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Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 01:47:57


Post by: Ahtman


A friend and I were looking over the design of the Enterprise for the JJ Abrams Star Trek films and that got me to thinking about all the problems in the films (portable transporters that can send you across galaxies, firing weapons in warp, ect) and how it has affected the fanbase as well as the future of any films within the Star Trek franchise. Not long after I saw a review of the new Star Trek animated series Prodigy and they essentially said it was Star Trek: Star Wars and opined about the nature of what makes Trek Trek. We also had the recent thread about what James Bond is, or should be so it seemed appropriate to maybe look at the current state of Trek, at least in regards to film.

So what is the future of Star Trek in film, if any, or what should it be?




Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 02:13:52


Post by: Voss


Eh. I'm for letting it rest.

Less Star Trek, more Seaquest (stupid time-jumps aside). As in, more stories about actually solving the problems of the near future than stories about a magically erected utopia 'out there' (and then burning it down and pissing on the ashes because the writers are sad about contemporary politics).


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 02:21:47


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I’d like it to be an optimistic series, where humanity (and other beings) have mostly solved their basic problems and mostly get along. I’d like the crew to be professional and likeable, and keep interpersonal drama to …if not a minimum, at least a level that won’t remind me of my coworkers and the crap I am trying to escape by watching Star Trek. I’d like the focus to be on exploration, intern and external as in the best of TNG and DS9. I want at least TNG-era levels of consistency.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 02:31:46


Post by: LordofHats


The thing I've kind of settled on that really separates old Star Trek from new Star Trek is the sense of optimism has been cut from the franchise.

Star Trek is a optimistic vision of a humanity that has achieved some sense of utopia in its own time. They still have problems and there are still trials and flaws in the hearts of the characters and the world around them, but their prevailing attitude is that these struggles can be overcome. The classic era of Star Trek (TOS to lets say Voyager) did various plays on this premise and the places such people might go the situations they might encounter, but there was always this optimistic tone to the shows. Even during the darkest moments like the Dominion War and first contact with the Borg, that the future could be a better place with better people at least trying to solve their problems in better ways.

This really came home for me when I tried watching Picard and couldn't. It's not that dark Star Trek can't be done, but Picard wasn't dark Star Trek. It was just this edgy and gritty action banaza and I'm going to set aside any other criticisms I have of it (and Discovery's) writing too focus just on the thing that I think they're lacking.

They're not optimistic about the future. In newer Star Trek shows, the future is just as bleak, frightening, and chaotic as the present. The Federation is not an enlightened utopia striving to be better even when it stumbles, it's just as fethed up as anywhere else and paradise is a lie.

And that's not Star Trek.

The big exception is Lower Decks, which I've caved in a watched and I very much like. It's not an A+ series. It relies too much on in-jokes and references IMO, but it does have that optimism and enthusiasm for the possibilities of the future Discovery and Picard are too busy being edgy and 'serious' to bother with. I particularly enjoy the characters of Tendi and Boimler, who feel like they're living the life that every Star Trek fan would like to live, exploring the stars, developing themselves, and embracing the awe of what they're doing and where they are with the utmost enthusiasm. That's Star Trek to me.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 09:35:27


Post by: AduroT


I don’t want to judge Prodigy too quickly off just the first episode. We’ve barely seen anything of the Federation yet. You don’t see a single actual Human during the first episode even. They use the fact it’s animated to go more creative with the alien species and such. That and the CG style really lends it to that Star Trek: Star Wars Edition comparison because it really does look like a Rebels kind of deal. I think it’s gonna end up more optimistic than other recents with its aim towards younger audiences.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 10:02:30


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Ahtman wrote:
So what is the future of Star Trek in film, if any, or what should it be?
Going off of Star Trek Discovery, the future of Star Trek is Michael Burnham solving all of Trek's problems forever (with special cameo appearances by the rest of the crew, who occasionally show up to tell her how awesome she is).


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 10:25:01


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’m ok with Picard, as it’s post-Dominion War. That of course was an event which changed the Alpha Quadrant. The Federation got involved in an actual full-on war, producing ships explicitly for that purpose. It also has the dubious pleasure of picking up where JJ left off, with the destruction of Romulus.

Those events are reflected in a somewhat more cynical Starfleet high command. That I quite like, as it echos Sisko’s quote of “it’s easy to be a Saint in Paradise”.

I quite enjoyed the first season, but get that it’s a bit shaky. I’m intrigued to see where the second season goes. We might see Picard further as a man out of his time. That’s kind of appropriate if you ask me. Picard’s Starfleet was somewhat different to Kirk’s Starfleet. Less swashbuckling, more diplomacy and compromises. Had either been born into the other’s time, neither might’ve reached Captain or Admiral.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 11:17:38


Post by: Overread


Picard was also slowed because Picard as a character has to rediscover himself. He tries the whole "powerful speech" and gets shut down.

Because now he's an old man who left Starfleet 10 years ago. He's lost allies he had; he never played the political game enough to build lots of them behind him. Basically he went from Admiral to nothing and can't just get back to Admiral again in a flash.


I enjoyed it and I do think its a good take after the events of DS9 and the destruction of Romulus. It's a not so much removing the Star Trek as it is taking a look at the underside. The world where Gharrak lives; where gun runners and drugs and dark things happen. Things that we saw in regular Trek, but which were often resolved within a single episode. It's playing that approach out for longer.







I do agree a lot of the more modern Treks have lost a sense of exploration and of optimism. I think they've gone for a very (what I'd consider american) approach to sci-fi of "guns and lasers and fighting and cool stuff". Ironically I think the most Trek Trek we've had in the last few years is Below Decks - and that's after I felt the first season was a bit preachy with some of its episode puns and also machine-gunned jokes at you somewhat too heavily - second season is more settled.

I think the other thing is that in most of the old Treks they didn't have a huge special effects budget and stuff cost money - so they made up for that with more diplomacy and talking and mature thinking things through. Even the action sequences often had to account for the fact that in a battle they might only make a handful of shots on both sides. When you've got 3 shots with your main gun you've got to be careful and smart in how you use it.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 12:21:58


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


TOS and TNG were also fairly straight forward morality Plays Of The Week, where the pros and cons are weighed up on the scales of interfering as little as possible. The new shows, well….Disco, don’t really have that feel.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 12:22:25


Post by: Da Boss


There is very little sci fi that is written by people who are interested in or believe in the transfornative power of science for good. Every sci fi show is written by people who are afraid of science and feel pessimistic about what it will bring. I want one show where scientists and engineers solve problems and there is an optimism about the future, and goodwill and ethical values are the norm rather than the exception. If I want to watch a sci fi dystopia I have a million examples to choose from, mostly written by people with a very poor science education.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 13:03:21


Post by: gorgon


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
TOS and TNG were also fairly straight forward morality Plays Of The Week, where the pros and cons are weighed up on the scales of interfering as little as possible. The new shows, well….Disco, don’t really have that feel.


Pretty sure Hollywood believes that there isn't much new ground to cover there after how many episodes of ST series based on that template (which probably describes TNG more than TOS). And I tend to agree. Especially in the context of a future where there are no real societal problems anymore and everyone on the ship gets along in a happy, productive manner all the time. Conflict is what drives narratives, and that's why newer ST shows and movies are adding more of it.

I get that there's a good chunk of Trek fans who find comfort and affirmation in seeing the same character archetypes, same setting, same plots, same formula, etc. over and over again. But that doesn't get NEW eyeballs, which is what you need to pay for big-budget feature films.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 13:09:40


Post by: Albertorius


 gorgon wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
TOS and TNG were also fairly straight forward morality Plays Of The Week, where the pros and cons are weighed up on the scales of interfering as little as possible. The new shows, well….Disco, don’t really have that feel.


Pretty sure Hollywood believes that there isn't much new ground to cover there after how many episodes of ST series based on that template (which probably describes TNG more than TOS). And I tend to agree. Especially in the context of a future where there are no real societal problems anymore and everyone on the ship gets along in a happy, productive manner all the time. Conflict is what drives narratives, and that's why newer ST shows and movies are adding more of it.


Actually, Hollywood is SO risk averse that they'd much rather remake once again a movie people liked (reboot, sequel, whatever) than doing anything even remotely risky it's not even funny.

Also, I don't think any of the new Trek is actually from Hollywood, right? What with them being series and everything.

Personally, the Trek I've enjoyed the most in years has been Lower Decks, it's very clearly made out of love. And the Orville, which is Trek in everything but name.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 13:16:54


Post by: Mr Morden


Probably in lots of directions.....

We have

Star Trek: Burnham where nothing and no-one matters except the central character who everyone loves....ughh its awful
Star Trek Picard - not bad and some good stuff - even with a terrible last episode - could get some exploration and other older elements of the shows as well as the darker elements of DS9 - but I think Lord of Hats is right when it does need to have some hope- not just dark for the sake of being dark. Hopefully when Q is in it - it has some more humour.

Then again the Expanse does sci-fi much better these days....


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 20:07:21


Post by: Aash


I’m not particularly keen on the latest iteration of star trek, but then I think the best Star Trek film since Wrath of Khan is Galaxy Quest and the best Star Trek series since DS9 is The Orville.

I think the JJ Abrams star trek film series really missed a trick. Instead I’d a soft reboot/alternate timeline, they should have gone the whole hog and done a complete reimagining. Likewise with the current TV shows.

What I’d like is to have the adventures of Kirk, Spock and Bones in the 23rd century but without any of the baggage of the last 60 years of continuity.

Given that star trek ties itself in knots trying to justify things like the eugenics wars of the 1990s which didn’t happen IRL or the explanations for the change to how Klingons look between TOS and TNG, a clean slate but using the same premise and updated versions of the setting and character, preserving the idea of an optimistic future would be something I’d be interested in seeing.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 20:45:54


Post by: Pyroalchi


While I unfortunatly haven't seen Picard or Lower Decks yet, I also enjoyed Star Trek a lot when it was a bit more optimistic. In part because it made the more ambivalent or dark episodes more memorable for me at least (in pale moonlight from DS9 for example or the one in Voyager with the Equinox)

One thing I would find interesting as setting (it's just an idea and of course you can feel free to find it dumb): After several series on ships and one on a station, I would find it interesting to have a series (maybe just a mini series) set on a planet. On the one hand one could say after exploring ships and a frontline station a planet in the backlines, so right within Federation territory would be something drastically different, but I doubt that would give enough food for stories, so instead I would take a shot at the planets that suddenly got put into the neutral zone after the peace treaty with the Cardassians or Romulans. Basically you have a Federation settled world that from one day to the next isn't really Federation any more, but also not Romulan/Cardassian but... something in between? Suddenly it becomes interesting for other settlers/people looking for a refuge. You could bring in Ferengis (in their DS9 iteration, not the early TNG crap) playing a significant role, etc. also a nice opportunity to have a cast with less human dominance if one so desires. You could have another power (say Klingons) suddenly starting settlements on the neighboring planet (or another continent on the same planet) opening up place for conflict or cooperation. One could picture diplomacy and secret service stuff happening around the question "do we want to support the federation/Cardassians/Romulans? Or do we want to stay neutral?" And you could still give all that an optimistic touch, just instead of "lets explore the galaxy and solve its problems" a "lets make this place our home." vibe.

But as I said: it's just an idea based on gut feeling. No idea if such a series would work


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/03 20:53:38


Post by: tauist


To me, proper Star Trek is the kind of stuff your gf can also watch without becoming bored. Picard and Discovery are trying too hard to be Star Wars. Orville has the right idea. Lower decks was meh, smells too much like dialed down Rick & Morty

IMHO Star Trek is about adventure/mystery and not about EPEEK WAR IN SPACE. Proper Trek is also slightly cheesy and campy, it gives it a more soft/humane feeling.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/04 10:19:43


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Apologies to the mods if this crosses the No Politics line, but I feel it needs to be said and will be as OT as I can.

The other aspect of classic Trek is holding up a mirror to our current society. And not always subtlety. And the mirror was of course of an advanced, peaceful society, reflecting not only on how far they’d come, but also how they got there to some degree.

That’s….not really something I get from Disco. Picard is showing glimmerings of that, but again to keep this as OT as possible I won’t give my opinion further as to what those glimmerings are.

Without that? Is it really Trek, or just otherwise fairly enjoyable SciFi?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/04 15:11:59


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Picard will be taking on Nazis next season, so that's completely relevant.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/04 15:23:23


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Nope. You can’t bait me that easily.

It at least needs a photo of a lovely pint of bitter!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/04 15:54:19


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


The only way I can stomach Picard is through the Rich Evans filter…and he apparently quit.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/04 16:07:21


Post by: Ahtman


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Picard will be taking on Nazis next season, so that's completely relevant.



I thought it was prohibition era gangsters.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/05 01:45:18


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 Overread wrote:


I do agree a lot of the more modern Treks have lost a sense of exploration and of optimism. I think they've gone for a very (what I'd consider american) approach to sci-fi of "guns and lasers and fighting and cool stuff".



This is just IMHO, but I think that the most modern Trek series (aside from Lower Decks) is much more toned down with the hope. Like, I personally see it in many of the episodes and characters, but it's not so nauseatingly in your face hopeful as some of the past treks. Don't get me wrong, I think that the hopeful elements of Trek are one of the biggest keys to the whole thing working, but at times I felt myself being pulled from my suspension of disbelief in old series' because of how deep fried hopeful they were. And that certainly has a way of getting certain crowds in, and, I'm sure in part that is why I didn't enjoy DS9 the first go round: I wasn't old enough to have experienced the harshness of life, so I didn't "get" some of the hopelessness showcased in some of the darker episodes.


One thing I am kind of looking forward to is the new series with Anson Mount as Pike on his own, as IIRC, some of the show runners for that have said there will be a return to the "wagon train to the stars" format.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/05 05:32:34


Post by: BlackoCatto


Feth new Trek.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/05 05:46:03


Post by: Ahtman


 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
One thing I am kind of looking forward to is the new series with Anson Mount as Pike on his own, as IIRC, some of the show runners for that have said there will be a return to the "wagon train to the stars" format.


Strange New Worlds and they have said it should be back to basics and will be more individual stories with less focus on an over aching seasonal story. Considering it is the same people involved behind the scenes as some of the others listed here I am not holding my breath. On the other hand Pike was one of the better things in STD so there is a chance.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/05 08:08:33


Post by: Albertorius


Just watched the first eps of Prodigy.

It... looks pretty? Doesn't really feel much like Trek at all, though.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/05 08:11:40


Post by: Flinty


I would be happy to watch a whole series of the Ryker snippets from Lower Decks

Positivity, can do attitudes amd a lot of blowing stuff up


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/05 08:16:29


Post by: AduroT


 Albertorius wrote:
Just watched the first eps of Prodigy.

It... looks pretty? Doesn't really feel much like Trek at all, though.


A super technologically advanced ship (even by Star Trek standards), no one has Heard of star fleet or the federation, and nary a human in sight. Definitely a much different premise than is standard, but they do seem to be more optimistic in general.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/05 14:21:53


Post by: hotsauceman1


The guys clearly know about their star trek lore.
But it takes place 5 years after voyager, takes place in the delta quadrant and has caitians and tellerites.
Janeway does act like Janeway though.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/05 14:43:22


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


You mean incredibly inconsistently from episode to episode?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/05 15:36:48


Post by: AduroT


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You mean incredibly inconsistently from episode to episode?


Hard to say so far. She only briefly cameoed at the end of the first, so we don’t really get to know her till this one.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/05 16:37:21


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Overread wrote:

I do agree a lot of the more modern Treks have lost a sense of exploration and of optimism. I think they've gone for a very (what I'd consider American) approach to sci-fi of "guns and lasers and fighting and cool stuff".


Well I think also the utopian, no cash, post scarcity society would be considered too woke and left wing for a lot of audiences today.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/06 08:01:36


Post by: Jadenim


Compared to the “red menace” 1960’s??!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/06 16:29:22


Post by: trexmeyer


DS9 pushed the envelope far more than the recent Trek shows in all directions except for maybe LGBTQ+ issues.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/06 17:05:55


Post by: Cronch


The_Real_Chris wrote:
 Overread wrote:

I do agree a lot of the more modern Treks have lost a sense of exploration and of optimism. I think they've gone for a very (what I'd consider American) approach to sci-fi of "guns and lasers and fighting and cool stuff".


Well I think also the utopian, no cash, post scarcity society would be considered too woke and left wing for a lot of audiences today.

I think the issue is with mood of the audience. Post-scarcity, utopian society is much harder sell today for audiences than it was in the 60's when we basically thought science has no negative consequences and will save us from ourselves.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/06 19:15:38


Post by: Olthannon


The way I see it, we are destined for a 40k future rather than the Trek one. In a way that is what I want from Star Trek, a show that can show us how to do better. Something to hope for, for once, instead of the endless misery.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 03:20:50


Post by: Vulcan


 Olthannon wrote:
The way I see it, we are destined for a 40k future rather than the Trek one. In a way that is what I want from Star Trek, a show that can show us how to do better. Something to hope for, for once, instead of the endless misery.


Exactly. If I want to watch misery, there's the five o'clock news. Sci-fi is there to inspire, a lesson lost on many a sequel or remake (coughBSGcough).


