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Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/20 01:43:43


Post by: SemperMortis


Boyz are now 9ppm (1pt increase). They gained T5 and -1AP Choppas. Shoota boyz got worse in my opinion.

Now, what they lost. No longer gain +1 attack with 20+ models, Ere we go got nerfed to re-roll both dice, Mob Rule got heavily nerfed, so killing 4 boyz is a 50% chance to cause the unit to fail morale and lose 1+1/6th of your boyz. KFF got nerfed to a 6+ save, Endless Green Tide is gone so you can't respawn a mauled squad. Fight twice is gone.


Personally I think with all these nerfs, boyz are dead as a unit competitively, but I would like to hear what the community thinks.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/20 02:00:44


Post by: Daedalus81


There is little to compare to Trukk Boyz.

People were complaining about rokkits being heavy, but Trukk Boyz get +1 to hit on top of doubling their previous shots. I haven't seen the limitations on specialist mobs, but if you can take more than one such unit they'll be quite popular. Bad Moons even more so.

Goffs score an extra hit on 6s now with AP1, and +1A and +1 to hit from the boss, so, a larger unit melee unit is quite dangerous.

It is also likely they have the TBB keyword.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/20 02:08:23


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
There is little to compare to Trukk Boyz.

People were complaining about rokkits being heavy, but Trukk Boyz get +1 to hit on top of doubling their previous shots. I haven't seen the limitations on specialist mobs, but if you can take more than one such unit they'll be quite popular. Bad Moons even more so.

Goffs score an extra hit on 6s now with AP1, and +1A and +1 to hit from the boss, so, a larger unit melee unit is quite dangerous.

It is also likely they have the TBB keyword.


Right, but if you kill 6 of those boyz they basically fail their morale test and lose 1/6th of their remaining models. And at 9ppm its no longer "meh" that is actually a significant loss.
Those goffs are also now less reliable on the charge thanks to the nerf to Ere we go.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/20 05:17:15


Post by: alextroy


Less reliable isn’t nearly the same thing as unreliable. Just because some things are less effective than before doesn’t mean they will overall be ineffective.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/20 05:19:24


Post by: BrianDavion


 alextroy wrote:
Less reliable isn’t nearly the same thing as unreliable. Just because some things are less effective than before doesn’t mean they will overall be ineffective.


besides 8th edition made morale mitigators a bit too strong, it was a safe bet GW was gonna revisit them


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/20 05:36:55


Post by: Wyldhunt


Are rokkits actually a nerf? I thought they went from Assault 1 to Heavy d3.

So on average, an ork boy on the move will still get the same average number of hits (more against units of 6 or more models), and non-infantry rokkit wielders just straight up get more shots. The only downside I see is that you can't fish for 6s to hit with them after advancing.

Even at 9 points, T5 ork boyz seem like a pretty good wall of meat to throw on objectives and force your opponent to shift. Seems like they compare reasonably well to drukhari wyches. It's just weird that they didn't really gain any defense against S3 weapons, so it's kind of a defensive nerf against S3 armies like guard.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/20 05:41:19


Post by: MinMax


Green Tide is dead, but Boyz will live on.

As long as Gretchin continue to receive chain nerfs, Boyz will have to have a place.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/20 06:58:05


Post by: Blackie


I think they will be taken in competitive lists since orks only have 3 troops, one of which (gretchins) is pure garbage. For someone the fact that a unit is part of a competitive lists makes that unit a competitive one. I disagree with that concept and I think that boyz will just be a little bit more than a tax unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyldhunt wrote:
Are rokkits actually a nerf? I thought they went from Assault 1 to Heavy d3.

So on average, an ork boy on the move will still get the same average number of hits (more against units of 6 or more models), and non-infantry rokkit wielders just straight up get more shots. The only downside I see is that you can't fish for 6s to hit with them after advancing.

Even at 9 points, T5 ork boyz seem like a pretty good wall of meat to throw on objectives and force your opponent to shift. Seems like they compare reasonably well to drukhari wyches. It's just weird that they didn't really gain any defense against S3 weapons, so it's kind of a defensive nerf against S3 armies like guard.


It's actually a big improvement for vehicles since they don't care about the penalty. Now they fire 2x or 3x. There's an actual downside for rokkits which affects tankbustas: now they cannot deep strike and fire with no penalty. They went from 1 shot at BS5+, exploding 6s and full re-rolls against vehicles from deep strike to D3 shots with blasts, BS6+ and +1 to hit against vehicles. Sound a pretty harsh nerf to me. Not to mention that they can't even be enhanced with exploding 5s (More Dakka) or double tap (Showing Off) as all the shooty stratagems they can get are pretty bland now. I honestly don't see camper boyz with rokkits a viable thing. Maybe camper kommandos with a rokkit can work since they have a much better save in cover and can also fire a bomb squig.

But don't compare boyz with wyches as the latter are real killing machines, boyz are not.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/20 08:08:25


Post by: Jidmah


They will definitely stick around as troops tax/obsec units, even if it's just two mobs of trukk boy in two patrol detachments/spearheads. Disembarking after moving and flipping objectives because you got more ladz than the enemy is very juicy.

Large mobs are dead for sure, but it is possible that tide just jump to brigades/multi detachment setups and flood the board with 120+ boyz in units of 15-20. Losing 2-3 boyz to moral isn't that problematic.
The only problem I see for boyz is that beast snaggas boyz might just be better at the MSU game because of their extra rules, free klaws and better stratagems.

Shoota boyz? Dead on arrival IMO. For 100 points you get some objective campers with a rokkit, but they aren't durable enough to fulfill that role - even with just two or three casualties the risk of failing moral is already there.

So, not really voting one or the other


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/20 11:33:50


Post by: SemperMortis


 alextroy wrote:
Less reliable isn’t nearly the same thing as unreliable. Just because some things are less effective than before doesn’t mean they will overall be ineffective.


Boyz were dominant in Ork lists, not because they were good, but because most other things were bad. As far as reliable, pre-codex, Reliably you would get 10-15 boyz out of a mob of 30 into CC. 15 ork boyz with choppas in CC would get you 60 attacks, 40 hits, 20 wounds and 6.6 dmg to a Marine.

Those same 30 boyz now cost you 270pts (30pts more) they now have massive morale problems, they lost their ability to re-roll one or both dice on the charge and now have to reroll both. They lost +1 to attack with 30+ models. So now if they likewise get into CC they are 45 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds and 7.5dmg. But getting those into CC will be significantly less reliable and thanks to morale those boyz are still about as bad durability wise as before.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Are rokkits actually a nerf? I thought they went from Assault 1 to Heavy d3.

So on average, an ork boy on the move will still get the same average number of hits (more against units of 6 or more models), and non-infantry rokkit wielders just straight up get more shots. The only downside I see is that you can't fish for 6s to hit with them after advancing.

Even at 9 points, T5 ork boyz seem like a pretty good wall of meat to throw on objectives and force your opponent to shift. Seems like they compare reasonably well to drukhari wyches. It's just weird that they didn't really gain any defense against S3 weapons, so it's kind of a defensive nerf against S3 armies like guard.


On average an Ork boy with a rokkit is significantly worse because they also lost the rule DDD. If you moved (which orkz will inevitably due, especially with 24' range) a roll of 1-2 results in 1 shot hitting on 6s. Straight away worse than the old rule. On a 3-4 you get 2 shots, which is slightly worse than the old rule and finally only on a roll of 5-6 is the result better. here is the math for infantry.

Old Rokkit:
1 Shot, 0.39 hits.
New Rokkit:
1 Shot, 0.16 hits
2 Shots, 0.33 hits.
3 Shots, 0.5 hits.

So 1/3rd of the time its 41% as effective, 1/3rd of the time its 16%ish less effective and 1/3rd of the time its 22% better. So overall, for infantry its a nerf.

On Tankbustas, no kulture Vs Vehicles.

Old Rokkit rule:
12 shots = 4 hits, 8 rerolls 2 DDD, The 8 rerolls become 2.66 extra hits another 1.33 DDD The 4 total DDD = 1.33 more hits and W/rerolls another 0.89 more hits. Grand Total: 8.88 hits.
New Rokkit Rule.
12D3 shots = 12, 24 and 36. The +1 to hit cancels out the -1 for moving which again they will have done. So you get
12 = 4 hits
24 = 8 hits
36 = 12 hits.

So again, 1/3rd of the time its significantly worse, 1/3rd of the time its marginally worse, and 1/3rd of the time its better but not by as much as the worst result is worse lol.

So yes, its a nerf. The only time its not is when those tankbustas don't have to move. And we can theorycraft the hell out of that, but the fact is that I can't remember the last time I had tankbustas standing still, hell, I can't remember the last time I had tankbustas surviving past turn 2.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 03:44:47


Post by: Daedalus81


Additional food for thought -

Old Boyz under a KFF vs Bolt Rifles
10 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 2.2

Boyz now - no KFF
10 * .666 * .333 = 2.2



10 Old Boyz in melee vs marines with A bonus
40 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 4.4

10 Boyz now
30 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 5

10 Boyz with Waagh and Boss
40 * .833 * .5 * .5 = 8.33




Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 06:09:30


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Jidmah wrote:
They will definitely stick around as troops tax/obsec units, even if it's just two mobs of trukk boy in two patrol detachments/spearheads. Disembarking after moving and flipping objectives because you got more ladz than the enemy is very juicy.

Large mobs are dead for sure, but it is possible that tide just jump to brigades/multi detachment setups and flood the board with 120+ boyz in units of 15-20. Losing 2-3 boyz to moral isn't that problematic.
The only problem I see for boyz is that beast snaggas boyz might just be better at the MSU game because of their extra rules, free klaws and better stratagems.

Shoota boyz? Dead on arrival IMO. For 100 points you get some objective campers with a rokkit, but they aren't durable enough to fulfill that role - even with just two or three casualties the risk of failing moral is already there.

So, not really voting one or the other


I mean snaggas can be competitive...but when ork boys themselves are picked because grots suck and shoota boyz are never picked that's not what i'd call an unit standing on its own merits...
Indeed its the same with CSM cultists, they are not picked because they are good or workable, but rather because they are cheaper than CSM...


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 07:17:35


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Immediate thoughts?

T5 is a significant improvement. Orks can shrug off S4 attacks pretty well as they are.

AP -1 on Choppas helps them against Marines and other typically well armoured goons. Is it a straight balancer to Marines having 2 wounds now? Nah. Not one for one. But it’s still an improvement they previously lacked, which increases the damage they do, and indeed the whiffability of your opponent’s dice.

What’s whiffability? The propensity of the dice to declare “screw you, we’re going to ignore statistics because we can”. Rough (crap) example?

You bag 10 wounds on the Marines in combat (nice round number for demonstration purposes). He rolls them bones, and gets 1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,5,6. As Choppas are right now? He saved 7 of those wounds. With the -1? Oh dear..he failed 7. That -1 changing average success to pretty big disaster.

What I’m interested in seeing (and I’ll need someone who can actually math hammer properly) is comparing equal point units of Boyz.

Right now, at 8ppm, 30 Boyz (without upgrades) are 240 points. At 9 points? You can get 26. That’s just 4 Boyz fewer.

Put like that, it really doesn’t sound a lot. And in isolation of what else might comprise a given army, it seems a frankly laughable difference.

But appearances are of course deceptive.

I suspect we might needs copies of the two books in hand to really pick through it, but as a direct, in a vacuum, comparison? Strikes me that for a relatively small point increase, the new Boyz stat line is just a better deal due to hitting harder and taking a bit more oomph to kill.

And seriously, if someone actually capable of math hammer could weigh in, with explanations, I’d be very grateful


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 08:01:28


Post by: Blackie


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Right now, at 8ppm, 30 Boyz (without upgrades) are 240 points. At 9 points? You can get 26. That’s just 4 Boyz fewer.


They can't have a 5++ bubble anymore though and they're also much more vulnerable to morale. So in practise they were probably more resilient before, when they were T4.

2x30 boyz with pks on nobz are 500 points, 560 if we add a Big mek with a KFF. Now the same number of boyz cost exactly 560 points but with no invuln and more vulnerable to morale. Do you really think they're more resilient now that they gained T5?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 08:12:56


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Depends on what one can do with the rest of the points available to your army.

This is why I’m asking for math hammering.

Keep it exactly equal points. So to use your example, compare what the 560 in the current (previous?) Codex and what it buys you, to how many Boyz you end up with in the new Codex.

From there, start working out what sort of punishment it takes across both examples to take them all out, and try to extrapolate that into how many turns or enemy models dedicating firepower it would take to achieve each.

It’s also why I suggested factoring in how hard they hit. There’s little point in being hard to take down if you hit like a half empty pillow swung by an asthmatic five year old.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 08:54:52


Post by: Blackie


Of course, but notice that if they are actually easier to delete they won't hit (much) harder. We're talking about footsloggin melee oriented squishy dudes after all.

Pure numbers on paper mean nothing, really.

Like the 120 attacks they have on paper. In real life those attacks are actually 40, due to restrictions on the fight phase, even if the 30 man blob manages to suffer no casutalties before making the charge.

Considering all the leaks boyz seem very very weak now, that's taking into account the entire codex. That's why I consider them basically a tax for fielding a legal detachment. Grots are pure garbage and not everyone will have the snaggas in day 1.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 09:18:38


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


It really all depends.

Let’s say, purely for arguments sake, that when you get into combat you’ve got those 40 attacks available.

With the AP-1, the Boyz are objectively better off - and likely enough so to more than offset their points increase.

Now, how many Boyz does one need to start with to reasonably ensure you get self same 40 attacks? I genuinely do not know.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 09:26:59


Post by: Jidmah


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Depends on what one can do with the rest of the points available to your army.

This is why I’m asking for math hammering.

Keep it exactly equal points. So to use your example, compare what the 560 in the current (previous?) Codex and what it buys you, to how many Boyz you end up with in the new Codex.

From there, start working out what sort of punishment it takes across both examples to take them all out, and try to extrapolate that into how many turns or enemy models dedicating firepower it would take to achieve each.

It’s also why I suggested factoring in how hard they hit. There’s little point in being hard to take down if you hit like a half empty pillow swung by an asthmatic five year old.


I don't think we are ready for mathhammer yet - the codex has massively been shaken up, and it's safe to assume that every army working right now will be in shambles afterwards.

So essentially you would be comparing the 8th edition army to an army that will never be.

In any case, if you do that, you need to factor in morale. The old mob rule and da boss is watchin' pretty much made orks rarely lose more than 2-3 models from morale, while the new boyz can start failing tests with as little as 2 casualties.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 09:48:15


Post by: vict0988


80 T5 Orks require 33% more S4 hits to kill, 19% more S5 hits, 11% more S8/9 hits, 11% less S3, 6,7 and 10 hits than 90 T4 Orks.

80 neo-Goff Boys do 42% more damage on the charge to MEQ, 17% less against GEQ than 90 Goff Boys currently do.

I think green tide will be great in casual games, Drukhari and AdMech have good counters which will probably mean it's not going to go more than 4/1 at GTs.

If you are taking casualties from morale you should be happy, it means the squad survived.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 09:51:45


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I think folk would be happier if like current/old Codex Boyz, having enough of them meant no failed leadership.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 10:01:28


Post by: Jidmah


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think folk would be happier if like current/old Codex Boyz, having enough of them meant no failed leadership.


Not sure, I'm more happy with GW taking away incentives to bring mobs of 30. The green tide is not a lot of fun to play or play against.

It's probably also healthy for the game if most units don't ignore morale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:
If you are taking casualties from morale you should be happy, it means the squad survived.


Uhm, you just need to kill 4 to have a 50% chance to fail a moral test which will then kill an additional model and 1/6th of the unit. If your opponent brings units of 20, a failed morale test will kill about 3 additional orks.

So smart targeting can essentially negate the T5 buff fully.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 11:54:17


Post by: G00fySmiley


 vict0988 wrote:
80 T5 Orks require 33% more S4 hits to kill, 19% more S5 hits, 11% more S8/9 hits, 11% less S3, 6,7 and 10 hits than 90 T4 Orks.

80 neo-Goff Boys do 42% more damage on the charge to MEQ, 17% less against GEQ than 90 Goff Boys currently do.

I think green tide will be great in casual games, Drukhari and AdMech have good counters which will probably mean it's not going to go more than 4/1 at GTs.

If you are taking casualties from morale you should be happy, it means the squad survived.


going to have to explain your math here. 33% more s4 hits? they were wounding on 4s before and not wounding on 5's that is 16.7% difference and all other factors have remained the same. hit on BS and 6+ armor remain

on the original topic I think all things considered the thing I believe will hurt ork boyz the worst is the morale. When playing against orks for large units I really will be only taking out 7 ork boyz before deprioritizing them since the morale mechanic should take care of more than a few extra shots. I will only come back to shoot at them is no other targets are a threat or say they are likely get a charge next turn on something squishy and I can't just walk away from them with their low movement.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 12:16:36


Post by: the_scotsman


 Blackie wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Right now, at 8ppm, 30 Boyz (without upgrades) are 240 points. At 9 points? You can get 26. That’s just 4 Boyz fewer.


They can't have a 5++ bubble anymore though and they're also much more vulnerable to morale. So in practise they were probably more resilient before, when they were T4.

2x30 boyz with pks on nobz are 500 points, 560 if we add a Big mek with a KFF. Now the same number of boyz cost exactly 560 points but with no invuln and more vulnerable to morale. Do you really think they're more resilient now that they gained T5?


I mean, they can have a 5++ bubble, it does cost you 2cp per turn but depending on what you want to protect that may be worth it. I'm still finding I'm including KFFs in some of my lists.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 12:21:07


Post by: jullevi


 G00fySmiley wrote:

going to have to explain your math here. 33% more s4 hits? they were wounding on 4s before and not wounding on 5's that is 16.7% difference and all other factors have remained the same. hit on BS and 6+ armor remain


Going from 4+ to 5+ is 16.7% difference but 33% decrease in power. The math is still off because to make up for 33% decrease you need 50% more attacks. That is how math works.

EDIT: I didn't take amount of models into account.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 12:43:16


Post by: G00fySmiley


I can see the 33% claim from a result standpoint, but definatly not taking 50% more shooting

50% more attacks needs more explanation then "how math works"

In the old T4 orks 10 intersessors rapid fire into T4 orks with plain bolt rifles. 20 shots, 13.2 hits, 20 x .66 Those 13 hits then wounding on 4's (13.2x.5) so 6.6 wounds. ap-1 so no save. 6.6 dead orks

In the new T5 orks 10 intersessors rapid fire into T5 orks with plain bolt rifles. 20 shots hitting, 13.2 hits (same as above). those hits now wound on 5's , (13.2 x .33) means 4.4 dead orks.

so when you take into account the full attack sequence the space marines do 33% less casualties on the orks in this situation



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 12:44:36


Post by: Grimskul


I think they'll be competitive purely for the trukk boyz (once they fix the wording) and nothing else since Snaggas outcompete them on foot and Grots are functionally useless.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 12:55:17


Post by: Tyel


jullevi wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:

going to have to explain your math here. 33% more s4 hits? they were wounding on 4s before and not wounding on 5's that is 16.7% difference and all other factors have remained the same. hit on BS and 6+ armor remain


Going from 4+ to 5+ is 16.7% difference but 33% decrease in power. The math is still off because to make up for 33% decrease you need 50% more attacks. That is how math works.


Its 33% because you are comparing 80 T5 bodies to 90 T4 bodies.

I.E. you need 240 S4 hits to kill the former, and 180 to kill the latter. 240/180=1.33.

Not really sure on the doom and gloom. Green Tide was boring before - but I think the reasons it "works" (i.e. your opponent has bought a hard anti-power armour, i.e. 2+/4++ save models) will continue. Lists that want to maintain the style will probably gravitate towards 90 Kommandos/Storm Boyz - but you could still see 45-60 boyz on the table backing them up if you want to go all in.

As some have said - the perk now is you don't need to worry about taking 30 in a blob, in the hope that 20 are still alive when you make contact for that extra attack. You might want to keep one such mob for Da Jump, but its not mandatory. You can bring mobs of 15-20 and most will get to swing their choppas if they make a successful charge rather than sitting in the back cheering.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 13:20:57


Post by: SemperMortis


As Jidmah pointed out, Ork boyz are LESS durable than they were before. Good work GW.

Orkz face off against a 10 man intercessor squad because the Marine player was being weird that day.

10 Marines = 20 shots, 14ish hits,

Old Orkz: 14 hits turns into 7 dead Orkz. Mob down to 23, doesn't give a damn, keeps on muckin about.

New Orkz: 14 hits turns into 5 dead Orkz, Mob down to 25, Mob likely fails morale, loses 1 boy, down to 24, Now rolls attrition, fails 4 more rolls on average, congrats you are now down to 20 models you have lost 3 more boyz that cost more under the new rules than you did before.

Ork units w/ Morale in general are going to be in a really bad place this edition. Christ Mek Gunz have a 50% chance to fail morale now after losing 1 model.

Orkz are going to go through a paradigm shift. Going from massive blobs of boyz and "speshulists" to Elite MSU builds, because if they aren't in the smallest units allowed they will get gutted by Morale.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 13:56:16


Post by: vict0988


 G00fySmiley wrote:
They were wounding on 4s before and not wounding on 5's that is 16.7% difference and all other factors have remained the same.

Wounding on 4+ means you wound 3/6 times, 4s, 5s and 6s on a 6-sided dice. Wounding on 5+ means you wound 2/6 times. If it takes 12 bolter hits to kill 5 T4 Ork Boys, you will need 18 to kill 5 T5 Ork Boys. 12*3/6=18*2/6.

6.6 dead Orks... 4.4 dead Orks.

6,6/4,4=1,5. You need 15 Intercessors instead of 10 Intercessors to kill as many Orks as you would have previously.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 13:59:40


Post by: Daedalus81


Right so, 23 boyz and 20 boyz.


23 * 4 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 10

20 * 3 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 10

You lost 3 extra boyz and still do the same damage. And, again, if you have a warboss -

20 * 4 * .833 * .5 * .5 = 16.7

I wonder why GW got rid of mob rule....hmmm...


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 15:53:33


Post by: moreorless


 the_scotsman wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Right now, at 8ppm, 30 Boyz (without upgrades) are 240 points. At 9 points? You can get 26. That’s just 4 Boyz fewer.


They can't have a 5++ bubble anymore though and they're also much more vulnerable to morale. So in practise they were probably more resilient before, when they were T4.

2x30 boyz with pks on nobz are 500 points, 560 if we add a Big mek with a KFF. Now the same number of boyz cost exactly 560 points but with no invuln and more vulnerable to morale. Do you really think they're more resilient now that they gained T5?


I mean, they can have a 5++ bubble, it does cost you 2cp per turn but depending on what you want to protect that may be worth it. I'm still finding I'm including KFFs in some of my lists.


I'm guessing really the intension though is to make them more durable without there being units you focus much on buffing.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 17:43:34


Post by: epronovost


Am I confusing this with AoS, but isn't there a universal strat to make a unit automatically pass a leadership test? If yes, it could mitigate some of the moral problems though it would limit the number of big mobs you can take to basically one or maybe two.

With the nerf to moral, I would be tempted to say that boyz mounted on trukks or a carpet of small units is preferable.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 17:45:01


Post by: Daedalus81


epronovost wrote:
Am I confusing this with AoS, but isn't there a universal strat to make a unit automatically pass a leadership test? If yes, it could mitigate some of the moral problems though it would limit the number of big mobs you can take to basically one or maybe two.

With the nerf to moral, I would be tempted to say that boyz mounted on trukks or a carpet of small units is preferable.


Yes. Orks have a second worse one. Lots of CP though.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 17:50:19


Post by: G00fySmiley


epronovost wrote:
Am I confusing this with AoS, but isn't there a universal strat to make a unit automatically pass a leadership test? If yes, it could mitigate some of the moral problems though it would limit the number of big mobs you can take to basically one or maybe two.

With the nerf to moral, I would be tempted to say that boyz mounted on trukks or a carpet of small units is preferable.


yea, with grots being WAY overcosted they are the cheapest viable option for scoring secondary's. We are still looking at a 90 point unit sadly, T5 will be niceish but with a 6+ and bad leadership we will still going to be easy to wipe off objectives, but once down to a nob and a boy or 2 hopefully they can hide behind LOS blocking terrain and hope to get points. I do think trukk boys special will make it into one unit in a lot of armies as the special culture once they change the rules/ FAQ so they can legally ride in a trukk


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 17:58:38


Post by: Daedalus81


I don't think grots are overcosted. T3 helps a ton and now they get to a 5+ in cover. Perfect for holding the backfield and grot shields is no targeting.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 18:04:11


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think grots are overcosted. T3 helps a ton and now they get to a 5+ in cover. Perfect for holding the backfield and grot shields is no targeting.


i mean, compare them to guardsman. they get a guardsman save only in cover worst statline and no orders plus a special rule to make them cowardly for... half a point less per model. only thing they do get is the models being tiny. grot shields may have some strange list uses, if it were a unit ability it might make up for a lot of the bad statline but spending cp on it makes it bad imo


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 18:44:25


Post by: Daedalus81


 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think grots are overcosted. T3 helps a ton and now they get to a 5+ in cover. Perfect for holding the backfield and grot shields is no targeting.


i mean, compare them to guardsman. they get a guardsman save only in cover worst statline and no orders plus a special rule to make them cowardly for... half a point less per model. only thing they do get is the models being tiny. grot shields may have some strange list uses, if it were a unit ability it might make up for a lot of the bad statline but spending cp on it makes it bad imo


It's hard to compare across codexes, because at the same time IG can't go to 30 and doesn't have Boyz to lean on. IS were oversold since you need commanders to make them work. When they fed CP they were amazing for the points. Not so much any more.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 18:46:32


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think grots are overcosted. T3 helps a ton and now they get to a 5+ in cover. Perfect for holding the backfield and grot shields is no targeting.


Remember how I showed you that T5 boyz at 9ppm are less durable than T4 8ppm boyz?

Grots are the same way, only difference is they also lost their 1 really big upside, Objective secured.

T3 Grot In the open, 9 S4 hits, 6 wounds, 6 dead Grots.
T2 Grots in the open, 9 S4 hits, 7.5 wounds, 6.25 dead Grots. wooohoo! New Grots are better!....well no

Combat attrition, both fail morale because LD4. Both lose 1 from failing Morale, New grots than lose 1/2 of what is left, old grots lose 1/3rd of what is left.

T3 grots total: 9 dead, 1 left alive.
T2 grots total: 8 dead, 2 left alive.

In cover the new grots fair about the same as old grots because they both get 5+ in cover.





Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 18:47:11


Post by: Tyel


SemperMortis wrote:
As Jidmah pointed out, Ork boyz are LESS durable than they were before. Good work GW.

Orkz face off against a 10 man intercessor squad because the Marine player was being weird that day.

10 Marines = 20 shots, 14ish hits,

Old Orkz: 14 hits turns into 7 dead Orkz. Mob down to 23, doesn't give a damn, keeps on muckin about.

New Orkz: 14 hits turns into 5 dead Orkz, Mob down to 25, Mob likely fails morale, loses 1 boy, down to 24, Now rolls attrition, fails 4 more rolls on average, congrats you are now down to 20 models you have lost 3 more boyz that cost more under the new rules than you did before.

Ork units w/ Morale in general are going to be in a really bad place this edition. Christ Mek Gunz have a 50% chance to fail morale now after losing 1 model.

Orkz are going to go through a paradigm shift. Going from massive blobs of boyz and "speshulists" to Elite MSU builds, because if they aren't in the smallest units allowed they will get gutted by Morale.


I'm not really sure this is how it will go in game though.
Put another way in your scenario the Marine player has just left that blob of 20 Boyz there to do whatever it is they were going to do next turn (or 25, because the Ork player could pass morale). Which seems bad.

More likely you'll be aiming to kill that Boyz squad (or cripple it down to 3 model or something). So say they kill 20 out of 30. Odds are you fail so one runs away. Odds are also however that if this is early on in the game you are in 6" of another Clan Mob unit that isn't under half strength. So you'd expect another 1-2 run away. Leaving you with 7-8 Boyz where before you might have kept 10 (ignoring the T5/T4 change). I'm not sure that's overly important. Taking account of T5, if they they did that with mainly S4 shooting, they'd have potentially just killed all 30 boyz before.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 18:49:21


Post by: SemperMortis


Tyel wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
As Jidmah pointed out, Ork boyz are LESS durable than they were before. Good work GW.

Orkz face off against a 10 man intercessor squad because the Marine player was being weird that day.

10 Marines = 20 shots, 14ish hits,

Old Orkz: 14 hits turns into 7 dead Orkz. Mob down to 23, doesn't give a damn, keeps on muckin about.

New Orkz: 14 hits turns into 5 dead Orkz, Mob down to 25, Mob likely fails morale, loses 1 boy, down to 24, Now rolls attrition, fails 4 more rolls on average, congrats you are now down to 20 models you have lost 3 more boyz that cost more under the new rules than you did before.

Ork units w/ Morale in general are going to be in a really bad place this edition. Christ Mek Gunz have a 50% chance to fail morale now after losing 1 model.

Orkz are going to go through a paradigm shift. Going from massive blobs of boyz and "speshulists" to Elite MSU builds, because if they aren't in the smallest units allowed they will get gutted by Morale.


I'm not really sure this is how it will go in game though.
Put another way in your scenario the Marine player has just left that blob of 20 Boyz there to do whatever it is they were going to do next turn (or 25, because the Ork player could pass morale). Which seems bad.

More likely you'll be aiming to kill that Boyz squad (or cripple it down to 3 model or something). So say they kill 20 out of 30. Odds are you fail so one runs away. Odds are also however that if this is early on in the game you are in 6" of another Clan Mob unit that isn't under half strength. So you'd expect another 1-2 run away. Leaving you with 7-8 Boyz where before you might have kept 10 (ignoring the T5/T4 change). I'm not sure that's overly important. Taking account of T5, if they they did that with mainly S4 shooting, they'd have potentially just killed all 30 boyz before.


The point being that boyz are no more durable than they were prior thanks to morale. The only big difference is that Boyz now get to pay 1ppm for a -1AP choppa since the T5 is neatly ignored by being LD7 instead of LD30 like it used to be.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 18:54:54


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think grots are overcosted. T3 helps a ton and now they get to a 5+ in cover. Perfect for holding the backfield and grot shields is no targeting.


i mean, compare them to guardsman. they get a guardsman save only in cover worst statline and no orders plus a special rule to make them cowardly for... half a point less per model. only thing they do get is the models being tiny. grot shields may have some strange list uses, if it were a unit ability it might make up for a lot of the bad statline but spending cp on it makes it bad imo


It's hard to compare across codexes, because at the same time IG can't go to 30 and doesn't have Boyz to lean on. IS were oversold since you need commanders to make them work. When they fed CP they were amazing for the points. Not so much any more.


do you honestly think with the morale issue for grots anybody would take a larger squad of them though? currently grots are one of the worst units in the codex and the T3 makes them better than before they are still unlikely to be taken in much. I heard a playtester say they tried 2 grots per 5 points (at the old T2) and then they were still just ok for scoring secondaries (a perfectly useful role honestly in 9th) honestly. the T3 is a buff but i am hoping they get something else in chapter approved 2022 to make em worth the 5 points or just drop en to 10 grots for 40 and can only be bought in groups of 5 grots for 20 points.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 19:02:43


Post by: jullevi


 G00fySmiley wrote:
I can see the 33% claim from a result standpoint, but definatly not taking 50% more shooting

50% more attacks needs more explanation then "how math works"

In the old T4 orks 10 intersessors rapid fire into T4 orks with plain bolt rifles. 20 shots, 13.2 hits, 20 x .66 Those 13 hits then wounding on 4's (13.2x.5) so 6.6 wounds. ap-1 so no save. 6.6 dead orks

In the new T5 orks 10 intersessors rapid fire into T5 orks with plain bolt rifles. 20 shots hitting, 13.2 hits (same as above). those hits now wound on 5's , (13.2 x .33) means 4.4 dead orks.


4.4 dead Orks is 33% less than 6.6, but 6.6 dead Orks is 50% more than 4.4. That's what I meant that you need 50% increase in firepower to make up for 33% decrease in efficiency. 15 shots instead of 10, for example (assuming same amount of target models).

That being said, I only know math, not 40k. I don't know anything about point values, morale, bubbles or any other variables.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 19:20:02


Post by: G00fySmiley


jullevi wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
I can see the 33% claim from a result standpoint, but definatly not taking 50% more shooting

50% more attacks needs more explanation then "how math works"

In the old T4 orks 10 intersessors rapid fire into T4 orks with plain bolt rifles. 20 shots, 13.2 hits, 20 x .66 Those 13 hits then wounding on 4's (13.2x.5) so 6.6 wounds. ap-1 so no save. 6.6 dead orks

In the new T5 orks 10 intersessors rapid fire into T5 orks with plain bolt rifles. 20 shots hitting, 13.2 hits (same as above). those hits now wound on 5's , (13.2 x .33) means 4.4 dead orks.


