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Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 15:55:40


Post by: Eighty7_Octane


At last the long awaited Orks 9th edition is out with the Beast Snagga box!
As we all know with every new edition there are changes that don't feel right or change how we have to play our army. This Ork's edition left me feeling Empty, and sad to go to battle with my friends again.
Why? What could they have done that is so bad you ask?
Its not point increases, or changes to number of models in a unit. In fact, I'm very happy in this regard. There is even an entire new weapon type "Dakka" which does need some clarification on how it works! Does it play like an assault, heavy, or pistol weapon?

But there is just something missing, from every single unit, every single datasheet!
"DAKKA! DAKKA! DAKKA!"
Its GONE!
how could they!

All Ork players instinctively count up their 6 rolls and grab more dice to roll for DAKKA! DAKKA! DAKKA!. It pumps life and fun into the game, It gives a bit of unpredictability, a cornerstone of the Orks. If we wanted boring repeatable battles we would play space marines! Now our army just has rapid fire weapons that don't work right.

I think at the end of the game, with these new DAKKA! weapons you will end up with more shots fired than with DAKKA! DAKKA! DAKKA!. I have to ask though, Is it worth it?

RIP DAKKA! DAKKA! DAKKA!


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 16:03:46


Post by: Twilight Pathways


I thought the old DDD was fun and very characterful, sad to see it go and be replaced by something with absolutely no variance. I do have to say however that the new Dakka weapon rule does not need clarification. It doesn't share any rules with assault, heavy, or pistol weapons.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 16:10:43


Post by: Eighty7_Octane


Does that mean Dakka weapons can be fired in melee combat as well? Can I advance and shoot them too? what are the restrictions?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 16:12:31


Post by: Karol


To do either of the things a weapon has to be assault or a pistol. dakka weapons are neither. So you can't do those things, unless the weapon has a pistol or assault trait at the same time.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 16:45:51


Post by: Dysartes


Eighty7_Octane wrote:
Does that mean Dakka weapons can be fired in melee combat as well? Can I advance and shoot them too? what are the restrictions?


In both cases, if the weapon type doesn't explicitly state you can, you can't, as that's the default position when it comes to shooting.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 16:51:22


Post by: Dudeface


Eighty7_Octane wrote:
At last the long awaited Orks 9th edition is out with the Beast Snagga box!
As we all know with every new edition there are changes that don't feel right or change how we have to play our army. This Ork's edition left me feeling Empty, and sad to go to battle with my friends again.
Why? What could they have done that is so bad you ask?
Its not point increases, or changes to number of models in a unit. In fact, I'm very happy in this regard. There is even an entire new weapon type "Dakka" which does need some clarification on how it works! Does it play like an assault, heavy, or pistol weapon?

But there is just something missing, from every single unit, every single datasheet!
"DAKKA! DAKKA! DAKKA!"
Its GONE!
how could they!

All Ork players instinctively count up their 6 rolls and grab more dice to roll for DAKKA! DAKKA! DAKKA!. It pumps life and fun into the game, It gives a bit of unpredictability, a cornerstone of the Orks. If we wanted boring repeatable battles we would play space marines! Now our army just has rapid fire weapons that don't work right.

I think at the end of the game, with these new DAKKA! weapons you will end up with more shots fired than with DAKKA! DAKKA! DAKKA!. I have to ask though, Is it worth it?

RIP DAKKA! DAKKA! DAKKA!


Yes. My brothers deathskulls msu orks with dakka dakka dakka added so much time to games with rerolls, mostly because he's a weirdo 6 magnet.

I don't like the new weapon type, but D^3 did need to go as well imo. Don't have a better fix necessarily though, I'd accept additional hit on 6s and a price adjust.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 17:10:56


Post by: The Red Hobbit


I am happy they finally took some units with poor number of shots and gave them a much needed boost like Burnaboyz and Lootas but I do lament the lack of DDD on 6s. It was a mechanic I always enjoyed even if it rarely paid dividends for me.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 17:13:33


Post by: ERJAK


Using Dakka Dakka Dakka was one of the most effective methods of slowplaying in the game. Orkz almost singlehandedly forced a number of competitive events to start using chess clocks.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 18:08:23


Post by: Spoletta


Very glad to see it gone.
Roll, reroll 1s, count the 6s, take that number of dices, roll, reroll 1s, count the hits -> Roll, reroll 1s, count the hits. Much better.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 18:26:27


Post by: a_typical_hero


I totally see why they removed it to make the game faster.

I just don't understand why they added Blade Artists then.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 18:58:37


Post by: Umbros



The Dakka weapon type is silly, but good riddance to the admin of Dakka Dakka Dakka. A good change.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 19:25:38


Post by: alextroy


Dakka weapons are the replacement to Dakka! Dakka! Dakka! rule. It is a time saving rule, which are very common in the 9th edition codexes. Instead of rolling, counting, and rolling again, they just gave Orks more attacks when close to the target to reflect the hail of bullets. I expect they found both an additional hit on unmodified 6s and Rapid Fire as too big an improvement to the old rule, so came up with this one. The only thing they seem to have forgotten is most of the newly Dakka weapons used to be Assault weapons. Then again, maybe they decided to save time by not having hordes of Orks rolling to hit with BS 5+ and a -1 to hit.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 19:45:14


Post by: Blackie


Not only they removed DDD but also pretty much every source of re-rolls. Bad moons trait, Badrukk aura, tankbustas re-rolls against vehicles, grots' subkultur trait, deathskulls stratagem etc... all gone. I don't think orks can re-roll hits/wounds somehow now, other than using Ghaz's aura.

They increased the number of shots of a lot of stuff to compensate that though, sometimes even the damage characteristic and/or the AP.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 20:01:22


Post by: endlesswaltz123


You are acting like DDD was in the rules before 8th edition Orks....

DDD was a mess and contributed to a ridiculous amount of re-rolling. In addition, a faction that isn't relying on re-rolls of some sort? Now that is refreshing. You get to roll a hell of a lot of dice still for the army, you are not losing out on anything.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 20:07:47


Post by: chaos0xomega


They changed Dakka Dakka Dakka to speed up the game, frontloading it into the number of dice you pick up to roll the first time around drastically speeds up the game vs fishing for 6s and adding more dice into the thing.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 21:23:52


Post by: SemperMortis


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I am happy they finally took some units with poor number of shots and gave them a much needed boost like Burnaboyz and Lootas but I do lament the lack of DDD on 6s. It was a mechanic I always enjoyed even if it rarely paid dividends for me.


I agree with the majority here for the most part. DDD slowed the game down and added very little value beyond the occasional Rokkit shot and those even rarer instances where a Smasha gun fired 3 shots and ended with 6 hits.

The only problems I see with the new Dakka weapon replacement is

1: Its not assault, they gave orkz a crappier version of salvo weapons. The problem being that most weapons don't benefit from it at all, and the couple that do don't make up for the problem. I have run the numbers for people a number of times, the gist is Shoota boyz just got worse at shooting at mid-long range and got better at 9' or less. How often are shoota boyz getting 9 or less from an enemy and WANTING to shoot the target? Burna boyz got an upgrade, but they also nerfed their CC profile so its a mixed bag there. Lootas....christ lootas. A Loota now averages the same # of shots as a Auto-cannon Havoc. The difference is the Havoc hits on 3s the Loota hits on 5s. 3 lootas average 2 hits. 2 Havocs average 2.66 hits, The havoc also boasts that 3+ save and will likely be getting a 2nd (T5) wound when Chaos gets updated. Lootas and most "Dakka" weapons should have gotten probably 33-50% more shots. A Lootas instead of getting dakka 3(2) should have gotten 4(3). The shoota boyz? same profile 4(3).

2: How it synergizes with the rest of the codex. Orkz just got beaten to death with Morale for large units, and now Shoota boyz are less effective at range, meaning by the time they can actually benefit from there new dakka weapons they will be so depleted that they won't even have enough left to make an impact.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 22:10:46


Post by: Voss


All Ork players instinctively count up their 6 rolls and grab more dice to roll for DAKKA! DAKKA! DAKKA!. It pumps life and fun into the game, It gives a bit of unpredictability, a cornerstone of the Orks. If we wanted boring repeatable battles we would play space marines!

Meh. It was a very late and weird addition to the army that didn't fix any of its core problem.

The only thing orky about it was the word 'dakka.' As with all reroll and fishing-for-sixes abilities, it mostly just wasted time.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 23:10:01


Post by: The Red Hobbit


SemperMortis wrote:
A Loota now averages the same # of shots as a Auto-cannon Havoc. The difference is the Havoc hits on 3s the Loota hits on 5s. 3 lootas average 2 hits. 2 Havocs average 2.66 hits, The havoc also boasts that 3+ save and will likely be getting a 2nd (T5) wound when Chaos gets updated. Lootas and most "Dakka" weapons should have gotten probably 33-50% more shots. A Lootas instead of getting dakka 3(2) should have gotten 4(3). The shoota boyz? same profile 4(3).

Sure, I'd love to have 4/+3 on Lootas and Shoota boyz. But 3/+2 is still a flat upgrade from d3 Deffgun shots any day of the week.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/25 23:13:34


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


DDD was a tedious time sink that didn't really add anything to the game. It's just RNG on top of RNG.
Dakka type weapons are a better concept, but the execution could use some work.

Deff guns being Dakka, for example, is just silly. Why would you want to get within 24" with your lootas and potentially expose them to enemy fire?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 00:07:43


Post by: Eighty7_Octane


It didn't all streamline and make the game faster Did you see new Bad moons clan skill?

"each time a model with this Kultur makes a ranged attack, on an un modified wound roll of 6, improve the armor penetration characteristic of that attack by 1."

now your opponent has to resolve 2 separate weapon profiles from the same gun!
At least DDD, you did all the work and your opponent just watched in horror.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 00:18:46


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Eighty7_Octane wrote:
It didn't all streamline and make the game faster Did you see new Bad moons clan skill?

"each time a model with this Kultur makes a ranged attack, on an un modified wound roll of 6, improve the armor penetration characteristic of that attack by 1."

now your opponent has to resolve 2 separate weapon profiles from the same gun!
At least DDD, you did all the work and your opponent just watched in horror.

There's a difference between dealing with a clan trait that may not be present and dealing with a rule that all orks have.
That trait is still faster to resolve than DDD anyway.

New Badmoons trait - roll to hit, roll to wound, find 6s, opponent rolls for saves using different colored dice for each 6.
DDD - Roll to hit, find DDD procs, roll to hit again, roll to wound, opponent rolls for saves.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 00:36:01


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Was DDD really that much effort? Shoot guns, add some more dice because you rolled 6s. It wasn't a herculean task or anything.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 00:39:50


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Was DDD really that much effort? Shoot guns, add some more dice because you rolled 6s. It wasn't a herculean task or anything.

It slowed things down. You're already rolling a lot of dice, and then you roll even more dice, which may be affected by rerolls.
Games in 8th ed already took a while, and it took even longer when it came to orks.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 01:00:09


Post by: chaos0xomega


Once per game? No. Once per phase, probably not. Every single time a unit in your army fires a weapon? Absolutely, yes.

You have to analyze the impact of the rule in totality and not just as an isolated event.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 03:17:27


Post by: Arachnofiend


There's a reason exploding hits for other factions usually auto-hit.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 03:29:47


Post by: GoldenHorde


Rokkits and KMB's basically doubled their damage output on average. Firing at units of 6 or more triple the damage output

Huge buff


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 10:54:00


Post by: Blackie


 GoldenHorde wrote:
Rokkits and KMB's basically doubled their damage output on average. Firing at units of 6 or more triple the damage output

Huge buff


Rokkits didn't on infantries though since they're now heavy and platform will likely move before firing. Not to mention that the typical source of rokkits lost the full re-roll to hit against vehicles as well and the chance of getting exploding 5s, while also bomb squigs have been nerfed severely. On vehicles sure, they definitely doubled their damage output.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 11:08:11


Post by: Karol


Maybe GW doesn't want people to play their armies with a horde of boys, but with a horde of vehicles.

True or not, it would create a nice buyer loop. New boys come out, new players buy boys. Boys less efficient, then vehicles, so people with new armies have to buy vehicles. And for a lot between being able to do both things, there is enough time passed to add new stuff obligatory to the army, through new models or FAQs/CA.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 13:38:01


Post by: the_scotsman


Karol wrote:
Maybe GW doesn't want people to play their armies with a horde of boys, but with a horde of vehicles.

True or not, it would create a nice buyer loop. New boys come out, new players buy boys. Boys less efficient, then vehicles, so people with new armies have to buy vehicles. And for a lot between being able to do both things, there is enough time passed to add new stuff obligatory to the army, through new models or FAQs/CA.


Yes, yes, Karol go, soar on those wings you beatiful angel.

"GW made boyz worse on purpose to sell more of the new boyz kit" is one of my new favorite prongs of the beautiful GW conspiracy power fixing sales narrative.

Tell me: How does giving the new mega-armored warboss model fixed weaponry that is incompatible with all the relics fit into this, tell me? How does that super-secret 9 billion-d chessfully push sales of that new model?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 13:51:17


Post by: G00fySmiley


to me DDD will not be missed, I would prefer that most reroll mechanics were removed from the game and they were more of a limited to a few units per book. the bigger breakign to me is the dakka weapons not being by default assault as that has been a key aspect to ork armies since i started playing in 4th


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 13:56:10


Post by: catbarf


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Was DDD really that much effort? Shoot guns, add some more dice because you rolled 6s. It wasn't a herculean task or anything.


My usual opponent is Bad Moons. His rolls to hit meant rolling all the dice, then re-rolling the ones, then counting the total, then separating out the 6s, then re-rolling those, then re-rolling the 1s, then counting the total and adding to the original total.

When he was regularly doing 40+ shots at a time it absolutely was a tedious pain in the ass to roll all those dice. Now he'll just roll a fixed amount of dice and count the hits. Sure, he still has a triggers-on-6s ability for being Bad Moons, but it just creates a separate pool of AP-1 rather than requiring re-rolling; we can use differently colored dice on the ensuing saves or just roll them separately.

Simply giving Orks more shots so they can throw tons of dice fits their fluff just fine. DDD was a tedious mechanic that didn't add much.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 14:25:28


Post by: The Red Hobbit


That makes sense and sounds like quite a pain, thanks for explaining. I've actually never encountered a Bad Moons player so the Ork rerolling sounded foreign to me, most other Ork players I've met have been either Goffs or Evil Sunz while I add the variety of Blood Axes.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 14:36:43


Post by: the_scotsman


 G00fySmiley wrote:
to me DDD will not be missed, I would prefer that most reroll mechanics were removed from the game and they were more of a limited to a few units per book. the bigger breakign to me is the dakka weapons not being by default assault as that has been a key aspect to ork armies since i started playing in 4th


Yeah, there's a ton of things in the new Ork 'dex that I'd love...

...if they were applied equally to all other armies, and it wasn't just orks playing with one hand tied behind their back while everyone else enjoys the full excesses of 'have your cake and eat it too' codexes, strats, buffs, auras, and stacking army-wide abilities.

-Specialist Mobz not stacking with but instead replacing subfaction bonuses is vastly better game design than the stacking doctrine+superdoctrine purity bonus scheme
-Basically every aura being the non-stacking +1 to hit aura is a fantastic way of making it so there's no way to multiplicatively stack up this aura from this character and that aura from that character and this other aura from over here to create a super-duper-duper buffed unit that punches massively over its weight class
-Leadership being an actual factor offsets the natural advantages of big unit blocks, meaning that there's an actual cost, but an actual extant bonus, to stacking most units out. I don't know if the bonus is good enough to make blocks bigger than 10 worthwhile (I really think there should have been *one* extra rule to encourage the traditional 30-blocks of boyz/snaggas, ideally something defensive)

The main problem is, every other faction currently in the meta doesn't abide by Codex: Orks' level of restraint.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 14:39:19


Post by: SemperMortis


 GoldenHorde wrote:
Rokkits and KMB's basically doubled their damage output on average. Firing at units of 6 or more triple the damage output

Huge buff


On vehicles Rokkitz are significantly better, except in CC where a lot of ork vehicles want to be, now they can't be used in CC. On Infantry though...not so much. Moving the weapon from assault to Heavy means that those D3 shots average 2 shots and instead of hitting on 5s with exploding 6s its now just hitting on 6s. I've run the math in other places but the gist of it is that if you roll a 1-2 you lose a significant amount of dmg output. If you roll a 3-4 you lose a little bit of dmg output and if you roll a 5-6 you get a bit better dmg output than with just Assault 1 rokkitz.

So rokkitz became worse on most infantry units, I especially love that the Warboss auto-takes a Kombi Rokkit. The Shoota aspect is useless and the rokkit will always be hitting on 6s because there won't be a turn where a warboss is standing still in the movement phase.

As far as "Firing at units of 6 or more" Yeah...that doesn't really happen often does it? Is it worth it to fire those rokkitz into horde units, even Wyches and other light infantry? Not particularly. The real target of choice of a rokkit is and always was Space Marines. Medium to Heavy infantry with multi-wounds. How many squads of 6+ Primaris or firstborn do you see running around the top tables right now?

 catbarf wrote:

My usual opponent is Bad Moons. His rolls to hit meant rolling all the dice, then re-rolling the ones, then counting the total, then separating out the 6s, then re-rolling those, then re-rolling the 1s, then counting the total and adding to the original total.

When he was regularly doing 40+ shots at a time it absolutely was a tedious pain in the ass to roll all those dice. Now he'll just roll a fixed amount of dice and count the hits. Sure, he still has a triggers-on-6s ability for being Bad Moons, but it just creates a separate pool of AP-1 rather than requiring re-rolling; we can use differently colored dice on the ensuing saves or just roll them separately.

Simply giving Orks more shots so they can throw tons of dice fits their fluff just fine. DDD was a tedious mechanic that didn't add much.


The far simpler solution would have been to just give orkz AUTO hits on 6s instead of extra shots. Rokkitz would have been fine at Assault 2 if they had that. Basically GW created a problem with DDD in order to buff piss poor ork shooting and than made it worse by removing it, adding an even clunkier rule, forgetting to update a host of rules that no longer work for the most part now that Dakka is the weapon type instead of assault, and than said "YAY look at us! we made ork shooting better!" completely ignoring basic math and common sense.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 14:52:53


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 the_scotsman wrote:


The main problem is, every other faction currently in the meta doesn't abide by Codex: Orks' level of restraint.


Besides Necrons, and Sisters, and arguably Deathwatch/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/non-pushed Codex Compliant Space Marines. And all the 8e dexes. This is why I'm tired of people claiming the "GoDleN AgEe of 4oK" crap.







Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 15:30:38


Post by: SemperMortis


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


The main problem is, every other faction currently in the meta doesn't abide by Codex: Orks' level of restraint.


Besides Necrons, and Sisters, and arguably Deathwatch/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/non-pushed Codex Compliant Space Marines. And all the 8e dexes. This is why I'm tired of people claiming the "GoDleN AgEe of 4oK" crap.


Do any of those factions you listed suffer even half as much to morale as orkz now do? Do any of their buffs come with a corresponding nerf the same way orkz did? Honest question because I don't play those factions.

But lets look.
Orkz get Dakkagunz! WOOHOO! Also not assault anymore, we also removed DDD so its actually a nerf at anything over half range and also the only real benefit is if you can get within half range with your already short ranged guns.
Orkz get T5! WOOHOO! Also, we hit them with the morale nerf stick and increased their price and nerfed the KFF to not impact them as much.
Orkz get D3 ROKKTIZ! WOOHOO! Also we moved them to heavy instead of assault and to ensure you don't use them in CC on your vehicles that like being in CC we also made them Blast.
Ork Mek Gunz only received a 12.5% increase in price! Ok not bad. Also we removed their ability to split upon deployment, gave them LD4 and you can only field them in units of 3.
Lootas got a price reduction! WOOHOO! But instead of buffing their gun to 2D3 shots or flat 4 shots to make them remotely competitive in a meta which eats them if they are exposed to shooting we instead gave them Dakka 3(2) gunz! Just get within 24' range with your heavy support long range guns to make them a bit more impactful.

And that is before you get into the Kustom jobz which are now a joke at best. Nitro squigs are ok, but about 15pts over priced. Moar dakka is good and maybe the Smoky gubbinz....but the only units with "Spannerz" are Lootas and Burnas. Burnas want to be moving so no benefit and Lootas to get their dakka shot need to be moving to get within 24' range so little benefit to them.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 15:38:47


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


SemperMortis wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


The main problem is, every other faction currently in the meta doesn't abide by Codex: Orks' level of restraint.


Besides Necrons, and Sisters, and arguably Deathwatch/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/non-pushed Codex Compliant Space Marines. And all the 8e dexes. This is why I'm tired of people claiming the "GoDleN AgEe of 4oK" crap.


Do any of those factions you listed suffer even half as much to morale as orkz now do? Do any of their buffs come with a corresponding nerf the same way orkz did? Honest question because I don't play those factions.

But lets look.
Orkz get Dakkagunz! WOOHOO! Also not assault anymore, we also removed DDD so its actually a nerf at anything over half range and also the only real benefit is if you can get within half range with your already short ranged guns.
Orkz get T5! WOOHOO! Also, we hit them with the morale nerf stick and increased their price and nerfed the KFF to not impact them as much.
Orkz get D3 ROKKTIZ! WOOHOO! Also we moved them to heavy instead of assault and to ensure you don't use them in CC on your vehicles that like being in CC we also made them Blast.
Ork Mek Gunz only received a 12.5% increase in price! Ok not bad. Also we removed their ability to split upon deployment, gave them LD4 and you can only field them in units of 3.
Lootas got a price reduction! WOOHOO! But instead of buffing their gun to 2D3 shots or flat 4 shots to make them remotely competitive in a meta which eats them if they are exposed to shooting we instead gave them Dakka 3(2) gunz! Just get within 24' range with your heavy support long range guns to make them a bit more impactful.

And that is before you get into the Kustom jobz which are now a joke at best. Nitro squigs are ok, but about 15pts over priced. Moar dakka is good and maybe the Smoky gubbinz....but the only units with "Spannerz" are Lootas and Burnas. Burnas want to be moving so no benefit and Lootas to get their dakka shot need to be moving to get within 24' range so little benefit to them.


Look, I don't play Orks so I'm not going to take this point-by-point, but yeah, all those armies got mixtures of buffs and nerfs with their new books. Scotsman's said it before; the issue with Dark Eldar and Admech is that GW took already okay/strong books and gave across-the-line buffs basically. That's not a good thing. Orks were already doing okay (certainly not fantastic) so GW did the typical rebalance thing. That's much healthier for the game.

The other thing that I think is worth remembering is that those mid-late 8e codexes were really fleshed out already. Orks had strong, multi-part chapter tactic equivalents that were augmented with Kustom Jobs and new strats from PA. There just wasn't as tall of a hill to climb with Orks versus, I dunno, early 8e codexes. Oh wait, for whatever reason, GW hasn't given most of those armies 9e books yet and instead did this whacky, terrible release schedule.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 15:40:52


Post by: Not Online!!!


Gotta fit those Preorder DLC in it somehow Gene...


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 15:58:48


Post by: SemperMortis


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


Look, I don't play Orks so I'm not going to take this point-by-point, but yeah, all those armies got mixtures of buffs and nerfs with their new books. Scotsman's said it before; the issue with Dark Eldar and Admech is that GW took already okay/strong books and gave across-the-line buffs basically. That's not a good thing. Orks were already doing okay (certainly not fantastic) so GW did the typical rebalance thing. That's much healthier for the game.

The other thing that I think is worth remembering is that those mid-late 8e codexes were really fleshed out already. Orks had strong, multi-part chapter tactic equivalents that were augmented with Kustom Jobs and new strats from PA. There just wasn't as tall of a hill to climb with Orks versus, I dunno, early 8e codexes. Oh wait, for whatever reason, GW hasn't given most of those armies 9e books yet and instead did this whacky, terrible release schedule.


But did any of those books receive corresponding nerfs directly tied to each "Buff"? For instance, Blood angels got their assault shenanigans, did they also get a nerf in another form to counteract that buff?

Ork green tide style lists were doing ok in 9th as a counter-meta list, their biggest issue was they couldn't inflict much dmg in CC and they died in droves, but thanks to morale shenanigans they were able to stick around to at least hold a point for a few turns. Now, orkz do -1AP in CC with choppas, AND have T5 to be even tougher. But to counter balance those buffs they took away our morale and increased points as well as nerfing our durability enhancing KFF. If you factor in those things orkz are now LESS durable than last edition, and once you take away casualties from a single round of shooting, orkz do less dmg in CC.

Shooting wise, Shoota boyz are...underwhelming even in "Dakka" range. If you can magically get 30 Ork shoota boyz into Dakka range (9 inches) they get 90 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds and against a Space Marine tac unit that is 2.5 dead Marines. 270pts killing 36-54, or if they are Intercessors its 40-60.

As far as the "Augmented with kustom jobz and new strats" yeah, PA which was playable for about 2 hours was great for those things. Sadly with the new codex, all the competitive strats and kustom jobz are gone. Of the new Kustom Jobz only 1-2 are truly useful, the rest are situational at best and garbage at worst. Here is my current favorite one.

Bionik Oiler: For the low low price of 10pts you can re-use the ability of the 5pt Grot Oiler in a game. So instead of once per game its twice per game. So for 200% the price of the damn upgrade you can use it 1 extra time.

or you could always take the heavily over priced Big Mek with SAG and pay an extra 15pts to upgrade it from D6 shots to 2D3 shots! Average going up from a measly 3.5 shots a turn to a powerful, game breaking 4.



Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 16:20:09


Post by: a_typical_hero


SemperMortis wrote:
But did any of those books receive corresponding nerfs directly tied to each "Buff"? For instance, Blood angels got their assault shenanigans, did they also get a nerf in another form to counteract that buff?

Apart from the 2nd wound on Death Company Marines and sidegrading Encarmine weapons from d3 to 2d, the 9th edition supplement for BA is a straight nerf compared to PA.
Hyperbole, of course. But it is like 8 sidegrades / nerfs to 2 buffs.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 16:28:58


Post by: SemperMortis


a_typical_hero wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
But did any of those books receive corresponding nerfs directly tied to each "Buff"? For instance, Blood angels got their assault shenanigans, did they also get a nerf in another form to counteract that buff?

Apart from the 2nd wound on Death Company Marines and sidegrading Encarmine weapons from d3 to 2d, the 9th edition supplement for BA is a straight nerf compared to PA.
Hyperbole, of course. But it is like 8 sidegrades / nerfs to 2 buffs.


9th came out October 9th 2020. On 40k stats you can review data going back to August 2020. For the months prior to the release of 9th Blood Angels had a 53% Win/Loss rate AND had a 1st, and 2 3rd place finishes in that time frame. Since then they have a 56.39% Win/Loss rate AND have about as many top 4 placings as before. I would never argue BA is nearly as powerful as Ad Mech or Drukhari which likely lowered their chances of placing in the last few months.

So, as far as raw tournament data, they don't appear weaker at all.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 17:37:08


Post by: a_typical_hero


SemperMortis wrote:
9th came out October 9th 2020. On 40k stats you can review data going back to August 2020. For the months prior to the release of 9th Blood Angels had a 53% Win/Loss rate AND had a 1st, and 2 3rd place finishes in that time frame. Since then they have a 56.39% Win/Loss rate AND have about as many top 4 placings as before. I would never argue BA is nearly as powerful as Ad Mech or Drukhari which likely lowered their chances of placing in the last few months.

So, as far as raw tournament data, they don't appear weaker at all.

I thought about the numbers and why it doesn't match up with my perception.
Sadly, 40k Stats only got limited data for the 2020 season. 8th edition BA with PA supplement had a 47.24% win rate during the 2020 tournament months. If I look at the current subfaction results without excluding anything (https://www.40kstats.com/subfaction-results), BA got a 44.68% win rate.

The power shift I feel wasn't from PA to Supplement. It was from standalone codex to consolidated one. Psychic discipline and Stratagems weren't part of PA. The supplement just didn't give back, what was lost in the codex.

I can't follow where you get your numbers from. Overall faction date (https://www.40kstats.com/faction-breakdown-report) gives me BA at 44.78%, from start of 9th to release of their codex compared to the 53% you wrote.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 17:50:49


Post by: Eldarsif


 Blackie wrote:
Not only they removed DDD but also pretty much every source of re-rolls. Bad moons trait, Badrukk aura, tankbustas re-rolls against vehicles, grots' subkultur trait, deathskulls stratagem etc... all gone. I don't think orks can re-roll hits/wounds somehow now, other than using Ghaz's aura.

They increased the number of shots of a lot of stuff to compensate that though, sometimes even the damage characteristic and/or the AP.


GW seems to be backing away from rerolls except for a few elite factions. A lot of AoS factions lost their rerolls in the AoS 3.0 FAQ for example.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 18:24:22


Post by: Galas


 Eldarsif wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Not only they removed DDD but also pretty much every source of re-rolls. Bad moons trait, Badrukk aura, tankbustas re-rolls against vehicles, grots' subkultur trait, deathskulls stratagem etc... all gone. I don't think orks can re-roll hits/wounds somehow now, other than using Ghaz's aura.

They increased the number of shots of a lot of stuff to compensate that though, sometimes even the damage characteristic and/or the AP.


GW seems to be backing away from rerolls except for a few elite factions. A lot of AoS factions lost their rerolls in the AoS 3.0 FAQ for example.


I actually like that. I like rolls to be definitive. If you have a bad roll and roll a ton of 1-2's , tought gak. Thats what makes memorable moments. When everything is rerolled for the mathematically expected result it gets old fast.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 19:30:36


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Absolutely agree, you get great memories out of great rolls and poor rolls. I still remember when I made 6 Armor Saves in a row on a Kill Team game, it was quite fun.

Getting a 1 on a Lascannon shot is a feel bad moment, but that quickly snowballed into rerolls becoming ubiquitous to nearly every faction.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 19:33:51


Post by: Umbros


That's also why they should get rid of the CP reroll!


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 19:48:55


Post by: G00fySmiley


 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Absolutely agree, you get great memories out of great rolls and poor rolls. I still remember when I made 6 Armor Saves in a row on a Kill Team game, it was quite fun.

Getting a 1 on a Lascannon shot is a feel bad moment, but that quickly snowballed into rerolls becoming ubiquitous to nearly every faction.


the fails can be the best one of my most memerable games was 5th edition space wolves vs my orks. orks went first. 2 SAGs both roll double 1's and eliminate a large portion of my army. every nit fails morale checks. at the end of top of turn 1 not one model was left on the table as they self destructed and ran.

