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Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 10:14:05


Post by: dreadblade


I thought I'd start a thread to talk about the rumoured GK vs TS box.

Right now it looks like it will include the new Castellan Crowe and Infernal Master models, as well as a Dreadknight and a Tzaangor Shaman.

Details of the other units are less clear at the moment. I'm hoping for GK Terminators and Rubric Marines. It seems likely that we'll see more Tzaangors too given that there's going to be a Tzaangor Shaman.

Has anyone seen any further information or rumours?



Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 10:32:45


Post by: Flipsiders


Let's just put it out there: If the GKs don't get Primaris upgrades in this box, I have no idea why Games Workshop is releasing it.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 10:34:10


Post by: ImAGeek


 Flipsiders wrote:
Let's just put it out there: If the GKs don't get Primaris upgrades in this box, I have no idea why Games Workshop is releasing it.


To sell a bunch of old models off the back of a couple of new characters, like all these 2 army boxes.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 10:38:34


Post by: Billicus


 ImAGeek wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:
Let's just put it out there: If the GKs don't get Primaris upgrades in this box, I have no idea why Games Workshop is releasing it.


To sell a bunch of old models off the back of a couple of new characters, like all these 2 army boxes.


dingdingding, correct answer. However, as someone who still mostly prefers the old marines to primaris, and likes the new Crowe model, I'm pretty into it


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 10:44:58


Post by: dreadblade


The new Castellan Crow model certainly looks bigger, but it's not Primaris...



Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 10:58:42


Post by: Fayric


I think whatever they put in the box for k-sons, the players will already have plenty, because the range is so limited.
Exept for the new "another power armour wizard" covered in swirly gak.

Ofcourse, the infernal maste should be accompnied by actual daemons, but most likely we get more AoS beastmen. (and good riddance, most daemons are terrible units unless you play a friendly narrative game just for fun)

I guess its better than then putting Ahriman in the start collecting box though


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 11:00:35


Post by: jullevi


You may want to update topic title to something like "Fire and Magic - upcoming GK vs. TS boxed set discussion". I had to open the thread to know what this is about and I am sure I was not the only one.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 11:05:02


Post by: dreadblade


jullevi wrote:
You may want to update topic title to something like "Fire and Magic - upcoming GK vs. TS boxed set discussion". I had to open the thread to know what this is about and I am sure I was not the only one.


Done


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 11:38:35


Post by: Geifer


I may have have said it about that picture before in another thread, but I wouldn't feel happy using the new Crowe alongside the old Grey Knight models. I know it's far more likely this battle box is like most others and the only new models are the two characters, but if GW is determined to not give Grey Knights Primaris, they should still update the models to have better proportions like they did with Chaos Marines. Anything else is just sad. Plus Grey Knights infantry is made from only two boxes, so it's not even much of an investment compared to the model updates other armies got in the past two years.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 12:20:00


Post by: Shadow Walker


 Flipsiders wrote:
Let's just put it out there: If the GKs don't get Primaris upgrades in this box, I have no idea why Games Workshop is releasing it.
Maybe they will update GK models like Crowe's one? They do not need to be Primaris to look good. Just look at new CSM or Deathwatch.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 12:24:55


Post by: Albertorius


I like Crowe's new proportions. Apart from that, I like the old mini better.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 13:04:42


Post by: GoatboyBeta


 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:
Let's just put it out there: If the GKs don't get Primaris upgrades in this box, I have no idea why Games Workshop is releasing it.
Maybe they will update GK models like Crowe's one? They do not need to be Primaris to look good. Just look at new CSM or Deathwatch.


With the 30k rescale on the horizon I imagine GW will be going a similar route with the GK at some point.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/25 13:19:33


Post by: Billicus


Careful, we'll end up with intercessors with an upgrade sprue a la death company. Shudder


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 12:09:05


Post by: DaveC


Hexfire reveal

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/07/26/the-hexfire-battlebox-pits-grey-knights-might-against-thousand-sons-sorcery/

The Grey Knights, led by the head of the Purifier order, Castellan Crowe, contains two five-man squads of Grey Knights in power armour, plus a mighty Nemesis Dreadknight. The Grey Knights can be assembled as Purifiers, of course, or as a Strike Squad, Interceptor Squad, or heavy-weapon-toting Purgation Squad. Since there are two squads, you can even mix and match – it’s an incredibly versatile kit. Likewise, the Nemesis Dreadknight suit can also be worn by a Grand Master if you choose.

The other half of the box consists of the Infernal Master, along with five Scarab Occult Terminators, plus ten Tzaangors and a Tzaangor Shaman.




Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 12:10:53


Post by: Kanluwen



And the rumor of half new box, other half new character goes down!


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 12:25:45


Post by: jaredb


This is a really cool box set, and man that codex artwork is so nice. The 9th edition codex art is just a home run every time.

I think it's really cool there is crusade rules in the box, that's a nice touch when splitting the box with a buddy, play a little campaign with the dudes inside.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 12:35:56


Post by: Sterling191


It'll be interesting to see if this is GK/TS Crusade specific content lifted from their codex, or just rehashed core Crusade rules meant to make the box a campaign in a bottle.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 12:38:28


Post by: jaredb


Sterling191 wrote:
It'll be interesting to see if this is GK/TS Crusade specific content lifted from their codex, or just rehashed core Crusade rules meant to make the box a campaign in a bottle.


Based off the Article.

You’ll find datasheets for all the models in the box, of course, but also Crusade rules including campaign-specific Battle Scars, Relics, and Battle Traits. These are a cool way to show the lasting effects of the battle for Hexenfast.


Specific stuff for the setting.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 12:38:36


Post by: Crimson


The new character models seem to be on 40mm bases, and even without the tactical rocks are really large; primaris sized. The old GK models will look super derpy next to them.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 12:41:07


Post by: Kitane


Those old models look really bad. Is this going to be a second Blood of the Phoenix?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 12:53:09


Post by: TheBestBucketHead


It is kind of embarrassing for them to show these old models next to the new one.
I personally have a different reason to disliking it as well. I love Grey Knights as terminators, and putting their non terminator armor troops in there is disappointing for someone who wanted to start a grey knight army.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 13:02:37


Post by: wuestenfux


How about the price tag?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 13:03:58


Post by: Dudeface


 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
It is kind of embarrassing for them to show these old models next to the new one.
I personally have a different reason to disliking it as well. I love Grey Knights as terminators, and putting their non terminator armor troops in there is disappointing for someone who wanted to start a grey knight army.


I feel the same way towards the tsons, they're known for their sorcerers and rubric marines, so the termies and bird boys seems out of place. Then again like grey knights they have so few kits and with the start collecting existing they'll want to avoid too many duplicates.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 13:07:02


Post by: jaredb


Kitane wrote:
Those old models look really bad. Is this going to be a second Blood of the Phoenix?


Doubt it, Marines always sell well. Doesn't matter which kind. A few folks in my area already are talking about buying/splitting sets, something I never heard for Blood of the Phoenix (not many Aeldari players).


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 13:10:54


Post by: Kanluwen


 wuestenfux wrote:
How about the price tag?

We won't know until the week it gets announced for preorder.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 13:15:53


Post by: DaPino


I am entirely dissapointed in this box set.

Apparently Tzaangors are a more iconic unit than Rubric marines? Seeing how they got featured in 2 of our box sets while rubrics only got 1?

50% of the Thousand sons side is just... not thousand sons.

Just roll us up in the mainline CSM dex again so we can get rid of Tzaangors please.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 13:23:32


Post by: a_typical_hero


Was really hoping for that rumour that GK get everything new in the box to be true.

I'll get Crowe and wait until the rest gets a rescaling.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 13:23:51


Post by: Abaddon303


 jaredb wrote:
This is a really cool box set, and man that codex artwork is so nice. The 9th edition codex art is just a home run every time.

I think it's really cool there is crusade rules in the box, that's a nice touch when splitting the box with a buddy, play a little campaign with the dudes inside.


the covers of both codexes are awesome but the box art is pretty wonky imo...


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 14:03:38


Post by: Dryaktylus


DaPino wrote:
I am entirely dissapointed in this box set.

Apparently Tzaangors are a more iconic unit than Rubric marines? Seeing how they got featured in 2 of our box sets while rubrics only got 1?

50% of the Thousand sons side is just... not thousand sons.

Just roll us up in the mainline CSM dex again so we can get rid of Tzaangors please.


Tzaangors are older than Rubrics. In Realm of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned they were described as a warrior cast on the Planet of the Sorcerors used as guards and fighters for the TS.

While I understand people who don't want to use them, they should be part of the army list.

The really weak part of the box are the GK in PA.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 14:43:33


Post by: Shadow Walker


So runty GK are still there. Really GW, not even 1 box of them could be updated?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 14:50:49


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Well, on the bright side, even chance that bits sites will be flooded with cheap Grey Knights, Scarab Terminators and Tzaangors.

 wuestenfux wrote:
How about the price tag?
I'll be amazed if it's somehow more than Blood of the Phoenix.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 14:54:45


Post by: lord_blackfang


The Tzeentch half will have to be heavily discounted for me to pick one up. *yawn*


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 14:55:35


Post by: Sacredroach


Well, I'll probably get one as I have a Thousand Sons force, and that new Crowe figure is excellent. And I have yet to get my second box of Scarabs anyway...


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 14:57:50


Post by: TheBestBucketHead


I will probably get Crowe, as he is a good model, but I'm not interested in anything else on either side. Also, dreadknights look horrible, and I want them to be updated or deleted.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 15:00:27


Post by: Sersi


The characters and Thousand Sons models all look great; but the PA Grey Knights and Dread Knight are terrible in comparison. They really should have held Crowe back until they were ready to revamp the line. Honestly though I really dislike these split boxes, nearly every time one of the factions are an army I have no interest in playing.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 15:05:08


Post by: streetsamurai


Surprising that GW made a box like this filled with old marines. Seems like it will be a disaster


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 15:06:00


Post by: Manchild 1984


 Sacredroach wrote:
Well, I'll probably get one as I have a Thousand Sons force, and that new Crowe figure is excellent. And I have yet to get my second box of Scarabs anyway...


how do you know if you want to get more in the new codex?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 15:29:12


Post by: Valkyrie


When this was announced a while back my thoughts were "We'll get one generic character, if we're lucky a named character, and that's it." Seems to be correct so far.

Love the new Sorcerer but my expectations still aren't high.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 15:34:46


Post by: Blastaar


No rubrics. Baby carrier. Dumb.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 15:37:42


Post by: xeen


Unless you are starting a TS army from scratch (in which this is pretty good combined with the start collecting box) or maybe GK (I don't play them so not sure if this is a good set for them) this box is a total miss on both sides. Other than the two "new" characters I am sure the vast majority of TS and GK players already have multiples of the other units in the box (I know I do). This would have been a perfect time to update the GK infantry models (which this kit builds like 3 or 4 squads right?) update the knight (I don't think the kit currently includes a grand-master model right, so add that option), and add at least on more new Fast/Elite unit to TS (cause we don't have many in our book). I think this box is going to sell really well with scalpers, but I don't think a whole lot of players are going to be buying this unless there is a bunch of people waiting to start one or both of these armies. oh well, maybe in 3-4 years (lets face it neither of these factions are getting any more updates prior to their 10th codex or some PA non-sense with all factions getting updated) GW will produce some new models for the factions.

Hopefully the Codex rules will be good. May the blessings of Tzeentch be upon you.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 16:16:11


Post by: CMLR


 wuestenfux wrote:
How about the price tag?


Pretty sure all of the two armies boxes usually have the same pricing.

 streetsamurai wrote:
Surprising that GW made a box like this filled with old marines. Seems like it will be a disaster


You'd be surprised


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 16:19:29


Post by: dreadblade


I have to admit I'm a little disappointed that it's GK Marines and TS Terminators, not the other way round. I don't have any GK or TS yet though so I'm still interested.

It looks like the contents will be worth about £200 if bought separately, so I wonder what the price will be.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 16:20:09


Post by: Sasori


 dreadblade wrote:
I have to admit I'm a little disappointed that it's GK Marines and TS Terminators, not the other way round. I don't have any GK or TS yet though so I'm still interested.

It looks like the contents will be worth about £200 if bought separately, so I wonder what the price will be.


I think these have been going around 180$ USD so far.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 16:52:05


Post by: zanzibarthefirst


 Sasori wrote:
 dreadblade wrote:
I have to admit I'm a little disappointed that it's GK Marines and TS Terminators, not the other way round. I don't have any GK or TS yet though so I'm still interested.

It looks like the contents will be worth about £200 if bought separately, so I wonder what the price will be.


I think these have been going around 180$ USD so far.


They’re normally around £95 in real money though some have been more.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:14:23


Post by: Olgerth Istaarn


Resculpted Crowe makes the old GK with their box mags going everywhere look even more ridiculous. And then there's the Dreadpapoose to underscore the ridiculousness of it all.

Big oof. I was hoping the GK would get some resculpting action.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 18:52:39


Post by: Tyranid Horde


Are the tentacles terrain bits new or have we seen them before?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 19:04:02


Post by: MajorWesJanson


 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Are the tentacles terrain bits new or have we seen them before?


They look like custom for studio pics. Some look like parts from the mutalith, while others have bits of deathworld forest on the ends.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 19:16:18


Post by: dreadblade


Do you also get faction and warlord traits, relics and strats included in the rules with these battle boxes, or is it just datasheets?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 19:23:17


Post by: ERJAK


zanzibarthefirst wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
 dreadblade wrote:
I have to admit I'm a little disappointed that it's GK Marines and TS Terminators, not the other way round. I don't have any GK or TS yet though so I'm still interested.

It looks like the contents will be worth about £200 if bought separately, so I wonder what the price will be.


I think these have been going around 180$ USD so far.


They’re normally around £95 in real money though some have been more.


Do people still take disney dollars? I'd think they'd be a bit more wary about it after brexit.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 19:36:47


Post by: Daedalus81


Blastaar wrote:
No rubrics. Baby carrier. Dumb.


I'm all for more Scarabs. Those boys should be fire in the new dex. Here's to hoping Tzaangors find a better place, too.

Not sure I can sell off the GK side and I'm not keen on collecting them so maybe I'll pay up for the TS character instead.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 19:38:43


Post by: Valander


Mixed feelings on this one. I already have 2 squads of Scarabs, and not sure I need a 3rd. I also already have a Tzaangor Shaman (really don't see a need for 2nd) and a 10-man Tzaangor squad (mostly AOS but they do dual purpose; ok-ish with bulking them out), so there's a lot of "chaff" in the box for me. I do, of course, want the new hero...


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:17:40


Post by: Not Online!!!


Beyond the charachter for ts and the scarabs... This box just does nothing for me.

Tzangoors don't represent TS aswell as rubricae do, the Babycarrier was a bad Model since ever.

The lack of an GK Update is annoying in regards to the models.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:35:27


Post by: Voss


On the plus side, box + both books at the same time is two more factions crossed off the update list and we can move on.

At least the 'only one new model' releases are quick,


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 23:27:12


Post by: Billicus


I still like the existing GKs and have always been fine with the "baby carrier" (read: classic sci fi trope of a mech suit with a pilot suspended in the front of it) so I'm definitely up for this, and am kind of glad they're not getting primaris'd as it kind of invalidates your old army a bit and I genuinely don't like the primaris proportions


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/26 23:32:41


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Yeah but the 'baby carrier' could have been so much better. Look at one of the original pieces of artwork:



See how the Terminator isn't just hanging there. His legs, much like the new SoB Nundam suits, are integrated into the Dreadknight's legs?

I'm convinced that this would be a model everyone loves rather than one that gets constant ridicule 11 years since its release.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 00:07:01


Post by: chaos0xomega


Price point is probably $160, thats the traditional price point for these types of boxes though sometimes they go up a bit - theres not nearly as much content as Blood of the Phoenix to justify that type of pricing.

Box is a disappointment IMO, I usually buy 2 copies of these things but I might skip this one or try to split it for the 1kSons half. Even then, its not really what I would have wanted the 1K sons half to look like.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 00:40:19


Post by: CMLR


Everyday it passes I feel like I am the only one who actually likes the babycarrier...


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 01:06:12


Post by: Nicorex


I am just surprised that they are releasing a miniature (Infernal Master) that is supposed to be this great summoner of deamons but did not include a unit of deamons in the box. Hell one set of Screamers, would have been perfect.
Seriously, nothing on the Chaos side even has the deamon keyword. So why are the GreyKnights even there? Also the Chaos side loses the psykic battle with fewer psykers on the field giving the GK's more deny's.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 01:16:03


Post by: CMLR


 Nicorex wrote:
I am just surprised that they are releasing a miniature (Infernal Master) that is supposed to be this great summoner of deamons but did not include a unit of deamons in the box. Hell one set of Screamers, would have been perfect.


Technically, he is summoning screamers right now, you know.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 01:28:15


Post by: Nicorex


 CMLR wrote:
 Nicorex wrote:
I am just surprised that they are releasing a miniature (Infernal Master) that is supposed to be this great summoner of deamons but did not include a unit of deamons in the box. Hell one set of Screamers, would have been perfect.


