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Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/08 16:55:47


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


How do!

Fog up, apologies for the pathetic headline, I just wanted your attention. And to set out the discussion topic wouldn’t fit the topic limit.

So I’ve been selectively watching Daredevil’s most fighty moments. You know the ones. The ones in corridors. Those ones. Yeah, now you’ve keyed in.

Daredevil does well in those not due to his super powers, but sheer skill and indeed talent.

If you’ve not seen the show? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV1Vzn6xwqQ

Right, now imagine DD as even an unarmoured Astartes in that scrap. Every hit a kill. The unarmed opponents doing absolutely no lasting harm.

At the Astartes level, you probably don’t need to know or even be proficient in any given martial art. Because short of anti-tank weapons, you’re just gonna keep on going and going and going and going. You don’t tire. You don’t feel stress or fear as us weedy mortals do.

If you get a clean punch as someone’s head? That’s…..that’s curtains for your foe. Kick to the chest? You’ll need to shake their ragged corpse off your feets.

With so much raw power at your disposal? Why not go the Brock Lesnar (a magnificent athlete) route in WWE (where for my money he’s a poor entertainer) and just Splunge your way to victory by only ever doing three moves?

I mean, if even a casual cheeky love tap is going to be terminal, why bother beyond the good old (and psychologically effective) Splunge?

The answer is simple.

Astartes are well established as not just being inhumanly strong, but also inhumanly fast.

Imagine a Heavy Weight boxer with the speed of, well….this movie scene.




Then add in that their power armour adds to their strength, but barely reduces their speed. Understand that a fully armoured Astartes can do that, and more.]

The poor sod that gets the old Fist Solo to the chest and face? Pulped. Literally nothing in the head and chest region left recognisably human.

Astartes are effing terrifying. Not because of their strength (which is pants filling on its own), but because they’re so, sodding, fast.

Mob them? Ever seen 10 men’s heads get punched clean of their shoulders? No, of course you haven’t. That’d be silly. Very silly indeed. Because not matter how big, buff and trained you are? We remain weedy humans. Yet Astartes can do it. Because they’re carefully designed to do it.

I don’t care how naught you are. How revolutionary your political intent. If any of us saw an Astartes doing what they do? We’d all fall in line.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/08 17:03:38


Post by: Llamahead


Now remember something else their opponents. Against an Eldar there faster against an Ork they are almost as strong and tough. Some Tyranids manage to combine both and Necrons are slowere but even more resilient. 40k is terrifying.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/08 17:10:44


Post by: Nerak


I see two problems with this line of reasoning. The first being the opposition. The second being the astartes training. First problem. The opposition the astartes face is usually very competent. Eldar, necrons, tyranids and orks all have inhuman physics that let them to a greater or lesser extent fight on equal grounds with astartes. Yes the inhuman speed of an astartes would destroy a human. But imagine the fear of seing that speed and strength matched or even overcome. You'd probably collapse in fear.

Second is that astartes are trained in manners far surpassing that of any currently alive depicted hero. They only recquire very little to no sleep and spend almost all their time awake studying war and combat. You're not looking at just someone swinging away, using their strength and speed to their advantage. You are also looking at someone who knows every aspect of close quarter combat and can probably predict an outcome long before the first fist is swung.

As a side note I wanted to include this clip since you mentioned hallway fights. Probably the best hallway fight scene ever put to film, from the movie old boy.



Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/08 17:48:20


Post by: epronovost


Euh Astartes have been shown to be killed by simple lasguns on several occasions. They are not immune to small arm fire, just resistant to them. It be like wearing a good quality armored vest and screaming "I AM BULLET PROOF, NOTHING CAN HARM ME!". Armored vest don't work like that. Astartes are very fast, but they are not inhumanly fast either. In many novels and source material, highly trained humans do dodge or even parry blows from Space Marines. Hell, some humans even engage them in close combat and kill them like that. They aren't superheroes, at least not until they reach an august rank and are basically capable of curb stomping other Space Marines. They are "just" super soldiers.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/08 18:17:40


Post by: superkuf


1) Ninjas worked against human enemies, in prepared operations. They (as far as we know historically, different than Hollywood) infiltrated enemy camps and gathered information/assassinated leaders. But in WH40K the enemy is often non-human and there is no time for slow infiltrations - the Ork invasion must be stopped NOW! Or the Eldar psykers/Necrons sensors will nocite any human, ninja or not, within 500 meters. So the whole idea of "astarte ninjas in WH40K" is suboptimal.

2) The Imperium have already filled the role of ninjas, but with cheaper or more specialised assets. The Callidus assassin is the super-ninja and can do far more sneaky things than an Astartes. In general the Inquisition does a lot of ninja stuff and storm troopers are trained for infiltration/assassination, although in a more kinetic way. By adding a psyker to a squad it may be as sneaky as any ninja, Astartes or not. The Mechanicum have in lore had tech-assassins that could infiltrate other Magos Forges, and they could probably be used against xenos or heretics.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/08 18:39:48


Post by: Vatsetis


If a fully equipped Astartes tried to do what DD does in that corridor the level of destruction would be so large that probably the whole building will collapse on top of him... if the Astartes is not killed because of plot armor, it will be rendered useless until rescued.

You cannot be Hulk and Batman at the same time.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/08 19:16:46


Post by: BrianDavion


You cannot be Hulk and Batman at the same time.


... Why not? what's stopping someone whom is large and strong from utilizing stealth?


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/08 19:29:37


Post by: epronovost


BrianDavion wrote:
You cannot be Hulk and Batman at the same time.


... Why not? what's stopping someone whom is large and strong from utilizing stealth?


Well if you are very large, you are by definition easier to spot than a very small person. If you are very large, you are very heavy which means you are also more noisy than a light footed person. That doesn't strictly prevent you from being stealthy (though up to certain point it becomes impossible), but you will never be as good as a small light person if you are large and heavy at stealth if you both train similarly to that task. There are bodies that are more appropriate for certain task. If you want to sneak around unnoticed in my garden, a 7 years old clever little girl will have a tremendous advantage over an enormous mountain like wrestler, but if it comes to beating the gak out of me, the later will have a tremendous advantage. So no, you can't always have the butter and the money for the butter.

Also there is the point of being a stealthy assassin-like type of fighter and some sort of massive hulk that smashes people like glass. If each time you punch someone you splatter them like insect and burst them through walls, you are not exactly stealthy there. You can't pulverize people (and much of the environment in the process) and be considered stealthy. You can't fight and have the size of the Hulk, but do the things Batman does. They are completely different sets of skills that requires completely different kinds of people. That's why, though gymnast are freakishly strong in some ways, they are very different in body type and style than boxers who are themselves very different than weightlifters who are themselves very different then weigh throwers, etc.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/08 19:32:57


Post by: BrianDavion


epronovost wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
You cannot be Hulk and Batman at the same time.


... Why not? what's stopping someone whom is large and strong from utilizing stealth?


Well if you are very large, you are by definition easier to spot than a very small person. If you are very large, you are very heavy which means you are also more noisy than a light footed person. That doesn't strictly prevent you from being stealthy (though up to certain point it becomes impossible), but you will never be as good as a small light person if you are large and heavy at stealth if you both train similarly to that task. There are bodies that are more appropriate for certain task. If you want to sneak around unnoticed in my garden, a 7 years old clever little girl will have a tremendous advantage over an enormous mountain like wrestler, but if it comes to beating the gak out of me, the later will have a tremendous advantage. So no, you can't always have the butter and the money for the butter.

Also there is the point of being a stealthy assassin-like type of fighter and some sort of massive hulk that smashes people like glass. If each time you punch someone you splatter them like insect and burst them through walls, you are not exactly stealthy there. You can't pulverize people (and much of the environment in the process) and be considered stealthy. You can't fight and have the size of the Hulk, but do the things Batman does. They are completely different sets of skills that requires completely different kinds of people. That's why, though gymnast are freakishly strong in some ways, they are very different in body type and style than boxers who are themselves very different than weightlifters who are themselves very different then weigh throwers, etc.


killing everyone in the area before they can report your presence IS a form of stealth


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/08 19:41:28


Post by: epronovost


BrianDavion wrote:
killing everyone in the area before they can report your presence IS a form of stealth


The problem is that if you do the killing "Hulk style" people a block away will be able to hear and report you and you won't even know it. The same goes if you get building and start punching people through walls. Your element of surprise disappears almost in an instant and everybody can call for help or make enough of noise to attract attention. No "killing everyone" isn't stealth. The hard part of stealth is the "before they can report your presence" and shock and awe power armored giant a terrible at that.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/08 19:54:30


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


This is of course where Primaris (searches correct term) Reivers come in, given their armour has baffles and silencing systems to make them quite as a mouse.

Is it full plate power armour? No.

Does it do pretty much the same job, except you can totally sneak around in it? Yup.

Just imagine that. An Astartes in Reiver armour popping out of nowhere, and not just putting your head through the wall, but happily following you through it for the lols. All the time striking with the speed and precision of Donny Yen in the Ip Man scene.

I like to consider myself fairly brave for someone who’s never really been in an average “new pants please” type situation. But I can tell you, seeing that level of speed, violence and stealth? Regardless of which side I’m on? I’d be passing my kidneys in a fraction of a second.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/08 20:06:22


Post by: epronovost


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
This is of course where Primaris (searches correct term) Reivers come in, given their armour has baffles and silencing systems to make them quite as a mouse.

Is it full plate power armour? No.

Does it do pretty much the same job, except you can totally sneak around in it? Yup.

Just imagine that. An Astartes in Reiver armour popping out of nowhere, and not just putting your head through the wall, but happily following you through it for the lols. All the time striking with the speed and precision of Donny Yen in the Ip Man scene.

I like to consider myself fairly brave for someone who’s never really been in an average “new pants please” type situation. But I can tell you, seeing that level of speed, violence and stealth? Regardless of which side I’m on? I’d be passing my kidneys in a fraction of a second.


Compare a 8 foot giant in a perfectly silent plate armor (plate armor is not noisy btw unless you make contact with other hard surfaces) to a 3 foot tall fleet footed ratling in adaptive camo cloak. One is armed with a knife and a submachine shaped mini-rocket launcher, the other with a rifle that shoot poisoned needles at near supersonic speed thanks to an electric impulse (thus no recoil or sound). One will struggle to be as stealthy as a guardsman in flak armor, the other will kill you without you even noticing he was there is in the first place. One needs to be within a few hundred meters of you to kill you, the other could be a kilometer away. No, even in the best conditions, a Space Marines struggles to do what a less skilled human can do in the department of stealth and sneaking around.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 08:55:40


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Others being naturally stealthier doesn’t preclude stealthy Astartes being efficient.

I’d even wager losing someone to an unseen Sniper is a good deal less unsettling than an 8’ foot tall post human successfully infiltrating your base, and then unleashing horrific levels of violence. Because once they’re in, they don’t really care if you know they’re present.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 09:51:47


Post by: Vatsetis


Why dont we have an eye rolling ork moticon

So astartes dont need to be sealthy at all because they are unstoppable juggernauts whos mere pressence just make most foes to panic and despair... But somehow they do stealth just for hubris and the cool factor?


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 09:52:14


Post by: BrianDavion


marines really just have to be stealthy eneugh to spot you before you spot them


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 11:10:29


Post by: Da Boss


Space Marines always have to be the best at everything, that is the point of the 40K setting. Stands to reason they'd be amazing ninjas.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 11:18:33


Post by: beast_gts


In the novels there are Deathwatch Marines who use carapace or lighter armour so they can sneak around.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 11:27:49


Post by: BrianDavion


 Da Boss wrote:
Space Marines always have to be the best at everything, that is the point of the 40K setting. Stands to reason they'd be amazing ninjas.



TBH I expect Marine stealth is differant from say.. Ninjitsu.

Things to consider about space Marines, despite their size they have some pretty key advantages, superior sight, hearing and even small to humans, augmented by the autosenses in their armor Marines likely can adjust course, take cover etc,

Marines likely can avoid contact with unaugmented troops when they need to.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 11:28:28


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


BrianDavion wrote:
marines really just have to be stealthy eneugh to spot you before you spot them
Honestly, that applies to just about every form of stealth!

But yes - Space Marines absolutely can be both strong, fast, and stealthy where necessary. Why? Because the lore claims so, and make no claims counter to that.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 11:32:56


Post by: BrianDavion


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
marines really just have to be stealthy eneugh to spot you before you spot them
Honestly, that applies to just about every form of stealth!


it does but we know Marines have super sharp senses soo...


