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3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 16:08:24


Post by: jeff white


I was listening to a Youtube content creator as I worked on a project, today. The first video that played involved GW taking down an eBay auction posted by a different content creator who does painting tutorials and who had printed a giant model (meaning, a fantasy giant humanoid, in this case a large cyclops) that is NOT a copy of a GW model. The painter suggested that the model could be used in AoS and similar games. GW forced the removal of the auction due to intellectual property complaints. A few videos after that one described the differences between 3d printed and GW original models. Lots of custom models that looked very good, and that cost a LOT less to print. Some of them looked better to me than the GW originals.

Personally, I would have no trouble playing against the 3d printed versions that were shown on the videos. I have not (yet) purchased a 3d printer, but... I am seeing less and less reason not to do so.

Here is a simple poll. Maybe this has been done, before, but I am asking simply if 3d printing is cool specifically in the context of 40K, meaning that you would have no problems playing against and/or collecting 3d printed models, perhaps doing so yourself with your own printer at some point if not doing so already. If not OK, why not? If OK, are you using custom prints already?

Again, there is some discussion ongoing on Dakka about this topic. If this thread is a double of another ongoing thread, please let me know and maybe a MOD should delete this one.



3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 16:28:51


Post by: El Torro


I think using 3D prints in 40K is fine, as long as the 3D print isn't a direct copy of a GW model. It's the same as using third party miniatures to play GW games.

Of course if you use non GW miniatures at GW events or stores then (I think quite rightly) the store owner should tell you not to use them, only GW miniatures are allowed. That doesn't mean you can't use them elsewhere though.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 16:36:35


Post by: Galas


I like miniatures. When I like a miniature, i'll evaluate how much I'm willing to spend on it. Sometimes GW offers me stuff that I like for prices that I can accept. Others time they don't.

I don't have any kind of moral approach to this outside recasts.

3D printing, even if is people basically making "not-X" , they are making it from scratch so, as I said, if its something I like for a price I feel acceptable I'll pay it if I really want it. Playing is not a problem because here we don't have GW stores or GW tournaments.

That example you use if I remember correctly (The giant ebay listing) was because the title of the actuion wasn't clear enough about not being a proper GW model.

The truth here of course is that GW is a company and will do crazy stuff for us as customers with no kind of consistence. Thats how they work. I don't understand people that spends hours and days trying to make sense or arguing about this. So much mental energy spend in pointless discussion, unless you are a GW investor or someone related to those fields.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 16:43:08


Post by: TinyLegions


I am climbing into the same boat with you Jeff.
Over the past two months, I have been impressed by what I have been seeing in 3D printing, almost daily. Likewise I am liking less and less of GW's products on an aesthetic level, among other issues, for years. There will be a shift with me at some point and that may be sooner rather than later.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 16:48:34


Post by: Gert


It's not a black and white issue, hence why I think a poll is a bad idea.
The specific instance you mention jeff, IIRC was due to the creator of the 3d model specifically marketing their model as a GW product, i.e. using a GW copyrighted term. If an individual is using those specific terms and has their product taken down, then it's their fault. They knew they were using specific words in order to get traction via search functions, it's why clickbait videos and accounts use loads of completely random hashtags and keywords. If instead the product is marketed as "Super-Giant for 28mm Heroic Fantasy Wargames", then there's not an issue. If it's just for you, then again no issues unless you rock up to a GW-sponsored event or location, then obviously that's on you if you get told not to use it.
I've seen good 3d prints and I've seen bad 3d prints. My friend owns one and has printed me some Mantis Warrior shoulder pads before. He also always has it on when we have gaming nights and it is extremely loud over voice chat.
The one thing that really ticks me off is how if you disagree that 3d printing is God's gift to the world, people tend to jump down your throat and act as if you've broken their legs and taken all their money.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 17:40:49


Post by: Sim-Life


People should be able to make and sell what they want. Including direct copies of GW models.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 17:44:52


Post by: myUserName


If something increases the fun of the other player without it lessening my fun, it's fine by me. There is no one else involved in our game to care about.
This means it's absolutely fine by me if the other player uses self printed miniatures or anything else not sold by GW. I've seen several of these I like better than the respective GW miniature to use as representation for a data sheet on the table.

Myself I have and used two 40k miniatures printed by a friend, several weapons I use for original GW miniatures and some 40k miniatures produced by "Wargames Exclusive".


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 17:52:20


Post by: yukishiro1


You can't list your models as GW models (or AOS, or 40k models) if they aren't. That's why that listing got pulled, and that's sensible consumer protection.

On the other hand, it's perfectly legal and legit to list a model as "40k compatible" or "alternative AOS model" or something like that, assuming the model itself isn't infringe, which they very rarely do unless they're an actual copy.

I certainly have no problem with people playing with alternative models, as long as they're cool and show an equivalent amount of effort to buying the GW ones. I.e. I'm not so hot on a coffee mug standing in for a tank, but if you have a 3D printed alternative Rhino that looks cool...go for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
It's not a black and white issue, hence why I think a poll is a bad idea.
The specific instance you mention jeff, IIRC was due to the creator of the 3d model specifically marketing their model as a GW product, i.e. using a GW copyrighted term. If an individual is using those specific terms and has their product taken down, then it's their fault. They knew they were using specific words in order to get traction via search functions, it's why clickbait videos and accounts use loads of completely random hashtags and keywords. If instead the product is marketed as "Super-Giant for 28mm Heroic Fantasy Wargames", then there's not an issue.


You can't copyright a term or a specific word. That's a trademark. And people are perfectly free to use your trademarks while advertising their own product, as long as it's clear their product isn't being claimed to be your product. I.e. "Tastes better than coca cola (TM)" is fine, just like an ebay listing for "alternative AOS giant model" would be fine.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 18:00:16


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Sim-Life wrote:People should be able to make and sell what they want. Including direct copies of GW models.
Make, maybe. Producing and selling a carbon copy of someone else's work? Absolutely not.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 18:33:00


Post by: ccs


Whatever their source, for whatever the game, I've got no qualms about using or playing against non-GW models. Never have, never will.
This extends to direct recasts & 3d prints of GW stuff.



3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 18:38:26


Post by: Aenar


ccs wrote:
Whatever their source, for whatever the game, I've got no qualms about using or playing against non-GW models. Never have, never will.
This extends to direct recasts & 3d prints of GW stuff.

This.
As long as I have fun in a tabletop game, I don't judge the models I'm playing against.
Official models, recasts and 3D prints all have their place on the tabletop.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 18:50:45


Post by: lord_blackfang


ccs wrote:
Whatever their source, for whatever the game, I've got no qualms about using or playing against non-GW models. Never have, never will.
This extends to direct recasts & 3d prints of GW stuff.


Same.

Personally I'm not interested in printing copies to save money, but I'm excited to print resculpts of OOP games like Man O War, Warmaster and BFG, and alternative sculpts if I like the design better than GW's, and most of all I love the massive offering of non GW related miniatures. It's no exaggeration to say that more miniatures get sculpted now each month than got sculpted in a year 10 years ago, possibly multiple years, in the whole hobby industry combined, and I can have any one I want in my hand within a day.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 19:00:04


Post by: jeff white


I did expect generally a warm reception to the idea, but am a bit surprised by the acceptance of direct copies of GW models that are not specifically OOP especially... As the OP, I am going to stay neutral on the idea for now. I am a bit surprised, but not going to say if that is happy surprise or moral abhorrence.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 19:05:16


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


I'm surprised that the mods aren't challenging/shutting down the endorsement of outright carbon copying.

3D printing is great, as are alternative designs and creating OOP or non-existent things, but that ain't the same as outright carbon copies.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 19:11:22


Post by: ccs


 lord_blackfang wrote:
ccs wrote:
Whatever their source, for whatever the game, I've got no qualms about using or playing against non-GW models. Never have, never will.
This extends to direct recasts & 3d prints of GW stuff.


Same.

Personally I'm not interested in printing copies to save money, but I'm excited to print resculpts of OOP games like Man O War, Warmaster and BFG, and alternative sculpts if I like the design better than GW's, and most of all I love the massive offering of non GW related miniatures. It's no exaggeration to say that more miniatures get sculpted now each month than got sculpted in a year 10 years ago, possibly multiple years, in the whole hobby industry combined, and I can have any one I want in my hand within a day.


As far as saving $ with 3d printing? It'd definitely depend upon what the model is.
I'm not going to bother for a squad of new ork boyz. Or even lots of new ork boyz. I'll just buy the GW kits & if I see some alt sculpt I like for an individual I'll print that for some variety.
On the other hand there's no way in Hell I'm spending the $$$ FW wants for a Warlord Titan. So if I ever decide such a thing needs to be on the table I'd 100% 3d print it.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 20:54:36


Post by: Pyroalchi


I printed/ordered prints of stuff that isn't produced for conversions (shotlas as alternative to lasguns, twin-multilasers for heavy weapons teams etc.) and am pretty happy with it as a collector. I would also not mind to play against something like that in a casual environment. I have to say though that I would find direct 1:1 copies of GW models a bit fishy and I myself would feel very uncomfortable bringing something like that to a game.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 21:11:46


Post by: drbored


Where's the "I don't care either way" option?

You can play with whatever models you want, as long as your opponent feels the same way. You just need to understand a few key things.

1. You wont be able to play with printed models at a Warhammer store or Warhammer sponsored event.

2. Printing your own models does not support your local gaming store, so don't be surprised if the gaming store staff gives you pushback for using their tables/space.

3. Some opponents that spend hundreds of dollars on GW models and armies may not want to play against your 3d printed armies. That's their opinion and their right.

As long as you keep those things in mind, do whatever you want.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 21:24:28


Post by: Veldrain


I fall in the middle of the road. As long as the models look good I don't really care.

I mostly play in game stores so I support them if I can. But they can not order FW at a retail discount so I have no issue with getting recasts. And the same with conversion bits and random character models.



3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 21:43:38


Post by: jeff white


Funny. Re Castus, then?


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 21:58:02


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Whilst mini printing is currently beyond my patience level if I did pick up 40k again it might be nice to have some CWE models designed this century

And so long as its more or less obvious what a printed model is meant to be I've got no issues of their use in any game


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 22:04:11


Post by: PenitentJake


 jeff white wrote:
I did expect generally a warm reception to the idea, but am a bit surprised by the acceptance of direct copies of GW models that are not specifically OOP especially... As the OP, I am going to stay neutral on the idea for now. I am a bit surprised, but not going to say if that is happy surprise or moral abhorrence.


I think there's a difference between playing against something and completely endorsing the concept of 3d printing carbon copies of models for an entire army.

I hope that enough people realize we have to support the company to keep the game going- otherwise we end up in a situation where the game just dies. All the pretty and cheap 3d prints aren't really going to make a difference if all development stops because the company breaks.

But if you show up with an army, provided it's not radioactive, I'll play against it.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 23:03:25


Post by: Veldrain


And that is one of the problems a lot of people gloss over. If no one buys the models then GW stops selling rules. I DO NOT seeing this happen soon but in five years it may be on the horizon.

Gaslands is a game that sells rulebooks and no models. KoW started as a way to sell rulebooks to use with GW models. Battletech would be happy to stick with 3D printed models and the same rules for another 30 years.

40K would never survive this environment. If you don't support it at all then don't complain when it's gone.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 23:06:54


Post by: BrianDavion


Veldrain wrote:
Battletech would be happy to stick with 3D printed models and the same rules for another 30 years.


You realize about 6 months back CGL issued a bucket load of C&D orders to people printing mechs right?


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 23:07:19


Post by: Galas


It is not my duty as a customer to spend my money on a multimillion company and their investors, that mentality is the one that keeps people playing a game that they despise like WoW or heck, warhammer.

Its GW's interest as a company to offer me a product I want to invest money in. If it busts, it busts just like Kodak. Is a game, I'll find other uses for my miniatures, is not like losing the GW rulesets would be a real lose for anybody.

Others will come to take their place. Attempting to make the customers responsible for the future of a company is completely asinine. And trying to say that if they don't keep spending money even after spending hundreds allready they cannot complaint is even worse.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 23:09:00


Post by: BrianDavion


 Galas wrote:
It is not my duty as a customer to spend my money on a multimillion company and their investors, that mentality is the one that keeps people playing a game that they despise like WoW or heck, warhammer.

Its GW's interest as a company to offer me a product I want to invest money in. If it busts, it busts just like Kodak. Is a game, I'll find other uses for my miniatures, is not like losing the GW rulesets would be a real lose for anybody.

Others will come to take their place.


nope, but if you don't buy something don't complain when it no longer exists. thats just common sense.

Your duty as a customer is simply to decide if the product is desirable eneugh to pay the asking price.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/25 23:48:01


Post by: Veldrain


BrianDavion wrote:
Veldrain wrote:
Battletech would be happy to stick with 3D printed models and the same rules for another 30 years.


You realize about 6 months back CGL issued a bucket load of C&D orders to people printing mechs right?


I did mistype that. Most Battletech players would be happy with the same rules if nothing new was ever released. Aside from historicals I can't think of a any other games that would stay going.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 00:27:21


Post by: Sumilidon


I haven't got a problem in the world playing against 3D printed models so long as they resemble the originals to the point where it's easy enough to tell what they are.

Eg: No Space marines at half the height

A local player 3D printed many of his Orc characters as the originals just looked terrible. His prints were awesome from a resin printer.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 00:48:16


Post by: BrianDavion


Veldrain wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Veldrain wrote:
Battletech would be happy to stick with 3D printed models and the same rules for another 30 years.


