Interested to understand why you would never take them and if it’s because they are useless to build a good list can you answer the following question:
Does GW try to make every unit in the codex usable, even if that requires different styles of play, or are some unit just filler?
Ophydian Destroyers sit in an awkward middle ground between 5-man Flayed One units that you can throw onto the opponent's side of the board for points and "real" melee threats that you're willing to invest more into making work. Necrons have so many actually good choices for melee right now that I don't really know what they'd do to make Ophydians more appealing that wouldn't require writing new rules.
Scourges from the Drukhari codex. Some people use them, but I think they're too expensive for a unit that can be wiped off the table so easily. If their first volley of shots as they drop from the sky doesn't take out something big, they won't have the opportunity to make their points back. I don't think they should be removed, though; just reworked.
The Triumph of Saint Katherine, from the Sisters of Battle codex. Not necessarily bad, but it has just too many special rules. Also it looks like a pain in the ass to build and paint.
Deathstrike, from the Imperial Guard codex. For obvious reasons.
And sometimes it's just a matter of aesthetics. I don't like the look of the Taurox transport, Ogryns or Bullgryns (Imperial Guard) or any of the haemonculus units such as Wracks, Grotesques and Talos (Drukhari). No matter how good they get, it is unlikely that I will ever buy and play them.
He should not exist in 40k at all. They had to retcon his entire background (which was a massive point of contention when it was first hinted at in the 5th ed GK codex, 'member that?) to make it so he could be in 40k, also in the process removing Typhus' raison d'etre.
I don't care how good they make him. I refuse to use primarchs in 40k to begin with, let alone one that was established through years of lore to be holed up sulking on the Plague Planet then they throw that out the window because money.
Ogryns. I love them so much, but they have stunk since 4th Ed onwards. They should just combine Ogryn and Bullgryn into one unit and let them mix and match weapon options/armor. Taking a ripper gun with slab shield or flak armor with a CCW should both be able to be done.
Vespid are a race I want to like, but they need more than one unit.
For Orks probably not the Gorka/Morkanauts. Never liked the way they looked (not Orky enough) and I don't think they add enough to the Ork lineup to warrant a kitbash/scratch build. I also don't find the Beast Snaggas or whatever they are called worthwhile for my deffskull/blitzkrieg inspired army.
Tau it would be the Stormsurge. Absolutely hate the thing and what it represents to the original Tau lore. Tau'nar is also included in this as well.
As a Daemon player it's pretty easy: everything that’s not Nurgle
For my DG it's the Predator. Fluffwize, before 8th the Vindicator was the only tank in wide use of the Legion, so the Predator for me is a strange choice to be in the Codex, especially since the Plagueburst Crawler does the same Job.
In my CSM, again, Berzerkers, Rubrics and Noise Marines don't fit the Purge theme.
With Orks, well, all the vehicles. I do Snakebites and never liked the look of Ork vehicles and walkers. I'll take some mangler squigs as deff dreads and use the gnaw killabots from Kromlech, but GW's Ork vehicles? Nah...
Arachnofiend wrote: Ophydian Destroyers sit in an awkward middle ground between 5-man Flayed One units that you can throw onto the opponent's side of the board for points and "real" melee threats that you're willing to invest more into making work. Necrons have so many actually good choices for melee right now that I don't really know what they'd do to make Ophydians more appealing that wouldn't require writing new rules.
Agreed. Also, and from the same codex:
Plasmancer and Psychomancer - Useless HQ models that have MUCH better variants in the Technomancer and Chronomancer. They just don't seem to have a purpose. It's like they wanted MW generating / psycher-likes without anything else for them to do. I want to like them, I really do.
Monoliths - Just too damn expensive, no Quantum Shielding or Fly, Lord of War slot, Titanic. These are in a SERIOUS suck position this edition.
Nightscythe/Doomscythe- Too expensive and too easy to kill. No Quantum Shielding. Supersonic and a single pivot REALLY hurts them on the smaller maps
Triarch Stalker - Just... no. This thing is HOT GARBAGE. The nerf to Targeting relay was unnecessary and they are in a hotly contested role as Elites.
Canoptek Plasmacyte - serves absolutely no purpose. Giving a single unit +1 attack with a chance of killing a multi-wound model in that unit outright is just... stupid design
Anything Tesla or D6 shots/damage- personally I don't think Tesla weapons have a purpose in the current meta and the D6 shots/damage weapons are way too swingy for my tastes.
Aside from these, the obvious Obelisk should go without saying, but.... yeah. Obelisk.
Those aside there are some GREAT units in the codex, at least, great for necrons. Hexmark Destroyer is FANTASTIC with a Gauntlet of the Conflagrator. Royal Warden is great with Mephrit Dynasty and their super special gauss relic. Tomb Blades are a surprise good unit that I've had some success with, especially with a 3+ save and ignores cover.
Space Marine Bikes. Never liked them much. If I wanted Space Marines who were fast, I figured that jump packs or transports or Drop Pods were much cooler than bikes.
Not to mention how much I've always quite disliked the whole "you're riding a bike so you're tougher" mechanic.
For my Guardsmen, I've never loved Ogryns.
For Sisters, I don't exactly want Priests or any of the things like Crusaders or Arco-Flagellants in my force - those things should be for more of an "Imperial agents" vibe.
In my Tau, I wouldn't take Vespids. They just don't interest me, in the same way that I don't take Ethereals.
The general gist of things for me is that I don't care for their gameplay power. I care much more about how much I just like the design, fluff, or general feeling of the unit.
From an "it just isn't good" perspective: Warpsmith, Exalted Champion, Mutilators, Vindicator, Predator, and Land Raider.
From a "not in my Night Lords", because it doesn't fit into the theme of my army, perspective: No daemons, daemon engines, cult marines, Possessed, Hellbrutes (the unit, not the keyword), Obliterators, Mutilators, Chaos Spawn, or Daemon Princes. Basically nothing mutated or daemonic besides Warp Talons, which are just Raptors that have gone a long way down the path of the Raptor Cult.
For my wolves, I'd probably use any unit at some point if I owned them, besides some of the special characters. Mostly, as I like to use my own characters.
For my chaos knights and harlequins there are so few units, and I think all in either book are valid choices.
For CSM, I don't know why anyone would ever use Mutilators. They are slow CC units that have some of the ugliest models in the game. They should just legends them already, as I have never once seen them used either in person or on the internet (See if you can find a YouTube battle repot that uses them, I would love to see that). In fact, does anyone own one these? Anyone? I also think the Master of Executions is stupid, did CSM really need another CCHQ unit? I don't think they should eliminate that one though, and if someone likes him I would be glad to hear it (although I don't think I have ever seen this model used either)
For TS, I use basically everything since there is not really much to choose from.