Technically, he is summoning screamers right now, you know.


Which is why it would have been a great idea to have a unit of screamers in the box.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 01:30:56


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


 Nicorex wrote:
 CMLR wrote:
 Nicorex wrote:
I am just surprised that they are releasing a miniature (Infernal Master) that is supposed to be this great summoner of deamons but did not include a unit of deamons in the box. Hell one set of Screamers, would have been perfect.


Technically, he is summoning screamers right now, you know.


Which is why it would have been a great idea to have a unit of screamers in the box.


Makes me wonder what this means for daemon summoning in general.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 01:37:36


Post by: Arachnofiend


 Nicorex wrote:
I am just surprised that they are releasing a miniature (Infernal Master) that is supposed to be this great summoner of deamons but did not include a unit of deamons in the box. Hell one set of Screamers, would have been perfect.
Seriously, nothing on the Chaos side even has the deamon keyword. So why are the GreyKnights even there? Also the Chaos side loses the psykic battle with fewer psykers on the field giving the GK's more deny's.

The Tzaangor Shaman has the daemon keyword because of his disk. :V

If the box had screamers in it you wouldn't be able to run them in a detachment with the Thousand Sons units so it'd be pretty pointless.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 02:19:31


Post by: Vaktathi


I love the idea of a GK vs TS box.

The new character models however have the same problem many new GW models have, at least for me, in that they're too busy. There's too much stuff and detail. I don't want to deal with or paint the flame effects on Crowe's sword. Having flames and magical effects physically modeled all around and over the Sorceror is annoying. Adding extra detail or gribblies on a lot of this is just visual noise. It's stuff that takes a lot of extra time to paint, requires a very different painting texture than the rest of the piece, and often isn't appreciated or helpful at a tabletop level. GW likes to do a lot of extras to show off their plastic prowess, but a lot of it turns me off because it means substantially more painting time and effort. They're often also bits that like to get snagged on stuff and break or make the model too awkward to fit into a typical foam case spot. I really prefer Crowe's old glowing blade to the new smoke and flame engulfed incarnation.

Doesn't look like there will be much new on the GK front in terms of models for the most part if they're not getting Primaris-ized, which is ok for me as my GK's are entirely Terminators and I kinda like that old school force composition, though it does tell us GW doesn't feel any urgency to cycle the GK line the way they did the SM line.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 02:28:54


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Arachnofiend wrote:
If the box had screamers in it you wouldn't be able to run them in a detachment with the Thousand Sons units so it'd be pretty pointless.
I keep forgetting that Chaos players get punished for taking units from their own Codex.



Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 05:14:33


Post by: BrookM


re: GK's not getting their size upgrade, it seems GW is sticking to its fluff guns (for now at least) by still adhering to the statement made that the Grey Knights are a perfect creation of the Emperor and not to be tampered with by Cawl.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 06:18:13


Post by: zend


 Vaktathi wrote:
I love the idea of a GK vs TS box.

The new character models however have the same problem many new GW models have, at least for me, in that they're too busy. There's too much stuff and detail. I don't want to deal with or paint the flame effects on Crowe's sword. Having flames and magical effects physically modeled all around and over the Sorceror is annoying. Adding extra detail or gribblies on a lot of this is just visual noise. It's stuff that takes a lot of extra time to paint, requires a very different painting texture than the rest of the piece, and often isn't appreciated or helpful at a tabletop level. GW likes to do a lot of extras to show off their plastic prowess, but a lot of it turns me off because it means substantially more painting time and effort. They're often also bits that like to get snagged on stuff and break or make the model too awkward to fit into a typical foam case spot. I really prefer Crowe's old glowing blade to the new smoke and flame engulfed incarnation.

Doesn't look like there will be much new on the GK front in terms of models for the most part if they're not getting Primaris-ized, which is ok for me as my GK's are entirely Terminators and I kinda like that old school force composition, though it does tell us GW doesn't feel any urgency to cycle the GK line the way they did the SM line.


The new Be’lakor model would be perfect if his sword didn’t have poorly sculpted soul vapors attached to it permanently. I’d rather have had an option for a normal sword instead of 3 slightly different mouth options and an extra left arm.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 06:33:22


Post by: a_typical_hero


 BrookM wrote:
re: GK's not getting their size upgrade, it seems GW is sticking to its fluff guns (for now at least) by still adhering to the statement made that the Grey Knights are a perfect creation of the Emperor and not to be tampered with by Cawl.

That's alright. People don't want Primaris GK when they talk about new models, they want them resized similar to CSM. See the new Crowe.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 07:12:06


Post by: wuestenfux


As a GK player, the new Crowe model is a must-have even if its shelved due to its measly rules.
The rest of the GK in the box is more suited for a GK-beginner.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 07:54:09


Post by: EightFoldPath


 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 Nicorex wrote:
 CMLR wrote:
 Nicorex wrote:
I am just surprised that they are releasing a miniature (Infernal Master) that is supposed to be this great summoner of deamons but did not include a unit of deamons in the box. Hell one set of Screamers, would have been perfect.


Technically, he is summoning screamers right now, you know.


Which is why it would have been a great idea to have a unit of screamers in the box.


Makes me wonder what this means for daemon summoning in general.

I think there is a strong chance there will be no rule to allow summoning of daemons in the new daemon codex and instead we might see DG/TSon/World Eater/Emperors Children/Word Bearer armies of renown that allow the mixing of daemons and mortals.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 08:12:21


Post by: Not Online!!!


a_typical_hero wrote:
 BrookM wrote:
re: GK's not getting their size upgrade, it seems GW is sticking to its fluff guns (for now at least) by still adhering to the statement made that the Grey Knights are a perfect creation of the Emperor and not to be tampered with by Cawl.

That's alright. People don't want Primaris GK when they talk about new models, they want them resized similar to CSM. See the new Crowe.


resized yes, hopefully gw will remember to count to the max squad size multiple times though for the baseline equipment choices unlike with the CSMs.....
nobody should suffer 8 boltguns /7 pistols and chainswords in a 10 man box.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 13:31:40


Post by: Fayric


Perhaps the new k-sons dex actually provide 12" warp flamers, and with teleportation trixies will turn out bonkers -so natrually they wont put rubrics in a discount box.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 14:16:47


Post by: Daedalus81


Spoiler:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah but the 'baby carrier' could have been so much better. Look at one of the original pieces of artwork:



See how the Terminator isn't just hanging there. His legs, much like the new SoB Nundam suits, are integrated into the Dreadknight's legs?

I'm convinced that this would be a model everyone loves rather than one that gets constant ridicule 11 years since its release.


Not mine.



Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 14:47:28


Post by: Snrub


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not mine.

Spoiler:
That's probably the smoothest conversion of the dreadknight I've seen.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 14:52:24


Post by: Shadow Walker


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah but the 'baby carrier' could have been so much better. Look at one of the original pieces of artwork:



See how the Terminator isn't just hanging there. His legs, much like the new SoB Nundam suits, are integrated into the Dreadknight's legs?

I'm convinced that this would be a model everyone loves rather than one that gets constant ridicule 11 years since its release.


Not mine.

Awesome conversion!


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 19:31:35


Post by: Red Corsair


lol so GW is already going to do another FOMO box...

Well clearly this trend is just ramping up. So mid fall should see another box with either a limited codex tucked inside or another two factions with new models/units hidden in with old trash.

As someone else said previously, at least thats two more armies down (both power armor again unfortunately)


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 19:34:06


Post by: Theophony


 Nicorex wrote:
 CMLR wrote:
 Nicorex wrote:
I am just surprised that they are releasing a miniature (Infernal Master) that is supposed to be this great summoner of deamons but did not include a unit of deamons in the box. Hell one set of Screamers, would have been perfect.


Technically, he is summoning screamers right now, you know.


Which is why it would have been a great idea to have a unit of screamers in the box.

Just wait till they do a battlebox with him and loads of Pink Horrors


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/27 22:47:27


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Red Corsair wrote:
lol so GW is already going to do another FOMO box...
To be fair though, what exactly would one be missing out on? 11 year old GK minis?

I'm more concerned about missing out on the Crusade stuff.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 01:25:17


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
lol so GW is already going to do another FOMO box...
To be fair though, what exactly would one be missing out on? 11 year old GK minis?

I'm more concerned about missing out on the Crusade stuff.


Ditto. I could totally wait for the Infernal Master to be released on his own, but I want the Crusade stuff.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 06:19:57


Post by: ZergSmasher


To those of you who hate the Dreadknight, I'm sure there are plenty of 3d printable conversions to make it enclosed instead of the stock design that everyone except me seems to hate.

As for me and this box set, I don't play GK or TS so my wallet can continue to rest for a while. Although I will say that the new Crowe model is awesome, and so is the new Sorcerer guy for the Tsons.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 07:34:14


Post by: wuestenfux


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Red Corsair wrote:
lol so GW is already going to do another FOMO box...
To be fair though, what exactly would one be missing out on? 11 year old GK minis?

I'm more concerned about missing out on the Crusade stuff.


Indeed, 11 years old GK minis. I have a full painted GK army but this is indeed a liability.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 09:38:25


Post by: Nazrak


Will be very interested to see how this goes down – feel like putting the new Crowe model in with old power-armoured GKs just serves to emphasise how tired the non-upscaled, non-Primaris Marines are looking these days, and wonder if that's going to put people off.

Personally, it's nice that for once they're doing one of these boxes (and the next two Codices) with two factions I've no interest in, as it means I can catch up on my backlog for a bit without getting distracted by the latest shiny thing.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 10:54:52


Post by: JimmyWolf87


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah but the 'baby carrier' could have been so much better. Look at one of the original pieces of artwork:

See how the Terminator isn't just hanging there. His legs, much like the new SoB Nundam suits, are integrated into the Dreadknight's legs?

I'm convinced that this would be a model everyone loves rather than one that gets constant ridicule 11 years since its release.


Even that art looks derpy to me but then I never liked the whole concept in general; just never felt like it was necessary or thematic for Grey Knights when Dreadnaughts already exist. Maybe if it was a fully enclosed canopy for the pilot? Having someone in nigh-invulnerable terminator armour bundled around in another armoured harness is just a bit of 'hat on a hat' situation for me.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 14:58:14


Post by: dreadblade


JimmyWolf87 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah but the 'baby carrier' could have been so much better. Look at one of the original pieces of artwork:

See how the Terminator isn't just hanging there. His legs, much like the new SoB Nundam suits, are integrated into the Dreadknight's legs?

I'm convinced that this would be a model everyone loves rather than one that gets constant ridicule 11 years since its release.


Even that art looks derpy to me but then I never liked the whole concept in general; just never felt like it was necessary or thematic for Grey Knights when Dreadnaughts already exist. Maybe if it was a fully enclosed canopy for the pilot? Having someone in nigh-invulnerable terminator armour bundled around in another armoured harness is just a bit of 'hat on a hat' situation for me.


I guess it's to allow GK to battle greater deamons who are in general much larger than SM. A Terminator doesn't have much chance in a sword fight against a daemon three times his height.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 15:03:17


Post by: Rihgu


Yea, that's explicitly what it has been since first released.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 15:10:16


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


But a Greater Demon can just punch the hideously exposed pilot in his unhelmeted face, killing him instantly and making the entire Baby Carrier entirely pointless.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 15:13:23


Post by: Rihgu


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
But a Greater Demon can just punch the hideously exposed pilot in his unhelmeted face, killing him instantly and making the entire Baby Carrier entirely pointless.


Two different posters, I know, but I love how it's split between "this is useless! Terminator armor already provides enough protection!" and "but the terminator is exposed, so it offers no protection!"

The idea is to be able to sword/hammer fight the daemon, with parries and whatnot.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 15:22:38


Post by: Hulksmash


And as the newer GD models have come out it makes even more sense. Draigo looks ridiculous supposedly fighting something that has a 20ft reach on him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as the newer GD models have come out it makes even more sense. Draigo looks ridiculous supposedly fighting something that has a 20ft reach on him.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 15:25:04


Post by: PetitionersCity


I am remembered of this q&a with ADB in light of The Emperor's Gift (at https://www.google.com/amp/s/aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/questions-answered/amp/):



Q: “Although there are a number of reasons I say this (im sure you have heard the rage before) the one that set me off was the Grey Knight Dreadknight, which on a personal level I feel looks like a giant baby carrier, something my local GW Manager will not let me say out loud in his shop (I hate those Deomcracies of one). But the justification for the model and concept was ‘wouldnt it be great for Astartes to go toe to toe with a Demon, when all previous lore, and I think a fairly central theme to 40k is the idea that humanity isnt going toe to toe with anyone, everything prior to this model is the one guy, normally with a massive hammer holding out against impossible odds against things bigger, meaner and probably way better in bed that he has ever been.”

A: About going toe-to-toe… That’s true, sure. Going toe-to-toe against helpless odds is where the pathos is, I guess. I wouldn’t dispute that, but I don’t think it means the Dreadknight has no place at all. It’s just a new dynamic. It’s not any one person’s place to say whether something is Absolutely Right or Absolutely Wrong for the setting. 40K is all about shades of grey, and a billion possibilities.

Personally, the Dreadknight is one of the aspects of the Grey Knight changes that I’m not putting in the novel. It’s not that I think the concept sucks, or anything. It’s purely a matter that (like you, but less… angry) it diverges from what I like about that particular aspect of 40K. As writers, we’re all free to put in and take out what we like and dislike about the setting, by focusing on what we enjoy.

For me, when it comes to fighting daemons in 40K, it’s a seminal and quintessential deal of the whole license. It’s the lone man with a broken sword, fighting through his wounds against a creature twenty times his size. It’s that cold, cold moment when he looks up… and up… and up… and realises he’s absolutely fethed. He’s going to die. But he has faith, and he has a hammer, and he’s the only one left to hold the line. Being equal to the daemons isn’t something that interests me, but I can see why a Grey Knight would invent the Dreadknight. I just prefer the Warhammer: Mark of Chaos trailer-style daemon fight, or Inquisitor Rex standing against the towering form of An’ggrath, or Gandalf against the Balrog.

You’ll notice Gandalf doesn’t try to kill the Balrog. He shouts “You shall not pass.” He’s holding the line, not trying to carve his name in its heart. They’re both 40K-style actions, it’s just that one resonates with me more.



Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 15:30:20


Post by: Rihgu


And then Gandalf kills the balrog in an epic sword/magic battle and returns as Gandalf the White, which is a tiny bit more than holding the line.

But also the Balrog is man-sized in the books, if I recall right. Only in the movie is Gandalf holding the line against a beast 20 times his size, and yes, even then, he sword fights it to death and becomes even more powerful.

Where was ADB going with this?

edit: to be clear on my stance, I do prefer the look/style of the Paragon Warsuits to how the dreadknight is designed. I'm just saying, the narrative justification makes sense for a big walker.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 17:03:27


Post by: Dysartes


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
If the box had screamers in it you wouldn't be able to run them in a detachment with the Thousand Sons units so it'd be pretty pointless.
I keep forgetting that Chaos players get punished for taking units from their own Codex.


Honest question, as I don't own the (current) Thousand Sons 'dex - are Screamers in there?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 17:09:35


Post by: Rihgu


 Dysartes wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
If the box had screamers in it you wouldn't be able to run them in a detachment with the Thousand Sons units so it'd be pretty pointless.
I keep forgetting that Chaos players get punished for taking units from their own Codex.


Honest question, as I don't own the (current) Thousand Sons 'dex - are Screamers in there?


Yes, but only as reference for "hey, Chaos Characters can summon daemons! Here are some daemons you can summon"

Same reason bloodletters, plaguebearers, daemonettes, and horrors are in the Chaos Marines book. It has caused endless confusion so they're removing them (see Death Guard codex, which no longer has the Daemonic Ritual or any rules for Chaos Daemons(faction) units printed in 9th edition)


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 19:31:51


Post by: xerxeskingofking


 Dysartes wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
If the box had screamers in it you wouldn't be able to run them in a detachment with the Thousand Sons units so it'd be pretty pointless.
I keep forgetting that Chaos players get punished for taking units from their own Codex.


Honest question, as I don't own the (current) Thousand Sons 'dex - are Screamers in there?


I dont think so? It's a very closely related army, but strictly they are chaos deamons, not thousand sons. They don't share any factional keywords beyond chaos and tzeentch, so you could create a soup army with multiple detachments but not freely mix them without losing the purity battle forged bonus


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 21:06:37


Post by: EightFoldPath


Yes, 8th TSons codex has Horrors, Flamers, Screamers.

8th DG codex had Plaguebearers, Nurglings, Beasts, Drones. 9th DG codex has none.

So, odds are very good 9th TSons codex will have none too.

And, as I said before, I think the odds are good that the summoning mechanic in the 8th codex for Daemons won't be in the 9th codex.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 21:11:54


Post by: Sasori


EightFoldPath wrote:
Yes, 8th TSons codex has Horrors, Flamers, Screamers.

8th DG codex had Plaguebearers, Nurglings, Beasts, Drones. 9th DG codex has none.

So, odds are very good 9th TSons codex will have none too.

