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Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/07 23:22:18


Post by: BoomWolf


THIS IS AN INCOMPLETE PLACEHOLDER AND WILL BE FILLED UP IN TIME

So, with the new codex being basically out, its time for a new topic!

The new codex is....Interesting to say the least.
Lacking in raw datasheet power, but the sheer utility and options (especially mid-game options) are staggering compared to other codices of the same scale. somehow even with our tiny model range it feels extremely diverse.

All raitings are my opinion at the time of writing and may subject to change with games under my belt, other people's convincing arguments, and/or any tournament results. last update 8/8/21. going by a colored scale of
S-practically must have, the "this is getting a nerf next CA" section
A-strong choice that needs practically no support beyond what it itself provides (wanted blue, but hard to read)
B -good enough choice that can work well with a bit of thought, effort and/or investment
C-situational choices that require either some dedication to work well, or are mostly useful as counter picks to specific metas
D-avoid, things that are either completely outclassed by others of the same category, or are outright traps

Unit Analysis
Spoiler:

HQ
Ahriman S+
The most exalted of sorcerers is back, and better than ever. for a minimal point increase his casting power is VASTLY improved, now with full rerolls to his casts replacing him +1 to cast, but the +1 to cast gain back from the army rules.
There isn't much to say, he's simply the psyker supreme. honestly I find it had to envision a list without him.

Thousand Sons Daemon Prince A
Now with the DG weapon changes, he's slightly improved, but losing warptime (the replacement cant target him) make the fast-moving beatstick less fast moving. limiting us to only one per detachment also prevents going for redundancy. still, if you need a big, beefy, beatstick HQ, he's your go-to.
Just remember, his psyker powers are added cream on top, not the selling point. if you plan to sit behind a wall of troops all day, perhaps a cheap exalted would be better. Im my personal tastes, even if just keeping him for "just in case someone assault my lines and I need a counter-offensive" is enough to justify the extra cost though. and the mere option to take the offensive is never bad.
Still a strong pick and can compete both in codex and outside of it, but perhaps not as good as he used to be, both with the loss of speed options, and the added competition.

Infernal Master B
The new boy on the block.
Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about him. he seems pretty good, and the infernal pacts have some interesting options, remains to be seen how good they are.
I'm ranking him B because he has some unique abilities that cant really be gotten elsewhere, so at the very least he opens up options.

Exalted Sorcerer B
The budget version of princes. honestly I'm slightly let down. you need to invest a lot of points and relics/traits to get them close to as good as ahriman or a prince, losing the whole budget aspect. if you take one, you probably want to keep him cheap.
Some people seem to disagree so I'll explain.
The exalted is not bad at all. the statline is solid, the casting is good for the price, the aura is useful-but he lacks any speciality. anything an exalted does, so does the prince/ahriman, and often better.
At a bare-bones state, he provides cheap enough casting, with a decent body and a nice aura in an affordable budget, but as you keep investing in him you gotta ask "why didn't I just take a prince or Ahriman?". if you already took both, maybe that's your answer. and sure you can CP into having relics and extra traits to bring him up to par, but at that point would you not rather invest the CP in another detachment for another prince? (and possibly a more flexible chart)

Sorcerer C
The budget version of the budget prince. except not very much a budget, and you lose a LOT of stats on the way. honestly if you don't have a plan with Witch-Warrior or Loyal Thrall command upgrades, avoid them. upgrading to exalted is too cheap, and if you run out of HQ slots its probably better to dish out the CP for extra detachment instead. battle-psyker is a massive trap.

Sorcerer in Terminator Armor D
Takes the problem of the sorcerer, and dials it up. you just pay way too much for what it gives. stick to ahriman, prince, occasional exalted or infernal, just stay away from the termisor.


Troops
Thousand Sons Cultists D
They are not cheap, not durable, got practically no support anywhere in the codex, and furfil no goal, not even cheap objective sitters as they are not even objective secured. just pretend these don't exist.

Tzaangors C
The goatmen.
Now restricted in numbers, so you cant go for overwhelming wound count, and their support is not nearly as good as it used to be with the loss of the double attack stratagem, they are not nearly as valuable at putting pressure.
Being cheaper though, they make possible objective holders, and part of the reason why cultists are so bad. just 2 points more for +1T, invul 5, better CC stats, better support still, and objective secured makes them just do everything a cultist does better.
With investment in stratagems, shaman babysitters and such they might even do some work, but I doubt they'll achieve enough to justify the effort most times.
Still, they have their uses, so maybe don't hurry to send them to the furnace.

Rubrics Marines B
These guys got a lot of love this codex.
The new and improved spell list and regular smites make the aspirant more of an asset, the improved soulreaper in minimal squads allows backfield objective squads to contribute more to the midfield, the expected extra wound means small arms truly are a non-factor for them now, and they also support the cabal rituals quite well. overall, they won't carry you to victory, but they are a very solid core and taking 3 squads is no regret. taking 6 is probably excessive though.
The warpflamer squad got new life in it too. basically not any more expensive, but with extra movement and extra gun range, the threat range is greatly improved. not to mention they are in range for deepstrike barbeque now, can overwatch even the longest charger and the new spell that grants them +1S is great especially when the unit itself can cast it. overall a lot of potential, and it means there are basically two flavors of rubric teams now. (3 if you think hybrid is viable, but I think one way or another is the path)
The Ardent Automata command upgrade opens up some interesting new options for secondary missions
Honestly, I think B ranking might be underestimating them.


Elites
Helbrute A
While on the surface they don't seem to gain much, and the lack of psyker dreadnaught hurt our dark souls, the thousand sons helbrute is stealthily perhaps the best dreadnaut out there right now.
Adding up the known dreadnaught upgrades of -1 damage is nice, and the frenzy replacing crazed is much, much better. the loss of movement speed is sad, but not enough to reduce his amazing value.
The new 5++, when coupled with the -1 damage rule makes him extremely tough. that's the selling point. we've seen how the two rules mesh together on DG nasties, and its great. he's also still also a great source of much needed anti-tank, and in the many slotted elite section.
March the thousand sons helbrutes!

Scarab Occult Terminators A
Two heavy hitters in a row here!
The heavy dust boys got themselves a LOT of upgrades in this codex.
Much bigger psyker list to choose from, and real smites? check.
Double the CC power and improved dakka on the heavies? check.
Extra wound? check.
Less slow? check.
OBJECTIVE SECURED? hell yea!
price increase? basically none.
These boys are going to be workhorses. they will go to objectives and cut down the defenders without too much hassle and don't have to worry about a straggler holding the objective, all the while gunning down other guys on their way there. they are also a great target for any and all buffs. basically, if you don't have scarabs in your list, you gotta ask yourself why.

Tzaangor Shaman

The tzaangor support character suffers from the fact tzaangors are not really worth the investment to support. using him as an extra character just for actions lost value with the command upgrades, the extra spellcasting lost value with rubrics and scarabs being both better casters, and better in general pushing the tzaangors further out.
He just falls behind, the parts he used to play either no longer needed or better done by others.

Fast Attack
Tzzangor Enlightened D
The flying goatmen seem to fail to fly.
Not any cheaper, not any stronger, and they were already questionable-now even more so.
They are not tough for their price, and don't hit hard either. so the mobility is wasted on a unit that can get there, but not do much once it does.
The bow change is cute, giving chaos it's first real snipers, but honestly the damage output is just too low, and not much can be expected of them. it takes two full squads to take down a sororitas support character, and even that's a bit of a gamble. its just not good enough.
The utter lack of support available is not improving things.

Chaos Spawn B
The cheap unmentionables are back, with few changes making them a bit more reliable, but not harder hitting.
They are still cheap, they still punch harder than you'd expect for the price, and they still die the moment someone actually pays attention to them (hopefully after being on the receiving end of a fated mutation)
They can help put some pressure, but honestly with all the improvements in the codex they will probably struggle to keep up. and that's a shame because they were a real crutch in the last codex. goes to show how much things improved I guess.
Still, if you find yourself wanting a few more CC threats, just enjoy the change flavor, or just in it for the memes-you won't lose any sleep over including a few spawn in your list. at least not more than appropriate considering their looks.


Heavy Support


Flyer
HeldrakeC
The turky is back in the sky!
Honestly, he's basically an aircraft counter. he won't achive much when there are no aircraft on the enemy field, but when there are, he will absolutely mulch them.
This is basically the staple counter pick. if your meta is dominated by aircraft, the heldrake is your best friend, but as long as its not, he's probably better staying home.


Dedicated Transports

Rhino A

Yes. the rhino is THAT good.
For the price of 4 rubrics, you get a rhino equipped with 2 inferno combi bolters (so, shooting like said 4 rubrics, except always getting full 8 shots at 24" even on the move), being a big ass metal box to block for LoS blocking and hiding sorcerers, can ferry around your other rubrics at the speeds they dream of, and it packs a 5+ invul save.
A 5+ invul on a sub-100 transport, that has decent guns. we all know just how infuriating the 6+ invul the sisters has is, and we got 5+.
Rhinos are the new meta boys, as awkward as it sounds.

Lord of War
Magnus The Red




Trickery-warlord traits, relics, stratagems, cabal ritual and great cults
Spoiler:

Warlord Traits
Arrogance of Eons[C
Useful when you are facing psykers, but that's pretty much it.

Seeker After ShadowsB[
Replacing High Magistar is a tough order, and this doesn't cut it. still, rerolling psychic actions, with a dedicated action caster-it gets points, and points wins games. not for your actual warlord, but your third caster can enjoy it.

Undying FormB[
Was useful, stayed useful. gets better the bigger you are, so Magnus really enjoys his, and a prince wouldn't mind either-but that's it.

Lord of Forbidden LoreD[
If you are not Magnus, you don't want it. he has it though.

Otherwordly PrescienceB[
Was amazing, and got nerfed to oblivion. that said, there usually will only be one or two rounds in a game where you need that 3++, so its still pretty useful.

AetherstrideD[
Gets you faster and gives a bit of mobility abilities, but...not enough to matter.


Relics
Seer's Bane C
A force sword with -4 ap that turns into a massive beatstick against psykers? I guess its useful in a psyker dominated meta, but not elsewhere.

Umbralefic Crystal A
Rebranded Fark Matter Crystal. mobility is always good, and this give it. soild pick in every list.

Helm of the Daemon's Eye S
Helm of the Third Eye rebrand, in S tier?
I mean, its good, but just a CP generator, not worth investing in, right? WRONG.
Its cheaper than every to pack extra relics, so the only reason to ever not take it, is if you have too many other relics you need for your strategy and there is simply no room left.
Even if it triggers once, and it most likely will, it paid for itself. and you can usually expect around 3 triggers per match.

Coruscator B
Relic pistol, moving on.
Wait, B?
Yes. B. because you can put it on an aspiring sorcerer for 1 CP, it does not seem to count against your relic limit, and for them its a decent upgrade you may want to consider.
Bonus range, triple shots and double damage. not bad for a pistol upgrade for a random mook.

Athenaean Scrolls A
Talk about zero to hero! these used to be utterly useless, but now, if you got a specific spell your strategy relies on-you can practically guarantee it! the fact you choose only during the game also lets it be used to supercharge a specific silver bullet spell for that odd matchup when one spell is absolutely mandatory. this is basically great. might even be S tier material, time will tell.

Thryddeghyre C
Our third names character is hidden in the relic section!
Jokes aside, its...meh. it lets you weave in and out of combat in colorful ways, and the any direction 6' consolidation will at some cases lets you do some funky moves, but honestly its more meme than substance. perhaps can get some interesting tactical options when combined with scheming's warlord trait.

Egleighen's OrreryC
A counter pick when you need your core units to take care of some modifier stacker. no, tanshuman doesn't count. so yea, great when you need it, but sometimes utterly useless.

The Chronos Tutorum B
Its a relic. that gives an extra warlord trait.
Needlessly convoluted is tzeentchy, but this is better than might appear on a glance. you pick that new trait in-game, meaning you can use it for counterpicks if needed, and even if not, we got some solid traits in our bag, some even combo well. solid choice.

Skaeloch's Talon D
No. just no. Sx2 D2d3 might seem good, but not on AP0. not even on an aspirant.

Conninving Plate S
A prince with this?
Jump into a whole pack of enemies uncaring. cut in half the attacks of that super beatstick and proceed to taken him down. this is insane. this is surely getting FAQed, because RAW this is just absurd. its better reducing damage to half.

Warpweave Mantle B
Trolltastic in a way only tzeentch can be, punishing the enemy for rolling high is just so rage inducing. still, its basically a meme. and the better casting while injured part isn't that great as casters don't exactly have a big health pool buffer. not great, but not terrible.

Paradoxical ChatterfowlC
Continuing with the troll picks. honestly, this is a meme. its janky, funny, and can be used to utterly infuriate enemy psyker beatsticks, but we probably don't want to be anywhere near them anyway, and it does practiclly nothing against rank-and-file beatsticks

The Change-Wrought Chalice C
Smarter shaman is still, a shaman. if you got a good use for a shaman in your list, perhaps giving him access to more spells has value to you-but i doubt it.

Incadaeum B
Its a force staff that is also an upgreaded warpflamer. much like the Coruscator, the biggest value comes from the fact you can plop it on an aspirant.

Pentakairic Armor B
The Infernal Master unique relic. knowing an extra pact aint much, you already know two and only get to use one, though several are utility in nature so maybe? That said, totally blocking the first wound each turn is pretty darn useful.
If you got an Infenral Master in your ranks, you might want this. if he leads your combat patrol, you defiantly want this.

The Prism of Echos C
This one honestly confound me.
On the one hand, it single-handedly opens up a backfield support psyker as an option. on the other hand, must of our units that wants a blessing will either cast it themselves, or is a big unit that you want a nearly exalted/prince to buff them anyway. so what's the point?
I could be totally wrong here, but this just seems somehow while great, still completely pointless.

The Stave Abominus D
So, a force stave, but instead of D3 damage, you get double the attacks.
The only reason you'd ever want this is for a cult of mutation combo attempt, and I don't see the effort pay off.


Psyker Powers
Change
Tzeentch Firestorm A
Oh my, this has VASTLY improved sience last time we saw it. kower warp charge makes it easier to cast AND an added "overcharge" mode that basically doubles damage at a low bar of 9 (basically 8) makes this a very tasty focused witchfire. with the new ritual system, getting it's high cast, or slapping extra damage if needed makes characther assassination easier than ever. extremely solid.

Glamour of Tzeenth A
Its back, it's easier to cast, and it provides much valued protection to your centerpiece unit of choice, be it a scarab bomb, Magnus, supercharged prince, a sicarian or anything else. great pick every day.

Doombolt A
Well, this is basically a whole other spell. still, flat 3 MW on a cast of 6 (5) is great. cant go wrong with this.

Temporal Manipulation B
Well, this is nerfed in targeting by forbiding vehciles, yet buffed with a much easier cast. good for sustaining your Magnus, Ahriman or a prince, but little else. techincally a vortex beast, but I'm not sure they are worth healing.

Weaver of Fates C
Yes, a mere C grade for weaver of fates. basically, unless you got a big ticket item that's worth investing the hell into giving any tiny defensive buff, or a good unit that has no ivul at all (like a 5 spawn squad), it won't do much at the end result-rendering it rather situational.

Baleful DevolutionC
This one is a doosy. the fact you cant even try on units less than 6 models means that sometimes, its a total dud. its not easy to cast either, and the expected damage isn't great. magnus can make use of it with his high expected cast values, but anyone else probably should avoid.

Cacodeamonic Curse C
Honestly, i struggle to see this being relevant often. -first you need an enemy shooting unit that is seriusly effected by the debuff, than you need to get in close-and if you are that close, isn't going for the kill better?

Pyric Flux C
As situational as it gets. if you got a warpflamer rubric squad, they have to have it-anybody else never wants it.

TPreplex C
This preplexes me as well. how often is limiting enemy range going to matter, when you need to get in range to do this to begin with? 24" is not much of a limit given table size these days too. the situations where this helps are going to be few and far between.

Vengence
Gaze of Hate C
A targeted smite, easy enough to cast, but rather unreliable. the fact you can whiff doing any damage means you might not be able to use the ritual for bonus damage either. most of the time, a regular smite will do better.

Twist of FateC
This is only C because at some matchups it will be liturally useless. and honestly in many cases the invul save will not be any better than the armor save with AP2. so just keep it off the list and swap it in when it becomes relevant.

Dark Blessing D
This is too much of a gamble to be trusted to any capacity. you need to be extremely close, and then beat a 50% roll AT BEST or it does nothing at all. against marines, or anyhting even tougher, its absolutly useless. against squisher charcters, do you even need it when you are this clsoe?

PresageB
Presicence got quite a bit worse with other changes to our codex (spesifically infernal fulside and the loss of 20 rubric squads) giving it less great targets, but its still going to be desireable in all but the most MSU lists, and probably even there.

Swelled by the Warp C
If you got a CC HQ, he has it. basically only a prince or a really buffed exalted though. (I guess ahriman could at times benefir from it?) not very intresting in a codex not geared for melee smashing.

Temporal Surge A
Got really hurt by the new targeting limitations, but still a solid spell to improve mobility-and that's always an important thing. also, can do some funny things with a loyal thrall sorcerer on disk just doing the ritual secondary and running into cover every turn.

Empyric Guildance D
I really can't think of nearly any situation where this will be relevant as a spell, and in the once-in-a-lifetime it is, switch for it.

Spychic Stalk D
No. just no. so random, and low chance, for just killing a single non-monster, non-vechile, non-characther model? the expected value is just negligble compared to a simple smite.

Desecration of WorldsB
This will really ruing the day for any combat unit that relies on mobility, and has either a high model count, and/or a low wound per model count. repentia will kill themselves (how fitting), so will deamonettes, varius clown units, boys, etc. just don't target the sitting shooty marine unit.



Cults of the Legion
Mutation

Priohecy

Time

Schemeing

Magic

Knowledge

Change

Duplicity

Manipulation



Rituals


Stratagems


Secondary Objectives
Mutate Landscape (warpcraft) A
This is a wonderful mission.
Even if there are only 4 objectives on the board, this is a great outlet for a non-busy psyker (out of range for example) to preform an action, and can be fron-loaded on turn 1 on any objectives in your own line.
In missions with 6 objectives, especially with 2 on your deployment this is extremely easy to score well, it can allow T1 snipes on center field objectives with risen rubricae, stealing with duplicity/gem jumps, etc. the fact you only need a psyker to touch the objectives and not even control it makes it rather easy to score.
Compared to warp ritual, this has a higher cap, and can be done by squad psykers rather than just characters, plus its not just center field, but all over the map-making it much harder to block your approach (because being everywhere is harder than just pushing the center)
Compared to pierce the veil, you dont need to protect a specific caster while he does it over and over.
Compared to interrogation, you are not dependent on keeping close range to enemy characterss while keeping both your psyker and his characthers alive.
The difficulty may increase with each cast-but nothing stops us from spamming attempts.

Burn Emires (shadow operations) D
From riches to rags. this is plain aweful.
Extremely easy to counter (they just need to walk next to it), and can only be done in hostile territory/no-mans land. the only way you score this, is by crushing your opponent so hard the secondaries hardly matter.
I just cant see a scenario where this is worth taking.

Wrath of Magnus (no mercy, no respite) C
Basically free 15 points if the enemy has one or two psykers in his army, but against another psyker army this is a gamble.
So situational, but when the situation comes-its great. too bad it competes with Grind Them Down, who is often a good secondary for us too, plus no prisoners that really takes a beating on hordes.

TSorcereuos Prowess (purge the enemy) C
Yet another situational pick. its rather easy points agaisnt your fellow sons, or GK, and perhaps tyrnids-but basically pointless against anyone else.
Another issue is that it competes for slot with Assassination and Bring it down, two very good secondaries.




Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/07 23:41:37


Post by: COLD CASH


Looking good!!


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 00:03:26


Post by: Arachnofiend


Definitely looking forward to trying a very mechanized list, Rubrics in Rhinos and daemon engines being the core. May actually have a shot at overwhelming AV shooting.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 00:47:23


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


Let's pour one out for the bird boys. At least they are still better then cultists.

Let us also say goodbye to the old Mutalith. You weren't that good but you were fun. Let's see if the new MW galore version is good enough to compensate !

I'm also a bit confused about the Tzaangor Enlightened: seems like their battlefield role will change a lot. But the 2+ auto hits on the bows looks good at least !
The rest looks really fun ! Seems like the incentive will be to fill out the HQ slots as much as possible to use our powers and cabal points as much as possible !

The new Hellbrutes also look nice ! I just wonder if our frontline won't be a bit more fragile now that Tzaangors took a hit.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 00:51:53


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Arachnofiend wrote:
Definitely looking forward to trying a very mechanized list, Rubrics in Rhinos and daemon engines being the core. May actually have a shot at overwhelming AV shooting.


Yeah, it looks like they are the best Rhinos in the game right now! Its odd that despite not being known as a vehicle specialised army, the fact that Tsons now get army wide 5++, including on their vehicles may make them now a vehicle specialised army...

The Occult terminators are great! They shoot and fight better than blightlords, and with one psychic and one strategem, you can make one squad as tanky as blightlords, and all for the same cost. Plus they are obsec and immune to morale. They are so good now.

The psychic phase of a Tsons army is scary now. Really scary. The offensive ranged firepower of a Tsons army when you include the psychic phase is considerable, far better than Deathguard.

Oddly enough, I think the rubrics are fine. People keep on comparing them to plague marines but the issue with plague marines was that they didn't have an invul save and their ranged firepower was meh for their points. This is very different from the Rubrics. Even a basic squad of Rubrics have much better ranged firepower than plague marines, plus it comes with 5++ invul stock. Plus they are immune to morale. Plus they come with a psyker standard. Also, their defense is best against small arms fire, and that is exactly what people would fire into Rubrics. I would argue Rubrics are far better as a troop unit than plague marines.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 01:03:26


Post by: xeen


I agree with all of your initial statements so far. I think Rhinos are going to be very undervalued at first, but people will see what adding 5++ does. I mean look at the raider. It has proven very survivable with that 5++, and it is T6 4+ where the Rhino is better at T7 and 3+. I mean I am not saying the Rhino is as good (no dark lance, no open top etc.) but I think it will be as survivable. Then you can put a 70 point cheap Tgor unit it in it, drive it up and when it pops out comes those guys to still be on an objective.

I also love the hellbrute with the 5++ for the same reason, they are just going to last longer. I luckily have two of the old Forgeworld Thousand Sons Dreadnoughts, so I am stoked.

I think Minimum squads for both Rubrics and SoT are the way to go. That way the -1 damage Strat is only one CP, and without the double tap strat, there is no need for big units of inferno bolters. I know that buffs usually want one really good target, but I really don't think 10 Rubrics or SoT is the type of hammer unit that putting several buffs make it worthwhile. We have so many buffs that I think putting several buffs spread out among many different min size units making them all like 30% harder to kill, is better than super buffing one of our units making it like 70% harder to kill. Also with cabal points and casting, you want those extra sorcerers.

I love how we can put a Sorceror in Terminator armor as not counting toward HQ with a Exalted. It effectively lets us take one more HQ (I envision Exalted, Term Sor, DP, and Infernal Master) This makes it hard for me to find a place for a Shaman (take a Sor/term sor instead for not much more points), unless using lots of Tgor, which honestly why.

The negatives are again, I don't see much of a use for a shaman as I would rather pay some more points for a Sor/term sor and at some point you can't just keep adding characters. The Enlightened with bows I don't think are going to be nearly worth the points. The sniper angle is interesting, but without D2 on the bows, they are not really going the threaten many characters, and they are still as fragile as before so probably aren't going to get more than one round of shooting before they are cut down. The CC Enlightened might be good, maybe 6 with a shaman as a small shock unit, but doubtful as they are still pretty fragile.

Magnus has great casting rules etc. To bad he is even more likely to be shot off the board if not turn 1, then definitely turn 2. I understand that GW doesn't want the 3++ saves that really became a problem as far back as late 5th edition. However, if one unit in the game was going to have it, it would be Magnus. With keeping him T7 and his inability to hide anywhere, I don't think he is going to survive to get to use those awesome casting powers. I hope I am wrong, but I don't see him being good.

Overall I love the Dex though. I think it will be fun to use, but not oppressive like DE or Admec. Maybe on par with DG, SM and maybe sisters.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 01:21:47


Post by: Daedalus81


The Unkillable Exalted Sorcerer?


Dilettante ( extra relic )

Chronos Tutorum ( Extra Trait )
Conniving Plate ( 2+ save, no more than half a model's attacks can be allocated to bearer )

Undying ( -1D )
Beguiling Influence ( no rerolls vs WARLORD )

Glamour ( -1 to be hit )
Temporal ( heal D3 )

If a full squad of VV could melee him he'd lose...1.7 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Definitely looking forward to trying a very mechanized list, Rubrics in Rhinos and daemon engines being the core. May actually have a shot at overwhelming AV shooting.


My vindicators are going to crush. 2+/5++ all day.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 01:26:04


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I think Magnus was rebalanced as a more psychic daemon primarch and that makes sense as he is the strongest psyker daemon primarch. There was no way he could be made tankier than Mortarion, it just wouldn't make sense. So, he is more fragile, but he wants to stay back and keep on casting devastating spells anyway.

Considering how you can build a very shooty (including psykic) Tsons list. Its quite possible you can go for threat saturation with some shooty vehicles and Magnus. If you get turn 1 first turn, and you eliminate or cripple opponent anti tank, they may have nothing that can take out Magnus with shooting for the rest of the game.

And even if you go second, opponent has to decide whether to shoot Magnus or your other shooty vehicles. Its not an easy choice to make.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
The Unkillable Exalted Sorcerer?


Dilettante ( extra relic )

Chronos Tutorum ( Extra Trait )
Conniving Plate ( 2+ save, no more than half a model's attacks can be allocated to bearer )

Undying ( -1D )
Beguiling Influence ( no rerolls vs WARLORD )

Glamour ( -1 to be hit )
Temporal ( heal D3 )

If a full squad of VV could melee him he'd lose...1.7 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Definitely looking forward to trying a very mechanized list, Rubrics in Rhinos and daemon engines being the core. May actually have a shot at overwhelming AV shooting.


My vindicators are going to crush. 2+/5++ all day.


Nah, not unkillable. One shot of of dark lance that hits and gets through the invul save will probably kill him.

And yes, T8 Vindicators with a 5++ save sounds crazy.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 01:28:28


Post by: BoomWolf


 xeen wrote:
Overall I love the Dex though. I think it will be fun to use, but not oppressive like DE or Admec. Maybe on par with DG, SM and maybe sisters.


No, we are much better than DG and SM, probably better than sisters too.
We are just a low skill floor and easy to play wrong, and high skill ceiling and hard to really make the most of.

Its a skill intensive codex for sure. many choices to make in-game, much more than any other codex.
Our power comes not from having the strongest tools, but from having so godamn many of them available at all times, unlike SM who have far greater selection tools, but have to choose in advance.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 01:36:30


Post by: Daedalus81


Baleful Devolution is a potential monster spell. WC8, 18", visible, 6 or more models. Roll a D6 based on test result on a 6 do D3 MW.

Magnus should get a 10 or 11, and then spend 9 CP to give another +2 and then go fishing for 6s? His Smite is 2D3 at that level, but this promises to be that on average with a chance for some lucky rolls. Ahriman would probably get a 10 ( rolling a 7 with +1 ).

What are we thinking is a good spell for double cast? Perplex maybe?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:

Nah, not unkillable. One shot of of dark lance that hits and gets through the invul save will probably kill him.


Well, don't just leave him hanging like that! It'd still be a long shot for just one -- 1 * .5 * .833 * .5 = 0.2 so a 20% change to get to the wound step. With 5 wounds and -1D they'd need to roll a 6,so a 1/3 chance there. Overall 7% chance, I think. He'll otherwise hold down just about any unit in melee with little problem it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Our power comes not from having the strongest tools, but from having so godamn many of them available at all times, unlike SM who have far greater selection tools, but have to choose in advance.


This is the big problem. There are so many options now and you tend to want all of them so getting a good focus and plan for the table will be difficult.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 01:44:48


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Baleful Devolution is a potential monster spell. WC8, 18", visible, 6 or more models. Roll a D6 based on test result on a 6 do D3 MW.

Magnus should get a 10 or 11, and then spend 9 CP to give another +2 and then go fishing for 6s? His Smite is 2D3 at that level, but this promises to be that on average with a chance for some lucky rolls. Ahriman would probably get a 10 ( rolling a 7 with +1 ).

What are we thinking is a good spell for double cast? Perplex maybe?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:

Nah, not unkillable. One shot of of dark lance that hits and gets through the invul save will probably kill him.


Well, don't just leave him hanging like that! It'd still be a long shot for just one -- 1 * .5 * .833 * .5 = 0.2 so a 20% change to get to the wound step. With 5 wounds and -1D they'd need to roll a 6,so a 1/3 chance there. Overall 7% chance, I think. He'll otherwise hold down just about any unit in melee with little problem it seems.


Hmm, I thought he only had 4 wounds. Ok, he is better now. Still, the best defense such characters have is to be within 3 inches of other units so they are untargetable in the first place. So, I don't think this makes him game breaking in any way. He isn't someone I would move around solo on the board on his own, and if he is going to be near other units, spending so much effort on his defense seems like kinda a waste, cos we got lots of nice relics and warlords traits now we can choose from.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 01:57:33


Post by: xeen


Think about this. Rubric sorcerer can take the warp time power. No longer need it for DP. Move advance warp time move advance flame away. Probably only time ten rubrics make sense. And that unit has to be dealt with by opponent. Also any charge 1cp flamer over watch.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 01:59:18


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Magnus knows 18 powers omg. There is no way he can't find suitable powers to use during his psychic phase. lol

Hmmm.. Occult terminators fight well, but Rubrics aren't that great in combat. Honestly, I don't think a Tsons army wants to get into combat. It operates best at smite range. Other than hellbrutes and daemon engines like Mauler fiend or defilers, nothing fights that great in Tsons. Ok, maybe Magnus too.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 02:08:00


Post by: Daedalus81


 xeen wrote:
Think about this. Rubric sorcerer can take the warp time power. No longer need it for DP. Move advance warp time move advance flame away. Probably only time ten rubrics make sense. And that unit has to be dealt with by opponent. Also any charge 1cp flamer over watch.


And they only need a 6 with the +1. Hop out of a nice solid transport, go for a little stroll, melt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Magnus knows 18 powers omg. There is no way he can't find suitable powers to use during his psychic phase. lol


Yea, the choice is overwhelming. I am a bit scared to have him without a 3++ though. -1D is nice, but plink is what gets him against AdMech.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmmm.. Occult terminators fight well, but Rubrics aren't that great in combat. Honestly, I don't think a Tsons army wants to get into combat. It operates best at smite range. Other than hellbrutes and daemon engines like Mauler fiend or defilers, nothing fights that great in Tsons. Ok, maybe Magnus too.


Rubrics are better than they were where at least they always have the +1A on and the staff swings at S7 now, which is situationally handy. They die pretty slowly, too, since most melee is D1. Still not the best place to be.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 02:20:25


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Yeah, the thing though is that these days, many armies will have at least one or two dedicated combat units that will try and charge you to ruin your day.

Tsons army will have to look out for close combat specialists.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 02:29:19


Post by: Arachnofiend


Terminators and Daemon Engines are pretty nasty in melee, plus you can use your rhinos to bog stuff down and prevent it from charging your Rubrics. I think we've got plenty of counter-charge, but I do think you should be thinking of it more in terms of counter-charge rather than assault as a main strategy.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 02:32:12


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Arachnofiend wrote:
Terminators and Daemon Engines are pretty nasty in melee, plus you can use your rhinos to bog stuff down and prevent it from charging your Rubrics. I think we've got plenty of counter-charge, but I do think you should be thinking of it more in terms of counter-charge rather than assault as a main strategy.


Yeah. I agree. Tsons is primarily psychic and shooting. The melee it has is more for counter charge. Been watching the battle reports on TTT and Tabletop titans. If people weren't playing Grey knights against Tsons, with grey knights getting that 5+ save aegis, the Tsons mortal wounds output would have been absolutely scary. I was seeing 9 mortal wounds from just one specific psychic power. And Tsons can hurl out a TON of psychic powers, plus add even more damage to their smites too. They have a good chance of casting super smites too.

Any other army without the grey knights Aegis is going to be pummeled with a ton of mortala wounds. I believe the psychic phase of a Tsons army can throw out as much or even more mortal wounds than 3 Decimaters with soul burner petards.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 02:40:12


Post by: yukishiro1


Magnus looks pretty terrible to me, so very squishy for the points, and I'm not sure he even really does all that much, anyway. His psychic frankly isn't as impressive as you'd expect it to be, basically just Ahriman with another additional +1...for almost 300 points more. You're going to spend so many CP reserving him to keep him from getting shot off the table T1, and when he does show up, he doesn't even necessarily do all that much. Not being able to warptime him also hurts a lot for keeping him alive and getting him where he needs to be. Daemon prince loses a lot of power by not being a valid warptime target, too.

I think spawn are low key great, they get by far the best use out of the new weaver and a 5 man unit is 115 points, can still be warptimed, and can now do an average of 35 attacks at S5 AP-2 D2 for 1CP, with the ability to customize that profile for more AP or better wound rolls instead of the 10 extra average attacks. Hitting on 4s sucks, but there are various ways to improve that to a passable 3.

Rules question - if you take a CSM detachment, can you still use the old vets on TS stuff? The detachment unlocks the strat, the strat keys off HA, which TS still have, so I don't see any reason why you couldn't?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 02:47:24


Post by: BoomWolf


Added listing for HQs and relics.
Might be a cause for commotion for some.

Yuki-the spawn didn't change at all, they were exactly the same last codex.
I used them a lot, they are good, but they don't carry a game. too squishy.



As for the melee arguement, I'd say we are better than most people expect.
Between scarabs, helbrutes and spawn-we can pack a decent punch, and our units don't shift quickly, not even the rubrics.





