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Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 18:17:51


Post by: SemperMortis


MOBGA

Does anyone else miss playing with or against massive armies of Boyz? Not even just green tide lists, but a competitive list with 60-90 Boyz in it? I personally miss bringing a horde to the table, even if it wasn't true Green Tide. It was always nice to plunk 2-3 blobs on the table and then fill in the rest with specialists and vehicles.

When they announced boyz were going to T5 everyone was up in arms saying Boyz would be OP and orkz would dominate the meta with green tide, I think we can safely say at this point that those people were dead wrong. The last 7 Ork lists that placed in a GT/Major had a grand total of 10 Ork boyz between all 7 lists. So 90pts total out of 14,000.

For those unaware, Ork boyz in prior editions were 6ppm, they gained T5 and went from S4 on the charge to base S4 and are now 9ppm. 9pts for a T5 model sounds pretty good except that Orkz are also just about the only faction that gives a damn about Morale.

In previous editions Ork boyz were all but fearless at the start to midpoint of the game. Mob rule meant you had to whittle down those units pretty heavily in order for orkz to start losing models to morale. They also had several abilities from HQs and elites that reduced morale issues, those are all fundamentally gone at this point.

To understand the issues, 30 Ork boyz used to cost 180pts, they now cost 270pts, that is a 50% increase in cost.
If a unit of 30 boyz got hit with 36 bolter shots, they would lose 10 models, or 60pts. They would be LD20 and incapable of failing morale at this point.
Now? A unit of 30 boyz gets hit with 36 bolter shots, instead of losing 10 they now lose 6.6 models. Sounds better right?...kind of, for starters, 6.6 boyz at 9ppm is 59.4pts, so they are basically the same as before when they were 6ppm but now they aren't immune to morale either. Unless they roll a 1 they fail morale and lose 1 more model, bringing them down to 22.4 boyz left, you then lose another 3.7ish to attrition bringing you down to 18.6 boyz left. So now instead of losing 10 models for a total of 60pts you lost 11.4 for a total of 102.6pts

To add to that even more, boyz lost access to most of their good/competitive stratagems like Endless Green Tide (respawn a dmg unit), fight twice, Mob up. etc. They also changed our kulture rules to make assault from deep strike less reliable, meaning you are stuck with a 9' charge from deep strike for most factions. Weirdboyz no longer get +1-3 for their casts by having boyz nearby and instead get to cast a 2nd power if there are 20 boyz nearby.

So to summarize, there are fewer/weaker buffs available for boyz, there are fewer/weaker stratagems available for boyz. Boyz are more expensive and somehow LESS durable when you factor in morale.

Maybe i'm the odd one out, but I miss boyz on the table, what do you guys say?


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 18:20:15


Post by: Insectum7


A lack of Boyz in Ork armies is a sad state of affairs.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 18:35:09


Post by: Strg Alt


Looks like GW wants Ork players to put Boyz in Trukks instead of fielding green blobs. Also an incentive for future Ork players who were previously intimidated with the prospect of painting a horde.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 18:44:57


Post by: Daedalus81


Part of this is the poor state of affairs with the DLC books. I bet at some point we'll see an army of reknown based around boyz that will get strats relevant to that play style.

I can see Boyz in general going down a point in CA, but probably not much more than that.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 18:49:42


Post by: the_scotsman


its pretty clear from the examples of wyches and skitarii that to make a light infantry unit that can perform worth its salt in the hyper-hyper-deadliness of 9th edition, it has to be so absurdly ridiculously overtuned in damage that it can just instantly shred anything it gets in range of.

the principle problem is that light infantry are the most likely units to be unable to be in position to deal damage right off the bat. They generally need to be transported, teleported by support units, moved in via stratagems, etc, unlike mobile units or more elite units which often come with those abilities stock or are such a huge percentage of the army list pointswise that spending 1cp to deep strike or infiltrate them is just an irrelevancy.

Do I think ork boyz should be given back a 'bring 'em in a big mob' bonus? Yes, absolutely, I think 'theyre a big huge mob and theyre basically unstoppable when theyre in a unit that big' is a really iconic part of what makes basic ork boyz perform like themselves and have a unique role alongside the supporting units like kommandos and stormboyz.

Do I think Ork Boyz' issues are in any way unique to them? No. GW completely transparently makes certain types of units artificially good or bad in certain editions in order to create manufactured discontent with players existing connections and to keep the competitive meta moving, because everybody hates when the competitive meta is solved, even when its solved in a fairly balanced 45%-55% winrate range by faction.

Just look at the various ways they hammered Tzaangors with the nerfbat for literally absolutely zero reason - they were nowhere near a competitive choice ANYBODY was taking ANYWHERE, and GW decided they needed:

-1 weapon skill
-1 leadership
-10 to their squad size cap
-no fight twice stratagem
-no re-roll vs characters ability
-Fatecaster Greatbows reworked into impossibly gakky sniper weapons on exalteds
-no potion ability on the shaman
-no access to the auras from your non-shaman HQs

Why? Because people bought those models when they released them in the previous codex, duhhh! they HAVE to be made artificially worse, or someone might decide to bring fewer rubric models in their thousand sons list, and that's not allowed to be a valid choice! (and before you donkey-caves get on me, I own ten tzaangors total. Ten. My list has been all rubrics and terminators since the 7E list)

There will ALWAYS be people who cheer this gak on. Always. Because people like their collection, and they hate any collection they lose a game against, any time they lose a game against them, and they will find some way to consider that player's model choices unfair bs they shouldnt be allowed to do. Coincidentally, this makes GW tons of money. Its almost like they encourage this attitude by purposefully nerfing things people get emotional about in punitive ways.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Part of this is the poor state of affairs with the DLC books. I bet at some point we'll see an army of reknown based around boyz that will get strats relevant to that play style.

I can see Boyz in general going down a point in CA, but probably not much more than that.


Nah its gonna be next codex. The cycle must continue!!!

at least at -1pt theyd be useful in MSU.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 19:00:20


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


 Strg Alt wrote:
Looks like GW wants Ork players to put Boyz in Trukks instead of fielding green blobs. Also an incentive for future Ork players who were previously intimidated with the prospect of painting a horde.


You want 10 boyz in a trukk, cause they limit specialist mobs for some reason.

Plus, if you don’t want to paint a horde, I’d look somewhere besides orks.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 20:14:40


Post by: vict0988


I haven't played much since their new codex got released, I haven't had a chance to feel the difference. Ultimately it is something that can definitely be fixed by lowering pts cost by 1-2. At least they didn't get changed to Elites like Scouts did. The need for counting exactly how many Boyz were in a unit for Morale purposes was janky. The new Mob Rule is still Janky and way too limited IMO.

Something like Mob Rule (Aura): <CLAN> units from your army within 6" ignore modifiers to Combat Attrition tests If this unit has 11+ models.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 20:17:45


Post by: Dudeface


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
Looks like GW wants Ork players to put Boyz in Trukks instead of fielding green blobs. Also an incentive for future Ork players who were previously intimidated with the prospect of painting a horde.


You want 10 boyz in a trukk, cause they limit specialist mobs for some reason.

Plus, if you don’t want to paint a horde, I’d look somewhere besides orks.


There's always been lots of ork forces thart aren't hordes in the traditional sense. In speed freaks, armoured kompanies & dread mobs, don't gatekeep the Orks behind a particular army build. Da more greenskins da betta!


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 21:38:57


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Dudeface wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
Looks like GW wants Ork players to put Boyz in Trukks instead of fielding green blobs. Also an incentive for future Ork players who were previously intimidated with the prospect of painting a horde.


You want 10 boyz in a trukk, cause they limit specialist mobs for some reason.

Plus, if you don’t want to paint a horde, I’d look somewhere besides orks.


There's always been lots of ork forces thart aren't hordes in the traditional sense. In speed freaks, armoured kompanies & dread mobs, don't gatekeep the Orks behind a particular army build. Da more greenskins da betta!


You just horde vehicles or land lol, it’s a horde no matter what, compared to everyone else at least.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 22:00:37


Post by: Hankovitch


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

You just horde vehicles or land lol, it’s a horde no matter what, compared to everyone else at least.


Right. Nine ork vehicles in an army is a "horde," while nine vehicles in a Space Marine or Drukhari army is an "elite force."


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 22:12:19


Post by: SemperMortis


 vict0988 wrote:
I haven't played much since their new codex got released, I haven't had a chance to feel the difference. Ultimately it is something that can definitely be fixed by lowering pts cost by 1-2. At least they didn't get changed to Elites like Scouts did. The need for counting exactly how many Boyz were in a unit for Morale purposes was janky. The new Mob Rule is still Janky and way too limited IMO.

Something like Mob Rule (Aura): <CLAN> units from your army within 6" ignore modifiers to Combat Attrition tests If this unit has 11+ models.


You could lower boys down to 7ppm and nobody would take them except in MSU still. The problem is like I said, Orkz are about the only faction that give a damn about Morale. Marines generally show up in squads of 3-5 and are LD8, meaning you have to basically wipe the squad to have a chance of failing morale. SoB are the same way, TS are immune to morale, Tau are atm functionally fearless, necrons are functionally fearless, nids are functionally fearless etc.

Just so you know though, the new Mob rule is if you are near another unit that isn't below half strength you aren't either. Not to be overly negative...but who gives a damn? Boyz can be taken in mobs of 30 with LD7. You kill 6 and the mob loses 5 more to morale/attrition. I shouldn't be losing almost as many casualties to morale as I am losing to enemy fire. There is a reason why you have not seen a single competitive list featuring anything more than MSU boyz. I already mentioned it, but you can dig through the last 3 months and you will be hard pressed to find 5 units of MSU boyz in GT lists.

Also, I am well aware that you can use the restrictive "Breaking eads" strategy. What does that do? Instead of losing 4-5 Boyz you get to instead Pay 2CP for the privilege of killing D3 of your own boyz. Sorry that isn't a real solution to the problem, nor is the once a game auto-pass morale strat.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Looks like GW wants Ork players to put Boyz in Trukks instead of fielding green blobs. Also an incentive for future Ork players who were previously intimidated with the prospect of painting a horde.


I would be fine with Trukk boyz if it was a valid option, but its not.

First off, Boyz in a trukk are not competitive. There is nothing special about this style of play that makes it competitive, its also incredibly restrictive and expensive points wise. Boyz as mentioned went from 6ppm to 9ppm in 2 editions. Trukkz went from 35ppm to 70ppm So 10 trukkboyz with a naked Nob in a trukk is 160pts. Your opponent is guaranteed to get at least 1 full turn of shooting the hell out of you, and a 50/50 chance of getting 2 full turns of shooting you before you can get into combat. A trukk isn't exactly durable at T6 with a 4+ save.

Secondly, Trukk Boyz which are different from boyz in trukkz are a specialist mob which is somewhat competitive in my alphork strike list because they can move, get out, move, advance and charge in a single turn which gives them a massive threat range. Sadly its limited to 1 per detachment and the mob in question loses its kulture which is a big deal since even with -1AP choppas, boyz aren't that killy. If Boyz were allowed to keep their kulture and be Trukk Boyz there would be a good reason to take 30-60 boyz in a list, sadly at the moment that isn't the case which is why my list is an outlier in that it takes 3 units of trukk boyz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hankovitch wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

You just horde vehicles or land lol, it’s a horde no matter what, compared to everyone else at least.


Right. Nine ork vehicles in an army is a "horde," while nine vehicles in a Space Marine or Drukhari army is an "elite force."


9 Ork buggies is 810pts. 9 Space Marine vehicles is....probably closer to 1200-1500


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 22:20:32


Post by: cody.d.


Perhaps we'll get lucky, and in GWs next balance dataslate thing they'll make a tweak or two. They have shown they're willing to make sizable changes to how elements of an army function. See the Guard orders buff and the cron core buff. I'd love for us to have our core spread out a little more to match up with imperials.

Mob rule has only ever been weaker in 7th, when you had to roll a D3 and had a solid chance of losing a few models. And we had terrible leadership too.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 22:22:57


Post by: Insectum7


SemperMortis wrote:

9 Ork buggies is 810pts. 9 Space Marine vehicles is....probably closer to 1200-1500
9 Rhinos for 720, Razorbacks with TL Heavy Bolters fpr 990.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 22:26:40


Post by: SemperMortis


 Insectum7 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

9 Ork buggies is 810pts. 9 Space Marine vehicles is....probably closer to 1200-1500
9 Rhinos for 720, Razorbacks with TL Heavy Bolters fpr 990.


Yes, but nobody is taking 9 Rhinos or razorbacks I could have just said 9 trukkz which is 630pts but again, nobody brings that many trukkz right now.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 22:36:05


Post by: Insectum7


SemperMortis wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

9 Ork buggies is 810pts. 9 Space Marine vehicles is....probably closer to 1200-1500
9 Rhinos for 720, Razorbacks with TL Heavy Bolters fpr 990.


Yes, but nobody is taking 9 Rhinos or razorbacks I could have just said 9 trukkz which is 630pts but again, nobody brings that many trukkz right now.
Ok, 9 attack bikes!

Does anybody bring 9 SM vehicles these days? I used to bring 6 Rhino/Razors during 8th, but I haven't played my SM in 9th.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 22:54:44


Post by: SemperMortis


 Insectum7 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

9 Ork buggies is 810pts. 9 Space Marine vehicles is....probably closer to 1200-1500
9 Rhinos for 720, Razorbacks with TL Heavy Bolters fpr 990.


Yes, but nobody is taking 9 Rhinos or razorbacks I could have just said 9 trukkz which is 630pts but again, nobody brings that many trukkz right now.
Ok, 9 attack bikes!

Does anybody bring 9 SM vehicles these days? I used to bring 6 Rhino/Razors during 8th, but I haven't played my SM in 9th.


I don't think anyone brings any SM vehicles besides dreads and variants of dreads


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 23:06:40


Post by: ccs


SemperMortis wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

9 Ork buggies is 810pts. 9 Space Marine vehicles is....probably closer to 1200-1500
9 Rhinos for 720, Razorbacks with TL Heavy Bolters fpr 990.


Yes, but nobody is taking 9 Rhinos or razorbacks I could have just said 9 trukkz which is 630pts but again, nobody brings that many trukkz right now.
Ok, 9 attack bikes!

Does anybody bring 9 SM vehicles these days? I used to bring 6 Rhino/Razors during 8th, but I haven't played my SM in 9th.


I don't think anyone brings any SM vehicles besides dreads and variants of dreads


Not true! I mount my dreads & variant dreads in FW Dreadnought Drop Pods.

Seriously though, I DO use SM vehicles other than dreads.
My SW have: 1 Thunderhawk, 2 Dread Pods, 2 dreads (1 being Bjorn), 8 drop pods, & two fully magnitized speeders at their disposal.
My DA have: 3 Rhinos, 3 Las/Plas Razorbacks, 3 dreads, 1 whirlwind, 1 fully magnetized Predator, & 1 whirlwind.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 23:11:16


Post by: vipoid


SemperMortis wrote:
MOBGA

Does anyone else miss playing with or against massive armies of Boyz? Not even just green tide lists, but a competitive list with 60-90 Boyz in it? I personally miss bringing a horde to the table, even if it wasn't true Green Tide. It was always nice to plunk 2-3 blobs on the table and then fill in the rest with specialists and vehicles.


Certainly. I think horde (or horde-ish) armies are often the most fun to play against.

Even if you lose in the end, you at least generally get to feel like you're doing something by killing a lot of models (as opposed to playing a list of Knights or such, where you can often lose feeling as though you barely managed to kill nothing at all).


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Part of this is the poor state of affairs with the DLC books.


Opinion: A wargame should not have DLC. Period.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 23:20:01


Post by: alextroy


I think it can be safely said that Ork Boyz are overly expensive while the key buggies are undercosted. That won't necessarily fix the problem unless they make Boyz 6 points given how badly Morale messes them up.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 23:39:09


Post by: Amishprn86


Well 1st no matter what, Orks needs a LD buff of huge proportions.

Do that first then see if there are more problems (there are but lets see if there are others before changing).

edit: spelling


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/16 23:43:09


Post by: cody.d.


Bleh, just got flashbacks of the razorback spam days.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 00:42:31


Post by: ccs


 vipoid wrote:

Opinion: A wargame should not have DLC. Period.


Look, they've been making extra content since about Day #2 of RT. And before that WHFB 1e & 2e.... They aren't going to stop in your lifetime. And they don't care about your opinion on the subject.
So if you don't like it, there's the door.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 00:51:53


Post by: Amishprn86


ccs wrote:
 vipoid wrote:

Opinion: A wargame should not have DLC. Period.


Look, they've been making extra content since about Day #2 of RT. And before that WHFB 1e & 2e.... They aren't going to stop in your lifetime. And they don't care about your opinion on the subject.
So if you don't like it, there's the door.


Extra content it 100% fine, completely broken day 1 DLC's match play (aka suppose to be balance rules) that should has been in the codices is not fine.

Having a cool new Subfaction that is not normally supported like Outclass Eldar, sure great, amazing, non event legal and fun for everyone. Or a narrative, new missions, or just cool new units, all great for bonus content.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 01:07:50


Post by: Jarms48


Boys and Beast Snagga Boys could probably go down 1 point per model. Gretchin could probably go back to a 6+ save again, or buff their support characters.

Kommandos probably need to go up by minimum 2, possibly 4, they're far too good for their cost.



Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 04:42:50


Post by: ccs


Jarms48 wrote:
Boys and Beast Snagga Boys could probably go down 1 point per model.


Ooh, so buy 9 orks & get the 10th free.
Yes, that will solve the problem & encourage the return of hordes of Boyz to the table.....

Oh, wait. It won't. All you'll have are slightly cheaper Boyz not being used.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 04:49:32


Post by: Daedalus81


 vipoid wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Part of this is the poor state of affairs with the DLC books.


Opinion: A wargame should not have DLC. Period.


I am of two minds. In theory the ability to expand into more esoteric places seems great as well as giving them time to think up appropriate ideas. In practice it just feels like stripping out stuff that should exist in the first place to just sell it later ( not as much for AoR, but you get the idea ).



Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 05:52:00


Post by: Voss


 Amishprn86 wrote:
ccs wrote:
 vipoid wrote:

Opinion: A wargame should not have DLC. Period.


Look, they've been making extra content since about Day #2 of RT. And before that WHFB 1e & 2e.... They aren't going to stop in your lifetime. And they don't care about your opinion on the subject.
So if you don't like it, there's the door.


Extra content it 100% fine, completely broken day 1 DLC's match play (aka suppose to be balance rules) that should has been in the codices is not fine.

Having a cool new Subfaction that is not normally supported like Outclass Eldar, sure great, amazing, non event legal and fun for everyone. Or a narrative, new missions, or just cool new units, all great for bonus content.


Yeah, not a fan of $40 (or whatever) surcharge for the real Blood Axe or Leviathan rules, OR the 'if you don't play the specially curated subfactions, go feth yourself' attitude.
They can stick their 'supplements' somewhere uncomfortable.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 06:52:57


Post by: Dudeface


ccs wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
Boys and Beast Snagga Boys could probably go down 1 point per model.


Ooh, so buy 9 orks & get the 10th free.
Yes, that will solve the problem & encourage the return of hordes of Boyz to the table.....

Oh, wait. It won't. All you'll have are slightly cheaper Boyz not being used.


Points aren't the main problem, as mentioned elsewhere the morale losses are what's hitting hard, but they also don't want to just make them functionally immune to morale again as that's a poor design choice.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 07:41:10


Post by: Blackie


SemperMortis wrote:


I don't think anyone brings any SM vehicles besides dreads and variants of dreads


Do SW count as SM?

I always bring 3 Razorbacks and either a LR Crusader or a Stormwolf. So, that's at least one player that brings vehicles besides dreads!

Back on topic, I'd also like to be better but in a way in which multiple numbers of boyz are appealing in an ork list. 20-30ish, like now, or 50-60 to a proper horde of 90+ guys. All brackets should be legit. Then boyz will truly be great again. If eventual buffs make greentides of 90+ boyz autoinclude again then I'd prefer to keep things as they currently are .


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 10:51:20


Post by: Spoletta


Troops should work closely to the faction theme.

As such, IMO the correct fix is:
Boyz units automatically pass combat attrition tests during the first turn of WAAAGH.

Doesn't make them immune to morale, except during that one big turn where you go all out.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 11:15:19


Post by: Jidmah


Not a terrible idea, but you take most attrition casualties during your first turn, while boyz would want to call the Waaagh! on their second. It also wouldn't help shoota boyz a lot.

The main issue with boyz is that they don't have a role to fulfill.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 11:36:45


Post by: Spoletta


Something more orkish then.

Bak in da' fight!: When a warboss declares a WAAAGH, roll a dice for each model of this unit that has been destroyed during previous turns. On a roll of 4+ that model is added back into the unit.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 11:44:33


Post by: Jidmah


I guess you could return to one of the old mob rule implementations - whenever any ork model is lost to attrition or morale, and there is a unit of boyz with at least 10 models nearby, you add one boyz model to that unit.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 13:17:24


Post by: Afrodactyl


As far as morale goes, an Ork boy is LD6, and the unit Nob makes it LD7.

How about adding a clause to mob rule, changing it to:
While this unit is within 6" of a friendly <CLAN> MOB unit that is not under half strength, this unit is never considered to be under half strength. If that same friendly <CLAN> MOB unit contains an equal or greater number of models than this unit, add +1 to this units LD score.

Nobz mobs and Meganobz gain the following:
Bully Boyz
Models in this unit count as two models for the purposes of Mob Rule.

Then add a +1 LD aura to Warbosses and Beastbosses.

Then you have effectively LD 9 as long as they're around each other and their bosses, and they count as over half strength.


And then they could probably have a point reduction.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 13:28:34


Post by: Tyel


Dudeface wrote:
Points aren't the main problem, as mentioned elsewhere the morale losses are what's hitting hard, but they also don't want to just make them functionally immune to morale again as that's a poor design choice.


Its the same thing really.

The basic competitive question is whether a skew into lots of T5 bodies will be worth it. Right now it isn't. You can however help that skew by making them cheaper, changing morale etc. But you are still essentially going down the same line.

The meta is now in a bit of a state of flux given the recent changes - but its unclear its going to become more attractive. In recent times there have been too many armies who have no problems dealing with a handful of Boyz units.

On paper nothing stops people showing up with lists consisting of say 3*15 Kommandos, 3*15 Storm Boyz and 3*15 Burna Boyz. Which I think would be considerably better than say 150 boyz. (Okay this might be too much on both counts - but if you are going to skew, skew hard. Adjust the numbers if you want to compare with 3*30 boyz)
As I see it such a list is more flexible, less effected by morale, faster and more lethal. You have 135 bodies on the table (plus 500ish more points) to do stuff with, which I think is a horde. With the loss of Green Tide its unclear what the point of 30 Boyz in a unit is.

But is such a list meta? No. Because I think its *still* too slow. Win rates going second against any heavy shooting list would likely be horrendous. And it likely doesn't consistently do enough damage when going first - and can therefore just bounce against so-called mid-table lists. Its not that you can't win a game with it - but you are unlikely to win a sequence of games at a major tournament. And regular Boyz have even more problems. Without fundamentally changing what a Boy "is", I think all you can do is make them more and more resilient. So lists need to take dedicated anti-Boyz units (and the more you skew, the more specialised these become), or risk being run over.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 13:33:30


Post by: SemperMortis


 alextroy wrote:
I think it can be safely said that Ork Boyz are overly expensive while the key buggies are undercosted. That won't necessarily fix the problem unless they make Boyz 6 points given how badly Morale messes them up.


At 6ppm all you will have done is make boyz cheaper so you might see 1-3 MSU boyz units as a troops tax...not much else. Morale is the biggest issue and its quickly followed by the fact that Blast weapons got a hefty buff against hordes.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Well 1st no matter what, Orks needs a LD buff of huge proportions.
Do that first then see if there are more problems (there are but lets see if there are others before changing).


Agreed. I don't think Boyz would be in as bad a place if their leadership wasn't horrendous.. Though I do have to point out that at 9ppm they are too expensive for what little they bring to the table. T5 sounds great, but a T5 with a 6+ save has about the same survival chance against a bolter as a T3 with a 4+ save.

Jarms48 wrote:
Boys and Beast Snagga Boys could probably go down 1 point per model. Gretchin could probably go back to a 6+ save again, or buff their support characters.
Kommandos probably need to go up by minimum 2, possibly 4, they're far too good for their cost.
Boyz could go down 3ppm and they still wouldn't be taken except in MSU because of the morale issues. Grots could go back to 6+ save and regain Obsec and they still wouldn't be taken except as MSU troop tax because they serve no purpose except as a token objective holder/action taker.

And if you nerfed Kommandos with a 20-40% price increase they would disappear from competitive play and be replaced by Stormboyz. Kommandos are good where they are, they are situational in their durability and dmg output. They require terrain to be effective.

Dudeface wrote:
Points aren't the main problem, as mentioned elsewhere the morale losses are what's hitting hard, but they also don't want to just make them functionally immune to morale again as that's a poor design choice.

You mean like Thousand sons are? Or all Space Marines? Or SoB? Or Dark Eldar? Or etc etc etc. If you are going to implement Morale as an important characteristic you have to do it from the start of the edition, not halfway through it. Orkz are literally the only faction at the competitive scene who give a damn about Morale.

Spoletta wrote:
Troops should work closely to the faction theme.
As such, IMO the correct fix is:
Boyz units automatically pass combat attrition tests during the first turn of WAAAGH.
Doesn't make them immune to morale, except during that one big turn where you go all out.
Wouldn't help them much if anything at all. As Jid mentioned, but also the fact that if you go 2nd you are soaking up the worst part of Morale before you even get a chance to call WAAAAGH meaning you turn 1 lose the game because you lost 45% more casualties to morale than you would have.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
As far as morale goes, an Ork boy is LD6, and the unit Nob makes it LD7.

How about adding a clause to mob rule, changing it to:
While this unit is within 6" of a friendly <CLAN> MOB unit that is not under half strength, this unit is never considered to be under half strength. If that same friendly <CLAN> MOB unit contains an equal or greater number of models than this unit, add +1 to this units LD score.

Nobz mobs and Meganobz gain the following:
Bully Boyz
Models in this unit count as two models for the purposes of Mob Rule.
Then add a +1 LD aura to Warbosses and Beastbosses.
Then you have effectively LD 9 as long as they're around each other and their bosses, and they count as over half strength.
And then they could probably have a point reduction.


That would just encourage MSU boyz at most. If I bring a blob of 30 and lose 10 I basically auto-fail morale.



Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 15:26:40


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Hankovitch wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

You just horde vehicles or land lol, it’s a horde no matter what, compared to everyone else at least.


Right. Nine ork vehicles in an army is a "horde," while nine vehicles in a Space Marine or Drukhari army is an "elite force."

Well, buggies are essentially sm vehicles. Real speed freeks is loads of bikers with battlewagons, and classic buggies which were like 40 points.

Killa Kans are also like 40 points, you put out a lot of em.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And since third edition, orks have ignored leadership for the most part. Leadership was always tied to mob size.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 15:42:22


Post by: Hankovitch


The biggest problem is that there is no space in 40k for a unit with a 6+ save that will end up standing anywhere on the battlefield aside from behind LOS blocking terrain. It will get instantly massacred because--oh look, this again--there are too many units with high accuracy, high lethality, >24" shooting on battlefields that are literally shrinking. Who cannot be tied in melee, are immune to morale, blah blah blah.

Boyz were only useful in 8th because, between Mob Rule and Green tide, you could sometimes drown control points in more bodies than the opponent could kill. They had no other tactical use--they were never a combat threat on par with their points cost.

The game will have to be changed to make room for ork boyz; boyz cannot be changed to be effective in the current game.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 16:28:44


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Hankovitch wrote:
The biggest problem is that there is no space in 40k for a unit with a 6+ save that will end up standing anywhere on the battlefield aside from behind LOS blocking terrain. It will get instantly massacred because--oh look, this again--there are too many units with high accuracy, high lethality, >24" shooting on battlefields that are literally shrinking. Who cannot be tied in melee, are immune to morale, blah blah blah.

Boyz were only useful in 8th because, between Mob Rule and Green tide, you could sometimes drown control points in more bodies than the opponent could kill. They had no other tactical use--they were never a combat threat on par with their points cost.

The game will have to be changed to make room for ork boyz; boyz cannot be changed to be effective in the current game.


Well, back in 8th they had a 5++ from kff, like they’ve gotten since back in 4th. Orks had ways to mitigate their weaknesses through their bosses, meks, and psykers, but the 9th authors bungled it all up.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 18:10:34


Post by: Dudeface


SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Points aren't the main problem, as mentioned elsewhere the morale losses are what's hitting hard, but they also don't want to just make them functionally immune to morale again as that's a poor design choice.

You mean like Thousand sons are? Or all Space Marines? Or SoB? Or Dark Eldar? Or etc etc etc. If you are going to implement Morale as an important characteristic you have to do it from the start of the edition, not halfway through it. Orkz are literally the only faction at the competitive scene who give a damn about Morale.


That's a weird stance to take. You're arguing boyz need to be made better because they're not competitive, then saying that they're the only meta army that cares about morale due to the boyz they're not taking?

But no, 10 man marine units aren't that susceptible to morale checks, or msu eldar units, or sisters who can manipulate dice

The fact is the only 9th ed book that can even field a 30 man unit is orks I believe? Cultists aren't worth it even ignoring the fact they're equally vulnerable to morale, silver tides also don't like taking heavy losses due to morale.

But removing an inherent inbuilt deterrent to large units just to make a large unit stronger isn't the best idea in the world. Give a mitigating factor or a way to help a unit regrow or something, but anything approaching morale immunity isn't clever.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 18:13:20


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Orks have been effectively immune to morale until they fall to less than ten guys since 3rd lol.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 18:14:39


Post by: Daedalus81


There isn't a huge gap between T5 6++/6+++ and T4 3+ when staring down bolters.

Making Boyz too cheap and/or too reliable will open up those force multipliers into something that is too strong for the mission set.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 18:31:22


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Daedalus81 wrote:
There isn't a huge gap between T5 6++/6+++ and T4 3+ when staring down bolters.


What is it when staring down lasguns?


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 18:44:57


Post by: Daedalus81


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
There isn't a huge gap between T5 6++/6+++ and T4 3+ when staring down bolters.


What is it when staring down lasguns?




Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 18:48:20


Post by: Insectum7


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Orks have been effectively immune to morale until they fall to less than ten guys since 3rd lol.
^I second this.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 19:03:00


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


 Daedalus81 wrote:
There isn't a huge gap between T5 6++/6+++ and T4 3+ when staring down bolters.

Making Boyz too cheap and/or too reliable will open up those force multipliers into something that is too strong for the mission set.

Gotta keep in mind the morale, and the slow speed.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 19:06:59


Post by: Daedalus81


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
There isn't a huge gap between T5 6++/6+++ and T4 3+ when staring down bolters.

Making Boyz too cheap and/or too reliable will open up those force multipliers into something that is too strong for the mission set.

Gotta keep in mind the morale, and the slow speed.


Absolutely - just saying that it's easy to go too far.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 19:17:33


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
There isn't a huge gap between T5 6++/6+++ and T4 3+ when staring down bolters.


What is it when staring down lasguns?




What are the numbers on this, deaths due to the weapon? How many shots to kill X number? Obviously not, but it isn't easy to infer the units on these numbers.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 19:31:12


Post by: the_scotsman


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
There isn't a huge gap between T5 6++/6+++ and T4 3+ when staring down bolters.

Making Boyz too cheap and/or too reliable will open up those force multipliers into something that is too strong for the mission set.

Gotta keep in mind the morale, and the slow speed.


You also have to keep in mind the competitive mindset.

Daed's concern here is from a strictly competitive standpoint: where the game of warhammer 40,000 is a game the sole objective of which is to score a higher number of points thru primary and secondary objectives from the grand tournament pack than one's opponent.

An Ork Boy that stands absolutely zero chance of making it all the way across no-man's land to an opponent's units and killing them, but who CAN highly efficiently survive no-LOS and flyer firepower from behind obscuring cover camping on objectives is, from a competitive play standpoint, a highly successful ork boy.

but its very much not what casual ork players want them to do. Getting to and fighting and killing the opponent's list is secondary to winning from a competitive standpoint, but is 'the real point' to most casual players.

I'm very much of the current opinion that the main issue GW is having with light infantry in both their game systems is that they desperately, DESPERATELY do not want to create rules that allow their players to buy fewer models, but they also have to grapple with the fact that a light infantry based army gets a tremendous advantage when they occupy board space.

The current situation (where almost no light infantry unit has a prayer of winning in a fight with a similarly point-costed elite infantry unit, let alone a large vehicle or monster) is an attempt to square the circle that is the inherent advantages of board footprint size and model count. And I think it's unsatisfying for everyone tbh, except for those that really love the fantasy of their elite units carving through lesser units by the dozens with ease.

But you could retain that AND reduce the model count burden for light infantry AND reduce their crazy board footprint/objective control power by introducing respawning 'endless horde' mechanics to units like orks, gretchin, guardsmen, daemons, cultists, etc.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 20:07:05


Post by: Daedalus81


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What are the numbers on this, deaths due to the weapon? How many shots to kill X number? Obviously not, but it isn't easy to infer the units on these numbers.


Just wounds caused by 100 shots per weapon. Each row is intendent of each other and it's devoid of any point efficiencies, availability of weapons, or anything like that.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 20:31:36


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What are the numbers on this, deaths due to the weapon? How many shots to kill X number? Obviously not, but it isn't easy to infer the units on these numbers.


Just wounds caused by 100 shots per weapon. Each row is intendent of each other and it's devoid of any point efficiencies, availability of weapons, or anything like that.


