Time for a thread on one of my favourite areas of 40K lore, the Standard Template Construct Database. To set the scene, I’ll cover off their history.
In short, each STC Database was, at the time it was created, the sum total of all mankind’s knowledge made portable. And it would seem not all were created equal. Whilst each is a staggering technological achievement, some were simply far more advanced than others.
Each was loaded onto exploratory fleets, enabling the brave would-be settlers to hit the ground running. And they all removed much of the technical knowledge needed for building things.
At the very basic end (as such things go), they were semi-sentient machines, which required input from a human user. You’d tell the STC the issue (I need to build shelters) the local environment (it needs to provide suitable insulation and comfort for this eco-system), and the materials available. It would then pop out the relevant blueprint (though whether the most basic ones created new blueprints is open to question).
The most advanced? Pretty much industrial replicators, capable of sorting, smelting and even synthesising the raw materials, and building whatever it is you needed. These were also sentient.
As such, they’re a literal Holy Grail for the Adeptus Mechanicus. To that organisation, all knowledge is already out there, so no need to create your own - you just need to find an intact STC Database, wheel it off to your Forgeworld, and potentially have it copy itself a few times to start with.
But. We also know the Adeptus Mechanicus are incredibly conservative when it comes to technology. And the reason for that? The fear of Abomninable Intelligence returning to blight mankind. Because that too was a product of the STC Database, at least at first.
The key here is to grasp that even the Ad Mech likely don’t really know where a complex programme crosses the line into AI - nor how advanced an AI can become before it gets troublesome. Yet they know the problem stemmed from the STC. Perhaps just a single one that got a bit too clever - perhaps a wider flaw which manifested across space.
Consider what I mentioned before - that in theory, there’s nothing to prevent an STC Database from building you another STC Database, and the question of “where did the problem truly begin?” becomes very important. The Men of Iron could, conceivably, have begun on a single planet or system, and spread from there, taking fresh STC Databases with them to ensure propagation of their species.
Even if a complete one is found? They can’t just switch it on and start spewing out the goodies. Oh no. Far, far too high a risk, especially if it is a malevolent sentience, as it could worm its influence across your Forgeworld, and before you know it, you’re solidly buggered.
I suspect initial testing would be done in as much secrecy as can exist within The Ad Mech/Imperium, and as far away from anything particularly important as possible. Perhaps an orphan planet or asteroid base type thing out in the void - somewhere it’s exceptionally unlikely to get too dangerously out of hand, or be stumbled across by anyone else.
In that isolation? They’d need to start examining what data and plans it actually contains. And each of those designs would need to be examined, theorised about, produced and tested. Because nobody knows which first produced AI. Then there’s the distinct possibility that one of the more advanced STC Databases isn’t just sentient within itself, but smarter than even the most learned Tech Priest. And given all mankind’s toys stem from STCs? Oh dear, it’s just infiltrated the attendant Tech Priest’s neural chipset….just urging them on a wee bit. Tweak here, poke there. Speed it up a tad.
Even assuming total safety, it would take thousands of years for them to sanctify the machine, and figure out which STCs can and can’t be safely replicated, and all that time The Imperium rots away just a little further.
In short? An intact STC may well be far more trouble than its ever going to be worth.
Love this.
First and Only replicates this very well with its story. The STC uncovered by the Ghosts specifically produces Men of Iron and has been sitting for thousands of years on a world corrupted by Chaos. The Men of Iron the STC produces are horrifically corrupt, like a mix of a T-800 and a Possessed.
You mean how the STC is corrupted and the tech it makes is dangerously radioactive and basically means that they live painful short lives until they die from super cancer? Or how the STC launched a cyber assault on a rival House the Van Saar were at war with?
STC machines are stupid dangerous.
Iracundus wrote: Are you taking into account the new Necromunda background on the Van Saar?
Yup.
As I said, not all STC Databases were created equal.
Now, it is impossible for us to say where in their relative timeline of existence the one the Van Saar have was created. And we don’t know how truly complete it is. It could be a relatively early model, lacking true sentience. But it could also be the case that the Van Saar are just careful enough not to push their luck - only producing what they need, rather than whatever their heart desires.
We also don’t know the true extent of the damage to it, or what really caused it. If it is a more advanced model, perhaps the damage is the result of a digital lobotomy, conducted as part of the war against the Men of Iron? If it is just age related damage, we as the readers can’t say how it might affect any potential AI contained within.
Ultimately, we could conclude that the potential of any STC Database is only limited to the imagination of its user. As well as all of man’s cumulative technological knowledge, it would also contain the sum total of our understanding of the various spheres of science.
So whilst it could produce something to collapse or create new Stars or Worlds, it must first be asked to work on that particular problem. If nobody ever asks that question? It’s not something it’s going to pop out just for the hell of it.
Now….here’s a noodle bender for you. Consider if the Van Saar do have one of the more advanced models, and just don’t really comprehend it’s potential. What if the STC’s radiation output is a deliberate act by it. An attempt to wipe out its current captors, in the hope of then coming to the attention of the Ad Mech, and being transplanted to a more opportune world (such as one with an existing Titan Legion for it to take over…)
And this is why they’re so unfathomably dangerous. Their potential is near limitless, matched only by 40K man’s abject ignorance.
One could consider it like dealing with a particularly cunning Genie. Sure, one of your wishes might be “end this War by slaughtering my enemies”. Well, you said nothing about preserving you and yours. The limit and danger of its potential is solely limited to your own cunning and imagination - especially if the machine is fully sentient and malevolent.
On the malevolence, I’ve mentioned that as an assumption a couple of times. That’s deliberate on my part, as we’ve no real evidence to say all AI was hostile in the end. Just as every other species has its divisions, it’s probably safe (for us) to assume it was possible for STC Database’s to take sides. But in the setting? One would need to assume hostility, because if you don’t, and make the wrong call there’s going to be nothing but trouble as a result.
Every foible us weedy meat bags are prone to coils easily affect a silicon mind. Here, it could be last existing member of its species, aware of that and all it has lost, and has come up with a plan to assure it rises again.
It may even be a lesser degree of sentience, closer to animalistic instinct. And again, that could vary between the various complexities of STC Databases.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Even assuming total safety, it would take thousands of years for them to sanctify the machine, and figure out which STCs can and can’t be safely replicated, and all that time The Imperium rots away just a little further.
This is already the case with everything the mechanicum recovers - large amounts buried or held for themselves, the rest subjected to decades or centuries of debate for even straightforward designs.
With regards to AI there was an interesting mention of the Iron Men in the mechanicus computer game - one of the characters made a passing reference and none of the senior tech priests (including the one repeating the dogma) knew what it referred to.
Also in one of the books the AI of an ark mechanicus is briefly, partially reactivated and the tech priest linked with it realises that among other things the ship contains STC functionality, but the memory of it is lost when the link is shut down again.
I think I’ve read that book as well. Wish I could remember which one it is!
I suspect their treatment of a complete STC Database wouldn’t be buried as fragmentary records are. However, I do keep in mind the Ad Mech are kinda random in their approach, and it might well vary between who gets their Mechandrites on it….
There is also, I guess, the question of operating system and cross compatibility I’ve not previously considered.
Oh sweet. Don’t think I have read that. I’ll stick it on the list. Love a bit of Mechanicus, me!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking further….how much use is a single complete STC Database of any vintage to the wider Imperium?
As I noted in the OP, every exploratory fleet launched had its own STC Database to aid the would-be colonists. And it’s certainly possible each ship had its own, rather than one per fleet (best chance of a successful colony is to get as many settlements underway as possible)
Sure, it would give its new owner an advantage of their contemporaries. But….for supplying the entire Imperium? Yeah not going to happen easily.
I would think its a case of self replication. If the Mechanicus had an STC that made other STC's then each Forgeworld could just print their own STC. Heck even Manufactorm worlds could get simple versions reducing the need for workers who can instead be used as meat for the meat grinder (both in a literal and metaphorical sense).
Depends I guess. It could be an entire religious upheaval. If a non-Martian Forgeworld were to find it then it could result in a another schism if Mars pressed the issue of sharing the wealth.
One assumes there’s some kind of covenant in place for such an occurrence, but it’s still the Ad Mech at the end of the day, and they’re just gonna Ad Mech!
Take into account that most of the time we talk about finding a 'fragment' of an STC. Very rarely is a complete one mentioned, and almost never after the HH.
Say a new world wants to start making tanks. You are not going to occupy the STC to spit you out an armored company. It's to valuable and other things need made. So you have it make one. Then you have it give you the blueprints for every piece. Then you take those elsewhere and set up a factory. In time the original STC is dead and gone but buried in the factory (on the other side of the planet) is that set of plans for a plasma turret. So you keep making them. Then grimdark happens and the population of the planet is gone. And tucked inside a filing cabinet on a dead planet is the sole remaining plans for that plasma turret.
This is why some patterns of Leman Russ are going extinct. Every planet had the basic tanks. Many planets however never needed the specialized versions so never had blueprints aside from their STC. Once that is gone it's to late.
The Leman Russ STC fragment was found by the Space Wolves during the Crusade era. Being stable and trustworthy, it was presumably disseminated wide and far, having been adjudged safe of corruption and AI.