And, as I said before, I think the odds are good that the summoning mechanic in the 8th codex for Daemons won't be in the 9th codex.


Points/Units were already released in the June MFM update and the Daemons are indeed removed from the Thousand Sons dex.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 22:15:30


Post by: PetitionersCity


Rihgu wrote:
And then Gandalf kills the balrog in an epic sword/magic battle and returns as Gandalf the White, which is a tiny bit more than holding the line.

But also the Balrog is man-sized in the books, if I recall right. Only in the movie is Gandalf holding the line against a beast 20 times his size, and yes, even then, he sword fights it to death and becomes even more powerful.

Where was ADB going with this?

edit: to be clear on my stance, I do prefer the look/style of the Paragon Warsuits to how the dreadknight is designed. I'm just saying, the narrative justification makes sense for a big walker.


You forget, Gandalf does die (or as close to as is possible) facing the Balrog - he really did sacrifice himself:

Spoiler:


‘Long time I fell,’ he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with difficulty. ‘Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.’

‘Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin’s Bridge, and none has measured it,’ said Gimli.

‘Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,’ said Gandalf. ‘Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.

‘We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin’s folk, Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.’

‘Long has that been lost,’ said Gimli. ‘Many have said that it was never made save in legend, but others say that it was destroyed.’

‘It was made, and it had not been destroyed,’ said Gandalf. ‘From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed, ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin’s Tower carved in the living rock of Zirakzigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.

‘There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.’ Suddenly Gandalf laughed. ‘But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.

‘Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world. There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of over-burdened stone. And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away.




Also on the Balrog's size:

Spoiler:




The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs.

it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, or man-shape maybe, yet greater;

It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it.

For a moment the Orcs quailed and the fiery shadow halted.

His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.

With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished.




I think the Balrog could be big - and dwarfed Gandalf at the bridge - growing from its smaller shape to become a great height with wings spanning the walls, making Gandalf 'seem [...] small'. Like Sauron and other spirits, its form could change.

But on what ADB was meaning, he was going for a classic knight image - a knight fighting a great beast, e.g. a dragon (the kind of image Pratchett deconstructs in Guards, Guards, for example, when the heroic - and fake - 'knight' is roasted by the unreal dragon, or which saturates Dark Angels imagery on Caliban). So a Grey Knight, a human figure, fights massive beasts from the warp. A sacrificial figure or heroic figure - a Davidian figure, even:

Spoiler:












The warsuit removes that image by creating an 'equal' in scale, something less Davidian. It takes away from the sublime difference of scale of that kind of conflict. No longer a knight against a daemon dragon, or Gandalf sacrificing himself against a massive Balrog.

THis is exactly what occurs in The Emperor's Gift, with not only the brethren of Titan facing Angron, but their leader - Captain Taremar - sacrificing himself in single-combat with Angron to defeat him:

Spoiler:



As we drew nearer to the Lord of the Twelfth Legion, even sparing a second to cleanse the gore from my eye lenses made no difference. We were as good as blind, fighting shadows and marching to face a silhouette. Eye lenses cycled through vision modes to compensate, corrupted by intermittent static.
I saw the first squad reach the Great Beast at last. They reached its knees, even in Terminator plate. I saw them raise their weapons, each blade and stave wrapped in layers of lethal lightning.
I heard the sky tearing itself apart. I heard the screams of men going mad, kilometres away. I saw the black-and-bronze blade fall.
Their names were Korolos, Taymul, Jesric, Nyramar and Justicar Gauris. Sagas and legends alike fall back on classic imagery; they will often describe certain deaths with the simple analogy of foes despatched with the same ease of a man crushing an insect.
But a man must take aim at an insect – he must exert at least a modicum of effort to see it dead. I saw no such effort, here. Those five knights were wiped from life with the ease of a man wiping sweat from his brow. The Lord of the Twelfth Legion scarcely even seemed to pay attention to them – when the immense, keening blade swung, the beast was already turning to face other foes. Chain and cable tendrils thrashed as the daemon moved – a dirty simulation of a mane of hair. The thing never even saw my five kinsmen die.
Malchadiel’s storm bolter burst one of the last creatures remaining in front of us. +They never even had the chance to unleash their power,+ he sent.
+I know.+ Some of the Neverborn’s acidic blood was digesting the soft-armour joints of my ceramite, making it even harder to focus. When the beast turned again, its fire-eyed gaze raking over us, I realised that I had mere seconds left to live.
This was how I would die. Here. Now.
I felt nothing at all. At least, nothing beyond a sudden urge to laugh.
Shells were bursting against the behemoth, striking it from every angle. Sacred bolt shells, inscribed with holy writ and blessed against the foulness of the warp. Strings of viscera arced from its exploding flesh.
Galeo lifted his storm bolter. Ours rose alongside his in perfect unity, and Castian added its fire to our brothers’.
It was the last thing we ever did together.

+Now.+
Every knight still standing unleashed their power at Captain Taremar’s silent cry.
The enemy host was forgotten. The devil-lords of the Cruor Praetoria – if any still walked among us – were ignored. They were lesser threats, relatively speaking, that lesser warriors could deal with.
Angron. Lord of the Twelfth Legion. This was why we’d come.

Dumenidon was the first of Castian to fall.
One moment he was with us. The next he was gone. I think, when it happened, I actually felt him reach for me. I can’t be sure.
The beast was laying about with its blade, its edge crashing aside from the straining, flickering domes of kinetic force. It burst through another, reaved through the knights beneath it, and immediately turned to another threat.
Us.
Eyes of black fire bored into the five of us, and the blade descended less than a heartbeat later. The crack of it striking Mal’s kine-shield was the same thunder of a warship entering the warp between worlds. A second blow, a third, a fourth…
Mal was on his knees, shouting wordlessly across the vox.
+KILL IT KILL IT KILL IT+ he pulsed in an agonised flow.
On the fifth blow, the kine-shield shattered with another thunderclap. Malchadiel collapsed. Dumenidon fell with him, crushed into unrecognisable ruin by the blade. Just like that, he was gone, leaving a hole in my mind.
The blade rose and fell again.
+HYPERION+ came Galeo’s voice.
I caught the blade.
Not with my hands. With my mind. I locked that grievous, immense sword immobile with a surge of desperate focus, keeping it trembling in the air above us. Waves of psychic force turned the air into a heat mirage around my armour.
+Do… something…+ I managed to send.
Enceladus and Galeo threw their swords as spears. Both sank deep into the beast’s wrist, and both immediately caught flame, igniting the creature’s unholy blood. It still didn’t release its hold on the blade.
Angron roared. Without a force barrier, the sound blasted across us with dreadful physicality, tearing parchments and tabards from our armour and sliding us all back in the sloshing, blood-drowned mud.
I gave everything I had left. Absolutely everything. With my hands raised, I slowly curled them into fists, pouring body and soul into my sixth sense clutching that blade. They wouldn’t close completely. They just wouldn’t.
My vision blurred. I felt saliva trickling from the edge of my mouth. My muscles went into cramp, and my hearts started to beat ragged.
was killing myself with this. The focused depletion of life force, channelled into psychic energy. But I was already dead, so what did it matter?
In the air above us, the black blade cracked.
And everyone froze.
The sound was as stark and alien as a laugh in the middle of a funeral march. Even the Lord of the Twelfth Legion hesitated, huffing a stinking breath in disbelief.
I swear, the loudest sound on that battlefield was me screaming into the vox. I felt psychic hoarfrost riming my armour, densest on my outstretched hands. My eyes lit with ghost-flame, painless but still blindingly bright, purely as an overspill of psychic energies.
+Hyperion…+ I heard Galeo whisper. He may have said more. If he did, I didn’t hear it.
I closed my hands, made them fists.
Above me, the blade shattered. Cursed black bronze blasted across the field of battle, raining on the just and unjust alike. Several shards tore gashes across the daemon’s skin, or lodged into his flesh. There came a roar, the likes of which defied reality. It had no place outside a nightmare.
And I was on my knees without knowing when I’d fallen low.
+Mal,+ I sent to his prone body, not knowing whether he was alive or dead. +Mal. Mal. Mal…+
Galeo and Enceladus drew closer. I didn’t know why. I didn’t know anything any more – I couldn’t see, I couldn’t focus, I couldn’t speak.
The last thing I remember of the battle was Captain Taremar’s voice, cutting right to my core.
+Angron,+ he called. +Justice comes. Turn, beast, and face me.+




Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 22:24:39


Post by: Irbis


PetitionersCity wrote:
I am remembered of this q&a with ADB in light of The Emperor's Gift

ADB is one of the worst things to happen to 40K and GK in particular. Not only is TEG book full of insane, making no sense additions way worse than Dreadknight ever was, this quote is particularly stupid because if one Greater Daemon wiped out whole GK company every time they fight, there would be literally no point to GK whatsoever.

He also made the utter garbage flaming trash of a pile book where GK are somehow ashamed to fight Wolfwolfs (instead being full of fury head imbecile of SW likely doomed countless worlds through his stupid actions when GK were about to fix it plus the whole murder of GK commander under false parley thing). Speaking of which, I still like how (psychic) GK commander (who can literally read thoughts and see future), his champion/bodyguard, and whole squad of GK terminators just stand there as head SW imbecile pulls his axe, swings it back, and hits said commander in the face (instead of being frozen, psychically thrown back, shoot in the face with storm bolters all GK have, or million other things) then escapes while all GK still stand there dumbfounded or something. And that is one of the less stupid scenes in the book.

So, yeah, I wouldn't take one word he says about GK, especially after dumb, leading question from some 4chan kid. Especially seeing he is laughably wrong on Gandalf theme too (and he ""forgot"" Rex thing was vastly more egregious than anything Draigo ever did, but 4chan doesn't screech about this one so no one ever mentions it) and compares human peasant effectiveness to that of GK terminator


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/28 22:37:41


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


Making a full on giant robot suit to fight Greater Demons that, logically, would AT BEST have the durability equal to a single Grey Knight is a monumentally stupid move on everyone's part and a huge waste of resources.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/29 03:06:37


Post by: Olgerth Istaarn


 Irbis wrote:
PetitionersCity wrote:
I am remembered of this q&a with ADB in light of The Emperor's Gift

ADB is one of the worst things to happen to 40K and GK in particular. Not only is TEG book full of insane, making no sense additions way worse than Dreadknight ever was, this quote is particularly stupid because if one Greater Daemon wiped out whole GK company every time they fight, there would be literally no point to GK whatsoever.

He also made the utter garbage flaming trash of a pile book where GK are somehow ashamed to fight Wolfwolfs (instead being full of fury head imbecile of SW likely doomed countless worlds through his stupid actions when GK were about to fix it plus the whole murder of GK commander under false parley thing). Speaking of which, I still like how (psychic) GK commander (who can literally read thoughts and see future), his champion/bodyguard, and whole squad of GK terminators just stand there as head SW imbecile pulls his axe, swings it back, and hits said commander in the face (instead of being frozen, psychically thrown back, shoot in the face with storm bolters all GK have, or million other things) then escapes while all GK still stand there dumbfounded or something. And that is one of the less stupid scenes in the book.

So, yeah, I wouldn't take one word he says about GK, especially after dumb, leading question from some 4chan kid. Especially seeing he is laughably wrong on Gandalf theme too (and he ""forgot"" Rex thing was vastly more egregious than anything Draigo ever did, but 4chan doesn't screech about this one so no one ever mentions it) and compares human peasant effectiveness to that of GK terminator


Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/29 03:22:46


Post by: Voss


Great.

Can we put the giant photos and text blocks about LOTR in spoiler tags and move back to the boxed set and not a screed/anti-screed against various BL authors? Its rather mucking up the thread.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/29 07:02:43


Post by: PetitionersCity


Irbis, I think that's a - small - touch of hyperbole on your part, one that is rather reads like a 4chan post itself rather than actual criticism. Calm, brother, and balance your humours - it's all made up

Anyway I remember a child being fascinated by the account in Codex: Chaos, which is similarly titanic and similarly costly. That wasn't Aaron's addition to the lore.

Spoiler:



Similarly the book shows everyone being in the wrong - according to the demented rules of the world they live in. But arguably the implication is that both sides are "guilty":

Spoiler:

‘Do not speak to me of honour…’ White warp-fire sidewindered in hissing coils around my fists. ‘You… are as guilty… as we are. This is the Imperium of Man, Old Wolf, not a fabled empire of bliss and joy. We are the Emperor’s Gift. We know what must be done. We never let stubborn pride and misplaced kindness blind us to the real enemy.’
The axe cracked. A thick, black crack split the ancient relic, severing one wolf’s head from its shoulders.
‘We are both guilty in this war.’ I spat the words into his grizzled, bearded face.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/29 08:44:56


Post by: wuestenfux


 Nazrak wrote:
Will be very interested to see how this goes down – feel like putting the new Crowe model in with old power-armoured GKs just serves to emphasise how tired the non-upscaled, non-Primaris Marines are looking these days, and wonder if that's going to put people off.

Personally, it's nice that for once they're doing one of these boxes (and the next two Codices) with two factions I've no interest in, as it means I can catch up on my backlog for a bit without getting distracted by the latest shiny thing.

Catching up backlog is always a nice thing. It gives a feeling of not missing anything.
That's why concentrating on just one or a few armies is a good policy playing 40k.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/29 17:06:35


Post by: chaos0xomega


I like ADB, I think hes great. *shrug*


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 01:39:54


Post by: dienekes96


I won’t shrug. I love Emperor’s Gift, and it’s nuanced view of Imperial politics and human foibles. ADB is one of the very best writers BL utilizes, and he continues to get the detail and texture of the universe right while still having recognizable human perspectives and responses.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 03:24:53


Post by: Marshal Loss


Agree with the above two posters. This is the usual Irbis drivel anyway, so I wouldn't pay him much attention.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 14:37:59


Post by: chaos0xomega


Yeah, I hear that about Irbis a lot. Very strong opinions, but often not ones I can relate to.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 16:55:47


Post by: Galas


As a polish, feeling strongly about something most people don't care about is part of his/her heritage.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 19:15:54


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Galas wrote:
As a polish, feeling strongly about something most people don't care about is part of his/her heritage.


That seems pretty discriminatory, as well as being outright insulting. Not a good look - especially considering that the stereotypes of the typical Spaniard aren't particularly flattering, should we apply those to you?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 20:17:17


Post by: cuda1179


RUMORS from the box.

Grey Knights gain a second wound (obviously), but the base Strike Squad guy now has 3 attacks base. Swords are now the same as Master Crafted Power Swords. Halberds are S+2, Ap-2, D2. Incinerators are range 12, Heavy D6, St6, Ap-1, D1. Psylancer is Range 24, Heavy 6, St4, ap-1. Psycannons are only 3 shots now, St7, Ap-1, D2


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 20:21:46


Post by: cuda1179


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah but the 'baby carrier' could have been so much better. Look at one of the original pieces of artwork:



See how the Terminator isn't just hanging there. His legs, much like the new SoB Nundam suits, are integrated into the Dreadknight's legs?

I'm convinced that this would be a model everyone loves rather than one that gets constant ridicule 11 years since its release.


Not mine.



Here's mine:

[Thumb - dreadknight.jpg]


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 20:25:30


Post by: Sasori





Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 22:28:55


Post by: EightFoldPath


The extra attacks would suggest Grey Knights might be losing Shock Assault similar to Death Guard (and probably so will Thousand Sons). So, Grey Knights are confirmed Chaos?

From the last Munitorum Field Manual compared to standard space marine tactical marines:
Strike Squad +4pts
Purifier +5pts
Purgation +4pts
Interceptor +6pts

Only psycannons and Daemon Hammers cost extra, everything else is free. Some of those free weapons seem a bit odd, but maybe I don't quite understand the load out options.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 22:32:59


Post by: Voss


EightFoldPath wrote:
The extra attacks would suggest Grey Knights might be losing Shock Assault similar to Death Guard (and probably so will Thousand Sons).


I'd be happy to see it (and similar rules) go away on everybody. Conditional for X, Y AND Z (but not for A ) is a waste of space. Just bump the stat (or just accept that 2 attacks is more than reasonable in the first place)


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 22:36:34


Post by: DaPino


 cuda1179 wrote:
RUMORS from the box.

Grey Knights gain a second wound (obviously), but the base Strike Squad guy now has 3 attacks base. Swords are now the same as Master Crafted Power Swords. Halberds are S+2, Ap-2, D2. Incinerators are range 12, Heavy D6, St6, Ap-1, D1. Psylancer is Range 24, Heavy 6, St4, ap-1. Psycannons are only 3 shots now, St7, Ap-1, D2


So basically:

Strike squads 2 wounds 3 attacks each (4 for sarg)

Incinerator: 12" Heavy D6 6 -1 1 (more range basically)
Psilencer: Heavy 6 S4 -1 1 (Gained 1 AP, no d3 dmg)
Psycannon: Heavy 3 S7 -1 2 (lost a shot gained a dmg)
Daemon Hammer: x2 -2 3 (lost 1 AP)
Falchions: U -2 1 (lost d3 dmg, auch!)
Halberds: +2 -2 2 (+1S, d3 dmg changed to flat 2)
Sword: +1 -3 2 (+1S, d3 dmg changed to flat 2)
Stave: +3 -1 2 (+1S, d3 dmg changed to flat 2)

Overall I'd say a slight buff to melee and swapping the roles of psilencer and psycannon (anti-horde and anti-elite now instead of psilencer just being the better option).