This is going to take a while to fill up my opinions on everything (heck, to digest everything!)
And then I have to start looking at forgeworld, because boy some FW stuff get hectic with a 5++


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 02:53:42


Post by: yukishiro1


The spawn were good in the old codex too, but they did change, in two ways - first, they went to 2d3 attacks instead of 1d6, which is a lot more reliable, and second, as I said, weaver now gives them a 4++, whereas before it gave them a 5++.

The strat also changed a little in that it now gives you +1 attack instead of rerolling the number of attacks. I.e. instead of 1d6 rerolling, you now get 2d3+1 - 3d3+1 if you take the extra attacks option. It's a slightly higher output than before - 7 average vs like 6.5ish before.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 02:54:44


Post by: Daedalus81


yukishiro1 wrote:
Magnus looks pretty terrible to me, so very squishy for the points, and I'm not sure he even really does all that much, anyway. His psychic frankly isn't as impressive as you'd expect it to be, basically just Ahriman with another additional +1...for almost 300 points more. You're going to spend so many CP reserving him to keep him from getting shot off the table T1, and when he does show up, he doesn't even necessarily do all that much. Not being able to warptime him also hurts a lot for keeping him alive and getting him where he needs to be. Daemon prince loses a lot of power by not being a valid warptime target, too.

I think spawn are low key great, they get by far the best use out of the new weaver and a 5 man unit is 115 points, can still be warptimed, and can now do an average of 35 attacks at S5 AP-2 D2 for 1CP, with the ability to customize that profile for more AP or better wound rolls instead of the 10 extra average attacks. Hitting on 4s sucks, but there are various ways to improve that to a passable 3.

Rules question - if you take a CSM detachment, can you still use the old vets on TS stuff? The detachment unlocks the strat, the strat keys off HA, which TS still have, so I don't see any reason why you couldn't?


I suppose you could since they're still heretic. Spending a lot of extra points to save a CP though.

Agree on Spawn. They were close to good last book. With a 4++ it should be a little easier.

Magnus is +2 over Ahriman. +3 for two spells if you double cabal him. He'd be great with Firestorm, Smite, and Baleful. There's less you need to babysit him so he's cheaper in effect...by force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Yuki-the spawn didn't change at all, they were exactly the same last codex.
I used them a lot, they are good, but they don't carry a game. too squishy.


Remember that spawn, as beasts, can walk through walls. You can easily hide them and move them out once 4++ is up.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 02:57:21


Post by: yukishiro1


Well you wouldn't soup just for that, but it is a decent side benefit, plus it means you can vets twice in a phase if you want to on two different things. Not sure that CSM really open up that many great options that it'd be worth it, just something that occurred to me.

A lot of the relics are really, really good, probably the best thing about the book aside from the psychic stuff. That disc that lets you consolidate in any direction 6", fall back and still cast powers, and advance and charge all in one package...phwoar. Too bad you can't give it to a daemon prince.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 02:59:26


Post by: BoomWolf


yukishiro1 wrote:
The spawn were good in the old codex too, but they did change, in two ways - first, they went to 2d3 attacks instead of 1d6, which is a lot more reliable, and second, as I said, weaver now gives them a 4++, whereas before it gave them a 5++.

The strat also changed a little in that it now gives you +1 attack instead of rerolling the number of attacks. I.e. instead of 1d6 rerolling, you now get 2d3+1 - 3d3+1 if you take the extra attacks option. It's a slightly higher output than before - 7 average vs like 6.5ish before.


How on earth did I miss these changes XD
Well, still does not change my opinion of them.
They are good, but not carries.


yukishiro1 wrote:
Well you wouldn't soup just for that, but it is a decent side benefit, plus it means you can vets twice in a phase if you want to on two different things. Not sure that CSM really open up that many great options that it'd be worth it, just something that occurred to me.


Honestly, souping in just a few TS for another chaos army, might still be good. the cabal rituals are only a loss when you get a lot, but if all your soup is like ahrima and a few rubrics? practically nothing is lost.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 03:26:04


Post by: yukishiro1


The soup list also means you could conceivably warptime two things, one CSM with warptime and one TS with the new warptime. Still not sure there's enough there to go on, but there are probably some weird soup lists that might end up working in really odd ways.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 03:42:10


Post by: Sasori


Pretty Happy with the dex. There seems to be a ton of Depth and combos tho throw around.

Gotta Disagree with your rating of an Exalted at B.. They are an A for sure as you can kit them out in a ton of ways and load them up for blasting tons of mortal wounds or whatever you really need. In my opinion, they are better than Princes right now. They also unlock the sorcerers/Termie sorcerers no slot as well.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 03:45:32


Post by: Daedalus81


 Sasori wrote:
They also unlock the sorcerers/Termie sorcerers no slot as well.


This is my favorite part about exalteds.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 03:48:43


Post by: BoomWolf


Sure, you CAN kit the exalted
But it costs. and as the costs go up, they need to compete with the bigger, beefier and beatier prince.
And unlocking extra slots for sorcerers and termisors is of no value, when these two datasheets are of little to no value themselves.

I just can't see an exalted beyond bare bones 100 pointer being a good choice. you get the casting and aura. you need more? get more dudes.

I rank the exalted at B because he's useful, but he's never your first pick, and likely not your second either. he's third or even forth down the line of HQs.
His unique value is the aura, that ahriman (the must have) also has, and so does princes (who are basically exalted on steroids)
We do not lack in casting spells, so his 2 spells are not a highlight. the cabal points are great, but we get them elsewhere too, so again not a highlight.

He's a decent package that gets several things and provide a decent effect. enough to rate as good, not enough to rate as top tier.

The Infernal Master ranks just as high because while he has an inferior statline, less casts, less cabal, and no aura-he has some unique abilities that can't be acquired anywhere else in the codex. there is a reason to say "I need specifically the Infernal Master"
So he's overall weaker, but in the grand scheme slightly more valuable to the codex.

Time can prove me wrong, but until I see some actual results of an exalted beefed up ending up relevant, I'd stick to my current belief


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 04:21:56


Post by: Daedalus81


 BoomWolf wrote:
Sure, you CAN kit the exalted
But it costs. and as the costs go up, they need to compete with the bigger, beefier and beatier prince.
And unlocking extra slots for sorcerers and termisors is of no value, when these two datasheets are of little to no value themselves.

I just can't see an exalted beyond bare bones 100 pointer being a good choice. you get the casting and aura. you need more? get more dudes.


Time can prove me wrong, but until I see some actual results of an exalted beefed up ending up relevant, I'd stick to my current belief


DP is a bit over valued now. He was good when you could use him to pick up gaze and have a nice punch in combat. Talons are +1A max and there's no +1A for first round of combat.
So that's 6 S7 AP1 D2 attacks. Cast two, deny one. 175 with fly.

DPs are so often on their own in combat and they will not blend as easily now. Exalted have nearly comparable melee, the same casting, and a flamer for 40 points cheaper, which you can invest into another sorcerer so an extra 50 to 60 gets you yet another two casts, one deny, and two cabal points.

That way you can go Patrol with Ahriman, Exalted and 2x Sorc in Termie giving you four HQs, one troops req, and then letting you dump into Scarabs and support vehicles.





Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 04:38:47


Post by: BoomWolf


Ahriman does not let you get another sorcerer as he isn't cult.

And I'm pretty sure the claw has no limitation on only giving a single extra attack, you just get an extra attack per claw. compared to the old sheet, the double claw prince only lost 1 attack-and got quite a bit cheaper. dual claw is 25 points cheaper than it used to be (maybe you missed this little tidbit and that's why you think they are overvalued)
And true, no +1 attack on first turn of combat, but the prince also got +1 base attack.

In a rather simplistic comparison, for the 40 points price hike from bare bones exalted to bare bones prince you get +2M, +2T, +3W, and +1Ld on your statline, a bigger base to send out a bigger aura. some would argue that alone is worth the price.
And your melee stats change from 5 attacks at S7 Ap-1 Dd3 to 7 attacks at S7 Ap-2 D2
That's not really all that close. against a marine profile its basically doubles the expected damage output.

Seems to me to be a no-brainer if you are not starving for points.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 04:54:09


Post by: Daedalus81


Right - potentially no Ahriman or one less sorcerer.

Datasheet does not have option for a pair of talons. +1A is all he'll get now. Talons are AP1 as well so quite close to the staff. The toughness and wounds only matter if you really want to get into combat. DP will still be good for that, but he doesn't work magic against some of the units out that that he'll face. Disc and Wings are same speed.

You can see talons stuff here:
https://youtu.be/TKvMVkrW888?t=2298


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 05:06:59


Post by: BoomWolf


Double checked the datasheet

You are indeed correct that talons are no Ap1, I forgot about that part.

But you are mistaken about double talon not being a thing. you start with talon and sword, and can switch out sword for another talon.

So running the numbers again.
Still about a 40% difference.
Not quite as high as it would have been with AP2, but still notable.
(edit: why did I bother running any numbers? 40% increase in attacks of same S, same AP and basically same D is obviously 40% increase in output)



As for the T and W only mattering if you try to get into CC, I'll have to disagree on that point with you.
People shoot my psykers sooner or later. not being as easy to gun down once the front line starts falling is by itself a virtue.
And heck, even if I don't try to get into cc, the enemy might.

And yes, disk and wings is the same speed, but I am not totally sold on either one right now.
They are good upgrades, but a tad pricy in my eyes, and it usually one of the first things I cut down when its time to trim the list.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 05:15:24


Post by: Daedalus81


Fair enough on the talons.

The last bits that are food for thought -

- No legion command upgrades for DP
- Athenean scrolls are Exalted only




Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 05:19:25


Post by: yukishiro1


The Exalted Sorc actually has potential to give Ahriman a run for his money I think. For 150 points and your warlord trait you get an Exalted Sorc on disc with 3 casts that rolls 3d6 and picks two, which for psychic tests is actually arguably better than rerolling most of the time. 30 points less than Ahriman, for which you lose two denies, 1 wound, and go from 3 damage to d3 on your weapon. ES knows one less power, but it also knows its cult power, so that kinda comes out in the wash.

Also way more flexible in terms of ability to take other relics, warlord traits, even go down to 2 casts and go for a second relic, etc. It can take that sweet disc relic that lets you consolidate 6" in any direction, advance and charge, and even fall back and still cast powers if you somehow do manage to get stuck in combat.

I think they actually managed to get this one right, there are reasons why you'd want each over the other, and why you'd want one of each.

edit: Oh blah nevermind, that warlord trait only lets you roll 3d6 for psychic actions, not tests. Go go reading comprehension. That makes the ES substantially less attractive as competition to Ahriman for a reliable psychic power battery. So yeah, I guess you're still going to want Ahriman in 100% of lists; the ES is still good, but can't really replace what he does.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 05:29:11


Post by: Sasori


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Right - potentially no Ahriman or one less sorcerer.

Datasheet does not have option for a pair of talons. +1A is all he'll get now. Talons are AP1 as well so quite close to the staff. The toughness and wounds only matter if you really want to get into combat. DP will still be good for that, but he doesn't work magic against some of the units out that that he'll face. Disc and Wings are same speed.

You can see talons stuff here:
https://youtu.be/TKvMVkrW888?t=2298


You can replace the sword with a Talon for 2x Talons, since comes with one base.

That being said, if you are using a DP for just an aura and slightly better stats, it's a huge waste. You're way better off with an exalted that can be designed just to be buff bot. A good example is a Dilentee Exalted with the Orrey + helm, to sit back with two Volkite contemptors. You now have some serious firepower as well as still being able to cast his spells. Or I can make a mini-Ahriman with Rehati to go around. Aetherstride + the Relic Disc + A Prosperine khopesh allows you to do some cool tricks. Go up and psychic, shoot charge and then consolidate away before they can swing back, then repeat it all over again.

The only reason I would consider taking a DP over an exalted is to kit it out for serous melee. If you take the Sword, Connving Plate, -1 Damage WLT, Wings, and Warp Swell + heal, he is really good in combat, but I'm not yet sure if that is really worth it at this point.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 05:34:54


Post by: Daedalus81


Yea this is my rough cut battalion. 15 cabal points and still 200 points left to spend.

I am not entirely sure I want the IM. Maybe strip cover on Vanguard and -2 Advance/Charge for DE. He could be a Rubric babysitting with +1S and then cast +6". Or risk it and go for S6 flamers.

Spoiler:


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 05:44:10


Post by: yukishiro1


Am I reading this wrong, or is the conniving plate kinda busted RAW, in that it only halves the attacks for a model in engagement range, not for a model w/in .5" of a model w/in .5"? You end up with the weird and perverse results re: your opponent wanting to minimize the amount of models that are actually in engagement range, vs not in engagement range but close to a model in engagement range. Seems weird that that would be intentional...

Still a great relic, especially against characters. But it seems bizarre that by hanging back models can get their full attacks.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 05:44:34


Post by: BoomWolf


Oh hell you can give the prince the armor? I misread that!

That's sheer nasty on him XD


Anyway, at some level I'm happy to see people disagree with me and each coming with his own ideas to how to run exalted.

It means not only that I might be underestimating the exalted and they might be A worthy, but also that the codex really is jam packed of meaningful options, or at least meaningful enough there is no one path that obviously superior on a glance.



The time for listbuilding will have to wait, because I'm still wrecking my time on finishing the summery, and by god there is a lot to go over
And I work so many hours the next few days XD (today included)


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 05:51:12


Post by: yukishiro1


There's a ton of herohammer depth to the book, it's definitely the best part. Tons and tons of interesting relics and the ability to take two on someone just makes it that much more interesting what you can do.

I really like the way they've tweaked the cults too, they feel really balanced now, with most of them arguably good enough to see play. Knowledge looks like the only out-and-out dud to me, and I guess even that might have play for the reroll 1s to wound power, especially since it isn't <CORE> restricted.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 05:54:12


Post by: Daedalus81


yukishiro1 wrote:
Am I reading this wrong, or is the conniving plate kinda busted RAW, in that it only halves the attacks for a model in engagement range, not for a model w/in .5" of a model w/in .5"? You end up with the weird and perverse results re: your opponent wanting to minimize the amount of models that are actually in engagement range, vs not in engagement range but close to a model in engagement range. Seems weird that that would be intentional...

Still a great relic, especially against characters. But it seems bizarre that by hanging back models can get their full attacks.


I think you're reading it wrong. The rule is model by model. So any model allocating to the relic bearer can only do up to half their attacks to him.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Knowledge looks like the only out-and-out dud to me.


Yea that spell is less appealing with the other strength bonuses out there now. Maybe if you really just want to hurt one thing real bad.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 05:58:04


Post by: yukishiro1


 Daedalus81 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Am I reading this wrong, or is the conniving plate kinda busted RAW, in that it only halves the attacks for a model in engagement range, not for a model w/in .5" of a model w/in .5"? You end up with the weird and perverse results re: your opponent wanting to minimize the amount of models that are actually in engagement range, vs not in engagement range but close to a model in engagement range. Seems weird that that would be intentional...

Still a great relic, especially against characters. But it seems bizarre that by hanging back models can get their full attacks.


I think you're reading it wrong. The rule is model by model. So any model allocating to the relic bearer can only do up to half their attacks to him.


Yes, but it only applies to models that are w/in Engagement Range of the model with the relic. A model w/in .5" of another model from its own unit that's w/in .5" of the target is not necessarily w/in Engagement range of the target, so it looks to me like that model can allocate all its attacks to the bearer, as long as it isn't w/in Engagement Range itself. It seems like it should just say "each time a model selects the bearer as a target for its close combat attacks, it can only allocate up to half of its attacks against the bearer" or something like that.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 06:02:38


Post by: BoomWolf


That relic is massivly needing an FAQ XD


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 06:07:49


Post by: Daedalus81


Ah, ok. I follow now. I think it still works well if you don't bury yourself into the middle of the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:
That relic is massivly needing an FAQ XD


It may just be a good check of its power. Otherwise you'd swamp big units.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 06:11:42


Post by: yukishiro1


Guided by the whispers looks like the best warlord trait in the book to me, there are so many weird tricks you can get up to with it now that 9th requires you to declare charges against multiple units and the charge fails if you don't make it into all of them, or if you can't charge without getting into engagement range of a unit you didn't declare. You can position your warlord so that your opponent really has to declare against your warlord plus another unit to charge either, then pop him back 6" to a place where the unit can't possibly succeed the charge against both.

Or even better, if your opponent wants to charge you with two units, you let the first one charge, then when the second one declares, you activate your 6" move, and use their own unit as a screen to make the second charge fail, while at the same time putting your warlord outside of pile in-range. It's going to be a super rare situation where your opponent is going to be able to charge your warlord with more than one unit without ruining it for both. I think it may get a FAQ to say you can only do it if you're not already engaged, it seems crazy powerful to be able to scoot out of a combat you're already in just because someone else charged you. Although maybe you can't do that, because it says you can make a 6" Normal Move, and if you're engagement range you can't make a Normal Move? Depends whether you read the "it can make a Normal Move" as overriding the general prohibition, I guess.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 09:26:46


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Think we have to be careful of over committing to characters. They are good but they need normal units for look out sir as well. Otherwise, once the normal units start to die, it leaves all your characters open to being sniped or charged.

It sounds great to have so many castors, but if we spend 1,000 points on characters, we will only have 1000 points left to spend on other stuff like troops and such.

Has anyone looked at Vindicators? At below 140 points for a T8 Vindicator with a 5++ save with a combi melta and havoc launcher? That sounds rather good. Its 24 inch range, but the Vindicator moves 10 inches anyway.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 09:30:29


Post by: xerxeskingofking


Ok, so, I have a 500 point force, consisting of the start collecting box, and I'm getting the tson half of hexfire. Which will put me at about 900-1000 points.

So, I have

Ahriman on disc
Infernal master
5 Scarabs
1 shaman
10 rubrics
20 tzaangors

So, what do people suggest I do to build this bar up towards 2k? What should be my next investment?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 10:48:56


Post by: xeen


xerxeskingofking wrote:
Ok, so, I have a 500 point force, consisting of the start collecting box, and I'm getting the tson half of hexfire. Which will put me at about 900-1000 points.

So, I have

Ahriman on disc
Infernal master
5 Scarabs
1 shaman
10 rubrics
20 tzaangors

So, what do people suggest I do to build this bar up towards 2k? What should be my next investment?


You are going to want probably 2 more hq castors. Sorcerer (I think arhiman allows it slot free) plus DP or exalted. Then probably 5 more rubrics to make battalion if needed depending on you build of the guys you got. (Think about 10 with flamers warp timing up the field). Then definitely 5 more SoT. They are probably our best unit. After that really preference. There is a case for rhinos hellbrute vindicater. All of which should still be cheap on ebay for now. The daemon engines look much improved as well. Just my thoughts.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 11:50:14


Post by: BoomWolf


Personally I wouldn't hurry to stack on additional HQs
One more prince, maybe. but defiantly not a sorcerer

Beyond that, too early to tell.
Perhaps more rubrics, perhaps scarabs, perhaps tanks.
There are many options and it is yet unclear what is the best.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 12:34:32


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Yeah, its possible to go too heavy on characters. Tsons characters aren't really that great in combat. Not compared to true combat characters like smash chaplains or smash captains.

Over commit on characters, and once your troops that are protecting you are gone, you are in trouble. Rubrics and Occult terminators are great, and fairly tanky, but if you have too few of them, or whatever else you use to provide look out sir for your characters, its going to be a problem.





Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 14:18:38


Post by: Daedalus81


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Has anyone looked at Vindicators? At below 140 points for a T8 Vindicator with a 5++ save with a combi melta and havoc launcher? That sounds rather good. Its 24 inch range, but the Vindicator moves 10 inches anyway.


I used them before with Weaver and they absolutely did lots and took beatings. Now I don't need to babysit them. And they're an awesome looking model.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 14:20:54


Post by: Twilight Pathways


Do we still have a stratagem to swap out a spell for another one? I always found that strat quite important


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/08 14:53:34


Post by: Daedalus81


Twilight Pathways wrote:
Do we still have a stratagem to swap out a spell for another one? I always found that strat quite important


Yes


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 02:02:23


Post by: Arachnofiend


Had an idea for a good way to use a Loyal Thrall Sorcerer: if you run Cult of Duplicity you can warp onto empty objectives and immediately score Mutate Landscape. Duplicity should be fun for scoring in general, you can use it for punishing unprotected Banners too.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 03:20:04


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Arachnofiend wrote:
Had an idea for a good way to use a Loyal Thrall Sorcerer: if you run Cult of Duplicity you can warp onto empty objectives and immediately score Mutate Landscape. Duplicity should be fun for scoring in general, you can use it for punishing unprotected Banners too.


Yup, I do think we have to be careful about the psychic secondaries though. I saw some in play against grey knights matchups on battle reports on youtube and they are not a surefire thing. They can get denied or you just happen to roll badly and fail to have the action go off. I mean, I saw one guy roll a 3 and fail to perform the psychic action, and then next turn he rolled like a 5 , so it went off but was easily denied.

About Duplicity. I was pretty excited about it too. But after looking through the changes and what Tsons have. Most of our units are not meant to get in close combat, and enemy objectives often have troops on them which need to be fought. The best unit to do this would probably be our Occult terminators, which are not bad at fighting too. But the issue is, we only have one such teleport spell. So, warping one unit of our terminators into enemy territory is likely to result in it being focused on and getting destroyed. Even our rubrics are not cheap enough I wouldn't want to sacrifice them to do this. And they may not be fighty enough to take on the opponents on enemy objectives either.

Actually, to be honest, if we like this concept, Grey knights do this much better. I saw some battle reports now. Grey knights strategy now often involves teleporting at least two or maybe even more units into charge range. Grey knights are tanky too, and their close combat is much better. They Want to charge and get into close combat. Also, teleporting in close puts the enemy within range of their smites almost immediately.

If we want to do this, it would be on enemy objectives we are literally already cleared of units so we can teleport directly onto it without a fight. And those wouldn't happen all the time.

Fighting is not really our forte. Our strength is to get into smite range, and with our mid range shooting plus psychic, absolutely blow away our opponent within that range. This also brings me to my next point. We absolutely need our units and especially our psykers to survive till turn 5 if we want to get the best out of them. Our army effectiveness plummets as our psykers die, and as our units that give look out sir get thinned down, they get much more easily sniped off as well. Now, if we can have a really hard to kill bloc in the middle where we cluster all of our psykers, that might work, abit like how DG likes to do it with a big block of blightlords. But our terminators are not as tanky as blightlords by default, not unless we want to spend psychic and CP each round to make them as tanky. Its a possible strategy, but its going to be expensive on a big block of 10 Occult terminators (3cp per round for the -1 damage strategem).

This also brings me to my next point. How to protect our psykers. The best way is to have enough units that stay alive till the end so that they cannot be targeted and they can then keep on blasting smites and spells until turn 5. Outside of grey knights with their aegis, or true horde armies with well over 100 models, I am not sure any other army out there can withstand 5 turns of a Tsons army with all of its psykers inflicting mortal wounds on them. But our psykers have to survive to turn 5, with the freedom to do lots of smites and equivalents to achieve this. So, they need their protection.

Actually, I am thinking of spending less on characters and going heavy on rubrics and Occults. Each rubric or Occult squad has a psyker with a +1 to cast anyway, and Honestly, after the first 3 or 4 smites, smite becomes hard to get off, even with the +1. So, we then need to rely on the other damage psychic spells. A unit of 5 rubrics
is only a bit more expensive than a sorceror, but it has 10 wounds plus its a lot harder to kill than a sorceror or exalted sorceror. Plus it can also shoot, fight better, and its obsec. The one cast less is not going to matter if I stuff enough units of rubrics anyway. Occult terminators provide better protection though more expensive, and more improtantly, are our more reliable combat troops if we need to charge a unit on an objective or counter charge something that is muscling on our objective.

I rather have enough units of rubrics and terminators which can also smite, to ensure that my psykers get to keep on blasting until turn 5, as opposed to spending 800 points on characters, only to see them get killed on turn 3 or 4 because there are no units left to give them look out sir, or they are spending their time on objectives related stuff.

This brings me to my final point. Its not easy to construct a Tsons list. We want to do everything. But everything does cost points. If we have too many throwaway units for stuff like engage or actions, that's less points for our main force. Too many points into characters, and we don't have enough points in the units to protect them. Also, many of our units are only movement 6, because our mainstay are our rubrics and termis. Ah welll, its a fun challenge, and our psychic power is just so tasty now!

BTW, I would calculate how many smites and damage psychic I intend to cast every round with my Tsons army as a default setting, and then work from there. A Tsons army will win by obliterating its opponent with psychic plus shooting. Its not going to win by casting only buff spells instead of smites.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 03:27:32


Post by: JNAProductions


So, with that last post in mind...

How viable is a melee-heavy TSons list? I don't have the 'Dex, and may not get it (if it can't do what I want it to, not worth the $50) but what if you went heavy on Scarab Occult Terminators, maybe some Tzaangors for chaffy melee, some Maulerfiends... Obviously you'd have a decent shooting and psychic punch, but can you do work in CC?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 03:34:01


Post by: Sasori


This is my first stab at a list:

Spoiler:

==Cult of Duplicty Battalion== 17 Cabal Points 8 Starting Command Points == 1999 points
Ahriman - 180 Otherwordly Precisence
Exalted Sorcerer, Orrey, Duplicity WLT
Infernal Master, Helm (Malestrom, Glipse)

==Troops==
Rubric Marine X5 - Icon, Soulreaper
Rubric Marine X5 - Icon, Soulreaper
Rubric Marine X5 - Icon, Soulreaper
Rubric Marine X5 - Icon, Soulreaper

==Elite=
Contemptor Dreadnought - Double Volkite, Missile Launcher
Contemptor Dreadnought - Double Volkite, Missile Launcher
Scarab Occult Terminators X10 2x Soulreaper, 1x ML

==Fast Attack==
Chaos Spawn X2
Chaos Spawn X1


==Heavy Support==
Forge Fiend - X3 Ectoplasm
Forge Fiend - X3 Ectoplasm


Goal is to do duplity things. I think in almost all cases Warped Landscape should see you scoring 12 points, unless they have psykers. At which point you want to take wrath anyway. Sisters may be the only exception there, but you can use the cabal points to make it uncounterable as well, though I'd likely just take a diffrent secondary.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 03:35:05


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 JNAProductions wrote:
So, with that last post in mind...

How viable is a melee-heavy TSons list? I don't have the 'Dex, and may not get it (if it can't do what I want it to, not worth the $50) but what if you went heavy on Scarab Occult Terminators, maybe some Tzaangors for chaffy melee, some Maulerfiends... Obviously you'd have a decent shooting and psychic punch, but can you do work in CC?


Well.. honestly, if you want that. Grey knights do that better. Seriously. All of the grey knights units fight really well.

The only Tsons units that are decent in combat are as follows:

Occult terminators with their 2 damage weapons, Maulerfiends, Defilers, and Magnus (which is a big risk of a model of course) and possibly chaos spawn.

BTW, weaver of fates can only be cast once each turn. Army wide, most of our stuff are 5++ but each turn, we can only make ONE unit a 4++ if we get off weaver of fates. We need to think carefully about which unit that is going to be...

Tsangors are average now actually. They only have 2 attacks each. And they can't fight twice anymore, they aren't core. And their WS dropped from 3+ to 4+. Honestly, if we are relying on them as our mainstay combat... its not going to go well. Tons of other factions units are going to outfight them.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 03:36:22


Post by: JNAProductions


Eldenfirefly wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
So, with that last post in mind...

How viable is a melee-heavy TSons list? I don't have the 'Dex, and may not get it (if it can't do what I want it to, not worth the $50) but what if you went heavy on Scarab Occult Terminators, maybe some Tzaangors for chaffy melee, some Maulerfiends... Obviously you'd have a decent shooting and psychic punch, but can you do work in CC?


Well.. honestly, if you want that. Grey knights do that better. Seriously. All of the grey knights units fight really well.

The only Tsons units that are decent in combat are as follows:

Occult terminators with their 2 damage weapons, Maulerfiends, Defilers, and Magnus (which is a big risk of a model of course).

Tsangors are average now actually. They only have 2 attacks each. And they can't fight twice anymore, they aren't core. And their WS dropped from 3+ to 4+. Honestly, if we are relying on them as our mainstay combat... its not going to go well. Tons of other factions units are going to outfight them.
But Grey Knights have Imperial cooties!

Plus TSons have a more modern range than GK.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 03:40:17


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I know, I am forever a chaos player. However, why try and fit a round peg into a square hole. Tsons are not designed to be fighty. Trying to do that would result in a much less effective list.

Actually, daemon engines are probably our best bet if we want a fighty list. But movement would be an issue. Its going to be tough trying to move 3 hellbrutes and 3 defilers/mauler fiends across the board.

I am thinking that our best bet is still a leaf blower type list. One that focus on blowing our opponent off the board with our shooting and psychic and then we pick up the VPs when there isn't much enemy forces left on turn 4 and 5.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 03:42:51


Post by: JNAProductions


Eldenfirefly wrote:
I know, I am forever a chaos player. However, why try and fit a round peg into a square hole. Tsons are not designed to be fighty. Trying to do that would result in a much less effective list.

Actually, daemon engines are probably our best bet if we want a fighty list. But movement would be an issue. Its going to be tough trying to move 3 hellbrutes and 3 defilers/mauler fiends across the board.
I'm not a tournament player, nor are most of the people I play with at my local GW. And the few tournament players who do show up there are pretty chill and won't bring a stompy list to combat a mediocre one.

So while I do want to build an effective army, I don't need it to be bleeding-edge.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 04:05:01


Post by: Eldenfirefly


On the note of the default blasting capability of Tsons. (And if you are not looking at this, you are missing out on playing to the best strengths of a Tsons army).

Smites start at WC 5 and go up for each smite. We get a +1 to cast. So, we should be able to reasonably get 3 to 4 smites off before it becomes extremely hard to cast even with our +1. Lets assume 4 smites each round on average.

Thats 4d3 mortal wounds right there.

Disciple of change has Tzeetch firestorm, and doombolt which gives a flat 3 MW. Lets assume Tzeentch firestorm also gives on average 3 MW. That's another 6 MW there.

In Disciple of Vengence, there is Infernal gaze, and gift of chaos. Infernal gaze is d3, and gift of chaos is very hard to get off cos its so short range. Desecration of Worlds is too situational. Its more of a psychic to basically make your opponent unit "not move" because if it is willing to take multiple MW just to move, its probably desperate already.

So between firestorm, doombolt and infernal gaze, we have 6+d3 MW, And another 4 smites giving us 4d3. So, thats 6 + 5d3 MW we can reasonably get off once we have enough units within smite range. Note that these likely only start going off on turn 2 onwards because a good opponent worth its salt is likely to have everything out of smite range on turn 1.

Oh, cabalistic rituals include adding on another d3 MW to a MW spell for just 4 CP. Definitely auto incude since we are doing so much blasting.

So, we need to get 7 casts off each turn pplus 4 Cabal points to do 6+6d3 (average 18 MW) each turn from turn 2 onwards. Assuming we can keep this up with no lack of targets, that would work out to an average of 72 MW done to our opponent army by turn 5.

Add in our shooting, and it should wreck most armies as long we can keep up our MW psyhic.

This doesn't factor in if you took a cult that has a damage MW psychic as its power. This also assumes they didn't get denied or failed to cast of course. Or if you took Magnus, which adds another source of scary MW output all by himself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rhinos stuffed with 10 Tazangors or cultists are interesting for approaching an objective. Our Rhinos are the hard to kill compared to other Rhinos. And Tzangors are ok at fighting if the target has been softened up with smites, plus they are cheap enough that even if you lose that unit, its not going to bite that much. They are reasonably tanky too with their 5++.

Plus a Rhino is pretty good at shooting too since it can equip double combi inferno bolters.

I might consider an advancing wall of rubics, terminators with characters behind them. While one or two Rhinos with tzangors race ahead to contest objectives with obsec.

Hellbrutes with lascannons and Defilers are a good consideration for the army I have in mind too. because they can shoot, plus they have the melee capability to wreck stuff that dares to come too close. I won't go overboard with them. But maybe 2 defilers (one in each of my corners), and 2 hellbrutes is something to consider. It all depends on whether I can even fit all that into a Tsons list. Bare in mind we want that minimum 7 to 8 casts each turn on MW spells as well. So we need a certain amount of rubrics, terminators and characters to pull that off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't have the codex yet either so not sure if this can all be fit into 2000 points.

But something like this:

Arihman on Disc.
Exalted Sorceror or infernal master

4 squads of 5 rubrics (with soureaper cannons?).

1 squad of 10 Tzaangors in a Rhino. (maybe cultists if lack of points)

2 Hellbtues with lascannons and fist.

3 squads of 5 Occult terminators with hellfire racks and soul reaper cannons.

2 Defilers with twin lascannons and defiler scourge.

Thats 12 psychic casts each turn, so getting off the damage MW spells should be easy. And it has the vehicles to help out in close combat, and one Rhino with tzaangors to charge forward and contest an objective. The rest of the army will just move forward 6 inches a turn and blast the opponent off the board with smites, spells and shooting. The good thing about having the defilers and hellbrutes is that despite having an army mostly focused on shooting and psychic, 7 units are pretty good at fighting as well. (the 2 hellbrutes, 2 defilers and 3 squads of Terminators).


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 04:37:49


Post by: yukishiro1


It's not a fighty army, but there are some reasonably fighty things in it, mainly against elite or better targets. Helbrutes in particular look like some of the better combat value in the book, thanks to getting a free 5++ from the legion trait. A helbrute with a multi-melta and fist is 120 points (125 if you take the inferno storm bolter), shoots at 4x the range, and has one less attack than a maulerfiend. Plus it has core, so it gets reroll 1s to hit, may well be able to take advantage of its reroll 1s to wound rule as well, and doesn't degrade. It's also on a far more manageable base size. For 20 points less, 30 if you take tendrils. It does have 4 less wounds, and goes from S14 d3+3 to "just" S12 3D attacks, but it's reasonably rare that either of those ends up being super important, and the -1D largely offsets the 4 less wounds against a wide variety of common anti-tank. The core is a big deal, and makes them more attractive than maulers IMO, especially since the multimelta gives them a little bit of reasonably ranged anti-tank as well, something the book generally lacks.

