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Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 19:31:14


Post by: Cj4594


Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 19:35:43


Post by: Rihgu


Meanwhile, everybody else I've seen is lamenting that they're broken in the opposite direction. Not having Assault weapons seems like a huge nerf, in most people's eyes. To that extent... one character that does 4 MWs on 6s to wound... doesn't seem super strong at all?


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 19:37:54


Post by: T800Necron


I suspect that dakka guns are assault.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 19:39:08


Post by: Gert


Weird how every single new Codex is OP and broken. Almost like stuff designed for the new edition of the game is good in that edition.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 19:39:55


Post by: Castozor


The character looks strong, rest of the Ork leaks/reveals seem decidedly meh to be honest. Only time will tell but I think Orks will be decent but not overbearing like really most of the 9th Codexes so far. Only Dark Eldar seem to be the outlier, maybe AdMech too. So I'm unsure why you think every new Codex brings something broken.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 19:41:00


Post by: G00fySmiley


Cj4594 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.


honestly the great white squigg seems like the best unit in the codex. but of note for the 4 mortals, its the squig's attacks rolls. if i recall correctly 3 rolls to hit, then rolls to wound and any roll of a 6 stops the attack sequence and does 4 mortals instead


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 19:43:05


Post by: Sasori


 G00fySmiley wrote:
Cj4594 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.


honestly the great white squigg seems like the best unit in the codex. but of note for the 4 mortals, its the squig's attacks rolls. if i recall correctly 3 rolls to hit, then rolls to wound and any roll of a 6 stops the attack sequence and does 4 mortals instead


Yep, it can only trigger for those 3 attacks.

Don't get me wrong, he's incredible, but it's not all of his attacks that can trigger it.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 19:43:17


Post by: ccs


Congrats, you've spotted part of the pattern.

It generally goes as follows:
1) release broken/op stuff.
2) let it ride for a bit to sell those models,
3) listen to the sobbing & bitching of armchair designers going on about how x ruins tourney events that most will never attend.
4) once sales have hit some selected #, nerf said broken/op units & blow smoke up everyones arse about something slipping through playtesting, unforseen interactions, blah blah blah.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 19:51:32


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Sasori wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
Cj4594 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.


honestly the great white squigg seems like the best unit in the codex. but of note for the 4 mortals, its the squig's attacks rolls. if i recall correctly 3 rolls to hit, then rolls to wound and any roll of a 6 stops the attack sequence and does 4 mortals instead


Yep, it can only trigger for those 3 attacks.

Don't get me wrong, he's incredible, but it's not all of his attacks that can trigger it.


yup and unless i am reading it wrogn its 4 mortals and the attack sequence for that bite end so in theory you could do more dmg by not rolling any 6's but just hitting and regular wounds if not saved. wording is a bti off though it might be that specific attack only not all 3 for that squig biting


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 20:25:18


Post by: Irkjoe


I think it's working as intended. The churn and burn crowd buy it because it's powerful and the hobbyists buy it because they like the look. Personally I buy stuff and start armies without even thinking about the rules so there's no such thing as a "broken" release for me.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 20:33:12


Post by: A.T.


Cj4594 wrote:
It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.
Forgeworld went through phases of that, which is one of the main reasons they were so maligned in the past (alongside some factions getting a hundred releases and others getting one if they were lucky). "Experimental rules" - aka valid for a couple of tournaments.

GW have traditionally been more escalation based, rolling back between editions is a newer thing for them.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 20:35:55


Post by: Daedalus81


ccs wrote:
Congrats, you've spotted part of the pattern.

It generally goes as follows:
1) release broken/op stuff.
2) let it ride for a bit to sell those models,
3) listen to the sobbing & bitching of armchair designers going on about how x ruins tourney events that most will never attend.
4) once sales have hit some selected #, nerf said broken/op units & blow smoke up everyones arse about something slipping through playtesting, unforseen interactions, blah blah blah.


Right! And we'll just cherry pick and ignore everything else as usual!


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 20:52:21


Post by: AnomanderRake


If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 20:59:55


Post by: Castozor


 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 21:08:28


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Castozor wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


Why not both?
We know malice from gw cue a certain eldar thingy..
We also know gw is incompetent quite often.
The bean counters malice is separate from the incompetence.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 21:16:50


Post by: a_typical_hero


Feels like a bait title, to be honest.

It can be demonstrated quite easily that newly released models have no guarantee to get OP or even just competitive rules.

People who think that have their opinion clouded by their gripes with GW.

So far the Ork player resonance seems to be that the book is a lot of nerf and little buffs. One good unit is not enough to justify the premise of this thread.

Let's wait and see? If they end up somewhere between Necrons / SM and Sisters, I'm happy.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 21:21:30


Post by: Dolnikan


Every codex GW ever managed to release was broken in some way, either strong or weak. Part of that is because balancing dozens of units and accompanying special rules and faction rules is practically impossible. But more importantly, they just don't try to make a tightly balanced tournament ruleset. They write rules for a beer and pretzels game to play with friends. And it's never been more than that and it will, in all likelihood, never will.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 22:19:48


Post by: Wyldhunt


It's a combination of things:

A.) There's definitely some codex creep happening at the moment, though that hasn't always been the case with new books. (Anyone remember the 7th edition ork and drukhari books?) The 9th edition books seem to have more raw power than the 8th edition books, so then you have to bear that nuance in mind. Is the new thing overpowered compared only to 8th edition stuff or compared to 9th edition stuff as well? If the former but not the latter, then the new thing is probably balanced against the oncoming environment.

B.) New and heavily revised units, especially if they aren't just slight variations on more established units, are just inherently easy to mess up. It's easy for new code to be buggy. It's easy for new cooking recipes to come out odd. It's easy for new rules to be too strong/weak. Eradicators were too good. The Toxicrene and Maleceptor were too bad.

C.) The playerbase tends to freak out about any new rules regardless of how powerful they actually are. Partly because the unit's selling points are apparent on paper. Partly because GW has been known to release OP things in the past (see points A and B). Partly because, frankly, people don't always know how to play against a new option. There have been plenty of times when a new unit comes out, I get my teeth kicked in a couple of times, and then I realize that I need to do X mid-game or possibly start valuing weapons that are good against the new unit more highly.

And it's generally a mix of all the above. Newkhari have some obviously broken things that were quickly FAQ'd to be more reasonable (see: Dark Techno Liquifiers),Some of their heavily revised stuff has been getting tweaked (see: Drazhar). But also their win rate (to my understanding) has been steadily dropping to a more reasonable level as people get used to them and as the meta comes to contain something other than marines and necrons.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 22:33:42


Post by: asdrubeal vect124


 Castozor wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


for personal curiousity, what new dark eldar model did we get?


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 22:35:00


Post by: Wyldhunt


 asdrubeal vect124 wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


for personal curiousity, what new dark eldar model did we get?

Lelith.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 22:36:07


Post by: asdrubeal vect124


Wyldhunt wrote:
 asdrubeal vect124 wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


for personal curiousity, what new dark eldar model did we get?

Lelith.


she got a re-work, we've always had Lelith as a model though...


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 22:39:28


Post by: Voss


 Gert wrote:
Weird how every single new Codex is OP and broken. Almost like stuff designed for the new edition of the game is good in that edition.


That isn't always true. Historically, I'm not even sure that's true on average.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 22:41:02


Post by: vipoid


 asdrubeal vect124 wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
 asdrubeal vect124 wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


for personal curiousity, what new dark eldar model did we get?

Lelith.


she got a re-work, we've always had Lelith as a model though...


If you're talking about models for new DE units (not just resculpts) then you'll be looking back 11 years to find one.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 22:42:39


Post by: asdrubeal vect124


 vipoid wrote:
 asdrubeal vect124 wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
 asdrubeal vect124 wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


for personal curiousity, what new dark eldar model did we get?

Lelith.


she got a re-work, we've always had Lelith as a model though...


If you're talking about models for new DE units (not just resculpts) then you'll be looking back 11 years to find one.


yeah i believe it, we're not GW's favored son Spesh MAhrens XD


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/19 22:49:29


Post by: BrianDavion


Cj4594 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.


except every new mini release so far this edition has been meh. That said GW seems to be dedicated to making strong CODICES



^ this seems to be the mentality of 9th edition


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 00:42:40


Post by: Jarms48


Rihgu wrote:
Meanwhile, everybody else I've seen is lamenting that they're broken in the opposite direction. Not having Assault weapons seems like a huge nerf, in most people's eyes. To that extent... one character that does 4 MWs on 6s to wound... doesn't seem super strong at all?


6 attacks (actually 7 thanks to +1 from their ability) at WS2+, S7, AP-2, Damage 3. Then an additional bonus 3 attacks at WS2+, S7. AP-3, Damage 3. Then there's the bonus ability for 4 mortals on 6's.

The kicker? It's 170 points, and this is before factoring any kind of detachment abilities, faction abilities, psychic powers, or any other buffing abilities.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 01:26:39


Post by: Stormonu


GW seems to fail to realize that folks will laser-in on that stuff that works, generally make the stuff that works into "too good."