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 11:37:50


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Plus an Astartes doesn’t need to get out of there once rumbled. Instead, they’ll just squish everyone in the local vicinity with their trademark ultra violence.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 11:38:27


Post by: Da Boss


Also it's really confusing to the enemy that they have such bright colouration, and that helps to baffle them and increases the marine's stealthiness.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 11:44:15


Post by: Iracundus


Thematically if you want ninjas, I think you should be looking at Imperial Assassins, or Eldar Exarchs and Phoenix Lords. After all they are basically mystical martial arts masters.




From 1:52 onwards if you want space ninja action and especially 3:45-4:15.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 11:50:00


Post by: BrianDavion


 Da Boss wrote:
Also it's really confusing to the enemy that they have such bright colouration, and that helps to baffle them and increases the marine's stealthiness.


marines will employ camo where nesscary. there's some examples of it


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 11:56:23


Post by: Gert


Honestly, I would be more afraid if a bright blue and gold giant managed to sneak into my command bunker than one wearing camo pattern.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 13:01:40


Post by: Vatsetis


BrianDavion wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
Also it's really confusing to the enemy that they have such bright colouration, and that helps to baffle them and increases the marine's stealthiness.


marines will employ camo where nesscary. there's some examples of it


The best camo for a Marine is to cover in the blood and guts of their enemies... that way their foes wont be able to locate them in the carnage that will ensure the moment that the Astartes engage in close quarters... after all a human, ork or tyranid will just turn into a red, green, ¿purple? mist the moment the Astartes fist come nearby


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/09 18:55:54


Post by: epronovost


 Gert wrote:
Honestly, I would be more afraid if a bright blue and gold giant managed to sneak into my command bunker than one wearing camo pattern.


I'd be really afraid. It would mean my troops are spectacularly incompetent to a degree that's almost unimaginable.

As for the advantages provided by their senses, this is indeed playing in their favor, but makes them good at spotting infiltrator not so much at infiltrating themselves. Space Marines work well as guards and sentry because they are really tough to kill, especially to kill swiftly and silently, they have super sharp senses that can't be fooled easily, never sleep, wear armors that makes them in constant communication with their leaders, wear brightly colored armors that makes them easy to spot for other sentries and are imposing and menacing. Good luck taking them out "ninja style". Space Marines are perfect for counter stealth operation, but at their weakest in stealth operation.

Space Marines being great at stealth and sabotage is extremely stupid. Some might be capable of doing in a pinch, but they are not naturally apt to it. It's also important to note the difference between stealth and infiltration mission and covert or clandestine operations. Nothing prevents Space Marines from being exceptional at the later two. The difference between a covert and regular operation is the level of military secrecy surrounding it.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 07:55:09


Post by: Vector Strike


Well, Raven Guard marines do the 'stealth giant' thing pretty well


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 13:08:22


Post by: GoldenHorde


In this thread: Terribly unrealistic goon fight scenes from cheesy films that are beyond laughable and the posters inspired by said nonsense who overinflate what space marines can do in a way that does not match lore, fluff nor anything depicted in the gane since its inception.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 13:24:48


Post by: Deadnight


A good example of marine stealth was operation sedna during the badab war. Due to plot reasons, they couldn't assault directly. So instead, A combined force (iirc couple hundred...)of Raptors and Salamanders made planet fall a few hundred kilometres from their target. Over the course of 3 weeks (I think) they moved on foot towards the location and once in position launched a devastating attack.





Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 13:42:11


Post by: kirotheavenger


They're looking for army guys, the bright yellow marines can just slip right past.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 14:04:37


Post by: Vatsetis


 kirotheavenger wrote:
They're looking for army guys, the bright yellow marines can just slip right past.


Brilliant move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadnight wrote:
A good example of marine stealth was operation sedna during the badab war. Due to plot reasons, they couldn't assault directly. So instead, A combined force (iirc couple hundred...)of Raptors and Salamanders made planet fall a few hundred kilometres from their target. Over the course of 3 weeks (I think) they moved on foot towards the location and once in position launched a devastating attack.



Those Marines were indeed taking things with calm and patience... Covering 15/20km a day is something most conscripts can do without a huge stress... Since they are superfast superninjas probably they were ussing that three week period as an undercover holiday.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 21:26:54


Post by: epronovost


 Vector Strike wrote:
Well, Raven Guard marines do the 'stealth giant' thing pretty well


Actually, it would be more reasonable to state that they are the best Space Marines at stealth and that pretty much all of their operations fall under the umbrella of clandestine operations. That doesn't mean they are actually all that good at it compared to let's say, the best light recon infantry regiments of the Imperial Guard or the best recon Hunter Cadre of the Tau (who literally have invisible dudes).


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 21:31:54


Post by: BrianDavion


Vatsetis wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
They're looking for army guys, the bright yellow marines can just slip right past.


Brilliant move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadnight wrote:
A good example of marine stealth was operation sedna during the badab war. Due to plot reasons, they couldn't assault directly. So instead, A combined force (iirc couple hundred...)of Raptors and Salamanders made planet fall a few hundred kilometres from their target. Over the course of 3 weeks (I think) they moved on foot towards the location and once in position launched a devastating attack.



Those Marines were indeed taking things with calm and patience... Covering 15/20km a day is something most conscripts can do without a huge stress... Since they are superfast superninjas probably they were ussing that three week period as an undercover holiday.


do those conscript do it through an active warzone while taking an indirect path through the area to purposefully avoid enemy patrols?

No? then not comparable also a few hundred kilometers is a pretty vague word, 400 kilometers for example is "a few hundred" and assuming a 20 kilometers a day pace, you're looking at 20 days to make that trip.......
gee THATS APPROXMIATLY 3 WEEKS!


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 21:43:13


Post by: Gert


epronovost wrote:
Actually, it would be more reasonable to state that they are the best Space Marines at stealth and that pretty much all of their operations fall under the umbrella of clandestine operations. That doesn't mean they are actually all that good at it compared to let's say, the best light recon infantry regiments of the Imperial Guard or the best recon Hunter Cadre of the Tau (who literally have invisible dudes).

The Raven Guard are noted as being so good at stealth that even Space Marines struggle with them.
There is a scene in one of the Uriel Ventris novels where five Raven Guard hide in the shadows during a gathering of the Ultramarines masters of the Chapter, including Sgt. Telion one of the best Scouts of all, and not a single Astartes (barring Calgar and Tigirius who knew they were on world) even noticed them until they revealed themselves. IIRC Ventris even mulls on the idea that the entire command element of the Chapter could have been wiped out before they could raise their weapons.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 21:44:33


Post by: epronovost


BrianDavion wrote:
do those conscript do it through an active warzone while taking an indirect path through the area to purposefully avoid enemy patrols?


That's basically the basic standard of operation for light infantry. You try to avoid falling in enemy ambush and try not to get located.

No? then not comparable also a few hundred kilometers is a pretty vague word, 400 kilometers for example is "a few hundred" and assuming a 20 kilometers a day pace, you're looking at 20 days to make that trip.......
gee THATS APPROXMIATLY 3 WEEKS!


Hence why it's not that impressive. It's the sort of feat you would expect from Imperial Guard soldiers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
epronovost wrote:
Actually, it would be more reasonable to state that they are the best Space Marines at stealth and that pretty much all of their operations fall under the umbrella of clandestine operations. That doesn't mean they are actually all that good at it compared to let's say, the best light recon infantry regiments of the Imperial Guard or the best recon Hunter Cadre of the Tau (who literally have invisible dudes).

The Raven Guard are noted as being so good at stealth that even Space Marines struggle with them.
There is a scene in one of the Uriel Ventris novels where five Raven Guard hide in the shadows during a gathering of the Ultramarines masters of the Chapter, including Sgt. Telion one of the best Scouts of all, and not a single Astartes (barring Calgar and Tigirius who knew they were on world) even noticed them until they revealed themselves. IIRC Ventris even mulls on the idea that the entire command element of the Chapter could have been wiped out before they could raise their weapons.


Which doesn't make any sense to "hide in the shadows" since ALL Space Marines have perfect night vision and night vision helmets. They see in the dark. You can't use darkness as cover against a Space Marine. They see perfectly well in the dark and so do Eldars, Tau and Necron (and most elite human troops) either thanks to their helmets or their good ol' peepers. What you have here is called "gak writing" where the author of that scene forgot the rules of his own universe. For that scene to make sense, either the Raven Guard used a spell to conceal themselves or Space Marines actually don't see in the dark.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 21:58:22


Post by: Gert


epronovost wrote:
Which doesn't make any sense to "hide in the shadows" since ALL Space Marines have perfect night vision and night vision helmets. They see in the dark. You can't use darkness as cover against a Space Marine. They see perfectly well in the dark and so do Eldars, Tau and Necron (and most elite human troops) either thanks to their helmets or their good ol' peepers. What you have here is called "gak writing" where the author of that scene forgot the rules of his own universe. For that scene to make sense, either the Raven Guard used a spell to conceal themselves or Space Marines actually don't see in the dark.

Or, and hear me out, the Raven Guard stealth ability is exceptionally good. Raven Guard are said to be able to literally melt into darkness and shadow, which you could take as hyperbole but when it's a repeated concept across the board and not just one writer then it's hard to dismiss. How are the Tanith so good at stealth? They're just humans with camo cloaks. Could it be because their training and skills mean that they excel where others don't? No that couldn't possibly be true.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 22:13:30


Post by: epronovost


 Gert wrote:

Or, and hear me out, the Raven Guard stealth ability is exceptionally good. Raven Guard are said to be able to literally melt into darkness and shadow, which you could take as hyperbole but when it's a repeated concept across the board and not just one writer then it's hard to dismiss.


How is that even an argument? Being skillful implies that you are great at avoiding detection "standing in the open" isn't being good at avoiding detection. It's the opposite of that. Space Marine see in pitch darkness. Standing in the shadows is basically standing in the open. This scene is simply terrible at describing any sort of stealth skill or it implies Marines don't see in the dark neither with their eyes and neither with their equipment.

How are the Tanith so good at stealth? They're just humans with camo cloaks. Could it be because their training and skills mean that they excel where others don't? No that couldn't possibly be true.


Both. They have no armor to speak off, soft clothing, great stealth doctrine and adaptive camouflage equipment. They also aren't 8 foot tall giants built like armored doors hiding in the shadows (that takes pretty big shadows to hide such big people) from people who see perfectly well in darkness. That's why they are believably competent. They have a mix of skills, tools and body shape appropriate for stealth and even then they aren't perfect.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 22:21:59


Post by: Gert


epronovost wrote:
How is that even an argument? Being skillful implies that you are great at avoiding detection "standing in the open" isn't being good at avoiding detection. It's the opposite of that. Space Marine see in pitch darkness. Standing in the shadows is basically standing in the open. This scene is simply terrible at describing any sort of stealth skill or it implies Marines don't see in the dark neither with their eyes and neither with their equipment.

So standing completely in the open, as you put it, yet being completely unseen by people who have natural night vision isn't skill. Mk. Whatever my dude.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 23:18:46


Post by: epronovost


 Gert wrote:
epronovost wrote:
How is that even an argument? Being skillful implies that you are great at avoiding detection "standing in the open" isn't being good at avoiding detection. It's the opposite of that. Space Marine see in pitch darkness. Standing in the shadows is basically standing in the open. This scene is simply terrible at describing any sort of stealth skill or it implies Marines don't see in the dark neither with their eyes and neither with their equipment.

So standing completely in the open, as you put it, yet being completely unseen by people who have natural night vision isn't skill. Mk. Whatever my dude.


That's because of a terrible writer who probably forgot that Space Marines could see in the dark. It's just plain bad writing. You might like it and not care for it, but it's still terrible writing. That scene is basically "worfing" on easy mode (and worfing is already a lazy way to establish skills or threat level). You can't stand in the open and not be seen by people who are just a little bit attentive or not brain dead. It's not skill to do literally nothing to be stealthy and not get noticed. It's basically incredible incompetence from the other party at best. At that point, GW could have went just an extra mile and declare that all Space Marines are mildly magical and that their power varies from Chapter to Chapter. The Raven Guard magical ability is to turn invisible in darkness or dense shadows. Of course that would require all of them to be psykers and anti-psyker technique would work to counter it or even make them easy to spot. They did no such thing so managed to avoid an easy cop-out built in any science-fantasy universe.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/10 23:52:10


Post by: Hellebore


Meh, the power fantasy of space marines just gets elevated as childhood fans of 40k become the new custodians of the lore, pushing it to a more and more flanderised absurdity.

So long as it's a positive adjective, marines have it. Even if its ostensibly contradictory. Why? Because an author decided to write it that way.

And if we're deciding that if something was written that way then it must be true so long as it makes marines look good, then I suppose it's canon that terminators can backflip because CS Goto wrote that they could...


