So in a recent tournament orks tabled drukhari turn one in the finals. Something similar happened in the semi finals.

The ork list is all of the good shooting fast moving things in a speedwhag and freebooters hitting on 4+. The drukhari got first turn, tryed to charge turn 1 and wrap around to deny moving out of combat. Of course this did not happen, and some 2000 dice of dakka later there are no elves to be seen.

This is an exstre case. Drukhari is a glass cannon list, and the speedwhag just has a good matchup.

But here is the rub: How on earth do GW balance such an odd clan trait as freebootas? +1 in BS is an increase in 50% lethalathy in shooting. You can not just crank up all shooting units by a lot of points, essentially hurting all the non freebooters by a tonn.

This is similar to how difficult is was to balance ossiarch bone reapers in AoS when one of them had +1 to Armour save witch was a big deal.

How on earth can the orks be balanced? When balancing you balance for the cealing of the army, but the floor for all non freebooters will be devestating.

Thoughts are welcome.

I think like you said, this is a fringe case and tournaments often have something like this where a list that happens to hard counter the meta lists taken by other people does exceedingly well when it would otherwise flounder against different armies. It's also shown that the Drukhari player gambled his T1 from going first to try and tie up with the opponent's stuff and fluffed his rolls, leaving him exposed in optimal range and at the mercy of an army basically made to take out his kind of army.

You also have to factor that all the other placements were still the usual suspects of Dark Eldar et friends and only one Ork list structured like this managed to make its way to the top. You would have more of a basis for a nerf if the top 5 lists were carbon copies of this Ork list.

Well it could be that the game is perfectly fine and nothing needs to get nerfed.

*sideways glaces over at the admech archaeopter strataraptor*



But I was thinking more if they where ro nerf the orks on the background of the speedwhag freeboters, how could GW do it?

 Grimskul wrote:
I think like you said, this is a fringe case and tournaments often have something like this where a list that happens to hard counter the meta lists taken by other people does exceedingly well when it would otherwise flounder against different armies. It's also shown that the Drukhari player gambled his T1 from going first to try and tie up with the opponent's stuff and fluffed his rolls, leaving him exposed in optimal range and at the mercy of an army basically made to take out his kind of army.

You also have to factor that all the other placements were still the usual suspects of Dark Eldar et friends and only one Ork list structured like this managed to make its way to the top. You would have more of a basis for a nerf if the top 5 lists were carbon copies of this Ork list.

If the DE had played back and hid the result would have been the same, except it would have taken him until turn 2 to be effectively wiped of the table.

As for how you balance this. Realistically, you don't really. Things like this is why free rules should not exist. X, Y and Z are unlikely to be comparable enough to allow them to be interchangeable without cost.

(besides, there is no hiding from flyers)

 Niiai wrote:
So in a recent tournament orks tabled drukhari turn one in the finals. Something similar happened in the semi finals.

The ork list is all of the good shooting fast moving things in a speedwhag and freebooters hitting on 4+. The drukhari got first turn, tryed to charge turn 1 and wrap around to deny moving out of combat. Of course this did not happen, and some 2000 dice of dakka later there are no elves to be seen.

This is an exstre case. Drukhari is a glass cannon list, and the speedwhag just has a good matchup.

But here is the rub: How on earth do GW balance such an odd clan trait as freebootas? +1 in BS is an increase in 50% lethalathy in shooting. You can not just crank up all shooting units by a lot of points, essentially hurting all the non freebooters by a tonn.

This is similar to how difficult is was to balance ossiarch bone reapers in AoS when one of them had +1 to Armour save witch was a big deal.

How on earth can the orks be balanced? When balancing you balance for the cealing of the army, but the floor for all non freebooters will be devestating.

Thoughts are welcome.

I will point out the freebootas trait is....exactly, exactly the same as it was in the previous codex with no problems.

The problem is the overtuned shooting units like Wazboms and Squigbuggies. They need to go up in price.

 Niiai wrote:


But here is the rub: How on earth do GW balance such an odd clan trait as freebootas? +1 in BS is an increase in 50% lethalathy in shooting. You can not just crank up all shooting units by a lot of points, essentially hurting all the non freebooters by a tonn.

W:th free bonuses you don't.

There's basically 2 ways to get these balanced: a) effects of subfaction need to be very minor(and even this is just minimizing damage). This is way aos3 is going for b) you pay points for subfaction. Wanna take dakkajet? Cost different whether you are goff(what benefit dakkajet gets from goff anyway?) Or freeboota.

I mean it’s not just +1 bs…the freebooter gets nothing until a freebooter unit wipes out an entire unit first….(each turn)
So your telling me someone lost because they tried to glasscannon msu list and failed mutilple roles and played poorly?
Tell me more how this is the winning players fault.
The fact remains orky aren’t exactly tearing up the tournament meta subjective fringe case of someone winning and all. Heck nearly every Meta analysis has drukari as the most broken faction in game currently and orks somewhere in the 5-10 codex rank…with drukari clear 1, ad mech, greyknights, with space marines,
Eldari combined arms, Tsons, orks and custodies in a tier 2 grouping.
I mean drukari has a 70% plus win rate and you’re crying about them losing to an ork list? First world problems I guess
Maybe after drukari gets beaten down with the nerf hammer for a while we can come back to this topic.

Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. I mean there is a lot of it in this gunline list but it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poorly, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face an bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now…, not orks…

It’s one game in one tournament…..
Yeah it’s headline grabbing but to my knowledge orks aren’t routinely sweeping to wins in every tournament. If it becomes a consistent pattern then yeah it’s a problem. We need a sample size of greater than one to make that assessment IMO.

 Niiai wrote:
...But here is the rub: How on earth do GW balance such an odd clan trait as freebootas? +1 in BS is an increase in 50% lethalathy in shooting. You can not just crank up all shooting units by a lot of points, essentially hurting all the non freebooters by a tonn.

This is similar to how difficult is was to balance ossiarch bone reapers in AoS when one of them had +1 to Armour save witch was a big deal.

How on earth can the orks be balanced? When balancing you balance for the cealing of the army, but the floor for all non freebooters will be devestating.

Thoughts are welcome.

This is basically the same balancing act GW's been trying and failing at all of 8e/9e with every army. If you make the unit good without the buff stack then with the buff stack it's way too good, and if you make the unit not broken with the buff stack it's unplayably bad without it, so we end up in this weird equilibrium state where if you're playing the netlists set up to make perfect efficiency out of the buff stack the game sort of works, and if you aren't it doesn't.

There is nothing new about this list. The ork codex dropped 3 months ago. This type of list has been used in nearly every tournament since. 3 months later someone beat the current fotm net list doesn’t mean the sky is falling.

This is not about the sky is falling. Or 'crying about drukahri losing to orks' gungo puts it. At leats not me.

If the orks need a nerf, and I am not saying they do, how do you fix it? Point increases to balance for cealings means that floors get really low.

Picture the following senario: Freeboters in speedwhaaag becomes the premiere way to play orks. GW responds by increasing points on all shooting units to the point where it becomes balanced for these lists. Would this not put the units out of reach for cassual players who are not running freeboters. Going from BS5 to 4 seems like such a huge gap. (Also, this works in melee as well, right? Hitting on 2's.)

You are making tons of leaps in judgement…
You are literally assuming freebooters list are the problem. I don’t even think freebooters are the best performing tournament list. Bloodaxe buggy spam has been performing just as good if not better..
-freebooters provide a boost to shooting but the buggies are still countered by being locked in combat and having poor melee profiles.. (which btw the drukari players failed to do since he played and rolled bad).
-Bloodaxe lists forgo the boost to shooting to remove the counter by receiving the benefit to fall back and shoot….
You can’t even mix these 2 detachments because freebooters almost requires you to go all in on freebooters to work.

Give and take that’s how these lists are balanced
Every other drukari player for the last 3 months have been beating freebooters list by locking the shooting buggies in combat. The 1 time someone epically failed you are talking about nerfing orks…. R you serious?

Your comment on orks getting a +1 to hit in melee is laughably bad. Do you not realize +1 to hit is capped?
It’s obvious you don’t know a lot about orks… this is one of the ork codex poorly designed problems..
Here is just a list off the top of my head.

All warbosses +1 hit in melee aura
Snagga boss +1 to hit melee aura to snagga only
All snaggas +1 to hit vehicle and monsters
Tankbustas +1 to hit vehicles
Freebooters +1 to hit kultur
Mekboss buzz grob +1 to hit on any dread unit
Waaagh banner +1 to hit melee aura
Zodgrod superrunts +1 to hit Gretchin unit
And the grot gunners, gitfinders, wing missiles, etc adding +1 to hit
Snikrot +1 hit bloodaxe commandos
Big krumpas specialist detachment +1 to hit melee
I might have missed a few in there too.

gungo wrote:
The 1 time someone epically failed you are talking about nerfing orks…. R you serious?

 Niiai wrote:

If the orks need a nerf, and I am not saying they do, how do you fix it?

Niiai, I think the fundamental problem have pointed out is that the only way to change it is to change how subfaction traits inherently work in the game, because of how many interact with certain units optimally compared to others. So it would basically require to rewrite how subfaction rules work in each codex or make you pay points for them as another poster mentioned.

You do realize that is still talking about it? I mean my statement can’t be any clearer.

gungo wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. I mean there is a lot of it in this gunline list but it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poorly, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face an bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now…, not orks…

always amusing to see a nobody on the internet call one of the best players in the world bad for not charging units he couldn't reach and not managing to win a roll-off to prevent a retreat from combat.

Freebooterz is really a 2 part problem:

1. Undercosted wazboms and squig buggies 2. The ability of flyers to turn 1 alpha strike

The first problem is easy to fix. The second problem is really a problem with aircraft, but it’s been hidden by the fact most aircraft are way overpriced. I would just make it so aircraft have to start in strategic reserve and potentially also decrease the number of flyers in most detachments.

Speedwaaagh will die soon and the ork book will languish in the mid tier and sometimes act as a gatekeeper. Too many of the melee tools are too expensive and don’t do enough damage while having nearly 0 survivability. The book has almost 0 strats worth mentioning and few synergies (seriously look at how many add 1 to hit roll buffs the book has).

In an ideal world GW would rebalance the ork book by dropping boyz a point and buffing some melee units while nerfing the speedwaaagh. Unfortunately I think they’ll just bring the hammer down and let orks suffer.

One of the guys on Goonhammer has suggested that GW should make the detachments such that you can only bring 1 flyer per battalion or brigade, which would nerf both the Freebooterz list and the AdMech thopter spam. Most other armies would be unaffected as their flyers are pretty expensive and thus rarely taken.

 Ordana wrote:

gungo wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. I mean there is a lot of it in this gunline list but it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poorly, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face an bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now…, not orks…

always amusing to see a nobody on the internet call one of the best players in the world bad for not charging units he couldn't reach and not managing to win a roll-off to prevent a retreat from combat.

I mean he advanced forward and left himself on the open on a gunline army. What did he think was going to happen? He got outplayed badly and publicly. If he was relying on a roll off to win grats on losing the coin toss… he gambled and lost simple as that… from one nobody on the Internet to the next nobody on the Internet go white Knight somewhere else.

gungo wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

gungo wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. I mean there is a lot of it in this gunline list but it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poorly, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face an bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now…, not orks…

always amusing to see a nobody on the internet call one of the best players in the world bad for not charging units he couldn't reach and not managing to win a roll-off to prevent a retreat from combat.

I mean he advanced forward and left himself on the open on a gunline army. What did he think was going to happen? He got outplayed badly and publicly. If he was relying on a roll off to win grats on losing the coin toss… he gambled and lost simple as that… from one nobody on the Internet to the next nobody on the Internet go white Knight somewhere else.

What do you think he should've done instead?

The ork player played well by deploying his buggies behind his flyer wall deep into his own deployment knowing Sean had no real range threat to him…

Sean had 2 choices gamble on making long advance and charge rolls or use cover and distance to stay out of range of the orks which have limited range on thier weapons (except flyers). (Btw he rolled a 1 on advance). The kmk have 36in range and can’t really move… the squig buggies only move 10in and have 1x 36 range weapon each…
The scrapjets have 10in movement and the only 36in weapon is a big shoota…warbikers do best with 14 movement but 18in dakkaguns. the rest of the shooting is 12-24in range at best (a few 8in range weapons in there too)

This is a mid board list with the dakkajets being the main ability to reach across the board… and without the ork player using speedwaagh Dakkajets are a bit underwhelming. Most of those drukari transports should survive. I mean Sean still should have lost in the end as it was a bad matchup.

I mean he could have gotten out of range/line of sight…he chose to gamble and adv and charge across the entire board… unfortunately his dice didn’t cooperate…He advanced tried to wrap up the Mek guns, rolled to low they backed up or died and left his army outside of combat in a bad spot. He got mowed down by the gunline in easy max shots for Dakka/rapid fire range and gave his opponent easy charges to follow up on.. I mean rapid fire/Dakka half range isn’t exactly a new concept in 40K either. He literally gave his opponent the most amount of shots he could possibly have.

for the last 3 months drukari have been beating similar ork freebooter lists regularly!!!! This isn’t some new revelation or new overpowered ork list… it’s been played a lot already. And beaten by other players playing drukari.

I mean the biggest issue with this battle was logan being able to box in thier deployment using terrain and the fact he was able to create an impenetrable wall of flyers preventing drukari from charging his buggies. So Sean tried to wrap the Mek guns.

Freeboota trait is hard to "fix" as it's a bonus that needs to be triggered and it's actually a gamble. In fact in small games or in mixed klan lists there are solid odds that the bonus is not triggered, while full Freeboota lists or mostly Freeboota lists may lack some punch in combat. Against armies that don't have MSU the trait is hard to trigger as well.

Easiest fix is to raise the points costs of those few shooty units that once spammed makes a Freeboota list (possibly) very powerful. Scrapjet, Squigbuggy and Dakkajet can, and will, go up a few points. Wazbom at 200 points is not cheap, let alone undercosted.

And if anything there's a significant lot of Drukhari stuff that needs points hikes with higher priority than ork most spammable units.

The trait is fine.

 Blackie wrote:
Freeboota trait is hard to "fix" as it's a bonus that needs to be triggered and it's actually a gamble. In fact in small games or in mixed klan lists there are solid odds that the bonus is not triggered, while full Freeboota lists or mostly Freeboota lists may lack some punch in combat. Against armies that don't have MSU the trait is hard to trigger as well.

Easiest fix is to raise the points costs of those few shooty units that once spammed makes a Freeboota list (possibly) very powerful. Scrapjet, Squigbuggy and Dakkajet can, and will, go up a few points. Wazbom at 200 points is not cheap, let alone undercosted.

And if anything there's a significant lot of Drukhari stuff that needs points hikes with higher priority than ork most spammable units.

The trait is fine.

I agree with rukkatrukks and dakkajets going up a little. Scrapjets I'm 50/50 on because of all the buggies, the rukkatrukk is actually the "problem" one. And I agree that Wazboms are certainly not undercosted.

The guy even took Dragstas and KBBs, which people don't run because they're somewhere on the scale of meh to alright.

This seems to be a very heavily skewed list, tailor made to chew through Drukhari, being played well and with very good rolling. And Orks have been basically designed around skew for as long as I can remember.

Unfortunately for the Drukhari player, they were outplayed in deployment and then crippled when their risky play to get back into it failed and then rolled very poorly.

If Drukhari and Ad Mech are tier one armies at the moment, then Orks are tier two with a favourable Drukhari matchup at best. These skew lists have been all over the place for the last three months with no concern, and people are only losing their minds because of an Ork player having a great game and a Drukhari one having a bad one. These things happen and are an inherent risk of a game based around randomness.

I remember games last edition where losing most of my army turn one and the game being decided at the beginning of turn two was a fairly common occurrence, and people didn't do anything about it then. They just doubled down and tried to get rid of the rest of my list.

Maybe if GW limit flyers to 1 per detachment that will take the edge of the more oppressive Ork lists? (And also for Ad Mech)

Inbound CSM treatment, in which anything that can^t pick mark of slaanesh can't afford to play certain shooty unit due to one, ONE, stratagem.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Freeboota trait is hard to "fix" as it's a bonus that needs to be triggered and it's actually a gamble. In fact in small games or in mixed klan lists there are solid odds that the bonus is not triggered, while full Freeboota lists or mostly Freeboota lists may lack some punch in combat. Against armies that don't have MSU the trait is hard to trigger as well.

Easiest fix is to raise the points costs of those few shooty units that once spammed makes a Freeboota list (possibly) very powerful. Scrapjet, Squigbuggy and Dakkajet can, and will, go up a few points. Wazbom at 200 points is not cheap, let alone undercosted.

And if anything there's a significant lot of Drukhari stuff that needs points hikes with higher priority than ork most spammable units.

The trait is fine.

I agree with rukkatrukks and dakkajets going up a little. Scrapjets I'm 50/50 on because of all the buggies, the rukkatrukk is actually the "problem" one. And I agree that Wazboms are certainly not undercosted.

The guy even took Dragstas and KBBs, which people don't run because they're somewhere on the scale of meh to alright.

This seems to be a very heavily skewed list, tailor made to chew through Drukhari, being played well and with very good rolling. And Orks have been basically designed around skew for as long as I can remember.

Unfortunately for the Drukhari player, they were outplayed in deployment and then crippled when their risky play to get back into it failed and then rolled very poorly.

If Drukhari and Ad Mech are tier one armies at the moment, then Orks are tier two with a favourable Drukhari matchup at best. These skew lists have been all over the place for the last three months with no concern, and people are only losing their minds because of an Ork player having a great game and a Drukhari one having a bad one. These things happen and are an inherent risk of a game based around randomness.

I remember games last edition where losing most of my army turn one and the game being decided at the beginning of turn two was a fairly common occurrence, and people didn't do anything about it then. They just doubled down and tried to get rid of the rest of my list.

Exactly. The solution should aim to address the chance of spamming stuff rather than nerfing units: one flyer per detachment (and maybe even 0 for vanguards, outriders, spearheads) could be something but I'd go even further by removing squadrons from units that are made by 100ish points models. Koptas or mek gunz make sense as squadrons, tanks or buggies on bases that are almost imperial knight sized not so. So no more than 3x for each buggy could really help here. OP lists that spam buggies would be nerfed but those who just bring 1-3 of a specific kind of buggy won't be affected and a player could still bring up to 15 buggies.

The problem is a Freebooters list with tons of planes, tons of scrapjets and tons of squigbuggies. None of the those, the klan trait or the specific aforementioned units are a problem in any other kind of lists. So they really shouldn't nerf the klan or go too hard on the units. The combo should be addressed.

gungo wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. I mean there is a lot of it in this gunline list but it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poorly, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face an bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now…, not orks…

Had they not gone all out attack they would have got wiped T1 or T2 anyway...

Trying was only way they could have avoided that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

gungo wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Should an army be able to kill 90% of its points value in one phase?

Should a glass army just stand in optimal range of a gunline and say come shoot me bro?

The drukari list was built around first turn assault got first turn and failed to assault and left themselves vulnerable in the open with no protection. Then rolled poorly on saves from str 5/6 range weapons with bs4+ shooting and ap1/2 weapons. I mean there is a lot of it in this gunline list but it’s not exactly tearing up the tournament scene.

My point is similar drukari lists are literally winning most tournaments, besting similar ork lists along the way and achieving absurd 70%+winrates. There are going to be blowouts when someone plays poorly, rolls poorly even if they are playing the current fotm net list especially When they face an bad matchup. Sounds to me like someone simply got outplayed because even with this 1 fringe case I can list about a dozen other tournaments where drukari are winning vs similar freebooter lists. It’s not even close drukari are literally tearing up the meta right now…, not orks…

always amusing to see a nobody on the internet call one of the best players in the world bad for not charging units he couldn't reach and not managing to win a roll-off to prevent a retreat from combat.

I mean he advanced forward and left himself on the open on a gunline army. What did he think was going to happen? He got outplayed badly and publicly. If he was relying on a roll off to win grats on losing the coin toss… he gambled and lost simple as that… from one nobody on the Internet to the next nobody on the Internet go white Knight somewhere else.

Well alternative was do nothing to prevent it and get automatically blasted off the board...

How was that better than at least trying to avoid being blasted away without any chance of doing anything? Literally only way he could avoid T2 tabling was try to tag them in melee. That was the one and only way DE could even theoretically win there.

So he tried, didn't succeed. At least he tried. You? You would seemingly just allow yourself get tabled without tryin to do anything. Basically: You wave white flag and just make opponent go through motions of rolling dice. At least just concede before game begins then if you don't even try to win. Not even trying to win and not conceding is just rude and poor sportmanship. Conceding in long way like you is...just rude.

I've watched the battle report and the moment the Drukhari player fails the no escape rolls against the Mek guns the game is over. He was using a very aggressive army that wanted to get into the Mek guns to prevent them being shot, and after that he would swing down into the buggies and work his way through them.

Unfortunately for him he rolled poorly and his plan back fires, leading to the buggies stomping on his very fragile army. The buggies also had their ideal targets in Venoms and Wyches. No one uses KBBs, but conveniently if they manage to charge or survive a round of combat against Drukhari, then all those flamers are pretty darn good for wiping out their units.

In all honesty, if his plan had worked he likely would have won. Drukhari are CC blenders that buggies can't really handle in melee, and they wouldn't have been able to fall back properly because they're not Blood Axes. All of the buggies were packed in so tight that if he could charge one, he was tagging multiple buggies, at which point it all starts going wrong for them.

 Niiai wrote:
This is not about the sky is falling. Or 'crying about drukahri losing to orks' gungo puts it. At leats not me.

If the orks need a nerf, and I am not saying they do, how do you fix it? Point increases to balance for cealings means that floors get really low.