On the other end of the spectrum, 5 spawn for 115 points can drown a surprisingly wide variety of targets in very points efficient attacks. 1CP and you're looking at an average 35 S5 AP2 2D attacks, or 25 at AP4 or AP2 rerolling wounds. The random attacks and the 4+ to hit makes them exceedingly unreliable, but nothing else in the book comes remotely close for damage per point.

But it's definitely not a melee book overall.

In general the book does well against elite armies that pay points for defense; the book is literally drowning in MWs, by far the most reliable way to remove invuln saves in the game, and generally highish AP sattacks. Where it struggles is at killing large volumes of cheap, low-wound, low-save models. There's really nothing in the book that's efficient at killing GEQ; some stuff is decent, but there's nothing that stands out the way that, say, wyches do.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 04:42:32


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Yup, I definitely think Hellbrutes are a hidden gem for Tsons. They add much needed melee capability and with 5++, and -1 damage, they are much tankier than other CSM hellbrutes.

Also, the shooting of a Tsons army is not to be underestimated. In my initial list with 4 squads of rubrics and 3 squads of 5 terminators, 2 lascannon hellbrutes and 2 defilers. Thats 8 lascannon shots, 2d6 battle cannon shots, 6 hellfire missiles racks shots for long range anti armor, plus a ton of up to 80 inferno bolt shots.

And this is on top of the 18 to 20 MW we can throw out each turn in psychic bullets.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 05:09:57


Post by: H.B.M.C.


When it comes to Hellfyre racks, do people put them on a different model to the one with the heavy weapon, or the same weapon?

I've always taken an 'eggs in one basket' approach to Terminators - the more 'ablative wounds' for the main guns/HTH threats, the better, so for instance the Reaper AC or Assault Cannon guy would also get the Chainfist - but I wonder what other people do?



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 05:10:30


Post by: Eldenfirefly


yukishiro1 wrote:
It's not a fighty army, ...

But it's definitely not a melee book overall.

In general the book does well against elite armies that pay points for defense; the book is literally drowning in MWs, by far the most reliable way to remove invuln saves in the game, and generally highish AP sattacks. Where it struggles is at killing large volumes of cheap, low-wound, low-save models. There's really nothing in the book that's efficient at killing GEQ; some stuff is decent, but there's nothing that stands out the way that, say, wyches do.
.

I think inferno bolts are the perfect weapon for mowing down GEQ actually. The AP 2 removes GEQ saves and if we pack enough rubrics and temrinators, a TSons army can pump out a horrendous number of inferno bolt shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
When it comes to Hellfyre racks, do people put them on a different model to the one with the heavy weapon, or the same weapon?

I've always taken an 'eggs in one basket' approach to Terminators - the more 'ablative wounds' for the main guns/HTH threats, the better, so for instance the Reaper AC or Assault Cannon guy would also get the Chainfist - but I wonder what other people do?



Same as you. The more abalative wounds, the better.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 05:14:01


Post by: xeen


Anyone else notice the strat that doubles the shots for a soulreaper cannon against 11+ models? I think that will be helpful against hoards as my list has like 4 soulreapers in it so probably will be able to use 3 turns or so. Also there is a relic staff that doubles CC attacks. Can be put in a SoT sorcerer to get 8 attacks I believe which could help against hoards.

What cults are people leaning towards? I really can’t decide which I like best.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 05:26:05


Post by: yukishiro1


1CP for another 6 soulreaper shots isn't great value. It only really makes sense on a 10 block of termies that have two; 12 shots for 1CP is pretty good. I'm really not sure about that unit though, I think TSons is going to be straight MSU now, given how much more you get from an aspiring sorc than from a normal dude, especially on Scarabs where you aren't even giving up a gun. Hard for me to see the case for running a block of 10 vs two 5-man squads that get twice the psychic ability in addition to all the other advantages of being under 6.

Inferno bolters themselves are great at killing GEQ in theory, but the models they are mounted on are all super inefficient offensively. Rubrics are downright terrible at killing stuff for their points, and scarabs are only slightly better.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 05:27:00


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 xeen wrote:
Anyone else notice the strat that doubles the shots for a soulreaper cannon against 11+ models? I think that will be helpful against hoards as my list has like 4 soulreapers in it so probably will be able to use 3 turns or so. Also there is a relic staff that doubles CC attacks. Can be put in a SoT sorcerer to get 8 attacks I believe which could help against hoards.

What cults are people leaning towards? I really can’t decide which I like best.


I don't have the codex yet, so I can't say. All I have to go on is the goonhammer review and what I observe from watching the youtube battle reports. In any case, no matter how good a psychic power sounds, bare in mind you can only cast it once a turn. And also from the way I see it, its better to go with MSU units rather one big bloc because that makes the defensive stategems cheaper (1 CP as compared to 3 CP).

I think Cult of Time is good for me personally. Its hard to kill off an entire squad of rubrics or terminators because they are immune to morale unless you go for overkill. Once battle starts and is joined, there should be squads down one or more models somewhere on the battlefield, so the ability for any one of these squads to cast time flux each turn at WC 5 and bring back one destroyed model adds up to 4 or more models over the whole game. That adds up to one entire squad right there already over the course of the whole game.

Plus it may help to keep our characters alive. Maybe the squad is down to 2 models now, so it can't provide look out sir. But cast time flux and bring back one model and suddenly, now it can.

(I am reading this off rituals of the damned. Not sure if time flux has changed or not). Time flux is now more powerful because you are either bringing back a 2W rubric marine or a 3W terminator.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote:
1CP for another 6 soulreaper shots isn't great value. It only really makes sense on a 10 block of termies that have two; 12 shots for 1CP is pretty good. I'm really not sure about that unit though, I think TSons is going to be straight MSU now, given how much more you get from an aspiring sorc than from a normal dude, especially on Scarabs where you aren't even giving up a gun. Hard for me to see the case for running a block of 10 vs two 5-man squads that get twice the psychic ability in addition to all the other advantages of being under 6.

Inferno bolters themselves are great at killing GEQ in theory, but the models they are mounted on are all super inefficient offensively. Rubrics are downright terrible at killing stuff for their points, and scarabs are only slightly better.


True, but its not like imperial guard are that good at fighting anyway. As we already observed, Most TSons units are not that great at melee. We are active during the psychic and shooting phase. Much less so during the combat phase. Which melee GEQ horde army exactly are you thinking of when it comes to a horde? Daemons ? Tyranids ? Orcs ?

Actually, can you elaborate on why rubrics are bad offensively for their points? I don't quite understand that statement. From what I understand, a squad of 5 rubrics can now bring a soul reaper cannon. So, thats 4 models with inferno bolt shots and one soul reaper cannon with 5 shots. Plus the champion can hurl out a smite during the psychic phase.

So, thats a fair number of inferno bolt shots plus 5 soul reaper cannon shots plus a smite. That sounds pretty good to me actually.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 06:09:25


Post by: Radikus


I really feel like TS are gonna be great. Some matchups are gonna be really good and for now I'm ignoring the meta boogeymen as those tend to get toned down over time. Elite armies are really gonna have a rough time vs the mortals, DG, Custodes, SM etc.. A fair chunk of the armies. We aren't without our tougher matchups like sisters, likely orks and the boogeymen (for now).


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 06:22:34


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Yeah, they aren't stupidly OP broken like the current boogeyman right now. But I think they will be very good in the hands of a good player. Its just as well they aren't obviously, stupidly broken because then nobody will cry nerf. They are something which Chaos lists really needed.

Pure Tsons is good and fluffy, don't get me wrong. But a mixed chaos list with a Tsons detachment is also pretty good. You lose cabalistic rituals, but you still retain the +1 to cast on all the Tson psykers and everything else.

Remember how we are saying it takes some effort to make a big bloc of Scarab occult terminators as resilient as DG ? If you run a DG detachment and a Tsons detachment, you can simply have a big bloc of DG blightlords in the center where you can park all of your Tsons castors, plus a Foul Blightspawn. Now you suddenly have that big core of resilient, hard to kill center that can give look out sir to all of your psykers, plus nobody in their right mind wants to charge a block of 10 blightlords with a foul blightspawn giving them fight last. Especially if they will get smite to death the following turn even if they survive the charge.

Is it worth giving up cabalistic rituals? who knows.

I don't have the codex yet, but the idea of trying out a mixed chaos list of DG and TSons is appealing too. A big block of 10 blightlords with all the characters behind them to bully the center, while 3 squads of Occult terminators move up and provide additional firepower plus psychic as well ... That's 25 terminators for an opponent to chew through. lol

It has a lot more ranged firepower than a typical DG list, while still being pretty resilient.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 06:28:58


Post by: Arachnofiend


Cabalistic Rituals are pretty good but I'm honestly more worried about giving up the secondaries for souping; Mutate Landscape and Wrath of Magnus are both gonna be really good in a lot of matchups.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 06:45:55


Post by: Radikus


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yeah, they aren't stupidly OP broken like the current boogeyman right now. But I think they will be very good in the hands of a good player. Its just as well they aren't obviously, stupidly broken because then nobody will cry nerf. They are something which Chaos lists really needed.

Pure Tsons is good and fluffy, don't get me wrong. But a mixed chaos list with a Tsons detachment is also pretty good. You lose cabalistic rituals, but you still retain the +1 to cast on all the Tson psykers and everything else.

Remember how we are saying it takes some effort to make a big bloc of Scarab occult terminators as resilient as DG ? If you run a DG detachment and a Tsons detachment, you can simply have a big bloc of DG blightlords in the center where you can park all of your Tsons castors, plus a Foul Blightspawn. Now you suddenly have that big core of resilient, hard to kill center that can give look out sir to all of your psykers, plus nobody in their right mind wants to charge a block of 10 blightlords with a foul blightspawn giving them fight last. Especially if they will get smite to death the following turn even if they survive the charge.

Is it worth giving up cabalistic rituals? who knows.

I don't have the codex yet, but the idea of trying out a mixed chaos list of DG and TSons is appealing too. A big block of 10 blightlords with all the characters behind them to bully the center, while 3 squads of Occult terminators move up and provide additional firepower plus psychic as well ... That's 25 terminators for an opponent to chew through. lol

It has a lot more ranged firepower than a typical DG list, while still being pretty resilient.


As more and more chaos books come out the power of soup becomes greater, this might just be the start of the new soup era. I do agree that it depends on how important cabalistic ritual becomes. My gut says super important as we've all failed that important psychic test during a pivotal moment, but this is all theory hammer.

Actually the more I think about this and watch some battle reports I feel like GK and TS are gonna really shake things up. They aren't OP by any means but the amount of mortal wounds are really gonna punish armies and push elite infantry down.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 06:55:26


Post by: yukishiro1


Eldenfirefly wrote:


Actually, can you elaborate on why rubrics are bad offensively for their points? I don't quite understand that statement. From what I understand, a squad of 5 rubrics can now bring a soul reaper cannon. So, thats 4 models with inferno bolt shots and one soul reaper cannon with 5 shots. Plus the champion can hurl out a smite during the psychic phase.

So, thats a fair number of inferno bolt shots plus 5 soul reaper cannon shots plus a smite. That sounds pretty good to me actually.



5 Rubrics with a cannon is 115 points. For that, you get 3 inferno bolters and the cannon - the sorc only has a pistol. So in the very best case scenario (w/in 12"), that's 7 S4 AP-2 1D shots and 5 S6 AP-3 1D shots, and potentially up to 8 S4 AP 0 and 3 S7 AP-1 d3 damage melee attacks. It's not absolutely terrible, thanks to the cannon's ranged output and the sorc's melee output, but it's very anemic for 115 points. There are many units in the game that will put out easily double the damage per point as rubrics, maybe even triple for premium melee units - which makes sense, since rubrics are paying a lot for their defensive profile and their psyker. I'm not saying they're a bad unit, they're not in the new book, but their offense is extremely mediocre for their cost.

edit: Oh, cannon's only 5 shots, not 6, which makes it even worse.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 07:09:33


Post by: Eldenfirefly


yukishiro1 wrote:


5 Rubrics with a cannon is 115 points. For that, you get 3 inferno bolters and the cannon - the sorc only has a pistol. So in the very best case scenario (w/in 12"), that's 7 S4 AP-2 1D shots and 5 S6 AP-3 1D shots, and potentially up to 8 S4 AP 0 and 3 S7 AP-1 d3 damage melee attacks. It's not absolutely terrible, thanks to the cannon's ranged output and the sorc's melee output, but it's very anemic for 115 points. There are many units in the game that will put out easily double the damage per point as rubrics, maybe even triple for premium melee units - which makes sense, since rubrics are paying a lot for their defensive profile and their psyker. I'm not saying they're a bad unit, they're not in the new book, but their offense is extremely mediocre for their cost.

edit: Oh, cannon's only 5 shots, not 6, which makes it even worse.


This raises an interesting point. If rubrics dmg output are mediocre, then what's the use of having the best Rhinos in the game if there is nothing worthwhile for them to transport? Tsons have no posssessed, and no worthwhile infantry that can ride in a 5++ Rhino. I suppose we can just go for a cheap 10 tzaangors in a Rhino and hope to win by sheer numbers on an objective.

How about if we use a warp flamer loadout on a 5 man Rubric squad ? Does that make them better in a Rhino? each warpflamer is d6 autohit shots right? Can the champion take a warpflamer? 5d6 autohit shots at AP 2 sounds good. How much does it cost to swap an inferno bolter for a warp flamer in the new codex ?

(Looking at the old Tsons codex, the Aspiring Sorceror can replace his inferno pistol with a warpflame pistol. ) Also d6 shots, but at strength 3, but also AP2. So, yeah, 5d6 AP 2 flamer shots are doable. It depends on whether its worthwhile trying this since our Rhinos are now more resilient. Flamers are a pretty good deterrent to being charged as well. Eating that many AP 2 warpflame shots in overwatch is going to hurt !!! lol


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 07:24:12


Post by: BoomWolf


 Arachnofiend wrote:
Had an idea for a good way to use a Loyal Thrall Sorcerer: if you run Cult of Duplicity you can warp onto empty objectives and immediately score Mutate Landscape. Duplicity should be fun for scoring in general, you can use it for punishing unprotected Banners too.


Take it up to 11 by giving him the 3d6 action warlord trait and see gem free even more mobility when you can't afford to cast (or to bring a squad along for the ride)

Effective? Debatable
Infuriating? Most definitely


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 07:27:53


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 BoomWolf wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
Had an idea for a good way to use a Loyal Thrall Sorcerer: if you run Cult of Duplicity you can warp onto empty objectives and immediately score Mutate Landscape. Duplicity should be fun for scoring in general, you can use it for punishing unprotected Banners too.


Take it up to 11 by giving him the 3d6 action warlord trait and see gem free even more mobility when you can't afford to cast (or to bring a squad along for the ride)

Effective? Debatable
Infuriating? Most definitely


Sounds fun! Of course, bear in mind that thrall sorceror will be alone and snipable after that. Do you want to throw away a 100 points sorceror just for that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more I think about what Tzaangors benefit from being in a Rhino, the more I am liking that idea.

Turn 1, Tzaangor raise banners on a back objective, the Rhino blocks line of sight to them and present itself as a cheap T7 10W block of 5++ that is empty. Plus the Rhino gets to shoot its inferno combi rounds.

Turn 2, Tzangoors get onto the Rhino and it move advance up the board onto a midfield objective. So, two turns of shooting plus psychic to thin out the center.

Turn 3, pile out and charge something after it has been softened up. Or get out of the Rhino onto a midfield objective cleared of the enemy and raise more banners.

Kill the Rhino, and 10 cheap Tzaangors with T4 and 5++ pile out of the Rhino onto the objective anyway.

Kill the Tzaangors in melee, and now you get charged by the Occult terminators coming up behind them.

Don't kill them, next turn, they pile into the Rhino and make the next leap forward to the enemy deployment zone objective. While the obsec occult terminators coming up behind them now take over the midfield objective they just vacated.

A Rhino with 10 Tzaangors in it is cheap, a pain to the butt to kill, and yet if you ignore it to go for other stuff in a Tsons army, it can take over objectives, perform actions, and rack up a ton of VP.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 08:31:18


Post by: BoomWolf


Too bad a rhino cant carry tzaangors, rendering the whole idea moot.

And the "alone and afraid" problem is why I suggested bringing a squad along with the gem.
Though at some cases, you could just hide him well enough for it to work.

Throwing a 100 point sorcerer is bad, spending a 100 points for a decent chunk of VP after using it earlier in the game to cast spells-possible tech.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 08:33:03


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 BoomWolf wrote:
Too bad a rhino cant carry tzaangors, rendering the whole idea moot.

And the "alone and afraid" problem is why I suggested bringing a squad along with the gem.
Though at some cases, you could just hide him well enough for it to work.

Throwing a 100 point sorcerer is bad, spending a 100 points for a decent chunk of VP after using it earlier in the game to cast spells-possible tech.


what... a Rhino can't carry Tzaangors? how come? @@ In the old codex, the Rhino can carry 10 Tsons infantry models, and Tzaangors have the infantry keyword... Did they change it in the new codex ? @@


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 08:34:55


Post by: Marshal Loss


What do folks think is the best relic to throw on a Cult of Magic "pew pew" caster (presumably an Exalted Sorcerer), assuming he has Devastating Sorcery as his WL trait?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 08:36:43


Post by: BoomWolf


Eldenfirefly wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Too bad a rhino cant carry tzaangors, rendering the whole idea moot.

And the "alone and afraid" problem is why I suggested bringing a squad along with the gem.
Though at some cases, you could just hide him well enough for it to work.

Throwing a 100 point sorcerer is bad, spending a 100 points for a decent chunk of VP after using it earlier in the game to cast spells-possible tech.


what... a Rhino can't carry Tzaangors? how come? @@ In the old codex, the Rhino can carry 10 Tsons infantry models, and Tzaangors have the infantry keyword... Did they change it in the new codex ? @@


It can carry 10 Arcana Astardes Infantry, and goats are not such. niether are cultists.
Also forbidden from termies.

So basically, rubrics and sorcerers.


 Marshal Loss wrote:
What do folks think is the best relic to throw on a Cult of Magic "pew pew" caster (presumably an Exalted Sorcerer), assuming he has Devastating Sorcery as his WL trait?


Athenean scrolls maybe to get an easy supercast on smites?
And obviously you'd use a base sorcerer with with warrior, not an exalted.

Its basically a meme, but in small games the sheer MW output would be stunning.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 08:38:53


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Zzzzz... Our Rhinos can only carry rubrics and sorcerors? That sounds so restrictive... :(

Rubrics in a Rhino sounds like a gamble. If it blows up and you roll a few 1s... that's a few rubrics just gone. Rubrics are too expensive to risk that happening. I would rather use the gem or other means if I want to get rubrics closer...

Its such a pity because our Rhinos are one of the best in the game, with a 5++ save and being able to carry double inferno combi bolters for quite a cheap cost.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 08:43:40


Post by: Derp Angels Librarian


A question about the healing effect of 'Warped regeneration' 'Aetheric saturation' and 'Temporal manipulation' : They all have the condition that says each model can only be healed once per turn. Does this mean that, for example, I can't heal Magnus with both the 'Warped regeneration' stratagems and 'Temporal manipulation' psychic power in the same turn?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 08:47:49


Post by: Marshal Loss


 BoomWolf wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
What do folks think is the best relic to throw on a Cult of Magic "pew pew" caster (presumably an Exalted Sorcerer), assuming he has Devastating Sorcery as his WL trait?


Athenean scrolls maybe to get an easy supercast on smites?
And obviously you'd use a base sorcerer with with warrior, not an exalted.

Its basically a meme, but in small games the sheer MW output would be stunning.


Thanks for the tips! Had missed the WW interaction, and I'm only looking to put together a force for small games, so this sounds like fun


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 10:02:57


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


 BoomWolf wrote:

It can carry 10 Arcana Astardes Infantry, and goats are not such. niether are cultists.
Also forbidden from termies.

So basically, rubrics and sorcerers.


What ? That's silly. Both in fluff and balance. Especially for the birds and the cultists.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 11:33:05


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Hmmm.. I am struggling to understand why we should be bringing more than the minimum number of characters required even though they let us bring more thrall sorcerers for each exalted sorcerer.

A sorcerer has 2 casts, but has 5W. 3 attacks, 3+, 5++ save and 1 deny.

For a bit more points, I can get a rubric squad that will have an aspiring sorcerer, The whole squad will now have 1 cast, 1 deny, 10W, 10 attacks, 3+ plus all is dust, and also far more shooting than a sorceer's single inferno pistol. And the whole unit is obsec, immune to morale.

Why would I ever want to add another sorcerer instead of just taking an additional rubric squad? Is it worth that one extra cast? Especially since all the aspiring sorcerers also have +1 to cast, and has access to both vengence and change disciplines.

It just doesn't compute. Once I start seeing rubric squads as a 10W sorcerer with one cast that is also obsec... suddenly they look pretty good... lol

The only reason to have exalted sorcerer is because we have to have two HQ. Plus we can give them warlord traits and relics to really power up their casting so that they can potentially throw out super smites. In which case, one or two such psykers characters is enough. Not sure if we have enough such relics and warlord traits to power up three characters.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 12:23:06


Post by: the_scotsman


 xeen wrote:
Anyone else notice the strat that doubles the shots for a soulreaper cannon against 11+ models? I think that will be helpful against hoards as my list has like 4 soulreapers in it so probably will be able to use 3 turns or so. Also there is a relic staff that doubles CC attacks. Can be put in a SoT sorcerer to get 8 attacks I believe which could help against hoards.

What cults are people leaning towards? I really can’t decide which I like best.


its nice, but is there any way to get 2 soulreapers in 1 squad? is it just 'run 10 termiantors as a block' to do that?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 15:58:52


Post by: yukishiro1


 Derp Angels Librarian wrote:
A question about the healing effect of 'Warped regeneration' 'Aetheric saturation' and 'Temporal manipulation' : They all have the condition that says each model can only be healed once per turn. Does this mean that, for example, I can't heal Magnus with both the 'Warped regeneration' stratagems and 'Temporal manipulation' psychic power in the same turn?


That occurred to me as well. I think the answer is yes, but they could have been clearer in the wording that "healed" is now a general attribute that each of these different effects all apply. Even just capitalizing Healed would have made it clearer it's now a status you have or you don't have.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 16:01:16


Post by: xeen


Wow Admec and Dark Eldar Strats must really have broken the expectations of Strats if 1CP for 5 additional S6 -3ap shots against hoards (many of whom would be wounded on 2's) is considered bad. I mean, yea it is not double shoot or even remotely comparable to Admech non-sense, but I would not call this bad.

That sucks about Tgors in a Rhino, and basically eliminates any real use for either units at this point. I will probably just use a min Tgor unit for back field objective, but that's it, and I am even thinking of just removing them completely.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 16:06:24


Post by: yukishiro1


 the_scotsman wrote:
 xeen wrote:
Anyone else notice the strat that doubles the shots for a soulreaper cannon against 11+ models? I think that will be helpful against hoards as my list has like 4 soulreapers in it so probably will be able to use 3 turns or so. Also there is a relic staff that doubles CC attacks. Can be put in a SoT sorcerer to get 8 attacks I believe which could help against hoards.

What cults are people leaning towards? I really can’t decide which I like best.


its nice, but is there any way to get 2 soulreapers in 1 squad? is it just 'run 10 termiantors as a block' to do that?


Yeah, 10 termies is the only way to get 2 soulreapers, which I don't think is a good idea given how that causes the best defensive strat to jump from 1CP for 5 to 3CP for 6-10.

They're really pushing MSU super hard in this book, very hard for me to see why you'd ever take above a strictly min size squad of literally anything in this book except spawn. 30 cultists to give them a 4++ and sit somewhere is probably the best way to take cultists if you're going to, but it's still terrible.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 16:08:07


Post by: H.B.M.C.


They've been pushing MSU super-hard ever since they defined a "horde" as anything with 6 or more models.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 16:16:46


Post by: yukishiro1


 xeen wrote:
Wow Admec and Dark Eldar Strats must really have broken the expectations of Strats if 1CP for 5 additional S6 -3ap shots against hoards (many of whom would be wounded on 2's) is considered bad. I mean, yea it is not double shoot or even remotely comparable to Admech non-sense, but I would not call this bad.


The "average" conversion rate for a strat is 1CP for 2 MW if the conditions are met. 5 shots at S6 AP3 1D is about that on average in that it averages in ~2 more wounds inflicted against your likely target profile, but the condition is against a horde, i.e. something that's going to be very cheap. 1CP to kill 10-20 points of models is not a great conversion rate. I can see there might be times when it makes sense to use it on a single cannon, but it's very much in the "this exists, but if you completely forgot about it for your entire 40k career, it really wouldn't matter" category of strats.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 16:31:52


Post by: drakerocket


Really quite disappointed in the no tanzgors in rhinos thing. I feel the 10 in a rhino would have been a deeply solid backbone for the army.

That being said, I still think they have a reasonable place. A tzaangor bomb of 20 + shaman is still a good DMC target. Tossing it up turn one with a brayhorn and throwing down weaver on it stands a decent charge chance and will be irritating as heck for many opponents to screen. It isn't that many points and if it gets the charge off will eat a lot of screening units, leaving the opponents very vulnerable to psychic powers, since screens are a vital defense. You can also string them for big time move-blocking. 8 in rerollable is a little less than 70%~. There aren't a ton of guns that love shooting into T4 4++

In general I think tzaangors mostly suffer from mobility which rhinos would have solved. They aren't amazing in melee, but they are totally enough to kill what you need them to. 10 unsupported do well into a squad of wyches, into a unit of sisters, kill any generic small objective holder. They don't do the best into intercessors, but they will steal a point from them on the charge (kill 1 intercessor on the charge, lose 3 gors to the crack back, 7 vs 4).

I think it is definitely worth looking at forgeworld options. We have good buffs for volcoms (for shooting they hardcore outdo hellbrutes) and even fire raptors feel like a reasonable consideration.

I agree on feeling luke warm on rubrics. I really want to like them, but AP-2 shooting just doesn't feel great. They feel just on the cusp; if they were just a bit cheaper, if all is dust had gotten some kind of meaningful improvement...heck even if the aspiring sorc got a full bolter I'd feel better.

The flamer might have some play; having run sisters ret squads with heavy flamers, they felt very strong. You're trading +2 strength (which can be buffed) for -1 AP. No max shots strat but you're on a much tougher platform and you have obsec, plus of course the psychic power. Probably reasonable for the 25 extra points. I think 2-3 squads in rhinos moving up the board have legit play; it notably ticks up their output (roughly 100% increase before buffs) and, perhaps just as important, provides a strong defense against charges which is a vulnerability of theirs. That squad now kills roughly 4 intercessors between psychic and shooting if you give them a start or psychic buff, which isn't bad for 125 points. I think they're probably the best thing in a rhino we can do.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 16:32:57


Post by: xeen


yukishiro1 wrote:
 xeen wrote:
Wow Admec and Dark Eldar Strats must really have broken the expectations of Strats if 1CP for 5 additional S6 -3ap shots against hoards (many of whom would be wounded on 2's) is considered bad. I mean, yea it is not double shoot or even remotely comparable to Admech non-sense, but I would not call this bad.


The "average" conversion rate for a strat is 1CP for 2 MW if the conditions are met. 5 shots at S6 AP3 1D is about that on average in that it averages in ~2 more wounds inflicted against your likely target profile, but the condition is against a horde, i.e. something that's going to be very cheap. 1CP to kill 10-20 points of models is not a great conversion rate. I can see there might be times when it makes sense to use it on a single cannon, but it's very much in the "this exists, but if you completely forgot about it for your entire 40k career, it really wouldn't matter" category of strats.


I am not saying it is super good, and yea by mathhammer, it is probably not the most efficient. But against something like admec, where you need to cut those skitairi units down as much as possible, I think it will have a use. I mean when you use it on a Soulreaper (which is one weapon) it becomes 10 shots, and hits on 3's, wounds on 2's and even if they have a 2+ save, it is down to 5+. And under these circumstances you would probably use the +1 to hit power on them, so hitting on 2's (re-roll ones with Exalted), then would on 2's. It is not hard to imagine a decent roll that sees like 7-8 skitari down. And for them that is like losing 20 something shots.

Yes the math says on average it will kill two more models. However, for 1 CP, having the ability to potentially take down 5 more with a semi-decent roll I think will be worth it under several circumstances. Again, I am not saying this is a must use every game (like the 3MW causing strat which will probably be used every psychic phase), but I think completely forgetting about it is a mistake, and there will be times you are glad you have it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also think rubrics are probably a point to much. I can foresee a competitive list with maybe 3 units of 5 SoT, 1 unit of 10 flamer rubrics for real punch, 2 units of min Tgor to hold backfield. That would be 1055, so 950 to use on some support characters, hellbrutes, contemptors, or maybe even Leviathan or Vindicators. Since the SoT are obsec I think that really justifies a lot of them.

I just can't wait to start playing with this dex so it is no longer theory hammer.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 16:50:26


Post by: Daedalus81


 JNAProductions wrote:
So, with that last post in mind...

How viable is a melee-heavy TSons list? I don't have the 'Dex, and may not get it (if it can't do what I want it to, not worth the $50) but what if you went heavy on Scarab Occult Terminators, maybe some Tzaangors for chaffy melee, some Maulerfiends... Obviously you'd have a decent shooting and psychic punch, but can you do work in CC?


It can work. People are a little too down on capabilities.

1x5 Spawn, 2x1 Spawn ( hold objectives after Tzaangors do actions ), 1x10 Tzaangors, 1x20 Tzaangors, Mutalith, and Heldrake ( all that is only 681 ) supported by some Rubrics, Scarabs, and HQs. The Tzaangors will help keep casters safe as well.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 16:58:01


Post by: Eldenfirefly


drakerocket wrote:
Really quite disappointed in the no tanzgors in rhinos thing. I feel the 10 in a rhino would have been a deeply solid backbone for the army.

That being said, I still think they have a reasonable place. A tzaangor bomb of 20 + shaman is still a good DMC target. Tossing it up turn one with a brayhorn and throwing down weaver on it stands a decent charge chance and will be irritating as heck for many opponents to screen. It isn't that many points and if it gets the charge off will eat a lot of screening units, leaving the opponents very vulnerable to psychic powers, since screens are a vital defense. You can also string them for big time move-blocking. 8 in rerollable is a little less than 70%~. There aren't a ton of guns that love shooting into T4 4++

In general I think tzaangors mostly suffer from mobility which rhinos would have solved. They aren't amazing in melee, but they are totally enough to kill what you need them to. 10 unsupported do well into a squad of wyches, into a unit of sisters, kill any generic small objective holder. They don't do the best into intercessors, but they will steal a point from them on the charge (kill 1 intercessor on the charge, lose 3 gors to the crack back, 7 vs 4).

I think it is definitely worth looking at forgeworld options. We have good buffs for volcoms (for shooting they hardcore outdo hellbrutes) and even fire raptors feel like a reasonable consideration.

I agree on feeling luke warm on rubrics. I really want to like them, but AP-2 shooting just doesn't feel great. They feel just on the cusp; if they were just a bit cheaper, if all is dust had gotten some kind of meaningful improvement...heck even if the aspiring sorc got a full bolter I'd feel better.

The flamer might have some play; having run sisters ret squads with heavy flamers, they felt very strong. You're trading +2 strength (which can be buffed) for -1 AP. No max shots strat but you're on a much tougher platform and you have obsec, plus of course the psychic power. Probably reasonable for the 25 extra points. I think 2-3 squads in rhinos moving up the board have legit play; it notably ticks up their output (roughly 100% increase before buffs) and, perhaps just as important, provides a strong defense against charges which is a vulnerability of theirs. That squad now kills roughly 4 intercessors between psychic and shooting if you give them a start or psychic buff, which isn't bad for 125 points. I think they're probably the best thing in a rhino we can do.


Actually, when I think more about it, a unit of 5 chaos spawn will benefit more from that weaver of fates and dark matter crystal technique. Now you suddenly get a 20W unit that has T5 and a 4++ save. Yeet that into the face of armies and it will take some time to chew through that. And it cost less than a squad of 20 Tzaangors too... 5 spawn only cost 115 points.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 17:05:35


Post by: Daedalus81


I'm sure most people are aware, but our reach is a fair bit shorter on spells. All of our mind bullets are 18" or less save for Desecration. We might find that dropping cabal points on +6" will be the most common use turns 1 and 2.

You will get into combat earlier than you might intend. Bring goats.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 17:16:41


Post by: yukishiro1


People are down on that because none of that really does any significant damage for the points except the 5 man spawn unit.

The only efficient melee stuff in the book is the spawn, with helbrutes and maulers being maybe like B tier melee at a stretch against elite profiles.

I just noticed spawn lost their hateful assault too but the only compensation was going from 1d6 to 2d3 on base attacks. So they've actually gone down by about ~.5 attacks per model, not up like I initially thought. Sad days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:


Actually, when I think more about it, a unit of 5 chaos spawn will benefit more from that weaver of fates and dark matter crystal technique. Now you suddenly get a 20W unit that has T5 and a 4++ save. Yeet that into the face of armies and it will take some time to chew through that. And it cost less than a squad of 20 Tzaangors too... 5 spawn only cost 115 points.


Spawn can't use crystal, it's infantry only (if you don't use it on the bearer), not that you would probably want to crystal them anyway given how bad their chances of making the charge are. They can be warptimed, though, which will generally be the delivery strategy after giving them the 4++. Even with the minor nerf I noted above, it's still the only thing in the book that actually qualifies as any kind of melee threat that can trade in a points efficient way.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 17:26:52


Post by: Daedalus81


yukishiro1 wrote:
People are down on that because none of that really does any significant damage for the points except the 5 man spawn unit.

The only efficient melee stuff in the book is the spawn, with helbrutes and maulers being maybe like B tier melee at a stretch against elite profiles.

I just noticed spawn lost their hateful assault too but the only compensation was going from 1d6 to 2d3 on base attacks. So they've actually gone down by about ~.5 attacks per model, not up like I initially thought. Sad days.


Well, it becomes a symbiotic thing. Tzaangors aren't a blender, but when they tie up units while you fling mortal wounds into them it can hurt.