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 16:35:14


Post by: Cronch


 Olthannon wrote:
The way I see it, we are destined for a 40k future rather than the Trek one. In a way that is what I want from Star Trek, a show that can show us how to do better. Something to hope for, for once, instead of the endless misery.

There's inspiration and there's inspiration.
A better future where we learned to set aside our petty conflicts and shouldered the massive effort of fixing Earth, and our reward has been the time needed to grow into a space-faring race, sure.
A better future where magic technology simply invalidated all our troubles? That would be believable 60 years ago, but it just isn't something that will fly for most people except the most techbro of techbros in the crust of Silicon Valley.

A show which shows the struggle to fix things will resonate much more with today's audience than a show where things are already fixed and we're all living a life of leisure. One is inspirational, the other is unattainable.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 16:48:27


Post by: Overread


Perhaps one difference is just that when many of us saw Star Trek originally we were kids to teens and now we are somewhat more jaded young adults to full adults.


That in itself can change the nature of what kind of kind of story we find we can connect with.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 17:17:14


Post by: Albertorius


 Overread wrote:
Perhaps one difference is just that when many of us saw Star Trek originally we were kids to teens and now we are somewhat more jaded young adults to full adults.


That in itself can change the nature of what kind of kind of story we find we can connect with.

Seeing as Trek was always a scifi show aimed at adults rather than kids... no, not really, for a big swath of the audience.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 19:47:11


Post by: gorgon


 Vulcan wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
The way I see it, we are destined for a 40k future rather than the Trek one. In a way that is what I want from Star Trek, a show that can show us how to do better. Something to hope for, for once, instead of the endless misery.


Exactly. If I want to watch misery, there's the five o'clock news. Sci-fi is there to inspire, a lesson lost on many a sequel or remake (coughBSGcough).


That seems like a very narrow-minded and simplistic take on the genre. Most of the best science fiction in any medium examines modern-day society...it's just dressed up as something futuristic. And humanity and modern-day society are messy things.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 20:19:02


Post by: Albertorius


 gorgon wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
The way I see it, we are destined for a 40k future rather than the Trek one. In a way that is what I want from Star Trek, a show that can show us how to do better. Something to hope for, for once, instead of the endless misery.


Exactly. If I want to watch misery, there's the five o'clock news. Sci-fi is there to inspire, a lesson lost on many a sequel or remake (coughBSGcough).


That seems like a very narrow-minded and simplistic take on the genre. Most of the best science fiction in any medium examines modern-day society...it's just dressed up as something futuristic. And humanity and modern-day society are messy things.


Usually either examine modern problems or how new technologies would affect society.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 21:20:34


Post by: Lance845


Part of the problem might be the current world issues that Trek would need to find some way to hold a mirror up to.

Like... The Klingons were the Russians in a cold war with the Federation.

Well... who's the Klingons of today for Trek to hold a mirror up to?

How do you represent anti vaxers, bad or anti science, global warming and it's denial, market and economy manipulation or debt - in a world that is post scarcity and already solved all of it's problems with science?

Most of what is wrong with the world RIGHT NOW just don't exist and cannot exist in the Startrek universe.

So what are you holding the mirror up to to show a hopeful answer and future?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 21:24:32


Post by: Flinty


I have vague memories of TNG dealing with pandemics and medical emergencies frequently. Similarly, ecological disasters are easy enough to script for. The monster of the week format allows all of these things to be addressed in bite sized chunks.

You do t need to show the federation suffering from these problems, just federation starships turning up at planets having these problems. Hell, the problems of hypercapitalism were embodied in the Ferengi by DS9. Stargate did a fair chunk of these as well if memory serves.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 21:29:03


Post by: Lance845


 Flinty wrote:
I have vague memories of TNG dealing with pandemics and medical emergencies frequently. Similarly, ecological disasters are easy enough to script for. The monster of the week format allows all of these things to be addressed in bite sized chunks.

You do t need to show the federation suffering from these problems, just federation starships turning up at planets having these problems. Hell, the problems of hypercapitalism were embodied in the Ferengi by DS9. Stargate did a fair chunk of these as well if memory serves.


The Cold War/Klingons wasn't the monster of the week. It was a story that covered the run of the show.

These things are the Cold War of today. You don't need to make an episode out of it. You need to make a SHOW out of it.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 21:52:46


Post by: Cronch


Basically this. Waving the magical Federation Tech at the silly backward aliens' climate change in one episode would really kinda...not work?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 22:02:35


Post by: Overread


Cronch wrote:
Basically this. Waving the magical Federation Tech at the silly backward aliens' climate change in one episode would really kinda...not work?


There is nothing the mighty Deflector Dish cannot solve!!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 22:10:44


Post by: LordofHats


trexmeyer wrote:
DS9 pushed the envelope far more than the recent Trek shows in all directions except for maybe LGBTQ+ issues.


I sat and thought about this, and you know considering the show was made in the 90s, it's pretty damn impressive that they addressed any LGBTQ issues at all. Mind, there were no explicitly LGBTQ characters on the show, per see, the whole two times anything related comes up is;

-Dax meeting a wife from a previous life and getting into a 'will they won't they/forbidden love' situation over it. In this episode, the two partners being women never came up to my memory. None of the characters bat an eye at the idea so while we never see any LGBTQ characters in classic Trek, it would seem that such relationships are accepted, at least enough that no one care about the two girls part of it. I do have to wonder if that was a purposeful choice (seems so) given that the episode was still about romantic taboos.
-Dax later seemed completely okay with the idea of male-male attraction, granted in the relevant episode she didn't know Pel was a woman and assumed her interest in Quark was homosexual.

Dax never makes any commentary about it, but I guess we could presume Dax was bisexual? Given the whole deal with Trills, it maybe encountered a lot less resistance in their society but no other characters make particularly phobic attitudes toward same-sex relations in the show.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 22:35:23


Post by: Overread


I think ST went for a quiet acceptance aspect on that front in general terms and never really pushed it hard enough to have a clear "agenda/message" as such. But would certainly come down on the supporting side.

Which fits because outside of Kirk kissing every female he met, the general theme of ST is fairly non-sexual and leans more on romancing elements where relationships do happen. If anything the most overt sexual elements were probably Tashsa and Data way back in the early series of TNG.


Jadzia Dax certainly showed a lot of sexual freedom in terms of not holding back affections or attitudes. Something we saw Dax using to good effect several times. However Esrie Dax was very different and a bit more reserved. So whilst the symbiote might bring with it a host of memories; those are tied to personalities within and clearly the host also has an influence. It might be more true to say that Jadzia was more potentially bisexual and overt and that the symbiote brought more of that out; whilst Esrie was more reserved and I forget if she showed much affection toward anyone (though by that point the series was more focused on the war).


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 22:43:17


Post by: Lance845


I suppose you could make a Trek show that is told from a view outside the Federation?

Because in order to hold a mirror up to today, you need the Federation to fall into ineffective inaction due to calculated or negligent misinformation and more or less watch it degrade and fall apart.

With that context, in order to have your hope and eat it too, you need an outside perspective that is effected by but still outside of the Federation but acting to find solutions and salvage the situation and come out the other side with whatever comes next.

The Federations tech doesn't matter if they are grid locked out of using it.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 22:59:23


Post by: Overread


I guess the problem with that is that Trek always used other races to display very heavily biased societies with the Federation being the hot melting pot of acceptance and general forward/diverse thinking.

I think trying to really go into depth on that would be hard. The series would either have to reinforce those extreme differences ot make the aliens alien; by which point you might lose the attention of the casual audiences; or they'd steadily become more and more Federation in attitude and then you'd have the issue that they are just watering down other races. Even if all they are doing is exploring within the lore .


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 23:06:27


Post by: Lance845


Well like... you could still have humans and vulcans and whatever in the outside group. They might even be a group that splinters off from the Federation because of it's stagnation.

But the Federation has always been the rock. The NATO. The UN. But to hold a mirror up to current issues... well.. That means the Federation is now the problem.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 23:25:37


Post by: Overread


I think that's what Picard is aiming for - though by the mirror of a group within the Federation rather than outside of it. I'm actually surprised they are as tame as they are with aliens in the group - but that might also be linked to budgets and technical skills. Things like Ferangie take a lot of make up to achieve.

Vulcans and Romulans you can do with a few head bumps and ear attachments.



That said second season is bringing in Q so that can throw everything up in the air in terms of what we'll get. Though I do like using Q as a "so what if" angle as you can do all kinds of funky stuff and in the end he clicks his fingres and its all back to "normal" save the experiences the characters learn.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/07 23:28:34


Post by: hotsauceman1


I think it of it this way.
TOS-TNG was the federation being that big rock. Not facing much adversity
But then the Borg and Dominion war happened and tested them and they where found wanting. That their systems needed to be reevaluated and looked at. And that is what we are seeing now.
Heck, Discovery S3 as bad as it was showed us the federation endures, it continues it's outreach and it still fight for the little man where it can.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/08 02:26:19


Post by: Vulcan


 gorgon wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
The way I see it, we are destined for a 40k future rather than the Trek one. In a way that is what I want from Star Trek, a show that can show us how to do better. Something to hope for, for once, instead of the endless misery.


Exactly. If I want to watch misery, there's the five o'clock news. Sci-fi is there to inspire, a lesson lost on many a sequel or remake (coughBSGcough).


That seems like a very narrow-minded and simplistic take on the genre. Most of the best science fiction in any medium examines modern-day society...it's just dressed up as something futuristic. And humanity and modern-day society are messy things.


That's fair.

I suppose I should say that it's my preference to not watch depictions of abject misery in scifi and instead look for more inspirational or light-hearted material.

To each their own, after all.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/08 03:47:46


Post by: DeathKorp_Rider


I’m happy with Lower Decks honestly. I usually hate Star Trek but I’ve really gotten into it


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/08 04:08:42


Post by: Voss


 Overread wrote:
I think that's what Picard is aiming for - though by the mirror of a group within the Federation rather than outside of it. I'm actually surprised they are as tame as they are with aliens in the group - but that might also be linked to budgets and technical skills. Things like Ferangie take a lot of make up to achieve.

Vulcans and Romulans you can do with a few head bumps and ear attachments.



That said second season is bringing in Q so that can throw everything up in the air in terms of what we'll get. Though I do like using Q as a "so what if" angle as you can do all kinds of funky stuff and in the end he clicks his fingres and its all back to "normal" save the experiences the characters learn.


I kind of hate that about Q episodes. It becomes less 'So what if?' and more 'So what?'


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/08 06:44:10


Post by: Olthannon


Cronch wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
The way I see it, we are destined for a 40k future rather than the Trek one. In a way that is what I want from Star Trek, a show that can show us how to do better. Something to hope for, for once, instead of the endless misery.

There's inspiration and there's inspiration.
A better future where we learned to set aside our petty conflicts and shouldered the massive effort of fixing Earth, and our reward has been the time needed to grow into a space-faring race, sure.
A better future where magic technology simply invalidated all our troubles? That would be believable 60 years ago, but it just isn't something that will fly for most people except the most techbro of techbros in the crust of Silicon Valley.

A show which shows the struggle to fix things will resonate much more with today's audience than a show where things are already fixed and we're all living a life of leisure. One is inspirational, the other is unattainable.


Aye exactly what I want from the genre. What you have described there is the difference between a well written sci fi show and a badly written one


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/08 07:28:18


Post by: Albertorius


 Vulcan wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
The way I see it, we are destined for a 40k future rather than the Trek one. In a way that is what I want from Star Trek, a show that can show us how to do better. Something to hope for, for once, instead of the endless misery.


Exactly. If I want to watch misery, there's the five o'clock news. Sci-fi is there to inspire, a lesson lost on many a sequel or remake (coughBSGcough).


That seems like a very narrow-minded and simplistic take on the genre. Most of the best science fiction in any medium examines modern-day society...it's just dressed up as something futuristic. And humanity and modern-day society are messy things.


That's fair.

I suppose I should say that it's my preference to not watch depictions of abject misery in scifi and instead look for more inspirational or light-hearted material.

To each their own, after all.

I mean, I get it, but this is mainly a 40k forum ^^


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/08 09:03:10


Post by: Overread


Voss wrote:
 Overread wrote:
I think that's what Picard is aiming for - though by the mirror of a group within the Federation rather than outside of it. I'm actually surprised they are as tame as they are with aliens in the group - but that might also be linked to budgets and technical skills. Things like Ferangie take a lot of make up to achieve.

Vulcans and Romulans you can do with a few head bumps and ear attachments.



That said second season is bringing in Q so that can throw everything up in the air in terms of what we'll get. Though I do like using Q as a "so what if" angle as you can do all kinds of funky stuff and in the end he clicks his fingres and its all back to "normal" save the experiences the characters learn.


I kind of hate that about Q episodes. It becomes less 'So what if?' and more 'So what?'


Yeah but it lets the writers get all those "What ifs?" out of their system without suddenly ending up changing the whole setting through a time warp loop restart or something like that. Because those things always feel cheap/wrong to me in a series that isn't about time itself.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/08 12:39:23


Post by: Mr Morden


Voss wrote:
 Overread wrote:
I think that's what Picard is aiming for - though by the mirror of a group within the Federation rather than outside of it. I'm actually surprised they are as tame as they are with aliens in the group - but that might also be linked to budgets and technical skills. Things like Ferangie take a lot of make up to achieve.

Vulcans and Romulans you can do with a few head bumps and ear attachments.



That said second season is bringing in Q so that can throw everything up in the air in terms of what we'll get. Though I do like using Q as a "so what if" angle as you can do all kinds of funky stuff and in the end he clicks his fingres and its all back to "normal" save the experiences the characters learn.


I kind of hate that about Q episodes. It becomes less 'So what if?' and more 'So what?'


Its pretty much every time travel episode in any sci-fi show - almost always it merely resets..... it was quite amusing in Timeless when they would come back and it had changed every time or in Stargate and they said "close enough"


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/08 14:56:42


Post by: lord_blackfang


 LordofHats wrote:
The thing I've kind of settled on that really separates old Star Trek from new Star Trek is the sense of optimism has been cut from the franchise.

Star Trek is a optimistic vision of a humanity that has achieved some sense of utopia in its own time. They still have problems and there are still trials and flaws in the hearts of the characters and the world around them, but their prevailing attitude is that these struggles can be overcome. The classic era of Star Trek (TOS to lets say Voyager) did various plays on this premise and the places such people might go the situations they might encounter, but there was always this optimistic tone to the shows. Even during the darkest moments like the Dominion War and first contact with the Borg, that the future could be a better place with better people at least trying to solve their problems in better ways.

This really came home for me when I tried watching Picard and couldn't. It's not that dark Star Trek can't be done, but Picard wasn't dark Star Trek. It was just this edgy and gritty action banaza and I'm going to set aside any other criticisms I have of it (and Discovery's) writing too focus just on the thing that I think they're lacking.

They're not optimistic about the future. In newer Star Trek shows, the future is just as bleak, frightening, and chaotic as the present. The Federation is not an enlightened utopia striving to be better even when it stumbles, it's just as fethed up as anywhere else and paradise is a lie.

And that's not Star Trek.

The big exception is Lower Decks, which I've caved in a watched and I very much like. It's not an A+ series. It relies too much on in-jokes and references IMO, but it does have that optimism and enthusiasm for the possibilities of the future Discovery and Picard are too busy being edgy and 'serious' to bother with. I particularly enjoy the characters of Tendi and Boimler, who feel like they're living the life that every Star Trek fan would like to live, exploring the stars, developing themselves, and embracing the awe of what they're doing and where they are with the utmost enthusiasm. That's Star Trek to me.


Yeah this. To me, Star Trek is supposed to be a celebration of the best that humanity can be, not a generic blockbuster wannabe soulless laser light show (Abrams).


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/08 15:36:04


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 Lance845 wrote:


Because in order to hold a mirror up to today, you need the Federation to fall into ineffective inaction due to calculated or negligent misinformation and more or less watch it degrade and fall apart.

With that context, in order to have your hope and eat it too, you need an outside perspective that is effected by but still outside of the Federation but acting to find solutions and salvage the situation and come out the other side with whatever comes next.

The Federations tech doesn't matter if they are grid locked out of using it.


Isn't this kind of Disco S3?? I mean, lets set aside "how does burnham save the day today?" elements for a moment. The entire ship ends up in the wrong century, and now you have a crew out of time, bringing their ideals with them confronting an entirely new galaxy, and a Federation seemingly on the verge of collapse (well, at least until burnham can apply her magic touch through intentional disobeying orders, circumventing command channels, and romancing a temporal local).

Without going too much into spoilers for those who /want/ to watch it, there are several scenes where, Discovery is trying to piece together this grand plot, and the federation has either dug in on a faulty position, or willfully ignores new information. . . OR having to deal with a separated Vulcan and all of their nonsense to gain access to information.

Sure, its probably not the most well executed story telling out there, but I do think it is there, IF you can push past "burnham saves the day".


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/08 19:50:32


Post by: Ahtman


 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Sure, its probably not the most well executed story telling out there


The sun is a little warm.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/16 11:03:52


Post by: Togusa


DS9, TNG and VOY are my go-to series. I grew up with them and they're so well ingrained in who I am that it's easy for me to use episodes of those shows to help when I'm down, or stressed in life.

