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GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/23 17:26:13


Post by: Ketara


Taking from a few sources:-

One Patreon wrote: Copyright issues

Guys! At the moment, there is an active struggle against 3D printing on the part of our beloved company. So I decided to finally do the normal artwork for the next release. We are waiting for a restart for the next 2-3 days! Welcome pack and past models will still be available!


Another Patreon wrote:Hello,

Unfortunately I need to pause the Patreon. It appears GW is on a rampage and while I haven't received any communication from them I certainly have been hearing about it from many corners of our little hobby. So Im going to lay low at least for August and see what happens.

I hope you all will hold out til I know what direction the channel will take, but understand one way or another.

Thanks a ton for being here and willing to support my work. I'll definitely be back but it remains to be seen in what capacity.

Thanks,


A third v. popular 40K themed Patreon owner wrote:(i'd be lying if I said this new development didn't make me nervous


Looks like the sculptors are battening down the hatches.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/23 17:30:02


Post by: beast_gts


Aren't these just reactions to GW's 'updated' IP guidelines (being discussed here)?


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/23 17:40:12


Post by: Ketara


beast_gts wrote:
Aren't these just reactions to GW's 'updated' IP guidelines (being discussed here)?


Possibly not. Starting to sound like there's been another wave of C&D's (carrying on from the whole Duncan Shadow thing last month).

That being said, I swear that was a crackdown earlier in the year too, so this may be turning into a cyclical thing. Namely, GW sends out a wave of C&D's every few months. Only time will tell.



GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/23 18:54:36


Post by: jaredb


Who are these people, and what are they making?

Gonna say, when you make money off of someone elses's IP without permission, this is not a surprise.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/23 20:46:38


Post by: Overread


The ones that are panicking are those who are basically doing things that are copies (or very close copies) of GW stuff. Those who are doing alternates are sometimes getting a few "change this please" messages (eg One Page Rules recently adjusted a few of their Lizardmen/Seraphon sculpts) but otherwise carrying on as normal. Whilst those doing stuff that isn't a direct copy are going along as normal.


Heck I've seen one or two of the emails GW sends and they specifically note the models that are, in GW's view, breaching the copyright and GW openly gives the designer the option to either take them down or rework them for approval.

This is nothing more than GW protecting its IP. If anything GW are being very nice about it in general. I am waiting for Hollywood/Squaresoft/Videogames/Comics to come down on 3D printing. There's a lot of paid for "fan" designs and outright copies of stuff out there at present on patreons and the like. It's super cool, but also unlicensed and once those markets pay attention to 3D printing the hammer might fall on some designers very hard.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/24 01:23:17


Post by: Fluid_Fox


Not surprised at all, really.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/24 02:20:57


Post by: Big Mac


perhaps the beginning of its death thrashing. You either adapt or go extinct. This seem like the music industry vs streaming services; TV/cable vs internet streaming services; who remembers Blockbuster?


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/24 02:39:51


Post by: Argive


I member


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/24 03:14:23


Post by: ZergSmasher


Pepperidge Farm remembers


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/24 09:58:45


Post by: Ketara


It may not be a coincidence that Alexei Konev, who makes certain interesting busts and sculpts which could be deemed 40K themed, has just made a new site and said the following:-

I want to make an announcement that my beloved wifey @Ivy Koneva and I are working on opening a company Z KINO and now almost everything is ready and we are also launching our independent page in this regard. This will be an altarpiece to Patreon, MMF and other similar sites where you can find my works, but this site will be absolutely independent of the platform's policies and the pressure of moderators on the content that can be posted on them


I just want to have a website too. everything will remain as before. and patreon and other platforms. we just want, firstly, to have an absolutely independent platform on which it will be possible to release any releases that we deem necessary and no one can come from the top and remove our work and secondly expand our area of ​​influence.


Probably a smart move for the larger ones. It forces GW to either put up in court or shut up; rather than being able to throw a few C&D's around and get everything they want.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/24 10:00:23


Post by: Overread


Interestingly I think so far the only letter he's had has been from Creature Caster not GW - and even then it related to a banner and images instead of sculpted models.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/24 10:24:49


Post by: Ketara


 Overread wrote:
Interestingly I think so far the only letter he's had has been from Creature Caster not GW - and even then it related to a banner and images instead of sculpted models.


IIRC, I believe he had a diorama last year get hit by GW. The Mars one.

EDIT:- Word on the street is that Andrew Angel/Glukivnete just got C&D'd and had to take down all of his 'Not-Primarchs'.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/26 20:18:14


Post by: Ketara


Dark Gods Eternal KS just got nailed. Apparently it's felt that these pretty generic models are so inextricably 'Death Guard' that they infringe upon GW's intellectual property. Unlike Andrew Angel (which, tbh, I can see and would agree with, they're obvious infringements of GW's primarch designs), I can't say I see it here, at least not any more so than a thousand other 'Not-Marine' designs by two dozen other companies. 'Diseased/Mutated space dude in armour' isn't really a protectable concept.







[Thumb - 224859857_871977497074978_6738443207670739405_n.jpg]


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/26 20:27:54


Post by: Overread


I'm assuming that more has been said in the background between designer and GW since that message reads like a very standard blanket legal letter just to Kickstarter themselves.

In general most of the emails I've seen from GW where they've been sent to designers tend to be much more specific. "X and Y" model have problems and outlining those issues as well as offers to re-assess if the designer makes changes.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/26 20:41:15


Post by: Ketara


 Overread wrote:
I'm assuming that more has been said in the background between designer and GW since that message reads like a very standard blanket legal letter just to Kickstarter themselves.

In general most of the emails I've seen from GW where they've been sent to designers tend to be much more specific. "X and Y" model have problems and outlining those issues as well as offers to re-assess if the designer makes changes.


Eh. The Orks he had planned are no different to what Kromlech or any other company put out on a regular basis. Frankly put, if this guy infringes, then so does most of the third party industry, be it in 3d print, or resin cast. Which is what makes it interesting that they've gone for him. Very much lends credence to the idea that they're judging the two means of production/industries on a different set of scales. I guess we'll find out if Geargutz or Ghamak or someone else gets hit.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/26 20:45:38


Post by: Overread


Ghamak has a few that I think are rather too close and some that are totally different.

That said it might also depend on the country of origin and means of distribution. There are likely some 3rd party designers that GW would like to challenge who they can't simply because of the country and the fact that, say, they use their own website.

We also have to consider scale, the 3D print market is growing at an insane rate right now so GW likely has their intern's hands full just keeping up. Especially when GW is a very low hanging fruit for those looking to make a name for themselves early. But also such a huge giant that they've inspired so many who also just want to do their own take on the GW market that has driven and shaped their hobby and thus sculpting interests.


I'm not surprised that GW is going after them; this is GW's market and their whole industry and income.


I'm more surprised that the likes of RNE studios aren't getting shot at by Hollywood and Video game companies; or the legions of others doing similar works. I suspect when hollywood and such wake up to 3D printing and pay attention to it, we might find that GW are much more soft in how they deal with it than the machines of mega-companies that far outside GW and also have no need to appease or play good with the 3D print market in any way.



~Heck it would not surprise me if, in the future, GW licences out to 3D print firms. Letting them generate official alternate sculpts with marketing through GW and also basically a safe way to conduct their business. Sure GW would ensure that they aren't the same as their core models. Or heck GW might embrace that angle directly in-house.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/26 22:25:57


Post by: PondaNagura


Right, the reason that can even get cancelled is because they're operating the money efforts through a 3rd party like KS, or hosting files only through MMF/patreon/thingiverse who have their own PR/legal departments (or equivalent counseling) who are going to weigh the pros & cons of allowing artists to use their platforms to run gigs based on alleged IP infringement.
Whereas bits sellers or Kromlech and even geargutz have invested in their own webstores, where C&D notices don't have the same immediate pull.
In the last week, I've noticed some of the FauxrtyK patreons started hiding their preview image posts behind the pay veil blur.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/26 22:27:52


Post by: Overread


Hiding isn't really that effective unless you basically cut your customer base down to nothing and never advertise or market at all.

If you're marketing or even if you're just making stuff that's popular and your fans market for you (word of mouth; photos etc...); then you'll get spotted. Once you're spotted I'd assume GW would keep tabs and the cost of subscribing to a few dozen patreons for GW is likely less than the cost ot pay the lawyer to write the initial draft letter


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/27 00:38:40


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


 PondaNagura wrote:
Right, the reason that can even get cancelled is because they're operating the money efforts through a 3rd party like KS, or hosting files only through MMF/patreon/thingiverse who have their own PR/legal departments (or equivalent counseling) who are going to weigh the pros & cons of allowing artists to use their platforms to run gigs based on alleged IP infringement.
Whereas bits sellers or Kromlech and even geargutz have invested in their own webstores, where C&D notices don't have the same immediate pull.
In the last week, I've noticed some of the FauxrtyK patreons started hiding their preview image posts behind the pay veil blur.


GW can still send C&D's to whoever owns the server that hosts those websites. Even if someone has a website, it's rare they actually own the server and rather are just renting it.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/27 01:46:08


Post by: PondaNagura


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
GW can still send C&D's to whoever owns the server that hosts those websites. Even if someone has a website, it's rare they actually own the server and rather are just renting it.


True, and I considered that whilst typing, I could see more mainstream hosting platforms complying. Though those effected might just relocate to hosting from servers in countries where international IP have less pull, particularly in regards selling toy soldiers. Granted that may come with security protection concerns for potential customers.
We'll probably see a chapterhouse 2.0 type case before the end of the decade. But that's a discussion for elsewhere.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/27 14:54:25


Post by: Ketara


A Patreon Owner wrote:As many of you know, what we do here is considered a tad controversial by a certain company who we shall not name. They don't like our work as for some reason they seem to think that if we (proxy creators) didn't exist then you guys would have no CHOICE but to buy their insanely expensive products. And because they are big and rich, they can throw their weight around with impunity because no one can fight them. Also If you havent heard, they are even going after fan made animations! I cant tell if they ACTUALLY want us to play their game or not!! lol

In any case, they are running wild right now, attacking many creators, even a merchant member of this very channel, and since that's a little too close to home. I will pause for a while, try to keep a low profile on my models. My Cults is down and my Facebook is also paused.

During the pause, you can all remain Patrons of my channel, however you will NOT be charged on the first of the month as normal. Likely I will un-pause at some point next month and then we will try to pick up again in September as "normal".

Sorry for the inconvenience, folks. I will take this time to catch up on some backed-up freelance work and to make a plan for the ongoing future of the channel.

As always, thank you so much for sticking with me!


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/27 15:19:54


Post by: Overread


Honestly sounds rather hyperbolic eps when they talk about fan videos where the only ones GW has so far "gone after" are those monetizing the videos and even then they've offered many of them a "work for us" contract.

This is also nothing new, GW has been doing this for a long time, this "wave" is nothing new; though it might be the first time for some of the proxy creators getting their first copyright claim letter/situation.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/27 16:53:45


Post by: kodos


 Ketara wrote:
I can't say I see it here, at least not any more so than a thousand other 'Not-Marine' designs by two dozen other companies. 'Diseased/Mutated space dude in armour' isn't really a protectable concept.

those models have the Death Guard/Nurgle Icons on them, and this is protectable


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/27 18:23:48


Post by: Stephanius


 kodos wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
I can't say I see it here, at least not any more so than a thousand other 'Not-Marine' designs by two dozen other companies. 'Diseased/Mutated space dude in armour' isn't really a protectable concept.

those models have the Death Guard/Nurgle Icons on them, and this is protectable


I doubt that three dots in a triangle can be legally protected.
There are uses (signage, symbols, character accents) that predate GW's use by centuries.
In that it's just like an arrow, a chevron or greek capital letters.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/27 18:39:23


Post by: kodos


3 skulls in a circle can not

3 skulls in a circle on a mutated scifi soldier in armor can

it is not the symbol alone but in combination with the count as Space Marines


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/27 20:09:04


Post by: Ketara


 kodos wrote:
3 skulls in a circle can not

3 skulls in a circle on a mutated scifi soldier in armor can

it is not the symbol alone but in combination with the count as Space Marines


At best, it gives you an exceedingly weak case in a court of law for arguing that the other guy took inspiration from your work (it's three separate circles - hardly the Pepsi logo). It's a long, long, legal haul from pointing those out to being able to successfully argue that the -entire model- infringes upon a -specific expression of an idea- (aka, another Death Guard model with associated backstory) devised by Games Workshop. You'd need a damn sight more, and frankly, the Mark III style pad on one of them is far better evidence in that regard.

I'm not saying that that shoulder pad turns it into a strong case (it doesn't), but more that what people think is copyright protected, what GW claims is copyright protected, and what actually is are very different beasts.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/27 23:40:42


Post by: Ketara


Hi backers

Bad news today :(

But we are talking to GW in case we can fix the issues and we can continue the campaign. We hope that

The project is on hold right now until the dispute is resolved. Just give us a few days to talk to GW and we'll tell you about the future.

Thanks to all the people who have written to us and hoping that we get it.

And if this project is canceled, don't worry. We’ll make the changes to publish again.
We will always keep you informed!

Thanks for all and we are so sorry for that, we know all of you wew very excited to print this army.

Cheers!


So there you have it everyone. Generic skeletons, ghouls, and wraiths are now apparently owned by Games Workshop if they happen to be pictured with the same weapons/squad loadouts as GW gives them in AoS.

[Thumb - 123.JPG]


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 01:45:27


Post by: Fluid_Fox


Yikes.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 01:54:41


Post by: Rihgu


If I know which Kickstarter you're talking about, the wraiths weren't really that generic. Much more Nighthaunt (smokey robes with skulls and arms and stuff) than say, every other generic wraith I've ever seen which is nothing more than a smokey robe.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 05:45:28


Post by: lord_blackfang


I wonder if the ratfolk one I'm backing will make it through...


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 07:02:44


Post by: Hanskrampf


 lord_blackfang wrote:
I wonder if the ratfolk one I'm backing will make it through...

8 days seems like a long way off. If the Not-Nighthaunt were pulled, which were a lot more distant to actual Nighthaunt than the Ravenous Horde is to Skaven, I fully expect them to be gone by the end of the week :(
Wonder who is the first with enough money to stand up to their bullying.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 07:11:19


Post by: Overread


The strikes don't have to be the end - some of the ratmen are very similar and some are not. GW can't copyright the concept of ratmen in general, but might have issues with specific designs. Those could either be pulled or reworked.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 07:18:51


Post by: lord_blackfang


If bedsheet ghosts can be shut down, so can rat people. I'd be interested to know how much weight GW puts on weapon loadouts in these cases as that's often the most direct way models integrate into GW games, but it also seems absurd to claim it as infringement.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 07:27:33


Post by: kodos


usually it is the combination of several points, like icons, weapons, themes, that causes it

you just need to compare the Mantic Rats with those from the KS to see the difference, and the former are made in a way to avoid Skaven, while the others are modeled so people recognize them as Skaven to use them for Warhammer

there was never a question if GW would shut those down, but just how long it takes

 Ketara wrote:
 kodos wrote:
3 skulls in a circle can not
3 skulls in a circle on a mutated scifi soldier in armor can

it is not the symbol alone but in combination with the count as Space Marines


At best, it gives you an exceedingly weak case in a court of law for arguing that the other guy took inspiration from your work (it's three separate circles - hardly the Pepsi logo). It's a long, long, legal haul from pointing those out to being able to successfully argue that the -entire model- infringes upon a -specific expression of an idea- (aka, another Death Guard model with associated backstory) devised by Games Workshop. You'd need a damn sight more, and frankly, the Mark III style pad on one of them is far better evidence in that regard.

I'm not saying that that shoulder pad turns it into a strong case (it doesn't), but more that what people think is copyright protected, what GW claims is copyright protected, and what actually is are very different beasts.

it does not need to be a strong case, many weak ones that make up are enough
and the argument usually comes down to can someone recognize them as not being a rip off of the original model line or not, so the case won't be that clear in court

assuming you would have the money to fight them, it is hard to proof the your intention was to make unique SciFi mutant warriors in heavy armour and just by coincidence the symbols, armour and weapons look similar and you cannot copyright such symbols
GW is also in a better position as they were years ago, were brand recognition is part of the trial and today GW has came out of the niche and is wider known so this has more impact

overall, those KS are clearly modeled after a specific GW model line, hence KS stopped them and it is now on the creator of the 3D designs to proof that they are not


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 08:03:18


Post by: Ketara


 kodos wrote:

assuming you would have the money to fight them, it is hard to proof the your intention was to make unique SciFi mutant warriors in heavy armour and just by coincidence the symbols, armour and weapons look similar and you cannot copyright such symbols
GW is also in a better position as they were years ago, were brand recognition is part of the trial and today GW has came out of the niche and is wider known so this has more impact
overall, those KS are clearly modeled after a specific GW model line, hence KS stopped them and it is now on the creator of the 3D designs to proof that they are not

Again, that's not how copyright works. If I sculpt a model, I don't need to prove my 'intention'. I'm fully allowed to sculpt a model with the intent of having it used in somebody else's game, much like how I'm allowed to make a plastic case that fits an iPhone. I don't need to put on some saintly 'Oh my, I just happened to sculpt a model that conveniently fits a Games Workshop game, teehee, how silly of me'. If I market a new 'Frosted Flakes' cereal, I don't need to prove that I had never heard of or have no intent of copying Frosties. I have to make sure not to steal any proprietary recipes, but just adding sugar to cornflakes is a common as hell idea and so they can't stop me from doing it.

What matters here is the letter of the law. Does my product infringe upon the -specific expression of an idea- as created by Games Workshop? In this case, the sculpts involved? If so, I'm breaching copyright. If not, everything else is irrelevant.

What is interesting in the Wraith KS case is that they claim it has copied 'a significant part of Games Workshop's expression of Nighthaunt'. Which is clearly ludicrous. Wraiths, skeletons, scythes, shrouds, and so on are extremely common and uncopyrightable concepts. They might have put those elements together in a similar way to Games Workshop, but that doesn't mean it breaches copyright - any more than Mickey Mouse breaches Batman's copyright because both are humanoid, use the colour black, have ears, and so on.

This is a very obvious case of stomping on the competition. With the Dark Gods, you could at least make a pretence that certain design elements (like the shoulder pads) on a handful of models had been copied. Here, there's sweet fanny adams in that direction. The Wraith KS may walk like the GW duck, quack like the GW duck, and sound like the GW duck - but that doesn't mean that nobody else is allowed to own a duck because GW didn't invent ducks. Ducks were here first, owned by other people first, and will be here after GW is gone.

At least, theoretically, anyway. None of above means anything if GW can threaten to sue anyone else who owns a duck and they can't fight back.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 08:31:22


Post by: Overread


Yes but if you breed a very specific breed of duck you can own that breed of duck. .. Actually lets puts ducks aside and use plants. You can very much breed your own variety of a plant with a unique flower and look and you can have that licenced so that only you (and those you sublicense too) can propagate and sell that specific plant.

Which is where GW is, or at least appears to be trying to be. They aren't claiming all bedsheet ghosts are theirs; just some that are super similar


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 08:39:44


Post by: kodos


plants are tricky, the EU is currently fighting the US ruling that you can patent said special plants which is limiting the possibilities of farmers to keep growing their own stuff without a license and use removes the natural plants of the regions from the markets

so you can do a lot if you make a special version of something generic and if the company has enough money you can control the market and remove everything but your special version from it

 Ketara wrote:
Again, that's not how copyright works

but this is how DMCA strikes work

you host your stuff on a 3rd party platform, a random guy opens a copyright claim on the stuff you host on that platform and now you need to proof that this copyright claim is wrong to the platform to open your project again

Kickstarter is no different to Youtube or Github in that case, and if the claim is made by a company with the possibility to sue the hosting platform, no further questions are asked

this is also used to take bad review videos on YT down, the companies just open a copyright claim and the video is gone until after the release as no matter how stupid it is it takes time to settle it and bring it back online

I'm fully allowed to sculpt a model with the intent of having it used in somebody else's game, much like how I'm allowed to make a plastic case that fits an iPhone.

of course you can, just don't put an Apple on that case or name "iCase" and you are fine


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 08:45:50


Post by: Ketara


 Overread wrote:
Yes but if you breed a very specific breed of duck you can own that breed of duck. .. Actually lets puts ducks aside and use plants. You can very much breed your own variety of a plant with a unique flower and look and you can have that licenced so that only you (and those you sublicense too) can propagate and sell that specific plant.

Which is where GW is, or at least appears to be trying to be. They aren't claiming all bedsheet ghosts are theirs; just some that are super similar


The super-similarity in the case would only apply if it was a direct replica (aka recast level) of the original GW sculpt. Because that's what's protected. Not the concept of a half-skeleton in a shroud with a scythe. The sculpt itself is the copyrighted element, that's the -expression-. The bar for artistic originality in artwork is extremely low - to the point where you can literally take a copy of somebody's work, and tweak it sufficiently to generate a new copyright. Piecing together similar concepts does not equate to a copyright infringement.

Remember, ideas cannot be copyrighted.

Quite frankly, in making an 'undead' sculpt/army range, virtually all the Wraith KS elements could possibly even be held to fall under Scènes à faire. Even if not though, these are all original sculpts, using widely available public concepts. There is simply no way that they infringe. They are original sculpture and original copyrighted -expression of an idea- in their own right. The fact that Games Workshop bundles these selfsame generic concepts as a 'Nighthaunt' army grants them no additional legal protection. Otherwise they'd be suing over Dungeons and Dragons, Warcraft, Mantic, and a dozen other franchises. It's why they themselves didn't get sued for Necrons and Tyranids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kodos wrote:
plants are tricky, the EU is currently fighting the US ruling that you can patent said special plants which is limiting the possibilities of farmers to keep growing their own stuff without a license and use removes the natural plants of the regions from the markets


Just to clear this up (since it's been raised twice now), a patent is not a copyright. They both fall under IP law, but copyright is as different to patents as it is to trademarks. No genetically modified plant falls under copyright law, because copyright is there to protect fixed expressions of ideas. Patents protect inventions. Very different ball courts, and not relevant here.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 09:19:13


Post by: A Town Called Malus


Rihgu wrote:
If I know which Kickstarter you're talking about, the wraiths weren't really that generic. Much more Nighthaunt (smokey robes with skulls and arms and stuff) than say, every other generic wraith I've ever seen which is nothing more than a smokey robe.


