Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 17:59:15


Post by: warboss


No, this is not an out of season April Fool's joke.

https://deadline.com/2021/09/babylon-5-series-reboot-j-michael-straczynski-development-cw-1234845022/

A new version of the Emmy-winning space opera television series Babylon 5 is in the works. The CW has put in development Babylon 5, described as a “from-the-ground-up reboot” of the critically acclaimed 1990s series, from original series creator J. Michael Straczynski and Warner Bros. Television.

Written by Straczynski, the reboot revolves around John Sheridan (played by Bruce Boxleitner in the original series), an Earthforce officer with a mysterious background, who is assigned to Babylon 5, a five-mile-long space station in neutral space, a port of call for travelers, smugglers, corporate explorers and alien diplomats at a time of uneasy peace and the constant threat of war. His arrival triggers a destiny beyond anything he could have imagined, as an exploratory Earth company accidentally triggers a conflict with a civilization a million years ahead of us, putting Sheridan and the rest of the B5 crew in the line of fire as the last, best hope for the survival of the human race.


I want to hope but I think I'm more afraid. Afraid that there will be a Season One prom episode and the feud between G'kar and Lando will be either an ex-lover's quarrel or an intergalactic love triangle with them and Delenn or possibly Vir.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 18:13:36


Post by: Sterling191


 warboss wrote:

I want to hope but I think I'm more afraid. Afraid that there will be a Season One prom episode and the feud between G'kar and Lando will be either an ex-lover's quarrel or an intergalactic love triangle with them and Delenn or possibly Vir.


In fairness, the Vir/Londo/G'Kar love triangle was absolutely a thing in the original series too.

CW is a weird place for this to land, and the criticism/confusion/wariness is certainly warranted. But given how virulently anti-B5 certain people at Warner have historically been, there's a *HELL* of a behind the scenes story as to how this got green lit.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 18:20:29


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


OK, I’m actually up for this.

Babylon 5 is of course brilliant in terms of its story telling, and indeed somewhat pioneering in the “five year story told over the same number of years” approach in an environment of One And Done episodic shows.

And since it’s day, TV has genuinely matured, to the point audiences are quite happy with in-depth “we actually need to pay attention to this” political and police procedural thrillers etc.

Plus B5’s original SFX whilst again pioneering for their time, haven’t aged well at all.

I’m…genuinely up for this, especially as it’s JSM’s baby and he’s coming back.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 18:30:11


Post by: El Torro


I can see a lot of people having a lot to say about this...

I watched all of Babylon 5 about 10 years ago, and found it to be a poor man's Deep Space 9. Probably because I had just finished watching the entirety of Deep Space 9 just before it. I know that's not a very fair comparison, the two shows are not particularly similar.

I won't be watching it to start off with, maybe if Season 1 gets good feedback I'll give it a go. As with most reboots I don't expect this show to last long either.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 18:31:35


Post by: Kanluwen


CW is a bit less weird than you might think for a spot that this landed.

Between Wellington Paranormal, The Outpost, The 4400, and some more stuff...there's a bit of more grownup things going on now.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 18:32:36


Post by: Overread


I'd second that B5s CGI hasn't aged well, heck I recall one of the first major space fights in the series almost looks like they raided the random objects for screensavers and threw them up as super alien space ships.

That said I don't know, I think in a way its hard to have a series follow something like that because the actors made the series and their characters. Trying to replace that is tricky because any originality on the part of the actors and story can appear like its not being authentic; whilst remaining steadfast authentic can stifle story telling at times and character growth.

However they could, in theory, retell the story and follow the original timeline and plot that was outlined. Don't forget the series set itself up with a whole "He's the One" angle which had to be significantly adjusted after the first season and they lost the original lead actor (captain of B5).


Having the original writer on board does give hope that they could go that pathway. It would at least give them some new angles without actually "changing" the style of the original.

The risk is it could end up like the Battlestar remake - going wildly off-base to the original story and perhaps changing the very nature of core characters.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 18:33:55


Post by: Cronch


Assuming this isn't horribly mishandled, I'm also up for it, even enthusiastic. I love the original, but hopefully this time there won't be as many Weekly Filler Episodes and well..the visuals really haven't aged well. up to date ships that have more than 10 polygons each would be delightful to see.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 18:48:15


Post by: warboss


 Kanluwen wrote:
CW is a bit less weird than you might think for a spot that this landed.

Between Wellington Paranormal, The Outpost, The 4400, and some more stuff...there's a bit of more grownup things going on now.


I will admit that I haven't kept up with the CW over the past decade so hopefully my fears are at least partly unfounded. If I see a cast of supposed teenagers in charge of the station and there is even a hint of an intergalactic prom, I reserve the right to kvetch.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 18:48:16


Post by: Mr Morden


I really enjoyed both DS9 and B5 and would enjoy seeing it come back or be redone.

I thnk the ships looked and look good - especially the more alien ones - Shadows, Minbari, Vorlons and the league races.

The risk is it could end up like the Battlestar remake - going wildly off-base to the original story and perhaps changing the very nature of core characters.


Having enjoyed BSG in its orginal form I absolutely loved the modern BSG - if they did a new B5 show to the same standard that would be fantastic.



B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 18:55:54


Post by: kodos


why it has to be always a reboot

just make a sequel or prequel as the story is changed anyway


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 18:59:28


Post by: Sterling191


Because they already did that (and most of it was garbage). Plus 2/3rds or so of the original cast are dead.

I think folks also forget how much narrative acrobatics happened behind the scenes after Michael O'Hare was unable to continue after S1. The story JMS originally wrote and what ended up getting produced were wildly different.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 19:02:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 kodos wrote:
why it has to be always a reboot

just make a sequel or prequel as the story is changed anyway


Not with Babylon 5. They tried sequels. They were awful.

The base story is kind of universal. It’s a saga of the ages but set in space. And as our world has changed over the intervening 25 or so years, it’s a story with new legs and fuel, new events and history to reflect and interpret.

The ending itself bears repeating ad infinitum. We Don’t Need You Trying To Force Us Into A Binary Option. Bugger Off And We’ll Find Our Own Way, For Better Or Worse.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 19:14:01


Post by: kodos


If you take the tried sequels as baseline than the reboot will be unwatchable

and yes, taking the original story, alter it a bit to get modern day US focused social context and here you go with a terrible reboot

this can be done with a different story in the same universe as well without changing to source material to the worse


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 19:16:40


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I’m pretty optimistic so far.

The main reason why B5’s sequels couldn’t work is because B5 tells the story of the universe-changing events for that millennium, giving us enough glimpses forward and backward in time to get a feel for how momentous those events were. You can’t then follow it up with some big universe-changing story that has the same characters and keep it true to the series. Even setting it a hundred years later would have issues, since we have a general idea of how things should go based on the events of the original series.



B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 19:21:23


Post by: Mr Morden


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 kodos wrote:
why it has to be always a reboot

just make a sequel or prequel as the story is changed anyway


Not with Babylon 5. They tried sequels. They were awful.

The base story is kind of universal. It’s a saga of the ages but set in space. And as our world has changed over the intervening 25 or so years, it’s a story with new legs and fuel, new events and history to reflect and interpret.

The ending itself bears repeating ad infinitum. We Don’t Need You Trying To Force Us Into A Binary Option. Bugger Off And We’ll Find Our Own Way, For Better Or Worse.


Agreed re the sequals!

There are alot of stories that could be told or expanded upon - and who knows different choices and paths might be taken.....


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 19:34:51


Post by: kodos


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I’m pretty optimistic so far.

The main reason why B5’s sequels couldn’t work is because B5 tells the story of the universe-changing events for that millennium, giving us enough glimpses forward and backward in time to get a feel for how momentous those events were. You can’t then follow it up with some big universe-changing story that has the same characters and keep it true to the series. Even setting it a hundred years later would have issues, since we have a general idea of how things should go based on the events of the original series.

knowing how a story ends is less of an issue if the story telling as good
setting a shown on Valen, or the civil war from the far future would give enough possibilities

not talking about a Spin-Off small series set during the time of great event covering a niche but a real sequel telling the story of great events in the future


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 19:57:22


Post by: Frazzled


I would bet good money this never happens.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 21:23:56


Post by: Jadenim


 Frazzled wrote:
I would bet good money this never happens.


Possibly, but it must be fairly far along to do any kind of announcement.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 22:13:44


Post by: Voss


Dubious. I love the orignal four seasons. But it was mostly on the strength of the actors, most of whom are dead now. The quality of writing flailed a bit, and never really broke out of genre cliches. It's main strength in that area was going for a real story rather than episodic 'nothing ever changes.'

Would rather something new, than another attempt at 'rebottling lightning' reboot.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 23:43:22


Post by: warboss


Yeah, for a contemporary of DS9, B5 really had a mummy's curse on the cast. I think of the main characters only about a quarter of the actors are still alive. Only two DS9 main cast have passed away in the same time period.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 23:45:32


Post by: Flinty


B5 being one of my very favouritest series ever, this makes me apprehensive… on the other hand, I assume that Mr Morden will be all for a second crack at taking the station down and corrupting the Centauri elite


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/27 23:55:49


Post by: warboss


 Flinty wrote:
B5 being one of my very favouritest series ever, this makes me apprehensive… on the other hand, I assume that Mr Morden will be all for a second crack at taking the station down and corrupting the Centauri elite


I don't think it likely that Morden will survive as is. That seems to me to be the obvious gender swap. Frankly I'm ok with that (unlike usually) as gender was never even a minor consideration for the character.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 00:08:36


Post by: chaos0xomega


I am stoked. Babylon 5 is the greatest of the scifi franchises but was relegated to the trash heap of third rate nerd cons by poorly aged SFX and costuming combined with WBs own internal parochial squabbling.

JMS has matured considerably as a designer and a visionary since then, so I have high hopes that he will surpass himself and push farther, though I wonder what hes got up his sleeve to make the new series as revolutionary as the original - he can't really rest on that whole "continuous saga told over several seasons" bit anymore, thats par for the course in television these days, and he'd be hard-pressed to go any more woke or progressive than he did with the original series.

But really all what I want is for the ships to look cool and for a bitchin' B5 fleet scale tabletop minis game to come out of this.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 00:37:01


Post by: Kanluwen


Straczynski's Twitter feed wrote:To answer all the questions, yes, it’s true, Babylon 5 is in active development as a series for the CW. We have some serious fans over at the network, and they’re eager to see this show happen. I’m hip deep into writing the pilot now, and will be running the series upon pickup.

The network understands the uniqueness of Babylon 5 and is giving me a great deal of latitude with the storytelling.As noted in the announcement, this is a reboot from the ground up rather than a continuation, for several reasons. Heraclitus wrote -- “You cannot step in the same river twice, for the river has changed, and you have changed.” In the years since B5, I’ve done a ton of other TV shows and movies, adding an equal number of tools to my toolbox, all of which I can bring to bear on one singular question:

if I were creating Babylon 5 today, for the first time, knowing what I now know as a writer, what would it look like? How would it use all the storytelling tools and technological resources available in 2021 that were not on hand then? How can it be used to reflect the world in which we live, and the questions we are asking and confronting every day? Fans regularly point out how prescient the show was and is of our current world; it would be fun to take a shot at looking further down the road. So we will not be retelling the same story in the same way because of what Heraclitus said about the river. There would be no fun and no surprises. Better to go the way of Westworld or Battlestar Galactica where you take the original elements that are evergreens and put them in a blender with a ton of new, challenging ideas, to create something fresh yet familiar. To those asking why not just do a continuation, for a network series like this, it can’t be done because over half our cast are still stubbornly on the other side of the Rim.

How do you telling continuing story of our original Londo without the original Vir? Or G’Kar? How do you tell Sheridan’s story without Delenn? Or the story of B5 without Franklin? Garibaldi? Zack? The original Babylon 5 was ridiculously innovative: the first to use CGI to create ships and characters, and among the very first to shoot widescreen with a vigorous 5.1 mix. Most of all, for the first time, Babylon 5 introduced viewers accustomed to episodic television to the concept of a five-year arc with a pre-planned beginning, middle and end…creating a brand new paradigm for television storytelling that has subsequently become the norm. That tradition for innovation will continue in this new iteration, and I hope to create additional new forms of storytelling that will further push the television medium to the edge of what’s possible.

Let me conclude by just saying how supportive and enthusiastic everyone at the CW has been and is being with this project. They understand the unique position Babylon 5 occupies both in television and with its legions of fans, and are doing everything they can to ensure the maximum in creative freedom, a new story that will bring in new viewers while honoring all that has come before.

Onward!


Some words from JMS...


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 00:48:05


Post by: gorgon


 Overread wrote:
The risk is it could end up like the Battlestar remake - going wildly off-base to the original story and perhaps changing the very nature of core characters.


Maybe not the best example since original BSG was strong on concept but very, very weak on execution. I remember seeing it again for the first time on the SciFi channel maybe 10 years later and I couldn't believe how poorly it held up. nu-BSG is such a better show on every level -- stories, performances, characters, dialogue, etc.

I think JMS sounds spot-on for what this new B5 needs to be. Different and not more of the same ol' to serve fans.




B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 00:48:27


Post by: chaos0xomega


I love every word of that post. Im sure some people are going to kneejerk at the mention of BSG though, lol

EDIT - Damn, beaten to the punch.

Personally, loved the BSG reboot, much better than the original IMO


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 00:51:56


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Never saw much B5. I do remember the show had good music.

And this will never not be cool:



B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 01:22:06


Post by: cuda1179


The Omega Destroyer is so iconic for this franchise. They better not screw with the design too much for the reboot.

Not to make another BSG reboot parallel, but I hope the reimaging of the ships is like they did for that show. A little less cheesy sci-fi and more gritty realistic sci-fi while paying an homage to the original designs.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 02:49:27


Post by: Vulcan


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Never saw much B5. I do remember the show had good music.

And this will never not be cool:



Every time I see that, I wonder how a ship with such a huge centrifuge deck can make a u-turn that fast without overstressing the frame.

Of course, if it could physically be done, that speech would inspire me to do it...


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 05:52:08


Post by: kodos


I add this as my favourite quote





regarding the BSG reboot, at least from what I have seen/heard/talked the opinion differs a lot in US and EU and and while being liked on the first run it failed to become a classic here (with the original being considered to have aged much better than the reboot)

with the main problem of the original that they were forced tov switch from TV-movies to 1 episode per week on the fly with less money (and in Europe the show kept the movie style on first release and re-runs with episodes re-cut into 3 feature films)
were the main problem of the reboot is that they had no real plan for the ongoing plot or a detailed pre-planned start/middle/end for a 5 season show (that the last season was not available in German speaking countries for a long time as the channel broadcasting it could not afford to buy it while had a contract that it is not released on home media before they have showed it, did not really helped either)


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 07:07:15


Post by: AduroT


I will choose to be cautiously optimistic for the B5 reboot.

The BSG one I rather enjoyed till right up near the end. Did not care for the divine angle they chose.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 07:30:07


Post by: Dysartes


Don't mess with the Starfury designs, and keep the "realistic" style for space combat, please...

Always liked the "I'm going to roll so I can fire backwards while using my momentum to travel forwards" moments during the dogfighting.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 07:58:34


Post by: Shadow Walker


Together with ST:TNG, B5 is my all time favourite s-f show, so I hope this remake will be at least as good if not better.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 08:01:01


Post by: tneva82


 kodos wrote:
why it has to be always a reboot

just make a sequel or prequel as the story is changed anyway


Not much prequels to do. The war 1000 years ago? Trouble is having connection with viewers with zero humans.

Sequels? Hard to do without going either so far ahead time no original characters left at which point connection to B5 is...weak or have serious issues as like over half the cast is...well dead.

And don't look right age anyway. So you end up having to recast original characters ANYWAY.

Only sequel that would really make sense is do the crusade again as that never got done properly. That might make sense. But probably be inferior in terms of finance. And if reboot of B5 works reboot of crusade could be on cards and we finally would find out what the crusade was supposed to be about properly.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 08:06:18


Post by: Flinty


 warboss wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
B5 being one of my very favouritest series ever, this makes me apprehensive… on the other hand, I assume that Mr Morden will be all for a second crack at taking the station down and corrupting the Centauri elite


I don't think it likely that Morden will survive as is. That seems to me to be the obvious gender swap. Frankly I'm ok with that (unlike usually) as gender was never even a minor consideration for the character.


Hear that @Mr Morden… your time has come


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 09:11:34


Post by: Turnip Jedi


I think this will stand or fall on casting as the original cast was awesome sauce of the highest order (and whoever gets the G'Kar role will have hella big boots to fill)


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 10:18:40


Post by: MarkNorfolk


I loved B5. How they tell the story and cast the actors is going to be tough though. G'kar, Londo, Vir, Ivanova, Garibaldi.. many of the original cast made the characters their own. Plus, of course, the mystery of the Shadows, the role of the Vorlons, the coup on Earth... a whole lot of 'wow... What happens next?' is going to be gone.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 13:05:15


Post by: chaos0xomega


Well, based on JMS tweet your concerns are unfounded. Its not going to be a straight remake of the original series. The Shadow/Vorlon conflict, Earthgov coup, and other twists and turns of the original series may be present, or not present at all, or completely reimagined and recontextualized in ways that you don't expect - not unlike the BSG reboot. I think you can also expect that although many of the characters will have familiar names, their backgrounds, personalities, and roles in the story might be entirely different.

The new actors playing G'Kar and Londo won't ever live up to Andreas Katsulas or Peter Jurasik, but thats okay because even though their characters share the same names they aren't really the same characters in the same story.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 13:29:13


Post by: Sterling191


Perhaps the bigger story buried in JMS chatting yesterday was the fact that the roadblock that kept B5 from being developed at all (IE: whatever blood feud with particular exec(s) ) has been resolved (albeit with an unsatisfying and likely NDA'd answer).

That's huuuuuuuge.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 13:43:53


Post by: grahamdbailey


 kodos wrote:
I add this as my favourite quote





regarding the BSG reboot, at least from what I have seen/heard/talked the opinion differs a lot in US and EU and and while being liked on the first run it failed to become a classic here (with the original being considered to have aged much better than the reboot)

with the main problem of the original that they were forced tov switch from TV-movies to 1 episode per week on the fly with less money (and in Europe the show kept the movie style on first release and re-runs with episodes re-cut into 3 feature films)
were the main problem of the reboot is that they had no real plan for the ongoing plot or a detailed pre-planned start/middle/end for a 5 season show (that the last season was not available in German speaking countries for a long time as the channel broadcasting it could not afford to buy it while had a contract that it is not released on home media before they have showed it, did not really helped either)


I *tried* to like the BSG reboot, but moving to an 'enemy within' angle rather than 'enemy without', the silly religion thing and the soap-opera plots made it unwatchable.
Having said this, I'm cautiously optimistic for a rebooted B5.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 13:48:46


Post by: MarkNorfolk


Well, as long as someone says "Get the Hell out our Galaxy!".....and "Moon-faced assassin of Joy"......


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 14:14:42


Post by: chaos0xomega


Sterling191 wrote:
Perhaps the bigger story buried in JMS chatting yesterday was the fact that the roadblock that kept B5 from being developed at all (IE: whatever blood feud with particular exec(s) ) has been resolved (albeit with an unsatisfying and likely NDA'd answer).

That's huuuuuuuge.


But we already knew that. The roadblock was a person or a group of people, JMS has always been pretty clear on that point though he wouldn't name specific names, other than to say they were old-time WB company execs who hated anything and everything to do with the PTEN network (B5 included). Earlier this year AT&T announced it was spinning off WB and associated stuff into Warnermedia, and then merge it with Discovery Inc. As part of that a number of senior people at WB, etc. were basically put out of work and replaced with new blood. Presumably this shakeup involved the removal of some/all the individuals/groups involved with roadblocking B5 all these years which paved the way for JMS. I posted something to this effect as a prediction of how things might go in response to something JMS posted on twitter a few months back and he heart reacted it - I didn't read too much into it at the time, but now I wonder if he was already in talks about this at that point and was heart reacting because I had read the situation correctly.

I *tried* to like the BSG reboot, but moving to an 'enemy within' angle rather than 'enemy without', the silly religion thing and the soap-opera plots made it unwatchable.
Having said this, I'm cautiously optimistic for a rebooted B5.


Good thing theres no basis for an "enemy within" angle or religious stuff in Babylon 5. No sir, none whatsoever, nope, no enemies within or religious elements with critical importance to the plot to be found here.

But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 14:19:47


Post by: gorgon


 AduroT wrote:
I will choose to be cautiously optimistic for the B5 reboot.

The BSG one I rather enjoyed till right up near the end. Did not care for the divine angle they chose.


I wasn't crazy about the conclusion for a few reasons. But some of that got paved over for me when I realized that the 'angels' were really the Seraphs from the original series reimagined. There are even clues about that, including the lightship being in one of Starbuck's paintings. Anyway, it reminded me that divine intervention was very much part of the original series also, along with a lot of other religious (especially Mormon) themes and allegory. nu-BSG was probably the kind of series that Glen Larson (who is a Latter-Day Saint) would have liked to have made in the '70s but couldn't for a whole host of reasons.



Regarding "5 seasons plans" and such...fans overrate that. It's pretty clear that JMS had to adjust course at times. Every line and shot wasn't part of some master plan, LOL. It was still episodic TV; he just laid crumbs here and there that pointed toward his overall goal.

It's cool that he had the outline and such, but there's also nothing wrong with letting the writing take you where it takes you. Bob Ross would endorse this creative approach, and who can go against the word of Ross?





B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 14:49:11


Post by: Overread


Londo straight up mentions the prophecy about him becoming Emperor in the very first episode.

I think that certainly whilst every single detail wasn't pre-planned; the major story arcs and several very key moments were set in stone long in advance. This allowed the writer and cast to work around certain concepts and to put all those little references in earlier that would add up to major events later. They can build small shifts in attitude and development and situation on key characters so that they are manoeuvred into a position so that when the major event happens it might be a surprise, but it feels natural. Not something thought up on the spur of the moment to provide a sudden massive plot event in the last 2 episodes of the season kind of deal. Which is honestly what you might see with a much more episodic series; where mid-season changes might happen only at the mid point in a very long season; or might only happen due to out-of-story politics - eg an actor leaves the production.

Which did happen to B5 and they had to re-write several key parts to account for the fact that "the one" they'd setup left after season 1


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 14:56:33


Post by: Mr Morden


 Flinty wrote:
 warboss wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
B5 being one of my very favouritest series ever, this makes me apprehensive… on the other hand, I assume that Mr Morden will be all for a second crack at taking the station down and corrupting the Centauri elite


I don't think it likely that Morden will survive as is. That seems to me to be the obvious gender swap. Frankly I'm ok with that (unlike usually) as gender was never even a minor consideration for the character.


Hear that @Mr Morden… your time has come




Despite my love for the Centauri - they were already corrupt :0 but they did have....style....

My alt universe pack I wrote for ACTA: B5 had his daughter as a main character given that he served the Shadows to get his family back.

I hope that they keep that the Vorlons are as bad or worse than the Shadows


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 14:56:47


Post by: tneva82


chaos0xomega wrote:

Good thing theres no basis for an "enemy within" angle or religious stuff in Babylon 5. No sir, none whatsoever, nope, no enemies within or religious elements with critical importance to the plot to be found here.

But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.