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 23:13:57


Post by: alextroy


DaPino wrote:

Falchions: U -2 1 (lost d3 dmg, auch!)
Halberds: +2 -2 2 (+1S, d3 dmg changed to flat 2)
Sword: +1 -3 2 (+1S, d3 dmg changed to flat 2)
Stave: +3 -1 2 (+1S, d3 dmg changed to flat 2)
Assuming Falchions include at least 1 extra attack each time you fight, GW is leaning heavy on making all these melee weapons equivalent but better in specific circumstances. Given the less Strength, AP, and Damage, you'll need to hope Falchions give more than just one extra attack. I wonder if 2 would do the job?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 23:26:20


Post by: xeen


EightFoldPath wrote:
The extra attacks would suggest Grey Knights might be losing Shock Assault similar to Death Guard (and probably so will Thousand Sons). So, Grey Knights are confirmed Chaos?

From the last Munitorum Field Manual compared to standard space marine tactical marines:
Strike Squad +4pts
Purifier +5pts
Purgation +4pts
Interceptor +6pts

Only psycannons and Daemon Hammers cost extra, everything else is free. Some of those free weapons seem a bit odd, but maybe I don't quite understand the load out options.


+4 points per model for 2 more attacks, a pretty good CC weapon, strombolter instead of normal bolter, and being a psyker seems like a pretty good deal.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/30 23:39:02


Post by: EightFoldPath


Kind of interesting to see how Rubrics will compare.

1pt less than Strikes.

Likely to be:
1 less attack.
Fists rather than melee weapon.
Similar psychic.

Will the gun still be RF1 ap2 vs Strikes' RF2 ap0?

That would leave the 5++ and all is dust to do some heavy lifting.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/31 04:52:06


Post by: xeen


I am hoping all is dust becomes S7 and less instead of damage. That would be a huge improvement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am hoping all is dust becomes S7 and less instead of damage. That would be a huge improvement.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/31 05:20:11


Post by: H.B.M.C.


How many Halberds, Swords and Fashions are on the GK sprue?

I might be missing something, but I only see 3 Halberds per sprue of 5 minis.

Are we about to hit a "3 in every 5 Grey Knights may take a Nemesis Force Halberd..." situation?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/31 09:42:55


Post by: dreadblade


Not in this week's pre-orders...


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/31 11:10:07


Post by: Dysartes


Given we knew on Sunday what was going on pre-order today, that's not a surprise - the more interesting question is "what are we told tomorrow will be on pre-order next week?"


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/31 15:48:47


Post by: wuestenfux


DaPino wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
RUMORS from the box.

Grey Knights gain a second wound (obviously), but the base Strike Squad guy now has 3 attacks base. Swords are now the same as Master Crafted Power Swords. Halberds are S+2, Ap-2, D2. Incinerators are range 12, Heavy D6, St6, Ap-1, D1. Psylancer is Range 24, Heavy 6, St4, ap-1. Psycannons are only 3 shots now, St7, Ap-1, D2


So basically:

Strike squads 2 wounds 3 attacks each (4 for sarg)

Incinerator: 12" Heavy D6 6 -1 1 (more range basically)
Psilencer: Heavy 6 S4 -1 1 (Gained 1 AP, no d3 dmg)
Psycannon: Heavy 3 S7 -1 2 (lost a shot gained a dmg)
Daemon Hammer: x2 -2 3 (lost 1 AP)
Falchions: U -2 1 (lost d3 dmg, auch!)
Halberds: +2 -2 2 (+1S, d3 dmg changed to flat 2)
Sword: +1 -3 2 (+1S, d3 dmg changed to flat 2)
Stave: +3 -1 2 (+1S, d3 dmg changed to flat 2)

Overall I'd say a slight buff to melee and swapping the roles of psilencer and psycannon (anti-horde and anti-elite now instead of psilencer just being the better option).

These rumors look good enough to prepare for upcoming games with the new GK.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/31 20:38:22


Post by: EightFoldPath


 xeen wrote:
I am hoping all is dust becomes S7 and less instead of damage. That would be a huge improvement.

If it is save based, I think it will be limited to armour saves and not include invulnerable saves. S7 or less attacks give plus 1 save sounds ok.
Other options I think could be All is Dust = permanent transhuman. Similar to Inner Circle from Dark Angels.
Or, All is Dust = a permanent -1 to wound. Similar to Harlequin infantry near a Shadowseer.

 wuestenfux wrote:
DaPino wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
RUMORS from the box.

Grey Knights gain a second wound (obviously), but the base Strike Squad guy now has 3 attacks base. Swords are now the same as Master Crafted Power Swords. Halberds are S+2, Ap-2, D2. Incinerators are range 12, Heavy D6, St6, Ap-1, D1. Psylancer is Range 24, Heavy 6, St4, ap-1. Psycannons are only 3 shots now, St7, Ap-1, D2


So basically:

Strike squads 2 wounds 3 attacks each (4 for sarg)

Incinerator: 12" Heavy D6 6 -1 1 (more range basically)
Psilencer: Heavy 6 S4 -1 1 (Gained 1 AP, no d3 dmg)
Psycannon: Heavy 3 S7 -1 2 (lost a shot gained a dmg)
Daemon Hammer: x2 -2 3 (lost 1 AP)
Falchions: U -2 1 (lost d3 dmg, auch!)
Halberds: +2 -2 2 (+1S, d3 dmg changed to flat 2)
Sword: +1 -3 2 (+1S, d3 dmg changed to flat 2)
Stave: +3 -1 2 (+1S, d3 dmg changed to flat 2)

Overall I'd say a slight buff to melee and swapping the roles of psilencer and psycannon (anti-horde and anti-elite now instead of psilencer just being the better option).

These rumors look good enough to prepare for upcoming games with the new GK.

Seeing the GK rules is making me salivate for Thousand Sons. They have to make the two books coming out at the same time somewhat balanced? Right? Right!?!


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/31 20:46:11


Post by: Daedalus81


-1 to wound would be pretty neat - not sure on the math. I'd like to see GW expand the "types" of problems like they've done so far.

GK otherwise look to be shaping up as really formidable melee opponents.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/07/31 22:29:23


Post by: Arachnofiend


The Kill Team datasheet isn't necessarily indicative, but if it is it implies that All Is Dust is nerfed from 8th; in KT it activates against three damage weapons (which is a bolter basically) but doesn't affect your invulnerable save.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 02:58:09


Post by: Accolade


God, the old GK look *terrible* in this box…like 3rd edition Dark Eldar Scourges slapped in an 8th edition battle box. The update to their leader just drives that home much more so


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 03:20:01


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I think it's the big box magazines on their Storm Bolters. If they had the linkages to their backpacks like the 3rd Ed metals they perhaps wouldn't look quite so silly.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 11:54:09


Post by: Irbis


DaPino wrote:
Grey Knights gain a second wound (obviously), but the base Strike Squad guy now has 3 attacks base.

Which is kinda dumb change as Purifiers as elites used to have +1 attack while Purgators (the devastator equivalent) always was less potent in melee than the other 3 types as they were practicing marksmanship, not swordplay (they ever used to have badass quote stating this in old book). Now all three are exactly identical. Hooray for fluff adherence, I guess.

Psilencer: Heavy 6 S4 -1 1 (Gained 1 AP, no d3 dmg)
Falchions: U -2 1 (lost d3 dmg, auch!)

Which again is dumb change as all of these are supposed to be force (old instant death) weapons and them going down in damage is silly seeing no other force weapon in the game got this change and we had gigantic damage inflation on previously weak xeno weapons. Now a piece of rebar held by ork is more dangerous than a master crafted sword wielded by supposedly greatest of the space marines capable of instantly killing any enemy on the slightest touch. Hooray for fluff adherence, I guess

And yes, I get the intent is to reduce the amount of rolling, especially with huge attack inflation GK just had, but I feel there were way more elegant and fluffy ways to do so than just to blanderize them into copy/paste of every single other SM book.

 alextroy wrote:
Assuming Falchions include at least 1 extra attack each time you fight, GW is leaning heavy on making all these melee weapons equivalent but better in specific circumstances. Given the less Strength, AP, and Damage, you'll need to hope Falchions give more than just one extra attack. I wonder if 2 would do the job?

Seeing S/H/S are now blanderized to be 1:1 copies of sword/axe/maul of other chapters, I'd imagine falchions are now not-claws (reroll to wound). If so, this might mean stave lost its force field (very likely to be the case seeing it's free). Hooray for fluff adherence, again.

It's also sad how psycannon had perfect stats in 5th edition to be interesting gun useful in wide range of situations, but OP in none and every single knee jerk change GW did since then made it worse and less unique. It's now blanderized heavy bolter - a full circle all the way back to third edition, funnily enough. They could also make psilencer assault weapon to make it less of a clone of psycannon (but that would be too fluffy seeing it's supposed to have zero recoil and is targeted/fired by user's mind) but what do I know, I guess.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 14:30:53


Post by: Rihgu


 Irbis wrote:
DaPino wrote:
Grey Knights gain a second wound (obviously), but the base Strike Squad guy now has 3 attacks base.

Which is kinda dumb change as Purifiers as elites used to have +1 attack while Purgators (the devastator equivalent) always was less potent in melee than the other 3 types as they were practicing marksmanship, not swordplay (they ever used to have badass quote stating this in old book). Now all three are exactly identical. Hooray for fluff adherence, I guess.


I can guarantee to you that a Purgator with a psycannon is going to be worse in melee than a Purifier with a Nemesis Force Sword.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 17:28:35


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


Here's hoping our magic phase is all it's cracked up to be.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 17:42:12


Post by: bullyboy


Getting both codices at the same time bodes well for 40K releases before year's end. we should see Orks, and at least 2-3 more books.

Let's see how both of these books stack up to admech, drukhari and sisters.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 18:00:38


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


I want to see how we stand up to Death Guard, and whether Magnus is a chump compared to Mortarion. GW seems to hate Tzeentch, after all.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 18:23:47


Post by: dreadblade




So when do pre-orders normally go live?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 18:26:24


Post by: Aeneades




10am next Saturday.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 18:28:51


Post by: dreadblade


Aeneades wrote:


10am next Saturday.




Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 19:39:18


Post by: Daedalus81


 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
I want to see how we stand up to Death Guard, and whether Magnus is a chump compared to Mortarion. GW seems to hate Tzeentch, after all.


All I want is to pay points for inferno combis and gargoyles on my vehicles.

Maybe we'll get an answer to whether or not summoning is still a ( hopefully usable ) concept, too.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 20:02:12


Post by: Qcbob


Interesting that according to BattleScribe, (i don't own the actual GK codex) there is 33 datasheets available and the Sunday Preview mentions 32...

Good bye Land Raider Banisher... (what a suprise...*sarcasm)

Which mean nothing new at all for GK that already exist, and nothing and absolutly nothing about Primaris GK



Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 20:02:45


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
I want to see how we stand up to Death Guard, and whether Magnus is a chump compared to Mortarion. GW seems to hate Tzeentch, after all.


All I want is to pay points for inferno combis and gargoyles on my vehicles.

Maybe we'll get an answer to whether or not summoning is still a ( hopefully usable ) concept, too.


The Field Manual confirms we're getting Inferno Bolts in combi-weapons. I'm hoping they also get to be loaded in heavy bolters, but that might be getting greedy.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 20:23:17


Post by: Rihgu


 Qcbob wrote:
Interesting that according to BattleScribe, (i don't own the actual GK codex) there is 33 datasheets available and the Sunday Preview mentions 32...

Good bye Land Raider Banisher... (what a suprise...*sarcasm)

Which mean nothing new at all for GK that already exist, and nothing and absolutly nothing about Primaris GK



Well, Battlescribe is (as usual) wrong, as there are 34 datasheets available to Grey Knights right now. 2 of them are Forge World, and wouldn't be included in the GK codex anyways.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 22:20:15


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


Rihgu wrote:
 Qcbob wrote:
Interesting that according to BattleScribe, (i don't own the actual GK codex) there is 33 datasheets available and the Sunday Preview mentions 32...

Good bye Land Raider Banisher... (what a suprise...*sarcasm)

Which mean nothing new at all for GK that already exist, and nothing and absolutly nothing about Primaris GK



Well, Battlescribe is (as usual) wrong, as there are 34 datasheets available to Grey Knights right now. 2 of them are Forge World, and wouldn't be included in the GK codex anyways.


And one of those two Forge World units is the aforementioned Land Raider Banisher. So unless GW feels the need to just delete its datasheet from Imperial Armor, I'd call it safe.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/01 23:59:54


Post by: DaPino


 Irbis wrote:


Psilencer: Heavy 6 S4 -1 1 (Gained 1 AP, no d3 dmg)
Falchions: U -2 1 (lost d3 dmg, auch!)

Which again is dumb change as all of these are supposed to be force (old instant death) weapons and them going down in damage is silly seeing no other force weapon in the game got this change and we had gigantic damage inflation on previously weak xeno weapons. Now a piece of rebar held by ork is more dangerous than a master crafted sword wielded by supposedly greatest of the space marines capable of instantly killing any enemy on the slightest touch. Hooray for fluff adherence, I guess

And yes, I get the intent is to reduce the amount of rolling, especially with huge attack inflation GK just had, but I feel there were way more elegant and fluffy ways to do so than just to blanderize them into copy/paste of every single other SM book.


I mean, psilencers had force for like, one edition? And it was a big deal since they never had been force weapons. So I don't think it's really fair to say it's stupid they aren't anymore when they litterally weren't for the majority of the game's existence.

Also, litterally every faction is the strongest in its own fluff. If enough orks believe a piece of rebar can kill a titan by pointing at it, it will.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 00:38:28


Post by: Qcbob


Interesting to see that the Grey Knight Strike Squad is actually... Sold Out Online, probably a reboxing or something


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 00:49:30


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
I want to see how we stand up to Death Guard, and whether Magnus is a chump compared to Mortarion. GW seems to hate Tzeentch, after all.


All I want is to pay points for inferno combis and gargoyles on my vehicles.

Maybe we'll get an answer to whether or not summoning is still a ( hopefully usable ) concept, too.

Daemonic Ritual will probably be removed from the 1ksons codex just like it was from the Death Guard codex. It'll still work because it's in the current Chaos Daemons codex. Whether or not it works the same in the 9th edition Chaos Daemons codex is anyone's guess.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 00:52:45


Post by: Flipsiders


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
I want to see how we stand up to Death Guard, and whether Magnus is a chump compared to Mortarion. GW seems to hate Tzeentch, after all.


All I want is to pay points for inferno combis and gargoyles on my vehicles.

Maybe we'll get an answer to whether or not summoning is still a ( hopefully usable ) concept, too.

Daemonic Ritual will probably be removed from the 1ksons codex just like it was from the Death Guard codex. It'll still work because it's in the current Chaos Daemons codex. Whether or not it works the same in the 9th edition Chaos Daemons codex is anyone's guess.


This may be an unpopular opinion, but I'm hoping summoning changed to be as powerful as it should be, and the points costs of those able to do it are increased accordingly. If I'm running a unit which can place a bunch of Daemons onto the battlefield, I want him to place those fething Daemons without having to cripple my whole army, darnit.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 01:07:06


Post by: Arachnofiend


I reaaaaally disagree with pricing chaos HQ's with the assumption that they're putting a bunch of extra daemons on the field. That's just gonna suck for everyone. There are a lot of things you could do with Daemonic Ritual that makes it work as a sideboard that doesn't punish you for not running the sideboard.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 01:20:51


Post by: Vain


DaPino wrote:
 Irbis wrote:


Psilencer: Heavy 6 S4 -1 1 (Gained 1 AP, no d3 dmg)
Falchions: U -2 1 (lost d3 dmg, auch!)

Which again is dumb change as all of these are supposed to be force (old instant death) weapons and them going down in damage is silly seeing no other force weapon in the game got this change and we had gigantic damage inflation on previously weak xeno weapons. Now a piece of rebar held by ork is more dangerous than a master crafted sword wielded by supposedly greatest of the space marines capable of instantly killing any enemy on the slightest touch. Hooray for fluff adherence, I guess

And yes, I get the intent is to reduce the amount of rolling, especially with huge attack inflation GK just had, but I feel there were way more elegant and fluffy ways to do so than just to blanderize them into copy/paste of every single other SM book.


I mean, psilencers had force for like, one edition? And it was a big deal since they never had been force weapons. So I don't think it's really fair to say it's stupid they aren't anymore when they litterally weren't for the majority of the game's existence.

Also, litterally every faction is the strongest in its own fluff. If enough orks believe a piece of rebar can kill a titan by pointing at it, it will.