But for every item that comes up needing a good nerfing, five to ten times that stuff isn't up to snuff. Unfortunately, GW tends to take the nerfhammer to it all, good or bad.

And also a lot of times people get caught off guard by a new ability and/or unit, but solutions are found to a good number of those initial shockers.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 02:24:55


Post by: Arbitrator


 Gert wrote:
Weird how every single new Codex is OP and broken. Almost like stuff designed for the new edition of the game is good in that edition.

Codex creep has never been this 'consistent' before though. Yes, there were many cases of it, but not the next codex after the other in almost all cases being so brazenly top of the curve.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 02:27:08


Post by: Daedalus81


Jarms48 wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Meanwhile, everybody else I've seen is lamenting that they're broken in the opposite direction. Not having Assault weapons seems like a huge nerf, in most people's eyes. To that extent... one character that does 4 MWs on 6s to wound... doesn't seem super strong at all?


6 attacks (actually 7 thanks to +1 from their ability) at WS2+, S7, AP-2, Damage 3. Then an additional bonus 3 attacks at WS2+, S7. AP-3, Damage 3. Then there's the bonus ability for 4 mortals on 6's.

The kicker? It's 170 points, and this is before factoring any kind of detachment abilities, faction abilities, psychic powers, or any other buffing abilities.


Drazhar gets effectively 10 attacks at S6 AP3/4 D3 or 20 S5 AP3/4 D2 with WS2,2+/4++, can grant fight last with a LD check, and +1 to wound - that's 135. DE were 58% this past weekend.

Morvenn Vahl is strong, but doesn't seem to be breaking down the walls.

To me there looks to be two or three truly problematic units in the game right now and that's about it. This guy is scary, but guess what? He's so much overkill so you can feed him trash and it just doesn't matter how many bonus MW het gets.

And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...



Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 03:19:18


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...


Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 03:50:33


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...


Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?


T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points



Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 04:18:41


Post by: Seabass


Drukhari's win rate is falling, Marines seem to be hoving at the midline, death guard is hovering at the midline, Dark angels are there too. It looks like Ad Mech may be the top spot, but I think small changes to Lucius and the 4+ shooting strat will likely fix that (though at the most recent event on 40k stats, a mars list took second, so that's cool).

I don't think the situation is as doom and gloom as people make it out to be. And honestly, the biggest offenders arent the entire codex, with each situation, its one or two entries (be them strats or data sheets) that seem to be a bit above the curve.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 04:25:36


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...


Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?


T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points


All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 05:22:57


Post by: BrianDavion


Seabass wrote:
Drukhari's win rate is falling, Marines seem to be hoving at the midline, death guard is hovering at the midline, Dark angels are there too. It looks like Ad Mech may be the top spot, but I think small changes to Lucius and the 4+ shooting strat will likely fix that (though at the most recent event on 40k stats, a mars list took second, so that's cool).

I don't think the situation is as doom and gloom as people make it out to be. And honestly, the biggest offenders arent the entire codex, with each situation, its one or two entries (be them strats or data sheets) that seem to be a bit above the curve.


and it;s not like EVERY new codex is more powerful then the last, otherwise the current top of the Meta would be Sisters of Battle


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 05:27:19


Post by: Wyldhunt


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...


Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?


T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points


All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

What am I missing? That's a lot of neat abilities, but it also looks pretty comparable to a Leman Russ defensively before you factor in invulns. (Where is that 4++ coming from?) And a lot of those tricks seem to be short-ranged meaning you probably get at least one or two turns to kill it before it can bring everything to bear.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 05:56:53


Post by: Gadzilla666


Wyldhunt wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...


Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?


T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points


All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

What am I missing? That's a lot of neat abilities, but it also looks pretty comparable to a Leman Russ defensively before you factor in invulns. (Where is that 4++ coming from?) And a lot of those tricks seem to be short-ranged meaning you probably get at least one or two turns to kill it before it can bring everything to bear.

Well, it's a LOT for 190 PPM. But if it can't get that 4++ it will die fairly easily.

Hey Daed! Where's the 4++ coming from? The Badmoons warlord trait? Can a Beastsnagga unit have that?


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 06:18:52


Post by: yukishiro1


Remember how people were talking about a "Golden Age of 40k" right before the DE release?

...yeah, nobody's saying that any more. Kinda says it all.

But let's not distract attention with conspiracy theories. The problem is they release unbalanced junk, speculating about their motives - i.e. whether it's incompetence or malice - is only useful for figuring out how to address the problem. And unless GW tells us, we'll probably never know, so it's not really helpful at all.

Unless people hold GW to a higher standard, nothing's going to change. They're certainly not going to hold themselves to that higher standard themselves, without the community holding their feet to the fire.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 06:23:15


Post by: Wyldhunt


Wait, was someone calling 9th edition prior to Drukhari a Golden Age for the game? None of my non-loyalist marine armies felt that way.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 06:24:44


Post by: CEO Kasen


Wyldhunt wrote:
Wait, was someone calling 9th edition prior to Drukhari a Golden Age for the game? None of my non-loyalist marine armies felt that way.


Someone on Dakka asked if we were having a golden age of 40K a while back. Lemme check...

Here it is, from April 8th; it's because it was the topic of a podcast that had gone out around that time.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/797464.page


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 06:45:22


Post by: Umbros


In fairness, the 9th ed codexes (especially ignoring Drukhari and Ad Mech) were pretty good for internal balance and feel pretty solid against each other. A variety of builds and healthy competition (disregarding the older codexes).

Ad Mech and Drukhari are unacceptable, clearly.

People jump to conclusions based on data sheets. How often are combat units problematic? Wait and see...


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 06:52:49


Post by: Blackie


I disagree with the OP. The only real broken release in this edition was the Drukhari codex and that was because people refused to adjust their lists to counter it and a couple of unintentional broken combos. Now that people finally coped with the fact that tailoring against something that isn't SM is not a sin and those broken combos have been FAQed not even that codex is broken anymore. Anything else, including the last releases (Mech and Sororitas) are definitely not broken. Orks have not been released yet but 75% of the rules have been leaked and they look quite bad on paper. Like worse than using the 8th codex.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 07:23:32


Post by: a_typical_hero


yukishiro1 wrote:
Remember how people were talking about a "Golden Age of 40k" right before the DE release?

...yeah, nobody's saying that any more. Kinda says it all.
Honestly without the intention to be or sound catty, I'm having the most fun since 4th edition and my local scene is flourishing. Just started a 13 player Crusade campaign this week and (the initial) player attention for it is higher than for regular games even.

With all the flaws here and there, it is a Golden Age for my local scene, after being basically dead for many years in the past.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 07:26:14


Post by: BrianDavion


a_typical_hero wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Remember how people were talking about a "Golden Age of 40k" right before the DE release?

...yeah, nobody's saying that any more. Kinda says it all.
Honestly without the intention to be or sound catty, I'm having the most fun since 4th edition and my local scene is flourishing. Just started a 13 player Crusade campaign this week and (the initial) player attention for it is higher than for regular games even.

With all the flaws here and there, it is a Golden Age for my local scene, after being basically dead for many years in the past.


Also the golden age refers to new blood and players into the game, which is proably true.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 07:42:20


Post by: Jidmah


On Mozorg, people are seriously overreacting to him. Almost all of the people whining about him haven't even read his rules properly.
- Defense wise he is T7, 3+/4++ -1 damage, 9 wounds, character, CAVALRY CHARACTER. Transfungus does nothing unless you have S7 and +1 to wound or a poison weapon that always wounds on 2+/3+
- Movement 10", 'ere we go
- He gets 3 Attacks at WS 1+ S7 AP-3 3 dmg and if any of those roll a wound roll of six, you deal 4 MW instead of regular damage. This is one extra MW over the vanilla Warboss on Squigosaur, by the way.
- He gets another 6+1 attacks at WS 1+ S7 AP-2 3 dmg, once again one more attack than a vanilla warboss
- He gets a Assault d3 S6 Ap-1 d3 dmg blast gun with regular ork BS 5+
- He is a WARBOSS, so you can't have another one in your detachment. He is also locked into the snakebites warlord trait which is getting back up on a 4+ with d3 wounds remaining.
- He is not a Specialist Lad, so you cannot have him in other clan's detachments.
- He cannot have relics because he is a named characters

So yes, it's a good character in an otherwise fairly meh clan. OP though? Not by a long run, there are much more powerful combatants bouncing around that you can't just splat by charging them with a decent melee unit.

On the kill rig - most up the uproar comes from the assumption that it can pick relics and warlord traits freely, something we really don't know anything about yet. A single line exempting it from relics and traits in the codex or FAQ and it drops down to the level of a battlewagon with deff rolla and zagzap kustom job. Never hear of that? Yeah, though so. Something all the people crying "but muh landraider" keep forgetting is that these ork vehicles always come with WS5+, so that silly harpoon combo for auto-killing fliers will only hit once in three turns and that lobba will generate a single hit on average.
Oh, and it doesn't have the squig keyword, for those trying to combo of that.
Last but not least, open topped on the rigs is probably just for consistency. There are no beastsnagga infantry units with good ranged weapons.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 08:04:04


Post by: p5freak


Mozrog is broken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkWP0UJz_4



Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 08:23:15


Post by: FrozenDwarf


 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.