Just the whole big plot of crusade


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
Londo straight up mentions the prophecy about him becoming Emperor in the very first episode.

I think that certainly whilst every single detail wasn't pre-planned; the major story archs and several very key moments were set in stone long in advance. This allowed the writer and cast to work around certain concepts and to put all those little references in earlier that would add up to major events later. They can build small shifts in attitude and development and situation on key characters so that they are manoeuvred into a position so that when the major event happens it might be a surprise, but it feels natural. Not something thought up on the spur of the moment to provide a sudden massive plot event in the last 2 episodes of the season kind of deal. Which is honestly what you might see with a much more episodic series; where mid-season changes might happen only at the mid point in a very long season; or might only happen due to out-of-story politics - eg an actor leaves the production.

Which did happen to B5 and they had to re-write several key parts to account for the fact that "the one" they'd setup left after season 1


He had for example every season and arc points of episodes written in advance in small notes.

Which caused "some" issues when hotel staff literally lost those that concerned season 5 just as he was about to start write s5...

Cue frantically trying to rebuild his plan for s5 from years old memories.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 15:06:12


Post by: Ghaz


 gorgon wrote:
Regarding "5 seasons plans" and such...fans overrate that. It's pretty clear that JMS had to adjust course at times.

From Wikipedia

During production of the fourth season, the Prime Time Entertainment Network, which Warner Bros. opted to use for Babylon 5, was shut down, leaving the planned fifth season in doubt. Unwilling to short-change fans of the show, Straczynski began preparing modifications to the fourth season that would allow him to conclude his overall arc should a fifth season not be greenlit, which ultimately became the direction the fourth season took. Straczynski identified three primary narrative threads which would require resolution: the Shadow war, Earth's slide into a dictatorship, and a series of sub-threads which branched off from those. Estimating they would still take around 27 episodes to resolve without having the season feel rushed, the solution came when the TNT network commissioned two Babylon 5 television films. Several hours of material was thus able to be moved into the films, including a three-episode arc which would deal with the background to the Earth–Minbari War, and a sub-thread which would have set up the sequel series, Crusade. Further standalone episodes and plot-threads were dropped from season four, which could be inserted into Crusade, or the fifth season, were it to be given the greenlight. The intended series finale, "Sleeping in Light", was filmed during season four as a precaution against cancellation. When word came that TNT had picked up Babylon 5, this was moved to the end of season five and replaced with a newly filmed season four finale, "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars".


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 15:10:10


Post by: chaos0xomega


tneva82 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

Good thing theres no basis for an "enemy within" angle or religious stuff in Babylon 5. No sir, none whatsoever, nope, no enemies within or religious elements with critical importance to the plot to be found here.
But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.

Just the whole big plot of crusade


Sure, but in terms of enemies within also Mr. Morden, Vorlon/Shadow agents, Psi Corps, that whole Earthgov civil war thing, etc. And then in terms of religion, its hard to even pick where to start, what with the Shadows and Vorlons having seeded religion into the younger races, the whole Valen angle with the Minbari, the various other weird religious elements of the series,etc.

In truth, B5 2.0 can lift a *lot* from the BSG reboot and it would all make sense and be true to the context of the original series. Replace Cylon skinjobs with Shadow/Vorlon biotech clones or more widespread infilitration by Psi Corps sleeper agents. You wouldn't need to do much with the religious aspects as christianity and other real world faiths are part of the established setting (and presumably will be part of the reboot) but you can put them into conflict with the other religious systems of the various alien empires, or go a lot further with the whole "Vorlons posed as angelic beings" thing to just have all of Christianity be a product of alien interference or whatever.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 15:42:31


Post by: gorgon


Bingo.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 16:39:39


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


The main weakness of nBSG, and what ultimately made it fall apart after the New Caprica storyline, was that the writers didn’t actually know where they were going. That shouldn’t be an issue for a nB5. The whole point of writing the 5 year plan is for the writer(s) to know where the show is going, to make the story work.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 16:49:30


Post by: Jadenim


Writers strikes and network wavering also had a hand in the somewhat shaky end to BSG (I believe the writers said they needed two seasons, 4&5 to wrap up the storyline, but SciFi would only commit to one. That ended up being half a season due to the strike, so they then got a full season 5, but the pacing got wonky because of all of the rejigging)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m a massive B5 fan, so if JMS can pull this off I will be very, very happy. Although no-one can replace Claudia Christian as Ivanova in my heart…


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 16:59:54


Post by: gorgon


Are we really talking about other shows with shaky endings in a Babylon 5 thread? There some reasons for that. But boy oh boy season 5 of B5 was doggak. I'll take BSG's final season over that anticlimatic snoozefest any day.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 17:04:38


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I sure wouldn’t. By the last season of nBSG, every character was as unlikeable as Byron.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 17:12:23


Post by: chaos0xomega


I agree with Gorgon, mostly. I wouldn't say it was doggak, but its quality did suffer because despite all the emphasis this fanbase puts on the "five year plan", it didn't survive contact with "the enemy" and suffered many of the same issues that other beloved multiseason tv series do.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 17:40:10


Post by: Mr Morden


chaos0xomega wrote:
I agree with Gorgon, mostly. I wouldn't say it was doggak, but its quality did suffer because despite all the emphasis this fanbase puts on the "five year plan", it didn't survive contact with "the enemy" and suffered many of the same issues that other beloved multiseason tv series do.


I really lost interest after the end of the Shadow War and Earth Civil War - there were a few good episodes but crap like a View from the Gallery - ughh..


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 18:27:06


Post by: gorgon


Okay, I may have been dramatic with 'doggak'. But that last season felt aimless and like they were running out the clock. Maybe the concept was a Scouring of the Shire wind-down back to peacetime and something more like the early episodes, but the Scouring had more purpose and meaning. And wasn't 20% of the entire LotR saga.

Oh and "the hotel maid ate my notes"...uh, sure. As that Wikipedia snippet stated, it seemed more like things didn't go to plan and they were forced to rejigger everything in an ultimately unsatisfying way.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 19:37:05


Post by: AduroT


 gorgon wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
I will choose to be cautiously optimistic for the B5 reboot.

The BSG one I rather enjoyed till right up near the end. Did not care for the divine angle they chose.


I wasn't crazy about the conclusion for a few reasons. But some of that got paved over for me when I realized that the 'angels' were really the Seraphs from the original series reimagined. There are even clues about that, including the lightship being in one of Starbuck's paintings. Anyway, it reminded me that divine intervention was very much part of the original series also, along with a lot of other religious (especially Mormon) themes and allegory. nu-BSG was probably the kind of series that Glen Larson (who is a Latter-Day Saint) would have liked to have made in the '70s but couldn't for a whole host of reasons.



Regarding "5 seasons plans" and such...fans overrate that. It's pretty clear that JMS had to adjust course at times. Every line and shot wasn't part of some master plan, LOL. It was still episodic TV; he just laid crumbs here and there that pointed toward his overall goal.

It's cool that he had the outline and such, but there's also nothing wrong with letting the writing take you where it takes you. Bob Ross would endorse this creative approach, and who can go against the word of Ross?





Yeah, I know they did some divine stuff in the original as well. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a single full episode of it, but I distinctly remember catching the end of one where they met Satan and only survived because of an intervention.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 19:48:39


Post by: warboss


Already mentioned above. Nevermind!


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 20:46:37


Post by: gorgon


 AduroT wrote:
Yeah, I know they did some divine stuff in the original as well. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a single full episode of it, but I distinctly remember catching the end of one where they met Satan and only survived because of an intervention.


Count Iblis!



More religious stuff started creeping in toward the end. An interesting development with Iblis was that he spoke with the same voice as the Cylon Imperious Leader. It was the same actor...BUT it's also noted within the show by Baltar. Which raises some questions about the Cylons and their origins.

They also revealed that Adama had limited powers of telekinesis in the same story arc. This kinda sets up the Seraphs' explanation that they were once like the Colonials and someday that Colonials may be like them. IIRC, this echoes the Mormon belief that humans can become exalted and like gods themselves.

But even before things got so explicitly religious, there were lots of little artifacts. Kobol = Kolob, 12 tribes, etc.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/28 21:34:12


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Also, BSG was a sci-fi interpretation of Mormonism. Kind of the Mormon version of the Narnia chronicles.

I’m going to leave this comment here, as a factual statement so we might avoid irritating the mods. I urge you to do the same.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 00:20:27


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I thought nBSG was great. I even liked the ending.

I have to say I always thought that B5 was planned as a 4 season show, and then they got renewed for a 5th season and had to scramble to come up with something, hence why the major plots were dealt with prior to Season 5. Guess that wasn't the case.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 00:43:20


Post by: warboss


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I thought nBSG was great. I even liked the ending.

I have to say I always thought that B5 was planned as a 4 season show, and then they got renewed for a 5th season and had to scramble to come up with something, hence why the major plots were dealt with prior to Season 5. Guess that wasn't the case.


Yup. For most of the original run, they had episode synopsis posted for season(s) to come. Nothing too detailed (just a few lines) but they were there for everyone to read. I remember looking at them to see what was coming. Imagine reading about the next season of the Mandalorian right now on Favreau's blog!


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 05:44:26


Post by: Vulcan


chaos0xomega wrote:
But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.


I might have liked it, had it not been for the expectations they brought upon themselves by linking to the original series.

When you connect to a previous franchise, THAT BRINGS EXPECTATIONS. If you're not going to live up to the expectations, make up your own names and do something unique instead of wrecking something old.

Starbuck was a smooth-talking con-man, not an insubordinate jerk. Boomer was not a boomer. If you want more female representation, whatever happened to Sheeba and Cassiopia and Athena?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

Good thing theres no basis for an "enemy within" angle or religious stuff in Babylon 5. No sir, none whatsoever, nope, no enemies within or religious elements with critical importance to the plot to be found here.
But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.

Just the whole big plot of crusade


Sure, but in terms of enemies within also Mr. Morden, Vorlon/Shadow agents, Psi Corps, that whole Earthgov civil war thing, etc. And then in terms of religion, its hard to even pick where to start, what with the Shadows and Vorlons having seeded religion into the younger races, the whole Valen angle with the Minbari, the various other weird religious elements of the series,etc.

In truth, B5 2.0 can lift a *lot* from the BSG reboot and it would all make sense and be true to the context of the original series. Replace Cylon skinjobs with Shadow/Vorlon biotech clones or more widespread infilitration by Psi Corps sleeper agents. You wouldn't need to do much with the religious aspects as christianity and other real world faiths are part of the established setting (and presumably will be part of the reboot) but you can put them into conflict with the other religious systems of the various alien empires, or go a lot further with the whole "Vorlons posed as angelic beings" thing to just have all of Christianity be a product of alien interference or whatever.


Oh, gods, no, do not look to BSG rebooted for inspiration. B5 fans do not want the main characters to be such awful people that by the third season we're rooting for the Shadows to win just to wipe the lot of them out...


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 06:30:20


Post by: AduroT


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I thought nBSG was great. I even liked the ending.

I have to say I always thought that B5 was planned as a 4 season show, and then they got renewed for a 5th season and had to scramble to come up with something, hence why the major plots were dealt with prior to Season 5. Guess that wasn't the case.


As I recall, it was planned as a five season story. They got word the forth season would be their last so rushed the end of it a bit, but then got renewed anyways and now had to fill the space.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 06:46:36


Post by: tneva82


chaos0xomega wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

Good thing theres no basis for an "enemy within" angle or religious stuff in Babylon 5. No sir, none whatsoever, nope, no enemies within or religious elements with critical importance to the plot to be found here.
But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.

Just the whole big plot of crusade


Sure, but in terms of enemies within also Mr. Morden, Vorlon/Shadow agents, Psi Corps, that whole Earthgov civil war thing, etc. And then in terms of religion, its hard to even pick where to start, what with the Shadows and Vorlons having seeded religion into the younger races, the whole Valen angle with the Minbari, the various other weird religious elements of the series,etc.

In truth, B5 2.0 can lift a *lot* from the BSG reboot and it would all make sense and be true to the context of the original series. Replace Cylon skinjobs with Shadow/Vorlon biotech clones or more widespread infilitration by Psi Corps sleeper agents. You wouldn't need to do much with the religious aspects as christianity and other real world faiths are part of the established setting (and presumably will be part of the reboot) but you can put them into conflict with the other religious systems of the various alien empires, or go a lot further with the whole "Vorlons posed as angelic beings" thing to just have all of Christianity be a product of alien interference or whatever.


Sorry worded it badly. Didn't mean it was only thing. Meant that that whole overall plot of crusade was going to be about enemy within angle. The plague was just something to get characters together and in the excalibur ship. Sort of like how Sinclair and battle of the line memory block put things in motion for B5.

The plague would have been sorted out early season 2. Done. No more plague. Then get to the Real Meat of the story for which hints were being planted in the first half of the S1 already and the unfilmed scripts(worth reading if you haven't already!) gives even more view of where things were moving.

I'm sooooooo pissed off crusade got cancelled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
Okay, I may have been dramatic with 'doggak'. But that last season felt aimless and like they were running out the clock. Maybe the concept was a Scouring of the Shire wind-down back to peacetime and something more like the early episodes, but the Scouring had more purpose and meaning. And wasn't 20% of the entire LotR saga.

Oh and "the hotel maid ate my notes"...uh, sure. As that Wikipedia snippet stated, it seemed more like things didn't go to plan and they were forced to rejigger everything in an ultimately unsatisfying way.


Well...what you are supposed when your plans were deleted?

Okay here's thing: Write plan loose plan of 22 episodes now.

Put them away. Don't read them. Don't even particularly think about it. Hell for safety throw them to garbage bin.

In about 5 years try to redo it in a hurry without referring them. While doing job of producer while setting up production getting going on again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AduroT wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I thought nBSG was great. I even liked the ending.

I have to say I always thought that B5 was planned as a 4 season show, and then they got renewed for a 5th season and had to scramble to come up with something, hence why the major plots were dealt with prior to Season 5. Guess that wasn't the case.


As I recall, it was planned as a five season story. They got word the forth season would be their last so rushed the end of it a bit, but then got renewed anyways and now had to fill the space.


Thhough the reshuffling wasn't THAT big. Originally S4 was supposed to end on the interrogation episode(imagine that as a season cliffhanger). So about 3 episode's worth needed to be created up. Problem was doing that while setting up production doing in a hurry(it was bit of a last minute renewal which resulted in Claudia leaving the show) trying to work it out from years old of memories.

JMS has given pretty detailed explanation of what happened, what were his plans and how he reworked the end of S4 and start of S5 to work things out.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 09:35:16


Post by: Overread


 Vulcan wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.


I might have liked it, had it not been for the expectations they brought upon themselves by linking to the original series.

When you connect to a previous franchise, THAT BRINGS EXPECTATIONS. If you're not going to live up to the expectations, make up your own names and do something unique instead of wrecking something old.

Starbuck was a smooth-talking con-man, not an insubordinate jerk. Boomer was not a boomer. If you want more female representation, whatever happened to Sheeba and Cassiopia and Athena?


100% this was my feeling too.
They changed so much of the original characters that the new BS wasn't really the same story any more. Sure the ship looked the same and the character names were the same and the whole "running from the cylons" was there, but after that it basically was totally different. It also felt like at the same time they were trying to put more women into the story (in a very ham-fisted way) they were also trying to just have more overt sex, which I dunno just felt wrong in Battlestar. Or at least the way they presented and showed it felt wrong.


I totally get that they were going for a more matured story and I loved them introducing a lot more politics into the story (esp since I recall that in the original the political elements were mostly phased out after the first few episodes and things within the fleet mostly settled down). But they changed so much. I'd honestly have likely enjoyed it more if it was totally fresh as a theme and if they'd just done the whole similar story pitch as Battlestar.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 10:15:50


Post by: Slipspace


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I thought nBSG was great. I even liked the ending.

I have to say I always thought that B5 was planned as a 4 season show, and then they got renewed for a 5th season and had to scramble to come up with something, hence why the major plots were dealt with prior to Season 5. Guess that wasn't the case.


It was always supposed to be 5 seasons. JMS talks in a few places about following the traditional novel structure of Exposition, Rising Action, Climax, Falling Action, Resolution, with each of those being a season. Obviously the practicalities of making a network TV show ended up messing with that a bit for seasons 4 and 5.

I'm also not really sure it works from a TV structure POV. Having your climax in the middle seems like a bad idea and I think that proved to be somewhat true when the Shadow War ended as early as it did, leaving the show in a weird place. It may well have recovered from that if the final two seasons had been allowed to happen in the way JMS planned, but I'm not 100% convinced.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 10:18:31


Post by: Mr Morden


 Overread wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
But also, the BSG reboot was A+ and all the better for the enemy within and the silly religion thing.


I might have liked it, had it not been for the expectations they brought upon themselves by linking to the original series.

When you connect to a previous franchise, THAT BRINGS EXPECTATIONS. If you're not going to live up to the expectations, make up your own names and do something unique instead of wrecking something old.

Starbuck was a smooth-talking con-man, not an insubordinate jerk. Boomer was not a boomer. If you want more female representation, whatever happened to Sheeba and Cassiopia and Athena?


100% this was my feeling too.
They changed so much of the original characters that the new BS wasn't really the same story any more. Sure the ship looked the same and the character names were the same and the whole "running from the cylons" was there, but after that it basically was totally different. It also felt like at the same time they were trying to put more women into the story (in a very ham-fisted way) they were also trying to just have more overt sex, which I dunno just felt wrong in Battlestar. Or at least the way they presented and showed it felt wrong.


I totally get that they were going for a more matured story and I loved them introducing a lot more politics into the story (esp since I recall that in the original the political elements were mostly phased out after the first few episodes and things within the fleet mostly settled down). But they changed so much. I'd honestly have likely enjoyed it more if it was totally fresh as a theme and if they'd just done the whole similar story pitch as Battlestar.


I really enjoyed all the new versions of the characters - They are supposed to be redoing it again - might be a closer remake of the original - although to me why bother just remaking the original.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 13:08:00


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Vulcan wrote:

Oh, gods, no, do not look to BSG rebooted for inspiration. B5 fans do not want the main characters to be such awful people that by the third season we're rooting for the Shadows to win just to wipe the lot of them out...


If your take away from nBSG is that the characters are all awful people then you took away the wrong message. The point was that they were all flawed people (well, except for Gaius, he was an awful person though he had a solid redemption arc) - i.e. they were all normal, regular people with their own challenges, issues, and demons traveling down the road to hell, paving it with good intentions as they went along. It was a refreshing change of pace from the more typical dramatic presentation of characters as all being somewhat rigid 2-dimensional paladins of truth, justice, and the American way or whatever.

100% this was my feeling too.

They changed so much of the original characters that the new BS wasn't really the same story any more. Sure the ship looked the same and the character names were the same and the whole "running from the cylons" was there, but after that it basically was totally different. It also felt like at the same time they were trying to put more women into the story (in a very ham-fisted way) they were also trying to just have more overt sex, which I dunno just felt wrong in Battlestar. Or at least the way they presented and showed it felt wrong.


Ok, but if they left everything basically the same then it would just be watching the same exact gak that you watched previously, just with better sfx and more room to make direct comparisons to the original - which would be miserable (imagine the discourse if they did this for B5: "Peter Jurasik was so much better as Londo than Idris Elba is, the way Idris said 'Mr. Garibaldi' in scene 4 of episode 21 is just wrong without the odd inflection and characteristic growl used by Jurasik in the same scene 20 years ago." - no thanks).

I'd honestly have likely enjoyed it more if it was totally fresh as a theme and if they'd just done the whole similar story pitch as Battlestar.


Then you would just be complaining that they ripped off and plagiarized BSG and that they should have just remade BSG instead. And sure - even if you personally wouldn't have said that, someone else would have. This is how it works, you can't please everyone. In general the approach taken by nBSG and now with this B5 reboot is the best approach to take IMO (and evidently the film/tv industry generally agrees).

It was always supposed to be 5 seasons. JMS talks in a few places about following the traditional novel structure of Exposition, Rising Action, Climax, Falling Action, Resolution, with each of those being a season. Obviously the practicalities of making a network TV show ended up messing with that a bit for seasons 4 and 5.
I'm also not really sure it works from a TV structure POV. Having your climax in the middle seems like a bad idea and I think that proved to be somewhat true when the Shadow War ended as early as it did, leaving the show in a weird place. It may well have recovered from that if the final two seasons had been allowed to happen in the way JMS planned, but I'm not 100% convinced.


Agreed. Books, film, television, and video games are all distinct mediums and the method and manner of storytelling for each one needs to differ as a result. Spending the last 20 out of 100 episodes on "resolution" would be absolutely miserable if all the action peaked during episodes 41-60 and largely settled from 61-80.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 13:12:47


Post by: beast_gts


Claudia Christian wrote:I know some of you saw the announcement that WB is doing a B5 reboot series and I know you have lots of questions for me like “Are you playing Ivanova?” “Are there going to be telepaths?” “What year is it taking place in?”
Well folks, I know nothing…..zip…nada. Joe has kept us in the loop from day one on this, because he wants us involved with the show, but we have no idea at this time what's in the script or what the story is. Only Joe knows that for now, so you should go bug him about it. He won't tell you, but the results should be amusing.


Patricia Tallman wrote:Since the news broke that there is a #Babylon5 reboot in the works, I have been bombarded with questions. I will be on a podcast tonight, The 7Th Rule, talking a bit about it. Be sure to follow @Straczynski on twitter. His quote- "To answer all the questions, yes, it’s true, Babylon 5 is in active development as a series for the CW. We have some serious fans over at the network, and they’re eager to see this show happen. I’m hip deep into writing the pilot now, and will be running the series upon pickup." I know we all have questions! More will be revealed!


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 13:23:07


Post by: Flinty


By god, Claudia Christian even writes in Ivanova's idiom


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 13:29:20


Post by: gorgon


 Vulcan wrote:
I might have liked it, had it not been for the expectations they brought upon themselves by linking to the original series.

When you connect to a previous franchise, THAT BRINGS EXPECTATIONS. If you're not going to live up to the expectations, make up your own names and do something unique instead of wrecking something old.

Starbuck was a smooth-talking con-man, not an insubordinate jerk. Boomer was not a boomer. If you want more female representation, whatever happened to Sheeba and Cassiopia and Athena?


I mean...you're talking about a reboot of a one-season series that was 25 years old even at the time. It was very much out of the public consciousness, so it's really hard to act as if it was some kind of iconic work that Moore and company trampled on. Sure, at first it's a little jarring to old BSG fans to see Starbuck played by a woman. But Kara Thrace was a far better character than the cardboard cutout original Starbuck. I settled in pretty quickly with their changes after I realized that the writing, characters and performances were all far better than the original series.

Regarding the original female characters, all but one of them spent their time 'back at the ranch' while the men did 'the real work'. Militaries had changed since 1979, so it was appropriate for the show to change with them and show more women in front-line combat roles. But you also need to be economical with your characters. You can only feature so many of them. Would you have felt less bothered by fighter pilots named Cassiopeia and Sheeba being first-tier characters while male characters named Boomer and Starbuck became second- or third-tier? If so, why?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
I really enjoyed all the new versions of the characters - They are supposed to be redoing it again - might be a closer remake of the original - although to me why bother just remaking the original.


