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Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 16:44:39


Post by: lord marcus


https://twitter.com/lagoon83/status/1419634369464082434?s=07&fbclid=IwAR0l2YDwklJGcWET6eKmwL4wHL-phus4qXY-e-Cxg57q8fCl9E5d55wX4Wk

I thought the community might find this twitter thread from James Hewitt, former rules writer for GW, interesting to discuss.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 16:48:05


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


The fact that they were paying him a sub-living wage while he delivered blockbuster game after blockbuster game infuriates me. He is a household name in gaming, and they treated him like some school-assembly clown they could shove in a van. One can only imagine how they treat less senior team members.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 16:58:21


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Well that explains a frightening amount


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:05:57


Post by: tneva82


Not surprising. It's been public secret games designers have among lowest salary in gw.

Since gw needs them just be yes man doing marketing ploys no need to pay much. If one leaves another to replace. Quality isn't needed


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:06:01


Post by: privateer4hire


Kinda surprised that they don’t have better NDA in place to prevent this type of information from surfacing. And then I remember that it probably won’t change a single person’s buying plans.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:07:14


Post by: lord marcus


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Well that explains a frightening amount


Doesn't it though? Treating people who literally write the games that make you money like min wage slaves.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:10:55


Post by: Gert


Dreams shattered because the company can't be bothered to pay a decent wage.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:13:13


Post by: privateer4hire


That sucks! I can’t believe they pay so poorly…

Ooooooh! Did you see the new Kill Team teaser?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:20:24


Post by: kodos


at least we now know that GW does not care how good the rules are the designers make, just that they do it fast and for cheap

of course the designers put no afford on the rules, the just make what they get paid for (gak)


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:28:33


Post by: VBS


This guy helped them make millions with the BB rerelease. "If you like what you do, you won't care about money", "do what you love and you won't work ever again, who cares about money" That is all fine.... after you are living decently.

I remember applying a few years ago (it was already the "new and awesome gw") to a position at their HQ. Pay was very similar to what I had in a less demanding job in a less expensive country, and I should have had to relocate. No way that was going to happen.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:43:48


Post by: Irkjoe


I am wary of posts like this. "I love gw product, but they mistreated me, and I'm heart broken that I have to do this.... Donate to my gofundme"


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:47:37


Post by: beast_gts


 Irkjoe wrote:
I am wary of posts like this. "I love gw product, but they mistreated me, and I'm heart broken that I have to do this.... Donate to my gofundme"
He didn't start the thread - he was replying to this post.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:48:46


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


For future chat, probably worth nothing the whole “you don’t discuss your wage” thing is pretty common in the U.K.

I’ve no idea if there’s a legal or purely cultural background there, but it is what it is.

I am surprised to hear how comparatively little he earned though.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:55:26


Post by: kodos


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ve no idea if there’s a legal or purely cultural background there, but it is what it is.

you don't talk open about your wage here either but as we have collective agreements you more or less know what everyone else gets at minimum in the specific positions

but you have to add either the wage itself or the collective agreements class on adverts, so net telling people for "reasons" is not possible (and it feels strange if a company don't want to do it)


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:56:15


Post by: Rihgu


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For future chat, probably worth nothing the whole “you don’t discuss your wage” thing is pretty common in the U.K.

I’ve no idea if there’s a legal or purely cultural background there, but it is what it is.

I am surprised to hear how comparatively little he earned though.


It's also common in the US, especially among the older folk. It's a method of controlling/abusing workers, and needs to change.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:57:21


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Irkjoe wrote:
I am wary of posts like this. "I love gw product, but they mistreated me, and I'm heart broken that I have to do this.... Donate to my gofundme"


Perhaps I missed something, but the only reference to gofundme I saw was a joke about him needing to raise legal funds if he breached an NDA with his posts.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 17:59:53


Post by: privateer4hire


It’s common in the US too. Can’t have folks getting worked up about how much that nonproductive so and so is making.

But seriously, why pay more if people will take it? Clearly the customer base will reward the company pretty much whatever they do.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 18:01:05


Post by: Jeremy's Heroes


Jesus, on that sort of salary he was getting less than I made bartending as an 18 year old in London.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 18:01:21


Post by: beast_gts


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
I am wary of posts like this. "I love gw product, but they mistreated me, and I'm heart broken that I have to do this.... Donate to my gofundme"


Perhaps I missed something, but the only reference to gofundme I saw was a joke about him needing to raise legal funds if he breached an NDA with his posts.
He posted a link to the Game Design Seminars he runs, as well as his ko-fi link.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 18:06:17


Post by: stratigo


 privateer4hire wrote:
Kinda surprised that they don’t have better NDA in place to prevent this type of information from surfacing. And then I remember that it probably won’t change a single person’s buying plans.


It is almost never legal to force a person to conceal their salary.

But companies certainly spend a lot of time making you think it is legal to force that and you are a bad person for thinking about getting more.



I find this darkly amusing especially because ninthmusketeer got on my ass on TGA about how I couldn't possibly know the sort of compensation GW writers got for their work and that my complaints were totally way too far when I said GW staff should be better compensated and have more control in the IP they create for the company



Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 18:14:28


Post by: kodos


beast_gts wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
I am wary of posts like this. "I love gw product, but they mistreated me, and I'm heart broken that I have to do this.... Donate to my gofundme"


Perhaps I missed something, but the only reference to gofundme I saw was a joke about him needing to raise legal funds if he breached an NDA with his posts.
He posted a link to the Game Design Seminars he runs, as well as his ko-fi link.

but not as answer to the original question but as regular tweet

which is kind of legit to advertise his stuff in his twitter account


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 18:25:29


Post by: Irkjoe


I'm just saying that becoming a victim or causing a controversy followed by shilling is a tried and true tactic. I don't doubt that gw treats their employees poorly, that there's more to the story, and that this is a cash grab.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 18:32:24


Post by: Gert


I mean I can't find any links to this person's stuff in that thread so not sure how it's a cash grab chief.
I also think that it's kind of important for people to know what they're getting into when applying for a job so this kind of thing has definitely had me reassessing some decisions I was planning to make in the future.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 18:56:24


Post by: lord marcus


 Irkjoe wrote:
I'm just saying that becoming a victim or causing a controversy followed by shilling is a tried and true tactic. I don't doubt that gw treats their employees poorly, that there's more to the story, and that this is a cash grab.


The man is a well-respected designer who was paid pennies. Having known and spoken to him on quite a few occasions I doubt he's lying and I doubt there's more to the story about how much he was getting paid.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 18:57:40


Post by: stratigo


 Irkjoe wrote:
I'm just saying that becoming a victim or causing a controversy followed by shilling is a tried and true tactic. I don't doubt that gw treats their employees poorly, that there's more to the story, and that this is a cash grab.



"You are only allowed to have a moral issue with low pay if you are literally the budha having renounced all mortal things and are currently starving to death next to the 7-11 dumpster in a zenlike state"


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 19:02:38


Post by: Arbitrator


It's not terribly surprising. Game design isn't really a career where there's an overabundance of open positions you can move into, coupled with there no doubt being plenty of eager- nay, fanatical would-be employees who'd happily crawl over your metaphorical corpse for a job "designing the games they loved." The video game industry in particular is propped up by the latter, though at least your future career prospects are a bit more open than in tabletop rules writing.

It's even less surprising to see it already being dismissed by people here.

Another one of his Tweets also talks about how not a lot actually changed internally between the Kirby and Rountree years, most of the execs were the same afterall. No surprise there.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 19:14:34


Post by: PondaNagura


Yeesh, that's bad considering the reward (for the company) vs responsibilities of the position...from GW I was expecting minimum 30/40k? (no pun)
 Gert wrote:
I also think that it's kind of important for people to know what they're getting into when applying for a job so this kind of thing has definitely had me reassessing some decisions I was planning to make in the future.

Truth. I had similar reservations about ever applying to FFG when it was revealed how little contract artists were paid per asset.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 19:49:46


Post by: privateer4hire


The more they pay their staff, the less they have to pay shareholders. They have 32.7 million shares currently on the books. Do you have any idea how much 1000 gbp extra a year in an employee salary would detract from the dividends paid out?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 19:56:49


Post by: Nurglitch


If you love what you do, get paid first, and then do what you love as a hobby. Because if you do it for work you'll end up hating it.

Incidentally this makes me very happy all my applications to work on the GW Design team were met with a reply stating they only considered local candidates for the positions.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:01:19


Post by: The Red Hobbit


That is a shockingly low amount of money to pay someone who put together games that generated enormous amounts of money.

Shows them as very incompetent from a business sense. They had someone putting out blockbuster after blockbuster they could have given him a modest compensation and he may have been happy to work there another 20 years. Instead they underpay top talent. Bizarre.

But hey the Company prints money no matter what they do, there is no forcing function to make them behave ethically or even smartly in this case.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:01:31


Post by: Cronch


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
For future chat, probably worth nothing the whole “you don’t discuss your wage” thing is pretty common in the U.K.

I’ve no idea if there’s a legal or purely cultural background there, but it is what it is.

I am surprised to hear how comparatively little he earned though.

Unless it's specifically written in the contract, I believe it's illegal to stop you from talking about your salary.
And you should. Talk about it I mean. How else will you find out you're severely underpaid?

Anyway, not surprised, they're a corporation and corporations always treat the creatives like trash.
I suppose at least there isn't an ongoing sexual harassment/suicide suit against GW unlike some other gaming companies so there's that.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:05:35


Post by: lagoon83


 privateer4hire wrote:
Kinda surprised that they don’t have better NDA in place to prevent this type of information from surfacing. And then I remember that it probably won’t change a single person’s buying plans.


Yeah, didn't think of that until after the fact. Ho hum! Bring it on.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:05:39


Post by: privateer4hire


Your point about printing money is spot on. They have continued to make a killing paying peanuts. They would be stupid to change, wouldn’t they?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:07:04


Post by: Valander


I'm not surprised, honestly, for a multitude of reasons. Firstly, the tabletop game industry isn't exactly among the great paying jobs out there; there are many, many stories of many companies paying minimum wages or just above them. Large companies (not sure how many employees GW really has, but their revenues are pretty big for the tabletop game industry) always, always try to pay bare minimum that they can for non-executive positions. And, when you also have a pretty big fanbase of folks who see making games as a "dream job," you can get away with it even more.

Also, while GW does publish rules, they've long considered them ancillary to their core business, which is model kits. And, with reason; the volume and margin on models is just better than it ever could be with rule books.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:07:39


Post by: The Red Hobbit


It's just so very short sighted. If they were unethical but smart they could reward top talent with a high salary and let everyone make peanuts, but they couldn't even manage that.

Not advocating for that of course, it's saddening when I hear some of my friends who went into video games and get paid peanuts and get rewarded with passion, it's just surprising how GW internal management can't even be competent at being unethical.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:21:11


Post by: Nurglitch


It's less about being ethical than rewarding the people that bring in the money. Typically the people that bring money into a company, the salesmen, are the ones with the highest compensation, and all the back-end people who produce the product (plus administration, etc) are paid the least Management can pay and still meet quotas.

And you can see why, because paying a salesman who brings in many times his salary in sales is worth more in salary to a company than the more easily replaceable guy overseeing production, or the likewise more easily replaceable guy in marketing.

Of course, as I understand it GW's frontline sales force is also paid peanuts.

There's the connected issue of executive compensation where they make enough that they can hire lawyers to negotiate a compensation package rather than just accepting whatever the hiring company offers, usually with the understanding that their management is even more critical to the company's bottom line than even the salesmen they'll hire/oversee. Which is kind of funny from the perspective of production as typically the executive management, directors and up, can't find their own bums without an assistant's help.

Where game rules aren't exactly sales, and seem to be closer to a form of marketing than production, it's not terribly surprising to see it poorly compensated.

I mean, when was the last time you bought a GW game because of the rules? I'd be more interested in seeing the compensation of the sculptors/factory-workers as they're more directly in line with what people are actually buying, which is the models (although the occasional book, artbook, novel, measuring tape, and other hobby-related gash makes sense where otherwise they're leaving money on the table).

I think the game design, in terms of game products, is the very tip of the iceberg with all the business, product design, etc going on unseen and typically commented on.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:24:34


Post by: The Red Hobbit


I can say for certain there are products I would explicitly avoid because of bad rules, so I'd say rules play a deciding factor in the product they are pushing out.

While there is a large contingent of the 40k community who enjoy the hobby aspects and not the game aspects, the ones who enjoy decent rules is rather sizable.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:28:21


Post by: lagoon83


 Irkjoe wrote:
I am wary of posts like this. "I love gw product, but they mistreated me, and I'm heart broken that I have to do this.... Donate to my gofundme"


Yeah, this wasn't what I was going for at all. I only mentioned my ko-fi because, well, I'd be silly not to. If it's any consolation to you, no one's used it at all


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:29:38


Post by: Gene St. Ealer




That one is interesting but I hesitate to read too much into it. It's very unfortunate that she dealt with the situation above, and I hope GW improves their internal processes. But also, every company ever seems to have dysfunction like this; I don't think it's surprising or damning to hear that about GW. Not every company pays peanuts though, so I am surprised to hear that.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:30:02


Post by: lagoon83


 Irkjoe wrote:
I'm just saying that becoming a victim or causing a controversy followed by shilling is a tried and true tactic. I don't doubt that gw treats their employees poorly, that there's more to the story, and that this is a cash grab.


This is my favourite take of today. Thank you.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:32:00


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Nurglitch wrote:
It's less about being ethical than rewarding the people that bring in the money. Typically the people that bring money into a company, the salesmen, are the ones with the highest compensation, and all the back-end people who produce the product (plus administration, etc) are paid the least Management can pay and still meet quotas.

And you can see why, because paying a salesman who brings in many times his salary in sales is worth more in salary to a company than the more easily replaceable guy overseeing production, or the likewise more easily replaceable guy in marketing.

Of course, as I understand it GW's frontline sales force is also paid peanuts.

There's the connected issue of executive compensation where they make enough that they can hire lawyers to negotiate a compensation package rather than just accepting whatever the hiring company offers, usually with the understanding that their management is even more critical to the company's bottom line than even the salesmen they'll hire/oversee. Which is kind of funny from the perspective of production as typically the executive management, directors and up, can't find their own bums without an assistant's help.

Where game rules aren't exactly sales, and seem to be closer to a form of marketing than production, it's not terribly surprising to see it poorly compensated.

I mean, when was the last time you bought a GW game because of the rules? I'd be more interested in seeing the compensation of the sculptors/factory-workers as they're more directly in line with what people are actually buying, which is the models (although the occasional book, artbook, novel, measuring tape, and other hobby-related gash makes sense where otherwise they're leaving money on the table).

I think the game design, in terms of game products, is the very tip of the iceberg with all the business, product design, etc going on unseen and typically commented on.


I mostly buy models because of looks, but I admit, I have bought some because of rules also. I don't think I'm an exception there. And with books, I *definitely* buy those because of rules, or maybe I should say quality; and rules definitely drive the quality of the book. GW has 100% lost money from me from slapdash hack jobs, and I don't just mean weak books; if something is stupid OP, I'm not going to buy it either because I won't play it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lagoon83 wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
I'm just saying that becoming a victim or causing a controversy followed by shilling is a tried and true tactic. I don't doubt that gw treats their employees poorly, that there's more to the story, and that this is a cash grab.


This is my favourite take of today. Thank you.


Woah, incredible to have you in the thread. Thanks for the labor of love you have provided us fans over the years.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:34:51


Post by: zedmeister


 lagoon83 wrote:
 privateer4hire wrote:
Kinda surprised that they don’t have better NDA in place to prevent this type of information from surfacing. And then I remember that it probably won’t change a single person’s buying plans.


Yeah, didn't think of that until after the fact. Ho hum! Bring it on.


Surely it'd be against giving away company secrets not how shoddily you'd have been treated. Otherwise, Glassdoor would be flooded by legal requests to expose so and so for revealing that it really is a gak place to work...


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:45:00


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 privateer4hire wrote:
Your point about printing money is spot on. They have continued to make a killing paying peanuts. They would be stupid to change, wouldn’t they?


There’s a difference in douche level between just paying the minimum they can get away with to Game Rules Michael Jordan and what they actually did; when another department gave him a better offer, instead of trying to match it they used their influence to have the better offer retracted. That’s …That’s disgustingly petty.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:45:17


Post by: Irkjoe


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


That one is interesting but I hesitate to read too much into it. It's very unfortunate that she dealt with the situation above, and I hope GW improves their internal processes. But also, every company ever seems to have dysfunction like this; I don't think it's surprising or damning to hear that about GW. Not every company pays peanuts though, so I am surprised to hear that.


Exactly, lots of stuff can be true. Maybe they treated her horribly, and maybe in the final analysis they made the right decision.

I'd also be interested in knowing if there are any game designers who aren't paid little and expendable. Seems like even key staff get the boot. I vaguely remember some of the privateer design team not able to afford living near the headquarters on what they got. Maybe mtg designers make a lot.

@lagoon83 Always good practice to meet twitter crying with suspicion imo.

Edited by ingtær. No, just no.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:50:31


Post by: The Red Hobbit


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 privateer4hire wrote:
Your point about printing money is spot on. They have continued to make a killing paying peanuts. They would be stupid to change, wouldn’t they?


There’s a difference in douche level between just paying the minimum they can get away with to Game Rules Michael Jordan and what they actually did; when another department gave him a better offer, instead of trying to match it they used their influence to have the better offer retracted. That’s …That’s disgustingly petty.

Yep, its extraordinarily petty and unfortunately not uncommon in corporate culture. It's why many professionals prefer to jump ship than do an internal transfer, especially in the tech sector.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:53:30


Post by: privateer4hire


 lagoon83 wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
I'm just saying that becoming a victim or causing a controversy followed by shilling is a tried and true tactic. I don't doubt that gw treats their employees poorly, that there's more to the story, and that this is a cash grab.


This is my favourite take of today. Thank you.


Please stop grabbing cash. It’s dirty and you don’t know where it’s been.

Also, the fact that Calth wasn’t adopted as a default board game approach to boxed set releases already points to an undervaluing of your designs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 privateer4hire wrote:
Your point about printing money is spot on. They have continued to make a killing paying peanuts. They would be stupid to change, wouldn’t they?


There’s a difference in douche level between just paying the minimum they can get away with to Game Rules Michael Jordan and what they actually did; when another department gave him a better offer, instead of trying to match it they used their influence to have the better offer retracted. That’s …That’s disgustingly petty.


Invisible hand of the Emprah!


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:55:45


Post by: beast_gts


Poor communication & inter-department rivalry meant her job disappeared while she was on maternity leave and they didn't know what to do with her when she returned.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:58:02


Post by: privateer4hire


That’s bad news in the UK, innit? Like they better figure it out?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 20:59:28


Post by: BertBert


I'm not sure if this is entirely analogous, but I've made similar experiences in the video game sector several years ago. They specifically recruited for "passionate" people because they knew they could get away with paying them poorly, have them work overtime on a regular basis etc. And I wasn't even doing creative work, which was in an even worse state than my department. Anyway, I can imagine that GW operates on a similar basis, because people who want to work there tend to be strongly invested into their product.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:00:46


Post by: Valander


 Irkjoe wrote:


I'd also be interested in knowing if there are any game designers who aren't paid little and expendable. Seems like even key staff get the boot. I vaguely remember some of the privateer design team not able to afford living near the headquarters on what they got. Maybe mtg designers make a lot.

Outside of very small, wildly successful companies (are there any of those?), I'd be surprised if there were any really well paid designers. I'm sure there's got to be some outliers (Richard Garfield, Justin Gary, maybe others?), but most of them went on to form their own business, so they're not really "just game designers" anymore.

I mean, I want to design games, too. That's why I formed my tiny little 1 person LLC, so that I could do that. Of course, it doesn't make any money currently, so I have to keep my day job in software, which means I'm not really putting "full time" into doing the game company stuff, which means it isn't making any money, which means I have to keep my day job, etc. But I have known other folks who did design/dev work for other studios (PP, Ral Partha, others), and, yeah, they weren't making great wages either.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:03:26


Post by: lagoon83


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Woah, incredible to have you in the thread. Thanks for the labor of love you have provided us fans over the years.


Sometimes I lurk, sometimes I get involved. It's normally funnier if people don't realise who I am for ages.

Hi!


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:07:01


Post by: beast_gts


 BertBert wrote:
I'm not sure if this is entirely analogous, but I've made similar experiences in the video game sector several years ago. They specifically recruited for "passionate" people because they knew they could get away with paying them poorly, have them work overtime on a regular basis etc.


Or they get students on work placements and can pay them even less...
(I've never 'officially' worked for a games studio but have done tech support, alpha & beta testing, crunch food runs, etc. and while there are a few good ones most are horrible)


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:10:23


Post by: Not Online!!!


No wonder the rules are careless on occaision..actually with this in mind... Its astonishing that there even are rules


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:16:23


Post by: privateer4hire


Hey, these rules have horrible balance!
So does my bank account! Ba-dum-tish!


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:23:15


Post by: Not Online!!!


 privateer4hire wrote:
Hey, these rules have horrible balance!
So does my bank account! Ba-dum-tish!


It would be funnier if it wasn't that accurate a statement.
Meanwhile gw forced piecemeal DLC sales of rules.. makes Hand over fist in money and can't even pay their writers decently?!?



Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:34:08


Post by: Cronch


Not Online!!! wrote:

Meanwhile gw forced piecemeal DLC sales of rules.. makes Hand over fist in money and can't even pay their writers decently?!?

It can, the managers choose not to.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:35:14


Post by: BertBert


@lagoon83:
On a more positive note, would you mind telling us which of the rulesets you've worked on in your time with GW is dearest to your heart?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:49:56


Post by: lagoon83


 BertBert wrote:
@lagoon83:
On a more positive note, would you mind telling us which of the rulesets you've worked on in your time with GW is dearest to your heart?


I don't wanna derail the thread, so I'll just answer this one. Probably Silver Tower, although Titanicus is a close second


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:50:58


Post by: Monkeysloth


As a software engineer I learned to avoid the companies that state they want people that "don't do the work for the money" but because they love the work. Had two jobs back to back where they'd constantly state they'd fire anyone that wasn't happy about their pay as it meant "they weren't passionate" and weren't worth what they were paying you (which was usually half what other companies were). Some really abusive stuff. So I've seen what James went through in person.

Of course they were horrible places to work at and I, thankfully, live in an area with a booming tech industry and have a pretty in demand skill set so after convincing myself the grass would be greener elsewhere found that it was true.

Sadly game designers don't have the luxury of the job market programmers have and outside of GW stuff and Magic I doubt any game really brings in enough to pay super well either.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:56:07


Post by: Argive


 lagoon83 wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Woah, incredible to have you in the thread. Thanks for the labor of love you have provided us fans over the years.


Sometimes I lurk, sometimes I get involved. It's normally funnier if people don't realise who I am for ages.

Hi!


Do you know when we will get to see an Eldar update with new aspects and stuff??

I'm not asking you to tell me (although if you PM me I will take your secret to the grave), but only if you KNOW.

Asking for a friend....


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 21:58:23


Post by: The Red Hobbit


Smart money is on 2023 for an Eldar refresh. That gives two more years so they don't have to rush the Primaris releases out the door.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 22:02:56


Post by: stratigo


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


That one is interesting but I hesitate to read too much into it. It's very unfortunate that she dealt with the situation above, and I hope GW improves their internal processes. But also, every company ever seems to have dysfunction like this; I don't think it's surprising or damning to hear that about GW. Not every company pays peanuts though, so I am surprised to hear that.


every company has compensation issues too.

It's almost like these issues are... systemic.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 22:08:26


Post by: DarknessEternal


I see no new information here.

Entertainment industries (all of them) do not pay well.

This whole thread could be summarized as "water is wet".


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 22:09:11


Post by: Argive


Its still sad though...


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 23:05:42


Post by: H.B.M.C.


bUt GuYs! ThEy HaVe A fAcEbOoK pAgE nOw!!!

This just screams of completely disorganised management.

It's one thing to get paid like a 16 year-old fry cook despite turning out games that are a massive success, and another to find out that your job is ripped apart, passed around to various people, your managers don't talk to you (or change, without notice) and that you get a secondment and get made redundant at the same time. I mean, what the hell???


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 23:46:09


Post by: Andrew1975


Makes rules.....cant afford to play games......sounds fair.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/26 23:53:32


Post by: Blastaar


Of course they underpay staff.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 00:01:04


Post by: scarletsquig


One of my hopes is that the 3d printing revolution will eventually result in indie miniatures games being produced alongside the minis, giving work to developers and 2d artists along the way.

We're starting to see the early stages of that happening, hopefully it will continue.

Automation and owning the means of production is happening right now with wargames, it's never been easier to produce small batches of minis or books.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 05:43:17


Post by: lord marcus


scarletsquig wrote:
One of my hopes is that the 3d printing revolution will eventually result in indie miniatures games being produced alongside the minis, giving work to developers and 2d artists along the way.

We're starting to see the early stages of that happening, hopefully it will continue.

