Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 13:43:31


Post by: SemperMortis


Looks like Nidz and IG are getting supplement books...which is interesting since you know....they don't have a codex yet. This kind of ties into an earlier thread about whether or not GW is successful in spite of itself, and this is a good example of it being the case

Don't get me wrong, I am wicked happy Nids and Guard are getting a book but I was hoping they would get a codex first to you know...base this on. I think this is going to cause a wonderful FAQ/Errata nightmare as GW tries to remember what it said when it said it and how its going to say it in the future


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 13:46:54


Post by: the_scotsman


SemperMortis wrote:
Looks like Nidz and IG are getting supplement books...which is interesting since you know....they don't have a codex yet. This kind of ties into an earlier thread about whether or not GW is successful in spite of itself, and this is a good example of it being the case

Don't get me wrong, I am wicked happy Nids and Guard are getting a book but I was hoping they would get a codex first to you know...base this on. I think this is going to cause a wonderful FAQ/Errata nightmare as GW tries to remember what it said when it said it and how its going to say it in the future


...one might actually argue that it makes MORE sense to give out these power-boosting supplements to factions like nids and guard that dont have 'dexes, rather than doing day-1-DLC books for factions that are just getting their books and haven't been, you know, playtested at all by the community.

"Should I put this trait in to double the attacks a succubus can do? I'm sure its fine.'

"Should I give Cult of Strife numerous stratagems to increase the hitting power of their wych cult units? im sure its fine."

"Should I give cult of strife ignore overwatch at will? I'm sure it's fine."

"Should I give cult of strife the ability to grant a 4++ for a full turn to hellions and reavers that dont usually get 4++ saves? I'm sure its fine."


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 13:50:10


Post by: Spoletta


IG and nid dexes are extremely likely to be the last 2 dexes of this edition. They have to wait around 13-14 months more for their rules. This is a way to get them by in the meantime.

Now, I still don't like it, and won't buy it, but it has a far more sound rational than the other campaign books.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 13:56:31


Post by: SemperMortis


Spoletta wrote:
IG and nid dexes are extremely likely to be the last 2 dexes of this edition. They have to wait around 13-14 months more for their rules. This is a way to get them by in the meantime.

Now, I still don't like it, and won't buy it, but it has a far more sound rational than the other campaign books.


LMAO, I am also of the opinion that you shouldn't release campaign books at all until every faction has a codex in hand. That is 1 thing they did mostly right in 8th that they should have kept going. As to the_Scotsman comment...yeah, playtesting should probably be handled before release dates not after With that said....GW is notorious for how terrible their playtesters are. Friendly reminder that according to reece the Stompa is going to be OP in 8th!


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 13:58:49


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 the_scotsman wrote:
"Should I put this trait in to double the attacks a succubus can do? I'm sure its fine.'
"Should we give Transhuman Physiology and All Is Dust to Guardsmen? I'm sure it's fine."



IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:01:36


Post by: Daedalus81


Spoletta wrote:
IG and nid dexes are extremely likely to be the last 2 dexes of this edition. They have to wait around 13-14 months more for their rules. This is a way to get them by in the meantime.

Now, I still don't like it, and won't buy it, but it has a far more sound rational than the other campaign books.


Yep. This is probably the best potential outcome right now. T'au and CSM hitting early next year. GSC and Custodes in December. Eldar seems like it will catch a Spring / Summer release. Then all we have is Knights / Daemons / Harlies.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:11:50


Post by: Aenar


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
"Should I put this trait in to double the attacks a succubus can do? I'm sure its fine.'
"Should we give Transhuman Physiology and All Is Dust to Guardsmen? I'm sure it's fine."


It only on a single unit though, it doubt it will be gamebreaking.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:12:53


Post by: SemperMortis


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
"Should I put this trait in to double the attacks a succubus can do? I'm sure its fine.'
"Should we give Transhuman Physiology and All Is Dust to Guardsmen? I'm sure it's fine."



In fairness to those poor guardsmen, Transhuman is a failure on 2-3 this is only a failure on a 2, so its 50% less effective, especially since its on cheap infantry models, and the All is dust is buffing them to a 4+ rather than a 2+

And finally on top of all of that..its a 1CP strat on a 55pt infantry unit


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:15:21


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Aenar wrote:
It only on a single unit though, it doubt it will be gamebreaking.
I don't care. Transhuman, as much as I despise that strat, exists because Primaris Marines are Marines++ an have super-duper Cawl-Approved internal organs that make them amazing. Thousand Sons have All is Dust because there's literally no living matter within them to kill/wound, so they can shrug off hits that should cripple them as it's really just the armour taking the hit.

Guard, unsurprisingly, are Guard. They're squishy humans. Very squishy humans. So squishy in fact that once upon a time GW realised that Guard commanders aren't really the type to be mixing it up with Chaos Lords and Hive Tyrants, so stuck them in Command Squads to keep them safe.

They forgot that somewhere along the way, and now they have this rule.

It's beyond stupid. This rule should not exist.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:17:50


Post by: Daedalus81


SemperMortis wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
"Should I put this trait in to double the attacks a succubus can do? I'm sure its fine.'
"Should we give Transhuman Physiology and All Is Dust to Guardsmen? I'm sure it's fine."



In fairness to those poor guardsmen, Transhuman is a failure on 2-3 this is only a failure on a 2, so its 50% less effective, especially since its on cheap infantry models, and the All is dust is buffing them to a 4+ rather than a 2+

And finally on top of all of that..its a 1CP strat on a 55pt infantry unit


Yea it's just ok. There isn't a ton of S6 floating around right now. Probably the biggest outcome would be preventing an opponent from boosting their weapons.

This will definitely go on 30 man conscripts. Without Raw Recruits they may actually be reliable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's beyond stupid. This rule should not exist.


Why? Why can't it just represent their resolve or ability to dig in?

Why are we complaining about the lethality of 9th and then complaining about rules that address that? I get it isn't the sort of solution some people want, but come on...


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:21:36


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Sheesh, if GW waits 14 months to get the IG codex out, that'll be basically 2023.

That's 6 years between codexes, or exactly the same amount of time IG have had to wait for an update between their 3rd edition codex and their 5th edition codex. (and tied for the longest IG have ever gone without an update).

But NuGW has a faster release schedule and said they will never leave any armies in the dust again. Plus, they buffed Cadians in the interim, so it's all good /s


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:23:50


Post by: Eldarsif


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Sheesh, if GW waits 14 months to get the IG codex out, that'll be basically 2023.

That's 6 years between codexes, or exactly the same amount of time IG have had to wait for an update between their 3rd edition codex and their 5th edition codex. (and tied for the longest IG have ever gone without an update).

But NuGW has a faster release schedule and said they will never leave any armies in the dust again. Plus, they buffed Cadians in the interim, so it's all good /s


I think when they mean "leaving in the dust" they are referring to Sisters and how they were left to rot in oblivion for so long.

It does suck though when your army is last in a codex cycle. I only hope that the wait is worth it and they get a proper big release of models and all kinds of beautiful stuff.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:24:04


Post by: jeff white


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
"Should I put this trait in to double the attacks a succubus can do? I'm sure its fine.'
"Should we give Transhuman Physiology and All Is Dust to Guardsmen? I'm sure it's fine."


I did not realize things had gotten so bad... thanks for this.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:25:48


Post by: tneva82


SemperMortis wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
IG and nid dexes are extremely likely to be the last 2 dexes of this edition. They have to wait around 13-14 months more for their rules. This is a way to get them by in the meantime.

Now, I still don't like it, and won't buy it, but it has a far more sound rational than the other campaign books.


LMAO, I am also of the opinion that you shouldn't release campaign books at all until every faction has a codex in hand. That is 1 thing they did mostly right in 8th that they should have kept going. As to the_Scotsman comment...yeah, playtesting should probably be handled before release dates not after With that said....GW is notorious for how terrible their playtesters are. Friendly reminder that according to reece the Stompa is going to be OP in 8th!


Well the playtesters are just glorified typo seekers. For balance fixes one would need to include points but playtesters weren't even asked from those let alone listened.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:25:59


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Eldarsif wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Sheesh, if GW waits 14 months to get the IG codex out, that'll be basically 2023.

That's 6 years between codexes, or exactly the same amount of time IG have had to wait for an update between their 3rd edition codex and their 5th edition codex. (and tied for the longest IG have ever gone without an update).

But NuGW has a faster release schedule and said they will never leave any armies in the dust again. Plus, they buffed Cadians in the interim, so it's all good /s


I think when they mean "leaving in the dust" they are referring to Sisters and how they were left to rot in oblivion for so long.

It does suck though when your army is last in a codex cycle. I only hope that the wait is worth it and they get a proper big release of models and all kinds of beautiful stuff.


Oh, and here I was thinking they'd changed and would make sure to update codexes more quickly and that their words were more than just "ok, ok, sisters are a real army now".

If they really just meant "You'll still have 6-year codex update cycles, but you can add Sororitas to the pile too" then I confess I misunderstood what they were asserting.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:26:47


Post by: Ordana


 the_scotsman wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Looks like Nidz and IG are getting supplement books...which is interesting since you know....they don't have a codex yet. This kind of ties into an earlier thread about whether or not GW is successful in spite of itself, and this is a good example of it being the case

Don't get me wrong, I am wicked happy Nids and Guard are getting a book but I was hoping they would get a codex first to you know...base this on. I think this is going to cause a wonderful FAQ/Errata nightmare as GW tries to remember what it said when it said it and how its going to say it in the future


...one might actually argue that it makes MORE sense to give out these power-boosting supplements to factions like nids and guard that dont have 'dexes, rather than doing day-1-DLC books for factions that are just getting their books and haven't been, you know, playtested at all by the community.

"Should I put this trait in to double the attacks a succubus can do? I'm sure its fine.'

"Should I give Cult of Strife numerous stratagems to increase the hitting power of their wych cult units? im sure its fine."

"Should I give cult of strife ignore overwatch at will? I'm sure it's fine."

"Should I give cult of strife the ability to grant a 4++ for a full turn to hellions and reavers that dont usually get 4++ saves? I'm sure its fine."
I'm sure Players will be happy with this explanation (correct tho it may be) while they continue to get steamrolled by DE /s.

Its not going to help the communities desire for some form of balanced meta when some armies get day 1 DLC that further buffs their already good army and others get 'buffs' for an old irrelevant codex that will likely be completely invalidated by (or contrain) their future codex that comes out a year later.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
"Should I put this trait in to double the attacks a succubus can do? I'm sure its fine.'
"Should we give Transhuman Physiology and All Is Dust to Guardsmen? I'm sure it's fine."



