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GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 20:59:26


Post by: Sunno


Im a big Total War player and love WHTW 1, 2 and have pre ordered 3.

Now it seems that GW have contacted many of the big mod makers for the TW games and asked/demanded that they stop their work and/or remove their patrons. Seems that they can still uplaod thier mods for now, but GW will not allow them to make any money or accept donations for modding on anything Warhammer or GW

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/oxbdff/games_workshop_is_going_after_total_war_modding/h7npgbp/?context=3

Not sure how this will affect other big mod makers like Venris who makes the Grimhammer overhauls.

Damn.....


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 21:06:30


Post by: Mentlegen324


Seems he might have been going against the Total War: Warhammer Workshop guidelines by profiting off the mods via patreon / having files hidden behind a paywall?

Creating Mods for Total War: WARHAMMER
In addition to the above guidance, bear in mind that Total War: WARHAMMER contains IP owned by Games Workshop, and as a result you should consider the following when creating mods for this title.

When uploading TW:WARHAMMER mods to the Steam Workshop via the mod manager, you’ll need to confirm you’ve read the section on Mods in the game’s EULA. This is provided as a pop-up message when you are uploading.
Please ensure your mod meets the requirements laid out in the EULA, especially with regard to the treatment of Games Workshop and Total War IP, and ensuring that no third party IP is present.
Do not include or alter content in a way that is offensive or denigrating to the World of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
Please only include Warhammer Fantasy Battles content in your mods – other Games Workshop IP like Age of Sigmar or Warhammer 40,000 is separate and is often licensed to other companies, or used in other games.
It is not permitted to charge or ask for money for your Total War: WARHAMMER mods.


The wording of part of some of his response to that reddit post sort of come across as if he's going for the "Evil GW!" narrative, too.

I don't think there's been anything to indicate GW were the ones who contacted him, either.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 21:45:43


Post by: Billicus


The modder patreons were never going to last, it's kind of amazing to me that people even thought they could get away with making money directly from mods


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 21:57:38


Post by: jaredb


Heaven forbid folks get into trouble by breaking previously established guidelines and rules. Also, it's a pretty bold move to think you'll be allowed to make money charging folks for mods you make without permission from the games creator.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 21:58:58


Post by: Argive


Yeah im not surprised, the Modding community has been getting hammered for years.

Its very ironic because for the most part they flat out fix broken products or vastly improve games.

In TW example CA just rakes it in after most of the work was done as well as having good market data.

Imrik for example was probably the most popular lord pack mod for years and years until CA released the patch which people then bough anyway.

Its unfortunate. But I also think it could possibly be the beginning of the end for the industry which has been taking the piss for years. Its got to come to a head at some point.

Bring on the future of open source block chain based gaming I say.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 22:00:04


Post by: jojo_monkey_boy


Did the ask for money in order for people to access the mod or did they make a mod people enjoyed and offered the opportunity for people to donate money to them to support them.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 22:03:56


Post by: Argive


 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Did the ask for money in order for people to access the mod or did they make a mod people enjoyed and offered the opportunity for people to donate money to them to support them.


Thats pretty much how it works.
Basically like a tip system.

I totally support this. If someone's put in a lot of work, a multi million/billion dollar game company was unwilling to do, in order to improve the product they charged customers for... Why should users not be allowed to improve product and others tip those people if they feel their improvements has been worth while.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 22:09:04


Post by: Monkeysloth


This is pretty common for videogames. Capcom has policies that prevent modders from accepting money for access to the mod as do a lot of other large companies. Been that way for since patron really took off.

You want to make money off their IP/game get a license to do so. If you want to make a mod and give it away for free. That's cool. Some allow for general tips to modders, some don't.

Not sure how I feel about the no tips but I agree with 100% for not allowing a pateron subscription or money to exchange hands for access to the mod.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 22:09:48


Post by: Laughing Man


 Argive wrote:
I totally support this. If someone's put in a lot of work, a multi million/billion dollar game company was unwilling to do, in order to improve the product they charged customers for... Why should users not be allowed to improve product and others tip those people if they feel their improvements has been worth while.

Because they literally signed a document saying they wouldn't do that.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 22:39:02


Post by: AegisGrimm


Imagine if Games Workshop saw all the 3D-printed models being used to play their games that Catalyst sees with Battletech, while Catalyst doesn't even blink an eye.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 22:41:40


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Laughing Man wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I totally support this. If someone's put in a lot of work, a multi million/billion dollar game company was unwilling to do, in order to improve the product they charged customers for... Why should users not be allowed to improve product and others tip those people if they feel their improvements has been worth while.

Because they literally signed a document saying they wouldn't do that.


The mod is freely available on Steam, regardless of whether you are a patron or not.

They are not charging for the mod.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 22:42:49


Post by: Monkeysloth


I don't think Catalyst is a good company to reference here considering they really like refusing the pay artists for the work they do on the shadowrun line. They've even faked an embezzlement scandal to avoid paying out contracts (they guy Catalyst accused is running the current battletech kser).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I totally support this. If someone's put in a lot of work, a multi million/billion dollar game company was unwilling to do, in order to improve the product they charged customers for... Why should users not be allowed to improve product and others tip those people if they feel their improvements has been worth while.

Because they literally signed a document saying they wouldn't do that.


The mod is freely available on Steam, regardless of whether you are a patron or not.

They are not charging for the mod.


A lot of video game companies see pateron's for modders as being paid to do the work as opposed to the old method of doing the work and getting donations after the fact.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 22:51:06


Post by: jojo_monkey_boy


 Monkeysloth wrote:
A lot of video game companies see pateron's for modders as being paid to do the work as opposed to the old method of doing the work and getting donations after the fact.


I'm so glad we have giant corporations with huge legal departments to decide things for us. It makes me feel so safe.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 22:53:36


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 jaredb wrote:
Heaven forbid folks get into trouble by breaking previously established guidelines and rules. Also, it's a pretty bold move to think you'll be allowed to make money charging folks for mods you make without permission from the games creator.
The game's creator is Creative Assembly, and they're fine with mods.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
... Capcom has policies that prevent modders from accepting money for access to the mod ... If you want to make a mod and give it away for free.
They're not asking for money for access. The mods are free.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 23:05:24


Post by: Sarouan


Already talked about it in the other thread, and to quote myself :


Sarouan wrote:
Wait and see, but after reading some comments in the Total War Warhammer modding community, it seems like that this Radious is seen with suspicion with his recent post from the own modding community...especially the part on his statement where he's oddly avoiding to name who actually contacted him. He didn't clarify this as well when he intervened on the reddit topic about this (see there if you want to have fun with 800 comments : https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/oxbdff/games_workshop_is_going_after_total_war_modding/). On the Da Modding Den discord (https://discord.com/invite/SvR7sbr), he did intervene (rather angrily) against someone named Venris who also seems to have been contacted / knows more about that but "can't say any information so far" saying what he says isn't entirely true and "wait for the official statement".

A person from CA, the editor of Total War Warhammer, simply made that statement so far :


OtherTomCA

Aujourd’hui à 16:04
Hi all, I know that there are a lot of questions relating to modding for Total War: Warhammer right now.

I wanted to assure you that the stance has not changed in any fundamental way from what was outlined back in 2016 here: https://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Content_Creators.html#Creating_Mods_for_Total_War:_WARHAMMER.

We are monitoring the conversation and will look at clarifying any questions or situations at a later date.


The stance he's talking about is this one :


Creating Mods for Total War: WARHAMMER

In addition to the above guidance, bear in mind that Total War: WARHAMMER contains IP owned by Games Workshop, and as a result you should consider the following when creating mods for this title.

When uploading TW:WARHAMMER mods to the Steam Workshop via the mod manager, you’ll need to confirm you’ve read the section on Mods in the game’s EULA. This is provided as a pop-up message when you are uploading.

Please ensure your mod meets the requirements laid out in the EULA, especially with regard to the treatment of Games Workshop and Total War IP, and ensuring that no third party IP is present.

Do not include or alter content in a way that is offensive or denigrating to the World of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

Please only include Warhammer Fantasy Battles content in your mods – other Games Workshop IP like Age of Sigmar or Warhammer 40,000 is separate and is often licensed to other companies, or used in other games.

It is not permitted to charge or ask for money for your Total War: WARHAMMER mods.


So...since Radious never says the name of who contacted them, maybe it's not GW at all and it's actually CA, specifically about the mods of their video game.

Some say GW didn't contact nor removed content from any modder so far, but I can't verify their sources.

Radious seems to be known to be someone always going to monetize his mods and doesn't look to have a good reputation in the TW Warhammer modding community.


Anyway, better to be careful before trying to jump to conclusions too fast...


In resume :

- Only one modder has made that statement so far, and it's Radious.
- He never said who contacted him, even though he was asked to clarify on the same post. We actually don't know if it's GW.
- Radious is known to have a bad reputation in the modding community because of moneytisation / putting content behind paywalls on his patreon and previous lies / alleged thefts from other modders. Him using the current buzz to have people come to his patreon and boost donations wouldn't be surprising. He certainly does benefit from the confusion by his statement carefully not naming the company who contacted him...
- CA was never fine with modders asking to be paid / for money for their mods using Warhammer IP, as stated in their own guidelines for creating mods.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 23:09:07


Post by: ERJAK


 Argive wrote:
 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Did the ask for money in order for people to access the mod or did they make a mod people enjoyed and offered the opportunity for people to donate money to them to support them.


Thats pretty much how it works.
Basically like a tip system.

I totally support this. If someone's put in a lot of work, a multi million/billion dollar game company was unwilling to do, in order to improve the product they charged customers for... Why should users not be allowed to improve product and others tip those people if they feel their improvements has been worth while.


Because that's just profiting off of other people's work? I don't get to take academic papers, write a sick new introduction and get payed for "my research" either.

You want to make money off of a game? Make a game. These people are just leeching off of a developer's existing platform for a quick buck.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 23:11:06


Post by: Sarouan


ERJAK wrote:

You want to make money off of a game? Make a game. These people are just leeching off of a developer's existing platform for a quick buck.


Not "these". Radious, in this particular case.


Would be nice if people actually took time to read the pertinent facts rather than making assumptions on generalities that don't apply here.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 23:11:10


Post by: BrianDavion


 AegisGrimm wrote:
Imagine if Games Workshop saw all the 3D-printed models being used to play their games that Catalyst sees with Battletech, while Catalyst doesn't even blink an eye.


umm yes catalyst blinks an eye, a few months back they issued a round of C&D orders to people.



GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 23:15:14


Post by: auticus


Pretty easy rule I live by:

If I'm doing a project based on another entity's IP and I'm profiting in anyway, even if its a tip system, I know I'm going to get shut down.

Erego any profits I make will be short-term until I' m C&D'd.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with that is irrelevant to the topic at hand and could be another thread all by itself (that being - should someone else be able to work on projects around another company's IP and profit from it either directly or via tips).

That is the current landscape that we have lived in for forever. If you are profiting off of another company's IP in any way, you should know you run the risk of getting shut down.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 23:21:12


Post by: Arachnofiend


ERJAK wrote:
 Argive wrote:
 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
Did the ask for money in order for people to access the mod or did they make a mod people enjoyed and offered the opportunity for people to donate money to them to support them.


Thats pretty much how it works.
Basically like a tip system.

I totally support this. If someone's put in a lot of work, a multi million/billion dollar game company was unwilling to do, in order to improve the product they charged customers for... Why should users not be allowed to improve product and others tip those people if they feel their improvements has been worth while.


Because that's just profiting off of other people's work? I don't get to take academic papers, write a sick new introduction and get payed for "my research" either.

You want to make money off of a game? Make a game. These people are just leeching off of a developer's existing platform for a quick buck.

Flip the script a bit: if the only reason people are still playing your game is because of mod support, you are making money from the free labor of the community. Bethesda's entire business model is putting out a crap game and getting fans to do the unpaid labor to fix it, if other fans want to pick up the cost of that labor then its better than nothing.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 23:30:21


Post by: catbarf


 Monkeysloth wrote:
You want to make money off their IP/game get a license to do so. If you want to make a mod and give it away for free. That's cool. Some allow for general tips to modders, some don't.

Not sure how I feel about the no tips but I agree with 100% for not allowing a pateron subscription or money to exchange hands for access to the mod.


Whether it's CA's policy or not, I cannot see the justification behind declaring that a person who spends their time and effort to improve a commercial product shouldn't even be allowed to take donations for it. We're not talking about someone taking GW/CA's IP and selling it as their own independent product; it's not detracting from CA's profit nor competing with their products.

It's like saying if you write and distribute your own freeware, you shouldn't be allowed to take donations for it unless you get a license from Microsoft, because you're trying to make money off their IP/operating system.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 23:36:59


Post by: Monkeysloth


 catbarf wrote:
 Monkeysloth wrote:
You want to make money off their IP/game get a license to do so. If you want to make a mod and give it away for free. That's cool. Some allow for general tips to modders, some don't.

Not sure how I feel about the no tips but I agree with 100% for not allowing a pateron subscription or money to exchange hands for access to the mod.


Whether it's CA's policy or not, I cannot see the justification behind declaring that a person who spends their time and effort to improve a commercial product shouldn't even be allowed to take donations for it. We're not talking about someone taking GW/CA's IP and selling it as their own independent product; it's not detracting from CA's profit nor competing with their products.

It's like saying if you write and distribute your own freeware, you shouldn't be allowed to take donations for it unless you get a license from Microsoft, because you're trying to make money off their IP/operating system.


That's how the law works. If the terms of service for mods say you cannot then you cannot. Sure, you can challenge in court to see what a judge things of the terms of service but you're on the hook for all the legal costs yourself if you loose and it's a lot. Don't like it, don't click agree and play the game.

Also Microsoft expressly allows it. Apple doesn't for ios. want to distribute code better pay up as that isn't free.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/04 23:56:53


Post by: Ghaz


 AegisGrimm wrote:
Imagine if Games Workshop saw all the 3D-printed models being used to play their games that Catalyst sees with Battletech, while Catalyst doesn't even blink an eye.

Most of those 3D prints are based on MechWarrior Online and the other BattleTech video games which Catalyst has nothing to do with (Catalyst itself is a licensee of the intellectual property from Topps).


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:03:08


Post by: Laughing Man


 Ghaz wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Imagine if Games Workshop saw all the 3D-printed models being used to play their games that Catalyst sees with Battletech, while Catalyst doesn't even blink an eye.

Most of those 3D prints are based on MechWarrior Online and the other BattleTech video games which Catalyst has nothing to do with (Catalyst itself is a licensee of the intellectual property from Topps).

And both Piranha and Catalyst are happy to issue DMCAs to folks who make BattleTech models for printing.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:04:34


Post by: Tim the Biovore


Splitting hairs, but Patreon is a platform for creators getting paid to create. Doesn't matter if the mods are free to access, the use of the site suggests the modder being paid to create the content. It's highly pedantic, but that's often how these things are.

