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Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/02 19:53:20


Post by: mrFickle


Hi there,

What’s the change in the setting or the fluff that you dislike the most. A change that’s taken place between The early editions, like 2nd and 3rd, and where we are now?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/02 20:04:18


Post by: TinyLegions


Two words: Primaris Marines!


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/02 20:26:01


Post by: Turnip Jedi


The pushing of the IOM and the Space Marines as 'goodies', yes the darker elements still exist but theres now one heck of a Saturday morning cartoons varnish covering it


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/02 20:40:38


Post by: Gert


Oh, cool another thread where people complain about how much they hate 40k.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/02 21:30:55


Post by: Vatsetis


Yes, Gert its a pity to have this sort of threads... Specially when we could have other, very long threads dedicated mainly to speak very loud about how we hate the PEOPLE than play 40K with the excuse of representation in miniatures... Those were the good old days... Its sad they wont be back


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
The pushing of the IOM and the Space Marines as 'goodies', yes the darker elements still exist but theres now one heck of a Saturday morning cartoons varnish covering it


+1. The change in tone from the early more satirical days is a real pity.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/02 22:17:20


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


What are we defining as old-timers?

If I had to give a change that I think was for the worse, the removal of women Astartes from Rogue Trader. I think having that player creativity and freedom was rather welcome.
(That's not inviting discussion on that topic, I'm sure - just stating my own preference as per the topic).


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/02 22:36:51


Post by: BrianDavion


 Gert wrote:
Oh, cool another thread where people complain about how much they hate 40k.


is there any other type of thread on dakkadakka?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 03:16:56


Post by: PenitentJake


I would like to see GW strengthen the connections between the Ordos of the Inquisition and their respective Chambers Militant.

I do want the Chambers to continue to have the option of functioning independently as they do now; I just want them to be able to work more closely with the Ordos when that's what a player wants.

Like maybe Inquisitorial detachments don't break army purity for their Chambers.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 03:36:09


Post by: PappyNurgle


I'm still learning what's changed, so no hate yet, but I'll probably find something somewhere. I'll keep ya posted.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 06:11:26


Post by: Lord Damocles


The advancements of late 7th edition onwards - not necessarily because they happened, but because of how little thought/effort clearly went into making them happen.

For example in Death Masque, Eldrad is back, despite being canonically dead. There were easy ways that GW could have worked around this problem - for example setting the narrative pre 13th Black Crusade, or progressing Eldrad's storyline which included a clear setup for him to return via his waystones. But instead he's just back with no explanation - don't think about it; just forge that narrative!

Or the Sisters of Silence are back - where are they getting all their outdated wargear from? Where are their fleets coming from? How does their recruitment work, and does it affect the Officio Assassinorium's recruitment for the Cullexus temple? What does the Inquisition think about this? How come the Sisters don't seem to have changed culturally at all over ten thousand years? What effect has this had on the power of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica relative to other Imperial organisations? - who cares? Don't think about it; just forge that narrative!



Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 07:15:16


Post by: BrianDavion


 Lord Damocles wrote:
The advancements of late 7th edition onwards - not necessarily because they happened, but because of how little thought/effort clearly went into making them happen.

For example in Death Masque, Eldrad is back, despite being canonically dead. There were easy ways that GW could have worked around this problem - for example setting the narrative pre 13th Black Crusade, or progressing Eldrad's storyline which included a clear setup for him to return via his waystones. But instead he's just back with no explanation - don't think about it; just forge that narrative!

Or the Sisters of Silence are back - where are they getting all their outdated wargear from? Where are their fleets coming from? How does their recruitment work, and does it affect the Officio Assassinorium's recruitment for the Cullexus temple? What does the Inquisition think about this? How come the Sisters don't seem to have changed culturally at all over ten thousand years? What effect has this had on the power of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica relative to other Imperial organisations? - who cares? Don't think about it; just forge that narrative!




the sisters of silence wargear consists of power armor, boltguns, flamers and power swords, hardly something that the IoM doesn't have, as for their cultural changes some have happened, you might wanna read "the emperor's legion"


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 08:00:06


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Hmm.

Interesting question.

For me, it was introducing different Regiments of Imperial Guard. I much prefer the “one size fits none” look of the Rogue Trader Uniforms, where any regimental flairs were banners, badges and perhaps the colours of one’s fatigues.

But in 2nd Ed, we got what, six or seven different looks, at a time when GW really couldn’t support that many - and they never properly revisited them to flesh them out.

I strongly suspect the demise of Rough Riders was less them being an odd unit, and more the Atillan models looking crap.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 09:05:42


Post by: Da Boss


I really dislike the advancing timeline and the stuff with Cawl introducing a bunch of new super tech. The super tech doesn't land for me and outside of the basic primaris the other designs like gravis or the stealth armour or the new grav tanks look ridiculous to me.

I hate the advancing timeline because it shrinks the universe down to a few special characters and leads to lots of meaningless conflicts where no one wins or loses.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 09:13:40


Post by: Vatsetis


"Meaningless conflicts where no one wins or loses" is the basic premise of a setting based on the "there is only war" motto.

8th/9th edition timelime "jump" have not change that basic frame in the slightest.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 09:34:04


Post by: Olthannon


So I didn't play 40k for a while I was WHFB first, came into 40k around 3rd edition which I loved.
Having only semi recently come back into the hobby and actually started building, painting minis and looking into the lore again, from my point of view nothing much stands out that is too offensive.

People just love to whinge.

I think yes the fact that the Imperium is being pushed as the good guys is irritating but that's been happening for a loonng time. It became a thing as soon as GW really pushed the NA market. I guess that's a thing I 'dislike' but it's not really anything to be annoyed about. It's just odd when they definitely aren't.

Also I can't stand the Tau now. I liked them being naively good in a galaxy of misery. The biggest mistake they did to me was go all out in the big mecha battlesuits instead of the xenos alliances. Was such a wonderful idea and its now a nothing.

I actually like the fact that the timeline has progressed, had to happen at some point to freshen things up. Allows for new stories and so on. I'm surprised it took this long in all honesty.



Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 10:17:41


Post by: Formosa


hmm not really dislike but not some that I do like is the shift to full colour codex's, I am kind of here nor there about it and miss the old black and white images that seemed to have a very dour tone to them.

Am I the only one?

Other than that what I do quite like is the expansion of the universe through novels, sure they are mostly meh or average but some really really do shine and make me want to collect the models based on the imagery they convey through words.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 10:26:40


Post by: Da Boss


Vatsetis wrote:
"Meaningless conflicts where no one wins or loses" is the basic premise of a setting based on the "there is only war" motto.

8th/9th edition timelime "jump" have not change that basic frame in the slightest.


I knew someone would post that. Well, I should have been clearer with my meaning but I'm posting on my phone and that makes me lazy! I meant that the conflicts are always fronted by a pair of named characters but that we know that they are not going to die. Only thing that might happen is a space marine getting primarised. Conflicts not shifting the setting is fine, conflicts always consisting of pairings from a cast of two dozen super heroes and villains with no stakes are boring and more akin to professional wrestling than a game setting.

I also miss the black and white art, I really enjoy that style and 40k and fantasy had some of the best in the industry.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 10:48:47


Post by: Andykp


Squats disappearing during second and then into third. I know it’s a meme now but I genuinely miss them. In first editions as a kid my only army was ORKS and my best mates were squats. Most my battles were against them. In second edition with the basic starter set army list they were good fun; powerful characters and small tough units. There bikes were a massive pain.

I have read that it was fluff wise they were too similar to fantasy dwarves or biker gangs and they didn’t know where to go with them
, but for me their fluff from 1st edition was good. Harlequins survived on less and are still going. They also teased new squat models in the 2nd starter set that were never released. They looked good, very much fantasy dwarf Saxon/Viking vibe.

Would really love to see them come back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vatsetis wrote:
Yes, Gert its a pity to have this sort of threads... Specially when we could have other, very long threads dedicated mainly to speak very loud about how we hate the PEOPLE than play 40K with the excuse of representation in miniatures... Those were the good old days... Its sad they wont be back


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
The pushing of the IOM and the Space Marines as 'goodies', yes the darker elements still exist but theres now one heck of a Saturday morning cartoons varnish covering it


+1. The change in tone from the early more satirical days is a real pity.


Wind your neck in mate. This is the toxicity that ruins these forums. You disagree, fine we get it. Those threads were actually about how much some of love the hobby and want to make it better. But as Taylor swift says, haters gonna hate, hate, hate.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 10:56:18


Post by: MarkNorfolk


The removal of the Squats
Primaris Marines
The whole Horus Heresy.
Space Marines as giants
Primarchs as even more giant

....basically anything after Slaves to Darkness. :-)


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 11:05:59


Post by: mrFickle


I think people disliking the HH and the way it’s impacted 40K is interesting because I remember reading snippets about the primarchs and the HH and really wanting to know more. But I think it was the mystery that made it exciting as you imagine what might have happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
What are we defining as old-timers?

If I had to give a change that I think was for the worse, the removal of women Astartes from Rogue Trader. I think having that player creativity and freedom was rather welcome.
(That's not inviting discussion on that topic, I'm sure - just stating my own preference as per the topic).


Just people who had been around since the early editions, this is really a thread on sentimentality and note hating 40K as some people want to say.

I miss the hardline on technological stagnation that was in and around 2nd and 3rd. Terminators and drednoughts could not be made new and they enjoyed the status of holy relics along with bolters which were passed down from one warrior to another. I think I even remember stories about space marines going back to battle sites to look for equipment to retrieve. A universe in which most technology is revered as a holy miracle because the understanding of science has been lost is cool to me, it’s deep sci fi.

I’m not sure how far down that tunnel my teenage mind went and I’ve remembered head fluff as lore but there wasn’t as much lore going around at the time.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 11:17:25


Post by: Vatsetis


 Da Boss wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
"Meaningless conflicts where no one wins or loses" is the basic premise of a setting based on the "there is only war" motto.

8th/9th edition timelime "jump" have not change that basic frame in the slightest.


I knew someone would post that. Well, I should have been clearer with my meaning but I'm posting on my phone and that makes me lazy! I meant that the conflicts are always fronted by a pair of named characters but that we know that they are not going to die. Only thing that might happen is a space marine getting primarised. Conflicts not shifting the setting is fine, conflicts always consisting of pairings from a cast of two dozen super heroes and villains with no stakes are boring and more akin to professional wrestling than a game setting.

I also miss the black and white art, I really enjoy that style and 40k and fantasy had some of the best in the industry.


Fair point. We agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:


Wind your neck in mate. This is the toxicity that ruins these forums. You disagree, fine we get it. Those threads were actually about how much some of love the hobby and want to make it better. But as Taylor swift says, haters gonna hate, hate, hate.


The main figure of hatred in Western Christianity those so because how much he loves God. Love and Hate live quite close together in the emotional spectrum and can even happend simultaneously.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 11:30:17


Post by: kirotheavenger


I do feel the Horus Heresy has been very much over explained.

But my biggest pet peeve is the narrative direction since Gathering Storm.
I think throwing around all this new technology meshes poorly with the established setting. I also dislike every new story being the biggest epicest clash between the same characters over and over again.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 11:39:37


Post by: The Forgemaster


2 things mainly:

1. The change to the necrons in 5th
2. the introduction of Primaris Marines - would have been so much better to just upscale the normal marines. also who decided how gravis marines should look??? Give me Terminators and Land Raiders over Agressors and Repulsors any day.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 11:44:28


Post by: Lord Damocles


BrianDavion wrote:

Or the Sisters of Silence are back - where are they getting all their outdated wargear from? Where are their fleets coming from? How does their recruitment work, and does it affect the Officio Assassinorium's recruitment for the Cullexus temple? What does the Inquisition think about this? How come the Sisters don't seem to have changed culturally at all over ten thousand years? What effect has this had on the power of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica relative to other Imperial organisations? - who cares? Don't think about it; just forge that narrative!




the sisters of silence wargear consists of power armor, boltguns, flamers and power swords, hardly something that the IoM doesn't have, as for their cultural changes some have happened, you might wanna read "the emperor's legion"

That's not really true though is it - specifically they have Umbra pattern bolters, which aren't used extensively by any other organisation, being Heresy-era kit; they use Vratine armour, which appears to be unique to them; similarly they use non-stanard power weapons in the form of executioner greatblades - where are they getting all this stuff from?

There's potential for cool narrative here - the Adeptus Astra Telepathica announce that they're getting the band back together and still have a contract for supply with the Adeptus Mechanics, but the Mechanics aren't happy with this arrangement, and so supply outdated wargear malicious compliance style.
But no; a bolters a bolter. Don't think about it!

And I have read The Emperor's Legion - the Sisters have the same vow of silence, the same signature weapons, the same fighting styles, the same liveries, etc etc despite supposedly not having existed as an organisation for ten millennia...

The Sisters from The Beast Arrises series were more divergent from their Heresy-era counterparts, and only one thousand years had passed!


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 11:48:34


Post by: Vatsetis


The historical continuity between 30K and 40K Imperium makes no sense whatsoever. That not how human societies work, period.

If you thing to hard about most of the 40K lore elements they fell apart. That why this is a setting that works better as a satire.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 12:28:20


Post by: harlokin


The general idea of the Imperium innovating strikes a wrong chord for me; stagnation, what stagnation?

More than happy to never see Squats return. They were a hackneyed concept without a purpose.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 12:49:40


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Oh, and named characters.

Not so much them being a thing, but becoming so central to the background. I feel it to be limiting on the writers.

Example? Ghaz vs Ragnar. We both knew nobody was going to die there, which rips the dramatic tension out of it.

This may be heavily informed of my modern media consumption such as GoT and Walking Dead, where big names can and do snuff it.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 12:52:51


Post by: kirotheavenger


I agree, and there's absolutely no reason that characters can't snuff it in 40k.

Fear of killing off characters, especially when dominated with 'fake-out deaths' coughrubiconcough is widely lamented as a poor trick used by spineless writers when it comes to TV or films.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 13:01:16


Post by: jareddm


My issue with the Horus Heresy isn't what we've gotten from it. It's that it's become the introduction for people getting into 40k. New fans aren't handed a rulebook or a codex, or even something set in M41. They're handed Horus Rising. After that a lot of folks never move on. They stay in 30k and assume the rest of 40k is just like it. That primarchs are the only things that matter and that there's supposed to be a continuous, galaxy-spanning storyline.

Hell most new "Intros to 40k" I've seen are literally just detailing the Horus Heresy! As big of a thing as it was, 10,000 is a long time and you really don't need to know that much about it to understand how the setting works.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 13:17:39


Post by: Gert


What? When are new starts handed Horus Rising? They get whatever the edition Starter Set is then get sold the book that goes along with that starter set. Indomitus, Dark Imperium and if not one of them, then a collection of short stories about Space Marines.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 13:25:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I agree, and there's absolutely no reason that characters can't snuff it in 40k.

Fear of killing off characters, especially when dominated with 'fake-out deaths' coughrubiconcough is widely lamented as a poor trick used by spineless writers when it comes to TV or films.


Yeah. For me, I’ve no problem with Primaris or The Rubicon as such. But when multiple named characters get stabbed in one of their hearts, cross the Rubicon and come back twice as fighty? Once is kinda cool. Multiple times is just a bit boring.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 13:25:32


Post by: jareddm


 Gert wrote:
What? When are new starts handed Horus Rising? They get whatever the edition Starter Set is then get sold the book that goes along with that starter set. Indomitus, Dark Imperium and if not one of them, then a collection of short stories about Space Marines.
That has never been my experience. I'm not talking about in a Games Workshop either, I'm talking about online. There are way more folks coming into 40k through youtube lore videos and animations now than anything else. And plenty of them aren't here for the TT. Models, maybe, Novels, definitely. So when they ask for recommendations, what's always number one on those lists? Horus Rising.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 13:25:33


Post by: kirotheavenger


Horus Rising is the best selling novel in the Black Library iirc, I see a lot of people being pointed towards it as their first '40k' novel.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 13:34:10


Post by: jareddm


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I agree, and there's absolutely no reason that characters can't snuff it in 40k.

Fear of killing off characters, especially when dominated with 'fake-out deaths' coughrubiconcough is widely lamented as a poor trick used by spineless writers when it comes to TV or films.


Yeah. For me, I’ve no problem with Primaris or The Rubicon as such. But when multiple named characters get stabbed in one of their hearts, cross the Rubicon and come back twice as fighty? Once is kinda cool. Multiple times is just a bit boring.
Isn't that not what happened with Calgar though? Calgar crossed the Rubicon to ease tensions between Firstborn and Primaris. He was already Primaris when he was ripped apart by Abaddon.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 13:39:37


Post by: The_Real_Chris


The changes from 2nd to 3rd (for example the speed changes between my Guard infantry and my genestealers with the earlier stark differences falling away) killed 40k for me until I was enticed back with 8th edition.

I am rapidly falling out of favour with 9th though with the use of Stratagems to replace strategy and tactics and the divergence from other wargames towards a more 'magic' end of the market, which I accept is more mainstream, but it still fundamentally isn't as rewarding or fun. Its made worse by getting some games of Epic Armageddon recently and being reminded GW can design good wargames when they actually want to.

Background wise? Primaris marines. Completely contrary to the ethos so far with the implications barely explored making the setting less internally consistent.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 13:47:45


Post by: Gert


jareddm wrote:
That has never been my experience. I'm not talking about in a Games Workshop either, I'm talking about online. There are way more folks coming into 40k through youtube lore videos and animations now than anything else. And plenty of them aren't here for the TT. Models, maybe, Novels, definitely. So when they ask for recommendations, what's always number one on those lists? Horus Rising.

I'll chalk it up to the UK/US divide in how people get started with Warhammer.
And as someone else has already said, Horus Rising is a bestselling novel and Dan Abnett is the best writer BL has to offer. The Heresy novels have some gems and considering that the Heresy is a niche within a fairly niche hobby (especially in the early 2000s), that any of them let alone eight, are placed on the NYT Bestsellers list is very impressive. If people are asking for novel recommendations you give them good novels, not the generic stuff like "Crusade and other Stories".