On Spawn you had a reroll with fated, so an average of 4.17 to 4.25 ( depending if you reroll 3s or not ) + 1. Now we average 4 + 1. Picking for more attacks used to be +2 and now is +D3. It isn't really a terrible difference especially now that we can give them a 4++. That and new spawn won't fall on their face if you don't have the CP to spend.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 17:43:35


Post by: yukishiro1


Yeah it's only a small nerf offensively, but it is a nerf. Still far and away the best unit in the book for trading.

On cults, I'm having a hard time looking past prophecy, a miracle dice (though you can't use it for saves or damage rolls, boo) you can use *after* the roll is a ridiculously powerful effect, even if you only get one per turn and there's a decent chance of it turning out to be a dud - though if you really want to you could take an infernal master, and use his reroll to reroll your prophecy dice if you come up with a 2 or something. The warlord trait is the best in the book too IMO, and the relic actually has potential when used to buff a multi-melta helbrute, that can get good use out of the three rerolls in each phase.

Time, Scheming, Duplicity look good too, and Manipulation has an incredibly strong psychic power, though the rest of it is garbage, meaning it might be worth it for a patrol just to get access to the power.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 18:28:44


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Hmm, warptimed Chaos Spawn sounds even better than using the dark matter crystal on them. Chaos Spawn are literally the only unit I really want to fling into combat. (Outside of maybe Tzaangors). The only other things I might want to throw into melee in a Tsons army would be Magnus, Hellbrute and Defiler. But as a throwaway or trading unit? Chaos Spawn is the best choice.

Ok, maybe Occult Terminators too. But those are definitely not throwaway and I definitely wouldn't want to throw them into melee if its a bad trade.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 18:53:01


Post by: BoomWolf


Well, scarabs are practically a dual unit
Gun down the choppy, chop down the shooty.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 19:17:29


Post by: yukishiro1


Scarabs seem good, but they pretty much require giving up on while we stand since they clock in at a minimum 200, they need to be really doing stuff at close range, and if they are, they're going to die. I guess you could try to make a while we stand list work that takes one 5 man and just keeps it in reserves till T3 then puts it down somewhere where it can either survive to the end of the game, or take SO much fire with the 1CP for -1D that it doesn't feel like a huge loss of the 5 points. The 400 point unit will survive if you play cagey with it, but it's also 400 points that won't be doing anything because you need to play cagey with it, so I'm not sure that's a great idea.

The TS secondaries are all situationally powerful, but none of them are things you can really build around - though you can build to take one of either Mutate Landscape or Psychic Ritual, depending on the map and opponent, thanks to the 8 cabal point ability to make a psychic action undeniable. Wrath of Magnus will be great in probably 90% of the matches you are eligible to take it, but that's still going to be less than half of games total, so having the ability to choose while we stand instead seems really valuable.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 19:30:54


Post by: drakerocket


I don't think we're an amazing force for while we stand. Everything we have needs to be up close to function and therefore vulnerable.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 19:43:29


Post by: yukishiro1


I dunno, I don't think it's hard to play carefully with Ahriman and an upgraded Exalted on Disc if you build it so they're two of the highest points; they both have good movement, fly, and character protection, and you don't lose a lot by not being in melee. It's the third one that's the issue. I guess you could take a second Exalted on Disc, one with the extra cast and the other with the extra relic upgrades, and really double down on keeping your characters alive. Not sure how fun a game that'd be though, especially if your opponent takes abhor and then the whole game just comes down to cat and mouse.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 19:51:41


Post by: Daedalus81


Anyone pondering putting a relic on a unit champ?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 19:56:06


Post by: Grotrebel


For me what hurts most is the loss of 24" smites. 18" vs. 24" is a huge difference, and while 9th mission design will get you enough units midfield to smite at, i will miss those extra 6" we could keep between us and the enemy units. Also makes it a bit harder to smite with characters hiding behind our other units if you want to keep distance. :/


On the other hand i love the cabal point mechanic which will be quite handy.
With 7 CP we get a "free" super smite with Pact from beyond if you cast 7+ smites total, which got a lot more probable & reliable with Ahriman / Magnus rerolls, the overall +1 and the extra +1 / +2 from CP.

Overall TS will do more MW`s but at closer range. Too bad there is not much we can do about the cc abilities of Rubric Marines, only sneaky stuff like porting out of cc and shoot the melee units, but 5 Scarabs instead of 5 Rubrics might become the better way to march up the midfield.
Will still prefer 2 x 5 Rubrics as backfield campers, because with Icons they could get you up to 4 CP a turn. 250 is pricey for 10 marines but they are kinda tanky, will provide some dakka and you still get 2 casts.

Very cool we get the Soulreaper cannon back for squads of 5, gonna take them all the time if i have a few spare points.
Gonna need to put 1 or 2 icons on my soulreaper dudes though.^^

134 for 5 flamers is kinda ok, enough for putting them in strategic reserve or jumping them and clear some cheap campers from an objective.


Infernal master will be an auto-take for me every game. Glimpse of eternity is just damn good.




Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 20:08:39


Post by: yukishiro1


Do people think you still have to pay the CP for the extra relic from Dilettante? I.e. does the 35 points just let you double up, or does it give you the relic too?

My read is the latter, because if all it did was allow you to take a second relic on a model that already has one while still having to pay the CP for it, there wouldn't be any reason to word it how it does re: "even if the model already has a relic," it would just say "this model is eligible to take two relics" or something like that.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 20:24:04


Post by: Daedalus81


yukishiro1 wrote:
Do people think you still have to pay the CP for the extra relic from Dilettante? I.e. does the 35 points just let you double up, or does it give you the relic too?

My read is the latter, because if all it did was allow you to take a second relic on a model that already has one while still having to pay the CP for it, there wouldn't be any reason to word it how it does re: "even if the model already has a relic," it would just say "this model is eligible to take two relics" or something like that.


The strat says "you cannot use this stratagem to give a model two relics" and Dilettante, to me, seems to indicate that it grants you the relic at time of purchase. 35 points is more than the rough cost of a CP so it seems more than fair.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 21:00:46


Post by: Arachnofiend


drakerocket wrote:
I don't think we're an amazing force for while we stand. Everything we have needs to be up close to function and therefore vulnerable.

Been tinkering with a Tzeentch soup list that runs Magnus with Belakor and the Exalted LoC, think that's a better solution for While We Stand. Granted I'm not terribly confident in the efficacy of that list but I just really want to find a way to run Magnus and the LoC together.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 21:16:49


Post by: yukishiro1


 Daedalus81 wrote:


The strat says "you cannot use this stratagem to give a model two relics" and Dilettante, to me, seems to indicate that it grants you the relic at time of purchase. 35 points is more than the rough cost of a CP so it seems more than fair.


Well it's 35 points not just for a relic but also for being able to double up. But I agree, that's how I'm going to play it unless there's a FAQ that says otherwise.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 22:38:42


Post by: drakerocket


Re: Magnus LoC etc.

I don't think bash brothers works well in the current meta and less so now than before. Mag's spells are locked now, he can't even warptime himself and he's squishier.

I'm actually pretty disappointed in him. Vahl, Mortarian and the Silent King have all felt like really good balance points. They're not auto-takes (vahl might be the closest, but she really isn't) and yet they're all legit competitive.

Magnus does not feel that way. He feels like a major liability; he's probably half as tough as mortarian, can't be character blocked like vahl, can't even be terrain blocked like the SK. He's not even really an amazing force multipulier. You could make him 50 points cheaper than he is now and I doubt he'd be an auto-take.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 22:48:52


Post by: yukishiro1


Yeah Magnus is really hard to use now, he's so vulnerable to getting blown up and doesn't have the mobility or the range any more to stay out of trouble. He got nerfed from pretty much all angles, and the end package doesn't look very good.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/09 23:54:28


Post by: whembly


I think the bash brothers ideas won't work well in this competitive meta either.

However, what about Magnus and Friends?

I'm pretty sure this is under 2000pts:
TS Aux
-Magnus

Daemon Battalion
-Be'lakor
-Exalted LoC

-10x Brimestones
-3x Nurglings
-3x Nurglings

-9x Flamers (for that cheeky ds and strategem to cause mortals on 6s)

DG Supreme

-Morty

Not sure how competitive, but 4 absolute monsters your opponents has to contend with.

Most armies can drop one big guy in 1st turn, and if so, they'll get the remaining 3 bastards on their backline by turn 2. Potentially to overmatch your opponents.

Thoughts?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 00:00:56


Post by: Azuza001


 whembly wrote:
I think the bash brothers ideas won't work well in this competitive meta either.

However, what about Magnus and Friends?

I'm pretty sure this is under 2000pts:
TS Aux
-Magnus

Daemon Battalion
-Be'lakor
-Exalted LoC

-10x Brimestones
-3x Nurglings
-3x Nurglings

-9x Flamers (for that cheeky ds and strategem to cause mortals on 6s)

DG Supreme

-Morty

Not sure how competitive, but 4 absolute monsters your opponents has to contend with.

Most armies can drop one big guy in 1st turn, and if so, they'll get the remaining 3 bastards on their backline by turn 2. Potentially to overmatch your opponents.

Thoughts?


I think any force able to easily deal with knights would have no issues with this type of force. Sure you have massive amounts of psycic output but your ranged output is almost none and an enemy that can easily play keep away like Harliquins or Dark Eldar would just kill whatever they felt like first and not let your big guys get near them until they wanted to be that close.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 00:09:56


Post by: xeen


I agree with Magnus being a points sink. Quite frankly knowing all the spells is only so useful when he can only cast 3. The +3 is good for getting super smite etc., but with cabal point etc., I think you can basically get the same casting rate out of Ahriman, who is less than half the price. Yes Magnus has the super smite, but that is one spell that can be cast once on one unit, and it is still the closest unit, so it is not like you can go after specific targets with it. That is combined with him being less durable. I would probably not even take him if he was 350 points to be honest. Also, why can't he take one Cult WL trait? Morty gets 4 traits, 3 locked in then he gets to pick one from their sub-factions. If you could give Magnus the no-reroll trait he would be much better at surviving (probably still not worth 450). Also they should have just given him a 3++. I mean I know they are moving away from that, but if any unit in the game deserves it, it would be him.

The only other couple of things I am see that are a bit upsetting are the no Tgors in Rhinos (maybe that was an oversight and it will get FAQ hopefully), and the 5++ part of the detachment bonus is a bit let down. Other than CSM vehicles, every unit already had 5++ in the old book, and so really it is a trait that really only affected like 5 data sheets. So we really only have one detachment bonus +1 to cast, however that one is really good.

I also think in relation to above, the brotherhood of sorcerers should have language that it is a 5++, unless you are in terminator armor then it is a 4++. If the SoT had a 4++ I think they would be perfect.

However on a more positive note, here are some things I have been thinking about. I am not saying these will be competitive or even good, just worth a think:

The Infernal Master's +1 Strength to shooting is "Thousand Son unit" so will work on Leviathan Dread. That will make duel Storm Auto Cannons (or whatever they are called) 20 shots at S8, -1ap and D2. That is pretty tasty.

Hellbrute with two fists and two inferno combi-bolters in fists is 125 I think. That is a pretty good melee unit except against hoards, but carries 8 inferno bolter shots at half range. And can fire them into combat if necessary.

I am in agreement with most people that MSU is probably best in the new book, however one big squad of SoT might work. It is a good place to put buffs, and if you use Time Cult and the coalescence legion command (that heals wounded models in the command phase to full each command phase) it could get good. Every time you cast the Time Cult spell with 9 or more, spend 1 CP and then you are bring back two SoT a turn and they are fully healed each turn. With Cabal points should be pretty doable. Also you can get more out of the soul sweep strat if facing hoards with the 2 soul reapers.

As I said before I also think a large squad of flamer Rubrics using either Duplicity, the Dark Matter Crystal (or whatever it is now) or warptime might also be a good investment for a unit to take advantage of multiple buffs then get a good 8d6 flame shots off in turn one.

Again I can't wait to play.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 00:16:23


Post by: whembly


Azuza001 wrote:
Spoiler:
 whembly wrote:
I think the bash brothers ideas won't work well in this competitive meta either.

However, what about Magnus and Friends?

I'm pretty sure this is under 2000pts:
TS Aux
-Magnus

Daemon Battalion
-Be'lakor
-Exalted LoC

-10x Brimestones
-3x Nurglings
-3x Nurglings

-9x Flamers (for that cheeky ds and strategem to cause mortals on 6s)

DG Supreme

-Morty

Not sure how competitive, but 4 absolute monsters your opponents has to contend with.

Most armies can drop one big guy in 1st turn, and if so, they'll get the remaining 3 bastards on their backline by turn 2. Potentially to overmatch your opponents.

Thoughts?


I think any force able to easily deal with knights would have no issues with this type of force. Sure you have massive amounts of psycic output but your ranged output is almost none and an enemy that can easily play keep away like Harliquins or Dark Eldar would just kill whatever they felt like first and not let your big guys get near them until they wanted to be that close.

You're probably right.

Going first though really makes it not like Knights armies though as Morty/Magnus can get up his -1 to hit powers, Be'lakor has native -1 to hit/wound and Exalted LoC can choose to get -1 to hit exalted powers. LoC will have 3++ and Magnus can get 4++. Can Knights get that up consistently? (Rotate Shields CP?).

The other thing I've never seen, is a all close combat Knight Armies. I've seen 1 and rare 2 Knights are kitted for massed close combat. The 4 demon bashers job's is engage the enemy. The only list I'd fear is the standard kabal DE shooty list.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 00:34:28


Post by: Eldenfirefly


About Magnus, actually, he didn't have the -1 damage previously right? Isn't that pretty good? He lost the 3++ invul. But he is running around with default 4++, -1 damage now right?

Someone should do the math and see if 4++ with -1 damage is worse or as good as 3++. I think it sort of a wash. Magnus is one of the few units in Tsons which is not only fast, (relatively hard to kill), and hits really hard in melee. He has 8 attacks now! I would run him in an aggressive Tsons list.

Like, fly him up one flank, warptime 5 chaos spawn unit with 4++ up with him, and also place a 10 man Scarab terminator unit via strategem in the midboard near him on turn one. Then really smash that flank hard.

I am starting to think if we want to be more aggressive with a Tsons list, a flying Daemon Prince may be sort of the goto. A DP in any form hits hard. It can't solo a flank. But we can warptime a unit of 5 Spawn up with it, and we can maybe run up two Maulerfiends too. That sounds like a suitable hammer. And unlike Magnus, a DP can't be targeted because it can benefit from look out sir.

So, use strategem to start a 10 man obsec terminator in the midboard (behind obscuring terrain), and turn 1, run up 2 mauler fiends, warp time up a 5man Chaos spawn, and fly up the DP.

Turn 1, our opponent gets hit hard by psykic from the Occults Termies, the DP, then shot up by the Occults, plus whatever else long range shooting we have, and then he has 20W of 4++ spawn, two 12W maulerfiends, 30W of Occults Terminators and a untargetable flying DP in his face. And all these are pretty good at fighting. Together, they should be able to take down almost anything they hit in one flank. Most of the charging would only happen on turn 2 though. But I imagine between the shooting and psychic, and given so many wounds concentrated in this group, there should be enough left to charge in and fight on turn 2. The whole group probably cost close to 1000 points, but hey, if you want to make a hammer, going half measures isn't going to cut it.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 01:18:35


Post by: drakerocket


Magnus + 10 occult termies +5 chaos spawn....sooo...half your army? Magnus will die turn one, along with either all of your chaos spawn or half of your termies. Not much left to hold the flank. 8 attacks? So like, the same as a succubus or a squig boss? If you wanna be really sad, compare it to either the new orc squig boss or a tricked out succubus.

I'm sorry, I love him too, but he fails on pretty much all fronts. His casting is good, but it isn't as good as 1 exalted sorc + ahirman (...which comes in at 60% of his points and is character blocked), his durability is kinda trash and his melee is...good for a 200 point model maybe? I think my initial evaluation of 'he needs to be 50 points less' was probably an overvaluation of his abilities.

That being said, in the realm of zany big things, a 360 point fire raptor looks kinda...nutty good for absorbing buffs? It loves the 5++, loves the 4++ even more and is an outstanding target for the -1 ap strat, +1 strength infernal pact and presage. That is hardly an unrealistic buff set up and results in.....(assuming a reroll aura range which seems pretty likely)

10 strength 7 ap -3 D2 shots
8 strength 8 ap -2 D2 shots
4 strength 10 ap -4 d6 shots
Hitting on 2s rerolling 1s...

That is 2.5 dead raiders, 3 dead las chickens, 13 dead intercessors, 18 wounds off of a knight.

Durability wise some armies will be able to take it down, but its range and mobility protect it pretty well against multi-meltas, and -1 to hit 5++ 18 wounds is well...about as good as magnus! =D (would be a great candidate for weaver as well) But 100 points less and faaar faster and more murderous. Some armies just won't be able to deal either. 5 dark lance raiders average 5 wounds on it, even 6 laz chickens (probably the best profile to shoot it) only manage 11 or 12.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 01:56:14


Post by: Daedalus81


 xeen wrote:
The Infernal Master's +1 Strength to shooting is "Thousand Son unit" so will work on Leviathan Dread. That will make duel Storm Auto Cannons (or whatever they are called) 20 shots at S8, -1ap and D2. That is pretty tasty.


I've been on the lookout for similar weapons, but that one sounds like the best so far.

Hellbrute with two fists and two inferno combi-bolters in fists is 125 I think. That is a pretty good melee unit except against hoards, but carries 8 inferno bolter shots at half range. And can fire them into combat if necessary.


I would almost think it'd be better to go fist and MM just to have some more ranged presence, which you can also fire into combat anyway.

I am in agreement with most people that MSU is probably best in the new book, however one big squad of SoT might work. It is a good place to put buffs, and if you use Time Cult and the coalescence legion command (that heals wounded models in the command phase to full each command phase) it could get good. Every time you cast the Time Cult spell with 9 or more, spend 1 CP and then you are bring back two SoT a turn and they are fully healed each turn. With Cabal points should be pretty doable. Also you can get more out of the soul sweep strat if facing hoards with the 2 soul reapers.


Similar thoughts here again. I'm trying to think of how to take advantage of this for WWSWF as well.

As I said before I also think a large squad of flamer Rubrics using either Duplicity, the Dark Matter Crystal (or whatever it is now) or warptime might also be a good investment for a unit to take advantage of multiple buffs then get a good 8d6 flame shots off in turn one.

Again I can't wait to play.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
About Magnus, actually, he didn't have the -1 damage previously right? Isn't that pretty good? He lost the 3++ invul. But he is running around with default 4++, -1 damage now right?

Someone should do the math and see if 4++ with -1 damage is worse or as good as 3++. I think it sort of a wash. Magnus is one of the few units in Tsons which is not only fast, (relatively hard to kill), and hits really hard in melee. He has 8 attacks now! I would run him in an aggressive Tsons list.

Like, fly him up one flank, warptime 5 chaos spawn unit with 4++ up with him, and also place a 10 man Scarab terminator unit via strategem in the midboard near him on turn one. Then really smash that flank hard.

I am starting to think if we want to be more aggressive with a Tsons list, a flying Daemon Prince may be sort of the goto. A DP in any form hits hard. It can't solo a flank. But we can warptime a unit of 5 Spawn up with it, and we can maybe run up two Maulerfiends too. That sounds like a suitable hammer. And unlike Magnus, a DP can't be targeted because it can benefit from look out sir.

So, use strategem to start a 10 man obsec terminator in the midboard (behind obscuring terrain), and turn 1, run up 2 mauler fiends, warp time up a 5man Chaos spawn, and fly up the DP.

Turn 1, our opponent gets hit hard by psykic from the Occults Termies, the DP, then shot up by the Occults, plus whatever else long range shooting we have, and then he has 20W of 4++ spawn, two 12W maulerfiends, 30W of Occults Terminators and a untargetable flying DP in his face. And all these are pretty good at fighting. Together, they should be able to take down almost anything they hit in one flank. Most of the charging would only happen on turn 2 though. But I imagine between the shooting and psychic, and given so many wounds concentrated in this group, there should be enough left to charge in and fight on turn 2. The whole group probably cost close to 1000 points, but hey, if you want to make a hammer, going half measures isn't going to cut it.


-1D on Magnus is nice, but he dies to plink pretty easily. Vanguard will jump up and use enriched rounds for 11 or so wounds. Then the chickens will go for him -- if you roll below average saves he's dead. If you go first -1 will be on so odds are a little better.

The bigger problem with strategies like these is that your only plan is to just go get in their face and kill. That doesn't work so well in 9th. You need a solid path for primaries and secondaries - especially when your assault falls on it's face.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 02:28:09


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Well, hmmm yeah. Like I said earlier... Tsons isn't really built as melee specialists... Its tough trying to make an aggressive melee list work for Tsons.

I thought of a safer strategy. We can have two or three units of 5 chaos spawn and send them up in waves each turn with the 4++ save and warptime.

So, imagine we have 3 units of 5 chaos spawn. This is actually quite cheap. Its only 345 points in total. So, first turn, hide two units, weaver of fates and warptime the first unit up into opponent's face.

Turn 2, do the same thing to the second unit.

Turn 3, do the same thing to the third unit.

And of course, the rest of our army is steadily marching up the field, casting psychic and shooting. So at some point, turn 2 or turn 3, the chaos spawn will be joined with the rest of our army.

So, every turn, our opponent will have to deal with 20W 4++ spawn which are actually decent in combat. While being shot at and smited. And even if they wipe out the spawn each turn, its a 115 point unit. No big deal. And its a chore to kill a 20W T5 4++ unit. Imagine having to do it for three turns, while having your army shot at and smited.

And given we can warp time, if our opponent gives up the midboard, we can then take it with our army moving up, and then leapfrog our chaos spawn directly into their deployment zone.

This is sort of similar to a strategy I saw in a CSM slaanash possessed army that sent out wave after wave of 20 possessed. except we will have far more shooting and psychic than that army and we lose a lot less when they kill a unit of 5 spawn compared to losing a unit of 20 possessed. Its also alot easier to hide 5 spawn behind obscuring terrain strategically until we are ready to waver of fates and warptime them up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a seperate thing, which is better? A tooled up castor flying DP or Ahriman on a disk ? The DP is tougher, and can fight better, and can have warlord traits and relics to make him probably as strong a psyker as Ahriman.

But Ahriman has 3 cast to the DP's two. So, I guess the question here is, is that 1 more cast worth losing the additional utility the flying DP has. Because both are quite close in points I believe.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 02:59:08


Post by: yukishiro1


Ahriman is by far the best HQ in the book, it's not a question of him or somebody else, it's a question of who you take *with* him. I cannot imagine any list that doesn't include him, being able to reroll psychic tests natively is just so powerful, especially with the +1. Nothing else in the book (besides Magnus) comes close to Ahriman's psychic prowess.

Personally I think an Exalted Sorc is better than a Daemon Prince in this book, but I can see arguments for the Prince too.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 03:11:20


Post by: Eldenfirefly


yukishiro1 wrote:
Ahriman is by far the best HQ in the book, it's not a question of him or somebody else, it's a question of who you take *with* him. I cannot imagine any list that doesn't include him, being able to reroll psychic tests natively is just so powerful, especially with the +1. Nothing else in the book (besides Magnus) comes close to Ahriman's psychic prowess.

Personally I think an Exalted Sorc is better than a Daemon Prince in this book, but I can see arguments for the Prince too.


Isn't there a new warlord trait called Seeker of shadows? It lets you roll 3d6 and drop the lowest when doing psychic test. I think the ability to spike high and do super smites is even higher if you take this warlord trait. Cult of magic has a warlord trait for rerolling psychic on smites and witchfire as well. We can bring infernal master and get a reroll of one dice anyway. I feel that rerolling a psychic is usually used only when you roll low and fail a psychic test. It isn't meant for fishing for super smites. But rolling 3d6, discard the lowest dice. And combine that with cabal points that can let you add 2 to a psychic test. That could easily get you into super smite territory. You only need a 8 to get to 11 with that. And getting an 8 with 3d6 discard the lowest seems very doable.

Personally, I wouldn't waste the Cabal Points to make a psychic undeniable. I would rather just cast it at so high a value its highly unlikely opponent can deny it.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 03:13:14


Post by: JNAProductions


Eldenfirefly wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Ahriman is by far the best HQ in the book, it's not a question of him or somebody else, it's a question of who you take *with* him. I cannot imagine any list that doesn't include him, being able to reroll psychic tests natively is just so powerful, especially with the +1. Nothing else in the book (besides Magnus) comes close to Ahriman's psychic prowess.

Personally I think an Exalted Sorc is better than a Daemon Prince in this book, but I can see arguments for the Prince too.


Isn't there a new warlord trait called Seeker of shadows? It lets you roll 3d6 and drop the lowest when doing psychic test. I think the ability to spike high and do super smites is even higher if you take this warlord trait. Cult of magic has a warlord trait for rerolling psychic on smites and witchfire as well. We can bring infernal master and get a reroll of one dice anyway. I feel that rerolling a psychic is usually used only when you roll low and fail a psychic test. It isn't meant for fishing for super smites. But rolling 3d6, discard the lowest dice. And combine that with cabal points that can let you add 2 to a psychic test. That could easily get you into super smite territory. You only need a 8 to get to 11 with that. And getting an 8 with 3d6 discard the lowest seems very doable.
8+ on 3d6b2 is just over 68% chance.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 03:17:13


Post by: Eldenfirefly


68% chance to cast a supersmite is pretty good isn't it? Even with total reroll that Ahriman gives, the chances of getting a super smite on a +1 is probably lower because you need to get a 10, even with that reroll. Ah wait, you can use cabal points to boost that by 2 as well. So what's the chance of rolling a 8 with a 2d6 full reroll ?

I went and did the math myself. With a full reroll, Ahriman has a 65.97% chance of getting a 8 or higher on 2d6 full reroll. Its lower than the 68% chance the seeker of shadows warlord has.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 03:17:51


Post by: H.B.M.C.


yukishiro1 wrote:
Ahriman is by far the best HQ in the book, it's not a question of him or somebody else, it's a question of who you take *with* him.
Unless you, y'know, don't want to take him. Or don't like special characters. Or just don't like Ahriman.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 03:24:56


Post by: JNAProductions


Eldenfirefly wrote:
68% chance to cast a supersmite is pretty good isn't it? Even with total reroll that Ahriman gives, the chances of getting a super smite on a +1 is probably lower because you need to get a 10, even with that reroll. Ah wait, you can use cabal points to boost that by 2 as well. So what's the chance of rolling a 8 with a 2d6 full reroll ?
8+ on 2d6 is a 41.67% chance.

So if you reroll 7 or less, you get a 66% chance of 8+.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 03:28:41


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 JNAProductions wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
68% chance to cast a supersmite is pretty good isn't it? Even with total reroll that Ahriman gives, the chances of getting a super smite on a +1 is probably lower because you need to get a 10, even with that reroll. Ah wait, you can use cabal points to boost that by 2 as well. So what's the chance of rolling a 8 with a 2d6 full reroll ?
8+ on 2d6 is a 41.67% chance.

So if you reroll 7 or less, you get a 66% chance of 8+.


Yup, I just did the math myself too. So a seeker of shadow warlord is actually a better castor than Ahriman. plus if its that crucial a psychic, then I would happily just pay the CP to reroll 3d6 and discard the lowest one more time. And don't forget, we have our infernal master infernal pact which can give us a d6 reroll on almost anything, including one of the dice of a psychic test.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 03:34:36


Post by: xeen


Seeker of shadow is only psychic actions not tests. Ahriman is still awesome. I am actually going to take a break from him in lists just because I have used him in like every list back to 6th. Lol.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 03:37:07


Post by: yukishiro1


I went through that same thing several pages ago re: seekers of shadow. It's only psychic actions, not tests. If it was tests, it would indeed be crazy good, but it isn't. Meaning Ahriman is still far and away the best caster in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Ahriman is by far the best HQ in the book, it's not a question of him or somebody else, it's a question of who you take *with* him.
Unless you, y'know, don't want to take him. Or don't like special characters. Or just don't like Ahriman.


Well of course. But we're talking about what's the best here, and Ahriman is clearly it. Some things never change, I guess.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 03:39:58


Post by: xeen


Also just so everyone knows what I did was watch the spures and brews video review on my phone. He flips the pages pretty clearly and with the iPhone I just snapped a screen shot. It actually worked pretty good. I don’t think I am allow to post them here. Also I am not going to play with them I just could not wait for my dex to arrive and wanted the full rules to look at now.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 03:58:34


Post by: drakerocket


I think the sorc vs demon prince is kind of a weird argument. They serve different roles. The DP is best kitted out with a sword, the plate relic and undying form. At that point he is tougher than and his about as hard as a helbrute that everyone seems to like and has 2 psychic powers and gives rerolls and cabal points. I think it's probably fine to skip wings; he works better as counter-charge.

I'm probably going to usually run infernal/DP/Ahriman. I also kinda like the shaman, less as a main caster and more as a zoomy way to get psychic secondaries done. Wish he could warptime himself =/ (though he can with a relic I suppose).

I tend to think you're going to want 12 or so casts per turn. The above. 3 units of rubrics and 2 units of termies does that pretty well. Feels like a good core.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 04:15:15


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 xeen wrote:
Seeker of shadow is only psychic actions not tests. Ahriman is still awesome. I am actually going to take a break from him in lists just because I have used him in like every list back to 6th. Lol.


What its only psychic actions? ... zzzz.... disappointed..


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 04:31:53


Post by: yukishiro1


Yeah, shaman not having access to discipline of vengeance makes him kinda limited.

People like the helbrute because it has a MM as well as fighting decently. The DP costs more, doesn't have a MM, and doesn't survive well without the investment of 2CP worth of warlord traits/relics. And even with that, it's still going to die pretty easily if it's in a place where it can be shot on its own, so it needs to have something protecting it. It's in that weird place where it really needs to be fighting and getting hit to justify its higher cost over the exalted sorc...but if it is, it's probably dying. And it's in a book that in general doesn't want to be getting stuck in. I don't think it's terrible, I think you just really need a plan for how to use it so it doesn't just end up being a more expensive, clunkier Exalted Sorc.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 04:39:05


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Well, although TS generally doesn't want to get stuck in. But there may be situations when the opponent seeks us out in combat. Or maybe there is that one squad left hiding behind obscuring terrain on an objective. So, I can see the DP coming into some play.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 05:16:26


Post by: H.B.M.C.


yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, shaman not having access to discipline of vengeance makes him kinda limited.
Yeah... threads like this remind me that I'm wired differently.

I want to take a Tzaangor Shaman because I think he looks cool and I love the model...


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 05:19:03


Post by: yukishiro1


Doing stuff because it's cool is totally fine. But this is a tactics thread, so it's probably normal to expect people to talk about tactics, not what they think looks cool.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 05:21:25


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Yeah but there's an element of "X is slightly better than Y, so Y is dead to me!" rather than any attempt to try to find a role for Y.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 05:37:14


Post by: Azuza001


H.B.M.C., your not wrong, and I think our favorite goat boy on disk has a good use in this army.

1. He is the cheapest chr we have.
2. He is a psyker so he can do psycic actions.
3. He can buff tzaangors up to hitting on 3's.
4. He is incredibly fast for his cost.
5. He is in the elite section, not hq, so he isn't taking up a contested slot.

I plan on running one seriously with my chaos Spawn. His job will be to give them their 4++ save and if that's no longer needed he can always do psycic actions or grab table quarters for engage on all fronts or any other number of things.

Also there is the relic you can give him to know another spell and it can be from either table. That and the great sorcerer strat for 1cp to let him cast twice...

I think he is a very good utility pick that has potential to surprise people for 70pts.


Edit :

I also should point out that even though this is a tactics thread it is perfectly reasonable for someone to come into it looking for ways to make the model they love more viable. Looking at units from the perspective of "OK, this guy isn't the best at this, but what can he offer my army..." is a perfectly reasonable way of looking at things.

Using the Shaman example, he isnt going to beat an Exalted Sorcerer in spell casting/cabal points generated/damage output potential/or army boosting abilities (reroll 1's aura vs tzaangors +1 to hit). But I don't see it as a fair comparison, as mentioned above the shaman isn't trying to take that roll. He has a different agenda in the army.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 06:38:43


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Hmm, I just realised. Warpflamers are now 12 inches. You can come in from reserve with a full warpflame kitted out rubric squad and barbecue the heck out of an enemy unit at 12 inches.

Or you could warptime or dark matter crystal a squad of rubrics into within flame range and just let loose. Sounds pretty tasty!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I feel that 9th edition is about board control. I was thinking about how a Tsons army can exert such board control given we don't really want to get into melee and our terminators are movement 5. This was what I came up with.

We put a 10 man rubric squad forward of our deployment during deployment behind obscuring terrain, somewhere close but not in the midboard, and make sure to keep it still out of charge range. Our characters are on disks. with a big bloc of 10 occult terminators behind obscuring on turn 1.

We put another 10 man rubric squad with flamers into reserve with webway infiltration.

When we get to move on turn 1.

Move up the 10 man rubric which was already in a forward position. They should be now within smite range and inferno bolter range too (hopefully double tap range even). Use dark matter crystal to teleport up the 10 man terminator block to the midfield where they got lots of targets for their guns and smite. Our characters now have a 10 man rubric plus a 10 man terminator block they can fly advance move up to and then let loose with their psychic.

Run up a 5 man spawn and then warptime it for a 14 inch movement foward. If we don't plan to charge anything, advance it for a further d6 as well.

Now we have a pretty decent chunk of our army that was previously behind obscuring now suddenly somewhere near the midfield and hopefully within range to smite and shoot. Plus it clears some space in the midboard for the 10 man rubric in the webway to come down on turn 2 and absolutely barbecue something.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 08:08:50


Post by: Kebabcito


Volkite with -1 AP +1 S reroll cuz core

5x3 termis

rubric in rhinos

Ahriman, DP and sorcerers


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 08:56:37


Post by: Yoyoyo


Seeker of Shadows, no. But Athenaen Scrolls lets you take a psychic test on a 3D6, game-long, for one power.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 10:15:58


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Can I check with those who have seen the book? Not quite sure about this. Can we take a relic on a Champion for 1CP ? And what are the relics we can take? Because Death Guard had this in its codex.