Picture the following senario: Freeboters in speedwhaaag becomes the premiere way to play orks. GW responds by increasing points on all shooting units to the point where it becomes balanced for these lists. Would this not put the units out of reach for cassual players who are not running freeboters. Going from BS5 to 4 seems like such a huge gap. (Also, this works in melee as well, right? Hitting on 2's.)

this is rock paper scissors edition 40k, the ork player got some good matchups and i think the semi finals game you are talking about above is the same player. A lot of people basically copy pasted sean nayden 's list (not a bad way to go, he is awesome and i generally like watching him play and especially when he explains his thinking, smart lad). I think you are right in that there had Sean played more conservatively he would have been wiped turn 2. That said the ork list would have been tabled by custodes and had a real uphill battle against a beefy space marine list as it did not have the tools for that.

TLDR version. dark eldar are paper, this ork list was sissors, and the ork player is very fortunate that all the rock lists are out of favor currently since the dominate admech and dark eldar lists are such a counter to them.

Rock paper scissors have always been part of many game systems, warhammer included. Dark Eldars have always cheated a bit, at least when I played them in 5th edition. With range, mobilaty, low T on vehicles and many invonerable saves high powered shots (like lascannon, or short ranged multimeltas) are worse vs them them vs the meta in genreal. Orks pump out so many bad to mid level qualaty of shots, and that is exatly what is good vs dark eldar. So it is cernatly more of a rock paper scissor senario then anything else. (I know very littel about admech except that the archaeopter strataraptor comes out very well when compared to it's contemporaries.)

As I said I do not know if orks a justefied for a nerf. And the strong clear narative that comes out of this one incident does not provide the whole picture. For me it is more about the design of having on clan increase it's damage output by almost 50% witch makes it hard to balance. As somebody pointed out this was not a problem in the old codex, so there is that. The lack of counterlay to flyers (hard to hide from etc) certanly also is a good observation from this thread. It just rarly comes up as so few of the codexes have good flyers. I think orks, admech and tyranid haridan are the only once who show up with some frequency.

I do agree there has always been a certain amount of paper rock scissors in the game. I just feel that it is more pronounced than it has ever been before. Well at least since I started playing in late 4th/ transition to 5th.

As for the adding 50% to hits that freebootas do its good, but I personally think blood axes are better for his list against anything that is not Drukari so even in that sense Logan got some really good matchups to get to the top (mind you Logan played very well and 100% deserves accolades for brilliant play, I don't think many people could have generated that ork list to that level)

There is also some truth to flyers in general especially tyranid, admech and (i would argue to a lesser extent) orks. The reason the dakkajet is so good for freebootas is getting in a position to shoot the weakest unit your opponent has to try and trigger the BS4+. For other lists it is good but not a must take.

Post this win though with people factoring anti buggie into their lists (not hard to do) this ls it. I foresee it being a gatekeeper list that shows up and people need to build in an answer to. Ironically this means they will be worse off vs admech making them even more powerful.

Orks have always been somewhat anti-meta far as i can remember. The only reason they werent total gak in the past is because the way they played was so alien to everyone else that it wasnt really hard countered, even though it was technically easy to hardcounter.

Now, for once, orks hard counter someone else. As whats been pointed out its such an obvious tailored list and the drukari player goofed/bad lunk its painful.

That being said i do think the Squigbuggy is a little undercosted, but thats the only one. Dakkajets are pretty average when not freeboota, ive been using them as badmoonz for instance and unless i either roll hot and get an unusually high number of hits or my opponent IGNORES the plane, it usually ends up making its points in damage-soaking, not damage-dealing.

Also Freeboota trait is not exactly as it was in the past when it wasnt an issue. Its now global, in the past it was a 24" bubble sort of 'inverted aura' type thing. Plus, Speedwaaagh is kinda silly good imo, which just dogpiles the issues into one giant heap of problems.

Ork shooting units in the past were just a moderate amount of shots at AP0/1, with really just rokkits/KMBs being the only AP2+ and more than 1 damage, both were difficult to spam without touching forgeworld (yes, tankbustas are a thing, theyre also extremely high on the threat meter and are tissue paper so not really an easy thing to use). Now we have quite a few of random guns all over the buggies that are AP2 and/or 2+ damage AND freeboota is global AND speedwaagh gives +1 dakka shot and +1AP (for 2 turns).
The squigbuggy fires at AP3 2D for 2 turns. It just shreds things during the Speedwaagh even when NOT freeboota giving the smaller squiglauncha 4+ to hit.
Speedwaagh is more the issue than freeboota, imo.

 Blackie wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Freeboota trait is hard to "fix" as it's a bonus that needs to be triggered and it's actually a gamble. In fact in small games or in mixed klan lists there are solid odds that the bonus is not triggered, while full Freeboota lists or mostly Freeboota lists may lack some punch in combat. Against armies that don't have MSU the trait is hard to trigger as well.

Easiest fix is to raise the points costs of those few shooty units that once spammed makes a Freeboota list (possibly) very powerful. Scrapjet, Squigbuggy and Dakkajet can, and will, go up a few points. Wazbom at 200 points is not cheap, let alone undercosted.

And if anything there's a significant lot of Drukhari stuff that needs points hikes with higher priority than ork most spammable units.

The trait is fine.

I agree with rukkatrukks and dakkajets going up a little. Scrapjets I'm 50/50 on because of all the buggies, the rukkatrukk is actually the "problem" one. And I agree that Wazboms are certainly not undercosted.

The guy even took Dragstas and KBBs, which people don't run because they're somewhere on the scale of meh to alright.

This seems to be a very heavily skewed list, tailor made to chew through Drukhari, being played well and with very good rolling. And Orks have been basically designed around skew for as long as I can remember.

Unfortunately for the Drukhari player, they were outplayed in deployment and then crippled when their risky play to get back into it failed and then rolled very poorly.

If Drukhari and Ad Mech are tier one armies at the moment, then Orks are tier two with a favourable Drukhari matchup at best. These skew lists have been all over the place for the last three months with no concern, and people are only losing their minds because of an Ork player having a great game and a Drukhari one having a bad one. These things happen and are an inherent risk of a game based around randomness.

I remember games last edition where losing most of my army turn one and the game being decided at the beginning of turn two was a fairly common occurrence, and people didn't do anything about it then. They just doubled down and tried to get rid of the rest of my list.

Exactly. The solution should aim to address the chance of spamming stuff rather than nerfing units: one flyer per detachment (and maybe even 0 for vanguards, outriders, spearheads) could be something but I'd go even further by removing squadrons from units that are made by 100ish points models. Koptas or mek gunz make sense as squadrons, tanks or buggies on bases that are almost imperial knight sized not so. So no more than 3x for each buggy could really help here. OP lists that spam buggies would be nerfed but those who just bring 1-3 of a specific kind of buggy won't be affected and a player could still bring up to 15 buggies.

The problem is a Freebooters list with tons of planes, tons of scrapjets and tons of squigbuggies. None of the those, the klan trait or the specific aforementioned units are a problem in any other kind of lists. So they really shouldn't nerf the klan or go too hard on the units. The combo should be addressed.

The list that won didn’t squadron… every Mek gun and buggy was a single unit squadron.. which means it only had 3 of each buggy anyway… and used several of the least effective buggies…

The issue came down to Sean rolled a 1 and other low rolls to advance and failed to lock his units in combat. PLUS the ork player using his large flyer bases in front plus rows of buggies squeezed into terrain that prevented Sean from getting into assault range…. In other words it was an assault list that couldn’t assault cause
Flyer row- can’t assault
Buggy row 1- can’t get in assault range due to flyer in front and terrain on side
Buggy row 2- can’t get into assault range due to buggies in front and back
Buggy row 3- can’t get into assault range due to buggies in front and back either having no space to deploy or out of movement range

So the only option Sean had were 3 solo unit Mek guns on the left that were blocking the only other open path to the ork deployment zone. He needed to make a long advance roll to bubble wrap the units so they couldn’t fall back and not kill them in combat to keep himself locked in combat on the orks turn so his units don’t get shot to death. He failed advance and the Mek guns fell back and his entire army was in rapid fire/Dakka max shot range.

Only option to fix this type of skew list is remove the aircraft detachment, limit aircraft to 1 per patrol, battalion, brigade. And allow opposing units to ignore flyer bases for movement and assault.

If the flyer bases didn’t prevent assault then the incubi would have assault range on the buggies/warbikes in front. This game was lost during table setup and deployment.. abusing bad flyer rules against an army the melted vs a lot of low strength low ap shooting. You guys act like str5/6 ap1/2 bs4+ 1 dam shooting is overpowered! Since when did the heavy bolter become the most feared weapon in game!!!

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Orks have always been somewhat anti-meta far as i can remember. The only reason they werent total gak in the past is because the way they played was so alien to everyone else that it wasnt really hard countered, even though it was technically easy to hardcounter.

Now, for once, orks hard counter someone else. As whats been pointed out its such an obvious tailored list and the drukari player goofed/bad lunk its painful.

That being said i do think the Squigbuggy is a little undercosted, but thats the only one. Dakkajets are pretty average when not freeboota, ive been using them as badmoonz for instance and unless i either roll hot and get an unusually high number of hits or my opponent IGNORES the plane, it usually ends up making its points in damage-soaking, not damage-dealing.

Also Freeboota trait is not exactly as it was in the past when it wasnt an issue. Its now global, in the past it was a 24" bubble sort of 'inverted aura' type thing. Plus, Speedwaaagh is kinda silly good imo, which just dogpiles the issues into one giant heap of problems.

Ork shooting units in the past were just a moderate amount of shots at AP0/1, with really just rokkits/KMBs being the only AP2+ and more than 1 damage, both were difficult to spam without touching forgeworld (yes, tankbustas are a thing, theyre also extremely high on the threat meter and are tissue paper so not really an easy thing to use). Now we have quite a few of random guns all over the buggies that are AP2 and/or 2+ damage AND freeboota is global AND speedwaagh gives +1 dakka shot and +1AP (for 2 turns).
The squigbuggy fires at AP3 2D for 2 turns. It just shreds things during the Speedwaagh even when NOT freeboota giving the smaller squiglauncha 4+ to hit.
Speedwaagh is more the issue than freeboota, imo.

Speedwaagh is indeed a big part of it aswell. Same way giving space marines a (near) blanket -1 AP with Doctrines was an issue, doing the same to an Ork army is also a problem.

Speaking of doctrines that makes me realize they didnt put the "this bonus is not cumulative" clause for the speedwaaagh.
Granted, orks do not have very many ways to improve AP as it is, but still surprised that clause isnt there.

Its funny in a silly sort of way when my badmoonz Squigbuggy during Speedwaagh rolls a 6 to wound, which is AP4 lol

gungo wrote:


The issue came down to Sean rolled a 1 and other low rolls to advance and failed to lock his units in combat. PLUS the ork player using his large flyer bases in front plus rows of buggies squeezed into terrain that prevented Sean from getting into assault range…. In other words it was an assault list that couldn’t assault cause

It was skew list vs skew list. Multiple planes (4 I believe in that list?) are an issue indeed. But don't forget that drukhari have higher WR than Freeboota orks. With better rolls the drukhari player could have won the game, even by a large margin.

The combination of Freeboota and Speedwaaagh on 3x3 different buggies isn't game breaking.

I don't think anyone's pretending DE don't need to be nerfed too.

Ultimately its a hard one to call and I'm not sure points alone will suffice.

Because okay, you put the Ork list up - say 10-15 points for buggies, 20 points for flyers. Average list is say 150-200ish points more expensive.

But I then go through DE and make them 150-200ish points more expensive.

Well... don't you end up essentially where you are now? Everything kills everything else far too quickly?

I feel 40k is sort of approaching a strange situation where its balanced because *everything* is overpowered* - but equally this is sort of dispiriting for the game as it will make these blowout results more and more common.

*Maybe not Necrons.

The real answer to the problem is just for GW to make space marines the most overpowered faction.. because when space marines have a 60%+ win rate and dominate most army lists people freak out substantially less..

The situation is boiled down to this. 3+ months the ork codex has been out. People have been plying various forms of freebooter buggy spam in all tournaments since…. 1 recent tournament occurs where a single ork list makes it into the finals with a 5-1 win record and gets 3 drukari match ups in a row. The top 8 had 6 drukari or ad mech players He hard counters the drukari list and blows out the final opponent and everyone freaks out…

Orks are now considered broken… nerf all thier buggies and planes!!!!

Mind you for the last 3 months orks were LUCKY to get a single player into the top 10 bracket and had a well balanced 50% win rate.

My hope is GW would only really change flyer rules to limit flyers to only 1 per patrol, brigade, battalion and remove flyer detachment and allow opposing armies to both move and assault on/over flyer bases as if they are not there. Maybe a slight 10-15 point point hike on squigbuggies and dakkajets… but the reality is I now expect a massive nerf due to the meta crowd freaking out and yes a lot of those freaking out are extremely influential.

I don't necessarily think its necessary to limit flyersper detachment though it might be a bandaid. I think being able to moe over and charge over flying bases (as well as ending up within an inch of them but not on top of them) is a better place to start. If that doesn't do it then sure start restricting flyers per detachment. one attempt at a time and have play testers maybe try both options and see which makes flyers seem less overpowered. having played some with the house rules on flyer bases moving over, charging through and ending within an inch of them it helps a lot.

I would change the Freebooter trait to the following:

After you destroy a unit with shooting attacks, the next Freeboter unit you shoot with gets +1BS. This can't occur more than X times per turn.

And then you tune X to a reasonable level. Can be anything between 1 and infinite.

You could attach a CP cost for a second activation per turn for example.

Not gonna lie, if you roll perfectly across the board any army is "too deadly" on turn 1. I don't know what this player rolled, but I'm betting it was damn near the unreal end of the luck range.

I am also from the opinion that there is nothing to balance.

My reason is, this is a defeatable list, in addition our power rating cleary puts us at mid tier.

Taking this in consideration the fact a mid army counters one of the big top ones so hard is actually good. Please hear me out, i might be new but the meta for drukari will shift to account for orks and this will open up holes for other armies to exploit returning some semblance of balance to the scene.

I am from the belief this is actually healthy for the game.

If GW manages to make another mid tier army into a hard counter to ad mech, but not top army we will close the loop and come full circle.

Forceride wrote:
My reason is, this is a defeatable list, in addition our power rating cleary puts us at mid tier.

I'm not convinced this is true.

The issue is that Orks *as a codex* are about mid-tier. If you had to run a highlander of all the units you'd have a pile of great and a pile of rubbish.
But I equally think that if you take out players "trying to make Boyz work", or running fluffy Dreadwaaagh lists etc the win rate rises. (Hence why I think its gone up the last few months - rather than seeing the new codex explosion then plateau other factions experienced.)

In terms of games at bigger tournaments over the last month Ork win percentage is only behind DE, Ad Mech and (increasingly obnoxious and I hope get cast back into oblivion) GK.
Which probably represents the fact that said happy-go-lucky players are not turning up to those events to drag the average down.

The whole balancing/nerf ork codex freak out is annoying. Even goon hammer is screaming nerf orks… https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-many-magnificent-majors/

the nonsense about the obvious bias is he lists all the top 10 finishes over the last week tournaments. In just the majors tournaments they are primarily won by drukari or ad mech. With ad mech and drukari also filling up most of the top 10 rankings (7x grey knights and 6x adeptus soritas placing too). There is 1 ork win, 1x 3rd place finish and like 2 other freebooter lists on the bottom 10 of those 5 major tournaments and the dude is posting nonsense like
"Beyond that, it floods the board with vehicles and takes the opponent off the table in double time. You know this stuff. I am starting the feel the angry spirit of JONK overtaking me, so let’s congratulate on the podium finish and move on."

47 players listed in 5 tournaments 1 ork win, 1x 3rd place finish and 2 other in bottom 10 and the dude is crying about Orks. There are 22 admech/drukari lists out of 47 players who placed... and he's crying about orks!!! It's a freak out about 1 ork list winning 1 tournament and that ork list even went 8-1 losing a game during that same tournament…

gungo wrote:
The whole balancing/nerf ork codex freak out is annoying. Even goon hammer is screaming nerf orks… https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-many-magnificent-majors/

the nonsense about the obvious bias is he lists all the top 10 finishes over the last week tournaments. In just the majors tournaments they are primarily won by drukari or ad mech. With ad mech and drukari also filling up most of the top 10 rankings (7x grey knights and x iron hands placing too). There is 1 ork win, 1x 3rd place finish and like 2 other freebooter lists on the bottom 10 of those 5 major tournaments and the dude is posting nonsense like
"Beyond that, it floods the board with vehicles and takes the opponent off the table in double time. You know this stuff. I am starting the feel the angry spirit of JONK overtaking me, so let’s congratulate on the podium finish and move on."

47 players listed in 5 tournaments 1 ork win, 1x 3rd place finish and 2 other in bottom 10 and the dude is crying about Orks. There are 22 admech/drukari lists out of 47 players who placed... and he's crying about orks!!! It's a freak out about orks winning that is all.

Yeah, it's bizarre that they go "This is Fine" while Admech and Drukhari are still ruling the roost with their dominance in the meta but god forbid some other xenos makes a go at the top three once in a while and all of a sudden they're shook and shocked. I guess part of it is that they're numb to the Admech/Drukhari wins now and it triggers them to see someone shake up that meta occassionally.

If you are a regular reader of these articles, you would know that Goonhammer called out nerfs for Dhrukari pre and post nerf as well as for AdMech.

They call for a limit to flyers in general as well.

The article even ends on a note how stale/bleak the competitive environment is at the moment.

Freebooter Speedwaaagh lists need a nerf. That Dhrukari and AdMech (and maybe GK) do so, too, do not make that statement incorrect. And it does not need to be repeated everytime.

Forceride wrote:
I am also from the opinion that there is nothing to balance.

My reason is, this is a defeatable list, in addition our power rating cleary puts us at mid tier.

Taking this in consideration the fact a mid army counters one of the big top ones so hard is actually good. Please hear me out, i might be new but the meta for drukari will shift to account for orks and this will open up holes for other armies to exploit returning some semblance of balance to the scene.

I am from the belief this is actually healthy for the game.

If GW manages to make another mid tier army into a hard counter to ad mech, but not top army we will close the loop and come full circle.

I am tempted to be of that opinion too. If Dark Eldars have to change their most powerful lists to avoid being crushed by Orkz, it might actually help some other armies like Space Marines who in turn can keep the Orkz from running wild and thus making the game more balanced. I would be very prudent with buffs and nerfs to Orkz (or any other army) since about half the factions of 40K are yet to have their 9th edition codex and thus alter the balance some more, especially when one consider that amongst those factions are the Eldar and the Tau who were at the top of the competition in 6th and 7th edition (and frankly a good chunk of eighth for the Eldars), Imperial Guards who are a popular army that could bring a vehicle heavy meta that would certainly make current ork builds sweat a lot. I would also be careful with flyer nerfs. Tyranid codex is also coming and they often rely a lot on their flying creatures and I have a feeling that we will see more flying creatures from them.

It’s more aircraft not all flyers…
Reduce the flyer slot to 1 per patrol, brigade, battalion and remove the flyer detachment.
And most importantly allow movement and assault through and even on aircraft bases as if they are not there.
The whole idea of blocking assault with a aircraft base is very gamey and abusable. At that point this 1 game in 1 tournament would have played out significantly diffrent with the drukari player able to assault the first 3x buggies kill them in 1 turn and pile into 3x more buggies lock them in combat and since they don’t have fall back and shoot they are effectively removed next turn(which they can’t do anyway with the other buggies behind them). And as long as the drukari are in combat they can’t be shot… and considering his entire list was mostly assault based and the ork player had 21 models only it would have been a lopsided in the drukari players favor… but ya know people seem More okay with that.

A) It's already been reduced from 3 flyers in a Brigade to 2, and 2 in all others.
B) There is no aircraft detachment, that was already removed
C) Movement through an aircraft base is already legal, you just cant end your movement on them or in engagement range because both that causes issues when you need to move the aircraft and also you CAN melee an aircraft so how do you determine what is engaged and what isnt actually engaged if theyre sitting on the base?
D) Lot of bases for flyers are quite scenic, being on top of them would be difficult if not impossible

Aircrafts blocking melee is not that big a deal as it almost never happens EXCEPT against this specific drukari T1 cheese crap. Aircraft movement limitations rarely allow them to actually get in the way consistently. Only reason it blocks T1 stuff is because they havnt moved yet.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
A) It's already been reduced from 3 flyers in a Brigade to 2, and 2 in all others.
B) There is no aircraft detachment, that was already removed
C) Movement through an aircraft base is already legal, you just cant end your movement on them or in engagement range because both that causes issues when you need to move the aircraft and also you CAN melee an aircraft so how do you determine what is engaged and what isnt actually engaged if theyre sitting on the base?
D) Lot of bases for flyers are quite scenic, being on top of them would be difficult if not impossible

Aircrafts blocking melee is not that big a deal as it almost never happens EXCEPT against this specific drukari T1 cheese crap. Aircraft movement limitations rarely allow them to actually get in the way consistently. Only reason it blocks T1 stuff is because they havnt moved yet.

A) reduce them further it’s an obvious problem (2 in a brigade is probably okay)
B) ok (I obviously haven’t used it in a long while)
C) engagement range should only be considered if the other model also has flyer keyword. The base should be ignored for all other purposes. I would even allow models on the base as they can be placed again once the model has moved
D) they shouldn’t be scenic.. just a flat clear plastic base…. Again this is gamey nonsense especially since scenic bases are already ignored in the rules.

I mean the imaginary force field wall of flyers is gamey nonsense anyway you look at it. “Hey guys let’s move right under the airplane up there”… can’t touch this… ya that’s broken..

flat discs? you do realize that literally EVERY "fully painted" qualification includes proper basing detail right?
If that was seriously a thing then all the GW painted minis would be on boring bases too.

Hell even on this very forum if you post something nicely painted in the Showcase thread with a stock disc base they'll punt it to the progress one for WIPs because its not done yet.