For Daemons, I play Tzeentch, so don't own other daemons, but I would use them if I expanded my collection. However, I will never ever ever buy Brimstone Horrors. I have been playing Tzeentch themed armies for over a decade and the split was always pink to blue. These models are totally unnecessary and added nothing of value except too cheap scoring units (blues already did this but not broken) then a worthless unit after the 6++ nerf. There could have been so many other options that they could have done, but instead just added another type of horror. I will never use these (even when they were broken). Again, if someone likes these, more power to you, but not for me.
Any Primaris unit. I more or less don't see them in the book. I'll probably never take any aircraft other than the Stormraven (someday). I think the models are terrible, but I have a potential conversion in mind for the Stormraven.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Space Marine Bikes. Never liked them much. If I wanted Space Marines who were fast, I figured that jump packs or transports or Drop Pods were much cooler than bikes.
Not to mention how much I've always quite disliked the whole "you're riding a bike so you're tougher" mechanic.
For my Guardsmen, I've never loved Ogryns.
For Sisters, I don't exactly want Priests or any of the things like Crusaders or Arco-Flagellants in my force - those things should be for more of an "Imperial agents" vibe.
In my Tau, I wouldn't take Vespids. They just don't interest me, in the same way that I don't take Ethereals.
The general gist of things for me is that I don't care for their gameplay power. I care much more about how much I just like the design, fluff, or general feeling of the unit.
I find CSM bikes odd, they are exactly the same as SM bikes have no wargear options and are thematically stale. Surely CSM would have put spike and blades on their bikes to chop people up or something.
For my Necrons? I can find a role for anything. The joys of being one of the better internally balanced books. Yes some units are objectively better choices than others, but none egregiously so.
Suffice to say with that Codex, you can go ahead and buy whichever models tickle your pickle, and still end up with a perfectly serviceable and fun army to actually field.
Ophydians are slightly odd ducks. But I appreciate their flexibility. They can add sheer volume, or provide harder hits in support of other units. Definitely got a home in a Destroyer Cult army.
Hexmark Destroyers? They’re just fun to use. Loadsa shooting, and only takes a slightly lucky roll for them do some decently useful damage.
My experience of 8e/9e is that I get run over by external balance problems far more than internal balance problems. I wouldn't pick out one unit in my Alpha Legion army that I wouldn't take over any other unit, but I'd absolutely pick out the CSM book as a whole Codex I wouldn't take over pretty much any other Codex in the game right now.
He should not exist in 40k at all. They had to retcon his entire background (which was a massive point of contention when it was first hinted at in the 5th ed GK codex, 'member that?) to make it so he could be in 40k, also in the process removing Typhus' raison d'etre.
I don't care how good they make him. I refuse to use primarchs in 40k to begin with, let alone one that was established through years of lore to be holed up sulking on the Plague Planet then they throw that out the window because money.
He should not exist in 40k at all. They had to retcon his entire background (which was a massive point of contention when it was first hinted at in the 5th ed GK codex, 'member that?) to make it so he could be in 40k, also in the process removing Typhus' raison d'etre.
I don't care how good they make him. I refuse to use primarchs in 40k to begin with, let alone one that was established through years of lore to be holed up sulking on the Plague Planet then they throw that out the window because money.
how did they retcon his background?
I put it in the second paragraph. But to expand on that, Morty was well established as retreating into the EoT and sulking on the Plague Planet which he sentimentally remodelled to resemble Barbarus. He never left the planet and just moped around, which is the reason for the existence of Typhus. Typhus sees Morty is not doing his duty as Nurgle's champion and spreading Nurgle's gifts throughout the galaxy so he takes it upon himself to perform said task for his patron god. Morty now being active (and always has been, see below) robs Typhus of the entire reason for his existence as a character.
5th ed GK codex comes along and we have Draigo carving his master's initial's into Morty's heart. Believe me, there was quite a kerfuffle around this due to the above with a lot of people asking "Why Morty?". Ward could have picked literally any other Chaos primarch, yet he picks the one that is specifically called out as refusing to leave the EoT.
There isn't really a craftworld unit that I would NEVER play. I don't currently play my avatar of khaine because I have a huge one and the current statline has 8 wounds; the disconnect is very jarring so I don't play it, but I would play it if they just updated the rules to put it at a greater daemon level.
For Tau, I won't play a stormsurge. Think it looks pretty derpy and goes against how I think Tau should really be; working together with several units to take down the foe rather than strapping as many guns as they can to one very slow suit to pound the target into submission. Think that's a very imperial approach to solving problems!
For marines it's a Repulsor. I just do not like the model, nothing more and nothing less.
Sisters of Battle - Paragon warsuits. Don't like the models.
He should not exist in 40k at all. They had to retcon his entire background (which was a massive point of contention when it was first hinted at in the 5th ed GK codex, 'member that?) to make it so he could be in 40k, also in the process removing Typhus' raison d'etre.
I don't care how good they make him. I refuse to use primarchs in 40k to begin with, let alone one that was established through years of lore to be holed up sulking on the Plague Planet then they throw that out the window because money.
how did they retcon his background?
I put it in the second paragraph. But to expand on that, Morty was well established as retreating into the EoT and sulking on the Plague Planet which he sentimentally remodelled to resemble Barbarus. He never left the planet and just moped around, which is the reason for the existence of Typhus. Typhus sees Morty is not doing his duty as Nurgle's champion and spreading Nurgle's gifts throughout the galaxy so he takes it upon himself to perform said task for his patron god. Morty now being active (and always has been, see below) robs Typhus of the entire reason for his existence as a character.
5th ed GK codex comes along and we have Draigo carving his master's initial's into Morty's heart. Believe me, there was quite a kerfuffle around this due to the above with a lot of people asking "Why Morty?". Ward could have picked literally any other Chaos primarch, yet he picks the one that is specifically called out as refusing to leave the EoT.
Don't Magnus, Lorgar, and Fulgrim also do nothing all day? Angron seems like the only active one.
Not sure how desirable it is for Chaos to have these Big Bad Dudes running around but they don't do anything 'cause they're too busy crying at Weenie Hut Jr's.
Well, Magnus is just a big crybaby, Lorgar is meditating, and Fulgrim is doing various slaanesh things. As a fan of Magnus, I don't like the idea of him being active all that much.Don't know what general or specific chaos fans want with their lazy bois, but Angron would be my selection for getting a model, and think Angron (World Eaters) vs. Grey Knights would have been an even cooler box than GK vs TS.
For Death Guard: The units that shouldn't be in the codex: the rhino, predator, land raider and defiler. Not because they shouldn't be in the codex, though. Because rhino chassis look like potatoes, land raiders a slightly larger potato, and a defiler the stick insect that's trying to eat it.
For Sisters of Battle: Nothing! Amazingly, not even the rhino chassis tanks! Just because of all of the mad bling, SoB rhinos, immolators, and exorcists somehow get away with it. Like vajazzled potatoes!