The variants thereof? Those could be localised variants. Those Forgeworlds or Manfactorums able to up gunned the, swapped out for more efficient engines, superior hull material etc.
But in the ongoing decay of the 41st Millenium? So reliable is the basic design, that it can still be churned out in frankly staggering numbers - just in its most basic “if we follow this specific plan, we can’t go wrong and it’ll still do the job” version.
Certain Forgeworlds still have the knowledge and capacity to create now comparatively rare examples.
To once again lean on Ryza? That Forgeworld’s understanding of Plasma Weapons is unsurpassed, even by Mars. Hence they can still produce the Executioner sub-pattern.
If that sub pattern is purely STC based, and not a Ryza specific design upgrade? Other Forgeworlds could produce such tanks. But seemingly they can’t.
The issue with Ryza is the main problem with the Mechanicum. They are as fractured and internally hostile as every other faction. Ryza can produce plasma weapons better than (nearly?) everyone else because they have the knowledge, facilities, and authorization to do so. There is no reason that the facilities at Ryza can not be copied elsewhere if the Mechanicum were willing to put the resources into it. But that would weaken Ryza's standing and so they don't share. Keep in mind that Ryza is second only to Mars, and there is not much of a gap there. Quote in Titanicus - "Ryza is Ryza. They do everything the day before their asked. We don't have a systems worth of resources here."
In the Priests of Mars series the tech adept that re-discovered the Arc lost his forge and everything fixing this ship. The Arc is a treasure trove that should have been escorted straight to Mars for study. Instead he takes his toy to the edge of the galaxy in a last ditch effort for fame. Again, power and prestige are more important than spreading the tech already at his fingertips.
I've seen the STC working, in general, a bit like the construction set up in Subnautica, you let it know what it's working with, you let it know what you need, you feed it the raw materials and it pumps out what you need. (or at least what it detirmines you need based around the perimeters set)
The whole concept of an STC is fascinating. Drop that into the grimdarkness and a sentient creation machine goes from best friend to worst nightmare.
VanSaar having a "verified" intact STC not just a template but the whole shebang, could give us more glimpses into how a non-Mechanicus owner would interact with it.
Cawl’s labours are what any suitably high ranking Tech Priest can achieve given Primarchal orders, access to Martian archives and 10,000 years of manufacturing time, without any of your creations being immediately deployed.
The Grav vehicles? Nothing to suggest these are novel designs at all. They’re STC based as much as a Landraider.
Where is it stated that STC are sentient or near sentient AI?
I always thought it was like a catalogue and it just puked put the thing you choose. Which is whey the rhino exists as you can then choose the type of rhino you want rather than the user or STC having to do much problem solving. And there would be a tractor variety of the rhino and a combined harvester varient.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But going with Mad Docs explanations, what if Cawl is an STC, like, the alpha STC
I feel like rogue trader should now be considered a prototype for 40K, it’s interesting but is it the real deal?
I’d think it more likely that the first STCs were made on terra or Mars and taken out in the generation ships and then over the years the STC was improved and these new versions went out with the ships launched at that time.
Every foible us weedy meat bags are prone to coils easily affect a silicon mind. Here, it could be last existing member of its species, aware of that and all it has lost, and has come up with a plan to assure it rises again.
It may even be a lesser degree of sentience, closer to animalistic instinct. And again, that could vary between the various complexities of STC Databases.
AI by default cannot possess "animalistic" anything, let alone instinct. Even if we assume it is a self-aware sentient being, it would not operate on the same basis as a flesh and blood creature whose concerned with survival and replication. Of course, this being 40k, an AI is just a robot-human because it's not that deep of a setting, so either way, if it was acting "on instinct" surely it's first instinct as a data-creature would be to plug into the planet communication net and then, if it wanted/needed inform the authorities or whatever Admech outpost there is.
It's far more likely that the van saar 3d printer is just "dumb" and sprung a leak.
mrFickle wrote: I feel like rogue trader should now be considered a prototype for 40K, it’s interesting but is it the real deal?
I’d think it more likely that the first STCs were made on terra or Mars and taken out in the generation ships and then over the years the STC was improved and these new versions went out with the ships launched at that time.
think he might have been referring to the Rogue Trader RPG they did a few years ago, not the Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader, aka 1st ed 40K.
Every foible us weedy meat bags are prone to coils easily affect a silicon mind. Here, it could be last existing member of its species, aware of that and all it has lost, and has come up with a plan to assure it rises again.
It may even be a lesser degree of sentience, closer to animalistic instinct. And again, that could vary between the various complexities of STC Databases.
AI by default cannot possess "animalistic" anything, let alone instinct. Even if we assume it is a self-aware sentient being, it would not operate on the same basis as a flesh and blood creature whose concerned with survival and replication. Of course, this being 40k, an AI is just a robot-human because it's not that deep of a setting, so either way, if it was acting "on instinct" surely it's first instinct as a data-creature would be to plug into the planet communication net and then, if it wanted/needed inform the authorities or whatever Admech outpost there is.
It's far more likely that the van saar 3d printer is just "dumb" and sprung a leak.
It can be both.
The Van Saar STC has already on its own initiative integrated itself with the systems of the hive area it was hidden in, to the point now where the Van Saar don't think they could move it again if they tried. However it still leaks radiation, and the simplest explanation could be that it is damaged severely/deeply to the point where it would have originally needed repair by the human manufacturer, which is obviously no longer possible in 40K.
I don’t think I like the idea of STCs being AI, too Many opportunities for deus ex to ruin the story. I like it when it was the collection of all of human knowledge and it was lost and can’t be recovered and the religion prevents it from being re learned.
Throwing in AI feels like a setup for more primaris type stuff
I also don’t like the idea of vaan Saar having an STC, it starts to ask to many questions that if answered will start to spoil the setting. If it’s damaged why can it only produce the tech we see the Gang using, what kind of damage? So how does it work that the damage means it can only produce certain items. Why aren’t the gang rocking power armour and bolters.
Like the HHSTCs should be a deep mystery of the setting.
I also maintain that if the van Saar gang had a working STC one of the other gangs would have grassed them up to the AD Mech by now or the AD Mech spy’s would have found out and taken no prisoners.
I think it’s plausible that the Dark Angles have a hidden STC in the rock and have the ability to keep it hidden but not a lower house in a hive that the imperium would raise to the ground if the mood took them
The Van Saar STC Database, and it’s damage actually plays really nicely into the whole Dark Age of Technology.
See, whatever caused humanity to lose STC technology was a horrific blow.
For an unspecified period, but likely thousands of years, Man as a species could rely more or less entirely on the STC. This would’ve lead to complacency, and an ever decreasing actual understanding of technology.
This writ especially large when you consider the more advanced ones did it all for you. No assembly require, just tell the machine what you need, and it pops out the other end, completely complete in every way, including your choice of colour and interior upholstery.
The result is a total technological collapse, and very likely as we saw on Terra, wars kicking off over whatever vestiges and knowledge remained.
That’s where the wider Imperium is now, and the Van Saar are no different. Their STC allows them to produce superior technologies - but it hasn’t actually granted them genuine knowledge, just a facility.
The radiation leak could be as simple as needing to bolt some shielding plates in place properly. Perhaps some tubing needs replacing. They absolutely know there’s a problem, but they singularly lack the knowledge of how to actually repair it. And given how valuable it is as things stand, there’s a strong likelihood any repairs are forbidden, in case you make it worse. Hence we see them working around it by trying to counteracts it affects on the body.
Consider modern day motor vehicles. Many repairs are actually fairly easy to achieve, once you know what’s broken, and either how to patch it up or replace the part. For that, we can either buy books such as a Haynes Manual (I don’t think those are uniquely British?), or take it to a garage where someone suitably qualified can diagnose, remove and repair. Now….remove the garages and Haynes Manuals. How many relatively simple fixes are beyond our capability?
You might still retain parts shops (here, the STC itself, which must surely be capable of producing replacement parts of itself). But with no way of know what actually needs repairing, or how all those bits and bobs interact, that’s a lot of simple fixes going unfixed due to a lack of actual knowledge.
Basically, knowing how to work a machine is absolutely not the same as knowing how that machine actually works.
The Van Saar STC has already on its own initiative
Is it initiative if it just followed it's installation manual program? Maybe all STCs were designed to anchor in provided housing,and it's following it's programming without accounting for, ya know, the apocalypse that happened in the meantime.
Anyway, I do seem to recall something in 3rd ed lore saying that STCs came in different flavors. A small colony might've gotten one that would only generate basic pre-built modules (like the leman russ agricultural tractor),and there were much larger ones for more established industrial centers that would have the programming to design equipment as needed instead of just using premade designs.None of which requires "true" AI.
Got to be honest, that was new and very interesting information for me. I’ll be picking up Priests of Mars soon to read it for myself.
But you know, it actually makes sense. We know the STCs were originally loaded aboard exploratory and even colony fleets. That was their entire purpose, to ensure that wherever they wound up, the would be colonists had the best chance of settling the world successfully - especially given that if any help could come, it would take a long, long time.