So essentially I was right - T5 6+/6+++ is way worse against lasguns than the Marine profile (more than twice as bad)


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 20:42:52


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


The entire point of green tide/ lasgun tide/ bug tide is to just kinda clog the board, it’s strong because it’s the gimmick of three factions


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 20:46:05


Post by: Tyel


No one cares about lasguns.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 20:46:54


Post by: SemperMortis


Tyel wrote:

On paper nothing stops people showing up with lists consisting of say 3*15 Kommandos, 3*15 Storm Boyz and 3*15 Burna Boyz. Which I think would be considerably better than say 150 boyz. (Okay this might be too much on both counts - but if you are going to skew, skew hard. Adjust the numbers if you want to compare with 3*30 boyz)
As I see it such a list is more flexible, less effected by morale, faster and more lethal. You have 135 bodies on the table (plus 500ish more points) to do stuff with, which I think is a horde. With the loss of Green Tide its unclear what the point of 30 Boyz in a unit is.


In a competitive game the thing stopping you is the simple fact of 11+ models. Put it this way, 2 units of stormboyz. 1 unit is 10 strong, the other is 15 strong. Each get hit with a Battlecannon. It shoots twice (grinding advance) Against the unit of 10 that averages 7 shots, 3.5 hits and 2.3 dead Stormboyz. Against the unit of 15 its 12 shots, 6 hits and 4 dead Stormboyz. Unit 1 suffers likely 2 casualties and only fails morale on a roll of a 6, unit 2 suffers 4 casualties and fails morale on a 4+. Failing morale is auto 1 casualty and likely 1 more from attrition for both. So you have a 1/6th chance to lose 2 models or a 1/2 chance to lose 2 models. So what is stopping you from taking larger units? 9th edition game mechanics and bad LD of all ork units.

Dudeface wrote:

That's a weird stance to take. You're arguing boyz need to be made better because they're not competitive, then saying that they're the only meta army that cares about morale due to the boyz they're not taking?

But no, 10 man marine units aren't that susceptible to morale checks, or msu eldar units, or sisters who can manipulate dice
The fact is the only 9th ed book that can even field a 30 man unit is orks I believe? Cultists aren't worth it even ignoring the fact they're equally vulnerable to morale, silver tides also don't like taking heavy losses due to morale.
But removing an inherent inbuilt deterrent to large units just to make a large unit stronger isn't the best idea in the world. Give a mitigating factor or a way to help a unit regrow or something, but anything approaching morale immunity isn't clever.


Sorry, I mean Orkz in general are the only faction that gives a damn about morale. I build all my lists with Morale factored into every one of my decisions. Why am I taking only 1 mek gun per battery? Because LD4 means If I lose 1 model in the unit, I will have a 50% chance to lose a 2nd to morale. Why aren't my Kommando/Trukkboy units bigger than 10? Because thats the smallest unit size they can be taken in and get their full abilities out of and is still small enough to mitigate morale and Blast rules. etc etc etc.

I wouldn't say remove morale as a game mechanic, I am just saying implement it fairly across the board. Right now you have entire factions which are functionally Immune to morale where as Orkz are the only faction that is highly susceptible to it. I'm sure there are others but at the moment orkz are also the only faction I know of which actively hurt themselves from morale. Both our stratagem to pass morale and Grot abilities actively hurt us.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
There isn't a huge gap between T5 6++/6+++ and T4 3+ when staring down bolters.
Making Boyz too cheap and/or too reliable will open up those force multipliers into something that is too strong for the mission set.


I would say there is a huge gap. To kill an Ork boy with a 6++ and a 6+++ takes 6.48 bolter shots. 6.48 shots, is 4.32 hits, 1.44 wounds, 6++ brings it to 1.2 unsaved wounds and 6+++ brings it to 1 dead Ork. To inflict 1dmg to a Marine takes 9 Bolter shots, 9 shots is 6 hits, 3 wounds and 1 failed armor save, so to kill 1 Marine takes 18 bolter shots. For an ork boy to get a 6++ and a 6+++ requires a 70pt painboy and likely a 115pt Big Mek in mega armor with a KFF. A Space Marine squad at T4 3+ with 2 wounds at 90pts, a single 10 man unit of Boyz with a 6++ and a 6+++ is 90+70+115 for 275pts. Realistically you could easily congo line 4-5 mobz of boyz into this, but you still wouldn't want those bigger than 10 for morale/blast reasons, So lets say 5. Thats 450pts of Boyz plus 185 for buffing characters. so 635pts for 52 models with those stats. You can get 35 Marines for that same price. Orkz end up with 54 T5 6+ wounds and 6 T5 2+ wounds. Marines on the other hand have 70 T4 3+ wounds with points left over. As mentioned it takes 9 bolter shots per Marine wound, so to kill 35 Marines would take 630 shots, to kill the 50 boyz would take 324. You could literally lower their price 2ppm and give them that many more boyz and they would still be less durable point for point than those Marines.

I do agree with your general point, but the problem is that the "Force multipliers" orkz have right now are TRASH. A 6+ invuln is garbage because hardly anyone was wasting AP shots on ork boyz, and even if they were its not that big of a buff, the 6+++ is even more garbage because if you were shooting AP- shots into orkz it likely had 2+ dmg because you also built your list to contend with Marines meaning to save even 1 Ork boy you would have to roll 2 6s in a row.

I don't want Boyz broken, but it would be nice if I didn't feel obligated to take Patrol detachments or other types of detachments that cost CP because taking boyz is a huge handicap.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 20:51:38


Post by: Amishprn86


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
There isn't a huge gap between T5 6++/6+++ and T4 3+ when staring down bolters.


What is it when staring down lasguns?




As stated by others, what are these numbers even representing?


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 20:53:59


Post by: Jidmah


 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
There isn't a huge gap between T5 6++/6+++ and T4 3+ when staring down bolters.


What is it when staring down lasguns?




As stated by others, what are these numbers even representing?


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Just wounds caused by 100 shots per weapon. Each row is intendent of each other and it's devoid of any point efficiencies, availability of weapons, or anything like that.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 20:59:47


Post by: Insectum7


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What are the numbers on this, deaths due to the weapon? How many shots to kill X number? Obviously not, but it isn't easy to infer the units on these numbers.


Just wounds caused by 100 shots per weapon. Each row is intendent of each other and it's devoid of any point efficiencies, availability of weapons, or anything like that.
But each line also appears to use BS too? I can only reach 16.7 lasgun wounds against T3 5+ if I calculate .5 to hit as well. Irritating chart, as BS changes. Bolt Rifles are on BS 3+ . Which BS is the Heavy Bolter using, for example?

In fact the Heavy Bolter math appears to be wrong? Against T3 5+ I get 27.6 with a BS 4+, and 36.8 against BS 3+. Chart has it at 44.4?

In fact Assault Cannon appears wrong as well. .666 x . 83 x .83 (x100) = 45.8, not 55.5

Bolt Rifle scores the same number of wounds regardless of Light Cover against a 6+ save? That looks a lil sus.

What the feth do the colors even mean?

Daed, your chart sucks!!!!


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 21:14:47


Post by: Amishprn86


 Jidmah wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
There isn't a huge gap between T5 6++/6+++ and T4 3+ when staring down bolters.


What is it when staring down lasguns?




As stated by others, what are these numbers even representing?


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Just wounds caused by 100 shots per weapon. Each row is intendent of each other and it's devoid of any point efficiencies, availability of weapons, or anything like that.


Thanks, didn't see that.

So a boy is 9pts, 2 will be 18pts which is around marine troop cost, outside of cover with 6++/6+++ they are slightly better per wound, inside cover the are about 40% worst.

Honestly thats not that bad for just wounds, the problem is everything else.

Wyches are 12ppm and are t3 1w, 6++ (4++ in combat) they 100% need a transport, which together for a 10man is 225pts at least, so from a DE PoV 25 boys is equal to that. The problem is Boys needs moral, which is why I said at first to please give them a big moral boost, like over 10 only 1 can ever run away or something.

But not having play Orks my PoV could be off.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 21:22:06


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Just give orks old mob rule and ‘ere we go, they were fine and I honestly have no idea why they were nerfed.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 21:24:49


Post by: Daedalus81


 the_scotsman wrote:


You also have to keep in mind the competitive mindset.

Daed's concern here is from a strictly competitive standpoint: where the game of warhammer 40,000 is a game the sole objective of which is to score a higher number of points thru primary and secondary objectives from the grand tournament pack than one's opponent.

An Ork Boy that stands absolutely zero chance of making it all the way across no-man's land to an opponent's units and killing them, but who CAN highly efficiently survive no-LOS and flyer firepower from behind obscuring cover camping on objectives is, from a competitive play standpoint, a highly successful ork boy.

but its very much not what casual ork players want them to do. Getting to and fighting and killing the opponent's list is secondary to winning from a competitive standpoint, but is 'the real point' to most casual players.

I'm very much of the current opinion that the main issue GW is having with light infantry in both their game systems is that they desperately, DESPERATELY do not want to create rules that allow their players to buy fewer models, but they also have to grapple with the fact that a light infantry based army gets a tremendous advantage when they occupy board space.

The current situation (where almost no light infantry unit has a prayer of winning in a fight with a similarly point-costed elite infantry unit, let alone a large vehicle or monster) is an attempt to square the circle that is the inherent advantages of board footprint size and model count. And I think it's unsatisfying for everyone tbh, except for those that really love the fantasy of their elite units carving through lesser units by the dozens with ease.

But you could retain that AND reduce the model count burden for light infantry AND reduce their crazy board footprint/objective control power by introducing respawning 'endless horde' mechanics to units like orks, gretchin, guardsmen, daemons, cultists, etc.


Sort of. I just want to avoid games where people take 180 models. It's pretty boring and it is a skew like 4 knights are a skew. It takes 1,200 bolt rifle shots to kill 180 T5 6++/6+++ and a bit over 800 when they have no protection so the "real" figure is probably somewhere around 1,000. That's the equivalent of 100 marines double tapping every single round for five rounds if absolutely none of them die and morale isn't a factor. But then most marine lists have maybe 20 such marines.

You have melee and other incidental anti-infantry weapons like on a plasma dread, but those platforms are not always efficiently anti-infantry themselves. ( Personally I have a Gladiator Reaper in my marine army that I'm building. )





Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 21:30:10


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


I kinda like it when people take loads of models, my favorite game of 40k was when I ran green tide against a valhallan conscript list.
And that whole bolt rifle thing, that’s an intentional thing for green tide. In the 4th dex for orks it recommends green tide explicitly to harass marine players who have less shots than you do bodies.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 21:32:55


Post by: Insectum7


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I kinda like it when people take loads of models, my favorite game of 40k was when I ran green tide against a valhallan conscript list.
And that whole bolt rifle thing, that’s an intentional thing for green tide. In the 4th dex for orks it recommends green tide explicitly to harass marine players who have less shots than you do bodies.
+1, Hordes are fun things to play against, I find.

And @Daed, I'm still real concerned about the data you posted in that chart.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 21:35:21


Post by: Daedalus81


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What are the numbers on this, deaths due to the weapon? How many shots to kill X number? Obviously not, but it isn't easy to infer the units on these numbers.


Just wounds caused by 100 shots per weapon. Each row is intendent of each other and it's devoid of any point efficiencies, availability of weapons, or anything like that.
But each line also appears to use BS too? I can only reach 16.7 lasgun wounds against T3 5+ if I calculate .5 to hit as well. Irritating chart, as BS changes. Bolt Rifles are on BS 3+ . Which BS is the Heavy Bolter using, for example?

In fact the Heavy Bolter math appears to be wrong? Against T3 5+ I get 27.6 with a BS 4+, and 36.8 against BS 3+. Chart has it at 44.4?

In fact Assault Cannon appears wrong as well. .666 x . 83 x .83 (x100) = 45.8, not 55.5

Bolt Rifle scores the same number of wounds regardless of Light Cover against a 6+ save? That looks a lil sus.

What the feth do the colors even mean?

Daed, your chart sucks!!!!


No! Your...chart... sucks!

Colors are just gradient highlights for the row to show best to worst.

BS is in there, because brain.

Here's a fixed one. I quit coffee cold turkey, so I blame that.



Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 21:41:49


Post by: Insectum7


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I quit coffee cold turkey, so I blame that.
Oooh that's a tough one. I did that about a month ago. Forgiven.

Calculating without BS gives a more clear picture of durability, and can be used to get a sense of similar weapons held in different hands. But if you're gonna leave it in the calculation, do label it. A Heavy Bolter is weilded by both BS 3+ and 4+ hands.

More of an opinion, either drop or label the meaning of the colors.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 21:52:04


Post by: Daedalus81


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I quit coffee cold turkey, so I blame that.
Oooh that's a tough one. I did that about a month ago. Forgiven.

Calculating without BS gives a more clear picture of durability, and can be used to get a sense of similar weapons held in different hands. But if you're gonna leave it in the calculation, do label it. A Heavy Bolter is weilded by both BS 3+ and 4+ hands.

More of an opinion, either drop or label the meaning of the colors.


Yea I just left it in, because the only stuff that matters are the outcomes relative to each other regardless of what's firing it. So it can go, but I'm lazy right now.

Thanks for taking the time to guy check me and I appreciate the feedback.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 21:52:18


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sort of. I just want to avoid games where people take 180 models.


500-1k point games can be quite fun, I find. Additional, playing powerlevel tends to discourage hordes (I've noticed) since elites get their weapon upgrades for free but extra models cost PL.

Oh who am I kidding, 2k matched is the Gold Standard™.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 22:10:42


Post by: Insectum7


 Daedalus81 wrote:

Thanks for taking the time to guy check me. . .
Is that like a kilt check?


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 22:36:00


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sort of. I just want to avoid games where people take 180 models.


500-1k point games can be quite fun, I find. Additional, playing powerlevel tends to discourage hordes (I've noticed) since elites get their weapon upgrades for free but extra models cost PL.

Oh who am I kidding, 2k matched is the Gold Standard™.


Power level is just horrible for some factions. I played a crusade against a guard friend with my orks, that guy probably had hundreds of points of wargear all for free. All I got was a zoggin rokkit that hits on 6’s if I move.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 22:38:15


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sort of. I just want to avoid games where people take 180 models.


500-1k point games can be quite fun, I find. Additional, playing powerlevel tends to discourage hordes (I've noticed) since elites get their weapon upgrades for free but extra models cost PL.

Oh who am I kidding, 2k matched is the Gold Standard™.


Power level is just horrible for some factions. I played a crusade against a guard friend with my orks, that guy probably had hundreds of points of wargear all for free. All I got was a zoggin rokkit that hits on 6’s if I move.


Interesting, I tend to find one should enforce WYSIWYG with PL, and play some games as points (also enforcing WYSIWYG). That's informal in these parts, but typically results in models having sane wargear (for the points games) even in the PL games


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have also found that most PL is balanced around those extra points. My Russ list is 108 PL but around 1900 pts


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 22:41:28


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Orks just don’t get a lot of wargear value, not unless you’re spamming deff dreads, nobz, and meganobz. Everything else gets a very small selection, which is kinda sad.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/17 23:04:46


Post by: Eihnlazer


They just need to do something about the morale issue and boyz are fine at their current points.

Honestly not sure why they took breaking heads off the nobs and made it a strat, big mistake and misplay.

Go back to it being standard on all nobz. If you fail morale, the nob kills D3 boyz in addition to the one that ran.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 00:37:43


Post by: Jarms48


ccs wrote:

Ooh, so buy 9 orks & get the 10th free.
Yes, that will solve the problem & encourage the return of hordes of Boyz to the table.....

Oh, wait. It won't. All you'll have are slightly cheaper Boyz not being used.


Just play them like Guard? Lots of 10 man squads, which makes morale a much smaller issue.

If they were 8 points each. You could take a brigade with 12 boy squads for 960 points. Then take things like Kommandos, Mek Guns, etc to fill out the brigade. Or just go triple battalion, some Ork players were doing triple outriders for the buggies. That's 18 boy squads for 1440.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

Power level is just horrible for some factions. I played a crusade against a guard friend with my orks, that guy probably had hundreds of points of wargear all for free. All I got was a zoggin rokkit that hits on 6’s if I move.


It's not that bad each PL is approximately 20 points. A Leman Russ is 10 power level, so roughly 200 points. A standard Leman Russ in points is 160. It's only really bad if they take literally every single upgrade and every single vehicle upgrade.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 01:23:47


Post by: SemperMortis


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Just give orks old mob rule and ‘ere we go, they were fine and I honestly have no idea why they were nerfed.
This wouldn't be a bad solution. My guess as to the reason behind the nerf was because so many Marine players were frothing at the mouth at the idea of orkz being T5. You had people on here losing their minds screaming orkz were going to be the most OP army of the edition because boyz were so competitive in 8th. BTW, in 8th, boys were only competitive when spammed with ghaz and only as a "Hold objectives" army rather than a competitive army. We just took more bodies than could be easily killed.
 Eihnlazer wrote:
They just need to do something about the morale issue and boyz are fine at their current points.
Honestly not sure why they took breaking heads off the nobs and made it a strat, big mistake and misplay.
Go back to it being standard on all nobz. If you fail morale, the nob kills D3 boyz in addition to the one that ran.


Problem with that is you are losing effectively 3 boyz per turn to morale as opposed to 3-5 depending on mob size.

If you run multiple blobs of boyz (lets say 5 units of 20) than this would end up costing you on average 15 boyz a turn or 135pts dead to Morale. You can not have an army effectively lose 5-10% of its army every turn to a mechanic that nobody else is concerned with.

Jarms48 wrote:

Just play them like Guard? Lots of 10 man squads, which makes morale a much smaller issue.
If they were 8 points each. You could take a brigade with 12 boy squads for 960 points. Then take things like Kommandos, Mek Guns, etc to fill out the brigade. Or just go triple battalion, some Ork players were doing triple outriders for the buggies. That's 18 boy squads for 1440.


Guardsmen are taken because they are incredibly cheap and easily buffed to double their firepower or movement with relative ease from a 35pt character. Boyz on the other hand are extremely limited in their buffs, they are incredibly slow, and they have no ranged threat to speak of. Shootas are a complete joke, sticking a 1 per 10 special/heavy weapon on a unit doesn't fix that problem either. So yeah, you could take 12-18 MSU Boyz squads but the game would fundamentally end turn 3 when the orkz finally reached combat just to find out not enough lived to pose a credible threat to the enemy.

A Unit of Trukkboyz is only a competitive choice (and i'm lonely in the belief that they are competitive) because they have a massive turn 1 threat range (max 38, average 30). But even then they are still just boyz. 9 Trukk boyz and a double Choppa nob end up dealing 5.6ish dmg to a Marine unit. Not bad for a 90pt unit, except that with the trukk its 160pts.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 08:00:16


Post by: Jidmah


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Interesting, I tend to find one should enforce WYSIWYG with PL, and play some games as points (also enforcing WYSIWYG). That's informal in these parts, but typically results in models having sane wargear (for the points games) even in the PL games


For once, I fully agree with you. PL works for when people are bringing the models they own and play them exactly as they are built. And in that case it works great for most parts. The only thing we have house-ruled for our crusades is that you buy models on a model-by-model basis, people didn't want to pay for a full 5 extra marines for bringing their god's numbers.

If people are optimizing to get the most out of PL, be it by proxy/count-as, TTS or actually building a ton of new models, it completely falls apart for some armies. When you play two "modern" armies (primaris, ad mech, harleqins, death guard) against each other, you rarely notice the difference. They have next to no wargear choices anyways. But for books who have armories of ranged weapons, the gap can be massive.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 08:12:53


Post by: Blackie


SemperMortis wrote:


A Unit of Trukkboyz is only a competitive choice (and i'm lonely in the belief that they are competitive) because they have a massive turn 1 threat range (max 38, average 30). But even then they are still just boyz. 9 Trukk boyz and a double Choppa nob end up dealing 5.6ish dmg to a Marine unit. Not bad for a 90pt unit, except that with the trukk its 160pts.


They're good tarpitters since they can't deal a significant amount of damage, but overall a pretty strong choice. I bring two squads in my vehicles based lists everytime.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 08:21:04


Post by: Jidmah


I'd expect good tarpitters to actually prevent units from fighting themselves out of their grasp, but I wouldn't really attribute that ability to boyz. Unless you charged GEQ, they tend to be dead by your next turn.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 09:43:37


Post by: Blackie


I was thinking about shooty units with no significant melee abilities, that can't shoot if they fall back.

Some armies don't have tons of bodies to screen them and with the massive threat range it can be done.

Removing a few annoying models, or preventing them from firing for one turn is enough for that role IMHO. Next turn trukk boyz will probably be dead but will also draw the attention away from other units.

Charging GEQs or other cheap chaff is quite useless.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 10:14:36


Post by: PaddyMick


If I could make one change it would be to be able to take units of 5. If I could make a big change, I would love to see the old warband organisation of mixed clans within one army, without having to take extra detachments.



Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 10:43:26


Post by: Jidmah


 Blackie wrote:
I was thinking about shooty units with no significant melee abilities, that can't shoot if they fall back.

Some armies don't have tons of bodies to screen them and with the massive threat range it can be done.

Removing a few annoying models, or preventing them from firing for one turn is enough for that role IMHO. Next turn trukk boyz will probably be dead but will also draw the attention away from other units.

Charging GEQs or other cheap chaff is quite useless.


That's not "being good at tarpitting" though, that's just being a unit. In your post you could replace "boyz" for almost every single unit orks can field and it would remain true.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 15:12:38


Post by: addnid


Jarms48 wrote:
Boys and Beast Snagga Boys could probably go down 1 point per model. Gretchin could probably go back to a 6+ save again, or buff their support characters.

Kommandos probably need to go up by minimum 2, possibly 4, they're far too good for their cost.



For players who do not know how to screen, or can't be bothered to build an army with screens, perhaps. But screening ain't so hard so perhaps check a few youtube videos, then face kommandos, and see if you still want to nerf them. They are fine as they are IMHO.

More to the topic, I disagree with one of the posters here who said even at 7 ppm we would see only msu boyz. I for one would try a 90 goff boyz + 45 blood axe kommando list right away. 660 with PKs and 510 for fully kitted kommandos seems rather good to me. Add in 2*10 trukboyz for 280 and you have a neat little 1450 point package. Problem is GW doesn't want to see that package on the TT, because that is 135 models, and they clearly decided it wasn't good for the game they have in mind. So IMHO boyz maybe in 10th ed.

UNLESS... The comparison with Imp guard squads makes me think that if we could move move move our boyz turn 1 then it would all work out, even at 9 PPM ? Would have to be blood axe boyz though if copying imp guard squads I guess (and we obvioulsy want Goff boyz don't we)

Perhaps for 9th we can ask santa for cheaper flash gitz, lootas, etc. That would really be what I want


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 22:46:46


Post by: SemperMortis


 addnid wrote:

For players who do not know how to screen, or can't be bothered to build an army with screens, perhaps. But screening ain't so hard so perhaps check a few youtube videos, then face kommandos, and see if you still want to nerf them. They are fine as they are IMHO.

More to the topic, I disagree with one of the posters here who said even at 7 ppm we would see only msu boyz. I for one would try a 90 goff boyz + 45 blood axe kommando list right away. 660 with PKs and 510 for fully kitted kommandos seems rather good to me. Add in 2*10 trukboyz for 280 and you have a neat little 1450 point package. Problem is GW doesn't want to see that package on the TT, because that is 135 models, and they clearly decided it wasn't good for the game they have in mind. So IMHO boyz maybe in 10th ed.

UNLESS... The comparison with Imp guard squads makes me think that if we could move move move our boyz turn 1 then it would all work out, even at 9 PPM ? Would have to be blood axe boyz though if copying imp guard squads I guess (and we obvioulsy want Goff boyz don't we)

Perhaps for 9th we can ask santa for cheaper flash gitz, lootas, etc. That would really be what I want


Agree with you about Kommandos entirely. However, on 7ppm Boyz...nope I wouldn't take them still. Foot sloggin 90 boyz forward with morale issues is a recipe for disaster. Turn 1 you have almost no chance of a charge even if you rolled a 6' advance. That means your opponent at the very least has 1 full turn to blast the hell out of you. reducing each mob by 6 means you likely fail morale in all 3, and unless you spend 4CP you will then lose 15 more boyz to morale. So you end up losing half an entire mob to 1st turn morale, while your opponent only killed 18. Turn 2 if they get 1 more round of shooting its GG. Kill another 6 in each mob and they are now down to 13 models each, fail morale and 4-5 more run away bringing you down to about 8 boyz left or 24 in total. Thats just 2 rounds of shooting. And to kill 6 boyz isn't hard.

The only way that list works is if your opponent designates too much fire power to the Kommandos.

I personally would just like boyz to go to 8ppm and for old mob rule to be brought back. Even then they wouldn't be all that competitive, but they at least would stand a chance.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 22:48:55


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


At 8 with mob rule would be pretty bad still. Without perma adv/charge and no 5++, and no reliable easy charge da jumping, I think mob rule with boyz at 6 points would be fair.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 23:10:16


Post by: brainpsyk


SemperMortis wrote:


Agree with you about Kommandos entirely. However, on 7ppm Boyz...nope I wouldn't take them still. Foot sloggin 90 boyz forward with morale issues is a recipe for disaster. Turn 1 you have almost no chance of a charge even if you rolled a 6' advance. That means your opponent at the very least has 1 full turn to blast the hell out of you. reducing each mob by 6 means you likely fail morale in all 3, and unless you spend 4CP you will then lose 15 more boyz to morale. So you end up losing half an entire mob to 1st turn morale, while your opponent only killed 18. Turn 2 if they get 1 more round of shooting its GG. Kill another 6 in each mob and they are now down to 13 models each, fail morale and 4-5 more run away bringing you down to about 8 boyz left or 24 in total. Thats just 2 rounds of shooting. And to kill 6 boyz isn't hard.

The only way that list works is if your opponent designates too much fire power to the Kommandos.

I personally would just like boyz to go to 8ppm and for old mob rule to be brought back. Even then they wouldn't be all that competitive, but they at least would stand a chance.

Ork boys weren't taken because there were bad, it's just the other options are just sooo good. And what you're asking for is boyz to be invincible crossing a battlefield in 9th (low casualties and almost immune to morale).

Foot slogging almost anything in 9th is a bad idea, from marines, to guard, to even terminators. Unless the unit is built for durability (like DG) then against any shooting army footsloggers are going to get pummeled. That's why Orks take buggies, bikes, trukks, etc., the units to get across the board quickly and make your opponent focus on them. Then we need some stuff in the backfield & midfield to hold objectives, and your HS/Elites to continue to whittle down your enemy.

If you do take 90 boys and footslog them across the battlefield, then you take them in 30-boyz blobs & use the strat (that's what it is for). then your opponent has the choice of dealing with the 10 kommandos in their face or the 30-boys blob that's about to hit them.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/18 23:43:57


Post by: SemperMortis


brainpsyk wrote:

Ork boys weren't taken because there were bad, it's just the other options are just sooo good. And what you're asking for is boyz to be invincible crossing a battlefield in 9th (low casualties and almost immune to morale).

Foot slogging almost anything in 9th is a bad idea, from marines, to guard, to even terminators. Unless the unit is built for durability (like DG) then against any shooting army footsloggers are going to get pummeled. That's why Orks take buggies, bikes, trukks, etc., the units to get across the board quickly and make your opponent focus on them. Then we need some stuff in the backfield & midfield to hold objectives, and your HS/Elites to continue to whittle down your enemy.

If you do take 90 boys and footslog them across the battlefield, then you take them in 30-boyz blobs & use the strat (that's what it is for). then your opponent has the choice of dealing with the 10 kommandos in their face or the 30-boys blob that's about to hit them.

In competitive lists almost nobody is even taking Troops. Grots are absolute garbage at 5ppm and have worse morale than boyz and Boyz are garbage at 9ppm with morale issues. There aren't any "better" choices in the entire Troops choice slot. The option is A: Take bad unit that has no chance of making its points back, nor is it durable enough to hold objectives Or B: spend CP on detachments so you don't need troops.

So the "better" option is not taking ANY troops. And false, they aren't taken specifically because THEY SUCK. Nobody is asking for Boyz to be invincible crossing the battlefield, but at the moment Orkz are about the only faction that has to care about Morale. In 8th you could foot slog across the board because we had a good version of Mob Rule, a 5++ invuln from a KFF for relatively cheap and we had a 6+++ FNP from a painboy for cheap. Now? They are both bad options and boyz have massive morale issues. As far as "use the strat thats what it is for" ...no. 2CP to kill D3 of your boyz instead of 0 CP and kill 1 +1/6th of your boyz. That means you end up spending 2CP to save 2-3 boyz or 18-27pts...that isn't worth it in the slightest. Not to mention there isn't a reason to take them in blobs anymore since our buffs all got nerfed heavily. That is what this post is about, the fact that boyz suck right now and we miss them on the battlefield


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 00:54:47


Post by: Surtur


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What are the numbers on this, deaths due to the weapon? How many shots to kill X number? Obviously not, but it isn't easy to infer the units on these numbers.


Just wounds caused by 100 shots per weapon. Each row is intendent of each other and it's devoid of any point efficiencies, availability of weapons, or anything like that.
But each line also appears to use BS too? I can only reach 16.7 lasgun wounds against T3 5+ if I calculate .5 to hit as well. Irritating chart, as BS changes. Bolt Rifles are on BS 3+ . Which BS is the Heavy Bolter using, for example?

In fact the Heavy Bolter math appears to be wrong? Against T3 5+ I get 27.6 with a BS 4+, and 36.8 against BS 3+. Chart has it at 44.4?

In fact Assault Cannon appears wrong as well. .666 x . 83 x .83 (x100) = 45.8, not 55.5

Bolt Rifle scores the same number of wounds regardless of Light Cover against a 6+ save? That looks a lil sus.

What the feth do the colors even mean?

Daed, your chart sucks!!!!


No! Your...chart... sucks!

Colors are just gradient highlights for the row to show best to worst.

BS is in there, because brain.

Here's a fixed one. I quit coffee cold turkey, so I blame that.



The chart really isn't flattering if you start factoring in other aspects of the models being depicted. Orks get 11 wounds for 90 points and marines 10 per 90. Looks pretty good for the orks stacking buffs, but for morale, the marines count every 2 wounds as -1 which means after taking hits thwyre doing better. Then you have to factor in the other costs. A mek with KFF on the cheap runs 85 points and the painboy is another 70 which means 155 points minimum and an HQ and Elite slot ontop of the squad costs. If we distribute that over several squads, then great, but the boys can't all poke into the same 6" circle of board to get a FNP. Realistically you'll get 2-3 squads coverage for a turn or two so well call it an extra 50-75 points onto of the squad cost. Split the difference and you're paying almost 150 points to be as tough as 90 points of marines against the shots, worse in the morale and we haven't even touched the melee/firepower of the squads.

As troops primary role is hold a point, this makes them very poor as they are flimsy for the cost and their losses multiply easily making them even worse points per wound. Boyz need to drop 1 point at minimum and 2 is really ideal if they're going to stick with the morale.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 01:37:17


Post by: Daedalus81


 Surtur wrote:

The chart really isn't flattering if you start factoring in other aspects of the models being depicted. Orks get 11 wounds for 90 points and marines 10 per 90. Looks pretty good for the orks stacking buffs, but for morale, the marines count every 2 wounds as -1 which means after taking hits thwyre doing better. Then you have to factor in the other costs. A mek with KFF on the cheap runs 85 points and the painboy is another 70 which means 155 points minimum and an HQ and Elite slot ontop of the squad costs. If we distribute that over several squads, then great, but the boys can't all poke into the same 6" circle of board to get a FNP. Realistically you'll get 2-3 squads coverage for a turn or two so well call it an extra 50-75 points onto of the squad cost. Split the difference and you're paying almost 150 points to be as tough as 90 points of marines against the shots, worse in the morale and we haven't even touched the melee/firepower of the squads.

As troops primary role is hold a point, this makes them very poor as they are flimsy for the cost and their losses multiply easily making them even worse points per wound. Boyz need to drop 1 point at minimum and 2 is really ideal if they're going to stick with the morale.


It is point agnostic, because people are talking about lower points or other tweaks, which makes this hazy. And then you have to factor in how strong D2 against marines, which the Heavy Bolters demonstrates.

It's a very complex picture that isn't easy to demonstrate through math alone. High AP is wasted on boyz as are mortal wounds in general.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
Agree with you about Kommandos entirely. However, on 7ppm Boyz...nope I wouldn't take them still. Foot sloggin 90 boyz forward with morale issues is a recipe for disaster. Turn 1 you have almost no chance of a charge even if you rolled a 6' advance. That means your opponent at the very least has 1 full turn to blast the hell out of you. reducing each mob by 6 means you likely fail morale in all 3, and unless you spend 4CP you will then lose 15 more boyz to morale. So you end up losing half an entire mob to 1st turn morale, while your opponent only killed 18. Turn 2 if they get 1 more round of shooting its GG. Kill another 6 in each mob and they are now down to 13 models each, fail morale and 4-5 more run away bringing you down to about 8 boyz left or 24 in total. Thats just 2 rounds of shooting. And to kill 6 boyz isn't hard.

The only way that list works is if your opponent designates too much fire power to the Kommandos.

I personally would just like boyz to go to 8ppm and for old mob rule to be brought back. Even then they wouldn't be all that competitive, but they at least would stand a chance.


This is the kind of theory hammer that I think isn't realistic.

Here's a top placing Sisters list ( using new FAQ ):

Spoiler:
5 Sisters
10 Dominions with DBs that hurt marines more than boyz.
10 Retributors w/ MM
5 Retributors w/ HB
2 Rhinos
13 Sacresants
17 Repentia
5 Serpahim


There is hardly any shooting capable of downing enough boyz to be effective.

