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If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/29 23:31:40


Post by: lord marcus







I now say GW has gone too far for me.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/29 23:34:50


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


Terrible.

They pretty much got me into the game.
I'll definitely look for their next project !


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/29 23:37:03


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


Remember when shills said "But it's a parody, it's totally safe, stop overreacting."

About that.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/29 23:38:31


Post by: Darsath


Quite likely, their work WOULD fall into fair use (or fair dealing in the UK), but that's not what the issue is. The issue is the COST of defending their stance in court, and the length of time and damages that Games Workshop would put them through to defend their legal position. Sad but can't say unexpected.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/29 23:43:59


Post by: lord marcus


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Remember when shills said "But it's a parody, it's totally safe, stop overreacting."

About that.


Yes, quite.

I haven't heard anything about WARHAMS but I'm hopeful it's not kiboshed too.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/29 23:44:16


Post by: Gert


I've been trying to be positive about a lot of the things about GW and Warhammer recently but these last couple of weeks have really been hard. TTS has been such a joy to watch and grow alongside.
I'm really enjoying playing Warhammer again after this last year of chaos but honestly now it's just sad to sit down after a game and think "oh I can't really enjoy my hobby anymore".
The team at my local GW are such a nice bunch as well but the company itself is so broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Remember when shills said "But it's a parody, it's totally safe, stop overreacting."

About that.

This was a bit rude TBH. There was no way people could have know everything that was going to happen. Companies threaten parody sites and shows all the time and rarely anything comes of it. Just because people don't automatically hate everything GW does, doesn't make them a shill. Have some respect.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/29 23:49:29


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


 Gert wrote:
I've been trying to be positive about a lot of the things about GW and Warhammer recently but these last couple of weeks have really been hard. TTS has been such a joy to watch and grow alongside.
I'm really enjoying playing Warhammer again after this last year of chaos but honestly now it's just sad to sit down after a game and think "oh I can't really enjoy my hobby anymore".
The team at my local GW are such a nice bunch as well but the company itself is so broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Remember when shills said "But it's a parody, it's totally safe, stop overreacting."

About that.

This was a bit rude TBH. There was no way people could have know everything that was going to happen. Companies threaten parody sites and shows all the time and rarely anything comes of it. Just because people don't automatically hate everything GW does, doesn't make them a shill. Have some respect.


It's GW, they really should've known better


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/29 23:50:11


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


 lord marcus wrote:


Yes, quite.

I haven't heard anything about WARHAMS but I'm hopeful it's not kiboshed too.


Nay. Everything GW related.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/29 23:53:33


Post by: BlackoCatto


Feth GW


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/29 23:55:20


Post by: Gert


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

It's GW, they really should've known better

Yes how could people have known TTS would stop when nobody can see into the future. GW could have gone after TTS any time in the past 8 years especially when it got big enough to be an entry point into the hobby but TTS continued. And again, have some respect instead of immediately posting about how right you were that a group of people just lost a major source of income.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/29 23:57:45


Post by: lord marcus


DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
 lord marcus wrote:


Yes, quite.

I haven't heard anything about WARHAMS but I'm hopeful it's not kiboshed too.


Nay. Everything GW related.



*Insert Darth Vader screaming*


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/29 23:59:03


Post by: Marshal Loss


GW shooting themselves in the foot. Wasn't a fan, but TTS got a lot of folks into 40k & had a huge audience.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 00:07:55


Post by: Mentlegen324


A lot of people seem to be missing that the article on the GW site was just an update of their previous policy and it's all protections that are in place by copyright regardless of they had written that or not.

Here's a link to the policy as of 2014: https://web.archive.org/web/20140702151219/http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Intellectual-Property-Policy

It's pretty much the same stuff as the new version - don't distribute copyrighted art/text/material, don't use their trademarks wrongly, don't sell any fan works and make it clear they're not official etc.

It even says the same thing as the current one does regarding fan animations and games, just worded differently - You don't have the copyright and so can't do whatever you like, but if you want to do those things, then you need a license from GW.

Licensing

If you think you have a winning idea and want to make a video game, an app, some merchandise, a movie or anything else that you will be distributing (either for free or at a cost) using Games Workshop’s IP then you need permission in the form of a license from Games Workshop. If you've got a strong vision of something you want to produce, using our imagery, and have a sound plan to make it a reality, then the people to talk to are our licensing department. They really want to hear from you! You can reach them at licensing@gwplc.com.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 00:10:10


Post by: Daedalus81


Well, right. The only thing that changed is GW got into the streaming game.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 00:21:08


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Gert wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

It's GW, they really should've known better

Yes how could people have known TTS would stop when nobody can see into the future. GW could have gone after TTS any time in the past 8 years especially when it got big enough to be an entry point into the hobby but TTS continued. And again, have some respect instead of immediately posting about how right you were that a group of people just lost a major source of income.


How could people have known? This was the entire point of GW’s latest policy update, to remove any Warhammer video content that didn’t directly earn them money. This isn’t some unforeseen second-tier consequence. This was the message received loud and clear.

I don’t see any disrespect in agreeing with TTS about GW.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 00:23:42


Post by: Gert


Daedalus has it. In Alfa's and Earndil's statements they talk about how GW has been the shadow overhead for 8 years but despite that GW didn't make any moves against TTS. The fact that GW is specifically emphasising fan animations and films now is the difference purely because of Warhammer +.
And as for licensing, parody should fall under fair use but obviously the TTS team doesn't trust GW enough not to go after them despite this.
TTS doesn't skirt around its jokes about GW or 40k, it's very clearly poking fun at both. And again, I very much feel the need point out the 8 years of no interference from GW in regards to "you should have known".
What other fan project has had the longevity of TTS? Astartes was maybe a year old, same with SODAZ work AFAIK. This isn't some brand new thing that catapulted to fame overnight and was picked up on by corporate.
As for the respect part, immediately jumping on and posting about how right you were isn't close to respectful of the situation and calling people shills because they don't agree with you is just as bad.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 00:31:06


Post by: gorgon


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 Gert wrote:
I've been trying to be positive about a lot of the things about GW and Warhammer recently but these last couple of weeks have really been hard. TTS has been such a joy to watch and grow alongside.
I'm really enjoying playing Warhammer again after this last year of chaos but honestly now it's just sad to sit down after a game and think "oh I can't really enjoy my hobby anymore".
The team at my local GW are such a nice bunch as well but the company itself is so broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Remember when shills said "But it's a parody, it's totally safe, stop overreacting."

About that.

This was a bit rude TBH. There was no way people could have know everything that was going to happen. Companies threaten parody sites and shows all the time and rarely anything comes of it. Just because people don't automatically hate everything GW does, doesn't make them a shill. Have some respect.


It's GW, they really should've known better


Thank God we have you to educate us.

You should take that act outside and shake your fist at the sky. You know...really DO something.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 00:33:43


Post by: Mentlegen324


 Gert wrote:
Daedalus has it. In Alfa's and Earndil's statements they talk about how GW has been the shadow overhead for 8 years but despite that GW didn't make any moves against TTS. The fact that GW is specifically emphasising fan animations and films now is the difference purely because of Warhammer +.


Just how is this them "specifically emphasizing" them with that supposed new negative connotation, when the previous policy version also said those very same things weren't allowed and you'd need to get a license with games, apps and movies (so, animations) all coming under that "you need a license" aspect in both versions? The only difference is that they've now got an extra line above the section saying they're "infringements" (which they were before, too - that hasn't changed) with the multiple large paragraphs of the old version being simplified and the information in them spaced out so video games and movies/animations aren't bundled in the same line as before.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 00:41:37


Post by: Albino Squirrel


I'm not sure why everyone is outraged at GW over this. It sounds like they didn't actually do anything. They didn't say anything to these guys or threaten them with any kind of legal action, did they? I guess they're worried that with GW moving into animation themselves they might come after them, but you're getting mad over something that might or might not happen?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 00:48:34


Post by: Sarouan


Important information from the video, though : GW has actually done nothing to the channel nor contacted the creator, and the creator hasn't contacted GW either.

He decided to do that on his own. He simply read the updated rules on GW's website and gave up. That's it.

I watched the full video and I don't really understand why it's so long just for that...oh, right. It's a youtube video.

Predictable how people are immediately raging about GW while GW...did nothing to him specifically. That guy is solely the only one responsible of his decision, here.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 00:49:35


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Just how is this them "specifically emphasizing" them with that supposed new negative connotation, when the previous policy version also said those very same things weren't allowed and you'd need to get a license with games, apps and movies (so, animations) all coming under that "you need a license" aspect in both versions? The only difference is that they've now got an extra line above the section saying they're "infringements" (which they were before, too - that hasn't changed) with the multiple large paragraphs of the old version being simplified and the information in them spaced out so video games and movies/animations aren't bundled in the same line as before.

The expanded definition is what matters. What is a movie? To me a movie is something I see at a cinema or watch from a DVD/streaming service, something like the Ultramarines Movie. A 20 minute animation on YouTube that makes silly jokes about GW and 40k isn't a movie, it's a video. I consider movies to have extremely high budgets ranging in the hundreds of thousands. I very much doubt TTS costs hundreds of thousands to make.
There is also a distinct change in the tone and language of the IP rules. The old ones were more suggestive and light hearted with lines like "They'd love to here from you!" and "You need permission". Compared to "We have a zero tolerance policy" and "Our products must not be imitated". It's not the same.

For the peeps saying "GW didn't do anything", this is yes and no. GW didn't do anything specifically to the TTS crew in terms of C&D's or sternly worded emails, instead the IP rules were changed from fairly calm wording to very lawyer hardline wording that makes it much more difficult to work with. Historically GW hasn't gone after fan-art either, yet many artists have cancelled commissions for any Warhammer related content in case GW does decide to go after fan-art. TTS should be protected under parody and satire fair use rules but until the waters are tested over the IP updates, nobody is going for a swim.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 00:50:21


Post by: insaniak


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

It's GW, they really should've known better

What should they have known?

Going by the video, they haven't been shut down by GW, they've chosen to shut themselves down rather than risk potential legal action.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 00:58:04


Post by: nels1031


My initial thought : Bad move, Tabletop Simulator was a huge boon during pandemic lockdowns. Could they even really go after Tabletop Simulator?

My second thought like 10 seconds into the video : Oh, its not Tabletop Simulator. I don’t give a feth.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 00:59:23


Post by: H.B.M.C.


But... but GW has changed guys! They have a Facebook page now. And an Instagram, which means they're just like us. And they make Primaris Lieutenant jokes like we do. They're our friends... right?

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
It's GW, they really should've known better
It's GW. We know full well that they don't.



If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 01:01:24


Post by: Mentlegen324


 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Just how is this them "specifically emphasizing" them with that supposed new negative connotation, when the previous policy version also said those very same things weren't allowed and you'd need to get a license with games, apps and movies (so, animations) all coming under that "you need a license" aspect in both versions? The only difference is that they've now got an extra line above the section saying they're "infringements" (which they were before, too - that hasn't changed) with the multiple large paragraphs of the old version being simplified and the information in them spaced out so video games and movies/animations aren't bundled in the same line as before.

The expanded definition is what matters. What is a movie? To me a movie is something I see at a cinema or watch from a DVD/streaming service, something like the Ultramarines Movie. A 20 minute animation on YouTube that makes silly jokes about GW and 40k isn't a movie, it's a video. I consider movies to have extremely high budgets ranging in the hundreds of thousands. I very much doubt TTS costs hundreds of thousands to make.
There is also a distinct change in the tone and language of the IP rules. The old ones were more suggestive and light hearted with lines like "They'd love to here from you!" and "You need permission". Compared to "We have a zero tolerance policy" and "Our products must not be imitated". It's not the same.


The semantics of whether an animation is a movie or not is besides the point. It still says games, apps, movies and anything else along those lines needs a license and as you do not have the copyright you can't make them without that license. That's the case in both versions, and not new.

The new article is simply a summarized version of the previous guidelines. The somewhat more lighthearted wording has been removed from all of it because the article has been shortened and re-organized to make it simpler to understand and so each point doesn't take up a whole paragraph, both for the guidelines part and the infringment part. It still has some presence at the top half of the article before all that starts. They have not singled out any specific part any more than any other - it's all the same information, just said in fewer words.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 01:01:25


Post by: Sarouan


 nels1031 wrote:
My initial thought : Bad move, Tabletop Simulator was a huge boon during pandemic lockdowns. Could they even really go after Tabletop Simulator?

My second thought like 10 seconds into the video : Oh, its not Tabletop Simulator. I don’t give a feth.


If you did, your third thought would have been : "GW didn't go after TTS at all, the creator decided himself alone to put his channel on hiatus"


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 01:07:42


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Sarouan wrote:
Predictable how people are immediately raging about GW while GW...did nothing to him specifically. That guy is solely the only one responsible of his decision, here.
The way you leap on anyone who might even consider attacking (or even just mildly criticising) GW is the only predictable thing here.

More disturbing is your 'GW did nothing - this was all his decision' nonsense. Do you not understand the basics concepts of context? Cause and effect?

He didn't just do this out of the blue. He did this to hopefully avoid getting his channel nukes.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 01:11:59


Post by: Gert


Mentlegen324 wrote:
The semantics of whether an animation is a move or not is besides the point. It still says games, apps, movies and anything else along those lines needs a license and as you do not have the copyright you can't make them without that license.

It's a summarized version of the previous guidelines. The somewhat more lighthearted wording has been removed from all of it because the article has been shortened and re-organized to make it simpler to understand and so each point doesn't take up a whole paragraph, both for the guidelines part and the infringment part. It still has some presence at the top half of the article before all that starts.

Semantics aren't besides the point because if the IP rules were vague then it could easily be argued "What makes a movie?". There's a reason microwave meals have warnings on them saying "heated food will be hot, handle with care" because semantics and specificity matter in terms of law. If you do not set out as many guidelines as possible then someone will find a way around those guidelines. Take Scotlands Covid Restrictions on restaurants/bars/pubs for example, groups used to only have a 2 hour slot for a booking. However, a booking system was not explicitly required and nothing was said about simply booking another slot immediately after your first ended, so technically a restaurant/bar/pub could have a group in from opening time til close. Technicalities matter and that's the difference between the old and updated statements on GW IP rules.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 01:14:12


Post by: Mentlegen324


 Gert wrote:
Mentlegen324 800020 11186347 wrote:
The semantics of whether an animation is a move or not is besides the point. It still says games, apps, movies and anything else along those lines needs a license and as you do not have the copyright you can't make them without that license.

It's a summarized version of the previous guidelines. The somewhat more lighthearted wording has been removed from all of it because the article has been shortened and re-organized to make it simpler to understand and so each point doesn't take up a whole paragraph, both for the guidelines part and the infringment part. It still has some presence at the top half of the article before all that starts.

Semantics aren't besides the point because if the IP rules were vague then it could easily be argued "What makes a movie?". There's a reason microwave meals have warnings on them saying "heated food will be hot, handle with care" because semantics and specificity matter in terms of law. If you do not set out as many guidelines as possible then someone will find a way around those guidelines. Take Scotlands Covid Restrictions on restaurants/bars/pubs for example, groups used to only have a 2 hour slot for a booking. However, a booking system was not explicitly required and nothing was said about simply booking another slot immediately after your first ended, so technically a restaurant/bar/pub could have a group in from opening time til close. Technicalities matter and that's the difference between the old and updated statements on GW IP rules.


Semantics are besides the point in this situation, unless you're going to try and say that in the context of "a movie or anything else that you will be distributing (either for free or at a cost)" that an animation wouldn't either count as a "movie" or "anything else that you will be distributing". It says anything along those lines that uses their IP, you don't have permission for and will need a license, that is the point.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 01:18:00


Post by: Sarouan


 H.B.M.C. wrote:

More disturbing is your 'GW did nothing - this was all his decision' nonsense. Do you not understand the basics concepts of context? Cause and effect?

He didn't just do this out of the blue. He did this to hopefully avoid getting his channel nukes.

You claim to have watched the whole video. I claim that you failed to even slightly comprehend even a single second of it.


You're biased as always. All he talked about are why he did that, and indeed his fears and personnal justifications for not even trying to contact GW and have a license / deal with them.

The cause / effect here is he read the updated rules on GW website and decided to put his channel on hiatus. End of the story.

So when you have the OP write this :

 lord marcus wrote:

I now say GW has gone too far for me.


 lord marcus wrote:

I haven't heard anything about WARHAMS but I'm hopeful it's not kiboshed too.


...it's clear that to him, GW was the one directly responsible of shutting down the TTS channel. But from the video, that's not what happened.

That's the true dishonesty. But of course, you, HBMC, will never aknowledge that.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 01:56:13


Post by: Gert


Sarouan wrote:

You're biased as always. All he talked about are why he did that, and indeed his fears and personnal justifications for not even trying to contact GW and have a license / deal with them.

OK, I'm not biased, in fact I've been batting pretty hard for GW recently.
This is the fault of GW's Legal Team which more concerned with protecting profits than it is with protecting the community (HOWEVER, this is their job and they have been specifically hired to protect the company. Its the form of "protection" that matters here). The Legal Team answers to the board and CEO. The cause of this event is the updated IP rules put out by GW, created by the Legal Team and signed off by a senior member of staff. The effect is mass uncertainty regarding what is and is not accepted under the new rules. Does free use from parody and satire trump the "Zero Tolerance" policy? Will the Legal Team simply tie up any proceedings until the defendant can no longer afford to defend themselves if they can even do so in the first place? Alfa specifically talks about the latter because of his family and the need to protect them. Alfa also talks about how both GW and YouTube are known for their trigger-happy copyright cannons, especially YouTube.

...it's clear that to him, GW was the one directly responsible of shutting down the TTS channel. But from the video, that's not what happened.

I mean Alfa literally says the new IP update from GW is what has caused this so....... yeah, cause and effect.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 02:01:20


Post by: BrianDavion


at the same time, by his own admission GW did NOT send him a C&D letter. He could have continued doing things until/unless he got a C&D letter, and it might never have come because the Lawyers might have not gone after a parody. so blaming this ENTIRELY on GW is a bit much. not saying GW hasn't created a chilling effect but let's not act like GW went after the guy.

edit: or we could abandon any attempt at nuance in an attempt to be enraged.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 02:09:54


Post by: Gert


You say enraged, I say saddened and disappointed. I'm not looking to burn down GW HQ, I'm probably just going to stop buying from them and avoid Warhammer + now.
Also, note where I specifically said the uncertainty of the situation caused this. GW caused the greater uncertainty, not anyone else. Its not something limited to just the TTS crew.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 02:10:24


Post by: Togusa


BrianDavion wrote:
at the same time, by his own admission GW did NOT send him a C&D letter. He could have continued doing things until/unless he got a C&D letter, and it might never have come because the Lawyers might have not gone after a parody. so blaming this ENTIRELY on GW is a bit much. not saying GW hasn't created a chilling effect but let's not act like GW went after the guy.

edit: or we could abandon any attempt at nuance in an attempt to be enraged.


How do we really know? TTS is wildly popular. There is not a snowballs chance in hell that they don't know about it. I'm sure it's come up in many different meets across the company, even casually probably. So there is no way to know that they didn't hope this would also be an outcome of their recent decisions.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 02:13:22


Post by: Gert


I mean the rumour was that some of the "higher ups" whatever that means, liked TTS and that's why it was left alone. Rumours aren't worth putting stock into and honestly I would believe that it was more a case of "it really isn't worth it to go after TTS". Of course GW isn't going to put out a statement or contact Alfa saying TTS is exempt because its one less thing calling GW and 40k silly when GW is trying to push the serious factor.

Just to point out that Alfa says that the recent update was the last straw and that the team has been stressed and worried about the ban-hammer for a very long time now.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 02:16:58


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gert wrote:
I mean Alfa literally says the new IP update from GW is what has caused this so....... yeah, cause and effect.
Like I said: He didn't comprehend a second of that video.

It was clearly stated why it was happening. The idea that someone can interpret that video and divorce GW's own actions from the resulting actions of TTS's creators speaks to a level of cognitive dissonance that I can't comprehend one second of.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 02:32:51


Post by: RaptorusRex


BrianDavion wrote:
at the same time, by his own admission GW did NOT send him a C&D letter. He could have continued doing things until/unless he got a C&D letter, and it might never have come because the Lawyers might have not gone after a parody. so blaming this ENTIRELY on GW is a bit much. not saying GW hasn't created a chilling effect but let's not act like GW went after the guy.

edit: or we could abandon any attempt at nuance in an attempt to be enraged.


And people call me a white knight.



If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 02:35:39


Post by: Dendarien


 nels1031 wrote:
My initial thought : Bad move, Tabletop Simulator was a huge boon during pandemic lockdowns. Could they even really go after Tabletop Simulator?

My second thought like 10 seconds into the video : Oh, its not Tabletop Simulator. I don’t give a feth.


I thought this was about tabletop simulator too. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets threatened at some point.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 02:50:55


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


BrianDavion wrote:
at the same time, by his own admission GW did NOT send him a C&D letter. He could have continued doing things until/unless he got a C&D letter, and it might never have come because the Lawyers might have not gone after a parody. so blaming this ENTIRELY on GW is a bit much. not saying GW hasn't created a chilling effect but let's not act like GW went after the guy.

edit: or we could abandon any attempt at nuance in an attempt to be enraged.


That is not how a YouTube takedown works, though. He could lose a lot of money from one of those.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:04:28


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


Spoiler:
Sarouan wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:

More disturbing is your 'GW did nothing - this was all his decision' nonsense. Do you not understand the basics concepts of context? Cause and effect?

He didn't just do this out of the blue. He did this to hopefully avoid getting his channel nukes.

You claim to have watched the whole video. I claim that you failed to even slightly comprehend even a single second of it.


You're biased as always. All he talked about are why he did that, and indeed his fears and personnal justifications for not even trying to contact GW and have a license / deal with them.

The cause / effect here is he read the updated rules on GW website and decided to put his channel on hiatus. End of the story.

So when you have the OP write this :

 lord marcus wrote:

I now say GW has gone too far for me.


 lord marcus wrote:

I haven't heard anything about WARHAMS but I'm hopeful it's not kiboshed too.


...it's clear that to him, GW was the one directly responsible of shutting down the TTS channel. But from the video, that's not what happened.

That's the true dishonesty. But of course, you, HBMC, will never aknowledge that.


Now that's it. I try to stay as far as possible from shouting matches on internet for the sake of my own health and for the sake of being as civil as possible in public. But I can't stay silent before such odious sophistry.

Of course there is a direct cause and effect between GW's policy change and the decision from the TTS team to shelve what is obviously a passion project and an important source of revenue.
To make light of the work and effort of people this way is terribly low. And for what ? Protecting the brand of a company ? It's shameful. "That guy is solely the only one responsible of his decision, here." Do you really believe that ? Really ? No links at all ? Who could fear litigations coming from an organization with a terrible amount of resource to spend "protecting their IP".

We all know what is at stakes here: a big organization pushing it's power around purposefully. Contrarily to what many may say, this isn't about the law. GW, and every company using such methods, are using the law as a cudgel against anyone that might be (or not) harming their bottom line. While they underpay and alienate from their work the designers, artists and all of those who actually create this "IP".

These games of money are disgusting. And any company with profit as it's priority should never be given the befit of the doubt. For the sake of it's own employees and for its clients. Because it's sole purpose is to be as profitable as possible. The health of it's employee is secondary, the quality of its products is secondary, the law is secondary and its fans are secondary.

Sorry for the rant. Or if I may sound offensive. But those things are important to keep in mind and say.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:09:19


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I think Alpha makes a good point that it is not so much about the literal text of GW's policy update but how it is a part of a broader culture shift back towards the customer-unfriendly GW of the past. Really struck a chord with me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
These games of money are disgusting. And any company with profit as it's priority should never be given the befit of the doubt. For the sake of it's own employees and for its clients. Because it's sole purpose is to be as profitable as possible. The health of it's employee is secondary, the quality of its products is secondary, the law is secondary and its fans are secondary.
Technically speaking, a company with profit as it's priority in the long term would care more about those than anything else. Let's not forget that corporations are made of people and people are very capable of making very bad decisions, especially when it comes to long-term harm for short-term gain. Heck the only reason GW gets away with making so many decisions like that is their market dominance and we saw at the tail end of the Kirby days that yes, the long term cost very much exists and very much adds up.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:15:49


Post by: Apple fox


These are the risks when you work on IP you don’t own.
And the risk goes way up if you make money from the project.
Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.
GW updating there page really doesn’t change laws, and people need to start learning them as they are becoming more important to know now in modern times.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:20:05


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Sarouan wrote:
That's the true dishonesty. But of course, you, HBMC, will never aknowledge that.
The only one being dishonest here is you, and really anyone who is trying to push the "But they didn't make him do it!" line of thinking.

Again, the rest of us seem to understand the cause an effect on this, and that the actions taken by the makers of TTS are preemptive and precautionary. You seem to take that as an excuse to go "Well, technically GW had nothing to do with that, so it's all on TTS, not GW, who remain innocent and blameless and paragons of ultimate virtue and our bestest bestest friends in the whole wide world!.".