You realize about 6 months back CGL issued a bucket load of C&D orders to people printing mechs right?


I did mistype that. Most Battletech players would be happy with the same rules if nothing new was ever released. Aside from historicals I can't think of a any other games that would stay going.[/quote

I dunno man, I remember the absolute PANIC when FASA closed their doors


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 00:55:36


Post by: the_scotsman


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm surprised that the mods aren't challenging/shutting down the endorsement of outright carbon copying.

3D printing is great, as are alternative designs and creating OOP or non-existent things, but that ain't the same as outright carbon copies.


god i language please WISH more people made OOP things....I've scrounged up basically everything that currently exists, but god DAMN i want muh inquisitor28 and oldcromunda models...


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 02:51:44


Post by: ccs


 the_scotsman wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm surprised that the mods aren't challenging/shutting down the endorsement of outright carbon copying.

3D printing is great, as are alternative designs and creating OOP or non-existent things, but that ain't the same as outright carbon copies.


god i language please WISH more people made OOP things....I've scrounged up basically everything that currently exists, but god DAMN i want muh inquisitor28 and oldcromunda models...


What is Inquisitor28?
Just a 28mm scale version of the old Inquisitor range? Or is it some specific figure?


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 03:47:56


Post by: macluvin


Here’s my deal with GW: you sell me a fully functioning rulebook for my faction that I only need to buy once per edition, and make the game balanced for the duration of that edition without requiring me to buy a supplement, and I will spend the money I save on Gw models. You rip me off on craptastic rules that I need to constantly buy updates for to remain relative to the meta, and I will go to chinacast to fill the gaps when I want models because I bought the models to play a game... you want my money satisfy my needs as a customer or rely on the others.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 03:54:24


Post by: Racerguy180


macluvin wrote:
Here’s my deal with GW: you sell me a fully functioning rulebook for my faction that I only need to buy once per edition, and make the game balanced for the duration of that edition without requiring me to buy a supplement, and I will spend the money I save on Gw models. You rip me off on craptastic rules that I need to constantly buy updates for to remain relative to the meta, and I will go to chinacast to fill the gaps when I want models because I bought the models to play a game... you want my money satisfy my needs as a customer or rely on the others.


I'm basically with you. The only thing I don't do is chinacast. Scanning a friend's model, hell yea.

I haven't bought a GW book in decades, other than ones included with a boxed set.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 06:27:47


Post by: ZergSmasher


As the owner of an Anycubic Photon S 3d printer, I'm definitely in favor of using 3d printed models as long as they are the right size and shape so as to avoid any "modelling for advantage" concerns. Same as any other third party models. Lots of Patreon creators are out there making cool models, so it would be a shame if nobody could use them in events.

Any TO who disallows 3d printed (or any other third party) models is a douche and/or a GW white knight, unless of course the event is a GW event or something in which case it's fair for them to require official GW models.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 06:33:57


Post by: Blackie


I'd definitely play against a full 3D printed army, as long as it's reasonably WYSIWYG.

I'm not interested in purchasing any 3D printed models though as I never, ever, saw a single 3D printed miniature that was better than its GW counterpart. At least for those armies I do own or would like to own. And I can't mix them with already existing collections because the design is typically different.

About terrain I'm way more open to get third party alternatives, and in fact I did get a lot of non GW stuff. 3D printed terrain is easily on par with GW stuff if not better.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 06:42:46


Post by: stroller


In the middle here. It's a couple of years since I've seen 3d prints (work then pandemic) and the examples I saw were awful.

I'm sure there are better out there, and my sample group is minute. For me, too much time and effort. For others, straight copying is out, but otherwise go for it, but go for it WELL!


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 06:43:40


Post by: jeff white


Some say that newer prints can be better or perhaps as good as GW originals… I have seen only photos and sure, seem sometimes even better. GW does not have a lock on the best artists, that is a certainty!
But one thing that I doubt completely is that 40k would dry up if we stopped paying 35euros for a single 28mm character on a “scenic” base. Worried about GW printing rules? Mezmorki seems to have a better system here on Dakka, free and open. Oldhammer books are everywhere. Russians have newest rules open, free. Second edition? Third? What might disappear is the last five years of weird Cawlian scum after my horde of perhaps soon to be printed OG not weenies lays down a holy torrent of righteous bolter rounds into their noob heretical snoutlessly helmeted faces. But 40k is not going anywhere. I mean, why am I thinking about getting into a new printer at this point? It Is not to print car parts, you got that right!


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 07:20:02


Post by: Aenar


drbored wrote:
You can play with whatever models you want, as long as your opponent feels the same way. You just need to understand a few key things.
1. You wont be able to play with printed models at a Warhammer store or Warhammer sponsored event.

I am lucky enough not to have any official store nearby and the only official tournament I used to play in was held once a year. Not a big loss, in case I decided not to play a list with 100% official models.

2. Printing your own models does not support your local gaming store, so don't be surprised if the gaming store staff gives you pushback for using their tables/space.

I am lucky enought to play in a large gaming club with its own venue, not associated with any FLGS. The number of 3D printers we own, both individually and at club level, is skyrocketing.

3. Some opponents that spend hundreds of dollars on GW models and armies may not want to play against your 3d printed armies. That's their opinion and their right.

And their loss. But then again, in my local scene there's no one like that.

BrianDavion wrote:
 Galas wrote:
It is not my duty as a customer to spend my money on a multimillion company and their investors, that mentality is the one that keeps people playing a game that they despise like WoW or heck, warhammer.
Its GW's interest as a company to offer me a product I want to invest money in. If it busts, it busts just like Kodak. Is a game, I'll find other uses for my miniatures, is not like losing the GW rulesets would be a real lose for anybody.
Others will come to take their place.

nope, but if you don't buy something don't complain when it no longer exists. thats just common sense.
Your duty as a customer is simply to decide if the product is desirable eneugh to pay the asking price.

I doubt GW is ever going to cease to exist, but even in that remote case 40K wouldn't.
WHFB did not die when they killed the setting, it lives on as the community driven The 9th Age. 40K would live on, just like that.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 07:56:00


Post by: Blackie


 Aenar wrote:


3. Some opponents that spend hundreds of dollars on GW models and armies may not want to play against your 3d printed armies. That's their opinion and their right.

And their loss. But then again, in my local scene there's no one like that.



Absolutely. And a 2000 points 3D printed army is typically far more expensive than an original GW one if it's bought from someone else or if the player had to pay for the printer as well.

There are also people that may not want to play against an OP tournament list or a skew list that is zero fun to play against, even if it's full GW, full WYSIWYG and full painted at pro levels. That's also their opinion and their right.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 08:38:04


Post by: Sim-Life


PenitentJake wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
I did expect generally a warm reception to the idea, but am a bit surprised by the acceptance of direct copies of GW models that are not specifically OOP especially... As the OP, I am going to stay neutral on the idea for now. I am a bit surprised, but not going to say if that is happy surprise or moral abhorrence.


I hope that enough people realize we have to support the company to keep the game going- otherwise we end up in a situation where the game just dies. All the pretty and cheap 3d prints aren't really going to make a difference if all development stops because the company breaks.



It's not my job to support GW. The onus is on GW to retain financial support, if they can't do that then that is them failing to provide the consumer with what they want. If they see a loss of profits from people 3D printing their stuff its up to them to evaluate where and why their business is lacking and rectify the issue to win back custom.

Also, please don't do something stupid like compare GW to an indie company. GW is a corporation, its a whole different situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:


Absolutely. And a 2000 points 3D printed army is typically far more expensive than an original GW one if it's bought from someone else or if the player had to pay for the printer as well.


If that was even close to true we wouldn't be discussing this.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 09:11:52


Post by: Flinty


Your first 3D printed army is about £500 - 600, including all the printing, safety and consumable equipment. Your second printed army is maybe £100


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 09:12:59


Post by: tauist


3D printing is the future, and I not only approve, I encourage getting into it, but only for creating new stuff, not copying existing products.

I adore the contenporary looking Epic armies people are 3D printing for themselves! No foul towards GW either since they dont offer models anymore.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 09:14:16


Post by: Flinty


If anyone needs examples of quality pointing to Albertorius’s great printing blog.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/777911.page

And inquisitor28 is the old Inquisitor rule set using 28mm models rather than the original 54mm scale ones.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 09:20:53


Post by: Dysartes


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm surprised that the mods aren't challenging/shutting down the endorsement of outright carbon copying.

They don't do it when people talk about pirating the rules, so why would they when it comes to the models?


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 09:31:03


Post by: ccs


PenitentJake wrote:

I hope that enough people realize we have to support the company to keep the game going- otherwise we end up in a situation where the game just dies.


You're mistaken. It's GWs job to produce products I want at a price I'll pay. If they fail to do that the results are that I don't give them my $.

Furthermore the game will not die. With or without GW, there's plenty of people who own plenty of books & models who'll still like to play games. We're not chucking our stuff in the trash. We'll just keep playing wichever editions suit our groups as long as we enjoy the games.

PenitentJake wrote:
All the pretty and cheap 3d prints aren't really going to make a difference if all development stops because the company breaks.


If the company breaks & development stops they'll make a HUGE difference. Wether you're an existing player looking to expand or a new player looking to start, there'll only be 3 sources of models. and one of those is finite.
1) Retail - The finite option. Whatever kits are still out there at your local or on-line shops. And as the continuing pandemic has demonstrated, those kits will run out. Unlike the current shortages though there won't be any re-stock.
2) 2nd hand - be it EBay, FB pages, etc etc etc. Somebodies always selling off stuff.
3) 3d prints & re-casts.



3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 10:23:59


Post by: BrianDavion


 Dysartes wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm surprised that the mods aren't challenging/shutting down the endorsement of outright carbon copying.

They don't do it when people talk about pirating the rules, so why would they when it comes to the models?


It does seem odd, talk about recasting IMMEDIATLY gets you shut down here, but I've seen threads go on for 20+ pages where people advocate pirating the codices and gleefully admit to doing so without anything happening, likewise people talk about printing entire armies of bootleg marines and no steps are taken to shut that talk down. the double standard at play is obvious.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 10:43:34


Post by: Blackie


 Sim-Life wrote:

 Blackie wrote:


Absolutely. And a 2000 points 3D printed army is typically far more expensive than an original GW one if it's bought from someone else or if the player had to pay for the printer as well.


If that was even close to true we wouldn't be discussing this.


No? How much would a 3D printed 2000 points army cost? All things considered, including the actual cost of the printer and time spent on learning how to design, print and clean the models.

3D printing is a long term investment, if you want thousands of points of stuff then it's a cheaper solution than buying the original stuff. Now everyone wants that, and not everyone has the patience or skills to make their own models.

And 3D printed stuff that is on the market is not really cheaper than GW stuff.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 11:14:48


Post by: Aenar


 Blackie wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Blackie wrote:

Absolutely. And a 2000 points 3D printed army is typically far more expensive than an original GW one if it's bought from someone else or if the player had to pay for the printer as well.

If that was even close to true we wouldn't be discussing this.

No? How much would a 3D printed 2000 points army cost? All things considered, including the actual cost of the printer and time spent on learning how to design, print and clean the models.

3D printing is a long term investment, if you want thousands of points of stuff then it's a cheaper solution than buying the original stuff. Now everyone wants that, and not everyone has the patience or skills to make their own models.

And 3D printed stuff that is on the market is not really cheaper than GW stuff.

Even by considering all the related costs, it depends on the army.
Probably 2000 points of Custodes (excluding expensive FW units) would be cheaper with official models.
2000 points of AdMech, GSC, Guard, ...? It depends.

A cheap resin 3D printer (Anycubic Photon) costs $140 (USD), plus resin ($50-60 for two liters of resin, but again it depends on the faction), isopropyl alcohol to clean prints ($30), random paper towels and similar stuff ($20?).
You can also add a wash&cure machine to properly prepare the prints for painting ($100), or do it yourself with a couple of buckets full of alcohol and then leaving the models under the sun.
Total: $250-350 to get a printer and print a full 2000 points army.
You could get a 4K printer, a mono printer, a larger printer, ... and spend a little bit more. But the cheapest one I've seen, the one I own, is capable of printing incredible details.

This would be the cost for the first army. The second one would cost obviously less.

As for the time investment in learning how to use it, it's not rocket science. It involves a lot of trial & error to get to know your particular printer and to dial in the correct print settings. But it can be easily done over a couple of weeks.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 11:32:57


Post by: jeff white


Roughly 5 to 1 in favor of 3d printing.
After seeing the reception here, I know where my hobby dollars are going when and if we ever get a stable home again.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 11:52:11


Post by: BrianDavion


 jeff white wrote:
Roughly 5 to 1 in favor of 3d printing.
After seeing the reception here, I know where my hobby dollars are going when and if we ever get a stable home again.



..... Do you really need a buncha people on the internet to make up your mind for you? if you're concerned about local reception wouldn't you be better off..... I dunno, asking your local play groups facebook page?


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 11:57:31


Post by: Gert


 jeff white wrote:
Roughly 5 to 1 in favor of 3d printing.
After seeing the reception here, I know where my hobby dollars are going when and if we ever get a stable home again.

I thought you were just wondering in general not making an actual decision. Ask your locals, you'll get a much more accurate reaction.
Forums tend to be polarised and are a poor representation of real-world communities, which is interesting because so far this thread hasn't been so bad with regards to insults and vendettas.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 12:04:26


Post by: CEO Kasen


 jeff white wrote:
Roughly 5 to 1 in favor of 3d printing.
After seeing the reception here, I know where my hobby dollars are going when and if we ever get a stable home again.