4.4 dead Orks is 33% less than 6.6, but 6.6 dead Orks is 50% more than 4.4. That's what I meant that you need 50% increase in firepower to make up for 33% decrease in efficiency. 15 shots instead of 10, for example (assuming same amount of target models).

That being said, I only know math, not 40k. I don't know anything about point values, morale, bubbles or any other variables.


but that is 33% more shots (as a whole), but i get it, you aren't necessarily wrong its just wording.

the logic there is like saying look i bought this $200 pair of shoes but only paid $100 so I got 100% off. Or in another more likely situation if I buy $100 worth of groceries and they put on the receipt the amount i "saved" due to sales" and I "saved" $50 I didn't save 50% I saved 33% but if you said "I saved half or the paid price that would also be correct just... more confusing

mayeb just more confusing to me, i am a data analyst as a profession so mostly think in number like how they would work out on a spreadsheet or SQL


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 19:49:52


Post by: the_scotsman


 G00fySmiley wrote:
I can see the 33% claim from a result standpoint, but definatly not taking 50% more shooting

50% more attacks needs more explanation then "how math works"

In the old T4 orks 10 intersessors rapid fire into T4 orks with plain bolt rifles. 20 shots, 13.2 hits, 20 x .66 Those 13 hits then wounding on 4's (13.2x.5) so 6.6 wounds. ap-1 so no save. 6.6 dead orks

In the new T5 orks 10 intersessors rapid fire into T5 orks with plain bolt rifles. 20 shots hitting, 13.2 hits (same as above). those hits now wound on 5's , (13.2 x .33) means 4.4 dead orks.

so when you take into account the full attack sequence the space marines do 33% less casualties on the orks in this situation



Yeah, and then worth noting in the old paradigm the boyz would take 0 casualties from morale (old mob rule) while now, they have a 50% chance of taking 1+1/6 of the unit.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 19:54:26


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think grots are overcosted. T3 helps a ton and now they get to a 5+ in cover. Perfect for holding the backfield and grot shields is no targeting.


Remember how I showed you that T5 boyz at 9ppm are less durable than T4 8ppm boyz?


Do you mean your reference to the consequences of morale? To which I demonstrated how that is irrelevant when boyz do so much better than before.

Grots are the same way, only difference is they also lost their 1 really big upside, Objective secured.


Grots aren't the unit to be up front. There may come a day where a campaign book releases a supplement that makes an all grot army viable, but that's not the reality here. Grots are either the unobtrusive shield wall or out of sight.

It seems what GW doesn't want is a huge crush of cheap bodies swarming and being extremely difficult to remove under the new morale system. Cultists also lost obsec. Poxwalkers don't have actions.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 19:54:52


Post by: vict0988


 G00fySmiley wrote:
but that is 33% more shots (as a whole), but i get it, you aren't necessarily wrong its just wording.

10/15=0,67=/=15/10=1,5. It's not 33% more shots to kill T5, it's 33% less shots to kill T4.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 21:47:03


Post by: tulun


I am more bullish on snaggas personally.

Automatically having that str 5 breakpoint allows you to tech away from Goffs (if you so choose), and allows you look at other clans (snakebites, suns...).

They also have an innate invul, saving you the bother of an 85 point KFF not worth its weight.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 22:50:18


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think grots are overcosted. T3 helps a ton and now they get to a 5+ in cover. Perfect for holding the backfield and grot shields is no targeting.


Remember how I showed you that T5 boyz at 9ppm are less durable than T4 8ppm boyz?


Do you mean your reference to the consequences of morale? To which I demonstrated how that is irrelevant when boyz do so much better than before.

Grots are the same way, only difference is they also lost their 1 really big upside, Objective secured.


Grots aren't the unit to be up front. There may come a day where a campaign book releases a supplement that makes an all grot army viable, but that's not the reality here. Grots are either the unobtrusive shield wall or out of sight.

It seems what GW doesn't want is a huge crush of cheap bodies swarming and being extremely difficult to remove under the new morale system. Cultists also lost obsec. Poxwalkers don't have actions.


In regards to boyz, no, they don't.

27 Old Boyz = 216pts.
24 "New" boyz = 216pts.

Same scenario (changing a bit for ease of math ) 21 shots, 14 hits, against Old boyz its 7 dead Boyz.
New boyz its 14 hits, 4.8 wounds for 4.8 (rounding to 5) dead Boys.

Old boyz are down to 20 Models and pass morale.
New boyz are down to 19 models, and fail morale, down to 18. 1/6 die so now down to 15. They all get into combat that next turn.

20 Old Boyz = 80 attacks, 53.3 hits, 26.6 wounds and against a Marine unit that is 8.8 dmg
15 "New" boyz = 45 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds and 7.5 Dmg.

Old Boyz do more dmg and only lost 56pts
New Boyz do less dmg and lost 81pts.

Now, that is all planet bowling ball I get that, but the point is that Morale is going to be a crushing difference maker, it quiet literally cancels out the benefit of T5. I would gladly trade T5 for old Mob Rule. Just Like I would gladly trade T3 for old Grot rules as pathetic as they were.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 23:06:19


Post by: addnid


I would gladly trade this new codex for another codex with no new models coming along.
It is all that beastsnagga crap that is to blame. I am certain with that model range that needs selling, GW would have given us a better codex


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/21 23:25:21


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:


In regards to boyz, no, they don't.

27 Old Boyz = 216pts.
24 "New" boyz = 216pts.

Same scenario (changing a bit for ease of math ) 21 shots, 14 hits, against Old boyz its 7 dead Boyz.
New boyz its 14 hits, 4.8 wounds for 4.8 (rounding to 5) dead Boys.

Old boyz are down to 20 Models and pass morale.
New boyz are down to 19 models, and fail morale, down to 18. 1/6 die so now down to 15. They all get into combat that next turn.

20 Old Boyz = 80 attacks, 53.3 hits, 26.6 wounds and against a Marine unit that is 8.8 dmg
15 "New" boyz = 45 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds and 7.5 Dmg.

Old Boyz do more dmg and only lost 56pts
New Boyz do less dmg and lost 81pts.

Now, that is all planet bowling ball I get that, but the point is that Morale is going to be a crushing difference maker, it quiet literally cancels out the benefit of T5. I would gladly trade T5 for old Mob Rule. Just Like I would gladly trade T3 for old Grot rules as pathetic as they were.


On raw shooting the T5 boyz lose fewer points.

Still, in both scenarios you'd likely have a warboss unless they're jumping.

So that makes 15 = 60 * .833 * .5 * .5 = 12.5

And these figures only apply if you fail the morale, which is still a 33% chance to pass. So for 1 in 3 times they become -- 19 * 4 * .833 * .5 * .5 = 15.8 - just about twice as strong. Or in a critical moment you can drop 2CP to just keep the models. I know I have with Warriors. You'll also run 30 regardless of cost, which gives the T5 boyz another 6 models on top of all of this ( and 3 for the oldies ).

Obviously no one is going to limp in a boyz unit that is nearby so these outcomes will vary widely, but if you have 3 blocks they can't take them all.




Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 01:22:47


Post by: Canadian 5th


In any scenario where you're playing your boyz as an aggressive midfield force, you're forcing your opponent to cripple your brick of boyz or eat a nasty charge. In such a case an unsupported brick of T5 boyz will take more firepower to remove than a T4 blob would.

It's only in the case where you're not threatening a key unit with your boyz that your opponent has the luxury of picking off a few and letting morale act as an efficient source of removal. In this case, you're already on the back foot and have either made a deployment mistake or didn't push up the board properly. In either scenario, you're unlikely to win that game and need to examine more than just how much a unit of boyz costs to figure out what went wrong.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 01:29:36


Post by: Heafstaag


 Canadian 5th wrote:
In any scenario where you're playing your boyz as an aggressive midfield force, you're forcing your opponent to cripple your brick of boyz or eat a nasty charge. In such a case an unsupported brick of T5 boyz will take more firepower to remove than a T4 blob would.

It's only in the case where you're not threatening a key unit with your boyz that your opponent has the luxury of picking off a few and letting morale act as an efficient source of removal. In this case, you're already on the back foot and have either made a deployment mistake or didn't push up the board properly. In either scenario, you're unlikely to win that game and need to examine more than just how much a unit of boyz costs to figure out what went wrong.


Yeah, how many boyz do you expect to make it across the field anyway? I usually lose a mob of 30 before making it into combat. What really hurts is the lack of endless green tide...


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 01:34:09


Post by: Canadian 5th


Heafstaag wrote:
Yeah, how many boyz do you expect to make it across the field anyway? I usually lose a mob of 30 before making it into combat. What really hurts is the lack of endless green tide...

Nerfed KFF, not being able to refreshing a mostly dead unit of boyz, and Da Jump + 'Ere We Go being less reliable hurt way more than morale does.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 01:48:27


Post by: Eonfuzz


I'm dropping all my boyz and buying an equal amount of Beast Snaggas! Thanks Games Workshop for releasing a slightly larger kit for a unit that fills the exact same role but is better in every way! I'm so happy!


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 03:55:11


Post by: Wakshaani


A few bits here.

First, there's a raw increase of 1/8th points but 1/6th endurance (Going from 8 pts to 9 pts vs being wounded on 1 more vs most weapons)

So there's a small increase in durability here.

"But morale! You're going to los-"

Hang on.

Why are you running 30 man blobs again?

You lost the morale bonus from it. You lost the extra attacks from it. You lost the ability to bring the unit back from 1 model to 30. You gain a Nob in each unit for free, so … why not 3 units of 10 instead of 1 unit of 30?

You can keep the BIG MOB if you want to make psychic boosts a thing, at which point you'll want to keep a Warboss or some Nobs around to keep order with some ;ead crackin', but without that?

Stick to a unit of 9 lads and a Nob... bangs out the same attacks, has the same defense, but gives you more tactical flexibility, increased resistance to morale issues, and more reliable charges … three units each trying to make a 7" charge vs one BIG unit trying it means that you'll pull it off more often, even if with less bodies, making tie-ups more reliable.

New book? New rules? New tactics.

For the mathhammer folks, 8 NuBoys vs 9 OldBoys would work, but you can't get units of that size, so we'll double it instead. 16 NuBoys vs 18 OldBoys. 144 pts either way, so run all your numbers from there if you want to see the proper comparison on a points basis.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 04:49:04


Post by: vict0988


45 shots, 30 hits, 15 dead T4 Orks in a unit with 27 models, 12 left, fail morale, 5 run away, 7 left.

45 shots, 30 hits, 10 dead T5 Orks in a unit with 24 models, 14 left, fail morale, 3 run away, 11 left.

7*3 attacks, extra attacks on 6s *7/6, saving on 3s *1/3m. 5 wounds to MEQ.

11*3 attacks, extra hits on 6s *5/4, saving on 4s *1/2. 13,75 wounds to MEQ. They deal twice as much damage for the same points ZOMG ROFLCOPTER so L33T H4X0R5 OP.
Wakshaani wrote:
First, there's a raw increase of 1/8th points but 1/6th endurance (Going from 8 pts to 9 pts vs being wounded on 1 more vs most weapons)

That's not how mathhammer works. The fact that you are rolling a 6-sided dice instead of an 8-sided or 4-sided dice is irrelevant, what is relevant is the frequency with which you wounded relatively to the frequency with which you failed to wound vs the relation between the frequency with which you will wound in the future and you will fail to wound in the future.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 05:10:18


Post by: H.B.M.C.


SemperMortis wrote:
Remember how I showed you that T5 boyz at 9ppm are less durable than T4 8ppm boyz?
This is the same company that decided to showcase how tough Plague Marines are by somehow making them more vulnerable to D1 weapons, so should we be surprised?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 06:37:22


Post by: BlaxicanX


It's interesting that the fandom is honing in so much on the idea that GW deliberately made the old units worse so the new models would look more enticing, considering we have like a dozen historical examples of new models having absolute crap rules on release.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 07:13:51


Post by: Jidmah


 Daedalus81 wrote:
epronovost wrote:
Am I confusing this with AoS, but isn't there a universal strat to make a unit automatically pass a leadership test? If yes, it could mitigate some of the moral problems though it would limit the number of big mobs you can take to basically one or maybe two.

With the nerf to moral, I would be tempted to say that boyz mounted on trukks or a carpet of small units is preferable.


Yes. Orks have a second worse one. Lots of CP though.


It's not strictly worse, since you can use it after a roll. So in case you've bombed one of those tests that are possible to pass you could trade 1+1/6th moral casualties for d3 MW if it matters.
Most 9th edition stratagems are situational, not "always use this", and the few that break the rule also cause problems for the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wakshaani wrote:
Why are you running 30 man blobs again?

You lost the morale bonus from it. You lost the extra attacks from it. You lost the ability to bring the unit back from 1 model to 30. You gain a Nob in each unit for free, so … why not 3 units of 10 instead of 1 unit of 30?

You can keep the BIG MOB if you want to make psychic boosts a thing, at which point you'll want to keep a Warboss or some Nobs around to keep order with some ;ead crackin', but without that?

Stick to a unit of 9 lads and a Nob... bangs out the same attacks, has the same defense, but gives you more tactical flexibility, increased resistance to morale issues, and more reliable charges … three units each trying to make a 7" charge vs one BIG unit trying it means that you'll pull it off more often, even if with less bodies, making tie-ups more reliable.


I agree in general, but you still are somewhat limited in slots, so to get to the 120 breaking point, you would still need to bring units of 20, which still tend to lose more models to moral than which are saved by T5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:
Wakshaani wrote:
First, there's a raw increase of 1/8th points but 1/6th endurance (Going from 8 pts to 9 pts vs being wounded on 1 more vs most weapons)

That's not how mathhammer works. The fact that you are rolling a 6-sided dice instead of an 8-sided or 4-sided dice is irrelevant, what is relevant is the frequency with which you wounded relatively to the frequency with which you failed to wound vs the relation between the frequency with which you will wound in the future and you will fail to wound in the future.



Mork, can we please stop this discussion, it makes my brain hurt.

When you hit T4 100 times with a bolter, you deal 50 wounds. When you hit T5 100 times with a bolter you deal 33.33 wounds. Compared to before, you now deal 33.33/50 = 66.66% damage now. This a decrease of 16.66 wounds or 33.33% less damage taken.
When you have 100 T4 wounds, you need 200 bolter hits to wound all of them. When you have 100 T5 wounds, you need 300 bolter hits to wound them all. 300 hits are 300/200=150% of what you had to shoot before, so you need 50% more shots than before to kill them.
Both numbers are right, they are just different perspectives on the same thing.

If you are comparing efficiency you need to multiply either value for new boyz by 8/9 = 88.88% because their efficiency dropped per point. Ork boyz now cost 9/8=125.5% of what they have costed before, an increase of 12.5%.

Seriously, it's just percentages.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Remember how I showed you that T5 boyz at 9ppm are less durable than T4 8ppm boyz?
This is the same company that decided to showcase how tough Plague Marines are by somehow making them more vulnerable to D1 weapons, so should we be surprised?


Plague marines got less vulnerable to d1 weapons.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 08:00:20


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Disgusting Resilient does't help them against D1 weapons anymore.

"But they have two wou..." ... all Marines* have 2 wounds. That was a given.

*Who have a new Codex.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It's interesting that the fandom is honing in so much on the idea that GW deliberately made the old units worse so the new models would look more enticing, considering we have like a dozen historical examples of new models having absolute crap rules on release.
And as is often said, what GW try to do isn't always what they achieve. They make mistakes.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 08:21:07


Post by: Jidmah


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Disgusting Resilient does't help them against D1 weapons anymore.

"But they have two wou..." ... all Marines* have 2 wounds. That was a given.


Yes, and toughness 5. So what you wanted to say is that plague marines are in fact more resilient due to small arms weapons both compared to before and compared to other marines, just don't like it for arbitrary reasons.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 08:49:40


Post by: vict0988


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Remember how I showed you that T5 boyz at 9ppm are less durable than T4 8ppm boyz?
This is the same company that decided to showcase how tough Plague Marines are by somehow making them more vulnerable to D1 weapons, so should we be surprised?

They became 33% more durable against D1 weapons by going from 1W to 2W, there was never a 2W FNP Plague Marine unit.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 09:19:56


Post by: H.B.M.C.


My point is all Marines got W2. It's not something unique to Plague Marines. If it were, I wouldn't bring it up.

All Marines overall got more resilient, but the specialist rules for resilience that the Death Guard have didn't make them any more resilient against the things they should be resistant to.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 11:00:39


Post by: Jidmah


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My point is all Marines got W2. It's not something unique to Plague Marines. If it were, I wouldn't bring it up.

All Marines overall got more resilient, but the specialist rules for resilience that the Death Guard have didn't make them any more resilient against the things they should be resistant to.


Except for the extra point of toughness they have over all other marines, of course. And for the few weapons that actually kill both kinds of marines equally well, I doubt that you will find any support in the fluff showing that plague marines shrug them off while marines get riddled with bullets and die.

The one truth is that a plague marine are more resilient than a regular marine when it matters, and that's all that counts.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 13:18:01


Post by: G00fySmiley


I feel like this pole was a bit premature. now that we see the big picture between the ponts cost increase, the loss of mob rule, our only protection for large mobs (kff) being nerfed to 6++ and 2CP for a 5++ one turn vs shooting and then burning up i think its safe to say ork boyz are now a tax on the codex. I'll be modding some boyz to snagga boyz at least the punch better and even then probably not worth the points just a little better.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 13:38:43


Post by: Daedalus81


delete


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wakshaani wrote:
Why are you running 30 man blobs again?


Skew. Light vehicles don't appreciate chip damage. Giving something to draw out that incidental fire will keep buggies and trukks alive.

Also, a Da Jump play as well as Weirdboys cast 1 more with 20 Boyz near.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 14:32:09


Post by: SemperMortis


Oh, I agree, if you are trying to play competitively, you won't be running 30 boyz mobz anymore. At best you are going to be fielding MSU ork boyz, and more likely than that, Boyz are going to be 3x10 (Including free Nob) tax units taken to satisfy the troop requirement in order to get as many of the new squig riders and warbikes as you possibly can.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 15:17:36


Post by: Wakshaani


 Daedalus81 wrote:
delete


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wakshaani wrote:
Why are you running 30 man blobs again?


Skew. Light vehicles don't appreciate chip damage. Giving something to draw out that incidental fire will keep buggies and trukks alive.

Also, a Da Jump play as well as Weirdboys cast 1 more with 20 Boyz near.


Three squads of 10 boys should draw small arms fire just as well as one unit of 30, I'd think. People might think of them as being less dangerous, and in a way they are, having lost the +1 attack that they used to have, but picking up -1 AP instead … 30 attacks at AP -1 vs 40 at AP- comes out close to the same, but, you get a few more options with the Multiple Small Unit (MSU) approach. (also three times as many Power Klaws.)

You don't get as many lads to Jump, true, but I'm not sure if the +1 to cast is still in there. I haven't seen a spoiler for the Weirdboy yet, but I *hear* that it's gone. Need a codex on hand to know for sure.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 15:41:57


Post by: G00fySmiley


yes, the wierdboy lost the + to cast for models so the jump is harder to pull off. you forgot to mention the morale issue too lots of losses that way now. also boyz lost being able to have a melta bomb


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 20:40:53


Post by: addnid


 G00fySmiley wrote:
yes, the wierdboy lost the + to cast for models so the jump is harder to pull off. you forgot to mention the morale issue too lots of losses that way now. also boyz lost being able to have a melta bomb


And the bones relic only helps with witch fire spells apparently. To me da jump is dead. Fists of gork on the other hand pairs super well with brutal but kunning (can the fist of gork extra attacks generate additional attack if the FoG extra attacks don’t go through ? Can’t remember the druk jurisprudence exactly that made the cut in the core rules).

I don’t see myself player ork psychers much though, at least not for now. I want instead big mek mega armour with one shot KFF and the relic shoota. The rest of the hq slots are best used for our melee warbosses IMHO.

But I am certain that some players will make great use of our psychic spells. Just not me


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 21:22:38


Post by: Tyel


A Weirdboy is potentially getting 2 casts for 70 points. Yes you'll probably want to keep a CP to reroll that Da Jump roll if necessary - but that's hardly apocalyptic for an 83%~ chance to have it go off. The idea this is dead seems... incredible to me.

(Edit, initially said 3 casts which seemed a bit bananas, someone was claiming they knew 2 and could cast 2 base, rather than 1+1 for having 20 models in 12" casts. Still very potent for very few points.)

I just don't really get the negativity. My reading of this book is that its taken an army that was +/- there anyway, and just made it significantly better. We live I guess in the shadow of DE and Ad Mech, and I'm not sure its going to be quite as obnoxious as them - although I could be wrong. I think its better than anything else released so far.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/22 22:13:35


Post by: addnid


The army overall is efficient, but some things have become very unreliable, for example non witch fire psychic spells.

Warbikers, snagga riders, the hq sguigriders, are just really underpriced ATM, so a lot of other things will get pushed gradually as players find what doesn’t work, what works and what works even better.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/23 00:25:39


Post by: Heafstaag


 G00fySmiley wrote:
I feel like this pole was a bit premature. now that we see the big picture between the ponts cost increase, the loss of mob rule, our only protection for large mobs (kff) being nerfed to 6++ and 2CP for a 5++ one turn vs shooting and then burning up i think its safe to say ork boyz are now a tax on the codex. I'll be modding some boyz to snagga boyz at least the punch better and even then probably not worth the points just a little better.


I feel like that is a very premature take.

All the changes look harsh, and they are, but boyz have been the heart and soul of ork lists since the beginning of time. They die and droves, and will continue to, but if they are getting shot to gak then something else is getting in. And if enough boyz get then praise Gork and Mork!

In 9th units get obliterated- boyz are no exception! The opposing army (in my experience) always kills a ton of ork stuff- you just have kill more! (and I guess hold lame objectives, but whatever, orks are good and holding the enemy back long enough to score)


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/23 13:04:16


Post by: Daedalus81


I am going to make the case that the KFF is worthwhile.

A 5++ KFF that is within instead of wholly within would have been absurdly good. By reducing to 6++ GW is allowing you to achieve this dynamic through CP.

A Morkanaut KFF has a coverage of 24" of which you just need to dip your toe in to benefit ( of which minor rotations create a sizeable change in coverage ). Even a mek KFF covers quite an area - especially when you have bikes extending 10" out from the edge.

You only need one or maybe two turns at 5++ and then you're in combat. Beastsnaggas might have their own invuln, but it will pale to boyz under a 5++ who also have all their vehicles covered.

Lists with KFFs will be common.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/23 13:38:09


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I am going to make the case that the KFF is worthwhile.

A 5++ KFF that is within instead of wholly within would have been absurdly good. By reducing to 6++ GW is allowing you to achieve this dynamic through CP.

A Morkanaut KFF has a coverage of 24" of which you just need to dip your toe in to benefit ( of which minor rotations create a sizeable change in coverage ). Even a mek KFF covers quite an area - especially when you have bikes extending 10" out from the edge.

You only need one or maybe two turns at 5++ and then you're in combat. Beastsnaggas might have their own invuln, but it will pale to boyz under a 5++ who also have all their vehicles covered.

Lists with KFFs will be common.


Absurdly good....like it was last edition, or the edition before that when it was a 4+ Cover save? And if you want to take the Morkanaut KFF you now have to pay CP to get a super heavy detachment for it.

Also, that stratagem to buff it to what it currently is albeit with a bigger footprint...yeah its a once a game stratagem and after that turn it blows up the KFF so you can't use its 6+ again either. And just to add insult to injury, they increased its price by 10pts.

You are fundamentally wrong across the board with the KFF. Its a massive nerf to a unit that didn't need it. Hell, I used my KFF Big mek to guard my Mek Gunz artillery park...which are also no longer a thing thanks to unit size restriction and Morale becoming unbearable for large units.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/23 13:38:36


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I am going to make the case that the KFF is worthwhile.

A 5++ KFF that is within instead of wholly within would have been absurdly good. By reducing to 6++ GW is allowing you to achieve this dynamic through CP.

A Morkanaut KFF has a coverage of 24" of which you just need to dip your toe in to benefit ( of which minor rotations create a sizeable change in coverage ). Even a mek KFF covers quite an area - especially when you have bikes extending 10" out from the edge.

You only need one or maybe two turns at 5++ and then you're in combat. Beastsnaggas might have their own invuln, but it will pale to boyz under a 5++ who also have all their vehicles covered.

Lists with KFFs will be common.


you would have to take 2 to get 2 turns of a 5++, the strategem breaks the kff sadly.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/23 13:39:28


Post by: SemperMortis


 G00fySmiley wrote:


you would have to take 2 to get 2 turns of a 5++, the strategem breaks the kff sadly.


And its a once a game stratagem GW went well and truly out of their way to remind players to feth off when it came to HQ selection regarding Big Mekz with KFF.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/23 13:56:13


Post by: Daedalus81


 G00fySmiley wrote:
you would have to take 2 to get 2 turns of a 5++, the strategem breaks the kff sadly.


So it does. I still think it's a worthwhile investment. It makes it so 8MM shots go from killing a trukk to not killing a trukk. Getting advantage on trades early game will let you outlast the opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
You are fundamentally wrong across the board with the KFF. Its a massive nerf to a unit that didn't need it. Hell, I used my KFF Big mek to guard my Mek Gunz artillery park...which are also no longer a thing thanks to unit size restriction and Morale becoming unbearable for large units.


I guess we will see. A KFF Artillery parking lot is pretty gamey, sooo...


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/23 19:39:24


Post by: Blackie


 Daedalus81 wrote:


I guess we will see. A KFF Artillery parking lot is pretty gamey, sooo...


Artillery parking lot is already gone by denying mek gunz to act like individual units once deployed. This, plus bad morale and rule of three means that it's extremely unlikely to see more than 3 mek gunz in a list now.

6++ KFF now is pure garbage.

Morkanaut could easily have it but since it's LoW now we'll see way less nauts on the table.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/24 18:03:39


Post by: Nightlord1987


I might go and add Skulls from the ol Box O Skull bitz and upgrade my now extinct 'Ard Boyz into Beast Snaggaz.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/25 21:27:42


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:


I guess we will see. A KFF Artillery parking lot is pretty gamey, sooo...


Yep pretty gamey....I could have instead used lootas, which are statistically worse in every way to Imperial and chaos units. Shoota boyz who have less than half the range, none of the firepower and no chance of inflicting more than a couple wounds on a Marine for 6x the price. I could have used Tankbustas which die as soon as deployed in the open so are little more than a suicide unit. I could have used Flashgitz with their 1/2 range guns with average less strength and dmg for a similar points value. I could have used the Kannon Wagon which costs more than a Leman Russ but sucks significantly more. Yeah gamey to use a unit that was actually effective.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/25 22:54:53


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


I guess we will see. A KFF Artillery parking lot is pretty gamey, sooo...


Yep pretty gamey....I could have instead used lootas, which are statistically worse in every way to Imperial and chaos units. Shoota boyz who have less than half the range, none of the firepower and no chance of inflicting more than a couple wounds on a Marine for 6x the price. I could have used Tankbustas which die as soon as deployed in the open so are little more than a suicide unit. I could have used Flashgitz with their 1/2 range guns with average less strength and dmg for a similar points value. I could have used the Kannon Wagon which costs more than a Leman Russ but sucks significantly more. Yeah gamey to use a unit that was actually effective.


I get it. You don't like change, but individual models that are quite tough on their own also under a KFF warp how you can approach the game.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 09:13:03


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


I guess we will see. A KFF Artillery parking lot is pretty gamey, sooo...


Yep pretty gamey....I could have instead used lootas, which are statistically worse in every way to Imperial and chaos units. Shoota boyz who have less than half the range, none of the firepower and no chance of inflicting more than a couple wounds on a Marine for 6x the price. I could have used Tankbustas which die as soon as deployed in the open so are little more than a suicide unit. I could have used Flashgitz with their 1/2 range guns with average less strength and dmg for a similar points value. I could have used the Kannon Wagon which costs more than a Leman Russ but sucks significantly more. Yeah gamey to use a unit that was actually effective.


I get it. You don't like change, but individual models that are quite tough on their own also under a KFF warp how you can approach the game.


Nu orks aren't really tough tho, they are brittle hard, as in if you wound them they still die in droves, and just because most weaponry now got 1/6th less effective against them still doesn't turn the orks into anything other than brittle. If we still had the old wound chart, then yes ork boys would'be more tough but overall...

As an aside, you can do something similiar , and ironically better with CSM dark apostle ilusion prayer and cultists, pay only 5 pts more with disciples to guarantee 2+ prayers and have a better overall profile than a mek with KFF.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 09:43:21


Post by: vict0988


Not Online!!! wrote:
just because most weaponry now got 1/6th less effective against them

Can we all stop with the 1/6th? Saying they got 1/6th less effective is no more true than saying Ork Boys got 25% more durable because T5 is 25% higher than T4.

S4 wounds T4 3/6, S4 wounds T5 2/6, that makes S4 weapons 33% less effective against Boys and makes Boys 50% more durable against S4.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 10:50:55


Post by: Blackie


Cheaper T4 bodies with cheaper sources of 5++ or native 6++ are certainly more durable than more expensive T5 bodies with more expensive sources of 6++.

Not to mention vehicles that counted as individual units once deployed. The same models are now basically just taken solo, for a good reason.

Overall the army looks less durable than before, but I mean this about units that existed in the previous codex. Some of the new stuff looks pretty tough and in some cases even significantly undercosted and it's thanks to them that now orks can be considered more durable than before on average. New stuff hasn't been released yet, so at the moment I can't consider it.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 11:44:18


Post by: Not Online!!!


 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
just because most weaponry now got 1/6th less effective against them

Can we all stop with the 1/6th? Saying they got 1/6th less effective is no more true than saying Ork Boys got 25% more durable because T5 is 25% higher than T4.

S4 wounds T4 3/6, S4 wounds T5 2/6, that makes S4 weapons 33% less effective against Boys and makes Boys 50% more durable against S4.


That are some serious mental gymnastics right there.
Before a bolter had a 50% to wound an ork, now he only has 33%. That is one sixth not more not less, just because you count from the other angle makes your statement not any more accurate.

And indeed thanks to the new wounding chart since 8th there has been virtually no effect on S3 weapons aswell. Bolters still in many cases ignore the armor of the boy aswell.
So no my statement still stands.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 13:35:04


Post by: vict0988


Not Online!!! wrote:
Before a bolter had a 50% to wound an ork, now he only has 33%. That is one sixth not more not less...

One sixth of what? 50%/33%=/=17%=/=83%.

The difference between wounding on 2s vs 3s and 5s vs 6s is not the same, the absolute difference is irrelevant to how much tougher they are, only the relative difference matters. Your 1/6 nonsense only serves to confuse.

1/4 and 1/6 are equally irrelevant if you want to understand how T5 changes the durability of Boys.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 13:48:55


Post by: Jidmah


 vict0988 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Before a bolter had a 50% to wound an ork, now he only has 33%. That is one sixth not more not less...

One sixth of what? 50%/33%=/=17%=/=83%.

The difference between wounding on 2s vs 3s and 5s vs 6s is not the same, the absolute difference is irrelevant to how much tougher they are, only the relative difference matters. Your 1/6 nonsense only serves to confuse.

1/4 and 1/6 are equally irrelevant if you want to understand how T5 changes the durability of Boys.



Once again:

 Jidmah wrote:


Mork, can we please stop this discussion, it makes my brain hurt.

When you hit T4 100 times with a bolter, you deal 50 wounds. When you hit T5 100 times with a bolter you deal 33.33 wounds. Compared to before, you now deal 33.33/50 = 66.66% damage now. This a decrease of 16.66 wounds or 33.33% less damage taken.
When you have 100 T4 wounds, you need 200 bolter hits to wound all of them. When you have 100 T5 wounds, you need 300 bolter hits to wound them all. 300 hits are 300/200=150% of what you had to shoot before, so you need 50% more shots than before to kill them.
Both numbers are right, they are just different perspectives on the same thing.

If you are comparing efficiency you need to multiply either value for new boyz by 8/9 = 88.88% because their efficiency dropped per point. Ork boyz now cost 9/8=125.5% of what they have costed before, an increase of 12.5%.

Seriously, it's just percentages.


So yes, vit0988 is right, but they suck at explaining it.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 15:19:38


Post by: SemperMortis


Yep what Jidmah already said is true. 100 S4 bolter hits (assume AP-1 for ease) was 50 dead orkz, now its 33.3 dead orkz.

But I do want to point out 1 thing.

Old Orkz:
Big mek with KFF and 30 Boyz = 300pts

New Orkz:
Big Mek wtih KFF and 30 Boyz = 355pts

30 S4 Bolter HITS Vs both>

Old Orkz: 15 wounds and 10 dead Orkz. LD 20 no problems carry on.
New Orkz: 10 Wounds and 8.33 dead Orkz. LD -1. 5/6th chance you fail morale. lose 1 model, 21ish left, roll for morale and 3.5 more die. Total, just about 13.