There are things you must deal with because its a game of toy soldiers moving around. Yes ideally they shouldnt get in the way, they do and always will unless the positioning of the aircraft is so pointless it might as well not even have a movement stat and just statically float around the board.

gungo wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
A) It's already been reduced from 3 flyers in a Brigade to 2, and 2 in all others.
B) There is no aircraft detachment, that was already removed
C) Movement through an aircraft base is already legal, you just cant end your movement on them or in engagement range because both that causes issues when you need to move the aircraft and also you CAN melee an aircraft so how do you determine what is engaged and what isnt actually engaged if theyre sitting on the base?
D) Lot of bases for flyers are quite scenic, being on top of them would be difficult if not impossible

Aircrafts blocking melee is not that big a deal as it almost never happens EXCEPT against this specific drukari T1 cheese crap. Aircraft movement limitations rarely allow them to actually get in the way consistently. Only reason it blocks T1 stuff is because they havnt moved yet.

A) reduce them further it’s an obvious problem (2 in a brigade is probably okay)
B) ok (I obviously haven’t used it in a long while)
C) engagement range should only be considered if the other model also has flyer keyword. The base should be ignored for all other purposes. I would even allow models on the base as they can be placed again once the model has moved
D) they shouldn’t be scenic.. just a flat clear plastic base…. Again this is gamey nonsense especially since scenic bases are already ignored in the rules.

I mean the imaginary force field wall of flyers is gamey nonsense anyway you look at it. “Hey guys let’s move right under the airplane up there”… can’t touch this… ya that’s broken..

I don't see why i shouldn't base my flyer to match the rest of my army. no reason to leave it black plastic with a clear stem coming out of it. blank bases look so boring. i would be against any rules allowing models to actually be on top of a flying base as that would complicate the movement phase moving models to move the flyer. i do however think it should be ok to end in engagement range of said flyer since in the abstract there is nothing on the ground but in the real world there is so a decent compromise.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
flat discs? you do realize that literally EVERY "fully painted" qualification includes proper basing detail right?
If that was seriously a thing then all the GW painted minis would be on boring bases too.

Hell even on this very forum if you post something nicely painted in the Showcase thread with a stock disc base they'll punt it to the progress one for WIPs because its not done yet.

There are things you must deal with because its a game of toy soldiers moving around. Yes ideally they shouldnt get in the way, they do and always will unless the positioning of the aircraft is so pointless it might as well not even have a movement stat and just statically float around the board.

I mean I’m not talking about every base just aircraft bases which already come in flat clear plastic… and are NOT part of the fully painted rules guidelines.
Scenic bases are already ignored in the rules…
And while I agree third party resin decorated bases look cooler it’s obviously being abused. I mean in certain situations it will be slightly annoying to move a model so I can move my 1-2 aircraft in a game but I’m already doing that with models and scenery where appropriate. So why again should aircraft be allowed to make the game more abusable? Rule of cool?

No they dont.

You are thinking flyer bases, which are used by things like eldar tanks or jetbikes.

Aircrafts all use an oval base that other than the giant post you stick on it look exactly like normal bases.
There is a BIG difference between flyer and aircraft. No aircraft has a clear-circle base, in fact other than Deffkoptas (which now dont use them) i dont know of any flying model that the clear base wasnt way smaller than the model in the first place. And also didnt raise them high enough to allow you to go under them.

I’m sorry the big Giant T stand is clear the base is a flat oval black base..
Not the old fashion small plastic round w a clear stick which broke all the time.

Regardless my point still stands these bases should NOT block engagement range and restrict movement by preventing units from moving on them.

You are no longer prevented from moving on them, you just can not end your turn on topp of it.

Having 4 flyers certanly makes that easier to block with then if you have 1 or 2.

That’s what I said “ON THEM” they can’t End thier move ON them plus preventing engagement range by being placed in front or moving a unit behind them.

You know what I’m saying you’re just arguing semantical nonsense.

Just to kind of tie some threads together here, I think there are few things to state:

1. The Drukhari list in the Socal finals was absolutly a Skew list that in almost any cases would lose to Orks. The list is clearly designed to beat just about anything else, but would have almost no chance beating the buggie list
2. This does not mean that the Ork Buggie List is balanced. It's not, and it's pretty clear that Dakka Jets and Squig Buggies (Likely scrapjets) need to have points adjustments. The Freebootaz trait is complicating things
3. Orks have won several events, and won several more this weekend. There are certain aspects that need to be nerfed.
4. This does not mean that Ad Mech and Drukhari are okay. It's been pretty clear they need to be nerfed again as well.
5. GK will probably need to catch a small nerf as well, but nothing on the scale of Orks, Drukhari and Ad Mech.

It's pretty simple. Orks, Ad mech and Drukhari are all a serious issue right now, and dominating the Meta with GK. It's probably at the worst state it's been at in all of 9th, and I think is probably worse than the Casteallan and Iron hands nonsense at this point. These things need to be fixed.

As for Goonhammer, they have been very consently calling for more Ad Mech and Drukhari nerfs. Not sure if someone just cherry picked some articles to act like they don't think those two are a problem, a long with Orks.

Hmmm... Good points Sasori. They probably need to increase the points on the forge world dread. The redemptor is probably fine.

 Niiai wrote:
Hmmm... Good points Sasori. They probably need to increase the points on the forge world dread. The redemptor is probably fine.

When talking about Grey Knights, I mean the Nemesis Dread Knight, not any Dreadnoughts. Sorry for the confusion.

No. I was thinking of SM contemtor dreadnought. Twin volkite culverin for 5 points should probably go up a bit. 16 shots for 150 points and cyclone missile launcher on topp of that for 25. It is the only units SM seem to be spamming in all competitive lists that pushes above its cost if we are making a list of things that seem to be too good.

I do not know enough about GK to speak of them. But people keep mentioning them.

 Niiai wrote:
No. I was thinking of SM contemtor dreadnought. Twin volkite culverin for 5 points should probably go up a bit. 16 shots for 150 points and cyclone missile launcher on topp of that for 25. It is the only units SM seem to be spamming in all competitive lists that pushes above its cost if we are making a list of things that seem to be too good.

I do not know enough about GK to speak of them. But people keep mentioning them.

VolCons are underpriced for sure, but they are not sweeping events. I'd be loath to nerf something that a lot of midtier armies are relying on to stay competitive at all, when it's not dominating the game. I'd rather the serious problem issues be taken care of first, then evaluate if Volcons really need to be nerfed.

 Sasori wrote:
Just to kind of tie some threads together here, I think there are few things to state:

1. The Drukhari list in the Socal finals was absolutly a Skew list that in almost any cases would lose to Orks. The list is clearly designed to beat just about anything else, but would have almost no chance beating the buggie list
2. This does not mean that the Ork Buggie List is balanced. It's not, and it's pretty clear that Dakka Jets and Squig Buggies (Likely scrapjets) need to have points adjustments. The Freebootaz trait is complicating things
3. Orks have won several events, and won several more this weekend. There are certain aspects that need to be nerfed.
4. This does not mean that Ad Mech and Drukhari are okay. It's been pretty clear they need to be nerfed again as well.
5. GK will probably need to catch a small nerf as well, but nothing on the scale of Orks, Drukhari and Ad Mech.

It's pretty simple. Orks, Ad mech and Drukhari are all a serious issue right now, and dominating the Meta with GK. It's probably at the worst state it's been at in all of 9th, and I think is probably worse than the Casteallan and Iron hands nonsense at this point. These things need to be fixed.

As for Goonhammer, they have been very consently calling for more Ad Mech and Drukhari nerfs. Not sure if someone just cherry picked some articles to act like they don't think those two are a problem, a long with Orks.

This is not very accurate. You disregard the fact the same list got stomped in the same tournament, there 2 of the same. You also disregard that while orks are winning this is more to people having not adapted to it yet, they also feel like the outliers. Another thing to mention is, this list was tailor made to deal with drukkari, drawing nerfs out of this will only penalise other cultures and further entrench the freeboota trait making it mandatory.
You admit it yourself, the drukkari list is cheese, cheese with smell strong enough to dump on other lists.

I don't think your making a fair assessment of the current situation.

Here's a piece of my mind, i have seen several reports of tournaments, i play orks and i follow orks reports to see how they deal with other armies. You would be surprised how many times it comes up that the oponent and the ork player are not yet very aware of the codex.

Goonhammer called for a nerf on ork buggies the moment the codex came out, and they sauf the buggies would create balance issues with how cheap they are and the ramshackle rule.
They are being consistent. I am not saying they are right. I think a simple rework of the freebooter trait (change it to something entire,y different, it’s a bad mechanic ). But they are being consistent, they are not just being blindsided by a few tournament results

 Sasori wrote:
Just to kind of tie some threads together here, I think there are few things to state:

1. The Drukhari list in the Socal finals was absolutly a Skew list that in almost any cases would lose to Orks. The list is clearly designed to beat just about anything else, but would have almost no chance beating the buggie list
2. This does not mean that the Ork Buggie List is balanced. It's not, and it's pretty clear that Dakka Jets and Squig Buggies (Likely scrapjets) need to have points adjustments. The Freebootaz trait is complicating things
3. Orks have won several events, and won several more this weekend. There are certain aspects that need to be nerfed.
4. This does not mean that Ad Mech and Drukhari are okay. It's been pretty clear they need to be nerfed again as well.
5. GK will probably need to catch a small nerf as well, but nothing on the scale of Orks, Drukhari and Ad Mech.

It's pretty simple. Orks, Ad mech and Drukhari are all a serious issue right now, and dominating the Meta with GK. It's probably at the worst state it's been at in all of 9th, and I think is probably worse than the Casteallan and Iron hands nonsense at this point. These things need to be fixed.

As for Goonhammer, they have been very consently calling for more Ad Mech and Drukhari nerfs. Not sure if someone just cherry picked some articles to act like they don't think those two are a problem, a long with Orks.

Forceride wrote:

This is not very accurate. You disregard the fact the same list got stomped in the same tournament, there 2 of the same.

No, my assesement is an incredibly accurate summation of the current situation. I did not disregard the list losing a single match, it's just not that relevant. If the Tournament format allows you to still win after a loss, then if anything that is a point in his favor. The fact he could make into the top 8 with a "stomp" means that he scored very high on his other games, for a 7 out of 8 game stomp in his favor.

Forceride wrote:
You also disregard that while orks are winning this is more to people having not adapted to it yet, they also feel like the outliers.

No, we are past the point of the meta "adapting". Events over the past few weeks have shown an incredible consistency with the armies that are winning. This reeks of the same people that said things like "Drukhari is a hammer in a meta of nails"

Forceride wrote:

Another thing to mention is, this list was tailor made to deal with drukkari, drawing nerfs out of this will only penalise other cultures and further entrench the freeboota trait making it mandatory.

We've seen multiple variations of the buggie list at this point. While it deals very well with Drukhari, it also happens to do incredibly well against nearly every other army. There is only a small handful of armies that even have the ability to do anything to it. Drawing nerfs on these units are a must. Freebootaz or not, the Buggies are criminally underpriced for their firepower. The same as Dakkajets. There is no way someone can objectively look at these units and think they are fair and balanced, freebootaz or not.

Forceride wrote:
You admit it yourself, the drukkari list is cheese, cheese with smell strong enough to dump on other lists.

Not sure what your point is here. I fully admitted it's a skew list, and sometimes skewlists get skewed. My point is you could not draw conclusions from this win alone. Luckily, we have plenty other events with the data to backup that parts of the Ork army are overtuned and problematic.

Forceride wrote:I don't think your making a fair assessment of the current situation.

Why is that? I can point to multiple events as evidence to draw my conclusion. There is plenty of data out there. People said that Buggies would be a problem the moment the special edition codex was available. They were right.

Forceride wrote:
Here's a piece of my mind, i have seen several reports of tournaments, i play orks and i follow orks reports to see how they deal with other armies. You would be surprised how many times it comes up that the oponent and the ork player are not yet very aware of the codex.

This argument falls apart pretty quickly, once you realize how long the the codex has been out and how many events we have had since the release. Orks have been around long enough that competitive players are fully aware of what they can do. This is especially true when you start hitting the top tables. So the excuse of players not being aware falls off very quickly.

addnid wrote:Goonhammer called for a nerf on ork buggies the moment the codex came out, and they sauf the buggies would create balance issues with how cheap they are and the ramshackle rule.
They are being consistent. I am not saying they are right. I think a simple rework of the freebooter trait (change it to something entire,y different, it’s a bad mechanic ). But they are being consistent, they are not just being blindsided by a few tournament results

Yeah, they were pretty on point about some of the Ad Mech issues and have been incredibly consistent.

I agree the ork codex has been out for 3+ months. Multiple variations of buggy spam and freebooter shooting lists have been tried on grand tournaments and majors since that release. I’m this particular list not a single new model is even used…
So given all that tell me again what’s broken about an ork codex unit. That’s barely pushing a 50% win rate and on one of the biggest tournament Weekends in a while we had literally 5 majors and out of 47 players posted in the goonhammer review we had ONLY 4 ork players placing in the top 10… 1 win, 1x 3rd place finish and 2 players in 10th place… drukari and ad mech swept the field with 22 out of 47 placing.. BUT we also had 7 grey knight placing and 6 soritas placings heck several other armies placed just as well as orks… both orks win rate and thier placing in tournaments are showing that orks are NO where near as strong or overpowered as the freak out suggests.

gungo wrote:
I agree the ork codex has been out for 3+ months. Multiple variations of buggy spam and freebooter shooting lists have been tried on grand tournaments and majors since that release. I’m this particular list not a single new model is even used…
So given all that tell me again what’s broken about an ork codex unit. That’s barely pushing a 50% win rate and on one of the biggest tournament Weekends in a while we had literally 5 majors and out of 47 players posted in the goonhammer review we had ONLY 4 ork players placing in the top 10… 1 win, 1x 3rd place finish and 2 players in 10th place… drukari and ad mech swept the field with 22 out of 47 placing.. BUT we also had 7 grey knight placing and 6 soritas placings heck several other armies placed just as well as orks… both orks win rate and thier placing in tournaments are showing that orks are NO where near as strong or overpowered as the freak out suggests.

I think you missed part 2 of the article which had Orks notching two more wins and several more Top 4 placings: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-many-magnificent-majors-pt-2/

So, Orks did quite well this weekend, and were part of the top 4 factions, including winning a super major.

As for what's broken, the Squigbuggies are broken for multiple points. The first part of course is that for their firepower, their cost is not at all balanced. Dakkajets have a similar issue, though obviously Freebootaz compounds that. In a Speedwaagh the amount of firepower you can put out for 120 is stupid absurd. Next, you have durability issue. Ramshackle means that you have a very limited range of weapons that can bypass that -1 damage, making these way more durable than they should be for their points. the -1 to hit on the Dakkajets compounds their durability issue. The third issue, and what is likely the biggest is issue is you don't really have any counterplay against these units. You can't hide from the buggies or the planes, making terrain and deployment matter significantly less. If the Ork player gets first turn, your chances of recovering are very limited. You either have an army that can deal with this, or you can't. Most armies cannot.

Now part of the reason you see the Orks a little less than Ad Mech or Drukhari, is because the Ork buggie list does have a few bad matchups, one of them being Ad Mech. Which presents another issue. Once Ad Mech get nerfed, If orks don't that means there is a very good chanee we see them absolutely dominate the meta similar to what we are seeing with Drukhari and Ad Mech.

Sasori you really seem like you are on a crusade against us orks, even though I agree with you on some points.

Tyel wrote:


Because okay, you put the Ork list up - say 10-15 points for buggies, 20 points for flyers. Average list is say 150-200ish points more expensive.

But I then go through DE and make them 150-200ish points more expensive.

Well... don't you end up essentially where you are now? Everything kills everything else far too quickly?

Problem with that specific game was that Ork list was a highly tailored lists against Drukhari. Of course it's gonna crush it in multiple occasions.

Real solution is to put drukhari in line, so that Ork player doesn't tailor against them anymore. And the very same lists he played, excatly as it is, isn't OP at all against the vast majority of the other factions.

Sasori... i am not going to argue in the sense your wrong and i am right... That lead's no where.. but i am also of the impression your on a crusade.

So far the only thing i can agree is that the freeboota trait is a concern.

But the orks have on average 50% win rate... They don't compare to neither drukari or AdMech.

1. this list is beatable by several armies, some one already mention SM and IG
2. This is not the list winning all the tournaments you mention, they vary, hell there is one with triple Kill Tank. Your drawing conclusions simply because Ork wins, this is bias. By your own admission you also mention that ork list are losing and winning tournaments... that why i say it's fine we aren't in any shape taking over.
3. Your also focusing on single placement only, this is not Drukkari and Admech... where they take the first 10 slots... it's not even comparable
4. This list was tailor made against dukari... another funny thing is, it is taking single unit buggies and it has buggies not commonly used
5. The owner of the druakkri list admitted he had no tool to deal with the Ork player so he gambled, and he could have won the match even then.. that does not seem right even with it's list (this is what i meant with cheese, when a list can outperform even though it's facing it's hard counter)
6. The reason the list is so effective against others is exactly because of drukari and Admech.. nobody is expecting this amount t6-7 with speed, like mentioned, several armies counter it effectively but i am sure the meta is shaped to deal with drukkari and Admech to the point their not viable.
7. Even in 3 months you do not have sufficient evidence to nerf them or Grey Knight's... but you DO have for AdMech and Drukarri with their ludicrous 60-70% and taking over all tournaments.. it's not even comparable.
8. The rukkatruks share the same issue we had with mech guns last codex, we use them because we do not have anything else in the codex similar.. that leaves it open that any nerf will affect all match ups.. Even the ones that are balanced. the big thing is buff staking with the freeboota.

In my opinion your just bashing 2 good units while you ignore that all armies have good units, should we nerf them too? I can agree the Freeboota pushes it to the top but so far all i see is we won because we can counter drukkari and hard. that's it, even by your own report that's what i get out of it. We Hard counter Drukkari, if we are lucky we can win tournaments if we ourselves do not meet the armies that handle us well.

I love how people complain that there is a crusade against Orks and that Admech and Drukhari are bad while complete ignoring the many many people who have consistantly kept calling for nerfs to Admech and Drukhari since they entered the scene.

Just because Orks are now also a problem that needs to be fixed doesn't mean Drukhari and Admech are no longer an issue.

 Sasori wrote:

gungo wrote:
I agree the ork codex has been out for 3+ months. Multiple variations of buggy spam and freebooter shooting lists have been tried on grand tournaments and majors since that release. I’m this particular list not a single new model is even used…
So given all that tell me again what’s broken about an ork codex unit. That’s barely pushing a 50% win rate and on one of the biggest tournament Weekends in a while we had literally 5 majors and out of 47 players posted in the goonhammer review we had ONLY 4 ork players placing in the top 10… 1 win, 1x 3rd place finish and 2 players in 10th place… drukari and ad mech swept the field with 22 out of 47 placing.. BUT we also had 7 grey knight placing and 6 soritas placings heck several other armies placed just as well as orks… both orks win rate and thier placing in tournaments are showing that orks are NO where near as strong or overpowered as the freak out suggests.

I think you missed part 2 of the article which had Orks notching two more wins and several more Top 4 placings: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-many-magnificent-majors-pt-2/

So, Orks did quite well this weekend, and were part of the top 4 factions, including winning a super major.

As for what's broken, the Squigbuggies are broken for multiple points. The first part of course is that for their firepower, their cost is not at all balanced. Dakkajets have a similar issue, though obviously Freebootaz compounds that. In a Speedwaagh the amount of firepower you can put out for 120 is stupid absurd. Next, you have durability issue. Ramshackle means that you have a very limited range of weapons that can bypass that -1 damage, making these way more durable than they should be for their points. the -1 to hit on the Dakkajets compounds their durability issue. The third issue, and what is likely the biggest is issue is you don't really have any counterplay against these units. You can't hide from the buggies or the planes, making terrain and deployment matter significantly less. If the Ork player gets first turn, your chances of recovering are very limited. You either have an army that can deal with this, or you can't. Most armies cannot.

Now part of the reason you see the Orks a little less than Ad Mech or Drukhari, is because the Ork buggie list does have a few bad matchups, one of them being Ad Mech. Which presents another issue. Once Ad Mech get nerfed, If orks don't that means there is a very good chanee we see them absolutely dominate the meta similar to what we are seeing with Drukhari and Ad Mech.

No I didn’t miss part 2… I listed the larger more accurate majors/super major (including 2 on part 2) not the smaller GTs… even if you add the smaller more local GTs the ork representation is still lower then ad mech, drukari, greyknights and even adeptus soritas… also orks only have a 50% win rate… you can jump around it all you like but the stats show completely different view than the one you are trying to make about how orks are broken. So ya let’s nerf everybody and put space marines broken and on top again because that seems to be the only time anyone doesn’t have a complete meltdown.

 Ordana wrote:
I love how people complain that there is a crusade against Orks and that Admech and Drukhari are bad while complete ignoring the many many people who have consistantly kept calling for nerfs to Admech and Drukhari since they entered the scene.

Just because Orks are now also a problem that needs to be fixed doesn't mean Drukhari and Admech are no longer an issue.

But are they? Cause games like the one we're discussing the entire week is a really unbalanced one. The ork list was heavily tailored against drukhari, isn't an oppressive list in general, while drukhari and ad mech are typically oppressive against anyone, including tailored orks.

I think the issue is Sean is a nice guy and a well respected player who got absolutely man handled in this game by taking a win at all cost tactic that backfired because he felt he had no
Other Choice. He claims even if he fell back and counter charged later he would have still been tabled (maybe turn 3) and he’s probably right.

But that’s not necessarily the ork codex fault… Sean took an army with low antitank but extreme assault and fragile. It was hard countered by a shooty vehicle spam list that Sean had no answer for… is this the ork codex fault? Or Sean list building fault? Does drukari not have enough anti tank in thier codex? They do btw….