Also a noteable failure 15 loota mob, rolled 3 for number of shots. 45 shots and all missed


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 20:03:58


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Hahahaha, that is a very Orky battle when they self destruct on the first turn. I bet if they were facing Imperial Guard the immense sigh of relief seeing the Orks explode then scamper off.

My Lootas always seem to roll 1 for my number of shots. Love the models but they are jinxed.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/26 20:11:36


Post by: epronovost


a_typical_hero wrote:
I totally see why they removed it to make the game faster.

I just don't understand why they added Blade Artists then.


Blade artist isn't a re-roll it's an activated ability on a fixed roll.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/27 01:11:54


Post by: SemperMortis


a_typical_hero wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
9th came out October 9th 2020. On 40k stats you can review data going back to August 2020. For the months prior to the release of 9th Blood Angels had a 53% Win/Loss rate AND had a 1st, and 2 3rd place finishes in that time frame. Since then they have a 56.39% Win/Loss rate AND have about as many top 4 placings as before. I would never argue BA is nearly as powerful as Ad Mech or Drukhari which likely lowered their chances of placing in the last few months.

So, as far as raw tournament data, they don't appear weaker at all.

I thought about the numbers and why it doesn't match up with my perception.
Sadly, 40k Stats only got limited data for the 2020 season. 8th edition BA with PA supplement had a 47.24% win rate during the 2020 tournament months. If I look at the current subfaction results without excluding anything (https://www.40kstats.com/subfaction-results), BA got a 44.68% win rate.

The power shift I feel wasn't from PA to Supplement. It was from standalone codex to consolidated one. Psychic discipline and Stratagems weren't part of PA. The supplement just didn't give back, what was lost in the codex.

I can't follow where you get your numbers from. Overall faction date (https://www.40kstats.com/faction-breakdown-report) gives me BA at 44.78%, from start of 9th to release of their codex compared to the 53% you wrote.


https://onedrive.live.com/View.aspx?resid=AF10FF48A372CEE4!939&authkey=!AI4cPoutPkJTLZA

expanded 40kstats where you can pick dates.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/27 06:15:06


Post by: Klickor


I don't doubt BA can be good in a more casual setting since some of our units are quite brutal in melee and if you don't play very optimized it might be hard to counter.

In a competitive setting they suck though. DG and DA decreases our output by half or more and we just bounce off them in melee and we are worse in durability and shooting. Some of the DA and DG lists by accident just hard counters BA. Sisters and Drukhari hit as hard but are also faster and cheaper. Ad mech even have more reliable deep strike charges than BA just to rub it in that they are OP.

BA isn't in the top 3 fastest space marine chapters anymore after they nerfed the strats that made BA so good(at least in soup) during 8th. So BA lost their tricks and speed and now compete in effiency, which looked viable when Sanguinary Guard were revealed at 30pts(32 now) a model, but the codexes released after the supplement either just were made to counter BA like DA and DG or are way more efficient as in Drukhari or Ad mech.

Our best psychic power in the Sanguine discipline got hit by direct 3! nerfs in the supplement. It's more expensive, it lost rerolls and only works in psychic phase so no fly in other phases. Our melee characters got way worse without any stratagem support anyway so now a librarian dreadnought or mephiston hit like a wet noodle so even if wings weren't tripple nerfed you still wouldn't want it.



Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 04:21:37


Post by: Jarms48


I'm very disappointed with Dakka weapons most of the time they're just gakker Rapid Fire weapons. I'd have preferred GW either making everything Assault and give them an extra shot, or making everything Rapid Fire.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 06:39:27


Post by: Karol


 Galas wrote:


I actually like that. I like rolls to be definitive. If you have a bad roll and roll a ton of 1-2's , tought gak. Thats what makes memorable moments. When everything is rerolled for the mathematically expected result it gets old fast.


well that is all well and nice, when you play cheap armies that can spam stuff or have guns that are doing multi shoting. there is a difference with rolling 2-3 1s or 2s from a squad of 4 devastators with MMs using their cherub, and shoting a single lascanon and getting a one, when you have no re-rolls.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 07:55:07


Post by: Lammia


SemperMortis wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


Look, I don't play Orks so I'm not going to take this point-by-point, but yeah, all those armies got mixtures of buffs and nerfs with their new books. Scotsman's said it before; the issue with Dark Eldar and Admech is that GW took already okay/strong books and gave across-the-line buffs basically. That's not a good thing. Orks were already doing okay (certainly not fantastic) so GW did the typical rebalance thing. That's much healthier for the game.

The other thing that I think is worth remembering is that those mid-late 8e codexes were really fleshed out already. Orks had strong, multi-part chapter tactic equivalents that were augmented with Kustom Jobs and new strats from PA. There just wasn't as tall of a hill to climb with Orks versus, I dunno, early 8e codexes. Oh wait, for whatever reason, GW hasn't given most of those armies 9e books yet and instead did this whacky, terrible release schedule.


But did any of those books receive corresponding nerfs directly tied to each "Buff"? For instance, Blood angels got their assault shenanigans, did they also get a nerf in another form to counteract that buff?

Ork green tide style lists were doing ok in 9th as a counter-meta list, their biggest issue was they couldn't inflict much dmg in CC and they died in droves, but thanks to morale shenanigans they were able to stick around to at least hold a point for a few turns. Now, orkz do -1AP in CC with choppas, AND have T5 to be even tougher. But to counter balance those buffs they took away our morale and increased points as well as nerfing our durability enhancing KFF. If you factor in those things orkz are now LESS durable than last edition, and once you take away casualties from a single round of shooting, orkz do less dmg in CC.

Shooting wise, Shoota boyz are...underwhelming even in "Dakka" range. If you can magically get 30 Ork shoota boyz into Dakka range (9 inches) they get 90 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds and against a Space Marine tac unit that is 2.5 dead Marines. 270pts killing 36-54, or if they are Intercessors its 40-60.

As far as the "Augmented with kustom jobz and new strats" yeah, PA which was playable for about 2 hours was great for those things. Sadly with the new codex, all the competitive strats and kustom jobz are gone. Of the new Kustom Jobz only 1-2 are truly useful, the rest are situational at best and garbage at worst. Here is my current favorite one.

Bionik Oiler: For the low low price of 10pts you can re-use the ability of the 5pt Grot Oiler in a game. So instead of once per game its twice per game. So for 200% the price of the damn upgrade you can use it 1 extra time.

or you could always take the heavily over priced Big Mek with SAG and pay an extra 15pts to upgrade it from D6 shots to 2D3 shots! Average going up from a measly 3.5 shots a turn to a powerful, game breaking 4.

Didn't KFFs get better?

Sisters got a bunch of side grades and nerfs to go with a few good buffs. I'm not going to go through them point by point, that's too much to do again. But it's normal.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 08:44:20


Post by: Blackie


I think overall the 9th codex is more solid than 8th one. And I've not even considered a single datasheet from the new snagga units yet since I don't own them and I'm not interested to buy them, but I've read that there's some very good stuff in there.

So some mechanics or units have been nerfed, but the army wasn't. In fact I think its internal balance is way higher now.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 08:49:59


Post by: Karol


Lammia 799930 11186531 wrote:Didn't KFFs get better?

Sisters got a bunch of side grades and nerfs to go with a few good buffs. I'm not going to go through them point by point, that's too much to do again. But it's normal.

It is a good way, for balance, to write books this way, as long as they are writen for books which are already good or mid tier. If lets say tau got a book today, and it had 8 side grades, one buff and two nerfs, the codex would be a rather horrible thing to expiriance for an old or new player. Sometimes I wish GW would just do their bad books at the very start of an edition, so people could know the army is going to be bad for the next 2-3 years, and just do something else. No waiting for a fix, or a new codex. Just plain and simple imperial knights will not work in this edition as a memo, and all the knight players can go and do something else.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 10:27:18


Post by: SemperMortis


Lammia wrote:


Didn't KFFs get better?

Sisters got a bunch of side grades and nerfs to go with a few good buffs. I'm not going to go through them point by point, that's too much to do again. But it's normal.


No, the KFF got beaten with the nerf bat. Dishonest people are trying to claim its a buff but it really isn't.

The KFF several editions ago used to provide a bubble of protection that gave units a 4+ Cover save so long as anyone in the unit touched the bubble. This was a pseudo Invuln save since at the time not many had "Ignores Cover" weapons. Its 8th edition iteration was a bit of a nerf but not bad since it became a 5+ Invuln save. The biggest issue was that it also made the bubble 9' range and the unit had to be wholly within the bubble to receive the benefit. SO you had an 18' diameter bubble of protection, it was a nerf but not that bad since it also became an invuln save. Now, the newest version is a 6+ Invuln save on a 6' bubble but you can toe into the bubble again like in older editions. So theoretically (Bull Gak honestly) you can fit more units under it and give a plethora of models a 6+ invuln they previously didn't have. In reality its a massive nerf because team that with the new Cohesion rules for 9th, the new Mob rule for orkz and our abysmal leadership. You aren't going to be conga lining blobs of 30 boyz back to your Big mek to get a 6+ save, especially since (as i have pointed out to others) instead of getting all those mobz of boyz to conga line back to the KFF Big Mek who also received a hefty price increase to go along with his new "better" KFF you could just upgrade each boy for 2ppm into Snagga boyz who inherently have a 6+++ AND have S5 instead of S4.

BTW, that Big Mek with KFF went from 60pts with a 5+++ 9' bubble wholly within to 85pts with a 6+++ 6' bubble that you have to touch. And before anyone says "Just use the CP to turn it back into the 5+++" yeah no, it costs 2 CP to buff the new KFF into a slightly better version of the older KFF and than it promptly explodes and you can't even use its crappier 6+++ for hte rest of the game. GW has driven home the point they don't want KFF Big mekz on the table.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 11:36:17


Post by: Nym


Dakka Dakka Dakka should have been :

"When firing a Dakka weapon, any unmodified hit roll of 6 generates an additionnal hit."

Dakka weapons : same list of weapons as now, but with 8th profiles.

Plain and simple. Gives Orks a BS 4+ for some weapons which mitigates their *huge* vulnerability to negative modifiers.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 11:39:07


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


SemperMortis wrote:
Lammia wrote:


Didn't KFFs get better?

Sisters got a bunch of side grades and nerfs to go with a few good buffs. I'm not going to go through them point by point, that's too much to do again. But it's normal.


No, the KFF got beaten with the nerf bat. Dishonest people are trying to claim its a buff but it really isn't.

The KFF several editions ago used to provide a bubble of protection that gave units a 4+ Cover save so long as anyone in the unit touched the bubble.

Pretty sure it was a 5+ save in 4th ed. I do not remember it being a 4+ save.
But yeah, the KFF now is crap, especially that stratagem.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 11:46:58


Post by: Blackie


In older editions it granted cover for the units under the bubble. Which meant 5+ for infantries and 4+ for vehicles. In 5th lining up 3 BWs with a big mek embarked in the one in the centre was a legit and popular tactic to give 4+ cover save to all three vehicles.

Only lasted one edition though. And in 3rd cover for a vehicles just meant a semi-useless -1 result to the damage table. Current version of KFF is almost as bad as that 3rd edition type of KFF, which was the worst version of KFF ever.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 12:13:50


Post by: the_scotsman


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


The main problem is, every other faction currently in the meta doesn't abide by Codex: Orks' level of restraint.


Besides Necrons, and Sisters, and arguably Deathwatch/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/non-pushed Codex Compliant Space Marines. And all the 8e dexes. This is why I'm tired of people claiming the "GoDleN AgEe of 4oK" crap.


Do any of those factions you listed suffer even half as much to morale as orkz now do? Do any of their buffs come with a corresponding nerf the same way orkz did? Honest question because I don't play those factions.

But lets look.
Orkz get Dakkagunz! WOOHOO! Also not assault anymore, we also removed DDD so its actually a nerf at anything over half range and also the only real benefit is if you can get within half range with your already short ranged guns.
Orkz get T5! WOOHOO! Also, we hit them with the morale nerf stick and increased their price and nerfed the KFF to not impact them as much.
Orkz get D3 ROKKTIZ! WOOHOO! Also we moved them to heavy instead of assault and to ensure you don't use them in CC on your vehicles that like being in CC we also made them Blast.
Ork Mek Gunz only received a 12.5% increase in price! Ok not bad. Also we removed their ability to split upon deployment, gave them LD4 and you can only field them in units of 3.
Lootas got a price reduction! WOOHOO! But instead of buffing their gun to 2D3 shots or flat 4 shots to make them remotely competitive in a meta which eats them if they are exposed to shooting we instead gave them Dakka 3(2) gunz! Just get within 24' range with your heavy support long range guns to make them a bit more impactful.

And that is before you get into the Kustom jobz which are now a joke at best. Nitro squigs are ok, but about 15pts over priced. Moar dakka is good and maybe the Smoky gubbinz....but the only units with "Spannerz" are Lootas and Burnas. Burnas want to be moving so no benefit and Lootas to get their dakka shot need to be moving to get within 24' range so little benefit to them.



The other thing that I think is worth remembering is that those mid-late 8e codexes were really fleshed out already. Orks had strong, multi-part chapter tactic equivalents that were augmented with Kustom Jobs and new strats from PA. There just wasn't as tall of a hill to climb with Orks versus, I dunno, early 8e codexes. Oh wait, for whatever reason, GW hasn't given most of those armies 9e books yet and instead did this whacky, terrible release schedule.


.....ALLLL of which got taken away or nerfed in the new 9th codex....



Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 15:29:51


Post by: SemperMortis


Which took a mediocre mid level codex and made it competitive. And as Scotty so brilliantly put it...those are all gone or nerfed into oblivion.

Old SSAG was 2D6 shots, which you could spend CP to give it exploding 5s and 6s AND spend CP to make it shoot a second time.

New "SSAG" is 2D3 shots at BS4.

Old SSAG averaged 7 shots and 2.72 hits.
New SSAG averages 4 shots and 2 hits.

New SSAG you can't shoot twice.

I'm still having a good laugh though at the Super Grot Oiler. Pay 10 extra points to make a 5pt Oiler work twice. So total of 15pts to get the benefit of 10pts worth of upgrades which are themselves massively overpriced.

Christ it should be 5pt for an oiler and he functions all game and 10pts to double his effect. Than it might be taken occasionally.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 15:46:35


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 the_scotsman wrote:

.....ALLLL of which got taken away or nerfed in the new 9th codex....



Yeah, man, I just don't get it. Like, it really is a meme as you said in another thread. It's Orks, Nids, or CSM where this crap happens edition-in edition-out. It's why I roll my eyes when people say "play the faction that you like! They all get time in the sun!". People should play the factions that they like of course, but you've gotta acknowledge that there are haves and have-nots.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 15:55:39


Post by: Karol


You could learn to like the factions that always have at least good rules.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 16:50:41


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


Karol wrote:
You could learn to like the factions that always have at least good rules.


You said "factions", I thought it was only Eldar who always have good rules so shouldn't it be "faction"?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/30 18:44:00


Post by: Karol


I don't think elfs ever had bad rules in the history of GW games. So there is more then one faction GW made that was always at least good in their games.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/07/31 15:53:31


Post by: koooaei


I'd prefer it to be (count as 1 better bs at half range) to further drop the need to roll dice.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/01 17:13:04


Post by: SemperMortis


 koooaei wrote:
I'd prefer it to be (count as 1 better bs at half range) to further drop the need to roll dice.


3 shots at BS 5 = 2 Shots at BS 4 = Still not nearly enough dakka.



I really want to rehash this dakka thing so that people understand.

4th edition, it took 9 Boyz to kill 1 Marine in the shooting phase. 9 Boyz = 18 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 1 dead Marine.

9th edition pre-codex: it took 15-16 Boyz in the shooting phase at any range. 15-16 Boyz = (W/DDD) = 36 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds and 1 Dead Marine.
9th Edition post-codex: It now takes 18 boyz at 10-18' range and 12 boyz at 1-9' range.

You can argue that Space Marines weren't durable enough in 4th, but now...holy crap. 4th Ork boyz were 6ppm and Marines were 15ppm. So 54pts to kill 15pts.
9th pre codex: 120-128pts to kill 18pts of Marine.
9th Post codex: Max range/Min Range: 162pts to 108pts to kill 18.

Ork shooting is literally twice as bad as it used to be against Marines. Even if you ignore the most common army type as a measurement, against any target Ork shooting has gotten progressively worse if for no other reason than Orkz in general have gone up 50% in points since 4th while getting almost no upgrade in dmg output from shootas and no getting 1 extra shot at 9' range isn't an upgrade. That "buff" will be so rarely used that it might as well not be there.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/01 18:53:12


Post by: Strg Alt


We wouldn't have this debate and the resulting problems, if GW hadn't make the mistake of giving Orks BS 2 since 3rd.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/01 21:21:29


Post by: Jidmah


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Pretty sure it was a 5+ save in 4th ed. I do not remember it being a 4+ save.
But yeah, the KFF now is crap, especially that stratagem.


In 5th it was 4+ save and there even is a quote from Phil Kelly (the author of the 4th edition codex) playing it exactly that way.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/01 22:46:39


Post by: Sarigar


Not quite sure how it will ultimately shake out for Ork players, but I'm glad to see the change to Mek Gunz. It got old facing 12+ Smasha Gunz all counting as individual weapons once on the table.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/01 23:05:46


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


SemperMortis wrote:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
I am happy they finally took some units with poor number of shots and gave them a much needed boost like Burnaboyz and Lootas but I do lament the lack of DDD on 6s. It was a mechanic I always enjoyed even if it rarely paid dividends for me.


I agree with the majority here for the most part. DDD slowed the game down and added very little value beyond the occasional Rokkit shot and those even rarer instances where a Smasha gun fired 3 shots and ended with 6 hits.

The only problems I see with the new Dakka weapon replacement is

1: Its not assault, they gave orkz a crappier version of salvo weapons. The problem being that most weapons don't benefit from it at all, and the couple that do don't make up for the problem. I have run the numbers for people a number of times, the gist is Shoota boyz just got worse at shooting at mid-long range and got better at 9' or less. How often are shoota boyz getting 9 or less from an enemy and WANTING to shoot the target? Burna boyz got an upgrade, but they also nerfed their CC profile so its a mixed bag there. Lootas....christ lootas. A Loota now averages the same # of shots as a Auto-cannon Havoc. The difference is the Havoc hits on 3s the Loota hits on 5s. 3 lootas average 2 hits. 2 Havocs average 2.66 hits, The havoc also boasts that 3+ save and will likely be getting a 2nd (T5) wound when Chaos gets updated. Lootas and most "Dakka" weapons should have gotten probably 33-50% more shots. A Lootas instead of getting dakka 3(2) should have gotten 4(3). The shoota boyz? same profile 4(3).

2: How it synergizes with the rest of the codex. Orkz just got beaten to death with Morale for large units, and now Shoota boyz are less effective at range, meaning by the time they can actually benefit from there new dakka weapons they will be so depleted that they won't even have enough left to make an impact.


It's more of a crappier version of Rapid Fire than Salvo, since they can move and fire it.

That said, I'm not an Ork player and I don't like the Dakka weapons rule. What was wrong with [most of] them being Assault? Why does there need to be a whole weapons type that's Rapid Fire with 1.5x shots instead of 2x.
What the game doesn't need are more bespoke weapons, and I would hazard that Assault weapons are better for the Orks in general, even with a few more shots from Dakka.

That said, it's a good thing that the DDD rule is gone.






Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 01:45:58


Post by: Daedalus81


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
It's more of a crappier version of Rapid Fire than Salvo, since they can move and fire it.

That said, I'm not an Ork player and I don't like the Dakka weapons rule. What was wrong with [most of] them being Assault? Why does there need to be a whole weapons type that's Rapid Fire with 1.5x shots instead of 2x.
What the game doesn't need are more bespoke weapons, and I would hazard that Assault weapons are better for the Orks in general, even with a few more shots from Dakka.

That said, it's a good thing that the DDD rule is gone.



Even if you could run you wouldn't really want to.

( big shoota ) 3 * .333 = 1 and 5 * .167 = 0.83.

Even choppa bikers double dipping on great Waagh doesn't get them to do better than just letting loose with their guns.

108 * .167 * .666 * .5 = 6
37 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 6 // choppas

vs

108 * .333 * .666 * .5 = 12

It's a false choice that nobody would/should actually use and would wind up being just plink damage most of the time ( aka more dice rolling ).





Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 02:28:24


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:

Even if you could run you wouldn't really want to.

( big shoota ) 3 * .333 = 1 and 5 * .167 = 0.83.

Even choppa bikers double dipping on great Waagh doesn't get them to do better than just letting loose with their guns.

108 * .167 * .666 * .5 = 6
37 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 6 // choppas

vs

108 * .333 * .666 * .5 = 12

It's a false choice that nobody would/should actually use and would wind up being just plink damage most of the time ( aka more dice rolling ).


unless you were running say....evil sunz...whose kulture is literally advance and shoot without penalty for assault weapons.

The idiots who designed the ork codex did so with the intent very clear in that they want ork players to move and get in the face of your opponent fast in order to get into dakkarange. The majority of our most common "dakka" weapons are 9' dakkarange. So again, get into close range to benefit from this rule, but at the same time they also stripped shooting after advancing for 99% of the codex, so they want you to move fast but they actively punish you for doing so. I really mean it when I say the codex was designed by idiots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sarigar wrote:
Not quite sure how it will ultimately shake out for Ork players, but I'm glad to see the change to Mek Gunz. It got old facing 12+ Smasha Gunz all counting as individual weapons once on the table.


Maybe if GW had given orkz ranged weapons that worked, ork players wouldn't have had to rely on the 1 that did so heavily. Don't worry though, Mek Gunz are effectively dead. You will see them in single gun batteries now since if you deploy them as a group of 3, and your opponent kills 1 of them, you have a 50/50 chance to fail morale and lose the 2nd gun, which then means you have a 50/50 of losing the last gun to attrition. Good work GW.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 02:43:22


Post by: Insectum7


SemperMortis wrote:
Spoiler:
Lammia wrote:


Didn't KFFs get better?

Sisters got a bunch of side grades and nerfs to go with a few good buffs. I'm not going to go through them point by point, that's too much to do again. But it's normal.


No, the KFF got beaten with the nerf bat. Dishonest people are trying to claim its a buff but it really isn't.

The KFF several editions ago used to provide a bubble of protection that gave units a 4+ Cover save so long as anyone in the unit touched the bubble. This was a pseudo Invuln save since at the time not many had "Ignores Cover" weapons. Its 8th edition iteration was a bit of a nerf but not bad since it became a 5+ Invuln save. The biggest issue was that it also made the bubble 9' range and the unit had to be wholly within the bubble to receive the benefit. SO you had an 18' diameter bubble of protection, it was a nerf but not that bad since it also became an invuln save. Now, the newest version is a 6+ Invuln save on a 6' bubble but you can toe into the bubble again like in older editions. So theoretically (Bull Gak honestly) you can fit more units under it and give a plethora of models a 6+ invuln they previously didn't have. In reality its a massive nerf because team that with the new Cohesion rules for 9th, the new Mob rule for orkz and our abysmal leadership. You aren't going to be conga lining blobs of 30 boyz back to your Big mek to get a 6+ save, especially since (as i have pointed out to others) instead of getting all those mobz of boyz to conga line back to the KFF Big Mek who also received a hefty price increase to go along with his new "better" KFF you could just upgrade each boy for 2ppm into Snagga boyz who inherently have a 6+++ AND have S5 instead of S4.

BTW, that Big Mek with KFF went from 60pts with a 5+++ 9' bubble wholly within to 85pts with a 6+++ 6' bubble that you have to touch. And before anyone says "Just use the CP to turn it back into the 5+++" yeah no, it costs 2 CP to buff the new KFF into a slightly better version of the older KFF and than it promptly explodes and you can't even use its crappier 6+++ for hte rest of the game. GW has driven home the point they don't want KFF Big mekz on the table.


Thanks for the breakdown. Wow :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
Spoiler:
 koooaei wrote:
I'd prefer it to be (count as 1 better bs at half range) to further drop the need to roll dice.


3 shots at BS 5 = 2 Shots at BS 4 = Still not nearly enough dakka.



I really want to rehash this dakka thing so that people understand.

4th edition, it took 9 Boyz to kill 1 Marine in the shooting phase. 9 Boyz = 18 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 1 dead Marine.

9th edition pre-codex: it took 15-16 Boyz in the shooting phase at any range. 15-16 Boyz = (W/DDD) = 36 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds and 1 Dead Marine.
9th Edition post-codex: It now takes 18 boyz at 10-18' range and 12 boyz at 1-9' range.

You can argue that Space Marines weren't durable enough in 4th, but now...holy crap. 4th Ork boyz were 6ppm and Marines were 15ppm. So 54pts to kill 15pts.
9th pre codex: 120-128pts to kill 18pts of Marine.
9th Post codex: Max range/Min Range: 162pts to 108pts to kill 18.

Ork shooting is literally twice as bad as it used to be against Marines. Even if you ignore the most common army type as a measurement, against any target Ork shooting has gotten progressively worse if for no other reason than Orkz in general have gone up 50% in points since 4th while getting almost no upgrade in dmg output from shootas and no getting 1 extra shot at 9' range isn't an upgrade. That "buff" will be so rarely used that it might as well not be there.
And again. :/

Not a fan of the treatments.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 03:12:30


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I'm still surprised that they changed the Rokkit to Heavy rather than Assault.

Seems like a real step backwards given the playstyle of Orks.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 03:48:39


Post by: Insectum7


^Lame.

God I hope they don't start doing that for Nids.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 05:14:32


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Insectum7 wrote:
God I hope they don't start doing that for Nids.
Barbed Stranglers and Venom Cannons going to Heavy would be horrendous.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 06:48:21


Post by: Wakshaani


Curious how 9 Tankbustas compare to 3 Deffkoptas, since they have a similar role (Rokkit Powah!), similar cost (153 vs 150), but different construction... Koptas are all about scoot n shoot while Tankbustas want to squat and rock, but how do they compare in final damage output? In damage resistance? Heck, melee?

Curious.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 07:48:22


Post by: Kitane


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
God I hope they don't start doing that for Nids.
Barbed Stranglers and Venom Cannons going to Heavy would be horrendous.


That, or if they try to change Synapse to a mere immunity from combat attrition while leaving the units with the lowest leadership values in the game. That would be a disaster for so many datasheets.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 08:28:28


Post by: Blackie


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm still surprised that they changed the Rokkit to Heavy rather than Assault.

Seems like a real step backwards given the playstyle of Orks.


The funny part is that lootas don't carry heavy weapons anymore while their autocannons' equivalent has always been heavy. And they're still a heavy support choice.

Tankbustas who could alwyas move and shoot without penalty now they can't. But even if they carry heavy weapons they're still elites .


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 09:53:13


Post by: Tyel


Just in case it happens and I'll look prescient, I can sort of squint to the KFF having some play as going second insurance.

85 points and the CP is steep - but throwing a 5++ up to blunt certain armies turn 2 death roll (or turn 1 shooting, situation depending) would potentially increase your chances of winning games - because some times you'll roll a disproportionate number of 5s and 6s.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 09:53:50


Post by: Jidmah


Wakshaani wrote:
Curious how 9 Tankbustas compare to 3 Deffkoptas, since they have a similar role (Rokkit Powah!), similar cost (153 vs 150), but different construction... Koptas are all about scoot n shoot while Tankbustas want to squat and rock, but how do they compare in final damage output? In damage resistance? Heck, melee?

Curious.


Squatting with 24" guns and no defense to speak of isn't really an option. Tank bustas haven't changed much in that regard, they still require a transport or tellyporta to get to their targets.

Koptas on the other hand are super flexible and mobile, but are rather easy to kill with dedicated anti-tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:
Just in case it happens and I'll look prescient, I can sort of squint to the KFF having some play as going second insurance.

85 points and the CP is steep - but throwing a 5++ up to blunt certain armies turn 2 death roll (or turn 1 shooting, situation depending) would potentially increase your chances of winning games - because some times you'll roll a disproportionate number of 5s and 6s.


Sorry, but no. This is essentially the "distraction carnifex" argument, if a unit is not worth bringing unless you get lucky or your opponent is making mistakes, it's never worth bringing.

MA meks with ded shiney shoota or a morkanaut have other uses even after they have burned out the KFF, so you could argue for bringing them, especially since there is little opportunity cost besides paying a few points. But bringing a character that has no other use? Nope.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 10:20:15


Post by: Karol


Removed.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 10:21:57


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Jidmah wrote:
Squatting with 24" guns and no defense to speak of isn't really an option. Tank bustas haven't changed much in that regard, they still require a transport or tellyporta to get to their targets.
What about the new Bunker? A unit can sit in that and fire. Or is that just better with Lootas as they have a longer range?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 10:27:37


Post by: Jidmah


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Squatting with 24" guns and no defense to speak of isn't really an option. Tank bustas haven't changed much in that regard, they still require a transport or tellyporta to get to their targets.
What about the new Bunker? A unit can sit in that and fire. Or is that just better with Lootas as they have a longer range?


Sadly, the great rules for deploying fortifications make it just as useless as any other fortification. And technically, that would be using both a transport and tellyporta

Lootas would be better, but you could also just toss them in a trukk to actually line up shots and make use of that Dakka 3/2. Stationary shooting units don't work that well because of terrain - unlike you do with other armies, just shooting through dense terrain isn't really an option.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 10:37:22


Post by: Tyel


 Jidmah wrote:
Sorry, but no. This is essentially the "distraction carnifex" argument, if a unit is not worth bringing unless you get lucky or your opponent is making mistakes, it's never worth bringing.

MA meks with ded shiney shoota or a morkanaut have other uses even after they have burned out the KFF, so you could argue for bringing them, especially since there is little opportunity cost besides paying a few points. But bringing a character that has no other use? Nope.


Fair point. I hadn't considered the MA Mek with Ded Shiney Shoota. That seems like a reasonable combo that would do what I had in mind better (if it works at all that is.)


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 10:39:33


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Jidmah wrote:
Lootas would be better, but you could also just toss them in a trukk to actually line up shots and make use of that Dakka 3/2. Stationary shooting units don't work that well because of terrain - unlike you do with other armies, just shooting through dense terrain isn't really an option.
Ah right, yes. BS5. Cover basically halves your output. Fair enough.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 10:45:51


Post by: Blackie


Since they carry heavy weapons at the moment fielding tankbustas could make sense only as some sort of gamble. Position them near the centre of the board (on foot in cover or embarked in a trukk) and hope for 1st turn. This way they'll most likely have a juicy target to aim at, hitting it on 4s. Then hope for getting an high number of shots.

