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Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 17:59:16


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


How do!

So in a very similar vein to my thread about how Eldar have seemingly almost always got the poopy end of the stick, Chaos is in desperate need of some love.

Right now, it’s just not feeling especially Chaotic. Now, for absolute clarity? I do not currently play Chaos. Yes I did play Chaos during then 3.5 era. No I am not advocating for anything like a Codex as genuinely overpowered as the 3.5 version. Nor do I think it’s reasonable to expect the absolute perfection for a long time player that was Imperial Armour 13. That was a crazy volume for Lost & Damned. So many options, once you read it (and especially the background) you were best off deciding on a theme, then selecting your units.

But Chaos in mainstream 40K? It’s just so….boring. It’s too organised. Not enough bizarreness. Not enough freedom of list building. Background wise, the forces of Chaos are described as Warbands. Literal cults of personality, with underlings/aspirants following a Warlord. Instead, we get a sort of “we are still Legions, we are!!!!

It’s just not doing them any service. Like, at all. Perhaps appropriately, as a tabletop force they feel like they’ve lost their soul.

Now, the aesthetic and just models wise I’m presently quite happy with them. But again I’m not a Chaos player, so treat that accordingly.

I’d rather see them be a bit more character heavy. Not necessarily Hero Hammer in terms of raw tabletop power, but perhaps a greater variety of squad leaders. I feel that might go some way to adding variety, and better represent their background feel.

Example? Main CSM Codex? If I’m picking a Cult Unit (so Rubric, Bereserkers and so on), let me have a choice of unit champions. Perhaps an Aspirant suits my plans just fine. Maybe I’d want them to be an Exalted Champion leading their most loyal/fanatical/snotty/bonkers followers. And let me have options for their particular war gear. Perhaps even link the unit’s options to their particular standing. After all, someone clearly In Favour with the Powers That Be are successful, so we can reasonably expect their followers to be better equipped as they persuade/strong arm/outright murder their way to better equipment/

And for goodness (badness?) sake? Let my Veterans of the Long War (as in extant survivors of the Heresy era) feel like it. Beyond a single buffed stat. They’re Astartes with centuries if not millennia of experience. They should be super handy in a fight. But don’t introduce them whilst ditching bog standard CSM, because there will always be relatively newer turncoats in the fold.

Give me mutations back. Not simply Possessed. But squads demonstrating useful mutations.

Give me the option of a full on Jamboree of Horror Chaos back - as a valid option alongside plainer variations, Cultists and Daemons.

Now? Balancing this within the Codex? Don’t look at me. But if it can be done? Knowing you’re up against a Chaos force will mean something again, as what Bob, Baz, Dave and Daz might field as Chaos players could be wildly different.

Just…..make Chaos properly Chaotic again.

Please.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 18:07:33


Post by: Grimtuff


Great MDG, now my neck is sore from agreeing so much.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 18:35:01


Post by: Voss


I’d rather see them be a bit more character heavy. Not necessarily Hero Hammer in terms of raw tabletop power, but perhaps a greater variety of squad leaders. I feel that might go some way to adding variety, and better represent their background feel.

Eh. Don't really agree with this. They've gotten a lot of... really random subleaders in recent years, but for the most part they're walking around on foot in power armor or are (randomly) legion specific special characters, or specifically focused on the daemon engine aspect of the army (which isn't legions or renegades).

(And of course nurgle and tzeentch double down on the really random lieutenant characters, but that's neither here nor there for the main chaos codex).

Personally, I'd like to see them do something with the really tattered elite slot (which on the US website is: possessed, helbrutes, berserkers and the awful mutilators; plus some random death guard single models, the SE noise marine single character and the dark angel command squad, complete with assault cannon, terminator legs and various ravenwing pieces among the various bits and bobs).

At this point, I think the focus should be more chaos UNITS and less Codex marine squad equivalents (but with fewer options and spikes) would be welcome. Revamp the elite and fast attack sections particularly, and decide if cultists are a mainstay of the army or do a dedicated chaos uprising army.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 18:42:25


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Where certain options should fall within Force Organisation is definitely a good bit of the discussion. But not being a present Chaos player not something I feel I should weigh in on.

But I still stand by letting Chaos players have an option of squad leader back


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 18:47:54


Post by: Voss


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Where certain options should fall within Force Organisation is definitely a good bit of the discussion. But not being a present Chaos player not something I feel I should weigh in on.

But I still stand by letting Chaos players have an option of squad leader back


Well part of it is simply that I'm tired of GW papering over problems with $35+ single models rather than doing new _units_ that actually fill a role in the codex. Its lazy and cheap (for them) but expensive and inevitably a FOMO race for us.
I just refuse, and I'm tired of seeing the wasted release space on such things.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 18:50:14


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


I think GW is a little clueless what to do with Chaos. Fluffwize you could give every Legion a supplement like the loyalists got, even additional ones for Red Corsairs and Biles Creations and named Renegades. But they aren't (loyal) Space Marines so they don't sell as much.
You could go the 3.5 approach and make the Codex a tool Box to build what you like. But GWs doesn't work that way anymore because no models, no rules. So since 4th edition really we're left with a strange hodgepodge of SM with spikes, Daemon engines, monopose Cultists, Daemons not allying with CSM, rules in every campaign for some minor faction like Fabius, Fallen or Belakors Followers, but nothing fits together, really. You can do a proper Black Legion, Word Bearers and Iron Warriors with what GW presents you (also DG and TS). Everything else needs a lot of imagination and conversion work. And that's before talking about competitiveness.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 18:53:25


Post by: Dudeface


Probably in the minority but as a red corsairs player, gimme some proper renegade rules. Varkesh's unit over there? They were part of the void knights 6 terrain months ago, why does their razorback not work now? Why is venerable brother Chendar now suddenly a fleshy trash can rather than a regular toaster whose assault cannon popped away.

I'd happily lose some of the god specific units and some daemon related units in return for taking in some of those firstborn marines they can't rehome.

There is room for a mid ground and once that is populated, then you have full artistic license to go nuts on the crazy mind bending stuff for the legions in a different book.

Edit: also, make chaos marks do something again!


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 19:10:59


Post by: Racerguy180


Grotsnik's making waaayyyyy too much sense for it to work in GW's current business model.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 19:25:06


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Racerguy180 wrote:
Grotsnik's making waaayyyyy too much sense for it to work in GW's current business model.


Quiet you!

I think you’ll find many of my threads have proven curiously prescient! From the new Liber Xenologies book to Plushies!

All hail me! I are grate!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Probably in the minority but as a red corsairs player, gimme some proper renegade rules. Varkesh's unit over there? They were part of the void knights 6 terrain months ago, why does their razorback not work now? Why is venerable brother Chendar now suddenly a fleshy trash can rather than a regular toaster whose assault cannon popped away.

I'd happily lose some of the god specific units and some daemon related units in return for taking in some of those firstborn marines they can't rehome.

There is room for a mid ground and once that is populated, then you have full artistic license to go nuts on the crazy mind bending stuff for the legions in a different book.

Edit: also, make chaos marks do something again!


This could be an option. Certainly it’s in the same vein as IA:13.

You want a relatively recent Traitor force? Cool. You get new toys, but are excluded from things such as Veterans and Their Toys. Because as much as IA:13 was all about wide ranging choices? When it came to actually forging an army it was about sacrificing stuff for your preference.

My words genuinely aren’t enough to praise IA:13


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 19:37:57


Post by: Da Boss


It's weird because all the pieces are there to make a good chaos force, and they've actually made a fair few new units, but somehow they seem to miss the mark each time. Seems like a lack of interest from the game designers more than anything else.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 19:41:24


Post by: Kanluwen


 Da Boss wrote:
It's weird because all the pieces are there to make a good chaos force, and they've actually made a fair few new units, but somehow they seem to miss the mark each time. Seems like a lack of interest from the game designers more than anything else.

Scuttlebutt is that it's less "lack of interest" and more "conflicting interests". Some want to go Legion route, some want Renegades, all have their own vision.

Same thing is apparently happening with Guard.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 19:44:34


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Criticism fair.

Suggestions and Wishlist betterer!


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 20:01:56


Post by: Da Boss


Well, I don't think any codex has ever topped the 3.5 one. If you'd tweaked Iron Warriors and Daemonbomb armies, that book worked near perfectly to represent all legions and renegades really well. Add cultists and modern daemon engines and you'd have a great book. It's hard to get right because you're trying to do the dark mirror of the Imperium in one or two books when they get multiple space marine books and then full codices for the other factions as well. So a chaos player will always feel hard done by, but I think 3.5 came the closest to nailing it so far so we should stick with that as the model and just work on the balance issues, which are solveable in my view.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 20:20:54


Post by: Not Online!!!


* cries in absolute state of renegades and heretics...


I'd Like my army back... Please!


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 20:28:11


Post by: Yarium


Yeah, the Chaos umbrella is huge. There's so many permutations of what they COULD be. But so long as they keep trying to force that into such few books, you're left with tastes of different codexes with a hope of trying to put them together. A taste of Chaos Renegades with Cultists. A taste of Daemon-forges with the Daemon Engines. A taste of psychopaths with Berzerkers. A taste of stolid siege masters with some Forge World Chaos Dreadnoughts.

A taste of everything, but never a meal.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 21:01:59


Post by: xerxeskingofking


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
It's weird because all the pieces are there to make a good chaos force, and they've actually made a fair few new units, but somehow they seem to miss the mark each time. Seems like a lack of interest from the game designers more than anything else.

Scuttlebutt is that it's less "lack of interest" and more "conflicting interests". Some want to go Legion route, some want Renegades, all have their own vision.

Same thing is apparently happening with Guard.



i think this is the heart of the problem for codex: CSM. its trying to be too many things at once.

far more so than the loyalists, the traitor legions are wildly divergent in how they are structured and operate in the lore. we have several, almost polar opposites within us, form those that worship chaos, to those that use it as a tool, those that focus on tactical tricks and confusion to those that eschew all subtlety in favour of raw violence, those that worship all the the gods to those to worship just one to those that worship no god.

its just too broad a umbrella to fit under a single book. it was done in 3.5, but arguably that only worked because the standards for sub factions in 3.5 were very minimal, and IIRC this was the basically the 1st time they'd made any meaningful rules distinctions for most of the undivided legions, as opposed to just being snazzy alternate paint jobs for a generic "chaos marine" list.


it also doesnt help that thier are several different takes on what a CSM army SHOULD be like, with some prefering the vets of the Long War angle, wanting their CSM to be survivors of the Heresy, still toting their advanced 30K equipment and out to wreck revenge for that loss, while others prefer to push the demonic angle, with lots of deamon engines taking the place of imperial equipment. Others still like the Renegades angle of them being mostly recent or post heresy traitors, aligned with chaos to further their own goals.


I really dont know how youd square the circle here and reconcile this contradictory viewpoints, they pretty much have to come down and declare one version as the correct one and stick with it.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 21:03:12


Post by: Gert


I didn't start CSM until 6th and while the Codex lacked many things, I think it did well in some aspects.
The Boon Table, while 66 options long, was fun IMO. Killing an enemy Character then getting something from an extra Attack to flat out ascending to Daemon Prince was great fun and to me felt like combat and challenges especially had a sense of achievement or urgency. An Aspiring Champion killing a Guardsman Sergeant and attaining Daemonhood, then a Chaos Lord killing the enemy Warlord and only getting +1 Attack was always funny IMO. I also loved the Warp Storm table from the Daemon Codex. Both portrayed the fickle and cruel nature of being a servant of the Dark Gods really well.
Marks were fun and useful, although considering some cases (Nurgle Bikes/Biker Lords), I can understand why they were changed.
Traitor Legions was great. Loved it. More of that please but in a normal Codex.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 21:18:43


Post by: ccs


Spoiler:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!

So in a very similar vein to my thread about how Eldar have seemingly almost always got the poopy end of the stick, Chaos is in desperate need of some love.

Right now, it’s just not feeling especially Chaotic. Now, for absolute clarity? I do not currently play Chaos. Yes I did play Chaos during then 3.5 era. No I am not advocating for anything like a Codex as genuinely overpowered as the 3.5 version. Nor do I think it’s reasonable to expect the absolute perfection for a long time player that was Imperial Armour 13. That was a crazy volume for Lost & Damned. So many options, once you read it (and especially the background) you were best off deciding on a theme, then selecting your units.

But Chaos in mainstream 40K? It’s just so….boring. It’s too organised. Not enough bizarreness. Not enough freedom of list building. Background wise, the forces of Chaos are described as Warbands. Literal cults of personality, with underlings/aspirants following a Warlord. Instead, we get a sort of “we are still Legions, we are!!!!

It’s just not doing them any service. Like, at all. Perhaps appropriately, as a tabletop force they feel like they’ve lost their soul.

Now, the aesthetic and just models wise I’m presently quite happy with them. But again I’m not a Chaos player, so treat that accordingly.

I’d rather see them be a bit more character heavy. Not necessarily Hero Hammer in terms of raw tabletop power, but perhaps a greater variety of squad leaders. I feel that might go some way to adding variety, and better represent their background feel.

Example? Main CSM Codex? If I’m picking a Cult Unit (so Rubric, Bereserkers and so on), let me have a choice of unit champions. Perhaps an Aspirant suits my plans just fine. Maybe I’d want them to be an Exalted Champion leading their most loyal/fanatical/snotty/bonkers followers. And let me have options for their particular war gear. Perhaps even link the unit’s options to their particular standing. After all, someone clearly In Favour with the Powers That Be are successful, so we can reasonably expect their followers to be better equipped as they persuade/strong arm/outright murder their way to better equipment/

And for goodness (badness?) sake? Let my Veterans of the Long War (as in extant survivors of the Heresy era) feel like it. Beyond a single buffed stat. They’re Astartes with centuries if not millennia of experience. They should be super handy in a fight. But don’t introduce them whilst ditching bog standard CSM, because there will always be relatively newer turncoats in the fold.

Give me mutations back. Not simply Possessed. But squads demonstrating useful mutations.

Give me the option of a full on Jamboree of Horror Chaos back - as a valid option alongside plainer variations, Cultists and Daemons.

Now? Balancing this within the Codex? Don’t look at me. But if it can be done? Knowing you’re up against a Chaos force will mean something again, as what Bob, Baz, Dave and Daz might field as Chaos players could be wildly different.

Just…..make Chaos properly Chaotic again.

Please.


I'm going to go out on a limb here & predict you'll be disapointed.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/07 22:08:00


Post by: Marshal Loss


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just…..make Chaos properly Chaotic again.

Please.


This is a fine line to walk, and one most CSM fans are wary of. We've received innumerable "chaotic" rules options in the past that more often than not end up just screwing us over. The pros rarely outweigh the cons. In recent years GW have firmly stepped back from granularity, so I don't think many of the desires in the OP are realistic. Rules bloat is bad enough as is, I'd rather they just concentrate on getting the important bits right (god-specific marks, etc) that help to make us what we are. There's simply no way the Chaos we know and love in the lore could ever be fully represented without a veritable library of books to back it up. Once you start adding in weird stuff, where do you stop? No faction is as hard to nail down as we are, and 9th has enough moving parts as is.

I don't think Chaos (CSM, at least) actually need a lot of work. Feels to me like we're closer to having a good codex now than at any point since 3.5. The F&F rules, for example, are strong, fun and flavourful. DG and TS have solid and thematic books of their own. World Eaters are apparently on the horizon, and the Emperor's Children will surely follow at some point. Maybe LATD/R&H will get something in the future (reliable rumours certainly indicate a lot of cultist-type units in the next CSM book), maybe the Dark Mechanicum will get something in the future. Who knows. It's not perfect (give me my fething daemons back, GW) but it's still very close to being something I can unreservedly enjoy.

What we need is, for the first time in nearly 20 years, GW to release a codex for CSM which can stand on its own two feet without needing addition after addition after addition to replicate the kind of flavour we had in 3.5. We know they can (occasionally) write good rules for CSM: 7th's Traitor Legions & 8th's Faith & Fury show that. Give us a good book rather than a gakky book with a good bandage rapped around it.

My own wishlisting/desires for the short-mid-term, which I sincerely hope are all realistic:

*WE & EC to get split off into their own books
*Marks to mean something (make e.g. a Nurgle-aligned CSM army feel like a Nurgle-aligned CSM army)
*Bring back Daemonic Upgrades for characters, so we can depict how far along the Path to Glory they are
*Bring back Veteran Abilities as a kind of paid upgrade system

Combined with what we already know we're getting from statline changes to marines & daemon engines, and some kind of decent monofaction bonus, and I'd be very happy with the above. I just hope that GW doesn't screw it up.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 00:49:40


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Yeah, CSM needs some sort of work. But they probably need a better vision for CSM. Right now, its just a chaotic mess of trying to be everything and succeeding at doing nothing well. They basically end up as inferior space marines in every way.

Splitting off into the cult marine books is a step in the right direction. Tsons and Deathguard are flavorful. I picked up both armies and am having fun with them.

But this means that the generic CSM codex needs a better vision. For a time, I thought demon engines were the way to go. But vehicle spam itself seems like a very skewed way to play the list, and it hardly represents the CSM faction. At most Demon Engines should only be a part of the CSM identity if they really want to create that distinction and flavor.

I think the weapons a CSM army uses on its infantry are a missed opportunity. GW could have given CSM unique special weapons that come with a new model range. Fluff wise, it would fit so well. Their weapons have been warped by Chaos, so they are now totally different. You can either use a bolter, or you can use a mutated bolter that shoots str 4, AP 1 shots that does an additional hit on 6s or something for +1 point.

Then release a new box of CSM marines that use the new mutated bolters. Bam, suddenly, every CSM player wants to buy new CSM marines. Instead, CSM marines have been using bolters for decades... Not even sure why ... are they so worried that loyalist marine players will cry about bolters ?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 00:57:07


Post by: Gadzilla666


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Where certain options should fall within Force Organisation is definitely a good bit of the discussion. But not being a present Chaos player not something I feel I should weigh in on.

But I still stand by letting Chaos players have an option of squad leader back

Are you talking about making Aspiring Champions more than just +1 attack and +1 leadership? Would something like Death Guard's Deadly Pathogens and Thousand Sons Legion Command work for that? Something that allows you to make a squads Champion more than just a slightly better version of their squad mates? I expect us to get something similar to these. We'll call them "Abilities for Veterans" for now.

xerxeskingofking wrote:it also doesnt help that thier are several different takes on what a CSM army SHOULD be like, with some prefering the vets of the Long War angle, wanting their CSM to be survivors of the Heresy, still toting their advanced 30K equipment and out to wreck revenge for that loss, while others prefer to push the demonic angle, with lots of deamon engines taking the place of imperial equipment. Others still like the Renegades angle of them being mostly recent or post heresy traitors, aligned with chaos to further their own goals.

I don't see how doing all of these is difficult. For veterans of the Heresy, just remove the silly Martial Legacy rule from the Legions, so that they can use Heresy era units more freely than loyalists. For daemon engine heavy armies, just make a couple more daemon engines that fill other roles than punchy/shooty daemon engine. Renegades is a little harder. Maybe something like GSC's Broodbrothers rule, that allows Renegades to take some Loyalist equipment in exchange for not being able to take some CSM stuff?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 01:38:31


Post by: drbored


Chaos Space Marines are lacking from several angles, and none of them are going to be resolved quickly.

First off, we have at the moment 4 Codexes, 2 of which have established a pattern that needs to be completed, one of which just needs to be brought in line with 9th edition, and one that is woefully bad from multiple angles, both fluff and power wise.

Death Guard and Thousand Sons established the pattern. We need Emperor's Children and World Eaters. These just need to happen, in much the same way that Age of Sigmar runs the gamut from Disciples of Tzeentch to Hedonites of Slaanesh, we need to complete that list on the 40k side, even if just to complete the collection.

The Chaos Daemons codex isn't awful, it just needs the 9th edition treatment and a handful of resin things updated to plastic.

The standard Chaos Space Marine Codex is a mish-mash. CSM got 2 Codexes in 8th edition, just so they could sell us one at the start and then another when Shadowspear and Vigilus came out. There are rules across Vigilus and Psychic Awakening that should just BE in the Codex, and then there's the fact that we still don't have an update to 2 wounds, despite there being a method to do that: FAQs and Chapter Approved, but GW can't be arsed to do it. Not to mention that despite many opportunities, some of the Legion traits are simply horribly underpowered, and even stratagems can't make them good. They've also been forced to squeeze in stuff for Emperor's Children and World Eaters that should have been moved into their own codexes and fleshed out by now. So on a rules standpoint, CSM are just... a mish-mash.

The model range is also a mish-mash, with some great winners, but some absolute losers that should have been updated years ago. Setting aside Noise Marines and Khorne Berzerkers, our HQ units are a mix, some resin, some 15 year old plastic, some modern plastic. The Warpsmith is still on a 25mm base, ffs. Now, yes, there are rumors that we're finally getting some new units coming in 2022, but the rumored units still don't cover what we need. Here's the list of outdated units, still available on the website:

Lucius the Eternal - Resin
Noise Marines - not even a full unit, just a lumpy resin upgrade kit
Huron Blackheart - Resin
Khorne Berzerkers - I think they're approaching 30 years old?
Warpsmith - A fine resin kit, but still on a 25mm base
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack - Resin and with a horribly outdated design scheme
Chaos Terminator Lord/Sorcerer - Plastic, but as old as the previous Terminator kit, with all the same design flaws
Possessed - Barely holding in there
Bikers - an ancient kit that shows a multitude of gaping flaws. You need green stuff to fill some of the gaps in the design, despite being plastic.
Chaos Spawn - Not the worst kit out there, but rapidly showing its age
Mutilators - A tragedy of a unit. Awful design, resin, redundant role on the table
Nurgle Daemon Prince - I honestly don't know why they still sell this
Defiler - It's the Defiler
All of the Space Marine Vehicles with a Spikey Sprue - Please GW, please update the rhino frame.
Chaos Lord - Our only modern chaos lord option and it's a leftover from Blackstone Fortress with zero options

MIA units:
Chosen - rumored to be coming, but wow.
Cultists - Only option is the Blackstone Fortress ones, and they don't even fit the rules without buying multiple boxes of the same push-fit models.
Obliterators - Only available in Start Collecting, zero options
Venomcrawler - Only available in Start Collecting, zero options
Greater Possessed - Only available in Start Collecting, zero options
Master of Possession - Only available in Start Collecting, zero options

So not only do you have a bunch of ancient kits that need updating, you also have a run of units that are straight up missing or stuck behind a monopose Start Collecting, which is particularly frustrating.

Then you have the lore standpoint. Even splitting the galaxy in half, Chaos has never had the limelight. Vigilus was all about Calgar outwitting Abaddon. Psychic Awakening has chaos running rampant but only as a footnote antagonist. If it's not Death Guard, Thousand Sons, or Black Legion, it's pretty much MIA. I'm not the biggest lore buff, so I'm sure there's little side panels and snippets about the Night Lords and Iron Warriors fighting here and there, but when was the last time they took center stage?

Subpar lore that makes Chaos Marines feel like an unthreatening footnote, rules that don't reflect their Chaotic aspect and that still haven't been updated to modern types meaning only a handful of builds work and you're still obligated to use Slaanesh Obliterators (which only come in sets of 2 out of the Start Collecting) if you care to be competitive, and models that are a horrible mish-mash of ancient outdated designs and modern no-option kits.

Let me ask, Games Workshop, if YOU don't care about your premier 'bad guy', why are your fans supposed to care?

The fixes, unfortunately, are just going to take a LONG TIME, and all that time we're just going to be in this limbo. We've already been waiting a long time for a lot of things. Chaos and Eldar have that in common, but at least Eldar can still run competitive lists.

GW needs to start by getting kits out and updated. They did it with Orks, they did it with Sisters of Battle, they can do it with Chaos Marines. New Possessed, Bikers, Chosen, and Warpsmith like the rumors say is a start, but it's not enough. We need to get a proper Obliterator kit at the VERY LEAST. A kit of 3 of them with at least a couple arm or head swaps would go a LONG way. Get the Cultists out, update Huron Blackheart, the Chaos Lord in Terminator armor, and the Jump Pack lord. Make up your mind if you want to keep Mutilators, and if you keep them, don't do them dirty like you did Obliterators. Give them a 3-pack kit with a few options.

Get all the space marine vehicles with spikes updated. A new (older style) rhino frame would be a good start, just like you did with the Sisters of Battle Castigator and other stuff. And then, for feths sake, get the Emperor's Children and World Eaters out into the world. I know you want to make the primarch releases feel 'special' but the opposite is happening. The Chaos Primarchs don't feel special at all, they feel like a chore to play with and against, and not everyone even wants a primarch. Some people just want new Khorne Berzerkers and Noise Marines.

And for the love of god, when you change the wounds, toughness, or other key stats of space marines, don't let Chaos Marines lag behind for over a year.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 03:44:13


Post by: H.B.M.C.


"Today we're announcing a great new Combat Patrol box with 5 brand new Possessed, 20 new Cultists, a new Chaos Lord in Power Armour and a Chaos Rhino. Sadly, everything except the Rhino is pushfit. Enjoy!"


Be careful what you wish for...



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 04:18:26


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


I am incredibly excited for new sculpts, same rules, these are the things that drive the enthusiasm of the CSM community.

Chaos, after all, is not about change.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 04:20:22


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I am incredibly excited for new sculpts, same rules, these are the things that drive the enthusiasm of the CSM community.

Chaos, after all, is not about change.


What? When there is a greater chao god called Tzeentch that is all about Change ? lol


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 04:49:23


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Today we're announcing a great new Combat Patrol box with 5 brand new Possessed, 20 new Cultists, a new Chaos Lord in Power Armour and a Chaos Rhino. Sadly, everything except the Rhino is pushfit. Enjoy!"


Be careful what you wish for...



Indeed. Please leave the Terminator Lord/ sorcerer alone, it's still the best HQ kit GW has created. They never got that quality again and used the Material properly that one time.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 04:54:17


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Indeed. Please leave the Terminator Lord/ sorcerer alone, it's still the best HQ kit GW has created. They never got that quality again and used the Material properly that one time.


I was expecting a new Ahriman sculpt of him riding his staff like a pogo stick for the TS codex, this edition is dead to me.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 04:57:55


Post by: Table


My predictions as a 14 year long chaos player ( I am still a noob compared to the OG chaos vets ) are as follows.

Lose the one or two OP traits we have currently and replaced with nothing even close to being on par.

More new models while ancient ones still remain un updated. Bezerks, I am looking at you.

The classic nerf/buffing to make some units more sales attractive than others.

A new and *improved* Boons table.

And here is the kicker. Chaos Marines will stay at one wound. Why? GW has had a year to update CM with a 2 wound profile. They have not. No company is so lazy as to not update them......because.....lazy. Nope. There a reason. And this is it.

Now I hope I am wrong. I really really do. But I do not think I will be. Here is hoping.

Also, chaos renegades and chaos legions need two codexs for all the reasons previously mentioned.

Chaos Renegades should keep much of their imperial load out, lose some of the rarer and harder to support options and have a splash of chaotic demon stuff to make up for the loss of rarer equipment. I would love to see a scaling table that tells you how old your renegade warband is and how outdated your tech will be and how much demon funk you get. Of course this wont happen, ever.

The real problem, as I see it, is that Chaos lost its identity with the no model no rules age. It was faction that thrived on kit bashing. GW could not produce enough options so left it up to the players. And that was glorious. Now its a boring hodgepodge of starter kits and horribly dated models.

Once more. I do hope I am being overtly negative. But GW had 14 years to drive me to this state. I started as a young spawnling with bright eyes and love. Now, my chaos forces have been in the closet since the start of 8th with the exception of 1ksons which I shelved 7 months ago.

TLDR. More options. Split legions and Renegades. Redo old models. Stop adding. Start fixing. We do not need Demon Engine #12 and yet another HQ.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 05:22:20


Post by: Waaaghbert


Table wrote:
[...]

TLDR. More options. Split legions and Renegades. Redo old models. Stop adding. Start fixing. We do not need Demon Engine #12 and yet another HQ.


This! So much this! Go away with meaningless additions! Also, if you can have red bloody melee Marines and grey wolfy melee Marines and soon black pious melee Marines, why can't you have two "undivided" Chaos books, one for legions one for renegades.



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 06:09:47


Post by: Dudeface


Waaaghbert wrote:
Table wrote:
[...]

TLDR. More options. Split legions and Renegades. Redo old models. Stop adding. Start fixing. We do not need Demon Engine #12 and yet another HQ.


This! So much this! Go away with meaningless additions! Also, if you can have red bloody melee Marines and grey wolfy melee Marines and soon black pious melee Marines, why can't you have two "undivided" Chaos books, one for legions one for renegades.



Call me either mad or a visionary, but you could do renegades with a supplement. It would need to reference some units from both codex chaos marines and codex space marines and cause rage for it, but it's the simplest method.

Replace faction keywords for all units with blah, imagine a fast attack with see codex marines for land speeders and assault marines then reference chaos space marines for spawn and bikes for example.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 06:14:33


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I just don't think they'd do it.

They wouldn't do a "Renegade Razorback" because GW don't sell a "Renegade Razorback".



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 07:10:09


Post by: Eldarain


"It's too difficult to capture the variations of the Chaos forces"

Publishes a 12 volume set of books for a faction with far less divergence.