BrianDavion wrote: Anything with one of those annoying inceptor style flight stands. god those things suck
Yeah, best answer in the thread. I love some models with those and so I have them, but whenever I bring them and they break I get so irrationally angry. I don't ever say GW has objectively terrible modeling designs, but it's true for those stands.
Never liked having any in a 40k army from the moment 6E introduced them. They've always had too many funny rules trying to force them into a small scale fight that planes shouldn't be part of. Even now they still don't quite sit right.
Any supreme commander level named character - specifically for the armies I own that means the silent king and morvenn vahl.
The games I play take place in an ongoing narrative campaign in a defined region of space, so for a supreme commander of this type to actually turn up (almost certainly at the head of a massive crusade force intent on that individual's aims) would mean not just the narrative of that game but the entire campaign suddenly having to be all about them. Since these characters are too unique and powerful to represent anyone else but who they actually are the only way around that is to discretely ignore the fact they were there when working the game into the wider narrative. For me that kills the immersion and turns the game into a purely abstract board game rather than a battle that actually took place in the setting.
I also don't like them in game terms for the same reason - they have such a big impact that the game itself becomes largely about them.
How do we feel about things like the Valkyrie/Vulture, or perhaps the Storm Talon and maybe even the Blackstar? In other words, things that are less 'jets' and more 'helicopters'.
It's one thing to have a literal bomber or super-sonic fighter jet, but something more akin to a Blackhawk or a Apache seems more reasonable to me.
With my marines (DA, DW and RG) I don't think there is a single unit that I wouldn't play. Now, I don't have all of the units but nothing screams at me "no way".
For my Eldar (CW and HQ) the story is the same, there is nothing I wouldn't play.
Now, when we get to chaos....that all changes. Someone already covered it, but the Heldrake and Forgefiend are just too terrible to look at. I do have a maulerfiend as that kinda escapes the scrutiny, but not the forgefiend. Also the defiler, so ugly. In fact, chaos vehicles frankly kinda suck in general.
SOB is also pretty decent across the board, although I'd never play the Sanctum...silly concept.
yep, now that I think about it, chaos literally have the worst models in 40K, which is weird because they have the design space to be probably the best. Pretty much the only time you see a great chaos army, it's been heavily converted.
Castigators. I refuse to field it. An unnecessary addition to the army and one that does not even look like it belongs. Just looks like a predator. Lazy arse design.
Mortifiers. Another unnecessary addition and I just don't like the idea of sisters being so faithless and cowardly they even get to this point.
Repentia. New models do nothing for me. Old models fit the lore better. I have 9 of the old metal models but I rarely ever use them and even when I do, it's just to pad out points for very large games.
Morven Vahl (model). I don't like the model and wouldn't ever use it. That said I have got the war pulpit from raging heroes that I'll proxy her with.
How do we feel about things like the Valkyrie/Vulture, or perhaps the Storm Talon and maybe even the Blackstar? In other words, things that are less 'jets' and more 'helicopters'.
It's one thing to have a literal bomber or super-sonic fighter jet, but something more akin to a Blackhawk or a Apache seems more reasonable to me.
Purely arbitrary on my part. I think all of those fall under the "aircrafts" banner. I get that they have a "hover" function for the most part but the models still look pretty aircrafty.
Id have no issue with the Hell Drake though.. That's basically a giant fire breathing demonic mecha-dragon. I shall allow it
As mentioned, Id be happy to field a Vampire Raider if/when I had one painted to a high standard.
I am assuming the question is about rules legal now. If we went by possible OP in the future, then no unit can't be excluded aside for those for factions GW removed from the game and said they would never ever do them again. And I don't think he is OP.
Space Marines (general):
Centurions - I just think these models are crap to look at. I don't buy or use models I don't like, regardless of their rules.
Dark Angels (main force):
No Deathwing, no Ravenwing. It's not that I have anything against those formations, just my DA have always represented 3 Co+.
Space Wolves:
Other than assorted cosmetic bitz - bases, shoulder pads, a current sculpt of a gun here & there, etc - nothing newer than 2e.
The option had to be there in 2e to see inclusion here.
In addition, since this is a pure drop pod/DS force, there'll never be a rhino/razorback,/predator/etc in any version of this list.
The Pods are the current plastic version - the old Armour Cast ones are simply too cumbersome to use/transport & are in storage.
Necrons:
* Flayed Ones - I've never liked the models & still don't. And if I'm going to run a Necron melee unit? It's sure as hell going to be a unit that's better at it than these things. Or at least a unit whose models I like.... Including the nigh useless Ophydian Destroyers
* Clocking in in the almost useless/will almost never use 2nd place - The Canoptic Reanimator! - cool model (I own 2!), practically useless, and there's always something better to spend those points on. Maybe in a campaign game of some sort (not Crusade).
Drukhari:
The actual Drukari.
My ideal list would include zero eeevil space elves. I am forced by the rules to accept either an Archon, a Succubus, or a Homunculi as a HQ choice. Fine. I will place them in Strat reserve, leave them in the case, & treat them as destroyed in most of my games.
I *want* to use every unit in the Craftworlder book, but bad rules mean I only take the following when I'm okay with giving myself a hefty handicap:
* Footlock council: If I want the psychic powers, character warlocks (and spirit seers) do it better/cheaper while retaining character protection. Even if you take chapter tactics etc. to help them get all of their buffs off, they're not *that* killy or durable, and they compete directly with the bike version of their unit if nothing else that takes much better advantage of the defensive buffs while also being arguably easier to deliver. This is a unit that is still in the dog house for invisible death stars in 7th edition.
* Striking Scorpions: Just don't hit very hard even when you take optimal exarch options. They can deepstrike, hide, and sit on objectives, but not *that* well. They're a lot like jump pack assault marines, except they have fewer attacks on the charge, 1 worse Toughness, can't take special guns, move slower before charging, and don't get AP-1 for half the game. And I haven't seen anyone talking up assault marines lately.
(Edit: Oh, and half the wounds now.)
* Storm Guardians: I really want to like them, and I'm trying to make myself use them more. But they've got the durability of a guardsman for almost twice the price. They look like a melee unit, but they have 1 attack each (2 if you take chainswords) at strength 3 AP 0. They can take flamers, but then you'd generally be better off just taking normal guardian defenders; the extra shots will make up for the lack of auto-hitting. To deliver them, you probably need to put them in a transport, but their minimum squad size is 8 meaning they can't share a wave serpent (transport capacity 12) with anything other than characters and very small dark reaper units (min squad size 3). So you end up paying upwards of 200 points on their transport, and you're very aware that the same transport could be transporting a squad of dire avengers plus a second unit.
Honestly, just lowering the min squad size of stormies to 5 (and letting them continue to take 2 special weapons at that size) would do wonders for htem.
Hive Crones.
They seem intended to be the tyranid equivalent of an air superiority fighter, but they're really bad at that. With their primary armament being a S6 heavy flamer, a missile which can with a bit of luck inflict a couple of mortal wounds, and some mediocre melee attacks.