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 01:33:12


Post by: TheBestBucketHead


I don't think Astartes need to be particularly stealthy. Based on their enhanced senses, they could work better on avoidance, and while that may sound similar, they're probably not just crouching behind boxes and through air vents, but avoiding areas with active guardsmen, taking out a guard before they can react because of their enhanced reflexes. They could go to areas in which guard start to slack because the news of space marines came a month ago, and there's been no sightings. And then, once they're in, murderhobo their way to victory.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 02:02:42


Post by: BrianDavion


 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I don't think Astartes need to be particularly stealthy. Based on their enhanced senses, they could work better on avoidance, and while that may sound similar, they're probably not just crouching behind boxes and through air vents, but avoiding areas with active guardsmen, taking out a guard before they can react because of their enhanced reflexes. They could go to areas in which guard start to slack because the news of space marines came a month ago, and there's been no sightings. And then, once they're in, murderhobo their way to victory.


exactly. it's like the case of rarely seeing a wild animal because by time you'd see them they've already seen/heard/smelt you and vamoosed.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 02:33:37


Post by: cody.d.


Seems like a big armored super human would be better suited to setting ambushes. Finding a place you expect the target to come to, settling into a hidey hole with some camo and letting your suits support systems and discipline let you stay in place until the target comes by.

Then again, corax was noted to have a physic ability to be sorta invisible, as did a small number of the space marines in his legion. The thousand sons also used some pretty powerful not magic to infiltrate, like having magnus, that huge sod, look like a regular old marine.

But in most situations, if you wanted one person to get into a secure location and kill another person, the inquisition and the assassins would be a better choice surely?

Then again, the real question is. If you can teleport a bunch of terminators into a bunker to kill the command structure, why in the world can you just stick a bomb on said teleporter platform to do the job for a fraction of the investment. Besides of course, space monks and code of honour type stuff.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 02:45:48


Post by: BrianDavion


cody.d. wrote:
Seems like a big armored super human would be better suited to setting ambushes. Finding a place you expect the target to come to, settling into a hidey hole with some camo and letting your suits support systems and discipline let you stay in place until the target comes by.

Then again, corax was noted to have a physic ability to be sorta invisible, as did a small number of the space marines in his legion. The thousand sons also used some pretty powerful not magic to infiltrate, like having magnus, that huge sod, look like a regular old marine.

But in most situations, if you wanted one person to get into a secure location and kill another person, the inquisition and the assassins would be a better choice surely?

Then again, the real question is. If you can teleport a bunch of terminators into a bunker to kill the command structure, why in the world can you just stick a bomb on said teleporter platform to do the job for a fraction of the investment. Besides of course, space monks and code of honour type stuff.



Because the problem with a bomb is they're imprecise. it'll blow up the room, deal a whole ton of damage and confirming if you blew your target into such small chunks there's no body left to Identify, or if he ducked out to take a dump and you missed him entirely. It also means no chance of salvaging any information, or holding the command bunker for your own use.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 03:58:21


Post by: epronovost


cody.d. wrote:
Then again, the real question is. If you can teleport a bunch of terminators into a bunker to kill the command structure, why in the world can you just stick a bomb on said teleporter platform to do the job for a fraction of the investment. Besides of course, space monks and code of honour type stuff.


It's actually a bigger investment. a bomb is one use only. The teleported Terminators, if they survive, and they almost certainly will, can be used again and again and again. It's much easier. Plus if what you need taken is a fortress or bunker complex, once you have troops inside you can seize the thing pretty easily, especially if they are Terminators and with relatively mild damage. If you want a to teleport a bomb you would need some sort of tactical nuke to take out the bunker complex from the inside and lose the real estate at the same time.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 04:41:59


Post by: Wyldhunt


I was under the impression from the small number of Raven Guard stories I've read that their stealth was mildly supernatural in nature. Sort of like striking scorpions'/Karandras's stealth. It's mostly actual skill, but the rules of the setting cause that skill to boil over into literal supernatural invisibility, at least sometimes. Isn't that what RG mean when they refer to "wraith slipping"?

In D&D terms, Astartes take a Size penalty to their Stealth checks, but they also have a bunch of ranks in Stealth, probably have a really high Dexterity stat, and probably have some modifiers from their equipment (sound bafflers in their armour, etc.) So while their physiques don't help with stealth, and while marine swearing their parade colors instead of a camo pattern are even worse off, they're offsetting their drawbacks with other modifiers.

In general, I don't think astartes stealth works quite the same way normal human stealth does. Someone pointed out their enhanced senses allowing them to realize that they need to round a corner or go to ground sooner than a normal human would. Their superhuman anatomy also probably opens up routes that wouldn't be possible for normal humans. Sure, the enemy in the castle are watching the skies and all the conventional land approaches and maybe even the sewer system. But they might not be expecting anyone to climb the several miles high sheer cliff face right behind the castle. Astartes can jump gaps and climb surfaces most opponents couldn't. They can slow their bodily functions sufficiently to not register on bioscanners if they get carried through certain scanners or simply go perfectly still in a way that most humans can't. They can quickly and (relatively) quietly kill the combat servitors you put in the sewers, expecting any scuffle against such guardians to result in a raised alarm. They can even eat your brains to learn what the new patrol route you went over in your morning meeting look like.

Basically, marines have a lot of tools and options that most would-be ninjas don't.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 05:01:32


Post by: Aash


I see no reason why Astartes can't be stealthy. Yes they are big and wear armour, but the setting is science fantasy and much of that can be hand-waved away. When it comes to things like Reivers and what not, the armour has noise dampeners/baffles etc to keep it very quiet if I'm not mistaken.

Also, being Space Marines, they are often fighting in vacuum, so sound is not a concern (of course vibrations will still travel through solid materials...)

In general, Astartes stealth reminds me of this Liam Neeson quote from Batman Begins:
A Ninja understands that invisibility is a matter of patience -- and agility.
Two things Astartes have in abundance.

With regard to Raven Guard, yes, I think there is a bit of space magic going on there, but a bit like Faith in 40k, it is poorly defined, and doesn't seem to be a psychic power in the usual sense. It very much seems to be in line with the sort of magic hobbits have in LOTR:
There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants which they can hear a mile off


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 05:12:26


Post by: Table


There is some seriously profound fan-boys in this thread. It is actually comical. No, 8 ft tall people in POWER ARMOR cannot sneak very well, Raven Guard or not. The post I have been reading are just baffling. Has the marine fanbase really gotten here?

Anyhow. Its like the Alpha Legion. A clandestine chapter whom focus's on asymmetrical warfare.
The Alpha legion does not use its marines to infiltrate or stealth or any nonsense on offer here. They have human operatives for that. The reason they are so dangerous is because they DO NOT fight like marines.

I would imagine the Raven Guard to be much of the same. Not actually stealthy but uses tactics that are not on offer from other chapters.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 05:33:39


Post by: epronovost


Table wrote:
There is some seriously profound fan-boys in this thread. It is actually comical. No, 8 ft tall people in POWER ARMOR cannot sneak very well, Raven Guard or not. The post I have been reading are just baffling. Has the marine fanbase really gotten here?

Anyhow. Its like the Alpha Legion. A clandestine chapter whom focus's on asymmetrical warfare.
The Alpha legion does not use its marines to infiltrate or stealth or any nonsense on offer here. They have human operatives for that. The reason they are so dangerous is because they DO NOT fight like marines.

I would imagine the Raven Guard to be much of the same. Not actually stealthy but uses tactics that are not on offer from other chapters.


The Alpha Legion has a fairly cool concept, but when you think about it it's also very stupid. It's the Legion of Space Marines that is awesome at having very good human servants who do all the hard job of infiltration and sabotage. You could basically cut the Space Marines from the Alpha Legion and make it the 40K universe version of Hydra in Marvel.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 05:43:01


Post by: TheBestBucketHead


Let me clarify my statement from earlier. Astartes would absolutely be worse at stealth as a similarly or even worse train human, and that is because of their size. However, people are underplaying how their senses would help, and that's what my comment was for. They'd absolutely be better setting ambushes, finding intruders, or just cutting off the head when the guard storms the base. But that does not mean they'd be useless. Taking out the lights at night, taking out guardsmen who were slacking, avoiding populated areas, and knowing when someone might turn the corner are all how they would act. They might even be able to eat a guy's brain or something for info if they need it. They just have to work to their advantages and not disadvantages. I think the assumption for the anti crowd here is that stealth means hiding behind things in the room. It can, but it more broadly means avoiding being spotted, which they can do, just not as well as a guardsman or ratling.

Also, Alpharius broke into the Golden Palace, sneaking by Custodes. I'm not saying it was well written, but it happened.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 07:03:03


Post by: Wyldhunt


epronovost wrote:
Table wrote:
There is some seriously profound fan-boys in this thread. It is actually comical. No, 8 ft tall people in POWER ARMOR cannot sneak very well, Raven Guard or not. The post I have been reading are just baffling. Has the marine fanbase really gotten here?

Anyhow. Its like the Alpha Legion. A clandestine chapter whom focus's on asymmetrical warfare.
The Alpha legion does not use its marines to infiltrate or stealth or any nonsense on offer here. They have human operatives for that. The reason they are so dangerous is because they DO NOT fight like marines.

I would imagine the Raven Guard to be much of the same. Not actually stealthy but uses tactics that are not on offer from other chapters.


The Alpha Legion has a fairly cool concept, but when you think about it it's also very stupid. It's the Legion of Space Marines that is awesome at having very good human servants who do all the hard job of infiltration and sabotage. You could basically cut the Space Marines from the Alpha Legion and make it the 40K universe version of Hydra in Marvel.

Oh, they're absolutely the 40k version of Hydra. Possibly literally inspired by given the literal hydra motif.

But I think you may be selling the marines a bit short. There's a scene in Sons of the Hydra(?) where they need to sneak into an inquisitorial base. So they do something like...
* Walk around in an unbreathable environment.
* Bury themselves underground along a route they know a transport will be passing.
* Wait for the krak grenade boobytrap they rigged to go off and make the imperials pause to check the damage.
* Grab onto the underside of the transport and let it carry them into the base.

I'm probably misremembering that somewhat, but that scene alone demonstrates the marines utilizing infiltration options that a normal human probably couldn't pull off. A normal human wouldn't be able to walk around in the unbreathable environment without some non-standard gear. The astartes rely on their gear here, sure, but only on features that seem to be pretty standard power armor stuff. Burying themselves without specialized tools, remaining underground for an extended period of time, and then unburying themselves fast enough to hitch a ride seems like it would probably be beyond an unaugmented human. And even hanging onto the underside of a tank for an extended period of time over unpaved ground seems like a pretty big ask for a human. And that's just one scene.

I'm not downplaying the stealth skills of non-marines. Just trying to point out that an astartes' physiology isn't all downsides when it comes to sneaking around. Are you easier to spot than a guardsman? Sure. But in exchange for being easier to spot, you can jump and climb places the guardsman can't. And you can do that jumping and climbing while having the benefits of your helmet's advanced auspex and not needing to breathe for extended periods of time.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 07:48:06


Post by: epronovost


Wyldhunt wrote:
I'm probably misremembering that somewhat, but that scene alone demonstrates the marines utilizing infiltration options that a normal human probably couldn't pull off. A normal human wouldn't be able to walk around in the unbreathable environment without some non-standard gear. The astartes rely on their gear here, sure, but only on features that seem to be pretty standard power armor stuff. Burying themselves without specialized tools, remaining underground for an extended period of time, and then unburying themselves fast enough to hitch a ride seems like it would probably be beyond an unaugmented human. And even hanging onto the underside of a tank for an extended period of time over unpaved ground seems like a pretty big ask for a human. And that's just one scene.


Again that's a bit of a shaky, but at least believable at face value writing. It has several big weaknesses. First breathing apparatus is pretty much a standard piece of equipment for many guardsmen. Hell it's necessary for many to operate on the surface of their own planet because it's too toxic to breath like on many places in Armageddon. It's also standard mandatory gear on all Scions. Burying yourself is a nice trick, but it takes time and you have to dispose of the earth you moved and have to be careful else someone might find it suspicious that there are mounds of earth where there used to be none, especially mounts of earth appropriate for a 7 to 8 foot tall Space Marines in armor. A Space Marine in armor is at least two to three feet thick, maybe more with the power pack. Then bursting out of the ground to catch a ride under a truck is a fancy one, but not very much stealthy since you are moving a lot of ground still, but if you are perfectly positioned, you could pull it off. Finally there is the little strangeness of latching under a tank which normally have a quite low ground clearance and Space Marines in armor being both very heavy and extra "thiccc" due to their physique and imposing armor set. Plus, such an extra weight would probably be noticed by the driver of the vehicle. You don't add close to a 500 kilos under your vehicle without noticing something and you need something rather sturdy to support that weight without breaking but I'll be generous enough to grant it to mag boots and gauntlets. I think this is a very neat trick and at least shows a writer trying to come off with a clever infiltration plan but it would work better with humans or human sized superhuman without heavy armor like assassins for example.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 08:04:16


Post by: Vatsetis


Ok so an Astartes to make use of "alternative stealth" they need to use to the limit all off their fancy equipment and transhuman bodies... Instead of a regular human just doing standard stealth techniques???