The new Star Trek stuff hasn't had the same effect. The new movies were just awful, though I held that opinion about all of the movies from the 90s/2000s as well. I've always been of the opinion that Star Trek just doesn't work in film because the core idea is to tell a story about a group of characters and you need a lot more time than two hours to do that.

Take this example from DS9:

Nog formerly requests Sisko's letter of recommendation for his application to Starfleet academy. That's in "Heart of Stone" (S3E14). But if you look at his character, and his reasons for wanting to join Starfleet, the apotheosis of that decision can be seen as early as "A Man Alone" (S1, E4) and "The Nagus" (S1, E11). But if you think about it it possibly goes even deeper as we know that Rom and Nog came to Quark's bar DURRING The Cardassian occupation of Bajor, meaning both Rom and Nog would have been witnesses to those crimes the Cardassian military committed on Terok Nor, and that possibly would have been the catalyst for Nog's eventual decision as he clearly acts more like his gentle father than his aggressive uncle.

Over the next four seasons Nog's character grows considerably both in attitude, maturity and intelligence. By the time we get to one of my favorite "two-parters" of all of Star Trek, "The Siege of AR-558" (S7E8) and its technical follow-up episode, "It's Only a Paper Moon" (S7E10), Nog's entire character has grown and changed from when we first me him into the very model of a Starfleet officer, showing how he's embraced the ideals, even when we see he still brings the best of his culture to his new collective "Treachery, Faith and the Great River" (S7E6).

None of this would have been possible in even a trilogy of films, at least not to the level of development and time put into one character, who began as a minor character at that. I mean I didn't even touch on how Nog is challenged in "Valliant" (S6E22) or "Rocks and Shoals" (S6E2), and in "In the Cards" (S5E25) where we see traces of Nogs new personality and character being explored.

But none of the new shows have even tried to do something like this, Picard has so far been bland and uninspired, where as Discovery has been a cluster chuck of just...I don't even know how to describe it. Even Enterprise (I'd argue that Enterprise is an even bigger fuckup than anything produced in the last ten years) had better flow and direction than Discovery has so far...

It just amazes me that stuff like Axanar can be so well loved by the community and so supported, yet Paramount can look at it and still claim to not know why Star Trek is a failing franchise...almost as if they're being deliberately obtuse.

 lord_blackfang wrote:


Yeah this. To me, Star Trek is supposed to be a celebration of the best that humanity can be, not a generic blockbuster wannabe soulless laser light show (Abrams).


While I agree, I think Star Trek is more akin to what Data said to Lal in "The Offspring" (TNG S3E16) "It is the struggle itself that is most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will not reach our ultimate goal. The effort itself yields its own reward.”

And that's what I think Trek is. We see lots of times where the ideals of the Federation are bent, twisted or corrupted, but it's the fact that as a whole the organization seems to seek to confront these issues, rather than hide them, S31 aside of course which is a different beast.

I'll say it too, every time I get into one of these discussions. Destroying Romulus and Vulcan and making their destructions "Cannon" was a horrendous idea that hasn't served any important role in creating stories and instead has damaged several possible subplots that could have been used in future franchise media.

In going back to OP's question: I don't know what the best option is for the future of the franchise other than to say that Star Trek needs its own Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni, producers who fundamentally understand what the franchise is actually about.

In a way we need another "Next Generation" to once again revive the series and incorporate the best of the world we live in (in terms of modern values) with the very heart of what Roddenberry set out to create all those years ago.

Something hopeful, positive and grounded in solid values for a new generation to discover and fall in love with.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/16 11:30:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


To expand on that?

Good Trek, like Nog’s journey, is about the betterment of all. The Federation itself isn’t a monolithic organisation. It’s kind of elective. Just because your species has joined, the individual doesn’t have to. They’re free to go off and do as they please. Likewise your species doesn’t need to be a member for you to join Starfleet and aid the Federation in its goals.

TNG really leaned into that with Worf, and DS9 explored it further, including the ongoing but never quite resolved thread of Bajor joining up.

Voyager remains a missed opportunity, especially we don’t see a great deal of character development, and what we do get is pretty hamfisted.

With DS9 neatly setting up the Maquis, to see that complement of the crew just sort of…..fall in line, was disappointing and a missed opportunity. And poor old Ensign Kim. No promotions for you, because…erm……well just because.

Redo it. Have Voyager be the only Alpha Quadrant ship to survive the abduction due to the bio-neural gel pack technology. Have Janeway broker a loose alliance, share the technology and lead a Wagon Train Back From The Stars.

I didn’t get on with Enterprise, so I’ll refrain from showing my ignorance and simply say “a prequel series wasn’t necessary at all”.

Disco? Enjoyed the first two seasons. Third showed a real glimmer of greatness when the focus wasn’t on Burnham, but it went on to poop the bed in its later episodes.

Picard? This is what I’ve been waiting for. The scene has shifted. The Federation isn’t quite the same Carey Sharey paradise it was pre-Dominion War. We’ve seen a former magnificent Statesman lose his faith in Starfleet, but still be determined to make the Galaxy a better and more peaceful place. And we’ve only had the first season, so I feel it’s too early to pass judgement. Just give Sir Patrick his head, and let him lead. Show us Picard finding his own redemption.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/16 13:15:56


Post by: AduroT


 Togusa wrote:
Spoiler:
DS9, TNG and VOY are my go-to series. I grew up with them and they're so well ingrained in who I am that it's easy for me to use episodes of those shows to help when I'm down, or stressed in life.

The new Star Trek stuff hasn't had the same effect. The new movies were just awful, though I held that opinion about all of the movies from the 90s/2000s as well. I've always been of the opinion that Star Trek just doesn't work in film because the core idea is to tell a story about a group of characters and you need a lot more time than two hours to do that.

Take this example from DS9:

Nog formerly requests Sisko's letter of recommendation for his application to Starfleet academy. That's in "Heart of Stone" (S3E14). But if you look at his character, and his reasons for wanting to join Starfleet, the apotheosis of that decision can be seen as early as "A Man Alone" (S1, E4) and "The Nagus" (S1, E11). But if you think about it it possibly goes even deeper as we know that Rom and Nog came to Quark's bar DURRING The Cardassian occupation of Bajor, meaning both Rom and Nog would have been witnesses to those crimes the Cardassian military committed on Terok Nor, and that possibly would have been the catalyst for Nog's eventual decision as he clearly acts more like his gentle father than his aggressive uncle.

Over the next four seasons Nog's character grows considerably both in attitude, maturity and intelligence. By the time we get to one of my favorite "two-parters" of all of Star Trek, "The Siege of AR-558" (S7E8) and its technical follow-up episode, "It's Only a Paper Moon" (S7E10), Nog's entire character has grown and changed from when we first me him into the very model of a Starfleet officer, showing how he's embraced the ideals, even when we see he still brings the best of his culture to his new collective "Treachery, Faith and the Great River" (S7E6).

None of this would have been possible in even a trilogy of films, at least not to the level of development and time put into one character, who began as a minor character at that. I mean I didn't even touch on how Nog is challenged in "Valliant" (S6E22) or "Rocks and Shoals" (S6E2), and in "In the Cards" (S5E25) where we see traces of Nogs new personality and character being explored.

But none of the new shows have even tried to do something like this, Picard has so far been bland and uninspired, where as Discovery has been a cluster chuck of just...I don't even know how to describe it. Even Enterprise (I'd argue that Enterprise is an even bigger fuckup than anything produced in the last ten years) had better flow and direction than Discovery has so far...

It just amazes me that stuff like Axanar can be so well loved by the community and so supported, yet Paramount can look at it and still claim to not know why Star Trek is a failing franchise...almost as if they're being deliberately obtuse.




It Is a real shame Picard hasn’t been able to capture that kind of breadth of character development in its sole season so far that DS9 pulled off over its seven.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/16 13:53:07


Post by: Mr Morden


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I didn’t get on with Enterprise, so I’ll refrain from showing my ignorance and simply say “a prequel series wasn’t necessary at all”.

Disco? Enjoyed the first two seasons. Third showed a real glimmer of greatness when the focus wasn’t on Burnham, but it went on to poop the bed in its later episodes.

Picard? This is what I’ve been waiting for. The scene has shifted. The Federation isn’t quite the same Carey Sharey paradise it was pre-Dominion War. We’ve seen a former magnificent Statesman lose his faith in Starfleet, but still be determined to make the Galaxy a better and more peaceful place. And we’ve only had the first season, so I feel it’s too early to pass judgement. Just give Sir Patrick his head, and let him lead. Show us Picard finding his own redemption.


When did it ever not focuss on Burnham??

Picard - it was not bad with some interesting characters but had an absolute dog of a final episode - truly awful writing from start to end.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/16 13:57:12


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


There were a few non-Burnham centric episodes in season 3. Around the half way point.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/16 15:02:10


Post by: The Revenant


trexmeyer wrote:
DS9 pushed the envelope far more than the recent Trek shows in all directions except for maybe LGBTQ+ issues.


it had a couple eps touching on that, like when jadzia dax met a woman one of her earlier hosts had loved. Also the mirror mirror ep where the mirror universe ezri dax made it clear she was sexually interested in the mirror universe dabo girl.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/16 17:03:07


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


DS9 very much pushed the LGBTQ+ envelope in its day.

This is one of the things I think peeps need to keep in mind. For better or worse, we can’t fairly judge how subversive or progressive a show of yesteryear was or wasn’t by today’s standards.

The writers may have wanted to do more, but nervous studios say no. Indeed, the whole “kill your queers” trope came from “ok you can have a gay character but no lasting happiness for them, or else! originated in such restrictions.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/16 17:21:04


Post by: Albertorius


...you know, each time I see the title, I read it as "Whiter Star Trek".

Throws me each time ^^


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/16 19:49:47


Post by: trexmeyer


The Revenant wrote:
trexmeyer wrote:
DS9 pushed the envelope far more than the recent Trek shows in all directions except for maybe LGBTQ+ issues.


it had a couple eps touching on that, like when jadzia dax met a woman one of her earlier hosts had loved. Also the mirror mirror ep where the mirror universe ezri dax made it clear she was sexually interested in the mirror universe dabo girl.


My point was that DS9 had diverse casting and also addressed issues of racism, terrorism, and religion to a greater degree than any Star Trek show to come after despite being a product of the 90's.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 00:25:27


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Two days before the premiere and Paramount has pulled Discovery from all international markets:

Gizmodo Article wrote:For three seasons, most of the world has watched Star Trek: Discovery through Netflix, the streaming platform that was, outside of the U.S. at least, also home to most of Star Trek’s past as well. But in a shocking move, days before the series was set to return to the streamer for its fourth season, now those fans will have to wait—and sign up for an entirely different streaming service.

Deadline reports that ViacomCBS has paid off the lucrative deal that brought Discovery to Netflix across the world outside of the U.S. and Canada four years ago, pulling the entire show from the platform at midnight tonight. The removal also means that Discovery’s fourth season, which was expected to begin airing weekly on Netflix starting this Friday, November 19—a day after it premieres on Paramount+ in the U.S. and on CTV’s Sci-Fi Channel in Canada—will now not air in international markets for at least a few months.




I mean... that's just going out of their way to create a whole new flurry of piracy.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 00:39:54


Post by: Overread


And this is one big downside of multiple completing streaming services. The other being that some series won't make it to DVD/Bluray release either because they are always streamed. Or if they do its a limited edition high price type deal.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 00:41:13


Post by: insaniak


It's mind-bogglingly short-sighted.

For all it's faults, I had been enjoying Disco and looking forward to Strange New Worlds, which I would assume now will also be restricted to P+.

I have zero interest in signing up for another streaming service, even if it was available now. Content producers need to pick a darn platform and use that instead of everyone and their dog releasing their own separate paid service. That or someone needs to set up a 'nexus' service that lets you pay a single subscription fee to access content from any of the streaming services.

Either way, not happy about this decision, and it will likely mean I'll miss this season completely.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 00:52:56


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
DS9 very much pushed the LGBTQ+ envelope in its day.

This is one of the things I think peeps need to keep in mind. For better or worse, we can’t fairly judge how subversive or progressive a show of yesteryear was or wasn’t by today’s standards.

The writers may have wanted to do more, but nervous studios say no. Indeed, the whole “kill your queers” trope came from “ok you can have a gay character but no lasting happiness for them, or else! originated in such restrictions.



It is interesting to me, or at least the part of me with a history degree and an eye for historical study, how Trek has operated throughout its existence.

I mean, in the 1960s, it seems that /everything/ in media and entertainment was easier to get made at the outset. . . Pitch a show about wagon train to the stars? SURE, lets see how it goes! We got a guy writing up a story about a middle eastern fairy tail, and we combine it with a standard, good looking American scientist??? Lets try it, see how people like it (I dream of Jeanie). That's not even going into the creation of entire genres of music that were going on at the time as well.

But with time, the youthful exuberance that really pushed the boundaries (a la, first interracial kiss on air, TOS) gets promoted higher up the media empire food chain. . . now they have more to lose, so they don't want to risk what they got, and they try to dampen things down a bit, not push as much. Pretty soon, everything starts looking like everything else. Remember in the 90s, when NYPD Blue came on the scene? Everyone (in over the air media) was going "this is so original and groundbreaking!!!" and within a couple years, we have a dozen NYPD Blue clones. And, on the success of TNG, we get several sci-fi themed "clones" (I put it in quotes because well, we are HERE. . . and I'd reckon there was just slightly enough differences to make them close family, rather than TV clones). And as a studio head type person, if your "original" series is competing with so many closely related shows all in the same time slots, you "need" to protect your show and that time slot, you you can't really push the way you may actually want to, because you dont want to jeopardize the safety of your running contract


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 07:06:06


Post by: Albertorius


Well, I didn't actually finish the third season, so it won't affect me much, but... that blows, nonetheless.

I guess I'll pirate it if I ever decide to finish it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
It's mind-bogglingly short-sighted.

For all it's faults, I had been enjoying Disco and looking forward to Strange New Worlds, which I would assume now will also be restricted to P+.

I have zero interest in signing up for another streaming service, even if it was available now. Content producers need to pick a darn platform and use that instead of everyone and their dog releasing their own separate paid service. That or someone needs to set up a 'nexus' service that lets you pay a single subscription fee to access content from any of the streaming services.

Either way, not happy about this decision, and it will likely mean I'll miss this season completely.


The more streaming services there are, the more I'm deciding to just unsubscribe everything.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 07:12:52


Post by: AduroT




Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 07:18:46


Post by: Albertorius


Who would have seen that coming, right?

What a twist: people is willing to pay for good service, but not when you're trying to squeeze blood out of rocks. Who knew.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 07:37:14


Post by: Jadenim


I watched part of the first series when it premiered on Channel 4 in the UK, but never got round to finishing it (didn’t have Netflix at the time). I now do have Netflix and it was on my “I’ll get round to that at some point” list. Guess now I…won’t.

This proliferation of streaming services is getting to be ridiculous.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 08:38:39


Post by: AduroT


So apparently the new Chip n Dale series is going to do a Roger Rabbit cartoons living with people type setting, and one of the major threat plots they’re dealing with is video piracy.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 10:21:45


Post by: Albertorius


 AduroT wrote:
So apparently the new Chip n Dale series is going to do a Roger Rabbit cartoons living with people type setting, and one of the major threat plots they’re dealing with is video piracy.

...right. It smells to me like "corpo empty suit's pet project".


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 18:48:55


Post by: The Revenant


 Albertorius wrote:
Who would have seen that coming, right?

What a twist: people is willing to pay for good service, but not when you're trying to squeeze blood out of rocks. Who knew.

Um, everyone who wasn't a plutocrat?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 18:56:04


Post by: Mr Morden


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Two days before the premiere and Paramount has pulled Discovery from all international markets:

Gizmodo Article wrote:For three seasons, most of the world has watched Star Trek: Discovery through Netflix, the streaming platform that was, outside of the U.S. at least, also home to most of Star Trek’s past as well. But in a shocking move, days before the series was set to return to the streamer for its fourth season, now those fans will have to wait—and sign up for an entirely different streaming service.

Deadline reports that ViacomCBS has paid off the lucrative deal that brought Discovery to Netflix across the world outside of the U.S. and Canada four years ago, pulling the entire show from the platform at midnight tonight. The removal also means that Discovery’s fourth season, which was expected to begin airing weekly on Netflix starting this Friday, November 19—a day after it premieres on Paramount+ in the U.S. and on CTV’s Sci-Fi Channel in Canada—will now not air in international markets for at least a few months.




I mean... that's just going out of their way to create a whole new flurry of piracy.


Hopefully it just kills of the whole show.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 18:56:37


Post by: Albertorius


The Revenant wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
Who would have seen that coming, right?

What a twist: people is willing to pay for good service, but not when you're trying to squeeze blood out of rocks. Who knew.

Um, everyone who wasn't a plutocrat?