That's the true dishonesty here. But of course, you, Sarouan, are incapable of understanding that.



If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:22:47


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
That's the true dishonesty. But of course, you, HBMC, will never aknowledge that.
The only one being dishonest here is you, and really anyone who is trying to push the "But they didn't make him do it!" line of thinking.

Again, the rest of us seem to understand the cause an effect on this, and that the actions taken by the makers of TTS are preemptive and precautionary. You seem to take that as an excuse to go "Well, technically GW had nothing to do with that, so it's all on TTS, not GW, who remain innocent and blameless and paragons of ultimate virtue and our bestest bestest friends in the whole wide world!.".

That's the true dishonesty here. But of course, you, Sarouan, are incapable of understanding that.

I think there is some hyperbole happening in this back and forth but I'm with you on the basic sentiment.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:23:24


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Hyperbole is half the fun. And I have to keep myself entertained somehow, lest I go completely off the rails.



If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:24:19


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Apple fox wrote:
Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.
Is it? There are plenty of 'XYZ Abridged' series on youtube that seem to do fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hyperbole is half the fun. And I have to keep myself entertained somehow, lest I go completely off the rails.
I wish I could disagree with that


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:26:06


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think Alpha makes a good point that it is not so much about the literal text of GW's policy update but how it is a part of a broader culture shift back towards the customer-unfriendly GW of the past. Really struck a chord with me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
These games of money are disgusting. And any company with profit as it's priority should never be given the befit of the doubt. For the sake of it's own employees and for its clients. Because it's sole purpose is to be as profitable as possible. The health of it's employee is secondary, the quality of its products is secondary, the law is secondary and its fans are secondary.
Technically speaking, a company with profit as it's priority in the long term would care more about those than anything else. Let's not forget that corporations are made of people and people are very capable of making very bad decisions, especially when it comes to long-term harm for short-term gain. Heck the only reason GW gets away with making so many decisions like that is their market dominance and we saw at the tail end of the Kirby days that yes, the long term cost very much exists and very much adds up.


I am sorry but the likes of Adam Smith were wrong. We do not owe the quality of our products to the benevolence of their makers nor to their own interest. But to the quality of their labour and the honesty of their employer. Especially in situations of near monopoly. They have brought the sole ownership of a product from their makers through employment and benefit from it. To see the long term effect of it we need but to look at massive media conglomerates like Disney or Warner.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:30:49


Post by: Grot 6


SMH...

"Cutting off your nose to spite your face" Holds true.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:32:31


Post by: NinthMusketeer


*shrug* I think corporate leadership believes these measures will help them, and I think the consequences will build up again until they learn the same lesson again. It's a story humans keep repeating.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:38:42


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
*shrug* I think corporate leadership believes these measures will help them, and I think the consequences will build up again until they learn the same lesson again. It's a story humans keep repeating.


Sadly these types seem to very rarely face the consequences of their own actions.

If only karma was a thing.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:38:57


Post by: catbarf


Apple fox wrote:Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.

NinthMusketeer wrote:Is it? There are plenty of 'XYZ Abridged' series on youtube that seem to do fine.


Parody is one of the basic examples of fair use. It's explicitly carved out as a legal use of copyrighted material under both US and UK law.

But that doesn't mean a company can't sue you- even if the lawsuit is baseless and you will eventually win. Because if you're a normal person, it will bankrupt you. And so a creator of what is almost certainly legally-protected content is going on indefinite hiatus in the hopes of avoiding a groundless lawsuit from a company that now seems keen to file lawsuits against creators of fan works.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:42:04


Post by: NinthMusketeer


DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
If only karma was a thing.
It is, on average. Doesn't make humans any better at seeing it though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:
Apple fox wrote:Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.

NinthMusketeer wrote:Is it? There are plenty of 'XYZ Abridged' series on youtube that seem to do fine.


Parody is one of the basic examples of fair use. It's explicitly carved out as a legal use of copyrighted material under both US and UK law.

But that doesn't mean a company can't sue you- even if the lawsuit is baseless and you will eventually win. Because if you're a normal person, it will bankrupt you. And so a creator of what is almost certainly legally-protected content is going on indefinite hiatus in the hopes of avoiding a groundless lawsuit from a company that now seems keen to file lawsuits against creators of fan works.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
For me that classifies as intimidation, not restriction. The law doesn't restrict the content; it fails to restrict an abuse of power.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 03:44:19


Post by: yukishiro1


It's true they didn't get a C&D yet. It's also true that the reason GW updated its policies is to do precisely what happened here, to scare people into giving up before GW even bothers to do anything. To suggest their decision had nothing to do with GW updating its terms and is 100% just down to them is downright absurd, and anyone seriously making that argument is effectively forfeiting any credibility they have in the discussion.

This is a great demonstration of the power that big companies have when it comes to copyright. There's no need to even go to court, they just throw their weight around and people fall into line because GW can afford to fight if they have to, and normal people can't. Not many people want to be martyrs.

P.S. This has nothing to do with tabletop simulator for all the people who are confused, thread title is pretty confusing since the acronym is much more commonly used in the hobby for the simulator.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 04:14:18


Post by: H.B.M.C.


yukishiro1 wrote:
P.S. This has nothing to do with tabletop simulator for all the people who are confused, thread title is pretty confusing since the acronym is much more commonly used in the hobby for the simulator.
No need to worry about that. Give it a few more weeks and the thread can pull double duty.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 04:21:34


Post by: Apple fox


 catbarf wrote:
Apple fox wrote:Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.

NinthMusketeer wrote:Is it? There are plenty of 'XYZ Abridged' series on youtube that seem to do fine.


Parody is one of the basic examples of fair use. It's explicitly carved out as a legal use of copyrighted material under both US and UK law.

But that doesn't mean a company can't sue you- even if the lawsuit is baseless and you will eventually win. Because if you're a normal person, it will bankrupt you. And so a creator of what is almost certainly legally-protected content is going on indefinite hiatus in the hopes of avoiding a groundless lawsuit from a company that now seems keen to file lawsuits against creators of fan works.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.


A lot of it is just determining if it is parody or infringement. And is specific. It’s why so many movies that are parody are also licensed or with some form of permission, saves a lot of headaches. And then you step over the line a little, it’s not a big deal.

In this case, it’s great that the laws tend to be more specific as well


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 06:24:54


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Apple fox wrote:
These are the risks when you work on IP you don’t own.
And the risk goes way up if you make money from the project.
Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.
GW updating there page really doesn’t change laws, and people need to start learning them as they are becoming more important to know now in modern times.


What does knowing the law have to do with it?

It doesn’t matter if a creator knows the law and abides by it 100% if some company with lawyers on retainer decides to make an issue out of it. They could financially destroy the average person before the legality even comes into play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
Parody from a broad sense around the world is quite restricted.
Is it? There are plenty of 'XYZ Abridged' series on youtube that seem to do fine.


DBZ Abridged kept having problems with dmca takedowns and demonetization that they burned out, put up a few similar rant videos, and more or less gave up. They were part of some larger action a couple years ago by parody creators to draw attention to YouTube’s behavior. Parodies and even movie reviews keep getting pulled or demonetized for the thinnest reasons.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 06:41:02


Post by: Ahtman


Pretending the law isn't important seems pretty disingenuous. SLAPP lawsuits are an problem, and not just for IP issues, but we can't also just make up suits that haven't happened or pretend laws that do exist are meaningless to a discussion on a possible legal issue.


Admittedly I also thought TTS was Table Top Simulator until reading more so what do I know.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 06:48:23


Post by: Flipsiders


This is pretty sucky. I hope whatever series the TTS guys work on next is as good as their first.

The best move GW could make here publicity-wise is to publicly give TTS explicit permission to continue, but that's obviously never going to happen for a variety of reasons.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 06:53:27


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Ahtman wrote:
Pretending the law isn't important seems pretty disingenuous. SLAPP lawsuits are an problem, and not just for IP issues, but we can't also just make up suits that haven't happened or pretend laws that do exist are meaningless to a discussion on a possible legal issue.


Admittedly I also thought TTS was Table Top Simulator until reading more so what do I know.


There’s a difference between saying it isn’t important and saying it isn’t relevant to what TTS was worried about. They have been following GW for 8 years or more, right? So, they have reason to believe GW could and would make things unpleasant for them one way or another.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 07:04:59


Post by: Not Online!!!


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
Pretending the law isn't important seems pretty disingenuous. SLAPP lawsuits are an problem, and not just for IP issues, but we can't also just make up suits that haven't happened or pretend laws that do exist are meaningless to a discussion on a possible legal issue.


Admittedly I also thought TTS was Table Top Simulator until reading more so what do I know.


There’s a difference between saying it isn’t important and saying it isn’t relevant to what TTS was worried about. They have been following GW for 8 years or more, right? So, they have reason to believe GW could and would make things unpleasant for them one way or another.


this applies doubly so because of youtube.
It is entirely irrelevant, since the large companies can still severly damage your channel with C&D despite not being actually legaly correct, thanks to Youtubes copy right claim system.
Further youtube has no interest in stepping in less they lose their status.

So basically despite being clearly parody material, it doesn't matter if GW wants to bully you off the plattform and damage your livelyhood they have all the tools necessary.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 07:23:49


Post by: Sim-Life


Man, I hate being right.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 07:25:31


Post by: Chikout


Has GW ever gone as far as filing suit against anyone since the chapterhouse thing?
Apart from being sued what's the worse case scenario for a creator? Is there any precident for a GW related YouTube channel being shut down against the creator's will?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 07:41:45


Post by: Lord Kragan





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sarouan wrote:
 nels1031 wrote:
My initial thought : Bad move, Tabletop Simulator was a huge boon during pandemic lockdowns. Could they even really go after Tabletop Simulator?

My second thought like 10 seconds into the video : Oh, its not Tabletop Simulator. I don’t give a feth.


If you did, your third thought would have been : "GW didn't go after TTS at all, the creator decided himself alone to put his channel on hiatus"


Ah yes "i shut down to avoid lawsuits". There is totes no outside influence there.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 07:57:13


Post by: Gert


Chikout wrote:
Has GW ever gone as far as filing suit against anyone since the chapterhouse thing?
Apart from being sued what's the worse case scenario for a creator? Is there any precident for a GW related YouTube channel being shut down against the creator's will?

YouTube CR system is a hair trigger that anyone can use on behalf of anyone else and YT is notably bad at actually resolving false claims.
Direct action isn't needed on behalf of GW because the idea behind these updated IP rules is to prevent content being created that would challenge Warhammer +. It's been deemed too risky for the TTS group to be the ones to test the waters on these new rules and honestly that's what GW is likely going for.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:04:55


Post by: Apple fox


 Gert wrote:
Chikout wrote:
Has GW ever gone as far as filing suit against anyone since the chapterhouse thing?
Apart from being sued what's the worse case scenario for a creator? Is there any precident for a GW related YouTube channel being shut down against the creator's will?

YouTube CR system is a hair trigger that anyone can use on behalf of anyone else and YT is notably bad at actually resolving false claims.
Direct action isn't needed on behalf of GW because the idea behind these updated IP rules is to prevent content being created that would challenge Warhammer +. It's been deemed too risky for the TTS group to be the ones to test the waters on these new rules and honestly that's what GW is likely going for.


It doesn’t help that people can sit hidden behind the internet making it almost impossible to contact them without using YouTube’s system to bring them out.
With YouTube’s size it’s probably impossible to police it without the automatic systems.
Sometimes it is smarter to not push that risk for what may be little gain but a hollow victory.

Since it seems they are doing it without contact from GW, it may even just be a extra motivating factor.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:06:05


Post by: Togusa


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Gert wrote:
I mean Alfa literally says the new IP update from GW is what has caused this so....... yeah, cause and effect.
Like I said: He didn't comprehend a second of that video.

It was clearly stated why it was happening. The idea that someone can interpret that video and divorce GW's own actions from the resulting actions of TTS's creators speaks to a level of cognitive dissonance that I can't comprehend one second of.



I didn't watch the video.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:11:04


Post by: Fergie0044


UFFFFF this sucks.
No clever comment or insight needed, this just plain sucks.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:20:47


Post by: Balerion


Oh man! When I saw the thread name I thought it was about Tabletop Simulator...

I think parody should be untouchable. I'll wait and see how this plays out. For now I subbed to his patreon and I'm having second thoughts about subscribing to WH+ in light of these news.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:25:13


Post by: Sarouan


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
That's the true dishonesty. But of course, you, HBMC, will never aknowledge that.
The only one being dishonest here is you, and really anyone who is trying to push the "But they didn't make him do it!" line of thinking.

Again, the rest of us seem to understand the cause an effect on this, and that the actions taken by the makers of TTS are preemptive and precautionary. You seem to take that as an excuse to go "Well, technically GW had nothing to do with that, so it's all on TTS, not GW, who remain innocent and blameless and paragons of ultimate virtue and our bestest bestest friends in the whole wide world!.".

That's the true dishonesty here. But of course, you, Sarouan, are incapable of understanding that.



I didn't say GW remain innocent and blameless. Besides, I'll just ignore your baseless attacks about my capacity of understanding what was in the video, even though I took the time to listen it all.

What I hate is that people take this video and immediately say "GW shuts down TTS !", while that's not what happened.

It's a fact TTS is put on hiatus from the guy's own decision.

It's a fact TTS didn't receive a cease and desist letter from GW. Hell, even so little as being contacted.

It's the fact the video itself is all about explaining his fears and personnal justifications why he came to this.


Yet the direct cause of the channel being put on hiatus isn't GW forcing him to do it...he did it himself from his own decision. You can't even say he did it because he had the confirmation GW doesn't allow his work to be monetized because it's clear he didn't try to contact them as well for clarifications / requests if he can continue.

You're going way too passionnate about this and clearly are assuming things from me based on your own perception on who I am. Not like I can remove your own delusions from your mind.

Feel free to think whatever you want about me, I don't care. It won't change the facts here, and no matter how you try to spin them, blaming GW about TTS channel being put on hiatus is taking quite the easy shortcut : the creator is the only one making the decision, here.

Besides, he tells what he wants in his video. Maybe he took the opportunity of the new updated guidelines on GW's website to decide it's a good time to put his channel on hiatus because it actually helps him right now, but takes that as a good excuse. We won't know that.

Only thing that we know is that he puts it himself on hiatus because he claims it's too risky for him.


It's a bit like someone listening to a documentary saying how much the insecurity rises in the streets to decide he won't go outside and claiming it's because he's afraid of the possibility being attacked by deliquents.

Hard to blame the delinquents themselves on that case as well.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:28:14


Post by: Overread


All I can say is that its important to realise that he did this without GW actually taking any action save to update their legal disclaimer on their website. I understand the desire to take pre-emptive action to protect ones self, but at the same time without either side contacting the other we've no idea what the final outcome would be.

GW might have taken action; they might have taken action only at some parts or they might have taken no action. In the end its a situation basically in limbo.


Whether you agree iwth the creators choice in taking the course they have is basically academic as there are arguments on both sides. In the end they've made this choice themselves and as big as they are, GW might not feel any need or pressure to actually reach out to them even if they have no plans or legal basis to act.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:33:45


Post by: lord_blackfang


Sarouan wrote:
It's a bit like someone listening to a documentary saying how much the insecurity rises in the streets to decide he won't go outside and claiming it's because he's afraid of the possibility being attacked by deliquents.

Hard to blame the delinquents themselves on that case as well.


It's more like someone reading an official statement by the Popo that they're enacting a zero tolerance policy for hobos sleeping on park benches, so now he's afraid of taking a nap on one during his work break.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:33:59


Post by: Pacific


And so it begins..

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think Alpha makes a good point that it is not so much about the literal text of GW's policy update but how it is a part of a broader culture shift back towards the customer-unfriendly GW of the past. Really struck a chord with me.


This is the point for me too.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:34:32


Post by: Sarouan


 Overread wrote:
All I can say is that its important to realise that he did this without GW actually taking any action save to update their legal disclaimer on their website. I understand the desire to take pre-emptive action to protect ones self, but at the same time without either side contacting the other we've no idea what the final outcome would be.

GW might have taken action; they might have taken action only at some parts or they might have taken no action. In the end its a situation basically in limbo.


Whether you agree iwth the creators choice in taking the course they have is basically academic as there are arguments on both sides. In the end they've made this choice themselves and as big as they are, GW might not feel any need or pressure to actually reach out to them even if they have no plans or legal basis to act.


Exactly this. Can't exalt this post more.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:35:56


Post by: Not Online!!!


Except we already had animatiors ,parody or non parody attacked by c&d by gw.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:37:43


Post by: Sarouan


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
It's a bit like someone listening to a documentary saying how much the insecurity rises in the streets to decide he won't go outside and claiming it's because he's afraid of the possibility being attacked by deliquents.

Hard to blame the delinquents themselves on that case as well.


It's more like someone reading an official statement by the Popo that they're enacting a zero tolerance policy for hobos sleeping on park benches, so now he's afraid of taking a nap on one during his work break.


Yep, good analogy as well. Still it's not the police to blame here. He's still the one assuming things from a text, not even trying to confirm if his fears are correct and deciding himself he won't take the risk...even though he's not sure it's real or not.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:39:48


Post by: Albertorius


 Overread wrote:
All I can say is that its important to realise that he did this without GW actually taking any action save to update their legal disclaimer on their website. I understand the desire to take pre-emptive action to protect ones self, but at the same time without either side contacting the other we've no idea what the final outcome would be.

GW might have taken action; they might have taken action only at some parts or they might have taken no action. In the end its a situation basically in limbo.

I believe that is the whole point: Police yourself, or else. And for that, the less information you give out, the better. The monsters someone conjures in their minds and all that. That way they get what they want, and don't even need to do a damn thing.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:40:44


Post by: Sarouan


Not Online!!! wrote:
Except we already had animatiors ,parody or non parody attacked by c&d by gw.


Since the updated guidelines ? Where are the proofs ? Or is it another attempt to distort the facts here ?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:40:45


Post by: Overread


Not Online!!! wrote:
Except we already had animatiors ,parody or non parody attacked by c&d by gw.


Context is everything though and its important to also remember of many of those targeted many were also offered work/contracts by GW and were making profit off fan works created based on the GW IP/content.

Honestly GW is taking actions that I expect of them now that they are moving into videos as a market, the same as they've taken against video games when they moved into that market. Don't forget as much as GW might be hiring animation firms; animation firms might also approach GW to use their IP and pay a licence fee for that .

A lot of this is also complicated by the fact that over the last 10 or so years we've seen the rise of things like Patreon where fan created works go from being just a fan making a fan work for fun; into something that generates significant income to the point of being their primary income source (or a significant income source at the very least). This significantly changes some things when it comes to fan works.



If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:44:46


Post by: Not Online!!!


Sarouan wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Except we already had animatiors ,parody or non parody attacked by c&d by gw.


Since the updated guidelines ? Where are the proofs ? Or is it another attempt to distort the facts here ?


You know preciscly which animator i mean, cue last thread.
But then again that didn't bother you either since gw good is a Staple for you.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:49:10


Post by: lord_blackfang


Self-censorship. In just a few days GW have instituted rulership by fear, where fans police themselves and each other. It's imbecilic to argue that GW "didn't do anything". They did plenty, they explicitly changed their policy and then shut down a slew of projects from fan animations to "GW compatible" miniature sculpting in rapid succession. When the police are raiding a rave it's a bit dumb to stand there and think everything is fine because they didn't get to you yet.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:49:31


Post by: Overread


Not Online!!! wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Except we already had animatiors ,parody or non parody attacked by c&d by gw.


Since the updated guidelines ? Where are the proofs ? Or is it another attempt to distort the facts here ?


You know preciscly which animator i mean, cue last thread.
But then again that didn't bother you either since gw good is a Staple for you.


You mean the guy who got hounded out of animation by fans before he'd even done any negotiations to work for GW?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Self-censorship. In just a few days GW have instituted rulership by fear, where fans police themselves and each other. It's imbecilic to argue that GW "didn't do anything". They did plenty, they explicitly changed their policy and then shut down a slew of projects from fan animations to "GW compatible" miniature sculpting in rapid succession. When the police are raiding a rave it's a bit dumb to stand there and think everything is fine because they didn't get to you yet.


Several of those miniature sculpting campaigns are back online.

The "not nighthaunt" one even posted this. (sorry for the large size it wasn't my original screengrab)
Spoiler:



If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 08:53:13


Post by: Sarouan


Not Online!!! wrote:


You know preciscly which animator i mean, cue last thread.
But then again that didn't bother you either since gw good is a Staple for you.


Then it's just another case of the facts being distorted, because that animator in question didn't receive a cease and desist letter...he was contacted by GW who ask him if he wanted to work with them, he refused for his own reasons and was asked not to monetize GW IP content. And he did that himself. It was simply a contact.

Besides, the animator in question said he'll still continue his work with GW IP, just not monetized, and GW seems apparently fine with this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Self-censorship. In just a few days GW have instituted rulership by fear, where fans police themselves and each other. It's imbecilic to argue that GW "didn't do anything". They did plenty, they explicitly changed their policy and then shut down a slew of projects from fan animations to "GW compatible" miniature sculpting in rapid succession. When the police are raiding a rave it's a bit dumb to stand there and think everything is fine because they didn't get to you yet.


Come on, GW isn't the police breaking your door to kill your family as retribution of stealing their IP...

Honestly, there's a lot of noise in the fan animation community right now and with a lot of videos made that do nothing to appease their fears, rather ignite them...it's not a surprise we have this result.

People are freaking out themselves alone, so far. I'd say to come back to this topic when the real cease and desist letters are sent...if they are at all.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 09:15:40


Post by: Pacific


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Self-censorship. In just a few days GW have instituted rulership by fear, where fans police themselves and each other. It's imbecilic to argue that GW "didn't do anything". They did plenty, they explicitly changed their policy and then shut down a slew of projects from fan animations to "GW compatible" miniature sculpting in rapid succession. When the police are raiding a rave it's a bit dumb to stand there and think everything is fine because they didn't get to you yet.


This is exactly what happened last time.

I think the actual number of C&Ds issued in the late 00's/early 10's was very low. But, with a year you had forum members on some sites ratting on each other to report them to GW, site moderators stepping in and removing posts and threads because there was such a climate of fear.

This time around it looks like the Youtube channel and fan community there will be the biggest impact rather than the forums, but the overall effect will be the same. Let's hope that it doesn't go as far.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 09:18:29


Post by: MaxT


 nels1031 wrote:
My initial thought : Bad move, Tabletop Simulator was a huge boon during pandemic lockdowns. Could they even really go after Tabletop Simulator?

My second thought like 10 seconds into the video : Oh, its not Tabletop Simulator. I don’t give a feth.


Same!


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 09:23:30


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


(I am not a lawyer, I am certainly not a lawyer specializing in UK IP case law, this is not legal advice)

If TTS or another parody channel did try to fight they'd have a tough time. After all GW would not complain to them, they would go to You Tube and Patreon who, I am sure, would demonitize or remove them because You Tube and Patreon don't feel like fighting the good fight in the name of defending the right to make parodies.

If, like Chapterhouse, they had their own site and GW had to confront them directly... it's still not a slam dunk.

Parody (AFAK, and in US law) is a protected part of free speech allowing creators to use copyrighted materials for parody. But it does not allow companies to infringe on trademarks. So drawing some Hello Kitty Marines or photoshoping Trump as the Emperor or whatever would seem to be a fair use parody.

But using Warhammer names, logos, iconography etc, trademarked images that identify something as a GW product, would be out. Since every Ultramarine and Guardsman and such has GW trademarked logos on them it would be hard to have an identifiable Marine or guardsman in a video without stepping on trademark issues.

As noted in the video an original work, even if it was the Gawd Umpire of Sacred Earth would have greater protection than videos using GW's trademarked and copyrighted images. Think of the old Mad Magazine parodies (it was a lawsuit against Mad that established the parody exception BTW) where everyone gets a silly name.

Generally fan works have, for a long time, been tolerated for the reasons we all mentioned - too small to bother with, free advertising, who does it hurt, why pick a fight with your biggest fans.

But as the gig and patron economy have taken off and fan works have a reach of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or millions (TTS has 380k subscribers) and become monetized the game has changed and these reasons are not as valid as they were 10 years ago (to say nothing of 30 years ago).

Now if I were GW, I would immediately reach out to them, sell them a license for like a penny, and put their work on the new app. But I'm not.

I


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 09:23:36


Post by: Sarouan


 Overread wrote:


Several of those miniature sculpting campaigns are back online.

The "not nighthaunt" one even posted this. (sorry for the large size it wasn't my original screengrab)
Spoiler:



Which is a proof that talking with GW isn't as scary as it looks.

I find it a shame the TTS guy didn't even try to do that, but then it's his own decision in the end.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Now if I were GW, I would immediately reach out to them, sell them a license for like a penny, and put their work on the new app. But I'm not.