What a brilliant confirmation that astartes are indeed like that joke NASA space pen.



Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 08:10:11


Post by: kirotheavenger


Skill at stealth is all about knowing how to use the environment to conceal yourself.
You can't just render yourself invisible when standing in front of someone by being really good.

Situations like a Ravenguard hiding in the shadows right next to someone are ridiculous, and are basically authors trying to emphasise how great at stealth someone is without the skills to express that more logically.

This sort of thing happened constantly when I was reading "Legion" (about the Alpha Legion). Except there it's even worse because they're in blue/green armour!


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 08:38:03


Post by: A Town Called Malus


Also, with regards to Marines having enhanced senses either due to their biology or their armour which would help them, the only chapter which was ever given any representation of that, I believe, was the Space Wolves (surprise, surprise) who had the acute senses perk.

Space Marines never got the Night Vision USR or even had access to it through wargear, unlike other races. Indeed, if space marines could all see in the dark, why did they attach searchlights to their vehicles?

Also, any force with thermal imaging could instantly spot Space Marines running around in their power armour, no matter how stealthy they are trying to be, because said power armour is powered by a nuclear reactor which puts out a lot of heat, and you cannot stop it from doing that without ending up with a meltdown or a cooked marine or both. A marine burying itself would quickly cook itself and die due to the heat output of the reactor they have strapped to their back.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 08:55:22


Post by: BrianDavion


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Also, with regards to Marines having enhanced senses either due to their biology or their armour which would help them, the only chapter which was ever given any representation of that, I believe, was the Space Wolves (surprise, surprise) who had the acute senses perk.

Space Marines never got the Night Vision USR or even had access to it through wargear, unlike other races.

Also, any force with thermal imaging could instantly spot Space Marines running around in their power armour, no matter how stealthy they are trying to be, because said power armour is powered by a nuclear reactor which puts out a lot of heat, and you cannot stop it from doing that without ending up with a meltdown or a cooked marine or both. A marine burying itself would quickly cook itself and die due to the heat output of the reactor they have strapped to their back.


can you name a single time in which heat from marine armor reactors has even come up, at all? Cause I sure can't.
40k is set nearly 40,000 years into the future, if waste heat being a problem has NEVER come up, AT ALL, we can proably assume it's simply not an issue with the technology they're using.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 08:59:13


Post by: A Town Called Malus


BrianDavion wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Also, with regards to Marines having enhanced senses either due to their biology or their armour which would help them, the only chapter which was ever given any representation of that, I believe, was the Space Wolves (surprise, surprise) who had the acute senses perk.

Space Marines never got the Night Vision USR or even had access to it through wargear, unlike other races.

Also, any force with thermal imaging could instantly spot Space Marines running around in their power armour, no matter how stealthy they are trying to be, because said power armour is powered by a nuclear reactor which puts out a lot of heat, and you cannot stop it from doing that without ending up with a meltdown or a cooked marine or both. A marine burying itself would quickly cook itself and die due to the heat output of the reactor they have strapped to their back.


can you name a single time in which heat from marine armor reactors has even come up, at all? Cause I sure can't.
40k is set nearly 40,000 years into the future, if waste heat being a problem has NEVER come up, AT ALL, we can proably assume it's simply not an issue with the technology they're using.


Sure. Look at the backpack of a marine model and at the vents on the bottom of their backpack. That is where the heat of their power generator is vented to the outside. It generates enough heat that it requires a dedicated system to vent said heat out of the armour system. From the size of the vents we can also tell that the maximum capacity of said venting system is limited, which puts a cap on how hot the reactor can run before it isn't able to vent the heat sufficiently fast to prevent the reactor from overheating and meltdown. This is also limited by the environmental conditions as the vents make clear that the system operates via transferring the energy to the outside atmosphere, it uses the atmosphere as the heat dump. A Marine reactor will be less efficient on a hot planet than a cold one, for example. It will also be incredibly dangerous to operate in a vacuum where the only method of passive heat loss is radiation unless the armour is using its own air supply as a heat dump then venting it into space.

The laws of thermodynamics state that you cannot have a 100% efficient conversion of energy to work. There will always be wastage and the level of wastage is typically extremely high if you want your system to be able to do work fast.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 09:01:53


Post by: Aash


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Also, with regards to Marines having enhanced senses either due to their biology or their armour which would help them, the only chapter which was ever given any representation of that, I believe, was the Space Wolves (surprise, surprise) who had the acute senses perk.

Space Marines never got the Night Vision USR or even had access to it through wargear, unlike other races.

Also, any force with thermal imaging could instantly spot Space Marines running around in their power armour, no matter how stealthy they are trying to be, because said power armour is powered by a nuclear reactor which puts out a lot of heat, and you cannot stop it from doing that without ending up with a meltdown or a cooked marine or both. A marine burying itself would quickly cook itself and die due to the heat output of the reactor they have strapped to their back.


can you name a single time in which heat from marine armor reactors has even come up, at all? Cause I sure can't.
40k is set nearly 40,000 years into the future, if waste heat being a problem has NEVER come up, AT ALL, we can proably assume it's simply not an issue with the technology they're using.


Sure. Look at the backpack of a marine model and at the two vents on their backpack. That is where the heat of their power generator is vented to the outside.


Those aren’t vents, they are stabilising jets for use in low gravity:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/10/30/the-anatomy-of-power-armour/


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 09:03:59


Post by: kirotheavenger


A marine backpack actually has 6-9 vents, depending on what you count various bits at and which sculpts you look at. Presumably some of those will be air intakes though and maybe others for stuff like the air filtration system and stuff.

There's a lot of real world considerations that don't come up in the lore though, like where the hell does a Space Marine keep all this ammo. They're just handwaved for the sake of the story and aesthetics.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 09:11:23


Post by: A Town Called Malus


Aash wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Also, with regards to Marines having enhanced senses either due to their biology or their armour which would help them, the only chapter which was ever given any representation of that, I believe, was the Space Wolves (surprise, surprise) who had the acute senses perk.

Space Marines never got the Night Vision USR or even had access to it through wargear, unlike other races.

Also, any force with thermal imaging could instantly spot Space Marines running around in their power armour, no matter how stealthy they are trying to be, because said power armour is powered by a nuclear reactor which puts out a lot of heat, and you cannot stop it from doing that without ending up with a meltdown or a cooked marine or both. A marine burying itself would quickly cook itself and die due to the heat output of the reactor they have strapped to their back.


can you name a single time in which heat from marine armor reactors has even come up, at all? Cause I sure can't.
40k is set nearly 40,000 years into the future, if waste heat being a problem has NEVER come up, AT ALL, we can proably assume it's simply not an issue with the technology they're using.


Sure. Look at the backpack of a marine model and at the two vents on their backpack. That is where the heat of their power generator is vented to the outside.


Those aren’t vents, they are stabilising jets for use in low gravity:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/10/30/the-anatomy-of-power-armour/


Fair enough, but the backpack still has vents to get rid of the excess heat (number 8 in the labelled marine model image) so the point remains.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 09:26:41


Post by: kirotheavenger


The lore on those 'vents' is inconsistent, sometimes they are vents, sometimes they're stabilising jets.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 09:29:24


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Gert wrote:
epronovost wrote:
Actually, it would be more reasonable to state that they are the best Space Marines at stealth and that pretty much all of their operations fall under the umbrella of clandestine operations. That doesn't mean they are actually all that good at it compared to let's say, the best light recon infantry regiments of the Imperial Guard or the best recon Hunter Cadre of the Tau (who literally have invisible dudes).

The Raven Guard are noted as being so good at stealth that even Space Marines struggle with them.
There is a scene in one of the Uriel Ventris novels where five Raven Guard hide in the shadows during a gathering of the Ultramarines masters of the Chapter, including Sgt. Telion one of the best Scouts of all, and not a single Astartes (barring Calgar and Tigirius who knew they were on world) even noticed them until they revealed themselves. IIRC Ventris even mulls on the idea that the entire command element of the Chapter could have been wiped out before they could raise their weapons.


That speaks more to the utter incompetence of the Ultramarines in securing their position before settling down to have a chinwag than it does to any skills of the Raven Guard.
Like, they seriously had no active detection measures which didn't rely on the visible spectrum? No sentries equipped with night vision and positioned to give overlapping fields of view? No radar or sonar or other scanning technology which doesn't even know shadows are a thing that exist? Or hell, just shining a flashlight around the place?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
The lore on those 'vents' is inconsistent, sometimes they are vents, sometimes they're stabilising jets.


According to the link, the vents at the bottom of the pack are the heat diffusion system.

So I was wrong about the placement, but not the fact that the armour has to vent the heat from the reactor.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 09:36:43


Post by: TheBestBucketHead


I kinda read the discussion here as "Marines can't ever be stealthy" vs. "Marines aren't entirely incapable of stealth". Marines are worse than a worse trained human or ratling. But if a marine needs to be, I'm sure they can make do more than people are giving credit for.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 09:41:23


Post by: Tygre


I guess vents could be used as stabilising jets by regulating output.

Marines tend to be like the reverse ninja law. If there are only a few marines they're awesome. If there are many marines they die in droves.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 09:41:42


Post by: kirotheavenger


 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The lore on those 'vents' is inconsistent, sometimes they are vents, sometimes they're stabilising jets.


According to the link, the vents at the bottom of the pack are the heat diffusion system.

So I was wrong about the placement, but not the fact that the armour has to vent the heat from the reactor.

My point is it's inconsistent.
Other sources do claim that those round nodules are heat vents.

For example, the lore for why earlier marks of armour have the cylindrical heat vents is because they moved to a more efficient power supply which gave off less heat allowing them to use smaller vents (the rounded ones).
Also, IIRC earlier Chaos Space Marine codexes said the reason they had their nodules on stalks is because they had unstable powerpacks that required them to vent heat further away from the user.
Betrayal at Calth depicts Astartes donning special thruster gear for void combat, indicating that they don't have it inbuilt into the armour. Indeed the position and angle of the vents make very little sense if they were for stabilisation, they'd just lift the marine upwards and flip them forwards, not particularly useful.

So in short, they either can't decide what they're supposed to be, what they are is very poorly communicated amongst writers, and/or they deliberately forget what they are as soon as they need to explain some other aesthical design choice. Probably a mix of it all.

Although now we're getting off topic, regardless you're absolutely right that power armour produces heat!


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 09:55:07


Post by: Gert


Raven Guard: Consistently shown to excel at stealth, even against Astartes and other advanced individuals. Said to be able to literally become the shadows they hide in. Has never been said that the RG haven't been excellent stealthers despite them being Astartes.

Dakka: Thats stupid! That's just bad writing! That would never happen!

You lot are gonna flip when you hear about Titans being able to walk or about people who are basically Wizards.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 10:01:51


Post by: kirotheavenger


It's important that fictional settings are internally consistent.
If Ravenguard were actually described as psykers, casting invisibility spells on themselves, no one would be complaining here. Because wizards are an established part of the setting and that would be following the 'rules' those wizards are said to follow.

But they're not, so in universe they're supposed to be operating under the same laws of reality as the rest of us. In reality, you cannot just will yourself invisible no matter how skilled you are.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 10:05:28


Post by: BrianDavion


 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's important that fictional settings are internally consistent.
If Ravenguard were actually described as psykers, casting invisibility spells on themselves, no one would be complaining here. Because wizards are an established part of the setting and that would be following the 'rules' those wizards are said to follow.

But they're not, so in universe they're supposed to be operating under the same laws of reality as the rest of us. In reality, you cannot just will yourself invisible no matter how skilled you are.


and in reality a titan would never support it's own mass.
BUT THEY DO!


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 10:10:49


Post by: A Town Called Malus


BrianDavion wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's important that fictional settings are internally consistent.
If Ravenguard were actually described as psykers, casting invisibility spells on themselves, no one would be complaining here. Because wizards are an established part of the setting and that would be following the 'rules' those wizards are said to follow.

But they're not, so in universe they're supposed to be operating under the same laws of reality as the rest of us. In reality, you cannot just will yourself invisible no matter how skilled you are.


and in reality a titan would never support it's own mass.
BUT THEY DO!


In universe they use anti-gravity technology, again a staple technology of not just 40K but a lot of sci-fi, to counter some of the mass.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 10:22:40


Post by: Gert


Out of the Warlord, Reaver and Warhound, only the Warlord mentions having gyrostabilisers and anti-grav tech for stabilisation.
And as for internal consistency, the Raven Guard are consistently shown as being excellent at stealth. I'm not claiming all Astartes are amazing, just the RG.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 10:24:39


Post by: kirotheavenger


It's also alluded to in many books.
Some describe titans as pulverising streets and stomping deep craters into the ground. Some even describe them as being unable to tread in certain areas as they would sink too deep or even collapse the entire hive section.