Yep. That is the joke :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Two days before the premiere and Paramount has pulled Discovery from all international markets:

Gizmodo Article wrote:For three seasons, most of the world has watched Star Trek: Discovery through Netflix, the streaming platform that was, outside of the U.S. at least, also home to most of Star Trek’s past as well. But in a shocking move, days before the series was set to return to the streamer for its fourth season, now those fans will have to wait—and sign up for an entirely different streaming service.

Deadline reports that ViacomCBS has paid off the lucrative deal that brought Discovery to Netflix across the world outside of the U.S. and Canada four years ago, pulling the entire show from the platform at midnight tonight. The removal also means that Discovery’s fourth season, which was expected to begin airing weekly on Netflix starting this Friday, November 19—a day after it premieres on Paramount+ in the U.S. and on CTV’s Sci-Fi Channel in Canada—will now not air in international markets for at least a few months.




I mean... that's just going out of their way to create a whole new flurry of piracy.


Hopefully it just kills of the whole show.


We can not like a show and still be classy enough to let other people enjoy it, please? I got bored of it mid second season, IIRC, but that doesn't mean I want the people who like it to lose it.

And you know this is the beginning, right? There's Picard, Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks, too, and if you really expect those not to have the same treatment, well...

Anyways, that communicate is basically a huge "go feth yourseves, suckers!" sign, particularly two days before the start of the new season.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 19:26:14


Post by: Cronch


Execs are just amazing at murdering the golden egg laying geese, aren't they?

Yeah, I'm sure I'll subscribe to...paramount plus. Yeah. Right after I subscribe to the ten other streaming services that have 20 movies each and two series high-profile enough to remember their title.

We're going to hit the point of diminishing returns in a year or two and then the small ones will close down quietly in two years more when they fail to bring the expected profits because what sane person will subscribe to ParamountPlus vs Didney or Netflix?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 19:36:24


Post by: Overread


The worst thing will be when some close down but retain long term rights to the shows that they had; locking those shows out of moving to other streaming services and potentially killing them off at worst; or for those that are completed, killing future sales and opportunities to watch them.


The other option is someone will come up with a single catch-all subscription for a whole bunch of them under one umbrella. So I could well see Amazon Prime buying up access to multiple channels that way (heck it already has multiple optional paid extra ones


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 19:44:50


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Back when Netflix used to mail disks, I started collecting movies and shows we knew we would want to watch in DVD format. When Netflix started streaming, my friends gave me a bit of a hard time about keeping so much physical media on hand. Now that streaming has become a hot mess—a show we are in the middle of enjoying is leaving Netflix in December—my friends have changed their tune.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 19:49:56


Post by: Overread


I have nothing like the collection of DVD/Bluray that I want but yeah I'm much the same.

I weaken on video games (because so many of them now even if they have a physical release are little more than a download code for the steam store and wouldn't even work without the steam store running); but for films, TV shows and music I much much prefer to own physical media.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 22:23:19


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Albertorius wrote:
Well, I didn't actually finish the third season, so it won't affect me much, but... that blows, nonetheless.
SPOILER ALERT: Michael solved everything perfectly and the Admiral admitted that he should have just done everything her way from the beginning then promoted her to Captain of the Discovery over Saru.

I am not making that up. It sounds like I am, but I'm not.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Back when Netflix used to mail disks, I started collecting movies and shows we knew we would want to watch in DVD format. When Netflix started streaming, my friends gave me a bit of a hard time about keeping so much physical media on hand. Now that streaming has become a hot mess—a show we are in the middle of enjoying is leaving Netflix in December—my friends have changed their tune.
I still buy physical media. Anything on these streaming services could vanish tomorrow, including the entire service itself, taking with it everything we watch. As long as my Blu-Ray player keeps working though, my stuff will remain.




Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 23:30:36


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I couldn’t even tell you what other shows Paramount offer.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/17 23:38:46


Post by: Albertorius


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I couldn’t even tell you what other shows Paramount offer.

Me neither. Nor will I be going to be able to.

Well... actually I can. None whatsoever, because P+ doesn't exist here.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/18 00:51:43


Post by: chromedog


It will from next year (they are rolling out P+ to most of Europe in 2022.)


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/18 01:15:56


Post by: H.B.M.C.


That's great for next year, but right now they have a new show that they were about to start that they've suddenly ripped away from a good chunk of its audience.

That's pretty boneheaded. It's going to dramatically increase piracy as a result.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/18 02:58:27


Post by: Vulcan


Not to mention getting people to just shrug and walk away from your show, or even your entire studio.

Anymore, I find the small independant content creators on YouTube to be far more entertaining than any mass media studio. I might never have discovered this, had Disney not taken a good chunk of the stuff I used to watch off Netflix and into their own black hole of a download service. So... (shrug). I don't miss it.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/18 03:11:34


Post by: insaniak


Disney at least has enough content to make their service worth paying for. I have no idea what's even on Paramount+... a quick look at their website shows only a handful of examples of what they have on offer, and from what's shown the only thing I would actually watch is Indiana Jones, which I already have on DVD. So I would be signing up solely for future Star Trek which, even as a lifetime Trekkie, isn't going to happen.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/18 03:16:06


Post by: H.B.M.C.


And only a madman would start a streaming service that lacked any content.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/18 05:39:04


Post by: LordofHats


 insaniak wrote:
Disney at least has enough content to make their service worth paying for. I have no idea what's even on Paramount+... a quick look at their website shows only a handful of examples of what they have on offer, and from what's shown the only thing I would actually watch is Indiana Jones, which I already have on DVD. So I would be signing up solely for future Star Trek which, even as a lifetime Trekkie, isn't going to happen.


It's quite literally mostly gaudy reality TV shows. And not any of the so bad they're amusing ones. When I had a free trial on Amazon Prime to watch Lower Decks, most of the menu was seasons of survivor.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/18 08:04:20


Post by: AduroT


Only streaming service I pay for is Disney, because I like their shows and it was nearly a constant stream of new ones there for a bit and I wanted to support that. Everything else… Yar.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/18 08:18:11


Post by: Olthannon


And so a new golden age of piracy beckons.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/18 11:18:07


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Disney+ has really solid content in the U.K., because we also get Star added in.

I ditched Netflix because so much of it is utter dross, and I’m particularly put off by dishonest documentaries.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/18 12:00:01


Post by: Albertorius


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Disney+ has really solid content in the U.K., because we also get Star added in.

I ditched Netflix because so much of it is utter dross, and I’m particularly put off by dishonest documentaries.


Same here, and I'm about to ditch Netflix, now they've raised the price to 18 euros a month.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/18 12:31:59


Post by: Overread


The only one I have is Amazon Prime and that's more for the free postage which in a good year mostly pays for itself in small costs on free posted things.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2188/12/18 04:01:55


Post by: Ahtman


I just saw some ads for season 4 of STD and the tag line for this season is "Her time is now".


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/18 22:49:18


Post by: LordofHats


 Ahtman wrote:
I just saw some ads for season 4 of STD and the tag line for this season is "Her time is now".


It's funny because that tagline is 4 seasons late and everything I don't like about the show XD


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/19 03:04:29


Post by: Just Tony


 LordofHats wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
I just saw some ads for season 4 of STD and the tag line for this season is "Her time is now".


It's funny because that tagline is 4 seasons late and everything I don't like about the show XD


They really need to rename it "The Michael Burnham Hour with special cameo by the rest of the Star Trek universe".


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/19 05:35:35


Post by: BrianDavion


their making her a captain honestly is a tact admission that the entire inital premise of the show doesn't work, since when it first was created they outright said "it's the first series where the main character isn't the captain" (which shows how little the series heads understood trek but...)


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/19 05:51:41


Post by: LordofHats


It could totally work for the main character to not be the captain. Lower Decks makes it work. The issue with Discovery is that Burnham is the Not-Captain. She's totally captain. Except she's not. Except when she is. But we totally swear she's not the captain.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/19 07:27:18


Post by: AduroT


Captain would be a demotion.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/19 23:45:50


Post by: chromedog


Silvia Tilly got promoted to Lt j.g.

Harry Kim is still awaiting his promotion ...


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/20 05:47:46


Post by: trexmeyer


The only Star Trek show where the main character is absolutely the captain/CO would be DS9 and maybe TOS if only by virtue of TOS having a greatly reduced cast in comparison to the rest. I really feel like TNG focused more on "secondary" characters than it did on Picard. Sisko is the MC of DS9 not necessarily because he dominates episode appearances, but because he is the most crucial to the plot.

TOS focused heavily on the Big 3 above all, but TNG, DS9, and VOY all had large casts where many characters got significant attention. Maybe DIS corrected that issue after S2, but I remember it being all Michael, all the time.

The Star Trek that TNG, DS9, and VOY developed was really one of anti-elitism. Everyone had value. Everyone could contribute. They actually attacked in-universe prejucides. DIS isn't that.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/20 06:19:28


Post by: Vaktathi


Honestly, I'm finding Lower Decks to be the best Trek content in years if not decades.

If you can deal with it being animated, and don't mind some of the over-the-topness, it really does hit the spot.

Picard I feel ended up just being an even lamer Mass Effect. Discovery's plot was just incomprehensible and I really just stopped caring. But Lower Decks really does hit the spot. I'm also a total sucker for animation however.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/20 08:34:51


Post by: AduroT


Good news! If you were worried that the Starfleet admiral deciding Michael really IS right all the time and she should be in charge meant she wouldn’t be able to rail against authority this season, then you can be comforted by the knowledge they’ve introduced a new Starfleet President who doesn’t think she’s up to snuff because she risked the entire ship to save three people. Granted, she only managed to save two of the three, and doing so cost an additional three lives plus half a dozen injured… (I might be low balling the casualties, I don’t recall the exact numbers) But by golly she’s going to prove that you should always shoot for the best outcome despite anything like odds.

Also there’s a brand new mysterious threat that’s going to destroy everything. Or at least a lot. It’s only destroyed a space station and one planet so far that we know of, but I’m sure it will threaten all of space time somehow.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/20 12:03:08


Post by: LordofHats


 Vaktathi wrote:
Honestly, I'm finding Lower Decks to be the best Trek content in years if not decades.

If you can deal with it being animated, and don't mind some of the over-the-topness, it really does hit the spot.

Picard I feel ended up just being an even lamer Mass Effect. Discovery's plot was just incomprehensible and I really just stopped caring. But Lower Decks really does hit the spot. I'm also a total sucker for animation however.


Agreed.

Lower Decks really hits its stride in season 2 IMO, where it's finally figured out who its characters are and what the show is about. It's a comedy yeah, but in a way it doesn't feel that different from Old Trek. It just takes the situations Old Trek would have once a week and recasts them as 'welp here we go again people let's do it Starfleet horah!' And it maintains that optimism and enthusiasm that I think really makes Star Trek Star Trek. I very much enjoyed Adrenaline Junkie Riker and it's nice how Lower Decks weaves into itself these subtle but seemingly consistent character arcs where the characters actually do learn their lessons as the show goes on and shift their behaviors based on their experiences. Mariner becoming a little bit more responsible and Boimler becoming his own brand of badass are the two big examples.

I hope Tendi and Rutherford get more attention in the next season and I also really hope they meant to telegraph T'lyn joining the cast.

Wej duj is the best episode of Star Trek made in 20 years IMO. It was a great episode with great characters and a great plot that actually took the premise of the show and expanded it into something more than just a Star Trek comedy.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/20 12:05:57


Post by: Overread


Yeah series 1 was a bit hit and miss for Lower Decks and they kind of relied a bit too heavily on machine-gunning puns at you. Series 2 feels a lot more settled and like they know what they are doing now. It's a great mix of casual episodes and some longer story arcs and revelations.

It is indeed very Trek.

And because its a bit of a satire on Trek and a cartoon it gets away with doing some silly things and such without really feeling like its insulting ST or harming the lore or such.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/20 12:08:56


Post by: LordofHats


It helps that the cast and crew of Lower Decks are clearly loving what they're doing. You can always tell when people are enjoying their work. It shows in the work itself and heightens it.

I'd also say that while I watched Discovery and constantly felt like the people making it would rather be making Battlestar or The Expanse than Star Trek, I think the people making Lower Decks clearly have a love and appreciation for Star Trek. Their jabs, jokes, and gags feel like they're taking shots at something they love and are having fun with it, not an attempt to bash the franchise for its weak points or turn it into something entirely different.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/20 12:48:20


Post by: Overread


Agreed and they also just "get" the material they are working with.

Apparently it was a huge issue with Voyager in that the writer team were discouraged from being "geeky" with it and having fun and such and you can sort of tell that it wasn't as comfortable a setup as DS9 had. Heck some of DS9's best scenes are where the actors just ran with what they thought the characters should be doing and such.


But yeah it feels like since Voyager the writers for Star Trek live action and even films have been less and less "Trekkies" and more something else; or as you say they wanted to work on a different type of series but someone higher up said "no use Star Trek its got a fanbase"


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/20 13:57:56


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


With DS9 neatly setting up the Maquis, to see that complement of the crew just sort of…..fall in line, was disappointing and a missed opportunity. And poor old Ensign Kim. No promotions for you, because…erm……well just because.


In fact, by the time he gets back, he's outranked by the bartender that served his beer the day before he went to the Delta Quadrant.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/20 22:00:03


Post by: insaniak


trexmeyer wrote:
The only Star Trek show where the main character is absolutely the captain/CO would be DS9 and maybe TOS if only by virtue of TOS having a greatly reduced cast in comparison to the rest. I really feel like TNG focused more on "secondary" characters than it did on Picard. Sisko is the MC of DS9 not necessarily because he dominates episode appearances, but because he is the most crucial to the plot.

TOS focused heavily on the Big 3 above all, but TNG, DS9, and VOY all had large casts where many characters got significant attention.

Yeah, even with Sisko being so central to the overarching plot, the majority of episodes still tended to focus on other characters, and even when Sisko was the focus he still relied on the rest of the team to actually do stuff. He wasn't over in the Engineering section telling O'Brien how to rewire the inverse quantum flux capacitors...

Even TOS, with it's main focus on the Big 3 still gave each of them important things to do. Not every problem was solved by Kirk either kissing something or punching something...

Maybe DIS corrected that issue after S2, but I remember it being all Michael, all the time.

In Series 3, the writers did at least remember that other crew members existed and they tried to give them some meaningful things to do, but for the most part this still just set things up for Michael to come along and sort things out properly. The only other person who really got to have a functional impact on the story was Georgiou.

I think I've commented on this elsewhere but I was somewhat aghast when, in the midst of the Discovery bridge crew planning a daring escape and getting all team-worky on the bad-guys, I realised that it was the third season of the show and I still didn't know most of their names.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/20 22:21:56


Post by: AduroT


I still have no idea who most of them are, but I’m also really bad with names. Let’s see, Michael, Saru, Tilly, uuuhhhhh… Book… Namets? I think that’s all I got.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/21 00:09:04


Post by: Overread


Sisko is interesting because in many ways he's actually the most back-seat of all the captains within the narrative of the setting. There's a lot of episodes where he's very much like the head teacher at a school - he's there and important, but off doing something somewhere and thus everyone else has to pull weight in the day to day running of things.

However when he is there we get hit with huge events that really make him a very central character. It's in part due to really strong writing and in part due to really great acting.


In contrast Kirk, Picard, Janeway, the guy in Enterprise (I forget his name) - are all very central and appear as not just key characters, but often a or the key focal point for most episodes. Voyager did do a bit more stepping back than Original series of TNG, but in general even Janeway holds a good lions share of camera and story time.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/21 00:24:14


Post by: insaniak


I never got into Enterprise, but from the few episodes I did watch it seemed to have very much the same problem as Discovery has now, with the show being centered on Captain Archer and the rest of the crew being cardboard cutouts in the background.

Voyager I think did a reasonable job of spotlighting each of the crew in the earlier seasons. Once 7 of 9 came along it seemed to focus in more tightly, alternating between 7 and Janeway, and 7 and the Doctor.


Whither Star Trek? @ 1121/11/21 00:35:23


Post by: Overread


I think Enterprise started well, but the problem was they jumped into the whole Temporal War thing which I felt was just a story way for "we want to write a new war but don't actually want to change the setting's storyline so we'll just have a temporal one that ultimately means nothing" Which to me was unsatisfying because I always felt that Enterprise should have been a big quest to show us how the Federation got started; meeting key races; dealing with the fact that vulcans back there were near elf-like mythical creatures; that subtle elements of most races backgrounds were unknown (even within allies of the Federation). They had that in buckets in the first season, but it seems that they didn't intend to maintain it.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/21 02:42:05


Post by: Voss


 Overread wrote:
Sisko is interesting because in many ways he's actually the most back-seat of all the captains within the narrative of the setting. There's a lot of episodes where he's very much like the head teacher at a school - he's there and important, but off doing something somewhere and thus everyone else has to pull weight in the day to day running of things.

However when he is there we get hit with huge events that really make him a very central character. It's in part due to really strong writing and in part due to really great acting.


In contrast Kirk, Picard, Janeway, the guy in Enterprise (I forget his name) - are all very central and appear as not just key characters, but often a or the key focal point for most episodes. Voyager did do a bit more stepping back than Original series of TNG, but in general even Janeway holds a good lions share of camera and story time.