Endlessly annoying.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 07:31:38


Post by: mrFickle


We’ve been promised a bumper year for chaos in 2022. If they have saved all the chaos releases for the same year then fingers crossed it’s something good.

If it’s primaris with spikes then I’ll be upset


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 08:27:33


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


So here’s an idea. As ever, I do not claim it to actually be a Good Idea.

Let every Legion have its own Codex, just as the Loyalist Primogenitor Chapters have theirs.

Black Legion and more recent Traitors have a separate book.

Lost and the Damned has a separate book, which covers all the other traitorous forces (including Dark Mechanicum, who really need a better name).

However, each book has a common rule, allowing you, if you wish, to create hybrid armies without the normal loss of efficiency. Like being able to take a second formation without losing CP? Perhaps not a specialist formation?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 08:45:21


Post by: Dysartes


You think individual full 'dexes for the non-Cult Legions, Doc, rather than a core 'dex and Supplements?

Wouldn't argue with a cross-book supplement for Renegades, as long as it wasn't just "here's the full Proper Space Marine line with Spikes, plus some of the Chaos stuff".

Traitor Guard/LatD and Dark Mech should probably be individual books, rather than combined into one.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 08:45:33


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Eldarain wrote:
"It's too difficult to capture the variations of the Chaos forces"

Publishes a 12 volume set of books for a faction with far less divergence.

Endlessly annoying.


Meanwhile IA 13 allowed you to create all chaos non astartes forces with a bit of imagination and customizability...

And yet here we are having what feels like 1 million astartes codices whilest Gw couldn't muster the strength to just update the IA13 list into 8/ 9th edition, which btw due to the design already inherent in those lists (aka traits and further specialisation unlocked through specific "colour" choices) didn't happen.
Instead we got now a legend ruleset so abismal that it's version of the apocalypse ruleset is better somehow, and makes IG and GSC in their disfunctional and or Boring to hell state look like positively magnificent rulesets for these factions.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dysartes wrote:
You think individual full 'dexes for the non-Cult Legions, Doc, rather than a core 'dex and Supplements?

Wouldn't argue with a cross-book supplement for Renegades, as long as it wasn't just "here's the full Proper Space Marine line with Spikes, plus some of the Chaos stuff".

Traitor Guard/LatD and Dark Mech should probably be individual books, rather than combined into one.


Again, why bother splitting up when you could achieve that (and HAS already been done well btw) in one "dex"?



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 08:52:27


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Dysartes wrote:
You think individual full 'dexes for the non-Cult Legions, Doc, rather than a core 'dex and Supplements?

Wouldn't argue with a cross-book supplement for Renegades, as long as it wasn't just "here's the full Proper Space Marine line with Spikes, plus some of the Chaos stuff".

Traitor Guard/LatD and Dark Mech should probably be individual books, rather than combined into one.


I dunno on the non-Cult legions. I feel like that’s best covered in a relatively vanilla CSM Codex, but with extra stuff to lean into Word Bearers etc? The 3.5 Codex covered them pretty well - if kind of unevenly in terms of their potency.

The core SM book is a pretty hefty volume in terms of unit count alone, so I don’t see much of a reason as to why CSM couldn’t follow suit. Plus, we now have Keywords to play with, which can open up interesting synergies and limits there on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess there needs to be options to satisfy all.

To me, Chaos is most fun when they’re Cults of Personality. Various warbands or differing sizes pitching in together, the Champions trying to out do each other. The game needs to reflect this.

To others, Chaos is most fun when it’s Legion remnants - elements of the original Legions who have stuck together, maintaining a more traditional military structure. The game needs to reflect this, too.

And other variations in between.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 09:04:49


Post by: Dudeface


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I just don't think they'd do it.

They wouldn't do a "Renegade Razorback" because GW don't sell a "Renegade Razorback".



It'd be a "space marine razorback" as it is now, just referenced in a supplement. Same way they don't make a space wolves razorback or blood angels razorback.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 09:27:11


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Dudeface wrote:
It'd be a "space marine razorback" as it is now, just referenced in a supplement. Same way they don't make a space wolves razorback or blood angels razorback.
Those units are derived from the Space Marine Codex, so they kinda do.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 10:00:21


Post by: Da Boss


I think another part of the problem is trying to represent even the diversity within the CSM with too little in the way of rules.

Really, there are 3 subclasses of CSM, each with their own veteran and hero units potentially.
You've got the OG Traitor Legions, the Veterans of the Long War. It should be possible to make a Legion army with their own line CSM and elite units. They should have access to mostly pre-heresy tech and have better stats than the average Imperial Space Marine.
Then you've got recent renegades. They should have similar stats to the Imperials and similar equipment, but some variation to represent their shift of allegience. Then they should also have access to veterans, just like the normal space marines do.
Lastly, you've got the rapidly and roughly raised Aspirants. These guys should be the ones who are weaker than Imperial Space Marines, and cheaper. The Scout paradigm is not a bad one for these guys, though they seem to all use power armour rather than scout armour. But you could justify worse armour stats if you wanted by making their suits the most battered and patched together, barely functional.

At the moment, you've only really got access to Chosen, who might be any kind of Chaos Veteran, or CSM who are worse than their Imperial counterparts.

I reckon it's fully possible to represent all of these in one book, but it's true that Chaos would be approaching the number of datasheets that Imperial Space Marines have, and that's not a great situation.

If I was going to split them, I'd probably do Legions, Renegades and Lost and the Damned. 3 books is not too bad. The problem is we have seperate books now for Death Guard and Thousand Sons, so people will no doubt want them for Emperor's Children and World Eaters, and that'd bump us up to 7 books total for Chaos. Then again, compared to the Imperium that's still not too crazy, it's just more bloat than I'd want myself.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 10:07:38


Post by: Grimtuff


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Indeed. Please leave the Terminator Lord/ sorcerer alone, it's still the best HQ kit GW has created. They never got that quality again and used the Material properly that one time.


I was expecting a new Ahriman sculpt of him riding his staff like a pogo stick for the TS codex, this edition is dead to me.


Wouldn’t surprise me. The masses would lap it up as the current mini is from 2015 (IIRC) so is deemed “ancient” and “lumpy” and other such buzzwords by people who have no clue about how normal a longevity of a mini’s shelf life is…


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 10:20:22


Post by: Dudeface


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
It'd be a "space marine razorback" as it is now, just referenced in a supplement. Same way they don't make a space wolves razorback or blood angels razorback.
Those units are derived from the Space Marine Codex, so they kinda do.


I think you missed the part where I suggested a supplement that directs to both chaos and loyalist marine books. So if renegade dedicated transports says: this unit is derived from codex space marines, see razorback on page w/e, no additional boxes or marketing is needed.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 10:26:58


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I think there'd be a lot of complaints from people if they had to buy two full Codices on top of a Codex supplement to play one army.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 10:26:59


Post by: Gert


That would be such a confusing mess of rules though and who's going to buy 2 Codexes plus a Supplement just to use a Razorback with CSM?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 10:35:04


Post by: Dudeface


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think there'd be a lot of complaints from people if they had to buy two full Codices on top of a Codex supplement to play one army.


Oh I agree, but it'd be the "easiest" course of action they could take without reprinting entries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
That would be such a confusing mess of rules though and who's going to buy 2 Codexes plus a Supplement just to use a Razorback with CSM?


A razorback is just an example, it could be a full slew of units that fit from both. GW likely won't reprint them again due to the same issues that lead to the supplements in the first place.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 10:42:23


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


Dudeface wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think there'd be a lot of complaints from people if they had to buy two full Codices on top of a Codex supplement to play one army.


Oh I agree, but it'd be the "easiest" course of action they could take without reprinting entries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
That would be such a confusing mess of rules though and who's going to buy 2 Codexes plus a Supplement just to use a Razorback with CSM?


A razorback is just an example, it could be a full slew of units that fit from both. GW likely won't reprint them again due to the same issues that lead to the supplements in the first place.


GW had a more relaxed approach in the DG Codex with 9th. The Terminator lord and sorcerer are still there, even got DG rules (unlike last edition where they felt like a copy&paste error), even though there are only the generic CSM models for them.
So in essence, a renegade codex would be possible, but expect hilarious stuff like only razorbacks being able to equip hunter killer missiles, but Rhinos and Predators get havoc launchers.

But unfortunately GW really wants to keep loyalist and Chaos lines separate. The Fallen really should be in the Dark Angels supplement, they don't belong in a CSM book.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 10:50:45


Post by: Gert


I just don't see the point in a Renegades Book if it's just picking extra stuff from the SM Codex with no substantial changes. At that point why not just play SM with spikey models? At what point does the army stop being CSM and instead just become SM?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 11:01:06


Post by: Dudeface


 Gert wrote:
I just don't see the point in a Renegades Book if it's just picking extra stuff from the SM Codex with no substantial changes. At that point why not just play SM with spikey models? At what point does the army stop being CSM and instead just become SM?


Well, no primaris, some daemonic units, limited selections of wargear from both books.

On the flip side of this when do renegades suddenly flip from being a loyalist looking chapter to being full to the brim of daemon engines, 10k year old tech and mutants? There's an in-between step there that's incredibly relevant to the setting which just isn't explored.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 11:47:33


Post by: the_scotsman


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Today we're announcing a great new Combat Patrol box with 5 brand new Possessed, 20 new Cultists, a new Chaos Lord in Power Armour and a Chaos Rhino. Sadly, everything except the Rhino is pushfit. Enjoy!"


Be careful what you wish for...



Oh no not a monopose Rhino, save me, what am I going to doooooo?????


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sidebar: If anyone is interested, after the announcement of CSM waiting until 2022 my group opted to make an 'unofficial offical patch' to codex CSM to make them a little bit more reasonable.

TLDR is basically we gave all CSM units the stat shifts and point shifts that units in codex DG and codex Tsons got, added the new costs and stats from Tsons for daemon engines and daemon princes, and added a simple little rule to be the equivalent of basic SM doctrines, but chaos-y.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 11:52:33


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 the_scotsman wrote:
Oh no not a monopose Rhino, save me, what am I going to doooooo?????
Uhh... I think you misread my post.

 the_scotsman wrote:
TLDR is basically we gave all CSM units the stat shifts and point shifts that units in codex DG and codex Tsons got, added the new costs and stats from Tsons for daemon engines and daemon princes, and added a simple little rule to be the equivalent of basic SM doctrines, but chaos-y.
That's great and all, but there are fundamental problems behind Chaos both from a rules and miniature line perspective that 2 wound Marines and some revamped Daemon Engines - as necessary as they are - might not necessarily address.




Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 11:53:26


Post by: Gert


Dudeface wrote:
Well, no primaris, some daemonic units, limited selections of wargear from both books.

Limited how though, is the point I'm trying to get at here. CSM share the same basic weapons with only Grav Guns/Cannons, handheld Multi Meltas, Plasma Cannons missing from Marine units. The only CSM exclusive Havoc weapon is the Chain Cannon, and if we remove that and add the Loyalist weapons the unit just becomes Devastators.

On the flip side of this when do renegades suddenly flip from being a loyalist looking chapter to being full to the brim of daemon engines, 10k year old tech and mutants? There's an in-between step there that's incredibly relevant to the setting which just isn't explored.

For aesthetic reasons, CSM need to look different to Loyalists but the CSM kits aren't filled with older armour marks, in fact, it's easier to play Loyalists with older armour than CSM. As for old tech, there are two non-Daemon Engine weapons that Loyalists don't already have, Chain Cannons and Havoc Launchers. Loyalists can take Contemptors, Volkites on Relic Terminators which also get Reaper Autocannons from CSM. Daemon Engines are a choice, not a requirement. As for Mutants, if you spend more time in the Warp than Realspace then you get mutated, simple as that.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 12:11:43


Post by: Dudeface


 Gert wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Well, no primaris, some daemonic units, limited selections of wargear from both books.

Limited how though, is the point I'm trying to get at here. CSM share the same basic weapons with only Grav Guns/Cannons, handheld Multi Meltas, Plasma Cannons missing from Marine units. The only CSM exclusive Havoc weapon is the Chain Cannon, and if we remove that and add the Loyalist weapons the unit just becomes Devastators.

On the flip side of this when do renegades suddenly flip from being a loyalist looking chapter to being full to the brim of daemon engines, 10k year old tech and mutants? There's an in-between step there that's incredibly relevant to the setting which just isn't explored.

For aesthetic reasons, CSM need to look different to Loyalists but the CSM kits aren't filled with older armour marks, in fact, it's easier to play Loyalists with older armour than CSM. As for old tech, there are two non-Daemon Engine weapons that Loyalists don't already have, Chain Cannons and Havoc Launchers. Loyalists can take Contemptors, Volkites on Relic Terminators which also get Reaper Autocannons from CSM. Daemon Engines are a choice, not a requirement. As for Mutants, if you spend more time in the Warp than Realspace then you get mutated, simple as that.


I think you're missing the concept by a fair margin, it's not just about the silhouette of the model.

Last day of being a loyalist: me and my 15 buddies rock around in a land raider crusader, our nearly dead mate dave in his venerable dreadnought has an assault cannon and a fist.

We wake up the next morning, we're declared traitors because captain Nigel read the wrong book and has mutated.

Now for no reason we have to politely strip down our land raider, leave the assault cannons, hurricane bolters etc behind, we can't all fit in it any more. Half my buddies woke up with bunny ears, mutations and only want to hit things, the other half are now forced to attach spikes to their gear. Dave, is now more flesh than machine, swapped his assault cannon for a clunky autocannon found in a box from 10k years ago and found a hammer somewhere.

The rules don't allow the midground at the moment.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 12:30:03


Post by: Gert


If you've just turned traitor then the chances of any of your fellows suddenly becoming Bezerkers is fairly slim, same with everything suddenly becoming mutated.
What you're asking for is literally just giving the SM Codex the <Chaos> Keyword. You're not actually asking for anything that isn't already in the SM Codex.
You don't think Renegades should have old gear, OK no Chain Cannons because that's the only Chaos-specific weapon Loyalists don't have access to. You don't want Daemon Engines, OK no Daemon Engines. You don't want Mutants, OK no Helbrutes, Possessed, Cult Marines, or Oblits/Mutilators. What's left? Oh, a CSM Codex with literally all the flavour taken out. Now you want to be able to use the Loyalist gear as well? OK, let's add it in. Now you just have a worse SM Codex with no Primaris. It would literally have been easier to just use your models with the SM Codex.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 12:34:36


Post by: Dudeface


 Gert wrote:
If you've just turned traitor then the chances of any of your fellows suddenly becoming Bezerkers is fairly slim, same with everything suddenly becoming mutated.
What you're asking for is literally just giving the SM Codex the <Chaos> Keyword. You're not actually asking for anything that isn't already in the SM Codex.
You don't think Renegades should have old gear, OK no Chain Cannons because that's the only Chaos-specific weapon Loyalists don't have access to. You don't want Daemon Engines, OK no Daemon Engines. You don't want Mutants, OK no Helbrutes, Possessed, Cult Marines, or Oblits/Mutilators. What's left? Oh, a CSM Codex with literally all the flavour taken out. Now you want to be able to use the Loyalist gear as well? OK, let's add it in. Now you just have a worse SM Codex with no Primaris. It would literally have been easier to just use your models with the SM Codex.


A recent renegade chapter might still have a daemon prince or possessed, maybe obliterators. I doubt they'd be bringing a disco lord, heldrakes or havocs.

It's about a blend of the two to represent the turning point in their descent, I mean following your train of thought you probably can't tell me why chaos marines have land raiders, Vindicator, rhinos etc that are literally identical to loyalist ones because they would just be "Space marine units with the chaos keyword".

Edit: It doesn't really matter on second thoughts, you're applying a very black/white approach to an army list that isn't seemingly based on how things work in the fluff. To an extent you're right but if the vision isn't there to see the concept being applied then it's just us waffling back and forth.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 13:23:52


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Gert wrote:
If you've just turned traitor then the chances of any of your fellows suddenly becoming Bezerkers is fairly slim, same with everything suddenly becoming mutated.
What you're asking for is literally just giving the SM Codex the <Chaos> Keyword. You're not actually asking for anything that isn't already in the SM Codex.
You don't think Renegades should have old gear, OK no Chain Cannons because that's the only Chaos-specific weapon Loyalists don't have access to. You don't want Daemon Engines, OK no Daemon Engines. You don't want Mutants, OK no Helbrutes, Possessed, Cult Marines, or Oblits/Mutilators. What's left? Oh, a CSM Codex with literally all the flavour taken out. Now you want to be able to use the Loyalist gear as well? OK, let's add it in. Now you just have a worse SM Codex with no Primaris. It would literally have been easier to just use your models with the SM Codex.


Until you want to add some demons or chaos knights to your renegade force, then the rules stop you from doing it.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 13:33:11


Post by: Irbis


Voss wrote:
Well part of it is simply that I'm tired of GW papering over problems with $35+ single models rather than doing new _units_ that actually fill a role in the codex. Its lazy and cheap (for them) but expensive and inevitably a FOMO race for us.
I just refuse, and I'm tired of seeing the wasted release space on such things.

Um, how?

More options is always good. Always. You don't like official character model? Convert it. In no army this is truer than in chaos, where most character models tend to be Black Legion, and if you want whatever dude it is like a marked character, you need to convert anyway. No one from GW forces you to use official Executioner model, just give your DG/TS/WE model big axe, some skulls and the job is done.

I mean, Deathwatch (which is supposed to be the most unique and varied SM force in existence) gets gak all options, characters, or even wargear (idiot writers from GW think that faction with unlimited Inquisition permit to obtain anything they want has LESS options than regular SM! ), wanna trade for that if you think it's so good?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I don't see how doing all of these is difficult. For veterans of the Heresy, just remove the silly Martial Legacy rule from the Legions, so that they can use Heresy era units more freely than loyalists.

Yeah, because it totally makes sense some rag tag band of renegades with zero supply chains, no spare parts, no means of training new techmarines, forced to beg dark admech for attention paying exorbitant sums for it will have better access than organization that carefully maintained said equipment whole time, eh?

There is a good scene in Night Lords series where the warband leader, Talos, has to scavenge the battlefield for new glove for his armour. Glove. Literally the simplest and cheapest part of armour, because he has no other way of repairing or replacing it. The very idea these dudes can keep leviathans and contemptors running is utterly absurd, and if anything, the Martial Legacy rule for CSM should be doubled. Only the big, rich bands like Black Legion or Corsairs have means to run these, and they get extra CP to represent it. There, but alas, who cares about fluffy rules when you can spam whatever is most OP among pay to win FW junk instead

If anything, CSM got too much recently, diluting their identity. GW should remove thunder hammers, storm bolters, storm shields, etc post Heresy stuff, make expensive gear limited again. CSM used to represent dudes who, by necessity, have only the easiest to maintain and keep in use equipment. Daemons and daemon engines were produced not because CSM liked them, but because you can keep them running using just dead civilians. Force full of leviathans is so opposite of what CSM were last 25 years the very idea is ludicrous. Maybe Abaddon could field it, once, before someone scores lucky hit and the dread becomes useless because even Black Legion and dark admech can't procure the replacement parts unless they invade Mars or other equally defended target. Period.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 13:34:58


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Also, the reason you can't just play Spikey Marines from the Marine codex is they don't have the <CHAOS> keyword.

No really, this matters.

Several abilities key off the <CHAOS> keyword to do extra damage (three examples are the SoB War Hymn "Refrain of Blazing Piety", the different Ordo abilities of the Inquisition, and the Astra Militarum stragaem "vengeance for cadia").

For someone who enjoys narrative play and whose credulity is already strained in Crusade, to have someone play a "chaos" army that is unaffected by my narratively "anti-chaos" stuff would be the supreme derp.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 13:40:52


Post by: Tyel


I guess never say never... but it seems incredibly unlikely they are going to let people soup up SM and CSM just because it would better fit the conception of "new renegades".

The problem with "muh fluff tho" is it leads to the idea that every army should be able to include anything from any factions roster, because you can always make up the fluff afterwards.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 13:41:06


Post by: a_typical_hero


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also, the reason you can't just play Spikey Marines from the Marine codex is they don't have the <CHAOS> keyword.

No really, this matters.

Several abilities key off the <CHAOS> keyword to do extra damage (three examples are the SoB War Hymn "Refrain of Blazing Piety", the different Ordo abilities of the Inquisition, and the Astra Militarum stragaem "vengeance for cadia").

For someone who enjoys narrative play and whose credulity is already strained in Crusade, to have someone play a "chaos" army that is unaffected by my narratively "anti-chaos" stuff would be the supreme derp.

I see where you are coming from. But the solution to this is rather simple, isn't it?

Just exchange the Imperium keyword with Chaos where necessary. Or add it. Whatever is working better for you and your play buddy.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 13:56:23


Post by: Unit1126PLL


a_typical_hero wrote:
Just exchange the Imperium keyword with Chaos where necessary. Or add it. Whatever is working better for you and your play buddy.


Do we need to have another discussion about the "cult of officialdom?"

This same tactic could be used to turn GSC into Chaos Cultists/Mortal Renegades (swap Xenos for chaos and Tyranids for chosen chaos god, etc) but that never happens. Why? Well, if I rolled up to a campaign and said to the DM "I'm using my GSC as chaos cultists" or "I'm playing my CSM using the Space Marines codex" he will probably say no.

Two have said no to me so far, with the Chaos-cultists-as-GSC scenario.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 13:58:03


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
Just exchange the Imperium keyword with Chaos where necessary. Or add it. Whatever is working better for you and your play buddy.


Do we need to have another discussion about the "cult of officialdom?"

This same tactic could be used to turn GSC into Chaos Cultists/Mortal Renegades (swap Xenos for chaos and Tyranids for chosen chaos god, etc) but that never happens. Why? Well, if I rolled up to a campaign and said to the DM "I'm using my GSC as chaos cultists" or "I'm playing my CSM using the Space Marines codex" he will probably say no.

Two have said no to me so far, with the Chaos-cultists-as-GSC scenario.


oh.. nice


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 14:02:42


Post by: a_typical_hero


What was their problem with "count as"?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 14:08:51


Post by: Gert


I'm trying not to be mean or rude about the whole Renegade Marines thing but to me, it just comes off as "I want all of this because it could happen in the background". It's basically just a homebrew ruleset, which in my experience, never ever work.
There has to be a balance between background and gameplay. Giving Renegades access to units and equipment from the SM Codex because they might just have turned isn't going to be good for balancing the other subfactions. What are the Legions getting to counterbalance the fact that Renegades got a bunch more stuff and got to keep units from CSM? Obviously, I'm not expecting a solution here but rather just showing the other side of the argument from a Legion player who gains nothing from this.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 14:10:54


Post by: Karol


a_typical_hero wrote:
What was their problem with "count as"?


Now I can't say for other people, but "counts as" here. Is someone buying a 3ed party model or sculpting their own. You can't plop down a GK army and inform your opponent that since today you are playing deathguard or 1ksons. People will just say no. 100% of times.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 14:24:28


Post by: a_typical_hero


Karol wrote:
Now I can't say for other people, but "counts as" here. Is someone buying a 3ed party model or sculpting their own. You can't plop down a GK army and inform your opponent that since today you are playing deathguard or 1ksons. People will just say no. 100% of times.

I guess most people will say no, if the thing you want to "count as" got wildly different wargear from the model you are using, as your example of a GK Striker who wants to pose as a Plague Marine.

Chaos cultists for example fit perfectly for GSC troops. They look similar enough and come with the same wargear. Missing options can be converted. I would like to know the reason why someone would say no to this count as.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 14:26:59


Post by: Unit1126PLL


a_typical_hero wrote:
What was their problem with "count as"?


It isn't counts-as if you change the keywords.

There's a whole slew of consequences to keyword changes (like <Chaos Characters> can summon Daemons, especially in narrative play). Some weapons and abilities become more effective against them (the examples given above) and some less effective (Ordo Xenos ability, Deathwatch stuff, Death to the False Emperor). The units you can bring in your Crusade roster change (allied Chaos Daemons vs. allied Tyranids vs. allied, say, any imperial faction).

Changing keywords is not a consequence-free choice, but at the same time, running SM as CSM (or GSC as Chaos Cult) is totally inadequate without changing the keywords (because those consequences in the first place are narrative ones; it makes perfect sense that a chaos cult would be able to summon daemons and be harmed worse by the Vengeance for Cadia stratagem).


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 14:44:39


Post by: Dudeface


 Gert wrote:
I'm trying not to be mean or rude about the whole Renegade Marines thing but to me, it just comes off as "I want all of this because it could happen in the background". It's basically just a homebrew ruleset, which in my experience, never ever work.
There has to be a balance between background and gameplay. Giving Renegades access to units and equipment from the SM Codex because they might just have turned isn't going to be good for balancing the other subfactions. What are the Legions getting to counterbalance the fact that Renegades got a bunch more stuff and got to keep units from CSM? Obviously, I'm not expecting a solution here but rather just showing the other side of the argument from a Legion player who gains nothing from this.


As a renegade player who gained more or less nothing from faith and fury, what do I get for not having an extra warlord trait list, 2 pages of strats and page of relics? I gained nothing from the supplement level hands outs of the main legions.

Regards this suggestion, draw up a finite list of things to not give renegades, seems simple - no cult units, no lord of skulls, no heldrake, no forgefiends, no maulerfiends, no disco-lord, remove any direct correlation units found in the other codex (i.e. no point having raptors and assault marines, that can be an aesthetic choice). You're left with the more possessed looking units which don't require a daemon forge as a recently renegade chapter likely doesn't have one of those. From the marine side, take anything that doesn't have ostensibly complex tech. Leave the volkite and grav at home, limit the number of fliers carried over. Hell maybe include them with some kind of ramshackle rule where their guns can crap out but they're cheaper. Their main transports and vehicles don't pack in the second they get turned down by/leave the imperium but ammo and spares are a concern.

At no point have I advocated a pick and choose what you want from both for a super army. If you want to go down that route, why not force a 50% split of units in the army from each codex in each battlefield role.

Be creative rather than not getting past "but I can have it allll!!!!!!"


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 14:52:42


Post by: Crispy78


While I'd love a decent dedicated World Eaters book, my big worry is that they will be increasingly Flanderised, and GW's current mindset will mean they won't play nicely with the standard CSM book. So it'll be full of AxeLord BloodBuggerers or some such silliness, and I won't be able to use my Havocs or Vindicator or anything any more because they've got guns...


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 15:09:55


Post by: Dudeface


Crispy78 wrote:
While I'd love a decent dedicated World Eaters book, my big worry is that they will be increasingly Flanderised, and GW's current mindset will mean they won't play nicely with the standard CSM book. So it'll be full of AxeLord BloodBuggerers or some such silliness, and I won't be able to use my Havocs or Vindicator or anything any more because they've got guns...


You've lost the psychic phase, where's the harm in losing the shooting phase too right?

I kind of agree here, I think they should lean into the marital prowess side of Khorne and remember that killing at range can be as satisfying to Khorne as an axe to the face can be. Evidence from the other books says they'll 100% go down the "everything is blooooooooood" melee route though.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 15:21:29


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


Dudeface wrote:
Crispy78 wrote:
While I'd love a decent dedicated World Eaters book, my big worry is that they will be increasingly Flanderised, and GW's current mindset will mean they won't play nicely with the standard CSM book. So it'll be full of AxeLord BloodBuggerers or some such silliness, and I won't be able to use my Havocs or Vindicator or anything any more because they've got guns...


You've lost the psychic phase, where's the harm in losing the shooting phase too right?

I kind of agree here, I think they should lean into the marital prowess side of Khorne and remember that killing at range can be as satisfying to Khorne as an axe to the face can be. Evidence from the other books says they'll 100% go down the "everything is blooooooooood" melee route though.


Well, considering Khorne Daemons are the only ones' with a real shooty unit I wouldn't worry too much


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 15:22:34


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Crispy78 wrote:
While I'd love a decent dedicated World Eaters book, my big worry is that they will be increasingly Flanderised, and GW's current mindset will mean they won't play nicely with the standard CSM book. So it'll be full of AxeLord BloodBuggerers or some such silliness, and I won't be able to use my Havocs or Vindicator or anything any more because they've got guns...


You've lost the psychic phase, where's the harm in losing the shooting phase too right?

I kind of agree here, I think they should lean into the marital prowess side of Khorne and remember that killing at range can be as satisfying to Khorne as an axe to the face can be. Evidence from the other books says they'll 100% go down the "everything is blooooooooood" melee route though.


Well, considering Khorne Daemons are the only ones' with a real shooty unit I wouldn't worry too much


cries in slaaneshi soul grinders


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 15:53:15


Post by: Gert


Dudeface wrote:
As a renegade player who gained more or less nothing from faith and fury, what do I get for not having an extra warlord trait list, 2 pages of strats and page of relics? I gained nothing from the supplement level hands outs of the main legions.

Vigilus 2 is where Renegades got their toys and they will undoubtedly be in the next Codex.

Regards this suggestion, draw up a finite list of things to not give renegades, seems simple - no cult units, no lord of skulls, no heldrake, no forgefiends, no maulerfiends, no disco-lord, remove any direct correlation units found in the other codex (i.e. no point having raptors and assault marines, that can be an aesthetic choice). You're left with the more possessed looking units which don't require a daemon forge as a recently renegade chapter likely doesn't have one of those.

At which point you're not really playing CSM anymore, you're playing SM with Possessed and Obliterators. Raptors and Havocs have similar units but they aren't just aesthetic differences or wargear lists.

