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GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 13:56:22


Post by: TheGoodGerman


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jul/27/warhammer-maker-games-workshop-hands-staff-5000-bonus-after-lockdown-sales-surge

Warhammer retailer Games Workshop is handing its shop workers, model makers, designers and support staff a £5,000 bonus after sales and profits surged during the pandemic.

The Nottingham-based company behind the popular fantasygame and Lord of the Rings figurines said its 2,600 ordinary workers would split a £10.6m special bonus on top of a £2.6m profit share.

Senior managers will share an extra £1.1m bonus pot, up from £300,000 the year before, after sales rose by just over a third to £361m and pretax profits soared almost 70% to £151m.

The company has also cancelled business rates relief and other pandemic financial support from the government.


Looks like things are going well over in GW land.



GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 14:03:26


Post by: beast_gts


A new Cursed City game, in which players try to liberate the populace from an undead ruler, had sold out quickly.
That's one way of putting it...


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 14:07:29


Post by: Turnip Jedi


And just a few days after the other thing...how lucky

Also The Guardian is a shambles largely written by and for toddlers (said as a grumpy old leftie)


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 14:08:44


Post by: Sarouan


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
And just a few days after the other thing...how lucky

Also The Guardian is a shambles largely written by and for toddlers


I was just joking and you already did parody yourself.

Sarouan wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
TheGoodGerman just started this thread - GW employee bonus. Key point:

Warhammer retailer Games Workshop is handing its shop workers, model makers, designers and support staff a £5,000 bonus after sales and profits surged during the pandemic.

The Nottingham-based company behind the popular fantasygame and Lord of the Rings figurines said its 2,600 ordinary workers would split a £10.6m special bonus on top of a £2.6m profit share.

Senior managers will share an extra £1.1m bonus pot, up from £300,000 the year before, after sales rose by just over a third to £361m and pretax profits soared almost 70% to £151m.

The company has also cancelled business rates relief and other pandemic financial support from the government.


Which is obviously a conspiration from GW to shut the terrible testimonies from James and Sophie. Open your eyes ! Hate GW !


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 14:11:21


Post by: Daedalus81


Good. The workers should get bonuses instead of more payout to shareholders.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 14:17:03


Post by: Blastaar


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Good. The workers should get bonuses instead of more payout to shareholders.


The workers should receive appropriate salaries.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 14:18:56


Post by: Daedalus81


Blastaar wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Good. The workers should get bonuses instead of more payout to shareholders.


The workers should receive appropriate salaries.


Since I don't have that info I can't comment on whether or not that is true.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 14:19:41


Post by: Malika2


Blastaar wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Good. The workers should get bonuses instead of more payout to shareholders.


The workers should receive appropriate salaries.


That sounds like Marxism to me!


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 14:20:06


Post by: TheGoodGerman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Good. The workers should get bonuses instead of more payout to shareholders.


Well, I think they‘ll need to keep their shareholders happy and do both.

Also, funny I wasn‘t even aware of the other discussion about salaries etc. But I don‘t think it’s a secret that the games industry does not pay their footsoldiers well in general (just look at computer games for example).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Also The Guardian is a shambles largely written by and for toddlers (said as a grumpy old leftie)

If you say so. But while that might or might not be true, I don‘t see how it would affect the credibility of this report on an official company statement?


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 14:38:53


Post by: Daedalus81


TheGoodGerman wrote:


Well, I think they‘ll need to keep their shareholders happy and do both.

Also, funny I wasn‘t even aware of the other discussion about salaries etc. But I don‘t think it’s a secret that the games industry does not pay their footsoldiers well in general (just look at computer games for example).


The only data point I have is that Rountree is currently paid ( including pension and shares ) 775K pounds, which is ~24 times the average UK salary compared with the US CEOs being in the 270x range.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 14:54:54


Post by: Pilum


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Also The Guardian is a shambles largely written by and for toddlers (said as a grumpy old leftie)

Student Grant's and Modern Parents, I'd say. To reference another publication of note.

But a nice touch from GW assuming not too many catches, if we're giving them a rightful kicking for salary differentials and HR and management ... being HR and management, we should grudgingly acknowledge when they do something for the PBI.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 14:58:59


Post by: jojo_monkey_boy


Pilum wrote:
But a nice touch from GW assuming not too many catches, if we're giving them a rightful kicking for salary differentials and HR and management ... being HR and management, we should grudgingly acknowledge when they do something for the PBI.


Should we though? Bonuses aren't reliable income. They're a successful company that, by the sounds of it, doesn't pay its staff particularly well. That they threw their staff a bone is better than nothing, but they should be giving back more to them in a more sustained form.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 14:59:57


Post by: PaddyMick


The Guardian is a decent paper imo, probably the only one left.

*edited for a typo. oh the irony


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 15:04:52


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Daedalus81 wrote:
TheGoodGerman wrote:


Well, I think they‘ll need to keep their shareholders happy and do both.

Also, funny I wasn‘t even aware of the other discussion about salaries etc. But I don‘t think it’s a secret that the games industry does not pay their footsoldiers well in general (just look at computer games for example).


The only data point I have is that Rountree is currently paid ( including pension and shares ) 775K pounds, which is ~24 times the average UK salary compared with the US CEOs being in the 270x range.


Looks like that's on the top 350 companies (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/16/ceos-see-pay-grow-1000percent-and-now-make-278-times-the-average-worker.html)

That's a lot but it's largely due to the bonkers run the stock market has had since the great recession.

I will admit, I'm a little surprised. I figured Rountree's salary would be higher.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 15:05:17


Post by: Cronch


guardian UK has gotten to the point where guardian US has stated (once or twice) that their beliefs are not the beliefs of the US guardian team.

Regardless of the source, bonuses are nice, but salary raises are better for the employees long term, so perhaps the money should've been used for that.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 15:06:23


Post by: Shadow Walker


Blastaar wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Good. The workers should get bonuses instead of more payout to shareholders.


The workers should receive appropriate salaries.

Shouldn't they just be happy that they work for GW?


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 15:11:13


Post by: zedmeister


Think they deserve it


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 15:13:40


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


These aren’t uncommon. I got a bonus as a till monkey back in 2010.

And they’ve dished out others over the years.

TL/DR? This isn’t to counter those Twitter posts.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 15:31:59


Post by: Huron black heart


Congrats GW, but I feel I should get a bonus considering how much I've spent with them recently


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 15:39:08


Post by: El Torro


A £5k bonus is not bad if we consider that the employees receiving this bonus earn about £20k a year, some probably less than that. Of course the good thing for those people running the company is that this does not represent an ongoing liability, the bonus is discretionary so doesn't need to be paid again.

I have read of GW paying relatively sizable bonuses before. About 10 years ago (maybe more) it paid its staff a £1k bonus. even though sales had been declining year on year for various years.

A decent wage for employees and sensible prices to the consumers would be even more welcome, this is better than nothing though.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 17:41:40


Post by: Daedalus81


GW has 2,191 employees which works when you divide the 10.6M by 5K.

The pay rises across the board amounted to 7.8%, which is pretty hefty by normal standards.

Total staff costs are 99.9M making the average salary at GW a bit above 45K pounds as an average.





GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 19:20:12


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Daedalus81 wrote:
GW has 2,191 employees which works when you divide the 10.6M by 5K.

The pay rises across the board amounted to 7.8%, which is pretty hefty by normal standards.

Total staff costs are 99.9M making the average salary at GW a bit above 45K pounds as an average.





Eh, I don't know about that. You can't assume 100% of staff costs are salary. No clue how benefits packages work in the UK or whether they are part of this, but there's likely still other overhead that would go into a "staff cost" number. I would be pretty surprised if the average salary was over twice what Hewitt was making (even though I wouldn't be surprised if he was making below the median.)

Levels.fyi for hobbyists when?


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 19:29:03


Post by: El Torro


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
GW has 2,191 employees which works when you divide the 10.6M by 5K.

The pay rises across the board amounted to 7.8%, which is pretty hefty by normal standards.

Total staff costs are 99.9M making the average salary at GW a bit above 45K pounds as an average.





Eh, I don't know about that. You can't assume 100% of staff costs are salary. No clue how benefits packages work in the UK or whether they are part of this, but there's likely still other overhead that would go into a "staff cost" number. I would be pretty surprised if the average salary was over twice what Hewitt was making (even though I wouldn't be surprised if he was making below the median.)

Levels.fyi for hobbyists when?


Yes, very true about the total staff costs probably not relating 100% to the wages paid. For example in the UK all employers pay 13.8% of an employee’s salary as National Insurance contributions. This is on top of the employee National Insurance contributions and is not included when discussing salaries.There may be other costs too which are factored in to the total staff costs of £99.9M.

Also average salaries are probably not very useful when looking at a company the size of GW. The senior managers may be paid significantly more than shop staff, developers, tool operators, etc... which would skew the average salary upwards.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 19:32:31


Post by: kodos


45k as average, but we know that at least one gets ~700k, so there must be many who get much less than 45k to make up for that


Much more interesting about this article is the talk about Russia and China, to get into those markets with translations

overall this looks very much like a "damage control" thing in 2 ways
first to counter the "close to minimum wage" talks of the last days, but also to secure investors that the "new hot thing" is just not one time but that the market will grow much bigger by going into China


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/27 19:42:01


Post by: Derek H


El Torro wrote:

Also average salaries are probably not very useful when looking at a company the size of GW. The senior managers may be paid significantly more than shop staff, developers, tool operators, etc... which would skew the average salary upwards.


That's why discussions about "average" salaries usually use the median for comparisons rather than the arithmetic mean.



GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 08:02:35


Post by: Insane Ivan


 kodos wrote:

overall this looks very much like a "damage control" thing in 2 ways
first to counter the "close to minimum wage" talks of the last days, but also to secure investors that the "new hot thing" is just not one time but that the market will grow much bigger by going into China

I can't imagine GW decided to pay out 10.6 million pounds in bonuses as a response to a Twitter conversation happening over the past few days. What business makes such major decisions based on that, and in such a short timeframe?

Generally a bonus is both to ensure employee satisfaction (which is not unimportant to a sensible management) and to show the outside world (especially shareholders) that you're confident and business is going very well.

Regarding the average salary, note that Hewitt himself said he made more as a GW shop manager than what he did as a rules writer. Considering GW has staff across the globe, and will have staff who don't work the "dream" jobs but simply running technical infrastructure, managing logistics, etc., I would not be surprised if he really was being paid quite a bit less than average.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 08:14:22


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I came in to see how the black knights would spin this as a bad thing, not disappointed!

Good on GW for paying it back.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 08:25:22


Post by: kodos


 Insane Ivan wrote:

I can't imagine GW decided to pay out 10.6 million pounds in bonuses as a response to a Twitter conversation happening over the past few days. What business makes such major decisions based on that, and in such a short timeframe?.

they did in spring this year, it just did not make it to the newspapers until the Twitter conversation happened


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 08:45:52


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I came in to see how the black knights would spin this as a bad thing, not disappointed!
It's dark knights, thankyouverymuch!


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 08:55:19


Post by: Malika2


 Shadow Walker wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Good. The workers should get bonuses instead of more payout to shareholders.


The workers should receive appropriate salaries.

Shouldn't they just be happy that they work for GW?


I demand that rents and costs for food should then be decreased by at least 50%! I mean, landlords, bakers, shopkeepers, etc. should just be happy that they can do those jobs!


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 09:14:55


Post by: AduroT


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I came in to see how the black knights would spin this as a bad thing, not disappointed!
It's dark knights, thankyouverymuch!


Always be yourself.
Unless you can be Batman.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 09:20:39


Post by: Slipspace


 Insane Ivan wrote:
 kodos wrote:

overall this looks very much like a "damage control" thing in 2 ways
first to counter the "close to minimum wage" talks of the last days, but also to secure investors that the "new hot thing" is just not one time but that the market will grow much bigger by going into China

I can't imagine GW decided to pay out 10.6 million pounds in bonuses as a response to a Twitter conversation happening over the past few days. What business makes such major decisions based on that, and in such a short timeframe?


They didn't. The bonus was detailed in their financial results from months ago. The fact this is only now being covered in the national media suggests the GW PR department are earning their money (and bonus) in light of the recent Twitter conversations.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 09:21:12


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 AduroT wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I came in to see how the black knights would spin this as a bad thing, not disappointed!
It's dark knights, thankyouverymuch!


Always be yourself.
Unless you can be Batman.


Unless you’re Ben Affleck, then just be yourself and leave that role alone.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 10:13:53


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 kodos wrote:
 Insane Ivan wrote:

I can't imagine GW decided to pay out 10.6 million pounds in bonuses as a response to a Twitter conversation happening over the past few days. What business makes such major decisions based on that, and in such a short timeframe?.

they did in spring this year, it just did not make it to the newspapers until the Twitter conversation happened


still a little befuddled about it reaching The Guardian seeing as we are all stinky wammin hating right wing dingbats not the liberal elite that paper usually services, although they do appear to have a geek culture quota as there is usually a gaming article about once a month so this could just be something thats been sat on for a while as The Event has derailed the usual boardgame cafe one


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 10:29:54


Post by: kodos


can always be coincidence

don't know how fast papers are in the UK with social media stuff, reacting to Twitter or Reddit, but here having an Online Article within a day of something that is going on on Twitter/Reddit/FB to put another opinion on it or to shine a better light on the company covered (usually the left-wing papers are faster in that)

so could just be me because I am used to that kind of thing here


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 10:30:58


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


[url=https://newsthump.com/2021/07/28/games-workshop-5000-staff-bonus-turns-out-to-be-one-pot-of-paint-and-half-a-primaris-marine/]
Newthump on it as ever.[/url]


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 10:44:03


Post by: BrianDavion


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 kodos wrote:
 Insane Ivan wrote:

I can't imagine GW decided to pay out 10.6 million pounds in bonuses as a response to a Twitter conversation happening over the past few days. What business makes such major decisions based on that, and in such a short timeframe?.

they did in spring this year, it just did not make it to the newspapers until the Twitter conversation happened


still a little befuddled about it reaching The Guardian seeing as we are all stinky wammin hating right wing dingbats not the liberal elite that paper usually services, although they do appear to have a geek culture quota as there is usually a gaming article about once a month so this could just be something thats been sat on for a while as The Event has derailed the usual boardgame cafe one


try not to assume the entire geek culture conforms to your world views, kay?


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 10:52:50


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
And just a few days after the other thing...how lucky

Also The Guardian is a shambles largely written by and for toddlers (said as a grumpy old leftie)



The bonus they're discussing was several months ago. The idea a multinational just dished out cash to all it's employees to quell the (frankly fething endless) moaning of one passive aggressive, 'needy', constantly bitching ex-employee as he vomits his many shots at a former employer from a couple of years ago all over social media, who flounced from a job many would kill for because his umpteenth demand for yet more cash was turned down, is reaching a bit...

Also, someone tell him that potential new employers of Freelance workers don't like people who basically spend their days unceasingly moaning about how they were wronged by their former employer and then cite examples that the average employee in a real job wouldn't even notice.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 11:39:33


Post by: Turnip Jedi


BrianDavion wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 kodos wrote:
 Insane Ivan wrote:

I can't imagine GW decided to pay out 10.6 million pounds in bonuses as a response to a Twitter conversation happening over the past few days. What business makes such major decisions based on that, and in such a short timeframe?.

they did in spring this year, it just did not make it to the newspapers until the Twitter conversation happened


still a little befuddled about it reaching The Guardian seeing as we are all stinky wammin hating right wing dingbats not the liberal elite that paper usually services, although they do appear to have a geek culture quota as there is usually a gaming article about once a month so this could just be something thats been sat on for a while as The Event has derailed the usual boardgame cafe one


try not to assume the entire geek culture conforms to your world views, kay?


/s whoooosh


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 13:28:20


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
... to quell the (frankly fething endless) moaning of one passive aggressive, 'needy', constantly bitching ex-employee as he vomits his many shots at a former employer from a couple of years ago all over social media, who flounced from a job many would kill for because his umpteenth demand for yet more cash was turned down, is reaching a bit...


? James has been normally very positive about GW and the people he worked with. Even in that thread he is positive about them. He left a job many would love, for the same reason many others do. The pay is poor. Clearly GW can leverage peoples desire to work there to pay low salaries. The reality is if you want to have a family in an urban location, £20,000 a year (currently $27,000 at present exchange rates) as a salary isn't enough. Good on him for asking. My kid is all grown up and my biggest cost is my toy addiction, so I can be in a similar low paid job that is interesting for what I do in it. If I was more mercenary I could take my experience and the £350K+ that has been spent training me and go back overseas for higher pay, but it wouldn't be as interesting. Point is I can afford that choice. £20k and a kid? He couldn't.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 14:26:05


Post by: Cronch


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
And just a few days after the other thing...how lucky

Also The Guardian is a shambles largely written by and for toddlers (said as a grumpy old leftie)



The bonus they're discussing was several months ago. The idea a multinational just dished out cash to all it's employees to quell the (frankly fething endless) moaning of one passive aggressive, 'needy', constantly bitching ex-employee as he vomits his many shots at a former employer from a couple of years ago all over social media, who flounced from a job many would kill for because his umpteenth demand for yet more cash was turned down, is reaching a bit...

Also, someone tell him that potential new employers of Freelance workers don't like people who basically spend their days unceasingly moaning about how they were wronged by their former employer and then cite examples that the average employee in a real job wouldn't even notice.

Dude makes one tweet and you decide it means he spends his days moaning "constantly". Someone needs a chill-pill, or ask the corporate to turn down the voltage in your control panel.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 14:30:20


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


The_Real_Chris wrote:


? James has been normally very positive about GW and the people he worked with.