Well, there were so many versions of Janeway throughout any given season. They had to keep the camera coming back to her to show which personality was in charge that week.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/21 03:02:40


Post by: LordofHats


insaniak wrote:I never got into Enterprise, but from the few episodes I did watch it seemed to have very much the same problem as Discovery has now, with the show being centered on Captain Archer and the rest of the crew being cardboard cutouts in the background.


Archer, Tucker, and T'Pol were more or less the center of everything while the rest of the crew felt like hangers-on.

Hoshi had an extra serving of suck because early seasons portrayed her as riddled with phobias and hang-ups that made it really questionable that she was on the crew at all (latter season basically dumped these traits without comment). Travis maybe had it even worse than Harry Kim as a character with a lot of potential who just never really got to do much of anything. Phlox had a few good episodes, but was otherwise a deus-ex machine who would solve most of the crisises of the week on a timer or ensure no one died of whatever was going on. Reed was appropriately characterized as this enigmatic figure no one knew much about cause we never learned much of anything about him.

Overread wrote:I think Enterprise started well, but the problem was they jumped into the whole Temporal War thing which I felt was just a story way for "we want to write a new war but don't actually want to change the setting's storyline so we'll just have a temporal one that ultimately means nothing"


I've been rewatching it the past few weeks, and honestly, the Temporal Cold War is probably the least problematic part of the series. If anything, it's biggest issue is how little it impacts events outside of episodes explicitly about it. It only rears its head when the time comes to rear its head when it really should be having broader impacts.

The bigger problem is that the writing just isn't good. Example, The Communicator. In the episode, one of the characters forgets their communicator on a pre-warp planet on the brink of civil war. It's a good premise. They go back and get caught and have to struggle with what to say or do in response, what would cause more damage to these people? Well, I have at least one idea of what could cause more damage; claiming your a genetically engineered supersoldier created by an enemy nation with prototype particle weapons and stealth systems... Seriously wtf how is that better than just admitting the truth? It's such a boneheaded decision that it boggles the mind and a lot of episodes of Enterprise are kind of like that. They start off with a cool idea or premise, but then they shoot themselves in the head by having the characters do the potentially dumbest thing possible.

Which to me was unsatisfying because I always felt that Enterprise should have been a big quest to show us how the Federation got started;


Agreed, and the episodes along this line were some of the show's best. The conflict between the Andorians and the Vulcans and the role humanity plays in forming a glue that holds multiple disparate species together was exactly what Enterprise should have been about. The birth of the Federation. The show was clearly moving in that direction, and by season 4 was setting up for the Earth-Romulan War (one of the events that helped ferment the Federation's creation) but it got canceled cause it was too little too late by then.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/21 23:54:51


Post by: hotsauceman1


So apparently nothing is going to be behind the anomaly this season.
It's supposed to be an allegory for a pandemic and what we will see is people dealing with it in good and bad ways


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/22 00:19:56


Post by: Voss


Its always a good sign when they have to explain what the allegory is beforehand.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/11/22 00:52:38


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So apparently nothing is going to be behind the anomaly this season.
It's supposed to be an allegory for a pandemic and what we will see is people dealing with it in good and bad ways


That feeling of hopelessness with no solution or resolution is what I come to fiction for.


No wait.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/07 03:00:52


Post by: Togusa


So I finally bit the bullet and procured a copy of Picard to watch.

All I can say is wow. I after giving STD a chance for three seasons, I said to a friend "Well, it can't get any worse than this."

I was so very, very wrong.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/07 05:00:58


Post by: trexmeyer


A thought.

Star Trek was a show that benefited greatly from having B and C plots with TNG, DS9, and VOY. TOS kind of predates the A/B+ plotlines in tv shows. Those three series all were semi-serial at most as well so that and having 20+ episodes a year meant that they could focus on secondary plotlines and thus the crew extensively. In this new world of 8-12 episode long seasons where everything is heavily serialized you can't necessarily afford to spend time on secondary plotlines that don't tie into the primary threads, but I would dare to say that it is those elements that give a series its flavor.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/07 05:27:27


Post by: LordofHats


There's lots of shows that still have B and C plots. I'd say the big issue with Discovery and Picard on that front is their overwhelming focus on spectacle with no substance. There's no time to build characters when everything is simply building to the next setpiece, but even the setpieces aren't that good. I can't think of any that don't become the subject of a dozen youtube videos lampooning how low effort they are or little sense they make.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/07 10:23:22


Post by: Togusa


 LordofHats wrote:
There's lots of shows that still have B and C plots. I'd say the big issue with Discovery and Picard on that front is their overwhelming focus on spectacle with no substance. There's no time to build characters when everything is simply building to the next setpiece, but even the setpieces aren't that good. I can't think of any that don't become the subject of a dozen youtube videos lampooning how low effort they are or little sense they make.


Consider that Riker shows up (on your left) in the end of Picard Season one with 200 ctrl+v silly looking "star ships" in a scene that literally looks almost identical to the one in Star Wars where lando shows up (on you left) with 200 random starships, in a scene that was very reminiscent of Falcon bringing all the heros (on your left) to fight Thanos.

It's all about money. They want a billion dollar blockbuster IP just like all these other shows and they don't care how it's done.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/08 00:19:04


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 Togusa wrote:


It's all about money. They want a billion dollar blockbuster IP just like all these other shows and they don't care how it's done.


I think this statement is definitely true (and not just of this IP), but would it be safe to say that for THIS IP in particular, the "safe" play is to not play it safe?

I mean, ITT we have mention of all the on/over the edge stuff that trek producers have put into previous series that were major gambles, and the fans absolutely LOVE it. Of course, there are some risks that weren't great (Neelix, looking at you), or things that seemed like risks, but if you dig into it, really was the safest play to make, and thus it gets kinda washed up among all the other stuff available.



Like, I thought Disco, at first glance, coulda been one of those major gambles: just what does the Federation at war look like, on screen? (I mean, much of the dominion war happened off screen in DS9, so you don't really deal with the tip of the spear stuff that often). There really was a ton of stuff on offer, opportunities to explore darker themes that Trek rarely deals with. But we seemingly get "Deux ex Wesley" in every episode, or every other episode in the form of Burnham.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/08 00:22:37


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


A real risk would be a show entirely composed of B and C plots. Like, only show us the space battle via explosions outside the window behind the doctor’s jazz recital.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/08 00:32:25


Post by: LordofHats


I think that was part of the appeal of the Lower Decks premise, and while the series does have bits of that, truthfully it is in many ways balanced more like a traditional Trek show than the TNG episode from which it takes its name.

While I enjoy the animated series, I do think a more faithful to the premise series could be very good. No fate of the universe stuff, or even fate of the ship. Just make Star Trek: The Office, where it's a bunch of officers fulfilling their mundane tasks and all the stuff in between and occasionally the lights turn red and stuff starts exploding;




But Star Trek.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/08 12:48:17


Post by: Overread


See I think that could work and shows like the Office or Parks and Recreation show that not everything has to be saving the universe or anything.

I think the problem is that too many, esp in sci-fi/fantasy - get hooked on the idea that the challenge has to keep rising and rising. As a result you quickly go from a group saving a village now and then to suddenly saving all creation. The problem is once you do that saving all creation storyline you can't really follow it up very easily. Going back to saving villages feels like a step back; whilst if you try and push forward suddenly you're saving all creation and the multiverse then the multi-multivers and then you get into saving all time and - yeah things just keep going up and up and the higher up it goes the more convoluted the story becomes


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/08 14:11:33


Post by: AduroT


Pretty much the story arc of Supernatural’s decade long run there.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2043/10/26 13:46:14


Post by: Overread


I only left out the lack of character evolution

Don't get me wrong its a nice series but about where god and the devil are having arguments over loud music in a secret bunker was kinda where it felt like the writers had utterly no clue what they were doing and were just winging it. They really should have done the Wizard of OZ Spin-Off series!

But yeah Supernatural is a prime example of where the threat gets more and more insane each time and the more insane it got the more you had to suspend disbelief until at some point the writing starts to not matter.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/09 21:02:42


Post by: bbb


 Overread wrote:
See I think that could work and shows like the Office or Parks and Recreation show that not everything has to be saving the universe or anything.

I think the problem is that too many, esp in sci-fi/fantasy - get hooked on the idea that the challenge has to keep rising and rising. As a result you quickly go from a group saving a village now and then to suddenly saving all creation. The problem is once you do that saving all creation storyline you can't really follow it up very easily. Going back to saving villages feels like a step back; whilst if you try and push forward suddenly you're saving all creation and the multiverse then the multi-multivers and then you get into saving all time and - yeah things just keep going up and up and the higher up it goes the more convoluted the story becomes


Basically what happened to Stargate.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2016/12/07 22:37:07


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I think it both hurt and helped Stargate. The show never took itself overly seriously, and by the last two seasons they were nearly at Team Four Star levels of self-aware mockery…at least in the good episodes. They also started to rely on almost sitcom levels of bouncing actors off each other and special guest stars in wacky situations. I find that much more agreeable than the misery-porn serious-drama Buffy tried to become in its last two seasons.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/09 22:30:26


Post by: Flinty


But Buffy had that musical episode that was just ace

(They got the mustard out!)


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/09 22:32:47


Post by: Overread


 Flinty wrote:
But Buffy had that musical episode that was just ace

(They got the mustard out!)





Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/10 00:19:16


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Flinty wrote:
But Buffy had that musical episode that was just ace

(They got the mustard out!)


It was the best episode of the season. It was also pretty damn miserable. All the characters get to sing about how they wish they were dead (metaphorically and sometimes literally).


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/10 07:54:02


Post by: Jadenim


Tara doesn’t. Poor Tara…


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/10 08:21:19


Post by: AduroT


So, Star Trek! This week’s episode of Discovery. Not-Vulkan is set to rejoin the Federation. Not-Vulkan president finds out her political backers are going to require special exemptions if they’re going to allow her to join up. She secretly sends a message to the Federation President warning her about this ambush at their meeting. Federation President knows her political backers won’t allow this special exemption. Lies to Burnam to get her to come, with orders she’s just supposed to stand there and look official, because she knows Burnam will promptly ignore her orders and interfere to try and fix the situation, which she of course does. After much round a bout cajoling, because Fed Pres continues to refuse to tell Burnam the truth about what’s going on, and a bunch of flirting between Saru and the Not-Vulkan Pres, they eventually decide only Burnam can save this. She alone can act as a special mediator between the Not-Vulkans and the Federation because she comes from Not-Vulkan nine hundred years ago when it was still Vulkan so she can be non-biased despite the fact she’s been incredibly pro Federation this entire episode insisting Not-Vulkan needed to join.

Meanwhile Tilly gets to be a special guest teacher for some Cadets on a routine scanning mission. Their shuttle is hit by a random gamma wave, crashes, and the pilot dies in her arms. They’re chased by monsters who are immune to phasers and just barely get saved at the last second. She decides this was a rewarding experience and quits Discovery to go teach full time.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/10 08:39:07


Post by: Mr Morden


they eventually decide only Burnam can save this


Every episode of Discovery could simply have this as a synopsis


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
But Buffy had that musical episode that was just ace

(They got the mustard out!)


It was the best episode of the season. It was also pretty damn miserable. All the characters get to sing about how they wish they were dead (metaphorically and sometimes literally).


Its an awesome episode woth some really good songs - IIRC Dawn, Anya and Xander don't want to die....nor does Giles - Buffy just wants to go back to heaven

Stargate once they hit their stride is so good - sad that it ended with the rubbish that was Universe.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/10 18:08:43


Post by: AegisFate


 Mr Morden wrote:

Stargate once they hit their stride is so good - sad that it ended with the rubbish that was Universe.


Honestly though, Universe once it got past trying to be a drama about people back home really got its stride. It definitely was going in the right place in season 2 at least


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/10 23:53:08


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Jadenim wrote:
Tara doesn’t. Poor Tara…


Tara’s first song: Willow, you’re the only good thing in my horrible, horrible life.

Tara’s second song: Willow, you’re a monster I need to escape.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. Morden, Dawn doesn’t get a song that I remember, other than her “I don’t want to be a forcible child bride duet.” Anya and Xander get their “the characters you love get nothing, and you will watch them suffer” appetizer song, and the series fully follows through in the threat to ruin two of the most fun characters. Giles sings about how he has to ruin his relationship with Buffy because she needs her second father figure to abandon her so she can grow up or something, his “This will hurt me more than it hurts you” song.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/11 03:51:58


Post by: BlackoCatto


It's odd that anyone that disagrees with the main characters instantly dies


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/11 04:22:50


Post by: LordofHats


 BlackoCatto wrote:
It's odd that anyone that disagrees with the main characters instantly dies


My favorite part of season 1 is when Lorca's who-cares-what-her-name-was security officer (or whatever she was) gets herself killed in the most dumbfeth way possible, just so Burnham could look intelligent by virtue of not being suicidally stupid.

It actually beat out Tucker's death at the end of Enterprise for the 'death so utterly pointless and nonsensical the only explanation is the writers really wanted to kill someone for the hell of it' award.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/11 15:27:13


Post by: warboss


 LordofHats wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
It's odd that anyone that disagrees with the main characters instantly dies


My favorite part of season 1 is when Lorca's who-cares-what-her-name-was security officer (or whatever she was) gets herself killed in the most dumbfeth way possible, just so Burnham could look intelligent by virtue of not being suicidally stupid.

It actually beat out Tucker's death at the end of Enterprise for the 'death so utterly pointless and nonsensical the only explanation is the writers really wanted to kill someone for the hell of it' award.


I don't know what you're talking about. Enterprise ended with the good episode Terra Prime and nothing more came afterwards. Stop spreading rumors!!!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/11 15:48:27


Post by: LordofHats


My headcannon is that lower deck's effectively retcons the entire episode except for Riker visiting the records from time to time


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/11 17:54:49


Post by: warboss


I never watched Lower Decks to any real degree. I got about ten minutes into the first episode during the free preview and noped out. It wasn't for me though I could see why others might like it and the love of trek that went into it unlike with STD and Picard.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/12 03:25:36


Post by: BlackoCatto


That one guy in season 2's opening episode.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/30 15:47:08


Post by: Togusa


Just a headsup to any who cares but all ST will be off Hulu/Netflix in less than a week. Moving to Paramount +


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/30 16:05:47


Post by: warboss


Anyone watching Season 4 of STD? If you weren't a fan of the first three seasons, did this one change your mind? Did Burnham grow her braids? (the TNG equivalent of Riker's beard)



Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/30 17:04:26


Post by: AduroT


It’s mostly more of the same. Only Michael can fix things, giving inspirational speeches, making decisions that make no logical sense, etc. Giant thing that threatens everyone, which they said at the beginning was supposed to be entirely random and not caused by anyone to represent a sort of pandemic type thing, but which we learned a couple episodes ago was actually created by a new alien race.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/30 17:37:20


Post by: hotsauceman1


 warboss wrote:
Anyone watching Season 4 of STD? If you weren't a fan of the first three seasons, did this one change your mind? Did Burnham grow her braids? (the TNG equivalent of Riker's beard)


This is how i explain STD s4
The crew gets therapy.
The Captain Gets Therapy
The Captains live-on ship boyfriend gets therapy
The Therapist Gets Therapy
The Ship gets therapy.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/30 18:14:14


Post by: Kale


I love that the floating text from the glossary insists that STD is either 'slaves to darkness' or a 'sexually transmitted disease'!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/30 19:36:06


Post by: warboss


It doesn't sound like I'm missing much then given my prior dislike. This season I haven't even bothered following the episode recaps on youtube to see if I might change my mind.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 12:10:27


Post by: Vulcan


 Togusa wrote:
Just a headsup to any who cares but all ST will be off Hulu/Netflix in less than a week. Moving to Paramount +


And people call me foolish for buying physical copies of media instead of just streaming it.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 12:42:39


Post by: Overread


 Vulcan wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Just a headsup to any who cares but all ST will be off Hulu/Netflix in less than a week. Moving to Paramount +


And people call me foolish for buying physical copies of media instead of just streaming it.


And as streaming becomes the norm physical media will go the way of the dodo - extinct save for a few rare stuffed species that are stuffed fill of deluxe content and thus cost ten times the price and are made in limited volume


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 13:35:14


Post by: warboss


 Togusa wrote:
Just a headsup to any who cares but all ST will be off Hulu/Netflix in less than a week. Moving to Paramount +


I wonder if Amazon Prime will be next...probably. I assume this means classic trek too?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 14:16:29


Post by: LordofHats


Amazon has a deal with Paramount+ so it the shows might stay there but behind the additional payway.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 14:54:55


Post by: Mr Morden


 Overread wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Just a headsup to any who cares but all ST will be off Hulu/Netflix in less than a week. Moving to Paramount +


And people call me foolish for buying physical copies of media instead of just streaming it.


And as streaming becomes the norm physical media will go the way of the dodo - extinct save for a few rare stuffed species that are stuffed fill of deluxe content and thus cost ten times the price and are made in limited volume


I thought old fashioned records were increasingly popular?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 14:57:17


Post by: LordofHats


Vinyl records have had a serious comeback. I wouldn't assume all old-school media will experience the same. Beta is still something people crack jokes about.