From the marine side, take anything that doesn't have ostensibly complex tech. Leave the volkite and grav at home, limit the number of fliers carried over. Hell maybe include them with some kind of ramshackle rule where their guns can crap out but they're cheaper. Their main transports and vehicles don't pack in the second they get turned down by/leave the imperium but ammo and spares are a concern.

Again I'm trying not to be rude but this is going to be such a long lists of very specific restrictions that it would be far more hassle than it was worth. If we look at what factions have had given/taken away, thus far it's been things like:
- Dark Angels: Sternguard and Vanguard squads cannot be from the Dark Angels Chapter (or any of their Successors).
- Only units with the Mark of Khorne may be included in World Eaters Detachments. Additionally, WE may not take units with the <Psyker> Keyword.
It's units that are restricted not wargear choices.
The sort of thing you have in mind would only really be possible IMO as an agreed house rule.

Be creative rather than not getting past "but I can have it allll!!!!!!"

Creativity only goes so far and while the sentiment is there, the idea has many flaws and IMO would result in less people playing Renegade Chapters rather than more due to the complexity of it all.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 16:04:40


Post by: Dudeface


 Gert wrote:

Vigilus 2 is where Renegades got their toys and they will undoubtedly be in the next Codex.


But... I got significantly less than the legions and lost the best strat in the base book for... no return.


At which point you're not really playing CSM anymore, you're playing SM with Possessed and Obliterators. Raptors and Havocs have similar units but they aren't just aesthetic differences or wargear lists.


They're not far off and could have a hybrid profile. But you're getting it at last: they're not just csm with sm nor sm with csm, they're their own flavour.

Again I'm trying not to be rude but this is going to be such a long lists of very specific restrictions that it would be far more hassle than it was worth. If we look at what factions have had given/taken away, thus far it's been things like:
- Dark Angels: Sternguard and Vanguard squads cannot be from the Dark Angels Chapter (or any of their Successors).
- Only units with the Mark of Khorne may be included in World Eaters Detachments. Additionally, WE may not take units with the <Psyker> Keyword.
It's units that are restricted not wargear choices.
The sort of thing you have in mind would only really be possible IMO as an agreed house rule.


Im not even going to avoid being rude but this is a wishlist thread for chaos fixes. What did you expect to find in here?

You know they can print altered unit entries if they want in different books?

Creativity only goes so far and while the sentiment is there, the idea has many flaws and IMO would result in less people playing Renegade Chapters rather than more due to the complexity of it all.


How many renegade players do you think there are now? I'd wager it's a shockingly low number due to lack of representation and the legions getting all the toys.

I'm not asking people to let me do this now, just to clarify this is a wishlist suggestion for a future book to split out a confused aspect of chaos. They could print altered entries, they can print a list of reference pages, but if you find that complicated then I can't help, sorry.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 17:11:46


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Gert wrote:

At which point you're not really playing CSM anymore, you're playing SM with Possessed and Obliterators. Raptors and Havocs have similar units but they aren't just aesthetic differences or wargear lists.


So what? I don't understand why this is a bad thing. That's pretty much exactly what Renegades are.

Just remember they can't just use the SM dex, because the keywords need to change.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 17:36:40


Post by: Gert


Dudeface wrote:
But... I got significantly less than the legions and lost the best strat in the base book for... no return.

Renegades didn't get access to VotLW prior to Vigilus so you lost nothing and gained a relic, warlord trait, and some of the best subfaction rules for all CSM forces.

They're not far off and could have a hybrid profile. But you're getting it at last: they're not just csm with sm nor sm with csm, they're their own flavour.

SM with some extra CSM units is not its own flavour. It's SM with some CSM units. There's nothing unique about it, you're just cherry-picking units you want and then saying "ah see but the background says I should be able to do this", even though that's never been seen, at least to my knowledge.

Im not even going to avoid being rude but this is a wishlist thread for chaos fixes. What did you expect to find in here?

A discussion.

You know they can print altered unit entries if they want in different books?

Altered how? What's the difference between a Space Marine Captain and a Renegade Space Marine Captain? If the only difference between playing an Imperial Chapter and a Renegade one is the subfaction rules then why does there need to be a supplement? Just use the rules found in the SM Codex. If you want Daemon or Warp-based units then play CSM, there are similar enough units to Loyalist counterparts.
All I'm getting from this is that you are annoyed that because "Your Dudes" aren't particularly Chaos yet but still a bit Chaos and you can't use Loyalist units alongside Daemon units.

I'm not asking people to let me do this now, just to clarify this is a wishlist suggestion for a future book to split out a confused aspect of chaos.

That's cool and I'm having a discussion about it because I find the premise interesting but the implementation lacking. If you don't want people to disagree with your opinions then don't post on a public forum.

They could print altered entries, they can print a list of reference pages, but if you find that complicated then I can't help, sorry.

I would argue that having to use 2 Codexes that don't interact at all and then adding a Supplement on top of that makes the idea complicated but there was no need to be rude about it.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So what? I don't understand why this is a bad thing. That's pretty much exactly what Renegades are.

Just remember they can't just use the SM dex, because the keywords need to change.

But it isn't. Renegade Chapters are a subset of CSM, and should therefore use the CSM rules. If you want to play a Chapter that turned to Chaos yesterday then you shouldn't have any Chaos units because the Chapter hasn't got there yet, at which point use the SM rules. If you want to do a specific scenario where your Chapter has just summoned a bunch of Daemons then write a custom scenario.



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 17:45:23


Post by: Unit1126PLL


You can't just use the SM rules for a recently turned chapter due to multiple examples I have already raised in this thread....


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 18:27:49


Post by: Dudeface


 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
But... I got significantly less than the legions and lost the best strat in the base book for... no return.

Renegades didn't get access to VotLW prior to Vigilus so you lost nothing and gained a relic, warlord trait, and some of the best subfaction rules for all CSM forces.

They're not far off and could have a hybrid profile. But you're getting it at last: they're not just csm with sm nor sm with csm, they're their own flavour.

SM with some extra CSM units is not its own flavour. It's SM with some CSM units. There's nothing unique about it, you're just cherry-picking units you want and then saying "ah see but the background says I should be able to do this", even though that's never been seen, at least to my knowledge.

Spoiler:

Im not even going to avoid being rude but this is a wishlist thread for chaos fixes. What did you expect to find in here?

A discussion.

You know they can print altered unit entries if they want in different books?

Altered how? What's the difference between a Space Marine Captain and a Renegade Space Marine Captain? If the only difference between playing an Imperial Chapter and a Renegade one is the subfaction rules then why does there need to be a supplement? Just use the rules found in the SM Codex. If you want Daemon or Warp-based units then play CSM, there are similar enough units to Loyalist counterparts.
All I'm getting from this is that you are annoyed that because "Your Dudes" aren't particularly Chaos yet but still a bit Chaos and you can't use Loyalist units alongside Daemon units.

I'm not asking people to let me do this now, just to clarify this is a wishlist suggestion for a future book to split out a confused aspect of chaos.

That's cool and I'm having a discussion about it because I find the premise interesting but the implementation lacking. If you don't want people to disagree with your opinions then don't post on a public forum.

They could print altered entries, they can print a list of reference pages, but if you find that complicated then I can't help, sorry.

I would argue that having to use 2 Codexes that don't interact at all and then adding a Supplement on top of that makes the idea complicated but there was no need to be rude about it.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So what? I don't understand why this is a bad thing. That's pretty much exactly what Renegades are.

Just remember they can't just use the SM dex, because the keywords need to change.

But it isn't. Renegade Chapters are a subset of CSM, and should therefore use the CSM rules. If you want to play a Chapter that turned to Chaos yesterday then you shouldn't have any Chaos units because the Chapter hasn't got there yet, at which point use the SM rules. If you want to do a specific scenario where your Chapter has just summoned a bunch of Daemons then write a custom scenario.



Here are the Relictors: https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Relictors

Loyal marines who were judged for using chaos relics and chaos wargear, eventually declared traitors causing them to fight the inquisition, eventually fleeing into the eye of terror and throughout become more chaotic and feature more possessed.

They had rules in white dwarf 281 and 295 (UK editions), here's a slightly dodgy link to their rules if you were interested:

http://redelf.narod.ru/w40k/ia/w40k_ia_relic_0.html

Red corsairs were previously represented by using Loyalist marines models alongside chaos ones with the chaos codex. I'm pretty sure back in 3rd some other questionable chapters got rules as well.

Even in the modern day you have the fallen who use chaos datasheets in imperium armies and until recently referenced other publications.

These are not new ideas or executions.

Edit: the Cursed founding rules in 3rd also limit unit options and number to represent chapters shunned by the imperium. They have mutants and abominations added as units, can ally with Loyalist marines only but have to start in reserve.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 18:54:09


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


My issue with recent renegades is that entire Chapters turning is really quite rare.

Individuals, squads, strike forces etc might depart. But an entire Chapter is rare.

We can also assume some level of violence during the event, at the very least a purging of still loyal elements.

If you don’t take a Techmarine with you? Who’s going to maintain your equipment? The Dark Mechanicum and other Chaos forces do nothing for free. There’s always a price.

If you did take a Techmarine with you? Where are you getting the raw materials from? You can’t easily stay put on your Chapter World after all. And if he’s given a Better Option? How do you hold onto them?

And this is why even those from the Heresy era favour more reliable, if not as deadly weapons.

The forces of Chaos aren’t often presented as cohesive military forces the way the Imperium is. They don’t have the set supply lines and back up etc they once had.

I suppose, if I may get politically tongue in cheek? Turning traitor is a bit like Brexit. You depart, and that stuffs up your supply chain.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 18:57:49


Post by: Dudeface


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My issue with recent renegades is that entire Chapters turning is really quite rare.

Individuals, squads, strike forces etc might depart. But an entire Chapter is rare.

We can also assume some level of violence during the event, at the very least a purging of still loyal elements.

If you don’t take a Techmarine with you? Who’s going to maintain your equipment? The Dark Mechanicum and other Chaos forces do nothing for free. There’s always a price.

If you did take a Techmarine with you? Where are you getting the raw materials from? You can’t easily stay put on your Chapter World after all. And if he’s given a Better Option? How do you hold onto them?

And this is why even those from the Heresy era favour more reliable, if not as deadly weapons.

The forces of Chaos aren’t often presented as cohesive military forces the way the Imperium is. They don’t have the set supply lines and back up etc they once had.

I suppose, if I may get politically tongue in cheek? Turning traitor is a bit like Brexit. You depart, and that stuffs up your supply chain.


This exactly, hence a limited list of wargear options or special rules to reinforce the gear is a little shoddy wouldn't hurt. I agree about the whole chapter situation, it gets a little complicated outside of that, I wonder if a renegades unit or "recent traitors" unit could be a mor elegant way. It doesn't rule out some of the vehicles magically vanishing ofc, I can't imagine a Las-razorback is much harder to maintain than a Las-predator, same with hurricane bolters where appropriate.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 19:01:03


Post by: Karol


I also think that the chance that more then a few officers get offed durning the transition from loyalist to chaos. This may create very specific gaps in a company or chapter structure. What does one do, if the apothecarion members don't turn, and fight to the bitter end. And after a civil war the chapter ends up being 350-400 marines and no one with the higher training as apothecary or you have techmarines on your force, but no forge masters, so you can produce ammo, basic weapons , but no one alive on the force knows how to repair a dreadnought, grav engines or power coils on a macro cannon.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 19:17:52


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Now I think about it, perhaps this is a failing of the setting?

We’ve never really had a breakdown of a Chapter falling to Chaos.

Yes, there are the Astral Claws. But, they never really left their base of operations, and turned alongside various other Chapters - so not a great touchstone for Average.

So….give us that, too. In a novel or series of novels if needs be. It’s a fascinating topic so I’m up for it.

But one thing’s for sure. Unless it’s a large scale rebellion? You’re not making off with a great deal of stuff. There’s a distinct danger that when you make it to a safe harbour, you’ll just get mugged for your best gear.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 19:24:04


Post by: Table


Honestly. GW needs to make Legion marines more powerful than Primaris. Why? 10k years of combat experience. But they should cost a bit more due to being marked and all. Perhaps chosen will fill this gap.

A normal CSM should also mirror the firstborn but be more expensive due to marks and such.

GW will never do this. It interrupts the power fantasy and bolter porn for which they have grown rich, pushing on young children. I figure the adult fans could handle lore accuracy. Maybe.

So, beyond this I will restate my desires....because.

A) Codex : Legions
Codex : Renegades
Supplement : Dark Mechanicus
Supplement : Traitor Guard.
Codex : Death Guard
Codex : Thousand Sons
Now I would like to see DG and TS folded into a large Legions codex. But that will never happen.

B) Stop adding demon engines and HQ models. We have more than enough. Fix what we have.
*note* We should get new Noise Marine minis because the current situation is bleh.

C) Redo old models. Bezerkers are 20 years old now? Maybe more.
If you are waiting for a Khorne demonkin book or a Emps Children codex then you are going to be waiting years. People were waiting for those things before 8th. Never happened.

D) Balance. No one liked us in 3.5. No one likes us now. Balance us against space marines to as close to 50/50 as possible. We are mirrors and the balance should reflect that.

E) Make the Hel Drake great again.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 19:43:17


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’m always going to stand by that a Chaos Player should have the option to comprise their army of various Warbands, drawn from a variety of Chaos Codexes.

Now. Each of those Codexes would need to stand on its own two feet, so you could field your army solely from that Codex/Legion/Archetype. So this isn’t an argument for those to be light on the detail.

It could even be tied to a Keyword.

Example off the top of my head and hence I’ve not thought through before anyone criticises it?

You pick a Parent Codex (let’s say Thousand Sons). That’s your Overlord, and you have free reign of that Codex’s options. Perhaps a minimum percentage of points should be spent, perhaps not.

You can then add mini-formations, without burning CP to add in Warband stuff from other Codexes. However, you can only select units with the Warband Keyword. And perhaps for extra flavour, you can’t ally with rival gods (background cool isn’t necessarily tabletop cool).

Units with Warband would exclude say, Scarab Occult, Deathshroud etc - super rare stuff we might reasonably expect to be reserved for larger parties within that former Legion.

Each Warband HQ can have their own Warlord Trait.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 19:47:33


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Now I think about it, perhaps this is a failing of the setting?

We’ve never really had a breakdown of a Chapter falling to Chaos.

Yes, there are the Astral Claws. But, they never really left their base of operations, and turned alongside various other Chapters - so not a great touchstone for Average.

So….give us that, too. In a novel or series of novels if needs be. It’s a fascinating topic so I’m up for it.

But one thing’s for sure. Unless it’s a large scale rebellion? You’re not making off with a great deal of stuff. There’s a distinct danger that when you make it to a safe harbour, you’ll just get mugged for your best gear.


Codex Crimson Slaughter had a pretty detailed description how they turned to Chaos. I'm pretty sure the whole Chapter turned but it's been a while since I read that.
Also, hilariously their specialty were Drop pod assaults, even when they turned to Chaos. Which fits perfectly into this thread...


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 20:06:45


Post by: Gert


A good portion of the Chapter turned after they launched a crusade into the Eye of Terror, intent on purging it. 200 Astartes died before the schism and more died when the larger portion of the Chapter turned to Chaos. So they were probably sitting on around half strength but were already mutated and corrupted into Chaos Space Marines. Then Dark Vengeance happened, then Diomar(?), and finally Vigilus. GW set the Crimson Slaughter up as the premier 6th Ed Chaos faction then slaughtered them in every single campaign.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 20:15:54


Post by: Dudeface


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Now I think about it, perhaps this is a failing of the setting?

We’ve never really had a breakdown of a Chapter falling to Chaos.

Yes, there are the Astral Claws. But, they never really left their base of operations, and turned alongside various other Chapters - so not a great touchstone for Average.

So….give us that, too. In a novel or series of novels if needs be. It’s a fascinating topic so I’m up for it.

But one thing’s for sure. Unless it’s a large scale rebellion? You’re not making off with a great deal of stuff. There’s a distinct danger that when you make it to a safe harbour, you’ll just get mugged for your best gear.


Codex Crimson Slaughter had a pretty detailed description how they turned to Chaos. I'm pretty sure the whole Chapter turned but it's been a while since I read that.
Also, hilariously their specialty were Drop pod assaults, even when they turned to Chaos. Which fits perfectly into this thread...


Oh dear, I never understood why they didn't just let chaos have drop pods but after some of the discussion in here, I sort of see what happened.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 20:25:30


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Chaos not using Imperial Drop Pods does make sense.

They’re kind of useless for raiding, because they’re a one way transport. Sure, they’ll get you planetside nice and fast and about as safely as one could hope.

But….unless you have the means and opportunity to go and recover them, let alone their contents? It’s just a resource sink. And if you have the resources to maintain recovery ships (like the Thunderhawk transport), just…put those resources into more formal, dedicated drop gun ships.

Drop Pods are basically fine if you’re fine with a One Way trip to wreck face, or are confident enough of a big enough victory to have the chance to recover them.

When you’re piratical and raiding? They’re just not practical or advantageous.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 20:30:35


Post by: Dudeface


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Chaos not using Imperial Drop Pods does make sense.

They’re kind of useless for raiding, because they’re a one way transport. Sure, they’ll get you planetside nice and fast and about as safely as one could hope.

But….unless you have the means and opportunity to go and recover them, let alone their contents? It’s just a resource sink. And if you have the resources to maintain recovery ships (like the Thunderhawk transport), just…put those resources into more formal, dedicated drop gun ships.

Drop Pods are basically fine if you’re fine with a One Way trip to wreck face, or are confident enough of a big enough victory to have the chance to recover them.

When you’re piratical and raiding? They’re just not practical or advantageous.


If you're piratical they're essential for boarding actions, they'd be top of the list of things to maintain I'd imagine surely?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 20:32:23


Post by: Dysartes


You're thinking of boarding torpedoes, not drop pods.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 20:37:46


Post by: Dudeface


 Dysartes wrote:
You're thinking of boarding torpedoes, not drop pods.


Ahh yes, it's dreadclaws that double up for both sorry.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 20:38:47


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Dysartes wrote:
You're thinking of boarding torpedoes, not drop pods.

The kinds of drop pods CSM do have, Dreadclaws and the Karybdis, are designed for boarding actions. And when used for planetary attacks they don't just sit where they drop like useless lumps. They can fly around and act as transports and attack enemies. They can also return to space afterwards. Perfect for piracy and raiding.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 20:39:37


Post by: Dysartes


Yeah, Dreadclaws are a whole different kettle of warp beasty...


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 21:07:42


Post by: SamusDrake


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Indeed. Please leave the Terminator Lord/ sorcerer alone, it's still the best HQ kit GW has created. They never got that quality again and used the Material properly that one time.


Agreed. The options are incredible and the value makes GW look generous for a change!

Actually, I might get another before GW replaces it for a boring static model with not even a helmet option( much like another certain marine sorceror... ).


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/08 22:22:20


Post by: drbored


SamusDrake wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Indeed. Please leave the Terminator Lord/ sorcerer alone, it's still the best HQ kit GW has created. They never got that quality again and used the Material properly that one time.


Agreed. The options are incredible and the value makes GW look generous for a change!

Actually, I might get another before GW replaces it for a boring static model with not even a helmet option( much like another certain marine sorceror... ).


I know it's a tough bargain, since in terms of functionality and options the kit is amazing, but man the bits look mighty lumpy compared to modern kits. The best case scenario is we get a newly updated Terminator Lord/Sorc kit that still has lots of options in it, all done in the modern scale and style.

But GW won't give us that and we all know it.

Anyway, a plastic Kharybdis transport would be amazing, or really any other kind of flying transport. Just don't give us a Stormraven with spikes. No thanks.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 00:24:26


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, Dreadclaws are a whole different kettle of warp beasty...


Theyre not warp stuff, they were used back in the HH even by loyalists.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 00:26:39


Post by: Kanluwen


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, Dreadclaws are a whole different kettle of warp beasty...


Theyre not warp stuff, they were used back in the HH even by loyalists.

Yes, and they were ditched because the Machine Spirits became extremely violent during the Heresy itself...purportedly because of exposure to Warp entities.
To the point where Loyalists jettisoned/spiked them and used Thunderhawks instead.

Same thing happened with a bunch of the more 'feral' servitor/robots of the AdMech.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 01:08:57


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Well we can at least look forward to WE and EC being split off into their own armies.

As for what's left, I think it should be left pretty basic. The vanilla CSM roster (including cultists), the four iconic marked units, and that's it. But do it well. Make sure the units work, and work like they should in regards to theme & tabletop roles. Leave bonuses for Legions and warbands as basic faction bonuses instead of trying to create a ton of unique identities within the same codex. Leave daemons out in favor of just getting the CSM right. And make veterans of the long war a serious stat buff, like straight 2+ WS/BS, but leave it as a simple stat buff instead of bloating things out with tons of customization. Overall, KISS and make the baseline just work. Leave the flavor for...

Codex Supplement: Veterans of the Long War. CSM aren't popular enough to justify legion supplements like how loyalists get, but doing a combined supplement for all of them would definitely work. Here is where all of those quirky mutations and veteran boons come in. Here is where extra rules for integrating daemons into a force can be found. This is the supplement fully dedicated to giving Legions the glory they deserve. None of the cultist or renegade stuff, that is in...

Codex Supplement: The Lost and the Dammed. More options for renegade warbands, rules for including guard and/or firstborn units in the army (see GSC). Extra stuff for Red Corsairs. Various options to alter/upgrade cultists. Release it alongside upgrade sprues for converting loyalist units to Chaos ones (also see GSC).


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 01:45:54


Post by: Jarms48


At this point, I'd prefer all of the Legions to get their own codexes. Take all those Legion units out of CSM, instead make CSM the codex for more recent renegade chapters and their human followers. Basically a combination of CSM and Lost and the Damned.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 01:48:30


Post by: Eldarain


I'd be thrilled if they went with Ninth's proposal. That's efficient so probably won't happen unfortunately.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 01:55:45


Post by: Brutus_Apex


Having Mixed Chaos Marine units could be cool to add an element of "Chaos" to the army.

Could work like Deathwatch where you are able to take X number of Chaos Marines, X number of Cultists, X number of Champions, X number of Possessed.

Would be a logistical nightmare to keep track of all the stats and wargear, but it would be cool.

I would also like them to add something like Tyranid Biomutations where you spend command points to give your units "Daemonic Upgrades". You could have two separate entries, one would Daemonic Mutations, the other could be Veteran Upgrades.

At the end of the day they just really need to concentrate on fixing/releasing the core of the army and make that work before they add anything else.

You can only patch the army so much by releasing X Daemon Engine. Make basic Marines work first and foremost, the rest of it should be flavour.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 02:03:24


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Eldarain wrote:
I'd be thrilled if they went with Ninth's proposal. That's efficient so probably won't happen unfortunately.

Agreed. I like NinthMusketeer's idea for VoTLW a lot as well....


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 02:58:06


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I mostly agree with NinthMusketeer, but would change a couple of things.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As for what's left, I think it should be left pretty basic. The vanilla CSM roster (including cultists), the four iconic marked units, and that's it.
I would include the basic Cult Terminator units as well, but otherwise yeah

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Leave bonuses for Legions and warbands as basic faction bonuses instead of trying to create a ton of unique identities within the same codex.

Leave daemons out in favor of just getting the CSM right. And make veterans of the long war a serious stat buff, like straight 2+ WS/BS, but leave it as a simple stat buff instead of bloating things out with tons of customization. Overall, KISS and make the baseline just work. Leave the flavor for...
You mean this would have the Legion rules like like the Chapter rules are in the Marine 'Dex, but the more specific rules are kept to the Supplements? I guess this is where a "Build-A-Warband" rules would be. This would have to be a pretty robust book to function on its own. I don't think everyone wants to play with supplements, so it has to be able to stand on its own two legs.

If anything "Veterans of the Long War" could be their unifying rule, a bit like Chapter Tactics. Less of an upgrade, more of an overall army thing. Not sure how you'd do that without giving it more thought, but y'know...

I guess it comes down to what this book is meant to represent. If it's "Chaos Space Marines", then it has to be Legion and Renegade without the need for supplements, but at the same time the Legion and Renegade books would have to provide far more to justify their existence. Remember that White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Imperial/Crimson Fists and, yes, even Ultramarines don't really have enough to make them require separate books. With few exceptions, they're just special characters in different expensive books. I don't feel they provide enough of a difference to warrant their exclusion from the main Marine Codex, except as a "Codex First Founding". Not unless they get some unique units (Firedrakes, Stormseers, Gorgon Terminators, etc.).

As the core Codex for CSMs it has to be a stand alone book. Nothing else should be required to make use of its content.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Codex Supplement: Veterans of the Long War. CSM aren't popular enough to justify legion supplements like how loyalists get, but doing a combined supplement for all of them would definitely work. Here is where all of those quirky mutations and veteran boons come in. Here is where extra rules for integrating daemons into a force can be found. This is the supplement fully dedicated to giving Legions the glory they deserve. None of the cultist or renegade stuff, that is in...
Some cultist stuff though. I mean this book would have Alpha Legion and Word Bearers, so excising them completely wouldn't be the best idea. I think this also has to be more than just special characters, a Warlord Trait table, and some relics. Daemons are a nice touch, but I'd want something a little more to flesh out each of the Legions. Doesn't have to be DG/1KSons/WE/EC levels, but they have to get something.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Codex Supplement: The Lost and the Dammed. More options for renegade warbands, rules for including guard and/or firstborn units in the army (see GSC). Extra stuff for Red Corsairs. Various options to alter/upgrade cultists. Release it alongside upgrade sprues for converting loyalist units to Chaos ones (also see GSC).
Just the Red Corsairs? Or all the other Renegade Warbands we have as well (Purge, Crimson Slaughter, etc.)? Overall I like this idea. If it lets me use my LatD army from the Codex EOT days, then great!


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 03:20:40


Post by: Gadzilla666


Seeing all of those LATD-style units in that leak from a few weeks ago, I really want to be able to run those by themselves. But what really interests me is new Chosen. I really hope they do them justice, in both models and rules. Chosen should be more than just a way to spam special weapons.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 03:48:28


Post by: drbored


I'm not sure I'm sold on the supplements, but honestly I know that if GW can sell us multiple books, they absolutely will.

So if that's the case, let's get Death Guard, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, and Thousand Sons into Supplements just like the Space Marine supplements are. This way, you can bring your Nurgle-converted Predators and Defilers without hamstringing yourself. They've got the keyword system to make sure things don't get too out of hand when it comes to buffs and such.

That allows them to use the Chaos Marine Codex in much the same way as the Space Marine one is now, a place as a repository for all of the non-unique things. The base troops, vehicles, etc. Throw in some rules that say 'you cannot take a World Eater unit in a Death Guard detachment' (or somesuch) to cover your bases and keep things relatively thematic, and go from there.

The question becomes this: How much of the 'vanilla' chaos stuff gets put into the main codex, and how much is left out in favor of yet another supplement. Ideally, everything from Abaddon and Undivided legion rules, make-your-own-legion traits, and Huron Blackheart and all of the renegade warbands should just be in the main codex. But, again, knowing GW, if they can sell us a new book, they likely will, and then throw three campaign rulebooks with 1 page of rules to cover other extra stuff to boot.

Personally, I'd rather see them flesh out an Undivided Legions supplement. Get the Night Lords, Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion a big ol' supplement where you can fit in any extra 'veterans of the long war' traits and such. If they build it like they did the space marine supplements, it should work great without needing a massive investment, but at the same time, people will complain about needing to buy two books just to play something like Black Legion.

But then, really, I'd rather they just DON'T do what they're doing with Space Marines, because Space Marines are spread across 10 books now, which is absolutely ridiculous. Just make the Chaos Marine codex solid. Let us play with our toys without being hamstrung into the same choices that we'll have to use for another 5+ years. They did it with things like Gloomspite Gitz, where you could make a themed or a mixed army no problem. They did it with Lumineth Realmlords. They did it with Admech, Sisters of Battle, and even Orks.

I'm just ready for another disappointment in terms of codex and rules, and I know it's going to be another year before we see World Eaters (rumor says Fall of 2022) and likely longer before we see Emperor's Children (2023 at the earliest by my estimate) and then we'll be ready for 10th edition, ready to get crapped on again.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 03:55:30


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
But what really interests me is new Chosen. I really hope they do them justice, in both models and rules. Chosen should be more than just a way to spam special weapons.
What we want.
What we'll get.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 04:36:39


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Leave bonuses for Legions and warbands as basic faction bonuses instead of trying to create a ton of unique identities within the same codex.