Firstly, sorry to hear your home isn't stable.

But second, yeah, when you get a space to do minis in again, print away.

Honestly, a half-decent paintjob on a solid 3d print is something I would actually rather see from my opponent than a competently painted stock GW model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
I did expect generally a warm reception to the idea, but am a bit surprised by the acceptance of direct copies of GW models that are not specifically OOP especially... As the OP, I am going to stay neutral on the idea for now. I am a bit surprised, but not going to say if that is happy surprise or moral abhorrence.


I think there's a difference between playing against something and completely endorsing the concept of 3d printing carbon copies of models for an entire army.

I hope that enough people realize we have to support the company to keep the game going- otherwise we end up in a situation where the game just dies. All the pretty and cheap 3d prints aren't really going to make a difference if all development stops because the company breaks.

But if you show up with an army, provided it's not radioactive, I'll play against it.



See, the problem is that too many people support the company regardless of what the company does at this point. They have a self-contained lore-game ecosystem that is uncontested in their particular realm and very hard to break out of. And the result is that their game is, armybook by armybook, becoming a squirrel gradually vomiting out a streamer of spaghetti currently large enough to fill the Hindenburg.

I don't think even in my most wildly optimistic fantasies that a bit of grumbling on Dakka will kill that squirrel. But they need a little less success than they're getting if we want anything to change. They need competition - from 3D printers, from other games, so that GW has to work to be the best option and can't just do whatever it wants because people see it as the only option.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 12:18:05


Post by: hobojebus


3D printings come a long way in a short time, resin printers especially can do amazing quality.

This is GWs war to lose, 3D printings can match them for quality, but it's much cheaper.

Either GW will drop prices to take advantage of their mass production capabilities or they'll be reduced to just releasing rules books.

I've a friend who runs a 3D printing site she's growing her range all the time, some of her stuff blows GW out the water.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 13:02:40


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Dysartes wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm surprised that the mods aren't challenging/shutting down the endorsement of outright carbon copying.

They don't do it when people talk about pirating the rules, so why would they when it comes to the models?
Again, I just seem to recall when Dakka's mods operated on a rather strict "no recasting" policy, and such topics were rather quickly halted. I wonder if this is perhaps a change in policy on their end.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 13:25:04


Post by: Gert


A 3d printer is a relatively complex piece of equipment, you try selling the 40k hobby to a bunch of kids/teens off the back of buying a 3d printer, and very few are going to pick you up on it.
It's all well and good to say learning 3d printing only takes a few weeks but it's hardly the same as buying models. To get good quality stuff you have to be good at 3d printing/get a good printer and if you beans it, you're left with nothing. On the other side, a beginner who buys their models isn't expected to be a "Golden Demon" standard painter. The learning curve with painting is a hell of a lot simpler IMO than 3d printing, especially with things like Contrast. Of course, that's even if you care about painting in the first place. The only thing you actually need to do with bought models is build them.
It's not a case of instant gratification, it's more "why should I spend £300 on a printer, wait a month before I actually know how to use it, then print models".
Anyway, that's just my opinion on the whole "3d printing will kill GW" thing.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 14:25:13


Post by: Templarted


I don’t see it as being good for the local scene, near me it was completely dead until a FLGS opened up so I don’t want to 3D print whole armies and drive them out of business. That being said I do use 3D printed parts and bases on models and don’t really have a problem playing against them. I don’t see 3D printing really taking off for a few years, it’s still a high start up cost and a lot of hours to get it right. When software becomes more user friendly(I’m aware it might seem it to you but not to others with limited time) it will be a lot more common place, GW and most other model manufacturers will just produce vehicles and scenery.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 14:54:34


Post by: Da Boss


Making exact copies and selling them I think is too far. Marketing them as GW models is dishonest and illegal.

But other than that, sure, why not make miniatures inspired by GW stuff? Lots of GW designs are or were inspired by other sources, and their background is ripped off from Dune and Moorcock and the like, so it's not like they've got much of a leg to stand on there.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 15:12:03


Post by: Dudeface


Poll is top narrow in scope imo.

No to 3d printing
3d printing conversion parts
3d printing occasional models
3d printing units/armies from alternatives
OK with 3d printed gw knockoffs


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 16:02:50


Post by: Ketara


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm surprised that the mods aren't challenging/shutting down the endorsement of outright carbon copying.

They don't do it when people talk about pirating the rules, so why would they when it comes to the models?
Again, I just seem to recall when Dakka's mods operated on a rather strict "no recasting" policy, and such topics were rather quickly halted. I wonder if this is perhaps a change in policy on their end.


Arguments in favour of direct copies of GW sculpts have been against the rules, are against the rules, and will likely always be against the rules. Dakka has never endorsed illegal direct duplications of artistic sculpts. Note that saying 'Yeah, I'd play someone with a recast army', or 'I don't care about recasts' are merely personal expressions and consequently not the same thing as 'We should all be recasting models! Look at my huge army of recasts, you should do it too!' or 'You can buy recasts at Location X!' The latter is banned here, the former is not.

When it comes to someone printing out a Makers Cult Feudal Guard army however, that's basically the same as someone modifying some WW2 Germans to carry lasguns, or buying some plastics from Mantic to play with. Those are independent sculpts, and no matter how derivative of GW IP generally an independent sculpt may be, it's not a duplicate or a recast and not treated the same. Mods have better things to do then try and figure out if a model is 2% over the acceptable line of similarity to qualify as an IP infringement.

In other words, saying 'Yeah, I think we should all be playing 5th edition 40K with printed out proxies that can resemble GW units' is A-OK - as it neither promotes nor endorses illegal sculpt duplication.

Not to mention the fact that fictional universes with wide fan support take on a life of their own independent of the company, and are hardly tied to its continued existence. IX Age is very much a thing now traditional Warhammer is gone, and when Bloodbowl got dropped altogether, fans and smaller companies sprang up to support it. If everyone gets bored of GW prices and rules, and the resulting exodus to 3D print resulted in the demise of GW; it would simply continue in other formats.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 17:57:58


Post by: Blackie


 Aenar wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Blackie wrote:

Absolutely. And a 2000 points 3D printed army is typically far more expensive than an original GW one if it's bought from someone else or if the player had to pay for the printer as well.

If that was even close to true we wouldn't be discussing this.

No? How much would a 3D printed 2000 points army cost? All things considered, including the actual cost of the printer and time spent on learning how to design, print and clean the models.

3D printing is a long term investment, if you want thousands of points of stuff then it's a cheaper solution than buying the original stuff. Now everyone wants that, and not everyone has the patience or skills to make their own models.

And 3D printed stuff that is on the market is not really cheaper than GW stuff.

Even by considering all the related costs, it depends on the army.
Probably 2000 points of Custodes (excluding expensive FW units) would be cheaper with official models.
2000 points of AdMech, GSC, Guard, ...? It depends.

A cheap resin 3D printer (Anycubic Photon) costs $140 (USD), plus resin ($50-60 for two liters of resin, but again it depends on the faction), isopropyl alcohol to clean prints ($30), random paper towels and similar stuff ($20?).
You can also add a wash&cure machine to properly prepare the prints for painting ($100), or do it yourself with a couple of buckets full of alcohol and then leaving the models under the sun.
Total: $250-350 to get a printer and print a full 2000 points army.
You could get a 4K printer, a mono printer, a larger printer, ... and spend a little bit more. But the cheapest one I've seen, the one I own, is capable of printing incredible details.

This would be the cost for the first army. The second one would cost obviously less.

As for the time investment in learning how to use it, it's not rocket science. It involves a lot of trial & error to get to know your particular printer and to dial in the correct print settings. But it can be easily done over a couple of weeks.


What about time spent on learning how to design the models? Something can be found for free on the internet, granted, but typically files must be paid. And designing own models takes really a lot of time to master.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 18:28:17


Post by: Racerguy180


Gert wrote:A 3d printer is a relatively complex piece of equipment, you try selling the 40k hobby to a bunch of kids/teens off the back of buying a 3d printer, and very few are going to pick you up on it.
It's all well and good to say learning 3d printing only takes a few weeks but it's hardly the same as buying models
.


If the technology for home SLA printing at the resolutions available now, you had shown a teenage me this I would've been all over it. I already had exposure to industrial 3d SLA but it required some finishing up machining and not quite ready for primetime. That was on a $400k machine in 1993. The mere fact that for less than $500 today you can get a printer that blows stuff out of the water is unbelievable.
Give it 5yrs with all in one printers(SLA, FDM, sintering) and you could basically have the beginnings of a STC(minus the abominable intelligence...)


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 18:33:47


Post by: JNAProductions


 Blackie wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Blackie wrote:

Absolutely. And a 2000 points 3D printed army is typically far more expensive than an original GW one if it's bought from someone else or if the player had to pay for the printer as well.

If that was even close to true we wouldn't be discussing this.

No? How much would a 3D printed 2000 points army cost? All things considered, including the actual cost of the printer and time spent on learning how to design, print and clean the models.

3D printing is a long term investment, if you want thousands of points of stuff then it's a cheaper solution than buying the original stuff. Now everyone wants that, and not everyone has the patience or skills to make their own models.

And 3D printed stuff that is on the market is not really cheaper than GW stuff.

Even by considering all the related costs, it depends on the army.
Probably 2000 points of Custodes (excluding expensive FW units) would be cheaper with official models.
2000 points of AdMech, GSC, Guard, ...? It depends.

A cheap resin 3D printer (Anycubic Photon) costs $140 (USD), plus resin ($50-60 for two liters of resin, but again it depends on the faction), isopropyl alcohol to clean prints ($30), random paper towels and similar stuff ($20?).
You can also add a wash&cure machine to properly prepare the prints for painting ($100), or do it yourself with a couple of buckets full of alcohol and then leaving the models under the sun.
Total: $250-350 to get a printer and print a full 2000 points army.
You could get a 4K printer, a mono printer, a larger printer, ... and spend a little bit more. But the cheapest one I've seen, the one I own, is capable of printing incredible details.

This would be the cost for the first army. The second one would cost obviously less.

As for the time investment in learning how to use it, it's not rocket science. It involves a lot of trial & error to get to know your particular printer and to dial in the correct print settings. But it can be easily done over a couple of weeks.


What about time spent on learning how to design the models? Something can be found for free on the internet, granted, but typically files must be paid. And designing own models takes really a lot of time to master.
How many unique models do you need for a 2k army?

Assuming the $250-350 figure is accurate on actual costs, that leaves you with about $250-350 to pay for files and STILL be cheaper than a GW army.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 18:46:21


Post by: Sim-Life


 Blackie wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Blackie wrote:

Absolutely. And a 2000 points 3D printed army is typically far more expensive than an original GW one if it's bought from someone else or if the player had to pay for the printer as well.

If that was even close to true we wouldn't be discussing this.

No? How much would a 3D printed 2000 points army cost? All things considered, including the actual cost of the printer and time spent on learning how to design, print and clean the models.

3D printing is a long term investment, if you want thousands of points of stuff then it's a cheaper solution than buying the original stuff. Now everyone wants that, and not everyone has the patience or skills to make their own models.

And 3D printed stuff that is on the market is not really cheaper than GW stuff.

Even by considering all the related costs, it depends on the army.
Probably 2000 points of Custodes (excluding expensive FW units) would be cheaper with official models.
2000 points of AdMech, GSC, Guard, ...? It depends.

A cheap resin 3D printer (Anycubic Photon) costs $140 (USD), plus resin ($50-60 for two liters of resin, but again it depends on the faction), isopropyl alcohol to clean prints ($30), random paper towels and similar stuff ($20?).
You can also add a wash&cure machine to properly prepare the prints for painting ($100), or do it yourself with a couple of buckets full of alcohol and then leaving the models under the sun.
Total: $250-350 to get a printer and print a full 2000 points army.
You could get a 4K printer, a mono printer, a larger printer, ... and spend a little bit more. But the cheapest one I've seen, the one I own, is capable of printing incredible details.

This would be the cost for the first army. The second one would cost obviously less.

As for the time investment in learning how to use it, it's not rocket science. It involves a lot of trial & error to get to know your particular printer and to dial in the correct print settings. But it can be easily done over a couple of weeks.


What about time spent on learning how to design the models? Something can be found for free on the internet, granted, but typically files must be paid. And designing own models takes really a lot of time to master.


Still cheaper to pay for an STL than a GW kit.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 19:13:27


Post by: Gert


Racerguy180 wrote:
If the technology for home SLA printing at the resolutions available now, you had shown a teenage me this I would've been all over it. I already had exposure to industrial 3d SLA but it required some finishing up machining and not quite ready for primetime. That was on a $400k machine in 1993. The mere fact that for less than $500 today you can get a printer that blows stuff out of the water is unbelievable.
Give it 5yrs with all in one printers(SLA, FDM, sintering) and you could basically have the beginnings of a STC(minus the abominable intelligence...)

This misses the point entirely.
How many of you had access to £400 when you were a kid/teen? Because the average purchase for my group was once a month, less if it was something big, and almost always relied on birthdays/Christmas/other big events to get anything more than one box of models. Hell even now as an adult spending that much money on a single product has to have serious justification. I spent about 4 months waiting and worrying before I nabbed a PC that was actually good because it was a lot of money. My average monthly hobby budget, in a good month, is £100.
It doesn't matter if the technology is great because when it comes down to it I'm not waiting a month before I can even begin to start printing models, let alone using them in games. A SC/Starter Box can easily be built in a week and at that point, you're good to play games.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 19:19:12


Post by: Racerguy180


I'm pretty sure what I paid for my squats would've been close enuff to make it a viable choice.

