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[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/18 23:42:43


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


Sounds like we are getting a new Codex next year, but how would -you- all fix Tau to be able to reasonably play the mission in 9th Edition?

My take:

Tau need to avoid the worst extremes of the triptide drone castle nonsense from previous eras and return to 'highly mobile fire teams' in the lore. They need to be able to compete with the other armies over objectives and not have the 'best' builds be immobile gunlines (boring!)

+Crisis Suits could be troops, and able to be the core of your army if you want
+Jump Shoot Jump or similar should be a thing. IF we don't have any possible melee and psychic options then we need something to counterbalance those gaps
+Assault Transports / Fish of Fury: having a ton of transports running around disgorging fragile breachers for point blank shenanigans (but how do we make this distinct from Druks?)
+Melee Crisis Suits: There's no reason anime gundam suits shouldn't have big 'ole laser swords to help compete in the 9th era

I think it would just be more 'fun' for both Tau players and opponents if we had more opportunities to play to the 9th edition ruleset and get in there and mix it up instead of the old giant drone castle builds.

What are you all's hopes for the new Tau Codex?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 00:09:40


Post by: dewd11


Like you said, the ability to not be useless in melee would go a long way. That plus some more durability would mean Tau could actually play the objectives without being brushed off.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 00:36:39


Post by: Amishprn86


They need a new book honestly. They are broke at many fundamental levels. 1 being the only play in 1 phase of the game for start.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 00:48:55


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


 Amishprn86 wrote:
They need a new book honestly. They are broke at many fundamental levels. 1 being the only play in 1 phase of the game for start.


They are getting one of the first new codexes early next year along with csm, world eaters, emperor's children


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 02:26:25


Post by: Amishprn86


OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
They need a new book honestly. They are broke at many fundamental levels. 1 being the only play in 1 phase of the game for start.


They are getting one of the first new codexes early next year along with csm, world eaters, emperor's children


Yep.

I would rewrite the full book, that was my answer.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 02:27:03


Post by: Mud Turkey 13


Jump Shoot Jump, troop options for Crisis Suits, and assault transports are all things I would love to see.

I absolutely do not want melee suits. Melee goes totally against the T'au philosophy. If they want to add a melee presence for T'au it should be through auxiliaries.

The markerlight table really needs re-imagined, as well. If T'au only play in one phase they need to dominate that phase.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 02:34:23


Post by: Amishprn86


 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
Jump Shoot Jump, troop options for Crisis Suits, and assault transports are all things I would love to see.

I absolutely do not want melee suits. Melee goes totally against the T'au philosophy. If they want to add a melee presence for T'au it should be through auxiliaries.

The markerlight table really needs re-imagined, as well. If T'au only play in one phase they need to dominate that phase.


The problem is, you can not have an army dominate in the shooting phase only, the game doesn't work like that, you need movement, melee, objective holders, etc....

If you make shooting too strong its no fun, in 8th Tau was a negative play experience bc the only did 1 thing and made the opponent worst at doing it back to them which is not fun, there was no "trade" or "target priority" against Tau, just pick a spot and kill until all the stuff was gone and hope its enough not to get leaf blown off.

Tau has to change as a whole, they really should just be a Xeno's IG. Some movement tricks, good shooting, stable tanky units (IG needs to get fixed too in that regards) and some counter melee units with lots of screens and specialist shooting units (aka Suits). Kroot needs to be better rend and more attacks, more like slower, worst armor, but cheaper wyches as a counter melee, beachers should be able to take objectives easier, etc...

No more of this 1 phase bullcrap that everyone hates.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 02:34:56


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Here is my problem. Most editions have a 3-4 year shelf life before a new edition comes out in 40k. That being said, I pity the people praying for new books in 2022. That's half or more of the way through the life of this edition. Then 10th roles out and BLAM, we are right back to square 1.

Just give Tau 2 wound troops laser swords that wound infantry on 3+ and call it good. They haven't been allowed to play in over 3 years, and this is silly that we are still being sold this line of "buy Tau now, they are getting a new codex by December 2022!


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 04:18:11


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


 Amishprn86 wrote:

Tau has to change as a whole, they really should just be a Xeno's IG. Some movement tricks, good shooting, stable tanky units (IG needs to get fixed too in that regards) and some counter melee units with lots of screens and specialist shooting units (aka Suits). Kroot needs to be better rend and more attacks, more like slower, worst armor, but cheaper wyches as a counter melee, beachers should be able to take objectives easier, etc...

No more of this 1 phase bullcrap that everyone hates.


^^ I mean Tau literally can't kill Ghazghkull or a Nightbringer right now in less than what, 3-4 turns? They tear up your entire lineup by then.

And right, I think the 'goal' would ideally be to give them a fun range of options and builds that can compete in multiple phases of the game without being reduced to one route of list building.

I don't need them to be the best at melee by a long shot, it shouldn't be their specialty, but if we are making 3/4 of their lineup based on giant anime robots it would seem pretty silly not to include things that 90% of giant anime robots have (melee weapons). Most every other army in the game can kit out some of their elites for respectable melee.



[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 04:23:01


Post by: ZebioLizard2


OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:

Tau has to change as a whole, they really should just be a Xeno's IG. Some movement tricks, good shooting, stable tanky units (IG needs to get fixed too in that regards) and some counter melee units with lots of screens and specialist shooting units (aka Suits). Kroot needs to be better rend and more attacks, more like slower, worst armor, but cheaper wyches as a counter melee, beachers should be able to take objectives easier, etc...

No more of this 1 phase bullcrap that everyone hates.


^^ I mean Tau literally can't kill Ghazghkull or a Nightbringer right now in less than what, 3-4 turns? They tear up your entire lineup by then.


Are there Ork Lists even taking Ghazghkull right now?

My thoughts would be to finally make Carbines hopefully useful for their position to allow for them to have some more mobile firewarriors that can claim objectives better.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 05:01:01


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Are there Ork Lists even taking Ghazghkull right now?

My thoughts would be to finally make Carbines hopefully useful for their position to allow for them to have some more mobile firewarriors that can claim objectives better.



Well maybe more Necrons, but more to illustrate how silly it is we can't compete in other phases.

I like better carbines, I'm always just wondering how they are going to possibly overtune some of the shooting weapons without fixing some of the underlying weaknesses of the army. I think what we don't want is just OP shooting across the board? Think of all those tourney winning admech lists and the recent ork shenannigans and how nuts that stuff was.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 06:35:31


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


Just improve Kroot and maybe allow Carbines to be used as pistols in melee and Suits may fire their weapons in melee like vehicles with a -1. Maybe add some debuff from sniper drones and pathfinders to melee units.
In 7th Tau had some not-psychic powers as their specialist systems, maybe bring back some of these.

Basically it's cool that for once CC is actually pretty useful (hasn't been the case since what, 4th edition?) and the gunline armies can't just blast away. But I agree that they need a little help in return.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 06:48:09


Post by: Jarms48


Personally, I have a feeling that:

- All pulse weapons will be AP-1.
- All battlesuits and vehicles will be BS3+
- All infantry (except infantry characters) will be BS4+
- Kroot and Vespid will be cheaper or better.
- Pathfinders will have their markerlights made assault.
- Markerlight system will be drastically changed. Either simplified (easier to get benefits), or more dynamic (old counter system).
- Darksider can be taken by any Tau Sept.
- XV8 Bodyguards will get the bodyguard ability like Celestians.
- Regular XV8 suits will be troops.
- Drones will have their Saviour Protocols removed.
- Things like Kauyon and Mont’ka will be activated in the command phase, every battle round like Doctrina.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 12:28:57


Post by: Amishprn86


OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:

Tau has to change as a whole, they really should just be a Xeno's IG. Some movement tricks, good shooting, stable tanky units (IG needs to get fixed too in that regards) and some counter melee units with lots of screens and specialist shooting units (aka Suits). Kroot needs to be better rend and more attacks, more like slower, worst armor, but cheaper wyches as a counter melee, beachers should be able to take objectives easier, etc...

No more of this 1 phase bullcrap that everyone hates.


^^ I mean Tau literally can't kill Ghazghkull or a Nightbringer right now in less than what, 3-4 turns? They tear up your entire lineup by then.

And right, I think the 'goal' would ideally be to give them a fun range of options and builds that can compete in multiple phases of the game without being reduced to one route of list building.

I don't need them to be the best at melee by a long shot, it shouldn't be their specialty, but if we are making 3/4 of their lineup based on giant anime robots it would seem pretty silly not to include things that 90% of giant anime robots have (melee weapons). Most every other army in the game can kit out some of their elites for respectable melee.



Yeah its a problem bc the army fundamentally doesn't work, bc it was built like gak to play in 1 phase, hence my point about NO DOING NOT.

I also agree, why TF does big Gundam robots not have a melee option?! lol


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 12:46:38


Post by: H.B.M.C.


OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
+Crisis Suits could be troops, and able to be the core of your army if you want
What role would Firewarriors or Kroot play then?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 13:43:17


Post by: sanguine40k


I am expecting drones to be rolled back into units like pre-8th instead of being split off after deployment - fixes easy unit kills (currently only need to kill 2 drones to set off competitive streak, etc) and the worst excesses of Saviour protocols.

It would also effectively remove saviour protocols as a thing (except maybe as a stratagem for tactical drone squadrons).

I am hoping for being able to use guns in melee, either using BS-1 or WS.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 14:05:19


Post by: Vector Strike


After so many years, I've learned my lesson. No more hope until I see it with my own eyes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mud Turkey 13 wrote:Jump Shoot Jump, troop options for Crisis Suits, and assault transports are all things I would love to see.

I absolutely do not want melee suits. Melee goes totally against the T'au philosophy. If they want to add a melee presence for T'au it should be through auxiliaries.

The markerlight table really needs re-imagined, as well. If T'au only play in one phase they need to dominate that phase.


Good points.

Amishprn86 wrote:Tau has to change as a whole, they really should just be a Xeno's IG. Some movement tricks, good shooting, stable tanky units (IG needs to get fixed too in that regards) and some counter melee units with lots of screens and specialist shooting units (aka Suits). Kroot needs to be better rend and more attacks, more like slower, worst armor, but cheaper wyches as a counter melee, beachers should be able to take objectives easier, etc...

No more of this 1 phase bullcrap that everyone hates.


Tau should be Xenos AdMech, in my purview.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 15:37:50


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


I'm not as tuned into the meta as many of you but it seems like right now there is a codex push for more of a playstyle with carefully choosing overlapping auras and using special characters to overcharge a few units when the time is right to turn them into blenders. Look at the new Black Templar book where a few of the special characters and relics hypercharge a few things into absolute monsters. This sort of thing -could- be really cool with Tau? I dunno. I'm sure all the book decision have already been made.