Despite being functionally the same, a platform like Ko-Fi with a more explicit "Use us to donate to creatives" slant might make the difference


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:13:21


Post by: Ghaz


 Laughing Man wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Imagine if Games Workshop saw all the 3D-printed models being used to play their games that Catalyst sees with Battletech, while Catalyst doesn't even blink an eye.

Most of those 3D prints are based on MechWarrior Online and the other BattleTech video games which Catalyst has nothing to do with (Catalyst itself is a licensee of the intellectual property from Topps).

And both Piranha and Catalyst are happy to issue DMCAs to folks who make BattleTech models for printing.

It just depends on whose design is being pirated as to who sends you the DCMA. Until Catalyst ran their Clan Invasion Kickstarter, 99% of those 3D printes would have come from Piranha Games or Harebrained Schemes designs and they would have been the ones sending out the DCMAs and not Catalyst.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:19:38


Post by: catbarf


 Monkeysloth wrote:
That's how the law works.


I didn't think 'I agree with 100%' was you stating a legal assessment free of personal opinion, but okay.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
If the terms of service for mods say you cannot then you cannot.


Whose TOS?

A TOS gives the owner the right to cancel service. If it's CA's TOS that comes with the game, that just means you can't play the game anymore.

The relevant TOS here would be Patreon's. Does Patreon disallow collecting donations for software writers who create content for existing applications/OSes? Doubtful.

Of course Steam's TOS might have some blanket clause that allows the developer to contest the existence of a mod. That's all fine and dandy, but all it means is the mod gets pulled from Steam. Host it on any other platform and keep taking donations if you want.

If it's an IP concern then TOS is completely irrelevant; that's just straight to the courts.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Also Microsoft expressly allows it. Apple doesn't for ios. want to distribute code better pay up as that isn't free.


You're thinking of Apple's app store. I can still write my own code, offer installation via sideload, and take donations if I so choose.

They can invoke their TOS to say that I can't publish to their app store as a result, but that's all they can do- the TOS gives them the right to rescind my access to their product, not any greater legal liability.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:19:52


Post by: Catulle


 auticus wrote:
Pretty easy rule I live by:

If I'm doing a project based on another entity's IP and I'm profiting in anyway, even if its a tip system, I know I'm going to get shut down.

Erego any profits I make will be short-term until I' m C&D'd.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with that is irrelevant to the topic at hand and could be another thread all by itself (that being - should someone else be able to work on projects around another company's IP and profit from it either directly or via tips).

That is the current landscape that we have lived in for forever. If you are profiting off of another company's IP in any way, you should know you run the risk of getting shut down.


This. So much this.

If you're dodging this then you're a dashed liar.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:24:11


Post by: Arbitrator


Won't somebody please think of the poor multi-million/billion pound profit company?!


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:33:47


Post by: BrianDavion


 Arbitrator wrote:
Won't somebody please think of the poor multi-million/billion pound profit company?!

^
"IT'S OK TO STEAL! HE'S RICHER THEN ME"


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:35:27


Post by: Catulle


 catbarf wrote:
 Monkeysloth wrote:
That's how the law works.


I didn't think 'I agree with 100%' was you stating a legal assessment free of personal opinion, but okay.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
If the terms of service for mods say you cannot then you cannot.


Whose TOS?

A TOS gives the owner the right to cancel service. If it's CA's TOS that comes with the game, that just means you can't play the game anymore.

The relevant TOS here would be Patreon's. Does Patreon disallow collecting donations for software writers who create content for existing applications/OSes? Doubtful.

Of course Steam's TOS might have some blanket clause that allows the developer to contest the existence of a mod. That's all fine and dandy, but all it means is the mod gets pulled from Steam. Host it on any other platform and keep taking donations if you want.

If it's an IP concern then TOS is completely irrelevant; that's just straight to the courts.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Also Microsoft expressly allows it. Apple doesn't for ios. want to distribute code better pay up as that isn't free.


You're thinking of Apple's app store. I can still write my own code, offer installation via sideload, and take donations if I so choose.

They can invoke their TOS to say that I can't publish to their app store as a result, but that's all they can do- the TOS gives them the right to rescind my access to their product, not any greater legal liability.


" You may not post creations that infringe others’ intellectual property or proprietary rights. Patrons may not use creations posted by creators in any way not authorized by the creator."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literal breach of the Ts and Cs, innit?


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:37:45


Post by: BrianDavion


Catulle wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
 Monkeysloth wrote:
That's how the law works.


I didn't think 'I agree with 100%' was you stating a legal assessment free of personal opinion, but okay.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
If the terms of service for mods say you cannot then you cannot.


Whose TOS?

A TOS gives the owner the right to cancel service. If it's CA's TOS that comes with the game, that just means you can't play the game anymore.

The relevant TOS here would be Patreon's. Does Patreon disallow collecting donations for software writers who create content for existing applications/OSes? Doubtful.

Of course Steam's TOS might have some blanket clause that allows the developer to contest the existence of a mod. That's all fine and dandy, but all it means is the mod gets pulled from Steam. Host it on any other platform and keep taking donations if you want.

If it's an IP concern then TOS is completely irrelevant; that's just straight to the courts.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Also Microsoft expressly allows it. Apple doesn't for ios. want to distribute code better pay up as that isn't free.


You're thinking of Apple's app store. I can still write my own code, offer installation via sideload, and take donations if I so choose.

They can invoke their TOS to say that I can't publish to their app store as a result, but that's all they can do- the TOS gives them the right to rescind my access to their product, not any greater legal liability.


" You may not post creations that infringe others’ intellectual property or proprietary rights. Patrons may not use creations posted by creators in any way not authorized by the creator."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literal breach of the Ts and Cs, innit?


seems pretty clear to me yeah


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:39:03


Post by: Arbitrator


BrianDavion wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
Won't somebody please think of the poor multi-million/billion pound profit company?!

^
"IT'S OK TO STEAL! HE'S RICHER THEN ME"

Yeah, I don't really care if some modder or fan artist is being given some money by people who like their stuff, when a multi-million/billion company is stopping just short of minimum wage for most of it's employees. Equally, I could care less if a multi-millionaire has his house burgled, but I would if Mrs Norris living off her £100 a week pension was. Something tells me the former would get over having a few thousand nicked.

That money probably wasn't going to Games Workshop anyway, especially not the Total War modding.




GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:45:19


Post by: Arachnofiend


BrianDavion wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
Won't somebody please think of the poor multi-million/billion pound profit company?!

^
"IT'S OK TO STEAL! HE'S RICHER THEN ME"

If they're rich enough they're a dragon and you're a hero for it.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:45:40


Post by: Catulle


Like, feel free to play our your general bs, but I for one will be glad when we finally start to ban the damn pirates from the site, seeing as we seemingly can't ban the nazis, the covid deniers, the racists and the sexists, at least s I me body may do something about the direct harm to 5 he hobby!


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:55:21


Post by: catbarf


Catulle wrote:
" You may not post creations that infringe others’ intellectual property or proprietary rights. Patrons may not use creations posted by creators in any way not authorized by the creator."

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literal breach of the Ts and Cs, innit?


If it's actually infringing their IP, sure.

I can pretty easily write mods for existing games without reproducing their copyrighted code, artistic assets, or trademarks. It's not that hard, particularly when you get into the nitty-gritty engine modifications rather than artistic expansions.

Same way you can make an accessory for a physical product without infringing on the copyright or trademarks of the device. Or, more pertinently, make a piece of software intended to function within an existing operating system, without violating the existing copyrights on the code of that OS.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
Won't somebody please think of the poor multi-million/billion pound profit company?!

^
"IT'S OK TO STEAL! HE'S RICHER THEN ME"


Okay, I'll bite: What's CA losing? What's being stolen?


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:57:24


Post by: Argive


 Arbitrator wrote:
Won't somebody please think of the poor multi-million/billion pound profit company?!


How dare people improve their products for free off their own backs and time and how dare other people willingly "tip them" for their work..

This is why we cant have nice things.
Quite a few people in this thread either don't seem to understand modding or just have very limited scope of the entire industry.

Nobody is disputing some BS self made T&C or law... But you have to question validity of the law or motivations behind such things... Otherwise we get to absurd stations where the only valid response is "I am just following orders"

If somebody is actively improving my product its insane to scream "I AM THE LAW!!!! YOU SHALL STOP!!!!
Its stupid...

That's not to say the world is perfect and everybody is a good actor.

The only scenario in which I envision a mod being problematic is if it actively harms, the game or its intended function/image.

For example if I had an adventure game aimed at children playing as some sort of fluffy teddy bear going around jumping on platforms and smashing piñatas, I'd be unhappy if somebody made a mod where the teddy bear is a demon and the piñatas are now human corpses... This would potentially damage the brand/ image of the game to customers.

That is not the same as someone coding in fixing all/some of the bugs companies haven't bothered fixing before releasing the game, like pretty much all of the AAA developers.

The overall result is ever lowering standards and quality.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 00:59:21


Post by: frankelee


Oh look, another thing for Youtube grifters to generate clickbait hate with, that will in no way affect my purchases, along with 99% of the rest of the community.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 01:00:18


Post by: Argive


Spoiler:
BrianDavion wrote:
Catulle wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
 Monkeysloth wrote:
That's how the law works.


I didn't think 'I agree with 100%' was you stating a legal assessment free of personal opinion, but okay.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
If the terms of service for mods say you cannot then you cannot.


Whose TOS?

A TOS gives the owner the right to cancel service. If it's CA's TOS that comes with the game, that just means you can't play the game anymore.

The relevant TOS here would be Patreon's. Does Patreon disallow collecting donations for software writers who create content for existing applications/OSes? Doubtful.

Of course Steam's TOS might have some blanket clause that allows the developer to contest the existence of a mod. That's all fine and dandy, but all it means is the mod gets pulled from Steam. Host it on any other platform and keep taking donations if you want.

If it's an IP concern then TOS is completely irrelevant; that's just straight to the courts.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Also Microsoft expressly allows it. Apple doesn't for ios. want to distribute code better pay up as that isn't free.


You're thinking of Apple's app store. I can still write my own code, offer installation via sideload, and take donations if I so choose.

They can invoke their TOS to say that I can't publish to their app store as a result, but that's all they can do- the TOS gives them the right to rescind my access to their product, not any greater legal liability.


" You may not post creations that infringe others’ intellectual property or proprietary rights. Patrons may not use creations posted by creators in any way not authorized by the creator."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literal breach of the Ts and Cs, innit?


seems pretty clear to me yeah


So the only issue is with the semantics of the chosen platform.
But the concept of getting tips for improving a product is all well and good ?


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 01:01:11


Post by: Arbitrator


Catulle wrote:
Like, feel free to play our your general bs, but I for one will be glad when we finally start to ban the damn pirates from the site, seeing as we seemingly can't ban the nazis, the covid deniers, the racists and the sexists, at least s I me body may do something about the direct harm to 5 he hobby!

I'm sure a few people getting Patreon donations for their otherwise free mods/videos/art is going to be the death knell that wipes out Games Workshop overnight.



GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 01:07:14


Post by: Galas


IP infrigement is not stealing.

Thats why they are literally two different criminal offenses and work under different sets of laws.

It isn't in any shape or form, in the same moral standing. Stop using loaded terms.

Is totally possible to be against the present set of IP and Copyright and Trademarks laws we have today and still be against the idea of people stealing stuff. Creative ideas =/= Physical property


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 01:10:12


Post by: Argive


 Arbitrator wrote:
Catulle wrote:
Like, feel free to play our your general bs, but I for one will be glad when we finally start to ban the damn pirates from the site, seeing as we seemingly can't ban the nazis, the covid deniers, the racists and the sexists, at least s I me body may do something about the direct harm to 5 he hobby!

I'm sure a few people getting Patreon donations for their otherwise free mods/videos/art is going to be the death knell that wipes out Games Workshop overnight.



Yeah lets ban everyone. That way you can post amazing responses to your own comments till the end of time wallowing in your purity.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 01:16:30


Post by: Catulle


 catbarf wrote:
Catulle wrote:
" You may not post creations that infringe others’ intellectual property or proprietary rights. Patrons may not use creations posted by creators in any way not authorized by the creator."

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literal breach of the Ts and Cs, innit?


If it's actually infringing their IP, sure.

I can pretty easily write mods for existing games without reproducing their copyrighted code, artistic assets, or trademarks. It's not that hard, particularly when you get into the nitty-gritty engine modifications rather than artistic expansions.

Same way you can make an accessory for a physical product without infringing on the copyright or trademarks of the device. Or, more pertinently, make a piece of software intended to function within an existing operating system, without violating the existing copyrights on the code of that OS.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
Won't somebody please think of the poor multi-million/billion pound profit company?!

^
"IT'S OK TO STEAL! HE'S RICHER THEN ME"


Okay, I'll bite: What's CA losing? What's being stolen?


Sure. Which rights are reserved every single time any of the images TTS has monetised have been published?

If they were doing their own art, that's one thing. Outright copypasta for the Patron bucks, well, that's going to be a test of the system. But at that point, they're saying that the work-for-hire guys that did that art... well, they shouldn't be making a living off it since they can do 18k a month stealing that art (let alone the license holder, they're not paying the actual artist *gak* they're just profiteering).


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 01:18:09


Post by: Argive


 Galas wrote:
IP infrigement is not stealing.

Thats why they are literally two different criminal offenses and work under different sets of laws.

It isn't in any shape or form, in the same moral standing. Stop using loaded terms.

Is totally possible to be against the present set of IP and Copyright and Trademarks laws we have today and still be against the idea of people stealing stuff. Creative ideas =/= Physical property


I think there's a difference in protecting an inventor from someone just taking his invention, mass producing it and selling it at an extortionate amount of money and not giving the poor man a dime. And some nerd in a basement spending untold hours to make and perfect a sexy slneshy barbarian skin for his Norscan marauders... (which are trash tier troops).

Some people just cant seem to see nuance..

You have generation defining games which are generation defining due to the community: Skyrim, fallout, GTA etc.
All of those games get untold hours of free promotional content through the communities weather by modding or streaming.

I mean who hasn't watched the random skyrim mods that are absolutely bonkers and hilarious?
None of these titles would be as successful or have as much of loyal fanbase if it wasn't for the communities behind these.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 01:49:37


Post by: catbarf


Catulle wrote:
Sure. Which rights are reserved every single time any of the images TTS has monetised have been published?

If they were doing their own art, that's one thing. Outright copypasta for the Patron bucks, well, that's going to be a test of the system. But at that point, they're saying that the work-for-hire guys that did that art... well, they shouldn't be making a living off it since they can do 18k a month stealing that art (let alone the license holder, they're not paying the actual artist *gak* they're just profiteering).


Well, uh, good thing this thread has nothing to do with TTS then, right?

I mean, if you're fishing for a more general view: I don't see any problem with commercial works (or non-commercial with associated donations) leveraging existing IP if it's not infringing upon the ability of the original rightsholder to profit off their work or unambiguously establish ownership of their media. TTS and mods don't divert profit from GW nor do they create any confusion in viewers as to what official GW canon is; therefore they're effectively harmless, same as fan fiction and fan films which even protective rightsholders (Disney) tolerate. The rightsholder certainly can exert IP law against these fan works but I don't think it's the morally justifiable thing to do.

