the entire galaxy, they could have very well worked together with their cousins in the last ten thousand years after the fall to come up with a solution. Hence why them feeding on suffering is not a cold hard necessity. It definitely wasn't at the beginning and it didn't have to be in the milennia that followed.

They've been warned before the fall and kept being arrogant hedonists. They turned into vampiric sadists and kept this way for ten thousand years, even though there are other options available they could have poured resources into.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 09:03:25


Post by: harlokin


Tiberias wrote:

For example, yes. Or the exodite solution, or whatever cegorach does with his halequins (though this is not an option for all eldar most likely, since it's not that easy to become a harlequin) and most recently, the ynnari. The point being that there are actual in lore examples of alternatives. Considering the dark eldar have some of the most advanced tech in the entire galaxy, they could have very well worked together with their cousins in the last ten thousand years after the fall to come up with a solution. Hence why them feeding on suffering is not a cold hard necessity. It definitely wasn't at the beginning and it didn't have to be in the milennia that followed.


The Exodite solution? Not even the Asuryani consider that an option; it would be like telling people today that the solution to global warming is to return to a tribal, subsistence, hunter gatherer society.

How many does Cregorach save? A bare handful. There is no suggestion that he is able or willing to do any more than that, and I would imagine onlyn a tiny proportion of the Drukhari population would be capable of becoming Harlequins.

The Ynnari. "Remember those gods that failed you?....Ynnead is totes not like that. All you need to do to be saved is to commit suicide en masse, and this new god will most definitely resurrect you.....yeah.....kool aid is over there."



Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 09:24:21


Post by: Tiberias


 harlokin wrote:
Tiberias wrote:

For example, yes. Or the exodite solution, or whatever cegorach does with his halequins (though this is not an option for all eldar most likely, since it's not that easy to become a harlequin) and most recently, the ynnari. The point being that there are actual in lore examples of alternatives. Considering the dark eldar have some of the most advanced tech in the entire galaxy, they could have very well worked together with their cousins in the last ten thousand years after the fall to come up with a solution. Hence why them feeding on suffering is not a cold hard necessity. It definitely wasn't at the beginning and it didn't have to be in the milennia that followed.


The Exodite solution? Not even the Asuryani consider that an option; it would be like telling people today that the solution to global warming is to return to a tribal, subsistence, hunter gatherer society.

How many does Cregorach save? A bare handful. There is no suggestion that he is able or willing to do any more than that, and I would imagine onlyn a tiny proportion of the Drukhari population would be capable of becoming Harlequins.

The Ynnari. "Remember those gods that failed you?....Ynnead is totes not like that. All you need to do to be saved is to commit suicide en masse, and this new god will most definitely resurrect you.....yeah.....kool aid is over there."



The point still stands.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 09:31:56


Post by: harlokin


I don't get the fuss.

Sure, some Asuryani are killed from time to time, and that is regrettable. Fact is that no real people suffer to sustain the True Kin, just a few animals.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 09:36:12


Post by: Tiberias


 harlokin wrote:
I don't get the fuss.

Sure, some Asuryani are killed from time to time, and that is regrettable. Fact is that no real people suffer to sustain the True Kin, just a few animals.


True

The fuss though is not about our conversation, but Hecaton insisting that dark eldar are more justified in their sadism than the imperium in an attempt to color the imperium as worse than the dark eldar, which is laughable.



Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 09:44:59


Post by: Gert


Just want to point out that arguing with Hecaton will do absolutely nothing for you.
They've brought up "the Imperium kills disabled kids" before and has yet to provide any evidence whatsoever that its true.
Personally I think applying the term "mutant" to a disabled child is pretty stupid and actually quite dangerous, especially when you have no evidence for it. But hey, that's Hecaton. Makes unfounded statements then gets people riled up so threads get locked and posts get deleted.
Do yourselves a favour and don't engage.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 10:04:56


Post by: Tiberias


 Gert wrote:
Just want to point out that arguing with Hecaton will do absolutely nothing for you.
They've brought up "the Imperium kills disabled kids" before and has yet to provide any evidence whatsoever that its true.
Personally I think applying the term "mutant" to a disabled child is pretty stupid and actually quite dangerous, especially when you have no evidence for it. But hey, that's Hecaton. Makes unfounded statements then gets people riled up so threads get locked and posts get deleted.
Do yourselves a favour and don't engage.


You are absolutely right, but after Hecaton flat out said everyone who likes the imperium is a closeted fascist and racist, he deserves to be called out on his crap and he deserves to be ridiculed.

I completely agree with you, but I can not keep my mouth shut if someone spews this much nonsense.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 10:14:44


Post by: Gert


Chief I've been down this road, just report it a move on to people who want to have proper discussions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:

The Exodite solution? Not even the Asuryani consider that an option; it would be like telling people today that the solution to global warming is to return to a tribal, subsistence, hunter gatherer society.

Reject society, return to monke.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 10:32:46


Post by: harlokin


 Gert wrote:
Chief I've been down this road, just report it a move on to people who want to have proper discussions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:

The Exodite solution? Not even the Asuryani consider that an option; it would be like telling people today that the solution to global warming is to return to a tribal, subsistence, hunter gatherer society.

Reject society, return to monke.




Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 11:00:34


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Gert wrote:
Chief I've been down this road, just report it a move on to people who want to have proper discussions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 harlokin wrote:

The Exodite solution? Not even the Asuryani consider that an option; it would be like telling people today that the solution to global warming is to return to a tribal, subsistence, hunter gatherer society.

Reject society, return to monke.

Why would Eldar want to be human though?