The new rules/codexes for the other races lately seem to be much more interesting and dare I say reasonably balanced than the last few batches though, so I've got hope. Thousand Sons, Grey Knights, etc. I really like how the TS and GK look and play on the table right now, very theme appropriate and interesting imo. I want the same for Tau!


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 16:48:05


Post by: Aftersong


Awesome fix list that will never happen

1. Every command phase set the order in which you will complete the remianing phases. Allowing them their entire shooting phase before their movement phase. Blast things off objectives and then move onto them.

2. Railguns get damage increases based on size and ignore "can only take X wounds per phase rules"

3. Kroot can pay for mutations from the old kroot mercenaries list (+1 toughness, wings etc)

4. Can disembark from devilfish after moving

5. Crisis suit loadouts are chosen at the start of the game from reinforcement points and not at list creation.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/19 22:58:55


Post by: Arachnofiend


I know that if I were going to design an army around the concept of only having guns they'd mostly have pistols on fast mobile platforms. The problem is that Tau have multiple releases worth of Xenos Guard immobile backline shooting that still need to have rules of some kind.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 00:21:25


Post by: dewd11


 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

I absolutely do not want melee suits. Melee goes totally against the T'au philosophy. If they want to add a melee presence for T'au it should be through auxiliaries.


What would you think of them using their guns as melee? Like giving "Pulse rifle butt" a weapon profile? Or perhaps a rule that lets them treat close combat as another shooting phase, a-la Gun Fu


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 00:37:13


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Honestly want to start a poll to see how many people here think GW is going to radically alter 9th to the benefit of it's worst selling faction.

Some of the ideas here have merit, and some are....well, bad.

They are not giving Tau the ability to alter phases, or shoot in melee with their rifles, or even giving them a half way decent melee ability. They are a poorly designed faction that is suffering from Edition cancer. You can't make them viable in 9th. Just like Knights and other super shooting focused armies.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 01:22:56


Post by: Valkyrie


General Ideas
Pulse becomes Ap-1
Plasma D2
Pulse Carbines become Assault 3
Hammerhead Railguns Heavy D3, Damage D3+3
Seeker Missiles brought up to Hunter-Killer stats
Destroyer Missiles become HKs with D6

Detailed Ideas
Markerlights return to the "counter system" used previously.
All Battlesuits become BS3+ default
Saviour Protocols needs nerfing/readjusting
ATS becomes "count as 1 extra Markerlight"
Kroot gain +1A


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 01:23:22


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Honestly want to start a poll to see how many people here think GW is going to radically alter 9th to the benefit of it's worst selling faction.


How do we know Tau are the worst-selling faction? I thought they moved plenty of models? It's not really germane to the topic of -how- they should be fixed, though

How would you make their current lineup better without altering overall 9th?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 01:36:12


Post by: Arcanis161


What if they gave all Kroot units scout, and maybe reduced their points by a bit or improved their melee by a tiny amount too?

EDIT: D'oh, they have scout. Take it from someone who doesn't play against them often.

So....

Add 1 AP to the melee weapon and 1 Attack per model. Where does that get them?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 02:31:30


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Any faction that is not able to melee in death are well....suffering like a melee army vs tau in 7th. The pendulum has swung the other way, and it hurts. I just don't see GW deciding in the middle of an edition to radically re-design how one faction plays the game.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 02:47:55


Post by: Voss


I just don't see GW deciding in the middle of an edition to radically re-design how one faction plays the game.

Its more than that. GW has a thing about a factions core identity and (assuming non-Space Marines) 'uniqueness.' It would take a HUGE upheaval in the studio for them to change such a big part of the core identity of an army.

I don't necessarily agree that they shouldn't, but I don't see them making this kind of jump. Ever


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 03:46:54


Post by: bullyboy


Absolutely give Tau melee options, but it should be part of their weapon systems. We know they are not getting new models outside of Dark Strider, so new melee Tau ain't happening. But there is no reason that you couldn't be able to upgrade dual fusion guns to be Fusion Blades instead of it being purely a relic. Crisis suits should be decent in melee, not blenders, just decent. If we're advancing the timeline, let them be able to handle things at close range because of necessity.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 10:17:15


Post by: tneva82


 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
Jump Shoot Jump, troop options for Crisis Suits, and assault transports are all things I would love to see.

I absolutely do not want melee suits. Melee goes totally against the T'au philosophy. If they want to add a melee presence for T'au it should be through auxiliaries.

The markerlight table really needs re-imagined, as well. If T'au only play in one phase they need to dominate that phase.


Have yet to see game where move shoot move doesn't a) break game b) lead to npe.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 11:43:44


Post by: Giantwalkingchair


Speaking as a non-tau player.
I would really like to see a greater focus on auxiliaries. I get that some people just like battlesuits, and that's cool, but I really want to see more of a diverse tau army that. The tau weaknesses should be covered by their auxiliaries strengths and vice versa in a meaningful way.
Ive seen nothing but drones, battlesuits and firewarriors for years.
Where's the other species indoctrinated/coerced/sucked-in by "the greater good"?

By all means, let the mech heads have their suits, but give the people who want to build a dark federation a horse in the race too.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 13:05:24


Post by: Tyel


It would probably be better to normalise the faction - give it assault abilities, maybe even psychic powers etc.

But GW almost certainly won't - especially if there isn't a new range of models to sell. I'd therefore expect there just to be very efficient shooting, and, much like Ad Mech (until just now) - you just delete opponent's armies and win.

So
1. A few points reductions.
2. Stick a point of AP on.. basically everything.
3. Let you shoot markerlights along with any other weapons and maybe cut the table down from 5 ranks to say 3.

And that would basically be that. Boring, but if cheap enough, potentially top tier.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 13:15:51


Post by: Ordana


The biggest thing hurting Tau in 9th is an inability to play the midfield and hold objectives, which is entirely what 9th revolves around.

JSJ was nice and could be used more aggressively when the game wasn't as deadly as it is now but its not going to help you hold objectives out in the open.

If I were to give a single wish that is pure wishlisting it would be a 'riot suppression' kind of unit. Short range gun and shield to make them survivable with the option of a few flamers for charge deterant.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 13:35:56


Post by: Grimtuff


Speaking as someone who is an outside observer (last time my Tau got a proper go around was in 5th). My main observation, certainly since 8th is that Tau have certainly lost their identity in some way.

What do I mean by this? Well, you can even see it in posts in this very thread, where they talk about Tau only participating in a single phase in the game. That's the problem. Tau used to be the mobile gunline army- they weren't stand and shoot (that was IG's main gimmick), they were "scoot and shoot", with things like Fish of Fury and mass Crisis suits being quite popular. Even though they were still a "shooty" army they still participated in all phases of the game due to JSJ etc.

Since 8th, Practically every game involving Tau I have seen went the same way, they'd just sit there and essentially be Xeno IG, as there was no reason for them to move. So the game would always end one of two ways- the Tau having finished their exercise in dice rolling eventually win or their lines are hit and they lose. End of game GG.
Previous edition's Tau were never like that, with things like JSJ and other elements encouraging aggressive play and a cat and mouse game with your opponent.

How will they get this back? Well, that is an entirely different question that I'm not sure I can answer but if they are so hellbent on keeping Tau more or less the same (and things like the current terrain rules really won't help even if they add JSJ back in...) then they need to lean more into the auxiliaries- You've got loads of the Battlesuits. Good. Now stop for a while GW and focus on the other part of what makes the Tau unique; that being the mass republic of loads and loads of minor xenos species under their banners.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 14:23:30


Post by: panzerfront14


Personally, as a Non Tau player if I wanted to give Tau melee capacity I would got about it in two different ways. Give them a small cadre of Alien Auxiliaries to handle that a new kroot/vespid unit. The presence of Aux in Tau lately is honestly sad given the lore. Vespid as a quick, moderately durable melee unit would be amazing.

Then I would have the Tau pull out, say old XV-24 stealth suits, and change there armor to be the same as a Crisis Suits, give each a flamer and some sort of melee weapon. Perhaps similar to that old fusion blade I recall from 7th edition. Allow them to flame in melee, give them a name that emphasizes their sacrifice in being the unit that stands between the rest of the group and the enemy. Fluff it as the Empire being too hard pressed to not repurpose old suits.

Stat it as a M6 WS4+ BS4+ Str 4, T3 W2 A2 LD8 SV 3+.
Wargear being a Tau Flamer, and a melee weapon that lets them hit hard.
Put 5 in a squad, make them Troops but with the rule that you can't include more of these squads then you have Fire Warrior teams, similar to the Sisters Novate rule.

Second, Tau if they continue to be bad in melee should be damn slippery. If you catch them then they should die against a unit that should be able to reasonably able to kill them. But those move away mechanics that Admech has and their punishing overwatch should make it difficult to do.

Write up a strategem for say 2cp that lets Crisis suits make a movement when a charge is declared against them. Call it Evasive Tactics.

I think these would give them some new, serious objective squaters


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 17:04:31


Post by: Vankraken


 Grimtuff wrote:
Speaking as someone who is an outside observer (last time my Tau got a proper go around was in 5th). My main observation, certainly since 8th is that Tau have certainly lost their identity in some way.

What do I mean by this? Well, you can even see it in posts in this very thread, where they talk about Tau only participating in a single phase in the game. That's the problem. Tau used to be the mobile gunline army- they weren't stand and shoot (that was IG's main gimmick), they were "scoot and shoot", with things like Fish of Fury and mass Crisis suits being quite popular. Even though they were still a "shooty" army they still participated in all phases of the game due to JSJ etc.

Since 8th, Practically every game involving Tau I have seen went the same way, they'd just sit there and essentially be Xeno IG, as there was no reason for them to move. So the game would always end one of two ways- the Tau having finished their exercise in dice rolling eventually win or their lines are hit and they lose. End of game GG.
Previous edition's Tau were never like that, with things like JSJ and other elements encouraging aggressive play and a cat and mouse game with your opponent.

How will they get this back? Well, that is an entirely different question that I'm not sure I can answer but if they are so hellbent on keeping Tau more or less the same (and things like the current terrain rules really won't help even if they add JSJ back in...) then they need to lean more into the auxiliaries- You've got loads of the Battlesuits. Good. Now stop for a while GW and focus on the other part of what makes the Tau unique; that being the mass republic of loads and loads of minor xenos species under their banners.


I would agree with this based on what I saw trying to make Tau work in 8th. They lack field presence outside of their optimal ranged killzone (what I call the area between getting charged and being able to bring their full firepower to bear) which makes it tend to boil down to "can the Tau shoot the enemy off the table enough to move into the middle". The lack of melee makes them fall apart when charged and entirely dependent on their ability to kill with shooting. GW might be overly cautious of making them too deadly at range (which goes back to their 6/7th edition pub stomper status) but they have nothing else to rely on especially after the 8th edition reboot of the ruleset which gutted all their utility.