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 13:53:18


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


jareddm wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I agree, and there's absolutely no reason that characters can't snuff it in 40k.

Fear of killing off characters, especially when dominated with 'fake-out deaths' coughrubiconcough is widely lamented as a poor trick used by spineless writers when it comes to TV or films.


Yeah. For me, I’ve no problem with Primaris or The Rubicon as such. But when multiple named characters get stabbed in one of their hearts, cross the Rubicon and come back twice as fighty? Once is kinda cool. Multiple times is just a bit boring.
Isn't that not what happened with Calgar though? Calgar crossed the Rubicon to ease tensions between Firstborn and Primaris. He was already Primaris when he was ripped apart by Abaddon.


If memory serves he got stabbed in the heart, Rubicon, then stabbed in the heart again.

This would require me re-reading pay check awakening again…


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 13:54:04


Post by: Gert


Calgar crossed the Rubicon then got shanked by Abbadon.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 14:00:16


Post by: kirotheavenger


Yeah it seems Calgar was fine when he underwent the procedure, but they really hammed up how "dying" is part of the rubicon surgery.

I think that Dark Angels character was the first one to be resurrected by doing it? Or was he just the first to be brought back from dead-dead? Either way, they did it with Ragnar and maybe Shrike as well?

EDIT: Just checked. Nah Shrike was fine at the time as well, he did it to prove his dedication apparently.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 14:12:43


Post by: Gert


The problem was setting up the procedure as being dangerous, then doing it on a bunch of named characters who all obviously had to survive. There wasn't some random Successor Chapter Master who did it first and then died making everyone scared again, it was First Founding Chapters with named heroes.
I like Primaris as a concept but the Rubicon was stupid and dumb.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 14:16:39


Post by: kirotheavenger


Oh yeah it was definitely stupid hamming up the rubicon as some insanely deadly procedure and then using it on a bunch of named characters so it ends up with a negative mortality rate.

I can't say any of the rest of the new lore was handled much better though.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 15:11:24


Post by: Andykp


The rubicon isn’t exactly old lore though is it.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 15:16:07


Post by: oni


Eh... I really dislike the fall of Cadia. That was completely unnecessary.

At the moment I don't like the design space that the Primaris Space Marines are in because it lacks direction. GW has not a clue what they want them to be or where to go with them.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 15:27:46


Post by: SergentSilver


I'm not a terribly old timer, having started with DoWC and then on the TT at the transition from 4e to 5e, but I completely dislike the Fall of Cadia as well. I mean, it's the grimdark future and gak happens, but at the same time, Cadian is the only fully supported IG right now. The Catachan are a close second, but honestly their models are looking a bit cartoony these days and they're rarely actually stocked in stores.

I'm also not a big fan of Primaris since they seem to be pushing them as just bigger better SM, but then having to go back and bring the now called FB into line since they can't actually get rid of them either, making the whole thing a completely unnecessary expansion to what was already the most well balanced (options-wise only) and expanded faction while other factions are still using the same models from 20 years ago with very few options.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 16:06:27


Post by: Da Boss


I've got mixed feelings about the Heresy novels. On the one hand there are some great books in there (Horus Rising and First Heretic) and some fun page turners (Know No Fear and Betrayer) but there's an awful lot of dross too. Generally I think the series should have been shorter but more focused on Horus and they should have cut out the magic knife plot and worked a bit harder to give him real motivations to fall to Chaos. The wider impact on discourse around the background is the real negative effect - people mostly want to discuss primarchs and other heresy related stuff. And there's nothing really wrong with that, it's just not my cup of tea. It isn't helped by some of the new 'canon' being a lot less cool than what I imagined when I was younger, a bit of a Star Wars prequels effect there.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 16:23:57


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Yeah.

When the Heresy is good? It’s fantastic. It adds depth and nuance to what was a pretty basic story (Horus go naughty, some bro also naughty. Fighty fight fight!).

But there is a fair amount of filler. Now I’m not for one second gonna pretend my opinion on any given book is universal, let alone carefully considered. But I will say I lost interest when the novels dried up in favour of Kwik Kash limited editions and chapbooks etc. Because that was mostly filler.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 17:40:54


Post by: Just Tony


One tiny entry in the 5th Edition Marine codex pissed me off more than anything ever done in 40K lore.


When Matt Ward explained the three types of Marines to us: Ultramarines, We Wish We Were Ultramarines, and One Step From Chaos. That was probably the biggest slap in the face to the most players in one go. A close second would be the now infamous Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle debacle. Oh, look. Both by Ward.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 18:05:47


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 Just Tony wrote:
One tiny entry in the 5th Edition Marine codex pissed me off more than anything ever done in 40K lore.


When Matt Ward explained the three types of Marines to us: Ultramarines, We Wish We Were Ultramarines, and One Step From Chaos. That was probably the biggest slap in the face to the most players in one go. A close second would be the now infamous Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle debacle. Oh, look. Both by Ward.


but on the upside he was being paid exactly what his ideas were worth, hopefully


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 19:06:14


Post by: xerxeskingofking


mrFickle wrote:
Hi there,

What’s the change in the setting or the fluff that you dislike the most. A change that’s taken place between The early editions, like 2nd and 3rd, and where we are now?


this half-assed transition to a "moving" narrative that doesn't actually move. like others have said, we have these big, character driven fights that are meant to be "ULTIMATE SHOWDOWNS OF ULTIMATE DESTINY!", but the writers cannot bring themselves* to have a meaningful resolution with a actaul winner and a looser who suffers a serious setback because of it. like others have said, their is zero tension when you know that both characters will still be alive and available at the end of the book. Hell, they dont even do things like let the deamon protagonists "die" even though it's not permanent for them.

because nothing happens of note, the narrative doesnt move. which creates this annoying "its changed, but it sorta hasnt" feel that gets old quick.


they need to go whole hog with this and actually have things happen that rock the boat. Have a major marine character die crossing the primaris, then have his mantle taken up by a new character. have chaos start conquering larges swathes of the imperium, and have this shown on the maps, so that the threat is felt to be more like a real existential threat to the Imperium than a local problem to Madeup's World, Segmentum Solar. Have the lore for multiple xenos races reflect this sudden shift in the statue quo and their attempts to exploit it, or them running into chaos on a much greater basis than before. etc etc.


move. the. narritive. forward.

*or are not allowed to kill off/seriously change an established character because that would upset that factions fans.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 19:26:30


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
One tiny entry in the 5th Edition Marine codex pissed me off more than anything ever done in 40K lore.


When Matt Ward explained the three types of Marines to us: Ultramarines, We Wish We Were Ultramarines, and One Step From Chaos. That was probably the biggest slap in the face to the most players in one go. A close second would be the now infamous Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle debacle. Oh, look. Both by Ward.


but on the upside he was being paid exactly what his ideas were worth, hopefully


I entirely disagree.

The Codex Astartes was, in a certain way, a test of loyalty to the remaining Primarchs, at a time when loyalty was at a premium. The Codex Astartes does make sense, as it limited the military reach of the Primarchs.

Skip forward 10,000 years, and it’s more about the Letter of the Law, than the Spirit of the Law, as with pretty much everything Imperial.

It’s the 10 Monkies in a Cage, but repeated for 10,000 years. People know and accept you’re not meant to X, but they don’t really understand why.

Consider this, if you’d be so kind. The Inquisition is an organisation with theoretically limitless power. Said limitless power is kind of the point of them. Yet, with competing factions and theologies, they’re surprisingly effective at self regulating.

But, no Inquisitor alive in the modern 40K day has even the slightest concept of just how awful the Heresy was. They’ve never seen a Legion lay waste to a foe, regardless of whether that was a loyalist or traitor Legion. The sheer scale of slaughter anyone able to command tens of thousands of Astartes is frankly unimaginable.

However, they might have seen a single Astartes or a squad thereof work their bloody business. And see just how much of a threat to The Imperium those same warriors could be to The Imperium.

And really, it’s only an Inquisitor who might have the experience to appreciate the wisdom behind the Codex Astartes strict limits on how large a Chapter should be. To see “well, 1,000 of the buggers should get the job done”. And to then know that once upon a time, the Legions engaged in numbers to rival an Imperial Guard regiment? That’s……brown trousers o’clock. And so they support it, and indeed enforce it.

Other Imperial factions (ever Space Marine Chapter Masters) likely don’t have that level of perspective.

So from the Inquisitorial point of view? You do what you can to enforce that. Because the alternative is frankly unimaginable. Any Chapter heading into higher numbers of Brothers under arms? Yeah. You got to ask why, and assume an answer you’re not gonna like.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 19:58:10


Post by: Vatsetis


But the tiny 1000 astartes strong chapters are militarily insignificant.

You can give them epic levels of plot armor, Astartes arent that great threat.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 20:01:59


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Vatsetis wrote:
But the tiny 1000 astartes strong chapters are militarily insignificant.
What we are shown and told indicates otherwise.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 20:18:44


Post by: Gadzilla666


mrFickle wrote:
Hi there,

What’s the change in the setting or the fluff that you dislike the most. A change that’s taken place between The early editions, like 2nd and 3rd, and where we are now?

The changing of Chaos Space Marines from ancient Warriors using ancient weapons and wielding the powers of Chaos as a weapon to wreak havoc on the Imperium they built into a bunch of ramshackle warbands fighting to impress the Chaos Gods, because the ultimate goal of every Heretic Astartes is to ascend to Daemenhood.

On behalf of the 8th Legion, your "Path to Glory".


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 20:20:51


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Indeed.

It’s not their direct comparable numbers. It’s how they’re deployed.

Few if any foes (foreign or domestic) can properly survive an Imperial Guard sledgehammer once the Astartes have ripped the arse off the command structure.

No commanders? No orders. No orders? Lessened response.

Want to collapse a Waaaaagh! Horribly murder the Warboss. Astartes can and will do that.

Want to break the Hive Mind, or at least draw its attention? Astartes can and will do that.

Eldar? Where’s your wussy Farseer, the Astartes are about to rip his head off.

Necrons? Oh no! Your Phaeron got roflstomped! There go your command protocols.

And so on and so forth.

Astartes in their current incarnation are stalemate resolvers. Few can stand against them one on one. They are terror troops. Every shot causes one of your friends to detonate. You can hit them with anti-tank weapons, and they can still walk away. When they get up close and personal? Their pistols are still detonating your mates, their chainswords are kicking our raw gobbets of meat. Oh, and they’re crashing through walls whilst doing it.

Taken their arm off? They don’t care.

Deployed at full Chapter Strength? Yeah. Good luck with that. Not to say it can’t be done, but you need serious numbers on your side to carry the day.

Now….the Astartes Legions? Tens if not hundreds of thousands of Astartes? There’s nothing they cannot collectively achieve.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 20:22:38


Post by: Vatsetis


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
But the tiny 1000 astartes strong chapters are militarily insignificant.
What we are shown and told indicates otherwise.


What we are shown is mostly nonsensical... Is in universe propaganda for the ignorant imperial citizens and bolter porn to fullfill the power fantasies of the fanboys.

Space Marines dont resist any serious scrutiny of their military capabilities, if you do so they are reduce to a joke rather than a menace to anyone.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 20:24:55


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Oh you sweet summer child with ribbons in your hair.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 20:31:08


Post by: Vatsetis


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Indeed.

It’s not their direct comparable numbers. It’s how they’re deployed.

Few if any foes (foreign or domestic) can properly survive an Imperial Guard sledgehammer once the Astartes have ripped the arse off the command structure.

No commanders? No orders. No orders? Lessened response.

Want to collapse a Waaaaagh! Horribly murder the Warboss. Astartes can and will do that.

Want to break the Hive Mind, or at least draw its attention? Astartes can and will do that.

Eldar? Where’s your wussy Farseer, the Astartes are about to rip his head off.

Necrons? Oh no! Your Phaeron got roflstomped! There go your command protocols.

And so on and so forth.

Astartes in their current incarnation are stalemate resolvers. Few can stand against them one on one. They are terror troops. Every shot causes one of your friends to detonate. You can hit them with anti-tank weapons, and they can still walk away. When they get up close and personal? Their pistols are still detonating your mates, their chainswords are kicking our raw gobbets of meat. Oh, and they’re crashing through walls whilst doing it.

Taken their arm off? They don’t care.

Deployed at full Chapter Strength? Yeah. Good luck with that. Not to say it can’t be done, but you need serious numbers on your side to carry the day.

Now….the Astartes Legions? Tens if not hundreds of thousands of Astartes? There’s nothing they cannot collectively achieve.


And spite of this propaganda and self help talks Astartes chapters are tiny military units, with huge limitations... The are the less capable of the military forces of the 40k universe: They lack the numbers, resources and logistics of the Imperial Guard... There reproduction as bioweapons is slow and expensive compared to the masterpieces of biowarfare that are orks and tiranids... There technology is barbaric compare to the one wielded by Eldars or Necrons, or even the Admech... Astartes as a folk tale sound terrifying but as an actual combat force they are almost harmless in interstellar conflicts.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 20:42:32


Post by: mrFickle


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Hi there,

What’s the change in the setting or the fluff that you dislike the most. A change that’s taken place between The early editions, like 2nd and 3rd, and where we are now?

The changing of Chaos Space Marines from ancient Warriors using ancient weapons and wielding the powers of Chaos as a weapon to wreak havoc on the Imperium they built into a bunch of ramshackle warbands fighting to impress the Chaos Gods, because the ultimate goal of every Heretic Astartes is to ascend to Daemenhood.

On behalf of the 8th Legion, your "Path to Glory".


Agree totally, they almost have that baddie vibe from Saturday morning cartoons where they will never beat the baddies because they are either stabbing each other in the back, over complicating things or the leaders are surrounded by morons. I’ve really struggled to develop a clear picture of who Chaos Space Marines are these days. The codex somehow manages to be be to broad to try and cater to fluff wrapped around the traitor legions whilst only really providing the necessary units to play black legion, thematically speaking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When CSM first broke onto the scene they were the past coming back to haunt the imperium but now I feel like, except for abbadon, it’s the black legion that only really counts as CSM and those marines are from who know where. And DG and TS are something separate now from CSM, probably that doesn’t make sense


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 21:02:03


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Vatsetis wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Indeed.

It’s not their direct comparable numbers. It’s how they’re deployed.

Few if any foes (foreign or domestic) can properly survive an Imperial Guard sledgehammer once the Astartes have ripped the arse off the command structure.

No commanders? No orders. No orders? Lessened response.

Want to collapse a Waaaaagh! Horribly murder the Warboss. Astartes can and will do that.

Want to break the Hive Mind, or at least draw its attention? Astartes can and will do that.

Eldar? Where’s your wussy Farseer, the Astartes are about to rip his head off.

Necrons? Oh no! Your Phaeron got roflstomped! There go your command protocols.

And so on and so forth.

Astartes in their current incarnation are stalemate resolvers. Few can stand against them one on one. They are terror troops. Every shot causes one of your friends to detonate. You can hit them with anti-tank weapons, and they can still walk away. When they get up close and personal? Their pistols are still detonating your mates, their chainswords are kicking our raw gobbets of meat. Oh, and they’re crashing through walls whilst doing it.

Taken their arm off? They don’t care.

Deployed at full Chapter Strength? Yeah. Good luck with that. Not to say it can’t be done, but you need serious numbers on your side to carry the day.

Now….the Astartes Legions? Tens if not hundreds of thousands of Astartes? There’s nothing they cannot collectively achieve.


And spite of this propaganda and self help talks Astartes chapters are tiny military units, with huge limitations... The are the less capable of the military forces of the 40k universe: They lack the numbers, resources and logistics of the Imperial Guard... There reproduction as bioweapons is slow and expensive compared to the masterpieces of biowarfare that are orks and tiranids... There technology is barbaric compare to the one wielded by Eldars or Necrons, or even the Admech... Astartes as a folk tale sound terrifying but as an actual combat force they are almost harmless in interstellar conflicts.


Have you read any of the background? At all?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 21:05:56


Post by: BrianDavion


mrFickle wrote:
I think people disliking the HH and the way it’s impacted 40K is interesting because I remember reading snippets about the primarchs and the HH and really wanting to know more. But I think it was the mystery that made it exciting as you imagine what might have happened.


that and not everyone agrees on anything. I mean the HH series is GW's best selling novel series so clearly a lot of people do wanna know more. but yeah some people think it worked better as a bit of a mystery. I can understand both points of view TBH


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 21:17:55


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Vatsetis wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
But the tiny 1000 astartes strong chapters are militarily insignificant.
What we are shown and told indicates otherwise.


What we are shown is mostly nonsensical...
So is much of 40k's stuff - welcome to 40k.

From what I remember, you were largely in support of other "nonsensical" material, in previous discussions. Why the dissonance?
Is in universe propaganda for the ignorant imperial citizens and bolter porn to fullfill the power fantasies of the fanboys.
If that is propaganda, what else is? How much is propaganda? What is truth? Is there any truth?

Maybe, just maybe, 40k is more focused on player enjoyment and the wilful suspension of disbelief, in favour of rule of cool, however that manifests for each player - and therefore, perhaps the feats we see Space Marines do are canon, or perhaps not. Who are you to deny someone else's interpretation?

Space Marines dont resist any serious scrutiny of their military capabilities
Absolutely no faction resists serious scrutiny of their military capabilities. Welcome to 40k.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 21:28:43


Post by: Just Tony


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
One tiny entry in the 5th Edition Marine codex pissed me off more than anything ever done in 40K lore.


When Matt Ward explained the three types of Marines to us: Ultramarines, We Wish We Were Ultramarines, and One Step From Chaos. That was probably the biggest slap in the face to the most players in one go. A close second would be the now infamous Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle debacle. Oh, look. Both by Ward.


but on the upside he was being paid exactly what his ideas were worth, hopefully


Jesus fething Christ, is this seriously going to permeate every goddamned thread?!?!?!?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 21:35:02


Post by: Voss


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Hi there,

What’s the change in the setting or the fluff that you dislike the most. A change that’s taken place between The early editions, like 2nd and 3rd, and where we are now?