They're basically just a harpy with worse equipment and fewer abilities, for the same price. Harpies are already not very good, but at least they have some reasonably powerful guns, and a couple of interesting support abilities.
Mucolid spores.
Regular spore mines are quite useful. They're an area denial unit, with several methods of dotting them around the battlefield to hinder the movement of enemy models.
Mucolid spores are just bigger spore mines, which lack a good method of being generated. You can either generate them from a sporocyst (which has its own problems at the moment), or buy them in your list.
If you want a spore mine that deals damage, then Meiotic spores are a more efficient option. If you want move blockers, then regular spore mines are better at the job, due to you being able to throw them across the table with biovores and set up a wall of several of them.
Mucolid spores sit somewhere in between those options, and are outclassed by both.
I dabble in all things Chaos but there's a few things I steer clear of.
Mutilators are the obvious ones. Bad models, bad rules.
I own Chaos Bikes but have never brought myself to actually use them. They're a boring unit with outdated models and now there are no Chaos HQs on bikes (outside Legends) there's nothing interesting about them at all.
I despise the Khorne Blood Throne/Skull Cannon. It's just such a weak kit, which is unfortunate because I think it COULD be something cool. But it isn't.
For Thousand Sons it would have to be the Tzaangor Enlightened. I like the models and they seem pretty solid on paper, but they just don't fit. The monetary cost of them hurts my soul a bit too...
xerxeskingofking wrote: Custodes wardens: a "veteran " option in a super elite army, and overshadowed by other options in the elite slot. Their is basically to point to them.
yeah I bought a pack of wardens, but it was just to make a fancier sheild captain
In my Eldar force:
Guardians - I just don't like them and I want my force to be specialized guys only...
For my Marine Force:
Firstborn and Vehicles - it's just personal preference and self inflicted fluffiness.
And for my sweet T'au lists:
Vespid and Kroot - I'd really like to field them and have them spread the lore of the greater good, but I despise the modells. Wasn't able to find fitting alternatives yet...
Space wolves: primaris models. I just can't stand them.
Orks: snaggas, as I don't plan on getting them. Stompa and nauts as LoW will likely not see the game very often. Tankbustas now that they carry heavy weapons will likely be shelved for good. Mek gunz now work better as solo units and I have 6 so a few of them will probably go on vacation as well . Nob with waaaagh banner, mek, Big mek with KFF and weirdboy will probably have a break as well as they don't have any synergies with the lists I'd like to play. Big mek with SAG looks overpriced and I don't think I'll play it very often as well.
I think I've fielded everything in my Nid codex, even the crones and mucolids.
There's only one unit right now that I wouldn't field even in a friendly game - the sporocyst. And the only reason for that is the terrible fortification deployment restriction.
Besides that, the least likely units to be picked are:
Deathleaper - assassin that can't kill.
Mucolids - meh
Hive Crone - glass but no cannon.
Gargoyles - ok rules, terrible handling and transport
Toxicrene - like gargoyles, a real pain to move around the table
Tyrannocyte - the only drop pod in the game that can't come in T1 (who cares that Nids are the main drop pod faction in the setting)
If I had Sky-slashers and the Red Terror, I would give them a spin, but these are the only models I am missing.
mrFickle wrote: Interested to understand why you would never take them and if it’s because they are useless to build a good list can you answer the following question:
Does GW try to make every unit in the codex usable, even if that requires different styles of play, or are some unit just filler?
No. GW tries to shift balance here and there. Some units will be good, some units will be bad. Later they will shift things around. All to make sure people keep buying new models to replace their previously-good-but-now-bad models as players chase the net list like lemmings.
And GW is laughing while cashing in cash from lemmings.
mrFickle wrote: Interested to understand why you would never take them and if it’s because they are useless to build a good list can you answer the following question:
Does GW try to make every unit in the codex usable, even if that requires different styles of play, or are some unit just filler?
No. GW tries to shift balance here and there. Some units will be good, some units will be bad. Later they will shift things around. All to make sure people keep buying new models to replace their previously-good-but-now-bad models as players chase the net list like lemmings.
And GW is laughing while cashing in cash from lemmings.
I disagree with this. Purely because since Sisters beta, large amounts of units have been viable in each Codex.
agreed 9th edition seems to be a edition of "good internal balance" at least thus far. there are still some lemons sure but they are fewer and even the lemons are "not completely useless"
Guard
- Ogryns/Bullgryns. They just don't fit the aesthetic of my army. If there was a mech-suit option then I'd definitely give them a go.
- Taurox. Just looks awful
Custodes
- Wardens. The army is already expensive, and to me Wardens are just a waste of points which could be taken on Sagittarum.
BrianDavion wrote: agreed 9th edition seems to be a edition of "good internal balance" at least thus far. there are still some lemons sure but they are fewer and even the lemons are "not completely useless"
I also agree. But when a codex has 100+ datasheets even with a pretty solid internal balance there will likely be 30+ useless units. Units that are completely useless do exist, but thankfully in this matter we experience a significant improvement compared to older editions, when useless units had an impact: 5-10 useless units now are nothing due to the countless alternatives but in the past it could have made an army hard to play or just hard to enjoy.
Guard it's Deathstrike and Ogryns. Ogryns have really struggled for awhile and they need to be re worked to be useful and Deathstrikes have sucked since jump street.
I'll not comment on marines, but atm scouts are crap and probably will remain that way.
Dark Eldar I'd agree with Scourges, they need a real mix up as they feel like a unit without a point most of the time.
Tau, Vespids I call them the stink fingers and they never let me down, they tend to suck though I'd give honorable mention now to sniper drones which also seem to be the most useless snipers in the game.
I'm sure I'm missing some but thats some ideas and no I think GW is perfectly fine leaving some stuff worthless as heck.
40k has a lot of redundant units.
Factions have grown so much with so many different units that everyone is fitting to do the same thing. A lot of units get lost because either they do the same niche as something else, just worse. Or because they occupy a useless niche in between two other units.
BrianDavion wrote: agreed 9th edition seems to be a edition of "good internal balance" at least thus far. there are still some lemons sure but they are fewer and even the lemons are "not completely useless"
I also agree. But when a codex has 100+ datasheets even with a pretty solid internal balance there will likely be 30+ useless units. Units that are completely useless do exist, but thankfully in this matter we experience a significant improvement compared to older editions, when useless units had an impact: 5-10 useless units now are nothing due to the countless alternatives but in the past it could have made an army hard to play or just hard to enjoy.
That does depend on the faction. If yours has 32 datasheets , then having 10 that are bad is a big thing. And for some factions , like harlequins or knights even having 5 is a problem. I am not sure if Custodes can have 10 bad unit options, without using FW units a lot.