Would love to take Helm of the third eye on a champion if possible. If not then dark matter crystal. One of these two.

I am looking at a list with only two Tsons characters, of which one is Ahriman. So, I am kinda thin on characters to hold relics...


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 12:51:55


Post by: EightFoldPath


Aspiring Sorceres in Rubric/Scarab units can take relics, but they are limited to the 1 pistol and 3 staff relics.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 13:28:14


Post by: Grotrebel


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
Ahriman is by far the best HQ in the book, it's not a question of him or somebody else, it's a question of who you take *with* him.
Unless you, y'know, don't want to take him. Or don't like special characters. Or just don't like Ahriman.


Wait - thats heresy!
Ahriman did nothing wrong.


Aspiring Sorceres in Rubric/Scarab units can take relics, but they are limited to the 1 pistol and 3 staff relics.

All of them are rather unspectacular as well, won't use them a lot if at all. :(


Btw Magnus needed a 12 for his super Smite before, which was essentially a 10+, now he just needs a 11+ what comes to a 8+ considering his +3. Not bad, especially when he auto-casts smiles and can reroll anything under 8 if he does one of the first smites.

With all the buffs on casting we get now (CP +1, CP +2, CP autocast, reroll with Magnus / Ahriman, full smites for Aspiring Sorcerers, +1 for all casts and some smite related buffs Smite-spam seems quite doable now.


Gonna have my first TS game today, plan was:

Magnus, Ahriman, 2 Princes, Exalted on disc
3 x 5 Bolter Rubrics, 1 x 5 Flamer Rubrics
10 Scarabs

That's 22 CP for my first turn, but not sure if I want to go Time Cult for tankyness or duplicity for flexibility.
Cult of Magic seems kinda pointless, now that devastating sorcery got nerfed and Astral blast has less range.
Might go for two cults with 2 detachments, basic idea was to spam as many MW as possible and hope I don't loose too many models.
Will go against necrons.

Hope my poor boy Magnus will survive long enough to matter. ^^
Think I'm gonna infiltrate the flamer Rubrics and depending on my opponents dakka keep Magnus in reserve.

Oh and I'm gonna use Mutate Landscape for sure! Looks like a pretty solid bet with Risen Rubricae / webway/ Sourcerous Facade to get easy 9-12 points with a good chance to max out.
Also it can still be combined with raise the banners which will give you easy 20-30 points for those 2 Secondaries with the right deployment.




Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 13:35:50


Post by: Sasori


Yoyoyo wrote:
Seeker of Shadows, no. But Athenaen Scrolls lets you take a psychic test on a 3D6, game-long, for one power.


The scrolls seems like a great combo with Firestorm to get that unmodified 9+


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 14:33:14


Post by: shogun


 Grotrebel wrote:


Gonna have my first TS game today, plan was:

Magnus, Ahriman, 2 Princes, Exalted on disc.....


I believe you can only take one prince, right?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 15:23:50


Post by: xeen


shogun wrote:
 Grotrebel wrote:


Gonna have my first TS game today, plan was:

Magnus, Ahriman, 2 Princes, Exalted on disc.....


I believe you can only take one prince, right?


Can can only take one per detachment correct. But if you take two detachments you can take two

On another note, compare Magnus to Bel'Lakor. Same movement (Fly), WS BS Str, T, and 4++, Bel has 2 less attacks, but has a sweep for more against hoards, and his big swing ignores invul and is more powerful then Magnus. He has 2 less wounds, but that is actually an advantage as that is not much more survivability but allows him to actually hide behind Obscuring Terrain. He is also a psyker, with two casts. Finally he has the -1 and no re-roll to hit, -1 to wound and -1 leadership to enemies. Magnus has one additional cast (knows all the powers, but I don't find that super useful), +2 to cast (+3 with the legion trait), the super smite (useful once against closest unit), -1 damage, re-roll deny, and the cabal stuff for synergy. Both have re-roll 1's aura, but Magnus gets one command re-roll all hits ability.

Neither have shooting. So Magnus is a better caster and that is about it. Bel'Lakor is better at close combat by a mile and SOOOOOO much more survivable. And his casting is not really that much lower than Magnus. Yet he is 90! points cheaper!

I hate to really be piling it on on Magnus (I think this is like my third post disparaging him) but I just can't wrap my head around how anyone can think he is remotely worth 450 points. If he was 360 (same as Bel'Lakor) I think there would be an argument for him. Also what would be really awesome is an FAQ reducing his wounds to 16 so he can hide (I know they are not going to do that, lol).

I would love to see any people who use him put their experience here so we can get some in game data. I won't be able to play for like a month, so hopefully others will get some good games in and get some experience will all of the ideas tossed around on this thread.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 15:48:33


Post by: Daedalus81


Eldenfirefly wrote:
68% chance to cast a supersmite is pretty good isn't it?


Is super smite more valuable than Baleful or Firestorm ( Magnus aside )? A D6 is pretty swingy. I'd rather go fishing on Baleful or Firestorm.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 15:51:26


Post by: JNAProductions


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
68% chance to cast a supersmite is pretty good isn't it?


Is super smite more valuable than Baleful or Firestorm ( Magnus aside )? A D6 is pretty swingy. I'd rather go fishing on Baleful or Firestorm.
Can you still CP a Smite damage roll? That would up its reliability a lot.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 15:53:10


Post by: Daedalus81


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
68% chance to cast a supersmite is pretty good isn't it?


Is super smite more valuable than Baleful or Firestorm ( Magnus aside )? A D6 is pretty swingy. I'd rather go fishing on Baleful or Firestorm.
Can you still CP a Smite damage roll? That would up its reliability a lot.


You know...I'm not actually sure. Does it count as a damage roll?

Though even if you can the other spells gives more freedom of targeting.

What's the odds of 5MW on 5+ for 9 dice? That'd snipe a lot of characters.





Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 16:14:24


Post by: Azuza001


You can not reroll a smite output roll with a cp. Smite is rolling for a number of mortal wounds, not a damage roll.

The 10 man rubric with flamers has potential to be interesting, thats for sure.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 16:20:00


Post by: Daedalus81


Azuza001 wrote:
The 10 man rubric with flamers has potential to be interesting, thats for sure.


Interesting, but expensive. My army might go with 5 mans with Warpflamer Pistol, Warpflamer, Soul Reaper, 2 ICBs.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 16:44:07


Post by: Twilight Pathways


I think Magnus can get +6 to cast? He gets +2 for being him, +1 for being Thousand Sons. You can spend 9 Cabal Points to give him another +2. But he has Arrogance of Aeons warlord trait, meaning you can use 2 Cabbalistic Rituals on him, so if you really wanted you could spend another 5 Cabal Points for another +1. I doubt you'd ever actually need the +6 but it could be handy in case you roll crap both times. He can super-smite on a 5

Perhaps a good use of this is for pushing up the test result for Baleful Devolution? With his casting reroll and the option to reroll just one of the dice thanks to the Infernal Master, you can be looking at essentially another Magnus super-smite against big units. If Baleful Devolution didn't require the target unit to have 6+ models it would be a truly terrifying power.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 17:14:19


Post by: Daedalus81


Spoiler:
 xeen wrote:
shogun wrote:
 Grotrebel wrote:


Gonna have my first TS game today, plan was:

Magnus, Ahriman, 2 Princes, Exalted on disc.....


I believe you can only take one prince, right?


Can can only take one per detachment correct. But if you take two detachments you can take two

On another note, compare Magnus to Bel'Lakor. Same movement (Fly), WS BS Str, T, and 4++, Bel has 2 less attacks, but has a sweep for more against hoards, and his big swing ignores invul and is more powerful then Magnus. He has 2 less wounds, but that is actually an advantage as that is not much more survivability but allows him to actually hide behind Obscuring Terrain. He is also a psyker, with two casts. Finally he has the -1 and no re-roll to hit, -1 to wound and -1 leadership to enemies. Magnus has one additional cast (knows all the powers, but I don't find that super useful), +2 to cast (+3 with the legion trait), the super smite (useful once against closest unit), -1 damage, re-roll deny, and the cabal stuff for synergy. Both have re-roll 1's aura, but Magnus gets one command re-roll all hits ability.

Neither have shooting. So Magnus is a better caster and that is about it. Bel'Lakor is better at close combat by a mile and SOOOOOO much more survivable. And his casting is not really that much lower than Magnus. Yet he is 90! points cheaper!

I hate to really be piling it on on Magnus (I think this is like my third post disparaging him) but I just can't wrap my head around how anyone can think he is remotely worth 450 points. If he was 360 (same as Bel'Lakor) I think there would be an argument for him. Also what would be really awesome is an FAQ reducing his wounds to 16 so he can hide (I know they are not going to do that, lol).

I would love to see any people who use him put their experience here so we can get some in game data. I won't be able to play for like a month, so hopefully others will get some good games in and get some experience will all of the ideas tossed around on this thread.


Magnus does have a 3+ as opposed to BK's 6+ so AP0 is a little more gentle.

BK might be durable, but he's as unreliable a caster as a Tzaangor Shaman ( no offense to Tzaangor Shamans ) as well as only cast two / deny 1. Magnus is S16 where BK is 12, so where Knights are concerned Magnus wins, because his staff will add another D3 MW at end of phase. BK will only otherwise benefit from D3+3 against W4 models -- anything else Magnus cracks in one round. BK also has little chance of opening a Raider with spells and then charging the occupants where Magnus can easily.

Knowing 18 spells with full rerolls on all casting, denies, with a +3, and no perils is bigly 'uge. One should also always expect to be spending 2 CP every turn to give him a fourth cast and D3 heal. In total Magnus should regain 4 wounds a turn.

If Magnus gets super smite with the cabal +D3 MW he'll do 4D3 - up to 12MW in a single spell - that's almost enough to wipe BK off the table just by looking at him ( obviously an average of 8, which is half ).

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but BK is M12 not M16.

All that said - expect him to die occasionally if you put him on the table turn 1. He's otherwise going to suck all the air out of the room for your opponent and you can try to use that to your advantage.





Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 18:54:37


Post by: Kharne the Befriender


I'm going to run a 2k test list to get the feel for a few things, hopefully it doesn't look too bad:

Battalion (2000 - 7 CP)- Cult of Duplicity

Secondaries: Either Psychic Ritual and Burn Empires, or Mutate Landscape and Raise the Banners. Unsure about the 3rd, either a kill obj or while we stand since my most expensive models will be my exalteds and either a contemptor or the sorcerer.

Spoiler:

HQ- Exalted Sorcerer A (WL)- 140
-Dilettante (+1 Relic), R: Warp Weave Mantle, R: Helm of the Daemons Eye, WL Trait: Undying Form
-Powers: Presage, Twist of Fate

HQ- Exalted Sorcerer B (1CP WLT/ 1CP Relic)- 130
-Rehati (+1 Extra Cast), R: Athanaean Scrolls, WL Trait: Lord of Forbidden Knowledge
-Powers: Glamour of Tzeentch, Baleful Devolution, Desecration of Worlds

HQ- Sorcerer (1CP WLT/ 1CP Relic)- 90
-Loyal Thrall, R: Perfidious Tome, WL Trait: Seeker after Shadows
-Powers: Doombolt, Weaver of Fates

HQ- Infernal Master- 90
-Pacts: Capering Imps, Malefic Maelstrom
-Power: Swelled by the Warp (Might replace with Gaze of Hate)

Troop- 10x Rubricae A - 250
-Ardent Autamata, Icon of Flame, Soulreaper Cannon
-Power: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Troop- 10x Rubricae B - 230
-Icon of Flame, Soulreaper Cannon
-Power: Perplex

Troop- 10x Rubricae C - 283
-Icon of Flame, Soulreaper Cannon, 8x Warpflamers, Hand Warpflamer
-Power: Pyric Flux

Elite- 5x Scarab Occult (1CP Relic)- 205
-Heavy Warpflamer, R: Incandaeum
-Power: Cacodaemonic Curse

Elite- 10x Scarab Occult- 425
-Rites of Coalescence, 2x Soulreaper Cannons
-Power: Empyric Guidance


This list actually comes out to 1858 leaving me with 142pts to spend, I can either do a contempter or 20 Tzaangors for back field screening/objectives.

The general strat is for the Infernal Master to run with Exalted Sorc A behind the 10x Scarab Occult either up mid or towards an obj. The first time the IM fails a pact I'll use the autopass strat to put a MW on the exalted to give him the +1 from his relic.

The warpflamer squad will either Webway or Risen Rubricae depending on situation while the 5x Scarab Occult deepstrike and roast something

Exalted B goes with Rubricae squad B to layout some pain and hold an obj.

The sorcerer goes with Squad A for normal and psychic actions on obj's.


Any thoughts or CC would be helpful, thanks


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 19:22:57


Post by: Azuza001


Well you have bodies, psycic, and hoard issues under control but a few things to consier....

1. If I was playing that list my 2ndaries are already picked for me. No prisoners, assassinate, and abhor the witch. Just by playing 8th ed style against it you will get hurt.
2. Your anti tank is basically smite. So a few russes or a knight or even some predators will be able to have a field day. Not to mention admech vehicles or the like.

I am not sure what you would do to counter these issues. On the 1 hand knowing what your opponent is probably picking as secondaries could be seen as a positive if your able to manipulate that.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 19:31:09


Post by: Daedalus81


The general strat is for the Infernal Master to run with Exalted Sorc A behind the 10x Scarab Occult either up mid or towards an obj. The first time the IM fails a pact I'll use the autopass strat to put a MW on the exalted to give him the +1 from his relic.


Clever. I like that.

This list actually comes out to 1858 leaving me with 142pts to spend, I can either do a contempter or 20 Tzaangors for back field screening/objectives.


I would suggest 2x2 or 2x3 spawn. They're quite hard to kill from behind obscuring. Rukkatrukks might give them a run for their money though.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 20:36:15


Post by: Kharne the Befriender


Azuza001 wrote:Well you have bodies, psycic, and hoard issues under control but a few things to consier....

1. If I was playing that list my 2ndaries are already picked for me. No prisoners, assassinate, and abhor the witch. Just by playing 8th ed style against it you will get hurt.
2. Your anti tank is basically smite. So a few russes or a knight or even some predators will be able to have a field day. Not to mention admech vehicles or the like.

I am not sure what you would do to counter these issues. On the 1 hand knowing what your opponent is probably picking as secondaries could be seen as a positive if your able to manipulate that.


So I would probably want an AT contemptor then? Or would you suggest a change to the list?

Daedalus81 wrote:
The general strat is for the Infernal Master to run with Exalted Sorc A behind the 10x Scarab Occult either up mid or towards an obj. The first time the IM fails a pact I'll use the autopass strat to put a MW on the exalted to give him the +1 from his relic.


Clever. I like that.

This list actually comes out to 1858 leaving me with 142pts to spend, I can either do a contempter or 20 Tzaangors for back field screening/objectives.


I would suggest 2x2 or 2x3 spawn. They're quite hard to kill from behind obscuring. Rukkatrukks might give them a run for their money though.



I wish I had Spawn, I've a kitbashed one named Klondike but nothing else I could use as Spawn. Are they really that good? Could they be used to potentially tie down vehicles?

It seems my main problem is AT, which given the list seems a decent problem. I could try to rely on +1S/+1 to Wound warpflamers but that seems unlikely, and tying them up seems it could backfire


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 20:50:09


Post by: Arachnofiend


Azuza001 wrote:
Well you have bodies, psycic, and hoard issues under control but a few things to consier....

1. If I was playing that list my 2ndaries are already picked for me. No prisoners, assassinate, and abhor the witch. Just by playing 8th ed style against it you will get hurt.

Another reason to go mechanized I guess? Bring It Down is in the same category as Assassinate so you won't give up as many points just by getting killed. Abhor being in Warpcraft is always gonna be an issue for us.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 21:34:42


Post by: Azuza001


You could take a forgefiend with double ectoplasma, it gives you 2d3 str 7 ap-3 3dmg flat blast shots. Then there is the infernal master slapping it with his prayer to get it to str 8, and if you just have to do it spend the cp to put it at ap-4. That could be decent antitank for 140pts. If your able to find a 15 more pts he can take a 3rd cannon for 3d3 shots.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 22:09:22


Post by: drakerocket


Man I wish daemon engines were core =(


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/10 22:30:42


Post by: Daedalus81


 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

I wish I had Spawn, I've a kitbashed one named Klondike but nothing else I could use as Spawn. Are they really that good? Could they be used to potentially tie down vehicles?

It seems my main problem is AT, which given the list seems a decent problem. I could try to rely on +1S/+1 to Wound warpflamers but that seems unlikely, and tying them up seems it could backfire


A big supported unit of spawn with 4++ can and they can pop some vehicles with a little luck. There's cheapo spawn model options out there. The 2x2 spawn option would be units to hold your backfield objectives. You wouldn't buff them. Just hide them and use them to fight off deepstrikers.

Stuff like laser chickens will either shoot scarabs or spawn. In the case of spawn they die slower ( assuming 4++ ) and they're only 23 points.

In general you may find the 10 man units make you less flexible so having more drops and more coverage can help.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 00:03:20


Post by: Kharne the Befriender


So, if I were to drop one of the rubricae squads to a 5 man,, that frees up 105pts, leaving me with 247pts.

247 pts is exactly what a triple plasma fiend and 4 Spawn would cost, so I could run 2 squads of 2, and not lose out on powers or cabal points

I'll try that


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 00:07:31


Post by: Eldenfirefly


On the subject of anti tank. Do you guys think just two Vindicators is enough for anti tank. That plus the hellfire racks from occult terminators. We can use the d6 from the infernal master to reroll the number of shots on one of the vehicles as well. And then use 1 CP to reroll the number of shots for the other Vindicator.

Two T8 vehicles with 5++ invul should stick around for a while. If they spike a high number of shots, they can do serious damage to other vehicles. As long as they attract anti-tank fire, that will reduce the AT shots going into our terminators.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 00:41:39


Post by: Daedalus81


Eldenfirefly wrote:
On the subject of anti tank. Do you guys think just two Vindicators is enough for anti tank. That plus the hellfire racks from occult terminators. We can use the d6 from the infernal master to reroll the number of shots on one of the vehicles as well. And then use 1 CP to reroll the number of shots for the other Vindicator.

Two T8 vehicles with 5++ invul should stick around for a while. If they spike a high number of shots, they can do serious damage to other vehicles. As long as they attract anti-tank fire, that will reduce the AT shots going into our terminators.


Yea they're pretty great. Stick them with a combi-melta and havoc launcher and they help cover lots of problems. They're awesome at killing gravis and hordes as well - Vanguard, too when they don't have the anti-blast rule.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 01:12:35


Post by: Yoyoyo


Tanks also have the Smokescreen keyword, I don’t think that’s available to Helbrutes or Daemon Engines.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 01:19:00


Post by: Grotrebel


Quite happy with my first game with the new Codex today.

Magnus, Ahriman, 2 Princes, Exalted
3 x 5 Rubrics + 1 x 5 Flamer Rubrics + 10 Scarabs
All time cult for tankyness, against cc heavy necrons with some dakka.

To be fair MW is quite good against Necrons and oh boy, have I spammed those today.


Game was basically over turn 2 and we called it a day turn 3.


My takes from that game:

I love that new super Smite of Magnus. At first I was sceptical, but you will get it off a lot more often with 8+ instead of 10+ and the 3D3 is very reliable. I popped the Malevolent Charge cabalistic ritual on him every turn and 4D3 MW is really good.
He supercharged Firestorm twice as well and could cast it twice with psychic Maelstrom.
(Gave the Scarabs Maelstrom as well.)
Magnus alone did a whooping 15-20 MW each turn, what a beast.

My order for psychic powers was
1. Buffs (Glamour, Weaver, Presage all from Ahriman)
2. Situational stuff (Temporal Surge, Swelled, Empric Guidance, Pyric Flux)

If needed I used Ahrimans rerolls or +1 /+2 ritual, in the end I got all of them casts every turn.
3. After that I pumped all of the remaining 20 CP in maxing out Mortal wounds and getting supercharged Smites, Firestorms and Baleful Devolution.

It worked like a charm and my necron buddy was not amused about getting those MW's handed by the bucket.


But the loss on some ranges, especially Smite was really something to plan around. Before it was quite easy to advance & smite + keep your distance, got charged thrice but was worth it in the end.
Might become a problem in the future though, especially against more dangerous stuff.

Ahriman is an amazing support Caster now, 2 of our 4 buffs got easier to cast for him and rerolls + rituals on top? Hell yeah!


Scarabs were solid as well, used that -1 dmg strat in a key moment and had a 4++ on them all the time, now they feel proper tanky. (Will miss their 2++ / 3++ though, but I think 3 wounds will mitigate that somehow) Used the Soulreaper strat & +1 to wound strat on them to shred some Warriors and they killed some skorpeks in melee as well.


The MSU Rubrics held objectives, their 2 wounds felt really good, was about time. Got of some casts and did their job. Kinda missed that squad of 10 though, as Magnus had no real target for his full reroll buff because the Scarabs were 2+ anyway. Might try 10 + 5 + 5 next time.

5 flamer dudes in webway was more of a gimmic, even with pyric flux they did not fully get their points back - but only good target were T5 Immortals, will try them again.
Not sure about 10 flamers, they absolutely need to get a good target to be worth their points.
Could have saved 1 CP if I had put them just in strategic reserve instead, but I like the flexibility from webway.


Princes did what they did before, some casting, some melee and a failed charge after crystal jump.
Gonna need to squeeze in an Infernal Master for that sweet reroll, gonna miss gaze of fate, especially if you consider you will need 1-2 CP per game to pop the strat on his 3+ roll...


Overall the psychic phase felt a lot less random and more controlled with the rituals, as it should be with Thousand Sons.
Only real downsides for my are:
The loss of 24" smites and MW powers, now we have not even 1 of them left.
The hard nerf on devastating sorcery.
The restrictions on temporal surge.

Overall we got a lot more reliable & deadly, but on shorter distance.
I think souping might become a real option, as we can still cast somewhat reliable even without rituals.

Got lucky today, but it was a real close call with that few models. Not much to screen but honestly I don't want to get more Tzaangors, Cultists or Rhinos for that. Might be mandatory though, as it's really tough to keep your stuff safe. This will be a hard challenge for me to get a good balance from MSU squads and having some squads of 10 to get the most out of strategems and buffs.


I will definitely try to experiment with our Mortal wound output.
With rituals we can snipe characters on 18" quite good now.
Next game I will try to move up Ahriman or an exalted on disc with scrolls, cast Firestorm + Gaze, use Malevolent Charge on top and get 6 MW on average with supercharged firestorm (4,5 without). After that move back with temporal surge. Repeat the following turns.
Since you can advance and cast that's a thread range of 30" + W6"


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 01:43:27


Post by: xeen


Thanks for the great write up.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 02:02:07


Post by: Azuza001


Just so everyone is aware, you don't get +1 to invulnerable saves anymore vs dmg 1 weapons. It says armor saves now.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 02:05:44


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Grotrebel wrote:
Magnus alone did a whooping 15-20 MW each turn, what a beast.

... It worked like a charm and my necron buddy was not amused about getting those MW's handed by the bucket.
Sounds fun and interactive.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 02:21:40


Post by: yukishiro1


He kinda illustrates the problem with big models in this game. He's either going to wipe the floor with lists that can't kill him, or get deleted T1 (or after whenever you bring him in from SR after paying an arm and a leg in CP). It really exposes the limitations of the IGOUGO system.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 02:38:15


Post by: Daedalus81


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Grotrebel wrote:
Magnus alone did a whooping 15-20 MW each turn, what a beast.

... It worked like a charm and my necron buddy was not amused about getting those MW's handed by the bucket.
Sounds fun and interactive.


It's pretty much why I run Szarekhan with my crons - 5+++ and a dispel strat. Necrons shouldn't weep as the C'Tan dish it out just as much.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 02:57:48


Post by: xeen


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Grotrebel wrote:
Magnus alone did a whooping 15-20 MW each turn, what a beast.

... It worked like a charm and my necron buddy was not amused about getting those MW's handed by the bucket.
Sounds fun and interactive.


Yea cause 9 raider or like 12 las chicken spam is so fun and interactive.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 03:14:28


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 xeen wrote:
Yea cause 9 raider or like 12 las chicken spam is so fun and interactive.
If you want to fight straw men, do it elsewhere.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 03:14:29


Post by: Eldenfirefly


yukishiro1 wrote:
He kinda illustrates the problem with big models in this game. He's either going to wipe the floor with lists that can't kill him, or get deleted T1 (or after whenever you bring him in from SR after paying an arm and a leg in CP). It really exposes the limitations of the IGOUGO system.


Exactly. And Tsons has access to healing psychic as well. So, if you can't kill Magnus in one turn, there are ways to heal him. Not all lists are designed to kill a daemon primach with 18W, 4++ save and -1 dmg in one round. And he will do a ton of MW damage if you use him for that. Magnus can be pretty oppressive in a casual game.

I feel that using psykers like Ahriman and Magnus for normal spells instead of witchfire spells and super smites is a waste. Since even our regular psykers get a +1 to cast and have access to all of our disciplines. Our ability to throw out big Smites and witchfire spells are literally what separates us from other typical armies. I mean, sure there are tons of other spells in both disciplines which are very useful. But if we cannot reduce our opponent's army down with shooting and psychic MW, sooner or later, we are going to get whittled down ourselves no matter how many utility or defensive spells we cast.

That's why I feel that any defensive spells and utility spells should only come after we have pretty much cast whatever witchfire spells we can.


On a separate note. Every single TS vs GK battle report I have seen had the TSons getting stomped... Bad sign. But maybe its just that GK are just a bad matchup for Tsons...


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 07:48:36


Post by: Kebabcito


Magnus had to be 3++ against ranged weapons and 5++ melee, to force him cast and avoid rushes


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Magnus had to be 3++ against ranged weapons and 5++ melee, to force him cast and avoid rushes


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 07:57:13


Post by: Twilight Pathways


All of the healing stuff says 'a model can only be healed once per turn' so I think he can only ever be healed d3 per turn?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 09:17:31


Post by: Salt donkey


Eldenfirefly wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
He kinda illustrates the problem with big models in this game. He's either going to wipe the floor with lists that can't kill him, or get deleted T1 (or after whenever you bring him in from SR after paying an arm and a leg in CP). It really exposes the limitations of the IGOUGO system.


Exactly. And Tsons has access to healing psychic as well. So, if you can't kill Magnus in one turn, there are ways to heal him. Not all lists are designed to kill a daemon primach with 18W, 4++ save and -1 dmg in one round. And he will do a ton of MW damage if you use him for that. Magnus can be pretty oppressive in a casual game.

I feel that using psykers like Ahriman and Magnus for normal spells instead of witchfire spells and super smites is a waste. Since even our regular psykers get a +1 to cast and have access to all of our disciplines. Our ability to throw out big Smites and witchfire spells are literally what separates us from other typical armies. I mean, sure there are tons of other spells in both disciplines which are very useful. But if we cannot reduce our opponent's army down with shooting and psychic MW, sooner or later, we are going to get whittled down ourselves no matter how many utility or defensive spells we cast.

That's why I feel that any defensive spells and utility spells should only come after we have pretty much cast whatever witchfire spells we can.


On a separate note. Every single TS vs GK battle report I have seen had the TSons getting stomped... Bad sign. But maybe its just that GK are just a bad matchup for Tsons...


Grey knights might be a bad matchup due to good melee and the 5+++ against mortal wounds, but I doubt there are going to be many good matchups. Sisters have a bunch of 5+ and 6+ denies which don’t care about the extra casting value the +1 gives. Also they have plenty of chaff to take mortal wounds and have plenty of ways to dish pain back. DG don’t like the mortal wounds Tsons dish out, but like how close those sorcerers need to be in order to hit them with those mortal wounds. Orks have bodies and cheap wounds, and we don’t need to talk about DE and ad-mech. This army is weak as mono, make no mistake about it.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 11:20:24


Post by: Spreelock


I'm thinking that the thousand sons are in good position, playing objectives and mortal wound damage output. I've got a initial list, which I'd like to share and discuss, and maybe improve it.

Spoiler:

Thousand sons supreme command detachment
-low- Magnus the Red 450 (warlord)

Thousand sons battalion cult of time
-hq- infernal master 90 (relic: helm of daemons eye, pact: glimpse of eternity)
-hq- exalted sorcerer 100
-hq- exalted sorcerer 100
-troop- rubric marines (10, soulreaper, icon) 230
-troop- rubric marines (10, soulreaper, icon) 230
-troop- tzaangors (20, brayhorn, banner) 155
-elite- tzaangor shaman 70 (power: weaver of fates, relic: umbralefic crystal)
-elite- terminators (5, soulreaper, hellfyre) 215
-elite- terminators (5, soulreaper, hellfyre) 215
-heavy- mutalith vortex beast 145

Total 2000 / 11 (-1 for extra relic) cp / 19 cabal points


My battleplan is quite simple, playing for objectives and deal lots of damage from psychic. The rubric marines hold backfield objectives or move forward in flanks, supported by exalted sorcerer. Tzaangors are in the centre, supported by shaman, mutalith and infernal master. The terminators deep strike into objectives and Magnus the Red is clearing the table where needed.

I'm planning for secondaries; investigate signal (tzaangors), mutate landscape, and engage on all fronts.

I'm not sure about psychic powers yet, but the tzaangor shaman takes weaver of fates to buff saves of tzaangors. The infernal master has glimpse of eternity to bring extra reroll, which is very good. And I chose the cult of time for bringing back models from grave.
So, I'd like to hear your feedback about this, how to improve it and in case I'm missing something.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 11:25:27


Post by: the_scotsman


FWIW dumping mortal wounds on an ork boy is nearly as efficient as dumping mortal wounds on an intercessor at this point. And MWs are pretty decent against drukhari as well, no psychic defense and you bypass all those invulns and -1s to hit, most druk stuff is 10+ppw.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 11:39:24


Post by: KurtAngle2


 the_scotsman wrote:
FWIW dumping mortal wounds on an ork boy is nearly as efficient as dumping mortal wounds on an intercessor at this point. And MWs are pretty decent against drukhari as well, no psychic defense and you bypass all those invulns and -1s to hit, most druk stuff is 10+ppw.


MWs are not efficient against Drukhari Troops/Vehicles due to absurdly cost efficient ppw


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 11:49:47


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Bear in mind the psychic MW that Tsons army churn out is only one part of our total damage each round (although its an important part). Tsons can put out a fair amount of shooting, and a lot of it is at least -2 AP or more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Initially, I was leaning towards smaller MSU units. Now after watching some battle reports, and thinking about it more, I am not so sure.

Our rubrics and Occult terminators don't care about morale anyway, and they benefit from strategems and psychic more if its a big squad of ten. The only problem is that strategem unwavering Phalanx for the -1 damage that goes from 1 CP to 3CP for big squads. I feel that its better to bite the bullet and pay that 3CP and gain the benefits of having a big squad of ten.

So many things get so much better when we are dealing with big 10 man squads as compared to a small 5 man squad.

Also, I think warpflamers are almost a must for rubrics squads. They are too bad in combat. Overwatching with multiple warpflamers when an enemy unit is trying to charge your unit of Rubrics is going to be huge. I am not so much afraid that the Rubrics will get shot at, instead I am more concerned they get charged. Once they get charged and are stuck in combat, their damage plummets. There are spells that can get them out of combat. But in that case, warpflamers are even better. Because you take your pound of flesh when they charge in and then during your turn, you teleport them out of combat and flame some more.

The inferno boltgun is not a good weapon over 12 inches. Either you don't move and get 2 shots, or you move and get that 1 shot only. 9th edition is a game of mobility. The idea of standing still and having tons of targets to shoot at while achieving primary and secondary objectives is just impossible. And even at 2 shots per gun its nothing to write home about.

The warpflamer is a totally different story. Its range is 12 inches now. So, with a 6 inch move, that's 18 inches threat range. Also, more crucially, it protects Rubrics from being charged, which is their one very big weakness. A squad of Rubrics with warpflamers is a pretty scary unit to charge. You could take horrendous casualties charging in. 12 inches is also the range where most of our withfire psychic is within. So, Tsons Rubrics want to be in that range rather than standing at 24 inches plinking away with a few inferno bolt shots and not getting to cast smite at all.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 12:07:21


Post by: KurtAngle2


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Bear in mind the psychic MW that Tsons army churn out is only one part of our total damage each round (although its an important part). Tsons can put out a fair amount of shooting, and a lot of it is at least -2 AP or more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Initially, I was leaning towards smaller MSU units. Now after watching some battle reports, and thinking about it more, I am not so sure.

Our rubrics and Occult terminators don't care about morale anyway, and they benefit from strategems and psychic more if its a big squad of ten. The only problem is that strategem unwavering Phalanx for the -1 damage that goes from 1 CP to 3CP for big squads. I feel that its better to bite the bullet and pay that 3CP and gain the benefits of having a big squad of ten.

So many things get so much better when we are dealing with big 10 man squads as compared to a small 5 man squad.


- It's a bad source of damage all things considered: Marines can already shoot better than TS with the same APs on their standard guns (+doctrine) and nobody is playing Intercessor at all due to them being irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
- Morale is irrelevant on 5 models units anyway, only somewhat important for max sized ones but to get more benefits from both Strats and Psychics you're losing out on position versatility


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 12:41:17


Post by: the_scotsman


KurtAngle2 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
FWIW dumping mortal wounds on an ork boy is nearly as efficient as dumping mortal wounds on an intercessor at this point. And MWs are pretty decent against drukhari as well, no psychic defense and you bypass all those invulns and -1s to hit, most druk stuff is 10+ppw.


MWs are not efficient against Drukhari Troops/Vehicles due to absurdly cost efficient ppw


Raiders are 9.5ppw, wyches are 10ppw and Hellions are I think 9ppw? Not Necrons level amazing, but generally the ppw is about in line with marines. Certainly much better than MWs against Admech when it comes to the points you're taking off the board.

though I think our concentration of S4 Ap-2 d1 firepower suits us pretty well towards the admech matchup anyway.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 13:29:31


Post by: Daedalus81


Twilight Pathways wrote:
All of the healing stuff says 'a model can only be healed once per turn' so I think he can only ever be healed d3 per turn?


