Given that 99% of a SM Chapter Firepower is in their space Fleet (crewed mainly by chapter serfs and servitors) and that 99% of the IOM firepower is not in the hands of the Adeptus Astartes... and given that the IOM has no moral restictions on ussing indiscriminate firepower even against its own population... wouldnt the typical Astartes mission look pretty much like this?
No surprise a high number of Space Marines turn traitors since the IOM way of fighting war denies the porpouse of their very existence... it must be hugely frustrating to sacrifice your own humanity and decades of constant training to achieve a level of perfection that has no practical use.
Why does the 40K setting do so much to undermine the military significance of the poster boy faction?
I think this is a fantastic idea. Made so much worse when you consider the fact that they are taken as children, many chapters expect their initiates to die during training, they're indoctrinated, and are heavily genetically modified to no longer be human.
Could you imagine the rage and frustration a marine might feel considering how long they've been waiting to be used as an instrument of the Emperor only to be denied? As other Imperial factions could easily do without said marines.
There's probably enough war around for them to have their fair share of action. Their job might be less glamorous than they thought and consist of extanded period of boredom between missions, but they certainly face combat often enough.
I would also like to point out that in the first Dawn of War video game, Space Marines have line that became a meme "Heresy grows from idleness!" which they state when you order them to move around. It seems that they are keenly aware that waiting and doing nothing is one of the hardest thing they have to suffer through.
Vatsetis wrote: Given that 99% of a SM Chapter Firepower is in their space Fleet (crewed mainly by chapter serfs and servitors) and that 99% of the IOM firepower is not in the hands of the Adeptus Astartes... and given that the IOM has no moral restictions on ussing indiscriminate firepower even against its own population... wouldnt the typical Astartes mission look pretty much like this?
Population, yes. Infrastructure, no. There is always a lot of demand for someone to go in and remove the enemy commanders so the mop up forces can destroy enemy with infantry guns, not indiscriminate artillery strikes ruining irreplaceable stuff.
Also, SM are independent, and have fleets faster than anything else Imperium has. If they are first to emergency, local SM commander can do whatever he wants and no one is able to tell him otherwise. If he wants to do surgical strike or full on infantry battle, that's what his forces will execute and they will most likely be done and gone before Navy/IG arrives to mop up.
Vatsetis wrote: Given that 99% of a SM Chapter Firepower is in their space Fleet (crewed mainly by chapter serfs and servitors) and that 99% of the IOM firepower is not in the hands of the Adeptus Astartes... and given that the IOM has no moral restictions on ussing indiscriminate firepower even against its own population... wouldnt the typical Astartes mission look pretty much like this?
No surprise a high number of Space Marines turn traitors since the IOM way of fighting war denies the porpouse of their very existence... it must be hugely frustrating to sacrifice your own humanity and decades of constant training to achieve a level of perfection that has no practical use.
Why does the 40K setting do so much to undermine the military significance of the poster boy faction?
for a start because Space Marines are better disiplined then those man babies.
secondly because the marines would operate in CONJUNCTION with orbital support (there's a reason why space marines have had an "orbital strike" ability since at least 5th edition)
I imagine Marines useally soften a target up with an orbital strike and then drop pod in to root out anyone who managed to escape to bunkers etc
BrianDavion wrote: for a start because Space Marines are better disiplined then those man babies.
Half of the Adeptus Astartes rebelled because they felt daddy didn't like them enough. I think they are absolute man babies or at severe risk of man baby syndrome. Also it's not a case of man baby in the video above. It's a case of "I have worked and suffered for nothing".
BTW Vartis, I gotta ask, you're sure posting an aweful lot of passiver agressive "durr marines suxorz! and they're illogical" posts. You got a purpose for this or are you just trolling?
Why does the 40K setting do so much to undermine the military significance of the poster boy faction?
You can't use 'nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure' to acheive every tactical objective.
For example, it doesn't really work for:
'Take the enemy VIP prisoner.we need to interrogate them'.
'Rescue the governor'.
'Sabotage this objective. It's 30km below the surface so our nukes can't get it'.
'We need the infrastructure intact. Its an ad mech facility so we can't just drop an airstrike on its head'.
'Optics. Zometimes the emperors justice needs the 'personal touch'. Seeing us whip his head off his shoulders with a chsinsword sends a far stronger message than turning the city to glass'.
'...because I want to tear the [bleeps] apart with my bear hands!'
'Yeah, we've used up all our nukes. Captain was a bit gung-ho earlier and expended all our ordnance. We gotta whip these buggers the old fashioned way.gtqb your chainswords boys!'
Vatsetis wrote: Given that 99% of a SM Chapter Firepower is in their space Fleet (crewed mainly by chapter serfs and servitors) and that 99% of the IOM firepower is not in the hands of the Adeptus Astartes... and given that the IOM has no moral restictions on ussing indiscriminate firepower even against its own population... wouldnt the typical Astartes mission look pretty much like this?
No surprise a high number of Space Marines turn traitors since the IOM way of fighting war denies the porpouse of their very existence... it must be hugely frustrating to sacrifice your own humanity and decades of constant training to achieve a level of perfection that has no practical use.
Why does the 40K setting do so much to undermine the military significance of the poster boy faction?
How many turn traitor? A high number is just wrong. Second, they are fully indoctrinated using drugs and hypnosis. Questioning with way things isn’t in there dna, literally. And you are ignoring all the evidence saying that is not how they wage war at all.
What is the point of all these posts, and all your comments in general? What are you adding to the community here? I hope it’s more than just trolling but don’t see anything else so far.
Yeah, you have to read some lore. Marines are very resistant to taint. That's why it's such a big deal when they turn traitor, in a very few events (Badab War, that one false crusade in the Eye of Terror, The Heresy...). Nowadays, because "your dudes, your paint scheme" GW gives lots of examples of new traitors, but keep in mind the Imperium of man has been around for longer than the current human history.
And no, they fulfill their existence because 40k is a setting about war on the ground. They are always (sometimes stupid) reasons to 1) not exterminatus a world
2) take it with boots on the ground.
My interpretation is that Marines have a VERY limited emotional range. They're kind of developmentally frozen in a prepubescent boy's idea of a big strong manly man that can kill anyone. Their interests and drives are pretty inhuman and they lack empathy. So I'd say applying real world psychological syndromes to them doesn't really work. They're already insane by normal human standards and would not be able to relate to us at all.
As for turning to chaos, I reckon it makes sense that Marines would go rogue reasonably regularly. Whether that's just deciding they want to do whatever they like without orders from the Imperium or their chapter leaders, or full blown chaos worship I dunno. I'd see Marines as pretty vulnerable to some aspects of chaos, and pretty immune to other aspects. I'm surprised the majority of chaos space marines don't fall into Khorne worship for example if they are devout.
BrianDavion wrote: BTW Vartis, I gotta ask, you're sure posting an aweful lot of passiver agressive "durr marines suxorz! and they're illogical" posts. You got a purpose for this or are you just trolling?
Its Vatsetis.
Not trolling at all.
Its just the more I think about it the more I view the Astartes as a complete liability to the IOM... The IOM has excelent elite specialized forces in the form of Custodes, Assasins, GK and deatchwatch* amongst others. They have huge armies of sorotitas, ad mech and imperial guards. A regular SM Chapter apart from having good ships gives nothing to the IOM military... Rather than a high tendency to rebel and join CSM.
Many stories and marketing material pretend that Adeptus Astartes are the protagonist of the setting... But if you think about it with some perspective they only exist as some sort of traditional tribute to the "golden age" of the Great Crusade.
Perhaps thats the reason why the IOM maintains the Adeptus Astartes reduced to such a tiny number... They are only a ritualistic propaganda tool.
I ask about this issues and most counter arguments I get is doubling down on the fanboy bolter porn power fantasy.
*I know both GK and DW are Astartes, but this are the only ones that IMHO make sense as chamber militants of the Inquisition... Rendering regular SM chapters pretty useless apart from giving manpowers to the DW.
Space Marine Chapters exist to allow for players to pick their own fun colour schemes and background for their armies. It makes less sense in the more codified and nailed down current era where a lot of stuff is focused on GW's created legions and chapters but the chapter structure wasn't ever really supposed to be something that stood up to scrutiny because it's just the easiest way to have player created armies that fit into the Imperium. And I'd say in that regard it's wildly successful and profitable for GW. The various legions which are now pretty valuable sources of revenue in specialist model lines and novels started as fairly one note 'Here's an example of a scheme for your dudes' stuff that gradually accumulated more detail until we are in the situation we are in today.
godardc wrote: Yeah, you have to read some lore. Marines are very resistant to taint. That's why it's such a big deal when they turn traitor, in a very few events (Badab War, that one false crusade in the Eye of Terror, The Heresy...). Nowadays, because "your dudes, your paint scheme" GW gives lots of examples of new traitors, but keep in mind the Imperium of man has been around for longer than the current human history.
And no, they fulfill their existence because 40k is a setting about war on the ground. They are always (sometimes stupid) reasons to 1) not exterminatus a world
2) take it with boots on the ground.
In lore Adeptus Astartes are more prone to becoming traitor than any other elite IOM organisation. Just take SOB, SOS or Custodes as an example.
Perhaps is because of their semi independent nature... Just like Knight which also have a tendency to join Chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote: Space Marine Chapters exist to allow for players to pick their own fun colour schemes and background for their armies. It makes less sense in the more codified and nailed down current era where a lot of stuff is focused on GW's created legions and chapters but the chapter structure wasn't ever really supposed to be something that stood up to scrutiny because it's just the easiest way to have player created armies that fit into the Imperium. And I'd say in that regard it's wildly successful and profitable for GW. The various legions which are now pretty valuable sources of revenue in specialist model lines and novels started as fairly one note 'Here's an example of a scheme for your dudes' stuff that gradually accumulated more detail until we are in the situation we are in today.
Certainly I wasnt commenting on the huge marketing succes of the Space Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean, all of the fancy stories people seem to enjoy so much of Astartes slaughtering hopeless garrison troops in wide bunker complex seem to be actually possible in setting... but only as a way of "blood sport" activity specifically created to maintain the Astartes happy and not realising how utterly tertiary they are to the overall military effort of the IOM... which will probably lead them to open rebelion.
It seems that the Heretic Astartes offer a clear "Astartes supremacist" political regime, where as the IOM in 40K has reduce the Astartes into some sort of relic/pet/theme park atrraction.
These threads reveal only a cursory reading of the lore, at best. You're obsessed, as so many other people are, with poking holes in the "logical consistency" of fictional stories - which are just that. Stories. They don't have to conform to your expectations.
Easy, Marines are really good at taking military targets without destroying them. Instead of blowing up an orbital defense platform, why not take it instead and use it against the enemy?
Think of Marines as a multitool. They're very capable at doing a number of things all the way from single-squad covert intel gathering, all the way up to fleet engagement and Exterminatus.
Ah yes, I forgot to remember that marines are ment to be the best at everything... Thats how some stories describe them... And making any criticism to the marine lore is some sort of obssesion... Perhaps Im falling into the sweet arms of the Dark Prince.
So, I've seen a lot of people defending marines here as extremely tired of the overabundance of marines in the model line and lore, and I'm one of them. It's not like these are games workshop white knights.
Vatsetis wrote: Ah yes, I forgot to remember that marines are ment to be the best at everything... Thats how some stories describe them... And making any criticism to the marine lore is some sort of obssesion... Perhaps Im falling into the sweet arms of the Dark Prince.
Because I dont like Adeptus Astartes to be portrayed as the "best at everything, no weakness faction"?
As I said multiple times I just want to make sense out of the lore. It just seems to me that despite all the marketing focus on the SM they seem like a liability to the IOM... IE the oportunity cost of Astartes is too high for the Imperium, whatever they do can be achieve better or cheaper by other IOM military institutions.
If they are indeed a multitool they will need the numbers to act independently... But a 1000 strong chapter can achieve almost nothing on its own.
BTW, if Im indeed a troll you should simply ignore me.
On another note I'm gonna note that if you think this is an issue for MARINES....
you sir need to take a look elsewhere.
Marines are psycho-indoctrinated, are part of a small close knit brotherhood where outright fatalities are proably quite rare, are long lived and will likely see their homeworld again (assuming their chapter maintains a homeworld)
Meanwhile GUARDSMEN are swept up into the guard, a orginization where heavy heavy casualties are the norm. ohh and with very very VERY few exceptions... will never see their homeworld again
So please tell me how the space marines are the ones who'll suffer morale issues
I'm sure it occasionally happens. But the beleaguered Imperium of Man do not have the luxury of abundant available options which the modern American military sports. The Imperium faces horrendous war on every side, and must strike out with what can be mustered. Think WW2 Soviets, Germans, Japanese and Chinese for an easy analogue. Or any WW1 country bar the USA. The Imperials are stretched too thin. Space Marines would generally get to do their job. They will also have ample opportunities to do so.
Vatsetis wrote: Ah yes, I forgot to remember that marines are ment to be the best at everything...
They aren't. But they're really good at a couple pretty valuable things, like storming ships/installations, and very fast strikes. Other branches like the Guard and the Navy are better at large protracted engagements and fleet operations, respectively.
Vatsetis wrote: Because I dont like Adeptus Astartes to be portrayed as the "best at everything, no weakness faction"?
As I said multiple times I just want to make sense out of the lore. It just seems to me that despite all the marketing focus on the SM they seem like a liability to the IOM... IE the oportunity cost of Astartes is too high for the Imperium, whatever they do can be achieve better or cheaper by other IOM military institutions.
Without trying to call you a "noob" or anything, are you new to 40k, it's a fantasy sci-fi setting where the logic is made up to suit the stories and results that make it interesting.
So, while you note there are Adeptus Custodes (from m31 to m40 literally didn't leave terra), Deathwatch (space marines), elite humans like sororitas and militarum tempestus. Space marines fill a space of not adeptus custodes, but far stronger than normal humans. That's why the Emperor made them, because there were some jobs that even 100x the Marines' numbers in normal humans couldn't do. Missions where you can't just bomb from orbit or deploy 100,000 guardsmen. You kind of just have to accept that Space Marines make sense / are necessary. Now, why are they necessary? Any reason you can think of.
It's true that the vast majority of the Imperium's strength is normal guys, the imperial guard, the navy.
But, the Emperor decided there were some wars where you really needed super-soldiers for certain tasks. And so, the Space Marines have been around ever since. The only 1000 guys per chapter may seem paltry, and it is. Originally the legions were up to 200,000 or more guys. They were split up to prevent another Horus Heresy. If as you say a chapter becomes disgruntled and feels unappreciated or like the Imperium has betrayed them, they might go renegade, and that has happened. Just only 1000 guys at a time, maximum. And often, this results in sending a half dozen other chapters to wipe them from existence, so it's not like they are actually more of a liability than a tool.
Also in regards to "best at everything, no weaknesses faction", that is exactly what they were designed to be. The weakness is not in the actual marines, but in how few of them there are, which you note yourself. They are also used as symbols of the Emperor's power, they are supposed to seem flawless and good at everything. And they are good at everything, not literally the best, but actually some factions are just Even More Good at that thing. Compared to the other things the Imperium has to offer, they are good at everything.
BrianDavion wrote: for a start because Space Marines are better disiplined then those man babies.
Half of the Adeptus Astartes rebelled because they felt daddy didn't like them enough.
Not...really. That describes a couple of the primarchs (including Horus and Lorgar), but their marines turned for a variety of reasons, including loving their immediate father-figure too much.
But then...
