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Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 20:27:14


Post by: Tawnis


Okay, so this has been rattling around in my brain for a long time now and I wanted to get both get it off my chest and hear what everyone else thinks about it. Basically, I think that even with their Superhuman Chad Marine status, 1000 members for a chapter is just too small for a universe like 40k.

So, lets take the boys in blue as an example of my point here since there is a lot of lore to find on them. I'm going to just use the last 25 years of M41 here as a sample.

974: Fall of Damnos: Ultramarines 2nd Company suffered heavy casualties from Necron forces, loosing approximately 60 battle brothers, as well as multiple tanks and Dreadnoughts.
982: Gurun System Conflict: Ultramarines 4th Company shot down an Ork Warship over the world of Womo, destroying the Orks and slaying the Warboss at the cost of 17 battle brothers and Captain Tiy Newman.
984: Burbeck’s Asteroid: Marneus Calgar led an unspecified number of Ultramarines against the Ork Warlord Shaggro Worldwrecker’s asteroid fortress. Casualties were high as well as losing the entire complement of Dreadnoughts to a massive melta trap. Though the Ultramarines did finally carry the day after Calgar committed his aerial reserves to the fight, it is stated that they came very close to defeat.
992: Ichar IV: The start of the second Tyranic War, Calgar led an undisclosed, but large number of Ultramarines, to aid the Scythes of the Emperor and Lementors against Hive Fleet Kraken. Losses confirmed as very heavy for the Ultramarines and near total for the other two chapters.
997: Zeist Campaign: Ultramarines 2nd Company strikes against the well defended Tau in the Ziest sector. Though successful, they are the only SM forces in the are until some time later when nearly a dozen other chapters arrive to push the Tau out of the system. Casualties’ unknown.
999: Battle of Tarsis Ultra: Ultramarines 4th Company suffered heavy losses against the Tyranids, then potentially wiped out when the world was destroyed soon after by the Iron warriors Warsmith Honsu, but total loss is unconfirmed.
999: Second Battle for Damnos: Calgar leads a large force of Ultramarines, including Sicarius’ 2nd Company back to Damnos. They suffer heavy casualties but cleanse the world of Necrons.
999: Invasion of Ultramar: Warsmith Honsu invades Ultramar, the defence costing the lives of 397 Battle Brothers across all companies. (Unknown if this includes the losses from Tarsis Ultra or not.)
999: Liberation of Lagan: Ultramarines 3rd Company liberate Lagan from Tau forces. Casualties’ unknown.
999: 13th Black Crusade: Ultramarines Honour Company (Comprised from members of successor chapters as well, seems outside the 1000 Codex required. Odd for Ultramarines.) Participated in many major engagements, though combat strength and losses are unknown.
999: Siege of Fenris: Ultramarines 6th company arrives alongside massive relief force to aid the Space Wolves. Losses unknown.
999: The Ultramar Campaign: The system is besieged by yet more Chaos forces; losses are high before Guilliman is resurrected and turns the tide of battle.

The final year of the timeline seems a bit muddled, Warp travel and such will do that. It is also clear that it was an unprecedented year of conflict, but even so, the galaxy is always at war and the Space Marines, always fighting. I know that they get Primaris reinforcements and all after this, but I’m using this as an example of any given point it time from the end of the HH to the current.

How can they possibly keep up recruitment to stem the losses that are seen here, or that would be seen across any of the Space Marine chapters if we had the full knowledge of every conflict every company fought in over this period? The process of creating a Space Marine is not an easy one, taking 5-10 years minimum. Not to mention transport time to find wherever the company currently is fighting to delivery reinforcing troops. On top of that, to be Codex complaint, they can’t surpass 100 battle brothers per Company, so by the time reinforcements arrive, they will likely have sustained more losses in the interim even if you disregard the delay in actually creating a Space Marine.

On top of all that, regardless of how strong an individual Space Marine is, they can’t be everywhere, and 100 battle brothers can only do so much, even if they were somehow at full combat strength. They would need to be used almost exclusively in support of other Imperial units in order to actually accomplish anything beyond Assassination and/or Spec Ops deployments. Yet we often see them campaigning on their own, or with minimal support except in the largest of conflicts.

For example, I’m reading Farsight, Crisis of Faith right now and the Scar Lords chapter loses a full combat squad to a single Broadside, then another to a single XV8 Iridium Crisis suit and 2 sniper drones. There’s also the short story Kayoun where a single pathfinder and about a dozen drones takes out an entire Imperial convoy as well as their Space Marine escort. Each of these comparatively minor incidents would be a serious blow to the companies involved and seem like they would hardly be a rarity in the war torn 41st millennium.

So, how would this go about being fixed to make more sense, not just from losses sustained, but from the sense of actually being able to carry out a military campaign over anything other than a tiny theatre of war and the logistics of reinforcing to a significant degree? I mean, out of all the words to describe Space Marine conflicts in the lore, “tiny” hardly ever comes to mind.

My solution would be to make a very tiny errata to literally everything Space Marine related. Add a 0 to every number. Chapters would be 10,000 strong with companies or 1000. This would still be very small on a galactic scale but would actually make sense as a fighting force that (combined with how strong they are) could carry out military campaigns on their own. It also makes the wildly varied effectiveness of the Space Marines make more sense. In a particularly hard battle a few dozen battle brothers dying is a massive blow if your strength is only 100, but just a setback if you have 1000. In the larger conflicts loosing 396 out of 1000 marines, when you're already not at full strength is a devastating blow, but 3960 out of 10000, while proportionally the same, still leaves you with a respectable fighting force at the end of it all. With wars that companies can be committed to for years or more, the manpower just wouldn’t last at 100, no matter how strong Space Marines are.

Anyhow, I think that I’ve rambled long enough, what do you all think? Agree, disagree? Flaw in my logic somewhere?


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 20:40:25


Post by: Gert


Chapters having 1000 Astartes is the guideline of the Codex Astartes but in reality its probably more around 1250-1500 excluding Aspirants. The Chapter Librarius, Reclusiasm, Forge, and Apothecarium will usually have a large amount of members. Including pilots, drivers, other vehicle crew and fleet officers we can expand even further.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 20:40:46


Post by: ZenBadger


Having lost half a company in some of my worst games all I can think is that new recruits must be sprinting through the indoctrination process. Since the early days the first founding chapters have taken the spotlight and seem to be everywhere, doing everything. That makes no sense for such tiny chapters. Originally there were meant to be thousands of there tiny forces but with the rise of named characters and now stratagems and traits, it has made the big five even more attractive. They just are not big enough to live up to the background.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 20:44:25


Post by: Turnip Jedi


I think the 1000 Chapters of a 1000 marines was just something that sounded cool at the time of RT



Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 20:45:48


Post by: Gert


TBF the First Founding Chapters are going going have large pools of Aspirants to make Astartes from and Chapters like the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines have very stable gene-seed that has very high implantation success rates.
Also OP the battle for Taris Ultra was seperate from the incident with Honsou. Honsou destroyed the planet some time after the 4th had left and rebuilt its numbers in time for the Invasion of Ultramar by the Bloodborn.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 20:53:38


Post by: Tawnis


 ZenBadger wrote:
Having lost half a company in some of my worst games all I can think is that new recruits must be sprinting through the indoctrination process. Since the early days the first founding chapters have taken the spotlight and seem to be everywhere, doing everything. That makes no sense for such tiny chapters. Originally there were meant to be thousands of there tiny forces but with the rise of named characters and now stratagems and traits, it has made the big five even more attractive. They just are not big enough to live up to the background.


Yeah, exactly. It would make it fit more with battles on the Tabletop too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
TBF the First Founding Chapters are going going have large pools of Aspirants to make Astartes from and Chapters like the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines have very stable gene-seed that has very high implantation success rates.
Also OP the battle for Taris Ultra was seperate from the incident with Honsou. Honsou destroyed the planet some time after the 4th had left and rebuilt its numbers in time for the Invasion of Ultramar by the Bloodborn.


Good to know, but since they were both in aprox 999, where did the 4th Company get the manpower to get back to full strength before the Invasion of Ultramar? I suppose they could have been assigned new marines upon their return, so long as they were already ready, but again it takes years if not a decade to make a Space Marine. The scout company is only so big as well, it can't re-enforce indefinitely. They would have been practically bled dry after the second Tyranic war, with little opportunity to provide reinforcements in the years that followed. They would still be scrambling with backlog in 999.

Even if their gene-seed was 100% success, (which I think Ultramarines are the closest too) and even assuming that all the required aspirants were ready when needed (likely only close to achievable in a popular first founding chapter, if that) it still doesn't take out any of the logistical problems actually getting those reinforcements where they need to go, when they are needed. Travel in the warp can take months or years. Say a company sustains 20% casualties and sends for reinforcements. Their 20 fresh faced marines arrive a year later to a company already having been in conflict for a full year depleting its strength further. You'd have to have a steady stream of new recruits coming in constantly, but that stops when you hit 100, or 150ish with support marines / pilots / ect... If the supply was constant... maybe possible, but the long lag from a fully operational company tot he time they would see their first reinforcements is just so long, it would be very easy to see them wiped out before any of their numbers could be replenished. Keep in mind, these guys are almost always fighting and thus typically sustaining at least a small number of casualties in those conflicts.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 21:13:11


Post by: mrFickle


It makes sense when too many of these guys under one leader can divide your empire in half.

Space marine chapters are like special forces, small specialised forces for getting certain jobs done. The bulk of the fighting in 40K is done by the army and the navy.



Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 21:20:18


Post by: Gert


Firstly, ignore the timestamp. There is no way to know when exactly in 999.M41 Tarsis Ultra was invaded. Time is basically meaningless in 40k anyway.
Secondly, in times of crisis Aspirants can be turned into full Astartes without the need for progression through the Scout Company. So if there's 200 Aspirants simply waiting for positions in the Scout Company to open up, stick the last bits of squishy bits inside them, strap them in PA and let their experience come when already a full Astartes.
Thirdly, casualties can range from wounded to dead. Half a Company of casualties could just mean half a wounded Company, after all Astartes do not die easily.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 21:22:10


Post by: Tawnis


mrFickle wrote:
It makes sense when too many of these guys under one leader can divide your empire in half.

Space marine chapters are like special forces, small specialised forces for getting certain jobs done. The bulk of the fighting in 40K is done by the army and the navy.



I meant adding a 0 to the HH numbers of the Legions too, so it would proportionally still be the same as it is now.

They are always called that, and from the numbers, that seems like how they should be used. However, what we often see of them is not in that type of roll. Like I said in my original post, I noted that as they exist now Spec Ops / Assassination / Support roles would be all they could really do. However they are often running large worldwide campaigns with little or even no support. Only the largest system wide engagements show them backed by what seems like a respectable fighting force. I think it's just to make them look more badass in the lore, it just practically doesn't make sense.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 21:22:25


Post by: Gert


mrFickle wrote:
It makes sense when too many of these guys under one leader can divide your empire in half.