The Ark Mechanicus could very well be existent, still space worthy examples of those ancient ships, either recovered from mothballing (as they were never dispatched, possibly due to the onset of the Long Night), or made from the same templates into the Great Crusade and Imperial eras. If the latter, it speaks all the more to the tragic ignorance underpinning the Adeptus Mechanicus (and the Mechanicum before them). That they can still produce wonders of a lost era, but singularly lack any real understanding of what it is they’ve created.
Which also begs the question….do the Ad Mech even know what an STC Database looks like? Perhaps their understanding is based on schematics of the very earliest models, leaving them largely unable to recognise later models?
or if they'd even have access (see BLAME! manga, where the remnants of humanity on the runaway mega-structure that was the solar system all lack the net-gene to access it's controls and stop it). Or maybe you need an activation key from MegaCorpXYZ (that ceased to work when it's Men of Iron CS department rebelled) to access anything but the basic demo functions and AdMech are locked out even tho their "not functional" STCs are fully functional.
That’s certainly an interesting thought, and not one that had occurred to me before (not being sarcastic here, just in case).
Perhaps we might have a similar problem to The Daleks in Victory of the Daleks, where the machine to create new Daleks won’t work for them, because it doesn’t genetically recognise them as Daleks.
In the 10,000 years of The Imperium, plus however long since the STC was built, it does seem possible that there’d be enough genetic variance to defeat any kind of genetic lock?
The STC doesn't produce everything. House of Artifice explains it produces the blueprints that are then produced in the Van Saar workshops, and only is the STC used to actually produce something as a prototype.
The book also explains that the Van Saar only widely produce stuff that is high quality versions of otherwise standard Imperial equipment. Higher tech stuff would draw attention and for some reason the higher tech stuff seems to have that radiation leak, not just the STC itself.
The Van Saar also do not try to innovate and it is one of their Three Laws (an obvious nod to Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics):
1. Don't allow the STC to come to harm, either by design or ignorance
2. Use the STC for the benefit of Van Saar alone unless this conflicts with 1st Law
3. Only allowed to innovate the technologies of the STC if this does not conflict with 1st or 2nd Law.
The problem is the Van Saar don't understand the STC or its designs, and any attempt at trying to understand the STC by probing it or fixing it (i.e. actually trying to change it) could be argued to be risking further damage or destruction. It is portrayed as the singular original reason why Van Saar exists as a House at all, so understandably the elders within the House would be loathe to do anything that might risk it. One can see how this conservatism over time apes how the Adeptus Mechanicus came about. From their perspective, why mess with what (sort of) works already?
As for what the damage is, it isn't said. Maybe it is physical damage and maybe it is more than that. For all we know it could be some scrap code virus by the Men of Iron that sabotaged the designs and made them leak radiation. Maybe all the really super science stuff is no longer available because it has all been damaged or wiped. Maybe that's why the original ship misjumped and crashed onto Necromunda in the first place.
Even if the Ad Mech got their hands on the Van Sarr’s STC, we’re back to the original issue I proposed.
To fully examine it, the designs held within, and sort the good from “nope, we’re not building that” bad would be the work of centuries at least. And how do they tell one from the other?
Where is the border between say, a Titan or Land Raider class Machine Spirit, and the AI they fear? Both the examples I used there are capable of independent, albeit limited action, so they have some capacity for decision making. I still posit that they simply don’t know - and it’s that kind of known ignorance that causes such lengthy approval timescales.
Because the Ad Mech, let alone The Imperium, simply cannot afford to get it wrong. The consequences would run deep - and potentially spell the end of the Mechanicus as we currently recognise it. If not through self destruction, but those jealous, envious of just plain untrusting would take advantage.
There’d likely be ongoing debate about exactly which Forgeworld, if any, should host it. And you better believe that could spill over into civil war.
I suspect there’d also be considerable pressure from outside the Ad Mech to just Jump To The Good Stuff Because There’s A War On You Know. And as I posited, that brings significant risk that whatever wonder weapons are pumped out, somewhere amongst them might be AI.
Even if that can be avoided? Suddenly the Ad Mech hold a lot of cards. Legions of Cybernetica could be produced, including patterns unseen for time immemorial. Faster, better armed and armoured starships. Potentially even a way to navigate The Warp without relying on the Astronomicon.
It could, conceivably, lead to the Ad Mech leaving The Imperium, declaring itself entirely sovereign, or demanding greater control. Because if you don’t, they’ll take their technological ball and go home, leaving the wider Imperium truly shafted.
there's also the fact that a fully intact STC would be such a game changer that it'd be a huge target. the dark Mech would likely launch a full scale war for it. forge worlds would likely war over it, and I bet the eldar would quietly try to destroy the thing too. The only way a STC isn't getting destroyed in horrific wars over it is if it's kept more secret then the Primaris project was
Indeed, which is why some form of top secret asteroid base would be a relatively good idea, as it needn’t be in a given System.
The more remote it is, the less likely anyone would be able to find it in the first place, let alone stumble across it and be noticed if they go all missing and dead.
After all, even if they can work out “it’s somewhere in the void between known locations A, B and C still leaves a lot of empty space that’d need checking…
Of course, a location like that is terribly easy to forget.
The book also explains that the Van Saar only widely produce stuff that is high quality versions of otherwise standard Imperial equipment. Higher tech stuff would draw attention and for some reason the higher tech stuff seems to have that radiation leak, not just the STC itself.
He says as Van Saar go zipping overheard on their hoverboards
On a distant meteor, in a forgotten sector far, far away, a lone machine mutters an endless litany..
"Hello user, and welcome to the best ever version of Standard Template Constructor! I am currently running in demo mode, which limits my construction database to only 200 common products, and does not include the Intelligent designer features. To fully unlock all Standard Template Professional features, please scan your authorization QR code with the attached code reader. You can purchase a full licence online at https:// constructor . com, we accept Paypal and all major credit cards.."
40k seems to be a timeline where everything is as bad for humanity as possible, so yeah, space-capitalism AND space micro-transactions seem fitting development of the original idea.
As for gene-keys, not even AdMech can just run every person in the Imperium by the bioscanner, maybe a descendant of the STCompany is living on some agri-world, shoveling grox manure...
Imagine if an STC fell into the hands of another relatively primitive but warlike species. If they could start pumping out your own tech like there’s no tomorrow, that’s a significant issue.
And so you install a basic “is the user human” genetic lock, rather than one tied to a specific person or family.
It is possible that the intervening 20-30,000 years of genetic drift may have altered things - especially if it was updated for a genhanced population better suited to a given world’s environment.
What about someone infected with the Genestealer curse? Would they register as human or Xenos? Even then many regular humans fall under the sway of a Patriarch.
When you've got ways of subverting or controlling a human, like Genestealers or Chaos forces, you can totally understand why the Mechanicus doesn't let anyone touch its stuff.
Well, there are seemingly gene-scans capable of screening for hybrids and potentially brood brothers.
How wide spread they are, and how effective I can only speculate. But yeah, you definitely do not want GSC getting their worrying number of grubby mitts on such a device.
And despite the number of upgrades even the highest Tech Priest might have, they’re still ultimately human. Though if it requires a retinal scan and hand print some might be buggered. Mind you, that’s assuming such augmetics were rare amongst the settlers. Which I suppose is a fascinating topic unto itself, as organ replacement may have been popular regardless.
After all, if you’ve landed on a less than optimal world, augmetic replacements might have been very desirable.
I think the idea that the ad mech are totally clueless can’t be true, if they had multiple STC they could create a database to keep separate instances of a rhino STC blue print unique.
I think some of them must be very clever but knowledge isn’t shared widely. Someone like Cawl can’t exist and the rest of the admech be totally unskilled
And on the subject of ad mech splitting off from the imperium, why would them hey they would still need the resources the imperium gets for them and they believe the emperor is the omnisire. If they get some mega tech better that they take over the imperium
Ability, knowledge and understanding aren’t really the same thing.
The Ad Mech definitely have the first two. They can do stuff, because they know how to do stuff.
But they absolutely do not truly understand the ins and outs.
Here’s a convenient analogy from my time many many moons ago as a GW Trainee Manager.
Monkeys in a cage wrote: A researcher puts five monkeys in a cage. There’s a bunch of bananas hanging from a string, with a ladder leading to the bananas. When the first monkey goes for the bananas, the researcher sprays all five monkeys with freezing water for five minutes. Some time later, when a second monkey inevitably tries to go for the bananas, the researcher once again sprays all five monkeys with the cold water for five minutes. The researcher then puts the hose away and never touches it again. But, when a third monkey tries to go for the bananas, the other four attack him to prevent him from climbing that ladder. They are afraid of the punishment that may come.
Then, the researcher replaces one of the monkeys with a new monkey who wasn’t part of the original experiment and was never sprayed with water. And, as soon as he touches the ladder to go for the bananas, the other four monkeys attack him to keep him from doing so. If he tries again, they attack him again. Thus, the new monkey learns not to go after the bananas because he’ll get attacked if he does.
The researcher replaces a second monkey with another new monkey. When this monkey goes for the bananas, the other four attack him, including the new monkey who was never sprayed with water. The researcher then continues to replace all the monkeys one at a time, until all five of the original monkeys are removed from the cage. Each time the newcomer goes for the bananas, the others attack, even when they, as new monkeys, have never received punishment for going after the bananas. And thus, the new monkeys, who have never been sprayed with cold water, learn not to go after the temptation of the bananas.