The only way New boyz become more durable is if you completely ignore morale. To kill 30 old boyz with a 5++ it took 90 S4 hits. To kill 30 NEW boyz with a 6++ it takes 108
And here is the final shenanigans. To kill those guys with intercessors, this is your kill/point ratio Old Orkz: 4.5pts to kill 1pt of Orkz. New Orkz: 4.56pts to kill 1pt of orkz. And again, that excludes Morale.

So in general Orkz are less durable now for more points thanks to the triple whammy of price increase (minor), KFF nerf (Medium nerf) and Morale nerf (MAJOR NERF).



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 15:53:36


Post by: Jidmah


Boyz, not orks

Some of our elite units have gotten the extra toughness at no cost, and they were in dire need of it. Probably a very much intended effect.

From how it's shaping up, it's also fairly safe to assume 10 ork units for morale now. There is little reason to go over the magic 10 to enable blasts and trukk boyz, kommadoz, storm boyz and warbikers all seem to be going for multiple medium sized units to get the best of both worlds.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 16:02:27


Post by: SemperMortis


 Jidmah wrote:
Boyz, not orks

Some of our elite units have gotten the extra toughness at no cost, and they were in dire need of it. Probably a very much intended effect.

From how it's shaping up, it's also fairly safe to assume 10 ork units for morale now. There is little reason to go over the magic 10 to enable blasts and trukk boyz, kommadoz, storm boyz and warbikers all seem to be going for multiple medium sized units to get the best of both worlds.


Absolutely correct. I should have specified.

Yep, I foresee nothing but MSU orkz. What is even more pathetic is that if Orkz were allowed to take mobz of 5....we would. I'd gladly take a full brigade of troop choices of 5 model beast snagga units or even just regular boyz. Congrats to GW for taking the ORIGINAL Horde faction and destroying any chance of playing horde. good work guys.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 16:06:06


Post by: Jidmah


Are you really sad about having to push 200 models around? For what I care, good riddance!


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 16:18:37


Post by: SemperMortis


 Jidmah wrote:
Are you really sad about having to push 200 models around? For what I care, good riddance!


The pushing around part? Not so much. The hilarity that usually ensued? Absolutely! I remember walking into index 8th with a Kommando and Boyz horde and my opponents just laughing at the fact that I had all those models to deploy Or late in game when you are trying to rush things and your opponent starts just pushing your models in the general direction they need to be in It was annoying for sure but it was also a bit funny. I just am not a fan of GW nerfing boyz in general. Why couldn't they have just given us the Warbike treatment. Buff it but reduce maximum unit size to 20 or something. I mean, you could have still done a truly massive horde by taking multiple detachments but something better than making large mobz a physical nerf to your own army would have been preferable.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 16:22:31


Post by: xttz


SemperMortis wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Boyz, not orks

Some of our elite units have gotten the extra toughness at no cost, and they were in dire need of it. Probably a very much intended effect.

From how it's shaping up, it's also fairly safe to assume 10 ork units for morale now. There is little reason to go over the magic 10 to enable blasts and trukk boyz, kommadoz, storm boyz and warbikers all seem to be going for multiple medium sized units to get the best of both worlds.


Absolutely correct. I should have specified.

Yep, I foresee nothing but MSU orkz. What is even more pathetic is that if Orkz were allowed to take mobz of 5....we would. I'd gladly take a full brigade of troop choices of 5 model beast snagga units or even just regular boyz. Congrats to GW for taking the ORIGINAL Horde faction and destroying any chance of playing horde. good work guys.


Two or three 10-model units running alongside each other to activate Mob Rule could be a thing. That's still a horde, just in a different form. Plus you mitigate blasts, get more Nobz, and multiple charge rolls are more reliable than one.

Full size units can still ignore morale, there's just a CP tax on it now. I think we'll still see single mobs of 30 around.

 Jidmah wrote:
Are you really sad about having to push 200 models around? For what I care, good riddance!


Amen. This codex has me seriously looking at starting Orks for the first time because it cuts down on on time-wasting BS. Don't need 120+ basic infantry to get started, lots of rules streamlined.

I'm also really liking how there are some more meaningful differences between Ork horde and Tyranid horde now. The ones that ignore morale are easy to kill, and vice-versa.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 16:35:37


Post by: SemperMortis


 xttz wrote:


Two or three 10-model units running alongside each other to activate Mob Rule could be a thing. That's still a horde, just in a different form. Plus you mitigate blasts, get more Nobz, and multiple charge rolls are more reliable than one.

Full size units can still ignore morale, there's just a CP tax on it now. I think we'll still see single mobs of 30 around.


20 and 30 is not a horde. And "Mob Rule" is arguably the biggest nerf to the entire codex :( Horde style is at a minimum 120 Models. Horde style is you take so many models your opponent doesn't have enough Dakka to kill it fast enough. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't for everyone but it was a cool thing to do with orkz. I get that GW really wanted to minimize horde play style because its a barrier to entry for some and its hard to play against...but just limit unit size and give orkz corresponding buffs instead of fething nerfs.

Shoota boyz are literally terrible right now. Why on gods green earth would you take shoota boyz instead of more choppa boyz? Competitively it makes little to no sense.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 17:07:55


Post by: G00fySmiley


I actually sometimes liked playing a green tide for the fun of the horde. one of the funniest moments I had was against a space marine player in a tournament who had never played against orks. I got a 9 inch charge off with box cars, after the consolidation all 30 in, then i explained number of attack (ghaz was nearby goffs) and literally rolled several buckets of dice against the marines (who still almost lived) I will still probably play green tide in some open war missions for laughs and am practiced enough that a 180+ ork boyz list i can knock out a movement phase piloting it in under 5 min but looks like that skill will be atrophying this edition.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 17:10:08


Post by: Spoletta


6*20 is still an horde, and at 20 models you don't really suffer from morale. They killed 10 boyz? Oh no, I'm gonna (sometimes) lose a couple more!

Somehow there's this misunderstanding that after 10 comes 30, but there's actually 20 other possible numbers between them.

Find the size you prefer.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 17:23:23


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:
Yep what Jidmah already said is true. 100 S4 bolter hits (assume AP-1 for ease) was 50 dead orkz, now its 33.3 dead orkz.

But I do want to point out 1 thing.

Old Orkz:
Big mek with KFF and 30 Boyz = 300pts

New Orkz:
Big Mek wtih KFF and 30 Boyz = 355pts

30 S4 Bolter HITS Vs both>

Old Orkz: 15 wounds and 10 dead Orkz. LD 20 no problems carry on.
New Orkz: 10 Wounds and 8.33 dead Orkz. LD -1. 5/6th chance you fail morale. lose 1 model, 21ish left, roll for morale and 3.5 more die. Total, just about 13.

The only way New boyz become more durable is if you completely ignore morale. To kill 30 old boyz with a 5++ it took 90 S4 hits. To kill 30 NEW boyz with a 6++ it takes 108
And here is the final shenanigans. To kill those guys with intercessors, this is your kill/point ratio Old Orkz: 4.5pts to kill 1pt of Orkz. New Orkz: 4.56pts to kill 1pt of orkz. And again, that excludes Morale.

So in general Orkz are less durable now for more points thanks to the triple whammy of price increase (minor), KFF nerf (Medium nerf) and Morale nerf (MAJOR NERF).



There's a finite number of shots on the table. When we do these math hammer exercises we always just assume something exists unmolested, is in range, has LOS, and can produce the required shots - that isn't reality though.

In any case - for more direct comps - 26 old boyz and KFF are ~270. 30 new boyz are 270.

100 * .666 * .5 * .666 = 22.2
100 * .666 * .333 = 22.2

The new boyz have no KFF, but are equal in losses. Except that you're not putting the cost of the KFF into the losses. You don't get to cover a lot else when you have a 30 man fully within. In reality you paid 10.4 points for each of those old boyz under KFF. The real loss is difficult to measure, because that KFF could go cover something else and that's another area math hammer fails.

Yes, morale, but it is also trivial to reserve 2CP for the occasion when you don't roll a 1 and your next turn provides the opportunity to get stuck in.

An Ork force that leads with trukks and buggies and then reserves a 30 block until turn 2 or 3 gives the opponent a difficult unit to take out after they've taken losses and that ork unit is by no means useless while it throws up a banner or grabs octarius data twice by using a lateral jump to reposition them for the second grab ( and with good positioning the shaman shouldn't have to move much for the next cast ).


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 17:27:33


Post by: SemperMortis


Spoletta wrote:
6*20 is still an horde, and at 20 models you don't really suffer from morale. They killed 10 boyz? Oh no, I'm gonna (sometimes) lose a couple more!

Somehow there's this misunderstanding that after 10 comes 30, but there's actually 20 other possible numbers between them.

Find the size you prefer.


Its not lose 10 and than lose some to morale. Even with another unit nearby its lose 6 and have an 83% chance of failing morale. Lets look at it from a competitive stand point, Turn 1 Marine player kills 6 models in those mobz, assuming none are in teleporta or completely out of LOS. 5 will fail morale on average. That means he has killed 36 boyz from straight shooting and than managed to incidentally kill another 16-17 from Morale. Hell, lets reduce that, and say only 3 mobz were in LOS, thats still 8-9 dead boyz on top of the 18 he killed. I would argue losing 72-81pts from morale in a single turn a significant nerf when compared to last edition, to get a single mob to fail morale you needed to kill 13 at a minimum and hope there wasn't another mob nearby to take leadership from.

Morale wouldn't have been such a huge issue if Orkz had some kind of leadership mechanic to minimize its impact...like say...a Warboss or nobz unit nearby which can inflict 1MW to stop them from fleeing. Nope, instead we get a 2CP stratagem that lets you kill D3 boyz after they fail morale to stop them from fleeing, and guess what? On a unit of 20 boyz which loses 6 and has to take a morale check...You lose the same fething amount.

I'll flat out say it, the guys who wrote the ork codex had no idea wtf they were doing. Nothing synergizes correcty, situational buffs are ruined by how rare the situation is, buffs are barely anything and the nerfs are incredibly damaging. MSU orkz is going to be the only way to play orkz in the near future, that includes vehicle playstyle as well. You aren't goign to see many people running 3 Mek gunz in a single unit and god forbid if you bring Killakanz for whatever reason

MSU orkz which heavily favors the new models are going to be our competitive builds, specifically the new Squig riders. Warbikers and Koptas come out ok from this new edition as well.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 17:35:26


Post by: Wakshaani


instead of three units of 30 boys, you take 9 units of 10 boys. Mitigates morale, undercuts Blast weapons, hits plenty hard thanks to the upgraded offense, lives a bit better due to the upgraded toughness, and gives you more options in terms of MUS things, like actions, charging in different directions, etc.

Also, more free Nobs!

And if you want to use a brigade, the "nerfs" feed right into it … need lots of Troops options? 6 units of 10 boys please! I was taking them anyway! 3 heavy support choices? Hi, Mek Guns! Let me stick y'all 10" from the board corners to block Deep Strike units for virtually no cost, fill up required Heavy Support slots while I'm at it, and if you kill anything? Nice bonus! And I get HOW many Fast Attack slots? WOO HOO!

The heck with doom and gloom. You're Ork players! Take the stuff you like and throw 'em at a fight!


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 18:17:18


Post by: xttz


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yes, morale, but it is also trivial to reserve 2CP for the occasion when you don't roll a 1 and your next turn provides the opportunity to get stuck in.


A subtle effect worth pointing out is that Insane Bravery must be used before rolling morale (and is obviously single-use). However Breakin' Heads is multiple-use and lets you roll morale first, so you have a chance to pass before spending any CP.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/26 18:27:12


Post by: Galas


Actually how morale works for orks is how it should work for most people. And being honest, I have lose more marines to morale in 5 games of 9th than in all of 8th.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 01:23:17


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:


Yes, morale, but it is also trivial to reserve 2CP for the occasion when you don't roll a 1 and your next turn provides the opportunity to get stuck in.


Ah yes, the answer to all problems. Use a once a game Strat for 2 CP to save all your orkz from running throughout the game. And the new Ork stratagem which was literally an Ork trait for Nobz and Warbosses prior to this edition, is also 2CP and inflicts..D3 mortal wounds on yourself to do so. Assuming that averages out to 2, that means you are inflicting basically the same dmg as morale would have done to you, but this way you get to spend CP for the honor of hurting yourself. I'll again restate this. The guy who wrote the Ork Codex has no idea what he was doing.

 Galas wrote:
Actually how morale works for orks is how it should work for most people. And being honest, I have lose more marines to morale in 5 games of 9th than in all of 8th.

2 things.

1: I actually agree with you, the problem is that we have already had like half the codexs released and nobody else has anywhere near the morale issues as the orkz do. I have a sneaking suspicion Nidz will as well and that will be it. So yeah I agree, but since nobody else is suffering this way its a clear and present FETH YOU to orkz.

2: You've lost more Marines in 5 games of 9th to Morale than all of 8th....that is to say...you lost 1 model? Marines didn't lose models to morale in 8th unless something terribly wrong happened. And in 9th...you have to try really hard to fail morale. MSU Marines which is about 95% of Marine comp builds means you have to lose 3/5th of the unit to even have a chance at failing. LD8 on an elite unit is great, LD 7 on a horde unit is....crap. Its a helluva lot easier to kill 6 Ork boyz even at T5 and almost guarantee a failed morale check than it is to kill 3 Marines and have a 1/6 chance to fail morale.

21 S4 AP- hits to kill 6 Ork boyz, 36 hits to kill 3 Marines. And now those 6 Ork boyz cost the exact same as those 3 Space Marines.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 02:04:26


Post by: Daedalus81


I don't have the book yet as my box is delayed, but in the leaks Breakin' Heads is not once per game. If you don't want to gamble on 1 in 6 then you can auto pass, once. It's up to you to use the tools available. I have to use auto pass morale as Necrons all the time. Get used to it.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 04:58:57


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't have the book yet as my box is delayed, but in the leaks Breakin' Heads is not once per game. If you don't want to gamble on 1 in 6 then you can auto pass, once. It's up to you to use the tools available. I have to use auto pass morale as Necrons all the time. Get used to it.


The BRB strat is once per game, the new ork one is 2CP and it kills D3 boyz...or about what you would lose to morale anyway. Sacrificing 18-27pts at the cost of 2CP isn't really a good strat in my opinion.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 06:35:37


Post by: Jidmah


 Galas wrote:
Actually how morale works for orks is how it should work for most people. And being honest, I have lose more marines to morale in 5 games of 9th than in all of 8th.


IMO the problem is not about orks actually losing models to morale, but more about all the badly informed whining about how orks are now impossible to kill, while always completely ignoring that morale actually kills a bunch of them instead of effectively ignoring the morale phase like the old codex did

Ever after the leaks started coming in, I have read so many people who never concerned themselves with orks in the last year suddenly become "experts" on how to play them and how OP they are. Of course, almost all of them applying armchair marine logic to orks which has always been a proven way to completely fail with them. So many stupid and badly informed posts...
Seriously, I can't wait for GK/TS to drop so this crowd goes away to be experts on the next thing.

Sorry for the rant, it's not directed at you, Galas. Just annoyed in general.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 06:54:45


Post by: epronovost


SemperMortis wrote:
Shoota boyz are literally terrible right now. Why on gods green earth would you take shoota boyz instead of more choppa boyz? Competitively it makes little to no sense.


I think you can make something interesting or at least viable with the Bad Moon Klan trait. Two shots at 24 range even if they hit on 5+ is still fairly respectable, the equivalent of a single shot at 3+ which is what most troop units sport at that range and the three shots at 12 is still fairly good. Plus the extra little point of AP on a 6 to wound is always nice to throw around. The fact that this trait affects all dakka and all heavy weapons make it so that you up a bit the game of some other ork weapons carried by boys like big shoota and rokkit. That seems like an interesting idea to to me. It's not cutting edge competitive, but its far from looking like suicide.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 08:46:43


Post by: Jidmah


epronovost wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Shoota boyz are literally terrible right now. Why on gods green earth would you take shoota boyz instead of more choppa boyz? Competitively it makes little to no sense.


I think you can make something interesting or at least viable with the Bad Moon Klan trait. Two shots at 24 range even if they hit on 5+ is still fairly respectable, the equivalent of a single shot at 3+ which is what most troop units sport at that range and the three shots at 12 is still fairly good. Plus the extra little point of AP on a 6 to wound is always nice to throw around. The fact that this trait affects all dakka and all heavy weapons make it so that you up a bit the game of some other ork weapons carried by boys like big shoota and rokkit. That seems like an interesting idea to to me. It's not cutting edge competitive, but its far from looking like suicide.


I appreciate your optimism, but that kind of shooting isn't even in the ballpark of "fairly good", but pretty much completely worthless. 6.66 S4 AP0 hits really don't threaten anything (1 damage to marines, 3 dead guardsmen, almost no damage to anything durable) and is definitely not worth 90 points. I know this specific problem very well, because my plague marines are also armed with S4 AP0 bolters which rarely amount to anything ever.

If you are already running bad moons for other reasons, a 30" rokkit might be useful for a unit dedicated to camping your home objective, but outside of that I really see no reason to ever bring shoota boyz.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 12:53:12


Post by: Daedalus81


 Jidmah wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Actually how morale works for orks is how it should work for most people. And being honest, I have lose more marines to morale in 5 games of 9th than in all of 8th.


IMO the problem is not about orks actually losing models to morale, but more about all the badly informed whining about how orks are now impossible to kill, while always completely ignoring that morale actually kills a bunch of them instead of effectively ignoring the morale phase like the old codex did

Ever after the leaks started coming in, I have read so many people who never concerned themselves with orks in the last year suddenly become "experts" on how to play them and how OP they are. Of course, almost all of them applying armchair marine logic to orks which has always been a proven way to completely fail with them. So many stupid and badly informed posts...
Seriously, I can't wait for GK/TS to drop so this crowd goes away to be experts on the next thing.

Sorry for the rant, it's not directed at you, Galas. Just annoyed in general.


You know a book will be decent when half the people say it is totally OP and the other half say it is trash.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 12:57:48


Post by: Jidmah


Haha, true.

Personally, I'm very happy with the book, outside of the boatload of rules oversights. But those will be FAQed and then not affect me for the next three years or so.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 12:58:43


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Actually how morale works for orks is how it should work for most people. And being honest, I have lose more marines to morale in 5 games of 9th than in all of 8th.


IMO the problem is not about orks actually losing models to morale, but more about all the badly informed whining about how orks are now impossible to kill, while always completely ignoring that morale actually kills a bunch of them instead of effectively ignoring the morale phase like the old codex did

Ever after the leaks started coming in, I have read so many people who never concerned themselves with orks in the last year suddenly become "experts" on how to play them and how OP they are. Of course, almost all of them applying armchair marine logic to orks which has always been a proven way to completely fail with them. So many stupid and badly informed posts...
Seriously, I can't wait for GK/TS to drop so this crowd goes away to be experts on the next thing.

Sorry for the rant, it's not directed at you, Galas. Just annoyed in general.


You know a book will be decent when half the people say it is totally OP and the other half say it is trash.


I think overall the book is not terrible, its just ork troops are now bad. Gretchin are likely still the worst troop in the game which might have been ok when they were 3 points per model, but now its 5 points and they gained 1 toughness, lost 1 armor and got a morale debuff. personally i'll be running mostly ourrider detachments since outs strategems are pretty terrible so i have the cp to spend and I think squig buggy and biker armies will do well


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 13:03:19


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:

Ah yes, the answer to all problems. Use a once a game Strat for 2 CP to save all your orkz from running throughout the game. And the new Ork stratagem which was literally an Ork trait for Nobz and Warbosses prior to this edition, is also 2CP and inflicts..D3 mortal wounds on yourself to do so. Assuming that averages out to 2, that means you are inflicting basically the same dmg as morale would have done to you, but this way you get to spend CP for the honor of hurting yourself. I'll again restate this. The guy who wrote the Ork Codex has no idea what he was doing.


Whether or not it does the same is up to other battlefield modifiers and dice.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 13:17:53


Post by: Tyel


Shoota Boyz are bad. You can squint, but hard maths just laughs.

It may be thinking like a Space Marine - but the problem is the Boy is massively geared to punch things, even with a Shoota.

Lets imagine you call a Waaagh, because you are probably going to for the relevant 2 turns. So your regular Shoota Boy has 3 attacks. Considered base, he does twice as much damage to a Marine with his fists as he does with his Shoota in 12".

By contrast, the 4 attack Choppa Boy does 12 times as much damage with his Choppa as he does with his Slugga. So the Choppa boy gives up almost nothing by advancing to charge - while the Shoota gives up a third of his damage output.

In terms of output, the Shoota shooting and charging would expect to do 0.5 wounds to a Marine - while the Choppa does 0.7222 if he shoots his Slugga too, or 0.666 if he doesn't. At 40%~ this is an obvious and significant capability gap, which would perhaps make more sense if the Shoota boy did more damage from shooting (so could contribute at range, or in earlier turns) - but he doesn't. Using the Shoota as a pure shooting unit is horrible - doing just 0.166 wounds to a Marine. On an Intercessor thats less than an 18% return - utterly awful.

But things then get worse.

Its hard to quantify the +6" range for Bad Moons. But lets go with optimal circumstances where it won't matter (because throwing 2 shots at something in excess of 18-24 away is obviously meaningless). So you get 3 shots off with the -1AP on 6s to wound. This ups your shooting damage by 7/6. But as we said, 2/3rds of a turn's damage output versus Marines is from assault and you get no bonus there at all. So in an optimised turn of shooting and charging, your Bad Moons Shoota Boy is just 5.5% better than a regular non-Clan Shoota Boy.

You can tell where this is going - our friend the Goth Choppa Boy. Rather than 0.7222 wounds on a SM for shooting and charging, he gets 1.166 due to 6s being an extra hit and going from S4 to S5. (Or 0.66->1.11 for just assault) That is a 61% increase in output over the regular boy. (If we assume you would ditch the Slugga for advancing and charging, its a 66% uplift). These are not remotely comparable boosts.

We are at a possible 1.16 wounds to a Marine - versus just 0.5277 for the Shoota Boy. If you want to try and avoid combat, a Bad Moons Shoota Boy has to fire 17 times to roughly expect to do equal the damage to Marines caused by one 4 attack Goth Choppa on the charge. You could argue this is special pleading - but surely its pointing out the impossibility of Shootas ever achieving anything worthwhile *as Shootas*.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 13:17:59


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

Ah yes, the answer to all problems. Use a once a game Strat for 2 CP to save all your orkz from running throughout the game. And the new Ork stratagem which was literally an Ork trait for Nobz and Warbosses prior to this edition, is also 2CP and inflicts..D3 mortal wounds on yourself to do so. Assuming that averages out to 2, that means you are inflicting basically the same dmg as morale would have done to you, but this way you get to spend CP for the honor of hurting yourself. I'll again restate this. The guy who wrote the Ork Codex has no idea what he was doing.


Whether or not it does the same is up to other battlefield modifiers and dice.


Conveniently going around the point being made. Ork boyz in anything but MSU aren't going to be a thing except in extremely rare niche cases. T5 does not magically make boyz durable just like AP-1 to choppas by itself doesn't make boyz great in CC. The Morale issue by itself destroyed the durability buff of T5, the KFF debuff wasn't as impactful but its points increase teamed with its nerf from a 5+ to a 6+ means its functionally useless. And here is the kicker, you can sit there and defend morale to the heavens because you can spend 2CP to make boyz ignore morale once a game or you can spend another 2 CP to make them suffer D3 mortal wounds and than pass morale but its not honest. And the KFF? Why would I take an 85pt unit that is functionally useless except at providing a 6+ Invuln save to a 6' bubble when I could just take the points saved from NOT taking that unit and be able to upgrade 42.5 boyz into Beast Snagga Boyz which get a 6+ invuln AND S5 base.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 13:49:47


Post by: Daedalus81


I don't think I am?

AP1 does make Boyz better in melee.

Why not Snaggas?

- Boyz can come in 30s instead of 20
- When S5 will be overkill or not as useful as more bodies
- When you want to save 20 to 40 points on a single unit

A 6++ means you have 23.3 models, roughly. That 20 models is 220. You could instead have 28 boyz, which eclipses that invulnerable save.

20 Snaggas do 13.3 to marines. 28 Boyz do 14.

I do not know if the days of 120 to 150 boyz are gone, but I will bet that some people will find use for a 30 boy mob.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 14:09:53


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think I am?

AP1 does make Boyz better in melee.
Cool, This is known as a strawman argument. My wording was
AP-1 to choppas by itself doesn't make boyz great in CC
And AP-1 to choppas DOES NOT make ork boyz by itself "GREAT" in CC. 20 Boyz atm is 80 attacks, 53.3ish hits, 26.6ish wounds and 8.8 dmg vs Marines. 17.7 New Orkz (Same price) is 53.3 attacks, 35.5 hits 17.7 wounds and 8.8dmg vs Marines. Hooray its the same. AP-1 equals out for Orkz with the Price increase and the loss of +1 attack for 20+ models. So in smaller units its slightly better but it has to be because you can't take 30 choppa boyz anymore thanks to the nerfs to Orkz. Da jump them turn 1 or Deep strike turn 2? Good luck, you have about a 47% chance of getting that charge off, and if you fail? Congrats you just lost a 270pt unit for no benefit except as a distraction carnifex/bullet sponge.
Going to walk them up the board instead to save on CP? Still not going to be big units because a competent opponent will just trigger the 83% morale failure by simply killing 6 boyz which isn't that hard to do.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Why not Snaggas?

- Boyz can come in 30s instead of 20
- When S5 will be overkill or not as useful as more bodies
- When you want to save 20 to 40 points on a single unit

A 6++ means you have 23.3 models, roughly. That 20 models is 220. You could instead have 28 boyz, which eclipses that invulnerable save.

20 Snaggas do 13.3 to marines. 28 Boyz do 14.

Another Strawman. I didn't say "Why not Snaggas" The actual question was
And the KFF? Why would I take an 85pt unit that is functionally useless except at providing a 6+ Invuln save to a 6' bubble when I could just take the points saved from NOT taking that unit and be able to upgrade 42.5 boyz into Beast Snagga Boyz which get a 6+ invuln AND S5 base.


So it wouldn't be 20 Snaggas Vs 28 Boyz it would be 42.5 Beast Snaggas Vs an 85pt Big Mek and 42.5 Boyz. The point was that a KFF Big Mek provides a 6+ Invuln Save, and to equal the coverage of what Beast SNaggas Normally get you would need to cover 42.5 boyz just to equal their durability. Add in the difference in Damage output and suddenly you realize there isn't much of a point to taking boyz and a KFF when you could just take Beast Snagga boyz who will be more able to move around the table and receive their buffs.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I do not know if the days of 120 to 150 boyz are gone, but I will bet that some people will find use for a 30 boy mob.
The days of 120-150 boyz might not be over, but the days of 30 boyz in a mob are absolutely over. Its a giant liability at this point.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 14:15:13


Post by: G00fySmiley


On beast snaggas I bought a couple of the new boxes so have 40 of them to play with once built and will be converting some older boyz. that said a 22% increase for +1str and ignore wounds on a 6 is questionably worth it. I have not put it on the table to try so will not call it terrible until i try it a few times but initial impression is probably not worth it in most lists. ap-1 for choppas is certainly somethign they gave orks but if i could have mod rule back to lose the ap-1 i would take that trade in a heartbeat


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 14:19:32


Post by: Karol


Maybe the new orks should be run like DG, multiple detachments with grots or cheap msu as troops, and maxing out on the specialists stuff and characters. Something like a killer kan doesn't look that great even at the 40 odd points it costs, but when it is run alongside multiple other vehicles it could work, at least as long people don't take the anti vehicle secondary.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 14:28:26


Post by: the_scotsman


SemperMortis wrote:


So it wouldn't be 20 Snaggas Vs 28 Boyz it would be 42.5 Beast Snaggas Vs an 85pt Big Mek and 42.5 Boyz. The point was that a KFF Big Mek provides a 6+ Invuln Save, and to equal the coverage of what Beast SNaggas Normally get you would need to cover 42.5 boyz just to equal their durability. Add in the difference in Damage output and suddenly you realize there isn't much of a point to taking boyz and a KFF when you could just take Beast Snagga boyz who will be more able to move around the table and receive their buffs.


There are still reasons to take larger mobs, primarily they're based around objectives. Namely Green Tide and Smash em Good or whatever the 'kill more in melee' one is called.

Fewer, larger units can make it a lot easier to score those secondary points. I definitely agree with you that I think "ghazzy surrounded by 200 boyz sitting under a kff with an attendant dok" is probably not a tournament winning setup, but I think you will see a competitive skew list making excellent use of kommandos and 'I've got a plan ladz' trait from blood axes doing some nasty nasty control gameplay business. Between dead sneaky, ive got a plan ladz, infiltrating kommandos and da jump, blood axes can have waves and waves of cheap T5 bodies basically popping up like daisies all over the battlefield. don't know if it'd be worth taking 30, for the gameplay you want to do you probably want 20-man boyz mobs and your kommando mobs are gonna be 15 of course. But it's still 100% something people are gonna make use of.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 14:29:51


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:

Another Strawman. I didn't say "Why not Snaggas" The actual question was
And the KFF? Why would I take an 85pt unit that is functionally useless except at providing a 6+ Invuln save to a 6' bubble when I could just take the points saved from NOT taking that unit and be able to upgrade 42.5 boyz into Beast Snagga Boyz which get a 6+ invuln AND S5 base.


So it wouldn't be 20 Snaggas Vs 28 Boyz it would be 42.5 Beast Snaggas Vs an 85pt Big Mek and 42.5 Boyz. The point was that a KFF Big Mek provides a 6+ Invuln Save, and to equal the coverage of what Beast SNaggas Normally get you would need to cover 42.5 boyz just to equal their durability. Add in the difference in Damage output and suddenly you realize there isn't much of a point to taking boyz and a KFF when you could just take Beast Snagga boyz who will be more able to move around the table and receive their buffs.


*sigh*

It's a math hammer failing to take a full KFF and apply it only to a single unit. That's not how it would work - especially not now that it covers far more ground. And you kind of just totally ran by the point that boyz are cost efficient enough that they don't need to 6++ to make up for what Snaggas have.

We've done enough math hammer so I won't bother diving into the rest. If one is willing they can construct whatever scenario they think proves their point.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 14:55:20


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:


*sigh*

It's a math hammer failing to take a full KFF and apply it only to a single unit. That's not how it would work - especially not now that it covers far more ground. And you kind of just totally ran by the point that boyz are cost efficient enough that they don't need to 6++ to make up for what Snaggas have.

We've done enough math hammer so I won't bother diving into the rest. If one is willing they can construct whatever scenario they think proves their point.

I talked about Morale being a crushing nerf to Orkz. Your response was to just spend a boat load of CP on them to not run away...forgetting that its a once a game Strat and the new ork one which isn't a once a game strat inflicts the same dmg but gives you the privilege of spending CP to do it yourself.

I talked about how the KFF nerf was a big deal. Your response was that it covers more boyz with a smaller buff. I then pointed out that for the same price as a KFF big mek you could just upgrade 42.5 of those boyz to be Beast snaggas and also gain S5 as well as the 6+ as well as not having to daisy chain back to a useless character. Your response? it can cover more boyz....

Bud, your points aren't feasible in a real game. You aren't going to be daisy chaining mobz of 30 to a Big mek KFF anymore because you aren't going to want to take much more than MSU boyz thanks to the morale nerf. Even if you could, it would defeat the entire purpose of those boyz thanks to losing so much dmg in CC because you now have half the mob daisy chaining back to a useless big mek....all for hte benefit of a 6++ Invuln.




Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/27 15:26:36


Post by: Daedalus81


I don't know what to tell you.

You're constructing scenarios that don't apply to the real game and attempting to force cost considerations to a single group of boyz. That isn't real world.

We'll just have to see what pops out in the next few months.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/28 00:19:23


Post by: Canadian 5th


SemperMortis wrote:
I talked about Morale being a crushing nerf to Orkz. Your response was to just spend a boat load of CP on them to not run away...forgetting that its a once a game Strat and the new ork one which isn't a once a game strat inflicts the same dmg but gives you the privilege of spending CP to do it yourself.

In what realistic scenario is an opponent going to put 6~ wounds into each of your 4 units of 30 boyz to let morale kill them off "efficiently"? In my experience, people tend to remove an entire unit (or near enough as to make little difference) or leave it untouched. Yes, there will be cases where you lose a few boyz to some leftover shooting and lose a few more to morale but that isn't what's going to make boyz unviable.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/28 01:33:16


Post by: SemperMortis


 Canadian 5th wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I talked about Morale being a crushing nerf to Orkz. Your response was to just spend a boat load of CP on them to not run away...forgetting that its a once a game Strat and the new ork one which isn't a once a game strat inflicts the same dmg but gives you the privilege of spending CP to do it yourself.

In what realistic scenario is an opponent going to put 6~ wounds into each of your 4 units of 30 boyz to let morale kill them off "efficiently"? In my experience, people tend to remove an entire unit (or near enough as to make little difference) or leave it untouched. Yes, there will be cases where you lose a few boyz to some leftover shooting and lose a few more to morale but that isn't what's going to make boyz unviable.