He's bleated since he left, on and off, but ever since leaving GW. Or tried to claim the glories for things completed after he flounced.

Bloody poor form and a very clear message to anyone that was considering taking him on that he's a precocious and difficult, high maintenance type to deal with. He also blurts all over various social media about perceived slights against him from years back. Move on and move up instead of wallowing, it's not a good look or suggestive of a mature character. Airing your (old) dirty linen like this all the time reeks of attention seeking and gets you the wrong attention.

I've worked for corporations throughout my career and what he's been talking about, as though it's some form of horrific abuse, is frankly laughable. He made the decision to leave, some years ago, but is still bemoaning instead of promoting and moving forward.

If it was 20k, that is low imo, but that's what the job pays, you don't like it, you get promoted or you leave for more money. I get paid more than that, but I don't get to write rules and stories, I get to deal with difficult and hostile people and exacting laws and procedure. We can't get jobs we truly love for the money we can live in luxury for (mostly), or I'd be working at a public aquarium or tending a garden somewhere. What this guy does and is doing in his posting, is basically endlessly repeating 'life is unfair' and the rest of us are already aware of that. GW isn't and wasn't some terrible gulag, he wasn't on an Amazon packing facility or working the registers at Walmart or otherwise doing some backbreaking or thankless task. I'm over listening to him prattle about how he was 'done wrong'.



GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 14:35:01


Post by: Arbitrator


Imagine defending a multi-million pound company's poor employee treatment for free.

I wouldn't be surprised if people took a bullet for the Sigmarine statue in Nottingham at this point.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 14:40:45


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
GW has 2,191 employees which works when you divide the 10.6M by 5K.

The pay rises across the board amounted to 7.8%, which is pretty hefty by normal standards.

Total staff costs are 99.9M making the average salary at GW a bit above 45K pounds as an average.





Eh, I don't know about that. You can't assume 100% of staff costs are salary. No clue how benefits packages work in the UK or whether they are part of this, but there's likely still other overhead that would go into a "staff cost" number. I would be pretty surprised if the average salary was over twice what Hewitt was making (even though I wouldn't be surprised if he was making below the median.)

Levels.fyi for hobbyists when?


True, but I have no idea how that stuff works in the UK. In the US my employer pays like 50% of insurance, which is like $9000 a year for garbage insurance. I imagine the UK bills that through taxes instead.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 14:51:47


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
GW has 2,191 employees which works when you divide the 10.6M by 5K.

The pay rises across the board amounted to 7.8%, which is pretty hefty by normal standards.

Total staff costs are 99.9M making the average salary at GW a bit above 45K pounds as an average.





Eh, I don't know about that. You can't assume 100% of staff costs are salary. No clue how benefits packages work in the UK or whether they are part of this, but there's likely still other overhead that would go into a "staff cost" number. I would be pretty surprised if the average salary was over twice what Hewitt was making (even though I wouldn't be surprised if he was making below the median.)

Levels.fyi for hobbyists when?


True, but I have no idea how that stuff works in the UK. In the US my employer pays like 50% of insurance, which is like $9000 a year for garbage insurance. I imagine the UK bills that through taxes instead.


Yeah, that is true, basically any comparison with salaries in the US has to take into account the fact that like 10k a year of what you make in the us is "Oh, you wanted to not die if you get sick or have an accident? Well in that case...." but still even accounting for that if true that number is pretty silly. The mcdonalds across the street from me is currently advertising for a night shift job that pays almost twice that....


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 15:01:29


Post by: Olthannon


Until very recently I was on a salary similar and sometimes lower and let me tell you 20k sucks ass. Considering how much of your monthly salary goes into rent, bills, pension fund, taxes etc minimum, it's not much to play with.

Nursing staff in the UK are on that band too and it's basically sod all. "It's a job you enjoy" should not mean you get paid feth all.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 15:04:14


Post by: privateer4hire


 Arbitrator wrote:
Imagine defending a multi-million pound company's poor employee treatment for free.

I wouldn't be surprised if people took a bullet for the Sigmarine statue in Nottingham at this point.


Nah. People hate sigmarines. The older space marines statue though…


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 15:13:24


Post by: Laughing Man


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
GW has 2,191 employees which works when you divide the 10.6M by 5K.

The pay rises across the board amounted to 7.8%, which is pretty hefty by normal standards.

Total staff costs are 99.9M making the average salary at GW a bit above 45K pounds as an average.





Eh, I don't know about that. You can't assume 100% of staff costs are salary. No clue how benefits packages work in the UK or whether they are part of this, but there's likely still other overhead that would go into a "staff cost" number. I would be pretty surprised if the average salary was over twice what Hewitt was making (even though I wouldn't be surprised if he was making below the median.)

Levels.fyi for hobbyists when?


True, but I have no idea how that stuff works in the UK. In the US my employer pays like 50% of insurance, which is like $9000 a year for garbage insurance. I imagine the UK bills that through taxes instead.

Also note that average pay is a terrible indicator of the salary of normal employees. Executive compensation drastically skews the figure, so median pay is a much more meaningful figure.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 15:45:10


Post by: Ian Sturrock


£20K for Nottingham isn't affordable to raise a family on. See other thread -- I turned down £18K for a studio role ten years earlier because even then it wasn't enough to move to Nottingham with my family. Not "oh gosh I wouldn't have enough for luxuries", more like "oh if I took this job I would get more into debt every month just paying basic costs of living."

Defending GW for that specific thing is frankly ridiculous.

They make very lovely miniatures, though.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 15:58:31


Post by: MonkeyBallistic


I can’t imagine trying to live on such a low income. Even with a £5000 bonus, that’s significantly below the median wage for the UK. Unfortunately, every business pays the minimum it feels it can get away with. Too many people think that working for GW would be their dream job. You want to earn a proper wage, better to get into a field where there’s a recruitment shortage.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 16:05:18


Post by: BlackoCatto


A bonus built on raising prices and offering less.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 16:11:43


Post by: Just Tony


So basically a guy actively chose to work for less than a living wage, and somehow it's the corporation's fault?

Seriously this is no different than all of you who pay the current prices. Hewitt is to blame for taking pay he didn't want, and doubly so if his co-parent wasn't supplementing said income.

There's a place in the town I work in that employs machinists for $11-13 US. I actively chose to work as a machinist for Caterpillar paying slightly less than $28. Had I chose the other facility to work for, I'd have nobody to blame but myself if I couldn't support my family.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 16:36:32


Post by: MonkeyBallistic


 Just Tony wrote:
So basically a guy actively chose to work for less than a living wage, and somehow it's the corporation's fault?

Seriously this is no different than all of you who pay the current prices. Hewitt is to blame for taking pay he didn't want, and doubly so if his co-parent wasn't supplementing said income.

There's a place in the town I work in that employs machinists for $11-13 US. I actively chose to work as a machinist for Caterpillar paying slightly less than $28. Had I chose the other facility to work for, I'd have nobody to blame but myself if I couldn't support my family.


While I can understand your point of view, it’s hard to defend a company paying what they know are poor wages, just because they can.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 16:40:07


Post by: Cronch


It's the employees' fault they get paid like feth, obviously.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 17:07:33


Post by: streetsamurai


BrianDavion wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 kodos wrote:
 Insane Ivan wrote:

I can't imagine GW decided to pay out 10.6 million pounds in bonuses as a response to a Twitter conversation happening over the past few days. What business makes such major decisions based on that, and in such a short timeframe?.

they did in spring this year, it just did not make it to the newspapers until the Twitter conversation happened


still a little befuddled about it reaching The Guardian seeing as we are all stinky wammin hating right wing dingbats not the liberal elite that paper usually services, although they do appear to have a geek culture quota as there is usually a gaming article about once a month so this could just be something thats been sat on for a while as The Event has derailed the usual boardgame cafe one


try not to assume the entire geek culture conforms to your world views, kay?


I think hes sarcastically referencing an article the guardian made about warhammer where they said that players tended to be right wingers


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 17:13:57


Post by: gorgon


No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 17:15:31


Post by: Ian Sturrock


C'mon, exploitative companies REALLY don't need exploited employees to simp for them. The corporation already holds all the cards.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 17:19:03


Post by: Gimgamgoo


 Just Tony wrote:
So basically a guy actively chose to work for less than a living wage, and somehow it's the corporation's fault?

Seriously this is no different than all of you who pay the current prices. Hewitt is to blame for taking pay he didn't want, and doubly so if his co-parent wasn't supplementing said income.

There's a place in the town I work in that employs machinists for $11-13 US. I actively chose to work as a machinist for Caterpillar paying slightly less than $28. Had I chose the other facility to work for, I'd have nobody to blame but myself if I couldn't support my family.

Except there obviously isn't enough of the $28 job to go around, otherwise the other firm wouldn't get away with paying only $11-13.
Living on a wage that you can't afford a home or to bring up your child should not be acceptable in this day and age. However, the rich will remain rich at the expense of the poor who are often working harder.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 17:21:21


Post by: privateer4hire


He could have also either hopefully believed or might have been told that you start at X and with solid performance you can move up with presumably higher pay. Plenty of folks willing to do a probationary job in hopes of climbing up the ladder.

TLDR Hope is the first step on the path to disappointment


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 17:21:47


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I can’t imagine trying to live on such a low income. Even with a £5000 bonus, that’s significantly below the median wage for the UK. Unfortunately, every business pays the minimum it feels it can get away with. Too many people think that working for GW would be their dream job. You want to earn a proper wage, better to get into a field where there’s a recruitment shortage.


Medians are screwed by outliers.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 17:21:50


Post by: Daedalus81


 Ian Sturrock wrote:
£20K for Nottingham isn't affordable to raise a family on. See other thread -- I turned down £18K for a studio role ten years earlier because even then it wasn't enough to move to Nottingham with my family. Not "oh gosh I wouldn't have enough for luxuries", more like "oh if I took this job I would get more into debt every month just paying basic costs of living."

Defending GW for that specific thing is frankly ridiculous.

They make very lovely miniatures, though.


I have absolutely no idea what the going rate for position like that is. GW "pledges" that they pay at least the 'cost of living' wage, which looks to be just shy of 20K. That wage seems to be slightly higher ( depending on age ) than UK's minimum wage.

I am not qualified to say if this is the kind of job that merits a higher pay and I have no idea what cost of living considerations are like in the UK ( the average pay in Nottigham is 21K ).

In the report they show CEO pay against worker pay, which includes his 'exceptional performance bonus'.



The 25th percentile shows 61:1, which means the bottom 25% of the work force makes roughly 23K or less, half the workforce makes 28K or more, and the top 25% makes 41K or more. It seems prudent to subtract 5K from each of those figures.

I don't know what his responsibilities were so I can't judge. There's more to the story than portrayed, which could include terrible management or poor interpersonal skills.

In general the vast majority of workers need to be paid more, but there are other benefits to consider like the share save scheme, company discounts, etc.

I imagine "game designer" is quite a rare position and going it on your own is quite daunting. Fantasy Flight appears to start 'Game Designer' at 33K USD, which is 24K pounds. Conversions for stuff like this aren't really that clean, but that's probably the best insight we'd have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
So basically a guy actively chose to work for less than a living wage, and somehow it's the corporation's fault?

Seriously this is no different than all of you who pay the current prices. Hewitt is to blame for taking pay he didn't want, and doubly so if his co-parent wasn't supplementing said income.

There's a place in the town I work in that employs machinists for $11-13 US. I actively chose to work as a machinist for Caterpillar paying slightly less than $28. Had I chose the other facility to work for, I'd have nobody to blame but myself if I couldn't support my family.


I don't know how relevant it is to the discussion at hand, but I don't agree with it on principal. Lots of people are unable to change their jobs through life circumstances of which much is out of their control. It's sort of like looking down on fast food workers, janitors, and so forth - the world runs on their backs and they can't all just "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", because then we'd have no one working those jobs and there aren't enough better jobs to employ them. Someone has to do it and they shouldn't be pushed into the mud for it.



GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 17:31:39


Post by: Lord Zarkov


 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


I mean it sounds like he did? He couldn’t afford to live on what he was being paid so went to work elsewhere…


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 17:38:16


Post by: the_scotsman


Lord Zarkov wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


I mean it sounds like he did? He couldn’t afford to live on what he was being paid so went to work elsewhere…


yeah, people are just salty that he left and let everyone else know 'hey this company pays like dogshit, don't fall for their gakky corporate propaganda 'we love our employees, we are a passion job!' which is...a perfectly reasonable thing to do? It should absolutely be the norm to let everyone know exactly what salary every company is offering. If you're not someone who owns a large corporation, you should understand that considering discussing previous jobs in detail "Unprofessional" can literally only hurt you. I'm assuming most people on dakka don't own large corporations.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 18:15:32


Post by: MonkeyBallistic


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I can’t imagine trying to live on such a low income. Even with a £5000 bonus, that’s significantly below the median wage for the UK. Unfortunately, every business pays the minimum it feels it can get away with. Too many people think that working for GW would be their dream job. You want to earn a proper wage, better to get into a field where there’s a recruitment shortage.


Medians are screwed by outliers.


They’re not. They’re really not. That’s why they are used to compare wages.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 18:55:50


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


Where do they go when there are no more openings for better paying jobs? And how is it still the employee’s fault?


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 19:01:12


Post by: Nurglitch


Pretty much. If jobs are in short supply, and you need money (food, shelter, drugs) you can't be faulted for taking what you can get.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 19:18:57


Post by: Ouze


 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


That agency could present itself as petitioning for better wages from your current employer, who you already like for other reasons. Nothing wrong in trying to negotiate a higher salary - I suspect most people undervalue themselves and am not sure why people in this thread seem to think it was wrong for him to try to negotiate his wage.

But as you say, once he failed to do so and chose to stay......

 Just Tony wrote:
There's a place in the town I work in that employs machinists for $11-13 US. I actively chose to work as a machinist for Caterpillar paying slightly less than $28. Had I chose the other facility to work for, I'd have nobody to blame but myself if I couldn't support my family.


Why do you suppose anyone at all works at the other place instead of choosing to work for Caterpillar for more than double the wages? Are you just that much more clever than anyone else there?

You're not manufacturing a bootstrappy parable by taking a non apples-to-apples situation and pretending otherwise, right?



GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 19:28:16


Post by: Tastyfish


US jobs generally pay better than UK ones, but get a little more comparable once you add in the standard 25 days holiday you'd get in the UK.
18-20K is really low though, especially for anyone with any experience - that's a room in a house share wage in Nottingham, not something to build a family around.

With the various UK taxes and national insurance, it gives you around £1400 take home pay a month, of which £6-800 appears to be rent going off RightMove in Nottingham for a house share/two bedroom flat.
That's then £125 a week for food/bills/fun...assuming nothing goes to your pension


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 19:32:51


Post by: NinthMusketeer


While the bs corporations get away with is well established, let's not forget that individuals can be just as misleading, dishonest, and self-serving as they are. We shouldn't inherently trust an individual is giving an accurate account any more than we should do so with a corporation, media outlet, or politician--not only are people fully capable of willfully misrepresenting the truth they are even more capable of misunderstanding it, and the fallibility of human memory heaps more problems on top of that.

It's down to the evidence. What evidence is there that the entity is communicating the truth? If the account was misleading (by accident or otherwise) how would we know?

For the record I am not speaking for or against anyone involved in this.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 19:51:17


Post by: gorgon


Lord Zarkov wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


I mean it sounds like he did? He couldn’t afford to live on what he was being paid so went to work elsewhere…


Yeah, I'm not criticizing James...he did exactly what he should have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


Where do they go when there are no more openings for better paying jobs? And how is it still the employee’s fault?


I did say 'explore other opportunities' though, right? Maybe it happens quickly and maybe it doesn't. But if you don't like your situation, develop a plan for leaving. And if you have a viable plan and the ability in a given field...it'll probably work out. Maybe in ways you don't foresee.






GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 20:13:16


Post by: Ouze


Not gonna lie, I was surprised to find out how poorly GWS rules writers are paid. That's roughly equivalent to a full time job at McDonalds, despite the game design/writing one requiring a substantially harder to source and train skillset.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 20:23:32


Post by: Daedalus81


 Tastyfish wrote:
US jobs generally pay better than UK ones, but get a little more comparable once you add in the standard 25 days holiday you'd get in the UK.
18-20K is really low though, especially for anyone with any experience - that's a room in a house share wage in Nottingham, not something to build a family around.

With the various UK taxes and national insurance, it gives you around £1400 take home pay a month, of which £6-800 appears to be rent going off RightMove in Nottingham for a house share/two bedroom flat.
That's then £125 a week for food/bills/fun...assuming nothing goes to your pension


Does the 25 days holiday include national holidays? Most jobs in the US might give you Christmas, 4th of July, New Years, and Thanksgiving ( as long as you don't have to work those days ), but those are separate from actual vacation / holiday ( of which most people get none ).

What about sick days?


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 20:29:13


Post by: Just Tony


Cronch wrote:It's the employees' fault they get paid like feth, obviously.


Get your nose out of Marx's collected works and follow along for a second. Say for argument's sake NOBODY takes the £20,000 salary job. GW now has to options: raise pay or potentially lose their business. Hewitt taking the job meant he was willing to risk destitution for the job. All on him.

Ian Sturrock wrote:C'mon, exploitative companies REALLY don't need exploited employees to simp for them. The corporation already holds all the cards.


"It's the corporations. They sit in their corporate offices in their corporate headquarters being all... corporation-y. You see?"