So, Gravelord Nito from Dark Souls? Because that's the image that popped into my head from your description.

Almost like undead stuff featuring bones and skulls and smoky robes is so generic that it has been used literally everywhere.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 12:05:47


Post by: Ketara


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
If I know which Kickstarter you're talking about, the wraiths weren't really that generic. Much more Nighthaunt (smokey robes with skulls and arms and stuff) than say, every other generic wraith I've ever seen which is nothing more than a smokey robe.


So, Gravelord Nito from Dark Souls? Because that's the image that popped into my head from your description.

Almost like undead stuff featuring bones and skulls is so generic that it has been used literally everywhere.




Okay, that thing is terrifying. It makes me think of that bathroom stall scene in The Grudge.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 12:34:21


Post by: jaredb


I looked at that wraith kings Kickstarter, and they clearly look like they are supposed to be night haunt to me. Same with the deathguard on the previous page are clearly deathguard. I'm not surprised at all they are getting c&d letters, honestly I'm surprised it took this long. If you're going to be trying to make money basically copying gws ip and aesthetic you're looking for trouble imo.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 12:47:58


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 jaredb wrote:
I looked at that wraith kings Kickstarter, and they clearly look like they are supposed to be night haunt to me. Same with the deathguard on the previous page are clearly deathguard. I'm not surprised at all they are getting c&d letters, honestly I'm surprised it took this long. If you're going to be trying to make money basically copying gws ip and aesthetic you're looking for trouble imo.


GWs night haunt aesthetic is not unique in any way.

Paint them all ghostly green and you could say it's the Army of the Dead from The Lord of the Rings (the book, not the film depiction) pretty easily.

Spectres and ghosts have been portrayed in fiction in such a wide variety of ways for so many years that anyone can just point at those depictions and say they are interpreting them into a model form and GW can't legally do squat because their models are just an interpretation of the same material.

It's exactly the same as the Bretonnians. You're adapting folklore, the only protection you have is if you make it truly unique, but that doesn't stop anyone from creating a Arthurian knight model, only from using your unique additions to the concept. What is unique about Nighthaunt that has never been depicted in any media prior to GW making these models?


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 12:53:01


Post by: jaredb


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 jaredb wrote:
I looked at that wraith kings Kickstarter, and they clearly look like they are supposed to be night haunt to me. Same with the deathguard on the previous page are clearly deathguard. I'm not surprised at all they are getting c&d letters, honestly I'm surprised it took this long. If you're going to be trying to make money basically copying gws ip and aesthetic you're looking for trouble imo.


GWs night haunt aesthetic is not unique in any way.

Paint them all ghostly green and you could say it's the Army of the Dead from The Lord of the Rings (the book, not the film depiction) pretty easily.

Spectres and ghosts have been portrayed in fiction in such a wide variety of ways for so many years that anyone can just point at those depictions and say they are interpreting them into a model form and GW can't legally do squat because their models are just an interpretation of the same material.


Agreed, there are lots of different types of ghosts. Nighthaunt models are very distinctive however. It's pretty obvious when someone is copying that aesthetic. Especially when making duplicates of unit types in the Nighthaunt army.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 12:56:27


Post by: Rihgu


 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Spectres and ghosts have been portrayed in fiction in such a wide variety of ways for so many years that anyone can just point at those depictions and say they are interpreting them into a model form and GW can't legally do squat because their models are just an interpretation of the same material.

I dunno, considering the Kickstarter has been taken down (temporarily perhaps) it does appear that GW can legally do squat.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 13:07:08


Post by: A Town Called Malus


Rihgu wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Spectres and ghosts have been portrayed in fiction in such a wide variety of ways for so many years that anyone can just point at those depictions and say they are interpreting them into a model form and GW can't legally do squat because their models are just an interpretation of the same material.

I dunno, considering the Kickstarter has been taken down (temporarily perhaps) it does appear that GW can legally do squat.


What websites do often has little to do with whether the person making the claim has a legitimate claim. Just look at the many Youtube DMCA messes for evidence of that.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 13:29:30


Post by: Albertorius


 jaredb wrote:
Agreed, there are lots of different types of ghosts. Nighthaunt models are very distinctive however. It's pretty obvious when someone is copying that aesthetic. Especially when making duplicates of unit types in the Nighthaunt army.


Are they, though? I mean, I'm not exactly sure what is it that makes them all that distinctive, TBF. Even the name is a one letter change from a H.P. Lovecraft critter. The one with the gallows might be a bit more distinctive, but the rest... eh.

They mostly look like someone at GW central took a peek at a D&D Monster manual focused in incorporeal undead. Maybe the Ravenloft one.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 13:32:34


Post by: Ketara


 jaredb wrote:
I looked at that wraith kings Kickstarter, and they clearly look like they are supposed to be night haunt to me. Same with the deathguard on the previous page are clearly deathguard. I'm not surprised at all they are getting c&d letters, honestly I'm surprised it took this long. If you're going to be trying to make money basically copying gws ip and aesthetic you're looking for trouble imo.


The fact that you can look at a very common theme through multiple fantasy tropes and ascribe it solely to GW says more about how little you've seen elsewhere, to be honest. It's a bit like assuming GW invented aliens because you personally never read a sci-fi. Literally two seconds googling those attributes produces hundreds of independent artworks which infringe no more or less than this KS did. There are so many examples both as art or as physical wargaming models that it really beggars belief that GW is attempting to claim ownership of the entire genre. Here are some of (literally thousands) of examples.

Spoiler:











GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 13:38:04


Post by: Hanskrampf


Because I just received a newsletter that is somehow relevant to this discussion on how platforms operate:
Amazon just updated their infringement policy, because they are forced to act immediately by German law if they receive an infringement complaint.
They don't verify the claims but lock the listing immediately.
So just like Kickstarter or other platforms.

The important thing from the newsletter is: you can counter-sue for obstruction of competition if those claims are unwarrented. I'm guessing other EU countries at least have similar rulings. I hope GW runs into the wrong creator who can stick it to them.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 13:44:43


Post by: kodos


 Ketara wrote:
There are so many examples both as art or as physical wargaming models that it really beggars belief that GW is attempting to claim ownership of the entire genre. Here are some of (literally thousands) of examples.

none of those looks close to the Nighthaunt or the models in the KS

comapring them

Spoiler:
this is GW:


KS:


GW:


KS:


those are not like 1000 other examples, but a little bit too close to the orginal and calling them Markers instead of Spells, won't do much


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 13:46:54


Post by: Rihgu


 Ketara wrote:
 jaredb wrote:
I looked at that wraith kings Kickstarter, and they clearly look like they are supposed to be night haunt to me. Same with the deathguard on the previous page are clearly deathguard. I'm not surprised at all they are getting c&d letters, honestly I'm surprised it took this long. If you're going to be trying to make money basically copying gws ip and aesthetic you're looking for trouble imo.


The fact that you can look at a very common theme through multiple fantasy tropes and ascribe it solely to GW says more about how little you've seen elsewhere, to be honest. It's a bit like assuming GW invented aliens because you personally never read a sci-fi. Literally two seconds googling those attributes produces hundreds of independent artworks which infringe no more or less than this KS did. There are so many examples both as art or as physical wargaming models that it really beggars belief that GW is attempting to claim ownership of the entire genre. Here are some of (literally thousands) of examples.

Spoiler:











Luckily, except for maybe the last 3, I don't look at those and see "nighthaunt". I see fairly generic wraiths/spectres/undead.
When I see nighthaunt, I think "nighthaunt". So there's got to be *something* about the designs that makes them noticeably unique.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 13:52:35


Post by: Albertorius


 kodos wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
There are so many examples both as art or as physical wargaming models that it really beggars belief that GW is attempting to claim ownership of the entire genre. Here are some of (literally thousands) of examples.

none of those looks close to the Nighthaunt or the models in the KS

comapring them

Spoiler:
this is GW:


KS:


GW:


KS:


those are not like 1000 other examples, but a little bit too close to the orginal and calling them Markers instead of Spells, won't do much


It is interesting, because you see GW, stuff, while I see D&D incorporeal undead and living spells.

I guess it's true that people imprint to the first iteration they see of something.

Incidentally, whenever I see the term "nighthaunt" my mind reads "nightgaunt"


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 13:53:07


Post by: kirotheavenger


The Nighthaunt definitely draw from the same themes as many other undead.
But it's definitely true that they have a unique combination of those.

Does that mean GW has an ironclad case of IP infringement? Definitely not.
But it also doesn't mean they have absolutely nothing.

I certainly wouldn't want to gamble on a court battle if that court battle would take a lot of time and money.
So pulling the kickstarter or calling their bluff would be a hard call to make if I was in charge.
If I was Kickstarter themselves? Who really doesn't care about one tiny kickstarter? It's definitely not worth risking a fight with GW.

Is it fair? Not really. Is our legal system perfect in this regard? Absolutely not.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 13:53:42


Post by: Hanskrampf


 kodos wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
There are so many examples both as art or as physical wargaming models that it really beggars belief that GW is attempting to claim ownership of the entire genre. Here are some of (literally thousands) of examples.

none of those looks close to the Nighthaunt or the models in the KS

comapring them

Spoiler:
this is GW:


KS:


GW:


KS:


those are not like 1000 other examples, but a little bit too close to the orginal and calling them Markers instead of Spells, won't do much

The inspiration is clear. However, they are not copies.
The scythe has hands attached, no chains. The swirly heads are just 3 heads, no chest. The hourglass is, well a floating hourglass - this one is pretty close, but GW can hardly claim this is an original idea.
Just because you see that they are similar, doesn't mean those are too similar. Because they are not. No idea is original and if you copy 80-90% like the wraith KS did and add 10-20% of your own ideas, that's enough.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 14:00:28


Post by: Albertorius


 Hanskrampf wrote:
Just because you see that they are similar, doesn't mean those are too similar. Because they are not. No idea is original and if you copy 80-90% like the wraith KS did and add 10-20% of your own ideas, that's enough.


I mean...

Spoiler:




Spoiler:






As said above, "The inspiration is clear. However, they are not copies".


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 14:02:38


Post by: Ketara


 kodos wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
There are so many examples both as art or as physical wargaming models that it really beggars belief that GW is attempting to claim ownership of the entire genre. Here are some of (literally thousands) of examples.

none of those looks close to the Nighthaunt or the models in the KS

comapring them

Spoiler:
this is GW:


KS:


GW:


KS:


those are not like 1000 other examples, but a little bit too close to the orginal and calling them Markers instead of Spells, won't do much


...And that was the point where it crossed over from honest discussion to intellectual dishonesty.

You're totally correct. When I linked all the wraiths/skeletons/reapers -of which there are multiple versions in both the KS and Nighthaunt - I very much was NOT trying to draw a comparison between them and the amazingly copyrightable and totally innovative/original design of a giant scythe. In the same way I also wasn't trying to compare to the heading font, my pet cat, and thirty five million other things. Here, have some actual examples of the patently obvious things I was comparing my previous examples against from both GW and the KS. Since we apparently need to be that specific.

Spoiler:





Skeletons, wraiths, and blades/scythes are not original IP or copyrightable beyond their exact expression, no matter how you configure them. Nor is a handful of ghostly skills coming out a treasure chest, or a really big hourglass.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The Nighthaunt definitely draw from the same themes as many other undead.
But it's definitely true that they have a unique combination of those.

Does that mean GW has an ironclad case of IP infringement? Definitely not.
But it also doesn't mean they have absolutely nothing.


I think I'm going to have to duck out of the legal discussion at this point. Every time I explain to someone that IP infringement focuses upon infringement of a fixed expression of an idea, rather than an idea itself; another person drops by to say 'But they look similar and one makes me think of the other, so that must mean that it's a viable legal case!'


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Albertorius wrote:

It is interesting, because you see GW, stuff, while I see D&D incorporeal undead and living spells.

I guess it's true that people imprint to the first iteration they see of something.


True this. Something to do with growing older and having more experiences. When I see a plot point in a show or artistic design now, my brain goes 'Oh, that's just like X & Y'; whereas when I was 15, it was something new and original and interesting. It's surprisingly hard to be really original - most creators don't manage it more than a few times in their lives.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 14:14:19


Post by: Hanskrampf


 Ketara wrote:

I think I'm going to have to duck out of the legal discussion at this point. Every time I explain to someone that IP infringement focuses upon infringement of a fixed expression of an idea, rather than an idea itself; another person drops by to say 'But they look similar and one makes me think of the other, so that must mean that it's a viable legal case!'


Don't forget the second part of the argument: "if KS pulled it, there must be something to it" (and not just a platform playing it safe and which may be exactly what they are legally obliged to do, as stated above).


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 14:19:03


Post by: Rihgu


 Hanskrampf wrote:
 Ketara wrote:

I think I'm going to have to duck out of the legal discussion at this point. Every time I explain to someone that IP infringement focuses upon infringement of a fixed expression of an idea, rather than an idea itself; another person drops by to say 'But they look similar and one makes me think of the other, so that must mean that it's a viable legal case!'


Don't forget the second part of the argument: "if KS pulled it, there must be something to it" (and not just a platform playing it safe and which may be exactly what they are legally obliged to do, as stated above).


I mean, I know that Patreon at least has a legal team that reviews these things and I know that they will throw out/defend creators cases where they think it's BS. Maybe Kickstarter doesn't do the same thing, I don't know. I've never seen a case either way.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 14:23:09


Post by: kodos


 Ketara wrote:
...And that was the point where it crossed over from honest discussion to intellectual dishonesty.

well than

it as a very simple case, GW just need to show Kickstarter those 2 pictures for them shut the project down
it does not matter if this is enough before the law and will hold in court, it does not matter if this is how copyright works or not

it just need to be enough for the hosting company to play it save and keep away from it, and everything else not the done by the lawyers of both parties

if the people validating the claim (and there are unless KS already uses an AI for that) see enough similarities the case is clear and not of their business any more


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 14:27:15


Post by: Ketara


 kodos wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
...And that was the point where it crossed over from honest discussion to intellectual dishonesty.

well than

it as a very simple case, GW just need to show Kickstarter those 2 pictures for them shut the project down
it does not matter if this is enough before the law and will hold in court, it does not matter if this is how copyright works or not

it just need to be enough for the hosting company to play it save and keep away from it, and everything else not the done by the lawyers of both parties

if the people validating the claim (and there are unless KS already uses an AI for that) see enough similarities the case is clear and not of their business any more


Never a truer word was spoken. That's been the running theme here:- GW is busy firing out C&D's regardless of legal merit, in a fashion which we haven't seen since pre-Chapterhouse and the third party bitz companies. Hence why people are suddenly battening down/switching to other sites.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 14:29:44


Post by: Hanskrampf


 kodos wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
...And that was the point where it crossed over from honest discussion to intellectual dishonesty.

well than

it as a very simple case, GW just need to show Kickstarter those 2 pictures for them shut the project down
it does not matter if this is enough before the law and will hold in court, it does not matter if this is how copyright works or not

it just need to be enough for the hosting company to play it save and keep away from it, and everything else not the done by the lawyers of both parties

if the people validating the claim (and there are unless KS already uses an AI for that) see enough similarities the case is clear and not of their business any more


We have seen the C&D letter to KS.
As stated above, KS may be legally required to take action immediately, even before verifying claims.
A campaign being pulled is not "case clear".

We have seen campaigns go back live after KS investigation like the Signum one where Sans-Detour tried to throw them under the bus for similarities to the Rackham Confrontation line.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 14:31:44


Post by: Albertorius


 Hanskrampf wrote:
 Ketara wrote:

I think I'm going to have to duck out of the legal discussion at this point. Every time I explain to someone that IP infringement focuses upon infringement of a fixed expression of an idea, rather than an idea itself; another person drops by to say 'But they look similar and one makes me think of the other, so that must mean that it's a viable legal case!'


Don't forget the second part of the argument: "if KS pulled it, there must be something to it" (and not just a platform playing it safe and which may be exactly what they are legally obliged to do, as stated above).


KS pulls whatever it's told to pull, as soon as there's a claim. There's not an actual need to prove a thing, all the onus falls on the project owner. IF the PO decides to fight the claim, they will investigate, but not before.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 14:34:52


Post by: kodos


 Ketara wrote:
 kodos wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
...And that was the point where it crossed over from honest discussion to intellectual dishonesty.

well than

it as a very simple case, GW just need to show Kickstarter those 2 pictures for them shut the project down
it does not matter if this is enough before the law and will hold in court, it does not matter if this is how copyright works or not

it just need to be enough for the hosting company to play it save and keep away from it, and everything else not the done by the lawyers of both parties

if the people validating the claim (and there are unless KS already uses an AI for that) see enough similarities the case is clear and not of their business any more


Never a truer word was spoken. That's been the running theme here:- GW is busy firing out C&D's regardless of legal merit, in a fashion which we haven't seen since pre-Chapterhouse and the third party bitz companies. Hence why people are suddenly battening down/switching to other sites.

they never stopped, we just don't hear of them very often unless it goes public because the people go to court or people here a customers

there was a wave of letters to 3D files supplier last year, or the year before
writers, bits supplier, artists, got them in the past as well


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 15:20:47


Post by: lord_blackfang


Personally I'm aghast at how many times Scooby Doo infringed on Nighthaunts over the decades!


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 19:56:26


Post by: PondaNagura


It probably didn't help that they used 'nighthaunt compatible' in their advert tagline.
Also didn't help that the spell marker/tokens included only a scythe, hourglass and floating collection heads. It could be argued out of context those are generic themes, and the sculpts are very different, but if you want to sell generic ghosts warriors why only settle on those three things? why not include MORE options to explore the genre/magicking? Again, here using ''nighthaunt compatible' doesn't help convince arguments against intent of the products.
There are some other similarities and body-style choices that clearly show what units they're supposed to stand in as, buuut the execution out of context would be harder for GW to prove IP infringement. They could file a counter claim, right?
(I'm still curious to see that queen character printed. It was cool sculpt and just from a technical counter-balanced standpoint I want to see if it would stand on its own, or need strong magnets built in to support it/transport it).

However, the not-Death Guard...that's rather blatant what those were supposed to be. A shoulder pad swap on the DP and the top 2 warriors with a helmet swap and different symbol they might be okay. The terminator not so much.
Artist wants to sell twisted scifi armored soldiers, why not go for other themes of "plague" or forms corruption?
Plague mask is obvious and generic enough. There's a 3d hobbyist in the printing subreddits who's exploring nautical/coral themed DG counts-as, since GW doesn't have nautical themed astartes stuff, that person is more safe.
I have some older mosquito themed plague raptors that were designed well before the modern DG were released, but GW has since adopted some of the visual themes in other units, so I'd have to tweak them further if I ever want to sell them. Particularly with these types of crackdowns.
But then I also have this guy. Change the banner symbol, scifi it up/give em a gun and you can still tell what faction it's likely to fit into, but it doesn't match anything else GW officially has put out.

Going forward I think 3D sculptors would be safer to
- advertise projects as not obviously connected to the game system they're making proxies for
- market towards model-agnostic or multiple systems, (for use in your fantasy adventures games, D&D, etc)
- explore more diverse themes and styles GW won't/can't touch because we're not medium-limited(injection molds) like GW is.
- add options that aren't covered in GW's rules, or for out of print game systems, or might in a hypothetical system that may or may not be in the pipeline.

It's a gamble, but then so is the current trend of I-can't-believe-it's-not (faction) campaigns.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 20:04:48


Post by: Ketara


 PondaNagura wrote:
It probably didn't help that they used 'nighthaunt compatible' in their advert tagline.
Also didn't help that the spell marker/tokens included only a scythe, hourglass and floating collection heads. It could be argued out of context those are generic themes, and the sculpts are very different, but if you want to sell generic ghosts warriors why only settle on those three things? why not include MORE options to explore the genre/magicking? Again, here using ''nighthaunt compatible' doesn't help convince arguments against intent of the products.


I'm just going to requote my own post.

Ketara wrote:Again, that's not how copyright works. If I sculpt a model, I don't need to prove my 'intention'. I'm fully allowed to sculpt a model with the intent of having it used in somebody else's game, much like how I'm allowed to make a plastic case that fits an iPhone. I don't need to put on some saintly 'Oh my, I just happened to sculpt a model that conveniently fits a Games Workshop game, teehee, how silly of me'. If I market a new 'Frosted Flakes' cereal, I don't need to prove that I had never heard of or have no intent of copying Frosties...adding sugar to cornflakes is a common as hell idea and so they can't stop me from doing it.

What matters here is the letter of the law. Does my product infringe upon the -specific expression of an idea- as created by Games Workshop? In this case, the sculpts involved? If so, I'm breaching copyright. If not, everything else is irrelevant.


Saying 'Nighthaunt compatible' was ruled fully legal in Chapterhouse, and even if it hadn't been, has been ruled legal in cases in the automotive industry.

Going forward I think 3D sculptors would be safer to
- advertise projects as not obviously connected to the game system they're making proxies for
- market towards model-agnostic systems first
- explore more diverse themes and styles GW won't/can't touch because we're not medium-limited(injection molds) like GW is.
- add options that aren't covered in GW's rules, or for out of print game systems, or might in a hypothetical system that may or may not be in the pipeline.

It's a gamble, but then so is the current trend of I-can't-believe-it's-not (faction) campaigns.


It would be better if GW backed off instead of resuming their early 2010's legal brinkmanship and deceit, but that sadly doesn't seem to be their direction of movement. It's stupid really, because at some point, they're going to run into some stubborn fecker who makes them bleed for it in court. It might be this year, it might be in three; but the longer they play this game, the greater the odds of it happening. You only need one person with an IP lawyer as a cousin, and suddenly GW are haemorraging millions in legal costs in order to get slapped on the wrist again.

I'd be interested to know if someone new has taken over their legal department. I know Gail left and Merritt revealed himself to be an absolute moron on the stand (he quite literally didn't know what copyright was despite heading up the legal department). But I don't know who/how many people have been through it since.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 20:11:00


Post by: Overread


Or perhaps the 3D print market stops trying to be the "cheap 40K" and goes somewhere else. Plus as hard as GW hit (which isn't actually that hard), the 3D print market is likely going to get a massive shake up when Hollywood and Video games come a knocking. Because those two markets are huge, with big players who have far more scary (and well paid) legal teams and have no need to appease the market.