Honest answer? Turn 1. Boyz on the board are not a threat turn 1. At all. Da Jump was incidentally nerfed in 2 different ways. 1: The weirdboy lost +1-3 on casting for being near boyz so its harder to get the 7 to go off and 2: They changed the wording of "ere we go" so you have to re-roll both dice which gives you less than a 50% chance to make your 9' charge. ...and technically 3, they got rid of +1 to charge for Evil Sunz so you can't even get those sweet 8' charges.

So turn 1 if you face an opponent who knows what he is doing, he will split fire onto several boyz mobz to maximize morale dmg before he does his required focus fire on more legitimate threats.

After that it will be situational at best.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/28 03:42:57


Post by: Jarms48


Except for the extra point of toughness they have over all other marines, of course. And for the few weapons that actually kill both kinds of marines equally well, I doubt that you will find any support in the fluff showing that plague marines shrug them off while marines get riddled with bullets and die.

The one truth is that a plague marine are more resilient than a regular marine when it matters, and that's all that counts.


Pretty sure they've almost always been T5. Even in prior editions they were T4(5), which meant that S8 or 9 could instant death them.

That's another reason why no-one is saying it's a buff, because they already had it.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/28 06:27:37


Post by: Commissar Yarrork


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't know what to tell you.

You're constructing scenarios that don't apply to the real game and attempting to force cost considerations to a single group of boyz. That isn't real world.

We'll just have to see what pops out in the next few months.


How many things is my KFF going to reasonably be covering with a 6" range though? 2 units of boyz? Some vehicles for a single turn before they outrun him (you can buy an extra buggy instead)?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/28 07:42:26


Post by: Jidmah


 Canadian 5th wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I talked about Morale being a crushing nerf to Orkz. Your response was to just spend a boat load of CP on them to not run away...forgetting that its a once a game Strat and the new ork one which isn't a once a game strat inflicts the same dmg but gives you the privilege of spending CP to do it yourself.

In what realistic scenario is an opponent going to put 6~ wounds into each of your 4 units of 30 boyz to let morale kill them off "efficiently"? In my experience, people tend to remove an entire unit (or near enough as to make little difference) or leave it untouched. Yes, there will be cases where you lose a few boyz to some leftover shooting and lose a few more to morale but that isn't what's going to make boyz unviable.


The reason why people are completely wiping out boyz are the current rules - both mob rule and the Endless Green Tide make wiping out units instead of hurting many the correct decision. With the new codex there is no advantage in doing that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commissar Yarrork wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't know what to tell you.

You're constructing scenarios that don't apply to the real game and attempting to force cost considerations to a single group of boyz. That isn't real world.

We'll just have to see what pops out in the next few months.


How many things is my KFF going to reasonably be covering with a 6" range though? 2 units of boyz? Some vehicles for a single turn before they outrun him (you can buy an extra buggy instead)?


In 5th when the KFF also was "within 6" you could reasonable expect it to cover 2 units at all times and sometimes a third one.

Since the naut basically left competitive gameplay with its LoW status and the wazbomm no longer having a KFF, the only reasonable unit that could bring a KFF would be the MA big mek, because he can take a rather good relic to go with his BS 4+ and is a decent fight with PK. Whether that is worth bringing such an expensive HQ that also eats a relic remains to be seen.

The regular big mek with KFF essentially was "soft-legended". Bringing a model just for the KFF is a complete waste of points.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/28 11:51:25


Post by: the_scotsman


Yeah, I'm going to try out a MA mek with a KFF a couple times just to see if the 'oh shoot I didnt get first turn' insurance is worth it. Basically bring him as a shooty second HQ (heck, it's not like I actually need CPs given how trash our strats are, I might as well just give everyone a relic...) and slap the KFF on him just to pop the 'your kff only works once' stratagem if my opponent wins the roll off to go first.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/28 11:59:19


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Canadian 5th wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I talked about Morale being a crushing nerf to Orkz. Your response was to just spend a boat load of CP on them to not run away...forgetting that its a once a game Strat and the new ork one which isn't a once a game strat inflicts the same dmg but gives you the privilege of spending CP to do it yourself.

In what realistic scenario is an opponent going to put 6~ wounds into each of your 4 units of 30 boyz to let morale kill them off "efficiently"? In my experience, people tend to remove an entire unit (or near enough as to make little difference) or leave it untouched. Yes, there will be cases where you lose a few boyz to some leftover shooting and lose a few more to morale but that isn't what's going to make boyz unviable.


As Jidmah said, that was due to the old ork toolkit. we had mob rule so would not really fail morale easily and green tide existed so if you leave a couple boyz on the board I get them all back. I play with one foot in narrative/open war 9my preferred style) and the other with tournament players helping them prep for events all around the US. The new competitive way to deal with boyz horde is basically a few easy steps to victory
1. deploy your forces fairly back, yes you will be delaying some mission points but the tradeoff is worth it and its easy to max secondaries against a horde.
2. kill 6-7 boyz per mob turn 1 from each mob then move on, if the took trukk boyz (can also be nobz) special culture that needs to die turn 1. once you have ensured morale losses on every boyz squad allocate fire towards front most units.
3. turn 2 each mod should now be at ~half strength post morale losses against most competitive lists, move up to grab objectives and again take out 6-7 boyz per squad first as priority then loop back to finish the rest if you have the firepower.

most armies will not have a problem doing the above and all current upper tier factions will find it trivially easy to do. I have 7 matches now trying to make the new beast snagga boyz and while that is not enough for a proper evaluation me preliminary thoughts here are... they are not great. they do damage if they get into combat but rarely do they get there against a strong list for the same reasons as normal boyz for similar reasons.

special hats off to GW on grots, they went from one of the worst units in the game to being even worse in the next codex. to run them effectively they need a runtherd ad to score secondaries cannot clump so effectively they are close enough to boyz costs that you should just take min squad sizes of (not great but better) boyz. Gretchin really have zero place in any list now.

Note this is not to say Orks do not have competitive anti-meta builds, thier troops are just garbage. I think orks will end up in the upper middle tier as a spoiler army who will gate keep some lists and take some smaller events. They lack the tools to deal with admech, Drukari, and are sadly fairly well countered by current marines lists very well without needing to modify anything (the tools to beat admech and drukari also apply to the ork buggy and squig lists). Overall we are about in the same spot as we were pre codex but needing to buy some new models to make it work which isn't the worst place to be.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/28 12:34:43


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I like Squigs.

Squigs are the best thing ever in all of Sci-Fi or Fantasy.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/28 12:44:14


Post by: the_scotsman


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I like Squigs.

Squigs are the best thing ever in all of Sci-Fi or Fantasy.


...I wish theyd just given rules for squigs tho. Just use the gloomspite squig herd models.

I mean, that's what I'm going to use for my 'beast snagga boyz' but whatever.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/28 12:57:26


Post by: Grimskul


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I like Squigs.

Squigs are the best thing ever in all of Sci-Fi or Fantasy.


Ah, I see you are a boy of kultur as well

I am really glad they expanded the squigs into an actual range for 40k Orks, though I think they missed an opportunity to just make the Kill Rig a squiggoth to be honest.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/28 14:06:50


Post by: Daedalus81


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I like Squigs.

Squigs are the best thing ever in all of Sci-Fi or Fantasy.


Close, but not quite. Snotlings.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/28 14:51:16


Post by: Jidmah


Squigbuggy has both


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 11:00:15


Post by: SemperMortis


Should probably redo this poll in another month or so once people get a chance to see how good/bad boyz are going to be. I personally still believe Morale is going to be the death of mobz over 10 with 12 being the biggest number likely seen


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 11:21:34


Post by: koooaei


Trukkboyz seem ok on paper. But if it'll be possible to run meganobz as trukkboyz, they'll loose this role too. I don't know, it seems that running 2*10 grots is better than 10 boyz for pure backfield scoring.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 11:41:09


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Grimskul wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I like Squigs.

Squigs are the best thing ever in all of Sci-Fi or Fantasy.


Ah, I see you are a boy of kultur as well

I am really glad they expanded the squigs into an actual range for 40k Orks, though I think they missed an opportunity to just make the Kill Rig a squiggoth to be honest.


It is pleasing to see. 40K has been thin on the squiggly ground for much too long.

As for using Squigs as Beast Snaggas? There’s a very significant size difference between the two!


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 11:44:11


Post by: the_scotsman


 koooaei wrote:
Trukkboyz seem ok on paper. But if it'll be possible to run meganobz as trukkboyz, they'll loose this role too. I don't know, it seems that running 2*10 grots is better than 10 boyz for pure backfield scoring.


You kind of need to bring at least one troops slot, so I do think we will see a lot of Trukk Boyz personally (once they, you know, fix how they work...) the main thing I just can't see working is shoota boyz.

They increased their firepower, a little bit, 3 shots instead of 2 if you're within 9" range, but they also removed the ability to advance and shoot and they kept the 18" range, which means conveniently if you use any method to get shoota boyz into engagement range besides mounting them up in a trukk, you're not getting dakka.

In my eyes the best way to make use of bigger than 10 blobs is the various outflank/deep strike/da jump mechanics out there, but ALL of them are 'set up over 9" away' which basically just makes shoota boyz doa. It's simply not worth 185pts for a trukk, a squad of shoota boyz, and a big shoota to put out a grand total of 11 S4 Ap- D1 hits and 1.6 S5 Ap- D1 hits.

Especially when units like Warbikers are sitting right there one slot away, and 175pts of those dumps out 23 S5 Ap- d1 hits, while also moving faster, and also suffering less from morale, and also benefitting from the Speedwaagh ability which shoota boyz (probably) cannot, because for some reason GW decided 'i know, a new type of waaagh that works on these new Dakka weapons we handed every unit! And we'll go ahead and limit it to only VEHICLE and BIKER keyword models!'


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 11:56:44


Post by: SemperMortis


 the_scotsman wrote:


You kind of need to bring at least one troops slot, so I do think we will see a lot of Trukk Boyz personally (once they, you know, fix how they work...) the main thing I just can't see working is shoota boyz.

They increased their firepower, a little bit, 3 shots instead of 2 if you're within 9" range, but they also removed the ability to advance and shoot and they kept the 18" range, which means conveniently if you use any method to get shoota boyz into engagement range besides mounting them up in a trukk, you're not getting dakka.

In my eyes the best way to make use of bigger than 10 blobs is the various outflank/deep strike/da jump mechanics out there, but ALL of them are 'set up over 9" away' which basically just makes shoota boyz doa. It's simply not worth 185pts for a trukk, a squad of shoota boyz, and a big shoota to put out a grand total of 11 S4 Ap- D1 hits and 1.6 S5 Ap- D1 hits.

Especially when units like Warbikers are sitting right there one slot away, and 175pts of those dumps out 23 S5 Ap- d1 hits, while also moving faster, and also suffering less from morale, and also benefitting from the Speedwaagh ability which shoota boyz (probably) cannot, because for some reason GW decided 'i know, a new type of waaagh that works on these new Dakka weapons we handed every unit! And we'll go ahead and limit it to only VEHICLE and BIKER keyword models!'


I've seen a lot of people harping on about how internally balanced the Ork codex appears. I think they are dead wrong for your above stated reason. On top of that, now that a lot of the glitter has washed away, I am noticing how crap a lot of our units are. I really thought the dakkajet was going to be amazing, but it only averages 4dmg a turn against Marines. Thats a 120pt unit being required to get within 18' range and only managing 36pts of dmg against a Marine player in 1 turn. I mean, during the speed Waaaagh (if that is the way you decide to go) it goes up to 6.2 but...whoopdeedoo? Same thing for those Warbikes. Turn 1 they are likely only getting 6 shots each which means on average a unit of 5 will get you 30 shots, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds and 2.2dmg vs Marines. That is actually WORSE than the dakkajet. When you do get within 9' range they go up to 3.7, but that is still worse than the Dakkajet. Comparitively 2 Deffkoptas cost 25pts less and average 4.4dmg with their rokkitz.

I think we are yet again a victim of GW not understanding how crap BS5+ is. Give our guns to Marines and its amazing, the dakkajet like I said goes from 4dmg vs Marines to 8dmg. Those Warbikes at long range go from 2.2 dmg to 4.4 and at short range its 7.4 Those are respectable numbers, not what we currently have.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 13:11:05


Post by: Catulle


 Jidmah wrote:
Squigbuggy has both


Naturally!

#besthundredpointsinthegame


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 13:11:48


Post by: koooaei


But you're going for speedwaaagh anyways. Jet is great for popping that freeboota +1 to hit off a unit out of Los that your squig buggy couldn't deal with.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 13:22:49


Post by: SemperMortis


 koooaei wrote:
But you're going for speedwaaagh anyways. Jet is great for popping that freeboota +1 to hit off a unit out of Los that your squig buggy couldn't deal with.


Assuming SpeedWaaagh, assuming Freeboota+1 assuming Dakka range. You end up with 42 shots, 21 hits, 14 wounds and 9.3ish dmg. That is 4.5 dead Marines. That is a lot of things that have to go off to get a dakkajet to perform to the point where its killing 72pts of Marines in a single turn. On top of that, the SpeedWaaagh is only 1 turn, turn 2 it goes to 36 shots(assuming still in dakka range) 18 hits(assuming Freeboota+1), 12 wounds and 6dmg. Basically to earn your points back you need to have all of those buffs and be alive turn 1 and 2. I played a game recently where I had 2 Burnabommas never make it out of my deployment zone because my opponent killed both as well as a host of other things turn 1. So assuming a dakkajet survives for 2 turns isn't a sure thing to say the least.

To put it bluntly i'm beginning to think the entire premise of the "Speed Waaagh" is 1 mislabeled, its a dakkawaaagh and 2, is a trap choice do to how piss poor ork shooting is and how bad the actual dakka weapons are.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 13:26:24


Post by: the_scotsman


SemperMortis wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


You kind of need to bring at least one troops slot, so I do think we will see a lot of Trukk Boyz personally (once they, you know, fix how they work...) the main thing I just can't see working is shoota boyz.

They increased their firepower, a little bit, 3 shots instead of 2 if you're within 9" range, but they also removed the ability to advance and shoot and they kept the 18" range, which means conveniently if you use any method to get shoota boyz into engagement range besides mounting them up in a trukk, you're not getting dakka.

In my eyes the best way to make use of bigger than 10 blobs is the various outflank/deep strike/da jump mechanics out there, but ALL of them are 'set up over 9" away' which basically just makes shoota boyz doa. It's simply not worth 185pts for a trukk, a squad of shoota boyz, and a big shoota to put out a grand total of 11 S4 Ap- D1 hits and 1.6 S5 Ap- D1 hits.

Especially when units like Warbikers are sitting right there one slot away, and 175pts of those dumps out 23 S5 Ap- d1 hits, while also moving faster, and also suffering less from morale, and also benefitting from the Speedwaagh ability which shoota boyz (probably) cannot, because for some reason GW decided 'i know, a new type of waaagh that works on these new Dakka weapons we handed every unit! And we'll go ahead and limit it to only VEHICLE and BIKER keyword models!'


I've seen a lot of people harping on about how internally balanced the Ork codex appears. I think they are dead wrong for your above stated reason. On top of that, now that a lot of the glitter has washed away, I am noticing how crap a lot of our units are. I really thought the dakkajet was going to be amazing, but it only averages 4dmg a turn against Marines. Thats a 120pt unit being required to get within 18' range and only managing 36pts of dmg against a Marine player in 1 turn. I mean, during the speed Waaaagh (if that is the way you decide to go) it goes up to 6.2 but...whoopdeedoo? Same thing for those Warbikes. Turn 1 they are likely only getting 6 shots each which means on average a unit of 5 will get you 30 shots, 10 hits, 6.6 wounds and 2.2dmg vs Marines. That is actually WORSE than the dakkajet. When you do get within 9' range they go up to 3.7, but that is still worse than the Dakkajet. Comparitively 2 Deffkoptas cost 25pts less and average 4.4dmg with their rokkitz.

I think we are yet again a victim of GW not understanding how crap BS5+ is. Give our guns to Marines and its amazing, the dakkajet like I said goes from 4dmg vs Marines to 8dmg. Those Warbikes at long range go from 2.2 dmg to 4.4 and at short range its 7.4 Those are respectable numbers, not what we currently have.


...I mean that's probably because GW has actually put a lot of effort into making anti-GEQ weaponry not also work super efficiently against MEQ. We have anti-MEQ weaponry - the squigbuggy gets about 50% points return by shooting at MEQ as does the Boomdakka Snazzwagon and we've got plenty of D2 melee units that can easily mop up a 100% points return against MEQ no problem. The Dakkajet is an anti-horde tool, it absolutely deletes basically any 10-man W1 infantry squad.

W2 infantry in general now gets that second wound at a lot lower cost than the first wound, in order to resolve the issue that 8th had pretty early on where the most efficient weapon to deal with elite infantry was...just bring an anti-horde gun and the numbers will average out.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 15:04:17


Post by: Galas


Yeah. I don't know why people keeps comparing how good a unit is (Not saying shoota boyz are good) agaisnt the MEQ profile when, heck, right now the top armies all have a different profile, admech, sisters, drukhari.

How much damage does the dakajedt agaisnt a raider? Or wyches? Or Skitarii (That right now until nerfed can be hard as rocks TBH but is not like they'll have all the defensive buffs in the same unit at the same time)?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 15:35:20


Post by: Blackie


 Galas wrote:
Yeah. I don't know why people keeps comparing how good a unit is (Not saying shoota boyz are good) agaisnt the MEQ profile when, heck, right now the top armies all have a different profile, admech, sisters, drukhari.


Because in real life most of the games involve MEQs. Who cares about the top armies at GTs when in your local meta there's only 1-2 out of 20 players that actually run one of those? And how many of them actually field overly competitive lists?

A random collection of SM, custodes or Deathguard is good enough to be considered a priority threat instead, so a solid codex needs tools to deal with them first.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 15:40:05


Post by: Tyel


Bikes without a Speedwaaagh are kind of lackluster. But I feel that's a build problem rather than a unit problem.

I don't think you should say "with these bonuses they only get a 50% return versus MEQ" - as if a 50% return is bad.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 15:58:54


Post by: Tamwulf


I guess all the Ork players should just throw their entire army in the trash! All their opponents have to do is remove four models and the entire army collapses...


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 16:13:07


Post by: SemperMortis


 Galas wrote:
Yeah. I don't know why people keeps comparing how good a unit is (Not saying shoota boyz are good) agaisnt the MEQ profile when, heck, right now the top armies all have a different profile, admech, sisters, drukhari.

How much damage does the dakajedt agaisnt a raider? Or wyches? Or Skitarii (That right now until nerfed can be hard as rocks TBH but is not like they'll have all the defensive buffs in the same unit at the same time)?


Why? Well, I like playing tournaments so lets look at why. At the recent Lone Star Open (165 players) 43 of them were Strictly Space Marines. That does not include Grey Knights, Custodes or Chaos Marines of any flavor (Death guard had a lot) Nor does it include SOB who are Space Marines light.

So just strictly Space Marines, in a 6 game tournament you will on average face 1 and 1/2 Marine armies. And if you include Marine Like profiles its well over 50% of the event. Hell Death Guard had like 16 players alone.

So, why compare them? because they are your most likely opponent and if you can't get by them you have no chance at the top tables.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/29 19:15:42


Post by: Daedalus81


Just because you have an anti-horde unit doesn't mean you can't beat marines. The whole army doesn't need to be focused on killing marines to get wins against them.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/30 10:32:48


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Just because you have an anti-horde unit doesn't mean you can't beat marines. The whole army doesn't need to be focused on killing marines to get wins against them.


That wasn't the question.... You have a tendency to create a lot of strawman arguments bud.

The question was why do people compare weapons performance vs Space Marines. And I gave that answer, because most opponents are Space Marines of one flavor or another. To add to that initial point, they are the yard stick GW has imposed upon us by sheer dint of popularity.

If you want to compare how good a unit is vs something else, feel free to. I use the measurement against a Tac marine because that is literally the yard stick I have personally used for over a decade, because they are without a doubt the most common defensive profile I run into in games.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/30 15:02:18


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Just because you have an anti-horde unit doesn't mean you can't beat marines. The whole army doesn't need to be focused on killing marines to get wins against them.


That wasn't the question.... You have a tendency to create a lot of strawman arguments bud.

The question was why do people compare weapons performance vs Space Marines. And I gave that answer, because most opponents are Space Marines of one flavor or another. To add to that initial point, they are the yard stick GW has imposed upon us by sheer dint of popularity.

If you want to compare how good a unit is vs something else, feel free to. I use the measurement against a Tac marine because that is literally the yard stick I have personally used for over a decade, because they are without a doubt the most common defensive profile I run into in games.


Dude. You're missing the points so often my head is spinning.

You: "This gun isn't good against marines"
Them : "Ok, but it isn't a marine killing gun"
You: "That doesn't matter, because there are lots of marine players so I need to see how it can kill marines"
Me: "You don't need it to kill marines well to win games against marines"
You: "Strawman!"



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/30 15:22:51


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:


Dude. You're missing the points so often my head is spinning.

You: "This gun isn't good against marines"
Them : "Ok, but it isn't a marine killing gun"
You: "That doesn't matter, because there are lots of marine players so I need to see how it can kill marines"
Me: "You don't need it to kill marines well to win games against marines"
You: "Strawman!"



Alright, lets break out the crayons for Daed.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah. I don't know why people keeps comparing how good a unit is (Not saying shoota boyz are good) agaisnt the MEQ profile when, heck, right now the top armies all have a different profile, admech, sisters, drukhari.

How much damage does the dakajedt agaisnt a raider? Or wyches? Or Skitarii (That right now until nerfed can be hard as rocks TBH but is not like they'll have all the defensive buffs in the same unit at the same time)?


My response was BECAUSE THAT IS THE MOST COMMON OPPONENT!!!!!!!!!!!!! lets break it down even fething further shall we? Recent LSO Major, 165 Players, 92 of which had armies wearing predominantly power armor. I broke it down earlier on how many were space marines specifically. But 92 had 3+ saves as the baseline for their army. Most of them had T4 and T5 as the baseline for their toughness profile with just SoB being T3. 92. So Why do I compare damage output vs a Space Marine defensive profile? Because its the most likely to make an appearance. And if a multi-shot gun, in this case the dakkajets Supa-Shoota's, is ok at killing Marines its going to do well against those other profiles, in fact i would do even better vs T3 SoB and basically the same vs T5 Custodes and T5 Deathguard.

As far as Anti-Horde....um, how many factions are currently running horde? Pretty sure orkz were the standalone faction running horde for most of 9th so far. I would say maybe nidz/GSC but I literally haven't seen them in so long I can't say.

And just to really drive the point home. We judge a weapons change edition to edition based on the baseline of dmg vs a Marine profile. If you want to look at how useful it is vs Scarabs or other horde units, be my guest. I like to see how useful a weapon is vs the majority of the opponents I am going to face.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/30 15:42:30


Post by: Daedalus81


Great googly moogly. It's the most common opponent and you can still win games if you have units not specifically geared to fight them. Anti-horde is synonymous with shooting GEQ when you don't care about the unit size like with Blast. Feel free to judge the weapon against marines if you think that will help you make better lists. I'm saying that your concern is overstated.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/30 16:02:37


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Great googly moogly. It's the most common opponent and you can still win games if you have units not specifically geared to fight them. Anti-horde is synonymous with shooting GEQ when you don't care about the unit size like with Blast. Feel free to judge the weapon against marines if you think that will help you make better lists. I'm saying that your concern is overstated.


And i'm saying its not over half your opponents at tournaments will be Power armored. You are correct that you can have units not specifically designed to killing Marines, but i'll be honest, I don't bring any unless I'm forced to. Because even when I play against other non-power armored factions like Tau and Kronz, its usually a better bet as an Ork to have S5+ and a lot of shots than it is to bring shoota boyz.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/30 16:16:34


Post by: Tyel


On the first turn of a Speedwaaagh a Dakkajet gets a 46% return versus Tactical Marines (really feel the Intercessor is the new bar, but go with it) - and this falls to a 40% return in the second. That's a fine return.

Not really sure the arguments about shooting other things hold water - because unfortunately things don't get much better. I mean Skitarii have I think today been nerfed so they can't benefit from a 2+ save. But shooting T3/3+ 8 point models still only gets you the same % returns as above. Shooting a raider is worse at 37% in Speedwaaagh, and the bonus AP is wasted.

That time you get to mow down a whole squad of Wyches will admittedly be worth savoring.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/07/30 18:15:14


Post by: Jidmah


Essentially, this is pretty much the same problem the dakkajet had before. It's great against weakly armored foes, but orks have never really needed much help with killing those.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/01 14:10:17


Post by: SemperMortis


Tyel wrote:
On the first turn of a Speedwaaagh a Dakkajet gets a 46% return versus Tactical Marines (really feel the Intercessor is the new bar, but go with it) - and this falls to a 40% return in the second. That's a fine return.

Not really sure the arguments about shooting other things hold water - because unfortunately things don't get much better. I mean Skitarii have I think today been nerfed so they can't benefit from a 2+ save. But shooting T3/3+ 8 point models still only gets you the same % returns as above. Shooting a raider is worse at 37% in Speedwaaagh, and the bonus AP is wasted.

That time you get to mow down a whole squad of Wyches will admittedly be worth savoring.


Basically this. But I want to emphasize that the Dakkajet HAS to be in a speedwaaagh to really have a chance of making its points back. During a Regular turn, in dakkarange you get 36 shots and 12 hits. If they could have just left the Dakkajet with BS4 I think it would have been fine, but as it stands you are going to need the Speedwaaagh and a bunch of other things to work out in order to get those points back from a unit whose entire purpose is killing infantry since it can't hold objectives.
 Jidmah wrote:
Essentially, this is pretty much the same problem the dakkajet had before. It's great against weakly armored foes, but orks have never really needed much help with killing those.


Yep.

I think the DJ will have its place in the game...but its going to be swingy as hell. If you take 3 of them, call a Speedwaaaagh and get the Freeboota trait to go off you could be looking at 21 hits with those guns which would do some serious dmg in a single turn.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/01 17:08:46


Post by: Tyel


SemperMortis wrote:
Basically this. But I want to emphasize that the Dakkajet HAS to be in a speedwaaagh to really have a chance of making its points back. During a Regular turn, in dakkarange you get 36 shots and 12 hits. If they could have just left the Dakkajet with BS4 I think it would have been fine, but as it stands you are going to need the Speedwaaagh and a bunch of other things to work out in order to get those points back from a unit whose entire purpose is killing infantry since it can't hold objectives.


I suspect that's going to be the issue with Ork lists.
I can see most infantry (bar Shootas) working (and being good) in a regular Waaagh List - and I can see most vehicles being good in a Speedwaagh list. But if you don't get the benefits you have units which are significantly worse than they could be, so an equal split of both is probably the wrong call.
I guess Ghaz lets you combine the two - but that seems to just raise more questions.

I think the real losers are things like Lootas and Flash Gitz who fail to significantly benefit from either mechanic - and are probably worse than buggies even before factoring it in.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/01 17:16:53


Post by: SemperMortis


Tyel wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Basically this. But I want to emphasize that the Dakkajet HAS to be in a speedwaaagh to really have a chance of making its points back. During a Regular turn, in dakkarange you get 36 shots and 12 hits. If they could have just left the Dakkajet with BS4 I think it would have been fine, but as it stands you are going to need the Speedwaaagh and a bunch of other things to work out in order to get those points back from a unit whose entire purpose is killing infantry since it can't hold objectives.


I suspect that's going to be the issue with Ork lists.
I can see most infantry (bar Shootas) working (and being good) in a regular Waaagh List - and I can see most vehicles being good in a Speedwaagh list. But if you don't get the benefits you have units which are significantly worse than they could be, so an equal split of both is probably the wrong call.
I guess Ghaz lets you combine the two - but that seems to just raise more questions.

I think the real losers are things like Lootas and Flash Gitz who fail to significantly benefit from either mechanic - and are probably worse than buggies even before factoring it in.


Lootas are just garbage regardless LOL. I think I found a way to make flashgitz work but as you said, they really don't get a benefit from any of the new rules.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/09 01:31:13


Post by: SemperMortis


Alright, the codex has been out for a bit of time, do you guys think its time to redo this poll or should we wait for some more results/tournaments to come in?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/09 01:35:13


Post by: Daedalus81


Well, you can do both, I suppose.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/09 07:59:19


Post by: koooaei


After some tests by me and fellow ork players we have a sad verdict. Boyz ==> Shelf.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/09 08:00:33


Post by: Jidmah


Tournament results are going to take some time, and I don't really feel like there has been much experience gathered outside of a few select groups.

Maybe wait another week or so?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/09 17:12:00


Post by: Daedalus81


 Jidmah wrote:
Tournament results are going to take some time, and I don't really feel like there has been much experience gathered outside of a few select groups.

Maybe wait another week or so?


It will take longer than that, I think. It takes a lot of time to play enough games, adjust a list, and play again.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/09 17:32:43


Post by: Karol


I hope people will get enough games in. From what it looks like we are going to have another wave soon, just in time for school start. And this means stuff will be closed soon. But at least there is the rest of the world for look at results.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/09 18:28:38


Post by: Daedalus81


Well, it looks like we actually had two Ork lists go 5-0 this past weekend.

Beat Sisters, DA, Custodes, Aeldari, Scions & Castellan

Spoiler:
Vroom vroom jank (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [114 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] +++

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Orks 2021) [48 PL, 11CP, 835pts] ++

Clan Kultur: Freebooterz

HQ [7 PL, -1CP, 135pts] +

Deffkilla Wartrike [7 PL, -1CP, 135pts]: 3. Junkboss (Speed Freeks), Da Badskull Banner, Killa Jet, Snagga Klaw, Squig-hide Tyres [1 PL, 15pts], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP], 3x Twin Boomstick, Warlord

Troops [2 PL, 50pts] +

Gretchin [2 PL, 50pts]: 'Orrible Gitz . . 10x Gretchin [50pts]: 10x Grot Blaster

Elites [8 PL, 140pts] +

Kommandos [4 PL, 55pts] . . Boss Nob [15pts]: Power Klaw [5pts], Slugga, Stikkbombs . . 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Tankbustas [4 PL, 85pts] . . Boss Nob [17pts]: Rokkit Launcha . . 4x Tankbusta [68pts]: 4x Rokkit Launcha

Fast Attack [15 PL, 270pts] +

Megatrakk Scrapjets [5 PL, 90pts] . . Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles

2 X Megatrakk Scrapjets [10 PL, 180pts]

Flyer [16 PL, 240pts] +

2x Dakkajet [8 PL, 120pts]: 2x Additional Supa Shoota [20pts], 4x Supa Shoota

++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [66 PL, -5CP, 1,165pts] ++

Clan kultur: Freebooterz

HQ [14 PL, -2CP, 240pts] +

Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -1CP, 145pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Beastchoppa, Beasthide Mantle, Slugga, Squigosaur's Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP]
Big Mek in Mega Armour [6 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: Da Ded Shiny Shoota, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP], Tellyport Blasta [10pts]

Elites [9 PL, 180pts] +

Burna Boyz [6 PL, 120pts] . . 8x Burna Boy [88pts]: 8x Burna, 8x Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs
Burna Boyz [3 PL, 60pts] . . 4x Burna Boy [44pts]: 4x Burna, 4x Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs

Fast Attack [43 PL, 745pts] +

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [7 PL, 115pts]: Nitro Squigs [2 PL, 25pts] . . Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

2 X Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
2 X Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]

Warbikers [8 PL, 110pts] . . Boss Nob [35pts]: 2x Dakkagun, Power Klaw [10pts] . . 3x Warbiker w/ Choppa [75pts]: 3x Choppa, 6x Dakkagun
Warbikers [4 PL, 80pts] . . Boss Nob [30pts]: Big Choppa [5pts], 2x Dakkagun . . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun
Warbikers [4 PL, 80pts] . . Boss Nob [30pts]: Big Choppa [5pts], 2x Dakkagun . . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun



Beat DE, SIsters, BA, Sisters, and DA


Spoiler:
++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [84 PL, 7CP, 1,390pts] ++

+ Configuration [9CP] +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]

Clan Kultur: Blood Axes

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts] +

Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Beastchoppa, Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Slugga, Squigosaur's Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]

+ Elites [10 PL, 105pts] +

Kommandos [8 PL, 80pts]
. Boss Nob [10pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 7x Kommando [70pts]: 7x Choppa, 7x Slugga, 7x Stikkbombs

Mek [2 PL, 25pts]: Choppa, I've Got A Plan, Ladz!, Kustom Mega-Slugga, Morgog's Finkin' Cap, Warlord

+ Fast Attack [48 PL, 870pts] +

Megatrakk Scrapjets [10 PL, 180pts]
. Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles
. Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [25pts]: Choppa, 2x Dakkagun
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [25pts]: Choppa, 2x Dakkagun
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

+ Heavy Support [18 PL, 270pts] +

Mek Gunz [9 PL, 135pts]
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon

Mek Gunz [9 PL, 135pts]
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon




++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [33 PL, -4CP, 610pts] ++

+ Configuration [-3CP] +

Clan Kultur: Deathskulls

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts] +

Deffkilla Wartrike [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Killa Jet, Snagga Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], 3x Twin Boomstick

+ Elites [8 PL, 100pts] +

Kommandos [4 PL, 50pts]
. Boss Nob [10pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Kommandos [4 PL, 50pts]
. Boss Nob [10pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

+ Fast Attack [19 PL, 390pts] +

DeffKoptas [6 PL, 150pts]: Boom Boyz
. DeffKopta [50pts]: Kopta Rokkits, Slugga, Spinnin' Blades, Stikkbombs
. DeffKopta [50pts]: Kopta Rokkits, Slugga, Spinnin' Blades, Stikkbombs
. DeffKopta [50pts]: Kopta Rokkits, Slugga, Spinnin' Blades, Stikkbombs

Stormboyz [3 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob [11pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Stormboy [44pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Stormboyz [3 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob [11pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Stormboy [44pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Stormboyz [3 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob [11pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Stormboy [44pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [25pts]: Choppa, 2x Dakkagun
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

++ Total: [117 PL, 3CP, 2,000pts] ++



Automatically Appended Next Post:
( There was also an IH list that went 6-0 beating DE twice, Admech, and DG. )



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/10 06:56:13


Post by: Blackie


Yeah, and not a single ork boyz in those lists. Not surprising at all.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/10 10:05:05


Post by: Jidmah


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Well, it looks like we actually had two Ork lists go 5-0 this past weekend.