Magnus rebelled for being attacked for trying to help (granted, helping in ways that was destructive in ways he didn't understand/believe).
Angron rebelled for being betrayed by the Emperor when the first met (and being driven mad by the tech in his head)
Alpharius rebelled because... 5th dimensional chess.
Batmanuel rebelled because future visions told him he did.
Perturabo rebelled because he was petty about being 'that other siege expert' in a limited circle 18(19). His issue was as much with his brothers as daddy.
Fulgrim... got soul trapped and never had a choice.
Mortarian's actual motives still escape me, beyond 'trapped in the warp on a plague ship, what do?'
BrianDavion wrote: for a start because Space Marines are better disiplined then those man babies.
Half of the Adeptus Astartes rebelled because they felt daddy didn't like them enough.
Not...really. That describes a couple of the primarchs (including Horus and Lorgar), but their marines turned for a variety of reasons, including loving their immediate father-figure too much.
But then...
Magnus rebelled for being attacked for trying to help (granted, helping in ways that was destructive in ways he didn't understand/believe).
Angron rebelled for being betrayed by the Emperor when the first met (and being driven mad by the tech in his head)
Alpharius rebelled because... 5th dimensional chess.
Batmanuel rebelled because future visions told him he did.
Perturabo rebelled because he was petty about being 'that other siege expert' in a limited circle 18(19). His issue was as much with his brothers as daddy.
Fulgrim... got soul trapped and never had a choice.
Mortarian's actual motives still escape me, beyond 'trapped in the warp on a plague ship, what do?'
Mortarion had legitimate daddy issues: He was upset that Big E didn't let him climb to the top of a mountain and die despite it being very important to him. Additionally, don't Magnus and Angrons' situations also count by your metrics?
BrianDavion wrote: Morty just had issues that guy was just a giant ball of hate, rage, and self loathing
That describes basically all the "evil" Primarchs and maybe some of the more loyal ones. Dorn had some serious issues too as did Ferrus Manus and I'm not too sure Corax was all there.
BrianDavion wrote: Morty just had issues that guy was just a giant ball of hate, rage, and self loathing
That describes basically all the "evil" Primarchs and maybe some of the more loyal ones. Dorn had some serious issues too as did Ferrus Manus and I'm not too sure Corax was all there.
eh the loyalist ones where the more functional half. there's a scene in... I wanna say slaves to darkness where Horus is thinking and it's basicly like "...... for god's sake, why did all the people who rallied to me have to be the insane ones! I'd have won this already if I had Gulliman and Dorn"
.. course it never occured to him that if all the ones who followed him where the crazy ones maybe what he's doing was.. ya know... crazy!
BrianDavion wrote: Morty just had issues that guy was just a giant ball of hate, rage, and self loathing
That describes basically all the "evil" Primarchs and maybe some of the more loyal ones. Dorn had some serious issues too as did Ferrus Manus and I'm not too sure Corax was all there.
eh the loyalist ones where the more functional half. there's a scene in... I wanna say slaves to darkness where Horus is thinking and it's basicly like "...... for god's sake, why did all the people who rallied to me have to be the insane ones! I'd have won this already if I had Gulliman and Dorn"
.. course it never occured to him that if all the ones who followed him where the crazy ones maybe what he's doing was.. ya know... crazy!
I don't remember the title, but I remember the short story. He's also complaining to Ferus Manus' skull at that point...so ya know... crazy!
BrianDavion wrote: Morty just had issues that guy was just a giant ball of hate, rage, and self loathing
That describes basically all the "evil" Primarchs and maybe some of the more loyal ones. Dorn had some serious issues too as did Ferrus Manus and I'm not too sure Corax was all there.
eh the loyalist ones where the more functional half. there's a scene in... I wanna say slaves to darkness where Horus is thinking and it's basicly like "...... for god's sake, why did all the people who rallied to me have to be the insane ones! I'd have won this already if I had Gulliman and Dorn"
.. course it never occured to him that if all the ones who followed him where the crazy ones maybe what he's doing was.. ya know... crazy!
I don't remember the title, but I remember the short story. He's also complaining to Ferus Manus' skull at that point...so ya know... crazy!
So the Primarchs, essentially the marines archetype, are consistently describe as non functional from a mental POV (well like half of them) but Im trolling because I point out that they have a tendency for mental breakdown and rebelion... That makes perfect "40k" logic.
That the IOM basically needs SM to dealt with rebelious SM, certainly reinforce my POV.
BrianDavion wrote: the alrgest marine on marine civil war since the horus heresy was the badab war, which was basicly like 3 or 4 chapters that went renegade tops.
if marines where "always falling to chaos" wouldn't there be bigger conflicts?
or MAYBE, just MAYBE the chapter system has been reliable at stopping heresy
The Chapter system was designed for the cases where one rebellious Chapter cannot do that much damage. The Badab War was notable because several Chapters turned at roughly the same time and in an area where it proved to be difficult to expulse them. Individual Space Marines deserting or a few squad or combat group here and there is probably much more common than full Chapter rebellion.
BrianDavion wrote: the alrgest marine on marine civil war since the horus heresy was the badab war, which was basicly like 3 or 4 chapters that went renegade tops.
if marines where "always falling to chaos" wouldn't there be bigger conflicts?
or MAYBE, just MAYBE the chapter system has been reliable at stopping heresy
The Chapter system was designed for the cases where one rebellious Chapter cannot do that much damage. The Badab War was notable because several Chapters turned at roughly the same time and in an area where it proved to be difficult to expulse them. Individual Space Marines deserting or a few squad or combat group here and there is probably much more common than full Chapter rebellion.
proably, that's the case with just about every faction TBH, well aside from guard who it seems whenever they go traitor drag an entire star system into rebellion, but thats more likely because the guard don't deploy in small formations and thus when the guard go bad the rot has likely gotten to the top.
hell of the Imperium's elite only grey knights and custodes seem to be immune to the temptations of chaos.
So even the most notable weakness of the Astartes... Their hubris and tendency to fall into chaos, its being benied by the MAS "Marines Appreciation Society".
Just think about it for a second... If Thanos/Tzeecht snapped out of existence those few Astartes (loyal or traitor) currently in the Galaxy... Would the situation of the IOM really change that much? Perhaps some other organisation will have to do some extra work but that about it.
Disclaimer... The hardware and ship dont dissapear so most of it can still be used by the IOM.
Just think about it for a second... If Thanos/Tzeecht snapped out of existence those few Astartes (loyal or traitor) currently in the Galaxy... Would the situation of the IOM really change that much? Perhaps some other organisation will have to do some extra work but that about it.
the IoM would lose a few critical battles but no the grand strategic scope would likely not change.
congrats you've realized the real tragedy of the IoM.
Vatsetis wrote: So even the most notable weakness of the Astartes... Their hubris and tendency to fall into chaos, its being benied by the MAS "Marines Appreciation Society".
I don't think this has ever been said to be the SM most notable weakness, which is usually stated to be their low numbers and slow recruitment processes. Corruption is an issue because it provides recruitment for the Great Enemy, but it is not described as common outside the HH.
Just think about it for a second... If Thanos/Tzeecht snapped out of existence those few Astartes (loyal or traitor) currently in the Galaxy... Would the situation of the IOM really change that much? Perhaps some other organisation will have to do some extra work but that about it.
Disclaimer... The hardware and ship dont dissapear so most of it can still be used by the IOM.
The Space Marines make the hardware much more effective. SM fleet assets are optimised for orbital operations, which are very dangerous places for ships to fight in. Most more important planets (like hive worlds, forge worlds, fortress worlds, even industrial and civilised worlds) have strong orbital defenses that are well-shielded. Orbital bombardment of a hive city is an extremely dangerous affair because the city will likely have very powerful void shields (usually described as more powerful than ship-borne shields) and multiple defence laser and missile silo installations that can damage or destroy the heaviest ships. Orbital defense platforms are similar.
Space Marines can be deployed in manners that bypass void shielding, such as thunderhawks, boarding torpedos, drop pods, and maybe teleportation (all of these routes have been shown to penetrate void shields in some sources, but be affected in others, so there are likely a whole bunch of conditions for when they can penetrate shielding, however Marines are consistently shown to be able to deploy to and successfully assault shielded installations). They basically operate like a specialised, reuseable torpedo warhead that can storm a key facility and knock out part of the enemy's orbital defenses. Their ships are tough enough to make short attack runs in support without taking too much damage, but often cannot hang around trading blows until the Marines have opened holes in the defences. Very few other Imperial forces can perform these high-intensity planetstrike operations effectively, and none are as suited to it as Astartes (pretty much only Custodes could do it as well, but they are basically just super-Marines, but even rarer). The Badab war FW books actually have some really good examples of SM operating in this manner.
Part of the reason the Imperial Navy gets a bit sweaty about Astartes is because the above also works very well against voidships, and SM are not supposed to be fleet action combatants as capable as the Imperial Navy to keep them controllable. However, it is impossible for them to not have a good capability in fleet actions whilst retaining the above skillset the Imperium needs, so the Navy has to suck it up and content themselves with moaning about lances being fleet weapons and asking SM to stick to bombardment cannons. They are still at a disadvantage overall, but not as big a disadvantage as the Navy would like...
Well if Marines where just this... "Naval Infantry in Space", they will have some sort of in universe sense... (altough perhaps that would make reinforce the need for non oversized Astartes)... But they are shown as having an all capable military capability... Why do Astartes need a Land Raider or a Whirlwind in their intended role?
Vatsetis wrote: Well if Marines where just this... "Naval Infantry in Space", they will have some sort of in universe sense... (altough perhaps that would make reinforce the need for non oversized Astartes)... But they are shown as having an all capable military capability... Why do Astartes need a Land Raider or a Whirlwind in their intended role?
Because sometimes you need a big ol' tank that's pretty much impervious to a lot of dakka, and sometimes you need some of your own artillery and not need to liaise with the guard for it.
it's worth noting that Marine vehicles are GENERALLY lighter then guard vehicles. the super heavy Marine tanks are all aging relics of the heresy. the largest tank Marines have now is the land raider, which is a heavy transport, more so then a main battletank.
all Marine vehicles are lightweight and easily transported.
BrianDavion wrote: it's worth noting that Marine vehicles are GENERALLY lighter then guard vehicles. the super heavy Marine tanks are all aging relics of the heresy. the largest tank Marines have now is the land raider, which is a heavy transport, more so then a main battletank.
The Astraeus, Repulsor and Gladiator would all like to have a word with you.
BrianDavion wrote: it's worth noting that Marine vehicles are GENERALLY lighter then guard vehicles. the super heavy Marine tanks are all aging relics of the heresy. the largest tank Marines have now is the land raider, which is a heavy transport, more so then a main battletank.
The Astraeus, Repulsor and Gladiator would all like to have a word with you.
repulsor's roughly the size of a land raider, gladiator's about the size of a predator. While it's likely a THUNDERHAWK can't carry them, (I'm given the impression the T-hawk C was specificly designed to carry land raiders and rhino chassis vehicles specificly) we know Cawl designed a new "dropship" for primaris Marines called the overlord. that is basicly the "primaris thunderhawk" (I'm hoping GW takes the oppertunity to put a model of it out for IA so we know what the hell it LOOKS LIKE)
we know VERY little about it, but I'd bet Cawl designed a varient of it to carry marine tanks as it seems kinda odd he wouldn't have thought of that, (assuming they can't just drop the tanks from orbit and use their anti-grav pads to slow their drop to survivable speeds)
the Astraeus yeah is a bit odd as it doesn't really fit with modern Marine doctrine at all. I'm gonna guess that was just Cawl being bored
Vatsetis wrote: So the Primarchs, essentially the marines archetype, are consistently describe as non functional from a mental POV (well like half of them) but Im trolling because I point out that they have a tendency for mental breakdown and rebelion... That makes perfect "40k" logic.
That the IOM basically needs SM to dealt with rebelious SM, certainly reinforce my POV.
Marines, like everything the Emprah touched, are deeply flawed by his lack of humanity. He saw individuals as just tools to create his Great Ideal Human Civilization and it shows. His vision was doomed to fail from the start, like any other tyrant with the dream to remake mankind into his ideal New Human.
This really is like discussing stuff with a Flat Earther.
Cited explanations offered? Goal post moved, and a complete refusal to look at everything as a single thing, instead claiming if one thing doesn’t make sense taken out of context, nothing does.
I previously made allowance for the possibility of stuff getting lost in translation - but no, OP is just being deliberately obtuse.
Gert and Doc, perhaps you shouldnt make assumptions and judge my perceived tone.
Adeptus astartes are just trying to do everything perfectly in almost every sense, being the more diverse force in the setting while also being one of the smallest... This are many red pills to swallow.
If you are so sure, Im just troling, feel free to ignore me altogether. Its better for everyone.
Insectum7 wrote: Easy, Marines are really good at taking military targets without destroying them. Instead of blowing up an orbital defense platform, why not take it instead and use it against the enemy?
Think of Marines as a multitool. They're very capable at doing a number of things all the way from single-squad covert intel gathering, all the way up to fleet engagement and Exterminatus.
Only if said orbital platform has corridors tall enough and wide enough for Space Marines to be able to manoeuvre in. Space Marines in a tight corridor could be rendered completely immobile if you killed the marines at the front and the back, as there would quite simply be not enough room for the marines in the middle to get over the corpses of their fallen comrades. At which point you just fire a meltagun down the corridor to kill them all and pat yourself on the back at a job well done.
Insectum7 wrote: Easy, Marines are really good at taking military targets without destroying them. Instead of blowing up an orbital defense platform, why not take it instead and use it against the enemy?
Think of Marines as a multitool. They're very capable at doing a number of things all the way from single-squad covert intel gathering, all the way up to fleet engagement and Exterminatus.
Only if said orbital platform has corridors tall enough and wide enough for Space Marines to be able to manoeuvre in. Space Marines in a tight corridor could be rendered completely immobile if you killed the marines at the front and the back, as there would quite simply be not enough room for the marines in the middle to get over the corpses of their fallen comrades. At which point you just fire a meltagun down the corridor to kill them all and pat yourself on the back at a job well done.
Well you certainly won't take it with that attitude. :p
Marines can just walk on the outside of the thing, if necessary, on their way to the bridge or vulnerable section. Or teleport directly to the control center. But if they really can't board it, they can just blow it up. But what metters in the lore is that they in fact ARE really good at such operations. They don't have to succeed all the time, just enough to justify their existence.
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Vatsetis wrote: I would just buy a WH+ suscription just to watch such feat in a webseries.
You can read about a similar scenario in Ian Watsons Space Marine novel. Marines have trouble in the tight corridors of an underground Squat facility.
The architecture of 40K is repeatedly and near universally shown to be on the big side.
Sure, a Tau civilian structure might prove a difficulty for Marines. As would something built strictly to average human height.
Except….nothing is shown to be on that scale.
Tau stuff, given they’re slighter on average than baseline humans? Their military installations still need to be built on a scale where their own Battle Suits can operate - leaving plenty of comfortable space for any Astartes, up to and arguably including a Dreadnought.
Orky stuff? Mega-Armour, Killa Kans and Dredds all need to be able to walk the corridor.
Eldar? Wraith Warriors.
And that’s to say nothing of maintenance and other necessities.
Consider. At 6’2”, I’m somewhat in excess of average human male height globally. I’m just kinda tall. Yet? It’s flipping rare I find ceiling height uncomfortable. Doorways are slightly different, especially in historic buildings which I do like to visit (I really need to duck in castles). But I can still more or less fit.