DE lists? No chance.

Here's a marine list:

Spoiler:
5 Incursors
20 VV
2 Volcons
10 Devs, 2 Grav, 6 MM
6 CV
Pod


The Volcons can affect two units at most. A marine list with two Plasma Redemptors and two Volcons will kill a handful more and is capable of doing what you say if they just ignore making their units vulnerable and the boyz are tossed with abandon.

Ork players can still be use Da Jump, but to reposition into low threat lanes for a later move to threaten more strongly.






Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 05:39:57


Post by: Jidmah


Both the chance to cast Da Jump as well as the chance to succeed a charge after jumping has gone down. It is just too unreliable to plan around now, making it a non-option for someone who is trying to win an event.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 11:59:47


Post by: Commissar Yarrork


 Jidmah wrote:

PL works for when people are bringing the models they own and play them exactly as they are built. And in that case it works great for most parts.

If people are optimizing to get the most out of PL, be it by proxy/count-as, TTS or actually building a ton of new models, it completely falls apart for some armies.

Man it'd be a real shame if when guard platoons were still a thing I ran max special weapon squads, max heavy weapons, maxed out options on vets and command squads...

Yeah when I play my guard using power level it kind of tips the scale despite WYSIWYG.

Edit: I think I have.... 18 flamers, 15 melta, 9 plasma, some heavy flamers, maybe 6 lascannon HWS and 3 autocannon, full upgrades on Russes...


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 12:10:26


Post by: Jidmah


To be fair, whatever you were running back then is probably horribly inefficient today anyways

For guard, the biggest "issue" is being able to slap the entire vehicle upgrade list and free lascannons/multi-meltas on everything. A dozen or so hunter-killer missiles do make a difference.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 13:59:19


Post by: Not Online!!!


Honestly?
Probably go for Orkboy, starting out with a shoota at 7ppm
Choppa and Slugga +1ppm

Change the general SV for orkboys to 5+.
Add an option to upgrade to ard boyzs for 1 ppm.



Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 14:11:12


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


Man, I love how this thread turned into a Data Visualization exam... why is the criticized guy the only one making charts?

Daedalus, thanks for providing the numbers (even if they were initially slightly incorrect/unclear). You don't have to do that, we should all appreciate that you always try to provide something quantitative to ground the discussion.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 15:31:08


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Man, I love how this thread turned into a Data Visualization exam... why is the criticized guy the only one making charts?

Daedalus, thanks for providing the numbers (even if they were initially slightly incorrect/unclear). You don't have to do that, we should all appreciate that you always try to provide something quantitative to ground the discussion.


Aww thanks.

Though I think people have been fine. Text always conveys a sharper tone than is usually intended.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 16:19:22


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly?
Probably go for Orkboy, starting out with a shoota at 7ppm
Choppa and Slugga +1ppm

Change the general SV for orkboys to 5+.
Add an option to upgrade to ard boyzs for 1 ppm.



Still too expensive imo, maybe if they got old mob rule thrown in. I’d keep the choppa slugga at 7 too, we don’t get nearly as many buffs as we got in 8th so they should just kinda be cheaper.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 17:18:22


Post by: Dudeface


The morale is meant to be a balancing factor against large units. Maybe the answer is to look at unit size buffs and leave morale alone?

Whilst at 25+ boyz they get 4+ save at range due to being a teeming mass, 20+ gets you +1 attack, 15+ increases dakkadakka weapons shots by 1. All of which are cumulative.

No price change, no change to morale, just scaling buffs to bigger units to make them scarier whilst also more vulnerable to their counters (blast and morale).


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 17:36:37


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Dudeface wrote:
The morale is meant to be a balancing factor against large units. Maybe the answer is to look at unit size buffs and leave morale alone?

Whilst at 25+ boyz they get 4+ save at range due to being a teeming mass, 20+ gets you +1 attack, 15+ increases dakkadakka weapons shots by 1. All of which are cumulative.

No price change, no change to morale, just scaling buffs to bigger units to make them scarier whilst also more vulnerable to their counters (blast and morale).


They’d still be terrible with that. Orks were always designed to not really care about morale (unless you’re grots). With orks you should be actively encouraged to just take massive units, it’s kinda how they work. And having those buffs at those levels would be terrible, it’s just have people chipping off 5 boyz off every squad. If you wanted to go with that approach have it be for having 11+ boyz, so people have to focus down an entire mob. I’d then also bring back mob up so people can’t just leave little islands of boyz.

That’s all really complicated though, much simpler to just bring back boyz being cheap, then revert kff and weirdboy to 8th.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 19:04:17


Post by: Jidmah


Eh, 8th wasn't that great either. Those mobs of 30 were forced artificially, in prior editions mobs of 20 were doing the job just a well.

Ideally, an ork running a Waaagh! list should at least consider running boyz as an option and not avoid running them at all costs. However, the extreme of 150+ boyz just being a list on their own was just as bad. Most people neither like playing those lists, nor do people enjoy playing against them.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 20:18:05


Post by: Dudeface


 Jidmah wrote:
Eh, 8th wasn't that great either. Those mobs of 30 were forced artificially, in prior editions mobs of 20 were doing the job just a well.

Ideally, an ork running a Waaagh! list should at least consider running boyz as an option and not avoid running them at all costs. However, the extreme of 150+ boyz just being a list on their own was just as bad. Most people neither like playing those lists, nor do people enjoy playing against them.


Pretty much sums it up, it seems better to make the boyz worth their increased point cost, fewer models to buy as an ork player and less draining to play against. Orks should be a credible scary threat, not just a pita because they're cheap and immune to morale.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/19 20:31:50


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


I kinda like having just cheap bastards to swarm out. Maybe keep the ridiculous 9 point lads, but also have cheap 6 point yoofs.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/20 01:38:40


Post by: Jarms48


 addnid wrote:
For players who do not know how to screen, or can't be bothered to build an army with screens, perhaps. But screening ain't so hard so perhaps check a few youtube videos, then face kommandos, and see if you still want to nerf them. They are fine as they are IMHO.


The only way to screen out Kommandos is to have your own infiltrators. Something not every army is capable of, or don't have competitive options that can do it. If you don't have your own infiltrators, you've lost the game already. Kommandos can move block you out of objectives T1 and you'll miss primaries command phase T2 because of them, if you're lucky you might be able to get on the mid-field objectives for primaries in command phase T3. That's if the rest of the Ork army hasn't capitalized on that.

The point is, Kommandos are far too cheap for what they do right now and Boys are too expensive.

 addnid wrote:
UNLESS... The comparison with Imp guard squads makes me think that if we could move move move our boyz turn 1 then it would all work out, even at 9 PPM ? Would have to be blood axe boyz though if copying imp guard squads I guess (and we obvioulsy want Goff boyz don't we)


The difference between Guards and Orks is that requires Guard to get T1 to move block effectively with MMM. Orks do it before the game begins.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/20 04:58:37


Post by: alextroy


So it sounds like the general consensus is that Boyz are too expensive and too susceptible to Morale. My solution:
1. Drop them down a point per model
2. Add to Mob Rules. "Additionally, while the unit contains 10 or more models when it makes a Combat Attrition test, one additional model flees from the unit per two dice results of 1 rather than fore each result of 1. Ignore any single left over result of 1. For example, if the Combat Attrition test results has five 1s, two models flee the unit."

And now we have less Morale impact on large units of Orks without there being no impact at all.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/20 05:45:50


Post by: Daedalus81


Jarms48 wrote:
The only way to screen out Kommandos is to have your own infiltrators. Something not every army is capable of, or don't have competitive options that can do it. If you don't have your own infiltrators, you've lost the game already. Kommandos can move block you out of objectives T1 and you'll miss primaries command phase T2 because of them, if you're lucky you might be able to get on the mid-field objectives for primaries in command phase T3. That's if the rest of the Ork army hasn't capitalized on that.

The point is, Kommandos are far too cheap for what they do right now and Boys are too expensive.


They're 9" away ( or more ) and it isn't like they're move blocking you. What happens in my games is they stay near, but out of harms way then they waaagh on to your objective so you don't score the next turn ( possibly ).

At that point you need to sacrifice some shooting to push far enough to keep them off the bubble.

Taking a temporary hit on primary isn't the end of the game, either.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/20 17:41:41


Post by: Commissar Yarrork


 alextroy wrote:
So it sounds like the general consensus is that Boyz are too expensive and too susceptible to Morale. My solution:
1. Drop them down a point per model
2. Add to Mob Rules. "Additionally, while the unit contains 10 or more models when it makes a Combat Attrition test, one additional model flees from the unit per two dice results of 1 rather than fore each result of 1. Ignore any single left over result of 1. For example, if the Combat Attrition test results has five 1s, two models flee the unit."

And now we have less Morale impact on large units of Orks without there being no impact at all.

There is an existing wording used that's just halve the number of models that flee that unit due to failed Combat Attrition tests (rounding fractions down), on Boss Zagstruk.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/21 13:20:36


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly?
Probably go for Orkboy, starting out with a shoota at 7ppm
Choppa and Slugga +1ppm

Change the general SV for orkboys to 5+.
Add an option to upgrade to ard boyzs for 1 ppm.



Still too expensive imo, maybe if they got old mob rule thrown in. I’d keep the choppa slugga at 7 too, we don’t get nearly as many buffs as we got in 8th so they should just kinda be cheaper.

i mean the alternative is to add to the shoota the +1 A if in melee aswell.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/21 13:36:52


Post by: Jidmah


You could also just make the bonus for having many boyz +1 to hit. Less dice and it helps both kinds of boyz.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/21 14:30:22


Post by: SemperMortis


 Daedalus81 wrote:

This is the kind of theory hammer that I think isn't realistic.
Here's a top placing Sisters list ( using new FAQ ):
Spoiler:
5 Sisters
10 Dominions with DBs that hurt marines more than boyz.
10 Retributors w/ MM
5 Retributors w/ HB
2 Rhinos
13 Sacresants
17 Repentia
5 Serpahim

There is hardly any shooting capable of downing enough boyz to be effective.


I'm assuming the Dominion squad is running with the Artificer crafted storm bolters, Ive no idea what DBs are. So each 5 man squad is putting out 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds and 3.3 dead Orkz each. that's Dominions averaging 6.6 by themselves, so there's 1 mob failing morale. The retributors with 4 heavy bolters are 15 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds and 5 dead Orkz. The boltgun has a chance to plink off that last wound, and you could always just take the other 2 Bolters from the other 2 retributor squads to plink that last ork with ease. 10 Retributors with MM is 8 MM and 2 bolters. 8 MM is 16 shots, 10-11 hits, 7 wounds and 7 super dead Boyz. There is your 3rd mob down enough to auto-fail morale with ease.

I didn't even need the whole list to do the bare minimum like I said. Thats 2 dominion squads and 3 Retributor squads. Grand total of....545pts. What did you kill? You killed 20ish boyz with relative ease, thats 180pts of dead ork. Best part? Thats 3 more dead from Morale and about 12 more dead on average from attrition. So in reality its not 180pts of dead ork its 35 dead or 315. I would say 545pts killing 315pts in a single turn is a good return on investment. Especially since those boyz are likely out of range turn 2 to charge.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Here's a marine list:
Spoiler:
5 Incursors
20 VV
2 Volcons
10 Devs, 2 Grav, 6 MM
6 CV
Pod

The Volcons can affect two units at most. A marine list with two Plasma Redemptors and two Volcons will kill a handful more and is capable of doing what you say if they just ignore making their units vulnerable and the boyz are tossed with abandon.
Ork players can still be use Da Jump, but to reposition into low threat lanes for a later move to threaten more strongly.


A volkite Dread is by itself doing 6 dead Orkz, even without the Cyclone missile launcher. So each dread is causing a morale check and ending with 11ish dead boyz, so 150pts killing 99 in a single turn of shooting.

You are drastically over-estimating the durability of boyz and orkz in general. I literally don't even have to break out the rest of that list since the 2 volkite dreads (assuming thats what a volcon is) do 2 mobz by themselves with a 66% return on investment turn 1.

I'll also mention that the SM player who won 2nd place at the London GT was running 3 5 man squads of Deathwatch veterans with frag Cannons. Thats 6 shots average (Blast) from each so 24 per squad, hitting on 3s wounding on 3s. 24 shots, 16 hits for 10.6 dead Orkz. From each squad. At max range they turn into 8 shots, 5.3 hits, and 3.5 super dead orkz from each squad by themselves. And those squads are only 143pts.

He also brought 3 repemptors with Macro Plasma/Onslaught gatling cannons and 3 Relic Contemptors armed with Volkite. So his list would shred any kind of infantry list So yeah, boyz don't work against that kind of firepower.

Jarms48 wrote:


The only way to screen out Kommandos is to have your own infiltrators. Something not every army is capable of, or don't have competitive options that can do it. If you don't have your own infiltrators, you've lost the game already. Kommandos can move block you out of objectives T1 and you'll miss primaries command phase T2 because of them, if you're lucky you might be able to get on the mid-field objectives for primaries in command phase T3. That's if the rest of the Ork army hasn't capitalized on that.

The point is, Kommandos are far too cheap for what they do right now and Boys are too expensive.

The difference between Guards and Orks is that requires Guard to get T1 to move block effectively with MMM. Orks do it before the game begins.


You seem very sore about Kommandos for some reason. At full (Never taken) strength, its 45 Kommandos in 3 mobz of 15. They don't deploy in the open unless your opponent is an idiot which means they aren't "move blocking" you, and even if they do leave them out in the open to "Move block" you....its 3 mobz, just go around them. And just so you are aware, if they deploy in the open, there defensive buffs are....THE EXACT SAME as a boyz model which isn't taken due to morale/durability issues. So if your opponent is pissing away 450pts turn 1 for you to gun down what amounts to boyz...you should be happy rather than saying "NERF KOMMANDOS!"

A host of armies have cheap infiltrators. A host of armies have units that get a pre-turn 1 move that do this. Hell, Tau get stealth teams which can do this for 26ppm and those are armed with way better weapons, a native 3+ -1 to hit and 2 wounds each. When they deploy in cover they are 2+ with -1 to hit.

Hell, Marine's can take scout squads for 70pts, are you complaining that they can do the exact same thing?

The point being here, is that you seem to have it out for Kommandos more than any other factions units that can do the exact same thing. "They are too cheap!" Yeah, compared to the options mentioned they are cheaper, but they also have a 6+ save as opposed to the 2+ and 3+ the other units get. They have 1 wound to the other factions 2. etc etc etc. So yes they are cheap because they aren't as geared/durable




Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 10:38:24


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Jidmah wrote:
You could also just make the bonus for having many boyz +1 to hit. Less dice and it helps both kinds of boyz.


I like this only partially, because i don't think shoota boys should suck under say 15 modells per squad. NVM that morale atm is still overly punishing for them


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 11:22:32


Post by: Jidmah


Ideally, the threshold should be 10+ models so you can still make boyz in trukks work.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 11:31:58


Post by: Blackie


Absolutely, the blast malus is maxed out at 11+ bodies so also horde bonus should be triggered at that threshold. Getting it at 15+ or 20+ is certainly unfair.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 13:24:34


Post by: SemperMortis


 Jidmah wrote:
Ideally, the threshold should be 10+ models so you can still make boyz in trukks work.


I agree with 10+, but 2 things. 1: Without other buffs it wouldn't change the fact that they are functionally useless still. And 2: There is too much +1 to hit for CC, but even with +1 to hit in shooting phase for those boyz, 30 Shoota boyz at BS4 would be 30-45 hits depending on range. thats 15 - 22.5 wounds and against a Marine profile thats 5 - 7.5dmg or 2.5 to almost 4 dead Marines. Even if they are primaris thats 40-80pts killed by a unit costing 270. And they are incredibly vulnerable to return fire and morale.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 14:36:46


Post by: Jidmah


As long as boyz are slugga, choppa, shoota, big shoota, rokkit and a nob, I don't think you will ever find a correct points value for them.
You have like ten datasheets in the codex that are essentially boyz+1 (burnas, lootas, kommadoz, nobz, storm boyz, tankbustas...), with either the same or better weapons and extra rules. The only thing that makes them special is objective secured which almost never matters because they die too quickly to make use of it.

Without adding anything that just boyz can do, either the extra rules and gear is worth the extra points and you don't run boyz, or it's not and you get boyz spam with all other variants being obsolete again.

The only thing that would make orks bring boyz without spamming them would be upgrades similar to the trukk boyz specialist mob. For example, they could bring back 'ard boyz as an upgrade you can put on one mob per army.
Or add a stratagem that allows you to slap extra specialist mobs on boyz.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 14:57:39


Post by: SemperMortis


 Jidmah wrote:
As long as boyz are slugga, choppa, shoota, big shoota, rokkit and a nob, I don't think you will ever find a correct points value for them.
You have like ten datasheets in the codex that are essentially boyz+1 (burnas, lootas, kommadoz, nobz, storm boyz, tankbustas...), with either the same or better weapons and extra rules. The only thing that makes them special is objective secured which almost never matters because they die too quickly to make use of it.

Without adding anything that just boyz can do, either the extra rules and gear is worth the extra points and you don't run boyz, or it's not and you get boyz spam with all other variants being obsolete again.

The only thing that would make orks bring boyz without spamming them would be upgrades similar to the trukk boyz specialist mob. For example, they could bring back 'ard boyz as an upgrade you can put on one mob per army.
Or add a stratagem that allows you to slap extra specialist mobs on boyz.


I agree completely. But the same is true for a lot of other factions. Look at Marines as the go to example. They have Marines, Marines +1, Marines +2, Marines +1 with Knives, Marines +1 with Auto-cannons, Marines +2 with Flamers, Marines +2 with Melta, etc etc etc etc. I think we can reach a point where Orkz have at least a similar level of competitive choices. I don't really view any of our Boyz+1 units as worth much. Kommandos definitely are worth it, but they have not 1, not 2 but 3 special rules tacked onto them for only 1ppm more. Tankbustas are in a weird place thanks to their new weapon type (Heavy) which makes them functionally useless except against vehicles. Burna boyz are still shoota boyz with shorter ranged guns, The buff to D6 helped, but S4 no AP isn't worth much this edition. Lootas...Hot garbage, I've shown you the math, they are point for point WORSE then almost every other Auto-cannon equipped unit.

I think a lot of our units could do with some upgrades to make them at least palatable, but specifically for boyz I think a divide into Choppa boyz and Shoota boyz datasheets would probably help a bit. Giving them a durability boost to 5+ armor would help, and giving them a morale boost would go a long way towards making them at least worth taking in MSU>


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 16:26:51


Post by: Jidmah


No matter what you think of burnas and lootas, they are still vastly better than shoota boyz

And burnas actually do pop up surprisingly often in a lot in top ork lists.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 16:42:51


Post by: Daedalus81


After playing two Freeboota Wazboms this past weekend all I can say is fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu** Wazboms.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 16:44:40


Post by: Jidmah


 Daedalus81 wrote:
After playing two Freeboota Wazboms this past weekend all I can say is fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu** Wazboms.


Looted doom scythes
(no one likes those either)


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 18:04:12


Post by: SemperMortis


 Jidmah wrote:
No matter what you think of burnas and lootas, they are still vastly better than shoota boyz

And burnas actually do pop up surprisingly often in a lot in top ork lists.


Again, I won't disagree. Burnas/lootas are definitely better than Shoota boyz. But that is like saying "This piece of crap tastes better than that piece of crap" I'm sure there is a difference, but at the end of the day, you're still eating crap

11ppm for what amounts to a boy with a flamer is kinda meh. Pyromaniaks special rule is a joke, the forced requirement of a Spanner is garbage, albeit more useful in burnas with a KMB than lootas. But yeah, they still require a trukk to survive longer than 10 seconds so the real cost of a full trukkload is 132pts for Burnas/spanners, 10pts for KMB and 70 for Trukk. So its 212pts for 10D6 S4 auto-hits and 2D3 S8 AP-3 D6 dmg shots that hit on 5s and kills its bearer on a hit roll of 1. Averages out to 35 Burna shots, 17.5 wounds against T4 and just shy of 3 dead Marines. The KMBs average 4 shots, 1.3 hits (0.65 dead Spannerz) 1.1 wounds and 0.92 failed armor saves for likely another dead Marine. So 4 dead marines for 80pts, but only if you get within 12' range. Not reliable enough for me Could be fun for a friendly game though.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 18:40:28


Post by: the_scotsman


 Jidmah wrote:
No matter what you think of burnas and lootas, they are still vastly better than shoota boyz

And burnas actually do pop up surprisingly often in a lot in top ork lists.


Yeah, boyz could definitely use something to make them distinctively worth taking. I think the only issue I have with the discussion is just one of level of need.

If I take an ork list and I take a bunch of boyz in a horde with ghazghkull and a KFF and a waaagh banner and I do a big classic green tide, does it feel amazing? No.

Does it feel better than basically any list I can compose with my GSC, my Guard, my Eldar, or my Tau?

By a freaking mile.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 18:56:06


Post by: Grimskul


 the_scotsman wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
No matter what you think of burnas and lootas, they are still vastly better than shoota boyz

And burnas actually do pop up surprisingly often in a lot in top ork lists.


Yeah, boyz could definitely use something to make them distinctively worth taking. I think the only issue I have with the discussion is just one of level of need.

If I take an ork list and I take a bunch of boyz in a horde with ghazghkull and a KFF and a waaagh banner and I do a big classic green tide, does it feel amazing? No.

Does it feel better than basically any list I can compose with my GSC, my Guard, my Eldar, or my Tau?

By a freaking mile.


I mean, the armies you've just listed are in dire need of being updated and even then I would say some of them wouldn't do that bad against a Green Tide list depending on how much you optimize the lists.

A better comparison would be against Black Templars using a Black Tide style list. They can run maxed out primaris or regular crusader squads with the 5+ invuln vow and do that archetype far better than an Ork list could. Even if its not optimal for BT, it certainly has a lot more staying power and comparable CC output and they don't need nearly as much support compared to an Ork boy squad.



Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/22 20:03:26


Post by: SemperMortis


 the_scotsman wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
No matter what you think of burnas and lootas, they are still vastly better than shoota boyz

And burnas actually do pop up surprisingly often in a lot in top ork lists.


Yeah, boyz could definitely use something to make them distinctively worth taking. I think the only issue I have with the discussion is just one of level of need.

If I take an ork list and I take a bunch of boyz in a horde with ghazghkull and a KFF and a waaagh banner and I do a big classic green tide, does it feel amazing? No.

Does it feel better than basically any list I can compose with my GSC, my Guard, my Eldar, or my Tau?

By a freaking mile.


I just played in a tournament where the guy who came in 4th place was running a tank heavy guard list. He smoke checked a few opponents with the sheer weight of fire. I would say against a green tide list, most IG lists would perform rather well. As in, better than average.

Ironically, you just named a lot of the actual problems with boyz right now. To make them feel worth it slightly you HAVE to take 3 buffing characters, of which, none are considered competitive. Realistically the Big Mek with KFF is in Mega Armor and costs 115pts, the waaagh banner is 70, and ghaz....well ghaz is a bit pricey at 300. So you are talking about just under 1/4th your entire list just to make 3 blobs of boyz feel ok. And even then they still suck.

For the Mek to earn his points back in durability, he has to save 12.7 wounds that would otherwise have gone through, that means you have to roll 13 6s on invuln saves. TO do that you would need an average of 78 armor saves at -1 or more. So he won't even earn his points back until the mobz are basically all dead, and even then, only if every shot was at least -1AP because otherwise the normal armor save would have worked. To put it another way, its just not worth it. A 5++ was worth it, the 6+....not so much.

Waaagh Banner makes them hit on 2s and ghaz makes them re-roll all failed to hit rolls... so thats 370pts to buff a boy from 2 hits on average to 2.91 To put that into perspective, instead of taking 370pts of buffing characters you could just take 41 more boyz. So 90 boyz with those buffs end up with 262.5 hits (No goff bonus for ease) 131 boyz normally end up with 262 So those buffs make the boyz 0.5 hits better Don't get me wrong, that isn't including the melee attacks that ghaz and the nob get, but the point remains valid, they provide little more than what Boyz would get regardless.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/23 09:40:55


Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


I don't understand why Ork units aren't immune to moral during the turns when Waaagh is in effect.

They're meant to be at their most overwhelming and damn Orky, I don't see any real Orkz fleeing when there is a good WAAAAGH going on!


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/23 11:06:42


Post by: Spoletta


 Jidmah wrote:
As long as boyz are slugga, choppa, shoota, big shoota, rokkit and a nob, I don't think you will ever find a correct points value for them.
You have like ten datasheets in the codex that are essentially boyz+1 (burnas, lootas, kommadoz, nobz, storm boyz, tankbustas...), with either the same or better weapons and extra rules. The only thing that makes them special is objective secured which almost never matters because they die too quickly to make use of it.

Without adding anything that just boyz can do, either the extra rules and gear is worth the extra points and you don't run boyz, or it's not and you get boyz spam with all other variants being obsolete again.

The only thing that would make orks bring boyz without spamming them would be upgrades similar to the trukk boyz specialist mob. For example, they could bring back 'ard boyz as an upgrade you can put on one mob per army.
Or add a stratagem that allows you to slap extra specialist mobs on boyz.


That's my same position on most of the troops in the game.
There shouldn't be an arms race between troops and elites with the "most efficient one" being the one taken at all times.

The efficient ones should be the elites. The troops should be the ones that interact best with the rest of the army and its theme.
You either are choke full of single targeted buffs which by their nature work best on high model count units (which typically are the troops), like Admech, Necrons and now Tyranids, or your troops interact very well with the underlying mechanics of the faction, like rubrics.

Orks have very bad single targeted buffs/stratagems, so there is no reason to play big mobz of boyz, and everyone ends up taking the elite versions. If the warbosses granted a single target buff which made a unit immune to morale, maybe you would see more boyz around.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/23 13:28:42


Post by: Grimskul


Spoletta wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
As long as boyz are slugga, choppa, shoota, big shoota, rokkit and a nob, I don't think you will ever find a correct points value for them.
You have like ten datasheets in the codex that are essentially boyz+1 (burnas, lootas, kommadoz, nobz, storm boyz, tankbustas...), with either the same or better weapons and extra rules. The only thing that makes them special is objective secured which almost never matters because they die too quickly to make use of it.

Without adding anything that just boyz can do, either the extra rules and gear is worth the extra points and you don't run boyz, or it's not and you get boyz spam with all other variants being obsolete again.

The only thing that would make orks bring boyz without spamming them would be upgrades similar to the trukk boyz specialist mob. For example, they could bring back 'ard boyz as an upgrade you can put on one mob per army.
Or add a stratagem that allows you to slap extra specialist mobs on boyz.


That's my same position on most of the troops in the game.
There shouldn't be an arms race between troops and elites with the "most efficient one" being the one taken at all times.

The efficient ones should be the elites. The troops should be the ones that interact best with the rest of the army and its theme.
You either are choke full of single targeted buffs which by their nature work best on high model count units (which typically are the troops), like Admech, Necrons and now Tyranids, or your troops interact very well with the underlying mechanics of the faction, like rubrics.

Orks have very bad single targeted buffs/stratagems, so there is no reason to play big mobz of boyz, and everyone ends up taking the elite versions. If the warbosses granted a single target buff which made a unit immune to morale, maybe you would see more boyz around.


It's ironic you mention the last part, because we did quite literally have something that was like that with Breakin Eads, but GW in their infinite wisdom made it a once per phase strat that costs 2CP as well as still inflict the D3 mortal wounds.

I do agree though, that you can tell why boyz fell out of favour partly because we pretty much lost all the inherent rules support that made boyz work overnight. Mob rule was gutted, we lost Warboss and Nob morale support, we didn't get any real buffs for taking big units, lost Unstoppable Green Tide AND the KFF was nerfed.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/23 13:39:20


Post by: SemperMortis


Correct. The biggest issue is always going to be morale. The next biggest is delivery options. At the moment the only "cost efficient" way to get there is walking and that isn't a smart way to use boyz unless you are running green tide and can absorb the absolutely horrendous losses you will incur before you get stuck into combat.

Every other delivery option is over priced or functionally useless. A regular trukk is 70pts and only guarantees a 2nd turn charge, but at that point your army is paying 160pts for 10 boyz, or 16ppm, almost Space Marine prices. And if the trukk pops which isn't hard against dedicated anti-tank fire, that unit is functionally dead/ignorable until turn 2-3.

Trukk Boyz, the one per detachment unit are useful because they can get out, move and charge turn 1, this gives them a massive turn 1 thread range of 38' or an average of 30. I could see boyz in trukkz being used if this became the norm for those trukkz, but otherwise no.

Da Jump. It got nerfed with the change of Waaagh energy, it got nerfed because you need a successful charge afterwards and Ere We Go itself was nerfed so you have to re-roll both dice instead of choosing 1 and of course the weirdboy himself got nerfed in a points increase. All told its not reliable.

All the same problems as far as ere we go are the same for tellyporta strike, too unreliable to make the charge.

Movement, I just don't understand how a guardsmen can move 6, but an Ork who is as tall as a Marine can only move 5. A Faction renowned for running across the board is somehow slower than the guardsmen. Doesn't make any sense.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/23 14:07:21


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Yeah orks being move 5 is weird. I suppose its a reference to how they used to be I2, but they also had Furious Charge to compensate. You'd think that a race of barbaric aliens who's preferred way of fighting is to just charge in would move a bit faster than a Necron.

They should really be move 6 base.
The fact that you have to take a specific clan to get your infantry to move that fast is just silly.

Trukks are overpriced, imo. Back in 5th ed they were 35pts iirc, and that seemed fair.
I really don't understand the design philosophy in the 9th ed codex. They nerfed green tide, KFF and psychic powers to encourage you to go mechanized, but they also made trukks expensive and you can't charge out of them, meaning that your small squad of poorly armored infantry is target practice for a turn. They may be T5 now, but they still only have one wound and GW hasn't learned from 7th ed and made everything highly lethal again with the dice spam.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/23 14:17:54


Post by: Blackie


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Trukks are overpriced, imo. Back in 5th ed they were 35pts iirc, and that seemed fair.


Maybe they're overpriced, but when they were 35ppm and seemed fair a single heavy bolter hit could kill them instantly, it was a shock not to lose 4+ in a single turn if they were the target priority. They are now much much more resilient than they used to be, just losing more than 2 in one turn is not expected on a regular basis, even if they are the top priority.

I think most of the units that need trukks are overpriced, maybe trukks could get a 5-10ppm drop but I like them as they are. If anything I'd add some melee ability in order to justify their costs, instead of making them cheaper. Now put Lootas, Tankbustas, Flash Gitz in line with more reasonable prices instead. Make boyz worthy of their 9ppm price tag also. Then trukks won't feel overpriced. Rhinos aren't and they're basically the same thing.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/23 17:08:53


Post by: SemperMortis


 Blackie wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Trukks are overpriced, imo. Back in 5th ed they were 35pts iirc, and that seemed fair.


Maybe they're overpriced, but when they were 35ppm and seemed fair a single heavy bolter hit could kill them instantly, it was a shock not to lose 4+ in a single turn if they were the target priority. They are now much much more resilient than they used to be, just losing more than 2 in one turn is not expected on a regular basis, even if they are the top priority.

I think most of the units that need trukks are overpriced, maybe trukks could get a 5-10ppm drop but I like them as they are. If anything I'd add some melee ability in order to justify their costs, instead of making them cheaper. Now put Lootas, Tankbustas, Flash Gitz in line with more reasonable prices instead. Make boyz worthy of their 9ppm price tag also. Then trukks won't feel overpriced. Rhinos aren't and they're basically the same thing.


Trukkz were over priced in those editions as well. You paid 35pts for the likely chance of killing your own models. You HAD to take 6-9 of them to have a chance of 2-3 getting across the table. They still are flimsy compared to similar options other factions have and they are in need of some kind of role outside of "Im a transport and then I might eat ovewatch". I think a 10ppm price cut along with going to WS3+ would be fair. At that point their weapon upgrades don't seem like a complete waste of time, though I would change those so you can use ALL your attacks on them as opposed to 1.

I do second your point though that instead of other price cuts it would make more sense to make those units WORTH taking at their current values. A lot of our "infantry" choices are kind of suspect atm. Tankbustas are too unreliable, lootas and burnas don't do enough dmg still, Nobz are over priced. really the only infantry I take are Kommandos and Trukk boyz and only because they mesh with my alphork strike list.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/23 17:43:12


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Yeah a lot of the specialist orks are expensive for what they offer. The balancing isn't great.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/27 17:50:53


Post by: SemperMortis


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah a lot of the specialist orks are expensive for what they offer. The balancing isn't great.


The balancing is terrible, but realistically look at the tournament lists placing right now in regards to the infantry that are being taken.

You have MSU Stormboyz/Kommandos who are being used to cap objectives and do actions, you might have 1 unit of MSU troops, either grots or occasionally boyz, they serve the exact same purpose but help by reducing CP expenditure. That is it. Believe it or not, there are a host of reasons but the one similarity is that they all have morale problems and are too flimsy for what they can deliver.

Lootas don't put out enough dmg and in big mobz they die to morale.
Tankbustas can't move and shoot now without losing 50% of their dmg output, and in big squads they die to morale and targeted enemy fire.
Shoota boyz put out next to nothing dmg wise and with a 6+ save and morale issues aren't worth it.
Choppa boyz are fine dmg wise but in mobz they lose to leadership
Kommandos...honestly, in my opinion, they are the only infantry unit orkz have which can stand on its own 2 legs atm.
Nobz, a more heavily over priced boy compared to the over priced boy. 1 more base attack than a Snagga and 1 more wound, apparently Marines get this for 3pts, Nobz get it for 7.
Stormboyz just faster choppa boyz, they would be fine except that as mentioned morale and price reduces them to MSU role.