Leave daemons out in favor of just getting the CSM right. And make veterans of the long war a serious stat buff, like straight 2+ WS/BS, but leave it as a simple stat buff instead of bloating things out with tons of customization. Overall, KISS and make the baseline just work. Leave the flavor for...
You mean this would have the Legion rules like like the Chapter rules are in the Marine 'Dex, but the more specific rules are kept to the Supplements? I guess this is where a "Build-A-Warband" rules would be. This would have to be a pretty robust book to function on its own. I don't think everyone wants to play with supplements, so it has to be able to stand on its own two legs.
Yup, full subfaction legion rules like the current codex has (only, ya know, actually good) plus obligatory stratagem, WL trait, and artifact for each. And any bonuses for having the whole army be mono-faction, if they choose to do that for CSM. Maybe no build-a-warband though, in favor of making sure the legions and named warbands (Red Corsairs, Purge, etc) have solid bonus support alongside the legions.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Codex Supplement: Veterans of the Long War. CSM aren't popular enough to justify legion supplements like how loyalists get, but doing a combined supplement for all of them would definitely work. Here is where all of those quirky mutations and veteran boons come in. Here is where extra rules for integrating daemons into a force can be found. This is the supplement fully dedicated to giving Legions the glory they deserve. None of the cultist or renegade stuff, that is in...
Some cultist stuff though. I mean this book would have Alpha Legion and Word Bearers, so excising them completely wouldn't be the best idea. I think this also has to be more than just special characters, a Warlord Trait table, and some relics. Daemons are a nice touch, but I'd want something a little more to flesh out each of the Legions. Doesn't have to be DG/1KSons/WE/EC levels, but they have to get something.
This book would be about options and customization. The sort of thing that, if put into the main codex, would bloat it out too hard but nothing that is just straight 'free stuff'. Everything either costs points or is an additional choice which swaps out with what's available in the main CSM. For example, each legion gets a full chart of 6 WL traits and a similar number of artifacts, options for daemonic mutations on characters/VotLW units (as someone suggested above), special crusade rules. Cultist-specific stuff, I feel, should already be included with those legions' rules in the basic CSM; this supplement is about the marines. It isn't like cultists will be getting the likes of WL traits, artifacts, or veteran upgrades. Also see below.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Codex Supplement: The Lost and the Dammed. More options for renegade warbands, rules for including guard and/or firstborn units in the army (see GSC). Extra stuff for Red Corsairs. Various options to alter/upgrade cultists. Release it alongside upgrade sprues for converting loyalist units to Chaos ones (also see GSC).
Just the Red Corsairs? Or all the other Renegade Warbands we have as well (Purge, Crimson Slaughter, etc.)? Overall I like this idea. If it lets me use my LatD army from the Codex EOT days, then great!
All the named renegade warbands of course, Red Corsairs just getting a bit more due to their unique status and actually having a model. Cultist & traitor guard options also having crossover to Alpha Legion and Word Bearers where appropriate. This is also where the build-a-warband stuff can go, allowing it to be more expansive without bloating the basic CSM book. And again, all these things need to have a cost be it points or replacing an existing option. No army should be inherently weaker for not having access to these things (GW balance will see to that), they should not just be free bonuses for showing up with an extra book.


Really the entire concept is 'hey, we see that CSM players want all these options but it is too much for one codex, so let's get the core of the army functioning as it should in the main codex then offload the more specialist/bloaty content into supplements.'


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 05:14:18


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Yup, full subfaction legion rules like the current codex has (only, ya know, actually good) plus obligatory stratagem, WL trait, and artifact for each. And any bonuses for having the whole army be mono-faction, if they choose to do that for CSM. Maybe no build-a-warband though, in favor of making sure the legions and named warbands (Red Corsairs, Purge, etc) have solid bonus support alongside the legions.
I'd still do the build-a-warband thing, partly because I like the idea that people can build their own forces and partly because most other armies have it, so why not them, but you're right in that it's the kind of thing better suited to the Renegades book more than the core book.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
This book would be about options and customization. The sort of thing that, if put into the main codex, would bloat it out too hard but nothing that is just straight 'free stuff'. Everything either costs points or is an additional choice which swaps out with what's available in the main CSM. For example, each legion gets a full chart of 6 WL traits and a similar number of artifacts, options for daemonic mutations on characters/VotLW units (as someone suggested above), special crusade rules. Cultist-specific stuff, I feel, should already be included with those legions' rules in the basic CSM; this supplement is about the marines. It isn't like cultists will be getting the likes of WL traits, artifacts, or veteran upgrades. Also see below.
I guess as this is a supplement, the basic Cultist options would still be there. You could put bonuses and whatnot for AL or WB Cultists into the extra rules for those Legions.

Still not sure about the VotLW thing though.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
All the named renegade warbands of course, Red Corsairs just getting a bit more due to their unique status and actually having a model.
I'd be concerned about giving the Red Corsairs a bit more favour, mainly as I'd want to avoid the "Sure, you could play all these other things, but this one thing is just slightly better than them!" potential.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Cultist & traitor guard options also having crossover to Alpha Legion and Word Bearers where appropriate.
Anything specifically related to Cultists with AL/WB should be in a Legion book. You shouldn't need the CSM Codex, and the Legion book, and this book just to rep the Cultist side of AL/WB. I think back to the way supplements for the 40k RPGs were done - the assumption behind every supplement was that the reader owned that supplement, and the core rulebook, and that's it; you never assumed (or required) the reader to get other books (even referencing other supplements was rare) - so if you want special Alpha Legion or Word Bearer rules for Cultists, then they either need to be in the CSM book, or the Legion book, not also this one.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
This is also where the build-a-warband stuff can go, allowing it to be more expansive without bloating the basic CSM book.
I think you're right about this. This is a better place for the Build-A-Warband rules.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
And again, all these things need to have a cost be it points or replacing an existing option. No army should be inherently weaker for not having access to these things (GW balance will see to that), they should not just be free bonuses for showing up with an extra book.
Well in the case of the build-a-warband stuff, that would be giving up the regular Renegade Warband rules in favour of being able to pick and choose the combo of the ones you want.

I also think the book should be able to represent 3 facets of "Renegades" in that you could do a "Traitor Marine Chapter", also do a "Non-Marine Rabble with the odd CSM Marine leader", and also "Renegade Marines that have totally gone to Chaos", which would involve a heavier emphasis on the Daemon side of things.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 14:31:03


Post by: Gadzilla666


H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
But what really interests me is new Chosen. I really hope they do them justice, in both models and rules. Chosen should be more than just a way to spam special weapons.
What we want.
What we'll get.

My fear as well. I don't think they'll have as many options as Sternguard, but instead what other CSM kits don't have. I think gw is going to go with the SoB approach for our PA infantry, IE: if you can get it from another kit, you can have it. Right now the only thing not covered by CSM, Raptors/Warp Talons, and Havocs is combi-weapons, so I expect Chosen to have those, plus some cc weapons. At least that's what I'm hoping.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
This book would be about options and customization. The sort of thing that, if put into the main codex, would bloat it out too hard but nothing that is just straight 'free stuff'. Everything either costs points or is an additional choice which swaps out with what's available in the main CSM. For example, each legion gets a full chart of 6 WL traits and a similar number of artifacts, options for daemonic mutations on characters/VotLW units (as someone suggested above), special crusade rules. Cultist-specific stuff, I feel, should already be included with those legions' rules in the basic CSM; this supplement is about the marines. It isn't like cultists will be getting the likes of WL traits, artifacts, or veteran upgrades. Also see below.
I guess as this is a supplement, the basic Cultist options would still be there. You could put bonuses and whatnot for AL or WB Cultists into the extra rules for those Legions.

Still not sure about the VotLW thing though.

Yeah, what exactly are "VoTLW units"? And I don't like their abilities being specifically tied to "mutations". Having basic stuff like Daemonic Flight tied to Daemonic Gifts in 3.5 was ok, because it was a modeling thing: give them jump packs if you want, or give them wings, your call. Now everything is tied to what's actually on the models. And a bunch of mutated infantry doesn't work for some Legions. Iron Warriors are known to cut off mutated limbs, and Night Lords don't generally suffer from mutations.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 22:09:12


Post by: NinthMusketeer


@HBBC, I do want to emphasize that these supplements should not be making armies stronger, just more customizable. Buuuut this is GW so a rule where an AL/WB army can use extra cultist rules from LatD or the extra veteran rules from VotLW but not both would probably be a good idea.

@Gadzilla, when I say "VotLW units" I mean it in the most intuitive sense: units with the VotLW rule. I do see your point about mutations, personally I'd put in a whole chart for mutations AND a whole chart for veteran abilities, because the whole point of making this a supplement is to have the room to do that.

Though I must remind myself this is all just wishlisting and whatever is actually going to happen has probably been decided already. We will see... in 2022.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 22:34:39


Post by: ArcaneHorror


I very much agree with the suggestion to make god marks feel like something. If I run a Nurgle army, I want it to really feel like a Nurgle-marked army. It doesn't have to be as specific as the Death Guard, but close enough. Also, bringing back the rules for corrupted vehicles sounds great; there's a big continuum between a complete normal, uncorrupted vehicle and a raging daemon engine. I'd love to be able to run something in my army like the possessed Land Raider in the Steel Daemon novella.

Also, as a Crimson Slaughter fan, I'd love to see some of these come back, and for other warbands as well:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/04/40k-new-crimson-slaughter-formations.html


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 22:43:22


Post by: Dysartes


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Yeah, Dreadclaws are a whole different kettle of warp beasty...


Theyre not warp stuff, they were used back in the HH even by loyalists.


Saying "kettle of fish" seemed even more out of place.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 23:02:47


Post by: Gadzilla666


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
@HBBC, I do want to emphasize that these supplements should not be making armies stronger, just more customizable. Buuuut this is GW so a rule where an AL/WB army can use extra cultist rules from LatD or the extra veteran rules from VotLW but not both would probably be a good idea.

@Gadzilla, when I say "VotLW units" I mean it in the most intuitive sense: units with the VotLW rule. I do see your point about mutations, personally I'd put in a whole chart for mutations AND a whole chart for veteran abilities, because the whole point of making this a supplement is to have the room to do that.

Though I must remind myself this is all just wishlisting and whatever is actually going to happen has probably been decided already. We will see... in 2022.

Yeah, that sounds cool. I'm not opposed to mutations being something in the rules, I'm just afraid that because of GW's goofy "no model, no rules" policy, they'd go and stick them on every model. If it's just rules and you can model it however you want, like Daemonic Gifts in 3.5, it could be pretty fun. And you're right, if the codex isn't already printed, it's almost definitely already written. This is just wishlisting and speculation.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 23:43:56


Post by: solkan


I think if you wanted any gradual or customizable effects of Veterans of the Long War, or similar for a group progressing into Chaos, you're going to be looking at campaign play stuff rather than data sheets in a codex.



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/09 23:45:19


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Or a "one per detachment" thing like the Ork special mobz.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/10 00:11:06


Post by: Gadzilla666


Pretty sure Deadly Pathogens and Legion Command are both "one per army". So, same for Veteran Abilities?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/10 00:51:27


Post by: techsoldaten


Not sure why this thread needs to exist.

There's a simple route for GW to solve most problems with Codex CSM. It's obvious, when you think about it.

- Stratagems that involve random dice rolls to determine whether or not they are useful

- Bring back Warpflame Gargoyles

- Make Lucius a LOW

- Cut and paste the remainder of the rules, and remember to update wounds for CSM



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/10 00:52:44


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Ok now you're just doing it on purpose.

 techsoldaten wrote:
There's a simple route for GW to solve most problems with Codex CSM. It's obvious, when you think about it.
You forgot "Increase the points cost of Rhios/Land Raiders because they have a 5+(I) save in the 1KSons book".



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/10 01:22:21


Post by: techsoldaten


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ok now you're just doing it on purpose.

 techsoldaten wrote:
There's a simple route for GW to solve most problems with Codex CSM. It's obvious, when you think about it.
You forgot "Increase the points cost of Rhios/Land Raiders because they have a 5+(I) save in the 1KSons book".



Yes. Pivotal.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/10 01:24:27


Post by: Gadzilla666


Don't forget charging us 1CP for every marine. That power armour they're wearing is Heresy era equipment, can't be giving us that for just points now can they?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/10 01:43:32


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


Also please don't forget to have GW remove the 1CP cost for 30K units. The Imps don't have to pay it why should those armies based on 30K vets have to pay?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/10 04:07:47


Post by: NinthMusketeer


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Ok now you're just doing it on purpose.
Oh I've been doing it on purpose for at least 7 years at this point


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/12 10:45:08


Post by: techsoldaten


Getting serious for a moment... let's look back at when Chaos changed: Dark Vengeance.

We finally got Cultists, but we also got Maulerfiends / Forgefiends / Hellbrutes / Heldrakes. The empahsis on Daemon Engines was a change from the traditional, more chaotic vision of CSM Legions. We also got new Raptors, which were significantly less Chaotic than the previous edition.

The releases we've seen since then are Lord Dischordant (Daemon Engine), Venomcrawlers (Daemon Engine), CSMs / Havocs (model updates), and new HQs / Elites (Master of Possession, Greater Possessed, Master of Executions). Then they split off Death Guard and Thousand Sons into their own books.

The focus on Daemon Engines and HQs has been less satisfying, it changed the way the armies played to the point where cult troops, Chaos armor, summoned Daemons, and basic CSMs don't play a prominent role in most lists. In 6th, Heldrakes and Cultist blobs got a lot of work done in my armies. In 8th, it was mostly lascannon infantry heavily buffed by HQs and auras. While Daemon Princes still have a place in most lists, that's about as good as it gets - completely warped out armies don't seem to have a place anymore. It all seems very mechanized now.

Here's hoping the new Codex does something about that. Back in the day, seemed like all anyone really wanted was Cult Terminators and changes to the FOC slots so elites weren't a tax on the rest of your army. We're a long way off from that.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/12 12:35:00


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I think for me, the disappointment with the Daemons engines is the current relative lack of variety.

Deathguard show genuine hope there, with some smaller ones (not sure if they’re Dreadnought comparable though?).

Thousand Sons were a minor letdown in that regard, as they could’ve done Tzeentchian Daemon Engines. I’m not unhappy with what they did get models wise, just Daemon Engines would’ve been super cool.

I can only hope that with Chaos now in ascendency, we’ll see them emptying the armouries, and more Daemon Engines rocking up in the game.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/12 13:14:47


Post by: H.B.M.C.


1KSons got the Mutalith.

I'm hoping WE get the Slaughterbrute.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/12 13:23:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Oh that’s true, I’d forgotten that.

Would still have liked something akin to mini-Silver Towers, which could be fielded in pairs, with a LoS blocking straight line between them, ala Old Epic.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 01:19:58


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think for me, the disappointment with the Daemons engines is the current relative lack of variety.

Deathguard show genuine hope there, with some smaller ones (not sure if they’re Dreadnought comparable though?).

Thousand Sons were a minor letdown in that regard, as they could’ve done Tzeentchian Daemon Engines. I’m not unhappy with what they did get models wise, just Daemon Engines would’ve been super cool.

I can only hope that with Chaos now in ascendency, we’ll see them emptying the armouries, and more Daemon Engines rocking up in the game.

A greater variety of daemon engine types would be good. But CSM shouldn't be penalized for taking non-daemon engine vehicles. I don't have anything against daemon engines, but we shouldn't be strong-armed into using them.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 01:55:27


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Would still have liked something akin to mini-Silver Towers, which could be fielded in pairs, with a LoS blocking straight line between them, ala Old Epic.
Oh I like that idea.

That should have been the 1KSons terrain kit - a pair of floating mini-Silver Towers. Give them some interaction with psychic powers (ie. can measure range of the power from the tower is the Psyker is within X" distance), and a small psychic attack, and they float around!


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 06:16:51


Post by: Dudeface


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think for me, the disappointment with the Daemons engines is the current relative lack of variety.

Deathguard show genuine hope there, with some smaller ones (not sure if they’re Dreadnought comparable though?).

Thousand Sons were a minor letdown in that regard, as they could’ve done Tzeentchian Daemon Engines. I’m not unhappy with what they did get models wise, just Daemon Engines would’ve been super cool.

I can only hope that with Chaos now in ascendency, we’ll see them emptying the armouries, and more Daemon Engines rocking up in the game.

A greater variety of daemon engine types would be good. But CSM shouldn't be penalized for taking non-daemon engine vehicles. I don't have anything against daemon engines, but we shouldn't be strong-armed into using them.


They haven't removed any of their traditional vehicles, they just need rebalancing. You can build a csm list without any daemon units fairly easily.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 10:42:14


Post by: Gadzilla666


Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think for me, the disappointment with the Daemons engines is the current relative lack of variety.

Deathguard show genuine hope there, with some smaller ones (not sure if they’re Dreadnought comparable though?).

Thousand Sons were a minor letdown in that regard, as they could’ve done Tzeentchian Daemon Engines. I’m not unhappy with what they did get models wise, just Daemon Engines would’ve been super cool.

I can only hope that with Chaos now in ascendency, we’ll see them emptying the armouries, and more Daemon Engines rocking up in the game.

A greater variety of daemon engine types would be good. But CSM shouldn't be penalized for taking non-daemon engine vehicles. I don't have anything against daemon engines, but we shouldn't be strong-armed into using them.


They haven't removed any of their traditional vehicles, they just need rebalancing. You can build a csm list without any daemon units fairly easily.

Right, rebalancing. Lower the points for Land Raiders, Predators, and Vindicators, and remove Martial Legacy from the Heresy era units. At least our daemon engines will be able to shoot and hit straight once the codex is released. That's a good thing.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 10:44:35


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Would still have liked something akin to mini-Silver Towers, which could be fielded in pairs, with a LoS blocking straight line between them, ala Old Epic.
Oh I like that idea.

That should have been the 1KSons terrain kit - a pair of floating mini-Silver Towers. Give them some interaction with psychic powers (ie. can measure range of the power from the tower is the Psyker is within X" distance), and a small psychic attack, and they float around!


And you’d need to make wom wom wom wom wom wom wom noises whilst moving them.

Could definitely work as a form of fortification. Tau already have (perhaps had? Modern knowledge remains woeful) mobile if slow trenches and that.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 13:56:39


Post by: Eldenfirefly


GW still need a better vision of what CSM is. CSM right now just feels like inferior marines...

We have chaplains who are on foot, while most SM chaplains are zipping around on a bike. Not to mention our chaplains are far less scary than the SM Chaplains who seem to be able to kill even Captains and Chaos lords with ease.

Our basic CSM is an inferior marine to the basic first born marine, much less a primaris marine...

Chosen are a joke. The meanest baddest CSM are so bad nobody fields them, plus there isn't even a proper model range for them unless you got the Dark Vengence set.

Only cult troops are interesting and have great character, but these are being hived off to the dedicated cult books anyway like DG and TSons. The center piece of a CSM army can't be a cult marine, not when that is already the center piece of other codex like DG and Tsons already.

Daemon Engines shouldn't be the only distinctive thing in the CSM codex because the codex is called Chaos Space Marines, it isn't called codex daemon engines...

Same for all demonic stuff. There is already a codex called chaos daemons. CSM have embraced the dark gods, and yes have mutations in their ranks. But they are not all demonic yet. If you want a fully demonic army, then just play chaos daemons.

Even our biggest baddest general Abaddon is like that. He is favoured by the dark gods, but he isn't a daemon prince. Abby is still "mortal". CSM codex shouldn't = demons since there is already a chaos daemon codex.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 15:47:19


Post by: Dudeface


Eldenfirefly wrote:
GW still need a better vision of what CSM is. CSM right now just feels like inferior marines...

We have chaplains who are on foot, while most SM chaplains are zipping around on a bike. Not to mention our chaplains are far less scary than the SM Chaplains who seem to be able to kill even Captains and Chaos lords with ease.

Our basic CSM is an inferior marine to the basic first born marine, much less a primaris marine...

Chosen are a joke. The meanest baddest CSM are so bad nobody fields them, plus there isn't even a proper model range for them unless you got the Dark Vengence set.

Only cult troops are interesting and have great character, but these are being hived off to the dedicated cult books anyway like DG and TSons. The center piece of a CSM army can't be a cult marine, not when that is already the center piece of other codex like DG and Tsons already.

Daemon Engines shouldn't be the only distinctive thing in the CSM codex because the codex is called Chaos Space Marines, it isn't called codex daemon engines...

Same for all demonic stuff. There is already a codex called chaos daemons. CSM have embraced the dark gods, and yes have mutations in their ranks. But they are not all demonic yet. If you want a fully demonic army, then just play chaos daemons.

Even our biggest baddest general Abaddon is like that. He is favoured by the dark gods, but he isn't a daemon prince. Abby is still "mortal". CSM codex shouldn't = demons since there is already a chaos daemon codex.


Any unit with any degree of mutation or possession gets the daemon keyword, due to being... part daemon. If you take those out you've essentially set yourself back to "marines with spikes", which I don't say missing the point, I say this because what else do you expect them to do?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 15:58:52


Post by: Gert


There are serious missteps with CSM but right now the only way to make them feel like anything that isn't "Space Marines but edgy" is to use things like Daemon Engines, Possessed, and Obliterators since at its core, the army is still technically a variety of Space Marine. For rules, obviously, CSM are going to be inferior because the Codex is from last Edition where it wasn't particularly great anyway.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 16:14:36


Post by: Crispy78


As we all know well, there's the infuriating central dichotomy with CSMs whereby in the lore they should be at least as powerful as loyalist marines because of additional experience / ancient better wargear / not bound by imperial dogma / dark powers of chaos etc; and yet in-game they're not allowed to be because we can't just ROFLstomp little Timmy's first army. Don't know how they resolve that.

I mean, I know how I want them to... Blood For The Blood God! Little Timmy's skull for the Skull Throne!


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 16:45:39


Post by: Gert


I don't think its some coherent effort to keep SM on top otherwise they'd be the only army anyone complained about every single edition, which obviously isn't the case. It's just that the army is extremely broad in scope, much like SM, but doesn't have the model support to back it up.
I think Upgrade Kits for the non-Cult Legions and the Red Corsairs would go a long way to making the range feel a bit more complete, rather than having to rely on FW.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 16:50:20


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


The main trouble with Space Marines is that their Codex tends to remain flexible enough in terms of unit choice that it can perform in pretty much any kind of meta.

However, I still don’t agree that CSM should be better than Loyalist Marines.

Sure, a given individual and his squad mates might be more experienced than Loyalists - but they lack the formal military structure and logistical support of Loyalists.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 17:15:04


Post by: JNAProductions


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The main trouble with Space Marines is that their Codex tends to remain flexible enough in terms of unit choice that it can perform in pretty much any kind of meta.

However, I still don’t agree that CSM should be better than Loyalist Marines.

Sure, a given individual and his squad mates might be more experienced than Loyalists - but they lack the formal military structure and logistical support of Loyalists.
I think there should be (at least) three CSM Troops choices. Names I'm not set on, but the concept is clear.

Raw Recruits
They're power-armored, they're Chaos Space Marines, but they're not battle-hardened. They're worse and cheaper than a basic Space Marine.

Chaos Space Marines
The equivalent of a Tactical, but with the ability to customize a little more, and because of that, they can end up (on a squad level) more expensive than a Tactical Squad.

Chosen
Better than an Intercessor, and by a decent margin. If an Intercessor is fair at 20 points, these guys should START around 25. Tons of customization, tons of ability to upgrade them. These are the Veterans Of The Long War, the Legionnaires, those who have been around for millennia of war.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 18:40:44


Post by: IwinUlose


1. Every Chaos Legion that has not got a new codex actually suck.
2. You Disco with Daemon engines or nothing else to compete.
3. Troops for Obsec are only 2. csm and cultist. Nothing else like ISM get. Which is understood to a degree as they are pretty stagnate in the warp compared to the Imperium.

4. This is some view points on what to do.
1. Let us stat with Dark APostles and Master of Possession getting equipment upgrades. EAch Undivided legion should have 1-2 new HQ, Daemon summoning should be fixed.
2. Black Legion is known to have many of the big 4 under them. Troop section should allow 1 of the big 4 as troops choice per standard CSM unit taken to get more Obsec.
3. Word Bearers is known to have more possessed csm, more interaction with daemons. So, Troop Daemons and possessed should be in troop section for OBsec on a 1v1 basis with either CSM and cultists taken. Possessed need some type of range attack like boltpistols to make them more comparable to other similar melee units.
4. Iron Warriors should move elite to troops section with a 1v1 basic csm squad. they should also be able to have reduced weapon cost and vehicle cost as that is their thing.
5. Alpha legion should also have elite in troops and a new scout(sabatoge) unit in elite section. or other way round.
6. Nightlords should have a new psych that can force leadhship rolls at a penalty. they also should have the snipers iand elietes n troop section but again with a 1v1 ratio with standard CSM or cultists.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 18:50:16


Post by: Dudeface


 IwinUlose wrote:

4. Iron Warriors should move elite to troops section with a 1v1 basic csm squad. they should also be able to have reduced weapon cost and vehicle cost as that is their thing.


Nope. Never have 1 subfaction have more elites at lower prices, that's how stuff gets very broken and stays very broken.

Or more of anything cheaper for that matter.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 19:44:17


Post by: Da Boss


Yeah there are better ways to represent Iron Warriors than that sort of stuff. That was problematic in 3.5, and was one of the only genuinely problematic things apart from daemonbomb.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 21:01:38


Post by: pelicaniforce


 JNAProductions wrote:
I think there should be (at least) three CSM Troops choices. Names I'm not set on, but the concept is clear.

Raw Recruits
They're power-armored, they're Chaos Space Marines, but they're not battle-hardened. They're worse and cheaper than a basic Space Marine.

Chaos Space Marines
The equivalent of a Tactical, but with the ability to customize a little more, and because of that, they can end up (on a squad level) more expensive than a Tactical Squad.

Chosen
Better than an Intercessor, and by a decent margin. If an Intercessor is fair at 20 points, these guys should START around 25. Tons of customization, tons of ability to upgrade them. These are the Veterans Of The Long War, the Legionnaires, those who have been around for millennia of war.



This is an overall concept that makes a lot of sense. It keeps csm from being just marines but spiky, as they’ve been described already in the thread.

As a matter of gameplay I don’t think it’s necessary to make an opponent distinguish between three different types of just power armor troops on foot. In the background the middle grade who have loyalist discipline would be so rare they’d be reserved for special jobs like havocs, fast attack, and tank crew.

If a chaos player wants a troop choice that’s similar to a tactical squad they should have to pay for expensive chosen and equip them that way, the way in 30k it’s only possible to get a codex style tactical squad if they’re veterans.

As for names raw recruits might be something marauders or raiders, referring to Fantasy.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/13 22:35:58


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
 IwinUlose wrote:

1. Let us stat with Dark APostles and Master of Possession getting equipment upgrades. EAch Undivided legion should have 1-2 new HQ, Daemon summoning should be fixed.
2. Black Legion is known to have many of the big 4 under them. Troop section should allow 1 of the big 4 as troops choice per standard CSM unit taken to get more Obsec.
3. Word Bearers is known to have more possessed csm, more interaction with daemons. So, Troop Daemons and possessed should be in troop section for OBsec on a 1v1 basis with either CSM and cultists taken. Possessed need some type of range attack like boltpistols to make them more comparable to other similar melee units.
4. Iron Warriors should move elite to troops section with a 1v1 basic csm squad. they should also be able to have reduced weapon cost and vehicle cost as that is their thing.
5. Alpha legion should also have elite in troops and a new scout(sabatoge) unit in elite section. or other way round.
6. Nightlords should have a new psych that can force leadhship rolls at a penalty. they also should have the snipers iand elietes n troop section but again with a 1v1 ratio with standard CSM or cultists.

1 - SM Chaplains don't actually have loads of options, nor do Librarians. MoP and Apostles don't need options they just need to be good. Each non-Cult Legion should be getting 1 Character and a unit, nothing more, nothing less. When the named Characters section starts to get bigger than the rest of the Codex it's a problem. The exception for me would be the Word Bearers who should get both Kor Phaeron and Erebus.
2 - Black Legion IMO are fine. The rules make sense for the kind of tactics they employ, plus they have 2 named Characters.
3 - Word Bearers don't need more Possessed, they just need to not lose faction rules if they take Daemons. Oh and a better Legion Trait that isn't a basic rule for SM.
4 - Iron Warriors just need to not be awful and horseshoed into Obliterators and Daemon Engines.
5 - Some form of infiltrator would be neat for the AL but overall not sure how they play so can't comment.
6 - NL just suffer from the fact that in general CSM are a bad army.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 00:12:13


Post by: Table


Not be caustic, but its cute that you guys think Worldeaters and Emps Children are getting books in the next few years (if ever). People have been wish listing it since KDK. Has yet to happen and wont imho, not anytime soon at least.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 00:13:16


Post by: Eldenfirefly


So how is it that GW knows how to make a dozen distinct different space marine factions with only very few or zero actual unit variations between one or another, and yet, CSM, with all its daemon engines, obliterators, chaos stuff, etc can't be made into a unique faction instead of "Inferior space marines with spikes" ...


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 01:03:02


Post by: Gadzilla666


Eldenfirefly wrote:So how is it that GW knows how to make a dozen distinct different space marine factions with only very few or zero actual unit variations between one or another, and yet, CSM, with all its daemon engines, obliterators, chaos stuff, etc can't be made into a unique faction instead of "Inferior space marines with spikes" ...

Because gw has for some reason decided to stick with the godawful 4th edition codex concept where every Legion is basically Black Legion/Renegades with a different paint scheme instead of looking at our last good codex (3.5) for ideas.

Gert wrote:6 - NL just suffer from the fact that in general CSM are a bad army.

Yeah, we definitely don't need a Legion trait that isn't practically useless against most of the factions in the game, or rules that make going Undivided/no Mark a viable option.

And isn't "CSM being a bad army" bad for every Legion?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 01:07:21


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Table wrote:
Not be caustic, but its cute that you guys think Worldeaters and Emps Children are getting books in the next few years (if ever). People have been wish listing it since KDK. Has yet to happen and wont imho, not anytime soon at least.
And they'll never put Primarchs in 40k either.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 04:32:19


Post by: drbored


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Table wrote:
Not be caustic, but its cute that you guys think Worldeaters and Emps Children are getting books in the next few years (if ever). People have been wish listing it since KDK. Has yet to happen and wont imho, not anytime soon at least.
And they'll never put Primarchs in 40k either.