Space marine chapters are like special forces, small specialised forces for getting certain jobs done. The bulk of the fighting in 40K is done by the army and the navy.


To be fair, the Legions weren't special forces during the Crusade and Heresy. They were common enough. Plus they were divided into Expeditionary Fleets with Army, Mechanicum and sometimes Titan or Knight support as well. So if half the Legions go to Horus, then so do roughly half the Expeditionary Fleets.

The process for creating Astartes in the Crusade/Heresy was also superior to the modern equivalent and during the closing stages of the Heresy lots of corners were cut on both sides to rapidly increase their numbers of Astartes, leading to things like the World Eaters Inductii or Raven Guard Raptors.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 21:25:11


Post by: Karak Norn Clansman


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I think the 1000 Chapters of a 1000 marines was just something that sounded cool at the time of RT


It is also a reference to the breakdown of Roman legions into their smaller and more numerous late antique counterparts. It is designed to better patrol a wider area in more mobile small units as opposed to a large legion designed for conquest, and make treachery somewhat more difficult by shrinking the power of the army's standard unit.

And has been stated, the Adeptus Astartes in the Age of Imperium (not the early Imperium) are small special forces.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 21:29:32


Post by: Tawnis


 Gert wrote:
Firstly, ignore the timestamp. There is no way to know when exactly in 999.M41 Tarsis Ultra was invaded. Time is basically meaningless in 40k anyway.
Secondly, in times of crisis Aspirants can be turned into full Astartes without the need for progression through the Scout Company. So if there's 200 Aspirants simply waiting for positions in the Scout Company to open up, stick the last bits of squishy bits inside them, strap them in PA and let their experience come when already a full Astartes.
Thirdly, casualties can range from wounded to dead. Half a Company of casualties could just mean half a wounded Company, after all Astartes do not die easily.


True, the warp does mess with stuff, but I figured at least it meant they happened more-less around that time give or take a few years. (I know that the jury's out on if it is even the 42nd melenium yet, but I figure even with a galactic discrepancy of 10% 7 years shouldn't have too much of a discrepancy, 2-3 tops?)

That is true, I guess it does depend on how many aspirants are kicking around. Still I'm using the Ultramarines as (aside from the non codex compliant chapters) they are the most likely to receive the best support and reinforcements. This situation is even worse to the other chapters. Even with 200 ready to go, a large campaign like the second Tyranic war uses that up, then you're SOL for the next half a decade while you train more aspirants? It could work in a vacuum, but not when you're in a state of constant warfare.

That's true too, it is hard to pin down exact numbers. I think they only ones that were that specific was that only 40 marines made it off Damnos, confirming 60 plus support dead as they were at full strength upon deployment. Even if only half the actual numbers died, these are just the conflicts we know about. Once again, these guys are constantly at war, there would be many more losses that are not recorded on the list I put together.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I think the 1000 Chapters of a 1000 marines was just something that sounded cool at the time of RT


It is also a reference to the breakdown of Roman legions into their smaller and more numerous late antique counterparts. It is designed to better patrol a wider area in more mobile small units as opposed to a large legion designed for conquest, and make treachery somewhat more difficult by shrinking the power of the army's standard unit.

And has been stated, the Adeptus Astartes in the Age of Imperium (not the early Imperium) are small special forces.


Great point about the Roman Legions, I'd forgotten about that.

I guess maybe the question should then be, why don't the Space Marines act like a small specialist force, when that is what they are supposed to be. XD


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 21:32:54


Post by: Mr Nobody


This could be an issue of different authors writing different stories. No story is complete without casualties and you can't really consult every bit of lore coming out to keep track of casualties. Another issue is varying levels of plot armor. Naturally, the Farsight book is going to have the Tau killing whole squads of space marines. You need to show the Tau being effective. So the casualties pile up and suddenly 1000 marines run out rather quickly.

An interesting in-lore explanation could be that the limit of 1000 marines is simply outdated. The imperium was in a relatively stable point in it's history. Chaos forces had been driven back into the eye of terror, the necrons and tyranids were non-existent and the orks were still repopulating. And maybe there was an expectation that these new chapters would keep close ties with their parent legions. Casualties could be offset by the sharing of resources among chapters. Next thing you know, chapters are flung out into every corners of an imperium to face foes they were unprepared for with woefully inadequate supply lines.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 21:41:23


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Tawnis wrote:
 Gert wrote:

I guess maybe the question should then be, why don't the Space Marines act like a small specialist force, when that is what they are supposed to be. XD


Because handfuls of small spec ops teams running competent operations doesnt sell globs of models ?


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 21:46:38


Post by: Tawnis


 Mr Nobody wrote:
This could be an issue of different authors writing different stories. No story is complete without casualties and you can't really consult every bit of lore coming out to keep track of casualties. Another issue is varying levels of plot armor. Naturally, the Farsight book is going to have the Tau killing whole squads of space marines. You need to show the Tau being effective. So the casualties pile up and suddenly 1000 marines run out rather quickly.

An interesting in-lore explanation could be that the limit of 1000 marines is simply outdated. The imperium was in a relatively stable point in it's history. Chaos forces had been driven back into the eye of terror, the necrons and tyranids were non-existent and the orks were still repopulating. And maybe there was an expectation that these new chapters would keep close ties with their parent legions. Casualties could be offset by the sharing of resources among chapters. Next thing you know, chapters are flung out into every corners of an imperium to face foes they were unprepared for with woefully inadequate supply lines.


Yeah, exactly! With the number increased, you wouldn't have to suspend disbelief on the occasions when the Marines get outfought or just grinded down over time.

That's a great idea for a fix and it makes total sense. Given how bad the Imperium is at keeping track of everything, at some point maybe they just thought it was a decimal error and ignored it. XD I mean, if they could sell the community on Primaris, I'm sure this wouldn't be that hard to a QOL change to make things much less head scratchy.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 21:48:15


Post by: Gert


A lot of 40k relies on suspension of disbelief especially SM and their losses.
GW also had a love for putting stuff in 999.M41 despite there being no real reason to so half the events that everyone knows seem to take place all in the same "year".


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 21:57:41


Post by: CorwinB


That has always been part of my headcannon that the 1000 Marines per Chapter is imperial propaganda designed to make Space Marines look a lot more impressive than they already are (and at the same time look more "manageable" in case of rebellion), and that the actual number is at least 10 times as much, if not more.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 22:00:27


Post by: Tawnis


 Gert wrote:
A lot of 40k relies on suspension of disbelief especially SM and their losses.
GW also had a love for putting stuff in 999.M41 despite there being no real reason to so half the events that everyone knows seem to take place all in the same "year".


That is kinda the point of the comment, how could GW make the universe and the Space Marines more believable.

LoL, very true. I fell like if they hadn't moved the timeline forward we were eventually going to know what happened in every corner of the galaxy in that year. XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CorwinB wrote:
That has always been part of my headcannon that the 1000 Marines per Chapter is imperial propaganda designed to make Space Marines look a lot more impressive than they already are (and at the same time look more "manageable" in case of rebellion), and that the actual number is at least 10 times as much, if not more.


Ohhh, that's a really good idea too. I like that one. Not only does it fit with all the stories that exist, but feels very much like a thing that the High Lords would come up with as a propaganda tactic.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 22:01:57


Post by: Iron_Captain


Space Marine chapters are significantly smaller than a special forces unit in real life. 1000 Marines are so few they would be militarily insignificant, especially in conflicts waged on a planetary scale.

Then again, wars in 40K don't appear to be very large. The entire 3rd War for Armageddon (supposedly one of the largest wars the Imperium ever fought) saw less men deployed than the real life Battle of Kursk in WW2. Even the Orks' numbers amount to 4 million at most, which is significantly less than real life military forces during major conflicts (the US military alone deployed over 12 million men in 1945 for example)

Sci-fi writers have no sense of scale, so Space Marine chapters are unrealistically small. But they can still have an impact within 40K because military conflicts and opposing forces are also unrealistically small.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 22:07:13


Post by: Gert


Problems of early era 40k background that never got changed. Too few things in almost every single conflict.
I think Imperial Armour books handle conflicts better. The Siege of Vraks has roughly 5.5 million soldiers plus 9 Warbands of CSM and a Legio of Chaos Titans on the defence vs 34 Krieg Regiments, half the Dark Angels, and forces of the Red Scorpions, Red Hunters and Grey Knights as well as Titans. The end result saw total annihilation or retreat of the Chaos forces and 14 million dead Guardsmen, 200 Dark Angels, hundreds of Scorpions, Hunters and Knights, 4 Inquisitors and 22 Titans.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 22:11:17


Post by: Tawnis


 Iron_Captain wrote:
Space Marine chapters are significantly smaller than a special forces unit in real life. 1000 Marines are so few they would be militarily insignificant, especially in conflicts waged on a planetary scale.

Then again, wars in 40K don't appear to be very large. The entire 3rd War for Armageddon (supposedly one of the largest wars the Imperium ever fought) saw less men deployed than the real life Battle of Kursk in WW2. Even the Orks' numbers amount to 4 million at most, which is significantly less than real life military forces during major conflicts (the US military alone deployed over 12 million men in 1945 for example)

Sci-fi writers have no sense of scale, so Space Marine chapters are unrealistically small. But they can still have an impact within 40K because military conflicts and opposing forces are also unrealistically small.


Yeah, that's always been a bit of a head scratcher too. I always just assumed that there were more forces that took part that weren't written about, or the numbers only encompassed part of the conflict.

So maybe it should be add a 0 to the end of every military number in 40k, not just the Space Marines?


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 22:29:48


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Kind of yes, kind of no.

As a rare resource, but one capable of tipping even the direst loss into a victory, their numbers don’t matter as much as how they’re deployed.

Traditionally of course that’s identify the enemy’s command structure, get down and kick the absolute snot out of it, leaving the foe reeling, disorganised and primed for the IG’s hammer blow.

Given they can be effective even down to the squad level, those 1,000 can be spread fairly thin.

But, in the background? They’re….kinda used wrong. Committing to protracted wars, front line fighting.

Consider the various wars for Armageddon. Where was the teleport strike when Ghaz’s presence was confirmed in a given battle? Even if that strike failed, they’d take significant amounts of Ghaz’s best drinking buddies with them, which in turn still weakens fine overall Waaaagh!

Space Battles? Batter down the shields and teleport troops, or launch boarding craft and tear out the engine and/or Bridge.

When portrayed “accurately”, they’re a force multiplier for other Imperial Forces. They can survive in environments others can’t, and can fight in environments others can’t. They can reach the places other forces might struggle to reach.