Monkeigh is one of 40k's best puns.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 11:08:28


Post by: Gert


Show me someone who says they prefer their life now to sitting in trees eating fruit and nuts with no other care in the world and I will show you a liar


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 11:10:56


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Gert wrote:
Show me someone who says they prefer their life now to sitting in trees eating fruit and nuts with no other care in the world and I will show you a liar

I cannot argue with that.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 12:32:38


Post by: Tiennos


Between craftworlders, exodites, harlequins and ynnari, there are 4 different ways (that we know of) of protecting an eldar's soul from Slaanesh. The drukhari don't even really do that since they just extend their lives as long as possible and when they eventually die for good, they're screwed.
They also have ridiculously advanced technology, mad scientists with zero ethical concerns and all the time in the world. How much effort have they put into finding an actual solution to their soul problem compared to creating new exotic torture devices? We probably don't have an actual answer to that question, but I'm sure that if they wanted to, the drukhari could have come up with a better way of keeping their souls in the last 10 millenia than go: "I just have to stay alive forever. Nothing can go wrong!" How about artificial soulstones or a world spirit in Commorragh, for example?

Truth is, the drukhari just don't want to admit they have a problem.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 12:36:48


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Hecaton wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Obvious question here: what are you trying to imply about imperial players here, if the imperium is as fascist as you claim?


I'm saying that the reason why people glom on to the Imperium as the "justified' faction has a lot to do with how they're portrayed as European (mostly) and a lot of people interpret the Tau as Asian. Yes, racism.
And what about what Arcanis actually asked, which was about Imperial players in general? What about Imperial players who are well aware that the Imperium isn't justified, and is an awful regime?

Racists are racist, but are you claiming that everyone who plays an Imperial faction is?


Tiberias wrote:
As to your second point: I did not say the imperium was THE lesser evil, just that it is less evil than dark eldar and chaos, which it obviously is. We've had this discussion before in another thread and there you also kept implying that everyone who does not agree with you supports fascist ideology. I want you to once and for all clarify your stance on whether you believe that I or people in this thread just want to play "future nazis" to act out their fascist fantasies or whatever, based on the discussion in this thread. Because if you genuinely do believe that, we have nothing further to discuss.


I think that people who unironically like the Imperium are pro-fascism (or pro-something close to fascism), yeah.
Sure, but that's not all Imperium players, is it? People who like the Imperium *and are fully aware of it's awfulness* definitely are, but that's not all Imperium players.

So, would you care you clarify your stance on those people who are well aware of the Imperium's awfulness and *don't* support it?
This is a society that kills children born with cleft palettes instead of giving them medical care.
As pointed out now in several threads, no, they don't - at least, not institutionally.

Quit peddling your misinformation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tiennos wrote:
Between craftworlders, exodites, harlequins and ynnari, there are 4 different ways (that we know of) of protecting an eldar's soul from Slaanesh. The drukhari don't even really do that since they just extend their lives as long as possible and when they eventually die for good, they're screwed.
They also have ridiculously advanced technology, mad scientists with zero ethical concerns and all the time in the world. How much effort have they put into finding an actual solution to their soul problem compared to creating new exotic torture devices? We probably don't have an actual answer to that question, but I'm sure that if they wanted to, the drukhari could have come up with a better way of keeping their souls in the last 10 millenia than go: "I just have to stay alive forever. Nothing can go wrong!" How about artificial soulstones or a world spirit in Commorragh, for example?

Truth is, the drukhari just don't want to admit they have a problem.
Yeah, I'm agreed with that. The Drukhari are just as guilty of failing to improve their moral conduct and behaviour as the Imperium.

They're totally capable of being better, and not having to propagate a system of brutality (and even the oft-forgiven Orks are still explicitly slavers), but they refuse to be better.

This isn't defending the Imperium, it's just making clear that while the Imperium is awful, so is everyone else. Other people being awful still won't exonerate the Imperium.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 13:04:09


Post by: GoldenHorde


I love how godwins law guy basically turned it up to 11

"WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE FICTIONAL CHILDREN!!!????"


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 15:28:23


Post by: moreorless


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

This isn't defending the Imperium, it's just making clear that while the Imperium is awful, so is everyone else. Other people being awful still won't exonerate the Imperium.


Really though I think its just an indication that the setting as originally created was never intended to have "good guys". Honestly back in the day I always felt that was one of the most interesting things about 40K, that it kept the kind of dystopic view as something like Judge Dread, maybe with the satire turned down a bit but still having some of that kind of punky character it to relative to Star Wars and all of the settings that followed it.

I think it was easier to sustain that position when the lore itself was a bit more limited and besides models it was actually illustrations that provided a lot of the character rather than novels. The more detail thats been added the closer the setting has tended to shift to Starwars like fantasy and thats quite hard to square with original intentions.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/23 16:31:18


Post by: Deadnight


Hehe, I remember 3rd Ed, when 'Grimdark' was very much 150%, the universe wasn't filled in, and 'make your own story' was very much the direction, rather than '[named character] and frirnds'.

Imperium is horrible and awful. So is everyone else. I remember the introduction of the naive, optimistic tau, twenty odd years ago and they were initially set up as the 'closest thing to the good guys' and they didn't have the mind control or other sinister aspects that have since been introduced. They were very much presented as the contrast that showed how horrible everything else was.

I miss the first generation of tau. :(


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/24 03:01:17


Post by: Altima


 Tiennos wrote:
Between craftworlders, exodites, harlequins and ynnari, there are 4 different ways (that we know of) of protecting an eldar's soul from Slaanesh. The drukhari don't even really do that since they just extend their lives as long as possible and when they eventually die for good, they're screwed.
They also have ridiculously advanced technology, mad scientists with zero ethical concerns and all the time in the world. How much effort have they put into finding an actual solution to their soul problem compared to creating new exotic torture devices? We probably don't have an actual answer to that question, but I'm sure that if they wanted to, the drukhari could have come up with a better way of keeping their souls in the last 10 millenia than go: "I just have to stay alive forever. Nothing can go wrong!" How about artificial soulstones or a world spirit in Commorragh, for example?

Truth is, the drukhari just don't want to admit they have a problem.