I also think that the game is too deadly for a JSJ style of play to really work as they either mow down stuff without being able to be caught or struggle to kill stuff fast enough before getting killed by return fire themselves (its a very thin hole to thread to get it to balance and is way too reliant on the balance of every other codex to really be sustainable). Tau firepower (and lack of everything else) creates a very heavy "win more" feedback loop as bringing ranged attacks to the enemy is by far the easiest thing in the game and the removal of more complex positioning and to an extent cover mechanics tends to just allow gunlines to be the optimal play. Only reason Tau would have a reason to move out of a gunline is to either take objectives (which is a good thing but the lack of utility in the game rules hurts the Tau trying to not castle/gunline) or if their firepower was so lacking that they can't withstand the enemy advance into the firing line (which is basically GG for the Tau given the current state of 40k).

I just don't see a good solution for the Tau that doesn't result in either the Tau being weak or being too strong and thus punishing to all but the most competitive lists. The Tau absolutely need more utility to allow them to do something besides "kill all the things" but the barebones core rules nature of 8/9th makes having utility mechanics more difficult as you have to make everything basically more bespoke rules which no other codex can effectively interact with due to those rules/mechanics being unique to that codex (unless its simple modifications to hit, wound, pen, move, or morale). Shoving utility into stratagems feels inflexible and you end up with more "a Tau army has 1 EMP grenade which has to be delivered by the logistical drone to a single firewarrior each turn" nonsense.

Expanding their auxiliary lineup is probably the simplest option which could allow for some melee units (that hopefully aren't hot garbage like kroot tend to be in melee) but I think it can end up making the Tau rely on certain units too much and sorta forcing the Tau to play like other factions instead of the Tau having their own style of combat. But overall I think the overly simple nature of the core rules of current 40k shows its cracks the most when dealing with an army like the Tau which thematically skews heavily towards ranged combat at the expense of everything else.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 18:42:04


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


Tau were already a gunline army in 6th. Only the Riptide and Stormsurge changed that a little because they abused the hilarious Monster rules of the time and kicked ass in melee due to auto-DS 2 for monsters and I think stomp attacks for the Stormsurge.
Yes, there were always creative Tau players that used infiltrating Ghosts and Kroot and deep striking suits and breachers in devilfishes and you can still do all of that but it always was playing Tau on hard mode when you could just simply stand there and shoot everything.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 19:49:47


Post by: dan2026


Crisis suits moved to troops.
BS 3+ on suits as standard.
Suits allowed limited movement in the fight phase.
Kroot gain infiltrate and some sort of cover save.
Damage buffs on a lot of the weapons.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/20 20:22:40


Post by: blood reaper


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
+Crisis Suits could be troops, and able to be the core of your army if you want
What role would Firewarriors or Kroot play then?


Occupying the vital front known as "the shelf".


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/21 05:52:42


Post by: Mud Turkey 13


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
+Crisis Suits could be troops, and able to be the core of your army if you want
What role would Firewarriors or Kroot play then?


For clarification, I would not like to see them as just straight troops. I would want there to be a way to give them Objective Secured. Maybe similar to how you can give Leman Russes ObSec if they are in a Spearhead Detachment you could give Crisis Suits ObSec in a Vanguard Detachment. It would at least cost you command points if you wanted the detachment to get them ObSec.

Jump, Shoot, Jump is something that I think really needs to come back for T'au. It is very thematic for them. Again, it doesn't need to be a universal rule for battlesuits or anything. Perhaps a stratagem you can use on battlesuits with the fly keyword.

If T'au get a boost to melee it should be through auxiliaries. It would be awesome to see Kroot get a boost to help with that issue because allowing T'au to shoot into combat would most likely be too strong. I think if they wanted to do that it would have to be a thing where even if the T'au charge they are always selected last in the fight phase. You could then choose each fight phase to allow them to follow the normal fight phase activation order and use their melee profile, or you could choose to shoot into combat that phase but they would only activate after their opponent activated all of their units in combat. There is already a stratagem which allows you to shoot pulse weapons as pistols, so there is precedent for it.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/21 07:23:50


Post by: Zelse


 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
For clarification, I would not like to see them as just straight troops. I would want there to be a way to give them Objective Secured. Maybe similar to how you can give Leman Russes ObSec if they are in a Spearhead Detachment you could give Crisis Suits ObSec in a Vanguard Detachment. It would at least cost you command points if you wanted the detachment to get them ObSec.


Thousand Sons gives their bEsPoKe Terminators ObSec baseline, no hoops.

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

Jump, Shoot, Jump is something that I think really needs to come back for T'au. It is very thematic for them. Again, it doesn't need to be a universal rule for battlesuits or anything. Perhaps a stratagem you can use on battlesuits with the fly keyword.


Craftworlds got Fire and Fade, so there's precedent for that too.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/21 07:52:17


Post by: Stormonu


Haven't played 9th, but I'd like to see breachers/carbines/pulse pistols given the ability (perhaps as a stratagem) to make the units being charged costly for the attacker, if not a deterrent.

JSJ needs to come back to crisis suits & stealth suits, and it wouldn't be bad if "pop-up" attacks were made available for Hammerheads (and of course, eldar falcons).

I'd rather Tau melee abilities weren't buffed, but it would be nice if Kroot could fill that ability, becoming a defensive wall against being charged or arriving as a flanking charge to get Tau out of a close combat mess.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/21 11:45:02


Post by: Commissar Yarrork


 Aftersong wrote:
2. Railguns get damage increases based on size and ignore "can only take X wounds per phase rules"

Casually kill Ghaz turn one so he can't call a Waaagh...


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/21 12:04:42


Post by: Valkyrie


Commissar Yarrork wrote:
 Aftersong wrote:
2. Railguns get damage increases based on size and ignore "can only take X wounds per phase rules"

Casually kill Ghaz turn one so he can't call a Waaagh...


Yeah that's a pretty bad idea.

If we're talking about new units, I had in mind something like a faster Pathfinder variant. In terms of aesthetics and movement, imagine the Pilots from Titanfall:

Seeker Team
M12" BS4+ WS5+ S3 T3 W1 A1 Ld* Sv5+

*Ld is whatever the default Pathfinder one is.

Wargear
Pulse Carbine
Low Intensity Markerlight
Seeker Thrusters

A model with Seeker Thrusters ignores any movement penalties or vertical terrain distances.

Low Intensity Markerlight: Range 18", S- Ap-, Assault 1


So you have a unit which is much faster compared to the Pathfinders especially as their Markerlights are now Assault, but you trade 50% of the MLs range as well as any upgrades or Drones.





[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/21 15:34:53


Post by: RaptorusRex


I was surprised to discover from a Tau player friend that Stealth Suits aren't troops.

Maybe start there?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/21 16:05:19


Post by: Voss


Why in the world would stealth suits be troops?

Specialized infiltrators don't make sense for a backbone of a tau army.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/21 16:46:21


Post by: Kanluwen


Stealth Suits make as much sense as Crisis Suits being troops, if we're going to be fair.

To clarify a bit more for those in the back:
Lorewise, we've had some Tau formations over the years that emphasize the Crisis Suits being held in reserve to drop on Stealth Suit marked positions. There was a whole concept introduced alongside of the Ghostkeel of Stealth Suits effectively being the 'troops' for all-optical camo Tau forces.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/21 17:17:28


Post by: Zelse


CWE do exist and Tau have an entire military doctrine revolving around ambushes. They absolutely could make sense.

I don't agree with them being troops, but we have a very bloated Elite slot. I'd rather Riptide and variants hit the LoW slot instead.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/21 23:10:35


Post by: Voss


Exiling units to the LoW slot just seems mean.
This about making the army better for 9th, isn't it?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/21 23:22:30


Post by: JNAProductions


Voss wrote:
Why in the world would stealth suits be troops?

Specialized infiltrators don't make sense for a backbone of a tau army.
Infiltrators are SM Troops.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/21 23:30:33


Post by: Voss


 JNAProductions wrote:
Voss wrote:
Why in the world would stealth suits be troops?

Specialized infiltrators don't make sense for a backbone of a tau army.
Infiltrators are SM Troops.


That is one of random words beginning with 'I' that the Primaris name generator kicked up for a unit, yes.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/22 00:33:07


Post by: Tyel


I think you could make an argument for Crisis Suits, Stealth Suits and Pathfinders all being troops. But all this does is crowd the troops spot and doesn't in my view at least make Tau any more interesting.

I mean if Fire Warriors are so bad you hate bringing say 15 along then I think the codex would have significant problems from the get go.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/22 00:50:34


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Make the Manta Troops.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/23 01:18:10


Post by: ChiliPowderKeg


I want Rinyon Encirclements/"""Ninja""" Tau in some shape or form back

9/12 inch anti-deployment bubbles really do a good job at keeping anything critical out of reserves so long as my opponents know something is waiting there before deployment starts.

Let Kroot naturally ignore this utter hinderance so they can actually play aggressively when deploying from reserves or out of regular deployment on the board so they don't get hard-countered by some dink-headed forward deployed unit with a 12 inch gizmo bubble before they get a chance to actually do anything.

Also try tweaking the Guardian drone from a +5 invuln to ignores AP -1/-2 since that's a new concept that's been making the rounds for improving infantry survivability.

Also hoping the Hammerhead Railgun has an improved damage profile against Vehicle keyword units so it can return to being the premiere anti-tank gun it once was and so it doesn't feel like it needs to be squadroned to be effective.

Maybe try doing something with the carbine this time, like making it one shot 2 damage since it remembers that it has a grenade launcher on it.

Crisis suits are in an okay spot right now, only thing in need of changing is the support systems that aren't the ATS and shield generator (Maybe Target Lock too if they turn crisis suits back into a unit that loses BS with certain weapons if they move/advance again)


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/23 04:07:06


Post by: carldooley


Give Tau suits the ability to suicide in combat, something like each can detonate their cores to deal d3 mortal wounds to each unit within 6".

Get RID if the silly 1 commander per detachment rule.

Allow FSE to field crisis suits as troops again, maybe [[hmm]] to field stealths as troops, or make it an option in ala the custom sept list.

When it comes to advancing the story, what happens when the holo projector simulating Aun'va fails during a Empire-wide announcemnt?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/23 05:07:51


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Oh yeah. The game sure does need more Mortal Wounds and added lethality.