I


For that, they have to be aware about its existence. GW isn't omniscient. There may be rumors about TTS being followed by some GW guys, but who knows if it's the truth or...simply, if it's just the case recently.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 09:46:37


Post by: grahamdbailey


I'd never heard of them before this, so thought I'd check them out. Ho hum. Not gonna lie, they're not great so, personally, no great loss. But ymmv.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 10:12:01


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Overread wrote:
All I can say is that its important to realise that he did this without GW actually taking any action save to update their legal disclaimer on their website. I understand the desire to take pre-emptive action to protect ones self, but at the same time without either side contacting the other we've no idea what the final outcome would be.
Don't be naive.

This "But they didn't make him do it!" line of argument that Sarouan is peddling in his desperate attempts to protect GW is so disingenuous as to be actually insulting. I'm surprised to find you following along.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 10:13:36


Post by: MJRyder


Goodness me there is a lot of overreaction in this thread. And in many cases, a total lack of understanding of how these things work!

Thank you Sarouan and Overread (as ever) for being voices of reason in this maelstrom of internet whining.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 10:15:59


Post by: deano2099


 Overread wrote:


A lot of this is also complicated by the fact that over the last 10 or so years we've seen the rise of things like Patreon where fan created works go from being just a fan making a fan work for fun; into something that generates significant income to the point of being their primary income source (or a significant income source at the very least). This significantly changes some things when it comes to fan works.



That's the key point here - if someone is just doing fanwork for fun there's no reason not to carry on making it. If you get a cease and desist you desist. That's a shame, but y'know, you find a new hobby. But once you make it your job, or a significant income source, then absolutely, you can't take the risk any more. You can't risk not being able to afford the rent.

And that's always the risk you take if you base your living on someone elses' work. Should it be a risk? I don't honestly know. I don't think it's actually that clear cut. Should you be able to make your own fan animation in the Warhammer universe? We mostly think yes? But should you be able to make your own Harry Potter film or novel? We mostly think that would be too far? But I don't know exactly where the middle is.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 10:30:42


Post by: Overread


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Overread wrote:
All I can say is that its important to realise that he did this without GW actually taking any action save to update their legal disclaimer on their website. I understand the desire to take pre-emptive action to protect ones self, but at the same time without either side contacting the other we've no idea what the final outcome would be.
Don't be naive.

This "But they didn't make him do it!" line of argument that Sarouan is peddling in his desperate attempts to protect GW is so disingenuous as to be actually insulting. I'm surprised to find you following along.



In my view its not "protecting" GW. GW has no more nor less rights than they did before they updated their legal disclaimer. The legal situation hasn't changed and GW has no more nor less protection nor right to act. The only difference is that GW is more likely to now act upon the legal powers that they have. Accepting that we might never know what they are unless something went to court.

That said as noted this isn't just fan-works anymore. These are serious businesses making money off GW derived content. The situation and the playingfield have changed, however from all that we've seen so far GW aren't doing this like they did before. This isn't the hammer and fist approach toward shutting everything down. GW is being more sensible with what they legally can do and is more likely to also turn around and offer work (esp for the video content)/contracts to the content creators.

This is a very different approach to how things happened before; and as noted the field for the fan creators is also very different.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:08:49


Post by: Sarouan


 Overread wrote:

In my view its not "protecting" GW.


It's certainly not. I just don't like people distorting facts to fit their own narrative, no matter how right they think they are. They don't make themselves any better than the ones they criticize and think they are the devil or something by doing that, IMHO.

If GW actually sent a cease and desist letter leading to TTS forced closure, I would have understood the reactions. But we're not even close to that here.

Like I said, I believe it's really a shame the TTS guy didn't try to talk to GW before taking that decision. Maybe he would have had a good surprise, like the "not nighthaunt" kickstarter. But he's clearly afraid to do so / thinks it's a lost cause. Maybe he'll change his mind later, who knows.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:12:35


Post by: Mario


H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Overread wrote:
All I can say is that its important to realise that he did this without GW actually taking any action save to update their legal disclaimer on their website. I understand the desire to take pre-emptive action to protect ones self, but at the same time without either side contacting the other we've no idea what the final outcome would be.
Don't be naive.

This "But they didn't make him do it!" line of argument that Sarouan is peddling in his desperate attempts to protect GW is so disingenuous as to be actually insulting. I'm surprised to find you following along.
It feels like a lot of people who are saying that GW didn't directly do anything actively don't want to understand that a chilling effect is something that happens even if some entity doesn't actively interfere. From the wikipedia link:
In a legal context, a chilling effect is the inhibition or discouragement of the legitimate exercise of natural and legal rights by the threat of legal sanction.[1] A chilling effect may be caused by legal actions such as the passing of a law, the decision of a court, or the threat of a lawsuit; any legal action that would cause people to hesitate to exercise a legitimate right (freedom of speech or otherwise) for fear of legal repercussions. When that fear is brought about by the threat of a libel lawsuit, it is called libel chill.[2] A lawsuit initiated specifically for the purpose of creating a chilling effect may be called a Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation ("SLAPP").

"Chilling" in this context normally implies an undesirable slowing. Outside the legal context in common usage; any coercion or threat of coercion (or other unpleasantries) can have a chilling effect on a group of people regarding a specific behavior, and often can be statistically measured or be plainly observed.


It seems like GW didn't do much this time around but all these changes in aggregate seem to have created a chilling effect in the fan creator community (GW wanting to start their own streaming service, people getting hired or otherwise stopping their releases, people knowing GW's history with IP enforcement,…). For TTS this reached a tipping point and they have chosen to stop making further videos until they feel that it's safe again. Because of all the individual elements surrounding this issue, GW didn't even need to directly threaten them with a lawsuit or some other way to enforce their IP rights.

Like somebody faking a punch to your face, it can still make you flinch even if they didn't actually hit you. Different people have different levels of tolerance for that type of "but I didn't even touch you" games and GW has a history of playing around in that way (and sometimes even hitting people).


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:15:13


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Isn't GW encouraging people to report perceived copyright infringement? That probably doesn't help matters.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:15:44


Post by: kirotheavenger


We've definitely seen this chilling effect in 3d print Patreons, a lot of creators are pausing for a month or two to let this all shake out.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:22:11


Post by: a_typical_hero


I can understand pausing the relevant content on the channel in lights of the recent law text update on GW's website. Just as a precaution.

Now the content creator should get in contact with GW and ask about their stance towards them. (Something you might want to do as soon as you start earning money with somebody else's work...)

There's really no reason to be angry at anyone before such a talk happened and we know the outcome.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:30:15


Post by: Overread


I think the analogies are perhaps getting a little daft



If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:33:25


Post by: Not Online!!!


And yet here we See people that deny the chilling effect.
Or have forgotten what gw did some time ago.

No, there is no reason to give gw any benefit of the doubt at all out of a community perspective.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:40:01


Post by: Mentlegen324


Not Online!!! wrote:
And yet here we See people that deny the chilling effect.
Or have forgotten what gw did some time ago.

No, there is no reason to give gw any benefit of the doubt at all out of a community perspective.


So them having this same policy in place for the past 6 years - and it being part of copyright law regardless of that - doesn't mean anything to you?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:40:31


Post by: Albertorius


 Overread wrote:
I think the analogies are perhaps getting a little daft



Well, not really. What GW did is the legalese equivalent of unholstering a gun and putting it on the table.

They might not do anything with it. But they also might.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:43:25


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
And yet here we See people that deny the chilling effect.
Or have forgotten what gw did some time ago.

No, there is no reason to give gw any benefit of the doubt at all out of a community perspective.


So them having this same policy in place for the past 6 years - and it being part of copyright law regardless of that - doesn't mean anything to you?


The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .
Its just one Step back to old gw at a time


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:46:01


Post by: Sarouan


Anyway, seeing at the comments on TTS channel, it's clear that the main caucus is "how dare GW did that to you", so the guy will certainly not change his mind by reading them. All it's doing is comforting him in his decision.

It's to the point of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy, at this stage.

Heh, whatever. If people like to hurt themselves so much than they'll ignore basic logic and facts, who am I to try to force them to see what they don't want to look at.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:46:20


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
And yet here we See people that deny the chilling effect.
Or have forgotten what gw did some time ago.

No, there is no reason to give gw any benefit of the doubt at all out of a community perspective.


So them having this same policy in place for the past 6 years - and it being part of copyright law regardless of that - doesn't mean anything to you?

It's objectively not the same policy.
The policy used to be "we're cool with fan animations provided you don't make money".
Now it's "no fan animations at all, zero tolerance".
Shortly before implementing that change to their policy they shut down several well known animators, such as Astartes and SODAZ.
So it's easy to see why a change is being perceived.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:48:36


Post by: Albertorius


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
 Overread wrote:
I think the analogies are perhaps getting a little daft



Well, not really. What GW did is the legalese equivalent of unholstering a gun and putting it on the table.

They might not do anything with it. But they also might.


Not exactly, what GW did was walk straight into a room full of 40k animators, put a loaded gun on a table and loudly proclaim that they're going to now use it to shoot anyone that makes 40k animations, unless they kneel before them.

Seeing people bail and claiming GW had nothing to do with it in such a situation is pretty daft and ignorant.


That would be more a matter of degree ^^


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 11:51:04


Post by: Sarouan


Not Online!!! wrote:

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .


So far, GW has done nothing of that. But hey, keep building that fake narrative of yours to consolidate your own beliefs that "GW is Evil".


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:03:23


Post by: Lord Kragan


Sarouan wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .

fake narrative


Are we really devolving into trump-esque arguments now?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:08:13


Post by: Sarouan


Lord Kragan wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .

fake narrative


Are we really devolving into trump-esque arguments now?


Sadly, we are to this stage now...GW haters don't care about facts anymore. They just spin them so that it comforts their beliefs.

Proofs, true evidence...that doesn't matter. Low salaries to creative designers become close to poverty wages, content creator deciding to put his own channel on hiatus becomes forced closure by evil GW, people pointing facts become GW protectors.

It's not because the cause is different that the means can't be used in the same despicable way.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:09:41


Post by: Lord Kragan


Sarouan wrote:
Lord Kragan wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .

fake narrative


Are we really devolving into trump-esque arguments now?


Sadly, we are to this stage now...GW haters don't care about facts anymore. They just spin them so that it comforts their beliefs.

Proofs, true evidence...that doesn't matter. Low salaries to creative designers become close to poverty wages, content creator deciding to put his own channel on hiatus becomes forced closure by evil GW, people pointing facts become GW protectors.

It's not because the cause is different that the means can't be used in the same despicable way.



...

Okay, pardon the bluntness but: I meant you. You're literally going fake new, fake news, get destroyed by logic and facts!


Jesus.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:11:23


Post by: Mentlegen324


 MJRyder wrote:
Goodness me there is a lot of overreaction in this thread. And in many cases, a total lack of understanding of how these things work!

Thank you Sarouan and Overread (as ever) for being voices of reason in this maelstrom of internet whining.


Some of the over-reactions and hyperbolic takes I've seen with this whole thing are just absurd. I can totally understand why people might be concerned with this, but it seems to go beyond just reasonable concern and instead in some cases seems like trying to find any excuse just to say "GW Evil!" regardless of having an actual understanding of the situation or how things work or not.

The first thing is that Games Workshop are well within their rights to do all of this and what they said in that article lines up with what copyright law covers in the first place. Regardless of whether they'd written that article or not, all of what was said in there applied to their IP and them writing the article hasn't changed that. They own the copyright and trademarks, they're theirs to defend. Granted, the article doesn't mention the exceptions allowed under copyright law like parody or review....but neither did the previous version.

The previous version of this article said the same thing as this new one does, which again is the same thing copyright law protects It's worded differently but it's all there - the same things about not distributing their copyrighted material, or using their trademarks, or making them look bad etc. It even, just like the new version does, says you need a license from them in order to make things using their IP:

...want to make a video game, an app, some merchandise, a movie or anything else that you will be distributing (either for free or at a cost) using Games Workshop’s IP then you need permission in the form of a license from Games Workshop


Animations would be covered under either "movie" or "anything else". The new article is not some new stance on that, the idea that you don't have permission to use the IP for that sort of thing and need to get a license has been there for over half a decade. That the new one outright says "animations" doesn't mean it wasn't covered before and it having its own line now is no more indicative of their intent with those than the game section getting its own line is. All the infringement stuff has been written like that now.

As for the wording of the article itself, with it overall being written in a somewhat less 'friendly' seeming way, that's something that applies to the entire article and not just a specific part of it. It's a condensed version of the original that instead goes for clearer, shorter sections - the harsher language applies to both the friendly guidelines section and the infringement section, so that overall being worded like that is not something that suggests any sort of approach regarding the infringement part specifically. It's just a part of them rewriting the article to remove the flowery language from the actual descriptive parts of it, but still has some of that present before the important guideline and legal stuff gets mentioned too. The tone is down to the article format.

There's been a lot of things said like "GW are forcing them to join or remove their work!" and saying they're bullying people into doing what they want...even though the creator of "The Last Church" has said that was not the case at all with how they talked to him and that they were perfectly reasonable.

They've re-worded the policy that was already in place for the past half a decade, and they made an offer to those infringing on their IP to give them a job - which they're perfectly fine to refuse, as several have. No C&Ds or threats or anything along those lines, yet people are still making it out that they're acting evil or in an extremely aggressive way that shows disdain for the community. That's not the case at all.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:16:22


Post by: Arbitrator


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Tabletop Inquirer is the GW bootlicking champion 2021.

"If we shill them enough maybe they'll offer us a job like those other web comics!"


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:16:27


Post by: Overread


In the end the discussion is going to collapse under itself somewhat because there's really nothing much else to say.

Until TTS or GW reach out to each other to negotiate and establish a factual relationship with each other; then all we have is one creator deciding to pause their content in advance of GW stating to assert their IP/Copyright/Trademark rights within the video industry.


It should be noted that with patreon and payments on the table its actually amazing GW waited until now to do any acting; in theory one could say that they should have stepped in legally years ago.

Again we are seeing a shift with fan works from a simple "fan work" into a business earning profit. The situation does change then and whilst some will be safe because they are parodies, others might not.


It is change and we might well lose some things. I thik most importantly what we are seeing from GW right now (not in the past under different managers) is that they are more willing to come to a mutual agreement with content creators rather than outright just barge in and shut them down.


We've seen them not issue CD claims on Kickstarters until after the KS has funded; we've seen them specify exact models and reasons for infringement; they've offered employment to video creators. These are all optional steps GW does not have to take, but are choosing to do so.

I think that it represents that whilst GW is taking the copyright seriously (as honestly we'd expect of any firm); they are also more willing to try and work with not against the market. This is a huge difference to in the past. It's the same as how today we see leaks turned into marketing from GW instead of them chasing after and trying to shut down news websites (Though I'm sure that behind the scenes those who deliberately leak will still see sanctions/actions taken against them - its just the person who created the leak not the sites reporting and spreading it).


I think GW DOES have a different attitude to in the past and they've shown this already many times over in these dealings.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:19:10


Post by: Sim-Life


Lord Kragan wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Lord Kragan wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .

fake narrative


Are we really devolving into trump-esque arguments now?


Sadly, we are to this stage now...GW haters don't care about facts anymore. They just spin them so that it comforts their beliefs.

Proofs, true evidence...that doesn't matter. Low salaries to creative designers become close to poverty wages, content creator deciding to put his own channel on hiatus becomes forced closure by evil GW, people pointing facts become GW protectors.

It's not because the cause is different that the means can't be used in the same despicable way.



...

Okay, pardon the bluntness but: I meant you. You're literally going fake new, fake news, get destroyed by logic and facts!


Jesus.


Shh. Just let him defend the faceless corporation that wants a monopoly over The Hobby.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:19:43


Post by: Mentlegen324


 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
And yet here we See people that deny the chilling effect.
Or have forgotten what gw did some time ago.

No, there is no reason to give gw any benefit of the doubt at all out of a community perspective.


So them having this same policy in place for the past 6 years - and it being part of copyright law regardless of that - doesn't mean anything to you?

It's objectively not the same policy.
The policy used to be "we're cool with fan animations provided you don't make money".


Please, quote the exact part of these previous 2014 guidelines I here where you think they say this. They outright say the opposite.

The guidelines section says fan sites and art are allowed - like the current one does. The infringement-related section says you need to get a license for games, apps, movies and anything along those lines because you don't have permission - just like the current one does


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:20:35


Post by: lord_blackfang


 Overread wrote:
We've seen them not issue CD claims on Kickstarters until after the KS has funded


You do understand that this is worse, right?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:21:21


Post by: Overread


 lord_blackfang wrote:
 Overread wrote:
We've seen them not issue CD claims on Kickstarters until after the KS has funded


You do understand that this is worse, right?


How is it worse?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:23:27


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


But GW IS evil. They barely pay their employees, and keep driving the already absurd prices higher and higher so the higher-ups can pocket ever-absurder amounts of cash on each sale. They make day one DLCs for their already hideously overpriced, terribly written, misspelled, terribly balanced books that are going to be outdated in weeks due to the flood of FAQs and error fixing, because their playtesters probably haven't even seen them once before they went to print. They routinely ignore vast swathes of their community and their wishes. They wield their IP like a battleaxe, making extremely thinly-veiled threats at content creators. They routinely underproduce and exploit underhanded tactics to sell as much as they can. They routinely blatantly lie straight to the face of their entire fanbase. How blind can you be?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:26:24


Post by: Mentlegen324


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They routinely blatantly lie straight to the face of their entire fanbase.


Such as?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:28:46


Post by: Lord Kragan


 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They routinely blatantly lie straight to the face of their entire fanbase.


Such as?


Cursed city, to begin with? That's the first example I can think of.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:30:54


Post by: Sarouan


 Mentlegen324 wrote:
[

Please, quote the exact part of these previous 2014 guidelines I here where you think they say this. They outright say the opposite.

The guidelines section says fan sites and art are allowed - like the current one does. The infringement-related section says you need to get a license for games, apps, movies and anything along those lines because you don't have permission - just like the current one does


Indeed. Yet again, the myth of "fan animations are fine if not for money" kept circulating somehow for years.

At least the updated guidelines are clearer, I guess.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:32:21


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


Lord Kragan wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They routinely blatantly lie straight to the face of their entire fanbase.


Such as?


Cursed city, to begin with? That's the first example I can think of.


Would you also consider Kill Team 40K?


Re-release old set. Adjust price by 20%. Give less content. Tell NO ONE there is less stuff. Repeatedly flat out lie about that on social media. Delete posts.

https://youtu.be/j23EzsHyS80


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:33:07


Post by: Overread


Lord Kragan wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They routinely blatantly lie straight to the face of their entire fanbase.


Such as?


Cursed city, to begin with? That's the first example I can think of.


Far as we can tell from their last shareholders update CC suffered a lack of sufficient stock to meet demand. However considering everything that surrounded its release its clear that whatever happened it was not a planned nor calculated move on GW's part.

It's the same as how GW pushed a lot of Dominion on retailers based on CC and Indomitus sales and then some ended up with way more stock than they needed. It wasn't a calculated bad move on GW's part, it was the market reacting in ways GW didn't predict it would

CC is a mistake and it is a poor move that GW didn't upfront say what went wrong and such. And I say that as someone who wanted it and didn't get it because I didn't have the money at the time and assumed it would come back into print like Black Fortress did. It might still do, but we don't know for sure. Certainly something (or several things) went wrong.



GW are not perfect. I just feel we don't need to invent or guess or suppose worse (nor better) until we see it.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:34:16


Post by: Sarouan


Lord Kragan wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They routinely blatantly lie straight to the face of their entire fanbase.


Such as?


Cursed city, to begin with? That's the first example I can think of.


You mean, the game where they said on Twitter that it was mistakenly advertised as being a not limited product on their facebook page ? Post that was removed after that ?

Guess you can say it's a lie.

But that's a far stretch to say it's "routinely". Well, must be on the same line than "GW salaries are close to poverty wages".


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:37:39


Post by: Lord Kragan


Sarouan wrote:
Lord Kragan wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They routinely blatantly lie straight to the face of their entire fanbase.


Such as?


Cursed city, to begin with? That's the first example I can think of.

Guess you can say it's a lie.


Well, yes. If you say something and then it turns it's another thing, and you know it's going to be the case but keep mum until it's too late... that's a lie. You can try and clean the mess caused by your lie, and it could have been the case that there was no malice. It's still a lie.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:39:02


Post by: Tiennos


 kirotheavenger wrote:

The policy used to be "we're cool with fan animations provided you don't make money".
Between Patreon and potentially Youtube monetization, TTS is definitely not in the "don't make money" category, though. I'm not a lawyer, but I imagine it'd be hard to pass it all under fair use if it's someone's main source of income (I don't know if it actually is, but it looks like it).

Maybe GW would have agreed to sell a license to the TTS team, but we'll never know if they don't even ask...


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:39:03


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


...except before Cursed City went on sale, GW clarified multiple times through different communication channels that Cursed City is going to be a permanent part of the range that's going to be in production for several years going forward, like Blackstone Fortress.

And then when it actually went on sale and it turned out to be a one-and-done limited box, they then proceeded to badly try and cover up their tracks and delete all mentions of them saying it's a permanent thing, trying to act like they always said it's a limited box. If that's not a blatant lie I don't know what could possibly count as one, literally selling empty boxes?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:42:14


Post by: frankelee


Well I'm excited to see the fallout from all of this. All over Youtube people are claiming GW is burning itself to the ground and losing the entirety of its fanbase because of the animations thing, I want to see if this is true. Will their next financial report tell us the company is in ruins or will they be carrying on with business as usual and sales as usual?

I never watched any of these 40K cartoons, and you never really hear about them in outside discussions, so it's hard to gauge just how big a part of the overall Warhammer community is being enraged right now.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:43:53


Post by: Sarouan


 Tiennos wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:

The policy used to be "we're cool with fan animations provided you don't make money".
Between Patreon and potentially Youtube monetization, TTS is definitely not in the "don't make money" category, though. I'm not a lawyer, but I imagine it'd be hard to pass it all under fair use if it's someone's main source of income (I don't know if it actually is, but it looks like it).


Yes, that was one of his fears quoted in the video : the fact he earns money from it.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:43:57


Post by: lord_blackfang


 Overread wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 Overread wrote:
We've seen them not issue CD claims on Kickstarters until after the KS has funded


You do understand that this is worse, right?


How is it worse?


Seems worse to me to tell an artist they aren't allowed to deliver after they've already been paid for it.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:44:52


Post by: Arbitrator


 frankelee wrote:
Well I'm excited to see the fallout from all of this. All over Youtube people are claiming GW is burning itself to the ground and losing the entirety of its fanbase because of the animations thing, I want to see if this is true. Will their next financial report tell us the company is in ruins or will they be carrying on with business as usual and sales as usual?

I never watched any of these 40K cartoons, and you never really hear about them in outside discussions, so it's hard to gauge just how big a part of the overall Warhammer community is being enraged right now.

Lol 8th 40k showed GW barely need to do anything to get people eating out of their hands. They'll probably offer Alfa a tour around Warhammer World or something and everybody will call them the bestist company ever again.

When the new Black Templar stuff is revealed 90% of people will have forgotten all about it. Like the price hike immediately before Indomitus was revealled.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:45:08


Post by: Mentlegen324


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Lord Kragan wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They routinely blatantly lie straight to the face of their entire fanbase.


Such as?


Cursed city, to begin with? That's the first example I can think of.


Would you also consider Kill Team 40K?


Re-release old set. Adjust price by 20%. Give less content. Tell NO ONE there is less stuff. Repeatedly flat out lie about that on social media. Delete posts.

https://youtu.be/j23EzsHyS80


Your best example of how they "routinely blatantly lie " was them mistakenly using some old photos in a preview article (the article also calls them "Three new Killzone expansion sets" and doesn't even hint they're a re-release of the previous box, beyond those pictures), an article which at some point got updated to show the photos of the proper version?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:48:23


Post by: Overread


 lord_blackfang wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 Overread wrote:
We've seen them not issue CD claims on Kickstarters until after the KS has funded


You do understand that this is worse, right?


How is it worse?


Seems worse to me to tell an artist they aren't allowed to deliver after they've already been paid for it.


At the same time most of the KS appear to have been running when GW started taking these actions; if they brought legal against the KS whlist they were running the KS run the risk of losing funding time and ending up with significantly less money than if they were allowed to complete. As the message I noted earlier, GW are also willing to generally work with the creator to ensure works are not infringing and to re-assess them when they are changed. The content creator has the option to rework things.

It's not ideal, but at the very least they've got options on the table and their campaign has been allowed to complete. Keeping in mind many of these might not be well advertised until they start so GW might have no reason to notice them until they appear on KS itself - arguably a touch late.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:48:54


Post by: Sarouan


 frankelee wrote:
Well I'm excited to see the fallout from all of this. All over Youtube people are claiming GW is burning itself to the ground and losing the entirety of its fanbase because of the animations thing, I want to see if this is true. Will their next financial report tell us the company is in ruins or will they be carrying on with business as usual and sales as usual?