Something something there's no way they'll ever let you take Lords of War like Baneblades in 40k...

Pepperidge Farm Remembers.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 17:06:25


Post by: IwinUlose


So many great responses in this chat.
Main thing from everyone is
1. update the chaos figures
2. Chaos does not have the ability to field new tech
3. Chaos Marines are the same as the original marines for stats. So no Primaris please
4. They dont age over10,000 years of experience over the Imperial Space Marines.
5. They cant reproduce as much after dying. So after 10,000 years there shouldnt be so many around anymore, however, they should have bs ws better than space marines for all of them being veterans of a 10,000 long battle.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 18:02:23


Post by: Rihgu


I'm not sure anybody has said any of that in this thread, except MAYBE number 1.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 18:07:31


Post by: Gert


 IwinUlose wrote:
So many great responses in this chat.
Main thing from everyone is
1. update the chaos figures
2. Chaos does not have the ability to field new tech
3. Chaos Marines are the same as the original marines for stats. So no Primaris please
4. They dont age over10,000 years of experience over the Imperial Space Marines.
5. They cant reproduce as much after dying. So after 10,000 years there shouldnt be so many around anymore, however, they should have bs ws better than space marines for all of them being veterans of a 10,000 long battle.

1 - Yes.
2 - In that the army shouldn't just become a carbon copy of Space Marines, yes.
3 - Yes.
4 - No, not even close.
5 - Again no, CSM replenish their ranks through Renegades, stolen Loyalist gene-seed or cloned gene-seed gained from a deal with a Traitor Apothecary/Magos. CSM are not all VotLW but IMO there shouldn't be different unit profiles to reflect this since replacements happen all the time and giving every single CSM unit 2+ WS/BS would make them as good in battle as things like Custodes, which they are objectively not.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 18:41:37


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Chaos needing to pay CP for their vehicles and GW refusing to FAQ them to +1 wounds is the biggest thing turning me off right now.
I had a lot of fun up to pre-thousand sons with my Night lords but now that i've tasted the glory of marines not dying to incidental firepower, i dont think i can go back to NL until the codex is out


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 18:48:12


Post by: iGuy91


Now I don't play Chaos, but i'd love to see some kind of 'Winds of Chaos' mechanic, selected turn by turn, which provide army-wide buffs on the turn they are active, with improved buffs for CORE units, or units keyed to a particular god....or maybe units with appropriate chaos marks? I don't know however what exactly these buffs could entail.

So, for a 5 turn game you get...
Undivided
Khorne
Tzeentch
Slaanesh
Nurgle

Then, throw in additional wounds on the models that have been needing it.

I think that Chaos should be deadlier in melee than Loyalists, and be more powerful in the psychic phase, while being.....slightly above average in shooting, which is probably about where they are... Just need to elevate the dex to 9th edition otherwise.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 18:58:21


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 iGuy91 wrote:
Now I don't play Chaos, but i'd love to see some kind of 'Winds of Chaos' mechanic, selected turn by turn, which provide army-wide buffs on the turn they are active, with improved buffs for CORE units, or units keyed to a particular god....or maybe units with appropriate chaos marks? I don't know however what exactly these buffs could entail.

So, for a 5 turn game you get...
Undivided
Khorne
Tzeentch
Slaanesh
Nurgle

Then, throw in additional wounds on the models that have been needing it.

I think that Chaos should be deadlier in melee than Loyalists, and be more powerful in the psychic phase, while being.....slightly above average in shooting, which is probably about where they are... Just need to elevate the dex to 9th edition otherwise.


I'm not a fan of weird rules like that tbh, i'd rather we get our wounds and marks that actually do something.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 19:34:29


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On potential rules, I’m once again gonna delve into the wonderful rules of 2nd edition Epic Space Marine.

There, Chaos would receive bonuses if they were up on VPs. Being behind reverted you to your standard profile.

It basically represented the favour of the Gods. Whilst the exact mechanic would need transposing and translation (in Epic, both players raced to a target VP total. Objectives gave 5 VP whilst you held them, so scores would fluctuate)

But I think something could be adapted. Perhaps bonuses to Prayers and Psychic Powers, or perhaps additional CPs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or….and I know this might prove controversial…..

A chart you roll on each turn, which generates an optional Secondary Objective, representing the whims of the Gods?

The rewards needn’t be especially high, as I don’t envisage them replacing your existing Secondaries in any way, but being relatively random ways to bag some extra VPs? So not something you can necessarily plan around, but can absolutely exploit.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 21:16:16


Post by: Marshal Loss


Table wrote:
Not be caustic, but its cute that you guys think Worldeaters and Emps Children are getting books in the next few years (if ever). People have been wish listing it since KDK. Has yet to happen and wont imho, not anytime soon at least.


You know Thousand Sons and Death Guard have received releases/books in the time since KDK was first brought out........right?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A chart you roll on each turn, which generates an optional Secondary Objective, representing the whims of the Gods?

The rewards needn’t be especially high, as I don’t envisage them replacing your existing Secondaries in any way, but being relatively random ways to bag some extra VPs? So not something you can necessarily plan around, but can absolutely exploit.


How exactly would a system like this work in a game where the amount of VPs you can accumulate are strictly capped?

Would really prefer to avoid random nonsense like this.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/14 21:42:51


Post by: Eldarain


A system similar to the AoS Battle Tactics for Chaos would be fun.

(For those unaware: beginning of your turn pick from a short list of things to accomplish. If you succeed 2 VP. If you fail nothing and you can't try that one again)

It feels thematic to have Chaos characters be able to choose to seek the attention of their gods through specific acts.

It doesn't have to be VP. It could be stat/ability unlocks or restoring wounds etc.

Can have a set of punishments if they fail in their efforts but I'd hope the rewards would be quite strong if they went this way
(Unlike the recent trend of daemonic rewards being roughly analogous to other races options but with added punishments for "flavour")


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 01:04:46


Post by: Gadzilla666


Ugh. No random nonsense please. And no "vying for the Gods attention" stuff unless it's optional. Just like Champion of Chaos and the Chaos Boon Table, that stuff is about as fluffy as a cement block for Night Lords. If I wanted to play a bunch of religious nuts I'd have chosen Word Bearers or Black Templars back in the day.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 01:49:33


Post by: drbored


Since we're seeing factions with more and more layered rules, I think they absolutely could do something more. Give us Legion rules, yes, but then also let us choose "Favored God". So, different keywords will change based on which "Favored God" you follow. Pick Slaanesh and get Noise Marines as troops, for a start. Pick Nurgle and you can make a Death Guard detachment with less of a CP penalty, for another thing they could do.

or take "Undivided" and get Terminators as troops, or something.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 02:05:36


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I'd rather just have Marks that do something...


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 02:11:46


Post by: Gadzilla666


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'd rather just have Marks that do something...

Agreed. And "something" means more than access to a single stratagem and psychic power, or just +1 to a single stat. For reference, please see: Chaos Space Marines 3.5: The Books of Chaos. Marks should do that.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 03:05:16


Post by: Jarms48


Something something there's no way they'll ever let you take Lords of War like Baneblades in 40k...

Pepperidge Farm Remembers.


Must be pretty oldschool for this. They made rules for Baneblades in standard games all the way back in 3rd edition from memory.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 03:20:35


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Jarms48 wrote:
Something something there's no way they'll ever let you take Lords of War like Baneblades in 40k...

Pepperidge Farm Remembers.


Must be pretty oldschool for this. They made rules for Baneblades in standard games all the way back in 3rd edition from memory.
Yes but they like Special Characters required your opponents permission to field at the time. It was never an assumed thing at the time.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 04:31:04


Post by: drbored


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
Something something there's no way they'll ever let you take Lords of War like Baneblades in 40k...

Pepperidge Farm Remembers.


Must be pretty oldschool for this. They made rules for Baneblades in standard games all the way back in 3rd edition from memory.
Yes but they like Special Characters required your opponents permission to field at the time. It was never an assumed thing at the time.


Correct. It wasn't until like... 5th edition or 6th edition that they introduced the idea of taking Baneblades in a Matched Play sort of list and had a slot for it in the Force Organization Chart.

Oh the raging at the time was sublime. You had the camp split between people that just wanted to play with Baneblades, and grognards that thought it would be the thing that finally kills GW.

Now here we are, with Baneblades that few competitive players would even consider taking since they're just so bad on the table.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 05:13:57


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Agreed. And "something" means more than access to a single stratagem and psychic power, or just +1 to a single stat. For reference, please see: Chaos Space Marines 3.5: The Books of Chaos. Marks should do that.
Here's a hypothetical then:

Marks of Chaos vs Cult Troops

1. Cult Troops are just CSMs/Terminators/Chosen with the Mark. They are one and the same. For example, give a Mark of Khorne to a Chaos Marine, he's now a Berzerker.

2. Cult Troops are different to CSMs/Terminators/Chosen with the Mark. They represent two different things. For example, give a Mark of Nurgle to a Chosen Marine and he does not become a Plague Marine. He has some Nurgle-related buffs, but maybe not the same levels of Plague Marine-specific equipment, and not the full suite of rules that actual Plague Marines receive.

3. Cult Troops are just CSMs/Terminators/Chosen with the Mark but the Cult Legions get additional bonuses. So a CSM with a Mark of Slaanesh is the same thing as a Noise Marine, but an Emperor's Children Noise Marine is somehow better than them with slightly better rules.

I'm wondering what people prefer. Also, two caveats here are that 1KSons are 1KSons regardless. Mark of Tzeentch on CSM/Terminator = Rubric/Scarab Occult. They're not something you can separate, and that I'm just talking about basic units (CSM/Termies/Chosen, not vehicles, characters and the like).


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 05:16:08


Post by: Table


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Table wrote:
Not be caustic, but its cute that you guys think Worldeaters and Emps Children are getting books in the next few years (if ever). People have been wish listing it since KDK. Has yet to happen and wont imho, not anytime soon at least.
And they'll never put Primarchs in 40k either.


That has nothing to do with you getting a WE or EC codex. I promise you, it is not coming this year. Or next year. Keep wishing however. It will make it come faster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
Table wrote:
Not be caustic, but its cute that you guys think Worldeaters and Emps Children are getting books in the next few years (if ever). People have been wish listing it since KDK. Has yet to happen and wont imho, not anytime soon at least.


You know Thousand Sons and Death Guard have received releases/books in the time since KDK was first brought out........right?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A chart you roll on each turn, which generates an optional Secondary Objective, representing the whims of the Gods?

The rewards needn’t be especially high, as I don’t envisage them replacing your existing Secondaries in any way, but being relatively random ways to bag some extra VPs? So not something you can necessarily plan around, but can absolutely exploit.


How exactly would a system like this work in a game where the amount of VPs you can accumulate are strictly capped?

Would really prefer to avoid random nonsense like this.


Again, what does that have to do with anything I have said. I said, and I will repeat, that I think it is cute that you are still waiting for a WE codex (I mean, how do you even have a WE codex? The legion disintegrated long ago) or EC codex. The fact that DG and TK got codexs means very little. But time will tell who is correct in this matter. Im stating it will be at least , at very best, two years out...and I would say never, but I am trying to be optimistic here!

Edit : KDK was a codex made to push the bloodthrister model but you have a far better chance at seeing a new codex for them than WE.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 05:32:23


Post by: BrianDavion


One thing IMHO GW needs to do with future models etc from a visual standpoint is lean a bit into the Hellbrute a bit, by that I mean the hellbrute is something whose orgins are clear. but at the same time it's been mutated and corrupted by Chaos. GW needs to take some stuff from the HH line and give it the "hellbrute treatment"

heck here's an idea, take the scimitar pattern jetbike, replace the heavy weapon mounted in the front with some some of demonic mouth (that can spit acid OR do a melee attack) give it wings and some demonic growth where mechanic bits should be, and boom chaos has a new type of jetbike unit that is clearly something new and chaosy but whose orgins CLEARLY lie in the heresy.

do this with a few chaos units and suddenly you can have a wide array of useful units filling niches that where left empty (just because something orginated as a old HH unit doesn't mean it will be filling the same role once chaos is done with it) and suddenly not only have you filled the gaps in the chaos line of battle, but you've made all the people who feel the old HH legions are poorly represented happier



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 05:49:34


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Table wrote:
That has nothing to do with you getting a WE or EC codex. I promise you, it is not coming this year. Or next year. Keep wishing however. It will make it come faster.
Sure thing buddy.

We'll just ignore the rumours of a WE Codex that come from a source that's yet to be wrong so far because you think it's "cute" that people might want such a thing. I mean, getting a WE Codex is just impossible. Like getting a DG Codex or 1KSons book, right? Or Primarchs. Or plastic Baneblades. Or any of the other things that people used to think utterly impossible and yet, here they are, real as anything. That's the point you missed, BTW. Completely missed. Over your head like a supersonic jet, it seems. Well done.

Unless you actually know something more than the rumours have suggested, then by all means tell us, or stow the attitude and take a hike, okeydokey?





Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 06:01:47


Post by: Racerguy180


The plague burst crawler is an arquitor bombard from 30k. We just got the model in 8th ed(m41/2) while 30k got it afterwards.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 06:11:37


Post by: Galas


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Agreed. And "something" means more than access to a single stratagem and psychic power, or just +1 to a single stat. For reference, please see: Chaos Space Marines 3.5: The Books of Chaos. Marks should do that.
Here's a hypothetical then:

Marks of Chaos vs Cult Troops

1. Cult Troops are just CSMs/Terminators/Chosen with the Mark. They are one and the same. For example, give a Mark of Khorne to a Chaos Marine, he's now a Berzerker.

2. Cult Troops are different to CSMs/Terminators/Chosen with the Mark. They represent two different things. For example, give a Mark of Nurgle to a Chosen Marine and he does not become a Plague Marine. He has some Nurgle-related buffs, but maybe not the same levels of Plague Marine-specific equipment, and not the full suite of rules that actual Plague Marines receive.

3. Cult Troops are just CSMs/Terminators/Chosen with the Mark but the Cult Legions get additional bonuses. So a CSM with a Mark of Slaanesh is the same thing as a Noise Marine, but an Emperor's Children Noise Marine is somehow better than them with slightly better rules.

I'm wondering what people prefer. Also, two caveats here are that 1KSons are 1KSons regardless. Mark of Tzeentch on CSM/Terminator = Rubric/Scarab Occult. They're not something you can separate, and that I'm just talking about basic units (CSM/Termies/Chosen, not vehicles, characters and the like).


I believe the 2 option is the more correct going by fluff and allows the greater flexibility ingame.

One chaos marine can be favoured by khorne and not be a berzerker. A berzerker is an specific thing, a marine with the butcher nails even if it isn't from the World Eaters Legion. One khorne marine can "go berzerker" but not be a proper "berzerker". The same goes for a plague marine. A Nurgle favoured chaos marine could end up reaching the point of being basically a plague lord or a plague marine but not just by being marked from nurgle.

That creates the conumdrun were you can have "Normal" chaos marines marked by a god that are more favoured by their god than a "cult troop". A 2000 yeard old nurgle chaos marine that has been following his god will be more relevant than a 100 yeard old recently created plague marine in barbarus factories. And he can have nurgle blessings but that doesnt mean he needs to be all bloated and plaguey. I mean look at Abaddon but in a smaller scale. You can have the god blessings and still be """"normal"""


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 06:43:39


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Are there non-WE with Butcher's Nails?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 06:48:43


Post by: Marshal Loss


Table wrote:
Again, what does that have to do with anything I have said.


Because you're not saying anything worth considering. WE and EC will inevitably get books; it's only a matter of time, whether it takes 6 months or 6 years. Stick your head in the sand all you want.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are there non-WE with Butcher's Nails?


Yes - e.g. the Black Legion have their own berzerker surgeons.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 06:50:41


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Oh cool. I didn't know that.

That changes how I view things. Thank you.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 07:16:06


Post by: macluvin


Chaos does need a lot of work and it seems like beyond the four god aligned legions we won’t be getting much of it in terms of rules, beyond a handful of hit or miss strats an extra wound on the profile and a swollen points cost for meq’s across the board. Maybe if we are really lucky they’ll give us the crappy half of the space marine chapter traits.
At this point I am hoping to encounter a gaming group that Is willing to experiment with home brewed rules until we make something fun for both players, or if I get real desperate, counts as everything I can as loyalists. That way I can have my spikes without paying the spike tax. We already are just loyalists except worse... but with dinobots.
I saw someone else saying that when their army is full of underperforming units and the power mismatch is too big they just start making their own objectives for themselves that don’t actually influence the games outcome in any way so they can feel good about how they played their army, and that is something I am considering doing as well.

Are there any ideas in terms of what you can do as a chaos space marine player? I think it’s generally a safe assumption that GW is going to miss the mark on the CSM codex and given how long I have spent watching my units explode and run away, I’m not keen on hoping that this time it will be different.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 07:44:26


Post by: pelicaniforce


 Galas wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:


2. Cult Troops are different to CSMs/Terminators/Chosen with the Mark. They represent two different things. For example, give a Mark of Nurgle to a Chosen Marine and he does not become a Plague Marine. He has some Nurgle-related buffs, but maybe not the same levels of Plague Marine-specific equipment, and not the full suite of rules that actual Plague Marines receive.
.


I believe the 2 option is the more correct going by fluff and allows the greater flexibility ingame.

. The same goes for a plague marine. A Nurgle favoured chaos marine could end up reaching the point of being basically a plague lord or a plague marine but not just by being marked from nurgle.


For gameplay this seems to be not at useful. It’s not just having unmarked, marked, and cult versions of everything, there are also things that have nothing to do with the big four like the raptor and obliterator cults.

I find this thing with everything having multiple grades of god affiliation for each for to be reductive. I think many things in any given army have identity totally unrelated to what god they are. These things should not have their own rules-palette swap from red rules to pink to blue to green rules, because some of them don’t qualify for the attention a god, and some of them have something else going on that actually excludes the his.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are there non-WE with Butcher's Nails?


The Berzerker Lord of actually two different allied berzerker war bands from the Siege of Vraks, Zhufor, started out in the loyalist Storm Lords. He was captured, given berserker surgery, fought his way to the top of that war and, then gained control of another one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:


2. Cult Troops are different to CSMs/Terminators/Chosen with the Mark. They represent two different things. For example, give a Mark of Nurgle to a Chosen Marine and he does not become a Plague Marine. He has some Nurgle-related buffs, but maybe not the same levels of Plague Marine-specific equipment, and not the full suite of rules that actual Plague Marines receive.
.


I believe the 2 option is the more correct going by fluff and allows the greater flexibility ingame.

. The same goes for a plague marine. A Nurgle favoured chaos marine could end up reaching the point of being basically a plague lord or a plague marine but not just by being marked from nurgle.


For gameplay this seems to be not at useful. It’s not just having unmarked, marked, and cult versions of everything, there are also things that have nothing to do with the big four like the raptor and obliterator cults.

I find this thing with everything having multiple grades of god affiliation for each for to be reductive. I think many things in any given army have identity totally unrelated to what god they are. These things should not have their own rules-palette swap from red rules to pink to blue to green rules, because some of them don’t qualify for the attention a god, and some of them have something else going on that actually excludes the his.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Are there non-WE with Butcher's Nails?


The Berzerker Lord of actually two different allied berzerker war bands from the Siege of Vraks, Zhufor, started out in the loyalist Storm Lords. He was captured, given berserker surgery, fought his way to the top of that war and, then gained control of another one.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/15 08:15:27


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Table wrote:
That has nothing to do with you getting a WE or EC codex. I promise you, it is not coming this year.
Being out-of-touch enough to not know GW explicitly stated weeks ago there would be no Chaos codex of any type this year speaks poorly to one's credibility.

Table wrote:
Not be caustic, but
It was.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 01:04:54


Post by: Gadzilla666


H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Agreed. And "something" means more than access to a single stratagem and psychic power, or just +1 to a single stat. For reference, please see: Chaos Space Marines 3.5: The Books of Chaos. Marks should do that.
Here's a hypothetical then:

Marks of Chaos vs Cult Troops

1. Cult Troops are just CSMs/Terminators/Chosen with the Mark. They are one and the same. For example, give a Mark of Khorne to a Chaos Marine, he's now a Berzerker.

2. Cult Troops are different to CSMs/Terminators/Chosen with the Mark. They represent two different things. For example, give a Mark of Nurgle to a Chosen Marine and he does not become a Plague Marine. He has some Nurgle-related buffs, but maybe not the same levels of Plague Marine-specific equipment, and not the full suite of rules that actual Plague Marines receive.

3. Cult Troops are just CSMs/Terminators/Chosen with the Mark but the Cult Legions get additional bonuses. So a CSM with a Mark of Slaanesh is the same thing as a Noise Marine, but an Emperor's Children Noise Marine is somehow better than them with slightly better rules.

I'm wondering what people prefer. Also, two caveats here are that 1KSons are 1KSons regardless. Mark of Tzeentch on CSM/Terminator = Rubric/Scarab Occult. They're not something you can separate, and that I'm just talking about basic units (CSM/Termies/Chosen, not vehicles, characters and the like).

Personally, I'd prefer number 2. If CSM, Chosen, etc with a mark are just Plague Marines, Khorne Berzerkers, etc, then what's the point in those actual units? It should be entirely possible for a CSM, Chosen, or Havoc to carry the Mark of a Chaos God without being a full Cult Marine. Basically, I'd make Marks work for units in the way they did in 3.5, minus the rule that CSM become the Cult Marines of that particular God when taking that Mark. It worked that way in 3.5 because Cult Marines weren't distinct units in that codex, but they are now, and they should remain distinct.

BrianDavion wrote:One thing IMHO GW needs to do with future models etc from a visual standpoint is lean a bit into the Hellbrute a bit, by that I mean the hellbrute is something whose orgins are clear. but at the same time it's been mutated and corrupted by Chaos. GW needs to take some stuff from the HH line and give it the "hellbrute treatment"

heck here's an idea, take the scimitar pattern jetbike, replace the heavy weapon mounted in the front with some some of demonic mouth (that can spit acid OR do a melee attack) give it wings and some demonic growth where mechanic bits should be, and boom chaos has a new type of jetbike unit that is clearly something new and chaosy but whose orgins CLEARLY lie in the heresy.

do this with a few chaos units and suddenly you can have a wide array of useful units filling niches that where left empty (just because something orginated as a old HH unit doesn't mean it will be filling the same role once chaos is done with it) and suddenly not only have you filled the gaps in the chaos line of battle, but you've made all the people who feel the old HH legions are poorly represented happier


You do realize that a lot of CSM players don't use Hellbrutes because they're mutated, right? They want the HH Legions represented with actual HH units, not something that resembles them with tentacles growing out of it. Those jetbikes you just described sound suspiciously like Plague Drones. If you like daemon engines, you should be able to play daemon engines, and if you like Legion vehicles, you should be able to play Legion vehicles. I don't see any reason to combine the two.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 01:47:59


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I honestly have no idea how they are going to treat CSM. I actually really like how they have done Tsons and Deathguard. I picked up both armies seriously when their 9th edition codex dropped and I haven't looked back.

Years of loyalty to CSM, and in the end, I found that Tsons and Deathguard are so cool and fun to play now. And what's more, they are fluffy too. The lists I make for Tsons and Deathguard all feel very fluffy to their lore. I am having a blast playing with Deathshroud, Blightlords, Occults, Rubrics marines, Plague marines. After so many years, I am finally able to play a chaos space marines army and not feel like I am playing CSM cultists, or CSM Daemon Engines, or inferior spiky marines (1W? No Transhuman?, using AP 0 bolters? A Chaplain on a bike with litany of hate and fury will chop up any chaos lord I can field against it. I don't even know what CSM marines have going for them... they are outfought, less durable, and outshot. They are just "cheap" in points and that's about it...).

I honestly don't know how they are going to treat the CSM codex, and I have no idea how to make it work either. I will just play Tsons and Deathguard in the meantime while waiting.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 02:14:58


Post by: BrianDavion


 Gadzilla666 wrote:

You do realize that a lot of CSM players don't use Hellbrutes because they're mutated, right? They want the HH Legions represented with actual HH units, not something that resembles them with tentacles growing out of it. Those jetbikes you just described sound suspiciously like Plague Drones. If you like daemon engines, you should be able to play daemon engines, and if you like Legion vehicles, you should be able to play Legion vehicles. I don't see any reason to combine the two.


the horus heresy was ten thousand years ago. expecting chaos not to have changed in ten thousand years is absurd.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 02:41:54


Post by: Gadzilla666


BrianDavion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

You do realize that a lot of CSM players don't use Hellbrutes because they're mutated, right? They want the HH Legions represented with actual HH units, not something that resembles them with tentacles growing out of it. Those jetbikes you just described sound suspiciously like Plague Drones. If you like daemon engines, you should be able to play daemon engines, and if you like Legion vehicles, you should be able to play Legion vehicles. I don't see any reason to combine the two.



the horus heresy was ten thousand years ago. expecting chaos not to have changed in ten thousand years is absurd.

Oh, they have. Many have fully embraced the Chaos Gods, and become everything from Cult Marines to full on Possessed. And many have traded their tanks and dreadnoughts for daemon engines. Others have stuck to the Old Ways, while others are somewhere in between. Having both daemon engines and Heresy era units allows for players to choose which they want to represent. Making everything effectively a daemon engine takes away that choice.

And all CSM aren't 10,000 years old, because time doesn't work the same in the Eye.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 03:29:21


Post by: AnomanderRake


BrianDavion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

You do realize that a lot of CSM players don't use Hellbrutes because they're mutated, right? They want the HH Legions represented with actual HH units, not something that resembles them with tentacles growing out of it. Those jetbikes you just described sound suspiciously like Plague Drones. If you like daemon engines, you should be able to play daemon engines, and if you like Legion vehicles, you should be able to play Legion vehicles. I don't see any reason to combine the two.


the horus heresy was ten thousand years ago. expecting chaos not to have changed in ten thousand years is absurd.


And yet the loyalists still have their Cataphractii/Tartaros and we don't. Riddle me that.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 03:54:44


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 AnomanderRake wrote:
And yet the loyalists still have their Cataphractii/Tartaros and we don't. Riddle me that.
But now they're treated the same in the rules for loyalists because *mumble mumble* reasons *mumble mumble*...


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 05:23:46


Post by: drbored


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
And yet the loyalists still have their Cataphractii/Tartaros and we don't. Riddle me that.
But now they're treated the same in the rules for loyalists because *mumble mumble* reasons *mumble mumble*...


GW giveth and GW taketh away.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 07:07:07


Post by: macluvin


The irony is that cataphractii termis don’t benefit loyalists as much as traitors because they have access to storm shields...


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 09:07:25


Post by: Eldenfirefly


macluvin wrote:
The irony is that cataphractii termis don’t benefit loyalists as much as traitors because they have access to storm shields...


And why is a 3++ invul save still even a thing at this point? They removed it from Knights, from Magnus, from Tsons, etc. 4++ should be the best you can get regardless of what variety of terminator, relic, or whatever armor you are using.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 10:01:20


Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


Eldenfirefly wrote:
macluvin wrote:
The irony is that cataphractii termis don’t benefit loyalists as much as traitors because they have access to storm shields...


And why is a 3++ invul save still even a thing at this point? They removed it from Knights, from Magnus, from Tsons, etc. 4++ should be the best you can get regardless of what variety of terminator, relic, or whatever armor you are using.


Storm shields no longer give 3++ to anyone except Custodes (even then, by virtue of Custodes pure army ability), Storm shields are 4++ and +1 to Armour.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 10:30:15


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Even so, limiting invulnerable saves to a specific number is arbitrary. Yes, the higher than number the more powerful it is, but the same power should be tempered with other rules, points costs, and rarity.

I don't think everything in an army should have a 3+ Invul save, but something like a Custodes - very expensive models that come in incredibly small numbers - doesn't seem too outlandish to me.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 10:58:27


Post by: Galas


The problem of having 3++ in custodes is that you have to give the other custodes rules banana bonuses to even compete with that.

And theres some stuff that keeps the 3++, like Kaldor Draigo. But now you cannot pay 2ppm to have all your space marine army with a 3++.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 14:40:28


Post by: Table


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Table wrote:
That has nothing to do with you getting a WE or EC codex. I promise you, it is not coming this year. Or next year. Keep wishing however. It will make it come faster.
Sure thing buddy.

We'll just ignore the rumours of a WE Codex that come from a source that's yet to be wrong so far because you think it's "cute" that people might want such a thing. I mean, getting a WE Codex is just impossible. Like getting a DG Codex or 1KSons book, right? Or Primarchs. Or plastic Baneblades. Or any of the other things that people used to think utterly impossible and yet, here they are, real as anything. That's the point you missed, BTW. Completely missed. Over your head like a supersonic jet, it seems. Well done.

Unless you actually know something more than the rumours have suggested, then by all means tell us, or stow the attitude and take a hike, okeydokey?