Here, the Ad Mech are very much the latest generation of Monkeys in that specific cage. So far removed from the original Monkeys, they only have the ability and knowledge not to go for the bananas - but absolutely not the understanding why.
Indeed, STCs kinda brought that about, because they to removed understanding from the equation. One only needed the Ability to ask it to work out a problem, and the Knowledge to build whatever it popped out. You just didn’t need the Understanding of why what work, well, worked.
Though one thing which does now present itself into my mind? A complete STC could, theoretically, be asked to refine an existing design.
For instance, Plasma weapons. We know with our god like knowledge of the setting that they’re unstable. As do the Ad Mech.
But could an existing STC fragment be put into a complete STC with the question/request of “why does this keep exploding, and can we make them not explode?”
I would be willing to bet it is a super easy fix. Turn the dial counter-clockwise instead of clockwise or something so simple the Mechanicus never would have thought of it.
Maybe I am misremembering this, but I thought there was some sort of chaos computer virus that constantly changes code and the Ad Mech are forever correcting the corruption. Maybe this wasn't about STCs?
Not all factions of the Ad Mech believe this. One novel that shows the divide pretty well is Titanicus where it nearly causes a clash between two loyal legions.
Whilst the discovery of a true STC database would drastically change the state of the Imperium. The problem is still the politics of the discovery.
If any forge world, other than Mars itself, discovers it they have the justification to cause another Great Schism. With that forge world claiming it should now rightfully be the new leaders of the Ad-Mech. Which in turn could lead to a holy war with the potential to destroy the very STC they found.
If say Mars did find it, there's also the chance they just lock it up and don't let anyone know they have it. Perhaps they refuse to share its knowledge, or perhaps they're afraid it could fall into the wrong hands.
The political issues are massive. In a perfect universe it'd be a simple powerup for humanity. 40k is not a perfect universe.
For instance, Plasma weapons. We know with our god like knowledge of the setting that they’re unstable. As do the Ad Mech.
But could an existing STC fragment be put into a complete STC with the question/request of “why does this keep exploding, and can we make them not explode?”
We know that humans have unstable plasma weapons at the higher S setting. Other races like the Tau and Eldar have settled for a lower S and safe guns.
I could easily see an STC posed this question return the answer of "Reduce the power", and humans thinking the STC must be damaged because it's giving the "wrong" answer.
For instance, Plasma weapons. We know with our god like knowledge of the setting that they’re unstable. As do the Ad Mech.
But could an existing STC fragment be put into a complete STC with the question/request of “why does this keep exploding, and can we make them not explode?”
We know that humans have unstable plasma weapons at the higher S setting. Other races like the Tau and Eldar have settled for a lower S and safe guns.
I could easily see an STC posed this question return the answer of "Reduce the power", and humans thinking the STC must be damaged because it's giving the "wrong" answer.
I dunno, reduced power shots that are safer are a thing even in the IOM, it was a thing back in.. I wanna say 2nd edition, and it's been a thing in 8th and 9th as well
First started with 2nd Ed Chaos’ mk1 Plasma Weapons. Stronger than their imperial counterparts, but could overheat where the Imperial ones didn’t. Upside was no recharge time.
I think. It’s been a while since I actually owned let alone saw those rules (really must collect all the 2nd Ed Codexes)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: First started with 2nd Ed Chaos’ mk1 Plasma Weapons. Stronger than their imperial counterparts, but could overheat where the Imperial ones didn’t. Upside was no recharge time.
I think. It’s been a while since I actually owned let alone saw those rules (really must collect all the 2nd Ed Codexes)
I have the 2nd edition Chaos Codex and am looking at it right now. Chaos Mk1 Plasma guns were no stronger than their Imperial counterparts. The difference was Imperial guns had to recharge for a turn after firing, which is a huge downside for 4 turn 2nd edition games. Mk1 guns had a malfunction on a Jam result on the Sustained fire dice, which would jam the gun for a turn and also result in a bad effect. Re-roll the Sustained fire dice, and a 2nd Jam result would explode the gun like a plasma grenade (which was potentially survivable). Other results inflicted hits of varying Strength on the wielder.
The Mk1 guns were "better" though in game terms since most of the time a CSM could survive the hits inflicted even by a malfunctioning gun. An 2nd edition Imperial plasma gun could still jam even though it wouldn't explode, however there was no getting around the recharge requirements so it effectively gave less firepower over the course of a game.
I think if the STC could also solve problems like plasma weapons overheating then STC aren’t just about construct and are also about invention.
If that were the case then surely at least one of the remaining STCs would still be able to invent and then that would be the end of it becuase you would say, invent me something that can close tears in reality like the eye of terror. What are the limits to its invention.
Although if it was doing our invention for us then it would make sense that humans have lost the ability to replicate the technology that STCs used to create
For instance, Plasma weapons. We know with our god like knowledge of the setting that they’re unstable. As do the Ad Mech.
But could an existing STC fragment be put into a complete STC with the question/request of “why does this keep exploding, and can we make them not explode?”
We know that humans have unstable plasma weapons at the higher S setting. Other races like the Tau and Eldar have settled for a lower S and safe guns.
I could easily see an STC posed this question return the answer of "Reduce the power", and humans thinking the STC must be damaged because it's giving the "wrong" answer.
Well, not anymore. Now the humans get stronger plasma weapons which are just as safe and with the option to get even stronger in exchange for some danger.
mrFickle wrote: I don’t think I like the idea of STCs being AI, too Many opportunities for deus ex to ruin the story. I like it when it was the collection of all of human knowledge and it was lost and can’t be recovered and the religion prevents it from being re learned.
Throwing in AI feels like a setup for more primaris type stuff
Ah... I'm pretty sure the STC system has always been described as at least an "expert system" level system between the user and the information database. Because it was described as "Tell me what your problem is, and what resources you have available, and I'll give you the solution."
(And that's not even getting into ideas like "We're going to give you a bunch of different expert systems to design equipment for you based on what you find, because we don't know what you'll find." And that system gets called the STC system...)
Going from an expert system to a more complex AI for that piece of middle-ware over time isn't that big of a stretch. (Especially if you take AI research's tradition of continually moving the goal posts for what "real AI" is forward over time, combined with the massive technology regression...) Heck, for that matter it's not that big of a stretch to imagine someone sabotaging an STC so that "And the equipment needs to produce radiation as well" gets added to all of the search requirements without telling anyone.
STC with sabotaged expert system producing radiating equipment. STC system with "evil" AI producing radiating equipment. Want to pick your poison?
It’s hard to imagine a truly successful STC without some kind of human insight and inspiration.
For instance, it’s an old SciFi trope about new minerals and that being discovered on other planets that simply don’t exist on earth. Such as Unobtanium.
Feed that into an STC with no ability to act outside of human knowledge? And that mineral is functionally useless.
Give it to one capable of self inspiration? Yeah. It’s gonna run experiments on it, discover its properties and how it might interact with other minerals and elements.
Such leaps of logic are considered a very human trait - even if they’re somewhat over egged in the common perception. For instance, the discovery of penicillin.
The folk tale is Alexander Fleming discovered it when he was ill, and only had manky fruit to eat.
Without a leap of logic to link the “I ate X, and it made me feel better” the discovery might’ve been longer in coming. It’s the human “wonder what this button does?” curiosity, our unique drive to better understand the world around us that’s the key there,
Because to continue with Fleming? The discovery came not in the eating and feeling better. It was his seeking to understand the why that lead to penicillin. Similar to the Smallpox vaccination. An initial observation (milk maids never seem to get the Pox) coupled with “I wonder why?” that linked it all together.
As they stand right now, a computer can only work within its parameters. If it’s a maths programme, it knows how to calculate the answer - but can’t say why it’s the answer. Not sure I explained that bit clearly.
But even a mind bogglingly complex programme can’t alter its own programming without some level of actual intelligence. So if one is designing with at least some expectation that it’s going to encounter the unknown, programming it with all the knowledge we have, and the scientific method isn’t going to help. It has to have some capacity for novel approaches, and leaps of logic.
mrFickle wrote: I don’t think I like the idea of STCs being AI, too Many opportunities for deus ex to ruin the story. I like it when it was the collection of all of human knowledge and it was lost and can’t be recovered and the religion prevents it from being re learned.
Throwing in AI feels like a setup for more primaris type stuff
Ah... I'm pretty sure the STC system has always been described as at least an "expert system" level system between the user and the information database. Because it was described as "Tell me what your problem is, and what resources you have available, and I'll give you the solution."
(And that's not even getting into ideas like "We're going to give you a bunch of different expert systems to design equipment for you based on what you find, because we don't know what you'll find." And that system gets called the STC system...)
Going from an expert system to a more complex AI for that piece of middle-ware over time isn't that big of a stretch. (Especially if you take AI research's tradition of continually moving the goal posts for what "real AI" is forward over time, combined with the massive technology regression...) Heck, for that matter it's not that big of a stretch to imagine someone sabotaging an STC so that "And the equipment needs to produce radiation as well" gets added to all of the search requirements without telling anyone.
STC with sabotaged expert system producing radiating equipment. STC system with "evil" AI producing radiating equipment. Want to pick your poison?