And that further states that GW is not a games company, it is a hobby company, games is a bi product. physical codex or rulebook is not worth the paper it is printed on as the text becomes invalid after 1-2 weeks. when you buy a physical book, you expect the text to be valid as written for minimum 6 months after release, idealy up to a year.

As a hobby company they do amazing stuff, overpriced but i guess nothing can be done about that when product popularity do not drop.
If one is after a solid game, avoid current GW.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 08:24:16


Post by: BrianDavion


 FrozenDwarf wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.


And that further states that GW is not a games company, it is a hobby company, games is a bi product. physical codex or rulebook is not worth the paper it is printed on as the text becomes invalid after 1-2 weeks. when you buy a physical book, you expect the text to be valid as written for minimum 6 months after release, idealy up to a year.

As a hobby company they do amazing stuff, overpriced but i guess nothing can be done about that when product popularity do not drop.
If one is after a solid game, avoid current GW.


so should GW not issue FAQs for errors in their book then just so they can claim they're "completely valid"?



Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 08:39:33


Post by: Table


The problem is and has always been how GW handles codex production. To my knowledge codex still have varied writers. And here is where the trouble lies.

The design team needs to sit down and design all of the codex in succession. The same people every book.

That would not solve the issue in total, but it would go a long way to cutting out the obligatory overpowered-underpowered codex releases.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 08:40:09


Post by: Jidmah




That guy is a friggin' idiot and should be banned from ever talking about orks again.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 09:05:41


Post by: Twilight Pathways




I like how he spits out things like "oh a 3+ save" and "and of course he's a character so can't even be targeted" with disgust. Such a clickbait disingenuous take


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 09:10:38


Post by: Umbros




Don't give these idiots free coverage!



Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 09:30:59


Post by: Fergie0044


Gee, anyone remember when Dark Angels were broken? Or Mortarian would be an unkillable monster warping the entire meta? These knee jerk reactions never change, lol.

Out of all the new 9th edition codex we've seen 2 that could truly be called broken; DE and AM. And 1 that is a bit behind the pack (poor necrons, suffering the usual first codex in an edition treatment).

I'm not trying to defend GW, goodness knows they make stupid mistakes and release garbage rules all the time, but the title of this thread is way over the top.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 11:52:47


Post by: the_scotsman


Rihgu wrote:
Meanwhile, everybody else I've seen is lamenting that they're broken in the opposite direction. Not having Assault weapons seems like a huge nerf, in most people's eyes. To that extent... one character that does 4 MWs on 6s to wound... doesn't seem super strong at all?


Also keeping in mind the context of the ability is: All this does is make it so you dont get a save vs an AP-2 or AP-3 damage Flat 3 attack.

People are just looking at '4 mortal wounds' and losing their mind without actually realizing what the ability does. it's not like a random bonus MWs.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 12:23:46


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...


Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?


T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points


All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

What am I missing? That's a lot of neat abilities, but it also looks pretty comparable to a Leman Russ defensively before you factor in invulns. (Where is that 4++ coming from?) And a lot of those tricks seem to be short-ranged meaning you probably get at least one or two turns to kill it before it can bring everything to bear.

Well, it's a LOT for 190 PPM. But if it can't get that 4++ it will die fairly easily.

Hey Daed! Where's the 4++ coming from? The Badmoons warlord trait? Can a Beastsnagga unit have that?


From a relic, BUT the app doesn't indicate he can't take it where the book might.

The usual WS3 BS5. Ranges are 12/24/48.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 12:52:21


Post by: a_typical_hero


That was hard to listen to, not going to lie. Even if we are looking at a very competitive choice here, everything about the video from it's thumbnail, to the script and the way he is presenting it is super annoying and clickbaity exaggeration.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 12:57:38


Post by: Daedalus81


 Fergie0044 wrote:
Gee, anyone remember when Dark Angels were broken? Or Mortarian would be an unkillable monster warping the entire meta? These knee jerk reactions never change, lol.

Out of all the new 9th edition codex we've seen 2 that could truly be called broken; DE and AM. And 1 that is a bit behind the pack (poor necrons, suffering the usual first codex in an edition treatment).

I'm not trying to defend GW, goodness knows they make stupid mistakes and release garbage rules all the time, but the title of this thread is way over the top.


Crickets on Sisters as well ( outside Morvenn, but one model does not an army make....unless it's a titan...or you only took one model... )


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 13:17:29


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...


Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?


T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points


All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

What am I missing? That's a lot of neat abilities, but it also looks pretty comparable to a Leman Russ defensively before you factor in invulns. (Where is that 4++ coming from?) And a lot of those tricks seem to be short-ranged meaning you probably get at least one or two turns to kill it before it can bring everything to bear.

Well, it's a LOT for 190 PPM. But if it can't get that 4++ it will die fairly easily.

Hey Daed! Where's the 4++ coming from? The Badmoons warlord trait? Can a Beastsnagga unit have that?


From a relic, BUT the app doesn't indicate he can't take it where the book might.

The usual WS3 BS5. Ranges are 12/24/48.

Thanks Daed. So not that impressive if it can't get that 4++. BUT, it's still a lot for 190 PPM when compared to similar units. That's the same price as a Leman Russ with heavy bolter sponsons, but with a 6++, and 4 more wounds. Doesn't mean it's undercosted, but it could mean some of those similar units are overcosted. Especially compared to similar units that cost more points and CP. But that doesn't make it broken.

The only thing impressive about the White Squig dude is that he can get back up on a 4+. My clawlord averages more damage, and 10 Warp Talons with Prey On the Weak can shred him. So no "broken" there either.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 13:18:43


Post by: Selfcontrol


Cj4594 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.


Yeah, like the new DG character.

Or the SoB Castigator and Paragon Warsuits.

Or the SM Gladiator or new Fast Attack vehicles (I don't remember their names).

Or the new DE Wyches (/s ).

Or the recently released AD Mech Vanguards, Rangers and Ironstriders (/s ).

In case you didn't understand, I'm being sarcastic.

You are a buffoon.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 13:18:56


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


From someone who doesn’t actively play at the moment, here are my thoughts.

So far, the 9th Ed Codexes seem to be pretty decent. Not just in terms of subjective power levels between the various forces, but none really limiting unit selection to the same few spammed.

This is really quite good for the game. Sure it sucks if you’re lumbered with an 8th Ed Codex, but the ongoing trend suggests you’ll get your time in the sun in due course.

Specifically, people being able to make decent armies out of relatively randomly selected units is very good for the game, as it encourages a wider variety of army builds and play styles to encounter. The greater that variety, the ever harder it becomes to simple come up with The Best List Evarr.

Example? 7th Ed Imperial Knights. Most forces struggled against them, because nobody else could field an army of super heavies, let alone ones which could smash your face in with shooting and close combat.

They were one of the hardest armies to counter, and for that reason, one of the worst armies in the game. Unless you tooled up specifically for their threat, you struggled.

Similarly, my pet peeve Craftworld Eldar. Noted for very specific rock hard lists, and everything else in their codex being awful. Yes, the good lists were seemingly the bane of tournaments, but it was still a crap Codex because it’s internal design was so limiting. The real kick in the teeth for everyone is that each subsequent Codex completely changed which units were actually worth taking. CWE players suffered from that, as if a player wanted to remain competitive, it was pretty much Go And Buy A Whole New Army.

Other examples include unforeseen and well beardy combos, such as the Loyal 32 and Smash Captains, which exploited cross-codex army design, and was fairly quickly squelched by errata.

But in 9th Ed? So far those problems seem to be going away. Yes there will always be some builds considered better than others, especially for fans of serious number crunching. But the gap between Best and Average does seem to be narrowing.

As for Orks? Right now, they’re an unknown quantity, and it’s all based purely on theory hammer - at least until jammy sods like me get their Beast Snaggas on Saturday and can start contrasting and comparing. Even then, the truth won’t out until a decent numbers of games have been played globally, and that’s going to take a few weeks at least to get appreciable reports.

Finally, there is almost always a “the latest Codex is the most broken” type reactions when a new Codex lands. This can be a mix of people just not knowing the rules, or the Codex offering new options people aren’t used to facing, an adapting tactics takes a bit of trial and error.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 13:19:09


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


I'm curious if Sisters end up doing better over time, kind of like how Dark Angels did. There's a lot of stuff in that book and the tricks are not on the surface.

The DE and AM books are the true indictments on 9e so far. Yeah, the DE win rate has fallen. But I pretty adamantly believe it's not because DE is less scary, but because Admech have sucked all the air out of the room. You can't really have 2 pre-nerf IH win rate factions out there at one time, one has to cannibalize the other. It's not like the situation can't be salvaged, but the only non-stupid answer is for the next several codices to be pre-DE power level, and for (additional) nerfs for DE and AM.

ETA: I have no opinion on if Orks are more like Sisters, or more like AM. I haven't paid enough attention. I think on the surface, they aren't as outrageous as the worst offenders (as others have pointed out, that 4 MW thing isn't that big of a deal in all practicality.)