Gw is going after creators yes, but they are also giving them clear messages on what infringes and letting them work through and adapt to move past that. Ergo if its a symbol or a specific sculpt that can be remade or removed and the creator cna keep going.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 20:14:42


Post by: PondaNagura


Oh, I think the Wraith King has a chance to relaunch, not so much the DG campaign.
And like I said much earlier, it's a matter of time before a chapterhouse 2.0 situation.
Heck, I have suspicions about the "inspiration" of designs for certain Primaris units and AOS stuff in relation to fan/alternative model project discussions on other boards from over a decade ago...

Given the other recent revelation on how little GW pays their other internal people, maybe the legal department interns are paid on quarterly quota system? (joking)


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 21:03:40


Post by: lord_blackfang


 PondaNagura wrote:
Given the other recent revelation on how little GW pays their other internal people, maybe the legal department interns are paid on quarterly quota system? (joking)


Plus they might hire their lawyers based on attitude, not skill


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 21:25:04


Post by: PondaNagura


The Wraith King campaign is back up, they removed a few entries but most of the stuff is still available.

And the DG one may come back in some form according to an update from the printing subreddit
Update 28/07/21

"Great news everyone!
I am in open discussion with Games Workshop and they have acted very gracefully for which I am extremely grateful. By the sounds of it - The projcect will go ahead as planned! We are just going back and forth to Kickstarter now to make sure it all goes to plan.
We may be losing Toxin and the Infected soldiers, and this saddens me immensely - but rest assured I will make awesome, new, original ideas that can continue to make this set a great addition to your printer at a great price.
Thank you all so much, and I will be in touch again very soon. This has been a whirlwind for me, but the professional and pleasant conversation I had with GW has really lifted my spirit when things could have been much more dire."


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 21:49:01


Post by: Psychopomp


The specific entries that the Wraith King KS had to drop were the banshees with blindfolds and scythe hands and the wraiths with horse/rat/dog skulls.

Which, not coincidentally, were the two entries I was least interested in because they look the most like Age of Sigmar specific crap rather than more universal ghosts and wraiths, which is what I'm backing the Kickstarter to get! Which is to say, I want these models because of how different they are to Nighthaunt, not because of how similar.

(I really hope we get a unit of just plain ol' screaming banshees with people hands as a replacement. I'd love some good banshee miniatures! I have no need for Blyndwail Bezzlebops, or whatever GW's crap is called.)


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 22:21:04


Post by: Ketara


 lord_blackfang wrote:
 PondaNagura wrote:
Given the other recent revelation on how little GW pays their other internal people, maybe the legal department interns are paid on quarterly quota system? (joking)


Plus they might hire their lawyers based on attitude, not skill


The funny thing is that this was actually the case before - Merritt got to head up the department not because he was a lawyer I believe, but because he was one of Kirby's Yes Men - it's why he got absolutely torn apart on the stand. He knew nothing about law, he ran part of the game studio beforehand IIRC. The legal department was supposed to be a nice comfy little sinecure. Then when Games Workshop actually hit their first taste of adversarial litigation, and someone grew a backbone to their attempted bullying of all the third party studios (Kromlech, Maxmini, Scibor, etc); it turned out that they owned very little of what they said they did and had no idea what they were doing.

Right now, I believe GW's legal IP department has a bloke called Jake Campbell, who joined in the last few years, who is an actual IP lawyer. I think his manager is (after some web sleuthing) a lady called Laura Carpenter-Jewels, who is a relatively fresh solicitor (accredited in 2015). The one who formally heads up the department at the Board is Rachel Tongue though, one of Kirby's old buddies and a massive shareholder in GW (she's a chartered accountant who joined the firm in 1995).

Given the nominal head of the department isn't a lawyer but one of the old brigade, and all the in-house legal counsel joined GW post-Chapterhouse and were only accredited as solicitors within the last decade - it wouldn't surprise me if they were just reverting to type as you both suggest.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/28 22:56:35


Post by: Overread


This was posted in one of the 3D print discords from the guy who runs the Wraith Kings Army Kickstarter that is now back online with only 3 models being removed (which they've said on KS they'll work on replacing with new sculpts)

Spoiler:



GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/29 06:39:53


Post by: Hanskrampf


 Psychopomp wrote:
The specific entries that the Wraith King KS had to drop were the banshees with blindfolds and scythe hands and the wraiths with horse/rat/dog skulls.

Which, not coincidentally, were the two entries I was least interested in because they look the most like Age of Sigmar specific crap rather than more universal ghosts and wraiths, which is what I'm backing the Kickstarter to get! Which is to say, I want these models because of how different they are to Nighthaunt, not because of how similar.

(I really hope we get a unit of just plain ol' screaming banshees with people hands as a replacement. I'd love some good banshee miniatures! I have no need for Blyndwail Bezzlebops, or whatever GW's crap is called.)

That sounds pretty sensible. Glad that's resolved.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/29 09:35:38


Post by: Ketara


Alexei Konev wrote:Hello guys,

I want to share with you my disturbing thoughts and perhaps find like-minded people who are worried about the same. In general, I have been under pressure from large companies since I entered the miniature business. In a similar situation, a huge number of independent artists like me. And each of them has a ton of stories about clashes with giant predatory corporations. But in recent days, very alarming things have been happening and the entire community is whispering in public about this, sending the latest news from the war zones to each other in private messages.

Most independent studios and artists want to be creative and make money from it to feed their families and pay the bills. This is an honest job on which people spend a lot of physical and creative energy and time. Of course, each of the artists wants to be in demand and offer people the product they need, thus finding their place in society.

After launching my project, for the second day in a row, waking up and opening Facebook, I see news that GamesWorkshop is putting down another project on Kickstarter. I'm talking about Dark Gods Eternal and Wraith King’s Army right now. Of course because of this reason I very sensitive to this kind of news. I am very sorry for the both guys, I can imagine their feelings, especially since I personally know Jaydon Hill that artist behind Dark Gods. I have seen both projects, before it been taken down each of them has gone into a huge amount of work. This is not something stolen. It was an alternative product on the market, which was supposed to provide a range of choices for the consumer, as well as competition in the market through which the market and art could develop, which in this game would ultimately benefit everyone. Someone will say that this product was somewhat similar to what GamesWorkshop does, but I can say that it was no longer similar. And so we can discuss this topic with you indefinitely. Someone may like the art from this company, and some more like the work of these artists. And the people themselves should choose what to spend their money or attention on, not Gamesworkshop. These are the basic principles of the free market.

But anyway intellectual property rights don't work the way Gamesworshop represent to us. You cannot have the right to an idea, a concept, or a method to do anything. What this company is doing now is not copyright protection. It's just a fight with competitors. They crush independent studios and artists one at a time like ants or cockroaches because they have already begun to pose competition to their business. A huge number of talented artists have appeared in the industry who can take the final product to a completely different quality level. And modern technology allows users to get a physical copy of this work at home at an affordable price and the same quality as a product from a store or large factory. What is happening in the industry right now is not what they call a zero-tolerance copyright policy.

This is a war with competitors, comrades. GamesWorkshop has declared war on all independent artists who make a product that can compete with theirs in the modern world. Their lawyers just come to any of the existing platforms and say this is ours and everyone throws a white flag because this is the path of least resistance today for them. But more and more artist will come, and evolution of technology cannot stop. And all this will last until the path of least resistance for GamesWorkshop will be an open Warhammer3dprinting +. The sooner they understand this, the better it will be for all of us. It difficult time, but here no another way.

Take care of yourself at this unstable time, comrades. God bless you.


I mean, it'll be pretty clear by now that in many regards I agree with the general thrust about GW taking the piss and misrepresenting how infringement works, but...Alexei Konev? Really? Where the Wraith KS was wholly independent, and Dark Gods was pretty solidly in the 'free use' department; Konev is...well, let's just say I wouldn't want to be his lawyer if he ever got caught up in legal trouble with GW. If they ever wanted to chase someone for genuine infringement, he'd probably be one of the ones they'd go for. He actually uses their product names in marketing his wares.

Also, automatically distrust anyone who ever calls you 'comrade' unironically.

 Overread wrote:
This was posted in one of the 3D print discords from the guy who runs the Wraith Kings Army Kickstarter that is now back online with only 3 models being removed (which they've said on KS they'll work on replacing with new sculpts)

Spoiler:



I saw someone else raise the point elsewhere that perhaps the intent behind the current drive in GW isn't so much to crush the competition - that's impossible. It's actually about controlling them. Whip and the apple. If you can reach a point where all your competitors submit their work to your beforehand for your 'approval', you have a phenomenal market advantage. Not sure if I buy it, but it's an interesting thought.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/29 09:46:53


Post by: beast_gts


 Ketara wrote:
If you can reach a point where all your competitors submit their work to your beforehand for your 'approval', you have a phenomenal market advantage. Not sure if I buy it, but it's an interesting thought.
I know a few places (Wargame Exclusive, Taro) have said previously they have discussions with GW to make sure they're on the 'right side' of things. (Wargame Exclusive had issues with some of their shoulder pads, and Taro with the shields IIRC)


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/29 10:21:33


Post by: Overread


Which honestly isn't a bad thing. Neither side actually wants to go to court as both sides could potentially lose a lot. The court costs might be crippling for small studios/one-man-bands and whilst GW can likely soak the court costs, any loss might hit them heavily in their core business. Which is also the same for the 3D designer if they lose. There's also the potential that no side would walk away with a solid win (if I recall Chapterhouse folded not long after their court case?)


As customers we also benefit because it means we get more unique alternate sculpts and designs to use. The only segment that "suffers" are those who purely want 3D printing to provide them with cheaper GW copy (or near copy) designs. Which honestly I don't see as a healthy market to promote because its a race to the bottom with price pure and simple. It's not a sustainable market you can expand or build a business on, esp if people are already giving them away for free in certain places.

In the end I think that a GW that moves forward with, not against, 3D printing and a mature 3D printing market that moves in the same way is a net gain.

I figure GW knows 3D printing won't go away, so if they can at least guide/control/steer it the right way it cant at least work alongside GW and not threaten GW's core business.




And lets not forget this is only talking about those who are producing alternate GW designs. The 3D print market has huge potential outside of that segment of the market. So its not as if GW would control all of 3D printing, not in the least. It would just be working with the segment that is complimenting what GW does already. Heck if a good working relationship were found we might even get more gains out of it in the future.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/29 10:34:30


Post by: Slipspace


 Overread wrote:
Or perhaps the 3D print market stops trying to be the "cheap 40K" and goes somewhere else. Plus as hard as GW hit (which isn't actually that hard), the 3D print market is likely going to get a massive shake up when Hollywood and Video games come a knocking. Because those two markets are huge, with big players who have far more scary (and well paid) legal teams and have no need to appease the market.

Gw is going after creators yes, but they are also giving them clear messages on what infringes and letting them work through and adapt to move past that. Ergo if its a symbol or a specific sculpt that can be remade or removed and the creator cna keep going.


That's a good point. It's pretty obvious which market these people are going after. That's not to say they can't try to tap into that market but you have to be aware of the pitfalls of doing so. Also, while copyright only deals with the expression of an idea rather than the concept itself, there is still the legal concept of striking similarity. You can't create something that's obviously based on someone else's work and claim "well, the arm's a bit different so it doesn't count as copyright infringement". In the real world this is a hugely grey area, but it's not a baseless IP infringement claim to say someone has produced something too similar to your own work.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/29 11:00:53


Post by: Ketara


 Overread wrote:
Which honestly isn't a bad thing. Neither side actually wants to go to court as both sides could potentially lose a lot. The court costs might be crippling for small studios/one-man-bands and whilst GW can likely soak the court costs, any loss might hit them heavily in their core business. Which is also the same for the 3D designer if they lose. There's also the potential that no side would walk away with a solid win (if I recall Chapterhouse folded not long after their court case?)


Games Workshop ran Nick into the ground through dishonest and malicious litigation. To quote from Weeble at the time:-

The Chapterhouse case was never actually about Chapterhouse, for anyone. Except for Nick.

Nick was trying to keep his business alive.

Everyone else involved, everyone, had an agenda. For a lot of folks, the lawsuit was about our tiny slice of the table top games market and who got to control it.

'We' won that fight.

If you are a fan of the direction GW has gone in recently, you quite literally have the Chapterhouse lawsuit to thank.

If you are a fan of the myriad small companies like Anvil Industries, Scibor, and Max Mini that make our little market healthy and diverse, you have the Chapterhouse lawsuit to thank.

GW was on a campaign to strangle market growth with FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Whatever kind of guy Nick Villacci was or is, whatever he did that was 'wrong' or 'stupid' or 'irresponsible', he stood up to GW.

His stand allowed the creation of an unprecedented test case, not only in the table top gaming market, but unprecedented in intellectual property litigation and United States civil litigation writ large.

But nobody wins in a lawsuit. That's just a sad fact. A massive amount of good came out of the GW v Chapterouse case, and we will be feeling its effects for years and years to come.

But nobody party to the case really wins.

GW didn't win, and neither did Chapterhouse. Nick got a massive amount of help, and got years of continued business out of the lawsuit. But he also got used, hard. He knew it, he understood the situation, and he could have backed out at any time.

But because he stayed in for as long as he did, 'we', as in all of us regular folks who love this hobby, were able to reap massive rewards from the case. You may disagree, you may never realize it, but you're reaping the rewards of that case today.

Nick didn't do it for you. He did it for himself, and GW didn't give him any options. But he did it.

He went trough the stress and the anxiety, he went through endless hours of documents and preparation, he went through depositions, he went through public scorn, he listened to people he didn't know calling him a liar and a thief, he went through frustrating and fruitless negotiations over and over, and we went through a weeks-long trial.

He lost his marriage and his house and his business and his friends, and you don't have to feel sorry for him. You don't have to like him.

But he lost, and you gained. And a lot of people did a lot of hard work to make sure that happened, because they wanted to take that gackstorm and make something good out of it.

Which was easy, because Nick was paying the price.


Let's not make the mistake of believing that GW have any altruisitic motive about 'moving forward' with 3d printing or 'working with' it. They took the mick before, and they're taking it again now. At some point, they'll hit another legal wall with it if they carry it on. It's only because Nick Villacci got hammered to the curb that GW even have any caution or restraint about this at all. Remember, Rachel Tongue (the nominal collective head of legal &financial affairs at GW) got promoted to her role in 2012. She oversaw everything but the opening of the original CH case the year before. Merritt and Gill took the hit, but she was in there too.

This is the nature of large corporations. They always test to see what they can get away with. And I don't believe for one minute that a large company overstepping its legal boundaries is ever going to result in more choice or a better market for me as a consumer.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/29 11:36:23


Post by: lord_blackfang


Yeah it's naive to think GW will just stop at the logical legal boundary by themselves. They'll nag and nag and nag, they'll C&D ever more tenuously related sculpts until someone puts themselves on the line again to enforce that boundary in court.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/30 12:49:36


Post by: Ketara


For anyone who (like me) was wondering whether MMF was going to be more flexible than Kickstarter or Patreon, apparently they've updated their policies to be stricter than before with regards to stuff that might infringe on GW IP. So they've cast their die - they're not willing to risk anything.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/30 16:21:55


Post by: chaos0xomega


Rihgu wrote:
If I know which Kickstarter you're talking about, the wraiths weren't really that generic. Much more Nighthaunt (smokey robes with skulls and arms and stuff) than say, every other generic wraith I've ever seen which is nothing more than a smokey robe.


The big issue with that kickstarter was that about half the miniatures in that model range were basically identical poses to GWs minis with only minor aesthetic/stylistic changes to differentiate them, and in many cases using similar names to market them (and in at least a couple cases directly referenced Nighthaunt, which is a trademarked term), etc. Theres a certain give and take, an art if you will, to riffing off of someones IP. You have to imagine there being a checklist of qualities for what it is you're doing (i.e. names, iconography/symbols, various stylistic design elements, poses/geometry, etc. etc. etc.), the more boxes on that checklist you hit the more likely you are to get a C&D for infringement.

In general - speaking as someone who designs and sells 3d printable terrain riffing off GWs IP, a lot of designers are really lazy and make what are essentially as close to a straight knock-off of GWs designs as you can get short of recasting their minis rather than putting a spin on it to try to make it unique or stand out. In part, I suspect that its because consumers are unimaginative and lazy and *want* straight knock-offs rather than something that would work just as easily but has some degree of spin or differentiation placed on it. To give an example, imagine two designers are producing Tomb Kings knockoffs. One of them plays it straight and does a literal translation of GWs egyptian Tomb Kings aesthetic. The other one makes all the same units which are essentially WYSIWYG for the army book in terms of size, shape, armament, etc. but puts a spin on it and instead of being Egyptian they look more Babylonian or maybe more Grecian or even MesoAmerican.

Which do you think is going to sell more and be more popular, even though both options are equally as functional and most likely priced equivalently (and in many cases the latter option is probably better designed in terms of its printability and general aesthetic design and sculpt quality, because people investing the creative effort into putting spin on something like that know they have an uphill climb to push sales vs something which is a straight rip)?

Its the one that edges closer to GWs own native designs. The closer, the better, because people aren't *really* interested in "creativity", "innovation" or "free expression" or whatever it is the proponents of the infringing designs/designers use to try to justify it, they just want a way to get GWs product - or something exceptionally close to it - for less money. And thats why IP laws exist - in order to give the original designers a defensible moat so they can maintain their exclusivity and continue to derive profit from their intellectual capital.

In any case, we can see from the followup that the problem was actually certain very specific items in the campaign, which not coincidentally are specific concepts - or fixed expressions, if you will - that I can only really associate with GWs Nighthaunt designs and therefore are, in fact, infringements on its IP. So all this doom and gloom about GW trying to copyright bedsheet ghosts or whatever was clearly overwrought.

 Ketara wrote:
Spoiler:

The Chapterhouse case was never actually about Chapterhouse, for anyone. Except for Nick.
Nick was trying to keep his business alive.
Everyone else involved, everyone, had an agenda. For a lot of folks, the lawsuit was about our tiny slice of the table top games market and who got to control it.
'We' won that fight.
If you are a fan of the direction GW has gone in recently, you quite literally have the Chapterhouse lawsuit to thank.
If you are a fan of the myriad small companies like Anvil Industries, Scibor, and Max Mini that make our little market healthy and diverse, you have the Chapterhouse lawsuit to thank.
GW was on a campaign to strangle market growth with FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. Whatever kind of guy Nick Villacci was or is, whatever he did that was 'wrong' or 'stupid' or 'irresponsible', he stood up to GW.
His stand allowed the creation of an unprecedented test case, not only in the table top gaming market, but unprecedented in intellectual property litigation and United States civil litigation writ large.
But nobody wins in a lawsuit. That's just a sad fact. A massive amount of good came out of the GW v Chapterouse case, and we will be feeling its effects for years and years to come.
But nobody party to the case really wins.
GW didn't win, and neither did Chapterhouse. Nick got a massive amount of help, and got years of continued business out of the lawsuit. But he also got used, hard. He knew it, he understood the situation, and he could have backed out at any time.
But because he stayed in for as long as he did, 'we', as in all of us regular folks who love this hobby, were able to reap massive rewards from the case. You may disagree, you may never realize it, but you're reaping the rewards of that case today.
Nick didn't do it for you. He did it for himself, and GW didn't give him any options. But he did it.
He went trough the stress and the anxiety, he went through endless hours of documents and preparation, he went through depositions, he went through public scorn, he listened to people he didn't know calling him a liar and a thief, he went through frustrating and fruitless negotiations over and over, and we went through a weeks-long trial.
He lost his marriage and his house and his business and his friends, and you don't have to feel sorry for him. You don't have to like him.
But he lost, and you gained. And a lot of people did a lot of hard work to make sure that happened, because they wanted to take that gackstorm and make something good out of it.
Which was easy, because Nick was paying the price.

Let's not make the mistake of believing that GW have any altruisitic motive about 'moving forward' with 3d printing or 'working with' it. They took the mick before, and they're taking it again now. At some point, they'll hit another legal wall with it if they carry it on. It's only because Nick Villacci got hammered to the curb that GW even have any caution or restraint about this at all. Remember, Rachel Tongue (the nominal collective head of legal &financial affairs at GW) got promoted to her role in 2012. She oversaw everything but the opening of the original CH case the year before. Merritt and Gill took the hit, but she was in there too.
This is the nature of large corporations. They always test to see what they can get away with. And I don't believe for one minute that a large company overstepping its legal boundaries is ever going to result in more choice or a better market for me as a consumer.


Geez, talk about making someone a martyr. The impact and results of the Chapterhouse lawsuit are generally misunderstood and largely overblown. Sucks for Nick, I mean, but the main crux of what occurred is that GW can't claim a model is infringing on its IP if GW never produced the model in the first place or depicted it in artwork, etc. In the case of these kickstarters, they are models which are derivative of models/artwork/concepts that GW *does* produce and *does* depict - you can ask Nick about the 200 or so minor claims that GW won against him on the basis that the sculpts were infringing against GWs IP on the basis of similarity. The impact of that is that GW doesn't depict anything that it doesn't produce a model for, basically. It doesn't mean that third party designers have free run to produce miniatures that are identical to GWs own.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/30 18:46:50


Post by: Malika2


Preach it, brother!!!


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/30 20:22:50


Post by: yukishiro1


It absolutely is not good for the consumer if GW manages to create a system where competitors have to check in with them before releasing products and get their blessing to do it. That has antitrust concerns written all over it in terms of the likely impact on competitiveness.

When competitors work together, that isn't competition any more.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/30 20:37:12


Post by: Overread


yukishiro1 wrote:
It absolutely is not good for the consumer if GW manages to create a system where competitors have to check in with them before releasing products and get their blessing to do it. That has antitrust concerns written all over it in terms of the likely impact on competitiveness.

When competitors work together, that isn't competition any more.


I would argue that designers who are making "counts as" are not competitors with GW. They aren't actually competing with GW in a direct sense, they are complimenting.
It's not the same as Privateer Press or Mini Monster Mayhem needing to ask permission of GW to make their own thing. This is designers who are setting out with the clear intention of copying elements of GW's design in order to produce alternative sculpts for people who are already GW customers in some form (even if only in supporting the games through playing and not through current model purchases).

Heck those who are using GW armies as a structural platform and then doing totally unique sculpts aren't even affected.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/30 21:35:41


Post by: yukishiro1


You can argue whatever you want. If GW didn't see these modelers as competitors, they wouldn't be doing what they are doing.