Spoiler:
Really, all the ways the Eldar currently 'control' Slaanesh nomming on their souls are horrendously flawed. Drukhari are eventually eaten but until then, they keep their numbers up through massive clone vats with relatively naturally born occurring and have to keep getting riches to pay off haemonculus to bring them back from the dead, assuming a piece of their body can be recovered from whatever kills them.

That's on top of Eldar being naturally gifted in the warp and being a psyker is strictly banned in their society for the most part. Most likely they slaughter anyone in Commoragh that displays such ability. I would suspect that this would eventually lead to losing the ability to become psykers.

Exodites are essentially confined to their maiden worlds with their totems that protect them. No advanced tech either and at the mercy of every other space faring race. Given that this is 40k, this is just self inflicted extinction with extra steps.

Craftworld Eldar 'best' control Slaanesh over the long term, except it has created a rigid society where Eldar are prone to losing themselves to their path, or just flat out leaving the craftworlds to become corsairs. Because of their self-denialism, their birth rates are extremely low. This...normally wouldn't be a problem for a long lived race, but their Craftworlds are by no means secure. There's quite a few examples of Craftworlds being destroyed, their populations massacred, or the Craftworld themselves damaged leaving their population in precarious situations. The fact that they don't use cloning vats like the Dark Eldar indicate that either there's a flaw in that process (maybe it inhibits the psyker gene which is vital to Craftworld survival through warlocks/farseers and bonesingers) or they simply don't have the resources to support a larger population. Also, when Craftworld eldar die, they're just shoved into the Infinity Circuit where, once again, if damaged or destroyed, sends their souls straight into Slaanesh's maw.

As for Ynnari, yeah, that's been pretty well covered. The pragmatic solution would be to keep cloning dark eldar and feeding them to it until it attained godhood and kicked Slaanesh's ass. But that sounds like a horrible idea that would birth some sort of insane destruction god.


moreorless wrote:


Really though I think its just an indication that the setting as originally created was never intended to have "good guys". Honestly back in the day I always felt that was one of the most interesting things about 40K, that it kept the kind of dystopic view as something like Judge Dread, maybe with the satire turned down a bit but still having some of that kind of punky character it to relative to Star Wars and all of the settings that followed it.

I think it was easier to sustain that position when the lore itself was a bit more limited and besides models it was actually illustrations that provided a lot of the character rather than novels. The more detail thats been added the closer the setting has tended to shift to Starwars like fantasy and thats quite hard to square with original intentions.


Spoiler:
I mean, I still think the setting is supposed to be Grimdark with no 'good guys' with even the people we're supposed to empathize or identify with still being, by modern standards awful, xenophobic, fanatical monsters. It's just that they're placed in situations where those negative traits are minimized. When your opponents are psychic torture demons or world ending monsters seeking to wipe out all life in the universe, guys fighting on the front lines don't get a lot of time do things like war crime their prisoners or brutalize the civilian population because they weren't pious enough.


Deadnight wrote:
Hehe, I remember 3rd Ed, when 'Grimdark' was very much 150%, the universe wasn't filled in, and 'make your own story' was very much the direction, rather than '[named character] and frirnds'.

Imperium is horrible and awful. So is everyone else. I remember the introduction of the naive, optimistic tau, twenty odd years ago and they were initially set up as the 'closest thing to the good guys' and they didn't have the mind control or other sinister aspects that have since been introduced. They were very much presented as the contrast that showed how horrible everything else was.

I miss the first generation of tau. :(


Spoiler:
Unfortunately GW botched the introduction of the Tau. What they should have done was have the Tau struggled to 'do the right thing.' Every time they put the 'good' over practical (by in universe standards) actions, they should have either failed or achieved their objectives by drowning their enemies in Tau blood. And every time they did something practical or bloody, they should have been rewarded. Make people think, "Well, why don't you do that all the time!"

Instead, GW just gave them massive amounts of plot armor to the point where they were clearly GW's favorite for a brief time, maybe even over space marines at least in fluff. A massive Imperial Crusade essentially beaten back by an upstart xenos empire, help from the Eldar, no hardships that the rest of the galaxy experiences regularly, making friends, everything all peace and love. They really stood out and were made to feel like some sort of mary sue race shoved into a universe where, essentially, everyone loses constantly.




Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/24 03:09:55


Post by: GoldenHorde


Can you explain how "good guys" steal other peoples worlds and force them into being vassals?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/24 05:33:55


Post by: Veldrain


 GoldenHorde wrote:
Can you explain how "good guys" steal other peoples worlds and force them into being vassals?


The idea of vassals sounds kinda good compared to:
Torn apart by laughing orks
Disintegrated by green lasers
Turned into living art works by the dark eldar
Eaten
Having your world glassed by the Imperium
Being shoved onto the set of Event Horizon by chaos


Don't think to hard about this stuff because it's all relative. And stuffed into a freight elevator to hell.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/24 07:37:16


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Veldrain wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Can you explain how "good guys" steal other peoples worlds and force them into being vassals?


Having your world glassed by the Imperium

The IoM is also likely to turn your world into what is effectively a vassal. Well, provided the population is human, that is.
The idea that the Imperium is exterminatus happy is something of a meme.
Still a bloody terrible outcome though. Either way you're part of an authoritarian and collectivist empire.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/24 09:38:52


Post by: Andykp


My take on the the dark eldar, having read the novels and played against them a lot is that they act all evil and sadistic, but really they are just pathetic wretches clinging to existence. Al, the cruel stuff they do because they enjoy it, they really do because they “need” to to survive. They are like drug addicts. Very tragic and very sad and very 40K. They have all they tech and if they got their heads out of their arses for a while they could likely come up with better solutions etc but don’t because they are so dependent on their behaviour. The idea that they are happy doing what they do is a facade they project to hide their addiction. Yeah it’s fun when they are high but the come down is always there.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/24 10:11:31


Post by: Altima


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The IoM is also likely to turn your world into what is effectively a vassal. Well, provided the population is human, that is.
The idea that the Imperium is exterminatus happy is something of a meme.
Still a bloody terrible outcome though. Either way you're part of an authoritarian and collectivist empire.