The changing of Chaos Space Marines from ancient Warriors using ancient weapons and wielding the powers of Chaos as a weapon to wreak havoc on the Imperium they built into a bunch of ramshackle warbands fighting to impress the Chaos Gods, because the ultimate goal of every Heretic Astartes is to ascend to Daemenhood.

On behalf of the 8th Legion, your "Path to Glory".



and before they were the '8th Legion,' theywere presented as just another Khornate Chapter. Your conception of them is itself a change from the original material.

See RoC: Slaves to Darkness, p 167: "The World Eaters are not the only chapter to dedicate themselves to the Blood God, as the Night Lord's red and black devices demonstrate" (black banner, with a red bat over a white moon with a Khorne rune above)
See it here: https://www.ozdestro.com/uploads/1/3/0/1/13014732/img-6583_1_orig.jpg

if anything, fighting to impress the chaos gods is closer to the original conception, with the black legion being the failures of the chaos chapters, switching from god to god in attempt to save themselves, only surviving because they managed to master possession to the point that the marine host wasn't destroyed by the process.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 21:35:28


Post by: BrianDavion


 Just Tony wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
One tiny entry in the 5th Edition Marine codex pissed me off more than anything ever done in 40K lore.


When Matt Ward explained the three types of Marines to us: Ultramarines, We Wish We Were Ultramarines, and One Step From Chaos. That was probably the biggest slap in the face to the most players in one go. A close second would be the now infamous Grey Knights/Sisters of Battle debacle. Oh, look. Both by Ward.


but on the upside he was being paid exactly what his ideas were worth, hopefully


Jesus fething Christ, is this seriously going to permeate every goddamned thread?!?!?!?


proably. some people are just like a dog with a bone


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 21:40:42


Post by: Turnip Jedi


again swooosh /s


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 21:53:03


Post by: Gadzilla666


Voss wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
Hi there,

What’s the change in the setting or the fluff that you dislike the most. A change that’s taken place between The early editions, like 2nd and 3rd, and where we are now?

The changing of Chaos Space Marines from ancient Warriors using ancient weapons and wielding the powers of Chaos as a weapon to wreak havoc on the Imperium they built into a bunch of ramshackle warbands fighting to impress the Chaos Gods, because the ultimate goal of every Heretic Astartes is to ascend to Daemenhood.

On behalf of the 8th Legion, your "Path to Glory".



and before they were the '8th Legion,' theywere presented as just another Khornate Chapter. Your conception of them is itself a change from the original material.

See RoC: Slaves to Darkness, p 167: "The World Eaters are not the only chapter to dedicate themselves to the Blood God, as the Night Lord's red and black devices demonstrate" (black banner, with a red bat over a white moon with a Khorne rune above)
See it here: https://www.ozdestro.com/uploads/1/3/0/1/13014732/img-6583_1_orig.jpg

if anything, fighting to impress the chaos gods is closer to the original conception, with the black legion being the failures of the chaos chapters, switching from god to god in attempt to save themselves, only surviving because they managed to master possession to the point that the marine host wasn't destroyed by the process.

Wow, faster than expected. We've been over that before. Back in the RT era, when space marines were convicts without extensive genetic modification, primarchs were just generals, and the Ultramarines had a half-Eldar librarian.

Obviously I was talking about the transition of the depiction of Chaos Space Marines from what they were in 2nd, 3rd, and most of 4th edition to how they've been depicted from the 4th edition CSM codex (which was released towards the end of 4th edition) onwards.

But, I guess you want to go back to how everything was in RT? Valid point. You're really devoted to that one banner and two shoulder pads, aren't you?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 21:59:02


Post by: BrianDavion


ya know... the existance of a night lords deamon prince suggests that they're not all marching in lockstep on the issue of chaos


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 22:07:33


Post by: Gert


I do find it quite funny Gadzilla that you complain about CSM being presented as Chaos worshipers when you present the NL as being anti-Chaos despite the fact that neither statement is 100% accurate.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 22:20:05


Post by: Gadzilla666


BrianDavion wrote:ya know... the existance of a night lords deamon prince suggests that they're not all marching in lockstep on the issue of chaos

Of course they aren't. Daemon Princes and Possessed have always been available to the Night Lords. Some would even openly worship the Chaos Gods, but the majority don't, and would view those that do as weaklings and fools.

Gert wrote:I do find it quite funny Gadzilla that you complain about CSM being presented as Chaos worshipers when you present the NL as being anti-Chaos despite the fact that neither statement is 100% accurate.

Not "anti-Chaos", they use it. They just don't generally worship it (again, some warbands would). Raptors are pretty warped, after all.

And I'm complaining about CSM being presented as a bunch of warbands whose primary goal is "Daemenhood", and act like a bunch of mustache twirling villains. Of COURSE some of them worship Chaos. There's entire LEGIONS devoted to them.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 22:26:04


Post by: KidCthulhu


I started at the tail end of second edition and I find myself agreeing with a lot of what's already been said.

I liked when the Horus Heresy was legend, where things were vague and sometimes even contradictory. It was like Beowulf with bolters. Giving too much detail demystified it.

I liked when Necrons were cold, nearly-mindless malfunctioning machines that no one understood.

I'm also not a fan of Cawl coming out of nowhere with super tech, new Uber-Marines, and then resurrecting a Primarch. There should have been at least a schism on Mars if not a civil war in the Imperium. I have issues with the crushing stagnation of 10,000 years that's so indicative of the setting suddenly handwaved away.

But if I'm only allowed one thing to complain about, then it's Roboute. Let the dead stay dead. Primarchs are better as legends than living characters. I'd also be happy if certain canonical Daemon princes remained relegated to Epic for that matter.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 23:10:04


Post by: BrianDavion


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:ya know... the existance of a night lords deamon prince suggests that they're not all marching in lockstep on the issue of chaos

Of course they aren't. Daemon Princes and Possessed have always been available to the Night Lords. Some would even openly worship the Chaos Gods, but the majority don't, and would view those that do as weaklings and fools.

Gert wrote:I do find it quite funny Gadzilla that you complain about CSM being presented as Chaos worshipers when you present the NL as being anti-Chaos despite the fact that neither statement is 100% accurate.

Not "anti-Chaos", they use it. They just don't generally worship it (again, some warbands would). Raptors are pretty warped, after all.

And I'm complaining about CSM being presented as a bunch of warbands whose primary goal is "Daemenhood", and act like a bunch of mustache twirling villains. Of COURSE some of them worship Chaos. There's entire LEGIONS devoted to them.


the thing is, they're not all presented as worshipping chaos, but even the ones who don't tend to be walking the "path of glory" all the same


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 23:18:26


Post by: Gadzilla666


BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:ya know... the existance of a night lords deamon prince suggests that they're not all marching in lockstep on the issue of chaos

Of course they aren't. Daemon Princes and Possessed have always been available to the Night Lords. Some would even openly worship the Chaos Gods, but the majority don't, and would view those that do as weaklings and fools.

Gert wrote:I do find it quite funny Gadzilla that you complain about CSM being presented as Chaos worshipers when you present the NL as being anti-Chaos despite the fact that neither statement is 100% accurate.

Not "anti-Chaos", they use it. They just don't generally worship it (again, some warbands would). Raptors are pretty warped, after all.

And I'm complaining about CSM being presented as a bunch of warbands whose primary goal is "Daemenhood", and act like a bunch of mustache twirling villains. Of COURSE some of them worship Chaos. There's entire LEGIONS devoted to them.


the thing is, they're not all presented as worshipping chaos, but even the ones who don't tend to be walking the "path of glory" all the same

And that's what I was complaining about. Some CSM do WORSHIP CHAOS, others USE IT but don't worship it (which is probably just as damning), others don't use it at all. The distinction has been largely lost. But if your point is that they've ALL been tainted by it in some degree, I'd say you're right. But not all seek Daemonhood.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 23:34:38


Post by: Vatsetis


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
But the tiny 1000 astartes strong chapters are militarily insignificant.
What we are shown and told indicates otherwise.


What we are shown is mostly nonsensical...
So is much of 40k's stuff - welcome to 40k.

From what I remember, you were largely in support of other "nonsensical" material, in previous discussions. Why the dissonance?
Is in universe propaganda for the ignorant imperial citizens and bolter porn to fullfill the power fantasies of the fanboys.
If that is propaganda, what else is? How much is propaganda? What is truth? Is there any truth?

Maybe, just maybe, 40k is more focused on player enjoyment and the wilful suspension of disbelief, in favour of rule of cool, however that manifests for each player - and therefore, perhaps the feats we see Space Marines do are canon, or perhaps not. Who are you to deny someone else's interpretation?

Space Marines dont resist any serious scrutiny of their military capabilities
Absolutely no faction resists serious scrutiny of their military capabilities. Welcome to 40k.


You must remember wrongly or have misunderstand what I said. Seems to be an habit on your part

That I have a different POV about SM other than standard bolter porn depictions dosent mean I "deny" other players interpretations or pretend to spoil the fun out of them. Im just giving a different perspective.

The more people focus on SM heroic deeds and huge power the more dumb they look like. They are ment to be a satire of militaristic hubris, taking them as an unapologetic power fantasy undermines the hole concept.



Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 23:46:51


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Vatsetis wrote:
That I have a different POV about SM other than standard bolter porn depictions dosent mean I "deny" other players interpretations or pretend to spoil the fun out of them. Im just giving a different perspective.
A different perspective that only exists to say "hey, look how unrealistic this is!!"?

Sure - we all know 40k is unrealistic. Not sure why you need to make a big deal about it though?

The more people focus on SM heroic deeds and huge power the more dumb they look like. They are ment to be a satire of militaristic hubris, taking them as an unapologetic power fantasy undermines the hole concept.
Slapping "it's satire" on things doesn't make it true, you know. Not to mention how, by that logic, *everything* in 40k is "satire" - if we're not supposed to take "satirical" content as real, is there anything left that is tangible in the setting? Serious question.

Space Marines can be unrealistic without being "satirical" - it's seeming a lot more like a buzzword than anything else.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/03 23:59:45


Post by: Vatsetis


Well if its a satire at least the over the top and absurd elements of the setting and SM in particular serve a greater cause.

Taking 40k as something serious for its face value is sort of sad.

I dont understand why you are so confrontational.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 00:09:53


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Again, just being over the top and extreme isn't necessarily "satirical" - just to settle that issue.

Nothing in 40k should be face value, yes, but when you're using "but it's satire!" to imply that every Space Marine action is just propaganda, does that not also mean that *every* action in 40k, because 40k itself should not be taken at face value, is propaganda?

Where does the "but it's just propaganda" train stop?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 00:21:10


Post by: Wakshaani


I'd rather not get on the hate train, but I'll say that I miss Sanguinus fighting a trio of Bloodthirsters at the gate, defending the Emperor until they were able to bring him down … his deathcry while plummeting to Earth driving his Blood Angels ino a frenzy that would later be reflected as the Black Rage … that was epic, in the truest sense of the world.

Much better than his current punked status.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 00:21:34


Post by: Vatsetis


You are reading to far into my words and making a completelly wrong misinterpretation of my POV.

Under such circunstances I cannot continue a civic debate with you.



Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 01:14:38


Post by: BrianDavion


Wakshaani wrote:
I'd rather not get on the hate train, but I'll say that I miss Sanguinus fighting a trio of Bloodthirsters at the gate, defending the Emperor until they were able to bring him down … his deathcry while plummeting to Earth driving his Blood Angels ino a frenzy that would later be reflected as the Black Rage … that was epic, in the truest sense of the world.

Much better than his current punked status.


what if they take both stories and combine them? where Sanguinius accompoanies the emperor into battle agaisnt horus carving into the fallen primarchs bloodthirster bodyguards only to be stabed in the back by Horus as he finishes the last one?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 01:33:09


Post by: Pointer5


1. Killing off Squats
2. Removing the comedic aspects from the fluff and game
3. Primaris Marines (GW just couldn't put out a new box of marines without screwing up the fluff)


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 01:37:22


Post by: LumenPraebeo


Like a lot of people. Primaris Marines.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 01:43:53


Post by: PaddyMick


that jar jar binks guy, he's a tool


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 04:55:44


Post by: Insectum7


Primaris Marines
Newcrons
Horus Heresy series ( should have been left as ancient legwnds)
Guilliman resurrection


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 06:43:01


Post by: H.B.M.C.


That an event during the Horus Heresy was responsible for drawing the Tyranids to the Milky Way galaxy.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 07:55:08


Post by: Insectum7


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That an event during the Horus Heresy was responsible for drawing the Tyranids to the Milky Way galaxy.
Oh no, is that a thing?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 07:59:14


Post by: mrFickle


Pointer5 wrote:
1. Killing off Squats
2. Removing the comedic aspects from the fluff and game
3. Primaris Marines (GW just couldn't put out a new box of marines without screwing up the fluff)


On pint 2, I feel like Orks have taken another step towards being more serious with the beast snaggas.

I don’t think it’s bad thing, I think they were maybe a bit too silly even though they were my first army in 2nd. I think there is balance in Orks for them to look really mean but have a hilarious edge that I don’t think GW have got right. I loved the old weirdboyz models that looked like lunatic jesters that are being electrocuted, but I think the up sizing of Ghaz was a good move.

I haven’t read a recent ork codex but I used to like things like the cannon which had a projectile that could in theory infinitely bounce all over the battle field. Even back at you haha. Not good in a tournament setting I guess


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 08:20:17


Post by: kirotheavenger


I noticed something in the recent Killteam article about the new Octarius warzone that I think is indicative of the new narrative direction of 40k.

Everyone is there.

In broad strokes, a Tyranid tendril is descending on the Imperium, so they divert it to worlds in the Otarius sector filled with Orks. Awesome, a cool setup for a nice Orks v Nids campaign.

But, the war grows so large it starts spilling out into surrounding Imperial worlds, forcing the Imperium to engage to contain it.
Okay, the Imperium needs to be everywhere and every battle needs to be bigger and cooler than the one before [/s]. Still cool though.

Then, everyone else turns up to fight as well. But they don't actually want to commit so they only send small Killteams (TM).

Why? There's no good justification for why these would all come. It really feels like a video game like Dawn of War that constructs really thin justification that all these races with completely divergent and opposed intentions all turn up. It makes sense for a video game, I get it, they need everyone there for the campaign so it's fine.
But why 40k? 40k is a thousand thousand stories that we make right? Wrong. Not anymore, it's the story that GW tells us, so to make their new game work they need everyone involved in the story.



Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 09:27:33


Post by: Vatsetis


Every faction being present on the current planet/sector setting because of reasons is a very old trope of 40k.

Its dumb, but its also old.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 09:45:42


Post by: kirotheavenger


I don't remember it from any other stories? Only games like Dawn of War.

Black Reach, Dark Vengeance, any of the Imperial Armours, etc, are all 1v1.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 10:01:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Necrons. General “Gerroff Moi Laaaaand”. Also likely intelligence gathering as to what’s all that racket.

Craftworld Eldar. Get in, tweak fate by a couple of actions. Preserve Eldar lives

Dark Eldar - Slaves, Basil. SLAVES!

The only one that’s a serious stretch would be Tau of course.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 10:16:07


Post by: kirotheavenger


Oh I agree it's possible to create thin justification to get everyone there.

I say thin, because why are Dark Eldar plunging into a massive warzone to take slaves when they can raid any number of far less prepared locations. For just one example.

The point is why bother? It waters down the identity of the battle confuses the positions and stakes.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 10:40:40


Post by: xerxeskingofking


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't remember it from any other stories? Only games like Dawn of War.

Black Reach, Dark Vengeance, any of the Imperial Armours, etc, are all 1v1.


3rd war for armageddon, 13th black crusade (the original one), medusa V, just off the top of my head.


All mega events that had every faction then in the game sticking thier nose in, even ones where that made no sense. And those are all from 3/3.5 era.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 10:44:26


Post by: BrianDavion


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Oh I agree it's possible to create thin justification to get everyone there.

I say thin, because why are Dark Eldar plunging into a massive warzone to take slaves when they can raid any number of far less prepared locations. For just one example.

The point is why bother? It waters down the identity of the battle confuses the positions and stakes.


keep in mind, they're specificly saying every faction just about has KILL TEAMS operating in the theatre. a kill team is basicly a squad of guys. that's an absolutely TINY number of people for every faction in 40k (barring space marines) I mean is it really hard to belive that in an entire sector that 5 dark eldar got drunk and decided "hey ya know, these tyranid beasties in this sector would make awesome arena fodder!"


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 10:47:50


Post by: kirotheavenger


I wasn't as familiar with those, but it seems you're half right on Armaggeddon as that's Orks vs Imperium vs Chaos with Necrons chilling.

You're right on Medusa though, that's a mosh pit of everyone. Why? Because it was the setting of a global campaign, thus justifying the shoe-horning in of everyone for meta reasons.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 11:04:47


Post by: Vatsetis


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't remember it from any other stories? Only games like Dawn of War.

Black Reach, Dark Vengeance, any of the Imperial Armours, etc, are all 1v1.


Look at Vigilus and other "campaign books".


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 11:18:01


Post by: BrianDavion


Vatsetis wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't remember it from any other stories? Only games like Dawn of War.

Black Reach, Dark Vengeance, any of the Imperial Armours, etc, are all 1v1.


Look at Vigilus and other "campaign books".


I mean in fairness the last campaign book before octarius didn't feature everyone just some that made sense, Imperial armies (mostly admech and knights but sisters where present in the zone eneugh to get mentioned) vs chaos. dark eldar appered but they fit nicely narratively


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 11:19:42


Post by: kirotheavenger


I consider Vigilus part of the new lore. It's exactly the sort of "this is the story of 40k" direction that I mean to point out here.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 11:22:08


Post by: BrianDavion


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I consider Vigilus part of the new lore. It's exactly the sort of "this is the story of 40k" direction that I mean to point out here.


so it's a majorly important world we've never heard of before now that a bunch of important characters end up fighting over. yeah thats a new thing...

if you ignore Cadia, armageddon, a dozen other similer worlds.....


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 11:32:11


Post by: kirotheavenger


I think you're misrepresenting my argument there.

Where were Tau on Cadia, or Armageddon?