BrianDavion wrote: agreed 9th edition seems to be a edition of "good internal balance" at least thus far. there are still some lemons sure but they are fewer and even the lemons are "not completely useless"
I also agree. But when a codex has 100+ datasheets even with a pretty solid internal balance there will likely be 30+ useless units. Units that are completely useless do exist, but thankfully in this matter we experience a significant improvement compared to older editions, when useless units had an impact: 5-10 useless units now are nothing due to the countless alternatives but in the past it could have made an army hard to play or just hard to enjoy.
That does depend on the faction. If yours has 32 datasheets , then having 10 that are bad is a big thing. And for some factions , like harlequins or knights even having 5 is a problem. I am not sure if Custodes can have 10 bad unit options, without using FW units a lot.
yes but in this case he's clearly toalking proportionatly. if a army like space marines ahd the odd unit thats "not that great" it's not a crisis. but yes if custodes has a bad unit that is a problem given how few units they have
Maybe it is my english, because I don't see it. Unimportant anyway. For armies with large number of datasheets the claim is true, that a playable army can be build for them
I have not played a lot with the new codex yet, but I'm very sure that my big meks with KFF will be gathering dust till 10th edition when they will be squatted
mrFickle wrote: Interested to understand why you would never take them and if it’s because they are useless to build a good list can you answer the following question:
Does GW try to make every unit in the codex usable, even if that requires different styles of play, or are some unit just filler?
IG:-
HQ - you need your order giving units here
Lord Commissar - in practice does nothing with the changes to morale. Doesn't give orders. Fluff unit only or if you have some kind of weird non regiment build.
Troops
Conscripts - currently a massive climb down in ability over regular guardsmen, for virtually the same points. Can't even be ordered well.
Elites a crowded slot.
Commissar - in practice does nothing with the changes to morale. Fluff unit only.
Ogryns - currently overcosted and vulnerable, fluff only.
Servitors - an expensive and vulnerable way to take heavy weapons - fluff only.
Wyrdvane Psykers - in no situation are you not better off with an astropath or primaris, especially as these guys are a squad and can shot off the table in seconds.
Sly Marbo - sadly fairly naff compared to a proper assassin.
Commissar Severina Raine - See other commissars.
Heavy Support
Deathstrike - fluff only. But what awesome fluff! Deep in my heart i love them.
Heavy Weapons Squad - sadly a highly vulnerable way of losing lots of points. Allow your heavy weapons to be shot off the table.
Hydras - not actually any good at killing aircraft.
in fairness the comissar was nerfed to hell because it was insanely OP back in the day. partly thanks to the morale changes making the comissars original role being a bit..... off
Cawl - I have the model, but his rules suck at the moment
The Transport version of the plane - again the rules suck.
Kastellans - I wish they were better but, you can get many other units that do the same job cheaper.
Sulphurhounds. we have so many other units (looking at you skitarii/sicarians/HeavyStubberTanks) that can deal with light infantry, there is no need for them especially in how crowded the FA slot is.
not technically in the codex, but the secutarii peltasts/hoplites & drill. they seem to almost have been abandoned by GW at this point.
from a modelling perspective - I have 5 pteraxii, and will never get any more - I hate those flying stands - they also take up so much space in transit, I will probably still use them as I have the models and they are fully painted, but if I end up needing to cut 1 unit from my list it will be these.
if/when the knights get a better codex I might take a knight in my lists I really want to, but AdMech do the same job better, but at the moment I will leave them out for now.
The only finecast models I will ever field are the ones I already have- I will never buy another finecast model again.
In my CSM army, I prefer things with a Slaanesh/ Tzeentch look over the Khorne and Nurgle stuff, and I won't field possessed because I don't like the models (though greater possessed are awesome).
pretty much just model based for me. Don't have any weird lore hangups because I know that the lore of 40k gets retconned on an annual basis out of necessity--that's what happens when you don't advance plots.
SM Models I wouldn't field: Stormraven, any non-primaris bike, centurions, scouts, stormtalon, predator, and any unconverted indomitus pattern terminators. All models that are just ugly to me.
Really none of my other armies have any units I wouldn't ever use--necrons, admech, deathwatch, death guard (ok well I guess the defiler is horrible).
-venerable land raider: too expensive for what it does and the aesthetic does not fit the golden boys imo.
-wardens: I love the models, but there are too many units in the codex that do the same thing but better. Hopefully they get a buff in the new Codex.
-plastic venerable dreadnought: such an ugly model. If you've ever built and painted a FW custodes dreadnought, you'll never go back....they are so much better both rules and model wise.
Harlequins:
-voidweaver: I'm not a very good harlequins player, but the void weaver just doesn't seem that good for a heavy support.
Orks
-I don't plan on picking up Ghaz at any point though since I never play Goffs and was never too interested in his story before he became a bigger character in the lore.
Eldar
-Jet Bike troops. Never had an interest in them. I do like the concept of Shining Spears though.
Space Wolves
-I don't play any of the wolf-wolfy-mcwolf stuff. Can't stand the flanderization.
mrFickle wrote: Interested to understand why you would never take them and if it’s because they are useless to build a good list can you answer the following question:
Does GW try to make every unit in the codex usable, even if that requires different styles of play, or are some unit just filler?
I have been testing out Deathmarks and they're the least fun unit in the Necron codex, I have been playing 3 times with every unit in the codex, just missing Deathmarks and Szeras and I really don't want to play the third game with Deathmarks. They are bad at assassinating characters. Assassinating characters isn't that important. They aren't particularly good at killing other units.
They are pretty tough, they have deep strike and BS 2+. But I haven't had a moment where I felt "Yeah! This is why these guys are in the list" and I doubt that moment will come in the third game and I can't wait to never take them again. If they could see through walls as I suggested when I asked for them to become a proper long-ranged sniper unit then I think they would be useful and cool to use, but they are just so meh right now. They are also slightly overpriced.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though on pleasing aesthetics, Necrons are again blessed with nothing looking awful (to my eyes, your eyes may differ)
mrFickle wrote: Interested to understand why you would never take them and if it’s because they are useless to build a good list can you answer the following question:
Does GW try to make every unit in the codex usable, even if that requires different styles of play, or are some unit just filler?
I have been testing out Deathmarks and they're the least fun unit in the Necron codex, I have been playing 3 times with every unit in the codex, just missing Deathmarks and Szeras and I really don't want to play the third game with Deathmarks. They are bad at assassinating characters. Assassinating characters isn't that important. They aren't particularly good at killing other units.
Huh. They're one of the MVPs in my own Crusade force.
Of course mine are Mephrit (+3" range, +1 AP at 1/2 range) & get to use the Talent for Anhilation strat.
So my 5 man squad hits you on 2s @ 39", ignoring Look Out Sir, dealing a max of +8MW (depending upon how many 6s To Wound are rolled) + regular damage at AP.-2 (AP.-3 @ 19.5" or less - wich is quite often).
They have no problem being positioned as needed thanks to their DS ability
They're tough & reanimate.