Ouze wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


That agency could present itself as petitioning for better wages from your current employer, who you already like for other reasons. Nothing wrong in trying to negotiate a higher salary - I suspect most people undervalue themselves and am not sure why people in this thread seem to think it was wrong for him to try to negotiate his wage.

But as you say, once he failed to do so and chose to stay......

 Just Tony wrote:
There's a place in the town I work in that employs machinists for $11-13 US. I actively chose to work as a machinist for Caterpillar paying slightly less than $28. Had I chose the other facility to work for, I'd have nobody to blame but myself if I couldn't support my family.


Why do you suppose anyone at all works at the other place instead of choosing to work for Caterpillar for more than double the wages? Are you just that much more clever than anyone else there?

You're not manufacturing a bootstrappy parable by taking a non apples-to-apples situation and pretending otherwise, right?



Has nothing to do with "BoOtStRaPs", before I got hired on full time there I ran a break press for $11 an hour. I chose not to settle.

I also can't speak for everyone's ambitions. I knew a soldier who bypassed well-paying factory work to be a sandwich artist at Subway. Should that work's pay be raised to be equal to those factory jobs because this individual and several like him have no drive to improve or progress?


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 20:32:28


Post by: Ouze


I definitely believe without any doubt there are 2 identical factories near each other doing the exact same machine work, and the ones doing it for $11 an hour aren't doing it for $28 an hour solely because they settled and\or have no drive.

These are both union shops with the same union, right?


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 20:35:51


Post by: Daedalus81


Not everyone can improve or progress. It simply is not possible. What most people want is for those people stuck on the lower strata to be paid a true living wage for the area they live in.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 21:15:42


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 Ouze wrote:
Not gonna lie, I was surprised to find out how poorly GWS rules writers are paid. That's roughly equivalent to a full time job at McDonalds, despite the game design/writing one requiring a substantially harder to source and train skillset.
Let's be honest though--a job a McDonalds is going to be WAY more gakky.

What it comes down to is supply of applicants vs demand for applicants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not everyone can improve or progress. It simply is not possible. What most people want is for those people stuck on the lower strata to be paid a true living wage for the area they live in.
Yeah, it's real easy to say 'don't settle' on a conceptual level. On the ground the person 'settling' has no guarantee that they will be able to find another position, that said other position will offer better pay, that the other position will be in the same area, and they may be stuck with low to no income in the meantime.

So some bloke who decides not to 'settle' can easily be risking debt or homelessness for a job that may not even pay better and may not even exist. The concept of worker fault in this matter only works when examining the workers as an aggregate statistic. The way to counteract that is to have the workers organize as a body which can match the collective bargaining power of the businesses they work for--the dreaded union.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 21:36:24


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Tastyfish wrote:
US jobs generally pay better than UK ones, but get a little more comparable once you add in the standard 25 days holiday you'd get in the UK.
18-20K is really low though, especially for anyone with any experience - that's a room in a house share wage in Nottingham, not something to build a family around.

With the various UK taxes and national insurance, it gives you around £1400 take home pay a month, of which £6-800 appears to be rent going off RightMove in Nottingham for a house share/two bedroom flat.
That's then £125 a week for food/bills/fun...assuming nothing goes to your pension


Does the 25 days holiday include national holidays? Most jobs in the US might give you Christmas, 4th of July, New Years, and Thanksgiving ( as long as you don't have to work those days ), but those are separate from actual vacation / holiday ( of which most people get none ).

What about sick days?


In the UK generally public holidays are on top of the 25 but its down to the employer although most will give at least the big days ie chrimbo, new years and sometimes Easter on top of the 25

As for sick leave, anything over a week you generally have to get a doctors note confirming your aren't well enough to work


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 22:09:30


Post by: puree


What most people want is for those people stuck on the lower strata to be paid a true living wage for the area they live in.


Outside some major authoritarian style government that just won't happen in the long run. Trying to control both the markets and individual desires is largely not conducive to a fairly free society. Prior to its collapse the Soviet union had the smallest income inequality by a significant margin, of all the major economies of the time; fat lot of good it did.

A living wage definition is almost invariably tied, directly or indirectly, to the average wage. A living wage is therefore almost guaranteed to have a good number below it.

Jobs with noticeably higher demand than supply and hence low pay are numerous, if you increase their pay by a noticeable amount then you create inflationary pressure and skew the average pay upwards, which in turn pushes up what the 'living wage' is.

Higher skilled/more in demand workers also look to a fair extent to having a 'relatively' higher wage. So when the low paid jobs become higher paid en-masse and/or by a noticeable amount you create a pressure to also push up higher paid jobs wages as they seek to maintain 'their' wage in line with the rest of society.

The average pay increases, and with it what constitutes the 'living wage'. To some extent after a lag period you are just back where you started, but after a period of inflation.

Contrary to a lot of people's opinion, it is not companies forcing you to take a low wage. The people forcing you to take a low wage are all the other people who are also competing for the same job, and will take it for less pay than you would like rather than them have no job. It often strikes me as bizarre that people think it is 'only fair' for someone to be paid a certain amount. But in what world is it fair that I cannot therefore come along and offer to take that job at a lower rate in order to try and get that one position?

If people think companies are paying to little, then instead of complaining that others should do something, those complaining should get up and do what they say others should be doing - start a company and pay a high wage. If it so 'right' and/or 'obvious' then why are they not just doing it?

Does the 25 days holiday include national holidays?


Uk law is 28 days holiday minimum (for most full time workers), but that can include the 8 days bank holidays (if you would get them off). 25 days + bank holidays is qute common, although 30 + bank holidays is not exactly uncommon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an addendum to the above. The most commonly used UK version of the living wage (that doesn't come from the government) in the UK puts the (outside London) wage at just over £18,000 a year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was surprised to find out how poorly GWS rules writers are paid. That's roughly equivalent to a full time job at McDonalds, despite the game design/writing one requiring a substantially harder to source and train skillset.


The problem is that it doesn't just come down to how much skill is required or how many people with that skill there are. It also depends on how much demand there is for said services. There are a damn sight more burger jobs available than there are for game writers.

It may be a very skilled job, with only a dozen other people who could do it. But if there is only 1 job for that skillset then those dozen need to compete against each other, and other things being equal the one who will do it cheapest gets the job.

Funnily that's often how we engage tradesmen - we get multiple quotes for what service we want, and barring some major discrepancy in quality/trust etc we take the lowest price. Odd that. We wish to pay lowest for services, look for bargains and sales and compare shop prices to get the cheapest. Yet when it comes to what we want to be paid we think that shouldn't apply?


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 22:50:23


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Spoken like someone who has never been in the position you're criticizing.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:00:38


Post by: puree


Spoken like someone who has never been in the position you're criticizing.


Really? how would you know what position I have or have not had.

Spoken like someone who has no argument, so resorts to fallacies.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:03:43


Post by: Galas


puree wrote:


If people think companies are paying to little, then instead of complaining that others should do something, those complaining should get up and do what they say others should be doing - start a company and pay a high wage. If it so 'right' and/or 'obvious' then why are they not just doing it?


Or you know... start a union, organize themselves, and push the scale towards their benefits as a group instead as individuals, like Denmark?

I mean. Thats exactly why unions (That aren't perfect and as everything can be easely corrupt) were great targets for some of the biggest pro-big corporation goverments of our modern age.

This idea that we are in a system were individuals have any kind of power to change their own outcome at the expense of everybody else fighting agaisnt this mega entities with , in comparison to themselves basically infinite money, is just fantasy. Not because theres not people out there that starting from a "lesser" position reached a better position. Those examples exist at plenty. But the truth is, theres no amount of progression a single individual can make outside the real, real outliers that will justify the hard work he has had to put into the system to be given back basically scraps. Any single worker is extremely underpaid in relation to the value of their work. Thats the objetive truth. Thats why corporations make those profits, and when they don't is not because how much they pay their workers but by mis managements and normally internal ineptitude and corruption.


I always find funny this kind of arguments were corporations and multinationals have 0 power over peoples lives. Is the same kind of people that thinks themselves over marketing. "If people fails for that, is their fault!"

Yeah. Thats why they spend billions of dollars in research and marketing. Because it absolutely does not work, and it is not basically psychological manipulation both at an individual and group level.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:07:36


Post by: Tyel


£20k is a low salary - and there's not much point going into bat for it when GW were supposedly paying someone in the same or similar position £26k (still not an overly impressive salary - but then I'm unclear how senior we are talking). Stick some inflation adjustments on this £26k back in 2017 or whenever to say £29k today and you wouldn't be a million miles off the average salary in the UK outside London.

Realistically though, this is just employee-manager relations the world over. His manager clearly didn't think he was worth going into bat for. That might be a personality clash, it might be some antipathy, it might be you can have £X for your team over all, so if they'd paid him more they'd have needed to get rid of someone else. Odds are we'll never find out - but it happens all over the world. The only solution is to look around - and if you can find a better paying job, take it.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:10:48


Post by: puree


Or you know... start a union, organize themselves, and push the scale towards their benefits as a group instead as individuals, like Denmark?


That is possible, though unions already exist, at least here in the UK. But even unions are somewhat limited in fighting against some major overall discrepancy in demand and supply, at least outside of a specific company.

Any single worker is extremely underpaid in relation to the value of their work. Thats the objetive truth


hardly objective. The very definition of value is usually based on demand and supply and what salary you can negotiate in a free market. If someone else is prepared to do what you can but for less money, and there are no jobs left after that for you then you are over valuing your services. If that is not happening due to a lack of free market, then value is anything but 'objectively true'.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:14:09


Post by: NinthMusketeer


puree wrote:
Spoken like someone who has never been in the position you're criticizing.


Really? how would you know what position I have or have not had.

Spoken like someone who has no argument, so resorts to fallacies.
You're right--I'm not making an argument against your position. I don't disagree with the point you are making. Nor do I assume what your situation is, that is you reading into my comment. I am pointing out that the language you are using sounds like judgement-from-afar without any real world experience as to what it is actually like for people in such a position. That's it.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:14:41


Post by: puree


I always find funny this kind of arguments were corporations and multinationals have 0 power over peoples lives.


I'm not saying they have no power over your lives though.

The worth of your service, and therefore your wage, is based on simple demand and supply - therefore it is other people who are your enemy and not the corporation.

Most people would not get 3 quotes for new windows and take the highest if all else is equal, neither do they deliberately go to the most expensive shop to get the exact same thing they can get cheaper. Our services are exactly the same - if you are offering the same thing as a lot of others when there are not that many jobs around for that skillset then the corporation is not the problem.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:17:50


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Tyel wrote:
£20k is a low salary - and there's not much point going into bat for it when GW were supposedly paying someone in the same or similar position £26k (still not an overly impressive salary - but then I'm unclear how senior we are talking). Stick some inflation adjustments on this £26k back in 2017 or whenever to say £29k today and you wouldn't be a million miles off the average salary in the UK outside London.

Realistically though, this is just employee-manager relations the world over. His manager clearly didn't think he was worth going into bat for. That might be a personality clash, it might be some antipathy, it might be you can have £X for your team over all, so if they'd paid him more they'd have needed to get rid of someone else. Odds are we'll never find out - but it happens all over the world. The only solution is to look around - and if you can find a better paying job, take it.
Or it could have been the quality of the work. Silver Tower, which he "poured his heart and soul into" isn't a well-written ruleset.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:17:56


Post by: Galas


I just disagree with this idea where "free" means the jungle's law were everything goes.

And I'm in no way economically leftists but this is too much libertariarism for my tastes.

At the end of the day, living is a strugle, and as individuals people lacks any kind of power. Just as corporations, from middle to big, look for their interests, people should do the same. But believen any given individual has any kind of power... they can navigate a system, individually, but never change it, just play by the rules others have put. For many , I mean, most people, thats enough. You can live a happy life that way. But don't delude yourself believeng you are something special, or "better" than people that has not achieved the same as you. Thats what I personally hate. If you are living the dream because your hard work, more power to you! But stop looking over your shoulders to other people that for whatever reason didnt. Judgamentals donkey-caves are not really needed anywhere.

The "free market" is an illusion. Because by the pure nature of power those with it will always try to change the rules to avoid some other for taking their places.

For something to be truly "free", you need two positions that are born from equality. An individual is no equal to a corporation. A poor individual is no equal to a rich individual. If you offer deadly colisseums I assure you, you'll have many people offering themselves to "work" there. Specially the more desesperate of people with nearly nothing to lose.

Anyway what a tangent.

TLR: Bonus good but GW should pay their workers fairly with the killing they are doing but they are just part of a bigger system designed to give everything to the ones in the top and scraps to the rest so like great Jack Sparrow said "Take what you can, give nothing back"


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Tyel wrote:
£20k is a low salary - and there's not much point going into bat for it when GW were supposedly paying someone in the same or similar position £26k (still not an overly impressive salary - but then I'm unclear how senior we are talking). Stick some inflation adjustments on this £26k back in 2017 or whenever to say £29k today and you wouldn't be a million miles off the average salary in the UK outside London.

Realistically though, this is just employee-manager relations the world over. His manager clearly didn't think he was worth going into bat for. That might be a personality clash, it might be some antipathy, it might be you can have £X for your team over all, so if they'd paid him more they'd have needed to get rid of someone else. Odds are we'll never find out - but it happens all over the world. The only solution is to look around - and if you can find a better paying job, take it.
Or it could have been the quality of the work. Silver Tower, which he "poured his heart and soul into" isn't a well-written ruleset.


I don't say that GW hasn't employed some truly awfull rules designers in the past. But they have also employed many that wrote gak for GW and great stuff outside it.

The rules of GW, I'm pretty sure, are much more a bioproduct of the nature of the Corporation side of GW than more about the proper talent of the ones actually writting the stuff. Is much more easy to writte something good when you are working when you want, relaxed, with a system you are motivated to do, without the pressure of time, or money, or marketing, or dates, where the rules are written as you feel they need to be and not in X way because the higher ups want to sell this new plastic rule with stupid circles and triangles.

And many people forgets that and , I believe, are way too harsh with GW rules writters.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:19:51


Post by: NinthMusketeer


puree wrote:
I always find funny this kind of arguments were corporations and multinationals have 0 power over peoples lives.


I'm not saying they have no power over your lives though.

The worth of your service, and therefore your wage, is based on simple demand and supply - therefore it is other people who are your enemy and not the corporation.

Most people would not get 3 quotes for new windows and take the highest if all else is equal, neither do they deliberately go to the most expensive shop to get the exact same thing they can get cheaper. Our services are exactly the same - if you are offering the same thing as a lot of others when there are not that many jobs around for that skillset then the corporation is not the problem.
What if the windows were broken and leaking water into the house, the quotes get retracted if another customer takes them, and the ability to get new quotes in a reasonable timeframe is not guaranteed?

Also FYI; corporations are composed of people.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:20:50


Post by: puree


You're right--I'm not making an argument against your position. I don't disagree with the point you are making. Nor do I assume what your situation is, that is you reading into my comment. I am pointing out that the language you are using sounds like judgement-from-afar without any real world experience as to what it is actually like for people in such a position. That's it.


Really, what language dictates that? I've flipped burgers in Macdonalds, worked 80 hours a week in a fish factory, I've had banks threatening bailiff over debts, I've watched what little money I had disappear as I tried to raise a child and worry about how to pay for the next car service etc.

I've also spent all my waking hours teaching myself new skills, and taking it on myself to improve my own life rather than whine that others are not doing it for me.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:21:53


Post by: NinthMusketeer


puree wrote:
You're right--I'm not making an argument against your position. I don't disagree with the point you are making. Nor do I assume what your situation is, that is you reading into my comment. I am pointing out that the language you are using sounds like judgement-from-afar without any real world experience as to what it is actually like for people in such a position. That's it.


Really, what language dictates that? I've flipped burgers in Macdonalds, worked 80 hours a week in a fish factory, I've had banks threatening bailiff over debts, I've watched what little money I had disappear as I tried to raise a child and worry about how to pay for the next car service etc.

I've also spent all my waking hours teaching myself new skills, and taking it on myself to improve my own life rather than whine that others are not doing it for me.
Like I said, I make no assumptions or comments as to what your life is or has been.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:24:59


Post by: totalfailure


I must have missed the briefing where it was said that the world owes you a comfortable living just because you’re following your dream to be a ‘game designer’. It’s a job with few positions, and a lot of people willing to do it. Thus, it does not pay well, because they can find the next moron ‘following their dream’ easily enough when you get sick of the low pay. Until that changes, the pay will be low.

It’s gotten that way with college degrees, to the point many of them are meaningless. Does the world owe you a comfortable life because you went $200K in debt studying 17th century French literature? Or were you a fool for ‘following your dream’ and studying something that had almost zero career path?

And now your student loan debt is my problem, because you studied something useless, and bought into the mantra chanted by the mind numbed robots - ‘Everyone must go to college! Everyone needs a degree!’ A high school degree is virtually worthless in the USA now. When everyone has a college degree, they will be worthless as well. AS and BS degrees are all but toilet paper now; soon you’ll need a master’s for an entry level job, thanks to the industrial-education complex.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:28:23


Post by: Galas


 totalfailure wrote:
I must have missed the briefing where it was said that the world owes you a comfortable living just because you’re following your dream to be a ‘game designer’. It’s a job with few positions, and a lot of people willing to do it. Thus, it does not pay well, because they can find the next moron ‘following their dream’ easily enough when you get sick of the low pay. Until that changes, the pay will be low.

It’s gotten that way with college degrees, to the point many of them are meaningless. Does the world owe you a comfortable life because you went $200K in debt studying 17th century French literature? Or were you a fool for ‘following your dream’ and studying something that had almost zero career path?