Beat Sisters, DA, Custodes, Aeldari, Scions & Castellan

Spoiler:
Vroom vroom jank (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [114 PL, 6CP, 2,000pts] +++

++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Orks 2021) [48 PL, 11CP, 835pts] ++

Clan Kultur: Freebooterz

HQ [7 PL, -1CP, 135pts] +

Deffkilla Wartrike [7 PL, -1CP, 135pts]: 3. Junkboss (Speed Freeks), Da Badskull Banner, Killa Jet, Snagga Klaw, Squig-hide Tyres [1 PL, 15pts], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP], 3x Twin Boomstick, Warlord

Troops [2 PL, 50pts] +

Gretchin [2 PL, 50pts]: 'Orrible Gitz . . 10x Gretchin [50pts]: 10x Grot Blaster

Elites [8 PL, 140pts] +

Kommandos [4 PL, 55pts] . . Boss Nob [15pts]: Power Klaw [5pts], Slugga, Stikkbombs . . 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Tankbustas [4 PL, 85pts] . . Boss Nob [17pts]: Rokkit Launcha . . 4x Tankbusta [68pts]: 4x Rokkit Launcha

Fast Attack [15 PL, 270pts] +

Megatrakk Scrapjets [5 PL, 90pts] . . Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles

2 X Megatrakk Scrapjets [10 PL, 180pts]

Flyer [16 PL, 240pts] +

2x Dakkajet [8 PL, 120pts]: 2x Additional Supa Shoota [20pts], 4x Supa Shoota

++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [66 PL, -5CP, 1,165pts] ++

Clan kultur: Freebooterz

HQ [14 PL, -2CP, 240pts] +

Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -1CP, 145pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Beastchoppa, Beasthide Mantle, Slugga, Squigosaur's Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP]
Big Mek in Mega Armour [6 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: Da Ded Shiny Shoota, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP], Tellyport Blasta [10pts]

Elites [9 PL, 180pts] +

Burna Boyz [6 PL, 120pts] . . 8x Burna Boy [88pts]: 8x Burna, 8x Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs
Burna Boyz [3 PL, 60pts] . . 4x Burna Boy [44pts]: 4x Burna, 4x Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs

Fast Attack [43 PL, 745pts] +

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [7 PL, 115pts]: Nitro Squigs [2 PL, 25pts] . . Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

2 X Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
2 X Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]

Warbikers [8 PL, 110pts] . . Boss Nob [35pts]: 2x Dakkagun, Power Klaw [10pts] . . 3x Warbiker w/ Choppa [75pts]: 3x Choppa, 6x Dakkagun
Warbikers [4 PL, 80pts] . . Boss Nob [30pts]: Big Choppa [5pts], 2x Dakkagun . . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun
Warbikers [4 PL, 80pts] . . Boss Nob [30pts]: Big Choppa [5pts], 2x Dakkagun . . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun



Beat DE, SIsters, BA, Sisters, and DA


Spoiler:
++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [84 PL, 7CP, 1,390pts] ++

+ Configuration [9CP] +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]

Clan Kultur: Blood Axes

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts] +

Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Beastchoppa, Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Slugga, Squigosaur's Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]

+ Elites [10 PL, 105pts] +

Kommandos [8 PL, 80pts]
. Boss Nob [10pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 7x Kommando [70pts]: 7x Choppa, 7x Slugga, 7x Stikkbombs

Mek [2 PL, 25pts]: Choppa, I've Got A Plan, Ladz!, Kustom Mega-Slugga, Morgog's Finkin' Cap, Warlord

+ Fast Attack [48 PL, 870pts] +

Megatrakk Scrapjets [10 PL, 180pts]
. Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles
. Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [25pts]: Choppa, 2x Dakkagun
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [25pts]: Choppa, 2x Dakkagun
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

+ Heavy Support [18 PL, 270pts] +

Mek Gunz [9 PL, 135pts]
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon

Mek Gunz [9 PL, 135pts]
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun [3 PL, 45pts]: Kustom Mega Kannon




++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [33 PL, -4CP, 610pts] ++

+ Configuration [-3CP] +

Clan Kultur: Deathskulls

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ HQ [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts] +

Deffkilla Wartrike [6 PL, -1CP, 120pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Killa Jet, Snagga Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], 3x Twin Boomstick

+ Elites [8 PL, 100pts] +

Kommandos [4 PL, 50pts]
. Boss Nob [10pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Kommandos [4 PL, 50pts]
. Boss Nob [10pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

+ Fast Attack [19 PL, 390pts] +

DeffKoptas [6 PL, 150pts]: Boom Boyz
. DeffKopta [50pts]: Kopta Rokkits, Slugga, Spinnin' Blades, Stikkbombs
. DeffKopta [50pts]: Kopta Rokkits, Slugga, Spinnin' Blades, Stikkbombs
. DeffKopta [50pts]: Kopta Rokkits, Slugga, Spinnin' Blades, Stikkbombs

Stormboyz [3 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob [11pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Stormboy [44pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Stormboyz [3 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob [11pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Stormboy [44pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Stormboyz [3 PL, 55pts]
. Boss Nob [11pts]: Choppa, Slugga, Stikkbombs
. 4x Stormboy [44pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Warbikers [4 PL, 75pts]
. Boss Nob [25pts]: Choppa, 2x Dakkagun
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

++ Total: [117 PL, 3CP, 2,000pts] ++



Automatically Appended Next Post:
( There was also an IH list that went 6-0 beating DE twice, Admech, and DG. )



Nice
Where did you get the second list, I couldn't find it anywhere?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/10 10:08:57


Post by: the_scotsman


Damn that second list makes some...bizarre choices that I'd really love to know the rationale behind.

the triple units of mek gunz, the choice of blood axes for the first detachment...other than that its just spamming buggies which, yeah, we know theyre good, but I'm just kind of baffled by some of the otehr stuff.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/10 12:59:53


Post by: SemperMortis


 the_scotsman wrote:
Damn that second list makes some...bizarre choices that I'd really love to know the rationale behind.

the triple units of mek gunz, the choice of blood axes for the first detachment...other than that its just spamming buggies which, yeah, we know theyre good, but I'm just kind of baffled by some of the otehr stuff.


Have to remember, nobody has had a chance yet to adjust to the new Ork codex. Most of his opponents probably didn't realize that by killing 1 model you have a 50% chance to kill another from morale and then a 33% chance to kill the last from attrition.

Failing that it might have just been target saturation. So much T5 and T6 with similar threat ratio's that its really just a matter of selecting whichever model you really need to kill first, and those KMKs arent game breaking hanging out in the back.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/10 13:06:33


Post by: the_scotsman


True. I guess for me it just doesnt seem like the second list has a TON of pressure pieces that as an opponent I have to kill before I do anything else and that I have access to kill. Squigboss I can't really do antyhing about since he's a character.. I guess maybe the stormboyz and kommandos but those I'd rate more as scorers, everything else is just going to continue to apply its firepower indefinitely and you can't tie up the buggies due to Blood Axes so its not like you have to prioritize those.

Facing that list, if I had any appreciable armor I'd be aiming to take 2 models off each KMK unit turn 1 and get a third one almost guaranteed. I wouldn't be taking the '50% chance for 2, 17% chance for 3' morale approach, I'd be dropping 2 from each unit and hoping my opponent is tempted to waste 2cp on an autopass so I can safely leave a lone model from any given infantry unit and my opponent can't autopass them to secure an objective.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/10 13:48:06


Post by: Jidmah


SemperMortis wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Damn that second list makes some...bizarre choices that I'd really love to know the rationale behind.

the triple units of mek gunz, the choice of blood axes for the first detachment...other than that its just spamming buggies which, yeah, we know theyre good, but I'm just kind of baffled by some of the otehr stuff.


Have to remember, nobody has had a chance yet to adjust to the new Ork codex. Most of his opponents probably didn't realize that by killing 1 model you have a 50% chance to kill another from morale and then a 33% chance to kill the last from attrition.

Failing that it might have just been target saturation. So much T5 and T6 with similar threat ratio's that its really just a matter of selecting whichever model you really need to kill first, and those KMKs arent game breaking hanging out in the back.


Yeah, this. Orks always tend to perform vastly better when their books are new, both because they are usually operated by fairly experienced ork players (orks are not an army that you easily switch to) and most of the midfield tournament players usually train fixed play patterns over and over that are very inflexible to adapting to unexpected game situations.

At the same time, both lists seem very unrefined - there very likely is potential for them to improve as well.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/10 13:58:37


Post by: Karol


Plus a swarm of vehicles coupled with cheap t5 fast moving bikers and jump infantry generate a situation where there is too many targets for some armies. killing 3-5 bikers wastes a lot of points for some armies. While at the same time objective wise, it is hard to kill enough of orks units to stop them from scoring quarters.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/10 14:08:42


Post by: SemperMortis


Karol wrote:
Plus a swarm of vehicles coupled with cheap t5 fast moving bikers and jump infantry generate a situation where there is too many targets for some armies. killing 3-5 bikers wastes a lot of points for some armies. While at the same time objective wise, it is hard to kill enough of orks units to stop them from scoring quarters.


And that is the thing, there wasn't that much bikers or infantry in general. The heavy lifting of both lists was done by the buggies while the infantry ran around scoring objectives, safely ignored by his opponent because of those scary buggies. I'll be honest, neither list looks that intimidating, but I also have the clear advantage of understanding orkz a hell of a lot better than Joe shmoe tournament player who plays against orkz maybe twice a year.

Its a hard mindset to get yourself out of i'll readily admit, but ignoring the "scary" buggies and killing off those infantry would have basically ended the ork players hopes turn 2 or 3.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/10 14:22:52


Post by: Daedalus81


 Jidmah wrote:

Nice
Where did you get the second list, I couldn't find it anywhere?


My trust old BCP login.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/12 12:14:39


Post by: G00fySmiley


Karol wrote:
Plus a swarm of vehicles coupled with cheap t5 fast moving bikers and jump infantry generate a situation where there is too many targets for some armies. killing 3-5 bikers wastes a lot of points for some armies. While at the same time objective wise, it is hard to kill enough of orks units to stop them from scoring quarters.


bikes are ok but compared to squig riders i don't think they will be using a lot of use once people can get the squig kits (unrelesed ourtside of the limited box set where you get 3)


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/12 12:41:05


Post by: koooaei


Bikers are at least on par or even better cause they can shoot quite well and get the -1 to They can make an impact turn 1. They add up well to the freebootas while the squigosaurs...not so much.
However, squigosaurs are decently choppy for the price. But will you need it?..


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/13 01:19:42


Post by: SemperMortis


 koooaei wrote:
Bikers are at least on par or even better cause they can shoot quite well and get the -1 to They can make an impact turn 1. They add up well to the freebootas while the squigosaurs...not so much.
However, squigosaurs are decently choppy for the price. But will you need it?..


I think they compliment one another really well, but the edge in my opinion goes to the Squiggies.

Both are 25pts, both have 3 wounds, both have 4+ saves.

Ranged combat the Warbikers win hands down, the only thing Squighog boyz have is the bomb squig. A warike is M14 which means if its not Evil sunz or Bad Moonz its not in Dakkarange turn 1 (Barring the strat) So it gets 6 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 0.44 wounds against Marines. If you call the speedWaaagh its 8 shots, 2.6 hits, 1.77 wounds and 0.88dmg If you wait until turn 2 its 10 shots and 12 shots for 3.3 and 4 hits each which works out to 0.73 and 1.33. If you can get into CC its 3 attacks for 2 hits, 1 wound and 0.5dmg.

The Squiggy on the other hand is 1 shot each with git and spear. Each ends with 0.33 hits, the gits is 0.166wounds the spear is 0.22 git weapon ends with 0.07dmg and the spear is 0.28, of note, both are at shorter range. In CC without the waaagh its 3 attacks at S6 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.77dmg The Git gets 1 attack 0.66 hits, 0.22 wounds and 0.11dmg AND the Squiggy gets 2 attacks 1.33 hits 0.88 wounds and 0.88dmg. Works out to a total of 0.35dmg in the shooting phase and 2.76dmg in the CC phase. During a WAAAAGH the Rider gets +1 attack so 4 attacks and 2.37dmg instead of 1.77

The only time I see the Warbiker being better is if you Take Ghaz, but thats a 300pt model just to get both benefits for your Warbikers.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/13 02:03:57


Post by: cody.d.


Though sadly you won't be able to get both sides of the waagh to work optimally due to the clunky Dakka rules. Unless you pop it second turn I guess.

On the other hand, it does give you a spread of options. Each unit can either advance and charge with exceptionally good odds. Or move full speed and try to get into full dakka range. Though normally I'll do a combo of both, possibly even using more dakka on a biker unit that really needs to kill something vulnerable.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/13 05:18:26


Post by: koooaei


SemperMortis wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Bikers are at least on par or even better cause they can shoot quite well and get the -1 to They can make an impact turn 1. They add up well to the freebootas while the squigosaurs...not so much.
However, squigosaurs are decently choppy for the price. But will you need it?..


I think they compliment one another really well, but the edge in my opinion goes to the Squiggies.

Both are 25pts, both have 3 wounds, both have 4+ saves.

Ranged combat the Warbikers win hands down, the only thing Squighog boyz have is the bomb squig. A warike is M14 which means if its not Evil sunz or Bad Moonz its not in Dakkarange turn 1 (Barring the strat) So it gets 6 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 0.44 wounds against Marines. If you call the speedWaaagh its 8 shots, 2.6 hits, 1.77 wounds and 0.88dmg If you wait until turn 2 its 10 shots and 12 shots for 3.3 and 4 hits each which works out to 0.73 and 1.33. If you can get into CC its 3 attacks for 2 hits, 1 wound and 0.5dmg.

The Squiggy on the other hand is 1 shot each with git and spear. Each ends with 0.33 hits, the gits is 0.166wounds the spear is 0.22 git weapon ends with 0.07dmg and the spear is 0.28, of note, both are at shorter range. In CC without the waaagh its 3 attacks at S6 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.77dmg The Git gets 1 attack 0.66 hits, 0.22 wounds and 0.11dmg AND the Squiggy gets 2 attacks 1.33 hits 0.88 wounds and 0.88dmg. Works out to a total of 0.35dmg in the shooting phase and 2.76dmg in the CC phase. During a WAAAAGH the Rider gets +1 attack so 4 attacks and 2.37dmg instead of 1.77

The only time I see the Warbiker being better is if you Take Ghaz, but thats a 300pt model just to get both benefits for your Warbikers.


There are ways to get into dakka range for bikes - especially if you go 2d or if the mission starts with a 18" Deployment. Also, if you're running freebootas, which seems to be what many tourney lists will, taking into consideration how good buggies are and how underwhelming the regular waaagh builds seem to be right now, you want to max out your shooting. With bike's speed they can move behind blos turn 2 to trigger the hit bonus off the trash that your squigbuggiea couldn't finish off cause the opponent focuse fire them or something. Or you could simply enjoy the benefits of speedwaagh bikers with +1 to hit bonus allready. If you like counting vs marines, speedwaagh bikers in dakka range with +1 to hit will deal 12 s5 ap2 shots each hitting on 4s. Which is exactly 2 wounds. That is quite impressive. Sure, you might not get into dakka range but that is possible.

Squighigs do chop quite well and have some shooting spears and are a nice unit stat-wise but ATM, I think bikers have an edge simply because of the rest of the list building around buggies and speedwaagh to support them. Whereas running old waaagh is only an option with ghaz. I'm not sure it's the best option cause he's too pricey. And withour move + charge and extra attack from regular waaagh, squighigs will more often do less than bikers that will, at very least, still put up 8 shots each.

Oh, also, bikers can also upgrade a nob, which some people want to do - for that d2 to get an edge vs scoring d2 units or to finish off something with multi-wounds.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/13 14:51:27


Post by: SemperMortis


I think it boils down to playstyle. If you want to be shooty you can go with the warbikers, if you want to be choppy you go for the Squighog riders. I didn't want to include kulture buffs because that is just so swingy, but with +1 to hit those squighog boyz become even deadlier as well The biggest thing is that the codex is littered with +1 to hit in Melee where as the only way to get +1 to hit in ranged is with the freeboota kulture.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/13 15:46:54


Post by: Jidmah


Beast snaggas (including hogs) get +1 to hit when shooting vehicles or monsters and there is a bunch of wargear and bespoke rules giving +1 to hit when shooting.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/13 15:57:28


Post by: SemperMortis


 Jidmah wrote:
Beast snaggas (including hogs) get +1 to hit when shooting vehicles or monsters and there is a bunch of wargear and bespoke rules giving +1 to hit when shooting.


True, but honestly how much is that actually worth? Snaggas have S4 pistols at best they can take a single assault D3 S6 18' thump gun per 10 boyz, the Squighog boyz have a S4 8' pistol with no AP, and their spear which is S5 -2 2dmg, the Nob on Smasha squig has a S4 pistol. The only real unit that benefits are the Kill Rig and Hunta rig and of the two the Killrig is the more competitive and its main weapon is Auto-hit But your point is taken, there are niche cases.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/13 19:04:10


Post by: Jidmah


The squig riders can throw their spears, those hitting on 4+ makes quite a difference.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/13 19:12:03


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


So much discussion for such an obvious yes.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/14 00:07:14


Post by: SemperMortis


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
So much discussion for such an obvious yes.
LOL, go take a look at the ork tactics thread, the mood there has shifted somewhat heavily and now MSU boyz or none at all because they are so terrible with morale The recent Tournament had 2 ork players finishing 1st and 2nd, neither had any boyz


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/14 03:44:22


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
So much discussion for such an obvious yes.
LOL, go take a look at the ork tactics thread, the mood there has shifted somewhat heavily and now MSU boyz or none at all because they are so terrible with morale The recent Tournament had 2 ork players finishing 1st and 2nd, neither had any boyz


People should not base their entire view upon the lists a couple of people did well with. At some point we may see boyz. Death Guard weren't doing well until they were. Immortals were bad until they weren't.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/14 06:33:01


Post by: koooaei


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
So much discussion for such an obvious yes.
LOL, go take a look at the ork tactics thread, the mood there has shifted somewhat heavily and now MSU boyz or none at all because they are so terrible with morale The recent Tournament had 2 ork players finishing 1st and 2nd, neither had any boyz


People should not base their entire view upon the lists a couple of people did well with. At some point we may see boyz. Death Guard weren't doing well until they were. Immortals were bad until they weren't.


Sure they shouldn't. But most people who've tried running boyz end up with the same conclusion. The fewer - the better. It's pretty much like tactical Marines. They're a nice unit on paper - relatively durable, can make pod shots with bolters and a heavy bolter across the board or maybe with a melta if you get closer. They can hold their own vs most infantry from other cosexes - especially if you combine bolter shooting and mellee with a sword sarge. They fill your troop slots, can be put in a rhino for more versatility - there are arguements for running tac Marines. But by the time you kit them out to be ok-ish at their job, you're generally better off running barebones intercessors and just spend extra points from all the tac gear and rhinos elsewhere.

10 boyz in a trukk cost 160. That's the cost of 2 bosstablastas or, if you add 20 pts, even 2 skrapjets that will do MUCH more. Probably, even in mellee with their d3 mortal wounds and bigshootas.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/14 08:59:47


Post by: Jidmah


This.

Your choices for troops are essentially
1) bring a unit of boyz that is not particularly good at anything
2) bring boyz in a trukk which are fast, but lack the punch to down anything of value
3) bring a buggy and 'orrible gits
4) pay 1 additional CP for your detachment and just bring two buggies instead of boyz, no troops and have your specalist mob free for something else

There really is no competitive reason to do 1) or 2).

The only way I see someone running boyz is double down on the goff trait and just flood the board with a dozen of 10 boyz units. But then again, for the first time since ever storm boyz, kommandoz, warbikers and burnas are actually better than boyz, so there really isn't a huge incentive to take any boyz before maxing out all the specialists. Mind you, that's not a bad thing.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/14 11:24:52


Post by: Tyel


Yeah I think Ork's and Boyz have got two problems.

1. As said Boyz are worse than Boy-like specialists. Which is reasonable, its true for most factions in 40k these days - but does mean "Greentide" should probably be 3*Kommandos, 3*Storm Boyz, 3*Burna Boyz rather than "here's 3/4/5*30 Boyz, deal with it." I don't think this list would do too badly at a FLGS but....

2. This regular Waaagh turn 1/2 all in charge list seems like a one-dimensional Timmy build. In certain missions, with certain terrain, against certain factions played by people who know what they are doing, it seems like its going to underperform.

But its hard to see what you can throw in to add dimensionality, because doing so inevitably makes that turn 1-2 punch weaker. Ditching say 40 infantry for 5 buggies really changes the feel of the list. It feels like you very quickly end up evolving into those tournament lists we've seen - i.e. shooty speedwaaagh buffed units doing the heavy lifting, while min-sized Kommandos/Storm Boyz units serve as objective scorers rather than hammers. And then there's no place for Boyz at all.

This is partly I think because Tankbustas/Lootaz/Flash Gitz are "okay" in terms of 40k balancing as a whole, but their Buggy equivalents are clearly just better.
And that's before factoring in Speedwaaagh.

Regular Waaagh should have probably given Speedwaaagh like bonuses to the above "shooty infantry" units.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/14 11:39:30


Post by: koooaei


Having played with regular waagh, I can say that the one-turn bonus to charge after advance is extremely problematic. If you pop it t1, only a small portion of your army gets to fight and than the rest might not even get to charge t2 if they got bad advance moves t1. If you pop it t2, it's too late and you have half of your striking force dead as you still got to spend points on scoring andsupport characters, so, a t2 charge with your mellee with below average durability is gona underperform. And if you go 2d, it's even worse if the opponent ain't rushing mid board with all of his forces t1. And if it does, probably means he's not afraid of your mellee anyways.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/14 16:31:43


Post by: Karol


Tyel wrote:
Yeah I think Ork's and Boyz have got two problems.

1. As said Boyz are worse than Boy-like specialists. Which is reasonable, its true for most factions in 40k these days - but does mean "Greentide" should probably be 3*Kommandos, 3*Storm Boyz, 3*Burna Boyz rather than "here's 3/4/5*30 Boyz, deal with it." I don't think this list would do too badly at a FLGS but....

.


Marines are the same. minimal troops, often take for utility of up board deployment or deep strike preventsion, and the regular troops that make the army work are multiple units of blade guard, units of attack bikes etc. Not all armies are like that. DE for example run a ton of their own troops, same with GK or Ad mecha. But DG runs minimal cost efficient pox walkers as obligatory troops, and then a lot of termintors LoS shoting tanks etc.
This seems to be the two way GW designed army in 9th ed.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/14 17:22:04


Post by: SemperMortis


The issue I have with boyz right now is that they are incredibly easy to fix, but GW doesn't want to.

The biggest negative impact for Boyz over 10 models is Morale. As soon as you breach that magic number you open yourself up to max shots from blast weapons and, when those shots do connect, if you lose 4 models you have a 50% chance to fail morale and then lose another 1/6th +1 to morale and attrition.

Giving Orkz back their old Morale rules, or a modifier that allows you to only lose 1 model to morale or 1 from morale and 1 from attrition would fix most of the issues with boyz over night. I'm fine with occasionally losing a model or two to Morale, but at the moment its just catastrophic, especially if you go second and your opponent gets to whittle down several mobz at the same time.

The other issue is that boyz are now 50% more expensive than they were a few short years ago. 50%! I can only think of 1 other type of troops choice that has gone up a similar or higher amount, and that's Grots and other ridiculously cheap troops who went from 2-3ppm to 5 because of GW inane rule about 5pts being the minimum per model.

I constantly bring this up, but it constantly bears repeating. Marines in 4th were 15pts, Orkz were 6. Marines are now 18 (20% increase) and orkz are now 9 (50% increase). did boyz become 30% better compared to Tac Marines in that same time period? No, and i've shown the math many times over. So Ork boyz are competitively over priced right now, not saying Tac Marines are great either mind you, just pointing out that pt for pt, Orkz are now less durable and less dmging than they were in 4th vs those Same Marines.

I believe we all know the reason why, that being that GW wants to crush hordes so that they don't skew games anymore, but you could have done this by at least justifying 9ppm, or conversely, make them 10ppm but give them a save worth mentioning.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/14 17:38:26


Post by: koooaei


Karol wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Yeah I think Ork's and Boyz have got two problems.

1. As said Boyz are worse than Boy-like specialists. Which is reasonable, its true for most factions in 40k these days - but does mean "Greentide" should probably be 3*Kommandos, 3*Storm Boyz, 3*Burna Boyz rather than "here's 3/4/5*30 Boyz, deal with it." I don't think this list would do too badly at a FLGS but....

.


Marines are the same. minimal troops, often take for utility of up board deployment or deep strike preventsion, and the regular troops that make the army work are multiple units of blade guard, units of attack bikes etc. Not all armies are like that. DE for example run a ton of their own troops, same with GK or Ad mecha. But DG runs minimal cost efficient pox walkers as obligatory troops, and then a lot of termintors LoS shoting tanks etc.
This seems to be the two way GW designed army in 9th ed.


To be honest I don't think it's an intentional design. They generally try to make different archetypes viable - at least for armies with wide model ranges. One of the primary ork archetypes is greentide. With LOTS of boyz. But as greentide has allready been pretty potent and boyz received t5 and ap1 choppa buffs, alongside clan traits that make them more durable (overhyped snakebites - I literally saw people in the 40k chats loosing their gak on how overpowered t5 transhuman boyz are and that they should cost 12 pt at very least) or deadlier in mellee (goffs), so they had to balance it out not to make hordes of boyz too good compared to other stuff in the book and vs other armies that don't gear with killing hordes in mind (admech hordes are an exception cause they accidentally got 2+ armored unkillable troops with tons of shooting), so, they made boyz 1 pt more expensive (which is minor, right...), took away greentide and fearless. But in the end, they just overvalued the buffs and undervalued the nerfs.

An argument in favor of the theory of gw honestly thinking hordes of 3*30 t5 boyz backed by 3*20 snaggas on a flank are gona rock the scene, is that 3 out of 4 of our special missions favor mellee hordes. The 4-th favors a mellee-oriented warlord rolling along the tide and killing big stuff or lots of stuff that's smaller.
Also, right after orks we see 1k son previews that feature a strategem specifically aimed at helping out with hordes - 1 cp to make your soulreaper cannon double it's hits vs squads with 11+ models.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/14 18:50:42


Post by: xttz


 koooaei wrote:


To be honest I don't think it's an intentional design.


I genuinely think there's an oversight with the core rules that GW didn't consider while writing 9E or any codexes. The new morale rules fundamentally favour MSU in a way they probably didn't intend.

For example; if a 30-strong unit loses 5 models and fails morale it can expect at least 4 more to combat attrition.

If a 30-strong unit loses 14 models in a turn it's almost certainly going to fail the check, but can expect to take fewer attrition losses than the unit who took more casualties.

If two 11-strong units lose 5 models each, they'll probably lose a total of 2 models despite both starting and finishing in a considerably weaker position.

When you apply 9E morale rules to units of 5-10 with good leadership values it works as it's probably intended. If you try to apply it to larger units with poorer leadership, it can often result in a weird unintuitive outcome where those who take light casualties lose more to morale than when taking higher losses.

This is the core issue and I think GW have missed it completely. It's something far more obvious with Orks than any other codex so far.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/14 20:13:15


Post by: koooaei


There is still a number of ways to mitigate morale - mob rule, ghaz, runtherd, zag, stompa, freeboota warlord trait. But most of them are nerfed versions of fearless-like abilities they used to be. Now I think this is actually intentional. We've had plenty of editions where, on one hand, morale had a serious impact rule wise, but on the other hand, there were more fearless or very close to fearless units than units that can actually fail ld. But loosing 1+ every 6th ork is still waaay too much for large squads. Your 30-man squad of boyz is around 20-30% LESS durable than it was pre-"buff" if it looses 5-10 modeIs. Things start to go in the t5 boy'z favor a bit if the enemy intends to wipe your 30-man squad in one go but now there is ngenerally no need cause there's no green tide strat. I don't mind orks being non-fearless, just have some reasonable mitigation mechanics that justify their 9 pt cost and give a reason to run squads of 30. Why not make mob rule to be a scaleable version of grim resolve. Something like:

If there are 11+ models in a squad, or in a friendly squad with mob rule that is within 6", the squad can not loose more than 2 models to morale, if there are 21+ models, the squad can not loose more than 1 model to morale.

Snagas and nobz could have an innate rule to loose 1 model less to a minimum of 1 representing their orky confidence in such a brutal war-like society and dealing with the problem of their squads being smaller.

Now there are actually reasons to run 30-man squads that will not suffer 5 casualties from morale after suffering 5 casualties from shooting.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/16 17:21:46


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
So much discussion for such an obvious yes.
LOL, go take a look at the ork tactics thread, the mood there has shifted somewhat heavily and now MSU boyz or none at all because they are so terrible with morale The recent Tournament had 2 ork players finishing 1st and 2nd, neither had any boyz


People should not base their entire view upon the lists a couple of people did well with. At some point we may see boyz. Death Guard weren't doing well until they were. Immortals were bad until they weren't.
Yeah I think you are right. The fact is though - Immortals were always good and it was a simple calculation. For 4 more points you get a gun with 2.5 the range and a +1 T +1A and +1 save bonus and all you give up is max squad size and reroll 1's for reanimate. That is a lot for +4 points. I have always included them in my Necron lists.

Boys are actually quite good - whether the "best" players are including them in their list. They might be better as10 mans in trucks and maybe one 30 man that you can cover with some form of morale mitigation. They are still a bargain though. Taking them nets your army more CP - they are better than Gretchen.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/16 17:58:31


Post by: SemperMortis


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

Yeah I think you are right. The fact is though - Immortals were always good and it was a simple calculation. For 4 more points you get a gun with 2.5 the range and a +1 T +1A and +1 save bonus and all you give up is max squad size and reroll 1's for reanimate. That is a lot for +4 points. I have always included them in my Necron lists.

Boys are actually quite good - whether the "best" players are including them in their list. They might be better as10 mans in trucks and maybe one 30 man that you can cover with some form of morale mitigation. They are still a bargain though. Taking them nets your army more CP - they are better than Gretchen.


Boyz are quite good...on paper. On the table? Not so much. The morale issue means you will never take 30 boyz because you are ceding your opponent free points from morale. And yeah, you can use the 2CP once a game strat to save those 4-5 boyz but 1: its not worth it and 2: its once a game. And the next argument is that you can just use the Ork specific 2CP strat which lets you pass morale...except that its terrible. 2CP to kill D3+1 boyz (or just D3..still not sure on the exact Order of Operations) as opposed to not using 2 CP and just losing 1+ 1/6th of your boyz.

And as far as taking them in trukkz, sadly we are not Drukhari..specifically, trukkz are nowhere near as good/useful as Dark Eldar transports. Ours don't get a D3+3 Melta gun, nor do they have a stock 5++ invuln save nor do they have the same movement/fly. And the next argument is "What about the trukk boyz specialist mob!" to which I point out that anything those "boys" can do, would be done significantly better by Meganobz/Nobz in that trukk using that detachment.

Nope, as of right now, unless GW lowers Boyz costs or gives us a morale mitigation method that isn't Fething useless, boyz are effectively relegated to Friendly games or at best, MSU tax troops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It is still very early mind you, but as of right now Orkz have placed in 3 tournaments since their new codex got released. Flying Monkey Con, Wargames for Warriors and the Alberta Classic. In the Alberta they placed 1st and 2nd, and the Wargames for Warriors they placed 1st and 3rd.