Automation and owning the means of production is happening right now with wargames, it's never been easier to produce small batches of minis or books.


Especially with some companies actively supporting batch production. For example, Wargames Atlantic with the outreach program


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 06:00:22


Post by: posermcbogus


Only part way through James' twitter thread and feth me is that some scummy management stuff. Glad I joined the vote with the wallet club, that whole pay rise thing is disgusting.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 06:41:04


Post by: tneva82


 Arbitrator wrote:

Another one of his Tweets also talks about how not a lot actually changed internally between the Kirby and Rountree years, most of the execs were the same afterall. No surprise there.


As I have been saying for years. nuGW is oldGW with new marketing strategy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 The Red Hobbit wrote:
That is a shockingly low amount of money to pay someone who put together games that generated enormous amounts of money.

Shows them as very incompetent from a business sense. They had someone putting out blockbuster after blockbuster they could have given him a modest compensation and he may have been happy to work there another 20 years. Instead they underpay top talent. Bizarre.

But hey the Company prints money no matter what they do, there is no forcing function to make them behave ethically or even smartly in this case.


They don't need top talent...

Rule writers are there to shift game imbalances so people buy new models. Improving game rules etc are irrelevant. They don¨t WANT talent there. With bad luck it would actually result in balanced game which would hurt sales big time.

Rules are just marketing tool. Models is what profits for GW


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 07:05:57


Post by: Sarouan


Yes, it's infuriating. And yes, very sadly, it's atrociously common in private companies around the world...Just ask how much were paid Mantic Games background writers / rule designers...or more "funny", how is paid their rule committee...

Asking for a payrise is often seen as "bad" and we do really have a problem about our relationship with work and salaries. It's indeed the perception that people who ask for a payrise aren't as passionate as those who don't about their work.

Yet, it has no link. And asking for a better payment when you are indeed part of the success and thus helping bringing more money to your company should be natural.

But it's the same old problem with capitalism...and it keeps growing as difference in salaries with the top is still getting bigger (especially in the US with billionaires).

That's why we need worker unions and why they are so fought against in the US. When workers do indeed gather and talk about salaries between them...they can become in a position to negotiate more strongly than when they're just individuals having to do that alone.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 08:12:33


Post by: Slipspace


I've had my own interactions with GW's employment policies and, sadly, this doesn't surprise me at all. I hate job adverts that don't even give a salary range, especially in relatively niche roles like games designer. The thing that annoys me most is the waste of everyone's time. I applied for a job doing writing for their website (this was about a year or two before WHC appeared so it was probably them getting ready to launch that site). They didn't mention salary, gave all the usual crap about wanting people with passion, etc (while also wanting you to have writing experience) and I got invited for an interview. They paid my travel expenses and for a night at a local hotel since I was coming down from Scotland for a full-day interview.

The interview was actually a fairly good experience. Got to hang out with 6 or 7 other applicants and chat about games and stuff, and got to see around WHW and some of the internal workings within the studio. I want to stress that none of the people I interacted with during the process were anything other than very nice, professional people. However, there were some warning signs. The HR person wouldn't even discuss salary during the face-to-face interview part of the day. I was also praised for my article submission being completely free of grammar and spelling issues, which I thought was odd given we'd had weeks to prepare it and, y'know, we were applying for a writing job. Didn't speak too highly of their standards. Anyway, after the whole day was done I went back home and eventually heard back from them saying I hadn't been successful. However, due to what I assume was a minor error on HR's part (yes, apparently even their HR e-mails need errata), the e-mail did include the salary offered to the successful applicant and my disappointment was suddenly overwritten with relief. The salary seemed to be near minimum wage, for a role that had listed experience in the field as highly desirable. I'm honestly not sure how I could have lived off it.

The thing that really annoys me is I'm sure at least half of the candidates at the interview wouldn't have taken the position if offered due to pay. We were all currently in other jobs, mostly in the same field, and other than one guy we were all in our mid-late 20s so it's not like we're trying to get our foot in the door for our first ever job. GW spent all that time, effort and money paying our travel expenses and going through the whole day-long interview process, when a simple indication of salary would have saved everyone all of that time and effort.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 08:59:43


Post by: kodos


Sarouan wrote:
Yes, it's infuriating. And yes, very sadly, it's atrociously common in private companies around the world...Just ask how much were paid Mantic Games background writers / rule designers...or more "funny", how is paid their rule committee...

How much did Mantic pay their designer?
and how much does GW pays their playtester?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 09:44:40


Post by: Graphite


The bewildering thing on these stories is always wondering GW manage to hire people who aren't on the "creative" side of the business.

How do you hire IT guys? How do you hire people who run large pieces of industrial equipment? GW has a very big factory after all - "Knowledge of our worlds" quickly becomes a secondary factor compared to "knowledge of the correct procedures to avoid being mashed by several tonnes of machinery, and ability to demonstrate that to the Health and Safety Executive"

Sooner or later you run into the problem of having to hire people who know how to Do Very Specific Stuff.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 09:47:19


Post by: Sarouan


 kodos wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Yes, it's infuriating. And yes, very sadly, it's atrociously common in private companies around the world...Just ask how much were paid Mantic Games background writers / rule designers...or more "funny", how is paid their rule committee...

How much did Mantic pay their designer?
and how much does GW pays their playtester?


You tell me.

Funny you didn't mention the rule committee, indeed. You know how they are really "paid" for their work, don't you.

Just to say it's not GW the roots of the problem. But you'd rather close your eyes and think than if GW just disappeared, no other company would take its place and not use the same practices.

I say it's time for rule designer / background writers to unionize and defend their rights to be paid fairly. Defending their case alone and individually will always result in the same problem : you have less weight to negotiate.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 09:51:56


Post by: beast_gts


 Graphite wrote:
How do you hire IT guys?
This was a comment on the original (non-James) Twitter post:
I went for a job at GW in IT, wrote a letter, went through the whole interview and then at the end they asked my current salary and visibily flinched. What a waste of time that was.



 Graphite wrote:
Sooner or later you run into the problem of having to hire people who know how to Do Very Specific Stuff.
They apparently just bring contractors / sub-contractors in-house - they hired a few of the people trying to fix their ERP issues IIRC.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 09:56:54


Post by: Slipspace


I also wouldn't be surprised if things like IT are afterthoughts for GW. They're caught between the creative part of the business and the out-of-touch higher-ups who probably think their friend's teenage son who's pretty smart with "computer stuff" can run their IT for them. I mean it's just turning it off then on again, right?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:08:55


Post by: kodos


Sarouan wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Yes, it's infuriating. And yes, very sadly, it's atrociously common in private companies around the world...Just ask how much were paid Mantic Games background writers / rule designers...or more "funny", how is paid their rule committee...

How much did Mantic pay their designer?
and how much does GW pays their playtester?


You tell me.

you brought that up so I guessed you must have some details
because "others don't pay well either" does not help or add anything to the discussion

I don't know much that I could add here, I could guess that GW playtester get paid less than Mantic playtesters, but I don't have/know any details

you brought up Mantic so please share what you know about them
if you don't know anything about how much the they are paying why are you mentioning them in way that let people assume you know that they pay worse than GW?

Sarouan wrote:

Just to say it's not GW the roots of the problem.

with GW being the oldest among them and biggest one that could easily afford paying 3 times as much and would still have skyrocket profits
they are the root of the problem

Sarouan wrote:
I say it's time for rule designer / background writers to unionize and defend their rights to be paid fairly. Defending their case alone and individually will always result in the same problem : you have less weight to negotiate.

that's why most of them are freelancer and/or have their own company now
same is there are not many writers or artists left that work for a fixed payment per month for a big company but doing commissioned work


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:10:35


Post by: beast_gts


Slipspace wrote:
I also wouldn't be surprised if things like IT are afterthoughts for GW. They're caught between the creative part of the business and the out-of-touch higher-ups who probably think their friend's teenage son who's pretty smart with "computer stuff" can run their IT for them. I mean it's just turning it off then on again, right?
Well, one of the higher-ups wife got the contract to redesign the website a few years ago...


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:20:28


Post by: Graphite


beast_gts wrote:
 Graphite wrote:
How do you hire IT guys?
This was a comment on the original (non-James) Twitter post:
I went for a job at GW in IT, wrote a letter, went through the whole interview and then at the end they asked my current salary and visibily flinched. What a waste of time that was.


Oh, I know. It's also not the first time I've heard the story, from other people - it almost seems to be the default for IT guys who go to work at GW.

My point is - they must hire SOMEBODY. Who?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:22:45


Post by: Flinty


When do GW get hit with the old ransomware shindig?

That would put a dent in their profits...


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:25:50


Post by: Sarouan


 kodos wrote:

you brought that up so I guessed you must have some details
because "others don't pay well either" does not help or add anything to the discussion


Of course it does. Just ask Dungeon Saga's rule designer how much he was paid for his work with Mantic Games.

As for the rule committee...they basically do this in addition to their actual job. They're not paid an extra even though what they do add really to the community of their games. One left because he didn't have time anymore to invest in the rule committee.

And to me, that's as bad as James Hewitt's case.



if you don't know anything about how much the they are paying why are you mentioning them in way that let people assume you know that they pay worse than GW?


You don't seem to understand. The core issue here is not "being paid worse". It's "being paid fairly for their work". The purpose of my post was to point there is a problem of how much is paid such a position in all miniature game companies, and it's not solved by saying one company is worst than another.



with GW being the oldest among them and biggest one that could easily afford paying 3 times as much and would still have skyrocket profits
they are the root of the problem


No they're not.

Profits aren't the root. Budget allowance for worker salaries is. And it's not a question of company size...just the intent of the company to allow more budget for the salaries of their "base workers" rather than an imbalance elsewhere.

It's the perception of value of a specific category of workers and how much you can allow to pay them in comparison to, well simply how easy it is to recruit by giving that salary.

If there are still people going for that, why paying a higher salary ?

Which is why...


that's why most of them are freelancer and/or have their own company now
same is there are not many writers or artists left that work for a fixed payment per month for a big company but doing commissioned work


...this doesn't solve the problem either. It just means they are still alone to negotiate - if they ask for too high, company can just say "well I'll hire someone else that won't ask as much than you". You think you can be really picky as a freelancer to refuse any company in that field ? Especially if you're not that known or don't have that many relationships with those working in that sector.

And that is why we need worker unions. Banding together, understanding it's more benefitial to gather so that they have more weight and rise the salaries. Because the companies would then have a problem : against a union of workers not agreeing to work for less, they have more difficulties to hire people who will agree to that...

Individuality actually works in favor of companies. Because a guy alone will always be weaker than a group.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:37:22


Post by: lord_blackfang


 kodos wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Yes, it's infuriating. And yes, very sadly, it's atrociously common in private companies around the world...Just ask how much were paid Mantic Games background writers / rule designers...or more "funny", how is paid their rule committee...

How much did Mantic pay their designer?
and how much does GW pays their playtester?


We know Mantic rules committees are run by volunteers. So are most recuitment programs that many miniature companies do.

One thing tho

mattjgilbert, former head of the RC, said at one time he's a volunteer because Mantic could never afford to match the pay in his day job... and yet now he works at Mantic.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:37:27


Post by: Cronch


Sarouan wrote:

Just to say it's not GW the roots of the problem. But you'd rather close your eyes and think than if GW just disappeared, no other company would take its place and not use the same practices.

Pretty much all creative jobs are underpaid, everywhere in the world. Which doesn't change the fact that GW is a company with 150 million pound profit (pre-tax) last year, they CAN afford to pay their employees better.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:43:46


Post by: lagoon83


tneva82 wrote:

They don't need top talent...

Rule writers are there to shift game imbalances so people buy new models. Improving game rules etc are irrelevant. They don¨t WANT talent there. With bad luck it would actually result in balanced game which would hurt sales big time.

Rules are just marketing tool. Models is what profits for GW


While I agree that they don't necessarily want top talent and innovation, I disagree with the idea that a good game designer would make the game balanced. A good game designer would see that the company's need is for an ever-changing meta, which means some level of imbalance is a) inevitable and b) desired.

And that's without even getting into the fact that AOS and 40k are inherently nigh-impossible to balance.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:44:47


Post by: Sarouan


 lord_blackfang wrote:

mattjgilbert, former head of the RC, said at one time he's a volunteer because Mantic could never afford to match the pay in his day job... and yet now he works at Mantic.


Yes, that's what Mantic Games would surely say. Just like James got the same answer from GW's department about his payrise.

And now mattjgilbert indeed works at Mantic but not for the RC anymore.

Which is already telling something, you know : if he was paid fairly for it, I bet he would be considering still doing it.

That's the real point here.


Cronch wrote:
Sarouan wrote:

Just to say it's not GW the roots of the problem. But you'd rather close your eyes and think than if GW just disappeared, no other company would take its place and not use the same practices.

Pretty much all creative jobs are underpaid, everywhere in the world. Which doesn't change the fact that GW is a company with 150 million pound profit (pre-tax) last year, they CAN afford to pay their employees better.


There are always excuses not to raise salaries when you run a company. Though, I'll be curious to know what is Ronnie's pay in comparison to the rest of the employees at Mantic Games...but that, you won't have an answer from Mantic Games, most likely.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:47:04


Post by: beast_gts


 Graphite wrote:
My point is - they must hire SOMEBODY. Who?
My guess would be either young fanboys who don't know any better, or they actually pay industry rate when they have no other option (or they use contractors and charge a different budget).


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:57:14


Post by: kodos


Sarouan wrote:
Just ask Dungeon Saga's rule designer how much he was paid for his work with Mantic Games.

so you don't know anything about it and therefore want us to ask those people so that we see that other companies are bad as well to shine a brighter light on GW?

Sarouan wrote:

You don't seem to understand. The core issue here is not "being paid worse". It's "being paid fairly for their work". The purpose of my post was to point there is a problem of how much is paid such a position in all miniature game companies, and it's not solved by saying one company is worst than another.

of course it is about fair payment
but "fair" is different depending on what the company you work for can afford

so there is a difference between a company that makes millions in profit but pays minimum wages, or a company that just makes enough money to pay the people

when people complain about Amazon not paying well enough for the job, bringing up a small company in central africa that is also paying minimum wages only adds nothing to the discussion except for "you situation is not that bad because others are paid bad as well)

so what is you point, that we should not blame GW for doing it because we should assume that others do it as well?

Sarouan wrote:
If there are still people going for that, why paying a higher salary ?

because you can afford it
yes this is a general problem because modern schools of economics try to burn the world with short term gains on everything
and at the same time running campaigns that it is on the people to change the world

but stop blaming the people, it is the company and the company alone
if GW pays badly, there is only GW to blame and no one else


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:58:21


Post by: Cronch


Sarouan wrote:

There are always excuses not to raise salaries when you run a company. Though, I'll be curious to know what is Ronnie's pay in comparison to the rest of the employees at Mantic Games...but that, you won't have an answer from Mantic Games, most likely.

"Yes, the multi-million pound company is paying it's talent like trash, bUt WhAT aBouT tHe SmAlLeR cOmPanY, hUh?"
We're not discussion mantic or pp or warlord games, you might've noticed.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:58:59


Post by: Pacific


 kodos wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Yes, it's infuriating. And yes, very sadly, it's atrociously common in private companies around the world...Just ask how much were paid Mantic Games background writers / rule designers...or more "funny", how is paid their rule committee...

How much did Mantic pay their designer?
and how much does GW pays their playtester?


The difference here is the relative size/profit margins of both of these companies.

If GW was a fledgling company or much smaller player in the industry I could understand these wage levels. In that instance, it's an 'everyone in this together' - all of the staff don't earn that much money, the owner has remortgaged their house and taken out bank loans to try and make the business work. There are bonuses 'in kind', perhaps a big success will lead to a big Xmas party and some bonus pay.

But, GW is a massive, established, multi-millon pound company. Their exec-level are on massive wage level (I saw £650k listed for Kevin Rowntree - this is significantly more than the CEO earns in my business, one which is much larger and employees a lot more people than GW) and they constantly pay out for shareholders, while the creative heart and soul (and actually, think lots of other staff from the sounds of it) are paid peanuts and treated poorly.

I absolutely don't think GW is alone in this - lots of people have pointed out that there are many 'creative' industries which suffer from the same ailment. But, that absolutely doesn't make it right. And considering that GW is supposed to be the 'city on the hill' in this market (and in many ways operates as a monopoly), really you would think they don't have to do this, they could try to be a bit less gakky and a bit more generous with their staff.

You can absolutely see why so many developers in particular move on from there.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 10:59:26


Post by: kodos


Sarouan wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:

mattjgilbert, former head of the RC, said at one time he's a volunteer because Mantic could never afford to match the pay in his day job... and yet now he works at Mantic.


Yes, that's what Mantic Games would surely say. Just like James got the same answer from GW's department about his payrise.
And now mattjgilbert indeed works at Mantic but not for the RC anymore.
Which is already telling something, you know : if he was paid fairly for it, I bet he would be considering still doing it.
That's the real point here.


Matt said he will only work full time for Mantic if they will pay him accordingly

Now he works for Mantic and your conclusion is that Mantic must pay him badly because otherwise he would still own his other job and doing it for free?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 11:03:34


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


As someone who works for an organisation that employs thousands of people, I think such types of organisations rarely give a crap about their employees, and see them as largely being replaceable.

It's the small businesses that are more likely going to appreciate the effort you put in and how much of a pain in the arse it will be to replace you if you go.



Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 11:26:10


Post by: Sarouan


 kodos wrote:

but stop blaming the people, it is the company and the company alone


You do know that companies are made of people, right ? It's not "GW as a company" who take decisions...it's specific people working at different levels. Mantic Games is the same.

Stop hating GW blindly. Actually look at the real roots of the problem. Otherwise, when GW will disappear and another takes its place to do the exact same practices, you will just blame another fake target for something that will still be there.


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
As someone who works for an organisation that employs thousands of people, I think such types of organisations rarely give a crap about their employees, and see them as largely being replaceable.

It's the small businesses that are more likely going to appreciate the effort you put in and how much of a pain in the arse it will be to replace you if you go.


Small businesses aren't more likely to do that, because that is always originating from humans behind the companies. And humans have different points of view. A small business run by people who think that base workers are repleceable easily and not caring about paying them fairly will keep treating them like so. Like I said, size or profits don't matter. It's the mindset of people taking decisions and deciding the budget allowance for salaries...and of those who accept it.

It's not something that change that easily. It takes time to change the mindset of such an organization, but it still can be done.

GW isn't an exception here, nor the rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kodos wrote:


Now he works for Mantic and your conclusion is that Mantic must pay him badly because otherwise he would still own his other job and doing it for free?


No, I'm glad for him.

I'm just saying the rest of RC is still not paid for their RC work. That's all that should matter to you, since what they do is really beneficial for your favorite game KoW and I'm sure they could do more wonders if they could work on it full time and paid, but you're clearly not focused on that. Guess it doesn't really matter for you.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 12:03:54


Post by: H.B.M.C.


It's fun watching Sarouan twist himself into knots trying to shift the blame away from GW.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 12:04:44


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


 DarknessEternal wrote:
I see no new information here.

Entertainment industries (all of them) do not pay well.

This whole thread could be summarized as "water is wet".


It's worth noting that some portions of film and live entertainment are in fact paid well.

Because they're unionized.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 12:09:54


Post by: GoldenHorde


What is interesting is this wishy washy statement that people say.

Getting only X for doing Y.

As if the person doing X for X isn't a human being with needs also. As if doing Y makes people doing X subhuman or somethng.

Bizarre sentiment of our culture as to how we degrade our fellow peoples.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 12:15:37


Post by: Lammia


What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 12:25:10


Post by: tneva82


Only thing that could work would be stop buying models. That's the only thing GW worries about. Model sales.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 12:25:12


Post by: Nurglitch


Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)

I'm sure GW consumers would be willing to pay more for the product if it meant that the people producing it could lead comfortable, middle-class lives.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 12:29:51


Post by: Goose LeChance


 Nurglitch wrote:
Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)

I'm sure GW consumers would be willing to pay more for the product if it meant that the people producing it could lead comfortable, middle-class lives.


GWs rules aren't worth the paper their printed on, or the megabytes.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 12:31:29


Post by: chaos0xomega


I see a lot of "I don't understand how they pay the guys designing their products so little, especially someone putting out blockbuster after blockbuster", etc. and I feel obliged to remind you all that GWs actual products are miniatures, not games nor rules.

Which is not to say that the pay isn't gak (it is) and GW isn't a horrid employer (they are), but its worth pointing out that the rules are considered an afterthought or an accessory and not what GW is making its fortunes on, and it stands to reason that they probably wouldn't prioritize compensating the people responsible for them at anything approaching a reasonable rate. James said it in one of his posts that he wasn't sure what the sculptors, etc. were paid, so its entirely possible thats "where the money is" (though I would not be surprised that they're getting a bad deal too). I also wouldn't be surprised if, at the corporate level, GWs execs and senior management have no idea what goes into game design and figure any joe off the street could do it competently with no training or effort. That sort of attitude will depress the value and worth that they ascribe to personnel that provide such functions and services, after all why pay top dollar for it when you believe a chimpanzee with a typewriter will do it for a banana?




Worth mentioning James and Sophie are married and business partners at Needy Cat, yknow for the kids out there white knighting for GW and insisting this is some conspiracy to besmirch the companies good name.

 Valander wrote:
I'm not surprised, honestly, for a multitude of reasons. Firstly, the tabletop game industry isn't exactly among the great paying jobs out there; there are many, many stories of many companies paying minimum wages or just above them. Large companies (not sure how many employees GW really has, but their revenues are pretty big for the tabletop game industry) always, always try to pay bare minimum that they can for non-executive positions. And, when you also have a pretty big fanbase of folks who see making games as a "dream job," you can get away with it even more.


My girlfriend works in the tabletop game industry in marketing for a company that is significantly smaller than GW is (though probably about as well known, arguably moreso considering what their major product lines are), and she makes almost double what James was being paid - which is still, IMO, too damned little, but nowhere near as severe as the situation he faced with GW.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
As a software engineer I learned to avoid the companies that state they want people that "don't do the work for the money" but because they love the work. Had two jobs back to back where they'd constantly state they'd fire anyone that wasn't happy about their pay as it meant "they weren't passionate" and weren't worth what they were paying you (which was usually half what other companies were). Some really abusive stuff. So I've seen what James went through in person.


Another red flag "we're like a family here". If you hear that in an interview, just walk out. Trust me.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Makes rules.....cant afford to play games......sounds fair.


TBH, I'm more shocked that James didn't even get designers copies or whatever. My girlfriends employer gives their staff free copies of almost all of their product, barring some of the really expensive stuff (like $200+ items). She easily brings home an extra $5-10k in free product per year if I was to guess (which makes her low income more tolerable for her, but also gives us a headache as to what to do with it all).

scarletsquig wrote:
One of my hopes is that the 3d printing revolution will eventually result in indie miniatures games being produced alongside the minis, giving work to developers and 2d artists along the way.
We're starting to see the early stages of that happening, hopefully it will continue.
Automation and owning the means of production is happening right now with wargames, it's never been easier to produce small batches of minis or books.


As someone on the design/production side of this as opposed to the consumer side, I'm not optimistic about it. Whats actually happening is that the "3D printing revolution" is driving down prices for our work and devaluing artists and sculptors output. It also an operation that doesn't scale well, its incredibly time consuming and the margins are much tighter than you realize (yes, even selling digital goods has a cost of goods sold, and its higher than you think). Its a full time job but not one which you can live off of, which means you need to have another full time job to actually pay your bills, leaving you less time to actually do the work you need to do. Hiring staff actually costs a lot of money - more than what most people can justify - so if you want to maintain consistent output you're stuck with freelancers who are willing to work for peanuts well underneath what they would get in the video game/entertainment industry, etc. A lot of those freelancers themselves are more than capable of setting up their own kickstarter/webstore/patreon so you can't rely on them long-term which means you're constantly having to find and recruit new ones which takes more time and more money, because freelancers are less likely to work with you if you don't send steady work their way, etc. etc. etc.

Its a snake eating itself, basically. Theres a few who through good marketing/word of mouth, first mover advantage, or just plain dumb luck have achieved mass to get good consistent incomes flowing, but for the most part its nothing to write home about and some of the biggest names in the "3d printing revolution" (Raging Heroes, Titan Forge, etc.) are guys/companies that are also really scummy and pay their freelancers bottom dollar, so really the opposite of what you think will happen is whats actually occuring.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 12:32:56


Post by: Mr Morden


Do GW still offer large scale staff discounts on product?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 12:40:00


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


 Mr Morden wrote:
Do GW still offer large scale staff discounts on product?


I understand they fire folks who resell stuff on ebay, if that's your question.



Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 12:41:46


Post by: Kanluwen


James added the following today:
A friend with connections at GW has pointed out that there have been improvements since I left, but current employees aren't allowed to discuss that sort of thing on social media, which risks skewing the dialogue.

I think it's important to bear that in mind!