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 13:22:05


Post by: the_scotsman


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...


Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?


T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points


All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

What am I missing? That's a lot of neat abilities, but it also looks pretty comparable to a Leman Russ defensively before you factor in invulns. (Where is that 4++ coming from?) And a lot of those tricks seem to be short-ranged meaning you probably get at least one or two turns to kill it before it can bring everything to bear.

Well, it's a LOT for 190 PPM. But if it can't get that 4++ it will die fairly easily.

Hey Daed! Where's the 4++ coming from? The Badmoons warlord trait? Can a Beastsnagga unit have that?


From a relic, BUT the app doesn't indicate he can't take it where the book might.

The usual WS3 BS5. Ranges are 12/24/48.

Thanks Daed. So not that impressive if it can't get that 4++. BUT, it's still a lot for 190 PPM when compared to similar units. That's the same price as a Leman Russ with heavy bolter sponsons, but with a 6++, and 4 more wounds. Doesn't mean it's undercosted, but it could mean some of those similar units are overcosted. Especially compared to similar units that cost more points and CP. But that doesn't make it broken.

The only thing impressive about the White Squig dude is that he can get back up on a 4+. My clawlord averages more damage, and 10 Warp Talons with Prey On the Weak can shred him. So no "broken" there either.


Or, one could note that the kill rig deals very little damage at any kind of range, moves 10" without fly and a gigantic base, and in melee honestly doesn't do all that much damage - about 7 unsaved wounds on average vs a T7 3+ target.



Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 13:54:09


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Thanks Daed. So not that impressive if it can't get that 4++. BUT, it's still a lot for 190 PPM when compared to similar units. That's the same price as a Leman Russ with heavy bolter sponsons, but with a 6++, and 4 more wounds. Doesn't mean it's undercosted, but it could mean some of those similar units are overcosted. Especially compared to similar units that cost more points and CP. But that doesn't make it broken.


For sure - it totally hinges on relic and trait availability.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 14:29:58


Post by: bullyboy


Watched that cringe video and thought, it's actually a cool, decent character..not broken though, but good.
The MW from the bite is nasty, but it won't happen very often, but that time you get 2-3 6s to wound....something's gonna get chomped! Just gotta shrug that one off.I mean, it's a land shark basically.

That guy was an idiot though, thank god I've not encountered his videos before.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 14:34:40


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Whilst I dont play and skim read to keep up to date I think its 'combo-creep', as GW seemingly can't spot simple stuff like the Dark Tech / Flamers let alone nested auras, doctrines and stratagems (which is as I understand it the cornerstone of the Admech being the new hotness)

I'm also of the mind that for all the snark I throw at the dubs they aren't doing this out of any lack of thinking, its on purpose and will drag on until 10e reset as once everyones broken nobody is (as we all enjoyed battle companies and og ynnari right...)


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 14:48:28


Post by: SemperMortis


 bullyboy wrote:
Watched that cringe video and thought, it's actually a cool, decent character..not broken though, but good.
The MW from the bite is nasty, but it won't happen very often, but that time you get 2-3 6s to wound....something's gonna get chomped! Just gotta shrug that one off.I mean, it's a land shark basically.

That guy was an idiot though, thank god I've not encountered his videos before.


You have to remember the Anti-Ork mindset so many people have, including some ork players. Orkz aren't allowed to have good things and/or competitive things.

The Loota bomb of 8th was competitive, absolutely top tier but not even Eradicator levels of broken. It required not 1, not 2, not 3 but a grand total of 7CP turn 1 and 6CP a turn after that to function and it also required 180pts of Grot shields to die for it at a minimum. What did you get out of that? on average about 100 S7 shots. Sounds amazing, until you remember it was BS5 so even with the extra dakka it worked out to 44-45 hits, against a SM that was 30ish wounds and 15 dead Marines. All for the low low price of about 1/3rd of your army and ALL your CP.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 15:14:24


Post by: Dudeface


SemperMortis wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Watched that cringe video and thought, it's actually a cool, decent character..not broken though, but good.
The MW from the bite is nasty, but it won't happen very often, but that time you get 2-3 6s to wound....something's gonna get chomped! Just gotta shrug that one off.I mean, it's a land shark basically.

That guy was an idiot though, thank god I've not encountered his videos before.


You have to remember the Anti-Ork mindset so many people have, including some ork players. Orkz aren't allowed to have good things and/or competitive things.

The Loota bomb of 8th was competitive, absolutely top tier but not even Eradicator levels of broken. It required not 1, not 2, not 3 but a grand total of 7CP turn 1 and 6CP a turn after that to function and it also required 180pts of Grot shields to die for it at a minimum. What did you get out of that? on average about 100 S7 shots. Sounds amazing, until you remember it was BS5 so even with the extra dakka it worked out to 44-45 hits, against a SM that was 30ish wounds and 15 dead Marines. All for the low low price of about 1/3rd of your army and ALL your CP.


I've never seen anyone have an anti-ork mindset, would love to see some examples though? The only common complaints people tend to show are the absurd names they can't remember (see buggies) and the issues historically with slow play (120+ boy lists).


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 15:30:08


Post by: the_scotsman


Yeah, Orks are basically universally the most beloved faction for people to play against. And it's not because they always lose. I've had opponents laugh incredibly hard when I dunk on something with a SAG or a warboss goes on a rampage.

People love Orks because they're silly looking, and have comparatively few rules that typically feel inherently 'unfair' - you generally get to use the rules you paid for against orks, and when you don't it's got some amusing explanation like 'I get a 6+ invulnerable because my gak's so ramshackle that you might hit something that wasn't important - oh look, a 6! nice meltagun, goober, that half of my tank wasn't even important!"


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 15:34:53


Post by: G00fySmiley


 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, Orks are basically universally the most beloved faction for people to play against. And it's not because they always lose. I've had opponents laugh incredibly hard when I dunk on something with a SAG or a warboss goes on a rampage.

People love Orks because they're silly looking, and have comparatively few rules that typically feel inherently 'unfair' - you generally get to use the rules you paid for against orks, and when you don't it's got some amusing explanation like 'I get a 6+ invulnerable because my gak's so ramshackle that you might hit something that wasn't important - oh look, a 6! nice meltagun, goober, that half of my tank wasn't even important!"


yea i have had them laugh about things like... of the 6 damage from a lascannon hit the engine, but that engine was just the loud one the one driving the wheels is under the bed". Also we have so much stuff on the board to destroy, and we know its all made of tissue paper so don't get upset when we lose a model worth 1/5 the points on the board because no non war of lord we have costs that much.

I am not a fan of the vect like stuff where you are denying the other army being able to do something.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 15:37:46


Post by: SemperMortis


Dudeface wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Watched that cringe video and thought, it's actually a cool, decent character..not broken though, but good.
The MW from the bite is nasty, but it won't happen very often, but that time you get 2-3 6s to wound....something's gonna get chomped! Just gotta shrug that one off.I mean, it's a land shark basically.

That guy was an idiot though, thank god I've not encountered his videos before.


You have to remember the Anti-Ork mindset so many people have, including some ork players. Orkz aren't allowed to have good things and/or competitive things.

The Loota bomb of 8th was competitive, absolutely top tier but not even Eradicator levels of broken. It required not 1, not 2, not 3 but a grand total of 7CP turn 1 and 6CP a turn after that to function and it also required 180pts of Grot shields to die for it at a minimum. What did you get out of that? on average about 100 S7 shots. Sounds amazing, until you remember it was BS5 so even with the extra dakka it worked out to 44-45 hits, against a SM that was 30ish wounds and 15 dead Marines. All for the low low price of about 1/3rd of your army and ALL your CP.


I've never seen anyone have an anti-ork mindset, would love to see some examples though? The only common complaints people tend to show are the absurd names they can't remember (see buggies) and the issues historically with slow play (120+ boy lists).


LMAO, Xenos complained about orkz being too powerful in 8th among many others

I have seen a load of players on this very forum complain that their units need to be buffed because they can't kill X amount of boyz in a turn. Christ, how many Marine players pissed and moaned after Aggressors went from killing an entire unit of boyz in 1 turn to needing 2. The complaints about Loota bomb and Ghaz being OP were hilarious as well.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 15:40:58


Post by: DominayTrix


Dudeface wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Watched that cringe video and thought, it's actually a cool, decent character..not broken though, but good.
The MW from the bite is nasty, but it won't happen very often, but that time you get 2-3 6s to wound....something's gonna get chomped! Just gotta shrug that one off.I mean, it's a land shark basically.

That guy was an idiot though, thank god I've not encountered his videos before.


You have to remember the Anti-Ork mindset so many people have, including some ork players. Orkz aren't allowed to have good things and/or competitive things.

The Loota bomb of 8th was competitive, absolutely top tier but not even Eradicator levels of broken. It required not 1, not 2, not 3 but a grand total of 7CP turn 1 and 6CP a turn after that to function and it also required 180pts of Grot shields to die for it at a minimum. What did you get out of that? on average about 100 S7 shots. Sounds amazing, until you remember it was BS5 so even with the extra dakka it worked out to 44-45 hits, against a SM that was 30ish wounds and 15 dead Marines. All for the low low price of about 1/3rd of your army and ALL your CP.