I never watched any of these 40K cartoons, and you never really hear about them in outside discussions, so it's hard to gauge just how big a part of the overall Warhammer community is being enraged right now.


I think it's more a question about the (still relatively) recent update and people who are concerned not knowing what to do.

I do expect it will calm down after a bit, once all those videos made by people about the change and its possible implications become less numerous.

Rest will depend on what GW actually do with true cease and desist letters, if they do. Like Overread, I'd rather wait and see what the future really brings than trying to make doom prophecies.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:51:39


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Even Valrak's had enough:



If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:52:53


Post by: Nurglitch


I'm still more worried about Tabletop Simulator, given how much GW stuff is out there for it. Not that I play GW games on there, but it's currently the only place people can play my game so I'm ever-so-slightly paranoid.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:56:20


Post by: Sarouan


 Overread wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
 Overread wrote:
We've seen them not issue CD claims on Kickstarters until after the KS has funded


You do understand that this is worse, right?


How is it worse?


Seems worse to me to tell an artist they aren't allowed to deliver after they've already been paid for it.


At the same time most of the KS appear to have been running when GW started taking these actions; if they brought legal against the KS whlist they were running the KS run the risk of losing funding time and ending up with significantly less money than if they were allowed to complete. As the message I noted earlier, GW are also willing to generally work with the creator to ensure works are not infringing and to re-assess them when they are changed. The content creator has the option to rework things.

It's not ideal, but at the very least they've got options on the table and their campaign has been allowed to complete. Keeping in mind many of these might not be well advertised until they start so GW might have no reason to notice them until they appear on KS itself - arguably a touch late.


Also...it should be good to notice that the creator of a KS project has the possibility to contact GW before the project itself is launched, to see if there could be any possible trouble with some of the designs that he's aware of.

The "not nighthaunt" KS creator, for example, knew very well what he was doing by making certain concepts, including the markers, to the point he advertised as such on this forum. So you can't say they weren't totally expecting what could happen in the end.

Let's be honest here : main reason why people don't do that is mostly because they're fully aware of what they're doing and want to be close on the design on purpose to reach more backers - and don't want to catch GW's attention too easily by contacting them first (rest is assuming GW will refuse anyway, even though we have some proofs here that's actually not always the case, far from it).


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 12:56:54


Post by: a_typical_hero



Not Online!!! wrote:

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .
Its just one Step back to old gw at a time

That is not a true report of events and you know it. Unless by "attacking" you mean that GW offered several content creators, who were making a living with GW's intellectual property, to instead work officially for GW. At least one instance where even after refusing the offer the content creator was allowed to continue with 40k animations. Just not taking money for it. Another instance where the content creator was abused online by the oh so caring community to the point where he stopped animation altogether.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Shortly before implementing that change to their policy they shut down several well known animators, such as Astartes and SODAZ.
So it's easy to see why a change is being perceived.

Again. See above. "Shut down" = offering a job, letting people continue if they refuse. SODAZ was shut down by the gakky online community. Nobody to blame but the anonymous internet here.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 13:00:51


Post by: Mentlegen324


a_typical_hero wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

The fact that they now Act on it , Attacking creations that would in differing countries Fall under fair use Type of deals , abusing the Broken YouTube Copyright system , no i don't think so .
Its just one Step back to old gw at a time

That is not a true report of events and you know it. Unless by "attacking" you mean that GW offered several content creators, who were making a living with GW's intellectual property, to instead work officially for GW. At least one instance where even after refusing the offer the content creator was allowed to continue with 40k animations. Just not taking money for it. Another instance where the content creator was abused online by the oh so caring community to the point where he stopped animation altogether.



We even have one of the animators outright saying GW did nothing wrong with the situation. The creator of "The Last Church" said GW were fine and even praised them:

Hey everyone! I’d like to let you all know, from the team and myself, that the release of The Last Church has been a dream come true. The outpour of support from the community has been remarkable and we can never express how wonderful an experience this was for us.

Being now conscious of the fact that we were acting beyond our rights when we made this film and that we used an IP (and story!) that wasn’t ours to use, I can’t help but feel I’m obligated to take our animation down. .

But fret not! The good folks at Games Workshop have reached out to us and offered the possibility of collaboration on future projects. I’m sure you all understand how exciting that prospect is for us and how eager we are to pursue this opportunity. Although the cooperative process with GW has only just begun, I believe it may be the start of an exciting future for our team and the content we produce. We’ll make sure to keep you all posted!

I would like to emphasize that we were not just given a C&D and told to pack it up. GW very graciously took the time to meet with us, tell us how much they enjoyed our adaptation of The Last Church and explain how many liberties we really took with our film. They acted with the utmost kindness and consideration. (And Warhammer Animation offered us the chance to collaborate! That’s pretty awesome.) In fact, it’s possible that The Last Church may one day find a new home in GW’s media library. But that’s for the future to decide. What comes next can’t yet be said but rest assured we’ll make something great.

To all those who subscribed to our Patreon: thank you. Your support means the world to us and demonstrates the very real demand for the sort of films our team can create. The realization that so many were so excited to see more from us drives us to improve our skills and continue as a team. That being said, I’ll shut down the Patreon immediately.

Tony, Aaron and I can never truly express what this project meant to us. That meaning was illimitably amplified by the thousands of comments and messages we received in support. Thank you all. With some good grace and a pinch of fortune, we’ll be back with more films for you soon!

V/R, Tyber Portoghese


https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/mrpeqb/the_last_church_animation_has_been_deleted/guojda1/

Yet people are still saying "GW is Forcing animators!".


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 13:12:48


Post by: lord_blackfang


Hey guys GW invited us over and told us this belongs to them and we took it down of our own free will!

Astounding that after years of #MeToo some people still don't understand you don't need to physically smack someone around to abuse your power over them.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 13:14:41


Post by: Overread


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Hey guys GW invited us over and told us this belongs to them and we took it down of our own free will!
+

Well Warhammer does belong to GW


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 13:15:21


Post by: Mentlegen324


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Hey guys GW invited us over and told us this belongs to them and we took it down of our own free will!


This has to be one of the most absurd takes of this whole situation I've seen yet.

Infringing animator says GW acted perfectly reasonably, liked their work and offered them a collaboration (which they seemingly didn't take yet), didn't C&D them or threaten them or do anything along those lines with them taking their animations down themselves, with the animator even went so far as to praise GW for how they handled things? "They must have been forced to say that, they're lying!".

It really does seem like some people will try and find any excuse to try and potray GW as evil.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 13:20:46


Post by: Gert


For the people who are saying "Why didn't the TTS crew just speak to GW", some points.
1 - GW is notorious for being bad with communications, there isn't even a guarantee that GW would reply at all.
2 - Have you watched TTS? It's entirely based on making fun of 40k, GW and hobbyists. Hardly the brand friendly thing GW is looking for as partners.
3 - Did you watch Alfa's video? He specifically outlines his fears and reasons why he doesn't want to open a dialogue with GW.

Likewise everyone saying "GW is within their rights", maybe they are but nobody is testing the theory because its too much to put on the line. It also doesn't not make the IP rule changes/clarifications that directly contributed to the aura of uncertainty a bad thing.

And again, I've been called a GW shill/simp very recently on Dakka for not hating GW hard enough. Its called having an opinion and being open to change or new information.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 13:20:57


Post by: Sarouan


 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Yet people are still saying "GW is Forcing animators!".


To some, offering a job to work for a corporation is oppression.

On the Last Church's case, well...it's true that them saying that :

Being now conscious of the fact that we were acting beyond our rights when we made this film and that we used an IP (and story!) that wasn’t ours to use, I can’t help but feel I’m obligated to take our animation down. .


...is a bit odd but if people followed the myth "GW fan animations are fine as long as you don't make money from it" for such a long time, why not this justification as well.

Reactions are varied too on the reddit about that. Some are even going to the point of saying the creator was doing this on purpose to catch GW's attention and took advantage of the patreon backers meanwhile ? And I thought this topic was wild enough.


Anyway, like Overread said, the field of fan animations is far from being as "disinterested" than before, with all these patreon accounts.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 13:25:58


Post by: Nurglitch


It doesn't help that there's an infestation of idiots that need to scream that GW is evil, and probably using 5G signals to fluoridate their thetans. It increases the noise part of the noise: signal ratio...


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 13:26:52


Post by: Sarouan


 Gert wrote:
For the people who are saying "Why didn't the TTS crew just speak to GW", some points.
1 - GW is notorious for being bad with communications, there isn't even a guarantee that GW would reply at all.
2 - Have you watched TTS? It's entirely based on making fun of 40k, GW and hobbyists. Hardly the brand friendly thing GW is looking for as partners.
3 - Did you watch Alfa's video? He specifically outlines his fears and reasons why he doesn't want to open a dialogue with GW.

Likewise everyone saying "GW is within their rights", maybe they are but nobody is testing the theory because its too much to put on the line. It also doesn't not make the IP rule changes/clarifications that directly contributed to the aura of uncertainty a bad thing.


1. It's assuming, you don't know if you don't try.
2. It's assuming, you don't know if you don't try.
3. Yes, it's all about his fears. Which is why he didn't try : he assumed it was a lost cause without even trying.

The "not nighthaunt" ks project creator also assumed it could go worst. Then he got to talk with GW, and it wasn't as bad as he thought it could be. He had to change a few things, sure...but he still can do his project.

So what Alfa does really have to lose by simply asking GW ? If GW says "no", he already put his channel on hiatus anyway.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 13:46:00


Post by: grahamdbailey


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Even Valrak's had enough:



When someone makes an open 'letter', why can't they just do that, rather than a rambling, plodding monologue that's too bloody long and painful to listen to?
Even a transcript in the comments so I can spend a lot lees time getting to their point.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 13:47:45


Post by: Albino Squirrel


"what Alfa does really have to lose by simply asking GW ?"

Well, he's lose all the attention this is getting. Maybe they wanted to move on anyway and this in a convenient excuse that gets them a lot of attention and sympathy and hopefully a big audience for their next project.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 14:25:23


Post by: gorgon


grahamdbailey wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Even Valrak's had enough:



When someone makes an open 'letter', why can't they just do that, rather than a rambling, plodding monologue that's too bloody long and painful to listen to?
Even a transcript in the comments so I can spend a lot lees time getting to their point.


I dunno man. That's Valrak we're talking about. THE Valrak. That video is surely a clarion call that will rally DOZENS of supporters worldwide.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 14:25:25


Post by: Slipspace


 lord_blackfang wrote:

Astounding that after years of #MeToo some people still don't understand you don't need to physically smack someone around to abuse your power over them.


So far we've had the current situation compared to an active shooter scenario, and the long-standing exploitation, sexual, physical and emotional abuse of women. Anybody else think things are maybe just a little bit hyperbolic here?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 14:26:24


Post by: Albino Squirrel


Hyperbolic? More like delusional.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 14:28:03


Post by: ingtaer


Cautiously reopening this, there will be little tolerance for rule breaking in this thread from here on in. Be polite and dont post spam are easy enough rules to follow, please do so.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 17:17:55


Post by: Dysartes


My thanks to whichever MOD updated the title - let us set all (current) fears regarding TableTop Simulator to one side...


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 17:56:18


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 gorgon wrote:
grahamdbailey wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Even Valrak's had enough:



When someone makes an open 'letter', why can't they just do that, rather than a rambling, plodding monologue that's too bloody long and painful to listen to?
Even a transcript in the comments so I can spend a lot lees time getting to their point.


I dunno man. That's Valrak we're talking about. THE Valrak. That video is surely a clarion call that will rally DOZENS of supporters worldwide.


I mean, he's got 140k subscribers apparently. And not that I watch the guy, but he's got a reputation of being a GW sycophant. You can't deny that "dozens" is extreme hyperbole.

I don't get why in this forum and elsewhere, there's this belief that nobody goes beyond the surface level of the hobby. Yeah, the vast majority of 40k players don't go on forums, but they certainly go on youtube and reddit and probably peruse 40k content from time to time. If they're perusing, they'll discover this and have an opinion. It's not that far-fetched or rare.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 18:09:51


Post by: Sim-Life


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

I mean, he's got 140k subscribers apparently. And not that I watch the guy, but he's got a reputation of being a GW sycophant. You can't deny that "dozens" is extreme hyperbole.

I don't get why in this forum and elsewhere, there's this belief that nobody goes beyond the surface level of the hobby. Yeah, the vast majority of 40k players don't go on forums, but they certainly go on youtube and reddit and probably peruse 40k content from time to time. If they're perusing, they'll discover this and have an opinion. It's not that far-fetched or rare.


Easier to undermine your opponents argument by trivializing it.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 18:16:43


Post by: yukishiro1


Youtube people with a combined subscriber base well into the millions have made videos in the last few days condemning GW's practices, both salary and IP. That's relevant, and you can bet GW will have noticed, no matter how much that upsets its ardent defenders here and elsewhere.

Expect some sort of nonsense PR statement from GW in the next couple days that carefully avoids admitting any responsibility for anything and that portrays whatever bone they are throwing people - probably some minor raises for staff and a commit-free statement that they didn't intend to squelch the fan youtube community - as some great contribution to world peace.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 18:32:49


Post by: nels1031


Just as an aside, for someone like myself who never even heard of this guy before, is the 6 month gap in video uploads from this Text/talk guy normal?



If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 18:40:57


Post by: Gert


Yeah, it takes a long time to animate stuff.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 18:54:42


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 nels1031 wrote:
Just as an aside, for someone like myself who never even heard of this guy before, is the 6 month gap in video uploads from this Text/talk guy normal?



That’s pretty normal for smaller content creators, especially animated or edit-heavy ones.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 18:56:52


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Sim-Life wrote:
Easier to undermine your opponents argument by trivializing it.
Precicsely. I mean, I don't watch Valrak's stuff, but I know he exists. He's just one of the dozens and dozens of channels out there, and combined there are a lot of getting an inordinate amount of views. This topic even showed up in a dedicated Auspex Tactics video, and he pretty much just sticks to examining Codex entries.

It's being noticed - everywhere - and saying "Well, I guess all 10 of his fans will rally around him!" is not only dishonest, but frankly incredibly rude and dismissive.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 19:16:04


Post by: Sarouan


grahamdbailey wrote:

When someone makes an open 'letter', why can't they just do that, rather than a rambling, plodding monologue that's too bloody long and painful to listen to?
Even a transcript in the comments so I can spend a lot lees time getting to their point.


That's because a Youtube video is better ranked when it's at least 10 minutes long rather than 5 minutes. It has an importance about gathering more viewers and thus being more monetizable.

Reactions videos to whatever buzzs in the news is also pretty common on Youtube. Creators know that and take advantage of it.


About the consequences of this said buzz...we'll see in the future if GW decides to contact the concerned creators or not (since Valrak cites the TTS channel in his video) or updates their guidelines again.

Otherwise...Valrak's video takes a lot of shortcuts you can see on this topic as well.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 19:19:41


Post by: Chairman Aeon


Coat tail rider worried about coat owner kicking him off. Tune in next week when the board about GW games stands up for recasters and yells how dare GW try to stop them spreading Warhammer!


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 19:24:53


Post by: herjan1987


Well I am not the biggest name here on Dakkadakka, but I think sometimes you need to step up.

Alfabusa was one the reason I got into 40k. I like their light hearted style and got me into the lore, since I am still more of a Warhammer Fantasy fan.

Guys weed need to take action, in a way that Games Worshop notices. We need to move, because, if we dont draw a line, then what will happen next? Will take down DakkaDakka, because its an Ork special rule? I dont know the why did the Roundtable of Bretonnia ( https://web.archive.org/web/20210127131319/http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/ ), but they did mention, that because of legal reasons. Who is next then?

I watched a couple of videos about the topic and Wargamer Fritz said that the next possible target for GW will be those people, who create Battreps, Lorechannels with Patreon, because thats a direct contender to Warhammer+.

So what we can do?

Well I guess the best answer is given by an australian guy name Macca, who runs the Outer Circle:




Watch and act as you like. I know I will do my best to spread his idea.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 19:28:00


Post by: jaredb


 frankelee wrote:


I never watched any of these 40K cartoons, and you never really hear about them in outside discussions, so it's hard to gauge just how big a part of the overall Warhammer community is being enraged right now.


The only 40K animation I fell in love with (Helsreach), had it's creator join GW and is now making a movie, so I'm pretty excited. I never heard about Emperor text to speech until really obnoxious folks at my LGS kept going on about it, which really turned me off the whole thing. Same folks who come to the store just to argue and never buy anything. So, I'd say I'm not sad to see it go lol. If those folks stop coming to the store, it'll be a better place.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 19:33:39


Post by: grahamdbailey


 herjan1987 wrote:
Well I am not the biggest name here on Dakkadakka, but I think sometimes you need to step up.

Alfabusa was one the reason I got into 40k. I like their light hearted style and got me into the lore, since I am still more of a Warhammer Fantasy fan.

Guys weed need to take action, in a way that Games Worshop notices. We need to move, because, if we dont draw a line, then what will happen next? Will take down DakkaDakka, because its an Ork special rule? I dont know the why did the Roundtable of Bretonnia ( https://web.archive.org/web/20210127131319/http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/ ), but they did mention, that because of legal reasons. Who is next then?

I watched a couple of videos about the topic and Wargamer Fritz said that the next possible target for GW will be those people, who create Battreps, Lorechannels with Patreon, because thats a direct contender to Warhammer+.

So what we can do?

Well I guess the best answer is given by an australian guy name Macca, who runs the Outer Circle:




Watch and act as you like. I know I will do my best to spread his idea.


For those of us with no interest in sitting through over 16 minutes of this guy going on, any chance of an elevator pitch summary?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 19:35:26


Post by: Arbitrator


 Chairman Aeon wrote:
Coat tail rider worried about coat owner kicking him off. Tune in next week when the board about GW games stands up for recasters and yells how dare GW try to stop them spreading Warhammer!

Fan videos/parodies are 'coat tail riding' now huh.

 herjan1987 wrote:
Well I guess the best answer is given by an australian guy name Macca, who runs the Outer Circle:

Lol, Outer Circle, the Aussy who complains about prices every other video but won't stop buying Forge World at full price and wonder why they keep doing it. He usually raises good points, but every point he makes is undermined by people like him being exactly the reason GW have no need to change anything that's working fine for their bottom line. It's like WinterSEO going on his big "You are Warhammer!" rant whilst telling people to keep buying from GW.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 19:37:11


Post by: Sarouan


 jaredb wrote:
So, I'd say I'm not sad to see it go lol.


The channel "doesn't go". It's just on hiatus. The videos are still all there.

The creator can always come back on his decision and make another video saying "good news people I'm back and here is why".

There are a lot of needless drama and overreactions right now. We'll see if that really stays or if it's just temporary and it will eventually calm down as time goes on.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 19:49:29


Post by: lord_blackfang





I dug up my favorite 3 minute sampler for those who've never been explosed to TTS. I fully understand it won't convince anyone that the project is worth defending, but in my opinion it's better than most BL novels.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 19:49:49


Post by: herjan1987


grahamdbailey wrote:
 herjan1987 wrote:
Well I am not the biggest name here on Dakkadakka, but I think sometimes you need to step up.

Alfabusa was one the reason I got into 40k. I like their light hearted style and got me into the lore, since I am still more of a Warhammer Fantasy fan.

Guys weed need to take action, in a way that Games Worshop notices. We need to move, because, if we dont draw a line, then what will happen next? Will take down DakkaDakka, because its an Ork special rule? I dont know the why did the Roundtable of Bretonnia ( https://web.archive.org/web/20210127131319/http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/ ), but they did mention, that because of legal reasons. Who is next then?

I watched a couple of videos about the topic and Wargamer Fritz said that the next possible target for GW will be those people, who create Battreps, Lorechannels with Patreon, because thats a direct contender to Warhammer+.

So what we can do?

Well I guess the best answer is given by an australian guy name Macca, who runs the Outer Circle:




Watch and act as you like. I know I will do my best to spread his idea.


For those of us with no interest in sitting through over 16 minutes of this guy going on, any chance of an elevator pitch summary?


It drops down to a small letter campaing. Not e-mail. Physical letter to Nottingham. Packed with some used sprues.

Also he suggests that you should write polite letter, where raise your concerns about, the product they produce, the services they provide and in the same letter, you are will let them know that you are closing your GW webstore account, with writing your its details ( name, email ). The reason your leaving, how they let you down as a costumer and etc.

He is arguing, if we send them something physical, which thrash, they have to do something with it. So they can not just say we leave those sprues in the warehouse.

The jist of it start from the 10 minute mark.


 Arbitrator wrote:
 Chairman Aeon wrote:
Coat tail rider worried about coat owner kicking him off. Tune in next week when the board about GW games stands up for recasters and yells how dare GW try to stop them spreading Warhammer!

Fan videos/parodies are 'coat tail riding' now huh.

 herjan1987 wrote:
Well I guess the best answer is given by an australian guy name Macca, who runs the Outer Circle:

Lol, Outer Circle, the Aussy who complains about prices every other video but won't stop buying Forge World at full price and wonder why they keep doing it. He usually raises good points, but every point he makes is undermined by people like him being exactly the reason GW have no need to change anything that's working fine for their bottom line. It's like WinterSEO going on his big "You are Warhammer!" rant whilst telling people to keep buying from GW.


This time he as idea for those resin blocks.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 20:00:50


Post by: BaronIveagh


Sarouan wrote:

There are a lot of needless drama and overreactions right now. We'll see if that really stays or if it's just temporary and it will eventually calm down as time goes on.


Not likely. Several 3D animation channels who had been working on 40k material have announced they're also canning their projects over on reddit. On twitter, one of my fav 40k fan artists has announced that she's stopping any commissions that she hasn't already taken payment for. It looks like the sort of general pack up we saw ten years ago when GW shot itself in the foot last time. We'll see when the first lawsuits to come out of this start how much of an overreaction it is, but given GW's track history, less of one than you might think, I suspect.


As far as Warhammer+ I've been hearing rumors that it's turned into a real dumpster fire for the people who agreed. I know that when FFG worked on Deathwatch, GW tried to micromanage parts of it to an absurd extent. Maybe HBMC will remember exactly how many times that the Storm Wardens were submitted to GW, I think it was something like 20 times?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 20:20:33


Post by: Albino Squirrel


It's hilarious how bent out of shape people are getting over things that are happening entirely in their own minds. "If them, who is going to be next"? Next for what? GW didn't do anything to these guys. So who will be next to have absolutely nothing happen to them, except in your imagination? I guess whoever you want.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 20:24:53


Post by: BrianDavion


 BaronIveagh wrote:
Sarouan wrote:

There are a lot of needless drama and overreactions right now. We'll see if that really stays or if it's just temporary and it will eventually calm down as time goes on.


Not likely. Several 3D animation channels who had been working on 40k material have announced they're also canning their projects over on reddit. On twitter, one of my fav 40k fan artists has announced that she's stopping any commissions that she hasn't already taken payment for. It looks like the sort of general pack up we saw ten years ago when GW shot itself in the foot last time. We'll see when the first lawsuits to come out of this start how much of an overreaction it is, but given GW's track history, less of one than you might think, I suspect.


As far as Warhammer+ I've been hearing rumors that it's turned into a real dumpster fire for the people who agreed. I know that when FFG worked on Deathwatch, GW tried to micromanage parts of it to an absurd extent. Maybe HBMC will remember exactly how many times that the Storm Wardens were submitted to GW, I think it was something like 20 times?


that's normal when working with any big IP. I've heard similer stories from a guy who worked on the old WOTC Star Wars RPGs. I imagine that anything on WH+ will be subject to a high degree of quality control, given anything they put out will be offical and canon


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 20:29:55


Post by: Overread


Also don't forget some of those fan projects have never had outside influence to them beyond fans going " give me more". So chances are its a new experience for both sides in working out a working relationship. It might also be a bit nuts right now as everyone is coming on board all at the same time. So there is likely some bottleneck element going on.

Hopefully it will smooth out and work better over time.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 20:48:49


Post by: BrianDavion


 Overread wrote:
Also don't forget some of those fan projects have never had outside influence to them beyond fans going " give me more". So chances are its a new experience for both sides in working out a working relationship. It might also be a bit nuts right now as everyone is coming on board all at the same time. So there is likely some bottleneck element going on.

Hopefully it will smooth out and work better over time.


that said, this kinda feedback is going to be the norm for these guys if they get into animation for anyone professionally.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 21:01:29


Post by: SamusDrake


 lord_blackfang wrote:



I dug up my favorite 3 minute sampler for those who've never been explosed to TTS. I fully understand it won't convince anyone that the project is worth defending, but in my opinion it's better than most BL novels.


Mother of god...MOBILISE THE LEGAL TEAM IMMEDATELY!