And now your student loan debt is my problem, because you studied something useless, and bought into the mantra chanted by the mind numbed robots - ‘Everyone must go to college! Everyone needs a degree!’ A high school degree is virtually worthless in the USA now. When everyone has a college degree, they will be worthless as well. AS and BS degrees are all but toilet paper now; soon you’ll need a master’s for an entry level job, thanks to the industrial-education complex.


So a giant system was put in place where some groups make billions of dollars in benefits by devaluing the work force of a whole country and systematically empoverising the younger generations... but you put the finger and the blame in those 17-18 years olds that are feed since they are entering middle school "you must go to university to even have a chance of having a decent life" for making bad choices?

You remember to me of my godfather. Always talking crap about those people going to the university! We have too many people going to the university! (Thats why most of them find jobs in France or Germany without a problem and are in demand there). Unlike him. That, in his honor, has been working from 14 years olds... in the family business (Because he didn't wanted to study) that he inherited 40 years ago with a net value of 450k€.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:30:36


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 totalfailure wrote:
And now your student loan debt is my problem, because you studied something useless, and bought into the mantra chanted by the mind numbed robots - ‘Everyone must go to college! Everyone needs a degree!’ A high school degree is virtually worthless in the USA now. When everyone has a college degree, they will be worthless as well. AS and BS degrees are all but toilet paper now; soon you’ll need a master’s for an entry level job, thanks to the industrial-education complex.
Citation needed.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/28 23:46:46


Post by: puree


I just disagree with this idea where "free" means the jungle's law were everything goes.

The "free market" is an illusion.


I agree, with both of those.

However, I cannot agree with all the company bashing. They simply do what we do as individuals - get the most for the best price.

Whilst I also agree that there is not really a truly free market, the forces that drive our wages are basically described by that economics - supply and demand. Just because we know it isn't a proper free market doesn't mean we can just ignore the fundamental drivers of how the worth of our services are dictated. If people think that there is something wrong based on what they see then they should actually make an effort to understand why, and then solve that. Not just thoughtlessly jump on the anti-corporation bandwagon. Forcing companies to pay more than the 'market worth' for services provided (be it labor or whatever) isn't going to solve anything long term, as that isn't the underlying issue. If anything it will probably backfire in some way, as 'solving' the wrong thing is seldom a good idea.

I've had a similar argument elsewhere:

A: of course I should be paid more I have a degree?
Me: A degree in itself means nothing. How many companies want a philosophy post grad vs say computer science?




GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 00:02:20


Post by: Daedalus81


 totalfailure wrote:
It’s gotten that way with college degrees, to the point many of them are meaningless. Does the world owe you a comfortable life because you went $200K in debt studying 17th century French literature? Or were you a fool for ‘following your dream’ and studying something that had almost zero career path?


College costs way more than it used to. Historical degrees are incredibly valuable and useful even if there isn't a large corporation specifically looking for historians.

‘Everyone must go to college! Everyone needs a degree!’ A high school degree is virtually worthless in the USA now. When everyone has a college degree, they will be worthless as well. AS and BS degrees are all but toilet paper now; soon you’ll need a master’s for an entry level job, thanks to the industrial-education complex.


A high school degree is worthless, because the skill-less jobs you can do without any degree for high pay are gone. And in the not too distant future most jobs will be gone, so, buckle up. That is if climate change doesn't get us first.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 00:19:04


Post by: Blastaar


 totalfailure wrote:
I must have missed the briefing where it was said that the world owes you a comfortable living just because you’re following your dream to be a ‘game designer’. It’s a job with few positions, and a lot of people willing to do it. Thus, it does not pay well, because they can find the next moron ‘following their dream’ easily enough when you get sick of the low pay. Until that changes, the pay will be low.

It’s gotten that way with college degrees, to the point many of them are meaningless. Does the world owe you a comfortable life because you went $200K in debt studying 17th century French literature? Or were you a fool for ‘following your dream’ and studying something that had almost zero career path?

And now your student loan debt is my problem, because you studied something useless, and bought into the mantra chanted by the mind numbed robots - ‘Everyone must go to college! Everyone needs a degree!’ A high school degree is virtually worthless in the USA now. When everyone has a college degree, they will be worthless as well. AS and BS degrees are all but toilet paper now; soon you’ll need a master’s for an entry level job, thanks to the industrial-education complex.


Wow, how selfish and ignorant of you.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 01:04:54


Post by: Just Tony


 Ouze wrote:
I definitely believe without any doubt there are 2 identical factories near each other doing the exact same machine work, and the ones doing it for $11 an hour aren't doing it for $28 an hour solely because they settled and\or have no drive.

These are both union shops with the same union, right?


Or instead of calling me a liar Google machine shops and jobs in Lafayette, IN.


GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 01:07:21


Post by: Ouze


 totalfailure wrote:
I must have missed the briefing where it was said that the world owes you a comfortable living just because


Maybe we didn't have a briefing, but (generally speaking) it doesn't seem too much to ask that some of the wealthiest countries in the world which house some of the wealthiest corporations in the world should compel said corporations to pay a living wage just because it's the right thing to do. The way that we govern ourselves isn't an abstract icon carved of stone we must mold our lives to, it exists to support society and should evolve as needed as society evolves.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Just Tony wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
I definitely believe without any doubt there are 2 identical factories near each other doing the exact same machine work, and the ones doing it for $11 an hour aren't doing it for $28 an hour solely because they settled and\or have no drive.

These are both union shops with the same union, right?


Or instead of calling me a liar Google machine shops and jobs in Lafayette, IN.


It's not really the first part I am super, super dubious on. I'm not disputing that Cat pays much more, I am disputing that it was an apple to apples comparison, and that both jobs are equally available, and it just so happens all the people that work at the one are too stupid or lazy to go next door and make their lives dramatically better. If only everyone at the other shop would put in the minimal effort!

What I am trying to say is that a lot of stuff goes into success, and saying "anyone can do it if they were simply ambitious like me" is just.... simple. Too simple, it's basically a dressed-up "f you, I got mine" bootstraps argument.

I am doing quite well for myself - with overtime, I expect I will just barely break 6 figures this year, or at least get very close to it (I'm an infrastructure engineer at a fortune 100 company, ironically very similar to yours). I didn't get where I am solely because of my ambition or gumption or drive (although those things played a part), but because of other things too:

  • From a young age I happened to be interested in something that turned out to be very in demand when by the time I became an adult, something impossible to have known as a teenager

  • I never got seriously ill, which matters a lot in my country

  • As a straight white-looking man, my country is engineered to tilt things slightly in my favor, or at least when not providing special rights, not singling me out for "special wrongs", and

  • an incredible amount of luck in addition of the other lucky stuff above


  • and I strongly suspect a lot of success stories involved some mix of those factors.




    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 03:47:22


    Post by: alextroy


    How much GW pays their employees is interesting and all, but whether they earn £20,000 a year or £100,000 a year, a £5,000 bonus on top of their normal profit sharing is a very generous bonus for a company to give. So why are we arguing about whether GW is a sweat shop or an upstanding corporate citizen when it comes to base pay?


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 06:25:27


    Post by: Lord Kragan


    Because it matters and recontextualizes the bonus from "generous" to "actually needed to meet minimum standards"?


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 06:45:02


    Post by: Hellebore


     alextroy wrote:
    How much GW pays their employees is interesting and all, but whether they earn £20,000 a year or £100,000 a year, a £5,000 bonus on top of their normal profit sharing is a very generous bonus for a company to give. So why are we arguing about whether GW is a sweat shop or an upstanding corporate citizen when it comes to base pay?


    meh, a bonus is like billionaire philanthropy - a cheap patch to avoid fixing a systemic problem.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 07:01:05


    Post by: puree


    Maybe we didn't have a briefing, but (generally speaking) it doesn't seem too much to ask that some of the wealthiest countries in the world which house some of the wealthiest corporations in the world should compel said corporations to pay a living wage just because it's the right thing to do.



    In the UK, and that is where GW is based, there are already definitions of what is minimum wage, either as a minimum or 'living'.

    The statutory 'living wage' for an adult full time was, last year, 17,600. The non government organisation that is commonly referenced and a number of companies ascribe to makes it out as 18,700.

    I don't know who people were talking about earlier, some ex employee, and didn't go back trying to find the original post, but it sounds like he was probably paid that or above if I understood the vague gist of time and salary.




    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Trying to out what this ex-employee thing was about, this isn't it I don't think, but from earlier in the thread:

    I turned down £18K for a studio role ten years earlier because even then it wasn't enough to move to Nottingham with my family


    10 years ago (if that what 'earlier' means) also happens to be when the living wage foundation moved to campaigning outside London, and became a more national organisation. Back then it campaigned for a national living wage of slightly over £14,000.

    So whilst £18,000 may not have been enough for someone to move etc, it was considerably above what was considered the living wage of that time. That was also quite a bit higher than what they were campaigning for as the London living wage 10 years ago never mind Nottingham.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 10:12:17


    Post by: MonkeyBallistic


    “The statutory 'living wage' for an adult full time was, last year, 17,600. The non government organisation that is commonly referenced and a number of companies ascribe to makes it out as 18,700.”

    The living wage is simply a level below which you’d be considered to be living in poverty. It’s usually used to demonstrate that the minimum wage isn’t actually enough to live on. It’s hardly something to aspire to. If I was the head of a multi-million pound profit making company and I was only paying the designers who make my products just above the living wage, I’d be ashamed.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 10:14:30


    Post by: Ian Sturrock


    puree wrote:


    Trying to out what this ex-employee thing was about, this isn't it I don't think, but from earlier in the thread:

    I turned down £18K for a studio role ten years earlier because even then it wasn't enough to move to Nottingham with my family


    10 years ago (if that what 'earlier' means) also happens to be when the living wage foundation moved to campaigning outside London, and became a more national organisation. Back then it campaigned for a national living wage of slightly over £14,000.

    So whilst £18,000 may not have been enough for someone to move etc, it was considerably above what was considered the living wage of that time. That was also quite a bit higher than what they were campaigning for as the London living wage 10 years ago never mind Nottingham.


    The context is, at that point I had 7 years of experience in the tabletop games industry, most of it as a full-time game designer, writer and editor. I'd written several award-winning tabletop games and supplements including working with GW's IP on e.g. The Old World Bestiary (Gold Ennie award winner).

    Yes £18K was higher than the living wage but it wasn't enough to relocate a family of three, and a professional game designer should be *getting more than the bare minimum* anyway.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 10:33:29


    Post by: TheGoodGerman


    puree wrote:
    Maybe we didn't have a briefing, but (generally speaking) it doesn't seem too much to ask that some of the wealthiest countries in the world which house some of the wealthiest corporations in the world should compel said corporations to pay a living wage just because it's the right thing to do.



    In the UK, and that is where GW is based, there are already definitions of what is minimum wage, either as a minimum or 'living'.

    The statutory 'living wage' for an adult full time was, last year, 17,600. The non government organisation that is commonly referenced and a number of companies ascribe to makes it out as 18,700.

    I don't know who people were talking about earlier, some ex employee, and didn't go back trying to find the original post, but it sounds like he was probably paid that or above if I understood the vague gist of time and salary.


    I would assume paying less would be illegal anyway, but I‘m not based in the UK.

    With this salary discussion, and especially when comparing salaries between eg US and Europe, I think everybody should keep in mind that we all come from different parts of the world and the legal and social ecosystems differ strongly. For example you would not have to pay for health care in UK.

    I think the bigger context is whether we (or in fact GW itself) should be content with the fact (if true) that the person who writes the rulebooks for their games that have been very successful commercially and, in addition to profits from selling the rules also fueled the sales of their corresponding miniatures lines, only gets paid around the bare legal minimum - essentially the same as someone stacking shelves in a supermarket. This does not look as if their contribution was recognized properly, and it surely does not give a good impression of GW as an employer.

    I do like the high-quality look and feel of many GW rulebooks. It‘s really a shame that the rules mechanics and writing in them do not always mirror that first impression (looking at you, Aeronautica; Bloodbowl rulebook is a positive exception imo). Also, the German translations are so wonky that I pretty much stopped buying German-language content from GW altogether.

    In short: GW should focus more on the quality of their rules design and writing, and honor it appropriately to attract and retain the best talent. They can clearly not only afford it, it might even be a comparatively cheap way to enhance their product.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 11:29:20


    Post by: Flinty


    In the UK, all taxpayers earning over about £9k pay "national insurance" that goes to various things, including funding the NHS. Its free at point of use, but it is still paid for by taxpayers.



    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 12:24:41


    Post by: puree


    The living wage is simply a level below which you’d be considered to be living in poverty.


    No its not. Poverty is generally measured by household, not individual. Whether such a person is in poverty will depend on their own circumstances. If it is some one on their own they may very well be above poverty level, if they are the sole earner in a large family then they have problems that even a higher wage may not solve. If it is a teen/young adult living with working parents that household is now probably way over poverty level. Given poverty is household based it becomes pointless trying to say an individuals wage is poverty level. People (companies or individuals) pay for services provided, and not some varying amount based on family size etc. I'm not paid more just because I have a family compared to a single person doing the same job.

    Further more, modern western poverty is almost always meaning relative poverty, i.e. relative to the median; which is defined in a way that almost requires that many people live in poverty. As I alluded to earlier the only way around that is a highly authoritarian government, as you need a form of governance which rejects the rights of individuals to seek to better themselves via higher paid work or to pay a 'market rate' to someone else.

    The living wage foundation, who have probably done more to push wages at the lower end than any other group in the UK, define their living wage as "a wage which meets everyday needs - like the weekly shop, or a surprise trip to the dentist." (Quote from their site)

    It is possible the Soviet Union avoided relative poverty, with its very low income spread, but I haven't looked at the stats that came out of there for a long time. But given the economic circumstances of the Soviet Union it is not exactly a place I would hold as a beacon of awesomeness.

    The problem is that no matter what wages are a 'living wage' there will always be those who claim it should be higher, and no matter how some group tries to work out some mechanism for calculating it in practical terms there will always be those who say they've got it wrong.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 12:53:15


    Post by: Audustum


     Ouze wrote:
     totalfailure wrote:
    I must have missed the briefing where it was said that the world owes you a comfortable living just because


    Maybe we didn't have a briefing, but (generally speaking) it doesn't seem too much to ask that some of the wealthiest countries in the world which house some of the wealthiest corporations in the world should compel said corporations to pay a living wage just because it's the right thing to do. The way that we govern ourselves isn't an abstract icon carved of stone we must mold our lives to, it exists to support society and should evolve as needed as society evolves.



    All a 'living wage' does is increase inflation and ultimately make itself pointless.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $1 for 1 widget, you have price equilibrium.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $5 for 2 widgets, you don't have price equilibrium. There's too many people who want widgets and not enough widgets. So the widget supplier is going to raise the price above $5 and see if it still clears out of widgets. If it does, it'll raise the price again and see if it clears out again and so on and on until it reaches a new equilibrium point (i.e. where it can clear 100 widgets at the highest price). If $10/widget sells 90 widgets but $9/widget sells 100 widgets, they'll do $9 so they don't have excess widget inventory.

    When you pay a 'living wage' all you're doing is increasing the amount of people who have $9 to buy a widget. So the widget supplier will raise prices in response and, ta-da, you'll end up back where the same 20 people are buying widgets as before you made a 'living wage'. All the wage increase did was increase the price of widgets (i.e. inflation). This is why you can't just flood more money to people: giving people more cash doesn't increase industrial capacity. If you want more people to get widgets, the way is actually to find a method of producing more widgets not giving more cash for people to bid up the price of widgets currently out there. That takes R&D, discovery of new natural resources and/or capital investment to build new facilities.

    Anyway, good on GW for the bonus. I hope it gives some extra cheer to its employees.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 14:32:04


    Post by: Gimgamgoo


    Audustum wrote:

    All a 'living wage' does is increase inflation and ultimately make itself pointless.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $1 for 1 widget, you have price equilibrium.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $5 for 2 widgets, you don't have price equilibrium. There's too many people who want widgets and not enough widgets. So the widget supplier is going to raise the price above $5 and see if it still clears out of widgets. If it does, it'll raise the price again and see if it clears out again and so on and on until it reaches a new equilibrium point (i.e. where it can clear 100 widgets at the highest price). If $10/widget sells 90 widgets but $9/widget sells 100 widgets, they'll do $9 so they don't have excess widget inventory.

    When you pay a 'living wage' all you're doing is increasing the amount of people who have $9 to buy a widget. So the widget supplier will raise prices in response and, ta-da, you'll end up back where the same 20 people are buying widgets as before you made a 'living wage'. All the wage increase did was increase the price of widgets (i.e. inflation). This is why you can't just flood more money to people: giving people more cash doesn't increase industrial capacity. If you want more people to get widgets, the way is actually to find a method of producing more widgets not giving more cash for people to bid up the price of widgets currently out there. That takes R&D, discovery of new natural resources and/or capital investment to build new facilities.

    Anyway, good on GW for the bonus. I hope it gives some extra cheer to its employees.


    So what this well written example really shows, is that due to the greed of Capitalism, some people will be destined to suffer the one life they get on this world, in poverty. They'll never be able to afford their 'widgets'/food/clothing/basic necessities.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 14:38:36


    Post by: GaroRobe


    I'm going to take a wild guess and say this thread will be locked soon.

    But has anyone else noticed the increased hostility on dakka lately? Not that there hasn't always been fights in the comment section, but recently there are a lot of new accounts just posting negative stuff.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 14:46:04


    Post by: Audustum


     GaroRobe wrote:
    I'm going to take a wild guess and say this thread will be locked soon.