This edition is incredibly deadly, and a 6+ armor save isn't going to do much to help reduce incoming dmg, which means you need to either make them so cheap that they can absorb the casualties, so deadly that only a couple need to actually make it to combat or increase durability. GW has done none of those things for any of the above mentioned units except for Kommandos in my opinion.



Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/29 08:59:59


Post by: Not Online!!!


After finally getting some games in...
honestly i am quite concerned about boys and their corestatline cost, which impacts a lot of the specialists.

Basically, for me atleast, there is a mainline issue and then there is side issues.

The mainline issue to me is, the fact that boys are completely non durable compared to certain fast assault units in a pts/wound/ durability effects and SV rate.

3 boy wounds cost 27 pts, a warbika is 25.
The closest thing comparatively is the shoota boy to the warbika, which shoots more, has a better gun, has the same ammount of wounds, has only 1 body which is better for morale, has a SV4+ and a native -1 to hit. nvm movement.
Basically you pay less and get more.

Squig riders show the same result but reach S 6 and T6 which are important break points due to the wound chart....

It is not helped by the fact that a truck is basically an ork buggy variant without comparable firepower in the slightest.

Spoiler:
Side line issues are stuff that is just annoying in regards to equipment, f.e. Ork boy nob being SV 6+ (all other nob or nob equivs SV4+ atleast, having no access to a shoota if you want to field shoota boys. thanks no models no rules principle.

Heavy rockits are annoying (unless your' bad moons). Which is incidentally why tankbustas are... ok... they do what they are supposed to but only because of an trick in regards to bonus BS.

Komandos got a new kit..... and got no option for shootas.. but he you can now have a souped up shoota and an big shoota and a rockit, but turning them into a shooting unit still isn't something you are allowed... because the 4th edition dex clearly was wrong when he described the shoota as favourite weapon of the humble boy and its derivatives.

Loootas don't have a trick for better bs, ergo they end up in the suck sphere, ( if the killblasta would've been dakka 5/3 then it might've been a diffrent tune for small units) but also forced Mek in 5 is annoying, nvm morale.

Stormboys are fine, but kommandos do their job better for cheaper. ( as do squig riders and koptas and warbikas and the buggy variants)


Basically, thesis. So long boy wounds are more expensive than better armored, armed and mobile wounds so long boys remain a niche pick at best.
Which incidentally would put boys atleast 1 pts cheaper just by wounds, i am more inclined to think though in regards to the far better toughness, armament and SV overall that boys should be 2-3 ppm cheaper. Shoota boys even more.




Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/29 09:20:01


Post by: Jidmah


Sounds about right - especially since neither warbikers nor hogriders are super strong.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 13:35:23


Post by: fraser1191


I actually think that boys almost should have stayed T4 and went to W2 instead. I have no idea how this would affect things but I think Nobz were W2 and didn't break the game


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 13:47:30


Post by: Grimskul


 fraser1191 wrote:
I actually think that boys almost should have stayed T4 and went to W2 instead. I have no idea how this would affect things but I think Nobz were W2 and didn't break the game


2W wouldn't have done much TBH and I think it would have been even worse in some cases given the plethora of D2 or higher weaponry being spammed by other armies. You're basically giving an ideal target for the weapons that ramshackle helps ignore, so you're even less incentivized to take boyz than you already were in a buggy oriented list. For foot lists, they would die just as fast to the anti-infantry people can put out nowadays (watch how a min squad of incubi just carve through a boyz squad), considering that right now it's a mixture of a morale issues and KFF nerf + loss of Unstoppable Green Tide strat that murdered boyz centric lists.

As noted by previous posters, boyz just don't have anything that makes them stand out as useful compared to their specialized variants. GW would need to give them something bespoke in terms of pre-game upgrades (i.e. ard boyz) or more inherent support within the army structure before they're seen as a troop tax at best.



Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 13:59:31


Post by: G00fySmiley


 fraser1191 wrote:
I actually think that boys almost should have stayed T4 and went to W2 instead. I have no idea how this would affect things but I think Nobz were W2 and didn't break the game


I think that would have been worse for the game honestly and would actually hurt space marines of all flavors (sadly loyalists only but hopefully pointy marines get their second wound soon) as people would be even more incentivized to run D2 weapons in their take all comers/tournament lists. I think T5 was a good idea, and if GW had left mob rule in place you would see ork boyz on the table as acceptable but not amazing troops. now give them the 6+++ ignore wounds for all infantry and mob rule back then you have a pretty good that people will take but not be game breaking (at current points)


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 15:18:31


Post by: Jidmah


Orks are fine at 1W/T5.

It's just boyz that aren't working.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 15:29:34


Post by: Grimskul


 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are fine at 1W/T5.

It's just boyz that aren't working.


Pretty much this. I think if they revised how Mob Rule/morale support within the army works (since let's be real, it's pretty much only relevant for boyz), made Painboyz/Painbosses allow you to replenish D3 or 2D3 BOYZ casualties in the case of the Painboss, and other support units like the WAAAGH! Banner filling in for the loss of the strat, boyz could be more palatable as a unit. Shootas needs a general overhaul as a weapon though.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 15:53:06


Post by: SemperMortis


 Grimskul wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are fine at 1W/T5.

It's just boyz that aren't working.


Pretty much this. I think if they revised how Mob Rule/morale support within the army works (since let's be real, it's pretty much only relevant for boyz), made Painboyz/Painbosses allow you to replenish D3 or 2D3 BOYZ casualties in the case of the Painboss, and other support units like the WAAAGH! Banner filling in for the loss of the strat, boyz could be more palatable as a unit. Shootas needs a general overhaul as a weapon though.


If you fixed morale for them they would still need a useful delivery method.

You can either foot slog it which requires green tide style list to have a chance of getting any across the table or you have to have another means of delivery. ATM Boyz have neither available to them. Ere we go got nerfed, Evil sunz +1 charge got nerfed, so now you are left with "Da Jump" and "Teleporta" which drops boyz off 9' from the enemy which sounds good, but then you remember they will be stuck with no ability to do much besides some desultory pistol shots. On your opponents turn they will double tap everything that was transported turn 2.

I would really like to see Trukkz in general gain the Trukk boy special rules. At that point you could see a return to trukk boyz. And if they did do that, you could justify the insane price for the Trukk.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 16:01:35


Post by: Grimskul


SemperMortis wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Orks are fine at 1W/T5.

It's just boyz that aren't working.


Pretty much this. I think if they revised how Mob Rule/morale support within the army works (since let's be real, it's pretty much only relevant for boyz), made Painboyz/Painbosses allow you to replenish D3 or 2D3 BOYZ casualties in the case of the Painboss, and other support units like the WAAAGH! Banner filling in for the loss of the strat, boyz could be more palatable as a unit. Shootas needs a general overhaul as a weapon though.


If you fixed morale for them they would still need a useful delivery method.

You can either foot slog it which requires green tide style list to have a chance of getting any across the table or you have to have another means of delivery. ATM Boyz have neither available to them. Ere we go got nerfed, Evil sunz +1 charge got nerfed, so now you are left with "Da Jump" and "Teleporta" which drops boyz off 9' from the enemy which sounds good, but then you remember they will be stuck with no ability to do much besides some desultory pistol shots. On your opponents turn they will double tap everything that was transported turn 2.

I would really like to see Trukkz in general gain the Trukk boy special rules. At that point you could see a return to trukk boyz. And if they did do that, you could justify the insane price for the Trukk.


Very valid point. I feel like in 9th ed this is less of an issue than in 8th where the majority of objectives aren't as close to the middle and the game board is smaller, but I do definitely agree that its unwieldy handling large mobz of boyz with the new coherency rules. Should boyz have something close to a pre-game move that reflects how much they want to get stuck in? Give them a 5" headstart similar to how Bonesplitterz get their pre-game "hunting" move. Not sure if this is thematic or impactful enough, but I do agree Trukkz should have the Trukk boy rule baseline, it really feels like they don't have a purpose beyond that anyways.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 16:18:26


Post by: SemperMortis


 Grimskul wrote:


Very valid point. I feel like in 9th ed this is less of an issue than in 8th where the majority of objectives aren't as close to the middle and the game board is smaller, but I do definitely agree that its unwieldy handling large mobz of boyz with the new coherency rules. Should boyz have something close to a pre-game move that reflects how much they want to get stuck in? Give them a 5" headstart similar to how Bonesplitterz get their pre-game "hunting" move. Not sure if this is thematic or impactful enough, but I do agree Trukkz should have the Trukk boy rule baseline, it really feels like they don't have a purpose beyond that anyways.


The smaller table size is definitely good for boyz, but remember that no-mans land is still 18' on average. That means just to get across no mans land with ork boyz takes 2 full turns with advancing 3' as well. 10+7 = 17. SO at best you can expect a turn 2 charge if your opponent doesn't move back away from your incredibly slow moving infantry list. So that means you are leaving mobz of boyz fully exposed for at least 2 shooting phases just to get them stuck into CC, and during those 2 turns they effectively have 0 impact on the game since their shooting is paltry at best.

Only reason I don't want ork boyz to get that free move before hte game starts is that it would lead to games where the entire ork army is able to get into CC turn 1 without paying a premium on transports/units. If 9ppm boyz can reliably get charges off turn 1 then the meta will suffer. My alphork strike list pulls that trick off fairly well, but I am paying 9ppm + 70pts for the Trukk boyz, 150pts for the Koptas, 75pts for the warbikes and 120ish for the Kommandos. You still wouldn't see blobs of 30 but you would see 6-12 blobs of 10 because why wouldn't you?


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 16:20:06


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


If our buff characters were still good and boyz has the same special rules as 8th at a more reasonable price, we might see normal boyz more. Kommandos and stormboyz don’t really go at the same pace as painboyz and big meks.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 16:28:48


Post by: SemperMortis


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
If our buff characters were still good and boyz has the same special rules as 8th at a more reasonable price, we might see normal boyz more. Kommandos and stormboyz don’t really go at the same pace as painboyz and big meks.


Very true. Stormboyz/kommandos tend to outpace buffing characters. But if you made our buffing characters worthwhile you could theoretically get away with horde style again. Painboy needs to get buffed to either 5+ or as someone else mentioned, changed to bring back D3 dead per turn. KFF...well, it needs to be buffed back to 5++ and keep its current rules, otherwise whats the point? WAAAAGH banner and warboss need better auras for boyz.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 17:54:22


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Honestly, warboss as auto pass morale and waaaagh banner as +1 to hit would be great. For the painboy 3d3 boyz would honestly make it worth it, an apothecary is able to revive much more expensive stuff.
I’d maybe make that the dok though, and the painboy is still able to give out a feel no pain?


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 19:18:18


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Honestly, warboss as auto pass morale and waaaagh banner as +1 to hit would be great. For the painboy 3d3 boyz would honestly make it worth it, an apothecary is able to revive much more expensive stuff.
I’d maybe make that the dok though, and the painboy is still able to give out a feel no pain?


3d3 boyz returned honestly would be too much.

That said compare the 2

Apothecary 75 points, SM stats, 3+ 4 wounds, 3 attacks, frag and crack grenades, bolt pistol, chainsword (so makes 4 attacks too, Str 4 ap-1 D1)
bestows a 6+++ within 6" and can be used to heal one model D3 wounds at end of movement

can be upgraded to

Chief Apothecary 110 points, same as above but can use the heal ability twice

special note for both, do not need to take up an elite slot if you take a veteran squad

Painboy 70 points, ork stats, 6+ save 4 wounds, 4 attacks, power claw (str 10, AP-3, D2) and urty syringe (wounds nonvehicles on a 2_ with no AP D1)
bestows a 6+++ within 3", can be used to heal up to 2 wounds on a 2+ but may inflict a mortal wound on a 1

or as HQ
Painboss 80 points, 1 more wound for 5, and gets a 4+ armor save, gives up other weapons for 1 profile str7 AP-2 D2 weapon, same might do a mortal wound when healing


to compare:
The ork models do not have a gun or grenades but their CC is a whole lot scarier. Painboy 6+ armor sucks painboss has the 4+ sicne the painbody used to be part of a nobx squad as an option, and said nobz are a 4+ that was an odd choice. Painboy has an arguably worse weapons but also does not take an elite slot and can fill an hq requirement. Apothecary being able to be taken at no slot requirement is pretty good since their elites are a lot better than the orks elites for the most part. The fact that the painboy 1/6 of the time hurts the model is... dumb from a competitive standpoint, lore wise though its spot on (might be cool to have a narrative tabel of "doc upgrades" that are rolled for when healed in crusade). As for the rest I would prefer the restore 2 wounds to D3 wounds. That said it would be cool to add D3 single wound models back into play if the unit selected has only 1 wound models not counting the Nob.

As a final note in a comparison the Apothecary is much better at thier job, the Orks pay the points for harder hitting in melee but thats really not somethign they lack in any way so i would gladly trade some of that for better heals. points for points I think the Apothecary is a little better but not liek orders of magnitude better, just more synergy with the army.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/11/30 21:31:09


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Honestly, warboss as auto pass morale and waaaagh banner as +1 to hit would be great. For the painboy 3d3 boyz would honestly make it worth it, an apothecary is able to revive much more expensive stuff.
I’d maybe make that the dok though, and the painboy is still able to give out a feel no pain?


3d3 boyz returned honestly would be too much.

That said compare the 2

Apothecary 75 points, SM stats, 3+ 4 wounds, 3 attacks, frag and crack grenades, bolt pistol, chainsword (so makes 4 attacks too, Str 4 ap-1 D1)
bestows a 6+++ within 6" and can be used to heal one model D3 wounds at end of movement

can be upgraded to

Chief Apothecary 110 points, same as above but can use the heal ability twice

special note for both, do not need to take up an elite slot if you take a veteran squad

Painboy 70 points, ork stats, 6+ save 4 wounds, 4 attacks, power claw (str 10, AP-3, D2) and urty syringe (wounds nonvehicles on a 2_ with no AP D1)
bestows a 6+++ within 3", can be used to heal up to 2 wounds on a 2+ but may inflict a mortal wound on a 1

or as HQ
Painboss 80 points, 1 more wound for 5, and gets a 4+ armor save, gives up other weapons for 1 profile str7 AP-2 D2 weapon, same might do a mortal wound when healing


to compare:
The ork models do not have a gun or grenades but their CC is a whole lot scarier. Painboy 6+ armor sucks painboss has the 4+ sicne the painbody used to be part of a nobx squad as an option, and said nobz are a 4+ that was an odd choice. Painboy has an arguably worse weapons but also does not take an elite slot and can fill an hq requirement. Apothecary being able to be taken at no slot requirement is pretty good since their elites are a lot better than the orks elites for the most part. The fact that the painboy 1/6 of the time hurts the model is... dumb from a competitive standpoint, lore wise though its spot on (might be cool to have a narrative tabel of "doc upgrades" that are rolled for when healed in crusade). As for the rest I would prefer the restore 2 wounds to D3 wounds. That said it would be cool to add D3 single wound models back into play if the unit selected has only 1 wound models not counting the Nob.

As a final note in a comparison the Apothecary is much better at thier job, the Orks pay the points for harder hitting in melee but thats really not somethign they lack in any way so i would gladly trade some of that for better heals. points for points I think the Apothecary is a little better but not liek orders of magnitude better, just more synergy with the army.



Painboyz would be just as good, they inherently know how orks work, and orks are incredibly resilient. I believe it was the 3rd Ed dex that said that boyz parts could be sewn on to another ork with 99.99% of success without rejection. The painboy also doesn’t have better melee lol, cause you’re not throwin him in there.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/01 15:06:24


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Honestly, warboss as auto pass morale and waaaagh banner as +1 to hit would be great. For the painboy 3d3 boyz would honestly make it worth it, an apothecary is able to revive much more expensive stuff.
I’d maybe make that the dok though, and the painboy is still able to give out a feel no pain?


3d3 boyz returned honestly would be too much.

That said compare the 2

Apothecary 75 points, SM stats, 3+ 4 wounds, 3 attacks, frag and crack grenades, bolt pistol, chainsword (so makes 4 attacks too, Str 4 ap-1 D1)
bestows a 6+++ within 6" and can be used to heal one model D3 wounds at end of movement

can be upgraded to

Chief Apothecary 110 points, same as above but can use the heal ability twice

special note for both, do not need to take up an elite slot if you take a veteran squad

Painboy 70 points, ork stats, 6+ save 4 wounds, 4 attacks, power claw (str 10, AP-3, D2) and urty syringe (wounds nonvehicles on a 2_ with no AP D1)
bestows a 6+++ within 3", can be used to heal up to 2 wounds on a 2+ but may inflict a mortal wound on a 1

or as HQ
Painboss 80 points, 1 more wound for 5, and gets a 4+ armor save, gives up other weapons for 1 profile str7 AP-2 D2 weapon, same might do a mortal wound when healing


to compare:
The ork models do not have a gun or grenades but their CC is a whole lot scarier. Painboy 6+ armor sucks painboss has the 4+ sicne the painbody used to be part of a nobx squad as an option, and said nobz are a 4+ that was an odd choice. Painboy has an arguably worse weapons but also does not take an elite slot and can fill an hq requirement. Apothecary being able to be taken at no slot requirement is pretty good since their elites are a lot better than the orks elites for the most part. The fact that the painboy 1/6 of the time hurts the model is... dumb from a competitive standpoint, lore wise though its spot on (might be cool to have a narrative tabel of "doc upgrades" that are rolled for when healed in crusade). As for the rest I would prefer the restore 2 wounds to D3 wounds. That said it would be cool to add D3 single wound models back into play if the unit selected has only 1 wound models not counting the Nob.

As a final note in a comparison the Apothecary is much better at thier job, the Orks pay the points for harder hitting in melee but thats really not somethign they lack in any way so i would gladly trade some of that for better heals. points for points I think the Apothecary is a little better but not liek orders of magnitude better, just more synergy with the army.



Painboyz would be just as good, they inherently know how orks work, and orks are incredibly resilient. I believe it was the 3rd Ed dex that said that boyz parts could be sewn on to another ork with 99.99% of success without rejection. The painboy also doesn’t have better melee lol, cause you’re not throwin him in there.


its still said in modern books about painboys being abel to mix and match parts, just read about it in a caiphus cain book i was rereading (just did the whole series so not sure the title but the one on an ice world in a mining area where they discover necrons)

In the comparison as with all unit comparisons fluff should have very little to do with game balance. If a player is not throwing the painboy into combat that is the player choosing to ignore a lot of the game design of the unit. You can't say the power claw and urty syringe do not matter when the model has the option to use them and can put a hurting on something with it. now like a warboss or big mek you have to be careful what combat you put them in, but skirting a painboy into a combat on the edges when there is a large unti of boyz can add quite a few casualties per turn they are engaged or even make the difference against a strong unit like a dreadnaught. An apothecary simply cannot do this nearly as well as thier combat is a bit anemic comparatively.

Its also fine to argue you want painboys to be more like field medics than actual close combat models liek the current design, I might even agree that i would prefer that but game design wise I think painboyz/bosses are about on par with apothecaries for the points (painboyz being slightly worse) when looking at offensive and defensive capacity, hence the conclusion

"As a final note in a comparison the Apothecary is much better at thier job, the Orks pay the points for harder hitting in melee but that's really not something they lack in any way so i would gladly trade some of that for better heals. points for points I think the Apothecary is a little better but not like orders of magnitude better, just more synergy with the army"


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/01 15:31:47


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Having the melee is like putting a 3” heavy weapon on something; you’re never going to use it. Ever.
Apothecaries in space marines are just way better, not even through synergy. You just kinda brute force revive much better models, and prevent wounds from slipping off much more expensive things.
Oh yeah, in 9th the only real utility the painboy had was stripped away, you used to be able to do a small little ranged heal which could hit ghaz, but that’s not even a thing anymore. They’re not even good in green tide lists because the 6+ Fnp is alright against d1, but as soon as your enemy starts putting mid strength multi damage stuff into boyz they just melt and the painboy is worthless.
I also don’t get the whole durability being the same point?, marines can access a 5+ invuln easy, have just better saves, and much more durable meatshields. Orks are t5, but you don’t get too much on top of that.
You don’t even save too many boyz, cause a lot of your losses are due to morale now, not even shooting.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/01 22:14:26


Post by: Blndmage


I feel like maybe GW is trying to write the codex to encourage specific feels.

Like y'all are saying, boys only seem to work as a green tide. Maybe that's exactly what they're for.

I've been out of the loop for a while tho.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/01 22:45:24


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


 Blndmage wrote:
I feel like maybe GW is trying to write the codex to encourage specific feels.

Like y'all are saying, boys only seem to work as a green tide. Maybe that's exactly what they're for.

I've been out of the loop for a while tho.

Boyz just kinda don’t work, even green tide is better done as something like kommandos. Only skew list I really see working for orks is massed t8


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/01 23:11:18


Post by: Tyel


Unpopular take, but I think Boyz need some players to just keep running them and see what happens.

Because I agree with the logic that you can just snipe out a bunch of boyz in a few units and then they lose loads to morale. And I agree with all the problems outlined compared to where things were in 8th.

But... you look at some of the armies winning tournaments, and they really aren't bringing that much shooting. Admittedly they may just charge and massacre a blob of 30 boyz - but its a different narrative to the one usually described here. DE Coven lists for instance. Marine lists with bags of Vanguard Vets, melee Deathwatch etc. The days of walking into an Ad Mech bullet wall seem to be receding.

I mean its kind of masochistic - but the only way to test a skew in a meta is to keep running into the wall and see what is actually appearing against you on the table.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/01 23:33:12


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Tyel wrote:
Unpopular take, but I think Boyz need some players to just keep running them and see what happens.

Because I agree with the logic that you can just snipe out a bunch of boyz in a few units and then they lose loads to morale. And I agree with all the problems outlined compared to where things were in 8th.

But... you look at some of the armies winning tournaments, and they really aren't bringing that much shooting. Admittedly they may just charge and massacre a blob of 30 boyz - but its a different narrative to the one usually described here. DE Coven lists for instance. Marine lists with bags of Vanguard Vets, melee Deathwatch etc. The days of walking into an Ad Mech bullet wall seem to be receding.

I mean its kind of masochistic - but the only way to test a skew in a meta is to keep running into the wall and see what is actually appearing against you on the table.


The issue isn’t necessarily that green tide can’t work, it’s just why not just do with kommandos, stormboyz, and trukk boyz. Maybe some deffkoptas too.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/02 08:00:55


Post by: Blackie


Tyel wrote:
Unpopular take, but I think Boyz need some players to just keep running them and see what happens.

Because I agree with the logic that you can just snipe out a bunch of boyz in a few units and then they lose loads to morale. And I agree with all the problems outlined compared to where things were in 8th.

But... you look at some of the armies winning tournaments, and they really aren't bringing that much shooting. Admittedly they may just charge and massacre a blob of 30 boyz - but its a different narrative to the one usually described here. DE Coven lists for instance. Marine lists with bags of Vanguard Vets, melee Deathwatch etc. The days of walking into an Ad Mech bullet wall seem to be receding.

I mean its kind of masochistic - but the only way to test a skew in a meta is to keep running into the wall and see what is actually appearing against you on the table.


To accomplish what goal? Boyz don't have staying power nor significant shooting/melee ability. There's plenty of stuff in the ork codex that does the same job (whatever job you assign to those poor bastards) but better. The only real good reason to take boyz is the trukk boyz combo, which is already used. I use it as well.

It also depends on the meta, in my area it's much more common to face armies with plenty of tools to deal with infantries and light vehicles and not many proper anti tank, as the consensus about tanks is that they suck .


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/02 08:21:04


Post by: Jidmah


Tyel wrote:
Unpopular take, but I think Boyz need some players to just keep running them and see what happens.

Because I agree with the logic that you can just snipe out a bunch of boyz in a few units and then they lose loads to morale. And I agree with all the problems outlined compared to where things were in 8th.

But... you look at some of the armies winning tournaments, and they really aren't bringing that much shooting. Admittedly they may just charge and massacre a blob of 30 boyz - but its a different narrative to the one usually described here. DE Coven lists for instance. Marine lists with bags of Vanguard Vets, melee Deathwatch etc. The days of walking into an Ad Mech bullet wall seem to be receding.

I mean its kind of masochistic - but the only way to test a skew in a meta is to keep running into the wall and see what is actually appearing against you on the table.


I'm fairly sure that almost every somewhat experienced ork player has tried to see what happens quite a few times. I'm fairly sure almost everyone has these models lying around.

Thing is, tide doesn't work well, it's too slow, does to little damage and is killed off too easily. The old codex had a bunch of tools to combat these issues and all of them, without exception, have been taken away.

The amount of shooting and melee current armies bring wouldn't be sufficient to handle a green tide backed by a reliable da jump, a 5++ KFF, endless green tide, advance and charge each turn, morale immunity and a Thrakka that can be healed. But all of that is gone, and the shooting of a somewhat TAC army is absolutely sufficient to wipe hordes of T5/6+/6++/6+++ hordes across the board that now have to get by with 120 points less than previous editions.

the_scotsman and me recently had a math brawl on how much staying power a horde of boyz has against 2x the DA combat patrol box. The result is that an army not optimized to take on boyz running a random bag of marine models worth 1k points could easily wipe out 1k points of boyz in two turns if all goes well, but latest in three turns.

Essentially, that oppinion is unpopular because both theory and practice have proven it wrong.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/02 09:49:26


Post by: Dysartes


 G00fySmiley wrote:
its still said in modern books about painboys being abel to mix and match parts, just read about it in a caiphus cain book i was rereading (just did the whole series so not sure the title but the one on an ice world in a mining area where they discover necrons)

Caves of Ice, by Sandy Mitchell, from 2004.

Man, that book is 17 years old already? Wow.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/02 13:50:23


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Dysartes wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
its still said in modern books about painboys being abel to mix and match parts, just read about it in a caiphus cain book i was rereading (just did the whole series so not sure the title but the one on an ice world in a mining area where they discover necrons)

Caves of Ice, by Sandy Mitchell, from 2004.

Man, that book is 17 years old already? Wow.


jeebus really... 17 years man i am turning into a dinosaur. I want to say there was a mention of it in one of the primarch books about them fighting the same orks they thought they had fought before but bigger and with a few more scars but i need to reread them to find it, might have been the Roboute one but i also may be mixing it up.

As for the above about "people just need to try and make boyz work" TLDR any good player knows now if facing a ork horde. if a 30 man units is on the field kill 6 from each unit, chances are they will then lose ~6 to morale after failing per unit. next turn they kill 6 per unit and you use ~3 to morale. they put very little effort into actually killing 12 orks per unit over 2 turns and get a return of 9 bonus killed per unit and end of turn 2 those 30 man units are now 9 or less man units.

without mob rule or something like the bosspole back where lose D3 orks to auto pass morale ork boy horde is just to easy to counter and trivial amount of shots or attacks for any competitive army list. The only scenario boyz do well is if your opponent goes hard on high str high dmg weapons and for some reason skips any anti infantry. They would then autolose to many armies but hey in that odd anti imperial knight list you could "make them work" but they would not even be as good as a tyranid horde or admech horde infantry list. hell even necron horde would beat out orks in that setup probably.


TLDR of the TLDR orks boyz cannot work because of morale.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/02 15:07:30


Post by: Dudeface


 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
its still said in modern books about painboys being abel to mix and match parts, just read about it in a caiphus cain book i was rereading (just did the whole series so not sure the title but the one on an ice world in a mining area where they discover necrons)

Caves of Ice, by Sandy Mitchell, from 2004.

Man, that book is 17 years old already? Wow.


jeebus really... 17 years man i am turning into a dinosaur. I want to say there was a mention of it in one of the primarch books about them fighting the same orks they thought they had fought before but bigger and with a few more scars but i need to reread them to find it, might have been the Roboute one but i also may be mixing it up.

As for the above about "people just need to try and make boyz work" TLDR any good player knows now if facing a ork horde. if a 30 man units is on the field kill 6 from each unit, chances are they will then lose ~6 to morale after failing per unit. next turn they kill 6 per unit and you use ~3 to morale. they put very little effort into actually killing 12 orks per unit over 2 turns and get a return of 9 bonus killed per unit and end of turn 2 those 30 man units are now 9 or less man units.

without mob rule or something like the bosspole back where lose D3 orks to auto pass morale ork boy horde is just to easy to counter and trivial amount of shots or attacks for any competitive army list. The only scenario boyz do well is if your opponent goes hard on high str high dmg weapons and for some reason skips any anti infantry. They would then autolose to many armies but hey in that odd anti imperial knight list you could "make them work" but they would not even be as good as a tyranid horde or admech horde infantry list. hell even necron horde would beat out orks in that setup probably.


TLDR of the TLDR orks boyz cannot work because of morale.


The morale changes are introduced as a factor to offset hordes and stop morale immune blobs clogging the board. Making boyz immune to morale isn't the answer either. This isn't going to be fixed as long as morale is simply a "more stuff dies" mechanic.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/02 15:24:01


Post by: G00fySmiley


Dudeface wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
its still said in modern books about painboys being abel to mix and match parts, just read about it in a caiphus cain book i was rereading (just did the whole series so not sure the title but the one on an ice world in a mining area where they discover necrons)

Caves of Ice, by Sandy Mitchell, from 2004.

Man, that book is 17 years old already? Wow.


jeebus really... 17 years man i am turning into a dinosaur. I want to say there was a mention of it in one of the primarch books about them fighting the same orks they thought they had fought before but bigger and with a few more scars but i need to reread them to find it, might have been the Roboute one but i also may be mixing it up.

As for the above about "people just need to try and make boyz work" TLDR any good player knows now if facing a ork horde. if a 30 man units is on the field kill 6 from each unit, chances are they will then lose ~6 to morale after failing per unit. next turn they kill 6 per unit and you use ~3 to morale. they put very little effort into actually killing 12 orks per unit over 2 turns and get a return of 9 bonus killed per unit and end of turn 2 those 30 man units are now 9 or less man units.

without mob rule or something like the bosspole back where lose D3 orks to auto pass morale ork boy horde is just to easy to counter and trivial amount of shots or attacks for any competitive army list. The only scenario boyz do well is if your opponent goes hard on high str high dmg weapons and for some reason skips any anti infantry. They would then autolose to many armies but hey in that odd anti imperial knight list you could "make them work" but they would not even be as good as a tyranid horde or admech horde infantry list. hell even necron horde would beat out orks in that setup probably.


TLDR of the TLDR orks boyz cannot work because of morale.


The morale changes are introduced as a factor to offset hordes and stop morale immune blobs clogging the board. Making boyz immune to morale isn't the answer either. This isn't going to be fixed as long as morale is simply a "more stuff dies" mechanic.


I don't necessarily disagree there, but Tyranids as it stands use synapse to be immune to morale, and with ork leadership being what it is along with the lack of a good armor save means morale hurts ork horde more than any other army that can be a horde. The fix does not need to be a flat out immunity, as said the old boss pole mechanic we had before mob rule was added (in 7th?) for lose D3 boyz instead of failing was less punishing. It could maybe be fixed by making ork boyz cheaper so the loss is less of a big deal but i am not sure more bodies is the best solution either as it just clogs the table at a certain point.

between ATSKNF, synapse and high leadership/small unit sizes in most armies it seems morale is basically functioning as a penalty for Orks, GSC, and if run that way Imperial guard, most other factions its a negligible effect that might make them lose a few models during the game but rarely doing much. I for one would also be fine with just doing away with it altogether, no more leaving bodies on the table or thinking back to how many models lost in each unit. something simple like if the unit is at half the starting strength and took a casualty take a leadership test, on a failed test minus 1 WS/BS.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/02 15:28:00


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Preventing “morale immune blobs” in 40k is kinda silly, seeing as tyrannids, guard, and orks, are all lore wise based on having those.
I remember the 4th ork dex that promoted just taking more bodies than bullets the enemy had.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 17:28:32


Post by: G00fySmiley


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Preventing “morale immune blobs” in 40k is kinda silly, seeing as tyrannids, guard, and orks, are all lore wise based on having those.
I remember the 4th ork dex that promoted just taking more bodies than bullets the enemy had.


I would agree usually on orks and Tyranids, not so much for guard unless they are near a Commisar. I have a guard army, what brought me to them were the just human soldiers in space, and human soldiers will often run in unbeatable odds when most their squamates have died (unless thee is a commisar behind them who they knwo will shoot them for looking back)


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 17:39:50


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Preventing “morale immune blobs” in 40k is kinda silly, seeing as tyrannids, guard, and orks, are all lore wise based on having those.
I remember the 4th ork dex that promoted just taking more bodies than bullets the enemy had.


I would agree usually on orks and Tyranids, not so much for guard unless they are near a Commisar. I have a guard army, what brought me to them were the just human soldiers in space, and human soldiers will often run in unbeatable odds when most their squamates have died (unless thee is a commisar behind them who they knwo will shoot them for looking back)


I mean, I was assuming the involvement of a commissar, but if you read the lore Cadians are honestly kinda insane, they don’t really break much. Then again, cadians so I can’t really speak for a more generic pdf.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 18:02:25


Post by: Luke_Prowler


There is an important mechanical point to giving horde armies some form of morale immunity, since if a model is easy to kill and on top of that are easy to cause morale effects, then it becomes much easier to "double dip" in damage, becoming less threatening much faster to less damge compared to something like space marines, and this is much more noticible in "elite" horde armies like orks and demons


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 18:10:26


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Back in my day, orks were six points, massively tougher per point than what we have now, and fearless.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 19:17:27


Post by: Dudeface


 Luke_Prowler wrote:
There is an important mechanical point to giving horde armies some form of morale immunity, since if a model is easy to kill and on top of that are easy to cause morale effects, then it becomes much easier to "double dip" in damage, becoming less threatening much faster to less damge compared to something like space marines, and this is much more noticible in "elite" horde armies like orks and demons


Again though morale being a damage "double dip" is the issue. The point of the morale process is to punish units suffering heavy losses, orks are fluff wise only fearless or whatever rather fluff equivalent is, when they're in large numbers. Them running or performing worse after taking losses makes sense.