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 12:46:45


Post by: beast_gts


Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)
As consumers I don't think there's much we can do. Buying shares and turning up to the shareholder meetings might get them to listen.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 13:07:38


Post by: Graphite


 Kanluwen wrote:
James added the following today:
A friend with connections at GW has pointed out that there have been improvements since I left, but current employees aren't allowed to discuss that sort of thing on social media, which risks skewing the dialogue.

I think it's important to bear that in mind!


"Things are much better now, but we're contractually forbidden from discussing in what way things are better" isn't a red flag at all. Not in the slightest.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 13:11:34


Post by: Tabletop_Magpie


One of the GW rules writers had to go in "disguise" to tournaments for other games because they weren't allowed to be seen playing other systems. He turned up to a GB event I was at with a fake moustache and fake name!

I believe that's changed a bit as Peachy tweeted ages ago he plays non GW stuff.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 13:21:05


Post by: kodos


chaos0xomega wrote:
As someone on the design/production side of this as opposed to the consumer side, I'm not optimistic about it. Whats actually happening is that the "3D printing revolution" is driving down prices for our work and devaluing artists and sculptors output. It also an operation that doesn't scale well, its incredibly time consuming and the margins are much tighter than you realize (yes, even selling digital goods has a cost of goods sold, and its higher than you think). Its a full time job but not one which you can live off of, which means you need to have another full time job to actually pay your bills, leaving you less time to actually do the work you need to do. Hiring staff actually costs a lot of money - more than what most people can justify - so if you want to maintain consistent output you're stuck with freelancers who are willing to work for peanuts well underneath what they would get in the video game/entertainment industry, etc. A lot of those freelancers themselves are more than capable of setting up their own kickstarter/webstore/patreon so you can't rely on them long-term which means you're constantly having to find and recruit new ones which takes more time and more money, because freelancers are less likely to work with you if you don't send steady work their way, etc. etc. etc.


I have seen this happening in all kind of different design/artists sectors

every time some new machinery that makes the process easier/faster comes up, all hobby artists jump for it because now they just need to buy that machine or sell supporting equipment, to make a living and become a full time artist
usually it starts going down as soon as the market fills up because having 90% of them doing the very same in slightly different styles ends with not enough customers to support all of them, while they start selling their stuff for cheap and undercut competitors, making bad calculations on what they really need to run their business (often something simple like electricity)

that you only need to sell files makes it much easier than in the past to find enough people for your niche, yet it is also easier for people to start and much more are trying to get into the market and the wargaming market is limited

won't take long until everyone has more than he will ever print, and printing armies is just cheap compared to GW prizes (or you want a scale no ones supports, which is why Warmaster is a thing now, those people who want it can print it), and not going for the cost of "time" needed
there is a reason why pre-painted terrain sells, because for a lot of people time is much more valuable than money and there printing it themselves is not an option (not with all the "cheap" files were you need to get the printer setup/support placement etc. done on your own)


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 13:21:33


Post by: Sarouan


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's fun watching Sarouan twist himself into knots trying to shift the blame away from GW.


I take comfort in your predictable posts always missing the point of my interventions and put the blame on GW anyway.

But more seriously :

chaos0xomega wrote:


As someone on the design/production side of this as opposed to the consumer side, I'm not optimistic about it. Whats actually happening is that the "3D printing revolution" is driving down prices for our work and devaluing artists and sculptors output. It also an operation that doesn't scale well, its incredibly time consuming and the margins are much tighter than you realize (yes, even selling digital goods has a cost of goods sold, and its higher than you think). Its a full time job but not one which you can live off of, which means you need to have another full time job to actually pay your bills, leaving you less time to actually do the work you need to do. Hiring staff actually costs a lot of money - more than what most people can justify - so if you want to maintain consistent output you're stuck with freelancers who are willing to work for peanuts well underneath what they would get in the video game/entertainment industry, etc. A lot of those freelancers themselves are more than capable of setting up their own kickstarter/webstore/patreon so you can't rely on them long-term which means you're constantly having to find and recruit new ones which takes more time and more money, because freelancers are less likely to work with you if you don't send steady work their way, etc. etc. etc.

Its a snake eating itself, basically. Theres a few who through good marketing/word of mouth, first mover advantage, or just plain dumb luck have achieved mass to get good consistent incomes flowing, but for the most part its nothing to write home about and some of the biggest names in the "3d printing revolution" (Raging Heroes, Titan Forge, etc.) are guys/companies that are also really scummy and pay their freelancers bottom dollar, so really the opposite of what you think will happen is whats actually occuring.


Thank you for your intervention and a good reminder than being "smaller" doesn't necessarily mean everyone gets paid fairly.

And yes, sadly, this is the truth behind the "3D printing revolution". People who buy cheap STL files like to delude themselves thinking they do good and allow indies to live from it, but the harm on long term is yet to be paid...

It's a constant downfall spiral...


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 13:22:10


Post by: kodos


 Graphite wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
James added the following today:
A friend with connections at GW has pointed out that there have been improvements since I left, but current employees aren't allowed to discuss that sort of thing on social media, which risks skewing the dialogue.

I think it's important to bear that in mind!


"Things are much better now, but we're contractually forbidden from discussing in what way things are better" isn't a red flag at all. Not in the slightest.


now we are much more closer as a family and talk much more often with the management


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 13:23:14


Post by: Sarouan


 kodos wrote:

there is a reason why pre-painted terrain sells, because for a lot of people time is much more valuable than money and there printing it themselves is not an option (not with all the "cheap" files were you need to get the printer setup/support placement etc. done on your own)


Wait for the technology of 3D printing evolving enough so that you can print in color right away for a fair price. Then it will be a nightmare for all people getting paid to paint miniatures...


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 13:23:27


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)


Doing nothing is most likely the best move, GW will eventually shoot themselves in the face


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 13:29:44


Post by: Slipspace


Sarouan wrote:


You do know that companies are made of people, right ? It's not "GW as a company" who take decisions...it's specific people working at different levels. Mantic Games is the same.

Stop hating GW blindly. Actually look at the real roots of the problem. Otherwise, when GW will disappear and another takes its place to do the exact same practices, you will just blame another fake target for something that will still be there.


I'd argue GW are the root of the problem, at least as far as the wargaming industry goes. They're by far the biggest company in their small niche of tabletop wargaming, making large profits every year. They set the tone for the industry due to their size, and their domination makes it difficult for other companies to get a big enough piece of the pie to compete on salary.


Sarouan wrote:


Small businesses aren't more likely to do that, because that is always originating from humans behind the companies.


That has not been anything like my experience. Yes, you can get some egotistical owners or people who are just out of their depth at a small company. However, small businesses tend to value their employees more because for them hiring and firing isn't something they do literally every week. They don't have extensive HR operations to deal with the paperwork involved and they tend to be much more acutely aware of the contributions of their staff. Keeping good staff happy is a key part of running a small business because they take very real hits to their bottom line when one of their 10 employees leaves and it takes months to replace them.




Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 13:38:44


Post by: Skinnereal


beast_gts wrote:
Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)
As consumers I don't think there's much we can do. Buying shares and turning up to the shareholder meetings might get them to listen.
People looked at that around 5 years ago, and you'd need a LOT of shares.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 13:45:48


Post by: Pacific


 Skinnereal wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)
As consumers I don't think there's much we can do. Buying shares and turning up to the shareholder meetings might get them to listen.
People looked at that around 5 years ago, and you'd need a LOT of shares.


It needs something like this. Or, it gets big enough that mainstream media takes notice. One news story on the BBC, Independent, or Guardian might put pressure on GW PR to try and improve things and actually improve policy.

The problem with 'keep everything in the dark, you are not allowed to discuss salary' only serves to maintain these awful pay and working condition disparities. They wouldn't care about it otherwise.

That kind of story - of exec and worker pay-gap - gets a lot of mileage at the moment, think people are starting to take more notice of it. That's really the issue here; if GW was a small or struggling company trying to build a fan base it wouldn't be as deplorable. But you have the situation now where the company is booming, record £million profits and share prices, and you basically have the situation where the exec level are presumably sat like Daniel Day-Lewis from There will be Blood (with a top-hat) cackling while smoking a cigar while wondering what luxury item to spend their 6-figure salary on, while the actual creative core of the company (which is GW as far as I am concerned) having to make horrible life choices about where to live or just support their family, because the salary is so crap.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 13:51:27


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


 Graphite wrote:


"Things are much better now, but we're contractually forbidden from discussing in what way things are better" isn't a red flag at all. Not in the slightest.


"We are being treated well"

(blinks twice)

"We have not been abused"

(blinks twice)

"Do not believe the lies our enemies tell you"

(blinks twice)

"This is a workers' paradise"


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 14:02:14


Post by: beast_gts


TheGoodGerman just started this thread - GW employee bonus. Key point:

Warhammer retailer Games Workshop is handing its shop workers, model makers, designers and support staff a £5,000 bonus after sales and profits surged during the pandemic.

The Nottingham-based company behind the popular fantasygame and Lord of the Rings figurines said its 2,600 ordinary workers would split a £10.6m special bonus on top of a £2.6m profit share.

Senior managers will share an extra £1.1m bonus pot, up from £300,000 the year before, after sales rose by just over a third to £361m and pretax profits soared almost 70% to £151m.

The company has also cancelled business rates relief and other pandemic financial support from the government.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 14:07:33


Post by: Sarouan


beast_gts wrote:
TheGoodGerman just started this thread - GW employee bonus. Key point:

Warhammer retailer Games Workshop is handing its shop workers, model makers, designers and support staff a £5,000 bonus after sales and profits surged during the pandemic.

The Nottingham-based company behind the popular fantasygame and Lord of the Rings figurines said its 2,600 ordinary workers would split a £10.6m special bonus on top of a £2.6m profit share.

Senior managers will share an extra £1.1m bonus pot, up from £300,000 the year before, after sales rose by just over a third to £361m and pretax profits soared almost 70% to £151m.

The company has also cancelled business rates relief and other pandemic financial support from the government.


Which is obviously a conspiration from GW to shut the terrible testimonies from James and Sophie. Open your eyes ! Hate GW !


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 14:22:01


Post by: Gert


The thing is that the bonus was a good thing to do but at the same time isn't something anyone should be basing their opinions on applying for GW jobs on, much like getting 50% of GW products sounds cool but it isn't if you're only getting 20k a year and can't actually use that discount in a meaningful way.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 14:36:08


Post by: Pacific




They must have read our thread!

Good on GW, that's a bit more like how a good employer should behave


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 14:46:14


Post by: Grimtuff


ITT- 20k a year is apparently peanuts.

I'm in the wrong fething job...


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 15:14:15


Post by: Shadow Walker


 Grimtuff wrote:
ITT- 20k a year is apparently peanuts.

I'm in the wrong fething job...
20k GBP is a lot of money in my country but I guess in UK, and as a pay for a game designer that brought so much sales to GW with his games, it is not that much.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 15:17:17


Post by: Slowroll


 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
ITT- 20k a year is apparently peanuts.

I'm in the wrong fething job...
20k GBP is a lot of money in my country but I guess in UK, and as a pay for a game designer that brought so much sales to GW with his games, it is not that much.


Here in the Northeast US, thats about what McDonald's and other entry level jobs are paid, when converted to hourly.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 15:20:41


Post by: Nurglitch


Not to offend the game designer in question, but I suspect far more copies were sold on the strength of its miniatures than on people excited to play the game. It's not like those novels where the author's name is on the front cover, and in a bigger font than the title.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 15:21:58


Post by: SamusDrake


I have voted with my wallet in the past, Konami being top of that list and I still refuse to buy anything from them since Metal Gear 5...

If we hadn't have had today's news then GW would have been added to that list...


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 15:24:39


Post by: MarkNorfolk


20k less tax, less household shopping for 3, less running a car, less utilities.... it soon whittles down. Before you consider raising a child, which seems to be the case here...

A quick look at a mortgage calculator site seems to recommend a 48K deposit and a salary of £68k plus for a £240k property (average house price in Nottingham). Clearly, GW games designers are in the lap of luxury.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 15:25:21


Post by: stratigo


 Nurglitch wrote:
Lammia wrote:
What is our plan as consumers to make GW value their writers enough to pay them a quality wage? (And get quality rules written)

I'm sure GW consumers would be willing to pay more for the product if it meant that the people producing it could lead comfortable, middle-class lives.


I mean, GW consumers are willing to pay more to ensure executives get another boat.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 15:51:22


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


 Grimtuff wrote:
ITT- 20k a year is apparently peanuts.

I'm in the wrong @#$%ing job...


Hey I don't know what your job is, or where you live, or what your situation is but...

Yes.

Yes you are.

GBP20k~US$30k, or $15/hour. I made more than that as a temp twenty years ago.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 16:00:29


Post by: Graphite


Ninja'd on the Bonus article in the Gruaniad - this is a good thing! More of this, GW!


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 16:01:21


Post by: Crispy78


 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
ITT- 20k a year is apparently peanuts.

I'm in the wrong fething job...
20k GBP is a lot of money in my country but I guess in UK, and as a pay for a game designer that brought so much sales to GW with his games, it is not that much.


It's not dissimilar to the average Tesco (UK supermarket) cashier pay - average is apparently £9 per hour, and if you assume an average 40 hour week that works out to £18,720 per annum. I'd say he could do way better!


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 16:10:37


Post by: kodos


 Pacific wrote:


They must have read our thread!

Good on GW, that's a bit more like how a good employer should behave

20k a year +6k bonus because of sykrocket sales = 26k a year with the mean wage is 30k a year

so you need a Covid19 year worth of sales to get a 1000 GBP Bonus on top of your just above minimum wage, how generous


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 16:10:53


Post by: Mr Morden


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Do GW still offer large scale staff discounts on product?


I understand they fire folks who resell stuff on ebay, if that's your question.



Not really - For some it would be a incentive and part of the package - especially if you are likely to buy the product anyway? Whilst some drug dealers donlt touch the stuff - some do or so I have read.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 16:19:33


Post by: Pacific


I am very surprised that the company staff don't get more perks and free stuff. Someone I know works for Lego and gets ridiculously good discount (think that's their family's go-to for children's Xmas presents every year) and there has to be some recompense for having such a poor salary, and especially if you are the person that helped design the stuff!

I saw a post from Graham McNeil a while ago on Twitter where he had screenshot something in the GW checkout and said "so tempted to buy". Someone had somewhat insensitively replied "lol feth off do you pay full retail"
But, perhaps that person was incorrect and he actually does !!
If being a best selling author for BL, no doubt making the company very large sums of money, doesn't get you discounts then how far do you have to go?!

 kodos wrote:
 Pacific wrote:


They must have read our thread!

Good on GW, that's a bit more like how a good employer should behave

20k a year +6k bonus because of sykrocket sales = 26k a year with the mean wage is 30k a year

so you need a Covid19 year worth of sales to get a 1000 GBP Bonus on top of your just above minimum wage, how generous


I agree with you, but at least it is a step in the right direction.

Now - an acknowledgement of the key role developers/designers play in the company, and to increase base salary.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 16:29:22


Post by: kodos


I don't know if this is a step in the right direction, as a bonus based on sales for everyone is way too low to make of for a low wage

and the extra bonus for Covid just means that one was not there in the years before

this is something that should be there in addition to a good wage, not instead of it
because to make up for it it would need to be 10k on an average year, not 6k in the best year they ever had.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 16:59:25


Post by: yukishiro1


Companies love bonuses because it allows them to control payroll and only pay out decent wages when they're doing gangbusters, while also making their employees feel like they got some special gift, instead of the reality, which is that they are chronically underpaid.

FWIW this isn't the first time they've paid bonuses, it's a fairly regular thing (though this large a bonus is unusual). But that arguably makes it even less worker friendly, because it shows it's part of their general compensation strategy to underpay people at base salary.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 16:59:42


Post by: Azreal13


Thing about bonuses is, and this is from someone whose salary for over a decade was more than 50% PRP, they don't make it any easier to get a mortgage, they don't make it any easier to get a car loan, they don't help if you need to extend the limit on your credit card or overdraft.

That's what salaries are for.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 17:02:44


Post by: yukishiro1


Yep, a bonus is fine if your base salary is high enough to live on at some basic level of comfort, so it's an actual bonus, not a "bonus." GW's "bonuses" for line workers are very much "bonuses," not actual bonuses.

When a salary is calibrated to rely on bonuses to make it into a living wage, that's not a bonus, it's exploitation dressed up as beneficence.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 17:18:45


Post by: Shadow Walker


yukishiro1 wrote:
Yep, a bonus is fine if your base salary is high enough to live on at some basic level of comfort, so it's an actual bonus, not a "bonus." GW's "bonuses" for line workers are very much "bonuses," not actual bonuses.

When a salary is calibrated to rely on bonuses to make it into a living wage, that's not a bonus, it's exploitation dressed up as beneficence.

Agreed 100%.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 17:33:18


Post by: Lord Damocles


 Pacific wrote:
I saw a post from Graham McNeil a while ago on Twitter where he had screenshot something in the GW checkout and said "so tempted to buy". Someone had somewhat insensitively replied "lol feth off do you pay full retail"
But, perhaps that person was incorrect and he actually does !!
If being a best selling author for BL, no doubt making the company very large sums of money, doesn't get you discounts then how far do you have to go?!

It would hardly be surprising to learn that McNeil works for GW on a freelance basis, and therefore doesn't get employee benefits because he's not an employee; which seems entirely reasonable.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 17:35:55


Post by: AnomanderRake


I would love to say I was surprised by any of this.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 17:46:00


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Grimtuff wrote:
ITT- 20k a year is apparently peanuts.

I'm in the wrong fething job...


As others have said, you probably are assuming you aren't a teenager working a minimum wage job or don't have a college/university education to qualify you for a higher paying one. Even then, there are *lots* of job and career paths you can pursue without a college education that will pay substantially better than that.

 Slowroll wrote:
 Shadow Walker wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
ITT- 20k a year is apparently peanuts.

I'm in the wrong fething job...
20k GBP is a lot of money in my country but I guess in UK, and as a pay for a game designer that brought so much sales to GW with his games, it is not that much.


Here in the Northeast US, thats about what McDonald's and other entry level jobs are paid, when converted to hourly.


20k gbp is substantially less than my first job out of college with zero experience (living in NJ/NY metro area). I struggled to pay for my commute and pay my student loans on that level of income, and I was making about 30-40% more than James was.




With regard to the bonus, GW announced it previously in May as part of their preliminary annual financial statement thing, its not new news. The fact that it suddenly popped up on the guardian strikes me as interesting timing. I can only imagine that GWs PR team worked overtime to get that article out so quickly to try to defuse the situation that has resulted from James posts, recycling old news to make a point, etc.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 18:10:50


Post by: Rihgu


 Grimtuff wrote:
ITT- 20k a year is apparently peanuts.

I'm in the wrong fething job...


I made about 20k more than him in USD my first year out of college and could barely afford to eat, and definitely couldn't afford new clothes. Some places in the US could swing a salary that low, some can't. But it's definitely on the lower end of things. Walmart cashiers get paid more than that where I'm from.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 19:28:21


Post by: MaxT


 Pacific wrote:
Now - an acknowledgement of the key role developers/designers play in the company, and to increase base salary.


With all respect to James and the other games devs, but from a GW business perspective they’re not top 5 critical, and probably not even top 10. They’re certainly not key to be called out above several other roles.

Edit: agree tho they and most other creative roles should be better paid, but I get the business reality why they aren’t.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 20:18:46


Post by: Azreal13


You say that, what do you think would happen to model sales if they abandoned the idea of games altogether, pulled all the codexes and made the dev team redundant?

The idea of fielding an army on the tabletop is crucial to the GW sales process. It isn't critical that the rules are good but they're a critical part of what GW sells its customers, which isn't models.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 20:22:46


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


Does anyone know if sculptors are well paid or is that considered a labor of love as well?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 20:32:14


Post by: Mario


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Does anyone know if sculptors are well paid or is that considered a labor of love as well?
I remember reading ages ago (late 90s or early 00s) that they were paid okay (but not exceptionally good, the company relying on that "passion industry" perk) and did get some sort of bonuses based on sales, meaning if you were Jes "Mr Space Marine" Goodwin then your bonus was probably higher than whoever might have theoretically tried to revitalise Squats at ForgeWorld. I also read that they got a bunch of first run casts or sprues of everything they design (but that might have been a joke or a thing when most of their products were still metal).


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 20:53:13


Post by: Templarted


A lot of companies exploit the passion of employees to get staff to work for less. GW isn’t different in that regard but it’s a scummy practice, 20k a year even with unlimited overtime is less than I earned when I was a replaceable dogs body at a courier. And that company had less of a profit margin than GW. The wages paid for the product James was producing was criminal, I could never write rules but he has much more strength than me for sticking it out that long.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 20:54:49


Post by: kodos


MaxT wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
Now - an acknowledgement of the key role developers/designers play in the company, and to increase base salary.


With all respect to James and the other games devs, but from a GW business perspective they’re not top 5 critical, and probably not even top 10. They’re certainly not key to be called out above several other roles.

well the last time GW tried to sell models without a game to play we got AoS and that did not worked well until they added a proper game

so I disagree and say the rules are essential to sell the models in masses
i just might be that GW still haven't realised why their models sell


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 20:58:42


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


Having a game is like magic for selling toys.

I mean even at my most enthusiastic days of GI Joe and Transformers and Star Wars I would never want more than one of a figure or vehicle. And I wanted the latest and greatest, not last years stuff.

With a game GW can sell me the same darn kit year after year for decades and I'll like it.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 21:06:41


Post by: Lord of Deeds


Some interesting opinions on fair wages and such.

I strongly support anyone who votes with their wallet and refuses to purchase anything from those companies and their suppliers they believe is not paying or treating their employees with the level of compensation or dignity that you think the employees are deserving of.

If you are not voting with your wallet you are passively supporting the status quo.

Similarly, if you object to paying higher prices that are needed to raise the level of compensation or improve the work environment for those employees you are actively supporting the status quo.

Remember change starts with you!

In addition to game developers, here are some other companies who you probably also want to avoid due to their alleged sub-par compensation and inhumane treatment of employees or use child and even slave labor.

Apple
Microsoft
Samsung
LG
De Beers
Toyota
GM
Ford
Fiat Chrysler
Daimler Benz
BMW
Tesla

Most Grocery store chains and retailers (Walmart, Kroger, Macys, etc.)
Almost every major clothing manufacturer (Nike, Adidas, etc.)
Every fast food and convenience store chain (McDonalds, Starbucks, Yum Brands, etc.)



Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 21:13:37


Post by: Rihgu


 Lord of Deeds wrote:
Some interesting opinions on fair wages and such.

I strongly support anyone who votes with their wallet and refuses to purchase anything from those companies and their suppliers they believe is not paying or treating their employees with the level of compensation or dignity that you think the employees are deserving of.

If you are not voting with your wallet you are passively supporting the status quo.

Similarly, if you object to paying higher prices that are needed to raise the level of compensation or improve the work environment for those employees you are actively supporting the status quo.

Remember change starts with you!

In addition to game developers, here are some other companies who you probably also want to avoid due to their alleged sub-par compensation and inhumane treatment of employees or use child and even slave labor.

Apple
Microsoft
Samsung
LG
De Beers
Toyota
GM
Ford
Fiat Chrysler
Daimler Benz
BMW
Tesla

Most Grocery store chains and retailers (Walmart, Kroger, Macys, etc.)
Almost every major clothing manufacturer (Nike, Adidas, etc.)
Every fast food and convenience store chain (McDonalds, Starbucks, Yum Brands, etc.)



I can't tell if you believe that all wages are fair wages or just that there's ethical consumption under capitalism.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 21:31:18


Post by: privateer4hire


Remember kids, if you can’t fix every problem in the world, there’s no use trying to fix even a single thing. Knowing is half the battle, after all.



Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 22:15:29


Post by: MaxT


 Azreal13 wrote:
You say that, what do you think would happen to model sales if they abandoned the idea of games altogether, pulled all the codexes and made the dev team redundant?

The idea of fielding an army on the tabletop is crucial to the GW sales process. It isn't critical that the rules are good but they're a critical part of what GW sells its customers, which isn't models.


Sure in that example sales would go down. But if they made the logistics staff redundant, they’d be out of business in a week. If they got rid of their manufacturing staff, they’d be out of business by the time their stock has run out. If they got rid of their sculptors and pulled all models and try to just sell codexes they’d lose more sales than what you suggest. That’s 3 groups of staff off the top of my head that are more important than games devs.

Of course games devs are important to the overall GW business. But “key most important” is a high bar, and they aren’t it.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 22:16:25


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I’ve already been voting with my wallet against GW. Now I will even more. Somehow.

Also, earlier comments reminded me of this amusing comic.




Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 22:40:58


Post by: Azreal13


MaxT wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
You say that, what do you think would happen to model sales if they abandoned the idea of games altogether, pulled all the codexes and made the dev team redundant?

The idea of fielding an army on the tabletop is crucial to the GW sales process. It isn't critical that the rules are good but they're a critical part of what GW sells its customers, which isn't models.