Mowing lawns was an easy way to make $$$ & that would've been about 2.5mo of saving to achieve.
If you as a teenager would not have been able to be patient to wait, how in the hell would you have the patience to build/paint them?


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 19:21:50


Post by: Sim-Life


 Gert wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
If the technology for home SLA printing at the resolutions available now, you had shown a teenage me this I would've been all over it. I already had exposure to industrial 3d SLA but it required some finishing up machining and not quite ready for primetime. That was on a $400k machine in 1993. The mere fact that for less than $500 today you can get a printer that blows stuff out of the water is unbelievable.
Give it 5yrs with all in one printers(SLA, FDM, sintering) and you could basically have the beginnings of a STC(minus the abominable intelligence...)

This misses the point entirely.
How many of you had access to £400 when you were a kid/teen? Because the average purchase for my group was once a month, less if it was something big, and almost always relied on birthdays/Christmas/other big events to get anything more than one box of models. Hell even now as an adult spending that much money on a single product has to have serious justification. I spent about 4 months waiting and worrying before I nabbed a PC that was actually good because it was a lot of money. My average monthly hobby budget, in a good month, is £100.
It doesn't matter if the technology is great because when it comes down to it I'm not waiting a month before I can even begin to start printing models, let alone using them in games. A SC/Starter Box can easily be built in a week and at that point, you're good to play games.


We live in a world where kids regularly get the latest iPad or iPhone for their Christmas/birthday. They cost WAY more than the cost of an entry level 3D printer


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 19:26:04


Post by: Dudeface


 Sim-Life wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
If the technology for home SLA printing at the resolutions available now, you had shown a teenage me this I would've been all over it. I already had exposure to industrial 3d SLA but it required some finishing up machining and not quite ready for primetime. That was on a $400k machine in 1993. The mere fact that for less than $500 today you can get a printer that blows stuff out of the water is unbelievable.
Give it 5yrs with all in one printers(SLA, FDM, sintering) and you could basically have the beginnings of a STC(minus the abominable intelligence...)

This misses the point entirely.
How many of you had access to £400 when you were a kid/teen? Because the average purchase for my group was once a month, less if it was something big, and almost always relied on birthdays/Christmas/other big events to get anything more than one box of models. Hell even now as an adult spending that much money on a single product has to have serious justification. I spent about 4 months waiting and worrying before I nabbed a PC that was actually good because it was a lot of money. My average monthly hobby budget, in a good month, is £100.
It doesn't matter if the technology is great because when it comes down to it I'm not waiting a month before I can even begin to start printing models, let alone using them in games. A SC/Starter Box can easily be built in a week and at that point, you're good to play games.


We live in a world where kids regularly get the latest iPad or iPhone for their Christmas/birthday. They cost WAY more than the cost of an entry level 3D printer


I'd wager most 13 year old still won't be getting bought a £200+ delicate piece of machinery with a bucket of toxic resin for christmas.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 19:26:30


Post by: Gert


Racerguy180 wrote:
I'm pretty sure what I paid for my squats would've been close enuff to make it a viable choice.

Mowing lawns was an easy way to make $$$ & that would've been about 2.5mo of saving to achieve.
If you as a teenager would not have been able to be patient to wait, how in the hell would you have the patience to build/paint them?

Because it doesn't take a month to assemble miniatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:
We live in a world where kids regularly get the latest iPad or iPhone for their Christmas/birthday. They cost WAY more than the cost of an entry level 3D printer

And they don't take a month to learn how to use + time after that before it starts becoming worth the purchase.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 19:28:18


Post by: Sim-Life


Dudeface wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
If the technology for home SLA printing at the resolutions available now, you had shown a teenage me this I would've been all over it. I already had exposure to industrial 3d SLA but it required some finishing up machining and not quite ready for primetime. That was on a $400k machine in 1993. The mere fact that for less than $500 today you can get a printer that blows stuff out of the water is unbelievable.
Give it 5yrs with all in one printers(SLA, FDM, sintering) and you could basically have the beginnings of a STC(minus the abominable intelligence...)

This misses the point entirely.
How many of you had access to £400 when you were a kid/teen? Because the average purchase for my group was once a month, less if it was something big, and almost always relied on birthdays/Christmas/other big events to get anything more than one box of models. Hell even now as an adult spending that much money on a single product has to have serious justification. I spent about 4 months waiting and worrying before I nabbed a PC that was actually good because it was a lot of money. My average monthly hobby budget, in a good month, is £100.
It doesn't matter if the technology is great because when it comes down to it I'm not waiting a month before I can even begin to start printing models, let alone using them in games. A SC/Starter Box can easily be built in a week and at that point, you're good to play games.


We live in a world where kids regularly get the latest iPad or iPhone for their Christmas/birthday. They cost WAY more than the cost of an entry level 3D printer


I'd wager most 13 year old still won't be getting bought a £200+ delicate piece of machinery with a bucket of toxic resin for christmas.


If parents are stupid enough to buy them internet machines, they're stupid enough to buy them buckets of poison for them to make models.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 19:34:39


Post by: Gert


 Sim-Life wrote:

If parents are stupid enough to buy them internet machines, they're stupid enough to buy them buckets of poison for them to make models.

You do know parental locks are a thing right? That there are different versions of services for kids? That a phone is not in any way comparable to a chemical substance?


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 19:45:57


Post by: Dysartes


Arguably, the phone is more dangerous.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 19:48:09


Post by: Flinty


You don’t agitate for a printer for yourself. You convince your parent(s) that it’ll be an amazing hobby device that they can use as well! Then Just get them to make stuff for you.

Teenagers don’t tend to exist in isolation.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 19:53:01


Post by: Templarted


 Flinty wrote:
You don’t agitate for a printer for yourself. You convince your parent(s) that it’ll be an amazing hobby device that they can use as well! Then Just get them to make stuff for you.

Teenagers don’t tend to exist in isolation.


Most parents probably think that painting toy soldiers is just a craze that they would get bored of and move on, so sinking a large amount of money on a device to print them and do little else would be a waste of money. Plus any teenager would most likely go for a games console than a 3D printer if they wanted a large gift.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 19:56:11


Post by: Sim-Life


Templarted wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
You don’t agitate for a printer for yourself. You convince your parent(s) that it’ll be an amazing hobby device that they can use as well! Then Just get them to make stuff for you.

Teenagers don’t tend to exist in isolation.


Most parents probably think that painting toy soldiers is just a craze that they would get bored of and move on, so sinking a large amount of money on a device to print them and do little else would be a waste of money. Plus any teenager would most likely go for a games console than a 3D printer if they wanted a large gift.


You know people have more than one birthday and Christmas happens EVERY year, right? And as has been stated, Warhammer costs just as much and printer LESS than a console.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

If parents are stupid enough to buy them internet machines, they're stupid enough to buy them buckets of poison for them to make models.

You do know parental locks are a thing right? That there are different versions of services for kids? That a phone is not in any way comparable to a chemical substance?


You are a very naive person if you think every parent regulates their child's internet usage. Especially if you don't think teenagers can't work out how to look at stuff they shouldn't be.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 20:07:52


Post by: jeff white


 Gert wrote:
 jeff white wrote:
Roughly 5 to 1 in favor of 3d printing.
After seeing the reception here, I know where my hobby dollars are going when and if we ever get a stable home again.

I thought you were just wondering in general not making an actual decision. Ask your locals, you'll get a much more accurate reaction.
Forums tend to be polarised and are a poor representation of real-world communities, which is interesting because so far this thread hasn't been so bad with regards to insults and vendettas.

I wanted to hear from others first, as I understand that biases are prejudice and should be informed before action… guess I have made enough mistakes to learn this lesson, and at more than 5 to 1 in favor of 3D printing, well… yeah. I am comfortable moving on. GW is too expensive and many of their designs lately are too far from home, for me. I don’t even like restartes armor, and hate the so called orruk look. The new swamp stuff is cool, and their new multi layering for depth using plastic can offer a fantastic sense of depth, but it seems that Indy artists with their new print files can provide similar qualities, and months from now who knows where we will be. So, yeah, I don’t like the new hammer CCG style gameplay on kitchen tables, don’t like the kid friendly reskin of the not so grim darkness… not into Warhammer plus eubscription services, and have exactly zero members of any local scene so… yeah. I can feel the wind blowing and will be filling my sales pun intended by moving in that direction …


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 20:11:13


Post by: Templarted


 Sim-Life wrote:
Templarted wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
You don’t agitate for a printer for yourself. You convince your parent(s) that it’ll be an amazing hobby device that they can use as well! Then Just get them to make stuff for you.

Teenagers don’t tend to exist in isolation.


Most parents probably think that painting toy soldiers is just a craze that they would get bored of and move on, so sinking a large amount of money on a device to print them and do little else would be a waste of money. Plus any teenager would most likely go for a games console than a 3D printer if they wanted a large gift.


You know people have more than one birthday and Christmas happens EVERY year, right? And as has been stated, Warhammer costs just as much and printer LESS than a console.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

If parents are stupid enough to buy them internet machines, they're stupid enough to buy them buckets of poison for them to make models.

You do know parental locks are a thing right? That there are different versions of services for kids? That a phone is not in any way comparable to a chemical substance?


You are a very naive person if you think every parent regulates their child's internet usage. Especially if you don't think teenagers can't work out how to look at stuff they shouldn't be.


A 3d printer still costs less than virtually any Warhammer set, and it’s still a big purchase along with all the consumables to use it. It’s a huge start up cost for something with very little use. Most parents would be apprehensive about spending that amount of money on something with little use and will most likely be forgotten about within a year.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 20:14:13


Post by: jeff white


 Gert wrote:
A 3d printer is a relatively complex piece of equipment, you try selling the 40k hobby to a bunch of kids/teens off the back of buying a 3d printer, and very few are going to pick you up on it.
It's all well and good to say learning 3d printing only takes a few weeks but it's hardly the same as buying models. To get good quality stuff you have to be good at 3d printing/get a good printer and if you beans it, you're left with nothing. On the other side, a beginner who buys their models isn't expected to be a "Golden Demon" standard painter. The learning curve with painting is a hell of a lot simpler IMO than 3d printing, especially with things like Contrast. Of course, that's even if you care about painting in the first place. The only thing you actually need to do with bought models is build them.
It's not a case of instant gratification, it's more "why should I spend £300 on a printer, wait a month before I actually know how to use it, then print models".
Anyway, that's just my opinion on the whole "3d printing will kill GW" thing.

I exalted this post because it is true. My answer would be because I can. I imagine that, as this tech becomes more common, many people will answer the same. GW will kill itself by forcing YouTube videos off the site if they use non gw models to play gw games during batreps. That is when the community will mutiny straight up. The grim dark is ours, always was. GW will learn that lesson too quickly if that is their chosen road.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Templarted wrote:
I don’t see it as being good for the local scene, near me it was completely dead until a FLGS opened up so I don’t want to 3D print whole armies and drive them out of business. That being said I do use 3D printed parts and bases on models and don’t really have a problem playing against them. I don’t see 3D printing really taking off for a few years, it’s still a high start up cost and a lot of hours to get it right. When software becomes more user friendly(I’m aware it might seem it to you but not to others with limited time) it will be a lot more common place, GW and most other model manufacturers will just produce vehicles and scenery.

If I had a flgs to frequent I would be buying ice creams and snacks and candybars and comics and kits here and there, maybe the occasional box set and preorder as I had been doing with the local gw shop when we lived near enough to get there… hope to have the chance again, and that the owners would be smart enough to build a lifestyle into the shop, not depending on boxset sales to pay the rent. Just saying…


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ketara wrote:
Spoiler:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I'm surprised that the mods aren't challenging/shutting down the endorsement of outright carbon copying.

They don't do it when people talk about pirating the rules, so why would they when it comes to the models?
Again, I just seem to recall when Dakka's mods operated on a rather strict "no recasting" policy, and such topics were rather quickly halted. I wonder if this is perhaps a change in policy on their end.


Arguments in favour of direct copies of GW sculpts have been against the rules, are against the rules, and will likely always be against the rules. Dakka has never endorsed illegal direct duplications of artistic sculpts. Note that saying 'Yeah, I'd play someone with a recast army', or 'I don't care about recasts' are merely personal expressions and consequently not the same thing as 'We should all be recasting models! Look at my huge army of recasts, you should do it too!' or 'You can buy recasts at Location X!' The latter is banned here, the former is not.

When it comes to someone printing out a Makers Cult Feudal Guard army however, that's basically the same as someone modifying some WW2 Germans to carry lasguns, or buying some plastics from Mantic to play with. Those are independent sculpts, and no matter how derivative of GW IP generally an independent sculpt may be, it's not a duplicate or a recast and not treated the same. Mods have better things to do then try and figure out if a model is 2% over the acceptable line of similarity to qualify as an IP infringement.

In other words, saying 'Yeah, I think we should all be playing 5th edition 40K with printed out proxies that can resemble GW units' is A-OK - as it neither promotes nor endorses illegal sculpt duplication.

Not to mention the fact that fictional universes with wide fan support take on a life of their own independent of the company, and are hardly tied to its continued existence. IX Age is very much a thing now traditional Warhammer is gone, and when Bloodbowl got dropped altogether, fans and smaller companies sprang up to support it.
If everyone gets bored of GW prices and rules, and the resulting exodus to 3D print resulted in the demise of GW; it would simply continue in other formats.