But also mechs are standard suspension of disbelief for sci-fi and steam/diesel-punky settings.
So it seems less silly than 8ft tall superhumans willing themselves invisible to other people with superhuman senses.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 10:24:47


Post by: Da Boss


I don't mind suspension of disbelief. But when I'm expected to suspend it over and over again for the purpose of Space Marines or some flavour of space marines being the best at some particular cool skill I get a bit fed up and less willing to engage in the suspension. It's like, oh, they're also the best at that? Huh. Add in the usually pretty cringey writing that expresses these ideas and you can see why people become disillusioned with it.

Especially if like me you're fed up of all the different varieties of Marines. Like marines get to be the toughest, the best at close combat, the best at shooting, the stealthiest, the smartest, the best Psykers etc etc. All justified with the same tired language. This counter reaction would happen in absolutely any fan community, it's not unique to 40K.



Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 10:42:16


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Gert wrote:
Raven Guard: Consistently shown to excel at stealth, even against Astartes and other advanced individuals. Said to be able to literally become the shadows they hide in. Has never been said that the RG haven't been excellent stealthers despite them being Astartes.

Dakka: Thats stupid! That's just bad writing! That would never happen!

You lot are gonna flip when you hear about Titans being able to walk or about people who are basically Wizards.


But it is stupid, because many of the species in the setting can see in the dark. Earlier in this thread we had people saying that the heightened senses of the space marines, including being able to see in the dark, would make them better at stealth as they could detect and evade enemy forces. Now those senses are incapable of detecting some people whose entire method of evading detection was "stand in the dark", let alone people using more advanced techniques such as "crouch behind rock" or "attach foliage to clothes" or "use directional microphone and binoculars to observe from far away" or even all of these all at once!

It's more believable that the Ultramarines were just embarrassed that the Raven Guard actually thought they couldn't be seen and so didn't mention it.

Basically, the Raven Guard were Kronk



Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 11:17:58


Post by: Vatsetis


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Also, with regards to Marines having enhanced senses either due to their biology or their armour which would help them, the only chapter which was ever given any representation of that, I believe, was the Space Wolves (surprise, surprise) who had the acute senses perk.

Space Marines never got the Night Vision USR or even had access to it through wargear, unlike other races.

Also, any force with thermal imaging could instantly spot Space Marines running around in their power armour, no matter how stealthy they are trying to be, because said power armour is powered by a nuclear reactor which puts out a lot of heat, and you cannot stop it from doing that without ending up with a meltdown or a cooked marine or both. A marine burying itself would quickly cook itself and die due to the heat output of the reactor they have strapped to their back.


can you name a single time in which heat from marine armor reactors has even come up, at all? Cause I sure can't.
40k is set nearly 40,000 years into the future, if waste heat being a problem has NEVER come up, AT ALL, we can proably assume it's simply not an issue with the technology they're using.


Sure. Look at the backpack of a marine model and at the vents on the bottom of their backpack. That is where the heat of their power generator is vented to the outside. It generates enough heat that it requires a dedicated system to vent said heat out of the armour system. From the size of the vents we can also tell that the maximum capacity of said venting system is limited, which puts a cap on how hot the reactor can run before it isn't able to vent the heat sufficiently fast to prevent the reactor from overheating and meltdown. This is also limited by the environmental conditions as the vents make clear that the system operates via transferring the energy to the outside atmosphere, it uses the atmosphere as the heat dump. A Marine reactor will be less efficient on a hot planet than a cold one, for example. It will also be incredibly dangerous to operate in a vacuum where the only method of passive heat loss is radiation unless the armour is using its own air supply as a heat dump then venting it into space.

The laws of thermodynamics state that you cannot have a 100% efficient conversion of energy to work. There will always be wastage and the level of wastage is typically extremely high if you want your system to be able to do work fast.

fething Brilliant post... Check Mate on the Astartes Stealth Hypothesis.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I kinda read the discussion here as "Marines can't ever be stealthy" vs. "Marines aren't entirely incapable of stealth". Marines are worse than a worse trained human or ratling. But if a marine needs to be, I'm sure they can make do more than people are giving credit for.


Sure, SM can achieve "some" level of stealth but are hugely handicaped by their oversize, overweight and power plant... Surely they arent going to be used as Ninjas.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 11:27:10


Post by: kirotheavenger


It's like the classic DnD rogue that wants to disappear whilst standing in the middle of a grand hallway surrounded by guards.
But... but I have Silent Step feat!


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 12:18:38


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 kirotheavenger wrote:
It's like the classic DnD rogue that wants to disappear whilst standing in the middle of a grand hallway surrounded by guards.
But... but I have Silent Step feat!


"What do you mean the many royal guards whose entire raison d'être is to watch over and protect the king saw me taking the King's crown from his head as he sat on the throne in front of the entire court? I rolled a 20 on my skill check!"


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 18:11:51


Post by: epronovost


 Gert wrote:
Raven Guard: Consistently shown to excel at stealth, even against Astartes and other advanced individuals. Said to be able to literally become the shadows they hide in. Has never been said that the RG haven't been excellent stealthers despite them being Astartes.

Dakka: Thats stupid! That's just bad writing! That would never happen!

You lot are gonna flip when you hear about Titans being able to walk or about people who are basically Wizards.


Yeah 40K is filled with imaginary things, but some are consistent while others are not. Some make sense in relation to the universe, others not. A giant walking robot is very dumb as a weapon system, but believable otherwise. Since all factions have some sort of giant walking robots, using giant walking robots in war isn't that stupid since everybody shares the same stupidity. You don't break immersion and suspension of disbelief in that case. If you tell me, in this universe these weapons are terrifying and efficient and everyone uses them in one form or another, I have to say OK (or not and refuse to engage in the story). The same things goes for swords, axes and spears. Dudes hiding in the shadow 30 ft away from people who see perfectly well in pitch darkness is just bad writing. It goes against stuff you had established earlier. It would the equivalent of saying "those things are super good and dangerous" and never write a story where they actually succeed and gets defeated by more and more mundane things.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 18:45:25


Post by: Wyldhunt


epronovost wrote:

At that point, GW could have went just an extra mile and declare that all Space Marines are mildly magical and that their power varies from Chapter to Chapter. The Raven Guard magical ability is to turn invisible in darkness or dense shadows. Of course that would require all of them to be psykers and anti-psyker technique would work to counter it or even make them easy to spot. They did no such thing so managed to avoid an easy cop-out built in any science-fantasy universe.


There are tons of things in 40k that seem to be supernatural/psychic in nature without being full blown obvious psyker activity. Not all of them require glowing eyes, magic chants, and psychic tests. You've got exarch powers that basically low-grade psychic effects. You've got drukhari soul/pain eating. You've got mandrakes climbing in and out of the shadow dimension. You've got ethereals, acts of faith, wolf tail talismans, the various spooky things navigators can do with their third eyes, warp fauna like khymarae that can phase through matter...

The way it's written, I get the impression that RG wraith slipping is another example of this. Basically a watered down version of a more overtly supernatural thing Corax can do.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
epronovost wrote:

Again that's a bit of a shaky, but at least believable at face value writing. It has several big weaknesses. First breathing apparatus is pretty much a standard piece of equipment for many guardsmen. Hell it's necessary for many to operate on the surface of their own planet because it's too toxic to breath like on many places in Armageddon. It's also standard mandatory gear on all Scions.


IIRC, they were on an asteroid or moon or something that had basically no atmosphere at all. So it wasn't a matter of the air being toxic. It was more that there simply wasn't any air. I could be mistaken, but I thought that guard basically got gas masks; not something with an internal oxygen supply. Scions are very fancy boys who are excellent at infiltration and have very snazzy gear. So marines "merely" having gear comparable to some of the imperium's most elite special forces doesn't seem like an argument against the abilities of marines.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I kinda read the discussion here as "Marines can't ever be stealthy" vs. "Marines aren't entirely incapable of stealth". Marines are worse than a worse trained human or ratling. But if a marine needs to be, I'm sure they can make do more than people are giving credit for.


My take is basically that marines are disadvantaged by their large size and colorful armor, but that they have other advantages that they can leverage to make up for it (and exceed the abilities of a not-particularly-sneaky human). Figured out roughly what the patrol routes along a wall are like? Use your transhuman speed to bolt into the next piece of cover in the couple of seconds before the next guard rounds the corner. Enemy fortress is built into a cliff, hidden behind huge walls, and bristling with anti-aircraft batteries? Climb the several miles high sheer cliff wall to bypass the guns and walls. Enemy base is on an island with lots of anti-vehicle batteries watching the horizon? Walk along the bottom of the ocean.

Ever play Chimera Squad? Marines are bristling with alternate entry point options.

Granted, a space marine in your living room should probably be pretty easy to spot. He might be braced against your ceiling in the corner holding perfectly still, but he's probably going to be easier to notice than like, a guardsmen hiding behind my couch. When marine sneakery is written well (imho), it's because they leverage feats that normal humans probably can't pull off. One of the AL novels has a marine basically hold his breath for a few days (week?) while packed into a barrel of meat soup; the idea being that his flesh would just blend in with the soup when scanned. Gaunt's Ghosts are great at what they do, but they don't have the meat soup option when infiltrating an enemy base.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 19:13:17


Post by: epronovost


Wyldhunt wrote:
There are tons of things in 40k that seem to be supernatural/psychic in nature without being full blown obvious psyker activity. Not all of them require glowing eyes, magic chants, and psychic tests. You've got exarch powers that basically low-grade psychic effects. You've got drukhari soul/pain eating. You've got mandrakes climbing in and out of the shadow dimension. You've got ethereals, acts of faith, wolf tail talismans, the various spooky things navigators can do with their third eyes, warp fauna like khymarae that can phase through matter...

The way it's written, I get the impression that RG wraith slipping is another example of this. Basically a watered down version of a more overtly supernatural thing Corax can do.


Again this is a bad example. Exarchs and Striking Scorpions stealth skills are indeed magical. All Eldars are psykers; all of them. Thus, they can all do some magic. It requires some training to produce some specific effect of course, but any eldar has the potential from casting flames from their bare hands. That's why some can drink souls, others predict the future, some meld your minds. Mandrakes are literal half shadow daemons and half eldar. They are thus all psykers and their abilities completely magical. Khymera are summoned daemons, literal nightmare made flesh through magic. Ethereal are in the more dubious, personality cult/chemical effect and what they do isn't supernatural like being near invisible when in the shadows like Striking Scorpions. The way it's written, not all Raven Guards are psykers, thus they should not all be able to do magic. If a Librarian from the Raven Guard did it with its buddies, we would not have this issue.


IIRC, they were on an asteroid or moon or something that had basically no atmosphere at all. So it wasn't a matter of the air being toxic. It was more that there simply wasn't any air. I could be mistaken, but I thought that guard basically got gas masks; not something with an internal oxygen supply. Scions are very fancy boys who are excellent at infiltration and have very snazzy gear. So marines "merely" having gear comparable to some of the imperium's most elite special forces doesn't seem like an argument against the abilities of marines.


The Imperial Guards and the Navy troopers operate in vacuum from time to time or on planet where the atmosphere is unbreathable which thus require air supply. Air supply is probably not an issue. Scions armor is pressurized and they can fight in the vacuum for a while. It's an argument against the "Space Marines did a stealth operation nobody else could have pulled off" if much more common and numerous elite troopers could have done it just as easily if not even more easily.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 19:20:11


Post by: Haighus


Regarding the power plant producing a constant thermal bloom, do we have any evidence to say it can't just cycle up and down in output as required?

Sure, we don't know of any fusion reactors that can do that... but we also can't miniaturise fusion reactors or make any effective artificial reactors at all, so I don't see why the ability to modulate output as needed would be an especially outlandish feature for technology that is already far beyond our own.

The Alpha Legion would basically near enough switch off their reactors until needed.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 19:39:16


Post by: Wyldhunt


epronovost wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
There are tons of things in 40k that seem to be supernatural/psychic in nature without being full blown obvious psyker activity. Not all of them require glowing eyes, magic chants, and psychic tests. You've got exarch powers that basically low-grade psychic effects. You've got drukhari soul/pain eating. You've got mandrakes climbing in and out of the shadow dimension. You've got ethereals, acts of faith, wolf tail talismans, the various spooky things navigators can do with their third eyes, warp fauna like khymarae that can phase through matter...

The way it's written, I get the impression that RG wraith slipping is another example of this. Basically a watered down version of a more overtly supernatural thing Corax can do.