Most worlds under Imperial rule actually seem to come out better for it. Or at the very least, not as worse, since many already seem to have some form of authoritarian leadership as it stands. As long as you pay your tithe and worship the Emperor and are willing to accept a few Imperial laws and agents, most worlds seem to be given pretty remarkable autonomy. Even the Ecclesiarchy is fairly generous, usually co-opting an existing deity and declaring it an aspect of the Emperor than trying to conform a single faith. Worship a forest spirit? He's the Emperor. Worship the sun? It's an incarnation of the Emperor's divine light! Worship a machine god who may or may not (until recently) be a slumbering C'tan? Emps again!

In return, your world is opened to galactic trade and technology and has a reasonable chance of receiving pretty significant protection. Contrary to popular belief, the Imperium doesn't always leave worlds to just die--they do make attempts to evacuate worlds under invasions, to stamp out rebellions, hunt down pirates, etc. All things a lone world would have to deal with themselves anyway.

The tithe also doesn't seem to be particularly brutal. It can be anything from crops to natural resources (even renewable resources like wood) to manufactured goods to even regiments for the 'guard.

It's not all puppies and rainbows--some worlds are lost through inept management. Others are indeed abandoned because sufficient forces to defend cannot be redeployed in time. Sometimes your world is burned as part of a larger plan like Kryptman's gambit against Leviathan. But being under Imperial rule doesn't immediately turn a world into a soul crushing dystopia.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/24 10:28:51


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Yeah the Imperium's bureaucracy is pretty terrible. It's like Brazil (the movie, not the country) except worse.

There are indeed a surprising number of denominations of the Imperial Cult. It's pretty much a reference to what Christian missionaries would do; take a local custom and spin it to be a part of the faith so that Christianity could better spread in that region.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/24 10:48:31


Post by: Gert


Yeah, the whole "taking your God and saying it's our God" isn't a good thing. It's manipulation as a tool of control.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/24 12:33:21


Post by: 123ply


 Gert wrote:
Catulle wrote:


For sure, but this one's a gimme.

Before the Horus Heresy stuff came out? Sure, it's up for grabs but after they're portrayed as the ultimate enforcers of the Emperor's will? Not so much.


The Imperium is a fascist state; and it's okay to collect little fascist armies (even when you lose, everyone wins!) - one of the best things about 40k is that everyone sucks, so it's a perpetua' scrabble for the bottom .

All this shows is you don't know jack about both the Space Wolves and the Waffen SS.

Space Wolves - Army of indoctrinated super soldiers with some of the best weapons and equipment known to man who also happen to savage warriors. Despite their savage appearance and battlefield tactics the Wolves are in fact not terrible and possess a deep sense of honour which is not reserved for Astartes alone. Mortal forces are often held in high regard by the Wolves. Wore grey armour during the Crusade and Heresy, changed to a blue-ish tint post-Heresy.

Waffen SS - Army of mostly foreign volunteers who were massive racists/anti-semites who were often not professional soldiers at all and really only existed to be terrorists. Wore as much grey as the regular Wehrmacht forces and even then tended to wear camo uniforms. Hated by literally everyone including the Wehrmacht.


You're half right with the SS. You're describing late 1943/1944 to 1945 Waffen SS

Until 1943 or 44 the Waffen SS had very strict requirements. You even had to be over a certain height to join, so that eliminates competent people who aren't tall enough. Also, the SS (and tank crews) wore black, not grey. Grey was Wermacht. Until 1944 when just about every SS, panzergrenadier, and fallschrimjager init was outfitted with camo coats and whatnot.

So yeah the SS was actually an elite branch at first as they were supposed to be Hitler's personal bodyguard/army afterall, but because they are the Nazi party's personal military you dont ever hear about their accomplishments unlike with the Wermacht, but they did do some impressive things. There was also one SS division that was famous for not committing any warcrimes but I forget which one it is. Regardless, they started off as a crack fighting force.

For example the 2nd panzer corps which was composed of the 3 most famous Waffen SS divisions (1st, 2nd and 3rd SS panzergrenadier divisions) was responsible for establishing the southern flank at the battle of kursk after the Army units got bogged down on the first few day hours. The strongest division, the 3rd, went straight on to face the 52nd Guards Rifle Division along a 12 km stretch of the outer defensive belt full of heavy guns, bunkers and minefields while the 1st and second worked their way around, eventually enveloping and almost completely wiping out the Guards Rifles. The 2nd ss panzergrenadier division even battled, and in 4 hours, routed the Soviets 4th Guards Tank Army in the middle of the chaos. By the time the other two (Wermacht) panzer corps penetrated the belt it was basically already cleared.

The 2nd SS panzer Corp almost single handedly broke through their part of the first of three defense belts in less than 24 hours. 12kms of heavy defenses ment to slow down and weaken the Germans barely weakened the SS elements while the pincer of North army took nearly 2 days to penetrate their part of the belt. (They had more men and armour but there was also much more resistance.)

The SS divisions took extremely heavy losses at Kursk but were also invaluable. I'm not sure where I read this but I think it was wikipedia lol so check it out. I probably got a lot of the small details like division numbers wrong but it's all available online


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/25 06:20:51


Post by: Hecaton


 Gert wrote:
Just want to point out that arguing with Hecaton will do absolutely nothing for you.
They've brought up "the Imperium kills disabled kids" before and has yet to provide any evidence whatsoever that its true.
Personally I think applying the term "mutant" to a disabled child is pretty stupid and actually quite dangerous, especially when you have no evidence for it. But hey, that's Hecaton. Makes unfounded statements then gets people riled up so threads get locked and posts get deleted.
Do yourselves a favour and don't engage.