But seriously I had no idea what all the fuss was about. Cheers for that as it gave me quite a chuckle.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 21:26:01


Post by: BaronIveagh


BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine that anything on WH+ will be subject to a high degree of quality control, given anything they put out will be offical and canon


I'm really hoping you didn't write that with a straight face. The entire arguments which will arise about whether any of what they produce will be 'canon' aside, since many here don't even consider BL canon, it will have nothing to do with actual quality control. My own experiences with GW lead me to believe that failure to communicate and 'too many cooks' will be the major issues. You'll probably have someone who's head-canon conflicts with the story you're trying to tell, and then there's the issue of insufficient brand synergy, where marketing wants X to be a major player in the story.

Hilariously, in light of current events, I stumbled across this again. How far we've come since White Dwarf #5.





If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 22:35:41


Post by: Mentlegen324


 BaronIveagh wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine that anything on WH+ will be subject to a high degree of quality control, given anything they put out will be offical and canon


Hilariously, in light of current events, I stumbled across this again. How far we've come since White Dwarf #5.




In a situation that revolves around GW saying you need a license in order to make stuff with their IP (which is just how copyright works and what they've said for the past 5 years regardless), you use a quote where GW says people should (or rather, "of course they should") need a license in order to make stuff with someone elses IP to try and say things have fallen since then?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/30 23:20:04


Post by: AegisGrimm


More relevant now than ever, lol.........

Full Warning, contains a single use of a slur (against the creators of the animation by themselves), and a written swear word. Mods remove if warranted.






If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 00:57:50


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Mentlegen324 wrote:

In a situation that revolves around GW saying you need a license in order to make stuff with their IP (which is just how copyright works and what they've said for the past 5 years regardless), you use a quote where GW says people should (or rather, "of course they should") need a license in order to make stuff with someone elses IP to try and say things have fallen since then?


Read the last Paragraph, the one that complains about 'strict enforcement of copyright'.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 01:32:54


Post by: Sim-Life


BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine that anything on WH+ will be subject to a high degree of quality control, given anything they put out will be offical and canon


You can't be serious. This is the company that produced the Ultramarines movie and published C.S. Goto's guro fanfics.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 01:47:05


Post by: yukishiro1


Not to mention the legion of mediocre to terrible 40k games they've licensed over the years (along with a handful of good to great ones).


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 02:22:27


Post by: frankelee


While the protests over shutting the animation channels has definitely reached some big names like Valrak, people's general unwillingness to understand the situation means they can flail around with videos and online petitions all the want, nothing will change. And I also don't look for GW to put out any sort of statement on the matter as all that will do is add fuel to the fire.

Every fan I've seen complaining about this shows a simple (non-legal, non-technical, non-business) understanding of the situation at best, and I don't say that to diminish them, but rather to note GW's actions all stem from legal, technical, and business facts and pressures. The problem even with a big boycott movement is that GW's not taking these actions as some personal caprice, they can't let people use their IPs in this way now, no matter what. Even if GW had to find some way to break the boycott and appease fans, the answer still couldn't be 'change their minds and let these animators keep their operations going.'

As I mentioned earlier I am interested to see if there is indeed a huge backlash, as the animation sub-community for 40K is something I barely knew even existed before now.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 03:17:49


Post by: Azreal13


 frankelee wrote:


GW's actions all stem from legal, technical, and business facts and pressures. The problem even with a big boycott movement is that GW's not taking these actions as some personal caprice,


They have a history of doing just this. Some of the testimony during the CHS was hyperbolic, and difficult to take from a company built on ripoffs from other ideas.

It also put me in mind of this, I was just going to quote the pertinent bits (it was written in the aftermath of the CHS verdict and IIRC the worst year of their slump prior to Rountree taking over) but it's too good not to take another read of for those who have forgotten or not seen it.

Tom Kirby addressing GW's Shareholders wrote:Games Workshop has had a really good year.
If your measure of 'good' is the current financial year's numbers, you may not agree. But if your measure is the long-term
survivability of a great cash generating business that still has a lot of potential growth, then you will agree.
Having taken on the conversion of our stores to a one man format with all the concomitant complexity of staff changes and new
sites and new lease negotiations – a long job not quite finished – we decided to re-arrange the management of our sales channels
from a country-based system to a central one. This meant removing four european headquarters, consolidating all trade (third
party) sales personnel at our Nottingham base, creating a new continental european grouping of our retail stores, and recruiting
new management for these divisions whilst flattening the structure by removing all middle management. At the same time we
changed leadership of our retail chain in the north american area, and gave birth to our new web store after many months’ labour.
All this has significantly de-risked the business. We have far fewer key personnel to replace if need be, and a much lower cost base
(£2 million p.a. less). It has cost, in total, around £4.5 million to accomplish. The new web store allows us to sell online more
efficiently. It cost around £4 million.
This augurs well for our long term health and cash flow.
What is really remarkable, however, is that it was all accomplished in five months. The levels of complexity handled by our 'back-
office' staff – personnel, IT and accounts – are beyond my descriptive abilities. And yet it was co-operatively done with precision,
efficiency and calmness at a ferocious speed.
We all owe these people a big vote of thanks. They have saved the company millions.
Working with people like this is why it is a pleasure to work here.
°
In the technological world we occupy there is constant debate over who 'innovates' and who merely copies. We have, this last year,
spent an indecent amount of your money trying to stop someone stealing our ideas and images. It is a very difficult thing to do
when it is done through a legal system designed to prevent people stealing hogs from one another. Our experience has probably
been typical of most – far too much money spent on far too little gain. The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?
Last year I published the secret that I believe is at the heart of what makes this business great. Steve Jobs once did the same over at
heavily litigating Apple. He said they ignored everything that did not lead to 'insanely great products' and that was what made them
great. None of the people Apple are suing are trying to do that, so why sue?
I said, ‘we recruit for attitude and not for skill’. It is what makes us great. It is those people who design the miniatures; those people
who make them and those people who sell them; those people who transformed our business systems in five short months. I have
been deluged with two comments about that statement, neither of which was: 'you fool, you just gave away the crown jewels'.
Why doesn't everyone do it? Ask them.
°
Because no one seems able to grasp the essential simplicity of what we do there has always been the search for the Achilles heel,
the one thing that Kirby and his cronies have overlooked. These are legion. I run through the list from time to time when someone
says that computer games will be the death of us – they are so much more realistic now! – again. This year it is 3-D printing. Pretty
soon everyone will be printing their own miniatures and where will we be then, eh?
We know quite a lot about 3-D printers, having been at the forefront of the technology for many years. We know of what we speak.
One day 3-D printers will be affordable (agreed), they are now, they will be able to produce fantastic detail (the affordable ones
won't) and they will do it faster than one miniature per day (no, they won't, look it up). So we may get to the time when someone
can make a poorly detailed miniature at home and have enough for an army in less than a year. That pre-supposes that 3-D
scanning technology will be affordable and good enough (don't bet the mortgage on that one) and that everyone will be happy to
have nothing but copies of old miniatures.
All of our great new miniatures come from Citadel. It is possible that one day we will sell them direct via 3-D printers to grateful
hobbyists around the world. That will not happen in the next few years (or, in City-speak, 'forever') but if and when it does it will
just mean that we can cut yet more cost out of the supply chain and be making good margins selling Citadel 3-D printers.
At the heart of the delusion is the notion that designing and making miniatures is easy. It isn't.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 03:18:47


Post by: yukishiro1


 frankelee wrote:
While the protests over shutting the animation channels has definitely reached some big names like Valrak, people's general unwillingness to understand the situation means they can flail around with videos and online petitions all the want, nothing will change. And I also don't look for GW to put out any sort of statement on the matter as all that will do is add fuel to the fire.

Every fan I've seen complaining about this shows a simple (non-legal, non-technical, non-business) understanding of the situation at best, and I don't say that to diminish them, but rather to note GW's actions all stem from legal, technical, and business facts and pressures. The problem even with a big boycott movement is that GW's not taking these actions as some personal caprice, they can't let people use their IPs in this way now, no matter what. Even if GW had to find some way to break the boycott and appease fans, the answer still couldn't be 'change their minds and let these animators keep their operations going.'

As I mentioned earlier I am interested to see if there is indeed a huge backlash, as the animation sub-community for 40K is something I barely knew even existed before now.


And yet GW let them do it for years and years, and not only did the sky not fall, but GW did better than they've ever done before.

But I'm sure anybody who challenges your supposedly superior understanding is just simple. That's very convincing. Not quite as convincing as the guy who stopped by just to tell everyone they were wrong and didn't understand how anything worked, but we can't all be that legendarily persuasive.





If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 04:22:16


Post by: AduroT


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
But GW IS evil. They barely pay their employees, and keep driving the already absurd prices higher and higher so the higher-ups can pocket ever-absurder amounts of cash on each sale. They make day one DLCs for their already hideously overpriced, terribly written, misspelled, terribly balanced books that are going to be outdated in weeks due to the flood of FAQs and error fixing, because their playtesters probably haven't even seen them once before they went to print. They routinely ignore vast swathes of their community and their wishes. They wield their IP like a battleaxe, making extremely thinly-veiled threats at content creators. They routinely underproduce and exploit underhanded tactics to sell as much as they can. They routinely blatantly lie straight to the face of their entire fanbase. How blind can you be?


Dude, you can’t say that. The IP policy strictly forbids fan sites from speaking badly of GW.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 06:12:44


Post by: Chopstick


GW is hiding their vindicare assassin somewhere taking aim at new fan contents and no talented creator would want to waste their time and effort to test it out if that was a bluff.

Although I reckon if your stuff fall under the radar (under 10k view, not uploaded on youtube, annonymous creator), it is unlikely to get a strike.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 06:58:22


Post by: Albertorius


This year it is 3-D printing. Pretty soon everyone will be printing their own miniatures and where will we be then, eh?
We know quite a lot about 3-D printers, having been at the forefront of the technology for many years. We know of what we speak. One day 3-D printers will be affordable (agreed), they are now, they will be able to produce fantastic detail (the affordable ones won't) and they will do it faster than one miniature per day (no, they won't, look it up). So we may get to the time when someone can make a poorly detailed miniature at home and have enough for an army in less than a year. That pre-supposes that 3-D scanning technology will be affordable and good enough (don't bet the mortgage on that one) and that everyone will be happy to have nothing but copies of old miniatures.

Oh my. I see he was right on the money on this one ^^. All this paragraph is nothing but the naked truth xDDD


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 07:35:55


Post by: BrianDavion


 Sim-Life wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I imagine that anything on WH+ will be subject to a high degree of quality control, given anything they put out will be offical and canon


You can't be serious. This is the company that produced the Ultramarines movie and published C.S. Goto's guro fanfics.


by quality control I mean in the corperate sense, IE "executive meddling" I shoulda put quotes around it I, assuming my meaning was obvious


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 09:46:54


Post by: Shadenuat


That Kirby text sounds like they fired a lot of people.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 10:07:14


Post by: tauist


Oh, that's a pity. Always liked that series, too many 40K fanfics taking themselves seriously out there.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 10:53:29


Post by: SamusDrake


 AegisGrimm wrote:
More relevant now than ever, lol.........

Full Warning, contains a single use of a slur (against the creators of the animation by themselves), and a written swear word. Mods remove if warranted.






This hits a nerve with me because my name is steve...


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 11:43:10


Post by: frankelee


yukishiro1 wrote:
 frankelee wrote:
While the protests over shutting the animation channels has definitely reached some big names like Valrak, people's general unwillingness to understand the situation means they can flail around with videos and online petitions all the want, nothing will change. And I also don't look for GW to put out any sort of statement on the matter as all that will do is add fuel to the fire.

Every fan I've seen complaining about this shows a simple (non-legal, non-technical, non-business) understanding of the situation at best, and I don't say that to diminish them, but rather to note GW's actions all stem from legal, technical, and business facts and pressures. The problem even with a big boycott movement is that GW's not taking these actions as some personal caprice, they can't let people use their IPs in this way now, no matter what. Even if GW had to find some way to break the boycott and appease fans, the answer still couldn't be 'change their minds and let these animators keep their operations going.'

As I mentioned earlier I am interested to see if there is indeed a huge backlash, as the animation sub-community for 40K is something I barely knew even existed before now.


And yet GW let them do it for years and years, and not only did the sky not fall, but GW did better than they've ever done before.

But I'm sure anybody who challenges your supposedly superior understanding is just simple. That's very convincing. Not quite as convincing as the guy who stopped by just to tell everyone they were wrong and didn't understand how anything worked, but we can't all be that legendarily persuasive.


You come here to persuade people? I couldn't care less, I just like filling computer down time with idle discussion. And yes, their understanding of it is simple, they go on about the situation in a sort of "colloquial" way, as if legal matters for big companies were the same as working out an issue between neighbors. Take your comment that they've let the animations go for years and the sky didn't fall. Nice, simple, farm logic to it. Wouldn't work in court, wouldn't work in a board room. My point was and is, all the angry consumers are on a different level of reality than Games Workshop is. But stop buying their products, I don't mind, I have.

 Albertorius wrote:
This year it is 3-D printing. Pretty soon everyone will be printing their own miniatures and where will we be then, eh?
We know quite a lot about 3-D printers, having been at the forefront of the technology for many years. We know of what we speak. One day 3-D printers will be affordable (agreed), they are now, they will be able to produce fantastic detail (the affordable ones won't) and they will do it faster than one miniature per day (no, they won't, look it up). So we may get to the time when someone can make a poorly detailed miniature at home and have enough for an army in less than a year. That pre-supposes that 3-D scanning technology will be affordable and good enough (don't bet the mortgage on that one) and that everyone will be happy to have nothing but copies of old miniatures.

Oh my. I see he was right on the money on this one ^^. All this paragraph is nothing but the naked truth xDDD


Tom Kirby really comes off like a true idiot. And I liked how he tried to blame the legal system and other people in the company for their failures in court, as if it wasn't at his direction they were abusively litigious.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 12:00:02


Post by: deano2099


Am sad to see it go like this but it's totally understandable to me. I remember in the 90s "fan works" meant stuff people did for fun in their spare time, and when companies went after it, they were rightly castigated for that.
But now there is YouTube ad revenue and Patreon. This thread started with someone for whom those are his primary sources of income. He literally bemoans in the video that he's going to have to get a part-time job now. And I do feel bad for him.
But he's not a fan creator any more is he? He's a professional animator. He must be because he's getting paid for it and that's his primary income source.

What is the fundamental difference between him and say Creative Assembly making the Total War Warhammer games? Why should they need a license but he doesn't? The size of the operation? And what size do we draw the line? If people can make content in the universe and get paid for it, why should anyone buy a license to do that?

From a more general perspective, I disagree with the whole notion of protecting fictional universes in this way. I think people should outright be able to make their own Harry Potter or Star Wars stuff, use those characters, play in those universes. That's my personal belief. But it's not how the world works by a long shot, and so GW's actions don't seem unreasonable to me.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 12:17:53


Post by: DarkStarSabre


Sarouan wrote:
Important information from the video, though : GW has actually done nothing to the channel nor contacted the creator, and the creator hasn't contacted GW either.

He decided to do that on his own. He simply read the updated rules on GW's website and gave up. That's it.

I watched the full video and I don't really understand why it's so long just for that...oh, right. It's a youtube video.

Predictable how people are immediately raging about GW while GW...did nothing to him specifically. That guy is solely the only one responsible of his decision, here.


To be quite honest, that alone is a statement to how vague and threatening their IP rule changes are.

They are worded in such a way that creators simply don't feel safe, whether they're doing fan animations, parody, stickers etc for hobby streams or whatever.

IT's back to the draconian levels where GW literally sued Spot the Space Marine and tried to claim the words 'Space Marine'. Which went embarassingly awry for them as Starship Troopers was probably the first use of the term and it's also been used in the Alien franchise so I'm very much wondering how much GW would like to fight against those franchises - answer: not a lot.

The concern is that GW will once again resort to bully tactics, forcing smaller creators etc, into submission through sheer size and pressure. This is what happened to TTS - they decided to -not- take the risk despite effectively being protected by fair use laws regarding parody.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 12:20:24


Post by: Shadenuat


deano2099 wrote:
I remember in the 90s "fan works" meant stuff people did for fun in their spare time.

It's called progress. You couldn't just pick up a free engine, mess around with it and make a working playable computer game before either, but now you can.
The level of engagement people could get into with anything grown more and more, there was time when you couldn't buy paints and had to grind them in a workshop slaving off for a master, now you can make anything you want and share with a few button clicks. There were little animation assist tools before and animators did everything by hand, now there are.
Some studios react to this differently, TIE Fighter has 12 mln views, you can watch it for free; partly because Star Wars is now so big and ingrained into culture it's hard for one person to hold it in a cage forever.

Time to begin selling licenses for fanart and animation and then stream best stuff made by fans monthly on your social media and YouTube channel.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 12:30:37


Post by: beast_gts


 DarkStarSabre wrote:
IT's back to the draconian levels where GW literally sued Spot the Space Marine and tried to claim the words 'Space Marine'. Which went embarassingly awry for them as Starship Troopers was probably the first use of the term and it's also been used in the Alien franchise so I'm very much wondering how much GW would like to fight against those franchises - answer: not a lot.


IIRC they didn't sue them: GW 'owns' "Space Marine" for video games & electronic entertainment and when Spots the Space Marine was first published as an eBook (it was released in print years before without issue) there was a question over whether it infringed, which it didn't (I can't remember if it was taken off-sale by an Amazon bot or GW asked them to while it was being sorted out).

EDIT: Looks like GW did ask Amazon - BBC & EFF.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 12:32:00


Post by: AduroT


 frankelee wrote:
Tom Kirby really comes off like a true idiot. And I liked how he tried to blame the legal system and other people in the company for their failures in court, as if it wasn't at his direction they were abusively litigious.


I love the one where he disparaged Pokémon as some long forgotten game.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 12:34:36


Post by: Grimtuff


 AduroT wrote:
 frankelee wrote:
Tom Kirby really comes off like a true idiot. And I liked how he tried to blame the legal system and other people in the company for their failures in court, as if it wasn't at his direction they were abusively litigious.


I love the one where he disparaged Pokémon as some long forgotten game.


And taught many a wargamer what "otiose" means.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 13:12:10


Post by: Chikout


I hadn't heard of this show before. I went and watched a few episodes. It's not exactly great. The first video I watched was the intro to 40k but it was literally GW art, minimal animation and a straight copy of the bit at the beginning of 40k rulebooks.
I then watched a couple of 'parody' videos and the comedy such as it is seems to come from the fact that the emperor swears a lot. Is this the creativity that we are bemoaning the loss of.
Then I learnt that this Youtuber has a patron that earns 180,000 a year.
That's probably more than any blacklibrary writer makes at a fraction of the quality.

Finally we have the fact that despite making a considerable amount of money, literally more than a million pounds, GW hasn't actually done a thing to this Youtuber.

The salary issue is a genuine problem that I find extremely troubling, but this is nothing.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 13:25:03


Post by: Catulle


 Tiennos wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:

The policy used to be "we're cool with fan animations provided you don't make money".
Between Patreon and potentially Youtube monetization, TTS is definitely not in the "don't make money" category, though. I'm not a lawyer, but I imagine it'd be hard to pass it all under fair use if it's someone's main source of income (I don't know if it actually is, but it looks like it).

Maybe GW would have agreed to sell a license to the TTS team, but we'll never know if they don't even ask...


In the video, he directly refers to having to potentially get a part time (or even full time) job to supplement lost TTS income if the Patron donations take a dip.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 13:50:11


Post by: Chikout


Catulle wrote:
 Tiennos wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:

The policy used to be "we're cool with fan animations provided you don't make money".
Between Patreon and potentially Youtube monetization, TTS is definitely not in the "don't make money" category, though. I'm not a lawyer, but I imagine it'd be hard to pass it all under fair use if it's someone's main source of income (I don't know if it actually is, but it looks like it).

Maybe GW would have agreed to sell a license to the TTS team, but we'll never know if they don't even ask...


In the video, he directly refers to having to potentially get a part time (or even full time) job to supplement lost TTS income if the Patron donations take a dip.


Their patreon earns more than 5 times the average UK salary and there's YouTube income on top of that. If they've been flushing that money down the toilet for the last 8 years, I don't have much sympathy.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 14:03:34


Post by: Tiennos


deano2099 wrote:
From a more general perspective, I disagree with the whole notion of protecting fictional universes in this way. I think people should outright be able to make their own Harry Potter or Star Wars stuff, use those characters, play in those universes. That's my personal belief. But it's not how the world works by a long shot, and so GW's actions don't seem unreasonable to me.
The problem is that you can't properly tailor the law to protect some IP but not some other. Imagine if the situation was reversed: some guy writes a novel that sells just enough copies to earn him a living, then some major entertainment company picks up that universe, makes it into a franchise raking in billions but doesn't pay the original author a single cent. Does that sound fair? At what point can you say that a fictional universe is big enough that it doesn't need to be protected anymore? There's no good answer to that question.

At its current rate, Alfabusa's patreon brings in over 200k$ per year. Sure, it's not much compared to GW's yearly income but it's more than enough to consider it a legitimate business. Note that this isn't an attack on Alfa. I don't care about GW's bottom line and I can admire someone making money from his own creative project like that. But the idea of the big bad company bullying the innocent fan doing stuff for free in his spare time is simply untrue. The situation is that of a small business making money from a much bigger's business work; if we were talking about physical products rather than IP, that would likely be called counterfeiting.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 14:15:21


Post by: Shadenuat


Chikout wrote:
Their patreon earns more than 5 times the average UK salary and there's YouTube income on top of that. If they've been flushing that money down the toilet for the last 8 years, I don't have much sympathy.

I see we're at counting others money stage. People sell things majority here would consider random garbage at cost of tens and hundreds of thousands of euros at art exhibitions, but guy making a silly parody getting stream of cash from fans is "troubling".

I am not the biggest fan of TTS since I'm not much into marines and all the horus stuff, but if he managed to get so popular, he earned every penny.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 14:17:16


Post by: infinite_array


Chikout wrote:
Catulle wrote:
 Tiennos wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:

The policy used to be "we're cool with fan animations provided you don't make money".
Between Patreon and potentially Youtube monetization, TTS is definitely not in the "don't make money" category, though. I'm not a lawyer, but I imagine it'd be hard to pass it all under fair use if it's someone's main source of income (I don't know if it actually is, but it looks like it).

Maybe GW would have agreed to sell a license to the TTS team, but we'll never know if they don't even ask...


In the video, he directly refers to having to potentially get a part time (or even full time) job to supplement lost TTS income if the Patron donations take a dip.


Their patreon earns more than 5 times the average UK salary and there's YouTube income on top of that. If they've been flushing that money down the toilet for the last 8 years, I don't have much sympathy.


It should be noted that all that money doesn't go directly to Alfabusa. Patreon takes a cut, and then the funds are used to pay all the people who work on the videos: script-writers, voiceworkers, audio-editors, etc.

If he needs to get another job to supplement lost Patreon income, then the divvied up amounts aren't exactly that much. It also means that all of the people who were getting paid from the projects are also affected.

Going by the credits, it looks like there's at least 15-20 individuals all providing content for the project. It's not likely that they're all getting paid the same amount, but even so, that's a lot of ways to split the Patreon funds.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 14:20:12


Post by: Chikout


 Shadenuat wrote:
Chikout wrote:
Their patreon earns more than 5 times the average UK salary and there's YouTube income on top of that. If they've been flushing that money down the toilet for the last 8 years, I don't have much sympathy.

I see we're at counting others money stage. People sell things majority here would consider random garbage at cost of tens and hundreds of thousands of euros at art exhibitions, but guy making a silly parody getting stream of cash from fans is "troubling".
I am not the biggest fan of TTS since I'm not much into marines and all the horus stuff, but if he managed to get so popular, he earned every penny.


You're misquoting me. I said GW paying low wages was troubling.
I don't begrudge them making the money they did, but painting themselves as the little guy when they earn substantially more than most people is a little unnecessary.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 14:22:37


Post by: Plant


For everyone who is joining the boycott, can you please keep it up until I get a copy of the new kill team?


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 14:24:41


Post by: nels1031


 Plant wrote:
For everyone who is joining the boycott, can you please keep it up until I get a copy of the new kill team?


Or at least boycott the Ork terrain for me!


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 14:28:12


Post by: MaxT


 DarkStarSabre wrote:


To be quite honest, that alone is a statement to how vague and threatening their IP rule changes are.


They didn’t change IP rules. IP law only gets changed by governments, not businesses. GW have had the same IP rights for years, and will have the same rights even if they delete their website tomorrow. Other businesses (patreon and YT income = you’re a business) have always been under the potential of a C&D or other legal proceedings.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 14:37:16


Post by: ListenToMeWarriors


The boycott is what it is. People will spend their hobby dollar (or insert local currency here) on whatever they want. I don't see any point belittling those that either do or do not support it. Will it make a difference? I doubt it, but time will tell. The thing is the practices that some people find troubling at GW, with the exception of being the dominant force in the industry issues, will undoubtedly be being repeated at other places as well. As with most social media driven campaigns this will all probably be forgotten in a matter of weeks.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 14:58:32


Post by: MaxT


ListenToMeWarriors wrote:
The boycott is what it is. People will spend their hobby dollar (or insert local currency here) on whatever they want. I don't see any point belittling those that either do or do not support it. Will it make a difference? I doubt it, but time will tell. The thing is the practices that some people find troubling at GW, with the exception of being the dominant force in the industry issues, will undoubtedly be being repeated at other places as well. As with most social media driven campaigns this will all probably be forgotten in a matter of weeks.