Fighting trench warfare or city warfare? An Astartes is far more effective, as each Brother, even a standard Tactical Marine is an absolute terror. Imagine a single non-jump pack Assault Squad acting in a dispersed formation in amongst a trench system. They don’t need to sleep. They don’t need to eat. They don’t fatigue. Come down to it, they don’t even need bolt rounds or power for their chain swords, because they’re perfectly capable of punching your head clean off in a Jason Takes Manhattan stylee.

Sure, it’s going to take them time to wreck the place fully, but wreck it they will, because you’ve little to no chance of bringing to bear the numbers needed to slow them down, let alone actually stop them.

So in those sorts of circumstances, the background sizes work. But for how they’re all too often described in the background, their numbers are laughably ineffective.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 22:34:30


Post by: steelhead177th


I have always thought it was 1000 ACTIVE marines. There would always be more marines, but only 1000 on the roster, and if there are losses, the ones waiting on the side lines would step up to fill the slots.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 22:38:55


Post by: Insectum7



If the Imperium is a million worlds, that's one marine per world. But are all those worlds in conflict at once?
If 10% of the worlds are actively being fought over, that puts a squad of marines per world. But if only 10% of ALL warzones have Space Marines involved, then a company of Marines can be deployed at each of those battles. Imo it actually starts to make sense at those numbers.

 Gert wrote:
Chapters having 1000 Astartes is the guideline of the Codex Astartes but in reality its probably more around 1250-1500 excluding Aspirants. The Chapter Librarius, Reclusiasm, Forge, and Apothecarium will usually have a large amount of members. Including pilots, drivers, other vehicle crew and fleet officers we can expand even further.
Much of the vehicle crew is also "line" marines, often from the reserve companies.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 22:41:39


Post by: Gert


steelhead177th wrote:
I have always thought it was 1000 ACTIVE marines. There would always be more marines, but only 1000 on the roster, and if there are losses, the ones waiting on the side lines would step up to fill the slots.

Thats an interesting idea.
A Chapter might have 1000 Astartes out in the galaxy kicking around then 100 in recovery from battle wounds, another 100 as homeworld guards, maybe another 50 scattered about the defence fleet or on Chapter recruiting worlds.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 22:56:39


Post by: Tawnis


 Insectum7 wrote:

If the Imperium is a million worlds, that's one marine per world. But are all those worlds in conflict at once?
If 10% of the worlds are actively being fought over, that puts a squad of marines per world. But if only 10% of ALL warzones have Space Marines involved, then a company of Marines can be deployed at each of those battles. Imo it actually starts to make sense at those numbers.

 Gert wrote:
Chapters having 1000 Astartes is the guideline of the Codex Astartes but in reality its probably more around 1250-1500 excluding Aspirants. The Chapter Librarius, Reclusiasm, Forge, and Apothecarium will usually have a large amount of members. Including pilots, drivers, other vehicle crew and fleet officers we can expand even further.
Much of the vehicle crew is also "line" marines, often from the reserve companies.


That to me does seem about what they were going for. However, when you deploy a single company off 100 marines to a planetary engagement of 10's of millions, if not more, there is only so much they can functionally do. I mean, as posted earlier by someone, 40k planetary conflicts are laughably small numbers wise, but assuming we were going for realism and the numbers were the correct amount, aside from running a critical spec ops mission here or there, there's not much they would actually be able to do to turn the tide of the war. Even if they could win every battle they fought in, there would be so many going on that it wouldn't make a massive difference and they would eventually be whittled down.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 23:15:43


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


The 1000 marines element was more of a thematic element than a practical one, I think.
It's supposed to give you the idea that the Space Marines are a small and elite force that are supposed to work in conjunction with other forces.

GW was never that good with hard numbers and technical data. I think one one of the major battles (Vraks maybe?) had fewer soldiers than a major WW2 battle.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 23:18:34


Post by: Insectum7


Tawnis wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

If the Imperium is a million worlds, that's one marine per world. But are all those worlds in conflict at once?
If 10% of the worlds are actively being fought over, that puts a squad of marines per world. But if only 10% of ALL warzones have Space Marines involved, then a company of Marines can be deployed at each of those battles. Imo it actually starts to make sense at those numbers.

 Gert wrote:
Chapters having 1000 Astartes is the guideline of the Codex Astartes but in reality its probably more around 1250-1500 excluding Aspirants. The Chapter Librarius, Reclusiasm, Forge, and Apothecarium will usually have a large amount of members. Including pilots, drivers, other vehicle crew and fleet officers we can expand even further.
Much of the vehicle crew is also "line" marines, often from the reserve companies.


That to me does seem about what they were going for. However, when you deploy a single company off 100 marines to a planetary engagement of 10's of millions, if not more, there is only so much they can functionally do. I mean, as posted earlier by someone, 40k planetary conflicts are laughably small numbers wise, but assuming we were going for realism and the numbers were the correct amount, aside from running a critical spec ops mission here or there, there's not much they would actually be able to do to turn the tide of the war. Even if they could win every battle they fought in, there would be so many going on that it wouldn't make a massive difference and they would eventually be whittled down.
You have to remember that they show up with fleet assets on top of their conventional stuff. They're also very good at taking out leadership as well as using oppositional assets. There's a lot of "off table" action that pertains to gaining control of the operational space in order to gain and retain the initiative.
Spoiler:

If air supremacy in the modern world is so incredibly valuable (basically dictating the terms of any conventional land battle) you can imagine what orbital supremacy could mean.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 23:30:03


Post by: Tiennos


The small number of marines wouldn't be a problem if they were always used along other, more numerous imperial forces when it's a large scale conflict (you can say the same things about other elites like knights,by the way). Fighting a war with a hundred guys is ridiculous, but sending those hundred guys to do the critical missions that allow the million grunts to win makes sense.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 23:36:52


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Tiennos wrote:
The small number of marines wouldn't be a problem if they were always used along other, more numerous imperial forces when it's a large scale conflict (you can say the same things about other elites like knights,by the way). Fighting a war with a hundred guys is ridiculous, but sending those hundred guys to do the critical missions that allow the million grunts to win makes sense.


You'd think that would be one of the roles Chapter Serfs; to provide military aid if Marines have to deploy in force but they can't rely on Imperial reinforcements. But apparently they just hang out on the battle barge while marines fight.
It wouldn't be that much of a problem if GW wasn't so damned hellbent on portraying the marines fighting open battles, like on Damnos.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/19 23:43:39


Post by: Gert


Marines should be in open battles but as force multipliers. A platoon of Guardsmen will fight harder knowing a squad of Astartes is with them.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 00:05:24


Post by: Tiennos


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Tiennos wrote:
The small number of marines wouldn't be a problem if they were always used along other, more numerous imperial forces when it's a large scale conflict (you can say the same things about other elites like knights,by the way). Fighting a war with a hundred guys is ridiculous, but sending those hundred guys to do the critical missions that allow the million grunts to win makes sense.


You'd think that would be one of the roles Chapter Serfs; to provide military aid if Marines have to deploy in force but they can't rely on Imperial reinforcements. But apparently they just hang out on the battle barge while marines fight.
It wouldn't be that much of a problem if GW wasn't so damned hellbent on portraying the marines fighting open battles, like on Damnos.
They'd need a LOT of serfs to fight major battles without other support and that'd probably be too much power in one place for the Imperium's liking. But on a smaller scale, having a few thousands non-marine soldiers could definitely free the marines for the really critical stuff. It'd make the disbelief a bit easier to suspend, at least.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 00:07:43


Post by: Jarms48


Lets look at the flipside of why it's ridiculously small. Lets say an average Imperial civilised world rebels and turns traitor, maybe there's some chaos marines involved who was able to propagate a successful cult and launch a successful coup.

This civilized world has a PDF equivalent to 1% of its population. For easier math we'll just say it has a planetary population of 10 billion. That's 100 million PDF soldiers across the entire planet.

What's 1000 marine going to do against that? Even a fraction of that? This is also just a standing army. We haven't even factored in military reserves or conscription.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 02:26:29


Post by: Insectum7


Jarms48 wrote:
Lets look at the flipside of why it's ridiculously small. Lets say an average Imperial civilised world rebels and turns traitor, maybe there's some chaos marines involved who was able to propagate a successful cult and launch a successful coup.

This civilized world has a PDF equivalent to 1% of its population. For easier math we'll just say it has a planetary population of 10 billion. That's 100 million PDF soldiers across the entire planet.

What's 1000 marine going to do against that? Even a fraction of that? This is also just a standing army. We haven't even factored in military reserves or conscription.
History is full of situations where smaller forces defeat much, much larger forces through various means. Or Imagine 10,000 roman legionairres vs 5 A-10s that have unending logistical support and a totally clear airspace. Numbers can mean basically nothing with assymetrical technologies in play. Each Strike Cruiser carries Exterminatus weapons if they really want to use them. Nukes, virus bombs and probably all sorts of intermediate munitions would probably be available.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 02:57:56


Post by: RaptorusRex


Jarms48 wrote:
Lets look at the flipside of why it's ridiculously small. Lets say an average Imperial civilised world rebels and turns traitor, maybe there's some chaos marines involved who was able to propagate a successful cult and launch a successful coup.

This civilized world has a PDF equivalent to 1% of its population. For easier math we'll just say it has a planetary population of 10 billion. That's 100 million PDF soldiers across the entire planet.

What's 1000 marine going to do against that? Even a fraction of that? This is also just a standing army. We haven't even factored in military reserves or conscription.


A disciplined, even fanatical army can rout a much larger force. For example, Saladin's army at Montgisard was routed by a smaller force of Crusaders, owing to the discipline and willingness to expose oneself to danger of the Templars. They'd frequently form up their squadrons of mounted cavalry into tightly packed formations and charge straight into the foe.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 03:11:30


Post by: Hellebore


Small forces aren't an issue of you've got unlimited recruitment lines.

The way a chapter is supposed to work is that they've actually only got 500 frontline marines, making it even smaller.

The 6-9 companies are reserve companies that generally resupply the battle companies as they lose men.

and the 10th feeds into the 6-9. and the recruitment worlds feed into the 10th.

vehicles are generally piloted by marines from the 6-9 afaik.


So when a company is deployed to a warzone, they would come accompanied by 10th company scouts and 6-9 company vehicle crew and reserves.


Space marine rarity is a false economy - even if only 1 in a million humans can become a marine, they're recruiting from trillions.

if the imperium numbers 10 trillion, then at any one time they'd have 10 million people suitable for recruitment. 10 trillion is about 10 million people per planet the imperium controls, so you could argue they have more than that. In which case the potential recruit pool just gets bigger.

The battle companies are the tiny, diamond hard tip of a very deep and wide spear - actually it's probably more apt to describe it as a water jet with the imperium as the reservoir tank and the marine conversion process as the nozzle that concentrates it...



Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 05:49:28


Post by: Altima


Do Space Marines sit on aspirants? I was under the impression that Space Marines made more of themselves as often as they were able and attrition kept their numbers relatively stable. Obviously within the context of their own initiation rites.

I would imagine Chapters that swell too large have their number spun off into a successor Chapter or may have their tithes raised.

There was some old lore that also indicated that if the Inquisition suspected a Chapter were playing with its numbers that they would get directly involved by eliminating or capturing small assets to interrogate/dissect to look for corruption (looking at you, Black Templar).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jarms48 wrote:
Lets look at the flipside of why it's ridiculously small. Lets say an average Imperial civilised world rebels and turns traitor, maybe there's some chaos marines involved who was able to propagate a successful cult and launch a successful coup.

This civilized world has a PDF equivalent to 1% of its population. For easier math we'll just say it has a planetary population of 10 billion. That's 100 million PDF soldiers across the entire planet.

What's 1000 marine going to do against that? Even a fraction of that? This is also just a standing army. We haven't even factored in military reserves or conscription.


I think you're overestimating how easy it is to effectively neutralize a modern society if you don't have to worry about political fallout (and even regular fallout if you're a marine) or military retaliation. Many Imperial worlds can't even feed themselves.

Using Earth as an example, most countries would be brought to their knees with something as simple as strikes against power generating stations. Without electricity, most of the population would be thrown into chaos. After that, surgical strikes on dams and levees to create disasters would further destabilize various regions. Sow enough disarray and Space Marines (or any invading force) wouldn't even have to fight the bulk of the population--they'd be too busy tearing into each other for basic resources. And this is on Earth, where humans can survive reasonably well on the majority of the landmass--other Imperial worlds might have even greater challenges, like air purifiers, living in domes, restricted living land mass, naturally undrinkable water, extremely hostile wild life, etc.

In this scenario, it wouldn't be the marines' job to fight each and every traitor. They would be there to neutralize the rebels as a serious threat, which usually includes decapitation strikes. It would then be up to the Imperial Guard to pacify the world (and potentially the Ecclesiarchy/Inquisition depending on the nature of the rebellion).

So yes, I can see a few squads of marines aboard a strike cruiser being able to neuter a world in a relatively short time frame, mostly through superior training and materially outclassing their opponents at the tactical level. Which is sorta the point of the astartes. It's only when they start fighting pitched battles or against opponents that are their equal or betters that they start seeing massive amounts of casualties.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 08:26:41


Post by: Niiai


One thing I have never understood is is there more then 1 unit of 1000 ultramarine? I always thought so from a practical standpoint. And they would all be named ultra marines but be separate.

Besides that there are some who do break the 1000 rule. Astral Claws (see badab war.) Black Templars will go down to 1000 once they 'end their crusade'. And space wolves are subdivided into the 13 clans but are well over 1000 if you combine them. (Also, they used to not beeing able to settle on another planet.) If I recall correct.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 08:30:29


Post by: Insectum7


 Niiai wrote:
One thing I have never understood is is there more then 1 unit of 1000 ultramarine?
Just the one Chapter. It's possible that for periods when larger portions of the chapter are away from the homeworld that recruitment might swell to a number above 1000, but overall the chapter would be roughly 1000 marines, not including the supernumaries.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 09:15:07


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


1 0? Make that 3 if you ask me.
1Billion Marines to defend 1 Million worlds. Still a very small number, since it's merely 1000 Marines for every planet, but that way every story where Marines die in droves like on the tabletop is more believable. Fluff also shows Marines in trench warfare again and again. Especially in the Great Crusade. You want to conquer whole planets/systems / sectors in no time, getting stuck in warfare on the ground and endless sieges with a mere 200K Marines per Legion, often less? Make that 200 Million and add at least a Billion Guardsmen as support and we're talking. Anything else is stretching my disbelieve and immersion more than... a female Marine ever would


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 09:18:06


Post by: Slipspace


One problem is the corporate approach seems to be to put SM front-and-centre on their own in a lot of stories whereas in all likelihood they'd fight alongside other Imperial forces in almost all cases.

Even if we assume they're fighting on their own it really doesn't take much to cripple an enemy and put down a rebellion. That's especially true when you have the ability to teleport wherever you need to be, or orbital drop at a moment's notice. I suspect 100 Marines could probably reduce the key infrastructure of a country the size of the USA to rubble in about an hour with a series of co-ordinated strikes at power plants, water treatment plants and government buildings. Not to mention the ease with which they often achieve orbital and aerial superiority.

It gets a bit more unlikely when they're up against technologically equal or superior opposition but even then the MO would remain the same. SM should very rarely fight battles on anything but their own terms.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 09:19:37


Post by: Da Boss


I've always imagined that the Marines don't fight wars on their own very often, they are almost always used in conjunction with other more numerous forces. They're shock troops attacking the most dangerous enemy forces or fighting in the extreme environments like in the void of space or on planets with extremely dangerous conditions.

If an entire engagement was being fought in such an environment I could see it being all Marines but I'd say the Imperium is in most cases interested in defending and colonizing habitable worlds so those engagements on space hulks or airless moons would be relatively small and limited, and the enemies they'd be fighting would have fairly small forces too.

That said I also like the idea that maybe 1000 marines is in universe propaganda and that most chapters have a lot more members than that. Even if the Ultramarines stick to the 1000 marine rule, they've got so many successors that they are really closely tied to that they can realistically field many times that number. And other famous chapters like the Space Wolves or Black Templars are really cagey about their numbers and probably have more than 1000 marines.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 09:43:24


Post by: kirotheavenger


The 1000 marines is meant to refer specifically to the combined nominal strength of the 10 companies. So chapter command assets, armoured assets/crews, perhaps even off-book reserves are all in excess of this number (and/or provide a buffer to sustain that number in spite of casualties).

I do also agree that Space Marines very rarely deploy in strength alone, they primarily act in smaller elements, no more than a company, to achieve specific targetted objectives.
They might raid and destroy the enemy planetary command post, or a critical logistics hub, or ICBM site. Think modern commandos/special forces but like x10.

All of this will act as a great force multiplier to the Imperial Guard who actually fight on the bleeding edge of the combat zone. Sometimes Space Marines might be used as the tip of the spear in a frontal assault, or deploy directly behind the avenue of a frontal assault to secure objectives to be relieved by following Imperial Guard.

The narrative just focuses on Space Marines because they're cooler and more popular.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 09:52:42


Post by: Da Boss


I often wonder about the logistics of Space Marines. Like their weapons require solid ammunition unlike the Imperial Guard who can recharge their lasguns by just heating the powerpacks in a fire. Their armour requires maintenance and repairs after engagements or it will become useless and actually end up a liability - damaged or depowered armour would limit movements and make marines more vulnerable to attack. The power packs on the marine's backs as far as I know need to be charged properly and don't work like the lasgun ones.

So I can't imagine Space Marines deploying for a really long time in a warzone without logistical support, which is weird because they're often written that way. Seems to me they'd do their strikes and then retreat to rearm and restock before striking again, while the guard is fighting continuously in a manner that doesn't require too much in the way of resupply.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 10:06:17


Post by: kirotheavenger


I think it's swings and round abouts.

Astartes have the benefit that they can continue fighting at peak efficiency as individuals for days on end. They don't need sleep and their armour contains all the food they need.

But after a few days, they begin to run low on solid ammunition (although that's easy to drop-pod or even teleport in) and maybe their armour begins to run out of battery.In short, as a unit Space Marines have a limited front-line effectiveness measured in days.
This makes them great at quick insurgency operations but a poor choice for massed frontline service.

Imperial Guard on the other hand individually can only sustain a fight for perhaps a day at most before they need a reprieve for food and sleep.
They also may need to be rotated back every few weeks or months to keep the men fresh.
But as a unit/organisation they can sustain a fight almost indefinitely as the burden on ammo supply is greatly reduced and due to the bulk of manpower rotating reserves is possible.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 10:40:49


Post by: Slipspace


It doesn't seem to be in the current Codex but previous books did mention the power supply for Power Armour was basically a small nuclear reactor, so I suspect longevity isn't an issue. Damage probably is, but it seems like basic armour repair is part of their training. The ammunition problem is very real though, especially given how little extra ammo SM are generally depicted with. The sheer size of an armoured SM probably makes using captured weapons impractical as well.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 10:43:22


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Slipspace wrote:
It doesn't seem to be in the current Codex but previous books did mention the power supply for Power Armour was basically a small nuclear reactor, so I suspect longevity isn't an issue. Damage probably is, but it seems like basic armour repair is part of their training. The ammunition problem is very real though, especially given how little extra ammo SM are generally depicted with. The sheer size of an armoured SM probably makes using captured weapons impractical as well.


That's probably why they are trained in melee and have swords. You don't see Guardsmen being trained and armed like that.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 10:44:35


Post by: Da Boss


Nuclear reactor makes sense. Though it would be pretty dangerous if breached due to radiation leakage. You'd definitely need some sort of incredible power source to make armour like that viable.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 10:45:03


Post by: kirotheavenger


I don't think the limited extra ammo is actually a concern in reality. I imagine 40k artwork to be like medieval artwork, agrandising the participants.
How many water bottles do you see on a Roman Legionary painting? None, which can't be right if they're fighting in the plains of west africa!


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 11:08:55


Post by: CorwinB


There are several times in the fluff (at least in the HH series) where Astartes running out of bolter ammo is mentioned to show the intensity and/or duration of a specific engagement, so that's definitely a concern. IIRC, resupply by specialized ammo Drop Pods is also mentioned in some of the more recent books (post-Primaris).


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 13:10:37


Post by: The Phazer


They absolutely should have quietly put an extra zero on it with Guilliman's return, and said that most chapters had been ignoring it all along.

Logistically it just makes no sense that the likes of the founder chapters continue to exist when a full 10- 20% of their strength might get wiped out or be lost for centuries just by travelling around. Making chapters 10,000 strong still makes Marines vanishingly rare in the scope of the wider Imperium, but a bit more plausible that they can send 150 marines here and there where they might get wiped out but would still be able to man their homeworld etc.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 13:13:21


Post by: Da Boss


Yeah 10,000 marines per chapter would still be a drop in the bucket. It's either that or there should be many more chapters and less representation for the founding legions in the fiction etc.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 14:43:19


Post by: Tawnis


Altima wrote:
I think you're overestimating how easy it is to effectively neutralize a modern society if you don't have to worry about political fallout (and even regular fallout if you're a marine) or military retaliation. Many Imperial worlds can't even feed themselves.