Dude, I posted screenshots from the Rogue Trader rulebook, are you going to pretend they don't exist? Here they are again:





So you can see that "mutation" included people with developmental issues from environmental pollution (caused by the Imperium and AdMech's blatant disregard for the health of its citizens) *and* people with these mutations are overwhelmingly killed as a matter of course. Yes, this means they're killing babies with cleft palettes etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
I mean, holy fething gak, there is a lot to unpack here...

You can not be serious. So people who like the imperium as a faction are not only pro fascism, but also racist....got it.


There's a reason that people have glommed on to the Imperium as the "justified" faction, when it's the Tau who are the "we try to be good but it's a harsh fething galaxy so we gotta make tough choices" faction.


Tiberias wrote:
This might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this forum, and there have been some strong contenders. So if I unironically like the dark eldar as a faction, like I said in this very thread, I'm pro-sadism now?

But just to be sure, let me spell this out for you: unironically liking a faction does NOT mean you support that factions fictional world views. Are all dark eldar players suddenly closeted sadomasochistic sadists? Come on man...this is low, even for you.


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/25 06:29:01


Post by: GoldenHorde


Hecaton wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Just want to point out that arguing with Hecaton will do absolutely nothing for you.
They've brought up "the Imperium kills disabled kids" before and has yet to provide any evidence whatsoever that its true.
Personally I think applying the term "mutant" to a disabled child is pretty stupid and actually quite dangerous, especially when you have no evidence for it. But hey, that's Hecaton. Makes unfounded statements then gets people riled up so threads get locked and posts get deleted.
Do yourselves a favour and don't engage.


Dude, I posted screenshots from the Rogue Trader rulebook, are you going to pretend they don't exist? Here they are again:





So you can see that "mutation" included people with developmental issues from environmental pollution (caused by the Imperium and AdMech's blatant disregard for the health of its citizens) *and* people with these mutations are overwhelmingly killed as a matter of course. Yes, this means they're killing babies with cleft palettes etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberias wrote:
I mean, holy fething gak, there is a lot to unpack here...

You can not be serious. So people who like the imperium as a faction are not only pro fascism, but also racist....got it.


There's a reason that people have glommed on to the Imperium as the "justified" faction, when it's the Tau who are the "we try to be good but it's a harsh fething galaxy so we gotta make tough choices" faction.


Tiberias wrote:
This might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this forum, and there have been some strong contenders. So if I unironically like the dark eldar as a faction, like I said in this very thread, I'm pro-sadism now?

But just to be sure, let me spell this out for you: unironically liking a faction does NOT mean you support that factions fictional world views. Are all dark eldar players suddenly closeted sadomasochistic sadists? Come on man...this is low, even for you.


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.


That;s not true, they just tell that to the parents

Where do you think all the CHERUBS come from


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Imagine we put Godwin's law into 40k and made him a statesman......


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/25 10:34:42


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Hecaton wrote:


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?
I take it then that Tau fans are also into rigid caste systems, imperialism and authoritarianism? Tyranid fans are into vore?
You know that most people don't do things ironically, right? That's something that insincere snobs do.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/25 11:58:49


Post by: Tiberias


Hecaton wrote:

If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.


If you're a troll, kudos. You got everyone.

If not, get help.

I feel bad for not having contributed to OPs question, so here it goes:

As far as I understand it, space marines definitely don't start at a default and then go from there adapting to their chapters quirks and tactics. Space marines can have some pretty extreme outliers, depending on how an aspirant reacts to the geneseed. Take Tyberios the red wake for example, who is almost a walking dreadnought or Asterion Moloc from the Minotaurs, who is definitely not a standard chapter master (my fantheory is still that Moloc is some sort of Thunder Warrior/Space Marine splicing experiment by the high lords à la the Mountain from GoT)

I think the geneseed itself to a certain extent shapes what propensity a chapter has. The space wolves ferocity is largely due to their geneseed.

As for supremacy, I think you can only put one chapter above another in certain specific ​aspects: the space wolves/blood angels have a higher propensity and specialisation towards close quarters combat than the ultramarines. So generally they will excel more in that area, but that does not mean all Ultramarines suck in melee. As I said space marines can have pretty big outliers, for example in the horus heresy novels an ultramarines captain takes apart kharn in a 1vs1 fight and would have probably killed him....but then Angron stepped in. Another example here is the imperial fists who are generally not as melee focused as the wolves, but they had among them the deadliest space marines duelist ever in Sigismund. Who again is an extreme outlier.
So each chapter has it's certain strengths and weaknesses, but certain individuals among those chapters can step outside those weaknesses.

As for space marine chapter vs space marine chapter, I'd give it to the minotaurs. Simply because they have the backing of the high lords, have some of the best toys because of that and they have experience doing it (Badab War).
The Dark Angels are also a strong contender to be able to take on another chapter, because they have some extremely potent dark age of technology weapons that rarely any other chapter has access to, and they are quite numerous I believe when you count their successor chapters, who are all loyal to Azrael.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/25 12:28:35


Post by: Gert


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?

You don't want all sentient life to die? Very disappointed in you.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/25 12:30:11


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Gert wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?

You don't want all sentient life to die? Very disappointed in you.