The people who make the cheap generic print cartridges are most certainly in competition with the manufacturers of the printers who want to make money selling their expensive branded cartridges.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/30 21:37:28


Post by: Ketara


chaos0xomega wrote:

The big issue with that kickstarter was that about half the miniatures in that model range were basically identical poses to GWs minis with only minor aesthetic/stylistic changes to differentiate them, and in many cases using similar names to market them (and in at least a couple cases directly referenced Nighthaunt, which is a trademarked term), etc. Theres a certain give and take, an art if you will, to riffing off of someones IP. You have to imagine there being a checklist of qualities for what it is you're doing (i.e. names, iconography/symbols, various stylistic design elements, poses/geometry, etc. etc. etc.), the more boxes on that checklist you hit the more likely you are to get a C&D for infringement.

Sorry, you've made the claim. Could you provide the evidence? Namely, the multiple direct references to Nighthaunt in a fashion that infringed upon the IP? Also, you are aware of the fact that a 'pose' isn't copyrightable, right? I'd appreciate it if you could nail down for me the actual exact -expression- of an idea by Games Workshop which is being copied in the campaign, and the checklist you mention.

You seem pretty clear in stating that these are 'basically identical', and whatever GW eventually chose to go with as a means of resolution, that has absolutely no bearing on the legality of things.

In any case, we can see from the followup that the problem was actually certain very specific items in the campaign, which not coincidentally are specific concepts - or fixed expressions, if you will - that I can only really associate with GWs Nighthaunt designs and therefore are, in fact, infringements on its IP. So all this doom and gloom about GW trying to copyright bedsheet ghosts or whatever was clearly overwrought.


...I'm just going to point you to the bit of Games Workshop's complaint to KS which claimed it infringed 'A significant part of Games Workshop's expression of the Nighthaunt'. You can of course, write to them to tell that they got their own initial and generalised complaint wrong.


Geez, talk about making someone a martyr. The impact and results of the Chapterhouse lawsuit are generally misunderstood and largely overblown.

You are aware, of course, that you're implying that part of Nick's legal team (which Weeble was) has....misunderstood the impact and results of the case he spent five years intimately working on? I'd be fascinated to hear on what basis you're dismissing his commentary. The more details the better. I love hearing well reasoned and evidenced legal commentary. Weird I know, but I take a real interest in it when it comes to wargaming IP.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/30 21:47:51


Post by: ArcaneHorror


What about bits sites like Puppetwars?


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/30 21:49:22


Post by: Overread


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
What about bits sites like Puppetwars?


As long as their bits aren't copies of GW models (or exceptionally close too) they'll be fine; like Wargame Exclusive or any one of a number of other model makers. GW might try squeezing with tighter rules on tournaments but that really only affects Warhammer World in general.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/30 22:06:40


Post by: Slipspace


 Ketara wrote:

Also, you are aware of the fact that a 'pose' isn't copyrightable, right? I'd appreciate it if you could nail down for me the actual exact -expression- of an idea by Games Workshop which is being copied in the campaign.


A pose may not be copyrightable, but copyright laws do include protections against someone making something "strikingly similar". That's likely where the Wraith King stuff had a problem. You can't copyright a pose, true. The general concept of a floaty ghost with a sword and no legs isn't copyrightable. There's a spectrum between a generic ghost figure and a direct copy of a Nighthaunt and the law doesn't only protect a direct 1-to-1 copy. There is protection for striking similarity. How close you need to be to the model in question before you're infringing is pretty much what a court case is used to determine. There's no hard and fast rule, merely shades of grey that need to be judged on a case-by-case basis.

From looking at the renders from the campaign I can certainly see how some of the models would fall foul of the strikingly similar criteria. Not sure it's an absolute nailed-on certainty, but if I was the creator I'd be a little concerned about a lawsuit over some of the models. You also have to consider the possibility that the creator knew exactly what they were doing with those sculpts, so when GW called them on it they may have felt they had been rumbled.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/30 22:06:56


Post by: lord_blackfang


Depends also on whether a judge who isn't a lifelong warhams player and can't recite the power armour marks if woken up in the middle of the night can tell apart Space Marine heads and not-Space Marine heads.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/30 23:46:17


Post by: Ketara


Slipspace wrote:

A pose may not be copyrightable, but copyright laws do include protections against someone making something "strikingly similar". That's likely where the Wraith King stuff had a problem. You can't copyright a pose, true. The general concept of a floaty ghost with a sword and no legs isn't copyrightable. There's a spectrum between a generic ghost figure and a direct copy of a Nighthaunt and the law doesn't only protect a direct 1-to-1 copy. There is protection for striking similarity. How close you need to be to the model in question before you're infringing is pretty much what a court case is used to determine. There's no hard and fast rule, merely shades of grey that need to be judged on a case-by-case basis.

Totally and absolutely correct.

At the same time, the bar for artistic originality is actually really quite low, historically speaking. It's why I can take a plastic Bloodletter of Khorne, recast it forty times, glue them all together in a big ball, spray them Fulgrim pink, and then put them on the end of a stick labelled 'The Fethstick of Wargaming Commerce'. And then do it another hundred times as a limited run and sell each 'Khornestick' as works of art. Even though I'm literally recasting and using Games Workshop's sculpts in this example, this would be protected as artistically original under copyright law.

When it comes to determining whether or not a completely original artwork infringes on another (because that's all the law guarantees at the end of the day - the copyright of an expression), it's like you say. It's a weighting of evidence, an accumulation of identical facets. But there have to be sufficient similarity for the alleged infringer to not be ruled an -original- work in it's own right (because that would make it deserving of independent copyright) and instead merely a replica of another previously existing work. This requires a substantial accrual of many similarities of many types, a burden of evidence that stretches far beyond 'they both have skulls and flowy robes m'lud'.

In some cases however, this can be made easier by pursuing trademarked images and words instead of copyright. Trademarks are especially powerful because they bring into play the part of law to do with confusion of product. That is to say, if an average punter would conflate your product and the trademark, it doesn't matter how different it is artistically speaking, it still infringes. There's a slight burden of evidence in that a trademark does have to show usage in standard commercial application, but this is usually easily met. This is where sometimes people mix up the Chapterhouse case. Almost half of the claims GW succeeded in winning against CH were for trademarks - not copyright.

Even then however, if something is in generic enough usage, the trademark might not hold. Of GW's final claims for trademarks, 38 were upheld, but 26 more were ruled as fair usage (as being too generic), and 28 were dismissed as bad/meaningless.



GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/31 07:11:48


Post by: Albertorius


Also, remember, after multiple litigations, the judges have deemed Catalyst's new Reseens as different enough so that they've dismissed all claims with prejudice, and those are expressly created to be reimaginings of the same designs:

Spoiler:









They have been thorougly contested, and they are a-ok enough to make sure it never comes up again.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/31 15:25:00


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Ketara wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

The big issue with that kickstarter was that about half the miniatures in that model range were basically identical poses to GWs minis with only minor aesthetic/stylistic changes to differentiate them, and in many cases using similar names to market them (and in at least a couple cases directly referenced Nighthaunt, which is a trademarked term), etc. Theres a certain give and take, an art if you will, to riffing off of someones IP. You have to imagine there being a checklist of qualities for what it is you're doing (i.e. names, iconography/symbols, various stylistic design elements, poses/geometry, etc. etc. etc.), the more boxes on that checklist you hit the more likely you are to get a C&D for infringement.

Sorry, you've made the claim. Could you provide the evidence? Namely, the multiple direct references to Nighthaunt in a fashion that infringed upon the IP? Also, you are aware of the fact that a 'pose' isn't copyrightable, right? I'd appreciate it if you could nail down for me the actual exact -expression- of an idea by Games Workshop which is being copied in the campaign, and the checklist you mention.

You seem pretty clear in stating that these are 'basically identical', and whatever GW eventually chose to go with as a means of resolution, that has absolutely no bearing on the legality of things.

In any case, we can see from the followup that the problem was actually certain very specific items in the campaign, which not coincidentally are specific concepts - or fixed expressions, if you will - that I can only really associate with GWs Nighthaunt designs and therefore are, in fact, infringements on its IP. So all this doom and gloom about GW trying to copyright bedsheet ghosts or whatever was clearly overwrought.


...I'm just going to point you to the bit of Games Workshop's complaint to KS which claimed it infringed 'A significant part of Games Workshop's expression of the Nighthaunt'. You can of course, write to them to tell that they got their own initial and generalised complaint wrong.


Geez, talk about making someone a martyr. The impact and results of the Chapterhouse lawsuit are generally misunderstood and largely overblown.

You are aware, of course, that you're implying that part of Nick's legal team (which Weeble was) has....misunderstood the impact and results of the case he spent five years intimately working on? I'd be fascinated to hear on what basis you're dismissing his commentary. The more details the better. I love hearing well reasoned and evidenced legal commentary. Weird I know, but I take a real interest in it when it comes to wargaming IP.


I'm not going to waste my time doing the work on this for you, because frankly its going to take a lot longer than its worth and my time at hte moment is limited and needed for more valuable endeavors. But with regards to Weeble (assuming he really was on the legal team as you contend), a picture is worth a thousand words:



Okay - maybe thats being mean. Hes no doubt proud of his involvement, I would be too. In any case, Weeble didn't make any specific claims as to what the "good" that came out of it was or what specifically changed, only that we are "reaping the rewards". My contention is that he's being dramatic/hyperbolic and the scope of what changed and what the impact was is not as sweeping or dramatic as he is portraying it to be. This is a matter of perspective and not something I can "prove" to you. Established legal precedent at the time (at least in the US) was always pretty clear that the production and sale of aftermarket accessories for someone elses product, etc. was not an infringement of someones copyright, trademark, or IP (though as I recall there were many on dakka and other communities without any legal expertise who tried to argue otherwise) - which is why Chapterhouse won many of the claims that it won. There was a fuzziness or grey area (which still exists today, though it has gained more definition and clarity) as to what extent GW could protect the design of a miniature - GW won many of the claims that fell into this category (many on basis of trademark specifically, but quite a few on the basis of similarity of likeness), Chapterhouse won some (but not as many) claims here as well. The big ticket win/loss here, which did set some new legal precedent, was with regards to GWs inability to claim a model infringes on GWs IP if the model depicts something that GW does not themselves make a model for or depict something that GW has not shown in artwork - as I stated previously. The major change in direction from GW that resulted from this is that they killed rules for anything that didn't have a miniature (which I'm not really sure anyone is particularly a fan of) and stopped portraying things in artwork which they did not produce miniatures for as well (now all we get is names of things with vague descriptions).

The only other change I can fathom Weeble might be referring to would be a potential decrease in GWs litigiousness or willingness to send out C&Ds - I have no empirical data to prove one way or another that GW actually dialed it back or not, but I will point out that most of the current bitz and alt-40k options out there predate the Chapterhouse lawsuit and weren't C&D'd into non-existence, so was that a huge change? I don't know, maybe if they had "won" the case they would have C&D'd more of these guys out of existence - in any case this was less of a function of the law and more of a function of GW being a bully and trying to wield the law as a cudgel to stifle competitors and defend its moat. GW was able to get away with it because they had the resources to bully and threaten small-time shops, not because the law was actually on GWs side. In that sense, I suppose you could argue that the outcome of the case was as dramatic as Weeble is portraying it, because GW got a nice black eye out of it and had to back off for fear of taking more hits - BUT there was nothing specific to the legal outcome of the case that actually prevents GW from taking this case, its not like they were threatened or warned against pursuing further litigation against other parties.

Almost half of the claims GW succeeded in winning against CH were for trademarks - not copyright.


BUT GW still did win a number of claims on the basis of copyright: https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1200&context=historical

For example:
Upon independent examination, the Court finds that GW’s shoulder pads involve
enough originality to afford them copyright protection. The unusually large proportional
size of the shoulder pads as compared to the Space Marine’s head (depicted in GW’s
product at entry 49) is a creative addition to the common shoulder pads sometimes
worn by real-life soldiers in battle. The shoulder pads created to fit onto GW’s physical
figurines, though more proportionally accurate, are nevertheless still larger and boxier
than those typically found outside of the Warhammer 40,000 fantasy world. The Court
thus concludes that GW is entitled to copyright protection as to the design of its
shoulder pads.

The Court likewise rejects Chapterhouse’s contention that other GW shoulder
pad designs are ineligible for copyright protection. Chapterhouse contends that for
GW’s products in entries 48, 50, and 56 on the Claim Chart, the only similarities
between the parties’ works are common geometric shapes—such as an “X” or a
chevron—that are in the public domain and are not copyrightable. “It is true that
common geometric shapes cannot be copyrighted.” Kelley v. Chicago Park Dist., 635
F.3d 290, 303 (7th Cir. 2011). Yet although GW could not base its copyright claim on a
20
Case: 1:10-cv-08103 Document #: 258 Filed: 11/27/12 Page 20 of 36 PageID #:14881
depiction of an “X” or a chevron alone, its depiction of that otherwise-common element
affixed on an original, creative shoulder pad with a distinctive color scheme is sufficient
to satisfy the originality requirement. See Kay Berry, Inc. v. Taylor Gifts, Inc., 421 F.3d
199, 207 (3d Cir. 2005) (“When an author combines [otherwise non-protected] elements
and adds his or her own imaginative spark, creation occurs, and the author is entitled to
protection for the result.”); Tufenian Import/Export Ventures, Inc. v. Einstein Moomjy,
Inc., 338 F.3d 127, 134 (2d Cir. 2003) (“[T]he defendant may infringe on the plaintiff’s
work not only through literal copying of a portion of it, but also by parroting properties
that are apparent only when numerous aesthetic decisions embodied in the plaintiff’s
work of art . . . are considered in relation to one another.”). Chapterhouse’s motion for
summary judgment on the basis that GW’s shoulder pads are not copyrightable is
therefore denied. The Court’s finding resolves this issue for entries 4–7, 12–13, 19–20,
46–48, 50–52, 56–62, 64–65, and 101–02 on the Claim Chart.


The GW products at issue in entries 3, 63, 83, and 104 of the Copyright Claim
Chart are also copyrightable. A skull is not protectable on its own, but GW’s particular
depiction of a Chaplain in entry 3, which includes a skull with red eyes that wears a
helmet, is copyrightable.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/07/31 16:46:29


Post by: Ketara


chaos0xomega wrote:

I'm not going to waste my time doing the work on this for you, because frankly its going to take a lot longer than its worth and my time at hte moment is limited and needed for more valuable endeavors.

Errrr...you claimed that the Kickstarter mentioned was using Nighthaunt terminology (presumably in its marketing/description). I, as a backer, have not seen a single such reference. It's possible I've missed them, and if so, I'm happy to alter my opinion somewhat on the extent to which they're conflating their product with GW.

But this isn't something that would require much effort to evidence, certainly it would have taken far less than your extensive paragraphs on what Weeble wrote. A quick quote with an indication of where you saw it would do.

.The only other change I can fathom Weeble might be referring to would be a potential decrease in GWs litigiousness or willingness to send out C&Ds - I have no empirical data to prove one way or another that GW actually dialed it back or not, but I will point out that most of the current bitz and alt-40k options out there predate the Chapterhouse lawsuit and weren't C&D'd into non-existence, so was that a huge change? I don't know,


I think this is what he meant, and it's certainly what I got out of it. Someone else might have a different opinion (I haven't bothered to compile a actual data either), but from my recollection, most bits makers don't actually predate the Chapterhouse case. And the ones that did offered a much more limited scope. You essentially had (if memory serves) Maxmini, Scibor, and Kromlech as the alternatives at the time. Kromlech was essentially just doing orcs at that stage (ain't no-one gonna square up with the Tolkien estate), Scibor did ridiculously over the top ornate and differently sized miniatures, and Maxmini played it exceptionally safe with generic components. And even then, the GW C&D's still went out consistently over small things (I remember one firibble with the PW Club for example). Everything was quite small and tentative that was deliberately geared towards the Warhammer market.

Then Chapterhouse appeared and basically made hay; using GW models in their pictures, referencing the 40K names/categories on the website, and even using their trademarked designs on shoulder pads and the like. They didn't just poke the bear, they shoved the stick right into its eye.

BUT GW still did win a number of claims on the basis of copyright:


Something which I feel you also don't give enough credit for is that of the cases in favour of GW's copyright awarded by the Jury, there was much dissent. To take the shoulder pad example, the US Registry Office (or whichever department it is in the US responsible for such things) actually refused to endorse the pads as having valid copyright IIRC. Chapterhouse's team were seriously confident that the jury had been inconsistent on their rulings as to what did and did not apply for protection,and that furthermore, most of their rulings in GW's favour did not actually reflect either the letter or intent of the law. Hence why it was going to be carried on until they managed to squeeze Nick's house onto the target list.

If one is inclined to do so, it's very easy to just go 'Yeah, but the opposing team would say that, wouldn't they!' And that's true, to a point. By the same measure however, I remember reading through it at the time and thinking that they had a damn good point, and the jury was exceedingly inconsistent. YMMV, but I'm reasonably certain that if it had gone the whole mile, most of the raft of remaining claims related to copyright would have been slung out by the next court along. And Games Workshop was certainly panicking at the time. I've read a few second hand accounts from in-house since, and they considered themselves to have gotten off easy; given that they were literally sanctioned for fraud at one point (in their depositions I believe? Could be misremembering the area) and the poor foundation most of their claims rested on. Both the judge and jury were bored as hell and gave them a very easy ride to try and make it end quickly.

The main result of Chapterhouse was that both wider sector and GW reached something of a more neutral balance. Even though they were very clearly and legally allowed to do so, you won't see any third party manufacturers using Games Workshop names in their sales categories, or struck down trademarks in their artwork. By the same measure however, Games Workshop drew back and adopted much more of a 'If you don't link to our IP in an obvious fashion, we won't sue you' approach. It's why places like Wargames Exclusive still exist today, which have a thousand times more similarities than the wraith KS. Both sides essentially adopted something of a wary mutual respect for each other's territory. That atmosphere, I would argue (and which I think Weeble was implying), is what the Chapterhouse established for the wider hobby. If another case ever went back to court, there's a damn good chance GW would just lose even more ground, and it's that risk which kept them from doing so.


It's what makes GW's recent deviation from the established habit of the last several years really quite interesting. I think the refreshment of the legal team has something to do with it, but the fact they're not renewing their assault on the resin 3rd party companies implies strongly that they perceive the 3d print market in a different fashion. It could be simple opportunism (the ease of getting a takedown on Patreon/KS), but I'm not so sure. The way they went in heavy with this recent wraith/Dark Gods Kickstarters, only to then row back just as quickly implies either disorganisation in the department (possible), or a calculated strategy. I suspect the latter. Working out what that strategy is? Well, that's the fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT:- Orc King Space War's patreon has just been taken down.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/02 13:25:57


Post by: Zeppeli


 kodos wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
There are so many examples both as art or as physical wargaming models that it really beggars belief that GW is attempting to claim ownership of the entire genre. Here are some of (literally thousands) of examples.

none of those looks close to the Nighthaunt or the models in the KS



those are not like 1000 other examples, but a little bit too close to the orginal and calling them Markers instead of Spells, won't do much


I think WotC should DMCA GW.... Find the Lurker card from The Dark set....



GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/02 16:04:34


Post by: PondaNagura


 Ketara wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT:- Orc King Space War's patreon has just been taken down.


Their regular non-space war page is still up.
Apparently they thought trying to release this was a wise business decision.
Isn't the original supposed to be an incentive to sign up for warhammer+ for a year or something?
I think GW is gonna take umbrage with copycats that directly jeopardize subscription numbers


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/03 00:50:47


Post by: Ketara


Jesus, you're not wrong. That was a direct copy. What on earth made him think he'd get away with that? There's being inspired by something, being tongue in cheek, being heavily "inspired by" something, and then there's just taking the piss. No sympathy on this end at all.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/03 01:51:18


Post by: chaos0xomega


As I said/implied earlier, theres a lot of artists and designers, etc. out there that just don't "get it". Part of it is driven by the artists/designers being skilled but not creative, part of it is laziness and greed, and part of it is the customer base for these products overwhelmingly being narrow-minded and cheap.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/03 08:45:28


Post by: Overread


Some of it is also cultural. I notice that some of the designers who put up more pushback/attempt to hide better or otherwise don't seem to get "get it" tend to be from outside of the UK/USA sphere.

I think there are countries where the concept of copyright is a little different; or the perception of it is a little different.

In addition different nations can have slightly different attitudes toward things and some of it might just be a kind of anti-big-overseas-company attitude.



Mixed in with that there's also real copyright aspects that do protect the independent creator as well. So it can be a confusing ball of opinions, esp since copyright is often something not really taught to many and if they've learned their art through self teaching (majority) they might well have never really need to learn in depth what copyrights and such are at a functional level.



Finally there's also those who are against copyright as a concept, though I notice that they tend to be more anti-big-business more than anything because they'll always cite how copyright allows Disney to abuse it, but forget that the very same rules are protecting their own creations and all the smaller creators as well.





Personally I'm all for GW protecting their copyright. I think it does the 3D Printing market good all round to be weened off the idea of copying what works and instead pushed and encouraged into providing different things. I've said it often that if the market gets happy copying GW then it won't be long before they are copying everyone else who does well - Puppets War, Wargame Exclusive etc... and even each other within the 3D print world. At which point you enter a free-for-all race to the bottom and in the end customers don't benefit.

However a market that grows on the foundations of unique designs and with elements of solidarity and working with not against each other; has far more potential to provide more and better for the customer.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/03 09:18:47


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Overread wrote:

Finally there's also those who are against copyright as a concept, though I notice that they tend to be more anti-big-business more than anything because they'll always cite how copyright allows Disney to abuse it, but forget that the very same rules are protecting their own creations and all the smaller creators as well.

In my experience, they argue that it doesn't actually protect small creators due to the costs involved in litigation. If a company is bigger than you and steals your work, they don't necessarily need to win the case, they just need to outlast your ability to access the legal system.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/03 10:55:25


Post by: Albertorius


 Overread wrote:
Mixed in with that there's also real copyright aspects that do protect the independent creator as well. So it can be a confusing ball of opinions, esp since copyright is often something not really taught to many and if they've learned their art through self teaching (majority) they might well have never really need to learn in depth what copyrights and such are at a functional level.

I mean that is true... but it's not less true that the copyright laws protect the big corpos much more than they protect the independent creator by the simple fact that the big corpos can (and do) litigate, whereas the small, independent creators simply can't most of the time.

Particularly when they have to defend their rights against those aforementioned big corpos.

It's very much a case of "the laws might be the same for all, but the way they are applied, and to whom, ain't".