I am reading this as the poster is talking about the Falchions, not the Psilencer, as they are the famed Force weapon of the GK that has lost the D3 as well.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 07:30:15


Post by: tneva82


 Qcbob wrote:
Interesting to see that the Grey Knight Strike Squad is actually... Sold Out Online, probably a reboxing or something


Yes. New box with new art=new SKU. Old SKU won't be sold=sold out. It's not just replacing cover and be done. It's actually new SKU for the system so old cover with old SKU will be marked as out of sale.

Standard thing with new codexes. In AOS side some people are panicking old stormcast are getting squatted because of same thing


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 09:49:07


Post by: Dysartes


 Arachnofiend wrote:
I reaaaaally disagree with pricing chaos HQ's with the assumption that they're putting a bunch of extra daemons on the field. That's just gonna suck for everyone. There are a lot of things you could do with Daemonic Ritual that makes it work as a sideboard that doesn't punish you for not running the sideboard.

*shrug*

Make the ability to summon an upgrade for characters. You then pick and choose who has the option to, but your opponent can also try to remove them to maroon the daemons in the Warp.

On the other hand, that would mean a small degree of tactical interplay, and this is GW, so...


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 10:12:35


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Dysartes wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
I reaaaaally disagree with pricing chaos HQ's with the assumption that they're putting a bunch of extra daemons on the field. That's just gonna suck for everyone. There are a lot of things you could do with Daemonic Ritual that makes it work as a sideboard that doesn't punish you for not running the sideboard.

*shrug*

Make the ability to summon an upgrade for characters. You then pick and choose who has the option to, but your opponent can also try to remove them to maroon the daemons in the Warp.

On the other hand, that would mean a small degree of tactical interplay, and this is GW, so...

You could tie summoning to purchasable Icons like it was in previous editions. Don't want to pay for the ability to summon? Don't buy the Icon.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 10:17:33


Post by: Nazrak


Once these books are out, does that mean it's just regular Chaos Space Marines left languishing in 1W purgatory, or have I forgotten someone?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 10:26:24


Post by: xttz


 Nazrak wrote:
Once these books are out, does that mean it's just regular Chaos Space Marines left languishing in 1W purgatory, or have I forgotten someone?


Yep, this should be the remaining list of factions barring anything new like Black Templars or World Eaters.

Custodes (& SoS?)
Imperial Guard
Imperial Knights

CSM
Chaos Knights
Daemons

Craftworlds
GSC
Harlequins
Tyranids
Tau
Ynnari?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 11:21:23


Post by: Nazrak


 xttz wrote:
 Nazrak wrote:
Once these books are out, does that mean it's just regular Chaos Space Marines left languishing in 1W purgatory, or have I forgotten someone?


Yep, this should be the remaining list of factions barring anything new like Black Templars or World Eaters.

Custodes (& SoS?)
Imperial Guard
Imperial Knights

CSM
Chaos Knights
Daemons

Craftworlds
GSC
Harlequins
Tyranids
Tau
Ynnari?

Thanks for confirming. Poor old CSM, eh?

After GK, TS, Orks and (presumably) the upcoming Black Templars supplement, am I right in thinking we've had no indication who, out of the above, is next in line for their 9E Codex?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 11:26:28


Post by: Arbitrator


 Nazrak wrote:
After GK, TS, Orks and (presumably) the upcoming Black Templars supplement, am I right in thinking we've had no indication who, out of the above, is next in line for their 9E Codex?

The armies focused on in the War Zone Charadon books roughly aligned with the armies who received codexes first (Death Guard, Dark Eldar, Mechanicus, SoB), so there's a decent chance it'll be Tyranids and Guard next.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 11:28:45


Post by: a_typical_hero


We have no indication, but some clues:

- Death Korps are getting new models and got featured in the new Ork codex.
- Imperial Knights, CSM and Chaos Daemons are featured in campaign books with Armies of Renown / Codex supplements.
- Tyranids are supposed to feature in an upcoming warzone Octarius campaign book.

With these exceptions noted, all other armies in the campaign books are 9th edition.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 13:13:49


Post by: Audustum


Man, Custodes and Tau in the big fight for last Codex.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 13:33:05


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Audustum wrote:
Man, Custodes and Tau in the big fight for last Codex.
Don't count CSM out yet.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 13:47:46


Post by: Sunny Side Up


Meanwhile, Ynnari still waiting on their 8th Edition book and still have no rules for the alternative builds in the Banshee and Incubi box.

Spoiler:




Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 14:01:14


Post by: The Phazer


a_typical_hero wrote:
We have no indication, but some clues:

- Death Korps are getting new models and got featured in the new Ork codex.
- Imperial Knights, CSM and Chaos Daemons are featured in campaign books with Armies of Renown / Codex supplements.
- Tyranids are supposed to feature in an upcoming warzone Octarius campaign book.

With these exceptions noted, all other armies in the campaign books are 9th edition.


We've also got some models that are definitely Genestealer Cult in the rumour engine.

Which granted could be Kill Team, but I suspect GW would squeeze their codex out at the same time.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 14:09:46


Post by: Aash


Has this been posted already:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/08/02/psychic-slugfest-grey-knights-and-thousand-sons-throw-down-with-new-powers/

New psychic powers specific to subfaction cult/brotherhood in addition to other psychic powers




Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 14:13:01


Post by: Quasistellar


Interesting to note that not a single one of these powers requires line of sight.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 14:14:48


Post by: Sterling191


The larger implication is that GK have some means to cast non-Smite powers multiple times per phase.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 14:44:46


Post by: The Black Adder


Sterling191 wrote:
The larger implication is that GK have some means to cast non-Smite powers multiple times per phase.


I re-read the article and I can't see where that might be implied. I could be having a stupid moment. Would you mind pointing it out?

From what I read these powers are simply additional powers that are available to cast.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 14:48:32


Post by: tneva82


Noticed they used singular with ts, plural on gk. Let's see if writers just lazy or gk subfactions gets more powers, traits and relics than ts


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 15:03:00


Post by: Sterling191


The Black Adder wrote:

I re-read the article and I can't see where that might be implied. I could be having a stupid moment. Would you mind pointing it out?

From what I read these powers are simply additional powers that are available to cast.


Multiple GK powers are explicitly precluded from affecting a unit more than once per round. That stipulation is unnecessary (and absent from all other Psyker abilities to date) since a power can only be attempted once per round. The fact that it is there indicates some manner of avoiding said restriction on once per round casting.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 15:21:42


Post by: Dysartes


Sunny Side Up wrote:
Meanwhile, Ynnari still waiting on their 8th Edition book and still have no rules for the alternative builds in the Banshee and Incubi box.

There were parts for Ynnari-ncubi in their box? I remember them getting called out for the Banshees, but not the Drew Carey unit.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 15:35:47


Post by: Daedalus81


Sterling191 wrote:
The Black Adder wrote:

I re-read the article and I can't see where that might be implied. I could be having a stupid moment. Would you mind pointing it out?

From what I read these powers are simply additional powers that are available to cast.


Multiple GK powers are explicitly precluded from affecting a unit more than once per round. That stipulation is unnecessary (and absent from all other Psyker abilities to date) since a power can only be attempted once per round. The fact that it is there indicates some manner of avoiding said restriction on once per round casting.


This is how I am reading it, too. And it would make some sense since they nerfed Cult of Time to only have the chance to rez one model. If all my units can bring back a model - spicy.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 15:41:20


Post by: The Black Adder


Sterling191 wrote:
The Black Adder wrote:

I re-read the article and I can't see where that might be implied. I could be having a stupid moment. Would you mind pointing it out?

From what I read these powers are simply additional powers that are available to cast.


Multiple GK powers are explicitly precluded from affecting a unit more than once per round. That stipulation is unnecessary (and absent from all other Psyker abilities to date) since a power can only be attempted once per round. The fact that it is there indicates some manner of avoiding said restriction on once per round casting.


Thank you. I was definitely having a stupid moment then

It's odd then that there's no similar wording in the thousand sons powers. You would think they'd have a similar design philosophy, perhaps they get some other compensatory buff to their powers.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 15:44:55


Post by: xeen


Sterling191 wrote:
The Black Adder wrote:

I re-read the article and I can't see where that might be implied. I could be having a stupid moment. Would you mind pointing it out?

From what I read these powers are simply additional powers that are available to cast.


Multiple GK powers are explicitly precluded from affecting a unit more than once per round. That stipulation is unnecessary (and absent from all other Psyker abilities to date) since a power can only be attempted once per round. The fact that it is there indicates some manner of avoiding said restriction on once per round casting.


That is the first thing that jumped out at me as well. However, note that the first GK spell doesn't have the restriction language either. I am hoping there is a way to cast the Cult (I don't play GK) spells multiple times. That would actually explain the nerf to the Cult of Time spell by limiting it to only one model. There would be no point to cast the Cult of Knowledge spell more than once, and the other spell would just really be more mortal wounds (maybe stacking penalty to cast, but that would really not be a big deal to 90% of armies).


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 15:45:19


Post by: The Black Adder


 Daedalus81 wrote:


This is how I am reading it, too. And it would make some sense since they nerfed Cult of Time to only have the chance to rez one model. If all my units can bring back a model - spicy.


That would be pretty bonkers. The cult of manipulation would also be pretty bonkers if each casting dealt a sniping style mortal wound and reduced casting by 2. That's no fun at all for enemy psykers.

@xeen. You may not think stacking a penalty like that has much affect against 90% of armies and that may be right, but against the other 10% it's horrendous. The repeated mortal wound snipe also gets pretty obnoxious if you played MSU.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 15:46:39


Post by: xttz


The Black Adder wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
The Black Adder wrote:

I re-read the article and I can't see where that might be implied. I could be having a stupid moment. Would you mind pointing it out?

From what I read these powers are simply additional powers that are available to cast.


Multiple GK powers are explicitly precluded from affecting a unit more than once per round. That stipulation is unnecessary (and absent from all other Psyker abilities to date) since a power can only be attempted once per round. The fact that it is there indicates some manner of avoiding said restriction on once per round casting.


Thank you. I was definitely having a stupid moment then

It's odd then that there's no similar wording in the thousand sons powers. You would think they'd have a similar design philosophy, perhaps they get some other compensatory buff to their powers.


Pretty much every GK unit is a psyker, so it kind of makes sense for them. However TS have lots of non-psyker units making up the bulk of their army so don't need an exception quite as much.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 15:51:01


Post by: The Black Adder


Really? I thought that all the rubric squads had psykers. Unless you Chuck in tzaangor that's essentially your entire army.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 16:04:24


Post by: Arachnofiend


If you play without tzaangors every infantry and HQ choice has a psyker in it, yeah. I think what it might be is that GK gets to cast powers multiple times because they only have one list; KSons have 19 powers to pick from potentially so it's not as big of a deal to stick with normal psychic focus.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 16:08:31


Post by: Sterling191


The Black Adder wrote:
Really? I thought that all the rubric squads had psykers. Unless you Chuck in tzaangor that's essentially your entire army.


GK vehicles (with the exception of transports and flyers) are all Psykers. TS have no such analogs, in addition to the aforementioned mundane infantry (and disc) birbfolk.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 16:57:15


Post by: Daedalus81


The Black Adder wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


This is how I am reading it, too. And it would make some sense since they nerfed Cult of Time to only have the chance to rez one model. If all my units can bring back a model - spicy.


That would be pretty bonkers. The cult of manipulation would also be pretty bonkers if each casting dealt a sniping style mortal wound and reduced casting by 2. That's no fun at all for enemy psykers.

@xeen. You may not think stacking a penalty like that has much affect against 90% of armies and that may be right, but against the other 10% it's horrendous. The repeated mortal wound snipe also gets pretty obnoxious if you played MSU.


I would imagine you would only be able to cast a spell once with each caster, but still can cast multiples so getting enough casters in range of a single character would be pretty cumbersome.

Or we're just reading into the words too much and we'll be restricted. If we are then it sucks for Cult of Time since the WC went up as well - marines can pull in two W3 models a turn without the chance of failing to cast for a modest point cost.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 22:29:21


Post by: EightFoldPath


I've been thinking about this a bit, but the previewed spells not being very exciting isn't as bad news as it might seem.

With Sisters of Battle having a 5+ auto deny sacred rite and a few 4+ auto deny strats out there, then unless TSons/GKnights have a way to pierce/bypass those abilities then you actually want both codexes to focus more on buffing the non psychic aspects of them.

This is why the TSon chaplain is promising. He can't be denied.

And this is why we (both TSons/GKnights) should be hoping to see more "baked in" power for units and more "icing on the cake" power added via strategems/relics/warlord traits with a varied psychic toolkit being the "sprinkle of icing sugar on top".

The absolute worst design for the two codexes will be most of their damage output coming from mortal wounds from spells cast in the psychic phase. Either you'll faceroll someone with no defence against them or you'll come up against the four or five hard counters to them and have a horrible time.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/02 22:33:31


Post by: Billicus


Not to mention, mortal wound spam disproportionately wrecks the gak of elite armies like Custodes


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 09:58:35


Post by: Sunny Side Up


Sterling191 wrote:


Multiple GK powers are explicitly precluded from affecting a unit more than once per round. That stipulation is unnecessary (and absent from all other Psyker abilities to date) since a power can only be attempted once per round. The fact that it is there indicates some manner of avoiding said restriction on once per round casting.


Isn't a matched-play-only restrictions? Similar to only being allowed to use a strat once per phase, not being able to deepstrike turn 1, etc..?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dysartes wrote:

There were parts for Ynnari-ncubi in their box? I remember them getting called out for the Banshees, but not the Drew Carey unit.



Yes, they have alternative heads that are advertised as a Ynnari alternative build on the box. Though unlike the Banshee version, there's no teaser of allegedly different rules coming up.

Spoiler:


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 12:37:58


Post by: Iracundus


EightFoldPath wrote:
I've been thinking about this a bit, but the previewed spells not being very exciting isn't as bad news as it might seem.

With Sisters of Battle having a 5+ auto deny sacred rite and a few 4+ auto deny strats out there, then unless TSons/GKnights have a way to pierce/bypass those abilities then you actually want both codexes to focus more on buffing the non psychic aspects of them.

This is why the TSon chaplain is promising. He can't be denied.

And this is why we (both TSons/GKnights) should be hoping to see more "baked in" power for units and more "icing on the cake" power added via strategems/relics/warlord traits with a varied psychic toolkit being the "sprinkle of icing sugar on top".

The absolute worst design for the two codexes will be most of their damage output coming from mortal wounds from spells cast in the psychic phase. Either you'll faceroll someone with no defence against them or you'll come up against the four or five hard counters to them and have a horrible time.


Well now more info on the TS and there is the Cabbalistic Focus that makes a power undeniable. However that would only work for 1 power and it would drop off if Sorcerors get killed off.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 13:00:33


Post by: EightFoldPath


Iracundus wrote:
Well now more info on the TS and there is the Cabbalistic Focus that makes a power undeniable. However that would only work for 1 power and it would drop off if Sorcerors get killed off.

I just read it and almost swore as I was concerned about the way it is worded, as in 8th not all strategems/etc said the power was denied. For example the World Eaters one says "the effects of that psychic power are negated" but so far all the 9th codex wording I've seen Sisters/Necrons at least says "denied". I would have preferred some belt and bracers style language that said it cannot be denied, negated or prevented in any way, for 8 (but 9 would feel more thematic) cabal points I want to smite a Culexus Assassin!

For generating cabal points, the big question is are you limited to one Ahriman/Exalted/DP per detachment or not? The smaller question, will you be able to take two lesser Sorcerers in a single HQ slot? Alternatively they could come out of nowhere and surprise us with something that lets you take 3 CP cost free patrols Dark Eldar style so you can take multiple cults and more HQs.

The new Cult of Magic warlord trait they just revealed feels like a nerf compared to the old one.

Both of the previewed legion command traits look good though.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 13:11:37


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Cult of magic WT nerf is good for the internal balance of the cults, right now you have very little reason NOT to pick Magic or Duplicity. I'd rather 9 cults be closer in power level to each other.

I'm also hoping that our psychic doesnt stay "20 different ways to do mortal wounds that are all inferior to smite". MW spam isnt fun to play as or against.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 13:17:35


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I really like the Cabal thing. I'm glad they remembered the number 9 as well. Far too few 7's in the DG Codex this time around.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I'm also hoping that our psychic doesnt stay "20 different ways to do mortal wounds that are all inferior to smite". MW spam isnt fun to play as or against.
Don't be so pessimistic. This isn't Age of Sigmar!


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 13:18:39


Post by: Daedalus81


Oh man I am so excited for this. WS2/BS2 termie sorcs finally. Level 3 exalteds that matter.

Sounds like we lose Warptime and Death Hex, but get our own sort of Death Hex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I really like the Cabal thing. I'm glad they remembered the number 9 as well. Far too few 7's in the DG Codex this time around.


If 8 is undeniable I am really curious what 9 might be.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 13:49:16


Post by: Iracundus


EightFoldPath wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
Well now more info on the TS and there is the Cabbalistic Focus that makes a power undeniable. However that would only work for 1 power and it would drop off if Sorcerors get killed off.