It's a little bit of a mystery what this new version is exactly. The executive producer (Sam Esmail, the guy behind Mr. Robot) has said it's a new story set within Ron Moore's nu-BSG mythology.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 14:44:29


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 15:00:12


Post by: Overread


chaos0xomega wrote:

Then you would just be complaining that they ripped off and plagiarized BSG and that they should have just remade BSG instead. And sure - even if you personally wouldn't have said that, someone else would have. This is how it works, you can't please everyone. In general the approach taken by nBSG and now with this B5 reboot is the best approach to take IMO (and evidently the film/tv industry generally agrees).


Aye, but at the same time its much easier to get past something being inspired by something else and to enjoy it for what it is. Consider how many fantasy stories copied similar structures to Lord of the Rings. Each one might "rip off" part of the formula, but each one puts its own twists and turns on it. Heck look at GW and all the ideas they are inspired by from other franchises; or Starcraft and how it copies 40K etc... When you have something that is a fully separate story/lore/setting/product that copies some elements of other things, then not only is it able to do what it wants without constant comparison; its also much easier to separate the two.

When you, instead, have something that is outright based upon and is a retelling then its comparisons are going to be constant. When those characters are changed in the new version; when the story changes; when the setting and plot and structure chances you constantly keep comparing it back to the original (esp if you had fond memories of the original). So its a constant comparison and measuring stick. For some it becomes hard to appreciate the new thing because at the back of the mind is the original.



B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 15:09:44


Post by: beast_gts


 gorgon wrote:
I mean...you're talking about a reboot of a one-season series
My brain went: "What? There was more than that!", so I checked - 24 episodes of the 1978–1979 season, then 10 episodes of Galactica 1980.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 15:13:32


Post by: Overread


beast_gts wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
I mean...you're talking about a reboot of a one-season series
My brain went: "What? There was more than that!", so I checked - 24 episodes of the 1978–1979 season, then 10 episodes of Galactica 1980.


Yeah it always surprises me too how short it was. Then again I think most of us saw it when we were much younger and when things were released per week. So those 24 episodes are half a year of releases; a touch more if released back to back with the second season of shows.

Another thing, certainly in the 90s when I saw a lot of these TV shows, was that they had the 6pm BB2 slot (at least when it wasn't tennis season...). So when one season/series/show ended, another replaced it, and often from the same time period/genre. So it was all one big sci-fi event that was able to go on for years.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 15:20:50


Post by: Voss


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


Oh, very much this. The characters were awful, the relationships trashier and less mature than teen melodramas (with extra pain, rape and abuse), and the series as a whole traded 'character growth' for 'character damage.'


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 15:22:40


Post by: gorgon


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


Well, dark and tragic tales with very flawed, morally grey (or worse) characters go back to the birth of drama in ancient Greece. They didn't start with the 2000s. Now, you may have a case that television got darker around that time as it got more mature and less formula and saw an influx of talented storytellers. But there was plenty of 'grit' in movies and theater for a long, long time before then.

Look, if bright/shiny/campy etc is your taste, that's fine. But everything doesn't need to be written for you. BSG just wasn't for you, and that's fine. Different people like different things, and plenty of people (audiences and critics) liked it and there's nothing morally or emotionally wrong with them because they did.

I would say though that BSG is a *very* dark premise. The original wasn't that dark past the pilot because 1970s TV couldn't be. The 2000s version was a much more honest take on what that desperate situation would look like. Again, that realism may not be something that you're looking for, but others appreciate it.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 15:34:22


Post by: chaos0xomega


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


They absolutely are normal flawed people. Your head has to be pretty far up your own ass if you think your own gak don't stink.Theres nothing about these people that are any different than basically everyone you know and associate with, other than the fact that they are on a spaceship fleeing for their lives. Basically for the most part real world problems that real world people deal with - alcoholism, broken marriages, broken families, bad romances, daddy issues, etc.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 15:34:40


Post by: gorgon


beast_gts wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
I mean...you're talking about a reboot of a one-season series
My brain went: "What? There was more than that!", so I checked - 24 episodes of the 1978–1979 season, then 10 episodes of Galactica 1980.


Yep, it was a blip. And far stronger in its conception than execution despite the insane budgets for its day.

I think the only real concept with Galactica: 1980 was "how can we keep Galactica going for like 1/20th of its previous budget?"


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 15:36:20


Post by: chaos0xomega


Voss wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


Oh, very much this. The characters were awful, the relationships trashier and less mature than teen melodramas (with extra pain, rape and abuse), and the series as a whole traded 'character growth' for 'character damage.'


Gee, I can't imagine there would be anything that might cause damage or trauma while fleeing from an existential crisis with the remaining handful of humanity that weren't obliterated on day 1 of a Holocaust. Nope, nothing about that sort of high pressure situation that would result in pain or bad decisions for anyone.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 15:36:36


Post by: gorgon


chaos0xomega wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


They absolutely are normal flawed people. Your head has to be pretty far up your own ass if you think your own gak don't stink.Theres nothing about these people that are any different than basically everyone you know and associate with, other than the fact that they are on a spaceship fleeing for their lives. Basically for the most part real world problems that real world people deal with - alcoholism, broken marriages, broken families, bad romances, daddy issues, etc.


And again...these already flawed people were also traumatized by the loss of their civilization and almost everyone they knew in a single day.

Edit: Nice ninjaing.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 15:48:48


Post by: chaos0xomega


Yeah, I don't really get the "these people are awful" bit. Fundamentally they are pretty normal - mediocre and milquetoast even, dealing with fairly mundane baggage... and then they get thrust into whats basically the worst situation imaginable and have to try to survive the apocalypse, basically with nothing but the close on their backs, and try to make the best of an awful situation while navigating through a long series of decisions with no good or right answers.

What do you expect the outcome of that to be? Gumdrops and lemonade? High-brow philosophical musings from the captains chair? The series runs through the characters calling shots based on a position of moral rectitude rather than worldly pragmatism pretty early on and the dire consequences that result from doing so when up against an opponent with an entirely different value system that dgaf about your morals or ethics - the characters are pretty rapidly (for the most part) disabused of the notion that the black and white viewpoint that some of the people in this thread seem to have is realistic or even helpful in such a situation - though the struggle between doing the right thing and doing things that are right for the situation remains persistent throughout the series and is the source of no small amount of conflict and angst.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 15:50:52


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Let’s also remember Adama and Tigh were meant to be retiring. One suspects that given Galactica was effectively being semi-mothballed at the time of the attack, her crew might not have been The Best of the Best. It seems entirely reasonable they were slack offs being put somewhere relatively harmless.

That we can chart their stresses and lows makes for far more engaging TV if you ask me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, back to the possible B5 reboot.

I have good reason to be optimistic. The original as well covered was ground breaking for its time. Not just it’s overarching narrative approach, but the themes it approached too.

Since then, TV and the appetites of those who watch it have expanded quite considerably, as has the background political picture. Whilst not directly comparable in terms of genre, stuff like Sopranos, The Wire etc have all expanded the same boundaries. So who knows how much more they can delve into the political quandaries?

And it’s the same head honcho in the driving seat - a writer who’s stock has arguably only increased since B5 concluded. So he may enjoy far greater creative freedom this time around, as both he and the concept are very much tried, tested and dare I say trusted?


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 16:06:27


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


There are miles and miles of middle ground between bright and shiny and negligent, abusive alcoholics who get innocent people killed and don’t seem to care. Any characters who started out “normal and flawed” rather than already ruined garbage people were made to look even worse than them by the end of the third season.

I’m not joking when I say these people aren’t normal. At least they’re not people I know and associate with, and if you claim that they are “normal” as in representative of the average American, then I reiterate to you that you don’t have to know destructive people. I would not allow my circle of friends, coworkers and acquaintances to be that toxic—and I don’t wa t that garbage in my escapism.

Babylon 5 had real, flawed people without being over the top grimderp. It’s possible to have flawed people without your show turning into endless misery porn.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 16:55:45


Post by: chaos0xomega


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There are miles and miles of middle ground between bright and shiny and negligent, abusive alcoholics who get innocent people killed and don’t seem to care. Any characters who started out “normal and flawed” rather than already ruined garbage people were made to look even worse than them by the end of the third season.

I’m not joking when I say these people aren’t normal. At least they’re not people I know and associate with, and if you claim that they are “normal” as in representative of the average American, then I reiterate to you that you don’t have to know destructive people. I would not allow my circle of friends, coworkers and acquaintances to be that toxic—and I don’t wa t that garbage in my escapism.


Just because you hold your immediate acquaintances to high standards doesn't mean that these people don't exist and aren't common (and in reality I'm willing to bet that there are people amongst your friends, family, and acquaintances are just as damaged and fethed up, you're just not privy to all the details of their personal lives like you are with a tv character, or overlook their flaws for their redeeming qualities and because "they go to church on sundays and volunteer at the homeless shelter".

And your "don't seem to care" comment really makes me wonder if you even watched the show, or whether or not you are recalling it properly. No small amount of alcoholism on the show on the parts of several characters is fueled by angst and guilt over their actions. A rather considerable amount of angst, inner, external, and interpersonal conflict on the show is fueled by guilt and anger and the impacts and consequences resulting from various decisions made. Theres only a handful of characters that are actually as heartless and soulless as you claim, and pretty much all of them are definitively the villains in the story.

and I don’t wa t that garbage in my escapism.


Then don't watch it. Its really that simple. This isn't being made for you. You are just one person in a sea of billions who might or might not watch the show. JMS is not going to lose a second of sleep worrying about if BobtheInquisitor is going to clutch his pearls over how his characters are written. There are plenty of people out there who enjoyed and appreciated "that garbage" for its gritty and realistic portrayal of space war and the impact it has on the people fighting it and would long for more. If you want your characters to all be heroic and morally inflexible paladins, theres plenty of other scifi out there for you to enjoy.

Babylon 5 had real, flawed people without being over the top grimderp. It’s possible to have flawed people without your show turning into endless misery porn.


Man, you must have absolutely loathed Game of Thrones if you qualify BSG as "misery porn".


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 17:10:28


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


You say “then don’t watch it.” I already told you I stopped watching it. I’m not against other people enjoying it—I’m against making the B5 reboot in its image. That is the topic of the thread. B5 would absolutely be ruined if given the same treatment. Fundamentally B5 is an optimistic show, where humans (and the younger races) grow and learn to stand on their own. BSG is fundamentally a pessimistic show where “it has happened before and it will happen again.” It reiterated again and again that humanity is trapped in an endless cycle of hatred, violence and misery. The characters for each show fit their themes; inserting BSG-style characters into B5 would break it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for Game of Thrones, I did stop watching it after the first season. However, I read the books up until Tyrion On A Boat. Having an engaging plot and intrigue can keep me interested even when most of the characters don’t, just as BSG kept me watching while I still thought “they have a plan”. In both cases, I stopped when either the misery outweighed my interest in the plot or when it became clear there wasn’t a plot there at all.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 17:48:41


Post by: chaos0xomega


And thats my point. Don't watch it. By it I mean the B5 reboot. JMS has already indicated he admires the BSG reboot and is using it as a source of inspiration for the B5 reboot. Too bad - guess you won't like it since you think it'll be ruined - so don't watch it.

Myself and quite a few others evidently disagree with you. We will be watching it, and enjoying it.

What absolutely will not happen is that JMS will wander into dakka, see this thread, see your posts, and go "oh no, BobtheInquisitor won't like this, better scrap my plans". You're not going to change anything. JMS is more than aware of some peoples mixed feelings (to put it politely) towards BSG - he is on record disagreeing, defending the show, etc. Ron D. Moore happens to be a friend of his, and he has stated in the past that he reviewed Rons scripts and treatments and gave him advice on it while it was in development.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 18:03:23


Post by: gorgon


Nice deflection Bob, but the below post seems very much about the existence of "dark and gritty" entertainment -- while *just* toeing the line on judging people who enjoy it -- and not about the path that the Babylon 5 reboot would take.

If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


Again, you can see tragic stories of flawed, self-destructive jackholes in the earliest dramas we know of, and they never went away. Obviously these stories connect with some segments of humanity. From my perspective, it seems like you're really only considering sci-fi television, a lot of which probably did follow the Star Trek template up until the mid-90s/early 2000s. B5 still followed a lot of the ST formula.

IIRC, Ron Moore said what they did on BSG was everything he wasn't allowed to do on ST. So given a situation where the showrunner was intentionally turning ST on its head and breaking its rules...sure, it makes sense that you wouldn't like it if ST was your thing.

Getting this back on topic, I don't think some of us are saying that B5 should mirror BSG in *tone*. At least I'm not. It's that reimagining it, changing up the formula, trying new things, etc. like BSG did is a better way to go then just serving up a rehash with new actors OR some fan service-y continuation with better sets and FX that breaks no new ground. When David Lynch revisited Twin Peaks, he intentionally avoided giving people more of the gang chillin' at the police station like it was 1990. Without going into it, he really even rubbed fans' noses in it. But after pushing past that, I saw what he gave us was so much better...another original vision and probably Lynch's career masterpiece, IMO. And heck, that WAS a continuation of the original show.

So I'm glad JMS wants to push boundaries and mix it up. I may like it...or I may not. But it sounds like it will at least be interesting and original, and that will get me watching where the reverse would not.





B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 18:19:43


Post by: Mr Morden


 gorgon wrote:
Nice deflection Bob, but the below post seems very much about the existence of "dark and gritty" entertainment -- while *just* toeing the line on judging people who enjoy it -- and not about the path that the Babylon 5 reboot would take.

If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


Again, you can see tragic stories of flawed, self-destructive jackholes in the earliest dramas we know of, and they never went away. Obviously these stories connect with some segments of humanity. From my perspective, it seems like you're really only considering sci-fi television, a lot of which probably did follow the Star Trek template up until the mid-90s/early 2000s. B5 still followed a lot of the ST formula.

IIRC, Ron Moore said what they did on BSG was everything he wasn't allowed to do on ST. So given a situation where the showrunner was intentionally turning ST on its head and breaking its rules...sure, it makes sense that you wouldn't like it if ST was your thing.

Getting this back on topic, I don't think some of us are saying that B5 should mirror BSG in *tone*. At least I'm not. It's that reimagining it, changing up the formula, trying new things, etc. like BSG did is a better way to go then just serving up a rehash with new actors OR some fan service-y continuation with better sets and FX that breaks no new ground. When David Lynch revisited Twin Peaks, he intentionally avoided giving people more of the gang chillin' at the police station like it was 1990. Without going into it, he really even rubbed fans' noses in it. But after pushing past that, I saw what he gave us was so much better...another original vision and probably Lynch's career masterpiece, IMO. And heck, that WAS a continuation of the original show.

So I'm glad JMS wants to push boundaries and mix it up. I may like it...or I may not. But it sounds like it will at least be interesting and original, and that will get me watching where the reverse would not.



Agreed in all respects well not seen the redone Twin Peaks as got bored with the original.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 18:38:02


Post by: chaos0xomega


Also, I feel the need to point out the abject irony of complaining about how the characters in BSG were awful people and that it was too grimdark while discussing B5. Oh no, there were alcoholics and killers on BSG, better not say that around Dr. Franklin the stim addict or Garibaldi the recovering alcoholic. Better not mention all the mutual attempts by the Narn/G'Kar and Centauri/Londo to exterminate one another in acts of genocide. How about Lennier leaving Sheridan for dead so he could have Delenn for himself? Or how Garibaldi betrays Sheridan? Better not mention the whole Earthgov civil war bit that results in the planet being nuked back into prehistory, or the whole Centauri Prime being burned to the ground bit.

God I could go on about how dark B5 is and how awful the characters in the show could be. The only reason BSG was darker is because it came 10 years later in the post-9/11 era and pulled no punches in showing the darker side of humanity, but for its own time B5 was pretty dark itself.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 18:55:24


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


i'll certainly be interested to see what a reboot could look like

although if crusade was anything to go by it could end up being a major dissapointment


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 19:02:53


Post by: warhead01


I really love B5. All I can do is wait and see how this new thing turns out. Being modern TV I will set my expectations to Zero. If I had my way it would be a further continuation of the story and not a reboot but whatever happens happens.
A recasting of Londo will have big boots to fill.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 19:16:59


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 warhead01 wrote:
I really love B5. All I can do is wait and see how this new thing turns out. Being modern TV I will set my expectations to Zero. If I had my way it would be a further continuation of the story and not a reboot but whatever happens happens.
A recasting of Londo will have big boots to fill.


With Londo and G’Kar needing new actors, it’s a great excuse to revisit and redefine their relationship. So long as they remain true to their species archetypes, there’s a fair amount of wiggle room. A new pairing with a similar if not exact dynamic could be ace.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 20:01:47


Post by: warhead01


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
I really love B5. All I can do is wait and see how this new thing turns out. Being modern TV I will set my expectations to Zero. If I had my way it would be a further continuation of the story and not a reboot but whatever happens happens.
A recasting of Londo will have big boots to fill.


With Londo and G’Kar needing new actors, it’s a great excuse to revisit and redefine their relationship. So long as they remain true to their species archetypes, there’s a fair amount of wiggle room. A new pairing with a similar if not exact dynamic could be ace.


Sure. I just enjoy them as they were and don't see anything to change. I feel like they were the reason to watch to show, for me anyway. I enjoyed them more than any of the other characters or other plots. They both had a lot of character development as their stories built. I am not sure what needs to be redefined, or what you mean by that or how.
I'd be more excited to see more of Vir Cotto as his career progresses and what kind of rivalries he grows into and the troubles that make it interesting.

I'm not looking for reasons not to at least watch the pilot or dislike the new show. I just know what I'd be excited to see and I know some characters from the original will be difficult imop, as I said big boots to fill.

My problem with much of the modern stuff I watch or have seen is mostly that I just dislike lazy dialog and catch phrases like "you got this". That sort of thing ruins most show for me.
If the new B5 isn't to my liking I still have all the original episodes and seasons on a hard drive, I'll survive...some how.




B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 20:06:20


Post by: Ian Sturrock


I'm pretty optimistic.

I think it needs a big and diverse writers room, The Good Place style, to really hone the dialogue and keep all those multiple plots and subplots spinning. JMS did a fine job a quarter century ago, and B5 is still one of my fave anythings ever, but it could be SO MUCH BETTER with what we know about making good TV today.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 20:08:00


Post by: gorgon


 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
i'll certainly be interested to see what a reboot could look like

although if crusade was anything to go by it could end up being a major dissapointment


It'll be interesting to see what JMS has in mind.

It could be fun to take a page from the ST movies and treat it like a "Kelvin timeline"/"What If?" where certain events happened differently and led to (maybe more dramatic than the ST films) changed political/societal/technological situations among the same factions. That way longtime viewers can dive into the new mythology and chew on what changed and how, while new viewers can just watch it as is. I'm just spitballing...I'm sure JMS has more interesting ideas than me right now.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 20:16:02


Post by: Voss


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
I really love B5. All I can do is wait and see how this new thing turns out. Being modern TV I will set my expectations to Zero. If I had my way it would be a further continuation of the story and not a reboot but whatever happens happens.
A recasting of Londo will have big boots to fill.


With Londo and G’Kar needing new actors, it’s a great excuse to revisit and redefine their relationship. So long as they remain true to their species archetypes, there’s a fair amount of wiggle room. A new pairing with a similar if not exact dynamic could be ace.


I wouldn't be surprised if those 'species archetypes' changed quite a bit. They were a bit different in the original pilot (G'kar was a fair bit more effeminate and flounced around with a perfumed handkerchief, for example. Though I'd not suggest going back to that specific take on the character) and even early in the series before the Narn vs Centauri power dynamic flipped. By the end there was a fair bit of degeneration of nuance and it became 'evil French aristocrats' vs 'plantation slaves turned terrorists.' And Vir was basically the only decent Centauri in the whole of existence- his engagement episode was particularly nauseating for lack of anything other than big moral anvils landing on the guest characters with a distinct splat.

I'd also hope that JMS would be savvy enough to not just recast all the original characters as the same people and hope they can carry the show. It'd be more interesting, for example, if the Shadow agent(s) skipped the Centauri because their Ambassador didn't have Londo's drive for glory and recognition and fear of a dead end career with no prospects. (And given the summary suggests they're just skipping Sinclair and starting with Sheridan in command says they're doing at least some of this).


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 20:33:01


Post by: chaos0xomega


 warhead01 wrote:


My problem with much of the modern stuff I watch or have seen is mostly that I just dislike lazy dialog and catch phrases like "you got this". That sort of thing ruins most show for me.
If the new B5 isn't to my liking I still have all the original episodes and seasons on a hard drive, I'll survive...some how.




I mean, JMS isn't necessarily known for writing great dialogue, the dialogue in the original wasn't particularly great (and by that I mean that a lot of it gives George Lucas a run for his money for how dryly written and uninspired it is). The show is more known for its dramatic one-liners than it is banter or verbal sparring, but even the dramatic one-liners are more awkward than they are punchy - they look great written down on a message board or whatever, but when you actually watch the scenes they come from they just come across as hamfisted.

Voss wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if those 'species archetypes' changed quite a bit. They were a bit different in the original pilot (G'kar was a fair bit more effeminate and flounced around with a perfumed handkerchief, for example. Though I'd not suggest going back to that specific take on the character) and even early in the series before the Narn vs Centauri power dynamic flipped. By the end there was a fair bit of degeneration of nuance and it became 'evil French aristocrats' vs 'plantation slaves turned terrorists.' And Vir was basically the only decent Centauri in the whole of existence- his engagement episode was particularly nauseating for lack of anything other than big moral anvils landing on the guest characters with a distinct splat.
I'd also hope that JMS would be savvy enough to not just recast all the original characters as the same people and hope they can carry the show. It'd be more interesting, for example, if the Shadow agent(s) skipped the Centauri because their Ambassador didn't have Londo's drive for glory and recognition and fear of a dead end career with no prospects. (And given the summary suggests they're just skipping Sinclair and starting with Sheridan in command says they're doing at least some of this).


I think the idea of "species archetypes" is dead (unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by the use of the term). Its the sort of thing that a large segment of mainstream pop culture consumers have actively rebelled against in various forms of media for the last 10 years or so. People want characters to be individuals rather than being avatars playing out the stereotypes of their race. G'Kar and Londo can continue to be portrayed the way they always were, but I would expect that the Centauri and Narn as a whole will be portrayed with more nuance and depth with individuals having their own beliefs, behaviors, and agendas that sometimes align with and sometimes don't align with those of the cultures that created them, rather than every character being a two-dimensional personality clone acting out a predefined role based on racial traits/characteristics that have been applied as a universal label to the species.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/29 22:47:08


Post by: Cronch


nuBSG definitely came out right in the middle of that horrid grimderp period of 2000s when everything had to be smeared in blood, semen and hopefully shreds of torn love letters. Fortunately, with the flop that the final season of GoT was, it seems to be largely beyond us. I'm sure the usual zombies in exec chairs at movie/broadcasting studios will try to push for it for a while, but the impetous is basically gone, as usual whenever one trend dominates media for such a long time.

So hopefully the B5 reboot will have characters more down to earth and human than BSG.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 00:12:45


Post by: gorgon


It's very, very weird to me how angry and possessive some of you guys get over *tone*. I have the ability to enjoy entertainment with all kinds of different tones...and I think that's true of most people, LOL. Dark stories with self-destructive characters weren't exactly invented two decades ago, and we can see that in Euripides to Shakespeare to Scorsese to countless more.