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/04 18:29:11


Post by: TheWaspinator


On a kind of hilarious tangent, Gearguts has already released files for a couple of the new Ork units that haven't even been officially released yet.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/04 18:33:49


Post by: Overread


 Albertorius wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Mixed in with that there's also real copyright aspects that do protect the independent creator as well. So it can be a confusing ball of opinions, esp since copyright is often something not really taught to many and if they've learned their art through self teaching (majority) they might well have never really need to learn in depth what copyrights and such are at a functional level.

I mean that is true... but it's not less true that the copyright laws protect the big corpos much more than they protect the independent creator by the simple fact that the big corpos can (and do) litigate, whereas the small, independent creators simply can't most of the time.

Particularly when they have to defend their rights against those aforementioned big corpos.

It's very much a case of "the laws might be the same for all, but the way they are applied, and to whom, ain't".


True, but lets also not forget that GW are not Apple or Disney and that the first big time GW went to court - they did not do half as well as they thought they would. Granted that's because their legal advice at the time was from someone who wasn't as well versed in the law as he thought he was. It was enough to send CD letters but not to stand up in court.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/04 19:06:43


Post by: Albertorius


 Overread wrote:
True, but lets also not forget that GW are not Apple or Disney and that the first big time GW went to court - they did not do half as well as they thought they would. Granted that's because their legal advice at the time was from someone who wasn't as well versed in the law as he thought he was. It was enough to send CD letters but not to stand up in court.


I'm sure that's fine for them most of the time, simply because most creators will comply with a C&D letter, or the plattform they're in will comply for them, and they don't have the money to litigate with GW.

That first time you mention was only possible because a lawyer acted pro bono to begin with.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/11 19:56:34


Post by: Ketara


From the Dark Gods Kickstarter

Please don't expect near-replicas of the now forsaken models, and please try not to send suggestive messages to rise up and release them free. I am under a lot of pressure not to let those models loose or lose everything I have made thus far.


Interesting quote. It implies that GW threatened to go after his other works if he didn't bend the metaphorical knee and do what they said. If legal/IP concerns were their genuine worry, that would be strange - one would think they would already be chasing anything that they considered to infringe after all.

The notion that this is more about controlling and directing warhammer derivatives in the print market than it is IP infringement is certainly gaining more credence in my mind.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/11 21:29:58


Post by: Overread


IF he has a written agreement with GW to not release those models and then does so, even if GW don't have iron tight copyright, they have a breach of contract/agreement with him.

So yes if he agrees not to distribute them, and then does, he could well face losing it all.

He's also likely getting a LOT of angry/supportive/missguided fans (and people who just hate GW) sending him messages too. Likely a huge mix of "make a stand" and "go on show it to them" and all the rest.



In the end if he reworks the designs and pushes forward everyone walks away with a win.

He might also have had to do a bit of fighting to secure some of hte ones that aren't pulled down - ergo those close to the mark - and GW might be fine letting some of those go if he keeps to the agreement with the first lot.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 00:12:00


Post by: Monkeysloth


 Overread wrote:


He's also likely getting a LOT of angry/supportive/missguided fans (and people who just hate GW) sending him messages too. Likely a huge mix of "make a stand" and "go on show it to them" and all the rest.


Its easy to be the one calling for a fight when you'll loose nothing regardless of the outcome.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 05:51:34


Post by: kodos


there is a different problem behind those than just "loose nothing"

there are people around who see a donation as "payment" for a product and any changes to the product they payed for is a no-go

making a Kickstater with renders and "final product may look different depening on the process used in the end" and some people will be very angry if the model looks differnt because this is not what they payed for

same way as seeing people still getting angry at Mantic because they did not make 1:1 copies of old GW models in plastic (seen as the main critical point of their new Halflings in some places "hate them because they don't look like the GW metal ones")

and those are not many, they are vocal and have strong feelings for their demand (not just the internet meme "haters" but real hate, which is a problem)


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 07:17:07


Post by: Overread


Agreed on both counts - that said KS is a project proposal system and I'm fairly sure many of those who have paid will be happy with reworks once they get to see them. Though they might underestimate how long they take to create.




GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 09:15:55


Post by: Sarouan


TBH, there's also the problem that in general, 3D sculptors going independant tend to sell their files to low prices. If you're alone, that may help to get complementary money in addition to another job, but I'm not sure it's really helping those who try to make a fair living out of this on the long term. It also tends to depreciate 3D sculptors work value (and salaries) to others companies...

There's the false perception in 3D printing that making 3D files is cheap and easy. Not helping when you have those who make it for fun / free. I think the market will need to evolve further and not just cripple professionnal 3D sculptors on long term just because of that.

Not really sure it's good for everyone on long term. Sure, customers may have files for cheap on short term, but at what price ? When 3D sculptors decide to give up because it's not worth it anymore to try to live out of it, we'll see what happens for them.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 11:34:27


Post by: kodos


I have not looked into many files that are sold, but from what I have seen alls the cheap ones needed additional work as there were no supports and/or those were never test-printed

so additional work was needed or did not work well with the available printer

so they were cheap for a reason reducing the amount of complains


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 11:36:56


Post by: Overread


From what I see you can make good money IF you can market yourself decently well, make good stuff and get a nice high hundreds to low thousands of backers on Patreon.

The real issue is burn-out and the race to the bottom in terms of price per model. Burn out is simply that Patreon is 12 months of the year and if you want to keep customers whlist you can set a dry month (no new content, customers not charged) its easier to maintain your market interest by having releases every month.

Ontop you add people wanting to push out as much as they can because the more they have the more "value" many causal people can see.


The trap is that they end up working at maximum output every month and not wanting to pause. Which is fine for the first year perhaps; but it means any illness, any delay; any problem (eg file has errors that need fixing); or any holiday or time off - suddenly becomes a huge problem.



Long term some plan ahead, realise the traps and take steps to avoid it. Focusing on social interaction and marketing; focusing on quality over quantity; focusing on not working at their maximum capacity so they've got time to work on side projects (eg a KS or independent releases or just spare models for a sick week/week off etc..). They also learn to bundle old models into the new which increases perceived value as there's always new people joining in.

Right now I'm honestly impressed how well the model can work for a single creator or small team. I've also seen a few team up to offer more and some of the bigger ones are contracting out to several designers for work.

Right now the market seems to work and because the customer market is also growing its a growth on both fronts that seems to balance out ok. I think stagnation points or trouble spots can arise - when the number of designers increases without increases in customers or if designers all do the same sorts of thing without any plans (one or two I know talk to each other to avoid doing the same theme at the same time, or if they do to then ensure they don't end up doing the same concept models and such).



I do agree that there is a concern that the market is in a "race to the bottom" in terms of price; however I think that as 3D printing expands it should be able to shed that feeling toward higher value or at least not lowering from where it is now.
It doesn't help that some view 3D printing as the "cheap" optoin and their prime reason for doing it isn't just quality or increased variety, but primarily because its cheap. However I think that there's a healthy influx of those who are in it for other reasons - though that said I can only say what I've seen in the social circles - I've no idea what messages designers get


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 11:42:52


Post by: kirotheavenger


I think describing stuff like Patreon or Kickstarter as just donations is not really true.
"Donate £10 to me and I'll give you an STL" is selling, I'm pretty sure there's already something to this effect in law because that'd be a perfect tax/responsibility dodge otherwise.

That said, I do agree that people can become very entitled to things and are quick to inspire others to fight for their cause.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 11:48:43


Post by: the_scotsman


as much as I like the idea of more original designs winning out, I would miss it if all gw-copycat stuff was removed because there is some ridiculously fun, creative alternative armies out there that are still clearly aping gw but giving you something you can't buy from GW.

I support Edge Miniatures for example, because in all my years of playing Dark Eldar I have gotten seven new miniatures from GW, total. Seven new models to add to my army, and Edge Miniatures gives me the possibility of ~10 sculpts per month or so, plus terrain, plus scenery and little bonus extras like captives and objective markers and combat drug tokens, none of which would ever be made by GW. I have multiple poses of Grotesques as opposed to the one finecrap one in an extremely distinctive and obvious pose that GW sells, I have female as well as male wracks and my male wracks can be in poses other than "standing/walking very slowly with arms limply at their sides". I have alternate beasts including a beastmaster riding a pterodactyl, more demonic looking mandrakes, massively distinctive (while still being recognizably a Talos) pain engines that actually reflect their lore as 'artisan creations of a mad genius designer". And speaking of, also, multiple alternate haemonculi that don't all look like exactly the same dude in exactly the same pose.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 15:06:56


Post by: Warpig1815


I think the_scotsman raises a valid point here.

I can understand GW's right to protect their IP, and I can also appreciate Overread's position that 3D design en-masse is tending towards lazy derivatives rather than original productions, which has the potential to stymie over-all creativity. But at the same time, this is not strictly a character deficiency of 3D modellers. Most of the IP's that are widely infringed upon, such as 40k or Star Wars, are copied because the scale of content is enormous. Taking 40k as the example, GW have laid out a galaxy stuffed to the gunnels with content - yet they choose to represent only a slim segment of it. And not just now - it is a historic trend that GWs lore has consistently out-paced their capacity to represent it in miniature form. Hence, whilst 3D designers have the potential to be lazy and make blatant copies of existing GW products, many others are stepping in to produce content that fans are desperate to own, but GW consistently refuses to produce.

For example, if I were to model and sell a Salamanders praetor in Cataphractii armour, it would likely be seen as an infringement of GW's IP. And it would be. But waiting for GW to release a Salamanders praetor could take an eternity. They simply aren't interested. For them, the investment into producing those moulds is not worth the return from the fewer number of fans Salamanders gain. So 3D modellers/printers step in to fill the gap.

Is it IP infringement? Certainly. Is it original? Certainly not. But that doesn't detract from the issue that it's a desired commodity.

And that's only touching upon IP's with support. Others, such as HALO, are similarly protected - but their miniatures production has utterly ceased. If I wanted a 32mm SPARTAN-II Team, my only option now is to pay ridiculous prices for a Halo: Ground Command set (Inflated well beyond it's original value), or to find/model a 3D Print. My other option is to simply suck it up and accept that because Spartan Games has gone out of production, I'm not allowed to enjoy Microsoft's IP (Outside of the video games).

Of course, none of that really 'solves' the issue of IP infringement. It's still infringement. But I don't feel that forcing 3D modellers to produce original works is strictly conducive to that community continuing to exist. Especially because many 3D modellers produce derivative works because it's what they're initially interested in. Moreover, from a financial point of view, it's easy to say 'base your business on original works' - but if nobody wants to buy your models because there's no implicit tie-in to lore which they have grown to enjoy, they're less likely to buy your model. Nobody is going to buy my generic M1 Abrams hover tank if it doesn't fit into 40k, Star Wars, HALO, Infinity, etc. etc.

So derivative works are created, because the modeller/printer can be confident that their initial investment is not going to founder on creating yet another ambiguous sci-fi tank that doesn't aesthetically fit into any established fandom, and has nothing to differentiate itself from a hundred other designs. And it's unlikely that 3D modellers en-masse are also all writers par excellence, capable of also creating a compelling universe in which to set their designs.

So again, I can appreciate both sides of the argument, but demanding originality doesn't appear (to me at least) to be sustainable for the community.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 18:03:48


Post by: Monkeysloth


 the_scotsman wrote:
as much as I like the idea of more original designs winning out, I would miss it if all gw-copycat stuff was removed because there is some ridiculously fun, creative alternative armies out there that are still clearly aping gw but giving you something you can't buy from GW.



I'm in the minority on this board as I don't play GW games. It's only been in the past year or so that GW dominance has really annoyed me as so many interesting Paterons just shift over to chasing the GW dollar, if they're not doing D&D stuff, and it gets a bit frustrating. I get why they do it. Money is nice.

Since I don't play GW games and don't really run D&D games (do lots of RPGs, just not high fantasy that much anymore) I'm finding less and less on Pateron that I feel is worth backing. And even though it costs me more per model I find waiting for sales on MMF and just picking up one or two things to be cheaper overall then just subscribing for a deal even though I have no interest in 90% of the releases.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 19:13:58


Post by: Sarouan


Still, there is something that is common from backers : a lot of them buy with some potential use in game in mind, be it D&D or Warhammer. How many are purely doing it for just painting ? Even collection or buying them "just in case" tends to be linked with games.

Pure original work isn't selling as much as you'd like it to be, that's what I see. While some people would like to buy something that some well known company doesn't already sell, it's always with a game setting in mind most of the time - be it a female goblin paladin or a sister of battle with a unique pose.

That's why I totally understand GW protecting their IP, but I also get 3D sculptors trying to appeal to a market audience that is known for being bigger than others or even backers wanting to have cheap W40k proxies that are also visually appealing to them.

In the end, money rules all and no one is clean or better than the other. It's all about personnal interests.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 19:40:21


Post by: Overread


I do agree having a "use" for models helps drive sales and copying GW works easily to meet both needs.

I'd just rather see someone take an army - like Stormcast - and use them purely as a construction base. So using the models rough volume (height); base size and core properties (eg mage, ranged, close combat - varied weapons etc....) and then going wild with something that might look nothing like a stormcast.

BUT that you could put on the table and play as a stormcast army.

At least that's at the extreme end of artistic freedom.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 19:47:02


Post by: chaos0xomega


Thats also, unfortunately, overwhelmingly not whats occurring on the market, and not really what seems to sell.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 19:48:43


Post by: Overread


chaos0xomega wrote:
Thats also, unfortunately, overwhelmingly not whats occurring on the market, and not really what seems to sell.


Aye, but I think we will start to see it. There's only so much room for recreating the same core designs GW does and in the end not everyone wants to even make marines 101 all the time. Even those currently doing marines and other stand-ins are likely going to experiment branching out and doing stuff of their own and such.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 20:11:45


Post by: PondaNagura


Moreover, from a financial point of view, it's easy to say 'base your business on original works' - but if nobody wants to buy your models because there's no implicit tie-in to lore which they have grown to enjoy, they're less likely to buy your model. Nobody is going to buy my generic M1 Abrams hover tank if it doesn't fit into 40k, Star Wars, HALO, Infinity, etc. etc.


But that's true of any business regardless of the sector you work in.
Sinking time into sculpting copies, proxies/alternatives, spinoff or fully original IP is a gamble all around financially speaking. No 3D sculptor/game designer, regardless of skill level and passion are guaranteed a living from doing this. This is a luxury good sector after all. It's a dream job, and in some cases works out for certain individuals or teams; but it's the similar financial risks involved for self-start cupcake bakeries and investing in tulip farms.

But I don't feel that forcing 3D modelers to produce original works is strictly conducive to that community continuing to exist. Especially because many 3D modelers produce derivative works because it's what they're initially interested in.

As mentioned earlier, there's certainly still ample room for derivative work based within the IPs, that aren't just copied parts, like new different non-SM themes, or factions without formal rules. Or alternatives to flying metal box tanks.
There seems to be growing oldhammer communities too, people who want to play in older editions/styles or homebrew updates where there def weren't models for every unit/weapon option.

But we also need more originality for the community to keep going, otherwise we get into the tailspin of copycats copying copycats and underselling each other versus actual growth. Then what's the point?
I could be wrong, but I think the community is reaching saturation for world war space trenchers...at least for that one particular aesthetic style of the genre.

There was allegedly a time when there was no D&D, or PP or GW products. And then there were; because someone took a financial gamble on creating something that wasn't the same historical battle game/miniatures ad infinitum.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 20:18:49


Post by: Warpig1815


@Overread - While that's an admirable ideal, as you point out - it's an extreme ideal. The reality is that most people don't want to play not-Stormcast with Stormcast rules. What they want is almost Stormcast, with Stormcast rules. You see this all the time in the Forgeworld News and Rumours thread. Forgeworld releases a model, and the majority of the comments are not dichotomies of 'I hate it!' and 'I love it!'. Instead, you get, 'It's good, but I'd love it with...' or, 'I wish they'd just done....'.

My point here is that this market has popped up because 3D modeling offers the ability to take an 'almost there' design, and make it exactly what the community wanted without moving away from the original appeal. And hence the hot water - it's almost GW, because the community want GW, but just not quite like that. That's why all proxy armies are unlikely to be a thing - because GW's ideas have immense resonance, but will never satisfy everyone. You'll never eradicate the source of these infringements, because you'd literally have to strip away a portion of what it means to be human. No piece of art has ever been 'original' - it's all adaptation until we get right back to imitating nature.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 20:27:53


Post by: Monkeysloth


Sarouan wrote:
Still, there is something that is common from backers : a lot of them buy with some potential use in game in mind, be it D&D or Warhammer. How many are purely doing it for just painting ? Even collection or buying them "just in case" tends to be linked with games.

Pure original work isn't selling as much as you'd like it to be, that's what I see. While some people would like to buy something that some well known company doesn't already sell, it's always with a game setting in mind most of the time - be it a female goblin paladin or a sister of battle with a unique pose.

That's why I totally understand GW protecting their IP, but I also get 3D sculptors trying to appeal to a market audience that is known for being bigger than others or even backers wanting to have cheap W40k proxies that are also visually appealing to them.

In the end, money rules all and no one is clean or better than the other. It's all about personnal interests.


The market for those that buy STLs for just painting purposes are the same % that buy regular models/busts/75mm stuff for just painting. Small fraction of the market but I do see enough busts and larger scale figures for painting STLs on sale that there's some market for it just like boutique brands can put out resin kits.

But outside of that signal digit (or low double digit) percent that does paint thing just for display the rest of us want another use. My issue is the things I want STLs for aren't popular enough generally to support a lot of creators and they tend to find that if they add enough grimdark in they triple their subscriber base. Or, in the case of my love of Shadowrun, just not enough market for that genra mixing.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 20:30:54


Post by: Warpig1815


PondaNagura wrote:
Moreover, from a financial point of view, it's easy to say 'base your business on original works' - but if nobody wants to buy your models because there's no implicit tie-in to lore which they have grown to enjoy, they're less likely to buy your model. Nobody is going to buy my generic M1 Abrams hover tank if it doesn't fit into 40k, Star Wars, HALO, Infinity, etc. etc.


But that's true of any business regardless of the sector you work in.
Sinking time into sculpting copies, proxies/alternatives, spinoff or fully original IP is a gamble all around financially speaking. No 3D sculptor/game designer, regardless of skill level and passion are guaranteed a living from doing this. This is a luxury good sector after all. It's a dream job, and in some cases works out for certain individuals or teams; but it's the similar financial risks involved for self-start cupcake bakeries and investing in tulip farms.


I certainly agree. It is a risk all businesses take. The thrust of my point was not that I encourage this, but that I understand why derivative works arise. They're gambles, but mitigated gambles. The risk of failure is higher when attempting something totally out of the box. And yes, this is a 'luxury' market - but once upon a time so was having dyed clothes. Just because a business is currently a 'luxury' or niche market, does not mean it cannot assume a core component of the economy or society. It's only a question of cultural emphasis.

=PondaNagura]
But I don't feel that forcing 3D modelers to produce original works is strictly conducive to that community continuing to exist. Especially because many 3D modelers produce derivative works because it's what they're initially interested in.

As mentioned earlier, there's certainly still ample room for derivative work based within the IPs, that aren't just copied parts, like new different non-SM themes, or factions without formal rules. Or alternatives to flying metal box tanks.
There seems to be growing oldhammer communities too, people who want to play in older editions/styles or homebrew updates where there def weren't models for every unit/weapon option.

But we also need more originality for the community to keep going, otherwise we get into the tailspin of copycats copying copycats and underselling each other versus actual growth. Then what's the point?
I could be wrong, but I think the community is reaching saturation for world war space trenchers...at least for that one particular aesthetic style of the genre.

There was allegedly a time when there was no D&D, or PP or GW products. And then there were; because someone took a financial gamble on creating something that wasn't the same historical battle game/miniatures ad infinitum.


Of course, I also agree. There's room for a gamut of almost-there designs. I'm suggesting that forcing TOTAL originality is an extreme that is also unconducive to encouraging the growth of the 3D modelling community. We need a balance of space to grow, but security to initate ourselves into the environment by producing designs which are desired. But certainly, there is a flood of the same types of designs - but you always need to acknowledge that perhaps the reason you percieve it as a flood is because it doesn't interest YOU. THat's not an accusation, but it's subjective. I too am bored of 'not-WW1' Sci-fi designs. But for a die-hard WW1-in-Space fan, perhaps there is not enough. Supply and demand rule the economy.

Also - D&D and GW did take the gamble. But it wasn't unprecedented - the popularity of Tolkein in the period both arose was, and still is, MASSIVE. And Tolkein was massive, because LotR drew on folklore and mythology which is culturally hardwired into his audience. Tolkein succeeded because in the era he was writing, a cultural renaissance placed significant emphasis on harking back to Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Brythonic tales. So even his gamble in publishing wasn't unprecedented.




GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 21:12:05


Post by: Overread


I actually think the 3D print market iwll grow the art bust/painting segment of the market significantly.

Because a lot of those models are bigger than 28-32mm which puts a LOT of people who are average painters off. Even those who are very keen painters still have to budget carefully when those models, in resin, can cost hundreds.

3D printing is MUCH cheaper for them on a per model basis and it also lets them have a degree of room to experiment. If it doens't work they can "print another". Which is fantastic when the models would normally be super expensive; and when many are limited production runs.

When you've dragon 1 of only 50 ever made and you've spent £300 on it you REALLY won't want to risk spoiling it.




So I can see 3D printing really enabling that market; both for those who buy printed models from merchants (not a huge disparity in price, but slightly cheaper in general and often not limited runs at the very least); and those printing at home on their own.

Sure the printed still costs and most won't want to waste them either, but it really opens that market up a lot more.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/12 21:21:50


Post by: Warpig1815


+1 for that Overread. I've started learning 3D modelling and buy/print from vendors precisely because they offer me models which are in franchises I like, but aren't limited to wargaming load-outs or omitted for gameplay balance reasons. Hence my above comments on the 'almost-but-not-quite' aspect of 3D designs. There is a tendency for gamers to assume that because many of these minis come with a game system, that is the sole reason anyone could be interested in them. Hence, it devolves into an open-shut case of protecting the game IP or dismantling GW's hegemony. There's no middle ground for people who like the general idea of a model, but want something slightly different (and, of course, legally there can't be a free clause for middle-ground modellers).



GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/14 13:06:50


Post by: Ketara


A brief update from Orc King:-

Unfortunately due to a confusion in our products by Patreon and a company that complained about intellectual property the Orc King Space War patreon is suspended. We have tired of sending emails to Patreon and especially of deleting everything they ask of us, but their unwillingness to help us correct this situation has led us to consider this project lost.


From what I've heard through the grapevine elsewhere, Games Workshop has basically blanked Orc King's attempts to do what Dark Gods and everyone else did (aka tweak sculpts until GW leaves them alone). As far as they're concerned, anything and everything he does is infringing and his 'Space War' line needs to go out of business now.

This looks inconsistent at first until you realise that Orc King did what very few other Patreon owners (or none, really) have ever done. He literally made a like for like identical copy of one of their models. And GW's response to that has been to effectively burn his house down and give him none of the dialogue/give and take they seem to indulge in with other creators over his other sculpts (whether legally tenable or not).

There's a very clear message being sent there. Tread on our toes that much, and we'll salt the godamm earth with you. Which, in all fairness, is actually not unreasonable.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/14 13:35:28


Post by: Overread


A few of Dark Gods designs were very much nearly copies and I've seen a few others that were exceptionally close, but don't appear to have had the same treatment.


This might purely be a case where negotiations fell apart. If he was constantly having to "take things down that they ask of us" perhaps Orc King wasn't sending things to GW for approval first (either because they didn't want too or because they and GW had a vastly different interpretation of what was and wasn't ok). So it turned into a continual battleground.


Certainly GW is under no obligation to allow or work with independent creators, so if there are those causing problems or not playing ball the right way - and we have to accept that sometimes culture/language barriers might be a part of that - then they will just keep issuing copyright claims where appropriate.


It's a shame to see things like that happen, but as you say if the two parties can't come to mediation in the middle then GW does have the upper hand when their IP and its likeness is being used.



I've never bought any of his stuff but I've seen it around and he's got some neat designs. Hopefully his OK patreon remains viable


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/14 13:37:08


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Ketara wrote:
Which, in all fairness, is actually not unreasonable.


Yes it is.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/14 13:41:28


Post by: Overread


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
Which, in all fairness, is actually not unreasonable.


Yes it is.


If his creations are infringing on GW's designs then its not. In the end its just GW doing what any firm would do - protecting their system.
GW don't have to mediate, they've chosen to do so likely because its actually easier and cheaper for them in the long run - its much cheaper and simpler to have creators approach you for approval than it is to let them put stuff up, start selling it and then you have to find them and challenge them. It's also cheaper because it generates less bad-will from the community (community support costs) and less angry emails.


But if GW and a creator can't come to agreeable negotiation or terms it might well be that they end up just having to keep issuing CD takedowns if a designer is continually not coming to them for approval and is fundamentally at odds with copyright with their style and approach to models.


Note that the choice to take the patreon down was the creators, neither patreon nor GW actually issued a formal "take this whole thing down". Their actions have forced it down of course, but there was still the option for the creator to keep it open, they'd just have had to have found a design style that wasn't going to keep pinging takedown requests.



Again part of this could simply be cultural/language barriers. Or even just GW not being fast enough in replies to queries and such.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/14 13:57:37


Post by: Gregor Samsa


There are some incredibly naive views of the function of litigation in the real world ITT

GW's 40k is itself a derivative Sci-Fi IP and they use their vast warchest to bully smaller creators with litigation. They consistently overreach beyond what even courts have found to be reasonable (such as attempting to copyright "space marine" and even bringing a lawsuit up regarding it).

Some small creators absolutely do infringe on GW copyright. The vast majority do not. GW is attempting to paint with a wide brush to maintain their market dominance.

This is bad for consumers.



GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/14 14:03:24


Post by: Overread


Everything created is derivative of something else. That's how a lot of creations just are.


GW were indeed more foolish with regard to IP and copyright in the past, the Space Marine situation and Chapterhouse were disasters and in part because GW's head of legal for copyright wasn't even trained in that field let alone experienced. Ergo he was fine writing stern letters but not equipped to actually defend in court nor to make proper evaluations.

Right now, from what I've seen, GW is behaving more logically and within the boundaries that are more likely to side with them if things went to court.
That doesn't mean they are right every single time of course; nor that they could not be challenged. However they appear more willing to work through things in general and appear to be being more specific with their targeting.




Market dominance is an odd one to throw in here because in a sense the designers are also working within the bounds of GW Market Dominance by providing alternatives that work within the GW Ecosystem (and which are intended to be as such).
I've yet too or not really seen any evidence of GW going after 3D designers who are clearly working way outside of providing alternatives to GW models for GW games. Granted they have gone after those making busts, which you could argue is outside of GW's remit as they don't make them (and if they have they are super rare); but again its typically of GW copyright style content.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/14 14:09:08


Post by: Ketara


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
Which, in all fairness, is actually not unreasonable.


Yes it is.


It's one thing when Games Workshop comes after you for making something that works in their game system using publicly available concepts. It's another when you literally copy every facet of one of their sculpts. I'm hardly a GW fanboy, but come on.

Sure, Games Workshop should theoretically stop at just taking down that one sculpt. But I don't feel like you get to complain about being overly persecuted when you're literally doing the thing they're nailing you for. Shouting 'But I only killed one person' when you're getting sentenced for three murders might be technically correct, but it doesn't win you much sympathy in my eyes. He didn't just accidentally tread on their IP whilst dancing near the line, he walked right over it and jumped up and down laughing. And so they're driving him out of business. What did he expect?

They're making a very, very clear example of him.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/14 17:36:00


Post by: Psychopomp


Let's rephrase it to illustrate why it is unreasonable:

"You made something that is a direct copy of our work. You now cannot sell anything, including things that are not direct copies of our work."

Takedowns of actual duplication of protected IP are reasonable. The salted earth strategy of attempting to block ALL that creator's sculpts, whether infringing duplication or original but related, derivative works, is not.



GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/14 19:11:40


Post by: Ketara


 Psychopomp wrote:
Let's rephrase it to illustrate why it is unreasonable:

"You made something that is a direct copy of our work. You now cannot sell anything, including things that are not direct copies of our work."

Takedowns of actual duplication of protected IP are reasonable. The salted earth strategy of attempting to block ALL that creator's sculpts, whether infringing duplication or original but related, derivative works, is not.



If you randomly and without cause kick the crap out of someone's younger brother, they may well choose to do the same to you next time you meet them down a dark alleyway. It might not be legal, but it's still going to happen and nobody is going to feel sorry for you just because they're bigger than you.

I'm aware the two aren't exactable translatable occurrences, but the point I'm making with the analogy (before people start questioning the difference in ethical seriousness, or role of law, or whatever nitpicking irrelevancy they fancy focusing on today) is that nasty actions often have consequences in the real world. In this particular instance, Orc King actually directly pirated and sold/profited from a design (aka committed a crime against and at the expense of) made by a very large wealthy company. The result is that the very large wealthy company in question may now choose to use that size and wealth to make life difficult for the pirate in ways unrelated to that initial crime.

Hate to say it, but that's life, and my sympathy is limited. It might not necessarily be legal, and some higher plane zen interpretation of morality would probably look down on it, but that's sort of how things work in the real world. If you don't want to risk the other party coming for you, don't commit the crime in question. They're not abducting his children as insurance after all, they're just waggling their eyebrows threateningly to stop other websites from hosting him. What they're doing is actually LESS illegal than what this guy did to them in the first place. He could still escalate if he wanted to do so (aka open his own website to sell from and up the ante).

Instead, he's choosing to grumble and walk away. Which was probably the smart move. He took a risk, tried to kiss someone's metaphorical girlfriend uninvitedly out of nowhere, and got caught by their partner. Now that partner's landed him a metaphorical shiner and told him not to come within eyesight of their girl in future or he'll get beaten up. So he'll have to walk home by a different road in future or risk starting another confrontation. Too bad, so sad.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/14 19:22:52


Post by: PondaNagura


It also matters how the works are derivative.
As mentioned earlier on D&D and GW used Tolkien as a basis for their early IP.
Tolkien estate took D&D creators to task and made them change certain trademark terms D&D had no right to use; but then the estate also pulled a chapterhouse prequel trying to argue "dragon" wasn't public domain iirc Regardless the outcome forces hobbits to become halfings and gnomes, ents to be treants, and make future editions go past just tolkien copycat and dip into the deeper roots of public domain folklore to explore ideas for supplements and creatures.
The hobby/game is probably better for it.
GW actually had a license to make LotR content in the 80s. (Likely) the same artists/sculptors worked on early WHFB/40k orks,which is why they are very visually similar to the LotR content (if anything that explains the no balrog wings on bloodthrister conversions, the in the 2000's agreement). Making art and models from written text is transformative work. To my knowledge JRRT never had proper concept sketches for any of his creations, they were all adapted to those media by artists much later.
40k's warp space has monsters trope and psyker burnout is derivative of "The Game of Rat and Dragon" short story, only GW decided that the monsters at held at bay by forcefields, and gothic elements of protection like wards, faith and gargoyles; and not
Spoiler:
>25yr old young psychics partnered with house cats in psychically propelled football space pods, shooting light bombs at FTL monsters. No, really that's the plot. meow

We can all make derivatives from the same source material so long as we aren't using direct copies of physical media, like art and models that's distinct (and therefore copyrightable), or trademarked words. It's why we can make another space soldiers fighting space 'bugs', so long as it's not called Starship Troopers, Aliens, Starcraft, etc; we can also make extra things fit into those visual narratives, there's wiggle room in using the "style" of a thing, as style is not copyrightable. But it would take a longer post to break down specifics of what is and isn't under that umbrella, and even then it sometimes does come down to court decisions to determine that.

Like the presentation of GW's limited edition catachan character as an homage to Carl Weather's "Predator" character, aesthetically derivative...unless someone paints him with different skin tone and uniform. Then derivative nature becomes less obvious, if outright erased.

This is not to say GW doesn't get Tolkien-estatesque and try to overreach what is and isn't in their IP domain.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/14 20:03:56


Post by: Overread


 Psychopomp wrote:
Let's rephrase it to illustrate why it is unreasonable:

"You made something that is a direct copy of our work. You now cannot sell anything, including things that are not direct copies of our work."

Takedowns of actual duplication of protected IP are reasonable. The salted earth strategy of attempting to block ALL that creator's sculpts, whether infringing duplication or original but related, derivative works, is not.



We should note that GW didn't salt the earth - they simply issues take downs for what they felt required take downs. That the communication between them and the creator had fallen apart means that it sounds like the creator was too close - in GW's view - but wasn't willing or unable to back down without serious work and redesign. So they were getting more and more take down statments from GW/Patreon as a result.

It doesn't sound like GW shut everything down - their other Patreon is running fine. It just means that project was simply not workable because it infringed too much at the core of the designs.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/15 01:28:28


Post by: Fluid_Fox


Double yikes.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/15 06:07:43


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


Maybe I should grab some Saurian STLs before GW goes after them. They're much nicer than GW's Saurus. Don't have a 3D printer though, lol.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/15 08:56:51


Post by: Overread


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Maybe I should grab some Saurian STLs before GW goes after them. They're much nicer than GW's Saurus. Don't have a 3D printer though, lol.



I was collecting STLs 6 months before owning a printer
Granted I was just after one designer at the time, but yeah sometimes you can grab stuff early. There's a few good lizard campaigns out there and patreon backing can get you a lot of them in advance of owning a printer before they go up in price as they go on general sale. If you're interested drop me a pm as I've been casually collecting a bunch of lizardmen ones


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/15 10:15:49


Post by: Paradigm


If you're talking about the OnePageRules Saurians, I think they're safe, they changed a couple of weapons/poses a while ago which I assume was on GW's request, so I'd imagine the rest are 'approved'... Aztec themes on lizardpeople is, like ghosts with weapons, surely too broad/generic a thing for them to have too much sway over.

Archvillain games also have some up this month that should definitely be safe, they're much more towards dino-people than regular GW lizards.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/15 15:20:11


Post by: celebrandas


 Overread wrote:
I do agree having a "use" for models helps drive sales and copying GW works easily to meet both needs.

I'd just rather see someone take an army - like Stormcast - and use them purely as a construction base. So using the models rough volume (height); base size and core properties (eg mage, ranged, close combat - varied weapons etc....) and then going wild with something that might look nothing like a stormcast.

BUT that you could put on the table and play as a stormcast army.

At least that's at the extreme end of artistic freedom.


Interestingly enough, someone did this. They made a "knight builder" inspired by dark souls armors that has proxies for almost all the basic Stormcast infantry. There's even a bike-riding model to proxy the mounted units. The only thing missing are wings for the flying units, but you can kitbash that with some effort. No monsters or hero characters yet, but I think those are coming eventually.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/15 15:24:27


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Ketara wrote:
A brief update from Orc King:-

Unfortunately due to a confusion in our products by Patreon and a company that complained about intellectual property the Orc King Space War patreon is suspended. We have tired of sending emails to Patreon and especially of deleting everything they ask of us, but their unwillingness to help us correct this situation has led us to consider this project lost.


From what I've heard through the grapevine elsewhere, Games Workshop has basically blanked Orc King's attempts to do what Dark Gods and everyone else did (aka tweak sculpts until GW leaves them alone). As far as they're concerned, anything and everything he does is infringing and his 'Space War' line needs to go out of business now.

This looks inconsistent at first until you realise that Orc King did what very few other Patreon owners (or none, really) have ever done. He literally made a like for like identical copy of one of their models. And GW's response to that has been to effectively burn his house down and give him none of the dialogue/give and take they seem to indulge in with other creators over his other sculpts (whether legally tenable or not).

There's a very clear message being sent there. Tread on our toes that much, and we'll salt the godamm earth with you. Which, in all fairness, is actually not unreasonable.


I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion here. GW has nothing to do with Orc King not being able to get their patreon back online, this is purely a patreon issue. You will note Orc King did not say they were communicating with GW, only that they were communicating with Patreon.

If you go back and look at Dark Gods and others who got hit but were able to get back online, they mostly all have two things in common:

1. They all communicated directly with GW legal to resolve the problem points.
2. They were all on Kickstarter or non-Patreon platforms.

By law, Patreon and other platforms are liable for IP infringement on their platforms and as such have a legal obligation to enforce copyright and IP. In practical terms this means that they do nothing until they receive a strike/takedown notice, at which point they will shut the offending content down entirely, even if the takedown strike is specific about the problem only being one specific photo, etc. Kickstarter, Patreon, etc are not subject matter experts, they don't know an ork from an orc from an orruk, nor can/will they differentiate those from an ogfe, goblin, or even a Necron, so they play it safe and go for the maximalist interpretation of the offense, which is to clamp down on everything.

From experience, Kickstarter is willing to provide details such as who provided them notice and a copy of the notice itself, etc so creators can attempt to work out the problems directly with the IP holder. To some extent Kickstsrter also communicates with both parties to coordinate stuff and ensure issues are resolved to the satisfaction of all parties before re-platforming the offendibg campaign. This is why Dark Gods were able to reach out to GW and fix the problems and continue the project on kickstarter.

From the sounds of it, in Orc Kings case the problem is either:

1. Patreon is not as communicative and cooperative as kickstarter and others are and did not provide Orc King with a copy of the notice or relevant contact info (Orc King only says "a company" instead of GW, which leads me to believe that Orc King doesn't know for sure that GW is behind it) and isn't willing to be the niddleman between Orc King a d GW to resolve the issues or expose itself to risk by allowing the campaign to continue, etc

or

2. Patreon did provide Orc King the details and Orc King hasn't figured out that it needs to be in contact with GW directly to resolve the issues because Patreon isnt going to know or understand the specific details of the complaint or how to properly resolve them and that sort of resolution can only come from direct communication amd coordination between the infringing party and the complaining party.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/15 15:36:20


Post by: Ketara


chaos0xomega wrote:


I think you're drawing the wrong conclusion here. GW has nothing to do with Orc King not being able to get their patreon back online, this is purely a patreon issue. You will note Orc King did not say they were communicating with GW, only that they were communicating with Patreon.


I appreciate that you've written an extensive post here, but you're missing the crucial fact that similar issues have arisen through Patreon many times. The classic recent case would be 3DArtGuy and his various GW-centric sculpts, but there have been others. In all of those cases, much as with Kickstarter, it's simply been a case of tweaking or removing certain items and GW removes their objection/C&D.

The Kickstarter cases were unusual because they were part of a wider recent pattern of GW throwing out C&D's for stuff that they had previously been willing to let slide in the resin market. In other words, they're now treating the 3D market in a slightly more authoritarian and more legally questionable fashion (albeit inconsistently). The reason for this shift in attitude is unknown (or arguably imagined to some - the joy of opinion).

Orc King's patreon simply got squashed. No tweaking, no discussion, no dialogue. I'm reading elsewhere (so caveat emptor as always with backchannel chat) that this is because GW issued Patreon with a blanket C&D for the patreon, and unlike in case of people like 3DArtGuy, simply aren't willing to let him make tweaks and keep the rest. They consider his whole line to infringe, period, no discussion, feedback, or room for negotiation. They don't want to talk about it or work with him. They just want the patreon gone. So after trying to talk to GW, trying to discuss a compromise, trying to plead with Patreon; it's all come to nothing for Orcking and the channel remains closed.

The reason for this shift in attitude (because most of the Space War range infringes no more or less than lots of stuff) is debatable, but it seems likely to be down his active piracy of their recent limited edition Assassin model that GW is using to promote Warhammer +. That's a line none of those other patreons stepped across.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/15 16:00:29


Post by: Overread


Another point is that he got that model out before GW have released theirs. In a sense that's a huge bug for GW even way back in the Chapterhouse days. It's why we have the whole "no models no rules" aspect to codex/battletomes now.

It's one thing to make counts as and stand ins; its another to copy GW's design and bring it to market before GW even have theirs in the market.




And yep 3DArtGuy and others who run Patreons have negotiated/been approached by GW.

That said GW are free to not negotiate if they feel that its not in their interests. They don't have to work with someone if they don't want too.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/15 16:29:18


Post by: PondaNagura


"Unfortunately due to a confusion in our products by Patreon and a company that complained about intellectual property the Orc King Space War patreon is suspended. "
This phrasing is to feign ignorance. They know well which company complained, and Patreon has communication procedures in place for things like this, in this case they knowingly violated the Authenticity clause in the guidelines:
As a creator, you may not post creations that infringe on others’ intellectual property rights.

Continuing Space Wars, particularly after the Sniper-sob-head post, is a liability to Patreon. If they're smart, OK won't try pushing anything GW-ish on their more generic content page, at least as blatant. I think they had some meso-american primaris sculpts in process, if they just stuck to conversion bits they should be fine.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/16 09:21:55


Post by: Slipspace


It definitely looks like a case of Orc King taking things too far by outright copying a not-yet-released limited edition model and GW deciding to take the nuclear option because of that. Other sculptors have had a more open dialogue with GW - I think this thread has details of the not-Eldar KS and the not-Nighthaunt Patreons - so it seems GW is willing to work with some producers but there's a line somewhere between "compatible with" and "outright copy".

All these sculptors should know they're operating in a grey area in many cases, with the mechanisms for enforcing IP law not on their side. That makes the decision by Orc King much more of a self-inflicted injury to me compared to some of the other examples ITT.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/24 13:03:06


Post by: Ketara


Red Pilgrim Miniatures is in trouble.

Hello everyone. That day has come, after all someone (we roughly know who) threw a strike on my page on patreon now it is blocked. A letter to support has been sent, let's see what they have to say. And what the result of this whole story will be. Most likely, it will be disappointing. Yes, my miniatures have a visual resemblance to GW products, but if you look at it, there is no direct borrowing. The armor and weapons is similar, but made differently, there are no chaptee marks that are under copyright on the soldiers. Well, if they not count as such a Maltese cross or a skull. I'm not even talking about generic infantry like the Desert Hawks. In general, the news is disappointing, I don't know what to do next. And if everything is more or less clear with the infantry (I'll go to myminifactory and cults with them), then there will be problems with an alternative to space marines, as far as I know they are banned there too. Judging by the story with DuncanShadow and his Eldar titan, everything is very strict and totalitarian there too. Perhaps it makes sense to create a website and sell STL models already there, but this takes time. On the other hand, I want to once again thank my patrons and just the people who supported me and my work. Regardless of how it ends - thank you very much. Hold the line! And I send my ardent greetings to GW. There are from a man who has led Bretons, Black Templars and Abaddon's Black Legion into battle for almost 20 years, and who has brought GW a gigantic mountain of money over the years.


Also, DMG Minis is reactivating, and says that even though he's been left alone, GW is going after his merchants (which is a bit strange).


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/24 13:48:27


Post by: Overread


 Ketara wrote:

Also, DMG Minis is reactivating, and says that even though he's been left alone, GW is going after his merchants (which is a bit strange).



I think some of this is because of key-words the merchants sometimes use to advertise their products.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/24 14:16:13


Post by: Nurglitch


It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/24 14:53:14


Post by: kodos


looked up what Red Pilgrim Miniatures is about

well, at least some weapons are 1:1 copies from GW and even if the Marines are not direct copies but just using similar elements, most of them having the direct copy of a GW Bolter

but shops are still selling the printed models from his designs, so if his patreon is shut down, not much difference for those who want his models


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/24 15:57:35


Post by: PondaNagura


Did DMG get a takedown notice or did they just voluntarily pause operations for a few months? I don't back them so I can't read their posts.
I guess the logic for going after the merchants could be people making personal prints of proxies probably wouldn't buy your product directly anyways, where as merchants are selling goods in direct competition to GW?... Granted, said merchants may have been selling other prints that were the true reason for take down. That is if they were just selling DMG stuff and got taken down; yeah, that'd be weird, but don't they usually back multiple artists?


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/24 16:06:31


Post by: Ketara


 kodos wrote:
looked up what Red Pilgrim Miniatures is about

well, at least some weapons are 1:1 copies from GW and even if the Marines are not direct copies but just using similar elements, most of them having the direct copy of a GW Bolter

but shops are still selling the printed models from his designs, so if his patreon is shut down, not much difference for those who want his models


The bloke who runs it used to spend his time making sculpts for the resin third party industry and other companies. Heresylabs, wargameexclusive, etc. Given that he hasn't changed his style or output really and his stuff for them is still on sale, it lends further credence to GW treating print differently to resin.