In fairness to those poor guardsmen, Transhuman is a failure on 2-3 this is only a failure on a 2, so its 50% less effective, especially since its on cheap infantry models, and the All is dust is buffing them to a 4+ rather than a 2+

And finally on top of all of that..its a 1CP strat on a 55pt infantry unit


Yea it's just ok. There isn't a ton of S6 floating around right now. Probably the biggest outcome would be preventing an opponent from boosting their weapons.

This will definitely go on 30 man conscripts. Without Raw Recruits they may actually be reliable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's beyond stupid. This rule should not exist.


Why? Why can't it just represent their resolve or ability to dig in?

Why are we complaining about the lethality of 9th and then complaining about rules that address that? I get it isn't the sort of solution some people want, but come on...
fix lethality by making weapons less lethal. Not by stacking yet more special rules.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:30:07


Post by: Eldarsif


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Sheesh, if GW waits 14 months to get the IG codex out, that'll be basically 2023.

That's 6 years between codexes, or exactly the same amount of time IG have had to wait for an update between their 3rd edition codex and their 5th edition codex. (and tied for the longest IG have ever gone without an update).

But NuGW has a faster release schedule and said they will never leave any armies in the dust again. Plus, they buffed Cadians in the interim, so it's all good /s


I think when they mean "leaving in the dust" they are referring to Sisters and how they were left to rot in oblivion for so long.

It does suck though when your army is last in a codex cycle. I only hope that the wait is worth it and they get a proper big release of models and all kinds of beautiful stuff.


Oh, and here I was thinking they'd changed and would make sure to update codexes more quickly and that their words were more than just "ok, ok, sisters are a real army now".

If they really just meant "You'll still have 6-year codex update cycles, but you can add Sororitas to the pile too" then I confess I misunderstood what they were asserting.


Considering how long the codex cycle was in older editions one could technically argue that the current one is super fast, especially when a codex skipped editions. We also don't know if Guardsmen or Nids will be last so it remains to be seen. I mean, my first army(Craftworlds) seems to be late to the party so I am here waiting along with you.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:32:19


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Eldarsif wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Sheesh, if GW waits 14 months to get the IG codex out, that'll be basically 2023.

That's 6 years between codexes, or exactly the same amount of time IG have had to wait for an update between their 3rd edition codex and their 5th edition codex. (and tied for the longest IG have ever gone without an update).

But NuGW has a faster release schedule and said they will never leave any armies in the dust again. Plus, they buffed Cadians in the interim, so it's all good /s


I think when they mean "leaving in the dust" they are referring to Sisters and how they were left to rot in oblivion for so long.

It does suck though when your army is last in a codex cycle. I only hope that the wait is worth it and they get a proper big release of models and all kinds of beautiful stuff.


Oh, and here I was thinking they'd changed and would make sure to update codexes more quickly and that their words were more than just "ok, ok, sisters are a real army now".

If they really just meant "You'll still have 6-year codex update cycles, but you can add Sororitas to the pile too" then I confess I misunderstood what they were asserting.


Considering how long the codex cycle was in older editions one could technically argue that the current one is super fast, especially when a codex skipped editions. We also don't know if Guardsmen or Nids will be last so it remains to be seen. I mean, my first army(Craftworlds) seems to be late to the party so I am here waiting along with you.


I mean, like I said, the longest period the IG EVER had to wait was 6 years (2003 -> 2009). If people's predictions are 14 months from October 2021? That's 2023. Do you know when the IG book was released? 2017.

"Super Fast" should never be synonymous with "nearly tied for the longest time the army had to ever wait for an update ever" imho.

My other armies are CWE, Daemons and other IG flavors so...


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:33:44


Post by: Daedalus81


Released October 2017 so it'd be five years. You can continue to claim it is slow if you ignore literally every other metric, so...huzzah?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:33:53


Post by: SemperMortis


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Sheesh, if GW waits 14 months to get the IG codex out, that'll be basically 2023.

That's 6 years between codexes, or exactly the same amount of time IG have had to wait for an update between their 3rd edition codex and their 5th edition codex. (and tied for the longest IG have ever gone without an update).

But NuGW has a faster release schedule and said they will never leave any armies in the dust again. Plus, they buffed Cadians in the interim, so it's all good /s


3rd Edition Ork Codex 1999
4th Edition Ork Codex 2008
5th Edition Ork Codex N/A
6th Edition Ork Codex N/A
7th Edition Ork Codex 2014 (Arguably the worst codex of the edition)
8th Edition Ork Codex November 2018 (Good Codex)
9th Edition Ork Codex 2021

The only faction which gets Codex love on a regular basis is the Space Marines.

3rd Edition SM Codex 1998
4th Edition SM Codex 2004
5th Edition SM Codex 2008
6th Edition SM Codex 2013
7th Edition SM Codex 2015
8th Edition SM Codex 2017
8th Edition SM II Codex 2019
9th Edition SM Codex 2019

and of course that is without any of the supplements or other Chapters. GW does what makes them money. And power armor makes money




IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:36:01


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Released October 2017 so it'd be five years. You can continue to claim it is slow if you ignore literally every other metric, so...huzzah?


Right, five ish years. And the IG Codex in 2009 was released in May, but the 2003 one was released in November, so also 5 and a bit years strictly speaking. I didn't know how many significant figures you wanted before you believed me.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:36:57


Post by: Eldarsif


I mean, like I said, the longest period the IG EVER had to wait was 6 years (2003 -> 2009). If people's predictions are 14 months from October 2021? That's 2023. Do you know when the IG book was released? 2017.


And the same will go for other armies who are now languishing, Nidz, CWE, and so on. The only army that seems safe with frequent updates is Space Marines when you think about it.

I do believe people forgot that there was a pandemic, a BREXIT, and now a shipping issue which is delaying everything. These are truly exciting and tumultuous times we live in. So 6 years which is your guesstimate could have been much shorter if the world wasn't thrown upside down a la Magneto.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:37:45


Post by: Unit1126PLL


SemperMortis wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Sheesh, if GW waits 14 months to get the IG codex out, that'll be basically 2023.

That's 6 years between codexes, or exactly the same amount of time IG have had to wait for an update between their 3rd edition codex and their 5th edition codex. (and tied for the longest IG have ever gone without an update).

But NuGW has a faster release schedule and said they will never leave any armies in the dust again. Plus, they buffed Cadians in the interim, so it's all good /s


3rd Edition Ork Codex 1999
4th Edition Ork Codex 2008
5th Edition Ork Codex N/A
6th Edition Ork Codex N/A
7th Edition Ork Codex 2014 (Arguably the worst codex of the edition)
8th Edition Ork Codex November 2018 (Good Codex)
9th Edition Ork Codex 2021

The only faction which gets Codex love on a regular basis is the Space Marines.

3rd Edition SM Codex 1998
4th Edition SM Codex 2004
5th Edition SM Codex 2008
6th Edition SM Codex 2013
7th Edition SM Codex 2015
8th Edition SM Codex 2017
8th Edition SM II Codex 2019
9th Edition SM Codex 2019

and of course that is without any of the supplements or other Chapters. GW does what makes them money. And power armor makes money




The point is that NuGW isn't actually different than OldGW but is rather convincingly pretending they are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I mean, like I said, the longest period the IG EVER had to wait was 6 years (2003 -> 2009). If people's predictions are 14 months from October 2021? That's 2023. Do you know when the IG book was released? 2017.


And the same will go for other armies who are now languishing, Nidz, CWE, and so on. The only army that seems safe with frequent updates is Space Marines when you think about it.

I do believe people forgot that there was a pandemic, a BREXIT, and now a shipping issue which is delaying everything. These are truly exciting and tumultuous times we live in. So 6 years which is your guesstimate could have been much shorter if the world wasn't thrown upside down a la Magneto.


Right, but NuGW being "as good as" OldGW puts the kabosh to the idea that NuGW is actually different, right?

And yeah, I know COVID broke everything. All the more reason to take stopgap measures (like releasing update pdfs!) rather than blithely move along like nothing has changed.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:44:10


Post by: SemperMortis


 Unit1126PLL wrote:


The point is that NuGW isn't actually different than OldGW but is rather convincingly pretending they are.

Right, but NuGW being "as good as" OldGW puts the kabosh to the idea that NuGW is actually different, right?

And yeah, I know COVID broke everything. All the more reason to take stopgap measures (like releasing update pdfs!) rather than blithely move along like nothing has changed.


I am definitely not in the GW white knight category, but even I have to admit they have been significantly faster with releases etc of late. IG might get boned this time around, but compare that to prior editions, its not like they aren't doing anything, they just have a lot of stuff to release for just this one game.

4th edition GW had 11 codex get released. 11. And it took them 4-5 years to get those all done. 9th edition just so far is 13 codex/supplements and 2 expansions with this one being the 3rd, along with Black Templars getting released soon. And its been about 15 months. That is light speed compared to prior years.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:44:16


Post by: Ordana


 Eldarsif wrote:
I mean, like I said, the longest period the IG EVER had to wait was 6 years (2003 -> 2009). If people's predictions are 14 months from October 2021? That's 2023. Do you know when the IG book was released? 2017.


And the same will go for other armies who are now languishing, Nidz, CWE, and so on. The only army that seems safe with frequent updates is Space Marines when you think about it.

I do believe people forgot that there was a pandemic, a BREXIT, and now a shipping issue which is delaying everything. These are truly exciting and tumultuous times we live in. So 6 years which is your guesstimate could have been much shorter if the world wasn't thrown upside down a la Magneto.
We live in the 21st century. If you have so much trouble shipping physical codexes then sell them digitally. Heck you can give people that buy the digital codex as a stop-gap measure a discount to buying the physical book when you can get it out.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:44:40


Post by: Eldarsif


Right, but NuGW being "as good as" OldGW puts the kabosh to the idea that NuGW is actually different, right?

And yeah, I know COVID broke everything. All the more reason to take stopgap measures (like releasing update pdfs!) rather than blithely move along like nothing has changed.


On a socialist Star Trek principles I agree that it would be fantastic if GW would do something in the interim. I do not say that in jest even if it might sound so.

I do however maintain that NuGW is better at releasing than OldGW. The difference is that I do not accept that it is some binary value of "Same/Best", but rather that NuGW, or rather CurrentGW, is "somewhat better" in their release schedule than in the old days. You could say that I do believe in the usability of Floating Point values in measuring progress on a gradient rather than some Sithian-esque absolutes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ordana wrote:
 Eldarsif wrote:
I mean, like I said, the longest period the IG EVER had to wait was 6 years (2003 -> 2009). If people's predictions are 14 months from October 2021? That's 2023. Do you know when the IG book was released? 2017.


And the same will go for other armies who are now languishing, Nidz, CWE, and so on. The only army that seems safe with frequent updates is Space Marines when you think about it.