It's okay if you strictly limit yourself to light fare such as Marvel movies, Star Trek episodes, cartoons intended for children and the like...enjoy yourself! But in that instance, you need to understand that you're the one working from a very limited menu, and that other people might like more variety in their diet. Everything doesn't have to be for you and your taste and there's nothing wrong with that. There's no reason to criticize it for being different or people for enjoying something different.

Besides, there are a lot of works of entertainment that get quite a bit darker than BSG. So it's also odd to be pointing at that as some kind of imagined nadir.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 00:33:34


Post by: chaos0xomega


gorgon continues to lay down the *T*R*U*T*H*.



B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 00:51:27


Post by: Voss


 gorgon wrote:
It's very, very weird to me how angry and possessive some of you guys get over *tone*. I have the ability to enjoy entertainment with all kinds of different tones...and I think that's true of most people, LOL. Dark stories with self-destructive characters weren't exactly invented two decades ago, and we can see that in Euripides to Shakespeare to Scorsese to countless more.

It's okay if you strictly limit yourself to light fare such as Marvel movies, Star Trek episodes, cartoons intended for children and the like...enjoy yourself! But in that instance, you need to understand that you're the one working from a very limited menu, and that other people might like more variety in their diet. Everything doesn't have to be for you and your taste and there's nothing wrong with that. There's no reason to criticize it for being different or people for enjoying something different.

Besides, there are a lot of works of entertainment that get quite a bit darker than BSG. So it's also odd to be pointing at that as some kind of imagined nadir.


That's a potentially interesting, but irrelevant tangent. It isn't that dark things shouldn't exist or that they're strange or unwatchable.
Its about the context of the specific show, and the decades long campaign that had been going on to create a faithful, meaningful reboot of a specific series (one that was, frankly, a fairly lighthearted sci-fi serial). Imagine if Star Trek the Next Generation had kicked off with Picard sexually assaulting Troi or Crusher and snapping Wesley's neck.

Or, indeed, a reboot of Star Trek that suddenly switched from utopian ideal to some crazed, militant state with rampant racism & bigotry and instead of impassioned speeches about the rights of free beings and the importance of intellectual discourses, its suddenly drug addicts and incoherent swearing...
Context and expectations shape reactions, strangely enough. For the genre, format and influence on what other drek was produced, it was something of a nadir.

Though Cronch is right that it was part of an infestation of an entire period of television, one I was happy to skip out on and not bother getting cable.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 02:23:12


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Voss wrote:
I'd also hope that JMS would be savvy enough to not just recast all the original characters as the same people and hope they can carry the show.
Well it is on the CW, and with their DC stuff they've had a great track record of bringing back as many previous actors from other related shows but putting them in different roles, like, Dean Cain playing Supergirl's human father, Terri Hatcher playing an evil Daxamite ruler, the original Supergirl movie actress playing Supergirl's human mother, Kevin Conroy playing an old Batman, all the way up to John Cryer, who played Lex Luthor's cousin... nephew (?)... in Superman 3 back as the Arrowverse's version of Lex Luthor. Hell, they even had Brandon Routh play a version of Superman opposite himself playing a completely different character, and John Wesley Shipp - the 90's Flash - play the Flash's father, Earth-2's Flash and 90's Flash all in the same show!

So I don't think they'd get the same actors back to play the same roles, but back to play other roles - supporting, reoccuring or even just guest roles - that's a possibility, and one that could be quite fun.



B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 03:19:27


Post by: Vulcan


chaos0xomega wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:

Oh, gods, no, do not look to BSG rebooted for inspiration. B5 fans do not want the main characters to be such awful people that by the third season we're rooting for the Shadows to win just to wipe the lot of them out...


If your take away from nBSG is that the characters are all awful people then you took away the wrong message. The point was that they were all flawed people (well, except for Gaius, he was an awful person though he had a solid redemption arc) - i.e. they were all normal, regular people with their own challenges, issues, and demons traveling down the road to hell, paving it with good intentions as they went along. It was a refreshing change of pace from the more typical dramatic presentation of characters as all being somewhat rigid 2-dimensional paladins of truth, justice, and the American way or whatever.


Sorry, but my takeaway was that the Cylons should have been the protagonists, as they were far better people than the 'average' awful people of the refugee fleet.

I agree that the original series characters were, by modern standards, pretty much parodies of real people. Still, is it too much to ask that the heroes at least not be total jerks who are arguable worse than the villains of the piece?

100% this was my feeling too.

They changed so much of the original characters that the new BS wasn't really the same story any more. Sure the ship looked the same and the character names were the same and the whole "running from the cylons" was there, but after that it basically was totally different. It also felt like at the same time they were trying to put more women into the story (in a very ham-fisted way) they were also trying to just have more overt sex, which I dunno just felt wrong in Battlestar. Or at least the way they presented and showed it felt wrong.


Ok, but if they left everything basically the same then it would just be watching the same exact gak that you watched previously, just with better sfx and more room to make direct comparisons to the original - which would be miserable (imagine the discourse if they did this for B5: "Peter Jurasik was so much better as Londo than Idris Elba is, the way Idris said 'Mr. Garibaldi' in scene 4 of episode 21 is just wrong without the odd inflection and characteristic growl used by Jurasik in the same scene 20 years ago." - no thanks).

I'd honestly have likely enjoyed it more if it was totally fresh as a theme and if they'd just done the whole similar story pitch as Battlestar.


Then you would just be complaining that they ripped off and plagiarized BSG and that they should have just remade BSG instead. And sure - even if you personally wouldn't have said that, someone else would have. This is how it works, you can't please everyone. In general the approach taken by nBSG and now with this B5 reboot is the best approach to take IMO (and evidently the film/tv industry generally agrees).


Gee, you sure seem to know what I would think better than I do. Mind telling me how I feel about Star Trek Discovery so I don't have to watch it to find out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
I might have liked it, had it not been for the expectations they brought upon themselves by linking to the original series.

When you connect to a previous franchise, THAT BRINGS EXPECTATIONS. If you're not going to live up to the expectations, make up your own names and do something unique instead of wrecking something old.

Starbuck was a smooth-talking con-man, not an insubordinate jerk. Boomer was not a boomer. If you want more female representation, whatever happened to Sheeba and Cassiopia and Athena?


I mean...you're talking about a reboot of a one-season series that was 25 years old even at the time. It was very much out of the public consciousness, so it's really hard to act as if it was some kind of iconic work that Moore and company trampled on. Sure, at first it's a little jarring to old BSG fans to see Starbuck played by a woman.


Starbuck being a woman was never a problem. Starbuck being a rude, insubordinate jerk is the problem. Colonel Tigh going from a consummate professional to a rude, alcoholic jerk is the problem. Commander Adama going from a wise, compassionate leader to a rude totalitarian jerk is the problem. Doesn't matter what plumbing they have or who they choose to bed, having EVERYONE be a jerk is a problem.

Long and short. NuBSG is about people with problems generally FAILING to overcome them, with the result being that they all look like jerks. B5 was about people with problems working to overcome them - Sinclair's PTSD, Ivanova's trust issues, Garabaldi's alcoholism and paranoia, Franklin's work and stim addiction, G'Kar and Londo's xenophobia - and generally succeeding.

But Kara Thrace was a far better character than the cardboard cutout original Starbuck.


I'll grant you that. But she wasn't playing Starbuck either.

I settled in pretty quickly with their changes after I realized that the writing, characters and performances were all far better than the original series.


I'll grant you the performances were better. The writing... well, if what you wanted was stories about jerks being jerks to each other and once you figured out that the nicer characters were almost certain to be revealed to be Cylon traitors, yeah, that's better writing. The characters were still mostly jerks that made me root for the Cylons before the end of season 3.

Regarding the original female characters, all but one of them spent their time 'back at the ranch' while the men did 'the real work'. Militaries had changed since 1979, so it was appropriate for the show to change with them and show more women in front-line combat roles. But you also need to be economical with your characters. You can only feature so many of them. Would you have felt less bothered by fighter pilots named Cassiopeia and Sheeba being first-tier characters while male characters named Boomer and Starbuck became second- or third-tier? If so, why?


Yes, in 1979 having women in front-line roles felt odd. But I don't recall any complaints about Lieutenant Sheba flying in combat or fighting Centurions when she did appear.

Having Sheeba and Athena be the main characters? No problem. (Casseopia was originally 'professional companion' in the same model as Inarra Serra of Firefly, who went on to become a competent medtech, she was never a combatant.) Starbuck and Apollo in the background? No worries. So long as they're not all professional jerks, anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


They absolutely are normal flawed people. Your head has to be pretty far up your own ass if you think your own gak don't stink.Theres nothing about these people that are any different than basically everyone you know and associate with, other than the fact that they are on a spaceship fleeing for their lives. Basically for the most part real world problems that real world people deal with - alcoholism, broken marriages, broken families, bad romances, daddy issues, etc.


Which may be true, but if that's what I want to see I can see it by doing volunteer work for that hour instead, and at least there I might be able to do some genuine good to help those people out.

Indeed, looking back that's exactly what I SHOULD have done with my time instead of watching three seasons of American Grimdark Social Commentary IN SPAAAAACE!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Gee, I can't imagine there would be anything that might cause damage or trauma while fleeing from an existential crisis with the remaining handful of humanity that weren't obliterated on day 1 of a Holocaust. Nope, nothing about that sort of high pressure situation that would result in pain or bad decisions for anyone.


True, but when EVERYONE collapses into that sort of dysfunction? There's not ONE person who rises above their problems and call for unity and compassion who's NOT a Cylon?

Long and short: Original BSG - and to keep things at least tangentally on subject, Babylon 5 - was about rising above your problems. NuBSG was about wallowing in them and therefore is not a good source of inspiration for a B5 remake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:
And I don’t want that garbage in my escapism.


Then don't watch it. Its really that simple. This isn't being made for you. You are just one person in a sea of billions who might or might not watch the show. JMS is not going to lose a second of sleep worrying about if BobtheInquisitor is going to clutch his pearls over how his characters are written. There are plenty of people out there who enjoyed and appreciated "that garbage" for its gritty and realistic portrayal of space war and the impact it has on the people fighting it and would long for more. If you want your characters to all be heroic and morally inflexible paladins, theres plenty of other scifi out there for you to enjoy.

Babylon 5 had real, flawed people without being over the top grimderp. It’s possible to have flawed people without your show turning into endless misery porn.


Man, you must have absolutely loathed Game of Thrones if you qualify BSG as "misery porn".


Yes, GoT got shut off within fifteen minutes and I went to my volunteer work early instead. I learned my lesson from NuBSG.

Yes, JMS might well make another version of American Grimdark Social Commentary IN SPAAAACE, and he won't miss me spending the time at volunteer work instead. But I think that IF this is what happens, America will be far better served by all of us volunteering our time to see it in person and HELP, rather than watch it on TV. A few million extra volunteer hours would do wonders for the working poor, and it might even generate some sympathy for them among the rest of the population.

OR, JMS might make a series about troubled people overcoming their problems and being inspirational instead and make the whole comparison argument moot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
You say “then don’t watch it.” I already told you I stopped watching it. I’m not against other people enjoying it—I’m against making the B5 reboot in its image. That is the topic of the thread. B5 would absolutely be ruined if given the same treatment. Fundamentally B5 is an optimistic show, where humans (and the younger races) grow and learn to stand on their own. BSG is fundamentally a pessimistic show where “it has happened before and it will happen again.” It reiterated again and again that humanity is trapped in an endless cycle of hatred, violence and misery. The characters for each show fit their themes; inserting BSG-style characters into B5 would break it.


No, inserting them into B5 as the protagonists would break it... unless, as G'Kar and Londo did, they eventually work to overcome it.

After all, isn't 'it happened before and it'll happen again' a fair description of Bester, William Edgars, and Byron Gordon, all antagonists of varying degrees? Not to mention the whole issue of the Shadows vs. the Vorlons...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 gorgon wrote:
It's very, very weird to me how angry and possessive some of you guys get over *tone*. I have the ability to enjoy entertainment with all kinds of different tones...and I think that's true of most people, LOL. Dark stories with self-destructive characters weren't exactly invented two decades ago, and we can see that in Euripides to Shakespeare to Scorsese to countless more.

It's okay if you strictly limit yourself to light fare such as Marvel movies, Star Trek episodes, cartoons intended for children and the like...enjoy yourself! But in that instance, you need to understand that you're the one working from a very limited menu, and that other people might like more variety in their diet. Everything doesn't have to be for you and your taste and there's nothing wrong with that. There's no reason to criticize it for being different or people for enjoying something different.

Besides, there are a lot of works of entertainment that get quite a bit darker than BSG. So it's also odd to be pointing at that as some kind of imagined nadir.


Tone only becomes a problem when it mirrors the worst of humanity and there's no hope of character growth or redemption or even just things eventually getting a little better. If that's where you're going with the story, make it short and bittersweet and get it over with in one movie or book(1984, Animal Farm, etc.), don't drag it out over five seasons of TV. I get to see people live it despite my best efforts. No need to watch it for 'entertainment' too.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 05:29:32


Post by: Dysartes


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So I don't think they'd get the same actors back to play the same roles, but back to play other roles - supporting, reoccuring or even just guest roles - that's a possibility, and one that could be quite fun.

Given how many major cast members aren't with us any more, that could prove tricky - I was hoping that Vir's actor could maybe play Londo, but didn't realise he'd died a few years back :(


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 06:53:39


Post by: Mr Morden


Sadly alot of them have gone.

Those few who are left include:

Claudia Christian (56)
Walter Koenig (85)
Andrea Thompson (61)
Bill Mumy (67)
Tracy Scoggins (67)
Peter Jurasik (71)
Patricia Tallman (64)
Ed Wasser (57)


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 08:07:18


Post by: Flinty


And Bruce! (71)


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 08:18:41


Post by: tneva82


chaos0xomega wrote:


Agreed. Books, film, television, and video games are all distinct mediums and the method and manner of storytelling for each one needs to differ as a result. Spending the last 20 out of 100 episodes on "resolution" would be absolutely miserable if all the action peaked during episodes 41-60 and largely settled from 61-80.


That was from assumption shadow war was all B5 was about...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And it’s the same head honcho in the driving seat - a writer who’s stock has arguably only increased since B5 concluded. So he may enjoy far greater creative freedom this time around, as both he and the concept are very much tried, tested and dare I say trusted?


He has already stated he has great creative freedom regarding the project. Of course it's possible he is lying.

Also for "there won't be any surprises". Well it's not retelling same story with new CGI but new story...so if you are expecting things to go same way I would be willing to bet you will be off the marks all the time. Knowing JMS he will throw curve balls at you. Hell first he will hint it goes same way and then he throws unexpected curve ball at you. While trolling naysayer's while at it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
You say “then don’t watch it.” I already told you I stopped watching it. I’m not against other people enjoying it—I’m against making the B5 reboot in its image. That is the topic of the thread. B5 would absolutely be ruined if given the same treatment. Fundamentally B5 is an optimistic show, where humans (and the younger races) grow and learn to stand on their own. BSG is fundamentally a pessimistic show where “it has happened before and it will happen again.” It reiterated again and again that humanity is trapped in an endless cycle of hatred, violence and misery. The characters for each show fit their themes; inserting BSG-style characters into B5 would break it..


Eh only optimism really B5 had was that humans will keep on living.

It also showed humans will keep screwing up blowing each other up far in future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Sadly alot of them have gone.

Those few who are left include:

Claudia Christian (56)
Walter Koenig (85)
Andrea Thompson (61)
Bill Mumy (67)
Tracy Scoggins (67)
Peter Jurasik (71)
Patricia Tallman (64)
Ed Wasser (57)


And several of those would be risky to recast to any recurring character. JMS's backdoors would be quite likely need to be used.

So if you wanted to do sequels you would need to recast basically entire cast anyway.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 09:51:43


Post by: MarkNorfolk


 Mr Morden wrote:
Sadly alot of them have gone.

Those few who are left include:

Claudia Christian (56)
Walter Koenig (85)
Andrea Thompson (61)
Bill Mumy (67)
Tracy Scoggins (67)
Peter Jurasik (71)
Patricia Tallman (64)
Ed Wasser (57)


Cameo prediction:

Claudia, Pat, and Andrea as Molari's wives.
Walter (85, bloody hell!) as the original Centaturi Emperor
Bill as the caretaker of the Great Machine
Ed as the Commander of Babylon 4
Tracy as President Santiago


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 10:58:52


Post by: tneva82


Sounds a lot like you expect it to be same story as original...


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 12:52:28


Post by: gorgon


tneva82 wrote:
Sounds a lot like you expect it to be same story as original...


The nerd demand, whether we're talking entertainment or rules supplements to tabletop games, is usually "give me exactly what came before...but better and more of it...but the same." So JMS will probably trigger some folks.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 14:04:55


Post by: MarkNorfolk


 gorgon wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Sounds a lot like you expect it to be same story as original...


The nerd demand, whether we're talking entertainment or rules supplements to tabletop games, is usually "give me exactly what came before...but better and more of it...but the same." So JMS will probably trigger some folks.


Well, it was in jest, the old guard could just return as visiting officers/reporters/ politicians on the space station or be on the other end of the frequent video calls to Earth Central. I am expecting a 'Old Galactica to new Galactica' style retelling but some major elements remain. It'll be fun seeing the differences.. and the similarities. But no, I'm not expecting it to be the exactly the same.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 15:58:25


Post by: Graphite


MarkNorfolk wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Sadly alot of them have gone.

Those few who are left include:

Claudia Christian (56)
Walter Koenig (85)
Andrea Thompson (61)
Bill Mumy (67)
Tracy Scoggins (67)
Peter Jurasik (71)
Patricia Tallman (64)
Ed Wasser (57)


Cameo prediction:

Claudia, Pat, and Andrea as Molari's wives.
Walter (85, bloody hell!) as the original Centaturi Emperor
Bill as the caretaker of the Great Machine
Ed as the Commander of Babylon 4
Tracy as President Santiago


I like almost all of these casting suggestions (especially Walter!) but Claudia, Patricia and Andrea need to be captains of massive spaceships at the very least!

And Bruce as either some form of admiral, or a ship's computer in full Tron costume.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 16:16:25


Post by: chaos0xomega


On that note, I'll point out that we never see any admirals on B5 - the rank is mentioned twice, but all the flag officers we see are generals, including those in command of ships and fleets. Likewise, while there are "Captains" in command of vessels, a few of them are also commanded by Majors and Colonels.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 19:40:33


Post by: petrov27


Regardless of the dated CGI I always loved the ship designs for all the different powers and really hope they dont throw all that out for totally new....


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 20:13:59


Post by: bbb


I could never get into B5 because of the effects, but I have lots of friends who professed it's greatness.

Over 15 years ago I decided to give it another shot and rented the pilot from Netflix. It came on a double-sided DVD with a tv movie. I put the DVD in and watched it not realizing that "In the Beginning" wasn't the pilot...

Never got around to revisiting it after I realized the mistake.

So, that being said, I'd be open to the reboot. My guess is that the current TV executives realize how valuable cult tv is, so even if it isn't a hit in the ratings, if they can get in on the merchandising they can still do really well.

As far as nBSG, it was two of the greatest seasons of TV ever.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 20:38:15


Post by: chaos0xomega


Aye, the ship designs were great (and the licensed designs produced for the various tabletop games even better). Curious to see how they are reimagined and redesigned, I think some of them will prove challenging to update while keeping true to the originals.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 20:56:43


Post by: Mr Morden


petrov27 wrote:
Regardless of the dated CGI I always loved the ship designs for all the different powers and really hope they dont throw all that out for totally new....


Yeah I am the same - very cool ships


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 21:08:51


Post by: Graphite


The ship design was almost universally excellent. I even have a soft spot for the Vree saucers.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/09/30 23:29:40


Post by: H.B.M.C.


The Vree were pretty cool.

I also remember that Brakiri cruisers just always seemed to explode without doing anything.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/01 17:22:29


Post by: Ghaz


petrov27 wrote:
Regardless of the dated CGI I always loved the ship designs for all the different powers and really hope they dont throw all that out for totally new....

I expect that any use of the B5 Wars ships would be near non-existent


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/01 18:04:46


Post by: Mr Morden


 Ghaz wrote:
petrov27 wrote:
Regardless of the dated CGI I always loved the ship designs for all the different powers and really hope they dont throw all that out for totally new....

I expect that any use of the B5 Wars ships would be near non-existent


Well the Balvarin was in the Lost Tales IIRC


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/01 18:58:22


Post by: warboss


 Ghaz wrote:
petrov27 wrote:
Regardless of the dated CGI I always loved the ship designs for all the different powers and really hope they dont throw all that out for totally new....

I expect that any use of the B5 Wars ships would be near non-existent


Yeah, I think it's very unrealistic to expect them not to be redesigned. I expect they'll still have the same flavor and general asthetics (blue aquatics for the minbari for example) for the various factions though similar to the BSG reboot.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/01 19:04:06


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
petrov27 wrote:
Regardless of the dated CGI I always loved the ship designs for all the different powers and really hope they dont throw all that out for totally new....

I expect that any use of the B5 Wars ships would be near non-existent


Well the Balvarin was in the Lost Tales IIRC


That’s the new Centauri ship seen in a vision?


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/01 19:11:27


Post by: Mr Morden


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
petrov27 wrote:
Regardless of the dated CGI I always loved the ship designs for all the different powers and really hope they dont throw all that out for totally new....

I expect that any use of the B5 Wars ships would be near non-existent


Well the Balvarin was in the Lost Tales IIRC


That’s the new Centauri ship seen in a vision?


There is the updated Vorchans and there is also the Balvarin carrier in that future vision


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/01 21:27:33


Post by: Ghaz


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
petrov27 wrote:
Regardless of the dated CGI I always loved the ship designs for all the different powers and really hope they dont throw all that out for totally new....

I expect that any use of the B5 Wars ships would be near non-existent


Well the Balvarin was in the Lost Tales IIRC

That was what, like fifteen years ago? And didn't Agents of Gaming still have an active license at that time? Regardless too much time has passed for the old ships to be anything more than an inspiration for the new ships.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/01 21:52:57


Post by: Mr Morden


 Ghaz wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
petrov27 wrote:
Regardless of the dated CGI I always loved the ship designs for all the different powers and really hope they dont throw all that out for totally new....

I expect that any use of the B5 Wars ships would be near non-existent


Well the Balvarin was in the Lost Tales IIRC

That was what, like fifteen years ago? And didn't Agents of Gaming still have an active license at that time? Regardless too much time has passed for the old ships to be anything more than an inspiration for the new ships.


Its was a thing in ACTA (as many ships were) as well who had the licence and also I think JMS mentioned that it was from AOG so he was aware of and happy with their work. Its not beyond realms of possibility that they use some


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/02 11:37:41


Post by: SamusDrake


Urgh...theres that word again; "reboot".

If its going to be too far removed from the original show - like they did with another certain beloved sci-fi show from the late 70s* - then just take the core idea and make an entirely new show based on that, and be done with it. That way it can be given a fair crack of the whip without unnecessary comparisons and appreciated for what it is...and leave the original show's legacy well alone.

That out of the way; a remake of Babylon 5 sounds great! The vfx were a milestone back in the early 90s but imagine what they can accomplish with todays hardware, software and experience! The original show had its share of misfortunes and while it did its best to work around them, its great to be given another chance to go in the direction they originally intended - or maybe something even better still. Maybe the ideas for the spin offs were sound but the execution didn't live up to them, and this could mean another crack at those too.