And I'm just having trouble getting past the "Make Crisis Suits troops!" side of things, because if that were the case I just cannot see a future where Tau players take Firewarriors (let alone Kroot) for reasons beyond "I just like them!".

 carldooley wrote:
Get RID if the silly 1 commander per detachment rule.
That's spreading to every army because it doesn't make sense for Marine formations to be led by 2 Captains, Chaos to have 2 Lords, and so on. I'm sure Guard will be next with only 1 Tank Commander per formation. I doubt Tau would escape this.



[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/23 07:15:42


Post by: Spoletta


Suits as troops solves none of the problems of the faction.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/23 07:51:14


Post by: Nibbler


Make the Commander a single datasheet and then give it options to equip the different suits.
--> Rule of 3 takes effect and the number of overall commanders would be regulated...

If your warlord utilizes a XV8* suit --> crisis suits gain ObSec
Warlord wears a stealth suit (similar to shadowsuns thingy) --> stealth suits gain ObSec

Make Fusionblades (or something similar) a general weapon choice. Enhance our Fusionblasters with the new melta rules.

Mont'ka and kayon need an overhaul, as well as the ethereals and the fireblades support abilities.
After that, our firewarriors should be ok to fullfill the basic infantry role...

That's my take (not completely thought through... just a quick spit)


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/23 10:49:38


Post by: Aash


I think tau auxiliaries need to be expanded, adding in some psykers and some good melee options, but that seems unlikely to happen this edition.

Assuming tau aren’t getting any new units, a mechanic similar to GSC brood brothers could allow for some representation of auxiliaries and a way to include some melee and psychic options for the army, but I think that’s also unlikely.

I wouldn’t be in favour of making battle suits Troops and I would keep the 1 commander per detachment limit.

This is what I’d look at changing:

Kroot - melee weapons should be -1 AP, and maybe there base Attacks should be 2. Also the scout move should be replaced with an infiltrate ability. I’d consider making the hidden hunters strategem part of their special rules instead of a strategem ( +1 save and -1 to hit from ranged weapons when in cover)

Crisis Suits - I’d bring back jump-shoot-jump for crisis suits, but the second move would have restrictions similar to pile in and consolidation moves but rather than having to move towards the closest enemy you can choose instead to move towards the closest objective. This will help with tau advancing onto objectives which they struggle with at present.

Devilfish - should get the same assault vehicle rule as the space marine impulsor- can disembark after the vehicle makes a normal move, but the disembarked unit can’t charge that turn.

Photon grenades - these should give a benefit in melee, the unit counts as in Heavy cover (+1 save if they don’t charge)

Markerlights - I’d simplify this. Instead of firing any other weapons a model armed with a Markerlight can fire the markerlight. A hit means the rest of the squad get +1 BS if they are shooting the same target. In addition other units with the same <sept> keyword can draw LOS to the target even if they otherwise couldn’t see it. Benefits of cover like save modifiers and BS modifiers would still apply.

Drones - I’d consider getting rid of drones as units and only have them attached to other units. In this case, no saviour protocols are needed, you just apply wounds to the drones in the unit before taking wounds on the other models using the normal wound allocation rules.

Master of War - Kauyon or Mont’ka would be declared in the Command Phase every turn. And both would be army wide and apply to all units that share the <sept> keyword with the commander declaring Kauyon or Mont’ka
Kauyon - if <sept> units don’t move they count as in Defensible terrain - can choose to either Hold steady (overwatch on 5+) or Set to defend (+1 on hit rolls in melee).
Mont’ka - for <sept> units rapid fire weapons count as Assault weapons this turn.

I’m not sure what to do with Vespids, and sept subfaction bonuses and ethereal abilities would need adjustments, and points/power level changes as appropriate, but that’s my initial thoughts for the direction I’d push for Tau.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/23 11:46:05


Post by: Ordana


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oh yeah. The game sure does need more Mortal Wounds and added lethality.

And I'm just having trouble getting past the "Make Crisis Suits troops!" side of things, because if that were the case I just cannot see a future where Tau players take Firewarriors (let alone Kroot) for reasons beyond "I just like them!".
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/23 17:53:14


Post by: sanguine40k


 Ordana wrote:
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.


One way to make firewarriors possibly more useful would be something like: Dug in - 'While this unit is within 3" of an objective add 1 to saving throws made for this unit'.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/23 18:04:02


Post by: Valkyrie


sanguine40k wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.


One way to make firewarriors possibly more useful would be something like: Dug in - 'While this unit is within 3" of an objective add 1 to saving throws made for this unit'.


Or "While every model in this unit is in base to base contact with at least 2 other models, +1 to hit rolls".


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/23 18:59:06


Post by: Ordana


 Valkyrie wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.


One way to make firewarriors possibly more useful would be something like: Dug in - 'While this unit is within 3" of an objective add 1 to saving throws made for this unit'.


Or "While every model in this unit is in base to base contact with at least 2 other models, +1 to hit rolls".
you could give them BS 2+ and people would probably still not bring them. a single str 5 shot is useless in 9th.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/23 19:07:17


Post by: Kanluwen


sanguine40k wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.


One way to make firewarriors possibly more useful would be something like: Dug in - 'While this unit is within 3" of an objective add 1 to saving throws made for this unit'.

They already are sitting at a fairly high save for a basic trooper...and this feels more like a Guard rule than a Tau rule.

Better option would be to, y'know, utilize the Guardian and Shield Drones better.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/23 23:14:06


Post by: ChiliPowderKeg


 Kanluwen wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.


One way to make firewarriors possibly more useful would be something like: Dug in - 'While this unit is within 3" of an objective add 1 to saving throws made for this unit'.

They already are sitting at a fairly high save for a basic trooper...and this feels more like a Guard rule than a Tau rule.

Better option would be to, y'know, utilize the Guardian and Shield Drones better.


Probably have Guardian Drones do one of those "ignore AP -1/-2" benefits for their firewarriors instead of a +5 invuln field so they can use their 4+ armor save somewhat more often.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/24 01:25:33


Post by: sanguine40k


 Kanluwen wrote:
sanguine40k wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.


One way to make firewarriors possibly more useful would be something like: Dug in - 'While this unit is within 3" of an objective add 1 to saving throws made for this unit'.

They already are sitting at a fairly high save for a basic trooper...and this feels more like a Guard rule than a Tau rule.

Better option would be to, y'know, utilize the Guardian and Shield Drones better.


It's more to reward playing the primary.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/24 09:44:54


Post by: kurhanik


Add more auxiliaries for one. Even going the lazy route of a gue'vasa upgrade sprue for Cadians, like the Genestealer Cult one, and letting someone take a few basic Guardsmen units as non-core auxiliary units. Make Kroot worth taking, do something with Vespids (had to look up their data sheet to see what they even do, and at best case it looks like a discount scion, trading a point in ballistic skill for a better main weapon, faster move speed, and a point of toughness?). Then bring in another auxiliary race or two, Tarellians, Demiurg, the psyker ones, etc, and give each a clear role in the army.

Gue'vasa would fill the role of cheap chaff essentially with a basic Guardsman profile and maybe access to Pulse Rifles as a special weapon for the squad.

Give Kroot slightly better movement and make them a halfway decent bully unit. Not capable of taking on true heavy hitter close combat units, but useful in pressing units not specialized in the role or as a screen. Say increase their base movement by 1", change their rifles to Assault 2, add one extra attack, and allow them to charge after advancing. Lets them zoom across the board, fire their weapons, and charge fairly effectively against other low tier units.

Give the Kroot Shaper something to do - maybe it unlocks upgrades to Kroot units as they you know, shaped their tribe. Maybe with a Shaper in the army, you can give Kroot extra abilities, like ap -1 for 1 point per model, or +1 strength, or +1 attack, or maybe they have sharp eyes, so the range on their rifles is now 30". Right now all a Shaper does is boost morale of nearby Kroot by 1, give a reroll 1s aura, and grant a situational morale immunity on the off chance it actually kills something. Let them be a key to unlock some fun abilities with Kroot units and some interesting things might come up, even paying a few extra points per model (plus the cost of the Shaper) you could then customize your Kroot with several abilities.

Vespids I have no clue with. I'd say lean in to the movement aspect but honestly it just feels like they pay a bit much for what they bring and I'm not fully sure what to give them that doesn't step on other units toes or turn them into something completely different.

Other auxiliary ideas would be armored units, or units capable of melee beyond a bullying role. I would say don't lean full melee, make it a balanced unit that can work at both range and in melee instead of a specialist. Either mark the durability with a good save, or a good toughness or multiple wounds (say pick 2 of the 3). Something to widen the pool a bit and bring the whole coalition bit back to the forefront, that is the most interesting part about the Tau after all. Heck, with the more than one wound genie out of the bottle, it would be interesting to see what a multi-wound T3 unit would look like - a species just as easy to injure as a regular human, but harder to put down.

Maybe let Breachers fire their weapons in close combat? They are a unit based around wanting to get up close and personal, are useless compared to a strike team at more than 15", worse than a strike team from 10-15", and finally stronger than them below that, but even then, they don't shine until they are within 5" of a foe. On a unit with no melee capability beyond sacrificing one of its attacks for a grenade that makes the enemy worse at mulching them. They don't need to be melee beasts, but they should be able to at least hold their own, or at bare minimum fight on par with their points in guardsmen. Even just a note on their guns that say "count as 'Pistol 1' when in close combat" would give them something. Honestly I don't think it would break much if they got 2 shots in close combat, its not like they will be some broken melee beast. It just feels like a unit that has no real role, as anything that survives their best will just immediately destroy them, and regular Fire Warriors are less risky with their 30" range and better gun in all but the closest of encounters.



[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/24 11:04:39


Post by: Ordana


Pretty sure there is already a 1CP strat to make all 3 pulse guns (Carbine, rifle and blaster) Pistol 2 in combat.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/24 13:38:42


Post by: G00fySmiley


honestly I know people would hate it, but the tau are supposed to be a fire and fade army. they should be able to move, shoot, move. basically all infantry units able to move either their movement speed or 1d6 in the assault phase if not charging. not move for a cp, an armywide rule I like the d6 better since it would mean more of a gamble to say move a large unit out to get all shots when you might not get back out of lien of sight.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/24 14:05:28


Post by: carldooley


 G00fySmiley wrote:
honestly I know people would hate it, but the tau are supposed to be a fire and fade army. they should be able to move, shoot, move. basically all infantry units able to move either their movement speed or 1d6 in the assault phase if not charging. not move for a cp, an armywide rule I like the d6 better since it would mean more of a gamble to say move a large unit out to get all shots when you might not get back out of lien of sight.


which is precisely what JSJ used to do. No guaranteed movement like the Vectored Retro Thrusters Relic, and on a body that was just fragile enough to get wiped if it ended up in the open.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 03:23:10


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


Minor stat adjustments to Tau weapon damage will bring them up to 9th standards, I'm not too worried about that and expect those changes. What we don't really need is more ways to blast things off of objectives from across the map, which we already have in spades.