Part of that is technological limitation of the construction type - others, particularly castles, another layer of defence as even my Paw at a mere 5’8” needs to duck through some castle doors.
But in 40K? There are practicalities medieval castle designers didn’t have to worry about - like your own heavy hitters being able to freely move about. Sure, they had to consider their own troops, but not actual war constructs and that.
Even Squats? Mining equipment tends to be somewhat bulky. Sure in purely civilian areas might be a tight squeak, but still far from impossible.
Example, carrying on my castle analogy earlier. At my size, the stairwells are awkward regardless of whether I’m going up or down (they near universally turn clockwise, so the Defender going down has the better footing, and their shield arm has the most space, whilst reducing both for the attacker going up. Gravity did a lot of the fighting with such a design!). And the head room is super limited. But I can still totally get up and down.
Sure, I’m not exactly facing someone trying to cut my bonce off - but then in the Astartes scenario, I’d have my power armour to take care of that.
You make several fairly dubious assertion. A bunker complex or a space station might not be designed to house war walkers. Why would a dreadnaught (or its equivalent in other races) operate in a bunker complex or in inside a space station? These things are design for field operations not to operate inside buildings. Tau battlesuits are designed to operate outside. That's why they have frikin' jetpacks. The same things goes for Dreadnaughts. Eldars like their things roomy in the first place, but they don't have static fortification and your chance of boarding their ultra fast and heavily armed ships are rather slim. Yeah sure, Space Marines can fight in hangar bays or maybe some of the more spacious main access corridors there are in Tau or human installations, but their size does limit where they can go. I wouldn't trust them to take out a Genestealer defense complex for example. These are designed to be cramped, human size and in corridor face to face with a genestealer, you are probably in deep trouble if you aren't packing a big flamethrower.
PS: You are two full feet smaller than a Space Marine. Back when they were 7 foot tall, they were more believable. Making them bigger was a mistake in my opinion. They went from very large, but still human-ish size to proper giants.
No building on Earth is designed solely around average human height. Ever.
Ceiling height varies from era to era (I live in a Victorian building, so very high ceilings). And I’d love you to show me a military or commercial installation (of which hypothetical space stations would have to fall into) where they’re designed solely around “how difficult can we make it for someone of above average heigh to move about in”. Because you still need your clear corridors for maintenance and the movement of materiel.
Sure, they might have some areas an Astartes couldn’t visit (think Jeffries Tubes out of Star Trek. But for the most part? And proven by the artwork of the setting we’re discussing? No bother at all for an Astartes.
How could a Space Marine ever move through environments like this?
Spoiler:
Or this?
Spoiler:
Seriously, it's like none of you have played the greatest 40k game of all time, Space Marine.
The game has you fight through trench works, civilian Habs, secret laboratories, and forge complexes. You fit through every single door you come across.
I love Space Marine. Awesome game and wonderful environmental design. But I also vastly preferred it when Space Marines were big, rather than gigantic, and I think 15 foot tall primarchs is absolutely ludicrous. Space Marine is DESIGNED for space marines. Obviously.
There are lots of areas in 40K where being that size would be a disadvantage. Smart opponents would take advantage of that. Marines would try to ensure battles were on favourable ground.
Saying there's no tight spaces for Marines in the 40K universe is weird to me.
Gert wrote: How could a Space Marine ever move through environments like this?
Spoiler:
Or this?
Spoiler:
Seriously, it's like none of you have played the greatest 40k game of all time, Space Marine.
The game has you fight through trench works, civilian Habs, secret laboratories, and forge complexes. You fit through every single door you come across.
Yeah! let's design a game in which the main character can do nothing!
Then let's use that sorry excuse of a game in which a Space Marine operation is composed of three marines, one captain, one sergeant and one battle brother and call it representative of anything! Yeah!
So now a Space Marine company is composed of three person, two of which are officers? That's what that games tells us.
No building on Earth is designed solely around average human height. Ever.
Ceiling height varies from era to era (I live in a Victorian building, so very high ceilings). And I’d love you to show me a military or commercial installation (of which hypothetical space stations would have to fall into) where they’re designed solely around “how difficult can we make it for someone of above average heigh to move about in”. Because you still need your clear corridors for maintenance and the movement of materiel.
Ok here's a very famous one:
It's the most famous system of Vietcong tunnels, the Cu Chi Tunnels. If you are even, US soldier size, this is going to be hell to fight inside. If you are 8 foot tall and almost 4 foot wide, you are just stuck. That's probably the standard setup for any Genestealer or chaos cult. Let's take it a bit further. 8 foot ceiling isn't all that rare in cheap buildings. It's more than enough for any human, but its too short of a Space Marine to fight effectively in such a scenario.
Da Boss wrote: I love Space Marine. Awesome game and wonderful environmental design. But I also vastly preferred it when Space Marines were big, rather than gigantic, and I think 15 foot tall primarchs is absolutely ludicrous. Space Marine is DESIGNED for space marines. Obviously.
There are lots of areas in 40K where being that size would be a disadvantage. Smart opponents would take advantage of that. Marines would try to ensure battles were on favourable ground.
Saying there's no tight spaces for Marines in the 40K universe is weird to me.
Tbh it’s not that there are no tight spaces for Marines, clearly there are (e.g. in the underhives there’s places tight even for small humans).
It’s more that the places that Marines are designed to fight in tend to be large enough for them to do so.
Yeah they’re not going to manage to squeeze into tight spaces in the underhive or go room to room in a slum land hab block, but that’s not what Marines are [i]for[/]. Other forces do it better and if they did have to encounter those environments they’d probably just blow them up.
Marines are more for attacking military installations, or the demesnes of the ruling elite, or major industrial installations - all of which tend to be built on a rather grand scale that generally accommodates them.
Please go and read the actual background and look at the associated artwork.
Please. Because “this one group did this once therefore you’re wrong” is kind of a valid, ish. But it also flies entirely in the face of the established architecture of the setting.
Please go and read the actual background and look at the associated artwork.
Please. Because “this one group did this once therefore you’re wrong” is kind of a valid, ish. But it also flies entirely in the face of the established architecture of the setting.
What you are looking at in the artwork isn't a realistic representation of the theatre of operation in 40K. You are looking at art. You are looking at the 40K equivalent of this
That's not how a battle between Alexander the Great and Darius looked like. It's not even how those people looked like. That's what an artistic representation of someone who knows of the event, but has never been there nor who was trying to make a pixel perfect representation of the event. It's mostly symbolic just like the picture bellow.
That's probably the sort of painting you would see in governors mansion.
Da Boss wrote: I love Space Marine. Awesome game and wonderful environmental design. But I also vastly preferred it when Space Marines were big, rather than gigantic, and I think 15 foot tall primarchs is absolutely ludicrous.
Firstborn Astartes are 8ft tall, the Primarchs were maybe a couple of heads taller meaning they would be at most 12ft tall.
Space Marine is DESIGNED for space marines. Obviously.
Yet it features environments not intended for Astartes use in-universe. Your point is invalid.
Saying there's no tight spaces for Marines in the 40K universe is weird to me.
Nobody is saying that.
epronovost wrote: Yeah! let's design a game in which the main character can do nothing!
The environments are background accurate so either Astartes can fit in most Imperial designed spaces or the game flew in the face of every aspect of 40k background.
Then let's use that sorry excuse of a game in which a Space Marine operation is composed of three marines, one captain, one sergeant and one battle brother and call it representative of anything! Yeah!
Have you actually played the game? Literally, in the first mission, Titus contacts the rest of the 2nd Company who are deployed around the area surrounding Manufactorum Ajakis.
epronovost wrote: .
PS: You are two full feet smaller than a Space Marine. Back when they were 7 foot tall, they were more believable. Making them bigger was a mistake in my opinion. They went from very large, but still human-ish size to proper giants.
Thankfully Firstborn/True/Real Space Marines are still 7 ft. and another reason why Primaris are a poor addition.
Da Boss wrote: I love Space Marine. Awesome game and wonderful environmental design. But I also vastly preferred it when Space Marines were big, rather than gigantic, and I think 15 foot tall primarchs is absolutely ludicrous.
Firstborn Astartes are 8ft tall, the
Canonically 7, as laid out by the Chaos Codex 6e, 7e
Have you actually played the game? Literally, in the first mission, Titus contacts the rest of the 2nd Company who are deployed around the area surrounding Manufactorum Ajakis.
Yeah I did. You are a captain that operates largely alone during the entire game. Right there you have something that is both contradicted by the fluff and common sense. An officer's role is to lead troops not go all commando. You are playing a Space Marine not the Doomguy.
Did you listen to a single line of Leadros's dialogue where he consistently says Titus is disobeying and disregarding the Codex? There is literally a bloody meme for crying out loud.
Spoiler:
One of the reasons Titus is arrested is because of his constant violations of the Codex as well as handling a Chaos tainted device.
Go play the game again and come back with better arguments.
40k’s architecture is on a massive scale, regardless of species.
Citation needed.
Space Hulk features cramped corridors which Space Marines can only fit down in single file formation. That would create the situation I described earlier if the front terminator was killed. The bulk of their body would block the corridor for the terminators following behind.
Hired Gun features many parts where Space Marines could not traverse due to needing to travel through tight spaces, even if it also features wide open spaces.
Just because you have grand structures doesn't mean that the actual architecture inside is also big. Seriously, go into any old cathedral and you will have some stupidly low doorways to get into certain areas, no matter how grand the building is from the outside.
Man if only there was consistent graphic evidence of Imperial architecture being large and open.
Would anyone like to acknowledge the fact that not a single person has argued Astartes can fit in every single crawl space in existence or would you like to find fringe examples and pretend they're the norm?
It’s more that the places that Marines are designed to fight in tend to be large enough for them to do so.
This means you can easily neutralise the Space Marines as any kind of useful lightning strike force through simple architectural decisions.
That is a pretty big flaw for a fighting force which people constantly justify as "they can drop in and take out the leader in his bunker before anyone can react". All said leader needs to do is have his ceilings and corridors be small enough that the Marines cannot teleport in and he is now safe from the most elite troops the Imperium has. And sure, the Space Marines could blow his bunker from orbit, but you know who else could do that? The bog standard Imperial Navy. So what exactly are Space Marines for? Special Forces are supposed to be able to operate anywhere, not just anywhere where they won't get stuck due to their impractical size.
Da Boss wrote: I love Space Marine. Awesome game and wonderful environmental design. But I also vastly preferred it when Space Marines were big, rather than gigantic, and I think 15 foot tall primarchs is absolutely ludicrous.
Firstborn Astartes are 8ft tall, the Primarchs were maybe a couple of heads taller meaning they would be at most 12ft tall.
Yeah, definitely calling bullsh!t on that.
I strongly suspect a lot of the exaggeration about Marine size is related to expectations re: models and art. Players expect important characters to look impressive on the tabletop and in artwork, and therefore bigger. For example, the Emperor is portrayed as Primarch-sized, despite not being bioengineered himself.
In a practical sense, size has diminishing returns due to the laws of physics.
Gert wrote: Man if only there was consistent graphic evidence of Imperial architecture being large and open.
Some architecture, yes. Compare Roman public architecture that was built to impress (e.g. Colosseum, baths of Caracalla) with the ruins of insulae (apartment buildings) where common people actually lived. The latter were very cramped.
Likewise, 40k art tends to focus on the more impressive stuff.
Gert wrote: Man if only there was consistent graphic evidence of Imperial architecture being large and open. Would anyone like to acknowledge the fact that not a single person has argued Astartes can fit in every single crawl space in existence or would you like to find fringe examples and pretend they're the norm?
Considering investigating Space Hulks is one of the Space Marines' primary uses, them being too big to manoeuvre in the corridors where they will be fighting is a serious issue.
Point me to the artwork we have of the corridors of a Tau orbital defence station, or the corridors to travel about in an Ork Rok, or the corridors inside a Tyranid Hive ship (which would possibly be able to grow and shrink, like blood vessels, due to it being a living being).
Gert wrote: Did you listen to a single line of Leadros's dialogue where he consistently says Titus is disobeying and disregarding the Codex? There is literally a bloody meme for crying out loud.
Spoiler:
One of the reasons Titus is arrested is because of his constant violations of the Codex as well as handling a Chaos tainted device.
Go play the game again and come back with better arguments.
Precisely. How could a Space Marine rise to the rank of Captain if he can't follow protocol or doesn't even understand the basic role of an officer. Are they perfectly indoctrinated killing machines (and the captain being the best out of a hundred of them) or are they not? No matter how you spin it. You need huge leaps of logic and ignore the setting a lot for the requirements of a first person shooter. Had you been the sole survivor of a deathwatch commando trying to accomplish his mission, the entire thing would have been more plausible, but they wanted Ultramarines for the brand recognition.
Da Boss wrote:I love Space Marine. Awesome game and wonderful environmental design. ...Space Marine is DESIGNED for space marines. Obviously.
Have you considered that nearly all of 40k is designed for Space Marines to be able to fight things?
Or, as I reply to epronovost:
epronovost wrote:Yeah! let's design a game in which the main character can do nothing!
And that's why Space Marines can fight everywhere - because the game world in both the lore and art has been built to allow that.
Because, like it or not, GW have decided that Space Marines (disproportionally to their faction size in-universe) are the main characters, and therefore have made a setting where their main characters are capable of showing up and being effective.
It's as simple as that.
Then let's use that sorry excuse of a game in which a Space Marine operation is composed of three marines, one captain, one sergeant and one battle brother and call it representative of anything! Yeah!
So now a Space Marine company is composed of three person, two of which are officers? That's what that games tells us.
Actually, the game explicitly says that it's *not* what a full company is, and actually makes a reason why the initial force is so small - the orbital cannon is preventing reinforcements, and the only troops in that first gunship were Titus, his second in command, and a trusted Battle Brother. That doesn't seem unreasonable. Hell, later on in the same game, we see more Space Marines join, in more force. the initial operation feels much more fitting with what Space Marines *do* - small scale operations that break the back of the main enemy force, to make it more manageable for other troops.
epronovost wrote:What you are looking at in the artwork isn't a realistic representation of the theatre of operation in 40K. You are looking at art.
I mean, *are* we?
If you hadn't noticed, all of 40k is fictional. So which art is representative of 40k, and which isn't? Why is the example you listed symbolic? What says that it can't be accurate?
Sounds like you're making a wee bit of an assumption and dismissing what fictional sources we all have.
Have you actually played the game? Literally, in the first mission, Titus contacts the rest of the 2nd Company who are deployed around the area surrounding Manufactorum Ajakis.
Yeah I did. You are a captain that operates largely alone during the entire game. Right there you have something that is both contradicted by the fluff and common sense. An officer's role is to lead troops not go all commando. You are playing a Space Marine not the Doomguy.
Tell that to Uriel Ventris, Aeonid Thiel, and Cato Sicarius, captains/officers with recorded examples of going all solo and commando.
What Titus does is hardly unusual for Space Marine protagonists. So much for "contradicted by the fluff", and since when was 40k a setting of common sense?
Insectum7 wrote: Well Terminators can navigate Space Hulks, so PA Marines shouldnt be an issue.
And Orks can grow pretty big, obviously, and they have to maneuver about their own vessels.
I do agree on orks. They can be as big if not bigger than Primaris Marines. Navigating their ships should be fine. The same goes for Eldars who don't seem to enjoy tight corridors and cramped environment which negate their lethal mobility. They want the space to better kill you.
-Guardsman- wrote:In a practical sense, size has diminishing returns due to the laws of physics.
Of the many physics breaking issues in 40k, I wouldn't focus on Space Marine size.