In the case of modders, they're not just fan content- they actively improve the product. While we can speculate back-and-forth over whether projects like TTS bring anyone new into the hobby, there are games that succeed in large part to modders, as evidenced by both Bethesda's games and Bethesda's abortive attempt to directly monetize modding. These are the 21st-century equivalent of the guys who would publish guides on fixing your own TV or improving your CB radio; upgrades created by the community that add to the value of the content at zero detriment to the rightsholder. It is a distinctly anti-consumer view to oppose this content on the grounds of raw legality, particularly when the only monetization in question is a wholly optional after-the-fact donation.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 03:04:18


Post by: Monkeysloth


 catbarf wrote:


 Monkeysloth wrote:
Also Microsoft expressly allows it. Apple doesn't for ios. want to distribute code better pay up as that isn't free.


You're thinking of Apple's app store. I can still write my own code, offer installation via sideload, and take donations if I so choose.

They can invoke their TOS to say that I can't publish to their app store as a result, but that's all they can do- the TOS gives them the right to rescind my access to their product, not any greater legal liability.


Apple does not allow side loading, android does. The only way you can is by jail breaking your phone which Apple is very against and is only legal, in the US, because the Library of Congress has the final say over DRM protections and decided jail breaking is legal (and it could change its mind and declare jail breaking illegal in the US if it wanted). If you want to distribute ios code the way apple wants you too you must pay for access to the app store. This whole debate over access to IOS is a large part of the Epic lawsuit against apple as they want to have another way to install things onto iOS (preferably through an Epic store).


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 03:13:01


Post by: Argive


 Monkeysloth wrote:
 catbarf wrote:


 Monkeysloth wrote:
Also Microsoft expressly allows it. Apple doesn't for ios. want to distribute code better pay up as that isn't free.


You're thinking of Apple's app store. I can still write my own code, offer installation via sideload, and take donations if I so choose.

They can invoke their TOS to say that I can't publish to their app store as a result, but that's all they can do- the TOS gives them the right to rescind my access to their product, not any greater legal liability.


Apple does not allow side loading, android does. The only way you can is by jail breaking your phone which Apple is very against and is only legal, in the US, because the Library of Congress has the final say over DRM protections and decided jail breaking is legal (any it could change its mind and declare jail breaking illegal in the US if it wanted). If you want to distribute ios code the way apple wants you too you must pay for access to the app store.


But modders arent giving away games for free...
Consumers still have to buy the base game and any relevant DLC from the proprietary organisation...

In fact in vast majority of cases the mod improves the "vanilla" content in a meaningful enough way where people are willing to give them money from the good ness fo their hearts.

I think a much better case study here would be Minecraft.
There's some weird shady things going on with unofficial Minecraft.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 03:16:01


Post by: catbarf


 Monkeysloth wrote:
Apple does not allow side loading, android does. The only way you can is by jail breaking your phone which Apple is very against and is only legal, in the US, because the Library of Congress has the final say over DRM protections and decided jail breaking is legal (and it could change its mind and declare jail breaking illegal in the US if it wanted). If you want to distribute ios code the way apple wants you too you must pay for access to the app store. This whole debate over access to IOS is a large part of the Epic lawsuit against apple as they want to have another way to install things onto iOS (preferably through an Epic store).


You mean to say that loading unsigned apps on Apple's OSes is only legal because a federal court denied Apple's overreaching claims, and maintained that all Apple can legally control is access to their own storefront?

...Sure? What's your point?

Apple can put whatever roadblocks in your way that they want, but they can't legally stop you from making software that works on their platform. Good luck to any company that wants to sue modders as somehow infringing on their rights.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 03:20:35


Post by: Flipsiders


Let's stop talking about legal precedent for a second, because I assume very few of us are lawyers.

Normally, arguments about fan creators like these are pretty easy black and white political issues; you either believe that fanfiction (or fan videos, or modding, etc. etc.) should be protected, or it shouldn't. Those two positions tie into two very clear positions on capitalism, and are therefore unlikely to be changed. For what it's worth, I'm usually on the "pro-fan" side. Removing or threatening to remove someone's work because they like what you made and wanted to create more of it is not a very nice thing to do, to say the least.

The issue with this example is that the donations take it into a big grey area. It seems a lot like a ton of ex-fan creators have turned their hobbies into full-time jobs, and it feels a bit scummy to essentially be making money off another person's work. It's hardly piracy, and it from my point of view it shouldn't be illegal, but it shouldn't be illegal in the same way that it shouldn't be illegal for someone to talk about how they think clubbing seals is awesome and should be encouraged. Yes, people say that they're receiving donations instead of treating their work as a job, and that's sort of true, but donations are a funny thing, aren't they? It's hard to say when something counts as a simple "donation," and when it turns into payment. There's a reason, for instance, why it's illegal to "donate" to a judge after he gives one of your friends a light sentence.

Obviously no one is getting bribed in this situation, but it feels like a similar situation. When do people stop accepting money for something they created out of the goodness of their heart, and start expecting money in exchange for more creations? It rubs the me the wrong way, and honestly, I don't think I can morally fault GW for the stance they took here. The point of a fan creation should be that you're pursuing it as a hobby, or maybe a commission. A job simply seems too much.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 03:32:57


Post by: catbarf


 Flipsiders wrote:
and it feels a bit scummy to essentially be making money off another person's work.


I take issue with this because it's a fundamental misrepresentation of the level of input involved.

Someone who takes existing artwork, characters, and ideas, writes their own fiction based on it, and sells it for a profit- consciously leveraging the existing popularity of that work- is making money off another person's work. That's what IP law is meant to prevent.

Someone who takes an existing commercial product and publishes information (or code) on how to improve it, with an ancillary but non-necessary donation service, isn't mooching off anyone else's work. They're providing their own contribution that raises the value of the base product through wholly original contribution. Even if you consider the donation service a for-profit monetary incentive rather than an optional donation, it's still on the basis of original work, rather than repackaging someone else's content.

Modders aren't the digital equivalent of IP thieves re-selling unauthorized use of copyrighted characters. They're more the modern equivalent of the old 'savvy consumers' who would publish technical data on fixing and incrementally improving upon commercial products. That's still a market that's healthy in its own right- there's plenty of aftermarket support for Apple and Microsoft products. But in the arena of digital products, influential corporations have lobbied for greater protection of their products. This is not a pro-consumer trend.

From a moral standpoint the point of IP law is to prevent damage. I've yet to see a justification for invoking IP law against modders that demonstrates actionable damage, rather than the fact that the rightsholders simply have the right.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 03:52:41


Post by: Flipsiders


 catbarf wrote:
From a moral standpoint the point of IP law is to prevent damage.


This statement is correct, but isn't complete. Mitigating damages is an important moral consideration of IP law, but encouraging original work is almost as important. When a person profits just by simply improve upon the creations of strangers, they are disincentivized to create works or products which compete with or surpass those creations. Obviously, this paradigm is equally the fault of companies such as Apple, Microsoft, or (in this case) Games Workshop, which create products with obvious flaws and refuse to reiterate upon them, but the fact that these entities are at fault is no indication that these modders are therefore saintly figures.

Creating a system in which corporations are permitted to create subpar products and independent developers are incentivized to create unoriginal works ultimately damages the consumer twice over. Three times over, in fact, as if a consumer feels obligated to donate to one of these independent developers, they are both propagating this system and also essentially paying money to make sure their product works.

Again, I don't think that GW should have the legal right to remove these mods (whether they do or do not is irrelevant), and donation-based profit is in such a grey area that legislating against it is likely a fool's errand, but I still don't think these practices should be supported in the slightest. Save improvement via modding for dead games from the 2000s, and as a consumer, simply refuse to purchase products which require third-party upgrades to adequately function whenever possible.



GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 04:01:22


Post by: alextroy


 catbarf wrote:
Someone who takes an existing commercial product and publishes information (or code) on how to improve it, with an ancillary but non-necessary donation service, isn't mooching off anyone else's work. They're providing their own contribution that raises the value of the base product through wholly original contribution. Even if you consider the donation service a for-profit monetary incentive rather than an optional donation, it's still on the basis of original work, rather than repackaging someone else's content.
Correct, assuming the published information isn't owned by someone else. In this case, the published information is GW's legally protected IP. Just like you can't write code using someone's patented methods with paying them, you can't sell someone else's IP without paying them. Getting donations for your already created code or donations to allow you to make unspecified future code is still payment.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 04:07:39


Post by: yukishiro1


IP infringement isn't stealing, if it was we wouldn't need IP laws, you could just use the laws against stealing to protect your IP. We have IP laws precisely because it isn't stealing. Seeing people make the stealing argument is always good for a laugh, because they don't realize it actually undermines their own argument - if you have to steal (ha, ha) moral outrage from a different thing, it's probably a great clue that they thing you're trying to argue is so morally problematic...isn't that problematic. Because if it was, you wouldn't have to borrow more emotionally charged language from somewhere else.



GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 04:21:49


Post by: catbarf


Flipsiders wrote:Mitigating damages is an important moral consideration of IP law, but encouraging original work is almost as important.


Says who?

Seriously. IP protections are invoked by the rightsholder to defend ownership of their content against unlicensed use. Those rights are the maintenance of the rightsholder; not society as a whole over some nebulous principle of encouraging original work.

From a purely non-legal standpoint I see no intrinsic value in a mediocre but original work over a better but derivative improvement to an existing one.

alextroy wrote:Correct, assuming the published information isn't owned by someone else. In this case, the published information is GW's legally protected IP. Just like you can't write code using someone's patented methods with paying them, you can't sell someone else's IP without paying them. Getting donations for your already created code or donations to allow you to make unspecified future code is still payment.


Sure. So, is there evidence that the mods in question:
-Reuse existing code
-Recreate existing visual assets
-Use any other form of copyrighted material?

'Published information' is a meaningless term. It's not enough to merely assert that it's code intended to work with a Games Workshop licensed property and therefore anything tangentially related uses their IP- you can sell shoulder pads that fit on GW models, and you can ask for donations over code that its with GW software.

If Apple said you can't make a case for their phone, because making a wholly external case violates their legally protected IP on the design of their phone, would you accept it?


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 04:25:16


Post by: Monkeysloth


 catbarf wrote:
 Monkeysloth wrote:
Apple does not allow side loading, android does. The only way you can is by jail breaking your phone which Apple is very against and is only legal, in the US, because the Library of Congress has the final say over DRM protections and decided jail breaking is legal (and it could change its mind and declare jail breaking illegal in the US if it wanted). If you want to distribute ios code the way apple wants you too you must pay for access to the app store. This whole debate over access to IOS is a large part of the Epic lawsuit against apple as they want to have another way to install things onto iOS (preferably through an Epic store).


You mean to say that loading unsigned apps on Apple's OSes is only legal because a federal court denied Apple's overreaching claims, and maintained that all Apple can legally control is access to their own storefront?

...Sure? What's your point?

Apple can put whatever roadblocks in your way that they want, but they can't legally stop you from making software that works on their platform. Good luck to any company that wants to sue modders as somehow infringing on their rights.


No, the courts so far have agreed with Apple. The Library of congress said you can bypass the iOS drm as they have the final say over that. You cannot, however, bypass it on a game console. Nintendo wins like a court case every year over it. So if the LoC decided against jailbreaking iOS (as they have the grant extensions every few years) it would be illegal as seen by Nintendo's victories to bypass the apple app store and install your own code. Sony and Microsoft have also won against people that allow unauthorized code to run on the Playstation and Xbox respectively.

So my point is companies can legally prevent you from running unauthorized code on their platforms.

And other video game companies have sued modders and won on the PC. Blizzard, take 2 and a bunch of others. They're mostly around online cheating software but those are mods and they win. Nintendo has stopped people from putting their IP into other games via mods.

I'm not against mods either. I just realize the reality of EULAs and expensive lawyers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:


If Apple said you can't make a case for their phone, because making a wholly external case violates their legally protected IP on the design of their phone, would you accept it?


They did take samsung to court for copying the iphone physical design and won (so yes, apple owns a rectangle with rounded corners for a phone design). And won on appeal too.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44248404
in the latest court ruling, most of the damages payment - $533.3m - was awarded for infringing three Apple design patents. The remainder was for violating two patented functions.


You also have to "technically" pay apple for the right to make accessories, including cases, for their phones. They just tend to, from what I understand, prevent bootleg stuff getting through customs as China really doesn't care if people are making phone cases without apple's permission. US Customs does though.

Hell, they recently got US customs to block a competitors earbuds claiming they were too close to the aripod design. https://www.engadget.com/us-customs-one-plus-buds-counterfeit-apple-air-pods-081804090.html


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 04:46:23


Post by: Grey Templar


 Galas wrote:
IP infrigement is not stealing.

Thats why they are literally two different criminal offenses and work under different sets of laws.

It isn't in any shape or form, in the same moral standing. Stop using loaded terms.

Is totally possible to be against the present set of IP and Copyright and Trademarks laws we have today and still be against the idea of people stealing stuff. Creative ideas =/= Physical property


IP Infringement is absolutely Theft. A specific type of theft, where the stolen object is an intangible idea or design which you have stolen by reproducing it. It is a different law because different laws cover different types of theft. Stealing a car is covered by a different law than stealing someones Identity for example.

You can't disagree on IP Infringement being Theft or not, that is undeniable. What you can disagree on is what exactly constitutes IP Infringement, that is where there would be a lot of grey area because as IP is intangible it is difficult to nail down exact definitions.

As to weather a Mod to a Game could be considered IP Infringement if you accept donations, I think that depends on the exact nature of the mod itself. Game mechanics, and something like the actual data in the Mod itself could not be copyright struck by GW since their IP pertains to the artistic renders of the game and not the code of the game, or even game mechanics within the game(Those would be owned by CA, if anybody, but many game mechanics couldn't be claimed even by them).

Say you had a hypothetical mod which expanded the map and added Cathay and Ind to the game. Cathay, Ind, and the larger Warhammer map are obviously GW property and you couldn't make money off of that.

But say we had another hypothetical mod. One which rebalances all the existing factions, changes unit costs, damage values, health, etc... Overhauled the economy perhaps, made the economy more complex using more than just Gold to create and maintain units. This would not be something GW could claim IP Infringement on, the changes are to the games coding and game mechanics, not to any of GWs IP. CA could probably make claims against the modder using their base game code, but that would depend on the nitty gritty details of how the mod is structured. If it just plugs into the existing game, then they wouldn't have much.

Just like Ford can't sue someone for selling aftermarket parts for their vehicles, depending on the type of mod to a computer game you may not have a leg to stand on.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 04:51:46


Post by: yukishiro1


Totally and completely wrong. It absolutely is not theft, theft requires the deprivation of someone else's (tangible/personal/movable) property, not just your benefiting from it. If you could walk down the street, look at someone's car, snap your fingers, and create a perfect duplicate of it, it wouldn't be theft to drive away in the new car you poofed into existence, because doing so doesn't deprive the car's owner of the use of their own car. IP infringement is not theft because there's no deprivation of the owner's property, merely exploitation (in the economic sense) of it.