Sure in that example sales would go down. But if they made the logistics staff redundant, they’d be out of business in a week. If they got rid of their manufacturing staff, they’d be out of business by the time their stock has run out. If they got rid of their sculptors and pulled all models and try to just sell codexes they’d lose more sales than what you suggest. That’s 3 groups of staff off the top of my head that are more important than games devs.

Of course games devs are important to the overall GW business. But “key most important” is a high bar, and they aren’t it.


That's really just a bit of a truism that can be applied to nearly any company.

It also really doesn't make sense in the context of how a company works. If the sculptors go, what does manufacturing make? If the writers stop writing books, what do logistics ship? You're trying to isolate a specific department and make it "more important" in the same way one might argue your brain is more important than your heart for being alive. The reality is it's an interdependent web.

However, for GW giving their models a context for use is a vital part of their money making process, and without it their cashflow falters. For the product they design, make and sell, games are crucial. It's right there in the name.



Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 22:48:29


Post by: MaxT


I agree with you, it is an interconnected web, my original reply was in response to “ Now - an acknowledgement of the key role developers/designers play in the company,”.

My point is they shouldn’t be acknowledged above all others in the company.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/27 23:01:26


Post by: Azreal13


They literally create what the company sells, or, more specifically, they create the thing that makes the other thing the company makes sell.

Without them there's no logistics, no IT, no accountants, no legal, no HR etc etc.

Without those departments the company may well go out of business, without miniatures and rules design, there isn't even a business in the first instance.

As things stand now, there's interdependence, but the creative departments are the genesis.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 01:57:01


Post by: Nurglitch


Would paying them more increase revenue?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 01:59:51


Post by: Rihgu


 Nurglitch wrote:
Would paying them more increase revenue?

Some places have found that increased pay leads to more productive workers which leads to increased revenue, yes.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 02:38:24


Post by: kurhanik


BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Spoiler:
I’ve already been voting with my wallet against GW. Now I will even more. Somehow.

Also, earlier comments reminded me of this amusing comic.




That comic never gets old to me. It turns out yes, you can complain and try to figure out a way to improve society while also existing inside of it. How people can seriously think they are intelligent for calling someone out for that is incredibly silly.

Rihgu wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Would paying them more increase revenue?

Some places have found that increased pay leads to more productive workers which leads to increased revenue, yes.


Who would have thought that having less stress on how to make ends meet would make the worker more productive. Much like how hours worked is not the best gauge of productivity since as hours go up each extra hour gives diminishing returns while also burning out the worker. Its why sectors like the videogame industry lean so heavily on young excited just out of college people - because they are an expendable resource they can just grind into dust while making absurd profits for the company, shareholders, and ceo.



Also bonuses are a horrible way of gifting out pay that is rightfully owed the workers - they make the company what it is, and without them the entire behemoth would grind to a halt. Hoping for a nice bonus on a record breaking year is not a sustainable way of putting food on the table and paying rent. Giving everyone a permanent 5k raise that exists every year does a hell of a lot more. Considering the amount of cash GW has been bringing in the past years, they can easily afford to grant living wages to all of its employees as well as a set pay increase structure.

I mean hell, the place I work guarantees two raises a year (or one if you hit your positions pay cap) of 0.25$/hour for part timers, 0.50$/hour for full timers, and I think, last I heard, a flat 3% increase for those on salary, and its not like I work at a glamorous gig.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 02:39:52


Post by: Goose LeChance


Why would GW need to pay the rules writers more, when they can push out any crap rule system and people will buy it anyway?

What's the incentive? feelings?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 02:43:09


Post by: Azreal13


Rihgu wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Would paying them more increase revenue?

Some places have found that increased pay leads to more productive workers which leads to increased revenue, yes.


Broadly agree. There's a thing in economic theory called Maslow's Hierarchy, which basically says (I'm paraphrasing heavily, but it holds up) if your employees are worrying about paying the bills they'll suck at their job.

So if the studio is all on a high enough salary that they can afford a home, to feed themselves and their family, keep some to one side for a rainy day, maybe go on holiday once or twice a year etc etc, then no, paying them more likely wouldn't increase productivity by anything significant.

If your employees are in the sort of situation that James appears to describe in his tweets? Then absolutely paying them more could increase productivity.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 03:11:15


Post by: Grot 6


Jobs like that are Stepping stones.

If you think you need to stay there, keep drinking the kool aid. You go in, get your feet wet in the chosen profession, then move on when you've had your fill and move on to something better with a good letter of recommendation. (If even that.)

Make your mark, and move on. Don't cry about it, don't post p!@#$y little passive aggressive Twits, don't talk about it. Keep your mouth closed, take it like a gentleman, and continue.

You go into a job, one of the pieces of information you might want to ask, or find out- before you even apply- What is the Mean/ Medium of salary? How is this position compared to other companies positions, What can I make, what do I need to do to earn bonuses, are there any other bennies, do I get a car / parking/ gas money/ bus money, etc... Do I get other intangibles to take the place of the low salary, such as open bar, free chow, company trips, etc.


This is GW. They don't care about workers, if you haven't figured it out yet. They want you to drink the kulture kool aid, keep your mouth shut, and smile as you cry on the inside.

Madness? THIS IS GW!

Non-wargaming image removed


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 05:32:23


Post by: kurhanik


 Grot 6 wrote:
Jobs like that are Stepping stones.

If you think you need to stay there, keep drinking the kool aid. You go in, get your feet wet in the chosen profession, then move on when you've had your fill and move on to something better with a good letter of recommendation. (If even that.)

Make your mark, and move on. Don't cry about it, don't post p!@#$y little passive aggressive Twits, don't talk about it. Keep your mouth closed, take it like a gentleman, and continue.

You go into a job, one of the pieces of information you might want to ask, or find out- before you even apply- What is the Mean/ Medium of salary? How is this position compared to other companies positions, What can I make, what do I need to do to earn bonuses, are there any other bennies, do I get a car / parking/ gas money/ bus money, etc... Do I get other intangibles to take the place of the low salary, such as open bar, free chow, company trips, etc.


This is GW. They don't care about workers, if you haven't figured it out yet. They want you to drink the kulture kool aid, keep your mouth shut, and smile as you cry on the inside.

Madness? THIS IS GW!


Not everyone can afford to treat jobs like stepping stones that can be discarded for the next one at a whim. In fact, I'd say its likely that more people are stuck in a situation of working a crap job with crap pay because it is all they can get than aren't. Talking about the abuses an employer commits on its workers is one of the few powers people have to enact change, unless they can instantaneously find a new and better job, have a big enough nest egg saved up from their current job, or have friends/family they can fall back on to for awhile while collecting unemployment. When we are talking about close to minimum wage pay, that really makes the ability to just pick and choose jobs hard since it is hard to build any sort of emergency backup fund off of that.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 05:55:22


Post by: Blastaar


 Grot 6 wrote:
Jobs like that are Stepping stones.

If you think you need to stay there, keep drinking the kool aid. You go in, get your feet wet in the chosen profession, then move on when you've had your fill and move on to something better with a good letter of recommendation. (If even that.)

Make your mark, and move on. Don't cry about it, don't post p!@#$y little passive aggressive Twits, don't talk about it. Keep your mouth closed, take it like a gentleman, and continue.

You go into a job, one of the pieces of information you might want to ask, or find out- before you even apply- What is the Mean/ Medium of salary? How is this position compared to other companies positions, What can I make, what do I need to do to earn bonuses, are there any other bennies, do I get a car / parking/ gas money/ bus money, etc... Do I get other intangibles to take the place of the low salary, such as open bar, free chow, company trips, etc.


This is GW. They don't care about workers, if you haven't figured it out yet. They want you to drink the kulture kool aid, keep your mouth shut, and smile as you cry on the inside.

Madness? THIS IS GW!


Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 05:58:37


Post by: yukishiro1


It's also a big part of what keeps jobs in creative industries largely the preserve of the middle classes and above - if you need to be able to "put in the time" working a job that doesn't pay a living wage, that naturally favors people with existing financial resources.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 06:14:59


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


Rihgu wrote:
 Nurglitch wrote:
Would paying them more increase revenue?

Some places have found that increased pay leads to more productive workers which leads to increased revenue, yes.


I continue to buy GW models and books but have not played a game in a few years or even bought rule books. Partly this is because I've been overseas but even when I'm home the motivation just isn't there.

Largely because the rules are just bad, and getting worse. They're inconsistent, hard to follow, sometimes too broad, sometimes too granular and just not fun.

So yes. I believe that attracting and retaining better rules writers would sell me more products, get me to play more games, and get more revenue to GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blastaar wrote:


Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


And from Hewitt's tweets we know that moving from store manager to game designer was a step down financially.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 06:29:39


Post by: lord marcus


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Rihgu wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blastaar wrote:


Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


And from Hewitt's tweets we know that moving from store manager to game designer was a step down financially.


Which makes little sense, to be honest


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 07:49:58


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


 lord marcus wrote:


Which makes little sense, to be honest


I think it's a question of supply and demand. Every GW employee would like to be in the game developer job. So GW has made it a policy of hiring qualified people who will work for the lowest salary possible.

Rather than say, the best qualified people.

Now a lot of the problems in rules writing is driven by marketing, rules writers have to write for the models, and write to sell special dice, cards etc. As well as tight deadlines and the need to serve 30 years of legacy units and models.

But even with all of that, I can't imagine anyone looking at the current Space Marine codex (for example) and feeling professional pride.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 09:14:51


Post by: Slipspace


 Grot 6 wrote:
Jobs like that are Stepping stones.

If you think you need to stay there, keep drinking the kool aid. You go in, get your feet wet in the chosen profession, then move on when you've had your fill and move on to something better with a good letter of recommendation. (If even that.)

Make your mark, and move on. Don't cry about it, don't post p!@#$y little passive aggressive Twits, don't talk about it. Keep your mouth closed, take it like a gentleman, and continue.

You go into a job, one of the pieces of information you might want to ask, or find out- before you even apply- What is the Mean/ Medium of salary? How is this position compared to other companies positions, What can I make, what do I need to do to earn bonuses, are there any other bennies, do I get a car / parking/ gas money/ bus money, etc... Do I get other intangibles to take the place of the low salary, such as open bar, free chow, company trips, etc.

This is GW. They don't care about workers, if you haven't figured it out yet. They want you to drink the kulture kool aid, keep your mouth shut, and smile as you cry on the inside.

Madness? THIS IS GW!


Then maybe it's a good idea not to indulge GW in drinking their Kool-Aid. All you've done here is recite exactly that, effectively giving the company a free pass because it's just how things are, while condescendingly assuming a whole bunch of things about people in those types of jobs. It's hardly unreasonable to call out a company making huge profits off the back of its creative employees for barely paying those employees a living wage. One of the things that allows companies to keep salaries low is by making it difficult to find out how much your peers earn, which is why they love it when people don't discuss salaries.

Many can't treat it jobs as a stepping stone. They need to be paid fairly now, not some unknown time in the future. When a company says "take it like a gentleman" or some other equally stupid phrase, what they really mean is don't question our authority because we have no good reason for keeping pay and conditions so bad. Having a whole bunch of workers who are "crying on the inside" because of your corporate policies is a stupid way to run a business and everyone's lives and productivity improves if you improve pay from a level where key employees are barely making a living wage.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 09:45:33


Post by: ccs


 privateer4hire wrote:
Kinda surprised that they don’t have better NDA in place to prevent this type of information from surfacing. And then I remember that it probably won’t change a single person’s buying plans.


{shrugs} Good rules, bad rules, or something in-between.... GW makes its $ off me by selling me great looking models. Even during periods when I'm not playing any of their games.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 12:19:19


Post by: kirotheavenger


The "we can't pay you a penny more than £21k, just physically impossible" then hiring a guy on £26k to replace them is so distastefully typical.

At my work someone left for a similar reason, so they had to go a temp contractor to fill the roll at 4x the rate. ...Guess who had started working for that contractor and took the role


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 12:20:11


Post by: Ian Sturrock


I'm a bit disappointed at the attitude from a few, that it's somehow OK for GW to massively underpay a highly talented, very successful rules writer.

Make no mistake that £20K pa, or a bit more, in Nottingham in 2017, is very very low pay.

I can add a couple more data points. I've never worked for GW but have applied for jobs there around 4-5 times, and twice got to the salary discussion stage.

1) 2007, sub-editor job. I still have the email from them, after I asked for salary info before taking the train to Nottingham at my own expense, confirming the starting salary as £23,000. Immediately after the interview they offered me the job... at £18,000. I was outraged and said "no". Obviously. Such complete bs.

2) 2021, lead game designer job. I got to the 2nd stage of the interview process, which was a fairly involved task, so again I asked about salary before I started said task. They said £50,000, so I did the task. Didn't get the job; I have a feeling it went internally. Having followed the Twitter thread, I suspect it went internally to someone on maybe £28K and they gave them a rise to £32K, something like that!


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 12:39:07


Post by: Nurglitch


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I continue to buy GW models and books but have not played a game in a few years or even bought rule books. Partly this is because I've been overseas but even when I'm home the motivation just isn't there.

Largely because the rules are just bad, and getting worse. They're inconsistent, hard to follow, sometimes too broad, sometimes too granular and just not fun.

So yes. I believe that attracting and retaining better rules writers would sell me more products, get me to play more games, and get more revenue to GW.

I've also been buying models while being repulsed by the rules for the last couple of years too. The gentleman in question, however, pointed out that GW has no incentive to make these better rules:

lagoon83 wrote:A good game designer would see that the company's need is for an ever-changing meta, which means some level of imbalance is a) inevitable and b) desired.

And that's without even getting into the fact that AOS and 40k are inherently nigh-impossible to balance.

That's without getting into usability and other dark arts.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 12:54:22


Post by: Gert


The biggest issue with this for me is that I very much appreciate stability and surety when I go for a job. I can't finance or plan a move across half the country if I don't even know what my salary will be and the fact the culture of GW (and most corporations) discourages people to discuss this isn't great. I love the hobby and would love to work with GW but also being able to eat is pretty useful.
Seconding the point about Mowazer's Hierarchy of Needs as well.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 13:20:13


Post by: Gene St. Ealer




From the above:

(Also, I’ve heard on the grapevine that some people I used to work with are really upset that I wrote what I wrote. I hope this goes some way to redressing that, because that makes me feel awful. I felt like I was standing up for them, but I can see how it might have come across as bashing them because they’re part of the company I was complaining about.)


This makes me sad/pisses me off a little. The OP "rant" was pretty clearly not blaming the GW rank and file (whether they made more money than OP or not.) For a company that seems to fancy itself as progressive, you'd think worker solidarity wouldn't be a foreign concept and the GW insiders would feel sympathetic to James, not pissed. The only person who I'd think has a right to be pissed is the person who sets the salaries; and presumably, that person is under pressure from more senior management in turn. You can criticize the part without criticizing the whole, that's a pretty elementary concept...


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 13:31:26


Post by: kirotheavenger


I think it's complicated by the fact that people don't like being told they're being paid less, it makes them feel like a chump for taking such a job and sticking with it.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 13:41:31


Post by: gorgon


Blastaar wrote:
Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


However, this is how it works with many fields, including creative ones. The hours might be long in addition to the low pay. But you don't stay in that job. They're temporary. You use the company to learn and pad out your resume, and then promptly take that training elsewhere. It's mutual exploitation. The company usually understands that there will be a lot of churn in those roles...and are usually okay with it because there's more demand for those jobs than supply. I'm sure the demand for roles at GW are very high, which allows them to pay a very low wage.







Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 13:49:54


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 lagoon83 wrote:
 BertBert wrote:
@lagoon83:
On a more positive note, would you mind telling us which of the rulesets you've worked on in your time with GW is dearest to your heart?


I don't wanna derail the thread, so I'll just answer this one. Probably Silver Tower, although Titanicus is a close second


Just to say, having attended a couple of the seminars you have done at shows you are an oddly good public speaker. Maybe go into ted talks with a theory of playing games is all employees need instead of salary? Better than leaning


Automatically Appended Next Post:
beast_gts wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
I also wouldn't be surprised if things like IT are afterthoughts for GW. They're caught between the creative part of the business and the out-of-touch higher-ups who probably think their friend's teenage son who's pretty smart with "computer stuff" can run their IT for them. I mean it's just turning it off then on again, right?
Well, one of the higher-ups wife got the contract to redesign the website a few years ago...


Tom Kirby's wife (well not just her sitting in a room coding, but her company) got £4 million to delete all the great content on the site and start over with what you can basically see today. Maybe the back end for sales is amazing?



Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 14:01:39


Post by: Sarouan


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


From the above:

(Also, I’ve heard on the grapevine that some people I used to work with are really upset that I wrote what I wrote. I hope this goes some way to redressing that, because that makes me feel awful. I felt like I was standing up for them, but I can see how it might have come across as bashing them because they’re part of the company I was complaining about.)


This makes me sad/pisses me off a little. The OP "rant" was pretty clearly not blaming the GW rank and file (whether they made more money than OP or not.) For a company that seems to fancy itself as progressive, you'd think worker solidarity wouldn't be a foreign concept and the GW insiders would feel sympathetic to James, not pissed. The only person who I'd think has a right to be pissed is the person who sets the salaries; and presumably, that person is under pressure from more senior management in turn. You can criticize the part without criticizing the whole, that's a pretty elementary concept...



I think it has more to do with people taking James' tweets as justifications for their "GW is Evil" crusade and thus upsetting those still working at GW fearing they'll get a backlash to go under the fire of those people, even though they have nothing to do with it...because they're looking to bash on GW and whoever is working for them, they don't care about nuance.

Feels natural to me that they're upset one of their friend is dropping such a bomb going viral, with - like James said - not so much nuance as he did in the long post you can read in the link above. Don't think it has much to do with the question on fair salaries.

But people looking only to bash on GW don't care about that long post. They only care about the not-so-nuanced tweets, because they're more suitable to consolidate their beliefs that "GW is Evil".

Even though James said that's not his own perception in the long post...


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 14:18:14


Post by: lagoon83


Sarouan wrote:

I think it has more to do with people taking James' tweets as justifications for their "GW is Evil" crusade and thus upsetting those still working at GW fearing they'll get a backlash to go under the fire of those people, even though they have nothing to do with it...because they're looking to bash on GW and whoever is working for them, they don't care about nuance.

Feels natural to me that they're upset one of their friend is dropping such a bomb going viral, with - like James said - not so much nuance as he did in the long post you can read in the link above. Don't think it has much to do with the question on fair salaries.

But people looking only to bash on GW don't care about that long post. They only care about the not-so-nuanced tweets, because they're more suitable to consolidate their beliefs that "GW is Evil".

Even though James said that's not his own perception in the long post...


It's this, yep.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 14:48:35


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


I can only think of one example of the "GW is Evil" brigade targeting individuals with their ire, and it's people pissed about good/bad codices. This isn't the same as that at all; you can't look at this situation and blame it on Mat Ward or Robin Cruddace or any other worker bee.

GW is a big corporation, they'll weather any bad press over this without any issue.

Plus, you guys said it already, the "GW is Evil" crusaders will continue to crusade regardless of anything. That doesn't mean we can't say GW has a employee salary problem or GW is immune to criticism from everybody else. I can tell you guys (contrary to the blog post), in industries where competition exists, wages are a lot fairer. This isn't some fundamental flaw of capitalism or something.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 14:55:30


Post by: Nurglitch


I think the crazy brigade screaming nonsense about GW is a separate problem.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 15:19:01


Post by: Las


I feel for the guy. He is a legend, but it doesn't seem like he approached his compensation in quite the right way. He shouldn't have been surprised that the likelihood of a raise occurred when the chance of him moving departments came up.

The only reason a company will pay you more is if it costs them less to do so than to look for a replacement or lose your contribution. It's not about how long you've been there, it's not about the work you're doing (at least not directly). If they know you're going to stay whether they pay you more or not, they won't pay you more. From his tweets (admittedly not a a complete picture of events/the person), it didn't seem like he was going anywhere.

Every "I need more money" needs to backed by a reality that it will be better for them if they do so. It sucks, but it's life.

EDIT: That said, the salary they paid him was far, far too low to begin with. Yikes.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 16:26:55


Post by: Mr. Grey


I said this in a similar reddit thread, but it's my hope that this discussion coming to light from a former GW employee would give current designers and rules writers a chance to compare salaries and possibly collectively bargain for better pay.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 16:35:11


Post by: Racerguy180


Nurglitch wrote:I think the crazy brigade screaming nonsense about GW is a separate problem.


Not a problem, a cancer that needs to be excised promptly!


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 16:35:35


Post by: yukishiro1


 Las wrote:
I feel for the guy. He is a legend, but it doesn't seem like he approached his compensation in quite the right way. He shouldn't have been surprised that the likelihood of a raise occurred when the chance of him moving departments came up.

The only reason a company will pay you more is if it costs them less to do so than to look for a replacement or lose your contribution. It's not about how long you've been there, it's not about the work you're doing (at least not directly). If they know you're going to stay whether they pay you more or not, they won't pay you more. From his tweets (admittedly not a a complete picture of events/the person), it didn't seem like he was going anywhere.

Every "I need more money" needs to backed by a reality that it will be better for them if they do so. It sucks, but it's life.

EDIT: That said, the salary they paid him was far, far too low to begin with. Yikes.


It's the hypocrisy of this that rankles so much. GW constantly tells its employees that they always need to put the needs of the product first, that it's about more than a paycheck, that it's about going above and beyond, that working for GW is a calling, not just a job...and then they turn around and act in the most blatantly self-interested way possible when it comes to maximizing their own profits, even to the extent of paying people barely above a poverty wage to work for them, then repeatedly refusing their attempts to get well-deserved raises based on the quality of their work. GW talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk. If they were just upfront with their employees about being a soulless corporate behemoth that treats its workers as disposable pawns in its quest to make ever more money, it'd be distasteful, but at least it'd be honest. Telling GW employees they need to be hard-nosed about compensation because they're a disposable tool to be valued via hands-off cold, rational economic calculation, not a valued team member may be true, but it also goes against every single aspect of the corporate culture they've been immersed in.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 16:44:17


Post by: Gert


I disagree with this whole "you should know that a company won't treat you well" idea because it's not a universal truth. My first job was OK but did terribly when it came to respecting concerns brought up by me about the abusive behaviour of an adult colleague and they handled it so poorly that when the individual left I was essentially blamed for their departure despite being 17 years old and in my first ever job.
My current job, while a pain and very stressful, took my mental health very seriously and was very generous with both recovery time and phased return to work. Similarly, ​when I caught Covid and got hit pretty hard, they were very chilled about making sure I was 100% before coming back to work and were even offering extra breaks if I needed them.

TLDR, nobody should expect to be treated poorly by their employer nor should they have to put up with it if they are.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 16:53:41


Post by: Las


yukishiro1 wrote:
 Las wrote:
I feel for the guy. He is a legend, but it doesn't seem like he approached his compensation in quite the right way. He shouldn't have been surprised that the likelihood of a raise occurred when the chance of him moving departments came up.

The only reason a company will pay you more is if it costs them less to do so than to look for a replacement or lose your contribution. It's not about how long you've been there, it's not about the work you're doing (at least not directly). If they know you're going to stay whether they pay you more or not, they won't pay you more. From his tweets (admittedly not a a complete picture of events/the person), it didn't seem like he was going anywhere.

Every "I need more money" needs to backed by a reality that it will be better for them if they do so. It sucks, but it's life.

EDIT: That said, the salary they paid him was far, far too low to begin with. Yikes.


It's the hypocrisy of this that rankles so much. GW constantly tells its employees that they always need to put the needs of the product first, that it's about more than a paycheck, that it's about going above and beyond, that working for GW is a calling, not just a job...and then they turn around and act in the most blatantly self-interested way possible when it comes to maximizing their own profits, even to the extent of paying people barely above a poverty wage to work for them, then repeatedly refusing their attempts to get well-deserved raises based on the quality of their work. GW talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk. If they were just upfront with their employees about being a soulless corporate behemoth that treats its workers as disposable pawns in its quest to make ever more money, it'd be distasteful, but at least it'd be honest. Telling GW employees they need to be hard-nosed about compensation because they're a disposable tool to be valued via hands-off cold, rational economic calculation, not a valued team member may be true, but it also goes against every single aspect of the corporate culture they've been immersed in.


Don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100% on the hypocrisy. The thing is, though, every worker owes it to themselves to be savvy. The company is not your friend. It never will be. It will always sublimate your needs over the needs of the organization. Without question. Never take a company's dedication to culture at its word. Judge it on merit and action.

 Gert wrote:
I disagree with this whole "you should know that a company won't treat you well" idea because it's not a universal truth. My first job was OK but did terribly when it came to respecting concerns brought up by me about the abusive behaviour of an adult colleague and they handled it so poorly that when the individual left I was essentially blamed for their departure despite being 17 years old and in my first ever job.
My current job, while a pain and very stressful, took my mental health very seriously and was very generous with both recovery time and phased return to work. Similarly, ​when I caught Covid and got hit pretty hard, they were very chilled about making sure I was 100% before coming back to work and were even offering extra breaks if I needed them.

TLDR, nobody should expect to be treated poorly by their employer nor should they have to put up with it if they are.