*B5 wasn't a late 70s show of course, and just pointing out that its is "another certain beloved sci-fi show".



B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/02 14:53:04


Post by: Ghaz


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
petrov27 wrote:
Regardless of the dated CGI I always loved the ship designs for all the different powers and really hope they dont throw all that out for totally new....

I expect that any use of the B5 Wars ships would be near non-existent


Well the Balvarin was in the Lost Tales IIRC

That was what, like fifteen years ago? And didn't Agents of Gaming still have an active license at that time? Regardless too much time has passed for the old ships to be anything more than an inspiration for the new ships.


Its was a thing in ACTA (as many ships were) as well who had the licence and also I think JMS mentioned that it was from AOG so he was aware of and happy with their work. Its not beyond realms of possibility that they use some

Again, the age of the Agents of Gaming designs are a strike against them. At the most it will be an extensive update that just keeps some similarities to the original (e.g., the updated Enterprise in Discovery).


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/02 20:15:59


Post by: Mr Morden


Personally still waiting for the remake of Blakes 7 as well.....


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/02 22:14:13


Post by: SamusDrake


 Mr Morden wrote:
Personally still waiting for the remake of Blakes 7 as well.....


Blake's 7 is the tits.



B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/03 02:18:41


Post by: StygianBeach


I am a bit worried about skipping Sinclair, as that reveal that he was Valen was pretty epic back in the day.

I am optimistic for this remake, although I think the Dilgar may be required as an early antagonist.
Instead of being effectively wiped out they could be a waning empire that never recovered from losing to the Earth Alliance.

Instead of their Sun going supernova, their Sun is on a slow decline and will make their homeworld uninhabitable in x number of years and their colonies do not have the infrastructure to maintain their previous power.

They would be obvious baddies, which could also complicate the Narn vs Cetauri situation. Maybe even another ally for the Shadows or Vorlons?



B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/03 02:28:15


Post by: Vulcan


All of what I'm about to say is internet hearsay; bring the appropriate amount of salt.

Apparently the live-action segments of B5 were filmed in early high-definition. JMS had wanted the show to be in high def, but the digital effects company didn't want to upgrade their own capabilities for it. Understandable, at the time this would have been quite pricy.

So IN THEORY, if all this is true, a literal remake with upgraded high-definition effects but the original live shots should be not just easily done, but fairly cheap to do to boot.

Now having said THAT, it's clear this is not what's going on with this reboot. Just an interesting side-note from internet.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/03 03:10:14


Post by: warboss


 Vulcan wrote:
All of what I'm about to say is internet hearsay; bring the appropriate amount of salt.

Apparently the live-action segments of B5 were filmed in early high-definition. JMS had wanted the show to be in high def, but the digital effects company didn't want to upgrade their own capabilities for it. Understandable, at the time this would have been quite pricy.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon_5#Mastering_problems


FWIW, the wiki entry does a good job explaining it all.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/03 03:22:55


Post by: Voss


 StygianBeach wrote:
I am a bit worried about skipping Sinclair, as that reveal that he was Valen was pretty epic back in the day.

It was, but pretty much isn't repeatable for the same reason. Without a 'reveal' to speak of, its a paint by numbers plot rehash.

I am optimistic for this remake, although I think the Dilgar may be required as an early antagonist.
Instead of being effectively wiped out they could be a waning empire that never recovered from losing to the Earth Alliance.

Instead of their Sun going supernova, their Sun is on a slow decline and will make their homeworld uninhabitable in x number of years and their colonies do not have the infrastructure to maintain their previous power.

They would be obvious baddies, which could also complicate the Narn vs Cetauri situation. Maybe even another ally for the Shadows or Vorlons?

Eh. I suppose the Dilgar could be adjusted to be relevant, but the problem is _everyone_ hates them. The Babylon project as a diplomatic station pretty much depends on the clout Earth gained with the League of Non-aligned Worlds from basically saving Space League of Nations from the Space Nazis. Kicking off (again) with Babylon #5 (and the years passing for stations 1-4 to fail) should mean a real lockdown on the threat that brought everyone together in the first place. If they're still a credible threat, it puts Earth's political status on much shakier ground, likely not enough to pull the traditional 'great powers' to a jointly recognized diplomatic venture from the upstart species.

---
Also, from the summary bits, it seems likely that Interplanetary Expeditions (the 'questionably evil' space megacorp) is probably going to be the primary 'antagonist organization' prior to the Shadows themselves. We are likely to see more of what drove Morden, Anna Sheridan, and That Other Guy under the Shadow's influence. [Though granted wife number... 2? (the Locksley retcon made things weird) was more captured and enslaved rather than influenced]


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/03 09:18:39


Post by: StygianBeach


Voss wrote:

Eh. I suppose the Dilgar could be adjusted to be relevant, but the problem is _everyone_ hates them. The Babylon project as a diplomatic station pretty much depends on the clout Earth gained with the League of Non-aligned Worlds from basically saving Space League of Nations from the Space Nazis. Kicking off (again) with Babylon #5 (and the years passing for stations 1-4 to fail) should mean a real lockdown on the threat that brought everyone together in the first place. If they're still a credible threat, it puts Earth's political status on much shakier ground, likely not enough to pull the traditional 'great powers' to a jointly recognized diplomatic venture from the upstart species.


That is a good point about Earth not having as much political clout.

However I think you could take the story places similar to what happened to the German Empire after WW1, where you have Dilgar populations in non-Dilgar areas of space. Narn and Centauri forces could join the war late and thus have made a quick world grab. I reckon it could open a huge box of potential self contained story lines that could be told in 45 minutes as an A/B plot, as well as adding to the dynamics of diplomacy.

I hope the reboot gives us some small scales stories that are not in service to the main plot along the way.

Keep the big ship designs close to the originals, but any race that is not as advanced as the Mimbari should have similar fighter designs to the starfuries IMHO.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/03 10:36:40


Post by: Mr Morden


 StygianBeach wrote:
I am a bit worried about skipping Sinclair, as that reveal that he was Valen was pretty epic back in the day.

I am optimistic for this remake, although I think the Dilgar may be required as an early antagonist.
Instead of being effectively wiped out they could be a waning empire that never recovered from losing to the Earth Alliance.

Instead of their Sun going supernova, their Sun is on a slow decline and will make their homeworld uninhabitable in x number of years and their colonies do not have the infrastructure to maintain their previous power.

They would be obvious baddies, which could also complicate the Narn vs Cetauri situation. Maybe even another ally for the Shadows or Vorlons?



There is a great story on Space Battles which tells the story of the Dilgar War - highly recomended (I even did a pack for ACTA about it with the aid of the author and a model making friend - sadly departed) (it does over do the Nova Class quite abit but its a great character driven story)

Something like that would make a great epic story....the Vorlons, Minbari and the Drakh are also involved.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/03 11:07:17


Post by: Rolsheen


I'm quietly optimistic about this reboot, though having the original cast appear as anything but a pop up appearance is going to really jarring ( still can't forget Adam Savage in The Expanse ). If the execs leave Joe alone to do his vision we should get a decent show.
All I want is the ships mechanics to be left alone (rotating sections, Starfury engines) and the return of Jack.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/03 11:32:35


Post by: AduroT


 Rolsheen wrote:
( still can't forget Adam Savage in The Expanse )


Huh, I didn’t even notice him at the time. Had to look it up.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/03 14:24:07


Post by: Dysartes


 Rolsheen wrote:
All I want is the ships mechanics to be left alone (rotating sections, Starfury engines) and the return of Jack.

...Jack?


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/03 14:57:37


Post by: Hoitash


 Dysartes wrote:
 Rolsheen wrote:
All I want is the ships mechanics to be left alone (rotating sections, Starfury engines) and the return of Jack.

...Jack?


Spoiler:
Guy with a knife, liked to rip people. Got Touched by Vorlons.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/03 16:26:44


Post by: Mr Morden


 Hoitash wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Rolsheen wrote:
All I want is the ships mechanics to be left alone (rotating sections, Starfury engines) and the return of Jack.

...Jack?


Spoiler:
Guy with a knife, liked to rip people. Got Touched by Vorlons.


Yeah that was a nice opportunity to see more about the Vorlons nature/ methods


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/03 17:24:45


Post by: chaos0xomega


Be interesting to see if the Narn keep the T'loth class in the reboot.

In universe it was an older design formed through mix-n-match tech from a number of sources and was rendered obsolete once the G'Quan class came online and lead to a paradigm shift in Narn warship designs that followed through to t he rest of the fleet.

Out of universe it was a last minute creation that was bastarded together from existing assets because something was needed quickly and cheaply, and was never seen again after season 1 because they had time and budget to redo the narn ship assets for future seasons.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/04 14:53:24


Post by: Graphite


Interestingly, this just popped up on my news feed

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=babylon+5&language=en_GB&linkCode=ll2&linkId=0c8bced22eec9f4d9b253baf0a876853&tag=geekgalaxy-21&ref=as_li_ss_tl

Babylon 5, streaming via Amazon, but without Amazon Prime and ad supported.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This seems to be part of something called "IMDb TV" which, looking through the rest of their range seems to have.... variable quality.

Tarantino and Hitchcock rub shoulders with what appears to be utter, utter dreck.

But hey, it's free!


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/04 15:22:50


Post by: warboss


Yeah, it's owned by amazon and they put stuff up there temporarily. I've never actually measured but it seems like the stuff stays there (at least the things I've noticed) only for a month or couple of months for hot ticket items and then leaves rather than the more typical year to several years. It's free and ad supported. I watched the 1930's Flash Gordon serials on there and the DS9 recent documentary on there right now at least in the US. I didn't do an exhaustive search right now but I don't see b5 in the US (old grainy DVD quality or newer HD upres either) with a cursory search.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/05 15:05:55


Post by: Frazzled


 warhead01 wrote:
I really love B5. All I can do is wait and see how this new thing turns out. Being modern TV I will set my expectations to Zero. If I had my way it would be a further continuation of the story and not a reboot but whatever happens happens.
A recasting of Londo will have big boots to fill.


Now that I think about it, I would not necessarily assume they have the same characters.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/05 22:20:16


Post by: Cronch


Pretty sure Straczynski said it's not going to be a simple re-telling, and there's not going to be new Londo or G'Kar?

There probably will be Narn-Centauri conflict, but it will not be G'Kar-Mollari conflict.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 03:15:18


Post by: chaos0xomega


I haven't seen anything from him saying there wouldn't be a Londo or G'Kar.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 15:05:58


Post by: Cronch


Re-read the tweet, that was my overinterpretation, he just said that he can't continue the same story without the original actors. So yeah, i guess there could be NewKar and nuLondo!


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 16:42:06


Post by: chaos0xomega


Yeah, from that I would assume that G'Kar and Londo will still be around but with different actors and possibly different personalities/characteristics and narrative arcs before I assumed that they would be cut entirely. Its entirely possible that some less important or secondary characters do get cut/replaced/merged/combined (similar to BSG as noted previously), but I would also assume there to be a core roster of characters that are nigh-untouchable and essential to the story (i.e. it wouldn't be B5 without them) - G'Kar and Londo almost certainly qualify, as would Delenn, Sinclair/Sheridan (presumably merged into a single character this time around), Ivanova, and presumably Garibaldi as well (though he strikes me as being a bit less important/a bit more replaceable than some of the others). Presumably there will also be a Lyta Alexander/Talia Winters type character as well, though like Sheridan/Sinclair possibly combined into one - at this point though the identity of the character is a bit less important in the grand scheme of things and she/he could be named Alexander Winters for all that it would really matter, as ultimately Lyta/Talia were more of a plot device than anything else, as such the name might be a narrative give-away as to what might come in the future that would spoil some surprises (or get fans on the edge of their seats only to hit them with a twist).


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 17:09:35


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’d wager the Londo-G’Kar dynamic might be the straw that breaks this camel’s back.

Their early bickering and mutual antagonism was fairly central. Not just for Centauri and Narn as cultures, but for the wider feel of the show. And as we see a gradual, often grudging respect for each other begin to develop, it was a good cipher for Real World Politics, where diplomats might end up with a very different perspective to their governments in certain areas, without necessarily losing their loyalties.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 17:32:13


Post by: Voss


If I remember right, both Lyta and Talia left because the actresses had obligations elsewhere/took other jobs.

Patricia Tallman was in the pilot, but didn't stick around for the show, but was free to come back later after Andrea Thompson walked (apparently to CNN, for whatever reason).

I do feel like there was probably some hard feelings there, given that Talia's ultimate fate was to be both mindwiped and reprogrammed AND also butchered for spare parts off camera. (unless that was just a lie Bester made up to piss off Ivanova). The reprogramming was definitely part of the original plan, however, as Kosh made 'recordings' of her real persona 'for the future' in one of the odder episodes.

Apparently JMS liked the idea of spare backups for character concepts, which is why the show ended up with two potential super-telepaths. Which felt a little gimmicky, but worked out with the actresses moving on before things were done.

Though originally the 'mole' was going to be the XO from the pilot that Ivanova replaced.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 17:45:13


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Andrea Thompson was briefly married to Jerry Doyle, right? She might have left because that relationship crumbled? Jerry Doyle also had a lot to do with Michael O’Hare leaving.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 17:46:34


Post by: Overread


Yeah when you've a long running series you can never be sure that all your cast will stick around long term to retain their respective roles. Even ignoring drama and such you've got things like having a family; moving; sickness; changing circumstances etc... Loads of things that can result in them having to cut down on time or leave production.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 18:04:52


Post by: Tawnis


 kodos wrote:
why it has to be always a reboot

just make a sequel or prequel as the story is changed anyway


J. Michael Straczynski, has said that the reason he decided to do a re-boot instead of a sequel is because in the years since making B5, he has grown a lot as a writer and there are many things storytelling wise that he would alter or change to tell the same story in a much better way. As a writer myself, I totally understand and can relate to this. I've had finished work that people have loved, but I look back on it years later with how much I've improved as a writer and just think, "man, I could do that so much better now." If it were anyone else helming this, I've be super weary of a re-boot, but with Straczynski at the helm, I'm all for this.

Season 1 has not aged well at all (with the expection of a few standout episodes) and the CGI can't even be charitably called good until season 3 (though I think by that point it does still more-less hold up). I'd still love to see some of the great battles re-done with current CGI.

B5 is my favorite show ever (with only Stein's;Gate ever coming close to toppling it) but it's far from perfect and I'd love to see how it's done now. My one worry is the characters. They are IMHO what make the series timeless and many I can't imagine being played by anyone else. Mira Furlan, Peter Jurasik, Andreas Katsulas, Ed Wasser, Walter Koenig, so many iconic performances. This is the one thing a re-boot MUST nail down to be successful to fans of the original I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
If I remember right, both Lyta and Talia left because the actresses had obligations elsewhere/took other jobs.

Patricia Tallman was in the pilot, but didn't stick around for the show, but was free to come back later after Andrea Thompson walked (apparently to CNN, for whatever reason).

I do feel like there was probably some hard feelings there, given that Talia's ultimate fate was to be both mindwiped and reprogrammed AND also butchered for spare parts off camera. (unless that was just a lie Bester made up to piss off Ivanova). The reprogramming was definitely part of the original plan, however, as Kosh made 'recordings' of her real persona 'for the future' in one of the odder episodes.

Apparently JMS liked the idea of spare backups for character concepts, which is why the show ended up with two potential super-telepaths. Which felt a little gimmicky, but worked out with the actresses moving on before things were done.

Though originally the 'mole' was going to be the XO from the pilot that Ivanova replaced.


Similar thing with the original actress for Na'Toth, who was IMHO a much better fit for the role.

Huh, I didn't know that about the original mole, interesting.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 18:55:50


Post by: Cronch


Also, it's been now 27 years since the original series first aired. It's been 23 since the last episode aired. Releasing a sequel to a show overwhelming majority of it's potential audience never saw (or even heard of) would be...probably financially unwise? B5 is fantastic, but it's no Star Wars.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 19:07:57


Post by: Overread


Whilst Babalon 5 is really popular within geek circles, its one of those things that once you step outside of geeky groups the number of people who are even casually aware of it drops off dramatically.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 20:41:41


Post by: Strg Alt


 warboss wrote:
No, this is not an out of season April Fool's joke.

https://deadline.com/2021/09/babylon-5-series-reboot-j-michael-straczynski-development-cw-1234845022/

A new version of the Emmy-winning space opera television series Babylon 5 is in the works. The CW has put in development Babylon 5, described as a “from-the-ground-up reboot” of the critically acclaimed 1990s series, from original series creator J. Michael Straczynski and Warner Bros. Television.

Written by Straczynski, the reboot revolves around John Sheridan (played by Bruce Boxleitner in the original series), an Earthforce officer with a mysterious background, who is assigned to Babylon 5, a five-mile-long space station in neutral space, a port of call for travelers, smugglers, corporate explorers and alien diplomats at a time of uneasy peace and the constant threat of war. His arrival triggers a destiny beyond anything he could have imagined, as an exploratory Earth company accidentally triggers a conflict with a civilization a million years ahead of us, putting Sheridan and the rest of the B5 crew in the line of fire as the last, best hope for the survival of the human race.


I want to hope but I think I'm more afraid. Afraid that there will be a Season One prom episode and the feud between G'kar and Lando will be either an ex-lover's quarrel or an intergalactic love triangle with them and Delenn or possibly Vir.


I expect at least a single gender swap like Starbuck suffered in BSG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
I really enjoyed both DS9 and B5 and would enjoy seeing it come back or be redone.

I thnk the ships looked and look good - especially the more alien ones - Shadows, Minbari, Vorlons and the league races.

The risk is it could end up like the Battlestar remake - going wildly off-base to the original story and perhaps changing the very nature of core characters.


Having enjoyed BSG in its orginal form I absolutely loved the modern BSG - if they did a new B5 show to the same standard that would be fantastic.



Agreed. New B5 will need a leggy blonde though.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 20:59:04


Post by: Sterling191


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Andrea Thompson was briefly married to Jerry Doyle, right? She might have left because that relationship crumbled? Jerry Doyle also had a lot to do with Michael O’Hare leaving.


Michael O’hare left because he developed schizophrenia and was physically unable to continue in the role. JMS offered to delay shooting of S2 to give him a chance to try and get settled with his disease, but Michael didn’t want to put other working actors on the hook.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 21:05:33


Post by: Mr Morden


 Strg Alt wrote:
 warboss wrote:
No, this is not an out of season April Fool's joke.

https://deadline.com/2021/09/babylon-5-series-reboot-j-michael-straczynski-development-cw-1234845022/

A new version of the Emmy-winning space opera television series Babylon 5 is in the works. The CW has put in development Babylon 5, described as a “from-the-ground-up reboot” of the critically acclaimed 1990s series, from original series creator J. Michael Straczynski and Warner Bros. Television.

Written by Straczynski, the reboot revolves around John Sheridan (played by Bruce Boxleitner in the original series), an Earthforce officer with a mysterious background, who is assigned to Babylon 5, a five-mile-long space station in neutral space, a port of call for travelers, smugglers, corporate explorers and alien diplomats at a time of uneasy peace and the constant threat of war. His arrival triggers a destiny beyond anything he could have imagined, as an exploratory Earth company accidentally triggers a conflict with a civilization a million years ahead of us, putting Sheridan and the rest of the B5 crew in the line of fire as the last, best hope for the survival of the human race.


I want to hope but I think I'm more afraid. Afraid that there will be a Season One prom episode and the feud between G'kar and Lando will be either an ex-lover's quarrel or an intergalactic love triangle with them and Delenn or possibly Vir.


I expect at least a single gender swap like Starbuck suffered in BSG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
I really enjoyed both DS9 and B5 and would enjoy seeing it come back or be redone.

I thnk the ships looked and look good - especially the more alien ones - Shadows, Minbari, Vorlons and the league races.

The risk is it could end up like the Battlestar remake - going wildly off-base to the original story and perhaps changing the very nature of core characters.


Having enjoyed BSG in its orginal form I absolutely loved the modern BSG - if they did a new B5 show to the same standard that would be fantastic.



Agreed. New B5 will need a leggy blonde though.


No shortage of those! Tricia Helfer would work well


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 21:11:19


Post by: Strg Alt


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


Uhm, I think too that those characters depicted in the new BSG were more lifelike. Also never underestimate what it means to live 24/7 in the fear of being wiped out by merciless killer robots. People just become unstable and will suffer from a magnitude of mental problems.
I was honestly a bit surprised that ONLY a single character committed suicide on screen as such abysmal conditions usually cause a higher death rate.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/06 23:23:22


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Sterling191 wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Andrea Thompson was briefly married to Jerry Doyle, right? She might have left because that relationship crumbled? Jerry Doyle also had a lot to do with Michael O’Hare leaving.


Michael O’hare left because he developed schizophrenia and was physically unable to continue in the role. JMS offered to delay shooting of S2 to give him a chance to try and get settled with his disease, but Michael didn’t want to put other working actors on the hook.


My understanding was that Doyle kept antagonizing O’Hare, exacerbating his condition, tried to get O’Hare fired and threatened to leave the show if O’Hare didn’t.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 04:25:26


Post by: Vulcan


 Strg Alt wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
If you thought the characters in nBSG were just normal, flawed people, please get out of whatever situation you are trapped in. They were all awful, awful people. If I knew normal people like them, I would cut them out of my life. In fact, I did that anyway with the fictional jerks.

I disturbs keep greatly that fiction has become so pointlessly dark and gritty that the audience can mistake self-destructive jerkasses for normal and edgy for mature. Is there an “Overton Window” for how people view society and human interaction? I feel like this show was part of a massive shift in that window since the early 2000’s. It’s messed up.


Uhm, I think too that those characters depicted in the new BSG were more lifelike. Also never underestimate what it means to live 24/7 in the fear of being wiped out by merciless killer robots. People just become unstable and will suffer from a magnitude of mental problems.
I was honestly a bit surprised that ONLY a single character committed suicide on screen as such abysmal conditions usually cause a higher death rate.


Perhaps a spin-off thread is better than derailing this one yet again?


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 07:16:16


Post by: Jadenim


There’s no need for any gender swaps in B5, because it had plenty of decent female characters to begin with. Now it will be interesting to see who gets cast, because there’s actually a lot of the roles that are gender neutral, so there could be some shuffling (I believe in the pilot the XO was male and the Doctor female, for example). It could actually be a useful way to help break the link / comparisons to the previous cast.

Off the top of my head, the only two that need to be a specific gender are Londo and G’Kar; Londo because the Centauri Empire being a Roman style absolute patriarchy is kind of integral to their whole feel and storyline and G’Kar because if he’s not male the Londo-G’Kar storyline would become real weird and creepy.

As for leggy blonde’s, I don’t think JMS is that kind of writer / producer, but it does raise an interesting question; the original series was very limited by being a mainstream US network show, as to how dark or naughty it could get. With modern norms, it’s possible that it could be made with more mature content, which would real suit some of the darker elements of the story.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 08:19:19


Post by: Cronch


And who knows, maybe we wouldn't even have to Bury Our Gays this time


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 11:30:08


Post by: Flinty


 Jadenim wrote:
There’s no need for any gender swaps in B5, because it had plenty of decent female characters to begin with. Now it will be interesting to see who gets cast, because there’s actually a lot of the roles that are gender neutral, so there could be some shuffling (I believe in the pilot the XO was male and the Doctor female, for example). It could actually be a useful way to help break the link / comparisons to the previous cast.