I do think it's overwrought to claim digital and streaming will wipe out all physical media. I don't think that'll happen, but it will push physical media in niches as streamed content becomes the norm.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 15:21:06


Post by: Overread


Yep digital streaming one kill the physical media, films still pump out a lot of DVD/Blurays. However what I see might happen is that the middle-weight stuff (both series and films) that start to come out on streaming services might bypass physical products entirely.


At least for a time until some smart firm works out a way to make it profitable for them.

So we might well go through a time where there are certain shows and films that you can only get on specific streaming services and not outside of them.



Now what we could see happen more and more is the idea of digital ownership; so you can pay to buy a series, however with how DRM the media industry is in general that would still likely be like Amazon Prime - you'd be tied to online and tied to your account. So like buying a video game from Steam. With the main difference being that, again, its going to be spread out over multiple services.





Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 16:47:18


Post by: Togusa


 AduroT wrote:
It’s mostly more of the same. Only Michael can fix things, giving inspirational speeches, making decisions that make no logical sense, etc. Giant thing that threatens everyone, which they said at the beginning was supposed to be entirely random and not caused by anyone to represent a sort of pandemic type thing, but which we learned a couple episodes ago was actually created by a new alien race.


Well said.

No, I'd say if anything S4 finally put the nail in the coffin of it for me. I won't bother watching anymore of it if they continue on to S5.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 16:52:42


Post by: AduroT


I’ll keep watching. It’s Really dumb, but it’s a Just entertaining enough kind of dumb.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 18:09:48


Post by: warboss


 AduroT wrote:
I’ll keep watching. It’s Really dumb, but it’s a Just entertaining enough kind of dumb.


It's ok that you have the hots for Tilly. Or Saru. Whatever. No shame in that!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 18:25:21


Post by: AduroT


Tilly is gone for now. Saru’s hooking up with the Vulkan President.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 18:28:33


Post by: warboss


I can't tell if you're joking. I only know that Michael Burnham is the only one that can save us from the horrific galactic reprecussions of both.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2021/12/31 20:37:07


Post by: hotsauceman1


IT seems Gray is gone, which IMO is good, he kinda dragged things down and didnt make sense.
There are so many stories to tell especially with a young couple(Imagine is Gray felt resentment that Adira got the symbiote that was supposed to be his)
But it really does seem like they want to project this idea of "Perfect young couple" with them.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/01 02:01:27


Post by: Vulcan


 Overread wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Just a headsup to any who cares but all ST will be off Hulu/Netflix in less than a week. Moving to Paramount +


And people call me foolish for buying physical copies of media instead of just streaming it.


And as streaming becomes the norm physical media will go the way of the dodo - extinct save for a few rare stuffed species that are stuffed fill of deluxe content and thus cost ten times the price and are made in limited volume


Doesn't make what I've already purchased stop working.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/01 02:50:38


Post by: Overread


Not at all, but it makes it harder to keep up with new things.


Again we aren't quite there yet, but there's already a good few series that appear on streamer services that don't have a physical release. Even some popular ones won't to keep people going to the streaming service.


Again I'm not arguing against physical media - heck I get almost all my music in CD form unless its from something like a Groupees music bundle - however at the same time I respect that getting everything in physical form right now both costs more and will get increasingly tricky.

Just look at computer games; a large number now don't have physical releases from smaller developers on PC. Of those that we do get a great many are just a physical "activate on steam" situation.




Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/01 14:45:12


Post by: LordofHats


So this is kind of neat.

Apparently, DIsco S4 contains references to Star Trek Online.

One episode references Risa having Caracals, pets you can gain during STO's summer events. To my knowledge, no other piece of Star Trek media contains that information (it's certainly not from any of the shows).

More telling though, one episode references survivors of the Iconian Empire. That can't be anything but a reference to STO's Iconian War storyline.

Awhile back the developers at Cryptic were saying they were in talks with the producers of Disco about storylines so they could coordinate game tie-ins (shocking, Disco content in STO isn't awful, mostly because a certain someone isn't anywhere to be seen...). They vaguely mentioned that there might be canonizing of some of STO's plot in the vaguest sense and it looks like that panned out.

The Iconians surviving into the future is now alpha canon, and STO players can pretend that means the Iconian War is canon too XD


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/01 15:16:47


Post by: AduroT


They’ve had the Strong Picard reference as well with them using the synth tech from that show to build someone a new body.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/02 01:40:58


Post by: Vulcan


 Overread wrote:
Not at all, but it makes it harder to keep up with new things.


Again we aren't quite there yet, but there's already a good few series that appear on streamer services that don't have a physical release. Even some popular ones won't to keep people going to the streaming service.


Again I'm not arguing against physical media - heck I get almost all my music in CD form unless its from something like a Groupees music bundle - however at the same time I respect that getting everything in physical form right now both costs more and will get increasingly tricky.

Just look at computer games; a large number now don't have physical releases from smaller developers on PC. Of those that we do get a great many are just a physical "activate on steam" situation.




True, true. Although I have to say most of what's coming out now is not to my taste, so I'm not overly worried about never having a physical copy of it.

The amount of older stuff available on physical media is still increasing fast. Heck, I just picked up MASH on DVD. The whole series. What in the past decade compares to that? Lost? Game of Thrones? BSG reboot? Given the way they all ended? Ugh.

YMMV, of course. If you liked them, more power to you. Just not to my taste, that's all.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/02 14:15:21


Post by: lord_blackfang


I wanted to order a video game soundtrack on vinyl for a hipster friend and it got sold out in the preorder phase.

But I think physical is moving more and more into just overpriced collectibles while mainstream consumers are expected (and expect) to buy digital.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/02 14:34:04


Post by: AduroT


There’s a distinct possibility I have a couple books on my shelf I got just because they look really cool. One of them I had read the free digital version before purchasing the physical copy, though I did then reread it via the new physical version. The other I not have yet read, and will mostly likely end up listening to the audio book rather than read the physical.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/02 14:37:37


Post by: Overread


 AduroT wrote:
There’s a distinct possibility I have a couple books on my shelf I got just because they look really cool. One of them I had read the free digital version before purchasing the physical copy, though I did then reread it via the new physical version. The other I not have yet read, and will mostly likely end up listening to the audio book rather than read the physical.


I've done that with a few comics - the big downside is that volumes/books of comics tend to be really rather rubbish for duel page spreads (so much lost to the spine) and can be insanely thick to the point of being "nearly" unreadable. Or at least not as easily read.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/02 16:39:59


Post by: warboss


I thought this might be over soon but I just looked at IMDB and it's going until March. I think newer streaming shows with their paltry 6-8 episodes per "season" have lowered my expectations even further than the dozen or so from earlier streaming shows (and obviously down from 20+ on traditional TV like classic trek).


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/02 17:09:17


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 AduroT wrote:
There’s a distinct possibility I have a couple books on my shelf I got just because they look really cool. One of them I had read the free digital version before purchasing the physical copy, though I did then reread it via the new physical version. The other I not have yet read, and will mostly likely end up listening to the audio book rather than read the physical.



One thing to consider in this situation is that it is entirely possible that the artist/author possibly made more working money off of the physical book you purchased rather than however the media platform pays them for you DL-ing/reading the "free" version. Its been a long-term trend in the "culture media producing" world (ie, music and book producing industries) where the publisher has been taking more and more of the cover price in profits, and the artists themselves get less and less (unrelated to this topic, but its why you're seeing more bands doing a ton of VEVO music videos, pandora/streaming, albums, non-stop tours, more and more merch, etc. . . they need to do it to survive, not out of fan service). I forgot where I read it, but a couple years back, I saw an article discussing the pay rates in various novel publishing houses, and how many copies it takes to "make a living" so to speak. It definitely raised some eyebrows, how much things have shifted and changed in favor of the publisher.



It does make me wonder if, part of the reason we are seeing fewer physical copies of video media is for a similar reason: to deprive actors of the revenue stream/payout that presents, and ultimately push them into more front-loaded contracts where they are making their money off of initial airing/releases, rather than through physical media sales?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/02 17:14:14


Post by: Overread


It's also likely because it helps cut costs. If you don't have to produce, ship and sell things like DVDs whilst you're at the same time running a streaming platform - which you have to pay for anyway - then you're cutting costs. Even more so if the steaming platform can generate more profit from more people.

Eg not everyone buys a film a month, but if you have a subscription that's 12 payments a year from you. Without considering any additional purchases you might make within the streaming service itself.



Also don't forget many of these newer streaming services don't have big contracts with DVD/Bluray producers. Chances are many of the big industries, like Hollywood, will keep pumping out the physical media; but newer and smaller names just won't have those contracts and might not have enough customers or projected sales to make them worth the physical media makers investment into them, when they can just invest into another blockbuster from Hollywood.



It's a bit of the same issue GW had for a time - Space Marines sold the best and everything was compared to a marine. As a result they started pushing them more and more and any line or thing that wasn't up to standard was being steadily dropped/removed/less invested into. Because the Marine gave greater return on investment.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/02 17:33:09


Post by: AduroT


Oh yeah, the book id read online before buying was absolutely done in big part to support an artist whose stuff I like. The fact it’s got a cool cover worth displaying is a pretty good bonus and tipping point.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/03 01:48:02


Post by: Vulcan


 AduroT wrote:
There’s a distinct possibility I have a couple books on my shelf I got just because they look really cool. One of them I had read the free digital version before purchasing the physical copy, though I did then reread it via the new physical version. The other I not have yet read, and will mostly likely end up listening to the audio book rather than read the physical.


I need hardcopies to read, I really can't read a book off a screen. That's just me, though.

As much as anything else, for me it's about control. If I have a physical copy, it's mine. I can watch it whenever, for as long as the media lasts. For DVDs and CDs that's probably limited more by the players than by the discs. If someone decides to take the media down off the download or streaming sites, I still have my physical copy. If my device crashes, I still have my physical copy.

Sure, there are circumstances where we might lose the physcial copy (a fire comes to mnd) but that seems like the lesser risk to me.

Perhaps we should move this to it's own thread rather than continue de-railing the Star Trek thread?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/10 04:51:39


Post by: hotsauceman1


Idk if anyone saw the new prodigy but it involves to Kobiyashi Maru.
Dal has a Holo Crew of previous characters like Spock, Odo and much others
The problem is,cthet didn't get impersonators or the actors for those they use old audio of them, bit didn't clean it up.
So Spock is having a heart to heart with Dal but it's all old dialogue recorded at different qualities.
Really awkward.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/10 06:09:30


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


“Logic would dictate that. Her. Sweet. Can. Is turning. Me. On. Her. Swee-swee-swee-sweet. can. Jimminy Jillikers! Keep the change ya filthy animal.”


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/10 07:58:51


Post by: AduroT


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Idk if anyone saw the new prodigy but it involves to Kobiyashi Maru.
Dal has a Holo Crew of previous characters like Spock, Odo and much others
The problem is,cthet didn't get impersonators or the actors for those they use old audio of them, bit didn't clean it up.
So Spock is having a heart to heart with Dal but it's all old dialogue recorded at different qualities.
Really awkward.


I thought it was an interesting effort. Three of those characters were dead actors, they had a memorial line for them at the end. Kind of makes the heart to heart work because it was his own words still, but yeah, the audio quality was definitely weird.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/10 09:07:25


Post by: ccs


 Overread wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Just a headsup to any who cares but all ST will be off Hulu/Netflix in less than a week. Moving to Paramount +


And people call me foolish for buying physical copies of media instead of just streaming it.


And as streaming becomes the norm physical media will go the way of the dodo - extinct save for a few rare stuffed species that are stuffed fill of deluxe content and thus cost ten times the price and are made in limited volume


I'm fine with pirated copies of sometimes questionable quality.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/10 09:23:42


Post by: beast_gts


 AduroT wrote:
I thought it was an interesting effort. Three of those characters were dead actors, they had a memorial line for them at the end. Kind of makes the heart to heart work because it was his own words still, but yeah, the audio quality was definitely weird.
Yeah, it was a good effort. The audio & animation could have been more polished but it did the job. I though Odo was a bit out of place but it made sense for a memorial episode.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/10 10:51:18


Post by: AduroT


Odo was fairly out of place, because while he makes a notable security officer, he also wasn’t Star Fleet.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/10 11:21:33


Post by: LordofHats


I thought the scene was fairly enjoyable and didn't get too hung up on the awkward lines. It fit with what was going on.

Honestly, I was kind of impressed. The show handle the Kobayashi Maru way better than the fir JJ film IMO. It was humorous and Dal's solution of just being utterly chaotic works as a solution to the test.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/10 16:16:08


Post by: hotsauceman1


 AduroT wrote:
Odo was fairly out of place, because while he makes a notable security officer, he also wasn’t Star Fleet.

It cause he said 'get me the best' and not the best starfleet.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/19 16:05:50


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Picard season Q releases 3 March.

Airing on Amazon Prime in the U.K., which is nice.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/19 20:29:09


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Picard season Q releases 3 March.

Airing on Amazon Prime in the U.K., which is nice.


One last jolly for Sir Picard, even if its as uneven as S1 it'll thump Disco (last clip i saw was dfsj stamping her feat at some Trill because she knows better than 100(0?)'s of years of a culture that lost more to the Burn than most...)


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/21 13:11:29


Post by: Mr Morden


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Picard season Q releases 3 March.

Airing on Amazon Prime in the U.K., which is nice.


One last jolly for Sir Picard, even if its as uneven as S1 it'll thump Disco (last clip i saw was dfsj stamping her feat at some Trill because she knows better than 100(0?)'s of years of a culture that lost more to the Burn than most...)


I def give it a try - enjoyed season 1 alot (apart from the dire last epsiode)

Agreed re Discovery - personally I gave up on that since its (IMO) just badly written fan fiction about one person being god and worshiped by everyone.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/21 18:39:07


Post by: beast_gts


New Picard Trailer - bit.ly/Picard2Trailer


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/21 19:25:39


Post by: AduroT


For those who don’t want to turn off their Adblock.




Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/21 21:38:09


Post by: bbb


It feels weird to me that Q cares about interacting with a copy of Picard's mind in a fake Picard body. I'd think he'd be pretty antagonistic. "You don't really think you're Jean-Luc, do you?"


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/21 22:16:55


Post by: AduroT


He still might be, we’ve barely seen their interactions.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/21 23:41:04


Post by: beast_gts


If they include the Bell Riots (which it seems to) - will there be a Sisko cameo?

(Also, pay close attention to the address of Guinan's bar...)


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/22 07:15:39


Post by: AduroT


Without going back and rewatching the trailer… is it 104, or something thereabouts?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/22 10:01:22


Post by: beast_gts


 AduroT wrote:
Without going back and rewatching the trailer… is it 104, or something thereabouts?


Spoiler:
Number 10, Forward Avenue


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/24 14:34:37


Post by: Frazzled


 AduroT wrote:
For those who don’t want to turn off their Adblock.




Well... that preview looked pretty fun actually.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/25 02:40:13


Post by: leerm02


I just wanted to jump on here and say that this is my new favorite thread on all of Dakka. You guys rock! Keep on rocking!

Also: I just finished reading this whole thread and wholly agree with SO MUCH of it! I actually read a lot of your posts out loud to my (probably very annoyed) wife!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/25 02:48:42


Post by: Voss


 bbb wrote:
It feels weird to me that Q cares about interacting with a copy of Picard's mind in a fake Picard body. I'd think he'd be pretty antagonistic. "You don't really think you're Jean-Luc, do you?"

In a fake timeline no less.
It seems excessively self-indulgent (even compared to season 1)


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/01/25 11:48:02


Post by: LordofHats


Voss wrote:
 bbb wrote:
It feels weird to me that Q cares about interacting with a copy of Picard's mind in a fake Picard body. I'd think he'd be pretty antagonistic. "You don't really think you're Jean-Luc, do you?"

In a fake timeline no less.
It seems excessively self-indulgent (even compared to season 1)


Self-indulgent is fine when you can back it up.

Problem is that season 1 couldn't back it up and I have little hope for season 2.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/03 19:10:39


Post by: hotsauceman1


Despite completely distancing itself from Star Trek, Prodigy is 100% better then most of current treks offering and feels like the most like Trek with it's themes.
Seriously so good


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/03 21:27:22


Post by: LordofHats


Prodigy has been very enjoyable so far. I can see someone who doesn't want a kids cartoon not liking it but honestly for what it is it's easily the best new piece of Star Trek media we've gotten. It's legitimately fun to watch.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/04 06:37:07


Post by: AduroT


I prefer Lower Decks to Prodigy, but yeah, it’s some pretty good Trek for a show that almost completely abandons your typical Trek settings. I was even a little surprised when a Ferengi showed up. Being a kids show will definitely turn some people off though. I was describing it to a friend and when I said the crew was six kids he immediately noped right out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And speaking of Prodigy, that was a pretty good (mid season?) finale. Wraps up some stuff quite nicely while still dangling hooks for the future. I thought it was supposed to be the season finale, but a couple review sites were calling it the mid season finale so I’m not sure if we’re to expect more before the already confirmed second season.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/04 11:33:26


Post by: LordofHats


There's 10 more episodes for later this year.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/15 23:19:31


Post by: beast_gts


Next Kelvin-verse movie is still happening:

startrek.com wrote:Update, 02/15/2022: During the ViacomCBS Investor’s Day presentation today, producer J.J. Abrams shared a small update on the upcoming film. “We are thrilled to say that we are hard at work on a new Star Trek film that we’ll be shooting by the end of the year, featuring our original cast and some new characters that I think are going to be really fun and exciting, and help take Star Trek into areas that you’ve just never seen before.” said Abrams.