    But has anyone else noticed the increased hostility on dakka lately? Not that there hasn't always been fights in the comment section, but recently there are a lot of new accounts just posting negative stuff.


    I've noticed it's become a very bitter forum.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Gimgamgoo wrote:
    Audustum wrote:

    All a 'living wage' does is increase inflation and ultimately make itself pointless.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $1 for 1 widget, you have price equilibrium.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $5 for 2 widgets, you don't have price equilibrium. There's too many people who want widgets and not enough widgets. So the widget supplier is going to raise the price above $5 and see if it still clears out of widgets. If it does, it'll raise the price again and see if it clears out again and so on and on until it reaches a new equilibrium point (i.e. where it can clear 100 widgets at the highest price). If $10/widget sells 90 widgets but $9/widget sells 100 widgets, they'll do $9 so they don't have excess widget inventory.

    When you pay a 'living wage' all you're doing is increasing the amount of people who have $9 to buy a widget. So the widget supplier will raise prices in response and, ta-da, you'll end up back where the same 20 people are buying widgets as before you made a 'living wage'. All the wage increase did was increase the price of widgets (i.e. inflation). This is why you can't just flood more money to people: giving people more cash doesn't increase industrial capacity. If you want more people to get widgets, the way is actually to find a method of producing more widgets not giving more cash for people to bid up the price of widgets currently out there. That takes R&D, discovery of new natural resources and/or capital investment to build new facilities.

    Anyway, good on GW for the bonus. I hope it gives some extra cheer to its employees.


    So what this well written example really shows, is that due to the greed of Capitalism, some people will be destined to suffer the one life they get on this world, in poverty. They'll never be able to afford their 'widgets'/food/clothing/basic necessities.


    Ideally, you'd want to just keep improving conditions to the point that bottom still equals good. My personal opinion is the incentive structure of many western economies is just thoroughly distorted though.

    None of which matters on the level of one company handing out bonuses though. This is a macro issue. GW giving bonuses is micro and very good for the bonus receivers. Outside of Wall Street I don't know of many American companies that do the same (even though it used to be standard for them, see National Lampoon's Christmas and the Simpsons, it was just understood you'd get a bonus once upon a time).


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 15:03:45


    Post by: deano2099


    Isn't the reason what GW pay rules writers matters is that it has a direct impact on the quality of the rules they put out?

    At £20k you really are only going to get newbies and once people gain experience, they'll move on. GW's rules systems are, by-and-large, "okay". But they would probably be loads better if they paid rules writers £40k instead of £20k. Because then you'd be recruiting established designers with years of experience. And given how few of those positions there are it feels like a relatively cheap move to massively improve the products.

    I do like GW, I own a lot of GW stuff, but my primary hobby is still board games and it's only in the old stuff like Space Hulk and Blood Bowl they get anywhere near to creating truly great rulesets. Sometimes I do think they're afraid of making a really great game, because then people might actually start getting into GW stuff because of the joy the game itself brings, and it might take the attention away from the models and the painting.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 15:18:14


    Post by: MonkeyBallistic


    deano2099 wrote:
    Isn't the reason what GW pay rules writers matters is that it has a direct impact on the quality of the rules they put out?

    At £20k you really are only going to get newbies and once people gain experience, they'll move on. GW's rules systems are, by-and-large, "okay". But they would probably be loads better if they paid rules writers £40k instead of £20k. Because then you'd be recruiting established designers with years of experience. And given how few of those positions there are it feels like a relatively cheap move to massively improve the products.

    I do like GW, I own a lot of GW stuff, but my primary hobby is still board games and it's only in the old stuff like Space Hulk and Blood Bowl they get anywhere near to creating truly great rulesets. Sometimes I do think they're afraid of making a really great game, because then people might actually start getting into GW stuff because of the joy the game itself brings, and it might take the attention away from the models and the painting.


    I’ll be honest, £40K is closer to the kind of money I thought rules writers would be getting.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 15:18:21


    Post by: NinthMusketeer


    What are other companies paying their rules writers? What are other rules writers at GW paid?


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 15:52:59


    Post by: puree


    So what this well written example really shows, is that due to the greed of Capitalism, some people will be destined to suffer the one life they get on this world, in poverty. They'll never be able to afford their 'widgets'/food/clothing/basic necessities.



    It certainly has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism. Free markets and inflation are not the same as capitalism. Inflation has devastated nations long before the advent of capitalism. It is a simple concept that when there is more demand for something than there is supply the price will go up, because there is no other fair way of choosing who should get something. Everyone will of course claim some subjective 'need', but ultimately the owner of some resource, be it a piece of furniture you made or a 2nd hand object, or some natural resource can't be the judge of random people's need - they barter for what they want; and now a days that tends to be money.

    I know someone who made collectible toys as a past time, and became quite popular. At which point she couldn't keep up with demand and became very stressed. Her partner used to go mad she that she wouldn't increase the price - because that would then reduce the demand to a point that she could cope. She would be better financially and less stressed. The price she sold at was an arbitrary price that had no link to reality. The market price is where the price would be too much for many and only leave those who wished to pay at a level where she could meet that demand. There is a clear and objective value to that product, and it is totally governed by supply and demand. It changes over time sure, and we may not know what it is at any moment in time, but the concept is pretty simple.

    Wages etc are exactly the same. Capitalism is irrelevant. Given time, more money in people pocket fuels demand, more demand boosts inflation. Higher costs for employers over time causes them to increase prices to be more profitable, because like you they want the best for themselves as well.

    In a liberal free society those who don't like that have a simple remedy, and it isn't demanding that others do stuff. They can go out and set up their own companies, or cooperatives etc and run them exactly as they think is right. If there are so many people who want to see higher pay then just go do it. I have a couple of family members who have run their own business, I know it ain't easy, but if they have the drive to do it then surely amongst the mass of people who don't like current wages their is some who have enough drive to actually go do it as well, pay what you think someone's worth rather than what the 'market' thinks?


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 16:36:44


    Post by: Albino Squirrel


     GaroRobe wrote:
    I'm going to take a wild guess and say this thread will be locked soon.

    But has anyone else noticed the increased hostility on dakka lately? Not that there hasn't always been fights in the comment section, but recently there are a lot of new accounts just posting negative stuff.


    It's not just new accounts. Dakka is a very bitter place, it seems like. However, once I started putting some of the worst offenders on ignore, it got much better. And these aren't new accounts, they're long time regulars. And I resisted doing it for a long time, because I hate putting anyone on ignore on any forum. But the place just isn't enjoyable if I have to read their posts, so why read them? Do yourself a favor and ignore a few of the worst offenders, and it will seem like a much better place.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 19:06:43


    Post by: Daedalus81


    Audustum wrote:
    All a 'living wage' does is increase inflation and ultimately make itself pointless.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $1 for 1 widget, you have price equilibrium.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $5 for 2 widgets, you don't have price equilibrium. There's too many people who want widgets and not enough widgets. So the widget supplier is going to raise the price above $5 and see if it still clears out of widgets. If it does, it'll raise the price again and see if it clears out again and so on and on until it reaches a new equilibrium point (i.e. where it can clear 100 widgets at the highest price). If $10/widget sells 90 widgets but $9/widget sells 100 widgets, they'll do $9 so they don't have excess widget inventory.

    When you pay a 'living wage' all you're doing is increasing the amount of people who have $9 to buy a widget. So the widget supplier will raise prices in response and, ta-da, you'll end up back where the same 20 people are buying widgets as before you made a 'living wage'. All the wage increase did was increase the price of widgets (i.e. inflation). This is why you can't just flood more money to people: giving people more cash doesn't increase industrial capacity. If you want more people to get widgets, the way is actually to find a method of producing more widgets not giving more cash for people to bid up the price of widgets currently out there. That takes R&D, discovery of new natural resources and/or capital investment to build new facilities.


    Come to America where you can pay the same for a Big Mac where ever you go, but in my state the minimum wage is $12 while in other states the minimum is $7.15. But the Big Mac stays the same price no matter what. Weird, right?

    And then my state has a lower cost of living that most others despite having a higher minimum.

    We're not talking about people getting paid enough to out strip scarcity items. We're talking baout them not having to choose between food and rent.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 19:24:38


    Post by: Albino Squirrel


    That is patently false. A big mac does not cost the same everywhere in America. And a large part of why it can be almost double in some places as in other is labor cost.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 19:40:25


    Post by: Audustum


     Daedalus81 wrote:
    Audustum wrote:
    All a 'living wage' does is increase inflation and ultimately make itself pointless.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $1 for 1 widget, you have price equilibrium.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $5 for 2 widgets, you don't have price equilibrium. There's too many people who want widgets and not enough widgets. So the widget supplier is going to raise the price above $5 and see if it still clears out of widgets. If it does, it'll raise the price again and see if it clears out again and so on and on until it reaches a new equilibrium point (i.e. where it can clear 100 widgets at the highest price). If $10/widget sells 90 widgets but $9/widget sells 100 widgets, they'll do $9 so they don't have excess widget inventory (like GW giving a bonus while most of the rest of the U.K. doesn't, to bring this a bit to the thread topic).

    When you pay a 'living wage' all you're doing is increasing the amount of people who have $9 to buy a widget. So the widget supplier will raise prices in response and, ta-da, you'll end up back where the same 20 people are buying widgets as before you made a 'living wage'. All the wage increase did was increase the price of widgets (i.e. inflation). This is why you can't just flood more money to people: giving people more cash doesn't increase industrial capacity. If you want more people to get widgets, the way is actually to find a method of producing more widgets not giving more cash for people to bid up the price of widgets currently out there. That takes R&D, discovery of new natural resources and/or capital investment to build new facilities.


    Come to America where you can pay the same for a Big Mac where ever you go, but in my state the minimum wage is $12 while in other states the minimum is $7.15. But the Big Mac stays the same price no matter what. Weird, right?

    And then my state has a lower cost of living that most others despite having a higher minimum.

    We're not talking about people getting paid enough to out strip scarcity items. We're talking baout them not having to choose between food and rent.


    A couple points.

    1. Many states are small enough that simply increasing their minimum wage won't fall into this trap because there is still so much of America that is not subject to that rule. In essence, the higher minimum wage state is piggy-backing off of the lower minimum wage states (mandating that its people are the $9/widget people and the others are not through fiat). This would only disguise it on a macro level. Inflation might still exist on a micro level.

    2. Since you mentioned Big Mac's, there's actually a project that's been running for over 30 years called the Big Mac Index. It uses Big Macs to keep track of currency valuations and you may find it interesting: ( https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index ).

    3. As noted, Big Macs don't actually cost the same in every state. A value meal in CA is around $7 I think (but that was 9 years ago) while in Missouri it's about $5 (also 9 years ago). Since McDonalds is rich enough it could standardize prices for convenience and just eat any regional loss, it's probably better to look at something as universal but not as centrally controlled: like the price of milk, which also fluctuates.

    4. Unfortunately, rent is no exception. If you raise minimum wage, more people will be able to afford new or better housing, which means landlords will raise rental rates because we haven't actually made any new housing for these people. People in rentals will want better rentals, people without rentals will want rentals and the net result is they'll bid themselves up just like with widgets and you end up back at square one.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 20:00:31


    Post by: Daedalus81


    Sure. It's a multi-factor problem including issues with gentrification, nimby, and so forth, which basically comes down to the people with money and power causing issues for people without.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 20:03:49


    Post by: Albino Squirrel


    So, you made up something completely false to try to prove your nonsense point. It turns out the truth is the exact opposite of the thing you made up, but you're going to pretend that doesn't demonstrate that your point was nonsense. And your justification is just to wave your hands and go "people with money are bad!"


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 20:41:39


    Post by: NinthMusketeer


    TBF on average they are.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 20:56:12


    Post by: BobtheInquisitor


    A light googling gives us 20% of the production cost of a Big Mac is labor. This doesn’t seem to be the gotcha you thought it was.

    Does anyone remember what percentage of the cost per mini or per rulebook is the labor, specifically creative labor?


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 21:01:11


    Post by: Daedalus81


     Albino Squirrel wrote:
    So, you made up something completely false to try to prove your nonsense point. It turns out the truth is the exact opposite of the thing you made up, but you're going to pretend that doesn't demonstrate that your point was nonsense. And your justification is just to wave your hands and go "people with money are bad!"


    But it isn't false. That you wish to characterize it as such is your choice. I'm in the top 8% or so, mind you. It isn't that people with money are bad. It's that people with money lack regard for how other people are affected by their actions.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 21:09:23


    Post by: Albino Squirrel


    Something being true or false is not a choice. What you said was not true.

    https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/financing/why-big-mac-costs-more-seattle-austin

    And don't project. If you don't care about how your actions affect other people, that's on you. Don't assume everyone else is the same. Just like not everyone lies about easily disproven things to try to make a point on the internet just because you do.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 21:17:22


    Post by: yukishiro1


     alextroy wrote:
    How much GW pays their employees is interesting and all, but whether they earn £20,000 a year or £100,000 a year, a £5,000 bonus on top of their normal profit sharing is a very generous bonus for a company to give. So why are we arguing about whether GW is a sweat shop or an upstanding corporate citizen when it comes to base pay?


    Because a "bonus" that you need to make ends meet isn't a bonus, it's a "bonus." Paying people close to poverty wages and then giving them occasional bonuses doesn't show generosity. But your response is why companies love bonuses - it allows them to underpay people while simultaneously generating good publicity and taking the moral high ground for being "generous."

    And it was always going to be a topic of conversation in this thread when an article conveniently appears in a well known paper a few days after revelations related to GW's pay practices, touting a bonus that was actually first reported by GW months prior. Is it a coincidence? Was the Grauniad always planning to release this story months after the news broke, and just happened to choose this particular day to do so despite there being no clear reason for it? I guess it's possible. But when timing is that convenient, people are always going to talk about both issues together.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 21:28:14


    Post by: Sarouan


    yukishiro1 wrote:

    Paying people close to poverty wages and then giving them occasional bonuses doesn't show generosity.


    To clarify and quote from the other topic in Dakka Discussion :

     lagoon83 wrote:
     kurhanik wrote:


    I would say a non poverty rate for start. Housing (I mean a roof over your head, not a grand estate) and food should be a right, not a privilege for a high paycheck. Nobody should have to live wondering where their next meal is going to come from or if they can make rent. Even moreso, nobody working full time especially should have to worry about those things. When a company is making hundreds of millions in profits on the back of its employees, it can easily slush some of that around into a stable pay rate structure.


    To be very clear, a salary of £19k in 2014 was a fair way above the poverty line. We were able to rent a house, pay bills and afford food. We were hardly living in the lap of luxury, our savings were constantly empty and we couldn't really afford holidays or expensive hobbies (ironically), but we weren't in poverty. There's a big difference.

    That's not to say the pay wasn't bad for the amount of work we were expected to put in, but like I said in the blog post, that's no different for any number of other corporate positions. The lesson here isn't that Games Workshop sucks, it's that Games Workshop is no better than any other big corporate office, but it's easy to forget that because of the hobby and community aspects.


    So stop saying they're "close to poverty wages", Yukishiro. That was false. You're trying to lie so that your argument has more impact.

    Saying it's "low" is the correct way to describe it.

    For reference, lagoon83 is James Hewitt.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 21:58:59


    Post by: Olthannon


    Yeah except when you're living like that with barely any savings, one bad month puts you into poverty. It's a thin line. I fething know exactly how thin. If you don't get it, then try and do a big think with your brain about how it must suck to struggle.

    People in this thread are complaining about a lack of reasoned debate here, but reasoned debate expects empathy as a minimum. People saying it's their fault for doing a job with gak pay haven't had to live on gak pay.

    This isn't just GW this is life in general. Surely that is pretty obvious? GW's 5k bonus is symptomatic of the entire system.

    If you're really trying to argue the toss that people don't deserve a better salary and should just try harder if they want to be able to live securely then have a word with yourself eh?


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/29 23:19:41


    Post by: Daedalus81


     Albino Squirrel wrote:
    Something being true or false is not a choice. What you said was not true.

    https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/financing/why-big-mac-costs-more-seattle-austin

    And don't project. If you don't care about how your actions affect other people, that's on you. Don't assume everyone else is the same. Just like not everyone lies about easily disproven things to try to make a point on the internet just because you do.


    Yea look at that data more closely. Oklahoma price is $5.09 with a minimum wage of $7.25. Maine is a price of $4.79 with a minimum wage of $12. And Maine isn't exactly on the right end of the supply chain. Just because some really expensive metro areas raise prices, because their economics are so horrible through gentrification doesn't mean the premise it isn't correct.

    A big mac is 40% in the $14 market and 61% in the $7.25 market. If the trend was consistent the big mac would be over $8 in the $14 market, but it isn't.





    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 00:12:31


    Post by: Togusa




    Supposedly this guy backpaddled on twitter, but I can't find it. Can anyone confirm that, or have a link? Or is this just misinformation?


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 00:15:49


    Post by: Albino Squirrel


    Come to America where you can pay the same for a Big Mac where ever you go


    No, you lied about that. That was a lie. You can't choose for something to be true or false, but you do choose what to believe. And you have chosen to make up lies in order to justify the nonsense that you've chosen to believe.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 00:46:00


    Post by: gorgon


     GaroRobe wrote:
    I'm going to take a wild guess and say this thread will be locked soon.

    But has anyone else noticed the increased hostility on dakka lately? Not that there hasn't always been fights in the comment section, but recently there are a lot of new accounts just posting negative stuff.


    I go back a fair ways on this forum. It's been a gakshow lately, but it's been a bigger gakshow at other points in its history. The point right before Yakface took over was rough...albeit with a small fraction of the traffic.