Temporal says that. The strat doesn't, but that's enough to block it. Oh well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Bear in mind the psychic MW that Tsons army churn out is only one part of our total damage each round (although its an important part). Tsons can put out a fair amount of shooting, and a lot of it is at least -2 AP or more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Initially, I was leaning towards smaller MSU units. Now after watching some battle reports, and thinking about it more, I am not so sure.

Our rubrics and Occult terminators don't care about morale anyway, and they benefit from strategems and psychic more if its a big squad of ten. The only problem is that strategem unwavering Phalanx for the -1 damage that goes from 1 CP to 3CP for big squads. I feel that its better to bite the bullet and pay that 3CP and gain the benefits of having a big squad of ten.

So many things get so much better when we are dealing with big 10 man squads as compared to a small 5 man squad.

Also, I think warpflamers are almost a must for rubrics squads. They are too bad in combat. Overwatching with multiple warpflamers when an enemy unit is trying to charge your unit of Rubrics is going to be huge. I am not so much afraid that the Rubrics will get shot at, instead I am more concerned they get charged. Once they get charged and are stuck in combat, their damage plummets. There are spells that can get them out of combat. But in that case, warpflamers are even better. Because you take your pound of flesh when they charge in and then during your turn, you teleport them out of combat and flame some more.

The inferno boltgun is not a good weapon over 12 inches. Either you don't move and get 2 shots, or you move and get that 1 shot only. 9th edition is a game of mobility. The idea of standing still and having tons of targets to shoot at while achieving primary and secondary objectives is just impossible. And even at 2 shots per gun its nothing to write home about.

The warpflamer is a totally different story. Its range is 12 inches now. So, with a 6 inch move, that's 18 inches threat range. Also, more crucially, it protects Rubrics from being charged, which is their one very big weakness. A squad of Rubrics with warpflamers is a pretty scary unit to charge. You could take horrendous casualties charging in. 12 inches is also the range where most of our withfire psychic is within. So, Tsons Rubrics want to be in that range rather than standing at 24 inches plinking away with a few inferno bolt shots and not getting to cast smite at all.


Not sold on spending 3CP for -1D. We're sooo relic heavy and if you want any CP left for overwatch it will be tough. Even with all the CP regen options we're limited to 1 per round.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
KurtAngle2 wrote:

- It's a bad source of damage all things considered: Marines can already shoot better than TS with the same APs on their standard guns (+doctrine) and nobody is playing Intercessor at all due to them being irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.


Marines are only AP2 once, generally and they don't have a soul reaper and/or warpflamers or methods to easily pump them against higher toughness. Augmenting a unit's ability is kind of our thing. One shouldn't lean into it too much, but it can still do work.





Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 15:01:40


Post by: Eldenfirefly


From what I see in several battle reports now. Once our troops die, our characters soon follow. Trying to win by playing with only characters is an uphill task. 3CP is very expensive... but if its to keep that Occult terminator squad that is protecting our characters alive, then I would still pay it.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 16:07:03


Post by: Daedalus81


Eldenfirefly wrote:
From what I see in several battle reports now. Once our troops die, our characters soon follow. Trying to win by playing only with only characters is an uphill task. 3CP is very expensive... but if its to keep that Occult terminator squad that is protecting our characters alive, then I would still pay it.


But that's only one side of the board. You're going to want tough vehicles and tzaangors to help block for sorcerers. And if you're facing an army with enough D2+ they'll bleed your CP fast and you miss out on extra casts, +1 to wound, model rez, etc.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 16:11:39


Post by: BoomWolf


The other answer is to have more dudes arond and not to go all-hog on HQs and upgrades for said HQs.


Though I must admit a Sicarian is very tempting. he's an excellent target for buffs, and with inbuilt 5++ he's not too fragile.
expensive as heck though.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 17:07:56


Post by: yukishiro1


Warpflamers are really not great IMO, especially on a big unit of 10. The charge deterrent is honestly minimal, it's a rare combat army that doesn't have a way around a single overwatching unit, whether it's a suppress overwatch ability, kool-aid manning through some nearby terrain, throwing in a single model or cheap screen to eat the overwatch, etc. The damage from rubrics is so marginal anyway that you honestly don't really care if they get tied up in combat, they're just going from doing almost no damage at range to almost no damage in melee (assuming they even survive, which they likely won't). Their function is to exist on the board, they're doing that no matter what they're armed with.

You're better off just taking min squads and writing them off if they get charged than spending points for a big squad of warpflamers hoping to get value from it, you very rarely will against stuff you aren't already winning more against.

The strength of this army is psychic, rubrics and scarabs are basically paying 30 points for the psyker; it's silly to dilute that value by taking bigger than MSU squads where you're paying through the nose for overvalued troops that are building in a several point premium per model for the psyker you're not getting.

I mean even if you want to compare psychic flamers to psychic flamers, compare rubrics with flamers to purgation squads with incinerators. A 5 man purgation squad with incinerators will run you 110 points. This nets you 4d6 S6 -1AP 1D flamer hits. Critically, they have built-in DS. Their spell allows them to ignore cover. Or you can give them psilencers instead, which lowers their output on base but allows you some truly horrific buff options, like making them shoot 24 S5 AP-2 D1 with +1 to damage shots on a unit a character debuffs. Or psicannons, which raises their points by 20 to 130, but gives you the potential for 12 S8 AP2 3D shots. They can even have the same 2CP vets option that the rubrics do at that point, since half range is 12" (15" with the tide). Critically, they have in-built DS. They even fight a little bit, with 4 attacks with a good melee weapon of your choice from the champion.

Now that's a unit you can actually trade with. Cheap enough that they aren't a big deal to lose, scary enough that your opponent has to think about them (especially if you take two, so then you've got similar firepower to the 10-man rubric squad, while retaining much better flexibility), and they're not paying a bunch of points for a defensive profile and obsec that you don't care about, or for not getting a psyker you're paying for in the base points cost.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 17:46:59


Post by: Daedalus81


yukishiro1 wrote:
Warpflamers are really not great IMO, especially on a big unit of 10. The charge deterrent is honestly minimal, it's a rare combat army that doesn't have a way around a single overwatching unit, whether it's a suppress overwatch ability, kool-aid manning through some nearby terrain, throwing in a single model or cheap screen to eat the overwatch, etc. The damage from rubrics is so marginal anyway that you honestly don't really care if they get tied up in combat, they're just going from doing almost no damage at range to almost no damage in melee (assuming they even survive, which they likely won't). Their function is to exist on the board, they're doing that no matter what they're armed with.

You're better off just taking min squads and writing them off if they get charged than spending points for a big squad of warpflamers hoping to get value from it, you very rarely will against stuff you aren't already winning more against.

The strength of this army is psychic, rubrics and scarabs are basically paying 30 points for the psyker; it's silly to dilute that value by taking bigger than MSU squads where you're paying through the nose for overvalued troops that are building in a several point premium per model for the psyker you're not getting.


I'm with you on the 5 mans and over-use of flamers, but I still think flamers have a place. Losing 1 to 2 bolter shots for 3 to 4 autohits when things get hairy is a decent trade. With a WF Pistol, WF, and Soul Reaper you're only really dropping one bolter.

Bolter - ( results are damage * 100 / model cost )

GEQ - 4.2
MEQ - 2.1 // Boyz take the same amount of damage as marines
DEQ - 1.4 ( DG Equivalent )

Warpflamer

GEQ - 8.6
MEQ - 4.3
DEQ - 2.9

Warpflamer is 2 times as strong as the Bolter at it's best profile.

Scenario : Fling a 5 man unit to do a psychic action and then shoot some 3+ Vanguard while using +1 to wound.

Bolters - 9 * .666 * .833 * .666 = 3.3

Flamers
14 * .833 * .666 = 7.8
3.5 * .666 * .666 = 1.6

A 5 man unit clearing almost half a unit of Vanguard seems like a worthwhile spend of 2 CP while exposing a very small unit to retribution. It is a cheap enough unit that they wouldn't likely use enriched rounds so a full 20 man VG squad does 3 or so wounds. That seems like a decent trade - they'll obviously take the unit down, but at a large expenditure of their remaining shooting.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 17:57:10


Post by: yukishiro1


They're better on a 5 man, that's for sure. Though that's still an expensive squad for what it does, that you need to spend resources to deliver. A 5 man is really starting to look like a bad purgation squad. But at least it's not so many points that it really matters if you don't have a good use for it and it just ends up camping an objective instead.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 18:25:34


Post by: Daedalus81


yukishiro1 wrote:
A 5 man is really starting to look like a bad purgation squad.


Well, I am willing to throw GK that bone.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 20:37:34


Post by: Mariongodspeed


I'm tempted to try an 8 man warpflamer, 1 soulreaper cannon, plus Aspiring Sorceror squad in a Cult of Duplicity detachment just to try the re-deepstrike spell out. Ordinarily id stick with 5-man squads, but a single 10 man squad full of flamers sounds too much fun to not atleast try it once.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 22:30:12


Post by: xeen


I think a 5 man Rubric Squad with 4 flamers has it place. It is only 129 points, which is only 14 points more than a min squad with a soulreaper. If you are using duplicity you can teleport them turn 1, or if not, have them use warptime (man I got to get on top of the name change at some point) to put them mid-field near an objective. Also they can advance and shoot so that is helpful to their speed. Flame something close by to try to do some wounds. Then the opponent has to do something about them, to at least push them off the objective, and hopefully they will absorb some shooting and maybe charges that would otherwise be directed at your more valuable units (like SoT). This is why I don't think the whole "gotta earn back your points" in damage is a great metric. Sometimes a unit is valuable because it is getting you VPs or disrupting the opponent regardless of its damage output. I mean this unit costs 6% of your total points, so using it as a distraction away from more important units not a bad way to use those points.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/11 23:44:12


Post by: Daedalus81


Here's my present plan.

Spoiler:


Cult of Duplicity

Infernal Master is the yeeter-in-chief. And you can yeet Mutaliths! Turn 1 it gets tossed out front. Turn 2 the flamer squad with it's own Pyric Flux gets tossed out. The IM moves into sniper / debuff mode with Psychic Stalk and his remove cover / reduce charging pacts. ( I may replace Psychic Stalk with Desecration here )

This detachment has my backfield objective holders. Always have redundancy, so, each objective will have a 10 man of Tzaangors and 1 spawn. Pretty solid for 103 points each.

Ahriman is the buffer-in-chief, so, he will monitor the spawn's ( from the other detachment ) advance with the 4++, extra move, and healing. He can help keep the Mutalith up if possible.

Cult of Time

Here I have Scarabs, because I love resurrecting them. They drop in with the Terminator Sorcerer who is suited up to kill. Since the Scarabs will be the closest drop unit they carry Perplex to shut down backfield threats from getting cross table fire. The Termie Sorc carries the WS/BS debuff relic so if I needed to shutdown a knight, I can. He'll also drop +1 to hit on the Scarabs and give himself a combat boost for 6 WS2 S9 attacks.

Basic Rubrics with Doombolt to reliably make people hurt - this spell is so good on them.

And then my boy - the Exalted. He has Athenean Scolls which will go on Firestorm or Baleful depending on the opponent. The 3D6 will help trigger his trait, which gives him a third undeniable casting, which will be the opposite spell on the scrolls and then he'll Smite. When prudent Baleful or Firestorm will get dropped for Desecration of Worlds. He also has the Warpweave for a little protection and since you can cause a unit an inch away to fail if they roll 9+ it seems potentially hilarious. If I can get him wounded by the IM I will do so.

And to round out the list I have a Twin Volk Contemptor, a Vindicator, and a Heldrake.

Secondaries

I believe I have good flexibility on choices for secondaries with many scoring units and Tzaangors for activations. I obviously give it up on Assassinate and Abhor. If I find that I lose my Exalted too easily I would consider switching the Mantle for the Hourglass.




Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 00:27:06


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I feel that a 10 Man Occult Termie squad gives us the kind of options that a 5 man squad doesn't.

Consider this:

5 man squad, we will slowly move them up the board at 5 inches per move and our characters are similarly stuck behind them, moving up the board 5 inches each turn. It will take us at least two turns, if not more to get up to a midfield objective. And like that, turn 1, our characters are likely out of smite range.

If its a 10 man Occult squad. Turn 1, dark matter crystal - bam! 10 man squad right up the midfield, likely on an objective. And then, fly + advance our characters on wings or a disk right up to them as well. A flying DP, Ahriman on a disk, and another exalted Rehati (cast 3 times) on a disk. Add the Occult Aspiring sorceror. Bam! That's 9 psychic casts we can use to throw witchfire at 12 to 18 inches away from our opponent.

We can dark matter crystal a 5 man squad of course. But when your occult terminators are protecting Ahriman, a DP and an exalted sorcerer... Do you want them to be protected by a 5 man or a 10 man? I would chose a 10 man any day of the week, and pay the extra 2 CP to make the Occults more durable.

But even a 30W unit with -1dmg, all is dust, a 4++ save, and a -1 to hit may not be enough. That's when I think about adding even more "abalative wounds" in the form of rubrics. Use Risen Rubricae strategem to position a unit of Rubrics behind obscuring terrain a bit forwards, now this unit can move into terrain and also shoot. Cast the cult of Duplicity spell "Sorcerer's Facade" to Yeet another 10 man Rubric Marine squad with warpflamers into BBQ range.

So now, on turn 1, we have not 30W but 70W worth of units that are near enough to the opponent they can use all of their guns to blast. And we have 3 Aspiring sorcerer's and another 3 characters within those units that cast throw out 11 witchfire casts.

This is a very nasty alpha strike. After being hit in the face by 20 MW from witchfire plus all the shooting from 40 warpflamers, 8 inferno combi bolters, and 2 soulreaper cannons and hellfire missile racks, will there still be much left standing within 12 to 18 inches?

After such a turn 1 alpha strike, we will be left holding most of the midfield, and we would have made a sizable dent into our enemy forces. I would gladly then pay the 3CP on the Occults to take whatever they want to shoot at the Occults (If they want to try, because there will also be Rubrics there as a target). This also puts us into an absolutely great position to move around, play the mission, and further stomp our opponent into the ground on turn 2. After this kind of turn 1, our opponent has to contend with 70W (All is dust, hard to kill) obsec in the midfield. (and this may not even be all of our army).

Also... all this is doable without having to risk that much. We can literally hide the 10 man occult far back safely behind obscuring terrain during deployment and same for the other 10 man Rubric flamer squad. This is because they are not moving into position, we are yeeting them into position with dark matter crystal and the duplicity spell.

Now, I can do the same exact thing with a 5 man squad of Occults and rubrics. But for this kind of strategy, why would I want to? Just to save 2 CP?




Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 02:24:24


Post by: Daedalus81


Spoiler:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
I feel that a 10 Man Occult Termie squad gives us the kind of options that a 5 man squad doesn't.

Consider this:

5 man squad, we will slowly move them up the board at 5 inches per move and our characters are similarly stuck behind them, moving up the board 5 inches each turn. It will take us at least two turns, if not more to get up to a midfield objective. And like that, turn 1, our characters are likely out of smite range.

If its a 10 man Occult squad. Turn 1, dark matter crystal - bam! 10 man squad right up the midfield, likely on an objective. And then, fly + advance our characters on wings or a disk right up to them as well. A flying DP, Ahriman on a disk, and another exalted Rehati (cast 3 times) on a disk. Add the Occult Aspiring sorceror. Bam! That's 9 psychic casts we can use to throw witchfire at 12 to 18 inches away from our opponent.

We can dark matter crystal a 5 man squad of course. But when your occult terminators are protecting Ahriman, a DP and an exalted sorcerer... Do you want them to be protected by a 5 man or a 10 man? I would chose a 10 man any day of the week, and pay the extra 2 CP to make the Occults more durable.

But even a 30W unit with -1dmg, all is dust, a 4++ save, and a -1 to hit may not be enough. That's when I think about adding even more "abalative wounds" in the form of rubrics. Use Risen Rubricae strategem to position a unit of Rubrics behind obscuring terrain a bit forwards, now this unit can move into terrain and also shoot. Cast the cult of Duplicity spell "Sorcerer's Facade" to Yeet another 10 man Rubric Marine squad with warpflamers into BBQ range.

So now, on turn 1, we have not 30W but 70W worth of units that are near enough to the opponent they can use all of their guns to blast. And we have 3 Aspiring sorcerer's and another 3 characters within those units that cast throw out 11 witchfire casts.

This is a very nasty alpha strike. After being hit in the face by 20 MW from witchfire plus all the shooting from 40 warpflamers, 8 inferno combi bolters, and 2 soulreaper cannons and hellfire missile racks, will there still be much left standing within 12 to 18 inches?

After such a turn 1 alpha strike, we will be left holding most of the midfield, and we would have made a sizable dent into our enemy forces. I would gladly then pay the 3CP on the Occults to take whatever they want to shoot at the Occults (If they want to try, because there will also be Rubrics there as a target). This also puts us into an absolutely great position to move around, play the mission, and further stomp our opponent into the ground on turn 2. After this kind of turn 1, our opponent has to contend with 70W (All is dust, hard to kill) obsec in the midfield. (and this may not even be all of our army).

Also... all this is doable without having to risk that much. We can literally hide the 10 man occult far back safely behind obscuring terrain during deployment and same for the other 10 man Rubric flamer squad. This is because they are not moving into position, we are yeeting them into position with dark matter crystal and the duplicity spell.

Now, I can do the same exact thing with a 5 man squad of Occults and rubrics. But for this kind of strategy, why would I want to? Just to save 2 CP?




It might work, but I feel like you're bunching up too much and you won't be able to hold much by turn 2. And your characters will be open from behind.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 02:29:34


Post by: Eldenfirefly


If the characters are on disk, they can fly advance 12+d6 inches. Should definitely bring them to within 3 inches of the bloc of 10 occult terminators for look out sir or bodyguard strategem. The two 10 man rubrics are set up from Risen rubricae or yeeted into position with the duplicity spell. They can be near the Occult Termies or anywhere else. Its actually really quite flexible.

Even if we keep them close to each other, there is no harm with that. The benefit of keeping them close enough to each other is that its this huge deathball in the middle of the board that projects death via MW and shooting in a 18 inch radius (which more or less covers the midfield). And the Occults can herotically intervene 2d6 inches via strategem. So anyone trying to charge the rubrics not only eats warpflamer death via overwatch, they also can get herotically intervened by 10 occult terminators with their new deadly Kopesh weapons.

This whole 10 man occult terminator, yeet and scout setup 20 rubric marines strategy can be set up as a beta strike as well if we want to wait until the opponent forces have made their first move. I think the whole Sheebag with 3 characters, 10 occults and 20 rubrics adds up to about 1400 points. So we still have 600 points to spend on other stuff.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 04:23:16


Post by: Daedalus81


I'm sure it will do work against most people. It's just that I find going deathball can limit you.

Maybe 10 man SoT will be required. Who knows.

11 days until my tournament at least.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 05:22:24


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Wow, I just read from Auspex tactics one of the new infernal pacts.

Malefic Maelstorm: 24 inches. One TS unit gets +1 str to its ranged attacks.

... when you cast that on a 10 man Occult terminator unit, suddenly, its splitting out 32 Str 5 AP2 inferno shots and 10 Str 7 Ap3 Soulreaper cannon shots...


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 05:41:42


Post by: BoomWolf


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Wow, I just read from Auspex tactics one of the new infernal pacts.

Malefic Maelstorm: 24 inches. One TS unit gets +1 str to its ranged attacks.

... when you cast that on a 10 man Occult terminator unit, suddenly, its splitting out 32 Str 5 AP2 inferno shots and 10 Str 7 Ap3 Soulreaper cannon shots...


Take it up to 11 with giving them a +1 to hit, +1 to wound and double soulreaper shots?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 07:16:51


Post by: Arachnofiend


 BoomWolf wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Wow, I just read from Auspex tactics one of the new infernal pacts.

Malefic Maelstorm: 24 inches. One TS unit gets +1 str to its ranged attacks.

... when you cast that on a 10 man Occult terminator unit, suddenly, its splitting out 32 Str 5 AP2 inferno shots and 10 Str 7 Ap3 Soulreaper cannon shots...


Take it up to 11 with giving them a +1 to hit, +1 to wound and double soulreaper shots?

You're gonna need a comically large basket for all those eggs.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 07:25:07


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Raising the Str by +1 is effectively a +1 to wound in many situations. Don't think its worth it to spend 2CP for another +1 to wound. How do we get +1 to hit though? I am curious. Is it a new strategem ?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 07:41:26


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Raising the Str by +1 is effectively a +1 to wound in many situations. Don't think its worth it to spend 2CP for another +1 to wound. How do we get +1 to hit though? I am curious. Is it a new strategem ?


Prescience/presage ? Also, isn't +2 forbidden anyway in 9th ?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 07:45:33


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Running an empty Rhino is interesting actually. After we have cleared out an immediate area of enemy units. A 5 man or 10 man Rubic unit with warpflamers can then jump into the Rhino and it can then zip forward 12 inches or even 12+d6 inches. We can also then use 1cp for warpflame gargoyles on the Rhino to do d3 MW around it on units on a 4+.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Raising the Str by +1 is effectively a +1 to wound in many situations. Don't think its worth it to spend 2CP for another +1 to wound. How do we get +1 to hit though? I am curious. Is it a new strategem ?


Prescience/presage ? Also, isn't +2 forbidden anyway in 9th ?


Ah, I forgot about Prescience!

Actually I think it does stack. The infernal pact raises the Str of the weapons, the strategem wrath of the wronged gives a +1 to wound. The two are two different things. Its just that wrath of the wronged at 2CP is a bit steep just for the +1 to wound.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 07:51:30


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Actually I think it does stack. The infernal pact raises the Str of the weapons, the strategem wrath of the wronged gives a +1 to wound. The two are two different things. Its just that wrath of the wronged at 2CP is a bit steep just for the +1 to wound.


Woah ! That's nice ! But as you said: for 2 CP it would for a surprise burst of damage or something like that.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 08:34:58


Post by: BoomWolf


Well, its not the "lets do this every turn" scenario of double-shots with +1 to wound for 2 cp while stationary we pulled off pre-codex, but i think wrath of the wronged will still have a place.

Sometimes that +1 to wound pushes something from doing heavy damage to taking out a key threat.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 10:12:32


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I am trying to decide which one is better for the infernal master. The pact Malefic Maelstorm or the pact Glimpse of Eternity.

Malefic Maelstorm is like a 2CP equivalent for buffing up the strength shooting attaks of a big bloc of Occult termies while Glimpse of Eternity is like the gaze of fate. A free reroll you keep in your pocket which is like having a free 1 CP reroll each turn.

I think Malefic Maelstorm is more worth it. Because its the equivalent of a wrath of the wronged which is 2CP. Whereas a free CP reroll is 1CP. Of course, the good thing is that the Infernal master can have two infernal pacts (though he can only cast one per turn). So I can have both known.

We don't really need much rerolls for psychic in the new Tsons now. We can only perils on a 12 because the +1 means we can't perils on a double 1. Plus we can just pay 1 CP to not perils anyway. And Ahriman rerolls all his failed psychic anyway. Plus we can also use CP to +1 to our cast, or +2 to our cast, or simply autocast. There really isn't much need to reroll any psychic.

Also, most of the psychic powers we have are very easily castable with the +1 to cast. I counted only 3 powers that have a WC of 8. And its easier to just use 7 cabal points to autocast a WC8 power.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 10:26:03


Post by: BoomWolf


Well, +1S and +1towound are very much not the same effect.

The infernal master knows two pacts and can only use one though, so I see no reason not to take both and then use the one that helps more that turn.


Also. +1 very much does NOT mean we do not peril on a double 1. its still a double 1 even if the result is a 3.


In other note, i vote to call the cabal points ritual points instead, so RP rather than CP, who is easily confused with command points.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 10:27:38


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 BoomWolf wrote:
Well, +1S and +1towound are very much not the same effect.

The infernal master knows two pacts and can only use one though, so I see no reason not to take both and then use the one that helps more that turn.


Also. +1 very much does NOT mean we do not peril on a double 1. its still a double 1 even if the result is a 3.


In other note, i vote to call the cabal points ritual points instead, so RP rather than CP, who is easily confused with command points.


Ah, sorry. I didn't realise. So a double 1 is still a perils. Ah well, we do have a 1 CP strategem to avoid perils. Given how many casts we do each turn, that will come in very handy.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 11:25:23


Post by: the_scotsman


yeah, I am also leaning towards 10 man SOT 5-man rubrics to have one concentrated power and strat-buffed unit in there. I love the fact that you can get 2 soulreapers in there and combo the stratagem, and handily my second SOT squad I magnetized the sorceror so his staff can be swapped out.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 13:40:51


Post by: Daedalus81


Quad Cast Exalted -

Rehati

Lord of the Forbidden Lore ( knows an extra spell )
Immaterial Echo ( undeniable cast if you cast something on a 9+ )

Chronos Tutorum ( + WL Trait )


He will know three spells plus smite and cult. You'll have to force a 9 with cabal abilities occasionally to trigger with Echo. No Scrolls possible, since you need two WL traits to get the spell and the trigger.

You can otherwise get three solid casts with this one and CP a fourth:

Dilettante

Lord of the Forbidden Lore ( knows an extra spell )
Immaterial Echo ( undeniable cast if you cast something on a 9+ )

Chronos Tutorum ( + WL Trait )
Athenaean Scrolls


I never thought I would consider taking 'knows an extra spell'.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 14:02:42


Post by: Mushkilla


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Quad Cast Exalted -

...

He will know three spells plus smite and cult. You'll have to force a 9 with cabal abilities occasionally to trigger with Echo. No Scrolls possible, since you need two WL traits to get the spell and the trigger.


Instead of the extra spell warlord trait. You could use the Unholy Sussurus stratagem to swap out the cult power for another spell. That way you get the 4 casts and you can take the scroll (or the relic that gives +1 to cast when you suffer a wound). So 4 casts at +2.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 14:04:19


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Hmm, why would you need the warlord trait to know an extra spell? Don't a Rehati Exalted Sorcerer already know 4 spells? 2 base plus one cult plus smite?

By the way, consider this MW exalted sorcerer.

Rehati Exalted Sorcerer (Cult of Magic).

Knows Doombolt, Tzeentch Firestorm, Arcane Blast, Smite. Can cast 3 times. Use CP to manifest one more power with the great sorcerer strategem.

So, if you use 1 CP, he can cast 4 witchfire spells. All from just one castor. And he can reroll a failed witchfire spell if he takes the cult of magic warlord trait.

Doombolt - 3MW
Tzeentch Firestorm - average 3 MW ?
Arcane Blast - average 3MW (depends on how clustered the opponent is).
Smite - d3 MW.

Then spend 4 cabal ritual points to add another d3 MW to the damage. Possibly use another 4 to make Arcane Blast 18 inches, so that all the witchfire spells are now 18 inches.

So, that's 9+2d3 MW all coming from one castor. lol Some can be denied I suppose. But honestly, its easy for a Tsons list to have 10 casts or more. How many denies do most lists even have?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 14:15:07


Post by: Mushkilla


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmm, why would you need the warlord trait to know an extra spell? Don't a Rehati Exalted Sorcerer already know 4 spells? 2 base plus one cult plus smite?


The cult one is super short range and can be cast by any other unit in the cult so it's a bit of a waste for this sorcerer to be casting it. Is my guess.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 14:20:48


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Mushkilla wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmm, why would you need the warlord trait to know an extra spell? Don't a Rehati Exalted Sorcerer already know 4 spells? 2 base plus one cult plus smite?


The cult one is super short range and can be cast by any other unit in the cult so it's a bit of a waste for this sorcerer to be casting it. Is my guess.


I don't quite understand. Every castor in a Tsons army cast with a +1. Doesn't really matter who is casting it as long as it goes off right? Short of Ahriman who can reroll all his psychic, every castor in a Tsons army is "equal" when it comes to casting a spell. Even the range of a spell can be extended by 6 inches for 4 cabal points.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 14:28:25


Post by: Mushkilla


Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmm, why would you need the warlord trait to know an extra spell? Don't a Rehati Exalted Sorcerer already know 4 spells? 2 base plus one cult plus smite?


The cult one is super short range and can be cast by any other unit in the cult so it's a bit of a waste for this sorcerer to be casting it. Is my guess.


I don't quite understand. Every castor in a Tsons army cast with a +1. Doesn't really matter who is casting it as long as it goes off right? Short of Ahriman who can reroll all his psychic, every castor in a Tsons army is "equal" when it comes to casting a spell. Even the range of a spell can be extended by 6 inches for 4 cabal points.


Is your 4 cast sorcerer going to be within 6" of a rubric/scarab unit that has lost a model every turn for the whole game? If the answer is no, then he will only be able to cast 3 powers on some of those turns and his movement will be dictated by the need to be 6" near a damaged rubric/scarab unit.

Also as mentioned you can give him +2 to cast on all those spells if he is wounded thanks to the warpweave mantle, you can easily inflict a wound on him by attempting to summon on 3 dice (any doubles cause a single mortal wound, you dont actually need to summon anything). Or if an infernal master fails a pact and you use the stratagem to autopass and inflict a single mortal wound on a model near him.

Does that make more sense?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 15:20:42


Post by: Daedalus81


 the_scotsman wrote:
yeah, I am also leaning towards 10 man SOT 5-man rubrics to have one concentrated power and strat-buffed unit in there. I love the fact that you can get 2 soulreapers in there and combo the stratagem, and handily my second SOT squad I magnetized the sorceror so his staff can be swapped out.


Ok - arm twisted. A twin volkite contemptor drops one...maybe two Scarabs with rr1s and AP1. 5 Scarabs do about the same with +1 to wound with more room to get amped. Definitely a loss in range though.

Spoiler:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mushkilla wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Quad Cast Exalted -

...

He will know three spells plus smite and cult. You'll have to force a 9 with cabal abilities occasionally to trigger with Echo. No Scrolls possible, since you need two WL traits to get the spell and the trigger.


Instead of the extra spell warlord trait. You could use the Unholy Sussurus stratagem to swap out the cult power for another spell. That way you get the 4 casts and you can take the scroll (or the relic that gives +1 to cast when you suffer a wound). So 4 casts at +2.


Oh. Good idea!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mushkilla wrote:

Is your 4 cast sorcerer going to be within 6" of a rubric/scarab unit that has lost a model every turn for the whole game? If the answer is no, then he will only be able to cast 3 powers on some of those turns and his movement will be dictated by the need to be 6" near a damaged rubric/scarab unit.

Also as mentioned you can give him +2 to cast on all those spells if he is wounded thanks to the warpweave mantle, you can easily inflict a wound on him by attempting to summon on 3 dice (any doubles cause a single mortal wound, you dont actually need to summon anything). Or if an infernal master fails a pact and you use the stratagem to autopass and inflict a single mortal wound on a model near him.

Does that make more sense?


Right - Immaterial Echo is Cult of Time, which has the resurrect spell. I want him tossing as many mind bullets as possible so swapping out the Cult spell works best for what I have in mind.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 15:28:56


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Mushkilla wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Mushkilla wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmm, why would you need the warlord trait to know an extra spell? Don't a Rehati Exalted Sorcerer already know 4 spells? 2 base plus one cult plus smite?



Is your 4 cast sorcerer going to be within 6" of a rubric/scarab unit that has lost a model every turn for the whole game? If the answer is no, then he will only be able to cast 3 powers on some of those turns and his movement will be dictated by the need to be 6" near a damaged rubric/scarab unit.

Also as mentioned you can give him +2 to cast on all those spells if he is wounded thanks to the warpweave mantle, you can easily inflict a wound on him by attempting to summon on 3 dice (any doubles cause a single mortal wound, you dont actually need to summon anything). Or if an infernal master fails a pact and you use the stratagem to autopass and inflict a single mortal wound on a model near him.

Does that make more sense?


Hmm.. ok. Makes more sense now.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 15:39:49


Post by: Mushkilla


You could also do a buff base build for the quad caster.

Rehati
Prism of echoes
Glamour of Tzeentch
Weaver of fates
Immaterial Echo
Smite

Prism of echoes - each time the bearer successfully manifests a blessing double the range of the effect.

You could then swap out smite on turn 1 for another blessing and potentially Immaterial Echo for a more potent blessing on turn 2.

The great thing with this is it makes Glamour of Tzeentch and Weaver of fates 36". You can make our 6" buffs 12" (even 18" with the ritual) etc.

Makes it much easier to keep your caster out of deny range (against annoying armies like sisters).


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 17:20:23


Post by: drakerocket


How does one yeet a MVT?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 17:23:49


Post by: yukishiro1


The cult of duplicity teleport spell works on both infantry and monsters, so you can technically use it on a mutalith.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/12 17:48:30


Post by: Daedalus81


yukishiro1 wrote:
The cult of duplicity teleport spell works on both infantry and monsters, so you can technically use it on a mutalith.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorthis' Mirror

It says you select an INFANTRY model and it makes 'attacks against its own unit', which I take to mean if I use this on a character it will attack itself. It's too bad the squigosaur is cavalry...




Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 02:24:07


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Here is my stab at a list based on my impressions and watching all the battle reports I could find on TSons on youtube.

Tsons Cult of Magic Patrol:

HQ: Rehati Exalted Sorcerer on Disk
Psychic: Doombolt, Tzeenth firestorm, Arcane Blast
Relic: Helm of Daemon's eye (get CP on a 5+)
Warlord Trait (The cult of magic one, can reroll a witchfire spell).

HQ: DP on wings with sword
Psychic: Infernal Gaze, Diabolic Strength
(Turn 1 fly up and blast stuff with withfire, turn 2, has the option to fly deep into enemy deployment zone and go tank/vehicle hunting. Good unit to countercharge any melee that wants to charge my 10 man Occult squad too)

Troop: 10 cultists

Elite: 5 Occult Terminators, hellfire racks, Soupreaper cannon - 215
Psychic: Glamour of Tzeentch
(move up steadily and buff the 10 man Occult squad)

Tsons Cult of Duplicity Patrol

HQ: Infernal Master
Psychic: Sorceress Facade, Empyric Guidance
Infernal Pact: Malefic Maelstorm, Glimpse of Eternity
Relic: Dark Matter Crystal (forgot the new name).
(This guy is the Yeeter).