Again this is a bad example. Exarchs and Striking Scorpions stealth skills are indeed magical. All Eldars are psykers; all of them. Thus, they can all do some magic. It requires some training to produce some specific effect of course, but any eldar has the potential from casting flames from their bare hands. That's why some can drink souls, others predict the future, some meld your minds. Mandrakes are literal half shadow daemons and half eldar. They are thus all psykers and their abilities completely magical. Khymera are summoned daemons, literal nightmare made flesh through magic. Ethereal are in the more dubious, personality cult/chemical effect and what they do isn't supernatural like being near invisible when in the shadows like Striking Scorpions. The way it's written, not all Raven Guards are psykers, thus they should not all be able to do magic. If a Librarian from the Raven Guard did it with its buddies, we would not have this issue.

Fair points. I think the point I'm trying to make is that there are "psykers," and then there are "psykers." I'd argue that most or all RG are capable of the low-level supernatural feat of wraith slipping just like most space puppies seem to be particularly good at warding off psychic powers and sisters of battle can pull off their acts of faith and other miracles. We don't think of sisters as being "psykers," but the community seems to mostly agree that faith-based abilities in 40k are basically a psychic stunt pulled off via the collective latent psychic abilities of the group rather than the overt psychic abilities of a psyker.

Basically, I think a combination of having a supernatural being's genseed and the training/culture of the RG chapter lets them pull off the stealth equivalent of an act of faith. It's functionally psychic, but does that make them "psykers"?


IIRC, they were on an asteroid or moon or something that had basically no atmosphere at all. So it wasn't a matter of the air being toxic. It was more that there simply wasn't any air. I could be mistaken, but I thought that guard basically got gas masks; not something with an internal oxygen supply. Scions are very fancy boys who are excellent at infiltration and have very snazzy gear. So marines "merely" having gear comparable to some of the imperium's most elite special forces doesn't seem like an argument against the abilities of marines.


The Imperial Guards and the Navy troopers operate in vacuum from time to time or on planet where the atmosphere is unbreathable which thus require air supply. Air supply is probably not an issue. Scions armor is pressurized and they can fight in the vacuum for a while. It's an argument against the "Space Marines did a stealth operation nobody else could have pulled off" if much more common and numerous elite troopers could have done it just as easily if not even more easily.

But do guardsmen and navy troopers always have void gear on hand? The marines just showed up for work that day, and their default equipment let them do a thing that a guardsman's standard kit probably wouldn't have allowed. Marines and their armor are a bundle of niche little features like that. There's merit to that kind of flexibility.

As for scions being badass, that's great. But again, if you're drawing comparisons between marines and some of the imperium's most sneaky elite boys, that seems to support the idea that marines are, in fact, competent infiltrators. If my basketball skills are merely on par with professional basketball players, that still means I'm good at basketball.

I get the impression that you think I'm making the argument that marines are the bestest ninjas ever, and no one else is allowed to even come close. I'm not. I'd believe that the average catachan is as good or better than the average marine at hiding in a jungle. But that doesn't mean that marines can't be good at stealth or that their raw versatility and assortment of unique tricks aren't assets when someone needs to do some infiltration.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 20:01:07


Post by: epronovost


Wyldhunt wrote:

Fair points. I think the point I'm trying to make is that there are "psykers," and then there are "psykers." I'd argue that most or all RG are capable of the low-level supernatural feat of wraith slipping just like most space puppies seem to be particularly good at warding off psychic powers and sisters of battle can pull off their acts of faith and other miracles. We don't think of sisters as being "psykers," but the community seems to mostly agree that faith-based abilities in 40k are basically a psychic stunt pulled off via the collective latent psychic abilities of the group rather than the overt psychic abilities of a psyker.

Basically, I think a combination of having a supernatural being's genseed and the training/culture of the RG chapter lets them pull off the stealth equivalent of an act of faith. It's functionally psychic, but does that make them "psykers"?


Again, that's murky at best. For all we know Sisters of Battle Act of Faith are basically psychic power produced by a third party, in that case, the Emperor himself, the most powerful psyker in the 40k universe (hence why they also work in places with psychic defense to a certain degree). Plus, even if Acts of Faith were indeed the produce of belief, they are the produce of belief from trillions of humans, some of them psykers, who fervently believe in the God Emperor and the Sisters of Battle are just the focus of them because they are the most faithful of the faithful. A 1000 dudes believing they are the most stealthy people around and thus becoming so by the sheer power of belief, while unintentionally fething hilarious, is probably not how this entire "fervent belief produces magical effects". You need a hell of a lot more than the beliefs of a few thousands or even a few millions to produce such effect according to the lore we have on it.

I get the impression that you think I'm making the argument that marines are the bestest ninjas ever, and no one else is allowed to even come close. I'm not. I'd believe that the average catachan is as good or better than the average marine at hiding in a jungle. But that doesn't mean that marines can't be good at stealth or that their raw versatility and assortment of unique tricks aren't assets when someone needs to do some infiltration.


I do agree with you on that point. In ideal conditions (or in special circumstances) a Space Marine can be stealthy, hell I might even be willing to grant that they are surprisingly stealthy when you take their size and weight in comparison, about as stealthy as a competent guardsman (which is awesome when you consider their disadvantages), but not a badass specialist in the genre like a Catashan Devil or a Ratling Sniper and certainly not a magically powered one like a Striking Scorpion or even worst a Mandrake.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 22:41:32


Post by: BrianDavion


I think one mistake people are making is assuming "equality of training"

Space Marines come from a hard enviroment where they're already pretty good, coming from death worlds etc. (one need only look at catachan to see the kind of people a death world produces) they're given extensive training as part of the trials (obviously what this is varies from chapter to chapter) then they're made mariens given scout training and spend their inital service in the scouts. GW's vague on how long a marine typically serves with the scouts but it's at least one deployment, (it should be worth noting that if a guardsmen survives a campaign he's considered a veteran)
then, with the new primaris marines they spend more time in the tenth company serving with the vanguard unit.

So by time a Marine leaves the 10th company he has considerable skill at these, almost certainly more then your average guardsman.

The Guard aren't some sort of elite Navy SEAL. they're the best of the PDF and are solid troops. but they're not anywhere NEAR as well trained or experianced as a Space Marine (obviously this is a matter of averages. A Veteran Cadian is proably more experianced/better trained then a green Space Marine scout)




Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/11 23:17:54


Post by: Gert


^Exactly.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 00:12:14


Post by: BrianDavion


And this BTW is the REAL advantage of astartes..

They're insanely tough to kill, so they can emerge from combat taking wounds that would kill or criple a human and be back in the next fight. they're biologically immortal (or damn close too it)
this means you have a wealth of experiance in a single formation.

you're absolutely right the idea that one man can be as good as a mortal expert in 15 differant fields of study is rediculas. but a space marine is going to have more experiance then an entire squad of guardsmen put together


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 01:16:05


Post by: epronovost


BrianDavion wrote:
I think one mistake people are making is assuming "equality of training"

Space Marines come from a hard enviroment where they're already pretty good, coming from death worlds etc. (one need only look at catachan to see the kind of people a death world produces) they're given extensive training as part of the trials (obviously what this is varies from chapter to chapter) then they're made mariens given scout training and spend their inital service in the scouts. GW's vague on how long a marine typically serves with the scouts but it's at least one deployment, (it should be worth noting that if a guardsmen survives a campaign he's considered a veteran)
then, with the new primaris marines they spend more time in the tenth company serving with the vanguard unit.

So by time a Marine leaves the 10th company he has considerable skill at these, almost certainly more then your average guardsman.

The Guard aren't some sort of elite Navy SEAL. they're the best of the PDF and are solid troops. but they're not anywhere NEAR as well trained or experianced as a Space Marine (obviously this is a matter of averages. A Veteran Cadian is proably more experianced/better trained then a green Space Marine scout)




The yet only other problem with that defense is that while some Marines come from harsh worlds, some don't. Maccrage, the homeworld of the Ultramarine is civilized and temperate, one of the best place to live actually so are many other planets of the Realm of Ultramar. Plus, most Space Marines are recruited as prepubescent boys. Not exactly the most skilled even in harsh places. Hell, even those born on feral worlds or in the hyper violent slums of some hive city are basically children. They haven't made their first "big hunt" they aren't men; they are boys.

Onto the training but, the only place where we have info as to how much time it took for a Space Marine to pass from Scout to Devastator in a reserve company was about 2 to 3 years. A Catashan or a Cadian all go to military school from infancy to late teenagerhood where they join cadet groups for a couple of years. A Cadian age 25 has about 10 years of military experience and constant training and about 6 or 7 year prior to that of preparatory training. You random Cadian would make a Navy SEAL look like an undertrained rooky and that's without delving into their even more elite elements. One thing people seem to mistake is that "trained since birth to be soldiers" and "born in a hell where only the strong survive" is par for the course for billions of guardsmen because they read Space Marine fluff, but not that of other factions. Hell from those numbers alone, a random power armored Space Marines might actually have less experience than a random Cadian trooper.


Finally there is the final problem of how many years do you think it takes to master a skill to reasonable degree. Some could take centuries like close combat fighting with a variety of different while others, if you don't get it in a couple of weeks, you'll never get it like walking silently or moving while hugging cover. Training isn't some sort of magic trick. You also need the proper physical and mental aptitudes and the proper equipment. That's why most of us, even if we trained our entire life for it, could never become Olympic gymnasts. We simply don't have the proper aptitude. We could become very agile and strong, but never to their level.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 01:23:47


Post by: BrianDavion


an average age 25 cadian is proably dead


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 01:25:09


Post by: epronovost


BrianDavion wrote:
an average age 25 cadian is proably dead


That's a quintessentially illogical statement. An average Cadian of age 25 can only be alive (or dying) and there are millions of them (well until the planet exploded, there are less now).


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 01:30:19


Post by: BrianDavion


epronovost wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
an average age 25 cadian is proably dead


That's a quintessentially illogical statement. An average Cadian of age 25 can only be alive (or dying) and there are millions of them (well until the planet exploded, there are less now).


not really my point is that your average guardsman doesn't survive his first campaign, your average marine does.



Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 02:02:08


Post by: epronovost


BrianDavion wrote:
epronovost wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
an average age 25 cadian is proably dead


That's a quintessentially illogical statement. An average Cadian of age 25 can only be alive (or dying) and there are millions of them (well until the planet exploded, there are less now).


not really my point is that your average guardsman doesn't survive his first campaign, your average marine does.



Says who? A 16 years old Space Marine scout with three years of training and surgery isn't exactly in a better spot than your average guardsmen with similar training time. Plus your Scout Space Marine age 16 is basically doing the most dangerous job in an army, light infantry recon, the one that requires the most skills and they are probably going to be deployed against the Imperium toughest foe since that's the entire Space Marine shtick (and most other armies use elite units for light recon). His chances of survival might be even lower than that of your average Cadian whose first campaign will probably be holding some fortress from a horde of chaos cultist and Chaos Marines. Plus all of this is completely irrelevant to stealth missions.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 04:52:52


Post by: Apple fox


I think when reading though this, you end up eroding what makes something cool, by justification of Rule of cool.

Space marines end up being just so super cool and powerful that they are uncool and take away from the setting of 40k.

The same reason people don’t really seem to like the jumping and back flipping of terminators is that there fantasy of personal tank armour is just that.
If you take away there big disadvantage you take away from what makes them interesting as well.
And seems to just steal away at the fantasy of others, if space marines can be so stealthy and sneaky, the question must be asked why those marines have survived so long.
Why can other races not do the same, how come the Tau stealth suits don’t decimate marine lines.

Just makes 40k a less cool setting.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 06:16:43


Post by: BrianDavion


Apple fox wrote:

And seems to just steal away at the fantasy of others, if space marines can be so stealthy and sneaky, the question must be asked why those marines have survived so long.
Why can other races not do the same, how come the Tau stealth suits don’t decimate marine lines.



Google Corvin Severax....

spoiler alert.. he was the previous ravenguard chaptermaster who got killed by a stealth suit ambush... to the raven guard no less.

just because marines are damn good, doesn't mean that their oppisition isn't good. thats the thing about Marines, they're among the best humanity has sure, but that doesn't mean they're so good they're unchallanged.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 07:50:14


Post by: kirotheavenger


BrianDavion wrote:
Apple fox wrote:

And seems to just steal away at the fantasy of others, if space marines can be so stealthy and sneaky, the question must be asked why those marines have survived so long.
Why can other races not do the same, how come the Tau stealth suits don’t decimate marine lines.



Google Corvin Severax....

spoiler alert.. he was the previous ravenguard chaptermaster who got killed by a stealth suit ambush... to the raven guard no less.

just because marines are damn good, doesn't mean that their oppisition isn't good. thats the thing about Marines, they're among the best humanity has sure, but that doesn't mean they're so good they're unchallanged.