At a stretch, you might be able to argue it was a kind of conversion. But conversion doesn't have any moral heft to it, hence why people break out the stealing and theft language.



GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 05:13:50


Post by: Just Tony


So essentially this and every other person recently who got popped or chose to self-pop revolved around making money off of said work, not the work itself? I'm understanding this correctly, yes? So make a couple cat videos, link a patreon to it with maybe a passing mention of your "free" modding and avoid being paid directly for said content, before or after the fact. Occam's Razor and all that...


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 05:35:39


Post by: yukishiro1


No, GW told at least one animator that they had to take down their videos whether they were monetized or not.

Plus, GW would probably claim it owned the IP rights to the concept of a cat.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 06:00:31


Post by: drbored


Honestly this thread should just be locked by a Mod.

Video game modders breaking TOS is
A. nothing new
B. worthless to argue about in a forum that's focused on wargaming.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 06:29:00


Post by: Flipsiders


 catbarf wrote:
Flipsiders wrote:Mitigating damages is an important moral consideration of IP law, but encouraging original work is almost as important.


Says who?

Seriously. IP protections are invoked by the rightsholder to defend ownership of their content against unlicensed use. Those rights are the maintenance of the rightsholder; not society as a whole over some nebulous principle of encouraging original work.

From a purely non-legal standpoint I see no intrinsic value in a mediocre but original work over a better but derivative improvement to an existing one.


From a non-legal standpoint, do you see an issue with a company releasing a broken or incomplete product under the assumption that people can just add in the extra components themselves afterward?


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 07:12:57


Post by: Just Tony


yukishiro1 wrote:
No, GW told at least one animator that they had to take down their videos whether they were monetized or not.

Plus, GW would probably claim it owned the IP rights to the concept of a cat.


Why are you here? I mean, you obviously detest GW on a cellular level, so why participate in ANYTHING to do with their hobbies?


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 07:43:28


Post by: Midnightdeathblade


Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 07:50:07


Post by: BrianDavion


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.


and I can almost imagine when after a year none of this has come true the "anti-GW crusaders" will humbly admit that perhaps they over reacted.... ohh wait no they won't


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 07:51:56


Post by: Sarouan


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.


Right, right. We'll wait and see if that happens and if that happens, you'll get a cookie. Happy ?

Now, back to facts...there is no evidence of GW doing that for now and so far, the people who have been "ruined" (like Sodaz) was actually more because of the youtube toxic community who considered that him removing his videos because he was engaged in negociations to work with GW as a betrayal / sell out or something and their harassment was so bad Sodaz decided to decline the job offer AND made him quit entirely from doing videos on Warhammer ever.

So we can say it's actually the "good defenders" here who are making more harm than good to those they think they are "defending".


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 07:54:52


Post by: Midnightdeathblade


BrianDavion wrote:
 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.


and I can almost imagine when after a year none of this has come true the "anti-GW crusaders" will humbly admit that perhaps they over reacted.... ohh wait no they won't



I guess we will see. However, the crap that's happened in the last few months ever since Warhammer + was announced doesn't bode well.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 08:09:46


Post by: tneva82


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.


and I can almost imagine when after a year none of this has come true the "anti-GW crusaders" will humbly admit that perhaps they over reacted.... ohh wait no they won't



I guess we will see. However, the crap that's happened in the last few months ever since Warhammer + was announced doesn't bode well.


Well basically only thing that has really happened is this one.

Or hopefully you don't refer to TTS where guy himself decided to stop it with zero contact from GW and with nothing actually having changed


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 08:37:44


Post by: A Town Called Malus


Catulle wrote:


" You may not post creations that infringe others’ intellectual property or proprietary rights. Patrons may not use creations posted by creators in any way not authorized by the creator."



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Literal breach of the Ts and Cs, innit?


Were the mods actually posted to Patreon, and only exclusively available on Patreon?

Also, it is possible for a mod to contain nothing that infringes on GWs IP. If I made a mod that changed a load of unit stats, then that mod only contains a table of variables and their assigned values. If I made a new skin for a unit, then the mod would contain my created textures, which are my own work and not infringing on GWs IP.

Furthermore, mods in no way can ever act as a substitute for the original work of the game they are mods for, as they literally do nothing without the original work. The only instance where it could be the case is with total conversion mods, such as someone making a mod which changes Warhammer into The Lord of the Rings, and it would only be so if there was a game currently being sold which the mod could act as a substitute for.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 09:13:42


Post by: Sarouan


 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Were the mods actually posted to Patreon, and only exclusively available on Patreon?



Doesn't even have to be that. Any creation. For example, Radious gives custom pictures from units in his mods as rewards for some levels on his patreon. That's a creation using other IP, and he does offer it clearly for money.

No need to go any further.

And if you check his patreon right now and say "but there are no Warhammer named related reward on his patreon !" - that's because he already took care of it since his statement.

Even though right now, some rewards do say they give picture of any of their covered mods and since at least one of his mods is still up and active about Total War Warhammer and his custom units there are based on Warhammer IP...



Furthermore, mods in no way can ever act as a substitute for the original work of the game they are mods for, as they literally do nothing without the original work. The only instance where it could be the case is with total conversion mods, such as someone making a mod which changes Warhammer into The Lord of the Rings, and it would only be so if there was a game currently being sold which the mod could act as a substitute for.


Irrelevant. IP is IP, Rules are rules. You don't follow them or try to be smarter than them but you're not => you still can get the hammer in your face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Also, it is possible for a mod to contain nothing that infringes on GWs IP. If I made a mod that changed a load of unit stats, then that mod only contains a table of variables and their assigned values. If I made a new skin for a unit, then the mod would contain my created textures, which are my own work and not infringing on GWs IP.


That's not the case of Radious, and he's the only one concerned so far. So argueing about a hypothetical situation is nice and all, but still not applying to reality in this case.

Finally, and it's good to say it again : we don't know if that was GW who asked Radious to do that at all. As far as his statement is, could be very well his red fish or cat that whispered it in his ear at night, and the statement still won't need to be changed at all. Since he never named the person or group or whatever that contacted him.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 09:57:01


Post by: deano2099


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.


While I'd not argue that that's impossible, there is a fundamental difference between filming yourself using the product as intended (painting, playing) versus creating original media derived from the product. Again - not saying you're totally wrong or it won't happen, just that they're really not the same thing.

In terms of video game mods, we are seeing Patreon turn the whole thing upside down which is quite a lot of fun. Make a good enough mod that people want to see developed and those people will chuck you a few dollars on Patreon every month. You only need a few thousand or so of those people to suddenly be earning more than developers at the company that made the game in the first place. That is fundamentally unsustainable for the games industry. That doesn't mean it's bad, I for one love it and all the take down notices in the world seem unlikely to put the cat back in the bag at this point.

But to act like it's not massively disruptive, or that it's just people making a few quid off a hobby and not modders turning their work into a full time job that pays better that most developer roles at game studios is being disingenuous.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 12:50:55


Post by: Arbitrator


 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.

I hope they go after battle report channels honestly. It might actually get most of them to cover non-GW war games.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 13:27:18


Post by: Mentlegen324


So am I missing something here?

- We haven't been told who contacted the guy, but the blame has still been immediately placed on GW regardless of who it actually was.
- He doesn't appear to have been told to stop working on his mods - something that would completely defeat the point of there being a workshop for the game in the first place, anyway.
- Neither does he appear to have been told his patreon itself is not allowed.
- The result of what has happened here so far has been that he's removed the patreon/paid links from his workshop files, and taken the mentions of Warhammer off his Patreon. That implies what he appears to be have told, is he can't use the Warhammer IP in order to pretty much advertise his patreon.
- CA's workshop terms say you're not allowed to monetize your work in the first place, which he was apparently doing by having parts of things locked behind a paywall.
- Other modders don't seem to have had this happen to them
- This guy supposedly doesn't have too good a reputation within the modding community in the first place.

Obviously later information might shed some more light on things, but considering all that at the moment it just seems utterly absurd that some are right away going for the "GW Evil!" take of things. Just like the other thread and elsewhere, this sort of thing really seems to attract those who appear to just detest GW and act as if they're always in the wrong no matter what. There always seems to be a lot of misrepresenting or using ridiculous arguments that take things to an absurd level in order to try and dismiss stuff regardless of what the facts of the situation are.

They don't appear to be "going after modders" because of anything at all to do with the mods themselves.

Not only that, but another modder has said that what has been said here is misleading.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 13:58:39


Post by: catbarf


 Flipsiders wrote:
From a non-legal standpoint, do you see an issue with a company releasing a broken or incomplete product under the assumption that people can just add in the extra components themselves afterward?


For one thing, that's de facto Bethesda, and modders have been dutifully fixing their games for two decades. The vast majority of that time there's been no monetization avenue available. So whether or not the modders can have a Patreon is really not the issue there.

But Bethesda's attitude isn't widespread, their games are rightfully panned on release for game-breaking bugs and incompleteness, and most importantly the majority of gamers don't deal with mods at all. The people who are willing to deal with downloading a mod manager and troubleshooting load orders- or even just going to the Steam workshop to sort the wheat from the chaff- represent a niche within gamers. Modding has brought new life to otherwise unsuccessful games, but deliberately half-baking a game and counting on modders has never seemed to be a viable business strategy.

Second, it's not like the idea of being able to take donations or direct payment for fixing/improving a product is a novel concept for which we have no precedent and cannot predict the effects; it's a common practice that's only sticky in the digital realm thanks to three decades of corporate litigation eroding competition and consumer rights. The fact that I can host a Youtube tech tips channel showing how to fix common problems does not appear to have resulted in a culture where household appliances and consumer electronics are regularly released broken or incomplete under the assumption that you can just fix it yourself. And if that were the case, why would the appropriate solution be to demonetize that Youtube channel, rather than holding the company accountable?

Modders having Patreons for their work is harmless. Mods only represent a threat to a company's profitability if the company develops paid DLC that overlaps with content already developed and offered for free by the community; but in that case whether the modder has a tip jar or not is irrelevant.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Obviously later information might shed some more light on things, but considering all that at the moment it just seems utterly absurd that some are right away going for the "GW Evil!" take of things. Just like the other thread and elsewhere, this sort of thing really seems to attract those who appear to just detest GW and act as if they're always in the wrong no matter what.


And what about those who choose to interpret any sort of criticism of general industry practices as 'GW evil'?


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 14:10:45


Post by: Gallahad


 Arbitrator wrote:
 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Its going to be hilarious seeing the kinds of things GW apologists will say in a month or two when GW starts destroying people's livelihoods. Only a matter of time before they come after batrep and painting channels that feature GW products and have active patreons. "Because they're making money off our product!" Seriously some smooth brain level thinking.

I can understand shutting down someone charging people for warhammer IP mods. But setting up a tip jar on patreon for people who enjoy your work is not wrong in the slightest.

I hope they go after battle report channels honestly. It might actually get most of them to cover non-GW war games.


I hope they do this too. Would breath new life into the hobby for many to venture outside of GW games.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 14:11:46


Post by: Mentlegen324


 catbarf wrote:
 Flipsiders wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Obviously later information might shed some more light on things, but considering all that at the moment it just seems utterly absurd that some are right away going for the "GW Evil!" take of things. Just like the other thread and elsewhere, this sort of thing really seems to attract those who appear to just detest GW and act as if they're always in the wrong no matter what.


And what about those who choose to interpret any sort of criticism of general industry practices as 'GW evil'?


There's nothing wrong with criticism or disagreeing, but when it involves things like immediately portraying GW as unequivocally in the wrong regardless of the facts of it (like here, where we don't know who contacted him or what was said, yet some are saying they'll do things like go after battle reports next), then that's a different situation.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 14:14:45


Post by: Gert


 Arbitrator wrote:
I hope they go after battle report channels honestly. It might actually get most of them to cover non-GW war games.


 Gallahad wrote:
I hope they do this too. Would breath new life into the hobby for many to venture outside of GW games.


Yeah, I too really hope they go after the livelihoods of hobbyists doing nothing wrong and shut down some of the biggest pieces of free marketing GW could hope for.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 14:20:09


Post by: Kanluwen


I genuinely don't think battle reports or the like are the "free marketing" you believe them to be.

They get exposure from it, certainly, but how many of these batreps are actually done in a way that new players can really understand? Most of the ones that I've had suggested to me via YouTube are tourney lists and loaded up with talk about "The Meta".


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 14:26:55


Post by: NAVARRO


 Gert wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
I hope they go after battle report channels honestly. It might actually get most of them to cover non-GW war games.


 Gallahad wrote:
I hope they do this too. Would breath new life into the hobby for many to venture outside of GW games.


Yeah, I too really hope they go after the livelihoods of hobbyists doing nothing wrong and shut down some of the biggest pieces of free marketing GW could hope for.


Theres a lesson to be learned about GW...when they shrink we see more of other companies products, when they grow we see less. ATM GW is quite popular and still growing and you dont hear much about what others are doing.

So I welcome people not supporting a company that has no interest in working with you and switch to other equally cool projects. Its actually a good thing if most drop covering or talking about GW. They clearly dont need any of our support to grow.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 14:29:48


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Kanluwen wrote:
I genuinely don't think battle reports or the like are the "free marketing" you believe them to be.

They get exposure from it, certainly, but how many of these batreps are actually done in a way that new players can really understand? Most of the ones that I've had suggested to me via YouTube are tourney lists and loaded up with talk about "The Meta".


Lolwut, the most ubiquitous ones (Tabletop Tactics, Winters SEO, Striking Scorpion, I guess MWG still kinda) are pretty accessible. And then you have things like Vanguard Tactics where there is a concerted effort to explain lists and in-game tactics. This is just off base.

GW 100% gets more money out of me because of the batrep ecosystem. I watch batreps with the factions I like while painting them, I see great/cool/interesting things happen, it makes me want more models and I impulse buy, it's a very good feedback loop for GW and I'm probably far from the only person who engages in it (even if I hate myself for it a little). The stuff GW puts out is definitely lacking in quality in comparison to Winters and TTT.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 14:32:34


Post by: Gert


 Kanluwen wrote:
I genuinely don't think battle reports or the like are the "free marketing" you believe them to be.

They were for me. Watching people play Apoc battles on YT is the number one reason I expanded most of my armies, Apoc was the endgame and all of us wanted to get there.

They get exposure from it, certainly, but how many of these batreps are actually done in a way that new players can really understand? Most of the ones that I've had suggested to me via YouTube are tourney lists and loaded up with talk about "The Meta".

Channels like MWG and StrikingScorpion82 pretty much filled my Warhammer content when I was first getting into the hobby, watching things like Apocalypticon and Narrative Campaigns.
Obviously, times have changed and clickbait title "news" channels get all the views.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NAVARRO wrote:
Theres a lesson to be learned about GW...when they shrink we see more of other companies products, when they grow we see less. ATM GW is quite popular and still growing and you dont hear much about what others are doing.