I just read it and almost swore as I was concerned about the way it is worded, as in 8th not all strategems/etc said the power was denied. For example the World Eaters one says "the effects of that psychic power are negated" but so far all the 9th codex wording I've seen Sisters/Necrons at least says "denied". I would have preferred some belt and bracers style language that said it cannot be denied, negated or prevented in any way, for 8 (but 9 would feel more thematic) cabal points I want to smite a Culexus Assassin!


I imagine that is loose wording, given GW's track record, unless GW is trying to deliberately draw a distinction between denying a power (i.e. it fails and does not go off at all) vs. being unaffected by its effects (but it does go off, and other models or units could be affected).


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 14:04:49


Post by: xerxeskingofking


plus it requires a full 8 points to pull off, which would be almost all most lists have. I just did a quick count on my (planned) 2k tsons list and it has a grand total of 10 points at full strength, so its not a easy trick to pull off.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 14:14:06


Post by: kirotheavenger


That's 10 points to use in that phase though isn't it. So basically with 10 points you get to use one ability per phase, with the ability to sustain a few casualties throughout.

It's an interesting ability and I don't think I like it.
Unless there's some cheap stuff it won't be usable shy of about 2k and even then only for the first turn or two until casualties take over.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 14:20:06


Post by: xerxeskingofking


 kirotheavenger wrote:
That's 10 points to use in that phase though isn't it. So basically with 10 points you get to use one ability per phase, with the ability to sustain a few casualties throughout.

It's an interesting ability and I don't think I like it.
Unless there's some cheap stuff it won't be usable shy of about 2k and even then only for the first turn or two until casualties take over.


yhea, so that power could be done reliably once, then after that it would rapidly become unusable becuase i dont have enough cabal points, so i'd be doing other tricks form the set of 9, which have cabal point values form 1-9, so i'd always be able to use some of it, somehow.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 14:27:12


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


Cabbalistic Focus is cool. Glad to see GW recognizes that the psychic specialists need a little something extra to stay competitive and interesting. Makes me excited to see what Eldar and hopefully Tyranids may get. I will say it's hilarious though... we're back to resource management mechanics like we had in 7th. Honestly (and I know I'm in the minority here), I liked that system way better than 8th/9th edition psychic powers. Yeah, 7th psychic phase was broken as hell, but it was broken because of some of the powers themselves, not the framework. I'd prefer that framework over the boring and dumbed down psychic phase we've had. It's nuts to me that a BOG standard Exalted Sorcerer and a Primaris Psyker have the same skill at manifesting their powers.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 14:31:12


Post by: kirotheavenger


The framework of 7th psykers had huge problems as well.
Namely, taking 1-2 psykers (such as a Space Marine player might expect to do with a Librarian) was largely useless. Chances were you'd fail to roll the power(s) you wanted, and if you fought against someone like Eldar or Greyknights you could forget ever casting one anyway, since they could just bury you in dispel dice.

The resource management itself was pretty cool, and it worked well in Fantasy. The problem was the massive disparity between factions and the randomly generated powers were both core to the system though (that weren't present in Fantasy though).


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 14:43:54


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Cabbalistic Focus is cool.
I must be tired. I read that as "Cannibalistic Forest".


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 14:52:50


Post by: Dryaktylus


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh man I am so excited for this. WS2/BS2 termie sorcs finally.


This sounds so... odd...


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 14:59:37


Post by: DaPino


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Cabbalistic Focus is cool. Glad to see GW recognizes that the psychic specialists need a little something extra to stay competitive and interesting. Makes me excited to see what Eldar and hopefully Tyranids may get. I will say it's hilarious though... we're back to resource management mechanics like we had in 7th. Honestly (and I know I'm in the minority here), I liked that system way better than 8th/9th edition psychic powers. Yeah, 7th psychic phase was broken as hell, but it was broken because of some of the powers themselves, not the framework. I'd prefer that framework over the boring and dumbed down psychic phase we've had. It's nuts to me that a BOG standard Exalted Sorcerer and a Primaris Psyker have the same skill at manifesting their powers.


I like the fact that they're not just going the "psychic phase but stronger" route but are actually letting us do something different with it.

I share the concern of many that its uses might be limited to one or two things per turn. That being said, I am almost 100% certain that there will be options among the other 7 that aren't as costly; allowing us to get 2-3 uses out of it each turn.
My meta isn't even that psyker-heavy so I don't need to hold onto 8 points most of my games.

How powerful the legion command upgrades are will largely depend on how many we can take I think. I'm hoping either they're all for different units or we can take multiple of each.

My main concern at this point in time are the two 'extended' psychic trees.
Right now, we have 27 powers (Dark hereticus: 6, Change: 6, Tzeentch on DPs: 6, and 9 cult powers). I am very[u] scared about the possibility that we'll have 1 tree with powers and the other tree just being the 9 cult powers.



Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 15:32:11


Post by: xerxeskingofking


DaPino wrote:

I like the fact that they're not just going the "psychic phase but stronger" route but are actually letting us do something different with it.

I share the concern of many that its uses might be limited to one or two things per turn. That being said, I am almost 100% certain that there will be options among the other 7 that aren't as costly; allowing us to get 2-3 uses out of it each turn.
My meta isn't even that psyker-heavy so I don't need to hold onto 8 points most of my games.

How powerful the legion command upgrades are will largely depend on how many we can take I think. I'm hoping either they're all for different units or we can take multiple of each.

My main concern at this point in time are the two 'extended' psychic trees.
Right now, we have 27 powers (Dark hereticus: 6, Change: 6, Tzeentch on DPs: 6, and 9 cult powers). I am very[u] scared about the possibility that we'll have 1 tree with powers and the other tree just being the 9 cult powers.




I think we can be reasonably sure they wouldn't go that route, as they have already said the subfaction powers are in addition to any other powers a caster knows for both GK and TS, so we can chalk them up as being like the cult relics and a extra. it wouldnt make sense to group these together into a single tree anyway, its not like you could choose form it, as your choice is locked by your chosen Cult.

since we dont have 9 different scorcer types to upgrade, we can assume that at least some of those are available to the same unit type and thus give us a few options. I dont see why they would be limited to "One per army", but its possible.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 16:03:25


Post by: MajorWesJanson


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Cabbalistic Focus is cool.
I must be tired. I read that as "Cannibalistic Forest".


Kroot Terrain confirmed!


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 17:56:28


Post by: Arachnofiend


 kirotheavenger wrote:
That's 10 points to use in that phase though isn't it. So basically with 10 points you get to use one ability per phase, with the ability to sustain a few casualties throughout.

It's an interesting ability and I don't think I like it.
Unless there's some cheap stuff it won't be usable shy of about 2k and even then only for the first turn or two until casualties take over.

The article states that the bottom end of points cost is 3, so there are in fact cheap things to spend on.

I'm really excited for this rule, it definitely encourages you to spam out some psykers. Glad they gave us a good KSons article after yesterday's was basically just for the Grey Knights.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 19:34:31


Post by: xeen


I like the Cabal focus. My lists I currently have drawn up will have 15 to 16 depending on if Magnus is fieldable. Even without, my list has 4 HQ psykers, a Tgor Shamon, 3 rubrics and 2 SoT. I personally believe that as long as the 3-5 points abilities are not complete garbage, I will be using 2-3 per phase even later in the game. I mean 1 Exalted and 1 rubric squad produce 4 points, and so if you don't have that on the table you probably already lost. Quite frankly outside turn 4 or 5, if you are not generating like 7 to 10 you probably did already lose the game cause your HQ assets are gone. I mean the minimum three HQ produce is 6, and if you are not bring at least 3 HQs at 2000 with TS, then you should probably revise your list. And who knows, the 9 point one might be bonkers seeing what Admec got.

I think TS are going to have to build around making the most of this advantage in the psychic phase, although I routinely brought 4+ character psyerkers and 3+ Rubric/SoT units already. There is not much more to bring in a TS army lol.

I also hope the new spell sets include a bunch of good de-buff spells. That would kind of buck the tread of the newer dexes which are mostly buff stacking (I know there are a few de-buffs out there but buffs seem to be much more common)


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/03 22:47:14


Post by: Marshal Loss


Love the Cabal mechanic, really cool stuff.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 00:17:02


Post by: flaherty


Just checked the GW page and the TS Start Collecting is "sold out online."

Any thoughts on what's likely to be in the Combat Patrol? So far, the MSRP value of the CPs seems to range from $206-$230.

This struck me as the likely config:

Ahriman - $40
Rubrics - $59
Exalted Sorcerers - $60
Tzaangors - $44 + Upgrades Sprues $25

Spell heavy, thematic, the sorcerers haven't been in a value box yet, and it's $229 all-in. Maybe you swap Ahriman for the Hexfire HQ, and the sorcerers for Scarabs? The prices are basically the same?

Another approach could be double Tzaangors + Rubrics + Scarabs + an HQ in an attempt to mimic the Death Guard box?

Most of the boxes have also had a centerpiece figure so I wouldn't be shocked if a Helbrute ($54) replaced one of the elite units. The Heldrake ($74) is also possible given that the similarly-priced impulsor is in some of the Marine boxes.

Any educated guesses?



Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 01:02:56


Post by: Marshal Loss


 flaherty wrote:
Just checked the GW page and the TS Start Collecting is "sold out online."

Any thoughts on what's likely to be in the Combat Patrol? So far, the MSRP value of the CPs seems to range from $206-$230.

This struck me as the likely config:

Ahriman - $40
Rubrics - $59
Exalted Sorcerers - $60
Tzaangors - $44 + Upgrades Sprues $25

Spell heavy, thematic, the sorcerers haven't been in a value box yet, and it's $229 all-in. Maybe you swap Ahriman for the Hexfire HQ, and the sorcerers for Scarabs? The prices are basically the same?

Another approach could be double Tzaangors + Rubrics + Scarabs + an HQ in an attempt to mimic the Death Guard box?

Most of the boxes have also had a centerpiece figure so I wouldn't be shocked if a Helbrute ($54) replaced one of the elite units. The Heldrake ($74) is also possible given that the similarly-priced impulsor is in some of the Marine boxes.

Any educated guesses?



That configuration would be significantly over c. 500 points, which is what all of the combat patrols aim to be - extremely unlikely.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 01:03:40


Post by: odorofdeath


stupid question, will I be able to grab the codex by itself or is it only available as a bundle deal with this GK/TS box set?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 01:08:22


Post by: alextroy


It is not in the box at all.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 02:27:04


Post by: Daedalus81


 Dryaktylus wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh man I am so excited for this. WS2/BS2 termie sorcs finally.


This sounds so... odd...


It's a behind enemy lines unit for me. Connecting more often will help clear the stray units in his space and the extra wound will stave off snipers ( actual and otherwise ).


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 06:00:36


Post by: Marshal Loss


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Dryaktylus wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh man I am so excited for this. WS2/BS2 termie sorcs finally.


This sounds so... odd...


It's a behind enemy lines unit for me. Connecting more often will help clear the stray units in his space and the extra wound will stave off snipers ( actual and otherwise ).


The Terminator Sorcerer won't be getting an extra wound over what he currently has. Only Rubricae & Scarab Occult will be gaining the extra wound.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 07:14:10


Post by: wuestenfux


 Marshal Loss wrote:
Love the Cabal mechanic, really cool stuff.

If everybody ''loves'' some mechanism in 40k, something will definitely go wrong.
Its disturbing if you ask me.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 08:53:46


Post by: kirotheavenger


It's another layer of rules, even assuming it's all lovely and balanced, that's a problem.
But it's also par for the course for 40k right now.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 09:52:39


Post by: Sunny Side Up


Seems simple enough. Cabal is gonna be their "mono-trait"? As those go, simple resource you gain each turn and spend to buff up singular spells, it seems a lot more straightforward and (in theory) easier to balance than, say, all the AdMech stuff or even Marine Doctrines, which layer over a bunch of units, profiles, etc.. .



Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 13:48:50


Post by: Dysartes


...I now want a unit of Grey Knights mounted on anti-grav surfboards.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 14:00:54


Post by: Sacredroach


 Dysartes wrote:
...I now want a unit of Grey Knights mounted on anti-grav surfboards.


Carefully removing Crowe from his Tactical Rocks leads to a guy in a surfboard pose.

Just saying...


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 14:07:44


Post by: Audustum


So:

1. Special relics in place of Chapter Master upgrades maybe? (Visions of the Augurim/Gifts of Prescience)

2. Dominus tree is back.

3. Tides are back.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 14:27:13


Post by: Daedalus81


 Marshal Loss wrote:

The Terminator Sorcerer won't be getting an extra wound over what he currently has. Only Rubricae & Scarab Occult will be gaining the extra wound.


Doh my brain turned 5 attacks into 5 wounds. Ah well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/08/04/the-grey-knights-can-see-your-reinforcements-coming-with-the-new-codexs-predictive-powers/

Grey Knights


Minimum 6" charge is interesting. No flubbing those important short charges. Not sure it helps much with deepstrike charging, which is probably good.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 14:41:56


Post by: Audustum


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:

The Terminator Sorcerer won't be getting an extra wound over what he currently has. Only Rubricae & Scarab Occult will be gaining the extra wound.


Doh my brain turned 5 attacks into 5 wounds. Ah well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/08/04/the-grey-knights-can-see-your-reinforcements-coming-with-the-new-codexs-predictive-powers/

Grey Knights


Minimum 6" charge is interesting. No flubbing those important short charges. Not sure it helps much with deepstrike charging, which is probably good.


Boosts no-re-roll DS charge to like 38% and re-roll charge to above 60%


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 15:23:34


Post by: Daedalus81


It will be interesting to see what they keep for rerolls and bonuses.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 15:31:18


Post by: Audustum


 Daedalus81 wrote:
It will be interesting to see what they keep for rerolls and bonuses.


It will but you'll always have the CP re-roll to make one of the charges fairly reliable.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 16:14:41


Post by: EightFoldPath


Assuming you have to buy these pre battle then Omen of Incursion is too situational while Gem of Inoktu is something you will probably use in every game. I guess if Omen is 5pts and Gem is 30pts that might make me re-think this though.

If it is an additional Tide rather than a replacement Tide then that is a good flexibility tool.

It could be very powerful given how much "free" deepstrike they have. It depends if GK keep their re-roll charges warlord trait, lose it or even get a source of +1 or +2 to charge from somewhere else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Helpfuly reminded "somewhere else" that we already have the points for these.

The Visions are
Augury of Aggression-20 points
Heroisms Favor-15 points
A Noble Death-20 Points
Omen of Incursion-30 points (Once per Battle Auspex Scan)
Presaged Paralysis-15 points
Foretelling of the Locus-30 points

The Gifts of the Prescient are
True Name Shard-10 Points
Temporal Bombs-15 points
Servant of the Throne-20 points
Deluminator of Majesty-15 points
Gem of Inoktar-15 points (Once per battle +2 for all dominus spells cast that phase)
Severance Bolt-30 points

So the one I think is better is cheaper!


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 16:49:09


Post by: Tarvitz77


EightFoldPath wrote:
Assuming you have to buy these pre battle then Omen of Incursion is too situational while Gem of Inoktu is something you will probably use in every game. I guess if Omen is 5pts and Gem is 30pts that might make me re-think this though.

If it is an additional Tide rather than a replacement Tide then that is a good flexibility tool.

It could be very powerful given how much "free" deepstrike they have. It depends if GK keep their re-roll charges warlord trait, lose it or even get a source of +1 or +2 to charge from somewhere else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Helpfuly reminded "somewhere else" that we already have the points for these.

The Visions are
Augury of Aggression-20 points
Heroisms Favor-15 points
A Noble Death-20 Points
Omen of Incursion-30 points (Once per Battle Auspex Scan)
Presaged Paralysis-15 points
Foretelling of the Locus-30 points

The Gifts of the Prescient are
True Name Shard-10 Points
Temporal Bombs-15 points
Servant of the Throne-20 points
Deluminator of Majesty-15 points
Gem of Inoktar-15 points (Once per battle +2 for all dominus spells cast that phase)
Severance Bolt-30 points

So the one I think is better is cheaper!


I don't think the Omen of Incursion is too bad. No hit penalties on it and it's not as if the unit that shoots has to be anywhere near the character that has the ability. I think most of the shooty grey knight units will be core so as long as your opponent has a unit that will arrive as reinforcements I think you should get to use it in a game.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 18:57:12


Post by: Red Corsair


Exactly, I actually think the Omen of Incusion is way stronger in 9th. No hit penalty, character doesn't even need to be near the reserve unit and remember this could be in addition to overwatch later on the same unit.

The gem seems OK, but if they retain their inate +1 to cast and low cost powers, this seems like it could just be more win on a single turn for a single caster. But it's also strong.

Seems as though the tides are changing? Which hopefully means that 2 damage smite BS is gone? What a lazy mechanic that was, I know GK needed help, but making them rely on smite spam was a crap fix. With the increased attacks and wounds and more consistent charging it is looking like they will be a pretty obvious assault army which they always should have been.

I mean, they are knights lol.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/04 23:35:40


Post by: Lanlaorn


It's Auspex Scan that you need to spend 30 points for during list building rather than 1 CP flexibly when it's useful.