Off the top of my head, the only two that need to be a specific gender are Londo and G’Kar; Londo because the Centauri Empire being a Roman style absolute patriarchy is kind of integral to their whole feel and storyline and G’Kar because if he’s not male the Londo-G’Kar storyline would become real weird and creepy.

As for leggy blonde’s, I don’t think JMS is that kind of writer / producer, but it does raise an interesting question; the original series was very limited by being a mainstream US network show, as to how dark or naughty it could get. With modern norms, it’s possible that it could be made with more mature content, which would real suit some of the darker elements of the story.


Hah! Londo used his genitals to cheat at cards, and interspecies relationships were rife. I recall G'Kar being particularly prolific with anything with a pulse in the earlier seasons.

However, I would kind of hope it doesn't go down the Game of Thrones route.

I agree that the original series had a great set of roles for all species, races and genders. I think its already well set up to get the best actor/actress for a particular role, rather than needing to crowbar anything in as such.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 13:38:44


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Tawnis wrote:
 kodos wrote:
why it has to be always a reboot

just make a sequel or prequel as the story is changed anyway


J. Michael Straczynski, has said that the reason he decided to do a re-boot instead of a sequel is because in the years since making B5, he has grown a lot as a writer and there are many things storytelling wise that he would alter or change to tell the same story in a much better way. As a writer myself, I totally understand and can relate to this. I've had finished work that people have loved, but I look back on it years later with how much I've improved as a writer and just think, "man, I could do that so much better now." If it were anyone else helming this, I've be super weary of a re-boot, but with Straczynski at the helm, I'm all for this.


Yeah, its incredible how many people don't comprehend that there is no value in a spin-off/sequel/prequel of a franchise that was never that popular to begin with and has effectively been dead for 20-30 years, and that likewise with half the original cast dead and the other half in middle/old-age there are severe limits as to what can be done as a continuation of the original story. Thats before you get into the fact that with 20 years of more exprience, better technology, bigger budgets, and more creative independence, etc. JMS wants a second chance to make the show better than it was before.

My understanding was that Doyle kept antagonizing O’Hare, exacerbating his condition, tried to get O’Hare fired and threatened to leave the show if O’Hare didn’t.


More or less accurate - though to be clear Doyles desire to get O'Hare removed from the show was supposedly a sort of proto-MeToo thing (ironic considering Doyles personal political beliefs) - evidently O'Hare harassed the various women on the cast and set (including punching a female actress and telling an 18 year old hair/makeup intern that he played with himself at night while thinking about her when he was lonely). I'm sure theres a he-said/she-said thing to this and that some of these stories are exaggerated.

Off the top of my head, the only two that need to be a specific gender are Londo and G’Kar; Londo because the Centauri Empire being a Roman style absolute patriarchy is kind of integral to their whole feel and storyline and G’Kar because if he’s not male the Londo-G’Kar storyline would become real weird and creepy.


You're assuming a lot here, theres no guarantee the Centauri remaining a Roman style patriarchal monarchy and that the G'Kar/Londo dynamic will remain as it was. Rebranding/redesigning the Centauri to be less kitschy is absolutely something that has a high probability of occurring and I would be surprised if this element of the show remains unchanged.
It would also be very easy to rewrite the Londo/G'Kar storyline in a way that wasn't weird or creepy without making it weirdly sexual or romantic - and in fact if they kept Londo as a womanizing horndog type I could see that playing off well against a "feminist strong woman" type G'Kar character (think Admiral Cain from BSG as a good example) - hell they could even leave G'Kar as a womanizing horndog too and it will still work (and be true to the original character lol).


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 18:12:55


Post by: Strg Alt


 Jadenim wrote:
There’s no need for any gender swaps in B5, because it had plenty of decent female characters to begin with. Now it will be interesting to see who gets cast, because there’s actually a lot of the roles that are gender neutral, so there could be some shuffling (I believe in the pilot the XO was male and the Doctor female, for example). It could actually be a useful way to help break the link / comparisons to the previous cast.

Off the top of my head, the only two that need to be a specific gender are Londo and G’Kar; Londo because the Centauri Empire being a Roman style absolute patriarchy is kind of integral to their whole feel and storyline and G’Kar because if he’s not male the Londo-G’Kar storyline would become real weird and creepy.

As for leggy blonde’s, I don’t think JMS is that kind of writer / producer, but it does raise an interesting question; the original series was very limited by being a mainstream US network show, as to how dark or naughty it could get. With modern norms, it’s possible that it could be made with more mature content, which would real suit some of the darker elements of the story.


I wouldn't expect anything to be set in stone apart from the action taking place on a space station and the Vorlons and Shadows showing up at some point. So anything goes.
Therefore the Centauri Empire could be revamped as a matriarchy and Londo and G'kar gender swapped. This would of course cause a lot of drama in the fan base like Starbuck's gender swap did at the time but the actress of Kara Trace performed well. So if they should find two suitable actresses it could be accomplished.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 18:52:26


Post by: Tawnis


 Mr Morden wrote:


No shortage of those! Tricia Helfer would work well


I could see her being a pretty solid choice for Talia Winters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:


You're assuming a lot here, theres no guarantee the Centauri remaining a Roman style patriarchal monarchy and that the G'Kar/Londo dynamic will remain as it was. Rebranding/redesigning the Centauri to be less kitschy is absolutely something that has a high probability of occurring and I would be surprised if this element of the show remains unchanged.
It would also be very easy to rewrite the Londo/G'Kar storyline in a way that wasn't weird or creepy without making it weirdly sexual or romantic - and in fact if they kept Londo as a womanizing horndog type I could see that playing off well against a "feminist strong woman" type G'Kar character (think Admiral Cain from BSG as a good example) - hell they could even leave G'Kar as a womanizing horndog too and it will still work (and be true to the original character lol).


While they could totally go that route, I think if they kept it as is, it would be a great way to give Na'Toth an antagonist to play off of. She was (especially in the first season) very much the epitome of the strong woman (but not in a cheesy way). It was a real shame her character got sidelined when the original actress left. (Though to be fair, while Mary Kay Adams was fine, she didn't have the same flair for the character so I can see why that happened).


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 19:21:00


Post by: kodos


chaos0xomega wrote:
 Tawnis wrote:
 kodos wrote:
why it has to be always a reboot

just make a sequel or prequel as the story is changed anyway


J. Michael Straczynski, has said that the reason he decided to do a re-boot instead of a sequel is because in the years since making B5, he has grown a lot as a writer and there are many things storytelling wise that he would alter or change to tell the same story in a much better way. As a writer myself, I totally understand and can relate to this. I've had finished work that people have loved, but I look back on it years later with how much I've improved as a writer and just think, "man, I could do that so much better now." If it were anyone else helming this, I've be super weary of a re-boot, but with Straczynski at the helm, I'm all for this.

Yeah, its incredible how many people don't comprehend that there is no value in a spin-off/sequel/prequel of a franchise that was never that popular to begin with and has effectively been dead for 20-30 years, and that likewise with half the original cast dead and the other half in middle/old-age there are severe limits as to what can be done as a continuation of the original story. Thats before you get into the fact that with 20 years of more exprience, better technology, bigger budgets, and more creative independence, etc. JMS wants a second chance to make the show better than it was before.

I am well aware that the show was less popular in the US than in Europe, and while the last 2 B5 Cons in Germany were canceled because of Covid, I would not call the franchise dead

and even with better technology, bigger budgets and more experience, there are not many shows that succeeded with a re-boot as most try to get current politics in to make a point which limits them to a specific audience and often don't age very well

so this might be ending up as a much bigger show with the first run in the US than the original was, but if it gets the cult status in Europe (with regular TV re-runs) like the original is a different story


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 19:33:50


Post by: Cronch


I would not call the franchise dead

It's super dead in general public consciousness. It's possibly as dead as Cameron's Avatar.

All jokes aside, the small group of fans it might have in Europe (as compared to nearly none in the US) would not be enough to keep a space opera remotely profitable, which is ultimately the goal of any show. And of course it'll be hard for the reboot to be more current-politics than the original seeing as we are still dealing with exactly the same 80s and 90s issues that B5 depicted in sci-fi setting.

But yeah, you want the show to appeal to new fans, not hope whatever remains of the fanbase is enough to carry it.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 19:42:00


Post by: chaos0xomega


There have been no new B5 episodes or spin-off series, no video games, no novels or comics, no films, etc., in about 20 years, tabletop gaming for the series went out of publication almost 15 years ago, and with that the B5 license has gone dormant (to the extent that Warner Bros does not have a licensing team for the property and is thus unable to issue licenses for it). For most of hte past decade + is been almost completely unavailable to stream or severely limited in streaming to select episodes/seasons on select platforms.

Its dead, Jim. The fact that theres a cult fanbase in Europe is irrelevant.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 20:00:37


Post by: Strg Alt


The same was the case with BSG. Doesn't matter if it's dead as long as the reboot is done well and the plot addresses themes of today. New people will begin to watch the show.

Though one thing is worth mentioning: I am not remembering B5 too well but for the sake of gaining a new audience the devs should limit the amount of silly alien designs, if there were any.
I still remember the actor of Cpt. Adama say this in an interview: "As soon as the devs get the silly idea of introducing aliens into BSG I am out. I don't care how they do it but I won't be around anymore. Adama will just suffer a stroke on screen and I am gone."




B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 20:01:26


Post by: Tawnis


I wouldn't say it's alive in terms of having a thriving fanbase, but at least here in Canada, when I talk to people about sci fi shows, almost everyone has heard of B5 and most have seen it. So I would say it's I guess alive but not active, in the sense that I think there is certainly a market for it's return in whatever form it takes.

Also, (and I know that this is taking number from almost 2 decades ago) if you look at how many people watched Legend of the Ragers when it aired and consider that it aired at the same time as the freaking Superbowl, that should tell you how large of a surprisingly dedicated fanbase B5 actually has in the states.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 20:12:37


Post by: trexmeyer


I don't think this a reboot is a good idea from a storytelling perspective. The main plotline of B5 is fundamentally flawed. There is no possible satisfactory resolution to the Shadow War. The primary issue is that the entire show is built upon The Shadow-Vorlon conflict. It is a conflict that would work fine in a fantasy setting, but it does not translate well over into a scifi one for many reasons. The most frustrating of these is that The First Ones are supposed to be millions of years old, gods that walk the stars, and yet they still get killed by nukes and eventually give up when Sheridan calls them out on their bs. Maybe it can be handled better, but I don't think anyone alive has the imagination to depict such races without pissing all over the very concept of verisimilitude.









B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 20:28:39


Post by: kodos


by that margin the BSG franchise is dead as well

no re-run after the initial one in TV, not available on streaming, all the games available here went out of print long ago etc.

I guess this is why they are talking about a reboot of the reboot now


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/07 20:59:29


Post by: Tawnis


trexmeyer wrote:
I don't think this a reboot is a good idea from a storytelling perspective. The main plotline of B5 is fundamentally flawed. There is no possible satisfactory resolution to the Shadow War. The primary issue is that the entire show is built upon The Shadow-Vorlon conflict. It is a conflict that would work fine in a fantasy setting, but it does not translate well over into a scifi one for many reasons. The most frustrating of these is that The First Ones are supposed to be millions of years old, gods that walk the stars, and yet they still get killed by nukes and eventually give up when Sheridan calls them out on their bs. Maybe it can be handled better, but I don't think anyone alive has the imagination to depict such races without pissing all over the very concept of verisimilitude.


Don't get me wrong, B5 isn't a perfect show, one of the reasons JMS wants to do a re-boot is that he thinks that he can tell it much better now. However, I very much disagree with your assessment of the main plotline.

To site your specific examples, one of the fundamental rules of the universe that Lorien explains is that everything must be able to die. You drop a nuke on something, it still dies. From the way B5 presents things it's like there is a technological plateau (much like I imagine would exists IRL if we ever advanced that far) where you can only get so advanced. Also, by your example, when Sheridan dropped that nuke, it was amplified by a ship that was partially Vorlon, so fight fire with fire kinda thing. It took every single race in the galaxy (minus the Humans and Centari) throwing pretty much every ship they could spare into a joint fleet to essentially just bloody the Shadow's nose at the end of season 3. If that doesn't speak to how outclassed they are, I don't know what does?

As for the second bit, it's not that Sherridan called them out on the BS, I mean he did do that, but if was that he backed them into an ideological corner. Both of their beliefs were that their way was the right way and that they alone could properly nurture the lesser races; it's the entire reason why they fought. By essentially playing a galactic game of chicken, he said that they would all rather die than follow either of their examples. When they tried to silence Sherridan, assuming it would make the others back down, the entire fleet formed up around the White Star taking the hits for them and giving their lives for the cause. That's what finally convinced them that Sherridan did in fact speak for essentially everyone and that there would be no way to push their agenda without killing basically all the lesser races, which defeats the whole purpose of their roles of guardians to guide and nurture the lesser races. It was then finally Lorien, their former guide and mentor that told them he faced a similar choice when guiding them, and as he once stepped aside to allow them to grow on their own, so to must they for those they guided. That's what finally did it and I for one found that a fantastic bit of storytelling.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/08 03:13:21


Post by: chaos0xomega


 kodos wrote:
by that margin the BSG franchise is dead as well

no re-run after the initial one in TV, not available on streaming, all the games available here went out of print long ago etc.

I guess this is why they are talking about a reboot of the reboot now


Thank you for proving my point? BSG was rebooted in the mid-2000s for this exact reason. Note that its currently *not* a dead franchise as there has been a renewed licensing push over the last 3-5 years to tey to keep BSG in the public consciousness, and the upcoming "reboot" is apparently set in Ron Moores reboot timeline/universe


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/08 07:05:53


Post by: tneva82


trexmeyer wrote:
I don't think this a reboot is a good idea from a storytelling perspective. The main plotline of B5 is fundamentally flawed. There is no possible satisfactory resolution to the Shadow War. The primary issue is that the entire show is built upon The Shadow-Vorlon conflict. It is a conflict that would work fine in a fantasy setting, but it does not translate well over into a scifi one for many reasons. The most frustrating of these is that The First Ones are supposed to be millions of years old, gods that walk the stars, and yet they still get killed by nukes and eventually give up when Sheridan calls them out on their bs. Maybe it can be handled better, but I don't think anyone alive has the imagination to depict such races without pissing all over the very concept of verisimilitude.




They left because they had 2 options. Leave knowing they archieved their mission or don't leave, go nuts, wipe everybody, fail on their mission and lose ltheir purpose.

They remembered what they had forgotten. Why they had remained for in the first place. Help younger races to evolve to level they can be trusted to go on their own way. Not wipe them out. Had they not left option was basically extermination and...then they fail their job.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/08 15:24:27


Post by: trexmeyer


And that's an unsatisfactory conclusion to a philosophical conflict with depth on par to a YA novel.

The entire concept of "helping the younger races" reeks of colonialism. It sounds like a line plucked from The White Man's Burden. Maybe JMS intended for the audience to pick up on that but I vaguely remember Sheridan and Delenn discussing how they were stepping into the Shadow/Vorlon role immediately following the conflict.

The very idea of needing a guide implies that the the one being guided is lacking in some capacity. On a micro scale, such as a tour guide, teachers, things of that nature, it's not an issue, but when applied to whole races...well it's not great.

That's not to say that the show is bad. I've watched it through at least a half dozen times. I wouldn't do that if I disliked the show. The depiction of EarthForce is the best depiction of a military I've seen in a SciFi setting (along with S:AAB and BSG). The Psi Corps and most things concerning telepaths are interesting and led me to read The Demolish Man (which has some good concepts and a very creepy romance). The political aspects are largely well done. The religious elements of the show are handled fairly well, especially with G'Kar. Even the Kosh-Sheridan relationship is well-written IMO. Hell, as hammy as it is, the Valen reveal is still one my favorite moments across all media, on screen or in print. It's a good show.

If JMS can fix the Shadow-Vorlon conflict it will be even better, but I don't think he can. B5 is his magnum opus. Nothing else that he has done, so far as I am aware, is even close to the same quality.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/08 16:24:49


Post by: Mr Morden


tneva82 wrote:
trexmeyer wrote:
I don't think this a reboot is a good idea from a storytelling perspective. The main plotline of B5 is fundamentally flawed. There is no possible satisfactory resolution to the Shadow War. The primary issue is that the entire show is built upon The Shadow-Vorlon conflict. It is a conflict that would work fine in a fantasy setting, but it does not translate well over into a scifi one for many reasons. The most frustrating of these is that The First Ones are supposed to be millions of years old, gods that walk the stars, and yet they still get killed by nukes and eventually give up when Sheridan calls them out on their bs. Maybe it can be handled better, but I don't think anyone alive has the imagination to depict such races without pissing all over the very concept of verisimilitude.




They left because they had 2 options. Leave knowing they archieved their mission or don't leave, go nuts, wipe everybody, fail on their mission and lose ltheir purpose.

They remembered what they had forgotten. Why they had remained for in the first place. Help younger races to evolve to level they can be trusted to go on their own way. Not wipe them out. Had they not left option was basically extermination and...then they fail their job.


Well actually kill just the fleet that was with Sheriden and reset the board.....was a possibility - no one would know what happened The rest of the races would just carry on without them. Earth and the Centauri would have - well if the Vorlons did not destroy the latter. The other races would fight amongst themselves - Shadows would be happy.

It was a suprisingly non violent ending which is a interesting and unusual resolution.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/08 16:40:50


Post by: chaos0xomega


The entire concept of "helping the younger races" reeks of colonialism. It sounds like a line plucked from The White Man's Burden. Maybe JMS intended for the audience to pick up on that but I vaguely remember Sheridan and Delenn discussing how they were stepping into the Shadow/Vorlon role immediately following the conflict.

The very idea of needing a guide implies that the the one being guided is lacking in some capacity. On a micro scale, such as a tour guide, teachers, things of that nature, it's not an issue, but when applied to whole races...well it's not great.



Yes, that was more or less literally the entire point of the show.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/08 16:59:21


Post by: Tawnis


trexmeyer wrote:
And that's an unsatisfactory conclusion to a philosophical conflict with depth on par to a YA novel.

The entire concept of "helping the younger races" reeks of colonialism. It sounds like a line plucked from The White Man's Burden. Maybe JMS intended for the audience to pick up on that but I vaguely remember Sheridan and Delenn discussing how they were stepping into the Shadow/Vorlon role immediately following the conflict.

The very idea of needing a guide implies that the the one being guided is lacking in some capacity. On a micro scale, such as a tour guide, teachers, things of that nature, it's not an issue, but when applied to whole races...well it's not great.



The way the Vorlons and Shadows handled it, for sure, it was all about pushing their own agendas and beliefs onto the other races. That's why they were the "bad guys".

Yes, Sherridan and Delen did say that, but the implication was that they weren't going to do it like the Vorlons and Shadows did, but left the details up to the imagination of the audience which I really liked. I got the implication that it would be somewhere between Star Trek's non-interference and the Vorlon / Shadows direct meddling.

Well, up and coming civilizations can be. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it should be done colonial style by any means, but if you saw a pre-space flight civilization about to nuke themselves into oblivion, wouldn't you want to try and prevent it, or should nature just take its course? Or if a newer space fairing race was developing one of those crazy Vorlon gates from Thirdspace, that seems like something they should be guided away from.

To me, it was about education and sharing of knowledge and understanding without trying to convert/assimilate, essentially the entire purpose of Babylon 5 itself, but on a much larger scale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:


Well actually kill just the fleet that was with Sheriden and reset the board.....was a possibility - no one would know what happened The rest of the races would just carry on without them. Earth and the Centauri would have - well if the Vorlons did not destroy the latter. The other races would fight amongst themselves - Shadows would be happy.

It was a suprisingly non violent ending which is a interesting and unusual resolution.


It's possible that it could have worked out that way, but it was a gamble. Sheridan was working with the government leaders of most of the races in the galaxy. They all knew what was going on, and if they chose to follow the cause after Sheridan was martyred, the Vorlons and Shadows were screwed. They may not have, but it was a big risk. Yeah the Centari and Earth wouldn't have been involved, but since they were both direct puppets for the Shadows, the Vorlons would have taken them out anyway. Centari Prime was seconds away from destruction before the Vorlons were called off.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/08 17:51:47


Post by: tneva82


trexmeyer wrote:
And that's an unsatisfactory conclusion to a philosophical conflict with depth on par to a YA novel.

The entire concept of "helping the younger races" reeks of colonialism. It sounds like a line plucked from The White Man's Burden. Maybe JMS intended for the audience to pick up on that but I vaguely remember Sheridan and Delenn discussing how they were stepping into the Shadow/Vorlon role immediately following the conflict.


The point was that the shadows&vorlon's aren't some infalliable good guys...

So what would be better ending for the war? Don't even dare to say military win. That would be laughably bad solution. Flat out silly, stupid, idiotic noob solution. Winning war by guns was never option. It's just not possible when you are so much inferior. Millions of years of evolution has it's advantages. Younger races were outclassed AND outnumbered. It's not even matter of "well they have better tech, we have more ships". They had better tech AND more ships.

Gap in military power was so laughably big it wasn't even funny. As is shadows could have always won war and wiped out but since that wasn't the goal...

The whole frigging point was that shadows and vorlons had lost their way and were the "bad guys". They were the colonialists. They were the "shiny light bringing civilization to the savages". That was the whole god damn POINT.

It reeks of colonialism BECAUSE IT WAS MEANT TO BE! That was the whole damn point of it. They were not guys you should have sympathy for. They had lost the plot and had stayed involved in affairs of younger races far far far FAR longer than they should have been.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/08 18:51:41


Post by: Mr Morden


I would agree that the only possible military solution would be via the other First Ones but once they dealt with the Vorlon Planet Killer they seemed happy to see how it played out?



B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/08 20:32:07


Post by: tneva82


Without pulling some retcon other first ones weren't answer either. While strong they were still younger(shadows were oldest) and...well most of first ones had already left. Shadows and vorlons were exception in that stayed in numbers.

Couple younger first ones stayed but hardly enough to win war.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/08 22:28:53


Post by: Cronch


They had lost the plot and had stayed involved in affairs of younger races far far far FAR longer than they should have been.

I imagine the point is, they shouldn't have meddled into the affairs of the younger races at all. No one asked them, and no one gave them the moral right to do so. It would be really interesting to see if this is picked up in the new version or plays out the same.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/09 02:27:12


Post by: Vulcan


tneva82 wrote:
Without pulling some retcon other first ones weren't answer either. While strong they were still younger(shadows were oldest) and...well most of first ones had already left. Shadows and vorlons were exception in that stayed in numbers.

Couple younger first ones stayed but hardly enough to win war.


Ah... I recall this differently.

The Vorlons and Shadows were the youngest of the First Ones, That's why they stayed behind when the rest left, because they hadn't quite made it to the level of enlightenment the older First Ones had.

And given the way the few remaining First Ones scythed through the Vorlon fleet, I would argue that they could indeed have taken both the Shadows and Vorlons ALL the way out had they chosen to do so. That the First Ones chose mercy and forgiveness for their younger sibling's failure just emphasizes their enlightened state.