Marines in a 5 man unit should also be subject to morale, but it should just be harder to apply to them, in part from unit size and also due to higher leadership.

I'm not all for nids ignoring it either, it should have a different impact on them, maybe alter how well they respond to the synaptic commands or their ability to swarm etc. But they're up there with daemons for those most likely to ignore psychological impact of losses.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 19:44:43


Post by: G00fySmiley


Dudeface wrote:
 Luke_Prowler wrote:
There is an important mechanical point to giving horde armies some form of morale immunity, since if a model is easy to kill and on top of that are easy to cause morale effects, then it becomes much easier to "double dip" in damage, becoming less threatening much faster to less damge compared to something like space marines, and this is much more noticible in "elite" horde armies like orks and demons


Again though morale being a damage "double dip" is the issue. The point of the morale process is to punish units suffering heavy losses, orks are fluff wise only fearless or whatever rather fluff equivalent is, when they're in large numbers. Them running or performing worse after taking losses makes sense.

Marines in a 5 man unit should also be subject to morale, but it should just be harder to apply to them, in part from unit size and also due to higher leadership.

I'm not all for nids ignoring it either, it should have a different impact on them, maybe alter how well they respond to the synaptic commands or their ability to swarm etc. But they're up there with daemons for those most likely to ignore psychological impact of losses.


For orks that is how mob rule functioned, orks were not completely immune. Leadership was the same as the number of models in the unit. they were not immune to morale, but you had to kill 15 boyz from a full 30 man unit to force a morale fail on anything but a 1 (they could start failing it at 10 losses on a 6). once the mob is down to less than 10 boyz morale comes into play a lot easier. (this being the old way and what was removed)


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 19:49:46


Post by: Insectum7


 G00fySmiley wrote:
TLDR any good player knows now if facing a ork horde. if a 30 man units is on the field kill 6 from each unit, chances are they will then lose ~6 to morale after failing per unit. next turn they kill 6 per unit and you use ~3 to morale. they put very little effort into actually killing 12 orks per unit over 2 turns and get a return of 9 bonus killed per unit and end of turn 2 those 30 man units are now 9 or less man units.


That's a really awful state for Orks to be in. Shameful.

It's like learning that Death Company and Berzerkers were no longer Fearless. Like wtf.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 21:31:04


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


I’d like the old mob rule tbh, the one where you’re just fearless over 11 orks.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 21:40:55


Post by: Galas


And thats why Morale should not exist in 40k. Everyone should be fearless by fluff or needs to be fearless to function.

And to have a mechanic that basically just punish Tau Firewarriors and Imperial Guard... just remove it.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 21:44:17


Post by: Insectum7


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I’d like the old mob rule tbh, the one where you’re just fearless over 11 orks.
Agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
And thats why Morale should not exist in 40k. Everyone should be fearless by fluff or needs to be fearless to function.

And to have a mechanic that basically just punish Tau Firewarriors and Imperial Guard... just remove it.
Disagree.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 21:53:19


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


 Galas wrote:
And thats why Morale should not exist in 40k. Everyone should be fearless by fluff or needs to be fearless to function.

And to have a mechanic that basically just punish Tau Firewarriors and Imperial Guard... just remove it.


Agreed. Outside of 30K and some fringe cases morale in 40K never was really functional because most armies outright ignored it. (my Daemons in 8th felt like an exception). In 9th nobody ignores it, but only for Orks so far it really has an impact, for others it's nothing to worry about or hardly comes into play due to msu.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 22:10:19


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


No one would suffer from morale as we have it now, but maybe if morale immunity was lowered for everyone (or had it at more of a cost) we could have some more fun effects like falling back d6 inches, not being able to shoot, or something else like that. I wouldn’t mind 7th ed mob rule if marines also had to deal with leadership stuff.


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 23:09:51


Post by: Galas


Thats the thing. Marines never have to deal with morale because AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR.

Thats makes 60% armies of the game not deal with morale.

Demons? No morale.
Tyranids? Synapse so basically no morale unless you are allready losing so double losing (And from theory I really like the gameplay of focusing synapse creatures to weaken the horde but GW never does it justice)
Necrons? No morale
95% of the Chaos Marines roster? No morale because rubrics berzerker plague marines zombies chosen chaos demonic whatever
Eldar and Dark Eldar? Eh no morale because crazy bunch and MSU armies with extremely high leadership and having eldar running for their lives also doesn't feel right

So that leaves orks (And orks affected by morale are bad orks), imperial guard (Blam commisars no morale problems for you) or Tau (bam ethereals no morale problems for you)


Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 23:19:03


Post by: alextroy


Here's my solution to making Ork Boyz Great Again!

Ork Boyz
  • Unit Size 10-30 models
  • Base Unit cost 70 Points (10 Models)
  • Models 11-20: +6 Points each
  • Models 21-30: +5 Points each
  • Big Choppa: +5 Points
  • Big Shoota: +0 Points
  • Killsaw: +10 Points
  • Kombi-Rocket: +10 Points
  • Kombi-Skorcha: +10 Points
  • Power klaw: +10 Points
  • Power Stabba: +5 Points
  • Rokkit Launcha: +5 Points

  • Adjust Power Levels to match up with the point cost.

    Now a mob of 30 boys with Power Klaw and three Big Shootas cost 190 points instead of the insane 310 points under the current cost. They still get shredded by Morale, but they are costed with that fact in mind. The bigger the mob, the less you pay per model.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 23:22:37


    Post by: Insectum7


     Galas wrote:
    Thats the thing. Marines never have to deal with morale because AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR.

    Thats makes 60% armies of the game not deal with morale.

    Demons? No morale.
    Tyranids? Synapse so basically no morale unless you are allready losing so double losing (And from theory I really like the gameplay of focusing synapse creatures to weaken the horde but GW never does it justice)
    Necrons? No morale
    95% of the Chaos Marines roster? No morale because rubrics berzerker plague marines zombies chosen chaos demonic whatever
    Eldar and Dark Eldar? Eh no morale because crazy bunch and MSU armies with extremely high leadership and having eldar running for their lives also doesn't feel right

    So that leaves orks (And orks affected by morale are bad orks), imperial guard (Blam commisars no morale problems for you) or Tau (bam ethereals no morale problems for you)
    Eldar, DE, Necrons and CSM all had vulnerabilities from Morale rules. Iirc, Daemons just had their own version called Instability.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/03 23:41:54


    Post by: waefre_1


     Insectum7 wrote:
     Galas wrote:
    Thats the thing. Marines never have to deal with morale because AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR.

    Thats makes 60% armies of the game not deal with morale.

    Demons? No morale.
    Tyranids? Synapse so basically no morale unless you are allready losing so double losing (And from theory I really like the gameplay of focusing synapse creatures to weaken the horde but GW never does it justice)
    Necrons? No morale
    95% of the Chaos Marines roster? No morale because rubrics berzerker plague marines zombies chosen chaos demonic whatever
    Eldar and Dark Eldar? Eh no morale because crazy bunch and MSU armies with extremely high leadership and having eldar running for their lives also doesn't feel right

    So that leaves orks (And orks affected by morale are bad orks), imperial guard (Blam commisars no morale problems for you) or Tau (bam ethereals no morale problems for you)
    Eldar, DE, Necrons and CSM all had vulnerabilities from Morale rules. Iirc, Daemons just had their own version called Instability.

    Wasn't Instability just for Leadership tests after losing CC? I may be confusing that with something similar that Vampire Counts had for their Zombies etc, but I want to say that Instability wasn't a 1:1 Morale replacement for them.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/04 00:14:03


    Post by: Insectum7


    ^Possibly, but it certainly served a similar function.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/04 00:22:35


    Post by: The Servant


     Galas wrote:
    And thats why Morale should not exist in 40k. Everyone should be fearless by fluff or needs to be fearless to function.

    And to have a mechanic that basically just punish Tau Firewarriors and Imperial Guard... just remove it.


    Agreed. When we play 3 person free for all we turn off morale. Boring, unnecessarily punishing to hoard armies, really only in place to wreck T'au and IG which are already in a bad place. Feels like everyone else ignores morale except these armies so we just said f that boring time consuming.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/04 08:07:22


    Post by: Dudeface


     waefre_1 wrote:
     Insectum7 wrote:
     Galas wrote:
    Thats the thing. Marines never have to deal with morale because AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR.

    Thats makes 60% armies of the game not deal with morale.

    Demons? No morale.
    Tyranids? Synapse so basically no morale unless you are allready losing so double losing (And from theory I really like the gameplay of focusing synapse creatures to weaken the horde but GW never does it justice)
    Necrons? No morale
    95% of the Chaos Marines roster? No morale because rubrics berzerker plague marines zombies chosen chaos demonic whatever
    Eldar and Dark Eldar? Eh no morale because crazy bunch and MSU armies with extremely high leadership and having eldar running for their lives also doesn't feel right

    So that leaves orks (And orks affected by morale are bad orks), imperial guard (Blam commisars no morale problems for you) or Tau (bam ethereals no morale problems for you)
    Eldar, DE, Necrons and CSM all had vulnerabilities from Morale rules. Iirc, Daemons just had their own version called Instability.

    Wasn't Instability just for Leadership tests after losing CC? I may be confusing that with something similar that Vampire Counts had for their Zombies etc, but I want to say that Instability wasn't a 1:1 Morale replacement for them.


    I think you're right, but this list of nigh immune armies shows why having morale rules that can impact everyone is likely a good thing. Being immune to a negative core mechanic shouldn't be standard, it's why fly was so valuable in 8th as well.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/04 08:48:20


    Post by: Blackie


     alextroy wrote:
    Here's my solution to making Ork Boyz Great Again!

    Ork Boyz
  • Unit Size 10-30 models
  • Base Unit cost 70 Points (10 Models)
  • Models 11-20: +6 Points each
  • Models 21-30: +5 Points each
  • Big Choppa: +5 Points
  • Big Shoota: +0 Points
  • Killsaw: +10 Points
  • Kombi-Rocket: +10 Points
  • Kombi-Skorcha: +10 Points
  • Power klaw: +10 Points
  • Power Stabba: +5 Points
  • Rokkit Launcha: +5 Points

  • Adjust Power Levels to match up with the point cost.

    Now a mob of 30 boys with Power Klaw and three Big Shootas cost 190 points instead of the insane 310 points under the current cost. They still get shredded by Morale, but they are costed with that fact in mind. The bigger the mob, the less you pay per model.


    That's a massive discount of points, 7ppm for the basic boy is simply not gonna happen, let alone 6ppm or 5ppm ones. I like the concept of making boyz cheaper every 10 models, but they realistically should be designed around the 9-8-7 ppm costs. I'm also against free upgrades, make big shootas better instead, for example with a flat AP-1 at half or even full range.

    IMHO best way to fix boyz is to give them a flat fearless mechanic, triggered somehow. Then re-work the troops' role in 40k in order to give troops some unique features that encourage players selecting them. All food for 10th edition, orks rules are done for 9th.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/04 10:56:37


    Post by: addnid


     alextroy wrote:
    Here's my solution to making Ork Boyz Great Again!

    Ork Boyz
  • Unit Size 10-30 models
  • Base Unit cost 70 Points (10 Models)
  • Models 11-20: +6 Points each
  • Models 21-30: +5 Points each
  • Big Choppa: +5 Points
  • Big Shoota: +0 Points
  • Killsaw: +10 Points
  • Kombi-Rocket: +10 Points
  • Kombi-Skorcha: +10 Points
  • Power klaw: +10 Points
  • Power Stabba: +5 Points
  • Rokkit Launcha: +5 Points

  • Adjust Power Levels to match up with the point cost.

    Now a mob of 30 boys with Power Klaw and three Big Shootas cost 190 points instead of the insane 310 points under the current cost. They still get shredded by Morale, but they are costed with that fact in mind. The bigger the mob, the less you pay per model.


    That seems pretty good honestly, but perhaps stop at 6 ppm, don’t go lower. Cheaper boyz reflects the fluff of waagh power drawing more and more boyz to the fray


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/04 11:35:06


    Post by: Jidmah


    Agree with addnid and Blackie. While 190 points might be a bit low for 30 wounds, the idea of boyz getting cheaper is a good one - usually any boyz beyond the first 10-12 are just ablative wounds that never get to fight anyways.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/04 16:57:46


    Post by: brainpsyk


     Jidmah wrote:
    Agree with addnid and Blackie. While 190 points might be a bit low for 30 wounds, the idea of boyz getting cheaper is a good one - usually any boyz beyond the first 10-12 are just ablative wounds that never get to fight anyways.

    Totally agree here. the other thing to remember is that we have 2 ways of getting out of mass casualties, Breakin' Heads and Insane Bravery. The point of the 30-boyz unit is a tarpit to soak fire & move block your opponent while your bigger krumpers get into position. But as stated, boyz are too expensive to fulfil that role, and the strats are really expensive as well considering we spend most of our CP pre-game because most of our strats fall short.

    At 30 boys losing 6 to firing (now at 24), spending the 2 CP is a value-add. But at 24 boyz, losing 6 (down to 18), you're spending 2 CP to save 3/d3 boyz, the value proposition isn't there anymore. If Breakin' Heads was 1 CP for <20 boys and 2CP for 20+, then that strat would be really good.

    But the better compromise is just making the boyz cost less at higher numbers


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/04 17:14:43


    Post by: alextroy


     Blackie wrote:
    That's a massive discount of points, 7ppm for the basic boy is simply not gonna happen, let alone 6ppm or 5ppm ones. I like the concept of making boyz cheaper every 10 models, but they realistically should be designed around the 9-8-7 ppm costs. I'm also against free upgrades, make big shootas better instead, for example with a flat AP-1 at half or even full range.
    If we all agree that Boyz are so overpriced at 9 points a model for 10 models, then making them cost less after the first 10 models doesn't really fix anything. The first 10-12 models need to be appropriately priced for Trukk Boyz.

    As for free upgrades, I think every unit should be costed in a way that front loads basic upgrades and the squad leader into the base points of the unit. Only then will the rules both encourage larger units and units that look like 40K units are supposed to look. Nobody is going to shell out 5 points for a Big Shoota, but they just might take a free Big Shoota if they have already paid for it anyway. Such a fundamental change in unit Matched Play cost would change the math on MSU units, especially the one that come barebones. It's like a more nuanced form of Power Level.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/04 18:01:29


    Post by: Jidmah


    I'd be totally fine with the heavy weapon boy with big shoota just being baseline in a unit, and the rokkit being a 5pt upgrade on top of that. We see that free big shootas aren't a huge issue for kannon wagons or buggies, so they shouldn't be an issue for any other unit.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/05 07:50:37


    Post by: Blackie


     alextroy wrote:
     Blackie wrote:
    That's a massive discount of points, 7ppm for the basic boy is simply not gonna happen, let alone 6ppm or 5ppm ones. I like the concept of making boyz cheaper every 10 models, but they realistically should be designed around the 9-8-7 ppm costs. I'm also against free upgrades, make big shootas better instead, for example with a flat AP-1 at half or even full range.
    If we all agree that Boyz are so overpriced at 9 points a model for 10 models, then making them cost less after the first 10 models doesn't really fix anything. The first 10-12 models need to be appropriately priced for Trukk Boyz.

    As for free upgrades, I think every unit should be costed in a way that front loads basic upgrades and the squad leader into the base points of the unit. Only then will the rules both encourage larger units and units that look like 40K units are supposed to look. Nobody is going to shell out 5 points for a Big Shoota, but they just might take a free Big Shoota if they have already paid for it anyway. Such a fundamental change in unit Matched Play cost would change the math on MSU units, especially the one that come barebones. It's like a more nuanced form of Power Level.


    I don't mind 9ppm boyz to be honest, in 2000 points games that's a very cheap cost for the basic troop. The fact that they currently don't worth 9ppm to me means that they should be improved, not that they need a points drop.

    Cheap but useless outside spam is a bad concept, and I'd rather keep boyz as they are then having super cheap spammable boyz.

    Same for big shootas, make them worthy of 5 points instead of being free but still a garbage option with no impact on the game. Free big shootas look ok on some vehicles but still bring massive dice rolling for close to no result, except maybe during the speedwaaagh. I prefer making them more expensive but with a dakka weapon with heavy bolter profile (native AP-1 and D2) for example. Less shots (for points) but more powerful.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/05 16:55:44


    Post by: alextroy


     Blackie wrote:
    I don't mind 9ppm boyz to be honest, in 2000 points games that's a very cheap cost for the basic troop. The fact that they currently don't worth 9ppm to me means that they should be improved, not that they need a points drop.

    Cheap but useless outside spam is a bad concept, and I'd rather keep boyz as they are then having super cheap spammable boyz.

    Same for big shootas, make them worthy of 5 points instead of being free but still a garbage option with no impact on the game. Free big shootas look ok on some vehicles but still bring massive dice rolling for close to no result, except maybe during the speedwaaagh. I prefer making them more expensive but with a dakka weapon with heavy bolter profile (native AP-1 and D2) for example. Less shots (for points) but more powerful.
    But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/05 17:54:53


    Post by: Dudeface


     alextroy wrote:
     Blackie wrote:
    I don't mind 9ppm boyz to be honest, in 2000 points games that's a very cheap cost for the basic troop. The fact that they currently don't worth 9ppm to me means that they should be improved, not that they need a points drop.

    Cheap but useless outside spam is a bad concept, and I'd rather keep boyz as they are then having super cheap spammable boyz.

    Same for big shootas, make them worthy of 5 points instead of being free but still a garbage option with no impact on the game. Free big shootas look ok on some vehicles but still bring massive dice rolling for close to no result, except maybe during the speedwaaagh. I prefer making them more expensive but with a dakka weapon with heavy bolter profile (native AP-1 and D2) for example. Less shots (for points) but more powerful.
    But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


    What stops them being spammable at 9 points? 100 bodies is still less than half an army. Them not being worth spamming at 9 points is the issue, not the ability to do so.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/05 19:15:02


    Post by: Jidmah


     alextroy wrote:
    But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


    Not really. The ork hordes in the lore aren't just boyz, they are all kinds of orks. It's worth noting that most orks refer to all other orks as "boyz" unless they are bigger than them.
    It's also highly problematic for the game itself to allow them to be spammed to that extend.

    At least in 5th boyz used to be a unit that was able to outfight most rank and file units from other armies and shoot just as well as them, even if you didn't spam them. Top competitive lists could run as little as 40 (18 in a bw+12 in a trukk) and still get value from them, and even horde lists like the kan wall would just bring 80-100.

    The super-boring armies that just flooded the board with as many boyz as possible only rose to popularity with 7th edition's codex which pretty nerfed every other competitive playstyle into the ground. Same thing happened again during the index era and later during 8th edition's codex. Each time all other playstyle sucked, orks would default to spamming the only good unit in the codex as often as possible.

    Orks being spammable is just a symptom of the current ork codex being horrible, not an intentional design decision. It's just that orks have had horrible codices for a loooong time which makes people mistake it for an army identity.

    In other words, we don't need or want the ability to field a boring skew army back, we need boyz to actually be worth their points and not dead weight, even if you just bring 30.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/06 06:17:22


    Post by: morganfreeman


    Dudeface wrote:
     alextroy wrote:
     Blackie wrote:
    I don't mind 9ppm boyz to be honest, in 2000 points games that's a very cheap cost for the basic troop. The fact that they currently don't worth 9ppm to me means that they should be improved, not that they need a points drop.

    Cheap but useless outside spam is a bad concept, and I'd rather keep boyz as they are then having super cheap spammable boyz.

    Same for big shootas, make them worthy of 5 points instead of being free but still a garbage option with no impact on the game. Free big shootas look ok on some vehicles but still bring massive dice rolling for close to no result, except maybe during the speedwaaagh. I prefer making them more expensive but with a dakka weapon with heavy bolter profile (native AP-1 and D2) for example. Less shots (for points) but more powerful.
    But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


    What stops them being spammable at 9 points? 100 bodies is still less than half an army. Them not being worth spamming at 9 points is the issue, not the ability to do so.


    The sheer volume of available firepower and kill potential stops them from being spammable at 9 points.

    In order to earn their price tag, from a durability stand point, Boyz would need to have heavy moral mitigation (something similar to ATSKNF in that only one of them can run away, or straight fearless above 10 models in the unit), and 1-2 more durability increases; an extra wound, an armor save that matters (4+), a minor FNP (6+), something.

    I know that sounds like a lot, but think about this: Boys were 6 PPM, and (effectively) fearless until they hit 10-or-less models in a unit, back when armies had maybe a third of their current firepower and overall killiness. Current boys have received a 3 point price bump, and the thorough nerfing of every single protective measure they had, in exchange for +1 toughness and a fairly minor damage boost (which doesn't make up for the nerfs to how many models can actually fight in combat). They have, in very real terms, become less durable and less dangerous and 50% more expensive.

    It's really not hard to mow-down 100 boys - damn near half your total points - in the current game. A couple of measures can be taken to make those boys slightly more durable, but they're so bad that they don't often don't pay for themselves in terms of boys saved.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/06 07:48:42


    Post by: Blackie


     alextroy wrote:

    But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


    Well, 9ppm models in 2000 points games are the book definition of a spammable unit IMHO . If they're good they'd be spammed, they don't need to be cheaper to be taken in large numbers considering how massive the standard size of a 40k game is. Unless you mean 200+ boyz for a proper horde, then we disagree on the horde concept.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/06 17:32:53


    Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


    The whole point of boyz was to be a horde unit that could do things by itself besides tarpitting, but in 8th the scale shift kinda hurt that. Moving on to 9th the ap helped them, but they lost a lot of charge reliability, peppering things with deffskullz rokkits, morale, reliable deepstrike, and perma advance and charge. They kinda went from a cheap unit that could tarpit, but was better at doing other things, to an expensive unit that can only tarpit.
    They have to reduce the price and buff them.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/07 04:51:32


    Post by: alextroy


     Blackie wrote:
     alextroy wrote:

    But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


    Well, 9ppm models in 2000 points games are the book definition of a spammable unit IMHO . If they're good they'd be spammed, they don't need to be cheaper to be taken in large numbers considering how massive the standard size of a 40k game is. Unless you mean 200+ boyz for a proper horde, then we disagree on the horde concept.
    I'm pretty sure that 9ppm is far from spam territory. Not when there are plenty of models available in the 5 to 7 point range in some armies. Ork Boyz are too expensive to spam given how little you get back for the investment.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/07 07:55:40


    Post by: Blackie


    Yes, they are currently too expensive for what they do. I argued that 9ppm isn't expensive and pretty spammable IF the unit were good.

    90 boyz are 810-840 points depending on the nobz' weapons. That's not even half budget of a standard list.

    If adepta sororitas can field 100+ models hordes, at 9+ ppm, orks can easily bring 180 these days (1620-1680 points). They don't want to do it because boyz are trash, but they are already cheap enough to go full horde style. You don't see gretchins spam for the same reason, they're cheap enough to be spammed but they're trash and won't work.

    I definitely prefer an effective horde of 80-100 models than a crappy one of 150-180 dudes.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/07 08:40:05


    Post by: Dudeface


     alextroy wrote:
     Blackie wrote:
     alextroy wrote:

    But I though the entire point of boyz was being a spammable unit? They have always been the toughest of the spammable units, but spammable none the less. That's their entire modus operandi in 40K fiction.


    Well, 9ppm models in 2000 points games are the book definition of a spammable unit IMHO . If they're good they'd be spammed, they don't need to be cheaper to be taken in large numbers considering how massive the standard size of a 40k game is. Unless you mean 200+ boyz for a proper horde, then we disagree on the horde concept.
    I'm pretty sure that 9ppm is far from spam territory. Not when there are plenty of models available in the 5 to 7 point range in some armies. Ork Boyz are too expensive to spam given how little you get back for the investment.


    I think you're confusing spam with "take 200 of them". Spamming simply means to take as many as means allow, would you rather have orks be worth 9 points and field 100-150 of them or have guardsmen stats and field 200+?


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/07 12:04:44


    Post by: SemperMortis


    Dudeface wrote:

    Again though morale being a damage "double dip" is the issue. The point of the morale process is to punish units suffering heavy losses, orks are fluff wise only fearless or whatever rather fluff equivalent is, when they're in large numbers. Them running or performing worse after taking losses makes sense.

    Marines in a 5 man unit should also be subject to morale, but it should just be harder to apply to them, in part from unit size and also due to higher leadership.

    I'm not all for nids ignoring it either, it should have a different impact on them, maybe alter how well they respond to the synaptic commands or their ability to swarm etc. But they're up there with daemons for those most likely to ignore psychological impact of losses.


    The problem as we have it right now in 9th is that almost every other faction in the game does not give a flying fig about Morale, where as with orkz, its such a massive known issue that we build our entire lists around the concept of MSU to minimize morale effects because to not do so is almost to auto-lose.

    Space Marines are Functionally Immune to morale.
    Grey Knights are Functionally Immune to morale.
    Custodes are Functionally Immune to morale.
    Necrons are Functionally Immune to morale.
    Nidz are Functionally Immune to morale.
    Imperial Guard are Functionally Immune to morale. (Their infantry squads can fail morale but they are forced to go MSU anyway)

    The list goes on. The only main factions that has to care about morale right now in 9th is Orkz.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/07 13:53:40


    Post by: Dudeface


    SemperMortis wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:

    Again though morale being a damage "double dip" is the issue. The point of the morale process is to punish units suffering heavy losses, orks are fluff wise only fearless or whatever rather fluff equivalent is, when they're in large numbers. Them running or performing worse after taking losses makes sense.

    Marines in a 5 man unit should also be subject to morale, but it should just be harder to apply to them, in part from unit size and also due to higher leadership.

    I'm not all for nids ignoring it either, it should have a different impact on them, maybe alter how well they respond to the synaptic commands or their ability to swarm etc. But they're up there with daemons for those most likely to ignore psychological impact of losses.


    The problem as we have it right now in 9th is that almost every other faction in the game does not give a flying fig about Morale, where as with orkz, its such a massive known issue that we build our entire lists around the concept of MSU to minimize morale effects because to not do so is almost to auto-lose.

    Space Marines are Functionally Immune to morale.
    Grey Knights are Functionally Immune to morale.
    Custodes are Functionally Immune to morale.
    Necrons are Functionally Immune to morale.
    Nidz are Functionally Immune to morale.
    Imperial Guard are Functionally Immune to morale. (Their infantry squads can fail morale but they are forced to go MSU anyway)

    The list goes on. The only main factions that has to care about morale right now in 9th is Orkz.


    Marines seem that way because they're not in big enough unit sizes for it to kick in. Drop 6 marines of 10 and the remaining unit has reasonable odds to lose a model or two.
    Grey knights are the same more or less although I don't know much of their 9th ed books admittedly.
    Custodes don't come in large enough units to be impacted.
    Necrons are not functionally immune, morale will really hurt warrior blobs (which aren't seen any more conveniently)
    Nidz are an 8th ed book and use an outdated design paradigm
    IG are an 8th ed book and use an outdated design paradigm

    You missed the biggest culprit imo: Sisters, they can take 20 power armour bodies and auto pass the checks using miracle dice which should overwise really hurt them

    Again all you've done is highlight the following issues:
    - 8th ed books are showing their age
    - the current morale system is skewed to a horde control mechanic
    - this isn't a specific ork issue
    - 9th rewards MSU for all armies

    Edit - the summary of this thread is make boyz immune to current core mechanics designed to control hordes in order to make hordes viable. It's pointless rehashing this, either the morale system as-is needs to go or ork boyz need tweaking to make the risk acceptable. Odds are it won't be resolved this edition and once the other 3 big horde factions get books I'm sure they won't be alone, but it's not going to be resolved easily either. Personally I expected a goffs supplement which would conveniently sort ork infantry out with a slew of subfaction buff/strats but blood axes got that for whatever reason.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/07 15:25:42


    Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


    Only way boyz would be good is if they got back their whole complement of buffs.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/07 17:55:32


    Post by: SemperMortis


    Dudeface wrote:

    Marines seem that way because they're not in big enough unit sizes for it to kick in. Drop 6 marines of 10 and the remaining unit has reasonable odds to lose a model or two.
    Grey knights are the same more or less although I don't know much of their 9th ed books admittedly.
    Custodes don't come in large enough units to be impacted.
    Necrons are not functionally immune, morale will really hurt warrior blobs (which aren't seen any more conveniently)
    Nidz are an 8th ed book and use an outdated design paradigm
    IG are an 8th ed book and use an outdated design paradigm

    You missed the biggest culprit imo: Sisters, they can take 20 power armour bodies and auto pass the checks using miracle dice which should overwise really hurt them

    Again all you've done is highlight the following issues:
    - 8th ed books are showing their age
    - the current morale system is skewed to a horde control mechanic
    - this isn't a specific ork issue
    - 9th rewards MSU for all armies

    Edit - the summary of this thread is make boyz immune to current core mechanics designed to control hordes in order to make hordes viable. It's pointless rehashing this, either the morale system as-is needs to go or ork boyz need tweaking to make the risk acceptable. Odds are it won't be resolved this edition and once the other 3 big horde factions get books I'm sure they won't be alone, but it's not going to be resolved easily either. Personally I expected a goffs supplement which would conveniently sort ork infantry out with a slew of subfaction buff/strats but blood axes got that for whatever reason.


    Except Marine players haven't been taking full squads of 10 in years if not longer. There is no benefit to taking a blob of 10 when they allow you to combat squad into squads of 5 anyway. So besides a few outliers, Marines do not care about Morale.

    That is basically the argument for most of the armies in the game right now. We know for a fact Custodes are going to LD11 because why not. And unless they really screw up, Nidz will still be immune to morale. So, for a faction which has morale problems, there is no reason to not take MSU. With how many nerfs they piled onto ork troops I thought they could at least keep their old Mob Rule


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/07 18:03:58


    Post by: Sgt. Cortez


    I don't think Nids will be immune to morale. So far every morale immunity has been translated to "ignores modifiers to attrition" and I think the same will apply to Nids in range of synapse.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/07 18:06:19


    Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


    I really hope that nids and guard don’t lose their morale stuff, I really want one of the proper hordes to succeed at a horde list.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/08 20:56:24


    Post by: SemperMortis


    Sgt. Cortez wrote:
    I don't think Nids will be immune to morale. So far every morale immunity has been translated to "ignores modifiers to attrition" and I think the same will apply to Nids in range of synapse.


    Except again for the factions which never cared about morale in the first place, IE Power armor armies. I do really like Custodes getting LD11, just as a little last "Feth you orkz" note by the creators that they thought about morale and just want it to impact the NPC races .


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/08 21:09:30


    Post by: Dudeface


    SemperMortis wrote:
    Sgt. Cortez wrote:
    I don't think Nids will be immune to morale. So far every morale immunity has been translated to "ignores modifiers to attrition" and I think the same will apply to Nids in range of synapse.


    Except again for the factions which never cared about morale in the first place, IE Power armor armies. I do really like Custodes getting LD11, just as a little last "Feth you orkz" note by the creators that they thought about morale and just want it to impact the NPC races .


    Honestly I think you need to accept that orks are not the bravest warriors in the cosmos and that as a horde unit they should be vulnerable to mechanics designed to control hordes. Oddly in 3 andn5 man units, marines tend to not notice these kicking in. Again direct your angst at the fact the morale mechanics are unrefined and not... thematic I guess? Rather than just moaning about orks being npcs.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/08 23:49:34


    Post by: SemperMortis


    Dudeface wrote:
    SemperMortis wrote:
    Sgt. Cortez wrote:
    I don't think Nids will be immune to morale. So far every morale immunity has been translated to "ignores modifiers to attrition" and I think the same will apply to Nids in range of synapse.


    Except again for the factions which never cared about morale in the first place, IE Power armor armies. I do really like Custodes getting LD11, just as a little last "Feth you orkz" note by the creators that they thought about morale and just want it to impact the NPC races .


    Honestly I think you need to accept that orks are not the bravest warriors in the cosmos and that as a horde unit they should be vulnerable to mechanics designed to control hordes. Oddly in 3 andn5 man units, marines tend to not notice these kicking in. Again direct your angst at the fact the morale mechanics are unrefined and not... thematic I guess? Rather than just moaning about orks being npcs.


    If we are going to get into fluff as rationale for a game wide rule only targeting reliably 1 faction and no others....you are going to have a bad time also, and which has previously been covered, Morale doesn't necessarily represent merely running away, it could be tactical retreats, it could be models lost to take care of the wounded, (Battlefield math, it takes 2 men to take care of 1 wounded) it could be a host of other things. The problem I have with it is that its only impactful against 1 faction atm. To put the ire into perspective, imagine if GW came out with a new mechanic which said ALL models have to be within 2' of 2 other models at all times or they are destroyed. Suddenly fielding 5 man Elite squads means you lose the last 2 models when the other 3 are killed. Losing 40% of your unit due to a poorly implemented rule would be a bit of a buzz kill wouldn't it? Well, that is currently how Horde units are currently designed...except its closer to 45%.