The main hole we have is fighting mid board, taking objectives, and then holding onto them. We need more durability and more ways to deter assaults into troops holding an objective. More specialist drones that reduce assault ranges or attacks, more troop options that can screen or punish assaults. The Tau roster should be encouraging us to slug it out in multiple areas of the board more and play the 9th mission.

I'm imagining retooled assault transports with breachers that can actually help clear a point after aggressive movement, and then some new tools to hold and not immediately die.

Nearly all of the best armies right now are throwing out tons of pressure in multiple phases of the game all over the map. Aggressive movement, tons of damage, making your opponent have to make tough choices on what to kill and what to contest and some hard calls on who to ignore. People playing against us right now rarely have to make hard decisions on what units to try to kill.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 08:39:56


Post by: Aenar


1) First thing necessary to avoid castles: fall back and shoot as a basic rule (for at least FLY units).
Not as a strat or special ability, but as an army rule.
Tau can only move, shoot and roll saves. If you take away the possibility of dealing damage by simply tagging them in melee with a cheap unit, the whole army stops working.
Tables are smaller, turn 1 charges are allowed and basically every army has a way to tag you in melee turn one if they want to. This creates a situation where the Tau player wants to avoid that, so he castles up with layers of screens.
Result: you either make it through and tag him (win the game but it is a miserable experience) or you don't and get shot off the board (lose the game and it is a miserable experience).
If they were able to fall back and shoot freely, the Tau player wouldn't be so worried of being tagged in melee and the game becomes more interactive. You charge, deal damage, Tau disengage, deal damage, and so on.

2) Second thing necessary to play the objective game in 9th: a way to move after shooting that doensn't involve charging into melee.
I would simply bring back JSJ as a basic ability for JETPACK units, for example. You shoot and then in the charge phase you can move i) half your M", ii) your M", iii) a fixed distance, iv) a random distance or whatever.
To balance it I would require the unit not to have used the fall back and shoot rule this turn. So you either fall back and shoot or move after shooting.

These first two point would be the bare minimum, necessary to let Tau be an army that works in 9th ed.
Then you can change markerlights (right now they are basically useless), weapon profiles, datasheets, strats, the free overwatch, drones protocols, etc.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 12:49:26


Post by: Ordana


 Aenar wrote:
1) First thing necessary to avoid castles: fall back and shoot as a basic rule (for at least FLY units).
Not as a strat or special ability, but as an army rule.
Tau can only move, shoot and roll saves. If you take away the possibility of dealing damage by simply tagging them in melee with a cheap unit, the whole army stops working.
Tables are smaller, turn 1 charges are allowed and basically every army has a way to tag you in melee turn one if they want to. This creates a situation where the Tau player wants to avoid that, so he castles up with layers of screens.
Result: you either make it through and tag him (win the game but it is a miserable experience) or you don't and get shot off the board (lose the game and it is a miserable experience).
If they were able to fall back and shoot freely, the Tau player wouldn't be so worried of being tagged in melee and the game becomes more interactive. You charge, deal damage, Tau disengage, deal damage, and so on.

2) Second thing necessary to play the objective game in 9th: a way to move after shooting that doensn't involve charging into melee.
I would simply bring back JSJ as a basic ability for JETPACK units, for example. You shoot and then in the charge phase you can move i) half your M", ii) your M", iii) a fixed distance, iv) a random distance or whatever.
To balance it I would require the unit not to have used the fall back and shoot rule this turn. So you either fall back and shoot or move after shooting.

These first two point would be the bare minimum, necessary to let Tau be an army that works in 9th ed.
Then you can change markerlights (right now they are basically useless), weapon profiles, datasheets, strats, the free overwatch, drones protocols, etc.
Getting on to the objective isn't that much of an issue. imo.
Its surviving when you get there.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 12:56:35


Post by: Dysartes


Step 1: Move all TAU models/units to Legends
Step 2: Move all Vespid units to Legends
Step 3: Reintroduce the likes of the Kroot Vultures back into the game
Step 4: Rebrand book as Codex: Kroot Mercenaries
Step 5: Profit!


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 13:08:03


Post by: Kanluwen


Tau changes...

The Fire Warriors of the T’au Empire prefer to engage their enemies from a safe distance, cutting them down from afar with withering salvoes of pulse weapon fire. Their weakness has always been getting caught in melee, so the further away they can be from their targets, the better off they’ll be.

You’ll no doubt be pleased to learn, then, that the range of both of their primary weapons has been increased. The pulse carbine, for example, now has a very healthy reach of 24″ (a handy boost for the Pathfinders you picked up in Kill Team: Chalnath, too!).

With an enormous 36″ range, Fire Warriors armed with pulse rifles will be able to outrange the Troops units of almost any other faction, giving them a crucial early advantage as well as the ability to Rapid Fire up to 18″. What’s more, they now come with a handy pip of AP for some added punch.



Well, there's something at least.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 13:15:35


Post by: Valkyrie


Ooh wasn't expecting Ap-1 on the Rifles. Nice to see the updates, but still a little let down that the Carbines aren't Assault 3, at the moment I think they're still not as good as the Rifle.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 14:49:28


Post by: bullyboy


Not sure how this improves the way they'll operate in 9th edition. Increased range isn't quite what Tau need on a shrinking game board.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 15:24:33


Post by: Tyel


So they've managed to make the gap between Carbines and Rifles even greater?

....


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 16:35:49


Post by: Esmer


If they continue to be priced the same I don't much see the use for Carbines.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 16:40:17


Post by: JNAProductions


 Esmer wrote:
If they continue to be priced the same I don't much see the use for Carbines.
Carbines used to have pinning.

They could do something with that-say, for each wound inflicted (before saves) reduce the target's movement by 1", to a max of 3" or something.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 16:42:34


Post by: Afrodactyl


I'm a non-Tau player, so please correct me if I suggest stuff thats already a thing or is just plain dumb.

- Kroot generally get a melee buff, and cover bonuses similar to Ork Kommandos.

- Give the non-auxiliary units something to do in most phases. Some form of JSJ for suits and tanks, Carbines to count as pistols in melee, etc.

- Other auxiliaries to cover the rest of the gaps. Maybe some floating psyker alien brains that hand out defensive buffs and deny enemy powers or something.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 17:17:04


Post by: ChiliPowderKeg


Bit of an odd choice with the carbine, if they remain the same cost as the rifle I don't really think that'll bring life back into them other than being the pathfinder desperation option. Hopefully they get a stratagem or some situational targeting stat tweak to give them 1 shot at D2 or some revised version of pinning for them remembering to use the grenade launcher.


edit: I'm an idiot that forgot about pulse accelerator drones that makes this a 2 shot version of the old pulse rifle... That's still a pretty clunky way of using them though


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 17:34:19


Post by: Gadzilla666


 bullyboy wrote:
Not sure how this improves the way they'll operate in 9th edition. Increased range isn't quite what Tau need on a shrinking game board.

It doesn't address the faction's underlying problems in 9th, but it does address a common complaint about Tau vs Primaris weapons. Now the basic Tau infantry rifle has the same AP, damage, and number of shots as a bolt rifle, but more strength and range. Pulse Rifles are now better than bolt rifles. That at least feels right. Wonder what they do with Pulse Blasters.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 17:50:37


Post by: Valkyrie


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
Not sure how this improves the way they'll operate in 9th edition. Increased range isn't quite what Tau need on a shrinking game board.

It doesn't address the faction's underlying problems in 9th, but it does address a common complaint about Tau vs Primaris weapons. Now the basic Tau infantry rifle has the same AP, damage, and number of shots as a bolt rifle, but more strength and range. Pulse Rifles are now better than bolt rifles. That at least feels right. Wonder what they do with Pulse Blasters.


My bet is that the ranges as a whole will go to 18/12/6 and that the 6" profile will be D2


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 19:32:22


Post by: Blndmage


*Cries in Necron "superior advanced technology"*


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 19:39:45


Post by: Lord Damocles


'More damage! That's sure to fix it!'


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 19:56:44


Post by: endlesswaltz123


Not sure this will improve how they operate? 18" rapid fire pulse rifles could be scary as feth with the inevitable boosts to shooting they will have access too.

Also, I disagree with fall back and shoot as an army wide rule, your whole army already gets free overwatch, it's one of the other really.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 20:14:30


Post by: ccs


 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Not sure this will improve how they operate? 18" rapid fire pulse rifles could be scary as feth with the inevitable boosts to shooting they will have access too.

Also, I disagree with fall back and shoot as an army wide rule, your whole army already gets free overwatch, it's one of the other really.


You new to this game?
What the army has NOW isn't necessarily the same as what it'll have in a new version of the codex.
Or even what it'll have next week.

Besides, if army wide free overwatch was that great you'd have heard much bitching about it (from people facing Tau).
Instead all you hear from just about everyone is how unplayable Tau are.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 21:56:56


Post by: The Servant


Interesting that Pulse Rifles went up to 36" range, with the Bor'Kan sept you can also get a 6" bonus to rapid fire weapons, making for a total range of 42", with rapid fire at 21".

A 90 point 10 man Fire Warrior squad could put out 30x S5 AP -1 shots at 21" if they have a Fireblade Cadre standing near them. Step in the right direction for people who love ANIME but also want to play IG style.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 22:20:56


Post by: Kanluwen


Pretty sure that Bor'kan is going to lose its bonus range.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/25 22:21:23


Post by: Tawnis


Everyone's talked a lot about the specifics for the Tau themselves, but what I would love to see for the Tau, even if they don't get their own codex (which they should in the vein of Harlequins), is something Kroot centric.

With they way codices have been going in 9th, Kroot will likely not get the <Core> Keyword which means they will be out some of the few benefits they actually can still get (like the Ethereal Aura and buffs). Kroot are already barely scraping by as it is, and with the chance of new models being very small, there are still a few things that could be done with what they have.

1. Bring back the Knarlocs: FW made these before, it's not strange to think they could bring this line back. Even if it's not in plastic, just having them available to purchase and no longer being Legendary would be huge. If they stay roughly as strong as they are now, the Knarloc riders are a solid melee option and they Greater Knarloc is very strong for its points cost. I don't think Tau themselves should have much melee, but the Kroot can and should fill that role for them.

2. Kroot HQ: Make Shapers HQ units, OR even better, make a "new" unit that uses the same profile as the Shaper with some stat/ability changes to be an HQ unit. No new model needed, though GW could do that and also milk this with a limited edition promo model; they love that kind of thing, and for something like this, yeah I'd buy it. Maybe they could take trophy weapons from other factions would could lead to some cool conversations?