I've never seen anyone have an anti-ork mindset, would love to see some examples though? The only common complaints people tend to show are the absurd names they can't remember (see buggies) and the issues historically with slow play (120+ boy lists).

Orks MUST have some ran-dumb abilities that may or may not hurt themselves. Just like Tau cannot ever ever EVER have anything decent in melee, remotely psychic, or hits on 3+ without some kind of overcosted drawback. It's a bit frustrating when your shooting army can't hit anything or your hoard blows itself up and dies. Chaos gets a guest mention since they have a few variable/randumb units. It's a double edged sword, because those kinds of units ARE fun in a narrative mindset, but equally frustrating from a competitive mindset.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 15:48:00


Post by: SemperMortis


Oooo! I forgot, the wonderful SAG. People used to complain about that when it used to kill its operator as often as its target, and in 8th when we got our SSAG, WOW! The salt flowed freely. So much so that when 9th got released GW made it a point to not only nerf the SAG, but to beat it into the ground and than place concrete over its still twitching corpse.

Don't worry though, they have since calmed down a bit and the SAG is now just as bad as it used to be pre-8th. You can now pay 15pts on top of its already over priced base cost to move it from Heavy D6 to Heavy 2D3. LMAO!


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 15:55:49


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:
Oooo! I forgot, the wonderful SAG. People used to complain about that when it used to kill its operator as often as its target, and in 8th when we got our SSAG, WOW! The salt flowed freely. So much so that when 9th got released GW made it a point to not only nerf the SAG, but to beat it into the ground and than place concrete over its still twitching corpse.

Don't worry though, they have since calmed down a bit and the SAG is now just as bad as it used to be pre-8th. You can now pay 15pts on top of its already over priced base cost to move it from Heavy D6 to Heavy 2D3. LMAO!


I would absolutely spend 15 points to never had to use CP on a reroll for shots.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 16:43:35


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Oooo! I forgot, the wonderful SAG. People used to complain about that when it used to kill its operator as often as its target, and in 8th when we got our SSAG, WOW! The salt flowed freely. So much so that when 9th got released GW made it a point to not only nerf the SAG, but to beat it into the ground and than place concrete over its still twitching corpse.

Don't worry though, they have since calmed down a bit and the SAG is now just as bad as it used to be pre-8th. You can now pay 15pts on top of its already over priced base cost to move it from Heavy D6 to Heavy 2D3. LMAO!


I would absolutely spend 15 points to never had to use CP on a reroll for shots.


Well, that's just you then, and also you can't do that anyway

the SAG has always been randumb but at least before it was kind of fun. it's just dull now - 110pts for 1d6 shots, 2d6 random strength, d6 damage....at least now, AFAIK, you roll for its strength when you select it to shoot with (BEFORE you select a target...thank god...) and its at least BS4+ instead of BS5+.

IDK I suspect youd pretty much always be better off with almost any other HQ option as your obligatory 'not a WARBOSS' hq. Even the nerfed KFF. I mean it's always going to be a weirdboy, I assume, there's always going to be SOMETHING you're gonna want to Fists of Gork or Warpath.

He's basically a shittier Mek Gun for more than double the cost.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 18:29:07


Post by: Jidmah


Just for your information, leaks confirmed that the kil rig can't take relics unless they can specifically be taken by VEHICLES. Which isn't a whole lot of them, specifically none of the ones that people were losing their mind about.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 18:40:44


Post by: Daedalus81


 Jidmah wrote:
Just for your information, leaks confirmed that the kil rig can't take relics unless they can specifically be taken by VEHICLES. Which isn't a whole lot of them, specifically none of the ones that people were losing their mind about.


That's good to hear. Shows how poor a job the app is doing at presenting good info.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 18:44:04


Post by: Sim-Life


I'll reserve judgement on the "every release is broken" till we see the Nids book. Almost every Nid release since 5th has been mid-low tier at release.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 18:47:49


Post by: Daedalus81


 the_scotsman wrote:

Well, that's just you then, and also you can't do that anyway

the SAG has always been randumb but at least before it was kind of fun. it's just dull now - 110pts for 1d6 shots, 2d6 random strength, d6 damage....at least now, AFAIK, you roll for its strength when you select it to shoot with (BEFORE you select a target...thank god...) and its at least BS4+ instead of BS5+.

IDK I suspect youd pretty much always be better off with almost any other HQ option as your obligatory 'not a WARBOSS' hq. Even the nerfed KFF. I mean it's always going to be a weirdboy, I assume, there's always going to be SOMETHING you're gonna want to Fists of Gork or Warpath.

He's basically a shittier Mek Gun for more than double the cost.


Confused - can't do what?

In any case you have to consider the other benefits of the SAG - character protection and repairs. Rolling the strength before targeting is a big deal for that gun.

With an average 4 S7 AP5 DD6 is pretty equivalent to a couple Smasha MGs for 90, but just easier to protect. If you roll gak strength, well, that's just being an Ork.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 18:59:54


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


 Sim-Life wrote:
I'll reserve judgement on the "every release is broken" till we see the Nids book. Almost every Nid release since 5th has been mid-low tier at release.

GW hates nids - they always get a weak book. Their PA release was Laughable.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 19:15:38


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Sim-Life wrote:
I'll reserve judgement on the "every release is broken" till we see the Nids book. Almost every Nid release since 5th has been mid-low tier at release.


I hope not, i am putting a lot of time and effort into a new army of them. last night built 18 more warriors and 4 pyrovores to sub assemblies to paint


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 19:35:38


Post by: Thadin


Nids will get one unit/loadout type that rocks the meta, before GW nerfs it.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 19:50:20


Post by: Sim-Life


 Thadin wrote:
Nids will get one unit/loadout type that rocks the meta, before GW nerfs it.


Can't wait for the toxicrene spam meta.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 20:34:38


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Sim-Life wrote:
 Thadin wrote:
Nids will get one unit/loadout type that rocks the meta, before GW nerfs it.


Can't wait for the toxicrene spam meta.


Unironically, I'm about it. I have 3 of every turd Nids MC. Of course, if they ever become on-meta I'll probably be too hip to actually run them. If I'm spamming the great stuff, I can't whine about always losing.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 21:18:26


Post by: Gadzilla666


 the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...


Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?


T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points


All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

What am I missing? That's a lot of neat abilities, but it also looks pretty comparable to a Leman Russ defensively before you factor in invulns. (Where is that 4++ coming from?) And a lot of those tricks seem to be short-ranged meaning you probably get at least one or two turns to kill it before it can bring everything to bear.

Well, it's a LOT for 190 PPM. But if it can't get that 4++ it will die fairly easily.

Hey Daed! Where's the 4++ coming from? The Badmoons warlord trait? Can a Beastsnagga unit have that?


From a relic, BUT the app doesn't indicate he can't take it where the book might.

The usual WS3 BS5. Ranges are 12/24/48.

Thanks Daed. So not that impressive if it can't get that 4++. BUT, it's still a lot for 190 PPM when compared to similar units. That's the same price as a Leman Russ with heavy bolter sponsons, but with a 6++, and 4 more wounds. Doesn't mean it's undercosted, but it could mean some of those similar units are overcosted. Especially compared to similar units that cost more points and CP. But that doesn't make it broken.

The only thing impressive about the White Squig dude is that he can get back up on a 4+. My clawlord averages more damage, and 10 Warp Talons with Prey On the Weak can shred him. So no "broken" there either.


Or, one could note that the kill rig deals very little damage at any kind of range, moves 10" without fly and a gigantic base, and in melee honestly doesn't do all that much damage - about 7 unsaved wounds on average vs a T7 3+ target.


Yup, and now that we know that it can't get that 4++ we know it'll get wiped off the board by multi-meltas just like almost every other vehicle in the game. Again, nothing "OP Broken" here.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 21:20:53


Post by: the_scotsman


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...


Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?


T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points


All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

What am I missing? That's a lot of neat abilities, but it also looks pretty comparable to a Leman Russ defensively before you factor in invulns. (Where is that 4++ coming from?) And a lot of those tricks seem to be short-ranged meaning you probably get at least one or two turns to kill it before it can bring everything to bear.

Well, it's a LOT for 190 PPM. But if it can't get that 4++ it will die fairly easily.

Hey Daed! Where's the 4++ coming from? The Badmoons warlord trait? Can a Beastsnagga unit have that?


From a relic, BUT the app doesn't indicate he can't take it where the book might.

The usual WS3 BS5. Ranges are 12/24/48.

Thanks Daed. So not that impressive if it can't get that 4++. BUT, it's still a lot for 190 PPM when compared to similar units. That's the same price as a Leman Russ with heavy bolter sponsons, but with a 6++, and 4 more wounds. Doesn't mean it's undercosted, but it could mean some of those similar units are overcosted. Especially compared to similar units that cost more points and CP. But that doesn't make it broken.

The only thing impressive about the White Squig dude is that he can get back up on a 4+. My clawlord averages more damage, and 10 Warp Talons with Prey On the Weak can shred him. So no "broken" there either.