These guys chew through things for me. I don't have problems getting rid of characters. They particularly like murdering SoB characters. And once they start wracking up Crusade xp & Honors....
mrFickle wrote: Interested to understand why you would never take them and if it’s because they are useless to build a good list can you answer the following question:
Does GW try to make every unit in the codex usable, even if that requires different styles of play, or are some unit just filler?
I have been testing out Deathmarks and they're the least fun unit in the Necron codex, I have been playing 3 times with every unit in the codex, just missing Deathmarks and Szeras and I really don't want to play the third game with Deathmarks. They are bad at assassinating characters. Assassinating characters isn't that important. They aren't particularly good at killing other units.
Huh. They're one of the MVPs in my own Crusade force.
Of course mine are Mephrit (+3" range, +1 AP at 1/2 range) & get to use the Talent for Anhilation strat.
So my 5 man squad hits you on 2s @ 39", ignoring Look Out Sir, dealing a max of +8MW (depending upon how many 6s To Wound are rolled) + regular damage at AP.-2 (AP.-3 @ 19.5" or less - wich is quite often).
They have no problem being positioned as needed thanks to their DS ability
They're tough & reanimate.
These guys chew through things for me. I don't have problems getting rid of characters. They particularly like murdering SoB characters. And once they start wracking up Crusade xp & Honors....
These guys have earned their paint in my force.
Max doesn't matter. You're talking an average of 1.4 MWs out of these guys if they didn't move (or if they did and got MWBD.) I've found most targets I want to throw them at have invulns so that AP gets wasted. I'm with the other guy. I was excited for Deathmarks but they're pretty disappointing whenever I run them. I think they should do d3 damage instead of 1 (or see through walls; though that's super cool but doesn't help up their paltry output.)
mrFickle wrote: Interested to understand why you would never take them and if it’s because they are useless to build a good list can you answer the following question:
Does GW try to make every unit in the codex usable, even if that requires different styles of play, or are some unit just filler?
I have been testing out Deathmarks and they're the least fun unit in the Necron codex, I have been playing 3 times with every unit in the codex, just missing Deathmarks and Szeras and I really don't want to play the third game with Deathmarks. They are bad at assassinating characters. Assassinating characters isn't that important. They aren't particularly good at killing other units.
Huh. They're one of the MVPs in my own Crusade force.
Of course mine are Mephrit (+3" range, +1 AP at 1/2 range) & get to use the Talent for Anhilation strat.
So my 5 man squad hits you on 2s @ 39", ignoring Look Out Sir, dealing a max of +8MW (depending upon how many 6s To Wound are rolled) + regular damage at AP.-2 (AP.-3 @ 19.5" or less - wich is quite often).
They have no problem being positioned as needed thanks to their DS ability
They're tough & reanimate.
These guys chew through things for me. I don't have problems getting rid of characters. They particularly like murdering SoB characters. And once they start wracking up Crusade xp & Honors....
These guys have earned their paint in my force.
Max doesn't matter. You're talking an average of 1.4 MWs out of these guys if they didn't move (or if they did and got MWBD.)
I've found most targets I want to throw them at have invulns so that AP gets wasted. I'm with the other guy. I was excited for Deathmarks but they're pretty disappointing whenever I run them. I think they should do d3 damage instead of 1 (or see through walls; though that's super cool but doesn't help up their paltry output.)
{shrugs} Nothing much any of us can do about Invuln saves. Either the target will make them or they won't.
But they certainly won't fail them if I don't shoot/stab them 1st....
D3 damage eh? So you want to A) pay for that, B) then complain that it's too swingy.
Seeing through walls? While that'd be pretty cool, I definitely don't want to pay for that. Especially since with their DS ability I rarely have poor LoS.
With my orks I have to say that I am very fortunate to have used every singe models I owned several times. I do need to acquire the new buggies and the new beastsnagga models to add to my collection and believe I will be able to use them all without much problem. (they are supposed to be new hot things at the moment).
With my Eldars, my army list was themed on a Aspect Warrior only list (which means no vehicles and no wraiths). I made an exception for a Farseer, Warlocks, an Autarch and a single solitary Wraithlord.
I do have a small Militarum Tempestus that I built in 7th so technically it uses all the models of that type of army, but I don't own anything regular guards have. If they release plastic Krieg soldier beyond that one squad in Kill Team, I'll expand.
Land Speeders are something I'd like to take but can never justify it. Same with assault marines, I just play mine as Vanguard vets with chainswords and bolt pistols, makes no sense not to. Regular termies also always seem to lose out to my thunder hammer assault ones, unit of 8 of those is like a rock, never had an opponent able to wipe the unit since I started playing again in 8th.
All armies: - Special Characters (on principle)
- Anything Lord of War
- Aircraft
- Anything from Forge World (don't own any, can't afford them)
Dark Eldar: - Haemonculi (because the new rules - i.e. removing their wargear options entirely - bore me to death)
- Archon (Or at least I would if I could possibly help it because their rules suck an entire barrel of dicks.)
- Beasts (their rules are still a load of arse and, due to the unique genius of GW's writing, the only HQ that can buff them is an Archon who reads them Vect's poetry.)
Necrons: - Most of the vehicles besides the Triarch Stalker and the CCB/Annihilation Barge (Not a fan of the current vehicle design, though for reasons I won't go into I do own a CCB/Annihilation Barge and I have a converted Triarch Stalker so I might as well make use of them).
- Flayed Ones (Never appealed to me)
- Most of the most recent releases, with the exception of Chronomancers (most of it just seems like a lot of stuff all competing for the same niche and a niche I already have Wraiths for, whilst Plazmancers and Psychomancers (seriously?) don't appear to any worthwhile role at all.)
Imperial Guard: - Ogryns and Bullgryns (Don't own them and they don't fit with any of my current themes.)
- Hydra (because I'm not playing 7th edition)
- Manticore et al. (I'm always a little wary that these sorts of units tend to end up creating un-fun lists and I prefer infantry-guard anyway.)
- Deathstrike (I'd actually really like to use one of these as a super-weapon but by god are its rules awful.)
I've already said earlier in this thread that I don't have any first born marines (with the exception of a squad of scouts), but reading other replies and thinking more about it I can't see myself buying any Lords of War, Aircraft or Forge World models.
If I was to start a new faction, I'd be unlikely to but any of the above either, in addition, nothing finecast.
Any sort of aircraft/flyers regardless of codex. I don't like them being in the game and I don't like how they play either. More of a suspension of disbelief thing than anything else; the rules just don't work in a way such that flyers mesh with gameplay effectively.
For my armies, these are the units I probably wouldn't take even in casual play:
Space Marines/Dark Angels:
-Assault Squads. These are just so...bad. Especially compared to other melee units.
-Deathwing Strikemaster. Basically just a Deathwing analog to the Ravenwing Talonmaster, but without any of what makes Talonmasters so good.