Pretty sure most of social media were already "boycotting" GW because they didn't renew the contract of some BL author a while ago. Unless they just said that for the likes/retweets/whatever, and then just carried on buying shiny toys.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 15:04:05


Post by: Gert


If you're referring to Thomas Parrot that isn't what happened. He discussed 40k's fascism problem on Twitter and was fired because an "investor" complained about him having the discussion. It might have been in Parrot's contract that he couldn't badmouth GW but from what I read of said discussion GW wasn't mentioned. That the event came off the back of the "You Will Not Be Missed" thing was a contributing factor.
After being fired Parrot's marriage collapsed and then he disappeared off of social media and AFAIK hasn't been heard from since. GW isn't responsible for the last bit but there was intense discussion about whether or not the firing was legal/morally right and the "investor" part got a lot of people confused as to what exactly an "investor" was and how much power they had.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 15:25:36


Post by: Mentlegen324


 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Important information from the video, though : GW has actually done nothing to the channel nor contacted the creator, and the creator hasn't contacted GW either.

He decided to do that on his own. He simply read the updated rules on GW's website and gave up. That's it.

I watched the full video and I don't really understand why it's so long just for that...oh, right. It's a youtube video.

Predictable how people are immediately raging about GW while GW...did nothing to him specifically. That guy is solely the only one responsible of his decision, here.


To be quite honest, that alone is a statement to how vague and threatening their IP rule changes are.




Copyright law means that the things covered in the document were protected regardless of them having written this.

Their previous IP policy article said fan sites and stories were allowed, but you need a license for games, apps, movies and "anything else" that uses their IP - - the very same stuff that the new version does with saying you need a license. Animations were already covered under that.

That same policy also included all the other stuff it says, so all that's happened is is a re-wording.

The re-wording comes across as harsher and less friendly...yet that applies to both the guidelines and the infringement-related stuff. It's a shortened version with clearer language, not something where they decided to make it sound more scary. Things have been split up into their own lines to spread them out rather than huge paragraphs with unnecessary length.

Neither have they acted aggresively towards anyone that we know of. No one has been threatened or sued or C&D. They've talked to animators who infringed on their IP and offered them a job instead of doing any of those things they were well within their rights to do, and all indication that we've had from those that refused is that GW were perfectly reasonable.

So if the law meant this stuff was active anyway, they had a previous IP policy that said the very same things and therefore animations were already not allowed for at east half a decade....just where is the "vague and threatening IP rule change"?



If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 15:48:09


Post by: DominayTrix


TTS will be missed. It isn't what got me into the hobby, but I have quite a few purchases which are "lol this model was funny on the cartoon" type purchases. This is no different from piracy. People pirated music because buying CDs was awful. People make money off fan content because the official content largely sucks. Horrendous quality control on video games, limited (preview trailers are cool but short) or terrible official animations. (Ultramarines movie) GW hiring/acquiring talent has also been poorly executed as seen by Sodaz being stuck in hiring limbo for too long. They shut down the best army builder at the start of 8th, and the app is still a dumpster fire so people use battlescribe. Sure, GW is absolutely in their legal right to be as heavy handed as they want, but being heavy handed with things people are passionate about is tone deaf at best. Personally, I am not going to boycott them over IP enforcement, but the lack of updates to CSM/Tau for 9th makes it a non-issue because I was painting my backlog and 3D printing terrain anyways. Just disappointed at a huge waste of potential.


If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 16:00:42


Post by: Jack Flask


DarkStarSabre wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Important information from the video, though : GW has actually done nothing to the channel nor contacted the creator, and the creator hasn't contacted GW either.

He decided to do that on his own. He simply read the updated rules on GW's website and gave up. That's it.

I watched the full video and I don't really understand why it's so long just for that...oh, right. It's a youtube video.

Predictable how people are immediately raging about GW while GW...did nothing to him specifically. That guy is solely the only one responsible of his decision, here.


To be quite honest, that alone is a statement to how vague and threatening their IP rule changes are.

They are worded in such a way that creators simply don't feel safe, whether they're doing fan animations, parody, stickers etc for hobby streams or whatever.

IT's back to the draconian levels where GW literally sued Spot the Space Marine and tried to claim the words 'Space Marine'. Which went embarassingly awry for them as Starship Troopers was probably the first use of the term and it's also been used in the Alien franchise so I'm very much wondering how much GW would like to fight against those franchises - answer: not a lot.

The concern is that GW will once again resort to bully tactics, forcing smaller creators etc, into submission through sheer size and pressure. This is what happened to TTS - they decided to -not- take the risk despite effectively being protected by fair use laws regarding parody.


No the problem is that both a large swath of the community, and even Alfabusa to an extent, are being dishonest. I have yet to see anybody show a incident after this "change" to GW's IP policy (this has always been legally within GW's power and their statement has 0 impact on that) where someone has been forced to take their work down either due to threat or DMCA by GW.

Syama Pederson took a job with GW and agreed to move Astartes from Youtube to Warhammer Community.

Richard Boylan took a job with GW and is working on Angels of Death (I assume based on his channel post looking for animators). Helsreach is still up on his Youtube probably because GW legally can't host it on WarCom (since a lot of the early assets were ripped from various 40k games which, while GW owns the conceptual rights, they don't own the rights to the actual 3D assets and it was made in SFM).

SODAZ was offered a job by GW and agreed to remove his videos pending a future announcement on WarCom. Then people harassed him so badly that it made him decide not to take the deal and turn away from 40k completely.

Tyler Portoghese, who made the animation for The Last Church, took down his animation willingly after GW contacted him with a job offer for a future project and he even says that it's possible that his original animation might find its way onto WarCom eventually.

AbsolutelyNothing was offered a job with GW, he turned it down. His videos are all still up on his channel. What changed is that Youtube demonetized his videos and Patreon pulled his account because both were profiting off of his 40k content. He has even stated that he will continue to make content independently because he wants to and he's a college student with free time.


Alfabusa is currently collecting 18k a month via his Patreon. That's not fan work at that point, it's a job. He has also outright refused to even try contacting GW about an agreement. The "purity of the content" seemingly has much less to do with this than the money involved.


Shadenuat wrote:
deano2099 wrote:
I remember in the 90s "fan works" meant stuff people did for fun in their spare time.

It's called progress. You couldn't just pick up a free engine, mess around with it and make a working playable computer game before either, but now you can.
The level of engagement people could get into with anything grown more and more, there was time when you couldn't buy paints and had to grind them in a workshop slaving off for a master, now you can make anything you want and share with a few button clicks. There were little animation assist tools before and animators did everything by hand, now there are.
Some studios react to this differently, TIE Fighter has 12 mln views, you can watch it for free; partly because Star Wars is now so big and ingrained into culture it's hard for one person to hold it in a cage forever.


No, you can watch Tie Fighter right now (as well as a bunch of other Star Wars fan films and animations) because they didn't try to build their fan work into a bootleg 6 figure income salary.

Also, everything you mention about technology improving and making independent works easier to create is exactly the reason why IP laws are still so relevant. Because compared to the past it is now cheaper and easier than ever before in history for someone to make a piece of media as long as they have a modicum of skill and enough time.

Take a step away from GW for a second and ask, "what if this was some small time author that had their book adapted into a youtube series that started raking in a 6 figure salary?".
Is that fair to the author? Sure it might raise awareness of their books but what about the author licensing out their work for an official series, which now has to compete with a popular established depiction? What if that youtube series takes creative liberties with the story that the community adopt as convention which essentially hijack the IP from it's author?

Most of these aren't even hypothetical.
  • The Game of Thrones HBO series was officially licensed and yet the directors by the end of it stopped following Martin's work to do what they wanted after growing arrogant based on the early success of the show. Success it turned out that was largely based on the quality of Martin's writing.

  • Starship Troopers, despite the book still being quite well known, is more often then not referenced in relation to the licensed 1997 film which has an entirely different message and purpose compared to the original.

  • And if we want to return to Text-to-Speech for a second, some of the depictions of certain characters (like Magnus and mustache Dorn) are so popular in the community that it led to people exclaiming actual disappointment upon seeing the official depictions of those characters.


  • I'm not here defending GW out of some misplaced loyalty to an economic entity, but if people want to discuss this honestly then you don't get to cherry pick who gets to be defended and when. If people legitimately want IP laws gone or weakened to the point of near irrelevance then that's their prerogative, but it's not going to be the glorious liberation they think it will be.

    Shadenuat wrote:Time to begin selling licenses for fanart and animation and then stream best stuff made by fans monthly on your social media and YouTube channel.

    This is literally what GW is doing though. The artist who does the graphics for GW's website was scouted from Adepticon. I remember meeting her at the booth she ran and getting a free coloring book. All of the 40k video creators of note have been approached by GW and offered jobs. The only consequence for turning it down being that you lose that source of revenue which under law you shouldn't have anyway. Any related content was either left in place, rehosted on WarCom, or taken down volitionally by it's creator as per their own statement.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 16:45:57


    Post by: Shadenuat


    I can read grey letters just as well as orange ones, no problems.

     Jack Flask wrote:
    This is literally what GW is doing though.

    What GW has done, is removed an option to create and draw from talent pool completely. Technically, you shouldn't make fan animations anymore, even if you don't monetize them.

    Also, I do not believe that any artist under Daddy would make same or better content as if they were free and could fully realise their Vision. Nothing from GW came close to Astartes, because that one was made in such circumstances.

    What happens if fans do better than you? Adapt. Whoever adapts business model to also implementing what fans want would be a long term winner.

    I understand, legal matters, IP, etc. What I don't understand is why should we care, or I care. We've had something we liked, made by other fans. As fans, our whole deal must be demanding more of what we like and protecting it from being taken away. Why all the knee bending, counting others money, and fear of the Law, I don't get it at all. Our job is just to Demand. But I am a simple person.

    you can watch Tie Fighter right now (as well as a bunch of other Star Wars fan films and animations) because they didn't try to build their fan work into a bootleg 6 figure income salary

    https://www.patreon.com/otaking77077

    people legitimately want IP laws gone or weakened to the point of near irrelevance

    I am not a master of lawl (any, and even more British), but surely a way that can keep talent coming, videos watched, IP safe and NOT pissing fans off can exist. UK is such a civilized nation, it can figure it out.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 16:48:16


    Post by: a_typical_hero



    Exalted for spitting straight facts.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 17:03:51


    Post by: Mentlegen324


     Shadenuat wrote:
    I can read grey letters just as well as orange ones, no problems.

     Jack Flask wrote:
    This is literally what GW is doing though.

    What GW has done, is removed an option to create and draw from talent pool completely. Technically, you shouldn't make fan animations anymore, even if you don't monetize them.



    No, they have not. Read the previous version of the guidelines. The same things are said - you need a license to make things and it even says that's regardless of if you monetize them or not. That has not changed.

    Here's the quote:

    If you think you have a winning idea and want to make a video game, an app, some merchandise, a movie or anything else that you will be distributing (either for free or at a cost) using Games Workshop’s IP then you need permission in the form of a license from Games Workshop.


    That covers animations too, either as "movies" or "anything else". Saying you need a license now because you are not allowed because you don't have the copyright has been their stance for at least half a decade. the only things the article says you're allowed are fan sites and stories even, just like the updated version that people are complaining about here does despite them both saying the same things.

    The rules are the same now as they were then.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 17:14:40


    Post by: Shadenuat


    Pretty sure they were changed exactly to acommodate for latest trends. "Movie" and "distribution" have a specific connotation to it, as in, full scale motion pictures and selling product in a traditional way (as opposed to rising non-traditional ways of monetization).


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 17:21:59


    Post by: yukishiro1


     frankelee wrote:
    yukishiro1 wrote:
     frankelee wrote:
    While the protests over shutting the animation channels has definitely reached some big names like Valrak, people's general unwillingness to understand the situation means they can flail around with videos and online petitions all the want, nothing will change. And I also don't look for GW to put out any sort of statement on the matter as all that will do is add fuel to the fire.

    Every fan I've seen complaining about this shows a simple (non-legal, non-technical, non-business) understanding of the situation at best, and I don't say that to diminish them, but rather to note GW's actions all stem from legal, technical, and business facts and pressures. The problem even with a big boycott movement is that GW's not taking these actions as some personal caprice, they can't let people use their IPs in this way now, no matter what. Even if GW had to find some way to break the boycott and appease fans, the answer still couldn't be 'change their minds and let these animators keep their operations going.'

    As I mentioned earlier I am interested to see if there is indeed a huge backlash, as the animation sub-community for 40K is something I barely knew even existed before now.


    And yet GW let them do it for years and years, and not only did the sky not fall, but GW did better than they've ever done before.

    But I'm sure anybody who challenges your supposedly superior understanding is just simple. That's very convincing. Not quite as convincing as the guy who stopped by just to tell everyone they were wrong and didn't understand how anything worked, but we can't all be that legendarily persuasive.


    You come here to persuade people? I couldn't care less, I just like filling computer down time with idle discussion. And yes, their understanding of it is simple, they go on about the situation in a sort of "colloquial" way, as if legal matters for big companies were the same as working out an issue between neighbors. Take your comment that they've let the animations go for years and the sky didn't fall. Nice, simple, farm logic to it. Wouldn't work in court, wouldn't work in a board room. My point was and is, all the angry consumers are on a different level of reality than Games Workshop is. But stop buying their products, I don't mind, I have.


    You come here to condescend to people and tell them they're wrong, simple, and "on a different level of reality" and then not explain yourself? I guess that's your right, but it's a deeply unpleasant way to interact with people, as well as being incredibly hypocritical. "You hoi polloi couldn't possibly understand the workings of more sophisticated people like me or GW, so I'll just call you simple instead" displays exactly the "simple" attitude towards the subject you are supposedly decrying. For all your posturing about who's simple and who's sophisticated and "different levels of reality," you haven't demonstrated any understanding of the issue yourself - all you've done is say that people other people are simple. This is a terribly unconvincing way to debate, and is usually the province of people who don't actually have any idea what they're talking about.

    So enlighten us, the unwashed, simple masses on the farm: why did GW "have" to take these particular steps at this particular time?



    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 17:25:31


    Post by: Mentlegen324


     Shadenuat wrote:
    Pretty sure they were changed exactly to acommodate for latest trends. "Movie" and "distribution" have a specific connotation to it, as in, full scale motion pictures and selling product in a traditional way (as opposed to rising non-traditional ways of monetization).


    No, it is not different.

    Even if you disagree with an animation counting as a movie, then it comes under the "anything else" part of the line.

    Uploading a movie or animation to youtube for example, is distributing it.

    It covers animations.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 17:29:07


    Post by: Shadenuat


     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    Uploading a movie or animation to youtube for example, is distributing it.

    Is it? By the letter of Lawl?

    If it's "anything" then pictures are also out of the question.

    I personally, don't even understand difference between fanart and small animation. Is a 5 second gif animation allowed? If not, why? What's the problem specifically with a short animation as compared to just a still picture? It's just a series of pictures.

    So the only logical conclusion I can draw is that GW wants a particular segment of art for themselves 100% because they know how much important that part is and because they can easily grab that slice of the pie, using, if needed, red utub buttons/strikes etc.

    (Obviously they also updated it all to be more direct, since "money can't change hands" and other simple speech doesn't suit a document of rules.)


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 17:32:22


    Post by: yukishiro1


    It doesn't really matter what those guidelines say except as a way to try to intimidate people into doing what GW wants. GW can put whatever it wants on its website, it has no actual legal authority. Many things in that statement of IP rights blatantly contradict the law and could never be enforced (in court, on youtube or patreon it doesn't matter that your infringement claim is totally bogus, as long as you're a big company YT and Patreon will happily do your bidding), which GW knows perfectly well - they post it because they hope that you don't know that, and therefore will think their guidelines are actually an accurate summary of the law.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 17:33:00


    Post by: Turnip Jedi


     Plant wrote:
    For everyone who is joining the boycott, can you please keep it up until I get a copy of the new kill team?


    Problem is gamer boycotts usually come down to "company x has done something shifty, im only buying half of what I planned to"


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 17:33:49


    Post by: Shadenuat


    yukishiro1 wrote:
    It doesn't really matter what those guidelines say except as a way to try to intimidate people

    Yeah, and now fans police themselves and would probably be drawn to making stuff about something else. An apt tactic based on fear; very healthy for community.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 17:36:54


    Post by: Mentlegen324


     Shadenuat wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    Uploading a movie or animation to youtube for example, is distributing it.

    Is it? By the letter of Lawl?


    Are you not aware of the concept of film distribution and the like? Uploading to a media platform to be viewed by others is distribution.


    If it's "anything" then pictures are also out of the question.


    Yes, they're out of the question, of course they are. You cannot distribute their copyrighted pictures without permission. What they do allow however is completely fan-made images. Have you not read the articles? That seems like a bit of a disingenuous thing to say, if you actually have.


    yukishiro1 wrote:
    Many things in that statement of IP rights blatantly contradict the law and could never be enforced (in court, on youtube or patreon it doesn't matter that your infringement claim is totally bogus, as long as you're a big company YT and Patreon will happily do your bidding), which GW knows perfectly well - they post it because they hope that you don't know that, and therefore will think their guidelines are actually an accurate summary of the law.



    ...Such as? Just what do you think that article says that isn't allowed under copyright law? There's nothing in those articles that goes against what copyright law says, it's the protections it allows in the first place.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 17:51:14


    Post by: Shadenuat


     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    Yes, they're out of the question, of course they are. You cannot distribute their copyrighted pictures without permission. What they do allow however is completely fan-made images.

    No, I meant that old rules seemed to specifically not allow selling fan art; but didn't allow actually making it, and if you did, it belonged to GW anyway, just as "(derivative) miniatures they didn't even make yet".


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 17:57:35


    Post by: JWBS


    Removed - Rule #1


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 18:02:05


    Post by: Mentlegen324


     Shadenuat wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    Yes, they're out of the question, of course they are. You cannot distribute their copyrighted pictures without permission. What they do allow however is completely fan-made images.

    No, I meant that old rules seemed to specifically not allow selling fan art; but didn't allow actually making it, and if you did, it belonged to GW anyway, just as "(derivative) miniatures they didn't even make yet".


    The article outright says you're allowed to make fan images as long as you don't sell them.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 18:05:19


    Post by: BobtheInquisitor


     Turnip Jedi wrote:
     Plant wrote:
    For everyone who is joining the boycott, can you please keep it up until I get a copy of the new kill team?


    Problem is gamer boycotts usually come down to "company x has done something shifty, im only buying half of what I planned to"


    I saw a discussion on another board that basically boils down to everyone planning to boycott GW over this was probably already boycotting GW, which is certainly true for me. However, public shaming of companies, as well as hitting critical mass on YouTube creators revolting, might have a more pronounced effect, maybe. I doubt GW will lose more than a few percentage points of profit n the next year, however if they make some boneheaded decisions in terms of price hikes or TOW’s release, something that affects current customers, then the underlying community discontent from this and other recent events could have a multiplier effect for them as we saw in the Kirby years. Maybe.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 18:05:52


    Post by: Grimtuff


     Mentlegen324 wrote:


    No, they have not. Read the previous version of the guidelines. The same things are said - you need a license to make things and it even says that's regardless of if you monetize them or not. That has not changed.



    Except they clearly have changed. The original language in that link you provide uses "ask, don't tell" with them calling your bluff and asking you not to use their IP without permission. "Please do not..." etc. The current one straight up orders you ("But these must...") not to use them in much more threatening terms. Those are, quite literally not the same things being said.

    The word "please" appears 15 times in the page you linked. It appears twice in the current one.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 18:06:36


    Post by: frankelee


    yukishiro1 wrote:

    You come here to condescend to people and tell them they're wrong, simple, and "on a different level of reality" and then not explain yourself? I guess that's your right, but it's a deeply unpleasant way to interact with people, as well as being incredibly hypocritical. "You hoi polloi couldn't possibly understand the workings of more sophisticated people like me or GW, so I'll just call you simple instead" displays exactly the "simple" attitude towards the subject you are supposedly decrying. For all your posturing about who's simple and who's sophisticated and "different levels of reality," you haven't demonstrated any understanding of the issue yourself - all you've done is say that people other people are simple. This is a terribly unconvincing way to debate, and is usually the province of people who don't actually have any idea what they're talking about.

    So enlighten us, the unwashed, simple masses on the farm: why did GW "have" to take these particular steps at this particular time?



    Let's get real, you're not debating with me or offended by what I said, you're angry at the way things are washing out back in the real world. You're not here to learn and you're not here to debate, you just want to argue because you're upset. And all I can tell you is, I'm sorry things aren't going the way you want them to. Thems are the breaks.

    I'd hope you know GW is coming out with a new streaming service featuring a slate of animated series, and I'd also hope you'd put two and two together to realize that's why "today is the day" for GW stamping out IP violators in this domain. That's what changed.

    If you want to do something about it, you'll have to talk to GW. They won't change just because you do, but that's at least a realistic avenue for addressing the situation. Warring on message boards isn't, I don't need to convince you of anything for GW to crush people unlawfully using their IP, and you can convince me of anything about the situation, and GW will still happily crush anyone unlawfully using their IP. We don't always get what we want, legal situations included, and I understand a lot of fans are not getting what they want here.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 18:20:13


    Post by: Mentlegen324


     Grimtuff wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:


    No, they have not. Read the previous version of the guidelines. The same things are said - you need a license to make things and it even says that's regardless of if you monetize them or not. That has not changed.



    Except they clearly have changed. The original language in that link you provide uses "ask, don't tell" with them calling your bluff and asking you not to use their IP without permission. "Please do not..." etc. The current one straight up orders you ("But these must...") not to use them in much more threatening terms. Those are, quite literally not the same things being said.

    The word "please" appears 15 times in the page you linked. It appears twice in the current one.


    My post was in reply to was a claim that they've suddenly "removed an option" that was there before, when no, that is not the case. The rules themselves have not changed. Fan animations were not allowed in the old version, either.

    What has changed is the wording of the article overall to shorten it and remove the unnecessary lengthy paragraphs. The actual rules there are the same as what was said before. The less friendly language applies to both sections, the guidelines and infringement, and instead is just part of the introduction paragraph - it just the result of that shortening.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 18:26:37


    Post by: kodos


     frankelee wrote:
    and I'd also hope you'd put two and two together to realize that's why "today is the day" for GW stamping out IP violators in this domain. That's what changed.

    of course this is the reason that started the latest wave of "letters" from GW

    as well a making a new show in the pre-Kirk timeframe was the reason CBS acted against Axanar

    yet for the legal situation, they were always on thin ice just being tolerated by the IP holders and nothing more (and those can change their mind from one day to another if it does not fit their business plans any more


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 18:51:09


    Post by: tneva82


     Shadenuat wrote:
    Pretty sure they were changed exactly to acommodate for latest trends. "Movie" and "distribution" have a specific connotation to it, as in, full scale motion pictures and selling product in a traditional way (as opposed to rising non-traditional ways of monetization).


    Well you are entitled to think so. Facts and laws disagree though


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 18:51:31


    Post by: yukishiro1


     frankelee wrote:

    Let's get real, you're not debating with me or offended by what I said, you're angry at the way things are washing out back in the real world. You're not here to learn and you're not here to debate, you just want to argue because you're upset. And all I can tell you is, I'm sorry things aren't going the way you want them to. Thems are the breaks.


    This is amazing projection. I have asked you to discuss the subject, you respond with insults while refusing to discuss the topic, while saying I'm the one here who isn't interested in the topic.

     frankelee wrote:

    I'd hope you know GW is coming out with a new streaming service featuring a slate of animated series, and I'd also hope you'd put two and two together to realize that's why "today is the day" for GW stamping out IP violators in this domain. That's what changed.


    Ah, so here we go: the supposed reason they "have" to do this is because they made a decision to do so. That's circular reasoning. Nothing GW has done here has been inevitable, nor was GW forced into any of it. GW has made a choice to step up enforcement of its IP. We can discuss that choice. But nobody forced them to, and they absolutely had the choice not to.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 18:56:19


    Post by: Shadenuat


    tneva82 wrote:
    Well you are entitled to think so. Facts and laws disagree though

    "Privileged to" would be even more awesome.

    Yes, the rules never allowed anything, but things were allowed, except now when suddenly they are double un-allowed.

    I feel like I'm in a madhouse.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 19:02:05


    Post by: yukishiro1


     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    ...Such as? Just what do you think that article says that isn't allowed under copyright law? There's nothing in those articles that goes against what copyright law says, it's the protections it allows in the first place.