3. Improve Kroot utility: Fix the wording on the Hidden Hunters stratagem to make it good (in response to being shot, not at start of phase). If we get a new HQ, some kind of new buff from them. Add a few new stratagems, at least one melee focused one for Carnivores. Make a "Sept" for the Kroot that doesn't effect Tau units just like the Septs don't effect Kroot.

3.5 Food Buffs: Each Kroot unit can select a pregame buff based on the food they most commonly consume and are "Shaping" into. This could be done for "free" buy giving them a general points hike, or, better yet, keep the points low and make these optional for point increases. Since GW like's their D6's for randomization, I'll list 6 potential options: 1) Psyker Powers: The unit can manifest / deny 1. It knows Smite and a custom Kroot one, likely a stealthy/defense buff (though I would love a whole Kroot Psychic table). 2) Ork Ferocity: +1 A and +1 Advance/Charge. 3) Astartes Resilience: +1 T, 6+ FNP. 4) Human Tenacity: +1 Ld, +1 BS if remained stationary. 5) Eldar Alacrity: +1 M, +1 WS. 6) Beastial Nature: +1M, +1 S, +1 T, +1 A, +1 W. This unit must always move at maximum speed to the nearest enemy and must attempt to charge it if possible. This unit may not shoot.

Lore wise, Kroot don't feed on Tau, Necrons (they only made that mistake once), Tyranids, or Chaos, so I didn't list anything for them.

4. Krootsade Support: Kind of like what I said in 3.5, there is so much potential customizability with the Kroot and if we get it nowhere else, we should at least get it in Crusade.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/26 03:10:12


Post by: Dandelion


As for things I’d like to see:
- all battle suits except stealth suits gain the vehicle keyword. This lets them shoot into combat and otherwise brings them in line with other factions by allowing things like arc rifles to actually work on them.
- most battle suits need a wound increase. IMO, crisis suits should get 5 wounds like kills kans or penitent engines, enforcer/coldstars should get 8 like dreadnoughts, ghostkeel should have 12 like armigers, and riptide could get 16 or so. The reason for this is to reduce the need for drones.
- all suits gain BS 3+ just like the hammerhead.
- gun drones should be able to shoot into combat, but they lose any ability to actually fight. Kinda like in Dawn of War. This might not be necessary I admit.
- I’d give crisis suits obsec.
- This would make crisis suits and drones our primary option for contesting objectives, which feels appropriate I think. A nice big heavy hitter that can deal with all targets gets dropped where it’s needed most.
- vespid could be made a bit better in combat to diversify the support crisis suits get on the front lines.
- kroot need a huge rules overhaul. Without getting into details, they could act like a hybrid between wyches and kabalites. Partially a skirmisher unit, but one that hits hard in combat while being hard to hit back. Also a better outflank/infiltrate rule would help. It’d be cool if they also synergized with pathfinders in a scouting role, as in let them both infiltrate together or something. Kroot hounds are mostly fine, but the krootox needs to hit harder in combat.
- an overall boost to things like railguns would also help.
-tweak marker lights so that seeker missiles are easy to use(eg, one marker = one guaranteed hit), and each marker can only buff one weapon at a time and is expended in the process. So if need be you can use it on a railgun or something, but it’s not required for the army to function. And the buff can be minor, like ignoring obscuring terrain, it doesn’t have to be +1 BS. Basically it’d be a nice tool to have, but not strictly necessary.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/26 20:28:53


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


As suspected, the new weapon profiles are nice, but this is the minimum we should expect in the world of 9th killy-ness right now. A good start, though, even if on tiny boards full of armies charging on turn 1.....

We should assume that breachers and pulse blasters will get a similar damage buff, which will still be useless unless we have a good assault transport to deliver them/clear objectives

Markerlights need an entire rework as well, and lots of smarter folks have suggested new uses for them.



[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/26 23:01:17


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I'll not lie, 36" RF1 S5 AP1 d1 isn't a bad start to a gunline army. With a special sept that pushes that out to 42", that means 2 shots at 24" per firewarrior, and that will get ugly fast.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/26 23:26:19


Post by: Voss


 Lord Damocles wrote:
'More damage! That's sure to fix it!'


'But this one goes to eleven!' is the only design space 9th edition has.
Its just a matter of giving the same amp to everyone.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/27 03:11:27


Post by: Zustiur


I know my tastes don't match the majority, but I'd start by deleting the large suits, and restoring the 12 model standard...

I got into tau for their tanks (and a paint scheme). Not anime suits.
I really liked them using base 8 counting and 12 model units.

As annoying as jump shoot jump is/was, I think that's kind of key to how Tau function when not playing pure gunline. There has to be a way to make it work without being obnoxious. It would definitely help in terms of taking hold of objectives - move up, shoot the enemy off it, move onto the objective.

Other than that, I don't really have a lot of ideas for them because the faction has already moved so far away from its roots, and because I have limited interest in 9th.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/27 04:33:30


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


Zustiur wrote:
I know my tastes don't match the majority, but I'd start by deleting the large suits, and restoring the 12 model standard...

I got into tau for their tanks (and a paint scheme). Not anime suits.
I really liked them using base 8 counting and 12 model units.

As annoying as jump shoot jump is/was, I think that's kind of key to how Tau function when not playing pure gunline. There has to be a way to make it work without being obnoxious. It would definitely help in terms of taking hold of objectives - move up, shoot the enemy off it, move onto the objective.

Other than that, I don't really have a lot of ideas for them because the faction has already moved so far away from its roots, and because I have limited interest in 9th.


I like the suits being part of the lineup, not the forced only route to be playable as currently designed part :( I'd love to get a ton of tanks of different varieties but they are all just so awful.

The codex is just like 80% fluff with mostly useless units, and I just doubt GW is going to retire most of them :/



[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/27 04:39:06


Post by: Togusa


T'au being locked out of two phases of the game was a "neat" gimmick back in the day. But it makes for extremely bland and boring game play. Given that the T'au are a coalition of races, they need to have the ability to compete in those two areas.

First, obviously they need a new book.
Secondly and probably more important than the first point is they need some new models. Adding in a couple of new HQ from some new alien group that has recently allied with them and has a firm understanding of Psionics and the warp should be the focus here. Secondly, give a new suit class that has some sick wolverine claws or a a pair of energy blades.

Putting more focus on Aux would also be welcomed. To see new sculpts for Kroot and new units allowing for greater playability and such would go a long way towards having an impact on the tabletop.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/27 08:41:40


Post by: Grimtuff


 Togusa wrote:
T'au being locked out of two phases of the game was a "neat" gimmick back in the day. But it makes for extremely bland and boring game play. Given that the T'au are a coalition of races, they need to have the ability to compete in those two areas.


But they weren't, as I detailed in my post earlier ITT...

Back in the day, there were only 3 phases in the game- Move, Shooting and Assault. Tau actively participated in all 3, the last one either through JSJ, Kroot or even charging those same Crisis Suits into melee, yes they were WS2, but had 3 attacks each at S5 on the charge so could pack a bit of a punch if you were getting desperate. JSJ and mobility was what differentiated them from IG, both have been taken away and for the worse.

I'd say, only since the (re)introduction of the psychic phase and Tau somehow morphing into a gunline army (something I believe is only from 8th onwards due to the loss of JSJ) have they been "locked out" from two phases, and even then they quite literally weren't locked out of the assault phase as Kroot are a thing. People not wanting to take Kroot is a fault of them having subpar stats, not the gimmick of the Tau.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/27 14:18:40


Post by: Aenar


Compare a Kroot Carnivore at 6 ppm with a Skitarii or Ork boy at 9 ppm or a Kabalite Warrior/Wrack at 8 ppm and you have the answer to why nobody takes them. Even Tyr Gants are on a different planet compared to Kroots.
Guardsmen at 5.5 ppm are a different story entirely, as their value lies in orders and it is basically what makes IG unique.

Kroots are trash even when compared with other trash troop choices in the same book, like Fire Warriors or Breachers at 9 ppm.
Even assuming the 5 ppm universal floor went away, current Kroot would be useless at 4 ppm. Maybe at 3 ppm you could consider flooding the board with them, but even then I wouldn't be so sure.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/27 14:58:40


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I really hope they give FWs a points bump because I don't want to have to spend half the game wading through 100 FWs shooting me from across the map. It's clear to me at least that GW is trying to let Tau cling to the "Yeah we suck in melee, too bad you'll never make it there" gimmick with them. I don't see how everyone thinks they HAVE to suck in melee. They are pound for pound bigger and stronger than a standard human. I'm not saying they can arm wrestle an astartes, but they should be able to at least hold their own as well as say, a Catachan?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/27 15:32:22


Post by: bullyboy


No, the basic Tau sucks in melee and should remain so. Battlesuits OTOH should absolutely be able to engage in melee, but we know there are no new models (outside of darkstrider) coming so it comes down to leveraging their current weapon systems to give it a melee profile. It's already been done with Fusion (fusion blades) and I could see possibly adding flamers possibly into the mix with a melee profile.
I don't know how GW will go about making them playable (I do not want a gunline army), so hopefully it's more thought than just boosting AP etc.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/27 17:40:42


Post by: SemperMortis


I failed to make this prediction before the new rules were leaked but my theory was that GW is going to buff all their shooting to make them ridiculous again. The 36' S5-1AP is okish but I have a feeling thats going to translate across the board, I don't know which weapons are going to be the new broken cheese but I have a feeling its going to be Burst cannons or smart missiles and they will be good at just about everything.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/27 18:39:31


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


SemperMortis wrote:
I failed to make this prediction before the new rules were leaked but my theory was that GW is going to buff all their shooting to make them ridiculous again. The 36' S5-1AP is okish but I have a feeling thats going to translate across the board, I don't know which weapons are going to be the new broken cheese but I have a feeling its going to be Burst cannons or smart missiles and they will be good at just about everything.


Let's also remember 36" s5 ap1 will be the baseline, without the multiple auras and drones that will send it into overdrive with rerolls and other buffs. We've got quite a few characters and drones and stratagems that would already make a few blobs of these silly dangerous.

We keep getting back to the Tau not needing to be more shooty and killy per se past a buff to 9th current standards, we just want to play the damn mission and compete for points in the other areas of the game.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/27 19:09:24


Post by: SemperMortis


OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I failed to make this prediction before the new rules were leaked but my theory was that GW is going to buff all their shooting to make them ridiculous again. The 36' S5-1AP is okish but I have a feeling thats going to translate across the board, I don't know which weapons are going to be the new broken cheese but I have a feeling its going to be Burst cannons or smart missiles and they will be good at just about everything.