Frankly, at this stage, I'm not sure it qualifies as news anymore and may stop posting updates. It's pretty clear (in my mind at least), that there's been a re-adjustment in GW policy to tighten the screw on the print market moreso than they do the resin one. I also think (though YMMV) that frankly, it's stepped across that line that was drawn back after Chapterhouse. A fair amount of what they're going for is really public domain, no matter how much it might be usable in Warhammer games.

I just hope that they don't get emboldened by this and widen the scope of their attack back out to the third party resin companies again. If we end up back in 2010, the hobby will be poorer for it.



GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/24 16:26:14


Post by: kodos


the Heresy Lab Marines I know off are based on 2nd Edi and Boardgames Artwork and and not very like the Primaris Marines, neither in weapons nor general design

and of course it is easier to shut down a patraeon or YT channel than a stand alone shop


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/24 17:10:38


Post by: Overread


I really hope we don't end up back at the Chapterhouse situation on either side as well. I don't think the hobby market benefits from it in any way. Heck no side really walked away with a solid win from Chapterhouse Court Case.


I do think moving forward that 3D printing designers and GW do need to move more together on certain fronts.


As for GW I suspect one reason they might be more aggressive with 3d printing is purely because cast models have a limit on how much of the market they can serve and deliver too. They can only expand so far before they hit limits of practical production and supply. 3D printing isn't "as" constrained by the same barriers; merchants can more freely start up to overcome production shortfall and even though 3D printers are no where near common; they are on a steady increase in ownership in the consumer market.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/24 18:33:24


Post by: kodos


 Overread wrote:
I do think moving forward that 3D printing designers and GW do need to move more together on certain fronts.
no chance for that
a lot of the designers make their living from being as close to original GW models as possible instead of making something original

even if GW will add into the 3D printing buisness, no need for 3rd party designer to make what they already have

there is a bigger change that GW hires ArtelW and make his Eldar line the official models


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/24 20:27:48


Post by: Gregor Samsa


GW misplayed things in their forecasting. I don't think they accounted for the way in which consumer grade resin printers would be able to compete with the output quality of a modelling studio in the business for 30 years. At the same time they doubled down on in-house manufacturing, sinking loads of cash into facilities in nottingham.

The runway for them making that investment back is far away. While I don't think 3d printing really threatens them that much in the short term, but its psychologically unnerving the mere fact that consumer resin printing has caught up to professional manufacturing in short order. And those at GW who look at things in a big picture lens are likely quite alarmed by the fact that an organisation that just invested many millions in a particular manufacturing process that is rapidly being challenged by innovative technology.



GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/25 07:57:03


Post by: Slipspace


I was unfamiliar with Red Pilgrim so went to check them out. Frankly, I don't think they can have much complaint. Their models are using so many directly copied elements from the Space Marine line, from small elements all over the armour right up to entire weapons and iconography, it'd be almost impossible for someone without a good knowledge of the official GW SM line to distinguish the two lines from one another. If you're going to base your business on selling stuff clearly meant to be used in 40k you need to be a bit more subtle and, dare I say it, creative about it.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/25 15:08:05


Post by: chaos0xomega


Yeah, after looking up Red Pilgrims stuff, the majority of it is a direct rip of GWs stuff (and not in the "we're on the right side of the Chapterhouse lawsuit" kind of way) can't say I feel bad about it. He definitely had sculpts that were enough of a step back from that to stand on their own, but that doesn't seem to have been his main focus.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/26 10:53:51


Post by: Ketara


And hello once again to everyone. As you can see, I have been unblocked. For this, a rather high price had to be paid - the removal of all the heroes, which at least somehow resemble the Space Marines. And, yes, it was the DMCA claim from GW, officially. Their next strike will most likely lead to the final closure of my page, this was also said quite officially. During these days, you sent me a lot of links on how to deal with this, but all this was beyond me alone, and it was easier to delete the indicated miniatures. Anyone who did not manage to download anything (and there were a lot of them), write to me (or to my friend Jeka, who helped me with the discord) here: https://discord.gg/8VmTaCnA or on FB: https://www.facebook.com/redpilgrims/. There will also be news on all issues that cannot be discussed on the Patreon site.
Due to all this running around and the sanctions imposed on the page, the promised space warrior hero is canceled, in place of it there will be an August release with Desert Hawks. It will be on the very last day of the month, but don't worry, all links will be active and available in September.

Well, once again I want to thank everyone who has supported me all this time. There were a LOT of kind words and advices, so many that I could not answer all of them personally. This is really great to know, that I'm not alone at this battlefield. Thank you friends! I will end with the phrase of one French military marshal of the WWI times, who just learned that his son died at the front: we will continue, gentlemen.


To all those saying tha this stuff was a step too far, it's funny how companies like Wargame Exclusive, Artel, or Tortuga and more get away with the exact same level of duplication with no problem. From the same artist nonetheless as well (because he used to sculpt this sort of stuff for them). One would think that if Games Workshop had a legal case that solid, they'd be C&Ding all those companies too.

Eh, I'm just a broken record at this point.

I do find it interesting that their price was 'remove anything that even remotely looks like a Space Marine and never touch the theme again or we'll sink you' rather than 'these one or two which feel like they infringe on point A&B'. That's definitely market control right there, nothing to do with legality.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/26 11:19:27


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Ketara wrote:
And hello once again to everyone. As you can see, I have been unblocked. For this, a rather high price had to be paid - the removal of all the heroes, which at least somehow resemble the Space Marines. And, yes, it was the DMCA claim from GW, officially. Their next strike will most likely lead to the final closure of my page, this was also said quite officially. During these days, you sent me a lot of links on how to deal with this, but all this was beyond me alone, and it was easier to delete the indicated miniatures. Anyone who did not manage to download anything (and there were a lot of them), write to me (or to my friend Jeka, who helped me with the discord) here: https://discord.gg/8VmTaCnA or on FB: https://www.facebook.com/redpilgrims/. There will also be news on all issues that cannot be discussed on the Patreon site.
Due to all this running around and the sanctions imposed on the page, the promised space warrior hero is canceled, in place of it there will be an August release with Desert Hawks. It will be on the very last day of the month, but don't worry, all links will be active and available in September.

Well, once again I want to thank everyone who has supported me all this time. There were a LOT of kind words and advices, so many that I could not answer all of them personally. This is really great to know, that I'm not alone at this battlefield. Thank you friends! I will end with the phrase of one French military marshal of the WWI times, who just learned that his son died at the front: we will continue, gentlemen.


To all those saying tha this stuff was a step too far, it's funny how companies like Wargame Exclusive, Artel, or Tortuga and more get away with the exact same level of duplication with no problem. From the same artist nonetheless as well (because he used to sculpt this sort of stuff for them). One would think that if Games Workshop had a legal case that solid, they'd be C&Ding all those companies too.

Eh, I'm just a broken record at this point.

I do find it interesting that their price was 'remove anything that even remotely looks like a Space Marine and never touch the theme again or we'll sink you' rather than 'these one or two which feel like they infringe on point A&B'. That's definitely market control right there, nothing to do with legality.


Striking Artel (Russia), Tortuga (Ukraine), and Wargame Exclusive (Ukraine, though their eBay store seems to be based out of Costa Rica) is a lot harder, IP protections outside of the EU are significantly weaker and the authorities much less likely to care. Patreon, Kickstarter, and other US/EU based platforms on the other hand are obligated to enforce IP laws, so anyone based in these territories using those platforms is subject to content removal, etc.

Even still, as far as Artel W is concerned, GW did force removal of something like half their catalog 2-3 years back.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/26 11:30:36


Post by: Ketara


chaos0xomega wrote:


Striking Artel (Russia), Tortuga (Ukraine), and Wargame Exclusive (Ukraine, though their eBay store seems to be based out of Costa Rica) is a lot harder, IP protections outside of the EU are significantly weaker and the authorities much less likely to care. Patreon, Kickstarter, and other US/EU based platforms on the other hand are obligated to enforce IP laws, so anyone based in these territories using those platforms is subject to content removal, etc.

Even still, as far as Artel W is concerned, GW did force removal of something like half their catalog 2-3 years back.


That's a good point (although the fact they managed a removal of stuff from Artel W sort of undermines it - because it says they do have some legal power there). I suppose one could put together the argument (as you seem to be implying) that the only real difference is GW's ability to legally reach people; but the problem that runs into is that there are actually plenty of Patreons even still doing the exact same thing as Red Pilgrim who haven't had the metaphorical Black Spot yet. Laser Forge Miniatures Techmarines, ThatEvilOne's Emperors Children, Helforged Miniatures, and so forth.

That continued inconsistency is what keeps adding evidence to my mind that this is about print and market control rather actual IP - which is reinforced by the way they keep going about these different actions. Not only are resin and print treated differently, things are treated differently even within the print market to a degree. I suppose it could just be corporate schizophrenia though. Never underestimate the ability of large companies to be dumb as hell at times.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/26 12:41:28


Post by: Slipspace


It's just as likely they simply haven't got around to doing anything about some of those creators yet. I'm not familiar enough with that part of the industry to say who the biggest players are but maybe they're just working their way down a list, possibly with some sort of sign-off required by GW corporate for each C&D, instead of just a mass-mailing out to everyone at once.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/26 12:53:25


Post by: beast_gts


Wargame Exclusive said a few years ago that they talk to GW to see where the line is - they took down some shoulder pads and other bits IIRC. I'll see if I can find that post.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/26 13:01:45


Post by: kodos


 Ketara wrote:
That's a good point (although the fact they managed a removal of stuff from Artel W sort of undermines it - because it says they do have some legal power there)
GW cannot get on Artel W banned, but they prevent him importing stuff to EU. Same way as you cannot shut down those people producing Nike shoes, but Nike can prevent that those are sold in EU/US

But to do this you need a strong claim on copyright (eg recasts)

While to shut down a Patreon (or Youtube Channel), they just need to be similar enough

and for why others are not already down, might be that GW does not know about them for now, or they are just doing one by one and not all at once


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/26 13:14:17


Post by: chaos0xomega


Or, like Slipspace said, they just haven't got around to people yet. I would imagine they are working through them in some order based on an intersection of their similarity to GWs product and the size (or perceived size) of the operation. A no-name patreon with 5 subs is much less likely to get hit than a patreon with 5000 subs, etc.

Also keep in mind that GWs legal department is apparently not very large, and these people aren't necessarily fans of the game or even all that familiar with the product line. They might look right on past some things that they don't immediately recognize as being imitations due to a lack of familiarity with the product. On top of that, some of these operations are a bit more savvy in their marketing, etc. Tortuga for example isn't as well known as Artel W and is a bit more creative with naming and keywords to avoid getting direct traffic from warhammer related search terms, etc. Unless GWs lawyers spend time scouring facebook groups, dakka, and other social media sources looking for leads Tortuga might not even be on their radar. More likely GWs lawyers are googling and search patreon/kickstarter for somewhat generic GW related search terms to see what comes up and going after stuff on that basis.

And that assumes that they are searching at all - I think a lot of their action comes from people submitting tips/leads via email, either competitors trying to sink others by bringing them to GWs attention or white knight fans that are doing GWs enforcement for them. I have encountered both types of people, personally.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/26 14:05:28


Post by: Ketara


Slipspace wrote:
It's just as likely they simply haven't got around to doing anything about some of those creators yet. I'm not familiar enough with that part of the industry to say who the biggest players are but maybe they're just working their way down a list, possibly with some sort of sign-off required by GW corporate for each C&D, instead of just a mass-mailing out to everyone at once.


If that's the case, than doubtless we'll see at least another ten patreons hit that I'm immediately aware of, followed by several third party bitz companies. Given that the resin ones have been around for yonks though, I doubt they're going to suddenly being getting C&D's in the mail.

Chaos0xomega wrote:Also keep in mind that GWs legal department is apparently not very large, and these people aren't necessarily fans of the game or even all that familiar with the product line. They might look right on past some things that they don't immediately recognize as being imitations due to a lack of familiarity with the product. On top of that, some of these operations are a bit more savvy in their marketing, etc. Tortuga for example isn't as well known as Artel W and is a bit more creative with naming and keywords to avoid getting direct traffic from warhammer related search terms, etc. Unless GWs lawyers spend time scouring facebook groups, dakka, and other social media sources looking for leads Tortuga might not even be on their radar. More likely GWs lawyers are googling and search patreon/kickstarter for somewhat generic GW related search terms to see what comes up and going after stuff on that basis.


Funnily enough, we did actually see that in Chapterhouse - pages from Dakka got pulled and submitted as evidence. So talking about how they missed Tortuga may well, in fact, now point them that way.

But this actually largely feeds into what I said about corporate schizophrenia. Left arm media-savvy intern not knowing what right arm full-time lawyer is doing or even headcase Board member who issues executive fatwa based on a feeling from an old model they saw back in the '90s and a Facebook post. Big companies are not always well-organised! So far, all I think can be asserted as fact is that independent resin-casting wargames companies seem to get more artistic leeway in line with the law, and less C&D's than vulnerable print design only companies based on Patreon/Kickstarter. I doubt we'll ever really know the reason behind all the inconsistencies beyond that level.

Heck, it could be a mishmash of everything we've all said combined! (Captain Planet style). Perhaps GW Legal collectively go a bit further over what's legal with print because they think they can get away with it, but each person in the legal department has their own individual line across which they issue C&D's, and none of them are really paying that much attention!


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/26 14:06:16


Post by: the_scotsman


 Gregor Samsa wrote:
GW misplayed things in their forecasting. I don't think they accounted for the way in which consumer grade resin printers would be able to compete with the output quality of a modelling studio in the business for 30 years. At the same time they doubled down on in-house manufacturing, sinking loads of cash into facilities in nottingham.

The runway for them making that investment back is far away. While I don't think 3d printing really threatens them that much in the short term, but its psychologically unnerving the mere fact that consumer resin printing has caught up to professional manufacturing in short order. And those at GW who look at things in a big picture lens are likely quite alarmed by the fact that an organisation that just invested many millions in a particular manufacturing process that is rapidly being challenged by innovative technology.



I also think there's something of a massive boom with the launch of the photon mono (and subsequent super-sale of the old models of photon) right in the middle of a global pandemic where every tabletop wargamer suddenly had oodles of time sitting around indoors plus lump sums of stimulus money plus no way to keep up the feedback loop of going into GW shops+buying GW products+playing GW games.

the reason 3d printing is being cracked down on is suddenly 3d printing seems like a much more legitimate threat.

I know literally like 20-odd people who suddenly got into resin printing during quarantine, myself included, among a group of maybe 50 active tabletop gamers I know.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/26 15:49:33


Post by: Theophony


 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.


It's a Real Pity that people try to push the boundaries so close and use terminology even we armchair quarterbacks know will draw GW's Ire to try and sell their stuff. I'm all for third part works and people doing similar items, but many of these are trying to skirt under the radar and crying when they get called out for it. If they want to ride the coat tails of GW, then they shouldn't be confused or baffled when GW yanks the free ride out from under them.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/26 15:55:29


Post by: PondaNagura


 Theophony wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.


It's a Real Pity that people try to push the boundaries so close and use terminology even we armchair quarterbacks know will draw GW's Ire to try and sell their stuff. I'm all for third part works and people doing similar items, but many of these are trying to skirt under the radar and crying when they get called out for it. If they want to ride the coat tails of GW, then they shouldn't be confused or baffled when GW yanks the free ride out from under them.


Oh, I took Nurglitch's post to mean "it's a pity non-GW stuff/original content doesn't sell as well as proxy market does," but maybe I read that wrong.

edit: and yeah, I think it may be a matter of when not if yet-to-be notified artists get a note from GW legal. There are some that have been around for years I only find out about in the last month. There's a brouhaha in one of the warhammer prints subs because a giant database of proxy files got DCMAd, now the mods are trying to work out if/how some of the content can be made available again ( I believe content that's been on thingiverse, not paid stuff).
edit 3: they just took the group into private mode, no more casually browsing without invite I guess.

edit 2: ahh, my bad, I think I misinterpreted the tone of the reply. i shouldn't come on here when I'm tired


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/26 16:39:23


Post by: kodos


well, we have lost a lot of files in the last year

not only free 3D printer files, but also most of the papercraft files are gone (all the good ones)


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/27 13:03:03


Post by: lord_blackfang


 kodos wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
That's a good point (although the fact they managed a removal of stuff from Artel W sort of undermines it - because it says they do have some legal power there)
GW cannot get on Artel W banned, but they prevent him importing stuff to EU. Same way as you cannot shut down those people producing Nike shoes, but Nike can prevent that those are sold in EU/US


This seems completely unenforcible. It would require customs officials to recognize IP infringing Space Marines on sight.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/27 13:22:31


Post by: Nurglitch


 PondaNagura wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.


It's a Real Pity that people try to push the boundaries so close and use terminology even we armchair quarterbacks know will draw GW's Ire to try and sell their stuff. I'm all for third part works and people doing similar items, but many of these are trying to skirt under the radar and crying when they get called out for it. If they want to ride the coat tails of GW, then they shouldn't be confused or baffled when GW yanks the free ride out from under them.


Oh, I took Nurglitch's post to mean "it's a pity non-GW stuff/original content doesn't sell as well as proxy market does," but maybe I read that wrong.

@PondaNagura: You read that correctly.

Theophony isn't wrong though, as there's certainly more incentive to "skirt under the radar" than there is to produce original work.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/08/27 13:37:37


Post by: lord_blackfang


Yeah even before 3D printing, in the resin model days, I caught myself always having one of two reactions to a new line:
1) lame, it's just a 40k ripoff
2) nice, but I can't use this in 40k

There's been some lines recently that are their own thing but also clear 40k proxies that fit the aesthetic, like Maker Cult's dark mechanicum and feudal guard lines.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/09/01 05:13:14


Post by: Vulcan


 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.


That would require a large market BUYING non-GW stuff.

No point in being in business making what doesn't sell.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/09/01 06:13:23


Post by: Albertorius


 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.


That's only partially true, I think, as there are lots of designers that don't do GW stuff (like, for example, Artisan Guild) that are doing very well for themselves.

...of course, that usually mean D&D proxies.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/09/01 07:39:41


Post by: Vulcan


 Albertorius wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.


That's only partially true, I think, as there are lots of designers that don't do GW stuff (like, for example, Artisan Guild) that are doing very well for themselves.

...of course, that usually mean D&D proxies.


Hasbro seems way less sue-happy than GW.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/09/01 08:01:26


Post by: Albertorius


 Vulcan wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.


That's only partially true, I think, as there are lots of designers that don't do GW stuff (like, for example, Artisan Guild) that are doing very well for themselves.

...of course, that usually mean D&D proxies.


Hasbro seems way less sue-happy than GW.


Also, generic fantasy is generic.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/09/01 08:08:59


Post by: Flinty


You need to watch out around dragons though, or Anne McCaffery will be after you


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/09/01 13:35:42


Post by: the_scotsman


 Nurglitch wrote:
 PondaNagura wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.


It's a Real Pity that people try to push the boundaries so close and use terminology even we armchair quarterbacks know will draw GW's Ire to try and sell their stuff. I'm all for third part works and people doing similar items, but many of these are trying to skirt under the radar and crying when they get called out for it. If they want to ride the coat tails of GW, then they shouldn't be confused or baffled when GW yanks the free ride out from under them.


Oh, I took Nurglitch's post to mean "it's a pity non-GW stuff/original content doesn't sell as well as proxy market does," but maybe I read that wrong.

@PondaNagura: You read that correctly.

Theophony isn't wrong though, as there's certainly more incentive to "skirt under the radar" than there is to produce original work.


People like expanding on a concept that hasn't really been explored by its original author, so sue them. Fanfic is a big thing for a reason. GW's made like 2 very slightly different sculpts in 23 years based on the idea of "heavily armored space elf with a crazy web gun and a spider theme who moves by flickering in and out of portals" I really have nothing against someone who reads the description, looks at the execution and finds it lacking, and feels like they could produce a really cool concept that matches the image in their heads better.

After all, it's not like your game concept is 100% all-original never-been-done-before-ever, I'm guessing you went out to create a game that captures the images in your head of kaiju/mecha combat based on media you've consumed. Creativity builds off others' ideas, it's nothing new.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/09/01 15:24:12


Post by: Albertorius


Nothing is original.

But some things are trademarkable.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/09/01 18:39:48


Post by: Nurglitch


 the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Nurglitch wrote:
 PondaNagura wrote:
 Theophony wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.


It's a Real Pity that people try to push the boundaries so close and use terminology even we armchair quarterbacks know will draw GW's Ire to try and sell their stuff. I'm all for third part works and people doing similar items, but many of these are trying to skirt under the radar and crying when they get called out for it. If they want to ride the coat tails of GW, then they shouldn't be confused or baffled when GW yanks the free ride out from under them.


Oh, I took Nurglitch's post to mean "it's a pity non-GW stuff/original content doesn't sell as well as proxy market does," but maybe I read that wrong.

@PondaNagura: You read that correctly.

Theophony isn't wrong though, as there's certainly more incentive to "skirt under the radar" than there is to produce original work.


People like expanding on a concept that hasn't really been explored by its original author, so sue them. Fanfic is a big thing for a reason. GW's made like 2 very slightly different sculpts in 23 years based on the idea of "heavily armored space elf with a crazy web gun and a spider theme who moves by flickering in and out of portals" I really have nothing against someone who reads the description, looks at the execution and finds it lacking, and feels like they could produce a really cool concept that matches the image in their heads better.

After all, it's not like your game concept is 100% all-original never-been-done-before-ever, I'm guessing you went out to create a game that captures the images in your head of kaiju/mecha combat based on media you've consumed. Creativity builds off others' ideas, it's nothing new.

It's funny you should say that, because my game started off as a second edition of Adeptus Titanicus (1989), literally ripping off GW, on the basis of my intense love for Dan Abnett's novel Titanicus. Certain parts of it still barely have the 'Property of James Workshop' filed off. A decade of development means it's taken on a life of its own though, and seeing the direction GW took with Adeptus Titanicus (2018) is really interesting.

But, as you say, there's nothing 100% all-original. What's interesting is how GW managed to mash up a bunch of tropes, and add time and development to create something so desirable to so many people. It's less a matter of copying GW than success mapping to how closely you copy them, with the closer being the better. There's other factors, like their own directly owned shops, in-house production, economies of scale, and so on (which is why I think would-be Warhammer alternates keeping being created and failing), but it's amazing how well it tracks in terms of widgets (models, etc).