    Well, for starters, the blanket prohibition on fan animations, what we're all talking about here? It is a completely inaccurate expression of copyright law to claim a blanket right to prohibit all fan animations and movies. This completely ignores the concept of fair use. It is flat-out wrong as a statement of their rights. They do not have the right to prohibit all fan animations and movies. We can discuss whether a particular fan animation or movie would qualify for a fair use exemption, but to blanket state that all such animations are violations of GW's IP rights is flat-out wrong.

    If you want a second example, they claim that fan sites must not post rules or stats from GW publications. This is also a truly laughable claim from a copyright point of view. Games Workshop doesn't have an enforceable IP right to enjoin you from posting the ballistic skill of an intercessor.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 19:07:14


    Post by: Mentlegen324


     Shadenuat wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Well you are entitled to think so. Facts and laws disagree though

    "Privileged to" would be even more awesome.

    Yes, the rules never allowed anything, but things were allowed, except now when suddenly they are double un-allowed.

    I feel like I'm in a madhouse.


    I don't get what is meant to be so hard to understand here.

    It allows the things it say are allowed. Fan images, sites, stories etc without making money on them.

    It doesn't allow the things it says aren't allowed. Games, app, movies, anything else that hasn't been allowed, regardless of if you make money off it or not.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 19:20:16


    Post by: BrianDavion


    Honestly I think what happened is GW went to recruit some of these fan animators, started looking at them in more detail as a result and discovered all of their youtube animations are monentized, and most of them have a patreon, once that was discovered they almost certinly thought that seemed odd, talked to their lawyers who said "yeah dude thats a copyright breach" and GW acted in turn, first they acted on the ones they contacted, letting any who declined their job offers know that they had to demonentize their video. and then they updated their rules to reflect the fact that an aweful lot of fan movie makers are making a profit and endangering their control of the IP


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 19:21:49


    Post by: RaptorusRex


    "Oh, GW hasn't done anything to make Alfabusa stop!"

    Well, no, but their policies have created a chilling effect. This is what everyone reasonable has been saying. Laying aside whether copyright law should be a thing or not, because you all know my positions on that, this is immoral. It is base intimidation.

    I thought better of Kirioth and the like, but their position on this is clearly an attempt to not rock the boat.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 19:27:06


    Post by: yukishiro1


    BrianDavion wrote:
    Honestly I think what happened is GW went to recruit some of these fan animators, started looking at them in more detail as a result and discovered all of their youtube animations are monentized, and most of them have a patreon, once that was discovered they almost certinly thought that seemed odd, talked to their lawyers who said "yeah dude thats a copyright breach" and GW acted in turn, first they acted on the ones they contacted, letting any who declined their job offers know that they had to demonentize their video. and then they updated their rules to reflect the fact that an aweful lot of fan movie makers are making a profit and endangering their control of the IP


    That is definitely not what happened. That's not how corporate decisions are made. The decision to create warhammer+ would have been made at least a year ago, and every single animator was approached not with a "come work for us!" offer but a "you are violating our IP, either come work for us or we'll shut you down" ultimatum - worded less bluntly than that, but every single person who has talked about it admitted there was both the carrot and the stick from the very start.

    GW had a plan here from the start.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 19:29:30


    Post by: Daedalus81


    Spoiler:
     Jack Flask wrote:
    DarkStarSabre wrote:
    Sarouan wrote:
    Important information from the video, though : GW has actually done nothing to the channel nor contacted the creator, and the creator hasn't contacted GW either.

    He decided to do that on his own. He simply read the updated rules on GW's website and gave up. That's it.

    I watched the full video and I don't really understand why it's so long just for that...oh, right. It's a youtube video.

    Predictable how people are immediately raging about GW while GW...did nothing to him specifically. That guy is solely the only one responsible of his decision, here.


    To be quite honest, that alone is a statement to how vague and threatening their IP rule changes are.

    They are worded in such a way that creators simply don't feel safe, whether they're doing fan animations, parody, stickers etc for hobby streams or whatever.

    IT's back to the draconian levels where GW literally sued Spot the Space Marine and tried to claim the words 'Space Marine'. Which went embarassingly awry for them as Starship Troopers was probably the first use of the term and it's also been used in the Alien franchise so I'm very much wondering how much GW would like to fight against those franchises - answer: not a lot.

    The concern is that GW will once again resort to bully tactics, forcing smaller creators etc, into submission through sheer size and pressure. This is what happened to TTS - they decided to -not- take the risk despite effectively being protected by fair use laws regarding parody.


    No the problem is that both a large swath of the community, and even Alfabusa to an extent, are being dishonest. I have yet to see anybody show a incident after this "change" to GW's IP policy (this has always been legally within GW's power and their statement has 0 impact on that) where someone has been forced to take their work down either due to threat or DMCA by GW.

    Syama Pederson took a job with GW and agreed to move Astartes from Youtube to Warhammer Community.

    Richard Boylan took a job with GW and is working on Angels of Death (I assume based on his channel post looking for animators). Helsreach is still up on his Youtube probably because GW legally can't host it on WarCom (since a lot of the early assets were ripped from various 40k games which, while GW owns the conceptual rights, they don't own the rights to the actual 3D assets and it was made in SFM).

    SODAZ was offered a job by GW and agreed to remove his videos pending a future announcement on WarCom. Then people harassed him so badly that it made him decide not to take the deal and turn away from 40k completely.

    Tyler Portoghese, who made the animation for The Last Church, took down his animation willingly after GW contacted him with a job offer for a future project and he even says that it's possible that his original animation might find its way onto WarCom eventually.

    AbsolutelyNothing was offered a job with GW, he turned it down. His videos are all still up on his channel. What changed is that Youtube demonetized his videos and Patreon pulled his account because both were profiting off of his 40k content. He has even stated that he will continue to make content independently because he wants to and he's a college student with free time.


    Alfabusa is currently collecting 18k a month via his Patreon. That's not fan work at that point, it's a job. He has also outright refused to even try contacting GW about an agreement. The "purity of the content" seemingly has much less to do with this than the money involved.


    Shadenuat wrote:
    deano2099 wrote:
    I remember in the 90s "fan works" meant stuff people did for fun in their spare time.

    It's called progress. You couldn't just pick up a free engine, mess around with it and make a working playable computer game before either, but now you can.
    The level of engagement people could get into with anything grown more and more, there was time when you couldn't buy paints and had to grind them in a workshop slaving off for a master, now you can make anything you want and share with a few button clicks. There were little animation assist tools before and animators did everything by hand, now there are.
    Some studios react to this differently, TIE Fighter has 12 mln views, you can watch it for free; partly because Star Wars is now so big and ingrained into culture it's hard for one person to hold it in a cage forever.


    No, you can watch Tie Fighter right now (as well as a bunch of other Star Wars fan films and animations) because they didn't try to build their fan work into a bootleg 6 figure income salary.

    Also, everything you mention about technology improving and making independent works easier to create is exactly the reason why IP laws are still so relevant. Because compared to the past it is now cheaper and easier than ever before in history for someone to make a piece of media as long as they have a modicum of skill and enough time.

    Take a step away from GW for a second and ask, "what if this was some small time author that had their book adapted into a youtube series that started raking in a 6 figure salary?".
    Is that fair to the author? Sure it might raise awareness of their books but what about the author licensing out their work for an official series, which now has to compete with a popular established depiction? What if that youtube series takes creative liberties with the story that the community adopt as convention which essentially hijack the IP from it's author?

    Most of these aren't even hypothetical.
  • The Game of Thrones HBO series was officially licensed and yet the directors by the end of it stopped following Martin's work to do what they wanted after growing arrogant based on the early success of the show. Success it turned out that was largely based on the quality of Martin's writing.

  • Starship Troopers, despite the book still being quite well known, is more often then not referenced in relation to the licensed 1997 film which has an entirely different message and purpose compared to the original.

  • And if we want to return to Text-to-Speech for a second, some of the depictions of certain characters (like Magnus and mustache Dorn) are so popular in the community that it led to people exclaiming actual disappointment upon seeing the official depictions of those characters.


  • I'm not here defending GW out of some misplaced loyalty to an economic entity, but if people want to discuss this honestly then you don't get to cherry pick who gets to be defended and when. If people legitimately want IP laws gone or weakened to the point of near irrelevance then that's their prerogative, but it's not going to be the glorious liberation they think it will be.

    Shadenuat wrote:Time to begin selling licenses for fanart and animation and then stream best stuff made by fans monthly on your social media and YouTube channel.

    This is literally what GW is doing though. The artist who does the graphics for GW's website was scouted from Adepticon. I remember meeting her at the booth she ran and getting a free coloring book. All of the 40k video creators of note have been approached by GW and offered jobs. The only consequence for turning it down being that you lose that source of revenue which under law you shouldn't have anyway. Any related content was either left in place, rehosted on WarCom, or taken down volitionally by it's creator as per their own statement.


    I support this post, because it's the most pragmatic, I think.

    In any case those who are upset have one action - convince people to not sign up for Warhammer+. I don't know that it will succeed, but not supporting GW financially is probably the only effective message you can send.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 19:34:18


    Post by: MonkeyBallistic


    Like most people, I’m going to boycott GW until the next time they release something I want to buy.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 19:34:34


    Post by: Mentlegen324


    yukishiro1 wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    ...Such as? Just what do you think that article says that isn't allowed under copyright law? There's nothing in those articles that goes against what copyright law says, it's the protections it allows in the first place.


    Well, for starters, the blanket prohibition on fan animations, what we're all talking about here? It is a completely inaccurate expression of copyright law to claim a blanket right to prohibit all fan animations and movies. This completely ignores the concept of fair use. It is flat-out wrong as a statement of their rights. They do not have the right to prohibit all fan animations and movies. We can discuss whether a particular fan animation or movie would qualify for a fair use exemption, but to blanket state that all such animations are violations of GW's IP rights is flat-out wrong.

    If you want a second example, they claim that fan sites must not post rules or stats from GW publications. This is also a truly laughable claim from a copyright point of view. Games Workshop doesn't have an enforceable IP right to enjoin you from posting the ballistic skill of an intercessor.


    The first one I can understand being unhappy with the article not saying things like parodies are allowed, when it really should. However, that is not an issue exclusive to this article - the previous version that has been in place for at least half a decade did not say that, either. They haven't suddenly decided to say that stuff isn't allowed, they've said you need a license for the past 6 years. In general though they are right, you cannot make animations, games etc using their IP without a license.

    The second point though, those are guidelines for how to behave in an acceptable manner with their IP, it's absurd to try and make it out that "oh you posted a stat, now you'll be sued" as if that's all it takes. Especially when, again, asking not to post their copyrighted material is something they've said for the past 6 years.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 19:35:38


    Post by: yukishiro1


     Daedalus81 wrote:
    I don't know that it will succeed, but not supporting GW financially is probably the only effective message you can send.


    Well, I mean, that's demonstrably not true. GW has got an author in the Guardian to post not one but two different articles now aimed at blowing back against the low pay / maternity leave discrimination allegations that surfaced on twitter. It's only been a couple weeks, far too early to say whether there has been any actual financial backlash against them. But they've seen the need to seed the papers with favorable versions of the story. That demonstrates concern.

    I have no doubt GW's PR team is carefully watching this whole thing to see how it's going to shake out, just like they're carefully watching the pay claim situation. This isn't the Kirby-era GW that explicitly dismissed social media and the importance of cultivating a good image. Whether that means GW is going to do anything I don't know, but the suggestion that the only way to send a message is financially is belied by GW's actual actions.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 19:35:52


    Post by: BrianDavion


     MonkeyBallistic wrote:
    Like most people, I’m going to boycott GW until the next time they release something I want to buy.


    ... thats not a boycott, that's just standard consumer activity


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 19:37:41


    Post by: yukishiro1


    BrianDavion wrote:

    IP law requires GW to defend their lisence or they lose it. don't like it? write to your congressman.


    I corrected you on this previously. This is absolutely not true. Please stop repeating this verifiably wrong assertion. Whether you have enforced your copyright rights has zero impact on your future ability to enforce. Trademarks must only be enforced to stop the terms becoming generic - someone creating works set in your own universe using your trademarked terms is not diluting the trademark, if anything they are strengthening it.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    yukishiro1 wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    ...Such as? Just what do you think that article says that isn't allowed under copyright law? There's nothing in those articles that goes against what copyright law says, it's the protections it allows in the first place.


    Well, for starters, the blanket prohibition on fan animations, what we're all talking about here? It is a completely inaccurate expression of copyright law to claim a blanket right to prohibit all fan animations and movies. This completely ignores the concept of fair use. It is flat-out wrong as a statement of their rights. They do not have the right to prohibit all fan animations and movies. We can discuss whether a particular fan animation or movie would qualify for a fair use exemption, but to blanket state that all such animations are violations of GW's IP rights is flat-out wrong.

    If you want a second example, they claim that fan sites must not post rules or stats from GW publications. This is also a truly laughable claim from a copyright point of view. Games Workshop doesn't have an enforceable IP right to enjoin you from posting the ballistic skill of an intercessor.


    The first one I can understand being unhappy with the article not saying things like parodies are allowed, when it really should. However, that is not an issue exclusive to this article - the previous version that has been in place for at least half a decade did not say that, either. They haven't suddenly decided to say that stuff isn't allowed, they've said you need a license for the past 6 years. In general though they are right, you cannot make animations, games etc using their IP without a license.

    The second point though, those are guidelines for how to behave in an acceptable manner with their IP, it's absurd to try and make it out that "oh you posted a stat, now you'll be sued" as if that's all it takes. Especially when, again, asking not to post their copyrighted material is something they've said for the past 6 years.


    You just changed the conversation. You asked what in there is inconsistent with copyright law. I gave you two examples. Now you're saying "yeah, but that doesn't mean they're actually going to sue." But that was my whole point: they claim you are not allowed to do a wide range of things here that you are, in fact, completely allowed to do, and that GW would never try to sue you over because they know there is zero chance they would win.

    Hence my claim: those guidelines dramatically misstate the extent of the IP rights GW actually has under the law.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    And here's the most ridiculous example of all:

    According to GW, fan sites must "not be prejudicial to the goodwill, reputation or integrity of Games Workshop or its intellectual property."

    The idea that Games Workshop has any right to force fan sites to not say bad things about GW is so far beyond absurd that we're honestly into 1984 land.

    Those guidelines are a statement of what Games Workshop wishes the law was, and what Games Workshop wants you to think the law is. Games Workshop is well aware that they are not reflective of what the law actually is, but they would be happy if they could fool you into thinking it is.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 19:58:07


    Post by: Shadenuat


    yukishiro1 wrote:
    The idea that Games Workshop has any right to force fan sites to not say bad things about GW is so far beyond absurd that we're honestly into 1984 land

    And if you do, "good riddance"


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:17:33


    Post by: BaronIveagh


     Jack Flask wrote:

    No the problem is that both a large swath of the community, and even Alfabusa to an extent, are being dishonest. I have yet to see anybody show a incident after this "change" to GW's IP policy (this has always been legally within GW's power and their statement has 0 impact on that) where someone has been forced to take their work down either due to threat or DMCA by GW.


    And you won't, not because GW won't do it, but because they'll use Youtube and Patreon as cut outs so they don't have to take the heat.

    As far as things being legal, there are plenty of things that it's legal to do that are generally frowned on. Just because something is legal does not mean there should not be repercussions from having done it.

     Jack Flask wrote:

    Alfabusa is currently collecting 18k a month via his Patreon. That's not fan work at that point, it's a job. He has also outright refused to even try contacting GW about an agreement. The "purity of the content" seemingly has much less to do with this than the money involved.


    That's his legal right. Under the law, as stands in the US and UK, his parody is legally protected. He could make a billion dollars a month on it and it would still be protected. The issue is, and you seem to be in utter denial of it, that GW has a long history of not particularly giving a gak what the law actually says, and a long track record of indulging in what might be called 'vexatious litigation'.

     Jack Flask wrote:

    No, you can watch Tie Fighter right now (as well as a bunch of other Star Wars fan films and animations) because they didn't try to build their fan work into a bootleg 6 figure income salary.


    Achem;

    https://www.patreon.com/otaking77077


     Jack Flask wrote:

    [b]I'm not here defending GW out of some misplaced loyalty to an economic entity, but if people want to discuss this honestly then you don't get to cherry pick who gets to be defended and when.


    Hold on a sec, I want you all note of this here statement he makes.

     Jack Flask wrote:

    This is literally what GW is doing though. The artist who does the graphics for GW's website was scouted from Adepticon. I remember meeting her at the booth she ran and getting a free coloring book. All of the 40k video creators of note have been approached by GW and offered jobs. The only consequence for turning it down being that you lose that source of revenue which under law you shouldn't have anyway.


    Unless you legally should. I'm sorry, btw, but don't lecture us about honesty and then proceed to the sort of dishonest argument you just did.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    The first one I can understand being unhappy with the article not saying things like parodies are allowed, when it really should. However, that is not an issue exclusive to this article - the previous version that has been in place for at least half a decade did not say that, either. They haven't suddenly decided to say that stuff isn't allowed, they've said you need a license for the past 6 years. In general though they are right, you cannot make animations, games etc using their IP without a license.


    Or review their products, or any other form of fair use. Which is, the problem. GW refuse to acknowledge that fair use 'exists'.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:25:05


    Post by: yukishiro1


    It's arguable whether his stuff is protected as parody, I don't think it's a legal slam dunk one way or the other; fair use claims almost never are. There's quite a range of stuff on his channel too, it's very conceivable that some of it would be found to be protected and some of it not, if it ever went to court.

    That said: that's the whole point. There's a very plausible argument that what he is doing is legal. And his making money from it is irrelevant here, as the fair use case isn't based on it being non-commercial.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:36:00


    Post by: Shadenuat


    yukishiro1 wrote:
    There's a very plausible argument that what he is doing is legal

    But it doesn't matter, because he is smaller than the opponent, and thus most likely it would be impossible for him to protect himself.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:40:36


    Post by: Laughing Man


     Shadenuat wrote:
    yukishiro1 wrote:
    There's a very plausible argument that what he is doing is legal

    But it doesn't matter, because he is smaller than the opponent, and thus most likely it would be impossible for him to protect himself.

    Which is also largely irrelevant, as his opponent hasn't actually asked him to do anything for the last eight years, and hasn't really shown any sign they're about to change.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:42:16


    Post by: Shadenuat


    Aside from shooting everyone else in the room.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:42:53


    Post by: BaronIveagh


     Laughing Man wrote:

    Which is also largely irrelevant, as his opponent hasn't actually asked him to do anything for the last eight years, and hasn't really shown any sign they're about to change.


    Other than, you know, specifically calling out what he was doing as something they're going to crack down on.



    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:43:55


    Post by: Mentlegen324


     BaronIveagh wrote:
     Laughing Man wrote:

    Which is also largely irrelevant, as his opponent hasn't actually asked him to do anything for the last eight years, and hasn't really shown any sign they're about to change.


    Other than, you know, specifically calling out what he was doing as something they're going to crack down on.


    Except, you know, the previous version of the guidelines that were there for over half a decade also said the same thing about needing a license.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:45:30


    Post by: BaronIveagh


     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    Except, you know, the previous version of the guidelines that were there for over half a decade also said the same thing about needing a license.


    Specifically? Or did it say 'any other'?


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:45:32


    Post by: Overread


     Shadenuat wrote:
    Aside from shooting everyone else in the room.


    Aside from offering everyone else in the room the choice of a contract or demonetizing their work.


    Seriously the "shooting" analogy doesn't work here people


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:47:11


    Post by: BaronIveagh


     Overread wrote:

    Aside from offering everyone else in the room the choice of a contract or demonetizing their work.

    Seriously the "shooting" analogy doesn't work here people


    It'd be better to say 'break their legs' instead. Better Mob equivalent.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:47:46


    Post by: Arachnofiend


    People being able to do whatever the hell they want (including make an income) with fanworks is a good thing for communities, actually. The fact that anyone actually defends the further corporatization of the internet is proof of the cyberpunk hell world we live in.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:48:06


    Post by: A Town Called Malus


     Overread wrote:
     Shadenuat wrote:
    Aside from shooting everyone else in the room.


    Aside from offering everyone else in the room the choice of a contract or demonetizing their work.


    Seriously the "shooting" analogy doesn't work here people


    Taking away someone's livelihood satisfies the analogy, I think.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:48:44


    Post by: Mentlegen324


     BaronIveagh wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    Except, you know, the previous version of the guidelines that were there for over half a decade also said the same thing about needing a license.


    Specifically? Or did it say 'any other'?


    Are you trying to say that the line "anything else that you will be distributing using Games Workshop’s IP" in a context involving things that are similar to " a video game, an app, some merchandise, a movie" wouldn't have animations coming under "anything else"?


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:52:00


    Post by: BaronIveagh


     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    Are you trying to say that with the line "anything else that you will be distributing using Games Workshop’s IP" in a context involving things that are similar to " a video game, an app, some merchandise, a movie" wouldn't have animations coming under "anything else"?


    I'm saying that there's a degree of implied threat from going from a general statement like that to specifically calling out something.

    Think the difference between 'Jimmy, deal with the Trash' and 'Jimmy, shoot this fether in the head'.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:55:07


    Post by: yukishiro1


    Acting like it's irrelevant that GW has recently been going around giving people similar to him a "work for us or get shut down" ultimatum is truly strange.

    I mean if you want to argue it was premature of him to do this before GW actually brought down the hammer that's a fine argument to make. But to act like there hasn't been a significant change in GW's approach in the last couple months is to willfully deny reality.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:58:37


    Post by: MonkeyBallistic


    BrianDavion wrote:
     MonkeyBallistic wrote:
    Like most people, I’m going to boycott GW until the next time they release something I want to buy.


    ... thats not a boycott, that's just standard consumer activity


    Yeah …


    … that was the joke


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 20:59:53


    Post by: Shadenuat


     BaronIveagh wrote:
    It'd be better to say 'break their legs' instead. Better Mob equivalent.

    Shoot their legs then? Very Dakka. Ugh, and one admin said I am a warrior-poet of Eldar community. Can't even keep up with you guys.

    yukishiro1 wrote:
    I mean if you want to argue it was premature of him to do this before GW actually brought down the hammer that's a fine argument to make.

    It's probably legally easier to stop than wait for "choice" or C&D letter or some such. He has a kid, he doesn't need all that gak, I would prefer him standing up for his work but I fully empathize.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 21:02:23


    Post by: yukishiro1


    I dunno, if I was raking in 18k a month from patreon I'd probably keep doing it until I got an actual letter from GW, especially if I had a much better case for legality than most animators do.

    But I understand his decision, and the idea that it was just some decision he made freely without any pressure from seeing the guy to the left and the guy to the right both get "work for us or be closed down" ultimatums is beyond silly.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 21:02:32


    Post by: Gert


    "Anything else" is super vague and I think thats the point people are getting at. What happens if you name your pet after a Warhammer character, set up a social media account then monetise that account? Can GW legally sue you? Think of the most out-there reason of how someone could end up monetising GW content and that technically could apply. "Anything else" wouldn't hold up in a court.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 21:04:09


    Post by: yukishiro1


    Very little of those guidelines would hold up in court. But GW wants to make you think it would, and a lot of it would be enforced by youtube and patreon even if it isn't legally enforceable, because they will shut down almost anything if they get a complaint from a big company about it, regardless of the merits.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 21:06:54


    Post by: Mentlegen324


    yukishiro1 wrote:
    Very little of those guidelines would hold up in court.


    Such as? Other than situations involving the obvious parody/review/abstract quotation etc fair dealing exceptions it doesn't mention.

     Gert wrote:
    "Anything else" is super vague and I think thats the point people are getting at. What happens if you name your pet after a Warhammer character, set up a social media account then monetise that account? Can GW legally sue you? Think of the most out-there reason of how someone could end up monetising GW content and that technically could apply. "Anything else" wouldn't hold up in a court.


    Making things less-vague is the purpose of the re-wording, they removed all the unnecessary length from the main parts of it.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 21:22:28


    Post by: yukishiro1


    I already gave you three specific examples. Your response was "yeah ok but they wouldn't actually sue over that," which is precisely my point: they would never sue, because their guidelines aren't legally enforceable.

    The guidelines wildly overstate GW's IP rights.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 21:29:31


    Post by: BaronIveagh


     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    Such as? Other than situations involving the obvious parody/review/abstract quotation etc fair dealing exceptions it doesn't mention.


    Which they have previously threatened lawsuits over.

    This one probably wouldn't make it.

    "not be publicly distributed, except for no-charge digital distribution" as by including it in the 'hobby magazines' section, it would, by it's very nature, have to be allowed to be physically mailed. It fails the 'reasonable person' test that most courts in the US would apply in this situation. GW themselves would fail this requirement, having done exactly this in the past.

    "not be prejudicial to the goodwill, reputation or integrity of Games Workshop or its intellectual property" from the fan sites section is utter garbage, and could run into issues with US law regarding legal protections of service providers and website owners.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 21:42:04


    Post by: A Town Called Malus


     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    Such as? Other than situations involving the obvious parody/review/abstract quotation etc fair dealing exceptions it doesn't mention.