Thank you for this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Poll is top narrow in scope imo.

No to 3d printing
3d printing conversion parts
3d printing occasional models
3d printing units/armies from alternatives
OK with 3d printed gw knockoffs

Yeah, I tried to keep things simple and let the comments fill in the grey area…


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dysartes wrote:
Arguably, the phone is more dangerous.

So true… omg so true. Studies prove it. Resin chems are safe and educational by comparison.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 22:37:58


Post by: PenitentJake


Interesting thread. A few things from my POV:

I wouldn't hate working with resin models any less if I printed them myself, so I'd need a plastic printer. Period.

I've looked at 3rd party models before and I've purchased a few. It always seems like a good idea, but when I put them on the table as part of a mixed army, the lack of consistency- minor variations in scale and aesthetic, just smash the unity right out of the army, and I rarely end up fielding my third party minis.

Now I'm a dude who can't draw and doesn't know squat about CAD. So I'm getting all my files from the internet; the first thing this means is additional cost. But more importantly, if I can't find a single source for ALL of my models, I'm likely to have the same problem I do when I try third party models.

Do Wagames Exclusive Repentia, Raging Heroes Davidians, GW Metal Repentia and GW plastic repentia look good individually? Sure. Ever seen them side by side in the same army? Not so much.



3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 22:50:48


Post by: Flinty


There are vendors selling whole army sets that do address this issue.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 23:03:18


Post by: H.B.M.C.


The poll lacks a "I don't care" option for those that are in the middle.

Although the thread has been fun for Gert's assertions that 3D printers are really tough to use. Go back 25 years and replace "3D printer" with "this newfangled Interweb thing!" or even further back and "kids and their televisions!" and it sounds just as funny.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 23:10:36


Post by: cody.d.


Okay, but what about scratch builds? Do we consider it different because more effort was placed in it's production?

As an example, I made 2 ork FW Killtanks from a sizable amount of plasticard and bitz. Would there be any real difference between someone who created a 3D model and printed that?

Personally I think most of the issue comes from how much effort someone is putting into it


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 23:21:45


Post by: Sim-Life


Templarted wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Templarted wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
You don’t agitate for a printer for yourself. You convince your parent(s) that it’ll be an amazing hobby device that they can use as well! Then Just get them to make stuff for you.

Teenagers don’t tend to exist in isolation.


Most parents probably think that painting toy soldiers is just a craze that they would get bored of and move on, so sinking a large amount of money on a device to print them and do little else would be a waste of money. Plus any teenager would most likely go for a games console than a 3D printer if they wanted a large gift.


You know people have more than one birthday and Christmas happens EVERY year, right? And as has been stated, Warhammer costs just as much and printer LESS than a console.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:

If parents are stupid enough to buy them internet machines, they're stupid enough to buy them buckets of poison for them to make models.

You do know parental locks are a thing right? That there are different versions of services for kids? That a phone is not in any way comparable to a chemical substance?


You are a very naive person if you think every parent regulates their child's internet usage. Especially if you don't think teenagers can't work out how to look at stuff they shouldn't be.


A 3d printer still costs less than virtually any Warhammer set, and it’s still a big purchase along with all the consumables to use it. It’s a huge start up cost for something with very little use. Most parents would be apprehensive about spending that amount of money on something with little use and will most likely be forgotten about within a year.


You could literally say the same about Warhammer itself.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 23:32:49


Post by: Gert


 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Although the thread has been fun for Gert's assertions that 3D printers are really tough to use. Go back 25 years and replace "3D printer" with "this newfangled Interweb thing!" or even further back and "kids and their televisions!" and it sounds just as funny.

People in this thread said that learning to use one would take a month. Something that's easy to learn doesn't take a month. They also said it takes a lot of trial and error. Again to me, if someone is saying this new thing is going to take a lot of trial and error even after learning how to do said thing which takes a month to learn, then it's not easy.
Do you have a personal issue with me or something btw because it felt a bit unnecessary for you to be rude just there.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 23:36:24


Post by: leerm02


Just thought I'd chip in to say that at this point I have gotten at least one army's worth of 3d printed figs from etsy sellers and others (small apartment, so I can't get my own printer... yet...)

And while none of them are full armies of ONLY 3d printed figs (I also sprinkle in GW and 3rd party models,) I've spent a tiny fraction of what it costs to put together an entire GW army... and have 3 full armies at this point with lots of options.

Like it or not: 3d printing is the wave of the future.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/26 23:41:40


Post by: Sim-Life


 Gert wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Although the thread has been fun for Gert's assertions that 3D printers are really tough to use. Go back 25 years and replace "3D printer" with "this newfangled Interweb thing!" or even further back and "kids and their televisions!" and it sounds just as funny.

People in this thread said that learning to use one would take a month. Something that's easy to learn doesn't take a month. They also said it takes a lot of trial and error. Again to me, if someone is saying this new thing is going to take a lot of trial and error even after learning how to do said thing which takes a month to learn, then it's not easy.
Do you have a personal issue with me or something btw because it felt a bit unnecessary for you to be rude just there.


A kid I know of about 18 who got into Warhammer last year bought a 3D printer and started knocking up a Warlord titan within a few weeks of starting the hobby. He's not the most academic person and to this day he doesn't know how to play the game properly or make a legal army list despite multiple peoples efforts so it can't be that hard to learn how to print stuff.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 00:06:44


Post by: Flinty


 Gert wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Although the thread has been fun for Gert's assertions that 3D printers are really tough to use. Go back 25 years and replace "3D printer" with "this newfangled Interweb thing!" or even further back and "kids and their televisions!" and it sounds just as funny.

People in this thread said that learning to use one would take a month. Something that's easy to learn doesn't take a month. They also said it takes a lot of trial and error. Again to me, if someone is saying this new thing is going to take a lot of trial and error even after learning how to do said thing which takes a month to learn, then it's not easy.
Do you have a personal issue with me or something btw because it felt a bit unnecessary for you to be rude just there.


It’s incredibly easy to get decent results with modern printers. What takes a bit of practice is dialling the settings to be super crisp and to reduce likelihood of print failures. This is analogous to the learning you need to do to be able to trim, assemble, glue and remove mould lines from modern plastics. And the benefit of printing is that if you mess something up, it’s a matter of a few hours print time to get a new better one, rather than needing to fork out a fortune for a new box set

As an example, this was the second thing I ever printed using my resin printer and default settings and knowing nothing really about anything



It’s not perfect, and the underside is a terrible mess of support contact areas, but I think it stands up quite well against commercially available stuff, especially with my standard of painting.





3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 00:24:07


Post by: Ketara


 Gert wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Although the thread has been fun for Gert's assertions that 3D printers are really tough to use. Go back 25 years and replace "3D printer" with "this newfangled Interweb thing!" or even further back and "kids and their televisions!" and it sounds just as funny.

People in this thread said that learning to use one would take a month. Something that's easy to learn doesn't take a month. They also said it takes a lot of trial and error. Again to me, if someone is saying this new thing is going to take a lot of trial and error even after learning how to do said thing which takes a month to learn, then it's not easy.


To a large extent, the time period it takes to 'learn' to use a printer is naturally due to the time spent manufacturing or printing. For me to make a light buggy like vehicle on default settings, you're looking at a 5-6 hour print time. So essentially, you usually set it up for the day in the morning, then come back in the evening. Then you spend an evening watching some videos to tweak the settings. Then the weekend is over, so you wait until next weekend, when you set another print in motion. Etcetc.

By the time you're a month in, you've optimised your settings, gained the confidence to just walk away and leave it (I spent my first print turning and trying to check it every ten minutes out of paranoia) and just plug and play. You leave your resin in overnight because you've learned that's okay so long as the temperature is good - rather than washing everything and relevelling the bed in between each print. And so on.

If you could get all the testing and experience done without having to wait for the actual prints, you could do it in an afternoon or two. But having to stop and wait each time is what stretches out the experimental and learning phase.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 00:31:55


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gert wrote:
People in this thread said that learning to use one would take a month. Something that's easy to learn doesn't take a month. They also said it takes a lot of trial and error. Again to me, if someone is saying this new thing is going to take a lot of trial and error even after learning how to do said thing which takes a month to learn, then it's not easy.
I have a number of friends with 3D printers. One took quite a few prints to get it right. One made a mistake on his first print and hasn't made a mistake since. He even has two printers now. I don't know how to work one, but I figure anyone who's going to buy one isn't doing so casually and will actually put effort into the use of said machine both before and after purchasing it.

My point is that "it's difficult to learn!" isn't really an argument against such things, just an attempt to shut down the idea of having one. Speaking of which...

 Gert wrote:
Do you have a personal issue with me or something btw because it felt a bit unnecessary for you to be rude just there.
I have no personal issue with you, but what I haven't noticed over several recent threads in this sub-forum is that you tend to be the "Nope. Can't do that.", "Nope. I don't think that would ever work." or "Nope. Too hard. We shouldn't even try!" guy. So I come into this thread and, to my utter shock, here you are, poo-poo'ing the idea of 3D printing. I especially liked the "toxic resin" angle. That was a hoot!


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 00:55:18


Post by: GoldenHorde


 Gert wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Although the thread has been fun for Gert's assertions that 3D printers are really tough to use. Go back 25 years and replace "3D printer" with "this newfangled Interweb thing!" or even further back and "kids and their televisions!" and it sounds just as funny.

People in this thread said that learning to use one would take a month. Something that's easy to learn doesn't take a month. They also said it takes a lot of trial and error. Again to me, if someone is saying this new thing is going to take a lot of trial and error even after learning how to do said thing which takes a month to learn, then it's not easy.
Do you have a personal issue with me or something btw because it felt a bit unnecessary for you to be rude just there.


You seem to think kids are not intelligent nor determined enough to learn 3d printing.....let alone anything that requires effort. .....nice assumption


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 01:08:28


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Yeah. Kids learn dinosaur names that their parents can't even begin to pronounce. Kids will learn what they put their minds towards.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 01:10:15


Post by: BrianDavion


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The poll lacks a "I don't care" option for those that are in the middle.

Although the thread has been fun for Gert's assertions that 3D printers are really tough to use. Go back 25 years and replace "3D printer" with "this newfangled Interweb thing!" or even further back and "kids and their televisions!" and it sounds just as funny.


in fairness before internet browsers where a thing the internet wasn't the easiest to use


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 13:15:33


Post by: Huron black heart


I'm all for 3d printing. I'm a few weeks away from getting my own, currently we have fellow club members printing for those who ask.
I'm also ken on kickstarters, and it seems that about 75% of all wargaming related kickstarters are now files for 3d printing.
And whilst I'm a fan of GW and don't want to see them go under, I strongly believe this will have an impact on them and how they operate, although that impact/change may not be seen for a few years.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 13:32:47


Post by: catbarf


 Blackie wrote:
What about time spent on learning how to design the models? Something can be found for free on the internet, granted, but typically files must be paid. And designing own models takes really a lot of time to master.


Tons of content can be found for free, and content that is paid is almost always cheap compared to what actual minis do.

My friends and I bought six packs of 3D models with which to print out a whole army of modern Elysians and it cost us less than a single 10-pack of FW Elysians would have (even if they weren't OOP).

The vast, overwhelming majority of 3D printer users are not making their own models.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 13:48:17


Post by: Gert


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have a number of friends with 3D printers. One took quite a few prints to get it right. One made a mistake on his first print and hasn't made a mistake since. He even has two printers now. I don't know how to work one, but I figure anyone who's going to buy one isn't doing so casually and will actually put effort into the use of said machine both before and after purchasing it.

My point is that "it's difficult to learn!" isn't really an argument against such things, just an attempt to shut down the idea of having one. Speaking of which...

Nowhere have I tried to shut down the idea of getting one, it's a discussion and I am allowed, indeed I am supposed to, give my opinion. My opinion is informed by what people have said and what I have seen. The only people who seem intent on shutting down the discussion are the pro-3d printing side because every time I dare suggest that people should be cautious and not just listen to the pro side of the discussion, I get called a shill or it is heavily implied that I am stupid. My opinion has never just been "waaaah it's too hard" and if you'd actually read anything I'd written you'd see that.
Good for your friend that they got a handle on 3d printing, I hope they get joy out of it.

I have no personal issue with you, but what I haven't noticed over several recent threads in this sub-forum is that you tend to be the "Nope. Can't do that.", "Nope. I don't think that would ever work." or "Nope. Too hard. We shouldn't even try!" guy. So I come into this thread and, to my utter shock, here you are, poo-poo'ing the idea of 3D printing. I especially liked the "toxic resin" angle. That was a hoot!

Could've fooled me considering nobody else seems to be getting "named and shamed" as it was. And great job on being extremely reductive of my points which in no way makes it seem like you have a personal dislike of me and my opinions, no siree. As for the "toxic resin", I didn't actually say anything about it being toxic, I said comparing the ability to use a smartphone (a very intuitive and consumer-friendly piece of equipment) to a 3d printer was a bad comparison.
The fact that you and others are so immediately dismissive and reductive of my opinion just solidifies my position that the majority of the pro-3d printing crowd are elitist prats who like to pretend they're modern-day Robin Hoods sticking it to the evil GW overlords.
Stuff like this:
 jeff white wrote:
My answer would be because I can. I imagine that, as this tech becomes more common, many people will answer the same. GW will kill itself by forcing YouTube videos off the site if they use non gw models to play gw games during batreps. That is when the community will mutiny straight up. The grim dark is ours, always was. GW will learn that lesson too quickly if that is their chosen road.