I do believe people forgot that there was a pandemic, a BREXIT, and now a shipping issue which is delaying everything. These are truly exciting and tumultuous times we live in. So 6 years which is your guesstimate could have been much shorter if the world wasn't thrown upside down a la Magneto.
We live in the 21st century. If you have so much trouble shipping physical codexes then sell them digitally. Heck you can give people that buy the digital codex as a stop-gap measure a discount to buying the physical book when you can get it out.


Oh definitely and I do feel one the more tragic turns in 9th has been the disappearance of the digital codexes. The App code system they have implemented currently does not do it for me honestly.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:47:43


Post by: Unit1126PLL


I'll lay off for now, as you're right, they're releasing things faster.

But they've crammed so much junk into the release schedule that any given book isn't coming out faster.

I don't really count campaign supplements as "releases" (since GW did those in spades back in the day as well, including free ones). As soon as we do, you actually get a pretty good stream of releases as well. They just didn't FEEL like releases.

I mean hell, go back and look at the 2003-2006 Chapter Approved (the ones that included entire army lists). IG got 3 separate updates (finalizing with the last Armored Company list in 2006).

But since they were mostly released as .pdfs for free on GW's website, people ignored them as "codex releases". It seems disingenuous to count them now just because they're physical books and aren't free.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:48:09


Post by: Ordana


SemperMortis wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:


The point is that NuGW isn't actually different than OldGW but is rather convincingly pretending they are.

Right, but NuGW being "as good as" OldGW puts the kabosh to the idea that NuGW is actually different, right?

And yeah, I know COVID broke everything. All the more reason to take stopgap measures (like releasing update pdfs!) rather than blithely move along like nothing has changed.


I am definitely not in the GW white knight category, but even I have to admit they have been significantly faster with releases etc of late. IG might get boned this time around, but compare that to prior editions, its not like they aren't doing anything, they just have a lot of stuff to release for just this one game.

4th edition GW had 11 codex get released. 11. And it took them 4-5 years to get those all done. 9th edition just so far is 13 codex/supplements and 2 expansions with this one being the 3rd, along with Black Templars getting released soon. And its been about 15 months. That is light speed compared to prior years.
yes, 9th is faster then 7th and before. But how does it stack up against 8th?
For a lot of 8th they were pumping out 2 books a month. That is the recent history that people know and 9th does not live up to that.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:49:10


Post by: Daedalus81


 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Right, but NuGW being "as good as" OldGW puts the kabosh to the idea that NuGW is actually different, right?

And yeah, I know COVID broke everything. All the more reason to take stopgap measures (like releasing update pdfs!) rather than blithely move along like nothing has changed.


Yup. Nothing changed.



IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:52:15


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Released October 2017 so it'd be five years. You can continue to claim it is slow if you ignore literally every other metric, so...huzzah?


Not really sure this is a great gotcha. Yes, that's *only* 5 years. But that's a very long time in a pretty power-creepy edition. With the exception of Custodes, old books are pretty uniformly garbage right now.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:52:17


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Right, but NuGW being "as good as" OldGW puts the kabosh to the idea that NuGW is actually different, right?

And yeah, I know COVID broke everything. All the more reason to take stopgap measures (like releasing update pdfs!) rather than blithely move along like nothing has changed.


Yup. Nothing changed.



Well, community engagement increased to levels that would be considered 'passable' if it were any other company.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:53:49


Post by: Eldarsif


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'll lay off for now, as you're right, they're releasing things faster.

But they've crammed so much junk into the release schedule that any given book isn't coming out faster.

I don't really count campaign supplements as "releases" (since GW did those in spades back in the day as well, including free ones). As soon as we do, you actually get a pretty good stream of releases as well. They just didn't FEEL like releases.

I mean hell, go back and look at the 2003-2006 Chapter Approved (the ones that included entire army lists). IG got 3 separate updates (finalizing with the last Armored Company list in 2006).

But since they were mostly released as .pdfs for free on GW's website, people ignored them as "codex releases". It seems disingenuous to count them now just because they're physical books and aren't free.


I agree that the campaign books could be much better. I got severely burned by the Psychic Awakening releases as they were too frequent, no meaningful story, and often minimal model releases and rules. The Broken Realms for AoS was somewhat better, but even then I just want more juicy rules and campaigns to play than those books offer. The greatest insult in my mind is that the Crusade book for the Campaign book is separate, forcing you - if you are into the faction and want to play crusade - to buy two expensive books.

Now that I think about it the campaign books that got me really excited were the Gathering Storm books. A bit light on rules, but the big hero boxes were awesome. Plus the story actually had a significant change on the universal landscape.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:53:53


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Released October 2017 so it'd be five years. You can continue to claim it is slow if you ignore literally every other metric, so...huzzah?


Not really sure this is a great gotcha. Yes, that's *only* 5 years. But that's a very long time in a pretty power-creepy edition. With the exception of Custodes, old books are pretty uniformly garbage right now.



Yea and even though IG happens to have caught the longest span that doesn't mean nothing changed, right?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:55:31


Post by: Kanluwen


If the choice comes down to "You get your book fast, damn the consequences!" and "Reworks are gonna happen"...I'll take the latter, thaaaaaaaaanks.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:55:37


Post by: SemperMortis


 Ordana wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:


The point is that NuGW isn't actually different than OldGW but is rather convincingly pretending they are.

Right, but NuGW being "as good as" OldGW puts the kabosh to the idea that NuGW is actually different, right?

And yeah, I know COVID broke everything. All the more reason to take stopgap measures (like releasing update pdfs!) rather than blithely move along like nothing has changed.


I am definitely not in the GW white knight category, but even I have to admit they have been significantly faster with releases etc of late. IG might get boned this time around, but compare that to prior editions, its not like they aren't doing anything, they just have a lot of stuff to release for just this one game.

4th edition GW had 11 codex get released. 11. And it took them 4-5 years to get those all done. 9th edition just so far is 13 codex/supplements and 2 expansions with this one being the 3rd, along with Black Templars getting released soon. And its been about 15 months. That is light speed compared to prior years.
yes, 9th is faster then 7th and before. But how does it stack up against 8th?
For a lot of 8th they were pumping out 2 books a month. That is the recent history that people know and 9th does not live up to that.


I think they released 48-50ish Codex/supplements/index and campaign books in 8th. And that was over the space of 3 years. I'll give them a break though because of the aforementioned Global Pandemic and lockdowns.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:57:15


Post by: Eldarsif


 Ordana wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:


The point is that NuGW isn't actually different than OldGW but is rather convincingly pretending they are.

Right, but NuGW being "as good as" OldGW puts the kabosh to the idea that NuGW is actually different, right?

And yeah, I know COVID broke everything. All the more reason to take stopgap measures (like releasing update pdfs!) rather than blithely move along like nothing has changed.


I am definitely not in the GW white knight category, but even I have to admit they have been significantly faster with releases etc of late. IG might get boned this time around, but compare that to prior editions, its not like they aren't doing anything, they just have a lot of stuff to release for just this one game.

4th edition GW had 11 codex get released. 11. And it took them 4-5 years to get those all done. 9th edition just so far is 13 codex/supplements and 2 expansions with this one being the 3rd, along with Black Templars getting released soon. And its been about 15 months. That is light speed compared to prior years.
yes, 9th is faster then 7th and before. But how does it stack up against 8th?
For a lot of 8th they were pumping out 2 books a month. That is the recent history that people know and 9th does not live up to that.


Again, pandemic, political stage, and whatnot changed a lot on how they operate, especially with their insistence on physical based sales. The problem with releasing new books digitally long before actual release is that they might not have available models to sell that were supposed to be in the new codex. Which opens another can of worms.

I imagine that if we didn't have the big events in our lives for the past two years we would have been seeing around 2 books a month. Even AoS with 3.0 is having an extremely slow start because of their slowed down release schedule.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 14:57:48


Post by: SemperMortis


 Kanluwen wrote:
If the choice comes down to "You get your book fast, damn the consequences!" and "Reworks are gonna happen"...I'll take the latter, thaaaaaaaaanks.


From the dumpster fire that was the Ork 9th edition codex, I think GW needs to step up production quality control. Bits were missing, horrible rules errors etc.

I mean...they literally created a specialist unit called "Trukk Boyz" but because they couldn't hire a writer who understand the ork codex the unit itself was unable to ride in trukkz


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 15:01:57


Post by: Hankovitch


Removed - no piracy please


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 15:05:39


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Yeah, counting all the junk GW came out with in 8th as "releases" means we have to count all the .pdf army lists (and their updates) that came out in 3rd and 4th as "releases".

This means Codex Feral Orks, the Kroot Mercenaries army list, the Codex Armageddon (and its two updates), the Armored Company List, Snakebite Orks, Speed Freak Orks (their own army list), and allllllllll the other stuff.

Orks and IG (and the dutiful Kroot Mercenaries) are the only ones I can remember because I've been researching them (playing 4th with an ork-playing friend) but it's really quite staggering how much free content is available back then that would be counted as a "release" in 8th because they stuffed it in a full-color hardback and charged money for it.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 15:22:07


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Kanluwen wrote:
If the choice comes down to "You get your book fast, damn the consequences!" and "Reworks are gonna happen"...I'll take the latter, thaaaaaaaaanks.


This isn't true though, because reworks aren't guaranteed. Look at Nids -- the monstrous creatures were garbage in 6e, they didn't get a 7e codex and remained garbage, and then with Index 8e, profiles were basically transcribed wholesale with no reworks and retained verbatim in the 8e codex. Who's to say that doesn't happen with IG in 2023 as well?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 15:24:17


Post by: Kanluwen


And by the flipside, look at the codices we've gotten in 9E.

If you want to pretend that Mechanicus is the same as it was before? That's fine. It's wrong, but it's fine that you want to do that.
Marines? Necrons?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 15:26:35


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Kanluwen wrote:
And by the flipside, look at the codices we've gotten in 9E.

If you want to pretend that Mechanicus is the same as it was before? That's fine. It's wrong, but it's fine that you want to do that.
Marines? Necrons?


Do you think Marines and Necron players are satisfied with their codices today? It sure doesn't seem that way. And yes, Admech is flat out busted. Yes, Guard could also get a flat out busted codex in 2023 too, but that's actually not a good outcome overall, we don't want more codices like that.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 15:26:46


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Anyone else remember that time that one inquisitor sent massed waves of cadians and deathwatch to octarius to forever lock the tyranids in combat?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 15:29:12


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Anyone else remember that time that one inquisitor sent massed waves of cadians and deathwatch to octarius to forever lock the tyranids in combat?


LMAO yeah I hate how the Imperium got shoehorned into the conflict. It was amazing and totally fluffy to have a Orks/Nids-exclusive conflict but we can't have something without da humies.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 17:12:30


Post by: PenitentJake


This is a tough one- I don't want to white knight either- a lot of the complaints are totally legitimate.