Unless a meta evolves where every game your opponent will definitely deep strike something then it's pretty bad.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 13:06:57


Post by: Redemption


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/08/05/find-out-which-grey-knights-units-boast-the-biggest-gains-in-the-new-codex/

New article up. Looks like GK units are going back to having fixed psychic powers per unit like they did in 5th.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 13:20:08


Post by: Quasistellar


 Redemption wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/08/05/find-out-which-grey-knights-units-boast-the-biggest-gains-in-the-new-codex/

New article up. Looks like GK units are going back to having fixed psychic powers per unit like they did in 5th.


And it's a bit like some Sigmar units having dedicated spells.

Looks like Astral Aim got changed significantly.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 13:28:22


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


They removed the ability to ignore LoS from astral aim. Which is great, because hiding a unit of purgators with psilencers and using astral aim on them to DPS units to death without any drawback was pretty cheesy.

Hopefully they'll do the same to Hive Guard with Impalers.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 13:54:00


Post by: SamusDrake


OMG WHAT IS THIS?



What have they done to that poor sod? He can't go into battle in a goddamn baby sling!

When did this happen? How have I not seen this before???



Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 13:57:42


Post by: JimmyWolf87


SamusDrake wrote:
OMG WHAT IS THIS?

What have they done to that poor sod? He can't go into battle in a goddamn baby sling!

When did this happen? How have I not seen this before???



Rubbish. That's what it is. It's also been like that since it's original release.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 14:12:40


Post by: SamusDrake


JimmyWolf87 wrote:


Rubbish. That's what it is. It's also been like that since it's original release.


Seriously, I haven't laughed so much in months. This is awesome, stupid, outrageous and adorable all at once.

GW should win an award for absurdity.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 14:21:17


Post by: H.B.M.C.


The miniature is 11 years old.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 14:21:23


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


SamusDrake wrote:
OMG WHAT IS THIS?



What have they done to that poor sod? He can't go into battle in a goddamn baby sling!

When did this happen? How have I not seen this before???


It's the Dreadknight.
They sometimes go helmetless, too.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 14:25:23


Post by: spiralingcadaver


Wait, I thought I missed some tongue in cheek thing here, was this honestly never having encountered this model before?

And yeah, I feel like so many mecha descended from the ALIENS power loader completely fail to recognize that what makes this badass is that she basically improvised her space forklift training to fight a big bad in something not at all meant for it, and that an unarmored cockpit has basically no defensive value but she still won with it.

Especially in a setting that already has fully enclosed pilot designs (knights, titans, dreads kinda, even the lowly armored sentinel) so it isn't about no one having come up with the idea in the setting, it's just dumb, idk.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 14:29:55


Post by: JimmyWolf87


I will say that the gun variant is marginally less cack than the sword one. Just.

Perhaps they can repurpose the fluff in future iterations so that it's actually a full squad of 5 Terminators who's armour can slot together to form one super-Dreadotronzord.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 14:32:53


Post by: kirotheavenger


I think the sword is a separate upgrade, it always has the two wrist guns.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 14:33:43


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


JimmyWolf87 wrote:
I will say that the gun variant is marginally less cack than the sword one. Just.

Perhaps they can repurpose the fluff in future iterations so that it's actually a full squad of 5 Terminators who's armour can slot together to form one super-Dreadotronzord.


And then five of them can combine to form the DreadDreadtronzord


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 14:37:05


Post by: JimmyWolf87


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
I will say that the gun variant is marginally less cack than the sword one. Just.

Perhaps they can repurpose the fluff in future iterations so that it's actually a full squad of 5 Terminators who's armour can slot together to form one super-Dreadotronzord.


And then five of them can combine to form the DreadDreadtronzord


Now slow down there sonny; they're not T'au!


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 14:40:32


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


JimmyWolf87 wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
I will say that the gun variant is marginally less cack than the sword one. Just.

Perhaps they can repurpose the fluff in future iterations so that it's actually a full squad of 5 Terminators who's armour can slot together to form one super-Dreadotronzord.


And then five of them can combine to form the DreadDreadtronzord


Now slow down there sonny; they're not T'au!


No, but clearly the Grey Knights need their own combining Mecha to defeat the inevetiable deamon-posessed Khornetron of the T'au.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 14:40:51


Post by: the_scotsman


JimmyWolf87 wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
I will say that the gun variant is marginally less cack than the sword one. Just.

Perhaps they can repurpose the fluff in future iterations so that it's actually a full squad of 5 Terminators who's armour can slot together to form one super-Dreadotronzord.


And then five of them can combine to form the DreadDreadtronzord


Now slow down there sonny; they're not T'au!


At this point space marine in a space marine in a space marine would be a step down in the flanderization of the marine design.

Better than infenestrators with light heavy assault bolt rifstols (a brand new kind of bolt rifle that fires bolt pistols) and crotch mounted heavy stubbers.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 15:07:09


Post by: Lanlaorn


In setting the Dreadknight pilot is already wearing the nigh-invulnerable Terminator armor, aka "Tactical Dreadnought Armor" so he's already fantastically protected but he needs to be able to lift and swing a 10 foot sword to hit that Greater Daemon.

It's fine, let it go.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 15:18:34


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


SamusDrake wrote:
OMG WHAT IS THIS?



What have they done to that poor sod? He can't go into battle in a goddamn baby sling!

When did this happen? How have I not seen this before???


Ever since 5th ed? It's not a new model, and people have been mocking it since its release.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 15:25:39


Post by: dreadblade


I actually really like this



Especially the version with the helmet (because GK helmets always look good).


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 15:32:37


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


Lanlaorn wrote:
In setting the Dreadknight pilot is already wearing the nigh-invulnerable Terminator armor, aka "Tactical Dreadnought Armor" so he's already fantastically protected but he needs to be able to lift and swing a 10 foot sword to hit that Greater Daemon.

It's fine, let it go.


Yeah he's supposed to fight a Greater Daemon, which can kill a man in Terminator Armour with a single punch, because they're a bloody Greater Demon. Also, none of that helps if he doesn't put on a helmet.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 15:48:42


Post by: JimmyWolf87


Lanlaorn wrote:
In setting the Dreadknight pilot is already wearing the nigh-invulnerable Terminator armor, aka "Tactical Dreadnought Armor" so he's already fantastically protected but he needs to be able to lift and swing a 10 foot sword to hit that Greater Daemon.

It's fine, let it go.


The concept is 'fine' (it's logically a sensible bit of kit, even if I'd argue that it's thematically problematic that they'd utilise it). It's more the execution of the design that just makes it look silly. There are any number of ways that the core idea could have been put out (even if it was just a 'bigger pattern dreadnaught') and it retain the purpose yet somehow that is what they settled on.

Taste is subjective; I'm not going to argue against the logical 'need' for the introduction of that model in the range (even if, again, I don't think it's thematic), nor am I going to say anyone who does like it is wrong. Personally I just find that model utterly daft (and has a long history of ridicule towards it) and boiling down the way the GK tackle larger daemons to "What if we just make a sword but...get this...bigger!" frankly quite childish or, at best, leaning into a 'Mecha vs Kaiju' vision which is fun and cool enough in its own way but just never felt right for the Grey Knights, especially when there's another very obvious 40K faction to satisfy that schtick.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 15:53:38


Post by: H.B.M.C.


JimmyWolf87 wrote:
The concept is 'fine' (it's logically a sensible bit of kit, even if I'd argue that it's thematically problematic that they'd utilise it). It's more the execution of the design that just makes it look silly. There are any number of ways that the core idea could have been put out (even if it was just a 'bigger pattern dreadnaught') and it retain the purpose yet somehow that is what they settled on.
I've brought it up before - in this thread already, I believe - but the Dreadknight was't always going to have the Terminator just hanging there like a giant armoured baby carrier.

Like the new Nundam suits, the pilot was going to be more integrated, with his legs partially within the legs of the Dreadknight:


If the model looked like that I doubt it would get anywhere near the ridicule that it has received for the past decade.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 16:03:33


Post by: spiralingcadaver


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Like the new Nundam suits, the pilot was going to be more integrated, with his legs partially within the legs of the Dreadknight:
Spoiler:


If the model looked like that I doubt it would get anywhere near the ridicule that it has received for the past decade.
It looks like this was closer to a dreadnought (or now invictor) scale? To me it looks like they maybe did the baby carrier when they made the model larger? I think the frame being so large also adds to the silly feeling.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 16:11:53


Post by: JimmyWolf87


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
The concept is 'fine' (it's logically a sensible bit of kit, even if I'd argue that it's thematically problematic that they'd utilise it). It's more the execution of the design that just makes it look silly. There are any number of ways that the core idea could have been put out (even if it was just a 'bigger pattern dreadnaught') and it retain the purpose yet somehow that is what they settled on.
I've brought it up before - in this thread already, I believe - but the Dreadknight was't always going to have the Terminator just hanging there like a giant armoured baby carrier.

Like the new Nundam suits, the pilot was going to be more integrated, with his legs partially within the legs of the Dreadknight:

If the model looked like that I doubt it would get anywhere near the ridicule that it has received for the past decade.


I agree; it wouldn't have had the unfortunate 'baby carrier' moniker and would probably have much more of an acceptance.

For me though, the 'baby carrier' is just the icing on the cake for a concept that doesn't work for in the first place for the Grey Knights; it's a silly visual but not necessarily the core reason I don't like it (and I think the look of the thing in that original artwork is likewise pretty crap, just less so). It's an amalgamation of things and I just outright don't enjoy the 'mecha' or 'Ripley-Loader' aspect of the design in general, especially when it has an actual hand built in to hold a sword when it could quite easily just have a blade fixed into the limb with the same effect and look a whole lot less silly.

I know we're treading over old ground for this thread but the ADB reasoning for why he doesn't like it, I'm wholly on board with; it negates the inherent 'heroic' aspect of the GK, even if they should logically find a means to go 'toe to toe' with a greater daemon; it's not like the Imperium of Man is a regime of efficiency and devoid of dogmatic baggage.

Ultimately GW are a miniature company, I'm not going to complain when they make new toys. I just wish, in this instance, it didn't look so much like an actual child's toy.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 16:17:39


Post by: SamusDrake


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Ever since 5th ed? It's not a new model, and people have been mocking it since its release.


I'm still catching up with the tabletop hobby since returning in 2017 and after being absent from the tabletop hobby for over a decade.

To be honest its made my day.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 17:24:42


Post by: cuda1179


Okay, okay. Let's get past the looks. Let's talk new rules for the Dreadknight. +1 attack, +1 wound, 4+ invulnerable save is pretty nice. I have to wonder if the HQ knight will have a 3+ invulnerable?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 17:28:47


Post by: Argive


I find it weird how GW thinks having 5 -4 D6 dmg attacks is better than 10 -2 2D damage attacks against big targets..

D6 damage is pants in CC when compared to the likes of Dark lances or Cognis that's being handed out like candy to a shooty platform..
Its the same reason nobody ever takes swords on their wraithlords lol


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 17:43:48


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


SamusDrake wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Ever since 5th ed? It's not a new model, and people have been mocking it since its release.


I'm still catching up with the tabletop hobby since returning in 2017 and after being absent from the tabletop hobby for over a decade.

To be honest its made my day.

That's fair. It is rather meme worthy.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 17:45:34


Post by: EightFoldPath


 cuda1179 wrote:
I have to wonder if the HQ knight will have a 3+ invulnerable?

No. At the minimum from these two codexes, I am expecting no sources of 3++ to be available on data sheets (and I'm counting 4++s with a +1 to the roll in this, so All Is Dust will be changed to something completely different or only works on armour save rolls) and 3++ to be very hard to achieve via strategems, spells or relics and quite limited in some way.

So far the exceptions to this I can think of are the DE Archon and a once per battle SM relic, any others? Sisters 'feel' like they probably have something.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 17:59:47


Post by: cuda1179


EightFoldPath wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
I have to wonder if the HQ knight will have a 3+ invulnerable?

No. At the minimum from these two codexes, I am expecting no sources of 3++ to be available on data sheets (and I'm counting 4++s with a +1 to the roll in this, so All Is Dust will be changed to something completely different or only works on armour save rolls) and 3++ to be very hard to achieve via strategems, spells or relics and quite limited in some way.

So far the exceptions to this I can think of are the DE Archon and a once per battle SM relic, any others? Sisters 'feel' like they probably have something.


Custodes have troops with 3+ invulnerable.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 18:50:33


Post by: xerxeskingofking


 cuda1179 wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
I have to wonder if the HQ knight will have a 3+ invulnerable?

No. At the minimum from these two codexes, I am expecting no sources of 3++ to be available on data sheets (and I'm counting 4++s with a +1 to the roll in this, so All Is Dust will be changed to something completely different or only works on armour save rolls) and 3++ to be very hard to achieve via strategems, spells or relics and quite limited in some way.

So far the exceptions to this I can think of are the DE Archon and a once per battle SM relic, any others? Sisters 'feel' like they probably have something.


Custodes have troops with 3+ invulnerable.


Objection! Those are 8th edition rules not yet updated, 8fold was listing 9th ed codexes


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 18:55:07


Post by: Red Corsair


 cuda1179 wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
I have to wonder if the HQ knight will have a 3+ invulnerable?

No. At the minimum from these two codexes, I am expecting no sources of 3++ to be available on data sheets (and I'm counting 4++s with a +1 to the roll in this, so All Is Dust will be changed to something completely different or only works on armour save rolls) and 3++ to be very hard to achieve via strategems, spells or relics and quite limited in some way.

So far the exceptions to this I can think of are the DE Archon and a once per battle SM relic, any others? Sisters 'feel' like they probably have something.


Custodes have troops with 3+ invulnerable.


There is a pretty clear trend away from invulns that are better then 4+ in 9th edition. The only exception have come from relics or special characters. Pretty sure GK won't have a 3++ available, even on Draigo if I were a betting man, who will more likely receive a shrug from his shield like the indomitus captain did.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 19:00:48


Post by: Nightlord1987


I think Centurion Warsuits are even worse. Like a Russian doll.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 19:16:49


Post by: the_scotsman


 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I think Centurion Warsuits are even worse. Like a Russian doll.


Yeah they really call attention to the fact that absolutely no suit of space marine armor would ever actually work IRL. They went just like 5 degrees over the silly line with cents and it completely broke the usual 'eh, rule of cool dont worry about it' that space marine armor usually skates by on.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 20:23:04


Post by: Daedalus81


 Argive wrote:
I find it weird how GW thinks having 5 -4 D6 dmg attacks is better than 10 -2 2D damage attacks against big targets..

D6 damage is pants in CC when compared to the likes of Dark lances or Cognis that's being handed out like candy to a shooty platform..
Its the same reason nobody ever takes swords on their wraithlords lol


Did you forget strength? The GMDK is a measly S6 meaning..

10 * .833 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 2.8

And

5 * .833 * .666 * .5 * 3.5 = 4.9





Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 20:35:08


Post by: EightFoldPath


xerxeskingofking wrote:

Objection! Those are 8th edition rules not yet updated, 8fold was listing 9th ed codexes

Sustained!

 Red Corsair wrote:
There is a pretty clear trend away from invulns that are better then 4+ in 9th edition. The only exception have come from relics or special characters. Pretty sure GK won't have a 3++ available, even on Draigo if I were a betting man, who will more likely receive a shrug from his shield like the indomitus captain did.

Layered defences seem more likely. Special characters might get one from -1 damage, half damage, -1 to hit, can't re-roll hits, -1 to wound, can't re-roll wounds, full shrug/fnp, MW shrug/fnp. I've just remembered one of my other predictions for NDKs, -1 damage like dreads. Although maybe being exposed like they are they don't get the dread -1 damage.

Just thought about the Aegis, 5+++ for mortal wounds is very handy for perils. I always found the anti perils rules in Thousand Sons and Tzeentch Daemons a bit strange, you would think the safe 'nerds' of the Grey Knights would have those rules, while the wild sorcerers who believe in power/knowledge at any cost would take the perils and risk of dying in exchange for more oomph.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 20:47:34


Post by: PiñaColada


Yeah, but Makari didn't become the most powerful little git in the galaxy just so some 'umies could forget his 2++ invuln


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/05 21:42:34


Post by: The Black Adder


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I find it weird how GW thinks having 5 -4 D6 dmg attacks is better than 10 -2 2D damage attacks against big targets..

D6 damage is pants in CC when compared to the likes of Dark lances or Cognis that's being handed out like candy to a shooty platform..
Its the same reason nobody ever takes swords on their wraithlords lol


Did you forget strength? The GMDK is a measly S6 meaning..