I believe out of all 5 lists that placed there was a total of 30 boyz and 20 beast snaggas all in 10 man units. So 5 Boyz/Snagga troops choices out of 5 lists and at least 8+ detachments. Compare that to just 1 Month ago when the average comp list was taking upwards of 120 boyz.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/16 18:25:21


Post by: koooaei


I'm surprised there's still so many. How did they use them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess they were min scoring squads. Which I can see. 10 t5 bodies can be a bit difficult to remove in one go if you have the rest of the army up front. But is it more difficult than 20 t3 bodies...

Maybe they were used out of Los turn 1-2 for octarius and than ran on home and mid board objectives. Could be ok turn 3 as the enemy is supposed to be left without excessive amount of ways to deal with something like that. Anyways, some info could be helpful as I still don't see them more preferable than, say, kommandoes or an extra buggy.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/16 18:40:36


Post by: epronovost


 koooaei wrote:
I'm surprised there's still so many. How did they use them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess they were min scoring squads. Which I can see. 10 t5 bodies can be a bit difficult to remove in one go if you have the rest of the army up front. But is it more difficult than 20 t3 bodies...

Maybe they were used out of Los turn 1-2 for octarius and than ran on home and mid board objectives. Could be ok turn 3 as the enemy is supposed to be left without excessive amount of ways to deal with something like that. Anyways, some info could be helpful as I still don't see them more preferable than, say, kommandoes or an extra buggy.


I would say that a twice lighter footprint does help for cover and obscured line of sight making 10 T5 bodies slightly harder to remove than 20 T3 on the tabletop even though on paper it would be basically the same.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/16 20:16:10


Post by: Daedalus81


 koooaei wrote:
I'm surprised there's still so many. How did they use them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess they were min scoring squads. Which I can see. 10 t5 bodies can be a bit difficult to remove in one go if you have the rest of the army up front. But is it more difficult than 20 t3 bodies...

Maybe they were used out of Los turn 1-2 for octarius and than ran on home and mid board objectives. Could be ok turn 3 as the enemy is supposed to be left without excessive amount of ways to deal with something like that. Anyways, some info could be helpful as I still don't see them more preferable than, say, kommandoes or an extra buggy.


You're not fitting all those boyz behind cover and you need them up front to cover for the squigosaurs anyway. It's an army that played heavy into objectives rather than killing.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/16 23:44:44


Post by: Tyel


 koooaei wrote:
I'm surprised there's still so many. How did they use them?


Can see the two Ork wargamesforwarriors lists here: https://www.40kstats.com/wargamesforwarriors.

Rich Kilton is obviously very good - but yeah, I'm a bit at a loss what happens if you go second as to my mind on *reasonable* dice, you should just get smoked by a well put together shooty list (i.e. the 3rd place Ork list). But maybe that just didn't happen, or it was possible to hide sufficient stuff behind cover.

Someone from the event suggested the issue is you get this pile of obsec bodies (between troops+Deathskulls) that just tie everything up and so really screws over your own primary game even if you should eventually clear them.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/17 05:09:08


Post by: koooaei


Tyel wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
I'm surprised there's still so many. How did they use them?


Can see the two Ork wargamesforwarriors lists here: https://www.40kstats.com/wargamesforwarriors.

Rich Kilton is obviously very good - but yeah, I'm a bit at a loss what happens if you go second as to my mind on *reasonable* dice, you should just get smoked by a well put together shooty list (i.e. the 3rd place Ork list). But maybe that just didn't happen, or it was possible to hide sufficient stuff behind cover.

Someone from the event suggested the issue is you get this pile of obsec bodies (between troops+Deathskulls) that just tie everything up and so really screws over your own primary game even if you should eventually clear them.



The link is broken


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/17 09:18:09


Post by: Tyel


 koooaei wrote:

The link is broken


https://www.40kstats.com/wargamesforwarriors

That's due to me adding a full stop


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/17 10:01:12


Post by: koooaei


Tyel wrote:
 koooaei wrote:

The link is broken


https://www.40kstats.com/wargamesforwarriors

That's due to me adding a full stop


The first list is illegal - you can't give redder armor to a squigosaur - he's not a vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other than that, it's a list that kills nothing and just scores a lot... I don't know, have to watch it play on those tourney tables with 8-10 large los-blocking terrain features but I'm afraid it's not gona work on regular tables with 3-4 at best, and mostly just 1 large in the middle and a couple small ones on each side that are so common in gaming stores.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, the rest of the lists are pretty layed back either. However, the ork that took 3d clearly has a more coherent list. It's hard to tell what was going on there unless we see some batreps. Anyhow, thanks for info!


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/17 11:34:01


Post by: Tyel


I'd agree with you - although to be fair its a common issue with tournaments, you only have to (and only can) beat what's in front of you. You don't always get multiple games against whatever are currently seen to be the most competitive list in the game.

I don't think for example there were any point and click Ad Mech lists at the tournament - which might have shot all those Boyz to bits.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/17 21:51:16


Post by: Void__Dragon


 koooaei wrote:

The first list is illegal - you can't give redder armor to a squigosaur - he's not a vehicle.


No, it can be taken on a vehicle. It doesn't have to be.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/18 13:46:27


Post by: SemperMortis


 koooaei wrote:

The first list is illegal - you can't give redder armor to a squigosaur - he's not a vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other than that, it's a list that kills nothing and just scores a lot... I don't know, have to watch it play on those tourney tables with 8-10 large los-blocking terrain features but I'm afraid it's not gona work on regular tables with 3-4 at best, and mostly just 1 large in the middle and a couple small ones on each side that are so common in gaming stores.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, the rest of the lists are pretty layed back either. However, the ork that took 3d clearly has a more coherent list. It's hard to tell what was going on there unless we see some batreps. Anyhow, thanks for info!


As already mentioned, yeah the 1st list is legal. But as far as the point of the list itself I can read his intentions pretty well. Turn 1 he has 2 units of Trukkboyz as an alpha strike to keep his opponent honest on deployment if nothing else. He also has 3 units of Kommandos he can plop anywhere to grab objectives, I don't think he used them as another version of Alpha strike though, MSU doesn't do much for them in that regard, though I am curious as to why he gave 2 of the Kommando nobz PKs.

He then has 3 Squigbuggies and 3 DeffKoptas to provide a turn 1 ranged threat and the koptas can be rather annoying in CC mind you. I think the real weight though comes from his turn 2 strike with 2 Squig Nobz, 1 Beastboss on Squigosaur, 6 Squigriders and a few other units that can inflict some dmg in CC. And really, they are Evil Sunz, so they could potentially get a turn 1 charge off if they used their WAAAAGH turn 1. The Riders are M11 since they are evil sunz, average advance roll would be 4.5 so say 4, that gives them a 9' charge turn 1 if their opponent deployed near the edge.

Personally, I agree in that its a bit weird for a list, its split pretty heavily on what its purpose is. It has units that want to get stuck in pretty quick, but it also has MSU boyz/beastboyz who I don't see a purpose for except holding backfield objectives and hoping that the Squigbuggies and CC threats distract your enemy enough. if it were me, Id probably scrap the PK on the Kommandos and the beastboyz entirely and grab 3x15 Kommandos for a really strong Turn 1 threat. 3 max Kommando squads can delete a lot of enemy units/points turn 1 with little inherent risk. If you give them the Squigbomb and distraction grot they are really strong, team them with Da WAAAAGH and they are Melee beatsticks that WILL be in charge range turn 1 unless your opponent deploys really far back.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/18 14:34:24


Post by: Jidmah


It's not illegal though. Redder paint CAN be taken by a vehicle, but any Evil Suns character is fair game.

Kommandoz also don't deep strike, but infiltrate.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/18 14:37:13


Post by: Grimskul


 Jidmah wrote:
It's not illegal though. Redder paint CAN be taken by a vehicle, but any Evil Suns character is fair game.

Kommandoz also don't deep strike, but infiltrate.


Yeah, the main incentive for taking it on a vehicle like the Deffkilla Wartrike is because of the larger base size affecting more units if you're multi-charging, but otherwise you can take it on any character AFAIK.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/18 14:43:24


Post by: Jidmah


I don't think that the base size makes that much of a difference, since those units will eventually get to fight. Assuming the squigosaur has the same base size as the nob, it should be big enough to tag two units.

You also need to keep in mind that when you tag a unit of incubi, a unit of bloodbrides, a succubus and Drazahr, you still end up dead when even when they fight last. Same goes for tagging deathshrouds or Mortarion.

Fight last also makes much more of a difference when you are getting charged anyways, as most units you charge are not fighting before you do anyways.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/18 15:57:42


Post by: koooaei


Oh, right! So, the redder squigosaur all the way!


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/18 17:58:21


Post by: epronovost


 koooaei wrote:
Oh, right! So, the redder squigosaur all the way!


It could also be funny on a Kill Rig. Not only is their base even bigger, but they also pack a descent punch in close combat too. Plus the speed boost is always interesting.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/19 05:04:08


Post by: Jidmah


A kill rig doesn't benefit from LoS, so it can just be shot to bits before it gets anywhere.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/23 15:00:48


Post by: SemperMortis


Last tournament results.

Flying Monkey: Orkz 4th place finish. 0 Boyz/Beastboyz

Wargames for Warriors Orkz 1st and 3rd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 1 Unit of boyz, 2 units of Trukk Boyz and 2 units of Beastboyz. 3rd place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.

Alberta Classic: Orkz 1st and 2nd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 0 units of boyz/beastboyz 2nd Place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.

So 5 Ork top 4 finishes since the codex dropped, and 5 units of boyz/beastboyz total....all from the same list


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/23 15:22:09


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


SemperMortis wrote:
Last tournament results.

Flying Monkey: Orkz 4th place finish. 0 Boyz/Beastboyz

Wargames for Warriors Orkz 1st and 3rd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 1 Unit of boyz, 2 units of Trukk Boyz and 2 units of Beastboyz. 3rd place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.

Alberta Classic: Orkz 1st and 2nd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 0 units of boyz/beastboyz 2nd Place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.

So 5 Ork top 4 finishes since the codex dropped, and 5 units of boyz/beastboyz total....all from the same list

So Truck boys can disembark after the truck moves and then assault. That is competitive and it took place at an event. The army has fundamentally changed but there is 0 debate to be had. A unit of boys disembarking after the truck moves is very good - I'd say a must take but apparently there are other ways to play it.

A lot of top finishes for orks too. Which is also not surprising.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/23 16:12:48


Post by: SemperMortis


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

So Truck boys can disembark after the truck moves and then assault. That is competitive and it took place at an event. The army has fundamentally changed but there is 0 debate to be had. A unit of boys disembarking after the truck moves is very good - I'd say a must take but apparently there are other ways to play it.

A lot of top finishes for orks too. Which is also not surprising.


Trukk boyz are currently illegal RAW

Trukk Boyz are 1 per detachment so at best you can get 3 of them so a maximum of 36 boyz in 3 units which cost you 534pts, previously you could footslog 66boyz for that price.

And only 2 trukkboyz units were taken out of 5 armies. Data is still coming in very slowly, but as of right now, I think the only way to make boyz competitive will be as trukk boyz.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/23 17:51:22


Post by: koooaei


Min squads still can run around and perform actions. Not great but hey, we got what we got.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/25 08:03:54


Post by: Jidmah


SemperMortis wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

So Truck boys can disembark after the truck moves and then assault. That is competitive and it took place at an event. The army has fundamentally changed but there is 0 debate to be had. A unit of boys disembarking after the truck moves is very good - I'd say a must take but apparently there are other ways to play it.

A lot of top finishes for orks too. Which is also not surprising.


Trukk boyz are currently illegal RAW

Trukk Boyz are 1 per detachment so at best you can get 3 of them so a maximum of 36 boyz in 3 units which cost you 534pts, previously you could footslog 66boyz for that price.

And only 2 trukkboyz units were taken out of 5 armies. Data is still coming in very slowly, but as of right now, I think the only way to make boyz competitive will be as trukk boyz.



There also is no reason to run 12 boyz, so it's more like 30.

From my test games so far, more than two units of trukk boyz also feels like a waste of points, they aren't getting targeted over buggies anyways, and especially against marines you rarely have use for than two units since you can't run them into a brick of terminators, gravis or assault oriented marines (blade guard, outriders, assault intercessors) with any hope of winning against them.
Essentially they are for sneaking up a board edge and taking mission objectives from obsec units and scoring secondaries while doing so.

In any case, boyz+trukk+specialist mob need to compare to kommandoz/storm boyz+gretchin, and it's not looking too good for them.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/25 12:50:58


Post by: SemperMortis


 Jidmah wrote:


There also is no reason to run 12 boyz, so it's more like 30.

From my test games so far, more than two units of trukk boyz also feels like a waste of points, they aren't getting targeted over buggies anyways, and especially against marines you rarely have use for than two units since you can't run them into a brick of terminators, gravis or assault oriented marines (blade guard, outriders, assault intercessors) with any hope of winning against them.
Essentially they are for sneaking up a board edge and taking mission objectives from obsec units and scoring secondaries while doing so.

In any case, boyz+trukk+specialist mob need to compare to kommandoz/storm boyz+gretchin, and it's not looking too good for them.


Absolutely agree. If i could take MSU boyz as 5 man squads I would to fill my troop choice, otherwise I won't be taking troops for the most part.
*** Insert Kommandos are awesome rant:
Spoiler:
I do want to point out that the one unit to me that is absolutely out of this world amazing for orkz right now is also a unit people seem hesitant about spamming for some reason. I love Kommandos. 15 of them can easily get a turn 1 charge off and they cost LESS than a trukk boyz unit. 15 Kommandos is 150pts, trukk boyz is 160, (178 if you take all 12). And if you upgrade the Kommandos with the Distraction grot and bomb squig its about the same price. Difference is those Kommandos CAN take on a CC unit of Marines or a brick of terminators and come out on top.

15 Kommandos (Including Nob) as Goffs is 46 attacks, hitting on 3s for 39ish hits, now here is the crazy part, as Goffs they are S5 on the charge so they wound on 3s, but with the distraction grot they wound on 2s so that is 32 wounds at -1AP. Against Terminators that works out to 10.6dmg on average, against regular Intercessor Marines its 16dmg, enough to kill 8 Intercessors in one go.

Compared to that, Trukk boyz are just regular boyz without a kulture that can charge turn 1. 11 boyz is 33 attacks, 22 hits, 11 wounds and 5.5dmg vs Marines, the Nob is 4 attacks, 2.6 hits 1.8ish wounds for 0.9 more dmg. All told you are talking 6-7dmg for a 180ish point unit. Instead of Trukk Boyz you could upgrade a unit of Kommandos to "Sneaky Gitz" to give them an additional -1AP in CC, but in my opinion that isn't that great unless you really don't want to run Kommandos as goffs. Maybe if you are running a freeboota detachment and throw them in as an extra. Sneaky gitz would make them lose their +1S on the charge and exploding 6s to hit which is not worth the -1AP for me. Sneaky git kommandos would end up doing 7-8dmg vs those terminators and 14ish dmg vs Intercessors.


The few test games i've managed have highlighted that with the loss of Morale, with the points increase, and with the loss of KFF, boyz are just too flimsy for what they actually accomplish. Its a bit pathetic really, that 5ppm non-obsec grots which have a 7+ are preferable as a troops tax.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/25 13:21:42


Post by: Jidmah


SemperMortis wrote:
The few test games i've managed have highlighted that with the loss of Morale, with the points increase, and with the loss of KFF, boyz are just too flimsy for what they actually accomplish. Its a bit pathetic really, that 5ppm non-obsec grots which have a 7+ are preferable as a troops tax.


Gretchin are probably even worse than boyz, but I think the issue is that you can get so many awesome things in the codex right now, that not spending 40 points to "upgrade" gretchin into boyz is the right course of action.

I mean, what would you rather pick for scoring:
1) a unit of trukk boyz(90+70+10 for pk = 170)
2) a unit of gretchin AND one of the following: two units of 5 kommandoz (150 points) OR two units of storm boyz (160 points) OR two units of burnas (160 points) OR a unit of 4 warbikers (150 points)

Looking at current ork lists, the answer is rather clear.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/26 14:23:22


Post by: SemperMortis


 Jidmah wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
The few test games i've managed have highlighted that with the loss of Morale, with the points increase, and with the loss of KFF, boyz are just too flimsy for what they actually accomplish. Its a bit pathetic really, that 5ppm non-obsec grots which have a 7+ are preferable as a troops tax.


Gretchin are probably even worse than boyz, but I think the issue is that you can get so many awesome things in the codex right now, that not spending 40 points to "upgrade" gretchin into boyz is the right course of action.

I mean, what would you rather pick for scoring:
1) a unit of trukk boyz(90+70+10 for pk = 170)
2) a unit of gretchin AND one of the following: two units of 5 kommandoz (150 points) OR two units of storm boyz (160 points) OR two units of burnas (160 points) OR a unit of 4 warbikers (150 points)

Looking at current ork lists, the answer is rather clear.


Absolutely. Which don't get me wrong, I am fine with having less internal balance if it means we have more than a handful of units that can carry the list. Spamming as many Mek Gunz as you could was kind of boring in itself.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/26 15:10:03


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


SemperMortis wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

So Truck boys can disembark after the truck moves and then assault. That is competitive and it took place at an event. The army has fundamentally changed but there is 0 debate to be had. A unit of boys disembarking after the truck moves is very good - I'd say a must take but apparently there are other ways to play it.

A lot of top finishes for orks too. Which is also not surprising.


Trukk boyz are currently illegal RAW

Trukk Boyz are 1 per detachment so at best you can get 3 of them so a maximum of 36 boyz in 3 units which cost you 534pts, previously you could footslog 66boyz for that price.

And only 2 trukkboyz units were taken out of 5 armies. Data is still coming in very slowly, but as of right now, I think the only way to make boyz competitive will be as trukk boyz.


LOL previously ork boys were T4 with ap-0. Now T5 and ap-1.

Boys are great. ESP truck boys.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/26 16:41:43


Post by: SemperMortis


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

LOL previously ork boys were T4 with ap-0. Now T5 and ap-1.

Boys are great. ESP truck boys.


And those old T4 boyz with AP-0 were 8ppm (over priced), got +1 attack from 20+ models, could fight twice, could come back from the dead and were functionally fearless.
The new Boyz are T5 Ap-1 with choppas and 9ppm (over priced) they lost +1 to attack, they lost morale rules, they lost fight twice, they lost green tide and they lost cheap reliable 5++ invulns. The stratagem that replaced nob and warbosses ability is 2CP and does basically what a morale check does anyway.

Trukkboyz are good for a turn 1 charge...except that they are MORE expensive than Kommandos who do the same job except Kommandos do it better and more reliably. Maxed out Trukkboyz unit is 188pts with a PK. For that same price I could take a unit of 10 Kommandos with Bomb Squig and distraction grot AND a unit of 6 Kommandos The Kommando Nob gets his PK for 5pts which is the cheapest in the entire codex. Oh, and I would still have 8pts left over


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/26 18:11:54


Post by: the_scotsman


Like it or not there will never be any way to actually prove if a unit in a codex is objectively a strong, weak, or average unit if overtuned elements in that list exist.

It's pretty obvious that Orks are looking like a codex that's at least as good as DG was in comparison to the meta when they dropped....assuming you take the strongest elements in the 'dex and spam them (flyers, buggies.)

regardless of whether boyz are a bad unit that would get a 45% winrate, an average unit that would get a 50% winrate, or a good unit that would get a 55% winrate, competitive ork lists are going to be using the 65% winrate buggies and flyers unless those get reduced in power.

It's like wondering how good of a unit admech battle servitors and robots are. Who knows? Can't tell objectively, all we can say is that theyre worse than skitarii blocks, chicken walkers and flyers.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/26 18:20:40


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


SemperMortis wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

LOL previously ork boys were T4 with ap-0. Now T5 and ap-1.

Boys are great. ESP truck boys.


And those old T4 boyz with AP-0 were 8ppm (over priced), got +1 attack from 20+ models, could fight twice, could come back from the dead and were functionally fearless.
The new Boyz are T5 Ap-1 with choppas and 9ppm (over priced) they lost +1 to attack, they lost morale rules, they lost fight twice, they lost green tide and they lost cheap reliable 5++ invulns. The stratagem that replaced nob and warbosses ability is 2CP and does basically what a morale check does anyway.

Trukkboyz are good for a turn 1 charge...except that they are MORE expensive than Kommandos who do the same job except Kommandos do it better and more reliably. Maxed out Trukkboyz unit is 188pts with a PK. For that same price I could take a unit of 10 Kommandos with Bomb Squig and distraction grot AND a unit of 6 Kommandos The Kommando Nob gets his PK for 5pts which is the cheapest in the entire codex. Oh, and I would still have 8pts left over

Boys are a troop too. Don't leave that out. kind of important. Go ahead and tac 50 points for useless Gretchen to that commando unit and it stops looking so hot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Like it or not there will never be any way to actually prove if a unit in a codex is objectively a strong, weak, or average unit if overtuned elements in that list exist.

It's pretty obvious that Orks are looking like a codex that's at least as good as DG was in comparison to the meta when they dropped....assuming you take the strongest elements in the 'dex and spam them (flyers, buggies.)

regardless of whether boyz are a bad unit that would get a 45% winrate, an average unit that would get a 50% winrate, or a good unit that would get a 55% winrate, competitive ork lists are going to be using the 65% winrate buggies and flyers unless those get reduced in power.

It's like wondering how good of a unit admech battle servitors and robots are. Who knows? Can't tell objectively, all we can say is that theyre worse than skitarii blocks, chicken walkers and flyers.

We can easily look at the mathhammer though. Kataphron battle servitors are objectively bad. No core / cost too much points / hit on 4's lol.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/26 19:19:01


Post by: the_scotsman


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

LOL previously ork boys were T4 with ap-0. Now T5 and ap-1.

Boys are great. ESP truck boys.


And those old T4 boyz with AP-0 were 8ppm (over priced), got +1 attack from 20+ models, could fight twice, could come back from the dead and were functionally fearless.
The new Boyz are T5 Ap-1 with choppas and 9ppm (over priced) they lost +1 to attack, they lost morale rules, they lost fight twice, they lost green tide and they lost cheap reliable 5++ invulns. The stratagem that replaced nob and warbosses ability is 2CP and does basically what a morale check does anyway.

Trukkboyz are good for a turn 1 charge...except that they are MORE expensive than Kommandos who do the same job except Kommandos do it better and more reliably. Maxed out Trukkboyz unit is 188pts with a PK. For that same price I could take a unit of 10 Kommandos with Bomb Squig and distraction grot AND a unit of 6 Kommandos The Kommando Nob gets his PK for 5pts which is the cheapest in the entire codex. Oh, and I would still have 8pts left over

Boys are a troop too. Don't leave that out. kind of important. Go ahead and tac 50 points for useless Gretchen to that commando unit and it stops looking so hot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Like it or not there will never be any way to actually prove if a unit in a codex is objectively a strong, weak, or average unit if overtuned elements in that list exist.

It's pretty obvious that Orks are looking like a codex that's at least as good as DG was in comparison to the meta when they dropped....assuming you take the strongest elements in the 'dex and spam them (flyers, buggies.)

regardless of whether boyz are a bad unit that would get a 45% winrate, an average unit that would get a 50% winrate, or a good unit that would get a 55% winrate, competitive ork lists are going to be using the 65% winrate buggies and flyers unless those get reduced in power.

It's like wondering how good of a unit admech battle servitors and robots are. Who knows? Can't tell objectively, all we can say is that theyre worse than skitarii blocks, chicken walkers and flyers.

We can easily look at the mathhammer though. Kataphron battle servitors are objectively bad. No core / cost too much points / hit on 4's lol.



it appears to be general consensus among tournament players that ork stratagems are poor enough that people are perfectly happy to spend 3-8CP pre-game on only having to bring 1 single troop choice (patrol+outrider being the most common structure) and that's typically gretchins. Sometimes it's one single min trukk boyz squad, but trukk boyz evidently aren't good enough to justify bringing a second squad in that second detachment. Kommandos most certainly are good enough that almost nobody's leaving home without 3 squads.

on the subject of kataphrons, hitting on 4s, not having core, and 'too many points' are all subjective opinions or just...elements of a stat block. Plenty of units cost less, have core and hit on 3s or 2s and are quite bad - see tactical marines. The reality is, admech, just like orks, is a competitive book, but the units taken in competitive lists generally to my experience include no battle servitors and very few choose to include ork boyz. Some appear to include one single unit of trukk boyz, but most opt for one single unit of gretchins instead.

you see this come up a lot, generally in the other direction admittedly with people claiming "the whole entire book is OP!!!" when a particular faction is competitively dominant and getting into knock down drag out arguments about how crazy...SM 2.0 tactical marines or 7th ed eldar dire avengers or whatever are.

You just can't use the only available dataset, tournament data, to prove the strength of a unit that isn't appearing in tournament lists where the book is strong.

You can if the book is weak - if the unit were strong, people would be using it, therefore the unit is weak and probably incredibly weak if it's also not even appearing in the competitive lists people are trying to bring with the faction.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/26 19:26:51


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


Competitive play is basically follow the leader.

I suppose right now - every point not being spent on scrapjets and the like is a point wasted. Which I am not disagreeing with.

Can they be competitive? yeah. They can. They are well in that range.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/26 20:42:44


Post by: Tyel


I think you've got this situation where Speedwaaagh with mass buggies and flyers and Kommandos+Storm Boyz to grab objectives seems very competitive (/too good) - but not explicitly broken compared with DE/Ad Mech/Sisters, and frankly even Marines/DG.

I don't think Boyz are terrible - but they are not bringing anything obvious to that sort of list. Saying they need to be buffed effectively means they need to be "better" than the thing I think is already S tier or whatever we want to describe it. Which kind of means making them ludicrous.

Partly though this is that I'm still in the "DE are overpowered and need to be toned down" camp - but increasingly they just seem to be the new normal (with a bit of an edge, but not a ludicrous one). Roll on the CWE/Guard/GSC/Tau etc codexes and I guess we'll see where we stand.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/26 22:16:54


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:
Wargames for Warriors Orkz 1st and 3rd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 1 Unit of boyz, 2 units of Trukk Boyz and 2 units of Beastboyz. 3rd place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.


I dunno. Spending over 500 on boyz, 140 on Trukks, and getting first place doesn't tell me Boyz are useless. People can take buggy spam with no KFF and watch chaos plasma cannons eat them up at their own peril. Kommandos are great and all, but...limited to three, are not CORE, and won't have the option of a 6" pile-in and consolidate.

( Which is to say each has their place not that Kommandos are bad )



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/26 22:40:11


Post by: cody.d.


SemperMortis wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

LOL previously ork boys were T4 with ap-0. Now T5 and ap-1.

Boys are great. ESP truck boys.


And those old T4 boyz with AP-0 were 8ppm (over priced), got +1 attack from 20+ models, could fight twice, could come back from the dead and were functionally fearless.
The new Boyz are T5 Ap-1 with choppas and 9ppm (over priced) they lost +1 to attack, they lost morale rules, they lost fight twice, they lost green tide and they lost cheap reliable 5++ invulns. The stratagem that replaced nob and warbosses ability is 2CP and does basically what a morale check does anyway.

Trukkboyz are good for a turn 1 charge...except that they are MORE expensive than Kommandos who do the same job except Kommandos do it better and more reliably. Maxed out Trukkboyz unit is 188pts with a PK. For that same price I could take a unit of 10 Kommandos with Bomb Squig and distraction grot AND a unit of 6 Kommandos The Kommando Nob gets his PK for 5pts which is the cheapest in the entire codex. Oh, and I would still have 8pts left over


A lot of this feels a bit dishonest. Every positive the boyz had before was fairly situational. They got 20+ models in big units, big vulnerable units so in my experience you didn't always get that benefit and felt bad for deploying a unit under 20. Yes you were fearless, sometimes. Yes you could come back from the dead, but you needed to have some of the unit left first and it would cost you a sizable chunk of your CP allowance.

You can get a lot of the same power nowdays by taking MSU units. Your LD tests are not all or nothing unless the opponent chooses to kill a small number of boyz from every single unit rather than wiping them off one by one. You get more nobz which are free upgrades (except if you take a klaw of course, but they're cheap and reliableish now.) Yes the KFF is weaker in a lot of scenarios. But getting anything more than one large mob under the effect of a KFF would cripple your ability to spread out and control space. And once you actually moved there's a solid chance you'd be out of KFF range until you took enough causalities to fit again.

Now for that crucial first turn of shooting you do indeed have to spend 2CP to get back the 5++, but now you just to have part of 1 base and boom, the entire unit is protected. So the amount of stuff one mek can give a 5++ is pretty damn incredible. And it works in combat if your opponents alpha strike includes some melee options. (Which most good lists will, looking at you smashcaptains) What was once thought to be a typo is now confirmed.

If you wanted a great first turn you could easily build around it. Trukkboyz, Kommandoz, stormboyz and bikers. Give em a waagh and you're getting a fairly good amount of lads into combat without riding on high charge ranges. and you have an okay increase in durability and damage output with the profile changes.

The big changes between the 8th and 9th books are that boyz have a lower maximum output, but on the other hand they're a bit more independent and i'd argue because of it, more versatile for completing missions.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/26 23:49:24


Post by: SemperMortis


cody.d. wrote:


A lot of this feels a bit dishonest. Every positive the boyz had before was fairly situational. They got 20+ models in big units, big vulnerable units so in my experience you didn't always get that benefit and felt bad for deploying a unit under 20. Yes you were fearless, sometimes. Yes you could come back from the dead, but you needed to have some of the unit left first and it would cost you a sizable chunk of your CP allowance.


If you had 1-10 boys left you ALWAYS green tided lets take a look at the value. Right now, its 2CP to Kill D3 boyz and pass morale. 2CP. Green Tide was a 3CP strat that let you bring back upwards of 29 boyz, usually 20-29 which is 160-232pts of value. That was HUGE! That was also the reason why your opponent wouldn't multi-target boyz units because if you didn't finish 1 off 100%, it could come back.

cody.d. wrote:
You can get a lot of the same power nowdays by taking MSU units. Your LD tests are not all or nothing unless the opponent chooses to kill a small number of boyz from every single unit rather than wiping them off one by one. You get more nobz which are free upgrades (except if you take a klaw of course, but they're cheap and reliableish now.) Yes the KFF is weaker in a lot of scenarios. But getting anything more than one large mob under the effect of a KFF would cripple your ability to spread out and control space. And once you actually moved there's a solid chance you'd be out of KFF range until you took enough causalities to fit again.


As mentioned above, the reason why opponents didn't multi-target boyz units was because of Green tide. You could just spend CP and regain hundreds of points of models. It was frankly, OP. Now, turn 1, there isn't a reason not to multi-target since all you need is to kill 4 boyz to force a 50/50 morale check. The KFF was a huge nerf for objective holding. Having to shift 30 bodies with T4 and 5++ was annoying to say the least for opponents. A 6++ isn't worth mentioning really. Rather telling that they stripped that 6++ from Deffskullz to make the KFF have a purpose at all.

cody.d. wrote:
Now for that crucial first turn of shooting you do indeed have to spend 2CP to get back the 5++, but now you just to have part of 1 base and boom, the entire unit is protected. So the amount of stuff one mek can give a 5++ is pretty damn incredible. And it works in combat if your opponents alpha strike includes some melee options. (Which most good lists will, looking at you smashcaptains) What was once thought to be a typo is now confirmed.


Right, and what happens after you spend 2CP to get back what the KFF used to do? It blows up and can't be used for the rest of the game. At best its a situational upgrade, at worse...(most likely) its a straight nerf. Especially now since we are spamming buggies more than anything else, and fitting more than a couple under a KFF is hard.

cody.d. wrote:
If you wanted a great first turn you could easily build around it. Trukkboyz, Kommandoz, stormboyz and bikers. Give em a waagh and you're getting a fairly good amount of lads into combat without riding on high charge ranges. and you have an okay increase in durability and damage output with the profile changes.

The big changes between the 8th and 9th books are that boyz have a lower maximum output, but on the other hand they're a bit more independent and i'd argue because of it, more versatile for completing missions.


Bikers are M14 which is great, but they are predominantly a shooting unit, not a CC unit. So if you forego shooting you aren't getting much value out of those warbikes since they are essentially a really tough 25pt Boy. Trukkyboyz, they are good for an alpha strike unit, but you lose kulture which basically makes them no kulture boyz which means at best you are getting 33 attacks at S4 AP-1 or 44 with WAAAAGH and then whatever you equip the nob with. I don't understand the need to lose kulture to get the specialist detachments, none are super strong. Kommandos are great, and Stormboyz are much better with their new rules and Price. Basically anything boyz can do, can be done cheaper and better by a host of other options now.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/27 00:11:08


Post by: cody.d.