So we are back to the jist of the complaints people don’t like rock, paper, scissors play that even one of the best players can’t overcome because they lose during list building when they make a skew army to combat 2 wound elite squads instead of anti tank. They don’t like the fact even when someone places themselves in the absolute worst position possible they can lose 75% of thier army from making a bad decision that backfired. And I’m not saying Sean had a lot of choice here. I’m saying he could not have made a worst list and placed it in a worst position if he tried vs this ork build.

The bottom line is this.. orks have a balanced 50% win rate, orks have a high to mid high range in placing a in major tournaments.. orks are still less then 10% of all placings. And most importantly outside of drukari orks are not wiping out most armies off the table… the vast majority of other competitive codexs ad mech, greyknights, space marines, adeptus soritas, deathguard, t-sons, etc are all tough fights for orks. Heck admech hard counters this ork list; in fact this list lost vs admech during this tournament.

However currently drukari make up ~25% of all tournament placings.. currently drukari have a 60%+ win rate… and when an ork list gets to the top tables as it did in this 1 tournament where the player faced 3x drukari armies in a row the ork codex and it’s 1 competitive build seems a lot more powerful Becuase they hard counter drukari… that is the issue…and people lost thier freakin minds afterwards.

 Blackie wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I love how people complain that there is a crusade against Orks and that Admech and Drukhari are bad while complete ignoring the many many people who have consistantly kept calling for nerfs to Admech and Drukhari since they entered the scene.

Just because Orks are now also a problem that needs to be fixed doesn't mean Drukhari and Admech are no longer an issue.

But are they? Cause games like the one we're discussing the entire week is a really unbalanced one. The ork list was heavily tailored against drukhari, isn't an oppressive list in general, while drukhari and ad mech are typically oppressive against anyone, including tailored orks.

No army, no matter how much you tailor and counter your opponent and no matter how ideal your position is, should be able to remove 1800 points in a single turn. Period. The end.

And its not just Orks, before someone starts shouting. Admech will do the same thing if you let it (see London GT) Drukhari can probably do the same if they get all their charges. No one should be able to do this.

We've all been calling for DE nerfs from week 1 of the Codex coming out. You can't go on about it every day for six months - its kind of old.

I expect DE to be crushed in a future Chapter Approved, hopefully early in 2022. Ad Mech will likely get similar treatment.

The Speedwaaagh list is a problem. It has a few bad matchups - but it is producing plenty of games where it goes first and eats the opponent's list. Maybe not 1800 points - but I think we can all agree, you don't need to do that much damage in a single turn to win a game of 40k. As said - if DE and Ad Mech get nerfed and everything else remains the same, then you can expect 6-12 months of Speedwaaagh domination.

Its perfectly reasonable to say that if they nerf Speedwaaagh they should look at buffing regular waaagh - whether that's Greentide, Dreads, whatever - because otherwise Orks will be without an obvious competitive build. Which would be sad.

But we need to get away from these "I could see it so I deleted it" armies. Because its bad for the game.

This is definitely the worst 9th has been so far, but it's not even close to the domination we saw with Iron Hands in 8th. That was a completely different level.

 Ordana wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I love how people complain that there is a crusade against Orks and that Admech and Drukhari are bad while complete ignoring the many many people who have consistantly kept calling for nerfs to Admech and Drukhari since they entered the scene.

Just because Orks are now also a problem that needs to be fixed doesn't mean Drukhari and Admech are no longer an issue.

But are they? Cause games like the one we're discussing the entire week is a really unbalanced one. The ork list was heavily tailored against drukhari, isn't an oppressive list in general, while drukhari and ad mech are typically oppressive against anyone, including tailored orks.

No army, no matter how much you tailor and counter your opponent and no matter how ideal your position is, should be able to remove 1800 points in a single turn. Period. The end.

And its not just Orks, before someone starts shouting. Admech will do the same thing if you let it (see London GT) Drukhari can probably do the same if they get all their charges. No one should be able to do this.

Except Sean Chose to bring an army that wasn’t durable it’s not even drukari codex fault.. Sean could have taken more durable less glass cannon units but he didn’t he went for the hard counter to 2 wound elite infantry and ended up facing shooty vehicles and lost… he said himself he has nothing in his list that could handle that.. it’s not the armies fault it is list building on one codex vs another army… orks dont 1 shot any other of the 20 armies in 40K.. they only happen to hard counter a popular meta army and y’all lost your gak afterwards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
We've all been calling for DE nerfs from week 1 of the Codex coming out. You can't go on about it every day for six months - its kind of old.

I expect DE to be crushed in a future Chapter Approved, hopefully early in 2022. Ad Mech will likely get similar treatment.

The Speedwaaagh list is a problem. It has a few bad matchups - but it is producing plenty of games where it goes first and eats the opponent's list. Maybe not 1800 points - but I think we can all agree, you don't need to do that much damage in a single turn to win a game of 40k. As said - if DE and Ad Mech get nerfed and everything else remains the same, then you can expect 6-12 months of Speedwaaagh domination.

Its perfectly reasonable to say that if they nerf Speedwaaagh they should look at buffing regular waaagh - whether that's Greentide, Dreads, whatever - because otherwise Orks will be without an obvious competitive build. Which would be sad.

But we need to get away from these "I could see it so I deleted it" armies. Because its bad for the game.

I mean greyknights are winning more then speed Waagh and deathguard is almost as hard a counter as admech for orks… so no speed waggh won’t dominate especially if they become more popular and the meta grabs a lot more anti tank which will destroy these types of list. Speed waggh is easily counter especially if you take enough antitank not zero antitank like the drukari had.

Agreed, I think the problem for most Ork players is seeing some of the oversimplified responses that Orks are OP and need nerfing.
Most of us Ork players who play against factions other than DE know our armies aren’t OP.

I’m not a tournament player, don’t run freebooterz, speedwaaagh or buggy spam and a SM army can give me real problems.
The reason people do, is that our infantry and shooting (outside of freebooterz) can be simply pathetic against hard targets like marines.

By all means, add a few points to some problematic units (squigbuggies, scrapjets, etc). Maybe even look into the freebooterz traits but the issue isn’t Orks. Most people default to buggy spam because few other options are open to competitive Ork players.

I will also concede that flyers screening buggies from melee is nonsense but this example, as with many of the factors are symptoms of general gameplay rather than the Ork codex.

DoktaRoksta wrote:

I’m not a tournament player, don’t run freebooterz, speedwaaagh or buggy spam and a SM army can give me real problems.
The reason people do, is that our infantry and shooting (outside of freebooterz) can be simply pathetic against hard targets like marines.

By all means, add a few points to some problematic units (squigbuggies, scrapjets, etc). Maybe even look into the freebooterz traits but the issue isn’t Orks. Most people default to buggy spam because few other options are open to competitive Ork players.

The prolematic part of ork lists is the celining. Freeboterz, Speedwagh in a buggy spam with airplanes. And if this is not what you are playing then chances are very high that your insight with a different ork build does not give good data when it comes to how the list that is doing well is playig. Let us call your list more cassual (even though I do not know) and this tournament winning list more competetive. It might be that orks have a harder time against SM then high costed fragile modells like DE. (Admech are also quite fragile if they only spam T3 models and airplanes? I do not know them that well.)

However, if GW decide to increase the points on all the problematic units because they are so good in the competetive armie then you will get a lot or problems in a more cassual list because they are balanced for BS4+, not 5+. (Of course the blood axes might be the real gem as somebody like to point out in this thread. However, with all of the units beeing singel model units I have a hard time seeing getting a potensial few more models shooting outwights a 50% incease in deadlyness.)

An this this thread comes full circle. A lott of cassual orks will suffer the sins of the competetive orks because games need to balance for cealings, not cassual of floors.

addnid wrote:Sasori you really seem like you are on a crusade against us orks, even though I agree with you on some points.

I've made about three to four posts about it, and my concern has been mostly with 3 units. I'm a bit at loss how that could be construed as a "crusade against orks"

Forceride wrote:Sasori... i am not going to argue in the sense your wrong and i am right... That lead's no where.. but i am also of the impression your on a crusade.

Again, I don't see how 4 posts against about 3 units and a problematic subfaction rule is considered on a crusade. I've been on record about the same issues with Ad Mech and Drukhari when they pop up.

Forceride wrote:
So far the only thing i can agree is that the freeboota trait is a concern.

It is exemplifying some of the issues, but it is not the the only issue present.

Forceride wrote:
But the orks have on average 50% win rate... They don't compare to neither drukari or AdMech.

And one of the reasons Orks have a bit of a lower winrate than the other top factions is because the top Ad Mech builds are very good against the buggie Freebootaz build. Once again though, just because Ad Mech and Drukhari is a problem, doesn't mean Orks are not as well.

Forceride wrote:
1. this list is beatable by several armies, some one already mention SM and IG

I'm going to need some sources on Space Marines regularly being able to beat the Freebootaz list.

Forceride wrote:
2. This is not the list winning all the tournaments you mention, they vary, hell there is one with triple Kill Tank. Your drawing conclusions simply because Ork wins, this is bias. By your own admission you also mention that ork list are losing and winning tournaments... that why i say it's fine we aren't in any shape taking over.

No, the exact same list is not winning every tourunament, but the vast, vast majority of every podium placing Orks list has Freebootaz, with some combination of Dakkajets, Scrapjets and Squigbuggies. Which is the entire point I'm making, that these are the problematic units not the Ork codex as a whole

Forceride wrote:
3. Your also focusing on single placement only, this is not Drukkari and Admech... where they take the first 10 slots... it's not even comparable

No... I'm not. Orks have been making multiple podium placements for a while, and I pointed out several more wins and podium placements over the weekend. Once again though, just because Ad Mech and Drukhari are a problem, does not mean Orks are not.

Forceride wrote:
4. This list was tailor made against dukari... another funny thing is, it is taking single unit buggies and it has buggies not commonly used

Yes, I've already mentioned multiple times that it's a list that does incredibly well into durkhari, and was ampliefied by Nayden's list being a super skew list, and no one should be drawing conclusions from that single list.
As for the buggies not being used, this is a non-starter. The list is still using multiple Dakkajets, Scrapjets and Buggies in Freebootaz. The meta hasn't landed on single list yet, which goes to show the strength of the codex, but it still has the same problem units that the other podium lists are putting up.

Forceride wrote:
5. The owner of the druakkri list admitted he had no tool to deal with the Ork player so he gambled, and he could have won the match even then.. that does not seem right even with it's list (this is what i meant with cheese, when a list can outperform even though it's facing it's hard counter)

Here is the issue right here. All the Ork players are brining up the skewed matchup as the defense against these units being problematic, but flat out ignoring every other instance where these lists are dominating. Anyone that plays comp warhammer and goes to events understands this is a skew list and you can't draw conclusions from it. What you can start to draw conclusions from is the large amount of data we have present now from multiple events, which is showing a trend and serious issue.

Forceride wrote:
6. The reason the list is so effective against others is exactly because of drukari and Admech.. nobody is expecting this amount t6-7 with speed, like mentioned, several armies counter it effectively but i am sure the meta is shaped to deal with drukkari and Admech to the point their not viable.

This is exact same statements that Drukhari players were making when their codex came out. That "Drukhari was a hammer in a meta full of nails" That's simply just not the case. Most armies do not have the tools or the army composition to deal with the Buggie Freebootaz lists, and the nature of the list itself rendering things like terrain and deployment almost a moot point is a serious issue. I'm not sure you can fail to recognize the multiple serious issues here.

Forceride wrote:
7. Even in 3 months you do not have sufficient evidence to nerf them or Grey Knight's... but you DO have for AdMech and Drukarri with their ludicrous 60-70% and taking over all tournaments.. it's not even comparable.

This has literally been your arugement for three of these posts, and yes, there is sufficent evidence. You know it only took 3 months of Drukhari before their first nerf came right? There is no reason Orks should expect not to get that treatment when they have already proved problematic. Once again, just because Ad Mech and Drukhari are a problem, does not mean Orks are also not an issue.

Forceride wrote:
8. The rukkatruks share the same issue we had with mech guns last codex, we use them because we do not have anything else in the codex similar.. that leaves it open that any nerf will affect all match ups.. Even the ones that are balanced. the big thing is buff staking with the freeboota.

I fail to see how the ork codex cannot function without squigbuggies. As for nothing else similar, most armies only have 1, if even that units that can fire out of line of sight, and they are normally priced very high for that reason. 90 points for what you get with a squigbuggie is absolutely insane, and I don't see how you fail to see this.

Forceride wrote:
In my opinion your just bashing 2 good units while you ignore that all armies have good units, should we nerf them too? I can agree the Freeboota pushes it to the top but so far all i see is we won because we can counter drukkari and hard. that's it, even by your own report that's what i get out of it. We Hard counter Drukkari, if we are lucky we can win tournaments if we ourselves do not meet the armies that handle us well.

You act like there are not plenty of other good untis in the Ork codex. You still have amazing units like the Killrig, Wartrikes, Squigasaur, etc. let's do ourselves a favor here and not pretend like there are not other strong options available. If "Winning only because you counter Drukhari" is all you are getting by my posts you need to re-read it, because that is not at all what I said. Orks are also not "lucky" if they can win tournaments, otherwise they would not be doing so consistently.

 Blackie wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I love how people complain that there is a crusade against Orks and that Admech and Drukhari are bad while complete ignoring the many many people who have consistantly kept calling for nerfs to Admech and Drukhari since they entered the scene.

Just because Orks are now also a problem that needs to be fixed doesn't mean Drukhari and Admech are no longer an issue.

But are they? Cause games like the one we're discussing the entire week is a really unbalanced one. The ork list was heavily tailored against drukhari, isn't an oppressive list in general, while drukhari and ad mech are typically oppressive against anyone, including tailored orks.

I'll point this out again, but no one should being drawing any conclusions from that match. It's clear that the Drukhari players skew list just got outskewed. You can't draw any kind conclusions from it, and it really seems like everyone is getting hung up on this single match, instead of looking at the issue as a whole.

 addnid wrote:
Sasori you really seem like you are on a crusade against us orks, even though I agree with you on some points.

This isn't an actual argument. It's just trying to downgrade his position by saying he's got something against Orks when he's got legitimate points on the matter.

It's weird how defensive people have gotten over this when he's mentioned he's also wanting to balance out Drukhari and Admech as well. While pointing out the overall data and being consistent on the issue.

Dukhari and Admech are also big issues. But just because those two totally deserves a serious relook for balance purposes doesn't mean something like Artillery type units with too powerful shooting and flyers that are too good shouldn't be looked into as well. (In fact, flyers mechanics in general need to be looked at probably at some point).

Dreadnaughts in general are a problem more for balance between unit types. Very few tanks feel worth it when compared to dreadnaughts, which can be just as shooty, tankier, and most fight better than a tank as well.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 addnid wrote:
Sasori you really seem like you are on a crusade against us orks, even though I agree with you on some points.

This isn't an actual argument. It's just trying to downgrade his position by saying he's got something against Orks when he's got legitimate points on the matter.

It's weird how defensive people have gotten over this when he's mentioned he's also wanting to balance out Drukhari and Admech as well. While pointing out the overall data and being consistent on the issue.

I mean he has no idea what he’s talking about. First off orks aren’t dominating. 4 placings out of 47 in the majors/super majors podium placings isn’t dominating especially when about half a dozen armies have more placing then them. He keeps saying just ad mech and drukari is doing better but he fails to address the fact greyknights adowtus soritas deathguard, Alderu, iron hands, are all placing just as much or higher then orks. Out of 47 players this weekend in the majors and super majors orks has 1 first place, 1x 3rd place and 2x 10 place…. That isn’t dominating as he claims…. He said himself orks his problem is orks have been getting multiple podium placements for a while. I mean orks placing in tournaments ya but it’s not exactly a common thing. Multiple other armies are placing more often then orks (not just ad mech and drukari).

Next he mentions worthless units that haven’t been good in 2 editions like squigasaur as other strong units. He thinks the wartrike is a good unit when the only reason people take it is that it is one of the only units that can call speed waaagh. He doesn’t even know what’s good or bad and making a bunch of uninformed comments…

it’s NOT just admech that beats ork speedwaagh it’s any list with enough antitank. Ffs deathguard is one of the hard counters to orks. The ork forum talks about them constantly being a problem for orks but you wouldn’t know this because all you have are the peanut gallery freakin about this single tournament repeating some of the same uninformed comments and it’s just because this same list that won this tournament lost vs admech that tournament.. but I assure you deathguard and greyknights can be as big of a problem as ad mech. Because a bunch of str5/6 ap1/2 dam1 bs4 shooting isn’t exactly overpowered unless your list is a complete glass cannon like this drukari list.

Finally we all know the squigbuggy should go up about 10-15 points as it’s better then the other buggies, heck the Killrig should go up too and it has nothing to do so far with this or any tournament winning ork list. And the Dakkajet could go up about 15 points (5 points per superdakka)…but NONE of that would change anything with the way ork speedwaagh won this tournament because it was just a horrible matchup for the drukari player and he would still lose 75% of his army in 1 turn because an extra 90 points wouldn’t change anything.
This list didn’t really spam anything. At best the worst part of this list was bringing 4x flyers and he abused flyer base rules to completely block out turn 1 assaults. That was the issue not orks.

Many people on this thread seems to want to finds problem where there are none.

GW has always published strong units and will always do. It's the turn for the squigbuggie and dakkajet? Ok then.

Are the orks lists stomping every GT they see? No. Do orks have some hard counter to their list? Yes. Then adjust your list to beat them. Nothing more nothing less.

Still 20% winrate gap between drukh and orks but yeah nerf orks. And nerf my imperial fist army too when you are at it because i'm pretty sure i can do the same with an extremly fragile army showing at 6" of my gunline but whatever. I'm also a nobody on the internet so i must be wrong.

Psychocouac I started this thread because the ork nerf in particular seemed hard to implement well. They would probably keep on nerfing all topp winning units, that is the name of the game when you want to do anual balancing. Orks are on that list, Drukhari, Admech, some problematic GK units maybe and the point cost on the contemptor dreadnough volcites. Porbably several SM taks should go down in points, presumably other units I do not know that well.

 Niiai wrote:
Psychocouac I started this thread because the ork nerf in particular seemed hard to implement well. They would probably keep on nerfing all topp winning units, that is the name of the game when you want to do anual balancing. Orks are on that list, Drukhari, Admech, some problematic GK units maybe and the point cost on the contemptor dreadnough volcites. Porbably several SM taks should go down in points, presumably other units I do not know that well.

Yes i read your posts on page 1. But you seem to believe that the top winning units absolutely NEED a nerf. But we are not in the drukh/admech case when you need a FAQ/errata ASAP because they are totally broken and are a threat to the entire competitive scene. Those units are strong yes, so people take them, and in combination with the best trait they can find. But they don't curve the meta around them. The ork winratio is here to prove it.

For myself i would just wait until new codexes come out and the """problem""" will resolve by itself when new oppleasenerf-things will surely appear. I'm eager to see how this "buggie-spam" meta will adapt when GI, craftworld and Tau and their bunch of F7+ weapons are released. Even Genestealer Cult and Custodes stuff this winter will surely bring some surprises.

Psychocouac wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Psychocouac I started this thread because the ork nerf in particular seemed hard to implement well. They would probably keep on nerfing all topp winning units, that is the name of the game when you want to do anual balancing. Orks are on that list, Drukhari, Admech, some problematic GK units maybe and the point cost on the contemptor dreadnough volcites. Porbably several SM taks should go down in points, presumably other units I do not know that well.

Yes i read your posts on page 1. But you seem to believe that the top winning units absolutely NEED a nerf. But we are not in the drukh/admech case when you need a FAQ/errata ASAP because they are totally broken and are a threat to the entire competitive scene. Those units are strong yes, so people take them, and in combination with the best trait they can find. But they don't curve the meta around them. The ork winratio is here to prove it.

For myself i would just wait until new codexes come out and the """problem""" will resolve by itself when new oppleasenerf-things will surely appear. I'm eager to see how this "buggie-spam" meta will adapt when GI, craftworld and Tau and their bunch of F7+ weapons are released. Even Genestealer Cult and Custodes stuff this winter will surely bring some surprises.

"just let the next OP thing fix it" is how 40k got into a position where its apparently 'ok' for games to be decided in 1 turn (and, again, not just talking about Orks here. Admech and Drukhari do it aswell). 9th edition doesn't need more OP gak. It needs everyone to come down in strength so games are decided by more then turn 2.

I mean dakkajets are a bit much with Thier 42 max shots during a speed waaagh even at str 6 ap1 dam1 but what exactly is overpowered again with buggy spam?

Is it the movement 10 toughness 6 platform? Or that amazing 2d6 shots 36in range str 5 ap2 dam 2 shooting…at bs4 with a freebooter trigger.. I mean that mid range bs heavy bolter spam really dominates the meta… if you objectively look at these unit profiles they are aggressively costed but hardly overpowered.. again raise squigbuggies up 10-15 points and the Dakkajet 15 points and it won’t change anything that happened. Heck most ork players would agree with you… but don’t fool yourself into thinking orks are overpowered you are just nerfing orks because they had a decent strong codex list that manhandled a drukari player in a super major tournament once. And yes it’s just once 3x months this dex has been out and orks have not been dominating any tournaments.

 Ordana wrote:

"just let the next OP thing fix it" is how 40k got into a position where its apparently 'ok' for games to be decided in 1 turn (and, again, not just talking about Orks here. Admech and Drukhari do it aswell). 9th edition doesn't need more OP gak. It needs everyone to come down in strength so games are decided by more then turn 2.