Of course not. Some of the birds are ok


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/25 13:13:14


Post by: Gert


Going back to the OP's question about Chapter VS Chapter. I don't think it's something that you can easily quantify and personal bias plays heavily into it.
I play Deathwatch who have all sorts of weapons and ammo designed to melt through a Carnifex or burn a target inside to out. Add to that the huge number of Watch Fortresses with unknown numbers of Astartes and it kind of means by default the Deathwatch would win, right? But then the Deathwatch doesn't operate like a normal Chapter and each Watch Fortress is basically a Chapter unto itself.
Each Chapter has its strengths and weaknesses.
My biggest gripe about the Minotaurs is that they never seem to have a weakness outside of "the High Lords tell them what to do". Moloc is such a great warrior even the Custodes know of him, the Minotaurs never seem to lose a battle/war. It reads like bad fanfiction IMO. At least the Carcharadons have super rage they need to control and exist basically in exile, reducing their effectiveness.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/25 13:50:51


Post by: Tiberias


 Gert wrote:
Going back to the OP's question about Chapter VS Chapter. I don't think it's something that you can easily quantify and personal bias plays heavily into it.
I play Deathwatch who have all sorts of weapons and ammo designed to melt through a Carnifex or burn a target inside to out. Add to that the huge number of Watch Fortresses with unknown numbers of Astartes and it kind of means by default the Deathwatch would win, right? But then the Deathwatch doesn't operate like a normal Chapter and each Watch Fortress is basically a Chapter unto itself.
Each Chapter has its strengths and weaknesses.
My biggest gripe about the Minotaurs is that they never seem to have a weakness outside of "the High Lords tell them what to do". Moloc is such a great warrior even the Custodes know of him, the Minotaurs never seem to lose a battle/war. It reads like bad fanfiction IMO. At least the Carcharadons have super rage they need to control and exist basically in exile, reducing their effectiveness.


The Minotaurs are massive douchebags though and virtually nobody in the lore likes them or wants to work with them. Maybe that's their negative?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/25 14:21:09


Post by: Gert


The problem is the behaviour of the Minotaurs never seems to result in an actual negative. Oh no, they're banned from Ultramar, which doesn't actually need them because the Ultramarines and like 20 of their Successors have their homeworlds within the 500 Worlds. Most Chapters hate them because they're puppets of the High Lords, oh well here's loads of brilliant equipment and priceless relics.



Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/25 17:21:46


Post by: Hecaton


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?
I take it then that Tau fans are also into rigid caste systems, imperialism and authoritarianism? Tyranid fans are into vore?
You know that most people don't do things ironically, right? That's something that insincere snobs do.


If you don't want all life to end, then yes, your appreciation for Necrons is on some level ironic.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/25 17:42:58


Post by: Arcanis161


Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?
I take it then that Tau fans are also into rigid caste systems, imperialism and authoritarianism? Tyranid fans are into vore?
You know that most people don't do things ironically, right? That's something that insincere snobs do.


If you don't want all life to end, then yes, your appreciation for Necrons is on some level ironic.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary site:

irony noun

iro·​ny | \ ˈī-rə-nē also ˈī(-ə)r-nē \
plural ironies
Definition of irony
1a: the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning
b: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony
c: an ironic expression or utterance
2a(1): incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result
(2): an event or result marked by such incongruity
b: incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play
— called also dramatic irony

3: a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning
— called also Socratic irony





Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/25 17:48:38


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Hecaton wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Just want to point out that arguing with Hecaton will do absolutely nothing for you.
They've brought up "the Imperium kills disabled kids" before and has yet to provide any evidence whatsoever that its true.
Personally I think applying the term "mutant" to a disabled child is pretty stupid and actually quite dangerous, especially when you have no evidence for it. But hey, that's Hecaton. Makes unfounded statements then gets people riled up so threads get locked and posts get deleted.
Do yourselves a favour and don't engage.


Dude, I posted screenshots from the Rogue Trader rulebook, are you going to pretend they don't exist? Here they are again:
You've shown them before. The problem is that they don't claim what you've said.

It claims that mutation is common. This is evident, but it doesn't imply that the eradication of all mutation is, and where it does explain what a "mutation" is, they refer to entirely fictional and particularly outlandish cases - not "disabled kids".

Additionally, if the Imperium institutionally killed "mutants" at birth, that wouldn't explain the line of "another thousand that dwell hidden in the shadows" - nor would it explain such phenomena as the irradiated and near-crippled populace of Baal, or the Van Saar gangs, or really *any* of the countless dozens of disabled citizens we see in the various fictions.

It simply isn't true what you claim that the Imperium is institutionally genocidal of *all* mutations.

So you can see that "mutation" included people with developmental issues from environmental pollution (caused by the Imperium and AdMech's blatant disregard for the health of its citizens) *and* people with these mutations are overwhelmingly killed as a matter of course. Yes, this means they're killing babies with cleft palettes etc.
No it doesn't. If it was killing babies with cleft palettes, how come "thousands dwell hidden in the shadows"? Moreover, the only mutations it specifically calls out are outrageous fantastical ones. Not "mundane" ones.

Look, you're either trolling, or deliberately misrepresenting stuff to prove some kind of point, but it's pretty dull, whatever it is.


Tiberias wrote:
I mean, holy fething gak, there is a lot to unpack here...

You can not be serious. So people who like the imperium as a faction are not only pro fascism, but also racist....got it.


There's a reason that people have glommed on to the Imperium as the "justified" faction, when it's the Tau who are the "we try to be good but it's a harsh fething galaxy so we gotta make tough choices" faction.
Would you care to voice that reason, instead of playing coy?


Tiberias wrote:
This might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this forum, and there have been some strong contenders. So if I unironically like the dark eldar as a faction, like I said in this very thread, I'm pro-sadism now?

But just to be sure, let me spell this out for you: unironically liking a faction does NOT mean you support that factions fictional world views. Are all dark eldar players suddenly closeted sadomasochistic sadists? Come on man...this is low, even for you.


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.
Does someone who unironically likes Tyranids want to consume all biomass and devour the very stars themselves?

While I myself am *very* critical of anyone who sees the Imperium as "good" or "justified" or in any way an "ideal" society, you can *enjoy* a fictional faction without supporting it in the real world, and this almost certainly doesn't apply to all factions, because that would be ridiculous.
The issue is when their enjoyment of fictional toy soldiers starts manifesting in their real world actions and behaviours.

But, hey, if you want to call all Imperial players fascists, please, do so with your whole chest, instead of hiding behind these coy, sly slights. Make your opinions known, if you believe them so strongly.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/26 01:52:20


Post by: Hecaton


Arcanis161 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?
I take it then that Tau fans are also into rigid caste systems, imperialism and authoritarianism? Tyranid fans are into vore?
You know that most people don't do things ironically, right? That's something that insincere snobs do.