Or, one could note that the kill rig deals very little damage at any kind of range, moves 10" without fly and a gigantic base, and in melee honestly doesn't do all that much damage - about 7 unsaved wounds on average vs a T7 3+ target.


Yup, and now that we know that it can't get that 4++ we know it'll get wiped off the board by multi-meltas just like almost every other vehicle in the game. Again, nothing "OP Broken" here.


*technically* thats from a warlord trait and we dont know it cant get that. But yeah. It'll just not get to do that, obviously. XD


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/20 21:30:41


Post by: Gadzilla666


 the_scotsman wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...


Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?


T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points


All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

What am I missing? That's a lot of neat abilities, but it also looks pretty comparable to a Leman Russ defensively before you factor in invulns. (Where is that 4++ coming from?) And a lot of those tricks seem to be short-ranged meaning you probably get at least one or two turns to kill it before it can bring everything to bear.

Well, it's a LOT for 190 PPM. But if it can't get that 4++ it will die fairly easily.

Hey Daed! Where's the 4++ coming from? The Badmoons warlord trait? Can a Beastsnagga unit have that?


From a relic, BUT the app doesn't indicate he can't take it where the book might.

The usual WS3 BS5. Ranges are 12/24/48.

Thanks Daed. So not that impressive if it can't get that 4++. BUT, it's still a lot for 190 PPM when compared to similar units. That's the same price as a Leman Russ with heavy bolter sponsons, but with a 6++, and 4 more wounds. Doesn't mean it's undercosted, but it could mean some of those similar units are overcosted. Especially compared to similar units that cost more points and CP. But that doesn't make it broken.

The only thing impressive about the White Squig dude is that he can get back up on a 4+. My clawlord averages more damage, and 10 Warp Talons with Prey On the Weak can shred him. So no "broken" there either.


Or, one could note that the kill rig deals very little damage at any kind of range, moves 10" without fly and a gigantic base, and in melee honestly doesn't do all that much damage - about 7 unsaved wounds on average vs a T7 3+ target.


Yup, and now that we know that it can't get that 4++ we know it'll get wiped off the board by multi-meltas just like almost every other vehicle in the game. Again, nothing "OP Broken" here.


*technically* thats from a warlord trait and we dont know it cant get that. But yeah. It'll just not get to do that, obviously. XD

*checks Jidmah's post* Ah crap. He just said relics.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 03:34:09


Post by: Trimarius


The kill rig is locked to a specific warlord trait that only buffs squig units (6" aura of +1D to their bite, only). Despite the rather large squig at the front, it is not, itself, a squig unit. So don't worry about that. It doesn't even benefit from it's own warlord trait if you give it one.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 08:30:32


Post by: Jidmah


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
*checks Jidmah's post* Ah crap. He just said relics.


Yeah, most people were afraid of the 4++ or super-cybork relics on it. The leaks that came out earlier today also confirmed that it can't take any of the warlord traits that make it broken.

So GW actually did a decent job on this and it's now just a cute transport for beast snagga boyz with decent shooting and some mediocre psychic powers. Not a steal, but fair enough at 190 if you really want a model looking like that.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 09:43:41


Post by: BrianDavion


 Jidmah wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
*checks Jidmah's post* Ah crap. He just said relics.


Yeah, most people were afraid of the 4++ or super-cybork relics on it. The leaks that came out earlier today also confirmed that it can't take any of the warlord traits that make it broken.

So GW actually did a decent job on this and it's now just a cute transport for beast snagga boyz with decent shooting and some mediocre psychic powers. Not a steal, but fair enough at 190 if you really want a model looking like that.



Ya know, I'm thinking a "take unit X that every know knows is 'just alright' and cherry pick facts to prove it's OP" thread could be hilarious.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 09:58:17


Post by: Jidmah


I think Xenomancer would totally win that game


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 12:19:54


Post by: ERJAK


Cj4594 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.


Necrons, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Deathwatch were all pretty meh with necrons degrading heavily over time. Deathguard and Dark Angels are both GOOD but were never anywhere near broken like people thought they would be. The Sisters Dex is good also but is AT BEST a sidegrade to the previous one.

The majority of all book releases are mediocre, the majority of all model releases are pretty gak, ruleswise. People think new releases are always "OP" because they themselves are stupid mouthbreathing blowhards who have had the part of their brain capable of pattern recognition replaced with whining.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I'll reserve judgement on the "every release is broken" till we see the Nids book. Almost every Nid release since 5th has been mid-low tier at release.


You don't need to do that, we've had 10 Codex releases in 9th, 2 of them have been OP, 3 of them have been appropriate to the power curve, and 5 of them have been just slightly below curve or worse.

If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 12:41:57


Post by: a_typical_hero


ERJAK wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I'll reserve judgement on the "every release is broken" till we see the Nids book. Almost every Nid release since 5th has been mid-low tier at release.


You don't need to do that, we've had 10 Codex releases in 9th, 2 of them have been OP, 3 of them have been appropriate to the power curve, and 5 of them have been just slightly below curve or worse.

If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.

Just for the lols, let's look at Primaris for this edition: Bladeguard Veterans, Chaplain on bike and Eradicators are good. The turret, the bunker, the bikes, the tank, the land speeder, the fight last dude, the thick Intercessors, the punchy Intercessors, the buggy, the thick Intercessor Captain all range from meh to sidegrades to what you already had access to before. And no, the units to which you sidegrade aren't OP broken either.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 12:56:37


Post by: Dolnikan


a_typical_hero wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I'll reserve judgement on the "every release is broken" till we see the Nids book. Almost every Nid release since 5th has been mid-low tier at release.


You don't need to do that, we've had 10 Codex releases in 9th, 2 of them have been OP, 3 of them have been appropriate to the power curve, and 5 of them have been just slightly below curve or worse.

If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.

Just for the lols, let's look at Primaris for this edition: Bladeguard Veterans, Chaplain on bike and Eradicators are good. The turret, the bunker, the bikes, the tank, the land speeder, the fight last dude, the thick Intercessors, the punchy Intercessors, the buggy, the thick Intercessor Captain all range from meh to sidegrades to what you already had access to before. And no, the units to which you sidegrade aren't OP broken either.


It's almost hilarious really. Countless people keep on claiming that GW keeps bringing out new units that are the absolute best, and that it's a conscious strategy. And yet, the vast majority of new releases since I started paying attention to it (early 2000s) have been mediocre. There is no indication whatsoever of intentional power creep, let alone making units overpowered to sell the new stuff. In that case, Raiders, which have been around for decades, wouldn't have become the new hotness.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 13:03:04


Post by: Da Boss


GW aren't competent enough to release models that are overpowered to drive sales. That's been my only conclusion after years of paying attention to them.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 13:48:23


Post by: Gadzilla666


Jidmah wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
*checks Jidmah's post* Ah crap. He just said relics.


Yeah, most people were afraid of the 4++ or super-cybork relics on it. The leaks that came out earlier today also confirmed that it can't take any of the warlord traits that make it broken.

So GW actually did a decent job on this and it's now just a cute transport for beast snagga boyz with decent shooting and some mediocre psychic powers. Not a steal, but fair enough at 190 if you really want a model looking like that.

Agreed. It seems they did a pretty good job on avoiding the obvious mistakes on this one. I'm sure the Chicken Littles will find something else to freak out about though.

BrianDavion wrote:Ya know, I'm thinking a "take unit X that every know knows is 'just alright' and cherry pick facts to prove it's OP" thread could be hilarious.

Isn't that what this is?


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 16:55:31


Post by: Turnip Jedi


@ Dolnikan

The reason Raiders are the new Dark Kin hotness is its easier to stick good rules on an existing something than give the Xenos any new toys, as at a guess they havent got anything new new for a decade or so, maybe the planes


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 18:03:56


Post by: Arachnofiend


 Da Boss wrote:
GW aren't competent enough to release models that are overpowered to drive sales. That's been my only conclusion after years of paying attention to them.

We know for a fact there used to be executive meddling to push an OP model for sales (this specifically happened with the Wraithknight). That executive is no longer making decisions for the company...


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 19:53:13


Post by: the_scotsman


BrianDavion wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
*checks Jidmah's post* Ah crap. He just said relics.


Yeah, most people were afraid of the 4++ or super-cybork relics on it. The leaks that came out earlier today also confirmed that it can't take any of the warlord traits that make it broken.

So GW actually did a decent job on this and it's now just a cute transport for beast snagga boyz with decent shooting and some mediocre psychic powers. Not a steal, but fair enough at 190 if you really want a model looking like that.



Ya know, I'm thinking a "take unit X that every know knows is 'just alright' and cherry pick facts to prove it's OP" thread could be hilarious.


You can create the amusement of that thread by going to the search feature and typing in user "xenomancers"


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 20:00:25


Post by: The Red Hobbit


 Arachnofiend wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
GW aren't competent enough to release models that are overpowered to drive sales. That's been my only conclusion after years of paying attention to them.

We know for a fact there used to be executive meddling to push an OP model for sales (this specifically happened with the Wraithknight). That executive is no longer making decisions for the company...