As far as i would like this to exist, it's a dream. What you are aiming for is an utopia you can forget it immediatly. I'm playing since the start of 3d edition and there is a gran total of 0 editions that where so balanced that some games weren't decided turn one or two. Heck i've played some that were settled even before deployment. Particularly on the competitive scene where you can find your arch-nemesis list.

And it won't ever be balanced. It's a chimere. It's not a selling point for GW. You are not in control of those things. So far it's just ONE game. If every game with that kind of list was settled like that then ok but come on it's just a particular occurence. Nothing more. As i said in this situation my imperial fist army would have wreck the drukh army. Do you think the IF need a nerf because of that? Or the GI? Or any gunline army? Then quit 40k because gunlines are here since the beginning and are here to stay.

So for now, record the ork results and if it happen again on a regular basis then yes we will discuss about it.

A max cap of two flyers, in any army list. The generic rules of flyers are a big factor in why things get out of hand.

Point balancing and/or unit requirements. Point balancing, is self explanatory but can be a bit of a blunt instrument. Unit requirements, think of the cultist or pox walker cap per other infantry unit - so you aren't allowed to spam many units of those cheap infantry. Perhaps tying multiple buggies to a Mek? Indiviudally the buggies or other units may go up in cost by nothing or a smaller degree but taking multiples of 3 adds an extra chunk in points, limiting the spam.

The issue with the orks units is efficency - they do it so well! They have, bundled together, so many different good ability (range/speed/durability/shooting/melee). Indivudally the specifics don't look all that impressive.

Razerous wrote:
A max cap of two flyers, in any army list. The generic rules of flyers are a big factor in why things get out of hand.

Point balancing and/or unit requirements. Point balancing, is self explanatory but can be a bit of a blunt instrument. Unit requirements, think of the cultist or pox walker cap per other infantry unit - so you aren't allowed to spam many units of those cheap infantry. Perhaps tying multiple buggies to a Mek? Indiviudally the buggies or other units may go up in cost by nothing or a smaller degree but taking multiples of 3 adds an extra chunk in points, limiting the spam.

The issue with the orks units is efficency - they do it so well! They have, bundled together, so many different good ability (range/speed/durability/shooting/melee). Indivudally the specifics don't look all that impressive.

Again this list did not spam anything… also buggies suck in melee and mostly shoot 24in or less weapons w a movement of 10. This isn’t exactly taking over the entire board with thier range.
Every single detachment was a minimum squad of 1 and nothing broke the rule of 3. He even used some of the least effective buggies that were nerfed since in the codex like the shokkjump which can no longer advance and jump every turn. Even if you limited them to a single squad of 3 it wouldn’t change anything… and he took a big Mek anyway…. Cause orks have to anyway in order to get the kff to work. You are going to have to sledge hammer the entire ork codex just to appease drukari incubi spam because most of what you mentioned wouldn’t have change the list that won. Add 15 points to squigbuggies and it’s by far the most expensive buggy and add 15 points to dakkajets and it’s the second most expensive aircraft and this list still would only be down 90 points and he might drop one of the crappier buggies (aka shokkjump). Still the game he won would be the exact same. So you want to keep nerfing the ork codex because of a mismatched tournament win.

Razerous wrote:

Perhaps tying multiple buggies to a Mek? Indiviudally the buggies or other units may go up in cost by nothing or a smaller degree but taking multiples of 3 adds an extra chunk in points, limiting the spam.

Easier fix, eliminate squadrons from buggies. Players could still bring up to 15 buggies (plus up to 3 wartrikes), just up to 3 of each flavour. 3 squigbuggies don't scare anyone, even if they are 10-20 ppm undercosted. Otherwise a points hike wouldn't solve anything. Someone who brings 9 squigbuggies would just bring 8 or 7 at worse, without changing anything else. Or still the same 9 if removing a less performing unit. Make them overcosted and people would bring none.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

Again this list did not spam anything…

4 planes (but even 3) are a perfect example of spam.

 Blackie wrote:

Razerous wrote:

Perhaps tying multiple buggies to a Mek? Indiviudally the buggies or other units may go up in cost by nothing or a smaller degree but taking multiples of 3 adds an extra chunk in points, limiting the spam.

Easier fix, eliminate squadrons from buggies. Players could still bring up to 15 buggies (plus up to 3 wartrikes), just up to 3 of each flavour. 3 squigbuggies don't scare anyone, even if they are 10-20 ppm undercosted. Otherwise a points hike wouldn't solve anything. Someone who brings 9 squigbuggies would just bring 8 or 7 at worse, without changing anything else. Or still the same 9 if removing a less performing unit. Make them overcosted and people would bring none.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

Again this list did not spam anything…

4 planes (but even 3) are a perfect example of spam.

Then erase all squadrons from astra militarum. Erase piranha squadron, broadsides squads, crisis squads. Erase Vyper and craftworld walker squads. Why not erase all squads from the game?

If the "hord" army can't take more than one unit per slot then no other army should.


All of this is just some drukh butthurt. Let me play some sad song on the smallest violin ever.

Not all squads. Models with stats like T5-6 and 4-6W can and should be squadroned. Squadron should be an option for those units that just a bit more than a bike and not enough of a light tank. Deffkoptas, Mek Gunz, Scout Sentinels, War Walkers, Vypers or Attack Bikes, etc... they're all ok as a squadron of vehicles.

T6 8-9 W 4+ and -1D with lots of weapons (ork buggies stats) are already light tanks.

Units like predators, vindicators, leman russes or even SM buggies (8W) definitely shouldn't have the option to be taken as squadrons. The point is the option of bringing lots of models with that profile can easily go into skew territory, which is always bad. And with multiple datasheets of similar stuff, like 5 different datasheets for ork buggies, those who want a thematic army still can do it.

I'm also against squadrons of regular walkers, like ork deff dreads. Just make them better, like SM ones, instead of encouraging their use just by letting the ork player save up slots.

Excepts squadrons had nothing to do with the freak out at the SoCal.

While 4 units of single flyers (2 separate models as well) is a lot and not something I personally enjoy playing it’s not really spam. For reference I own 3 flyers and have played with all 3 before in ork lists in most instances it’s been a detriment even while using freebooter klan as a large portion of your army can’t claim objectives. I honestly never heard anyone have a problem with me using 3 flyers.
Ffs last edition a year ago people regularly used 3x flyers for the eadbutt stratagem. No one called it spam then either.

7th Ed I believe had a air wing detachment of 6 flyers for orks. Other armies tyranids, admech, necrons, etc regularly use more then 4 flyers but for orks it’s now considered spam okayyy.

And I don’t disagree with you about limiting aircraft to 3 total at 2000 points but you are going to butcher other armies not orks..

Squadrons actually hurt buggies, you DONT want to squadron them up...which is why that list didnt squadron them.
He used 2 Outrider detachments, which costs 6cp as it doesnt refund the one the warlord is in and gives him 12 FA and 4 of each other type to play with, only 3 in each detachment of FA is mandatory (and HQ).

I dont know why everyone is screaming to limit aircrafts. Nobody ever thinks to limit the slots when people fill them with 1-2 unit types except for planes for some reason.

Orks are literally supposed to field multiples of anything they bring, thats a design they have followed for years if not decades. Its what lead to Deffdreads being squadrons, they simply were not strong enough to compete with the other heavy slots due to taking 2-3 slots to even do anything.

Yes I believe topp performing units need a nerf if they are over the topp good. It comes with the territory when you rebalance the game with points the way GW do.

There are other models. Hearthstone tweaks cards or ban cards, as well as rotation ever year. Mtg can not tweak cards, they either ban them or let them be until rotation. Moba type games like LOL and Dota nerf and tweak champions that do well in ladder and tournaments. (Although LOL has fundamentally changed up skill trees, jungle and supports, as well as recreated characters from the ground up.)

GW for the most part do not tweak rules. (Rarly, mostly things like rule of tree in 8th edition. As well as scoring end of fifth turn and secondaries.) Too good units gets point increases. Underperforming units should get point decreases. (Unfortunately this later happen rarely. RIP all over costed unit out there.)

gungo wrote:
Excepts squadrons had nothing to do with the freak out at the SoCal.

While 4 units of single flyers (2 separate models as well) is a lot and not something I personally enjoy playing it’s not really spam. For reference I own 3 flyers and have played with all 3 before in ork lists in most instances it’s been a detriment even while using freebooter klan as a large portion of your army can’t claim objectives. I honestly never heard anyone have a problem with me using 3 flyers.
Ffs last edition a year ago people regularly used 3x flyers for the eadbutt stratagem. No one called it spam then either.

7th Ed I believe had a air wing detachment of 6 flyers for orks. Other armies tyranids, admech, necrons, etc regularly use more then 4 flyers but for orks it’s now considered spam okayyy.

And I don’t disagree with you about limiting aircraft to 3 total at 2000 points but you are going to butcher other armies not orks..

We are now in the territory of someone trying to use 7th edition to deflect from Ork issues in 9th.

Next he mentions worthless units that haven’t been good in 2 editions like squigasaur as other strong units. He thinks the wartrike is a good unit when the only reason people take it is that it is one of the only units that can call speed waaagh. He doesn’t even know what’s good or bad and making a bunch of uninformed comments…

The Squigosaur literally just got introduced this book. You really are arguing in bad faith aren't you?

Everyone hold onto your hats. Speed Freeks Army of Renown coming in hot in War Zone Octarius Book 2: Critical Mass

 alextroy wrote:
Everyone hold onto your hats. Speed Freeks Army of Renown coming in hot in War Zone Octarius Book 2: Critical Mass

Yup, it's just gonna add more fuel to the flame of nerf demands assuming it's a flat boost to buggy units instead of other speed freeks like warbikes and deffkoptas. Was hoping for Dred Mob stuff tbh.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Excepts squadrons had nothing to do with the freak out at the SoCal.

While 4 units of single flyers (2 separate models as well) is a lot and not something I personally enjoy playing it’s not really spam. For reference I own 3 flyers and have played with all 3 before in ork lists in most instances it’s been a detriment even while using freebooter klan as a large portion of your army can’t claim objectives. I honestly never heard anyone have a problem with me using 3 flyers.
Ffs last edition a year ago people regularly used 3x flyers for the eadbutt stratagem. No one called it spam then either.

7th Ed I believe had a air wing detachment of 6 flyers for orks. Other armies tyranids, admech, necrons, etc regularly use more then 4 flyers but for orks it’s now considered spam okayyy.

And I don’t disagree with you about limiting aircraft to 3 total at 2000 points but you are going to butcher other armies not orks..

We are now in the territory of someone trying to use 7th edition to deflect from Ork issues in 9th.

Next he mentions worthless units that haven’t been good in 2 editions like squigasaur as other strong units. He thinks the wartrike is a good unit when the only reason people take it is that it is one of the only units that can call speed waaagh. He doesn’t even know what’s good or bad and making a bunch of uninformed comments…

The Squigosaur literally just got introduced this book. You really are arguing in bad faith aren't you?

Don’t feed the troll. The dude loves to browse past arguments until he finds a hill he thinks is worth dying on like in the tournament discussion, thinking orks are exclusively singled out for nerfing because that was the original indication we used to say that this edition is too lethal. Then brings up drukhari and admech like that isn’t another indication the edition is too lethal. And proclaims that our argument is based solely on the tournament orks won in... despite several pages referencing how ineffectual terrain rules are, examples of other match ups, tournaments, and anecdotes. He even ignored responses at his convenience that addressed these issues.

 Sasori wrote:

Forceride wrote:
In my opinion your just bashing 2 good units while you ignore that all armies have good units, should we nerf them too? I can agree the Freeboota pushes it to the top but so far all i see is we won because we can counter drukkari and hard. that's it, even by your own report that's what i get out of it. We Hard counter Drukkari, if we are lucky we can win tournaments if we ourselves do not meet the armies that handle us well.

You act like there are not plenty of other good untis in the Ork codex. You still have amazing units like the Killrig, Wartrikes, Squigasaur, etc. let's do ourselves a favor here and not pretend like there are not other strong options available. If "Winning only because you counter Drukhari" is all you are getting by my posts you need to re-read it, because that is not at all what I said. Orks are also not "lucky" if they can win tournaments, otherwise they would not be doing so consistently.

Don't be disingenuous, you know full well that viable is different from competitive. Yes we have a lot of viable units but a only a handful of competitive ones. There's a reason why we spam the same units. There's a reason why you barely see boy'z, lootas, noobz etc... GW made most of what was competitive before only viable and made buggies/flyers the default units of the codex for shooting. The units you just listed are most melee lists, currently our alpha list... speaks volumes of how much you know our codex. The squigasaur is not even competitive! Wartrike is not event taken for killing potential it's only for the speedwaagh buff.. make yourself a favour and go read our thread in our units viability!

I shrug when other armies don't account for the fact we are now vehicle/flyer heavy or fast alpha, that's the codex in the nutshell. That's why many orks are reacting this way because your taking away our only tools aka de-teething the codex ... if you don't have the tools you get stomped. Same happened to me when i was outmatched many times. I didn't came here and started screaming nerf, i learned the army strengths and tried to play around them.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Excepts squadrons had nothing to do with the freak out at the SoCal.

While 4 units of single flyers (2 separate models as well) is a lot and not something I personally enjoy playing it’s not really spam. For reference I own 3 flyers and have played with all 3 before in ork lists in most instances it’s been a detriment even while using freebooter klan as a large portion of your army can’t claim objectives. I honestly never heard anyone have a problem with me using 3 flyers.
Ffs last edition a year ago people regularly used 3x flyers for the eadbutt stratagem. No one called it spam then either.

7th Ed I believe had a air wing detachment of 6 flyers for orks. Other armies tyranids, admech, necrons, etc regularly use more then 4 flyers but for orks it’s now considered spam okayyy.

And I don’t disagree with you about limiting aircraft to 3 total at 2000 points but you are going to butcher other armies not orks..

We are now in the territory of someone trying to use 7th edition to deflect from Ork issues in 9th.

Next he mentions worthless units that haven’t been good in 2 editions like squigasaur as other strong units. He thinks the wartrike is a good unit when the only reason people take it is that it is one of the only units that can call speed waaagh. He doesn’t even know what’s good or bad and making a bunch of uninformed comments…

The Squigosaur literally just got introduced this book. You really are arguing in bad faith aren't you?

My point was every single edition ork has used multiple flyers without issues I went back to 7th doesn’t mean I was basing my point on 7th. You are being disingenuous if you actually believe 7th Ed was the point I was making.

I mistakenly meant squiggoth not squigasaur… regardless the squigasaur has been available since July in most tournaments even though the model just went on sale a month ago…and it really hasn’t made much of an impact on tournaments since it doesn’t mix well with speedwaagh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

macluvin wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

gungo wrote:
Excepts squadrons had nothing to do with the freak out at the SoCal.

While 4 units of single flyers (2 separate models as well) is a lot and not something I personally enjoy playing it’s not really spam. For reference I own 3 flyers and have played with all 3 before in ork lists in most instances it’s been a detriment even while using freebooter klan as a large portion of your army can’t claim objectives. I honestly never heard anyone have a problem with me using 3 flyers.
Ffs last edition a year ago people regularly used 3x flyers for the eadbutt stratagem. No one called it spam then either.

7th Ed I believe had a air wing detachment of 6 flyers for orks. Other armies tyranids, admech, necrons, etc regularly use more then 4 flyers but for orks it’s now considered spam okayyy.

And I don’t disagree with you about limiting aircraft to 3 total at 2000 points but you are going to butcher other armies not orks..

We are now in the territory of someone trying to use 7th edition to deflect from Ork issues in 9th.

Next he mentions worthless units that haven’t been good in 2 editions like squigasaur as other strong units. He thinks the wartrike is a good unit when the only reason people take it is that it is one of the only units that can call speed waaagh. He doesn’t even know what’s good or bad and making a bunch of uninformed comments…

The Squigosaur literally just got introduced this book. You really are arguing in bad faith aren't you?

Don’t feed the troll. The dude loves to browse past arguments until he finds a hill he thinks is worth dying on like in the tournament discussion, thinking orks are exclusively singled out for nerfing because that was the original indication we used to say that this edition is too lethal. Then brings up drukhari and admech like that isn’t another indication the edition is too lethal. And proclaims that our argument is based solely on the tournament orks won in... despite several pages referencing how ineffectual terrain rules are, examples of other match ups, tournaments, and anecdotes. He even ignored responses at his convenience that addressed these issues.

Oh please just because I didn’t respond to your gak the last 4 hours as I was spending Halloween with my kids doesn’t mean I was ignoring your nonsense. But regardless you are not that special regardless what your mom tells you. You literally have no idea what you are talking about saying I troll the forum looking for discussions to argue about as I haven’t Argued on any discussions especially outside the ork forum in years. You are literally just making gak up becuase you don’t have a clue. I didn’t just bring up drukari and ad mech. I listed win rates for orks at 50%, I listed major tournament placings the last few weeks that show orks are not wiping out other armies regularly. And I listed all the other armies that have better placings and win rates then orks which does include ad mech and drukari but also grey knights, sisters, and other armies who placed just as well as orks such as death guard. You can cherry pick admech and drukari all you want but I listed several codexs with better placing and win rates since the ork codex came out. But you ignored all that and instead keep bringing up the socal list and occasionally mannys 18x buggy spam which took out almost 1000 points of the other army (again vs drukari) and wasn’t even using freebooters but instead bloodaxes and had zero aircraft (dakkajets/wazbom)…. And then use those 2 tournaments and say orks are regularly wiping out thier opponent first turn. Which is utter horsecrap. Not to mention both those lists are extremely difffrent 1 is shooty with heavy emphasis on speedwaagh and flyers and the other has a heavy assault mortal wound element.

Regarding your nonsense about orks ignoring terrain rules. Orks ignore 1 rule (obscuring) with 1 unit (squigbuggy) and has 1 weapon that shoots 36in and the rest shoot 18in or less. It’s also only str5. So the only troll is you as I haven’t attacked posters and needed to just make up gak about people and talk out my ass like you did.

Regardless Gw is apparently buffing speedwaagh not nerfing it as they are just throwing a bunch of new rules in the upcoming campaign book at it…. Not exactly the army list I was hoping would get buffed.

An answer to all flyers is needed as regardless of the codex they have obscene movement which combined with their basing allows flyers to ignore lots of terrain / LOS blocking.

So to tackle any effecient flyer = add a point premium, a CP tax, a max limit or a CP/point tax on subsequent picks (i.e. two Patrol detachment). Given GW previous balances, a simple point balance is most likely, of at anything.

Buggies aren't bad in melee? A whirlwind is bad in melee.

And Ramshackle.. is it a bit too strong when applied to very effecient vehicle wounds? Or is it irrelevant to the main issue which is the alpha strike? Has there been gaming winning beta strikes?

Fixing Freebooterz could be as simple as:

Each time a FREEBOOTERZ unit from your army destroys an enemy unit, after that unit’s attacks have been resolved, until the end of the phase, each time an attack is made by another FREEBOOTERZ unit with this kultur (excluding AIRCRAFT) from your army, add 1 to that attack’s hit roll.

So a Freebooterz aircraft could still trigger the ability, but cannot directly benefit from the ability. As for the Dakkajet, knock it up 10 points. Then with the 2 additional Supa-shootas that'd make it 130, same as the point cost as the Ad-Mech Fusilave (Fusilave's Bomb Rack needs to be nerfed to mortal wounds on a 5+).

Then finally, as a more general game balance change. I'd reduce the amount of Flyer slots in Patrols, Outriders, Vanguards, and Spearheads to 0 - 1 instead of 0 - 2.

Jarms48 wrote:
Fixing Freebooterz could be as simple as:

Each time a FREEBOOTERZ unit from your army destroys an enemy unit, after that unit’s attacks have been resolved, until the end of the phase, each time an attack is made by another FREEBOOTERZ unit with this kultur (excluding AIRCRAFT) from your army, add 1 to that attack’s hit roll.

So a Freebooterz aircraft could still trigger the ability, but cannot directly benefit from the ability. As for the Dakkajet, knock it up 10 points. Then with the 2 additional Supa-shootas that'd make it 130, same as the point cost as the Ad-Mech Fusilave (Fusilave's Bomb Rack needs to be nerfed to mortal wounds on a 5+).

Then finally, as a more general game balance change. I'd reduce the amount of Flyer slots in Patrols to 0 - 1 instead of 0 - 2.

This could work well. Especially since it would address both Ork and AdMech flyers. Other armies wouldn't be affected really as none of their flyers are spammed as heavily (in fact I'd argue that most of the other flyers in the game are seriously overcosted, but that's a discussion for another thread).

But is that even the problem?
They were also complaining of Mani’s 18x buggy list and that was bloodaxe not freebooter and had zero aircraft in the list..

It was also more of a shooty list with assault elements instead of all in on shooting.

Also the issue I saw at socal wasn’t just speedwaaagh shooting but the fact the player screened out assault using the flyers bases…limiting patrol to 0-1 wouldn’t have prevented that as well since he used 2x outrider detachments not patrol and had 2x aircraft in each outrider.

I’d raise dakkajets 15pts (5base and 5 per suppashoota), I’d raise squigbuggy 10pts, I’d allow player to assault and move on and through aircraft bases. (Yup that means allowing player to move models onto the aircraft base as of it was not there). I don’t think freebooters kultur is really the problem nor do I think the scrapjet is an issue. I’d probably raise the Killrig 10pts as well and that hasn’t even been a tourney issue yet. I’d make all detachments 0-1 aircraft except battalion/brigade 0-2. I mean 3 detachment lists can still have 3 flyers or battalion plus another detachment.

gungo wrote:
But is that even the problem?
They were also complaining of Mani’s 18x buggy list and that was bloodaxe not freebooter and had zero aircraft in the list..

That's why I'd remove squadron from buggies. That list was 18 buggies with only two flavours of buggies. That's the very definition of spam and spam is never good.

Does a squadron of 100ish ppm models make sense anyway? I think it doesn't.