The bit about YT is nonsense and has no basis in reality but to satisfy the anti-GW pro-3d printing side of the discussion it gets included. The part about "the grim dark is ours" is also utter tosh, none of us own any of it and never have. All you're doing is entrenching a toxic and aggressive position that anything new is bad which does nothing but actively drive people away from the hobby you all proclaim to love. The final part is a thinly veiled threat, which is just pathetic and disgusting. Get a grip for god's sake.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 15:34:53


Post by: Tawnis


I'm fine 3D printing things that GW doesn't make anymore (ex: Greater Knarlocs / Knarloc Riders) but if it's something that you can still buy, I'll pay GW for them because as gakky as they can be sometimes, I still feel like I should support the game I love.

So in saying that, I wish there was a middle ground vote of sometimes.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 21:13:57


Post by: jeff white


 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have a number of friends with 3D printers. One took quite a few prints to get it right. One made a mistake on his first print and hasn't made a mistake since. He even has two printers now. I don't know how to work one, but I figure anyone who's going to buy one isn't doing so casually and will actually put effort into the use of said machine both before and after purchasing it.

My point is that "it's difficult to learn!" isn't really an argument against such things, just an attempt to shut down the idea of having one. Speaking of which...

Nowhere have I tried to shut down the idea of getting one, it's a discussion and I am allowed, indeed I am supposed to, give my opinion. My opinion is informed by what people have said and what I have seen. The only people who seem intent on shutting down the discussion are the pro-3d printing side because every time I dare suggest that people should be cautious and not just listen to the pro side of the discussion, I get called a shill or it is heavily implied that I am stupid. My opinion has never just been "waaaah it's too hard" and if you'd actually read anything I'd written you'd see that.
Good for your friend that they got a handle on 3d printing, I hope they get joy out of it.

I have no personal issue with you, but what I haven't noticed over several recent threads in this sub-forum is that you tend to be the "Nope. Can't do that.", "Nope. I don't think that would ever work." or "Nope. Too hard. We shouldn't even try!" guy. So I come into this thread and, to my utter shock, here you are, poo-poo'ing the idea of 3D printing. I especially liked the "toxic resin" angle. That was a hoot!

Could've fooled me considering nobody else seems to be getting "named and shamed" as it was. And great job on being extremely reductive of my points which in no way makes it seem like you have a personal dislike of me and my opinions, no siree. As for the "toxic resin", I didn't actually say anything about it being toxic, I said comparing the ability to use a smartphone (a very intuitive and consumer-friendly piece of equipment) to a 3d printer was a bad comparison.
The fact that you and others are so immediately dismissive and reductive of my opinion just solidifies my position that the majority of the pro-3d printing crowd are elitist prats who like to pretend they're modern-day Robin Hoods sticking it to the evil GW overlords.
Stuff like this:
 jeff white wrote:
My answer would be because I can. I imagine that, as this tech becomes more common, many people will answer the same. GW will kill itself by forcing YouTube videos off the site if they use non gw models to play gw games during batreps. That is when the community will mutiny straight up. The grim dark is ours, always was. GW will learn that lesson too quickly if that is their chosen road.

The bit about YT is nonsense and has no basis in reality but to satisfy the anti-GW pro-3d printing side of the discussion it gets included. The part about "the grim dark is ours" is also utter tosh, none of us own any of it and never have.
All you're doing is entrenching a toxic and aggressive position that anything new is bad which does nothing but actively drive people away from the hobby you all proclaim to love. The final part is a thinly veiled threat, which is just pathetic and disgusting. Get a grip for god's sake.

Sorry that you feel that way. I started the thread because I was honestly interested in what I might expect if I met the Dakka demographic in a local shop on game night, not to set up a dunk on gw. And seeing as how 3D printing is new, at least for me, I am a bit at a loss as to how to respond to your sentiment …

I guess you mean anything new that comes from gw and there are two ways to interpret this. One is anything new at all, as if nothing but a return to second Ed could make me happy. The other is that what gw has done, new, lately is not good and I don’t even think that is true. I would like to play more ninth, small games and without command points etc, probably, and I like a lot of the new plastics. Heck, I don’t even mind monopose models as I enjoy cutting stuff up and converting the hard way, as with metal models. What I don’t like is no model no rules nonsense, overly restrictive ip nonsense, and restartes, actually I do not like restartes. But, I am here a lot, because I have invested more than half my life maybe closer to two thirds in this hobby, in 40k for a lot of that.

Gw did not invent dystopia sci fi space operas. They originally played to people who watched dr who on tv and read Heinlein novels. The current community lives in these imaginations, educated broadly as it were. If “anything new” means that this imaginary universe is more of a theme park for people without such a background, then yeah, I don’t like that either. I like to spend my time with educated people who like to read other than fluff corporate fiction. I don’t want Disney and I hate arbitrary boundaries established to maximize profits for people who prey on others who can’t or worse won’t think for themselves. So, maybe you have a point but toxic… aggressive… no, I think not. That comes from somewhere else. Truth is truth. Listen to spikey bits or others, so many are much more realistic about gw as a model company. People have alternatives. Toxic fascist big corporate bullies are not so popular, anymore. Nobody likes google, fb, Twitter… like Coca Cola, the business model is to get young people addicted to dopamine and dependent on signalling for social worth. Sick…

I am proud of my gw model collection. I have been carrying hundreds of lovingly painted and converted gw models around the world for 25years and I have added to those, steadily, as I could afford to do so. I feel good when I put those down on a table and it wasn’t easy for me to come to this position, where I am ready to pay other artists for files to print once I can get a stable place to do that. Yeah, man, I don’t understand your hostility frankly. Gw exists in the same way that government exists, or laws exist, because we let them, we support them, and follow. When such become overly burdensome without adequate return, they become illegitimate, and we depose them. Every political philosophy worth its salt confirms this to be fact.

We make the future with our imaginations and we do it together, on and off the tabletop. Read anything in contemporary cog sci re predictive coding in the context of systems neuroscience and this is confirmed fact. I suppose that this can be scary, so maybe this is why there is such hostility in your post but whatever man, I don’t mean you any harm. Chill.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 21:33:24


Post by: Sim-Life


 Gert wrote:
The part about "the grim dark is ours" is also utter tosh, none of us own any of it and never have.


You can't honestly think that's true. If GW went under tomorrow 40k would still exist and alternate rules would be written just like how KoW and 9th Age came in to replace WHFB, the difference being the alternatives would allowed to use the copyrighted names.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 21:59:24


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


jeff white wrote:Sorry that you feel that way. I started the thread because I was honestly interested in what I might expect if I met the Dakka demographic in a local shop on game night, not to set up a dunk on gw. And seeing as how 3D printing is new, at least for me, I am a bit at a loss as to how to respond to your sentiment … I guess you mean anything new that comes from gw and there are two ways to interpret this. One is anything new at all, as if nothing but a return to second Ed could make me happy. The other is that what gw has done, new, lately is not good and I don’t even think that is true. I would like to play more ninth, small games and without command points etc, probably, and I like a lot of the new plastics. Heck, I don’t even mind monopose models as I enjoy cutting stuff up and converting the hard way, as with metal models. What I don’t like is no model no rules nonsense, overly restrictive ip nonsense, and restartes, actually I do not like restartes. But, I am here a lot, because I have invested more than half my life maybe closer to two thirds in this hobby, in 40k for a lot of that. Gw did not invent dystopia sci fi space operas. They originally played to people who watched dr who on tv and read Heinlein novels. The current community lives in these imaginations, educated broadly as it were. If “anything new” means that this imaginary universe is more of a theme park for people without such a background, then yeah, I don’t like that either. I like to spend my time with educated people who like to read other than fluff corporate fiction. I don’t want Disney and I hate arbitrary boundaries established to maximize profits for people who prey on others who can’t or worse won’t think for themselves. So, maybe you have a point but toxic… aggressive… no, I think not. That comes from somewhere else. Truth is truth. Listen to spikey bits or others, so many are much more realistic about gw as a model company. People have alternatives. Toxic fascist big corporate bullies are not so popular, anymore. Nobody likes google, fb, Twitter… like Coca Cola, the business model is to get young people addicted to dopamine and dependent on signalling for social worth. Sick… I am proud of my gw model collection. I have been carrying hundreds of lovingly painted and converted gw models around the world for 25years and I have added to those, steadily, as I could afford to do so. I feel good when I put those down on a table and it wasn’t easy for me to come to this position, where I am ready to pay other artists for files to print once I can get a stable place to do that. Yeah, man, I don’t understand your hostility frankly. Gw exists in the same way that government exists, or laws exist, because we let them, we support them, and follow. When such become overly burdensome without adequate return, they become illegitimate, and we depose them. Every political philosophy worth its salt confirms this to be fact. We make the future with our imaginations and we do it together, on and off the tabletop. Read anything in contemporary cog sci re predictive coding in the context of systems neuroscience and this is confirmed fact. I suppose that this can be scary, so maybe this is why there is such hostility in your post but whatever man, I don’t mean you any harm. Chill.
That's a lot of words, and I still have no idea what most of that comment has *anything* to do with your own thread premise. And I do seriously advise you actually learn what "fascist" means, instead of "thing I don't like", as well as maybe reflecting on the tone of this whole appeal to "the Old Guard" mentality.


Perhaps you ought to pay attention to the last word of your comment instead?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Gert wrote:
The part about "the grim dark is ours" is also utter tosh, none of us own any of it and never have.


You can't honestly think that's true. If GW went under tomorrow 40k would still exist and alternate rules would be written just like how KoW and 9th Age came in to replace WHFB, the difference being the alternatives would allowed to use the copyrighted names.
By that, they are referring to this idea of audience ownership, and how the audience are apparently the "True" inheritors of the fandom, as if a single version ever existed.

40k can exist without GW, but this whole "We, The People, Own The GrimDark" is just posturing.

People can do what they like with 40k already, though I do still frown on carbon-copying from *any* creator, big or small.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 22:55:52


Post by: PenitentJake


 Sim-Life wrote:
 Gert wrote:
The part about "the grim dark is ours" is also utter tosh, none of us own any of it and never have.


You can't honestly think that's true. If GW went under tomorrow 40k would still exist and alternate rules would be written just like how KoW and 9th Age came in to replace WHFB, the difference being the alternatives would allowed to use the copyrighted names.


You are correct, but none of us would be able to do that if GW hadn't created the IP back in '87.

When I saw Jeff's original post, I wanted to break it like this:

"The Grim Dark is ours" - True
"And always was" False, because none of us invented it, and because 40k's first decade was pre-internet (or to be accurate, accessible, mainstream internet).

You can praise one page rules; it wouldn't exist if GW hadn't made the game.
You can praise prohammer- it wouldn't exist if GW hadn't made the game.

To pretend that any of the Wannabe-Hammer 3d modellers would exist if GW hadn't invented the game is also false- W. Artel would not exist in the timeline where Rogue Trader never happened, and Raging Heroes and Wargames Exclusive wouldn't exist either. And it isn't even just Rogue Trader; DE weren't invented until 3rd, and both Artel and Raging Heroes have extensive DE knock-offs. T'au came along after that, and WGE is knocking them off too. Had GW not done it first, none of this would have existed.

Note: This isn't condemning one page rules, or prohammer, or W Artel- I like'em all, and I'm glad they exist because a greater number of people get to be happy. This is also not saying these things wouldn't limp along for another 5-10 years if GW goes under- you're right, they would. But a decade would be about it, because without a huge mainstream foot print to attract thousands of new players every year, any of these stop gaps, no matter how awesome they are, are on limited time.

If GW survives on the other hand, the game will exist indefinitely. You may hate corporate policies- I do too actually- but there's no denying that the huge corporate footprint has kept the game alive for three decades, and the games survival for the next 3, 5, 10 decades will require that footprint as well, though as I said, you're right it would limp on in several fragmented versions of what we have now, while eager hipsters struggle to come up with this rules set or that 3d print, as others push a different rules set and different 3d prints.

You all may be too-cool-for-school enough that you think it's edgy and hip to search the internet for disparate threads that you can stitch together to create some semblance of a game, and you might even be popular enough to pimp it out to enough people to create some semblance of community. Good bye tournaments- as much as you may like Prohammer (and again, nothing against prohammer- I do genuinely and sincerely applaud your dedication and accomplishments), how many prohammer tournaments have you been too? One page rule tournaments?

(Cue the crickets)

Yeah, that's what I thought.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/27 22:59:08


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gert wrote:
The fact that you and others are so immediately dismissive and reductive of my opinion just solidifies my position that the majority of the pro-3d printing crowd are elitist prats who like to pretend they're modern-day Robin Hoods sticking it to the evil GW overlords.
Are we reading the same thread? Plenty of people have gone into detail explaining what they mean without being "reductive", and you're acting as if they're coming after you personally.

Who's being elitist now?