Let's also remember 36" s5 ap1 will be the baseline, without the multiple auras and drones that will send it into overdrive with rerolls and other buffs. We've got quite a few characters and drones and stratagems that would already make a few blobs of these silly dangerous.

We keep getting back to the Tau not needing to be more shooty and killy per se past a buff to 9th current standards, we just want to play the damn mission and compete for points in the other areas of the game.


Yep. If the buffs stay the same you could have a unit of firewarriors double tapping +1 at 22' range. That would be 9ppm guys with 3 S5 -1AP shots. So a unit of 10 would put out 30 shots, 15 hits, 10 wounds and 5 dmg to a Marine unit. Thats 90pts of Firewarrior tapping 50pts of Marines at 22' range. And thats without any other buffs like +1 BS or rerolls etc. I just have a bad feeling GW is going to break the game again with Tau. Hopefully they nerf overwatch a bit because otherwise its going to be a bad day to be an ork player again

I remember in 8th where my opponent ran a blob of Firewarriors interlocking one another so if you charged any of them you got hit in the face with 40 overwatching firewarriors with 3 shots each hitting on 5s. Basically, unless you charged in a battlewagon first, you couldn't get your boyz into CC because they would all die to overwatch.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/27 19:18:25


Post by: Aenar


I'll be completely honest: if they break the game again I don't care. I just want to play my Tau.
If we end up being broken for 3-6 months, nerfs will come with the next update.
So is the state of current 40k.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/28 01:03:32


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


 Aenar wrote:
I'll be completely honest: if they break the game again I don't care. I just want to play my Tau.
If we end up being broken for 3-6 months, nerfs will come with the next update.
So is the state of current 40k.


If we can only win with the castle up and blast them off the table in two turns and walk onto objectives method no one will be having much fun on either end of that


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/28 01:12:36


Post by: ccs


OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
I'll be completely honest: if they break the game again I don't care. I just want to play my Tau.
If we end up being broken for 3-6 months, nerfs will come with the next update.
So is the state of current 40k.


If we can only win with the castle up and blast them off the table in two turns and walk onto objectives method no one will be having much fun on either end of that


But.... Given all the complaints about how lethal the game is & how people get tabled in 2-3turns, isn't that exactly what everyone else is doing? Why would you want to be left out?
and how do you propose to survive until turns 3, 4, maybe even 5?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/28 08:30:59


Post by: Aenar


OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
I'll be completely honest: if they break the game again I don't care. I just want to play my Tau.
If we end up being broken for 3-6 months, nerfs will come with the next update.
So is the state of current 40k.


If we can only win with the castle up and blast them off the table in two turns and walk onto objectives method no one will be having much fun on either end of that

Oh I agree. I won a game against meta SM a couple of days ago exactly with that game plan and it wasn't a fun experience for neither of us.
I went second, kept my army hidden behind obscuring terrain for my turn 1 as well (shooting only with SMS, ignoring LOS), once his army was all around the table in the open I tabled him by turn 4 and won the game getting 15-0 turn 5 in primary. He killed only a Devilfish, a Vespid unit and a bunch of Drones, while I removed 2000 points of Dreads, VanVets and other SM infantry.
He certainly did not enjoy the game and I wasn't pleased with it as well. I simply played the only way I could to try to win.
In retrospection he should've played more cagey and tried to sit on deeper objectives with a couple more units, so that I wouldn't have been able to shoot him off them. But where's the fun in sitting still against a gunline army?

I want a Tau ruleset that makes for an interesting game for both players. But since I'm tired of being let down by GW while having even the most modest expectations, I'm accepting whatever rules they have in store for us.
If we are to be the next AdMech or Freebootaz for a few months, so be it. Balance updates are a quarterly thing now so we only have to suffer a specific broken army for so long.
Unless they are Dark Eldar


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/28 12:43:26


Post by: Ordana


SemperMortis wrote:
OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I failed to make this prediction before the new rules were leaked but my theory was that GW is going to buff all their shooting to make them ridiculous again. The 36' S5-1AP is okish but I have a feeling thats going to translate across the board, I don't know which weapons are going to be the new broken cheese but I have a feeling its going to be Burst cannons or smart missiles and they will be good at just about everything.


Let's also remember 36" s5 ap1 will be the baseline, without the multiple auras and drones that will send it into overdrive with rerolls and other buffs. We've got quite a few characters and drones and stratagems that would already make a few blobs of these silly dangerous.

We keep getting back to the Tau not needing to be more shooty and killy per se past a buff to 9th current standards, we just want to play the damn mission and compete for points in the other areas of the game.


Yep. If the buffs stay the same you could have a unit of firewarriors double tapping +1 at 22' range. That would be 9ppm guys with 3 S5 -1AP shots. So a unit of 10 would put out 30 shots, 15 hits, 10 wounds and 5 dmg to a Marine unit. Thats 90pts of Firewarrior tapping 50pts of Marines at 22' range. And thats without any other buffs like +1 BS or rerolls etc. I just have a bad feeling GW is going to break the game again with Tau. Hopefully they nerf overwatch a bit because otherwise its going to be a bad day to be an ork player again

I remember in 8th where my opponent ran a blob of Firewarriors interlocking one another so if you charged any of them you got hit in the face with 40 overwatching firewarriors with 3 shots each hitting on 5s. Basically, unless you charged in a battlewagon first, you couldn't get your boyz into CC because they would all die to overwatch.
Tyranids are doing similar things with Gaunts with Devourers for less points.
This change might end up making them 'usable' but probably still not good enough for spamming in competitive lists. I don't see it making Firewarriors 'broken'.

9th edition is simply that crazy on firepower on the actually good units.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/28 14:31:29


Post by: ccs


 Ordana wrote:


I remember in 8th where my opponent ran a blob of Firewarriors interlocking one another so if you charged any of them you got hit in the face with 40 overwatching firewarriors with 3 shots each hitting on 5s. Basically, unless you charged in a battlewagon first, you couldn't get your boyz into CC because they would all die to overwatch.
Tyranids are doing similar things with Gaunts with Devourers for less points.
This change might end up making them 'usable' but probably still not good enough for spamming in competitive lists. I don't see it making Firewarriors 'broken'.

9th edition is simply that crazy on firepower on the actually good units.


Leads me to a weird rules based vision of a Leman Russ firing its BC into such a mixed mob - and only hitting models from unit A.
Sure, x dead gants are still x dead, but I dont think HE shells are that discriminating....
Alas for the lack of my templates.:(


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/28 20:11:49


Post by: Hecaton


I kinda think that making Tau good is going to run up against GW's most important goal, keeping Astartes players happy. Having Tau be good on the tabletop or have good portrayals in fluff is going to make the segment of Astartes players that love their JUSTIFIED GENOCIDE and ASTARTES POWER FANTASY and so on unhappy.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/28 20:13:30


Post by: Ordana


Hecaton wrote:
I kinda think that making Tau good is going to run up against GW's most important goal, keeping Astartes players happy. Having Tau be good on the tabletop or have good portrayals in fluff is going to make the segment of Astartes players that love their JUSTIFIED GENOCIDE and ASTARTES POWER FANTASY and so on unhappy.
Which is why no army other then Marines has ever been good, right?

right?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/28 21:16:03


Post by: Dysartes


Hecaton wrote:
I kinda think that making Tau good is going to run up against GW's most important goal, keeping Astartes players happy. Having Tau be good on the tabletop or have good portrayals in fluff is going to make the segment of Astartes players that love their JUSTIFIED GENOCIDE and ASTARTES POWER FANTASY and so on unhappy.

Any chance of you changing the record this decade?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/28 23:15:13


Post by: ccs


Hecaton wrote:
I kinda think that making Tau good is going to run up against GW's most important goal, keeping Astartes players happy. Having Tau be good on the tabletop or have good portrayals in fluff is going to make the segment of Astartes players that love their JUSTIFIED GENOCIDE and ASTARTES POWER FANTASY and so on unhappy.


Keep spewing nonsense.

As for enjoying JUSTIFIED GENOCIDE? I think every other force I own can lay claim to enjoying that:
•Korne- blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne....
•Necrons- "1100111011100....."
Spoiler:
the living!"

•Tau- it's for the "Greater Good". Really, it is. We swear!
•Drukari- we're eeevil.
•Eldar- "Eldrad (points) told us to!" Eldrad mumbles something inscrutable in not-(space) Elvish about "visions:....
•"WAAAGH!" - all 10 of my KT Orks.
•Guard- (shrugging) "Orders."
•Sisters of Battle- "Burn/purge the {enemies name here}!"
•Tyranids- "Mmmm, dinner....."
Yep. All justified.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/28 23:17:01


Post by: Strat_N8


 Aenar wrote:
Compare a Kroot Carnivore at 6 ppm with a Skitarii or Ork boy at 9 ppm or a Kabalite Warrior/Wrack at 8 ppm and you have the answer to why nobody takes them. Even Tyr Gants are on a different planet compared to Kroots.


Kroot don't look too bad compared to a base Fleshborer Termagant. The single extra point buys an extra inch of movement, a pre-game move, an extra shot at 12'' or double range for single shot, WS3+ instead of 4+, and S4 instead of S3 in melee. I actually ran 60 Kroot in a list for a local event a couple weeks ago partially based on finding them similar to Termagants (mostly using both types of troops for holding objectives with bodies and actions).

I do think they would benefit from more attacks (in keeping with how most assault troops have gone up) either baseline or as a benefit of their Kroot Rifle's melee profile. It would also be nice if the other Kroot units could be attached to Carnivore squads like Tactical Drones, so if you wanted some high strength or overwatch bait you wouldn't need to give up elite or fast slots that would prefer to be used on suits and marklight support.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/29 12:12:37


Post by: Tyel


If Kroot had morale immunity I think they'd be solid at 6 points. As it is big units are a bit of a liability.

With that said you have a BS4 boltgun, a WS3+ S4 melee attack and that free 7" move at the start of the game. Compared to similar pointed units, that's a dramatic upgrade in damage. And you have relatively easy/cheap ways to give reroll 1s to hit and wound.

Admittedly, Devilgaunts at just 7 points are better - but I think few would deny they are good these days especially with the various Tyranid synergies.

The time will soon be past with a new Codex, but I'll continue to think there's something to +/- 150-180 Kroot with a couple of ethereals and shapers buffing them up to flood the board shooty stuff sits behind them (idk, Commanders, a solitary riptide, some broadsides). But I'm not convinced its not a collection anyone sane would own.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/29 12:29:56


Post by: Valkyrie


I really don't know if Kroot or Vespid could actually be effectively implemented into the game. As someone said previously there used to be a few extra Kroot units like the Great Knarlocs, but unless we get a good number of extra kits (almost certainly not but I'm clinging to hope that we get more than just an updated character), then can we represent this quite unique race with a very mediocre unit and a couple of addons which really don't do much except waste points?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/29 13:36:17


Post by: Ordana


Tyel wrote:
If Kroot had morale immunity I think they'd be solid at 6 points. As it is big units are a bit of a liability.