-Centurions (either type). Dark Angels have Deathwing, which outperform Centurions on so many levels it's not funny. Maybe other chapters can make these work, but IMO they are worthless as Dark Angels.
-Scout Bikes. I actually really liked these in 8th, but they are really bad now, especially in a chapter that has Ravenwing available.
-Reivers. The models are awesome, but they really need better rules and/or a price drop. Other melee units DA (or indeed other chapters) have will outperform them every time.
Space Wolves:
-Skyclaws. See Assault Squads above. Feel even worse when Jump Pack Wolf Guard are a thing.
-Bikes. I feel like regular old Bikes aren't thematic enough for Space Wolves. I'd rather just take ThunderCav.
-Krom Dragongaze. For a SW character, he just doesn't seem very good or even fun to take.
Sisters of Battle:
-Battle Sanctum. Hard to even use on most tables, and doesn't seem any good even if it is usable.
-Aestred Thurga and Agathae Dolan. Cool models, but not very good in-game.
Astra Militarum:
-Special Weapon Squads. If I want something like this, I'll just take Scions or Veterans/Command Squads.
-Leman Russ Eradicator/Vanquisher/Exterminator. These are just bad compared to the other Russ variants. The others do literally everything better.
-Deathstrikes. No, just no.
I have the most experience with the Chaos Space Marines and I refuse to take Chaos Cultists.
For one, GW seems to view them the same way a Chaos Lord would: A chaff unit that doesn't even get the privilege of having a proper box kit. They're either cheese or useless, with very little middle ground since they were introduced, and they muddy up the essence of what it means to be a Chaos Space Marine.
Looks at Renegades and Heretics legends list trashfire ash.... Yeah don't field anything in there anymore. Because it completely goes against what R&H were supposed to be, absolutely sucks, somehow is worse than its 8th edition incarnation which was already an absolute trashfire... Yeah, i didn't pick anything in there because i quite literally switched that army to the GSC dumpster fire because of playability and support.... I guess there i'd be hard pressed to actually use my "count as Abberrants". at 30 pts / modell they just ... suck.
As for CSM.. Since i have a "cultist army" i don't play cultists there beyond some exception. I guess the normal SM tanks i don't touch anymore... not for lack of trying but simply because they haven't been good in ages... I think cult marines are those that i'd never touch nowadays. Since they lost the capability to be made into troops they just kinda, suck in CSM lists. Unless its a khorne berzerker which are two decades old...
vipoid wrote: What makes you think I'm buying normal GW products at full price?
Fair point, but why single out Forge World items? I mean, 'Forge World' could mean anything, as they make unit types from across most of the factions and in various sizes, from small infantry to enormous super-heavy aircraft and titans. Seems weird to cut off an entire suite of different units just because they come from a GW sub-company.
vipoid wrote: What makes you think I'm buying normal GW products at full price?
Fair point, but why single out Forge World items? I mean, 'Forge World' could mean anything, as they make unit types from across most of the factions and in various sizes, from small infantry to enormous super-heavy aircraft and titans. Seems weird to cut off an entire suite of different units just because they come from a GW sub-company.
vipoid wrote: What makes you think I'm buying normal GW products at full price?
Fair point, but why single out Forge World items? I mean, 'Forge World' could mean anything, as they make unit types from across most of the factions and in various sizes, from small infantry to enormous super-heavy aircraft and titans. Seems weird to cut off an entire suite of different units just because they come from a GW sub-company.
That's fair. However, these days I tend to get most of my models from ebay and I just rarely ever see FW stuff there at all.
Also, whilst I realise FW makes a spectrum of units, for the armies I actually play they mainly seem to just do big vehicles/creatures, which I'm not a fan of.
Also also, I haven't forgiven them for squatting Corsairs.
IS easy to find GW products with discounts or discount boxes like cristhmas or start Collecting.
FW has None of that so even if by now the prices arent that different (tought 5 DAHH terminstors from.FW are 84€ VS 45€ from.gw) FW keep being higher if you most buy GW looking for discounts.
A unit that I'll never field no matter how good it happens to be at the moment is the Necron Tomb Blades. Can't think of anything more out-of-theme for Necrons than dudes riding bikes, and it doesn't help that the model just looks dumb on its own too.
Galas wrote: IS easy to find GW products with discounts or discount boxes like cristhmas or start Collecting.
FW has None of that so even if by now the prices arent that different (tought 5 DAHH terminstors from.FW are 84€ VS 45€ from.gw) FW keep being higher if you most buy GW looking for discounts.
Oddly enough I have the opposit expirance. It is very hard to get your hands on limited GW products or good start collecting or starter sets like Indomitus, but FW stuff is cheap and easy to get, often way cheaper then regular GW plastic stuff.
Arachnofiend wrote: A unit that I'll never field no matter how good it happens to be at the moment is the Necron Tomb Blades. Can't think of anything more out-of-theme for Necrons than dudes riding bikes, and it doesn't help that the model just looks dumb on its own too.
Arachnofiend wrote: A unit that I'll never field no matter how good it happens to be at the moment is the Necron Tomb Blades. Can't think of anything more out-of-theme for Necrons than dudes riding bikes, and it doesn't help that the model just looks dumb on its own too.
Arachnofiend wrote: A unit that I'll never field no matter how good it happens to be at the moment is the Necron Tomb Blades. Can't think of anything more out-of-theme for Necrons than dudes riding bikes, and it doesn't help that the model just looks dumb on its own too.
Yes, this model looks even worse and I wouldn't use it either. Not sure what your point is.
The point is that we Necrons have had "dudes riding bikes" since the day they were introduced.
That the destroyers were updated to half-torso on hover platform back in 3e doesn't make that vintage mk.1 destroyer an invalid model....
So no, Tomb Blades are not out of character for the army. YOU just don't like them.
ccs wrote: The point is that we Necrons have had "dudes riding bikes" since the day they were introduced.
If that was your point, it ain't a great point. That model looks dumb, and it was replaced with the current Destroyers. What does showing that old thing actually prove? Certainly doesn't suddenly make the droopy derpy Tomb Blades look any less stupid.
ccs wrote: That the destroyers were updated to half-torso on hover platform back in 3e doesn't make that vintage mk.1 destroyer an invalid model...
No one said that it did.
ccs wrote: So no, Tomb Blades are not out of character for the army. YOU just don't like them.
They're not out of character because an ancient model from 20 years ago also had a rider?
H.B.M.C. wrote: All Necron units with crew are out of place.
Well, not according to GW.
When I look at my Tomb Blades? I see them clearly taking cues from the Battle-droids in SW:episode 1. You know, where some of the brown robots stood on goofy looking flying things with guns. Heck, some of the robots even crewed tanks!
Likewise when I look at my Scythe planes? I see echos of the original Battlestar Galactica Cylon Raiders (crewed) + the Galactica reboot Raiders.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They're not out of character because an ancient model from 20 years ago also had a rider?