    You are correct in a way though. GW is trying to use Morale to "control" ork horde units, but in their wonderfully hamfisted style they over did it by a factor of about 10. They stripped all useful stratagems from Horde units, they stripped most character support, they stripped a special rule which incentivized max unit size they buffed Blast weapons to target hordes more reliably and finally they changed Mob rule for Orkz so that it doesn't really benefit them at all which leaves them fully exposed to morale. There is a reason why in 8th you saw 120+ model hordes and now in 9th you see the competitive lists not even taking 10 troop models. GW has massively over corrected and instead of making hordes slightly less competitive they have utterly destroyed them. Unfortunately for a lot of Ork units, that nerf also impacts them as well which is a problem GW needs to address OR as mentioned, implement the poorly written rule fairly across the factions. IF orkz have to suffer from morale, so should every other faction in proportion not to the fluff, but to their average army size at 2k points. So if morale kills 45% of Ork horde units, then it should kill 20%(ish) of elite units, as opposed to what it currently is which is it never matters.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/09 03:29:08


    Post by: Afrodactyl


    Had a thought while discussing things in the Ork tactics thread:

    What if the 1:4 spanner:burna/loota system were ported over to boys mobs, but in a 1:9 ratio?

    So a mob of 30 boys would in fact be 27 boys and 3 nobs.

    This obviously doesn't resolve the morale issues being discussed, but it would give boys mobs a bit more bite to justify the points cost per model. Suddenly a mob has 3 Power Klaws or whatever you choose to arm them with and thus hits harder in CC, and is more likely to be of use when they reach the enemy.

    So 3 mobs of 10 and a single mob of 30 have the same amount of nobs, but with the latter you get more punching power out of your total number of troops slots.

    Obviously you're adding points to the unit to pay for the Big Choppas/Klaws/whatever, but I would say the cost of 3 Big Choppas or Klaws is leaps and bounds more justifiable than the equivalent cost of Big Shootas or Rokkits.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/09 06:03:56


    Post by: ccs


    [/spoiler]
    SemperMortis wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:
    SemperMortis wrote:
    Sgt. Cortez wrote:
    I don't think Nids will be immune to morale. So far every morale immunity has been translated to "ignores modifiers to attrition" and I think the same will apply to Nids in range of synapse.


    Except again for the factions which never cared about morale in the first place, IE Power armor armies. I do really like Custodes getting LD11, just as a little last "Feth you orkz" note by the creators that they thought about morale and just want it to impact the NPC races .


    Honestly I think you need to accept that orks are not the bravest warriors in the cosmos and that as a horde unit they should be vulnerable to mechanics designed to control hordes. Oddly in 3 andn5 man units, marines tend to not notice these kicking in. Again direct your angst at the fact the morale mechanics are unrefined and not... thematic I guess? Rather than just moaning about orks being npcs.


    If we are going to get into fluff as rationale for a game wide rule only targeting reliably 1 faction and no others....you are going to have a bad time also, and which has previously been covered, Morale doesn't necessarily represent merely running away, it could be tactical retreats, it could be models lost to take care of the wounded, (Battlefield math, it takes 2 men to take care of 1 wounded) it could be a host of other things. The problem I have with it is that its only impactful against 1 faction atm. To put the ire into perspective, imagine if GW came out with a new mechanic which said ALL models have to be within 2' of 2 other models at all times or they are destroyed. Suddenly fielding 5 man Elite squads means you lose the last 2 models when the other 3 are killed. Losing 40% of your unit due to a poorly implemented rule would be a bit of a buzz kill wouldn't it? Well, that is currently how Horde units are currently designed...except its closer to 45%.

    You are correct in a way though. GW is trying to use Morale to "control" ork horde units, but in their wonderfully hamfisted style they over did it by a factor of about 10. They stripped all useful stratagems from Horde units, they stripped most character support, they stripped a special rule which incentivized max unit size they buffed Blast weapons to target hordes more reliably and finally they changed Mob rule for Orkz so that it doesn't really benefit them at all which leaves them fully exposed to morale. There is a reason why in 8th you saw 120+ model hordes and now in 9th you see the competitive lists not even taking 10 troop models. GW has massively over corrected and instead of making hordes slightly less competitive they have utterly destroyed them. Unfortunately for a lot of Ork units, that nerf also impacts them as well which is a problem GW needs to address OR as mentioned, implement the poorly written rule fairly across the factions. IF orkz have to suffer from morale, so should every other faction in proportion not to the fluff, but to their average army size at 2k points. So if morale kills 45% of Ork horde units, then it should kill 20%(ish) of elite units, as opposed to what it currently is which is it never matters.
    [spoiler]

    What if there was a two-part kunnin plan in place?
    1) Ruin all your ork boy hordes, knowing people will dump their now "useless" units, with the intent to sell you the "better" kommandos etc.
    2) next edition, improve the green tide again & re-sell you new boxes of Boyz.
    Wash/rinse/repeat edition after edition....
    What if??


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/09 06:54:21


    Post by: Dudeface


    SemperMortis wrote:
    Spoiler:
    Dudeface wrote:
    SemperMortis wrote:
    Sgt. Cortez wrote:
    I don't think Nids will be immune to morale. So far every morale immunity has been translated to "ignores modifiers to attrition" and I think the same will apply to Nids in range of synapse.


    Except again for the factions which never cared about morale in the first place, IE Power armor armies. I do really like Custodes getting LD11, just as a little last "Feth you orkz" note by the creators that they thought about morale and just want it to impact the NPC races .


    Honestly I think you need to accept that orks are not the bravest warriors in the cosmos and that as a horde unit they should be vulnerable to mechanics designed to control hordes. Oddly in 3 andn5 man units, marines tend to not notice these kicking in. Again direct your angst at the fact the morale mechanics are unrefined and not... thematic I guess? Rather than just moaning about orks being npcs.


    If we are going to get into fluff as rationale for a game wide rule only targeting reliably 1 faction and no others....you are going to have a bad time also, and which has previously been covered, Morale doesn't necessarily represent merely running away, it could be tactical retreats, it could be models lost to take care of the wounded, (Battlefield math, it takes 2 men to take care of 1 wounded) it could be a host of other things. The problem I have with it is that its only impactful against 1 faction atm. To put the ire into perspective, imagine if GW came out with a new mechanic which said ALL models have to be within 2' of 2 other models at all times or they are destroyed. Suddenly fielding 5 man Elite squads means you lose the last 2 models when the other 3 are killed. Losing 40% of your unit due to a poorly implemented rule would be a bit of a buzz kill wouldn't it? Well, that is currently how Horde units are currently designed...except its closer to 45%.

    You are correct in a way though. GW is trying to use Morale to "control" ork horde units, but in their wonderfully hamfisted style they over did it by a factor of about 10. They stripped all useful stratagems from Horde units, they stripped most character support, they stripped a special rule which incentivized max unit size they buffed Blast weapons to target hordes more reliably and finally they changed Mob rule for Orkz so that it doesn't really benefit them at all which leaves them fully exposed to morale. There is a reason why in 8th you saw 120+ model hordes and now in 9th you see the competitive lists not even taking 10 troop models. GW has massively over corrected and instead of making hordes slightly less competitive they have utterly destroyed them. Unfortunately for a lot of Ork units, that nerf also impacts them as well which is a problem GW needs to address OR as mentioned, implement the poorly written rule fairly across the factions. IF orkz have to suffer from morale, so should every other faction in proportion not to the fluff, but to their average army size at 2k points. So if morale kills 45% of Ork horde units, then it should kill 20%(ish) of elite units, as opposed to what it currently is which is it never matters.


    But they are, they just work around it by going msu so you basically kill the unit outright rather than reducing for morale. Boyz can come in 10s don't forget which largely negates morale losses if that was the main problem (when I think it's just a factor).

    But as I said before, give it 12 months and week see if chaos marines, guard, daemons and nidz all start up threads when they get the same.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/09 07:46:58


    Post by: Jidmah


    ccs wrote:
    What if there was a two-part kunnin plan in place?
    1) Ruin all your ork boy hordes, knowing people will dump their now "useless" units, with the intent to sell you the "better" kommandos etc.
    2) next edition, improve the green tide again & re-sell you new boxes of Boyz.
    Wash/rinse/repeat edition after edition....
    What if??


    Ruining everything that has been competitive for at least the following two editions has been a major theme for every ork codex. Nob bikers, lootas and kanz still haven't recovered from being competitive in 5th.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/09 07:57:06


    Post by: addnid


    Lootas had their short mob up time in the sun. Anyway I don’t think GW will throw us any bone soon, but if one was thrown, I would rather it be to stuff that was never ever good, like flash git’s and nauts rather than boyz


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/09 08:02:59


    Post by: Jidmah


     addnid wrote:
    Lootas had their short mob up time in the sun. Anyway I don’t think GW will throw us any bone soon, but if one was thrown, I would rather it be to stuff that was never ever good, like flash git’s and nauts rather than boyz


    It's quite telling about the quality of lootas that you had to more than tripple their output in order to make them competitive


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/09 15:00:16


    Post by: SemperMortis


    Dudeface wrote:


    But they are, they just work around it by going msu so you basically kill the unit outright rather than reducing for morale. Boyz can come in 10s don't forget which largely negates morale losses if that was the main problem (when I think it's just a factor).

    But as I said before, give it 12 months and week see if chaos marines, guard, daemons and nidz all start up threads when they get the same.


    As mentioned already in the thread, Boys MAIN problem is Morale.

    You can break Boyz into 3 competitive playstyles.
    1: Horde
    2: Trukk Boyz
    3: Deep strikers

    For ork boyz to be competitive they need to be good at those 3 things, either all of them, some of them or at the very least 1 of them. At the moment, they aren't good at any of them.

    For Horde to work, Morale more then anything else needs to be fixed. You can negate their lack of speed by sheer numbers. It wouldn't be a 1 thing fixes everything but it would definitely help. You would also need to give them character support so that they have bubble areas they can benefit from things. Painboy giving more than a 6+ would be nice, a KFF going back to 5++ would be even better.

    For Trukkboyz to be good you need to again address Morale AND you need to incentivize trukkboyz. At the moment they are only competitive in the 1 per detachment specialist mob and that isn't enough to make them competitive. 3 units of boyz spread over 3 separate detachments isn't a good playstyle for trukkboyz.

    For deep strikers to be competitive you again need to fix morale AND you need to make assault from deepstrike reliable. At the moment GW nerfed that style by taking away +1 to charge from Evil sunz and by nerfing Weirdboyz making them both more expensive and less reliable.

    As far as your other comment about waiting for the next few codex's...well that really is moving the goal posts since we've had both codex's released before Orkz and AFTER orkz all of which didn't give a flying fig about Morale. So saying "Well....maybe the next ones will have similar problems" isn't really helpful nor is it likely to be true.

     Afrodactyl wrote:
    Had a thought while discussing things in the Ork tactics thread:
    What if the 1:4 spanner:burna/loota system were ported over to boys mobs, but in a 1:9 ratio?
    So a mob of 30 boys would in fact be 27 boys and 3 nobs.
    This obviously doesn't resolve the morale issues being discussed, but it would give boys mobs a bit more bite to justify the points cost per model. Suddenly a mob has 3 Power Klaws or whatever you choose to arm them with and thus hits harder in CC, and is more likely to be of use when they reach the enemy.
    So 3 mobs of 10 and a single mob of 30 have the same amount of nobs, but with the latter you get more punching power out of your total number of troops slots.
    Obviously you're adding points to the unit to pay for the Big Choppas/Klaws/whatever, but I would say the cost of 3 Big Choppas or Klaws is leaps and bounds more justifiable than the equivalent cost of Big Shootas or Rokkits.


    It wouldn't help in the slightest honestly. You are still going to lose close to 50% of your mob to morale/attrition before it gets into CC and honestly the most efficient build for a Nob is double choppas rather then 30pts for PKs or 15pts for Big choppas since most of the time that extra pip of dmg is ignored by the plethora of -1dmg rules floating around. I would rather have a nob with 5 attacks base then a nob with 3 PK attacks.

     Jidmah wrote:
     addnid wrote:
    Lootas had their short mob up time in the sun. Anyway I don’t think GW will throw us any bone soon, but if one was thrown, I would rather it be to stuff that was never ever good, like flash git’s and nauts rather than boyz

    It's quite telling about the quality of lootas that you had to more than tripple their output in order to make them competitive


    The trick was to Mob Up a 15 and a 10 man loota squad (1CP), Give them exploding 5s (2CP) have them shoot twice (3CP) and then if shot at in return use Grot shields to protect them (1CP and 30-60 grots) And what you got was 25 lootas which averaged 47(ish) hits a turn with what amounts to a Autocannon. You could roll a bit hotter and get 3 shots which gave you a roughly 50% increase in hits but you were just as likely to roll a 1, so you likely saved another CP for a CP Re-roll.

    if you did NONE of the above you ended up with 25 lootas generating a grand total of....16.6 hits So its rather telling that the only time lootas were competitive (Barely) was when you sunk 6CP a turn into them (Sometimes 7-8) and as you mentioned you had to TRIPLE their output for them to become useful. And This so annoyed the competitive armies that they complained in such droves that within that edition GW nerfed them so that at best you could only take 15 lootas to do this trick which cut their dmg potential in half.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/09 16:17:42


    Post by: Afrodactyl


    SemperMortis wrote:

    It wouldn't help in the slightest honestly. You are still going to lose close to 50% of your mob to morale/attrition before it gets into CC and honestly the most efficient build for a Nob is double choppas rather then 30pts for PKs or 15pts for Big choppas since most of the time that extra pip of dmg is ignored by the plethora of -1dmg rules floating around. I would rather have a nob with 5 attacks base then a nob with 3 PK attacks.


    That's a fair enough assessment. I'm still trying to spitball a way of justifying the 9ppm cost (other than fixing their morale, which needs to happen regardless of anything else changing) rather than just saying "make boys cheaper".

    Still, I wouldn't say no to replacing 6 S4 attacks with 10 S5 attacks for free. It's not a lot but it would add up.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/09 16:22:36


    Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


    There’s no point in justifying the 9 ppm thing because orks aren’t really meant to be that way. Orks are one of those weird things where your quality comes from quantity… but also quality in some part. A drop to 7 (cause we lost kff and reliable deepstrike/charge) would be great.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/09 16:40:20


    Post by: Squidsy22


    I'm pretty sure the core of Orks is quantity and volatile quality, which pair nicely together since power units end up being either ridiculously cost-effective or totally useless and are numerous enough to average it all out.
    ...or at least, that's how I understand it.
    Orks are weird, who knew?


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/10 08:23:02


    Post by: Blackie


     Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
    There’s no point in justifying the 9 ppm thing because orks aren’t really meant to be that way. Orks are one of those weird things where your quality comes from quantity… but also quality in some part. A drop to 7 (cause we lost kff and reliable deepstrike/charge) would be great.


    Points costs have all changed. Gretchins used to be 3, trukks 30, etc... and that's true for other armies as well. Infantries and vehicles for marines were all much cheaper. 9ppm boyz simply reflect 9th edition general points costs. At 9ppm it's very possible to spam lots of boyz, 100 boyz don't even cost half budget of a standard game. We already have quantity, compare a footslogging ork list to a SM one: we field 3x bodies or even more, just like in the past.

    Take buggies and mek gunz, they used to be 40ish and 30ish points, then GW re-shaped them into more powerful (and expensive) units. Now they are finally both good. Why shouldn't boyz be the same? More expensive than they used to be but much more reliable, having better stats/rules/synergies. I'd certainly prefer going this way: making them better rather than making them cheaper. In 3rd edition choppa boyz (troop) and trukk boyz (fast attack) were 9ppm and both very good and spammable.

    Considering how crowded 9th edition tables already are 7ppm boyz could make sense only if standard games were lowered to 1500 points. And then lots of stuff should also need to get massive points drops, starting with gretchins. But at that point, even with a lower standard game size, we'll go back to hordes of super cheap stuff, exactly the kind of thing GW doesn't want anymore (thankfully!).

    I don't think it's realistic, or even fair, to make units like boyz really cheap considering the current state of 40k.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/10 09:45:48


    Post by: Jidmah


    Points aren't the issue:

    Thrakka 300
    Makari 55

    KFF mek 85
    KFF mek 85
    Weirdboy 70

    30 boyz, pk nob 280
    30 boyz, pk nob 280
    30 boyz, pk nob 280
    30 boyz, pk nob 280

    2 mek guns 90
    2 mek guns 90
    2 mek guns 90

    Total 1985

    This list would have been decent in 8th but is hot garbage in 9th. Even if you spent 3 CP to break down the 120 into more morale-friendly units of 10, it's still a fairly bad army.
    IMO that is good thing, because playing like this is super boring, but people like Tim feel differently.

    If you drop boyz to 7 points, this list essentially gains another 30 boyz, going from 120 to 150. Yet, it would still be garbage.

    Drop boyz to 6 points and you now end up with 160. Either this is the breaking point where skew starts to work and everyone facing this army will hate playing against it, or it's not low enough and it's still garbage. Yay!

    The only way to fix this is to make boyz worth 9 points.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/10 16:16:00


    Post by: brainpsyk


     Jidmah wrote:

    The only way to fix this is to make boyz worth 9 points.

    Ya, but we have to do that without boosting Trukk Boyz. TBs are sick because they're so fast, and if you get 1st turn, your opponent is fighting to get out of their DZ while our heavy hitters are moving up.

    We have to remember that most of the basic troop options in most codexes aren't that good. Intercessors, DE warriors, Boyz, AdMech S^b^b^b^b^b^b^b^b (Nvm... ), and even Plague and Rubric marines are just ok compared to other units. Even GK troops aren't uber compared to GK Interceptors.

    A Troops role isn't to be the best on the battlefield, their role is to be ObSec bodies holding an objective while everything else goes and contests the mid-board and fights the opponent's stuff. Furthermore, it's tough to justify boosting boyz while Orks are still quite capable of alpha-striking our opponents off the board turn 1/2.

    So the question is, do boyz perform their function of speed-bumping & screening, and I think that answer is yes. They are a little expensive, but @90 points they can still krump, they just get krump'd in return.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/10 16:22:20


    Post by: ccs


    Spoiler:
     Jidmah wrote:
    Points aren't the issue:

    Thrakka 300
    Makari 55

    KFF mek 85
    KFF mek 85
    Weirdboy 70

    30 boyz, pk nob 280
    30 boyz, pk nob 280
    30 boyz, pk nob 280
    30 boyz, pk nob 280

    2 mek guns 90
    2 mek guns 90
    2 mek guns 90

    Total 1985

    This list would have been decent in 8th but is hot garbage in 9th. Even if you spent 3 CP to break down the 120 into more morale-friendly units of 10, it's still a fairly bad army.
    IMO that is good thing, because playing like this is super boring, but people like Tim feel differently.

    If you drop boyz to 7 points, this list essentially gains another 30 boyz, going from 120 to 150. Yet, it would still be garbage.

    Drop boyz to 6 points and you now end up with 160. Either this is the breaking point where skew starts to work and everyone facing this army will hate playing against it, or it's not low enough and it's still garbage. Yay!

    The only way to fix this is to make boyz worth 9 points.


    Conclusion: pts are an issue. You feel you're not getting enough effect at 9ppm.

    The silver lining to 9ppm current Boyz not being worth it?
    ATM a few less of us have to face off against that boring-ass list you posted.
    While I'm the strongest proponent of building & bringing any mix the rules allow, and I'll do my best vs whatever is set up against me, that doesn't make it any less boring to play against something like that.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/10 17:16:10


    Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


    Boyz are just a different sort of infantry, they’re supposed to be the backbone of your army, tanking through sheer numbers and dealing good damage. They’re not a tarpit, they’re an unstoppable green tide.
    Part of why boyz were so durable was because they were so cheap, having more bodies than bullets is infinitely better than t5, especially combined with old kff. Orks we’re fundamentally based off of being cheap, tanky, buffable guys that you’d take loads of. By saying they’re suddenly 9 points you have to change the entire army because those aren’t orks anymore.
    And it’s not like cheaper boyz forces you to take green tide, it means that you can take a solid core of infantry, then also your toys, which is pretty cool.
    On the topic of green tide being boring to fight, most players I’ve seen who’ve done it have been moving boyz for so long that by the point you get 120+ boyz you can move em in your sleep.
    And if people hate playing against skew lists, that’s sort of the point. You assess the current game situation, then counter it. 4th ed ork dex directly encouraged bullying space marines and eldar by skewing.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/10 17:30:26


    Post by: Jidmah


    ccs wrote:
    Spoiler:
     Jidmah wrote:
    Points aren't the issue:

    Thrakka 300
    Makari 55

    KFF mek 85
    KFF mek 85
    Weirdboy 70

    30 boyz, pk nob 280
    30 boyz, pk nob 280
    30 boyz, pk nob 280
    30 boyz, pk nob 280

    2 mek guns 90
    2 mek guns 90
    2 mek guns 90

    Total 1985

    This list would have been decent in 8th but is hot garbage in 9th. Even if you spent 3 CP to break down the 120 into more morale-friendly units of 10, it's still a fairly bad army.
    IMO that is good thing, because playing like this is super boring, but people like Tim feel differently.

    If you drop boyz to 7 points, this list essentially gains another 30 boyz, going from 120 to 150. Yet, it would still be garbage.

    Drop boyz to 6 points and you now end up with 160. Either this is the breaking point where skew starts to work and everyone facing this army will hate playing against it, or it's not low enough and it's still garbage. Yay!

    The only way to fix this is to make boyz worth 9 points.


    Conclusion: pts are an issue. You feel you're not getting enough effect at 9ppm.

    The silver lining to 9ppm current Boyz not being worth it?
    ATM a few less of us have to face off against that boring-ass list you posted.
    While I'm the strongest proponent of building & bringing any mix the rules allow, and I'll do my best vs whatever is set up against me, that doesn't make it any less boring to play against something like that.


    Saying that points are the issue means that the solution would be adjusting points to a level where they become viable. You clearly do not want that.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    brainpsyk wrote:
    So the question is, do boyz perform their function of speed-bumping & screening, and I think that answer is yes.


    The answer is definitely no. Boyz are one of the worst units in the codex and people avoid playing them like the plague if they can. Trukk boyz are just barely playable, and nowhere near as good as intercessors.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/10 18:18:30


    Post by: Afrodactyl


     Jidmah wrote:

    brainpsyk wrote:
    So the question is, do boyz perform their function of speed-bumping & screening, and I think that answer is yes.


    The answer is definitely no. Boyz are one of the worst units in the codex and people avoid playing them like the plague if they can. Trukk boyz are just barely playable, and nowhere near as good as intercessors.


    When you consider that boys are only really used as Trukkboys now, your standard Ork Boy is effectively 16ppm taking the trukk into account. And that's a huge issue, and definitely not the cost you want to spend on a speedbump.

    Trukkboys only work because they can hit early, either alongside something like kommandos, bikers or stormboys, or they hit something crippled by buggies and finish it off.

    They are certainly not speedbumps.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/10 21:24:47


    Post by: brainpsyk


     Jidmah wrote:
    Trukk boyz are just barely playable, and nowhere near as good as intercessors.

    Uh... these guys disagree: https://youtu.be/MA2KcD0lwjI?t=377 (AoW top 10 units in 40k, @the right time index)


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/10 22:19:29


    Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


    Trukk boyz are just this editons version of a burna bommer, does a alright amount of damage but it’s more to mess with enemy deploy.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 03:01:36


    Post by: SemperMortis


    brainpsyk wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:

    The only way to fix this is to make boyz worth 9 points.

    Ya, but we have to do that without boosting Trukk Boyz. TBs are sick because they're so fast, and if you get 1st turn, your opponent is fighting to get out of their DZ while our heavy hitters are moving up.
    brainpsyk wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    Trukk boyz are just barely playable, and nowhere near as good as intercessors.

    Uh... these guys disagree: https://youtu.be/MA2KcD0lwjI?t=377 (AoW top 10 units in 40k, @the right time index)


    Uh... I don't give a damn what a couple of rando's say about an army that Jidmah and I have likely played for 40+ years. Your argument is a logical fallacy called "Argument from Authority" its invalid because the entire premise is based upon the valuation of the "authority". I give no credibility to your chosen "Authority". I'll point out that Reece said in 8th that the Stompa and killa kans were going to be amazing bordering on Brokenly good. So yeah...unless the person is a diehard Ork player I tend not to give their opinion much respect because unlike some armies, if you don't play orkz you don't have a clue.

    And with that said....Trukkboyz are BARELY playable. They are a 1st turn alphastrike unit....but they are literally just Kultureless Boyz so you get 27 S4 attacks and 5 S5 attacks hitting on 3s. Against a Marine unit that works out to 2.8 dead Marines a turn. So thats a 160pt unit killing 40(ish) points of Marine a turn. They aren't scary, they are just there to tie things up and cause a nuisance more then anything else, and furthermore they are limited to 1 per detachment. I take 3 units of these in my competitive list, I never expect them to do much, they are just their to dilute the turn 1 fire amongst my plethora of Alpha strike units. Turn 1 my opponent has to choose between shooting 3 units of Kommandos forward deployed, 3 units of trukkboyz who will be in charge range turn 1, 3 units of Warbikes who will charge turn 1 and 3 units of deffkoptas who can charge turn 1 or unleash 18 D3 rokkit shots and attempt a charge. Of all those turn 1 threats the trukkboyz are better than the warbikes in CC but significantly worse in Dakka and durability and compared to Kommandos (who are cheaper and significantly more durable and deadly) they are trash. Trukk Boyz are in need of a buff rather than a nerf or a glossing over.

    brainpsyk wrote:
    We have to remember that most of the basic troop options in most codexes aren't that good. Intercessors, DE warriors, Boyz, AdMech S^b^b^b^b^b^b^b^b (Nvm... ), and even Plague and Rubric marines are just ok compared to other units. Even GK troops aren't uber compared to GK Interceptors.

    Well lets go take a look, Intercessors....last 3 top placing marine lists have a combined 0 units of Intercessors...its almost like because they aren't good at their tasks nobody takes them and either takes useful units or skips troops entirely. huh....thats literally what ork players are doing because our "basic troop options" are trash which is why the last 4 Ork lists that have placed had a combined 3 units of MSU grots and no boyz at all...in other words the cheapest Troop tax possible, but only in 3 out of 8 detachments meaning they took a CP hit to not have to take troops.

    brainpsyk wrote:
    A Troops role isn't to be the best on the battlefield, their role is to be ObSec bodies holding an objective while everything else goes and contests the mid-board and fights the opponent's stuff. Furthermore, it's tough to justify boosting boyz while Orks are still quite capable of alpha-striking our opponents off the board turn 1/2.

    So the question is, do boyz perform their function of speed-bumping & screening, and I think that answer is yes. They are a little expensive, but @90 points they can still krump, they just get krump'd in return.
    ObSec is the most highly over rated ability in the game bar none. ObSec has literally mattered once for me in the last 6 months, almost every time it doesn't matter because the game is so deadly that the units locked on an objective either remove each other immediately or one side has more models and just controls it regardless.

    I'm one of the few ork players in the game currently running an alphork strike list, I do table opponents regularly in 1-2 turns, but I take 2-3 units of Trukkboyz and nothing else and only because they are blazingly fast rather than anything else. I don't take any other boyz, nobody in the competitive scene is currently taking boyz. So making boyz WORTH 9ppm is a pretty good idea if GW wants to have a shot in hell of shifting their new boyz kitz because atm there is no incentive to buy any for Ork players because the competitive lists aren't taking any.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
    Trukk boyz are just this editons version of a burna bommer, does a alright amount of damage but it’s more to mess with enemy deploy.


    Not even close lol. I had a duo of burna bommers doing the crash and burn trick in 8th. If my opponent deployed badly I could routinely earn back their points + some from just the crash part let alone dropping the bomb. I remember one game against Ad Mech where my opponent castled up for buffs and my burna bommer killed 2 HQs and more models then you would believe, basically crippled his army turn 1.

    In comparison, Trukkboyz routinely don't kill much, but what they do very well is tie up units my opponent had thought were far enough back as to be safe without a screen turn 1.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 04:59:47


    Post by: alextroy


     Jidmah wrote:
    Points aren't the issue:

    Thrakka 300
    Makari 55

    KFF mek 85
    KFF mek 85
    Weirdboy 70

    30 boyz, pk nob 280
    30 boyz, pk nob 280
    30 boyz, pk nob 280
    30 boyz, pk nob 280

    2 mek guns 90
    2 mek guns 90
    2 mek guns 90

    Total 1985

    This list would have been decent in 8th but is hot garbage in 9th. Even if you spent 3 CP to break down the 120 into more morale-friendly units of 10, it's still a fairly bad army.
    IMO that is good thing, because playing like this is super boring, but people like Tim feel differently.

    If you drop boyz to 7 points, this list essentially gains another 30 boyz, going from 120 to 150. Yet, it would still be garbage.

    Drop boyz to 6 points and you now end up with 160. Either this is the breaking point where skew starts to work and everyone facing this army will hate playing against it, or it's not low enough and it's still garbage. Yay!

    The only way to fix this is to make boyz worth 9 points.
    Or when you drop Boyz down to 7 points a model and gain 240 points to play with, you add one of the following:
  • 6 Meganobz
  • 20 Stormboyz
  • 2 Deff Dress
  • Anything else but 34 more Boyz
  • The point of cheaper Boyz is that they are so bad at 9 points that people don't want to take any outside of the odd Trukk Boyz unit.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 05:50:50


    Post by: brainpsyk


    SemperMortis wrote:

    Uh... I don't give a damn what a couple of rando's say about an army that Jidmah and I have likely played for 40+ years.

    If their opinion means nothing (since John Lennon is one of the best players in the game as it stands today), then your 40 years mean even less (doubly so since you now claim Appeal to Authority, triply so since I've been playing for almost 30 years) Furthermore, if that 40 years should have taught you anything, it's that the past is the past, what once was is not what is NOW. Time to move on.

    SemperMortis wrote:

    And with that said....Trukkboyz are BARELY playable. They are a 1st turn alphastrike unit....but they are literally just Kultureless Boyz so you get 27 S4 attacks and 5 S5 attacks hitting on 3s. Against a Marine unit that works out to 2.8 dead Marines a turn. So thats a 160pt unit killing 40(ish) points of Marine a turn. They aren't scary, they are just there to tie things up and cause a nuisance more then anything else, and furthermore they are limited to 1 per detachment. I take 3 units of these in my competitive list, I never expect them to do much, they are just their to dilute the turn 1 fire amongst my plethora of Alpha strike units. Turn 1 my opponent has to choose between shooting 3 units of Kommandos forward deployed, 3 units of trukkboyz who will be in charge range turn 1, 3 units of Warbikes who will charge turn 1 and 3 units of deffkoptas who can charge turn 1 or unleash 18 D3 rokkit shots and attempt a charge. Of all those turn 1 threats the trukkboyz are better than the warbikes in CC but significantly worse in Dakka and durability and compared to Kommandos (who are cheaper and significantly more durable and deadly) they are trash. Trukk Boyz are in need of a buff rather than a nerf or a glossing over.

    /snip

    I'm one of the few ork players in the game currently running an alphork strike list, I do table opponents regularly in 1-2 turns, but I take 2-3 units of Trukkboyz and nothing else and only because they are blazingly fast rather than anything else. I don't take any other boyz, nobody in the competitive scene is currently taking boyz. So making boyz WORTH 9ppm is a pretty good idea if GW wants to have a shot in hell of shifting their new boyz kitz because atm there is no incentive to buy any for Ork players because the competitive lists aren't taking any.

    /snip

    In comparison, Trukkboyz routinely don't kill much, but what they do very well is tie up units my opponent had thought were far enough back as to be safe without a screen turn 1.


    1- your math is off. 2.8 marines is ~56 points, for a 35% return, which is actually pretty good.
    2- "they are just there to tie things up and cause a nuisance more then anything else" - yep that's their job and they do it well
    3 - "they are just their to dilute the turn 1 fire amongst my plethora of Alpha strike units"- yep that's their job and they do it well
    4 - "Turn 1 my opponent has to choose between..." - yep, that's their job and they do it well
    5 - You're saying Trukkboyz are bad & barely playable, but if they were so bad you wouldn't take them at all. But, you take them THREE TIMES in your own list that you've gone 20-0 with and table your opponent in 2 turns!

    In conclusion, you contradicted your own argument that they're bad, while proving they do their job you pay for. Sounds like Trukk boyz are just fine.






    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 08:36:38


    Post by: Blackie


    Intercessors and kabalite warriors are definitely much better than boyz. Kabalites in particular since they have a similar set of stats, while intercessors are harder to compare properly.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    brainpsyk wrote:

    5 - You're saying Trukkboyz are bad & barely playable, but if they were so bad you wouldn't take them at all. But, you take them THREE TIMES in your own list that you've gone 20-0 with and table your opponent in 2 turns!


    A unit that works in a single list's archetype that only a few players are willing to use it's the book definition of barely playable .

    He plays 10+ units that can assault turn 1. That's an extreme approach to the game. And even then we still haven't seen anything like that winning GTs.

    Units like intercessors or kabalites can fit nicely in pretty much any list's archetype, which makes them good units. Not to mention that they regularly show up in the top lists at GTs.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    brainpsyk wrote:

    ...since John Lennon is one of the best players in the game as it stands today...



    I prefer Keith Richards .


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 09:30:22


    Post by: Jidmah


    brainpsyk wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    Trukk boyz are just barely playable, and nowhere near as good as intercessors.

    Uh... these guys disagree: https://youtu.be/MA2KcD0lwjI?t=377 (AoW top 10 units in 40k, @the right time index)


    They put trukk boyz in the top 10 but not kommandos?

    You can safely ignore them as people who have no clue about what they are talking about for anything ork related from here on out.