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/28 01:08:43


Post by: ccs


 jeff white wrote:

Sorry that you feel that way.
Spoiler:
I started the thread because I was honestly interested in what I might expect if I met the Dakka demographic in a local shop on game night, not to set up a dunk on gw. And seeing as how 3D printing is new, at least for me, I am a bit at a loss as to how to respond to your sentiment … I guess you mean anything new that comes from gw and there are two ways to interpret this. One is anything new at all, as if nothing but a return to second Ed could make me happy. The other is that what gw has done, new, lately is not good and I don’t even think that is true. I would like to play more ninth, small games and without command points etc, probably, and I like a lot of the new plastics. Heck, I don’t even mind monopose models as I enjoy cutting stuff up and converting the hard way, as with metal models. What I don’t like is no model no rules nonsense, overly restrictive ip nonsense, and restartes, actually I do not like restartes. But, I am here a lot, because I have invested more than half my life maybe closer to two thirds in this hobby, in 40k for a lot of that. Gw did not invent dystopia sci fi space operas. They originally played to people who watched dr who on tv and read Heinlein novels. The current community lives in these imaginations, educated broadly as it were. If “anything new” means that this imaginary universe is more of a theme park for people without such a background, then yeah, I don’t like that either. I like to spend my time with educated people who like to read other than fluff corporate fiction. I don’t want Disney and I hate arbitrary boundaries established to maximize profits for people who prey on others who can’t or worse won’t think for themselves. So, maybe you have a point but toxic… aggressive… no, I think not. That comes from somewhere else. Truth is truth. Listen to spikey bits or others, so many are much more realistic about gw as a model company. People have alternatives. Toxic fascist big corporate bullies are not so popular, anymore. Nobody likes google, fb, Twitter… like Coca Cola, the business model is to get young people addicted to dopamine and dependent on signalling for social worth. Sick… I am proud of my gw model collection. I have been carrying hundreds of lovingly painted and converted gw models around the world for 25years and I have added to those, steadily, as I could afford to do so. I feel good when I put those down on a table and it wasn’t easy for me to come to this position, where I am ready to pay other artists for files to print once I can get a stable place to do that. Yeah, man, I don’t understand your hostility frankly. Gw exists in the same way that government exists, or laws exist, because we let them, we support them, and follow. When such become overly burdensome without adequate return, they become illegitimate, and we depose them. Every political philosophy worth its salt confirms this to be fact. We make the future with our imaginations and we do it together, on and off the tabletop. Read anything in contemporary cog sci re predictive coding in the context of systems neuroscience and this is confirmed fact. I suppose that this can be scary, so maybe this is why there is such hostility in your post but whatever man, I don’t mean you any harm.
Chill.


Good Lord, haven't you heard of these things called paragraphs???


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/28 01:13:29


Post by: Daedalus81


Speaking of -- I lost my magentized heldrake head. Anyone able to PM me someone that might be able to print one or some facsimile?


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/28 04:24:07


Post by: Insectum7


BrianDavion wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The poll lacks a "I don't care" option for those that are in the middle.

Although the thread has been fun for Gert's assertions that 3D printers are really tough to use. Go back 25 years and replace "3D printer" with "this newfangled Interweb thing!" or even further back and "kids and their televisions!" and it sounds just as funny.


in fairness before internet browsers where a thing the internet wasn't the easiest to use
I have this wild memory of going over to a friends house, and him explaining to me that his dads computer was connected to other computers somewhere. I remember watching him enter some commands, and over some number of minutes we got back an image or graphic of some kind. I was friends with this kid in 2nd grade, and I want to say that was in 1986.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah. Kids learn dinosaur names that their parents can't even begin to pronounce. Kids will learn what they put their minds towards.
Pachycephalasaurus.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/28 04:31:17


Post by: Racerguy180


My nephew who you can understand about every 5th work of, can say Pachycephalasaurus perfectly.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/28 04:45:00


Post by: Insectum7


Racerguy180 wrote:
My nephew who you can understand about every 5th work of, can say Pachycephalasaurus perfectly.
A kid after my own heart, that's so fuggin great!


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/28 06:26:14


Post by: jeff white


ccs wrote:
 jeff white wrote:

Sorry that you feel that way.
Spoiler:
I started the thread because I was honestly interested in what I might expect if I met the Dakka demographic in a local shop on game night, not to set up a dunk on gw. And seeing as how 3D printing is new, at least for me, I am a bit at a loss as to how to respond to your sentiment … I guess you mean anything new that comes from gw and there are two ways to interpret this. One is anything new at all, as if nothing but a return to second Ed could make me happy. The other is that what gw has done, new, lately is not good and I don’t even think that is true. I would like to play more ninth, small games and without command points etc, probably, and I like a lot of the new plastics. Heck, I don’t even mind monopose models as I enjoy cutting stuff up and converting the hard way, as with metal models. What I don’t like is no model no rules nonsense, overly restrictive ip nonsense, and restartes, actually I do not like restartes. But, I am here a lot, because I have invested more than half my life maybe closer to two thirds in this hobby, in 40k for a lot of that. Gw did not invent dystopia sci fi space operas. They originally played to people who watched dr who on tv and read Heinlein novels. The current community lives in these imaginations, educated broadly as it were. If “anything new” means that this imaginary universe is more of a theme park for people without such a background, then yeah, I don’t like that either. I like to spend my time with educated people who like to read other than fluff corporate fiction. I don’t want Disney and I hate arbitrary boundaries established to maximize profits for people who prey on others who can’t or worse won’t think for themselves. So, maybe you have a point but toxic… aggressive… no, I think not. That comes from somewhere else. Truth is truth. Listen to spikey bits or others, so many are much more realistic about gw as a model company. People have alternatives. Toxic fascist big corporate bullies are not so popular, anymore. Nobody likes google, fb, Twitter… like Coca Cola, the business model is to get young people addicted to dopamine and dependent on signalling for social worth. Sick… I am proud of my gw model collection. I have been carrying hundreds of lovingly painted and converted gw models around the world for 25years and I have added to those, steadily, as I could afford to do so. I feel good when I put those down on a table and it wasn’t easy for me to come to this position, where I am ready to pay other artists for files to print once I can get a stable place to do that. Yeah, man, I don’t understand your hostility frankly. Gw exists in the same way that government exists, or laws exist, because we let them, we support them, and follow. When such become overly burdensome without adequate return, they become illegitimate, and we depose them. Every political philosophy worth its salt confirms this to be fact. We make the future with our imaginations and we do it together, on and off the tabletop. Read anything in contemporary cog sci re predictive coding in the context of systems neuroscience and this is confirmed fact. I suppose that this can be scary, so maybe this is why there is such hostility in your post but whatever man, I don’t mean you any harm.
Chill.


Good Lord, haven't you heard of these things called paragraphs???

Fify


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Gert wrote:
The part about "the grim dark is ours" is also utter tosh, none of us own any of it and never have.


You can't honestly think that's true. If GW went under tomorrow 40k would still exist and alternate rules would be written just like how KoW and 9th Age came in to replace WHFB, the difference being the alternatives would allowed to use the copyrighted names.


You are correct, but none of us would be able to do that if GW hadn't created the IP back in '87.
Spoiler:

When I saw Jeff's original post, I wanted to break it like this:

"The Grim Dark is ours" - True
"And always was" False, because none of us invented it, and because 40k's first decade was pre-internet (or to be accurate, accessible, mainstream internet).

You can praise one page rules; it wouldn't exist if GW hadn't made the game.
You can praise prohammer- it wouldn't exist if GW hadn't made the game.

To pretend that any of the Wannabe-Hammer 3d modellers would exist if GW hadn't invented the game is also false- W. Artel would not exist in the timeline where Rogue Trader never happened, and Raging Heroes and Wargames Exclusive wouldn't exist either. And it isn't even just Rogue Trader; DE weren't invented until 3rd, and both Artel and Raging Heroes have extensive DE knock-offs. T'au came along after that, and WGE is knocking them off too. Had GW not done it first, none of this would have existed.

Note: This isn't condemning one page rules, or prohammer, or W Artel- I like'em all, and I'm glad they exist because a greater number of people get to be happy. This is also not saying these things wouldn't limp along for another 5-10 years if GW goes under- you're right, they would. But a decade would be about it, because without a huge mainstream foot print to attract thousands of new players every year, any of these stop gaps, no matter how awesome they are, are on limited time.

If GW survives on the other hand, the game will exist indefinitely. You may hate corporate policies- I do too actually- but there's no denying that the huge corporate footprint has kept the game alive for three decades, and the games survival for the next 3, 5, 10 decades will require that footprint as well, though as I said, you're right it would limp on in several fragmented versions of what we have now, while eager hipsters struggle to come up with this rules set or that 3d print, as others push a different rules set and different 3d prints.

You all may be too-cool-for-school enough that you think it's edgy and hip to search the internet for disparate threads that you can stitch together to create some semblance of a game, and you might even be popular enough to pimp it out to enough people to create some semblance of community. Good bye tournaments- as much as you may like Prohammer (and again, nothing against prohammer- I do genuinely and sincerely applaud your dedication and accomplishments), how many prohammer tournaments have you been too? One page rule tournaments?

(Cue the crickets)

Yeah, that's what I thought.



40k got popular by lumping every trope from Middle earth to Mars into a single clearinghouse for people, who had so many dungeons and dragons typically citadel or ral partha minis that they didn’t know what else to do with them, into a single skirmish or in wfb rank and file classic wargame.

Their efforts succeeded because our imaginations could support the efforts. If they hadn’t done it, someone else would have, and there were at the time alternatives. In such a case something else would have caught the wave of enthusiasm in the demographic, and we would here and now be bickering over something else, 2020AD or some other system whose og creative talent also likely jumped ship as their management took after the greed is good mentality that has ruined every other industry on Earth since as well.

Gw is not special. 40k is what evolutionary theorists may call a frozen accident. What is irreplaceable is the collective imagination of the community that makes their success possible. See, first, to survive, there must be a niche for an organism to adapt into. That is our minds. Then it can work at transforming that niche. So, we see gw doing that with their yt takedowns and so on… simple science.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/28 11:45:37


Post by: scarletsquig


I mainly don't have a resin printer because I don't play GW games. If I did, £700 for a 40k army vs £70 of resin would be no contest.

With other manufacturers out there who stick to around £1 a mini as their price point, suddenly the savings from printing aren't worth the time/space/hassle of a resin printer, especially when I only have the time to paint 200 or so minis max in a typical year.

Terrain, though, that's another matter, I have an FDM printer and it can make me a whole new wargames board every month for the cost of a few rolls of PLA.

I do buy resin prints from commercial printers (on etsy) etc. sometimes, and that's fine.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/28 14:17:20


Post by: the_scotsman


 Blackie wrote:
I'd definitely play against a full 3D printed army, as long as it's reasonably WYSIWYG.

I'm not interested in purchasing any 3D printed models though as I never, ever, saw a single 3D printed miniature that was better than its GW counterpart. At least for those armies I do own or would like to own. And I can't mix them with already existing collections because the design is typically different.

About terrain I'm way more open to get third party alternatives, and in fact I did get a lot of non GW stuff. 3D printed terrain is easily on par with GW stuff if not better.


Sometimes it's less about the visual fidelity if you hold it .001" from your nose and squint to try and see the print lines and more about GW just sometimes makes dumb, silly decisions with the design and proportionality of their minis and they just don't look good. Also, some stuff gets pretty old like:

-many gw kits effectively looking like 5 clones of the same exact guy
-GW's high degree of hero scaling making some kits especially of models that are supposed to look lithe/fast look clunky and clumsy like Wreck-it Ralph with huge hands and heads
-GW's love of loads and piles of greeble on every figure
-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
If the technology for home SLA printing at the resolutions available now, you had shown a teenage me this I would've been all over it. I already had exposure to industrial 3d SLA but it required some finishing up machining and not quite ready for primetime. That was on a $400k machine in 1993. The mere fact that for less than $500 today you can get a printer that blows stuff out of the water is unbelievable.
Give it 5yrs with all in one printers(SLA, FDM, sintering) and you could basically have the beginnings of a STC(minus the abominable intelligence...)

This misses the point entirely.
How many of you had access to £400 when you were a kid/teen? Because the average purchase for my group was once a month, less if it was something big, and almost always relied on birthdays/Christmas/other big events to get anything more than one box of models. Hell even now as an adult spending that much money on a single product has to have serious justification. I spent about 4 months waiting and worrying before I nabbed a PC that was actually good because it was a lot of money. My average monthly hobby budget, in a good month, is £100.
It doesn't matter if the technology is great because when it comes down to it I'm not waiting a month before I can even begin to start printing models, let alone using them in games. A SC/Starter Box can easily be built in a week and at that point, you're good to play games.


the cost of a 3d printer at this point is pretty analogous to the cost of any given video game system. Probably cheaper tbh. Somehow, lots of teens have access to video game systems, though I dont think 3d printing is a good hobby for teens - they're bad at using PPE.

....though I guess everyone has had a lot of practice with PPE protocol now hahah.

[Thumb - 99120116009_AdMechFulguriteElectroPriests01.jpg]
[Thumb - IMG_0923.jpg]


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/28 14:34:17


Post by: Catulle


 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The poll lacks a "I don't care" option for those that are in the middle.

Although the thread has been fun for Gert's assertions that 3D printers are really tough to use. Go back 25 years and replace "3D printer" with "this newfangled Interweb thing!" or even further back and "kids and their televisions!" and it sounds just as funny.


in fairness before internet browsers where a thing the internet wasn't the easiest to use
I have this wild memory of going over to a friends house, and him explaining to me that his dads computer was connected to other computers somewhere. I remember watching him enter some commands, and over some number of minutes we got back an image or graphic of some kind. I was friends with this kid in 2nd grade, and I want to say that was in 1986.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah. Kids learn dinosaur names that their parents can't even begin to pronounce. Kids will learn what they put their minds towards.
Pachycephalasaurus.
Hail, the most Weegie of dinosaurs!