I agree 40k has often focused around named characters, particular GW fiction, but that's slightly different to the point I'm making.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 11:42:01


Post by: Cynista


The evolution of Necrons from the dark and unknowable eldtritch menance into saturday morning cartoon villains


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 11:53:05


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Chaos being far less…chaotic.

I appreciate the Daemon Engines and some move away from Just Spiky Maureens overall.

But I prefer the Realm of Chaos Warband approach. The best incarnation for me comes from WHFB, around 5th edition.

Rather than a regular army selection, you started off with a Character. They then had to be accompanied by other units of at least equal points. Rinse and repeat until you’ve spent all your points.

The focus was on power and charisma of the Champions as the driving force, and less formally organised armies.

In 40K now, they’re just Another Army. Gone are the mutations and gifts. Gone are lower level spod followers. It’s all just too organised.

We saw a glimmering of that approach with the previous Dark Eldar Codex, and I’d like to see Chaos reflect that again.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 11:57:33


Post by: Lord Zarkov


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think you're misrepresenting my argument there.

Where were Tau on Cadia, or Armageddon?

I agree 40k has often focused around named characters, particular GW fiction, but that's slightly different to the point I'm making.


Tbf the Tau didn’t exist when Armageddon 3 was written.

They were involved with everyone else in the EoT campaign, Medusa V, etc


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 12:25:17


Post by: xerxeskingofking


BrianDavion wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I consider Vigilus part of the new lore. It's exactly the sort of "this is the story of 40k" direction that I mean to point out here.


so it's a majorly important world we've never heard of before now that a bunch of important characters end up fighting over. yeah thats a new thing...

if you ignore Cadia, armageddon, a dozen other similer worlds.....


But cadia and armageddon were both well established strategic locations in the lore, long before the mega campaigns over them, so it's not like medusa v or viligus, which were created wholesale for them campaign as critical to hold, and then dropped off the galaxy as unimportant afternoon


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 12:25:30


Post by: kirotheavenger


I just grabbed Tau as one example of Armageddon, there's also Eldar and Dark Eldar that weren't there to name just two examples.

In general I feel like you're nitpicking specifics rather than appreciating the point I'm actually making.

Medusa is a great comparison actually.
It's an interactive global campaign that brought all the factions together for thin narrative reasons. That's fine, it's a global campaign, everyone needs to be able to participate.

But what's up with Octarius? Nothing. They're just forcing everyone together because they're telling a story they think everyone needs to be involved with.
The new Killteam game in no way needs to be a story. Certainly not a single story.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 12:27:45


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


But Kill Team is largely a narrative affair. So yeah, Tau don’t have much of a reason or opportunity to fiddle around in Octarius.

But tying the game system into the wider narrative does make sense. And you can’t really go leaving people out.

Importantly, Octarius is just a serving suggestion for the two forces in the forthcoming boxed set. There’s nothing tying you or me etc to Octarius.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 12:35:19


Post by: Gert


TBF, Octarius is near two Chapter homeworlds (Chogoris and Nocturne), a major Forge World (Ryza), and two important Guard homeworlds (Catachan and Tallarn). Orks being Orks and Nid's being Nid's if the conflict spills out then large portions of Ultima Segmentum, Segmentum Tempestus, and Segmentum Solar will be within striking distance.
So that's Imperial, Ork and Nid Kill Teams sorted. An enterprising Drukhari Archon might want some prime slave specimens for the arenas, the Asuryani and Harlequins like to meddle so there's that, the T'au could be pre-empting a potential threat to the Empire, CSM could be going for the skulls or glory. 40k is built on thin narrative reasoning, why should this be the exception. IMO the thin reasoning is to allow you to decide why you're dudes are there.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 12:43:48


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Importantly, Octarius is just a serving suggestion for the two forces in the forthcoming boxed set. There’s nothing tying you or me etc to Octarius.

I agree, that's kinda my point. Importantly, I think it contradicts what you said immediately prior.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

But tying the game system into the wider narrative does make sense. And you can’t really go leaving people out.

Is it leaving people out when the Octarius narrative is just for the core set?
Why does everyone's dudes need to be at Octarius? It'd make sense if this was a video game or something where Octarius is all there was. It seems to me like GW is presenting or assuming that indeed Octarius is all there is for Killteam. Which I think is the wrong direction to be taking the 40k narrative.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 13:27:19


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


kirotheavenger wrote:I don't remember it from any other stories? Only games like Dawn of War.

Black Reach, Dark Vengeance, any of the Imperial Armours, etc, are all 1v1.
Literally every large scale IRL event has had every faction present, and for good reason - people want their faction to feel involved.

Armageddon, Vigilus, Cadia, the Plague Wars in Ultramar, Medusa V - it's hardly a new thing. Octarius is just another one of those.

kirotheavenger wrote:I say thin, because why are Dark Eldar plunging into a massive warzone to take slaves when they can raid any number of far less prepared locations. For just one example.
If we're going to use that logic, why should Dark Eldar ever show up at any battlefield, when they can just raid undefended towns and settlements? Should Dark Eldar exist only as a faction in their own game, where one player controls a raiding team of Dark Eldar, and the other controls a gaggle of frightened civilians?

Dark Eldar have every right to show up at massive warzones as any other faction - you just have to justify why, in the same way a Grey Knights player has to justify why their daemon hunting specialists are dealing with an army of Tau.

kirotheavenger wrote:You're right on Medusa though, that's a mosh pit of everyone. Why? Because it was the setting of a global campaign, thus justifying the shoe-horning in of everyone for meta reasons.
And have you considered that's why GW want to do this with Octarius? Making that the new centrepiece for a new theatre of 40k, in a way that Cadia, Medusa V, and Armageddon all have been?

xerxeskingofking wrote:But cadia and armageddon were both well established strategic locations in the lore, long before the mega campaigns over them, so it's not like medusa v or viligus, which were created wholesale for them campaign as critical to hold, and then dropped off the galaxy as unimportant afternoon
Octarius is a well established location in the lore too.

Plus, Vigilus is more relevant galactically than Cadia is right now - or are we saying that new worlds can't become important, only a select handful of already existing ones can only ever be important?

kirotheavenger wrote:Medusa is a great comparison actually.
It's an interactive global campaign that brought all the factions together for thin narrative reasons. That's fine, it's a global campaign, everyone needs to be able to participate.

But what's up with Octarius? Nothing. They're just forcing everyone together because they're telling a story they think everyone needs to be involved with.
The same could be said of any global campaign. GW don't *have* to make global campaigns in the first place.
The new Killteam game in no way needs to be a story. Certainly not a single story.
Maybe it's going to be more than just the Kill Team stuff in the future.


End of the day, lore should be a skeleton which players use to build their factions up from, but when that lore starts being prohibitive ("no, your faction CAN'T show up here!"), then I think that the lore has outstayed it's welcome. It's why I really like that Tau got the Startide Nexus, and because of that, ended up scattering a lot of their fleets across the galaxy. Now it's totally feasible that a Tau army could show up in the Segmentum Pacificus, when they couldn't beforehand, and I like that.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 13:38:28


Post by: kirotheavenger


You keep saying Armageddon, not everyone was there. It was just Orks, Imperium, Chaos, and Necrons.

If you don't agree with and think every faction needs to be in every war, fine, but that just wasn't always the case.
I prefer a world of a thousand stories and we only hear a few of them, with the rest ours to make.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 14:41:19


Post by: mrFickle


I too got excited that GW we’re doing a campaign between Orks and Nids that did not involve the imperium but alas it was not to be.

I suppose it’s a lot of overhead to run multiple campaigns for just 2 factions. Or is it, not sure.

But as Orks have a new codex and Nids might be getting a new one soon it felt refreshing for a minute to think the products might be released like that


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 14:56:56


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


kirotheavenger wrote:You keep saying Armageddon, not everyone was there. It was just Orks, Imperium, Chaos, and Necrons.
Shadow War Armageddon? Did that not have rules for every faction in that game?

Also, with the amount of Armageddon campaigns that ran, I'd be surprised if there wasn't some Tau or other factions that showed up.

If you don't agree with and think every faction needs to be in every war, fine, but that just wasn't always the case.
And likewise, there's still stories where only some factions show up currently, and also have historically been stories when everyone has shown up.

Things haven't changed all that much.
I prefer a world of a thousand stories and we only hear a few of them, with the rest ours to make.
And of those few that we hear about, those ones big enough to warrant their own warzone stories, I think that everyone should be free to partake in them.

If you want stories where only a few factions show up, as you say, you're free to make them.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 14:57:30


Post by: Grimtuff


 Insectum7 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That an event during the Horus Heresy was responsible for drawing the Tyranids to the Milky Way galaxy.
Oh no, is that a thing?


Sadly yes.
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Pharos_(Device)


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 14:59:37


Post by: tauist


I haven't kept up with the new fluff. In general, I like to DIY my game settings and lore - the official lore doesn't really matter to me. And IMO most of the GW lore that I have been exposed to is pretty weak, and kinda childish.

Overall, I preferred the 1st edition lore, which was much more open than the current stuff, in which everything is more or less "discovered" already.



Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 17:07:30


Post by: Tawnis


Grav Tanks.

Not Primaris as a whole, they're pretty meh lore wise, but whatever, at least the models look cool. The Grav tanks changed tanks that looks cool and could pass as real tanks (so long as your knowledge of tanks is firmly based in pop culture) to tanks that looked dumb AND made no sense. Okay, so you can float, that does have some niche advantages, but you're certainly going to take a harder hit when you're shot because physics are a thing, and also why are there no guards on your grav generators, loose one and you're dead in the water.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 17:40:17


Post by: Vatsetis


Aparently one of the strenghts of 40k to a very vocal part of the fanbase is the lack of logic... Actual physics are anathema for them... The bigger and dumbmer a concept the better... So primaris grav tanks must be excelent.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 17:51:01


Post by: Voss


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And likewise, there's still stories where only some factions show up currently, and also have historically been stories when everyone has shown up.


Can you name some? I honestly can't think of any where everyone shows up.

I can't think of a way it could be done well, either.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 17:53:36


Post by: Lord Damocles


Lord Zarkov wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think you're misrepresenting my argument there.

Where were Tau on Cadia, or Armageddon?

I agree 40k has often focused around named characters, particular GW fiction, but that's slightly different to the point I'm making.


Tbf the Tau didn’t exist when Armageddon 3 was written.

They were involved with everyone else in the EoT campaign, Medusa V, etc

During the Eye of Terror campaign, the Tau were in their own area separate from everybody else who were busy in the Cadian Gate.

They were so on their own that they were largely ignored by everybody else, which led to the background of the eastern Fringe being stripped of resources by the Imperium in order to reinforce the Gate, and the Tau being able to take advantage of that weakness during the Third Sphere Expansion.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
kirotheavenger wrote:You keep saying Armageddon, not everyone was there. It was just Orks, Imperium, Chaos, and Necrons.
Shadow War Armageddon? Did that not have rules for every faction in that game?

Only the Marines, Guard, and Orks are narratively present in Acheron where Shadow War Armageddon is set.

The framing for all of the other factions in the rulebook is 'The battles that rage through Acheron’s sprawling underhive are but a drop in the ocean of clandestine campaigns that ravage the Imperium. Armageddon is a single planet in a vast galaxy, and every hive world, promethium colony and mining station can quickly become enshrouded in a shadow war' (pg.114).


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 17:53:53


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Vatsetis wrote:
Aparently one of the strenghts of 40k to a very vocal part of the fanbase is the lack of logic... Actual physics are anathema for them...
Would you care to show the class how the physics of psychic powers work? The Warp? Daemons?

Maybe physics as we know it just isn't a feature in 40k - after all, I thought we were all aware this is an illogical setting?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 17:55:59


Post by: mrFickle


Vatsetis wrote:
Aparently one of the strenghts of 40k to a very vocal part of the fanbase is the lack of logic... Actual physics are anathema for them... The bigger and dumbmer a concept the better... So primaris grav tanks must be excelent.


Sure it’s sci fi fantasy, the science is beyond even the understanding of the characters in the game, mostly, so we accept that some amazing science has delivered these improbable machines and concepts. We don’t need to try and get behind the science like in star trek

But if you are going to free your self from science then your concepts need to be great. And if the best someone can do is going from “it’s got wheels” to “it floats” then that not imaginative enough for me to get excited about.

But a massive cathedral on legs? We need more of that kind of imagination


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 17:57:58


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Voss wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And likewise, there's still stories where only some factions show up currently, and also have historically been stories when everyone has shown up.


Can you name some? I honestly can't think of any where everyone shows up.
Dawn of War features that in Soulstorm (I think?).
Medusa V had every faction present.
The Plague Wars had everyone present.
I *believe* that the 13th Black Crusade had everyone around, even Tau.
Nearly any "narrative" campaign that GW ran at WHW was explicitly open to all factions.
And, as I said, Shadow War: Armageddon had unit packs for all factions in the game at the time.

I can't think of a way it could be done well, either.
I think it sure could - just pick a sufficiently large and vital region (like a sub-sector of space, perhaps), and just provide enough reasons to be there - but considering this is 40k, that's not difficult for many factions.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 18:10:08


Post by: Voss


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And likewise, there's still stories where only some factions show up currently, and also have historically been stories when everyone has shown up.


Can you name some? I honestly can't think of any where everyone shows up.
Dawn of War features that in Soulstorm (I think?).

Dawn of War didn't have everyone in it, so... obviously not.

Medusa V had every faction present.
The Plague Wars had everyone present.
I *believe* that the 13th Black Crusade had everyone around, even Tau.

Nearly any "narrative" campaign that GW ran at WHW was explicitly open to all factions.
And, as I said, Shadow War: Armageddon had unit packs for all factions in the game at the time.

I mean, sure. Game rules and events encouraging people to show up at the shop aren't going to turn people away with 'you aren't in this, so sorry, but you can't play.' That's not the same as a story though.


I think it sure could - just pick a sufficiently large and vital region (like a sub-sector of space, perhaps), and just provide enough reasons to be there - but considering this is 40k, that's not difficult for many factions.

It is actually difficult for several factions, especially access to a specific sub-sector. There are places in the galaxy some just can't get to. Stuff like tau wandering out of their pocket, tyranid being separated from their hive fleets, and anyone being in the Eye just gets handwaved (when people bother to tie a story element or place to a game. Mostly in my experience, folks just don't bother- they just get on with the game against whichever opponent is there).



Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 18:17:50


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Voss wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Voss wrote:
I honestly can't think of any where everyone shows up.
Dawn of War features that in Soulstorm (I think?).

Dawn of War didn't have everyone in it, so... obviously not.
Soulstorm pretty much did. Or rather, they featured just about every faction that was in the setting at the time.

It definitely had Tau in, which are the biggest case of "nooooo they aren't supposed to be there!" we usually see.
Medusa V had every faction present.
The Plague Wars had everyone present.
I *believe* that the 13th Black Crusade had everyone around, even Tau.

Nearly any "narrative" campaign that GW ran at WHW was explicitly open to all factions.
And, as I said, Shadow War: Armageddon had unit packs for all factions in the game at the time.

I mean, sure. Game rules and events encouraging people to show up at the shop aren't going to turn people away with 'you aren't in this, so sorry, but you can't play.' That's not the same as a story though.
Still examples of settings and battle in 40k where everyone was present, which you asked for.

Plus, I'd definitely say that most of those were story settings. But, as you say, GW were creating events and moments where they didn't want to (for good reason) exclude whole factions. I think that's what they're going for with things like Octarius.


I think it sure could - just pick a sufficiently large and vital region (like a sub-sector of space, perhaps), and just provide enough reasons to be there - but considering this is 40k, that's not difficult for many factions.

It is actually difficult for several factions, especially access to a specific sub-sector. There are places in the galaxy some just can't get to. Stuff like tau wandering out of their pocket, tyranid being separated from their hive fleets, and anyone being in the Eye just gets handwaved (when people bother to tie a story element or place to a game.
Well, with the Startide Nexus, that's not an issue any longer for the Tau, Hive Fleet Leviathan (or is it Kraken?) has slipped under the galactic plane, so could reasonably strike anywhere, and anything in the Eye likely has Warp access, so could be Deus-Ex-Machina'd wherever the subsector needs to be.

End of the day, I'd rather see more things in lore that provide opportunities for factions to pop up in battles than restrictions in lore that stop factions showing up.
Mostly in my experience, folks just don't bother- they just get on with the game against whichever opponent is there).
Oh, absolutely - that's why I'd like to see more player freedoms, instead of restrictions, to canonise that.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 18:57:52


Post by: Voss


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Voss wrote:
I honestly can't think of any where everyone shows up.
Dawn of War features that in Soulstorm (I think?).

Dawn of War didn't have everyone in it, so... obviously not.
Soulstorm pretty much did. Or rather, they featured just about every faction that was in the setting at the time.

It definitely had Tau in, which are the biggest case of "nooooo they aren't supposed to be there!" we usually see.
Medusa V had every faction present.
The Plague Wars had everyone present.
I *believe* that the 13th Black Crusade had everyone around, even Tau.

Nearly any "narrative" campaign that GW ran at WHW was explicitly open to all factions.
And, as I said, Shadow War: Armageddon had unit packs for all factions in the game at the time.

I mean, sure. Game rules and events encouraging people to show up at the shop aren't going to turn people away with 'you aren't in this, so sorry, but you can't play.' That's not the same as a story though.
Still examples of settings and battle in 40k where everyone was present, which you asked for.


No, it actually wasn't. You said stories, and I asked for examples of that. I could've been more clear, I suppose.
But the 40k stories and 40k games don't overlap much at all to me.
They aren't even vaguely capable of modelling what happens in one format in the other. If Special Character whomever shows up on the table, he gets multiple heavy weapons to the face and its a done deal. Meanwhile a book marine gets to go nuts on multiple squads as an unstoppable juggernaut (usually).


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 19:00:08


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Voss wrote:
No, it actually wasn't. You said stories, and I asked for examples of that. I could've been more clear, I suppose.
But the 40k stories and 40k games don't overlap much at all to me.
Ah, my mistake - all the same, I personally would still regard those I mentioned above as "story" events, in so much as I consider any story or setting or battle in 40k as a "story".