PA books WOULD have worked for me personally, but only in the mature stage of persistent edition. What I liked about the idea, was that it felt like it was supposed to be:

"Alright, all the dexes are out now, but we still want to be able to give EVERY faction new content EVERY year without invalidating the existing books. This will prevent us from having to blow up the entire edition and rerelease EVERYTHING all over again..."

But it didn't work out like that, and it broke me a little when it didn't. Because in that context, it could have worked, but as soon as you add edition churn back into the mix, everything went to hell.

For me, I think the key is that every faction gets a dex and at least one new model every edition. In Unit's example, while the period in YEARS is equal, the oldhammer 6 year wait meant that IG went a whole edition without a dex. Even though the 6 year wait this time around SUUUCKS (and it genuinely does- I'm not claiming otherwise), they are going to get a dex this ed... Unless the unthinkable happens and we do return to the days of have/ have not editions.

I also think 9th's campaign content should have waited til all the dexes were out. If it had, it would be like that pattern that PA SHOULD have established. Once the dexes are out, I far prefer campaign books driving the release cycle than an entirely new edition.

When the Charadon series happened, I equated it with Vigilus, which was also a campaign series released before all the dexes were out. I had figured it would be the only campaign until the dex cycle was done, then I had expected other campaign(s) in the style of PA... Hopefully to maintain a persistent edition.

And yet, here we are.

Still, there are some things about the new system which I think will be excellent additions to a campaign cycle system... But again, none of it really works until ALL the dexes are out.

The additions that I'm speaking of here are the vs. boxes, the prerelease boxes and the coordination between 40k and Kill Team.

In a world where all the dexes are out, one VS box (40k), one VS box (KT) and one pre-release box, along with one campaign book and one mission pack, plus a single unit for any faction in the campaign book that DIDN'T get models via the boxes per quarter. Finally, each quarter would also see releases for the individual kits that had been locked in boxes during the previous quarter.And you know, in a world where all the dexes were already out, as far as I'm concerned, that's a perfect way to manage a persistent edition. And I DO think this is what GW is working towards.

I think that doing this during the Codex release cycle was an attempt to test the system and train the customer so that once dexes were out, we would already be familiar with the quarterly, campaign driven release cycle.

And GW did plan to do all of these things this edition, all WHILE releasing 2 dexes per month! It was wicked ambitious. If it had worked, it would have been better than what we got, because people could choose to skip the campaign pieces and box sets and just focus on the dexes and individual models. But I still think it would have been just too much.

Unfortunately, the world fell apart. And remember, it isn't just the pandemic. It is:

- the Pandemic
- the international shipping container shortage
- Brexit
- petroleum producers limiting supply and driving up fuel costs, either because of a shortage of workers (quarantine/ lockdown) or, the more cynical possibility that they're doing it to raise the price of fuel in order to make up for the losses they suffered during the lockdowns.

Any one of these problems would have been manageable. Even any two of them would have been manageable. But all 4? Not a chance it wasn't going to wreck the release schedule.

As for the digital dexes: I 100% agree that this SHOULD have been GW's solution, and it was a terrible lost opportunity. One caveat though: E-Pubs suck- the fact that they can't scale on a PC because the interface FORCES the entire page to be displayed made me hate every digital purchase I ever made. I've never had a legible Epub, and I regret every purchase I ever made. I tried five different readers without any luck at all. And no, buying a device that only reads Epubs, in my view, is not a solution. I pretty much LIVE in front of a PC screen- the idea that I need a different device to enjoy a digital product is repugnant to me- I even hate cellphone APPS- using a 3 inch screen to do anything makes as much sense to me as a frontal lobotomy; anything that I could do on my phone (with the exception of phone calls, the clock and my MP3 player) can wait til I'm at home and I can enjoy it with a full screen and a real keyboard.

When Epubs were available, every single one of them should have come with a warning: you will need a dedicated reading device to enjoy this product, because we prefer to protect the integrity of the product by displaying a whole page rather than worry about the experience of any customer who is foolish enough to try and read the product on a PC.

On a side note: GW has proven they can get digital docs right(ish). The Warhammer Vault is fabulous- (except for the paywall part... BUT, if the vault included every current dex, there would be far fewer complaints about the subscription service, though of course the pricetag for the sub would be higher too).

Anyway, hopefully that didn't come across as white-knight; I acknowledge that the complaints are legit, and I even added my own (I really, really hate Epubs... Like, so much that it's hard to find the words to express it; sorry for the rant).



IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 17:40:29


Post by: Unit1126PLL


GW provided .pdfs to update army lists (for free no less!) in earlier editions, and that is a solved format.

EPUBs are less piratable, true, but the whole point of the .pdfs earlier in the day was that they were free anyways...


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 18:30:49


Post by: ccs


SemperMortis wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Sheesh, if GW waits 14 months to get the IG codex out, that'll be basically 2023.

That's 6 years between codexes, or exactly the same amount of time IG have had to wait for an update between their 3rd edition codex and their 5th edition codex. (and tied for the longest IG have ever gone without an update).

But NuGW has a faster release schedule and said they will never leave any armies in the dust again. Plus, they buffed Cadians in the interim, so it's all good /s


3rd Edition Ork Codex 1999
4th Edition Ork Codex 2008
5th Edition Ork Codex N/A
6th Edition Ork Codex N/A
7th Edition Ork Codex 2014 (Arguably the worst codex of the edition)
8th Edition Ork Codex November 2018 (Good Codex)
9th Edition Ork Codex 2021

The only faction which gets Codex love on a regular basis is the Space Marines.

3rd Edition SM Codex 1998
4th Edition SM Codex 2004
5th Edition SM Codex 2008
6th Edition SM Codex 2013
7th Edition SM Codex 2015
8th Edition SM Codex 2017
8th Edition SM II Codex 2019
9th Edition SM Codex 2019

and of course that is without any of the supplements or other Chapters. GW does what makes them money. And power armor makes money




You were doing so well on the dates until that last one....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Oh, and here I was thinking they'd changed and would make sure to update codexes more quickly and that their words were more than just "ok, ok, sisters are a real army now".


WHY do you keep drinking the Marketing Kool-Aid??


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 19:23:44


Post by: SemperMortis


My mistake, I read the wrong date its 2020...so they went August 2019 to...October 2020

A full year and 2 months between


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 20:39:58


Post by: waefre_1


New IG Codex...


...Supplement


I mean, technically, yes, it is better than nothing by virtue of being not nothing itself (and maybe it ends up being great), but...maybe don't wake me unless there's something worth being awake for, y'know?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 21:26:18


Post by: Tyel


Feel the late release of codexes would be better received if it had a reasonably healthy wave of models with it.

Waiting years and then getting a character model and a book that could have come out years earlier feels kind of sad.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 22:32:01


Post by: Kanluwen


Tyel wrote:
Feel the late release of codexes would be better received if it had a reasonably healthy wave of models with it.

Right now? The rumour, which is from the so far 99/100% accurate source, is that Cadians are getting a redone Shock Troop kit, plastic Kasrkin, and alongside of a new tank.

The rumour for Death Korps is that there's something like 3-4 boxes and an equivalent number of blisters to come.

I know that a late codex release would not be well received if they did anything that mothballed peoples' existing units or the like. Which Guard really needs to have happen, and which if the Veteran Guardsman rules from Kill Team are any kind of a teaser for--they're planning on doing.
Waiting years and then getting a character model and a book that could have come out years earlier feels kind of sad.

Expecting every single time for a book to necessitate "waves of models" is always going to make you feel disappointed.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 22:36:38


Post by: H.B.M.C.


But they're a miniatures company!!!


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/12 22:47:44


Post by: Gert


I think it depends on the army in question.
Tsons and DG are an example of very recent model lines, both of which didn't really need anything huge, although I do think Tsons took the bullet for being the first Marked Legion faction. There could and should have easily been some Havoc equivalent or something else and I think it's pretty obvious this was realised and an "OH " moment was had in 8th when the Codex got bolstered by AoS ported units. Druhkari could have finally axed all of the finecast stuff but hey ho.
But for the other releases so far in 9th? Marines got X as always, Orks got quite a bit, Necrons got a big revamp, Admech are still pretty new and got quite a bit very recently IIRC, and Sisters got a full release very late into 8th and then got more in 9th.
For non-9th armies we have:
Custodes - very new range.
GSC - very new range.
Craftworlds - rumoured to be getting a revamp.
CSM - again a lot of new stuff but also rumoured for revamps.
Daemons - a solid range with stuff that's aged fine but also has seen lots of new kits.
Nids - not new but IMO has aged fine apart from a few outliers.
Guard - difficult because lots is fine but lots of other stuff has aged badly *cough*catachans*cough*.
Knights/Chaos Knights - both very new model lines but also very intentionally small lines.
T'au - again a bit of a mixed bag because they've not got a lot super recently but the last revamp did a lot of good for the range. pretty much just the non-T'au aliens that look dated.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 01:16:32


Post by: Kanluwen


Mechanicus was a weird situation. As much as it's been harped upon that "they were made to be a single book!", that is not the way the sculptors have talked about the projects. Skitarii was, according to Goodwin, designed as a singular range and Cult was designed as a singular range.

Matters were not helped that they did this weird staggered release. We saw the Skorpius tank/transport come out with Apocalypse, the Techpriest Manipulus was a Kill Team exclusive and then the Serberys, Pteraxii, and Archaeopter came out with the Manipulus solo release and the first time that the Skorpius saw its rules in a physical book rather than just the instruction sheet with Engine War.

Then come the new 9E AdMech book and the lone Marshal release.

Guard has something big coming. I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed when it drops though.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 03:15:58


Post by: tneva82


SemperMortis wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
If the choice comes down to "You get your book fast, damn the consequences!" and "Reworks are gonna happen"...I'll take the latter, thaaaaaaaaanks.


From the dumpster fire that was the Ork 9th edition codex, I think GW needs to step up production quality control. Bits were missing, horrible rules errors etc.

I mean...they literally created a specialist unit called "Trukk Boyz" but because they couldn't hire a writer who understand the ork codex the unit itself was unable to ride in trukkz


That's nothing new and won't change. Gw has yet to make book that doesn'"t need errata


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 03:24:17


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Kanluwen wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Feel the late release of codexes would be better received if it had a reasonably healthy wave of models with it.

Right now? The rumour, which is from the so far 99/100% accurate source, is that Cadians are getting a redone Shock Troop kit, plastic Kasrkin, and alongside of a new tank.

The rumour for Death Korps is that there's something like 3-4 boxes and an equivalent number of blisters to come.

I know that a late codex release would not be well received if they did anything that mothballed peoples' existing units or the like. Which Guard really needs to have happen, and which if the Veteran Guardsman rules from Kill Team are any kind of a teaser for--they're planning on doing.
Waiting years and then getting a character model and a book that could have come out years earlier feels kind of sad.