Now that I think about it, I think stuff like the media side of GW (Black Library, White Dwarf, now Warhammer+) help to drive demand, so naturally they're going to drive demand towards their own products, and that demand is going to overflow what GW provides, whether it is in price, weirdly specific niche stuff like Warp Spiders, etc.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/09/01 18:42:28


Post by: Malika2


Hmm, I think we're now entering the part of the debate in which it's quite obvious that everything is influenced by something else. You might wanna check this out if you have some 37 minutes to spare:




GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/09/01 18:58:06


Post by: Nurglitch


I think it's less interesting to argue about what a [insert GW product here] is and who 'invented' them than it is to discuss what it is about GW's [insert GW product here] people want that 3rd parties are willing to risk provision.

Edit: I'll add, maybe GW should hand out licenses for miniatures like they hand them out for video games. Have you seen the crap that makes money wrapped in Star Wars or Marvel licensing?


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/09/24 11:26:07


Post by: HeroesFall


To me, I think it speaks volumes, and those volumes are full of disappointment, that the third party models in many cases look better than those made by the behemoth that is GW. How much money have they made and yet many of their models are massively dated. They'll come out with new codexes every year but there are almost entire army rosters that haven't had an update aesthetically in forever.

I think protecting your IP is important, but if they are worried about losing business maybe they should step up their game with their models. Beyond the ridiculous prices for many of the kits, I wouldn't be looking elsewhere if the models - beastmen as an example- weren't so lackluster and horrible.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/02 19:51:47


Post by: jeff white


Reading this thread, I am certain to spend less money on gw products and to most actively source third party minis going forward. Just, awful. Gw could be a beacon… now a pariah imho. And expanding their hiring of people whose sole job is to police such ip infringement. Yeah… I am no longer a fan, not of this corporation.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/13 21:26:52


Post by: Bayonet&Ricochet


 jeff white wrote:
Reading this thread, I am certain to spend less money on gw products and to most actively source third party minis going forward. Just, awful. Gw could be a beacon… now a pariah imho. And expanding their hiring of people whose sole job is to police such ip infringement. Yeah… I am no longer a fan, not of this corporation.


I don't disagree with their business practices of going after copyright infringement. To a certain extent. When it's clearly reaching it's obviously immoral for them to strike people that are clearly not infringing on their property. I would like to note that the majority of copyright claims GW I have seen made are reasonable infringements on their copy righted works. And I'm not a huge fan of the entitlement surrounding copyright infringement, and the community at large supporting it simply because GW is a corporation. Some producers get excessively close to the line where it's questionable or outright is copyright infringement and the community defends it. We have laws for a reason. But there are some specific examples of it being over reach. So Yes GW kind of sucks. And I will never buy one of their products again, like many other people I know.

I also loathe everything else they have done and lack of morality, and possibly breaking the laws with unreasonable allegedly unlawful NDAs and such. How they've treated creators online such as youtube and their recent pandering, tokenism, and ideological leanings. "Warhammer is for everyone" Except if you disagree or believe in diversity of ideas, over collectivist rhetoric.
GW is likely just trying to soak every ounce of profit they can squeeze before they sell the company, or it collapses. I can't imagine current events have made it easy for them to maintain making and shipping physical products.

I will vote with my wallet on this one. I will never buy a GW product again. I won't buy a Wizards of the Cost product again either. And I stick to my guns. There are sooo many other options to get miniatures to paint or play with.

Saga.

Bolt Action

A bunch of really cool samurai games

Frost Grave and Stargrave

One Page Rules tho I much rather play complex rules. But just knowing other options exist it's great.

GW yes has the lore and cool miniatures. But as soon as they started making games for everyone and dumbing down the rules making it less complex and more infantile I stopped playing games and switched to painting. The reason I used to love 40k and Fantasy was that it was trying to mimic the complexity of a battlefield, and not just a glorified card game with miniatures that just happen to be there. That combined with them starting attacking the fans I stopped buying models to paint, stopped buying paint from them.

I now exclusively use other brands. Like P3 and vallejo paints. GW lost the plot. So much so that It inspired me to make my own games. If I really want to paint GW models I can strip my old armies and repaint. It's not hard. But I have zero interest in playing an infantile version of the 40k / Fantasy that I grew up with.

And I will rather take a punch in the gut than support GW moving forward, Because of their attitude towards fans.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nurglitch wrote:
I think it's less interesting to argue about what a [insert GW product here] is and who 'invented' them than it is to discuss what it is about GW's [insert GW product here] people want that 3rd parties are willing to risk provision.

Edit: I'll add, maybe GW should hand out licenses for miniatures like they hand them out for video games. Have you seen the crap that makes money wrapped in Star Wars or Marvel licensing?


This isn't a bad idea.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/14 06:19:24


Post by: Albertorius


I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say for sure what's considered copyright infringement and what's not... but let's remember the Battletech case and that it has been dismissed with prejudice.

So these, for example, are not copyright infringement:

Spoiler:







GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/14 12:18:37


Post by: Bayonet&Ricochet


 Albertorius wrote:
I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say for sure what's considered copyright infringement and what's not... but let's remember the Battletech case and that it has been dismissed with prejudice.

So these, for example, are not copyright infringement:

Spoiler:







I would say it really depends on the judge/court/law etc and what country you're in. I would argue the above four images are copyright infringement or intellectual property theft, or even trademark infringement. There is a case to be made here..

If the judges throw out case it can be appealed.

But what a lot of people fail to ask is it Moral to steal the spirt of someone else design and call it your own? Are you not taking away from the creators ideas profits or sales? This is something we should be asking.

The Community is at large already fully or mostly in support of not offending people for any number of reasons. Is the idea of deliberately trying to profit off of someones ideas considered offensive? Should we ignore one version of offensive and care deeply about the other?

All I know is that small creators could end being the target of this kind of immoral behavior. Maybe it won't be today but it can happen.

Just because it's skirting what copyright infringement is, is it morally right to allow it to happen. I would say it's immoral. Do we justify being immoral because we think a company is immoral? I think that can lead to a slippery slope.

It's similar to the broken window syndrome. Person sees a broken window, and thinks hey this place is crap might as well break the other window. Another person comes along and sees the broken window and spray paints some profanity etc..

Should we encourage immoral behavior or defend creators that are clearly trying to skirt the law in order to profit off of others work? Questions we should be asking the community at large.

I have personally made my choice not to support GW again. But I don't think we should encourage theft, stealing ideas from others regardless if it's questionably legal or not. It's a difficult subject to really pin down.

Let's jut say someone make a samurai miniature or a cyber samurai mini or a steam punk samurai mini and they all are 28mm heroic scale and nearly identical looking armor with small variations? Are the creators trying to steal? Probably not Samurai are historical figures.

A space marine chaplain with skulls and power armor, vented back pack and 40k style iconography ... That's outright trying to steal. Even if it's protected under the law. So the question really boils down to morality?

Is it moral? Should we as a community continue to support it?






GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/14 12:26:36


Post by: Albertorius


Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say for sure what's considered copyright infringement and what's not... but let's remember the Battletech case and that it has been dismissed with prejudice.

So these, for example, are not copyright infringement:

Spoiler:







I would say it really depends on the judge/court/law etc and what country you're in. I would argue the above four images are copyright infringement or intellectual property theft, or even trademark infringement. There is a case to be made here..

If the judges throw out case it can be appealed.

I quoted those explicitly because they were involved in multiple years-long lawsuits, and after several appeals, the judges ended up ruling that it was not infringment, and repealed the lawsuit with prejudice, meaning the decision is completely final and no open to any further appeals or new lawsuits for related items.

For more information, just follow the link:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen

On March 1st 2017, Harmony Gold filed lawsuit against Catalyst Game Labs, Piranha Games Interactive, and Harebrained Schemes over the use of not only the four redesigned Unseen mechs, but also the Atlas and the Shadowhawk in the case of Harebrained Schemes' Battletech videogame. Catalyst Game Labs defaulted on the lawsuit, while the case against Harebrained Schemes over the Atlas, Shadowhawk, and Locust was dismissed with prejudice on April 9 2018. This still left the unseen mechs as part of the lawsuit that would still affect Catalyst Game Labs, Piranha Games Interactive, and Harebrained Schemes. After taking the copyright-trolling threats by Harmony Gold head-on, Piranha Games Interactive did not back down and in the end managed to have the case dismissed with prejudice and Harmony Gold agreeing to an undisclosed settlement that demonstratively allowed PGI, Catalyst Game Labs, and Harebrained Schemes to continue the use of the redesigned Unseen mechs. Harebrained Schemes would later re-introduce the redesigned Unseen mechs in the Heavy Metal expansion pack in 2019 and Catalyst Game Labs accompanied their public announcement about the case's dismissal with a large artwork of the redesigned Marauder by the artist Marco Mazzoni.


As to morality and copyright law themselves... well, it's complicated, but I've always found that the laws are supposed to help the little guy but always, without fail, end up helping the big corporate fish.

Ad when you have GW C&Ding small fish for skirting too near their stuff, but at the same time they release an IG mini thinly veiled cosplaying as a character from Predator, well...


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/14 12:46:22


Post by: Bayonet&Ricochet


 Albertorius wrote:
Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say for sure what's considered copyright infringement and what's not... but let's remember the Battletech case and that it has been dismissed with prejudice.

So these, for example, are not copyright infringement:

Spoiler:







I would say it really depends on the judge/court/law etc and what country you're in. I would argue the above four images are copyright infringement or intellectual property theft, or even trademark infringement. There is a case to be made here..

If the judges throw out case it can be appealed.

I quoted those explicitly because they were involved in multiple years-long lawsuits, and after several appeals, the judges ended up ruling that it was not infringment, and repealed the lawsuit with prejudice, meaning the decision is completely final and no open to any further appeals or new lawsuits for related items.

For more information, just follow the link:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen

On March 1st 2017, Harmony Gold filed lawsuit against Catalyst Game Labs, Piranha Games Interactive, and Harebrained Schemes over the use of not only the four redesigned Unseen mechs, but also the Atlas and the Shadowhawk in the case of Harebrained Schemes' Battletech videogame. Catalyst Game Labs defaulted on the lawsuit, while the case against Harebrained Schemes over the Atlas, Shadowhawk, and Locust was dismissed with prejudice on April 9 2018. This still left the unseen mechs as part of the lawsuit that would still affect Catalyst Game Labs, Piranha Games Interactive, and Harebrained Schemes. After taking the copyright-trolling threats by Harmony Gold head-on, Piranha Games Interactive did not back down and in the end managed to have the case dismissed with prejudice and Harmony Gold agreeing to an undisclosed settlement that demonstratively allowed PGI, Catalyst Game Labs, and Harebrained Schemes to continue the use of the redesigned Unseen mechs. Harebrained Schemes would later re-introduce the redesigned Unseen mechs in the Heavy Metal expansion pack in 2019 and Catalyst Game Labs accompanied their public announcement about the case's dismissal with a large artwork of the redesigned Marauder by the artist Marco Mazzoni.


As to morality and copyright law themselves... well, it's complicated, but I've always found that the laws are supposed to help the little guy but always, without fail, end up helping the big corporate fish.

Ad when you have GW C&Ding small fish for skirting too near their stuff, but at the same time they release an IG mini thinly veiled cosplaying as a character from Predator, well...


It can't be argued that GW is a terrible company. But should that justify the community supporting idea theft, ripping them off? No. And for the same reason I would not like it a small independent creator being ripped off. It is still theft. And it is still Immoral. Regardless if it's barely legal.

That's for others to decide for themselves of course where the line is. But what happens when GW goes under? We justify allowing the little guys to be targeted? And as for laws always only helping the corperations, that's not always the case.

Are cooperation's inherently evil? No it depends on the company. Does it make it okay because GW is a crappy company? No GW has to employee people that made the choice of wanting to be there and may not be directly contributing to the companies board terrible ideas.

Losses in sales translate to job losses, pay cuts etc.

So I personally am not really a fan of the community's turning a blind eye to what is essentially trying to steal art. If we switch to a different medium like comics, or original characters there are a lot of people that get upset? Why are miniatures different? But that's my personal take on it.

Everyone is allowed to come up with their own ideas and thoughts.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/14 16:15:44


Post by: Nurglitch


I'm pretty interested in seeing what HG thought that the Atlas was ripping off.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/14 16:54:32


Post by: Albertorius


 Nurglitch wrote:
I'm pretty interested in seeing what HG thought that the Atlas was ripping off.


Their lawyers.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/16 09:07:44


Post by: Albertorius


Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:
Are corporations inherently evil? No it depends on the company. Does it make it okay because GW is a crappy company? No GW has to employee people that made the choice of wanting to be there and may not be directly contributing to the companies board terrible ideas.


They kinda are, actually. They are, quite literally, amoral artificail beings whose only god is the baseline. They will, and they have, literally do anything to that end, without any second mind to whatever other interest.

Sometime to that end they need to toe the line of some "good" goal. But most of the time, they don't.

The current flurry of C&Ds is the way the GW corporation has of saying, "oh, hey, that might hurt my baseline someday, let's kill it". Sometimes that is caused by stuff that skirts too much the line with their IP. Sometimes it isn't.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/16 09:55:25


Post by: lord_blackfang


So Cults3d seems to have been hit hard, the 40k tag went down to just 4 pages of results.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/16 10:38:49


Post by: Overread


In time people will learn that using GW terms can't be done and they will just steadily shift to consumer accepted alternate names.

It will likely take a while before there are generally agreed upon terms in use but "Sisters of Battle" might become "Battle Nuns" for example. Everyone will use the same listing; everyone will "know what it means" within the community (and will share the meaning with others) and it will be safe from GW's marketing so long as the sculpt isn't infringing.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/16 11:18:48


Post by: kodos


Battle Sisters is the non GW term for Adeptus Sororita

No excuse for those being stupid (or greedy) enough to use the original GW term to push sales


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/17 00:09:56


Post by: Ketara




 lord_blackfang wrote:
So Cults3d seems to have been hit hard, the 40k tag went down to just 4 pages of results.


The more bizare thing is how much they missed. So many of them are still up, if you know where to look. I spent an afternoon about a month ago scraping everything free and worthwhile I could find off Cults - it looks like that was a decent time investment after all. I may start purchasing models in bulk soon too - I doubt it'll be long before GW crushes what's left. 80% of it will spring back up again each time, but that always leaves 20% of it unobtainable going forwards.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/17 00:11:48


Post by: Bayonet&Ricochet


 Albertorius wrote:
Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:
Are corporations inherently evil? No it depends on the company. Does it make it okay because GW is a crappy company? No GW has to employee people that made the choice of wanting to be there and may not be directly contributing to the companies board terrible ideas.


They kinda are, actually. They are, quite literally, amoral artificail beings whose only god is the baseline. They will, and they have, literally do anything to that end, without any second mind to whatever other interest.

Sometime to that end they need to toe the line of some "good" goal. But most of the time, they don't.

The current flurry of C&Ds is the way the GW corporation has of saying, "oh, hey, that might hurt my baseline someday, let's kill it". Sometimes that is caused by stuff that skirts too much the line with their IP. Sometimes it isn't.



Is it okay if I bring up a counterpoint.. I hope you don't find it off-putting or a personal attack. It's simply a counterpoint. But I don't consider Telsa or Elon Musk to be evil. And there are many others of course.





GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/17 00:22:57


Post by: Ketara


 Overread wrote:
In time people will learn that using GW terms can't be done and they will just steadily shift to consumer accepted alternate names.

It will likely take a while before there are generally agreed upon terms in use but "Sisters of Battle" might become "Battle Nuns" for example. Everyone will use the same listing; everyone will "know what it means" within the community (and will share the meaning with others) and it will be safe from GW's marketing so long as the sculpt isn't infringing.


This has already happened. There are a handful of commonly used phrases that won't show up in a standard search, and most of them are still up, I believe.

It's a bit like fighting copyright on youtube. GW will stomp onto Cults once every month or two and remove a pile of files. Some will come back, some won't. But new ones will pop up in their place. The people sitting in the law office on Lenton Lane aren't paid enough or community savvy enough to get everything and hold it down indefinitely.

They also face the challenge now of dealing with communities which store files beyond their reach, like on Telegram. It's all very well and good to squash listings on websites which are legally reachable and sanctionable; it's another kettle of a fish altogether when dealing with encrypted international messaging services which don't give a damn how many lawyers you have.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/17 08:51:32


Post by: Overread


Aye, however if GW can keep a general lid on the casual areas of the net they will at least feel like new generations of gamers and new customers and potential customers aren't being led too far astray from the GW ecosystem.


Plus I think at some stage (and it might not actually be that long away) 3D Designers will shift away from 40K themes. At some stage the market will reach a saturation point and designers themselves will hit burn out points where they just don't want to make another marine; or where there are so many good options out there that, within the active 3D print market, they can't find a niche.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/17 09:25:51


Post by: Albertorius


Bayonet&Ricochet wrote:
Is it okay if I bring up a counterpoint.. I hope you don't find it off-putting or a personal attack. It's simply a counterpoint. But I don't consider Telsa or Elon Musk to be evil. And there are many others of course.

Yeah, no problem.

I'd argue that Telsa is more Elon Musk than Tesla, at this point in time... and even so, many of Elon Musk's personal beliefs I find appalingly bad, like his plan of making Mars a corpo state (not that Amazon isn't trying to do the very same here on Earth resurrecting the company towns).

But to each their own, I was actually coming from the current legal definition of a corporation being a singular being.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/17 10:44:34


Post by: Ketara


 Overread wrote:

Plus I think at some stage (and it might not actually be that long away) 3D Designers will shift away from 40K themes. At some stage the market will reach a saturation point and designers themselves will hit burn out points where they just don't want to make another marine; or where there are so many good options out there that, within the active 3D print market, they can't find a niche.


I hope so, for ages Print Minis did the only decent independent sci-fi out there. Now Loot studios has switched across too.



Don't get me wrong, I like my GW proxies as much as the next gamer, but it is nice to see something both original and competently executed.


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/17 11:07:29


Post by: Overread


Agreed!

However I think after that we need one more thing which is again slowly happening but hasn't caught steam just yet and that is universal rules.


Right now 40K and DnD are the big proxy target markets for many games. Outside of those niches models being made can have artistic and creative appeal*, however functionality for gamers is more niche. Not everyone doing alternate designs makes them compatible with the GW rules system (ergo the army is unique but modelled after the options and sizes for an existing army); and many other established games are much smaller.

GW is not really harmed by 3D printing at the large scale GW does business; but many of the smaller firms would be hard pressed to compete with an active 3D print industry. Indeed it might even force many to abandon notions of free rules systems and to fall back on them as a core profit point if they suddenly lose significant model income to the 3D print market (remembering that its not just those who own a 3D printer, merchants can make and sell printed models as well).


That said if a universal sci-fi rules system arose that you could easily drop almost any crafted army into and play and have, at the very least, fun - now that might be a powerful thing that could drive sales of creative 3D prints. Same for fantasy.

Space already has a Billion Suns that seems to be trying to fill that void. I could well see other areas arise as well; at least once we are past the "hump" of GW being the major target focus.

RPG games will also be a huge growth area as they are a perfect drop in anything system. Indeed its a market that cries out for unique and new designs for a new campaign and hasn't got the same burdens of building forces as a wargame does. A wargamer wants years of play out of one army; an RPG player is happy if their white dragon sees the board one or two evenings and might never again arise. Some might even buy, print, paint and have models on the shelf that never get seen because the campaign goes a different direction and they use something else.

The association, connection and such are different in the different markets.


*indeed I see the boutique painting market being grown significantly with 3D printing. Shifting it from super expensive designer models that cost £100s per model and are often limited production; into something that's much more accessible and has less limited runs because they sell the STL. Plus when you've STLs you can just "print another" so it might encourage far more to take up that area of model hobbying.

I know GW puts big stock in that being a core market for them, but at the same time I think AoS proved that even if people never game with their models (or only game outside of GW stores and clubs where GW can't monitor the data); the "potential" to play with them is a clear driver for many


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/17 13:59:32


Post by: Malika2


Here’s the thing though: everybody says they want a completely new universe, but no one is willing to buy it. So yah, it kinda works discouraging…


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/17 14:04:41


Post by: SlaveToDorkness


 Ketara wrote:
 Overread wrote:

Plus I think at some stage (and it might not actually be that long away) 3D Designers will shift away from 40K themes. At some stage the market will reach a saturation point and designers themselves will hit burn out points where they just don't want to make another marine; or where there are so many good options out there that, within the active 3D print market, they can't find a niche.


I hope so, for ages Print Minis did the only decent independent sci-fi out there. Now Loot studios has switched across too.



Don't get me wrong, I like my GW proxies as much as the next gamer, but it is nice to see something both original and competently executed.


And whose models are those?


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/17 15:47:44


Post by: Albertorius


 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
 Overread wrote:

Plus I think at some stage (and it might not actually be that long away) 3D Designers will shift away from 40K themes. At some stage the market will reach a saturation point and designers themselves will hit burn out points where they just don't want to make another marine; or where there are so many good options out there that, within the active 3D print market, they can't find a niche.


I hope so, for ages Print Minis did the only decent independent sci-fi out there. Now Loot studios has switched across too.



Don't get me wrong, I like my GW proxies as much as the next gamer, but it is nice to see something both original and competently executed.


And whose models are those?


https://www.loot-studios.com/


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/17 18:31:26


Post by: Platuan4th


 Vulcan wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
It's a pity people can't sell non-GW stuff.


That's only partially true, I think, as there are lots of designers that don't do GW stuff (like, for example, Artisan Guild) that are doing very well for themselves.

...of course, that usually mean D&D proxies.


Hasbro seems way less sue-happy than GW.


Why bother suing when you have the power to get the Chinese government to send police in force to shut down knock-off factories for you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll note that while the above is an actual thing that happened, the factory in question was producing exact copy knock offs. Hasbro is VERY aware of what's referred to as "Third Party Transformers"(a much closer analogy to what we're discussing in this thread) which are very much copies of their art designs with original sculpting and engineering and/or upgrade kits for official toys and have so far only gone as far as to ban them from sale at later BotCons(and even then only 2-3 years of the convention).

100% accurate depiction of those years:


GW crackdown on Warhammer Themed Modelling @ 2021/10/17 20:06:00


Post by: jeff white


 Albertorius wrote:

As to morality and copyright law themselves... well, it's complicated, but I've always found that the laws are supposed to help the little guy but always, without fail, end up helping the big corporate fish.

Ad when you have GW C&Ding small fish for skirting too near their stuff, but at the same time they release an IG mini thinly veiled cosplaying as a character from Predator, well...

Exactly.