A Town Called Malus wrote:Point me to the artwork we have of the corridors of a Tau orbital defence station
Wouldn't they need to account for Battlesuits and Kroot? Also, the Air Caste are rather remarkably tall, are they not?
or the corridors to travel about in an Ork Rok
Considering that Ork Nobs are larger than Space Marines, I'd have hoped that they can get through their own ships.
or the corridors inside a Tyranid Hive ship (which would possibly be able to grow and shrink, like blood vessels, due to it being a living being).
I do seem to remember some stories of Deathwatch operatives boarding Tyranid vessels - which are hazardous, but still boardable.
My counterpoint would be to show me artwork of Space Marines struggling to get through said environments.
epronovost wrote:How could a Space Marine rise to the rank of Captain if he can't follow protocol or doesn't even understand the basic role of an officer.
As I said above - tell that to Sicarius and Ventris.
epronovost wrote: Precisely. How could a Space Marine rise to the rank of Captain if he can't follow protocol or doesn't even understand the basic role of an officer. Are they perfectly indoctrinated killing machines (and the captain being the best out of a hundred of them) or are they not? No matter how you spin it. You need huge leaps of logic and ignore the setting a lot for the requirements of a first person shooter. Had you been the sole survivor of a deathwatch commando trying to accomplish his mission, the entire thing would have been more plausible, but they wanted Ultramarines for the brand recognition.
Because people change with time. The one thing that is made very clear about the Codex both within Space Marine and other media is that it is a set of guidelines, not hard and fast rules. In fact, the Codex specifically says not to follow the wording precisely so that enemies can't just perfectly counter every maneuver made. When Captains get to that rank they are already a veteran of the Chapter and know how to apply the Codex while not being predictable.
Field officers are often noted as creatively interpreting orders because the situation as it unfolds is never going to conform to the plans that are made, that's like combat 101. In the Ultramarines novels, Ventris is censured and sent on a Death Oath because he led a Deathwatch mission to kill a Tyranid Norn Queen. It was a tactically sound decision but because technically he broke the dictates of the Codex, he is punished. Just. Like. Titus.
Plus, Astartes officers don't fill the same roles as a modern officer would. They lead from the front.
A Town Called Malus wrote: or the corridors inside a Tyranid Hive ship (which would possibly be able to grow and shrink, like blood vessels, due to it being a living being).
There was an entire game published specifically involving Space Marines boarding Tyranid vessels called Tyranid Attack (also Advanced Space Crusade). Tyranid Warriors are able to move about inside Tyranid ships, so Marines definitely can. It is noted in the literature that there are spaces within a Tyranid vessel that are very hazardous, or that Marines cannot move through because they are too tight.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Of the many physics breaking issues in 40k, I wouldn't focus on Space Marine size.
True. Titan size is more of an issue. Giant walkers like Warlord titans could only possibly operate on low-grav worlds.
My counterpoint would be to show me artwork of Space Marines struggling to get through said environments.
Presumably their commanders are smart enough not to deploy them in places where their size is an issue. If a place is too cramped for Marines, they send in the Tempestus instead. Or they just flood the place with gas.
Vatsetis wrote: But do un armored orks weight as much as armored marines? ... If there is gravity that can an important factor.
I'm not sure how much time a Mega-Nob spends outside of their armor, since another Ork could obviously just steal it for themselves. If Mega-Nobs can move about, Space Marines can.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Of the many physics breaking issues in 40k, I wouldn't focus on Space Marine size.
True. Titan size is more of an issue. Giant walkers like Warlord titans could only possibly operate on low-grav worlds.
Absolutely, if we were to assume that physics are anywhere near the same - I must come to the conclusion that they aren't.
Better to just assume that they have a way around it. If Titans can all have suspensors which aid in their weight distribution issues, then any problem is solved without breaking physics.
Plus, Astartes officers don't fill the same roles as a modern officer would. They lead from the front.
They fill the exact same role. A captain in the US army commands a combat unit that has around 60 to 200 soldiers. A Space Marine Captain commands roughly around the same number. They have the same job. They are field officers. You simply didn't knew that the job of captain was to command troops and that they command roughly the same number of troops. That's why they are captains and not some sort of commandos. A captain's job is akin to that of a "junior officer" in the Imperial Guard.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Of the many physics breaking issues in 40k, I wouldn't focus on Space Marine size.
True. Titan size is more of an issue. Giant walkers like Warlord titans could only possibly operate on low-grav worlds.
Absolutely, if we were to assume that physics are anywhere near the same - I must come to the conclusion that they aren't.
Better to just assume that they have a way around it. If Titans can all have suspensors which aid in their weight distribution issues, then any problem is solved without breaking physics.
Yep, after all the average Astartes is smarter than Batman, so they would surely have some sort of anti-grav belt everytime they needed, Im also pretty sure that they have a shark repelent as standard issue equipment.
Insectum7 wrote: Well Terminators can navigate Space Hulks, so PA Marines shouldnt be an issue.
And Orks can grow pretty big, obviously, and they have to maneuver about their own vessels.
this you can't tell me marines would have trouble manuvering about an Ork vessel when some Ork warbosses (you know the guys making the decisions) are the size of a dreadnought.
epronovost wrote: They fill the exact same role. A captain in the US army commands a combat unit that has around 60 to 200 soldiers. A Space Marine Captain commands roughly around the same number. They have the same job. They are field officers. You simply didn't knew that the job of captain was to command troops and that they command roughly the same number of troops. That's why they are captains and not some sort of commandos. A captain's job is akin to that of a "junior officer" in the Imperial Guard.
A Captain in a modern military goes to officer training school and progresses along a different set of promotions compared to a non-commissioned soldier. NCOs are rarely given the option to become COs and being a CO doesn't automatically mean you are assigned to a combat unit. A modern CO might never see combat.
There are no non-commissioned soldiers in the Adeptus Astartes and a Captain has to have been a Scout, Devastator, Assault Marine, Tactical Marine, Sergeant, now also a Lieutenant and in most cases a veteran of their Company before being promoted. A Captain will have decades of service under their belt before they are even considered for such a position. Each Captain is also technically in command of their own Warship, although many delegate this duty to a dedicated naval officer be they mortal or Astartes. An Astartes Captain will always have combat experience.
The only similarity is the rank name.
Those Ghaz really need to navigate arround most of his capital ship? cant he just have a very wide command center and a teleporter or access to the hangar bay?
Because other factions have some units bigger than marines that dosent mean marines can navigate all the structures of such race? Not at all.
An intercessor or tactical marine is not a Dreadnought or a Titan... size matters for infantry in a different manner than to a mecha because they have different military roles.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Of the many physics breaking issues in 40k, I wouldn't focus on Space Marine size.
True. Titan size is more of an issue. Giant walkers like Warlord titans could only possibly operate on low-grav worlds.
Absolutely, if we were to assume that physics are anywhere near the same - I must come to the conclusion that they aren't.
Better to just assume that they have a way around it. If Titans can all have suspensors which aid in their weight distribution issues, then any problem is solved without breaking physics.
Yep, after all the average Astartes is smarter than Batman, so they would surely have some sort of anti-grav belt everytime they needed, Im also pretty sure that they have a shark repelent as standard issue equipment.
Insectum7 wrote: Well Terminators can navigate Space Hulks, so PA Marines shouldnt be an issue.
And Orks can grow pretty big, obviously, and they have to maneuver about their own vessels.
this you can't tell me marines would have trouble manuvering about an Ork vessel when some Ork warbosses (you know the guys making the decisions) are the size of a dreadnought.
Hell Ghaz is bigger then gulliman.
What makes you think the warboss ever bothers to go down to, say, engineering or gunnery?
And then there'll be bits of engineering which the Mek in charge doesn't go, because he just sends the grots to do that work.
Insectum7 wrote: Well Terminators can navigate Space Hulks, so PA Marines shouldnt be an issue.
And Orks can grow pretty big, obviously, and they have to maneuver about their own vessels.
this you can't tell me marines would have trouble manuvering about an Ork vessel when some Ork warbosses (you know the guys making the decisions) are the size of a dreadnought.
Hell Ghaz is bigger then gulliman.
What makes you think the warboss ever bothers to go down to, say, engineering?
Can you prove that they don't? Can you also prove that Marines need to go everywhere on the ship to be effective? Perhaps Marines only need to get to the bridge, which is incidentally the same space that the Warboss needs to go.
A Town Called Malus wrote: or the corridors inside a Tyranid Hive ship (which would possibly be able to grow and shrink, like blood vessels, due to it being a living being).
There was an entire game published specifically involving Space Marines boarding Tyranid vessels called Tyranid Attack (also Advanced Space Crusade). Tyranid Warriors are able to move about inside Tyranid ships, so Marines definitely can. It is noted in the literature that there are spaces within a Tyranid vessel that are very hazardous, or that Marines cannot move through because they are too tight.
Indeed, but seeing as a tyranid ship is alive, it could potentially open the passages for the tyranid warrior and shrink them for the marines in order to trap the foreign intruder.
What makes you think the warboss ever bothers to go down to, say, engineering?
Can you prove that they don't? Can you also prove that Marines need to go everywhere on the ship to be effective? Perhaps Marines only need to get to the bridge, which is incidentally the same space that the Warboss needs to go.
Because taking the bridge does nothing to prevent the orks in engineering from locking down controls to only be useable from engineering and setting the rok on a collision course to an imperial planet, or set their core to go critical in the midst of an imperial fleet and destroy it in a suicide run.
If you are trying to capture or scuttle a ship, you need to actually capture the ships vital functions at their physical locations. Which means more than just taking the bridge.
If you move controls to engineering (because Ork ships are the Enterprise I guess?), then can your Warboss be there too? If so, doesn't that mean that Marines could be there as well.
Also a reminder that even normal Orks can be pretty huge. Any Mega Armored Nob or even 'Ard Boy, Mek, etc are large, and would probably move about tunnels large enough for a Marine to fight through.
honet question for those claiming there'd be so space in engineering for marines.......
Have you ever been in a ships engine room? those things are HUGE.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Indeed, but seeing as a tyranid ship is alive, it could potentially open the passages for the tyranid warrior and shrink them for the marines in order to trap the foreign intruder.
Maybe that's one of the reasons why Marines try to board Tyranid vessels when they're still somewhat dormant.
The whole thrust of this conversation though is finding some particular things that marines can't do. . . which, nobody is saying they can do everything. All they have to do is be capable enough beyond some threshold of important tasks, which they clearly are.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Indeed, but seeing as a tyranid ship is alive, it could potentially open the passages for the tyranid warrior and shrink them for the marines in order to trap the foreign intruder.
Maybe that's one of the reasons why Marines try to board Tyranid vessels when they're still somewhat dormant.
The whole thrust of this conversation though is finding some particular things that marines can't do. . . which, nobody is saying they can do everything. All they have to do is be capable enough beyond some threshold of important tasks, which they clearly are.
aand nobdy except Vat is saying "Marines do it best"
Insectum7 wrote: If you move controls to engineering (because Ork ships are the Enterprise I guess?), then can your Warboss be there too? If so, doesn't that mean that Marines could be there as well.
Also a reminder that even normal Orks can be pretty huge. Any Mega Armored Nob or even 'Ard Boy, Mek, etc are large, and would probably move about tunnels large enough for a Marine to fight through.
Doesn't need to be the Enterprise. Remember that the controls on the bridge are just telling computers and machinery elsewhere what to do, such as gimballing the engines to change direction. You can also interact with that machinery directly with enough thought and ingenuity, especially likely on an Ork ship which will be comparatively crude.
Fighting in a tunnel offers a lot of drawbacks, number one being you are fighting in a tunnel. Its like fighting in a basement.
Having said that, its the kind of fight that a Terminator would love. Its almost like they were designed to fight in the corridors of a spaceship. For what its worth, you can find it throughout the lore. The HH books are full of boarding actions with all sorts of Marines getting into all sorts of hijinks aboard enemy vessels. Just saying.
For eprovonost: you do realize that 40K is a fictional setting, and that the artwork might actually be what the universe creators envision happening in those battles? Its been pretty consistent through the years. Just saying. The setting draws plenty of inspiration from real life, but I don't think it is meant to be a reflection of real life in military or social terms. There are some game systems out there for those who want to pretend to fighting a real war on our real planet Earth.
Regarding officers, I am a senior officer but I would not expect to be the best shot nor the person that gets sent to engage the mightiest foe in single combat (although the troops might find that hilarious...). I would, however, expect a Space Marine Captain to do just that. I also expect a Space Marine Captain to be a veteran of many campaigns, having risen through the ranks. By the time the reach Captain or Master they have acumen beyond their equivalent rank/appointment in the Guard.
Anyhoo. Lore fights. Gotta love'em! The fighting is so vicious because the stakes are so low.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Anyhoo. Lore fights. Gotta love'em! The fighting is so vicious because the stakes are so low.
Lol, I wish!! I've seen how fights about "real stuff" goes too and I'd hardly say it was civil.
I was referring to Sayre’s Law about academic debates. The intensity of the debate is inversely proportional to the actual importance’s of the issue. As opposed to debates on issues where we need to come to some form of agreement due to the fundamental importance of the issue.
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Anyhoo. Lore fights. Gotta love'em! The fighting is so vicious because the stakes are so low.
Lol, I wish!! I've seen how fights about "real stuff" goes too and I'd hardly say it was civil.
I was referring to Sayre’s Law about academic debates. The intensity of the debate is inversely proportional to the actual importance’s of the issue. As opposed to debates on issues where we need to come to some form of agreement due to the fundamental importance of the issue.
Anyhoo!
@Sayre's Law, Today I Learned. Yes I was thinking "importance of topic" but disconnected from the "importance/imperativeness of resolution".
Insectum7 wrote: If you move controls to engineering (because Ork ships are the Enterprise I guess?), then can your Warboss be there too? If so, doesn't that mean that Marines could be there as well.
Also a reminder that even normal Orks can be pretty huge. Any Mega Armored Nob or even 'Ard Boy, Mek, etc are large, and would probably move about tunnels large enough for a Marine to fight through.
Doesn't need to be the Enterprise. Remember that the controls on the bridge are just telling computers and machinery elsewhere what to do, such as gimballing the engines to change direction. You can also interact with that machinery directly with enough thought and ingenuity, especially likely on an Ork ship which will be comparatively crude.
Yet again, have you ever been inside an engine room? they're not small. the corridors leading to the engine room might be small but the engine room itself is in real life quite big, and in 40k is likely several decks easily.
Insectum7 wrote: If you move controls to engineering (because Ork ships are the Enterprise I guess?), then can your Warboss be there too? If so, doesn't that mean that Marines could be there as well.
Also a reminder that even normal Orks can be pretty huge. Any Mega Armored Nob or even 'Ard Boy, Mek, etc are large, and would probably move about tunnels large enough for a Marine to fight through.
Doesn't need to be the Enterprise. Remember that the controls on the bridge are just telling computers and machinery elsewhere what to do, such as gimballing the engines to change direction. You can also interact with that machinery directly with enough thought and ingenuity, especially likely on an Ork ship which will be comparatively crude.
Yet again, have you ever been inside an engine room? they're not small. the corridors leading to the engine room might be small but the engine room itself is in real life quite big, and in 40k is likely several decks easily.
I have. They're typically filled with massive engines taking up the vast majority of that space.
Insectum7 wrote: If you move controls to engineering (because Ork ships are the Enterprise I guess?), then can your Warboss be there too? If so, doesn't that mean that Marines could be there as well.