Kinda, but also not.
Shadowsun used a dummy of herself to lure out Corvin, who they then ambushed with Ghostkeel battlesuits. This was nowhere near "standing in a room, breathing down their neck, undetected" level of stealth.

Those Damocles books were a trip. Very clearly written by a Tau fan! Everything the Imperials succeeded in they only succeeded in because Shadowsun let them to have a big ambush later.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 07:58:49


Post by: Haighus


 kirotheavenger wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Apple fox wrote:

And seems to just steal away at the fantasy of others, if space marines can be so stealthy and sneaky, the question must be asked why those marines have survived so long.
Why can other races not do the same, how come the Tau stealth suits don’t decimate marine lines.



Google Corvin Severax....

spoiler alert.. he was the previous ravenguard chaptermaster who got killed by a stealth suit ambush... to the raven guard no less.

just because marines are damn good, doesn't mean that their oppisition isn't good. thats the thing about Marines, they're among the best humanity has sure, but that doesn't mean they're so good they're unchallanged.

Kinda, but also not.
Shadowsun used a dummy of herself to lure out Corvin, who they then ambushed with Ghostkeel battlesuits. This was nowhere near "standing in a room, breathing down their neck, undetected" level of stealth.

Those Damocles books were a trip. Very clearly written by a Tau fan! Everything the Imperials succeeded in they only succeeded in because Shadowsun let them to have a big ambush later.

Except the assassination of Aun'Va, but yeah, it was a bit one-sided.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 08:02:57


Post by: Vatsetis


Is there any BL book that is not completelly one sided in favour of the protagonists?


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 08:06:35


Post by: kirotheavenger


I don't know if they're Black Library but I've enjoyed a lot of the old Imperial Armour books, they feel a lot more interesting and neutral


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 08:07:35


Post by: Haighus


Vatsetis wrote:
Is there any BL book that is not completelly one sided in favour of the protagonists?

Generally the better ones, yes. Even though someone must eventually prevail. Look at the struggles of Inquisitor Eisenhorn for example.

Also, the Damocles books above are campaign books. They are supposed to offer something for both sides in the conflict because they are designed for players to build armies around. Generally, they are less one-sided, like the Armageddon conflict.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 08:08:09


Post by: Vatsetis


Good point. I have a couple of those in the cellar.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 08:08:35


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Haighus wrote:

Except the assassination of Aun'Va, but yeah, it was a bit one-sided.

True, but even then two Assassins failed to kill Farsight, then a third, a Callidus, lost a melee duel with Shadowsun


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 08:09:53


Post by: Haighus


 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Haighus wrote:

Except the assassination of Aun'Va, but yeah, it was a bit one-sided.

True, but even then two Assassins failed to kill Farsight, then a third, a Callidus, lost a melee duel with Shadowsun

Only the Ethereal died...

...So the writer was not just a Tau fan, but specifically a Farsight Enclaves fan?


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 08:17:03


Post by: kirotheavenger


I assumed Aun'Va's death was decided beforehand as part of the wider End Times- I mean Gathering Storm storyline, so that was a static element out of his control!

Which is arguably the same for Farsight and Shadowsun, I'm not annoyed that they survived the book.
But I say if you don't want to kill a character, don't place them in a situation where they would surely die!
To put them in that situation then pull something out of your arse is bad writing.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 08:29:47


Post by: Haighus


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I assumed Aun'Va's death was decided beforehand as part of the wider End Times- I mean Gathering Storm storyline, so that was a static element out of his control!

Which is arguably the same for Farsight and Shadowsun, I'm not annoyed that they survived the book.
But I say if you don't want to kill a character, don't place them in a situation where they would surely die!
To put them in that situation then pull something out of your arse is bad writing.

You're right there. It would have been better to have the Callidus caught at like the final checkpoint or something, and then have Shadowsun gun them down from a distance as they tried to flee the scene.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 08:41:39


Post by: BrianDavion


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I assumed Aun'Va's death was decided beforehand as part of the wider End Times- I mean Gathering Storm storyline, so that was a static element out of his control!

Which is arguably the same for Farsight and Shadowsun, I'm not annoyed that they survived the book.
But I say if you don't want to kill a character, don't place them in a situation where they would surely die!
To put them in that situation then pull something out of your arse is bad writing.


they really need to get around to replacing Aun'VA. put out a new plastic etheral character mini that blows away the old Aun'Va mini, and make him the new etherial leader. it's not like they have to get rid of the old one, we've still got typho and sergent kell around


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/12 09:05:49


Post by: changemod


 Haighus wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Apple fox wrote:

And seems to just steal away at the fantasy of others, if space marines can be so stealthy and sneaky, the question must be asked why those marines have survived so long.
Why can other races not do the same, how come the Tau stealth suits don’t decimate marine lines.



Google Corvin Severax....

spoiler alert.. he was the previous ravenguard chaptermaster who got killed by a stealth suit ambush... to the raven guard no less.

just because marines are damn good, doesn't mean that their oppisition isn't good. thats the thing about Marines, they're among the best humanity has sure, but that doesn't mean they're so good they're unchallanged.

Kinda, but also not.
Shadowsun used a dummy of herself to lure out Corvin, who they then ambushed with Ghostkeel battlesuits. This was nowhere near "standing in a room, breathing down their neck, undetected" level of stealth.

Those Damocles books were a trip. Very clearly written by a Tau fan! Everything the Imperials succeeded in they only succeeded in because Shadowsun let them to have a big ambush later.

Except the assassination of Aun'Va, but yeah, it was a bit one-sided.


I mean, if you're aware how much Aun'Va's been cynically socially engineering Tau society and forcing them into aggressive warfare without much care for the wellbeing of his citizens, you could argue getting rid of him is entirely a pro for a Tau fan.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/13 00:27:43


Post by: Lord Blackscale


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I assumed Aun'Va's death was decided beforehand as part of the wider End Times- I mean Gathering Storm storyline, so that was a static element out of his control!

Which is arguably the same for Farsight and Shadowsun, I'm not annoyed that they survived the book.
But I say if you don't want to kill a character, don't place them in a situation where they would surely die!
To put them in that situation then pull something out of your arse is bad writing.


Apparently Shadowsun can out fight a White Scars Kahn wielding a power sword using only a knife.

More on topic, Night Lords are well known for stealth as well. One part of the Night Lords Trilogy has one hiding in a ceiling and lowering himself behind a human without making a sound. Love those books.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/08/13 05:50:38


Post by: Vatsetis


Like the Spanish Inquisition... No one expects the stealthy Astartes!!!


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/05 09:27:30


Post by: gunchar


Vatsetis wrote:

You cannot be Hulk and Batman at the same time.


That's kinda the concept of Wonder Woman though, not in terms of being a huge mass-monster but in terms of combining insane strength with insane speed and unrealistically effective martial arts plus stealth skills(not quite as stealthy as Batman though).


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/05 16:32:00


Post by: Vatsetis


She is literally a Goddess.

Certainly if we compare a regular Astartes with Rey from SW or Goku from Dragon Ball... They are sort of underwhelning.

Perhaps there is still room to increase the Power Level of "Da Kustum Boyz" fantasy.



Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/05 23:00:38


Post by: pelicaniforce


Vatsetis the giant marines and the stealthy marines don’t even exist in the same universe.

Most of the marines’ enhancements are invisible. Their bones are made from the same thing as ballistic plate. Their Lyman’s ear improves their equilibrium so they can make good shots and close combat moves. These are things that aren’t shown well in models and illustrations.

There’s this assumption thats not in the text but is made by people anyway, that because marines are enhanced that they must be giants who can throw a car down the block like a shot-put. Even in these threads there are people saying eight feet tall. That number just doesn’t exist in codexes or white dwarf. It’s just in the popular imagination and GW have in a way just gone with it.

GW have shrugged their shoulders, taken this idea of giant marines, incorporated into subsequent pictures and novels, and sold it back to the people who generated it. Clearly it’s what people want so GW sells it to them.

The two concepts exist in separate but simultaneous universes. The modern gene-seed marines as described in the text are tall humans, not giants. Simultaneously, for maybe over 20 years, GW has also accepted that they’re selling marines who are >8 feet tall and 455 kg. Even though the codexes technically say 7 or <7ft, this is only a technicality. The marines in the source text and the marines as reinterpreted by fans and sold back to them by GW are in different conceptual universes.

The reasons they’re tall are so they can handle two-man lascannon like a large rifle, and so they can be the biggest person in a room made for humans. They’re tall so they can use a human size light squad weapon, a bolt gun, like an SMG. They don’t have, just for the sake of having a big gun, special bigger bolt guns. Except, in the version imagined by customers and sold back by GW, they do have special large bolt guns just for the sake of having big guns.

They exist simultaneously and in parallel. They don’t conflict, because they’re parallel. There’s a source version where some contradictions are addressed, and a commodity version where nobody notices contradictions.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/06 00:34:23


Post by: chromedog


Yup. The 8' tall marines idea originally comes from ONE photo of Jes Goodwin sitting in front of a "scale" drawing of a marine, where the top of his backpack is at the 8' mark ...

... but the soles of his boots start at 1' (literally. It's ground level.)

Everybody wants 8' tall marines. NOBODY wants 7' tall marines in 1' platform heels.



Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/06 06:34:27


Post by: Vatsetis


pelicaniforce wrote:
Vatsetis the giant marines and the stealthy marines don’t even exist in the same universe.

Most of the marines’ enhancements are invisible. Their bones are made from the same thing as ballistic plate. Their Lyman’s ear improves their equilibrium so they can make good shots and close combat moves. These are things that aren’t shown well in models and illustrations.

There’s this assumption thats not in the text but is made by people anyway, that because marines are enhanced that they must be giants who can throw a car down the block like a shot-put. Even in these threads there are people saying eight feet tall. That number just doesn’t exist in codexes or white dwarf. It’s just in the popular imagination and GW have in a way just gone with it.

GW have shrugged their shoulders, taken this idea of giant marines, incorporated into subsequent pictures and novels, and sold it back to the people who generated it. Clearly it’s what people want so GW sells it to them.

The two concepts exist in separate but simultaneous universes. The modern gene-seed marines as described in the text are tall humans, not giants. Simultaneously, for maybe over 20 years, GW has also accepted that they’re selling marines who are >8 feet tall and 455 kg. Even though the codexes technically say 7 or <7ft, this is only a technicality. The marines in the source text and the marines as reinterpreted by fans and sold back to them by GW are in different conceptual universes.

The reasons they’re tall are so they can handle two-man lascannon like a large rifle, and so they can be the biggest person in a room made for humans. They’re tall so they can use a human size light squad weapon, a bolt gun, like an SMG. They don’t have, just for the sake of having a big gun, special bigger bolt guns. Except, in the version imagined by customers and sold back by GW, they do have special large bolt guns just for the sake of having big guns.

They exist simultaneously and in parallel. They don’t conflict, because they’re parallel. There’s a source version where some contradictions are addressed, and a commodity version where nobody notices contradictions.


This post was mind blowing. Thanks pal!

You have sholve all my existencial questions regarding this issue... you make me so happy.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/06 07:43:42


Post by: Da Boss


7 feet tall and fully muscled out is already going to be absolutely massive in human terms. I don't see a need to make them taller than that at all. I'm happy with my "big, but not giant" marines.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/17 17:50:20


Post by: Racerguy180


I'm 6'8" & 250lbs and compared to Shaq(height wise) I'm short.

So add an inch or 2 to Shaq(7') now add armour to bulk out an even larger frame. Huge is an understatement.

I guess 8' isn't unreasonable for an abnormally large Astartes.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/18 16:06:56


Post by: Deadnight


Racerguy180 wrote:
I'm 6'8" & 250lbs and compared to Shaq(height wise) I'm short.

So add an inch or 2 to Shaq(7') now add armour to bulk out an even larger frame. Huge is an understatement.

I guess 8' isn't unreasonable for an abnormally large Astartes.


Take shaq, add an inch or two maybe, give that giant matt fraser or Eddie halls physique, and then add the bulky armour on top of it.

Christ, that monster doesn't even need to be taller than 7 foot to absolutely dominate any Space theure in. Bloody terrifying. I'm tall and I'm a mouse in comparison.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/18 16:33:16


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’m a relatively meagre 6’2”. Tall enough to widely considered tall, but still “short” enough to think “flipping heck!” when I meet someone 6’4”+

And as Deadnight said, add in Eddie Hall or Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson’s physique, but all muscle? That’s…..new trousers Matron o’clock, let alone a Marine’s battle plate and what that does for their strength.

Oh, and they’re also faster in terms of speed and reactions than Usain Bolt and *insert martial artist of your choice*.

And they don’t tire as we do.

That is what I meant by Ninja Astartes in the OP. Not necessarily the stealth (though one suspects an unarmoured Astartes is far quieter when skulking than we can comprehend) aspect, but the raw speed and skill of combat.