Tankbustas hitting on 6s or even 5s are simply not worthy. That's why I call them a gamble, there's no reliable plan to make them good, just pray that they can get their job done in turn 1. They have the potential to do great things, but they highly depend on luck.

It doesn't help the fact that there are several units in the codex that can compete for the same job. Lootas at least have a different weapon's profile and can be played in a much more intelligent way. Flash gitz also have the same problems of tankbustas but, like lootas, their weapons have a different profile and for that they can have a role and since modiefiers are capped at +/-1 they'd still on 5s in worst case scenarios.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 12:34:01


Post by: Karol


Tankbustas could only work if they had a flat 4 number of shots, possibly with access to re-rolls. They would still be a gamble unit, like anything that has its initial roll based around a 50/50 or worse roll.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 12:42:46


Post by: Blackie


20-30 S8 AP-2 (or -3 if boomboyz) D3 hitting on 4s is certainly good for 170 points. And a chance of dealing a few mortal wounds for an additional 5 points eventually. Problem is it's hard to even let them fire once at full potential. 4 shots and re-rolls is OP territory and too much dice rolling. Tankbustas simply needed to fire without the penalty of their heavy weapons to be competitive.

They were competitive when they could arrive by deepstrike/outflank, even with 1 shot per model + DDD + re-rolls against vehicles which is basically the equivalent of +1 to hit vs vehicles and D3 shots with blast, plus easier access to a cumulative AP bonus (boomboyz or a even just few hits if bad moons).


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 14:42:11


Post by: the_scotsman


Karol wrote:
I don't think elfs ever had bad rules in the history of GW games. So there is more then one faction GW made that was always at least good in their games.


"The Elfs" very often have bad rules. CWE have good rules generally, but I've played Dark Eldar and Harlequins thru multiple editions where they were the worst rock-bottom bad army around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
20-30 S8 AP-2 (or -3 if boomboyz) D3 hitting on 4s is certainly good for 170 points. And a chance of dealing a few mortal wounds for an additional 5 points eventually. Problem is it's hard to even let them fire once at full potential. 4 shots and re-rolls is OP territory and too much dice rolling. Tankbustas simply needed to fire without the penalty of their heavy weapons to be competitive.

They were competitive when they could arrive by deepstrike/outflank, even with 1 shot per model + DDD + re-rolls against vehicles which is basically the equivalent of +1 to hit vs vehicles and D3 shots with blast, plus easier access to a cumulative AP bonus (boomboyz or a even just few hits if bad moons).


...It's not that hard, you take them in a trukk as Bad Moonz where they get 30" range.

Ask a marine player how hard it is to have a shooty unit with 30" range stand around as a stationary gun turret all game shooting at full capacity.. Or you play them as the other shooty subfaction, Freebootas, and you trigger Competitive Streak to get them +2 to hit so they dont care about moving and shooting at all.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 14:54:33


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 the_scotsman wrote:
Karol wrote:
I don't think elfs ever had bad rules in the history of GW games. So there is more then one faction GW made that was always at least good in their games.


"The Elfs" very often have bad rules. CWE have good rules generally, but I've played Dark Eldar and Harlequins thru multiple editions where they were the worst rock-bottom bad army around.




Yep, and taking it fully literally, the literally dudes/dudettes with pointy ears (i.e. "The Elfs") are usually pretty pants. There's basically 1 or 2 Aspect Warriors who are really good/OP who get spammed, and nobody runs the others. And I'm not sure of a time when Guardians actually have had anything to make them as desirable as comparable line troops like Guardsmen or Fire Warriors (not that those are desirable now obviously).


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 15:20:22


Post by: Jidmah


I'd like to point out that "The Elfs" are not on topic. Don't fall for the troll bait every time, guys.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 17:51:07


Post by: Blackie


 the_scotsman wrote:


...It's not that hard, you take them in a trukk as Bad Moonz where they get 30" range.



10 bustas in a trukk cost 240 points, including the transport. Two scrapjets are 180 points but they're way more resilient overall, have comparable firepower, can move and fire without penalties and have some decent close combat ability. If we consider three scrapjets, 270 vs 240 points, there's really no competition.

Destroying a trukk and then 10 t-shirt save guys is trivial and that's what happens if the ork player goes second, trukk can't be hidden (unless it's Freebootas) otherwise it needs to move next turn and the crew fires with a penalty, while hiding the buggies is possible. If ork player goes first and rolls poor or even average on the D3 shots, those 240 points of stuff would still be disappointing, since they won't have a second chance.

To make trukk bustaboyz work you need first turn and to roll high on the D3 shots. Other rokkit platforms are far more reliable, that's what makes them a gamble.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 20:19:50


Post by: Broadway


So the average of a tankbusta hitting with rokkits...
Tankbusta average while moving is 2/6
Tankbusta average while stationary 4/6
Overall average for tankbustas is 3/6

Deffkopta average hitting with rokkits is 8/6

tankbustas are 17pt each, so three tankbustas per deffkopta, by points, and you get..

(3) tankbustas average while moving - 6/6
(3) tankbustas average while stationary - 12/6
(3) tank bustas overall average - 9/6

When using power levels, you get 10 tankbustas or 3 deffkoptas for power level 8, which gives you...

(10) tankbustas average while moving - 20/6
(10) tankbustas average while stationary - 40/6
(10) tankbustas overall average - 30/6

(3) Deffkoptas average - 24/6


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 20:37:27


Post by: Blackie


9 tankbustas have basically the same cost as 3 deffkoptas which is the min squad: 9D3 shots with +1 to hit against vehicles vs 6D3 shots with no penalties if the models move.

9 stationary tankbustas targeting a vehicle get 9 hits on average, 3 koptas firing at the same target get 4 hits instead. Against a non-vehicle tankbustas get 6 hits on average. 9D3 also means up to 27 shots, while koptas can only fire 18 at most.

Tankbustas have clearly more potential but it's harder to max it out. And koptas also have native deep strike, better movement, better melee ability and they're more resilient.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 21:45:33


Post by: Karol


 the_scotsman wrote:


"The Elfs" very often have bad rules. CWE have good rules generally, but I've played Dark Eldar and Harlequins thru multiple editions where they were the worst rock-bottom bad army around.



When I write elfs, I mean elfs. From what I know the sun elfs, never had a bad rules, and were in fact on the OP said of rules everytime GW put them out. In AoS the evil, sea and sun elfs are power houses too. I don't know how many edition fantasy had, but even if it lasted for 30 years, having elfs be top army in most editions would still be a long time of being good.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/02 21:55:41


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:

unless you were running say....evil sunz...whose kulture is literally advance and shoot without penalty for assault weapons.

The idiots who designed the ork codex did so with the intent very clear in that they want ork players to move and get in the face of your opponent fast in order to get into dakkarange. The majority of our most common "dakka" weapons are 9' dakkarange. So again, get into close range to benefit from this rule, but at the same time they also stripped shooting after advancing for 99% of the codex, so they want you to move fast but they actively punish you for doing so. I really mean it when I say the codex was designed by idiots.


Evil Sunz are an even stronger reason to not allow it since you would greatly unbalance the value of other clans.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/03 02:26:30


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

unless you were running say....evil sunz...whose kulture is literally advance and shoot without penalty for assault weapons.

The idiots who designed the ork codex did so with the intent very clear in that they want ork players to move and get in the face of your opponent fast in order to get into dakkarange. The majority of our most common "dakka" weapons are 9' dakkarange. So again, get into close range to benefit from this rule, but at the same time they also stripped shooting after advancing for 99% of the codex, so they want you to move fast but they actively punish you for doing so. I really mean it when I say the codex was designed by idiots.


Evil Sunz are an even stronger reason to not allow it since you would greatly unbalance the value of other clans.


You mean like what they had for all of 8th edition and 9th up until now? It wasn't breaking the game nor was it unbalanced. A warbike being able to shoot on the move would allow it the chance of actually getting into Dakka range with its dakkagunz. A 25pt Warbike would get 10 shots, 3.33 hits and against a Space Marine 2.22 wounds and 0.7dmg. If you really think that is going to "unbalance" the game than I don't know what to tell you. As far as internal balance...GW could have maybe made the other factions better as well. Most of the serious 40k tournament players and tactics reviewers are openly saying the Ork codex is a significantly tamer codex than any previously released. I honestly think we are going to have a lot of struggles this edition.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/03 04:18:32


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


So my primary opponent over the last year has been my dad, I play a bunch of different armies and he plays four and early on we made the agreement that we would play 8th codexs against 8th codexs and 9th codexs against 9th codexs. The design philosophy is a radical change when it is between the two editions. So far, Orks have done poorly against even 8th codexs like Guard.

To me it feels a lot like the 8th edition Tyranid codex where they got worse versions of other factions rules with stipulations on how they can be used. For example look at Ramshackle, a simple -1 Damage on attacks. Something that my Death Guard get standard but for Orks it only effects weapons S7 and lower....How many multi-damage weapons do you know of that are S7 or lower? The only weapon that I have found in my dad's armies is the autocannon, which is not exactly a meta weapon right now.

I know that there are some gems in the Ork codex but as someone who played Green Tide Snakebites, not exactly a powerful list, or a Deathskullz Dread Mob I am not exactly thrilled. I do look forward to playing some Squighogs and Killrigs alongside my Squiggoths but they do not seem like they are going to be terribly competitive and I basically have to buy a brand new army.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/03 14:09:40


Post by: Jidmah


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Evil Sunz are an even stronger reason to not allow it since you would greatly unbalance the value of other clans.


Not really, the main reason why they were comparable to other clans at all last edition was because of +1 to charges from deep strike and a good psychic power. I tried the whole advancing and charging part for my buggy lists quite a bit and it's not a huge boost at all.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/03 14:25:03


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Karol wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


"The Elfs" very often have bad rules. CWE have good rules generally, but I've played Dark Eldar and Harlequins thru multiple editions where they were the worst rock-bottom bad army around.



When I write elfs, I mean elfs. From what I know the sun elfs, never had a bad rules, and were in fact on the OP said of rules everytime GW put them out. In AoS the evil, sea and sun elfs are power houses too. I don't know how many edition fantasy had, but even if it lasted for 30 years, having elfs be top army in most editions would still be a long time of being good.


Can you please just stop with your Elf hate fetish holy gak. Do you even play AoS or are you just assuming everything with pointy ears is OP broken.
Craftworld have sucked to play from an enjoyment perspective theres nothing fun in spamming the one or two overtuned unit in the codex while the rest rots on the shelves.
Drukhari were fine in 8th, harlequins were actually bad in 8th until they got their PA
Ynnari are a meme at this point.

On-topic : I think DDD being gone is great for the flow of he game, playing against orks is already super painful because of how many "non-interactive actions" they are resolving during their turns (mainly moving stuff around). Adding rerolls on top of that just turned the game into a snoozefest, especially when playing less experienced players that are often faced with decision paralysis (not blaming DDD for that part).

I think most of the outcry thats been going on about the orks is because it changes how theyve been played for a long time for a way that is less lore-accurate. I can sympathise with that, im not an ork player myself but having my CSM outclasses by cultists feels terrible. My only hope is that the ork codex at least brings you guys some fun ways to play them.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/03 15:18:19


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:


You mean like what they had for all of 8th edition and 9th up until now? It wasn't breaking the game nor was it unbalanced. A warbike being able to shoot on the move would allow it the chance of actually getting into Dakka range with its dakkagunz. A 25pt Warbike would get 10 shots, 3.33 hits and against a Space Marine 2.22 wounds and 0.7dmg. If you really think that is going to "unbalance" the game than I don't know what to tell you. As far as internal balance...GW could have maybe made the other factions better as well. Most of the serious 40k tournament players and tactics reviewers are openly saying the Ork codex is a significantly tamer codex than any previously released. I honestly think we are going to have a lot of struggles this edition.


The situation is advance, shoot, and charge.

Warbikes are the unit that benefits from both ends of the Waaagh. Such a unit would, if it could advance and shoot without penalty --

Move 16", Advance 6". You are now two inches from their DZ with a unit that gets a reroll to charge and full Waaagh. And not just that single unit. Every one of them you take.

108 * .333 * .666 * .5 = 12 wounds to MEQ

And then they charge.

37 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 6 wounds to MEQ

So you have an Evil Sunz unit that can drop 18 wounds and then put 27 4+ into melee where they'll be insanely difficult to remove. OR you have a unit that can do one of those things not both. How exactly do you pick anything other than Evil Sunz warbikes?

I'd wager you could conceivably pop a raider and charge wipe passengers.



Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/03 15:36:56


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:


You mean like what they had for all of 8th edition and 9th up until now? It wasn't breaking the game nor was it unbalanced. A warbike being able to shoot on the move would allow it the chance of actually getting into Dakka range with its dakkagunz. A 25pt Warbike would get 10 shots, 3.33 hits and against a Space Marine 2.22 wounds and 0.7dmg. If you really think that is going to "unbalance" the game than I don't know what to tell you. As far as internal balance...GW could have maybe made the other factions better as well. Most of the serious 40k tournament players and tactics reviewers are openly saying the Ork codex is a significantly tamer codex than any previously released. I honestly think we are going to have a lot of struggles this edition.


The situation is advance, shoot, and charge.

Warbikes are the unit that benefits from both ends of the Waaagh. Such a unit would, if it could advance and shoot without penalty --

Move 16", Advance 6". You are now two inches from their DZ with a unit that gets a reroll to charge and full Waaagh. And not just that single unit. Every one of them you take.

108 * .333 * .666 * .5 = 12 wounds to MEQ

And then they charge.

37 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 6 wounds to MEQ

So you have an Evil Sunz unit that can drop 18 wounds and then put 27 4+ into melee where they'll be insanely difficult to remove. OR you have a unit that can do one of those things not both. How exactly do you pick anything other than Evil Sunz warbikes?

I'd wager you could conceivably pop a raider and charge wipe passengers.


Ah so that's your complaint, if I take Ghazghkull...a 300pt character in a Goff detachment I could then theoretically spend more CP to take an Evil Sunz detachment, than warbikers benefit from his Grand Waaaagh and would be REALLY GOOD! for 1 turn, and good for a 2nd turn. So your theoretical scenario here where 18 wounds are inflicted to a MEQ unit (thats 9 dead Marines or 180pts of intercessors) just from the cost of Ghaz and the unit of warbikers works out to 9x25 = 225pts +Ghaz = 525pts. So a 225pt unit would be capable of killing 180pts of Intercessors while they are being directly buffed by a once a game buff from a 300pt character who isn't even the best beat stick in the army right now and whose only real purpose would be to provide that buff. Yep...totally game breaking. I mean, its not like other armies have things like say...Eradicators, who can make back their points in a single turn from just using their own inherent abilities with no secondary buffs and can repeat this ability as long as they are alive.

Your complaint basically boils down to "Warbikers receiving other buffs from other characters become too good!" which 1 isn't true and 2, every army can do this. I can't remember who it was but someone did the math where a unit of assault intercessors were able to one shot a Knight in CC with specific buffs That doesn't make Assault intercessors OP, nor does it mean GW should nerf all abilities into the ground so that doesn't happen. The costs associated with what you are complaining about are absurdly high. Not to mention the fact that the math only works if those Warbikers actually have a target worth engaging both in CC and at 9' range.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/03 15:46:49


Post by: Tyel


Waaagh da Sun Elfs.

I guess we'll see on the Orks. I think there are some dud entries - but I'm still convinced by the specialist green squig tide, and all the buggies*.

*Footprint and terrain seems likely to be a bigger problem than anything with the units themselves.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/04 02:17:22


Post by: Daedalus81


Spoiler:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:


You mean like what they had for all of 8th edition and 9th up until now? It wasn't breaking the game nor was it unbalanced. A warbike being able to shoot on the move would allow it the chance of actually getting into Dakka range with its dakkagunz. A 25pt Warbike would get 10 shots, 3.33 hits and against a Space Marine 2.22 wounds and 0.7dmg. If you really think that is going to "unbalance" the game than I don't know what to tell you. As far as internal balance...GW could have maybe made the other factions better as well. Most of the serious 40k tournament players and tactics reviewers are openly saying the Ork codex is a significantly tamer codex than any previously released. I honestly think we are going to have a lot of struggles this edition.


The situation is advance, shoot, and charge.

Warbikes are the unit that benefits from both ends of the Waaagh. Such a unit would, if it could advance and shoot without penalty --

Move 16", Advance 6". You are now two inches from their DZ with a unit that gets a reroll to charge and full Waaagh. And not just that single unit. Every one of them you take.

108 * .333 * .666 * .5 = 12 wounds to MEQ

And then they charge.

37 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 6 wounds to MEQ

So you have an Evil Sunz unit that can drop 18 wounds and then put 27 4+ into melee where they'll be insanely difficult to remove. OR you have a unit that can do one of those things not both. How exactly do you pick anything other than Evil Sunz warbikes?

I'd wager you could conceivably pop a raider and charge wipe passengers.


Ah so that's your complaint, if I take Ghazghkull...a 300pt character in a Goff detachment I could then theoretically spend more CP to take an Evil Sunz detachment, than warbikers benefit from his Grand Waaaagh and would be REALLY GOOD! for 1 turn, and good for a 2nd turn. So your theoretical scenario here where 18 wounds are inflicted to a MEQ unit (thats 9 dead Marines or 180pts of intercessors) just from the cost of Ghaz and the unit of warbikers works out to 9x25 = 225pts +Ghaz = 525pts. So a 225pt unit would be capable of killing 180pts of Intercessors while they are being directly buffed by a once a game buff from a 300pt character who isn't even the best beat stick in the army right now and whose only real purpose would be to provide that buff. Yep...totally game breaking. I mean, its not like other armies have things like say...Eradicators, who can make back their points in a single turn from just using their own inherent abilities with no secondary buffs and can repeat this ability as long as they are alive.

Your complaint basically boils down to "Warbikers receiving other buffs from other characters become too good!" which 1 isn't true and 2, every army can do this. I can't remember who it was but someone did the math where a unit of assault intercessors were able to one shot a Knight in CC with specific buffs That doesn't make Assault intercessors OP, nor does it mean GW should nerf all abilities into the ground so that doesn't happen. The costs associated with what you are complaining about are absurdly high. Not to mention the fact that the math only works if those Warbikers actually have a target worth engaging both in CC and at 9' range.


You don't need ghaz. You can achieve a close enough result with just one waaagh.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/04 06:20:00


Post by: Eonfuzz


meh, orks lost all their interesting rules for a generic stat buff. Whatever.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/04 13:26:10


Post by: koooaei


SemperMortis wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
I'd prefer it to be (count as 1 better bs at half range) to further drop the need to roll dice.


3 shots at BS 5 = 2 Shots at BS 4 = Still not nearly enough dakka.



I really want to rehash this dakka thing so that people understand.

4th edition, it took 9 Boyz to kill 1 Marine in the shooting phase. 9 Boyz = 18 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 1 dead Marine.

9th edition pre-codex: it took 15-16 Boyz in the shooting phase at any range. 15-16 Boyz = (W/DDD) = 36 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds and 1 Dead Marine.
9th Edition post-codex: It now takes 18 boyz at 10-18' range and 12 boyz at 1-9' range.

You can argue that Space Marines weren't durable enough in 4th, but now...holy crap. 4th Ork boyz were 6ppm and Marines were 15ppm. So 54pts to kill 15pts.
9th pre codex: 120-128pts to kill 18pts of Marine.
9th Post codex: Max range/Min Range: 162pts to 108pts to kill 18.

Ork shooting is literally twice as bad as it used to be against Marines. Even if you ignore the most common army type as a measurement, against any target Ork shooting has gotten progressively worse if for no other reason than Orkz in general have gone up 50% in points since 4th while getting almost no upgrade in dmg output from shootas and no getting 1 extra shot at 9' range isn't an upgrade. That "buff" will be so rarely used that it might as well not be there.


It's not right to take shootaboyz and call their shooting "ork shooting". Why not take a skrapjet or a blastajet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cause the things you say are more of a shootaboy'z problem.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/04 13:50:28


Post by: the_scotsman


Karol wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


"The Elfs" very often have bad rules. CWE have good rules generally, but I've played Dark Eldar and Harlequins thru multiple editions where they were the worst rock-bottom bad army around.



When I write elfs, I mean elfs. From what I know the sun elfs, never had a bad rules, and were in fact on the OP said of rules everytime GW put them out. In AoS the evil, sea and sun elfs are power houses too. I don't know how many edition fantasy had, but even if it lasted for 30 years, having elfs be top army in most editions would still be a long time of being good.


Idoneth deepkin are bottom tier. You're full of gak, as always, and completely off topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:


...It's not that hard, you take them in a trukk as Bad Moonz where they get 30" range.



10 bustas in a trukk cost 240 points, including the transport. Two scrapjets are 180 points but they're way more resilient overall, have comparable firepower, can move and fire without penalties and have some decent close combat ability. If we consider three scrapjets, 270 vs 240 points, there's really no competition.

Destroying a trukk and then 10 t-shirt save guys is trivial and that's what happens if the ork player goes second, trukk can't be hidden (unless it's Freebootas) otherwise it needs to move next turn and the crew fires with a penalty, while hiding the buggies is possible. If ork player goes first and rolls poor or even average on the D3 shots, those 240 points of stuff would still be disappointing, since they won't have a second chance.

To make trukk bustaboyz work you need first turn and to roll high on the D3 shots. Other rokkit platforms are far more reliable, that's what makes them a gamble.


....wouldn't 3 skrapjets have 9d3 5+ to hit rokkit shots +3 4+ to hit rokkit shots vs 10d3 4+ to hit rokkit shots from the tankbustas? so 7.5 rokkit hits against vehicles vs 10 for 30 more points? in terms of durability you're most likely right, and I do think overall 3x skrapjets are better, I'm just trying to figure out if there's something I'm missing in terms of antitank firepower.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/04 14:39:35


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:


Ah so that's your complaint, if I take Ghazghkull...a 300pt character in a Goff detachment I could then theoretically spend more CP to take an Evil Sunz detachment, than warbikers benefit from his Grand Waaaagh and would be REALLY GOOD! for 1 turn, and good for a 2nd turn. So your theoretical scenario here where 18 wounds are inflicted to a MEQ unit (thats 9 dead Marines or 180pts of intercessors) just from the cost of Ghaz and the unit of warbikers works out to 9x25 = 225pts +Ghaz = 525pts. So a 225pt unit would be capable of killing 180pts of Intercessors while they are being directly buffed by a once a game buff from a 300pt character who isn't even the best beat stick in the army right now and whose only real purpose would be to provide that buff. Yep...totally game breaking. I mean, its not like other armies have things like say...Eradicators, who can make back their points in a single turn from just using their own inherent abilities with no secondary buffs and can repeat this ability as long as they are alive.

Your complaint basically boils down to "Warbikers receiving other buffs from other characters become too good!" which 1 isn't true and 2, every army can do this. I can't remember who it was but someone did the math where a unit of assault intercessors were able to one shot a Knight in CC with specific buffs That doesn't make Assault intercessors OP, nor does it mean GW should nerf all abilities into the ground so that doesn't happen. The costs associated with what you are complaining about are absurdly high. Not to mention the fact that the math only works if those Warbikers actually have a target worth engaging both in CC and at 9' range.


You don't need ghaz. You can achieve a close enough result with just one waaagh.


No, you really can't. Speedwaaagh ironically is a strictly shooting buff, regular Waaaagh allows the army to advance and charge, so you literally can't achieve a similar result with just 1 waaagh.

If you get just the speedwaaagh....the only real benefit over how they are currently worded is you might sneak in a few extra dakkashots with advance. So keeping shooting after advancing wouldn't have been broken or OP. You could take a Speedboss and give him the "fasta den yooz" warlord trait which allows ONE unit to advance and charge but at that point you are kneecapping your warlord for this minor buff. So again, the only benefit would be moving 16' advancing 7 and than getting dakkarange on 9' Keeping in mind they already can go 16 and Dakka 9. So you gain an extra 7' of movement to get a different unit into Dakkarange at best.

If you take the regular waaaagh and you advance and shoot before charging...its 10 S5 shots at BS5 no AP. averages out to the aforementioned 3.33 hits, 2.22 wounds and 0.74dmg to a Marine. So again, not broken. Unless you really think 75pts of Warbikers killing an 18pt Marine before charging is "broken" in which case may I refer you to the plethora of other units that do more than that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 koooaei wrote:


It's not right to take shootaboyz and call their shooting "ork shooting". Why not take a skrapjet or a blastajet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cause the things you say are more of a shootaboy'z problem.


Because its not just an ork shootaboyz problem, they are just the most glaring problem with the current "buffs". I mean hell, they could have just given orkz regular Rapid Fire rules and it would have been better for the most part. Dakka Weapons in general aren't great. The Scrapjet you mentioned comes out ok but not because of the new Dakka rules, but because GW changed its primary weapon and gave it an extra D3 shots (went from 2D3 to 3D3)

A heavy Bolter went from D1 to D2, big shoota's which were always the Ork equivalent went from Assualt 3 to Dakka 5(3).

Keeping in mind the fact that a Big shoota was never worth 2pts let alone 5 it gained an extra 66% dmg output at half range. A Heavy Bolter gained 100% dmg output at all ranges.

A single Heavy Bolter against a T4 3+ save 2 wound target is 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.33dmg on average.
A single Big Shoota at Half range is 5 shots, 1.66 hits, 1.11 wounds and 0.37dmg. to equal the same dmg output as a single Heavy bolter you need 3.6 of them, all within half range. If you don't get within half range its 3 shots, 1 hit, 0.66 Wounds and 0.22dmg which means you need 6 to equal the dmg of 1 heavy bolter.

Against softer targets like a guardsmen the heavy bolter is less effective, 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.66 wounds and 1.38 dmg for 1.38 dead Guardsmen.
The Big shoota at half range is 5 shots, 1.66 hits, 1.11 wounds and 0.74dmg So 2 Big shootas at half range is about equal to 1 Heavy Bolter at all ranges. At any range longer than 18 its 3 shots, 1 hit, 0.66 wounds and 0.44dmg so you need 3.13 Big shootas to inflict the same dmg.

So again, its not just shootaboyz suffering from this "buff" its most ork weaponry that was changed to the new Dakka weapon type. I was hoping GW would realize how pathetic most ork shooting is and buff it to at least be threatening, boy were we wrong.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/04 16:19:14


Post by: koooaei


Big shootas are great with speedwaaagh, I have no idea what you're complaining about.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/04 16:46:53


Post by: xttz


That's a whole lotta words to prove that the melee-focused faction with 5pt heavy weapons don't shoot as well as the all-rounder faction with 10/15pt heavy weapons. Good job.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/04 16:55:52


Post by: SemperMortis


 koooaei wrote:
Big shootas are great with speedwaaagh, I have no idea what you're complaining about.


Sure, and I didn't add that in just like I didn't add in super doctrines for marines which gives the heavy bolter +1 AP. Same effect.

big shootas are not "Great" with the speedwaaagh, they are ok with the speedwaaagh. To get the same dmg potential as a Heavy bolter at 36' range, even during a Speedwaaagh you have to shoot 4 big shootas. 12 shots, 4 hits, 2.6 wounds and 1.3 dmg Vs the Heavy bolter's 3 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and 1.33dmg

A heavy bolter is a 10pt upgrade for Marines, a Big shoota is a 5pt upgrade for Orkz. So just in terms of cost for weapon upgrades the Big shootas are 2x more expensive.

The gist of the entire argument is that GW did not buff Ork weaponry enough to compete in the current meta's especially when compared to how buffed Imperial weaponry got.

Heck, look at anti-tank weapons. When thew new melta rules came out Marine/imperial players were saying "just wait for your codex" in regards to the disparity in dmg. Well, we now have the codex. A Multi-melta gained an extra shot and +2dmg at half range. It averages 5.5dmg per unsaved wound. What did Orkz get? Our rokkitz became heavy and D3 So we lost mobility but gained an average 1 extra shot per rokkit, they remained flat 3D. Compare that to Eradicators in general, Against a T8 3+ model a unit of 3 eradicators with heavy rifles and MM is 155pts I can take 9 Tankbustas for the same price.

Eradicators = 4 shots with Heavy Rifles and 4 shots with MM. each is 2.66 hits, 1.33 wounds. At max range its right about 12dmg
Tankbustas = 18 shots, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds and 9dmg.

None of that includes penalties to hit from moving, nor does it include stratagems, chapter tactics kultures etc. And between the 2 units, which do you think is harder to shift? Both are T5, both have 9 wounds but the Eradicators are 3+ while the tankbustas are 6+. Those Tankbustas are supposed to be glass cannons, they dish out a lot of dmg and than die. But for some reason the Gravis Marines with way better durability are putting out a lot more dmg while also being tankier.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/04 17:00:57


Post by: Tyel


Scrapjets in Speedwaaagh get a 70% return versus Intercessors, rising to 95% if you can get Freebooterz off.

Not sure it would work outside of Planet Bowling Ball due to base sizes, but I would be interested to see what a list like this would do:

Freebooterz - Patrol+Outrider
Wartrike
Big Mek with Mega Armour+KFF
11 Grots (5 points spare - could take a grot oiler instead just because you can)
9 Scrapjets
6 Squigbuggies
3 Dakkajets

If your opponent can't LOS everything from the Scrapjets it seems like their stuff is just going to die in droves.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/04 17:04:46


Post by: SemperMortis


 xttz wrote:
That's a whole lotta words to prove that the melee-focused faction with 5pt heavy weapons don't shoot as well as the all-rounder faction with 10/15pt heavy weapons. Good job.


5 Assault intercessors vs 10 Boyz.

Intercessors get 21 attacks turn 1, 14 hits and kill about 5 boyz on average. (4.6)
10 Boyz get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg for 2.5 dead Marines.

Morale Phase. Marines auto-pass because LD 8 - 2 = 6.
Orkz are LD7 - 5 = 2. 66% chance to fail, lose 2 more models to attrition and failed morale check.

6.6 Dead Boyz = 59.4
2.5 Dead Marines = 47.5

thats a whole lotta words to prove that the melee-focused faction (BTW orkz aren't melee focused, go read our codex) with 5pt DAKKA weapons don't shoot or Melee as well as the all-rounder faction with 10/15pt heavy weapons. Good job.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/04 17:42:51


Post by: koooaei


A skrapjet deals around 6 wounds to a t7 3+ vehicle on a speedwaaagh but without freeboota +1 to hit. It's fast, cheap, durable and has access to 5++ and -1 to hit.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/05 09:54:16


Post by: Jidmah


 xttz wrote:
That's a whole lotta words to prove that the melee-focused faction with 5pt heavy weapons don't shoot as well as the all-rounder faction with 10/15pt heavy weapons. Good job.