In the previous editions after the first turn you frequently didn't get your KFF on anything important unless you chose to have it sitting in the backfield. Especially when GW decided to make the big mek on bike a legends option. So having the KFF only function for turn 1 isn't a massive loss IMO. An ork army that wants to focus on melee should very much be focusing on getting into combat in their second turn, if not their first. So if your big mek isn't giving out an invul by then I don't think it's a big deal. It's part of why the mega mek has been on the rise. You can either keep the KMB or give him the DDS and pump out some nice support fire while doing a little healing here and there.

And claiming the invul was taken off deffskulls was just "to make the KFF have a purpose at all" is a bit on the conspiracy theory side of thing. And doesn't hold water because beast snaggas got that invul as an inbuilt rule. It's more likely just an issue of GW being a bit hamfisted with their allocation of special rules. Which, well we see that fairly often right?

Trukkboyz make a good supplement rather than a replacement. If you use them in tandem with the units I've mentioned you end up with great target saturation, your opponent blinks and boom, first turn he has a variety of units chipping away at his front lines. Hell if you're lucky maybe even those trukks made it in, or are otherwise being used to block important movement lanes.

Trying to evaluate a unit purely based on it's stats can be hard. But if I'm honest the only reason I would take big units of boyz right now would be some of the ork specific secondaries and the small number of stratagems that may be worth while. Stomp em good likes chunky units with the ability to kill and absorb wounds. Though green tide doesn't really care how big the actual units are, just that you have a certain number of models.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/27 05:03:51


Post by: koooaei


The problem with comparing previous boyz with green tide and current t5 boyz is that they have different roles. Previously you could add 30 to any list, reliably deep strike them and basically force your opponent to deal with them while your other stuff rolls around, scores and kills the enemy. Even better If those boyz made a charge.
They either got 6++ or +1 to charge which upped the chance of making it into combat to basically 3+. And than, if even a single boy remained, you could green tide and get another 30.
Or you could just footslog a couple 30- man squads protected by fnp and 5++ or 6++ and more reliably score mid board + get easier greentide cause they're further from the opponent.

That were solid strategies that nothing else in our army could perform.

Now greentide ia out of the picture, large squads are too vulnerable to ld, no +1 charge or free 6++, deepstriking is much less reliable and together with the nerfs to large squads, you're better off deepstriking something like 9 bikers on a flank from a hiding place with less problems in case the cast fails.
So, boyz have to change a role. To what? Basically, to msu point holders and action performers. And in this role they compare unfavorably to kommandoes and stormboyz. And when you need troops to save CP, you can either take 10 boyz for 90 pts to sit behind blos and perform actions or rush to a point and perform actions or, for just 10 more you can have 10 grots + 5 kommandoes to sit behind blos and perform actions or rush to a point and perform actions but in 2 different places.

Another option are trukk boyz that might have a niche atdealing with opponent's scoring but they compete with squig buggies in this role. Also, 3 manz can be trukkboyz and it's obvious, the opponent's scoring would rather have 10 boyz than 3 manz in their face. Both are a bit too pricey for what they do. And more than 2 trukkboyz is a waste. More likely, 1. But than again, for 160 pts you can have 10 grots and 2*5 stormboyz or kommandoes that are better at other stuff while your buggies and planes deal with opponent's scoring...

It's no use comparing bare stats as, yes, t5 and ap1 for 9 pts is clearly better than t4 and ap0 for 8, but the thing is you must not compare stats. You must compare the unit's functionality.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/27 07:05:01


Post by: Jidmah


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Wargames for Warriors Orkz 1st and 3rd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 1 Unit of boyz, 2 units of Trukk Boyz and 2 units of Beastboyz. 3rd place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.


I dunno. Spending over 500 on boyz, 140 on Trukks, and getting first place doesn't tell me Boyz are useless. People can take buggy spam with no KFF and watch chaos plasma cannons eat them up at their own peril. Kommandos are great and all, but...limited to three, are not CORE, and won't have the option of a 6" pile-in and consolidate.

( Which is to say each has their place not that Kommandos are bad )


Kommadoz are core though.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/27 23:05:05


Post by: SemperMortis


 Jidmah wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Wargames for Warriors Orkz 1st and 3rd Place Finish. 1st Place list had 1 Unit of boyz, 2 units of Trukk Boyz and 2 units of Beastboyz. 3rd place list had 0 Boyz/Beastboyz.


I dunno. Spending over 500 on boyz, 140 on Trukks, and getting first place doesn't tell me Boyz are useless. People can take buggy spam with no KFF and watch chaos plasma cannons eat them up at their own peril. Kommandos are great and all, but...limited to three, are not CORE, and won't have the option of a 6" pile-in and consolidate.

( Which is to say each has their place not that Kommandos are bad )


Kommadoz are core though.


Yep they are. I also just listened to the podcast where the guy went over his strat for that game. His boyz were used exclusively to take and hold objectives and to die as slowly as possible. That is it. Can't question the results, he is i think 20th in ITC right now, but at the same time he openly admits this is his first/second iteration of a competitive ork list with the new codex.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/28 16:52:31


Post by: Jidmah


Why does he use beast snagga boyz with that tactic though?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/30 12:44:16


Post by: SemperMortis


 Jidmah wrote:
Why does he use beast snagga boyz with that tactic though?
He didn't say specifically in his podcast interview, i'm guessing they were the ones pushing forward into the enemy, that +1 strength and 6++ can be useful


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/30 13:09:12


Post by: Afrodactyl


I've been using three units of trukk boys in my list, on the assumption that it works as we believe was intended rather than how it is written.

So far I've found that they're pretty good, but they need to be supported otherwise they're basically a waste of points. They can't be the only threat you push into your opponents face and they can't be the only thing running around grabbing objectives and performing actions.

Mine are supported by two units of ten kommandos and two units of five stormboys, for plenty of fast moving obsec infantry, and the rest of the list is pretty much bosses, buggies and koptas to do the heavy lifting and draw fire as the bigger threats.

I would probably be better off just going for a full on buggy bonanza, but I can't justify spending even more money at the moment


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/30 14:13:45


Post by: Jidmah


Same. I essentially just use them to switch off obsec while my other units do the heavy lifting.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/08/30 14:18:01


Post by: SemperMortis


 Afrodactyl wrote:
I've been using three units of trukk boys in my list, on the assumption that it works as we believe was intended rather than how it is written.

So far I've found that they're pretty good, but they need to be supported otherwise they're basically a waste of points. They can't be the only threat you push into your opponents face and they can't be the only thing running around grabbing objectives and performing actions.

Mine are supported by two units of ten kommandos and two units of five stormboys, for plenty of fast moving obsec infantry, and the rest of the list is pretty much bosses, buggies and koptas to do the heavy lifting and draw fire as the bigger threats.

I would probably be better off just going for a full on buggy bonanza, but I can't justify spending even more money at the moment


I think GW REALLY wants Orkz to be an alpha strike army...which actually makes a lot of sense, since their armor is garbage and morale is a killer which means unless they get into your lines quick as can be they won't last long.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/01 17:56:00


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


SemperMortis wrote:
 Afrodactyl wrote:
I've been using three units of trukk boys in my list, on the assumption that it works as we believe was intended rather than how it is written.

So far I've found that they're pretty good, but they need to be supported otherwise they're basically a waste of points. They can't be the only threat you push into your opponents face and they can't be the only thing running around grabbing objectives and performing actions.

Mine are supported by two units of ten kommandos and two units of five stormboys, for plenty of fast moving obsec infantry, and the rest of the list is pretty much bosses, buggies and koptas to do the heavy lifting and draw fire as the bigger threats.

I would probably be better off just going for a full on buggy bonanza, but I can't justify spending even more money at the moment


I think GW REALLY wants Orkz to be an alpha strike army...which actually makes a lot of sense, since their armor is garbage and morale is a killer which means unless they get into your lines quick as can be they won't last long.

Holy gak 9x squiggle buggies
https://www.40kstats.com/wgopen
First place out of almost 80 who would have thought?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/01 19:57:40


Post by: Blackie


And again, how many boyz?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/01 20:43:27


Post by: Dudeface


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Afrodactyl wrote:
I've been using three units of trukk boys in my list, on the assumption that it works as we believe was intended rather than how it is written.

So far I've found that they're pretty good, but they need to be supported otherwise they're basically a waste of points. They can't be the only threat you push into your opponents face and they can't be the only thing running around grabbing objectives and performing actions.

Mine are supported by two units of ten kommandos and two units of five stormboys, for plenty of fast moving obsec infantry, and the rest of the list is pretty much bosses, buggies and koptas to do the heavy lifting and draw fire as the bigger threats.

I would probably be better off just going for a full on buggy bonanza, but I can't justify spending even more money at the moment


I think GW REALLY wants Orkz to be an alpha strike army...which actually makes a lot of sense, since their armor is garbage and morale is a killer which means unless they get into your lines quick as can be they won't last long.

Holy gak 9x squiggle buggies
https://www.40kstats.com/wgopen
First place out of almost 80 who would have thought?


Clearly Xenomancer was just ahead of his time calling squig buggies OP, vindicated at last dude.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/01 20:43:39


Post by: Tyel


Going to be interesting to see what the tournament scene looks like in late September.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/01 21:17:12


Post by: Daedalus81


 Blackie wrote:
And again, how many boyz?


A bit of a skew list and precisely why I'm stocking up on D3.

So, what happens if Orks take over DE as top dog? There isn't a lot of FAQ-able stuff - it'd have to be all points, I think.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/01 23:34:11


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And again, how many boyz?


A bit of a skew list and precisely why I'm stocking up on D3.

So, what happens if Orks take over DE as top dog? There isn't a lot of FAQ-able stuff - it'd have to be all points, I think.



Ready for this Marine Players (not saying you daed calm down).....Buggies....are under priced. OMG! you can admit some units are over powered in a way without ruining the world!

A scrapjet was competitive at 110pts, at 90....its pushing into the bounds of OP. The only good thing is that most of the "buffs" don't impact it in a direct/meaningful way, and their kustom jobz all got nerfed into the ground. I would still hazard a guess they are 5-10pts under priced. But the Big shootas are still useless for the most part. Even in Dakka range they average 8.33 hits a turn. that works out to less than 2dmg per a turn against a Marine.

But yeah, important to note that those buggy lists contain almost no boyz at all. I mean...my competitive list has 30 boyz total in 3 detachments, but all are trukk boyz specifically for alpha strike potential.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 06:07:41


Post by: koooaei


SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And again, how many boyz?


A bit of a skew list and precisely why I'm stocking up on D3.

So, what happens if Orks take over DE as top dog? There isn't a lot of FAQ-able stuff - it'd have to be all points, I think.



Ready for this Marine Players (not saying you daed calm down).....Buggies....are under priced. OMG! you can admit some units are over powered in a way without ruining the world!

A scrapjet was competitive at 110pts, at 90....its pushing into the bounds of OP. The only good thing is that most of the "buffs" don't impact it in a direct/meaningful way, and their kustom jobz all got nerfed into the ground. I would still hazard a guess they are 5-10pts under priced. But the Big shootas are still useless for the most part. Even in Dakka range they average 8.33 hits a turn. that works out to less than 2dmg per a turn against a Marine.

But yeah, important to note that those buggy lists contain almost no boyz at all. I mean...my competitive list has 30 boyz total in 3 detachments, but all are trukk boyz specifically for alpha strike potential.


Speedwaagh bigshootas on a skrapjet deal comparable amount of damage to rokkits vs -1 dmg targets with at least 5++. And there are lots of those.

If you try to shoot a dreadnaught with 5++, your rokkits will deal 2.22 damage while your bigshootas will deal 1.78.

Hard to call it "bigshootas are still useless". And if you calculate the damage output vs Mortarion, bigshootas actually deal more damage than rokkits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are "it-s" Of course. You need to be within Dakka range. Also, if you trigger freeboota +1 to hit, rokkits will start dealing almost twice the damage of bigshootas. But bigshootas are still good, especially for the price you pay.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 06:44:54


Post by: Blackie


 Daedalus81 wrote:


A bit of a skew list and precisely why I'm stocking up on D3.



Competitive orks always have been skew lists. We're discussing boyz as a competitive unit, aka solid part of tournament lists. It doesn't look like they are widely considered in competitive games.

I don't like this kind of skew lists with tons of ork MSU and to me it's precisely tailored against drukhari, which are excellent in taking out large blobs of infantries but terrible in dealing with cheap MSU. I will keep playing boyz (2 min units of 10) because they fit my playstyle more, and with the trukk boyz gimmick they aren't terrible. But I understand why tournament players stay away from boyz, we have seen multiple competitive lists based on very different playstyles that all had one thing in common: they had no boyz at all or very little amount of boyz at best.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 07:06:02


Post by: Jidmah


Agree with blackie, the buggy list is tailored to kill drukhari and admech right now, meta hasn't finished shaking yet.

The scrapjet doesn't strike me as particularly OP when playing it, it's just the best out of many good options because of 3 dmg weapons.
What I do see is squig buggies going up 5 or 10 points, their indirect shooting is very powerful and rather cheap for what other armies get in comparison.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 08:54:57


Post by: Blackie


To be fair I confused this buggy list with the one posted on the ork tactics thread, which was MSU oriented with lots of min squads of specialists, gretchins and no boyz, despite 80ish infantry models in total. I was referring to that one, my mistake.

But it's true, this particular buggy list is also tailored against the current 2-3 most competitive factions. Which is no surprise, orks top lists are typically tailored to counter the most effective armies, with the rock-paper-scissor attitude in mind.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 14:44:21


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


 Blackie wrote:
To be fair I confused this buggy list with the one posted on the ork tactics thread, which was MSU oriented with lots of min squads of specialists, gretchins and no boyz, despite 80ish infantry models in total. I was referring to that one, my mistake.

But it's true, this particular buggy list is also tailored against the current 2-3 most competitive factions. Which is no surprise, orks top lists are typically tailored to counter the most effective armies, with the rock-paper-scissor attitude in mind.

It's not a tailor really. It is just a power curve. Then again - your odds of encountering custodians or space marines or DG (stuff the opposite of what admech and drukari profiles are) are probably higher than running into Admech or DE. It takes overtunned to beat overtunned - it really is that simple.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 15:06:00


Post by: Karol


Not in my part of the world. 1/3 of all played armies at events, including the bigger ones are DE armies, and ad mecha are not that much smaller.

It is actually funny, because for all the model support and supposed broken rules, marines struggle to get in to upper half of big events. WS still seem be above avarge good though, for space marines. Custodes too, but maybe it is the guys playing the armies. Few players, but they always go high up. Maybe not top 8, but they skim it.

I wonder when we are going to see the 1ksons/GK impact on the meta though. Is going to be interesting to watch for me.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 15:41:57


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


Karol wrote:
Not in my part of the world. 1/3 of all played armies at events, including the bigger ones are DE armies, and ad mecha are not that much smaller.

It is actually funny, because for all the model support and supposed broken rules, marines struggle to get in to upper half of big events. WS still seem be above avarge good though, for space marines. Custodes too, but maybe it is the guys playing the armies. Few players, but they always go high up. Maybe not top 8, but they skim it.

I wonder when we are going to see the 1ksons/GK impact on the meta though. Is going to be interesting to watch for me.
Since the game can be won by not fighting at all and just using maneuvering and scoring gimmicks - any army can win. The way you really figure out what armys are strong is by throwing them into octagon - which isn't very important anymore because tabling your opponent doesn't win you the game.

GK and TS are both very strong as are orks.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 16:27:17


Post by: the_scotsman


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Karol wrote:
Not in my part of the world. 1/3 of all played armies at events, including the bigger ones are DE armies, and ad mecha are not that much smaller.

It is actually funny, because for all the model support and supposed broken rules, marines struggle to get in to upper half of big events. WS still seem be above avarge good though, for space marines. Custodes too, but maybe it is the guys playing the armies. Few players, but they always go high up. Maybe not top 8, but they skim it.

I wonder when we are going to see the 1ksons/GK impact on the meta though. Is going to be interesting to watch for me.
Since the game can be won by not fighting at all and just using maneuvering and scoring gimmicks - any army can win. The way you really figure out what armys are strong is by throwing them into octagon - which isn't very important anymore because tabling your opponent doesn't win you the game.

GK and TS are both very strong as are orks.


I remember when george washington won the revolutionary war by throwing his troops into the octagon and just a'sluggin' it out.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 16:30:03


Post by: Dudeface


 the_scotsman wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Karol wrote:
Not in my part of the world. 1/3 of all played armies at events, including the bigger ones are DE armies, and ad mecha are not that much smaller.

It is actually funny, because for all the model support and supposed broken rules, marines struggle to get in to upper half of big events. WS still seem be above avarge good though, for space marines. Custodes too, but maybe it is the guys playing the armies. Few players, but they always go high up. Maybe not top 8, but they skim it.

I wonder when we are going to see the 1ksons/GK impact on the meta though. Is going to be interesting to watch for me.
Since the game can be won by not fighting at all and just using maneuvering and scoring gimmicks - any army can win. The way you really figure out what armys are strong is by throwing them into octagon - which isn't very important anymore because tabling your opponent doesn't win you the game.

GK and TS are both very strong as are orks.


I remember when george washington won the revolutionary war by throwing his troops into the octagon and just a'sluggin' it out.


There's a TV series I'd watch.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 16:44:08


Post by: Karol


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Since the game can be won by not fighting at all and just using maneuvering and scoring gimmicks - any army can win. The way you really figure out what armys are strong is by throwing them into octagon - which isn't very important anymore because tabling your opponent doesn't win you the game.

GK and TS are both very strong as are orks.


Most good armies in 9th, maybe even all, more or less play or played solitare. Not really carrying much what the opponent does, because they more or less have garenteeed secondaries, have no problems with killing stuff, if they want to kill it and have superior movment. Often combined with rules that ignore the core rules. All armies starting with the aggresor salamander lists at the start of 9th to the buggy lists we see from orks now, play in a similar way. And no I don't claim the salamander build were on the same level as orks are now. They were more like pre nerf DE.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 17:46:00


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


 the_scotsman wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Karol wrote:
Not in my part of the world. 1/3 of all played armies at events, including the bigger ones are DE armies, and ad mecha are not that much smaller.

It is actually funny, because for all the model support and supposed broken rules, marines struggle to get in to upper half of big events. WS still seem be above avarge good though, for space marines. Custodes too, but maybe it is the guys playing the armies. Few players, but they always go high up. Maybe not top 8, but they skim it.

I wonder when we are going to see the 1ksons/GK impact on the meta though. Is going to be interesting to watch for me.
Since the game can be won by not fighting at all and just using maneuvering and scoring gimmicks - any army can win. The way you really figure out what armys are strong is by throwing them into octagon - which isn't very important anymore because tabling your opponent doesn't win you the game.

GK and TS are both very strong as are orks.


I remember when george washington won the revolutionary war by throwing his troops into the octagon and just a'sluggin' it out.
Can you name a single historical reference were A faction won a battle by losing all their forces? I'll wait. Also it is strange - I am sure if Washington had the option to chose which objectives he could achieve to win the war. He would have preferred to do it by "Raising the banners high" rather than fighting battles - because there is just no telling what can happen in a battle - that is too risky.

In any case I am not saying the rules of the game should change. Just saying that overall strength of a faction is not properly evaluated with these victory conditions. It certainly doesn't hurt to have the most powerful units. That doesn't automatically mean you are going to win.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 17:49:33


Post by: Rihgu


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Karol wrote:
Not in my part of the world. 1/3 of all played armies at events, including the bigger ones are DE armies, and ad mecha are not that much smaller.

It is actually funny, because for all the model support and supposed broken rules, marines struggle to get in to upper half of big events. WS still seem be above avarge good though, for space marines. Custodes too, but maybe it is the guys playing the armies. Few players, but they always go high up. Maybe not top 8, but they skim it.

I wonder when we are going to see the 1ksons/GK impact on the meta though. Is going to be interesting to watch for me.
Since the game can be won by not fighting at all and just using maneuvering and scoring gimmicks - any army can win. The way you really figure out what armys are strong is by throwing them into octagon - which isn't very important anymore because tabling your opponent doesn't win you the game.

GK and TS are both very strong as are orks.


I remember when george washington won the revolutionary war by throwing his troops into the octagon and just a'sluggin' it out.
Can you name a single historical reference were A faction won a battle by losing all their forces? I'll wait. Also it is strange - I am sure if Washington had the option to chose which objectives he could achieve to win the war. He would have preferred to do it by "Raising the banners high" rather than fighting battles - because there is just no telling what can happen in a battle - that is too risky.

In any case I am not saying the rules of the game should change. Just saying that overall strength of a faction is not properly evaluated with these victory conditions. It certainly doesn't hurt to have the most powerful units. That doesn't automatically mean you are going to win.


Are you saying that faction strength isn't determined by ability/ease of winning games, but rather how well they destroy enemy models/units?

Ie:
A faction that destroys every enemy unit every single game but never wins the game is stronger than a faction that never destroys a single enemy model but wins every single game?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 18:11:38


Post by: Altruizine


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Karol wrote:
Not in my part of the world. 1/3 of all played armies at events, including the bigger ones are DE armies, and ad mecha are not that much smaller.

It is actually funny, because for all the model support and supposed broken rules, marines struggle to get in to upper half of big events. WS still seem be above avarge good though, for space marines. Custodes too, but maybe it is the guys playing the armies. Few players, but they always go high up. Maybe not top 8, but they skim it.

I wonder when we are going to see the 1ksons/GK impact on the meta though. Is going to be interesting to watch for me.
Since the game can be won by not fighting at all and just using maneuvering and scoring gimmicks - any army can win. The way you really figure out what armys are strong is by throwing them into octagon - which isn't very important anymore because tabling your opponent doesn't win you the game.

GK and TS are both very strong as are orks.


I remember when george washington won the revolutionary war by throwing his troops into the octagon and just a'sluggin' it out.
Can you name a single historical reference were A faction won a battle by losing all their forces? I'll wait. Also it is strange - I am sure if Washington had the option to chose which objectives he could achieve to win the war. He would have preferred to do it by "Raising the banners high" rather than fighting battles - because there is just no telling what can happen in a battle - that is too risky.

In any case I am not saying the rules of the game should change. Just saying that overall strength of a faction is not properly evaluated with these victory conditions. It certainly doesn't hurt to have the most powerful units. That doesn't automatically mean you are going to win.

I think the_scotsman's point was that George Washington won the Revolutionary War by continually retreating from battles.

The "strongest" army is the one that can most reliably produce its win condition, whether that condition is killing models or waiting until the French arrive on turn 4


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 18:12:01


Post by: the_scotsman


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Karol wrote:
Not in my part of the world. 1/3 of all played armies at events, including the bigger ones are DE armies, and ad mecha are not that much smaller.

It is actually funny, because for all the model support and supposed broken rules, marines struggle to get in to upper half of big events. WS still seem be above avarge good though, for space marines. Custodes too, but maybe it is the guys playing the armies. Few players, but they always go high up. Maybe not top 8, but they skim it.

I wonder when we are going to see the 1ksons/GK impact on the meta though. Is going to be interesting to watch for me.
Since the game can be won by not fighting at all and just using maneuvering and scoring gimmicks - any army can win. The way you really figure out what armys are strong is by throwing them into octagon - which isn't very important anymore because tabling your opponent doesn't win you the game.

GK and TS are both very strong as are orks.


I remember when george washington won the revolutionary war by throwing his troops into the octagon and just a'sluggin' it out.
Can you name a single historical reference were A faction won a battle by losing all their forces? I'll wait. Also it is strange - I am sure if Washington had the option to chose which objectives he could achieve to win the war. He would have preferred to do it by "Raising the banners high" rather than fighting battles - because there is just no telling what can happen in a battle - that is too risky.

In any case I am not saying the rules of the game should change. Just saying that overall strength of a faction is not properly evaluated with these victory conditions. It certainly doesn't hurt to have the most powerful units. That doesn't automatically mean you are going to win.


I mean...yes... Thermopylae springs to mind as a fairly well-known example of that.

And are you suggesting that generals don't...choose their objectives before going in and fighting a battle? That they don't go in with an objective to seize a particular critical terrain feature, rout or destroy a particular contingent of the enemy's forces, cut off a column of supply or hold an area to prevent the enemy from doing something like one of those aforementioned things?

40k is obviously hilariously unrealistic and cinematic when it comes to things like how many people are generally removed from the battle by weaponry vs because they simply ran away, but we kind of take it as a given that it's demonstrating more of an 'anachronistic movie conflict' than a real futuristic battle, but the closest conflict to the squad-based combined arms pitched battle present in 40k is probably world war 2, and world war 2 was absolutely defined by armies fighting for strategic positions and using the advantages afforded by superior technology rather than out and out destroying one another.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 18:50:52


Post by: IanMalcolmAbs


 the_scotsman wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:
Karol wrote:
Not in my part of the world. 1/3 of all played armies at events, including the bigger ones are DE armies, and ad mecha are not that much smaller.

It is actually funny, because for all the model support and supposed broken rules, marines struggle to get in to upper half of big events. WS still seem be above avarge good though, for space marines. Custodes too, but maybe it is the guys playing the armies. Few players, but they always go high up. Maybe not top 8, but they skim it.

I wonder when we are going to see the 1ksons/GK impact on the meta though. Is going to be interesting to watch for me.
Since the game can be won by not fighting at all and just using maneuvering and scoring gimmicks - any army can win. The way you really figure out what armys are strong is by throwing them into octagon - which isn't very important anymore because tabling your opponent doesn't win you the game.

GK and TS are both very strong as are orks.


I remember when george washington won the revolutionary war by throwing his troops into the octagon and just a'sluggin' it out.
Can you name a single historical reference were A faction won a battle by losing all their forces? I'll wait. Also it is strange - I am sure if Washington had the option to chose which objectives he could achieve to win the war. He would have preferred to do it by "Raising the banners high" rather than fighting battles - because there is just no telling what can happen in a battle - that is too risky.

In any case I am not saying the rules of the game should change. Just saying that overall strength of a faction is not properly evaluated with these victory conditions. It certainly doesn't hurt to have the most powerful units. That doesn't automatically mean you are going to win.


I mean...yes... Thermopylae springs to mind as a fairly well-known example of that.

And are you suggesting that generals don't...choose their objectives before going in and fighting a battle? That they don't go in with an objective to seize a particular critical terrain feature, rout or destroy a particular contingent of the enemy's forces, cut off a column of supply or hold an area to prevent the enemy from doing something like one of those aforementioned things?

40k is obviously hilariously unrealistic and cinematic when it comes to things like how many people are generally removed from the battle by weaponry vs because they simply ran away, but we kind of take it as a given that it's demonstrating more of an 'anachronistic movie conflict' than a real futuristic battle, but the closest conflict to the squad-based combined arms pitched battle present in 40k is probably world war 2, and world war 2 was absolutely defined by armies fighting for strategic positions and using the advantages afforded by superior technology rather than out and out destroying one another.

Generals can make a battle plan. It's not the same as arbitrary things like raising a flag or running a maneuver that does not damage the enemy. In war the ultimate objective is always to destroy the enemy.

By the way - Thermopylae accomplished nothing. The battle lasted 3 days and no significant damage was done to he Persian army. Persia conquered most of Northern Greece without much resistance. It was a full year until The greeks were able to amass enough forces to meet the persian on more equal terms. At which point - superior equipment (OP units) won the day. At no point in that war was greeces objective not to decisively win a battle against the Persians though.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/02 23:12:11


Post by: Daedalus81


 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:

Generals can make a battle plan. It's not the same as arbitrary things like raising a flag or running a maneuver that does not damage the enemy. In war the ultimate objective is always to destroy the enemy.

By the way - Thermopylae accomplished nothing. The battle lasted 3 days and no significant damage was done to he Persian army. Persia conquered most of Northern Greece without much resistance. It was a full year until The greeks were able to amass enough forces to meet the persian on more equal terms. At which point - superior equipment (OP units) won the day. At no point in that war was greeces objective not to decisively win a battle against the Persians though.



"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting"

The workings of real war is far more complex in terms of supplies, political capital, fog of war, weather, morale, etc than a tabletop game could ever hope to reasonably simulate. Degrading your opponent's ability to fight by sabotage, delay, and so on can be as effective as killing, so wiping the enemy out really isn't typically the goal. It's just what you do to make sure you achieve an objective.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 00:05:18


Post by: SemperMortis


 koooaei wrote:


Speedwaagh bigshootas on a skrapjet deal comparable amount of damage to rokkits vs -1 dmg targets with at least 5++. And there are lots of those.

If you try to shoot a dreadnaught with 5++, your rokkits will deal 2.22 damage while your bigshootas will deal 1.78.

Hard to call it "bigshootas are still useless". And if you calculate the damage output vs Mortarion, bigshootas actually deal more damage than rokkits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are "it-s" Of course. You need to be within Dakka range. Also, if you trigger freeboota +1 to hit, rokkits will start dealing almost twice the damage of bigshootas. But bigshootas are still good, especially for the price you pay.


A Scrapjets big shoota in dakka range, during a speedwaaagh are 20 shots at AP-1. not terrible, but only last the 1 full turn and partial buff the 2nd. Also, your warlord has to stay alive, something I denied twice in my last 3 games against fellow ork players (My alpha strike list is strong). But if you do all of that it maths out to 8.33 hits, 5.55 wounds and 2.77dmg to a Marine at T4 3+ save, so it averages 1 dead Marine and possibly a 2nd one wounded. A rokkit kannon and wing missile with zero buffs on average works out to 7 shots, 2.33 hits, 1.94 wounds and at -2AP that works out to 3.88dmg on average, meaning 1 definite dead Marine and if the 2nd missile goes through its 2. So yeah, with the buff purposely designed by GW to benefit the new (dumb) dakka gunz, a scrapjetz big shootas come close to matching the rokkitz. But the point I was making was that I believe that most buggies are slightly under priced. But I would gladly take a further 20pt reduction and lose the 4 big shootas on the dakkajet Or heck, just take away 2 and give me a 10pt price reduction while letting me keep my grot gunner big shootas which do most of the heavy lifting

 IanMalcolmAbs wrote:


Can you name a single historical reference were A faction won a battle by losing all their forces? I'll wait. Also it is strange - I am sure if Washington had the option to chose which objectives he could achieve to win the war. He would have preferred to do it by "Raising the banners high" rather than fighting battles - because there is just no telling what can happen in a battle - that is too risky.

In any case I am not saying the rules of the game should change. Just saying that overall strength of a faction is not properly evaluated with these victory conditions. It certainly doesn't hurt to have the most powerful units. That doesn't automatically mean you are going to win.


As previously mentioned, the battle of the hot gates or Thermopylae. it was a 7 day battle with 3 actual days of fighting and the end result was a tactical loss of 300 Spartans and a few thousand other greeks and upwards of as many as 20k dead Persians and a Strategic Victory. But the real result was that the land battle gave the Athenians enough time to evacuate the city and for the Greek navy to perform a withdrawal and eventually led to the full victory at the Battle of Salamis which destroyed the Persian armies chance of taking over Greece since it utterly crippled their fleet and completely destroyed the armies logistics train. After this the Persians fled back to Asia for fear of being trapped in Greece is the Greeks cut their lines of retreat.

Beyond that there is also several historic examples of near or complete loss of units/armies which ended in strategic victory. The Last stand of the Alamo was a rallying cry for the Texans who eventually beat the numerically superior Mexican Army at the battle of San Jacinto.

During the Battle of Chosin Reservoir the better part of an entire Chinese Division attacked a single Marine company deployed on what would become known as "fox hill" to guard the 1st Marine Divisions supply lines and eventual line of Retreat. Fox Company Marched up their Hill with 246 Marines and Navy Corpmen, 6 days later 80 were able to walk down again, and 60 were left able to fight. The unit suffered 75% attrition either from KIA or WIA, had they not held though, there is a possibility that the entire 1st Marine Division would have been wiped out and that could have ended the Korean War in a Communist Victory. (The Chinese Division was estimated to have lost over 1,000 Men attacking Fox hill and was later wiped out almost entirely)

I'm a War Historian so if you want more examples of Last Stands and hopeless defenses that turned into strategic Victories let me know



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 02:21:09


Post by: alextroy


And wasn’t the Soviet war strategy in early WW2 simply to bleed the Nazi army until the winter destroyed their extended supply line?

Wasn’t the defense of Stalingrad simply a matter of tossing too many bodies in front of the Germans to prevent them from taking the city?

Sometimes in war, all you want to do is delay the enemy at all cost.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 08:13:39


Post by: Blackie


 alextroy wrote:
And wasn’t the Soviet war strategy in early WW2 simply to bleed the Nazi army until the winter destroyed their extended supply line?

Wasn’t the defense of Stalingrad simply a matter of tossing too many bodies in front of the Germans to prevent them from taking the city?

Sometimes in war, all you want to do is delay the enemy at all cost.