    Part of it is the moderation approach. Call someone a big dummy and you get a time out. Derail thread after thread, gak all over everything, contribute nothing useful, do the same tired carping seen 1000 times before including probably just last week, insult people *just the slightest bit indirectly*...yeah, that's all good. It is what it is and it isn't changing.



    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 01:38:45


    Post by: stratigo


     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    I came in to see how the black knights would spin this as a bad thing, not disappointed!

    Good on GW for paying it back.


    Are you still going to die on the hill that GW employees are paid adequately?

    Cause they still aint.

    GW hasn't changed in the last 5 years in regards to salary, mostly just treading water with inflation. At least for designers.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 01:46:15


    Post by: Daedalus81


     Albino Squirrel wrote:
    Come to America where you can pay the same for a Big Mac where ever you go


    No, you lied about that. That was a lie. You can't choose for something to be true or false, but you do choose what to believe. And you have chosen to make up lies in order to justify the nonsense that you've chosen to believe.


    Nope, I didn't lie. That there has been some drift since I last bothered to look at the info doesn't mean that the cost of the big mac is tied to minimum wage as the data still shows it is not.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 02:10:55


    Post by: NinthMusketeer


    stratigo wrote:
     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    I came in to see how the black knights would spin this as a bad thing, not disappointed!

    Good on GW for paying it back.


    Are you still going to die on the hill that GW employees are paid adequately?

    Cause they still aint.

    GW hasn't changed in the last 5 years in regards to salary, mostly just treading water with inflation. At least for designers.
    Heads up; pretty sure you quoted me accidentally instead of a different post.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Daedalus81 wrote:
     Albino Squirrel wrote:
    Come to America where you can pay the same for a Big Mac where ever you go


    No, you lied about that. That was a lie. You can't choose for something to be true or false, but you do choose what to believe. And you have chosen to make up lies in order to justify the nonsense that you've chosen to believe.


    Nope, I didn't lie. That there has been some drift since I last bothered to look at the info doesn't mean that the cost of the big mac is tied to minimum wage as the data still shows it is not.
    I think anyone reasonable understands the validity of the point you were trying to make even if the initial claim was inaccurate. Which is to say this is probably one of those 'leave it and move on' situations.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 02:14:19


    Post by: stratigo


     the_scotsman wrote:
     Daedalus81 wrote:
     Gene St. Ealer wrote:
     Daedalus81 wrote:
    GW has 2,191 employees which works when you divide the 10.6M by 5K.

    The pay rises across the board amounted to 7.8%, which is pretty hefty by normal standards.

    Total staff costs are 99.9M making the average salary at GW a bit above 45K pounds as an average.





    Eh, I don't know about that. You can't assume 100% of staff costs are salary. No clue how benefits packages work in the UK or whether they are part of this, but there's likely still other overhead that would go into a "staff cost" number. I would be pretty surprised if the average salary was over twice what Hewitt was making (even though I wouldn't be surprised if he was making below the median.)

    Levels.fyi for hobbyists when?


    True, but I have no idea how that stuff works in the UK. In the US my employer pays like 50% of insurance, which is like $9000 a year for garbage insurance. I imagine the UK bills that through taxes instead.


    Yeah, that is true, basically any comparison with salaries in the US has to take into account the fact that like 10k a year of what you make in the us is "Oh, you wanted to not die if you get sick or have an accident? Well in that case...." but still even accounting for that if true that number is pretty silly. The mcdonalds across the street from me is currently advertising for a night shift job that pays almost twice that....


    American healthcare costs are also mostly funny money that literally no one else in the world pays for the same treatments.

     gorgon wrote:
    No, it's the employee's fault if they STAY in a job where they're getting paid like feth and don't explore other opportunities. It's their fault if they don't use an entry-level position as a platform for trading up to its fullest extent. And it's their responsibility to carefully assess their finances before taking a job with a given salary.

    TL;DR - Companies look out for themselves and their bottom line, but people have agency and need to use it.


    And they should use it to unioni.... oops the company fired everyone trying to collectivize their power and fight for better compensation. So sad. But hey, they could have hired armed murderers to kill them, so silver linings.

     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    While the bs corporations get away with is well established, let's not forget that individuals can be just as misleading, dishonest, and self-serving as they are. We shouldn't inherently trust an individual is giving an accurate account any more than we should do so with a corporation, media outlet, or politician--not only are people fully capable of willfully misrepresenting the truth they are even more capable of misunderstanding it, and the fallibility of human memory heaps more problems on top of that.

    It's down to the evidence. What evidence is there that the entity is communicating the truth? If the account was misleading (by accident or otherwise) how would we know?

    For the record I am not speaking for or against anyone involved in this.



    Come on dude, you are clearly posting to throw doubt on Hewitt.

    And, like, you KNOW current GW employees can't publically talk about their wages without being fired.

    But it remains still very low.

    puree wrote:
    I always find funny this kind of arguments were corporations and multinationals have 0 power over peoples lives.


    I'm not saying they have no power over your lives though.

    The worth of your service, and therefore your wage, is based on simple demand and supply - therefore it is other people who are your enemy and not the corporation.

    Most people would not get 3 quotes for new windows and take the highest if all else is equal, neither do they deliberately go to the most expensive shop to get the exact same thing they can get cheaper. Our services are exactly the same - if you are offering the same thing as a lot of others when there are not that many jobs around for that skillset then the corporation is not the problem.


    This is not and has never been true mate.

    Capitalism fails when power is badly imbalanced, as it is between an individual and a corporation.

    puree wrote:
    You're right--I'm not making an argument against your position. I don't disagree with the point you are making. Nor do I assume what your situation is, that is you reading into my comment. I am pointing out that the language you are using sounds like judgement-from-afar without any real world experience as to what it is actually like for people in such a position. That's it.


    Really, what language dictates that? I've flipped burgers in Macdonalds, worked 80 hours a week in a fish factory, I've had banks threatening bailiff over debts, I've watched what little money I had disappear as I tried to raise a child and worry about how to pay for the next car service etc.

    I've also spent all my waking hours teaching myself new skills, and taking it on myself to improve my own life rather than whine that others are not doing it for me.


    I'm sure.

    How much do you make now?

     totalfailure wrote:
    I must have missed the briefing where it was said that the world owes you a comfortable living just because you’re following your dream to be a ‘game designer’. It’s a job with few positions, and a lot of people willing to do it. Thus, it does not pay well, because they can find the next moron ‘following their dream’ easily enough when you get sick of the low pay. Until that changes, the pay will be low.

    It’s gotten that way with college degrees, to the point many of them are meaningless. Does the world owe you a comfortable life because you went $200K in debt studying 17th century French literature? Or were you a fool for ‘following your dream’ and studying something that had almost zero career path?

    And now your student loan debt is my problem, because you studied something useless, and bought into the mantra chanted by the mind numbed robots - ‘Everyone must go to college! Everyone needs a degree!’ A high school degree is virtually worthless in the USA now. When everyone has a college degree, they will be worthless as well. AS and BS degrees are all but toilet paper now; soon you’ll need a master’s for an entry level job, thanks to the industrial-education complex.


    Why is jeff Bezos entitled to his billions and not have most of them taken (still leaving him with, say, one hundred million)?



     GaroRobe wrote:
    I'm going to take a wild guess and say this thread will be locked soon.

    But has anyone else noticed the increased hostility on dakka lately? Not that there hasn't always been fights in the comment section, but recently there are a lot of new accounts just posting negative stuff.


    Some people in America tried to overthrow democracy and have decided a pandemic is actually a political issue, ignore the corpses. It raised all the tensions.

     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    What are other companies paying their rules writers? What are other rules writers at GW paid?


    About the same from a couple other positions.

    Retail gets paid more.

    Audustum wrote:
     Daedalus81 wrote:
    Audustum wrote:
    All a 'living wage' does is increase inflation and ultimately make itself pointless.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $1 for 1 widget, you have price equilibrium.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $5 for 2 widgets, you don't have price equilibrium. There's too many people who want widgets and not enough widgets. So the widget supplier is going to raise the price above $5 and see if it still clears out of widgets. If it does, it'll raise the price again and see if it clears out again and so on and on until it reaches a new equilibrium point (i.e. where it can clear 100 widgets at the highest price). If $10/widget sells 90 widgets but $9/widget sells 100 widgets, they'll do $9 so they don't have excess widget inventory (like GW giving a bonus while most of the rest of the U.K. doesn't, to bring this a bit to the thread topic).

    When you pay a 'living wage' all you're doing is increasing the amount of people who have $9 to buy a widget. So the widget supplier will raise prices in response and, ta-da, you'll end up back where the same 20 people are buying widgets as before you made a 'living wage'. All the wage increase did was increase the price of widgets (i.e. inflation). This is why you can't just flood more money to people: giving people more cash doesn't increase industrial capacity. If you want more people to get widgets, the way is actually to find a method of producing more widgets not giving more cash for people to bid up the price of widgets currently out there. That takes R&D, discovery of new natural resources and/or capital investment to build new facilities.


    Come to America where you can pay the same for a Big Mac where ever you go, but in my state the minimum wage is $12 while in other states the minimum is $7.15. But the Big Mac stays the same price no matter what. Weird, right?

    And then my state has a lower cost of living that most others despite having a higher minimum.

    We're not talking about people getting paid enough to out strip scarcity items. We're talking baout them not having to choose between food and rent.


    A couple points.

    1. Many states are small enough that simply increasing their minimum wage won't fall into this trap because there is still so much of America that is not subject to that rule. In essence, the higher minimum wage state is piggy-backing off of the lower minimum wage states (mandating that its people are the $9/widget people and the others are not through fiat). This would only disguise it on a macro level. Inflation might still exist on a micro level.

    2. Since you mentioned Big Mac's, there's actually a project that's been running for over 30 years called the Big Mac Index. It uses Big Macs to keep track of currency valuations and you may find it interesting: ( https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index ).

    3. As noted, Big Macs don't actually cost the same in every state. A value meal in CA is around $7 I think (but that was 9 years ago) while in Missouri it's about $5 (also 9 years ago). Since McDonalds is rich enough it could standardize prices for convenience and just eat any regional loss, it's probably better to look at something as universal but not as centrally controlled: like the price of milk, which also fluctuates.

    4. Unfortunately, rent is no exception. If you raise minimum wage, more people will be able to afford new or better housing, which means landlords will raise rental rates because we haven't actually made any new housing for these people. People in rentals will want better rentals, people without rentals will want rentals and the net result is they'll bid themselves up just like with widgets and you end up back at square one.


    Mcdonalds franchises. They don't standardize because most mcdonalds are effectively separate from mcdonalds the corporate entity.



    Housing is an extremely poor example because more housing doesn't lower prices. Landlords and house developers will sit on empty houses until someone meets their price, and if no one does, they will sit on it forever.

    Sarouan wrote:
    yukishiro1 wrote:

    Paying people close to poverty wages and then giving them occasional bonuses doesn't show generosity.


    To clarify and quote from the other topic in Dakka Discussion :

     lagoon83 wrote:
     kurhanik wrote:


    I would say a non poverty rate for start. Housing (I mean a roof over your head, not a grand estate) and food should be a right, not a privilege for a high paycheck. Nobody should have to live wondering where their next meal is going to come from or if they can make rent. Even moreso, nobody working full time especially should have to worry about those things. When a company is making hundreds of millions in profits on the back of its employees, it can easily slush some of that around into a stable pay rate structure.


    To be very clear, a salary of £19k in 2014 was a fair way above the poverty line. We were able to rent a house, pay bills and afford food. We were hardly living in the lap of luxury, our savings were constantly empty and we couldn't really afford holidays or expensive hobbies (ironically), but we weren't in poverty. There's a big difference.

    That's not to say the pay wasn't bad for the amount of work we were expected to put in, but like I said in the blog post, that's no different for any number of other corporate positions. The lesson here isn't that Games Workshop sucks, it's that Games Workshop is no better than any other big corporate office, but it's easy to forget that because of the hobby and community aspects.


    So stop saying they're "close to poverty wages", Yukishiro. That was false. You're trying to lie so that your argument has more impact.

    Saying it's "low" is the correct way to describe it.

    For reference, lagoon83 is James Hewitt.



    Look up what is considered poverty in 2014. 20k is close to it.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 12:19:11


    Post by: Sarouan


    stratigo wrote:

    Look up what is considered poverty in 2014. 20k is close to it.


    And from the same topic, here is why what you think is wrong (short version ; UK isn't the US)


     techsoldaten wrote:
     lagoon83 wrote:
     kurhanik wrote:


    I would say a non poverty rate for start. Housing (I mean a roof over your head, not a grand estate) and food should be a right, not a privilege for a high paycheck. Nobody should have to live wondering where their next meal is going to come from or if they can make rent. Even moreso, nobody working full time especially should have to worry about those things. When a company is making hundreds of millions in profits on the back of its employees, it can easily slush some of that around into a stable pay rate structure.


    To be very clear, a salary of £19k in 2014 was a fair way above the poverty line. We were able to rent a house, pay bills and afford food. We were hardly living in the lap of luxury, our savings were constantly empty and we couldn't really afford holidays or expensive hobbies (ironically), but we weren't in poverty. There's a big difference.

    That's not to say the pay wasn't bad for the amount of work we were expected to put in, but like I said in the blog post, that's no different for any number of other corporate positions. The lesson here isn't that Games Workshop sucks, it's that Games Workshop is no better than any other big corporate office, but it's easy to forget that because of the hobby and community aspects.


    Yeah. £19k sounds really bad compared to the same amount USD, it's hard for people to put into perspective. If it was $19k, you'd be living very close to the bone in any US city.

    For the record, salaried creatives (in the broad sense) often receive inadequate compensation relative to sales. Salaries are typically based on industry averages, and this includes people working for companies that do not enjoy the same success as GW. Something like 90% of new product offerings fail to find a product-market fit, this factors into compensation for everyone in industry.

    The US Bureau of Labor and Statistics maintains salary data for job classifications across a wide spectrum of professions.

    https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm

    Not sure exactly where 'game designer' fit into these categories, but multimedia designer and animators is a close cousin.

    https://www.bls.gov/oes/2019/may/oes271014.htm

    Technical writer might be a good comparison as well.

    https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes273042.htm

    Were one to account for differences in currency, annual leave, healthcare / social services, taxes, etc., your compensation would have put you in the lower half / bottom quadrant by either of these measures.

    Your assessment that this is common amongst public companies is spot on. Any publicly-traded company receives audited financial statements annually. During this process, accountants look at labor codes for every employee and compare them with the figures cited. Overcompensation affects stock prices and the board will exert pressure to bring any exceptional compensation in line with market norms. Accountants will compare compensation to market cap of the company and it's competitors, a company that's not at the top of it's industry can actually be sued by shareholders in the US and UK for labor costs exceeding the median in any category. Plus the last thing any C-level executive wants is to have employee compensation come up on an earnings call, this is a figure most CEOs actively manage.

    Something to consider: niche positions like 'rules writer' will often be classified in the stupidest way possible by an accountant who doesn't understand the first thing about how the company actually works. It's not necessarily that the company doesn't want to pay you, it's that there's top down pressure to conform to boundaries on how compensation should work.

    An effective strategy for someone in this position could be to argue the position is miscategorized and undercompensated based on industry averages. Your direct report might not understand the issue, but a director or officer would. You might find they are very sympathetic when you're speaking their language.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 20:02:47


    Post by: NinthMusketeer


    I just think there are a lot more people who want to get paid to write rules than there are positions.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 21:08:44


    Post by: MaxT


    stratigo wrote:
    Look up what is considered poverty in 2014. 20k is close to it.


    OK.

    The threshold for being at risk of poverty in 2014 was a disposable income of £9,956 for a single-person household without children


    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/articles/persistentpovertyintheukandeu/2014

    The ONS is regarded as an excellent source of statistical data in the uk.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 21:46:00


    Post by: Ian Sturrock


     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    I just think there are a lot more people who want to get paid to write rules than there are positions.


    That doesn't mean that people who get paid to write rules aren't skilled, experienced, and deserving of a decent salary, particularly when the rules they write help their employer make huge profits.

    Most of my jobs in my working life (i.e. 30 years / 18 jobs, something like that?) have been stuff I really enjoyed doing. I rarely pursued high wages. But, whether I was doing theatre work, or designing games, or teaching game design, I did the job because I needed to pay the rent/mortgage and support my family, not because it was fun. I'm happy that it *has* often been fun. Doesn't mean I want to work more than 37 hours a week, though, or not take my gods-given 35 holiday days a year, or take a low wage.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 21:58:40


    Post by: Albino Squirrel


    Well, to the person giving you the money, it doesn't matter much what you think you deserve. It matters what value you are providing them for the money they are giving you. And if there are plenty of other people just as good at it as you are, or at least good enough for their purposes, and those people are willing to do it for less, then you have to accept less or find something else to do. I mean, they may think THEY deserve 60 hours of your time every week, but you might not be willing to give that much of your time. Doesn't make you a bad person for not giving it to them, does it?


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 22:10:49


    Post by: Ian Sturrock


    Absolutely, but it still *doesn't make it OK* that GW (a) is fine with massively underpaying their creative talent and (b) is fine with churning out whatever rules people will buy.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/30 23:32:15


    Post by: yukishiro1


     Albino Squirrel wrote:
    Well, to the person giving you the money, it doesn't matter much what you think you deserve. It matters what value you are providing them for the money they are giving you.