Also a reminder that even normal Orks can be pretty huge. Any Mega Armored Nob or even 'Ard Boy, Mek, etc are large, and would probably move about tunnels large enough for a Marine to fight through.
Doesn't need to be the Enterprise. Remember that the controls on the bridge are just telling computers and machinery elsewhere what to do, such as gimballing the engines to change direction. You can also interact with that machinery directly with enough thought and ingenuity, especially likely on an Ork ship which will be comparatively crude.
Yet again, have you ever been inside an engine room? they're not small. the corridors leading to the engine room might be small but the engine room itself is in real life quite big, and in 40k is likely several decks easily.
I have. They're typically filled with massive engines taking up the vast majority of that space.
sure but there's also a fair bit of room to move around in. and yeah a lotta equipment (TBH the real challange of sabotoging a starships engine room is proably "doing so in a manner that doesn't kill everyone in it, including yourself")
epronovost wrote:A captain in the US army commands a combat unit that has around 60 to 200 soldiers. A Space Marine Captain commands roughly around the same number. They have the same job. They are field officers. You simply didn't knew that the job of captain was to command troops and that they command roughly the same number of troops. That's why they are captains and not some sort of commandos. A captain's job is akin to that of a "junior officer" in the Imperial Guard.
Again, I've provided several examples of Space Marine captains performing non-leadership roles, and leading from either the frontlines, or *alone*.
The fluff doesn't support this idea that Space Marine Captains *only* occupy commanding roles, simply put.
What makes you think the warboss ever bothers to go down to, say, engineering?
Can you prove that they don't? Can you also prove that Marines need to go everywhere on the ship to be effective? Perhaps Marines only need to get to the bridge, which is incidentally the same space that the Warboss needs to go.
Because taking the bridge does nothing to prevent the orks in engineering from locking down controls to only be useable from engineering and setting the rok on a collision course to an imperial planet, or set their core to go critical in the midst of an imperial fleet and destroy it in a suicide run.
That doesn't sound like a very "fighty fighty krumpy krumpy" option for Orks.
Why would Orks want to *stop* the enemy from meeting them in glorious combat?
Gert wrote: An Astartes Captain will always have combat experience.
The only similarity is the rank name.
They have an identical rank name and an identical function too. The combat experience of a captain is used to command troops (and of course participate in the operation the lead). They are officers, not commandos. A captain is supposed to lead troops. That's their entire "raison d'être".
Gert wrote: An Astartes Captain will always have combat experience.
The only similarity is the rank name.
They have an identical rank name and an identical function too. The combat experience of a captain is used to command troops (and of course participate in the operation the lead). They are officers, not commandos. A captain is supposed to lead troops. That's their entire "raison d'être".
TangoTwoBravo wrote: Regarding officers, I am a senior officer but I would not expect to be the best shot nor the person that gets sent to engage the mightiest foe in single combat (although the troops might find that hilarious...). I would, however, expect a Space Marine Captain to do just that. I also expect a Space Marine Captain to be a veteran of many campaigns, having risen through the ranks. By the time the reach Captain or Master they have acumen beyond their equivalent rank/appointment in the Guard.
I'm not arguing against that at all. I'm arguing that the video game Space Marine makes a mockery of the lore of Space Marine (and logic) by having a captain go around a mission basically by his lonesome without leading a deployment of troops, basically doing what one of the 100 members of the 1st company or the unknown number of members of the 10th company would be doing, making this game's story and setting complete garbage.
Gert wrote: An Astartes Captain will always have combat experience.
The only similarity is the rank name.
They have an identical rank name and an identical function too. The combat experience of a captain is used to command troops (and of course participate in the operation the lead). They are officers, not commandos. A captain is supposed to lead troops. That's their entire "raison d'être".
In the real world, yes.
40k is not that.
Well why the hell are captains in 40K leading troops then? Why are they commanding a company worth of soldiers, just like our captains. Why does the game systems seems to want to make us believe these units are commanding officers (being both HQ and possessing command abilities). Yes, 40K respects that aspect of the real world. If you wanted a Space Marine champion with decades of experience and cool special gear, you have company champions just for that. You also have 1st company veterans just for that too. Hell you even have Honor Guards just for that. Why is suddenly everybody defending the concept of a captain (not any of the other previously mentioned) acting alone instead of leading troops?
I'd like to put forth that if we are to consider Space Marine as a true depiction of the capabilities of a Space Marine then I feel it is only fair that we extend the same courtesy to Fire Warrior in which a soldier of the literal lowest rank in the Tau military succeeds in killing countless guardsmen, space marines, chaos space marines, a Titan and a greater daemon on his first ever mission.
A Town Called Malus wrote: I'd like to put forth that if we are to consider Space Marine as a true depiction of the capabilities of a Space Marine then I feel it is only fair that we extend the same courtesy to Fire Warrior in which a soldier of the literal lowest rank in the Tau military succeeds in killing countless guardsmen, space marines, chaos space marines, a Titan and a greater daemon on his first ever mission.
I say that Mechanicus also be considered. Killing 4 necron lords, including a destroyer lord, and an overlord with 2 kastelan robots (highest difficulty, baby) should be canon.
A Town Called Malus wrote: I'd like to put forth that if we are to consider Space Marine as a true depiction of the capabilities of a Space Marine then I feel it is only fair that we extend the same courtesy to Fire Warrior in which a soldier of the literal lowest rank in the Tau military succeeds in killing countless guardsmen, space marines, chaos space marines, a Titan and a greater daemon on his first ever mission.
nobody is saying we should take Space Marines as 100% accurate canon, IT'S A VIDEO GAME, Video games always make some allowances for gameplay (no one for example is arguing that space marines regenarate their health by doing brutal kills of orks) except people who are, in a game of intellectual dishonesty, trying to confuse the issue of the point , which is that the video game presumably gives a pretty good visual of what the internals of a warhammer 40k forge world are likely like.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Indeed, but seeing as a tyranid ship is alive, it could potentially open the passages for the tyranid warrior and shrink them for the marines in order to trap the foreign intruder.
Maybe that's one of the reasons why Marines try to board Tyranid vessels when they're still somewhat dormant.
The whole thrust of this conversation though is finding some particular things that marines can't do. . . which, nobody is saying they can do everything. All they have to do is be capable enough beyond some threshold of important tasks, which they clearly are.
aand nobdy except Vat is saying "Marines do it best"
Somehow Im able to both deny the SM even the most basic mobility but at the same time pretend they are the best at everything... If Marines wrote at forums they would be just like me.
Gert wrote: An Astartes Captain will always have combat experience.
The only similarity is the rank name.
They have an identical rank name and an identical function too. The combat experience of a captain is used to command troops (and of course participate in the operation the lead). They are officers, not commandos. A captain is supposed to lead troops. That's their entire "raison d'être".
In the real world, yes.
40k is not that.
Yep, SM captains are also sort of the champion of their company... Which makes "some" sense if you think about SM as knights... Although its true that a SM captain should be mostly commanding his troops (and perhaps leading them from the front to show old marines are the most badass) rather than going arround doing missions alone.
Problem is the amount of desbelieve suspension that you need just for SM to do the most basic stuff.
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A Town Called Malus wrote: I'd like to put forth that if we are to consider Space Marine as a true depiction of the capabilities of a Space Marine then I feel it is only fair that we extend the same courtesy to Fire Warrior in which a soldier of the literal lowest rank in the Tau military succeeds in killing countless guardsmen, space marines, chaos space marines, a Titan and a greater daemon on his first ever mission.
If some one considered anything in that game as canon he is just naive beyond salvation
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW... Regarding Astartes mobility in side a space ship... I like the feelling of the Space Hulk game, were Terminators can indeed traverse the corridors, but in doing so they are not particularly nimble and thats why their enemies have a clear "home pitch advantaje".
Gert wrote: Did you listen to a single line of Leadros's dialogue where he consistently says Titus is disobeying and disregarding the Codex? There is literally a bloody meme for crying out loud.
Spoiler:
One of the reasons Titus is arrested is because of his constant violations of the Codex as well as handling a Chaos tainted device.
Go play the game again and come back with better arguments.
Precisely. How could a Space Marine rise to the rank of Captain if he can't follow protocol or doesn't even understand the basic role of an officer. Are they perfectly indoctrinated killing machines (and the captain being the best out of a hundred of them) or are they not? No matter how you spin it. You need huge leaps of logic and ignore the setting a lot for the requirements of a first person shooter. Had you been the sole survivor of a deathwatch commando trying to accomplish his mission, the entire thing would have been more plausible, but they wanted Ultramarines for the brand recognition.
Have you (and the same goes for some others in this thread) ever considered that 40k is an inherently illogical universe? The IOM is consistently portrayed as backwards and idiotic, half of the traitor legions spend more time shooting themselves in their collective foot than actually fighting, and, well, the Orks' entire culture raises more than a few questions. the Warhammer 40k universe is a science fantasy cultivated in a way which incentivizes its characters to do backwards and stupid things, since those backwards and stupid things are often the most fun parts about the setting.
As Gert mentioned previously, there are tons of examples of Space Marine captains operating solo and winning anyways. That's just how Space Marine captains are.
Well illogical and all... You can have more grounded descriptions of the 40K as in the classical Space Hulk game or you can double down on the absurdity and turn the Astartes into Looney Toon charecters.
epronovost wrote: The combat experience of a captain is used to command troops (and of course participate in the operation the lead). They are officers, not commandos. A captain is supposed to lead troops. That's their entire "raison d'être".
You are using real world logic. That is the problem here.
epronovost wrote:I'm arguing that the video game Space Marine makes a mockery of the lore of Space Marine (and logic) by having a captain go around a mission basically by his lonesome without leading a deployment of troops, basically doing what one of the 100 members of the 1st company or the unknown number of members of the 10th company would be doing, making this game's story and setting complete garbage.
Uriel Ventris would like a word.
Well why the hell are captains in 40K leading troops then? Why are they commanding a company worth of soldiers, just like our captains. Why does the game systems seems to want to make us believe these units are commanding officers (being both HQ and possessing command abilities). Yes, 40K respects that aspect of the real world. If you wanted a Space Marine champion with decades of experience and cool special gear, you have company champions just for that. You also have 1st company veterans just for that too. Hell you even have Honor Guards just for that. Why is suddenly everybody defending the concept of a captain (not any of the other previously mentioned) acting alone instead of leading troops?
Because Space Marine Captains do *both*. They command, and they are elite combatants as well. 40k is a setting where leaders most often lead from the front, and are oftentimes the strongest fighters of their forces.
I find it strange that you complain about something so completely ubiquitous in this setting. This is not real life. This is 40k. You can make that distinction, can't you?
A Town Called Malus wrote:I'd like to put forth that if we are to consider Space Marine as a true depiction of the capabilities of a Space Marine then I feel it is only fair that we extend the same courtesy to Fire Warrior in which a soldier of the literal lowest rank in the Tau military succeeds in killing countless guardsmen, space marines, chaos space marines, a Titan and a greater daemon on his first ever mission.
Oh, there's absolutely stuff that exists only for game purposes, and neither game should be taken as "true canon" - I'm simply saying that the whole "Space Marine does solo stuff is unrealistic!" is a stance which isn't supported by background material.
Vatsetis wrote:Somehow Im able to both deny the SM even the most basic mobility but at the same time pretend they are the best at everything...
You do the latter by being sarcastic and disingenuous with your points. You have a veritable diploma in slippery slope logic, and in strawman construction.
Instead of understanding the slightest bit of nuance, you flit between "Space Marines are the best at everything hahaha look how unreasonable that is!!" and "Space Marines are incapable of anything". Both are complete fabrications.
Problem is the amount of desbelieve suspension that you need just for SM to do the most basic stuff.
But your suspension of disbelief for walking fungus monsters, giant bipedal Titans, sentient murder robots, literal space daemons, and psychic powers is fine?
What parts of 40k *do * you actually enjoy? What parts *are* accepted in your suspension of disbelief? I'm curious.
Vatsetis wrote: You know that in any complex system tragedy and comedy can exist side by side... Or are you so naive that you cant understand such mixture??
I don't know - can you not understand it?
I ask again, as you refuse to put it in writing - what parts of 40k *are* rational to you? What parts *do* you like? What things *are* accepted in your suspension of disbelief? Psychic powers? Daemons? Power armour? Sentient walking fungi?
Make your points crystal clear, or risk them being lost.
Vatsetis wrote: Sure but funnily enough thats were oversized and overweight SM are ment to do their job... At least in a significant number of occasions.
Canonically, most of the battlespaces in 40K do not have corridors that are a significant impediment to Space Marines. Nor have I seen much evidence to the contrary.
Canonically, most of the battlespaces in 40K do not have corridors that are a significant impediment to Space Marines. Nor have I seen much evidence to the contrary.
See but because the VC used rat tunnels during the Vietnam War that means Space Marines can't use corridors. /s
Vatsetis wrote: Sure but funnily enough thats were oversized and overweight SM are ment to do their job... At least in a significant number of occasions.
Perhaps is some sort of comedy.
Space marines aren't huge though. Or overweight. Concerns about their height and weight are greatly exaggeraged. 7 to 7 and a half feet tall by pretty much every relevant source. As for weight, I'm pretty sure plenty horses and other animals weigh more and thr earth doesn't collapse beneath them.
Comedy's a thing in 40k, but orks are the funny gitz of the setting.
..
Vatsetis wrote: Sure but funnily enough thats were oversized and overweight SM are ment to do their job... At least in a significant number of occasions.
Canonically, most of the battlespaces in 40K do not have corridors that are a significant impediment to Space Marines. Nor have I seen much evidence to the contrary.
Well thats because if SM couldnt actually perform their tasks it will be absurd in a non functional level... so the setting sort of creates its own rules... call it the "Hollywood Logic"... like represented in the film "Last action Hero".
But you know, its sort of "funny" that the naval assault experts of the IOM are so huge and cumbersome (going to ignore weight in space conditions, altough it pretty obvious that 40K ship have gravity due to the art depictions).
Vatsetis wrote: Sure but funnily enough thats were oversized and overweight SM are ment to do their job... At least in a significant number of occasions.
Perhaps is some sort of comedy.
Space marines aren't huge though. Or overweight. Concerns about their height and weight are greatly exaggeraged. 7 to 7 and a half feet tall by pretty much every relevant source. As for weight, I'm pretty sure plenty horses and other animals weigh more and thr earth doesn't collapse beneath them.
Comedy's a thing in 40k, but orks are the funny gitz of the setting.
..
IMHO Astartes have grown so bloated and out of proportion that they have invaded the design space of almost all other factions... for instance Primaris are ment to be more "tacticool" and in a sense realistic than firstborn marines... but they have that very orky vibe of "bigger is better" and "put as many gun barrells on a chassis as possible... more dakka... more hits". Not my taste.
Vatsetis wrote:Well thats because if SM couldnt actually perform their tasks it will be absurd in a non functional level... so the setting sort of creates its own rules...
Wow! You finally realised what we've all been telling you, and that it was fruitless in the first place to be complaining how Space Marines don't follow conventional real world logic, because 40k doesn't follow the rules of the real world!
But you know, its sort of "funny" that the naval assault experts of the IOM are so huge and cumbersome (going to ignore weight in space conditions, altough it pretty obvious that 40K ship have gravity due to the art depictions).
Those same art depictions that show that Space Marines are easily capable of moving and navigating through ship interiors and corridors? But you can ignore the gravity?
Flipsiders wrote: As Gert mentioned previously, there are tons of examples of Space Marine captains operating solo and winning anyways. That's just how Space Marine captains are.