Of course not all companies are equal in terms of how they treat workers. However, as a worker, you will always be better off if you play to and understand the truth about the relationship you are engaged in with your employer. If you don't like what you've got, literally your only recourse is to either demand more on pain of leaving the organization, or go somewhere else that will provide what you want.

Someday, we might have stronger collective bargaining protections in the west again, but until then this what we have.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 17:00:51


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Las wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
 Las wrote:
I feel for the guy. He is a legend, but it doesn't seem like he approached his compensation in quite the right way. He shouldn't have been surprised that the likelihood of a raise occurred when the chance of him moving departments came up.

The only reason a company will pay you more is if it costs them less to do so than to look for a replacement or lose your contribution. It's not about how long you've been there, it's not about the work you're doing (at least not directly). If they know you're going to stay whether they pay you more or not, they won't pay you more. From his tweets (admittedly not a a complete picture of events/the person), it didn't seem like he was going anywhere.

Every "I need more money" needs to backed by a reality that it will be better for them if they do so. It sucks, but it's life.

EDIT: That said, the salary they paid him was far, far too low to begin with. Yikes.


It's the hypocrisy of this that rankles so much. GW constantly tells its employees that they always need to put the needs of the product first, that it's about more than a paycheck, that it's about going above and beyond, that working for GW is a calling, not just a job...and then they turn around and act in the most blatantly self-interested way possible when it comes to maximizing their own profits, even to the extent of paying people barely above a poverty wage to work for them, then repeatedly refusing their attempts to get well-deserved raises based on the quality of their work. GW talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk. If they were just upfront with their employees about being a soulless corporate behemoth that treats its workers as disposable pawns in its quest to make ever more money, it'd be distasteful, but at least it'd be honest. Telling GW employees they need to be hard-nosed about compensation because they're a disposable tool to be valued via hands-off cold, rational economic calculation, not a valued team member may be true, but it also goes against every single aspect of the corporate culture they've been immersed in.


Don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100% on the hypocrisy. The thing is, though, every worker owes it to themselves to be savvy. The company is not your friend. It never will be. It will always sublimate your needs over the needs of the organization. Without question. Never take a company's dedication to culture at its word. Judge it on merit and action.

 Gert wrote:
I disagree with this whole "you should know that a company won't treat you well" idea because it's not a universal truth. My first job was OK but did terribly when it came to respecting concerns brought up by me about the abusive behaviour of an adult colleague and they handled it so poorly that when the individual left I was essentially blamed for their departure despite being 17 years old and in my first ever job.
My current job, while a pain and very stressful, took my mental health very seriously and was very generous with both recovery time and phased return to work. Similarly, ​when I caught Covid and got hit pretty hard, they were very chilled about making sure I was 100% before coming back to work and were even offering extra breaks if I needed them.

TLDR, nobody should expect to be treated poorly by their employer nor should they have to put up with it if they are.


Of course not all companies are equal in terms of how they treat workers. However, as a worker, you will always be better off if you play to and understand the truth about the relationship you are engaged in with your employer. If you don't like what you've got, literally your only recourse is to either demand more on pain of leaving the organization, or go somewhere else that will provide what you want.

Someday, we might have stronger collective bargaining protections in the west again, but until then this what we have.


Yeah, I loved the part in the blog where he was like "GW is serious about culture because they talk about culture a lot". Feth, sorry, but that's naive. In my experience, companies that harp on and on about culture are most likely to have rampant culture issues.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 17:09:56


Post by: yukishiro1


That was a joke he was making about how they're all talk and no substance. Which is easy to see from where he is now, but not so easy to see when you're immersed in it and your colleagues have all drunk the same kool-aid you're being urged to drink.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 17:10:08


Post by: Nurglitch


Racerguy180 wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:I think the crazy brigade screaming nonsense about GW is a separate problem.


Not a problem, a cancer that needs to be excised promptly!


Meh, Dakka's house, Dakka's rules.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 17:22:01


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Lord of Deeds wrote:


Remember change starts with you!

In addition to game developers, here are some other companies who you probably also want to avoid due to their alleged sub-par compensation and inhumane treatment of employees or use child and even slave labor.

Apple
Microsoft
Samsung
LG
De Beers
Toyota
GM
Ford
Fiat Chrysler
Daimler Benz
BMW
Tesla

Most Grocery store chains and retailers (Walmart, Kroger, Macys, etc.)
Almost every major clothing manufacturer (Nike, Adidas, etc.)
Every fast food and convenience store chain (McDonalds, Starbucks, Yum Brands, etc.)



Ironically in the context of this discussion, James would have got paid more by most of the companies you have listed above.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 17:23:08


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


yukishiro1 wrote:
That was a joke he was making about how they're all talk and no substance. Which is easy to see from where he is now, but not so easy to see when you're immersed in it and your colleagues have all drunk the same kool-aid you're being urged to drink.


Right -- but my point was that this blog was written at least partially to placate those still at GW presumably still drinking the kool aid. Again, it's baffling to me. You'd think the company that started in part by satirizing Thatcher in the 80s would have some understanding of the importance of labor solidarity.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 17:25:15


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Azreal13 wrote:


However, for GW giving their models a context for use is a vital part of their money making process, and without it their cashflow falters. For the product they design, make and sell, games are crucial. It's right there in the name.



I think they have minimised the quality in the games part as much as they can, but still without the games they are dead in the water. The models aren't the quality associated with collector stuff like Gundams and are designed for bulk purchase (outside of stuff like BloodBowl). GW would love it to be just about the models, and 99% of the time it probably is, but without them that 99% would drop like a stone as we would be playing other games and no doubt buying those companies models.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 17:37:55


Post by: Azreal13


The_Real_Chris wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:


However, for GW giving their models a context for use is a vital part of their money making process, and without it their cashflow falters. For the product they design, make and sell, games are crucial. It's right there in the name.



I think they have minimised the quality in the games part as much as they can, but still without the games they are dead in the water. The models aren't the quality associated with collector stuff like Gundams and are designed for bulk purchase (outside of stuff like BloodBowl). GW would love it to be just about the models, and 99% of the time it probably is, but without them that 99% would drop like a stone as we would be playing other games and no doubt buying those companies models.


Sales training is littered with adages and acronyms, ultimately their most useful purpose is to allow other sales people to spot the bullshitters because they're the ones who regurgitate them like they mean anything, when often they're not nearly nuanced enough or basically only work in isolated instances and have no relevance to someone trying to create repeat business rather than just close one sale.

That said, one of those, "sell the sizzle, not the sausage" just fits GW's approach nicely. The games are the sizzle that allow them to shift high volumes of highly processed pork.

(Ok, so it isn't a perfect fit. )


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 18:03:06


Post by: Blastaar


 gorgon wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


However, this is how it works with many fields, including creative ones. The hours might be long in addition to the low pay. But you don't stay in that job. They're temporary. You use the company to learn and pad out your resume, and then promptly take that training elsewhere. It's mutual exploitation. The company usually understands that there will be a lot of churn in those roles...and are usually okay with it because there's more demand for those jobs than supply. I'm sure the demand for roles at GW are very high, which allows them to pay a very low wage.







"This is how it is" does not make it right. Creatives being underpaid despite the fact that their work is immensely profitable is especially egregious. People should be paid fairly for the work they perform. Period. Workers need to organize and stand up for themselves.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 18:50:21


Post by: Las


Blastaar wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


However, this is how it works with many fields, including creative ones. The hours might be long in addition to the low pay. But you don't stay in that job. They're temporary. You use the company to learn and pad out your resume, and then promptly take that training elsewhere. It's mutual exploitation. The company usually understands that there will be a lot of churn in those roles...and are usually okay with it because there's more demand for those jobs than supply. I'm sure the demand for roles at GW are very high, which allows them to pay a very low wage.


"This is how it is" does not make it right. Creatives being underpaid despite the fact that their work is immensely profitable is especially egregious. People should be paid fairly for the work they perform. Period. Workers need to organize and stand up for themselves.


He didn't say it was right, he was giving very good advice. On your second point, what exactly is fair pay for a job that thousands of people will do to the same or comparable standard for the same or less money tomorrow?

High demand, low supply jobs will always pay poorly.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 18:55:39


Post by: Blastaar


 Las wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


However, this is how it works with many fields, including creative ones. The hours might be long in addition to the low pay. But you don't stay in that job. They're temporary. You use the company to learn and pad out your resume, and then promptly take that training elsewhere. It's mutual exploitation. The company usually understands that there will be a lot of churn in those roles...and are usually okay with it because there's more demand for those jobs than supply. I'm sure the demand for roles at GW are very high, which allows them to pay a very low wage.


"This is how it is" does not make it right. Creatives being underpaid despite the fact that their work is immensely profitable is especially egregious. People should be paid fairly for the work they perform. Period. Workers need to organize and stand up for themselves.


He didn't say it was right, he was giving very good advice. On your second point, what exactly is fair pay for a job that thousands of people will do to the same or comparable standard for the same or less money tomorrow?

High demand, low supply jobs will always pay poorly.


That's capitalist thinking. Supply has nothing to do with a living wage and the value of a person's labor.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 18:59:49


Post by: Nurglitch


It has plenty to do with finding an income in today's regulated market rather than the utopia in your head.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 19:02:44


Post by: kodos


we europeans are to socialist anyway

yet having a higher minimum wage, unions etc. helps with that

just because there are many people searching for a job does not mean you can get away with paying less


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 19:16:24


Post by: the_scotsman


 gorgon wrote:
It's mutual exploitation.



No it's just regular, one-sided exploitation. "do it for the exposure' is a laughable, demonstrable myth, there is no golden, stable, solid career at the other end of any path that starts with unsustainably low-paid or no-paid jobs that you have to 'do for the exposure'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Las wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


However, this is how it works with many fields, including creative ones. The hours might be long in addition to the low pay. But you don't stay in that job. They're temporary. You use the company to learn and pad out your resume, and then promptly take that training elsewhere. It's mutual exploitation. The company usually understands that there will be a lot of churn in those roles...and are usually okay with it because there's more demand for those jobs than supply. I'm sure the demand for roles at GW are very high, which allows them to pay a very low wage.


"This is how it is" does not make it right. Creatives being underpaid despite the fact that their work is immensely profitable is especially egregious. People should be paid fairly for the work they perform. Period. Workers need to organize and stand up for themselves.


He didn't say it was right, he was giving very good advice. On your second point, what exactly is fair pay for a job that thousands of people will do to the same or comparable standard for the same or less money tomorrow?

High demand, low supply jobs will always pay poorly.


If you're OK with the quality of the output of those high-demand careers being absolute gak because the people working them are dealing with the stress of being in a poverty job, that system works fine.

I was over here thinking that most people were frustrated with how obviously gakky the products coming out of the entertainment industry, music industry, games industry, etc were, to the point where it's pretty much common practice to track down the poor sods who work those jobs and dox them/threaten to murder them/harass them off the internet because the video game they got paid 10$ an hour to work 80 hours a week on released and, surprise surprise, was as full of bugs and problems as you'd expect the product of someone being slowly worked to death and starved to be.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 19:20:49


Post by: yukishiro1


It would only be mutual exploitation if the company wasn't getting its money worth out of you in the meantime, which they are - better than their money's worth, since they're using the "it'll be good for your resume!" nonsense to underpay you.

You're not exploiting a company by working for them. They are exploiting you by selling you some nonsense about how it'll look good on your resume to justify not paying you what your work is worth.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 19:34:54


Post by: Sarouan


 lagoon83 wrote:
Sarouan wrote:

I think it has more to do with people taking James' tweets as justifications for their "GW is Evil" crusade and thus upsetting those still working at GW fearing they'll get a backlash to go under the fire of those people, even though they have nothing to do with it...because they're looking to bash on GW and whoever is working for them, they don't care about nuance.

Feels natural to me that they're upset one of their friend is dropping such a bomb going viral, with - like James said - not so much nuance as he did in the long post you can read in the link above. Don't think it has much to do with the question on fair salaries.

But people looking only to bash on GW don't care about that long post. They only care about the not-so-nuanced tweets, because they're more suitable to consolidate their beliefs that "GW is Evil".

Even though James said that's not his own perception in the long post...


It's this, yep.


The sad thing is that between the link was posted in this topic and the time I posted this here, you can already see that it doesn't matter what you wrote in your blog, in the end...the same "GW is Evil" crusaders keep adressing this as GW being the source of all evil...while you specifically targetted GW managers and made the nuance...

Hope you don't have too many regrets posting those tweets...


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 19:35:48


Post by: Tyran


You can exploit a company if such company provides training. Most engineering companies pretty much work on the assumption that university is worthless when it comes to technical skills and they will need to train their newcomers.
But when it comes to creative work? yeah you are pretty much doomed. Either work for a large corporation that will exploit you or try to create your own product that 99% of the time will crash and burn.

As for the root of the problem? GW, like any large corporation, is an inherently a sociopathic entity ruled by the laws of capitalism. The real root of the issue is the lack of minimum wage standards that ensure a living wage, but that is getting into politics.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 19:36:16


Post by: Las


 the_scotsman wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Las wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


However, this is how it works with many fields, including creative ones. The hours might be long in addition to the low pay. But you don't stay in that job. They're temporary. You use the company to learn and pad out your resume, and then promptly take that training elsewhere. It's mutual exploitation. The company usually understands that there will be a lot of churn in those roles...and are usually okay with it because there's more demand for those jobs than supply. I'm sure the demand for roles at GW are very high, which allows them to pay a very low wage.


"This is how it is" does not make it right. Creatives being underpaid despite the fact that their work is immensely profitable is especially egregious. People should be paid fairly for the work they perform. Period. Workers need to organize and stand up for themselves.


He didn't say it was right, he was giving very good advice. On your second point, what exactly is fair pay for a job that thousands of people will do to the same or comparable standard for the same or less money tomorrow?

High demand, low supply jobs will always pay poorly.


If you're OK with the quality of the output of those high-demand careers being absolute gak because the people working them are dealing with the stress of being in a poverty job, that system works fine.

I was over here thinking that most people were frustrated with how obviously gakky the products coming out of the entertainment industry, music industry, games industry, etc were, to the point where it's pretty much common practice to track down the poor sods who work those jobs and dox them/threaten to murder them/harass them off the internet because the video game they got paid 10$ an hour to work 80 hours a week on released and, surprise surprise, was as full of bugs and problems as you'd expect the product of someone being slowly worked to death and starved to be.


To be frank: the fact that people keep paying for these products at the insane volume that they are makes it fair to say that yes, people are largely OK with the quality. The internet trollery you're talking about is absolutely dwarfed by the staggeringly large population of quiet, paying customers.

Until there is a competitive edge to changing course, they will not do so. They are currently benefitting from an enormous, cheap labour pool of over-educated college grads and hugely profitable products that do not require significant labour investment to produce.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 20:07:54


Post by: techsoldaten


 Las wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

If you're OK with the quality of the output of those high-demand careers being absolute gak because the people working them are dealing with the stress of being in a poverty job, that system works fine.

I was over here thinking that most people were frustrated with how obviously gakky the products coming out of the entertainment industry, music industry, games industry, etc were, to the point where it's pretty much common practice to track down the poor sods who work those jobs and dox them/threaten to murder them/harass them off the internet because the video game they got paid 10$ an hour to work 80 hours a week on released and, surprise surprise, was as full of bugs and problems as you'd expect the product of someone being slowly worked to death and starved to be.


To be frank: the fact that people keep paying for these products at the insane volume that they are makes it fair to say that yes, people are largely OK with the quality. The internet trollery you're talking about is absolutely dwarfed by the staggeringly large population of quiet, paying customers.

Until there is a competitive edge to changing course, they will not do so. They are currently benefitting from an enormous, cheap labour pool of over-educated college grads and hugely profitable products that do not require significant labour investment to produce.

Capitalist Oppressor here.

My experience: Sales and Administration receive the lion's share of compensation, both in direct labor costs and incentives.

It's not so much about supply and demand, we live with a globalist economy. Knowing how to build a supply chain, source component parts to deliver finished product, generate awareness and achieve fulfillment are valued more highly than concept (creative) work.

Creates a perverse incentive to treat creative types as replaceable commodities. Will remain that way until the labor market adapts to SCM, which will be a generational shift.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 20:18:13


Post by: gorgon


 techsoldaten wrote:
Capitalist Oppressor here.

My experience: Sales and Administration receive the lion's share of compensation, both in direct labor costs and incentives.

It's not so much about supply and demand, we live with a globalist economy. Knowing how to build a supply chain, source component parts to deliver finished product, generate awareness and achieve fulfillment are valued more highly than concept (creative) work.

Creates a perverse incentive to treat creative types as replaceable commodities. Will remain that way until the labor market adapts to SCM, which will be a generational shift.


Another thing...in creative fields, TALENT matters a lot. If you have more of it, it's probably going to show, and you're going to be more valuable. If you're just okay...you're more disposable. And frankly there are many more of the latter than the former. It's not about resumes and box-checking. Any potential employer of mine is going to want to see things I've done and will judge me on those things, potentially to my face in an interview. Creative fields aren't for people with fragile egos.

I feel like an entire generation got their heads filled with ideas about doing what you love and success will come. If you want to succeed, don't do what you love...do what you're GOOD at that you can get PAID for.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 20:25:51


Post by: Ouze


The_Real_Chris wrote:
Tom Kirby's wife (well not just her sitting in a room coding, but her company) got £4 million to delete all the great content on the site and start over with what you can basically see today. Maybe the back end for sales is amazing?


For that price, they managed to produce literally the only sales site on the internet I have seen that requires dumping your entire cart when you switch the country (that it incorrectly assigned you).

The bit sellers that are literally 2 people in a garage have websites that can more smoothly switch countries and currencies.

A remarkable piece of grift.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 20:53:37


Post by: MaxT


Blastaar wrote:
That's capitalist thinking. Supply has nothing to do with a living wage and the value of a person's labor.


I hate to break it to you but the uk is a capitalist country. Don’t see many tabletop games companies coming out of Cuba or North Korea.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 21:02:56


Post by: Tyran


Space Kim fights the swarms of the Capitalist Devourer would make an awesome tabletop game.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 21:03:37


Post by: Las


 techsoldaten wrote:
 Las wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

If you're OK with the quality of the output of those high-demand careers being absolute gak because the people working them are dealing with the stress of being in a poverty job, that system works fine.

I was over here thinking that most people were frustrated with how obviously gakky the products coming out of the entertainment industry, music industry, games industry, etc were, to the point where it's pretty much common practice to track down the poor sods who work those jobs and dox them/threaten to murder them/harass them off the internet because the video game they got paid 10$ an hour to work 80 hours a week on released and, surprise surprise, was as full of bugs and problems as you'd expect the product of someone being slowly worked to death and starved to be.


To be frank: the fact that people keep paying for these products at the insane volume that they are makes it fair to say that yes, people are largely OK with the quality. The internet trollery you're talking about is absolutely dwarfed by the staggeringly large population of quiet, paying customers.

Until there is a competitive edge to changing course, they will not do so. They are currently benefitting from an enormous, cheap labour pool of over-educated college grads and hugely profitable products that do not require significant labour investment to produce.

Capitalist Oppressor here.

My experience: Sales and Administration receive the lion's share of compensation, both in direct labor costs and incentives.

It's not so much about supply and demand, we live with a globalist economy. Knowing how to build a supply chain, source component parts to deliver finished product, generate awareness and achieve fulfillment are valued more highly than concept (creative) work.

Creates a perverse incentive to treat creative types as replaceable commodities. Will remain that way until the labor market adapts to SCM, which will be a generational shift.


That's the point though, isn't? So long as the labour market retains an outsized supply of creatives compared to the demand for their labour, they will inevitably be replaceable and cheap. I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the labour pool of qualified S&A labour is far smaller relative to demand than creatives.

I'm curious and interested in your last point. Could you explain what you mean by the labour market adapting to supply chain management? (I'm assuming that's the acronym)


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 21:04:08


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


Sarouan wrote:
 lagoon83 wrote:
Sarouan wrote:

I think it has more to do with people taking James' tweets as justifications for their "GW is Evil" crusade and thus upsetting those still working at GW fearing they'll get a backlash to go under the fire of those people, even though they have nothing to do with it...because they're looking to bash on GW and whoever is working for them, they don't care about nuance.

Feels natural to me that they're upset one of their friend is dropping such a bomb going viral, with - like James said - not so much nuance as he did in the long post you can read in the link above. Don't think it has much to do with the question on fair salaries.

But people looking only to bash on GW don't care about that long post. They only care about the not-so-nuanced tweets, because they're more suitable to consolidate their beliefs that "GW is Evil".

Even though James said that's not his own perception in the long post...


It's this, yep.


The sad thing is that between the link was posted in this topic and the time I posted this here, you can already see that it doesn't matter what you wrote in your blog, in the end...the same "GW is Evil" crusaders keep adressing this as GW being the source of all evil...while you specifically targetted GW managers and made the nuance...

Hope you don't have too many regrets posting those tweets...


This thread's gonna get closed soon, but sorry, this just isn't true. I don't see anybody in this discussion who is reducing this to "GW is Evil therefore X". You are the one doing the shoehorning.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 21:23:48


Post by: yukishiro1


Yep, that's a pretty egregious straw man.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 23:14:07


Post by: RedSarge


I'm legitimately po'd that GW paid these guys so little. [I visit Dakka daily but don't log in]

What justifies Roundtree making 1.34 Million CAD, in this day and age other than 'posterity'?
It's good to see ANOTHER bonus for the key-timers again, this is what.. the second bonus since EVER?

Man, just.. erks me! I got a room dedicated to the stuff. What about dedication to proper payment? You think they paid guys like Chambers, Hoare, Jervis and Bligh that low?

:(


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/28 23:26:59


Post by: Eldarsif


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Does anyone know if sculptors are well paid or is that considered a labor of love as well?


Considering that most of the sculptors are now digital and their skill can translate into other sectors such as digital game development and movies I would be surprised if they don't get a bit better pay.

It takes time and money to train a good digital sculptor that is familiar with you processes. To pay them subpar and risk them leaving is a risky proposition, especially for a studio like GW that relies incredibly upon their sculptors to make new models.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 00:47:28


Post by: techsoldaten


 Las wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Capitalist Oppressor here.

My experience: Sales and Administration receive the lion's share of compensation, both in direct labor costs and incentives.

It's not so much about supply and demand, we live with a globalist economy. Knowing how to build a supply chain, source component parts to deliver finished product, generate awareness and achieve fulfillment are valued more highly than concept (creative) work.

Creates a perverse incentive to treat creative types as replaceable commodities. Will remain that way until the labor market adapts to SCM, which will be a generational shift.


That's the point though, isn't? So long as the labour market retains an outsized supply of creatives compared to the demand for their labour, they will inevitably be replaceable and cheap. I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the labour pool of qualified S&A labour is far smaller relative to demand than creatives.

I'm curious and interested in your last point. Could you explain what you mean by the labour market adapting to supply chain management? (I'm assuming that's the acronym)


The combination of skills and abilities required to operate a successful sales program are exceedingly rare.

Not talking about the sales person at your local phone store. More like someone who can identify a serviceable addressable market, pinpoint widespread pains / gains, and manifest omniscopic channel sales through automated inbound processes.

Those people do well selling in a commodified economy, while producers / generators / creators don't precisely because commodity markets are non-deterministic. It doesn't matter who does the work so long as there's another option for where to get it.

In other words: the artist doesn't matter as much as the person who makes customers crave the product at scale.

It's not exactly supply and demand, a good sales person operates N simultaneous sales channels and extracts whatever profit can be made off each. Labor rates are inversely proportional to the number of channels that can remain productive in the market. The more fragmented consumer demand becomes, the less it makes sense to pay any particular creator much of anything. There's an argument to be made that creators deserve negative compensation during high growth phases and should be providing companies like GW work for free as a means of growing their personal brand.

While I'm not familiar with GW's compensation practices, the company has an incentive to focus compensation on sales. Sales channel operations are tacit, hard to document and often built around the trust someone has in the sales person. If that person goes to another company, they can take their knowledge of how the channel works with them. So GW is likely paying sales people enough to retire within 5 - 10 years, losing them to a competitor could be disastrous.

Conversely, creators will become important again should GW's fortunes change. If consumers lose interest in mass-produced, highly detailed models, individual artist styles could become a point of differentiation. But that's a ways off, if ever.

Similar points to make about administration. And yes, I meant supply chain management. It's become very similar to sales in important ways.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 04:12:43


Post by: kurhanik


Las wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


However, this is how it works with many fields, including creative ones. The hours might be long in addition to the low pay. But you don't stay in that job. They're temporary. You use the company to learn and pad out your resume, and then promptly take that training elsewhere. It's mutual exploitation. The company usually understands that there will be a lot of churn in those roles...and are usually okay with it because there's more demand for those jobs than supply. I'm sure the demand for roles at GW are very high, which allows them to pay a very low wage.


"This is how it is" does not make it right. Creatives being underpaid despite the fact that their work is immensely profitable is especially egregious. People should be paid fairly for the work they perform. Period. Workers need to organize and stand up for themselves.