Afghanistan 2001-2021. Talibans simply waited and won a war against a superpower. "You have the watches, we have the time" they said, and it turned out to be the truth.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 08:48:23


Post by: Tyel


I feel this is straying into modern politics but suffice to say the Soviet Strategy in 1941 certainly wasn't to delay the Germans until winter arrived - if it had been they almost certainly wouldn't have ended up losing 5 million soldiers and the war likely would have been over far sooner. That's just what ended up happening, especially in the last phase, precisely because those previous casualties meant no counter attacks were possible until forces arrived from the East.

To get back on point - generally in 40k "power" is a relevant point. Its rare I think for an army that's entirely toothless "but can hold objectives" is viable, because the damage output of "damage output" lists varies with dice. There is a sort of elegance to these infantry based Ork lists that surge into your opponent turn 1 and deny them from holding any objectives while you pocket your own. But equally I just feel you are going to end up going second, and your opponent will then roll a bit above average and murder half your list.

Which is sort of why the game at the top end turns into "can I hide behind LOS blocking stuff to ensure I don't die and then jump out to do my damage on my terms." It would therefore be interesting to see what a typical Speedwaaagh list would do to that infantry list. I feel it wouldn't be pretty.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 10:05:24


Post by: koooaei


SemperMortis wrote:
 koooaei wrote:


Speedwaagh bigshootas on a skrapjet deal comparable amount of damage to rokkits vs -1 dmg targets with at least 5++. And there are lots of those.

If you try to shoot a dreadnaught with 5++, your rokkits will deal 2.22 damage while your bigshootas will deal 1.78.

Hard to call it "bigshootas are still useless". And if you calculate the damage output vs Mortarion, bigshootas actually deal more damage than rokkits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are "it-s" Of course. You need to be within Dakka range. Also, if you trigger freeboota +1 to hit, rokkits will start dealing almost twice the damage of bigshootas. But bigshootas are still good, especially for the price you pay.


A Scrapjets big shoota in dakka range, during a speedwaaagh are 20 shots at AP-1. not terrible, but only last the 1 full turn and partial buff the 2nd. Also, your warlord has to stay alive, something I denied twice in my last 3 games against fellow ork players (My alpha strike list is strong). But if you do all of that it maths out to 8.33 hits, 5.55 wounds and 2.77dmg to a Marine at T4 3+ save, so it averages 1 dead Marine and possibly a 2nd one wounded. A rokkit kannon and wing missile with zero buffs on average works out to 7 shots, 2.33 hits, 1.94 wounds and at -2AP that works out to 3.88dmg on average, meaning 1 definite dead Marine and if the 2nd missile goes through its 2. So yeah, with the buff purposely designed by GW to benefit the new (dumb) dakka gunz, a scrapjetz big shootas come close to matching the rokkitz. But the point I was making was that I believe that most buggies are slightly under priced. But I would gladly take a further 20pt reduction and lose the 4 big shootas on the dakkajet Or heck, just take away 2 and give me a 10pt price reduction while letting me keep my grot gunner big shootas which do most of the heavy lifting




22 shots, actually. Also, calculating vs meq profile is not the best thing cause first - D3 is wasted there as you can't deal more than 2. There's often option of running into transhuman, -1 to hit or 4++ that lower the effectiveness of Rockies even further.
And regular Marines without insult, transhuman and -1 to hit are not that common outside of min scoring units that are likely out of Los and more of a target for squigbuggies anyway.

My statement is "do not underestimate bigshootas" - They tend to do a lot of work. Oh and they can also shoot in mellee in case you're not running blood axes. I also do agree that some of our buggiea are underpriced. Especially the squigbuggy. As for skrapjets - at 110 they get kind of squishy. 100 is probably the right price for what they do ATM.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 10:22:24


Post by: Karol


 Blackie wrote:


Afghanistan 2001-2021. Talibans simply waited and won a war against a superpower. "You have the watches, we have the time" they said, and it turned out to be the truth.

Watchs and a surface to air US missles, which cost a margine what a Soviet chopper or jet costs.

Can you name a single historical reference were A faction won a battle by losing all their forces?

279 BC Pyrus of Epir against the Romans at Asculum, the Punic War part II litterally ends with Hanibal fleeing on his own.
1709 Malplaquet the French vs the world. Biggest slaughter fest till Borodino. Lenino 1943, polish and soviet forces stage an attack on german positions at Lenino. Or at least the soviets tell the Poles they will attack. What follows is a 2 day battle, that ends with the german with drawl and the Poles who were made to attack across swamps and a river without artilery and air support losing 25% of troopers dead 33% of troopers injured , 11% of all troopers MIA and 6% were considered taken prisoner.




Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 11:13:32


Post by: ingtaer


Back on topic please.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 11:26:57


Post by: addnid


Catastrophic read this thread, even when it was just about on topic. Nearly no one actually discussed why they think boyz are still (slightly) relevant.

So I will try and give a few cents (at least I tried, unlike some here who just want to talk about stuff unrelated), you take max 6*10 boyz IMHO these days (whici costs more than 1/4 of an army, which is a LOT).
There are obsec and are toughness 5. As goffs, with a +1 to hit source (and against vehicules with tankbusta strat) they can do some harm.

But they are very match up dependant, some armies will just go through 6*10 boyz so fast that the Obsec use (scoring primaries, keeping banners up, so on and so forth) will be too thin for 1/4 of your points. They also unlock a bataillon, incidentally.

If you need none of the above desperately, refrain from taking more than 0,1 or 2 mobs. Mob isn't even a good term as they will be 10, none more none less, because of how powerfull blast is against over ten models, and because 90 points for tissue paper resistance level units is a lot.

I voted "no" but I could be totally wrong. "No" for now would have been more accurate.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 12:02:42


Post by: Tyel


As I see it the conclusions are.

1. Morale makes bringing multiple 30 man blobs too costly. Greentide in that form is dead as a competitive build.
2. (Debated) - the loss of Evil Sunz +1 to charge undermines Da Jumping one squad of say 30 into an enemies lines (there's also a higher chance of failing to cast - but with a reroll the odds of failing are still small). The counter is that Evil Sunz boyz never hit hard enough anyway, and the new Goth rules and +1 AP on Choppas means Boyz can at least scratch most things in a Waaagh turn. But Goths isn't all that desirable on everything else, and a 40%ish chance to work still means a 60% chance to fail which is too high to be consistently placing. There is a general sense that a weirdboy isn't worth it - although it could be argued Da Jump has scoring utility too.
3. If you are going to run MSU boyz, why not just bring 10 man Kommandos/Storm Boyz/Burna boyz instead. You lose Obsec, but gain movement or damage. You can get Obsec back with a Deathskulls Detachment. You miss out on Goth assault perks - but benefiting from those entails getting an M5" unit across the table.
4. Trukk Boyz may be competitive because reliably throwing Obsec units into your opponents lines turn 1 tends to be. However what seems to be emerging as "the Ork List" is Speedwaaagh vehicle spam, in which case Trukk Boyz are not obviously necessary. You'd rather bring 2 more buggies, 1 and a half dakkajets, 6-7 bikes etc. Grots can fill in - or you can just not bother with troops at all (who cares about CP when there are no wombo combo stratagems?)
5. Its maybe possible lists will look different if triple Kill Rig is as powerful as Reddit thinks it will be. Dakka however remains to be convinced.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 13:01:09


Post by: Jidmah


Solid summary, 100% agree.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 13:06:32


Post by: Karol


Boys would be okey, if they could be run in 5 man sized squads.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 13:06:41


Post by: Spoletta


Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 13:11:30


Post by: addnid


Tyel wrote:
As I see it the conclusions are.

5. Its maybe possible lists will look different if triple Kill Rig is as powerful as Reddit thinks it will be. Dakka however remains to be convinced.


I totally agree with all 4 previous points you made/resumed. Great write up.

But for this fith one you mean beastie boys, not regular boyz ? Because only those can enter the beastie kill rigs. No sleep till we get to the kill rig in brooklyn


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 13:14:12


Post by: Blackie


Spoletta wrote:
Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.


Definte "a lot". We have already seen competitive lists with 9-10 buggies.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 13:16:05


Post by: Jidmah


My experience is that you can usually fit 6-7 buggie sized models across the board.

Then you add 5-9 squigbuggies who don't give a zog about what terrain looks like.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 13:59:14


Post by: the_scotsman


Spoletta wrote:
Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.


Yeah, uh, evidently you can because orks are hanging out around a 60% wr spamming buggies and planes all over the place?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 14:09:45


Post by: Tyel


 addnid wrote:
I totally agree with all 4 previous points you made/resumed. Great write up.

But for this fith one you mean beastie boys, not regular boyz ? Because only those can enter the beastie kill rigs. No sleep till we get to the kill rig in brooklyn


True. I was more making a comment on how it might change the meta to make regular Waaagh in over Speedwaaagh, which might make Boyz more attractive than they are without it.

But yeah - its hard to see why you'd bother with regular Boyz when you get the transport capacity for Snaggas baked in.

Something like 2 Squigosaurs, 3 Kill Rigs, 2*10 Snaggas, 3*5 Kommandos, 3*5 Storm Boyz, 4 Squigbuggies, 3*3 Squighogs.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 14:35:52


Post by: Spoletta


 the_scotsman wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.


Yeah, uh, evidently you can because orks are hanging out around a 60% wr spamming buggies and planes all over the place?


.... err, where? This last week they had a nice 48% and they have had less top 4 than Space Wolves. They are really not behaving like a 60% win rate faction.
The speedwaagh list is a cute gatekeeper, but apart from the shock factor of the first games, it is not what you should fear out there.
Waagh lists are going to end up much more competitive in the long run, simply because they are based around infantry, and 9th edition is the infantry edition.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 14:46:41


Post by: addnid


Spoletta wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.


Yeah, uh, evidently you can because orks are hanging out around a 60% wr spamming buggies and planes all over the place?


.... err, where? This last week they had a nice 48% and they have had less top 4 than Space Wolves. They are really not behaving like a 60% win rate faction.
The speedwaagh list is a cute gatekeeper, but apart from the shock factor of the first games, it is not what you should fear out there.
Waagh lists are going to end up much more competitive in the long run, simply because they are based around infantry, and 9th edition is the infantry edition.


I think I agree with Spoletta that on the long run, ork infantry should be the build that sticks for top spots, and buggy lists the noob smasher. But I have been wrong before, a lot, so perhaps I will be again. 9th most def is an infantry based game. At least with WTC maps offering so much to infantry.
For now, my games show me buggy lists are better, but I have a feeling things will change. My buggy lists can really be wrecked by well played ob sec strategies. I just don't have any opponent doing so ATM lol (despite having a very comp group).


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 14:52:58


Post by: Daedalus81


Spoletta wrote:
.... err, where? This last week they had a nice 48% and they have had less top 4 than Space Wolves. They are really not behaving like a 60% win rate faction.
The speedwaagh list is a cute gatekeeper, but apart from the shock factor of the first games, it is not what you should fear out there.
Waagh lists are going to end up much more competitive in the long run, simply because they are based around infantry, and 9th edition is the infantry edition.


Not all tournaments were allowing the new Ork codex since it isn't universally available which hits their numbers a bit.

Orks are definitely a 55%+ capable faction.

Do I fear the all buggy list? No, but I don't lean on twin volkite contemptors, which buggies laugh at. There are so many lists that lean on Sub S8 D2 ( WS VV, anyone? ) that just won't cut it. Diversify your bonds.





Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 15:01:41


Post by: Jidmah


Tyel wrote:
 addnid wrote:
I totally agree with all 4 previous points you made/resumed. Great write up.

But for this fith one you mean beastie boys, not regular boyz ? Because only those can enter the beastie kill rigs. No sleep till we get to the kill rig in brooklyn


True. I was more making a comment on how it might change the meta to make regular Waaagh in over Speedwaaagh, which might make Boyz more attractive than they are without it.

But yeah - its hard to see why you'd bother with regular Boyz when you get the transport capacity for Snaggas baked in.

Something like 2 Squigosaurs, 3 Kill Rigs, 2*10 Snaggas, 3*5 Kommandos, 3*5 Storm Boyz, 4 Squigbuggies, 3*3 Squighogs.


Am I missing something? Why wouldn't you just run the killrig as part of a vehicle list?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 15:21:31


Post by: the_scotsman


 addnid wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.


Yeah, uh, evidently you can because orks are hanging out around a 60% wr spamming buggies and planes all over the place?


.... err, where? This last week they had a nice 48% and they have had less top 4 than Space Wolves. They are really not behaving like a 60% win rate faction.
The speedwaagh list is a cute gatekeeper, but apart from the shock factor of the first games, it is not what you should fear out there.
Waagh lists are going to end up much more competitive in the long run, simply because they are based around infantry, and 9th edition is the infantry edition.


I think I agree with Spoletta that on the long run, ork infantry should be the build that sticks for top spots, and buggy lists the noob smasher. But I have been wrong before, a lot, so perhaps I will be again. 9th most def is an infantry based game. At least with WTC maps offering so much to infantry.
For now, my games show me buggy lists are better, but I have a feeling things will change. My buggy lists can really be wrecked by well played ob sec strategies. I just don't have any opponent doing so ATM lol (despite having a very comp group).


I think you're gonna see squigspam lists leaning on the hog boyz and kill rigs and squigboss, buggy/flyer speedwaagh lists, and infantry lists showing up, but I think the infantry lists are going to be T1 tempo kommandos/stormboyz and a couple units of trukk boyz rather than green tides. kommandos and stormboys rock regular boyz socks, and with 3x10 of each plus your 2x patrols with trukk boyz you've already got like 1000pts on the board. Once you've got to your limit on those 3 'boyz but better' units I think you're basically like, set on how much S4 AP-1 T5 cheapo melee guys you need and you'll probably include some antitank/antielite point removal units like squigbuggies or tankbustas or wazboms that are mostly subfaction-agnostic (i.e. the options who already get native +1s to hit so they dont suffer for not being freebootas because youre going to want your infantry to be goffs or evil sunz maybe).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 addnid wrote:
I totally agree with all 4 previous points you made/resumed. Great write up.

But for this fith one you mean beastie boys, not regular boyz ? Because only those can enter the beastie kill rigs. No sleep till we get to the kill rig in brooklyn


True. I was more making a comment on how it might change the meta to make regular Waaagh in over Speedwaaagh, which might make Boyz more attractive than they are without it.

But yeah - its hard to see why you'd bother with regular Boyz when you get the transport capacity for Snaggas baked in.

Something like 2 Squigosaurs, 3 Kill Rigs, 2*10 Snaggas, 3*5 Kommandos, 3*5 Storm Boyz, 4 Squigbuggies, 3*3 Squighogs.


Am I missing something? Why wouldn't you just run the killrig as part of a vehicle list?


Mostly melee so it doesnt work with freebootas and would much rather be snakebites?


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 16:48:15


Post by: Tyel


As I see it the Kill Rig will want to be in a regular Waaagh, aiming for a first turn charge.

I mean I might be wrong, I've not played with one or against one - but it just seems logical based on the stats. You advance up, cast something, so now your wurrtower auto D3 lascannon hits and then you charge. With say Evil Sunz you'd be looking at 14+3D6 which should usually get you into something (given rerolls etc) barring a very negative deployment. Not even sure the Evil Sunz boost is necessary, and Goths is more choppy, but I think Rezmekka's is kind of nice to throw on a Squigosaur, so having one detachment like that isn't too bad.

I guess nothing really stops you just walking up and benefiting from Speedwaaagh, but they are not a good shooting unit.

Weirdly due to design decisions I don't think Snakebites helps at all. Because your T8 already and don't have the Squig Keyword (for... reasons?)

I'm sort of agnostic. On paper I think its a fairly ludicrous combo for 190 points. Equally however, I think you are just asking to be nuked with anti-tank fire from behind big LOS-blocking blocks of terrain. If you take 3 I think there's a meta issue that people just don't bring enough anti-tank. But if buggies become more common people may well start meaning more people do so.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 18:47:11


Post by: Jidmah


 the_scotsman wrote:
Mostly melee so it doesnt work with freebootas and would much rather be snakebites?


It's not a squig, so that wouldn't do much either. It's power comes from the combination of melee, a lot of mortal wounds from psychic powers and the auto-hitting main gun, each one taken separately is nothing to write home about - the melee is comparable to that of a bonebreaker, the shooting to that of a buggy.

And it's still worthwhile to bring with a freebootas. During shooting its lobba benefits from a trigger +1 hit, and in combat it can be the one to trigger the +1 for all the other buggies.

The biggest issue is that it has huge bullseye painted on it, you are most likely unable to hide it and if there is nothing to eat all the high damage weapons in the enemy army, you will just be providing targets for otherwise unused guns. In a list like the one Tyel suggest, aiming every dark lance, melta or rokkit at the killrigs is a no-brainer.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 19:46:14


Post by: Tyel


The issue is you need to shoot about 12 Dark Lances at a Kill Rig to kill it (on average). Inevitable rerolls lessen that but not dramatically so.

People don't generally turn up with that sort of firepower.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 19:57:54


Post by: Spoletta


Kill rig issue is that the charge phase is after the psy phase.
If it really wants to deliver the big MW nova, it needs to survive one turn in close proximity of the enemy. Even if you don't kill it, just bad touching is enough. Remember that in 9th you can't fall back and psy.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 19:59:09


Post by: Jidmah


8 wounds is enough to ruin that T1 charge though, both because you lose distance and your attacks become unreliable. That's two unsaved wounds from dark lances or similar weapons.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 20:12:10


Post by: Tyel


 Jidmah wrote:
8 wounds is enough to ruin that T1 charge though, both because you lose distance and your attacks become unreliable. That's two unsaved wounds from dark lances or similar weapons.


With 1 yes. But this is surely why you take 3 if you take any.

In the context that the average DE list has 4-6 dark lances.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 21:00:43


Post by: Daedalus81


Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
8 wounds is enough to ruin that T1 charge though, both because you lose distance and your attacks become unreliable. That's two unsaved wounds from dark lances or similar weapons.


With 1 yes. But this is surely why you take 3 if you take any.

In the context that the average DE list has 4-6 dark lances.


GK are doing pretty well and will shut their psychic down hard as well TS. It also opens up a painful secondary for TS against Orks, so I welcome Kill Rigs.



Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 22:13:30


Post by: Tyel


I'm not sure why, but I've tried and read the TS codex to work out what a "good" TS list should look like and feel its just... double dutch. And GK put me to sleep.

So I feel GK and TS probably do have powerful lists... but I just can't ever seem to get a handle on them in my head. So I'll have to wait untill I run into them on the table. Or they start placing in tournaments and it becomes obvious.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/03 22:42:44


Post by: Daedalus81


Tyel wrote:
I'm not sure why, but I've tried and read the TS codex to work out what a "good" TS list should look like and feel its just... double dutch. And GK put me to sleep.

So I feel GK and TS probably do have powerful lists... but I just can't ever seem to get a handle on them in my head. So I'll have to wait untill I run into them on the table. Or they start placing in tournaments and it becomes obvious.


This TS list went WWWLW and has the basics:

Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [98 PL, 8CP, 14 Cabal Points, 1,998pts] ++

+ Configuration [12CP] +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]

Cults of the Legion: Cult of Scheming

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems [-2CP] +

Sorcerous Arcana [-2CP]: 2x Additional Relics [-2CP]

+ HQ [22 PL, 8 Cabal Points, 400pts] +

Exalted Sorcerer [9 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 160pts]: 21. Presage, 22. Weaver of Fates, Dilettante [2 PL, 35pts], Egleighen's Orrery, Force stave, Frag & Krak grenades, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Smite, The Prism of Echoes
. Disc of Tzeentch [1 PL, 25pts]: Disc blades

Exalted Sorcerer [8 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 150pts]: 12. Twist of Fate, 13. Doombolt, 23. Temporal Surge, 4. Lord of Forbidden Lore, Force stave, Frag & Krak grenades, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Rehani [1 PL, 25pts], Smite, Umbralefic Crystal, Warlord
. Disc of Tzeentch [1 PL, 25pts]: Disc blades

Infernal Master [5 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 90pts]: 12. Glamour of Tzeentch, 3. Capering Imps, 5. Glimpse of Eternity, Cha'Qi'Thl's Theorem, Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol

+ Troops [22 PL, 4 Cabal Points, 468pts] +

Rubric Marines [12 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 273pts]: Icon of Flame [1 Cabal Points, 10pts]
. Aspiring Sorcerer [1 Cabal Points, 26pts]: 32. Pyric Flux, Force stave, Smite, Warpflame pistol [5pts]
. Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun [21pts]: Inferno boltgun
. 8x Rubric Marine w/ warpflamer [216pts]: 8x Warpflamer [48pts]

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 125pts]: Icon of Flame [1 Cabal Points, 10pts]
. Aspiring Sorcerer [1 Cabal Points, 21pts]: 12. Glamour of Tzeentch, Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Smite
. 3x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun [63pts]: 3x Inferno boltgun
. Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon [31pts]: Soulreaper cannon [10pts]

Tzaangors [4 PL, 70pts]
. Twistbray [7pts]: Tzaangor blades
. 9x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor blades [63pts]: 9x Tzaangor blades

+ Elites [47 PL, -2CP, 2 Cabal Points, 985pts] +

Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, -1CP, 175pts]: Hellforged cyclone missile launcher [25pts], 2x Twin volkite culverin [10pts]

Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, -1CP, 150pts]: 2x Twin volkite culverin [10pts]

Scarab Occult Terminators [21 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 445pts]: 2x Hellfyre missile rack [20pts]
. Scarab Occult Sorcerer [1 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 55pts]: 31. Empyric Guidance, Force stave, Inferno combi-bolter, Rites of Coalescence [1 PL, 15pts], Smite
. 7x Terminator [280pts]: 7x Inferno combi-bolter, 7x Prosperine khopesh
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [45pts]: Prosperine khopesh, Soulreaper cannon [5pts]
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [45pts]: Prosperine khopesh, Soulreaper cannon [5pts]

Scarab Occult Terminators [10 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 215pts]: Hellfyre missile rack [10pts]
. Scarab Occult Sorcerer [1 Cabal Points, 40pts]: 21. Temporal Manipulation, Force stave, Inferno combi-bolter, Smite
. 3x Terminator [120pts]: 3x Inferno combi-bolter, 3x Prosperine khopesh
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [45pts]: Prosperine khopesh, Soulreaper cannon [5pts]

+ Heavy Support [7 PL, 145pts] +

Mutalith Vortex Beast [7 PL, 145pts]: Betentacled maw, Mutalith claws

++ Total: [14 Cabal Points, 98 PL, 8CP, 1,998pts] ++


This one also did WWWLW beating Admech thrice and Vahl Sisters and lost to DE. He took a small detachment in a crappier cult and it looks like just for the move debuff spell:

Spoiler:

+++ Feel the power of the Darkside!!!! (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [105 PL, 6CP, 17 Cabal Points, 1,999pts] +++

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [87 PL, 9CP, 11 Cabal Points, 1,659pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Cults of the Legion: Cult of Time

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems +

Sorcerous Arcana [-2CP]: 2x Additional Relics

+ HQ +

Ahriman [10 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 180pts]: 11. Gaze of Hate, 11. Tzeentch's Firestorm, 13. Dark Blessing, Black Staff of Ahriman, Frag & Krak grenades, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Smite
. . Disc of Tzeentch: Disc blades

Infernal Master [5 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 90pts]: 1. Bladed Maelstrom, 21. Temporal Manipulation, 5. Glimpse of Eternity, Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Umbralefic Crystal

Thousand Sons Daemon Prince [10 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 185pts]: 13. Doombolt, 22. Swelled by the Warp, 3. Undying Form, Hellforged sword, Hourglass of Manat, Malefic talon, Smite, Warlord, Wings

+ Troops +

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 123pts]
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: 12. Glamour of Tzeentch, Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Smite
. . Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: Inferno boltgun
. . 3x Rubric Marine w/ warpflamer: 3x Warpflamer

Tzaangors [4 PL, 70pts]
. . Twistbray: Tzaangor blades
. . 9x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor blades: 9x Tzaangor blades

Tzaangors [4 PL, 70pts]
. . Twistbray: Tzaangor blades
. . 9x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor blades: 9x Tzaangor blades

Tzaangors [4 PL, 70pts]
. . Twistbray: Tzaangor blades
. . 9x Tzaangor w/ Tzaangor blades: 9x Tzaangor blades

+ Elites +

Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, -1CP, 175pts]: Hellforged cyclone missile launcher, 2x Twin volkite culverin

Helbrute [7 PL, 120pts]: Multi-melta, Power scourge

Helbrute [7 PL, 120pts]: Multi-melta, Power scourge

Scarab Occult Terminators [10 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 205pts]
. . Scarab Occult Sorcerer: 21. Presage, Force stave, Inferno combi-bolter, Smite
. . 3x Terminator: 3x Inferno combi-bolter, 3x Prosperine khopesh
. . Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Prosperine khopesh, Soulreaper cannon

Scarab Occult Terminators [10 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 205pts]
. . Scarab Occult Sorcerer: 21. Presage, Force stave, Inferno combi-bolter, Smite
. . 3x Terminator: 3x Inferno combi-bolter, 3x Prosperine khopesh
. . Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Prosperine khopesh, Soulreaper cannon

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 23pts]
. . Chaos Spawn: Hideous mutations

Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 23pts]
. . Chaos Spawn: Hideous mutations

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [18 PL, -3CP, 6 Cabal Points, 340pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Cults of the Legion: Cult of Mutation

Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]

+ HQ +

Exalted Sorcerer [8 PL, -1CP, 3 Cabal Points, 155pts]: 1. Arrogance of Aeons, 23. Baleful Devolution, 23. Temporal Surge, Egleighen's Orrery, Force stave, Frag & Krak grenades, High Acolytes, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Prosperine khopesh, Rehani, Smite
. . Disc of Tzeentch: Disc blades

+ Troops +

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 115pts]: Icon of Flame
. . Aspiring Sorcerer: 12. Glamour of Tzeentch, Force stave, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Smite
. . 4x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 4x Inferno boltgun

+ Elites +

Tzaangor Shaman [4 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 70pts]: 22. Weaver of Fates, Force stave, Smite
. . Disc of Tzeentch: Disc blades



And this guy went WWWLWW and has more of the commonly discussed elements ( though I think TV Contemptors need to go ):

Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [99 PL, 8CP, 16 Cabal Points, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Cults of the Legion: Cult of Duplicity

Detachment Command Cost

+ Stratagems +

Sorcerous Arcana [-1CP]: Additional Relics

+ HQ +

Ahriman [10 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 180pts]: 11. Tzeentch's Firestorm, 23. Baleful Devolution, 23. Temporal Surge, Disc of Tzeentch

Infernal Master [5 PL, -1CP, 2 Cabal Points, 90pts]: 1. Bladed Maelstrom, 21. Presage, 6. Malefic Maelstrom, Egleighen's Orrery, High Acolytes, Master Misinformator

Thousand Sons Daemon Prince [10 PL, 3 Cabal Points, 185pts]: 12. Twist of Fate, 22. Swelled by the Warp, 3. Undying Form, Conniving Plate, Hellforged sword, Warlord, Wings

+ Troops +

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 115pts]
. Aspiring Sorcerer: 12. Glamour of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolt Pistol
. 3x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 3x Inferno boltgun
. Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 125pts]: Icon of Flame
. Aspiring Sorcerer: 22. Weaver of Fates, Inferno Bolt Pistol
. 3x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 3x Inferno boltgun
. Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

Rubric Marines [6 PL, 2 Cabal Points, 130pts]: Icon of Flame
. Aspiring Sorcerer: 33. Desecration of Worlds, Plasma pistol
. 3x Rubric Marine w/ inferno boltgun: 3x Inferno boltgun
. Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon: Soulreaper cannon

+ Elites +

Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, -1CP, 150pts]: 2x Twin volkite culverin

Chaos Contemptor Dreadnought [8 PL, -1CP, 150pts]: 2x Twin volkite culverin

Scarab Occult Terminators [10 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 215pts]: Hellfyre missile rack
. Scarab Occult Sorcerer: 13. Doombolt, Inferno combi-bolter
. 3x Terminator: 3x Inferno combi-bolter, 3x Prosperine khopesh
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Soulreaper cannon

Scarab Occult Terminators [10 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 215pts]: Hellfyre missile rack
. Scarab Occult Sorcerer: 22. Weaver of Fates, Inferno combi-bolter
. 3x Terminator: 3x Inferno combi-bolter, 3x Prosperine khopesh
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Soulreaper cannon

Scarab Occult Terminators [10 PL, 1 Cabal Points, 215pts]: Hellfyre missile rack
. Scarab Occult Sorcerer: 11. Gaze of Hate, Inferno combi-bolter
. 3x Terminator: 3x Inferno combi-bolter, 3x Prosperine khopesh
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon: Soulreaper cannon

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [5 PL, 115pts]
. 5x Chaos Spawn: 5x Hideous mutations

Chaos Spawn [5 PL, 115pts]
. 5x Chaos Spawn: 5x Hideous mutations

++ Total: [99 PL, 8CP, 16 Cabal Points, 2,000pts] ++



Thousand Sons lists are hard to read, because it's less about units and more about spells and relics ( but still about units though they don't have a deep bench ). Grey Knights seem to be the opposite oddly enough.





Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/04 05:41:43


Post by: Spoletta


Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
8 wounds is enough to ruin that T1 charge though, both because you lose distance and your attacks become unreliable. That's two unsaved wounds from dark lances or similar weapons.


With 1 yes. But this is surely why you take 3 if you take any.

In the context that the average DE list has 4-6 dark lances.


Kill rigs have diminishing returns. Playing 3 of them doesn't really look like a good idea.
Frazzle is what makes or breaks them, and you can cast only one.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/04 11:19:19


Post by: Jidmah


Well, you could pick frazzle on all three and have two of them smite...

But I'm not convinced that it's broken enough to carry an otherwise mediocre army list that it has little synergy with and spam three of them. It seems more like an powerful asset to mix in with a list that already synergizes well with vehicles an high toughness values.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/04 14:04:41


Post by: Afrodactyl


Spoletta wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
8 wounds is enough to ruin that T1 charge though, both because you lose distance and your attacks become unreliable. That's two unsaved wounds from dark lances or similar weapons.


With 1 yes. But this is surely why you take 3 if you take any.

In the context that the average DE list has 4-6 dark lances.


Kill rigs have diminishing returns. Playing 3 of them doesn't really look like a good idea.
Frazzle is what makes or breaks them, and you can cast only one.


The multiple Frazzles are for when you start losing killrigs. One killrig gets shot to bits early, the second one gets through and does some damage, the third is overkill and is probably wasted points.

I agree with Jidmah though, the killrigs are best ran in a list that is already flush with high toughness, multi wound targets to ensure they don't get focussed down before they can do damage.


Back to boys though; I'll say a tentative yes.
Taken en masse to emulate green tide but in mobs of ten to mitigate morale, however at this point they conflict with kommandos and stormboys.

Or taken as trukk boys to compliment an already fast alpha strike list, however at this point they still compete with kommandos and stormboys, and also warbikers now.

I've found some success with the latter.

Boys have the potential to be competitive, however they step on the toes of units that do what boys want to do but better. If taking them as your mandatory troops choice in a patrol compliments the style of the list, then there's no harm in taking them. Likewise, if they compliment the list and you've not got the slots to take more kommandos/stormboys then take boys.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/04 15:22:19


Post by: SemperMortis


Spoletta wrote:
Buggies are very good, but using a lot of them on the new GW maps is... unfeasible.
If the boyz end up being not competitive is because you have better options in storm boyz and commandoes rather than the boy profile being bad for the points.


See I disagree on this one. Buggies are good, a lot of our units are good/ok but boyz in my opinion don't fall in that list. Even MSU spam they aren't reliable enough to do much. As someone else mentioned, you could bring 6x10 Boyz units for 60 boyz or 540pts, over 1/4th your entire list before upgrades, give all the nobz PKs and its closer to 1/3rd. They don't hold up well under enemy firepower, even with their T5, but the kicker is the morale issues they have which means even if you survive you will likely be doing dmg to yourself from morale, and neither strat is worth wasting CP on to save 2-3 boyz.

In CC they are better than before thanks exclusively to their -1AP choppas, but they lost the +1 attack, they lost their good CP strats and they lost weirdboy buff for the most part because it doesn't make sense to waste warpath on a 10 man boyz unit when you can just give Fists to your warboss.

Thanks to all of that I honestly don't see them being worth taking as anything beyond Trukk boyz or backfield objective holders. In every game I've played so far they have under performed and aren't anything like their former selves where they can just swamp a target in attacks or have so many bodies that you can't shift them off an objective.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/04 18:27:49


Post by: the_scotsman


Huh. Til the vehicle with the giant fething Squig on the front of it lacks the Squig keyword....

I can't help but feel like the advance edition of the codex was like. A rough draft. Just so much weird gak in there.


Will Boyz be competitive @ 2021/09/04 18:46:19


Post by: Jidmah


 the_scotsman wrote:
Huh. Til the vehicle with the giant fething Squig on the front of it lacks the Squig keyword....

I can't help but feel like the advance edition of the codex was like. A rough draft. Just so much weird gak in there.


Did you know you can use your one per detachment specialist mob to increase the AP of all blast weapons on the blitza bommer by 1?