Yep, very poor integrity on the part of their business leadership for that one. Which is a shame since it's a beautiful model with interesting fluff, I'd love to see it balanced in the future to be a "stronger wraithlord" with a reasonable cost (and weapons) to boot. Well, at least it makes for a good display piece on the shelf in 8th edition.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/21 20:19:38


Post by: Da Boss


Beast Snaggas represent a fairly significant new Xenos release. First new models I'm going to buy for my Ork army in over a decade.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/22 06:30:58


Post by: Bosskelot


ERJAK wrote:
If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.


what

Morvenn Vahl is literally showing up in every single sisters list because she's about 50 points too cheap.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/22 06:41:01


Post by: Void__Dragon


I think there are a few lists that don't have her but she does definitely seem way too cheap for everything she does.

Could it be that some lists don't have her just because the player hasn't acquired her/painted her up yet?


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/22 06:56:43


Post by: tneva82


 Void__Dragon wrote:
I think there are a few lists that don't have her but she does definitely seem way too cheap for everything she does.

Could it be that some lists don't have her just because the player hasn't acquired her/painted her up yet?


Well that applies to me. I have zero of the new models so obviously none appears in my lists

(and no it's not due to how good/bad she is. All my model budget goes to AOS as general plus until GW sorts spray can issue to EU I'm loathe to paint more models to my favourite painted army worried different shade of basecoat would affect final result. White is hard enough to paint without starting to change process)


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/22 07:21:09


Post by: BrianDavion


 Bosskelot wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.


what

Morvenn Vahl is literally showing up in every single sisters list because she's about 50 points too cheap.


that'll remain just long eneugh to sell out of a second production run of her


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/22 09:00:27


Post by: Lammia


 Bosskelot wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.


what

Morvenn Vahl is literally showing up in every single sisters list because she's about 50 points too cheap.
Except... She's not. She's popular but she's a good unit for WWSWF.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/22 20:39:00


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


Lammia wrote:
 Bosskelot wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
If you want to talk new release models, let's talk the latest wave: Celestian Sacresants and Morvenn Vahl are both very good but are excluded from lists almost as often as they're included. Paragon warsuits are as mediocre as mediocre gets. The Dogmata is a niche unit that only fills a couple of specific roles. The Castigator and the Crusade Banner are so ungodly terrible that they still haven't been released yet and no one cares. 2 Good, 1 Okay, 1 Meh, 2 TERRIBLE.

It is 100% verifiably not true that 'every release is broken'.


what

Morvenn Vahl is literally showing up in every single sisters list because she's about 50 points too cheap.
Except... She's not. She's popular but she's a good unit for WWSWF.

Well it's hard to tell - is she too cheap or is Gman about 100 points too expensive? It's probably more like...they should meet in the middle. These units are very similar in ability.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/22 21:15:40


Post by: PenitentJake


I'm looking forward to the time when it will be appropriate for me to field Morvenn; she won't be joining my Order of Battle until at least three Crusade forces come together.

It's going to take forever; I may end up losing my patience and just playing a Strike Force matched play battle just to get a feel for her. I just know that if I stick to my guns and wait until it suits the story, it will feel like so much more of an event.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 02:16:44


Post by: Altima


As for the original topic, I'd argue that the new SoB was received with about as much fanfare as a wet fart. Most everything in there was a downgrade or sidegrade. A few good units, still strong competitively, but the internal balancing in it was so bad. Like so bad that people are forgetting that the castigators and flag cheerleaders haven't been released yet.

 Da Boss wrote:
GW aren't competent enough to release models that are overpowered to drive sales. That's been my only conclusion after years of paying attention to them.


Their new strategy seems to be release new models with whatever rules because people will buy them anyway, then later on the line, maybe when sales slack off, then make them good so sales pick up.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 04:37:41


Post by: BrianDavion


Altima wrote:
As for the original topic, I'd argue that the new SoB was received with about as much fanfare as a wet fart. Most everything in there was a downgrade or sidegrade. A few good units, still strong competitively, but the internal balancing in it was so bad. Like so bad that people are forgetting that the castigators and flag cheerleaders haven't been released yet.



the flag cheerleaders are pretty obviously intended for crusade. and the catigator is as good as any only tank right now (IE not very) still the rest of the new stuff was solid.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 04:48:56


Post by: Jarms48


Well it's hard to tell - is she too cheap or is Gman about 100 points too expensive? It's probably more like...they should meet in the middle. These units are very similar in ability.


This, same with the new Snakebite character. They're 100 points cheaper than Morvenn and do way more damage.

Gman definitely should go down in points a bit.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 07:15:01


Post by: BrianDavion


Jarms48 wrote:
Well it's hard to tell - is she too cheap or is Gman about 100 points too expensive? It's probably more like...they should meet in the middle. These units are very similar in ability.


This, same with the new Snakebite character. They're 100 points cheaper than Morvenn and do way more damage.

Gman definitely should go down in points a bit.


keep in mind damage isn't the only thing here, both Gulliman and Morvenn have a nice force multipling aura. does the new snakebite char do that?

(Morvenn is also subfaction agnostic so that's a big plus to her in my book.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 07:41:56


Post by: Cynista


I'm glad to be validated 9 months later regarding Necrons. I said the day the book released that it was an underpowered, overcomplicated and uninspiring codex, and that was compared to Marines - whom people now consider mediocre.

For what it's worth I think Marines, Sisters and Death Guard are all really good. Some of the SM subchapters ain't great but with access to that many generic datasheets and strats you can cry me a river. Dark Eldar and AdMech have broken the game and Orks are probably too strong too. I would rather every codex be on the same level as Necrons than AdMech. There comes a point when it's just silly and the game is over by turn 3 and oh no it's 7th edition all over again


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 09:02:49


Post by: Jidmah


Honest question - do you think necrons are inherently broken, or could point drops (read: more stuff on the board) fix whatever issues they are having right now?


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 09:25:57


Post by: Commissar Yarrork


Everyone losing their minds about the 4 mortal wounds. It triggers on 6s, on 3 attacks.

That's an average of 4 mortal wounds every 2 turns. 8 mortal wounds in an entire game if you get turn 2 charge and immediately get another charge next turn.

So if he gets a charge against a character he should kill them, but so would a 95 point warboss with DKK.

If he charges your average space marine unit they're probably dead, but most ork units will do this, plus then he's there with his pants down and gets mowed down by multimeltas, or any S8 shooting, or a dedicated melee unit.

And that's a single good character in a codex that saw near universal nerfs.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 09:27:21


Post by: Slipspace


 Jidmah wrote:
Honest question - do you think necrons are inherently broken, or could point drops (read: more stuff on the board) fix whatever issues they are having right now?


Both. Well, maybe not quite "inherently broken" but I think there are a number of serious issues beyond points values. Command Protocols are stupidly restrictive and complex compared to other army-wide special rules, for example. The structure of our Codex makes getting a decent amount of characters difficult. Our Core and Dynastic Agent restrictions make synergy difficult. Things like Doomsday Blasters/Cannons still being D6 shots and D6 damage is a problem. These problems wouldn't be so bad if they'd signalled a trend for other 9th edition Codices but yet again GW have shown a complete inability to develop a design philosophy and stick to it for more than a handful of books. If everyone got minor buffs after jumping through some hoops as their army-wide rules that would be fine but we've seen everything from DG contagions to SM doctrines and DE PfP just be things you get without trying. Same with needing to think about which characters you include, or whether it's worth adding a Patrol to squeeze more in. But most of the other books put many of the support characters in Elite, unlike Necrons.

There are a lot of units that can be fixed with a points drop but the core problems need errata to fix. The biggest issue is those core problems are some of the tings that really determine the army's character.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 09:29:31


Post by: Jidmah


Honestly, I think that named character is just too expensive. Even if you are already playing snakebites, running the regular Beastboss on Squigosaur with relic and a decent warlord trait seems like a much better option since it performs better against many more different opponents.

Essentially you are paying a lot of extra points for a lot of damage that is likely to end up as overkill. The main advantage seems to be being able to throw about orkyfied quotes of Captain Ahab all game.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 10:45:05


Post by: Lammia


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

Well it's hard to tell - is she too cheap or is Gman about 100 points too expensive? It's probably more like...they should meet in the middle. These units are very similar in ability.
Sisters aren't Marines. I'd be wary of costing them the same because they look like similar buff bots. In truth, Idk what people do with Vahl's buff in most lists. There's nothing in most lists that do better with her presence. The one exception I've seen is the 20 Gurl BSS...


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 11:28:30


Post by: the_scotsman


Jarms48 wrote:
Well it's hard to tell - is she too cheap or is Gman about 100 points too expensive? It's probably more like...they should meet in the middle. These units are very similar in ability.


This, same with the new Snakebite character. They're 100 points cheaper than Morvenn and do way more damage.

Gman definitely should go down in points a bit.