Using Earth as an example, most countries would be brought to their knees with something as simple as strikes against power generating stations. Without electricity, most of the population would be thrown into chaos. After that, surgical strikes on dams and levees to create disasters would further destabilize various regions. Sow enough disarray and Space Marines (or any invading force) wouldn't even have to fight the bulk of the population--they'd be too busy tearing into each other for basic resources. And this is on Earth, where humans can survive reasonably well on the majority of the landmass--other Imperial worlds might have even greater challenges, like air purifiers, living in domes, restricted living land mass, naturally undrinkable water, extremely hostile wild life, etc.

In this scenario, it wouldn't be the marines' job to fight each and every traitor. They would be there to neutralize the rebels as a serious threat, which usually includes decapitation strikes. It would then be up to the Imperial Guard to pacify the world (and potentially the Ecclesiarchy/Inquisition depending on the nature of the rebellion).

So yes, I can see a few squads of marines aboard a strike cruiser being able to neuter a world in a relatively short time frame, mostly through superior training and materially outclassing their opponents at the tactical level. Which is sorta the point of the astartes. It's only when they start fighting pitched battles or against opponents that are their equal or betters that they start seeing massive amounts of casualties.


You're right, but you're also thinking of it in human terms. If you look at Imperial Worlds that have fallen to Chaos (like in the Gaunt's Ghosts series) the humans already live in squalor and filth, barely eking out an existence, there are no resources to cut off to them. They fight because they've gone insane and the creatures of the warp sure don't need things like damns or levees. There could still be critical strikes against things like power plants / warp portals, but the important ones will all be heavily guarded by Deamons and Traitor Marines, putting them on equal footing. So it would be a great strategy for Chaos to use against Imperial worlds, but not so much the other way around. If you send SM's in to crush a rebellion, are you really going to win the people back by cutting them off from every natural resource? You'll just drive more to the rebel's cause and make the job of the liberation forces harder.

The Orks just straight up wouldn't care as they basically survive on war over any natural recourse. The Dark Eldar don't have any firm holdings. The Tyranids just eat everything and move on. The Necrons are too numerous and keep coming back. Unless you destroy them with a first strike, you're toast in a war of attrition (see both Damnos conflicts as reference to both situations). The Eldar are spacebound and it's more about the fleet fight than any real boarding action unless it's absurdly massive. The only race this probably would work against would be the Tau as they actually more-less care about their people and live decent lives outside the conflict. Even then, if you're being chased around by hundreds of Tau battlesuits, you're not going to get very far, even as a SM.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 15:49:29


Post by: RaptorusRex


Even against traitors, the modern Space Marine has plenty to fall back upon. He has specialized bolter rounds developed specifically for the purpose of killing fellow Astartes, the support of apparatuses and institutions specifically developed to battle Chaos like the Inquisition, and plentiful war-graith like plasma guns that are superlatively effective against power armor.

I simply don't buy the idea that Legion traitors' experience makes them undefeatable gods of war. It doesn't work like XP in a video game. It makes them harder to get the drop on and makes them fight smarter. It doesn't lend them any innate qualities that make them superior to the Line Marine of a codex chapter.

Space Marines, especially Codex Chapters, operate on the collected wisdom of thousands of years. They have the Codex Astartes to look towards for guidance on such matters of war. They've fought traitors before and they've come out on the other side.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 16:17:02


Post by: moreorless


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I think the 1000 Chapters of a 1000 marines was just something that sounded cool at the time of RT



Also the earlier days of 40K were based more on skirmish like battles so SM as more like special forces.

I suspect had the lore been devolped more recently they might well have gone with 10K per chapter personally, significantly smaller than most of the HH era legions but large enough that they can fight a conflict single handed if need be and can have the diversity of troops/equipment we now see.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 16:18:30


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


I think 1000's fine.

As mentioned by Insectum, while there's still less than 1 Astartes per world, not every world is in conflict, and not every conflict warrants the appearance of Space Marines - coupled with how Space Marines are used as a force multiplier, I think that they're fine.

Secondly, I generally just don't take the timeline in the OP at face value, with all those events taking place in 999.M41. I would chalk that up to in-universe bad date-keeping, and out-of-universe GW just pushing everything to being 999.M41.

Thirdly, casualties doesn't mean fatalities, and I tend to regard one of the Space Marines' biggest assets being their recovery and readiness to return to battle. So, many of the "high casualties" reports I see as "yeah, they had to sit out on a battle, but they were back for the next one".

Regarding actual Chapter sizes, I don't think they're much bigger than 1200, and certainly not some of the "they have thousands of reserve aspirants!" - but that's just me. I'm happy suspending my disbelief that 1000 (plus maybe a hundred or so officers, drivers, command squads, etc) are necessary.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 16:23:41


Post by: mrFickle


Tawnis wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
It makes sense when too many of these guys under one leader can divide your empire in half.

Space marine chapters are like special forces, small specialised forces for getting certain jobs done. The bulk of the fighting in 40K is done by the army and the navy.



I meant adding a 0 to the HH numbers of the Legions too, so it would proportionally still be the same as it is now.

They are always called that, and from the numbers, that seems like how they should be used. However, what we often see of them is not in that type of roll. Like I said in my original post, I noted that as they exist now Spec Ops / Assassination / Support roles would be all they could really do. However they are often running large worldwide campaigns with little or even no support. Only the largest system wide engagements show them backed by what seems like a respectable fighting force. I think it's just to make them look more badass in the lore, it just practically doesn't make sense.


We have to factor in bad writing unfortunately. Yeah 1000 marines taking non a whole planet of monsters is madness, a bit different if the aliens attack a SM home world which will have other defences.

But these guys are the John Cena of 40K, it’s gets boring seeing them constantly overcome unreasonable odds


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 16:28:20


Post by: Gert


How dare you besmirch the Great Unseen One!


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 16:29:33


Post by: mrFickle


 Gert wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
It makes sense when too many of these guys under one leader can divide your empire in half.

Space marine chapters are like special forces, small specialised forces for getting certain jobs done. The bulk of the fighting in 40K is done by the army and the navy.


To be fair, the Legions weren't special forces during the Crusade and Heresy. They were common enough. Plus they were divided into Expeditionary Fleets with Army, Mechanicum and sometimes Titan or Knight support as well. So if half the Legions go to Horus, then so do roughly half the Expeditionary Fleets.

The process for creating Astartes in the Crusade/Heresy was also superior to the modern equivalent and during the closing stages of the Heresy lots of corners were cut on both sides to rapidly increase their numbers of Astartes, leading to things like the World Eaters Inductii or Raven Guard Raptors.


Sure but pre Hersey they existed to rapidly re/conquer the galaxy and exterminate whole species of aliens. There were also part of expedition forces that contained AM, Ad Mech, Titans etc.

And after the Conquest of the galaxy the SM were due for termination themselves because that much firepower with no where to point it the emperor knew it would eventually point back at him


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 17:43:08


Post by: Tawnis


 RaptorusRex wrote:
Even against traitors, the modern Space Marine has plenty to fall back upon. He has specialized bolter rounds developed specifically for the purpose of killing fellow Astartes, the support of apparatuses and institutions specifically developed to battle Chaos like the Inquisition, and plentiful war-graith like plasma guns that are superlatively effective against power armor.

I simply don't buy the idea that Legion traitors' experience makes them undefeatable gods of war. It doesn't work like XP in a video game. It makes them harder to get the drop on and makes them fight smarter. It doesn't lend them any innate qualities that make them superior to the Line Marine of a codex chapter.

Space Marines, especially Codex Chapters, operate on the collected wisdom of thousands of years. They have the Codex Astartes to look towards for guidance on such matters of war. They've fought traitors before and they've come out on the other side.


That's true. In a 1v1, I'd actually typically favor a loyalist marine because they (especially now) are equipped with better weapons, armor, and support on average. That being said, the warp powers and Deamons that aid Chaos can balance that out, so I tend to treat them as evenly matched.



Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 17:47:10


Post by: Vatsetis


If 40K had realistic logistics every single SM could possible need a supply tail of 100 or even 1000 people to support his active deployment onto the battlefield.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 17:49:30


Post by: Tawnis


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I think 1000's fine.

As mentioned by Insectum, while there's still less than 1 Astartes per world, not every world is in conflict, and not every conflict warrants the appearance of Space Marines - coupled with how Space Marines are used as a force multiplier, I think that they're fine.

Secondly, I generally just don't take the timeline in the OP at face value, with all those events taking place in 999.M41. I would chalk that up to in-universe bad date-keeping, and out-of-universe GW just pushing everything to being 999.M41.

Thirdly, casualties doesn't mean fatalities, and I tend to regard one of the Space Marines' biggest assets being their recovery and readiness to return to battle. So, many of the "high casualties" reports I see as "yeah, they had to sit out on a battle, but they were back for the next one".

Regarding actual Chapter sizes, I don't think they're much bigger than 1200, and certainly not some of the "they have thousands of reserve aspirants!" - but that's just me. I'm happy suspending my disbelief that 1000 (plus maybe a hundred or so officers, drivers, command squads, etc) are necessary.


Totally agree on the first two, they are supposed to be rather rare even though they are so prominently featured in the lore because that's what sells. And yeah, the timeline is a best guess on the best of days.

That being said, for the third: While you are right in some cases, as I noted previously, some cases they are confirmed dead. For instance on Damnos, it is confirmed that only 40 marines escaped the planet, any that survived but were left behind would have been quickly dispatched by the Necrons. In the Farsight cases I mentioned, they are very clearly dead as well. You also have to consider, these are just the conflicts that we have been told stories about. Astartes are always at war, there would be plenty of skirmishes and battles that aren't universe changing in relevance that we would have no idea about, but would still be eating away at their standing forces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vatsetis wrote:
If 40K had realistic logistics every single SM could possible need a supply tail of 100 or even 1000 people to support his active deployment onto the battlefield.


The thing is, while we're not really shown that since it's not exciting, they kind of do.

Their ships have hundreds if not thousands of chapter serfs to maintain their equipment and keep them in fighting shape, so long as they have a supply line to orbit. They don't do any fighting for whatever reason though (unless boarded or some such). So while they have fine logistical support in optimal conditions, they still lack in terms of tactical support.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 17:58:23


Post by: Gert


Chapter serfs are often well trained individuals that are vital to a Chapter. It's serfs or servants that maintain their Astartes gear and equipment in many cases which means they'll need to have fairly advanced technical knowledge of Astartes gear like Bolters or Power Armour. You don't waste valuable trained individuals when you know there will be Guard or PDF to soak up bullets.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 18:33:04


Post by: mrFickle


I would like to read a story from the point of view of a serf in a SM chapter. I bet they are as indoctrinated as the space marines but with very little knowledge of anything beyond their task and I bet it’s a hard life, there must be a good story in there somewhere


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 18:52:22


Post by: Gert


Spear of the Emperor does that very thing.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 18:54:48


Post by: mrFickle


 Gert wrote:
Spear of the Emperor does that very thing.