How can the WE have a codex when they are not a legion? Id say those rumors should be taken with heavy grains of salt. What is bigger than a grain? Well, I would take the rumors with that amount of salt.
Again, false equivalencies do not make you right. All the things you have mentioned have nothing to do with a future WE or EC codex. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. EC are not popular as a legion, currently. WE are a dead legion, I mean I guess they could reform under Angron for a new bloodparty, but we saw what happened the last time Angron was in realspace. Now, if you are talking about a KDK or SDK codex that may drop I would be inclined to say maybe. As it stands players have been wish listing for years about a new KDK codex and a EC codex. Heck, I remember at the start of 8th that Fulgrim was coming for sure and we would have a EC codex. How did that work out? I mean look at how long it took to get a 9th codex for CM and TK. Two factions that badly need/ed one. And you are expecting a WE codex by the end of the year? And we are in half way to October?

I would love to be wrong about all of this. I love chaos marines. My first boys and my favorite boys. Any buffs/releases would be most welcome. Heck, id do a rain dance in the nude if I thought it would help getting a KDK or EC codex. All I am saying (perhaps in a more dismissive tone that I would liked) is that we have wanted these things for 5+ years and we had rumors then to. Ill entertain the idea of maybe next summer for one or both once all the codex's are released. More than likely will be released as a campaign book. Well see. Hope I am wrong.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 15:04:38


Post by: Gert


Table wrote:
[How can the WE have a codex when they are not a legion?

This bit was funny. Nice joke

WE are a dead legion, I mean I guess they could reform under Angron for a new bloodparty, but we saw what happened the last time Angron was in realspace.

I mean, the First War for Armageddon was kind of a big deal. In M.38, the Dominion of Fire was 200 years of Angron and the World Eaters rampaging through the Imperium, it took 4 Chapters, 2 Titan Legions and 30 Guard Regiments to stop it and the Imperium has taken almost 3k years to recover 90% of the territory they lost during the Dominion.
Also, you do know that all Chaos Space Marine forces operate as Warbands right? Like all of them. There isn't a single fully united Traitor Legion, not even the Black Legion.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 15:33:45


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Well the rumour guy who talked about World Eaters was just proven completely right, again, with the new Upgraded Pathfinders vs Sisters Initiative Kill-Team box.

So... maybe don't doubt him?



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 15:56:08


Post by: Dudeface


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well the rumour guy who talked about World Eaters was just proven completely right, again, with the new Upgraded Pathfinders vs Sisters Initiative Kill-Team box.

So... maybe don't doubt him?



From the list of stuff coming for chaos next year I think a lot of problems might be fixed via new sculpts and units. Having all the mortals in there is an interesting take but I'm all for more options!


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 20:58:35


Post by: Marshal Loss


EC not popular? WE not a legion? KDK or SDK more likely?

That post is going to age well.

In any case, with the rumours looking more and more likely to be completely accurate, I am very excited for new Chosen & Possessed.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 21:22:31


Post by: drbored


Dudeface wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well the rumour guy who talked about World Eaters was just proven completely right, again, with the new Upgraded Pathfinders vs Sisters Initiative Kill-Team box.

So... maybe don't doubt him?



From the list of stuff coming for chaos next year I think a lot of problems might be fixed via new sculpts and units. Having all the mortals in there is an interesting take but I'm all for more options!


Yeah, I'm hoping that with new models comes new options for those models and new life breathed into the army as a whole. My concern with more of the mortals means the codex will feel less and less like 'Chaos Space Marines' and more like 'Renegades and Heretics', but we'll see how they handle it. My fear is that we'll see armies that have almost no Chaos Space Marine units at all. It'll be dino-bots supported by mortals, demons, and other stuff, and nary a power armored dude to be seen. Wouldn't that be hilarious?

On the note of 3++ saves, you can math it all you want, but the fact of the matter is that 3++ saves are NOT fun to play against. Results become far too swing-y, even with 4++ saves, and even low-toughness models like Harlequins can require far too much firepower to remove. I could go on and on, but I'm just not a fan of the current AP system of the game and the rise of invulns and mortal wounds. It's clearly gotten to a point where GW have had to pull back on invul saves for a variety of forces, like Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle, because of how -good- they can be against certain armies.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 21:38:18


Post by: mrFickle


 AnomanderRake wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

You do realize that a lot of CSM players don't use Hellbrutes because they're mutated, right? They want the HH Legions represented with actual HH units, not something that resembles them with tentacles growing out of it. Those jetbikes you just described sound suspiciously like Plague Drones. If you like daemon engines, you should be able to play daemon engines, and if you like Legion vehicles, you should be able to play Legion vehicles. I don't see any reason to combine the two.


the horus heresy was ten thousand years ago. expecting chaos not to have changed in ten thousand years is absurd.


And yet the loyalists still have their Cataphractii/Tartaros and we don't. Riddle me that.


Because CSM were created to be evil 2nd Ed space marines but then GW changed their minds and didn’t update CSM along with loyalists even when it made total sense.

Abbadon is in a 40K version of terminator armour isn’t he? He should be in Cataphractii/Tartaros


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 21:45:41


Post by: BrianDavion


 AnomanderRake wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

You do realize that a lot of CSM players don't use Hellbrutes because they're mutated, right? They want the HH Legions represented with actual HH units, not something that resembles them with tentacles growing out of it. Those jetbikes you just described sound suspiciously like Plague Drones. If you like daemon engines, you should be able to play daemon engines, and if you like Legion vehicles, you should be able to play Legion vehicles. I don't see any reason to combine the two.


the horus heresy was ten thousand years ago. expecting chaos not to have changed in ten thousand years is absurd.


And yet the loyalists still have their Cataphractii/Tartaros and we don't. Riddle me that.


take a good look at 1k son and death guard terminators, notice something? GW made the decision to do with them exactly what I've been saying they should do. use old HH models as the basis for something new for chaos.



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 21:49:35


Post by: PaddyMick


The best solution to making chaos great again would be to bring back Andy Chambers to the design team.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 21:53:31


Post by: BrianDavion


 PaddyMick wrote:
The best solution to making chaos great again would be to bring back Andy Chambers to the design team.


Ultimately what chaos needs is a solid vision and a persuit of that vision. instead of the wishy washy mess we've got now where IMHO ti feels like GW doesn't want to commit to any vision. obviously some outliers might be in a weird place simply because they simply don't work with the vision, but it'd be better then the dull flavourless rules equivilant to gruel that CSMs currently are. and if what emerges doesn't work with emperor's children, given them their own codex!


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 21:56:56


Post by: Gert


It's the problem of Chaos being a chaotic faction that really should be able to be represented in many ways but GW just can't find a way to put all of these ways into the same book and make them worth it. Cultist hordes led by a small core of CSM, heavy-hitting Daemon Forge packs, small elite teams of Astartes. All are a thing but none are.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 22:12:05


Post by: BrianDavion


 Gert wrote:
It's the problem of Chaos being a chaotic faction that really should be able to be represented in many ways but GW just can't find a way to put all of these ways into the same book and make them worth it. Cultist hordes led by a small core of CSM, heavy-hitting Daemon Forge packs, small elite teams of Astartes. All are a thing but none are.



really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 22:34:51


Post by: drbored


 Gert wrote:
It's the problem of Chaos being a chaotic faction that really should be able to be represented in many ways but GW just can't find a way to put all of these ways into the same book and make them worth it. Cultist hordes led by a small core of CSM, heavy-hitting Daemon Forge packs, small elite teams of Astartes. All are a thing but none are.


This I agree with. We've seen how GW can do really great Battletomes and Codexes with multiple army builds (one of my favorite being Gloomspite Gitz for the sheer range of ways you can build those armies), and yet Chaos Space Marines struggles to find an identity.

You've still got ancient space marine tanks with spikey bits latched on rolling up alongside daemon engines fresh from the forge, but they need completely different support elements to do well and tend to overlap roles. You've got cultists that have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed again because they keep outshining what should be the stars of the codex: the actual Chaos Marines. We've got so many options for Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords, but there's still only one or two loadouts of each that are good, and they bring no exciting rules to the table to support their army other than the typical re-roll 1's to hit.

And the saddest part is that this is the way it's been for a decade.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 23:06:52


Post by: H.B.M.C.


BrianDavion wrote:
really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs
I hate the idea that "MOAR BOOKZ!" is the answer, but I don't have any better solution than a suite of Chaos-related supplements.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/16 23:47:57


Post by: drbored


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs
I hate the idea that "MOAR BOOKZ!" is the answer, but I don't have any better solution than a suite of Chaos-related supplements.


One part is that other factions also have a lot of books. Our ugly stepbrother the Space Marines have tons of books and as a result, tons of options, both for named and generic characters, fleshed out Chapter rules, and a butt-load of stratagems. Where Space Marines have gotten Primaris, Chaos Marines have gone with other stuff, like cultists and dinobots, but without the same breadth of Legion rules and with less synergy of options.

The other part is that Chaos Marines are really varied. If the rumors are true and we're getting expanded Cultist options, then that helps plug a little bit of that gap, but it also tugs us further away from the typical Legions that people might want to play, and still leaves a lot of other gaps in the rules and model range that need to be closed off. If you want to go with Daemon Engines, you're in a pretty decent place, with the Master of Possession, Warpsmith, and the Lord Discordant, but if you want to go with the classic Chaos Marine Legions, there's very little cohesiveness between the vehicles and marines.

We can certainly go the way of 'less bookz' but GW have shown no interest in going that direction, and it would mean stripping away a lot of options that other factions have gotten for the sake of simplicity.

Now that I say that, watch the Chaos Marine book be the first in GW's attempt to 'strip down' 9th edition back and be the first, and worst, of a line of downgrades.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 00:00:16


Post by: Eldarain


Power level aside the fact so many of their entries/options are so regimented and limited is really odd when it's the wild west in hell whenever we see what eye space is like.

If they don't do Ninth's three books of distinction approach a build your own identity book could work.

Use the HH rites of war as an inspiration for how small adjustments can make meaningful distinctions.

Have a range of possibilities from the more Legion strength entities like BL or WB all the way down to the Cult of Personality gangs with a more Deathwatch style mixed units to capture the random warband vibe.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 00:35:45


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs
I hate the idea that "MOAR BOOKZ!" is the answer, but I don't have any better solution than a suite of Chaos-related supplements.


Yeah... I still remember needing codex 2.0, vigilus ablaze, Faith and Fury, and whatever else PA book just to play one CSM army... and it wasn't even that great of list either... zzzzz.....


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 00:57:35


Post by: BrianDavion


Eldenfirefly wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs
I hate the idea that "MOAR BOOKZ!" is the answer, but I don't have any better solution than a suite of Chaos-related supplements.


Yeah... I still remember needing codex 2.0, vigilus ablaze, Faith and Fury, and whatever else PA book just to play one CSM army... and it wasn't even that great of list either... zzzzz.....



thats because all the books did was give additional strats etc. and that alone isn't eneugh to diffrentiate an army


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 01:03:23


Post by: Eldenfirefly


At this point, I would stick to my Tsons and DG for a more competitive match play game.

Want me to bring out my CSM, we can have a narrative game where I bring 5000 points of CSM to your 2000 points and your objective is to make that glorious last stand. Heroes dig that sort of stuff anyway, and Chaos never fights fair.

Let me charge forward with Rhinos filled with Berzerkers, Abby dropping with obliterators from deep strike, Warp Talons and Chaos Bikes zooming up the sides, An armor column of Predator tanks led by a LR with teminators in it advancing up from the left flank, A lord of Skulls with Venom crawlers led by a Lord of Discordant moving up the right flank. Then I can show you the true glory of a proper CSM assault !!!


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 01:30:22


Post by: Gadzilla666


Marshal Loss wrote:EC not popular? WE not a legion? KDK or SDK more likely?

That post is going to age well.

In any case, with the rumours looking more and more likely to be completely accurate, I am very excited for new Chosen & Possessed.

Same. Especially Chosen. I really want to see how they handle their rules, but I'm worried the models themselves will scream "YUP, WE'RE BLACK LEGION". Hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs
I hate the idea that "MOAR BOOKZ!" is the answer, but I don't have any better solution than a suite of Chaos-related supplements.

Yeah, I don't want to have to use multiple books, but I don't know how they'll fit everything in one. I think I like the idea of a Traitor Legions supplement the most. One book for all of the Legions.

BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
really if any army would benifit from supplements it's CSMs
I hate the idea that "MOAR BOOKZ!" is the answer, but I don't have any better solution than a suite of Chaos-related supplements.


Yeah... I still remember needing codex 2.0, vigilus ablaze, Faith and Fury, and whatever else PA book just to play one CSM army... and it wasn't even that great of list either... zzzzz.....



thats because all the books did was give additional strats etc. and that alone isn't eneugh to diffrentiate an army

Other than those things and Legion traits, what else is there to differentiate the Legions, considering they'll all be pulling from the same pool of units? Assuming every Legion gets a supplement, how would you differentiate say, Night Lords and Word Bearers, beyond those things? Give each Legion something the others don't get, like 3.5?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 01:51:51


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Actually, the recent Book of Fire consolidated all of the faith and fury and PA CSM rules into one book. So we can play with just two books now. The Book of Fire and our 8th ed codex 2.0.

Quality of life improvements! lol


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 03:27:11


Post by: drbored


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Actually, the recent Book of Fire consolidated all of the faith and fury and PA CSM rules into one book. So we can play with just two books now. The Book of Fire and our 8th ed codex 2.0.

Quality of life improvements! lol


True, though it's still rough that in order to put away the two books that you got, you have to buy a third book... So the issue of money spent is still a thing.

But yeah, I'm looking forward to new Chosen and Possessed. I wouldn't be surprised if the Chosen are kitted out to be a Kill Team-style box, like we saw for Krieg and now we are seeing for the Sisters Novitiates. Plenty of characterful options for Kill Team, but also a more 'standard' loadout for regular 40k.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 05:09:24


Post by: ccs


mrFickle wrote:


Abbadon is in a 40K version of terminator armour isn’t he? He should be in Cataphractii/Tartaros


Why? Is he not allowed to change costumes in 10k years?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 07:31:01


Post by: AnomanderRake


mrFickle wrote:
...Abbadon is in a 40K version of terminator armour isn’t he? He should be in Cataphractii/Tartaros


Technically not; his armour isn't a general pattern, it's a custom suit that's better than normal Terminator armour (in 30k it's called "Justaerin warplate" and gives 2+/4++ like Cataphractii but lets you Sweep normally like Tartaros). And even then Indomitus-pattern armour ("40k Terminator armour") was plenty widespread during the Heresy.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 08:23:34


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Given how ancient it is, plus it must have received favors from the dark gods and all, it should really be at least as good as a Storm Shield...


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 13:40:36


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Given how ancient it is, plus it must have received favors from the dark gods and all, it should really be at least as good as a Storm Shield...



It does, its got a 4++ and halves all damage taken.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 14:18:15


Post by: some bloke


I'd love to see chaos feel more archaic. I haven't played chaos for several editions (I do have a box of chaos but it's very outdated), but unless things have changed greatly, they are supposed to be based around older technology and daemonic power. I'd love to see "lost technology" mixed with "Daemon engine" to make some unique units which resemble those you find in 30k, but after 10k years of daemonic warpage.



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 19:33:14


Post by: pelicaniforce


 PaddyMick wrote:
The best solution to making chaos great again would be to bring back Andy Chambers to the design team.


I think about Andy Chambers a lot, and still have the 2002 chaos codex. The thing is that his rules permanently mangled the game, the background, the players, the meta, and particularly relevant to chaos space marines.

At one point, any marine, any model with strength 4, got -1 ap in close combat. A chaos marine was special by itself. Then when the edition changed to third, you then had to use more-specialer units to get any kind of AP. Chaos marines. Chaos marines were demoted. Their bolt guns don’t affect any army’s saves, and with ap5 didn’t effect most armies the either. If you want to shoot in the 2002 dex you need noise marines or plasma gun caddies. Marines don’t do anything, they’re just there. Of course chaos armies take anything as troops but basic marine. If loyalists had cultists they might not waste time with basic marines either.

It’s what happened to loyalist assault squads. http://www.irondogstudios.com/images/Ultra/ultra1.jpg" target="_new" rel="nofollow">They used to get power weapons. Then they lost the power weapons, and were a bit pointless, and then Vanguard Vets were invented, and assault squads continue to stand around looking useless. Chaos marines are just there, being bodies.

Andy Chambers letting us pay points for furious charge doesn’t change that. You just save the points and spend it on a unit that can take power weapons.

drbored wrote:
they keep outshining what should be the stars of the codex: the actual Chaos Marines.


Yeah, in games the basic marine troops can’t do much heavy lifting by themselves but in other armies sometimes they can.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 21:01:39


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Of all the races, Chaos has probably changed the most since the earliest days, both in terms of aesthetics, background and army style.

And from reading through this thread, I think that’s an underlying problem. They’ve been through so many different iterations, there are a wide variety of wants and preferences in the player base.

Now I am not going to say anyone iteration is better, worse or preferred etc. But they do need to be unified. That’s not quite the right word, but close enough.

So those who really like the original “small warbands of loonies, lead by a powerful champion” should be able to do that, whilst people wanting Remnants Of The Legions style should be able to do that, too. And everything in between.

But I’m not sure that can be done in a single Codex.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 22:04:19


Post by: Gert


It's the one thing the Traitor Legions formations did well IMO. You had your core Warband but then could take different smaller formations to supplement it. You could go bare minimum on the core then splurge on Daemon Engine Packs or Raptor Hosts, or you could go heavy into the main one and build a proper Warband. The Cult Legions even had their own special core Warbands.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/17 23:02:58


Post by: Gadzilla666


Ugh. The only thing I didn't like about Traitor Legions was the inclusion of formations. They basically said "Oh, you want ALL of your Legion's rules? Well, then buy/play the models WE want you to buy/play. Otherwise, you get HALF of your rules". And of course, fw wasn't on the menu.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/18 02:42:45


Post by: drbored


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Of all the races, Chaos has probably changed the most since the earliest days, both in terms of aesthetics, background and army style.

And from reading through this thread, I think that’s an underlying problem. They’ve been through so many different iterations, there are a wide variety of wants and preferences in the player base.

Now I am not going to say anyone iteration is better, worse or preferred etc. But they do need to be unified. That’s not quite the right word, but close enough.

So those who really like the original “small warbands of loonies, lead by a powerful champion” should be able to do that, whilst people wanting Remnants Of The Legions style should be able to do that, too. And everything in between.

But I’m not sure that can be done in a single Codex.


I think they could, they just need to use the models that they have (and that are coming) to close gaps in both the range and the rules. I think I mentioned it before, but I'd like to see them let you build these 3 different 'themes' of army, and it should be doable.

A. Chaos Marine Legions
-These armies would be full of regular Chaos Marines, typical vehicles (Predator, Vindicator, Land Raider), and other tac-ons, like Havocs, Bikers, and Terminators. These armies would benefit the most from Legion Traits since most of the units would have the 'Heretic Astartes' keywords, and therefore would be affected by those sorts of traits and stratagems.

B. Daemon Engine Warband
-These armies would have plenty of units with the Daemon keyword. Lead by a Master of Possession, Daemon Prince, or Greater Possessed, they'd have the stuff you'd expect, from Possessed and Spawn, to Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Defilers, and Venomcrawlers. Taking full advantage of their chaotic nature through stratagems, improved invulnerable saves, and higher toughness, you could have quite a beastly army.

C. Cultist Uprising
-Motivated to rise up against the Imperium by a Dark Apostle or charismatic Chaos Lord, these would focus on Cultists and upcoming rumored things, like traitor guard, mutants, and other things that are rumored to be coming. Chaos Marines could still form an elite backbone to this themed force, but you could otherwise focus on mobs of cultists and their support elements. These would be units that wouldn't have either the Heretic Astartes NOR the Daemon keyword, but maybe have a 'Cultist' or 'Renegade' keyword.

And then of course you'd have the option to mix and match however you see fit. The trend for GW however is that old models suck and new models rock, so I'm fully expecting that those that want a Chaos Marine Legion are going to be disappointed with how Raptors, Warp Talons, or any of the Chaos Marine classic vehicles operate, and they likely won't improve on those. Meanwhile, Cultist Uprising type units are going to be the new hotness, so I'm expecting that theme of army to be busted and awesome, while the Daemon Engine Warband was yesterday's hotness and will likely get nerfed. Because of this tendency, nobody will be happy except those that always wanted the Renegades and Heretics army to become a thing, which will drown out everyone that just wanted to play their Alpha Legion or Black Legion without all the extra junk.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/18 04:07:01


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Seeing how badly cultists have been nerfed over time, and how GW have restricted the use of cultists (mere mortals) and taken away keywords (like obsec) from them. I wouldn't get my hopes up that cultist uprising is somehow going to be the new hotness.

Just look at what is unique to CSM and not Tsons and DG. That would likely be the more buffed units in the CSM codex would be my guess.

So, it will be the following (not counting the HQs):

Obliterators, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Possessed, Venomcrawlers, Havocs, possibly Lord of Skulls. (Not a very big list honestly).

If you include HQs: All the unique named characters, Master of Execution, Dark Apostle, Master of Possession, Warpsmith, Lord Discordant. (But don't count on this, HQs can't win the game all by themselves).

Everything else will be similar to space marine firstborn stats, so don't expect anything except that 1 more wound. We have already seen the new stats of Defilers, Helldrakes, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Hellbrutes, Chaos Spawn and all the astartes vehicles too, so don't expect anything different.

There might be army wide legion or warband rules that propel a particular type of CSM army into the OP zone, but I wouldn't bet on it.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/18 05:14:17


Post by: drbored


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Seeing how badly cultists have been nerfed over time, and how GW have restricted the use of cultists (mere mortals) and taken away keywords (like obsec) from them. I wouldn't get my hopes up that cultist uprising is somehow going to be the new hotness.

Just look at what is unique to CSM and not Tsons and DG. That would likely be the more buffed units in the CSM codex would be my guess.

So, it will be the following (not counting the HQs):

Obliterators, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Possessed, Venomcrawlers, Havocs, possibly Lord of Skulls. (Not a very big list honestly).

If you include HQs: All the unique named characters, Master of Execution, Dark Apostle, Master of Possession, Warpsmith, Lord Discordant. (But don't count on this, HQs can't win the game all by themselves).

Everything else will be similar to space marine firstborn stats, so don't expect anything except that 1 more wound. We have already seen the new stats of Defilers, Helldrakes, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Hellbrutes, Chaos Spawn and all the astartes vehicles too, so don't expect anything different.

There might be army wide legion or warband rules that propel a particular type of CSM army into the OP zone, but I wouldn't bet on it.


This is where I'd love for Chaos Marines to get their own identity, instead of just being Space Marines with spikes. I don't give a flying octagon of crap about OP zone, and nobody is saying that stuff should be OP. We should just not feel like we're punished for playing with the toys we like, which has been a consistent issue with Chaos Marines for a long while now. Heck, taking Obliterators with any mark other than Slaanesh is like purposefully using dice that don't have any 6's on them.

And what I'm going off of is essentially the rumordump that happened a while back that suggested we're getting:
Chaos Cultists
Traitor Guard
Mutated Mortals
Cultist Icon Bearer
Cultist Character w/Bodyguard

on top of the Possessed, Bikers, Chosen, and Warpsmith. With all those kits focused around Cultists, I'd be surprised if the goal wasn't to have some sort of 'Cult Uprising' type playstyle army out of the book. My worry is that it will come at the expense of the classic Legion type lists.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/18 05:45:12


Post by: Gadzilla666


drbored wrote:
Spoiler:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Seeing how badly cultists have been nerfed over time, and how GW have restricted the use of cultists (mere mortals) and taken away keywords (like obsec) from them. I wouldn't get my hopes up that cultist uprising is somehow going to be the new hotness.

Just look at what is unique to CSM and not Tsons and DG. That would likely be the more buffed units in the CSM codex would be my guess.

So, it will be the following (not counting the HQs):

Obliterators, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Possessed, Venomcrawlers, Havocs, possibly Lord of Skulls. (Not a very big list honestly).

If you include HQs: All the unique named characters, Master of Execution, Dark Apostle, Master of Possession, Warpsmith, Lord Discordant. (But don't count on this, HQs can't win the game all by themselves).

Everything else will be similar to space marine firstborn stats, so don't expect anything except that 1 more wound. We have already seen the new stats of Defilers, Helldrakes, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Hellbrutes, Chaos Spawn and all the astartes vehicles too, so don't expect anything different.

There might be army wide legion or warband rules that propel a particular type of CSM army into the OP zone, but I wouldn't bet on it.


This is where I'd love for Chaos Marines to get their own identity, instead of just being Space Marines with spikes. I don't give a flying octagon of crap about OP zone, and nobody is saying that stuff should be OP. We should just not feel like we're punished for playing with the toys we like, which has been a consistent issue with Chaos Marines for a long while now. Heck, taking Obliterators with any mark other than Slaanesh is like purposefully using dice that don't have any 6's on them.

And what I'm going off of is essentially the rumordump that happened a while back that suggested we're getting:
Chaos Cultists
Traitor Guard
Mutated Mortals
Cultist Icon Bearer
Cultist Character w/Bodyguard

on top of the Possessed, Bikers, Chosen, and Warpsmith. With all those kits focused around Cultists, I'd be surprised if the goal wasn't to have some sort of 'Cult Uprising' type playstyle army out of the book. My worry is that it will come at the expense of the classic Legion type lists.

As you pointed out, we're also getting several new kits for actual Astartes units: Possessed, Bikers, Warpsmith, and Chosen. So they're paying attention to our Astartes stuff as well. I'm most interested in what they do with the Chosen. They've been paying a lot of attention to them the last couple of years for a unit that doesn't even have models to sell. How many other units got rules updates in Vigilus/CSM "2" that didn't get new models, much less ones without models?

And most of those "human" units probably won't be getting whatever our "Astartes" keyword is going to be (it won't be <HERETIC ASTARTES>, it's a secondary keyword in Thousand Sons and Death Guard, even the daemon engines have it. <BUBONIC ASTARTES> and <ARCANA ASTARTES> are what sets the actual Astartes units apart). Depending on what that does, it could be important. Maybe we'll get lucky, and it'll be something like <VETERAN OF THE LONG WAR>, and give everything with it +1 WS/BS. Or maybe it'll just give +1 Leadership. But I'd wait to see before counting our Marines out.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/18 06:04:32


Post by: drbored


Yeah, getting Bikers and Chosen is going to go a long way to filling up the gaps that we have in the range, and hopefully they do get decent rules.

I'm just not going to hope for anything. It's been hard for me to enjoy Chaos Marines ever since 5th edition, and I'm not betting that this will be any different. :/


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/18 15:19:03


Post by: Gadzilla666


I think it's also a mistake to assume our Astartes will be getting "firstborn stats". Looking at other "non-vanilla" Astartes factions like Grey Knights, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons, it's possible our Astartes will have a little more "oomph" than firstborn.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/18 17:13:31


Post by: Gert


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ugh. The only thing I didn't like about Traitor Legions was the inclusion of formations. They basically said "Oh, you want ALL of your Legion's rules? Well, then buy/play the models WE want you to buy/play. Otherwise, you get HALF of your rules". And of course, fw wasn't on the menu.

I know the FW stuff wasn't available but I don't really think it was "buy this or don't get rules". The core formation was what, an HQ, 2 CSM squads, and one of each other slot? Hardly wallet gouging. Considering the number of things CSM had in Elites, Fast and Heavy Support at the time I would have said it wasn't like you were forced to choose terrible or expensive options either.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/18 18:17:19


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Gert wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ugh. The only thing I didn't like about Traitor Legions was the inclusion of formations. They basically said "Oh, you want ALL of your Legion's rules? Well, then buy/play the models WE want you to buy/play. Otherwise, you get HALF of your rules". And of course, fw wasn't on the menu.

I know the FW stuff wasn't available but I don't really think it was "buy this or don't get rules". The core formation was what, an HQ, 2 CSM squads, and one of each other slot? Hardly wallet gouging. Considering the number of things CSM had in Elites, Fast and Heavy Support at the time I would have said it wasn't like you were forced to choose terrible or expensive options either.

Depended on your personal collection. The only ones I could do were: Chaos Warband, Raptor Talon, and Terminator Annihilation Force. And I wasn't about to go out and buy models I didn't like just for the privilege of leaving the ones I already owned and DID like at home. No Contemptors, Sicarans, or Dreadclaws. Ugh. It was definitely a case of "You can ONLY use THESE, and ONLY THESE, if you want all of your rules". That kind of regimented army design doesn't belong in Chaos Space Marines. And I'm sure it was just a "coincidence" that all of the available units were gw kits and not fw.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/18 19:00:17


Post by: Gert


But it was a GW publication though, it was never going to have FW products available in the first place. It would have been nice sure but it's not like any other armies got FW units in their formations either.
And just so we're clear on this, you could field the core formation and two of the supplementary ones. You've said before you don't like Daemon Engines, so what exactly were you not getting included in the rules? Vehicles IIRC didn't benefit from Legion Traits and formations weren't Force Orgs so you weren't restricted from taking any of the units you listed anyway.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/18 20:05:45


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Gert wrote:
But it was a GW publication though, it was never going to have FW products available in the first place. It would have been nice sure but it's not like any other armies got FW units in their formations either.
And just so we're clear on this, you could field the core formation and two of the supplementary ones. You've said before you don't like Daemon Engines, so what exactly were you not getting included in the rules? Vehicles IIRC didn't benefit from Legion Traits and formations weren't Force Orgs so you weren't restricted from taking any of the units you listed anyway.