About flyers I could be biased as I hate them and I'd never field more than one in 2000 points games. They sure are a type of models that I wish it were significantly limited regardless of how good they are. But since they bring several mehcanics problems when a bunch of effective flyers are part of a list I don't think it's really a personal thing when I call for capping the number of flyers allowed.

I’m fine with limiting it to 3. I only ever played 2-3. Last edition regularly used at least 2 for eadbutt strstegem. I’m not so sure this helps armies like Tyranids.

Well, limiting the strong Ork units is something GW will hardly consider.
There is no large scale evidence of the Ork's dominance at the tourney level.
Thus it appears we will have to live with it.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, limiting the strong Ork units is something GW will hardly consider.
There is no large scale evidence of the Ork's dominance at the tourney level.
Thus it appears we will have to live with it.

Honestly aircraft rules might change if someone keeps screening like that, but it really depends on how this new supplement buffs up an already strong list. I agree orks are mostly balanced to the top 5-6 codexs. But this list could become ad mech levels (or heaven forbid iron hands levels of bad with more tacked on rules from the new campaign). The army of renown really should have been dread Waagh or beast snagga…

 Niiai wrote:


GW for the most part do not tweak rules. (Rarly, mostly things like rule of tree in 8th edition. As well as scoring end of fifth turn and secondaries.) Too good units gets point increases. Underperforming units should get point decreases. (Unfortunately this later happen rarely. RIP all over costed unit out there.)

They do in Age of Sigmar.

It's weird how little 40k players seem to know how good Sigmar has it, and how little theyre interested in holding GW's feet to the fire and demanding products of just very very slightly less anti-consumer quality.

For a full edition sigmar had all unit stats free (you only had to buy the army book if you wanted the Matched Play specific rules like subfaction traits relics etc - new Sigmar players could actually play a real, functional game using the rules GW gave away for free - a wild, crazy way to get new players actually invested in building up armies, I know!

and instead of just piling on to the choo choo bloat train with the mid edition campaign books, Sigmar actually used them as an opportunity to update out of date unit stats and give under-performing categories of units a buff, all simultaneously.

For example: Monsters in sigmar 2.0 weren't doing so hot, so they added a special, faction-specific bonus trait similar to a warlord trait that you'd get on one monster in your army (because, of course, the ideal would be players gravitating towards an army with some infantry, some character, and some monster instead of incentivizing spamming)

I play what will soon be the oldest Age of Sigmar army I believe (idoneth) and of the units in my book, I've had updated datasheets for Eiodolons, Allopexes, Leviadons, and my faction terrain piece, as well as the points updates from generals handbooks.

Wait are you saying that rulechanges between editions? Well imagine my supriced face. Here I thought the only change in rules books between editions was to updatethe pictures.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:


GW for the most part do not tweak rules. (Rarly, mostly things like rule of tree in 8th edition. As well as scoring end of fifth turn and secondaries.) Too good units gets point increases. Underperforming units should get point decreases. (Unfortunately this later happen rarely. RIP all over costed unit out there.)

They do in Age of Sigmar.

It's weird how little 40k players seem to know how good Sigmar has it, and how little theyre interested in holding GW's feet to the fire and demanding products of just very very slightly less anti-consumer quality.

For a full edition sigmar had all unit stats free (you only had to buy the army book if you wanted the Matched Play specific rules like subfaction traits relics etc - new Sigmar players could actually play a real, functional game using the rules GW gave away for free - a wild, crazy way to get new players actually invested in building up armies, I know!

and instead of just piling on to the choo choo bloat train with the mid edition campaign books, Sigmar actually used them as an opportunity to update out of date unit stats and give under-performing categories of units a buff, all simultaneously.

For example: Monsters in sigmar 2.0 weren't doing so hot, so they added a special, faction-specific bonus trait similar to a warlord trait that you'd get on one monster in your army (because, of course, the ideal would be players gravitating towards an army with some infantry, some character, and some monster instead of incentivizing spamming)

I play what will soon be the oldest Age of Sigmar army I believe (idoneth) and of the units in my book, I've had updated datasheets for Eiodolons, Allopexes, Leviadons, and my faction terrain piece, as well as the points updates from generals handbooks.

40k and AoS are effectively made by different companies. There is no talk and sharing of ideas between the 2 studio's.

 Ordana wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Niiai wrote:


GW for the most part do not tweak rules. (Rarly, mostly things like rule of tree in 8th edition. As well as scoring end of fifth turn and secondaries.) Too good units gets point increases. Underperforming units should get point decreases. (Unfortunately this later happen rarely. RIP all over costed unit out there.)

They do in Age of Sigmar.

It's weird how little 40k players seem to know how good Sigmar has it, and how little theyre interested in holding GW's feet to the fire and demanding products of just very very slightly less anti-consumer quality.

For a full edition sigmar had all unit stats free (you only had to buy the army book if you wanted the Matched Play specific rules like subfaction traits relics etc - new Sigmar players could actually play a real, functional game using the rules GW gave away for free - a wild, crazy way to get new players actually invested in building up armies, I know!

and instead of just piling on to the choo choo bloat train with the mid edition campaign books, Sigmar actually used them as an opportunity to update out of date unit stats and give under-performing categories of units a buff, all simultaneously.

For example: Monsters in sigmar 2.0 weren't doing so hot, so they added a special, faction-specific bonus trait similar to a warlord trait that you'd get on one monster in your army (because, of course, the ideal would be players gravitating towards an army with some infantry, some character, and some monster instead of incentivizing spamming)

I play what will soon be the oldest Age of Sigmar army I believe (idoneth) and of the units in my book, I've had updated datasheets for Eiodolons, Allopexes, Leviadons, and my faction terrain piece, as well as the points updates from generals handbooks.

40k and AoS are effectively made by different companies. There is no talk and sharing of ideas between the 2 studio's.

If you dont think the higher ups at Games Workshop are analyzing what the market will bear when it comes to things like manufactured discontent (how bad they can allow out of date units to become before their sales drop unacceptably) and applying it to both 40k (a game primarily about retaining an existing audience) and age of sigmar (a game primarily about growing a new audience) then I have a bridge to sell you.

There is a reason why loyalist, but not Chaos space marine factions got holdover rules moving them to the new wound paradigm. GW's rules releases are heavily tied to their market analytics, and they know which of their market segments will bear being left in an essentially unplayable state for a long period of time and which will impact their sales negatively if they dont continuously ensure that they stay somewhat competitive.

After playing some more games and trying to think of what a reasonable solution might be I think i came up with something that does address the freeboota buggie spam list while not nerfing it or the rest of the codex into the ground. Bringing back the rule of only being able to call a waaagh (or now speedwaaagh) turn 2 or later.

Also on the above comments about squigosaurs and squigriders they are ok, but a squig list cannot beat admech or drukari and having tried max squig rider armies... its just not strong enough, too few wounds on to delicate of models for the points they get shot up before they can do much. Killrig is alright but nto the end all OP thing people seem to think it was going to be. I 3d printed one before the codex was even out and found it usually earns back its points but its a distraction carnifex that dies soon after.

Given the current win rates for orks in tournaments its very dependent on a few good units (dakka jets and squigwagon and scrapjets) a lot of the codex is meh. All ork infantry ranges from only taken to get objectives and secondaries, to so terrible its not even good for that (looking at you our entire troop selection outside 1 unit of trukk boyz per detachment and only then due to a gimmick). All increasing points on the few good units will accomplish is taking orks from the middle of the pack back down to the bottom of the pack.

All that said I do think the Freeboota list as it is will be good for the meta as its hard countering drukari and people will i am sure keep bringing that. Drukari players adapting will have to change things up and thus not be able to destroy space marine, necrons and custodes as easily meaning a mroe balanced game. The alternative if bringing down Drukari and admec through rules balances and point adjustments but its been so long i do not think GW has any plans to fix them.

A big issue with the dakkajet is it's ROF output (at decent S and AP) for it's points cost. Compare to say a nephilim jetfighter.
However, the one other issue is ramshackle as almost the majority of weapons that are ideal for taking out air (and the ones actually designed for it) are S7 D2. So you actually have to heavily invest more into S8+ to get a reasonable return (or high ROF S4/5/6). Vs a 160pt fighter, I could live with that, but not the current dakkajet cost.

fortunately, my game vs them this weekend features a lot of that bracket firepower...overcharged plasma, MMs, twin assault cannon/twin hvy bolter, MC plasma cannon, and a cyclone. Now if i had more S7 weapons...ouch.

Ultimately I think dakkajets could go up 15 points with killrigs and squigbuggies at least 10pts.

BUT now with orks getting a campaign book next week specifically for speedfreak and a bloodaxe codex I expect this build to change and freebooter might not even be the go to klan anymore… which should make Dakkajet spam less ideal… in other words if bloodaxe or evilsun buggy lists gets any noticeable boost it should dethrone freebooter. Bloodaxe is already almost as popular as freebooter klan for competitive 40K.

Why do people keep complaining about orks spamming stuff?, that’s literally the entire point of a horde army. Our actual horde lost a) good reliable buffs, b) got more expensive, and c) had their faction special rules nerfed. Because of this we switched to vehicle hordes.

Also, why all the hate towards fliers?, they seem pretty fine. I know anecdotes don’t hold up too well, but in my experience my fliers have always gotten shot down pretty well. I think you guys just don’t bring actual anti vehicle anymore, autocannon plinks are a thing of 7th.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Why do people keep complaining about orks spamming stuff?, that’s literally the entire point of a horde army. Our actual horde lost a) good reliable buffs, b) got more expensive, and c) had their faction special rules nerfed. Because of this we switched to vehicle hordes.

Also, why all the hate towards fliers?, they seem pretty fine. I know anecdotes don’t hold up too well, but in my experience my fliers have always gotten shot down pretty well. I think you guys just don’t bring actual anti vehicle anymore, autocannon plinks are a thing of 7th.

Aircraft do have the issue that they can block Charges, which is non-sensical.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Aircraft do have the issue that they can block Charges, which is non-sensical.

It is non sensical, but it's probably for gameplay reason. Imagine moving a bunch of units in close combat and trying to have them pile in, but the base gets in the way and then your opponents wants to move his plane next round. It's a bit messy and unpractical. Yes, it can lead to abuse like using those huge base for sreening, but removing that rule does lead to other problems too like calculating models affected by auras and moving things around.

At this point, since facing is irrelevant for shooting anyway. And planes are generally so difficult to interact with anyway. Just have the plane models stand at the edge of the the player board on turn 1 to represent them in flight coming in for their shooting or bombing run. Then on turn 2, they just fly in a straight line across to the other board edge and stay there at the very edge while doing their shooting, bombing run.

Turn 3, turn those flyers around and they do their shooting, bombing run again while flying back to the player board edge.

Turn 4, again turn around, flyers shooting bombing run to opponent board edge.

Turn 5, the planes have flown off. So, you get 3 turns of shooting with the planes on turn 2,3,4. And the planes don't get to do dumb things like move blocking stuff.

And opponent gets turn 1, 2, 3, 4 to shoot down those planes if he wants to.

If any enemy ground unit wants to come in from a board edge (like from deep strike or infiltrate) and somehow the two bases interact, the ground unit has priority, so literally move the plane base out of the way while keeping it on the board edge. Because the planes are just there to represent their presence in the air on the battlefield, their actual physical positioning is irrelevant. They are just "overhead".

epronovost wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Aircraft do have the issue that they can block Charges, which is non-sensical.

It is non sensical, but it's probably for gameplay reason. Imagine moving a bunch of units in close combat and trying to have them pile in, but the base gets in the way and then your opponents wants to move his plane next round. It's a bit messy and unpractical. Yes, it can lead to abuse like using those huge base for sreening, but removing that rule does lead to other problems too like calculating models affected by auras and moving things around.

Exactly, I wouldn't allow my opponent to put his models over my flyer's base miniature if GW decided to fix the problem that way. That would be too annoying.

Easiest fix would be to limit such flyers to 1 or 2 in 2000 points games. After all they're basically centerpiece models due to their sizes. I'd handle them as superheavies maybe, with their own 1 slot detachment for 1CP.

Fixes for plane base issues
- allow movement onto base as if it’s not there
- allow assault through base, letting units hit other units within 1in of aircraft base.
- treat aircraft like all other vehicles allowing assault on flyers even if you don’t have fly, not realistic

I mean this is one of the main reasons why people are freaking out over socal but instead just blaming ork codex. Had this guy not abused flyer base rules he would have lost 3 buggies and not killed as many drukari first turn. It’s janky abuse of rules that needs to be fixed. Limiting it to 2-3 flyers doesn’t fix this issue.

Nayden took the same list to Battle for Salvation and one of my friends spoke to him and he presumably confessed to taking that list as a bit of a meme. Venoms are a lot easier to kill in one go than raiders, but Ork list brutalizes DE.

These were the Ork player scores:

86 to 24 v Salamanders
95 to 49 v DW
98 to 33 v GK
100 to 32 v Sisters
46 to 96 Admech
100 to 10 DE

This Ork list absolutely mulches DE ( and hammers most everything else ), but lost to Admech ( likely went second ), which just cements Admech as the real problem army ( in my mind ) with flyers in general being the next big issue then raiders / buggies.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nayden took the same list to Battle for Salvation and one of my friends spoke to him and he presumably confessed to taking that list as a bit of a meme. Venoms are a lot easier to kill in one go than raiders, but Ork list brutalizes DE.

These were the Ork player scores:

86 to 24 v Salamanders
95 to 49 v DW
98 to 33 v GK
100 to 32 v Sisters
46 to 96 Admech
100 to 10 DE

This Ork list absolutely mulches DE ( and hammers most everything else ), but lost to Admech ( likely went second ), which just cements Admech as the real problem army ( in my mind ) with flyers in general being the next big issue then raiders / buggies.

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

gungo wrote:
Ultimately I think dakkajets could go up 15 points with killrigs and squigbuggies at least 10pts.

BUT now with orks getting a campaign book next week specifically for speedfreak and a bloodaxe codex I expect this build to change and freebooter might not even be the go to klan anymore… which should make Dakkajet spam less ideal… in other words if bloodaxe or evilsun buggy lists gets any noticeable boost it should dethrone freebooter. Bloodaxe is already almost as popular as freebooter klan for competitive 40K.

Ugg. Ugg. Ugg. Uuuuuuugggggg.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

They do pretty well without Freebooterz. I don't think they should be nerfed in accordance with Freebooter capability though. I almost think they should change it to the next unit that shoots gets +1 to hit and then they have to kill again to activate another bonus.

But that could make them potentially useless so...bleh.

Bggies do pretty well yes, they are a good unit for the points in the codex. When i run them with my evil sunz as a speed freeks theme with a bunch of bikes I don't think any of my opponents have ever thought the buggies were OP and my group is pretty free about calling out bed unit design or things being crazy good for the points.

Honestly, if i could change one thing about 8th and 9th i would take away all of these layered chapter/clan rules from every codex. It just means that one thing will stack on top of units and make for some broken things. then the response is usually units that work for that strong sub faction keyword being nerfed themselves making them terrible for other armies that were using them.

i'm fine with layering rules when theyre subtle. Adding to damage output is usually not subtle, while say +1 to move, ability to traverse a terrain type easier, better overwatch, attack range, or objective/action based perks are subtle.
When they add blanketed +1 AP, attack, hit, wound, or rerolls it gets problematic.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i'm fine with layering rules when theyre subtle. Adding to damage output is usually not subtle, while say +1 to move, ability to traverse a terrain type easier, better overwatch, attack range, or objective/action based perks are subtle.
When they add blanketed +1 AP, attack, hit, wound, or rerolls it gets problematic.

in theory I agree with you, the problem is there is almost always a stand out one or 2 that just make the others irrelevant. take last ork codex and every army was deathskulls. .. whould i do +1 move ... or reroll 1 to hit, 1 to shoot, one damage, and a 6+ invulnerable for the whole army. suddenly every ork army was deathskulls and now its all freebootaz. personally i think freebootaz should have been +1 shot to dakka type weapons or 1 reroll to hit per unit

See and the last codex deathskullz was just poor valuing of what is actually strong.
For some reason Deathskullz got like 5 perks (6++, reroll 1 hit, reroll 1 wound, reroll 1 damage, infantry obsec). Everyone else got at most 2, and usually one of them was extremely situational if not flatout bad.
Heck deathskullz single die reroll because of the wound and damage outdamaged badmoonz in shooting who rerolls all 1s to hit, because aside from Boyz, Lootas (that rolled a 3), and Dakkajets nothing shot enough shots for the reroll 1s to outpace the 1 reroll in all phases of an attack. Plus, it worked in melee, badmoonz didnt. Had the Badmoonz one worked in melee too we might've seen badmoonz as often since their melee would be unusually lethal, despite not being goff lol. Which just attests to a blanket reroll can be too much.

Last codex made no sense with kultures, in several ways not just that one. This one is 'slightly' better but still has some issues floating around, most notably half of snakebites doesnt work except on 3 units in the entire army and Freeboota +1 to hit is nuts when our guns are actually strong w/o it now.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nayden took the same list to Battle for Salvation and one of my friends spoke to him and he presumably confessed to taking that list as a bit of a meme. Venoms are a lot easier to kill in one go than raiders, but Ork list brutalizes DE.

These were the Ork player scores:

86 to 24 v Salamanders
95 to 49 v DW
98 to 33 v GK
100 to 32 v Sisters
46 to 96 Admech
100 to 10 DE

This Ork list absolutely mulches DE ( and hammers most everything else ), but lost to Admech ( likely went second ), which just cements Admech as the real problem army ( in my mind ) with flyers in general being the next big issue then raiders / buggies.

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

Speedwaah is also a big part. We know from Space Marines 2.0 what giving an army a (near) blanket -1 AP does and they also made it add extra shots for even more facepalm.

I think Freebootaz kulture could probably be changed to +1 to hit within 12" of the destroyed target, or reroll 1s to hit after destroying.

These aren't as overtuned as the current version, but are by no means weak or bad.

Regardless, I still prefer Blood Axes for splashable buggies. Freebootaz kind of requires you to go all in on spam units, whereas Blood Axes is just generally good on everything.


Waaagh and Speedwaaagh maybe could be changed to exclude flyers. Supersonic jets being able to accurately see what their colleagues on the ground are getting up to feels appropriate for pretty much everything but Orks.

Ork pilots are usually the best of the best, read deff skwadron.

On the topic of planes though, a ton of armies have things dedicated to taking out aircraft, why not go with those?, they seem prevalent enough in the meta to be useful.
You can also just take some s8 shooting, anything melta demolishes buggies.

people dont like using dedicated AA weapons because if you dont face one its 'dead weight'

Anything that shakes up the cookiecutter list, whether its actually OP or not, causes flaming threads to pop up.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nayden took the same list to Battle for Salvation and one of my friends spoke to him and he presumably confessed to taking that list as a bit of a meme. Venoms are a lot easier to kill in one go than raiders, but Ork list brutalizes DE.

These were the Ork player scores:

86 to 24 v Salamanders
95 to 49 v DW
98 to 33 v GK
100 to 32 v Sisters
46 to 96 Admech
100 to 10 DE

This Ork list absolutely mulches DE ( and hammers most everything else ), but lost to Admech ( likely went second ), which just cements Admech as the real problem army ( in my mind ) with flyers in general being the next big issue then raiders / buggies.

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

I mean speedwaagh winning isn’t just freebooter. The only other example of speed Waagh first turn being to strong is mannys 18x buggy spam list which cleared 1000 pts (again drukari) in the final. His list consisted of 2 buggies: squigbuggy, scrapjet and a big Mek… it was bloodaxe klan not freebooter and had no fliers… it also hasn’t won since that major tournament. But then again there isn’t a whole lot of examples of speedwaagh wiping out 75%+ of a players army turn 1 in major tournaments. Just 1 real example that abused flyer bases and a bunch of uninformed speculations.

Regardless I think freebooter isn’t the issue and won’t be for long. This campaign book is going to boost nonfreebooter ork speedwaagh and will likely result in squigbuggies needing a point hike. Maybe scrapjets too but they really aren’t that much better then Other buggies.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
See and the last codex deathskullz was just poor valuing of what is actually strong.
For some reason Deathskullz got like 5 perks (6++, reroll 1 hit, reroll 1 wound, reroll 1 damage, infantry obsec). Everyone else got at most 2, and usually one of them was extremely situational if not flatout bad.
Heck deathskullz single die reroll because of the wound and damage outdamaged badmoonz in shooting who rerolls all 1s to hit, because aside from Boyz, Lootas (that rolled a 3), and Dakkajets nothing shot enough shots for the reroll 1s to outpace the 1 reroll in all phases of an attack. Plus, it worked in melee, badmoonz didnt. Had the Badmoonz one worked in melee too we might've seen badmoonz as often since their melee would be unusually lethal, despite not being goff lol. Which just attests to a blanket reroll can be too much.

Last codex made no sense with kultures, in several ways not just that one. This one is 'slightly' better but still has some issues floating around, most notably half of snakebites doesnt work except on 3 units in the entire army and Freeboota +1 to hit is nuts when our guns are actually strong w/o it now.

Deathskullz got valued that way in 8th, because of the SSAG. Everyone was really just after rerolls on high impact low shot weapons.

What makes Freebooterz notable now is that it did change to remove the 24" restriction. Getting a Dakkajet an angle on a weak unit is a super easy way to trigger a table-wide bonus.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
See and the last codex deathskullz was just poor valuing of what is actually strong.
For some reason Deathskullz got like 5 perks (6++, reroll 1 hit, reroll 1 wound, reroll 1 damage, infantry obsec). Everyone else got at most 2, and usually one of them was extremely situational if not flatout bad.
Heck deathskullz single die reroll because of the wound and damage outdamaged badmoonz in shooting who rerolls all 1s to hit, because aside from Boyz, Lootas (that rolled a 3), and Dakkajets nothing shot enough shots for the reroll 1s to outpace the 1 reroll in all phases of an attack. Plus, it worked in melee, badmoonz didnt. Had the Badmoonz one worked in melee too we might've seen badmoonz as often since their melee would be unusually lethal, despite not being goff lol. Which just attests to a blanket reroll can be too much.