But it's possible I misremember this, so take that with the appropriate dose of salt.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/09 03:33:59


Post by: chaos0xomega


Yeah, I recall what Vulcan did - Vorlons/Shadows amongst the youngest of the First Ones and not nearly as advanced as the other few who remained in the galaxy.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/09 08:41:20


Post by: Mr Morden


Vorlons are the youngest, Shadows are the oldest and never really part of the First Ones...
"being old when even the Ancients were young"


They attacked them all in ancient times and were only defeated by the entire community but were allowed to continue existance via Lorien - hence their reverence for him.

Both of them are disliked by the others for different reasons - the Vorlons for their arrogance and rigid beliefs and of course for nearly killing everything via Thirdspace.

The Shadows because they are considered borderline or in fact insane.

Delenn tells Sheridan a "Vorlon edited version" of this in the show

I quite like this quote from the rpg:

The Vorlons are the priggish, anal-retentive, overly nervous ones who hide behind the letter of the rules and run to teacher whenever there is any trouble. The Shadows are the freaky hillbilly cousins who no one really likes and who have picked up some wierd religious beliefs.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/11 21:45:46


Post by: Tamereth


Huge trepidation about this. B5 is possibly the best sci-fi show ever. Given how badly reboots / sequels of every thing else have gone over the last ten years I have fear.

But the original was a flawed masterpiece. It was written as a five season show, but they were told season 4 would be the last. So they rushed the ending abandoning several story threads. It then got renewed for the 5 at the last minute and they had to take those loose threads and spin them out to the fifth season.
And as others have said season 1 is poor watching it again now, so skipping the story to nearer the start of season 2 to begin with wouldn’t be the worst thing.

Londo and G’kar are arguably the most important characters, so their recasting will be everything.

While the originals CGI is a bit lacking there are some wonderful 4K redos on you tube. I hope they keep the same aesthetics for the new show.

And the fact JMS is at the helm is the best news so far about this.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/12 02:32:11


Post by: trexmeyer


The original plan that I've seen floating around is very different from what B5 became. Sheridan replacing Sinclair changed everything.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/12 09:16:24


Post by: StygianBeach


trexmeyer wrote:
The original plan that I've seen floating around is very different from what B5 became. Sheridan replacing Sinclair changed everything.


Yeah, that is one thing I am worried about. Having the characters merged back together feels like a disappointing alternative.

What was the plan for Valen if you remember?

I remember reading something that said that Sinclairs and Delenns son would be Valen, and he would have adventures in the past using B4 as his space ship. Probably just made up though.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/12 10:10:19


Post by: kodos


for the Original script:
Spoiler:
Delenn was male and still is for most of the season 1 scripts
the Minbari war stopped because a prophet saw an important role for humans in the war to come and that there is a prophecy about chosen one to re-new the Minbari race
with the prophecy written in old language it could be read in different ways and some believe the chosen one will destroy the Minbari (Delenn believes in Sinclair being the savior and decide to change race and gender to fulfill the prophecy and have a child with him)

Vorlons were Lizards with a violent society (it was normal to kill the superior to advance in rank)

the armour/weapon that takes over people was supposed to be the intro to Shadow technology

Narn - Centaury war going from Season 2-3 with the Shadows starting more proxy wars in Season 3

Shadows manage to destroy the Vorlon ship with their civilization on it and blame B5, Minbari Warrior Caste re-starts war against Earth and attack B5 which is destroyed end (prophecy scene that was in the show)

Survivors flee to Draal and go back in time to get B4 from the past and move it to the future/present (while they all age 10 years because of the failed stabalizer including their Son)
with B4 is renamed Babylon Prime and used to travel around to find allies against the Shadows to create the Interstellar Alliance
first ones to join are the Narn resistance and Londo helps them after he discovers that he is free if he gets the Keeper drunk

Delenn and Sinclair are captured on Centaurie Prime but Londo frees them and ask Gkar to kill him before the Keeper wakes up and the Shadows find out

Vir becomes Emperor, with the help of the Alliance Earth and Centauri Prime are freed and the Shadows defeated

Sinclair’s son become the president of the Alliance, Delenn becomes leader of Minbar and Sinclair retire.
Last shot of the show is Sinclair fishing.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/12 10:31:46


Post by: MarkNorfolk


Interesting. I remember reading that the original arc for Sinclair was to make it to the end of the series, but instead of just being 'taken to the Rim' as Sheriden did, that's when he makes the trip back to the previous Shadow War and become Valen.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/12 17:53:05


Post by: Voss


MarkNorfolk wrote:
Interesting. I remember reading that the original arc for Sinclair was to make it to the end of the series, but instead of just being 'taken to the Rim' as Sheriden did, that's when he makes the trip back to the previous Shadow War and become Valen.


That seems likely. There is certainly set up for that in the first season, during the 'religious cultural exchange' episode, where someone (I forget who) tells Sinclair that depending on how seriously folks choose to view the Minbari berry-eating (Rebirth?) ceremony, he just got married (to Delenn being implied).

Nothing about what took Sheridan to Zha'ha'doom was particularly rooted in his character. 'Anna Sheridan' could have been Sinclair's sister, wife, first cousin or whatever.
Having the savior be the human 'religious caste' character rather than the 'warrior caste' captain would have probably fit the tone a bit better, though it would've come off even more preachy and messianic, which the show didn't really need.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/12 17:56:34


Post by: Jadenim


I think this is a promising sign for the reboot; that synopsis is clearly Babylon 5, but very different to the version we got. That gives me confidence that JMS can do a new show that is new and different, but keep the same essence. Whether it succeeds is to be seen, but there is hope!


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/12 18:48:37


Post by: Tawnis


A lot of what you're all saying about the original story makes a lot of sense, and does jive with the facts we know about the re-writes that had to happen to the original series. So, this makes me curious, does anyone in the know ... know how that original deal with "The One" went?

I really liked the take on it actually being three based around the rule of three in Mimbari culture, with Sinclair being past, Delen being present, and Sheridan future. So if Sinclair and Sheridan had been the same character, who would have been the third "The One"?


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/12 19:19:03


Post by: Duskweaver


 Tawnis wrote:
So if Sinclair and Sheridan had been the same character, who would have been the third "The One"?

Their son, presumably?


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/12 20:05:16


Post by: kodos


 Tawnis wrote:
I really liked the take on it actually being three based around the rule of three in Mimbari culture, with Sinclair being past, Delen being present, and Sheridan future. So if Sinclair and Sheridan had been the same character, who would have been the third "The One"?

There was none. That there are 3 "The One" instead of just 1 was simply to give Sinclairs Arc a conclusion that fit into the story that was already done in first season.

The "plan" was that there ist jut the one, who is Sinclair that made it possible to win the war, without having anything to do with Valen or any wars in the past


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/19 11:02:55


Post by: Pacific


What I will say is that reading this thread makes me want to watch the original series again!

So something good will come out of this irregardless


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/19 13:07:56


Post by: gorgon


I tried watching some episodes recently because of this thread...and great googly moogly the acting and script can really be painful at times. I can look past the bad CGI and cheap sets, but awkwardly-delivered lines of cheesy dialogue are another thing. I still appreciate the overall story, the ship designs, certain actors, etc., but it feels like very dated television in ways that BSG just ten years later doesn't and likely still won't ten years from now.

I can see why JMS is thinking "I'd like to give that another shot".


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/19 13:49:53


Post by: Slipspace


I think some of the early guest stars and supporting cast were pretty poor. It probably wasn't helped by the network insisting on season 1 including more traditional episodic content rather than the grand arc storytelling JMS wanted to do. You can really see JMS develop as a writer through the run of the show as the dialogue does get better later on.

I'm not sure why but TV of that era does seem to have dated much worse then shows even a few years later.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/19 15:52:50


Post by: Aash


I think the big benefit this might have over the original is filler episodes.

With tv not needing to stick to 22 episodes per season anymore and streaking series often 6-10 episodes long, the story could be told without the filler.

I rewatched B5 a couple of years ago and there are just so so many episodes with no bearing on the overarching plot, or maybe only a single scene or a couple of lines of dialogue.

It was ahead if it’s time with regard to ongoing storytelling in TV, but by modern standards it is very much very much self-contained episodes.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/19 16:31:52


Post by: Tawnis


Aash wrote:
I think the big benefit this might have over the original is filler episodes.

With tv not needing to stick to 22 episodes per season anymore and streaking series often 6-10 episodes long, the story could be told without the filler.

I rewatched B5 a couple of years ago and there are just so so many episodes with no bearing on the overarching plot, or maybe only a single scene or a couple of lines of dialogue.

It was ahead if it’s time with regard to ongoing storytelling in TV, but by modern standards it is very much very much self-contained episodes.


I both agree and disagree with this.

For season 1 especially, and some in 2, there were episodes that just didn't need to be there, ones like TKO that both didn't fit into the overall plot and were just pretty meh in general. However, I think by season 3, he'd figured out the best way to use "filler" to actually make the story and universe richer.

Just because an episode doesn't directly connect to the overarching plot, doesn't mean that it doesn't build on the characters and their relationships or build up the world they live in. Some good examples of this come in early season three. The episode with the bomber was very stand alone and it was fine, but the scenes with Londo and G'Kar trapped in the elevator were fantastic, subverting the standard tropes of that situation and showing both just how far G'Kar was willing to go for revenge, and very clearly establishing the part of his character that would grow in the Dust episode later. Another good example (and probably my favorite standalone) was Passing Through Gethsemane. It kinda felt like B5 met the Twilight Zone and just did a great job of both building up interesting bits about this version of humanity in the future. Though some of the best of this comes when you think something is filler, but it's actually not. In Grey 17 is Missing Garabaldi meets this crazy cult that believes the universe is sentient and preaches to him about the nature of the cosmos. It's played off in the episode like they're all crazy, but you find out much later through some subtle dialogue that the Mimbari essentially believe the same thing, and it's later pretty much confirmed by Lorien in season 4 to be correct.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/19 17:02:44


Post by: gorgon


Yeah, I've never really bought in to the idea of 'filler episodes' as some negative thing. There's nothing wrong with one-off stories and they can still contribute to the overall show. I remember how some X-Files diehards used to complain about the one-offs, but frankly they represent most of the best-written episodes of the show. The problem with a lot of the B5 episodes is that they weren't well-written or acted. Seems like it did improve as the seasons went on. But egad, there are some clunkers.

To be fair, I think B5 is just built on the 'chassis' of its time. Weekly episodes, largely series instead of serial format, goal of 5 years of 20-odd episodes of 40-something minutes each for max value in syndication, etc. They had to bang them out quickly and cheaply, and that affects quality. It's the law of cheap, fast and good...you only get to pick two of those.

Today's streaming televisions shows get large budgets (meaning more appeal to better actors and writers), all the time they need to create, a format that allows as many or few episodes as you need, no rigid time constraints, no need for commercial breaks, etc.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/19 17:05:42


Post by: Overread


I think the degree to which filler does or doesn't work (and our perception of it) varies greatly on the overall series in question.

At one extreme you've something like Star Trek the Original series where almost no two episodes link together, even at the series starts and finishes. You've a set of characters that show some, but not much, development or evolution and the core is seeing basically mature characters encountering different (yet similar) events each week.

Then there is something like the BBC Merlin series or NCIS. Where there is some character evolution through a series, but in general within each series most episodes are filler and can appear in any order. The bulk of character change and development happens within the first and last few episodes of each season. With the middle being some slow growth and change, but ultimately the order not being too important. Series ot series has a bit more variation ,but often as not if the same characters (actors) are around they can swap around fairly easily for the most part.

Of course NCIS shows that actor changes can take place, but often as not they retain the same "role" within the series.



Then at the other extreme you've got things like Game of Thrones, where filler isn't really happening at all. Where the order is essential and characters might make significant developments episode to episode. Where each episode is more like a long film broken into parts.





All of the above work.
There isn't really one that is outright superior or inferior to the other, although in general TV has often shied toward the former more so than the latter as it creates a much easier "drop in and out" situation where a new viewer can easily settle into a series even if they miss episodes. Meanwhile heavy story focus and development series can fall apart if people haven't seen most of the episodes. Interestingly I think streaming and catchup and other such things tht have come around have helped this type of series get more studio support because now you can avoid missing out and can, on your own terms, check out from the beginning.



For B5 its more story driven and even many stand alone episodes form part of many characters steady presentation, development and evolution as characters. The story itself in some episodes might not tie into the main overarching plots, but the "side quest" type nature of them at certain points helps us see characters in a new light. This builds into our overall picture of them and means when we get back to a "main story arc" episode it carries all the more weight because we've seen a bit more of those characters outside of it.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/19 17:31:18


Post by: Ian Sturrock


I rewatched all of it recently to show it to my daughter, and we both loved it, start to finish...

Until we tried watching the TV movies and Crusade.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/19 17:35:12


Post by: Mr Morden


 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I rewatched all of it recently to show it to my daughter, and we both loved it, start to finish...

Until we tried watching the TV movies and Crusade.


Yeah thats fair - although I enjoyed Thirdspace


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/19 17:45:37


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


In the Beginning was the only TV movie I’d consider genuinely good, but I enjoy Thirdspace. Call to Arms seems like it could have been decent if the score were…anything else, really. Even Yakety Sax would have complimented the story and action better.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/19 18:10:07


Post by: Aash


Spoiler:
 Tawnis wrote:
Aash wrote:
I think the big benefit this might have over the original is filler episodes.

With tv not needing to stick to 22 episodes per season anymore and streaking series often 6-10 episodes long, the story could be told without the filler.

I rewatched B5 a couple of years ago and there are just so so many episodes with no bearing on the overarching plot, or maybe only a single scene or a couple of lines of dialogue.

It was ahead if it’s time with regard to ongoing storytelling in TV, but by modern standards it is very much very much self-contained episodes.


I both agree and disagree with this.

For season 1 especially, and some in 2, there were episodes that just didn't need to be there, ones like TKO that both didn't fit into the overall plot and were just pretty meh in general. However, I think by season 3, he'd figured out the best way to use "filler" to actually make the story and universe richer.

Just because an episode doesn't directly connect to the overarching plot, doesn't mean that it doesn't build on the characters and their relationships or build up the world they live in. Some good examples of this come in early season three. The episode with the bomber was very stand alone and it was fine, but the scenes with Londo and G'Kar trapped in the elevator were fantastic, subverting the standard tropes of that situation and showing both just how far G'Kar was willing to go for revenge, and very clearly establishing the part of his character that would grow in the Dust episode later. Another good example (and probably my favorite standalone) was Passing Through Gethsemane. It kinda felt like B5 met the Twilight Zone and just did a great job of both building up interesting bits about this version of humanity in the future. Though some of the best of this comes when you think something is filler, but it's actually not. In Grey 17 is Missing Garabaldi meets this crazy cult that believes the universe is sentient and preaches to him about the nature of the cosmos. It's played off in the episode like they're all crazy, but you find out much later through some subtle dialogue that the Mimbari essentially believe the same thing, and it's later pretty much confirmed by Lorien in season 4 to be correct.


I think I agree with pretty much all of you points. But as good as some stand-alone episodes were, there are as many that didn’t really add anything. As you say, this was more of an issue in the first couple of seasons.

IIRC when it was made a B5 season had 22 episodes, 9 were focused on advancing the overarching plot and the other 13 were standalone in one way or another. Making the show now, instead of 22 40 minute episodes, it could be 10-12 one hour episodes, with out losing momentum on the main plot but still giving enough space to have character arcs for background characters, stand-alone stories etc.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/19 19:07:49


Post by: gorgon


Yeah, we have to remember the name of the game with TV those days was getting to 5 full seasons worth of rigidly-timed content so you could really cash in with syndication. Five was the magic number, so you did whatever you needed to do to stretch it to that amount.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/20 09:56:19


Post by: MarkNorfolk


Going back to the dialogue - I actually liked the cheesy, melodramatic text. It was part of the 'vibe' of the show. It made Garibaldi (war veteran turned detective with a history of alcoholism) into Philip Marlow. It also suited the more prophesy-related dialogue from those races that were "taking in the heady aroma of medieval deep space".


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/20 11:17:43


Post by: Pacific


Ah - good ole' Garibaldi! He had some great lines.

In between that and the discussion about that lift episode (where Lando and G'Kar were trapped together) I have now got hold a very reasonably priced series 1 DVD


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/20 14:33:40


Post by: Tawnis


 Pacific wrote:
Ah - good ole' Garibaldi! He had some great lines.


You wanna talk socks?


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/20 16:47:19


Post by: Flinty


The thing I remember vividly when B5 came out is that it actually covered real life stuff, like taking a shower or washing hands after going to the toilet. At the time, I couldn't point to any other sci-fi show that did that. However, that may just have been my own lack of horizons


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/20 18:03:29


Post by: gorgon


That kinda makes sense. Star Trek was the template at the time, and that template was sterile (pun not intended) in many aspects.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/21 02:42:58


Post by: chromedog


Nobody went to the toilet in many 1960s shows.

Wasn't just star trek.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/21 11:39:15


Post by: Overread


TV was very much more restrained than it is today. It's often really hard for people today to realise that something like the multicultural cast of Startrek Original series or Kirk kissing Uhura were BIG bold things in their time. Things that today we don't spare a second thought for.




B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/21 17:57:01


Post by: gorgon


 chromedog wrote:
Nobody went to the toilet in many 1960s shows.

Wasn't just star trek.


My comment extends beyond toilet habits, but then you know that.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/26 02:11:44


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 gorgon wrote:

Today's streaming televisions shows get large budgets (meaning more appeal to better actors and writers), all the time they need to create, a format that allows as many or few episodes as you need, no rigid time constraints, no need for commercial breaks, etc.


Ehhh... maybe. Netflix seem to give you two seasons, then your show needs to be bringing in a lot of new subscribers, or off you go.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/26 13:37:27


Post by: Vulcan


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
 gorgon wrote:

Today's streaming televisions shows get large budgets (meaning more appeal to better actors and writers), all the time they need to create, a format that allows as many or few episodes as you need, no rigid time constraints, no need for commercial breaks, etc.


Ehhh... maybe. Netflix seem to give you two seasons, then your show needs to be bringing in a lot of new subscribers, or off you go.


A model that only works so long as there are new subscribers to be found.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/10/26 14:12:10


Post by: gorgon


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
 gorgon wrote:

Today's streaming televisions shows get large budgets (meaning more appeal to better actors and writers), all the time they need to create, a format that allows as many or few episodes as you need, no rigid time constraints, no need for commercial breaks, etc.


Ehhh... maybe. Netflix seem to give you two seasons, then your show needs to be bringing in a lot of new subscribers, or off you go.


Well...yeah when going past one season on Netflix. But the rest still applies. At this point, I don't know why anyone would write a show for Netflix that has a slow burn. The writers got cute with Jupiter's Legacy (making season 1 prequel material) and now the show was cancelled before they really got to issue 1 of the comics.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/11/27 15:35:33


Post by: Ghaz


https://bleedingcool.com/tv/babylon-5-jms-sees-pilot-shoot-early-spring-possible-fall-2022-debut/



Looks like there's a good bit of momentum to the B5 reboot.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2021/12/06 15:26:52


Post by: Pacific


Excellent news!


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/02/04 15:28:15


Post by: Ghaz


From J. Michael Straczynski's Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/syntheticworlds

FEB 3, 2022 AT 5:59 PM
B5 CW News

I will be posting a link to this shortly so that other online folks can get the news, but wanted to let Patrons here get the word first, even if only by a little bit.

Anyone who knows the history of Babylon 5 knows that the path of this show has never been easy, and rarely proceeds in a straight line. Apparently, that has not changed.

About a month or so ago it was announced that the CW Network, B5’s home for the last year while the pilot script was in active development, was up for sale. When news of this broke, the immediate question was: will this have any effect on B5? Situations like this have a way of upending development because new owners usually want to put their imprimatur on what programs go forward. Like everyone else, I’d hoped there would be no immediate impact, and that progress on the project would continue onward unabated.

A few days ago, I heard from inside Warner Bros. that there were a number of High Level Conversations taking place with the CW to determine how many pilots, and what sort, could be picked up during this transition, especially given pre-existing deals and commitments. This made sense given the preceding paragraph, but I remained optimistic.

Today, about an hour ago, Deadline Hollywood announced the slate of pilot scripts being picked up for production by The CW. Babylon 5 was not on that list.

When a pilot script is not picked up to production, 99.999% of the time, that’s the end of the road for the project, the script is dead.

However: shortly before that piece was published, I received a call from Mark Pedowitz, President of The CW. (I should mention that Mark is a great guy and a long-time fan of B5. He worked for Warners when the show was first airing, and always made sure we got him copies of the episodes before they aired because he didn’t want to wait to see what happened next.)

Calling the pilot “a damned fine script,” he said he was taking the highly unusual step of rolling the project and the pilot script into next year, keeping B5 in active development while the dust settles on the sale of the CW.

Here’s the bottom line:

Yesterday, Babylon 5 was in active development at the CW and Warner Bros. for fall 2022.

Today, Babylon 5 is in active development at the CW and Warner Bros. for fall 2023.

That is the only difference.

Would it have been wonderful if we’d gotten the green light today? Absolutely. Of course. But it seems we will have to wait a little longer. What matters is that the project is still very much alive, and when the time is appropriate, that window will give B5 fans the opportunity to express their passionate support for the series to the new owners of the CW.

As noted above: the road to Babylon 5 has never been easy. But the good news to come out of today is that the road is still very much intact.

Onward.

JMS


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/02/04 15:42:16


Post by: Shadow Walker


Awesome news!


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/02/04 16:09:17


Post by: warboss


Thanks for the update. I hope this all turns out well and decidely not very CWish.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/02/04 16:09:17


Post by: tneva82


Figures there would be bumb but at least just a delay.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/02/04 16:57:07


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I’m not going to get my hopes up until they start showing set photos.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/06 09:33:45


Post by: Mr Morden


Quite intertested to see what they do - if it ever appears.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/06 12:13:24


Post by: chaos0xomega


I predict that whatever they do, someone will complain about it.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/06 12:45:00


Post by: warboss


chaos0xomega wrote:
I predict that whatever they do, someone will complain about it.


It's a self fulfilling prophecy when you yourself pre-whine in the same post.

Regardless, I hope it turns out well. I'm not optimistic though given the current entertainment era and the CW branding but hopefully JMS won't trek/who/wars it up with his reboot.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/06 13:56:52


Post by: chaos0xomega


where did I "pre-whine"? I'm really looking forward to this, whatever it is. I expect changes and look forward to them, I'm probably going to be one of the last people to complain about the reboot, because in general I'm one of the last people to complain about pretty much any film or tv series (Star Wars sequel trilogy notwithstanding).


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/06 14:04:07


Post by: warboss


You're pre-whining about the potential reception to it. Complaining about complaining is still unsurprisingly complaining.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/06 14:13:11


Post by: chaos0xomega


saying that people will find something to complain about is a far cry from complaining about the show itself. They aren't even remotely the same thing, nor even comparable.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/19 18:12:10


Post by: Ghaz


Babylon 5 Creator Calls on Fan Support To Save the Reboot

Today, he asked fans to show their support for the Babylon 5 reboot on social media by tweeting about it in an attempt to sway Warner Bros. Television's final decision. "The fate of the #Babylon5 pilot may be decided end of this month," Straczynski tweeted today. "Though much of @TheCW was bought by @NXSTMediaGroup the decision also rests heavily with @WarnerbrosTV. If fans want to show their support for B5 & let them know you want this to happen, now is the time #B5onCWin23."