If you don't want all life to end, then yes, your appreciation for Necrons is on some level ironic.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary site:

irony noun

iro·​ny | \ ˈī-rə-nē also ˈī(-ə)r-nē \
plural ironies
Definition of irony
1a: the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning
b: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony
c: an ironic expression or utterance
2a(1): incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result
(2): an event or result marked by such incongruity
b: incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play
— called also dramatic irony

3: a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning
— called also Socratic irony





Nah, I know exactly what it means. Read your own definitions again.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/26 16:14:34


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?
I take it then that Tau fans are also into rigid caste systems, imperialism and authoritarianism? Tyranid fans are into vore?
You know that most people don't do things ironically, right? That's something that insincere snobs do.


If you don't want all life to end, then yes, your appreciation for Necrons is on some level ironic.

Except it isn't though? Good of you to tell me how I feel about my own army.
That's not hubris at all


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/26 16:51:23


Post by: Hecaton


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Except it isn't though? Good of you to tell me how I feel about my own army.
That's not hubris at all


If your appreciation for Necrons is unironic than you think they're justified and laudable.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/26 16:58:42


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Except it isn't though? Good of you to tell me how I feel about my own army.
That's not hubris at all


If your appreciation for Necrons is unironic than you think they're justified and laudable.

No, I did not collect Necrons for over a decade out of irony nor because I think omnicide is good
It's almost as if your stance is absurd to begin with.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/26 17:54:36


Post by: Arcanis161


Hecaton wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:


If you like a faction "unironically," then yes, you *would* support that faction's fictional world views. If you enjoy the dark eldar as a faction without thinking they're laudable, then your appreciation for them is *ironic*, at least the way I'm using it.

So since I'm a necron player, I want all life to die unless I don't actually like them and only collect them ironically?
I take it then that Tau fans are also into rigid caste systems, imperialism and authoritarianism? Tyranid fans are into vore?
You know that most people don't do things ironically, right? That's something that insincere snobs do.


If you don't want all life to end, then yes, your appreciation for Necrons is on some level ironic.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary site:

irony noun

iro·​ny | \ ˈī-rə-nē also ˈī(-ə)r-nē \
plural ironies
Definition of irony
1a: the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning
b: a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony
c: an ironic expression or utterance
2a(1): incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result
(2): an event or result marked by such incongruity
b: incongruity between a situation developed in a drama and the accompanying words or actions that is understood by the audience but not by the characters in the play
— called also dramatic irony

3: a pretense of ignorance and of willingness to learn from another assumed in order to make the other's false conceptions conspicuous by adroit questioning
— called also Socratic irony





Nah, I know exactly what it means. Read your own definitions again.


No, by all means, enlighten us "uneducated simpletons". I insist.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/26 20:48:58


Post by: Arachnofiend


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Except it isn't though? Good of you to tell me how I feel about my own army.
That's not hubris at all


If your appreciation for Necrons is unironic than you think they're justified and laudable.

No, I did not collect Necrons for over a decade out of irony nor because I think omnicide is good
It's almost as if your stance is absurd to begin with.

I like Necrons because I like the spooky undead faction basically whenever that's an option. My nihilistic desire for the extinction of all life is unrelated


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/26 20:49:21


Post by: BrianDavion


People enjoy the factions they do in 40k for many reasons. and I suspect "their politics" rarely comes into the factor beyond maybe some vague "I find it INTREASTING" one can find something intreasting without supporting it.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/26 20:58:23


Post by: Arcanis161


BrianDavion wrote:
People enjoy the factions they do in 40k for many reasons. and I suspect "their politics" rarely comes into the factor beyond maybe some vague "I find it INTREASTING" one can find something intreasting without supporting it.


I value human life. I play Imperial Guard.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/26 20:59:09


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Arcanis161 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
People enjoy the factions they do in 40k for many reasons. and I suspect "their politics" rarely comes into the factor beyond maybe some vague "I find it INTREASTING" one can find something intreasting without supporting it.


I value human life. I play Imperial Guard.

I dislike violence and loud noises.
I play Orks.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/26 21:33:36


Post by: Tiberias


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Arcanis161 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
People enjoy the factions they do in 40k for many reasons. and I suspect "their politics" rarely comes into the factor beyond maybe some vague "I find it INTREASTING" one can find something intreasting without supporting it.


I value human life. I play Imperial Guard.

I dislike violence and loud noises.
I play Orks.


Apparently you both can't unironically enjoy those factions then, because Hecaton knows better than you why you want to play those factions.

At this point I am almost convinced that Hecaton is just a massive troll.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/26 21:41:04


Post by: Andykp


That all sounds pretty standard for Hecaton, apparently you can’t be in favour of female marines without being a sexual deviant.

I collect orks, marines, necrons, guard and admech! Do I have to follow all of their dog,as, because that will get confusing.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/26 21:52:48


Post by: Tiberias


Andykp wrote:
That all sounds pretty standard for Hecaton, apparently you can’t be in favour of female marines without being a sexual deviant.

I collect orks, marines, necrons, guard and admech! Do I have to follow all of their dog,as, because that will get confusing.


So you're saying you unironically like those factions and find them interesting? Like you actually enjoy playing and collecting them and even maybe enjoy their lore?
Well then let me tell you that you are not only violent (orks) but also a fascist (marines, guard), into omnicide and nihilism (necrons) and into religious dogma (admech)....oh and apparently you are a racist, cause why not....

So even if you tell me that you have a nuanced view of the setting and you do not actually support fascism for playing marines because you are not an idiot, I won't believe you, because I know better than you what you think and what your worldviews are.
*Hecaton in a nutshell*


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/27 02:51:27


Post by: Hellebore


If we're diving down this rabbit hole, I'm a socialist-humanist agnostic-atheist anti-warite. But as I can separate fantasy from reality, I can entertain an idea without accepting it.