Orks are not a melee focused army.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/05 10:04:44


Post by: Karol


Well if their shoting is not that optimal either, then what are they then? Because the only thing I can think of is a faction that achives its goals by running out of time and having huge 50 min turns, while opponents are not that willing to split the cost of an extra hour of playing, just so they have yet another 40 min turn.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/05 12:36:43


Post by: SemperMortis


Karol wrote:
Well if their shoting is not that optimal either, then what are they then? Because the only thing I can think of is a faction that achives its goals by running out of time and having huge 50 min turns, while opponents are not that willing to split the cost of an extra hour of playing, just so they have yet another 40 min turn.


Orkz are the Soviet style horde faction. Where a Space Marine can use a super elite bolt gun and hit its target regularly, Orkz instead take 5 crappy shootas and accomplish the same task.

You are literally on a website called DAKKA DAKKA which is an ORK term meaning shooting/guns. Ork units are supposed to be 1 for 1 inferior to other factions units but ork units are supposed to be extremely cheap to make up for this. Where you can take 1 tank I can take 3 etc. The problem is GW keeps forgetting this and worse, when they do remember, they only remember the "Orkz units are inferior" part and not the "extremely cheap" part. Look at the Loota as an example of how codex creep has ruined the concept of this. A loota in like 4th - 6th was an ok unit, it had literally 3-4x as much fire power as imperial counterparts but it also hit 3-4x less, it was fluffy, fun, and competitive but not overbearing. Since than, other factions weapons have matched ork firepower potential and even surpassed it while also being significantly more reliable in terms of shooting. Case and point, look at how a loota even with our "buffed" dakka weapons compares to a Chaos havoc armed with an auto-cannon. The Marine actually point for point hits about the exact same but he is also SIGNIFICANTLY more durable with 3+ armor, and prior to our new codex he was also T5 compared to our T4. Its not a leap of logic to see that GW has forgotten how to write rules.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/05 18:50:13


Post by: koooaei


Karol wrote:
Well if their shoting is not that optimal either, then what are they then? Because the only thing I can think of is a faction that achives its goals by running out of time and having huge 50 min turns, while opponents are not that willing to split the cost of an extra hour of playing, just so they have yet another 40 min turn.


I'd say that orks are decent at both roles. And they're supposed to have easier time mixing the elements. If for the most part we were mostly better at mellee with some ok-ish shooty components (at least since 5th ed till mid 8th), we're better at shooting now. However, we do have some good mellee elements but they have no chance of going toe to toe with mellee from other top books.

Anywayz, if you ask me, currently we're a top-tier army able to hold our own even vs de and admech if we get 1st turn. But the archetype has changed significantly and we have to ditch most of our old units. Boyz are weak and most tourney lists will forego all the troops except for grots - min or 30 for bauble wrap vs enemy first turn charges. Mek gunz got a nerf and can only realisticslly be taken solo, so you'll ever get to see 3 tops down from 6-18 you used to see in tourney lists. However, buggies - and especially skrapjets are very good, all the new stuff, except for anything footslogging, is also very good - all the squig units rate from very good to broken good, most vehicles got some sort of a buff, heck, there's even a number of reasons to run killa kanz now.

So,overall, the codex is a serious buff rulewise. And a serious nerf to the walletfor anyone who hadn't been running skrapjet spam previously.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/05 18:57:57


Post by: SemperMortis


 koooaei wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well if their shoting is not that optimal either, then what are they then? Because the only thing I can think of is a faction that achives its goals by running out of time and having huge 50 min turns, while opponents are not that willing to split the cost of an extra hour of playing, just so they have yet another 40 min turn.


I'd say that orks are decent at both roles. And they're supposed to have easier time mixing the elements. If for the most part we were mostly better at mellee with some ok-ish shooty components (at least since 5th ed till mid 8th), we're better at shooting now. However, we do have some good mellee elements but they have no chance of going toe to toe with mellee from other top books.

Anywayz, if you ask me, currently we're a top-tier army able to hold our own even vs de and admech if we get 1st turn. But the archetype has changed significantly and we have to ditch most of our old units. Boyz are weak and most tourney lists will forego all the troops except for grots - min or 30 for bauble wrap vs enemy first turn charges. Mek gunz got a nerf and can only realisticslly be taken solo, so you'll ever get to see 3 tops down from 6-18 you used to see in tourney lists. However, buggies - and especially skrapjets are very good, all the new stuff, except for anything footslogging, is also very good - all the squig units rate from very good to broken good, most vehicles got some sort of a buff, heck, there's even a number of reasons to run killa kanz now.

So,overall, the codex is a serious buff rulewise. And a serious nerf to the walletfor anyone who hadn't been running skrapjet spam previously.


Kanz are still hot garbage, you are correct with buggies, but not because they got better Damage wise for the most part, but because they dropped 20ppm on average.

Scrapjets went from 110 to 90pts and gained more shots with all of their weapons except the wing missile It now averages 2 Rokkit Kannon hits a turn instead of 1.33 Big shootas got....better...not really, but if you can get 18' range you get an extra 2 shots per gun which on the scrapjet means 8 extra shots or 2.66 extra hits.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/05 19:13:18


Post by: koooaei


Skrapjets got extra rokkit shots, extra app on all weapons for 2 turns, which is the most serious buff, got ramshackle AND got 20 pt cheaper.
If you want to count stuff, they got around 50% deadlier at range, factoring extra ap in, got noticeably tougher, got easy access to -1 to hit and much easier, albeit 1-use 5++ and got a price drop. And even before all that, skrapjets were a unit rating from decent to good depending on the list. Now they're very good at least. They start to be broken the moment you get that +1 to hit buff from freebootas.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/05 21:52:14


Post by: SemperMortis


 koooaei wrote:
Skrapjets got extra rokkit shots, extra app on all weapons for 2 turns, which is the most serious buff, got ramshackle AND got 20 pt cheaper.
If you want to count stuff, they got around 50% deadlier at range, factoring extra ap in, got noticeably tougher, got easy access to -1 to hit and much easier, albeit 1-use 5++ and got a price drop. And even before all that, skrapjets were a unit rating from decent to good depending on the list. Now they're very good at least. They start to be broken the moment you get that +1 to hit buff from freebootas.


Most of the stuff you mention is extra's not the model itself. The extra AP is only during a speedwaaagh, so requires a warboss, the -1 to hit requires another Speed Freak unit and 2CP, the 5++ requires a Big Mek with 30pt upgrade KFF and 2CP and afterwards its useless.

When you measure a unit like this you can make almost anything sound amazing when you don't factor in the other costs associated with these buffs. Don't get me wrong, I think the scrapjet is amazing (I own 3) its literally my favorite of the buggies because of its looks...honestly the rest look like trash to me But yeah, it got an extra D3 rokkitz, more big shoota shots at half range and it did get the new Ramshackle rule which is nice.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/05 23:28:56


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/05 23:34:33


Post by: SemperMortis


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


A Horde faction that accomplishes tasks with quantity rather than quality. The problem as mentioned before is that GW doesn't understand how to design this correctly, hence we have Ork boyz sitting at 9ppm with less durability than they had at 8ppm, even though they gained T5.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/05 23:58:13


Post by: H.B.M.C.


What makes them less durable?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 01:54:32


Post by: Galas


The nerfs to KKF and morale.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 06:47:18


Post by: Jidmah


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


A combined arms force just like space marines. Or to be more precise, a less melee focused combined arms force than space marines.

If in doubt, calculate the percentage of dedicated melee units vs dedicated shooting units in each codex. Do it again, ignoring all characters. Even beast snaggas adding five dedicated melee units did not vastly do anything about the heavily tilting towards shooting.

Melee has just been supporting tool for their shooting since at least fourth edition. The heavily lifting across the competitive builds of previous editions has been done by lootas, koptas, kanz, old buggies, dakkajets, big guns, mek guns and tank bustas, and it looks like the new buggies will be joining that club now.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 07:02:11


Post by: Umbros


A horde army should be vulnerable to morale - they shouldn't have their cake and eat it. Same reason they shouldn't have an invulnerable.

Points can change (and we will see how they come out in the wash) but the design around the boyz unit seems spot on to me. They feel tough to kill.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 07:14:50


Post by: Jidmah


Umbros wrote:
They feel tough to kill.


What makes you come to that conclusion?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 08:32:06


Post by: koooaei


SemperMortis wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


A Horde faction that accomplishes tasks with quantity rather than quality. The problem as mentioned before is that GW doesn't understand how to design this correctly, hence we have Ork boyz sitting at 9ppm with less durability than they had at 8ppm, even though they gained T5.


Ad mech are also pretty mediocre without buffs. And de are very bad without raiders. Dark angels can't run termies effectively without a flag and an apothecary. Are you in an environment where buffs are banned? Than what's the point of what you're trying to say?

Orks are top tier now and you proceed to whine about something as a habbit.



Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 08:51:47


Post by: Blackie


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


They've never been a melee focussed army. If you look at all their codex you'll notice way more shooting oriented units than choppy ones. And some of the choppy ones are actually 50/50 choppy/shooting at least, like all the walkers.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 08:54:54


Post by: Tyel


SemperMortis wrote:
When you measure a unit like this you can make almost anything sound amazing when you don't factor in the other costs associated with these buffs.


Not really sure I'd agree on this - because stacking buffs is the aim of the game, and unless there's a clear opportunity cost its not unreasonable to assume players will do so. If you take a load of shooty vehicles, its not really a cost to assume you'll bring a Trikeboss and Speedwaaagh. If the Trikeboss was massively inferior to another option (say a Squigosaur boss) you could say this represents a cost - but I'm not entirely convinced that's the case and the upside of Speedwaaagh is so obvious it would pay for itself.

I think you'd have a case if people ran around saying "this part of my army will be Freebooterz and benefit from Speedwaaagh and this part will be Goth and benefit from regular Waaagh". Because this is impossible/unrealistic. (Sure chuck in Ghaz but at 300 points you are down a unit or two versus a regular boss - and the way Freebooterz works its obviously going to have diminished benefit if you are only splashing it with one detachment.)

But its not really unrealistic to say your whole army leans heavily one way or the other and so these buffs naturally follow - because I expect that's how Ork lists will be built.

To look at it another way - why are Kanz "hot garbage"? I mean on their unit stats alone they are probably about right at 40 points. You get a bit of shooting, 3/4/5 (with 3 left in a unit and Waaagh) WS 4+ S8 AP-3 3 damage attacks, and 5 T5 3+ wounds, with Ramshackle protecting you from sub S8 multi-damage attacks. You could maybe push this down to 35 points, but I don't think in the context of 40k this is all that bad. Morale is clearly an issue if you were to take big units - but if you stick with 3 its not apocalyptic. There are some ways to help their leadership, but that would I think count as unrealistic resource expenditure.

The problem however is that they are slow at M6" and there isn't much you can do about it. They are not core so don't get to advance and charge on that first turn of a Waaagh - or benefit from other possible synergies. I guess there is ramming speed - but 2CP seems prohibitive to help out a relatively modest fraction of your army. You can't use it on say 3 units of Kanz.

So in game, its hard to see what you can do with Kanz beyond plonking them on the table, have them waddle towards your opponent, and hopefully charge something turns 2 or 3, before they are destroyed. At 120 points they don't need to do very much to make their points back - and if they die its no great loss - but its hard to see how they let you take the initiative. I therefore wouldn't expect to see them in a competitive list because they aren't obviously serving to be greater than the sum of their parts. They are hot garbage precisely because you can't boost them up the power curve. They are however pointed about right for a casual game where players tend to just throw their armies into each other and see what happens.

Tricked out Scrapjet spam however seems way ahead of the curve.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 11:32:02


Post by: the_scotsman


Umbros wrote:
A horde army should be vulnerable to morale - they shouldn't have their cake and eat it. Same reason they shouldn't have an invulnerable.

Points can change (and we will see how they come out in the wash) but the design around the boyz unit seems spot on to me. They feel tough to kill.


Have you played a game against them?

Because my experience so far has been: My opponent makes a remark the first couple times they have to wound on 5s with their boltguns, and then every wound they get through removes a model, then the morale phase rolls around and the same nubmer of models they killed run away from morale.

and from that point on they're not worried about how durable ork boyz are.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 12:16:48


Post by: Jidmah


Yep, that matches my experience as well. Morale isn't crippling because you simply don't run mobs of 30 anymore, but the extra morale losses feel like they even out the wounds not taken from the extra toughness.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 12:47:21


Post by: SemperMortis


Umbros wrote:
A horde army should be vulnerable to morale - they shouldn't have their cake and eat it. Same reason they shouldn't have an invulnerable.

Points can change (and we will see how they come out in the wash) but the design around the boyz unit seems spot on to me. They feel tough to kill.


Well, and that is the problem, to you and many others "They feel tough to kill" but in reality, they aren't. Games are coming in now which are showing this trend to be true. Against a competent opponent, they will whittle down several mobs instead of outright killing 1 because the threats have so drastically changed with this new codex.

In 8th, if you didn't finish off every last boy in a mob they could use auto-pass morale and than greentide to bring back the entire mob. They benefited from KFF and morale bubbles.

In 9th Codex, you kill 6 boyz in each mob to almost guarantee failure (only insane bravery helps), in a mob of 30 you than lose 1 to morale and than 4 more to attrition. Can no longer green tide, can no longer benefit from a 5++ KFF, can no longer benefit from morale buffs. And they got a points bump.

So yes, they are significantly less durable now.

Honestly, the only way I could see Boyz going back to Horde is either fixing the morale issue OR dropping their points back to 7ppm or even back to 6. If neither is addressed than Horde style orkz in big mobz is effectively over. At most you will see MSU, and I wouldn't go bigger than minimum size.

 koooaei wrote:


Ad mech are also pretty mediocre without buffs. And de are very bad without raiders. Dark angels can't run termies effectively without a flag and an apothecary. Are you in an environment where buffs are banned? Than what's the point of what you're trying to say?

Orks are top tier now and you proceed to whine about something as a habbit.


I love this statement. Besides your random insult you threw in there, we are currently operating under the assumption stage. Neither of us has hard data to prove one way or the other and yet you feel its ok to throw out insults to defend your position. I'm not saying the Ork codex is the worst ever made or other nonsensical statements, but when compared honestly with other 9th edition codexs its absolutely on the lower end of the spectrum. And I have seen several ork tournament players agree with this. We don't have any broken combo's like Drukhari and Ad-Mech have, we don't have ridiculous durability like DA and DG got, we don't have a ridiculous level of stacking buffs like other factions (Ad-Mech) have access to. What we do have is a plethora of High toughness models which put out an ok amount of firepower and are good in CC. We aren't the best in either ranged nor CC but we can hold our own. The old adage "Shoot the choppy and Chop the shooty" very much applies. But the other old adage for orkz "Boyz before Toyz" is absolutely not true this edition. In specific regards to Boyz and your reply, I'll gladly eat my words if you can take an old green tide list of 180+ boyz and do well at tournaments. I don't think we will see that after the initial release is over and players have a month or two to learn how to destroy orkz.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 14:15:29


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Blackie wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


They've never been a melee focussed army. If you look at all their codex you'll notice way more shooting oriented units than choppy ones. And some of the choppy ones are actually 50/50 choppy/shooting at least, like all the walkers.

Aren't the shooty units better in melee than shooting though? Don't they also have relatively short ranged weapons?
We're not talking about Tau here.
I think the description of them being a combined arms faction where shooting and melee complement each other seems fair.
I'd argue though that shooting is meant to help melee because the superior melee stats should result in some more kills.
Orks really should have a pinning mechanic. That's what DDD should have been, a rule that debuffs enemy units because of the amount of suppressing fire they receive.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
Yep, that matches my experience as well. Morale isn't crippling because you simply don't run mobs of 30 anymore, but the extra morale losses feel like they even out the wounds not taken from the extra toughness.

Yeah, but the fact you shouldn't run mobs of 30 anymore is a problem.
Greentide was viable and fluffy, now it isn't viable. That's not a good thing.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 15:00:06


Post by: Jidmah


Greentide is a horrible experience for both the player and the opponent and the archetype has always live at the cost of any other archetype. It needed to die in order to make room for more fun lists.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 16:51:18


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Jidmah wrote:
Greentide is a horrible experience for both the player and the opponent and the archetype has always live at the cost of any other archetype. It needed to die in order to make room for more fun lists.

It was still a viable and fluffy way to run orks up until 8th ed, where it really began to make turns drag on from stratagems, Advance and way, way more dice rolling than was probably needed. It took a problem that 8th ed had (long turn times. I did not have a 2k game run for 3+ hours in previous editions until 8th ed. And this was with Necrons) and exacerbated it.
I'm not saying you're wrong, under the IGOUGO system and the 8th ed Ork rules Greentide was a miserable experience. In earlier editions though it was fine and was an iconic way to run orks, and I find seeing it get phased out (albeit for a good reason) to be a pity and as such not a good thing.
I'd rather that it remained viable, but players themselves choose not to run it out of convenience than GW twisting the rules to punish greentide through Mob Rule nerfs and higher points per model.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 18:14:37


Post by: koooaei


SemperMortis wrote:
Umbros wrote:
A horde army should be vulnerable to morale - they shouldn't have their cake and eat it. Same reason they shouldn't have an invulnerable.

Points can change (and we will see how they come out in the wash) but the design around the boyz unit seems spot on to me. They feel tough to kill.


Well, and that is the problem, to you and many others "They feel tough to kill" but in reality, they aren't. Games are coming in now which are showing this trend to be true. Against a competent opponent, they will whittle down several mobs instead of outright killing 1 because the threats have so drastically changed with this new codex.

In 8th, if you didn't finish off every last boy in a mob they could use auto-pass morale and than greentide to bring back the entire mob. They benefited from KFF and morale bubbles.

In 9th Codex, you kill 6 boyz in each mob to almost guarantee failure (only insane bravery helps), in a mob of 30 you than lose 1 to morale and than 4 more to attrition. Can no longer green tide, can no longer benefit from a 5++ KFF, can no longer benefit from morale buffs. And they got a points bump.

So yes, they are significantly less durable now.

Honestly, the only way I could see Boyz going back to Horde is either fixing the morale issue OR dropping their points back to 7ppm or even back to 6. If neither is addressed than Horde style orkz in big mobz is effectively over. At most you will see MSU, and I wouldn't go bigger than minimum size.

 koooaei wrote:


Ad mech are also pretty mediocre without buffs. And de are very bad without raiders. Dark angels can't run termies effectively without a flag and an apothecary. Are you in an environment where buffs are banned? Than what's the point of what you're trying to say?

Orks are top tier now and you proceed to whine about something as a habbit.


I love this statement. Besides your random insult you threw in there, we are currently operating under the assumption stage. Neither of us has hard data to prove one way or the other and yet you feel its ok to throw out insults to defend your position. I'm not saying the Ork codex is the worst ever made or other nonsensical statements, but when compared honestly with other 9th edition codexs its absolutely on the lower end of the spectrum. And I have seen several ork tournament players agree with this. We don't have any broken combo's like Drukhari and Ad-Mech have, we don't have ridiculous durability like DA and DG got, we don't have a ridiculous level of stacking buffs like other factions (Ad-Mech) have access to. What we do have is a plethora of High toughness models which put out an ok amount of firepower and are good in CC. We aren't the best in either ranged nor CC but we can hold our own. The old adage "Shoot the choppy and Chop the shooty" very much applies. But the other old adage for orkz "Boyz before Toyz" is absolutely not true this edition. In specific regards to Boyz and your reply, I'll gladly eat my words if you can take an old green tide list of 180+ boyz and do well at tournaments. I don't think we will see that after the initial release is over and players have a month or two to learn how to destroy orkz.


That's more of an observation than an insult.

Back on topic, foot hordes are not competititive. Mech and squig spam are. It's true there are no tourney results but our rather competitive group has run a number of tests vs the most cutthroat lists that dominate competitive meta. Tests show orks are on par. The best units are: skrapjets, blastajets, killrigs. Bikers,squigbuggies and dakkajets are good at their specific role. Kommandoez and stormboyz are good at missions. Grots are overpriced but you need a troop slot and they help to screen your buggies first turn.

The results are not exclusive for our group. Basically every competitirve community that runs tourneys and has all ready tested orks got comparable results. Best units are always these, however, some say trukknobz are good. Honestly, they're ok but I'm not sure if good or not ATM



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's make it more interesting. Why don't we hold a bet. If orks get in at least 1/2 of the tops in metawatch (currrently there are 0) after the official release, you send me a blastajet. If not, I send you something of comparable price that you want.

This way we can end this arguement, that's obviously not leading anywhere. Didn't mean to insult, just talking straight.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 19:05:40


Post by: Galas


The problem with the idea of orks being crap but cheap and play like that IS that models cost the fething same.

If SM dreadnoughts are 120ppm and Ork deffdreads are 60ppm and are equivalent in 1:2 ratio they would still cost dpuble the money.

Thats ends Up with ork stuff being just sliglty cheaper point wise and normally much worse in rules with some exceptions but ork stuff being just as good feels wrong for most people outside some stuff (meganobles should be some of the top meele units on the Game with drawbacks like morale or speed. In reality they are just crappy terminstors)


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 19:09:31


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Galas wrote:
The problem with the idea of orks being crap but cheap and play like that IS that models cost the fething same.

If SM dreadnoughts are 120ppm and Ork deffdreads are 60ppm and are equivalent in 1:2 ratio they would still cost dpuble the money.

Thats ends Up with ork stuff being just sliglty cheaper point wise and normally much worse in rules with some exceptions but ork stuff being just as good feels wrong for most people outside some stuff (meganobles should be some of the top meele units on the Game with drawbacks like morale or speed. In reality they are just crappy terminstors)


Yep, the Nids conundrum. Definitely frustrating.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 19:25:07


Post by: epronovost


 Blackie wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


They've never been a melee focussed army. If you look at all their codex you'll notice way more shooting oriented units than choppy ones. And some of the choppy ones are actually 50/50 choppy/shooting at least, like all the walkers.


What leads to that misconception that orks are a very melee focus army is the fact that our base troop and orks most emblematic unit, the boyz, are melee focus or, in the case of shoota boyz, a versatile bland of melee and shooting (well that's if they finally got slightly better guns or BS 4+). Ork troops do perform best in close combat, but in reality they are basically either a distraction, objective holders or the mop up crew. Orks in general, operated most often as some sort of WWI army with lots artillery shooting and preparation and then a big charge to wash up the leftovers and claim the objective. Right now, I believe we will be entering the era of "Mad Max Orks" (which is frankly a rather cool spin) with a horde of fairly well armed and varied light vehicles and small trukk mounted troops buzzing around the battlefield, mostly doing its work at range and bullying weakened and crippled units of objectives with melee units, but very vulnerable to counter fire.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 20:43:53


Post by: SemperMortis


 koooaei wrote:

Let's make it more interesting. Why don't we hold a bet. If orks get in at least 1/2 of the tops in metawatch (currrently there are 0) after the official release, you send me a blastajet. If not, I send you something of comparable price that you want.

This way we can end this arguement, that's obviously not leading anywhere. Didn't mean to insult, just talking straight.


Metawatch as in FLG? Hard pass, those idiots rated so many things incorrectly that they are laughable. Pretty sure they employ Reece for instance, and his "The stompa will be great" argument is still hilarious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are not a melee focused army.
What are they, then?


They've never been a melee focussed army. If you look at all their codex you'll notice way more shooting oriented units than choppy ones. And some of the choppy ones are actually 50/50 choppy/shooting at least, like all the walkers.


What leads to that misconception that orks are a very melee focus army is the fact that our base troop and orks most emblematic unit, the boyz, are melee focus or, in the case of shoota boyz, a versatile bland of melee and shooting (well that's if they finally got slightly better guns or BS 4+). Ork troops do perform best in close combat, but in reality they are basically either a distraction, objective holders or the mop up crew. Orks in general, operated most often as some sort of WWI army with lots artillery shooting and preparation and then a big charge to wash up the leftovers and claim the objective. Right now, I believe we will be entering the era of "Mad Max Orks" (which is frankly a rather cool spin) with a horde of fairly well armed and varied light vehicles and small trukk mounted troops buzzing around the battlefield, mostly doing its work at range and bullying weakened and crippled units of objectives with melee units, but very vulnerable to counter fire.

Fairly good job describing orkz honestly. The one thing I really want to point out though is that those shootaboyz are crap. The most use they've had in recent years was as 10 models slapped onto a 30 mob to 1: eat wounds and 2: occasionally be used to lightly harass a target the unit isn't going to charge. Dakka 3(2) is absolutely stupid on a 18' range weapon. If it was 24 maybe, but 18? Hard pass. In reality a shoota boy should have been upgraded to BS4 and kept 3(2) or failing that, 4(3).

Put it this way. At ranged combat with 4 shots each a mob of 30 shoota boys averages 40 hits, 20 wounds and against a Marine unit that's 6.6 wounds for 3 dead Marines.

270pts kills 60pts. Not even a 1/4rd return on value.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 22:37:13


Post by: epronovost


SemperMortis wrote:

Fairly good job describing orkz honestly. The one thing I really want to point out though is that those shootaboyz are crap. The most use they've had in recent years was as 10 models slapped onto a 30 mob to 1: eat wounds and 2: occasionally be used to lightly harass a target the unit isn't going to charge. Dakka 3(2) is absolutely stupid on a 18' range weapon. If it was 24 maybe, but 18? Hard pass. In reality a shoota boy should have been upgraded to BS4 and kept 3(2) or failing that, 4(3).

Put it this way. At ranged combat with 4 shots each a mob of 30 shoota boys averages 40 hits, 20 wounds and against a Marine unit that's 6.6 wounds for 3 dead Marines.

270pts kills 60pts. Not even a 1/4rd return on value.


Right now, I have to agree that shoota boyz are very bad with Bad Moon making them just bad (or at best very niche). What I will disagree with though is how you evaluate the worth of a unit as its pure killing output. A unit isn't good only because it can kill its worth in point, especially not in an objective based game. It's worth something if it can accomplish an objective and can trade fairly well against its mirror in the opposite army. The "kill your point to gain your worth" system, while not completely wrongheaded, is how you evaluate something like a glass hammer. It's how I would evaluate the strength of a Dark Eldar Succubus or even little Wytches for example and right now they are basically to glass hammer what orgasm is to sex, but that's not how I would evaluate the overwhelming majority of troop choice units.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 23:22:51


Post by: Karol


Wych or succubi are glass only if someone runs them on foot. And both those units trade up.

Boys don't trade up.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/06 23:26:52


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


SemperMortis wrote:


Put it this way. At ranged combat with 4 shots each a mob of 30 shoota boys averages 40 hits, 20 wounds and against a Marine unit that's 6.6 wounds for 3 dead Marines.

270pts kills 60pts. Not even a 1/4rd return on value.

Why aren't you charging after shooting? If you're close enough to use the better Dakka profile you're probably close enough to try to attempt a charge.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 01:19:26


Post by: epronovost


Karol wrote:
Wych or succubi are glass only if someone runs them on foot. And both those units trade up.

Boys don't trade up.


It depends what they are fighting and almost all of the time you are correct, because Wytch are glass canons while boyz are not supposed to be. You can sit some boyz on an objective and not feel too bad about it. If you do the same with Wytches you are a complete idiot or desperate since they are almost twice more fragile than the already fragile boyz. The irony, is that slugga boyz don't compare all that unfavorably to Wytches in close combat though the lack of "fight first" stratagem, special rule, psychic power or mechanic makes them less desirable and this has been a long standing problem for orks (and one of the reason they can't hold a candle to true melee specialists). Back in earlier edition, low initiative made orks lose a bit of punch in close combat.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 03:01:24


Post by: Insectum7


What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 04:14:37


Post by: koooaei


SemperMortis wrote:
 koooaei wrote:

Let's make it more interesting. Why don't we hold a bet. If orks get in at least 1/2 of the tops in metawatch (currrently there are 0) after the official release, you send me a blastajet. If not, I send you something of comparable price that you want.

This way we can end this arguement, that's obviously not leading anywhere. Didn't mean to insult, just talking straight.


Metawatch as in FLG? Hard pass, those idiots rated so many things incorrectly that they are laughable. Pretty sure they employ Reece for instance, and his "The stompa will be great" argument is still hilarious.



They're just posting the results of large official tourneys. Their competence is absolutely irrelevant. I think that if you're sure in your words and orks are indeed the worst of the codexes released in 9 in power level, you should accept the bet.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 06:37:45


Post by: Jidmah


 Insectum7 wrote:
What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.


Sorry, but that's one of the worst metrics to determine whether someone is good at combat. By that metric both marines and eldar are vastly better melee armies and should get their shooting taken away to compensate.

Whether an army or a unit is good at something is not determined by their ability to hit.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 09:47:49


Post by: Karol


If it can't hit anything, then it can't be good at shoting?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 09:53:36


Post by: a_typical_hero


A unit who hits on 2+ with a single shot is worse at shooting than one who hits on 5+ but gets 20 shots.

Looking at the BS and WS alone to determine where the unit excells in is too simple.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 09:54:31


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Jidmah wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.


Sorry, but that's one of the worst metrics to determine whether someone is good at combat. By that metric both marines and eldar are vastly better melee armies and should get their shooting taken away to compensate.

Whether an army or a unit is good at something is not determined by their ability to hit.

Marines and Eldar get most of their kills from shooting though, don't they?
What is more lethal, Ork shooting or Marine shooting?
What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a_typical_hero wrote:
A unit who hits on 2+ with a single shot is worse at shooting than one who hits on 5+ but gets 20 shots.

Looking at the BS and WS alone to determine where the unit excells in is too simple.

True, but Ork weapons aren't even that strong or have that much range. By the time you're in effective range with Orks you might as well charge in.
Compare this to a faction like Tau where they're in effective range at the start of the game and can pack a punch.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 09:58:40


Post by: a_typical_hero


You guys need to stop making generalisations.

Are you more scared to get charged by a squad of Sanguinary Guard, or by a squad of Shoota boyz?

Would you rather get hit by a Thunderfire cannon, or a squad of Lootaz?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 10:55:36


Post by: Blackie


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?


By marines, hands down .


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 11:18:34


Post by: Karol


a_typical_hero wrote:
You guys need to stop making generalisations.

Are you more scared to get charged by a squad of Sanguinary Guard, or by a squad of Shoota boyz?

Would you rather get hit by a Thunderfire cannon, or a squad of Lootaz?