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 20:08:33


Post by: Arbitrator


I could state Guilliman's return, but I think he's the most notably symptom of the sort of 'Avengersifcation' of 40k in the wake of him waking up. Events now, more than ever, feel like they have to directly revolve around the Character Of The Week, rather than merely about the factions. Whilst there's always been prominent characters tied to certain events (Yarrick and Ghaz on Armageddon), it feels like just about everything must now directly revolve around them and everybody else is just a witness to their awesome 12" Reroll Failed Hits bubbles.

It's served to shrink the scale of the setting immensely. We can't care what's going on over in X sector because Guilliman or Calgar aren't there yet, or Typhus is attacking it with Be'lakor, or whatever character - updated model or new invention - they're trying to push that week. It feels more character driven than ever, which when GW can't write good, consistent, coherent characters at the best of times isn't a great setup.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 20:29:14


Post by: mrFickle


 Arbitrator wrote:
I could state Guilliman's return, but I think he's the most notably symptom of the sort of 'Avengersifcation' of 40k in the wake of him waking up. Events now, more than ever, feel like they have to directly revolve around the Character Of The Week, rather than merely about the factions. Whilst there's always been prominent characters tied to certain events (Yarrick and Ghaz on Armageddon), it feels like just about everything must now directly revolve around them and everybody else is just a witness to their awesome 12" Reroll Failed Hits bubbles.

It's served to shrink the scale of the setting immensely. We can't care what's going on over in X sector because Guilliman or Calgar aren't there yet, or Typhus is attacking it with Be'lakor, or whatever character - updated model or new invention - they're trying to push that week. It feels more character driven than ever, which when GW can't write good, consistent, coherent characters at the best of times isn't a great setup.


I think guilliman is also not a from dark enough for 40K, and although the dark imperium is a grim dark setting I think guilliman can’t help but make things less grim. If he was to come back he should have come back as some sort of bitter zombie guilliman


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 20:34:02


Post by: Voss


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Voss wrote:
No, it actually wasn't. You said stories, and I asked for examples of that. I could've been more clear, I suppose.
But the 40k stories and 40k games don't overlap much at all to me.
Ah, my mistake - all the same, I personally would still regard those I mentioned above as "story" events, in so much as I consider any story or setting or battle in 40k as a "story".


How? Magnus the Red (or, conversely Squad Trooper B) on the table has no drama, agency, arc, foil, growth or resolution. You simply apply statistical probability to him until he's off the table.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 21:05:36


Post by: BrianDavion


mrFickle wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
I could state Guilliman's return, but I think he's the most notably symptom of the sort of 'Avengersifcation' of 40k in the wake of him waking up. Events now, more than ever, feel like they have to directly revolve around the Character Of The Week, rather than merely about the factions. Whilst there's always been prominent characters tied to certain events (Yarrick and Ghaz on Armageddon), it feels like just about everything must now directly revolve around them and everybody else is just a witness to their awesome 12" Reroll Failed Hits bubbles.

It's served to shrink the scale of the setting immensely. We can't care what's going on over in X sector because Guilliman or Calgar aren't there yet, or Typhus is attacking it with Be'lakor, or whatever character - updated model or new invention - they're trying to push that week. It feels more character driven than ever, which when GW can't write good, consistent, coherent characters at the best of times isn't a great setup.


I think guilliman is also not a from dark enough for 40K, and although the dark imperium is a grim dark setting I think guilliman can’t help but make things less grim. If he was to come back he should have come back as some sort of bitter zombie guilliman





he basicly IS a bitter zombie gulliman


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 21:35:16


Post by: mrFickle


BrianDavion wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
I could state Guilliman's return, but I think he's the most notably symptom of the sort of 'Avengersifcation' of 40k in the wake of him waking up. Events now, more than ever, feel like they have to directly revolve around the Character Of The Week, rather than merely about the factions. Whilst there's always been prominent characters tied to certain events (Yarrick and Ghaz on Armageddon), it feels like just about everything must now directly revolve around them and everybody else is just a witness to their awesome 12" Reroll Failed Hits bubbles.

It's served to shrink the scale of the setting immensely. We can't care what's going on over in X sector because Guilliman or Calgar aren't there yet, or Typhus is attacking it with Be'lakor, or whatever character - updated model or new invention - they're trying to push that week. It feels more character driven than ever, which when GW can't write good, consistent, coherent characters at the best of times isn't a great setup.


I think guilliman is also not a from dark enough for 40K, and although the dark imperium is a grim dark setting I think guilliman can’t help but make things less grim. If he was to come back he should have come back as some sort of bitter zombie guilliman





he basicly IS a bitter zombie gulliman


He bitter, maybe a bit emo but not grim. If he went around exterminatus happy because of the disgust he sees in wha the empire has become maybe but at the end of the day, what ever he says, he still pulled off one heroic mission after another to save the imperium

If it was better that we burned in Horus ambition then why the indomitus crusade, if you want the house to burn down stop putting out fires


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 21:43:04


Post by: Gert


Exterminatusing the whole Imperium because it doesn't fit the Emperor's ideal vision isn't grimdark its just stupid.
Thats also what Guilliman said before he spoke with the Emperor. Nobody knows what was said but Guilliman came out determined to protect what was left of the Imperium.
That Guilliman's return and the introduction of the Primaris has done little if anything to "save" the Imperium is more grimdark than "me Guilliman sad, me burn literally everything".


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 21:57:05


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Voss wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Voss wrote:
No, it actually wasn't. You said stories, and I asked for examples of that. I could've been more clear, I suppose.
But the 40k stories and 40k games don't overlap much at all to me.
Ah, my mistake - all the same, I personally would still regard those I mentioned above as "story" events, in so much as I consider any story or setting or battle in 40k as a "story".


How? Magnus the Red (or, conversely Squad Trooper B) on the table has no drama, agency, arc, foil, growth or resolution. You simply apply statistical probability to him until he's off the table.
I disagree. Are you seriously telling me that you've never told your own stories or seen your own narratives unfold on tabletop? That you've never been compelled by the performance of one squad as it somehow outlasts and defeats a much stronger unit? That squad leader that impossibly seems to slay the enemy warlord? That plasma gunner that always overheats? The rivalries between commanders, the grudge matches between games, the imagery of the battle fought by the little toy soldiers on the table?

Every game has story potential, in my opinion. Squad Trooper B is exactly the kind of thing I mean, because that trooper might survive that charge from that lone Terminator assaulting the objective, and even kill it. And from that, Squad Trooper B is not just Squad Trooper B, but 'Squad Trooper B - the Terminator Slayer'. Perhaps you have a character who keeps losing their duels against the enemy leader - but you keep trying and trying until one day, you actually roll hot, and you finally win that duel.

Those are the stories which I believe 40k was built to tell - the ones in the narrative are just frameworks for those stories.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 22:03:15


Post by: BrianDavion


heck didn't some of the original special characters become who they where today because of things that happened in GW games done for battle reports?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 22:06:26


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


BrianDavion wrote:
heck didn't some of the original special characters become who they where today because of things that happened in GW games done for battle reports?
Yes, I believe so! In fact, the whole story of Captain Tycho of the Blood Angels was based on just such a battle report game!
(Well, either Tycho or Mephiston, I don't remember exactly which)


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/04 22:19:33


Post by: Wakshaani


BrianDavion wrote:
heck didn't some of the original special characters become who they where today because of things that happened in GW games done for battle reports?


Yup. Ghazgul being the biggest, of course. It's one reason why our local tables have a rule of no named characters... you should be making your own story, not playing someone else's.

But we're old, so.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 05:19:39


Post by: Just Tony


BrianDavion wrote:
heck didn't some of the original special characters become who they where today because of things that happened in GW games done for battle reports?


Captain Cortez was written out as a playable character because Dave Thomas got him captured in a one off game against one of the studio Dark Eldar players.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 06:03:18


Post by: Vatsetis


 Gert wrote:
Exterminatusing the whole Imperium because it doesn't fit the Emperor's ideal vision isn't grimdark its just stupid.
Thats also what Guilliman said before he spoke with the Emperor. Nobody knows what was said but Guilliman came out determined to protect what was left of the Imperium.
That Guilliman's return and the introduction of the Primaris has done little if anything to "save" the Imperium is more grimdark than "me Guilliman sad, me burn literally everything".


Apparently for some fans if you dont double down on the stupidity is not 40k enough.

Guilliman doing more damage to humanity and the IOM than Abbadon and the Tyranids together would be the perfect nihilistic story.

It would also made perfect sense from his perspective to follow a scorched earth policy to deny resources to the enemies of the IOM while hopping something new and better arises from the ashes.

But in the grimdark future of the year 40.000 there is only WORLDS but no consequences... The power of the status quo is unbreakable.



Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 06:39:30


Post by: BrianDavion


Vatsetis wrote:


Guilliman doing more damage to humanity and the IOM than Abbadon and the Tyranids together would be the perfect nihilistic story.




and endless nihilism is boring.

It would also made perfect sense from his perspective to follow a scorched earth policy to deny resources to the enemies of the IOM while hopping something new and better arises from the ashes.


it only makes sense if you admit you'll NEVER fething WIN THOSE WORLDS BACK.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 07:28:08


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Lord Damocles wrote:

Only the Marines, Guard, and Orks are narratively present in Acheron where Shadow War Armageddon is set.

The framing for all of the other factions in the rulebook is 'The battles that rage through Acheron’s sprawling underhive are but a drop in the ocean of clandestine campaigns that ravage the Imperium. Armageddon is a single planet in a vast galaxy, and every hive world, promethium colony and mining station can quickly become enshrouded in a shadow war' (pg.114).

This is what I was getting at.

Why haven't they done the same for Killteam?
The only time shoe-horning everyone makes sense in is interactive campaigns, whether that be videogames like Dawn of War or global campaigns like Medusa. Even then it only makes sense because we accept it's necessary to handwave that thin justification for the sake of not excluding anyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Guilliman, I do agree that not everything needs to be super grim evil all the time regardless of sense.

However, I dislike how he was handled in general. It seems they've basically handwaved all the expected internal conflict.
I know they've made excuses like he had a bunch of Assassins hanging around to scare the High Lords into going along with it? But when you have Black Templars chumming up with Eldar, and Dark Angels embracing foreign soldiers with open arms it raises an eyebrow.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 07:45:19


Post by: BrianDavion


 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:

Only the Marines, Guard, and Orks are narratively present in Acheron where Shadow War Armageddon is set.

The framing for all of the other factions in the rulebook is 'The battles that rage through Acheron’s sprawling underhive are but a drop in the ocean of clandestine campaigns that ravage the Imperium. Armageddon is a single planet in a vast galaxy, and every hive world, promethium colony and mining station can quickly become enshrouded in a shadow war' (pg.114).

This is what I was getting at.

Why haven't they done the same for Killteam?
The only time shoe-horning everyone makes sense in is interactive campaigns, whether that be videogames like Dawn of War or global campaigns like Medusa. Even then it only makes sense because we accept it's necessary to handwave that thin justification for the sake of not excluding anyone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Guilliman, I do agree that not everything needs to be super grim evil all the time regardless of sense.

However, I dislike how he was handled in general. It seems they've basically handwaved all the expected internal conflict.
I know they've made excuses like he had a bunch of Assassins hanging around to scare the High Lords into going along with it? But when you have Black Templars chumming up with Eldar, and Dark Angels embracing foreign soldiers with open arms it raises an eyebrow.


I reccomend reading the novels "the emperor's legion" and "the regent's shadow" they're fantastic novels and do flesh out things a little. there's resistance to Gulliman, some of it overt (there was an attempted coup when his back was turned) but most of the resistance has been subtler because well... obviously going DIRECT against a primarch is idiotic. for example, there where sabotoge issues with the preperations of the indomatus crusade fleet etc.


on the other topic, we're talking an entire sector of space, not just one world.

also I think it's worth noting that the exact wording is "almost every faction has a stake"

honestly, even if it's just the orks, tyranids and imperium, that's close eneugh to every faction to count, and the craftworld eldar sending a small strike team into the mix to futz with the course of the war is pretty "standard operating procedure" for them.
so I'd honestly not read tooooooooooo much into this.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 13:11:54


Post by: endlesswaltz123


I have a few, but two I specifically dislike, though they are the same problem (other than the Tau in general, awful faction), was the fleshing out of Deathwatch and Grey Knights from 1x small specialist squads that were allies you could attach to a force to fully fleshed out forces.

Grey Knights specifically are meant to be so so so rare that there really is no justification other than well, Angron popping up on Armageddon for such huge contingents of them showing up. This is also because they were/are meant to be that badass and powerful just as a 5x man Terminator unit. Power Armour Grey Knights as well is another matter entirely. Fully Terminator Plate or get in the bin.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 14:07:04


Post by: KidCthulhu


 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I have a few, but two I specifically dislike, though they are the same problem (other than the Tau in general, awful faction), was the fleshing out of Deathwatch and Grey Knights from 1x small specialist squads that were allies you could attach to a force to fully fleshed out forces.

Grey Knights specifically are meant to be so so so rare that there really is no justification other than well, Angron popping up on Armageddon for such huge contingents of them showing up. This is also because they were/are meant to be that badass and powerful just as a 5x man Terminator unit. Power Armour Grey Knights as well is another matter entirely. Fully Terminator Plate or get in the bin.


There's not enough Exalts in the galaxy for this. I loved GK back when they were specialized Terminators. They should be add-ons to existing Imperium forces for special missions. This is my feeling towards Inquisitors as well. These folks should be in an Imperial Agents codex, not swarming battlefields by themselves.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 14:13:02


Post by: kirotheavenger


I think a lot of the factions that got expanded from single squads into entire factions suffered for it.
Deathwatch in particular. Killteams were literally their whole shtick. But they expanded them into entire armies, why?!


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 14:22:57


Post by: Gert


Does anyone here who hates that DW were expanded actually play DW, read any of their Codex material, or read any DW novels?
Multiple Kill Teams being deployed is not a new thing and on top of that DW are very expensive in-game, it's literally an army of 1st Company Veterans in most cases.
The Combat Patrol at most is three Kill Teams plus a leader and a support officer.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 14:23:58


Post by: Catulle


BrianDavion wrote:


he basicly IS a bitter zombie gulliman


"I do these things and I enjoy them, not because we are moral or right, or loving souls seeking to enlighten a dark universe, but because all I feel are the Butcher's Nails hammered into my brain. I serve because of this mutilation. Without it, well, perhaps I might be a more moral man as you claim to be... a virtuous man, eh? Perhaps I might ascend the steps of our father's palace... and take the slaving bastard's head"

Go on, Roboute... you can be a better moral compass than fricking *Angron* right... right..?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thread tax - I've been at this since Rogue Trader, and the thing I found hardest to make my peace with was... the Dark Eldar. Based on all that came before I found them utterly nonsensical: wot, no soulstones?!?

*shuffles his feet nervously and eyes his primary faction of spikey douchebag elves*


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 15:00:43


Post by: endlesswaltz123


 Gert wrote:
Does anyone here who hates that DW were expanded actually play DW, read any of their Codex material, or read any DW novels?
Multiple Kill Teams being deployed is not a new thing and on top of that DW are very expensive in-game, it's literally an army of 1st Company Veterans in most cases.
The Combat Patrol at most is three Kill Teams plus a leader and a support officer.


So the codex material about them deploying in force is basically all new, so yes, I dislike that.

I used to play a Deathwatch kill team as an attachment with a captain or librarian leading it, it was badass.

I have read the deathwatch novels, I can recall off the top of my head once when more than one kill team was in the same battle i.e. shooting at the same enemies as the other kill team. Multiple kill teams on a planet is fine, as with what happened in the third war for Armageddon. Those same kill teams being in sight of each other and not out on specialist missions themselves... That is not how they used to work, and what I dislike about them.

1 kill team used to be enough, requiring whole forces of kill teams to achieve one mission devalues them.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 15:25:36


Post by: Gert


How do you take down the Warboss of a huge Waaaagh! with one Kill Team? What about a Hrud migration?
There was room for missions with multiple Kill Teams assigned the same mission previously, now it's just possible to do so.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 15:52:00


Post by: Catulle


 Gert wrote:
How do you take down the Warboss of a huge Waaaagh! with one Kill Team? What about a Hrud migration?
There was room for missions with multiple Kill Teams assigned the same mission previously, now it's just possible to do so.


That does seem like the kind of narrative space that, er, space marine chapters are meant to occupy rather than super-specialler specialist marines...


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 16:02:57


Post by: Gert


But why send a random Chapter when the specialists exist? Why waste Astartes who might have never fought Orks before when you can send ones that have intimate knowledge of Orks seared into their brains. Three Kill Teams led by a Captain would be far more effective than a Company plus support.
A normal Chapter might seek a truce with Xenos whereas the Deathwatch are indoctrinated even beyond normal Astartes to hate Xenos. There will be no moral quandary and no quarter given.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 16:25:07


Post by: endlesswaltz123


 Gert wrote:
How do you take down the Warboss of a huge Waaaagh! with one Kill Team? What about a Hrud migration?
There was room for missions with multiple Kill Teams assigned the same mission previously, now it's just possible to do so.


Space Marine Chapters/Imperial guard regiments with Ordo Xenos support (if necessary) for both situations.

Also, 3x kill teams will not stop a Wagghhh.

One Warboss needing to be assassinated? 1 Kill Team, 1 Officio Assassinorum operative. To stop a whole Waaagh, you need a hell of a lot of bodies, equipment, Navy support if the Orks have a fleet...

You are trying to justify it to us, I (and others) do not like the lore change, this is what this thread is about, stop being so defensive about a faction you have put on a pedestal.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 17:12:30


Post by: Gert


 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Space Marine Chapters/Imperial guard regiments with Ordo Xenos support (if necessary) for both situations.

Also, 3x kill teams will not stop a Wagghhh.

One Warboss needing to be assassinated? 1 Kill Team, 1 Officio Assassinorum operative. To stop a whole Waaagh, you need a hell of a lot of bodies, equipment, Navy support if the Orks have a fleet...