    Also, the appeal to authority/celebrity fallacy applies here, just because someone of renown says something doesn't mean they are right. You still need actual arguments.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    brainpsyk wrote:
    SemperMortis wrote:

    Uh... I don't give a damn what a couple of rando's say about an army that Jidmah and I have likely played for 40+ years.

    If their opinion means nothing (since John Lennon is one of the best players in the game as it stands today), then your 40 years mean even less (doubly so since you now claim Appeal to Authority, triply so since I've been playing for almost 30 years) Furthermore, if that 40 years should have taught you anything, it's that the past is the past, what once was is not what is NOW. Time to move on.


    I hate to break it to you, but your idol is not an ork player. I have found no traces of him ever winning anything with orks or even a battle rep of him playing orks against anyone.

    He is just another person of interest that is acting as arm-chair warboss but has not actual clue what the feth he is talking about - just like Nick Nanavati in 8th who told everyone how orks were the most powerful army ever and how they should be played, and then proceeded to place not even once with them over the course of almost four months, while experienced ork players had no issues doing so.

    And it's not just us, I even have data to back up my claim - in a recent poll I did with over 50 players from the ork community here on dakka with a combined experience of over half a century and ~600 games played with the current codex, trukk boyz ranked behind kommadoz, warboss on squigosaur, squigbuggies, scrap jets, kill rigs, dakka jets, wazzboms, warbikers and even deffkoptas, though just by a hair. Any tournament-winning army absolutely confirms that list.
    While you might argue about the kopta and warbiker placement, anyone putting trukkboyz before any of the other entries disqualifies himself.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     alextroy wrote:
    Or when you drop Boyz down to 7 points a model and gain 240 points to play with, you add one of the following:
  • 6 Meganobz
  • 20 Stormboyz
  • 2 Deff Dress
  • Anything else but 34 more Boyz
  • The point of cheaper Boyz is that they are so bad at 9 points that people don't want to take any outside of the odd Trukk Boyz unit.


    Why would you take those units ins such an army? Even at 5 points boyz will still be a bad unit that people don't want to take unless they enter skew territory.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 14:28:15


    Post by: Spoletta


    The fun thing is that now deffkoptas are considered among the dex most powerful units

    How fast times change.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 16:56:50


    Post by: Jayden63


    So I've not played a single game using new editions/codex since the end of fifth edition, and I find it really funny that this thread is echoing every Ork complaint since third. What to do with Da Boys. Trukk boys don't hit hard enough to be dependable, and mob of boys don't survive long enough to hit intact. So the army solution is to take more other stuff and always less boys.

    Just an observation, as I thought on what might do with my 160ish boys sitting around.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 17:59:51


    Post by: Jidmah


     Jayden63 wrote:
    So I've not played a single game using new editions/codex since the end of fifth edition, and I find it really funny that this thread is echoing every Ork complaint since third. What to do with Da Boys. Trukk boys don't hit hard enough to be dependable, and mob of boys don't survive long enough to hit intact. So the army solution is to take more other stuff and always less boys.

    Just an observation, as I thought on what might do with my 160ish boys sitting around.


    I think the big difference compared to old editions is that you can legitimately avoid taking boyz at all. Patrol detachments just require a single troops unit and outrider detachments require none at all. Of course, you pay CP to take these detachments, but orks mostly rely on powerful baseline units and don't have a lot of great stratagems to spend them on, plus you also get a specialist mob (=trukk boyz) for each detachment you take.

    The other thing is that nobz no longer make up for the lack of damage of the boyz. In 5th you would stick a nob with a PK in every mob to at least give them a chance to kill a vehicle or a unit of marines. In 9th a nob will kill a marine or two and do some minor damage to a vehicle, but that's about it.

    Having over 200 boyz myself, since the codex dropped I rarely take more than 3 mobs of 10 with me when gaming, the only reason to bring more for me is when playing an intro game for a new player or when I need hordes of orks for a narrative scenario.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 18:18:30


    Post by: brainpsyk


     Blackie wrote:

    A unit that works in a single list's archetype that only a few players are willing to use it's the book definition of barely playable .
    He plays 10+ units that can assault turn 1. That's an extreme approach to the game. And even then we still haven't seen anything like that winning GTs.

    So BA Sang Guard suck because they only work in assault type lists? IG TC's suck because they only work in shooting type lists?

    In 9th edition, doing 1 thing well in it's assigned role is better than performing a whole bunch of things poorly. There are units in the game that only perform one function, but as long as they perform that function well enough they can still be a good unit. In this case, TB's perform their role of an alpha-striking unit well enough.

    For comparison, an example of a really bad unit is the Hounds of Morkai. HoM are an expensive unit in a role that they don't do that well, plus you have to tailor your army around them and rely on your opponent to take a psyker-heavy list for HoM to be remotely effective. On the other hand, a decent single-purpose unit like my IG guardsmen perform their role of screening quite well with MMM! but only serve that one purpose because they can't psychic, shoot or melee. But since guardsmen are good at screening with MMM! you see 60 of them in every IG list. And with FRFSRF, you might actually kill a T3 model or 2.


     Blackie wrote:

    I prefer Keith Richards .




     Jidmah wrote:

    And it's not just us, I even have data to back up my claim - in a recent poll I did with over 50 players from the ork community here on dakka with a combined experience of over half a century and ~600 games played with the current codex, trukk boyz ranked behind kommadoz, warboss on squigosaur, squigbuggies, scrap jets, kill rigs, dakka jets, wazzboms, warbikers and even deffkoptas, though just by a hair. Any tournament-winning army absolutely confirms that list.
    While you might argue about the kopta and warbiker placement, anyone putting trukkboyz before any of the other entries disqualifies himself.

    And yet here's a tournament winning list that includes TBs and Storm Boys: https://spikeybits.com/2021/12/top-warhammer-40k-army-lists-paragon-city-games-gt.html

    Your data does not show that TBs are bad, just that there are better options (we'll ignore the subjectivity & local meta bias of the poll). As @Semper showed, and for the reasons stated in the AoW video, TBs have a role that they fill quite nicely. With a 25" average threat range (+waaaagh), TBs can hit your opponents back line turn 1, or shift from one side of the board to the other and steal objectives. That's the role of a TB, one they do that role well, that's why they're a good unit. But again, you have to tailor your army to a fast/alpha striking list to take advantage of that.

    Now that doesn't mean TBs fit well in every army list archetype, or every local meta, it just means they have their place.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 19:17:30


    Post by: Jidmah


    brainpsyk wrote:
    And yet here's a tournament winning list that includes TBs and Storm Boys: https://spikeybits.com/2021/12/top-warhammer-40k-army-lists-paragon-city-games-gt.html

    Your data does not show that TBs are bad, just that there are better options (we'll ignore the subjectivity & local meta bias of the poll). As @Semper showed, and for the reasons stated in the AoW video, TBs have a role that they fill quite nicely. With a 25" average threat range (+waaaagh), TBs can hit your opponents back line turn 1, or shift from one side of the board to the other and steal objectives. That's the role of a TB, one they do that role well, that's why they're a good unit. But again, you have to tailor your army to a fast/alpha striking list to take advantage of that.

    Now that doesn't mean TBs fit well in every army list archetype, or every local meta, it just means they have their place.


    Wow, you just put that goalpost into a lobba, launched it across a battlefield, where it hit a grot, which was then eaten along with the goalpost by a rampaging squigosaur, crapped out onto a mob of snotlings who were shortly after used as ammunition for a SAG and launched across the warp with a slightly too narrow warp tunnel to fill the mark X power armor of Lt. Joeus Doeus of the Ultramarines (who was having a really, really bad day up till now) with a foul smelling paste made of snotlings, goalpost and squigosaur turd.

    However, you literally said that boyz should not be buffed because John Lennon said on a (his?) youtube video that trukkboyz were one of the best 10 units, and not just for orks, but IN THE ENTIRE GAME.

    And to prove how right he is you link to a tournament winning list that not only pays 3 CP just to avoid having to play more than one unit of boyz, but also only plays just a single one of the 9TH BEST UNIT IN THE ENTIRE GAME and lets his second special mob go to waste instead of playing a second one of the 9TH BEST UNIT IN THE ENTIRE GAME. Of course, the list also plays 9 units from that biased and subjective list worth a total 1075 points in addition to the trukk boyz and 110 points worth of stormboyz. But I guess that just show how powerful the 9TH BEST UNIT IN THE ENTIRE GAME is when just one of them single-handedly carries all those inferior unit to a tournament win.

    Congratulations you've played yourself.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 19:19:30


    Post by: alextroy


    Jidmah wrote:
     alextroy wrote:
    Or when you drop Boyz down to 7 points a model and gain 240 points to play with, you add one of the following:
  • 6 Meganobz
  • 20 Stormboyz
  • 2 Deff Dress
  • Anything else but 34 more Boyz
  • The point of cheaper Boyz is that they are so bad at 9 points that people don't want to take any outside of the odd Trukk Boyz unit.


    Why would you take those units ins such an army? Even at 5 points boyz will still be a bad unit that people don't want to take unless they enter skew territory.
    You missed my point, which was making Boyz cheaper doesn't mean an army that is taking Boyz is going to take even more Boyz. If you want X Boyz in your list, then making them cheaper means you have points left over to take other units.
    brainpsyk wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:

    And it's not just us, I even have data to back up my claim - in a recent poll I did with over 50 players from the ork community here on dakka with a combined experience of over half a century and ~600 games played with the current codex, trukk boyz ranked behind kommadoz, warboss on squigosaur, squigbuggies, scrap jets, kill rigs, dakka jets, wazzboms, warbikers and even deffkoptas, though just by a hair. Any tournament-winning army absolutely confirms that list.
    While you might argue about the kopta and warbiker placement, anyone putting trukkboyz before any of the other entries disqualifies himself.

    And yet here's a tournament winning list that includes TBs and Storm Boys: https://spikeybits.com/2021/12/top-warhammer-40k-army-lists-paragon-city-games-gt.html
    An army that includes 1 unit of Trukk Boyz in a Patrol detachment doesn't prove Trukk Boyz are good. It just proves that they decided a unit of Trukk Boyz was more useful than losing 2 CP or taking either a unit of foot Boyz or Gretchen. Not a very high bar to cross.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 19:24:08


    Post by: Dendarien


    I would rather boyz just get better than become super cheap for all the reasons outlined by Jidmah. I'm not really sure how you accomplish that, but boyz feel awful in melee right now.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 19:29:10


    Post by: Jidmah


     alextroy wrote:
    You missed my point, which was making Boyz cheaper doesn't mean an army that is taking Boyz is going to take even more Boyz. If you want X Boyz in your list, then making them cheaper means you have points left over to take other units.

    I think we keep missing each other's point here. Maybe we should start over?

    Bluntly said, my opinion is that with their current statlines, weapons and rules, the number of boyz I want in my list is zero. The main reason to take some anyways is because patrols (especially the first one in your list) cost less CP than outrider or spearhead detachments.

    Reducing their points doesn't really change that issue.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/11 22:19:54


    Post by: SemperMortis


    brainpsyk wrote:

    If their opinion means nothing (since John Lennon is one of the best players in the game as it stands today), then your 40 years mean even less (doubly so since you now claim Appeal to Authority, triply so since I've been playing for almost 30 years) Furthermore, if that 40 years should have taught you anything, it's that the past is the past, what once was is not what is NOW. Time to move on.
    As jidmah politely pointed out, that video lists their opinion of the most powerful units in the game. There is not a single Ork player who plays competitively who would rank Trukk Boyz ahead of Kommandos. Literally everything Trukkboyz do is done better by Kommandos. A unit of 10 kommandos with PK and bomb squig is 110pts starts the game in cover about 9' from the enemy deployment zone. They are T5 with either a 3+ armor save or 4+ with -1 to hit thanks to the cover save and special rules. They reliably get into CC every game for me and when they do...they hit like a wrecking ball. The 9 Kommando boyz on a WAAAGH turn do 36 attacks, 30 hits, 25 wounds and 12.5dmg vs a Marine statline, so right off the bat the regular guys just killed 6 Marines, or 120pts The nob swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 2.2 wounds and 1.8 more dead Marines. All told you are likely looking at a single Kommando squad killing 8 Marines a turn, and thats not even using its Bomb squig which reliably hits and does 2 mortal wounds to a target. So, the kommando unit which is significantly cheaper, just as durable (more so in cover) and also does 4x more dmg and can do the exact same job as the Trukkboyz somehow didn't make that clowns list. Some armies are common place enough where people know whats good and what isn't. Orkz are not one of those armies.

    So to summarize, someone who doesn't play orkz, commenting on what they consider the best ork unit to be is of little value when statistically we can prove them to be horribly wrong, in both dmg output, durability and ability to do more then 1 mission.
    brainpsyk wrote:

    1- your math is off. 2.8 marines is ~56 points, for a 35% return, which is actually pretty good.
    2- "they are just there to tie things up and cause a nuisance more then anything else" - yep that's their job and they do it well
    3 - "they are just their to dilute the turn 1 fire amongst my plethora of Alpha strike units"- yep that's their job and they do it well
    4 - "Turn 1 my opponent has to choose between..." - yep, that's their job and they do it well
    5 - You're saying Trukkboyz are bad & barely playable, but if they were so bad you wouldn't take them at all. But, you take them THREE TIMES in your own list that you've gone 20-0 with and table your opponent in 2 turns!
    In conclusion, you contradicted your own argument that they're bad, while proving they do their job you pay for. Sounds like Trukk boyz are just fine.

    1 - fair enough, I rounded down when I should have rounded up to 60. And NO, a 35% return on a unit that ONLY does dmg in CC and isn't durable is not a good return on investment. As I pointed out with the Kommandos, they get more than 100% return when they get into CC in a single round.
    2 - They are just there to tie things up - yes they do this job, just pray god your opponent doesn't have a fight first ability or is durable enough to soak up the dmg and wipe out the boyz on the return swing.
    3 - No they don't. I've experimented with taking other units, sadly the ork army isn't blessed with anymore alpha strike units which are fast enough or durable enough to do the job. Trukkboyz are in a tie with Stormboyz which I don't take because they tend to die turn 1 since they don't get the benefit of a trukk to hide in. If you got rid of the rule of 3 I would take 4 more units of Kommandos instead, or more deffkoptas, but I wouldn't take more trukkboyz.
    4 - Same as 3, no they don't there just aren't any other better options that I haven't maxed out the rule of 3 with.
    5 - Yes I take them, My list archtype depends on alpha threat overload to force my opponent into a turn 1-2 concession. If I had better options or was allowed to break the rule of 3 I wouldn't take any. They just aren't good compared to other units like Deffkoptas, Kommandos etc. If I didn't want Warbosses piggybacking on the trukk, I'd likely just get rid of them and take beastbosses on squigosaurs instead, problem being is that they aren't any faster and cost more then a regular warboss as well as not synergizing with the rest of my list.

    In conclusion, you did your best to dodge the point that trukkboyz AREN'T in a good spot, if they got to keep their kulture they would probably be doing ok, but without at least that, they are relegated to lists like mine which require alpha strike units.

     alextroy wrote:
    You missed my point, which was making Boyz cheaper doesn't mean an army that is taking Boyz is going to take even more Boyz. If you want X Boyz in your list, then making them cheaper means you have points left over to take other units.

    Except, nobody is currently taking ANY boyz, so reducing their price wouldn't save you any points it would just make a bad unit cheaper. There is no good price point for the current iteration of Boyz, they are either going to be garbage tier because their rules and price, or they are just going to be cheap spam units that slow the game down at 5-6ppm. There isn't a happy middle ground with their price, the correct answer is going to be buffing boyz to make them worth 9ppm. Fixing morale is a step in the right direction and likely giving them some kind of buff to make them a credible threat. I really like the idea of removing Trukk boyz from the game and just taking that rule and tying it into Boyz in general. With good morale that would likely fix MSU boyz if nothing else.

    brainpsyk wrote:And yet here's a tournament winning list that includes TBs and Storm Boys: https://spikeybits.com/2021/12/top-warhammer-40k-army-lists-paragon-city-games-gt.html


    How old is the Ork codex now? 5 months (beast snagga release) and how many Trukk boyz are making appearances in top 4 GTs and majors? If we are going to use 1 offs as an example that something is good then may I present to you the definitely not in need of buffs Tau Armyhttps://www.40kstats.com/june2021" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://www.40kstats.com/june2021 which placed 4th at the Atlantic City GT back in June. I mean, they haven't placed since, but that doesn't matter right? Because 1 example of winning with something is proof that its good and not an anecdote right?


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/12 21:05:01


    Post by: brainpsyk


    -You guys are the ones saying nobody takes TBs in tournament winning lists, yet they are being taken in tournament winning lists...
    -You guys are the ones saying TBs are barely playable, yet you're playing them (3x) in your 20-0 list...
    -You say Kommando's punch way above their weight class with ~140% ROI, so buff TBs. That's not a reason to buff TBs, that's a reason to nerf kommandos.
    -You say nobody would take TBs if they could take more kommandos. Well fancy that. It's almost as if the rule of 3 is there to prevent power gamers from spamming broken units...
    -You say TBs have no place, yet by your own logic and reasoning they do have a place that you and the top players in the game agree on.

    The cognitive dissonance/group think in this thread (and Dakka Dakka in general) is really impressive. If you weren't so busy screaming "the sky is falling", you would realize TBs aren't so bad, and are actually quite powerful yet balanced.



    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/12 21:06:40


    Post by: Jidmah


    Or maybe you are just moving goalposts, put words into our mouths and are creating an incoherent argument because you refuse to accept when you are wrong.

    Oh, and TB is the shorthand for TankBustas, not Trukk Boyz.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/12 21:46:20


    Post by: SemperMortis


    brainpsyk wrote:
    -You guys are the ones saying nobody takes TBs in tournament winning lists, yet they are being taken in tournament winning lists...
    -You guys are the ones saying TBs are barely playable, yet you're playing them (3x) in your 20-0 list...
    -You say Kommando's punch way above their weight class with ~140% ROI, so buff TBs. That's not a reason to buff TBs, that's a reason to nerf kommandos.
    -You say nobody would take TBs if they could take more kommandos. Well fancy that. It's almost as if the rule of 3 is there to prevent power gamers from spamming broken units...
    -You say TBs have no place, yet by your own logic and reasoning they do have a place that you and the top players in the game agree on.

    The cognitive dissonance/group think in this thread (and Dakka Dakka in general) is really impressive. If you weren't so busy screaming "the sky is falling", you would realize TBs aren't so bad, and are actually quite powerful yet balanced.



    Let me know when Trukk Boyz routinely appear in GT/Major winning lists as opposed to a one off anecdote. Ironically, another GT winner just ran Trukk boyz...except it wasn't trukkboyz it was Trukk Meganobz with the Trukkboyz sub kulture because they didn't want sub par Boyz models when they could instead run Meganobz. That is another option I have strongly considered, I just think Meganobz are over priced at the moment and since they aren't troops I don't want to spend the CP or be forced to take another sub par unit. I view my Trukkboyz as the best available troop tax rather then a "Good" part of my list. So your argument devolves from "LOOK THEY ARE WINNING GTS!" To "they placed once in a GT" and you go from "You're the one taking them in your list!" to "its the least bad available troop tax". LMAO, that line of reasoning would mean that all the tax units in the old 7th edition super formation were "good" because you had to take them if you wanted the benefits of the rest of your army .

    Bud, you talk about cognitive dissonance and yet you are the one building your entire argument on logical fallacies.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/12 23:05:12


    Post by: Mr Raptor


    I have a lot of boyz, but the new codex made me quit playing big 30 blobs of them. I usually take a few to have my tropps, and also the sensation of playing a green tide, but only in 10 man units now.

    This is kind of a shame they headed the codex that way, especially considering they made a new ork boyz kit.

    I don't do tournaments, only local and sometime semi-competitive lists. But lately it's been kind of a bother to take boyz in any way.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/13 07:47:05


    Post by: Blackie


     Mr Raptor wrote:
    I have a lot of boyz, but the new codex made me quit playing big 30 blobs of them. I usually take a few to have my tropps, and also the sensation of playing a green tide, but only in 10 man units now.


    I wouldn't mind fielding multiple 10 man squads of boyz in footslogging based lists if they were worthy to be honest. I like boyz, I want to field them, but not necessarily as a green tide.

     Mr Raptor wrote:

    This is kind of a shame they headed the codex that way, especially considering they made a new ork boyz kit.


    The new kit is so odd that I fear boyz will go the route of Plague Marines in 10th.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/13 17:55:30


    Post by: brainpsyk


    SemperMortis wrote:
    So your argument devolves from "LOOK THEY ARE WINNING GTS!" To "they placed once in a GT" and you go from "You're the one taking them in your list!" to "its the least bad available troop tax". LMAO, that line of reasoning would mean that all the tax units in the old 7th edition super formation were "good" because you had to take them if you wanted the benefits of the rest of your army .
    Bud, you talk about cognitive dissonance and yet you are the one building your entire argument on logical fallacies.

    From that, you don't even get what a logical fallacy is.

    The whole argument is "Boyz suck and nobody takes them because they aren't OP like the rest of the units my 20-0 alpha strike list". Yet you take three of them (self contradiction). Here's the kicker, you could take Outrider/Spearhead/Etc. detachments and not pay the troop tax at all, or you could take gretchin, eliminating the trukks and boyz entirely saving ~300 points toward other higher-tier units, yet you don't.

    Again, you're the ones claiming nobody takes them in tournament winning lists (hasty generalization), whereas I have shown they are taken, and I only need 1 example to prove the contradiction (e.g. if p => q, ~q => ~p)

    Again, you refer to an old edition which is a) irrelevant and b)straw man as I never made any claims about editions 2-8.

    You say I need to show multiple examples, yet you haven't gone thru BCP and shown that TBs aren't in every list (the burden of proof is on you, not me. I only need the single example to show the contradiction). Furthermore, boyz absent from a list are not proof that they suck and need a buff, it's only evidence that there are better options.

    And just for the nail in the coffin:
    SemperMortis wrote:

    Joking aside, I was rather bored at the last tournament. All my games ended turn 1 and turn 2 so I was stuck waiting for 1+ hour for my next matchup each time.

    Looks like there yet another is a tournament-winning list by somebody named "SemperMortis" that takes 3 of them


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/13 18:51:09


    Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


    We can actually see that boyz suck through other things, we don’t see boyz, Snagga boyz, lootas, burnas, and in most cases stormboyz being taken. The boy stat line is just sort of bad for the price.
    They’re bad because in earlier editions boyz were able to actually do stuff as troops, but the modern game design doesn’t let troops be anything but utility.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/14 01:49:50


    Post by: SemperMortis


    brainpsyk wrote:

    The whole argument is "Boyz suck and nobody takes them because they aren't OP like the rest of the units my 20-0 alpha strike list". Yet you take three of them (self contradiction). Here's the kicker, you could take Outrider/Spearhead/Etc. detachments and not pay the troop tax at all, or you could take gretchin, eliminating the trukks and boyz entirely saving ~300 points toward other higher-tier units, yet you don't.


    I take a single unit of boyz in my detachments as a troop tax to get my 3 warbosses and slots for all my Fast attack choices. I then use a once per detachment buff to turn them into Trukk boyz so that they fit into my list as opposed to being a useless unit that does nothing more than occupy space. If I took Grots instead I would go from 3 units of trukkboyz, in trukkz, transporting my warbosses, costing me 480pts to 150pts of useless models that literally can't do anything except hold backfield objectives and pray that nobody shoots at them because they have 7+ saves and melt when looked at, especially with LD4. On top of that, as mentioned, the ork codex isn't littered with Alpha strike units meaning the "savings" would be spent on making kopta/warbiker squads bigger which isn't a good thing since with LD6 and LD7 you want MSU to avoid leadership to the best of your ability. I would also have to take some of those "saved" points and either upgrade my warbosses from foot sloggers to Beastbosses on Squigosaurs which both cost more points and don't synergize with my list thanks to the beastsnagga keyword. So just in warbosses, I go from spending 90-100pts per warboss to 145pts for Beastbosses on squigosaurs, So that 330pts of savings from not taking trukkboyz gets cut to about 185pts, and now instead of having 3 alpha strike units I have 3 useless units that don't do much. So those 185pts can go into what? 3 more deffkoptas? 7ish more warbikes? I don't want to increase my Kommando squads past 10 because of blast rules....so what do I spend those points on that would directly benefit an alpha strike list? So you are talking about an army and a play style you fundamentally don't understand if you think taking other cheaper troops would be better. And as far as just Not taking troops at all and going outrider/spearhead...yeah, I could theoretically do this but I then lose out on a lot of CP and can only afford 2 detachments instead of 3 which means I also lose a warboss who are arguably one of the best units in our codex atm. Maybe I'm missing something, so please explain, what do I do with those points in a competitive list? What do I do for CP on the strats I do use if I don't take troops?

    brainpsyk wrote:
    Again, you're the ones claiming nobody takes them in tournament winning lists (hasty generalization), whereas I have shown they are taken, and I only need 1 example to prove the contradiction (e.g. if p => q, ~q => ~p)
    If I used an absolute, my apologies, I should have said "almost nobody". And 1 example proves nothing since as shown, Tau won a top placing in a tournament, that in and of itself is not evidence that the Tau army is "competitive" its just a piece of anecdotal evidence.

    brainpsyk wrote:
    Again, you refer to an old edition which is a) irrelevant and b)straw man as I never made any claims about editions 2-8.
    Your claim is that a required unit is competitive/ok because it HAS to be taken or there aren't any better options to replace it. I showed an example of that not being the case, if you want a 9th edition version of that exact same argument, look at MSU troops choices taken by a host of factions. Case and point, the recent Portal Fall GT which was won by Daniel Wohlmuth where he won 1st place utilizing a Battalion filled with MSU SOB squads where 1 squad had 1 heavy/special weapon and that was it. Total troops was 15 models totaling 170pts. He took 3 squads of Sisters of battle, does that mean they are good? or is it just the cheapest/most effective troops choice he was required to take to save CP?

    brainpsyk wrote:
    You say I need to show multiple examples, yet you haven't gone thru BCP and shown that TBs aren't in every list (the burden of proof is on you, not me. I only need the single example to show the contradiction). Furthermore, boyz absent from a list are not proof that they suck and need a buff, it's only evidence that there are better options.

    1: 40kstats records all GTs/Majors as opposed to BCP which records all tournaments which isn't a good metric since it includes 8-12 person tournaments where 1-2 people might bring net lists while everyone else is bringing fluffy lists or sub par lists. Only downside to 40kstats is their admins are a bit lazy, atm they only have up to September recorded which leaves october and november up in the air. And in 40kstats the last time a Trukk Boyz (TB is Short for Tankbusta) appeared was.....christ I got bored looking, not in September entirely. Oh! I found it. Back in August right after the codex got released, Rich Kilton, who is currently ranked 4th in the ITC rankings for Ork players and 99th in the world played a single list that had 2 units of trukkboyz in it. He also fielded multiple MSU boyz squads and afterwards never placed again with that list. So when you say the burden of proof is on me...well no, you provided one list where they appeared, I provided 1 more. So between the codex coming out and right now 2 lists out of hundreds have used Trukk boyz. That is proof positive of the point I made. Your failure to grasp this point shows either a lack of understanding of the ork army, or a willful disregard for facts.

    2: Boyz not appearing in lists on a regular basis even as a required Troop tax meaning the player has to expend CP in order NOT to take boyz is in fact proof that they are bad and in need of a buff. Competitive players routinely will give up CP in order to not have to spend any points on boyz or grots because they are literally that bad.


    brainpsyk wrote:
    SemperMortis wrote:
    And just for the nail in the coffin:
    Joking aside, I was rather bored at the last tournament. All my games ended turn 1 and turn 2 so I was stuck waiting for 1+ hour for my next matchup each time.

    Looks like there yet another is a tournament-winning list by somebody named "SemperMortis" that takes 3 of them


    Yes, a local tournament not a GT/RTT. Sadly because of family and job requirements I have not been able to attend a single GT this year. So if we are going to water down the metric of success of a unit to any tournament, then almost every single unit in the game is competitive because I can likely find some muppet who placed in a FLGS tournament with a ridiculous list...anecdotally, like the time I won a tournament in 7th using a ridiculous Killakan/deff/morkanaut list. those were some of the worst units in 7th edition for orkz, but I still won due to drawing really bad opponents and luck That is why Anecdotes are not themselves evidence and must be taken with a large grain of salt. In order for them to have any value they must also be lumped together with substantiating evidence or a host of other anecdotes.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/14 07:09:03


    Post by: Jidmah


    Semper, don't waster your time. He literally moved the goal post from "trukk boyz are OP" to "people aren't not playing them, so they must be good".

    He literally has no argument besides "bUT thEy ARe iN ToP liSTs!!!111" without even understanding why they are there.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/14 10:18:47


    Post by: JawRippa


    Would boyz be fixed if they had a 5+ save instead of 6+?


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/14 10:37:34


    Post by: Jidmah


     JawRippa wrote:
    Would boyz be fixed if they had a 5+ save instead of 6+?


    Probably not. The issue is more related to boyz struggling to kill even troops like guardsmen or necrons than surviving. 5+ is ignored by half the game anyways.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/14 11:49:30


    Post by: Dudeface


     Jidmah wrote:
     JawRippa wrote:
    Would boyz be fixed if they had a 5+ save instead of 6+?


    Probably not. The issue is more related to boyz struggling to kill even troops like guardsmen or necrons than surviving. 5+ is ignored by half the game anyways.


    Oddly I don't think killing power has been directly an issue so far, my understand of the issues from most to least problematic were:

    Morale
    Delivery
    Redundancy due to other units
    Cost
    Then output


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/14 12:37:22


    Post by: Jidmah


    It's kind of all of the above.

    Their "niche" used to be having 20-30 models and thus taking some effort to remove in addition to strength in numbers. Morale, modern engagement range rules and the ineffectiveness of rank&file guns like shootas killed that niche.

    Without that niche, all other orks either have better delivery mechanisms (bikers, storm boyz, kommadoz) or are more killy (burna boyz, lootas, nobz, beastsnaggas).

    Cost aren't the issue in my opinion, as I've lined out above.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/14 12:53:55


    Post by: Not Online!!!


     JawRippa wrote:
    Would boyz be fixed if they had a 5+ save instead of 6+?


    Considering the AP inflation on the most common normal gun and unit... it in essence would give you a SV 6+ back.
    If you gave orks an 4+ instead, yeah that would start to matter significantly especially against marines being the most common AP slinging enemy right now.

    Which would still leave moral and explosive numbers counter to the ork boy big mob.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/14 12:54:28


    Post by: Mr Raptor


    I preferred them when they were T4 but immune to morale.

    And also a bit cheaper, because i do a lot of 1000pts games and it was really fun to field almost a hundred of them in that format when they were still 6ppm. Back then it was a real threat because your opponent was like "i'll never have enough ammos for that", but now...


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/14 15:21:42


    Post by: Goreshrek


    Using the WayBack Machine, in 5th Boyz could take multiple big shootas and rokkits. A unit of 10 could take 3, plus 1 for the nob. Prior to that, the loadout varied by clan. So without changing the cost, boyz mobs could be made much more useful.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/14 15:29:42


    Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


    8th boyz (all special rules) at 6 points with ap 1 choppas would be where it’s at. Assuming 5++ kff anyways.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/14 15:55:53


    Post by: Jidmah


    Goreshrek wrote:
    Using the WayBack Machine, in 5th Boyz could take multiple big shootas and rokkits. A unit of 10 could take 3, plus 1 for the nob. Prior to that, the loadout varied by clan. So without changing the cost, boyz mobs could be made much more useful.


    That might have been an earlier edition, this is from 4th edition's codex:

    Spoiler:


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/14 18:46:26


    Post by: Goreshrek


    >>That might have been an earlier edition, this is from 4th edition's codex:

    D@mn I am old.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/15 01:00:25


    Post by: SemperMortis


     JawRippa wrote:
    Would boyz be fixed if they had a 5+ save instead of 6+?


    Honestly? No. As an example of why not, lets take a look at the wonderful new Tau codex. A pulse rifle now is Ranged 36 (Doesn't have to move turn 1 pretty much ever) S5 (wounds orkz on 4s) and -1AP meaning atm No armor save, but if Orkz got bumped to 5+, they would go back to their 6+ save. Whats worse, on turns 1-3 if they target the closest unit, it goes to AP-2 and they get to re-roll wound rolls of 1. So a unit of 10 Firewarriors, in Double tap range puts out (unbuffed) 20 shots, 10 hits, 5.8 wounds and even with 5+ armor, 5.8 dead Boyz. Assuming they don't get a points bump, thats 90pts of Firewarrior killing 52.5pts of Orkz in a single turn of shooting. if they start at max range and only get 1 shot per gun instead of 2 its 26.25pts a turn 1 which means by turn 3 they will have completely made their value back unsupported/unbuffed. But don't worry, if by some miracle the orkz survive turn 2, on turn 3 the Tau get the previously mentioned benefit AND score double hits on a 6 if within 12' range (which if they aren't within that range its already GG). Lethality in the game is going up up and up, a 5+ save would give the boyz a bit more durability but not nearly as much as you would expect. Hell, intercessors start the game with -1AP on their weapons, and on tac turns it becomes -2AP
     Jidmah wrote:

    Probably not. The issue is more related to boyz struggling to kill even troops like guardsmen or necrons than surviving. 5+ is ignored by half the game anyways.


    Boyz definitely are more deadly then in previous editions on a per model basis, but yeah, you are correct in general. Per model a single boy is now 3 attacks base with -1AP, in 8th a choppa boy was 3 attacks base with no AP, so right off the bat the new models seem better. pt comparison, in 9th, 99pts of boyz is 11 models, in 8th 98pts of boyz was 14. So lets compare.