Troop: 10 Tzaangors

Troop: 5 Rubrics, 2 Warp flamers, 1 soulreaper cannon
Psychic: Pyric Flux
Sergeant has Incamdeum relic (Str 5 flamer)

Troop: 5 Rubrics with 3 warpflamers
Psychic: Presience (mostly will just smite, prescience is cast on other units).

Elite: 10 Occult Terminators, 2 hellfire, 2 soulreaper
Rites of Coalescence (full heal one model each turn).
(This is the key unit to DMC forward).

Elite: 5 Occult terminator, hellfire, soulreaper
psychic: weaver of fates
(Move up steadily and buff the key 10 man Occult).

Fast attack: 3 Chaos Spawn (Counter charge Melee, can be warp timed and given a 4++ depending on the situation).

Heavy Support: 2 Vindicators - 260
(My main anti tank, quite resilient at T8, 5++. If need, they can also block up passageways so that tanks, dreadnaughts, calvary and bikes cannot easily get to my deployment zone).

So, I talked about my strategy before. I start hiding the key 10 man Occult unit well back, alongside the 5 man flamer rubric. Use the strategem Risen Rubricae to forward deploy one flamer rubric unit.

Then when I am ready, The Infernal Master will use DMC and his spell to yeet the 10 man Occult and the other Rubric unit forward to join the forward deployed rubric squad (who will advance move and then fire its warpflamers). The DP and the Rehati on disc flies+advance forward to join the 3 squads. Then I blast witchfire with the whole sheebag of 2 characters and 3 squads.

The two rear occult squads then move forward steadily and buff the 10 man Squad with Weaver and Glamour. I also move forward the 2 Vindicators and Chaos spawn unit. (Against more vehicle heavy lists, I will give Glimpse of Eternity reroll to one Vindicator's number of shots, and CP reroll the second Vindicator's number of shots).

I calculate I can throw 12 psychic casts, of which 9 are witchfire on turn 1 if I want to (so at least 20 MW). And if everything is in range, I can throw out on average 115 light shots and 15 heavy anti tank shots on turn 1 as well. If I instead want a more defensive approach, I will keep most of my units behind obscuring, and weaver of fates+warp time the Chaos Spawn unit forward onto a midboard objective, and then let the opponent makes his move, with the option to DMC and Yeet two units forward still present in my back pocket once my opponent has exposed himself. The whole army has a total of 151 fairly resilient wounds, so it can take a ton of beating before it goes down, and it will keep doing a ton of damage with its psychic and shooting as long as its castors are still alive.

Playing the mission: I need to playtest this. But given its ability to Yeet units around, and with a key strategy to yeet forward a big Termie unit onto the midfield as part of a deathball. I think it should play primary missions quite well. Getting a turn 1 15 VP against a slower, or hiding army is quite achievable.

Secondaries: Warpcraft. Will always take the Wrath of Magnus secondary against an army with psykers (unless its grey knights). This should be an easy 12 to 15 VP against most armies with just one or two psykers. Against non-psychic armies, I will take Psychic Ritual. Given how the army likes to have a big bloc of Occult terminators in the middle of the board and blasting away, Psychic Ritual secondary is great alongside this strategy.

Otherwise, may favor kill secondaries, as the killing power of the army is pretty high, while the army is pretty resilient. It should be able to outkill many armies. But given the teleport shenanegans of the army. Engage on all fronts is doable too. I think ROD is not ideal though, because the army's relatively expensive units would rather be dealing damage than performing actions.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 06:32:51


Post by: xerxeskingofking


Involved in a discussion over on the custodes tactics thread. A player their faced new tsons a d got slaughtered, and part of his problems was the enemy was stacking multiple healing tricks onto a 10 man SOT block to raise two or three of them after they were dropped by a maximum effort that was most squashed by -1 damage and other defensive buffs.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but most of our healing tricks have "a unit can only be healed once per turn" or words to that effect, don't they? And that wording applies to any source of healing, so you can't just stack then like that?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 06:48:53


Post by: Eldenfirefly


xerxeskingofking wrote:
Involved in a discussion over on the custodes tactics thread. A player their faced new tsons a d got slaughtered, and part of his problems was the enemy was stacking multiple healing tricks onto a 10 man SOT block to raise two or three of them after they were dropped by a maximum effort that was most squashed by -1 damage and other defensive buffs.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but most of our healing tricks have "a unit can only be healed once per turn" or words to that effect, don't they? And that wording applies to any source of healing, so you can't just stack then like that?


Yeah. I don't have the new codex yet. But yes, there does seem to be wording that "a unit can only be healed once per turn" or something along those lines. You can rezz one model and heal up another model within the same unit I believe though. Since Rez and healing are two different things. Bringing a model back (rezzing) is different from healing. I just visited that thread. It appears that the Tsons player used cabal points to allow him to cast a particular psychic power one more time. I don't think there is any wording in that particular psychic power from the cult of Time (time flux) that limits it to once per turn. This is in part because usually psychic powers can only be cast once a turn anyway, except for smite.

So... heal one Occult terminator to full, cast time flux to bring back another Occult terminator, and finally, use Cabal points to cast Time flux again to bring back a second Occult terminator... Its very mean, but unless there is wording within time flux that forbids that... that tactic may be perfectly legal...


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 07:20:07


Post by: p5freak


With the exception of Smite, you cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in the same battle round, even with different PSYKER units. Actual rules quote from the psychic phase.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 07:34:58


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 p5freak wrote:
With the exception of Smite, you cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in the same battle round, even with different PSYKER units. Actual rules quote from the psychic phase.


Yeah, but that cabal ritual specifically breaks this rule. That ritual literally allows you to cast a psychic power you have already cast one more time. Otherwise, it would be a pointless illegal ritual.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 07:39:17


Post by: EightFoldPath


There is a cabal ritual that lets you cast one witchfire spell that has already been attempted that presumably overrides that limitation. Presumably the same thing is why a GK special rule lets them cast some non smite spells more than once.

Key thing to note is it only lets you cast a witchfire spell, the res is not a witchfire.

The maximum res you can do in a turn is 1 from Cult of Time and 1 from the 1 CP strat that needs an unmodified 9+ to either heal a wounded model or res if there are no wounded models in the unit. The odds of this second one going off are a flat 10/36 for your Scarab unit. I've not checked if you can use the cast another spell for 1 CP strat on Scarabs or if it is character locked but that would give you 2 10/36 chances to get the second res.

There is going to be so much unintentional cheating while everyone learns the rules, but TSons are also shaping up to be a really bad army for TFG to play against newbies. If you don't know the rules yourself it is very hard to follow the psychic phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to add, there are a bunch of rules in the codex requiring a 9+ and a bunch requiring an unmodified 9+, another avenue for unintentional or intentional cheating.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 07:41:25


Post by: Eldenfirefly


EightFoldPath wrote:
There is a cabal ritual that lets you cast one witchfire spell that has already been attempted that presumably overrides that limitation. Presumably the same thing is why a GK special rule lets them cast some non smite spells more than once.

Key thing to note is it only lets you cast a witchfire spell, the res is not a witchfire.

The maximum res you can do in a turn is 1 from Cult of Time and 1 from the 1 CP strat that needs an unmodified 9+ to either heal a wounded model or res if there are no wounded models in the unit. The odds of this second one going off are a flat 10/36 for your Scarab unit. I've not checked if you can use the cast another spell for 1 CP strat on Scarabs or if it is character locked but that would give you 2 10/36 chances to get the second res.

There is going to be so much unintentional cheating while everyone learns the rules, but TSons are also shaping up to be a really bad army for TFG to play against newbies. If you don't know the rules yourself it is very hard to follow the psychic phase.


Ah ok. This is what happens when we don't have the codex and are just basing it on what we read online and such. If that cabal ritual is only limited to witchfire spells only, then yes, it cannot be used on a rez spell. So that play was illegal.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 07:52:03


Post by: EightFoldPath


The strats are called Great Sorcerer (can use on a Scarab) and Warped Regeneration. So you could get an above 50% chance to pull it off by spending 2 CP per turn. Just make sure you've healed any injured Scarabs to full first (I'll be using the 15 point upgrade).

I'm playing my first games tomorrow and my two goals are (1) melt some faces with spells and (2) do as little unintentional cheating as possible.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 07:52:05


Post by: p5freak


The pact from beyond lets you automatically manifest a psychic power at its minimum value. If you do that for the 7th smite the minimum value would be 11. And that would be a super smite. If you do that on magnus it would be 3D3 MW. He almost pays the needed cabal points himself with 5 you get from him, 7 is needed for pact from beyond.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 08:16:16


Post by: Eldenfirefly


EightFoldPath wrote:
The strats are called Great Sorcerer (can use on a Scarab) and Warped Regeneration. So you could get an above 50% chance to pull it off by spending 2 CP per turn. Just make sure you've healed any injured Scarabs to full first (I'll be using the 15 point upgrade).

I'm playing my first games tomorrow and my two goals are (1) melt some faces with spells and (2) do as little unintentional cheating as possible.


Oh!!! Do share how your game went ! I need more such sharing to get a better feel of Tsons.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 08:40:11


Post by: BoomWolf


 p5freak wrote:
The pact from beyond lets you automatically manifest a psychic power at its minimum value. If you do that for the 7th smite the minimum value would be 11. And that would be a super smite. If you do that on magnus it would be 3D3 MW. He almost pays the needed cabal points himself with 5 you get from him, 7 is needed for pact from beyond.


He gives 5 though.

And with +2 to +3 to cast plus rerolls, maybe he doesn't really NEED to auto-cast?
I mean, you got the bonus to the cast roll rituals in case it fails too.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 08:55:48


Post by: Grotrebel


Upgrading a Time Cult Scarab Sorcerer for 15 points with Rites of Coalescence is basically an auto-take.
Fully heal 1 Scarab in your Command Phase, then cast time Flux, on a 5+ (because +1) you get back 1 Scarab, on a 9+ you get back 2 for 1 CP. Neat.

Assuming you get losses every turn you could get back up to 400 points with 5 9+ casts + heal up to 10 Scarab wounds total.
Sure it's not probable, but it's quite easy to get back 200 points if you run a lot of Scarabs.


And about that Rehati Sorcerer: With Rehati + the Great Sorcerer + Immaterial Echo Trait you could cast 5 powers which makes him the Model with the most casts in 40k.
You need to cast one of those with Psychic Maelstrom or pick another power via the Chronos Tutorum though as he just knows 4 powers base.

But my favourite is still Rehati with Gaze & Firestorm (Scrolls on that one) for an average 6,5 sniping MW's in 18" for character hunting. With Astral Blast you could make that 7,5 if the character is within 3" of your closest unit.
With Temporal Surge (possible on disc / infantry sorcerers, ) / Crystal (possible on prince's & disc / infantry sorcerers) / Sourcerous Facade (infantry sorcerers & Princes) we have multiple ways to get that dude back to safety after casting in the first 2 turns.


On another note: Since you can use the Master Misinformator WL trait after knowing who goes first, I will try 10 Duplicity Flamer Rubrics in my next game. If you go first you can deploy them in front of your opponent with Risen Rubricae and flame away with 30+ Flamer hits that get S5 from Pyric Flux and +1 to wound from wrath of the wronged. It's 275 points but might be a fun thing to try, especially if you get more stuff in your opponents face with Surge & Crystal.


Time Cult Detachment for Scarabs and Duplicity Cult detachment for Rubrics for flexibility seems the way to go for me, with Magic (a bit more reliable witchfire for 1 model) and Scheming (just for saving 3 CP on Phalanx once) being situational but kinda ok.
Scheming is a bit useless if you can fit all stuff in 1 detachment as you want to play at least 1 detachment time or duplicity cult anyway, so 2 CP patrol + 1 CP relic makes it useless in my opinion. If anything at all its the obsec trait that might work for them but it's just 1 or 2 objectives your warlord can cover, so it's a really limited buff.

The other cults are even more situational, might be worth in certain matchups for pick up games but I don't see it for tournaments or without knowing what you're up against.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 09:07:57


Post by: BoomWolf


You do know you know need to be in full health to rez a guy with time flux, right?

The rite seems nice, for a big squad.
I mean, it only needs to heal 1 wound to neary cover the costs, if it healed 2 wounds it covers the cost and more

But how often do you find yourself with a wounded scarab? honestly, I don't think I did often. maybe I will more now, but remains to be seen.



As for the Master Misinformator. that was my go-to stratagy with 20 rubric block last codex.
It won't be as good with a flamer squad, and costs more CP, but at least its cheaper pointwise.
It was basically "I go first-I hammer you hard, you go first, I just play with a bit less CP"


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 09:39:52


Post by: Insularum


Stacking all the buffs on a big unit of Scarabs seems like a no brainer - does anyone have an opinion on whether the following would work:
1. Infernal master tries to apply a pact to Scarabs, if he fails uses Malignant Pact strat to auto pass and MW the Scarabs (in command phase).
2. Scarabs subsequently use Rites of Coalescence (in the same command phase) to heal away the MW ready to rez models.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 09:43:39


Post by: BoomWolf


 Insularum wrote:
Stacking all the buffs on a big unit of Scarabs seems like a no brainer - does anyone have an opinion on whether the following would work:
1. Infernal master tries to apply a pact to Scarabs, if he fails uses Malignant Pact strat to auto pass and MW the Scarabs (in command phase).
2. Scarabs subsequently use Rites of Coalescence (in the same command phase) to heal away the MW ready to rez models.


Should work, the rites state that's it is done in your command phase, but not in any specific timing in it.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 09:57:27


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Insularum wrote:
Stacking all the buffs on a big unit of Scarabs seems like a no brainer - does anyone have an opinion on whether the following would work:
1. Infernal master tries to apply a pact to Scarabs, if he fails uses Malignant Pact strat to auto pass and MW the Scarabs (in command phase).
2. Scarabs subsequently use Rites of Coalescence (in the same command phase) to heal away the MW ready to rez models.


Wow... that is such a sick combo! I love it! LOL


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grotrebel wrote:
Upgrading a Time Cult Scarab Sorcerer for 15 points with Rites of Coalescence is basically an auto-take.
Fully heal 1 Scarab in your Command Phase, then cast time Flux, on a 5+ (because +1) you get back 1 Scarab, on a 9+ you get back 2 for 1 CP. Neat.

Assuming you get losses every turn you could get back up to 400 points with 5 9+ casts + heal up to 10 Scarab wounds total.
Sure it's not probable, but it's quite easy to get back 200 points if you run a lot of Scarabs.


And about that Rehati Sorcerer: With Rehati + the Great Sorcerer + Immaterial Echo Trait you could cast 5 powers which makes him the Model with the most casts in 40k.
You need to cast one of those with Psychic Maelstrom or pick another power via the Chronos Tutorum though as he just knows 4 powers base.

But my favourite is still Rehati with Gaze & Firestorm (Scrolls on that one) for an average 6,5 sniping MW's in 18" for character hunting. With Astral Blast you could make that 7,5 if the character is within 3" of your closest unit.
With Temporal Surge (possible on disc / infantry sorcerers, ) / Crystal (possible on prince's & disc / infantry sorcerers) / Sourcerous Facade (infantry sorcerers & Princes) we have multiple ways to get that dude back to safety after casting in the first 2 turns.


On another note: Since you can use the Master Misinformator WL trait after knowing who goes first, I will try 10 Duplicity Flamer Rubrics in my next game. If you go first you can deploy them in front of your opponent with Risen Rubricae and flame away with 30+ Flamer hits that get S5 from Pyric Flux and +1 to wound from wrath of the wronged. It's 275 points but might be a fun thing to try, especially if you get more stuff in your opponents face with Surge & Crystal.


Time Cult Detachment for Scarabs and Duplicity Cult detachment for Rubrics for flexibility seems the way to go for me, with Magic (a bit more reliable witchfire for 1 model) and Scheming (just for saving 3 CP on Phalanx once) being situational but kinda ok.
Scheming is a bit useless if you can fit all stuff in 1 detachment as you want to play at least 1 detachment time or duplicity cult anyway, so 2 CP patrol + 1 CP relic makes it useless in my opinion. If anything at all its the obsec trait that might work for them but it's just 1 or 2 objectives your warlord can cover, so it's a really limited buff.

The other cults are even more situational, might be worth in certain matchups for pick up games but I don't see it for tournaments or without knowing what you're up against.



Lots of cool combos here! I think cult of magic still has some play. Arcane blast is a great spell. And after a while, you run out of witchfire spells to cast except smite, which is only once per character, and the casting cost keeps going up.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 14:53:34


Post by: Daedalus81


 Grotrebel wrote:

But my favourite is still Rehati with Gaze & Firestorm (Scrolls on that one) for an average 6,5 sniping MW's in 18" for character hunting. With Astral Blast you could make that 7,5 if the character is within 3" of your closest unit.
With Temporal Surge (possible on disc / infantry sorcerers, ) / Crystal (possible on prince's & disc / infantry sorcerers) / Sourcerous Facade (infantry sorcerers & Princes) we have multiple ways to get that dude back to safety after casting in the first 2 turns.


I've been eyeballing sniper builds like this in tandem with Enlightened.

They always hit on a 2+ and still autowound on 6s, so, 2x3 of them --

1 auto wound
5 * .833 * .666 = 2.77
3.77 * .5 = 1.9 to a MEQ

More points than a set of Eliminators, but more wounds, mobility, and fly so they can pop over terrain.

Firestorm with Scrolls averages 3, which puts us at ~5 wounds, which is most characters. Not sure how I'd fit them though.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 16:29:14


Post by: Grotrebel


I've been eyeballing sniper builds like this in tandem with Enlightened.

They always hit on a 2+ and still autowound on 6s, so, 2x3 of them --

1 auto wound
5 * .833 * .666 = 2.77
3.77 * .5 = 1.9 to a MEQ

More points than a set of Eliminators, but more wounds, mobility, and fly so they can pop over terrain.

Firestorm with Scrolls averages 3, which puts us at ~5 wounds, which is most characters. Not sure how I'd fit them though.

I tried to see something worth in taking Enlightened, as painting 9 of them took me ages, but for me i can hardly justify taking them.
They might be ok-ish for scoring Engage on all fronts if you have no other options, but they die like flies so personally for me it`s not worth for scoring engage once.

If they had kept their 2 shots or could do actions they might have been worth a try, but even then i`m not sure.
But yeah, if you want to have some additional "safety" for sniping they might be an option, but S5 AP1 isn`t that great.

For those 108 points you`ll get another squad of 5 Rubrics though.



You do know you know need to be in full health to rez a guy with time flux, right?

Was that response for me?
Thats what the Aspiring Sorcerer upgrade is for, it will get your Scarab on full health in the command phase and in your psychic phase you`re set for time flux.


But how often do you find yourself with a wounded scarab? honestly, I don't think I did often. maybe I will more now, but remains to be seen.

With 3 wounds and the -1 dmg strat i think it`s gonna happen a lot.
In my first game i had wounded Scarabs every turn and regreted not getting the 15 points somewhere for the upgrade.^^


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 16:47:46


Post by: BoomWolf


I was trying to write you do NOT need to be in full health to rez with Flux, but my phone trolled me


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 17:03:46


Post by: dreadlybrew


So I am looking at the way the debut games are being played on channels and 1ksons are running into a staying power issue.

I think the answer is to castle and build a few bowling balls.

Im hooked on forgefiends and mauler fiends right now.

Can we teleport them? supping up a Maulerfiend and teleporting it across the board to tie up some units is a solid option.

I also loved old heldrakes. Giving them a hover mode lets them charge turn1 too but making them aircraft means you cant hide them behind obscuring anymore.

Its possible turn 1 super size a heldrake and send it into whatever you can.

So turn 1 you can snag a heldrake and a maulerfiend into the back line.

Thats the distraction.

The Castle has to create a smite concave that you opponents have to get drawn into.

Is magnus a trap now?


Also what will you be using to count your cabal points? spindown d20? or tokens? cheetos?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 17:17:07


Post by: Eldenfirefly


dreadlybrew wrote:
So I am looking at the way the debut games are being played on channels and 1ksons are running into a staying power issue.

I think the answer is to castle and build a few bowling balls.

Im hooked on forgefiends and mauler fiends right now.

Can we teleport them? supping up a Maulerfiend and teleporting it across the board to tie up some units is a solid option.

I also loved old heldrakes. Giving them a hover mode lets them charge turn1 too but making them aircraft means you cant hide them behind obscuring anymore.

Its possible turn 1 super size a heldrake and send it into whatever you can.

So turn 1 you can snag a heldrake and a maulerfiend into the back line.

Thats the distraction.

The Castle has to create a smite concave that you opponents have to get drawn into.

Is magnus a trap now?


Also what will you be using to count your cabal points? spindown d20? or tokens? cheetos?


You can't teleport a daemon engine now. You can't warptime one either.

The new warptime only works on infantry, beast or calvary. The duplicity spell Sorcerous Facade only works on infantry and monsters.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 17:24:11


Post by: dreadlybrew


yuck, Heldrake x2 it is then


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 17:27:25


Post by: Daedalus81


dreadlybrew wrote:
So I am looking at the way the debut games are being played on channels and 1ksons are running into a staying power issue.

I think the answer is to castle and build a few bowling balls.


Got links to ones you've watched?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 18:29:00


Post by: MortarionsFriend


Are TSons durable enough? I know there is a lot of excitement over Occult Terminators but - while they aren't super pricey - they also aren't cheap on a wound per point basis. It also seems like a decent comp army - like ramshackle orks, dark eldar, etc. will just blow them out of the water.

So much seems to revolve around keeping the characters safe... I'm thinking the rhino may be the unsung hero here as it has an invul and fairly cheap to take?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 18:40:32


Post by: Grotrebel


@BoomWolf

I like your summary on the first page, but i`d like to add some additional thought / ideas:


Exalted Sorcerer B

I understand your argument about the Princes / Ahriman, but i would still rate the Exalted at least A.
You get almost two for the price of a winged prince, have the infantry keyword, can get relics / WL traits unlike Ahriman and have some good Legion upgrades that unlock abilitys that the prince and Ahriman don`t have access to. I agree you should always take a Prince if possible, but since you take more than 2-3 HQ´s anyway there`s always room for an Exalted and he`s good for his point costs.


Infernal Master B

For me he is a solid S, but should be at least an A in my opinion. With 90 points he is quite cheap, he`s a psyker and 3 of his Infernal Pacts are very strong.
Glimpse of Eternity is pure Gold for charges and other important stuff, that kind of reroll is damn good and replaces our Gaze of Fate. Malefic Maelstrom is also pretty solid and can make big squads of Scarabs / Rubrics even more devastating. Bladed Maelstrom is good as well and the rest at least situationally good. With the strat you can even have a 100% "cast".
I´d even say taking two Masters in a infantry heavy list is a decent option for more flexibility. A strategem to use 1 Master twice would have been so damn cool...


Scarab Occult Terminators A

Why not S? You basically wrote why they should be. They got really good and on top of it ObSec? Deal.


Arrogance of Eons[C

I`d give this an A and even call this the best trait in our codex (at least for Exalted Sorcerers). This will be my go-to trait for my MW Exalted / Prince 90% of the time, because besides the deny reroll it`s the second part of the trait that makes it so good. Being able to profit from 2 rituals is really strong to stack buffs, especially if you consider you can combine it with relics.
Stuff like casting without LOS + D3 extra MW to kill hiding characters or simply spam MW and so on. Rituals is already a really strong mechanic and being able to double tab it on a psyker is fantastic, especially if it`s your workhorse / sniper Psyker.


Umbralefic Crystal A

This was an auto-take before and it still is - i`d rate it a straight S.
Tactical flexibility, the 9th mission design and the ability to combine it with Temporal Surge & Sorcerous Facade for some early pressure or late game tricks makes this one of our best relics.


Athenaean Scrolls A

Considering super smites and powers like Firestorm that have a super charged mode now, i`d rate this S as well.
Anything that makes our important psychic phase more reliable is a straight and solid buff, and that one - while being limited to 1 power - is still decent.


Tzeentch Firestorm A

Gaze of Hate C

Our two sniper powers to go, i`d rate them both S or at least rate Gaze A as well, even if it is worse on average if you compare it with supercharged Firestorm.
But considering the D3 extra MW and the other Rituals + our other psychic buffs for me those are both S tier just for their utility.
Easy casts as well and along others our "long" range witchfire spells now.


PresageB

Thats harsh, the stacking on big squads of Scarabs / Rubrics with this is pretty devastating + it kept it`s option to cast it on FW stuff (Of wich a lot got nerfed to BF 3+)
I have not been playing without this since our last codex dropped and never regretted taking it.
This should be A or even S.


Weaver of Fates C

I know we lost the 3++, but honestly this still feels like an A+?
Just for the Scarabs 4++ this is an auto-take imo and even for other stuff it`s still a good one.
Not locked on anything as well.




Overall great work there with quite a few good catches and the most important stuff there.
Alltogether it kinda feels you rated most powers a bit worse though - that kinda does not matter so much as the internal rating is the same that way, but especially on those above it felt a bit more underrated.





Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 18:43:12


Post by: dreadlybrew


 Daedalus81 wrote:
dreadlybrew wrote:
So I am looking at the way the debut games are being played on channels and 1ksons are running into a staying power issue.

I think the answer is to castle and build a few bowling balls.


Got links to ones you've watched?



Youtube channels: Tabletop Tactics, Tabletop Titans, Vanguard Tactics, and twisted dice.

GK won every one of them. a few were close but Tsons are basically missing the melee phase which the GK are very good at.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 21:02:30


Post by: Brian888


dreadlybrew wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
dreadlybrew wrote:
So I am looking at the way the debut games are being played on channels and 1ksons are running into a staying power issue.

I think the answer is to castle and build a few bowling balls.


Got links to ones you've watched?



Youtube channels: Tabletop Tactics, Tabletop Titans, Vanguard Tactics, and twisted dice.

GK won every one of them. a few were close but Tsons are basically missing the melee phase which the GK are very good at.


GKs also have that army-wide 5+ against mortal wounds. They honestly seem tailor-made as a hard counter to TSons. It'll be interesting to see the TSons matched up against other armies that don't have that built-in MW protection. Against GKs, I suspect TSons will have to go one of two routes: Go WAY overboard on MW production to punch through the Aegis' protection, or dial back on the sorcery and focus more on stuff like Helbrutes and other vehicles.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/13 21:12:11


Post by: xerxeskingofking


Brian888 wrote:


GKs also have that army-wide 5+ against mortal wounds. They honestly seem tailor-made as a hard counter to TSons.


to be fair, it sort of makes sense they would be. they are, like, the imperium's specialist anti-Warpstuff marines. Daemons are a big part of that, yes, but thier are other facets and being really good witchkillers will give them some options against other armies than us.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 00:10:07


Post by: Daedalus81


dreadlybrew wrote:


Youtube channels: Tabletop Tactics, Tabletop Titans, Vanguard Tactics, and twisted dice.

GK won every one of them. a few were close but Tsons are basically missing the melee phase which the GK are very good at.


So, I'm watching TTactics and he deployed with an all duplicity army that allowed Interceptors to gate behind and totally ruin a whole squad. And honestly the terrain is beautiful, but the setup is atrocious. His entirely army is basically in the open, he went first, and did absolutely nothing.

Titans took Magnus making for a smaller army and he managed to get a GMDK to teleport and charged his backfield. I don't think they had much time in the book since he thought he had to roll morale and he did a 2D6 smite with Magnus.

I wouldn't take away much from these initial games.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 01:09:30


Post by: yukishiro1


The book's big weakness IMO is that it has almost nothing that trades well. Spawn are about it. It's like the polar opposite of dark eldar. What you do have is good concentrated MW output and extremely, ridiculously reliable casting, but none of it is on a delivery mechanism you can trade effectively with. If you play this book by trying to just blow up your enemy you are going to have a very bad time of it. So many armies can just comprehensively outkill you.

That said, I think a certain kind of TS list is going to be quite successful - especially if the FAQ turns out to say that "can't be denied" means you can't use any of the denial strats, in addition to just DTW. That opens up the ability for TS to be the only faction that can plan around being able to take psychic secondaries, and a list built around taking a psychic secondary, one of either while we stand or wrath of magnus depending on the matchup, and banners/ROD/maybe even engage or burn empires, I think has real potential to win on points even though it's being comprehensively beaten on an army vs army level.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 01:27:32


Post by: Brian888


yukishiro1 wrote:
The book's big weakness IMO is that it has almost nothing that trades well. Spawn are about it. It's like the polar opposite of dark eldar. What you do have is good concentrated MW output and extremely, ridiculously reliable casting, but none of it is on a delivery mechanism you can trade effectively with. If you play this book by trying to just blow up your enemy you are going to have a very bad time of it. So many armies can just comprehensively outkill you.

That said, I think a certain kind of TS list is going to be quite successful - especially if the FAQ turns out to say that "can't be denied" means you can't use any of the denial strats, in addition to just DTW. That opens up the ability for TS to be the only faction that can plan around being able to take psychic secondaries, and a list built around taking a psychic secondary, one of either while we stand or wrath of magnus depending on the matchup, and banners/ROD/maybe even engage or burn empires, I think has real potential to win on points even though it's being comprehensively beaten on an army vs army level.


I feel like that's a very army-appropriate, "Just as I planned" strategy. Models get thrashed, but you actually win on the points.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 01:42:29


Post by: Eldenfirefly


dreadlybrew wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
dreadlybrew wrote:
So I am looking at the way the debut games are being played on channels and 1ksons are running into a staying power issue.

I think the answer is to castle and build a few bowling balls.


Got links to ones you've watched?



Youtube channels: Tabletop Tactics, Tabletop Titans, Vanguard Tactics, and twisted dice.

GK won every one of them. a few were close but Tsons are basically missing the melee phase which the GK are very good at.



I watched everyone of these as well. Tabletop titans has one more on membership channel which I watched too, which finally had a first TSons win which was against Necrons. But it was a hard fought close match right up till the end. I noticed a few things that maybe contributed to the widespread heavy losses.

1. Tsons vs GK is a bad matchup for Tsons. GK has aegis which gives the 5+ save against MW. This reduces the MW output of Tsons against them by one third. Also, GK specialises in close combat now. Any player looking at their army generally comes up with the strategy of teleporting or deep striking or moving fast units into charge range, throw out some witchfire spells and smites, and then charging into close combat. This is a natural counter to a Tsons army playstyle, which doesn't really want to go into that much melee.

2. Most of the players do not lean into smite and witchfire spells enough. I easily count over 10 casts that most of these armies could do, and they end up casting non witchfire spells with most of them. Don't get me wrong, a few buffs/movement spells might be crucial... However, you simply can't buff or debuff your opponent to death. If a typical Tsons army has the potential to do 20 MW, and you are only doing 6MW because you cast so many more other non witchfire spells... then unless your ranged and melee damage makes up for that deficit, otherwise, you are losing too much of the damage that should be part of a Tsons army.

3. The list making stage. They paid so much for extra casting abilities and had too little units. Many lists took multiple expensive characters and ended up with fewer units. Once those units died, the expensive castors died too. Count up the "Abalative wounds" which you need to shield your castors in your army. So take out your characters and see how many wounds your army has in total. If your opponent's army has 100 wounds minus characters, while your Tsons army only has 70W. Then you are already playing with a 30% smaller army against them. Are Tsons characters so good they can win the game with such a huge disadvantage in the regular army size?

4. Too much points spent on Rubrics and not using Rubrics well. I think Rubrics are a tough unit to use well, and to make back their points. For point efficiency, I would always use Occults over Rubrics. Occults shoot better, fight so much better, are so much tankier. Rubrics are fine, but we need to have a proper plan for them. If we just stand our rubrics at long range and rely on that one reaper cannon and a few inferno shots each turn while we slowly move them around 6 inches per turn, they will likely just get charged and die before making back their points. Not enough warpflamers on these rubrics, and even if you do use warpflamer rubrics, the question is whether you make back their points. Imagine loading up 10 warpflamer rubrics onto a Rhino. Thats 80+270 or 350 points! If you get out of the Rhino, overkill BBQ one unit and then die to being charged after that. You just lost a huge chunk of points just to BBQ one unit. Was it even a good trade ? They don't even have to kill the Rubric squad. Once most enemy units get into close combat with a Rubric squad, it is effectively neutralised because you can't shoot anymore. A rubric marine has just 2 attacks with 0AP. Even a 10 man Rubric squad costing over 200 points will take forever to fight a regular 100 point squad of first born marines in melee.

5. They don't use Cult of Duplicity. Given the slow speed of our army. We actually play like a more shooty/psychic Deathguard army while being less resilient. But we have DMC and cult of Duplicity to make up for that. We absolutely need this. I feel that Cult of Duplicity is so important for the teleport spell that even if we want to play other cults, we still then need to play two detachments simply because that teleport spell is so important. Without that and DMC (which is one use only), we are a slow plodding army.

6. The secondary objectives. Most of the games I watched ended up with the Tsons player scoring low despite taking a Tsons specific secondary. The only Tsons secondary that you should take against GK should be Sorceress Powess. Any other Tsons secondary against a GK list is bad because they have the psychic ability to match us closely. With Sorceress Powess, kill 5 GK units, and you get the max 15 points. Kill 1 GK character and 3 GK units and you get 14 points. I don't know why most of the channel players didn't take this against GK. If you can't kill 5 GK units throughout the course of the whole game, you probably have lost badly anyway.

7. Not enough melee capability. Like it or not, you will end up in Melee during the game. Far too many lists didn't have enough melee. Its like once their army get touched, its effectiveness dropped to zero.

That's my 2 cents after observing all the Tsons youtube videos since our codex dropped.





Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 01:50:53


Post by: yukishiro1


Brian888 wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
The book's big weakness IMO is that it has almost nothing that trades well. Spawn are about it. It's like the polar opposite of dark eldar. What you do have is good concentrated MW output and extremely, ridiculously reliable casting, but none of it is on a delivery mechanism you can trade effectively with. If you play this book by trying to just blow up your enemy you are going to have a very bad time of it. So many armies can just comprehensively outkill you.