Killing the Warboss is a tried and true tactic for stopping Ork hordes, if that Warboss has survived previous attempts by an Assassin or single Kill Team then a larger force might be required.

You are trying to justify it to us, I (and others) do not like the lore change, this is what this thread is about, stop being so defensive about a faction you have put on a pedestal.

I'm having a discussion which BTW you can't stop me from doing.
I'd also like to point out that in the DW Codex supplement it still mentions how DW Astartes conduct various operations from single warriors leading human operatives to entire Watch Fortresses being deployed. DW are still deployed in Kill Teams it just varies on how many teams are needed for a given mission.
The DW Combat Patrol has a total of 15 models and at most 3 Kill Teams plus a Lt and an Apothecary. That's still a small force.
If you want small forces of DW then you can still do that with small-scale games and Kill Team. I could go and read through all the DW RPG books and find evidence that a Watch Fortress would deploy en mass but there's a hell of a lot of books for the RPG and I really CBA.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 17:32:11


Post by: Catulle


I don't know, it just leans into the superman myth-but-not bit a *little* closer than I'm personally comfortable with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But then, I like my marines as brainwashed convicts, so... biases, worn on sleeve


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 18:05:05


Post by: kirotheavenger


I'm not against a few Deathwatch Killteams teaming up occasionally for exceptional circumstances.
But it's become almost standard operating procedures, and they're employing literally a small army. IMO it devalues the Deathwatch as a small team of specialists if they're fielding anything on that scale.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 20:21:39


Post by: mrFickle


I agree turning deathwatch into a chapter with a codex was poor and feels like they were trying to do marines+.

They suit kill team but as it stands I just think GW were milking the SM cow for everything they could.



Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 23:41:37


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I only started in 2016, but I miss objectively good guys, like Cain and Vulkan. Granted both of them have never been confirmed dead, but I mean more written out of the lore/we haven't seen or heard from them in over a decade?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/05 23:46:20


Post by: Gert


I mean Cain is dead at some point but that's like 50 odd years into M.42 which the timeline isn't near right now. Vulkan is Vulkan.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 00:28:31


Post by: Catulle


 Gert wrote:
I mean Cain is dead at some point but that's like 50 odd years into M.42 which the timeline isn't near right now. Vulkan is Vulkan.


Last I checked (and I'm a Horus Heresy guy), Vulkan was utterly bonkers as only a man who is immortal and nobody thought to tell him could be.which was kinda neat in the way it undercut the whole perpetual thing. They "fixed" it... didn't they..?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 00:31:18


Post by: BrianDavion


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I only started in 2016, but I miss objectively good guys, like Cain and Vulkan. Granted both of them have never been confirmed dead, but I mean more written out of the lore/we haven't seen or heard from them in over a decade?


Cain's still around, he had a novella published about a year or so ago.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 00:44:01


Post by: Gert


Catulle wrote:
Last I checked (and I'm a Horus Heresy guy), Vulkan was utterly bonkers as only a man who is immortal and nobody thought to tell him could be.which was kinda neat in the way it undercut the whole perpetual thing. They "fixed" it... didn't they..?

Currently, Vulkan in the Heresy is (spoilers for Deathfire and Old Earth IIRC)
Spoiler:
on Terra standing guard beside the Golden Throne just in case the Emperor fails and the webway opens. He's got a psychic doomsday device that will destroy Terra if the Emperor dies. He's very sane and alive.

Post Heresy (spoilers for Beast Arises)
Spoiler:
Vulkan "died" fighting the Beast on Ullanor, which turned out to be one of seven. Basically Vulkan died for nothing and he hasn't been seen since, despite his perpetuality.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 00:48:46


Post by: BaronIveagh


I'm not fond of some of the changes to ship lore, with Lunar classes flitting around during the Heresy, even though in the original lore, it wasn't a mainline of the Navy until M36.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 01:14:49


Post by: BrianDavion


 Gert wrote:
Catulle wrote:
Last I checked (and I'm a Horus Heresy guy), Vulkan was utterly bonkers as only a man who is immortal and nobody thought to tell him could be.which was kinda neat in the way it undercut the whole perpetual thing. They "fixed" it... didn't they..?

Currently, Vulkan in the Heresy is (spoilers for Deathfire and Old Earth IIRC)
Spoiler:
on Terra standing guard beside the Golden Throne just in case the Emperor fails and the webway opens. He's got a psychic doomsday device that will destroy Terra if the Emperor dies. He's very sane and alive.

Post Heresy (spoilers for Beast Arises)
Spoiler:
Vulkan "died" fighting the Beast on Ullanor, which turned out to be one of seven. Basically Vulkan died for nothing and he hasn't been seen since, despite his perpetuality.


I really thought that bit with vulkan in war of the beast was lame, if you're gonna bring a primarch back just to have him go out like a putz....... why bother?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 01:23:04


Post by: Catulle


 Gert wrote:
Catulle wrote:
Last I checked (and I'm a Horus Heresy guy), Vulkan was utterly bonkers as only a man who is immortal and nobody thought to tell him could be.which was kinda neat in the way it undercut the whole perpetual thing. They "fixed" it... didn't they..?

Currently, Vulkan in the Heresy is (spoilers for Deathfire and Old Earth IIRC)
Spoiler:
on Terra standing guard beside the Golden Throne just in case the Emperor fails and the webway opens. He's got a psychic doomsday device that will destroy Terra if the Emperor dies. He's very sane and alive.

Post Heresy (spoilers for Beast Arises)
Spoiler:
Vulkan "died" fighting the Beast on Ullanor, which turned out to be one of seven. Basically Vulkan died for nothing and he hasn't been seen since, despite his perpetuality.


Damnit, Bueller!


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 01:30:27


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Malcador was a Perpetual, and he died after being exposed to almost the same thing as Vulkan, right? Unchecked raw pure warp energy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I only started in 2016, but I miss objectively good guys, like Cain and Vulkan. Granted both of them have never been confirmed dead, but I mean more written out of the lore/we haven't seen or heard from them in over a decade?


Cain's still around, he had a novella published about a year or so ago.


Was that a compilation/compendium of older books, or a entirely new book? I was under the misapprehension that Cain's last book was in the early to mid 00's. Also, with Cain, he's basically a Marvel Character at this point. They can bring him back whenever they need to, "Poof, HE WAS ALIVE THIS WHOLE TIME!"


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 01:51:10


Post by: BaronIveagh


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Was that a compilation/compendium of older books, or a entirely new book? I was under the misapprehension that Cain's last book was in the early to mid 00's. Also, with Cain, he's basically a Marvel Character at this point. They can bring him back whenever they need to, "Poof, HE WAS ALIVE THIS WHOLE TIME!"




New one. Last Night at the Resplendent was a novella that came out last year.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 03:29:29


Post by: BrianDavion


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Malcador was a Perpetual, and he died after being exposed to almost the same thing as Vulkan, right? Unchecked raw pure warp energy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I only started in 2016, but I miss objectively good guys, like Cain and Vulkan. Granted both of them have never been confirmed dead, but I mean more written out of the lore/we haven't seen or heard from them in over a decade?


Cain's still around, he had a novella published about a year or so ago.


Was that a compilation/compendium of older books, or a entirely new book? I was under the misapprehension that Cain's last book was in the early to mid 00's. Also, with Cain, he's basically a Marvel Character at this point. They can bring him back whenever they need to, "Poof, HE WAS ALIVE THIS WHOLE TIME!"


his last full length novel was in 2018 but he's appered in short stories since then.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 06:38:35


Post by: Lord Damocles


Cain is dead in universe according to Vail's notes on his memoirs.

Obviously stories can still feature him by just being set earlier in the timeline; although after a while it's better that good stories/series actually end, rather than shambling on forever with the exploits of characters becoming increasingly unbelievable.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 07:07:01


Post by: BrianDavion


thing is cain has ALWAYS been dead. Cain isn't a GW character so much as a character from one author's novel series (BTW if anyone likes the Cain novels and is unaware, the novels are HEAVILY inspired by the flashman papers... which are basicly best summed up as "Victorian era Cain") So if he's appering less is proably more the writer not having any good ideas, or busy writing something else etc.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 07:16:50


Post by: Thargrim


For me things started getting worse with the big necron revamp. Then it's gradually gotten worse ever since. I actually think the dark eldar 7th edition...or was it 6th...I don't even know. But when the range was revamped almost entirely, that was a good book, good lore.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/06 07:18:15


Post by: BrianDavion


 Thargrim wrote:
For me things started getting worse with the big necron revamp. Then it's gradually gotten worse ever since. I actually think the dark eldar 7th edition...or was it 6th...I don't even know. But when the range was revamped almost entirely, that was a good book, good lore.


that was 5th edition. same edition as the Necron "great retconning"


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/17 15:38:53


Post by: Shuma-Gorath


Orks losing the quirky humorous charm (RT and 2nd), instead becoming feral green gorilla like creatures.

The Screamer-Killer Carnifex becoming irrelevant.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/19 22:15:19


Post by: PenitentJake


mrFickle wrote:
I agree turning deathwatch into a chapter with a codex was poor and feels like they were trying to do marines+.

They suit kill team but as it stands I just think GW were milking the SM cow for everything they could.



See, I don't think of DW as marines at all; I think of them as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. It was stoopid edition churn that prevented GW from releasing Alien Hunters in 3rd ed despite releasing both Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters. As far as I'm concerned, giving DW a dex/supplement was a way of making it up to us beardy folk who have been playing long enough that we're still bitter we got screwed over five editions ago.





Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/20 01:40:39


Post by: Nevelon


PenitentJake wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I agree turning deathwatch into a chapter with a codex was poor and feels like they were trying to do marines+.

They suit kill team but as it stands I just think GW were milking the SM cow for everything they could.



See, I don't think of DW as marines at all; I think of them as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. It was stoopid edition churn that prevented GW from releasing Alien Hunters in 3rd ed despite releasing both Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters. As far as I'm concerned, giving DW a dex/supplement was a way of making it up to us beardy folk who have been playing long enough that we're still bitter we got screwed over five editions ago.





I love deathwatch. Look cool, great background, etc.

They don’t need to be a full army. And they are not alone. I feel the same way about grey knights, harlequins, imperial knights, LotD, scions, and probably more that I’m forgetting. All those things that started out as one unit, maybe with a character or two that got spun up into a bloated stand alone force. Keep them small. We can easily ally things these days.

Take a kill team or two. Add a character. But if you want all the whistles and bells of a full marine force, just ally in a normal chapter. Which is what would happen in my headcannon if a KT found something that needed that level of firepower. If the inquisitor or whoever was leading the mission found out they needed more firepower then a couple veterans could do with a surgical strike, they would go to the nearest chapter with relations to the Deathwatch and ask to borrow a demi company, or whatever force was needed. Not call back to the watch fortress for stuff they really have no business needing.

Super special hyper rare things are fine as a 0-1 elite pick, or a special ally cherry on top on another army. Taking a full table of them cheapens their uniqueness. Also leans into the one-upmanship that now has full forces of custodies on the field.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/20 06:29:12


Post by: PenitentJake


Well, tell you what- you and I will have to respectfully disagree.

I suppose I shouldn't have brought game content in background thread in the first place, though I hadn't expected an immediate response shutting down 4 armies and alienating all the players who love them just because "You can always ally with good ole, run of the mill space marines"

I play 25 PL Deathwatch- it's twelve infantry models- A Watchmaster leading a Proteus team of 5 and Kyria Draxus leading a Fortis Team of five.

Funny thing about that little force? Even as small as it is, it's still better for having a supplement. Ninth ed isn't exclusively about 2k battles anymore.

Anyway, like I said, not the right forum to talk about the game anyway. Peace out.





Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/20 10:25:40


Post by: Pacific


 Shuma-Gorath wrote:
Orks losing the quirky humorous charm (RT and 2nd), instead becoming feral green gorilla like creatures.
.


Yes I wasn't a fan of that too. I know an element still remains of that with the Orks, but them becoming a lot more 'nasty' has switched me off them a bit - although I'm sure it makes them a more attractive force for 40k and things like that!

If you are still a fan check out Space Marine Epic 2nd edition (or the fan remake NetEpic), their representation in that game still carries much of the fun and randomness of the Ork faction as it was released around that time; Ork clans following their nature if you fall out of command (Evil Sunz go racing, Goffs will charge), mad Mekboy weapons and contraptions, Cults of speed and things like that.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/20 11:29:37


Post by: Nevelon


PenitentJake wrote:
Well, tell you what- you and I will have to respectfully disagree.

I suppose I shouldn't have brought game content in background thread in the first place, though I hadn't expected an immediate response shutting down 4 armies and alienating all the players who love them just because "You can always ally with good ole, run of the mill space marines"

I play 25 PL Deathwatch- it's twelve infantry models- A Watchmaster leading a Proteus team of 5 and Kyria Draxus leading a Fortis Team of five.

Funny thing about that little force? Even as small as it is, it's still better for having a supplement. Ninth ed isn't exclusively about 2k battles anymore.

Anyway, like I said, not the right forum to talk about the game anyway. Peace out.


Sorry, my bad here.

It’s one of those things that crosses over background and rules for me. And a bit of a hot button. IMHO things like grey knights and deathwatch have a mystique of being elite and special. Or should. Seeing them deployed army-strength in pickup games lessens that for me. As an old timer, it remember before they got the full army treatment, and that’s the vision I like to have for them. Now they feel like they are just silver marines or black armored marines with some special rules. I know they still have the background and lore, but it’s all intertwined with what I see on the table

I do recognize that the ship has sailed. Newer players (and that’s most people) have a completely different vision of these armies. And that’s OK. I don’t advocate the squatting of anyone’s army, but there are some I wish were never fleshed out to that level.



Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/20 13:08:13


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Whilst I heavily prefer the lore of 'Knights and Deathwatch being single squads doing special stuff, with only really 'Knights ever talked about doing big deployments (and that is once a millennia events), I can kinda justify it with these 2000 point forces everyone loves (honestly higher point values routinely just aren't fun, no idea why people keep playing it) being still a small force, or in the case of the deathwatch I like to imagine its the entire watchstation deploying.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/20 16:13:39


Post by: PenitentJake


The_Real_Chris wrote:
Whilst I heavily prefer the lore of 'Knights and Deathwatch being single squads doing special stuff, with only really 'Knights ever talked about doing big deployments (and that is once a millennia events), I can kinda justify it with these 2000 point forces everyone loves (honestly higher point values routinely just aren't fun, no idea why people keep playing it) being still a small force, or in the case of the deathwatch I like to imagine its the entire watchstation deploying.


My DW force will grow a bit- 5 Vanguard Vets to finish the Proteus Team, 5 Outriders to finish the Fortis team. And Indomitor team of 5 HI's and 5 Agressors. A Corvus Blackstar... And I'll have to put in a second Proteus to a) balance Old Marines and Primaris (two 10 man teams of each) and b) take up the remaining seats in the Corvus.

Beyond that? They'll get a Librarian and a Chaplain.

Usually, I'll only deploy 2/4 of the teams- one old, one new. Also 2/4 HQ. The whole Fortress would only deploy in the most dire of emergencies.



Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/20 19:09:18


Post by: Insectum7


 Nevelon wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I agree turning deathwatch into a chapter with a codex was poor and feels like they were trying to do marines+.

They suit kill team but as it stands I just think GW were milking the SM cow for everything they could.



See, I don't think of DW as marines at all; I think of them as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. It was stoopid edition churn that prevented GW from releasing Alien Hunters in 3rd ed despite releasing both Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters. As far as I'm concerned, giving DW a dex/supplement was a way of making it up to us beardy folk who have been playing long enough that we're still bitter we got screwed over five editions ago.





I love deathwatch. Look cool, great background, etc.

They don’t need to be a full army. And they are not alone. I feel the same way about grey knights, harlequins, imperial knights, LotD, scions, and probably more that I’m forgetting. All those things that started out as one unit, maybe with a character or two that got spun up into a bloated stand alone force. Keep them small. We can easily ally things these days.

Take a kill team or two. Add a character. But if you want all the whistles and bells of a full marine force, just ally in a normal chapter. Which is what would happen in my headcannon if a KT found something that needed that level of firepower. If the inquisitor or whoever was leading the mission found out they needed more firepower then a couple veterans could do with a surgical strike, they would go to the nearest chapter with relations to the Deathwatch and ask to borrow a demi company, or whatever force was needed. Not call back to the watch fortress for stuff they really have no business needing.

Super special hyper rare things are fine as a 0-1 elite pick, or a special ally cherry on top on another army. Taking a full table of them cheapens their uniqueness. Also leans into the one-upmanship that now has full forces of custodies on the field.


The funny part to me is that if you want to play OG Deathwatch, all you have to do is field a Sternguard Squad, because when Sternguard were created they were nearly copy-pasted from the original DW WD article.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/20 19:13:23


Post by: Nevelon


 Insectum7 wrote:

The funny part to me is that if you want to play OG Deathwatch, all you have to do is field a Sternguard Squad, because when Sternguard were created they were nearly copy-pasted from the original DW WD article.


Before they had a codex I put together a squad with the shoulder pads I got in the captain and command squad boxes. Don’t know if I got a chance to field them before the new rules dropped, but that was the plan.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/21 05:40:17


Post by: Insectum7


BrianDavion wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
For me things started getting worse with the big necron revamp. Then it's gradually gotten worse ever since. I actually think the dark eldar 7th edition...or was it 6th...I don't even know. But when the range was revamped almost entirely, that was a good book, good lore.


that was 5th edition. same edition as the Necron "great retconning"
The Necron book was basically proto-6th iirc, released just a couple months before 6th . . . complete with the new flyers. I think that DE book was mid 5th? Squeezed in between five Marine codexes somewhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nevelon wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

The funny part to me is that if you want to play OG Deathwatch, all you have to do is field a Sternguard Squad, because when Sternguard were created they were nearly copy-pasted from the original DW WD article.


Before they had a codex I put together a squad with the shoulder pads I got in the captain and command squad boxes. Don’t know if I got a chance to field them before the new rules dropped, but that was the plan.
Yeah for a while you could order Deathwatch shoulder pads, bolters and helmets from GW (all metal). I still have some of those around somewhere.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/21 11:06:38


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I had a Deathwatch and an AdMech army before GW went and made rules for them.