Thansk


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 18:55:19


Post by: Tawnis


mrFickle wrote:
I would like to read a story from the point of view of a serf in a SM chapter. I bet they are as indoctrinated as the space marines but with very little knowledge of anything beyond their task and I bet it’s a hard life, there must be a good story in there somewhere


I thought that they were aspirants who couldn't make the cut to be full Space Marines. I remember hearing that somewhere.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/20 19:04:17


Post by: Gert


Some are. Serfs can be locals who volunteer their services, failed Aspirants given a chance to serve the Chapter, or slaves like with the Carcharadons. Serfs can even be entire families dedicated to serving the Chapter, which is a concept I found quite interesting. Most Chapters treat their Serfs well and it's quite rare that Serfs are regarded as scum or lesser beings, in a negative way I mean.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/21 05:46:23


Post by: mrFickle


Tawnis wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I would like to read a story from the point of view of a serf in a SM chapter. I bet they are as indoctrinated as the space marines but with very little knowledge of anything beyond their task and I bet it’s a hard life, there must be a good story in there somewhere


I thought that they were aspirants who couldn't make the cut to be full Space Marines. I remember hearing that somewhere.


I thought the selection process for most SM chapters were so tough you basically qualified if you didn’t die, I.e there are no failed aspirants


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/21 05:48:16


Post by: AnomanderRake


Tawnis wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I would like to read a story from the point of view of a serf in a SM chapter. I bet they are as indoctrinated as the space marines but with very little knowledge of anything beyond their task and I bet it’s a hard life, there must be a good story in there somewhere


I thought that they were aspirants who couldn't make the cut to be full Space Marines. I remember hearing that somewhere.


It depends on the Chapter.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/21 09:11:39


Post by: Guardling


I thought that was part of the point of successor chapters, the main one gets too big so some marines form a new one.
Main chapter has to many losses, and some guys who used to run with them come back to bring the numbers up quickly.
Pretty sure there was a chapter in the fluff (badab?) That had the marines split up and sent out to different parent and successor chapters...


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/21 10:45:34


Post by: Gert


Successor Chapters can donate gene-seed and Aspirants to their parent Chapter, we see it with the Chapters of the Blood when the Blood Angels take serious losses after numerous bad campaigns.
As for Badab, the Astral Claws hid the survivors of the Tiger Claws within their ranks and when Huron was refused his Maelstrom Founding he began hording gene-seed and making the Astral Claws larger anyway. When the Badab War began, the Astral Claws had basically reached double Chapter strength.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/21 11:18:58


Post by: A.T.


It's a matter of limiting the influence any one chapter master has.

If the Imperium needs to commit 10,000 space marines they just send ten chapters.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/21 11:49:04


Post by: Gert


^Bingo.
Horus commanded half the Imperium when he turned. If a Chapter Master could call on two thousand Astartes plus another thousand Auxiliary forces, that would represent a serious threat. It was outright shown during Badab what would happen in such a situation, the Astral Claws never seemed to lose strength and the thousands of mortal soldiers they had meant they could leave the majority of Astartes free to cause serious damage to the Imperial forces.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/21 14:26:48


Post by: Tiennos


 Gert wrote:
^Bingo.
Horus commanded half the Imperium when he turned. If a Chapter Master could call on two thousand Astartes plus another thousand Auxiliary forces, that would represent a serious threat. It was outright shown during Badab what would happen in such a situation, the Astral Claws never seemed to lose strength and the thousands of mortal soldiers they had meant they could leave the majority of Astartes free to cause serious damage to the Imperial forces.
It's not just a matter of command structure, though. It's not like Horus gave everyone the official order to be traitors and they all agreed. He managed to recruit half the primarchs to his side and failed with the other half. If he'd been more or less convincing, the heresy would have gone very differently.

Sure, the armies of the Imperium are very fragmented in 40k, but it doesn't change things all that much. To get a million space marines divided into chapters on you side, you need to make a thousand chapter masters loyal to you. To get a hypothetical legion of a million soldiers to obey you, you need to get the command structure on your side. That's potentially just as many officers as those chapter masters. In the end it's the same problem: it's not about how the troops are organized, it's about whether someone's charismatic, cunning, ruthless and/or manipulative enough to pull it off.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/21 14:31:41


Post by: Tawnis


A.T. wrote:
It's a matter of limiting the influence any one chapter master has.

If the Imperium needs to commit 10,000 space marines they just send ten chapters.


The thing is, most of the actions taken by a company of 100 in the lore, seem like they would actually require many more to be practical, like 1000, especially given the losses many are shown as sustaining.

If they had a constant supply of new marines, then they could afford to do so, however only the greatest conflicts see them deployed in those numbers, like Cadia, Armegeddon, ect. Though in conflicts of that scale, massive planetary invasions with billions upon billions fighting, even 10,000 space marines could only do so much. 100,000, maybe that could tip the scale.

As I said earlier, it would be increasing the numbers of the HH by a 0 as well, meaning that the proportional influence the chapter master would hold would be the same. It would also feel like they do have the power to conquer a world or even a system on their authority (as has been seen in the lore both to good and ill effect) rather than realistically only being a support force. (Which would be fine if that was how they were portrayed in the lore, but that's not the case.)


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/21 20:30:20


Post by: mrFickle


 Tiennos wrote:
 Gert wrote:
^Bingo.
Horus commanded half the Imperium when he turned. If a Chapter Master could call on two thousand Astartes plus another thousand Auxiliary forces, that would represent a serious threat. It was outright shown during Badab what would happen in such a situation, the Astral Claws never seemed to lose strength and the thousands of mortal soldiers they had meant they could leave the majority of Astartes free to cause serious damage to the Imperial forces.
It's not just a matter of command structure, though. It's not like Horus gave everyone the official order to be traitors and they all agreed. He managed to recruit half the primarchs to his side and failed with the other half. If he'd been more or less convincing, the heresy would have gone very differently.

Sure, the armies of the Imperium are very fragmented in 40k, but it doesn't change things all that much. To get a million space marines divided into chapters on you side, you need to make a thousand chapter masters loyal to you. To get a hypothetical legion of a million soldiers to obey you, you need to get the command structure on your side. That's potentially just as many officers as those chapter masters. In the end it's the same problem: it's not about how the troops are organized, it's about whether someone's charismatic, cunning, ruthless and/or manipulative enough to pull it off.


And space marine chapters aren’t under the direct military control of the imperium, it’s more a sort of pact or treaty. Yes chapter will accept order but they also might say that they are too busy doing something else to undertake these orders. It’s all to do with their different view of the emperor, many chapter do not worship him as a god like the humans do and are not under the cosh of the religious order. Of course a chapter can’t push it too far as they will be declared traitors.

They don’t sit around waiting for orders either, they undertake their own missions.

I believe the dark angels regularly do not play ball with the imperium as they are undertaking their own agenda.

So having them fragmented with their own priorities would make it harder to organise 1m marines made up of lots of chapter to do bad things


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ironically this federation of power and the lack of progress it causes is only really pointed out for CSM and their warbands.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 02:14:55


Post by: BrianDavion


mrFickle wrote:
 Tiennos wrote:
 Gert wrote:
^Bingo.
Horus commanded half the Imperium when he turned. If a Chapter Master could call on two thousand Astartes plus another thousand Auxiliary forces, that would represent a serious threat. It was outright shown during Badab what would happen in such a situation, the Astral Claws never seemed to lose strength and the thousands of mortal soldiers they had meant they could leave the majority of Astartes free to cause serious damage to the Imperial forces.
It's not just a matter of command structure, though. It's not like Horus gave everyone the official order to be traitors and they all agreed. He managed to recruit half the primarchs to his side and failed with the other half. If he'd been more or less convincing, the heresy would have gone very differently.

Sure, the armies of the Imperium are very fragmented in 40k, but it doesn't change things all that much. To get a million space marines divided into chapters on you side, you need to make a thousand chapter masters loyal to you. To get a hypothetical legion of a million soldiers to obey you, you need to get the command structure on your side. That's potentially just as many officers as those chapter masters. In the end it's the same problem: it's not about how the troops are organized, it's about whether someone's charismatic, cunning, ruthless and/or manipulative enough to pull it off.


And space marine chapters aren’t under the direct military control of the imperium, it’s more a sort of pact or treaty. Yes chapter will accept order but they also might say that they are too busy doing something else to undertake these orders. It’s all to do with their different view of the emperor, many chapter do not worship him as a god like the humans do and are not under the cosh of the religious order. Of course a chapter can’t push it too far as they will be declared traitors.

They don’t sit around waiting for orders either, they undertake their own missions.

I believe the dark angels regularly do not play ball with the imperium as they are undertaking their own agenda.

So having them fragmented with their own priorities would make it harder to organise 1m marines made up of lots of chapter to do bad things


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ironically this federation of power and the lack of progress it causes is only really pointed out for CSM and their warbands.


I mean on a l;ogistics side of things it's a safe bet, given who orginized it, the second founding didn't just see the new space marine chapters thrown to the winds and the wolves supply wise the way CSMs where.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 02:28:17


Post by: Voss


A.T. wrote:
It's a matter of limiting the influence any one chapter master has.

If the Imperium needs to commit 10,000 space marines they just send ten chapters.


And for all sorts of reasons, that's impractical. Communication, transportation, other commitments. Chapters tend to have companies, demi-companies or individual squads scattered all over the place, and they don't deploy in any fashion that makes sense to modern logistics.
Getting everyone from even one chapter in place for whatever conflict is unlikely to impossible. The multi-chapter conflicts are impressive for how rare they are more than the scale.


Also, 40k numbers are basically nonsense all the time.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 02:47:39


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


While I sure it sounded cool at the pub when they wrote it, the Imperium having 1000 Chapters each of 1000 Marines makes about as much sense as a soup sandwich. They have terrible sense of scale, but I think it works if you zoom it really tight on Brother Sergeant Badassus and his squad fighting against the backdrop of a galaxy at war. You can stay at the micro-tactical (Sgt Badassaus) or macro-strategic (Gulliman) and have an engaging read, but when you go to the middle layers it kinda falls apart.



Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 07:58:51


Post by: kirotheavenger


I view the fragmented chapters as emblematic of 40k's fascist parody background.
This sort of fragmented power is quite typical of authoritarian regimes, the Nazis famously were all at each other's throats for favour, and particularly when it came to the land army they had multiple separate organisations all doing nominally the same thing, with divisions within those given radically different priority over recruits and equipment.

40k follows that but turns it up a notch, the justification is even essentially the same, don't want to give anyone too much power! Except the supreme leader, obviously.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 08:09:26


Post by: godking


Tawnis wrote:
Okay, so this has been rattling around in my brain for a long time now and I wanted to get both get it off my chest and hear what everyone else thinks about it. Basically, I think that even with their Superhuman Chad Marine status, 1000 members for a chapter is just too small for a universe like 40k.