So I welcome people not supporting a company that has no interest in working with you and switch to other equally cool projects. Its actually a good thing if most drop covering or talking about GW. They clearly dont need any of our support to grow.

You can support other companies without wanting people to lose their income. That's what I'm opposing here.
Play all the games you want but don't be a prat because a YouTuber isn't covering Bolt Action. I like other TTWG's that aren't GW games but they don't make for good viewing.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 14:43:17


Post by: Theophony


 Gert wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
I hope they go after battle report channels honestly. It might actually get most of them to cover non-GW war games.


 Gallahad wrote:
I hope they do this too. Would breath new life into the hobby for many to venture outside of GW games.


Yeah, I too really hope they go after the livelihoods of hobbyists doing nothing wrong and shut down some of the biggest pieces of free marketing GW could hope for.


GW wants to handle their own marketing, which is their right. Some Youtubers I have seen are atrocious and I would not like to have them representing my brand. GW is not concerned about our livelihoods plain and simple. It is not their responsibility to support us. They are a business that is trying to control how they are perceived by the general public, not an online forum. If these battle reports are the only way people are coming into the game (Really stretching imagination with that ), then you want to make sure that the people making them are putting out quality material and not just making money off of your name and product.

I'd love to see some other systems covered as well. I have seen some great videos created by people here on DakkaDakka to promote games that don't ask for money in return.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 14:47:51


Post by: NAVARRO



If that is done as an income then its a different ball game and I urge them to start covering other games for sure, I mean take all the risks you want but dont be surprised if you put all the eggs in just one basket that is not yours.



GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 14:49:59


Post by: Gert


Right, so it's 100% clear. GW isn't going after BatRep Channels but posters here said they should.
I am saying these posters are being prats for wanting to remove people's incomes just because they play GW games on their channels.
Is that clear?
Play whatever games you want but don't wish harm on someone else just because they play GW games and make money off it.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 15:00:15


Post by: Sarouan


 Gert wrote:
Right, so it's 100% clear. GW isn't going after BatRep Channels but posters here said they should.
I am saying these posters are being prats for wanting to remove people's incomes just because they play GW games on their channels.
Is that clear?
Play whatever games you want but don't wish harm on someone else just because they play GW games and make money off it.


No. They are rather reacting to the fearmongering / doom prophets saying that GW could go next after battle report channels.

Because, let's be honest ; if GW is giving free copies of their books in advance to some of these channels, that's already a sign that they have no interest to go after them.


Like someone said on Reddit : on brand protection, in comparison to others companies, GW is actually quite generous with the handling of their IP. They don't go as far as they could do like, say, Disney or Nintendo.

Youtubers making "outrage" videos about them and calling for boycott should be aware of that already. You don't want a GW handling things like Disney or Nintendo, watch my words. If that happens, boy you will wish we could go back to these current days...


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 15:34:13


Post by: NAVARRO


GW is unpredictable and that should have been clear to everyone when several years ago the IP showed its ugly face on forums and community.

What Im saying is games mods, channels etc that do it for fun have nothing to lose but if these guys go all feet in for profits as a business then be prepared to act like one.

Some business win others lose some take calculated risks others dont... I really dont care.

Theres plenty of games and war-games to be involved in so yeah branch out if you want or need to ( seems like a good thing rather than the GW saturation we see today).


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 15:38:40


Post by: Sarouan


 NAVARRO wrote:

Theres plenty of games and war-games to be involved in so yeah branch out if you want or need to ( seems like a good thing rather than the GW saturation we see today).


There is a simple reason for that : it's because it brings more viewers.

Like it or not, GW is the bigger market in miniature games. So, of course channels doing money out of it would want to use a license that already has a wide audience. It means more viewers for them, and potentially more backers too.

That's why the current argument used by Youtubers using Warhammer IP saying their channels give free advertisement to GW isn't entirely true..they conveniently forget to say that without GW, they wouldn't be where they are. They may not even exist at all in some cases. True, some of their viewers certainly came into the Hobby thanks to their channel, but I think the opposite is more than often true as well : Warhammer fans do enjoy Warhammer content, after all, and they are mostly the ones coming to watch channels using Warhammer IP.

Shifting to an obscure game won't mean they'll gain success. That's why Alfabusa was so afraid as well to say he stops doing Warhammer : he was afraid of losing his audience and, thus, money. For now, thanks to this buzz and sympathy brought to him, the opposite happened...but will it last after it stops getting in the news ? That's the real question here.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 15:57:39


Post by: judgedoug


 Mentlegen324 wrote:
So am I missing something here?

- We haven't been told who contacted the guy, but the blame has still been immediately placed on GW regardless of who it actually was.
- He doesn't appear to have been told to stop working on his mods - something that would completely defeat the point of there being a workshop for the game in the first place, anyway.
- Neither does he appear to have been told his patreon itself is not allowed.
- The result of what has happened here so far has been that he's removed the patreon/paid links from his workshop files, and taken the mentions of Warhammer off his Patreon. That implies what he appears to be have told, is he can't use the Warhammer IP in order to pretty much advertise his patreon.
- CA's workshop terms say you're not allowed to monetize your work in the first place, which he was apparently doing by having parts of things locked behind a paywall.
- Other modders don't seem to have had this happen to them
- This guy supposedly doesn't have too good a reputation within the modding community in the first place.

Obviously later information might shed some more light on things, but considering all that at the moment it just seems utterly absurd that some are right away going for the "GW Evil!" take of things. Just like the other thread and elsewhere, this sort of thing really seems to attract those who appear to just detest GW and act as if they're always in the wrong no matter what. There always seems to be a lot of misrepresenting or using ridiculous arguments that take things to an absurd level in order to try and dismiss stuff regardless of what the facts of the situation are.

They don't appear to be "going after modders" because of anything at all to do with the mods themselves.

Not only that, but another modder has said that what has been said here is misleading.


Thank you for this summary. It was getting painful slogging through a bunch of back and forth from people inventing or guessing at what actually happened.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 16:00:28


Post by: yukishiro1


 Just Tony wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
No, GW told at least one animator that they had to take down their videos whether they were monetized or not.

Plus, GW would probably claim it owned the IP rights to the concept of a cat.


Why are you here? I mean, you obviously detest GW on a cellular level, so why participate in ANYTHING to do with their hobbies?


I'm here to discuss topics related to tabletop gaming - you know, the purpose of these forums - not to personally insult people. Your motives appear to be different.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 16:03:27


Post by: Catulle


 catbarf wrote:


Well, uh, good thing this thread has nothing to do with TTS then, right?


Well, that was on me and my multi-multi-tab habit, wasn't it? Sorry!


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 16:05:04


Post by: NAVARRO


@Sarouan

I'm aware of that and thats why a cat licking his bum on a YouTube video has 10 millions of views while an in-depth tutorial about drawing feline anatomy has 10 views.

But by that line of thought there should be no TTG videos either since they are such a small flick of YT interests.

Like I said on the Alfa thread I welcome him moving away from GW and that he should really try to find another Part time job, exactly for the same reasons here.

You choose to work/get an income from an unpredictable company, by your own choice, theres no agreements or negotiations or conversations etc. Its of no surprise that you may be closed down.

Similar to game mods I guess, not sure if there was pre agreements.



GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 16:56:46


Post by: Catulle


 Gert wrote:
Channels like MWG and StrikingScorpion82 pretty much filled my Warhammer content when I was first getting into the hobby, watching things like Apocalypticon and Narrative Campaigns.
Obviously, times have changed and clickbait title "news" channels get all the views.

People give MWG a lot of guff for not being on point with the rules, but honestly even that serves a public good. When I was learning Warmachine (arguably a far better game to watch live than 40k), being able to *spot* rules errors was a real learning keystone.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 17:27:05


Post by: Argive


I really hope that some of the major lore channels disappearing is NOT at the end of this rope GW are tuggin..

The level of dedication and research to some of of those videos is some academics scholarly level of work..

If there is a "Devid Beckham studies" course at uni. I think its about time we introduce a "warhmamer studies" where people can dedicate their lives to discovering the true nature of the emperor and the old ones :p


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 23:00:37


Post by: Mario


catbarf wrote:
Flipsiders wrote:Mitigating damages is an important moral consideration of IP law, but encouraging original work is almost as important.
Says who?

Seriously. IP protections are invoked by the rightsholder to defend ownership of their content against unlicensed use. Those rights are the maintenance of the rightsholder; not society as a whole over some nebulous principle of encouraging original work.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_States#Purpose_of_copyright
The Congress shall have Power [...] to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.
— United States Constitution

The goal of copyright law, as set forth in the Copyright Clause of the US Constitution, is "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."[6] This includes incentivizing the creation of art, literature, architecture, music, and other works of authorship. As with many legal doctrines, the effectiveness of copyright law in achieving its stated purpose is a matter of debate.[7]
The original idea (before endless copyright protection extensions) was that you'd get the exclusive copyright for a limited time (14 years, plus a possible 14 year extension) and after that your work would fall into the public domain "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts".

It wasn't supposed to be about corporations hoarding some copyright for a hundred years and "defending" it. Works were supposed to to be shared. Copyright was a compromise to incentivise creation, not to enable hoarding. That 14 year protection was for a time when you couldn't sent your work around the whole world with one click of your mouse.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 23:08:13


Post by: Argive


Mario wrote:
catbarf wrote:
Flipsiders wrote:Mitigating damages is an important moral consideration of IP law, but encouraging original work is almost as important.
Says who?

Seriously. IP protections are invoked by the rightsholder to defend ownership of their content against unlicensed use. Those rights are the maintenance of the rightsholder; not society as a whole over some nebulous principle of encouraging original work.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_States#Purpose_of_copyright
The Congress shall have Power [...] to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.
— United States Constitution

The goal of copyright law, as set forth in the Copyright Clause of the US Constitution, is "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."[6] This includes incentivizing the creation of art, literature, architecture, music, and other works of authorship. As with many legal doctrines, the effectiveness of copyright law in achieving its stated purpose is a matter of debate.[7]
The original idea (before endless copyright protection extensions) was that you'd get the exclusive copyright for a limited time (14 years, plus a possible 14 year extension) and after that your work would fall into the public domain "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts".

It wasn't supposed to be about corporations hoarding some copyright for a hundred years and "defending" it. Works were supposed to to be shared. Copyright was a compromise to incentivise creation, not to enable hoarding. That 14 year protection was for a time when you couldn't sent your work around the whole world with one click of your mouse.


At the other side of the spectrum, china's entire MO is literally making knock offs of EVERYTHING and ANYTHING.
Nobody cares about US congress provisions over there..


But some countries still have a limited time provision on copy right.
I believe UK is at 70 years.. Could be wrong as its been a long time since I learned about it lol


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/05 23:52:47


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Argive wrote:
I really hope that some of the major lore channels disappearing is at the end of this rope GW are tuggin..


This is something a lot of the lore channels are sweating over.

Word has it that this GW modding business is not limited to CA linked games, but I've been asked not to share the who's and whys. Not that I actually know them, but someone on discord was making people swear to silence. . I suspect that it's GW rather than CA, or even Valve, that are pushing this. Accoridng ot Radeous, there's going to be an announcement soon, but I'm not sure I believe him.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 00:02:13


Post by: Sarouan


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I really hope that some of the major lore channels disappearing is at the end of this rope GW are tuggin..


This is something a lot of the lore channels are sweating over.

Word has it that this GW modding business is not limited to CA linked games, but I've been asked not to share the who's and whys. Not that I actually know them, but someone on discord was making people swear to silence. . I suspect that it's GW rather than CA, or even Valve, that are pushing this. Accoridng ot Radeous, there's going to be an announcement soon, but I'm not sure I believe him.


Just say you used the link I showed you before and read the interventions of Venris like me. You shouldn't try to make it sound like you're personnally in the knowledge.

You suspect it's GW because both Radious and Venris didn't name who and say "wait for the official statement" and you'd like it to be GW since that's what you're claiming from the beginning.

Though you forgot to take into account that one person from CA did state in the announcements section that an official statement will follow later.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 00:04:02


Post by: BaronIveagh


Sarouan wrote:


Just say you used the link I showed you before and read the interventions of Venris like me. You shouldn't try to make it sound like you're personnally in the knowledge.

You suspect it's GW because both Radious and Venris didn't name who and say "wait for the official statement" and you'd like it to be GW since that's what you're claiming from the beginning.

Though you forgot to take into account that one person from CA did state in the announcements section that an official statement will follow later.


What Link?

Edit: Went and found what you were talking about. Sorry, but I didn't need your link to find that out, I too have the power of reddit.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 00:22:52


Post by: Argive


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I really hope that some of the major lore channels disappearing is at the end of this rope GW are tuggin..


This is something a lot of the lore channels are sweating over.

Word has it that this GW modding business is not limited to CA linked games, but I've been asked not to share the who's and whys. Not that I actually know them, but someone on discord was making people swear to silence. . I suspect that it's GW rather than CA, or even Valve, that are pushing this. Accoridng ot Radeous, there's going to be an announcement soon, but I'm not sure I believe him.


I typod big time - I meant to say I hope channels disappearing is NOT at the end of the rope

Personaly - I like nothing more than to veg out at and listen to an epic 1.5hr breakdown of the most bonkers weapons in 40k universe by Luetin while I paint
Or a time line universe breakdown of 40k (if such a thing is possible). Or virtually any other topic that's remotely interesting..

As someone already interested in the setting, the lore channels are an amazing archive of information.
So much of their research is for stuff no longer in production and hasn't been for decades in a lot cases; as a new comer, you simply would not be aware of the existence of old school lore.
I certainly don't have the time, will or resource to look through obscure OOP WD, novels or whatever else to learn what a tyranid would normally eat on a Tuesday..

This would sterilise the universe/setting/hobby to unbearable amounts.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 00:24:35


Post by: Mentlegen324


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I really hope that some of the major lore channels disappearing is at the end of this rope GW are tuggin..


This is something a lot of the lore channels are sweating over.

Word has it that this GW modding business is not limited to CA linked games, but I've been asked not to share the who's and whys. Not that I actually know them, but someone on discord was making people swear to silence. . I suspect that it's GW rather than CA, or even Valve, that are pushing this. Accoridng ot Radeous, there's going to be an announcement soon, but I'm not sure I believe him.


Is this not being limited to CA games meant to change something here? If that is the case, then it suggests what they're doing is stopping people profiting off their IP via using their brand to advertise their patreons and such. I don't see how it really has much of a difference whether that is limited to CA games or not, it's the other part that's the important factor.

The whole "announcement" thing seems odd to me too, I don't get the impression they've signed anything that means they actually can't tell us the details of what they know and have been told.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 00:28:23


Post by: BrianDavion


 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I really hope that some of the major lore channels disappearing is at the end of this rope GW are tuggin..


This is something a lot of the lore channels are sweating over.