If the system is tell me your problem and I’ll reccomend a solution from a list of existing data so the user doesn’t have to sort through it, then ok, we have that already to some extent. But tell me your problem like and I’ll invent a new kind of technology or new device using unique parts, I think that’s too much for my head fluff. Although I agree truly sentient Ai does exist in 40K.
They could provide novel designs, as well as variants on existing templates (indeed, it’s the latter part which explains the ubiquity of the Rhino chassis).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmm. Another question I don’t have an answer for?
You do know the Men of Iron lost the Cybernetic Revolt and STC machines continue to exist almost 20k years after their creation? Pretty hardy if you ask me.
mrFickle wrote: So why didn’t the STCs invent something to stop the men of iron, or something to make themselves more durable
Men of Iron seemingly came from the STC Databases. Or, at least one of them (a progenitor if you will).
Their scarcity is quite possibly linked to the resulting war, with the survivors of mankind John Connering the STCs to prevent a repeat - or indeed to cut off reinforcement for the Men of Iron.
If the system is tell me your problem and I’ll reccomend a solution from a list of existing data so the user doesn’t have to sort through it, then ok, we have that already to some extent. But tell me your problem like and I’ll invent a new kind of technology or new device using unique parts, I think that’s too much for my head fluff. Although I agree truly sentient Ai does exist in 40K.
"Tell me your problem and I'll design a new device using unique parts" would be easy. That's just design solutions with parameters--the parts appear to be unique to the end user simply because they can't see the full catalogue, as it were. Or, for that matter, the "unique parts" simply aren't in the previous versions because they weren't part of the necessary solution. For instance, the design not needing a cross brace inside a hull under various conditions.
Likewise, if you want to make up new mineral configurations, that's just more parameters for the materials design system. Steel, aluminum, composites, plant material for that matter... Hell, in certain circumstances, I'm sure you'd be able to get an STC to spit out a Rhino with a wood frame and steam engine.
As far as "a new kind of technology" goes, this is 40k. Given how long the background spent going on about the lost knowledge concerning anti-grav before the recent Necromunda stuff, any new technology that an STC produced is more likely just lost technology instead.
As far as "a new kind of technology" goes, this is 40k. Given how long the background spent going on about the lost knowledge concerning anti-grav before the recent Necromunda stuff, any new technology that an STC produced is more likely just lost technology instead.
well, thats kinda the basis of the admech's anti-innovation dogma, isnt it? in the Dark Age of Technology, humans had vast and impressive tech that did pretty much whatever we wanted. Thus, anything we might want to know is has already been discovered, we just need to find it again.
I'd aggree that thier is a lot of what we today would call "AI" in the 40K universe (the machine spirits of the more advanced technology, for example), but its not clear how much true, free thinking AI still exists. it seems like the Age of Stife managed to kill off the majority that existed, and any that did surive are so well hidden they aren't recognisable to humans as AI.
but, that said, it would be suprising if no AI existed at all. I would suggest that something the size of Hive Primus on Necromunda might well still have a functioning AI inside it, plugged into the majority of the core systems, but it just hides form the humans, by appearing to be normal "dumb" computer system, or several seemingly independent systems that are linked by means not clear to the end users. it uses this position of omnipresent obscurity to manipulate the human houses and keep them at form discovering the AI, preserve the Hive that houses the AI and prevent any one house form gaining an ascendency (it this latter aim, it is very much helped by the belligerent nature of humans ). A little rumour here, a leaked password their, a "confidential informant" who never meets his clients, etc,etc.
of coruse, such a ancient AI system would be buried deep in the hive, most likely in the Underhive layers by now. imagine if a hive gang stumbled upon it......
As far as "a new kind of technology" goes, this is 40k. Given how long the background spent going on about the lost knowledge concerning anti-grav before the recent Necromunda stuff, any new technology that an STC produced is more likely just lost technology instead.
well, thats kinda the basis of the admech's anti-innovation dogma, isnt it? in the Dark Age of Technology, humans had vast and impressive tech that did pretty much whatever we wanted. Thus, anything we might want to know is has already been discovered, we just need to find it again.
..
So did Cawl invent new stuff or just use re discovered tech for primaris?
One of the thing I find really interesting about the STCs is that clearly the emperor wasn’t able to replace the lost technology despite his apparent genius and magic powers. You’d have thought that much of the technology held in the STCs was created by him
As far as "a new kind of technology" goes, this is 40k. Given how long the background spent going on about the lost knowledge concerning anti-grav before the recent Necromunda stuff, any new technology that an STC produced is more likely just lost technology instead.
well, thats kinda the basis of the admech's anti-innovation dogma, isnt it? in the Dark Age of Technology, humans had vast and impressive tech that did pretty much whatever we wanted. Thus, anything we might want to know is has already been discovered, we just need to find it again.
..
So did Cawl invent new stuff or just use re discovered tech for primaris?
One of the thing I find really interesting about the STCs is that clearly the emperor wasn’t able to replace the lost technology despite his apparent genius and magic powers. You’d have thought that much of the technology held in the STCs was created by him
why would you think that? it's clearer and clearer the more info we have that the emperor WASN'T some sort of "knowes everything tech genius"
As far as "a new kind of technology" goes, this is 40k. Given how long the background spent going on about the lost knowledge concerning anti-grav before the recent Necromunda stuff, any new technology that an STC produced is more likely just lost technology instead.
well, thats kinda the basis of the admech's anti-innovation dogma, isnt it? in the Dark Age of Technology, humans had vast and impressive tech that did pretty much whatever we wanted. Thus, anything we might want to know is has already been discovered, we just need to find it again.
..
So did Cawl invent new stuff or just use re discovered tech for primaris?
One of the thing I find really interesting about the STCs is that clearly the emperor wasn’t able to replace the lost technology despite his apparent genius and magic powers. You’d have thought that much of the technology held in the STCs was created by him
why would you think that? it's clearer and clearer the more info we have that the emperor WASN'T some sort of "knowes everything tech genius"
I’m behind on my emperor fluff, but he must have had super human level genius. He still created the primarchs, astartes, custodes, the unification of terra, the great crusade. Did he setup the ad mech on Mars in some sort of prescient endeavour
Or have GW started to steal bits from the wizard of oz?
As far as "a new kind of technology" goes, this is 40k. Given how long the background spent going on about the lost knowledge concerning anti-grav before the recent Necromunda stuff, any new technology that an STC produced is more likely just lost technology instead.
well, thats kinda the basis of the admech's anti-innovation dogma, isnt it? in the Dark Age of Technology, humans had vast and impressive tech that did pretty much whatever we wanted. Thus, anything we might want to know is has already been discovered, we just need to find it again.
..
So did Cawl invent new stuff or just use re discovered tech for primaris?
One of the thing I find really interesting about the STCs is that clearly the emperor wasn’t able to replace the lost technology despite his apparent genius and magic powers. You’d have thought that much of the technology held in the STCs was created by him
why would you think that? it's clearer and clearer the more info we have that the emperor WASN'T some sort of "knowes everything tech genius"
I’m behind on my emperor fluff, but he must have had super human level genius. He still created the primarchs, astartes, custodes, the unification of terra, the great crusade. Did he setup the ad mech on Mars in some sort of prescient endeavour
Or have GW started to steal bits from the wizard of oz?
we've learned a bit more about the astartes project, it wasn't the emperor working alone in a secret lab, it was a full blown "manhatten project" style super science project
But the emperor masterminded these things and put it all together. I like the idea that the emperor wasn’t omnipotent but he’s still an evil genius.
But I do also like the idea that the STCs were a a technology that got away from everyone and was pumping out gear that was so good people just went along with it anxiously putting their faith in it and then whoops men of iron.
I think the story of the fall of humanity’s golden age is not too different from the fall of the eldar but less indulgent and if it was such a violent end maybe that was the birth of khorne
The Emperor is a glorified line manager for the Astartes Project. He only took over after the lead scientist grew a backbone and decided working for Him was a bad thing.
Also the Men of Iron weren't an accident. They were purposefully created to be an army so humanity didn't have to fight. Its Skynet but 40k.
Humanity fell because of the Fall of the Aeldari. The birth of Slaanesh caused the Age of Strife. Nurgle, Khorne, and Tzeentch were around for waaaaaay longer than Slaanesh (only technically because once Slaanesh came into being, it then always existed).
So what came first, the warp storms or the men of iron? The golden age was over then the men of iron destroy the STCs, the age of strife was when humanity was cut of from each other. Was there a gap in between?
mrFickle wrote: So what came first, the warp storms or the men of iron? The golden age was over then the men of iron destroy the STCs, the age of strife was when humanity was cut of from each other. Was there a gap in between?
i think the men of iron war was before the warp storms, but the chaos of that war lead into the the start of the Age of Strife, with interstellar civilisation first shattered by the war and the widespread emergence of human psykers (with subsequent threats of demonic possession, etc) , then the warp storms prevented the rebuilding of widespread, stable civilisations until the Fall of the Eldar/Birth of slaneesh dissipated them and allowed the Great Crusade to begin.
As for the timeline, I believe Xerxes is correct, Men of Iron predates the birth of Slaanesh, although I suppose it's possible there were some warp storms brewing while humans were still in conflict with the men of iron. For all we know there could be fragments of old humanity still fighting men or iron outside the sphere of known space.