He didn't say it was right, he was giving very good advice. On your second point, what exactly is fair pay for a job that thousands of people will do to the same or comparable standard for the same or less money tomorrow?

High demand, low supply jobs will always pay poorly.


I would say a non poverty rate for start. Housing (I mean a roof over your head, not a grand estate) and food should be a right, not a privilege for a high paycheck. Nobody should have to live wondering where their next meal is going to come from or if they can make rent. Even moreso, nobody working full time especially should have to worry about those things. When a company is making hundreds of millions in profits on the back of its employees, it can easily slush some of that around into a stable pay rate structure.

Sarouan wrote:
 lagoon83 wrote:
Sarouan wrote:

I think it has more to do with people taking James' tweets as justifications for their "GW is Evil" crusade and thus upsetting those still working at GW fearing they'll get a backlash to go under the fire of those people, even though they have nothing to do with it...because they're looking to bash on GW and whoever is working for them, they don't care about nuance.

Feels natural to me that they're upset one of their friend is dropping such a bomb going viral, with - like James said - not so much nuance as he did in the long post you can read in the link above. Don't think it has much to do with the question on fair salaries.

But people looking only to bash on GW don't care about that long post. They only care about the not-so-nuanced tweets, because they're more suitable to consolidate their beliefs that "GW is Evil".

Even though James said that's not his own perception in the long post...


It's this, yep.


The sad thing is that between the link was posted in this topic and the time I posted this here, you can already see that it doesn't matter what you wrote in your blog, in the end...the same "GW is Evil" crusaders keep adressing this as GW being the source of all evil...while you specifically targetted GW managers and made the nuance...

Hope you don't have too many regrets posting those tweets...


Has anybody been saying that? I don't really remember any of that. When people say "GW is Evil" they usually mean it in the sense of the company and the structures in general, not the grunts at the bottom rungs. And GW does what any other corporation does - try to minimize how much people know of the bad stuff while also making people think its a utopia. On the corporate evil scale GW is even a small fry compared to say Activision or Ubisoft. Its actually rather unfortunately that paying your staff poverty wages is really low on the scale, but when you have companies doing hijinks that makes literally anything GW can do seem tame...

Most of what people here are saying is that GW can and should do better, and that is on management.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 05:52:38


Post by: lord marcus


definitely a "should do better" vibe.

Especially for the people who design their games.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 08:45:37


Post by: lagoon83


 kurhanik wrote:


I would say a non poverty rate for start. Housing (I mean a roof over your head, not a grand estate) and food should be a right, not a privilege for a high paycheck. Nobody should have to live wondering where their next meal is going to come from or if they can make rent. Even moreso, nobody working full time especially should have to worry about those things. When a company is making hundreds of millions in profits on the back of its employees, it can easily slush some of that around into a stable pay rate structure.


To be very clear, a salary of £19k in 2014 was a fair way above the poverty line. We were able to rent a house, pay bills and afford food. We were hardly living in the lap of luxury, our savings were constantly empty and we couldn't really afford holidays or expensive hobbies (ironically), but we weren't in poverty. There's a big difference.

That's not to say the pay wasn't bad for the amount of work we were expected to put in, but like I said in the blog post, that's no different for any number of other corporate positions. The lesson here isn't that Games Workshop sucks, it's that Games Workshop is no better than any other big corporate office, but it's easy to forget that because of the hobby and community aspects.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 09:59:37


Post by: kodos


I think the problem here is simple that GW is a "hobby company" which some people associate as "they do it as a hobby" and not that GW is a standard corporate office doing luxury products for other peoples hobby


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 10:10:57


Post by: techsoldaten


 lagoon83 wrote:
 kurhanik wrote:


I would say a non poverty rate for start. Housing (I mean a roof over your head, not a grand estate) and food should be a right, not a privilege for a high paycheck. Nobody should have to live wondering where their next meal is going to come from or if they can make rent. Even moreso, nobody working full time especially should have to worry about those things. When a company is making hundreds of millions in profits on the back of its employees, it can easily slush some of that around into a stable pay rate structure.


To be very clear, a salary of £19k in 2014 was a fair way above the poverty line. We were able to rent a house, pay bills and afford food. We were hardly living in the lap of luxury, our savings were constantly empty and we couldn't really afford holidays or expensive hobbies (ironically), but we weren't in poverty. There's a big difference.

That's not to say the pay wasn't bad for the amount of work we were expected to put in, but like I said in the blog post, that's no different for any number of other corporate positions. The lesson here isn't that Games Workshop sucks, it's that Games Workshop is no better than any other big corporate office, but it's easy to forget that because of the hobby and community aspects.


Yeah. £19k sounds really bad compared to the same amount USD, it's hard for people to put into perspective. If it was $19k, you'd be living very close to the bone in any US city.

For the record, salaried creatives (in the broad sense) often receive inadequate compensation relative to sales. Salaries are typically based on industry averages, and this includes people working for companies that do not enjoy the same success as GW. Something like 90% of new product offerings fail to find a product-market fit, this factors into compensation for everyone in industry.

The US Bureau of Labor and Statistics maintains salary data for job classifications across a wide spectrum of professions.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

Not sure exactly where 'game designer' fit into these categories, but multimedia designer and animators is a close cousin.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/2019/may/oes271014.htm

Technical writer might be a good comparison as well.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes273042.htm

Were one to account for differences in currency, annual leave, healthcare / social services, taxes, etc., your compensation would have put you in the lower half / bottom quadrant by either of these measures.

Your assessment that this is common amongst public companies is spot on. Any publicly-traded company receives audited financial statements annually. During this process, accountants look at labor codes for every employee and compare them with the figures cited. Overcompensation affects stock prices and the board will exert pressure to bring any exceptional compensation in line with market norms. Accountants will compare compensation to market cap of the company and it's competitors, a company that's not at the top of it's industry can actually be sued by shareholders in the US and UK for labor costs exceeding the median in any category. Plus the last thing any C-level executive wants is to have employee compensation come up on an earnings call, this is a figure most CEOs actively manage.

Something to consider: niche positions like 'rules writer' will often be classified in the stupidest way possible by an accountant who doesn't understand the first thing about how the company actually works. It's not necessarily that the company doesn't want to pay you, it's that there's top down pressure to conform to boundaries on how compensation should work.

An effective strategy for someone in this position could be to argue the position is miscategorized and undercompensated based on industry averages. Your direct report might not understand the issue, but a director or officer would. You might find they are very sympathetic when you're speaking their language.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 11:36:45


Post by: the_scotsman


 gorgon wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Capitalist Oppressor here.

My experience: Sales and Administration receive the lion's share of compensation, both in direct labor costs and incentives.

It's not so much about supply and demand, we live with a globalist economy. Knowing how to build a supply chain, source component parts to deliver finished product, generate awareness and achieve fulfillment are valued more highly than concept (creative) work.

Creates a perverse incentive to treat creative types as replaceable commodities. Will remain that way until the labor market adapts to SCM, which will be a generational shift.


Another thing...in creative fields, TALENT matters a lot. If you have more of it, it's probably going to show, and you're going to be more valuable. If you're just okay...you're more disposable. And frankly there are many more of the latter than the former. It's not about resumes and box-checking. Any potential employer of mine is going to want to see things I've done and will judge me on those things, potentially to my face in an interview. Creative fields aren't for people with fragile egos.

I feel like an entire generation got their heads filled with ideas about doing what you love and success will come. If you want to succeed, don't do what you love...do what you're GOOD at that you can get PAID for.


Primarily I blame the fact that university has become glorified job training. You can't start in basically any field that pays a livable wage unless you have multiple years of this advanced, expensive job training, and kids have no fething idea what they want to do when they're 18, and many many many of them basically say "uuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh I dunno the thing I enjoy doing right now?"

How many people who go get expensive degrees in video game design and have these analytical minds that love breaking down game mechanics and memorizing stats and categorizing different builds would find a stigmatized field like supply chain analytics or factory output statistical analysis or accounting to be something that fits well with the way their brain works? How many people who want to save the environment could be doing so by improving the design of a ubiquitous, wasteful product somewhere out there in the world?

the problem is we ask people who've never experienced a career to know what career they want because no job is willing to accept anything but the most specific degree requirements.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 11:57:29


Post by: Cronch


How many people who want to save the environment could be doing so by improving the design of a ubiquitous, wasteful product somewhere out there in the world?

The answer is none. Those huge ,plastic blisters containing air and a tiny product on supermarket shelves aren't designed this way because current batch of designers are idiots, they're designed this way to catch eye and trick our dumb monkey brains into buying the thing.

Capitalism is about maximizing profit, not efficiency.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 12:07:08


Post by: MaxT


Cronch wrote:
How many people who want to save the environment could be doing so by improving the design of a ubiquitous, wasteful product somewhere out there in the world?

The answer is none. Those huge ,plastic blisters containing air and a tiny product on supermarket shelves aren't designed this way because current batch of designers are idiots, they're designed this way to catch eye and trick our dumb monkey brains into buying the thing.

Capitalism is about maximizing profit, not efficiency.


FFG X-wing and Armada have been terrible for that. Huge boxes with multiple layers of cardboard and plastic for a tiny ship, with enough air inside the box to keep an astronaut alive for a week.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 12:09:40


Post by: Nurglitch


It makes people feel much better about how much they pay for that tiny ship though.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 12:37:03


Post by: Turnip Jedi


MaxT wrote:
Cronch wrote:
How many people who want to save the environment could be doing so by improving the design of a ubiquitous, wasteful product somewhere out there in the world?

The answer is none. Those huge ,plastic blisters containing air and a tiny product on supermarket shelves aren't designed this way because current batch of designers are idiots, they're designed this way to catch eye and trick our dumb monkey brains into buying the thing.

Capitalism is about maximizing profit, not efficiency.


FFG X-wing and Armada have been terrible for that. Huge boxes with multiple layers of cardboard and plastic for a tiny ship, with enough air inside the box to keep an astronaut alive for a week.


and its got far worse in 2.0, not sure if its some bad idea by ffg/amg or some kind of diktat from the Mouse regarding branding


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nurglitch wrote:
It makes people feel much better about how much they pay for that tiny ship though.


they have jumped a fair bit its true but it does have all the cards and wotnot so theres no brb or codex cost to factor in


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 17:52:18


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Eldarsif wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Does anyone know if sculptors are well paid or is that considered a labor of love as well?


Considering that most of the sculptors are now digital and their skill can translate into other sectors such as digital game development and movies I would be surprised if they don't get a bit better pay.

It takes time and money to train a good digital sculptor that is familiar with you processes. To pay them subpar and risk them leaving is a risky proposition, especially for a studio like GW that relies incredibly upon their sculptors to make new models.


The sculptors at GW are really more hybrid sculptors and engineers. They are responsible for not just sculpting the miniature but also parting it out for assembly and to some extent manufacturing - GW still employs moldmakers and engineers to complete the process, but a lot of it is now handled up-front by the sculptors themselves. I know at some point they were using zBrush in addition to a couple other software packages (most of the parting and engineering is done using another software package whos name escapes me at the moment, its something that isn't really used outside of the toymaking and product design industry), but I'm not sure if they are still using zBrush as the other applications can basically do everything that zBrush does + the CAM/moldmaking bit that zBrush isn't really suited for.

Anyway, point is that their skillset might not be entirely translatable to the game and entertainment industry depending on which application(s) they are using, but on the flipside they have an even more niche skillset.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/29 22:34:59


Post by: Eldarsif


chaos0xomega wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Does anyone know if sculptors are well paid or is that considered a labor of love as well?


Considering that most of the sculptors are now digital and their skill can translate into other sectors such as digital game development and movies I would be surprised if they don't get a bit better pay.

It takes time and money to train a good digital sculptor that is familiar with you processes. To pay them subpar and risk them leaving is a risky proposition, especially for a studio like GW that relies incredibly upon their sculptors to make new models.


The sculptors at GW are really more hybrid sculptors and engineers. They are responsible for not just sculpting the miniature but also parting it out for assembly and to some extent manufacturing - GW still employs moldmakers and engineers to complete the process, but a lot of it is now handled up-front by the sculptors themselves. I know at some point they were using zBrush in addition to a couple other software packages (most of the parting and engineering is done using another software package whos name escapes me at the moment, its something that isn't really used outside of the toymaking and product design industry), but I'm not sure if they are still using zBrush as the other applications can basically do everything that zBrush does + the CAM/moldmaking bit that zBrush isn't really suited for.

Anyway, point is that their skillset might not be entirely translatable to the game and entertainment industry depending on which application(s) they are using, but on the flipside they have an even more niche skillset.


For making the molds my guess/bet is on AutoCAD. However, regardless of which sculpting tool(digital that is) they are using those skills are often easily translatable between several fields. Even if the tools are different the methods are usually the same and it is only a question of a learning curve(like going to zBrush from almost anything else).


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 02:42:20


Post by: stratigo


 Las wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
 Las wrote:
I feel for the guy. He is a legend, but it doesn't seem like he approached his compensation in quite the right way. He shouldn't have been surprised that the likelihood of a raise occurred when the chance of him moving departments came up.

The only reason a company will pay you more is if it costs them less to do so than to look for a replacement or lose your contribution. It's not about how long you've been there, it's not about the work you're doing (at least not directly). If they know you're going to stay whether they pay you more or not, they won't pay you more. From his tweets (admittedly not a a complete picture of events/the person), it didn't seem like he was going anywhere.

Every "I need more money" needs to backed by a reality that it will be better for them if they do so. It sucks, but it's life.

EDIT: That said, the salary they paid him was far, far too low to begin with. Yikes.


It's the hypocrisy of this that rankles so much. GW constantly tells its employees that they always need to put the needs of the product first, that it's about more than a paycheck, that it's about going above and beyond, that working for GW is a calling, not just a job...and then they turn around and act in the most blatantly self-interested way possible when it comes to maximizing their own profits, even to the extent of paying people barely above a poverty wage to work for them, then repeatedly refusing their attempts to get well-deserved raises based on the quality of their work. GW talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk. If they were just upfront with their employees about being a soulless corporate behemoth that treats its workers as disposable pawns in its quest to make ever more money, it'd be distasteful, but at least it'd be honest. Telling GW employees they need to be hard-nosed about compensation because they're a disposable tool to be valued via hands-off cold, rational economic calculation, not a valued team member may be true, but it also goes against every single aspect of the corporate culture they've been immersed in.


Don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100% on the hypocrisy. The thing is, though, every worker owes it to themselves to be savvy. The company is not your friend. It never will be. It will always sublimate your needs over the needs of the organization. Without question. Never take a company's dedication to culture at its word. Judge it on merit and action.

 Gert wrote:
I disagree with this whole "you should know that a company won't treat you well" idea because it's not a universal truth. My first job was OK but did terribly when it came to respecting concerns brought up by me about the abusive behaviour of an adult colleague and they handled it so poorly that when the individual left I was essentially blamed for their departure despite being 17 years old and in my first ever job.
My current job, while a pain and very stressful, took my mental health very seriously and was very generous with both recovery time and phased return to work. Similarly, ​when I caught Covid and got hit pretty hard, they were very chilled about making sure I was 100% before coming back to work and were even offering extra breaks if I needed them.

TLDR, nobody should expect to be treated poorly by their employer nor should they have to put up with it if they are.


Of course not all companies are equal in terms of how they treat workers. However, as a worker, you will always be better off if you play to and understand the truth about the relationship you are engaged in with your employer. If you don't like what you've got, literally your only recourse is to either demand more on pain of leaving the organization, or go somewhere else that will provide what you want.

Someday, we might have stronger collective bargaining protections in the west again, but until then this what we have.


Why is it on the individual and not on, say, the elected officials supposed to represent that individual.

Why does one person have to fight alone against the massed economic power of the executives and shareholders that go into a company?

Where are the unions?

 Las wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


However, this is how it works with many fields, including creative ones. The hours might be long in addition to the low pay. But you don't stay in that job. They're temporary. You use the company to learn and pad out your resume, and then promptly take that training elsewhere. It's mutual exploitation. The company usually understands that there will be a lot of churn in those roles...and are usually okay with it because there's more demand for those jobs than supply. I'm sure the demand for roles at GW are very high, which allows them to pay a very low wage.


"This is how it is" does not make it right. Creatives being underpaid despite the fact that their work is immensely profitable is especially egregious. People should be paid fairly for the work they perform. Period. Workers need to organize and stand up for themselves.


He didn't say it was right, he was giving very good advice. On your second point, what exactly is fair pay for a job that thousands of people will do to the same or comparable standard for the same or less money tomorrow?

High demand, low supply jobs will always pay poorly.


Advice to who?

 Eldarsif wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Does anyone know if sculptors are well paid or is that considered a labor of love as well?


Considering that most of the sculptors are now digital and their skill can translate into other sectors such as digital game development and movies I would be surprised if they don't get a bit better pay.

It takes time and money to train a good digital sculptor that is familiar with you processes. To pay them subpar and risk them leaving is a risky proposition, especially for a studio like GW that relies incredibly upon their sculptors to make new models.



More skilled is relatively meaningless for pay scales, as game development tells us.

Now I don't know how much sculptors are paid (I haven't actually met any GW sculptors), but it's probably not gonna be much different then Hewitt.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 03:20:08


Post by: Grot 6


Blastaar wrote:
 Grot 6 wrote:
Jobs like that are Stepping stones.

If you think you need to stay there, keep drinking the kool aid. You go in, get your feet wet in the chosen profession, then move on when you've had your fill and move on to something better with a good letter of recommendation. (If even that.)

Make your mark, and move on. Don't cry about it, don't post p!@#$y little passive aggressive Twits, don't talk about it. Keep your mouth closed, take it like a gentleman, and continue.

You go into a job, one of the pieces of information you might want to ask, or find out- before you even apply- What is the Mean/ Medium of salary? How is this position compared to other companies positions, What can I make, what do I need to do to earn bonuses, are there any other bennies, do I get a car / parking/ gas money/ bus money, etc... Do I get other intangibles to take the place of the low salary, such as open bar, free chow, company trips, etc.


This is GW. They don't care about workers, if you haven't figured it out yet. They want you to drink the kulture kool aid, keep your mouth shut, and smile as you cry on the inside.

Madness? THIS IS GW!


Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."



No. Low end jobs are jobs where you earn your keep and learn your trade. that is why they are called- ENTERY LEVEL.

To keep this in perspective, You are saying that it's the COMPANIES fault that this guy didn't put in the work to do the homework on the job. EVERY job out there has a starting point, and in his points, he is in one of those slots. He isn't Gav Thorp, he hasn't come up with a game, and had a feature in WD, and in effect, he's a background grunt in the office, plucking away on the computer, rules testing, and revamping/ revising.

THAT to me doesn't say "premium". That tells me mid tier/ lower level. You don't get a private parking space at that level, if anything, you might get free lunch/ drinks at the company picnic, but not on the level of Project lead or head designer.

You don't just show up a nobody at a company and get a premium slot.... unless that was what you were hired for, or grow into it by taking a next tier position, or impressing the heck out of your boss.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 12:07:32


Post by: Nurglitch


Didn't he write/develop Adeptus Titanicus (2018)?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 12:11:08


Post by: beast_gts


 Nurglitch wrote:
Didn't he write/develop Adeptus Titanicus (2018)?
Yes, and Necromunda, and Silver Tower...


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 12:15:22


Post by: kodos


yeah, the typical entry level jobs were you are paid low because you are learning a lot while doing nothing of real value for the company

not that a lot of people say AT is the best game GW made in the past years and also take this game as argument that the new Kill Team must be a good game (as GW now knows how to make good games)


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 13:24:02


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Are we positing that rules writer is an entry level job at GW, or that GW considers writing the rules for their games an entry level job?

Neither sound correct.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 13:35:10


Post by: Las


stratigo wrote:
Spoiler:
 Las wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
 Las wrote:
I feel for the guy. He is a legend, but it doesn't seem like he approached his compensation in quite the right way. He shouldn't have been surprised that the likelihood of a raise occurred when the chance of him moving departments came up.

The only reason a company will pay you more is if it costs them less to do so than to look for a replacement or lose your contribution. It's not about how long you've been there, it's not about the work you're doing (at least not directly). If they know you're going to stay whether they pay you more or not, they won't pay you more. From his tweets (admittedly not a a complete picture of events/the person), it didn't seem like he was going anywhere.

Every "I need more money" needs to backed by a reality that it will be better for them if they do so. It sucks, but it's life.

EDIT: That said, the salary they paid him was far, far too low to begin with. Yikes.


It's the hypocrisy of this that rankles so much. GW constantly tells its employees that they always need to put the needs of the product first, that it's about more than a paycheck, that it's about going above and beyond, that working for GW is a calling, not just a job...and then they turn around and act in the most blatantly self-interested way possible when it comes to maximizing their own profits, even to the extent of paying people barely above a poverty wage to work for them, then repeatedly refusing their attempts to get well-deserved raises based on the quality of their work. GW talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk. If they were just upfront with their employees about being a soulless corporate behemoth that treats its workers as disposable pawns in its quest to make ever more money, it'd be distasteful, but at least it'd be honest. Telling GW employees they need to be hard-nosed about compensation because they're a disposable tool to be valued via hands-off cold, rational economic calculation, not a valued team member may be true, but it also goes against every single aspect of the corporate culture they've been immersed in.


Don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100% on the hypocrisy. The thing is, though, every worker owes it to themselves to be savvy. The company is not your friend. It never will be. It will always sublimate your needs over the needs of the organization. Without question. Never take a company's dedication to culture at its word. Judge it on merit and action.

 Gert wrote:
I disagree with this whole "you should know that a company won't treat you well" idea because it's not a universal truth. My first job was OK but did terribly when it came to respecting concerns brought up by me about the abusive behaviour of an adult colleague and they handled it so poorly that when the individual left I was essentially blamed for their departure despite being 17 years old and in my first ever job.
My current job, while a pain and very stressful, took my mental health very seriously and was very generous with both recovery time and phased return to work. Similarly, ​when I caught Covid and got hit pretty hard, they were very chilled about making sure I was 100% before coming back to work and were even offering extra breaks if I needed them.

TLDR, nobody should expect to be treated poorly by their employer nor should they have to put up with it if they are.


Of course not all companies are equal in terms of how they treat workers. However, as a worker, you will always be better off if you play to and understand the truth about the relationship you are engaged in with your employer. If you don't like what you've got, literally your only recourse is to either demand more on pain of leaving the organization, or go somewhere else that will provide what you want.

Someday, we might have stronger collective bargaining protections in the west again, but until then this what we have.


Why is it on the individual and not on, say, the elected officials supposed to represent that individual.

Why does one person have to fight alone against the massed economic power of the executives and shareholders that go into a company?

Where are the unions?


I mean, maybe it's not? But you're in the realm of government labour policy now. These are questions that would not have helped this fella in the slightest as he tried to get better pay in the short and mid term. A better understanding of how to negotiate for better pay certainly would have, however.

Spoiler:
stratigo wrote:
 Las wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."


However, this is how it works with many fields, including creative ones. The hours might be long in addition to the low pay. But you don't stay in that job. They're temporary. You use the company to learn and pad out your resume, and then promptly take that training elsewhere. It's mutual exploitation. The company usually understands that there will be a lot of churn in those roles...and are usually okay with it because there's more demand for those jobs than supply. I'm sure the demand for roles at GW are very high, which allows them to pay a very low wage.


"This is how it is" does not make it right. Creatives being underpaid despite the fact that their work is immensely profitable is especially egregious. People should be paid fairly for the work they perform. Period. Workers need to organize and stand up for themselves.


He didn't say it was right, he was giving very good advice. On your second point, what exactly is fair pay for a job that thousands of people will do to the same or comparable standard for the same or less money tomorrow?

High demand, low supply jobs will always pay poorly.


Advice to who?

 Eldarsif wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Does anyone know if sculptors are well paid or is that considered a labor of love as well?


Considering that most of the sculptors are now digital and their skill can translate into other sectors such as digital game development and movies I would be surprised if they don't get a bit better pay.

It takes time and money to train a good digital sculptor that is familiar with you processes. To pay them subpar and risk them leaving is a risky proposition, especially for a studio like GW that relies incredibly upon their sculptors to make new models.



More skilled is relatively meaningless for pay scales, as game development tells us.

Now I don't know how much sculptors are paid (I haven't actually met any GW sculptors), but it's probably not gonna be much different then Hewitt.


It's true, skill is meaningless. Return on investment relative to the cost of that labour is what matters to an organization


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 13:35:10


Post by: kodos


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are we positing that rules writer is an entry level job at GW, or that GW considers writing the rules for their games an entry level job?

Neither sound correct.


we got confirmed would what some of us guessed for a long time now

that GW does not care about the rules or the people who write them and think of game designer as a grunt job that can be easily changed


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 13:35:27


Post by: lord_blackfang


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are we positing that rules writer is an entry level job at GW, or that GW considers writing the rules for their games an entry level job?

Neither sound correct.


We're going to posit whatever it takes to make GW not look like the bad guy.