Word has it that this GW modding business is not limited to CA linked games, but I've been asked not to share the who's and whys. Not that I actually know them, but someone on discord was making people swear to silence. . I suspect that it's GW rather than CA, or even Valve, that are pushing this. Accoridng ot Radeous, there's going to be an announcement soon, but I'm not sure I believe him.


Is this not being limited to CA games meant to change something here? If that is the case, then it suggests what they're doing is stopping people profiting off their IP via using their brand to advertise their patreons and such. I don't see how it really has much of a difference whether that is limited to CA games or not, it's the other part that's the important factor.

The whole "announcement" thing seems odd to me too, I don't get the impression they've signed anything that means they actually can't tell us the details of what they know.


agreed. reading his post it just sounds like GW is implimenting policies for mods for their games... and guess what guys... Every game does that, it's why you can't find nudity mods for say.. skyrim on the steam workshop, even though everyone knows those exist


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 00:37:45


Post by: BaronIveagh


BrianDavion wrote:

agreed. reading his post it just sounds like GW is implimenting policies for mods for their games... and guess what guys... Every game does that, it's why you can't find nudity mods for say.. skyrim on the steam workshop, even though everyone knows those exist


Actually for a long time CBBE's Russian translation was on Steam. But I digress.

However, you also don't hear about Bethesda sending Lover's Lab Cease and Desists, to use the same metaphor. It's NOT actually something all publishers do. Generally speaking most mods are treated as the modder's work, rather than the Game developers, and THIER property. Example: DOTA, which started out as a Warcraft 3 mod. Blizzard's position that it owns all mods to it's games is considered an outlier rather than the mainstream, and has yet to go anywhere in court.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 00:38:52


Post by: Argive


BrianDavion wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I really hope that some of the major lore channels disappearing is at the end of this rope GW are tuggin..


This is something a lot of the lore channels are sweating over.

Word has it that this GW modding business is not limited to CA linked games, but I've been asked not to share the who's and whys. Not that I actually know them, but someone on discord was making people swear to silence. . I suspect that it's GW rather than CA, or even Valve, that are pushing this. Accoridng ot Radeous, there's going to be an announcement soon, but I'm not sure I believe him.


Is this not being limited to CA games meant to change something here? If that is the case, then it suggests what they're doing is stopping people profiting off their IP via using their brand to advertise their patreons and such. I don't see how it really has much of a difference whether that is limited to CA games or not, it's the other part that's the important factor.

The whole "announcement" thing seems odd to me too, I don't get the impression they've signed anything that means they actually can't tell us the details of what they know.


agreed. reading his post it just sounds like GW is implimenting policies for mods for their games... and guess what guys... Every game does that, it's why you can't find nudity mods for say.. skyrim on the steam workshop, even though everyone knows those exist


Not every game aggressively persecutes mods or modders "Coz Mah Ip!!!" though...

Not really sure how this will all end, but when a company whips out its giant D**& on the table it usually means that's where they're heading..

As someone who has pre purchased TWWH3 and pretty much bought every single DLC for TW WH games/ many TW games if the mods I use / want to try out are attacked (and this will 100% result in future mods not happening for the new games), I will simply request a refund and happily walk away from the franchise.

I can play other games or spend my time & money on limitless number of other things...


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 00:51:46


Post by: Arachnofiend


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I really hope that some of the major lore channels disappearing is at the end of this rope GW are tuggin..


This is something a lot of the lore channels are sweating over.

Even undeniably scholarly work like dedicated history channels run by tenured professors get their videos demonetized constantly, Youtube has little regard for educational videos. If GW wants the lore videos gone, they will be.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 01:10:24


Post by: BrianDavion


 BaronIveagh wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

agreed. reading his post it just sounds like GW is implimenting policies for mods for their games... and guess what guys... Every game does that, it's why you can't find nudity mods for say.. skyrim on the steam workshop, even though everyone knows those exist


Actually for a long time CBBE's Russian translation was on Steam. But I digress.

However, you also don't hear about Bethesda sending Lover's Lab Cease and Desists, to use the same metaphor. It's NOT actually something all publishers do. Generally speaking most mods are treated as the modder's work, rather than the Game developers, and THIER property. Example: DOTA, which started out as a Warcraft 3 mod. Blizzard's position that it owns all mods to it's games is considered an outlier rather than the mainstream, and has yet to go anywhere in court.


I'm weighing in specificly on what's being said. they where told they could not have pateron links on their steam workshop


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 01:25:16


Post by: BaronIveagh


BrianDavion wrote:


I'm weighing in specificly on what's being said. they where told they could not have pateron links on their steam workshop


But that's CA's policy, not Steams (IIRC). Thus, my point still stands. It'd be like Bethesda trying to demontize people on Nexus mods.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 03:43:45


Post by: BrianDavion


 BaronIveagh wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:


I'm weighing in specificly on what's being said. they where told they could not have pateron links on their steam workshop


But that's CA's policy, not Steams (IIRC). Thus, my point still stands. It'd be like Bethesda trying to demontize people on Nexus mods.


Nah steam acts according to the wishes of the developers when it includes mods or not, thats why some games don't even have mod support on steam


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 08:50:45


Post by: Grimtuff


 Arachnofiend wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I really hope that some of the major lore channels disappearing is at the end of this rope GW are tuggin..


This is something a lot of the lore channels are sweating over.

Even undeniably scholarly work like dedicated history channels run by tenured professors get their videos demonetized constantly, Youtube has little regard for educational videos. If GW wants the lore videos gone, they will be.


Then all that will be left is rubbish like 1d4chan. Do you want to have newer players think Gulliman is bonking Yvraine? Because that's how you get people to think Gulliman is bonking Yvraine...


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 08:54:30


Post by: Orlanth


 Grimtuff wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I really hope that some of the major lore channels disappearing is at the end of this rope GW are tuggin..


This is something a lot of the lore channels are sweating over.

Even undeniably scholarly work like dedicated history channels run by tenured professors get their videos demonetized constantly, Youtube has little regard for educational videos. If GW wants the lore videos gone, they will be.


Then all that will be left is rubbish like 1d4chan. Do you want to have newer players think Gulliman is bonking Yvraine? Because that's how you get people to think Gulliman is bonking Yvraine...


I am pretty sure 1d4chan is near the top of content creators GW want rid of. But the website is on its own platform and protected by its obvious use of review and parody.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 09:26:36


Post by: BrianDavion


 Grimtuff wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Argive wrote:
I really hope that some of the major lore channels disappearing is at the end of this rope GW are tuggin..


This is something a lot of the lore channels are sweating over.

Even undeniably scholarly work like dedicated history channels run by tenured professors get their videos demonetized constantly, Youtube has little regard for educational videos. If GW wants the lore videos gone, they will be.


Then all that will be left is rubbish like 1d4chan. Do you want to have newer players think Gulliman is bonking Yvraine? Because that's how you get people to think Gulliman is bonking Yvraine...


or ya know reading lexnicum etc. but I suppose expecting kids to read these days is a bit to much


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 10:28:56


Post by: Mentlegen324


 BaronIveagh wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:


I'm weighing in specificly on what's being said. they where told they could not have pateron links on their steam workshop


But that's CA's policy, not Steams (IIRC). Thus, my point still stands. It'd be like Bethesda trying to demontize people on Nexus mods.


People are allowed to make mods for Warhammer games, they're allowed to have a patrreon, but what it seems GW are stopping here is them using those Warhammer Mods to advertise their Patreon. They don't seem to "going after modders" like the title claims, but the use of their brand name itself to generate income.

Sunno wrote:


Now it seems that GW have contacted many of the big mod makers



I'm wondering, just where did this part of the line come from - who are the rest? How did 1, potentially 2, mod makers being contacted became "many"?



GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 12:40:16


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Mentlegen324 wrote:

I'm wondering, just where did this part of the line come from - who are the rest? How did 1, potentially 2, mod makers being contacted became "many"?


You know, we've heard this line from GW apologists before, when they started mass mailing C&Ds. First it was one or two sites, then 10 sites, then 30, then 50...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

People are allowed to make mods for Warhammer games, they're allowed to have a patrreon, but what it seems GW are stopping here is them using those Warhammer Mods to advertise their Patreon.


No, they're not. Read the IP policy.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 12:44:27


Post by: Mentlegen324


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

I'm wondering, just where did this part of the line come from - who are the rest? How did 1, potentially 2, mod makers being contacted became "many"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

People are allowed to make mods for Warhammer games, they're allowed to have a patrreon, but what it seems GW are stopping here is them using those Warhammer Mods to advertise their Patreon.


No, they're not. Read the IP policy.


You're calling me a "GW apologist" for asking why 2 people (I've only seen 2 mentioned in this thread and haven't seen any others discussed elsewhere) was written as "many"? Really?

And no, It's absurd to claim mods aren't allowed when that's exactly what the workshop is - mods for a warhammer game. Vermintide 2 has a workshop as well. So does Gladius. Mods are allowed and that hasn't changed. What the guidelines say you aren't allowed is making your own games, and what this situation so far appears to be is not being allowed to use the IP to advertise.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 13:37:24


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Mentlegen324 wrote:

And no, It's absurd to claim mods aren't allowed when that's exactly what the workshop is - mods for a warhammer game. Vermintide 2 has a workshop as well. So does Gladius. Mods are allowed and that hasn't changed. What the guidelines say you aren't allowed is making your own games, and what this situation so far appears to be is not being allowed to use the IP to advertise.


Because modding is copyright infringement, as mods are considered derivative works. Since GW's policy now expressly prohibits unlicensed games and apps, this would also include mods. Modding usually is at the discretion of the publisher, however, as the ultimate rights holder is GW, this gets muddled, and could be why CA made the distinction that it was not 'their' policy that had changed.

Further, just an FYI: Modding is a bit odd, as the law gives the rights holder the right to pursue, OR NOT, potential infringements. Some companies choose to exercise one, others the other, though to be blunt, lack of modding support can sink a game in the current market, and I suspect that GW is torpedoing their own potential income here, by assuming that video games work like table top games and people will buy their products no matter what.

It's entirely possible that previously, GW gave the game publishers free reign on the issue, and like animations, are now cracking down.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

You're calling me a "GW apologist" for asking why 2 people (I've only seen 2 mentioned in this thread and haven't seen any others discussed elsewhere) was written as "many"? Really?


No, I'm calling you a 'GW apologist' because that's all I've seen you post for about a week.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 15:19:16


Post by: catbarf


BrianDavion wrote:
agreed. reading his post it just sounds like GW is implimenting policies for mods for their games... and guess what guys... Every game does that, it's why you can't find nudity mods for say.. skyrim on the steam workshop, even though everyone knows those exist


That's absolutely wrong. You can't (easily) find NSFW mods on Steam Workshop simply because of Steam's policies, not because of developers/publishers. Valve doesn't want to deal with someone's kid grabbing an X-rated mod for an E-rated game off the workshop and blaming Steam. Off Steam, you can find nudity mods for damn near every mod-supported RPG made in the last two decades.

Most developers do not care about mods, or actively encourage a mod community and don't bother trying to curate it.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Because modding is copyright infringement, as mods are considered derivative works.


Sometimes. Maybe. Depends on the mod in question. Developing your own code to interface with an existing product is not necessarily derivative work. It depends on how much you reuse.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 15:40:00


Post by: BaronIveagh


 catbarf wrote:

Sometimes. Maybe. Depends on the mod in question. Developing your own code to interface with an existing product is not necessarily derivative work. It depends on how much you reuse.


Under the precedent set by the ruling in MAI Systems Corp. v. Peak Computer, Inc it is, since the very act of loading software into RAM produces an unauthorized copy. Yes, I know, that's mindbogglingly stupid, but it's an example of the problems where copyright and modern technology collide.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 16:20:02


Post by: catbarf


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 catbarf wrote:

Sometimes. Maybe. Depends on the mod in question. Developing your own code to interface with an existing product is not necessarily derivative work. It depends on how much you reuse.


Under the precedent set by the ruling in MAI Systems Corp. v. Peak Computer, Inc it is, since the very act of loading software into RAM produces an unauthorized copy. Yes, I know, that's mindbogglingly stupid, but it's an example of the problems where copyright and modern technology collide.


MAI v Peak was about a commercial repairman using an OS for which only the end user had a license agreement- it set a precedent for licensing but isn't directly relevant to mods. More directly relevant would be Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc., which established that use of a device intended to modify game code did not violate Nintendo's copyright, followed by Micro Star v. Formgen Inc., which narrowed the analysis to conclude that a pack of user-made mods for Duke Nukem 3D constituted a derivative work as it made use of story/characters from the original game and did not meet the standards of fair use. Those are also Ninth Circuit rulings.

Unless I missed something big in the couple of years since going through those in school, the current industry takeaway is that any mod leveraging assets from the original game- even indirectly- is derivative, but some mods might not violate copyright, or some might but could be defended as fair use. But most importantly, nobody particularly wants to go to court to find out, as it's more beneficial to everyone involved to either tolerate or encourage mods*.

* With the exception of those that circumvent security measures and thus both run afoul of DMCA restrictions and represent a financial threat to the publisher.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 16:42:50


Post by: puree


At the other side of the spectrum, china's entire MO is literally making knock offs of EVERYTHING and ANYTHING.
Nobody cares about US congress provisions over there..


what goes around comes around

China and the US are very similar on that - China isn't interested in other countries IP which would largely get in the way of their own current economic interests, and would largely be focused on benefitting the US or 'the west'.

Go back a century before the rise of the US over European powers and conventions and that was pretty much the same way the US saw stuff, IP laws from foreign places were largely side lined in favour of US economic self interest. For copyright they only finally brought themselves into the Berne treaty in the late 1980's.

PS I don' say that in a negative or positive way - it is simply to be expected that any nation will look to it's interest over such vague and notional concepts as rights of creators to somehow control who can copy what they created first.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 16:50:07


Post by: Platuan4th


The fairly recent crackdowns on KO producers in China has been largely of benefit to Western/US based companies with economic interests in China. China has definitely changed their policy regarding KOs and bootlegs, at least for major company IPs.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 16:57:49


Post by: Sarouan


 BaronIveagh wrote:

It's entirely possible that previously, GW gave the game publishers free reign on the issue, and like animations, are now cracking down.


Not really. GW's always controlling what the game publishers do with their IP. That's why they can't do whatever they want while depicting the background, factions or even the designs of everything Warhammer.

See also the CA guideline for Total War Warhammer mod that is up since 2016 here : https://www.totalwar.com/cc-disclaimer/

GW controlling their IP in video games and mods is nothing new.




No, I'm calling you a 'GW apologist' because that's all I've seen you post for about a week.


Pot calling the kettle, here. If he's a "GW apologist" for his posts, then what are you with your own distorting facts or jumping on conclusions unless called on it and forced to go back reluclantly. Guess someone could call you a "GW hater".

Won't really change the debate, anyway.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 16:59:43


Post by: Mentlegen324


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

And no, It's absurd to claim mods aren't allowed when that's exactly what the workshop is - mods for a warhammer game. Vermintide 2 has a workshop as well. So does Gladius. Mods are allowed and that hasn't changed. What the guidelines say you aren't allowed is making your own games, and what this situation so far appears to be is not being allowed to use the IP to advertise.