10 * .833 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 2.8

And

5 * .833 * .666 * .5 * 3.5 = 4.9





D6 damage will also be beneficial against models that reduce damage by one.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 14:00:15


Post by: alextroy


New updates to the Thousand Sons, specifically Rubric Marines and Scarab Occult Terminators.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/08/06/rubric-marines-and-scarab-occult-terminators-are-turning-everything-to-dust-with-the-rules-in-codex-thousand-sons/


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 14:07:23


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Thousand Sons are now more like machines than necrons.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 14:18:04


Post by: Virules


I am really sad about no news about any changes to Magnus.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 14:21:02


Post by: deTox91


 Virules wrote:
I am really sad about no news about any changes to Magnus.

not even any snarky sentence like "and wait to see what Big Red himself can do" in the article, makes me slightly worried that he won't be getting much and won't really compare to Morty, specialy I can't think on any thematic way to make him more durable other than a 2++ which will never happen mmh mmh.
I guess we'll find out tomorrow


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 14:24:22


Post by: tneva82


 Argive wrote:
I find it weird how GW thinks having 5 -4 D6 dmg attacks is better than 10 -2 2D damage attacks against big targets..

D6 damage is pants in CC when compared to the likes of Dark lances or Cognis that's being handed out like candy to a shooty platform..
Its the same reason nobody ever takes swords on their wraithlords lol


Well -3 but doing math vs knight gave 6 wounds and spare with big strike, tad under 3 with 10 attacks


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 14:49:00


Post by: Daedalus81




Very happy with all of this.

I wonder what happens to the Mutalith when the Infernal Master seems to be taking up it's design space.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 15:01:06


Post by: The Newman


 the_scotsman wrote:
 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I think Centurion Warsuits are even worse. Like a Russian doll.


Yeah they really call attention to the fact that absolutely no suit of space marine armor would ever actually work IRL. They went just like 5 degrees over the silly line with cents and it completely broke the usual 'eh, rule of cool dont worry about it' that space marine armor usually skates by on.


I'm with Rogal Dorn on this; Centurions aren't even in the same ballpark as the Dread Knight.

(I do realize that I'm distinctly in the minority on liking the Centurion models, but I really do like them a lot. If GW had just updated the basic Marine kits and put out several more Centurion variants instead of all the Primaris malarkey I'd have been a happy camper.)

Back on topic, not updating the basic GK marine kit is a bafflingly bad decision.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 15:49:18


Post by: Prometheum5


The cap on cultist/Tzangor units vs. Rubric units seems like a bigger deal with TSons than it was for Death Guard but I like the push to make Chaos Marines more a part of a Chaos Marine army.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 15:50:04


Post by: xeen


So far I am happy with what the TS are getting. Can't wait until we can get basically all the details tomorrow. I am a little surprised there weren't more leaks ahead of the release as it seems for other armies there was a bit of leaks of things like box data sheets (only GK are known) etc. Guess I will have to be patient like a kid on Christmas eve.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 19:02:11


Post by: Daedalus81


 xeen wrote:
So far I am happy with what the TS are getting. Can't wait until we can get basically all the details tomorrow. I am a little surprised there weren't more leaks ahead of the release as it seems for other armies there was a bit of leaks of things like box data sheets (only GK are known) etc. Guess I will have to be patient like a kid on Christmas eve.


There's enough info for me to play know given we know points. Spells are still fudge, but it will be close enough.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 19:05:04


Post by: Audustum


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 xeen wrote:
So far I am happy with what the TS are getting. Can't wait until we can get basically all the details tomorrow. I am a little surprised there weren't more leaks ahead of the release as it seems for other armies there was a bit of leaks of things like box data sheets (only GK are known) etc. Guess I will have to be patient like a kid on Christmas eve.


There's enough info for me to play know given we know points. Spells are still fudge, but it will be close enough.


Spells, Warlord Traits, Relics and most the strats. There's a surprising amount missing still. Imagine fighting Drukhari without Drazhar's total re-rolls and the Competitive Edge Succubus. It's really different!


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 19:28:04


Post by: Arachnofiend


Feel like All Is Dust was left unchanged because of the assumption that you'll be popping Unwavering Phalanx on your Rubrick every round... I'd really like to run multiple squads of Rubrics but with these rules it seems like a single very large squad is probably what you want. Maybe one max squad of Rubrics and one max squad of SOTs so you can fill out the rest of your troops with cultists.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 19:34:10


Post by: EightFoldPath


The AID change was the one I feared most. Still workable depending on strats, the 1 CP (5 man unit version) -1 damage strat looks like it could win games by earning 5 points of your primary on turn 4 or turn 5.

The 2 dmg swords on Scarabs look very good for killing 4~6 wound characters.

I like the SRCs staying 1 damage, so if they are teched vs. 1 dmg the swords do work or if they are teched vs. 2 dmg the guns do work. That is kind of why I'm not too sad about AID combined with the new strat as it allows you to tech vs 1 dmg and 2 dmg at the same time.

 Prometheum5 wrote:
The cap on cultist/Tzangor units vs. Rubric units seems like a bigger deal with TSons than it was for Death Guard but I like the push to make Chaos Marines more a part of a Chaos Marine army.

I think someone has asked on facebook or twitter and GW have confirmed the Shaman isn't a BRAY unit, not sure if Englightened are either. It is possible only the footslogging Tzaangor are restricted. If so, 3 Scarab units means 3 Tzaangor units.

If Tzaangors remain unchanged or barely changed stats and rules wise, they look good at 7 points each.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 20:29:36


Post by: Sasori


To the Tzaangor Bray unit question:



Unless they are wrong here, which is possible, looks like the Troop Tzaangors are the only models that have the bray keyword.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/06 22:24:30


Post by: xeen


 Sasori wrote:
To the Tzaangor Bray unit question:



Unless they are wrong here, which is possible, looks like the Troop Tzaangors are the only models that have the bray keyword.


That is really good. I mean most players are going to use at least one rubric and one SoT in most lists as those units are just good. So don't really think the limitation is going to have much impact other than niche lists like the one I use to run which was my AOS in 40k (all models could be used in both games Daemons and Tzgors). .


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 01:04:47


Post by: Arachnofiend


If it's just normal Tzaangors then the minimum number of Rubricae you must field is either 1 squad of Rubrics (+1 cultists/+1 tzaangors to fill out the battalion) or 2 squads of Terminators (2 cultists/tzaangors and 1 of the other). I'd suspect/hope that most Thousand Sons lists are going to want one each of Rubrics and SOT's which is even more flexible.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 01:37:00


Post by: Argive


The Black Adder wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I find it weird how GW thinks having 5 -4 D6 dmg attacks is better than 10 -2 2D damage attacks against big targets..

D6 damage is pants in CC when compared to the likes of Dark lances or Cognis that's being handed out like candy to a shooty platform..
Its the same reason nobody ever takes swords on their wraithlords lol


Did you forget strength? The GMDK is a measly S6 meaning..

10 * .833 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 2.8

And

5 * .833 * .666 * .5 * 3.5 = 4.9





D6 damage will also be beneficial against models that reduce damage by one.


Ohh my bad. I thought he was Str7.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 09:30:24


Post by: dreadblade


Sold out online already

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/40k-Hexfire-2021-eng

My pre-pre-order through my FLGS is on it's way though


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 09:43:04


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


Just noticed, did Crowe put his cape on backwards? The red, decorative part should be on the outside.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 10:16:47


Post by: Dawnbringer


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Just noticed, did Crowe put his cape on backwards? The red, decorative part should be on the outside.


Should it though? I look at it like how the inside lining of a suit is often more colourful than the outside.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 10:49:08


Post by: a_typical_hero


Reviews for both codizes are up on Goonhammer.

TL;Dr
Grey Knights are best with Strikes and Dreadknights, while the rest looks overpriced.

Thousand Sons are slightly under Death Guard in terms on rules quality and assumed power.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 12:32:18


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Sasori wrote:
To the Tzaangor Bray unit question:



Unless they are wrong here, which is possible, looks like the Troop Tzaangors are the only models that have the bray keyword.

I really hope the Warhammer Facebook account isn't wrong, because if it is then GW would look even worst than it is right now following the Warhamer+ debacle.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 12:37:26


Post by: H.B.M.C.


The Bray thing is mentioned in this battle report which shows off some new things. Mutalith sounds awful - four ways to cause Mortal Wounds in slightly different ways. Yay.

Rest sounds fun.








Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 13:23:18


Post by: Matrindur


Combat Patrols for both Thousand Sons and Grey Knights from their Codex


Thousand Sons just get an additional unit of Tzaangors compared to the Hexfire set

Grey Knights switch out 5 PA ones against Terminators and don't get Crowe but a Librarian instead




Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 13:45:22


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


Awfully little Thousand Sons in that Thousand Sons Combat Patrol, aye? Less than a quarter of the whole thing.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 13:48:46


Post by: Gert


At least there's a reason to buy more than one. I still don't get why Ahriman was put in the Start Collecting box.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 13:50:32


Post by: Dudeface


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Awfully little Thousand Sons in that Thousand Sons Combat Patrol, aye? Less than a quarter of the whole thing.


Depends how you look at it, 1/4 of the models 2/3 of the units and 2/3 to 3/4 of the points in thousand sons marines, although I feel birb boys are as much part of the "thousand sons army" even if they are not thousand sons themselves.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 13:50:44


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


 Gert wrote:
At least there's a reason to buy more than one. I still don't get why Ahriman was put in the Start Collecting box.


It's a DISCOUNT box, so GW doesn't really want you to buy more than one, because they make slightly smaller profit on them compared to separate kits. That's why.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 13:52:33


Post by: Gert


I mean the SC boxes were marketed as army starters or good value army additions and I can't think of another SC box that included a Named Character. The Tsons SC was an anomaly.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 13:53:42


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


 Gert wrote:
I mean the SC boxes were marketed as army starters or good value army additions and I can't think of another SC box that included a Named Character. The Tsons SC was an anomaly.


They also did that with the DG Combat Patrol later.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 13:54:19


Post by: Prometheum5


Old TS Start Collecting plus the new Combat Patrol seems like a decent spread to start from if you can still find the SC.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 13:57:06


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


 Prometheum5 wrote:
Old TS Start Collecting plus the new Combat Patrol seems like a decent spread to start from if you can still find the SC.


You can it right now from eBay for just $795.00+$125.00 shipping! What a bargain!


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 13:58:32


Post by: Gert


It's still on the Webstore and I've seen a few Independent stores with them. Ahriman, new Wizard, 10 Rubrics, 5 Scarab Occult, and 30 Tzaangors isn't awful for about £150 (assuming the CP box will be £85).


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 14:05:21


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I think the Deathwatch one came with their Special Character. Could be wrong.

Anyway, that's a lot of Tzaangors in the 1KSons one. Would have preferred 10 Rubrics in place of 10 of the Tzaangors. Still, they're giving you full upgrade sprues for both. That's nice I suppose.

Does anyone have the new stats for the Maulerfiend, Forgefiend and Hell-Turkey? They're the ones I'm most interested in as that shows us what CSM will get.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 14:38:00


Post by: alextroy


Gert wrote:At least there's a reason to buy more than one. I still don't get why Ahriman was put in the Start Collecting box.
Not that big of a mystery. The choices for HQ were Magnus, Ahriman, the 3 Exalted Sorcerers, a generic Daemon Price, or a generic Sorcerer in Terminator Armor. Once you passed on the Sorcerer, the most economical choice was Ahriman.

Now they have the new character model to stick in the Combat Patrol instead of Ahriman.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 14:38:36


Post by: flaherty


Just from a monetary value that Grey Knight patrol seems horrible:

Dreadknight - $60
Terminators - $54
Strike Squad - $30 (half box)
Librarian - $31

$175 MSRP for $140. The perceived value is even less given the age of these models.

The Deathwatch box is closest, it's got $194 in value. The rest are worth over $200.

I hope this is a sign that they'll have a couple of price tiers for Combat Patrols, the same way they did for Start Collecting boxes.

The T-Sons box value is also pretty low. It's ~$183 before upgrade sprues, but the $50 of imputed value they provide is lame given how overprice they are relative to other upgrade packs. At least the models are relatively new.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 14:49:41


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Ok found it. Just going to copypasta it here as it's what Chaos players want to know most:
Spoiler:
Goonhammer wrote:Forgefiends and Maulerfiends
Alright children, sit up and take notes because what we’re getting here is basically going to be how the datasheets shake out for these two units in the future. Both Forgefiends and Maulerfiends got significant boosts in the new book, and it’s worth taking a good look at both because I think they’re both playable as hell now.

Forgefiends get a huge boost from jumping up to BS and WS 3+, though both degrade now along with their movement (attacks do not). That’s interesting because now that Forgefiends can shoot autocannons in melee and are S7 and 5A base, the prospect of getting them in combat with their standard jaws isn’t nearly as troubling. That said, their guns are also significantly improved now – Ectoplasma Cannons are 36” and flat 3 damage (Blast), while Heavy hades autocannons are 48” and AP-2 now, making both significantly better for dealing with heavy targets at a long distance.

Maulerfiends benefit even more from the improved statlines – they’re now S7 and 6A base, and now only their movement, WS, and BS degrade, with the latter two starting at 3+ so you won’t even feel the drop until you get down to 3 wounds remaining. Magma Cutters are now Assault 2 and do D6+2 damage, making them significantly better options, particularly since Lasher Tendrils have dropped to 1 damage (though being S7 does mean you’re more likely to get wounds). If you’re wondering why you would still take them, the answer is because you might not need Magma Cutters as Maulerfiend Fists are now D3+3 damage. Oh and the cherry on top of all of this? The new Siege Crawler ability, which allows the Maulerfiend to ignore all modifiers to its charge rolls. So roll right over that difficult terrain at your leisure.

Heldrakes
Y’all. I am already assembling my next Thousand Sons Heldrake. This thing absolutely slaps. While we’re (sadly) back to the Heldrake being an AIRCRAFT instead of a big skimmer, it gains Hard to Hit while it’s in jet mode and 20-60” movement along with Supersonic and Airborne Predator, which prevents it from charging any non-AIRCRAFT units. Want the old Heldrake back? Then in your Command phase it can switch to Hover Jet mode, and its movement drops to 20” and it loses all three of those abilities, letting it attack ground targets. Either way, its Hunter in the Skies rule gives it +1 to hit any target that can FLY.

On the whole, these changes are slightly negative – the Heldrake can’t hold objectives any more, and you have to plan a bit more to use it, and it’s slightly slower, but it’s harder to hit and potentially faster when it wants to be. But the kicker is that its stats and offensive power are much better. In addition to having WS/BS 3+ to start like other vehicles and 5A base now (these do not degrade, by the way), every one of its weapons have improved. The Baleflamer is now Assault 2D3. The Hades Autocannon is AP-2. And the Heldrake Claws do a flat 2 damage, which jumps up to 4 against enemy AIRCRAFT, making the Heldrake an absolute monster for fighting enemy planes out of the sky. Sure, this won’t happen often, but it’s going to be hilarious when it does and even without it, he’s pretty good at fighting ground targets and jump units.

There’s one other thing worth mentioning here and that’s the Vector Strike Stratagem, another thing we’ll likely see again in the future Codex: CSM. For 1 CP Vector Strike can be used in the Movement phase after a Heldrake moves to pick an enemy unit it moved over that isn’t a character with 9 or fewer wounds and roll a D6; on a 2+ they take D3 mortal wounds… unless they can FLY, in which case they take 3 instead. Add this to the Warpflame Gargoyles Stratagem to do mortal wounds to enemy units within Engagement range and you’ve got yourself an incredibly nasty flyer that can also toss out more mortal wounds and pick off key targets. The Heldrake wins my award for “most improved unit” in the book.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 14:50:24


Post by: dreadblade


With Codex reviews for GK and TS out now, has anyone worked out the points values of the two halves of the Hexfire box yet?


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 15:47:14


Post by: Spoletta


We knew the points already, since they are on the MFM.

Both sides are at 430 for the models. Depending on wargear, you get to around 500.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 15:52:45


Post by: wuestenfux


 dreadblade wrote:
With Codex reviews for GK and TS out now, has anyone worked out the points values of the two halves of the Hexfire box yet?

You mean Goonhammer such as https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-grey-knights-9th-edition-the-goonhammer-review/


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 16:20:04


Post by: Daedalus81


I was pretty happy with the utility of the heldrake before, but it's damage was definitely anemic. The changes sound interesting.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 16:38:48


Post by: Gadzilla666


The buffs to the daemon engines are great. But I think the dark horse winners were the basic Astartes tanks, as they all have 5++ saves now in Thousand Sons armies.

Hey Daed! You still like running that Vindicator? Pay for the Siege Shield and it's T8 2+ 5++ now!


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 16:47:50


Post by: Morrslieb


I'm quite thrilled about TS codex as a whole, lots of improvements incoming. It's about time too!

Combat patrol irks me a little though, half of the box is Tzaangors. That's nice 'n all but I'd rather take rubrics or something.


Hexfire - GK vs TS box discussion @ 2021/08/07 16:52:24


Post by: Daedalus81


Oh man these spells and relics. My god.

Vengeace is basically the old CSM lore. No Warp Time for Magnus regardless ( keyword locked ). Adding a spell that gives +6" to RF and Heavy for a unit and a curse that lets you roll a D6 per model every time they make some sort of movement and on a 6 it does a MW. The utility of those spells is just awesome. Less mortal wounds and more tools, but also a lot of MW.

No more double tap - it is now +1 shot. Land Raiders might be worth a look for us.

No more 20 mans.