    No, what matters is not the value you provide, but how much of that value they can get away with pocketing by paying you less than the value you provide. And with workers, this depends much less on the value you provide in the abstract and much more upon the balance of power between workers and employers in the given industry. If you're the only one who can do a needed task, you get to name your price; if there's 100 starving people lined up to give the corporation 100k of value for their labor, they can get away with paying far less than that because they can play the starving off against one another to bid down the price.

    Salaries in most cases depend comparatively little on value added, and much more on relative bargaining power.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 00:29:50


    Post by: NinthMusketeer


     Ian Sturrock wrote:
     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    I just think there are a lot more people who want to get paid to write rules than there are positions.


    That doesn't mean that people who get paid to write rules aren't skilled, experienced, and deserving of a decent salary, particularly when the rules they write help their employer make huge profits.
    On a moral level absolutely. But that's just not how capitalism works. It isn't that I feel there's nothing wrong, it's that I feel the wrong is far larger than GW. GW isn't any worse than the standard society has set. We can absolutely criticize them for not doing better, but I feel like there is a strong sentiment that GW is *worse* than the norm when that isn't the case. The norm is just really crappy.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 00:58:02


    Post by: BobtheInquisitor


    I don’t get that sentiment. I get more of a “GW is just as bad as everyone else” sentiment, not worse. But they’re a company we are more familiar with and might have more influence over through the small size and interconnectedness of their customer community.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 10:27:46


    Post by: MonkeyBallistic


    It makes me wonder how much creatives at other wargaming companies get paid. You’d think, given it’s the biggest, most profitable company in its industry, GW would be paying more than anyone else to attract the best people. I somehow doubt that’s the case though.

    This feels more like a strategy of attract the eager young designers as an injection of fresh ideas, then let them move on once you’ve milked them of creativity. Meanwhile, the same people stay in management positions for decades, presumably on decent wages.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 10:43:53


    Post by: NAVARRO


     MonkeyBallistic wrote:
    It makes me wonder how much creatives at other wargaming companies get paid. You’d think, given it’s the biggest, most profitable company in its industry, GW would be paying more than anyone else to attract the best people. I somehow doubt that’s the case though.

    This feels more like a strategy of attract the eager young designers as an injection of fresh ideas, then let them move on once you’ve milked them of creativity. Meanwhile, the same people stay in management positions for decades, presumably on decent wages.



    Creatives pay + Find yourself another 9 to 5 steady job to pay bills = Okish

    We do creative work because we like it not because it pays anything decent or continuous in this tiny industry and GW knows it.

    Reading all these GW related recent topics you need to consider something... the red flags are all raised so dare at your own risk.
    Before these topics, there was already some 'strange' feedback ( not public) from other ex creative employees... but if you read carefully for the positions they advertise theres already some hints there.



    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 11:10:56


    Post by: MonkeyBallistic


     NAVARRO wrote:


    We do creative work because we like it not because it pays anything decent or continuous in this tiny industry and GW knows it.



    On the other hand you have ‘creatives’ such as big name actors earning 7 or 8 figure salaries per movie and the justification is always to look at the money they are earning for the studio. GW is making record profits and is the biggest player in its field. I’m sure if could pay its creatives a wage that really reflects the profits their work earns for the company.

    For the record, I would have happily played Iron Man for a tenth of what they had to pay RDJ, but I wouldn’t have done it for £20k per year.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 11:46:24


    Post by: NAVARRO


     MonkeyBallistic wrote:
     NAVARRO wrote:


    We do creative work because we like it not because it pays anything decent or continuous in this tiny industry and GW knows it.



    On the other hand you have ‘creatives’ such as big name actors earning 7 or 8 figure salaries per movie and the justification is always to look at the money they are earning for the studio. GW is making record profits and is the biggest player in its field. I’m sure if could pay its creatives a wage that really reflects the profits their work earns for the company.

    For the record, I would have happily played Iron Man for a tenth of what they had to pay RDJ, but I wouldn’t have done it for £20k per year.


    Yeah but you want to bet that you could find someone to do it for free?

    Obviously the "artist" credit is been a bit lacking since they moved more into 3d. Speaking of sculpting mostly today you dont see anyone credited since the process is very different... same goes for new concept art etc... What im saying is that apart from the old sculptors artist that still work there and are credited you dont know much of who did what. Unlike actors or the guys that are on GW twitch/painting tutorials most is anonymous.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 21:10:32


    Post by: Ian Sturrock


    For me the issue is that by pretty much any metric, GW *is* worse on this matter than comparable companies. Even allowing for capitalism being a bit crap generally.

    It is hard to figure out which companies to compare them to, admittedly.

    Still. My experience of the tabletop games industry is that the big-ish names in any field (RPGs, boardgames, and wargames) all pay a bit better than GW does, for game design. These days I also teach computer games design and have a bit of a sense of what designers, games writers, etc. are paid in that field, thanks to talking to alumni, and... GW still falls significantly short.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 21:25:35


    Post by: yukishiro1


     Ian Sturrock wrote:
    For me the issue is that by pretty much any metric, GW *is* worse on this matter than comparable companies. Even allowing for capitalism being a bit crap generally.

    It is hard to figure out which companies to compare them to, admittedly.

    Still. My experience of the tabletop games industry is that the big-ish names in any field (RPGs, boardgames, and wargames) all pay a bit better than GW does, for game design. These days I also teach computer games design and have a bit of a sense of what designers, games writers, etc. are paid in that field, thanks to talking to alumni, and... GW still falls significantly short.


    Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.





    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 21:33:56


    Post by: A Town Called Malus


    MaxT wrote:
    stratigo wrote:
    Look up what is considered poverty in 2014. 20k is close to it.


    OK.

    The threshold for being at risk of poverty in 2014 was a disposable income of £9,956 for a single-person household without children


    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/articles/persistentpovertyintheukandeu/2014

    The ONS is regarded as an excellent source of statistical data in the uk.


    After tax, £20k becomes £17,264.

    Okay, so we have to end up with more than £9,956 a year to not be classed as being at risk of poverty. What is the average rent in Nottingham for a one bedroom flat? ~£700pcm so that is ~£8400 per year.

    So after rent we are left with £8864. Oh dear. We haven't factored in water, electricity, gas, travel costs for getting to work or food yet and we are already under the disposable income bracket which characterises us as being at risk of poverty.

    Also, having read through that, they are using a very strange definition of "disposable income". They say that disposable income is what is left after Income Tax, National Insurance and Council Tax are subtracted. So before factoring in any living costs, such as rent or mortgage payments. That seems a very strange definition seeing as council tax is determined by the value of the property you live in, which will also determine your monthly rent or mortgage payments.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 21:54:01


    Post by: Daedalus81


     A Town Called Malus wrote:
    MaxT wrote:
    stratigo wrote:
    Look up what is considered poverty in 2014. 20k is close to it.


    OK.

    The threshold for being at risk of poverty in 2014 was a disposable income of £9,956 for a single-person household without children


    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/articles/persistentpovertyintheukandeu/2014

    The ONS is regarded as an excellent source of statistical data in the uk.


    After tax, £20k becomes £17,264.

    Okay, so lets round up to £10k disposable income for ease of maths. What is the average rent in Nottingham for a one bedroom flat? ~£700pcm so that is ~£8400 per year.

    So after rent we are left with £8864. Oh dear. We haven't factored in water, electricity, gas or food yet and we are already under the disposable income bracket which characterises us as being at risk of poverty.


    That's still worlds better than a minimum wage worker in the US.

    Imagine a worker in Oklahoma City. Minimum comes to $15,080 annually. Average rent is $845 leaving under $5,000 for everything else.

    No vacation.
    No health insurance.
    No pension / retirement.
    No paternity leave.
    No sick days.
    Little public transport.

    It makes me less concerned for Hewitt's position when he can still take time off, has no medical cost concerns, and lives in a country that recognizes the value of public transit.

    Which isn't to say that I don't believe in a rising tide lifting all boats regardless.



    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 21:56:59


    Post by: yukishiro1


    "He was better off than a minimum wage worker in a country and state famous for its lack of worker rights and protections."

    LOL. Talk about damning with faint praise.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 23:05:31


    Post by: MaxT


     A Town Called Malus wrote:
    MaxT wrote:
    stratigo wrote:
    Look up what is considered poverty in 2014. 20k is close to it.


    OK.

    The threshold for being at risk of poverty in 2014 was a disposable income of £9,956 for a single-person household without children


    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/articles/persistentpovertyintheukandeu/2014

    The ONS is regarded as an excellent source of statistical data in the uk.


    After tax, £20k becomes £17,264.

    Okay, so we have to end up with more than £9,956 a year to not be classed as being at risk of poverty. What is the average rent in Nottingham for a one bedroom flat? ~£700pcm so that is ~£8400 per year.

    So after rent we are left with £8864. Oh dear. We haven't factored in water, electricity, gas, travel costs for getting to work or food yet and we are already under the disposable income bracket which characterises us as being at risk of poverty.

    Also, having read through that, they are using a very strange definition of "disposable income". They say that disposable income is what is left after Income Tax, National Insurance and Council Tax are subtracted. So before factoring in any living costs, such as rent or mortgage payments. That seems a very strange definition seeing as council tax is determined by the value of the property you live in, which will also determine your monthly rent or mortgage payments.


    So as per the ONS definition, a salary of £20k =£17,264 after income tax+NI = ~£16k after council tax (approx band C + single person discount). Pretty sure £16k is well above £9,956.

    GW pay gak, deffo. But let’s not pretend it’s poverty.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 23:37:58


    Post by: puree


    Also, having read through that, they are using a very strange definition of "disposable income". They say that disposable income is what is left after Income Tax, National Insurance and Council Tax are subtracted. So before factoring in any living costs, such as rent or mortgage payments. That seems a very strange definition seeing as council tax is determined by the value of the property you live in, which will also determine your monthly rent or mortgage payments.


    It's no stranger than any other term which has a technical meaning. For income and poverty calculations it is a fairly well understood term (but often calculated slightly different in various regions of the world to represent differences in economies or social norms etc).

    It includes pretty much all income coming into the household (including benefits and tax credits) minus the major taxes/contributions. That last bit of course varies by country, as countries have different taxes. The UK includes council tax, as it is a major tax on a household and is fixed by the rateable value of the house and, contrary to your view, often has little relation to rent/mortgage. E.g. I pay the same council tax as most people down my street, as most houses on it probably fall in the same band, but I very probably pay a very different mortgage/rent on it given I've been here over 20 years and almost paid the mortgage off. someone renting a house like mine would pay a lot more, someone who just bought it this year on a 95% mortgage would be paying more. Most pensioners who own a place probably have no rent/mortgage at that point in their lives, but will still have council tax which relative to their pension could be significant (but likely offset by a rebate, which will count as income).

    It is also looking at the household as much as the individual income. The income used is also 'equivalised' by house hold size, again following well recognised concepts, The euro version maths is different to the OECD one, but it is in essence doing the same thing. Therefore, any figure that would be given for an individual does not of necessity represent their actual income.

    For example (and I may be overly simplifying here) if 2 people live together with no one else and they both earn 17k (after taxes and benefits etc) they will be considered to have an income for purposes of poverty discussion, I believe, of 22.6K. This represent that 2 earners in the same household are usually far better off than a lone person as they are sharing a lot of the household costs. On the other hand if only 1 of them works then that 17k is equivalised to only 11.3K representing that a single earner supporting an additional adult is in a worse position as someone on their own.

    which goes back to what I said in an earlier post. You cannot simply look at what pay you were offered and say that is poverty level; as poverty is household based and not simply 1 persons salary.

    The point here is to get to some notion of 'disposable' income that you then have available to spend on things like rent/mortgage/food etc after accounting for size of household.

    However, note there are many ways of measuring poverty and there are versions based on post housing costs (usually just rent/mortgage, not usually energy, food, water etc), but they are, to best of my understanding or at least based on when I see them used, more commonly used when trying to measure relative poverty rather than absolute poverty.

    If we take the above 9.9K as true (I didn't go and check) then I would assume it could represent something along the following lines (just very finger in the air to give a feel, and subject to late night maths failure).

    1 person on their own on whose income is probably about ~10.5K.
    1 person with a partner who does not work, earning about 18K. way above 9.9K but paying Income tax/NI and supporting the other person.
    1 person living with someone else earning the same as them, 8K. they are each lower than the 9.9K, but sharing household costs mitigates.
    The above person but with 2 children, they each earn 10k. The children alter the household factor against them, but offset by child benefit income.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/07/31 23:44:32


    Post by: yukishiro1


    You couldn't afford to have your own 1-bedroom place in Nottingham on that salary; more than half your post-tax income would go to rent, which is nearly double what the common definition of affordability is.

    "We don't pay our game designers enough to rent a place on their own, but it's not technically a poverty wage!" isn't a great tagline for GW to have to roll out.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 00:14:24


    Post by: puree


    They don't use that tag line though do they!

    Trying to argue a salary is poverty level, when it isn't is just ranting for the sake of it. Yet people are saying just that.

    GW pay a low wage compared to the average certainly. It is, however, at or above the minimum set by the successive governments of both left and right wing, and that is for the most part going to keep most people out of what would normally be accepted as poverty. It is, indeed, sort of the whole point of the minimum wage.

    The median rent in Nottingham for a 1 bed place is 8,400 per year, but note that is median not the minimum you have to pay. There are places for 6000 or less per year in the area. If it is a young person in particular it is not uncommon to share a larger place to reduce the rent and council tax burden (My own child is currently looking to share with a couple of friends and looking at quite nice places that will be cheaper than a 1 person flat between 3 of them).


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 00:39:18


    Post by: Daedalus81


    yukishiro1 wrote:
    "He was better off than a minimum wage worker in a country and state famous for its lack of worker rights and protections."

    LOL. Talk about damning with faint praise.


    I know, I know.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 00:47:42


    Post by: yukishiro1


    puree wrote:
    They don't use that tag line though do they!

    Trying to argue a salary is poverty level, when it isn't is just ranting for the sake of it. Yet people are saying just that.

    GW pay a low wage compared to the average certainly. It is, however, at or above the minimum set by the successive governments of both left and right wing, and that is for the most part going to keep most people out of what would normally be accepted as poverty. It is, indeed, sort of the whole point of the minimum wage.

    The median rent in Nottingham for a 1 bed place is 8,400 per year, but note that is median not the minimum you have to pay. There are places for 6000 or less per year in the area. If it is a young person in particular it is not uncommon to share a larger place to reduce the rent and council tax burden (My own child is currently looking to share with a couple of friends and looking at quite nice places that will be cheaper than a 1 person flat between 3 of them).


    This wasn't a young, inexperienced person. He was the lead designer on a number of specialist games. And they were paying him a wage so low that he wouldn't have been able to afford a 1 bedroom place of his own in the city he had to work in - even at 6000 a year, which would get you a real dump of a place, that's still comfortably above the normal criteria for rent affordability. Arguing that well actshually that isn't a poverty wage, it's technically slightly above a poverty wage is missing the point. The point is that they were paying a guy they were giving responsibility as a lead designer too little to afford his own 1 bedroom apartment. If that isn't a poverty wage, it's a distinction without a difference.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 00:50:34


    Post by: puree


    The lead designer you talk about wasn't a single person from what I understood, he was in a family of 3 and we don't know the rest of the details.

    I noted the 1 person rent because that is what you referred to in a generic sense.

    Where did he say he couldn't afford a place at 6000 a year?

    Or am I confused between two people who were offered jobs.

    To also note, if I followed correct, that was 20k in 2014 so comparing to todays rent is not really correct. Not sure what the salary today would be, but inflation generally would equate it to ~23k, or about 18k after income tax, NI and council tax.

    If that isn't a poverty wage, it's a distinction without a difference.


    I'd argue it a very important distinction, indeed one the person I thought you were talking about called out himself. The salary was low, but not poverty.

    It matters because there are people who live in genuine poverty, not the sort of low wage you want to call poverty, and when you start to refer to any wage you don't like as poverty you distract from and devalue work being to done to help those who are a damn site worse off.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 01:31:55


    Post by: Daedalus81


    yukishiro1 wrote:
    This wasn't a young, inexperienced person. He was the lead designer on a number of specialist games. And they were paying him a wage so low that he wouldn't have been able to afford a 1 bedroom place of his own in the city he had to work in - even at 6000 a year, which would get you a real dump of a place, that's still comfortably above the normal criteria for rent affordability. Arguing that well actshually that isn't a poverty wage, it's technically slightly above a poverty wage is missing the point. The point is that they were paying a guy they were giving responsibility as a lead designer too little to afford his own 1 bedroom apartment. If that isn't a poverty wage, it's a distinction without a difference.


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the twitter post made it sound like he was in publishing at 19K and then moved to the designer role. Did he ever get credited as the designer? I forget which games he mentioned.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 02:51:19


    Post by: yukishiro1


    IIRC he was the lead designer on Silver Tower and Blood Bowl, and had a host of credits for other stuff too, including a couple AOS and 40k codexes. Somebody posted the full list here, can't remember if it was in this thread or a different one. He wasn't one of the biggest movers and shakers like Jarvis or Thorpe, but he was a major designer for them. Which is why him being paid barely enough to live on is so shocking. He wasn't the coffee guy - paying that guy that much would frankly be bad enough - he was a major player on their design team.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 03:13:16


    Post by: BrianDavion


    Low pay for game designers isn't a GW problem BTW, it's an INDUSTRY problem. most gaming companies have few actual employees, using instead freelancers who write stuff in the evening as, essentially a paid hobby. GW may well be paying the industry standard here. not saying this doesn't mean GW is innocent here (there's one of the few companies with a profit margin to the degree that they CAN pay their people better) but we should DEF be aware how wide this issue is.