It's all about being ahead of the curve.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/21 13:23:19


Post by: Ketara


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh, and named characters.

Not so much them being a thing, but becoming so central to the background. I feel it to be limiting on the writers.

Example? Ghaz vs Ragnar. We both knew nobody was going to die there, which rips the dramatic tension out of it.

This may be heavily informed of my modern media consumption such as GoT and Walking Dead, where big names can and do snuff it.


This. I don't object to Guilliman getting back from his spa weekend, I don't have a problem with Abbadon going on his annual hike out of the eye. I don't mind the stories and campaigns which surround that sort of thing. 'Professional wrestling', as Da Boss so eloquently put it, does have its own charms.

The problem for me is that it's crowded out everything else. There's no longer any room in the official 40K narrative for the Average Joe human. The Yarricks, the Cains, the Gaunts, the Eisenhorns, the Creeds, the Macharius, the Slaydo. Normal humans only exist now as a sort of narrative companion and plot enabler to the main superhuman named characters. You'll never get another Armageddon campaign, because the Imperial side of the story needs to be told from the viewpoint of Primarised Calgar/Dante/whatever. The Space Marines have effectively taken over the story, and in line with that, the Primarch-centric story of 30K has morphed into being over and above it.

The Grim Adventures of High Commander [insert name here] to stop the evil machinations of Chaos Lord/Archon/O' [insert name here] will never be of relevance beyond a footnote on the timeline, because they're not named characters. And that's a shame, because so very many of the now -named- characters came from that sort of beginning.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/21 13:32:05


Post by: Valkyrie


This possible change doesn't irk me, what irks me is I'm unsure of wherever it happened or not. I could have sworn that the original fluff for Vulkan was that he was white as he wasn't actually Nocturnean. Only the Salamanders themselves were black.

Am I mistaken or was this real?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/21 18:54:19


Post by: pelicaniforce


Yeah you’re 100% mistaken because there is no old background for the race or skin tone of the Salamanders or Vulkan.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/22 15:24:08


Post by: Insectum7


pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah you’re 100% mistaken because there is no old background for the race or skin tone of the Salamanders or Vulkan.
When Salamanders were first released into 40k as part of Codex: Armageddon, the depictions of them had them with dark skin (natural/african) rather than the unnatural coal black they are now.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/22 18:51:22


Post by: pelicaniforce


Yeah it was a commercially available book, I’ve seen it. There isn’t any background in it that says Nocturneans are any particular IRL race.

Or Macraggans for that matter

When the first helmetless Salamander was ever shown in Rogue Trader they had dark skin and blond hair. No background.

the studio army shown in that Armageddon codex has more white skinned models than dark. There’s no background about what dominants skin tones most of the chapters’ home worlds have.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/22 23:29:10


Post by: Jarms48


What's the biggest thing I dislike?

The gradual shift the setting has had from grimdark to nobledark. Just read through the 3rd edition rulebook and look at the artwork, then compare it to the 9th edition lore and art.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/23 03:30:27


Post by: Insectum7


pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah it was a commercially available book, I’ve seen it. There isn’t any background in it that says Nocturneans are any particular IRL race.

Or Macraggans for that matter

When the first helmetless Salamander was ever shown in Rogue Trader they had dark skin and blond hair. No background.

the studio army shown in that Armageddon codex has more white skinned models than dark. There’s no background about what dominants skin tones most of the chapters’ home worlds have.
That's all fine. They did however change to unnatural coal black at some point and thats wierd.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/23 10:06:38


Post by: Gert


How is it weird? It's a gene-seed mutation. Just like the Red Thirst or Raven Guard paleness. It would be weird if only the Salamanders had a gene-seed mutation.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/23 10:23:48


Post by: posermcbogus


 Gert wrote:
How is it weird? It's a gene-seed mutation. Just like the Red Thirst or Raven Guard paleness. It would be weird if only the Salamanders had a gene-seed mutation.


Weird in that GW had just enough sense to realize that maybe racially segregated marine chapters might not be a great thing, but instead of improving diversity across their range they just fluffed away an entire chapter of Black marines and replaced them with mutants. And didn't change their primarch's name from a childish pun - Vulkan He'stan: Vulkan, he's tan - oh and also they didn't give the same treatment to the White Scars who are still depicted as being the East Asian chapter.

But yeah, no, one planet of humans with white ethnotype features but jet black skin and red eyes because they weren't weird enough looking already is totally sensical.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/23 10:40:18


Post by: Gert


Vulcan is the Roman God of fire, volcanoes and the forge. Vulkan the Primarch comes from a finery volcanic world and is amazing at forging.
Vulkan He'stan is Master of the Forge in M41.
You've mixed two characters up and honestly for the whole time I've been in the hobby it's never occurred to me that the M41 Vulkan's second name could be a pun on his skin tone. Would you happen to have a source that says this is true?
The Scars are based on the Mongols and there is literally nothing stopping you from painting them whatever skin tone you want and there never has been.
As a side note, the mutations in the Salamanders gene-seed come from Nocturne's radiation. If you had a batch of gene-seed not from Nocturne then the mutation wouldn't be present or it would develop less severely.
The Raven Guard mutation makes the Astartes pale but again this is a process that takes time and won't turn every single Astartes with Raven Guard gene-seed into the same pale skinned person.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/23 11:06:06


Post by: H.B.M.C.


He'stan = He's Tan?

That's a stretch guys.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/23 11:26:10


Post by: posermcbogus


Hands in the air, I saw someone else post that a while back, and it made sense to me. Poked around online and there's nothing that backs it up. However i am absolutely happy to die on the hill that GW have historically been crap at diversity, making the salamanders thing be "they have coal black skin" instead of literally any other visual representation of heatproof - considering they had already been protrayed as dark-skinned - was a lame misstep and also the white scars are allover the place visually, and rarely draw any consistant inspiration from actual accurate historical sources in the way that, say, ultramarines have.

Of all 3 the primarchs that aren't white, one is red, one is chaos black spray black.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/23 11:45:41


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Well my old colleague who many moons ago worked at the studio always maintained the sallies were a poor black sterotype and written as such (slow reflexes etc.). It was only when the studio became more aware of such stuff that they started to revise some of the ethno-national shorthand they had quickly written in earlier (a useful trick, but not if the underlying sterotypes the audience have are negative), with managers and editors getting better at raising such questions about existing background.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/23 15:38:18


Post by: Pacific


 Nevelon wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:
Well, tell you what- you and I will have to respectfully disagree.

I suppose I shouldn't have brought game content in background thread in the first place, though I hadn't expected an immediate response shutting down 4 armies and alienating all the players who love them just because "You can always ally with good ole, run of the mill space marines"

I play 25 PL Deathwatch- it's twelve infantry models- A Watchmaster leading a Proteus team of 5 and Kyria Draxus leading a Fortis Team of five.

Funny thing about that little force? Even as small as it is, it's still better for having a supplement. Ninth ed isn't exclusively about 2k battles anymore.

Anyway, like I said, not the right forum to talk about the game anyway. Peace out.


Sorry, my bad here.

It’s one of those things that crosses over background and rules for me. And a bit of a hot button. IMHO things like grey knights and deathwatch have a mystique of being elite and special. Or should. Seeing them deployed army-strength in pickup games lessens that for me. As an old timer, it remember before they got the full army treatment, and that’s the vision I like to have for them. Now they feel like they are just silver marines or black armored marines with some special rules. I know they still have the background and lore, but it’s all intertwined with what I see on the table

I do recognize that the ship has sailed. Newer players (and that’s most people) have a completely different vision of these armies. And that’s OK. I don’t advocate the squatting of anyone’s army, but there are some I wish were never fleshed out to that level.



Yes I feel the same way. I still remember that old Marine vs. Chaos Epic battle report, and I think that planted the seed in my head about how those 'elite of the elite' forces should operate. In that game, during the battle the Grey Knights teleported in just to take out Magnus the Red (Daemon Primarch) and cast him back into the warp, while the rest of the battle was taking place around them.

Having them teleport in to take on some cultists who have been dabbling with a naughty book they found in Cultist Dave's attic lessens the impact somewhat I feel

But, I understand people wanting to have the coolest forces/nicest miniature representation of them, and that applies to a lot of the miniature range. Remember seeing a little 'dawn patrol' 40k game (800pts or something, in an old edition) where some Imperial Guardsmen happened to come across the living embodiment of Khaine, the Avatar! Obviously the Eldar had carried out that once-in-a-generation ritual to summon forth their war god, as that group of poor Imperial Guardsmen that were out on patrol on the backwater planet of Talmasci IV absolutely had to die!


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/23 21:45:22


Post by: Insectum7


 Gert wrote:
How is it weird?
It's weird that GW chose to expunge/retcon one of their very few earlier depictions of a non-white marine.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/08/24 19:17:46


Post by: PenitentJake


 Ketara wrote:


This. I don't object to Guilliman getting back from his spa weekend, I don't have a problem with Abbadon going on his annual hike out of the eye. I don't mind the stories and campaigns which surround that sort of thing. 'Professional wrestling', as Da Boss so eloquently put it, does have its own charms.

The problem for me is that it's crowded out everything else. There's no longer any room in the official 40K narrative for the Average Joe human. The Yarricks, the Cains, the Gaunts, the Eisenhorns, the Creeds, the Macharius, the Slaydo. Normal humans only exist now as a sort of narrative companion and plot enabler to the main superhuman named characters. You'll never get another Armageddon campaign, because the Imperial side of the story needs to be told from the viewpoint of Primarised Calgar/Dante/whatever. The Space Marines have effectively taken over the story, and in line with that, the Primarch-centric story of 30K has morphed into being over and above it.

The Grim Adventures of High Commander [insert name here] to stop the evil machinations of Chaos Lord/Archon/O' [insert name here] will never be of relevance beyond a footnote on the timeline, because they're not named characters. And that's a shame, because so very many of the now -named- characters came from that sort of beginning.


This may very well be true of BL faction, and we'll certainly see how many "normals" feature in WH+ animations.

In terms of the game, I think this is something Crusade was meant to address. Named characters are the equivalents of Heroic and Legendary level generic HQ's- the difference is that the named are already heroic or legendary out of the box, so they've already received battle honours, which are reflected in their datacard abilities and wargear. They can't actually grow any further, so it isn't really all that fun to include them in a Crusade.

By contrast, generic characters can look forward to at least 4 battle honours as they grow, and you're free to load them up with Requisition Strats which become permanent when purchased with requisition points. Some of the Battle Honours associated with the Charadon campaign are also directly linked to the stories of the campaign. Yes, this does mean that Jeff the Platoon Commander can become the "Liberator of Feiror" while the mighty Commissar Yarrick or even the mightier Roboute Guilliman cannot.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/06 10:54:33


Post by: Horla


Since coming back, the one change that really sticks out for me is the appearance of the Tau. I don't get them at all, they don't fit in my vision of 40K (though the fluff has moved on a lot as this thread highlights) and I don't like the mech/drone style that's somewhere between anime and Star Wars. There's loads of anime and Star Wars out there already, 40K doesn't need it.

That said, I've no idea what would make a good new faction that isn't a derivative of an existing faction so I suppose it's good that GW put something novel into the universe.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/12 15:21:48


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 Insectum7 wrote:
pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah you’re 100% mistaken because there is no old background for the race or skin tone of the Salamanders or Vulkan.
When Salamanders were first released into 40k as part of Codex: Armageddon, the depictions of them had them with dark skin (natural/african) rather than the unnatural coal black they are now.


The earliest depiction of the Salamanders' skin I can think of was the Space Marine Painting Guide in the Space Marine Paint Set from about 1990; there, they had "ordinary" dark skin, with blond hair (pre-dating Wesley Snipes in Demolition Man), Later on, on the cover of the Battle For Armageddon board game, the two Salamanders on the cover were white. In Codex: Armageddon, there are two Salamanders models shown with their helmets off - the white squad sergeant and the "ordinary" black captain (again, with blond hair). Not sure what was in the 4th edition Codex: Space Marines, but by 5th edition they "have jet-black skin and burning red eyes".


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/12 19:26:26


Post by: Nevelon


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah you’re 100% mistaken because there is no old background for the race or skin tone of the Salamanders or Vulkan.
When Salamanders were first released into 40k as part of Codex: Armageddon, the depictions of them had them with dark skin (natural/african) rather than the unnatural coal black they are now.


The earliest depiction of the Salamanders' skin I can think of was the Space Marine Painting Guide in the Space Marine Paint Set from about 1990; there, they had "ordinary" dark skin, with blond hair (pre-dating Wesley Snipes in Demolition Man), Later on, on the cover of the Battle For Armageddon board game, the two Salamanders on the cover were white. In Codex: Armageddon, there are two Salamanders models shown with their helmets off - the white squad sergeant and the "ordinary" black captain (again, with blond hair). Not sure what was in the 4th edition Codex: Space Marines, but by 5th edition they "have jet-black skin and burning red eyes".


I just checked my 4th ed marine codex. There is one un-helmeted salamander in the back “examples of people’s armies” section, so might not be 100% cannon. But he's a normal human, albeit dark, skin-tone.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/13 08:17:45


Post by: Pacific


Many years ago you used to be able to get a Salamanders tactical boxset - I can't remember if it was 2nd or 3rd edition, but remember I was a staffer in early 00's and that was a leftover boxset that was in the backstore. That box had natural black skintone marines as the painted examples on the front of the box, I think I did put it out on the shelves at the time as it was kind of cool and stood out from the other releases (perhaps other than Easterlings for LoTR which was the game that was super popular at the time) - and I guess things went a bit backwards after that by introducing the coal black and red eye unnatural look afterwards. I absolutely don't think it was intentional by GW it was just an indicator of the demographic that both developed the games and their customers, and there wasn't the thought that a kid from some other ethnic group might come into a store and want some supermen to collect that looked like him or her.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/17 13:16:32


Post by: some bloke


the single biggest change I've hated, above all others?

"no model, no rules".

As an ork player who loved model making, my eyes lit up when I realised that you could make a big mek on a warbike with a shokk attack gun. and I made it. Then GW got rid, because "there's no model". Can't be a sales based decision (at least, not by anyone intelligent), as to make one, I would need to buy 2 kits (SAG kit, and a warbiker kit), probably plus greenstuff!

Looted vehicles, mega armoured warbosses, wazdakka, all casualties of the "no model, no rules" rubbish.

Then it got worse - deffkilla wartrikes can't have powerklaws, because they didn't include them in the kit. Why would a warboss want a sub-par CC weapon, just because they're on a trike?

Then they go inconsistent, and give trukks the option of a grabbin' klaw?

Yeah, all in all it's the philosophy of "if we don't make that exact model, it must not be possible!" in GW which has made me less interested over recent years. I used to look for what I can convert - now every option is available, but not because they made them all - because they took away the ones which weren't.

Not entirely fluff, but as the game is meant to represent the fluff, it seems off that a warboss would pass on good armour (now corrected in new 'dex) or a decent weapon based on... well, nothing really.


for just fluff, I'm still not sold on newcrons. Even though they're old now.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/17 16:52:32


Post by: Nurglitch


I miss morale, pinning, going to ground, and psychology.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/17 21:30:28


Post by: mrFickle


I miss blast templates, I just liked the aesthetic they added to the game. Especially Gorks footprint


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/18 14:39:15


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Other, perhaps controversial things I miss?

Vehicle and Tyranid Design Rules.

As a theory? Wonderful, wonderful stuff. Harking right back to the very beginning of 40K, where providing rules for home brew vehicles, robots and that was necessary, due to GW’s limited capacity to produce such kits.

They were intended as a way for modellers to do just whatever they flipping pleased in terms of conversions, and then be able to field them. Absolutely bugger all wrong with that.

The trouble? Was us. They sadly proved why the player base cannot be trusted. For every “I made a random conversion, now I field it”, was someone math hammering the intent behind the rules into oblivion, exploiting the system to create stronger for cheaper, or replacing deliberate gaps in their army with a vehicle.

I’d still like them back all the same.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/18 14:52:30


Post by: Nevelon


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Other, perhaps controversial things I miss?

Vehicle and Tyranid Design Rules.

As a theory? Wonderful, wonderful stuff. Harking right back to the very beginning of 40K, where providing rules for home brew vehicles, robots and that was necessary, due to GW’s limited capacity to produce such kits.

They were intended as a way for modellers to do just whatever they flipping pleased in terms of conversions, and then be able to field them. Absolutely bugger all wrong with that.

The trouble? Was us. They sadly proved why the player base cannot be trusted. For every “I made a random conversion, now I field it”, was someone math hammering the intent behind the rules into oblivion, exploiting the system to create stronger for cheaper, or replacing deliberate gaps in their army with a vehicle.

I’d still like them back all the same.


With great flexibility come great responsibility.

Any time you add customization you add potential for abuse. Also seen in the 4th edition “build a chapter” rules. Which had the potential to be a lot of fun, but ended up being people trading away the option for things they were not going to use anyway to power up the stuff they brought to the table.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/18 14:56:30


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Same with the 3.5 Daemon Prince rules.

I loved the concept, but so many were just never used.

It’s a real shame, especially given Narrative Gaming is once again “official”. Being back VDR, TDR and DPDR for narrative only.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/18 15:18:46


Post by: Nevelon


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Same with the 3.5 Daemon Prince rules.

I loved the concept, but so many were just never used.

It’s a real shame, especially given Narrative Gaming is once again “official”. Being back VDR, TDR and DPDR for narrative only.


They kind of did with the build a hero/LR thing. That was 8th? One of those fun sounding things that never got used.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/19 11:07:23


Post by: Lord Damocles


It isn't as though GW shouldn't have learned their lesson from 2nd ed. vehicle design rules - 2pt Land Raiders!


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/20 23:26:13


Post by: Hecaton


Jarms48 wrote:
What's the biggest thing I dislike?

The gradual shift the setting has had from grimdark to nobledark. Just read through the 3rd edition rulebook and look at the artwork, then compare it to the 9th edition lore and art.