Matt Shakman, who was recently nominated for an Emmy for his work directing WandaVision, is beaming into the Star Trek universe. He'll be directing the upcoming Untitled Star Trek Project for Paramount Pictures, with a script written by Lindsey Beer and Geneva Robertson. J.J. Abrams, who helmed both Star Trek (2009) and Star Trek Into Darkness and produced Star Trek Beyond, will be returning as a producer.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/15 23:23:34


Post by: creeping-deth87


As someone who really digs the Kelvin-verse films, and loved Wandavision, that's some really great news.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/15 23:23:52


Post by: warboss


I suppose that's good news for some. For me, eh. I enjoyed the first JJTrek film as a shoot'em up scifi film but not as Trek.. and it only went downhill from there in terms of quality. YMMV. It sure doesn't help that I think all the steaming trek I've seen (current up until Picard S1) is even worse.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/15 23:24:25


Post by: LordofHats


Welp, suppose we'll see how that goes. If the pattern is anything it'll be terrible XD

That said, I'm kind of glad they want to try again? 09 was contentious but not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. Into Darkness hasn't aged well and it wasn't good to begin with. Beyond was actually pretty fun if nothing else and felt like a lot of the cast had finally found their footing in their characters.

Here's hoping it's more Lower Decks or Prodigy than Discover or Picard *toasts*


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/16 01:52:06


Post by: bbb


They need to shake things up. This movie should have them exploring the depths of an ocean on an alien world. Maybe get into a submarine style battle against another underwater starship too.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/16 03:45:48


Post by: Just Tony


About.


Damned.


Time.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/23 21:17:12


Post by: creeping-deth87




Um... wow. Not sure what else to say. Hopefully they get everyone on board?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/23 21:56:11


Post by: warboss


Clearly they have a Burnham-level brain orchestrating everything behind the scenes. They're probably crying about as much too.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/24 03:34:39


Post by: LordofHats


Of all the feth ups, that would seem to be the most easily avoided feth up XD


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/24 08:03:04


Post by: ccs




Well. That's a different approach to doing things.
On the + side? Nobody should be surprised by failure.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/24 18:43:47


Post by: leerm02


OMG! That is such a hot-mess!

You know, I USED to be a big star-trek fan... these days, it seems like Trek is being entirely run by people too incompetent to graduate from clown college!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/24 18:57:52


Post by: Overread


I feel like its actually split between two distinct groups. One group are making things like Picard and Below Decks. Clearly not just fans but also people who "get" ST in a classic sense. Whilst shows like Picard are willing to go to different places, they aim to retain a sense of the original.


Mean whlie you've another team who are busy making things like Discovery and the reboot films who aren't really making classic Star Trek. They are more making their own kind of sci-fi but within the structure of Trek. So we've got names, places, themes and concepts but the story style, the presentation, the nature of the action and all are very much "not trek." from the past. They are less an evolution and more a total reimagining.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/24 19:28:59


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


In what way did Picard retain a sense of the original Star Trek?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/24 21:41:06


Post by: hotsauceman1


Kinda.
It did understand Picard quite a bit as a captain constantly wracked with guilt


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/24 22:36:05


Post by: Overread


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
In what way did Picard retain a sense of the original Star Trek?


Picard picks up where DS9 left off in terms of evolution of ST. From Original Series to DS9 each one had elements of Classic Trek, but also evolved steadily from a purely "alien of the week" to long story arcs and from a purely upbeat to a potentially pretty dark series. Picard follows on naturally from that being fully story driven and quite dark look at a post Dominion War Federation, whilst also taking us to see the other side of the coin; far from a captain of a ship or station and instead just an old man and some friends trying to change the course of events. Along the way there's a lot of classic trek elements and characters, its just presented differently. I'd say its only real weak point was the copy-past identical romulan army that didn't feature a single warbird at the end - that was kind of a bit of a stretch.

But its totally different to things like the new films that just take things entirely in different directions.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/24 22:46:28


Post by: warboss


That's not a "sense of the original Star Trek" anymore than having the next spinoff be a gritty take on Leeta forced into the sex trade in order to survive after the brutal murder of Rom after the Orion Syndicate moves into the Holosuite business and forces Quark to cash out of DS9 in the absence of Starfleet there in a post Dominion war isolationist Federation dystopia. Yeah, you CAN tell that story... but it's not any more a continuation of the tone/feel/underlying premise of prior iterations any moreso than Picard or S1 of STD were.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/24 23:38:37


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I gotta agree with Warboss here.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/24 23:52:14


Post by: LordofHats


Picard plays out more like a very long Star Trek film than an OF Star Trek series, which is the same problem Discovery has IMO. Everything is an action sequence with no time for the slower and quieter character moments that really make Star Trek.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/25 00:09:41


Post by: bbb


To get a sense of the original Star Trek, watch The Orville. To watch modern action-sci-fi made by people with no love or respect for the original Star Trek, watch current Star Trek.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/25 00:13:39


Post by: Mr Morden


 warboss wrote:
That's not a "sense of the original Star Trek" anymore than having the next spinoff be a gritty take on Leeta forced into the sex trade in order to survive after the brutal murder of Rom after the Orion Syndicate moves into the Holosuite business and forces Quark to cash out of DS9 in the absence of Starfleet there in a post Dominion war isolationist Federation dystopia. Yeah, you CAN tell that story... but it's not any more a continuation of the tone/feel/underlying premise of prior iterations any moreso than Picard or S1 of STD were.


Thats the Mirror universe -


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/25 00:21:33


Post by: beast_gts


One of my bigger issues with Picard is how little of TNG it picks up on - he calls to his doctor from the Stargazer rather than Bev, and only served with Raffi for a few years (less than 5?), for examples. It followed VOY more than TNG.


 Overread wrote:
I'd say its only real weak point was the copy-past identical romulan army that didn't feature a single warbird at the end - that was kind of a bit of a stretch.
Both the Romulans & Federation lost most of their shipbuilding capacity so it makes a bit of sense that they'd standardise designs a bit until they got their fleets back up to size.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/25 00:24:41


Post by: Overread


beast_gts wrote:
One of my bigger issues with Picard is how little of TNG it picks up on - he calls to his doctor from the Stargazer rather than Bev, and only served with Raffi for a few years (less than 5?), for examples. It followed VOY more than TNG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
I'd say its only real weak point was the copy-past identical romulan army that didn't feature a single warbird at the end - that was kind of a bit of a stretch.
Both the Romulans & Federation lost most of their shipbuilding capacity so it makes a bit of sense that they'd standardise designs a bit until they got their fleets back up to size.


In part I think that's simply an issue with how much time has passed and how difficult (and expensive) it can be to get the old cast back together. Esp since some might not want to do the job; or be able or might even have stepped right out of acting entirely. Plus there's always way more inter-actor and team politics/social elements that viewers are often totally unaware of which can end up with some actors totally refusing to work with others.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/25 07:27:19


Post by: AduroT


I want to hate on the “galactic barrier” from this last episode of Destiny, but apparently that’s a thing from TOS? It still strikes me as dumb.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/25 08:52:11


Post by: Dysartes


I'm still kinda hoping we see Wil Wheaton crop up in S2 or S3 of Picard...


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/25 09:04:36


Post by: chromedog


 AduroT wrote:
I want to hate on the “galactic barrier” from this last episode of Destiny, but apparently that’s a thing from TOS? It still strikes me as dumb.


Yup, from "Where no man has gone before" - the Gary Mitchell episode (where he develops "god like powers" and tries to take over everything.).


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/25 15:05:54


Post by: leerm02


 warboss wrote:
That's not a "sense of the original Star Trek" anymore than having the next spinoff be a gritty take on Leeta forced into the sex trade in order to survive after the brutal murder of Rom after the Orion Syndicate moves into the Holosuite business and forces Quark to cash out of DS9 in the absence of Starfleet there in a post Dominion war isolationist Federation dystopia. Yeah, you CAN tell that story... but it's not any more a continuation of the tone/feel/underlying premise of prior iterations any moreso than Picard or S1 of STD were.


Preach it, brother!

Also: the new treks don't seem to have that amazing and re-occurring surprise-party / music recital / symposium theme that the TNG era had. Seriously folks, half of why I used to love Star-Trek was that a bunch of chill dudes wearing pajamas would occasionally get into a laser fight after pretending to like one of their buddy's bad poetry. It had a level of chill humanness that other sci-fi properties simply never even TRIED to do! ...these days it's all crying and war trauma in weirdly dark ships while everyone screams curse words at one another. Not really my vibe is all I'm saying.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/26 07:45:58


Post by: AduroT


Lower Decks has had music recital scenes.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/02/26 17:50:49


Post by: Captain Joystick


Frankly I'm ok with where Discovery is at right now. It took them a few seasons to find a convoluted reason to shunt the cast into an era where they aren't constrained by decades of canon (pushed past even Enterprise's Temporal Cold War stuff) and required them to hire on advisors from the Voyager era but it seems like they're finally comfortable playing within the Star Trek universe while mostly disposing of the need to reinvent everything, mostly...

Do we have any word on the new Abrams Trek movie beyond the announcement that it exists? If he's sticking to a producer role maybe we'll get another little miracle like Star Trek Beyond?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/02 21:18:07


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Picard Season 2 launches tomorrow.

As at least in the U.K. we’ll get it 24 hours after the USA, please be generous with your spoiler tags


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 02:46:59


Post by: hotsauceman1


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Picard Season 2 launches tomorrow.

As at least in the U.K. we’ll get it 24 hours after the USA, please be generous with your spoiler tags

Picard is in it!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 04:33:38


Post by: chromedog


Laris and Zhaban are back. Yay!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 07:28:00


Post by: AduroT


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Picard Season 2 launches tomorrow.

As at least in the U.K. we’ll get it 24 hours after the USA, please be generous with your spoiler tags


Is every episode a day late or just the first?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 07:53:09


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


All of the I assume?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 09:07:55


Post by: Togusa


Star Trek 4. Hmmm, I want the entire movie to have not a single weapon shown or fired. Not even on the Enterprise. Otherwise I'm not interested.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 15:53:22


Post by: leerm02


 Togusa wrote:
Star Trek 4. Hmmm, I want the entire movie to have not a single weapon shown or fired. Not even on the Enterprise. Otherwise I'm not interested.


I love this idea! Talk about reversing a trend!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 18:02:13


Post by: bbb


leerm02 wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Star Trek 4. Hmmm, I want the entire movie to have not a single weapon shown or fired. Not even on the Enterprise. Otherwise I'm not interested.


I love this idea! Talk about reversing a trend!


Movie / Budget / Worldwide Gross
Star Trek Beyond / $185,000,000 / $343,471,816
Star Trek Into Darkness / $190,000,000 / $467,365,246
Star Trek (2009) / $150,000,000 / $385,680,446

The Star Trek reboot franchise isn't exactly setting the box office on fire. Honestly I'm not entirely sure why they keep making them because those returns don't seem to be worth it after marketing and distribution costs. I echo the above sentiments and think they should try to make a more modestly budgeted film ($70ish million) by having the whole thing take place on the Enterprise and focus on relationships and science fiction. Some of the best Star Trek takes place entirely on the ship, go with that. Make us care about these characters and make them care about each other.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 19:56:27


Post by: Captain Joystick


It'd be a bold choice, unless I'm mistaken there hasn't been a Star Trek movie that didn't feature a cackling villain since the Slow-Motion Picture.

Edit: No wait, Voyage Home. Silly me.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 20:38:55


Post by: Mr Morden


 Togusa wrote:
Star Trek 4. Hmmm, I want the entire movie to have not a single weapon shown or fired. Not even on the Enterprise. Otherwise I'm not interested.


You must have hated the Original series


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 20:45:40


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Star Trek 4. Hmmm, I want the entire movie to have not a single weapon shown or fired. Not even on the Enterprise. Otherwise I'm not interested.


You must have hated the Original series


Famous for episodes all about shooting and space battles such as City on the Edge of Forever and The Trouble With Tribbles. Heck, there isn’t even much shooting in Mirror Mirror, the one with the whole Evil Enterprise Crew.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 20:56:47


Post by: bbb


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Star Trek 4. Hmmm, I want the entire movie to have not a single weapon shown or fired. Not even on the Enterprise. Otherwise I'm not interested.


You must have hated the Original series


Star Trek is about more than action and explosions and Beastie Boys.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 21:20:54


Post by: Mr Morden


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Star Trek 4. Hmmm, I want the entire movie to have not a single weapon shown or fired. Not even on the Enterprise. Otherwise I'm not interested.


You must have hated the Original series


Famous for episodes all about shooting and space battles such as City on the Edge of Forever and The Trouble With Tribbles. Heck, there isn’t even much shooting in Mirror Mirror, the one with the whole Evil Enterprise Crew.


Also famous for using weapons alot......or are you pretending that they did not carry sidearms......fire phasers and photons alot . etc etc etc .



No you are right - every episode was a deep and insightful exploration of a social issue....




Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/03 21:29:49


Post by: LordofHats


So apparently Picard has upgraded a bunch of STO designs to alpha canon :/

The Gargarin, Reliant, Ross, and Sutherland class ships are all STO designs, admittedly three are STO modifications to existing canon designs that had previously appeared.
Spoiler:





Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/04 00:18:12


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Mr Morden wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Star Trek 4. Hmmm, I want the entire movie to have not a single weapon shown or fired. Not even on the Enterprise. Otherwise I'm not interested.


You must have hated the Original series


Famous for episodes all about shooting and space battles such as City on the Edge of Forever and The Trouble With Tribbles. Heck, there isn’t even much shooting in Mirror Mirror, the one with the whole Evil Enterprise Crew.


Also famous for using weapons alot......or are you pretending that they did not carry sidearms......fire phasers and photons alot . etc etc etc .



No you are right - every episode was a deep and insightful exploration of a social issue....




The discussion was not about having no weapons in Star Trek. It was about having no weapons in movie number 4, or 25%, a ratio of no shoot to shooty that is adult fits in with the original Star Trek, but specially among the memorable episodes.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/04 00:32:00


Post by: beast_gts


 LordofHats wrote:
So apparently Picard has upgraded a bunch of STO designs to alpha canon :/


Yep. It's also interesting that rather than putting a letter on the end of the Stargazer's registry (NCC-2893), they put an 8 at the start for the new one (NCC-82893).


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/04 00:34:36


Post by: LordofHats


Rumor on the STO mill is that the in-game version of the StarGazer is up for a doover and an update to its 3D model. They've been doing that the past year with all the Federation ships and most have gotten a new variant version in the process so Picard might be giving players a sneak peek.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/04 11:10:27


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I really enjoyed that. Minimal mucking around for a season opener, and I appreciate them going more Federation.

Roll on next Friday, I guess!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/04 13:21:59


Post by: AduroT


I stupidly forgot I don’t care if the episodes get released on different days in different regions because I sail the high seas and always get the earliest release times, but yeah, good episode overall. It did open with a person pet peeve of mine with the dramatic action scene, then cut to two days before that.

Spoiler:
I was expecting the person taking over the bridge to be a possessed/controlled Seven since the opening scene didn’t show their identity but they were clearly Borg.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/04 14:12:40


Post by: Dysartes


 Mr Morden wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Star Trek 4. Hmmm, I want the entire movie to have not a single weapon shown or fired. Not even on the Enterprise. Otherwise I'm not interested.


You must have hated the Original series


Famous for episodes all about shooting and space battles such as City on the Edge of Forever and The Trouble With Tribbles. Heck, there isn’t even much shooting in Mirror Mirror, the one with the whole Evil Enterprise Crew.


Also famous for using weapons alot......or are you pretending that they did not carry sidearms......fire phasers and photons alot . etc etc etc .

Nothing ever happens "alot". Some things may happen "a lot", but never "alot".


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/04 15:21:02


Post by: Captain Joystick


So...

Spoiler:
I hope the stuff with the Borg at the start actually matter to the plot of the show and aren't just the studio waving shiny starships at us to appease the nerds.

I was ready for this to be Q showing Picard some alternate universe or timeline, or the mirror universe or whatever they're doing, but after that intro... I'm going to be spending the rest of the season waiting for them to go to the proverbial fireworks factory.

They took care to have someone point out that the Queen was only shooting to stun - I have a feeling there are other details going on in that sequence and a hope that the whole point of this little adventure is to help nudge Picard away from self-destructing the Stargazer and, dare I hope, forming a lasting, rehabilitating alliance with the Borg.




Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/04 18:00:45


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Also?

Spoiler:
I for one appreciated how they dealt with immortal/long lived characters ageing as us weedy ‘oomies do.

Sure it’s hokey for Guinan (we age slower unless we don’t want to). But at least they covered it.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/04 18:29:32


Post by: beast_gts


I was talking to a friend about the first episode over lunch, and they mentioned that it looked like they'd taken some fan-feedback from S1 on board:
Spoiler:
Picard has a female love interest
There's more Starfleet
Starfleet are using visually different ships




Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/05 20:24:59


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Now. Here’s a thought.