    I've had a few folks who work for other companies tell me "you don't do this for the money, you do it because you love the game" which as was noted, is basicly what GW tells their people


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 04:22:47


    Post by: yukishiro1


    There is a guy in another thread on this topic on these very forums who actually works in the game industry who explains that GW pays worse than the competition, despite being more profitable. The industry as a whole isn't known for high pay, but GW is especially well known for underpaying its employees, even by the general standards of the indsutry.

    So no, it actually *is* to a large extent a GW problem.



    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 10:29:33


    Post by: NAVARRO


    BrianDavion wrote:
    Low pay for game designers isn't a GW problem BTW, it's an INDUSTRY problem. most gaming companies have few actual employees, using instead freelancers who write stuff in the evening as, essentially a paid hobby. GW may well be paying the industry standard here. not saying this doesn't mean GW is innocent here (there's one of the few companies with a profit margin to the degree that they CAN pay their people better) but we should DEF be aware how wide this issue is.

    I've had a few folks who work for other companies tell me "you don't do this for the money, you do it because you love the game" which as was noted, is basicly what GW tells their people


    Sorry but you cannot really compare apples and oranges like that and say they are all the same.

    GW is multimillion dollar profit company and the job was an onsite 9 to 5.
    The majority of the other companies will probably not turn half a million ( many dont have any relevant profits) and give you sometimes some freelance work... I can assure you that many rely on people good will to cruise these difficult times...

    Is not that GW can pay people better... The onsite people are stuck in the studio, need to commute ( very expensive) and probably have on their contracts that they cannot do work outside the company work etc etc... So its more they need to pay accordingly...
    Did not the designer in question took a pay cut from store manager to studio designer? Its crazy.

    Yes many of the freelancers just do it for the kicks and yeah GW clearly looks at the non existent competitors and pays as low as they possibly can apparently.

    BTW its not poverty guys you know its a privilege to work for GW, specially with bonuses.
    A family can sure live of that.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 10:41:07


    Post by: BrianDavion


     NAVARRO wrote:
    BrianDavion wrote:
    Low pay for game designers isn't a GW problem BTW, it's an INDUSTRY problem. most gaming companies have few actual employees, using instead freelancers who write stuff in the evening as, essentially a paid hobby. GW may well be paying the industry standard here. not saying this doesn't mean GW is innocent here (there's one of the few companies with a profit margin to the degree that they CAN pay their people better) but we should DEF be aware how wide this issue is.

    I've had a few folks who work for other companies tell me "you don't do this for the money, you do it because you love the game" which as was noted, is basicly what GW tells their people


    Sorry but you cannot really compare apples and oranges like that and say they are all the same.

    GW is multimillion dollar profit company and the job was an onsite 9 to 5.
    The majority of the other companies will probably not turn half a million ( many dont have any relevant profits) and give you sometimes some freelance work... I can assure you that many rely on people good will to cruise these difficult times...

    Is not that GW can pay people better... The onsite people are stuck in the studio, need to commute ( very expensive) and probably have on their contracts that they cannot do work outside the company work etc etc... So its more they need to pay accordingly...
    Did not the designer in question took a pay cut from store manager to studio designer? Its crazy.

    Yes many of the freelancers just do it for the kicks and yeah GW clearly looks at the non existent competitors and pays as low as they possibly can apparently.

    BTW its not poverty guys you know its a privilege to work for GW, specially with bonuses.
    A family can sure live of that.


    apparently what I was trying to say got lost so lemme expand.


    my point is that this is a problem in the entire industry and that a company like GW should be paying better and trying to create a higher standard. which yeah, they're not.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 13:17:22


    Post by: Cronch


    puree wrote:

    The median rent in Nottingham for a 1 bed place is 8,400 per year, but note that is median not the minimum you have to pay. There are places for 6000 or less per year in the area. If it is a young person in particular it is not uncommon to share a larger place to reduce the rent and council tax burden (My own child is currently looking to share with a couple of friends and looking at quite nice places that will be cheaper than a 1 person flat between 3 of them).

    It's not poverty salary cause you can have roommates is a hot take, ngl.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 14:15:44


    Post by: Tygre


    Needing multiple incomes to afford rent/mortgage is common in my part of the world, whether as a couple or with flatmates.

    £6000 a year in rent? I wish my rent was that low. My rent is more than double that and at the low end. And £20,000 is almost double my income. Yes I am one of the working poor.

    I guess its all a matter of perspective.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/01 22:25:47


    Post by: Londinium


    Tygre wrote:
    Needing multiple incomes to afford rent/mortgage is common in my part of the world, whether as a couple or with flatmates.


    Needing multiple incomes to afford a mortgage is pretty standard in the UK, aside from the very cheapest parts of the North.

    Paying £20k p/a for a highly creative job on the other hand is not. You can rock up to a basic civil service admin job and earn more than that and get a defined benefit pension as well.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/02 07:29:00


    Post by: Danny76


     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    What are other companies paying their rules writers? What are other rules writers at GW paid?


    This was my immediate thought when I saw the comment of if they paid more they’d get more experienced rules writers, maybe some of the others do.

    Not that it makes a difference, but a lot of people earn less than £20k and manage all their payments fine etc, because of the area they live in. Nottingham is getting closer to London in cost of living etc so it’s hard to compare to like somewhere in Yorkshire or something, where the same job as a manager etc is getting that too..

    But, I would have thought once you get to head office/main team roles like this, it would have been higher..


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/02 10:07:39


    Post by: deano2099


    I guess part of the question is how it compares to the rest of the business. For someone in a similar role - in charge of a whole line - what are they getting paid.

    Store managers I'm sure are not paid well, nor are the Community team from what we've heard previously.

    Black Library authors are mostly freelance but would certainly be earning more than 20k for a years' work.

    But I'd bet anything that the sculptors at a similar level are getting paid a lot more than 20K. And ignoring any notion of what's fair or whether GW are evil or not, that's telling in terms of what parts of their "hobby" GW value against the other parts.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/02 11:38:35


    Post by: puree


    Nottingham is getting closer to London in cost of living etc so it’s hard to compare to like somewhere in Yorkshire or something, where the same job as a manager etc is getting that too..


    Nottingham is no where near London in cost of living. Like not even close. London is somewhere between 55% and 66% more expensive than Nottingham depending on what stats you look at. It may be getting 'closer' over time but that doesn't say much.

    Nottingham costs roughly the same to live in as Leeds (West Yorkshire) and York (north Yorkshire), although some stats make York somewhat maybe more expensive. Sheffield (South York's) or Hull (East York's) are cheapish places compared to Nottingham.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/03 14:45:29


    Post by: The_Real_Chris


     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    Tyel wrote:

    Realistically though, this is just employee-manager relations the world over. His manager clearly didn't think he was worth going into bat for. That might be a personality clash, it might be some antipathy, it might be you can have £X for your team over all, so if they'd paid him more they'd have needed to get rid of someone else. Odds are we'll never find out - but it happens all over the world. The only solution is to look around - and if you can find a better paying job, take it.
    Or it could have been the quality of the work. Silver Tower, which he "poured his heart and soul into" isn't a well-written ruleset.


    Since they have hired him back at least twice as a freelancer to do games design, I am guessing they were happy with his work?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Audustum wrote:


    All a 'living wage' does is increase inflation and ultimately make itself pointless.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $1 for 1 widget, you have price equilibrium.

    If the economy has 100 widgets and 100 people willing to pay $5 for 2 widgets, you don't have price equilibrium. There's too many people who want widgets and not enough widgets. So the widget supplier is going to raise the price above $5 and see if it still clears out of widgets. If it does, it'll raise the price again and see if it clears out again and so on and on until it reaches a new equilibrium point (i.e. where it can clear 100 widgets at the highest price). If $10/widget sells 90 widgets but $9/widget sells 100 widgets, they'll do $9 so they don't have excess widget inventory.

    When you pay a 'living wage' all you're doing is increasing the amount of people who have $9 to buy a widget. So the widget supplier will raise prices in response and, ta-da, you'll end up back where the same 20 people are buying widgets as before you made a 'living wage'. All the wage increase did was increase the price of widgets (i.e. inflation). This is why you can't just flood more money to people: giving people more cash doesn't increase industrial capacity. If you want more people to get widgets, the way is actually to find a method of producing more widgets not giving more cash for people to bid up the price of widgets currently out there. That takes R&D, discovery of new natural resources and/or capital investment to build new facilities.

    Anyway, good on GW for the bonus. I hope it gives some extra cheer to its employees.


    Its a lovely series of theories you put out, yet it does run into problems where you have the counter examples of countries that have large middle classes. The above is tied very much to a system that is systematically reducing the size of the middle class (read say the US or UK) - and yes the middle class is relative to the rest of the economy. There is an awful lot more than just pure economic man theory that goes into what the actual income distribution in a country is.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/03 17:18:42


    Post by: Hecaton


    I meaan no wonder the quality of GW rules is so low... you get what you pay for.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/05 10:59:12


    Post by: The_Real_Chris


    Hecaton wrote:
    I meaan no wonder the quality of GW rules is so low... you get what you pay for.


    But also the difference in sales for a game with good rules compared to one with a bunch of models people want seems to be negative. Fundamentally i don't think we buy GW stuff for the quality of game.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/05 11:04:52


    Post by: kodos


    there was a reason why 40k sales skyrocket with 8th Edition compared to end of 7th

    because the announced "this time we try" and sales increased

    and you buy much less stuff from GW because you like them, than if "need" them for the game


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/05 11:06:12


    Post by: BrianDavion


     kodos wrote:
    there was a reason why 40k sales skyrocket with 8th Edition compared to end of 7th

    because the announced "this time we try" and sales increased

    and you buy much less stuff from GW because you like them, than if "need" them for the game


    didn't Warmachine/Hoards also make a few bad moves right around the time 8th edition came out?


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/08 03:51:50


    Post by: privateer4hire


    The_Real_Chris wrote:
    Hecaton wrote:
    I meaan no wonder the quality of GW rules is so low... you get what you pay for.


    But also the difference in sales for a game with good rules compared to one with a bunch of models people want seems to be negative. Fundamentally i don't think we buy GW stuff for the quality of game.


    Many buy GW not for the quality of the game but for the improved chances of finding others to play. It’s great for everyone who has an established pool of gamers who might play your off brand stuff. But if you want a larger group of players or even players at all, GW and 40k specifically are still the best bet.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/08 08:03:17


    Post by: AngryAngel80


     NinthMusketeer wrote:
    I came in to see how the black knights would spin this as a bad thing, not disappointed!

    Good on GW for paying it back.


    You either die a white knight, or live long enough to see yourself become the black knight.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/08 09:23:10


    Post by: kodos


    BrianDavion wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    there was a reason why 40k sales skyrocket with 8th Edition compared to end of 7th

    because the announced "this time we try" and sales increased

    and you buy much less stuff from GW because you like them, than if "need" them for the game


    didn't Warmachine/Hoards also make a few bad moves right around the time 8th edition came out?


    yep, as well as Mantic and FFG
    more or less the competition was not ready for GW to get the things together and/or tried to chase after GW players who were all gone as soon as a new Edition dropped while at the same time the original fan base was gone too because the of the direction change


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/08 11:36:27


    Post by: Arbitrator


    BrianDavion wrote:
     kodos wrote:
    there was a reason why 40k sales skyrocket with 8th Edition compared to end of 7th

    because the announced "this time we try" and sales increased

    and you buy much less stuff from GW because you like them, than if "need" them for the game


    didn't Warmachine/Hoards also make a few bad moves right around the time 8th edition came out?

    They did but I doubt it would've made much different in the long term.

     kodos wrote:

    yep, as well as Mantic and FFG
    more or less the competition was not ready for GW to get the things together and/or tried to chase after GW players who were all gone as soon as a new Edition dropped while at the same time the original fan base was gone too because the of the direction change

    What mistakes did Mantic make? I only hear people begrudge their previous model quality, which was always pretty dire until recently.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/08 12:34:01


    Post by: kodos


    quality was not a reason as in the beginning this was intended

    first sets were cheaper models for Warhammer which was comparable in quality by the time (2009) but had less options and was mono pose compared to the multi pose options from GW

    quality problems were with the first PVC models that should replace metal parts (but came in either to hard or too soft) which is now replaced with Resin (which is one of the best out there) as better models for higher price sell more than cheap alternatives for GW

    by the time of 7th/8th 40k, plastic model quality from Mantic was good (hard plastic Enforcers were better than pre-Primaris Marines)

    their mistake was with the Warpath Kickstarter as WP FireFight was explicit made to be an alternative to 40k with input during Alpha Test from mostly GW refugees at the end of 7th

    shortly after release those 40k players left for 8th (which was similar in many points) leaving a rule system behind made for them but Deadzone/Warpath players were not happy with and missing sales in models because the big hype was not there any more without them

    Ronnie said that trying to chase GW instead focusing on their own stuff was their biggest mistake in the past 10 years


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/08 13:12:58


    Post by: Arbitrator


    The vast majority of people I know who played KoW only ever used their GW models with the occasional supplementary model if they couldn't find an equivalent they missed out on Back In The Day.

    I think TOW perfectly illustrates why WarmaHordes was always doomed. Despite Mantic not having any major issues between 2015 and now when it comes to KoW, despite the quality of their sculpts increasing, the vast majority of KoW players still look set to ditch the system and company entirely for the glee of simply having an OFFICIAL GAMES WORKSHOP(tm) LICENSED RULEBOOK!!!! despite very little expectation from a lot of them that it will actually play any better and the whole reason they're playing KoW being that GW took WHFB out back and shot it once already. It's just such a bizarre kind of brand loyalty.

    Other games like Infinity and Malifaux didn't have a major drama over their policies and rules either, but they still lost a lot of their momentum and playerbase the moment GW started looking like they were making a bit of improvement.

    PP's screwups definitely sped up the demise of their game and maybe even lost players to other, non-GW systems as a result (hello Guild Ball) but I still think we'd be here typing about 'the fall of WarmaHordes' even if they'd done everything right, although it might've taken a little longer the end was always going to come quickly for them.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/08 13:15:27


    Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


    kodos wrote: quality problems were with the first PVC models that should replace metal parts (but came in either to hard or too soft) which is now replaced with Resin (which is one of the best out there) as better models for higher price sell more than cheap alternatives for GW


    One their main resin casters (possibly their main resin casters) is a personal friend of mine. I shall pass on your compliment!


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/08 16:02:08


    Post by: Cronch


     Arbitrator wrote:
    The vast majority of people I know who played KoW only ever used their GW models with the occasional supplementary model if they couldn't find an equivalent they missed out on Back In The Day.

    I think TOW perfectly illustrates why WarmaHordes was always doomed. Despite Mantic not having any major issues between 2015 and now when it comes to KoW, despite the quality of their sculpts increasing, the vast majority of KoW players still look set to ditch the system and company entirely for the glee of simply having an OFFICIAL GAMES WORKSHOP(tm) LICENSED RULEBOOK!!!! despite very little expectation from a lot of them that it will actually play any better and the whole reason they're playing KoW being that GW took WHFB out back and shot it once already. It's just such a bizarre kind of brand loyalty.

    Other games like Infinity and Malifaux didn't have a major drama over their policies and rules either, but they still lost a lot of their momentum and playerbase the moment GW started looking like they were making a bit of improvement.

    PP's screwups definitely sped up the demise of their game and maybe even lost players to other, non-GW systems as a result (hello Guild Ball) but I still think we'd be here typing about 'the fall of WarmaHordes' even if they'd done everything right, although it might've taken a little longer the end was always going to come quickly for them.

    PP was never going to be a direct competitor to GW, neither would Infinity or Mfx, because they're too much of a game to easily translate from 40k. If people move to those games, it's usually because they don't want to play GW fare, and GW releasing only mildly terrible ruleset like the new KillTeam is not going to have a significant effect on say, Infinity players, because they're into playing Infinity, not "not playing 40k" if that makes sense. TOW is in a different situation, because people who make up current KoW/Conquest/etc playerbase are largely the same as those that played or wanted to play WHFB. There's very little new blood that wants to get into Rank and File specifically (at least in my anecdotal experience), so once there's again an Official Way to Play what they always wanted to play...
    It's why 2nd ed AoS and even more 8thed 40k had such popularity- they were very minor improvements, but any improvements will be enough to pull back in those people who want to play GW and quit for some specific grievance instead of quitting because they wanted to play other games.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/08 17:44:39


    Post by: Galas


    TBH, one of the biggest parts of why those communities seem quite toxic is because they can't just accept that adults can play whatever they want.

    The moment one can't accept that the game he or she wants to play doesnt has more players because people just doesnt want to play it, and prefer to play more popular games, and starts calling them beated up wives, or whatever, it presents itself as a spoiled and inmature child.

    I prefer Heroes of the Storm. I would never complaint to LoL players how they should play the superior game because LoL did nothing agaisnt Heroes of the Storm just like GW has literally never done anything agaisnt Infinity or Malifaux or Warmahordes. They just offered a more appealing product, whatever that means, to a bigger number of people.

    You are not entitled to having other people playing whatever you want to play. If a company cannot stand in their own right, that sucks but is just life. GW is not some kind of monopoly with connections in the goverment lobbyng agaisnt competition or some other kind of shaddy way of doing business, so thats not something you can blame unto them. And thats why many people blames customers. But as I said, when you are blaming people for playing the wrong miniature game, you look like a child.


    GW employee bonus  @ 2021/08/08 17:53:06


    Post by: ingtaer


    Seems like this thread has come to an of end discussing GW staff bonuses.