Because modding is copyright infringement, as mods are considered derivative works. Since GW's policy now expressly prohibits unlicensed games and apps, this would also include mods. Modding usually is at the discretion of the publisher, however, as the ultimate rights holder is GW, this gets muddled, and could be why CA made the distinction that it was not 'their' policy that had changed.

Further, just an FYI: Modding is a bit odd, as the law gives the rights holder the right to pursue, OR NOT, potential infringements. Some companies choose to exercise one, others the other, though to be blunt, lack of modding support can sink a game in the current market, and I suspect that GW is torpedoing their own potential income here, by assuming that video games work like table top games and people will buy their products no matter what.

It's entirely possible that previously, GW gave the game publishers free reign on the issue, and like animations, are now cracking down.


So in a situation where:

- a couple of mod makers have been contacted by someone. Those mod makers were supposedly asked to remove the warhammer branding from their patreons which they were using to profit/advertise.
- They were not made to either stop modding the games themselves, or take down their patreons
- CA are completely unaware of any sort of policy change
- GW have not taken any action against other mods - of which there are dozens for TW:W alone - in general and neither have they shown any indication of trying to stop mods themselves from being made
- Multiple other Warhammer games have workshop pages, the whole point of which is effectively giving users permission to make and allowing mod support officially
- Those other games have not had any action taken against their mods either
- GWs IP guidelines do not mention mods at all, only making games and apps without their permission as something not allowed

You've decided that "they're trying to stop modding" is what they're doing here, despite the action here involving the use of the brand as advertising and not the mods themselves, which means what has happened does not supporting that narrative at all?

Seems ironic how you call me a "GW apologist" yet you're misrepresenting the situation to try and make out GW to be in the wrong regardless of what has actually happened here.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 17:03:26


Post by: Sarouan


 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- GWs IP guidelines do not mention mods at all


Creative Assembly does. Makes sense, since it concerns their games.

Which is why I think it's not GW that contacted the modders here. Well...at least the two guys who did say they were.

In the modding community, most don't really care, since most modders don't actually have a patreon. Which is partly why Radious has such a bad reputation amongst them, apparently.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 17:27:47


Post by: yukishiro1


CA has never cared about mods, there is no absolutely reason to think it's them behind the policy enforcement change, unless they've been told they have to by GW.

It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together here and see the relationship between GW changing its guidelines and a mod for a GW IP game getting contacted.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 17:28:10


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I feel like the thread title is misleading.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 17:29:49


Post by: Kanluwen


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I feel like the thread title is misleading.

The thread has been since the outset. It was being discussed in the other IP related thread too.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 18:04:48


Post by: Togusa


Billicus wrote:
The modder patreons were never going to last, it's kind of amazing to me that people even thought they could get away with making money directly from mods


*Bethesda has entered the chat*


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 18:23:00


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


Togusa wrote:
Billicus wrote:
The modder patreons were never going to last, it's kind of amazing to me that people even thought they could get away with making money directly from mods


*Bethesda has entered the chat*


Well in their case, it was Bethesda making money directly from other people's mods.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 18:43:50


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Well in their case, it was Bethesda making money directly from other people's mods.


They actually allow you to monetize a mod, as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sarouan wrote:
Which is partly why Radious has such a bad reputation amongst them, apparently.


I would say the fact that he steals from other mods and fails to give credit just MIGHT be a more likely reason. Putting beta builds behind paywalls is pretty common.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

a couple of mod makers have been contacted by someone. Those mod makers were supposedly asked to remove the warhammer branding from their patreons which they were using to profit/advertise.


History suggests that none of the parties involved would have any trouble naming CA, and have done so in the past.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- They were not made to either stop modding the games themselves, or take down their patreons


Ignoring that making it impossible to fiance their mods effectively pulls the plug on further mods.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- CA are completely unaware of any sort of policy change


No, CA stated that they have not changed THEIR policies. Big difference.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- GW have not taken any action against other mods - of which there are dozens for TW:W alone - in general and neither have they shown any indication of trying to stop mods themselves from being made


You don't actually know that.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- Multiple other Warhammer games have workshop pages, the whole point of which is effectively giving users permission to make and allowing mod support officially


We do, but that's not point of those things. You're trying to link two unrelated things.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- Those other games have not had any action taken against their mods either'


You don't know that either.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- GWs IP guidelines do not mention mods at all, only making games and apps without their permission as something not allowed


Which are, effectively, the same thing. It's like arguing that if GW were to ban all fruit, they didn't specifically say 'apples'.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Seems ironic how you call me a "GW apologist" yet you're misrepresenting the situation to try and make out GW to be in the wrong regardless of what has actually happened here.


Because, and hear me out, just maybe, they ARE?


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 20:10:43


Post by: BrianDavion


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

And no, It's absurd to claim mods aren't allowed when that's exactly what the workshop is - mods for a warhammer game. Vermintide 2 has a workshop as well. So does Gladius. Mods are allowed and that hasn't changed. What the guidelines say you aren't allowed is making your own games, and what this situation so far appears to be is not being allowed to use the IP to advertise.


Because modding is copyright infringement, as mods are considered derivative works. Since GW's policy now expressly prohibits unlicensed games and apps, this would also include mods. Modding usually is at the discretion of the publisher, however, as the ultimate rights holder is GW, this gets muddled, and could be why CA made the distinction that it was not 'their' policy that had changed.

Further, just an FYI: Modding is a bit odd, as the law gives the rights holder the right to pursue, OR NOT, potential infringements. Some companies choose to exercise one, others the other, though to be blunt, lack of modding support can sink a game in the current market, and I suspect that GW is torpedoing their own potential income here, by assuming that video games work like table top games and people will buy their products no matter what.

It's entirely possible that previously, GW gave the game publishers free reign on the issue, and like animations, are now cracking down.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

You're calling me a "GW apologist" for asking why 2 people (I've only seen 2 mentioned in this thread and haven't seen any others discussed elsewhere) was written as "many"? Really?


No, I'm calling you a 'GW apologist' because that's all I've seen you post for about a week.


If GW wanted modding gone they'd just tell CA to have the workshop pulled from their games.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 20:35:36


Post by: Mentlegen324


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:

a couple of mod makers have been contacted by someone. Those mod makers were supposedly asked to remove the warhammer branding from their patreons which they were using to profit/advertise.


History suggests that none of the parties involved would have any trouble naming CA, and have done so in the past.


Someone contacted them is all we know. It could be GW. It could be CA. It could be a troll posing as either. Another modder contacted said he hasn't heard from GW directly and neither has Radious. So we have no idea who it was.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- They were not made to either stop modding the games themselves, or take down their patreons


Ignoring that making it impossible to fiance their mods effectively pulls the plug on further mods.


Ignoring that no, that isn't what's happened here. They have not "made it impossible to finance" their mods - these modders are still making money on their patreon for the work they've done, that hasn't been stopped. The difference is now they aren't allowed to advertise using the Warhammer Brand itself to generate attention.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- CA are completely unaware of any sort of policy change


No, CA stated that they have not changed THEIR policies. Big difference.


Yes, CA have not changed their Policy. A policy that would be dictated by GW as its their brand they're making use of. It's absurd if you think GW wouldn't contact CA and tell them modding wasn't allowed if that was what was going on here, but would instead just go straight for the modders.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- GW have not taken any action against other mods - of which there are dozens for TW:W alone - in general and neither have they shown any indication of trying to stop mods themselves from being made


You don't actually know that.


You're right, we don't know, that's the point! No one else has come forward and said anything like this has happened other than the 2 involved here, therefore there's no reason to think they've gone after anyone else.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- Multiple other Warhammer games have workshop pages, the whole point of which is effectively giving users permission to make and allowing mod support officially


We do, but that's not point of those things. You're trying to link two unrelated things.


Uhh...what? What are you even trying to say here? A workshop page is implemented as part of a game by the developers, the whole reason for it being there is for users to upload mods. How can that be anything other than the developers officially supporting mods?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- Those other games have not had any action taken against their mods either'


You don't know that either.


Same point as the other one. We don't know, therefore you should believe that they haven't until evidence suggests otherwise.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

- GWs IP guidelines do not mention mods at all, only making games and apps without their permission as something not allowed


Which are, effectively, the same thing. It's like arguing that if GW were to ban all fruit, they didn't specifically say 'apples'.


No, they aren't.

One is making games and apps without a license given to the user in any way and without any sort of official action taken to enable that

The other is making mods using the provisions given by the developer as part of their game. It is within the purview of that game and has been sanctioned by the developer.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Seems ironic how you call me a "GW apologist" yet you're misrepresenting the situation to try and make out GW to be in the wrong regardless of what has actually happened here.


Because, and hear me out, just maybe, they ARE?


Ignoring or misrepresenting the facts of a situation to try and fit a "GW Evil" narrative doesn't make that the case.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 20:38:44


Post by: BrianDavion


ya know back in the day asking money for mods was just a big no no, I rememebr it was a huuuge deal when you started seeing companies like bethesda trying to monentize modding. Now people are upset that the "big evil corperation" has said "yeah mods shouldn't be making money"
ahh it's funny how the world works


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 20:50:13


Post by: auticus


BrianDavion wrote:
ya know back in the day asking money for mods was just a big no no, I rememebr it was a huuuge deal when you started seeing companies like bethesda trying to monentize modding. Now people are upset that the "big evil corperation" has said "yeah mods shouldn't be making money"
ahh it's funny how the world works


Thats because our culture has moved into social media / twitch / "branding ourself" business models. Its a livelihood for some people now to profit off of their "brand" that they've created. It goes down even to the tournament organizer levels in local gaming groups where people fight gang wars over turf because people want to monetize their presence and make money off of running tournaments because a few high profile people do it and people feel there is a lot of money laying on the table that others will throw at them if they can establish a proper "brand".

You can't walk into a gaming store these days it seems without seeing someone with camera rigs all over a table streaming games and asking for patreon donations or trying to rack up youtube subs to get ad revenue off of.

People see just how much money others are going to throw at them for doing things like modding and instead of making their own games and their own IP want to latch on to something huge that already has the built in fan base.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 20:56:09


Post by: Arbitrator


BrianDavion wrote:
ya know back in the day asking money for mods was just a big no no, I rememebr it was a huuuge deal when you started seeing companies like bethesda trying to monentize modding. Now people are upset that the "big evil corperation" has said "yeah mods shouldn't be making money"
ahh it's funny how the world works

There's a difference between pay walling mods and having a Patreon/Ko-fi link you can choose to toss a few quid into. Plenty of modders have had a PayPal Donation button or something similar for years (particularly if they had theur own website), but these kind of things were never quite so structured or prominent as they are now, but otherwise the tipping pot has existed for a long time within the modding community.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 21:05:47


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


BrianDavion wrote:
ya know back in the day asking money for mods was just a big no no, I rememebr it was a huuuge deal when you started seeing companies like bethesda trying to monentize modding. Now people are upset that the "big evil corperation" has said "yeah mods shouldn't be making money"
ahh it's funny how the world works


There is a very big, significant diffrence between modders monetizing their works, and big corporations monetizing mods; the fact coroporations only get revenue from mods in one of these cases.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 21:20:07


Post by: Templarted


 auticus wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ya know back in the day asking money for mods was just a big no no, I rememebr it was a huuuge deal when you started seeing companies like bethesda trying to monentize modding. Now people are upset that the "big evil corperation" has said "yeah mods shouldn't be making money"
ahh it's funny how the world works


Thats because our culture has moved into social media / twitch / "branding ourself" business models. Its a livelihood for some people now to profit off of their "brand" that they've created. It goes down even to the tournament organizer levels in local gaming groups where people fight gang wars over turf because people want to monetize their presence and make money off of running tournaments because a few high profile people do it and people feel there is a lot of money laying on the table that others will throw at them if they can establish a proper "brand".

You can't walk into a gaming store these days it seems without seeing someone with camera rigs all over a table streaming games and asking for patreon donations or trying to rack up youtube subs to get ad revenue off of.

People see just how much money others are going to throw at them for doing things like modding and instead of making their own games and their own IP want to latch on to something huge that already has the built in fan base.


You do realise that making those videos takes a huge amount of time and the equipment is extremely expensive? People give money voluntarily to creators they like because the money earned via YouTube ad revenue is either little or inconsistent and they want the creators to keep making interesting and enjoyable content on a regular schedule, something that would be hard to do for free. As for your point on modding you do realise that mods range from small fixes to much larger assets? I’ve never know anyone purposely set out to make money via mods, patroons exist because modding modern games (to a decent level) is again massively time consuming and difficult, most large mods released for games would take years without some form of funding. People don’t “make their own games” as again grossly expensive unless you want to churn out terrible barely functional unity engine games. Nobody ever street fights for tournament turf.

People do need to make a distinction between massive corporations monetising mods and people voluntarily supporting creators.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 21:45:11


Post by: auticus


Templarted wrote:
 auticus wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
ya know back in the day asking money for mods was just a big no no, I rememebr it was a huuuge deal when you started seeing companies like bethesda trying to monentize modding. Now people are upset that the "big evil corperation" has said "yeah mods shouldn't be making money"
ahh it's funny how the world works


Thats because our culture has moved into social media / twitch / "branding ourself" business models. Its a livelihood for some people now to profit off of their "brand" that they've created. It goes down even to the tournament organizer levels in local gaming groups where people fight gang wars over turf because people want to monetize their presence and make money off of running tournaments because a few high profile people do it and people feel there is a lot of money laying on the table that others will throw at them if they can establish a proper "brand".

You can't walk into a gaming store these days it seems without seeing someone with camera rigs all over a table streaming games and asking for patreon donations or trying to rack up youtube subs to get ad revenue off of.

People see just how much money others are going to throw at them for doing things like modding and instead of making their own games and their own IP want to latch on to something huge that already has the built in fan base.


You do realise that making those videos takes a huge amount of time and the equipment is extremely expensive? People give money voluntarily to creators they like because the money earned via YouTube ad revenue is either little or inconsistent and they want the creators to keep making interesting and enjoyable content on a regular schedule, something that would be hard to do for free. As for your point on modding you do realise that mods range from small fixes to much larger assets? I’ve never know anyone purposely set out to make money via mods, patroons exist because modding modern games (to a decent level) is again massively time consuming and difficult, most large mods released for games would take years without some form of funding. People don’t “make their own games” as again grossly expensive unless you want to churn out terrible barely functional unity engine games. Nobody ever street fights for tournament turf.

People do need to make a distinction between massive corporations monetising mods and people voluntarily supporting creators.


I am a content creator so yes I realize the time it takes to do so.

I’ve never know anyone purposely set out to make money via mods, patroons exist because modding modern games (to a decent level) is again massively time consuming and difficult, most large mods released for games would take years without some form of funding.


I'm in the software pc game dev world professionally. There are many people that purposely set out to make a ton of money via their mods. There is a guy who does Minecraft Shaders (modding minecraft) that per his patreon pulls in over $60,000 a month, and there are several examples of that - enough so where it has become a holy grail for people to pursue.