Damage -1 vs damage halved.
3+sv base vs 2+sv base
a S6 heavy bolter and 2 krak missiles that reroll BS2+ hits and wound rolls vs a BS5+ 18" range Thump Gun
4+ save vs mortal wounds vs not.
RR1s to hit and wound and 1 unit RRs all hits and wounds, vs +1 to hit in melee

Gosh I wonder why morven might be a bit more expensive than mozrog, it's a good thing the only thing that determines value for point cost is how much damage something does in melee.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 12:02:39


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Jidmah wrote:
Honest question - do you think necrons are inherently broken, or could point drops (read: more stuff on the board) fix whatever issues they are having right now?


I asked one of my most regular opponents about this last night. he plays Necrons almost exclusively and comes over often to chuck some dice and down a few brews. points cost reductions could do it, a lot of issues as it often does, but reworking some mechanics would help. I would like to see reanimation proticals work even when the unit os wiped. theoredically the models are just repairing and getting up not needing other members of the unit to be doing repairs. leave casualties on the board and add something like normal repair protocols on the turn the get knocked down and on a 6 even later in the battle they get back up.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 13:24:53


Post by: EightFoldPath


 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Honest question - do you think necrons are inherently broken, or could point drops (read: more stuff on the board) fix whatever issues they are having right now?


I asked one of my most regular opponents about this last night. he plays Necrons almost exclusively and comes over often to chuck some dice and down a few brews. points cost reductions could do it, a lot of issues as it often does, but reworking some mechanics would help. I would like to see reanimation proticals work even when the unit os wiped. theoredically the models are just repairing and getting up not needing other members of the unit to be doing repairs. leave casualties on the board and add something like normal repair protocols on the turn the get knocked down and on a 6 even later in the battle they get back up.

It does feel "wrong" in some ways to have resurrection protocols work even if the whole unit is wiped, the idea being that you are supposed to give each faction/unit certain weaknesses for an opponent to exploit. However, it seems that memo only got sent to half the codex writers, as Marines/Sisters/Ad-Mech seem to have a writer who every time a new model/book comes out asks themself "what weakness(es) should I try to fix in the faction today".

But it would fix the game to game points cost issue of warriors they have had for at least two editions, which is they either are too cheap if your opponent can't even do 10 wounds in a single activation or they are too expensive if your opponent can do 20+ wounds very reliably.

Side note: Thanks to this thread I want to hear "Every Release is Broken" to the tune of "Everything is Awesome".


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 13:29:19


Post by: Slipspace


For Reanimation it would also be good to allow it after taking casualties from any source (except possibly Morale) rather than only from an attack. It just seems really odd that a Warrior destroyed by a Volcano Cannon can stand up just fine but if it's next to an exploding Land Speeder they have no chance. Or that Smite just destroys them, especially given the Necrons are a race that fought and won a war against a race of psychic powerhouses.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 13:34:17


Post by: SemperMortis


 the_scotsman wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
Well it's hard to tell - is she too cheap or is Gman about 100 points too expensive? It's probably more like...they should meet in the middle. These units are very similar in ability.


This, same with the new Snakebite character. They're 100 points cheaper than Morvenn and do way more damage.

Gman definitely should go down in points a bit.


Damage -1 vs damage halved.
3+sv base vs 2+sv base
a S6 heavy bolter and 2 krak missiles that reroll BS2+ hits and wound rolls vs a BS5+ 18" range Thump Gun
4+ save vs mortal wounds vs not.
RR1s to hit and wound and 1 unit RRs all hits and wounds, vs +1 to hit in melee

Gosh I wonder why morven might be a bit more expensive than mozrog, it's a good thing the only thing that determines value for point cost is how much damage something does in melee.


I am now going to start calling this ODS. Ork Derangement Syndrome.

Symptoms include but are not limited to:
"Orkz shooting should be over priced because they are good at CC and because they are orkz" usually followed by "Ork CC should be way more expensive because they are so good at it"

"Ork Boyz are SO OP!" This is usually said after said player slaughtered 60 but the last 30 got into CC and managed to kill 1 unit in return.

"Ork characters should be more expensive because of how good they are in CC" Also "Ork characters should pay more for their ranged firepower since its so good" Usually the poster forgets that orkz have BS5 for the most part.

Please add on to the list of Ork Derangement Syndrome symptoms


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 14:12:34


Post by: Cynista


 Jidmah wrote:
Honest question - do you think necrons are inherently broken, or could point drops (read: more stuff on the board) fix whatever issues they are having right now?

They are inherently broken as the codex was clearly written with different specifications compared to every other 9th book. But drastic point drops could still keep Necrons competitive. The community has to take some of the blame in my opinion, playtesters have overrated the last two books so if their feedback to GW is "damn this gak is strong" then GW aren't going to improve anything and may even make nerfs. Whenever Necrons do get anything powerful there is an enormous outcry from the usual suspects and things end up getting nerfed quickly. So we end up in situations where units and abilities feel neutered or like the Nightbringer and CCB, receieve entirely unwarranted points increases


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 14:36:54


Post by: Daedalus81


I do not support point drops for Necrons. We'll just wind up in the same position as prior.

I'd rather see some rules tweaks.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 14:39:11


Post by: Darsath


The best solution for Necrons would be rules changes. Preferably a buff for some of the Command Protocols and a change to Reanimation could be great. Realistically, what we're most likely to get is a couple points drops.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 14:47:15


Post by: G00fySmiley


Darsath wrote:
The best solution for Necrons would be rules changes. Preferably a buff for some of the Command Protocols and a change to Reanimation could be great. Realistically, what we're most likely to get is a couple points drops.


yea, they need some work, but given the current codex the most to hope for is points reductions and MAYBE one rework or 2 to a rule. Though that said, it is nice to have an army my craftworld eldar get to regularly play on a similar power level with as sad as that is.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 15:58:22


Post by: Cynista


I expect what we will see is a few point drops for units that nobody uses, which will be nice for people wanting to use them but won't actually move the needle on the faction's power at all. And we won't see that until December/January anyways


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 16:47:17


Post by: Darsath


Cynista wrote:
I expect what we will see is a few point drops for units that nobody uses, which will be nice for people wanting to use them but won't actually move the needle on the faction's power at all. And we won't see that until December/January anyways

This is my biggest fear. Since there is a fair delay between the changes and print.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 18:53:09


Post by: Arachnofiend


Command Protocols being made more lenient is a really easy and obvious solution, as is making Reanimation work against mortal wounds. I'd be more hesitant about making Reanimation work on wiped squads, probably a good change as a once-per-game stratagem but as a general rule it'd be pretty questionable.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 18:58:23


Post by: Darsath


 Arachnofiend wrote:
Command Protocols being made more lenient is a really easy and obvious solution, as is making Reanimation work against mortal wounds. I'd be more hesitant about making Reanimation work on wiped squads, probably a good change as a once-per-game stratagem but as a general rule it'd be pretty questionable.

Making it a once per game stratagem sounds pretty reasonable. Probably with a CP scaling on the Power Level of the wiped unit would work.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 19:19:02


Post by: Cynista


I frankly couldn't believe that it wasn't the first new strategem they wrote for the new codex. Such an obvious and easy one


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 19:35:04


Post by: Arachnofiend


I can only assume they did think of the stratagem, but there was an instance of an enemy player whittling down a shieldguard unit over an entire shooting phase and then having the stratagem proc'd after their last activation and the outrage outdid reason. If there's one thing that's consistent about control-oriented builds in all games, it's that they tend to piss off players of killier lists.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/23 22:50:02


Post by: the_scotsman


 Arachnofiend wrote:
I can only assume they did think of the stratagem, but there was an instance of an enemy player whittling down a shieldguard unit over an entire shooting phase and then having the stratagem proc'd after their last activation and the outrage outdid reason. If there's one thing that's consistent about control-oriented builds in all games, it's that they tend to piss off players of killier lists.


^this.

In any given game system, there will be things that are held artificially less powerful than they should be to be balanced in order to cater to players' feelings.

In 40k, that is:

-Anything that is not a character should never ever ever not die

-Anything that is a character should never ever ever die

Any unit that causes one of those rules to be broken will generally be made less powerful than the game average to protect fragile feelings.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/24 02:28:30


Post by: Daedalus81


The other end of the problem is that any supposed play testing of Necrons would not have been against some of the other books to come after. I still think they're quite capable, but they could do with some support to keep the book from falling off the cliff.


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/24 07:40:04


Post by: EightFoldPath


Regarding playtesting, I'm sure 3 wound Death Guard Terminators seemed OK against D6 damage dark lances (50% chance to survive one shot) rather than D3+3 damage dark lances (0% chance to survive).

One well known set of playtesters claimed they tested the D6 damage version and the D3+3 was news to them. Also I'm not sure any playtesters have come out yet and said "yes we tested this broken thing and gave it a big thumbs up".


Every Release is Broken @ 2021/07/24 08:16:55


Post by: AduroT


Part of the problem with Necrons is so many subtypes. Core, Dynastic Agents, Destroyers, Canoptek, and even Flayed Ones who are none of the above.

Command Protocols requires a Noble, which is only the Overlord and Lord, which pigeon holes your HQ choices. Even just removing the Noble present requirement on that would help it a bunch.

For Reanimation Protocols, while it would lose a chunk of the flavor, I’d simply change it to a 5+++, though I know that’d make my Death Guard friend angry.

Their Relics could use some work as well.