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/28 14:36:25


Post by: jaredb


I really like 3d printing for Terrain and bits, Not not at all a fan of folks blatantly copying existing GW or FW kits.

I also have not found a 3rd party clone of a GW or FW kit where I find the copy is superior to the original, but that comes from personal taste.

I do really like the 3D printed Battlemechs based off the Mechwarrior Online mechs.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 07:20:10


Post by: Blackie


 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 07:26:59


Post by: Insectum7


 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.
I recently purchased an original box of Eldar Guardians (for a pretty penny) and to my pleasant surprise, something like 8 or 9 out of 20 of the models were female.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 11:49:27


Post by: the_scotsman


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.
I recently purchased an original box of Eldar Guardians (for a pretty penny) and to my pleasant surprise, something like 8 or 9 out of 20 of the models were female.


Yep, they remembered with Guardians and Guardian jetbikes, and then forgot with the whole rest of the army that eldar are supposed to be mixed-gender. Whoops!

Harlequins and Drukhari are the only ones where they remember with any kind of consistency, though there are still tons of randomy all-male drukhari kits thrown in for fun. Guard, Scions, Genestealer Cults until they finally remembered with the neophyte bikers (problem solved!), eldar except for the two guardian kits, and custodes they just went all-male because custodes are bigly space marines.

Admech and Necrons you obviously cant tell from the models but all the characters talked about in the codex are 'he'. It's fine though, there was no potential for an interesting Necron queen character, it's way better that you've got the Silent King, who is kind of an imperious, commanding lord type character, and Imotekh the Stormlord, who is this commanding lordly imperator, and Anrakyr the Traveler, who is more of a lordly imperious commander to round out the named character roster.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 13:29:34


Post by: Sim-Life


 the_scotsman wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.
I recently purchased an original box of Eldar Guardians (for a pretty penny) and to my pleasant surprise, something like 8 or 9 out of 20 of the models were female.


Yep, they remembered with Guardians and Guardian jetbikes, and then forgot with the whole rest of the army that eldar are supposed to be mixed-gender. Whoops!

Harlequins and Drukhari are the only ones where they remember with any kind of consistency, though there are still tons of randomy all-male drukhari kits thrown in for fun. Guard, Scions, Genestealer Cults until they finally remembered with the neophyte bikers (problem solved!), eldar except for the two guardian kits, and custodes they just went all-male because custodes are bigly space marines.

Admech and Necrons you obviously cant tell from the models but all the characters talked about in the codex are 'he'. It's fine though, there was no potential for an interesting Necron queen character, it's way better that you've got the Silent King, who is kind of an imperious, commanding lord type character, and Imotekh the Stormlord, who is this commanding lordly imperator, and Anrakyr the Traveler, who is more of a lordly imperious commander to round out the named character roster.


Doesn't Forgeworld have a female necron lord?


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 13:36:44


Post by: jaredb


 Sim-Life wrote:

Doesn't Forgeworld have a female necron lord?


No model of one.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 14:20:04


Post by: jeff white


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.
I recently purchased an original box of Eldar Guardians (for a pretty penny) and to my pleasant surprise, something like 8 or 9 out of 20 of the models were female.

yeah, that was a given back in the day. makes sense too considering what and who guardians are supposed to represent, the citizen holdouts of a dying race... that helped to explain why the units were so well outfitted and so expensive relative to other races... many harlequins were also obviously female...

as for the marines and chaos marines, these were supposed to represent forces organized according to the diktats of a patriarchy. there is no mixed gender in such an ideology. and the composition of a space marine army should reflect that. the Imperium is decidedly not "woke" and to make it so, well...

now with everyone competitively concerned with "balance" and not offending social wannabe norms, there seems to be this idea that every race should be all things for all people in all situations, and the sorts of distinctions that made eldar guardian unit compositions an exception to the partiarchal Imperial rule are less easily communicated.

i have some old ork females too! cheerleaders stolen from BB as part of my old WHFB ork army, collecting dust somewhere haf a world away in some closet of some family memeber (I hope...)....


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 14:27:36


Post by: the_scotsman


 Sim-Life wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.
I recently purchased an original box of Eldar Guardians (for a pretty penny) and to my pleasant surprise, something like 8 or 9 out of 20 of the models were female.


Yep, they remembered with Guardians and Guardian jetbikes, and then forgot with the whole rest of the army that eldar are supposed to be mixed-gender. Whoops!

Harlequins and Drukhari are the only ones where they remember with any kind of consistency, though there are still tons of randomy all-male drukhari kits thrown in for fun. Guard, Scions, Genestealer Cults until they finally remembered with the neophyte bikers (problem solved!), eldar except for the two guardian kits, and custodes they just went all-male because custodes are bigly space marines.

Admech and Necrons you obviously cant tell from the models but all the characters talked about in the codex are 'he'. It's fine though, there was no potential for an interesting Necron queen character, it's way better that you've got the Silent King, who is kind of an imperious, commanding lord type character, and Imotekh the Stormlord, who is this commanding lordly imperator, and Anrakyr the Traveler, who is more of a lordly imperious commander to round out the named character roster.


Doesn't Forgeworld have a female necron lord?


Sure, and there was a limited edition 80$ female catachan guard sergeant, and in the lore from some obscure book somewhere there was a techpriest who gets referred to as 'she' i'm sure, and every video game ever has a female farseer, it's always the farseer despite that somehow just never being the model for a farseer AFAIK...doesnt really change the fact that GW has basically always released every faction as 95% identical dudes built like refrigerators unless it's 'designated female army' or some kind of elf, or 'designated sexy army/sexy unit'.

To be clear here im not accusing anyone of actively being sexist, this is clearly just a passive/laziness thing. Eh, we dont wanna design two kinds of armor, so all chaos warriors besides one or two characters are gonna be dudes. Eh, we want this unit to be shirtless so all drukhari are mixed-gender except for the haemonculus covens which are gonna be all dudes for no reason. Eh, space marines are all dudes and we are basically creating this army to sell to people who keep buying in to the Space Marines But Space Marineier, so all custodes are gonna be dudes too. Eh this army is gonna be weird aliens/weird fantasy critters so...they just all look the same, and all the characters are just dudes, preferably basically identical dudes.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 14:31:38


Post by: Rihgu


the Imperium is decidedly not "woke" and to make it so, well...

I mean, is it really some great tragedy that there is no glass ceiling in the Imperium? They're xenophobic, not racist, sexist, or misogynistic.

"Patriarchal Imperial Rule". There have been matriarchs in the entire history of the Imperium going as far back as the Great Crusade... and that didn't stop after the Horus Heresy.

More models of women! Commisars, guardswomen, genestealers, let's gooooo!


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 14:37:35


Post by: the_scotsman


 jeff white wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:

-GW's consistently forgetting that many of their armies are supposed to be mixed-gender and only making male models in 90% of their kits even if theyre eldar/drukhari/admech/guard/etc


Yeah, this is something very annoying. With orks I don't care, but I'd definitely love more women in imperium and chaos armies. Not to mention my favorite GW models, Necromunda gangs, which are basically all of the same gender except Van Saar which have a few females, one out of five models, (with almost no appropriate heads though). One or two females out of the 5 bodies of the standard Orlock kit (I'm glad the specialist kit has a couple of girls though) and maybe one female in the Goliath kit would have been awesome.
I recently purchased an original box of Eldar Guardians (for a pretty penny) and to my pleasant surprise, something like 8 or 9 out of 20 of the models were female.

yeah, that was a given back in the day. makes sense too considering what and who guardians are supposed to represent, the citizen holdouts of a dying race... that helped to explain why the units were so well outfitted and so expensive relative to other races... many harlequins were also obviously female...

as for the marines and chaos marines, these were supposed to represent forces organized according to the diktats of a patriarchy. there is no mixed gender in such an ideology. and the composition of a space marine army should reflect that. the Imperium is decidedly not "woke" and to make it so, well...

now with everyone competitively concerned with "balance" and not offending social wannabe norms, there seems to be this idea that every race should be all things for all people in all situations, and the sorts of distinctions that made eldar guardian unit compositions an exception to the partiarchal Imperial rule are less easily communicated.

i have some old ork females too! cheerleaders stolen from BB as part of my old WHFB ork army, collecting dust somewhere haf a world away in some closet of some family memeber (I hope...)....


....except that the Imperium is in no way portrayed to be a patriarchy save for the fact that the emperor and primarchs were all male. it's not really a new "woke" thing to create a fantasy/scifi universe and just wave your hand and say 'and sexism and racism and stuff that we care about today is not a thing in this universe because we have orks and goblins and demons and magic and gods and all the stuff that creates that stuff in our world doesnt really apply.' People have been doing that for decades, because it's easy, and its a way to stay out of politics.

And that is exactly how the imperium is generally portrayed outside of the space marines, which are all male for in-universe space science reasons and offset by the writers with the sisters of battle, who are all-female for similar in-universe space politics reasons.

Otherwise, the guard, the inquisiton, the high lords, the laboring classes - there's nothing in-fiction that actually establishes that anyone is anything except human-supremacist. And it makes sense that they wouldn't be, if you've got bug-eyed betentacled aliens and giant green fungus hooligans to worry about, you're going to care that some other human is a slightly different shade a whole lot less (we know that 4th gen genestealer cultists can successfully blend in no problem while being slightly purple and having star trek forehead-ridgies) and in a universe where youve got high-grav worlds turning people into literal 10ft tall ogres and zero-grav spacers growing up with twig bones the physical differences between the sexes are going to be a whole lot less critical - a woman from a Death World or high-grav world is gonna be able to snap a man from a low-grav world in half.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 14:39:18


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


jeff white wrote:yeah, that was a given back in the day. makes sense too considering what and who guardians are supposed to represent, the citizen holdouts of a dying race... that helped to explain why the units were so well outfitted and so expensive relative to other races... many harlequins were also obviously female...
Why was the same not applied to Guardsmen?

the Imperium is decidedly not "woke" and to make it so, well...
Having women isn't "being woke". That's just reality. Just want to make that clear.

the_scotsman wrote:To be clear here im not accusing anyone of actively being sexist, this is clearly just a passive/laziness thing. Eh, we dont wanna design two kinds of armor, so all chaos warriors besides one or two characters are gonna be dudes. Eh, we want this unit to be shirtless so all drukhari are mixed-gender except for the haemonculus covens which are gonna be all dudes for no reason. Eh, space marines are all dudes and we are basically creating this army to sell to people who keep buying in to the Space Marines But Space Marineier, so all custodes are gonna be dudes too. Eh this army is gonna be weird aliens/weird fantasy critters so...they just all look the same, and all the characters are just dudes, preferably basically identical dudes.
Exactly so - it's just a case of "we can't be bothered to include the other 50% of people", and now that passiveness/laziness is a little bit frowned on. Probably not a great grand conspiracy, like you say, but it doesn't make it okay.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 the_scotsman wrote:
....except that the Imperium is in no way portrayed to be a patriarchy save for the fact that the emperor and primarchs were all male. it's not really a new "woke" thing to create a fantasy/scifi universe and just wave your hand and say 'and sexism and racism and stuff that we care about today is not a thing in this universe because we have orks and goblins and demons and magic and gods and all the stuff that creates that stuff in our world doesnt really apply.' People have been doing that for decades, because it's easy, and its a way to stay out of politics.
And this as well - the Imperium isn't patriarchal, save for having a male-presenting skeleton they worship, who has absolutely no practical power in governing. Governance is either handled on a local level, with local leaders of all genders, or from the HLOT, who are also a mixed gender organisation. There isn't really a sign of overarching sexism or patriarchal dominance within the Imperium - if we take jeff's implication that including women in prominent positions is "woke", then the Imperium is "woke".


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 14:45:37


Post by: the_scotsman


its like when people complained about the one novel where techpriests all just referred to each other as "ve" instead of 'he' or 'she'.

it's not "woke" it's basic speculative fiction. The author thought for like five seconds about a society where for thousands of years, people view flesh as bad, machinery as the ideal, wear robes over any shameful fleshy bits that might be showing, and technologically transmogrify themselves as much as possible into weird spider/robot/tractor hybrids and thought to themselves "hm, you know something, in this theoretical society you probably wouldn't be able to tell by looking and it'd probably be pretty impolite to ask what's going on with the fleshy parts under all those robes. Referring to yourself as either "he" or "she" would be conveying shameful information about the state of your weak human past."


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 14:54:48


Post by: Gregor Samsa


3d printing is undoubtedly the future of the hobby. I recently had a friend print out a vast smattering of different sculpts i'd grabbed from gumroad, patreon etc and am absolutely floored by the quality of the prints. Moreover it has dramatically reduced the cost of entry, which has allowed me to gift entire armies worth of models to friends who otherwise simply do not have the budget for such an expensive hobby.

I will still personally support many of the sculptors out there who are producing minis, as I am quite fond of many metal casts such as Pendraken.

However for my social circle, the dragon chasing of 40k tournament meta WYSIWYG BS is over.

Although GW is riding high in market share currently, the bubble will inevitably burst because the dollar cost value for their products simply isn't there. They will soon be caught between a rock and hard place: on the one hand amateur sculptors are creating sculpts that rival their internal design studio and on the other: just about every other game design studio out there has a better rules set than 40k.

With all the amazing game systems out there to try from Osprey, Warlord Games etc etc....Keeping up with the 40k Joneses is no longer even remotely on our radar screen.


3d print customs vs GW originals  @ 2021/09/29 19:55:23


Post by: jeff white


Poll results 85% to 15%… yeah, I am sold.