Have you ever considered that this is actually false. The only example he provided was Uriel Ventris leading a strike team on board of a Hive Ship to kill a Norn Queen and defeat the invasion of a planet. If we ignore the fact that according to the fluff about Norn Queens it would be the equivalent of a tactical squad destroying a Warlord Titan with bolters, that's still an officer leading a team. It's not a full size company, but at least it's still leading a group of soldier. Also, yes 40K fluff is often illogical, not because it needs to be, or because it wants to be. In some case, this is true like for how orks behave, how titans and close combat can be a thing, but even more often then that, it's illogical because the writing is absolutely terrible. Bad writers who don't know what they are doing, who don't know what they are saying, like Raven Guards hiding in plain sight because the author forgot that Space Marines can see in the dark or Uriel Ventris threatening death itself with a plasma grenade despite the fact a plasma grenade is standard equipment on every single eldar warriors, or killing a Norn Queen on board a hive ship with man portable weapons and explosives, or a hundred Space Marines of the Raven Guard fighting an open field battle against a Tyranid horde down to the captain armed with lightning claws dueling and defeating the Hive Tyrant on his own. These are all terrible writers who simply didn't thought about what they were writing for a single second, if it made sense either from a logical and realist point of view or from a in-universe perspective and in all those cases, its both it's ilogical and inconsistent storytelling that doesn't respect the rules of the 40k universe itself. 40K fluff is filled with bad writers. Taking what bad writers say for granted is how you turn a good universe with some of its own internal logic, but still consistent and turn it into a complete farce where flanderization runs rampant.
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Sgt_Smudge wrote: Because Space Marine Captains do *both*. They command, and they are elite combatants as well. 40k is a setting where leaders most often lead from the front, and are oftentimes the strongest fighters of their forces.
Indeed and will be doing BOTH not one or the other, but both. They are field officers, they will fight in front lines just like their troops do, often where the fight is the thickest and they will command and direct their troops while doing so. They will not leave their company under the command of some less experimented and less talented sergeant. At worst they might lead a strike team for an absolutely vital mission that will require the best of the best in their company to succeed, but they would not go solo do stuff unless the writer has placed them in a "sole survivor" or "cut off from your troops by accident" type of scenario.
I find it strange that you complain about something so completely ubiquitous in this setting. This is not real life. This is 40k. You can make that distinction, can't you?
indeed and a lonesome Warboss would be equally ridiculous, a lonesome Autarch going all commando would be absurd, a Imperial Guard senior officer leaving his regiment behind to go commando is dumb. It's especially dumb in a universe and in an organization that has plenty of people whose job it is to go in alone (or in very small group) to conduct special missions. If the company champion didn't exist it would make sense to call the captain the champion and of his company, but alas, the fluff says that the Company Champion is the the champion of the company because that's what those words means. That's why the Captain isn't the best psyker in the company either nor the most faithful and keeper of the tradition, nor the tech expert, nor a field medic. You can make this distinction correct? If you can accept this distinction why can't you seem to accept that for the poor Company Champion or the poor Scout Master? Why are these people, who exist in the fluff just as much as Librarians or Techmarines not get their specialty and job recognized? You know how to make the difference between stuff that make sense within a universe and just terrible writing about that universe do you? gak writing exist, you don't need to eat it and say yum-yum, that is so tasty.
epronovost wrote: I'm not arguing against that at all. I'm arguing that the video game Space Marine makes a mockery of the lore of Space Marine (and logic) by having a captain go around a mission basically by his lonesome without leading a deployment of troops, basically doing what one of the 100 members of the 1st company or the unknown number of members of the 10th company would be doing, making this game's story and setting complete garbage.
Personally, I find it hilarious that because I dared to present an image of an environment found Space Marine as an example of standard Imperial architecture, that you've decided to go on this huge rant about how much you hate the game. Hey in CoD: MW2 you can lie down in front of a tank in a ghillie suit in the mission set in Pripyat and not get spotted, does that mean Pripyat doesn't exist?
Well why the hell are captains in 40K leading troops then? Why are they commanding a company worth of soldiers, just like our captains.
Having the same rank name doesn't mean they do the same thing. A captain of a naval vessel doesn't lead a company of troops so obviously they aren't real captains. Captain America often acts alone or leads a small elite team rather than a company but he obviously isn't a real captain either. What about a Army/Navy lawyer who also holds the rank of captain, they aren't leading troops into battle so they must not be real captains. Hell, what about the various Khans, Wolf Lords, Marshalls, and Commanders of other Chapters that don't follow Codex specific language, they can't be real captains either.
Why does the game systems seems to want to make us believe these units are commanding officers (being both HQ and possessing command abilities). Yes, 40K respects that aspect of the real world. If you wanted a Space Marine champion with decades of experience and cool special gear, you have company champions just for that. You also have 1st company veterans just for that too. Hell you even have Honor Guards just for that.
Have you considered that captain is an honorific as well as a rank and that being a captain doesn't mean you must lead troops into battle at all times and can instead delegate command to a senior Sergeant (who BTW is still going to have decades if not longer of combat experience) if a more vital mission presents itself, such as securing a weapon that has the potential to win a war with one shot?
Why is suddenly everybody defending the concept of a captain (not any of the other previously mentioned) acting alone instead of leading troops?
Until the situation with the Inquisitor shows up, Titus's goal is to link up with the rest of the 2nd Company and save Manufactorum Ajakis as well as a Warlord Titan. Only when a specific opportunity presents itself does Titus put the initial mission on standby to try and secure a weapon he is led to believe will win the war for Graia. That's when Titus, Sidonus, and Leandros leave for their own side quest. The 2nd Company is all still there fighting around Ajakis to secure it for reinforcements, then Chaos shenanigans happen and the Blood Ravens show up.
epronovost wrote: The only example he provided was Uriel Ventris leading a strike team on board of a Hive Ship to kill a Norn Queen and defeat the invasion of a planet.
You want some more?
Kayavan Shrike leads his command squad to eliminate a Chaos device that will cause immense destruction and to kill the Alpha Legion Daemon Prince, Kernax Voldorius, while the rest of his Company and that of Korsarro Khan's take on the bulk of the Alpha Legion and their cultist allies forces.
Watch Captain Artemis leads a Kill Team in an attempt to neutralise an Ork Warboss and stop a Waaaaagh! in it's tracks before it reaches a vital Imperial port.
Captain Daerys Arrun of the Silver Skulls leads a strike team in an attempt to kill Huron Blackheart while the rest of his Company secures a Refinery.
Aethon Shaan of the Raven Guard leads a specialised team to capture the renegade Ardaric Vaanes.
If we ignore the fact that according to the fluff about Norn Queens it would be the equivalent of a tactical squad destroying a Warlord Titan with bolters, that's still an officer leading a team.
I'm sure the Chapter that specialises in killing Xenos armed with a neurotoxin designed to kill Synapse creatures is in no way going to be effective against the Xenos Synapse creature. No way at aaaaaaall.
Indeed and will be doing BOTH not one or the other, but both. They are field officers, they will fight in front lines just like their troops do, often where the fight is the thickest and they will command and direct their troops while doing so. They will not leave their company under the command of some less experimented and less talented sergeant. At worst they might lead a strike team for an absolutely vital mission that will require the best of the best in their company to succeed, but they would not go solo do stuff unless the writer has placed them in a "sole survivor" or "cut off from your troops by accident" type of scenario.
The story of Space Marine is both of those things. It's not representative of general operations and nobody is pretending it is. You just have a rage on for hating the game.
Flipsiders wrote: As Gert mentioned previously, there are tons of examples of Space Marine captains operating solo and winning anyways. That's just how Space Marine captains are.
Have you ever considered that this is actually false.
I mean, is it false? Plenty of canon sources cite this as truth.
The only example he provided was Uriel Ventris leading a strike team on board of a Hive Ship to kill a Norn Queen and defeat the invasion of a planet.
I also cited Sicarius doing similar in Knights of Macragge, and Ventris doing this repeatedly in multiple of his novels.
If we ignore the fact that according to the fluff about Norn Queens it would be the equivalent of a tactical squad destroying a Warlord Titan with bolters, that's still an officer leading a team.
And Titus was leading a team. The team just happened to be split up across the surface of Graia. What he was doing was hardly inconsistent with what we have often been shown Space Marine Captains doing.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Because Space Marine Captains do *both*. They command, and they are elite combatants as well. 40k is a setting where leaders most often lead from the front, and are oftentimes the strongest fighters of their forces.
Indeed and will be doing BOTH not one or the other, but both. They are field officers, they will fight in front lines just like their troops do, often where the fight is the thickest and they will command and direct their troops while doing so. They will not leave their company under the command of some less experimented and less talented sergeant. At worst they might lead a strike team for an absolutely vital mission that will require the best of the best in their company to succeed, but they would not go solo do stuff unless the writer has placed them in a "sole survivor" or "cut off from your troops by accident" type of scenario.
But that's exactly what Uriel Ventris *did* on Tarsis Ultra - left his company to do a mission with some Deathwatch which he wasn't the commander of, and left his sergeant to command his troops on the field.
Everything you complain about Titus doing, Ventris already did. You can say that what Ventris did was stupid, but you can't say that it's inconsistent. Also, Space Marine also *is* an example of the "cut off from your troops" trope at the start of the game - you're explicitly separated after the assault on the Kill Kroozer.
I find it strange that you complain about something so completely ubiquitous in this setting. This is not real life. This is 40k. You can make that distinction, can't you?
a Imperial Guard senior officer leaving his regiment behind to go commando is dumb.
Gaunt's Ghosts, anyone? There's plenty of times where senior staff of the Tanith 1st go on solo missions or otherwise in tiny kill teams to go fight the enemy.
Gaunt does this all the time, and he's a Colonel-Commissar.
It's especially dumb in a universe and in an organization that has plenty of people whose job it is to go in alone (or in very small group) to conduct special missions.
Except this is universe which has established that their leaders often lead these small group incursions, no matter their rank or strategic importance.
This is common in 40k.
If the company champion didn't exist it would make sense to call the captain the champion and of his company, but alas, the fluff says that the Company Champion is the the champion of the company because that's what those words means.
So why is Captain Sicarius the Knight Champion of Macragge, when he has both a Company Champion, and a Chapter Champion? Why does Calgar go toe to toe with an Avatar when that should be the Chapter Champion's job? Why do Space Marine Captains even carry their sacred relic weapons, when they would be more useful on these company champions who seemingly never show up?
The company champion exists when the Captain doesn't want to play protagonist. It's that simple.
That's why the Captain isn't the best psyker in the company either nor the most faithful and keeper of the tradition, nor the tech expert, nor a field medic.
In Chapters where those roles are shared, Captains absolutely *are* those. Examples being the Thousand Sons (whose Captains were nearly all masterful psykers) and Word Bearers (whose Captains were also Chaplain equivalents too).
You can make this distinction correct? If you can accept this distinction why can't you seem to accept that for the poor Company Champion or the poor Scout Master?
It's funny you bring in Scout Master, because Telion, a Marine so talented that he has been offered placement in the Honour Guard three times (to my recollection), often goes on solo missions and operations, despite being a high ranking officer within the Scout Company.
I don't accept that distinction, because GW don't. According to GW, Captains *do* act as champions and frontline heroes, because GW decided that that's how leaders act in 40k.
You know how to make the difference between stuff that make sense within a universe and just terrible writing about that universe do you? gak writing exist, you don't need to eat it and say yum-yum, that is so tasty.
And you well know that I'm happy to call out writing that negatively influences the world, and harms it. This ain't it.
I don't see the harm in Space Marine Captains acting more like mythological heroes where leadership means leading from the front and being an action hero - that's a *feature* of the setting to me, not a bug.
You say "makes sense in universe" - the universe we have been presented with indicates that Captains doing this *is* normal. Therefore, it makes sense in-universe. Honestly, if I saw a Space Marine Captain who refused to do any front-line work, I'd be more surprised about that than one who kept going to the front lines.
Personally, I find it hilarious that because I dared to present an image of an environment found Space Marine as an example of standard Imperial architecture, that you've decided to go on this huge rant about how much you hate the game. Hey in CoD: MW2 you can lie down in front of a tank in a ghillie suit in the mission set in Pripyat and not get spotted, does that mean Pripyat doesn't exist?
It does mean that CoD: MW2 isn't informative on how that specific war looked like on the terrain and in reality. It's just convenience. Trying to say well in that game it was possible so reality must be like that is rather stupid.
Having the same rank name doesn't mean they do the same thing. A captain of a naval vessel doesn't lead a company of troops so obviously they aren't real captains. Captain America often acts alone or leads a small elite team rather than a company but he obviously isn't a real captain either. What about a Army/Navy lawyer who also holds the rank of captain, they aren't leading troops into battle so they must not be real captains. Hell, what about the various Khans, Wolf Lords, Marshalls, and Commanders of other Chapters that don't follow Codex specific language, they can't be real captains either.
That's why I specifically referred to a US army captain in a combat unit, you know the equivalent of a Space Marine Captain. A US army captain in a combat unit is just like a Space Marine captain down to the number of people under their command.
Have you considered that captain is an honorific as well as a rank and that being a captain doesn't mean you must lead troops into battle at all times and can instead delegate command to a senior Sergeant (who BTW is still going to have decades if not longer of combat experience) if a more vital mission presents itself, such as securing a weapon that has the potential to win a war with one shot?
If the sergeant is just as good, he should do it. Or the Scout Master should do it, his the infiltration and stealth specialist after all, or the 1st company should form a strike squad to do it. A captain could lead a strike force or a small group in some occasion, but completely alone on purpose is absurd.
epronovost wrote: mand squad to eliminate a Chaos device that will cause immense destruction and to kill the Alpha Legion Daemon Prince, Kernax Voldorius, while the rest of his Company and that of Korsarro Khan's take on the bulk of the Alpha Legion and their cultist allies forces.
Watch Captain Artemis leads a Kill Team in an attempt to neutralise an Ork Warboss and stop a Waaaaagh! in it's tracks before it reaches a vital Imperial port.
Captain Daerys Arrun of the Silver Skulls leads a strike team in an attempt to kill Huron Blackheart while the rest of his Company secures a Refinery.
Aethon Shaan of the Raven Guard leads a specialised team to capture the renegade Ardaric Vaanes.
Congratulation, your examples of Captains fighting alone all include the word teams and all include the characters commanding troops during most of the book, but accomplishing specific objectives within a battle with a team. Also one of your example is a member of the Deathwatch which all operates as commandos for the Inquisition.
I'm sure the Chapter that specialises in killing Xenos armed with a neurotoxin designed to kill Synapse creatures is in no way going to be effective against the Xenos Synapse creature. No way at aaaaaaall.
Of course it makes no sense at all. How are you going to apply that toxin through the mountains of armored chitin as hard as a titan's armor, the psychic shield and its mind melting psychic powers? Having poison to kill it is fine, applying it with the means of a few Space Marines is absurd. They are not carrying a six meters long "power needle" nor a battery of armor piercing missiles designed to pierce the armor and shields of overlord titans to deliver a deadly payload of poison. Could a grenade kill the pilot of a Titan? Absolutely. Does that mean you have a way to deliver that grenade inside the cockpit where it would be deadly? Absolutely not.
epronovost wrote:That's why I specifically referred to a US army captain in a combat unit, you know the equivalent of a Space Marine Captain. A US army captain in a combat unit is just like a Space Marine captain down to the number of people under their command.