Last codex made no sense with kultures, in several ways not just that one. This one is 'slightly' better but still has some issues floating around, most notably half of snakebites doesnt work except on 3 units in the entire army and Freeboota +1 to hit is nuts when our guns are actually strong w/o it now.

Deathskullz got valued that way in 8th, because of the SSAG. Everyone was really just after rerolls on high impact low shot weapons.

What makes Freebooterz notable now is that it did change to remove the 24" restriction. Getting a Dakkajet an angle on a weak unit is a super easy way to trigger a table-wide bonus.

OK, bring back the 24" restriction.

It'll change literally nothing. I'll fly a single dakkajet into the middle of the table, shoot one thing, and the whole board will have the buff.

the 24" range thing was just fiddly.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
people dont like using dedicated AA weapons because if you dont face one its 'dead weight'

Anything that shakes up the cookiecutter list, whether its actually OP or not, causes flaming threads to pop up.

I actively promote Heldrakes and Traktor Kannons, personally.

Marines don't have it too great though.

A Hunter seems great on paper, but needing to save CP in the even you flub the wound roll is a bit annoying at 110 points - moreso if they spike a 5+ or 6+ save. A Stalker pushes the same number of shots at ground targets as two suppressors for 115. That's a lot of premium to double your shots versus aircraft.

If I were guaranteed to hit flyers in a tournament I'd start learning towards grabbing a Hunter, but the hardest part would be figuring out what HS slot to open up.

Yeah the 24" bubble didnt do anything more than annoy people. It was a 24" bubble focused on the target that got a kill, the moment something else got a kill theres a 2nd 24" bubble.
Only way it actually got in the way was when you had random units across the board, which gunlines never really do anyway.

For orks, if we have something off on its own its probably kommandoz, stormboyz, or meganobz. None of which are really factoring here.

 the_scotsman wrote:

OK, bring back the 24" restriction.

It'll change literally nothing. I'll fly a single dakkajet into the middle of the table, shoot one thing, and the whole board will have the buff.

the 24" range thing was just fiddly.

Fiddly, yes. I agree the rule is "better" now, but it still creates a problem. There should be some limitation there.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

OK, bring back the 24" restriction.

It'll change literally nothing. I'll fly a single dakkajet into the middle of the table, shoot one thing, and the whole board will have the buff.

the 24" range thing was just fiddly.

Fiddly, yes. I agree the rule is "better" now, but it still creates a problem. There should be some limitation there.

There is a limitation there. Until you destroy a unit, you have no subfaction trait. When the normal damage that a unit could output was roughly 25% of their value before using stratagems, you would have to either choose:

-do I burn my CP to get the initial unit kill, and use it less efficiently?

-do I wait to use my CP until after, in which case more of my units have attacked without a subfaction trait bonus?

Now that normal firepower is more like 50% value, you pick one unit, you pick one enemy unit worth roughly half as much, and you blow them away with a single shooting attack.

The people scratching their heads going "Hmmm what could possibly have changed here" are really quite amusing tbh.

I'lll give you a hint:

<.<

>.>

games workshop made everything in the codex do more damage for its cost. Like theyve done with most units in most 9e codexes.

I’m just going to wait til Saturday when we get the full campaign leaks and either evil suns or bloodaxe rules have people forgetting about freebooters which isn’t the real problem.

The big change to the freebootaz trait was that not needing to be in range of something let you affect models in transports. Niche as heck but certainly fun. The idea of a bunch of freebootaz driving around in transports unloading dakka makes me smile.

But nerfing it is hard since it's incredibly meta reliant and swingy. Your opponent is MSU? Yeah you get the trait off easy. Your opponent is knights? Some turns it may not even trigger.

The person I play frequently made a few mistakes here and there, let me trigger it by firing off a single Dakkajet Supashoota by having a single model/wound plasmacyte hanging out in an awkward spot. But if your opponent is one of those few nutjobs taking big, chunky units then well, your list is not going to function great.

The proper way to implement flying units:

cody.d. wrote:


But nerfing it is hard since it's incredibly meta reliant and swingy. Your opponent is MSU? Yeah you get the trait off easy. Your opponent is knights? Some turns it may not even trigger.

You play 1000 points or lower? Trait may not trigger at all. Do you play mixed klans army, say 50% goffs and 50% freebooters (which is what I actually play )? Trait may not trigger at all.

So yeah, it's extremely meta reliant and swingy. A full 2000 points freebooters army that spams the best shooting units can cause devastation, sure but otherwise the trait might be the worst in the entire codex. Nerfing it would mean killing the klan off completely outside a few gimmick lists maybe, which would be bad.

Correct the gimmicks, nerfs the skew lists, not the core klan/faction rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I actively promote Heldrakes and Traktor Kannons, personally.

Traktor Kannons are incredibly useful, among the 3 mek gunz I typically play one is always a traktor. Even against lists with no aircraft they're cheap enough to be worthy of their points cost, and against vehicles with FLY, which are very common for drukhari, craftworlds, space marines and harlequins they still get a damage bonus. They're also the only ork unit that natively hit on 3s.

 Niiai wrote:
This is not about the sky is falling. Or 'crying about drukahri losing to orks' gungo puts it. At leats not me.

If the orks need a nerf, and I am not saying they do, how do you fix it? Point increases to balance for cealings means that floors get really low.

Picture the following senario: Freeboters in speedwhaaag becomes the premiere way to play orks. GW responds by increasing points on all shooting units to the point where it becomes balanced for these lists. Would this not put the units out of reach for cassual players who are not running freeboters. Going from BS5 to 4 seems like such a huge gap. (Also, this works in melee as well, right? Hitting on 2's.)

Since there is to much attacking each other going on right now, I'll go back to the OP and answer.

First of all, do orks need a nerf? Probably. But not a big one and not for the reason most people here listed.

Right now, when you go through top placing lists, there is just one single theme. Spam squig buggies, scrap jets and planes and play whatever the heck you feel like for the rest of your army. From killrigs to burnas to lootas to random collections of other buggies, pretty much every somewhat decent ork unit has benn in a top 10 list somewhere. And it's not just freebootas. Despite goonhammer slapping the archetype "Freebootas" on every army list that has more than two buggies in it, many of them are actually running different clans - deff skulls, blood axes, evils suns and even some bad moons are doing great with the same units. And despite all that, there are still some people playing goff melee lists to top 10 finishes.
Goonhammer clearly don't have a veteran ork players among their writers and this is just one of many places where it shows. Especially for those not playing orks themselves, it's incredibly important to take everything they write and say about orks with a grain of salt.

So what to nerf?
Both from tournament results and personal experience, I think the squigbuggy is way too good when spammed. If you mathhammer a single one against any target of your choice, it just seems like a slightly above average units. However, in actual gameplay, it just solves too many problems at once. It excels at blowing up cheap scoring units, elite infantry, nothing can hide from it while it can hide out of sight, it has long range (for orks, anyways), good AP, it doesn't need join the traffic jam buggies tend to cause to be efficient and it's not a complete push-over in combat. In addition it also happens that its guns are most efficient against the current ringleaders' base stat lines. So in my opinion, that awesome package is totally worth 105 points.

The second cannidate is the scrapjet, despite being the best buggy of the old codex, it got a metric ton of buffs when moving to the new codex and still got cheaper. Slapping another 5 points for all those rokkit and big shoota shots (buffed by speedwaaagh nonetheless) won't break any of lists where people are just running a few of them, but will hurt for those spamming 9.

Last on my list would be the dakkajet. In friendly games I have to upgrade it with it's terrible kustom job just to make it more fair to play against. It's definitely a monster that can go anywhere on the board and just shred any infantry you want gone. The added utility of being able to deny alpha-charges does exist, but that's just one of the odd parts of 9th's rules, and I doubt you will find a huge amount of people wanting first turn charges to be easier. It's not like drukhari are lacking in tools to destroy planes in a single turn, so if someone decides to pick skew over TAC to maximize their chances of going to the top tables, they should be aware that a strategy like that can backfire.

My suggestion for the dakkajet would be to increase it by 15, while at the same time dropping the moar dakka kustom job for them down to 5/10 (dakkajets pay 10). This would leave a single dakkajet at a similar power level as it is now, while all further ones are less efficient. It also makes the very swingy kustom job an actual option instead of a dud. Raising it points by much more than 15 points doesn't really make sense, burna bommers would just take their place as without the +1 to hit there really isn't much difference between them anymore.

I wouldn't nerf Freebootas themselves at all. It's just the clan that currently fits the meta best, no more, no less. With plenty of cheap easy-to-kill units around, it's super easy to trigger the trait, but no one knows what happens when the nids, craftworld eldar, IG or knights get their codices. Once orks are regularly facing the challenge of having to blow up durable vehicles and monsters to trigger their trait, there is a good chance of Freebootas simply dropping off the competitive radar again, just like they did in 8th when you were almost guaranteed to face durable and expensive units. There is a reason why orks aren't doing to well against Death Guard, Custodes and Dark Angels Death Wing in tournaments.

People who aren't into orks too well will probably cry for more nerfs, but let's be real. Orks sit at 54-56% win rate depending on which sources you are looking at and there are a great number of people playing the faction, so it's not some freak accident like the two people randomly winning tournaments with Ynnari. According to goonhammer there also has been a similar growth in players that play the faction as there has been to other books like DG, TS, or admech. Therefore the data is very unlikely to be more or less skewed than those armies we compare them against.
With my proposed changes, the spam lists will take a hit of ~180 points which will likely not lead them to drop whole models, but they will likely try to keep a similar wound and model count. Instead, they will move to more varied lists that are slightly less lethal and inevitable. There are plenty of good options in the book which are currently just hidden behind the power of the squigbuggy.

It doesn't help that many of the AA units out there with multiple shots are S7 D2, which is just useless vs ramshackle etc.

The only reason Freeboota is even considered right now is because of all the spammed MSU squishy things.
Its not hard to wipe out 1 unit against admech/drukari. When we first got freeboota the meta was super tough units, so it was regarded as trash because it usually took most of your list to GET that kill in the first place unless you left something at 1-2 wounds left.
Freeboota favor will die out when the meta shifts back to elitist lists. Nerfing them wont do anything other than strip an option, as if theyre bad against MSU squishy stuff then theyre bad period.

Totally fine with the squigbuggy jumping 10-15pts. I keep finding myself wanting to field another squigbuggy instead of a scrapjet, even though their weapons are considerably different.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

I think you either need to remove the ability to squad buggies, or remove Ramshackle from Buggies and Aircraft.

Jarms48 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

I think you either need to remove the ability to squad buggies, or remove Ramshackle from Buggies and Aircraft.

All buggies are not created equal
No one really has a problem with kustom boosta blasta, boomdaka snazzwagon or shockjump dragsta
Also outside of the crazy 18 buggy spam list most competitive players aren’t using multiple models in a unit.
jack up squigbuggies and dakkajets 10-15 pts and scrapjets 5-10pts.
Then watch the meta shift a little with buggies like kustom boosta blasta return.

Jarms48 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

I think you either need to remove the ability to squad buggies, or remove Ramshackle from Buggies and Aircraft.

If I remember rightly the list that tabled the DE venom list just ran loads of single buggies, so squadrons aren't necessarily the problem. Realistically it makes them weaker as you run the risk of losing the entire unit to morale when you lose one of the three.

If GW were to change profiles about, I think the buggies losing a couple of wounds each to make them more fragile could be a way to go and just make them more glass-cannon skirmish units rather than effectively light tanks. The Squigbuggy could probably go to 24" on the heavy squig launcher to force it to put itself on offer a bit more as well.

But that's not going to happen really so if anything it will just be a points increase to 100/105 points apiece for the buggies and a similar increase to the Dakkajet. Maybe a change to the jets that they don't benefit from Competitive Streak or something.

It's difficult to balance this sort of thing, because you either do too little and there's basically no change, or you make it unusable.

"Problem" with the Freeboota trait is that it could be extremely powerful or not even triggered. Maybe GW could change it into "6s to hit score double hits", like Goffs in melee but applied to shooting instead.

That would make the trait much more useful in smaller games/detachments and would prevent a massive buff for entire armies benefitting from it.

A few units should go up in points as well. Dakkajets for example (and also both Bombers) I feel like they worth 150 points, even without Speedwaaagh and Freebooters, they'll be in line with most of the other planes across the codexes. An unbuffed dakkajet gets 12 hit at S6 AP-1 on average, on a superfast flying platform. Still very good but at least not auto spammable.

+30ppm may seem like a lot but a 120 points flyer that gets 12-21 hits at S6 AP-1/-2 on average is a really really cheap one, and even going 3x Dakkajets and 8-9 buggies (assuming +10/15 ppm for Scrapjets and Squigbuggies) we're talking about an overall raise of 200 points at most, which is basically one less flyer and one less buggy on current lists. On lists that don't really spam those three units such raises wouldn't have a significant impact.

 bullyboy wrote:
It doesn't help that many of the AA units out there with multiple shots are S7 D2, which is just useless vs ramshackle etc.

Which of those are actually useful against any other fliers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jarms48 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

I think you either need to remove the ability to squad buggies, or remove Ramshackle from Buggies and Aircraft.

What makes you think that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
"Problem" with the Freeboota trait is that it could be extremely powerful or not even triggered. Maybe GW could change it into "6s to hit score double hits", like Goffs in melee but applied to shooting instead.

That would make the trait much more useful in smaller games/detachments and would prevent a massive buff for entire armies benefitting from it.

A few units should go up in points as well. Dakkajets for example (and also both Bombers) I feel like they worth 150 points, even without Speedwaaagh and Freebooters, they'll be in line with most of the other planes across the codexes. An unbuffed dakkajet gets 12 hit at S6 AP-1 on average, on a superfast flying platform. Still very good but at least not auto spammable.

+30ppm may seem like a lot but a 120 points flyer that gets 12-21 hits at S6 AP-1/-2 on average is a really really cheap one, and even going 3x Dakkajets and 8-9 buggies (assuming +10/15 ppm for Scrapjets and Squigbuggies) we're talking about an overall raise of 200 points at most, which is basically one less flyer and one less buggy on current lists. On lists that don't really spam those three units such raises wouldn't have a significant impact.

`

A couple of things I disagree on
- Making dakka jets as good as planes in other codices means nerfing them out of the game. Almost no other codices are playing their planes because they cost too much.
- I don't think you need to consider balancing dakkajets without speedwaaagh because realistically they are totally going to have it during their first two turns. Their synergy with regular Waaagh lists is minimal anyways. Essentially they need to be balanced around throwing down 42 S6 AP-2 attacks that hit 14 times, because that is what they are realistically doing in the vast majority of games they are played in.
-150 points might be a bit too much, the bommers are already that price and get bombs on top of comparable firepower. It's also fairly specialized unit that just happens to be a perfect counter against the T3 models currently dominating the game. Killing 3 marines, a single terminator or dealing 3 damage to a vehicles at full capacity is nothing to write home about. Against armies like DG a dakkajet is pretty much useless.
- It is quite difficult to find comparable units that actually see play. Most high RoF units cost too much to see play unless they have additional benefits like the redemptor or the talonmaster.
- Orks are only slightly overperforming right now (in 8th 55% winrate was considered "balanced"), but hitting them with a 200 points nerf would be the same magnitude that the last drukhari nerf was. You would essentially just be killing the army for competitive play.

In any case, when looking at other armies for balance you have to take into account that the meta currently is completely warped by drukhari and admech, and the dakkajet-squigbuggy-freeboota combo is a symptom of that. You need to address the root cause first before trying to finetune an army that already is fairly close to being balanced.

The main reason for whacking those buggies in my oppinion is to improve list diversity for orks.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

OK, bring back the 24" restriction.

It'll change literally nothing. I'll fly a single dakkajet into the middle of the table, shoot one thing, and the whole board will have the buff.

the 24" range thing was just fiddly.

Fiddly, yes. I agree the rule is "better" now, but it still creates a problem. There should be some limitation there.

There is a limitation there. Until you destroy a unit, you have no subfaction trait. When the normal damage that a unit could output was roughly 25% of their value before using stratagems, you would have to either choose:

-do I burn my CP to get the initial unit kill, and use it less efficiently?

-do I wait to use my CP until after, in which case more of my units have attacked without a subfaction trait bonus?

Now that normal firepower is more like 50% value, you pick one unit, you pick one enemy unit worth roughly half as much, and you blow them away with a single shooting attack.

The people scratching their heads going "Hmmm what could possibly have changed here" are really quite amusing tbh.

I'lll give you a hint:

<.<

>.>

games workshop made everything in the codex do more damage for its cost. Like theyve done with most units in most 9e codexes.

GW made units useful. Squigbuggies were...not great.

One now kills two marines out of cover - a 44% conversion, which is good on it's own, but not obscene ( by my standard ) given the footprint.

Just freebooter is 63%
Just speedwaaagh is 57%
Both together are 79%

Freebooter is the bigger piece of the problem. The other part is no LOS weapons with no penalty.

This is further reinforced by tougher armies ( mostly big block Thousand Sons and DG ) being able to beat these Orks lists, because they don't have stuff to easily trigger freebooters.

Restricting freebooters and giving a light tap to buggies or giving no LOS some sort of penalty would rectify most of the Ork problem.

Nothing that shoots out of LoS has a penalty in 9th.
One of the many changes that makes no sense. Things shooting out of LoS should have their BS reduced by 1 (so it stacks at -2 to hit effectively)

This isnt just an ork thing.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nothing that shoots out of LoS has a penalty in 9th.
One of the many changes that makes no sense. Things shooting out of LoS should have their BS reduced by 1 (so it stacks at -2 to hit effectively)

This isnt just an ork thing.

It's probably my biggest pet peeve. I hated it with mortars in 8th and I hate it now.

But I feel like hitting Orks with a -1 to hit is overly punitive compared with other armies. I think anything getting hit when you don't have LOS should maybe pick up a +1 save stackable with cover. That will dent artillery in a more equitably...maybe.

 Blackie wrote:
"Problem" with the Freeboota trait is that it could be extremely powerful or not even triggered. Maybe GW could change it into "6s to hit score double hits", like Goffs in melee but applied to shooting instead.

That would be a straight up buff. Double hit on sixes is a massive 50% buff if you have a 5+ to hit. That would essentially be the same as before, but without the requirement to kill a unit to activate.

thats also literally the Badmoonz stratagem

Yeah. BS5+ with exploding 6's and BS4+ would be the same averadge. Except it would lead to some really swingy results. And would behave different under re-roll auraes.

(I just realised how ridicules SW are in assault doctrine. Hitting on 2+ with exploding 6's is like auto hitting essentually. More when you have re-roll to hit auras where you can fish for 6's.)

Honestly, I think if you wait, buggies will balance out a bit. If they’re doin work against drukhari/DE that leaves some room for other factions to creep in, more durable, more s8 ones that can do work against buggies.
The big problem with nerfing this stuff is that it’s pretty sensitive. Freebootas would really suck with any nerf, and buggies are only made excellent with them.
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

This perspective is shaped by the rules at present. The same way that buggies squeeze out most other ork units. Taking these things down a notch allows the rest of the book to breathe.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

This perspective is shaped by the rules at present. The same way that buggies squeeze out most other ork units. Taking these things down a notch allows the rest of the book to breathe.

I assure you friend, the rest of the book is kinda trash. Boyz are trash, walkers are trash, any infantry really outside of stormboyz and kommandos are trash. Weirdboys/Meks are godawful. Snaggas are alright I guess?? But they kind of struggle too. 9th ork dex was definitively designed to sell the buggies.

There's a whole range of good to ok that is way more nuanced than just using the pejorative lens of "trash".

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

This perspective is shaped by the rules at present. The same way that buggies squeeze out most other ork units. Taking these things down a notch allows the rest of the book to breathe.

There are a bunch of decent units that don’t see a lot of competitive play…but a lot of bad units… I mean is there a worse unit point for point than Gretchin? It’s a troop that not obj secured, and can’t gain any buffs or auras or army benefits. And it’s base state line is already worse then all other comparable units. And then they made it have worse morale and a 7+ save.

But here is the list of decent but not always competitive units.
All 5 buggies but you only see 2 (with snazzwagon being okay)
Warbikers, deffkoptas, stormboys, kommandos
Big Mek in mega armor, beastsnagga boyz, burnaboys, squigriders, nob on smasha squig
Dakkajet, wazbom, Mek guns, kannon wagon, Killrig
Zagstrukk deffdread meganobs and trukk are at best ok
Plus the following are good but only can take 1 per detachment:
Warboss on squig, mega warboss, warboss on bike, wartrike, mozgrod

That’s pretty much the only good to decent ork units but you only really see 2 buggies and dakkajets in freebooter talked about. All the klans are decent as well but are not seen as much since only the klans that benefit the best units are used… I mean bloodaxe is a pretty bad kultur but it’s seen as competitive because it is decent on buggies, but in comparison it’s pretty bad.

Let’s be honest GW isn’t going to do a major rules or detachment change in right now… we are looking at a chapter approved type point update first and buggies and aircraft will likely get a hike hopefully the nerf stroke isn’t to wide and ruin the other less useful buggies or take out units like kommandos, stormboys, warbikers just because buggy lists use them as fillers.

gungo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

This perspective is shaped by the rules at present. The same way that buggies squeeze out most other ork units. Taking these things down a notch allows the rest of the book to breathe.

There are a bunch of decent units that don’t see a lot of competitive play…but a lot of bad units… I mean is there a worse unit point for point than Gretchin? It’s a troop that not obj secured, and can’t gain any buffs or auras or army benefits. And it’s base state line is already worse then all other comparable units. And then they made it have worse morale and a 7+ save.