So, lets take the boys in blue as an example of my point here since there is a lot of lore to find on them. I'm going to just use the last 25 years of M41 here as a sample.

974: Fall of Damnos: Ultramarines 2nd Company suffered heavy casualties from Necron forces, loosing approximately 60 battle brothers, as well as multiple tanks and Dreadnoughts.
982: Gurun System Conflict: Ultramarines 4th Company shot down an Ork Warship over the world of Womo, destroying the Orks and slaying the Warboss at the cost of 17 battle brothers and Captain Tiy Newman.
984: Burbeck’s Asteroid: Marneus Calgar led an unspecified number of Ultramarines against the Ork Warlord Shaggro Worldwrecker’s asteroid fortress. Casualties were high as well as losing the entire complement of Dreadnoughts to a massive melta trap. Though the Ultramarines did finally carry the day after Calgar committed his aerial reserves to the fight, it is stated that they came very close to defeat.
992: Ichar IV: The start of the second Tyranic War, Calgar led an undisclosed, but large number of Ultramarines, to aid the Scythes of the Emperor and Lementors against Hive Fleet Kraken. Losses confirmed as very heavy for the Ultramarines and near total for the other two chapters.
997: Zeist Campaign: Ultramarines 2nd Company strikes against the well defended Tau in the Ziest sector. Though successful, they are the only SM forces in the are until some time later when nearly a dozen other chapters arrive to push the Tau out of the system. Casualties’ unknown.
999: Battle of Tarsis Ultra: Ultramarines 4th Company suffered heavy losses against the Tyranids, then potentially wiped out when the world was destroyed soon after by the Iron warriors Warsmith Honsu, but total loss is unconfirmed.
999: Second Battle for Damnos: Calgar leads a large force of Ultramarines, including Sicarius’ 2nd Company back to Damnos. They suffer heavy casualties but cleanse the world of Necrons.
999: Invasion of Ultramar: Warsmith Honsu invades Ultramar, the defence costing the lives of 397 Battle Brothers across all companies. (Unknown if this includes the losses from Tarsis Ultra or not.)
999: Liberation of Lagan: Ultramarines 3rd Company liberate Lagan from Tau forces. Casualties’ unknown.
999: 13th Black Crusade: Ultramarines Honour Company (Comprised from members of successor chapters as well, seems outside the 1000 Codex required. Odd for Ultramarines.) Participated in many major engagements, though combat strength and losses are unknown.
999: Siege of Fenris: Ultramarines 6th company arrives alongside massive relief force to aid the Space Wolves. Losses unknown.
999: The Ultramar Campaign: The system is besieged by yet more Chaos forces; losses are high before Guilliman is resurrected and turns the tide of battle.

The final year of the timeline seems a bit muddled, Warp travel and such will do that. It is also clear that it was an unprecedented year of conflict, but even so, the galaxy is always at war and the Space Marines, always fighting. I know that they get Primaris reinforcements and all after this, but I’m using this as an example of any given point it time from the end of the HH to the current.

How can they possibly keep up recruitment to stem the losses that are seen here, or that would be seen across any of the Space Marine chapters if we had the full knowledge of every conflict every company fought in over this period? The process of creating a Space Marine is not an easy one, taking 5-10 years minimum. Not to mention transport time to find wherever the company currently is fighting to delivery reinforcing troops. On top of that, to be Codex complaint, they can’t surpass 100 battle brothers per Company, so by the time reinforcements arrive, they will likely have sustained more losses in the interim even if you disregard the delay in actually creating a Space Marine.

On top of all that, regardless of how strong an individual Space Marine is, they can’t be everywhere, and 100 battle brothers can only do so much, even if they were somehow at full combat strength. They would need to be used almost exclusively in support of other Imperial units in order to actually accomplish anything beyond Assassination and/or Spec Ops deployments. Yet we often see them campaigning on their own, or with minimal support except in the largest of conflicts.

For example, I’m reading Farsight, Crisis of Faith right now and the Scar Lords chapter loses a full combat squad to a single Broadside, then another to a single XV8 Iridium Crisis suit and 2 sniper drones. There’s also the short story Kayoun where a single pathfinder and about a dozen drones takes out an entire Imperial convoy as well as their Space Marine escort. Each of these comparatively minor incidents would be a serious blow to the companies involved and seem like they would hardly be a rarity in the war torn 41st millennium.

So, how would this go about being fixed to make more sense, not just from losses sustained, but from the sense of actually being able to carry out a military campaign over anything other than a tiny theatre of war and the logistics of reinforcing to a significant degree? I mean, out of all the words to describe Space Marine conflicts in the lore, “tiny” hardly ever comes to mind.

My solution would be to make a very tiny errata to literally everything Space Marine related. Add a 0 to every number. Chapters would be 10,000 strong with companies or 1000. This would still be very small on a galactic scale but would actually make sense as a fighting force that (combined with how strong they are) could carry out military campaigns on their own. It also makes the wildly varied effectiveness of the Space Marines make more sense. In a particularly hard battle a few dozen battle brothers dying is a massive blow if your strength is only 100, but just a setback if you have 1000. In the larger conflicts loosing 396 out of 1000 marines, when you're already not at full strength is a devastating blow, but 3960 out of 10000, while proportionally the same, still leaves you with a respectable fighting force at the end of it all. With wars that companies can be committed to for years or more, the manpower just wouldn’t last at 100, no matter how strong Space Marines are.

Anyhow, I think that I’ve rambled long enough, what do you all think? Agree, disagree? Flaw in my logic somewhere?
1000 marine official chapter numbers has always been ridiculous.

Losing only 10 marines would set the chapter back years.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 09:53:21


Post by: Afrodactyl


I always assumed it was 1000 battle brothers was marines in "active" service, so 1000 warriors ready for deployment at a moment's notice while the others rest, recuperate and otherwise do whatever marines do when they chill out.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 10:53:56


Post by: techsoldaten


Here's how I've always thought about it.

The headcount restriction constrains Space Marine chapters in the battles they can fight. A larger engagement requires cooperation between multiple chapters / other Imperial forces.

For the sake of argument, let's say the ideal opponent is a 100,000 man Renegade Guard force limited to a single region of a planet. A Space Marine Chapter could conceivably prevail by deploying companies to engage on multiple fronts, destroying supply lines, eliminating command structures, etc. Their success depends on utilizing superior tactics and equipment, picking the right battles, having the mobility to rapidly redeploy between conflict zones, dropping orbital bombardments from space, and deficiencies with their opponents.

Now imagine that opponent is 10x larger and fights across multiple planets. The scale of the conflict is greater than what a single Chapter can do efficiently. So now they need allies, which mean calling in some combination of Guard, Navy, Titan / Knight Houses, Sisters and other Chapters. Those allies have some agency to decide how they want to be involved, with the understanding there will be consequences for refusing a request.

It's effective because Space Marines are feared not just because of weight of numbers, but because of the sum of what they can bring to the table. They're a deterrent as much as a fighting force.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 11:20:54


Post by: A.T.


Voss wrote:
And for all sorts of reasons, that's impractical. Communication, transportation, other commitments. Chapters tend to have companies, demi-companies or individual squads scattered all over the place, and they don't deploy in any fashion that makes sense to modern logistics.
The marines erratic communication, transportation, and other logistical issues apply both to mutliple chapters and within the same chapter.

And also kind of serve the purpose that having the smaller chapters exists for. Collectively the high lords can ask that all available marines in a given area go to point A and kill the xenos, but these disperate forces are somewhat less capable of organising with one another. The whole thing is intended to prevent any one chapter master from gathering a critical mass of marines to deploy at his discretion. The inefficiencies are accepted as the cost of it.

Ironically the Ultramarines are the only chapter noted to have flagrantly disregarded this limitation when they gathered all of their successor chapters (more than half of the Imperiums standing forces) to attack the Night Lords homeworld.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 11:44:47


Post by: Gert


Space Marine co-operation on a large scale happens all the time in the background. At Armageddon for example the many fleets of Navy and Astartes ships were put under the command of High Marshal Helbrecht due to his veterancy and skill in void warfare.
And again, the whole reason for Chapters being that small is to prevent similar situations to the Heresy. One Chapter turning traitor is a much easier thing to deal with than a Legion, especially when the Imperium would have five times as many Chapters to call on to deal with the single traitor. Chapters are also less restricted in tactical choices conpared to a Legion Chapter/Grand Company. The Ultramarines 125th Chapter might be an armour formation but the Steel Dragons Chapter, while favouring armoured warfare, will still have Assault Companies or Tactical Companies to give it more options if needs be.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 13:03:54


Post by: Tyzarion_Kronius


I think thousand chapters of around ten thousand Astartes would make the most sensible amount of Astartes.

It would allow for something like a dozen regiments of about 9-12 companies each.

And I like to also add an extra zero in headcanon to legion sizes.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 15:15:03


Post by: Tawnis


There's a lot of talk of the Space Marine Chapters having to be so small because of the power Horus wielded, and while that it true, it's also true that it wasn't just the Legions that turned, it was the Titans, the Solar Auxilia, the HH equivalent of the Guard, the Mechanicum, ect... everything split down the middle.

Even with half the legions to his banner, after purging the ranks and the dropsite massicre, he had what? 1 million Space Marines, tops? That amount could fit inside a city. Sure you could easily conquer a planet with it, a system, several systems even given time, but certainly not a galaxy, not on their own. They can only be in so many places at once no matter how strong they are.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 15:31:08


Post by: Gert


Tawnis wrote:
There's a lot of talk of the Space Marine Chapters having to be so small because of the power Horus wielded, and while that it true, it's also true that it wasn't just the Legions that turned, it was the Titans, the Solar Auxilia, the HH equivalent of the Guard, the Mechanicum, ect... everything split down the middle.

The Titan Legions got absolutely smashed during the Heresy and will never return to the levels they once were.
The Imperial Army was split into the Astra Militarum and Imperial Navy to stop the Militarum from having transports and the Navy from having troops to hold worlds, then the Militarum was split even further so Regiments could specialise in one specific role (armour, infantry, artillery) to prevent a traitor Regiment from being able to effectively counter a retribution force.
The Mechanicus was heavily rearranged post-Martian Schism and was integrated much more into the Imperium than as the Mechanicum.

Even with half the legions to his banner, after purging the ranks and the dropsite massicre, he had what? 1 million Space Marines, tops? That amount could fit inside a city. Sure you could easily conquer a planet with it, a system, several systems even given time, but certainly not a galaxy, not on their own. They can only be in so many places at once no matter how strong they are.