I can play make believe and pretend without buying into or ironically accepting the premise on which said make-believe is built. I have no problem consuming fantasy horror and fantasy war without it either reflecting my values or requiring an ironic hypocrisy of my values.

Many people wish to stare at a car accident as they go by, and it has nothing to do with wanting car accidents to happen or ironically accepting car accidents happen.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/27 21:11:09


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Necrons don’t want to wipe out all life though, do they?

They want to reverse bio-transference. Without a suitable host species, that’s just not going to happen. So wiping out all life is big trouble.

Hence The Silent King turned back from his exile when he encountered the Tyranids in the void.

If he wanted all biological life exterminated? Why bother, just leave it to the Nids, and rule over the wasteland they leave once the Galaxy is consumed - given they don’t tend to scoff metals.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/27 21:23:59


Post by: Gert


Depends on the Cron I guess. Some a happy with being immortal murder machines, some aren't.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/27 21:45:12


Post by: Arachnofiend


Szarekh wants to reverse bio-transference, the Sautekh are mostly concerned with reclaiming the old empire, the Novokh are murder machines with unique frenzy protocols that activate when they sense blood. As much if not more diversity in goals among the Necrons as any other faction, really.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/27 21:59:46


Post by: Andykp


Tiberias wrote:
Andykp wrote:
That all sounds pretty standard for Hecaton, apparently you can’t be in favour of female marines without being a sexual deviant.

I collect orks, marines, necrons, guard and admech! Do I have to follow all of their dog,as, because that will get confusing.


So you're saying you unironically like those factions and find them interesting? Like you actually enjoy playing and collecting them and even maybe enjoy their lore?
Well then let me tell you that you are not only violent (orks) but also a fascist (marines, guard), into omnicide and nihilism (necrons) and into religious dogma (admech)....oh and apparently you are a racist, cause why not....

So even if you tell me that you have a nuanced view of the setting and you do not actually support fascism for playing marines because you are not an idiot, I won't believe you, because I know better than you what you think and what your worldviews are.
*Hecaton in a nutshell*


Well that makes me sound pretty complex! What are you if you play demons I wonder?


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/28 00:45:20


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Necrons don’t want to wipe out all life though, do they?

They want to reverse bio-transference. Without a suitable host species, that’s just not going to happen. So wiping out all life is big trouble.

Hence The Silent King turned back from his exile when he encountered the Tyranids in the void.

If he wanted all biological life exterminated? Why bother, just leave it to the Nids, and rule over the wasteland they leave once the Galaxy is consumed - given they don’t tend to scoff metals.

They did when I started them
Although "wipe out all life" isn't exactly accurate per se.
A more accurate description of their MO was "prepare the galaxy to be the C'tan's all you can eat buffet"
If the Tyranids were locusts out to eat everyone, Necrons were factory farmers. It also explained why the Necrons would bother fighting nids - the bugs are killing the C'tan's livestock.

But yes, Wardcrons are mostly into reversing biotransference. Although there are subfactions who still want to wipe out life (such as the Destroyer Cults), those are a minority.
The plot-lines about C'tan aiming to harvest all life, creating new generations of Necrons (Pariahs) and separating off the galaxy from the Warp were all dropped, which is a pity because those were freaky as hell. The last page of the 3rd ed codex tells of an Eldar vision about what would happen if the C'tan win, and it's pretty disturbing.

C'tan were really evil and a huge threat in 3rd ed. They didn't want to eat people because they needed to, the codex made it clear that the C'tan's natural food source, stars, were enough for them. They wanted to drain life because it was tasty. They were the Vampires Counts of the setting, right down to having a superiority complex.
Then GW made them into bloody pokemon


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/28 01:02:01


Post by: Gert


Having played Necrons in 5th when that new Codex came out, that doesn't really track with the book. Most Necrons were fine with the Biotransference but not with the C'tan using their meat bodies as food which they saw as just a bit rude. Imotehk very much doesn't want to reverse the procedure and most Necrons seem to be the same. Anrakyr the Traveller seems to just vibe, Trazyn uses his long life to be a general prat and giant nerd, Zandrehk and Obyron are awesome, Szeras likes cutting people up. There are some Necrons that regret the procedure but most are insane or are doing really not nice experiments on squishies.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/28 01:05:59


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Gert wrote:
Having played Necrons in 5th when that new Codex came out, that doesn't really track with the book. Most Necrons were fine with the Biotransference but not with the C'tan using their meat bodies as food which they saw as just a bit rude. Imotehk very much doesn't want to reverse the procedure and most Necrons seem to be the same. Anrakyr the Traveller seems to just vibe, Trazyn uses his long life to be a general prat and giant nerd, Zandrehk and Obyron are awesome, Szeras likes cutting people up. There are some Necrons that regret the procedure but most are insane or are doing really not nice experiments on squishies.

I'll have to dig the 5th ed codex and reread it then. I could have sworn there was some passage about attempts to reverse bio-transference. Might have just been in reference to the Silent King.


Space Marine Supremacy @ 2021/07/28 02:37:03


Post by: Hecaton


 Hellebore wrote:
If we're diving down this rabbit hole, I'm a socialist-humanist agnostic-atheist anti-warite. But as I can separate fantasy from reality, I can entertain an idea without accepting it.

I can play make believe and pretend without buying into or ironically accepting the premise on which said make-believe is built. I have no problem consuming fantasy horror and fantasy war without it either reflecting my values or requiring an ironic hypocrisy of my values.

Many people wish to stare at a car accident as they go by, and it has nothing to do with wanting car accidents to happen or ironically accepting car accidents happen.


It's not an ironic hypocrisy of your values, per se, but enjoying the fethed-up antihumanist setting that 40k is needs a healthy dose of irony for any well-adjusted person.