Yup, this is it, but enough of the "we genocide people who look different" has stayed in to where, absent context, you'd think GW was supporting genocidal fascism, with is protagonists being exemplars of that system.

Again, why the setting works best as (dark) satire.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/22 20:34:08


Post by: Rosebuddy


 Nevelon wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
pelicaniforce wrote:
Yeah you’re 100% mistaken because there is no old background for the race or skin tone of the Salamanders or Vulkan.
When Salamanders were first released into 40k as part of Codex: Armageddon, the depictions of them had them with dark skin (natural/african) rather than the unnatural coal black they are now.


The earliest depiction of the Salamanders' skin I can think of was the Space Marine Painting Guide in the Space Marine Paint Set from about 1990; there, they had "ordinary" dark skin, with blond hair (pre-dating Wesley Snipes in Demolition Man), Later on, on the cover of the Battle For Armageddon board game, the two Salamanders on the cover were white. In Codex: Armageddon, there are two Salamanders models shown with their helmets off - the white squad sergeant and the "ordinary" black captain (again, with blond hair). Not sure what was in the 4th edition Codex: Space Marines, but by 5th edition they "have jet-black skin and burning red eyes".


I just checked my 4th ed marine codex. There is one un-helmeted salamander in the back “examples of people’s armies” section, so might not be 100% cannon. But he's a normal human, albeit dark, skin-tone.


I just leafed through the Armageddon codex and on the inside of the cover it's got a picture of their full Salamander army, which has 10 unhelmeted dudes. 8 of them are paler, I guess it's hard to say they're exactly white due to the level of zoom but the remaining two are very obviously brown.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Other, perhaps controversial things I miss?

Vehicle and Tyranid Design Rules.

As a theory? Wonderful, wonderful stuff. Harking right back to the very beginning of 40K, where providing rules for home brew vehicles, robots and that was necessary, due to GW’s limited capacity to produce such kits.

They were intended as a way for modellers to do just whatever they flipping pleased in terms of conversions, and then be able to field them. Absolutely bugger all wrong with that.

The trouble? Was us. They sadly proved why the player base cannot be trusted. For every “I made a random conversion, now I field it”, was someone math hammering the intent behind the rules into oblivion, exploiting the system to create stronger for cheaper, or replacing deliberate gaps in their army with a vehicle.

I’d still like them back all the same.


The rules were tuned such that replicating an already existing vehicle would always make it more expensive, and afaik made a decent job at that, so what could you actually make cheaper? Land Raiders seem an obvious choice since you could just strip the twinned lascannons and probably have points over, but regular Land Raiders were pretty bad in 3rd ed anyway.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/25 08:37:22


Post by: Grimtuff


I'd like to know too, as that was not my experience with those rules. The rules also said everything had to be modelled, you couldn't just rock up with a unconverted IG tank and say it is your VDR creation. Vast majority of stuff came out more expensive than it would normally be.

The only one I ever saw that abused the rules and wasn't hampered by points (and thankfully never made, this was just theorycrafting) was a Nid creation that was nicknamed "The Turd". It was a gargantuan creature that was 48" wide and a couple of inches long and just sat in front of the army, being immune to most small arms fire.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/25 11:39:41


Post by: Rosebuddy


One way you could make a very silly vehicle was to pack it full with small arms. 40+ storm bolters or w/e would pretty much delete anything not immune to S4 through sheer weight of probability.

You were supposed to fully model it but I can see some playgroups being a bit looser with that.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/25 12:16:29


Post by: Nevelon


WYSWYG is a reality check for some of the nonsense that comes out of those kind of systems. You have to commit to the absurdity. You knew it was broken when you theory-crafted it, but actually cutting up kits and glueing stuff together to kit bash something you know is based on ephemeral transient rules is a big step.

It separates the “I built something awesome and want to play it” from the “I designed something broken and want to win with it”

Don’t get me wrong, building broken vehicles and seeing who’s is the most broken is a lot of fun. I played Car Wars for years, and that’s the whole point of that game. But its core is vehicle design, not just a fun VDR set slapped on the side of an otherwise set of established units/rules.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/25 13:02:24


Post by: Grimtuff


Rosebuddy wrote:
One way you could make a very silly vehicle was to pack it full with small arms. 40+ storm bolters or w/e would pretty much delete anything not immune to S4 through sheer weight of probability.


*Looks over at Looted Wagon filled with Burnaboyz for 5th ed open-topped shooting shenanigans...

Nope, not sure what you're talking about, that's a daft idea!


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/25 13:47:27


Post by: Dekskull



I played in the Eye of Terror Campaign back in the early 2000s. So I was a little annoyed when they ret-conned the results of that campaign in favor of the new setting.

That said, at least they didn't completely blow up the setting like they did with Warhammer Fantasy.

Truth of the matter is I don't really mind what they did. It's good to see some movement in the narrative after all these years. I just wish they had done so in a way that respected the player base and prior canon.. I.E. Why couldn't Abaddon have waited another hundred years and then blow up Cadia? At least the players would have felt like they bought the Imperium some time.

Also, how many events can possibly happen in year 999 M41. Let's get on with the 42nd Millennium already!


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/25 14:02:01


Post by: Lord Damocles


 Dekskull wrote:
Also, how many events can possibly happen in year 999 M41. Let's get on with the 42nd Millennium already!

And then we can cram an insane number of events into the first few years of the new millenium!


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/25 15:10:54


Post by: Just Tony


 Nevelon wrote:
WYSWYG is a reality check for some of the nonsense that comes out of those kind of systems. You have to commit to the absurdity. You knew it was broken when you theory-crafted it, but actually cutting up kits and glueing stuff together to kit bash something you know is based on ephemeral transient rules is a big step.

It separates the “I built something awesome and want to play it” from the “I designed something broken and want to win with it”

Don’t get me wrong, building broken vehicles and seeing who’s is the most broken is a lot of fun. I played Car Wars for years, and that’s the whole point of that game. But its core is vehicle design, not just a fun VDR set slapped on the side of an otherwise set of established units/rules.


The people in my club were contributing thise garbage 2nd edition plastic bolters to my 100 bolter tank. Never underestimate players' committment


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/25 16:27:07


Post by: Racerguy180


 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Dekskull wrote:
Also, how many events can possibly happen in year 999 M41. Let's get on with the 42nd Millennium already!

And then we can cram an insane number of events into the first few years of the new millenium!


And that's bad?


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/25 23:47:02


Post by: Iracundus


 Dekskull wrote:

I played in the Eye of Terror Campaign back in the early 2000s. So I was a little annoyed when they ret-conned the results of that campaign in favor of the new setting.

That said, at least they didn't completely blow up the setting like they did with Warhammer Fantasy.

Truth of the matter is I don't really mind what they did. It's good to see some movement in the narrative after all these years. I just wish they had done so in a way that respected the player base and prior canon.. I.E. Why couldn't Abaddon have waited another hundred years and then blow up Cadia? At least the players would have felt like they bought the Imperium some time.

Also, how many events can possibly happen in year 999 M41. Let's get on with the 42nd Millennium already!


Why should the players have bought time? The Imperium lost the Eye of Terror worldwide campaign.

They did sort of incorporate certain cherry picked things like Mordax Prime being taken over by Orks.

Overall the campaign could easily have been integrated into the new Rift plan as the campaign ended with Chaos winning and Cadia about to fall, and similarly I am a bit disappointed they did not. They could have tweaked the ending of the campaign though and it would have led into the events of the Gathering Storm anyway. Creed under siege was basically one step onwards from the end of the EoT campaign which was him pulling a Dunkirk like retreat. One could have segued into the other relatively seamlessly without any need for time jump.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/26 07:04:16


Post by: Lord Damocles


Racerguy180 wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Dekskull wrote:
Also, how many events can possibly happen in year 999 M41. Let's get on with the 42nd Millennium already!

And then we can cram an insane number of events into the first few years of the new millenium!


And that's bad?

It's the exact same problem, just with a different date.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/26 08:24:14


Post by: Iracundus


GW has "solved" that problem by throwing out the dating system. More specifically by invoking the timey wimey distortion of the warp and its differing effects on different places in the galaxy, and by saying Guilliman discovered that so many inaccuracies had crept into the old Imperial dating system that it was unclear whether it was the 41st or 42nd millenium given the wide window of possible error.

The problem is that as readers it makes it hard to piece together a coherent chronology of things, except in the vaguest terms. We know for example Guilliman sets off on his Indomitus Crusade and the various fleets set off at different times. We know that some novels take place after others, but how much later is very fuzzy.

Personally, I think it's GW and it's whole "can't be bothered" attitude towards details and timeline so they just invented an in-universe reason to handwave away discrepancies and inaccuracies.



Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/26 12:27:54


Post by: cygnnus


Rosebuddy wrote:
One way you could make a very silly vehicle was to pack it full with small arms. 40+ storm bolters or w/e would pretty much delete anything not immune to S4 through sheer weight of probability.

You were supposed to fully model it but I can see some playgroups being a bit looser with that.


Or worse, you could build it with massed Necron gauss rifles. Not as many shots at >12”, but could Glance anything to death through rolling so many chances at 6’s…

Valete,

JohnS


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/27 02:21:51


Post by: Dekskull


Iracundus wrote:
 Dekskull wrote:

I played in the Eye of Terror Campaign back in the early 2000s. So I was a little annoyed when they ret-conned the results of that campaign in favor of the new setting.



Why should the players have bought time? The Imperium lost the Eye of Terror worldwide campaign.


Them's be fighting words!

Chaos definitely outplayed the Imperials. But there was a flaw in the campaign design that led to a weird result. During the campaign you could post your battle results to a "sector" or to individual planets. (GW's biggest mistake in setting up the campaign). Chaos/disorder targeted individual planets brilliantly, and made huge progress on several key worlds, but at the end of the campaign, the Imperium still dominated "Sector" control. I also think Cadia itself was pretty much tied at the end.

So GW came up with this idea that the Imperium kept control of the space lanes and used that advantage to cut off chaos reinforcements and stop Abaddon from taking Cadia, but that in the process, Chaos had conquered a bunch of worlds and was threatening many others. So it was kind of a "draw" in its own way.

In any case, better to let bygones be bygones. Onward to the 42nd millennium, or is it still 999 M41? LOL






Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/27 04:59:21


Post by: Iracundus


 Dekskull wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
 Dekskull wrote:

I played in the Eye of Terror Campaign back in the early 2000s. So I was a little annoyed when they ret-conned the results of that campaign in favor of the new setting.



Why should the players have bought time? The Imperium lost the Eye of Terror worldwide campaign.


Them's be fighting words!

Chaos definitely outplayed the Imperials. But there was a flaw in the campaign design that led to a weird result. During the campaign you could post your battle results to a "sector" or to individual planets. (GW's biggest mistake in setting up the campaign). Chaos/disorder targeted individual planets brilliantly, and made huge progress on several key worlds, but at the end of the campaign, the Imperium still dominated "Sector" control. I also think Cadia itself was pretty much tied at the end.

So GW came up with this idea that the Imperium kept control of the space lanes and used that advantage to cut off chaos reinforcements and stop Abaddon from taking Cadia, but that in the process, Chaos had conquered a bunch of worlds and was threatening many others. So it was kind of a "draw" in its own way.

In any case, better to let bygones be bygones. Onward to the 42nd millennium, or is it still 999 M41? LOL


That's Imperial sore loser denialism. There was nothing weird about the campaign and again that has been the insinuation and disinformation over the years by those that could not stand losing or that never understood the campaign mechanics, which allowed for a smaller faction to still win against a more numerous faction if they posted their wins carefully. Cadia was not tied at the end. It was more under the control of Chaos after originally starting out at 95% Imperial Control and ending up at 39.8%. It is only ever been about this one and only one worldwide campaign where the Imperium did not win that there has been this kind of misinformation and denial about the result. It's poor sportsmanship to be honest.

The entire campaign results, offical result from Aus WD 287, sector and planet breakdown percentages, as well as event cards plus the date they were played (taken from the old campaign website), are posted verbatim here from the article by Andy Chambers:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392010.page


Victory for Chaos! Not a complete victory, the forces of Order have held the line in many places and Cadia itself still defies the Arch Warmaster Abaddon. But nonetheless over eight weeks the forces ot Disorder have consistently out-fought and out-manoeuvred their opponents across the warzones of the Eye of Terror.

WD 287, Death by a Thousand Cuts by Andy Chambers


Forces of Disorder minor victory. A minor victory is not a draw. Winning a football game by 1 point is not a draw. If you lose a 40K game, accept the loss, shake hands,and move on. It's poor sportsmanship to claim a loss was a draw or that the other side only won by cheating (the other most common accusation I have seen with regard to the campaign). "If I win it is fair. If I lose it's because you cheated!" That's the kind of attitude I object to.

The day by day fluctuations in control are also archived here as further evidence, along with other admissions by Forces of Order players about the course of the campaign and the serious mistakes made by the Forces of Order:
http://web.archive.org/web/20031015103118/http://hipcat.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/27 13:56:34


Post by: Dysartes


Iracundus wrote:
Winning a football game by 1 point is not a draw.

...there are no points in football - there are goals.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/27 15:35:03


Post by: Aash


 Dysartes wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
Winning a football game by 1 point is not a draw.

...there are no points in football - there are goals.


Of course you can score points in football, depending on the variation played: association football, rugby football, Gaelic football, American football, Australian rules football….

But on topic, I do remember that the Eye of Terror campaign was announced as a victory for Chaos, and then the disappointment when nothing changed on the background. The whole point of the campaign was that the results would influence the setting.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/27 17:54:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Eye of Terror. Chaos massively benefitted from having quite possibly the most broken and OP Codex ever.

The infamous 3.5 Chaos Codex.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/27 20:29:07


Post by: Lord Damocles


Huh. The Eye of Terror denialism is still going strong it seems...

Aash wrote:
But on topic, I do remember that the Eye of Terror campaign was announced as a victory for Chaos, and then the disappointment when nothing changed on the background. The whole point of the campaign was that the results would influence the setting.

There were changes which persisted - the Tau's Third Sphere expansion, the fall of Mordakka, the rise of Ygethmor, etc. were subsequently referenced.

Where many people went wrong was assuming that 'influencing the setting' would equate to a major upheaval in the overall status quo.

It is however very disappointing that GW just ignored or later altered several major changes like the death of Eldrad for no good storytelling reason (but that's hardly unique to the Eye of Terror campaign).


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/27 20:37:53


Post by: Iracundus


 Lord Damocles wrote:
Huh. The Eye of Terror denialism is still going strong it seems...

Aash wrote:
But on topic, I do remember that the Eye of Terror campaign was announced as a victory for Chaos, and then the disappointment when nothing changed on the background. The whole point of the campaign was that the results would influence the setting.

There were changes which persisted - the Tau's Third Sphere expansion, the fall of Mordakka, the rise of Ygethmor, etc. were subsequently referenced.

Where many people went wrong was assuming that 'influencing the setting' would equate to a major upheaval in the overall status quo.

It is however very disappointing that GW just ignored or later altered several major changes like the death of Eldrad for no good storytelling reason (but that's hardly unique to the Eye of Terror campaign).


What's ironic is that the opening of the Rift is just that kind of major upheaval that GW of that time shied away from. GW could have run with the ending of the Eye of Terror campaign with only some minor modification. Chaos breaking out of the Eye is effectively little different from what we have now with the Rift and Chaos forces now running around outside the Eye.

I don't mind Eldrad not dying now, though don't like how he is the Eldar Ghaz equivalent in that nothing is significant for the Eldar unless he is involved. The Eldar had done the best out of all the non-Imperial factions in the campaign, even though their Webway mini-campaign was one sided in their favor due to player numbers, and it always seemed a douche move for GW to go "Oh you did very well, ok, we'll kill off one of your main characters as reward." They could have done more with the whole reclaiming stuff or territory from the Crone worlds or establishing pockets of sanity within the Eye.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/27 20:44:30


Post by: Lord Damocles


Eldrad coming back would be fine, if there was a reason for him being back (like the waystones plot thread which GW even set up!), rather than just 'He's back, and now he wants to destroy the infinity circuits. Deal with it'.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/09/28 05:04:22


Post by: Insectum7


 cygnnus wrote:
Rosebuddy wrote:
One way you could make a very silly vehicle was to pack it full with small arms. 40+ storm bolters or w/e would pretty much delete anything not immune to S4 through sheer weight of probability.

You were supposed to fully model it but I can see some playgroups being a bit looser with that.


Or worse, you could build it with massed Necron gauss rifles. Not as many shots at >12”, but could Glance anything to death through rolling so many chances at 6’s…

Valete,

JohnS
The Necron VDR rules were so evocative and rad (and potentially broken). The one that forced Night Fighting rules against the vehicle in particular. Imagine a huge, titan-killing floating death war machine that you couldn't shoot at.


Calling all old timers @ 2021/10/09 22:20:18


Post by: Skribl


 Gert wrote:
Oh, cool another thread where people complain about how much they hate 40k.

Bro thats like 90% of 40k


Calling all old timers @ 2021/10/10 10:25:45


Post by: dubman


Primaris,

is one word not, two i think


@PenitentJake


yeah, i think the GW should strengthen a bit


the game is far from perfection today, its more like a battle game, than a strategy miniature


because, it never happens that , a model is behind enemy line, and plays role without being attacked


i mean, game lacks the strategy


also, i think the range of miniatures is only about space marines, i wish to see new armies








Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ad Mech lost the Canticles , i really liked this army

Tau has lost alot of mobility , after removing from this army ability to make additional move during advancement phase


Necron has gain new models and the command protocols , which look very much like canticles


from 7th edition to, 9th the Tau has the biggest loses in advantages



i dont want to critisize GW strategy in game direction , where this game goes


but, if the strongest army was Tau, then the game politics was saying to improve tau, not bring it to the ground and demolish , the whole army to prove that Tau is just no good


i really liked Ad Mech, the kataphron destroyers, this unit is incredible, this army was really very cool in 7th edition


but, the rules in 8th edition was making the weapon choice , strange


it looks like, weapons that Ad Mech , had are much less deadly now



i stick to the , calculation that 1000 points, is really alot to count and building so big armies proves that game is a bit broken

too strong