Add onto that the fleets the Legions commanded, the influence Space Marines have on mortals and you have a recipe for disaster. Each Expeditionary Fleet was basically subservient to any Legion element at it's core. The 63rd, despite having Mechanicum, Army, and Titan forces, all fell under the command of Horus.
Astartes still have that level of power in the modern Imperium. A Chapter Master, especially a veteran one such as Dante, Calgar, or Lugft Huron, can and will take command of theatres of war. At that point what stops them from taking all of these forces and turning on the Imperium? Not a whole lot. So by reducing the number of the best troops available to said Chapter Master, the Imperium potentially prevents a calamity.
Lugft Huron was confident in his ability to win the Badab War because he had the double strength Astral Claws, the Mantis Warriors, the Lamenters, and thousands of troops from the Tyrant's Legion under his command alongside Battlefleet Maelstrom against what was originally one Chapter strike force and mortal household armies.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 16:13:39


Post by: LumenPraebeo


1000 super-humans is indeed too small a number, in relation to modern age conflicts. Even considering their superhuman physiology. It could even be argued that even if outdone in fighting ability by super-humans, the momentum of war activity generated by military numbers by the 1800s, would have easily outpaced any damage a group of 1000 Astartes could do.

But like someone earlier has said in this thread, the fighting numbers seen in Warhammer 40,000 seem to incredibly small. I also used to be of the opinion that writers just dont know their own relative scale, but nowadays, i am of the opinion that 40K numbers and setting elements are much more reflective of medieval era numbers/style. Back then, the vast majority of conflicts were also very local and opposing forces were also numerically small. Conflicts were between local noblemen and wealthy individuals/families. Local fights, battles, or if things get serious, sieges, saw numbers in the low hundreds at most, and quite often, it wasn't even more than 200 people. Only if we scale out to a larger view, wars between royals, and kingdoms would involve tens of thousands of personnel. 40K is very much in standing with these numbers and scale of conflict.

This is all without considering force amplifying weapons such as space ships, titans, and WMDs can do of course.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 21:53:41


Post by: Tawnis


A Chapter Master, especially a veteran one such as Dante, Calgar, or Lugft Huron, can and will take command of theatres of war. At that point what stops them from taking all of these forces and turning on the Imperium? Not a whole lot. So by reducing the number of the best troops available to said Chapter Master, the Imperium potentially prevents a calamity.
Lugft Huron was confident in his ability to win the Badab War because he had the double strength Astral Claws, the Mantis Warriors, the Lamenters, and thousands of troops from the Tyrant's Legion under his command alongside Battlefleet Maelstrom against what was originally one Chapter strike force and mortal household armies.


Yes, exactly this, this is what we should see more of if the numbers aren't going to change (which they obviously aren't.) Chapter Masters using their influence as power. Small groups of marines taking part in much larger actions and actually leading and supporting the main Astra Militarum forces. Going off on their own, or with limited support and trying to conquer systems just doesn't work.



Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 22:05:02


Post by: Gert


Tawnis wrote:

Yes, exactly this, this is what we should see more of if the numbers aren't going to change (which they obviously aren't.) Chapter Masters using their influence as power. Small groups of marines taking part in much larger actions and actually leading and supporting the main Astra Militarum forces. Going off on their own, or with limited support and trying to conquer systems just doesn't work.

Except this kind of thing is very much not allowed and only in exceptional circumstances do Marine commanders take over theatre command.
Command of a force tasked with invading/liberating a planet or system (unless there is a serious enemy commander such as Abaddon or Ghazghkull) is left to a mortal commander.
Space Marines do actually go off on their own as strike forces to fight alongside Militarum Regiments, Sororitas Priories, Mechanicus Maniples, and Knight Lances in large scale engagements. There doesn't need to be an immediate support presence for every single Marine operation.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 23:27:49


Post by: Curvaceous


 Gert wrote:
A Chapter Master, especially a veteran one such as Dante, Calgar, or Lugft Huron, can and will take command of theatres of war. At that point what stops them from taking all of these forces and turning on the Imperium?.


Do you think this might be the purpose of chapters compared to legions? When a marine is appointed to a job like this, the officers from other chapters and the guard and navy high commands choose to join or withdraw from the crusade. When Dante commanded the three chapters at Armageddon 2, it was with the support of tu’shan and calgar, and it was just for the purposes of fighting at Armageddon, they had no reason to follow him if he decided to attack earth. Also he didn’t have any real authority over them; he couldn’t demote Calgar and put one of his friends in charge of the Ultramarines chapter.

This is completely different than legions, where Abaddon and Erebus could cultivate officers in their own companies, but then get them appointed important commands all across their legions. Then, once again, those corrupt captains weren’t heads of their own organizations, it wasn’t their job to choose to submit to or withdraw from their enemies. Horus as warmaster also had the ability to choose who would be the next lord militant or lord admiral of other organizations.

That could be the main difference, what do you think?


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/22 23:42:44


Post by: Gert


Curvaceous wrote:

Do you think this might be the purpose of chapters compared to legions? When a marine is appointed to a job like this, the officers from other chapters and the guard and navy high commands choose to join or withdraw from the crusade. When Dante commanded the three chapters at Armageddon 2, it was with the support of tu’shan and calgar, and it was just for the purposes of fighting at Armageddon, they had no reason to follow him if he decided to attack earth. Also he didn’t have any real authority over them; he couldn’t demote Calgar and put one of his friends in charge of the Ultramarines chapter.

This is completely different than legions, where Abaddon and Erebus could cultivate officers in their own companies, but then get them appointed important commands all across their legions. Then, once again, those corrupt captains weren’t heads of their own organizations, it wasn’t their job to choose to submit to or withdraw from their enemies. Horus as warmaster also had the ability to choose who would be the next lord militant or lord admiral of other organizations.

That could be the main difference, what do you think?

That's the idea behind it. Technically any Imperial commander can refuse to serve under an Astartes, most just don't because the Astartes is at least twice your age with better knowledge, skills, and abilities.

It does become an issue when we look at things like the Chapters of the Blood or the Unforgiven, especially the latter. A Company of Carmine Blades (BA Successor) doesn't have to follow the commands of Dante but probably will. The Unforgiven are even worse as they all (bar a few) serve under Azrael (or any DA Chapter Master) without question especially in matters pertaining to the Fallen. The spirit of the Legions is strong in many Chapters but the further a Chapter is from its founder, the less likely they are to be subservient. Take the Emperor's Spears for example who very much don't care about their founders, the Ultramarines, in any way.

Then on top of the "unofficial Legions", there are formations like the Ultramar Defence Auxilia who are placed directly under the command of the Ultramarines and possibly their Successors even before the return of Guilliman. If the leader of one of the greatest Chapters in history, a living Angel of the Emperor, says that your Regiment must march on Terra to prevent it's fall into the hands of Heretics, are you going to question them? Are you going to question them after the last officer had their head burst like a watermelon? There are a lot of instances where non-SM forces end up against the Imperium because they followed the wrong person.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/23 06:29:51


Post by: Argive


One marine can kill an entire planet with one hand tied behind his back while sipping a cup of tea with the other.

Now imagine what a 1000 marines can do...
Like if you cloned chuck norris a thusand times, you could get anything done


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/23 08:47:46


Post by: mrFickle


I think the Dark angels are an exception. They are extremely narcissistic and have clearly hidden a much larger force than 1000 marines on the rock and, has been said, retained control of the successor chapters.

This is why I think the lion is still the best primarch to return next, story wise, if we are to get more primarchs. He essentially has a legion sized force to control and could go on a big crusade into the dark imperium. Plus RG would have to be really cross with him but let him get away with it out of pragmatism. Which is their whole relationship I believe.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/25 16:11:38


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I'm not against the idea of dividing legions into chapters, I just think both of them require larger numbers to have done what they do. A straight x10 to both would satisfy IMO.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/25 16:23:53


Post by: Gert


Adding numbers doesn't fix anything because it's not the specific numbers of Astartes that's the issue, rather it's the fact that despite supposedly being rare forces SM are frontline for 90% of GW's materials because sales.
A Legion being 150k strong isn't a bad number because the Legions had superior "recruiting" techniques compared to modern SM Chapters. Rapid indoctrination and implantation meant that even after events such as Isstvan III and V the Traitor forces could just rebuild most of their losses while also taking the weapons, armour and equipment of the Loyalists killed in these engagements.
As for Chapters, again we should be seeing more situations like the Carcharadons where there is a serious struggle to maintain manpower and equipment in an age of constant warfare. The Carcharadons have to literally strip planets bare of human life to sustain their numbers of both Astartes and crew/slaves and need to go on dangerous expeditions to salvage archeotech to get equipment from the Mechanicus.

TLDR, it's not a numbers problem its a marketing problem.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/26 10:43:45


Post by: BrianDavion


 Gert wrote:
Adding numbers doesn't fix anything because it's not the specific numbers of Astartes that's the issue, rather it's the fact that despite supposedly being rare forces SM are frontline for 90% of GW's materials because sales.
A Legion being 150k strong isn't a bad number because the Legions had superior "recruiting" techniques compared to modern SM Chapters. Rapid indoctrination and implantation meant that even after events such as Isstvan III and V the Traitor forces could just rebuild most of their losses while also taking the weapons, armour and equipment of the Loyalists killed in these engagements.
As for Chapters, again we should be seeing more situations like the Carcharadons where there is a serious struggle to maintain manpower and equipment in an age of constant warfare. The Carcharadons have to literally strip planets bare of human life to sustain their numbers of both Astartes and crew/slaves and need to go on dangerous expeditions to salvage archeotech to get equipment from the Mechanicus.

TLDR, it's not a numbers problem its a marketing problem.


I mean TBH in war fiction that's the norm, people tend to focus on the elites not the more common thing.
case in point the Hawker Hurricane was the more numerous RAF figter during the battle of Britan but the Spitfire's the one everyone talks about


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/26 11:24:25


Post by: Gert


BrianDavion wrote:

I mean TBH in war fiction that's the norm, people tend to focus on the elites not the more common thing.
case in point the Hawker Hurricane was the more numerous RAF figter during the battle of Britan but the Spitfire's the one everyone talks about

For sure, Special Forces stories are always daring raids and valiant rescues, stuff that makes good stories.
Also 100%, the Hurricane is underrepresented just because the Spitfire has a cool name.


Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  @ 2021/07/26 11:45:41


Post by: kirotheavenger


The Spitfire is also a more sleek looking aircraft, vs the cunning brutality of the Hurricane.
The Spitfire was also the modern aircraft with better performance, and was advertised more by the UK at the time. Funding drives allowed you to buy Spitfires for example.

Although saying that, both of the period posters on my walls show Hurricanes! They also show Vickers Mk.IIs so you can easily argue that's because the artists didn't get access to the best stuff!