No, but I was required to take 1 Raptor Talon or Chaos Warband + 1 Auxiliary, which was always the Terminator Annihilation Force, because that's all I could do. So I had to take, and pay for, three squads of terminators and a character whether I wanted to or not. That was what I didn't like, having units required to get Nocturnal Warfare and Strike First, Strike Hard. And Strike First, Strike Hard did work for dreadnoughts, but it didn't matter because Contemptors had Fleet anyway. I just didn't like having to take specific units to get my rules. I much preferred the Combined Arms detachment.

But there's no point in arguing about old rules. You liked them, I didn't. They're gone. Doesn't matter anymore.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/18 20:51:57


Post by: BrianDavion


no thats not "all you could do"
It was "all I allowed myself to do within the the restrictions I had placed upon myself"


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/18 20:59:58


Post by: Gadzilla666


BrianDavion wrote:
no thats not "all you could do"
It was "all I allowed myself to do within the the restrictions I had placed upon myself"

Right! I could have paid MORE MONEY for MODELS THAT I DIDN'T LIKE! Silly restriction on my part, wasn't it?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/19 01:40:10


Post by: Arachnofiend


The entire formation system was an obvious ploy to sell specific models, that should have been clear the moment they started selling them as bundles.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/19 12:55:27


Post by: Mixzremixzd


Well considering that Beard from Tabletop Tactics was of the opinion that the current CSM codex shouldn't even be sold by GW in their latest discussion, it certainly isn't a good look for what was once the premier antagonists of the setting.

Just spitballing here but I feel like the actions system is an untapped resource for game mechanics that could have been more interesting/fulfilling than stratagems and purity bonuses.

For example all Infantry units with the Mark of Khorne can perform a "Blood Rite" action as follows.

After a unit with the Mark of Khorne destroys an enemy unit they can immediately perform a Blood Rite. This action is completed at the start of your next command phase. If the unit performing a Blood Rite is still on the battlefield and has not moved then they gain +1 to their hit rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Khorne Berzerker> unit then that unit gains +1 to their hit and wound rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Cultist> unit then you may choose one friendly unit with either the Mark of Khorne or <Khorne Berzerker> within 9". That unit counts as having completed the Blood Rite action. (Think DOW 2 when the cultists can build an altar and pray to it for an AoE buff)

I don't wanna get into the semantics of the possible buffs but to me actions like these can really define and add not only flavour but in-game tactical decision making for both players.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/19 13:51:11


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Well considering that Beard from Tabletop Tactics was of the opinion that the current CSM codex shouldn't even be sold by GW in their latest discussion, it certainly isn't a good look for what was once the premier antagonists of the setting.

Just spitballing here but I feel like the actions system is an untapped resource for game mechanics that could have been more interesting/fulfilling than stratagems and purity bonuses.

For example all Infantry units with the Mark of Khorne can perform a "Blood Rite" action as follows.

After a unit with the Mark of Khorne destroys an enemy unit they can immediately perform a Blood Rite. This action is completed at the start of your next command phase. If the unit performing a Blood Rite is still on the battlefield and has not moved then they gain +1 to their hit rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Khorne Berzerker> unit then that unit gains +1 to their hit and wound rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Cultist> unit then you may choose one friendly unit with either the Mark of Khorne or <Khorne Berzerker> within 9". That unit counts as having completed the Blood Rite action. (Think DOW 2 when the cultists can build an altar and pray to it for an AoE buff)

I don't wanna get into the semantics of the possible buffs but to me actions like these can really define and add not only flavour but in-game tactical decision making for both players.


Ooooh ! Sounds spicy and fluffy ! But wouldn't it be confusing to call it an action ? Since it implies it's all they can do for the turn ?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/19 14:30:05


Post by: Mixzremixzd


DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Spoiler:
 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Well considering that Beard from Tabletop Tactics was of the opinion that the current CSM codex shouldn't even be sold by GW in their latest discussion, it certainly isn't a good look for what was once the premier antagonists of the setting.

Just spitballing here but I feel like the actions system is an untapped resource for game mechanics that could have been more interesting/fulfilling than stratagems and purity bonuses.

For example all Infantry units with the Mark of Khorne can perform a "Blood Rite" action as follows.

After a unit with the Mark of Khorne destroys an enemy unit they can immediately perform a Blood Rite. This action is completed at the start of your next command phase. If the unit performing a Blood Rite is still on the battlefield and has not moved then they gain +1 to their hit rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Khorne Berzerker> unit then that unit gains +1 to their hit and wound rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Cultist> unit then you may choose one friendly unit with either the Mark of Khorne or <Khorne Berzerker> within 9". That unit counts as having completed the Blood Rite action. (Think DOW 2 when the cultists can build an altar and pray to it for an AoE buff)

I don't wanna get into the semantics of the possible buffs but to me actions like these can really define and add not only flavour but in-game tactical decision making for both players.


Ooooh ! Sounds spicy and fluffy ! But wouldn't it be confusing to call it an action ? Since it implies it's all they can do for the turn ?


Reason I think it should be an action is to give a trade-off or consequence. If you want a buff for the rest of the game, you gotta sacrifice something for it and the current rules for actions do just that. (You can still fight in the fight phase with units performing an action it's just doing anything else that breaks it.)


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/19 14:51:06


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Well considering that Beard from Tabletop Tactics was of the opinion that the current CSM codex shouldn't even be sold by GW in their latest discussion, it certainly isn't a good look for what was once the premier antagonists of the setting.

Just spitballing here but I feel like the actions system is an untapped resource for game mechanics that could have been more interesting/fulfilling than stratagems and purity bonuses.

For example all Infantry units with the Mark of Khorne can perform a "Blood Rite" action as follows.

After a unit with the Mark of Khorne destroys an enemy unit they can immediately perform a Blood Rite. This action is completed at the start of your next command phase. If the unit performing a Blood Rite is still on the battlefield and has not moved then they gain +1 to their hit rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Khorne Berzerker> unit then that unit gains +1 to their hit and wound rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Cultist> unit then you may choose one friendly unit with either the Mark of Khorne or <Khorne Berzerker> within 9". That unit counts as having completed the Blood Rite action. (Think DOW 2 when the cultists can build an altar and pray to it for an AoE buff)

I don't wanna get into the semantics of the possible buffs but to me actions like these can really define and add not only flavour but in-game tactical decision making for both players.


Ooooh ! Sounds spicy and fluffy ! But wouldn't it be confusing to call it an action ? Since it implies it's all they can do for the turn ?


Possibly tie such things into Army Specific Secondary Objectives?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/19 15:01:46


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Mixzremixzd wrote:
Well considering that Beard from Tabletop Tactics was of the opinion that the current CSM codex shouldn't even be sold by GW in their latest discussion, it certainly isn't a good look for what was once the premier antagonists of the setting.

Just spitballing here but I feel like the actions system is an untapped resource for game mechanics that could have been more interesting/fulfilling than stratagems and purity bonuses.

For example all Infantry units with the Mark of Khorne can perform a "Blood Rite" action as follows.

After a unit with the Mark of Khorne destroys an enemy unit they can immediately perform a Blood Rite. This action is completed at the start of your next command phase. If the unit performing a Blood Rite is still on the battlefield and has not moved then they gain +1 to their hit rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Khorne Berzerker> unit then that unit gains +1 to their hit and wound rolls for the rest of the game.
If this action was performed by a <Cultist> unit then you may choose one friendly unit with either the Mark of Khorne or <Khorne Berzerker> within 9". That unit counts as having completed the Blood Rite action. (Think DOW 2 when the cultists can build an altar and pray to it for an AoE buff)

I don't wanna get into the semantics of the possible buffs but to me actions like these can really define and add not only flavour but in-game tactical decision making for both players.

I like it. And it definitely falls under the heading of: Making Marks More Impactful. I'd like to see more stuff like this for Marks in addition to basic buffs to a unit's stats.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/20 20:34:49


Post by: Rogerio134134


As an iron warriors player who has alot of havoc's, terminators and daemon engines there are a few bits i would like to see...

Iron warriors legion trait improved and changed to include Daemon engines.

2 wound marines, 3 wound terminators 4 wound obliterators.

Warp Smith improved and able to have some sort of aura similar to tech marines, such as +1 to hit for vehicles.

Cultists/traitor guard slotted in somewhere.

I know it's not the best list but there are so so many things we need I can't even cover it all.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/20 21:30:06


Post by: Marshal Loss


Rogerio134134 wrote:
4 wound obliterators.


Obliterators already have 4 wounds.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/20 23:07:26


Post by: Hecaton


pelicaniforce wrote:
I think about Andy Chambers a lot, and still have the 2002 chaos codex. The thing is that his rules permanently mangled the game, the background, the players, the meta, and particularly relevant to chaos space marines.


I guarantee some suit found the AP system confusing and wanted it streamlined down.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/21 13:31:14


Post by: VladimirHerzog


At this point, i think i'll just pay 3pts extra on all my marines and play them with an extra wound.
And might as well have their legion traits work on all their units too (spooky rhinos wont break anything).


its just ridiculous at this point.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/21 13:57:19


Post by: a_typical_hero


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
At this point, i think i'll just pay 3pts extra on all my marines and play them with an extra wound.
And might as well have their legion traits work on all their units too (spooky rhinos wont break anything).


its just ridiculous at this point.
We made the following changes locally:
- Every Marine that starts with a 3+ save gets +1W at no cost.
- Terminator units may purchase a 3rd wound at +5p per model.
- If a datasheet has been printed with a newer version in codex Death Guard or Thousand Sons, you use that profile and options -the legion specific stuff.

Extra wounds do not apply to HQ choices and characters.

Give it a try, it is still far from being oppressive.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/21 18:26:40


Post by: pelicaniforce


Hecaton wrote:
pelicaniforce wrote:
I think about Andy Chambers a lot, and still have the 2002 chaos codex. The thing is that his rules permanently mangled the game, the background, the players, the meta, and particularly relevant to chaos space marines.


I guarantee some suit found the AP system confusing and wanted it streamlined down.


That makes sense, it’s hard to tell. Chambers definitely was involved in Glaser’s Creek which flattened Orlando. I believe he did a designers notes or interview that said he was intentional about making troops more generic and taking out as much wargear, complexity, and multi wound characters as possible


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/23 14:34:14


Post by: Gadzilla666


Had a thought: when the leak for new models was first posted, can anyone remember if it was stated if everything was for CSM, or just "Chaos"? Because some of the cultist stuff seems redundant for CSM. The Possessed Humans is the red herring: why would CSM need Possessed and Possessed Humans? Just wondering if that stuff could be for a stand alone R&H/LatD codex. That would be great IMO.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/23 14:42:58


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Do we need another Codex with half a list that we have to wait 6-18 months for the other half of their army in some expansion book followed by a 2nd Edition Codex?

Because with the leaks there's not enough there to make up the meat of a Traitor Guard/LatD list.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/23 14:58:47


Post by: Gadzilla666


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Do we need another Codex with half a list that we have to wait 6-18 months for the other half of their army in some expansion book followed by a 2nd Edition Codex?

Because with the leaks there's not enough there to make up the meat of a Traitor Guard/LatD list.

We don't know that what was in the leak is everything. And "Traitor Guardsmen" could include basic infantry and HWTs. Vehicles could be handled with daemon engines from CSM and Guard vehicles, just like the old R&H and LatD lists. Just using more of the BSF stuff could fill multiple slots: mutant Ogryns, Traitor Commissars, rogue psykers, and beastmen.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/23 15:08:44


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Do we need another Codex with half a list that we have to wait 6-18 months for the other half of their army in some expansion book followed by a 2nd Edition Codex?

Because with the leaks there's not enough there to make up the meat of a Traitor Guard/LatD list.

We don't know that what was in the leak is everything. And "Traitor Guardsmen" could include basic infantry and HWTs. Vehicles could be handled with daemon engines from CSM and Guard vehicles, just like the old R&H and LatD lists. Just using more of the BSF stuff could fill multiple slots: mutant Ogryns, Traitor Commissars, rogue psykers, and beastmen.


With the BSF stuff and chaos upgrade sprue we basically already have all the models to make traitor guard a thing, we're only missing the rules


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/23 16:37:17


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
We don't know that what was in the leak is everything. And "Traitor Guardsmen" could include basic infantry and HWTs. Vehicles could be handled with daemon engines from CSM and Guard vehicles, just like the old R&H and LatD lists. Just using more of the BSF stuff could fill multiple slots: mutant Ogryns, Traitor Commissars, rogue psykers, and beastmen.
But no model/no rule. They don't sell "Traitor Guard" vehicles. They'd have to release some sort of upgrade sprue at the very least (ala Brood Brothers) before that's allowed. And even then, Brood Brothers got options limited to just the sprue despite there being fuller options available to Cadians in general.

There's a Mutant Ogryn model. Singular. It comes with a Traitor Commissar. Do you want units of Chaos Beastmen who come exactly 4-8 in a unit because that's what was on the sprue/in the box? Traitor Guard squads limited to 7 that have to take a Flamer?

My point is that the given leaks still make a full Traitor Guard army seem a bit thin on the ground:

1 HQ + Bodyguard
1 Standard bearer
4 types of infantry (Cultists and Traitor Guard, and the Possessed and Mutated humans, apparently different things)

And that's it? Given GW's sudden love of DLC, I think we should be careful about wishing for a standalone Codex.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/23 19:41:50


Post by: Gadzilla666


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
We don't know that what was in the leak is everything. And "Traitor Guardsmen" could include basic infantry and HWTs. Vehicles could be handled with daemon engines from CSM and Guard vehicles, just like the old R&H and LatD lists. Just using more of the BSF stuff could fill multiple slots: mutant Ogryns, Traitor Commissars, rogue psykers, and beastmen.

But no model/no rule. They don't sell "Traitor Guard" vehicles. They'd have to release some sort of upgrade sprue at the very least (ala Brood Brothers) before that's allowed. And even then, Brood Brothers got options limited to just the sprue despite there being fuller options available to Cadians in general.

There's a Mutant Ogryn model. Singular. It comes with a Traitor Commissar. Do you want units of Chaos Beastmen who come exactly 4-8 in a unit because that's what was on the sprue/in the box? Traitor Guard squads limited to 7 that have to take a Flamer?

My point is that the given leaks still make a full Traitor Guard army seem a bit thin on the ground:

1 HQ + Bodyguard
1 Standard bearer
4 types of infantry (Cultists and Traitor Guard, and the Possessed and Mutated humans, apparently different things)

And that's it? Given GW's sudden love of DLC, I think we should be careful about wishing for a standalone Codex.

Nope, no "Traitor Guard" vehicles. No Chaos Knight Tyrant or Wardogs either, but both of those exist. Go ask for one of them at your local store and they'll hand you a Knight Castellan or some Armigers. No "Chaos Knights upgrade sprue" either. No "Chaos specific" kit for Chaos Sicarans, Chaos Spartans, Chaos Fire Raptors, Chaos Fellblades, etc, etc either, but those units exist as well.

And no, I don't want a kit with only eight beastmen. I don't want a kit of seven Traitor Guardsmen or a kit of eight Cultists, one of which is an unusable character, either. But I doubt that either the Traitor Guardsmen or the new Cultists will be exactly the BSF kit, otherwise the Cultists wouldn't be "new", would they? They'd just be the kit gw already sells.

I understand your point about DLC, but that still doesn't explain why CSM need Possessed Astartes and Possessed Humans. What would be the purpose of having both of those in the same codex?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/23 19:52:16


Post by: Not Online!!!


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
We don't know that what was in the leak is everything. And "Traitor Guardsmen" could include basic infantry and HWTs. Vehicles could be handled with daemon engines from CSM and Guard vehicles, just like the old R&H and LatD lists. Just using more of the BSF stuff could fill multiple slots: mutant Ogryns, Traitor Commissars, rogue psykers, and beastmen.
But no model/no rule. They don't sell "Traitor Guard" vehicles. They'd have to release some sort of upgrade sprue at the very least (ala Brood Brothers) before that's allowed. And even then, Brood Brothers got options limited to just the sprue despite there being fuller options available to Cadians in general.

There's a Mutant Ogryn model. Singular. It comes with a Traitor Commissar. Do you want units of Chaos Beastmen who come exactly 4-8 in a unit because that's what was on the sprue/in the box? Traitor Guard squads limited to 7 that have to take a Flamer?

My point is that the given leaks still make a full Traitor Guard army seem a bit thin on the ground:

1 HQ + Bodyguard
1 Standard bearer
4 types of infantry (Cultists and Traitor Guard, and the Possessed and Mutated humans, apparently different things)

And that's it? Given GW's sudden love of DLC, I think we should be careful about wishing for a standalone Codex.


You realise hopefully that IA13 had also only 4 infantry unit types, which could due to customizablilty stand in..
A HQ , banner bearer, body guard is pretty much the old set up of the Vraksian command

3 differing types of infantry, 4 if you count the beastmen is more than enough if propperly.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/23 21:34:57


Post by: Marshal Loss


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Had a thought: when the leak for new models was first posted, can anyone remember if it was stated if everything was for CSM, or just "Chaos"? Because some of the cultist stuff seems redundant for CSM. The Possessed Humans is the red herring: why would CSM need Possessed and Possessed Humans? Just wondering if that stuff could be for a stand alone R&H/LatD codex. That would be great IMO.


It's explicitly stated to be for CSM. Could be part of the foundation for a future LATD book, but if they were coming in their own right in 2022 then the rumours would undoubtedly have highlighted that.

As for why - GW moves in mysterious ways, so I'm not sure. I wouldn't have even expected the CSM book to have both cultists and renegade guard, let alone possessed humans and cultist characters. Remember that they like to design things in unison, so maybe possessed humans were considered an effective use of assets/the design team's time. I'd also bet that this is a good way to gauge the popularity of chaos human kits. Or maybe this is just another step in GW's efforts to differentiate CSM from SM.

In any case, being a Word Bearer player, I have to confess that I'm pretty pleased at the sound of all these gribbly minions coming alongside new possessed. The only vanilla CSM unit that I'd like to see redone which isn't on that list would be the Defiler.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/23 21:47:44


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Marshal Loss wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Had a thought: when the leak for new models was first posted, can anyone remember if it was stated if everything was for CSM, or just "Chaos"? Because some of the cultist stuff seems redundant for CSM. The Possessed Humans is the red herring: why would CSM need Possessed and Possessed Humans? Just wondering if that stuff could be for a stand alone R&H/LatD codex. That would be great IMO.


It's explicitly stated to be for CSM. Could be part of the foundation for a future LATD book, but if LATD were coming in their own right in 2022 then the rumours would undoubtedly have highlighted that.

Ah, ok. Thanks. I figured you'd remember . Guess we'll just have to wait and see how they incorporate three different "levels" of Possessed into one codex. Maybe: troops (Human Possessed), elites (Possessed Astartes), and HQs (Greater Possessed)? That way you could have an entire army of Possessed infantry.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/23 22:27:33


Post by: Marshal Loss


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ah, ok. Thanks. I figured you'd remember


My obsession is single-handedly fueling Slaanesh at this point.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Guess we'll just have to wait and see how they incorporate three different "levels" of Possessed into one codex. Maybe: troops (Human Possessed), elites (Possessed Astartes), and HQs (Greater Possessed)? That way you could have an entire army of Possessed infantry.


Yeah, it's interesting to ponder. They've taken clear steps in the DG & TS books to reduce the focus on chaff, with varying degrees of success, so I'm surprised to see such a massive influx of mortals into the army. If human possessed were troops, then we'd presumably have cultists + renegade guard + gribbly humans all as non-marine troop options. If it worked in the same 1:1:1:1 way as DG/TS, that's potentially a lot of mortals per CSM choice, and even if only one/some/none of those get obsec, it's hard to imagine basic CSM being able to compete.

Can't wait to see what the possessed/possessed humans look like though, I adore both of the greater possessed sculpts so hopefully they're of comparable quality.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/23 23:07:21


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Marshal Loss wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Guess we'll just have to wait and see how they incorporate three different "levels" of Possessed into one codex. Maybe: troops (Human Possessed), elites (Possessed Astartes), and HQs (Greater Possessed)? That way you could have an entire army of Possessed infantry.


Yeah, it's interesting to ponder. They've taken clear steps in the DG & TS books to reduce the focus on chaff, with varying degrees of success, so I'm surprised to see such a massive influx of mortals into the army. If human possessed were troops, then we'd presumably have cultists + renegade guard + gribbly humans all as non-marine troop options. If it worked in the same 1:1:1:1 way as DG/TS, that's potentially a lot of mortals per CSM choice, and even if only one/some/none of those get obsec, it's hard to imagine basic CSM being able to compete.

Can't wait to see what the possessed/possessed humans look like though, I adore both of the greater possessed sculpts so hopefully they're of comparable quality.

Yeah, that's a lot of mortals (assuming a Possessed Human counts as a mortal). Maybe it's going to be a "double" codex, like the 2nd edition Chaos Codex which had CSM and Chaos World army lists. So you have the CSM section, and a shorter LatD section, which has the Traitor Guardsmen, Mutants, Possessed Humans, etc. The list of "mortal" models looks too much like the Eye of Terror LatD list. All that's missing is Big Mutants, and the Possessed Humans could fill that role. And of course the old LatD list could have some CSM units, they were just limited. And yes, before anyone says it, I know: "GW doesn't do that kind of thing anymore".


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/24 07:38:23


Post by: Bosskelot


It's an interesting pivot considering the past 3 years has been them desperately trying to discourage people from taking cultists over normal CSM.

It's a welcome one though; mortal/traitor guard representation has been sorely lacking in 40k Chaos tabletop wise for too long. They're such a gigantic part of the lore and make up the bulk of the forces in any major engagement that their absence in the actual game for long periods of time has been really noticeable.

They might also be rolling them properly into CSM because they don't feel confident about them as their own faction (yet)


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/24 14:43:36


Post by: Gadzilla666


So, if we assume that the LatD stuff won't be broken off into a separate list, how do we expect this stuff to be incorporated into CSM? Going on the previous examples of Eye of Terror and IA13:

1: Traitor Guardsmen: Troops. Generally better than Cultists. Could Infiltrate in the Eye of Terror list. Focused on ranged firepower. Optional special weapons and HWTs in both EOT and IA13. Basically spikey guardsmen.

2: Mutants: Troops. Melee focused. Can be improved with Gifts of Mutation for various effects.

3: Possessed Humans: Not sure about this one. Could be Troops, but I don't see what they'd offer beyond the others. Could be Elites, but then you have three different "levels" of Possessed in the Elites slot: Humans, Astartes, and Greater Possessed.

So, even if Possessed Humans aren't Troops, we'll have four Troops options. Three of which could be considered "chaff". Hard to keep the basic CSM relevant at that point.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/24 16:31:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Depends what one does with CSM.

I really like the Action - Ritual suggestion from earlier.

There’s a lot could be done with that basic concept, and if it’s limited to CSM Core only, that gives them a unique selling point.

Example which just dropped into my head?

Ritual - Dedicate

Once this Action is completed, any friendly [Chaos] unit holding the objective has Objective Secured.

Ritual - Desecrate

Once this Action is completed, enemy units cannot benefit from Objective Secured whilst holding this objective.

Just…interesting little ways to change up the dynamic.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/24 18:10:56


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I think the concept of unit actions are something that could be explored further outside the context of mission objectives.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/24 19:04:48


Post by: Racerguy180


The Traitor guard & cultists from BSF are excellent even if etb. Beastmen kick ass and really show how you can make a bunch look different. Electropriests are cool but samey.

If the full kits are a better layout and allow swapping of part groups I think the non-csm model representation in chaos is going up.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/09/24 19:20:48


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Depends what one does with CSM.

I really like the Action - Ritual suggestion from earlier.

There’s a lot could be done with that basic concept, and if it’s limited to CSM Core only, that gives them a unique selling point.

Example which just dropped into my head?

Ritual - Dedicate

Once this Action is completed, any friendly [Chaos] unit holding the objective has Objective Secured.

Ritual - Desecrate

Once this Action is completed, enemy units cannot benefit from Objective Secured whilst holding this objective.

Just…interesting little ways to change up the dynamic.

I see your point, but it would have to be something for CSM the actual unit specifically, not CSM CORE units. Otherwise players will just take the cheaper chaff Troops options and spend the rest of their points on tougher/deadlier/faster Astartes units like terminators, Warp Talons, Possessed, etc, as they've been doing for a while now. CSM themselves need something to make them worth fielding over cheaper Troops.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/04 17:10:40


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Well, for that? And conveniently as I was just dropping by to make this suggestion?

Let all CSM infantry squads have Chosen levels of equipment choice.

They’re not described as being as regimented as their Imperial counterparts. They’re pirates, robbers and reivers. There’s nothing and no-one enforcing set unit load outs.

You’re not a tactical squad. You’re a CSM squad. You can be armed with whatever you manage to get your hands on.

Sure, special weapons are nominally rare as such things go. But….if you and yours boarded and took a couple of IG Bulk Transports, and took out the Regiment(s) contained within? That’s….that’s a lot of potentially desirable weapons just landed in your lap.

Maybe they’re a bit small. But you don’t really care for upsetting the machine spirit, so one could with only the merest modicum of know-how jury rig a large grip and trigger system.

Likewise any Officer’s weapons such as power weapons, plasma pistols etc can be relatively easily co-opted, their arguably less wieldy nature being offset by you and your 9-19 mates having some of the best weapons readily available, and ones particularly useful against the lickspittle Loyalist lapdogs.

Just…give Chaos player’s the choice. There will of course still be a role for “Bolter and be happy with it” equipped squads, because they’d be far cheaper to field. But being able to sprinkle in properly Killy weapons as you see fit and points allow makes basic CSM highly desirable again.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/04 19:14:38


Post by: Eldarain


Evil Deathwatch as a starting point makes a lot of sense given the fractious and random make up of Warbands.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/04 19:54:45


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


As a throwback to HH you could also give a squad of 20CSM with Bolters a strat or an ability to shoot twice so either do your DW thing, or go full 30K Legion with Bolter Mobs.

Being realistic though I don't think squads larger than 10 Marines will be a thing in the new Codex :/


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/04 21:46:57


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just…give Chaos player’s the choice.
Sadly, this has been something of an eternal struggle - a Long War, if you will - for Chaos since the 4th Ed 'Chaos' Codex dropped.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 14:19:35


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well, for that? And conveniently as I was just dropping by to make this suggestion?

Let all CSM infantry squads have Chosen levels of equipment choice.

They’re not described as being as regimented as their Imperial counterparts. They’re pirates, robbers and reivers. There’s nothing and no-one enforcing set unit load outs.

You’re not a tactical squad. You’re a CSM squad. You can be armed with whatever you manage to get your hands on.

Sure, special weapons are nominally rare as such things go. But….if you and yours boarded and took a couple of IG Bulk Transports, and took out the Regiment(s) contained within? That’s….that’s a lot of potentially desirable weapons just landed in your lap.

Maybe they’re a bit small. But you don’t really care for upsetting the machine spirit, so one could with only the merest modicum of know-how jury rig a large grip and trigger system.

Likewise any Officer’s weapons such as power weapons, plasma pistols etc can be relatively easily co-opted, their arguably less wieldy nature being offset by you and your 9-19 mates having some of the best weapons readily available, and ones particularly useful against the lickspittle Loyalist lapdogs.

Just…give Chaos player’s the choice. There will of course still be a role for “Bolter and be happy with it” equipped squads, because they’d be far cheaper to field. But being able to sprinkle in properly Killy weapons as you see fit and points allow makes basic CSM highly desirable again.

I like that idea. Unfortunately, it bumps into gw's aggravating "no model, no rules" policy. But.....having seen the new Black Templars upgrade sprue, and things like the Necromunda gang upgrade kits, I think they could do it. Now, whether or not gw would actually give CSM that level of support is the question....


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 14:29:35


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Or just let them have greater access to Special Weapons than their Loyalist contemporaries. It doesn’t need to be “everyone can take anything”. That can be the preserve of Chosen, as they were in 3.5.

Say, up to four Special Weapons per squad. With a minimum unit size of 5, maximum of 20? You can then field MSU for filthy levels of firepower in fairly fragile squads, or just horde it up with the traditional load out, and everything in between

Whichever way it might shake out, there remains no reason for basic CSM to be so bloody basic.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 14:48:17


Post by: Gadzilla666


Hmm. The CSM kit includes enough special weapons for 3 per squad + 1 heavy weapon + whatever the champion has. Havocs, Raptors, and presumably the new Chosen add more bits, so that's definitely doable, if gw goes down the "you get what you can steal from other kits" approach they used for SoB. Yeah, it could work. I'd still like to see an upgrade sprue for CSM for easier access to the requisite bits, especially the more "rare" options (*cough* chaincannons *cough*). And actual Legion upgrade kits of the same caliber as the new Black Templars kit would be great. But not required to do this.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 17:46:48


Post by: Rosebuddy


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or just let them have greater access to Special Weapons than their Loyalist contemporaries. It doesn’t need to be “everyone can take anything”. That can be the preserve of Chosen, as they were in 3.5.

Say, up to four Special Weapons per squad. With a minimum unit size of 5, maximum of 20? You can then field MSU for filthy levels of firepower in fairly fragile squads, or just horde it up with the traditional load out, and everything in between

Whichever way it might shake out, there remains no reason for basic CSM to be so bloody basic.