Expecting every single time for a book to necessitate "waves of models" is always going to make you feel disappointed.


So Cadians and Death Korps are getting stuff... I hope you mean other guard when you say "cadians" (even though Kasrkin and Shock Troops are Cadia-exclusive units...)

Otherwise I will definitely be disappointed. It would be like the SM coming out but with all the new models being for Iron Hands and the Emperor's Executioners exclusively


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 03:38:09


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I hope you mean other guard when you say "cadians"
He doesn't:

 Kanluwen wrote:

This isn't for Guard players.

It's for Cadian players.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 03:38:13


Post by: Kanluwen


Nope, the rumour was specific to the Cadians. There's apparently artwork of the redesign in the Kill Team Core book.

They have a bit more of a "ragged" look to them.

Catachans are supposedly getting a KT box next year, with Lictors as their opposition.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 03:43:51


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Welp, I would rather have it fast than reworked, if the rework only applies to 10% of the army.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 03:50:32


Post by: Kanluwen


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Welp, I would rather have it fast than reworked, if the rework only applies to 10% of the army.

When I'm saying "rework" with regards to the codex, I'm referring to the army itself.

I am fairly convinced at this point that we're going to see something Big happening for Guard. They would have just pushed out some updated kits and a book or the DKoK boxes and been done with it otherwise. There's no sign of a codex on the horizon, it just keeps seeming like they're rolling out some iconic regiments in a method that would work under the current book.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 04:33:21


Post by: Unit1126PLL


So not just all Cadians then?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 04:48:13


Post by: Kanluwen


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So not just all Cadians then?

No...but this thing literally labeled "Codex Supplement: Cadia" is.

The rumoured releases seem to be staggered. How or why remains to be known. Best guess is they don't want to just drop three whole regiments worth of 'core' plastic kits in one go.

Additionally if one goes and looks into the KT: Core book...it looks like they've done a redesign on Steel Legion and Tallarn as well. They both look aces though!


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 13:02:00


Post by: waefre_1


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Welp, I would rather have it fast than reworked, if the rework only applies to 10% of the army.

When I'm saying "rework" with regards to the codex, I'm referring to the army itself.

I am fairly convinced at this point that we're going to see something Big happening for Guard. They would have just pushed out some updated kits and a book or the DKoK boxes and been done with it otherwise. There's no sign of a codex on the horizon, it just keeps seeming like they're rolling out some iconic regiments in a method that would work under the current book.

Genuine question, do you have any evidence for us getting "Something Big" beyond that you don't think GW would have done things this way if there weren't?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 13:07:45


Post by: Dudeface


 waefre_1 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Welp, I would rather have it fast than reworked, if the rework only applies to 10% of the army.

When I'm saying "rework" with regards to the codex, I'm referring to the army itself.

I am fairly convinced at this point that we're going to see something Big happening for Guard. They would have just pushed out some updated kits and a book or the DKoK boxes and been done with it otherwise. There's no sign of a codex on the horizon, it just keeps seeming like they're rolling out some iconic regiments in a method that would work under the current book.

Genuine question, do you have any evidence for us getting "Something Big" beyond that you don't think GW would have done things this way if there weren't?


A very big and reliable rumour dump from a few months ago said there were notable guard releases for the back end of next year iirc.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 14:49:13


Post by: BlackoCatto


Why not fix a regiment with a supplement that barely works this edition like Mordian which requires you now to use a CP to even use a part its regimental trait. A trait that only works now once.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 15:00:01


Post by: Dudeface


 BlackoCatto wrote:
Why not fix a regiment with a supplement that barely works this edition like Mordian which requires you now to use a CP to even use a part its regimental trait. A trait that only works now once.


Because they don't sell Mordians as the default models, crap reason but a logical one.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 15:00:06


Post by: Daedalus81


Probably because Cadians are the most popular ( because of the kit availability ).



IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 15:10:28


Post by: Insectum7


I'd rather not drag this game any further into supplement hell.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 15:53:41


Post by: waefre_1


Dudeface wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Welp, I would rather have it fast than reworked, if the rework only applies to 10% of the army.

When I'm saying "rework" with regards to the codex, I'm referring to the army itself.

I am fairly convinced at this point that we're going to see something Big happening for Guard. They would have just pushed out some updated kits and a book or the DKoK boxes and been done with it otherwise. There's no sign of a codex on the horizon, it just keeps seeming like they're rolling out some iconic regiments in a method that would work under the current book.

Genuine question, do you have any evidence for us getting "Something Big" beyond that you don't think GW would have done things this way if there weren't?


A very big and reliable rumour dump from a few months ago said there were notable guard releases for the back end of next year iirc.

That's the one that predicted "two new regiments, veterans, kasrkin, and a vehicle 'between a Leman Russ and a Baneblade'", right? I thought there was talk that two regiments were updated Catachan + plastic Krieg - combine that with Kasrkin being a redo of an old sculpt, and that leaves the veterans (which could be just the Cadian upgrade sprue we got earlier in the year plus some new bodies) and the tank (which screams "plastic Macharius/Malcador")...idk, I don't feel like that would really qualify as "Something Big" (save in the literal sense for the not!Macharius/Malcador), considering how many kits we've lost over the years. Not without something more concrete to go on.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 15:56:14


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Can someone tell me what the count is for books needed if I want to play my Flesh Tearers in a tourney? I'm seeing Codex, Suppliment, BRB, 3 FAQs, and Imperial Armor? Plus warzone books?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 16:02:12


Post by: Kanluwen


Kasrkin "being a redo of an old sculpt" is a bit more than that, given that the unit hasn't had rules since C: Eye of Terror. They were suggested models for the Grenadiers option in a Cadian army, then kinda/sorta pushed at us for the Carapace armored "Grenadier Veterans" option.

Right now it's just a gut feeling. The Veteran Guardsman Kill Team rules felt very much like a tease of what might be coming down the road. The shift in the box photos for the new Cadian Shock Troop squad is also an interesting one--they've armed them up as a Veteran squad in terms of special weapons rather than standard Infantry Squads. Oh and they didn't pack a Heavy Weapons Team in there despite the option to.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 16:14:28


Post by: Gert


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can someone tell me what the count is for books needed if I want to play my Flesh Tearers in a tourney? I'm seeing Codex, Suppliment, BRB, 3 FAQs, and Imperial Armor? Plus warzone books?

It depends on what you've taken.
The basic requirements are BRB and SM Codex. If you're taking any FT specific stuff like Seth or Death Company then you'll need the BA Supplement. I don't count FAQ's since you can just slot them inside the Codex cover easily enough. You only need IA if you've taken FW units. Anyone who's saying you need 100 books for a 9th Ed army like FT is talking out their rear.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 16:32:49


Post by: dubman



i think, in subject of Tyranids, dont get me wrong i'm not enemy of this army


its just, i think they should have various abilities despite what the GW design team say


is in the key words of the mechanics of the game, "as they understand this"


i think, lots of units, especially juggernaut units should be able to walk on the buildings



why a Dominatrix cant jump off the roof, i dont understand


especially , if the army has , cults and mutations and so on - but i never had time to read Tyranid codex


there , is limits of how inhuman can be rulebook,


or i could say i would see more flying units, in Nids army


more shooting, too






IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 16:49:59


Post by: Daedalus81


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can someone tell me what the count is for books needed if I want to play my Flesh Tearers in a tourney? I'm seeing Codex, Suppliment, BRB, 3 FAQs, and Imperial Armor? Plus warzone books?


No one brings the BRB. FAQs are not a book. IA is only if you want those units and again...no one brings that book.

Do you want to know what really happens at tournaments? People print off the output from Battlescribe and hand it t their opponent and then maybe once or twice every other game we'll check a book for a strat.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 17:12:44


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Daedalus81 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can someone tell me what the count is for books needed if I want to play my Flesh Tearers in a tourney? I'm seeing Codex, Suppliment, BRB, 3 FAQs, and Imperial Armor? Plus warzone books?


No one brings the BRB. FAQs are not a book. IA is only if you want those units and again...no one brings that book.

Do you want to know what really happens at tournaments? People print off the output from Battlescribe and hand it t their opponent and then maybe once or twice every other game we'll check a book for a strat.


Yeah, I don't disagree with people that it's annoying to have rules from many different sources, and it would be inconvenient to bring 3+ books to a game, but basically nobody does it. That's always felt like a pretty hollow thing to complain about.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 17:43:20


Post by: Niiai


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
"Should I put this trait in to double the attacks a succubus can do? I'm sure its fine.'
"Should we give Transhuman Physiology and All Is Dust to Guardsmen? I'm sure it's fine."



Permanent transhuman would be a good hive mind trait. I like it.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 18:02:01


Post by: Voss


 Niiai wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
"Should I put this trait in to double the attacks a succubus can do? I'm sure its fine.'
"Should we give Transhuman Physiology and All Is Dust to Guardsmen? I'm sure it's fine."



Permanent transhuman would be a good hive mind trait. I like it.


Medium bugs definitely need something- its the army I really want to play, but its a 'put models down, pick up causalities' army, simply because t4, 3w and ~4+ save is terrible in the face of 9th edition firepower.

I definitely think all these 'IF leviathan' abilities are a bad sign for the codex. For some reason (vague optimism), I was hoping not to see color-coded 'have and have nots' outside marine books.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 18:27:47


Post by: shortymcnostrill


I like it. Transhuman physiology works on a 1-3, regular human physiology on a 1-2. Makes me wonder if hoping for a 1-4 for the nids' superhuman physiology would be too much?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 18:36:06


Post by: Ordana


shortymcnostrill wrote:
I like it. Transhuman physiology works on a 1-3, regular human physiology on a 1-2. Makes me wonder if hoping for a 1-4 for the nids' superhuman physiology would be too much?
yes, yes it probably would :p

But if we are going to fix toughness issues through handing out transhuman like candy then yeah sure give Nid monsters Transhuman.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 18:38:40


Post by: Unit1126PLL


I wonder what kind of physiology an actual tank would have...

oh wait, that's right, none. Silly me they get wounded like plebs.

(A shadowsword wounds a Land Raider more easily than a Cadian Conscript)...


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 18:56:46


Post by: shortymcnostrill


I'd be happy to let you pay 1cp for a custom stratagem called Tankhuman Physiology (crew counts too!), letting all wound rolls fail on a one


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 19:23:26


Post by: waefre_1


shortymcnostrill wrote:
I'd be happy to let you pay 1cp for a custom stratagem called Tankhuman Physiology (crew counts too!), letting all wound rolls fail on a one

Why, that's mighty kind of you, I'll ju...
...waiiiiiiiiiiiit


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 19:23:30


Post by: Kanluwen


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I wonder what kind of physiology an actual tank would have...

oh wait, that's right, none. Silly me they get wounded like plebs.