Yes, Necrons riding jetbikes came before Wraiths, they went away for a while and now they're back. The Necron character has changed throughout 40k's history from Chaos robots, to Tyranid robots, to splintered monarchies from a former empire. Necron models have changed from all metal to green rods to all plastic and saying that the only models and fluff that is in character is the middle bit with the green rods and Tyranid robots because you like it best is just personal opinion. The fact is that Necrons are all over the place from a design standpoint and your opinion is a matter of taste.
Centurions and Dreadknights - would never buy those models - same with the Stormsurge and I donlt really like the normal Suit models - I donlt mind the Riptide
ZergSmasher wrote: -Centurions (either type). Dark Angels have Deathwing, which outperform Centurions on so many levels it's not funny. Maybe other chapters can make these work, but IMO they are worthless as Dark Angels..
I'd probably consider them most for the Las Canons/Missle Launchers personally, having something that hard hitting that can use the Combat Restorative strat and be a bit less vunerable to melee than tanks.
ZergSmasher wrote: -Centurions (either type). Dark Angels have Deathwing, which outperform Centurions on so many levels it's not funny. Maybe other chapters can make these work, but IMO they are worthless as Dark Angels..
I'd probably consider them most for the Las Canons/Missle Launchers personally, having something that hard hitting that can use the Combat Restorative strat and be a bit less vunerable to melee than tanks.
Salamanders can use Self Sacrifice to let other infantry units body-block for the Cents like Grots do for Orks, that's a pretty big buff to the Cents durability. ...and I think I just spotted a valid use for Scouts.
Tau it would be the Stormsurge. Absolutely hate the thing and what it represents to the original Tau lore. Tau'nar is also included in this as well.
Curious as to how the stormsurge is an issue with the lore? (I'm a long way behind on my tau lore)
originally the Tau lore said the Tau don't build LARGE walkers, prefering to use aircraft instead. this was mostly a "they don't use TITANS" explination for epic IIRC, but everytime GW's put out new bigger suits people have use that lore to say why it doesn't fit. obviously some people accept that compared to a titan the stormsurge is still "pretty small" so it's a matter of interpretation.
Tau it would be the Stormsurge. Absolutely hate the thing and what it represents to the original Tau lore. Tau'nar is also included in this as well.
Curious as to how the stormsurge is an issue with the lore? (I'm a long way behind on my tau lore)
originally the Tau lore said the Tau don't build LARGE walkers, prefering to use aircraft instead. this was mostly a "they don't use TITANS" explination for epic IIRC, but everytime GW's put out new bigger suits people have use that lore to say why it doesn't fit. obviously some people accept that compared to a titan the stormsurge is still "pretty small" so it's a matter of interpretation.
It also ignores another facet of the Tau's lore. They innovate and change tactics all the time. At the beginning of the Damocles Gulf Crusade they didn't have the tech to build giant walkers to serve as fire base and relied instead on air support. As their tech progressed, they manage to field bigger and more powerful mechs in addition to their prior air support crafts. Tau don't use "relics" they use prototypes.
I find CSM bikes odd, they are exactly the same as SM bikes have no wargear options and are thematically stale. Surely CSM would have put spike and blades on their bikes to chop people up or something.
You'd think CSM would be riding daemons (eg. juggernauts, nurgle beasts, plague drones, fiends) instead of, y'know, a suzuki.
I find CSM bikes odd, they are exactly the same as SM bikes have no wargear options and are thematically stale. Surely CSM would have put spike and blades on their bikes to chop people up or something.
You'd think CSM would be riding daemons (eg. juggernauts, nurgle beasts, plague drones, fiends) instead of, y'know, a suzuki.
Difference of degree. CSM are still using boltguns and wearing power armour; they're not supposed to be a copy-paste SM clone, but they're also supposed to represent an evil-counterpart-army to SM, so they're going to have some of the same stuff.
Tau it would be the Stormsurge. Absolutely hate the thing and what it represents to the original Tau lore. Tau'nar is also included in this as well.
Curious as to how the stormsurge is an issue with the lore? (I'm a long way behind on my tau lore)
originally the Tau lore said the Tau don't build LARGE walkers, prefering to use aircraft instead. this was mostly a "they don't use TITANS" explination for epic IIRC, but everytime GW's put out new bigger suits people have use that lore to say why it doesn't fit. obviously some people accept that compared to a titan the stormsurge is still "pretty small" so it's a matter of interpretation.
It also ignores another facet of the Tau's lore. They innovate and change tactics all the time. At the beginning of the Damocles Gulf Crusade they didn't have the tech to build giant walkers to serve as fire base and relied instead on air support. As their tech progressed, they manage to field bigger and more powerful mechs in addition to their prior air support crafts. Tau don't use "relics" they use prototypes.
The Tau saw the Titans as completely wasteful of resources, which they are. Putting all those resources into a giant walker or mech is less efficient than spreading those resources out over a number of smaller designs. Having more of the smaller design also grants more tactical flexibility. If you can build 18 Crisis Suits for the cost of a Stormsurge, then it is by far the better investment. The Stormsurge can only ever be in one place, whereas you can assign those 18 Crisis Suits to wherever you need them.
We saw this in WW2 with the German tank designs. It doesn't matter that your King Tiger is more powerful than a T-34 when the Soviets can produce a lot more T-34s and outmanoeuvre you with those superior numbers and destroy your big, expensive tank with their smaller, cheaper tanks.
Also, the change in the lore to bring in the Riptide was really bad as it didn't reflect the tabletop abilities of the unit in question at all. In the lore they tried to describe it as being brought in to counter the heavier Imperial armour, despite its armament being inferior to the tried and tested Hammerhead against such targets. They just basically switched massed Hammerheads, in conjunction with aircraft, taking out titans to Riptides, despite the Hammerhead being better at the job.
Castigators. I refuse to field it. An unnecessary addition to the army and one that does not even look like it belongs. Just looks like a predator. Lazy arse design.
I actually quite like the look, and think the design makes sense. The Sisters use Rhino chassis vehicles already. They have the Exorcist which, again, is based on the Rhino chassis. So having their own tank based on the Rhino chassis makes sense. Why can't it exist?
Mortifiers. Another unnecessary addition and I just don't like the idea of sisters being so faithless and cowardly they even get to this point.
I think this makes sense too. It's just a Penitent Engine piloted by a Repentia.
Paragon warsuits. Just don't like the models.
The models do look a little silly, but I like the idea of them. They're the normal versions of Penitent Engines. I just wish they had a better profile. Why don't they get 5 wounds and 4 attacks base like Penitent Engines do?
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Tau don't use "relics" they use prototypes.
I actually kinda wish a lot of the Tau's current prototype systems become standard equipment in their next codex. Then we get introduced to a whole new bunch of prototype systems.
You know, to represent the previous prototypes being accepted and placed into regular doctrine.