But are those shota boys even considered the core of an ork army, or are they more like poxwalkers in DG. With the real core of the lists being the elite units. Because 15 kommandos charing at something in cover do well enough. Same way while boys shoting is rather bad, the real ork shoting never really came from them. It was stuff like the artilery, and now is probably the flyers. Marines charging have more impact, because if you take blade guard of assault intercessors they are the core of your list. And they often have to do everything in all match ups. For orks, something like shoota boys, feels more like, 10 dudes hugging an objective and a tax to take the good stuff.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 11:50:12


Post by: a_typical_hero


Wether something is core or not is irrelevant.
Your point was that a unit with bad BS is bad at shooting.

Only looking at that single value ignores everything else that will impact the efficiency.

Point costs, auras, stratagems, weapon strength, AP, damage, number of shots availability, faction traits, faction subtraits and whatever else I'm missing right now.

The other point (not from you) is packing the whole faction together and is asking the question who got the scarier shooting/melee.

As proven by simple examples, you can't generalize, because not every unit of that faction is better at one thing than the other faction.

And then this is not taking into account that subfactions can shift what units are good for a given faction.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 11:51:41


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Blackie wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?


By marines, hands down .

Really? How many attacks do they have on the charge these days?
Wait, so if Orks aren't that dangerous in melee anymore and they aren't even that good at shooting in comparison to other factions, what are they good at?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 12:10:06


Post by: Blackie


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?


By marines, hands down .

Really? How many attacks do they have on the charge these days?


Blood claws have 4 attacks on the charge, all with AP-1 and even AP-2 since turn 3. Otherwise they just have 3, unless already locked in combat. Always hitting on 2s unless locked in combat from a previous turn. Grey hunters are basically the same, just with 3 attacks everytime unless already locked in combat, in that case they'll have 2, like blood claws. Most of the times blood claws have 4A hitting on 2s with AP-2, grey hunters 3A hitting on 2s with AP-2. Assault intercessors should have similar stats, but I don't play primaris.

Boyz have 3 attacks each at AP-1, hitting on 3s. 4 attacks in two turns if a waaagh is called. I wrote if because I'm typically calling the speedwaaagh instead. Shoota boyz have 2 attacks with no AP, 3 for two turns if a waaagh is called.

Let's not even start comparing dedicated melee units from both armies.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 12:16:33


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Blackie wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?


By marines, hands down .

Really? How many attacks do they have on the charge these days?


Blood claws have 4 attacks on the charge, all with AP-1 and even AP-2 since turn 3. Otherwise they just have 3, unless already locked in combat. Always hitting on 2s unless locked in combat from a previous turn. Grey hunters are basically the same, just with 3 attacks everytime unless already locked in combat, in that case they'll have 2, like blood claws. Most of the times blood claws have 4A hitting on 2s with AP-2, grey hunters 3A hitting on 2s with AP-2. Assault intercessors should have similar stats, but I don't play primaris.

Boyz have 3 attacks each at AP-1, hitting on 3s. 4 attacks in two turns if a waaagh is called. I wrote if because I'm typically calling the speedwaaagh instead. Shoota boyz have 2 attacks with no AP, 3 for two turns if a waaagh is called.

Let's not even start comparing dedicated melee units from both armies.

Perhaps I should have specified which marines I'm referring to, as Space Wolves are one of the more melee orientated chapters. But yeah that is pretty damning.
Wow poor Orks, not even impressive in melee anymore. I remember back in 4th ed Orks being pretty nasty on the charge, generating more attacks than pretty much any other faction. The marine favoritism is real I guess.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 12:23:57


Post by: Blackie


Everyone has assault intercessors though. They have 3A base with AP-1 or AP-2 since turn 3. And a 4th attack almost granted thanks to Shock Assault unless already locked in combat. Hitting on 3s like orks but still much better than them, having more attacks and better AP.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 12:29:44


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Blackie wrote:
Everyone has assault intercessors though. They have 3A base with AP-1 or AP-2 since turn 3. And a 4th attack almost granted thanks to Shock Assault unless already locked in combat. Hitting on 3s like orks but still much better than them, having more attacks and better AP.

Ok, but what would the Ork equivalent be? A nob squad?
If they surpass even a nob squad or the new snagga boyz then Orks got a raw deal.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 12:35:50


Post by: SemperMortis


epronovost wrote:


Right now, I have to agree that shoota boyz are very bad with Bad Moon making them just bad (or at best very niche). What I will disagree with though is how you evaluate the worth of a unit as its pure killing output. A unit isn't good only because it can kill its worth in point, especially not in an objective based game. It's worth something if it can accomplish an objective and can trade fairly well against its mirror in the opposite army. The "kill your point to gain your worth" system, while not completely wrongheaded, is how you evaluate something like a glass hammer. It's how I would evaluate the strength of a Dark Eldar Succubus or even little Wytches for example and right now they are basically to glass hammer what orgasm is to sex, but that's not how I would evaluate the overwhelming majority of troop choice units.


You are correct in your evaluation of a unit. The problem being that "objective holding" and other scoring is done easily across all troops choices. 5 Tac Marines are faster and more durable vs small arms fire and can do the exact same job as the shoota boyz in terms of scoring. Those Marines though are T4 3+ save with 2 wounds. To shift 5 Marines off an objective in the shooting phase it takes 90 bolter shots. To shift 10 Shootaboyz off an objective it takes 54 bolter shots. So as far as scoring goes, those shoota boyz are slower and less durable, and that is before you factor in morale.

Shoota boyz were intended to be an Ok ish melee unit that softens up its target with shooting before they crash into melee. Now? They can't advance and shoot, and there dmg output has not changed since like 3rd edition while durability has gone up dramatically (Orkz T5, Marines 2Wounds etc).

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Why aren't you charging after shooting? If you're close enough to use the better Dakka profile you're probably close enough to try to attempt a charge.


Couple reasons come to mind. First off, if I am close enough to assault a target...I likely don't want to shoot it since they might pull models from the front and increase charge range. Second, if i am going to take a unit whose purpose is to get stuck in....why wouldn't I take Choppa boyz? Dakka range shoota boys (10 of them) get 30 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds and 1.6 dmg vs T4 3+, in CC they are 20 attacks, 13.3 hits 6.6 wounds and 2.2dmg. Total of 3.8dmg for 90pts The choppa boyz are 10 shots at 12' range for 3.3 hits 1.67 wounds and 0.5dmg while in CC its 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg total of 5.5dmg.

 Insectum7 wrote:
What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.


They don't have good melee stats though. Intercessors have the same stats and are considerably better at shooting. And their shooting is ranged 30 compared to the shoota boyz 18, (ironically same number of shots at those ranges as well).

 koooaei wrote:


They're just posting the results of large official tourneys. Their competence is absolutely irrelevant. I think that if you're sure in your words and orks are indeed the worst of the codexes released in 9 in power level, you should accept the bet.
No, they are analyzing the data and coming up with a list based upon their own interpretation of that data. And almost every single time a new codex comes out they receive a bump up in tier list until the meta adjusts. And on top of all of that, you are asking me to take part in a bet based upon a metric I have no inherent trust in and whose previous analysis was that the Stompa would be amazing in 8th edition. So yeah, that's not going to happen. And finally, my opinion is that orkz are NOT going to be top tier but that we will have a build that can compete, just not as well as we currently are, in other words this codex made the competitive level of orkz LOWER not higher.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Marines and Eldar get most of their kills from shooting though, don't they?
What is more lethal, Ork shooting or Marine shooting?
What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?


What is more lethal ork shooting or Marine shooting? Well, in 8th and 9th up until now Orkz would routinely take full batteries of mek gunz, competitive lists took 18 of them. Orkz before they were nerfed into the ground would take 25 Lootas and SAG Big Mekz. So I would say Ork shooting. Orkz even had not 1 but 2 stratagems to shoot twice.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
True, but Ork weapons aren't even that strong or have that much range. By the time you're in effective range with Orks you might as well charge in.
Compare this to a faction like Tau where they're in effective range at the start of the game and can pack a punch.


Again, not true, just most of our ranged weapons got beaten to death with nerf hammers. Shokk Attack gun is ranged 60, Smasha guns are 48, Kannon wagonz are 60, lootas are 48,
We had plenty of relatively competitive shooting units until they were tragically murdered by GW

Ork shooting was supposed to be inaccurate but devastating.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Everyone has assault intercessors though. They have 3A base with AP-1 or AP-2 since turn 3. And a 4th attack almost granted thanks to Shock Assault unless already locked in combat. Hitting on 3s like orks but still much better than them, having more attacks and better AP.

Ok, but what would the Ork equivalent be? A nob squad?
If they surpass even a nob squad or the new snagga boyz then Orks got a raw deal.


Nobz are 1ppm cheaper, have S5 and now T5 and have 3 attacks base, Ap-1 and a 4th attack from their CC weapon, hitting on 3s. Difference is the Marine is a 3+ and has a pistol that is dangerous as well. ....Ranged 18' pistol....but Shootas can't get ranged 24.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 12:45:13


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


SemperMortis wrote:


Again, not true, just most of our ranged weapons got beaten to death with nerf hammers. Shokk Attack gun is ranged 60, Smasha guns are 48, Kannon wagonz are 60, lootas are 48,
We had plenty of relatively competitive shooting units until they were tragically murdered by GW


Fair enough. I never used SAG or the various artillery pieces so I wasn't sure about their efficacy.

SemperMortis wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Everyone has assault intercessors though. They have 3A base with AP-1 or AP-2 since turn 3. And a 4th attack almost granted thanks to Shock Assault unless already locked in combat. Hitting on 3s like orks but still much better than them, having more attacks and better AP.

Ok, but what would the Ork equivalent be? A nob squad?
If they surpass even a nob squad or the new snagga boyz then Orks got a raw deal.


Nobz are 1ppm cheaper, have S5 and now T5 and have 3 attacks base, Ap-1 and a 4th attack from their CC weapon, hitting on 3s. Difference is the Marine is a 3+ and has a pistol that is dangerous as well. ....Ranged 18' pistol....but Shootas can't get ranged 24.


Yeah, that does sound like a raw deal. It's like Orktober all over again.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 12:47:16


Post by: Tyel


 Blackie wrote:
Everyone has assault intercessors though. They have 3A base with AP-1 or AP-2 since turn 3. And a 4th attack almost granted thanks to Shock Assault unless already locked in combat. Hitting on 3s like orks but still much better than them, having more attacks and better AP.


But they cost 19 points to the Boyz's 9.

90 points for 41 (with Waaagh) S4 AP-1 attacks isn't bad. Even better if Goths for the extra hits on 6s and +1 S on the charge.

The basic problem compared with say Wyches.
1.) Raiders are the best transport in the game - and 4-5 of them give any DE list some handy anti-tank. Trukks are... so-so as transports and bring essentially nothing else. (I mean if they do a new model, give it at least a twin big shoota. Preferably 2.)
2.) Wyches have a reasonably big bag of tricks - Boyz don't really get the same.
3.) Wyches are obviously more vulnerable with T3 if caught flat-footed to shooting - but popping 10 T5 6+ save models is not difficult for many armies. *In Combat* Wyches get their 4++ - which doesn't help hugely against lots of low S low AP attacks - but can skew well against the "S5 AP-3 2 damage" (anti-MEQ basically) damage profile attacks you often see on combat units. Orks are sort of inefficient to hit with those attacks - but they will fallover all the same (and then morale kicks in etc).


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 12:55:46


Post by: Blackie


Tyel wrote:


But they cost 19 points to the Boyz's 9.



True, but they're also much more resilient and models that can swing in combat are capped anyway. So in practise my 10 Blood Claws do more damage than my 30 boyz on the charge. In a 10 vs 10 scenario, marines are definitely more expensive, twice as much, but they're likely to get in combat with less casualties and their shooting also means something: assault marines have native AP and BS3+ even with basic pistols, which now also have an impact in combat. They cost twice the points because they have better armour, they're less vulnerable to morale, have twice the wounds (which is superior than +1T) and they fire better, probably also better M stat if I remember correctly. They outperform boyz in everything, not just melee; that's why they cost much more.

I'm not saying boyz are bad (although I do think they're slightly more than a tax unit), only that marines are scarier in melee.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 14:18:30


Post by: Karol


Possibly GW thinks that boys this edition aren't ment to be run in 30 man squads and trying to get in to firefights or melee.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 14:25:00


Post by: SemperMortis


Karol wrote:
Possibly GW thinks that boys this edition aren't ment to be run in 30 man squads and trying to get in to firefights or melee.


GW has been trying to kill hordes since 9th started bud.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 15:31:56


Post by: Daedalus81


 Blackie wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?


By marines, hands down .

Really? How many attacks do they have on the charge these days?


Blood claws have 4 attacks on the charge, all with AP-1 and even AP-2 since turn 3. Otherwise they just have 3, unless already locked in combat. Always hitting on 2s unless locked in combat from a previous turn. Grey hunters are basically the same, just with 3 attacks everytime unless already locked in combat, in that case they'll have 2, like blood claws. Most of the times blood claws have 4A hitting on 2s with AP-2, grey hunters 3A hitting on 2s with AP-2. Assault intercessors should have similar stats, but I don't play primaris.

Boyz have 3 attacks each at AP-1, hitting on 3s. 4 attacks in two turns if a waaagh is called. I wrote if because I'm typically calling the speedwaaagh instead. Shoota boyz have 2 attacks with no AP, 3 for two turns if a waaagh is called.

Let's not even start comparing dedicated melee units from both armies.



Are we really comparing orks and marines one to one when you get two for each marine at the very least?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 15:54:29


Post by: Blackie


 Daedalus81 wrote:



Are we really comparing orks and marines one to one when you get two for each marine at the very least?


We were talking about who's scarier, marines or boyz in close combat? And since you can't have more than 10 guys fighting it doesn't matter who's cheaper. 10 marines deal more damage than 20+ orks, since half of those orks won't have the chance to do anything.

Cheaper but also easier to kill, and close to useless outside combat, never forget that. Melee for infantries is a 2nd or 3rd turn thing, units will likely have suffered casualties and marines are more than twice as tough. Boyz can go 2x10 in order to let everyone fight, but how easy is to cripple/delete those units compared to marines?

But that's not the point. The point was about who's scarier in assault. A unit of assault intercessors, or even some firstborn dudes like blood claws or boyz? The answer is definitely marines, hands down!

With melee dedicated units ratio is very close to 1:1, and guess who's scarier? A terminator/BG veteran or a meganob/nob with pk?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 16:00:14


Post by: Daedalus81


24 Old Boyz vs Grey Hunters

96 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 10.6

GH vs Old Boyz

31 * .833 * .5 = 12.9

=====================================

21 New Boyz vs Grey Hunters

63 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 10.5

21 New Boyz w/ Waaagh and Boss vs Grey Hunters

84 * .833 * .5 * .5 = 17.5

GH vs New Boyz

31 * .833 * .333 = 8.6

=====================================

New Boyz can basically wipe out the marines if you manage your field well, which should be doable with an advance and charge plus reroll charge. Old Boyz won't fail morale. New Boyz will lose 1 and then another 1.8 for a total loss of 11.4, which is less than the Old Boyz lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
And since you can't have more than 10 guys fighting it doesn't matter who's cheaper.


You absolutely can have more than 10 in combat. Yes, your positioning and rolls are going to matter on how likely that will be.

But that's not the point. The point was about who's scarier in assault. A unit of assault intercessors, or even some firstborn dudes like blood claws or boyz? The answer is definitely marines, hands down!


They're equally scary.





Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 17:17:21


Post by: Insectum7


 Jidmah wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.


Sorry, but that's one of the worst metrics to determine whether someone is good at combat. By that metric both marines and eldar are vastly better melee armies and should get their shooting taken away to compensate.

Whether an army or a unit is good at something is not determined by their ability to hit.
I don't see how your interpretation of what I said makes any sense. Eldar and Marines have equal WS and BS. Orks have a clear emphasis on melee with their basic stats. And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 18:15:29


Post by: epronovost


Tyel wrote:

1.) Raiders are the best transport in the game - and 4-5 of them give any DE list some handy anti-tank. Trukks are... so-so as transports and bring essentially nothing else. (I mean if they do a new model, give it at least a twin big shoota. Preferably 2.)


Actually, I would say that trukks, now being improved by the new ramshackle rule making them tougher to light anti-tank firepower and relatively cheap and with a more mild degradation chart (Raiders lose ballistic skills which is very bothering to them), are almost great. If they had the option to take a rockit launcha, which are now d3 shots, on the cheap (let say for 5 pts) instead of its big shoota, Trukk spam filled with slugga boyz and others would be an interesting tactic. Trukks even had the option for rokkit laucha during 4th and 5th edition if I remember well alas, no bit no option.

The good thing about current trukk is that a squad of 10 Goff slugga boyz with a nob with a power klaw plus one trukk is cheaper than 10 tactical marines all the while capable of moping the floor with them if they get the charge (which shouldn't be all that hard). While probably not a top competitive tool. This is definitely not a bad setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.


Ironically, Tyranids are also another army many people believe is designed for close combat, but is actually better at shooting especially right now.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 19:39:56


Post by: Insectum7


epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.


Ironically, Tyranids are also another army many people believe is designed for close combat, but is actually better at shooting especially right now.
I'm sorta finding that to be true with my Nids, but I'm also not flush with painted CC optiins so I'm not reall a good judge of that. It is sad to see how rotten Genestealers appear to be at killing Marines though. It ain't right.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 19:40:20


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:

24 Old Boyz vs Grey Hunters
96 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 10.6
GH vs Old Boyz
31 * .833 * .5 = 12.9
=====================================
21 New Boyz vs Grey Hunters
63 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 10.5
21 New Boyz w/ Waaagh and Boss vs Grey Hunters
84 * .833 * .5 * .5 = 17.5
GH vs New Boyz
31 * .833 * .333 = 8.6

=====================================

New Boyz can basically wipe out the marines if you manage your field well, which should be doable with an advance and charge plus reroll charge. Old Boyz won't fail morale. New Boyz will lose 1 and then another 1.8 for a total loss of 11.4, which is less than the Old Boyz lost.

Yep..on planet bowling ball where those 5' movement boyz walked across the board without being gutted. Even with aggressive deployment and an epic advance move, boyz are not a turn 1 threat. Heck, even with Da Jump they aren't a threat anymore thanks to the nerfs to WAAAAGH energy and the nerf to Evil Sunz +1 to charge. So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz. Those boyz are now LD3 and have a 50% chance to lose even more boyz to morale, specifically 1 to failure and 2-3 to attrition.


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:
And since you can't have more than 10 guys fighting it doesn't matter who's cheaper.


You absolutely can have more than 10 in combat. Yes, your positioning and rolls are going to matter on how likely that will be.

But that's not the point. The point was about who's scarier in assault. A unit of assault intercessors, or even some firstborn dudes like blood claws or boyz? The answer is definitely marines, hands down!


They're equally scary.


No, they aren't. As blackie already covered, there are two events that happen before that CC happens. 1: The Orkz are gutted by ranged firepower because even T5 isn't hard to kill when its a 6+ save and 2: Morale will further gut those boyz because LD7 with no inherent mechanic to limit dmg beyond the double attrition modifier. And as previously mentioned, Marine infantry do not suffer from those same inherent problems. 1 of them (durability) is questionable because so many people bring AP weaponry now, but even than its still not that bad. and Morale...Marines don't have morale issues.





Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 20:11:05


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:

Yep..on planet bowling ball where those 5' movement boyz walked across the board without being gutted. Even with aggressive deployment and an epic advance move, boyz are not a turn 1 threat. Heck, even with Da Jump they aren't a threat anymore thanks to the nerfs to WAAAAGH energy and the nerf to Evil Sunz +1 to charge. So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz. Those boyz are now LD3 and have a 50% chance to lose even more boyz to morale, specifically 1 to failure and 2-3 to attrition.


Grey Hunters aren't a turn 1 threat either.

So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz.


3.3 damage or 63 points as opposed to 4.5 * 9 = 40.5 points. Even if they lose 3 to morale they're still on roughly the same points.

This isn't the huge gap you're making it out to be.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/07 20:59:28


Post by: epronovost


 Insectum7 wrote:
epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.


Ironically, Tyranids are also another army many people believe is designed for close combat, but is actually better at shooting especially right now.
I'm sorta finding that to be true with my Nids, but I'm also not flush with painted CC optiins so I'm not reall a good judge of that. It is sad to see how rotten Genestealers appear to be at killing Marines though. It ain't right.


Indeed, Genestealer used to have the close combat profile of HQ characters in the old days of third and fourth edition. They would need, in my opinion, special rending claws that operate like powerswords and maybe an extra attack (with a point bump to make it all appropriate too). While Tyranids have good close combat options, they are often ampered by this idea that they are supposed to be "unskilled" (why the hell does an ork has more skills in close combat than a Haruspex whose sole purpose in existence is devouring stuff is beyond me).


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/08 03:13:48


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

Yep..on planet bowling ball where those 5' movement boyz walked across the board without being gutted. Even with aggressive deployment and an epic advance move, boyz are not a turn 1 threat. Heck, even with Da Jump they aren't a threat anymore thanks to the nerfs to WAAAAGH energy and the nerf to Evil Sunz +1 to charge. So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz. Those boyz are now LD3 and have a 50% chance to lose even more boyz to morale, specifically 1 to failure and 2-3 to attrition.


Grey Hunters aren't a turn 1 threat either.


more so than Choppa boyz, they at least get a 24' range weapon to go along with their close combat abilities.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz.


3.3 damage or 63 points as opposed to 4.5 * 9 = 40.5 points. Even if they lose 3 to morale they're still on roughly the same points.

This isn't the huge gap you're making it out to be.


10 intercessors is 20 shots, 13.3 hits, 6.6 wounds and 3.3 dmg which is 1 dead Marine and 1 wounded Marine. Not 63pts of dmg. 3.3dmg would be 31.35pts or half what you thought it was. And those Orkz are either LD 3 or LD2 which means they most likely fail morale and than its 4.5 +1 + 1/6th so at a minimum you are talking 5.5 and likely going to 7.5 which means its 63-72pts of dead Orkz


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/08 09:32:22


Post by: Jidmah


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?


By marines, hands down .

Really? How many attacks do they have on the charge these days?
Wait, so if Orks aren't that dangerous in melee anymore and they aren't even that good at shooting in comparison to other factions, what are they good at?


Dingdingding, we have a winner. Yeah, that's exactly the problem Semper has been talking about for many, many posts in this thread.

The thing orks are good at is bringing more wounds than anyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.


Sorry, but that's one of the worst metrics to determine whether someone is good at combat. By that metric both marines and eldar are vastly better melee armies and should get their shooting taken away to compensate.

Whether an army or a unit is good at something is not determined by their ability to hit.
I don't see how your interpretation of what I said makes any sense. Eldar and Marines have equal WS and BS. Orks have a clear emphasis on melee with their basic stats. And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.


So, weren't you just saying that WS is the only thing that matters? Now it's also number of attacks? Or let's get wild and we have to look at the whole picture and take all stats into consideration to find out who is good at combat? And let's go a step further and include rules and army synergy. Crazy talk, right?

An no, even in prior editions, marines and eldar always had similar or better melee stats than orks. Today even if you pick a random chapter with no real benefit for melee, a unit of intercessors tends to be just as deadly in combat as an equally costed units of boyz.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/08 11:24:36


Post by: Spoletta


SemperMortis wrote:
Spoiler:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

Yep..on planet bowling ball where those 5' movement boyz walked across the board without being gutted. Even with aggressive deployment and an epic advance move, boyz are not a turn 1 threat. Heck, even with Da Jump they aren't a threat anymore thanks to the nerfs to WAAAAGH energy and the nerf to Evil Sunz +1 to charge. So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz. Those boyz are now LD3 and have a 50% chance to lose even more boyz to morale, specifically 1 to failure and 2-3 to attrition.


Grey Hunters aren't a turn 1 threat either.


more so than Choppa boyz, they at least get a 24' range weapon to go along with their close combat abilities.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz.


3.3 damage or 63 points as opposed to 4.5 * 9 = 40.5 points. Even if they lose 3 to morale they're still on roughly the same points.

This isn't the huge gap you're making it out to be.


10 intercessors is 20 shots, 13.3 hits, 6.6 wounds and 3.3 dmg which is 1 dead Marine and 1 wounded Marine. Not 63pts of dmg. 3.3dmg would be 31.35pts or half what you thought it was. And those Orkz are either LD 3 or LD2 which means they most likely fail morale and than its 4.5 +1 + 1/6th so at a minimum you are talking 5.5 and likely going to 7.5 which means its 63-72pts of dead Orkz


Talk about arguing in bad faith...

Yeah, sure if we point anti light infantry weapons at light infantry it is going to be more efficient than pointing it at heavy infantry. Shocking!

Here, get this math and see how OP boyz are.
An exocrine fire on a unit of intercessors. 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5,33 wounds. 4.44 killed for 88,8 points. 33% chances of losing one more to morale for a total of 95 points.
Same exocrine fires on a unit of 20 boyz. 5.33 killed. 48 points. 66% chances to lose 3 more to morale for a total of 66 points.

95 against 66. And that's assuming the worst possble effects from morale (i.e. only this weapon shooting at them in the whole turn... yeah, sure).

You see? Your intercessors are clearly worse than those boyz and will be terribly crippled before they make contact with the enemy lines, whle the boyz will still be quite strong...

OR

We stop making silly math hammer points which have no actual tie to what really happens on the table, and are just the epitome of armchairing.
As I have just shown, with math hammer you can prove everything and its contrary.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/08 11:37:03


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Jidmah wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?


By marines, hands down .

Really? How many attacks do they have on the charge these days?
Wait, so if Orks aren't that dangerous in melee anymore and they aren't even that good at shooting in comparison to other factions, what are they good at?


Dingdingding, we have a winner. Yeah, that's exactly the problem Semper has been talking about for many, many posts in this thread.

The thing orks are good at is bringing more wounds than anyone else.


Well I suppose I should be disappointed, but there are no games in my area so it doesn't really matter if my Orks get shelved. What a pity though, they were a hell lot of fun in 4th ed when I started them.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/08 11:42:44


Post by: Blackie


Orks are not in bad spot though, they're actually quite good at the moment. Players just need to adapt to the new codex and edition though.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/08 12:19:16


Post by: Jidmah


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well I suppose I should be disappointed, but there are no games in my area so it doesn't really matter if my Orks get shelved. What a pity though, they were a hell lot of fun in 4th ed when I started them.

Ah, no, you got me wrong. Just because orks aren't the best at anything, doesn't automatically mean that they are bad. They are essentially a jack of all trades, with above average shooting, average melee and high model/wound count.

An old mantra almost as old as orks is "chop the shooty and shoot the choppy" - orks cannot meet the power of a specialist at their specialty, but they have tools to exploit their weaknesses. That's why shooting is an absolutely essential and important part of orks and always has been.

Only when balance heavily disfavored this approach orks fell back to their one strength - bringing more wounds than their opponent could possibly kill. Essentially every time the green tide became a popular tournament archetype in the last decade, it meant that the ork codex was having massive problems because its shooting and melee was too weak.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/08 13:31:30


Post by: SemperMortis


Spoletta wrote:

Talk about arguing in bad faith...
Yeah, sure if we point anti light infantry weapons at light infantry it is going to be more efficient than pointing it at heavy infantry. Shocking!
Here, get this math and see how OP boyz are.
An exocrine fire on a unit of intercessors. 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5,33 wounds. 4.44 killed for 88,8 points. 33% chances of losing one more to morale for a total of 95 points.
Same exocrine fires on a unit of 20 boyz. 5.33 killed. 48 points. 66% chances to lose 3 more to morale for a total of 66 points.

95 against 66. And that's assuming the worst possble effects from morale (i.e. only this weapon shooting at them in the whole turn... yeah, sure).

You see? Your intercessors are clearly worse than those boyz and will be terribly crippled before they make contact with the enemy lines, whle the boyz will still be quite strong...

OR

We stop making silly math hammer points which have no actual tie to what really happens on the table, and are just the epitome of armchairing.
As I have just shown, with math hammer you can prove everything and its contrary.


bad faith ...or more accurately described as a common game scenario. And yes, Ork boyz are "light" infantry and Space marines are all now considered "heavy" because of their 2nd wound. And yes, when you target those infantry with a heavy weapon that is almost purpose built to killing Marines, its going to perform less well against other targets. Or do you think S7 -3AP 2Dmg is the ideal weapon to be targeting troops choices? Without a shadow of a doubt the most common weapon on the table is the humble bolter. Most Marines wield it or a variant of it, SOB use them, Imperial Guard use them (not as frequently), Chaos Marines wield them.

And I don't know about you, but when i'm playing against someone, I generally don't put my Expensive artillery into a troops choice, i prefer to use it against vehicles and elite infantry like Terminators and such.

Regardless, the point being made which you seem to have missed is that someone asked "what is scarier to get assaulted by, some orkz or some Marines" and a few people pointed out that Marines are scarier. Daed jumped in well after the fact to try and mathhammer it out to show that in a vacuum if you get all boyz into assault (you never do) they are scarier. I'm pointing out that in no game I have ever played has a unit of boyz ever gotten into assault unmolested unless they were Da Jumped and since that is heavily nerfed now, its not a real tactic, and those same boyz are M5 and are not a turn 1 threat anymore, as in they literally can't hurt the enemy turn 1 at all unless their opponent bum rushed forward to get chopped up. Where as their opposite number is 1 faster and 2 has a weapon capable of at least harassing fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well I suppose I should be disappointed, but there are no games in my area so it doesn't really matter if my Orks get shelved. What a pity though, they were a hell lot of fun in 4th ed when I started them.

Ah, no, you got me wrong. Just because orks aren't the best at anything, doesn't automatically mean that they are bad. They are essentially a jack of all trades, with above average shooting, average melee and high model/wound count.

An old mantra almost as old as orks is "chop the shooty and shoot the choppy" - orks cannot meet the power of a specialist at their specialty, but they have tools to exploit their weaknesses. That's why shooting is an absolutely essential and important part of orks and always has been.

Only when balance heavily disfavored this approach orks fell back to their one strength - bringing more wounds than their opponent could possibly kill. Essentially every time the green tide became a popular tournament archetype in the last decade, it meant that the ork codex was having massive problems because its shooting and melee was too weak.