But here is the list of decent but not always competitive units.
All 5 buggies but you only see 2 (with snazzwagon being okay)
Warbikers, deffkoptas, stormboys, kommandos
Big Mek in mega armor, beastsnagga boyz, burnaboys, squigriders, nob on smasha squig
Dakkajet, wazbom, Mek guns, kannon wagon, Killrig
Zagstrukk deffdread meganobs and trukk are at best ok
Plus the following are good but only can take 1 per detachment:
Warboss on squig, mega warboss, warboss on bike, wartrike, mozgrod

That’s pretty much the only good to decent ork units but you only really see 2 buggies and dakkajets in freebooter talked about. All the klans are decent as well but are not seen as much since only the klans that benefit the best units are used… I mean bloodaxe is a pretty bad kultur but it’s seen as competitive because it is decent on buggies, but in comparison it’s pretty bad.

Let’s be honest GW isn’t going to do a major rules or detachment change in right now… we are looking at a chapter approved type point update first and buggies and aircraft will likely get a hike hopefully the nerf stroke isn’t to wide and ruin the other less useful buggies or take out units like kommandos, stormboys, warbikers just because buggy lists use them as fillers.

Well said. Thread is over now

gungo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

This perspective is shaped by the rules at present. The same way that buggies squeeze out most other ork units. Taking these things down a notch allows the rest of the book to breathe.

There are a bunch of decent units that don’t see a lot of competitive play…but a lot of bad units… I mean is there a worse unit point for point than Gretchin? It’s a troop that not obj secured, and can’t gain any buffs or auras or army benefits. And it’s base state line is already worse then all other comparable units. And then they made it have worse morale and a 7+ save.

But here is the list of decent but not always competitive units.
All 5 buggies but you only see 2 (with snazzwagon being okay)
Warbikers, deffkoptas, stormboys, kommandos
Big Mek in mega armor, beastsnagga boyz, burnaboys, squigriders, nob on smasha squig
Dakkajet, wazbom, Mek guns, kannon wagon, Killrig
Zagstrukk deffdread meganobs and trukk are at best ok
Plus the following are good but only can take 1 per detachment:
Warboss on squig, mega warboss, warboss on bike, wartrike, mozgrod

That’s pretty much the only good to decent ork units but you only really see 2 buggies and dakkajets in freebooter talked about. All the klans are decent as well but are not seen as much since only the klans that benefit the best units are used… I mean bloodaxe is a pretty bad kultur but it’s seen as competitive because it is decent on buggies, but in comparison it’s pretty bad.

Let’s be honest GW isn’t going to do a major rules or detachment change in right now… we are looking at a chapter approved type point update first and buggies and aircraft will likely get a hike hopefully the nerf stroke isn’t to wide and ruin the other less useful buggies or take out units like kommandos, stormboys, warbikers just because buggy lists use them as fillers.

Well...you just listed 28 units there.

I highly doubt bikes, stormboyz and kommandos get whacked. If anything boyz will take a 1 point drop and buggies/planes go up a bit.

Though I doubt GW has Ork changes in an official CA if it's coming in a few weeks. It will have to be an FAQ on the CA.

That happens in any army. Theres several units that 'work' but theres 1-2 that are clearly better.

Deffdreads vs Buggies for instance.

Dreads w/ pure melee are the only thing they do better than buggies, but only if they can actually reach something (usually cant). Any other loadout youre better off with a buggy, both because its cheaper // possibly hits more reliably // faster
Dreads are T7 but it ultimately doesnt mean much. They tend to eat the S8 guns, which 1-2 shot them.

You can run dreads and probably do just fine but when you get to those upper levels of tournament play the slightly less efficient unit is gonna show more and more.

This problem will happen in any game that doesnt impose strict list-building limitations forcing you to take different things because you cant spam the obvious better one (either literally or some odd mechanic gets in the way as a MAJOR drawback if you spam)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

This perspective is shaped by the rules at present. The same way that buggies squeeze out most other ork units. Taking these things down a notch allows the rest of the book to breathe.

There are a bunch of decent units that don’t see a lot of competitive play…but a lot of bad units… I mean is there a worse unit point for point than Gretchin? It’s a troop that not obj secured, and can’t gain any buffs or auras or army benefits. And it’s base state line is already worse then all other comparable units. And then they made it have worse morale and a 7+ save.

But here is the list of decent but not always competitive units.
All 5 buggies but you only see 2 (with snazzwagon being okay)
Warbikers, deffkoptas, stormboys, kommandos
Big Mek in mega armor, beastsnagga boyz, burnaboys, squigriders, nob on smasha squig
Dakkajet, wazbom, Mek guns, kannon wagon, Killrig
Zagstrukk deffdread meganobs and trukk are at best ok
Plus the following are good but only can take 1 per detachment:
Warboss on squig, mega warboss, warboss on bike, wartrike, mozgrod

That’s pretty much the only good to decent ork units but you only really see 2 buggies and dakkajets in freebooter talked about. All the klans are decent as well but are not seen as much since only the klans that benefit the best units are used… I mean bloodaxe is a pretty bad kultur but it’s seen as competitive because it is decent on buggies, but in comparison it’s pretty bad.

Let’s be honest GW isn’t going to do a major rules or detachment change in right now… we are looking at a chapter approved type point update first and buggies and aircraft will likely get a hike hopefully the nerf stroke isn’t to wide and ruin the other less useful buggies or take out units like kommandos, stormboys, warbikers just because buggy lists use them as fillers.

Well...you just listed 28 units there.

I highly doubt bikes, stormboyz and kommandos get whacked. If anything boyz will take a 1 point drop and buggies/planes go up a bit.

Though I doubt GW has Ork changes in an official CA if it's coming in a few weeks. It will have to be an FAQ on the CA.

I mean there are 61 datasheets in the ork codex (some of the ones I listed were also FW units) so ya less then half of them are playable. I didn’t say these were all competitive in fact i specifically said some were ok at best. But what’s left out of that list is mostly bad to awful.

There was rumors of a point hike on buggies and dakkajets over a month ago… I think it’s already in the CA which doesn’t sound like it’s being released until next year at this rate. But mainly my point was people asking for detachment changes or big updates to army rules is unlikely to happen for a bit.

Well, not competitive is not the same as not playable at all. Grey knights have a codex with so much fewer unit options. Their competitive main units is basically interceptors and dread knights. But it doesn't mean the other units can't be played.

 Jidmah wrote:

- Orks are only slightly overperforming right now (in 8th 55% winrate was considered "balanced"), but hitting them with a 200 points nerf would be the same magnitude that the last drukhari nerf was. You would essentially just be killing the army for competitive play.

The main reason for whacking those buggies in my oppinion is to improve list diversity for orks.

Same opinion. Of course points hike should come along points drops for some other stuff. Nauts, lootas, flash gitz, kanz, big mek with SAG... come to mind.

Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
"Problem" with the Freeboota trait is that it could be extremely powerful or not even triggered. Maybe GW could change it into "6s to hit score double hits", like Goffs in melee but applied to shooting instead.

That would be a straight up buff. Double hit on sixes is a massive 50% buff if you have a 5+ to hit. That would essentially be the same as before, but without the requirement to kill a unit to activate.

Average should be slightly inferior on units with high RoF, which are the most common on in full freeboota armies. Also very swingy on units with low RoF, for which a flat +1 to hit would be much more reliable.

But I don't really think the trait should be nerfed, just re-shaped; in fact I think it should be buffed in order to make it count also for smaller detachments but in a way that large freeboota detachments don't get any significant improvements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

I mean there are 61 datasheets in the ork codex (some of the ones I listed were also FW units) so ya less then half of them are playable. I didn’t say these were all competitive in fact i specifically said some were ok at best. But what’s left out of that list is mostly bad to awful.

Not true, most of the stuff you didn't list is definitely playable. Nobz, battlewagon, bonebreaker, warboss on foot, weirdboy, grotsnik, snikrot, boyz, gretchins, kill tank. Even lootas, tankbustas, kanz and nauts aren't that terrible. They're all decent but not always competitive units. The units you listed are the tournament level ones.

 Blackie wrote:
Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.

The last nerf dropped their win rates by about 10%, they were just so insanely over the top that they are still dominating. Dropping orks by they same amount would just ruin them.

Once again, orks are NOT in the same league as admech or drukhari - many people just have an irrationally large hatred for losing against orks for some reason as they are still the joke army that is always supposed to lose in many people's minds.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.

The last nerf dropped their win rates by about 10%, they were just so insanely over the top that they are still dominating. Dropping orks by they same amount would just ruin them.

Once again, orks are NOT in the same league as admech or drukhari - many people just have an irrationally large hatred for losing against orks for some reason as they are still the joke army that is always supposed to lose in many people's minds.

I think we are soon to see an irrational hatred for Nids, those buffed up hive guards are pure cancer. I don't really know if sguig buggies are worse offenders or not, but current nid lists dunk on freebooter lists with ease, even going second (if hive guards have the ignore ap 1 and 2, which they should always have).

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

- Orks are only slightly overperforming right now (in 8th 55% winrate was considered "balanced"), but hitting them with a 200 points nerf would be the same magnitude that the last drukhari nerf was. You would essentially just be killing the army for competitive play.

The main reason for whacking those buggies in my oppinion is to improve list diversity for orks.

Same opinion. Of course points hike should come along points drops for some other stuff. Nauts, lootas, flash gitz, kanz, big mek with SAG... come to mind.

Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
"Problem" with the Freeboota trait is that it could be extremely powerful or not even triggered. Maybe GW could change it into "6s to hit score double hits", like Goffs in melee but applied to shooting instead.

That would be a straight up buff. Double hit on sixes is a massive 50% buff if you have a 5+ to hit. That would essentially be the same as before, but without the requirement to kill a unit to activate.

Average should be slightly inferior on units with high RoF, which are the most common on in full freeboota armies. Also very swingy on units with low RoF, for which a flat +1 to hit would be much more reliable.

But I don't really think the trait should be nerfed, just re-shaped; in fact I think it should be buffed in order to make it count also for smaller detachments but in a way that large freeboota detachments don't get any significant improvements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

I mean there are 61 datasheets in the ork codex (some of the ones I listed were also FW units) so ya less then half of them are playable. I didn’t say these were all competitive in fact i specifically said some were ok at best. But what’s left out of that list is mostly bad to awful.

Not true, most of the stuff you didn't list is definitely playable. Nobz, battlewagon, bonebreaker, warboss on foot, weirdboy, grotsnik, snikrot, boyz, gretchins, kill tank. Even lootas, tankbustas, kanz and nauts aren't that terrible. They're all decent but not always competitive units. The units you listed are the tournament level ones.

Your mind is definitely warped from the ork codex… you literally listed Gretchin
I mean take a look at every other 5pt per model unit in any dex…
It is by far the worst. It’s a troop unit without obj secured (wtf), that specifically can’t benefit from any klan/regiment buffs… they even made it worse then it was last codex.. and the only reason people take Gretchin is boys are worse…. Lol it is still a bad unit regardless if people are forced to take troops… I mean the bone breaker is a worse version of the battlewagon with deffrolla…... nauts are almost completely unplayable under LOW…..we can go on… but the bottom line is just because you can play a bad unit doesn’t make it a good unit.

(The killtank is good for its points I forgot it because I don’t play it)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 addnid wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.

The last nerf dropped their win rates by about 10%, they were just so insanely over the top that they are still dominating. Dropping orks by they same amount would just ruin them.

Once again, orks are NOT in the same league as admech or drukhari - many people just have an irrationally large hatred for losing against orks for some reason as they are still the joke army that is always supposed to lose in many people's minds.

I think we are soon to see an irrational hatred for Nids, those buffed up hive guards are pure cancer. I don't really know if sguig buggies are worse offenders or not, but current nid lists dunk on freebooter lists with ease, even going second (if hive guards have the ignore ap 1 and 2, which they should always have).

I wouldby mind seeing strong bug lists they are a fun army… also snaggas love to kill monster units…..

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.

The last nerf dropped their win rates by about 10%, they were just so insanely over the top that they are still dominating. Dropping orks by they same amount would just ruin them.

Once again, orks are NOT in the same league as admech or drukhari - many people just have an irrationally large hatred for losing against orks for some reason as they are still the joke army that is always supposed to lose in many people's minds.

thinking back, i'd have to agree that people have this weird issue with losing to orks.

Majority of the games i can recall in the past that werent by a hair victories my opponent complained about something in the ork list being OP....even in 7th edition in the like 3-4 games i actually won because the army was so dang bad lol.
Also i love the complaint that "Orks are supposed to be melee! You're supposed to charge forward not shoot things!" so...you want me to be a 1trick pony you can predict...got it... orks have always been a sorta half-n-half army and when you butcher their most common source of melee in the latest edition no duh they shift to a nearly full shooty army.

The only thing more reliable then orks being a skew meta army that people complain about is the overhanded nerfs to those units even if they aren’t great but a skew to the current meta…
When nob bikers were strong they hammered that out for like 3 editions of worthless.
When boy greentide was strong… they beat them out..
When lootas were good they nerfed them 3x in a row.
When Gretchin was good mostly because of Grot shields they nuked them.
SSAG making some rankings let’s basically remove that option…
Deathskulls preferred let’s fix that…
Why do people use tankbustas so much… let’s get rid of that so you play something else
The majority of the above weren’t actually winning a lot of tournaments like the current buggies…but still got nuked..

I mean Mek guns overall survived an edition with major changes and still being good so that was a surprise…
That brings us to the current strong unit in the ork codex buggies.
I hope you guys weren’t expecting to use these for long.

I’ve played orks so long now that just to build a strong (not necessarily tournament winning army) my collection consists of:
100x ork boys
12+ warbikers (and I still need to get more)
7 buggies (again still short of current preferred lists)
26 kommandos (mostly cause killteam box gave me 10x)
15 tabkbustas
15 lootas
20 stormboys
6 Mek guns
4 trukks
3 magnetized airplanes
6 killakans
3 deff dreads
And currently 6x deffkoptas but I plan to pick up the start collecting some point..
This doesn’t include the beast snagga stuff I haven’t painted yet and some not built..
I try not to overbuy or spam stuff to much but the ork codex tends to take major swings at units from good to bad and sometimes back to good again.

So when I say I expect all buggies not just squigbuggy to get brutally nerfed.. I speak from experience. There is no slight tweaks w orks. They will drastically increase points, nerf ramshackle from -1 dam to +1 sv, and for good measure limit unit size to 1. Maybe change freebooter to +1 hit to melee only since that’s a reoccurring theme for the ork codex…raise points on stormboys, kommandos, warbikers, all airplanes and say GG see you in 3 yes at 10ed.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.

The last nerf dropped their win rates by about 10%, they were just so insanely over the top that they are still dominating. Dropping orks by they same amount would just ruin them.

Once again, orks are NOT in the same league as admech or drukhari - many people just have an irrationally large hatred for losing against orks for some reason as they are still the joke army that is always supposed to lose in many people's minds.

thinking back, i'd have to agree that people have this weird issue with losing to orks.

Majority of the games i can recall in the past that werent by a hair victories my opponent complained about something in the ork list being OP....even in 7th edition in the like 3-4 games i actually won because the army was so dang bad lol.
Also i love the complaint that "Orks are supposed to be melee! You're supposed to charge forward not shoot things!" so...you want me to be a 1trick pony you can predict...got it... orks have always been a sorta half-n-half army and when you butcher their most common source of melee in the latest edition no duh they shift to a nearly full shooty army.

Ironically, the wider community response to Ork success kind of matches with the fluff in-universe too. A lot of times Orks are successful in their wars against the other races because they underestimate them by viewing Orks as a backwater, barbaric species and allow them to build up to a full-scale WAAAGH! that overwhelms them. In a similar way, non-Ork players see Orks as an army you play for the memes and don't understand how it requires a lot of nuance and understanding to play them unlike beginner friendly or braindead point and click FoTM armies, so when they come across a skew list that counters their kind of army, they throw a hissy fit because it doesn't fit their narrative of an easy win. It's bizarre how often they're surprised by Ork shooting when Orks were the ones bringing up all the stuff about dakka. I think it's a matter of people drinking some of the codex faction fluff kool aid a little too much. Though I find it funny that despite being a dying race, whenever people play Eldar they never complain about being too durable back when they were broken as a faction.

People also don’t like orks being meta because you can’t just buy in
People just don’t like horde armies being meta in general, elites are always preferred it seems.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
People also don’t like orks being meta because you can’t just buy in
People just don’t like horde armies being meta in general, elites are always preferred it seems.

Funny part about that is orks arent really much of a horde army right now. We have no reason to run big blobs and boyz are limited in what they can do anyway.
That being said though suddenly i feel compelled to run a Brigade and field 120 boyz in 10man squads lol..... just to mess with people

Well there's the knee jerk adjustment we were all expecting and some of you thought was appropriate. While obviously the intent and end result curtails sratoraptors a bit as well, this balance update was so painfully obviously targeting a specific list that has barely gotten off the ground.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
People also don’t like orks being meta because you can’t just buy in
People just don’t like horde armies being meta in general, elites are always preferred it seems.

Funny part about that is orks arent really much of a horde army right now. We have no reason to run big blobs and boyz are limited in what they can do anyway.
That being said though suddenly i feel compelled to run a Brigade and field 120 boyz in 10man squads lol..... just to mess with people

Yeah, I’ve tried boyz, it’s terrible. I’m more talking the “horde armies” because we’re sort of running a mechanized tide, same way guard armored companies do.

Boom, buggies are dead.

 Jidmah wrote:
Boom, buggies are dead.

Buggies or the Orks?

Overreaction (to be expected), but buggies are not "dead", they just won't be the ork default from now on. Might not be the best fix GW could have done, but a fix was needed and now players will need to squadron up or just add some other units to the mix.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Boom, buggies are dead.

Buggies or the Orks?

Since the Aircrafts nerf is also affecting AD Mech and they and Dark Eldars also got points changed, we'll see.

.

Selfcontrol wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Boom, buggies are dead.

Buggies or the Orks?

Since the Aircrafts nerf is also affecting AD Mech and they and Dark Eldars also got points changed, we'll see.

The points change was the early release for CA…
Oh wait you thought this was over for orks?
I assure you expect plenty of point hikes as well or orks in CA!
Orks aren’t done being beaten down yet more is yet to come!!!
There was already rumors from playtesters that planes and buggies were seeing a points hike so expect that at the least…

This is simply a knee jerk reaction from orks winning 2 weeks ago… because 6 months of ad mech dominance they took it slow. But after 1 ork win they did an emergency update a month before CA is released?
And yet it’s a poor fix since it does little to stop buggy spam lists.. people will still spam 6-12 buggies competitively and 2 jets. It just makes all those kustom jobs they created mostly useless for ork buggies.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Boom, buggies are dead.

Buggies or the Orks?

The buggies spam archetype. There is plenty of good stuff left, and it's not like bringing 3 squigbuggies suddenly is a terrible idea.

 bullyboy wrote:
Overreaction (to be expected), but buggies are not "dead", they just won't be the ork default from now on. Might not be the best fix GW could have done, but a fix was needed and now players will need to squadron up or just add some other units to the mix.

This does nothing but prevent mannys 18x buggy list which was already out of the meta.. the socal list was warbikers, 3 scrap, 3 squig, 1 kbb, 1 shokkjump and 4 planes (now 2).

Speed mob will be taking over that spot competitively. I’m only disappointed to lose nitro squigs and other kustom jobs people used when they had a few extra points to spend on lists.

At least until we get hit again with the nerf bat next month which is going to happen… don’t fool yourself in thinking this is it. The CA book is already printed with our nerfs they just didn’t early release it with DE and admech since they want you to pay for those nerfs…. Considering admech and De got a 10-15% point hike o expect the same for buggies and planes kommandos and stormboys.

gungo wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Overreaction (to be expected), but buggies are not "dead", they just won't be the ork default from now on. Might not be the best fix GW could have done, but a fix was needed and now players will need to squadron up or just add some other units to the mix.

This does nothing but prevent mannys 18x buggy list which was already out of the meta.. the socal list was warbikers, 3 scrap, 3 squig, 1 kbb, 1 shokkjump and 4 planes (now 2).

Speed mob will be taking over that spot competitively. I’m only disappointed to lose nitro squigs and other kustom jobs people used when they had a few extra points to spend on lists.

At least until we get hit again with the nerf bat next month which is going to happen… don’t fool yourself in thinking this is it. The CA book is already printed with our nerfs they just didn’t early release it with DE and admech since they want you to pay for those nerfs…. Considering admech and De got a 10-15% point hike o expect the same for buggies and planes kommandos and stormboys.

Considering the need to translate and print with CA and that DE and Admech had their points listed but Orks didn't there is a non 0% chance that CA actually won't touch Orks much, if at all.

That's the problem with CA being a physical book, it reacts to what existed 6 months ago.

Eh, you can still spam buggies. But now that spam has some variety in it as you take different types of buggies. You can still take well over 1500pts of just them if you desired.

cody.d. wrote:
Eh, you can still spam buggies. But now that spam has some variety in it as you take different types of buggies. You can still take well over 1500pts of just them if you desired.

Spamming 3 of each buggy is not really an option because
a) depending on the footprint of the rest of your army, you might be unable to deploy them on many boards.
b) even if you can deploy them, most of them will not be able to leave your deployment zone for the first two turns. The game tends to be decided by the time they do.
c) almost all buggies besides the squigbuggy need to leave your deployment zone to do anything.
d) taking SJD in squadrons is sub-optimal because you cannot deep strike three buggy bases in coherency anywhere worthwhile.

Essentially the whole buggy spam thing only worked only because squigbuggies could shoot 36" without LoS and the 9 scrapjets were the maximum of buggies you could realistically hope to get anywhere on the board.

I assume that people will shift to other options to replace the missing buggies now. Kill rigs, for example.