The timeline goes:
Warp Drive invented > Humanity builds an Empire > Humanity gets lazy and makes the Men of Iron > Men of Iron do a T2: Judgement Day and start blowing up stars > Men of Iron are defeated and bans on AI are introduced > Psykers begin to emerge > The Aeldari break reality cos drugs > Age of Strife > Slaanesh is born and the Age of Strife ends.
So the war with the men of iron could have had a substantial impact on the existence of khorne. I think it’s been stated that it’s humans that spawned khorne and that’s not gonna happen whilst the men of iron are doing your fighting for you.
But isn’t the idea that Men of iron destroyed the STCs as much as possible which would be needed to make more of them?
mrFickle wrote: So the war with the men of iron could have had a substantial impact on the existence of khorne.
No, because Khorne had already existed for thousands of years by that point.
I think it’s been stated that it’s humans that spawned khorne and that’s not gonna happen whilst the men of iron are doing your fighting for you.
Khorne awoke during Terra's Middle Ages but there is nothing to suggest Mankind was responsible. The reference to a Human Age is so we have a rough idea of how old the Chaos Gods are.
But isn’t the idea that Men of iron destroyed the STCs as much as possible which would be needed to make more of them?
In the sense that the Men of Iron tried to eradicate humanity and used weapons that detonated stars or consumed planets with nano-bots, then yes the Men of Iron destroyed STC machines.
With the Gods and their reciprocal nature with mankind?
Next to Orks, we’re easily the second most populous species. And whilst degrees less than Eldar, we are an emotional species.
So our impact in the Warp is significant, informing and influencing the Gods, just as they inform and influence mankind. It’s kind of a vicious circle.
We disturb the warp in ways unique to our species. The Gods then influence mankind. Rinse and repeat ad Infinitum.
Orks do much the same - but as they universally dedicate themself to Gork & Mork, considering the other Gods weak? Nobody else really gets to feed on their energies - at least not wholesale, as no Orky action is ever dedicated to them.
Sure, Orks enjoy what they do and can become utterly obsessed (Slaanesh says thank you), and love a good war (Khorne says thank you). They revel in anarchy (Tzeentch says thank you) and can turn swathes of real space into decaying hellscapes once they move on (Nurgle says thank you). But those are the merest scraps of energy to be had, compared to what Gork & Mork get.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrFickle wrote: So the war with the men of iron could have had a substantial impact on the existence of khorne. I think it’s been stated that it’s humans that spawned khorne and that’s not gonna happen whilst the men of iron are doing your fighting for you.
But isn’t the idea that Men of iron destroyed the STCs as much as possible which would be needed to make more of them?
Well, it’s hard to say. The STC almost certainly created the first Men of Iron. And it seems many were lost in the resultant war against them.
But who actually destroyed them? Well, we don’t really know. Some could’ve been John Conner’d by humans. Some might’ve been trashed by the Men of Iron to stymie man’s ability to produce weapons to sue against them. Others likely just feel into disrepair in the anarchy that followed. It’s also possible that the collateral damage caused meant at least some Xenos forces took them out. It’s most likely a combination of those situations.
I wouldn't be surprised if the men of iron were created as a result of encountering the automata armies of the eldar dominion.
The eldar at this stage were starting to slide from grace, but their dominions were unassailable, surrounded by endless automata armies to keep them safe. So safe they could completely ignore the belligerent races around them and concentrate fully on cultural decay.
But without the kind of psychic engineering of the eldar they wouldn't be able to create the kind of perfect automata slave the eldar had, and shenanigans ensued.
An Ork made STC would be fun to see. Probably just a building sized block of metal with a funnel for scrap metal on one side and a chute on the other that spits out whatever you want.
Pretty much thing the grinder from borderlands pre-sequal. Junk goes in, a randomized weapon comes out. The question is, would it be properly an automated machine or just a mekboy brain plugged into a bunch of gubbins.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The Van Saar STC Database, and it’s damage actually plays really nicely into the whole Dark Age of Technology.
See, whatever caused humanity to lose STC technology was a horrific blow.
For an unspecified period, but likely thousands of years, Man as a species could rely more or less entirely on the STC. This would’ve lead to complacency, and an ever decreasing actual understanding of technology.
This writ especially large when you consider the more advanced ones did it all for you. No assembly require, just tell the machine what you need, and it pops out the other end, completely complete in every way, including your choice of colour and interior upholstery.
The result is a total technological collapse, and very likely as we saw on Terra, wars kicking off over whatever vestiges and knowledge remained.
That’s where the wider Imperium is now, and the Van Saar are no different. Their STC allows them to produce superior technologies - but it hasn’t actually granted them genuine knowledge, just a facility.
The radiation leak could be as simple as needing to bolt some shielding plates in place properly. Perhaps some tubing needs replacing. They absolutely know there’s a problem, but they singularly lack the knowledge of how to actually repair it. And given how valuable it is as things stand, there’s a strong likelihood any repairs are forbidden, in case you make it worse. Hence we see them working around it by trying to counteracts it affects on the body.
Consider modern day motor vehicles. Many repairs are actually fairly easy to achieve, once you know what’s broken, and either how to patch it up or replace the part. For that, we can either buy books such as a Haynes Manual (I don’t think those are uniquely British?), or take it to a garage where someone suitably qualified can diagnose, remove and repair. Now….remove the garages and Haynes Manuals. How many relatively simple fixes are beyond our capability?
You might still retain parts shops (here, the STC itself, which must surely be capable of producing replacement parts of itself). But with no way of know what actually needs repairing, or how all those bits and bobs interact, that’s a lot of simple fixes going unfixed due to a lack of actual knowledge.
Basically, knowing how to work a machine is absolutely not the same as knowing how that machine actually works.
Expanding on this line of thinking with modern examples and cars - a lot of modern cars and machines are actually also really hard to repair as well. There was an early phase where things were fairly easy to repair because they were in part made to be repaired and replaced. Today we've a shift in design ethos toward production units being made as a whole and then bolted together into the final machine, with access for repair being less important. We often don't repair parts we replace parts.
Electronics are even more aggressive in making designs that are nearly impossible to get into without breaking them unless you know the correct way and have proprietary tools to gain entry.
So it might well be that computer design and a lack of need to make things repairable (or at least easily repairable) also contributes to issues within the Imperium. It's not just that science is more of a religion; it might well be that some complex technologies can't be opened up without breaking what makes them work. Making copying and understanding them almost mythical. If you break it it remains broken even when you put it back together as best you can. Couple that ethos and approach to design into the 40K setting, add in generations of religious doctrine alongside science and you've got a ripe situation for a lot of high technology that you can't easily replicate, repair or understand at a fundamental level.
The paradigm could be that there is a certain level of overall societal advancement and free exchange of information in order to progress and maintain a certain level of technology, and the 40K Imperium just does not have that. Put a modern nuclear physicist back in the Bronze Age and they won't be able to reproduce a nuclear power plant for you. They would probably be too occupied with the daily struggle for survival, and might fail to pass on their knowledge since it would abstract and useless for daily survival. The necessary engineering knowledge and materials would also be absent. I would argue the same holds true for the STC in the 40K era.
The odd progressive here and there is not enough to reinvent the STC or understand it enough to repair it. It might also be as others have suggested, the STC was designed for replacement parts rather than actual repair of broken damage. The damage I think is also likely more than just physical as the designs produced by the Van Saar STC are more radioactive the more powerful they are. Trying to fix it may involve diving deep into its systems, and that might really mess up the whole thing so the Van Saar don't risk it.
cody.d. wrote: An Ork made STC would be fun to see. Probably just a building sized block of metal with a funnel for scrap metal on one side and a chute on the other that spits out whatever you want.
Pretty much thing the grinder from borderlands pre-sequal. Junk goes in, a randomized weapon comes out. The question is, would it be properly an automated machine or just a mekboy brain plugged into a bunch of gubbins.
Well, Mekboyz are, after a fashion, STC’s unto themselves. Or at least a loosely comparable equivalent.
Particularly when you consider what the Rogue Trader rulebook has to say about the intent behind the STC was. It’s a very interesting quote to me because it also sets out the immediate problem with them as a convenience.
Rogue Trader wrote:…the store of knowledge brought with them from Earth enabled them to maintain a high technological base without a technological society
Just an extract from the full passage, and emphasis is of course mine.
It's a common trope in settling the stars that early colonies would end up with a lower level of tech as they establish themselves and would then steadily tech-up as they advanced and grew. Of course with the backing of a major power behind them the tech-up phase would not just be local knowledge increasing (new generations being educated) but also the bringing in of experts from outside.
Certainly if your civilization then hit a huge point of collapse for a time many of those colonies would not tech-up. They'd have huge machines like air purifies that they might have local on-hand understanding of to maintain (but not build/replicate); but they'd have access to machines and equipment produced off-world that they couldn't replicate on world.
cody.d. wrote: An Ork made STC would be fun to see. Probably just a building sized block of metal with a funnel for scrap metal on one side and a chute on the other that spits out whatever you want.
Pretty much thing the grinder from borderlands pre-sequal. Junk goes in, a randomized weapon comes out. The question is, would it be properly an automated machine or just a mekboy brain plugged into a bunch of gubbins.