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/19 18:49:18


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I wonder what the overlap is between fans of B5 and people on Twitter.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/19 19:13:39


Post by: chaos0xomega


Apparently really really really high - B5 is trending at #1 on Twitter in the US, and #2 in the UK, all while the most watched TV event in world history is happening in the UK.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/20 18:14:42


Post by: LunarSol


I've reached a state where anytime I see the CW involvement I start secretly wishing for a Riverdale style trainwreck.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/21 02:54:21


Post by: Vulcan


Given the end result of reboots the past decade or so... no, I don't think so.

Maybe in a less creatively bankrupt time in media, but not right now.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/21 03:20:51


Post by: Voss


 Ghaz wrote:
Babylon 5 Creator Calls on Fan Support To Save the Reboot

Today, he asked fans to show their support for the Babylon 5 reboot on social media by tweeting about it in an attempt to sway Warner Bros. Television's final decision. "The fate of the #Babylon5 pilot may be decided end of this month," Straczynski tweeted today. "Though much of @TheCW was bought by @NXSTMediaGroup the decision also rests heavily with @WarnerbrosTV. If fans want to show their support for B5 & let them know you want this to happen, now is the time #B5onCWin23."

Eh. Appealing to the twitter mob to save your show isn't a good look.
Might as well say he doesn't have any faith in it, and hopes that a flashmob who have never seen it can over ride the judgement of the studio execs that actually watch the pilot.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/21 09:47:22


Post by: Geifer


Comment from the sidelines, but with all the hubbub about Warner of late, isn't it more likely he has little faith in the company rather than his show?


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/21 14:19:17


Post by: Ghaz


 Geifer wrote:
Comment from the sidelines, but with all the hubbub about Warner of late, isn't it more likely he has little faith in the company rather than his show?

This. If he didn't have faith in his show he wouldn't be trying his best to get it on the air (after all, he's not an amateur hack trying to get his first show on television but an established name in the industry).


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/22 00:39:49


Post by: chaos0xomega


Well, regardless of your personal feelings, it seems he got what he needed.

Neil Gaiman went to bat for him too.

And he also has some words for the "creatively bankrupt" crowd.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/22 08:29:51


Post by: Vulcan


chaos0xomega wrote:
Well, regardless of your personal feelings, it seems he got what he needed.

Neil Gaiman went to bat for him too.

And he also has some words for the "creatively bankrupt" crowd.


If I thought for a moment JMS would be allowed to do what he wants, I'd be thrilled.

But in this era? In Hollywood? A MAN be allowed to do what he wants with his show? No, he's going to be pressured into things he would never have done back in the mid-'90s. I have no real hope for this to be good.

Which works in my favor. If I'm right, well, I told you so.

If I'm wrong, sure, I was wrong, and we actually managed to get a good show out of it.

But the current track record on remakes and reboots does not bode well.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/22 11:42:28


Post by: Grumpy Gnome


chaos0xomega wrote:
Well, regardless of your personal feelings, it seems he got what he needed.

Neil Gaiman went to bat for him too.

And he also has some words for the "creatively bankrupt" crowd.


It is a good day.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/22 13:54:14


Post by: warboss


 Vulcan wrote:

If I thought for a moment JMS would be allowed to do what he wants, I'd be thrilled.

But in this era? In Hollywood? A MAN be allowed to do what he wants with his show? No, he's going to be pressured into things he would never have done back in the mid-'90s. I have no real hope for this to be good.

Which works in my favor. If I'm right, well, I told you so.

If I'm wrong, sure, I was wrong, and we actually managed to get a good show out of it.

But the current track record on remakes and reboots does not bode well.


I don't think he'd be pressured into doing anything he wouldn't want to. I'd be more worried that the current Hollywood derangement bubble has instead affected him equally as well and he'd ruin his own show/legacy and end up with him disappointing then attacking his own fanbase just like seemingly with every other reboot/reimagining of classic fan favorites. I'd rather not have this too ruined retroactively for me and instead prefer it to just delay another 5-10 years when hopefully the fad will have passed.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/22 14:26:44


Post by: AduroT


Can you even imagine B5 with prominent female characters? Would totally ruin it.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/22 14:27:51


Post by: warboss


 AduroT wrote:
Can you even imagine B5 with prominent female characters? Would totally ruin it.


I hope that's not directed at me because that would be stupid. I ask becauce if that was the issue than I wouldn't be a fan of the series for almost 30 years. The show was always diverse in its casting just in case you've never watched it (which is apparently the case from your comment). You should watch it though and I think you'll really enjoy binging it for the first time!


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/22 15:08:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Pretty sure his comment was a sarcastic reaction to Vulcan.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/22 15:39:23


Post by: Ghaz


Yes, Babylon 5 has the very definition of a 'prominent female character' (several in fact, especially Ivanova )




B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/22 17:05:53


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Pretty sure his comment was a sarcastic reaction to Vulcan.


I, too, was wondering if Vulcan had ever watched the show. It was progressive for its time and would considered absolutely woke by today’s YouTube comments section. Heaven help any “real fans” who look into the original plan for Delenn’s character transformation. (I do wonder if JMS will push for that in the reboot, and if people will decry it as not being true to the original vision.)


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/22 17:13:57


Post by: warboss


Yeah, Delenn in the pilot is markedly different and more alien (and masculine). FWIW and obviously subject to change but JMS has said that he doesn't plan on rebooting/retelling the show but rather doing something related but new. I doubt he'll try to repeat that for Delenn or in general though I would have preferred to see that in the original as well. Bring on the alien aliens in scifi. One of the biggest failings (among MANY) in nutrek is that, while the technical ability and budget exist nowadays to do so, we haven't seen true aliens as regular cast. The most alien alien in SNW was killed off in the worse possible way. We're literally back to 1960's weird haircut and plastic ear tips as the pinnacle of alien representation on the regular cast. Hell, B5 was significantly better in the mid 90s in that regard with Jakar (sp?), Delenn, and Kosh.

I disagree though that it would be considered woke nowadays for either side whether for or against. I agree that it was progressive for its time but back then being progressive meant that you represented society in proportion to society and didn't do so specifically at the expense of one demographic group in particular. If representation matters (and I do think it does) then it matters for all and not just for some. YMMV.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/22 20:03:05


Post by: Sterling191


Pilot Delenn was different because they were supposed to be male, and transition to female at the end of S1. They couldn't get the voice modulation to work between the pilot and the start of regular production, so scrapped the idea.

As for "not being considered woke", a trans regular cast member, at least two gay one (cause if we're doing this we're gonna give Ivanova her due) and the underlying meta-arc of "Fascism is bad yo"? Yeah that's gonna piss a very particular crowd off.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/23 10:29:57


Post by: Vulcan


 AduroT wrote:
Can you even imagine B5 with prominent female characters? Would totally ruin it.


I'm hoping this is sarcasm, given the prominent roles of Delenn, Lita Alexander, Susan Ivanova, Talia Winter, and Na'Toth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Pretty sure his comment was a sarcastic reaction to Vulcan.


I, too, was wondering if Vulcan had ever watched the show. It was progressive for its time and would considered absolutely woke by today’s YouTube comments section. Heaven help any “real fans” who look into the original plan for Delenn’s character transformation. (I do wonder if JMS will push for that in the reboot, and if people will decry it as not being true to the original vision.)


Well. I can see I've already been judged for wanting GOOD WRITING and not 'dur hurr, look at the dumb males who need strong women to save them from themselves'....


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/23 11:09:45


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Are….are you feeling alright?

You completely contradicted yourself in that post?


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/23 11:35:54


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Vulcan wrote:
But in this era? In Hollywood? A MAN be allowed to do what he wants with his show? No, he's going to be pressured into things he would never have done back in the mid-'90s. I have no real hope for this to be good.


Like what? JMS was ahead of his time with B5, the original already included LGBTQ+ characters and romances, diverse casting, powerful female leads, etc. Theres really nothing that modern Hollywood is "pressuring" people into doing today that JMS didn't already do of his own desire 25+ years ago.

I don't think he'd be pressured into doing anything he wouldn't want to. I'd be more worried that the current Hollywood derangement bubble has instead affected him equally as well and he'd ruin his own show/legacy and end up with him disappointing then attacking his own fanbase just like seemingly with every other reboot/reimagining of classic fan favorites. I'd rather not have this too ruined retroactively for me and instead prefer it to just delay another 5-10 years when hopefully the fad will have passed.




We already know how this is going to go. JMS will include all the same "deranged" progressive "woke" stuff that he did in the original, like a lesbian romance (for example), anti-fascist socio-political commentary, diverse representation, etc. and you and your buddies are going to REEEEEEEE about it while plugging your ears as sane, level-headed folk that don't see the devil or some grand conspiracy in the most irrelevant details point out to you that its true to the original.

Jakar (sp?)


You've been a fan for 30 years and you don't know how to spell G'kar?


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/23 13:01:05


Post by: warboss


chaos0xomega wrote:



We already know how this is going to go. JMS will include all the same "deranged" progressive "woke" stuff that he did in the original, like a lesbian romance (for example), anti-fascist socio-political commentary, diverse representation, etc. and you and your buddies are going to REEEEEEEE about it while plugging your ears as sane, level-headed folk that don't see the devil or some grand conspiracy in the most irrelevant details point out to you that its true to the original.


If I had a problem with that then I would have 30 years ago and not liked it in the first place. As usual, you "and your buddies are going to REEEEEEE" at windmills and fight against arguments not being made by the sane, level-headed folk who notice that those laudible goals/aspects are not supposed to replace well rounded character development, quality writing, and talented acting. THAT is woke programming and those aspects are used by the ignorant as shields against valid criticism regarding the lack of the latter.

You've been a fan for 30 years and you don't know how to spell G'kar?


For someone so progressive, you sure are doing a great impression of an internet grammar/spelling nazi, lol. Yes, I spelled it incorrectly, Herr Omega. Or would you prefer Commissar?


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/23 16:08:35


Post by: chaos0xomega


 warboss wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:



We already know how this is going to go. JMS will include all the same "deranged" progressive "woke" stuff that he did in the original, like a lesbian romance (for example), anti-fascist socio-political commentary, diverse representation, etc. and you and your buddies are going to REEEEEEEE about it while plugging your ears as sane, level-headed folk that don't see the devil or some grand conspiracy in the most irrelevant details point out to you that its true to the original.


If I had a problem with that then I would have 30 years ago and not liked it in the first place. As usual, you "and your buddies are going to REEEEEEE" at windmills and fight against arguments not being made by the sane, level-headed folk who notice that those laudible goals/aspects are not supposed to replace well rounded character development, quality writing, and talented acting. THAT is woke programming and those aspects are used by the ignorant as shields against valid criticism regarding the lack of the latter.


*snort, chortle, raucous laughter*

I've seen this play out plenty of times. Plenty of shows and films which are more than enjoyable, well-written, and entertaining have well-rounded character development, quality writing, and talented acting, and still get slammed as just being "woke programming" for no other reason than the fact that they are progressive. In a word - you're projecting, you use "woke programming" as a cudgel to justify bashing progressive casting and writing decisions in order to diminish the quality of the mediums artistry and effort.

For someone so progressive, you sure are doing a great impression of an internet grammar/spelling nazi, lol. Yes, I spelled it incorrectly, Herr Omega. Or would you prefer Commissar?


You may address me as Omega the Hun.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/23 16:44:13


Post by: warboss


chaos0xomega wrote:

I've seen this play out plenty of times. Plenty of shows and films which are more than enjoyable, well-written, and entertaining have well-rounded character development, quality writing, and talented acting, and still get slammed as just being "woke programming" for no other reason than the fact that they are progressive. In a word - you're projecting, you use "woke programming" as a cudgel to justify bashing progressive casting and writing decisions in order to diminish the quality of the mediums artistry and effort.


Projecting... you're using that word but I don't think you know what it means though admittedly it may just be a complete lack of self awareness instead. As for the rest, diverse shows in the scifi/fantasy genres like the Expanse, the Mandalorian, and the more recent House of the Dragon didn't suffer from the same criticism after the premieres and were/are instead enjoyed because they didn't sacrifice storytelling and acting despite largely the same crowd lambasting recent star trek and star wars offerings (notably STD and Picard) and more recently Rings of Power. If you like bad shows, that's fine; I like some bad things too like the first AVP movie and Morbius. Just don't bother with the Carnac the Magnificent routine because Johnny Carson did it much better.

Either way, it's obvious I won't convince you so I'll leave you with some 40k thoughts for the day that seem appropriate. Blessed is the mind too small for doubt. Be strong in your ignorance for an open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded!


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/23 19:12:40


Post by: Captain Joystick


For the record I've been a fan of B5 since it first aired and I wouldn't be able to spell G'Kar at the drop of a hat either.

In a couple of days I'll have forgotten again.

Look. If JMS wants to make it I'm going to want to see what he produces. After all the studio driven reboots and remakes where the suits had to drag the original creators around by their noses with promises of big fat pay cheques you would think one where the creatives behind it are trying to drum up studio interest would be tentatively exciting.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/24 00:58:32


Post by: chaos0xomega


 warboss wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

I've seen this play out plenty of times. Plenty of shows and films which are more than enjoyable, well-written, and entertaining have well-rounded character development, quality writing, and talented acting, and still get slammed as just being "woke programming" for no other reason than the fact that they are progressive. In a word - you're projecting, you use "woke programming" as a cudgel to justify bashing progressive casting and writing decisions in order to diminish the quality of the mediums artistry and effort.


Projecting... you're using that word but I don't think you know what it means though admittedly it may just be a complete lack of self awareness instead. As for the rest, diverse shows in the scifi/fantasy genres like the Expanse, the Mandalorian, and the more recent House of the Dragon didn't suffer from the same criticism after the premieres and were/are instead enjoyed because they didn't sacrifice storytelling and acting despite largely the same crowd lambasting recent star trek and star wars offerings (notably STD and Picard) and more recently Rings of Power. If you like bad shows, that's fine; I like some bad things too like the first AVP movie and Morbius. Just don't bother with the Carnac the Magnificent routine because Johnny Carson did it much better.

Either way, it's obvious I won't convince you so I'll leave you with some 40k thoughts for the day that seem appropriate. Blessed is the mind too small for doubt. Be strong in your ignorance for an open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded!


I'm sorry. You need to be a special kind of stupid to accuse someone of a lack of self awareness while trying to pull the bs arguments that you're using out of your ass.

Also, check again - if you type "xyz woke garbage" where you replace xyz with the names of the shows you listed, you'll find *plenty* of criticism of how poorly written the shows are alongside how "woke" they are. Not only do you lack self-awareness, but you also seem to lack awareness of the world around you.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/09/24 01:41:59


Post by: warboss


 Captain Joystick wrote:
For the record I've been a fan of B5 since it first aired and I wouldn't be able to spell G'Kar at the drop of a hat either.

In a couple of days I'll have forgotten again.

Look. If JMS wants to make it I'm going to want to see what he produces. After all the studio driven reboots and remakes where the suits had to drag the original creators around by their noses with promises of big fat pay cheques you would think one where the creatives behind it are trying to drum up studio interest would be tentatively exciting.


Fair enough. I'm going to check it out as well due to my love of the original. I used to follow his website where he had short descriptions of upcoming episodes a season or two in advance (can't see anyone doing that nowadays!) and try to imagine how they'd turn out. As for the spelling mistake, I did learn and made sure to look up my Tonight Show reference/joke just in case and was glad that I did. I almost spelled it with a K!


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/10/07 00:27:34


Post by: Ghaz


J. Michael Straczynski on Babylon 5 Reboot/The CW: "We Ain't Dead Yet" posted October 3 2022

Earlier today, news hit that Nexstar Media Group had formally closed its deal to acquire 75% of The CW (with Warner Bros. Discovery & Paramount Global each retaining 12.5% ownership stakes). Along with that news also came word that Mark Pedowitz had stepped down as Chairman/CEO of the network after 11-1/2 years in charge, leading many to believe that was the final move in what will be a major programming overhaul of the networks. As we wrote earlier today, that leaves the statuses of a number of series in limbo and left wondering about their futures. One of those projects is J. Michael Straczynski's "from-the-ground-up" Babylon 5 reboot, and now JMS is offering an update to fans who were left wondering. "We ain't dead yet."

"There are still a lot of discussions going on behind the scenes, and no decision has yet been made about #B5onCWin23. As we await that decision, fans eager to see a new 'Babylon 5' series should continue to voice their support to [Nexstar Media Group] and [Warner Bros. TV]," JMS added in a tweet updating fans on where things stand. Following that, he had some kind words to share about Pedowitz, adding, "And though Mark Pedowitz is now on a new path into the future after leading the CW for 11 years, I want to thank him for his dedication to and support of Babylon 5 during all of this, right through to the events of today. He's a stand-up guy."


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/10/08 09:00:46


Post by: Kwahrezal


The CW nuked the excellent Swamp Thing show because executives personally disliked it. It also happened to be the only DC show which didn't ape Marvel movies. There's a lot of pressure on the people cranking out all of these derivative works and remakes to stick to that formula: twee, glib dialogue with YA level character development and CGI-heavy action scenes, and JMS has to know that B5 can easily get the Swamp Thing treatment if he strays too much.

I also thought that the cheesy look of the show and the wooden acting in the first few movies/episodes were part of the show's charm, but that is undoubtedly a minority opinion.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/10/08 13:22:35


Post by: warboss


 Kwahrezal wrote:


I also thought that the cheesy look of the show and the wooden acting in the first few movies/episodes were part of the show's charm, but that is undoubtedly a minority opinion.


For B5 or Swamp Thing? I never watched the latter.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/10/08 13:56:27


Post by: Kwahrezal


 warboss wrote:
 Kwahrezal wrote:


I also thought that the cheesy look of the show and the wooden acting in the first few movies/episodes were part of the show's charm, but that is undoubtedly a minority opinion.


For B5 or Swamp Thing? I never watched the latter.


B5. Commander Sinclair in particular reminded me of someone from an episode of MST3k. The actors in Swamp Thing were much better from the start - the execs just didn't like the idea of having a show where the superhero is a hideous monster who murders rednecks.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/10/08 21:09:52


Post by: Ghaz


 Kwahrezal wrote:
The CW nuked the excellent Swamp Thing show because executives personally disliked it. It also happened to be the only DC show which didn't ape Marvel movies. There's a lot of pressure on the people cranking out all of these derivative works and remakes to stick to that formula: twee, glib dialogue with YA level character development and CGI-heavy action scenes, and JMS has to know that B5 can easily get the Swamp Thing treatment if he strays too much.

I also thought that the cheesy look of the show and the wooden acting in the first few movies/episodes were part of the show's charm, but that is undoubtedly a minority opinion.

Swamp Thing originally aired on (and was nuked by) the DC Universe streaming service. I’m not sure if the CW was ever offered the chance to continue the series afterwards.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/10/08 23:09:25


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


Commander Sinclair was known as Commander Cardboard when me and my friends were watching B5 for the first time, acting was really not his strong suit (or he was an excellent actor portraying a really wooden character)

but it didn't hurt the series too much


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/10/08 23:30:31


Post by: warboss


I rather liked him though I will admit his voice had alot to do with it. Admittedly he wasn't showing alot of emotion though in almost all the scenes (other than frustration or anger).


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/10/08 23:45:01


Post by: Ghaz


From Wikipedia

Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski revealed after O'Hare's death that the actor had had severe mental illness. During the filming of the first season of Babylon 5, O'Hare began having paranoid delusions, and halfway through, his hallucinations worsened. It became increasingly difficult for O'Hare to continue working, his behavior was becoming increasingly erratic, and he was often at odds with his colleagues. Straczynski offered to suspend production for several months to accommodate treatment; however O'Hare feared that such a hiatus would put the series at risk, and he didn't want to jeopardize others' jobs. Straczynski agreed to keep O'Hare's condition secret to protect his career, and O'Hare agreed to complete the first season, but would be written out of the second season so that he could seek treatment. His departure from the cast was announced without explanation, except that it was mutual and amicable.

His treatments were only partially successful. He reappeared in a cameo appearance early in season two ("The Coming of Shadows") and returned in season three for a two-part episode ("War Without End") which closed his character's story arc. At that time, Straczynski promised O'Hare to keep his condition secret "to my grave". O'Hare told him to instead "keep the secret to my grave", arguing that fans deserved to eventually learn the real reason for his departure, and that his experience could raise awareness and understanding for people with mental illness. He made no further appearances on Babylon 5, but continued to support the show and appeared at conventions and signing events until his retirement from public appearances in 2000.

On September 28, 2012, Straczynski posted that O'Hare had had a heart attack in New York City five days earlier, and had remained in a coma until his death that day. Eight months later, Straczynski revealed the circumstances of O'Hare's departure from Babylon 5 at a presentation about the series at the Phoenix Comicon.

I think that considering his condition, he should be admired for carrying on and not quitting.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2022/11/15 20:24:44


Post by: Ghaz


'J. Michael Straczynski offers hope for The CW's 'Babylon 5' reboot, despite network cancellations' - SYFY Wire

Straczynski took his Twitter account over the weekend to address new rumors swirling around about the future of his sci-fi series, a major creative force in the genre in the 1990s that remains one of the most influential series of its time. While he didn't offer any actual news on the future of the series, Straczysnki stressed that there's a good reason: There isn't news, and anyone who says there's news is lying.

J. Michael Straczynski on Twitter wrote:We're all impatient for B5 news, and there are tons of rumors from bloggers and posters and even some cast, but there's truly no decision because the decision makers haven't decided. When that decision does get made, it will come to me first, not to any of those folks --- and when it does I'll get it out as soon as possible or at minimum let you know that something has been decided. Through 30+ years of rumors and online nonsense I've always dealt straight with the B5 fan community. Waiting is hard, but wait we must until *something* is decided


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2023/07/06 22:00:45


Post by: Ghaz


Babylon 5 Reboot Gets New Update Amid Writers Strike - ComicBook.com

Reports of Babylon 5's death seem to, once again, have been at least somewhat exaggerated. Following the release of The CW's 2023-2024 schedule, the network confirmed that virtually every project started under prior management had been released to studios. That means, basically, that they won't be showing up on The CW, but might still be developed somewhere else if the producers want to give it a try. That left most fans assuming that the planned Babylon 5 reboot was in trouble, especially since the network seems to be focusing on inexpensive, unscripted programs rather than the expensive genre fare that had kept The CW afloat for years.

In a fan Q&A, though, TVLine suggested that the project remains in limbo, although all movement (good or bad) had petered out as a result of the ongoing Writers Guild of America strike, which began in May. This repeats a mantra that has been on creator J. Michael Straczynski's lips for a while now: when there's definitive news, he'll know. And when he knows, he'll let the fans know.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2023/07/06 22:49:24


Post by: warboss


I think it's probably unfortunately equally true to say that reports of the franchise's life also seem to be repeatedly exaggerated with the lone exception over the past 20 years being the upcoming animated show. :(

I personally just consider the Expanse to be the modern day spiritual successor to B5.


B5 reboot on the CW with JMS @ 2023/07/19 07:11:38


Post by: tneva82


B5 coming to bluray. Same as the upgraded version that was streamed though studio claims picture quality even better.