People do need to make a distinction between massive corporations monetising mods and people voluntarily supporting creators.


I have no problem with that. If creators can find a big profile game to mod and get exposure and make a ton of money off of - good on them! But I also support game studios rights to say "you can't make money off of my IP / title".


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 22:11:54


Post by: Templarted


 auticus wrote:
Templarted wrote:
 auticus wrote:



You do realise that making those videos takes a huge amount of time and the equipment is extremely expensive? People give money voluntarily to creators they like because the money earned via YouTube ad revenue is either little or inconsistent and they want the creators to keep making interesting and enjoyable content on a regular schedule, something that would be hard to do for free. As for your point on modding you do realise that mods range from small fixes to much larger assets? I’ve never know anyone purposely set out to make money via mods, patroons exist because modding modern games (to a decent level) is again massively time consuming and difficult, most large mods released for games would take years without some form of funding. People don’t “make their own games” as again grossly expensive unless you want to churn out terrible barely functional unity engine games. Nobody ever street fights for tournament turf.

People do need to make a distinction between massive corporations monetising mods and people voluntarily supporting creators.


I am a content creator so yes I realize the time it takes to do so.

I’ve never know anyone purposely set out to make money via mods, patroons exist because modding modern games (to a decent level) is again massively time consuming and difficult, most large mods released for games would take years without some form of funding.


I'm in the software pc game dev world professionally. There are many people that purposely set out to make a ton of money via their mods. There is a guy who does Minecraft Shaders (modding minecraft) that per his patreon pulls in over $60,000 a month, and there are several examples of that - enough so where it has become a holy grail for people to pursue.

People do need to make a distinction between massive corporations monetising mods and people voluntarily supporting creators.


I have no problem with that. If creators can find a big profile game to mod and get exposure and make a ton of money off of - good on them! But I also support game studios rights to say "you can't make money off of my IP / title".


Then if you’re a content creators you’d obviously understand why people try and monetise content? It’s not a cultural thing at all, if you can be self sufficient doing something you enjoy I don’t see why you shouldn’t and it’s a cultural crisis point. Most of your points on patreon are just you assuming everyone is going into them to make money rather than having little or no interest in the game and wanting to improve a product or add items that aren’t available(plus it’s very bad business sense to spend hours on free mods and expect donations after). Most large moders tend to make mods out of passion for the games themselves, you just tend to generalise everyone who makes mods(or anyone who monetises content) as predatory grifters. If a game studio wants to be hostile to the modding community but seemingly ignorant of the reality of making content for modern games, (again content free at the point of access) then surely any flack they take is justified.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 22:21:09


Post by: auticus


Then if you’re a content creators you’d obviously understand why people try and monetise content?


Please refer to my last statement on the matter.

"I have no problem with that. If creators can find a big profile game to mod and get exposure and make a ton of money off of - good on them! But I also support game studios rights to say "you can't make money off of my IP / title"."

For Conquest I put in about $1000 of my own money putting up a website, paying an art team, and publishing a few pieces of content for the game. I didn't get a dime back. It was never my intention to make a dime off of Conquest. Its not my IP.

The modder's end goal, be it purely financial or just something they love that they can benefit off of - is irrelevant to me. All that is is trying to stoke an emotional argument.

Someone profiting off of another's IP is still someone profiting off of another's IP - regardless of if it is purely financially driven, or based on a love of the hobby. One is no more or less better than the other. If the source / author is fine with someone making $$$ off of their IP... awesome! If the source / author is not fine with it, I support them shutting that down just as well, be it a corporation or an indy dev, or a small team in between.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 23:11:23


Post by: Templarted


 auticus wrote:
Then if you’re a content creators you’d obviously understand why people try and monetise content?


Please refer to my last statement on the matter.

"I have no problem with that. If creators can find a big profile game to mod and get exposure and make a ton of money off of - good on them! But I also support game studios rights to say "you can't make money off of my IP / title"."

For Conquest I put in about $1000 of my own money putting up a website, paying an art team, and publishing a few pieces of content for the game. I didn't get a dime back. It was never my intention to make a dime off of Conquest. Its not my IP.

The modder's end goal, be it purely financial or just something they love that they can benefit off of - is irrelevant to me. All that is is trying to stoke an emotional argument.

Someone profiting off of another's IP is still someone profiting off of another's IP - regardless of if it is purely financially driven, or based on a love of the hobby. One is no more or less better than the other. If the source / author is fine with someone making $$$ off of their IP... awesome! If the source / author is not fine with it, I support them shutting that down just as well, be it a corporation or an indy dev, or a small team in between.


I’ve never argued that a corporation can’t shut down someone whose profiting off their IP directly or indirectly, I’ve argued against your points that monetising content is the result of a huge cultural problem when it’s mostly because it’s takes a huge amount of time and effort, and that most modding patreons exist as content for modern games takes a lot of time to develop. If corporations and developers want to go after modders who use patreons they can’t be surprised if there is a backlash. No company is going bankrupt because of free at the point of access content linked to a patreon, if a company wants to foster a modding community and the benefits of it then they should be able to understand the reality of it.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/06 23:51:50


Post by: auticus


Its not a huge cultural problem. Its that in response to the poster I was quoting originally, where modding was not monetized, over time people have seen how much money they can make over mods and the culture has shifted to become more about your brand and seeing how much money you can make from things like modding and streaming etc.

Its not a "problem". Its more the direction has shifted. Five or six years ago, people modded for fun and people streamed games for fun and did battle reports for fun.

Today a ton of people do it for profit because they saw the money laying on the table.

Thats not a "problem". Thats just pointing out a cultural shift.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/07 00:24:52


Post by: BrianDavion


I'd say it's a "problem" in so far as companies will need to address it somehow.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/07 00:53:39


Post by: BaronIveagh


BrianDavion wrote:
If GW wanted modding gone they'd just tell CA to have the workshop pulled from their games.


Unless their contract with CA prohibits that, which it might.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Yes, CA have not changed their Policy. A policy that would be dictated by GW as its their brand they're making use of. It's absurd if you think GW wouldn't contact CA and tell them modding wasn't allowed if that was what was going on here, but would instead just go straight for the modders.


Not necessarily. Remember that GW and Relic clashed over the same issue, and GW's solution was to go after the modders directly then, followed by demanding the removal of mod support in the following games.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
You're right, we don't know, that's the point! No one else has come forward and said anything like this has happened other than the 2 involved here, therefore there's no reason to think they've gone after anyone else.


Because we've been here before. For every recipient of a GW C&D that comes forward and raises a stink, four or five quietly vanish.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Uhh...what? What are you even trying to say here? A workshop page is implemented as part of a game by the developers, the whole reason for it being there is for users to upload mods. How can that be anything other than the developers officially supporting mods?


That's not universally true. Not only are there games which implemented mod support differently, but also ones that have never 'officially' implemented mod support that have Workshop pages. While this is more common in older titles, it's not actually unknown.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Same point as the other one. We don't know, therefore you should believe that they haven't until evidence suggests otherwise.


Except, knowing GW, it's a fairly safe bet that it is true. You guys keep arguing that we should give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume it's the players that are lying, but frankly, given GW's history, why in God's name would anyone do that? That's like willingly joining Jack the Ripper for a night on the town, and insulting your friends when they say 'you might not want to trust this guy'.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
No, they aren't.

One is making games and apps without a license given to the user in any way and without any sort of official action taken to enable that

The other is making mods using the provisions given by the developer as part of their game. It is within the purview of that game and has been sanctioned by the developer.


For legal purposes, there is no difference between those two things. Most mods are not actually sanctioned by the devs. There's no 'license' that changes hands. The only thing is that the devs, or whoever the rights holder is, have the option to pursue a copyright claim against the mod or not. Several mod authors have found themselves high and dry because of this in the past, when the Devs changed their minds suddenly. At the moment, all modding exists in a legal gray area, whether you take money for it or not.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Ignoring or misrepresenting the facts of a situation to try and fit a "GW Evil" narrative doesn't make that the case.


Ignoring or misrepresenting the facts of a situation to try and fit a "GW Good, Victims Evil!" narrative doesn't make that the case either.


BrianDavion wrote:ya know back in the day asking money for mods was just a big no no, I rememebr it was a huuuge deal when you started seeing companies like Bethesda trying to monetize modding. Now people are upset that the "big evil corperation" has said "yeah mods shouldn't be making money"
ahh it's funny how the world works


Yeah, Bethesda did get bitched about for a few days, but frankly it hardly started with them and paid mods have been around much longer when, to absolutely no one's surprise, Blizzard actually opened the doors on this, as well as Valve dabbling in it a bit before Bethesda decided to give the idea whirl.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/07 02:09:42


Post by: auticus


BrianDavion wrote:
I'd say it's a "problem" in so far as companies will need to address it somehow.


Im not so sure they need to address it. Its not like 3d printing and wargaming companies.

Either companies will allow it and not care, or they will have a no modding policy. I think both are viable.

For example - I have played the total war series since the 1990s, and I love the total warhammer series and I dont use a single mod. So banning modders doesn't bother me - I'd still play the game. However for others they claim they will give up total war forever if that happens.

You'll lose some people with a no mod policy but I dont know that it matters or how many that is. I know from being in the industry that the number of people that only use mods no matter what is not as high as you'd think.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/07 04:50:44


Post by: Togusa


 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Togusa wrote:
Billicus wrote:
The modder patreons were never going to last, it's kind of amazing to me that people even thought they could get away with making money directly from mods


*Bethesda has entered the chat*


Well in their case, it was Bethesda making money directly from other people's mods.


Yup, and they had the brazenness to try and claim they weren't paid mods too.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/07 18:38:51


Post by: Sarouan


 auticus wrote:

You'll lose some people with a no mod policy but I dont know that it matters or how many that is. I know from being in the industry that the number of people that only use mods no matter what is not as high as you'd think.


Mostly because mods are mainly a PC matter and consoles / mobile games aren't really concerned by that.

I do remember the time when mods were free and someone daring to ask for money for them was despised. Now, it changes a bit more but we still have people in the modding community that thinks making mods for money is dirty.

The culture change is not yet totally done.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/09 11:09:40


Post by: deano2099


Someone with a hugely successful mod and Patreon can make significantly more than the average developer working at the studio that made the game in the first place.

That's not necessarily a problem but it's certainly sure to cause significant disruption in the industry. Mod making can now be a monetary end unto itself, rather than being offered a job with the developer or elsewhere in the games industry being the absolute best result of creating a mod.


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/09 12:27:55


Post by: Arbitrator


As I watched videos about the Star Wars fan game 'Redemption' I realised someone needs to warn Disney their IP is clearly at risk if they don't defend it by shutting it down immediately!


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/09 12:59:32


Post by: a_typical_hero


Based on current information, GW would not have a problem with Redemption, if it was based in their universe. I didn't see any links asking for donations, Patreon or whatever.

What are you getting at?

What I find more interesting is that the creator is able to sell SW characters. How does that work? Can't imagine Disney selling licences for that kind of stuff to small indie artists?


GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/09 13:07:38


Post by: Mentlegen324


 BaronIveagh wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Yes, CA have not changed their Policy. A policy that would be dictated by GW as its their brand they're making use of. It's absurd if you think GW wouldn't contact CA and tell them modding wasn't allowed if that was what was going on here, but would instead just go straight for the modders.


Not necessarily. Remember that GW and Relic clashed over the same issue, and GW's solution was to go after the modders directly then, followed by demanding the removal of mod support in the following games.


You'll have to be more specific with this, not sure what you're referring to.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
You're right, we don't know, that's the point! No one else has come forward and said anything like this has happened other than the 2 involved here, therefore there's no reason to think they've gone after anyone else.


Because we've been here before. For every recipient of a GW C&D that comes forward and raises a stink, four or five quietly vanish.


That means you're judging this situation on baseless assumptions, not evaluating it based on what has actually occurred.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Uhh...what? What are you even trying to say here? A workshop page is implemented as part of a game by the developers, the whole reason for it being there is for users to upload mods. How can that be anything other than the developers officially supporting mods?


That's not universally true. Not only are there games which implemented mod support differently, but also ones that have never 'officially' implemented mod support that have Workshop pages. While this is more common in older titles, it's not actually unknown.


The purpose of workshop pages is, according to the steam page itself:

Ever dreamed of seeing your brilliant ideas come to life in games played by millions of people? Now you can, with the Steam Workshop. Here you can submit, find, rate, and download new content and modifications for your favorite Steam games.


Steam workshop pages are for users to upload mods and similar content like maps.

The point of the Total War: Warhammer worskhop page (and other CA games pages), according it it's own guidelines, is mods:

https://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Content_Creators#Creating_Mods_for_Total_War_-_Where_to_Start

Similar situation for Gladius: https://www.slitherine.com/gladius-modding

Dawn of War 3's workshop pages guide is a link to their modding wiki page.

It's baffling that you're trying to claim that these workshop pages aren't the developers officially allowing and supporting players making mods for their games.

You'll have to give some examples of games that "never 'officially' implemented mod support that have Workshop pages".

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Same point as the other one. We don't know, therefore you should believe that they haven't until evidence suggests otherwise.


Except, knowing GW, it's a fairly safe bet that it is true. You guys keep arguing that we should give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume it's the players that are lying, but frankly, given GW's history, why in God's name would anyone do that? That's like willingly joining Jack the Ripper for a night on the town, and insulting your friends when they say 'you might not want to trust this guy'.


Who's said the players are lying? That's not what is being said at all. It's your claim that this situation means they're going after modding and trying to stop modding - neither of which what has happened has suggested in any way - that's being contested.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
No, they aren't.

One is making games and apps without a license given to the user in any way and without any sort of official action taken to enable that

The other is making mods using the provisions given by the developer as part of their game. It is within the purview of that game and has been sanctioned by the developer.


For legal purposes, there is no difference between those two things. Most mods are not actually sanctioned by the devs. There's no 'license' that changes hands. The only thing is that the devs, or whoever the rights holder is, have the option to pursue a copyright claim against the mod or not. Several mod authors have found themselves high and dry because of this in the past, when the Devs changed their minds suddenly. At the moment, all modding exists in a legal gray area, whether you take money for it or not.


The content of the mods themselves not being sanctioned is not the same as the ability to make mods being sanctioned by the devs.

Again, you'll have to give some examples of devs changing their minds suddenly, because I expect there's more to those situations than you make it seem.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Ignoring or misrepresenting the facts of a situation to try and fit a "GW Evil" narrative doesn't make that the case.


Ignoring or misrepresenting the facts of a situation to try and fit a "GW Good, Victims Evil!" narrative doesn't make that the case either.


Go on then, just what have I misrepresented? I'm not the one trying to say that in a situation where GW have asked someone to stop using their brand to advertise their patreon, that that then means they're trying to stop mods altogether.




GW now appears to be going after game modders @ 2021/08/09 14:46:30


Post by: Sarouan


Just let this thread die, it has no meaning anymore since there are no more news about the modders so far.