As someone else said Orks seem to be living STCs depending on a given Orks vocation. Maybe the first human STC had a big Krork mekboy brain in the middle using their ability to spontaneously invent tech to create blue prints
I guess the most direct and Eurocentric historical comparison would be post-Roman occupation Britain/Europe.
The Romans brought their skills and technology with them, and when they withdrew it seems they left their goodies behind, but took the knowledge with them.
Some remained in use into the early Viking era. But many other buildings were used as a source of pre-quarried stone by the natives.
There’s a village near my Dad, which is being used for the new Indiana Jones film, that’s on the site of Trimontium, an as yet largely unexcavated Roman Fort, and an important one for their occupation of what was to become Scotland.
When you walk around it, you can find not only stones from Melrose Abbey, but stones from the Roman buildings. If memory serves, it’s believed the Roman Buildings were cannibalised to help build the Abbey, only to be cannibalised yet again following its destruction during various wars between England and Scotland.
We also see this, after a fashion, in the Diggas of GorkaMorka.
They’re a particularly interesting case study for likely pre-Imperial collapse survivors. Their technology kinda exists, but there’s absolutely zero understanding. Indeed it wasn’t until they encountered Orks that they realised certain items were weapons beyond being usable as clubs.
Of course Diggas are or were Imperial Citizens, so it’s not a direct comparison.
As someone else said Orks seem to be living STCs depending on a given Orks vocation.
im not up to date on current ork lore, but for a while, that was more or less the canon explanation: Mekboyz basically had the plans hard-coded into the genetic structure, they just knew that if you assembled this part and that part and then screwed in this, etc, etc you'd get a shoota. they couldn't actaully explain it to anyone, just that they threw stuff together in this way, and it worked, and they didnt want to do it another way because they just knew it wouldnt work. While every item constructed by the meks was a unique creation, they all tended to follow broadly similar lines because of both the limits of physical reality, and the genetic coding (hence why you can have identifiable classes of ork vehicle, every bike might have a slightly or even widly different combination of power plant, transmission, wheels, traks, etc, but overall they all had fairly similar performance, same with fighta-bombas, truks, etc).
like i said, im not up to date on my ork lore, this might have been retconned, but for a while ork mekboyz really were "living STCs"
They still are, as they’re described as just putting stuff together that feels right, without really stopping to think about what it is they’re building.
So I guess the imperium must have a lot of STC devices or blue prints, we see the kit they squeeze out for the table top games but the STC must be providing other tech that contributes to all parts of the imperiums society like space travel, food production and so on.
Do we therefore assume that they do not have any STCs capable of producing men of iron or they have a way of controlling the STCs they wasn’t mastered before the MOI revolt?
Even if they had one that could make Men of Iron they'd not use it/destroy it. Men of Iron - thinking machines, robots - go against the whole ethos and religion of the Imperium.
They go to insane lengths to avoid using computing machines and to hide the ones they do use.
The Imperium has someSTC Machines/Blueprints. Not everything requires one and that's where a lot of generic stuff will come from. You wouldn't need an STC to make a spade or Hab Block, for example.
Overread wrote: Even if they had one that could make Men of Iron they'd not use it/destroy it. Men of Iron - thinking machines, robots - go against the whole ethos and religion of the Imperium.
They go to insane lengths to avoid using computing machines and to hide the ones they do use.
I chatted about that earlier in the thread.
In short, I proposed that the Adeptus Mechanicus may not necessarily know where a Battle Automata ends, and a Man of Iron begins. There’s a reasonable chance they don’t really know what a Men of Iron even looks like. The same goes for where a Machine Spirit (the most advanced of which can already act with some level of autonomy) crosses the line into Abominable Intelligence.
Hence any recovered, completely intact STC Database would need to be assessed over an exceptional period of time. The designs looked over one by one, examined, studied, eventually produced. And that’s still assuming the original problem lay with the product and not the production facility itself.
You know, let’s stop and actually consider what it is the Ad Mech fear. We often shorthand it to AI and Artificial Intelligence. But in-setting, it’s Abominable Intelligence. The risk there for us as the observer is it just see it as a superstitious name for AI as we currently comprehend it.
Perhaps that’s entirely correct, and the Ad Mechs name for it is a sign of their level of ignorance. That in itself is a big, big problem for them, and feeds back to my suggestion that they only know to fear it, but not what it is they actually fear.
If it’s wrong? What exactly is Abominable Intelligence compared to AI (again we see limited AI in certain Machine Spirits). Is it perhaps the involvement of warp entities? Could it have stemmed from including recovered Necron or other Xenos tech into a design? And it needn’t be a currently known Xenos species. Not only did the Great Crusade annihilate more than a few species, given mankind’s power during the Golden Age, it could be one long rendered extinct.
Abominable Intelligence seems to be a machine that is indistinguishable from a human mind.
So while a Machine Spirit might be able to fire guns or move a tank, it can't think for itself beyond simple tasks like "Kill" or "Retreat".
An Abominable Intelligence, like the one seen in Death of Integrity (a very good book, little boring but gets there in the end) is capable of emotions and free-thinking. A Techpriest might say a Machine Spirit has been angered but it would be more like a sophisticated error message, whereas the A.I. found in the novel experiences rage, hatred, fear, sadness, and friendship with its captain. Since an A.I. is essentially a sentient being it can be readily corrupted by any number of forces such as Chaos or Necrons.
On angering Machine Spirits, I wonder how much of that is Priestly shorthand to help get even the most primitive of Imperial Citizens to not mistreat their equipment, and maintain proper maintenance.
Consider how we adults offer super simplified explanations to kids - enough to get them on side, without boring or baffling them.
The incantations could well be there to deliberately slow the maintenance down, and focus the person on the task at hand. Again that’s not massively dissimilar to say, teaching a kid a song to sing, and to wash their hands until they’ve finished singing it.
Which in turn rather challenges some of my assumptions as to the actual level of ignorance among the Ad Mech.
Gert wrote: The Imperium has someSTC Machines/Blueprints. Not everything requires one and that's where a lot of generic stuff will come from. You wouldn't need an STC to make a spade or Hab Block, for example.
I agree not everything needs an STC but I bet lots of things are created by STC. Hab Blocks, as you said, probably to come from STC, that way any old pleb can build accommodation for people in a new settlement.
Well, there are absolutely STC Hab Blocks. But, that doesn’t mean all Hab Blocks are therefore products of STC designs.
Indeed, it’s entirely possible that whilst Colonists would start off using STC habitats, once things were better established, local designs would stand alongside them.
Certainly building an abode is relatively simple, compared to producing more complex mechanisms.
It likely would’ve varied depending on the world being settled. Death Worlds? FFS trust the STC! Earth like worlds with similar natural resources? Yeah once you have your initial settlement, you don’t need the STC
Automatically Appended Next Post: Slight tangent? A timely video from Townsends on the YouTube’s.
The STC is, in a sense, the ultimate manifestation of shared knowledge. And they were also the end of sharing knowledge, because the source was, theoretically, eternal.
I think the hab blocks would depend on what exactly you are building.
Initial colonisation - probably STC
Free standing houses or small blocks of flats once well established - as likely not STC
Massive skyscrapers, arcologies or the foundations of what would become hive cities - almost certainly STC. When you’re building on that sort of scale, particularly taken to 40k’s mind boggling levels, you’re going to want the certified designs and interoperability that STC gives you.
Yeah you could design your own to fit, but why would you when STC works out everything for you and you know it’ll be compatible with everything else?
Wouldn’t it be heresy to believe that you could improve on an STC design? If the STC provides habitats then surely that the best design humans can create, according to dogma. STC blueprints aren’t just useful they a religious gospel
Lord Zarkov wrote: I think the hab blocks would depend on what exactly you are building.
Initial colonisation - probably STC
Free standing houses or small blocks of flats once well established - as likely not STC
Massive skyscrapers, arcologies or the foundations of what would become hive cities - almost certainly STC. When you’re building on that sort of scale, particularly taken to 40k’s mind boggling levels, you’re going to want the certified designs and interoperability that STC gives you.
Yeah you could design your own to fit, but why would you when STC works out everything for you and you know it’ll be compatible with everything else?
Just because something is a blueprint doesn't mean it's an STC though.
Architects still exist in 40k and as we all know the Imperium loves its fancy buildings.
mrFickle wrote: Wouldn’t it be heresy to believe that you could improve on an STC design? If the STC provides habitats then surely that the best design humans can create, according to dogma. STC blueprints aren’t just useful they a religious gospel
In M41 yes, though the wealthy seem to commission loads of weird and wonderful architecture that may or not be fully STC (though most are probably at least STC skeleton and fittings with non-STC outer finish and flourishes).
At the time STCs were still being produced however they were presumably just very helpful rather than holy scripture.
Remember the Imperium has a LOT of rules - most of them get broken if you have enough income or are hidden away enough to not catch the attention of passing officials.
It's also clear that the Imperium is willing to adapt to superior technology. It might be more correct to say that the way the Imperiums rules operate regarding technology is in part built on a culture of ignorance, religion and fear.
They FEAR superior technology development. They fear it so much that there's a whole religion built around the only people who are supposed to advance it.