(A shadowsword wounds a Land Raider more easily than a Cadian Conscript)...

"A shadowsword wounds a Land Raider(with no stratagems or buffs or anything) more easily than a Cadian Conscript(with a stratagem burnt on it)".

That should be the correct statement, right?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 19:27:11


Post by: the_scotsman


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
"Should I put this trait in to double the attacks a succubus can do? I'm sure its fine.'
"Should we give Transhuman Physiology and All Is Dust to Guardsmen? I'm sure it's fine."



I mean, better bet to just slap it on a faction with like a 35% wr than one that...youuuu do not know because the new codex is coming out concurrently with the super-strats?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 22:44:58


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
(A shadowsword wounds a Land Raider more easily than a Cadian Conscript)...
And this is why I hate Transhuman and all related rules, and especially this new one.

"It's meant to show Cadians digging in and not breaking like their world did!"

Oh rack off! It's a bad rule written by people who should know better by now.



IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 23:33:25


Post by: Gadzilla666


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
(A shadowsword wounds a Land Raider more easily than a Cadian Conscript)...
And this is why I hate Transhuman and all related rules, and especially this new one.

"It's meant to show Cadians digging in and not breaking like their world did!"

Oh rack off! It's a bad rule written by people who should know better by now.


Agreed, but I hate the reasoning behind Transhuman Physiology sooooo much more. "Cawl stuffed primaris with extra organs so they're SUPER TOUGH compared to "normal" Astartes!". Oh . I don't care how many extra bits Cawl stuck in them. When my 15 foot tall 14 ton dreadnought comes in swinging its 6 foot long power field sheathed chainsaws at them that should only mean there's more loyalist guts spread all over the place, not less. Tougher against autocannons and heavy bolters? Sure. But weapons designed to kill tanks? Hell no. There should be a cut off where it stops working, like Prophets of Flesh.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/13 23:39:39


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Transhuman should be something that:

1. You use in the Command Phase.
2. You pick a unit of Primaris Marines.
3. You pay the X command points (cost is a balance issue, I'm not going to get into a specific figure).
4. The unit's special Cawl-Pattern organs go into overdrive, and the unit cannot be wounded on better than a 4+, and they get +1" to Move/Advance/Charge.
5. It lasts until your next Command Phase, at which point that unit takes D3 Mortal Wounds, and cannot be selected to use that strat again.




IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 00:09:33


Post by: Gadzilla666


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Transhuman should be something that:

1. You use in the Command Phase.
2. You pick a unit of Primaris Marines.
3. You pay the X command points (cost is a balance issue, I'm not going to get into a specific figure).
4. The unit's special Cawl-Pattern organs go into overdrive, and the unit cannot be wounded on better than a 4+, and they get +1" to Move/Advance/Charge.
5. It lasts until your next Command Phase, at which point that unit takes D3 Mortal Wounds, and cannot be selected to use that strat again.



I could see that, but the "only wounded on a 4+" needs to stop once an attack's S = 2× or more of the unit's Toughness. All of the extra organs in the world won't help you once you take a melta shot to the face or the Demolisher Cannon shell drops on your head.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 00:15:05


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Which is why we need USRs:

Unit USRs
Unnatural Toughness (X): Cannot be wounded by a result lower than the value in parentheses.

Insane Durability (X): Reduces all Damage suffered by the value in the parentheses (to a min of 1?).

Weapon USRs
High Impact: This weapon ignores the Unnatural Toughness rule and wounds based on regular Strength vs Toughness.

Devastating (X): Ignores levels of Insane Durability equal to number listed in parentheses.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 00:22:38


Post by: Gadzilla666


@H.B.M.C: Agreed.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 02:30:24


Post by: Tyran


So we need more special rules to negate special rules...

And people complain about bloat.

You do have a point about the USRs, but USRs that negate USRs is just going insane in the other way.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 02:41:27


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Tyran wrote:
So we need more special rules to negate special rules...

And people complain about bloat.
I consider this a non-sequitur, or a complete misunderstanding of what is meant by 'bloat'.

 Tyran wrote:
You do have a point about the USRs, but USRs that negate USRs is just going insane in the other way.
Not even slightly. It's actually the sane way to do it. The insane way is having units that specifically ignore special rules, and then special rules that ignore those rules, and on and on we go. That's how you get rules bloat.

What I'm proposing is a simple scale:

1. This is a standard game rule (eg. compare Strength vs Toughness to determine the required result when rolling To Wound).
2. This is a special rule (Can only be Wounded on an X+, regardless of comparative Strength/Toughness).
3. This is a special rule that negates the one above (This weapon always wounds on comparative Strength/Toughness).

And that's where it stops.

It allows you to have the general rule that affects everybody normally (ie. how people take wounding hits), provides a special place for units that are so tough that they shouldn't be taking damage in the normal manner (ie. big honkin' monsters!), but provides an 'out' for weapons that are so powerful that they would normally would the things that normally ignore lesser weapons (ie. a Volcano Cannon vs a Daemon Primarch).

Anything beyond (a Marine Strike Cruiser) just wouldn't be within the scope of the game.

There are always going to be exceptions to exceptions; that's how rules tend to work. The key is to codify them within a consistent and concise system rather than let them run rampant with unique rules scattered to the winds. Then you do so in a way that scales as well as possible for the variety of units that you have included within your game, and ensure that there is enough granularity and stratification without bogging the game down in needless minute differences (this is why scalable (X) rules work so well). You will have to make compromises along the way*, but eventually you will can achieve something close to 'imperfect balance'.

And finally, with all this, you get to save the really special rules - the ones that exist outside of a universal structure - for the things that actually deserve them (special characters, narrative scenarios/units, special missions, etc.).


*eg. Orks really should have a FNP style save to show their inherent ability to flat out ignore grievous injuries, but in an army that can take so many models that would lengthen the game and add very little, so GW made 'em T5 instead - not perfect, but it'll do!



IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 03:13:08


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I wonder what kind of physiology an actual tank would have...

oh wait, that's right, none. Silly me they get wounded like plebs.

(A shadowsword wounds a Land Raider more easily than a Cadian Conscript)...

"A shadowsword wounds a Land Raider(with no stratagems or buffs or anything) more easily than a Cadian Conscript(with a stratagem burnt on it)".

That should be the correct statement, right?


Sorry can you put that in lore terms for me?

I know what is happening in the game state (the Doylist or "out of universe" explanation). My critique is that I don't understand what is happening in the narrative (in other words I don't understand the abstraction). I don't get the Watsonian (in-universe) explanation.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 03:21:49


Post by: H.B.M.C.


"The planet broke before the Guard did!"

There's your in-universe explanation.

Yes it's terrible. So is the new rule!


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 03:21:52


Post by: Kanluwen


Well, since wounding represents anything from a critical injury to simply being on the outskirts of it...


The Land Raider was such a large target that the Shadowsword's Volcano Cannon, even winging it, suffered damage.
The Whiteshield was just a person, on foot, that was at the edge of the beam's effective area.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 03:26:03


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Kanluwen wrote:
Well, since wounding represents anything from a critical injury to simply being on the outskirts of it...


The Land Raider was such a large target that the Shadowsword's Volcano Cannon, even winging it, suffered damage.
The Whiteshield was just a person, on foot, that was at the edge of the beam's effective area.


Ah, yes, well I am glad my Armageddon Hive Milita conscripts are also just people who are on foot, and look forwards to the same abstraction being consistently applied!


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 03:34:37


Post by: Kanluwen


Sorry, you're not Cadians.

Your Hive Militia aren't wearing the appropriate uniforms. Everyone knows Cadian fatigues are top-shelf quality that won't catch fire from flashburns accompanying Volcano Cannon shots.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 03:35:36


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Kanluwen wrote:
Sorry, you're not Cadians.

Your Hive Militia aren't wearing the appropriate uniforms. Everyone knows Cadian fatigues are top-shelf quality that won't catch fire from flashburns accompanying Volcano Cannon shots.


I couldn't have illustrated the absurdity of this stratagem better myself! Bravo!


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 03:51:16


Post by: Kanluwen


The absurdity of it is that you've continued to complain about it so much while using an edge case("Cadian Conscripts being shot at by a Shadowsword!1!1") and also being someone who usually complains about a lack of "realism" while also ignoring the abstraction that comes from wargames.

Casualties don't necessarily mean "dead". It's models being no longer combat-effective. A Shadowsword's main cannon is described as being a focused laser. It's a big honkin' laser beam certainly...but there's a space for the argument that it's not going to just meatchunk everything around the beam when it hits.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 03:55:08


Post by: H.B.M.C.


You're only defending this because you love your Cadians so very very much.

At least be honest about it.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 03:55:26


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Kanluwen wrote:
The absurdity of it is that you've continued to complain about it so much while using an edge case("Cadian Conscripts being shot at by a Shadowsword!1!1") and also being someone who usually complains about a lack of "realism" while also ignoring the abstraction that comes from wargames.

Casualties don't necessarily mean "dead". It's models being no longer combat-effective. A Shadowsword's main cannon is described as being a focused laser. It's a big honkin' laser beam certainly...but there's a space for the argument that it's not going to just meatchunk everything around the beam when it hits.


And for Cadians (but only one squad in a battle at a time, regardless of how big it is!) the likelyhood they will not be meatchunked by the cannon is literally doubled!

This is clearly an abstraction of...

well it obviously represents...

Er, well you can narratively explain it by....

...

Cadians are literally twice as hard to wound with volcano cannons as Mordians, Vostroyans, heck, even Baneblades.

But only one squad now and again, however big that battle is.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 03:56:38


Post by: Kanluwen


Murphy's Law is a harsh mistress.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 03:58:33


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Kanluwen wrote:
Murphy's Law is a harsh mistress.


But only to people shooting at Cadians.

Murphy takes the day off for other targets..


(Except Primaris, can't forget them)


Yay abstraction! Consistency! Narrative!


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 03:59:04


Post by: Kanluwen


Just play Cadians if you want the bonus, none of us care.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 04:00:03


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Kanluwen wrote:
Just play Cadians if you want the bonus, none of us care.

Good talk!


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 04:13:25


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Kanluwen wrote:
Just play Cadians if you want the bonus, none of us care.
That's not true. You clearly care quite a bit. No one would go the sanity-shattering levels of cognitive dissonance that you manage defending this stuff if they didn't care.

You care deeply.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 04:20:37


Post by: Kanluwen


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Just play Cadians if you want the bonus, none of us care.

Good talk!

What do you want? Me to say that it's "silly"?

Cool. It's silly. There's a bunch of things that need to happen to make it so choices matter more. And spoiler...it's going to have to start with actually differentiating between "Conscripts" and "Infantry Squads". Or between "Light", "Medium", and "Heavy" Infantry types as squads.