Jidmah here is 100% correct. For about the 100th time, I am not saying Orkz are garbage tier or anything of the like, I am pointing out that a lot of our units are no longer that good, and a while a few others absolutely stepped up to become better (warbikes, koptas, buggies, squig cavalry) that does not change the fact that the arch type playstyle for orkz (Greentide) is effectively dead because of the new rules of this edition teamed with our new rules for our 9th edition codex. As a whole I think the ork codex is marginally stronger than before, but in tournament play...I'm unsure as of right now, I have a feeling we will drop a tier in the competitive scene but we will have to wait MONTHS before we can find out for sure because 1: You need at least 3-4 months of solid tournament results to see a trend and 2: GW isn't releasing the ork codex for general use for some reason


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/08 18:30:37


Post by: koooaei


epronovost wrote:
Tyel wrote:

1.) Raiders are the best transport in the game - and 4-5 of them give any DE list some handy anti-tank. Trukks are... so-so as transports and bring essentially nothing else. (I mean if they do a new model, give it at least a twin big shoota. Preferably 2.)


Actually, I would say that trukks, now being improved by the new ramshackle rule making them tougher to light anti-tank firepower and relatively cheap and with a more mild degradation chart (Raiders lose ballistic skills which is very bothering to them), are almost great. If they had the option to take a rockit launcha, which are now d3 shots, on the cheap (let say for 5 pts) instead of its big shoota, Trukk spam filled with slugga boyz and others would be an interesting tactic. Trukks even had the option for rokkit laucha during 4th and 5th edition if I remember well alas, no bit no option.

The good thing about current trukk is that a squad of 10 Goff slugga boyz with a nob with a power klaw plus one trukk is cheaper than 10 tactical marines all the while capable of moping the floor with them if they get the charge (which shouldn't be all that hard). While probably not a top competitive tool. This is definitely not a bad setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.


Ironically, Tyranids are also another army many people believe is designed for close combat, but is actually better at shooting especially right now.


There's not much light sub-8str firepower left tho. Played a tourney and ramshackle was ever used only vs knights, ironically. They're running s7 D3 guns mostly. Other factions rely on s8+. Including other orks. So, this buff is taking place much less often than even I anticipated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the main reason is the abundance of -1 damage buffs now. So, what used to be good previously - D2 high rof weaponry has fallen from grace. Now you get a ton of s8 with not much less firepower and damage of 3+.

Now buggies are still ok with 5++ and -1 to hit



Automatically Appended Next Post:
You need at least 6 skrapjets and speed waagh to compete, I guess.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/08 21:09:24


Post by: Spoletta


SemperMortis wrote:
Spoletta wrote:

Talk about arguing in bad faith...
Yeah, sure if we point anti light infantry weapons at light infantry it is going to be more efficient than pointing it at heavy infantry. Shocking!
Here, get this math and see how OP boyz are.
An exocrine fire on a unit of intercessors. 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5,33 wounds. 4.44 killed for 88,8 points. 33% chances of losing one more to morale for a total of 95 points.
Same exocrine fires on a unit of 20 boyz. 5.33 killed. 48 points. 66% chances to lose 3 more to morale for a total of 66 points.

95 against 66. And that's assuming the worst possble effects from morale (i.e. only this weapon shooting at them in the whole turn... yeah, sure).

You see? Your intercessors are clearly worse than those boyz and will be terribly crippled before they make contact with the enemy lines, whle the boyz will still be quite strong...

OR

We stop making silly math hammer points which have no actual tie to what really happens on the table, and are just the epitome of armchairing.
As I have just shown, with math hammer you can prove everything and its contrary.


bad faith ...or more accurately described as a common game scenario. And yes, Ork boyz are "light" infantry and Space marines are all now considered "heavy" because of their 2nd wound. And yes, when you target those infantry with a heavy weapon that is almost purpose built to killing Marines, its going to perform less well against other targets. Or do you think S7 -3AP 2Dmg is the ideal weapon to be targeting troops choices? Without a shadow of a doubt the most common weapon on the table is the humble bolter. Most Marines wield it or a variant of it, SOB use them, Imperial Guard use them (not as frequently), Chaos Marines wield them.

And I don't know about you, but when i'm playing against someone, I generally don't put my Expensive artillery into a troops choice, i prefer to use it against vehicles and elite infantry like Terminators and such.

Regardless, the point being made which you seem to have missed is that someone asked "what is scarier to get assaulted by, some orkz or some Marines" and a few people pointed out that Marines are scarier. Daed jumped in well after the fact to try and mathhammer it out to show that in a vacuum if you get all boyz into assault (you never do) they are scarier. I'm pointing out that in no game I have ever played has a unit of boyz ever gotten into assault unmolested unless they were Da Jumped and since that is heavily nerfed now, its not a real tactic, and those same boyz are M5 and are not a turn 1 threat anymore, as in they literally can't hurt the enemy turn 1 at all unless their opponent bum rushed forward to get chopped up. Where as their opposite number is 1 faster and 2 has a weapon capable of at least harassing fire.



I was referring to your calculation that bolters kill more points of boyz than marines.
I don't have a horse in that other race, the ork dex is still too young to really assess if it is good or not. It is really a weird one since it is the first codex which has only datasheet stats and no detachment or army rules. The first dex without an anti soup bonus.

I just found very unfair that part of math hammer you did show, and so attacked that.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 01:14:38


Post by: SemperMortis


That's fine but its not a bad faith argument, i'm pointing out the difference between the two against the weapon system most likely to be used against them.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 02:51:54


Post by: Wakshaani


Right now, it feels like Shootaboys should be 7 pts a model and Choppa Boys should be 8.

Like the codex should be tweaked to have "Slugga and Shoota" as the default for 7 pts and have an option for "Any model may exchange their Shoota for a Choppa for +1 pt per model".

I'd probably pull Nobs down to 15 pts a model, again armed with Shoota and Slugga by default, with "May exchange a Shoota for Choppa" for +1 pt, "Shoota for Big Choppa" for +5 pts, and "Shoota for Power Klaw" for +10 pts. (This is a bit more than the current weapons cost, but lines up with other models, makes math easier, and, with the reduction in the model's base cost, comes out just about the same. (21 vs 20, 26 vs 25).

Heck, you could add "Exchange Shoota for a Kustom Shoota", "Kombi-Skorcha", or "Kombi-Rokkit" for an appropriate cost as well, giving you a few more options in there as well.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 04:48:27


Post by: epronovost


Wakshaani wrote:
Right now, it feels like Shootaboys should be 7 pts a model and Choppa Boys should be 8.

Like the codex should be tweaked to have "Slugga and Shoota" as the default for 7 pts and have an option for "Any model may exchange their Shoota for a Choppa for +1 pt per model".

I'd probably pull Nobs down to 15 pts a model, again armed with Shoota and Slugga by default, with "May exchange a Shoota for Choppa" for +1 pt, "Shoota for Big Choppa" for +5 pts, and "Shoota for Power Klaw" for +10 pts. (This is a bit more than the current weapons cost, but lines up with other models, makes math easier, and, with the reduction in the model's base cost, comes out just about the same. (21 vs 20, 26 vs 25).

Heck, you could add "Exchange Shoota for a Kustom Shoota", "Kombi-Skorcha", or "Kombi-Rokkit" for an appropriate cost as well, giving you a few more options in there as well.


I believe that at 9 points, Choppa Boyz are still okay. A squad of 10 in a trukk comes off cheap enough and hits hard enough to hurts its favored target (T4 or less infantry with a 3+ or worst armor). At 8 they would actually be very good, but not broken. At that price having big mobs would probably be something we could see again. AT 7 points, shoota boyz would become more correctly price, but I would not see players using them much with a 8 point choppa boyz. I personaly would simply raise their range back to 24 inches like in 3rd edition and keep the dakka profile and make them 8 points. This way, especially in bad moon, you could see them use as some sort of sponge in objective holder.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 06:55:12


Post by: endlesswaltz123


With the amount of LOS blocking terrain on tables now, I really believe mathammer is partially irrelevant other than looking at efficiency for mostly one turn, 2 turns max.

Ignore LOS is going to be a problem for Ork boyz, but I do not see it as a problem at all the idea of getting boyz units into combat, I think people may have to adjust to slightly smaller mobs so they can utilise LOS cover as much as possible.

Once it's figured out how to get them into the enemy lines - they will be a problem.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 07:56:58


Post by: koooaei


After a couple games I can say that 8 pt would not be enough to justify taking boyz over grots. A fair price seems to be 7 for boyz, 4 for grots. As for shootas, going lower vs choppas is not a good idea but buffing a shoota is. Dakka 4/3 base or access to speedwagh bonuses is enough to make shootaboyz decent at 7-8 pt range.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 12:38:37


Post by: Tyel


I think Choppa Boyz are reasonable at 9 points - and would be downright crazy at 7. The issue they have is shared with a lot of Troops Units. I.E. Why take them when you can take Kommandos and Stormboyz for 1-2 more points, who will do more or less the same thing on the table a turn or 2 earlier? Obsec has some value - but its unclear its all that, hence the fact many armies keep troops to a minimum. Equally if Choppa Boyz were 7 points you would just be back to "these are great, take 180 of them, Kommandos/Storm Boyz are comparatively clearly overcosted."

Its a similar shout with Shoota Boyz (although I think a reduction down to 8 points there could be justified). I don't actually think they compare "that" badly with 11 point basic SoB. But there's a reason the list which won the Lone Star Open contained precisely 5 and no more. If you could take units of 5 Shoota Boyz I think there'd be more debate versus Grots if you see the unit in terms of pure tax in say a mainly speedwaaagh list.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 13:32:00


Post by: Jidmah


Tyel wrote:
I think Choppa Boyz are reasonable at 9 points - and would be downright crazy at 7. The issue they have is shared with a lot of Troops Units. I.E. Why take them when you can take Kommandos and Stormboyz for 1-2 more points, who will do more or less the same thing on the table a turn or 2 earlier? Obsec has some value - but its unclear its all that, hence the fact many armies keep troops to a minimum. Equally if Choppa Boyz were 7 points you would just be back to "these are great, take 180 of them, Kommandos/Storm Boyz are comparatively clearly overcosted."

Its a similar shout with Shoota Boyz (although I think a reduction down to 8 points there could be justified). I don't actually think they compare "that" badly with 11 point basic SoB. But there's a reason the list which won the Lone Star Open contained precisely 5 and no more. If you could take units of 5 Shoota Boyz I think there'd be more debate versus Grots if you see the unit in terms of pure tax in say a mainly speedwaaagh list.


Meanwhile, people with just one unit of gretchin are worried if they have a fighting chance if they have to bring two units of boyz as tax


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 13:38:00


Post by: the_scotsman


Karol wrote:
Wych or succubi are glass only if someone runs them on foot. And both those units trade up.

Boys don't trade up.


Exactly, a pathetic, lowly, pitiful, weak ork boy (9ppm, 3A S4 AP-1 D1) could never compare to a busted, broken, super OP, way stronger wych (10ppm, 4A S3 AP-1 D1) in terms of trading up for their points cost.

Besides, Wyches are so much faster - their transport can move 12", dump them out, then they can advance and charge turn 1 and effortlessly get into melee with a +1A buff.

No, wait, is that wyches that do that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I think Choppa Boyz are reasonable at 9 points - and would be downright crazy at 7. The issue they have is shared with a lot of Troops Units. I.E. Why take them when you can take Kommandos and Stormboyz for 1-2 more points, who will do more or less the same thing on the table a turn or 2 earlier? Obsec has some value - but its unclear its all that, hence the fact many armies keep troops to a minimum. Equally if Choppa Boyz were 7 points you would just be back to "these are great, take 180 of them, Kommandos/Storm Boyz are comparatively clearly overcosted."

Its a similar shout with Shoota Boyz (although I think a reduction down to 8 points there could be justified). I don't actually think they compare "that" badly with 11 point basic SoB. But there's a reason the list which won the Lone Star Open contained precisely 5 and no more. If you could take units of 5 Shoota Boyz I think there'd be more debate versus Grots if you see the unit in terms of pure tax in say a mainly speedwaaagh list.


Meanwhile, people with just one unit of gretchin are worried if they have a fighting chance if they have to bring two units of boyz as tax


You literally only have to take one single troop squad to have 8 of one slot of your choice and 4 of every other slot.

You're gonna take your 1 trukk boyz squad in a patrol,

and then you're gonna take a spearhead/outrider and it's going to be 100% worth the CP because, what the feth are you spending those on otherwise in an ork army lol, might as well use them to avoid taking any of the tax troops (Non-trukkboy boyz/gretchins) or the tax HQs (garbage big meks/weirdboyz)


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 13:52:11


Post by: Jidmah


People winning tournaments with 0 ork boyz in their lists seem to disagree. I think trukk boyz are a nice gimmick for those who want to run them (including me), but nothing worth considering for any competitive gaming.
It's also worth noting that you can give that trukk boyz buff to MANz.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 16:13:30


Post by: Daedalus81


 Jidmah wrote:
People winning tournaments with 0 ork boyz in their lists seem to disagree. I think trukk boyz are a nice gimmick for those who want to run them (including me), but nothing worth considering for any competitive gaming.
It's also worth noting that you can give that trukk boyz buff to MANz.


We haven't had any tournaments with them yet, have we?


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 16:17:16


Post by: Tyel


I guess adopting a position of "Boyz are fine, you should just never see them in competitive lists" is a bit irrational.

But its kind of my view on a lot of troops units. I mean we often talk about the power of intercessors (and variants) - but I feel the days of a Marine player bringing 40~ along as the "core" of their list have long gone. If the answer is "throw half your points into your basic troops" then usually it means the book's got internal balance issues.

I guess this is where the DE-power comes in. I think spamming wyches is a bad idea - but one unit of 10 is a staple in most lists. It would have probably been a good idea to ensure at least one unit of boyz is a worthwhile take. Trukk Boyz could be this - but if you can take MANz that's probably a superior option, and I think either in a Speedwaaagh set up is probably inefficient over another couple of buggies. (Or say 10 grots and 5 bikes.)


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 18:26:03


Post by: koooaei


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
People winning tournaments with 0 ork boyz in their lists seem to disagree. I think trukk boyz are a nice gimmick for those who want to run them (including me), but nothing worth considering for any competitive gaming.
It's also worth noting that you can give that trukk boyz buff to MANz.


We haven't had any tournaments with them yet, have we?


We have allready. 2 orks took place 1 and 2 with buggy spam and 0 boyz.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 18:35:17


Post by: Daedalus81


 koooaei wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
People winning tournaments with 0 ork boyz in their lists seem to disagree. I think trukk boyz are a nice gimmick for those who want to run them (including me), but nothing worth considering for any competitive gaming.
It's also worth noting that you can give that trukk boyz buff to MANz.


We haven't had any tournaments with them yet, have we?


We have allready. 2 orks took place 1 and 2 with buggy spam and 0 boyz.


Yep, just saw those. With early success like that I doubt we'll see anyone move to Boyz for quite some time. Neither of them faced Admech so I'm curious to see more.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 18:48:02


Post by: Mr. Grey


It bothers me quite a bit that shoota boyz are now just objectively so much worse than slugga choppa, particularly since it's not like their shootas have any AP on them, and having to be within 9" or less to get the Dakka bonus is ridiculous. Sure I can push that to a whopping 12" with Bad Moons, but boyz on 32mm bases also take up a good amount of table space. Not that I'm great at the mathammer stuff, but it feels like there's NO reason at all to take shootas now, ever.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 18:53:46


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Mr. Grey wrote:
It bothers me quite a bit that shoota boyz are now just objectively so much worse than slugga choppa, particularly since it's not like their shootas have any AP on them, and having to be within 9" or less to get the Dakka bonus is ridiculous. Sure I can push that to a whopping 12" with Bad Moons, but boyz on 32mm bases also take up a good amount of table space. Not that I'm great at the mathammer stuff, but it feels like there's NO reason at all to take shootas now, ever.

If you can shoot out of a trukk I guess you can try to do drivebys with them? But yeah I'm having trouble trying to work out an effective use for my shoota boyz too.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 19:16:22


Post by: koooaei


There probably is no such way


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 19:37:00


Post by: epronovost


 koooaei wrote:
There probably is no such way


If a FAQ makes it so that shoota boyz mounted on a trukk receive full benefits of speedwaagh! You could make them semi-competitive.

PS: now that scorcha are just regular flamers do boyz finally get to have them? That would be nice option to have around and since they are remaking the boyz box, it could have been a new option.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 19:40:14


Post by: Tyel


So we are all on the same page I think the winning list was as follows:

Spoiler:
++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Orks 2021) [48 PL, 11CP, 835pts] ++

Clan Kultur: Freebooterz

HQ [7 PL, -1CP, 135pts] +
Deffkilla Wartrike [7 PL, -1CP, 135pts]: 3. Junkboss (Speed Freeks), Da Badskull Banner, Killa Jet, Snagga Klaw, Squig-hide Tyres [1 PL, 15pts], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP], 3x Twin Boomstick, Warlord

Troops [2 PL, 50pts] +
Gretchin [2 PL, 50pts]: 'Orrible Gitz . . 10x Gretchin [50pts]: 10x Grot Blaster

Elites [8 PL, 140pts] +
Kommandos [4 PL, 55pts] . . Boss Nob [15pts]: Power Klaw [5pts], Slugga, Stikkbombs . . 4x Kommando [40pts]: 4x Choppa, 4x Slugga, 4x Stikkbombs

Tankbustas [4 PL, 85pts] . . Boss Nob [17pts]: Rokkit Launcha . . 4x Tankbusta [68pts]: 4x Rokkit Launcha

Fast Attack [15 PL, 270pts] +
Megatrakk Scrapjets [5 PL, 90pts] . . Megatrakk Scrapjet [5 PL, 90pts]: Nose Drill, Rokkit Cannon, 2x Twin Big Shoota, Wing Missiles

2 X Megatrakk Scrapjets [10 PL, 180pts]

Flyer [16 PL, 240pts] +
2x Dakkajet [8 PL, 120pts]: 2x Additional Supa Shoota [20pts], 4x Supa Shoota

++ Outrider Detachment -3CP (Orks 2021) [66 PL, -5CP, 1,165pts] ++

Clan kultur: Freebooterz

HQ [14 PL, -2CP, 240pts] +
Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -1CP, 145pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Beastchoppa, Beasthide Mantle, Slugga, Squigosaur's Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP]

Big Mek in Mega Armour [6 PL, -1CP, 95pts]: Da Ded Shiny Shoota, Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP], Tellyport Blasta [10pts]

Elites [9 PL, 180pts] +
Burna Boyz [6 PL, 120pts] . . 8x Burna Boy [88pts]: 8x Burna, 8x Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs

Burna Boyz [3 PL, 60pts] . . 4x Burna Boy [44pts]: 4x Burna, 4x Stikkbombs . . Spanner [16pts]: Kustom Mega-Blasta [5pts], Stikkbombs

Fast Attack [43 PL, 745pts] +
Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [7 PL, 115pts]: Nitro Squigs [2 PL, 25pts] . . Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy [5 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Squig Launcha, Saw Blades, Sawn-off Shotgun, Squig Launcha, Squig Mine, Stikkbombs

2 X Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]

2 X Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [10 PL, 180pts]

Warbikers [8 PL, 110pts] . . Boss Nob [35pts]: 2x Dakkagun, Power Klaw [10pts] . . 3x Warbiker w/ Choppa [75pts]: 3x Choppa, 6x Dakkagun

Warbikers [4 PL, 80pts] . . Boss Nob [30pts]: Big Choppa [5pts], 2x Dakkagun . . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun

Warbikers [4 PL, 80pts] . . Boss Nob [30pts]: Big Choppa [5pts], 2x Dakkagun . . 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa [50pts]: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun


Burna Boyz the obvious question mark - but you can't argue with results. Maybe I'm missing something there.
I'd be minded to ditch the Tankbustas and Burna Boyz plus say a Big Choppa for 3 more Scrapjets. (Consolidate one Warbikers unit to make 2 squads of 5 to release the necessary FA slot.)


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 20:44:33


Post by: koooaei


I guess there's not much sense in maxing out skrapjets in a single squad cause of ld and things like eradicators or melts drops.
Or he couldn't find this many buggies in time.

As for burnas, they aren't half bad now. You can simply walk them hidden within a buggy blob, they can perform actions, shoot some chaff, fix a buggy every turn, maybe, act as some sort of charge deterrent with ap2 but not sure about it.

Just don't forget that this lists areheavilly skewed to fit the heavy blos environment that the tourneys try to implement nowadays to somehow mitigate going 2d. Things that would never work in your local store can suddenly work when half the board is high blos.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 21:30:22


Post by: Insectum7


 Jidmah wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.


Sorry, but that's one of the worst metrics to determine whether someone is good at combat. By that metric both marines and eldar are vastly better melee armies and should get their shooting taken away to compensate.

Whether an army or a unit is good at something is not determined by their ability to hit.
I don't see how your interpretation of what I said makes any sense. Eldar and Marines have equal WS and BS. Orks have a clear emphasis on melee with their basic stats. And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.


So, weren't you just saying that WS is the only thing that matters? Now it's also number of attacks? Or let's get wild and we have to look at the whole picture and take all stats into consideration to find out who is good at combat? And let's go a step further and include rules and army synergy. Crazy talk, right?

An no, even in prior editions, marines and eldar always had similar or better melee stats than orks. Today even if you pick a random chapter with no real benefit for melee, a unit of intercessors tends to be just as deadly in combat as an equally costed units of boyz.
[It's really easy.

An Ork had a higher WS than it's BS. 4 vs. 2
An Eldar had a 4 and. 4, as did a Marine.

The Ork baseline stats show a clear preference for CC even in a vacuum without considering other factions. Considering their base 2 attacks vs. nearly everybody else's 1, even moreso. That's why people consider them a CC oriented force, it's literally baked into their statline as part of their core identity.

Obviously you can give Orks guns and tanks etc, and obviously you can have Marines etc. that are good at melee . . . but their core stats still speak. That's why people consider Orks to be an army with an emphasis on melee. The basic unit has more of an empahasis on melee than most. The fact that they are not better at it, specifically against the 2W Marine paradigm, is a problem imo.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 22:28:24


Post by: koooaei


 Insectum7 wrote:


An Ork had a higher WS than it's BS. 4 vs. 2
An Eldar had a 4 and. 4, as did a Marine.

The Ork baseline stats show a clear preference for CC even in a vacuum without considering other factions. Considering their base 2 attacks vs. nearly everybody else's 1, even moreso. That's why people consider them a CC oriented force, it's literally baked into their statline as part of their core identity.

Obviously you can give Orks guns and tanks etc, and obviously you can have Marines etc. that are good at melee . . . but their core stats still speak. That's why people consider Orks to be an army with an emphasis on melee. The basic unit has more of an empahasis on melee than most. The fact that they are not better at it, specifically against the 2W Marine paradigm, is a problem imo.


That's true. And orks have indeed been good in mellee for the most part - at least since 3d edition. The profile of all troops is more mellee-oriented at it's core.

And if we remember good ol' days of, say, 5th edition, an ork had s3 with furious charge (which made him s4 on the turn he charged) and 2 attacks base and his cost was 6 pts. While a marine had 1 s4 attack while costing something around 15 or 16, can't remember the exact cost. Ork boyz outchopped most regular infantry point-to-point. Even shootaboyz were quite good in mellee and were truly feared as they mowed down 1w termies, vehicles, monsters... Basically, most units in the game didn't want to get charged by a bunch of boyz. Especially if there was a powerklaw nobody that alone could wreck basically any target if you got a bit lucky. He did cost like 41 pts but he was well worth it. And they were fearless if 10+ boyz remained. Also, loosing more than 30 to shooting was fairly uncommon even in 2k games.

If you look at them now, their profile is basically the same with the exception of str being 4 by default. But they got a 50% price increase since than. Basic Marines cost almost the same but got 3 times choppier and a 2d wound, most vehicles - even light ones get a decent chance of surviving a charge of 15-20 boyz, and it's rare to NOT loose a squad of 30 per turn as damage is turned to 11 compared to what there used to be during 4th and 5th. Pk Nob is significantly cheaper but he's a joke compared to his 5th or even 6-7 to that extent - self.

So, 5th boyz are 2 heads above current boyz in most regards.

What about 8th boyz. They were good at the start when they still costed 7,were clan-less,could benefit from Ghaz and not be so easily shot off the board as firepower was still not too often for them.

Than codexes started dropping, boyz became worse and worse but than our own codex came out with Green tide and clans and here we go again, boyz are still decent, not 5th level of good but you could expect at least 30 in any list cause of green tide and reliable dajump. It was only to take 60.

Than 9 dropped and boyz got to 8 ppm. Which seemed bad but than most things got a price hike. So, they were still a decent unit. Still showing on top tables from time to time. Than power creep codexes started to show and orks, to get here with boyz disappeared from top tables, yet, Green tide boyz with semi-fearless were still ok to take in a local tourney without cut-throat lists.

Than we got a new codex. That took out their fearless, Green tide, upped a price to crazy 9ppm, and took away reliable dajump and army wide free 6++ from deff skulls and +1 to charge from evil sunz. It did give us t5 and ap1 choppas which is nice but not nearly enough to justify taking boyz other than something like an odd trukkboy min squad in your local game.

All in all, it's just another iconic unit that got shelved for the most part. Like tactical Marines. I guess, it's the faith of all such units GW will probably push their new beast snaggas, cause currently they're even in a worse state than poor boyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, all in all, yes, our stats are more mellee-oriented - even on shooty vehicles, but all the other factors just make mellee not that appealing. We do have good mellee units - especially from the new boxes - killings, sqymuigosaurs, squighogs, but all the old stuff is just not something you'd throw at the enemy up front. More of a "chop the last couple primaries Marines off the objective".
And what good we have in mellee does not compete with mellee from all the other new codexes. We have no chance of going toe to toe against mellee de, da, dg, even Marines with dreadnaughts that haven't received a new book yet. We now see what GK can do and we're better off not going anywhere near them. Even thousand sons are a problem for our mellee. So, of all the new factions, we can probably go toe to toe with admech mellee, which is saying something, doesn't it? Orks are an army with ws3 bs5 a2 base stat line which is one of the worst in mellee and one of the best at shooting ATM. What can I say... DAKKADAKKADAKKA


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/09 23:07:27


Post by: Daedalus81


The stats of old boyz were great by comparison, but they had to be, because you died in droves when you got caught running with I2. And depending on edition with no grenades charging into terrain was suicide as well as quite difficult with no premeasure and a low move.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 00:04:59


Post by: Galas


Is a shame that shoota boyz are so bad. Aesthetically, for me, they look much cooler than the choppa boyz.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 00:15:34


Post by: Insectum7


 koooaei wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:


An Ork had a higher WS than it's BS. 4 vs. 2
An Eldar had a 4 and. 4, as did a Marine.

The Ork baseline stats show a clear preference for CC even in a vacuum without considering other factions. Considering their base 2 attacks vs. nearly everybody else's 1, even moreso. That's why people consider them a CC oriented force, it's literally baked into their statline as part of their core identity.

Obviously you can give Orks guns and tanks etc, and obviously you can have Marines etc. that are good at melee . . . but their core stats still speak. That's why people consider Orks to be an army with an emphasis on melee. The basic unit has more of an empahasis on melee than most. The fact that they are not better at it, specifically against the 2W Marine paradigm, is a problem imo.


That's true. And orks have indeed been good in mellee for the most part - at least since 3d edition. The profile of all troops is more mellee-oriented at it's core.

And if we remember good ol' days of, say, 5th edition, an ork had s3 with furious charge (which made him s4 on the turn he charged) and 2 attacks base and his cost was 6 pts. While a marine had 1 s4 attack while costing something around 15 or 16, can't remember the exact cost. Ork boyz outchopped most regular infantry point-to-point. Even shootaboyz were quite good in mellee and were truly feared as they mowed down 1w termies, vehicles, monsters... Basically, most units in the game didn't want to get charged by a bunch of boyz. Especially if there was a powerklaw nobody that alone could wreck basically any target if you got a bit lucky. He did cost like 41 pts but he was well worth it. And they were fearless if 10+ boyz remained. Also, loosing more than 30 to shooting was fairly uncommon even in 2k games.

If you look at them now, their profile is basically the same with the exception of str being 4 by default. But they got a 50% price increase since than. Basic Marines cost almost the same but got 3 times choppier and a 2d wound, most vehicles - even light ones get a decent chance of surviving a charge of 15-20 boyz, and it's rare to NOT loose a squad of 30 per turn as damage is turned to 11 compared to what there used to be during 4th and 5th. Pk Nob is significantly cheaper but he's a joke compared to his 5th or even 6-7 to that extent - self.

So, 5th boyz are 2 heads above current boyz in most regards.

What about 8th boyz. They were good at the start when they still costed 7,were clan-less,could benefit from Ghaz and not be so easily shot off the board as firepower was still not too often for them.

Than codexes started dropping, boyz became worse and worse but than our own codex came out with Green tide and clans and here we go again, boyz are still decent, not 5th level of good but you could expect at least 30 in any list cause of green tide and reliable dajump. It was only to take 60.

Than 9 dropped and boyz got to 8 ppm. Which seemed bad but than most things got a price hike. So, they were still a decent unit. Still showing on top tables from time to time. Than power creep codexes started to show and orks, to get here with boyz disappeared from top tables, yet, Green tide boyz with semi-fearless were still ok to take in a local tourney without cut-throat lists.

Than we got a new codex. That took out their fearless, Green tide, upped a price to crazy 9ppm, and took away reliable dajump and army wide free 6++ from deff skulls and +1 to charge from evil sunz. It did give us t5 and ap1 choppas which is nice but not nearly enough to justify taking boyz other than something like an odd trukkboy min squad in your local game.

All in all, it's just another iconic unit that got shelved for the most part. Like tactical Marines. I guess, it's the faith of all such units GW will probably push their new beast snaggas, cause currently they're even in a worse state than poor boyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, all in all, yes, our stats are more mellee-oriented - even on shooty vehicles, but all the other factors just make mellee not that appealing. We do have good mellee units - especially from the new boxes - killings, sqymuigosaurs, squighogs, but all the old stuff is just not something you'd throw at the enemy up front. More of a "chop the last couple primaries Marines off the objective".
And what good we have in mellee does not compete with mellee from all the other new codexes. We have no chance of going toe to toe against mellee de, da, dg, even Marines with dreadnaughts that haven't received a new book yet. We now see what GK can do and we're better off not going anywhere near them. Even thousand sons are a problem for our mellee. So, of all the new factions, we can probably go toe to toe with admech mellee, which is saying something, doesn't it? Orks are an army with ws3 bs5 a2 base stat line which is one of the worst in mellee and one of the best at shooting ATM. What can I say... DAKKADAKKADAKKA
Which makes where they're currently at just a friggin shame. It's more or less the same gripe I have with current Necron Warriors/Immortals, or Shuriken Catapults, in that they've just been eroded over time.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 00:40:42


Post by: Grimskul


 Insectum7 wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:


An Ork had a higher WS than it's BS. 4 vs. 2
An Eldar had a 4 and. 4, as did a Marine.