Up until the point when the US Army Captain isn't 7 foot tall genetically engineered freak, with walking tank armour, a relic sword and shield, and lives in a fictional universe where single combat and melee are considered smart tactical manoeuvres.
40k isn't reality. Why are we applying real life logic to this? What does applying real life logic *do* for the setting? In what way would this better 40k?
epronovost wrote:That's why I specifically referred to a US army captain in a combat unit, you know the equivalent of a Space Marine Captain. A US army captain in a combat unit is just like a Space Marine captain down to the number of people under their command.
Up until the point when the US Army Captain isn't 7 foot tall genetically engineered freak, with walking tank armour, a relic sword and shield, and lives in a fictional universe where single combat and melee are considered smart tactical manoeuvres.
40k isn't reality. Why are we applying real life logic to this? What does applying real life logic *do* for the setting? In what way would this better 40k?
It does follow this concept of reality. In real life, in a combat unit, a captain leads around 60 to 200 people. The same is true for Space Marine Captain. Both have the same battlefield role. They are both field officers. They both command troops in combat zones and participate in the combat in question. Sure, they look different don't have the same weapons and don't use the same tactics, neither do the US army captains of WW1 and those of today even if their job, ranks, function, number of men under their command is the same as it was. The truth is that in both our universe and 40K universe captains do the jobs of captains. Just like in our universe humans poo and in 40K universe humans also poo.
epronovost wrote:That's why I specifically referred to a US army captain in a combat unit, you know the equivalent of a Space Marine Captain. A US army captain in a combat unit is just like a Space Marine captain down to the number of people under their command.
Up until the point when the US Army Captain isn't 7 foot tall genetically engineered freak, with walking tank armour, a relic sword and shield, and lives in a fictional universe where single combat and melee are considered smart tactical manoeuvres.
40k isn't reality. Why are we applying real life logic to this? What does applying real life logic *do* for the setting? In what way would this better 40k?
It does follow this concept of reality. In real life, in a combat unit, a captain leads around 60 to 200 people. The same is true for Space Marine Captain. Both have the same battlefield role. They are both field officers. They both command troops in combat zones and participate in the combat in question.
I'm sorry, but that's not enough to claim that they should function exactly the same, because that misses the crucial details that Space Marines are not human, and that 40k does not function like the real world.
Sure, they look different don't have the same weapons and don't use the same tactics, neither do the US army captains of WW1 and those of today even if their job, ranks, function, number of men under their command is the same as it was. The truth is that in both our universe and 40K universe captains do the jobs of captains.
Except that you note that they have different tactics - tactics which include "going solo to beat the enemy leader in single combat because I'm a badass".
40k is not reality. GW have made it very clear that their Captains are not like real life captains.
Just like in our universe humans poo and in 40K universe humans also poo.
Because we have been shown no evidence to suggest otherwise. However, the same cannot be said for Captains, who are regularly shown to go off and perform solo feats of daring and might.
Again - that's just how 40k is, and I don't see what's problematic about that.
epronovost wrote: It does mean that CoD: MW2 isn't informative on how that specific war looked like on the terrain and in reality. It's just convenience. Trying to say well in that game it was possible so reality must be like that is rather stupid.
Pripyat is in Ukraine, it's where the Chernobyl plant was. The point I'm making here is that by your bad logic because one section of the game doesn't conform to reality (in SM's case it's background), none of it does. Which is an absurd stance to take.
That's why I specifically referred to a US army captain in a combat unit, you know the equivalent of a Space Marine Captain. A US army captain in a combat unit is just like a Space Marine captain down to the number of people under their command.
An equivalent to a US Army captain would be an Astra Militarum captain because the organisations are far more similar.
The equivalent of a SM Captain would be a feudal Lord but with genetic enhancements, Power Armour and future weapons.
If the sergeant is just as good, he should do it. Or the Scout Master should do it, his the infiltration and stealth specialist after all, or the 1st company should form a strike squad to do it. A captain could lead a strike force or a small group in some occasion, but completely alone on purpose is absurd.
Where did I say all SM Captains operate alone all the time? You had false conceptions of Space Marine and I corrected you.
And just to argue your point, not all strike forces can call upon Scout or Veteran support. And have you ever heard of the phrase "If you want something done, do it yourself"? A Captain could trust a Sergeant to command the Company for a short absence but not necessarily for a vital/time-sensitive/extremely dangerous mission. The only difference in the duties of the Sergeant at that point would be "keep doing what you're doing but you get to tell more people what to do". If that Captain dies, that Sergeant would continue to lead the Company until a new Captain was selected. Being a senior Sergeant doesn't entitle you to the Captaincy, just like being 1st Captain doesn't mean you'll be the next Chapter Master.
epronovost wrote: Congratulation, your examples of Captains fighting alone all include the word teams and all include the characters commanding troops during most of the book, but accomplishing specific objectives within a battle with a team. Also one of your example is a member of the Deathwatch which all operates as commandos for the Inquisition.
I never argued Captains would fight alone. The Deathwatch example was to prove that Captains can operate without commanding their entire Company. The Deathwatch has Watch Companies which Artemis commands one of.
Of course it makes no sense at all. How are you going to apply that toxin through the mountains of armored chitin as hard as a titan's armor, the psychic shield and its mind melting power. Having poison to kill it is fine, applying it with the means of a few Space Marines is absurd. Could a grenade kill the pilot of a Titan, absolutely, does that mean you have a way to deliver that grenade absolutely not.
With the weapons that are designed to kill Xenos, you know the Specialist Ammunition weapons with shells that melt flesh, penetrate armour and set fire to their innards. Of course all of these Astartes are also not only Veterans of their Chapter but also receive additional training and conditioning to make them even more effective against Xenos. Deathwatch Astartes are put in a torture device that forces them to live out the deaths of other Astartes at the hands of Xenos to increase their hatred and Xenophobia to a point where utter annihilation is the only thing they consider. And Titans, especially the larger ones, are known to be vulnerable to commando raids. If you get inside the leg and plant some bombs, that Titan is scunnered for days until repairs can be made.
With the weapons that are designed to kill Xenos, you know the Specialist Ammunition weapons with shells that melt flesh, penetrate armour and set fire to their innards. Of course all of these Astartes are also not only Veterans of their Chapter but also receive additional training and conditioning to make them even more effective against Xenos. Deathwatch Astartes are put in a torture device that forces them to live out the deaths of other Astartes at the hands of Xenos to increase their hatred and Xenophobia to a point where utter annihilation is the only thing they consider. And Titans, especially the larger ones, are known to be vulnerable to commando raids. If you get inside the leg and plant some bombs, that Titan is scunnered for days until repairs can be made.
And those munitions aren't capable killing outright freakin' carnifex, it takes a couple of volleys, yet I'm to believe it can injure a creature with a chitin the thickness of an entire carnifex itself (maybe more) and a powerful psychic shield that can repel titan strength weaponry? Yeah, a heavy machinegun can do that...sure...that's not terrible mind melting stupidity.
Titans are vulnerable to some infantry raids because they are a vehicles. A person can get inside of them. Norn Queen and other bio-titans are monsters. You can't get inside them (or if you are congratulation you have been eaten). No matter how much they hate them, a handful of Space Marines can't kill tyranid bio-titans by their lonesome. They need other titans or superweapons of epic proportions or an entire army of them, especially not the single most powerful Tyranid organism.
Do you actually know what a Norn-Queen is? It's a giant reproductive organism. It doesn't have psychic powers or weapons of any kind. They don't leave the Bioships.
What you are describing is a Heirophant Bio-Titan.
Gert wrote: Do you actually know what a Norn-Queen is? It's a giant reproductive organism. It doesn't have psychic powers or weapons of any kind. They don't leave the Bioships.
What you are describing is a Heirophant Bio-Titan.
Norn Queen are a reproductive organism that lives in symbiosis an inside a Dominatrix, the largest and most powerful bio-titans of the tyranids, a monster that exceeds in power and strength Heirophants by quite a margin. Turns out that the Hive Mind, which is the collective consciousness of all Norn Queens, isn't dumb to the point of not considering its most important organism worthy of the best protection and defense available.
Seriously, most of Uriel Ventris books could be described as "my OC Space Marine Captains defeats the strongest dudes in every faction". It's basically professionally published bad fanfiction level of writing. It's filled with idiocies like that or the "I scared death with a weapon carried by Eldar militia".
Vatsetis wrote: Sure but funnily enough thats were oversized and overweight SM are ment to do their job... At least in a significant number of occasions.
Canonically, most of the battlespaces in 40K do not have corridors that are a significant impediment to Space Marines. Nor have I seen much evidence to the contrary.
Well thats because if SM couldnt actually perform their tasks it will be absurd in a non functional level... so the setting sort of creates its own rules... call it the "Hollywood Logic"...
It's just straight up logic that an Imperial ship requires passages large enough to fit members of the mechanicum with extra arms, heavy armor and big hats. It also makes sense that the same corridors are large enough to fit Terminator Armor, since Terminator Armor is actually derived from protective armor for plasma core maintenence. It also makes sense that many ship corridors be large enough to move various sizes of equipment through them.
Yes, as Space Marines get larger in size, it becomes less and less plausible. I'm not expecting Centurions to get to the same places a Mk7 Firstborn can. But they don't have to. And always there are still Scouts, which are basically just big dudes.
Norn Queen are a reproductive organism that lives in symbiosis an inside a Dominatrix, the largest and most powerful bio-titans of the tyranids, a monster that exceeds in power and strength Heirophants by quite a margin. Turns out that the Hive Mind, which is the collective consciousness of all Norn Queens, isn't dumb to the point of not considering its most important organism worthy of the best protection and defense available.
Norn Queens are part of a Hive Ship and are the production point for most Tyranid organisms. They don't go near the battlefield. The Imperium has encountered exactly one Norn Queen throughout all the Tyrannic Wars and it was the one that Ventris and the Deathwatch killed. Which only made things worse in the long run because for every Norn Queen that dies more grow on other Hive Ships, its called the Hydra Effect.
epronovost wrote: mean that CoD: MW2 isn't informative on how that specific war looked like on the terrain and in reality. It's just convenience.
Modern Warfare 2 is possibly the biggest modern example of falsified history. He’s might be fething with you. If someone says MW2 I’m definitely never taking anything they say seriously. And very much to the point, Pripyat in the game is definitely not going to be a 1:1 recreation of Pripyat irl.
In space Marine almost every ceiling is going to be at least two feet taller than the main character. It’s a third person game, that’s where the POV is. If they do use a lower ceiling, it’s for a specific section of the game where the challenge is not being able to see past the guy. Everything in that game is design driven, you’ve been right since a page ago.
I think there’s another level. Even using a captain at all is because of the TT design. Marines are really good at killing in the setting. However for 23 years the basic marine hasn’t been able to even scratch the armor save of a single enemy model in most games they were in. Ridiculously, the basic marine was a background chump and the only model who could do anything impressive is a close combat HQ character. That’s it, that’s the reason a captain with one or two buddies star in the space marine vidya game and in the space wolf mobile game. Otherwise the main character could easily have been a vet or troop like Kais was. it might even have been more of a shooter.
The Modern Warfare series isn't falsified history it's alt history. The point I was trying to make was the despite certain aspects of the game not pertaining to reality the locations were fairly accurate, which is what I was trying to present with images from Space Marine. It doesn't matter if Titus can take on a million Orks and CSM because the environments the game takes place in are accurate to the background of 40k.
Curvaceous wrote: Everything in the 40k video games including the architecture has a glaring game design cause and a flimsy in-universe explanation to paper it over. Just like the romantic oil paintings and the bayeux tapestry, it’s not even meant to be anatomically or architecturally accurate.
What's to stop the same being said of *all* 40k media? Such as Space Marines being able to move through buildings unhindered - another in-universe explanation to allow Space Marines to do what they do. Is that just another "flimsy" explanation?
At which point, what *is* accurate to what 40k is meant to be?
I'm not saying the games are canon, but what I am asking is what reason have we to believe that the architecture presented in that game isn't accurate to the rest of 40k? After all, the whole thing is a fictional universe, with flimsy in-universe explanations - but if those explanations are all we're given, and they contribute positively to the setting overall, why should they not be considered truthful in setting?
You can rely on the sourcebooks: chapter approved articles and background sections. There are two reasons. One, they aren’t encumbered by things like needing space for the point of view or video game “camera,” having to make shooting galleries and other fun sequences, and for the odd circumstance of having one or two characters instead of two or more squads.
Second and more importantly, they’re the source. The reason the vidya was made and the reasons people buy it are the concepts from the source material.
And sometimes it’s like watching a 110 minute movie. It doesn’t tell you everything, doesn’t tell you the cellular biology of the gremlins from gremlins, so while that likely exists in-universe you’ll never find out what it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But like we know the ceilings need to be high for the game camera and the gameplay. What’s the equivalent that for the 2019 updated chaos codex, or widdle Jes Goodwin sitting next to all that taped-together a4?
In space marine the vidya they had to make arches 9+ feet high cause it’s a video game and had to make the captain fight by himself because it’s a video game
In a source book, they don’t have technical constraints and they also don’t have a plot to compromise for the way a novel does. The source books say a marine is about the same height as a mass produced pre-hung interior door in 2021. And it’s just words on paper with no rules of literature to really effect it/
Also space marine is a derivative work based on the source material and the source material is just itself. To some extent the current codexes are merchandising that’s derivative of the ‘90s sources but they are largely reprinting and paraphrasing those older ones so that’s often ok.
Gert wrote: Do you actually know what a Norn-Queen is? It's a giant reproductive organism. It doesn't have psychic powers or weapons of any kind. They don't leave the Bioships.
What you are describing is a Heirophant Bio-Titan.
Norn Queen are a reproductive organism that lives in symbiosis an inside a Dominatrix, the largest and most powerful bio-titans of the tyranids, a monster that exceeds in power and strength Heirophants by quite a margin. Turns out that the Hive Mind, which is the collective consciousness of all Norn Queens, isn't dumb to the point of not considering its most important organism worthy of the best protection and defense available.
Seriously, most of Uriel Ventris books could be described as "my OC Space Marine Captains defeats the strongest dudes in every faction". It's basically professionally published bad fanfiction level of writing. It's filled with idiocies like that or the "I scared death with a weapon carried by Eldar militia".
Since you believe that the reason why stories such as the Uriel books you mention are the result of bad writing tainting a good setting, could you give us some examples of stories which contain lore-accurate depictions of a Space Marine raids? I'm not too up-to-date on my Black Library, but I am a proud owner of the 8E Chaos codex, which includes descriptions of battles such as "an Imperial Knight army vs. shipful of Robot Dragons" and "That one time the Alpha Legion stole a planet."
Norn Queen are a reproductive organism that lives in symbiosis an inside a Dominatrix, the largest and most powerful bio-titans of the tyranids, a monster that exceeds in power and strength Heirophants by quite a margin. Turns out that the Hive Mind, which is the collective consciousness of all Norn Queens, isn't dumb to the point of not considering its most important organism worthy of the best protection and defense available.
The creature riding a Dominatrix isn't a norn queen. I know one of the wikis says it is, but they have not cited a source for that information, so who knows where they got it from. I've done a fair bit of looking through old books, and haven't turned up anything in support of it being one. Rather books like Hive War describe the rider as being a form of tyranid 'as far advanced beyond ordinary Tyranid Warriors as Tyranid Warriors are beyond the genetically constructed sphincter portals of the bio-ships'.
The actual bits of fluff about norn queens in Advanced Space Crusade and Warriors of Ultramar describe them as being immense several hundred meter tall creatures, wired into a giant room within a hive ship. A dominatrix is big, but it ain't big enough to contain something that size.