(I don't mean kodos, just to be clear)


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 15:01:59


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Eldarsif wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Does anyone know if sculptors are well paid or is that considered a labor of love as well?

Considering that most of the sculptors are now digital and their skill can translate into other sectors such as digital game development and movies I would be surprised if they don't get a bit better pay.
It takes time and money to train a good digital sculptor that is familiar with you processes. To pay them subpar and risk them leaving is a risky proposition, especially for a studio like GW that relies incredibly upon their sculptors to make new models.

The sculptors at GW are really more hybrid sculptors and engineers. They are responsible for not just sculpting the miniature but also parting it out for assembly and to some extent manufacturing - GW still employs moldmakers and engineers to complete the process, but a lot of it is now handled up-front by the sculptors themselves. I know at some point they were using zBrush in addition to a couple other software packages (most of the parting and engineering is done using another software package whos name escapes me at the moment, its something that isn't really used outside of the toymaking and product design industry), but I'm not sure if they are still using zBrush as the other applications can basically do everything that zBrush does + the CAM/moldmaking bit that zBrush isn't really suited for.
Anyway, point is that their skillset might not be entirely translatable to the game and entertainment industry depending on which application(s) they are using, but on the flipside they have an even more niche skillset.

For making the molds my guess/bet is on AutoCAD. However, regardless of which sculpting tool(digital that is) they are using those skills are often easily translatable between several fields. Even if the tools are different the methods are usually the same and it is only a question of a learning curve(like going to zBrush from almost anything else).

Nope. Again, its a very niche software package which essentially fuses the sculpting functionality of Zbrush together with the CAM functions found in other software packages. Basically you can sculpt your mini in it in much the same way as zBrush (using a proprietary haptic sculpting device), then break it up into pieces, key it for assembly, optimize it to remove undercuts and set parting lines, lay it out on the sprue, etc. etc. etc. all in one. Really impressive software, but it also costs something like 5-10k USD per license.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 Grot 6 wrote:
Jobs like that are Stepping stones.

If you think you need to stay there, keep drinking the kool aid. You go in, get your feet wet in the chosen profession, then move on when you've had your fill and move on to something better with a good letter of recommendation. (If even that.)

Make your mark, and move on. Don't cry about it, don't post p!@#$y little passive aggressive Twits, don't talk about it. Keep your mouth closed, take it like a gentleman, and continue.

You go into a job, one of the pieces of information you might want to ask, or find out- before you even apply- What is the Mean/ Medium of salary? How is this position compared to other companies positions, What can I make, what do I need to do to earn bonuses, are there any other bennies, do I get a car / parking/ gas money/ bus money, etc... Do I get other intangibles to take the place of the low salary, such as open bar, free chow, company trips, etc.


This is GW. They don't care about workers, if you haven't figured it out yet. They want you to drink the kulture kool aid, keep your mouth shut, and smile as you cry on the inside.

Madness? THIS IS GW!


Calling jobs "stepping stones" is a way of avoiding paying your employees fairly. "Getting your feet wet" so that later on you can find a job with appropriate pay means you are being exploited, much like artists being expected to work for free for "exposure."



No. Low end jobs are jobs where you earn your keep and learn your trade. that is why they are called- ENTERY LEVEL.

To keep this in perspective, You are saying that it's the COMPANIES fault that this guy didn't put in the work to do the homework on the job. EVERY job out there has a starting point, and in his points, he is in one of those slots. He isn't Gav Thorp, he hasn't come up with a game, and had a feature in WD, and in effect, he's a background grunt in the office, plucking away on the computer, rules testing, and revamping/ revising.

THAT to me doesn't say "premium". That tells me mid tier/ lower level. You don't get a private parking space at that level, if anything, you might get free lunch/ drinks at the company picnic, but not on the level of Project lead or head designer.

You don't just show up a nobody at a company and get a premium slot.... unless that was what you were hired for, or grow into it by taking a next tier position, or impressing the heck out of your boss.


You're saying that the lead designer and/or project lead for titles like Adeptus Titanicus '19, Necromunda '18, Blood Bowl '16, Silver Tower, Shadows Over Hammerhal, Betrayal at Calth, and a bunch of smaller lesser known games (Gorechosen, Blitz Bowl, etc.) was an "entry level" employee?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 16:39:57


Post by: Robert Facepalmer


[quote=chaos0xomega 799950 11186904 nullNope. Again, its a very niche software package which essentially fuses the sculpting functionality of Zbrush together with the CAM functions found in other software packages. Basically you can sculpt your mini in it in much the same way as zBrush (using a proprietary haptic sculpting device), then break it up into pieces, key it for assembly, optimize it to remove undercuts and set parting lines, lay it out on the sprue, etc. etc. etc. all in one. Really impressive software, but it also costs something like 5-10k USD per license.


Geomagic Freeform


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 16:45:43


Post by: PondaNagura


chaos0xomega wrote:
You're saying that the lead designer and/or project lead for titles like Adeptus Titanicus '19, Necromunda '18, Blood Bowl '16, Silver Tower, Shadows Over Hammerhal, Betrayal at Calth, and a bunch of smaller lesser known games (Gorechosen, Blitz Bowl, etc.) was an "entry level" employee?


Exactly! We all know that taking the reins and responsibility developing rules for a multimillion dollar internationally renown IP holding game company is the same as the mail room clerk; just a stepping stone on a career path to a better position in all... the... billion dollar internationally renown IP holding game companies! and there's so many of them, too.
Seriously, if this were GW circa 1980-something, or some run-from-the-garage-startup RPG place I could see an argument for dismal position pay, but not the contemporary juggernaut of the industry. Hasbro/WotC is the only I can think of that would have similar field and capital, and from the people I knew who used to work they had both passion AND decent salary.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 16:49:06


Post by: yukishiro1


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are we positing that rules writer is an entry level job at GW, or that GW considers writing the rules for their games an entry level job?

Neither sound correct.


People were responding to the deeply silly argument by the person who argued this guy was paid peanuts because he was a glorified intern. Which is obviously wrong, the guy was the primary designer on several specialist games as well as writing multiple codexes and battletomes. But they were making the point that salary would have been shameful for GW to be paying even to an actual entry-level guy, which is true.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 18:51:59


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Robert Facepalmer wrote:


Geomagic Freeform


YES! Thank you. I knew it was "Geo"something but couldn't remember the rest.

 PondaNagura wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
You're saying that the lead designer and/or project lead for titles like Adeptus Titanicus '19, Necromunda '18, Blood Bowl '16, Silver Tower, Shadows Over Hammerhal, Betrayal at Calth, and a bunch of smaller lesser known games (Gorechosen, Blitz Bowl, etc.) was an "entry level" employee?

Exactly! We all know that taking the reins and responsibility developing rules for a multimillion dollar internationally renown IP holding game company is the same as the mail room clerk; just a stepping stone on a career path to a better position in all... the... billion dollar internationally renown IP holding game companies! and there's so many of them, too.
Seriously, if this were GW circa 1980-something, or some run-from-the-garage-startup RPG place I could see an argument for dismal position pay, but not the contemporary juggernaut of the industry. Hasbro/WotC is the only I can think of that would have similar field and capital, and from the people I knew who used to work they had both passion AND decent salary.

Asmodee as well, at least as of a few years ago Asmodee was larger than GW in terms of revenue IIRC, though they lack the "big central original IP" of GW/WotC they do have a large collection of smaller original IPs, as well as some major licensed ones (Star Wars, Marvel) under their umbrella. Can't comment on the salary side of things too much as I don't know all the details, but I do know that the pay is/was generally what I would consider to be on the very low end of a middle class income (although keep in mind that what I consider a middle class income living in the New Jersey/New York metro region is a multiple of the average income in most of the rest of the country). IIRC some of the designers/devs at FFG were pulling in the range of $50-60k as recently as a year or two ago, which is basically what I was making as an entry-level engineer ~10 years ago. So.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/30 20:18:04


Post by: stratigo


chaos0xomega wrote:
 Robert Facepalmer wrote:


Geomagic Freeform


YES! Thank you. I knew it was "Geo"something but couldn't remember the rest.

 PondaNagura wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
You're saying that the lead designer and/or project lead for titles like Adeptus Titanicus '19, Necromunda '18, Blood Bowl '16, Silver Tower, Shadows Over Hammerhal, Betrayal at Calth, and a bunch of smaller lesser known games (Gorechosen, Blitz Bowl, etc.) was an "entry level" employee?

Exactly! We all know that taking the reins and responsibility developing rules for a multimillion dollar internationally renown IP holding game company is the same as the mail room clerk; just a stepping stone on a career path to a better position in all... the... billion dollar internationally renown IP holding game companies! and there's so many of them, too.
Seriously, if this were GW circa 1980-something, or some run-from-the-garage-startup RPG place I could see an argument for dismal position pay, but not the contemporary juggernaut of the industry. Hasbro/WotC is the only I can think of that would have similar field and capital, and from the people I knew who used to work they had both passion AND decent salary.

Asmodee as well, at least as of a few years ago Asmodee was larger than GW in terms of revenue IIRC, though they lack the "big central original IP" of GW/WotC they do have a large collection of smaller original IPs, as well as some major licensed ones (Star Wars, Marvel) under their umbrella. Can't comment on the salary side of things too much as I don't know all the details, but I do know that the pay is/was generally what I would consider to be on the very low end of a middle class income (although keep in mind that what I consider a middle class income living in the New Jersey/New York metro region is a multiple of the average income in most of the rest of the country). IIRC some of the designers/devs at FFG were pulling in the range of $50-60k as recently as a year or two ago, which is basically what I was making as an entry-level engineer ~10 years ago. So.



50 to 60k is roughly double what Hewitt made though and would be a marked improvement to someone’s living standards


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 08:32:53


Post by: Rolsheen


So let me get this straight, this guy was offered a job at GW as a game designer / rule writer. They would have laid out what his responsibilities, job requirements were, what his hours and pay would have been, etc. He took the job and then complained about how much he wasn't getting paid on twitter, is about the sum of it?? Well that's his own fault and shouldn't be blaming GW for his own stupidity


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 09:02:03


Post by: kodos


nope

TLDR, a guy on Twitter asked if GW is serious with not writing the wage on job adverts because they want people with "passion" and not because of money (which is usually a sign of "stay away from this company")

which "this guy" answered to be true and added what he got payed during his years there
as well as adding that a pay rise by switching internal was avoided by removing the offer to switch departments and every time he asked for a little more was told that there is not enough money to pay more

and than he left the company

this caused the whole discussion as the "white knights" always defended GWs prices because they pay high, European wages to their workers and and now they learned that GW payment was just above the legal minimum and because of their record profits there was no budget to raise wages


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 09:31:58


Post by: tauist


GW is a miniatures company first, a crappy games developer second. I'd expect the miniatures designers to get a fair compensation for their work, everyone else will just get peanuts, and it does show in the rules quality.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 09:47:13


Post by: Bellerophon


stratigo wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

Asmodee as well, at least as of a few years ago Asmodee was larger than GW in terms of revenue IIRC, though they lack the "big central original IP" of GW/WotC they do have a large collection of smaller original IPs, as well as some major licensed ones (Star Wars, Marvel) under their umbrella. Can't comment on the salary side of things too much as I don't know all the details, but I do know that the pay is/was generally what I would consider to be on the very low end of a middle class income (although keep in mind that what I consider a middle class income living in the New Jersey/New York metro region is a multiple of the average income in most of the rest of the country). IIRC some of the designers/devs at FFG were pulling in the range of $50-60k as recently as a year or two ago, which is basically what I was making as an entry-level engineer ~10 years ago. So.



50 to 60k is roughly double what Hewitt made though and would be a marked improvement to someone’s living standards


We should note too that US salaries are typically quite a lot higher than UK - for example from chaos0xomega's post above, I also started as an entry level engineer about 10 years ago, in the UK, in the midlands not a million miles from Nottingham, at a FTSE100 company, and I was making about £24K GBP. It's gone up substantially since, of course, as I've actually become useful and gained seniority, but for the 'entry level engineer vs game designer' comparison, it's ~20% higher than what James was paid at GW (though my entry level position was a few years earlier, so there's a little bit of inflation to account for).

For the record, I definitely think James' salary was too low. In his example specifically, he was the rules lead for several projects which have pulled in huge sales figures for GW, and by the sound of things put a substantial amount of effort into them beyond what he was being paid for. Sure, the rules aren't the only aspect, and they're not the major sales draw, but even so that's considerably more responsibility than I had as an entry level engineer. I understand why they could get away with that level of pay though - it's a job that they'll have no shortage of applicants for, including a lot of people who will be willing to accept low wages in order to do their dream job. It will make their rules department rather hit-or-miss because they probably won't get experienced designers who know what they're worth, and will I expect mostly end up with fresh young recruits, who may or may not be good at it, who then burn out of the low pay and 'culture' after a few years and move on with 'GW rules writer' on their CV. It would be an unsustainable pattern if their products relied on quality rules in order to make sales, but I think as we've seen, so long as the rules quality is no worse than "eh, it's alright", and it's packaged with some cool miniatures, then it will sell.

I think we also have to be aware that we've not got many data points as to the overall pay structure. I would assume they can't afford to be as stingy with the skilled/qualified non-creative roles (tooling/manufacture, accounting, legal, etc.) since those fields will require qualified professionals who could quite easily not be GW fans, and therefore can't be expected to take the job unless paid appropriately. I expect they're probably still average to low for a major corporation, but they can't be comically low otherwise they'd never fill the roles. Also from reading James' blog it sounds like there wasn't too much of a set structure, by the example of his successor being paid £26K due to salary matching that person's previous job. You could have a considerable range of salaries on nominally the same job, which is of course why they don't want their employees discussing pay with each other. It's probably the "pay each employee as little as we can get away with, even if we're perfectly willing and able to pay more for their position" that irritates me most. But then, that's probably no different to most corporations.





Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 13:51:05


Post by: lagoon83


chaos0xomega wrote:
You're saying that the lead designer and/or project lead for titles like Adeptus Titanicus '19, Necromunda '18, Blood Bowl '16, Silver Tower, Shadows Over Hammerhal, Betrayal at Calth, and a bunch of smaller lesser known games (Gorechosen, Blitz Bowl, etc.) was an "entry level" employee? I'm having a hard time deciding if its because you have no idea who or what you're talking about or if you're just a nut who doesn't understand the level of responsibility that producing these games entailed.

Actually, Hammerhal wasn't one of mine - that was done in the publications studio after I moved to specialist games. Thanks though!


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 14:09:41


Post by: beast_gts


How Games Workshop grew to become more profitable than Google - The Guardian

In recent weeks, news of the company’s success has prompted some former workers to raise concerns about low pay for the army of creatives who devise the games and design new miniatures. Those complaining of their treatment all appear to have moved on several years ago, and the company now regularly pays profit bonuses and offers a share save scheme to ordinary staff.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 15:00:06


Post by: NAVARRO


beast_gts wrote:
How Games Workshop grew to become more profitable than Google - The Guardian

In recent weeks, news of the company’s success has prompted some former workers to raise concerns about low pay for the army of creatives who devise the games and design new miniatures. Those complaining of their treatment all appear to have moved on several years ago, and the company now regularly pays profit bonuses and offers a share save scheme to ordinary staff.





Journalism in the UK is amazing.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 15:12:23


Post by: kodos


 lagoon83 wrote:

Actually, Hammerhal wasn't one of mine - that was done in the publications studio after I moved to specialist games. Thanks though!

might want to ask a very different question, how was working for GW compared to Mantic (not which one was better but the general attitude and environment)?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 15:34:24


Post by: chaos0xomega


 lagoon83 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
You're saying that the lead designer and/or project lead for titles like Adeptus Titanicus '19, Necromunda '18, Blood Bowl '16, Silver Tower, Shadows Over Hammerhal, Betrayal at Calth, and a bunch of smaller lesser known games (Gorechosen, Blitz Bowl, etc.) was an "entry level" employee? I'm having a hard time deciding if its because you have no idea who or what you're talking about or if you're just a nut who doesn't understand the level of responsibility that producing these games entailed.

Actually, Hammerhal wasn't one of mine - that was done in the publications studio after I moved to specialist games. Thanks though!


No problem, I got you fam.

My bad on Hammerhal, thought that was one of yours, but I guess that might explain the change from Silver Tower being "GMless" to Hammerhal being "GM'ed" (I preferred Silver Tower).


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 16:11:43


Post by: Grot 6


 Rolsheen wrote:
So let me get this straight, this guy was offered a job at GW as a game designer / rule writer. They would have laid out what his responsibilities, job requirements were, what his hours and pay would have been, etc. He took the job and then complained about how much he wasn't getting paid on twitter, is about the sum of it?? Well that's his own fault and shouldn't be blaming GW for his own stupidity


Yes, but ... GW also has a long track record of jacking around employees, and using that false positive "Passion" argument to do so.

He knew he wasn't going to get paid well in the first place, then posted a bunch of "Surprised" guff about it, even though us, in the general public who have played these games for a while, already knew. Anyone who says otherwise has not put in work on getting a job, because one way, or the other, you find out about wages.

Removed - Rule #1

He knew he wasn't going to get paid what he thought he should be paid when a multimillion/ billion dollar company has to shirk discussion about salary and lean on "Passion" as a reason for employment. It never matters what you do for a company, you could write the Magna Carta, Bible, and Poor Richards Almanac- You are going to get paid what you AGREED to to get paid.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 17:23:03


Post by: Bayonet&Ricochet


Games workshop is amazing they're laying out everything you should do and everything you should not do as a miniatures company.

Everything from attacking fans, to inflamed rhetoric, then targeting animation sites like text to speech etc.

Bayonet & Ricochet Miniatures would never treat an employee like this. We can't currently hire anyone because we're just starting out but we do plan to gainfully employ people in the future. We would only hire an employee if we could actually afford a living wage for them.

Also feel free to check us out on twitter/instagram and twitch where future subscribers will be getting free 3D printable miniatures every month on twitch which we do need your help with active viewership to make happen https://www.twitch.tv/whiskerking

In addition, we're all about community so we're taking submissions for short stories, art, anything you're willing to donate to have published for our upcoming IPs. As we want the community to be part of the universe we're building.





Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 17:49:58


Post by: yukishiro1


beast_gts wrote:
How Games Workshop grew to become more profitable than Google - The Guardian

In recent weeks, news of the company’s success has prompted some former workers to raise concerns about low pay for the army of creatives who devise the games and design new miniatures. Those complaining of their treatment all appear to have moved on several years ago, and the company now regularly pays profit bonuses and offers a share save scheme to ordinary staff.


LOL. And people were wondering whether the prior story about bonuses for employees coming out right after the tweetstorm - despite the bonuses themselves having been decided upon months ago- was a coincidence or not. Someone at GW obviously is calling in favors at the Guardian. Jesus. I knew the Guardian wasn't exactly a lefty paradise any more, but that's a level of shameless dismissal and corporate bootlicking the Daily Mail would be proud of.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 18:00:24


Post by: beast_gts


yukishiro1 wrote:
Someone at GW obviously is calling in favors at the Guardian.
Or some 'journalist' is trawling social media looking for an easy copy & paste article to chuck out.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 18:41:53


Post by: yukishiro1


It's the same author as the previous article about the bonuses that came out right after the allegations started circulating, even though the bonuses themselves were announced months prior. I'm not suggesting there's any conspiracy or anything, but someone at GW pretty clearly has an "in" with that particular author, and is using it to their advantage.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 19:08:30


Post by: kodos


GW is the strongest and healthiest company in the UK
they have overcome Brexit and the Pandemic and made profit on both while everyone else struggles

there is always an article about them during the time they release their latest numbers

the strange thing here is that there are 2 articles


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 19:45:10


Post by: Kanluwen


yukishiro1 wrote:
It's the same author as the previous article about the bonuses that came out right after the allegations started circulating, even though the bonuses themselves were announced months prior. I'm not suggesting there's any conspiracy or anything, but someone at GW pretty clearly has an "in" with that particular author, and is using it to their advantage.

What you're suggesting is literally a conspiracy.
a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose



Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 19:51:35


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Grot 6 wrote:


Removed - Rule #1


Removed - Rule #1


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 19:53:39


Post by: yukishiro1


Er, no. Someone at GW knowing that author at the Guardian and giving them favorable information isn't a conspiracy, though it's certainly unprofessional the way the author has swallowed it hook line and sinker, without doing basic verification.

For example, the reason the pay stuff came out wasn't "prompted by news of GW's success," the guy was responding to another twitter user flagging a GW job posting that didn't list salary information. That's a verifiably false claim in the article, which serves no purpose except to discredit the allegations as being based on sour grapes, and which the author would have discovered with 30 seconds of fact-checking. The quoted statement reads like a GW PR release, not actual reporting. It honestly reads like the author asked GW for a comment on the allegations while preparing her article on how awesome their financials are, and then simply reported what she got back as fact.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 19:55:04


Post by: Azreal13


 Kanluwen wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It's the same author as the previous article about the bonuses that came out right after the allegations started circulating, even though the bonuses themselves were announced months prior. I'm not suggesting there's any conspiracy or anything, but someone at GW pretty clearly has an "in" with that particular author, and is using it to their advantage.

What you're suggesting is literally a conspiracy.
a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose



Also known as "PR."


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 20:37:39


Post by: BaronIveagh


Sorry, but you know, when I pointed out that it only costs them about five dollars US to make each Space Marine squad box, everyone insisted that no no, they pay all this money to their creative teams.



Believe me now?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 21:06:42


Post by: Ateanos


First time poster! Wahey!

I'm totally on board with the notion that GW released its end of year accounts last week, generating articles about its staff bonuses and profitability, and is nefariously nurturing a relationship with the goddamn Guardian to try to offset any damage done...somewhere...as a result of a former employee complaining about their pay on Twitter.

It's almost as amusing as the initial notion a few people floated around GW paying the actually previously reported and already paid bonus to its employees as a response to the same complaint.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/07/31 21:31:32


Post by: yukishiro1


And yet here we are, with the Guardian dismissing claims of a corporation paying poverty wages and discriminating against someone on maternity leave with verifiably false reporting designed to discredit the claims by suggesting they're just sour grapes caused by GW's recent success. An approach perfectly at odds with the Guardian's normal attitude towards reports of corporations underpaying workers and discriminating against people on maternity leave.

Nobody said anything was nefarious. Feeding favorable information to media sources to get your side of the story out there is hardly unusual. It's just odd to see the Guardian of all places falling so credulously for it. Literally 30 seconds of research by the author would have disclosed that the Twitter allegations were not "prompted by GW's success" but instead by someone quoting a GW job posting that didn't provide salary information, nor was it accurate to say that the people involved had "moved on," given the one who came back from maternity leave was in fact informed that she was being made redundant. At best, it's exceedingly lazy, irresponsible journalism.



Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 00:00:06


Post by: chaos0xomega


 BaronIveagh wrote:
Sorry, but you know, when I pointed out that it only costs them about five dollars US to make each Space Marine squad box, everyone insisted that no no, they pay all this money to their creative teams.



Believe me now?


Errr.... I mean, they still do have to pay the creative teams, and it does add up. Its not just the game designer, its the:
-Artists
-Writers
-Sculptors
-Engineers
-Machinists
-Photographers
-Illustrators
-Graphic Designers

for each kit, even if you're paying them all substandard wages -lets say 25k quid per year- thats still 200k annually minimum, probably a good bit more than that because there are teams of all of these people working on this.

And then its the support staff:
-the marketers
-the managers
-the accountants
-the HR and payroll staff
-the financial and business analysts
-the sales personnel
-the machine operators
-the product assemblers
-the warehouse workers
-the facilities maintenance staff
-the logistics and supply chain analysts

Thats several hundred more people easy. And then you have the facilities costs like electricity, water, heating, cooling, property taxes, general upkeep and mainteance costs (its more expensive than you think), plus the costs to upkeep and maintain the injection molding machines, aircon units, production equipment, etc. And then theres the logistics and distribution cost of palletizing the goods, loading them onto a truck/ship/airplane and sending it out to retailers, regional hubs, distributors, etc.

So again, $5 to produce a box of space marines is a cute little number that gets you the material cost to spit out a set of sprues which get tucked into a cardboard box and shrinkwrapped, but it doesn't even begin to tell the story of how these items actually come to be in the first place or how they get into your hands.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 01:05:19


Post by: BaronIveagh


chaos0xomega wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Sorry, but you know, when I pointed out that it only costs them about five dollars US to make each Space Marine squad box, everyone insisted that no no, they pay all this money to their creative teams.



Believe me now?


Errr.... I mean, they still do have to pay the creative teams, and it does add up. Its not just the game designer, its the:
-Artists
-Writers
-Sculptors
-Engineers
-Machinists
-Photographers
-Illustrators
-Graphic Designers

for each kit, even if you're paying them all substandard wages -lets say 25k quid per year- thats still 200k annually minimum, probably a good bit more than that because there are teams of all of these people working on this.