But meh. You just want to be upset over some random bit.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 04:24:43


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Kanluwen wrote:
But meh. You just want to be upset over some random bit.
That's all you can do. Claim someone "wants" to be upset and then completely disregard (or misunderstand) the reasons why it makes them unhappy.

Complete and utter intellectual dishonesty. Bad faith in every sense of the expression.

And yes, I know you have me on ignore. Honestly, that makes this all the more fun for me.



IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 05:09:34


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Kanluwen wrote:
The absurdity of it is that you've continued to complain about it so much while using an edge case("Cadian Conscripts being shot at by a Shadowsword!1!1") and also being someone who usually complains about a lack of "realism" while also ignoring the abstraction that comes from wargames.

Casualties don't necessarily mean "dead". It's models being no longer combat-effective. A Shadowsword's main cannon is described as being a focused laser. It's a big honkin' laser beam certainly...but there's a space for the argument that it's not going to just meatchunk everything around the beam when it hits.

Ok, you don't like the Volcano Cannon example, go back to my example of a charging chainclaw Contemptor but replace [Primaris] with [Cadians]: 15 feet tall, 14 tons, 6 foot chainclaws enveloped in power fields powered by hydraulics and servos. It hits 3 times (so no, "they dodged it!" excuses). What exactly makes those Cadians less likely to get spread all over the place than an Ork? Those "top-shelf" combat fatigues?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 05:35:47


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
What exactly makes those Cadians less likely to get spread all over the place than an Ork?
Kan plays Cadians, so he doesn't care. That's the simple answer. He doesn't want to admit it (and certainly never would), but that's the truth.




IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 06:07:21


Post by: Jarms48


This is basically just the Cadian supplement from 7th edition all over again. Any Guard player wanting to remain competitive until our next codex will be forced to play as them.

I'm putting my cards on the table now, we're going to get:
- 2 more Cadian relics
- 2 more Cadian WT's.
- At least 5 more stratagems, some potentially linking to the Whiteshield keyword.
- 1 Army of Renown for Cadians. Possibly also linking to Whiteshields.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 07:35:19


Post by: Dudeface


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Just play Cadians if you want the bonus, none of us care.

Good talk!

What do you want? Me to say that it's "silly"?

Cool. It's silly. There's a bunch of things that need to happen to make it so choices matter more. And spoiler...it's going to have to start with actually differentiating between "Conscripts" and "Infantry Squads". Or between "Light", "Medium", and "Heavy" Infantry types as squads.

But meh. You just want to be upset over some random bit.


I see both sides, on one hand they made sure any unit can hurt any unit in 8th onwards to "even the field" then they're trying to backpeddle by making the cheapest chappies human infantry harder to kill than a lot of elite armoured heavy infantry.

The fact it's tied to a subfaction specific strat for 1 type of infantry is just odd, it breaks the abstraction away from any base in reality it might have had.

I'm the flip side, this is warhammer, it's not a hyper realistic war sim and they want to give a subfaction a little treat and some fun extras, which I'm all for, but they maybe shouldn't just give 1 subfaction the perks as it makes them the most appealing by default.

So a little of column A and a little of B for me, but I think all subfactions should get something or none do. Likewise this 1 example is just a bit of a lazy hamfist strat to make people buy lots of conscripts more than anything.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 07:40:32


Post by: a_typical_hero


This is such a nothing burger for me, but after reading the reactions of some of you, I can understand better why you dislike the game in it's current state so much.

I don't agree at all, but I understand your own reasoning.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 14:05:47


Post by: Kanluwen


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
The absurdity of it is that you've continued to complain about it so much while using an edge case("Cadian Conscripts being shot at by a Shadowsword!1!1") and also being someone who usually complains about a lack of "realism" while also ignoring the abstraction that comes from wargames.

Casualties don't necessarily mean "dead". It's models being no longer combat-effective. A Shadowsword's main cannon is described as being a focused laser. It's a big honkin' laser beam certainly...but there's a space for the argument that it's not going to just meatchunk everything around the beam when it hits.

Ok, you don't like the Volcano Cannon example, go back to my example of a charging chainclaw Contemptor but replace [Primaris] with [Cadians]: 15 feet tall, 14 tons, 6 foot chainclaws enveloped in power fields powered by hydraulics and servos. It hits 3 times (so no, "they dodged it!" excuses). What exactly makes those Cadians less likely to get spread all over the place than an Ork? Those "top-shelf" combat fatigues?

Those 3 hits are spread across a unit, not to a single model. The hits might be grazes, etc.

This isn't D&D where you're making called shots to specific body parts. You're not making critical hits that just pop the guy in question.

Hitting means an attack has connected. Wounding means it wounded. Saves are a combination of armor and dodging.

Have fun with this new knowledge.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 14:08:33


Post by: JNAProductions


And, to be fair, a single Volcano Cannon wound (capable of turning a Leman Russ into mere scrap metal) can only kill ONE Grot or Guardsman.

The game doesn’t reflect the narrative well-this might be an egregious example, but it certainly ain’t the only one.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 14:40:49


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
The absurdity of it is that you've continued to complain about it so much while using an edge case("Cadian Conscripts being shot at by a Shadowsword!1!1") and also being someone who usually complains about a lack of "realism" while also ignoring the abstraction that comes from wargames.

Casualties don't necessarily mean "dead". It's models being no longer combat-effective. A Shadowsword's main cannon is described as being a focused laser. It's a big honkin' laser beam certainly...but there's a space for the argument that it's not going to just meatchunk everything around the beam when it hits.

Ok, you don't like the Volcano Cannon example, go back to my example of a charging chainclaw Contemptor but replace [Primaris] with [Cadians]: 15 feet tall, 14 tons, 6 foot chainclaws enveloped in power fields powered by hydraulics and servos. It hits 3 times (so no, "they dodged it!" excuses). What exactly makes those Cadians less likely to get spread all over the place than an Ork? Those "top-shelf" combat fatigues?

Those 3 hits are spread across a unit, not to a single model. The hits might be grazes, etc.

This isn't D&D where you're making called shots to specific body parts. You're not making critical hits that just pop the guy in question.

Hitting means an attack has connected. Wounding means it wounded. Saves are a combination of armor and dodging.

Have fun with this new knowledge.

And that answers the question not one bit. The hits connected. AP-4 means no save. No dodging or armour. So what makes your little Cadians harder to wound than an Ork? Or a Rhino? What stops them having their entrails spread all over the battlefield like The Legions spread their pitiful little planet across the Void? What exactly is this rule abstracting?


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 14:52:04


Post by: Kanluwen


 Gadzilla666 wrote:

And that answers the question not one bit. The hits connected. AP-4 means no save. No dodging or armour. So what makes your little Cadians harder to wound than an Ork? Or a Rhino?

Ever tried to squash a fly with bare hands?

There's a reason mankind created that pinnacle of innovation, the rolled up newspaper.

Also, because Cadia's the best. Deal with it.
What stops them having their entrails spread all over the battlefield like The Legions spread their pitiful little planet across the Void?

Oh so we're doing RP stuff too now?

Hey, remember when The Legions had to try 13 times to get past one planet of "little Cadians"?
What exactly is this rule abstracting?

Once again, wounding =!= "entrails spread all over the battlefield".




IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 15:18:37


Post by: Gadzilla666


Kanluwen wrote:Once again, wounding =!= "entrails spread all over the battlefield".

It does if there's no save. But I think I have my answer right here.

Kanluwen wrote:Also, because Cadia's the best. Deal with it.

Guess H.B.M.C. was right.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
What exactly makes those Cadians less likely to get spread all over the place than an Ork?
Kan plays Cadians, so he doesn't care. That's the simple answer. He doesn't want to admit it (and certainly never would), but that's the truth.



I see there's no point continuing this. Hope this stratagem and the rest of what Cadians get in this book keep the Guard going until they get their 9th edition codex and you have fun with it. Enjoy.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 15:48:15


Post by: waefre_1


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

And that answers the question not one bit. The hits connected. AP-4 means no save. No dodging or armour. So what makes your little Cadians harder to wound than an Ork? Or a Rhino?

Ever tried to squash a fly with bare hands?

Yes. Either I miss (due to hairs the fly has which can detect the minute pressure variations that precede something big intersecting with the fly's temporospatial coordinates), or the fly gets squished. Usually the latter


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 15:54:31


Post by: Kanluwen


There's no answer you'd find acceptable, because you've chosen to come at this from the "personally offended" starting background.

I don't complain about Ork buggies with Ramshackle(an armywide special rule, by the by) mitigating some of the stuff(Autocannons, Plasma Guns) traditionally said to be used by the Imperium for dealing with those types of Ork vehicles.

It's a game. There's abstraction. If this Stratagem were a Regimental trait? Yeah, I'd have words on it being broken. But it's a stratagem. It's not going to be on every single unit at every single moment.


Additionally, what's the problem with it being Cadian only? Is it because it should be on EVERY SINGLE GUARDSMAN EVER? Or no Guardsman ever should be able to be harder to wound? Right now, the Cadian regimental doctrine is one of the least interesting and least representative of what they're supposed to be.

Regimental doctrines for Guard are a joke because we're supposed to believe that, armywise, this?
Spoiler:

and this
Spoiler:


are somehow the same level of protection as this?
Spoiler:


For the record though, if you think this is bad just wait until you hear about Augmented Mounts for Death Riders(each time this model loses a wound, roll a D6--on a 5+, wound is not lost) or Cult of Sacrifice(characters and vehicles that are destroyed by an attack made by an enemy model but did not explode roll a D6, on a 4+ they get to make a final attack either shooting or in melee while units taking Combat Attrition tests ignore any or all modifiers).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 waefre_1 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

And that answers the question not one bit. The hits connected. AP-4 means no save. No dodging or armour. So what makes your little Cadians harder to wound than an Ork? Or a Rhino?

Ever tried to squash a fly with bare hands?

Yes. Either I miss (due to hairs the fly has which can detect the minute pressure variations that precede something big intersecting with the fly's temporospatial coordinates), or the fly gets squished. Usually the latter

See, harder to wound.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 15:58:03


Post by: Insectum7


 Kanluwen wrote:

Also, because Cadia's the best. Deal with it.

Good talk!


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 19:57:47


Post by: waefre_1


 Kanluwen wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

And that answers the question not one bit. The hits connected. AP-4 means no save. No dodging or armour. So what makes your little Cadians harder to wound than an Ork? Or a Rhino?

Ever tried to squash a fly with bare hands?

Yes. Either I miss (due to hairs the fly has which can detect the minute pressure variations that precede something big intersecting with the fly's temporospatial coordinates), or the fly gets squished. Usually the latter

See, harder to wound.

 waefre_1 wrote:
...Either I miss...