    11 boyz currently get 33 attacks, 22 hits, 11 wounds and against Marines 5.5dmg. The 8th edition boyz got 42 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds and 4.6dmg. So new boyz win by 0.9dmg per 98(ish) points. Here is the kicker though, when you upgrade that to double, 22 Boyz are currently 198pts and get 66 attacks, 44 hits, 22 wounds and 11dmg, the 8th edition boyz though...they get 112 attacks, 75(ish) hits and 12.4dmg vs a Marine. Why the increase? Because when 8th edition boyz were over 20 models they got +1 attack each, boyz no longer get this benefit. Not to mention, in 9th, you can't fit as many boyz into CC thanks to the increase in base size and the reduction of engagement range. So overall boyz are slightly less damaging then they used to be. To make up for that, I think boyz should get probably another attack, or buff their WS to hit on 2s...which sadly would make most buffs we do currently get from buffing characters...useless (+1 to hit).

    And if you think giving boyz +1 attack would make them broken, i'll point out that in 7th edition, a unit of 10 boyz on the charge did 40 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 3.3 dead Marines. That used to be 60pts of Orkz killing just shy of 50pts of Marines in a turn, or a return on investment of 83.3% Today, those same 10 boyz do 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg or 2.5 dead Marines, which is now 90pts of Ork killing 50ish points of Marine which is a return on investment of 55.5% Buffing boyz to 3 attacks base (+1 for choppas) would mean 40 attacks, 26.6 hits, 13.3 wounds and 6.6 dmg or 90pts of Ork killing 66ish points of Marine. A return on investment of 73.3%, still not as good as 7th edition, but a hell of a lot better than it currently is.

    Dudeface wrote:

    Oddly I don't think killing power has been directly an issue so far, my understand of the issues from most to least problematic were:

    Morale
    Delivery
    Redundancy due to other units
    Cost
    Then output


    As I showed above, its definitely a part of the problem. Boyz are not as deadly vs their most likely opponent as they used to be. Morale, Delivery and cost just exacerbate this problem. Redundancy isn't as much of a problem as you would think because the ork army generally relies on redundancy to get the job done. Why attack with 1 mob when you can attack with 3?

     Jidmah wrote:
    It's kind of all of the above.
    Their "niche" used to be having 20-30 models and thus taking some effort to remove in addition to strength in numbers. Morale, modern engagement range rules and the ineffectiveness of rank&file guns like shootas killed that niche.
    Without that niche, all other orks either have better delivery mechanisms (bikers, storm boyz, kommadoz) or are more killy (burna boyz, lootas, nobz, beastsnaggas).
    Cost aren't the issue in my opinion, as I've lined out above.


    And jidmah and I completely agree here, especially about the shoota. Choppa boyz are the closest troop choice we have to being almost worth taking. Shoota boyz.....holy crap are they useless. In 7th a unit of 10 shoota boys at 18' range would get 20 shots, 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds and 1.1 dead Marines, those same shoota boyz now cost 50% more and average 50% as many dead Marines, in other words they now get 20 shots, 6.6 hits, 3.3 wounds and 0.55 dead Marines. Thats a return on investment of 27.5% going to 12.2%. To kill a single Space Marine now requires 18 boyz, and boyz now cost 9ppm meaning its 162pts of Boyz to kill 1 Marine with shootas. That just isnt' worth doing. You could literally DOUBLE shootas to become Dakka 6(4) and it would just reduce the cost to 81pts to kill 20pts of Marine, still not worth it honestly. And realistically, who wants to roll that many dice just to kill a single Marine?

    Goreshrek wrote:
    Using the WayBack Machine, in 5th Boyz could take multiple big shootas and rokkits. A unit of 10 could take 3, plus 1 for the nob. Prior to that, the loadout varied by clan. So without changing the cost, boyz mobs could be made much more useful.


    Sadly even if you could take 3 special weapons per 10 boyz you still wouldn't fix boyz. A Big shoota is massively overpriced at 5pts, if you took 3 of them you would up a boyz mob from 90pts to 105, those 3 big shoota would put out Dakka 5(3), turn 1 its likely 9 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds and 0.66dmg to a Marine. Thats 42pts of Ork doing a grand total of about 6.6pts of dmg to a Marine. If you get within half range you go to 15 shots, 5 hits 3.2 wounds and 1.06dmg to a Marine, so 42pts of Ork doing about 10pts of dmg to a Marine.

    A rokkit on the other hand is 10pts, if you put 3 in a mob of boyz and didn't move you get 6 shots, 2 hits, 1.6 wounds and about 3.2dmg to a Marine. That would be 57pts of Boyz killing 32pts of Marine, not a bad return on investment, sadly the rest of the boyz wouldn't pick up the slack, so the other 63pts of boyz would only manage to kill about 0.38 Marines or about 7.7pts of dmg. So the 10 boyz would then cost 120pts and kill about 40pts of Marine so long as they didn't move, if they did move you can cut the rokkit dmg in half.

    To put it more bluntly, in 8th edition I almost NEVER equipped special weapons on my boyz mobz because GW has never figured out how to balance their weapons costs correctly. The only time I took a special weapon on a boyz mob was if I had a couple points left over and literally no other upgrades available.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/15 07:23:43


    Post by: Moriarty


    Don’t know about the maths, but my take would be to have GW hire some people who can do the job, rather than throwing +1 T at Orks and shouting ‘look, new models’.

    Orks are a really simple faction. The bigger they are, the better they get. They shoot lots, but rely on this volume for effect. Every Ork is a hooligan at heart. It beggars belief that they could cock this up.

    Rules wise, other factions are not going to be toned down, so I’d say to ‘make Boyz great’ they need a points increase. I know this is unlikely to happen, but the ‘game standard’ Marine seems about twice as effective as in previous editions (subjective). Fewer enemy models on the table means less Morale problems for Orks.

    Oh, and scrap the Ld characteristic, and substitute ‘Size’. Make the Shooting ‘To Hit’ roll BS vs Sz so smaller models are harder to hit, and larger easier. You know it makes sense :-)


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/15 07:52:33


    Post by: Jidmah


    The +1T worked well for all units but boyz though, and it was a good changed.
    And no, they don't need a point increase to be made great again.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/15 08:02:04


    Post by: Blackie


    SemperMortis wrote:


    To put it more bluntly, in 8th edition I almost NEVER equipped special weapons on my boyz mobz because GW has never figured out how to balance their weapons costs correctly. The only time I took a special weapon on a boyz mob was if I had a couple points left over and literally no other upgrades available.


    To be fair in 3rd edition maxing out special weapons on boyz squads was the norm. Rokkit launchas were only 5 points so 10-12 man squads of shoota boyz with 3 rokkits and possibly a 4th on the nob were good. Boyz could have burnas which counted as power weapons in combat, an excellent option for choppa guys. Big shootas were, as always, the worst option available and also the most expensive one .

    Only problem was that boyz kit didn't come with any special weapons so you needed to buy tons of blisters just to properly equip your troops. Even the nobz had to be bought separately .

    Since the 4th edition codex the nob has been the only upgrade worth taking for boyz. I could still see a (little) value on 10 man squads of boyz with three 5ppm rokkits though and good value on 10 man squads of boyz with three cheap AP-3 weapons.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/15 15:17:16


    Post by: SemperMortis


    Moriarty wrote:
    Don’t know about the maths, but my take would be to have GW hire some people who can do the job, rather than throwing +1 T at Orks and shouting ‘look, new models’.

    Orks are a really simple faction. The bigger they are, the better they get. They shoot lots, but rely on this volume for effect. Every Ork is a hooligan at heart. It beggars belief that they could cock this up.

    Rules wise, other factions are not going to be toned down, so I’d say to ‘make Boyz great’ they need a points increase. I know this is unlikely to happen, but the ‘game standard’ Marine seems about twice as effective as in previous editions (subjective). Fewer enemy models on the table means less Morale problems for Orks.

    Oh, and scrap the Ld characteristic, and substitute ‘Size’. Make the Shooting ‘To Hit’ roll BS vs Sz so smaller models are harder to hit, and larger easier. You know it makes sense :-)


    I mentioned this somewhere else, but I was talking about making Orkz T5 about a year ago Looks like they listened. Sadly the problem isn't that GW gave them +1 T and said "good enough" and "Look, new models" The problem is that they gave Orkz +1 T and then immediately gave into the massive outcry from other armies saying orkz would be broken blah blah blah and to appease the mob they nerfed basically everything that made ork boyz competitive in 8th. No more reliable/useful buffs, no more reliable deep strike, no more reliable delivery methods, no more stratagem support and most importantly, no more morale. And on top of that they changed the games fundamental rules to punish horde units/armies. New Blast rules, new coherency rules and new Morale rules gutted the Ork boyz mob to basically only function in MSU style and only then as a tax at best. At this point in time with the Ork codex there isn't a reason to bring boyz, but even if they incentivized you to take them, you would still only take MSU and give them 0 support because they just don't function like they are supposed to.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/15 15:31:26


    Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


    I think a maybe fun way to fix boyz is first just do away with morale on em, then have each klan massively buff boyz in some way, kommandos are good even though they’re boyz, but that’s cause they have a ton of buffs. What if all evil sunz boyz had 8” move and had like a +3 to charge?, those might be better. Maybe bad moonz boyz all get +2 shots on their weapons, and Freebootas have super obsec, where they can take objectives away from other things with obsec.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/16 12:34:35


    Post by: Mr Raptor


    I think having morale in a board game is very important. Most battles irl are won because of moral issues that can then be exploited by the winning side to push their advantage. Almost never because of a complete annihilations after a battle to the death.

    But 40k has a very simplistic and poorly implemented moral system. If you obliterate 2/3 of an army but kill only whole units, nobody's gonna bat an eye, but if you kill 5 boyz in a 30 man blob you might loose a dozen more that fled for their life. This is kind of ridiculous.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/16 15:28:59


    Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


     Mr Raptor wrote:
    I think having morale in a board game is very important. Most battles irl are won because of moral issues that can then be exploited by the winning side to push their advantage. Almost never because of a complete annihilations after a battle to the death.

    But 40k has a very simplistic and poorly implemented moral system. If you obliterate 2/3 of an army but kill only whole units, nobody's gonna bat an eye, but if you kill 5 boyz in a 30 man blob you might loose a dozen more that fled for their life. This is kind of ridiculous.


    Honestly, in any other game yes. In 40k things have just gotten to the point that no one except guard, genestealers, and tau should worry about morale, and even then at that point they’d have ways to get around it.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/16 15:52:53


    Post by: Jidmah


    Agree, 40k is everything but realistic combat. Morale just has no place in a game where insane heroism is the norm for everyone.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/16 16:37:52


    Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


    Honestly, I feel like leadership would be best shown through strats, space marines get a billion seperate 1cp ones that mesh together cause of leadership and tactics, orks just get big, brutally simple 3-4 cp ones that just make things hit harder.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/18 12:51:49


    Post by: SemperMortis


     Jidmah wrote:
    Agree, 40k is everything but realistic combat. Morale just has no place in a game where insane heroism is the norm for everyone.


    Gotta be honest Jid, I agree. I really like the idea of morale. I would really like to see it implemented in the game....but as it currently stands it just isn't implemented fairly at all.

    Similarly I like the concept of -1 to hit...Its just not implemented fairly.

    5 Autocannon Havocs are 130pts, they get 8 shots for 5.3 hits. When they get hit with -1 to hit this drops to....4 Thats a drop of 25%
    8 Lootas (including 1 required spanna) are 136pts they get 14-21 shots and 4.6 to 7 hits. When they get hit with -1 to hit this drops to 2.3 and 3.5 That is a drop of 50%

    The game just needs to work on implementing rules it wants to use more equally across the different armies. Trust me I know how hard that is with umpteen different armies in the game, not to mention sub factions and kultures/regiments etc.



    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/19 19:01:18


    Post by: morganfreeman


     Blackie wrote:


    Since the 4th edition codex the nob has been the only upgrade worth taking for boyz.


    It's worth noting that, in 6th and 7th edition (while using the 4th ed codex), you actually wanted to take one special weapon per squad of boyz. That was because you could give it to the Nob, and then the "Precision Shots" mechanic meant that any time your nob rolled a 6 to hit you got to assign that hit to a specific model in the target unit. So while nobz rarely hit, 50% of the time they hit you could absolutely merc one of the valuable guys in whatever squad you were shooting at.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/19 21:25:37


    Post by: Jidmah


     morganfreeman wrote:
     Blackie wrote:


    Since the 4th edition codex the nob has been the only upgrade worth taking for boyz.


    It's worth noting that, in 6th and 7th edition (while using the 4th ed codex), you actually wanted to take one special weapon per squad of boyz. That was because you could give it to the Nob, and then the "Precision Shots" mechanic meant that any time your nob rolled a 6 to hit you got to assign that hit to a specific model in the target unit. So while nobz rarely hit, 50% of the time they hit you could absolutely merc one of the valuable guys in whatever squad you were shooting at.


    That was only a thing in 6th, and you needed to advance almost every turn which back then meant no shooting whatsoever. Even if you did all that, you still needed to wound the enemy and have them fail their save. If the special model was a character they still could also just LoS! the wound. It was generally considered to be not worth the points, especially not in the edition of FMC, re-rollable 2++ deathstars and ADLs everywhere.

    And technically speaking, that would still be a nob upgrade.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/20 15:41:22


    Post by: SemperMortis


     morganfreeman wrote:
     Blackie wrote:


    Since the 4th edition codex the nob has been the only upgrade worth taking for boyz.


    It's worth noting that, in 6th and 7th edition (while using the 4th ed codex), you actually wanted to take one special weapon per squad of boyz. That was because you could give it to the Nob, and then the "Precision Shots" mechanic meant that any time your nob rolled a 6 to hit you got to assign that hit to a specific model in the target unit. So while nobz rarely hit, 50% of the time they hit you could absolutely merc one of the valuable guys in whatever squad you were shooting at.


    Pretty much what Jidmah said. Nobz were the only worthwhile "upgrade" for boyz. Realistically the big shoota has been trash tier for most of its existence while Rokkitz were situational in 7th, IE if you had a few pts left over, take as many rokkitz as you could since they were the go to Marine Killer. Mind you, in the earlier editions you also upgraded that Nob to have a PK since it was in some cases the only way to make Boyz capable of damaging Vehicles


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/21 17:08:40


    Post by: G00fySmiley


     Jidmah wrote:
    The +1T worked well for all units but boyz though, and it was a good changed.
    And no, they don't need a point increase to be made great again.


    honestly it would have even worked for boyz i think if they just left mob rule in place boyz would be in a ok place. I have played a few games with consenting players just seeing how it would be with the old mob rule where leadership = squad size and my ork horde list had about a 50-50 win to loss rate (3/6 games) they were pretty close games in both cases. we also kept counts of how many boyz would have been gone using current morale and the orks would probably have lost 6/6 games. Not enough games or controlled factors for games to get valid data, but anecdotally i can say just giving it back made T5 boys seem to be a decent unit worth taking.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/21 23:28:08


    Post by: SemperMortis


     G00fySmiley wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    The +1T worked well for all units but boyz though, and it was a good changed.
    And no, they don't need a point increase to be made great again.


    honestly it would have even worked for boyz i think if they just left mob rule in place boyz would be in a ok place. I have played a few games with consenting players just seeing how it would be with the old mob rule where leadership = squad size and my ork horde list had about a 50-50 win to loss rate (3/6 games) they were pretty close games in both cases. we also kept counts of how many boyz would have been gone using current morale and the orks would probably have lost 6/6 games. Not enough games or controlled factors for games to get valid data, but anecdotally i can say just giving it back made T5 boys seem to be a decent unit worth taking.


    It really depends on what type of list your are playing against, and I don't mean matchup wise i mean competitiveness of the list itself. Biggest problem with boyz in 8th was dmg output wasn't nearly high enough. 30 boyz had 120 attacks 80 hits, 40 wounds and 13.3dmg vs a Marine unit. So 210pts of Orkz killed 6.6 Intercessors or 133ish points. 210pts of boyz is now 23.3, thats 70 attacks, 46.6 hits, 23.3 wounds and 11.6dmg vs Marines so 5.83 dead Marines or 116ish points of dead Intercessors. And of course that isn't even taking into account the new larger base size, the smaller close combat engagement range etc. So why did boyz spam work in 8th? Because of buffs. Specifically 5++ KFF and 6+ FNP from a painboy who was also healing Ghaz for D3 wounds a turn (medisquig). T4 Boyz with a 5++ and a 6+ FNP are MORE durable then T5 boyz.

    T4 vs 100 bolter hits: 100 hits, 50 wounds 33.3 dmg after invuln and 27.7 after FNP. Total of 194pts of dead boyz
    T5 vs 100 bolter hits: 100 hits, 33.3 wounds 27.7dmg after armor save (if they get one). Total of 250pts of dead boyz.

    That Big Mek with KFF went up in price dramatically even though it got noticeably worse, the Painboy did as well. They lost all their strat support, specifically fight twice.

    Morale is absolutely the biggest problem facing ork boyz right now, but lack of dmg output, durability and speed/delivery are close behind.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/22 14:59:05


    Post by: G00fySmiley


    SemperMortis wrote:
     G00fySmiley wrote:
     Jidmah wrote:
    The +1T worked well for all units but boyz though, and it was a good changed.
    And no, they don't need a point increase to be made great again.


    honestly it would have even worked for boyz i think if they just left mob rule in place boyz would be in a ok place. I have played a few games with consenting players just seeing how it would be with the old mob rule where leadership = squad size and my ork horde list had about a 50-50 win to loss rate (3/6 games) they were pretty close games in both cases. we also kept counts of how many boyz would have been gone using current morale and the orks would probably have lost 6/6 games. Not enough games or controlled factors for games to get valid data, but anecdotally i can say just giving it back made T5 boys seem to be a decent unit worth taking.


    It really depends on what type of list your are playing against, and I don't mean matchup wise i mean competitiveness of the list itself. Biggest problem with boyz in 8th was dmg output wasn't nearly high enough. 30 boyz had 120 attacks 80 hits, 40 wounds and 13.3dmg vs a Marine unit. So 210pts of Orkz killed 6.6 Intercessors or 133ish points. 210pts of boyz is now 23.3, thats 70 attacks, 46.6 hits, 23.3 wounds and 11.6dmg vs Marines so 5.83 dead Marines or 116ish points of dead Intercessors. And of course that isn't even taking into account the new larger base size, the smaller close combat engagement range etc. So why did boyz spam work in 8th? Because of buffs. Specifically 5++ KFF and 6+ FNP from a painboy who was also healing Ghaz for D3 wounds a turn (medisquig). T4 Boyz with a 5++ and a 6+ FNP are MORE durable then T5 boyz.

    T4 vs 100 bolter hits: 100 hits, 50 wounds 33.3 dmg after invuln and 27.7 after FNP. Total of 194pts of dead boyz
    T5 vs 100 bolter hits: 100 hits, 33.3 wounds 27.7dmg after armor save (if they get one). Total of 250pts of dead boyz.

    That Big Mek with KFF went up in price dramatically even though it got noticeably worse, the Painboy did as well. They lost all their strat support, specifically fight twice.

    Morale is absolutely the biggest problem facing ork boyz right now, but lack of dmg output, durability and speed/delivery are close behind.


    boyz with mob rule are admittedly not doing major damage, there are other things in the codex for that, but removing 120 boyz not running from morale and overpowering them on objectives just doesn't really work. with the current missions boyz with old mob rule score you points without running away while providing enough of a threat that the opponent has to think about hwo they will deal with them without throwing just anything at them.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/24 02:16:03


    Post by: SemperMortis


     G00fySmiley wrote:


    boyz with mob rule are admittedly not doing major damage, there are other things in the codex for that, but removing 120 boyz not running from morale and overpowering them on objectives just doesn't really work. with the current missions boyz with old mob rule score you points without running away while providing enough of a threat that the opponent has to think about hwo they will deal with them without throwing just anything at them.


    Lets take morale out of the equation. 60 boyz right now costs you 540pts, In 8th I could take 60 boys (420pts) AND a big mek with KFF and a painboy for about the same price.

    To kill a 8th edition boy with KFF and painboy with bolters takes the same amount then as it does now to kill a 9th edition Boy at T5. 5.4 bolter shots.

    5.4 shots, 3.6 hits, 1.8 wounds, 1.2 after KFF and 1 after FNP.
    5.4 shots, 3.6 hits, 1.2 wounds, 1 dead after 6+ armor.

    60 boyz in 8th gave you 240 attacks, with larger engagement range meaning more could wing.
    60 boyz in 9th is at most 180 attacks, with smaller engagement range meaning fewer can swing.

    In 8th you could give boyz +1 on the charge via evil sunz and "Da Jump" them reliably with a weirdboy and have a great chance of a successful charge thanks to old "Ere We Go" rules which allowed you to re-roll either 1 or both dice for the charge.

    In 9th you CANT give boyz +1 on the charge anymore, Da Jump became less reliable, you have at best around a 50% of a successful charge.

    In 8th those boyz had a lot of strat support, including my favorites Green Tide and fight twice. Both/all of the good strats for boyz are gone.

    There is just too much right now stacked up against boyz to make them reliable/competitive without a host of buffs being given to them.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/31 13:28:22


    Post by: Apocalypse81


    Nope. Been playing Orks for 25 years. Im damn glad to have a play option that doesn't involve huge blobs of boys.
    I still play them once in a while, but im very happy that Orks are Toys over Boys at the moment.
    The huge boys lists were boring and stale.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/31 20:23:32


    Post by: SemperMortis


    Apocalypse81 wrote:
    Nope. Been playing Orks for 25 years. Im damn glad to have a play option that doesn't involve huge blobs of boys.
    I still play them once in a while, but im very happy that Orks are Toys over Boys at the moment.
    The huge boys lists were boring and stale.


    Both are extremes. Some players enjoy boyz and green tide though. It would be nice if they were at least competitive, as it stands they were only competitive in 8th as a counter-meta build. Easy to win with 180 boyz when your opponent only brought Plasma/melta

    I enjoy Toyz as much as the next Ork players, I just would like to actually take troops choices and have them serve a purpose.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2021/12/31 23:32:58


    Post by: Grimskul


    Yeah, pretty much. I don't want the extremes either. Just having a troops choice that doesn't feel like dead weight without taking Trukk Boyz or a tax would be nice.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2022/01/01 05:41:06


    Post by: Apocalypse81


    SemperMortis wrote:
    Apocalypse81 wrote:
    Nope. Been playing Orks for 25 years. Im damn glad to have a play option that doesn't involve huge blobs of boys.
    I still play them once in a while, but im very happy that Orks are Toys over Boys at the moment.
    The huge boys lists were boring and stale.


    Both are extremes. Some players enjoy boyz and green tide though. It would be nice if they were at least competitive, as it stands they were only competitive in 8th as a counter-meta build. Easy to win with 180 boyz when your opponent only brought Plasma/melta

    I enjoy Toyz as much as the next Ork players, I just would like to actually take troops choices and have them serve a purpose.


    Oh, I get it, I'm not hating on the style, its been a classic thing in 40k, but I've been ready to move on for a while.
    As is, point for point they don't work. And with their absolutely terrible morale, and boys being still 1w, I don't know how you fix it. Its so easy knock some off and then let Morale destroy their lines.

    I played against a Boyz heavy list last weekend with my Black Templars. He had three 30 mans. In the second round I charged one squad on a center board objective with 14 Primaris Crusaders with Helbrecht behind them giving his aura of +1 str, while grimaldus gave them a second vow (Suffer not the unclean to live- 6's auto wound)for one turn with Fervent Acclamation and then Psalm of Remorseless Persecution (6's cause mortals in addition) by using Bombastic Delivery.

    I cut down 11 orks with TERRIBLE rolls with the crusaders. He lost 5 more to Helbrecht., and then 3 more ran.

    He killed 2 crusaders fighting back.

    I Collapsed his other flank with a second squad of Crusaders and a Chaplain on bike.

    By the end of turn 3 he had lost well over 60 boys as my bladeguard and redemptors joined in, so he had no obsec on any objectives in the center, and held two in his zone. I maxed out Primaries early in turn 4, while maxing out Engage and ROD. Then my Chaplain took down Ghaz because my opponent misunderstood Tannhausers bones (any damage, no matter how high is reduced to one, where he misunderstood it as damage reduced by one).

    I know thats a stupid long post, but it just demonstrates how easily they fall apart for 5 turns, my opponent never crossed center board with anything but a Burnan Bomba. Honestly, the only way I can see them being workable is if GW gave them back great green tide, and even then he couldn't have moved me off objectives, and I would have just broken his line a second Time. At the end, he had 12 boys left on an objective in his end, a rukkatrukk on the other, a boss bunka, and ten Lootas, and I never really made a push into his zone because it was already feel bad. I didnt have to screen anything. This guy is a very good Ork player. He beat me in an RTT with his Army of Renown right after the codex dropped, and we practice for tournaments together.

    He wants to try 6×30 squads sometimes soon, as well as 6×20 Beast Snagga in a Snakebite list because hes determined to keep trying. Which is fine, because I have a Crusaders deathball I want to try. 3 squads of 14 crusaders, each backed with a Redemptors loaded with gattling guns, one with Helbrecht, one with Grimaldus, and one with Chaplain on Bike. Filling it out to 1996pts are 2x6 Vanguard Veteran squads in deep strike. I'll call it the Black Wall.

    I really can't wait to try that against the horde of green beasts! Again, sorry for the rambling thoughts of an old guy who often plays against Orks (and plays Orks, but right now im not competing with them).


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2022/01/01 16:10:14


    Post by: DrGiggles


    Apocalypse81 wrote:
    SemperMortis wrote:
    Apocalypse81 wrote:
    Nope. Been playing Orks for 25 years. Im damn glad to have a play option that doesn't involve huge blobs of boys.
    I still play them once in a while, but im very happy that Orks are Toys over Boys at the moment.
    The huge boys lists were boring and stale.


    Both are extremes. Some players enjoy boyz and green tide though. It would be nice if they were at least competitive, as it stands they were only competitive in 8th as a counter-meta build. Easy to win with 180 boyz when your opponent only brought Plasma/melta

    I enjoy Toyz as much as the next Ork players, I just would like to actually take troops choices and have them serve a purpose.


    Oh, I get it, I'm not hating on the style, its been a classic thing in 40k, but I've been ready to move on for a while.
    As is, point for point they don't work. And with their absolutely terrible morale, and boys being still 1w, I don't know how you fix it. Its so easy knock some off and then let Morale destroy their lines.



    They need better support through other units or strats, and a damage buff. Possible ideas I had that could address those issues are below.

    1) An FAQ to give nobs/Warbosses the old Breakin Ead's to help with the morale issue

    2) Add a bonus to the WAAAGH! rule that lets CORE units be immune to morale while the WAAAGH is in effect.

    3) Give the painboy a reason to exist by giving him a strat to revive 2d3 boys a turn or just making it part of his datasheet

    4) Buff powerklaws so they can do more than chip away at things like dreadnoughts, make it 1+d3 or just flat 3.

    5) Give boys +1 to wound if 20+ boys remain in the unit. Idea for this came from Helsreach where the orks were no match in small numbers but were able to wound the templars when they had overwhelming numbers.

    The last one is probably too strong to give to a troops unit, but giving orks one or more of these changes could help.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2022/01/01 18:56:48


    Post by: Jidmah


     DrGiggles wrote:
    They need better support through other units or strats, and a damage buff. Possible ideas I had that could address those issues are below.

    1) An FAQ to give nobs/Warbosses the old Breakin Ead's to help with the morale issue

    Cool idea. It would also give nobz a niche. something which they are currently lacking.
    For warbosses, you could also slap a +1 LD aura on them. For the first time ever, this is something people actually want.

    2) Add a bonus to the WAAAGH! rule that lets CORE units be immune to morale while the WAAAGH is in effect.

    Doesn't even have to be CORE, you could just go for MOBZ.

    3) Give the painboy a reason to exist by giving him a strat to revive 2d3 boys a turn or just making it part of his datasheet

    That's a bit too powerful. Giving it the same revive ability as many other armies have would already be great.

    4) Buff powerklaws so they can do more than chip away at things like dreadnoughts, make it 1+d3 or just flat 3.

    Nah, PKs are fine. If you need to punch a hole through a -1 damage vehicle, that's what tankbusta bombs are for.

    5) Give boys +1 to wound if 20+ boys remain in the unit. Idea for this came from Helsreach where the orks were no match in small numbers but were able to wound the templars when they had overwhelming numbers.

    It's a good thing those horde buffs went away, and re-introducing them would not be a good thing. Instead, you could just give them a "green tide" rule that extends engagement range to 3", so you can actually get all those attacks of big mob to bear. Neither would fix the issues that small units are having though.
    +1 wound also has this ridiculous side-effect that they suddenly become good at grinding down units which they normally wouldn't be able to touch. Boyz, don't need to be able to kill everything to become decent again, being able to kill something would be nice though. Regularly bouncing of 5 intercessors or immortals is not a place where boyz should be, they should totally mulch basic infantry in combat.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2022/01/01 20:11:26


    Post by: SemperMortis


     DrGiggles wrote:

    They need better support through other units or strats, and a damage buff. Possible ideas I had that could address those issues are below.
    1) An FAQ to give nobs/Warbosses the old Breakin Ead's to help with the morale issue
    2) Add a bonus to the WAAAGH! rule that lets CORE units be immune to morale while the WAAAGH is in effect.
    3) Give the painboy a reason to exist by giving him a strat to revive 2d3 boys a turn or just making it part of his datasheet
    4) Buff powerklaws so they can do more than chip away at things like dreadnoughts, make it 1+d3 or just flat 3.
    5) Give boys +1 to wound if 20+ boys remain in the unit. Idea for this came from Helsreach where the orks were no match in small numbers but were able to wound the templars when they had overwhelming numbers.
    The last one is probably too strong to give to a troops unit, but giving orks one or more of these changes could help.


    1 is functionally useless. On a mob of 30 if I lose 6 boyz and fail morale I statistically lose 1 more to morale and then 4 more to Attrition. This "ability just makes it so instead of 5 for big mobz I lose 1-3, still not much better, way better than paying for a strat mind you, but the fact that it relies on a warboss/nobz unit to be nearby is itself a bit of a nerf since Warbosses are hard to get now and Nobz just kind of stuck.

    2 is nice to have, but it just makes ork armies fearless turn 1 and turn 2. Turn 3 morale is likely a non-issue or just another nail in the coffin

    3: too powerful. I kind of like the thematic idea of allowing the painboy to bring back a dead model on a 5+. This is AFTER the enemy is done shooting. So if you lost 9 boyz, the dok would then scavenge the pieces and stitch 3 living boyz back together. In the fluff this happens and they immediately return to the fray. Fluffy, Fun, and useful. would almost justify the dok existing.

    4: i'm with jidmah on this one as well. PK's are sadly doing ok for where they are. The problem is the plethora of -1dmg running around right now, but you can't buff PKs to 3dmg without having secondary consequences like Gravis armor and other 3wound models losing value.

    5: Again, with Jidmah. I like the idea of boyz getting another buff in their statline, but I DO NOT want to tie it into size of the mob. I really like Trukk boyz, I think making that an abilily of Boyz rather then just a 1 off per detachment would make them at least competitive, especially if they keep their kulture.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2022/01/02 08:15:20


    Post by: Blackie


    Painboys should definitely be able to revive fallen infantry or biker models just like their counterparts from other armies. And +1 to wound is a massive upgrade, always. Something that should be really hard, if not flat out impossible, to get. Especially on low-mid strenght weapons such as choppas.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2022/01/02 08:39:58


    Post by: Spoletta


    As I always repeat, troops shouldn't be good because of stats but because they interact well with the faction rules.

    For example, giving this rule to boyz:

    Da' big fight!: Every time a Waaagh! or a Speedwaaagh! is declared, if this unit has less than the starting amount of models, you can roll a dice for each of those missing models.
    On a roll of 4+ you can add that model back to this unit. That model can only set up within Engagement Range of enemy units that are already within Engagement Range of this unit.


    This partly covers the weakness to morale, since you want to completely delete the units, and also encourages bringing big units.


    Make Ork Boyz Great Again @ 2022/01/02 21:17:00


    Post by: SemperMortis


    Spoletta wrote:
    As I always repeat, troops shouldn't be good because of stats but because they interact well with the faction rules.

    For example, giving this rule to boyz:

    Da' big fight!: Every time a Waaagh! or a Speedwaaagh! is declared, if this unit has less than the starting amount of models, you can roll a dice for each of those missing models.
    On a roll of 4+ you can add that model back to this unit. That model can only set up within Engagement Range of enemy units that are already within Engagement Range of this unit.


    This partly covers the weakness to morale, since you want to completely delete the units, and also encourages bringing big units.


    Doesn't fix the boyz models though. If you have a big blob of 30 boyz foot sloggin, it takes them 2 full turns just to cross the No mans Land. If the enemy doesn't pull back, and has deployed forward you could theoretically declare a WAAAGH turn 2 and have them charge. If they lost 6 models each turn they would on average lose 12 to battle dmg, 2 to morale and about 8 to attrition. So just killing 6 a turn brings the mob down to 8 models. On a 4+ they regain 11 models...honestly, I think your opponents would have an issue with you getting 99pts back for no reason other then WAAAGH You are still surrendering too many models turn 1 to the opponent so that on turn 2 they would just finish the mob off with relative ease. Remember, Turn 1: Kill 6, lose 1 to morale, lose 4 to attrition. Enemy killed 6, morale killed 5, mob is down to 19. Add in how lethal the game is becoming and you realize that killing 19 T5 wounds with basically no armor isn't that hard.