The Ork baseline stats show a clear preference for CC even in a vacuum without considering other factions. Considering their base 2 attacks vs. nearly everybody else's 1, even moreso. That's why people consider them a CC oriented force, it's literally baked into their statline as part of their core identity.

Obviously you can give Orks guns and tanks etc, and obviously you can have Marines etc. that are good at melee . . . but their core stats still speak. That's why people consider Orks to be an army with an emphasis on melee. The basic unit has more of an empahasis on melee than most. The fact that they are not better at it, specifically against the 2W Marine paradigm, is a problem imo.


That's true. And orks have indeed been good in mellee for the most part - at least since 3d edition. The profile of all troops is more mellee-oriented at it's core.

And if we remember good ol' days of, say, 5th edition, an ork had s3 with furious charge (which made him s4 on the turn he charged) and 2 attacks base and his cost was 6 pts. While a marine had 1 s4 attack while costing something around 15 or 16, can't remember the exact cost. Ork boyz outchopped most regular infantry point-to-point. Even shootaboyz were quite good in mellee and were truly feared as they mowed down 1w termies, vehicles, monsters... Basically, most units in the game didn't want to get charged by a bunch of boyz. Especially if there was a powerklaw nobody that alone could wreck basically any target if you got a bit lucky. He did cost like 41 pts but he was well worth it. And they were fearless if 10+ boyz remained. Also, loosing more than 30 to shooting was fairly uncommon even in 2k games.

If you look at them now, their profile is basically the same with the exception of str being 4 by default. But they got a 50% price increase since than. Basic Marines cost almost the same but got 3 times choppier and a 2d wound, most vehicles - even light ones get a decent chance of surviving a charge of 15-20 boyz, and it's rare to NOT loose a squad of 30 per turn as damage is turned to 11 compared to what there used to be during 4th and 5th. Pk Nob is significantly cheaper but he's a joke compared to his 5th or even 6-7 to that extent - self.

So, 5th boyz are 2 heads above current boyz in most regards.

What about 8th boyz. They were good at the start when they still costed 7,were clan-less,could benefit from Ghaz and not be so easily shot off the board as firepower was still not too often for them.

Than codexes started dropping, boyz became worse and worse but than our own codex came out with Green tide and clans and here we go again, boyz are still decent, not 5th level of good but you could expect at least 30 in any list cause of green tide and reliable dajump. It was only to take 60.

Than 9 dropped and boyz got to 8 ppm. Which seemed bad but than most things got a price hike. So, they were still a decent unit. Still showing on top tables from time to time. Than power creep codexes started to show and orks, to get here with boyz disappeared from top tables, yet, Green tide boyz with semi-fearless were still ok to take in a local tourney without cut-throat lists.

Than we got a new codex. That took out their fearless, Green tide, upped a price to crazy 9ppm, and took away reliable dajump and army wide free 6++ from deff skulls and +1 to charge from evil sunz. It did give us t5 and ap1 choppas which is nice but not nearly enough to justify taking boyz other than something like an odd trukkboy min squad in your local game.

All in all, it's just another iconic unit that got shelved for the most part. Like tactical Marines. I guess, it's the faith of all such units GW will probably push their new beast snaggas, cause currently they're even in a worse state than poor boyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, all in all, yes, our stats are more mellee-oriented - even on shooty vehicles, but all the other factors just make mellee not that appealing. We do have good mellee units - especially from the new boxes - killings, sqymuigosaurs, squighogs, but all the old stuff is just not something you'd throw at the enemy up front. More of a "chop the last couple primaries Marines off the objective".
And what good we have in mellee does not compete with mellee from all the other new codexes. We have no chance of going toe to toe against mellee de, da, dg, even Marines with dreadnaughts that haven't received a new book yet. We now see what GK can do and we're better off not going anywhere near them. Even thousand sons are a problem for our mellee. So, of all the new factions, we can probably go toe to toe with admech mellee, which is saying something, doesn't it? Orks are an army with ws3 bs5 a2 base stat line which is one of the worst in mellee and one of the best at shooting ATM. What can I say... DAKKADAKKADAKKA
Which makes where they're currently at just a friggin shame. It's more or less the same gripe I have with current Necron Warriors/Immortals, or Shuriken Catapults, in that they've just been eroded over time.


Yeah, unfortunately the 40k arms race is rarely kind to any faction that aren't space marines or imperials of some sort. Xenos do seem to be shafted a lot when it comes to mainline infantry weapons.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 00:59:34


Post by: epronovost


 Insectum7 wrote:
Which makes where they're currently at just a friggin shame. It's more or less the same gripe I have with current Necron Warriors/Immortals, or Shuriken Catapults, in that they've just been eroded over time.


Odd, from what I have gleaned, Immortals are in a rather good spot, warriors aren't in such a bad place either, but big blobs require more investment to work and MSU of Immortals have been favored since they are more flexible. Eldars though are in a tough spot.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 01:49:07


Post by: Insectum7


epronovost wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Which makes where they're currently at just a friggin shame. It's more or less the same gripe I have with current Necron Warriors/Immortals, or Shuriken Catapults, in that they've just been eroded over time.


Odd, from what I have gleaned, Immortals are in a rather good spot, warriors aren't in such a bad place either, but big blobs require more investment to work and MSU of Immortals have been favored since they are more flexible. Eldars though are in a tough spot.
They may be in an ok spot, point for point, but my beef is that Warriors used to be individually superior to a Marine, and Immortals even more so. They've dropped in standing, model-by-model through the years.
Spoiler:


It seems like Boyz have gone through a similar trajectory in terms of individual model CC capability or worth.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 06:49:27


Post by: koooaei


If I get the graph right, it's just the display of point costs over time - not the assumed effectiveness of units.

For orks, they were 6 in 6, than 7 in 7, 8 in 8...9 in 9......wait a second...


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 06:51:09


Post by: epronovost


 koooaei wrote:
For orks, they were 6 in 6, than 7 in 7, 8 in 8...9 in 9......wait a second...


Lol, that's one weird of a coincidence.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
They may be in an ok spot, point for point, but my beef is that Warriors used to be individually superior to a Marine, and Immortals even more so. They've dropped in standing, model-by-model through the years.
Spoiler:


It seems like Boyz have gone through a similar trajectory in terms of individual model CC capability or worth.


That's not unreasonable from a fluff to game performance. Space Marines were depicted as generally better than Necron Warriors in pretty much all field and about has tough as Immortals, better then them in close combat, but less powerful at range on a one on one basis. Right now, these general observations are reflected in the game. Orks always were inferior to Space Marines and while orks are represented as about as dangerous as Space Marines in close combat, they are much less heavily armored, less disciplined and significantly dumber. This is also rather well represented in a one to one basis. Ork boyz punch a little bit harder than Space Marines, but are less tough than the much more heavily armored Space Marines. Orks have benefited well from "power creep". They gained better choppa, an extra point of strength and toughness from 7th edition. Eldars, especially Eldar Aspect Warriors, suffered from stat creep.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 06:56:54


Post by: TheBestBucketHead


 koooaei wrote:
If I get the graph right, it's just the display of point costs over time - not the assumed effectiveness of units.

For orks, they were 6 in 6, than 7 in 7, 8 in 8...9 in 9......wait a second...


The graph isn't great at showing his point, but Necrons used to be everything a marine was, basically, but with a better gun. Then that role went to Immortals.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 10:11:47


Post by: the_scotsman


 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
If I get the graph right, it's just the display of point costs over time - not the assumed effectiveness of units.

For orks, they were 6 in 6, than 7 in 7, 8 in 8...9 in 9......wait a second...


The graph isn't great at showing his point, but Necrons used to be everything a marine was, basically, but with a better gun. Then that role went to Immortals.


Aaaaaaaand now an immortal is 1W while a marine is 2W, because of course they are


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 11:59:17


Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


 the_scotsman wrote:
 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
If I get the graph right, it's just the display of point costs over time - not the assumed effectiveness of units.

For orks, they were 6 in 6, than 7 in 7, 8 in 8...9 in 9......wait a second...


The graph isn't great at showing his point, but Necrons used to be everything a marine was, basically, but with a better gun. Then that role went to Immortals.


Aaaaaaaand now an immortal is 1W while a marine is 2W, because of course they are


I mean, the immortals have a lot of ways to stand back up again after and T5 3+ is pretty nice when you have a decent chance at least 2-3 immortals in a squad stand back up again to be rekilled (re-reanimated?)


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 12:02:57


Post by: SemperMortis


Tyel wrote:
I think Choppa Boyz are reasonable at 9 points - and would be downright crazy at 7. The issue they have is shared with a lot of Troops Units. I.E. Why take them when you can take Kommandos and Stormboyz for 1-2 more points, who will do more or less the same thing on the table a turn or 2 earlier? Obsec has some value - but its unclear its all that, hence the fact many armies keep troops to a minimum. Equally if Choppa Boyz were 7 points you would just be back to "these are great, take 180 of them, Kommandos/Storm Boyz are comparatively clearly overcosted."

Its a similar shout with Shoota Boyz (although I think a reduction down to 8 points there could be justified). I don't actually think they compare "that" badly with 11 point basic SoB. But there's a reason the list which won the Lone Star Open contained precisely 5 and no more. If you could take units of 5 Shoota Boyz I think there'd be more debate versus Grots if you see the unit in terms of pure tax in say a mainly speedwaaagh list.


I think Choppa boyz might have been reasonable at 9ppm if GW hadn't gutted them with horrific morale problems. I think 8 would have been better personally, and if they are really fixed on keeping morale as a MAJOR issue for orkz, 6. And I am being serious. Turn one if you kill 6 boyz, which isn't hard to do you lose 1 more to morale and than 4 more to attrition. I lose almost as many to morale as I do to you shooting them. At that point, if they cost more than 6ppm they won't be competitive. Is 6ppm way to low for a T5 model with S4 and 2 attacks? Absolutely, but with that crushing morale issue its really not. Most ork players I think would agree on this, I would rather go back to T4 and old Morale rules and being 8ppm (keeping the -1 Choppa) than stay at 9ppm and have T5 with the morale issue.

As far as shoota boyz, GW is again showing how useless they are in regards to orkz. it used to be a shoota boy was +1ppm more htan a choppa boy...i literally never understood that, now though? If you brought them down to 7ppm they would still be over priced. The shoota hasn't gained any real buffs in firepower since 4th edition. DDD in 8th was probably its biggest buff and No the new 3(2) dakka profile is WORSE than 8th edition versions of it. Gaining 50% more shots sounds great until you realize you have to be within 9' of your target. That doesn't work for a unit that is over priced, not at all durable and at most wants to be camping on an objective.

 Insectum7 wrote:
It's really easy.

An Ork had a higher WS than it's BS. 4 vs. 2
An Eldar had a 4 and. 4, as did a Marine.

The Ork baseline stats show a clear preference for CC even in a vacuum without considering other factions. Considering their base 2 attacks vs. nearly everybody else's 1, even moreso. That's why people consider them a CC oriented force, it's literally baked into their statline as part of their core identity.

Obviously you can give Orks guns and tanks etc, and obviously you can have Marines etc. that are good at melee . . . but their core stats still speak. That's why people consider Orks to be an army with an emphasis on melee. The basic unit has more of an empahasis on melee than most. The fact that they are not better at it, specifically against the 2W Marine paradigm, is a problem imo.


You forgot that orkz were also Initiative 2 or 3 which meant that they swung LAST after all other melee troops/units. Those 1 attack Marines with similar WS stood up a lot better when you realize that they all got to attack before the orkz swung.

epronovost wrote:


I believe that at 9 points, Choppa Boyz are still okay. A squad of 10 in a trukk comes off cheap enough and hits hard enough to hurts its favored target (T4 or less infantry with a 3+ or worst armor). At 8 they would actually be very good, but not broken. At that price having big mobs would probably be something we could see again. AT 7 points, shoota boyz would become more correctly price, but I would not see players using them much with a 8 point choppa boyz. I personaly would simply raise their range back to 24 inches like in 3rd edition and keep the dakka profile and make them 8 points. This way, especially in bad moon, you could see them use as some sort of sponge in objective holder.


At no point would you ever put 10 choppa boyz in a trukk right now. That is 160pts for what amounts to a turn 2 threat at best (assuming not trukk boyz) 10 boyz in CC work out to 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg vs a Marine. If we are talking about Trukk boyz, I would never use boyz for that, and instead would use meganobz or just regular nobz. A trukk is just flat out over priced at 70ppm for what little it does. A Dark Eldar raider is 25ppm more and its 4' faster, +1 WS +2 BS, +1 LD and the same save. More importantly it comes stock standard with a Dark Lance, a CCW AND a 5++ it carries 1 fewer model than a trukk as well. Give the Trukk a 10pt price cut, bring it to WS3 and either a wreckin ball or a grabbing klaw for free and maybe its on a close to even footing, but likely not.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
With the amount of LOS blocking terrain on tables now, I really believe mathammer is partially irrelevant other than looking at efficiency for mostly one turn, 2 turns max.

Ignore LOS is going to be a problem for Ork boyz, but I do not see it as a problem at all the idea of getting boyz units into combat, I think people may have to adjust to slightly smaller mobs so they can utilise LOS cover as much as possible.

Once it's figured out how to get them into the enemy lines - they will be a problem.


not particularly. At 9ppm they are no longer low risk high reward. Killing even a handul almost guarantees morale issues and thanks to the smaller footprint, none of the buffs you can use on them seem worth it. Not to mention their biggest benefits from 8th have all disappeared. No more Guaranteed Da jump, no more 8' charge no more +1 to attack.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 13:57:51


Post by: Insectum7


epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
They may be in an ok spot, point for point, but my beef is that Warriors used to be individually superior to a Marine, and Immortals even more so. They've dropped in standing, model-by-model through the years.
Spoiler:


It seems like Boyz have gone through a similar trajectory in terms of individual model CC capability or worth.


That's not unreasonable from a fluff to game performance. Space Marines were depicted as generally better than Necron Warriors in pretty much all field and about has tough as Immortals,
Well when did you start playing? Because Necron Warriors started off as being strictly better than Marines in basically every way. T5, 2+Save, and a bunch of crazy abilities. The fluff for them has changed, and they've absolutely seen a degradation over time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:


 Insectum7 wrote:
It's really easy.

An Ork had a higher WS than it's BS. 4 vs. 2
An Eldar had a 4 and. 4, as did a Marine.

The Ork baseline stats show a clear preference for CC even in a vacuum without considering other factions. Considering their base 2 attacks vs. nearly everybody else's 1, even moreso. That's why people consider them a CC oriented force, it's literally baked into their statline as part of their core identity.

Obviously you can give Orks guns and tanks etc, and obviously you can have Marines etc. that are good at melee . . . but their core stats still speak. That's why people consider Orks to be an army with an emphasis on melee. The basic unit has more of an empahasis on melee than most. The fact that they are not better at it, specifically against the 2W Marine paradigm, is a problem imo.


You forgot that orkz were also Initiative 2 or 3 which meant that they swung LAST after all other melee troops/units. Those 1 attack Marines with similar WS stood up a lot better when you realize that they all got to attack before the orkz swung.
Immaterial to my point, really. Plus back in the day the Orks could double their Initiative on the charge. Plus, even swinging first, each Marine only had a 20% chance to kill an Ork, while each Ork had a 50% chance (thinking of third edition) to kill a Marine.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 14:07:28


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Yeah, Orks had furious charge which would increase their initiative stat.
Didn't it only add +1 to initiative and strength though? I don't remember FC doubling it.

I recall Orks being their most dangerous on the charge but their damage output drops considerably if they are stuck in combat. Even then they had a bit of staying power and could slowly grind marines down through weight of attacks.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 14:15:57


Post by: SemperMortis


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, Orks had furious charge which would increase their initiative stat.
Didn't it only add +1 to initiative and strength though? I don't remember FC doubling it.

I recall Orks being their most dangerous on the charge but their damage output drops considerably if they are stuck in combat. Even then they had a bit of staying power and could slowly grind marines down through weight of attacks.


I'm reasonably sure Orkz went to I3 when they charged but its been years .

So what happened was, 30 boyz charge in, Most (20ish) would get into combat and swing. But before they got to swing the 9 Marines and Sgt would get to fight first. So 9 Marines and a Sgt with Chainsword was 11 attacks, 5-6 hits, 2-3 wounds and 2-3 dead Orkz. The 20 boyz would swing with 60 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds and 5 dead Marines. In the 2nd round of combat the Marines swing again but with 6 attacks, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds and 1.5 dead boyz. Here is the crazy part though. Those 20 remaining boyz would now get 60 attacks, 30 hits, 10 wounds and 3.3 dead Marines. So they effectively tarpitted one another. 10 Marines was 150pts, 30 boyz was 180pts. In reality though, the Orkz would take a Nob and give him a PK for another 35pts I believe (can't remember prices) and that nob would get 3 attacks, 1.5 hits and 1.5 dead Marines himself, and more importantly that nob could 1 shot a lot of vehicles.

In reality, the boyz were just ablative wounds for the Nob who would do the real heavy hitting.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 14:21:43


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


SemperMortis wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, Orks had furious charge which would increase their initiative stat.
Didn't it only add +1 to initiative and strength though? I don't remember FC doubling it.

I recall Orks being their most dangerous on the charge but their damage output drops considerably if they are stuck in combat. Even then they had a bit of staying power and could slowly grind marines down through weight of attacks.


I'm reasonably sure Orkz went to I3 when they charged but its been years .

So what happened was, 30 boyz charge in, Most (20ish) would get into combat and swing. But before they got to swing the 9 Marines and Sgt would get to fight first. So 9 Marines and a Sgt with Chainsword was 11 attacks, 5-6 hits, 2-3 wounds and 2-3 dead Orkz. The 20 boyz would swing with 60 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds and 5 dead Marines. In the 2nd round of combat the Marines swing again but with 6 attacks, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds and 1.5 dead boyz. Here is the crazy part though. Those 20 remaining boyz would now get 60 attacks, 30 hits, 10 wounds and 3.3 dead Marines. So they effectively tarpitted one another. 10 Marines was 150pts, 30 boyz was 180pts. In reality though, the Orkz would take a Nob and give him a PK for another 35pts I believe (can't remember prices) and that nob would get 3 attacks, 1.5 hits and 1.5 dead Marines himself, and more importantly that nob could 1 shot a lot of vehicles.

In reality, the boyz were just ablative wounds for the Nob who would do the real heavy hitting.

Yeah, going to I3 sounds about right.
I disagree that boyz were just ablative wounds though. In your example boyz killed about 9 marines in 2 turns. If they had a nob that would finish off the marines. The nob is there to support the boyz and finish off survivors and give them anti-vehicle support.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 14:24:05


Post by: koooaei


Iirc, nob had 4 s9 a2 attacks on the charge that hit on 3s. This was terrifying back in the day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But you took extra wounds for loosing a melee combat as a price for fearless.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 14:26:12


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 koooaei wrote:
Iirc, nob had 4 s9 a2 attacks on the charge that hit on 3s. This was terrifying back in the day.

Oh it was certainly scary, especially against vehicles. Not going to solo entire squad by himself though, as if he's S9 he will most likely have a klaw which means striking last, and 4 attacks isn't going to kill 10 marines at once.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 14:30:52


Post by: koooaei


Boyz weren't as fast though, cause they only charged 6. Or the best result of 2d6 if charging through difterrain, which ended up as 2-3 pretty often. No re-rolls, no reliable teleports ofc. However, they had 5+ cover from kff mek all the time.

From my experience running hordes of 90+ boyz, it was normal for them to run across the board for 2 turns and than make a charge on the 3d turn with significantly depletet numbers. But here comes the klaw-nob's role. They were still very effective. Now, if you don't charge the enemy top of turn 2, you're done for. Preferably, do it t1 cause otherwise you're shot off the board easilly


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 14:36:04


Post by: SemperMortis


 koooaei wrote:
Boyz weren't as fast though, cause they only charged 6. Or the best result of 2d6, which ended up as 2-3 pretty often. No re-rolls, no reliable teleports ofc.
From my experience running hordes of 90+ boyz, it was normal for them to run across the board for 2 turns and than make a charge on the 3d turn with significantly depletet numbers. But here comes the klaw-nob's role. They were still very effective. Now, if you don't charge the enemy top of turn 2, you're done for. Preferably, do it t1 cause otherwise you're shot off the board easilly


Yes but at the same time, those 10 Marines were also only getting 9 bolter shots compared to the 20 they get now So 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds 3 dead Orkz compared to 20 shots, 13ish hits, 4.3 wounds and 4.3 dead Boyz

And The Marines were 150pts compared to 180 for orkz they are now 180pts to 270 for orkz. In case you don't feel like doing the math, that means Marines are now about 50% more effective at killing Orkz than they were in 4th edition while going up in price 20% The orkz on the flipside are now less durable than they were in 4th but went up 50% in price. Games Workshop BaLaNcE


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 14:47:56


Post by: Tyel


Generally on the other side of the table, but my memory was Boyz being decidedly unthreatening aside from the PK armed nob and possibly a warboss or something in the unit.

Partly this was because of the same old problem. You can say 20 Orks equals 30 attacks etc - but there are plenty of times you wouldn't be able to swing with all 20 orks, so the actual damage became much less. Whereas the nob can rip up vehicles, threaten instant death on characters or multi-wound models etc.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 15:57:58


Post by: koooaei


SemperMortis wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Boyz weren't as fast though, cause they only charged 6. Or the best result of 2d6, which ended up as 2-3 pretty often. No re-rolls, no reliable teleports ofc.
From my experience running hordes of 90+ boyz, it was normal for them to run across the board for 2 turns and than make a charge on the 3d turn with significantly depletet numbers. But here comes the klaw-nob's role. They were still very effective. Now, if you don't charge the enemy top of turn 2, you're done for. Preferably, do it t1 cause otherwise you're shot off the board easilly


Yes but at the same time, those 10 Marines were also only getting 9 bolter shots compared to the 20 they get now So 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds 3 dead Orkz compared to 20 shots, 13ish hits, 4.3 wounds and 4.3 dead Boyz

And The Marines were 150pts compared to 180 for orkz they are now 180pts to 270 for orkz. In case you don't feel like doing the math, that means Marines are now about 50% more effective at killing Orkz than they were in 4th edition while going up in price 20% The orkz on the flipside are now less durable than they were in 4th but went up 50% in price. Games Workshop BaLaNcE


In all fairness, vanilla tacticals were considered an underwhelming choice even back in a day - people used min scouts. They still are. While Boyz were good. Underwhelming now. So...BaLaNcE indeed!


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 17:18:03


Post by: Insectum7


SemperMortis wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, Orks had furious charge which would increase their initiative stat.
Didn't it only add +1 to initiative and strength though? I don't remember FC doubling it.

I recall Orks being their most dangerous on the charge but their damage output drops considerably if they are stuck in combat. Even then they had a bit of staying power and could slowly grind marines down through weight of attacks.


I'm reasonably sure Orkz went to I3 when they charged but its been years .
During 3rd and most of 4th they doubled Initiative when charging by passing a Mob Check. Boys at I4 and Nobs at I6 (although usually fought last because they were actually armed with a Power Klaw).


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 18:26:10


Post by: SemperMortis


 koooaei wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Boyz weren't as fast though, cause they only charged 6. Or the best result of 2d6, which ended up as 2-3 pretty often. No re-rolls, no reliable teleports ofc.
From my experience running hordes of 90+ boyz, it was normal for them to run across the board for 2 turns and than make a charge on the 3d turn with significantly depletet numbers. But here comes the klaw-nob's role. They were still very effective. Now, if you don't charge the enemy top of turn 2, you're done for. Preferably, do it t1 cause otherwise you're shot off the board easilly


Yes but at the same time, those 10 Marines were also only getting 9 bolter shots compared to the 20 they get now So 9 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds 3 dead Orkz compared to 20 shots, 13ish hits, 4.3 wounds and 4.3 dead Boyz

And The Marines were 150pts compared to 180 for orkz they are now 180pts to 270 for orkz. In case you don't feel like doing the math, that means Marines are now about 50% more effective at killing Orkz than they were in 4th edition while going up in price 20% The orkz on the flipside are now less durable than they were in 4th but went up 50% in price. Games Workshop BaLaNcE


In all fairness, vanilla tacticals were considered an underwhelming choice even back in a day - people used min scouts. They still are. While Boyz were good. Underwhelming now. So...BaLaNcE indeed!


Well not really. Back then you were required to take a lot of troops choices and even then the Marine factions performed admirably. The big difference was that Marines would whittle down orkz at 24' range and then charge in to get that 2nd attack for charging, at that point it was a toss up of whether or not the Marines inflicted enough damage to finish the boyz off OR whether they would just tar pit them for the remainder of the game. Now? In all honesty? Marines are better point for point than Boyz or Beast Snaggaz at ranged combat by a LONG SHOT and in CC its actually fairly close call. the T5 really helps in CC but if you factor in the Morale issue the Marines are about even, especially if we compare them to the new Marine troops choice, Assault intercessors.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 19:16:11


Post by: koooaei


We might have different experience with 5th edition. I used to play a lot but it was my first edition, so, not claiming too much but my experience was that Marines took either min squads of tacticals or none at all. Can barely remember any reason to actually run 10 man squads for anyone other than grey hunters but they were no vanilla Marines.

Whereas it was a normal sight to see 30-mn boy squads.

But I think it's rather irrelevant what two old farts remember about the good ol' days.

Going back to where we currently are, I think my assumption of our codex strength is very close to the truth. From what batreps that I've seen and from different tourneys that allready allow new orks, including large ones, we see that buggies are great. Mellee is rather meh for the few exceptions of squigosaurs and some min units like storm boyz or bikers to clear something weak off the flank objectives.
Planes are also pretty good, however, I haven't seen much blastajet showings, which I believe can be good as their shooting is nuts, but, I guess, people don't see the need for them in 2k games where they'll be shot down t1 simply cause they're too shooty and too expensive.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 19:42:01


Post by: SemperMortis


 koooaei wrote:
We might have different experience with 5th edition. I used to play a lot but it was my first edition, so, not claiming too much but my experience was that Marines took either min squads of tacticals or none at all. Can barely remember any reason to actually run 10 man squads for anyone other than grey hunters but they were no vanilla Marines.

Whereas it was a normal sight to see 30-mn boy squads.

But I think it's rather irrelevant what two old farts remember about the good ol' days.

Going back to where we currently are, I think my assumption of our codex strength is very close to the truth. From what batreps that I've seen and from different tourneys that allready allow new orks, including large ones, we see that buggies are great. Mellee is rather meh for the few exceptions of squigosaurs and some min units like storm boyz or bikers to clear something weak off the flank objectives.
Planes are also pretty good, however, I haven't seen much blastajet showings, which I believe can be good as their shooting is nuts, but, I guess, people don't see the need for them in 2k games where they'll be shot down t1 simply cause they're too shooty and too expensive.


Haha, old farts is accurate, I think back then in 4th and 5th they would take the full squad and then combat squad to allow splitfire into different options. The flamer/melta would go forward to pop targets with the Sgt while the Lascannon/Missile launcher hung back to plink away all game long

But yeah, the here and now, Unless GW radically alters the ork codex, I don't see boyz in many tournament lists. What is really funny though is that GW is going to sell a metric fethload of buggies from 8th edition and a bunch of the new squig riders but they aren't going to sell many beast snagga infantry because they are functionally useless at their price point and with their morale issues.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 19:43:30


Post by: epronovost


SemperMortis wrote:
Why would you ever put 10 choppa boyz in a trukk right now? That is 160pts for what amounts to a turn 2 threat at best (assuming not trukk boyz) 10 boyz in CC work out to 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg vs a Marine. If we are talking about Trukk boyz, I would never use boyz for that, and instead would use meganobz or just regular nobz. A trukk is just flat out over priced at 70ppm for what little it does. A Dark Eldar raider is 25ppm more and its 4' faster, +1 WS +2 BS, +1 LD and the same save. More importantly it comes stock standard with a Dark Lance, a CCW AND a 5++ it carries 1 fewer model than a trukk as well. Give the Trukk a 10pt price cut, bring it to WS3 and either a wreckin ball or a grabbing klaw for free and maybe its on a close to even footing, but likely not.


Well, if I'm not mistaken, right now a flat 65 points, 10 boyz and a nob cost 90 points for at total of 155 pts. If they are Goff, and they should be if you want them to perform, they can be a real turn two threat. These little guys, in Waaagh!, deal 41 attacks. That would mean around 34 hits (counting the explode on 6 hits of Goff). These 34 hits would generate around 22 wounds and those 22 wounds would cause 11 damage for 5 dead Space Marines (probably 6 since bagging a wound off one with the Trukk big shoota and a couple of slugga is feasible). The retaliation will likely kill two boyz which should not be too problematic for moral while the Space Marines would probably suffer some. The next round, the orks would do less damage with the loss of one point of strength and after taking some casualties, but in essence you have basically won. Those 10 Marines cost more than the Trukk and the boyz and those Marines basically stand no chance to kill the Trukk before it can do its job and deliver the boyz in close combat without purchasing more powerful weapons (thus increasing their cost) if they even have the option.

This is a good setup. It does its job for less point and is reasonably easy to pull of and doesn't require stratagem to work. It's biggest problem isn't that it's not good, but that killing infantry is piss easy for Orks. We have a plethora of tools for killing those. You can certainly find a more point efficient way of dealing with Space Marine. You could probably do it with about as much ease and half the cost with a Dakkajet or a minimal size MANZ squad mounted in a Trukk or a couple of Killa Kanz or a single Warboss mounted on a very angry squig who wants to speak with your manager. That's not even a problem unique to boyz. Space Marines themselves suffer from that problem. Many, many troop choice suffer of that issue.

Hell, even the often declared "OP" Wych don't deal that much more damage than their number in Goff boyz (in fact they do a little less in Cult of Strife on the charge, but its easier to pull very long range charges). The difference of course is that the Raider is actually very dangerous while the Trukk is just a delivery system, but you do pay for that damage. I'm far more scared of Kabalite Warriors or Skitarii who are actually very powerful troops who can do better some tasks than anything else in their codex. You will also note that both Dark Eldar and Adeptus Mechanicus don't have nearly as much options as Orks or Space Marines when it comes to units thus much more chance to have a battlefield role open for their regular troops that isn't performed better by a more specialized unit in elite, fast attack or heavy support section. Let's be serious for a second. In high level tournaments, most troop choices are a tax and designated "action doing" unit. Then again, I'm not a high level player nor do I play in high level tournaments thus I don't give a crap about that sort of considerations. My only metric, is "does this thing can do what I want it to do" and to that answers, boyz still can. They just can't do the exact same thing in the exact same way they used too. I would even dare say they are more interesting now than in the days of "huge mobs that grab objectives and gets removed from the board".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Well when did you start playing? Because Necron Warriors started off as being strictly better than Marines in basically every way. T5, 2+Save, and a bunch of crazy abilities. The fluff for them has changed, and they've absolutely seen a degradation over time.