That said, I think a certain kind of TS list is going to be quite successful - especially if the FAQ turns out to say that "can't be denied" means you can't use any of the denial strats, in addition to just DTW. That opens up the ability for TS to be the only faction that can plan around being able to take psychic secondaries, and a list built around taking a psychic secondary, one of either while we stand or wrath of magnus depending on the matchup, and banners/ROD/maybe even engage or burn empires, I think has real potential to win on points even though it's being comprehensively beaten on an army vs army level.


I feel like that's a very army-appropriate, "Just as I planned" strategy. Models get thrashed, but you actually win on the points.


For sure. It actually fits really well, given how basically everything in the army is totally expendable and/or infinitely resurrectable aside from the leaders. This doesn't feel like a very wide book, though. I have a feeling all the competitive TS armies are gonna look really similar in a few months once people work it out.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 03:40:56


Post by: Eldenfirefly


But then again, isn't that a contradiction? On the one hand, we don't seem to trade well because most of our units are expensive. Yet, we are trying to go for objectives at all costs while ignoring casualties.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 03:46:45


Post by: yukishiro1


Not really. Playing the mission is the standard strategy for an army with units that don't trade well. Custodes, Dark Angels that lean into deathwing, DG, etc.

40k basically has two types of armies, the type of armies that try to table the opponent (Ad Mech being the most obvious example at the moment), and the type of armies that try to win while getting tabled. TS looks to me like a win while getting tabled army.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 03:54:12


Post by: Eldenfirefly


We can make a pretty tough resilient list if we lean into daemon princes, chaos spawn and Occults Terminators and Vindicators. It might be a lot of similar units, but it will be tough to kill. Daemon Princes are one per detachment. So we can easily run two if we have two detachments.

Two detachments (just 2 more CP) can let us bring an army with 3x5 chaos spawn, 3 squads of Occult terminators, 2 Daemon Princes and 3 Vindicators. That's 8 units that can fight reasonably well, and 11 units which are reasonably tough to kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a separate note. A basic DP is movement 8 right?

A DP without wings, but with the warlord trait Aetherstride gets a 11 inch fly, and can fall back and charge. Sounds like a great way to save 35 points !


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 04:36:29


Post by: yukishiro1


That list has like no good secondary picks. Can't do banners. Can't do while we stand. Engage is problematic, you'll get it for a turn or two, but as soon as the spawn die you are going to have trouble keeping it up for 5 turns. Rod is theoretically possible but practically a huge waste of the scarabs, even the one you upgrade to be able to shoot. Psychic secondaries are iffy with so few casters and so few cabal points, you lose just a couple things and you can't make your psychic action undeniable and you don't really want to be doing that with a demon prince anyway if you can avoid it. You're stuck hoping for lucky picks like wrath, kill secondaries against skew lists, etc.

A good rule of thumb is that for a list to work competitively it needs two secondaries it can rely on scoring at least 10 points on in all but the very worst matchups, with a third that will score at least 6, preferably more.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 06:03:33


Post by: Eldenfirefly


So, maybe drop 1 Vindicator. You need to have two troop units anyway for two patrols. Two tzaangor/cultist units for raise banners. Maybe add in a flying tzaangor shaman and bring slightly less Chao Spawn.

Sorry oh wait, ROD cannot be done by characters zzz. But an infernal master and two troops can certainly raise banners. ROD really doesn't seem like a great secondary for us. Our infantry is too expensive and valuable to waste on doing ROD.

Warp Ritual seems great for us as a secondary. Can be easily done with an infernal master or shaman near the center. So that covers warpcraft. Or we can take the Legion command Ardent Automata for +20 points on an Occult Aspiring sorceror. This lets our Occult terminator Sorceror unit do the warp ritual while still being able to shoot. I just got my codex today and doubled checked something. Cabalistic Focus is a cabal ritual that costs 8 cabal points. It specifically states that a psychic action or power cannot be denied. So, Tsons can literally force through and complete Warp Ritual secondary no matter how many denies the opponent has as long as you are willing to spend 8 cabal points for 3 turns to do it.

For the Tsons specific secondary, Wrath of Magnus seems auto take as long as opponent is not GK. And against GK, then we bring sorceress powers, which is simply psychic units or characters killed, they don't need to be killed by psychic. They can be killed by shooting and melee and it would still count as well. (Addendum - I was wrong about this. Now that I got the codex and double checked, it counts only in units killed during the psychic phase, so this is bad against GK. There is nothing good against GK except forcing through Warp Ritual.)

So, that just leaves one secondary left. Actually, Ardent Automata wording is that the Aspiring sorceror unit can shoot and still perform an action without failing. So, its not just psychic actions, its ALL actions. This means that for 20 points, that will cover us raising the banners on a midpoint objective once our Occult terminators have cleared it. Or we can use DMC to yeet the 10 man Occult squad onto an unoccupied midpoint objective, it raises banners and can still shoot.

Add to that the two cheap squads we can take to raise banners, that should cover raise banners.

Honestly, now that I read this more closely, it really looks like we don't exactly need to twist our army composition into knots and we can still comfortably cover secondary objectives. We should be good on primaries too, because we will likely have one big obsec deathball in the middle of the board.

I thought of another thing. if you go Cult of Scheming and give a Daemon Prince the Grand Schemer warlord trait. Then the DP now have a 3 inch gives obsec aura, and it gives obsec units double obsec. Good luck trying to take away from me that midboard objective that has my deathball with at least 10 Occult terminators with double obsec and 5 chaos spawn and a DP all with obsec. (It can have more units too lol).

Also, our ability to "snipe" enemy castors is considerable. One good infernal gaze and Tzeentch firestorm +d3 MW more damage from a cabal ritual could possibly kill an enemy castor. Once that librarian is dead, no more psychic deny, so we don't even need to spend the 8 cabal points anymore to make it undeniable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Finally we have a good battle report where the Tsons won with quite good play from DC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8aO0BIqXaA&ab_channel=SNBattleReports

He did quite well considering he was new to Tsons.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 09:53:07


Post by: BoomWolf


Eldenfirefly wrote:
S
For the Tsons specific secondary, Wrath of Magnus seems auto take as long as opponent is not GK. And against GK, then we bring sorceress powers, which is simply psychic units or characters killed, they don't need to be killed by psychic. They can be killed by shooting and melee and it would still count as well.



False
The objective clearly states "in the psychic phase"

It does not count any melee or shooty kills, and ESPECIALLY against GK, you can't trust psyker kills.

The only reason to EVER take sorceress powers is against some fool who brings a lot of psykers in a non-psyker army, or maybe a mirrior match where the enemy has SO MANY psykers, but not the GK defense.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 10:59:24


Post by: xerxeskingofking


well, my physical copy of the codex got here today, which was a suprise, to be sure...but a welcome one.

looking though it, a noticed a few things, mostly minor:

our Rhino no longer has the self-repair trick, and cost 5 pts more (presumably to cover the extra AP for its infernal combi-bolter). the wording of the upgrade rules sound like ou can put 2 infernal combi bolters and a havoc launcher on the rhino for only 90pts, which isn't bad, frankly, though i dont have the model yet so i dont know if thats possible without modding as i thought all the weapon options sit on the two forward hatches (id check the store, but its on a queue for the kill team pre-odrers).


as mentioned in previous posts, Tzaangor have the BRAY keyword, but notably the TZAANGOR keyword still exists separate to that. It seems odd to add in that one keyword for just this one unit to fix a problem that could have been fixed without using it, so prehaps this is a presage of other, non-tzaangor beastmen being involved in the rumoured Chaos codecii due in 2022?



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 11:05:07


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 BoomWolf wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
S
For the Tsons specific secondary, Wrath of Magnus seems auto take as long as opponent is not GK. And against GK, then we bring sorceress powers, which is simply psychic units or characters killed, they don't need to be killed by psychic. They can be killed by shooting and melee and it would still count as well.



False
The objective clearly states "in the psychic phase"

It does not count any melee or shooty kills, and ESPECIALLY against GK, you can't trust psyker kills.

The only reason to EVER take sorceress powers is against some fool who brings a lot of psykers in a non-psyker army, or maybe a mirrior match where the enemy has SO MANY psykers, but not the GK defense.


Ah, ok I double checked my codex (just got it). You are right, my apologies. So this is bad against GK. Not sure what this secondary is good for now. Wierd. Ah well, its only GK we can't take wrath of Magnus against. Just about every other faction its good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
well, my physical copy of the codex got here today, which was a suprise, to be sure...but a welcome one.

looking though it, a noticed a few things, mostly minor:

our Rhino no longer has the self-repair trick, and cost 5 pts more (presumably to cover the extra AP for its infernal combi-bolter). the wording of the upgrade rules sound like ou can put 2 infernal combi bolters and a havoc launcher on the rhino for only 90pts, which isn't bad, frankly, though i dont have the model yet so i dont know if thats possible without modding as i thought all the weapon options sit on the two forward hatches (id check the store, but its on a queue for the kill team pre-odrers).



I looked at mine. We can take double inferno bolters. And Havoc Launchers still only cost 5 to add. So we can make a super shooty Rhino with a 5++ for 90 points. It will have 8 inferno combi bolter shots plus d6 havoc launcher shots at 12 inches.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 11:35:31


Post by: xerxeskingofking


Eldenfirefly wrote:

I looked at mine. We can take double inferno bolters. And Havoc Launchers still only cost 5 to add. So we can make a super shooty Rhino with a 5++ for 90 points. It will have 8 inferno combi bolter shots plus d6 havoc launcher shots at 12 inches.


indeed, though the only issue (now that i can get on the site and look) is that the rhino kits only come with a single combi weapon, so you'd have to kitbash a 2nd one form somewhere onto the model, and then likely green stuff the havoc luancher onto the mortar hatches behind the cupolas (thank got for deamonic flesh-metal mutations, eh?).

maybe a gun form the termies? might be able use the spare left over from the soulreaper termie for it, i'll have to queue again and check the sprues. might be able to bodge that on one cupola, have the 2nd combi on its normal mount with a gunner shooting it, and the havocs firing over their heads form the mortar hatches.

edit: yhea, that looks like it should work, i'll just need to get some green stuff and bodge the parts together.

and i realised that while i might know that the large top mounted hatch on an APC is often called the mortar hatch (after the common practice of mounting a heavy infantry mortar in the passenger area and firing it though the roof as a way to improve the mobility of the motar teams), most other people wouldn't.

so yhea, the big top hatches on APCs are called Mortar hatches. Now you know, and this faction is ALL about knowledge....


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 12:51:42


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


xerxeskingofking wrote:
as mentioned in previous posts, Tzaangor have the BRAY keyword, but notably the TZAANGOR keyword still exists separate to that. It seems odd to add in that one keyword for just this one unit to fix a problem that could have been fixed without using it, so prehaps this is a presage of other, non-tzaangor beastmen being involved in the rumoured Chaos codecii due in 2022?



Yeeees ! Slaangors, Nurgors and Khorngors incoming ?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 13:08:02


Post by: BoomWolf


xerxeskingofking wrote:


as mentioned in previous posts, Tzaangor have the BRAY keyword, but notably the TZAANGOR keyword still exists separate to that. It seems odd to add in that one keyword for just this one unit to fix a problem that could have been fixed without using it, so prehaps this is a presage of other, non-tzaangor beastmen being involved in the rumoured Chaos codecii due in 2022?




Because the shaman effects all tzaangors, but only bray get ObjSec and are limited by rubric/scarab count.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 13:20:45


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


 BoomWolf wrote:
Because the shaman effects all tzaangors, but only bray get ObjSec and are limited by rubric/scarab count.


Ooooh...


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 13:27:18


Post by: Grotrebel


xerxeskingofking wrote:
indeed, though the only issue (now that i can get on the site and look) is that the rhino kits only come with a single combi weapon, so you'd have to kitbash a 2nd one form somewhere onto the model, and then likely green stuff the havoc luancher onto the mortar hatches behind the cupolas (thank got for deamonic flesh-metal mutations, eh?).

maybe a gun form the termies? might be able use the spare left over from the soulreaper termie for it, i'll have to queue again and check the sprues. might be able to bodge that on one cupola, have the 2nd combi on its normal mount with a gunner shooting it, and the havocs firing over their heads form the mortar hatches.


I bought myself the upper part of a Rubric Marine on ebay for that and just put him in that round hatch. Looks pretty cool as well, too bad i sold that Rhino because it was half painted and i thought i`d never play it.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 13:44:24


Post by: Eldenfirefly


A double inferno bolter Rhino is actually not too bad I feel. A pain to kill with the 5++. Plus it puts out 8 inferno shots at 12 inches. Plus it can charge two or more units, hold them up in combat, and we can even then spend 1CP on warpflame gargoyles to do d3 MW on each unit in engagement range.

I am kinda keen to try running one in one of my list. Had like 85 points left from building a list and there really wasn't anything else I could get with those kind of points. I might even play it without anyone in it on turn 1. Even empty it can do stuff.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 16:37:53


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


Finally got my Codex at my FLGS !

I was wondering: with the new upgraded force sword, what do you think is the best CC weapon for all our sorcerers now ? The Prosperine Kopesh or the scepter ?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 16:42:09


Post by: yukishiro1


You can't swap them unfortunately, you have to either pay another +5 points to ge both (exalted sorc) or replace the bolter (term sorc). In neither case is it really worth it I don't think. Though I guess it isn't a terrible way to boost your ES' points a little bit if you need to get him over a certain hump for while we stand.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/14 17:13:06


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


yukishiro1 wrote:
You can't swap them unfortunately, you have to either pay another +5 points to ge both (exalted sorc) or replace the bolter (term sorc). In neither case is it really worth it I don't think. Though I guess it isn't a terrible way to boost your ES' points a little bit if you need to get him over a certain hump for while we stand.


Damn ! I misread that !

That's sad, our base sorcerers can't even play with the new toy. Plus there's no bonus for having multiple melee weapons on our Exalted. But we can take a force axe on our termi sorcerer ?

Is it me or the data sheet of our Codex isn't written very well ? Like for example, when it's noted we can take one more combi-weapon on a vehicle (rhino, vindicators, etc...) the profile for those weapons aren't written in the weapon part of the sheet ?

To say nothing about rhinos not being able to fit cultist nor the bird boys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, here goes my first list using the new Codex:

Spoiler:
Battalion Cult of Prophecy, 1999 Pts, 9 CP, 11 Cabal Points

HQ:

- Daemon prince: Wings and sword. Warlord. WT: Guided by whispers. Relic: Warpweave mantle. Psy: Dark blessing, swelled by the warp.
- Exalted Sorcerer: Dilettante WT (using 1 CP): Seeker after shadows. Relic (using another CP): Pyhtic Brazier. Psy: Presage, Tzeentch's firestorm.
- Sorcerer: Psy: Glamour, Temporal Manipulation

Troup:

- Rubric x10: Warpflamer. Relic (using a third CP): Incandeum. Psy: Pyric flux

Elite:

- Scarab occult terminator x10: soulreaper x2, hellfire missiles x2. Rites of Coalescence Psy: Weaver of fates
- Hellbrute, lazcannon, missile
- Hellbrute, lazcannon, missile

Fast attack:

- Tzaangor enlightened x6 bows
- Tzaangor enlightened x6 spears
- Chaos spawn x1

Transport:

- Rhino combi-bolter x2, havoc

Heavy support:

- Mutalith
- Mutalith


It's by no mean a competitive list (as you can surely see). But it's a list made using mostly what I have, what I like and what I want to try out.

I wanted to try building around the Cult of prophecy WT and Relic. The DP will go ahead with the Rubric filled Rhino, the Mutaliths and the Disc birds as a distraction and to score some early points. Using the combo Warpweave (can't be charged at 9' or more) + Whispers (move 6' when charged) to hopefully survive a bit longer and have a good laugh .
Meanwhile I'll use the Brazier relic and the dice from Divine the future to boost the Hellbrutes in the back and pepper the opponent with the Scarabs.

I don't expect to win but I expect to have fun ! I think I'll take Engage, Mutate landscape (for the DP), and most likely wrath of Magnus.

Any thoughts ?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 00:04:34


Post by: dreadlybrew


Wooof. Coming up with solid combinations that can hold objectives in this book is rough.

Is one 10 man sot better than 2 5s?

Im.trying to approach a good delta of cabal points looking at like 14 to 17 as thr most i seem to be able to squeeze.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 00:10:33


Post by: yukishiro1


I think the question is less cabal points in the abstract and more how many you're going to have after a turn or two. People relying on a bunch of 5-man rubrics with icons for point generation are going to find that those 20 points that looked so great on paper quickly become 10 points. Whereas the 3 you get from an exalted sorc are presumably going to stick around most if not all of the game, unless you really screw up.



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 00:36:12


Post by: xeen


I am curious what people think of the mutation cult power. You don’t need to see the unit just the terrain feature. So can use against units close behind obscuring. Half move the -1 advance and charge. You can really pin down a big combat unit like terminators of all flavors to keep them out of the middle. Big anvil units of infantry seem to be in style now. Thoughts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am curious what people think of the mutation cult power. You don’t need to see the unit just the terrain feature. So can use against units close behind obscuring. Half move the -1 advance and charge. You can really pin down a big combat unit like terminators of all flavors to keep them out of the middle. Big anvil units of infantry seem to be in style now. Thoughts?


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 00:52:07


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 xeen wrote:

I am curious what people think of the mutation cult power. You don’t need to see the unit just the terrain feature. So can use against units close behind obscuring. Half move the -1 advance and charge. You can really pin down a big combat unit like terminators of all flavors to keep them out of the middle. Big anvil units of infantry seem to be in style now. Thoughts?


Hmm, interesting. It should certainly work. Does it work on Death Guard though? I remember Death Guard has this rule Inexorable advance which ignores movement modifiers ? It should definitely work on other infantry Anvils. Although, not sure if its worthwhile to go into cult of mutation just for that.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 00:52:46


Post by: yukishiro1


It's probably the best psychic power in the book. Problem is that the cult is hot garbage otherwise, so you're basically paying 2CP to get access to the power by taking a patrol. And I'm not sure people are going to find that worth it, when duplicity and prophecy are already so attractive.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 01:19:22


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I am liking more and more the idea of a 5 man spawn unit with Weaver of fates cast on it to give it a 4++ and backed up by a Daemon Prince with the warlord trait from Cult of Scheming (Grand Schemer). This gives it the obsec aura. So now, both the DP and the Chaos Spawn are obsec.

They are both good in combat and if both are obsec and have a 4++ save, that's a headache on an objective that you absolutely have to deal with. If you don't deal with them, they can then move into enemy deployment zone and charge, which is going to create even more problems. With warp time, the Spawn unit effectively has a 14 inch move and a flying DP has either a 12 inch move, or 11 inch move with Aethestride. There are interesting relics you can give to a DP too.

I am liking the idea of Cult of Scheming for a second patrol detachment. Would also like to talk about infernal master.

I think the Infernal master makes a perfect character to hold the DMC (the crystal that yeets). Firstly, the crystal goes off in the command phase and it only has a 6 inch range. So if you want to hide that big bloc of Terminators well back, you need another character with the crystal who is similarly well back deep in your own deployment lines safely. Even with a disc or with fly, it might not be easy to fly that person up to where you want after you have used the crystal.

Also, the yeet spell from cult of Duplicity also has a 6 inch range. So, now if you want to yeet another unit with that spell, you have to do that after you move. Which then means after you move, you also need to stay well back in safety. (Because the whole point of the yeeting is to yeet units well back forward to the midfield).

The infernal master is thus the idea castor to hold the crystal and cast the yeet spell. Firstly, he only has 1 psychic. Unlike most other castors we have. Secondly, he has infernal pact, many of which are very long range compared to psychic spells, so he is more likely to be in range with infernal pact. Even if he isn't in range because your units ended up all so far forward. He has one infernal pact he can do all game long called glimpse of eternity which is a great pact to use. It essentially gives us a free reroll. Thirdly, he is an infantry character. This is more important than you think because the tzaangor shaman is not infantry. So as an infantry character, the infernal master can also be called upon to perform actions for missions if need be. Be it psychic actions or raise the banners or anything else that might require actions. Last of all, is that the infernal pact is cast in the command phase. So you can cast an infernal pact in the command phase, and still perform a psychic action in the psychic phase. So the infernal master doesn't lose anything from performing a psychic action. Pretty nifty huh!



Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 01:34:00


Post by: xeen


I love the infernal master. So much utility. I like the +1 str on shooting for my leviathan which puts storm cannon to 8 and bombard to 9 both are very meaningful. Or get the re-roll. Also he is prime the use the 4 cabal points for 1 CP. at only 90 points can’t see why not to take him


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 02:05:50


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 xeen wrote:
I love the infernal master. So much utility. I like the +1 str on shooting for my leviathan which puts storm cannon to 8 and bombard to 9 both are very meaningful. Or get the re-roll. Also he is prime the use the 4 cabal points for 1 CP. at only 90 points can’t see why not to take him


That +1 Str in shooting is essentially worth a 2CP strategem wrath of the wronged if you apply it well. Have a Volkite contemptor and shooting at T6 or T7 ? That +1 str is now worth 2CP. Have a Forgefiend with 8 shots of str 8 Hades autocannon shooting at a T8 knight? Now its a Str 9 shot. Have a big block of Occult terminators firing into a bunch of T4 primaris, or need to shoot orcs? Now your infernal bolter shots are Str 5. There is almost zero situations where it isn't useful. (Unless you have nothing meaningful to shoot).

And the power is 24 inch range too. So your infernal master can be well back and likely still be in range to cast it on most of your stuff.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 02:37:31


Post by: xeen


Oh yea. I foresee taking the +1 str and re-roll basically every game.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 07:51:43


Post by: EightFoldPath


Two games Saturday, won by a 45 point margin both times, but it was against weaker codexes (an 8th edition one and an early 9th edition one). Sisters/GKnights/AdMech/Dark Eldar would currently worry me, first two as they have strong anti psyker and the last two as they bring so much for 2,000 points.

Overall it feels like a very high damage output army with both the psychic and shooting phases being strong and the melee phase also being ok with the right units.

Survivability is good but also depends on terrain and your opponent.

Speaking of the right units, Scarabs are fantastic, if only you could take more than 3 units!


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 20:22:30


Post by: dreadlybrew


I put together a pretty saucy dino list with 2 heldrakes and 3 forge fiends. There is a lot of firepower in there. And a considerable amount of anti tank for tsons


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 22:03:47


Post by: KurtAngle2


dreadlybrew wrote:
I put together a pretty saucy dino list with 2 heldrakes and 3 forge fiends. There is a lot of firepower in there. And a considerable amount of anti tank for tsons


Both are joke models: a Heldrake literally does 4 Baleflamer hits per turn at 165 pts whilst a Forgefiend is a wannabe Volkite Contemptor that deals considerably less damage whilst degrading and bot being able to shoot in melee if tagged. BLEH


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 22:11:46


Post by: Eldenfirefly


dreadlybrew wrote:
I put together a pretty saucy dino list with 2 heldrakes and 3 forge fiends. There is a lot of firepower in there. And a considerable amount of anti tank for tsons


Let us know how it goes. I am not quite sold on these yet, but maybe I am underestimating them.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/15 22:14:04


Post by: yukishiro1


The heldrake at least moves fast and can toggle aircraft, so it does something in an army that otherwise mostly lacks fast moving pieces. I definitely wouldn't take more than one, and I don't think it's the most competitive choice, but I can kinda see the attraction. Forgefiends unfortunately just feel kinda bad compared to contemptors or helbrutes.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 00:19:49


Post by: H.B.M.C.


KurtAngle2 wrote:
Both are joke models
Really? They're both "joke models" because they don't stack up against a type of Dread most people don't have, and most people don't have ready access to in the first place?

This ultra-competitive gak makes my skin crawl...


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 00:20:40


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I do think that any vehicle or big monster a Tsons list runs, that can serve to divert fire away from our Occult terminators is going to be useful even if it gets blown up on turn 1. Our Occults are going to do a lot of the heavy lifting in the list because they can shoot, can do psychic, they are durable and they can fight in close combat, and they are obsec... like wow. But they will end up attracting a lot of attention, so any other vehicle that we run that might attract enemy fire away from our Terminators, to me is a good thing.

So, I would run at least one or two vehicles just to draw enemy fire away from my Occult terminators.

In fact... this seems like an absolutely crazy idea. But I wonder how feasible it would be to run a super aggressive list based on a Land Raider. lol Now, hear me out, I haven't lost my marbles yet.

We do the usual, we crystal a 10 man Occult terminator squad up turn 1 near to a risen rubric squad. We then use the cult of duplicity spell to teleport up another occult squad. We fly up our characters with wings and dics up to join them. And then, as the finale, we push up a Land Raider with our last Occult squad in it 10 inches onto an objective in the midfield as well.

The Land Raider is going to be irritating to kill, it has 16W, T8, 2+ save and a 5++ save and I can blow smoke screen for a -1 to hit. Some armies will have nightmares trying to kill such a thing. It will shoot its guns and serve as a massive distraction carnefix. More importantly, I have 5 Occult terminators in it who now have a 9+d=d6 charge range. So, turn 1, I have pushed a rubric squad, a Land Raider and 3 occult terminator squads into the midfield. That could literally be my entire army (or most of it). An opponent is going to have a headache dealing with everything lol.

I would push the LR onto a separate objective than the rest of my deathball though, because a LR blowing up in the middle off my army is going to be nasty. So, one LR with the Occults in it can go for for example the left midfield objective, while the rest with their teleports and stuff all go for the right midfield objective. Our opponent doesn't have good options because even if he destroys that LR, a squad of 5 terminators will pop out onto the objective. And if he devotes so much shooting into my LR, that means he won't have much shooting left to go into my 10 man Occult squad, which is the true lynchpin of my entire army.

Maybe I have lost all my marbles... I am actually discussing using a Land Raider... lol If I run this, I would definitely need an Infernal Master for the Glimpse of Eternity reroll though. Losing a 40 point terminator if I roll a 1 getting out of a burning Land Raider is going to hurt! And I think its possible to run a chaos spawn unit in such an army without needing to buff them with weaver of fates. I mean, when you have a LR and 20 terminators and a rubric squad in the midfield... will you really be shooting at a chaos spawn squad with your heavy weapons? lol

If I do run a LR, people can't say I am running an oppressive list... lol But it has surprising synergy in the strategy of being aggressive in the midfield and being a big distraction carnefix. hmm...


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 14:53:59


Post by: dreadlybrew


Heldrakes are amazing for their points. In the meta of admech flyers they do a pretty decent job of knocking them out of the sky.

The trick will be getting them into hover mode so you can charge them turn 1.

My old super dinos list had 2 heldrakes before they were aircraft. This let them hold objectives and tie up most of the front line of my opponent turn 1with fall backs and forcing them to shoot at this stupid bird.

Now they are damage 2. 4 against aircraft.(if only that had been fliers)

Vector strikes also have a mortal wound place. Im going tonplay a few games with the tech and get back to you. There is also something to be said about the hades autocannon being str 8 ap -2 2 damage on the flier too. But the auto hitting is just too cherry.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 20:12:52


Post by: Daedalus81


KurtAngle2 wrote:
dreadlybrew wrote:
I put together a pretty saucy dino list with 2 heldrakes and 3 forge fiends. There is a lot of firepower in there. And a considerable amount of anti tank for tsons


Both are joke models: a Heldrake literally does 4 Baleflamer hits per turn at 165 pts whilst a Forgefiend is a wannabe Volkite Contemptor that deals considerably less damage whilst degrading and bot being able to shoot in melee if tagged. BLEH


No, don't discount them.

You're going to WANT Heldrakes when you see the number of planes Orks are packing. The flamer also shoots into combat.

Forgefiends are awesome plasma boats. Maybe a little expensive with the cannons and plasma head, but still a ton of hot death. A full plasma FF kills 2 to 3 Gravis and 2 terminators if you kick it to S8. Given that you're killing 80 to 100 points each time for 155 is not bad at all.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 20:45:24


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Daedalus81 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
dreadlybrew wrote:
I put together a pretty saucy dino list with 2 heldrakes and 3 forge fiends. There is a lot of firepower in there. And a considerable amount of anti tank for tsons


Both are joke models: a Heldrake literally does 4 Baleflamer hits per turn at 165 pts whilst a Forgefiend is a wannabe Volkite Contemptor that deals considerably less damage whilst degrading and bot being able to shoot in melee if tagged. BLEH


No, don't discount them.

You're going to WANT Heldrakes when you see the number of planes Orks are packing. The flamer also shoots into combat.

Forgefiends are awesome plasma boats. Maybe a little expensive with the cannons and plasma head, but still a ton of hot death. A full plasma FF kills 2 to 3 Gravis and 2 terminators if you kick it to S8. Given that you're killing 80 to 100 points each time for 155 is not bad at all.


Except that Forgefiends can't push the weapon to S8 because it's not a common plasma but D3 S7 AP-3 D3 shots


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 20:49:17


Post by: Daedalus81


KurtAngle2 wrote:
Except that Forgefiends can't push the weapon to S8 because it's not a common plasma but D3 S7 AP-3 D3 shots


+1S buff from Infernal Master


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 20:50:46


Post by: Arachnofiend


I assume Daedalus is buffing the forgefiend with Malefic Maelstrom. Definitely warps the points comparison if that's the case but the Infernal Master has other stuff he can do at the same time as well (the 24" range on pacts gives you soooo much more freedom than Dark Apostles get).


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 20:57:30


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Daedalus81 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Except that Forgefiends can't push the weapon to S8 because it's not a common plasma but D3 S7 AP-3 D3 shots


+1S buff from Infernal Master


To ONE unit for 3D3 (i.e. 6 shots) shots...I'd rather have the Infernal Master cast the dice reroll and -1 Charge/Advance than a +1S buff on a single model unit with relatively few shots


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 21:07:24


Post by: yukishiro1


If you really want a forgefiend you take the Hades cannon version IMO, the plasma is pulling you in two different directions because not being core it can't take advantage of any range-based synergies, but it can't be off on its own either because if it gets tagged it gets totally shut down. At least the butcher cannon version can shoot into melee with 8 shots and fight with 5 vaguely decent attacks.

Though at that point it really is looking like a bad contemptor - which it kinda looks like no matter what, TBH.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 21:24:27


Post by: KurtAngle2


yukishiro1 wrote:
If you really want a forgefiend you take the Hades cannon version IMO, the plasma is pulling you in two different directions because not being core it can't take advantage of any range-based synergies, but it can't be off on its own either because if it gets tagged it gets totally shut down. At least the butcher cannon version can shoot into melee with 8 shots and fight with 5 vaguely decent attacks.

Though at that point it really is looking like a bad contemptor - which it kinda looks like no matter what, TBH.


Also the Volkite Contemptors being CORE can actually benefit from one of the strongest relics you can possibly have for them (Egleighen's Orrery), meaning that you literally bypass every defensive rule bar old style FNP rolls


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 21:41:54


Post by: Daedalus81


KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Except that Forgefiends can't push the weapon to S8 because it's not a common plasma but D3 S7 AP-3 D3 shots


+1S buff from Infernal Master


To ONE unit for 3D3 (i.e. 6 shots) shots...I'd rather have the Infernal Master cast the dice reroll and -1 Charge/Advance than a +1S buff on a single model unit with relatively few shots


It comes down to the priority at the time and the use cases within the army. Some days you're going to really want flat 3 damage - especially in mirror matches ( they'll toss up -1D, but you pulled it out of them ). You can live without it, but if you have it there is a consideration to be made.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Also the Volkite Contemptors being CORE can actually benefit from one of the strongest relics you can possibly have for them (Egleighen's Orrery), meaning that you literally bypass every defensive rule bar old style FNP rolls


Right, but ignoring damage reduction when shooting W3 models with a D2 gun won't matter so much. Shooting at Terminators means a bunch of anemic D2 followed by a couple MW. That isn't to say take FF over Contemptor/Orrey, but there's a time and a place.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 22:07:04


Post by: KurtAngle2


 Daedalus81 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Except that Forgefiends can't push the weapon to S8 because it's not a common plasma but D3 S7 AP-3 D3 shots


+1S buff from Infernal Master


To ONE unit for 3D3 (i.e. 6 shots) shots...I'd rather have the Infernal Master cast the dice reroll and -1 Charge/Advance than a +1S buff on a single model unit with relatively few shots


It comes down to the priority at the time and the use cases within the army. Some days you're going to really want flat 3 damage - especially in mirror matches ( they'll toss up -1D, but you pulled it out of them ). You can live without it, but if you have it there is a consideration to be made.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Also the Volkite Contemptors being CORE can actually benefit from one of the strongest relics you can possibly have for them (Egleighen's Orrery), meaning that you literally bypass every defensive rule bar old style FNP rolls


Right, but ignoring damage reduction when shooting W3 models with a D2 gun won't matter so much. Shooting at Terminators means a bunch of anemic D2 followed by a couple MW. That isn't to say take FF over Contemptor/Orrey, but there's a time and a place.


Who the feth plays 3W models spam that can't be efficiently killed by D2 weapons anyway, the real counter to volkites are 2+ armor and -1 Damage (the latter of which is completely spammed in most codices and profiles) and with such relic you are giving a giant middle finger to resilent -1D platforms that are going to get blasted off the table


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 22:13:53


Post by: yukishiro1


Being able to put -1AP on a volkite contemptor for a CP is interesting too; it's usually not a great use of a point but if you have a fully buffed volkite contemptor that's going into something with a 2+ that you can take to a 3+ instead, that suddenly becomes quite attractive as a trump card to pull out when you really need it.


Cabbalistic Rituals! 9th Ed. TSons tactics! @ 2021/08/16 22:57:48


Post by: Daedalus81


KurtAngle2 wrote:

Who the feth plays 3W models spam that can't be efficiently killed by D2 weapons anyway, the real counter to volkites are 2+ armor and -1 Damage (the latter of which is completely spammed in most codices and profiles) and with such relic you are giving a giant middle finger to resilent -1D platforms that are going to get blasted off the table


Deathguard, Thousand Sons & Dark Angels terminators, Ork warbikes, Gravis, Admech ( if the nerfs ever make Kataphrons endure ), Court of the Archon, Spawn, Killa Kans, Skorpekhs & Wraiths, Mortifiers