Spoiler:
The scenes of Picard being about his business seem somewhat disjointed.

It could be ropey editing. But, I do wonder if we’re perhaps seeing different possibilities, to be revealed later?



Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/05 20:55:35


Post by: Overread


Well that was a very very enjoyable first episode!

Spoiler:

I think some of Picard's business at the start isn't possible futures, but rather just moving the story forward so that they could end the first Episode with more having happened. One weakness of the first series was that it took a good few episodes to actually get going. So this new season does feel a little "fast" in the editing. Esp since a lot of the core characters from the first season have traded places and moved around a fair bit from where we last saw them. But as I see it we don't need a long introduction to them and most of the role changes are them settling back into roles they had before the first season (eg being a captain again, being an admiral again etc...).


The Queen is very interesting, she's certainly much more cybernetic and seems to much better befit the epitome of a race aiming to become machines than earlier displays of her where she was at least upper body organic on the outside.

They've certainly setup the whole beginning with a LOT of questions.


I think so far the only strange part is that no one recognised the Borg signature of the temporal rift; and the somewhat "Oh suddenly there's a fleet" kind of angle. Suggesting that the Borg Ship just sat there doing nothing whilst a fleet had time to warp in - which takes time; although considering that it was only 48 hours and Picard travelled the distance in days it seems like they are very near the core worlds so chances are it wouldn't take "too" long for the Federation to at least get some ships in range.



Otherwise very enjoyable; leaving us with a fast setup but a lot of characters set and ready to go and a lot of questions unanswered which is just what you want from the opening play. Q appearing was very well handled considering its a scene they had to cover in a few lines before the end of the episode.




Also I think people who didn't like season 1 as much might like this a bit more. Picard is back in Starfleet, this isn't the story on the outside looking in. Of course he's hardly in it before he's seemingly out of it and now in a different time-line. However, as I've said before, the joy of a Q based storyline with time travel and alternate timelines is that its often (or at least historically) less of a "everything changes and stays changed" and more of a puzzle of "try to get home".

Also on the subject of the Borg seeking peace lets consider that with the events of First Contact and the end of Voyager the Borg have been hit with several massive blows from the Federation. Granted the Voyager one was a bit of a long stretch, but all in all we are seeing perhaps that the Borg have been losing for some time. Heck after Voyager's adventures it might be that even a short term heavy impact to the Borg left them vulnerable and other powers in the Delta Quadrant rose up and suddenly the Borg went from dominant to more fringe.

At the same time for a race that seeks to become machine they've been surprisingly poor at achieving it in its most pure form. Meanwhile the Federation hasn't just done it, they've made machines who are alive, not just organics becoming machine but actual pure machine life. And now those machines are making more machines - in theory the Federation might be one of their enemies, but they have also achieved that which the Borg, at its very core, was created to achieve. Peace might well be the Borg's way of trying to gain that from the Federation.



That or the Queens bid for "power" is because there's something worse behind that mega-ship. That its not an invasion ship but an escape ship. We've seen races like Species 8472 rise up against the Borg and threaten them. Perhaps they found a way back to this universe.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/05 23:55:05


Post by: AduroT


I don’t think Borg are all about becoming pure machines, or they wouldn’t need to bother assimilating other races biologicals. Plus remember when the queen had Data, a pure machine, her response was to slap organic skin on him. It’s hard to say if the queen is more cybernetic, I think it’s just clothing/mask to hide her identity for later dramatic reveal. As for why Borg would join up, one thing to consider is they’re all about adapting to stuff. If you can’t beat them?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/06 00:39:39


Post by: Overread


 AduroT wrote:
I don’t think Borg are all about becoming pure machines, or they wouldn’t need to bother assimilating other races biologicals. Plus remember when the queen had Data, a pure machine, her response was to slap organic skin on him. It’s hard to say if the queen is more cybernetic, I think it’s just clothing/mask to hide her identity for later dramatic reveal. As for why Borg would join up, one thing to consider is they’re all about adapting to stuff. If you can’t beat them?



Spoiler:
The Borg have always worshipped the machine*, they are like the Ad Mech of the Startrek Universe. However when the Queen had Data she knew that she couldn't just "hack" him or corrupt/infest him to her cause. So she gave him what he wanted, flesh. Preying on his emotion chip (which she reactivated) and feelings to try and convince Data to join her and abandon Starfleet. Considering that Data wasn't just a wealth of knowledge on the perfect machine body, but also able to take control over the Enterprise as he knew most of the security codes and such. If she got him she got the ship, if she got the ship she won the war against humanity in the past.

As for adaptation the Borg typically assimilate other things into their own. Indeed as the queen proved within her first few moments of appearing, she was already securing those ships for her own use. It's their first line of thought - to infest others not be infested. What's strange is that they'd request Picard to appear and their whole approach is very non-typical for the Borg. They also rarely show concern for preserving other life; other life is either hostile and to be destroyed or non-hostile and to be infested.


Your idea that the queen is a mask is a good one. Time Travel/reality hopping is something we know will happen and the Queen was very well hidden. It could be she's a character from the future come to the past; or one from an alternate reality again fleeing an enemy. Alternate reality presents an interesting situation as she could be the alter-ego of an existing character.



*That said I've often wondered if the Borg are "broken" in some fundamental way as they are rarely shown as having very advanced bodies. Heck their early ones were very slow and the cybernetics very primitive compared to, say, Data and other mechs they encounter. Plus adapting others into their whole isn't "necessary" for them to gain new technology all the time and such. So I've often wondered if they've this lofty goal to become the perfect machine, but somewhere along the line something got correupted/confused within the collective and they end up like an ant-hive. Even though they've a "Queen" they've no way to move out of what they are locked into. A fixed way of flawed design and thinking.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/06 02:36:26


Post by: AduroT


Spoiler:
No one else has mentioned it, so just to make sure, you caught the queen quoted a line from Picard’s mother to him, right?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/06 10:10:52


Post by: Overread


 AduroT wrote:
Spoiler:
No one else has mentioned it, so just to make sure, you caught the queen quoted a line from Picard’s mother to him, right?


Spoiler:
Very true. That does reinforce the idea that who the queen is could potentially be someone close to him. Then again, in theory, the Borg should know everything about Picard as well as what strings to pull on him. He was once part of the collective.

Actually that whole line of thinking brings about the very start where "something" happens in his home that sets him apart from people and makes him isolate himself and, if not reject, at least not openly commit to relationships. So there's that whole arc waiting for development.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/06 11:12:49


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Also nice to see The Borg feel mysterious and threatening again after Voyager utterly ruined them.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/06 21:15:34


Post by: Mr Morden


I was really impressed with that first episode

The cast seemed to work together with the script with a ease (real or practised) that put me in mind of SG1
I even managed to not hate the bit with
Spoiler:
Guinen
who I disliked throughout Next Gen
Some interesting stuff, lots of nice throw backs and all good.

Always great to see Orla Brady and Jeri Ryan

Some thoughts

Spoiler:

* Picard has actually lived an entire live and had a family in that episode he was in a simulation
* I hope the Borg Queen is not Picards mother.....
* Q is back - hopefully having fun and not just testing....


Roll on episode 2


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/06 21:33:32


Post by: Overread


Spoiler:

The Queen being his mother is a touch too obvious by the quote; however the same is true if she turns out to be Seven of Nine or indeed anyone who is directly very close to him. Of course that latter part is me thinking that she's an alternate dimension/timeline queen creation.

I think Guinen was a great character who never got developed in TNG. If anything she was a touch more like a DS9 character designed to be developed bit by bit over multiple episodes. However I think they just couldn't make it work. It might be because she was always a guest character so perhaps they just never had enough episodes in the budget/time to make it work. They certainly had a few interesting encounters and parts to her story that hinted that she had more to her than just a very long life.



Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/08 11:11:27


Post by: Shadow Walker


I liked the 2nd's first episode. Q is one of my favourite characters from TNG so I cannot wait what he will bring to this series.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/08 11:58:22


Post by: Slipspace


Definitely an improvement over the early episodes of season 1. I think a lot will depend on how quickly they get past the exposition in the next episode and into the actual meat of the story but I enjoyed this opener a lot.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/08 13:30:06


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’m particularly looking forward to Picard being more stern with Q.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/08 13:54:08


Post by: AduroT


Maybe he’ll finally punch him?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/08 14:54:48


Post by: warboss


And finally passionately embrace too? The original STTNG ship, lol.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/08 15:11:30


Post by: SamusDrake


 AduroT wrote:
Maybe he’ll finally punch him?


No, that's Sisko's job!




Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/08 19:09:01


Post by: AduroT


SamusDrake wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
Maybe he’ll finally punch him?


No, that's Sisko's job!



Ah ya got my reference, thanks!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/09 19:41:38


Post by: SamusDrake


Love that episode!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/09 23:11:23


Post by: Ahtman





Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/11 04:37:07


Post by: BrianDavion


 AduroT wrote:
Maybe he’ll finally punch him?



Spoiler:
apparently it wasn't PICARD who snapped first LOL


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/11 07:31:11


Post by: AduroT


BrianDavion wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
Maybe he’ll finally punch him?



Spoiler:
apparently it wasn't PICARD who snapped first LOL


Spoiler:
Teeeeeechnically my post didn’t name names and you can’t just Assume who I meant so I was still right.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/11 11:01:51


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Season 2 continues to impress. Much less faffage for sure.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/11 14:11:37


Post by: Shadow Walker


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Season 2 continues to impress. Much less faffage for sure.

Agreed, although I liked the first (except the last episode), this one is already better.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/11 17:30:02


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


On the “less faffage”, I think I need to acknowledge that Season 1 had some heavy lifting to do.

First, it had to tell us or at least hint at what had happened in the 25 or so years since we last saw Picard. We find out he was central to sorting the aftermath of the Kelvin divergence, etc etc.

Season 2 has that established, so is able to get to the meat and bones of its own plot quite quickly.

Some pretty neat callbacks though. And I do wonder if that was Grand Nagus Rom’s noggin on display….


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/11 17:41:29


Post by: Overread


Also season 1 had to give us a different Picard. Someone who was much much older and has to deal with the fact that his body has aged physically. Even without all the political shifts and his status position changing as well, the actual man has changed.

I also think that its got the added difficulty that we aren't actually used to such mature characters being in a leading role. We are used to them in the "Gandalf" or "Obi Wan" role of being a guide setting things up and advising and helping the younger generations come into their own. Ergo a supporting not a leading role.

So in a way I feel like season 1 did really well with its slow start because it set out some really good and very important solid groundwork. So yes season 2 gets into the swing of things so much faster, because we already know the political shifts, the social shifts, the post war shifts. We've an appreciation for how Picard is different; his relationship with other characters and more.

So all that work is done, dusted and established.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/11 18:07:58


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Far more eloquently put then wot I managed!


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/11 18:16:59


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
The one bit I found weird was Dukat's skull. All of the ridges are bone, including the eyebrow ones. Like the head bits and the spoon forehead would be fine, why did the eyebrows need to be bones?

Also;
Spoiler:

RIP Worf lol


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/11 20:36:04


Post by: Captain Joystick


 Overread wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
I don’t think Borg are all about becoming pure machines, or they wouldn’t need to bother assimilating other races biologicals. Plus remember when the queen had Data, a pure machine, her response was to slap organic skin on him. It’s hard to say if the queen is more cybernetic, I think it’s just clothing/mask to hide her identity for later dramatic reveal. As for why Borg would join up, one thing to consider is they’re all about adapting to stuff. If you can’t beat them?



Spoiler:
The Borg have always worshipped the machine*, they are like the Ad Mech of the Startrek Universe. However when the Queen had Data she knew that she couldn't just "hack" him or corrupt/infest him to her cause. So she gave him what he wanted, flesh. Preying on his emotion chip (which she reactivated) and feelings to try and convince Data to join her and abandon Starfleet. Considering that Data wasn't just a wealth of knowledge on the perfect machine body, but also able to take control over the Enterprise as he knew most of the security codes and such. If she got him she got the ship, if she got the ship she won the war against humanity in the past.

As for adaptation the Borg typically assimilate other things into their own. Indeed as the queen proved within her first few moments of appearing, she was already securing those ships for her own use. It's their first line of thought - to infest others not be infested. What's strange is that they'd request Picard to appear and their whole approach is very non-typical for the Borg. They also rarely show concern for preserving other life; other life is either hostile and to be destroyed or non-hostile and to be infested.


Your idea that the queen is a mask is a good one. Time Travel/reality hopping is something we know will happen and the Queen was very well hidden. It could be she's a character from the future come to the past; or one from an alternate reality again fleeing an enemy. Alternate reality presents an interesting situation as she could be the alter-ego of an existing character.



*That said I've often wondered if the Borg are "broken" in some fundamental way as they are rarely shown as having very advanced bodies. Heck their early ones were very slow and the cybernetics very primitive compared to, say, Data and other mechs they encounter. Plus adapting others into their whole isn't "necessary" for them to gain new technology all the time and such. So I've often wondered if they've this lofty goal to become the perfect machine, but somewhere along the line something got correupted/confused within the collective and they end up like an ant-hive. Even though they've a "Queen" they've no way to move out of what they are locked into. A fixed way of flawed design and thinking.


Spoiler:
The Borg don't worship technology, either figuratively or literally. They seek to incorporate both the biological and technological distinctiveness of other races into their own in a pursuit of perfection, either some hypothetical static future state or an evolving definition that they continually strive for. When Data insists he is unlike any lifeform they have encountered before, the Queen responds with a blazé 'You are an imperfect being, created by an imperfect being', for all we know they've already assimilated completely technological life forms or societies, if the amount humanity churned out over the course of the TOS-TNG era is anywhere close to the galactic average.


That second episode was great. Proper great. And I have a wild out there theory to share:

Spoiler:
That anomaly from episode 1, and the borg behind it are actually Picard and the crew, emerging triumphant from their 2024 adventure. Maybe the 'queen' from that episode is Picard himself.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/11 21:58:15


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


About to give it a second watch.

On the first watch, and the same for the first episode?

I didn’t want the episode to end. It’s been a while since a show provoked that sort of reaction from me.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/11 23:35:05


Post by: RegularGuy


I gave up during voyager. Was too repetitive and formulaic in content.

Tuned in to Abram's "Star Trek Babies" (cue muppet babies theme) and found I didn't find the characters very believable. Dislike the whole "throw out the old and make something new even if it isn't rational, as long as its a spectacle" trend. Modern works often feel less mature to me both in writing and characters than earlier works.

Wasn't at all interested in the looks of Discovery. I frankly liked the puerto rican klingons best, not because of their looks, but because of their acting. Movie and TNG klingons became more of a caricature (as were most aliens in TNG on) and discover was looking to double down. May watch some day to see if I'm mistaken.

Integration of Current Year politics seems less artfully done than in the past.


Dislike the way the tech level of stories in older parts of the timeline creep higher than the original series (Enterprise)


Suppose I'm just too old and too oriented around/steeped what was good about the older material to have interest in the new approach and content. Maybe. Some how I love Rogue One and ghostbusters afterlife where I disliked the disney trilogy and GB reboot.

I'll bet if someone did a TOS level of maturity and skill with elements of Abrams visual interpretation of the TOS universe it would grab me better.

I'd be interested to see a series which explores and is sympathetic to the perspective humans on the outside of the federation. Explore potential cohesiveness or unfairness toward humans who don't want to be part of the Federation truth. A Maquis series painting a different side of the federation could be cool


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/14 20:52:42


Post by: Togusa


Strange New Worlds appears interesting...on the surface.

If this show is a return to ToS/TNG era trek in terms of self contained episodes focusing more on Character development, then I'm all for it.

But I've been burned way too many times on this now. I will wait until I can see the actual show, and then decide for myself.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/15 01:10:15


Post by: bbb


The one thing that has been constant for me the last 20ish years is my confidence that the people in charge of Star Trek don't actually respect Star Trek.

Mr. Worf, set expectations to: no confidence.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/15 01:16:49


Post by: warboss


How many trek shows are they concurrently showing now? Three? That seems a bit of an odd choice if they're going to have a big gap following them before the new seasons queue up again.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/15 03:23:04


Post by: AduroT


I believe two at the moment, Picard and Discovery. Prodigy is on a midseason break.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/15 14:14:45


Post by: Captain Joystick


Prodigy's 1st season finale was just over a month ago. How time flies.

ATM we have Picard and Discovery, which I think will have its season finale this week. That leaves Picard as the sole show until Strange New Worlds in May?


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/15 14:18:30


Post by: warboss


Ok, thanks for the clarification. I figured Prodigy was still going on but it's on hiatus (is it on streaming or is that the Nickelodeon show that it "needs" a mid season break?) so just two ongoing for a couple weeks.


Whither Star Trek? @ 2022/03/15 14:28:20


Post by: Captain Joystick


Prodigy seems to be a relatively limited series in general, they had a break after episode 4 or 5 and episode 9 is listed as their finale in Crave, at the very least.

As for the breaks, I imagine it's for technical reasons. The show seems pretty sophisticated compared to the Star Wars CGI cartoons.