This to me is the key element. The fluff of the Necron has changed over the years so have their rules. Right now, I believe we will see them stabilize to certain point with Immortals being about as powerful as Space Marines (stronger at range, weaker in close combat and about as tough) with warriors being weaker than Space Marines, but pretty much at par when it comes to range damage output. If you change the fluff of a faction, you will have to change how they operate on the board to a certain point. If tomorrow GW decides that Wych Cults are no longer organizations composed of expert gladiatorial fighters who train obsessively to be the best duelists a combat drugged dark eldar can be and turns them into a sort of death cult composed of crazed killers obsessed with death (either their own or that of others), you would see their individual combat skill drop to reflect that change.

PS: I have been playing on and off, but following the hobby since early 3rd edition.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 20:18:10


Post by: SemperMortis


Spoiler:
epronovost wrote:

Well, if I'm not mistaken, right now a flat 65 points, 10 boyz and a nob cost 90 points for at total of 155 pts. If they are Goff, and they should be if you want them to perform, they can be a real turn two threat. These little guys, in Waaagh!, deal 41 attacks. That would mean around 34 hits (counting the explode on 6 hits of Goff). These 34 hits would generate around 22 wounds and those 22 wounds would cause 11 damage for 5 dead Space Marines (probably 6 since bagging a wound off one with the Trukk big shoota and a couple of slugga is feasible). The retaliation will likely kill two boyz which should not be too problematic for moral while the Space Marines would probably suffer some. The next round, the orks would do less damage with the loss of one point of strength and after taking some casualties, but in essence you have basically won. Those 10 Marines cost more than the Trukk and the boyz and those Marines basically stand no chance to kill the Trukk before it can do its job and deliver the boyz in close combat without purchasing more powerful weapons (thus increasing their cost) if they even have the option.

This is a good setup. It does its job for less point and is reasonably easy to pull of and doesn't require stratagem to work. It's biggest problem isn't that it's not good, but that killing infantry is piss easy for Orks. We have a plethora of tools for killing those. You can certainly find a more point efficient way of dealing with Space Marine. You could probably do it with about as much ease and half the cost with a Dakkajet or a minimal size MANZ squad mounted in a Trukk or a couple of Killa Kanz or a single Warboss mounted on a very angry squig who wants to speak with your manager. That's not even a problem unique to boyz. Space Marines themselves suffer from that problem. Many, many troop choice suffer of that issue.

Hell, even the often declared "OP" Wych don't deal that much more damage than their number in Goff boyz (in fact they do a little less in Cult of Strife on the charge, but its easier to pull very long range charges). The difference of course is that the Raider is actually very dangerous while the Trukk is just a delivery system, but you do pay for that damage. I'm far more scared of Kabalite Warriors or Skitarii who are actually very powerful troops who can do better some tasks than anything else in their codex. You will also note that both Dark Eldar and Adeptus Mechanicus don't have nearly as much options as Orks or Space Marines when it comes to units thus much more chance to have a battlefield role open for their regular troops that isn't performed better by a more specialized unit in elite, fast attack or heavy support section. Let's be serious for a second. In high level tournaments, most troop choices are a tax and designated "action doing" unit. Then again, I'm not a high level player nor do I play in high level tournaments thus I don't give a crap about that sort of considerations. My only metric, is "does this thing can do what I want it to do" and to that answers, boyz still can. They just can't do the exact same thing in the exact same way they used too. I would even dare say they are more interesting now than in the days of "huge mobs that grab objectives and gets removed from the board".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Well when did you start playing? Because Necron Warriors started off as being strictly better than Marines in basically every way. T5, 2+Save, and a bunch of crazy abilities. The fluff for them has changed, and they've absolutely seen a degradation over time.


This to me is the key element. The fluff of the Necron has changed over the years so have their rules. Right now, I believe we will see them stabilize to certain point with Immortals being about as powerful as Space Marines (stronger at range, weaker in close combat and about as tough) with warriors being weaker than Space Marines, but pretty much at par when it comes to range damage output. If you change the fluff of a faction, you will have to change how they operate on the board to a certain point. If tomorrow GW decides that Wych Cults are no longer organizations composed of expert gladiatorial fighters who train obsessively to be the best duelists a combat drugged dark eldar can be and turns them into a sort of death cult composed of crazed killers obsessed with death (either their own or that of others), you would see their individual combat skill drop to reflect that change.

PS: I have been playing on and off, but following the hobby since early 3rd edition.


The Trukk is flat 70pts now, which means 10 boyz in a trukk is 160pts. And yes, its a turn 2 threat, but when you look at real game scenarios, you will not be using it as a turn 2 threat unless you have a LOT of turn 2 threats to saturate the enemy because a trukk is rather fragile. The only way I see an enemy not fragging the trukk turn 1 is if you are leaning heavily into buggies and saturate that threat area so he has to prioritize the most important threats. But again, which would you rather have, 10 trukk boyz with an upgraded Nob in a trukk for 170pts or 2 buggies for 180pts.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 20:26:21


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 20:39:02


Post by: SemperMortis


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.


Because 10 is the minimum you can take and 11+ opens you up to the full effects of blast weapons. If I could field Boyz in units of 5 I would, I would take 2 units of 5 in each trukk instead of 1 of 10.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 20:53:17


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


SemperMortis wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.


Because 10 is the minimum you can take and 11+ opens you up to the full effects of blast weapons. If I could field Boyz in units of 5 I would, I would take 2 units of 5 in each trukk instead of 1 of 10.

But if they are in a trukk then they wouldn't be affected by blast weapons, no? When they do disembark chances are they have a good chance of charging an enemy squad where they would take a few casualties anyway. I'm not sure blast weapons are that much of a concern for mech boyz.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 21:06:19


Post by: epronovost


SemperMortis wrote:
[spoiler]The Trukk is flat 70pts now, which means 10 boyz in a trukk is 160pts. And yes, its a turn 2 threat, but when you look at real game scenarios, you will not be using it as a turn 2 threat unless you have a LOT of turn 2 threats to saturate the enemy because a trukk is rather fragile. The only way I see an enemy not fragging the trukk turn 1 is if you are leaning heavily into buggies and saturate that threat area so he has to prioritize the most important threats. But again, which would you rather have, 10 trukk boyz with an upgraded Nob in a trukk for 170pts or 2 buggies for 180pts.


Threat saturation has always been essential for orks to survive and since a 160 pts is still rather cheap you can have several of that sort and leaning heavily into buggies is certainly going to be the way to go (added bonus a bunch of buggies and troop mounted trukk with deathkilla wartrike actually looks pretty thematic). Of course, taking two buggies is tempting as they are certainly better, but those trukk mounted boyz do have objective secure and can bully almost any other troop squad of similar cost out of an objective, especially with support from said buggies. I think there might be some good synergy between the two units, at least at my level. There is probably more "cutting edge" lists out there, but I don't think it would be fair to call slugga boyz mounted on trukks as a bad or even mediocre. It's just that there is even better stuff out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.


Because 10 is the minimum you can take and 11+ opens you up to the full effects of blast weapons. If I could field Boyz in units of 5 I would, I would take 2 units of 5 in each trukk instead of 1 of 10.

But if they are in a trukk then they wouldn't be affected by blast weapons, no? When they do disembark chances are they have a good chance of charging an enemy squad where they would take a few casualties anyway. I'm not sure blast weapons are that much of a concern for mech boyz.


That's probably true, but we were making a 1 to 1 ratio comparison in most of the thread. I'm not sure that paying 18 points for 2 extra boyz is going to improve the mob at what it's supposed to do (clean an enemy unit off an objective or something similar to it) so it might be some wasted points there and you might want to keep the open space for a character instead.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 21:19:42


Post by: SemperMortis


epronovost wrote:


Threat saturation has always been essential for orks to survive and since a 160 pts is still rather cheap you can have several of that sort and leaning heavily into buggies is certainly going to be the way to go (added bonus a bunch of buggies and troop mounted trukk with deathkilla wartrike actually looks pretty thematic). Of course, taking two buggies is tempting as they are certainly better, but those trukk mounted boyz do have objective secure and can bully almost any other troop squad of similar cost out of an objective, especially with support from said buggies. I think there might be some good synergy between the two units, at least at my level.


Correct about target saturation. But Objective secure isn't the end all be all. It only matters when facing off against another person who didn't bring many troops and only then based on numbers. I really feel like people overvalue objective secure in that regard. As far as Bully similar troops....no.

5 assault intercessors are 95pts, or about the same as 10 boyz. Those assault intercessors have 18' pistols because of course they do, with AP-1. In CC they each have 4 attacks in the 1st round and the sgt has 5. if they get to fight first they get 21 attacks 14 hits, 5ish wounds for 5 dead Orkz. If the orkz swing first they get 27 attacks, 18 hits and 9 wounds for 3dmg or 1.5 dead Marines the NOb swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds and about .6dmg. At absolute best you kill 2 Marines, so they lost 40% compared to the Orkz losing 50% and then in morale probably another 2.



Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 21:26:14


Post by: Grimskul


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.


Because 10 is the minimum you can take and 11+ opens you up to the full effects of blast weapons. If I could field Boyz in units of 5 I would, I would take 2 units of 5 in each trukk instead of 1 of 10.

But if they are in a trukk then they wouldn't be affected by blast weapons, no? When they do disembark chances are they have a good chance of charging an enemy squad where they would take a few casualties anyway. I'm not sure blast weapons are that much of a concern for mech boyz.


I think it's also the fact that there isn't any real incentive to max out the unit. The two boyz extra attacks won't make or break the unit and as ablative wounds they're not cost efficient either.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 21:34:33


Post by: epronovost


SemperMortis wrote:
5 assault intercessors are 95pts, or about the same as 10 boyz. Those assault intercessors have 18' pistols because of course they do, with AP-1. In CC they each have 4 attacks in the 1st round and the sgt has 5. if they get to fight first they get 21 attacks 14 hits, 5ish wounds for 5 dead Orkz. If the orkz swing first they get 27 attacks, 18 hits and 9 wounds for 3dmg or 1.5 dead Marines the NOb swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds and about .6dmg. At absolute best you kill 2 Marines, so they lost 40% compared to the Orkz losing 50% and then in morale probably another 2.



That's why I think the Goff Klan allegiance is really important for small units of boyz. Those extra hits on 6 and the extra point of strength on the charge is really useful to bring the hurt a bit further, especially with Waaagh! which is also super important (though buggies would severely miss the extra point of AP, though I'm not sure if they need it all that much). Plus, an old ork rule always apply, never fight the enemies best close combat specialists with yours; shoot the choppy, choppy the shooty whenever possible.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 22:47:10


Post by: Spoletta


SemperMortis wrote:
epronovost wrote:


Threat saturation has always been essential for orks to survive and since a 160 pts is still rather cheap you can have several of that sort and leaning heavily into buggies is certainly going to be the way to go (added bonus a bunch of buggies and troop mounted trukk with deathkilla wartrike actually looks pretty thematic). Of course, taking two buggies is tempting as they are certainly better, but those trukk mounted boyz do have objective secure and can bully almost any other troop squad of similar cost out of an objective, especially with support from said buggies. I think there might be some good synergy between the two units, at least at my level.


Correct about target saturation. But Objective secure isn't the end all be all. It only matters when facing off against another person who didn't bring many troops and only then based on numbers. I really feel like people overvalue objective secure in that regard. As far as Bully similar troops....no.

5 assault intercessors are 95pts, or about the same as 10 boyz. Those assault intercessors have 18' pistols because of course they do, with AP-1. In CC they each have 4 attacks in the 1st round and the sgt has 5. if they get to fight first they get 21 attacks 14 hits, 5ish wounds for 5 dead Orkz. If the orkz swing first they get 27 attacks, 18 hits and 9 wounds for 3dmg or 1.5 dead Marines the NOb swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds and about .6dmg. At absolute best you kill 2 Marines, so they lost 40% compared to the Orkz losing 50% and then in morale probably another 2.



Your math is off.
9 orks attack 27 times for a total of 4.5 damage (they have AP-1). Same for Nob which inflicts 0,87 damage. A total of 5.3 damage.
The intercessors inflict 4.57 damage on the orks, so the orks are actually a bit better than the intercessors while costing a bit less.
They surely don't bully them, but they are ahead.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 23:19:00


Post by: Afrodactyl


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.


Boys would be great at 5 models. Morale would basically be negligible, it's still obsec, etc.

If boys could be taken in mobs of five it would mean you could get two obsec units and two Klaw nobs per trukk that don't really have to worry so much about blast.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/10 23:24:31


Post by: epronovost


 Afrodactyl wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.


Boys would be great at 5 models. Morale would basically be negligible, it's still obsec, etc.

If boys could be taken in mobs of five it would mean you could get two obsec units and two Klaw nobs per trukk that don't really have to worry so much about blast.


That would indeed by awesome.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/11 03:09:48


Post by: Insectum7


epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well when did you start playing? Because Necron Warriors started off as being strictly better than Marines in basically every way. T5, 2+Save, and a bunch of crazy abilities. The fluff for them has changed, and they've absolutely seen a degradation over time.


This to me is the key element. The fluff of the Necron has changed over the years so have their rules . . .
Right, well . . Fer whatever reason, the degradation is real and I hate it. Also Marines have just gotten bigger and bigger at the same time, queue Heavy Intercessors. *sigh*


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/11 04:11:28


Post by: koooaei


epronovost wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
5 assault intercessors are 95pts, or about the same as 10 boyz. Those assault intercessors have 18' pistols because of course they do, with AP-1. In CC they each have 4 attacks in the 1st round and the sgt has 5. if they get to fight first they get 21 attacks 14 hits, 5ish wounds for 5 dead Orkz. If the orkz swing first they get 27 attacks, 18 hits and 9 wounds for 3dmg or 1.5 dead Marines the NOb swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds and about .6dmg. At absolute best you kill 2 Marines, so they lost 40% compared to the Orkz losing 50% and then in morale probably another 2.



That's why I think the Goff Klan allegiance is really important for small units of boyz. Those extra hits on 6 and the extra point of strength on the charge is really useful to bring the hurt a bit further, especially with Waaagh! which is also super important (though buggies would severely miss the extra point of AP, though I'm not sure if they need it all that much). Plus, an old ork rule always apply, never fight the enemies best close combat specialists with yours; shoot the choppy, choppy the shooty whenever possible.


Taking goffs means you forego the trukkboy subculture - basically, the only reason for boyz to be run in trucks. Otherwise, just take 11 ppm burnas or 10 ppm kommandoes with 3+ cover save, +1 to wound and a 5pt cheaper klaw. And this way you could indeed run 2*5.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/11 12:05:59


Post by: Pickled_egg


GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/11 12:20:44


Post by: Blackie


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Why do people keep saying 10 boyz in a trukk anyway? The max capacity is 12 models, 6 in the case of MANs or stormboyz.


I take 10 because I consider them a tax unit with some purpose, and two extra bodies don't make any significant difference. I also prefer to have units cost round numbers, a 11th boyz is likely a 10ppm model and 12 boyz cost +20ppm unless there's some other unit with an odd cost, which is not very common in 9th edition as nothing costs less than 5 points now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 koooaei wrote:


Taking goffs means you forego the trukkboy subculture - basically, the only reason for boyz to be run in trucks. Otherwise, just take 11 ppm burnas or 10 ppm kommandoes with 3+ cover save, +1 to wound and a 5pt cheaper klaw. And this way you could indeed run 2*5.


I also make them goffs because I need specialists mobs for other units and I have to field a tax troop. I prefer 10 trukk goffs boyz than 10 boyz on foot or 10 grots or to give up a few more CPs to avoid troops at all.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/11 14:04:38


Post by: Jidmah


Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/11 14:17:01


Post by: Grimskul


 Jidmah wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.


Yup, nothing amuses me more than seeing fairweather fans assume Orks play like Marines/Eldar with re-roll support and then flounder horribly because they went for a combined arms build rather than a proper Ork themed skew list.

Also, I thought GW's store was still having production issues when it comes to stock due to the pandemic, not at all surprising that they'd sell out of the hot stuff now that the codex has been "released".


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/11 16:11:41


Post by: koooaei


Buggy spam lists are much easier to "drive" than a green tide, so, currently, players from other factions can have an easier learning curve.

We're much closer to tau than to orks from previous editions ATM.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/11 16:42:57


Post by: Voss


 Jidmah wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.


Well, the stock issues are relatively recent. I can't think of a time from the 90s to about 2015 or so where I couldn't just walk into a store (or online seller) and pick up whatever. [Other than indie stores post 2010 or so that were deliberately not stocking the full range, and I can't really blame them for that]


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/11 17:45:05


Post by: epronovost


Voss wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.


Well, the stock issues are relatively recent. I can't think of a time from the 90s to about 2015 or so where I couldn't just walk into a store (or online seller) and pick up whatever. [Other than indie stores post 2010 or so that were deliberately not stocking the full range, and I can't really blame them for that]


The game is also much, much more popular than it used to. GW sells about twice more products than it did like 8 years ago.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/11 20:04:24


Post by: Jidmah


Voss wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.


Well, the stock issues are relatively recent. I can't think of a time from the 90s to about 2015 or so where I couldn't just walk into a store (or online seller) and pick up whatever. [Other than indie stores post 2010 or so that were deliberately not stocking the full range, and I can't really blame them for that]


I started shortly after 5th launched and spectated a few games of 4th before deciding to jump in. I'm fairly sure that getting manticores and basilisk was a major problem back then, and KFF big meks were sold out at every store when I was trying to get one (both GW and FLGS), so I bought mine off ebay. It didn't happen as often as it does now because there were less players, but it did happen.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/11 20:33:02


Post by: Tyel


Don't know about GW Stores, but my FLGS tends to see their entire catalogue of [New Codex Faction] disappear for 3 months until it recovers. I'd say its been noticeably that way since... at least the GSC 2nd wave. So 2.5ish years?

So for example Dark Eldar are now just about recovering to "reasonably available" after having being impossible to get hold of.

Orks don't look too bad outside the obvious power units mentioned - which I suspect relates in part to the fact more casual players are still at "wha?" on a codex most people don't have.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/11 20:55:06


Post by: Blackie


 Jidmah wrote:


I started shortly after 5th launched and spectated a few games of 4th before deciding to jump in. I'm fairly sure that getting manticores and basilisk was a major problem back then, and KFF big meks were sold out at every store when I was trying to get one (both GW and FLGS), so I bought mine off ebay. It didn't happen as often as it does now because there were less players, but it did happen.


Big mek with KFF in that period was constantly out of stock even here, I perfectly remember that, in fact I remember several players proxying it everytime, including me as I couldn't buy the actual model and I had very low modelling skills at that time, I couldn't convert anything properly. Lots of people played orks at the beginning of 5th, it was one of the most popular armies.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 10:13:34


Post by: vipoid


 the_scotsman wrote:
Karol wrote:
Wych or succubi are glass only if someone runs them on foot. And both those units trade up.

Boys don't trade up.


Exactly, a pathetic, lowly, pitiful, weak ork boy (9ppm, 3A S4 AP-1 D1) could never compare to a busted, broken, super OP, way stronger wych (10ppm, 4A S3 AP-1 D1) in terms of trading up for their points cost.

Besides, Wyches are so much faster - their transport can move 12", dump them out, then they can advance and charge turn 1 and effortlessly get into melee with a +1A buff.

No, wait, is that wyches that do that?


But you're forgetting, scotsman, Boyz are big and muscular whereas Wyches are small and weedy. A Wych can trade up by killing a big, bulky guardsman whereas Ork Boyz have to go after Terminators if they want to trade up to something properly bigger than they are.


 Mr. Grey wrote:
It bothers me quite a bit that shoota boyz are now just objectively so much worse than slugga choppa, particularly since it's not like their shootas have any AP on them


This sounds like the exact same problem Kabalites have, compared with Wyches or Wracks.

It's sounding like DE and Orks might have more in common than you'd think.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 10:36:35


Post by: Blackie


 vipoid wrote:


This sounds like the exact same problem Kabalites have, compared with Wyches or Wracks.

It's sounding like DE and Orks might have more in common than you'd think.


Kabalites are much better than shoota boyz since with higher BS they actually do something, and can make good use of a special weapon. They can also have min squads of five which are dirt cheap. Trueborns are a fantastic unit, boyz upgraded with specialists mobs remain mediocre.

Wracks are very close to ork choppa boyz in stats.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 11:35:41


Post by: Jidmah


 vipoid wrote:
 Mr. Grey wrote:
It bothers me quite a bit that shoota boyz are now just objectively so much worse than slugga choppa, particularly since it's not like their shootas have any AP on them


This sounds like the exact same problem Kabalites have, compared with Wyches or Wracks.

It's sounding like DE and Orks might have more in common than you'd think.


I know you are joking, but the success of orks and DE always has been closely interveined with each other. The two armies share many similarities like light open topped vehicles, reliance on both melee and shooting and low durability infantry. When the core game rules favored one they always favored the other as well, and when the core game screwed over one, the other wasn't doing so hot either. Pretty much any time drukhari were a successful army, so were orks.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 11:43:08


Post by: tneva82


Lammia wrote:
Didn't KFFs get better?

Sisters got a bunch of side grades and nerfs to go with a few good buffs. I'm not going to go through them point by point, that's too much to do again. But it's normal.


Depends on what you define better.

It's easier to be UNDER the effect yes.

But it went from 5++ to 6++. Aka half the save effect.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 11:46:36


Post by: Jidmah


No, KFF didn't get better, and that does not depend on your definition.

Unless your definition of "better" is "worse", of course, but then I'd kindly ask you to feth off


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 12:42:56


Post by: koooaei


Kff is arguable. Almost army-wide 5++ for a turn can change the course if a game - especially if you go 2d.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 13:50:51


Post by: the_scotsman


kff is almost undeniably worse than before, but it remains a reasonable option that you may take in some circumstances IMO.

I think what people aren't really realizing about orks is that 9th ed, at least, the fighting part of the game, is AT MAX 2 turns. Whether that's turn 1 and turn 2 or turn 2 and turn 3 is largely up to the player (since boards can be totally stacked with LOS blocking terrain allowing someone to near-completely hide their army, and certain armies like admech have he ability to utterly turtle up and prevent damage for a turn) but basically 'the battle' of 40k comes down to two turns now.

so the ability to drop an army-wide 5++ coupled with the stratagem that gives a whole swathe of units -1 to hit coupled with Ramshackle can make Ork Vehicles just as turtley as the rest of the turtle club (Drukhari and Admech and DW and such) - for one turn only, but if you're trying to execute a "Turn 2 and turn 3" army, that's enough.

It certainly seems to be enough for Drukhari, anyway. "hey what's up im gonna hide my whole army in a big wall of cheap T6 5++ vehicles and then all my glass cannon stuff is gonna jump out turn 2 and wreck your shop" basically obliterated the existing heavy infantry meta.

The fact that orks' 5++ is only one turn is kind of...irrelevant tbh. It only has to be one turn.The main problem with it in my eyes is board position. God i owuld kill for a KFF I could actually get midboard reliably.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 13:56:40


Post by: Daedalus81


 the_scotsman wrote:
kff is almost undeniably worse than before, but it remains a reasonable option that you may take in some circumstances IMO.

I think what people aren't really realizing about orks is that 9th ed, at least, the fighting part of the game, is AT MAX 2 turns. Whether that's turn 1 and turn 2 or turn 2 and turn 3 is largely up to the player (since boards can be totally stacked with LOS blocking terrain allowing someone to near-completely hide their army, and certain armies like admech have he ability to utterly turtle up and prevent damage for a turn) but basically 'the battle' of 40k comes down to two turns now.

so the ability to drop an army-wide 5++ coupled with the stratagem that gives a whole swathe of units -1 to hit coupled with Ramshackle can make Ork Vehicles just as turtley as the rest of the turtle club (Drukhari and Admech and DW and such) - for one turn only, but if you're trying to execute a "Turn 2 and turn 3" army, that's enough.

It certainly seems to be enough for Drukhari, anyway. "hey what's up im gonna hide my whole army in a big wall of cheap T6 5++ vehicles and then all my glass cannon stuff is gonna jump out turn 2 and wreck your shop" basically obliterated the existing heavy infantry meta.

The fact that orks' 5++ is only one turn is kind of...irrelevant tbh. It only has to be one turn.The main problem with it in my eyes is board position. God i owuld kill for a KFF I could actually get midboard reliably.


A++


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 15:14:35


Post by: Tycho


 Jidmah wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.


Are YOU new here? This just plain isn't true.

I see you mentioned starting just after 5th. That probably explains it. The supply issues are absolutely new (for reasons that should be pretty obvious), and there actually was a time when you could see ... gasp .... non citadel and non-marauder miniatures on the pages of White Dwarf. I think most of it largely changed around the time 'ard boyz died, but there was a time when you could bring kit-bashed models to GW events as long as a majority of the model (there was an actual percent given but I don't recall what) was still mostly GW.

In fact in second and third ed, you could bring Armorcast to tournaments (as long as the rules were permitted).

The no non-GW models is more recent than you might think.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 15:27:10


Post by: catbarf


Tycho wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.


Are YOU new here? This just plain isn't true.

I see you mentioned starting just after 5th. That probably explains it. The supply issues are absolutely new (for reasons that should be pretty obvious), and there actually was a time when you could see ... gasp .... non citadel and non-marauder miniatures on the pages of White Dwarf. I think most of it largely changed around the time 'ard boyz died, but there was a time when you could bring kit-bashed models to GW events as long as a majority of the model (there was an actual percent given but I don't recall what) was still mostly GW.

In fact in second and third ed, you could bring Armorcast to tournaments (as long as the rules were permitted).

The no non-GW models is more recent than you might think.


I thought they were talking about stock issues being nothing new.

Also Armorcast was licensed, official, GW-approved product.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 16:37:20


Post by: Jidmah


Tycho wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.


Are YOU new here? This just plain isn't true.

I see you mentioned starting just after 5th. That probably explains it. The supply issues are absolutely new (for reasons that should be pretty obvious), and there actually was a time when you could see ... gasp .... non citadel and non-marauder miniatures on the pages of White Dwarf. I think most of it largely changed around the time 'ard boyz died, but there was a time when you could bring kit-bashed models to GW events as long as a majority of the model (there was an actual percent given but I don't recall what) was still mostly GW.

In fact in second and third ed, you could bring Armorcast to tournaments (as long as the rules were permitted).

The no non-GW models is more recent than you might think.


This is the main problem with dakka. People thinking that stuff that happened in 5th edition is still new and not over a decade ago.
3rd edition ended 2004. 17 years ago. Anything that happened then is essentially ancient history now.


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 19:06:04


Post by: Tyel


I'm not quite sure how to put it into words, but I think one of the major issues GW had circa 2014-15 when things started to fall apart was players going "remember when [insert reference 1998 as if it was yesterday here]" - while X-Wing could just go "2012 release goes brrr".


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/12 19:26:14


Post by: Tycho


 Jidmah wrote:
Tycho wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.


Are YOU new here? This just plain isn't true.

I see you mentioned starting just after 5th. That probably explains it. The supply issues are absolutely new (for reasons that should be pretty obvious), and there actually was a time when you could see ... gasp .... non citadel and non-marauder miniatures on the pages of White Dwarf. I think most of it largely changed around the time 'ard boyz died, but there was a time when you could bring kit-bashed models to GW events as long as a majority of the model (there was an actual percent given but I don't recall what) was still mostly GW.

In fact in second and third ed, you could bring Armorcast to tournaments (as long as the rules were permitted).

The no non-GW models is more recent than you might think.


This is the main problem with dakka. People thinking that stuff that happened in 5th edition is still new and not over a decade ago.
3rd edition ended 2004. 17 years ago. Anything that happened then is essentially ancient history now.


Or maybe it's that people think "history" started when they joined in? You literally said "it's always been like this". There was a time - a long time - when you actually could bring non-GW miniatures to a GW store or sponsored event ...


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/13 00:32:42


Post by: SemperMortis


Tycho wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Tycho wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.


Are YOU new here? This just plain isn't true.

I see you mentioned starting just after 5th. That probably explains it. The supply issues are absolutely new (for reasons that should be pretty obvious), and there actually was a time when you could see ... gasp .... non citadel and non-marauder miniatures on the pages of White Dwarf. I think most of it largely changed around the time 'ard boyz died, but there was a time when you could bring kit-bashed models to GW events as long as a majority of the model (there was an actual percent given but I don't recall what) was still mostly GW.

In fact in second and third ed, you could bring Armorcast to tournaments (as long as the rules were permitted).

The no non-GW models is more recent than you might think.


This is the main problem with dakka. People thinking that stuff that happened in 5th edition is still new and not over a decade ago.
3rd edition ended 2004. 17 years ago. Anything that happened then is essentially ancient history now.


Or maybe it's that people think "history" started when they joined in? You literally said "it's always been like this". There was a time - a long time - when you actually could bring non-GW miniatures to a GW store or sponsored event ...


....I started in the 90s....i distinctly remember the GW staff telling people to FETH OFF out of their store for bringing in non-GW models.

 Jidmah wrote:
Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


Uhm... are you new here? Because there was never a time in 40k when it wasn't like this.

Don't worry about the squigbuggies and planes, there will be plenty on ebay when people find out that the can't just bandwagon to orks and win games like they do with half the other armies.


Possibly the only good thing Reece and the other GW Shills did for the ork community, made meta gamers buy ork stuff and then dump it quickly when they realized it wasn't the "I WIN" army


Orks 9th Edition, A nerf to the player rather than the army. @ 2021/08/15 15:42:54


Post by: Mr. Grey


Pickled_egg wrote:
GW : You can't use 3rd party miniatures in our games
Also GW : We have no stock of Rukkatrukk squigbuggies, any of the Ork Aircraft and no release date for the warboss on squigosaur, Kill rig etc etc etc


You can use whatever the hell you want to in your home games and in 99% of your other games unless you're playing at Warhammer World, possibly in a GW store, or at one of the 4(?) official sanctioned GW tournaments that's happening this year. Aside from that, nobody gives a crap.

And yes, those things are currently sold out because they're pretty powerful in the new codex. As for upcoming releases... they're coming. Be patient.