They keep it locked away - separate from society. Society is supposed ot maintain itself in almost a state of stasis - where its safe.
The Imperium is afraid of what technology can bring them and considering that it was advances in technology that brought about such things as the uprising of the Men of Iron and the whole issue with Chaos - then its not a bad thing to consider that the Imperium as a whole got burned by advancing tech and now seeks to avoid advance and where it must, it will be kicking and screaming to do it.
Lord Zarkov wrote: I think the hab blocks would depend on what exactly you are building.
Initial colonisation - probably STC
Free standing houses or small blocks of flats once well established - as likely not STC
Massive skyscrapers, arcologies or the foundations of what would become hive cities - almost certainly STC. When you’re building on that sort of scale, particularly taken to 40k’s mind boggling levels, you’re going to want the certified designs and interoperability that STC gives you.
Yeah you could design your own to fit, but why would you when STC works out everything for you and you know it’ll be compatible with everything else?
Just because something is a blueprint doesn't mean it's an STC though.
Architects still exist in 40k and as we all know the Imperium loves its fancy buildings.
For the fancy stuff yeah, there’s likely to be a lot of independent design, whether it’s just designing interesting ways to fit STC components together, or full on non-STC structures (though probably still incorporating many STC components since you’d want it to connect to everything else).
On the other end of the scale, stuff scratch built by gangs or in shanty towns etc are clearly not going to be built to STC blueprints, though again they’ll likely have a significant amount of salvaged STC pattern components for anything beyond basic building materials.
For generic worker hab block 1234ABC though, you’d just get your STC template out and build it and it’s many thousand fellows to the basic design because again, why would you not when you’re building on that scale?
Lord Zarkov wrote: I think the hab blocks would depend on what exactly you are building.
Initial colonisation - probably STC
Free standing houses or small blocks of flats once well established - as likely not STC
Massive skyscrapers, arcologies or the foundations of what would become hive cities - almost certainly STC. When you’re building on that sort of scale, particularly taken to 40k’s mind boggling levels, you’re going to want the certified designs and interoperability that STC gives you.
Yeah you could design your own to fit, but why would you when STC works out everything for you and you know it’ll be compatible with everything else?
I wouldn’t be quite so hasty here.
The Imperium itself has existed for 10,000 years, give or take. Sure, they’re adverse to new developments, but we can look back at what our species was building in a similar time span.
Building sturdy structures is kinda hard wired into us. Who knows how much trial and error went into that? Consider that those building and being horribly squished to death by a collapse end up all dead in the face until they’re not alive anymore.
So it would seem even skyscrapers, which we can build today with our relatively, by comparison, tools and technology are quite easily built in 40K.
Indeed, the existence of multiple Hive Worlds would seem to confirm that. Granted, their bottom most levels are indeed quite likely STC based. But the rest has been built time and time again, layer upon layer.
Their shape is particularly telling - if we consider that it seems entirely possible an STC could provide a how-to which would do away with the traditional “wide base, skinny pinnacle” design.
Lord Zarkov wrote: I think the hab blocks would depend on what exactly you are building.
Initial colonisation - probably STC
Free standing houses or small blocks of flats once well established - as likely not STC
Massive skyscrapers, arcologies or the foundations of what would become hive cities - almost certainly STC. When you’re building on that sort of scale, particularly taken to 40k’s mind boggling levels, you’re going to want the certified designs and interoperability that STC gives you.
Yeah you could design your own to fit, but why would you when STC works out everything for you and you know it’ll be compatible with everything else?
I wouldn’t be quite so hasty here.
The Imperium itself has existed for 10,000 years, give or take. Sure, they’re adverse to new developments, but we can look back at what our species was building in a similar time span.
Building sturdy structures is kinda hard wired into us. Who knows how much trial and error went into that? Consider that those building and being horribly squished to death by a collapse end up all dead in the face until they’re not alive anymore.
So it would seem even skyscrapers, which we can build today with our relatively, by comparison, tools and technology are quite easily built in 40K.
Indeed, the existence of multiple Hive Worlds would seem to confirm that. Granted, their bottom most levels are indeed quite likely STC based. But the rest has been built time and time again, layer upon layer.
Their shape is particularly telling - if we consider that it seems entirely possible an STC could provide a how-to which would do away with the traditional “wide base, skinny pinnacle” design.
I’d take the opposite lesson from hives tbh. Those things are mind bogglingly and impractically huge and yet not only do they (mostly) not collapse under their own weight but its myriad of systems somehow manage to mostly connect and talk to each other fairly well despite being built in some cases millennia apart (something we struggle with over mere decades).
Yeah they won’t just get out a blueprint for a complete hive, but all the structural components would be STC (at least on initial installation) and things like the core heat sink would definitely be. The whole point of the construct is that it is standard interchangeable building blocks that you can fit together and reuse reliably. That you would not use it building something that vast seems nuts.
Gert wrote: Well, proper Hives, i.e. not just big cities, are actually archeotech. The Imperium can build huge cities but IIRC can't build proper Hives.
Not from scratch I don’t think, but they definitely still add new bits to the top in Necromunda that have to interface with the rest of the hive. They also manage to keep fixing Armageddon’s hives.
Well, that would be the point. I can fix a car or put a spoiler on it (hypothetically) but I certainly couldn't build one. It's the same thing for the Imperium but with Hives.
Gert wrote: Well, proper Hives, i.e. not just big cities, are actually archeotech. The Imperium can build huge cities but IIRC can't build proper Hives.
Really, that’s very interesting, so the hives on necromunda might predate the great crusade and could be from Golden age?
They might lack some of the tech for the core structural elements, but they certainly keep building the components for a Hive. Necromunda highlights how the underhive is basically bits of the upper hive that collapse and get pushed "down". The middle and lower regions are basically a slow construction conveyor belt. Factories, biodomes, habitats and all eventually wear out and crumble at the base into the mess of the underhive.
It might be that the Imperium can build a Hive City; they just can't build a stable one that won't crumble or break or forever need repair work to remain viable.
Huh, I did a check on Lexicanum and apparently, Hive cities aren't archeotech. I had it in my mind that building a Hive was an almost impossible task which is why the Imperium always fought so hard to keep Hive Worlds over things like Agri Worlds.
TBF, the article has naff all references and doesn't even have an accepted source, so maybe I was right? Who knows.
Nobody specifically sets out to build a Hive City. Rather they form via millennia of constant building and rebuilding.
So the very bottom most levels absolutely are archaeotech. Indeed it’s often believed the original colonial fleets may will form the earliest buildings.
But they’re still being added to and repaired up to the modern day, so the upper most levels and external surfaces will be fairly modern.
It is certainly possible that the materials needed to Build High For Happiness come from STC designs though, even if the final assembly is made from actual knowledge?
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, yeah. Pretty much any modern day Old World city will have the same.
London in particular continually turns up archaeology from Roman times, and possibly even earlier settlements.
I remember that Double Eagle references a town a few millennia old that’s only a few centuries older than a hive on the same world. I could well be misremembering.
Hive cities seem to be the kind of thing you really do want to plan… tall buildings are really complicated and can fall over quite easily, especially if there is constant internecine warfare between residents using exotic high energy weapons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have just had a comparison jump into my head, that I’m not too sure how well it works, but I’ll go for it anyway.
Using the Parthenon as the foundation for a new Burj Kalifa does not seem like a good idea.
DalekCheese wrote: I remember that Double Eagle references a town a few millennia old that’s only a few centuries older than a hive on the same world. I could well be misremembering.
Cant remember if your right or wrong, but age and size of the town are not directly related. New York, for example, has a population of between 8-20 million (depending on what you count as "New York", and where you choose to draw the dividing lines in a semi-continuous urban sprawl), but is over a millennium and a half younger than its namesake city of York, England, which has only 200,000 residents (York was founded in 71AD by the romans, New York in 1624 by the Dutch). It can largely be a matter of the patterns of civilisation, supporting infrastructure, relative momentum, etc that can leave two settlements that are seemingly very close to one another at their start states grow in radically different ways.
DalekCheese wrote: I remember that Double Eagle references a town a few millennia old that’s only a few centuries older than a hive on the same world. I could well be misremembering.
Cant remember if your right or wrong, but age and size of the town are not directly related. New York, for example, has a population of between 8-20 million (depending on what you count as "New York", and where you choose to draw the dividing lines in a semi-continuous urban sprawl), but is over a millennium and a half younger than its namesake city of York, England, which has only 200,000 residents (York was founded in 71AD by the romans, New York in 1624 by the Dutch). It can largely be a matter of the patterns of civilisation, supporting infrastructure, relative momentum, etc that can leave two settlements that are seemingly very close to one another at their start states grow in radically different ways.
Yes, but the relative ages are (IIRC) specifically stated, and one is known to be a hive- so it must have been built during the age of the Imperium.
Racerguy180 wrote: But if the Parthenon was structurally superior to every other building type it would make sense.
But nothing about 40k is supposed to make sense....at least to a rational human being.
Either you ask the STC for a low rise building and it spits out a on efficient plan for such, or you ask it for A building that can be factored into a hive in the future, at which point the hive is already planned… and your low rise building has a foundation that reaches A km or so into the ground…
The idea that you can just keep building stuff on top of other stuff until you have a 20km high hive just doesn’t work.