Nnnnno, harder to hit. If I do hit, it's pretty easy to wound (and remember, "taking a wound" means "becoming combat ineffective", not necessarily "instagibbed". Even if you don't kill the fly, you can still stun or injure them with a near miss and while I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on DEW or anything, I'd have to imagine that a similarly near-miss with a Volcano Cannon would still cause some pretty nasty thermal injuries to a person).

I get the point you're aiming (pun intended) at here, but the reason I had that parenthetical about fly hairs is that the reason that swatting flies with you bare hands is that flies have a phenomenal capacity for dodging shots, not tanking them. Flyswatters and rolled-up newspapers are better for flyswatting due to them causing less of a pressure differential than a hand (due to perforations and roundness respectively, IIRC), and thus making it harder for the fly to sense its impending doom.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 20:16:53


Post by: Kanluwen


Yes, and the reason I made the point I did is that the argument initially made was that the shot hit and wounded but now for some reason we're talking about armor not being a thing while still grousing about the harder to wound status.

Someone already blew the stratagem. You still wounded on anything but a 1 or a 2. The fly is already dead or already dodged or cover interspersed or whatever. It's a pointless metric to be upset about at that point.

This whole thing is just a repeat of the "Conscripts can destroy a baneblade in one round of shooting!".



IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 20:26:29


Post by: Daedalus81


 Kanluwen wrote:
This whole thing is just a repeat of the "Conscripts can destroy a baneblade in one round of shooting!".



The good ol' days!


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/14 22:06:55


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Guess H.B.M.C. was right.
This is something y'all should be used to by now.



IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 00:29:16


Post by: BlackoCatto


Well back to the Bolt Action grind


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 01:55:53


Post by: PenitentJake


If we're still talking about the damn strat that ignores wound rolls of 1 or 2, and you're seeking a narrative to explain it, the way Whitewolf RPGs explained similar rules was "Rolling with the punch" - the idea being that it still hit me, but because I fought in a planet spanning war that destroyed my homeworld, I learned how to move with the impact, provided the wound was not too egregious (which is why I can only do it when the wound roll is 1 or 2). Moving with the impact this way takes mental focus (which is why I have to burn a strat, and it's not always on).

If all of those conditions are met, then moving with the impact allows me to remain combat effective- not necessarily unwounded, but healthy enough to stay conscious and continue to aim and fire.

If the shot isn't from a particularly powerful weapon (ie. only does 1 damage), I can also move with that impact to make more of the armour I'm wearing.

There's the narrative.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 02:08:02


Post by: Voss


PenitentJake wrote:
If we're still talking about the damn strat that ignores wound rolls of 1 or 2, and you're seeking a narrative to explain it, the way Whitewolf RPGs explained similar rules was "Rolling with the punch" - the idea being that it still hit me, but because I fought in a planet spanning war that destroyed my homeworld, I learned how to move with the impact, provided the wound was not too egregious (which is why I can only do it when the wound roll is 1 or 2). Moving with the impact this way takes mental focus (which is why I have to burn a strat, and it's not always on).

If all of those conditions are met, then moving with the impact allows me to remain combat effective- not necessarily unwounded, but healthy enough to stay conscious and continue to aim and fire.

If the shot isn't from a particularly powerful weapon (ie. only does 1 damage), I can also move with that impact to make more of the armour I'm wearing.

There's the narrative.


That isn't narrative. That's fanon mindcaulk for nonsense.

And even if wasn't, it still doesn't justify why it works for teenage conscripts from one planet, but not 30 year vets from another, let alone genetically engineered supersoldiers, nigh-immortal aliens, spirits or super-technomagic tanks forged outside reality itself.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 02:51:17


Post by: PenitentJake


Voss wrote:


That isn't narrative. That's fanon mindcaulk for nonsense.


If so, it's "Nonsense" that has been employed by other games to explain similar rules.

Voss wrote:

And even if wasn't, it still doesn't justify why it works for teenage conscripts from one planet, but not 30 year vets from another, let alone genetically engineered supersoldiers, nigh-immortal aliens, spirits or super-technomagic tanks forged outside reality itself.


See, that's what I thought too. But after arguing with HBMC, I figured I should reread the article to make sure I had my sh*t right, cuz he's pretty passionate about this and it wasn't really fair of me to argue against him so hard without due diligence.

The Whiteshield thing is a whole other strat, and has nothing to with Cadia Stands, which is the strat everyone's got their knickers in a twist about, and it is available to all Cadian infantry, not just Whiteshields.

And the reason the other factions don't have to learn to roll with the punches is that they have other defense mechanisms- Marines tend to rely on their armour instead- and it also makes the fine motor control necessary to do this a bit more difficult. Small and medium Nids and Eldar do it with speed, which is more of a dodge effect, big nids have bulk and chitin; crons rely on living metal. Now what I can't explain is why Old Marines can't transhuman while Primaris can- a similar rule with different fluff, but here I'm with HBMC, cuz the fluff explanation for this strat (though it's rules are similar to Cadia stands) is in the name of the strat, and both Old Marines and Primaris DO have transhuman physiology.

But squishy humans- those strong enough to survive the fall of Cadia, well, some of them learned to Roll With It Baby. They can't always do it, cause it's freaking hard. As mentioned before, even when they have the mental stamina to attempted, they can't twist out of a particularly heavy hit (wound roll of 3+), and twisting their armour into the path of the shot isn't effective against high damage attacks (the other half of the strat, which no one is really complaining about).

And look, if you've decided that you hate the rule and rules like it (transhuman) because of the impact it has on the game (and HBMC does- his HATRED of this rule AND transhuman burns as bright as the freakin sun), that's okay. We can talk about that. I'm not even sure the rule is great for the game. In another thread, where HBMC was ranting about these two strats, rather than simply say they shouldn't exist (like he did in his response to me), he actually proposed changes to the rule that would have made it feel more acceptable to him, and some of them weren't bad.

It's okay to hate the rule. It's okay to want to change it. It's okay to want it gone.

But there are dozens of examples of people surviving against the odds or doing crazy, insane, miraculous things right here in the real world that are no more unrealistic than the scenario I described. You don't have to invalidate my explanation in order to justify hating the rule. I know a dude who was hit by a truck doing 50 kph dead on and thrown 15 feet without dropping the lighter he was holding. I had three friends go over a five story balcony- one hung on in a coma for five days before leaving us, another broke both legs and the third got up and staggered around in shock until the ambulance arrived. Sh*t like this does happen whether YOU think it's realistic or not. I've been there. The guy who got up? His controlling player burned the strat. The other two didn't. One per turn, right?

(Sorry Louie.. But you always did have the best sense humour, and I know you'd laugh it off if you were still here... even if you never understood me and my "Nerd games" RIP)

These types of occurrences, because of their rarity, are best represented by strats (if it all). They are meant to be extraordinary feats that happen rarely, if at all. Only a handful of these kind of events will ever happen in any given battle.

I personally don't mind these rules, because I feel like their limitations prevent or at least mitigate abuse. One unit can do this once per turn. Not a game breaker- for me anyway.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 13:56:47


Post by: catbarf


PenitentJake wrote:
If so, it's "Nonsense" that has been employed by other games to explain similar rules.


'Rolling with the punch' might be a decent mechanic for, like, a barroom brawl game, but it's downright stupid as a justification for shrugging damage in a sci-fi battlefield context.

You can't 'roll with' a bullet to mitigate its damage.

PenitentJake wrote:
These types of occurrences, because of their rarity, are best represented by strats (if it all).


We've always had weird one-off events. The Guardsman that rolls three sixes on his armor save, or the missile launcher that rolls a 1 to wound him.

The difference is that those rare and statistically improbable events were rare and statistically improbable because they were mediated by dice. Stratagems are rock-solid reliable, at the limitation of requiring CP and only being usable once per turn. They're not rare occurrences and there's nothing extraordinary about them when you can use them whenever you want.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 15:43:45


Post by: PenitentJake


 catbarf wrote:


We've always had weird one-off events. The Guardsman that rolls three sixes on his armor save, or the missile launcher that rolls a 1 to wound him.

The difference is that those rare and statistically improbable events were rare and statistically improbable because they were mediated by dice. Stratagems are rock-solid reliable, at the limitation of requiring CP and only being usable once per turn. They're not rare occurrences and there's nothing extraordinary about them when you can use them whenever you want.


This is the best response I've seen to any of the posts I have made in this thread and others like it. So good, in fact, that there isn't really a comeback.

Nice work.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 15:59:32


Post by: Daedalus81


Why are Catachans S4?

It doesn't make sense that they're as strong as marines.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 16:03:12


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Why are Catachans S4?

It doesn't make sense that they're as strong as marines.


Better question, why isn't their a Space Marine Chapter headquartered on their home planet since the locals are such badasses? Base S5 Marines


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 16:14:54


Post by: Kanluwen


SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Why are Catachans S4?

It doesn't make sense that they're as strong as marines.


Better question, why isn't their a Space Marine Chapter headquartered on their home planet since the locals are such badasses? Base S5 Marines

Same reason there wasn't one on Cadia.

The planet's Guard tithes are considered important.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 16:16:56


Post by: SemperMortis


 Kanluwen wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Why are Catachans S4?

It doesn't make sense that they're as strong as marines.


Better question, why isn't their a Space Marine Chapter headquartered on their home planet since the locals are such badasses? Base S5 Marines

Same reason there wasn't one on Cadia.

The planet's Guard tithes are considered important.


... I mean...technically cadia doesn't have guard tithes anymore....just saying


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 17:45:38


Post by: Sim-Life


SemperMortis wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Why are Catachans S4?

It doesn't make sense that they're as strong as marines.


Better question, why isn't their a Space Marine Chapter headquartered on their home planet since the locals are such badasses? Base S5 Marines

Same reason there wasn't one on Cadia.

The planet's Guard tithes are considered important.


... I mean...technically cadia doesn't have guard tithes anymore....just saying


You talk like being destroyed makes it exempt.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 20:56:00


Post by: Void__Dragon


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kan plays Cadians, so he doesn't care. That's the simple answer. He doesn't want to admit it (and certainly never would), but that's the truth.




I certainly don't play Cadians or any guard regiment and I also don't care.


IG and Nidz @ 2021/10/16 21:21:00


Post by: Gert


TBF Cadia is both the name of a System and a Planet within that system. Then on top of that there's the Cadian Gate which is an area of space outwith the System.
Cadian Regiments garrisoned all of this and still sent thousands more out into the galaxy at large. They are also often used as training Regiments sent to worlds that are sending out their own newly raised armies. Or older Regiments get settled status, a rarity but it still happens, and then take up arms again when the time comes.
To suggest that since Cadia the planet is gone therefore there should be no more Cadian Regiments is just ludicrous