They’re not great big lumbering lummoxes. And that is what makes them terrifying.

They won’t just punch your head clean off your shoulders, but will do that to all your mates before anyone has the time to think ‘blimmin’ ‘eck, that ‘url!”


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/18 17:20:43


Post by: epronovost


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh, and they’re also faster in terms of speed and reactions than Usain Bolt and *insert martial artist of your choice*.


That's dubious at best. Many highly trained humans have been shown to be capable of holding their own in close combat against Space Marines either in novels, short stories or GW promotional animation. It's thus highly, highly unlikely they are faster then the fastest human since they have been shown to be just as fast as humans who definitely not the fastest.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/18 19:47:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


The “mere” humans there are the exception.

One might be faster than an Astartes, sure. But they can be *slightly* slower than you for far longer than you can be faster than them. And even a glancing blow to the bonce is gonna shake your gravy in a way that will wreck you.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/18 20:42:46


Post by: Vatsetis


epronovost wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh, and they’re also faster in terms of speed and reactions than Usain Bolt and *insert martial artist of your choice*.


That's dubious at best. Many highly trained humans have been shown to be capable of holding their own in close combat against Space Marines either in novels, short stories or GW promotional animation. It's thus highly, highly unlikely they are faster then the fastest human since they have been shown to be just as fast as humans who definitely not the fastest.


That only happened because the SM was self limiting itself to make the fight interesting.

SM are, by definition, the best at absolutly everything... They have extra organs and the power of corporate marketing on their side


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/18 22:17:58


Post by: BrianDavion


we also see normal humans holding their own against eldar in the fluff too IIRC. the fluff is inconsistant


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/09/18 23:24:45


Post by: epronovost


BrianDavion wrote:
we also see normal humans holding their own against eldar in the fluff too IIRC. the fluff is inconsistant


The fluff is actually rather consistent on one point. If you are a hero of any faction, you can defeat a hero of any other faction even if it looks far fetch and massively improbable. After all, Space Marines have successfully dueled Hive Tyrants who are stronger, faster, bigger, smarter than them to a high degree and powerful psykers easily on par as the greatest Librarians. On paper, it doesn't make any lick of sense, but it does. I attribute this to a rather "comic book style" where in one issue a character is basically all powerful and quasi divine and the other it's defeated by Batman.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/11/19 12:00:39


Post by: Haighus


Apologies for the last post being 2 months ago today, but this is directly relevant to the discussion.

I have come across an interesting tidbit on an archived page from the old 3rd war for Armageddon event website.

These excepts are from a communication log sent by stormtrooper Captain Harkavian of the 1st Black Guard Strike Force, based in Helsreach Hive. They are requesting that the Asgardian Rangers be deployed to an extended reconnaissance mission within an area of the Ash Wastes plagued by fast-moving Ork warbands.

However, I feel that the Asgardian Rangers have many advantages in their use throughout this warzone above and beyond Scouts of the Space Marines

...the Asgardian's ability to stay in the field and subsist in the most desolate of areas will prove invaluable. Marine Scouts mounted on bikes will be constrained by the need for fuel, for resources are sparse in the Ash Wastes and they will also suffer in situations where stealth, rather than skill at arms, is required.

I have no wish to impugn the skills of the Adeptus Astartes. I pray to the Emperor that just one squad of their warriors could join us here in the defence of Helsreach, for they alone could turn the tide of battle. But in the duty of watching and recording Ork forces beyond the Hemlock Cordon, the Asgardian Rangers must be the clear choice. No other army on the planet has their skill or knowledge of reconnaissance within enemy held territory.


The full log is in the link above. Within it, the stormtrooper officer is quite clear that Astartes scouts, whilst effective, are better suited to combat-stealth missions rather than pure stealth missions, and are not as effective in the latter as dedicated human recon troops. With regards to the particular conditions of this warzone, they also note that Space Marines on bikes are not as sustainable or stealthy as recon guardsmen using specialised roughrider mounts.

Whilst obviously not definitive, and referring to the Salamanders (a Chapter not especially noted for stealth), it heavily supports the idea that Marines can do stealth well, but not as well as humans specialised in stealth operations.

RIP rough riders Maybe we could hope for a killteam release or something.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/11/20 18:04:39


Post by: Irbis


That sounds like stormtrooper spanking or indication Salamanders have a really gak scouts. If nothing else, SM scouts have no morale issues, can eat anything, survive on 1/10 of rest and sleep human needs, see better (and in dark, too), can interrogate even dead enemies by eating brain matter, and you need less of them to match combat power of stormtrooper squad making again, for smaller and stealthier unit.

Even the roughrider point fails to hold any water once you realize SM can run as fast as horses, only for longer, being much smaller targets than a rider, making less noise, and being far less dependent on terrain. Try running your horse on rocky or uneven ground, a few minutes later you'll be forced to mercy kill mount with a broken leg that screams from pain giving your location to anyone within a few miles. Even humans can cover more ground in a day than a horse can (it's how we hunted them for tens of millennia, in fact, exhausting them in pursuit) and SC scout has vastly better speed and stamina reserves...


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/11/22 08:44:09


Post by: Da Boss


You forgot to mention that space marines can spit acid.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/11/22 11:28:59


Post by: Tarara


The full log is in the link above. Within it, the stormtrooper officer is quite clear that Astartes scouts, whilst effective, are better suited to combat-stealth missions rather than pure stealth missions, and are not as effective in the latter as dedicated human recon troops. With regards to the particular conditions of this warzone, they also note that Space Marines on bikes are not as sustainable or stealthy as recon guardsmen using specialised roughrider mounts.

Whilst obviously not definitive, and referring to the Salamanders (a Chapter not especially noted for stealth), it heavily supports the idea that Marines can do stealth well, but not as well as humans specialised in stealth operations.

RIP rough riders Maybe we could hope for a killteam release or something.


Depends. There is a reason why phobos pattern power armour was invented, and it was exactly to justify Marines being able to stealth with it's reduced moto-servors noise and lighter design. Proper camouflage and knowledge in moving silently and you basically have what Raven Guard and Raptors are. Size has little matter in it. Of course Astartes are soldiers first and their stealth is not your typical dungeon-rogue-type-of-stealth, but more of a fast assault from out of nowhere, or a pre-planned ambush. They are warriors first and assassins second.

When you think about it logically, Astartes are shock troops. Their modus operandi SHOULD by default include : shock assault, infilitration, sabotage, assassination and so on.

However for the purpose of wargaming, models and themes/flavours, most Astartes are similar to conventional ww1/ww2 troops, mediaeval armies, antiquity barbarians and so on, there's really no rule. And I think that's fine. This is fiction afterall.

If you want sneaky, ninja like Astartes, go play Raptors.
If you want sci-fi knights with greatswords, play Dark Angels.
Brutal Barbarians? Space Wolves, Minotaurs, Carcharodons, Flesh Tearers.... list goes on.


The fluff is actually rather consistent on one point. If you are a hero of any faction, you can defeat a hero of any other faction even if it looks far fetch and massively improbable. After all, Space Marines have successfully dueled Hive Tyrants who are stronger, faster, bigger, smarter than them to a high degree and powerful psykers easily on par as the greatest Librarians. On paper, it doesn't make any lick of sense, but it does. I attribute this to a rather "comic book style" where in one issue a character is basically all powerful and quasi divine and the other it's defeated by Batman.


Considering the weaponary Astartes have at their disposal, this is really not so surprising.


Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/12/11 21:58:10


Post by: Haighus


Ok, I want to be clear that no one is saying Astartes cannot be decent at stealth. But the suggestion in this thread has been that Space Marines are silly because they are the best at everything, or even that they are absolutely the best at stealth, when we have reasons for why this is not the case for Space Marines on the whole.

Of course, Raven Guard and some of their successors exist, and appear to have a passive, borderline-psychic ability to hide in plain sight as already discussed in this thread. Obviously, a lot of the GW writing on this is a bit gakky, but it is a common enough trope that it has to be assumed that Raven Guard have essentially supernatural stealth in order to be able to achieve the feats they have. They are not the Astartes norm though, and have few successors with not all of them demonstrating they have inherited this ability (such as Carcharodons).

 Irbis wrote:
That sou/nds like stormtrooper spanking or indication Salamanders have a really gak scouts. If nothing else, SM scouts have no morale issues, can eat anything, survive on 1/10 of rest and sleep human needs, see better (and in dark, too), can interrogate even dead enemies by eating brain matter, and you need less of them to match combat power of stormtrooper squad making again, for smaller and stealthier unit.

First of all, the Stormtrooper officer is not comparing them to his own troopers, although it does appear he has some squads secreted in the region for extra muscle should they be needed (not, it would seem, purely for reconnaissance).

Secondly, the rangers are specifically noted as also being able to subsist in the region without resupply, presumably living off the land. In this particular example, at least, the endurance benefits of scouts you mention are not needed, especially when taking into account that we are talking an entire regiment being dispersed into a region compared to, at best, a handful of squads.

Even the roughrider point fails to hold any water once you realize SM can run as fast as horses, only for longer,

Citation needed. Game rules obviously do not equal background lore. However they do provide an indication, and in literally every edition both have had rules, rough riders move faster than Space Marine scouts in battlefield conditions.

being much smaller targets than a rider

Fair point.

, making less noise

Citation needed, as compared to a Marine running full tilt.

, and being far less dependent on terrain. Try running your horse on rocky or uneven ground, a few minutes later you'll be forced to mercy kill mount with a broken leg that screams from pain giving your location to anyone within a few miles.

This is a fair point on versatility of reconnaissance rough riders vs foot scouts specifically, although the terrain is noted as being suited to rough riders in this example. Eitherway, the comparison still stands favourably against scout bikers, who are also hampered by rough terrain. Having said that, horses can traverse very rough terrain at low speeds, and if the terrain is rough enough to slow horses, it is also going to slow the Ork vehicles they are trying to outmanouevre...

Even humans can cover more ground in a day than a horse can (it's how we hunted them for tens of millennia, in fact, exhausting them in pursuit) and SC scout has vastly better speed and stamina reserves...

Yes, this is true for wild earth horses up to the present day (not that many wild horses are left). It is also generally true that cavalry has less strategic mobility in history than well-trained, fit infantry carrying combat loads (which has generally been elite infantry). It is not universally true for cavalry though- the Mongols (using 4-5 mounts per rider) were able to maintain a military strategic mobility greater than any of the infantry they were facing, suggesting the individual horses could outrun an armed human over days whilst carrying some equipment. Of course, Astartes have far more endurance than a human... but you are also assuming the "horse" of the 41st millenium is even close to the horse we see today.

I direct you to the following quote from the article:
Storm Trooper Captain Harkavian, 1st Black Guard Strike Force, Helsreach Hive wrote:We have witnessed the sheer speed of the Asgardian's biologically enhanced mounts, manipulatively bred for generations by Tech-Adepts.

I find it is rare to find a rough rider regiment in Astra Militarum lore that is not described as using some kind of enhanced mount, if they are even using horses. For example, the only currently supported rough rider unit is Death Riders, and their horses are genetically and cybernetically enhanced. I think it is highly implausible that we can extrapolate the abilities of current horses to 39,000 years into the future with the kind of certainty to say a Space Marine scout is definitely the superior physical specimen in both top speed and endurance when we have an actual primary source from the setting saying that these horses have better endurance than the Astartes motorbikes, whilst also providing enough speed to outrun Ork vehicles.


In summary, we have a situation where mobile stealth is needed for reconnaissance, and an in-universe source is stating that some specialised Imperial Guard riding horses can do it stealthier and better than some Salamander scouts on scout motorbikes. This does not seem at all implausible. It supports the notion that Marines are not always superior at stealth to non-Marine humans.



Ninja Astartes? @ 2021/12/12 00:30:49


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


 Nerak wrote:
I see two problems with this line of reasoning. The first being the opposition. The second being the astartes training. First problem. The opposition the astartes face is usually very competent. Eldar, necrons, tyranids and orks all have inhuman physics that let them to a greater or lesser extent fight on equal grounds with astartes. Yes the inhuman speed of an astartes would destroy a human. But imagine the fear of seing that speed and strength matched or even overcome. You'd probably collapse in fear.

Second is that astartes are trained in manners far surpassing that of any currently alive depicted hero. They only recquire very little to no sleep and spend almost all their time awake studying war and combat. You're not looking at just someone swinging away, using their strength and speed to their advantage. You are also looking at someone who knows every aspect of close quarter combat and can probably predict an outcome long before the first fist is swung.

As a side note I wanted to include this clip since you mentioned hallway fights. Probably the best hallway fight scene ever put to film, from the movie old boy.



Nah son, The Raid Hallway scene is the best ever.