If I remember correctly the SM in advanced space crusade infiltrating the tyranid mother ship were indeed scouts.
Also that a MKvii can fit an standard house dosent mean that he is able to fight inside one with any level of comfort.
I could trasverse the inner dome of the Vatican Saint Peter Church... But I would be completelly screwed if forced to fight a more nimble foe in such a crumbled space.
Vatsetis wrote: Given that 99% of a SM Chapter Firepower is in their space Fleet (crewed mainly by chapter serfs and servitors) and that 99% of the IOM firepower is not in the hands of the Adeptus Astartes... and given that the IOM has no moral restictions on ussing indiscriminate firepower even against its own population... wouldnt the typical Astartes mission look pretty much like this?
No surprise a high number of Space Marines turn traitors since the IOM way of fighting war denies the porpouse of their very existence... it must be hugely frustrating to sacrifice your own humanity and decades of constant training to achieve a level of perfection that has no practical use.
Why does the 40K setting do so much to undermine the military significance of the poster boy faction?
lol please don't compare space marines to the past two decades of utter failure in military doctrine....it's insulting to 40k
Vatsetis wrote: If I remember correctly the SM in advanced space crusade infiltrating the tyranid mother ship were indeed scouts.
Scouts, Marines and Terminators.
Also that a MKvii can fit an standard house dosent mean that he is able to fight inside one with any level of comfort.
"If you want comfort, son, the Marines is not for you!"
I could trasverse the inner dome of the Vatican Saint Peter Church... But I would be completelly screwed if forced to fight a more nimble foe in such a crumbled space.
If you have nigh-impervious armor and a big gun, who gives a #$*&?. If you could kill someone by stomping on them . . . You keep going on about how heavy Marines are, just use it as a weapon. A Terminator doesn't have to "fight" a human, it could fall on an opponent and kill them. A Marine could just trample his immediate opponent, and said opponent couldn't dodge because they're stuck in the same tunnel the Marine is.
Marines are good at boarding vessels partly because they're the biggest thing in every hallway.
Curvaceous wrote:You can rely on the sourcebooks: chapter approved articles and background sections.
The sourcebooks which feature artwork that has Space Marines fighting in massive cavernous halls and cathedral complexes?
There are two reasons. One, they aren’t encumbered by things like needing space for the point of view or video game “camera,” having to make shooting galleries and other fun sequences, and for the odd circumstance of having one or two characters instead of two or more squads.
But the games *are* required to create a setting where Space Marines can feasibly run around in a variety of environments, including the bowels of a starship or forge complex. The same "this only exists so that the player can go there!" mentality could just as easily be applied to the tabletop. After all, do you think GW would create a Zone Mortalis set with doors that Space Marines couldn't go through, but guardsmen could?
Second and more importantly, they’re the source. The reason the vidya was made and the reasons people buy it are the concepts from the source material.
Absolutely - but the artwork from those other sources also supports these giant cavernous chambers and archways.
But like we know the ceilings need to be high for the game camera and the gameplay. What’s the equivalent that for the 2019 updated chaos codex, or widdle Jes Goodwin sitting next to all that taped-together a4?
Zone Mortalis, in fact! The corridors need to be wide enough to allow Space Marines to move through them, or else Space Marines can't play in Zone Mortalis battlefields.
As much as you can claim that "things are only big so that the player can see", I can counterclaim that "things are only large enough in the art and tabletop so that Space Marines can fit in there". The thing is, I consider that to be fine, and acceptable as canon for the world. It works because it works.
Basically, which Space Marine is not fully 100% canon, and anything in it *could* be questionable (for example, picking up Astartes grade weaponry just lying around before a boss fight), we can cross-reference anything with other depictions of things in the rest of the setting and compare them - and Space Marine's architecture holds up well.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The same "this only exists so that the player can go there!" mentality could just as easily be applied to the tabletop. After all, do you think GW would create a Zone Mortalis set with doors that Space Marines couldn't go through, but guardsmen could?
I mean, that actually sounds like a great idea which would introduce really cool tactical possibilities and challenges.
You're trying to get from A to B. There's a route that goes direct but is small, which means that your bigger, stronger stuff can't go through it, and another route that is longer but more open.
Do you split your forces and send your weaker elements (scouts, in the space marine example) down the quicker route, hoping they can hold against whatever they find until the heavier hitters can get there? Or do you stick together and hope your combined force can retake it from the enemy if they beat you to the objective?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: The same "this only exists so that the player can go there!" mentality could just as easily be applied to the tabletop. After all, do you think GW would create a Zone Mortalis set with doors that Space Marines couldn't go through, but guardsmen could?
I mean, that actually sounds like a great idea which would introduce really cool tactical possibilities and challenges.
You're trying to get from A to B. There's a route that goes direct but is small, which means that your bigger, stronger stuff can't go through it, and another route that is longer but more open.
Do you split your forces and send your weaker elements (scouts, in the space marine example) down the quicker route, hoping they can hold against whatever they find until the heavier hitters can get there? Or do you stick together and hope your combined force can retake it from the enemy if they beat you to the objective?
There *is* an element of this in Zone Mortalis, to be fair! Certain passageways are too small for Terminators/40mm based models, and all but the wider passageways are restrictive to larger things like Dreadnoughts, which are the largest vehicles (or oftentimes only!) you'll really see in ZM. You definitely do end up with this aspect when you have to consider your routes and what troops can actually pass through - and also an aspect of punching your way through passageways (using lascutters and chainfists to carve through locked doors)!
Vatsetis wrote: You know that in any complex system tragedy and comedy can exist side by side... Or are you so naive that you cant understand such mixture??
I don't know - can you not understand it?
I ask again, as you refuse to put it in writing - what parts of 40k *are* rational to you? What parts *do* you like? What things *are* accepted in your suspension of disbelief? Psychic powers? Daemons? Power armour? Sentient walking fungi?
Make your points crystal clear, or risk them being lost.
I like the background given in the "Space Hulk" game and how it translates into a masterful asymetric tactical experienxe in which the Astartes have a firepower advantage but suffer greatly doe to their limited movement options compared to the OPFOR.
Vatsetis wrote: You know that in any complex system tragedy and comedy can exist side by side... Or are you so naive that you cant understand such mixture??
I don't know - can you not understand it?
I ask again, as you refuse to put it in writing - what parts of 40k *are* rational to you? What parts *do* you like? What things *are* accepted in your suspension of disbelief? Psychic powers? Daemons? Power armour? Sentient walking fungi?
Make your points crystal clear, or risk them being lost.
I like the background given in the "Space Hulk" game and how it translates into a masterful asymetric tactical experienxe in which the Astartes have a firepower advantage but suffer greatly doe to their limited movement options compared to the OPFOR.
What? That doesn't answer my question about your stance on suspension of disbelief in 40k?
Allow me to repeat my comment: "what parts of 40k *are* rational to you? What parts *do* you like? What things *are* accepted in your suspension of disbelief? Psychic powers? Daemons? Power armour? Sentient walking fungi?"
Vatsetis wrote: I gave a relevant example of what "I Like" in the 40k setting.
You answered the least committal aspect of the question I asked, and the part which just so happens to avoid answering anything relevant about the topic that you raised.
Why don't you answer the rest?
Im not going to answer anything else of a question that is obviously framed with bad faith and hostility.
Asking for you to commit to an answer and standard of fictional disbelief is bad faith?
Suspension of desbelief has really not much to do with abstract concepts such as "demons" or "fungi orks" and much more to do with how those concepts are portrayed and executed.
Astartes could be something acceptable as a basic concept, but they have became so bloated and turned into the "swiss knife without any weakness" of the setting so much that they have became silly.
For instance, its a silly contradiction that Astartes are simultaneously the most diverse and one of the smallest organisations in the IOM.
That you're certainly being dishonest, and obscuring your position on the topic that you brought up.
Suspension of desbelief has really not much to do with abstract concepts such as "demons" or "fungi orks" and much more to do with how those concepts are portrayed and executed.
No, it absolutely *does* have everything to do with the suspension of disbelief. Daemons, Titans, and sentient walking fungi are things which completely require the suspension of disbelief to accept as part of the fictional setting.
My question is why these are things that you can accept, but Space Marines being functional and effective is not - if you *do* even recognise daemons and orks as part of your disbelief.
I want to know what your standards are, so that I can pin down exactly what you consider to be part of 40k, what expectations you hold, and how much of 40k you actually pay attention to, so that we can actually *have* a good faith discussion.
Astartes could be something acceptable as a basic concept, but they have became so bloated and turned into the "swiss knife without any weakness" of the setting so much that they have became silly.
They very clearly *have* weaknesses. However, such weaknesses are not "lol they can't do anything and they only exist as a relic of a bygone era".
*Actual* Astartes weaknesses would be:
- Their small numbers, in that they cannot be everywhere, or operate on the scale they used to in the Heresy. There are still enough Astartes to make a difference across the Imperium's battlefields, but they are still small in number. As a result, they cannot garrison worlds, for example.
- Their pride and isolationism. Space Marines aren't exactly best known as team players, and their own personal traditions and codes can often brush against other Imperium organisations.
- Their own cults and traditions, and genetic heritages. Many Chapters have rituals and beliefs that would horrify the Ecclesiarchy, and many other Chapters have ways of waging war or genetic defects that cripple them on a tactical level. While these might be beneficial in some fights, others might be less favourable, and when not in combat, these could further affect Astartes forces, as well as their relationship with their allies.
For instance, its a silly contradiction that Astartes are simultaneously the most diverse and one of the smallest organisations in the IOM.
This is hardly contradictory, considering how Astartes are organised as decentralised Chapters who have been permitted to form their own cultures and fiefdoms. Unlike other more standardised organisations, Space Marines have the time and space to develop their own subcultures and methods of waging war. It is because of their smaller size and their separation across the Imperium that they have such diverse cultures and ideologies.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: This is hardly contradictory, considering how Astartes are organised as decentralised Chapters who have been permitted to form their own cultures and fiefdoms. Unlike other more standardised organisations, Space Marines have the time and space to develop their own subcultures and methods of waging war. It is because of their smaller size and their separation across the Imperium that they have such diverse cultures and ideologies.
So do Imperial Guard regiments, even if they come from the same homeworld they often have vastly different traditions and approaches. Every single thing you said about marines there also applies to the Guard.
Vatsetis wrote:Well we are talking about completelly different topics...
... you brought this up?! You're the one who brought up this idea of the fusion between tragedy and comedy in the setting, and therefore the interplay of playing the setting straight and fantastical.
You literally said:
Vatsetis wrote:Problem is the amount of desbelieve suspension that you need just for SM to do the most basic stuff.
So I suppose we must "agree in that we disagree", shake hands and move into another topic.
And if your other topic is similarly vague, inflammatory, and couched in obscuring your stance on the topic, I'll say exactly the same things I did here.
I certainly have nothing else of relevance to add about the issue at hand.
Evidently, as you still seem unable to answer a fairly basic question.
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: This is hardly contradictory, considering how Astartes are organised as decentralised Chapters who have been permitted to form their own cultures and fiefdoms. Unlike other more standardised organisations, Space Marines have the time and space to develop their own subcultures and methods of waging war. It is because of their smaller size and their separation across the Imperium that they have such diverse cultures and ideologies.
So do Imperial Guard regiments. Every single thing you said about marines there also applies to the Guard.
This is true! However, Imperial Guard regiments are very often standardised, and due to human mortality, and being more directly commanded by the Administratum and other organisations, they have less opportunities to develop their own regimental cultures and identities beyond their homeworld ancestry.
Again, don't get me wrong, *most* factions in the Imperium would have quite a lot of their own cultural differences and identity (AdMech especially should be much more different than they are!), but Space Marines definitely have plenty of reason to be so unique, despite being so few in number. I don't mean this to be a "only Space Marines are so unique!", but rather as a "Space Marines totally have reasons to be unique, like every other Imperial vassal".
Sgt_Smudge wrote: This is hardly contradictory, considering how Astartes are organised as decentralised Chapters who have been permitted to form their own cultures and fiefdoms. Unlike other more standardised organisations, Space Marines have the time and space to develop their own subcultures and methods of waging war. It is because of their smaller size and their separation across the Imperium that they have such diverse cultures and ideologies.
So do Imperial Guard regiments, even if they come from the same homeworld they often have vastly different traditions and approaches. Every single thing you said about marines there also applies to the Guard.
To be fair, Guard regiments are vastly more diverse in the fluff, moreso than Astartes, but their rules options have been sadly pared down in line with "no models, no rules".
The 3.5/4th ed codex was the high point of Guard rules variation, and allowed for a massive variety in regimental culture and style of warfare. Alas, that is no more.
Reading the comments here it seems it turned into more of focussing on smal details and ignoring the bigger picture on both sides of the argument.
I dont see OP as a troll here but he do seem more defensive and ignoring some aspects he dont agree with (maybe just being tired of constant marine focus?), but same can also be said for some of those arguing against him.
On the original premise if most actions would be mass destruction weapons and not marines going in. Well that is actually true. But in those cases the marines are not called out, the bombardment etc are done by the guard/Navy etc. The Marines are called out as specialist when those solutions are not optimal for the mission. Optimally marines are only used for specialist missions, but sometimes they get caught in the open (Rynn's World) or resources are lacking so they need to be used in a sub-optimal way. Also due to it being a game and the game is about balanced forces (Marines would normally not be balanced but surprise attack with better firepower) some lore is about them meeting in the battlefield, kinda against the nature of the marine purpose.
On a side note about marines being more or less likely to fall to chaos I think personally it can be quite likely for them to fall to chaos as a whole chapter. In a way it is same as in the Heresy that their indoctrination makes them easier to accept and follow orders from their superior (obviously with some exceptions), So if on chapel master/Chief Librarian etc falls it is not too unlikely that the rest follow suit.
Peter Fehervari have made a few books that illustrates how subtly the chaos are corrupting
On the whole 'Falling to chaos' thing, what's interesting is there's a spectrum there, and frankly, a lot of comes down to interpretation, presjudice, politics and pragmatism.
Take the badab war. For the first half of the schism, it was regarded as a 'civil' matter and basically rumbled over the faultline between a space marine chapters indeprndence, their right and duty to defend their realms by any means necessary and the rights and duties of the administratum. A lot of the initial.hostility came down to thr fact that the fire hawks chapter master was a petty individual.and bore a grudge against huron. Had they not intervened, the while scenario would have been different.
What was interesting was when it was a 'civil' matter, all the planets were technically imperial and were technically on the same side. Didn't stop the novamarines (I think?) coming along and nuking the homeworlds of the mantis warriors because they didn't want to engage blade to blade. Think about that for a moment. A space marine chspter was technically nuking a compliant and loyal world that had not raised arms against the Imperium. I can imagine in terms of 'honourable feuds', this would be seen as a blow below the belt and at best, very poor form.
Now imagine if the badab war had panned out different. Lets say it was a hundred years later and huron was less of an [bleep]. The great rift, for example. THere's huron with 3,000 astartes. And a desperate time fir everyone. It could have conceivably come down to a Chapter judgement 'right, send a your warriors into battle. Make sure huron finds his end in glorious combat somewhere' instead of 'they're traitors, kill them all'. Had the chips fallen another way, The hammer could also conceivably have fallen down on the novamarines for greatly exceeding their authority and bringing war to compliant, innocent imperial citizenry. And they'd be the traitors and hounded into the maelstrom, or given some kind of penitent Crusade to make up.for it.