I've always liked the idea of CSM being on average lower-tech than Imperial Marines due to their fractured nature and spotty access to logistics, but still trying to arm themselves to the teeth out of sheer personal interest in murder rather than tactical doctrine. So they'd have heavy stubbers and grenade launchers and similar weapons that are widely available for all military forces in the galaxy, because they're easy to steal and easy to set up machinery on your ship for maintenance and ammo production. The higher-up CSM would have the more choice weaponry funneled to them and champions would be able to get some truly weird and rare stuff. To say nothing of what any techmarines might be able to cook up when freed from Imperial weapons ideology.


So a pretty typical CSM would have a mostly functional suit of power armour, a main weapon of autogun/boltgun/machine gun/heavy machine gun/grenade launcher depending on how lucky they are, maybe something similar to an uzi or submachine gun, a couple of autopistols, a bolt pistol, a laspistol for truly desperate times, a knife, an axe, an assortment of explosives (fragmentation grenades from three different worlds, a mine, some jury-rigged explosives on a string for anti-tank work) with the smaller guns being simply discarded when they run out of bullets

while the leader of their squad might have a plasma pistol, a meltagun and a chainsword plus some rad grenades and a bolt pistol


Each unit is less of a thoughtfully considered cog in a greater tactical machine and more of a small warband that does what it does out of perverse interest in a particular range of fighting.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 19:44:12


Post by: Racerguy180


I'd really prefer reg csm getting the chosen keyword for a cp(as much as I hate cp) similar to veteran intercessors before they were an elite choice in codex.

That way you could have normal csm but then toss a cp at them and now you can take 4 specials or something similar.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 21:21:18


Post by: Gadzilla666


Racerguy180 wrote:
I'd really prefer reg csm getting the chosen keyword for a cp(as much as I hate cp) similar to veteran intercessors before they were an elite choice in codex.

That way you could have normal csm but then toss a cp at them and now you can take 4 specials or something similar.

Um, no thanks. My tanks and dreadnoughts already cost CP, I don't need my infantry getting the same treatment. Any improvements to CSM should cost points. The value of 1CP is too variable: its value can change from list to list, game to game, which is one of the problems with the whole CP/strategem system. 20 points is always just 20 points.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 22:00:02


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’m still keen on CSM squads of all stripes having a selection of Unit Champion options, representing that a given squad could be a warband unto itself, gathered under the banner of a stronger leader for mutual interest, however temporarily.

Combined with my suggestion of a wider choice of weapon load out, it’s then really in the hands of the player what their army looks like.

Is it a fragmentary remnant of the original Legions, maintaining some form of military discipline? Or is a loose alliance of rival Champions and their followers? Somewhere in between.

Kind of like the 8th Ed Dark Eldar book, but without the need to take multiple formations, as the decision can be made on a squad to squad basis.

This would help make Chaos more of an unknown quantity, as army composition might vary quite wildly from one player to the next.

I mean, consider Loyalist Astartes right now. Specific Chapters aside? Who knows what you might be facing. A pre-8th Ed Firstborn army? All Vanguard? A list with heavy infiltration capabilities? Dread horde? So many units, so many options.

CSM deserve the same depth of variety, and that needn’t involve lots and lots of new units. Just existing units have a wide selection of Killy things with which to make the foe dead in the face from not being alive anymore.

Will that CSM squad be a handful of hardened lunatics lead by someone with the stats of a SM Lieutenant? Is it instead gonna be 20 bog standard Goon Marines lead by someone just starting out on their own path to glory?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 22:12:02


Post by: H.B.M.C.


What should Marks do?

Curious on people's thoughts.

Anyone who suggests 'just give them a keyword' will be executed by the Regimental Commissar!




Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 22:13:46


Post by: Racerguy180


Gad-
They're not gonna do that, they've already screwed the cp pooch. They have no incentive to do it. Smoke shouldn't cost cp, but does, Relic shouldn't cost cp, but does...

If it gives them more flavour do it. Otherwise I guess stick with gak play on tabletop and no chosen option, which is better???


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 22:24:35


Post by: Rihgu


Give an upside, and a downside, to make units act more like what the Chaos God they're marked by.
Maybe something like:
Khorne: Can advance and charge, but must always advance and charge towards the closest enemy unit.
Slaanesh: Can Pile in an extra 3" but can't consolidate.
Nurgle: Can fire Heavy weapons after moving with no penalty but can't fire Assault Weapons after Advancing.
Tzeentch: Can fall back and charge or shoot but can't perform actions.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 22:48:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What should Marks do?

Curious on people's thoughts.

Anyone who suggests 'just give them a keyword' will be executed by the Regimental Commissar!




Honestly? Buggered if I know. I’m not even sure what base line special rules CSM have at the moment. Do they have an equivalent to SM’s Assault/Tactical/Devastator doctrine things?

In principle, I wouldn’t be against a base line benefit, but also Mark specific Stratagems and/or Actions.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 23:09:50


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Honestly? Buggered if I know. I’m not even sure what base line special rules CSM have at the moment. Do they have an equivalent to SM’s Assault/Tactical/Devastator doctrine things?

No lol, our 8th edition codex 2.0 was really just 1.1

our special rule is Death to the false emperor and Hatred assault


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 23:33:16


Post by: Gadzilla666


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I’m still keen on CSM squads of all stripes having a selection of Unit Champion options, representing that a given squad could be a warband unto itself, gathered under the banner of a stronger leader for mutual interest, however temporarily.

Combined with my suggestion of a wider choice of weapon load out, it’s then really in the hands of the player what their army looks like.

Is it a fragmentary remnant of the original Legions, maintaining some form of military discipline? Or is a loose alliance of rival Champions and their followers? Somewhere in between.

Kind of like the 8th Ed Dark Eldar book, but without the need to take multiple formations, as the decision can be made on a squad to squad basis.

This would help make Chaos more of an unknown quantity, as army composition might vary quite wildly from one player to the next.

I mean, consider Loyalist Astartes right now. Specific Chapters aside? Who knows what you might be facing. A pre-8th Ed Firstborn army? All Vanguard? A list with heavy infiltration capabilities? Dread horde? So many units, so many options.

CSM deserve the same depth of variety, and that needn’t involve lots and lots of new units. Just existing units have a wide selection of Killy things with which to make the foe dead in the face from not being alive anymore.

Will that CSM squad be a handful of hardened lunatics lead by someone with the stats of a SM Lieutenant? Is it instead gonna be 20 bog standard Goon Marines lead by someone just starting out on their own path to glory?

Agreed, again. I'm really hoping this gets done via whatever our 'Champion Upgrade" option is, like Deadly Pathogens for Death Guard and Legion Command for Thousand Sons. There should be some that buff just the Champion and some that buff him and his squad. Allow multiple if you don't take a Mark but only one if you do, just like Veteran Abilities in 3.5. Allow you to go big if you want, but make you pay for it. (With POINTS, not CP.)

H.B.M.C. wrote:What should Marks do?

Curious on people's thoughts.

Anyone who suggests 'just give them a keyword' will be executed by the Regimental Commissar!

They should be strong and change how the unit behaves, to show their dedication to their God. Think of The Books of Chaos from 3.5. A basic stat buff, and a special rule like what the Icons do now. But something more, I'm not sure what without stepping on the God aligned Legions toes, but something that really changes how they play, similar to those Legions rules. It would help if we had a clue what World Eaters and Emperor's Children were getting. But they need to do a hell of a lot more than just add a keyword.

And none of that stuff like they did in 3.5 and Traitor Legions where they basically said "Hey, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords. You see all of these cool Marks? Well you can't have those. Maybe we'll let the Word Bearers have them, but not you. These are for the Black Legion. Hands off". None of that.




Racerguy180 wrote:Gad-
They're not gonna do that, they've already screwed the cp pooch. They have no incentive to do it. Smoke shouldn't cost cp, but does, Relic shouldn't cost cp, but does...

If it gives them more flavour do it. Otherwise I guess stick with gak play on tabletop and no chosen option, which is better???

Yeah, I get that, and it sucks. But the Big Leak (which becomes more and more confirmed with every release and preview) specifically told us we were getting new Chosen models, and now Valrak has confirmed them (along with the new Warpsmith), so Chosen aren't going away. So we don't need to pay CP for them, just points. And if they play up their status as "An entire squad of Aspiring Champions", then those "Champion Upgrades" could make them super customizable. And those cost points for Death Guard and Thousand Sons.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/05 23:34:38


Post by: macluvin


Considering how lame legion traits are compared to loyalist traits, let alone a legion trait compared to half of a chapter trait as they tend to get one to two mediocre to awesome rules and we get sort of fluffy but generally worthless rules, if they give us the overhaul I think we are getting for legion traits (at best on par with one of the two special rules loyalists get) I would say the writers could easily slide an extra rule or two in the mark of chaos options for free.

Based on that, they could conceivably give us an awesome special rule with each mark of chaos for free and we might be on par with chapter traits between our probably mediocre chapter traits and the one special rule from marks of chaos.

Khorne needs to reflect martial proficiency in all forms of warfare, so possibly an extra attack and that crappy black legion trait that allows firing rapid fire weapons as though they were assault (to represent a hard and aggressive combat style that does something for both range and combat that is far from game breaking).

Slaanesh is tricky, but perhaps an ability that neuters always strikes first combat abilities to reflect perfection, and to reward better maneuvering of your army. Maybe an extra inch to charge and run moves as well... someone else has to have a better idea for slaanesh.

Mark of Tzeentch could award a free re-roll once per game to represent mastering fate. Or once per turn... maybe to represent the fickleness of the changer of ways, rolls of 1 from the re roll could trigger a mortal wound or leadership test or something.

Mark of Nurgle could grant a 5++ feel no pain to represent the resilience of the army, and the ability to fire bolters and combibolters as though they didn’t move (so generally always having rapid fire range at 24 inches). That way you can have an army constantly creeping forward.

Undivided could grant a selection of several special rules decided at list building, from scout redeployment to benefiting from friendly auras an extra one or two inches away to demonstrate being a particularly disciplined unit, for example.

These mark abilities are generally simple to write as a rule, reward a broad selection of units, and synergize with many different play styles. And seem sort of fluffy. And possibly aren’t game breaking. Since each one equates to roughly half or one whole chapter trait and most chaos space marine legion traits are garbage anyways.
It also breaks stereotypes about chaos gods’ followers that aren’t necessarily true and degrading to the game.

Also, marks could unlock extra war gear.

Khorne can allow each model in a khorne marked unit to pay points to take one of a flamer, chainsword, chainaxe, etc. or some other cool piece of war gear

Slaanesh can allow each model to pay points to take combat drugs which should do something cool like +1 bs and ws for a turn, or a 6+ fnp...

Nurgle can grant access to plague knives, grenades. Maybe an upgrade that makes their plagued blood potentially cause wounds to enemies in a certain radius (one or two inches) when they die.

Tzeentch grants an upgrade to potentially make a champion a psyker, and some kind of unholy grenade of sorcery, which causes mortal wounds.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 00:30:21


Post by: Kanluwen


 Marshal Loss wrote:

Yeah, it's interesting to ponder. They've taken clear steps in the DG & TS books to reduce the focus on chaff, with varying degrees of success, so I'm surprised to see such a massive influx of mortals into the army. If human possessed were troops, then we'd presumably have cultists + renegade guard + gribbly humans all as non-marine troop options. If it worked in the same 1:1:1:1 way as DG/TS, that's potentially a lot of mortals per CSM choice, and even if only one/some/none of those get obsec, it's hard to imagine basic CSM being able to compete.

Can't wait to see what the possessed/possessed humans look like though, I adore both of the greater possessed sculpts so hopefully they're of comparable quality.

It's from a page back, but random thinking on the matter led me to post this:

It might be that the intention is to showcase how CSM are different from their Loyalist counterparts. Chapter Serfs and defense forces? They aren't under direct Marine control, where they exist.
Not so with CSM.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 00:35:30


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Maybe they're re-releasing the Forsaken kit, but for 40k.



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 00:48:06


Post by: Gadzilla666


The "human" stuff still looks like a return of LaTD to me, with the Possessed Humans filling in for Big Mutants.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 01:10:36


Post by: Marshal Loss


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Maybe they're re-releasing the Forsaken kit, but for 40k.


I still bemoan the loss of that kit.

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:

Yeah, it's interesting to ponder. They've taken clear steps in the DG & TS books to reduce the focus on chaff, with varying degrees of success, so I'm surprised to see such a massive influx of mortals into the army. If human possessed were troops, then we'd presumably have cultists + renegade guard + gribbly humans all as non-marine troop options. If it worked in the same 1:1:1:1 way as DG/TS, that's potentially a lot of mortals per CSM choice, and even if only one/some/none of those get obsec, it's hard to imagine basic CSM being able to compete.


It might be that the intention is to showcase how CSM are different from their Loyalist counterparts. Chapter Serfs and defense forces? They aren't under direct Marine control, where they exist.
Not so with CSM.


A fact already represented by the existence of cultists as a unit for CSM with no equivalent in C:SM. It's not that there isn't thematic reason for there to be mutants and cultists and other heretics until the control of the Chaos Space Marines, it's that a massive wave of these units seems to only worsen what is arguably the army's greatest overarching problem - the lack of reasons to take C:CSM's titular unit. Loyalists struggle enough on this front already and they have better stats and weapons. At the end of the day, it's still Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Or maybe you're spot on and this is how GW views C:CSM going forward: as a core of traitor marines surrounded by the lost and the damned. That has its own appeal, but it's not the direction I would have chosen.

The sheer number of rumoured mortal units even looks large enough to be the core for an LATD release; maybe the rumours are slightly off and not all of these units are intended for C:CSM, or maybe this is just GW incubating the core of a future LATD book inside C:CSM, I haven't the foggiest. I'm not mad either, for the record - my vanilla CSM army of choice is the Word Bearers, this stuff looks right up my alley. Still seems a strange decision though.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 01:21:16


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Marshal Loss wrote:
I still bemoan the loss of that kit.
You might be in rare company than. I seem to recall that everyone hated that kit. I liked 'em, 'cause they fit well with my kit-bashed Lost & The Damned, but I think I'm in the minority there.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
A fact already represented by the existence of cultists as a unit for CSM with no equivalent in C:SM. It's not that there isn't thematic reason for there to be mutants and cultists and other heretics until the control of the Chaos Space Marines, it's that a massive wave of these units seems to only worsen what is arguably the army's greatest overarching problem - the lack of reasons to take C:CSM's titular unit. Loyalists struggle enough on this front already and they have better stats and weapons. At the end of the day, it's still Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Or maybe you're spot on and this is how GW views C:CSM going forward: as a core of traitor marines surrounded by the lost and the damned. That has its own appeal, but it's not the direction I would have chosen.
I'm sure they'll 'fix' that in the rules - can only take one [Cultist] unit for every [Heretic Astartes] [Infantry] unit in your detcahment.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
The sheer number of rumoured mortal units even looks large enough to be the core for an LATD release; maybe the rumours are slightly off and not all of these units are intended for C:CSM, or maybe this is just GW incubating the core of a future LATD book inside C:CSM, I haven't the foggiest. I'm not mad either, for the record - my vanilla CSM army of choice is the Word Bearers, this stuff looks right up my alley. Still seems a strange decision though.
I agree that it seems like a lot for a Chaos Space Marine release, but at the same time a bunch of vaguely similar infantry kits seems a bit thin for a full LATD or Traitor Guard release.



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 01:38:42


Post by: Marshal Loss


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
I still bemoan the loss of that kit.
You might be in rare company than. I seem to recall that everyone hated that kit. I liked 'em, 'cause they fit well with my kit-bashed Lost & The Damned, but I think I'm in the minority there.


Really? Genuinely surprised. I thought that it was overwhelmingly popular, such an incredible array of bits and mutations. Guess that shows how well I know the community.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
A fact already represented by the existence of cultists as a unit for CSM with no equivalent in C:SM. It's not that there isn't thematic reason for there to be mutants and cultists and other heretics until the control of the Chaos Space Marines, it's that a massive wave of these units seems to only worsen what is arguably the army's greatest overarching problem - the lack of reasons to take C:CSM's titular unit. Loyalists struggle enough on this front already and they have better stats and weapons. At the end of the day, it's still Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Or maybe you're spot on and this is how GW views C:CSM going forward: as a core of traitor marines surrounded by the lost and the damned. That has its own appeal, but it's not the direction I would have chosen.
I'm sure they'll 'fix' that in the rules - can only take one [Cultist] unit for every [Heretic Astartes] [Infantry] unit in your detcahment.


The problem is that this restriction doesn't really work well at all - assuming it follows the same rules as C: DG or C: TS - when you have so many different units to draw from. Even if only Renegade Guard & Cultists are troops out of the large array of rumoured options, most armies only need to fill 3 troop slots, so there's really no reason to spend points on normal marines when you can fill your mandatory slots with chaff and then spend your points on Terminators/Chosen/whatever unit in the 9th ed book pumps out damage.

This hypothetical is still probably a better situation than what we have currently - players will be forced to take some marine units, even if they're not normal Chaos Space Marines - so maybe I'm just being overly pessimistic. The Death Guard book has this problem, where Plague Marines just don't do enough damage and aren't resilient enough for their points. Thousand Sons are in a much better position and Rubricae are often a mainstay of their early lists, that's a bit of a special situation.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 01:41:56


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Oh I never said it was a good solution (or even a solution ! ) just that that's what GW is mostly likely to go with given they've done it before.

This is one of the reasons why I like playing Red Corsairs. Like my Primaris White Scars, their main rules - advance and charge - is super easy to remember, but the other reason is that I get rewarded for bringing CSMs. I like CSMs anyway, meta be damned, but I get a bonus for taking them.



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 01:51:44


Post by: Gadzilla666


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
A fact already represented by the existence of cultists as a unit for CSM with no equivalent in C:SM. It's not that there isn't thematic reason for there to be mutants and cultists and other heretics until the control of the Chaos Space Marines, it's that a massive wave of these units seems to only worsen what is arguably the army's greatest overarching problem - the lack of reasons to take C:CSM's titular unit. Loyalists struggle enough on this front already and they have better stats and weapons. At the end of the day, it's still Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Or maybe you're spot on and this is how GW views C:CSM going forward: as a core of traitor marines surrounded by the lost and the damned. That has its own appeal, but it's not the direction I would have chosen.
I'm sure they'll 'fix' that in the rules - can only take one [Cultist] unit for every [Heretic Astartes] [Infantry] unit in your detcahment.

Ugh, that's exactly what I don't want. I'm not going to add that stuff into my Night Lords, they're a bad fit. But I'd love to run them by themselves, no Astartes. Probably the closest thing to R&H we'll get this edition. Want to take bets that they'll stick rules for pure LaTD in a DLC supplement?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 02:12:33


Post by: Eldarain


Definitely. The best part will be they won't remove any of the repeated nerfings the cultists have taken. Just one more thing to "improve" CSM compared to their fodder


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 05:53:39


Post by: macluvin


Here’s a crazy idea... incentivize taking chaos space marines with cultist/mortals by adding the sentence: this unit loses mere mortals as long as it is within 6 inches of a (key word for chaos space marines chosen terminators etc) unit.

Then you can sort of un-nerf mortals... or give them an extra close combat attack or rerolls to atttacks made in the combat phase or something.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 07:13:13


Post by: Marshal Loss


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oh I never said it was a good solution (or even a solution ! ) just that that's what GW is mostly likely to go with given they've done it before.

This is one of the reasons why I like playing Red Corsairs. Like my Primaris White Scars, their main rules - advance and charge - is super easy to remember, but the other reason is that I get rewarded for bringing CSMs. I like CSMs anyway, meta be damned, but I get a bonus for taking them.


Missed the emphasis on 'fix', my bad but yeah you're totally right.

At least I'm sure the Word Bearers trait will be a trainwreck of such inglorious proportions that I may as well load up on normal CSM anyway.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 10:03:49


Post by: Galas


After reading for the first time the traitor legions 7th edition rules.... Just do that, and Chaos IS fixed


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 10:40:32


Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


I'd prefer one of two things -

Chaos Cultists are buffed being near CSM, act as quasi shields if the CSM unit is infantry (tau drones but only on like, 4+)

Or option to taken Chosen as troops.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 10:41:45


Post by: Crispy78


 Galas wrote:
After reading for the first time the traitor legions 7th edition rules.... Just do that, and Chaos IS fixed


Yeah, aside from them not really knowing what to do with Word Bearers, the Traitor Legions book was pretty damn good. I have no idea why they just ditched it all in 8th edition just a few months later.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 11:26:31


Post by: techsoldaten


H.B.M.C. wrote:What should Marks do?

Curious on people's thoughts.


They should work by giving statline enhancements:

- Khorne: +1 attack
- Slannesh: +2 movement
- Nurgle: +1 toughness
- Tzeentch: +1 invul

The way they will work: access to Stratagems. I don't see that changing. And maybe actions.

Galas wrote:After reading for the first time the traitor legions 7th edition rules.... Just do that, and Chaos IS fixed


They were onto something with that book, along with Traitor's Hate.

Crispy78 wrote:Yeah, aside from them not really knowing what to do with Word Bearers, the Traitor Legions book was pretty damn good. I have no idea why they just ditched it all in 8th edition just a few months later.


Money. Releasing a book 6 months before a new edition is hard to justify any other way.

I figure they started work on a 7th ed Chaos Codex before 8th was on the horizon. It never fit into a release window, so they repackaged it into this.



Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 12:37:51


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I've been thinking about Marks for a good part of the day, including yet another daily walk spent working out how I'd do it, or coming up with ideas.

I like a lot of what I'm seeing here, but one thing that struck me was that I like to use as few rules as possible (hence my advocating for USRs), and I wondered if it wouldn't be possible to combine Marks and keywords. Basically a tiered system, with those closer to the Chaos Gods gaining more benefits.

Essentially:

Mark of X - Anyone who has the Mark of X gets Effect X (could be as simple as a stat change, or a USR, or whatever). This would cover CSMs, most characters, and most vehicles.
Mark of X (Daemonic) - Anyone who has the Mark of X and the 'Daemonic' Keyword gets Effect X and Effect Y. This would cover Daemons themselves (mitigating the need for similar-but-different rules, and creating consistency) as well as the units that have opened themselves up to Chaos more, like Possessed, Daemon Princes, Daemon Engines and the like.
Mark of X (Exalted) - Anyone who has the Mark of X and the 'Exalted' Keyword gets Effect X, Effect Y and Effect Z. This new Keyword would be applied to Greater Daemons, Heralds, Daemonic Primarchs.

Marks could cost points, and in some cases be baked into the unit cost (like Daemons).

On top of this, there's a concept I played with many years ago back in the days of 4th/5th when we were doing out own rules. Inspired by Abaddon's 'Mark of Chaos Ascendant', I thought of an idea for Greater Marks of Chaos.

In our rules, these were represented by 5 items:

1. Mark of Chaos Ascendant (unaligned)
2. Talisman of Burning Blood (Khorne)
3. Shrieking Soul (Slaanesh)
4. Tainted Charm (Nurgle)
5. Prismatic Amulet (Tzeentch)

These were one per army on your main HQ upgrades, and acted as Marks+; something special for your Chaos Lord, Sorcerer Lord or Daemon Prince. Now I was lucky in that I got to write four of the above items into the rules for the Black Crusade RPG, but I've always liked the idea of using them again in 40k. Given that we have points-based upgrades again in 9th, they seem like an interesting idea. In this instance, the Greater Marks would have their own rule, plus give the bearer the 'Exalted' Keyword for the purposes of Marks of X.

Again, this is all from around 45m of brainstorming as I trudged around my suburb, so none of it is fully formed (don't even know what the Marks themselves would do!), but I kinda like the idea.

 techsoldaten wrote:
- Khorne: +1 attack
- Slannesh: +2 movement
- Nurgle: +1 toughness
- Tzeentch: +1 invul
The Invul and Movement ones worry me, and the Attack one seems kinda 'blah'. Not that these are bad - a good first step, really - but I'm worried that extra movement could be quite dangerous and extra Invul could ruffle a lot of (multi-coloured) feathers and bring back memories of invincible Tzeenchian death stars.

Having said that...

 techsoldaten wrote:
... And maybe actions.
Now that's an idea! You could even call them 'Glorifying Acts', and allow units with Mark of X to perform a God-specific one for a benefit of some kind. That's a very cool idea!

 techsoldaten wrote:
They were onto something with that book, along with Traitor's Hate.
I never ended up getting Traitor's Hate. Very expensive very thin books.

Can you elaborate on what was good in there?

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Chaos Cultists are buffed being near CSM, act as quasi shields if the CSM unit is infantry (tau drones but only on like, 4+)
'Dark Inspiration'. Another interesting idea.

 Galas wrote:
After reading for the first time the traitor legions 7th edition rules.... Just do that, and Chaos IS fixed
Thanks. I just spent 20m tearing my apartment apart looking for my copy. I hope you're happy!

j/k




Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 13:04:17


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


I was thinking: wouldn't it be simpler to also fuse the respective icons with marks ? Remove the cost of icons and make them automatic effects.
It would be easy to tweak them so it's not too strong and would simplify the matter quite a bit, no ?


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 13:06:28


Post by: H.B.M.C.


They did that once upon a time. If the Icon died your squad forgot what God they were dedicated to.

Those were dark times.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 13:42:32


Post by: Gert


Well if you're not holding a huge banner with a specific symbol on it how are you supposed to remember whose side you're on?
Are we the Skull Munchers, the Skull Eaters, the Skull Takers, or the Skull Throwers? It's all so confusing.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 14:02:12


Post by: techsoldaten


 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
- Khorne: +1 attack
- Slannesh: +2 movement
- Nurgle: +1 toughness
- Tzeentch: +1 invul
The Invul and Movement ones worry me, and the Attack one seems kinda 'blah'. Not that these are bad - a good first step, really - but I'm worried that extra movement could be quite dangerous and extra Invul could ruffle a lot of (multi-coloured) feathers and bring back memories of invincible Tzeenchian death stars.

Having said that...


So you get the idea, statline changes to models bearing Marks should (gently) mess with the mechanics of the game.

While the specifics could vary, the main thing we lost with 8th edition Marks was tactical versatility for CSM. The benefits of do-something Marks were never terribly useful, but there were times they would make a difference.

You're right about the extra movement. But it would be in keeping with other themes related to Slaanesh.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
... And maybe actions.
Now that's an idea! You could even call them 'Glorifying Acts', and allow units with Mark of X to perform a God-specific one for a benefit of some kind. That's a very cool idea!


GW could take that a lot of ways. Have a Khorne squad build a hill of skulls, have a Slaanesh squad suck the vitals from a fallen opponent to make drugs later.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
They were onto something with that book, along with Traitor's Hate.
I never ended up getting Traitor's Hate. Very expensive very thin books.

Can you elaborate on what was good in there?


Sure.

First off, I was not a fan of 7th and didn't play it much. Traitor's Hate addressed a lot of concerns I had about the game.

The big one was armored squads, it let you field 3 Predators / Vindicators as a single Heavy Support choice. So there was this appeal to running a Chaos armored column, where half your army was tanks and opponents didn't have the tools to deal with them plus Obliterators and DPs.

Then there were the new Psychic Disciplines. It's been a while, so I don't remember all of them. But one let Sorcerers move terrain around the table, which was very useful when you were fielding an armored column. I would put a building in front of my opponent's heavy antitank weapons, make them move a turn before they could shoot again. Then I would put some rocks in front of them to block LOS completely.

It also had datasheets for Renegade Knights. I was running a Fire Raptor along with one, together they would just chew up opponents very turn.





Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 14:54:02


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Galas wrote:
After reading for the first time the traitor legions 7th edition rules.... Just do that, and Chaos IS fixed

Traitor Legions was great, but I don't think we want that exactly. Remember: it allowed NO MARKS for Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and Night Lords. Word Bearers could have Marks, but couldn't take units that ALREADY HAD A MARK. So basically, Marks were for the God aligned Legions, Black Legion, and Word Bearers, and Cult Marines and any God aligned daemon engines were only for the God aligned Legions and Black Legion. So if you have any Iron Warriors Berzerkers, Alpha Legion Noise Marines, or Night Lords Plague Marines, they'd be out. I don't think people want their models invalidated. It isn't very fun (looks at converted Chaos Contemptor with dual Butcher Cannons).


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 15:02:06


Post by: Gert


Yeah, the no marks for certain Legions was dumb when we've had specific examples of those Legions using Marks and Marked units. Storm of Iron had a whole Grand Company dedicated to Khorne, the Word Bearers 34th Host had Berzerkers, and I'm fairly certain there were Astartes in the Night Lords trilogy that were either marked or came very close to it.


Chaos needs a lot of work. @ 2021/10/06 15:12:21


Post by: Abaddon303


Definitely agree with statline enhancements for marks, they should have a decent cost and provide a decent modification to the unit in order to let you really diversify the basic CSM unit.

If you look at loyalists they have 6 different marine troop options ranging from 18 to 28pts per model intended to fill a reasonable variety of different roles.

Assault intercessors are a good example of why low cost, minor changes to the stats for the unit aren't really enough to make them interesting.

It would be nice to have khorne marked csm be genuinely scary on the charge so i'd be tempted to suggest strength, attacks and ap boosts, obviously for the right price per model.

Would say a 3ppm (21pts) upgrade to give chainsword CSM 4 attacks at S5 -2ap be reasonable? It would basically make them no more powerful than blood angels assault intercessors in assault doctrine but you're paying a couple of points extra per model for the greater variety of options...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually blood angels get another attack with their super doctrine