    "Okay, but other than the fair use exceptions which apply to literally everything they produce and which they make zero mention of in their statement of what is allowed under copyright, what are they saying you cannot make?"


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 21:44:00


    Post by: Turnip Jedi


     BobtheInquisitor wrote:
     Turnip Jedi wrote:
     Plant wrote:
    For everyone who is joining the boycott, can you please keep it up until I get a copy of the new kill team?


    Problem is gamer boycotts usually come down to "company x has done something shifty, im only buying half of what I planned to"


    I saw a discussion on another board that basically boils down to everyone planning to boycott GW over this was probably already boycotting GW, which is certainly true for me. However, public shaming of companies, as well as hitting critical mass on YouTube creators revolting, might have a more pronounced effect, maybe. I doubt GW will lose more than a few percentage points of profit n the next year, however if they make some boneheaded decisions in terms of price hikes or TOW’s release, something that affects current customers, then the underlying community discontent from this and other recent events could have a multiplier effect for them as we saw in the Kirby years. Maybe.


    oh aye, but are any of the other wargamer propertys anywhere near GWs level of income ? As another dry slap such as the one X-Wing dished out around 2013 knocking them off the top spot might do something


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 21:50:41


    Post by: BaronIveagh


     Turnip Jedi wrote:

    oh aye, but are any of the other wargamer propertys anywhere near GWs level of income ? As another dry slap such as the one X-Wing dished out around 2013 knocking them off the top spot might do something


    A good question. IIRC Wizkids and FFG are nipping at their heels again, though AoS and 40k have maintained their lead. Wizkids might, actually, overtake them, since it's supposed to be a big year for both Pathfinder and D&D, and between them and GW, they hold four of the top five sales slots for minis.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 21:55:14


    Post by: Mentlegen324


    yukishiro1 wrote:
    I already gave you three specific examples. Your response was "yeah ok but they wouldn't actually sue over that," which is precisely my point: they would never sue, because their guidelines aren't legally enforceable.

    The guidelines wildly overstate GW's IP rights.


    You gave examples for a few exceptions to what's stated. There potentially being exceptions to what's said, depending on the situation, is not the same thing as your claim of "none of it is enforceable". It's enforceable, but there are exceptions.

    And no, my response was that the guidelines are guidelines. Their own words are asking you to follow them as a "balancing act" between "fans enjoying all things Warhammer" and their "duty to preserve and protect our intellectual property rights" - not a clear-cut "you posted a single line, now we'll sue you" sort of thing like you make it out to be.

     A Town Called Malus wrote:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    Such as? Other than situations involving the obvious parody/review/abstract quotation etc fair dealing exceptions it doesn't mention.


    "Okay, but other than the fair use exceptions which apply to literally everything they produce and which they make zero mention of in their statement of what is allowed under copyright, what are they saying you cannot make?"


    ...Your point is? No one has said there aren't exceptions for fair dealing that should be allowed. His claim is that pretty much none of their guidelines are enforceable, however. There's a difference between a claim of "some of this wouldn't hold up in some situations" (which is the case) and saying "very little of this holds up, it's not legally enforcable regardless of the situation" in general.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 21:56:01


    Post by: CthuluIsSpy


     BaronIveagh wrote:
     Turnip Jedi wrote:

    oh aye, but are any of the other wargamer propertys anywhere near GWs level of income ? As another dry slap such as the one X-Wing dished out around 2013 knocking them off the top spot might do something


    A good question. IIRC Wizkids and FFG are nipping at their heels again, though AoS and 40k have maintained their lead. Wizkids might, actually, overtake them, since it's supposed to be a big year for both Pathfinder and D&D.

    Didn't Wizkids overtake AoS already? There was a ICv2 chart that had AoS at 5th place and Wizkids at 2nd.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 22:06:50


    Post by: Monkeysloth


    It wouldn't surprize me of D&D minis outsell GW stuff as D&D is a much bigger market. I'm not even sure that's a fair comparison.

    That being said ICv2 Charts are not the most accurate as they don't really track online sales and it's just a poll of like 100 game stores to see what they sell.

    It's an interesting chart but no way indicative of actual sales for any company. Since they're both public companies (wizkids via Topps) looking at what investor reports say would be a much better method.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 22:13:13


    Post by: BrianDavion


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:
     BaronIveagh wrote:
     Turnip Jedi wrote:

    oh aye, but are any of the other wargamer propertys anywhere near GWs level of income ? As another dry slap such as the one X-Wing dished out around 2013 knocking them off the top spot might do something


    A good question. IIRC Wizkids and FFG are nipping at their heels again, though AoS and 40k have maintained their lead. Wizkids might, actually, overtake them, since it's supposed to be a big year for both Pathfinder and D&D.

    Didn't Wizkids overtake AoS already? There was a ICv2 chart that had AoS at 5th place and Wizkids at 2nd.


    By Wizkids do you mean their dungeons and dragons minis? (which isn't exactly a "Table top war game") heroclix, or "a combination of both"

    cause if it's anything but "just heroclix" that's a apples to oranges comparison.



    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 22:21:39


    Post by: GaroRobe


    People have been leaving dislikes on the Warhammer Com youtube vids. I'm proud to say I'm dislike 666 on the How to Paint Soulraid video.

    Not that this will do much, but it's kinda fun to see how long until GW disables likes/dislikes


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 22:39:03


    Post by: Kanluwen


    I always find that bit funny.

    People whine that GW disables comments, likes/dislikes, etc...but why shouldn't they if this is how the "community" behaves?


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 22:54:03


    Post by: Ghaz


    GW makes a Facebook announcement for each video that they post. That's where they want the feedback so their social media team doesn't have to keep track of comments on multiple platforms.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 22:54:08


    Post by: Gert


    I'm disappointed that people just immediately ignored Alfa and went straight to harassing GW employees and posting infantile comments on completely unrelated social media posts about TTS getting put on hiatus. I love watching TTS and it's dumb humour but I'm not going to be a prat because it might never start up again.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 23:12:50


    Post by: yukishiro1


    Actually making your feelings about it known on all GW's social media posts is precisely what you should do if you actually want to register your disappointment. People shouldn't be abusive, but GW is very aware of its image on social media these days, and that is absolutely the best (i.e. most likely to be effective) way to register your disagreement if you want to do so.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    There potentially being exceptions to what's said, depending on the situation, is not the same thing as your claim of "none of it is enforceable".


    That wasn't my claim. You can tell because it isn't what I said. I said what I meant, if you are reduced to misquoting me, it's a pretty good sign that you're having trouble refuting the argument.

    Again: those guidelines wildly overstate the extent of GW's IP rights. Pretty much every section of their guidelines contains at least one significant misrepresentation of the law. This is not some big coincidence, GW knows this perfectly well. Their guidelines deliberately go far beyond what is legally enforceable, because the point is to scare people into not doing things that are perfectly legal that GW would prefer they not do, not to educate anyone about what their legal rights actually are.





    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 23:19:33


    Post by: BaronIveagh


     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    And no, my response was that the guidelines are guidelines. Their own words are asking you to follow them as a "balancing act" between "fans enjoying all things Warhammer" and their "duty to preserve and protect our intellectual property rights" - not a clear-cut "you posted a single line, now we'll sue you" sort of thing like you make it out to be.


    Except that Historically, GW have treated them as this exactly.

     Mentlegen324 wrote:

    His claim is that pretty much none of their guidelines are enforceable, however.


    No, it wasn't. It was that it wildly overstates their rights. I enumerated two more exceptions that made them unenforceable, but you seem to have chosen to ignore that post.


    BrianDavion wrote:

    By Wizkids do you mean their dungeons and dragons minis? (which isn't exactly a "Table top war game") heroclix, or "a combination of both"

    cause if it's anything but "just heroclix" that's a apples to oranges comparison.


    Not really, since GW maintains it's a 'minis company', not a 'game company'.


     CthuluIsSpy wrote:

    Didn't Wizkids overtake AoS already? There was a ICv2 chart that had AoS at 5th place and Wizkids at 2nd.


    The most recent one is out.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 23:46:47


    Post by: Catulle


     Shadenuat wrote:
    As fans, our whole deal must be demanding more of what we like and protecting it from being taken away. Why all the knee bending, counting others money, and fear of the Law, I don't get it at all. Our job is just to Demand.

    Cripes. That sounds as toxic as all hell. :(


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/07/31 23:56:57


    Post by: Mentlegen324


    yukishiro1 wrote:

    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Mentlegen324 wrote:
    There potentially being exceptions to what's said, depending on the situation, is not the same thing as your claim of "none of it is enforceable".


    That wasn't my claim. You can tell because it isn't what I said. I said what I meant, if you are reduced to misquoting me, it's a pretty good sign that you're having trouble refuting the argument.


    What you said was that you think very little of the guidelines are something that would hold up. Not just suggesting that they're what copyright law already covers but there are exemptions to whats said in certain situations that it doesn't mention, but that they're more than not something that isn't legally enforceable.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 00:19:28


    Post by: yukishiro1


    And that claim is absolutely accurate. The guidelines are riddled with absurd claims that go miles beyond what is legally protected. For example, the bits telling you that you aren't allowed to post stats, and that you aren't allowed to post anything that could harm GW's reputation, are downright laughable. To the point where even calling them an exaggeration of IP protections wouldn't be fair - they're just completely made up out of whole cloth. Nothing in IP law remotely supports them, as GW well knows.

    Your position that the guidelines reasonably represent the extent of copyright protection "but just don't mention some exceptions" is not objectively supportable. The guidelines are nowhere near an accurate summary of GW's IP rights, they go far beyond what is actually legally protected. No IP lawyer reviewing those would tell you "yeah, seems like a fair summary of IP law to me" - well, unless they were on GW's payroll.

    Moreover, your claim that they are only guidelines and are not supposed to be an actual list of what you really can or can't do is directly contradicted by the guidelines themselves, which state that you should follow them "at all times."


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 00:22:06


    Post by: Jack Flask


     BaronIveagh wrote:
     Jack Flask wrote:

    No the problem is that both a large swath of the community, and even Alfabusa to an extent, are being dishonest. I have yet to see anybody show a incident after this "change" to GW's IP policy (this has always been legally within GW's power and their statement has 0 impact on that) where someone has been forced to take their work down either due to threat or DMCA by GW.


    And you won't, not because GW won't do it, but because they'll use Youtube and Patreon as cut outs so they don't have to take the heat.

    As far as things being legal, there are plenty of things that it's legal to do that are generally frowned on. Just because something is legal does not mean there should not be repercussions from having done it.


    You are pointing to an apple and trying to claim that it's an orange.

    Nothing have not removed anything by force. Unless you have an actual related incident you can point to then to claim otherwise is an objective lie.
    Them removing the monetization from unlicensed content is not the same thing as removing, restricting, or threatening legal action against individuals creating allowable content under fair use.

    Even the GW text that people keep quoting as "scary" is specifically under the section on infringement. If something meets the benchmark of fair use, parody, protected speech, etc then it is already by definition not infringement.

     BaronIveagh wrote:
     Jack Flask wrote:

    Alfabusa is currently collecting 18k a month via his Patreon. That's not fan work at that point, it's a job. He has also outright refused to even try contacting GW about an agreement. The "purity of the content" seemingly has much less to do with this than the money involved.


    That's his legal right. Under the law, as stands in the US and UK, his parody is legally protected. He could make a billion dollars a month on it and it would still be protected. The issue is, and you seem to be in utter denial of it, that GW has a long history of not particularly giving a gak what the law actually says, and a long track record of indulging in what might be called 'vexatious litigation'.


    Unless you are an IP lawyer who is also knowledgeable about this specific subset of IP law then no, you actually don't know if it's legally protected. Neither do I.
    But I at least have the good sense to do a cursory investigation of the matter.

    Here's an excerpt from the FAQ of an IP law firm in California about what constitutes parody:

    Spoiler:
    Fair use of a copyrighted work is the reproduction of a work for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research.
    The doctrine of fair use, which limits exclusive rights, was developed through a number of court decisions over the years and has been codified in 17 USC §107 of the copyright law.

    When determining whether use of the copyrighted work is indeed fair use, the following factors are to be considered:
    (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;(2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
    [...]
    A parody is fair use of a copyrighted work when it is a humorous form of social commentary and literary criticism in which one work imitates another. Although a parody falls under “use of a copyrighted work for the purpose of criticism or comment” as provided under 17 USC §107, the determination of whether the work qualifies as a parody depends on the current case law. There is no steadfast set of factors to be considered. As with all gray areas of law, it is important to consult your Copyright Attorney before you publish a work you believe to be a parody. Famous works are often the subject of parodies because of their mass appeal. Famous is synonymous with wealth, or at least financial backing, so it would not be wise to infringe the rights of someone who has the means to defend their rights through litigation.

    The following examples are from real-world cases:

    PARODY: Making fun of the famous photograph of a naked pregnant Demi Moore, taken by Annie Leibovitz for Vanity Fair, by placing the superimposed head of Leslie Nielsen on the body of a naked pregnant woman, using the same lighting and body positioning as the famous photograph, was a parody and therefore was ruled as fair use. See Leibovitz v. Paramount Pictures Corp. 137 F.3d 109 (2d Cir. N.Y. 1998).

    NOT A PARODY: A book authored in Dr. Seuss style to tell the story of the OJ Murders, “The Cat NOT in The Hat!” by Dr. Juice, was not a parody and therefore ruled as infringement. See Dr. Seuss Enterprises, L.P. v. Penguin books USA, Inc., 109 F.3d 1394 (9th Cir. 1997).


    From a layman's perspective TTS swerves all over the lines between what does and doesn't seem to be protected under parody, though I'm not going to pretend to know where it ultimately falls. The sage advice being "consult your attorney" followed by "contact the rights holder", both of which Alfabusa has opted not to do.

    And again, the actual point seemingly in contention isn't whether Alfabusa is allowed to create and post his parody, it's whether or not he's allowed to monetize it. Which is not at all what you and a lot of other people are attempting to claim.

     BaronIveagh wrote:
     Jack Flask wrote:

    No, you can watch Tie Fighter right now (as well as a bunch of other Star Wars fan films and animations) because they didn't try to build their fan work into a bootleg 6 figure income salary.


    Achem;

    https://www.patreon.com/otaking77077


    Congratulations! You are the second person to link his Patreon to me, and the second person to look foolish as a result. He made his Patreon almost 2 years after he released that video, and he doesn't even link his Patreon in the description.
    Does he probably still get new subs as a result of people seeing that video for the first time? Yeah, I imagine. But it's again an apples to oranges compared to Alfabusa directly funding and marketing himself by selling TTS as basically a product in its own right.

     BaronIveagh wrote:
     Jack Flask wrote:

    [b]I'm not here defending GW out of some misplaced loyalty to an economic entity, but if people want to discuss this honestly then you don't get to cherry pick who gets to be defended and when.


    Hold on a sec, I want you all note of this here statement he makes.

     Jack Flask wrote:

    This is literally what GW is doing though. The artist who does the graphics for GW's website was scouted from Adepticon. I remember meeting her at the booth she ran and getting a free coloring book. All of the 40k video creators of note have been approached by GW and offered jobs. The only consequence for turning it down being that you lose that source of revenue which under law you shouldn't have anyway.


    Unless you legally should. I'm sorry, btw, but don't lecture us about honesty and then proceed to the sort of dishonest argument you just did.


    You do realize that the gak you do in the real world matters, right? That things like IP law, copyrights, and trademarks also effect a lot of people that aren't enormous multi-million dollar companies?
    I have friends who are active or aspiring artists, authors, and game devs. This stuff actually impacts their livelihoods because it exists specifically to dictate what protections they have under law for their creative works.

    The idea that we should push for some sort of cut-throat anarchist tipping economy where all that matters is your popularity because these laws don't personally effect you and you selfishly want to keep watching TTS is just so irritating to have to read.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 00:40:53


    Post by: Argive


    well ive been watching their stuff just in case it goes away.

    Never really heard of the videos until this blew up.



    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 01:06:39


    Post by: BaronIveagh


     Jack Flask wrote:

    You are pointing to an apple and trying to claim that it's an orange.

    Nothing have not removed anything by force. Unless you have an actual related incident you can point to then to claim otherwise is an objective lie.
    Them removing the monetization from unlicensed content is not the same thing as removing, restricting, or threatening legal action against individuals creating allowable content under fair use.


    Jack, I've posted the C&D letter that we received before in this very forum. Yes, GW HAVE gone after people practicing 'fair use' in the past. This is 'fact' Jack. Assuming they might have learned from their previous mistakes is, perhaps, a stretch, but one assumes that they'll want to try to minimize the damage the next time in case this backfires.

     Jack Flask wrote:

    Even the GW text that people keep quoting as "scary" is specifically under the section on infringement. If something meets the benchmark of fair use, parody, protected speech, etc then it is already by definition not infringement.


    Except that we know from previous experience that GW legal does not recognize 'fair use' at all. It's not missing from their policies by mistake or omission.

     Jack Flask wrote:

    Unless you are an IP lawyer who is also knowledgeable about this specific subset of IP law then no, you actually don't know if it's legally protected. Neither do I.

    But I at least have the good sense to do a cursory investigation of the matter.


    I have the good sense to retain the services of one already, not being one myself. This is directly BECAUSE of GW. That's beyond the college courses on it I had to take as part of my degree in computer animation. (one of a pair that are computer related, btw)


     Jack Flask wrote:

    You do realize that the gak you do in the real world matters, right? That things like IP law, copyrights, and trademarks also effect a lot of people that aren't enormous multi-million dollar companies?
    I have friends who are active or aspiring artists, authors, and game devs. This stuff actually impacts their livelihoods because it exists specifically to dictate what protections they have under law for their creative works.


    Having been each of the things you name, at various points, yeah, I am familiar with the idea. But I'm also familiar with the idea of Copyright trolls and companies claiming rights under copyright they don't actually have and simply forcing people to stop exercising their own rights by litigating until they can't fight back anymore. You know, the very thing that copyright law was created to prevent?

    I dunno if you realize this, but there are people in this forum who's been on the receiving end of GW Legal's insanity. We've seen this show before, and have a pretty good idea of what happens next.

     Jack Flask wrote:

    The idea that we should push for some sort of cut-throat anarchist tipping economy where all that matters is your popularity because these laws don't personally effect you and you selfishly want to keep watching TTS is just so irritating to have to read.


    No, what's irritating is that you assume that because people don't agree with what GW is doing, what they want is a decent into anarchy. Copyright laws effect me directly, but I also recognize that if I abuse those rights there will be consequences. Something that seems to be an utterly alien idea to GW, as well as what the limits of those rights are.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 01:16:24


    Post by: Dagstyrr


     Kanluwen wrote:
    I always find that bit funny.

    People whine that GW disables comments, likes/dislikes, etc...but why shouldn't they if this is how the "community" behaves?


    Huh? People like/dislike bomb stuff all the time to make a point. I'm sorry you are easily offended. Don't you find it odd they won't allow comments on their videos?


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 01:18:34


    Post by: Kanluwen


    Nope. Not with this crowd.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 01:43:41


    Post by: RaptorusRex


    Pointing to the law on IP and saying "it's fine, they followed the law" is no moral argument. The copyright law, at least in the US, was written by Disney, a company that wants to control its IP as much as possible, to the detriment of the community at large. This, then, can be seen as a "might makes right" argument.

    It should be dismissed as such.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 01:56:56


    Post by: yukishiro1


    It's more like pointing to a list of what GW claims is the law but actually isn't, and saying "it's fine, they followed the law." So even less convincing.

    P.S. Fair use is a defense to infringement, at least under US law, so that claim that they don't mention fair use because that wouldn't be an infringement at all is not even right on its own technical terms. There's nothing like making a gotcha argument that actually gotchas yourself.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 02:07:00


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     Kanluwen wrote:
    People whine that GW disables comments, likes/dislikes, etc...but why shouldn't they if this is how the "community" behaves?
    I knew you'd eventually find a way to blame the players. Tops marks as always, Kan.

    But to your point: When they disable comments, likes/dislikes, etc. and thus leave few opportunities to speak back to GW, is it any wonder that they'll find whatever way they can to vent their frustrations.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 02:13:55


    Post by: BrianDavion


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Kanluwen wrote:
    People whine that GW disables comments, likes/dislikes, etc...but why shouldn't they if this is how the "community" behaves?
    I knew you'd eventually find a way to blame the players. Tops marks as always, Kan.

    But to your point: When they disable comments, likes/dislikes, etc. and thus leave few opportunities to speak back to GW, is it any wonder that they'll find whatever way they can to vent their frustrations.


    except he's got a point, on this thread alone we've had people compare them to rapists, murderers, orginized crime etc.

    and this is a forum with less annomity then a youtube comment offers.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 02:29:03


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


    BrianDavion wrote:
    except he's got a point...
    No he doesn't. At every opportunity Kan will try to state that the root of so many bad things, be it GW's actions or their rules or whatever, are simply the result of fan actions. Their rules aren't bad, it's just the way the players exploit them. GW doesn't ignore feedback, it's just the players are always negative so they have no choice but to block all comments. On and on it goes. Always the same. He thinks that sovereign immunity applies to GW.

    BrianDavion wrote:
    ... on this thread alone we've had people compare them to rapists, murderers, orginized crime etc.

    and this is a forum with less annomity then a youtube comment offers.
    And a few people making dumb comparisons or hyperbolic analogies do not represent the player base as a whole.





    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 02:30:26


    Post by: yukishiro1


    BrianDavion wrote:


    except he's got a point, on this thread alone we've had people compare them to rapists, murderers, orginized crime etc.


    Analogies are not an assertion that the one thing is the same as the other, they are an assertion that there is a common point that can be illustrated through pointing to a different (i.e., not the same - if it was actually the same situation, that wouldn't be an analogy) situation. If I analogize someone being set up to fail at work to being handed a pistol and told to charge a machine gun nest, that doesn't mean I am saying their boss is actually attempting to get them killed.

    I sometimes wish there was a mandatory course everyone has to pass before being allowed to post on the internet that explains things like what an analogy is, what a straw man argument is, how to express disagreement without personally attacking someone, etc.



    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 02:34:01


    Post by: catbarf


     Jack Flask wrote:
    You do realize that the gak you do in the real world matters, right? That things like IP law, copyrights, and trademarks also effect a lot of people that aren't enormous multi-million dollar companies?
    I have friends who are active or aspiring artists, authors, and game devs. This stuff actually impacts their livelihoods because it exists specifically to dictate what protections they have under law for their creative works.


    Hi, I am a former game dev. If you want to support friends who are active or aspiring artists, authors, or game devs, stop posting pro-corporate apologia on behalf of the company that sued a children's author for using the term 'space marine'.

    Your friends are overwhelmingly more likely to be harmed by a larger player making spurious IP claims than by random joes on the Internet using copyrighted material to make fan videos for Youtube. We're not talking about piracy here, we're talking about derivative fan works that don't threaten the copyright holder's market share. This is the kind of fan support that indie devs actively cultivate- it's free advertising and a mutually beneficial relationship with the community. GW's behavior is pretty transparently a carrot-or-stick approach to populating Warhammer+, rather than either a continuation of long-standing policy or a defensive reaction to a credible threat.

    BaronIveagh's comments track with my experience with copyright in the US. Corporations claiming ownership over material that fits fair use exemptions is nothing new; they're counting on the target rolling over rather than face legal fees and the ever-present potential of losing even an ostensibly airtight case. Ask your friends if they're more worried about frivolous lawsuits or having fans.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 02:39:49


    Post by: yukishiro1


    The little guy typically can't afford to sue anybody for copyright infringement in the first place, it's a bit of a phantom protection.

    More than with almost any other area of the law, IP is a big game of chicken, where nobody - typically not even the largest corporation - wants to go to court if they can possibly avoid it.

    What shapes IP management is not so much what the law actually says - which is a confusing jumble of often mutually contradictory pronouncements that are hard to apply generally and are so fact-specific that you typically don't know the outcome until you actually go to court, something nobody wants to do because it's too expensive and risky - as relative appetites for risk and ability to spend money.


    If the Emperor had a Text to speech device on indefinite hiatus @ 2021/08/01 07:10:09


    Post by: kodos


    a big problem here is a very simple one

    US law is very different to EU law which is different to UK law, which is different to China, Japan etc.

    just because it does not fit into US law does no mean the guidelines go beyond any law

    until GW releases guidelines for each country, they have more of a "covers everything everywhere" approach

    for example, "work for hire" does not exist in EU copyright law, some countries have exceptions but nothing like the US, no matter who paid me or for which company I work for, I will always own my creations

    there is no registration requirement in EU law (its actually forbidden) and no moral rights in US law and there is no general fair use law in EU

    GW acts like they do to keep the control of their IP is in some countries the law is much more creator/user friendly and less corporate friendly, hence they don't want people there o get creative


    that they are acting against animations on YT because they have not enough content for WH+ i coming along the usual behaviour to control everything