And then its the support staff:
-the marketers
-the managers
-the accountants
-the HR and payroll staff
-the financial and business analysts
-the sales personnel
-the machine operators
-the product assemblers
-the warehouse workers
-the facilities maintenance staff
-the logistics and supply chain analysts

Thats several hundred more people easy. And then you have the facilities costs like electricity, water, heating, cooling, property taxes, general upkeep and mainteance costs (its more expensive than you think), plus the costs to upkeep and maintain the injection molding machines, aircon units, production equipment, etc. And then theres the logistics and distribution cost of palletizing the goods, loading them onto a truck/ship/airplane and sending it out to retailers, regional hubs, distributors, etc.

So again, $5 to produce a box of space marines is a cute little number that gets you the material cost to spit out a set of sprues which get tucked into a cardboard box and shrinkwrapped, but it doesn't even begin to tell the story of how these items actually come to be in the first place or how they get into your hands.



No, Chaos, it was ALL those things came to $5 per box. The actual materials cost something like 50c.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 01:59:16


Post by: yukishiro1


Yeah, plastic is practically free - or used to be anyway, recently I think it's gone up in price. But it's still really cheap.

GW's profit margins are extraordinary, like close to 50% last I checked. Almost unheard of levels of profitability.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 08:16:52


Post by: Ateanos


yukishiro1 wrote:
At best, it's exceedingly lazy, irresponsible journalism.



While I don't doubt the reporter read James' blog thoroughly after she got in touch and he pointed her to it, I also don't really know what the favourable information you're talking about is. It's a puff piece largely informed by the annual report which was placed on the investor relations website, one highlight of which is the insane profitability of the company. Article one was "They did good, gave staff HUGE BONUS" and then article two was them actually reading the report.

*shrugs*

I just think it's bad enough they pay designers £20k per year and offer no route to advance (two things which are still categorically true as of last summer, btw) without the community's conversation spinning off into easily hand waved conspiracy theories and conjecture. It's a distraction. GW's profit margin growth is insane: fact. That they have increased turnover by £150m odd and profitability has not declined is, frankly, bizarre. How did they do this? Suppressing staff salaries is part of that puzzle.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 11:24:38


Post by: Cronch


chaos0xomega wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Sorry, but you know, when I pointed out that it only costs them about five dollars US to make each Space Marine squad box, everyone insisted that no no, they pay all this money to their creative teams.



Believe me now?


Errr.... I mean, they still do have to pay the creative teams, and it does add up. Its not just the game designer, its the:
-Artists
-Writers
-Sculptors
-Engineers
-Machinists
-Photographers
-Illustrators
-Graphic Designers

for each kit, even if you're paying them all substandard wages -lets say 25k quid per year- thats still 200k annually minimum, probably a good bit more than that because there are teams of all of these people working on this.

And then its the support staff:
-the marketers
-the managers
-the accountants
-the HR and payroll staff
-the financial and business analysts
-the sales personnel
-the machine operators
-the product assemblers
-the warehouse workers
-the facilities maintenance staff
-the logistics and supply chain analysts

Thats several hundred more people easy. And then you have the facilities costs like electricity, water, heating, cooling, property taxes, general upkeep and mainteance costs (its more expensive than you think), plus the costs to upkeep and maintain the injection molding machines, aircon units, production equipment, etc. And then theres the logistics and distribution cost of palletizing the goods, loading them onto a truck/ship/airplane and sending it out to retailers, regional hubs, distributors, etc.

So again, $5 to produce a box of space marines is a cute little number that gets you the material cost to spit out a set of sprues which get tucked into a cardboard box and shrinkwrapped, but it doesn't even begin to tell the story of how these items actually come to be in the first place or how they get into your hands.

If they can't turn a profit and pay decent wages to the staff, maybe their C-suite should consider something less challenging, like eating boogers for money on youtube? A lot of chiefsomethingofficer people seem to be real bad at running a business if it doesn't involve scamming their employees on value of their work.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 14:29:49


Post by: Rihgu


chaos0xomega wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Sorry, but you know, when I pointed out that it only costs them about five dollars US to make each Space Marine squad box, everyone insisted that no no, they pay all this money to their creative teams.



Believe me now?


Errr.... I mean, they still do have to pay the creative teams, and it does add up. Its not just the game designer, its the:
-Artists
-Writers
-Sculptors
-Engineers
-Machinists
-Photographers
-Illustrators
-Graphic Designers

for each kit, even if you're paying them all substandard wages -lets say 25k quid per year- thats still 200k annually minimum, probably a good bit more than that because there are teams of all of these people working on this.

And then its the support staff:
-the marketers
-the managers
-the accountants
-the HR and payroll staff
-the financial and business analysts
-the sales personnel
-the machine operators
-the product assemblers
-the warehouse workers
-the facilities maintenance staff
-the logistics and supply chain analysts

Thats several hundred more people easy. And then you have the facilities costs like electricity, water, heating, cooling, property taxes, general upkeep and mainteance costs (its more expensive than you think), plus the costs to upkeep and maintain the injection molding machines, aircon units, production equipment, etc. And then theres the logistics and distribution cost of palletizing the goods, loading them onto a truck/ship/airplane and sending it out to retailers, regional hubs, distributors, etc.

So again, $5 to produce a box of space marines is a cute little number that gets you the material cost to spit out a set of sprues which get tucked into a cardboard box and shrinkwrapped, but it doesn't even begin to tell the story of how these items actually come to be in the first place or how they get into your hands.


Somebody with more time than me please re-write the classic "rocks are not free, citizen" piece but about this.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 16:12:23


Post by: Phobos


LMAO this thread.

Of COURSE they get paid crap. The dude even outright said why in the tweets - because the quality of the output is by and large irrelevant. As long is it mostly kinda sorta works, that's enough. Like it or not, GW can get a bunch of literal single digit age children to write the rules for Warhammer 40K 10th edition and it wouldn't impact sales one iota.

Couple that with the fact that there is an endless horde of neckbeards who would gleefully shank their own parents for a chance to work designing games for GW; and it becomes fiscally irresponsible to pay anything more than trash tier wages for that job.

And unions, oh boy... you guys crack me up. It's like listening to my kid who never worked a day in his life tell me why employers won't care about tattoos on someones face.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 16:16:33


Post by: BaronIveagh


Rihgu wrote:

Somebody with more time than me please re-write the classic "rocks are not free, citizen" piece but about this.


Sure' We'll call it 'Misrepresenting arguments and ignoring the point is not free, citizen'.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 16:59:28


Post by: Templarted


 Phobos wrote:
LMAO this thread.

Of COURSE they get paid crap. The dude even outright said why in the tweets - because the quality of the output is by and large irrelevant. As long is it mostly kinda sorta works, that's enough. Like it or not, GW can get a bunch of literal single digit age children to write the rules for Warhammer 40K 10th edition and it wouldn't impact sales one iota.

Couple that with the fact that there is an endless horde of neckbeards who would gleefully shank their own parents for a chance to work designing games for GW; and it becomes fiscally irresponsible to pay anything more than trash tier wages for that job.

And unions, oh boy... you guys crack me up. It's like listening to my kid who never worked a day in his life tell me why employers won't care about tattoos on someones face.


Ah bad situations, it’s a shame we should ever think about doing something about them right?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 17:02:44


Post by: Phobos


Templarted wrote:
 Phobos wrote:
LMAO this thread.

Of COURSE they get paid crap. The dude even outright said why in the tweets - because the quality of the output is by and large irrelevant. As long is it mostly kinda sorta works, that's enough. Like it or not, GW can get a bunch of literal single digit age children to write the rules for Warhammer 40K 10th edition and it wouldn't impact sales one iota.

Couple that with the fact that there is an endless horde of neckbeards who would gleefully shank their own parents for a chance to work designing games for GW; and it becomes fiscally irresponsible to pay anything more than trash tier wages for that job.

And unions, oh boy... you guys crack me up. It's like listening to my kid who never worked a day in his life tell me why employers won't care about tattoos on someones face.


Ah bad situations, it’s a shame we should ever think about doing something about them right?


Why do you think this is a bad situation and what do you think "should be done" about it?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 17:12:31


Post by: Templarted


 Phobos wrote:
Templarted wrote:
 Phobos wrote:
LMAO this thread.

Of COURSE they get paid crap. The dude even outright said why in the tweets - because the quality of the output is by and large irrelevant. As long is it mostly kinda sorta works, that's enough. Like it or not, GW can get a bunch of literal single digit age children to write the rules for Warhammer 40K 10th edition and it wouldn't impact sales one iota.

Couple that with the fact that there is an endless horde of neckbeards who would gleefully shank their own parents for a chance to work designing games for GW; and it becomes fiscally irresponsible to pay anything more than trash tier wages for that job.

And unions, oh boy... you guys crack me up. It's like listening to my kid who never worked a day in his life tell me why employers won't care about tattoos on someones face.


Ah bad situations, it’s a shame we should ever think about doing something about them right?


Why do you think this is a bad situation and what do you think "should be done" about it?


I think it’s a bad situation because GW has a (not uniquely) terrible internal culture and treats people as disposable with inconsistent pay rates. The pay rates for the work is bad considering GW’s overall profitability went up during the period. So maybe GW should look after the staff better and treat them fairer? If not the staff as a whole could form a group and collectively withdraw their labour until conditions improve(in my opinion it’s a bit extreme).


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 17:23:53


Post by: Nurglitch


On the bright side, mediocre rules means that competitors have an opportunity to compete even without GW's massive, vertically integrated money-printing STC.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 17:46:22


Post by: Phobos


Templarted wrote:
 Phobos wrote:
Templarted wrote:
 Phobos wrote:
LMAO this thread.

Of COURSE they get paid crap. The dude even outright said why in the tweets - because the quality of the output is by and large irrelevant. As long is it mostly kinda sorta works, that's enough. Like it or not, GW can get a bunch of literal single digit age children to write the rules for Warhammer 40K 10th edition and it wouldn't impact sales one iota.

Couple that with the fact that there is an endless horde of neckbeards who would gleefully shank their own parents for a chance to work designing games for GW; and it becomes fiscally irresponsible to pay anything more than trash tier wages for that job.

And unions, oh boy... you guys crack me up. It's like listening to my kid who never worked a day in his life tell me why employers won't care about tattoos on someones face.


Ah bad situations, it’s a shame we should ever think about doing something about them right?


Why do you think this is a bad situation and what do you think "should be done" about it?



Templarted wrote:
I think it’s a bad situation because GW has a (not uniquely) terrible internal culture and treats people as disposable with inconsistent pay rates.


OK, lets accept as a given that their culture is horrible and so is the pay. It isn't affecting their profitability, so does it matter? They aren't hurting for people to work there, so does it matter? No, it doesn't. Just because you (universal you, not your specifically) don't like how they do things, doesn't mean they are objectively bad. Plenty of people either don't mind or actually like it. It doesn't sound like anyone there is shackled by golden handcuffs, so they can just jump ship anytime.

Templarted wrote:
The pay rates for the work is bad considering GW’s overall profitability went up during the period. So maybe GW should look after the staff better and treat them fairer?


This is a knife that cuts both ways. Would the employees be OK with a pay decrease in lean years? If not, how is that fair to the company? Fairness is equality to both sides. If you are going to argue fairness, it must be fair to everyone, not just your side.

And it seems that GW is being "fair" after all - they did pay out a bonus and stocks, so they did pretty much what you wanted them to do anyways.

Templarted wrote:
If not the staff as a whole could form a group and collectively withdraw their labour until conditions improve(in my opinion it’s a bit extreme).


Absolutely, if they feel that will redress their grievances, they can and should. They fact that they haven't means either they are OK with things, or that their labour isn't as valuable as you (universal you again) think it is.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 17:59:18


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Phobos wrote:

OK, lets accept as a given that their culture is horrible and so is the pay. It isn't affecting their profitability, so does it matter? They aren't hurting for people to work there, so does it matter? No, it doesn't. Just because you (universal you, not your specifically) don't like how they do things, doesn't mean they are objectively bad. Plenty of people either don't mind or actually like it. It doesn't sound like anyone there is shackled by golden handcuffs, so they can just jump ship anytime.


But it should effect their profitability. Which is kinda the point. As customers we have a responsibility to not do business with companies who abuse their employees and have dubious buisness practices.


 Phobos wrote:

And it seems that GW is being "fair" after all - they did pay out a bonus and stocks, so they did pretty much what you wanted them to do anyways.


Which don't actually make up for the difference in pay.

 Phobos wrote:

Absolutely, if they feel that will redress their grievances, they can and should. They fact that they haven't means either they are OK with things, or that their labour isn't as valuable as you (universal you again) think it is.


Ah, the old union-buster logic raises it's ugly head. 'If you're labor isn't worth enough to you to be killed over it, then it's worth what we tell you it is'.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 18:20:19


Post by: Templarted


 Phobos wrote:

Templarted wrote:
I think it’s a bad situation because GW has a (not uniquely) terrible internal culture and treats people as disposable with inconsistent pay rates.


OK, lets accept as a given that their culture is horrible and so is the pay. It isn't affecting their profitability, so does it matter? They aren't hurting for people to work there, so does it matter? No, it doesn't. Just because you (universal you, not your specifically) don't like how they do things, doesn't mean they are objectively bad. Plenty of people either don't mind or actually like it. It doesn't sound like anyone there is shackled by golden handcuffs, so they can just jump ship anytime.

Templarted wrote:
The pay rates for the work is bad considering GW’s overall profitability went up during the period. So maybe GW should look after the staff better and treat them fairer?


This is a knife that cuts both ways. Would the employees be OK with a pay decrease in lean years? If not, how is that fair to the company? Fairness is equality to both sides. If you are going to argue fairness, it must be fair to everyone, not just your side.

And it seems that GW is being "fair" after all - they did pay out a bonus and stocks, so they did pretty much what you wanted them to do anyways.

Templarted wrote:
If not the staff as a whole could form a group and collectively withdraw their labour until conditions improve(in my opinion it’s a bit extreme).


Absolutely, if they feel that will redress their grievances, they can and should. They fact that they haven't means either they are OK with things, or that their labour isn't as valuable as you (universal you again) think it is.


Again we get to something is bad should we do something about it? You’re right it doesn’t impact their profitability so should I just feel happy for GW then? It kind of is a terrible pay rate so we should accept it because GW make money? When are we allowed to be bothered by something? The you can leave anytime you want is a bad excuse for employers who want to treat their staff like garbage.

If the company is losing money I don’t think it’s right those lower down should suffer (a lot are dangerously close to minimum wage) financially, they’d probably be at risk of losing their jobs anyway if a company is doing bad, so they should be compensated if it does well. Fair goes both ways.


A bonus after a pandemic isn’t the same as a pay rise, this scheme has always been in place but never used because GW not doing well enough to use it.









Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 18:26:06


Post by: Azreal13


I reject the notion "it isn't affecting their profitability."

We know that GW can be profitable while paying what many people feel is a low wage and fostering what appears to be an unhealthy culture around that.

We do not know how more or less profitable GW would be if their studio Devs were better paid and potentially happier (therefore potentially producing a better product that drives sales more effectively.)

Therefore it isn't possible to say it isn't affecting their profitability.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 18:39:18


Post by: Phobos


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Phobos wrote:

OK, lets accept as a given that their culture is horrible and so is the pay. It isn't affecting their profitability, so does it matter? They aren't hurting for people to work there, so does it matter? No, it doesn't. Just because you (universal you, not your specifically) don't like how they do things, doesn't mean they are objectively bad. Plenty of people either don't mind or actually like it. It doesn't sound like anyone there is shackled by golden handcuffs, so they can just jump ship anytime.


But it should effect their profitability. Which is kinda the point. As customers we have a responsibility to not do business with companies who abuse their employees and have dubious buisness practices.



Yet it doesn’t affect anything at all. And that proves my point.


 BaronIveagh wrote:


 Phobos wrote:

And it seems that GW is being "fair" after all - they did pay out a bonus and stocks, so they did pretty much what you wanted them to do anyways.


Which don't actually make up for the difference in pay.


What difference are you talking about? The imaginary difference in your head between what they’re being paid and what you think they should be paid? Back here in the real world GW had no obligation to pay them a single extra penny, yet they did.

 BaronIveagh wrote:


 Phobos wrote:

Absolutely, if they feel that will redress their grievances, they can and should. They fact that they haven't means either they are OK with things, or that their labour isn't as valuable as you (universal you again) think it is.


Ah, the old union-buster logic raises it's ugly head. 'If you're labor isn't worth enough to you to be killed over it, then it's worth what we tell you it is'.


Lol hyperbole much? Nobody’s dying over anything here. The cold hard truth like it or not is that you’re paid what you’re worth in almost all cases. Don’t like it? Then get a skill set that’s worth more.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 18:43:56


Post by: yukishiro1


That's demonstrably not true. Wage levels are determined much less by any intrinsic valuation of your labor, and much more by external factors such as the laws the employment relationship is governed by, the supply of labor relative to the need, how cozy you are with the person paying you, etc.

Almost nobody is paid what they are worth in any meaningful sense of the term worth, whether moral or on a value-added basis. At best you end up with the conclusion that you are paid at least the salary an employer is required to pay you to stop you from quitting, because otherwise you wouldn't still be employed by them. But it is circular reasoning to suggest that means you are paid the appropriate amount in some wider moral or value-derived sense.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 19:20:23


Post by: Easy E


Momma don’t let your babies grow up to be game devs.



..... or cowboys either.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 21:13:15


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Phobos wrote:

Yet it doesn’t affect anything at all. And that proves my point.


What point might that be? That as long as it's profitable, it's OK? Funny, I can think of a lot of profitable ventures that ended badly for all involved.

 Phobos wrote:

What difference are you talking about? The imaginary difference in your head between what they’re being paid and what you think they should be paid? Back here in the real world GW had no obligation to pay them a single extra penny, yet they did.


The difference between what GW pays and the industry standard. And sure, they didn't. Unless you assume that it was an attempt to get out in front of a pair of really bad PR decisions, at which point they absolutely did.

 Phobos wrote:

Lol hyperbole much? Nobody’s dying over anything here. The cold hard truth like it or not is that you’re paid what you’re worth in almost all cases. Don’t like it? Then get a skill set that’s worth more.


Wow, the lies are strong with this one. No, people aren't paid what their skills are worth. That this is fact is supported by your country being currently in the throws of a labor shortage because all the poor shlubs you underpay started refusing to work for the pittance you offer. (And entirely predictable, since similar work stoppages have happened after every plague in history.)

BTW: There are only 30 people in the United States who can do my job. What would you say that would be worth? Because my skills are both rarer and more in demand than a brain surgeon, and yet, I can't help but feel overworked and underpaid.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 22:28:25


Post by: Phobos


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Phobos wrote:

Yet it doesn’t affect anything at all. And that proves my point.


What point might that be? That as long as it's profitable, it's OK? Funny, I can think of a lot of profitable ventures that ended badly for all involved.


We are talking about GW. Not every other venture under the sun. I fully agree that this crap won't fly in most other places. GW is very unique in that the point I was making is that they don't have to pay better to get better quality, because quality isn't needed to sell their products and there is a line out the door and around the block of people salivating to work there. This is a very unusual situation. But it is the only situation we are discussing.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Phobos wrote:

What difference are you talking about? The imaginary difference in your head between what they’re being paid and what you think they should be paid? Back here in the real world GW had no obligation to pay them a single extra penny, yet they did.


The difference between what GW pays and the industry standard. And sure, they didn't. Unless you assume that it was an attempt to get out in front of a pair of really bad PR decisions, at which point they absolutely did.


Where on earth are you getting this information? How do you know what the "industry standard" for a miniature game designer is? Or a studio painter? Or a miniature sculptor? Please post links, I'd love to read them. Furthermore, we don't even know what GW pays these people, because that isn't public information. Even assuming arguendo that they are below industry standard (whatever that may be), nobody is forced to work there. If GW doesn't pay enough to be a X, then go do X somewhere else. Indeed, if as you say they are so substandard, people should be leaving in droves and GW would be forced to do something about it. The fact that that isn't happening says something.


 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Phobos wrote:

Lol hyperbole much? Nobody’s dying over anything here. The cold hard truth like it or not is that you’re paid what you’re worth in almost all cases. Don’t like it? Then get a skill set that’s worth more.


Wow, the lies are strong with this one. No, people aren't paid what their skills are worth. That this is fact is supported by your country being currently in the throws of a labor shortage because all the poor shlubs you underpay started refusing to work for the pittance you offer. (And entirely predictable, since similar work stoppages have happened after every plague in history.)

BTW: There are only 30 people in the United States who can do my job. What would you say that would be worth? Because my skills are both rarer and more in demand than a brain surgeon, and yet, I can't help but feel overworked and underpaid.


1. What lies?
2. Our labor shortage was caused by our idiot ex-President and the morons in our Congress paying people to sit home and play xbox.
3. As to what your skillset is worth? Well, look at your paycheck for your answer. If you think it is worth more than that, then ask for the amount you feel it is worth. If you are right, they will pay it.
4. News flash, EVERYONE feels overworked and underpaid. Yet you are still going to get up tomorrow and go to work, no matter how you feel. Just like I am, and just like everyone else is.



Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 22:50:42


Post by: yukishiro1


That's a circular definition of worth. If you define the worth of someone's labor as what salary they can get someone to pay them, of course you end up with the self-fulfilling prophecy that everyone is paid what they're "worth." But that's just because you've defined your terms in a way to engineer your end result, i.e. engaged in a logical fallacy.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 22:53:55


Post by: Olthannon


As to what your skillset is worth? Well, look at your paycheck for your answer. If you think it is worth more than that, then ask for the amount you feel it is worth. If you are right, they will pay it.


That's genuinely one of the funniest things I've ever read.


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/01 23:04:44


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Phobos wrote:

We are talking about GW. Not every other venture under the sun. I fully agree that this crap won't fly in most other places. GW is very unique in that the point I was making is that they don't have to pay better to get better quality, because quality isn't needed to sell their products and there is a line out the door and around the block of people salivating to work there. This is a very unusual situation. But it is the only situation we are discussing.


So,you're saying that we should just accept substandard products produced by people working slave wages because it's GW? I'm glad you're not a China fan.

 Phobos wrote:

Where on earth are you getting this information? How do you know what the "industry standard" for a miniature game designer is? Or a studio painter? Or a miniature sculptor? Please post links, I'd love to read them. Furthermore, we don't even know what GW pays these people, because that isn't public information. Even assuming arguendo that they are below industry standard (whatever that may be), nobody is forced to work there. If GW doesn't pay enough to be a X, then go do X somewhere else. Indeed, if as you say they are so substandard, people should be leaving in droves and GW would be forced to do something about it. The fact that that isn't happening says something.


We don't have 'links' where I get my info. But feel free to look around job offers from places like Wizkids and Chaosium. Or talk to the flood of people leaving GW that you claim aren't there. I suspect that big bonus had a motive.

 Phobos wrote:

1. What lies?


That people are paid what they're worth.

 Phobos wrote:

2. Our labor shortage was caused by our idiot ex-President and the morons in our Congress paying people to sit home and play xbox.


If you think that, you're the one with a reality impairment.

 Phobos wrote:

3. As to what your skillset is worth? Well, look at your paycheck for your answer. If you think it is worth more than that, then ask for the amount you feel it is worth. If you are right, they will pay it.


My boss has repeatedly said that if he were allowed to, he'd double my salary, but it's limited by law. (It really is, I checked)

 Phobos wrote:

4. News flash, EVERYONE feels overworked and underpaid. Yet you are still going to get up tomorrow and go to work, no matter how you feel. Just like I am, and just like everyone else is.


Actually I'm not since I have vacation time that I have to use or lose. Apparently it really can accumulate when you're 'essential' and there's a pandemic on. And, if 'everyone' did, then why is there a labor shortage?


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/02 09:59:37


Post by: Cronch


4. News flash, EVERYONE feels overworked and underpaid. Yet you are still going to get up tomorrow and go to work, no matter how you feel. Just like I am, and just like everyone else is.

And it's a Good Thing! Helps keep costs down when one person does the job of 5!


Former GW rules writer describes working environment and pay - discussion @ 2021/08/03 15:50:36


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Phobos wrote:

3. As to what your skillset is worth? Well, look at your paycheck for your answer. If you think it is worth more than that, then ask for the amount you feel it is worth. If you are right, they will pay it.


That is not quite how salary works. For example there was a chap who was literally the only guy in any NATO country who knew how a certain type of IED worked. MOD offered a voluntary redundancy scheme to all staff which he applied for only to be told he wasn't allowed as he was too valuable. So he wanted a bonus/increase in grade (his salary back then was at the top of his grade band). Nope, not possible within the department. A company got to him and convinced him to join them in his twilight years. So he quit. His labour was promptly sold back to the MOD for £1250 a day.

There is no fictitious perfect market where we all have perfect information and complete freedom of action. Multiple factors are at play.

In James's case he made several excellent games, but his biggest seller was just because people wanted the models, a friend who is now I think the longest serving or one of the longest serving GW manager,s has plenty of stories of people throwing away the Calth game components in the shop when opening the box. How do you price his labour? I bought his gamnes on the strength o the games, but I am a tiny minority in GWs demographic. Their biggest seller is 40k which has objectively terrible rules when compared to other wargames. How to pay those developers?