With that said you have a BS4 boltgun, a WS3+ S4 melee attack and that free 7" move at the start of the game. Compared to similar pointed units, that's a dramatic upgrade in damage. And you have relatively easy/cheap ways to give reroll 1s to hit and wound.

Admittedly, Devilgaunts at just 7 points are better - but I think few would deny they are good these days especially with the various Tyranid synergies.

The time will soon be past with a new Codex, but I'll continue to think there's something to +/- 150-180 Kroot with a couple of ethereals and shapers buffing them up to flood the board shooty stuff sits behind them (idk, Commanders, a solitary riptide, some broadsides). But I'm not convinced its not a collection anyone sane would own.
The issue with hordes is that the top armies have no problem chewing through them.

That's also what happens to Devilgaunts, you get 1 really good shooting phase out of them, and then they tend to get easily cleaned up. Which is fine for Devilgaunts that remove major threats with a truly obscene amount of shots but less good when its just bodies being thrown on objectives.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/29 13:45:17


Post by: SemperMortis


 Aenar wrote:
Compare a Kroot Carnivore at 6 ppm with a Skitarii or Ork boy at 9 ppm or a Kabalite Warrior/Wrack at 8 ppm and you have the answer to why nobody takes them. Even Tyr Gants are on a different planet compared to Kroots.


I can...but you won't like it

For starters, 6ppm Carnivores vs 9ppm Boyz.

So 180pts of each gets you 30 Carnivores and 20 Boyz. Both have terrible leadership and run whenever taking casualties so that is kind of a moot point.

Movement: Kroot are better by 2 full inches, they also get that free 7' movement at the start of the game. So turn 1 the Kroot are 14' past deployment zone while my Boyz are 5.
WS: Exactly the same.
BS: Kroot win, BS4 to BS5
S: Orkz win S4 to S3. (Kind of) Kroot are S4 thanks to their weapon they have to take.
T: Orkz win, T5 to T3
W: exactly the same.
A: Orkz win, 2 to 1
Save: the same.

Weapons: Orkz either get a shoota or a choppa, Kroot get both So right off the bat, Kroot win.
Ranged: 24' Rapid Fire 1 S4 no AP. 30 of them ends with 15 hits or 30 at half range. Shoota boyz have 18' range Dakka 3/2 which means 2 shots most of the time for 40 shots and 13 hits. Kroot win.
CC: Against shoota boyz, its 30 attacks vs 40 so orkz win, against Choppa boyz its 30 attacks vs 60 and those attacks become -1AP So orkz win.

So Kroot have significantly better movement, better BS, better ranged weapon, basically the same strength, save, weapon skill and leadership as the ork, but they pay 50% less than the Ork Boy

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Kroot Carnivores are good, i'm just pointing out how bad Ork boyz currently are Mostly due to their abysmal morale issues, though shoota boyz could use a massive boost as well.




[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/29 18:10:27


Post by: Aenar


Ork Boyz lack a reliable delivery mechanism, but between T5, their melee output and the codex synergies they are still miles ahead of Kroots.
Same thing for Fleshborer Gants, looking at their statline in a vacuum means ignoring their potential, which lies again in codex synergies (strats and so on) that make them a reliable alpha strike unit.

Kroot have nothing, just their stats.
They aren't even the cheapest Tau troop choice as they come in 60 pts units while Fire Warriors are 45 pts minimum. Even as tax troop choices they are sub par.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/29 18:24:30


Post by: ChiliPowderKeg


 Valkyrie wrote:
I really don't know if Kroot or Vespid could actually be effectively implemented into the game. As someone said previously there used to be a few extra Kroot units like the Great Knarlocs, but unless we get a good number of extra kits (almost certainly not but I'm clinging to hope that we get more than just an updated character), then can we represent this quite unique race with a very mediocre unit and a couple of addons which really don't do much except waste points?


Again, let Kroot outflank unhindered like they used to. Let them show up to apply pressure to min-sized objective campers that are hugging the board edge or pick up an objective that has been ignored. Allowing them to get the drop on a choice spot on the board will give them some teeth that they lost in the transition from 7th to 8th.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/29 20:59:40


Post by: Tyel


 Ordana wrote:
That's also what happens to Devilgaunts, you get 1 really good shooting phase out of them, and then they tend to get easily cleaned up. Which is fine for Devilgaunts that remove major threats with a truly obscene amount of shots but less good when its just bodies being thrown on objectives.


This is true - but cynically I feel its usually because you have one (at most two) Devilgaunt units in reserve that you expect to come in, break out stratagems/bonuses, maybe shoot twice depending on what's gone on with the Hive Guard, get a load of points in the bank and then be immediately focused down with extreme prejudice because your 210 point unit just did considerably more than 210 points worth of damage.

I'm not sure what a Tyranid Army would look like with say... 150~ devilgaunts on the table from the get-go. Obviously they can't all be buffed up like that one unit - but equally its unlikely they are all being cleared off turn 1. I'd imagine the argument however is that they die faster than say Hive Guard, Tyranid Warriors etc versus a range of weapon profiles so its not really worth it.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/29 23:59:23


Post by: die toten hosen


Id rather auxiliaries not be the focus of the new book, theyre hyper bland and honestly could just be squatted with zero effect to the playability or viability to the army over all.

Kroot have some cult of memes built around them and human auxiliaries were never good and were intentionally made to not be good in the one IA they were in, Taros iirc.

Focus on suits, a new markerlight system, and unit upgrades. Tau to me is the custom build army, every suit is generally built to serve many potential situations. granted the riptide is an outlier but thats the reason its been so weird since it came out. make meaningful options for systems and weapons for crisis suits, no shoe horned melee option like the fusion blades and onager fist.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/30 00:20:13


Post by: Amishprn86


After seeing the new rules. I REALLY hope Tau is just not buffed guns, that would be the worst way to make them better.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/30 02:06:58


Post by: Hecaton


 Ordana wrote:
Which is why no army other then Marines has ever been good, right?

right?


Specifically Tau. Parts of the pro-Imperium segment of the fanbase *despise* Tau to the point where they denigrate the Tau part of the playerbase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dysartes wrote:
Any chance of you changing the record this decade?


When GW changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:

Keep spewing nonsense.


The difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying is that the Astartes (and the Imperium) are portrayed as, and described as, heroic and righteous from an out-of-universe perspective.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/30 03:37:43


Post by: Voss


Hecaton wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Which is why no army other then Marines has ever been good, right?

right?


Specifically Tau. Parts of the pro-Imperium segment of the fanbase *despise* Tau to the point where they denigrate the Tau part of the playerbase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dysartes wrote:
Any chance of you changing the record this decade?


When GW changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:

Keep spewing nonsense.


The difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying is that the Astartes (and the Imperium) are portrayed as, and described as, heroic and righteous from an out-of-universe perspective.

No, the difference is you're part of the audience that required GW to post an article explaining what satire is. [Note: solely the part explaining the literary concept, not the part telling neo-Nazi types off]


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/30 03:55:28


Post by: Talurit


SemperMortis wrote:


Weapons: Orkz either get a shoota or a choppa, Kroot get both So right off the bat, Kroot win.
Ranged: 24' Rapid Fire 1 S4 no AP. 30 of them ends with 15 hits or 30 at half range. Shoota boyz have 18' range Dakka 3/2 which means 2 shots most of the time for 40 shots and 13 hits. Kroot win.
CC: Against shoota boyz, its 30 attacks vs 40 so orkz win, against Choppa boyz its 30 attacks vs 60 and those attacks become -1AP So orkz win.


I did have to address this, since before the boyz points increase a friend and I were discussing the point of Kroot.

Firstly, if I'm talking shooting, I'm not looking at Kroot, but that's really beside the point.

The main part is Kroot don't get a choppa. I haven't played with Kroot since 8th, but I checked their profile, and don't remember any strats. As far as I know, there is no way to bring a carnivore above 1A. 20 Kroot? 20 str4 ws3+ attacks.

I don't know about you, but when you can't put out the melee of even a tactical marine, I can't be excited to run a squad into combat.

Carnivores have the job of dying on objectives and that's about it, since you can't even overwatch for them with the greater good any more


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/30 04:12:25


Post by: ccs


Hecaton wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:

Keep spewing nonsense.


The difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying is that the Astartes (and the Imperium) are portrayed as, and described as, heroic and righteous from an out-of-universe perspective.


bs.
Since day 1 of Rogue Trader it has ALWAYS been presented as an absurd over the top dark satire/parody. Through words & art.
Only some sort of fool reads about the Imperium and goes "Oh, they're the Good Guys!"

To top it off, GW DIRECTLY TELLS YOU THIS from time to time. Often through WD articles in ages past, but more recently pretty blatantly....

Here, go read the most current statement again: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/





[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/30 05:36:09


Post by: Jarms48


 Aenar wrote:
Compare a Kroot Carnivore at 6 ppm with a Skitarii or Ork boy at 9 ppm or a Kabalite Warrior/Wrack at 8 ppm and you have the answer to why nobody takes them.


5 point Kroot with current stats would be amazing actually. I would instantly try taking a Kroot horde.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/30 06:25:14


Post by: Vaktathi


Hey all, if we can stick to Tau and 9E instead of the depths of lore themes and strangeness of the fanbase, it would keep the thread more productive. Thanks!


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/30 13:53:54


Post by: G00fySmiley


Now that GW is playing around with stat lines, I do hope kroot fit the lore. They in the books (and represented by the models) are supposed to be fast, fierce and somewhat resilient to fire so maybe they get a T4 upgrade. also giving their weapon the chainsword/choppa extra attack might make them worthwhile general troops. Also would be cool to see them pull a Tzangor and bring out more options for kroot, maybe a heavier armored infantry variant


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/30 16:22:17


Post by: SemperMortis


 Aenar wrote:
Ork Boyz lack a reliable delivery mechanism, but between T5, their melee output and the codex synergies they are still miles ahead of Kroots.
Same thing for Fleshborer Gants, looking at their statline in a vacuum means ignoring their potential, which lies again in codex synergies (strats and so on) that make them a reliable alpha strike unit.

Kroot have nothing, just their stats.
They aren't even the cheapest Tau troop choice as they come in 60 pts units while Fire Warriors are 45 pts minimum. Even as tax troop choices they are sub par.


What codex synergies? They don't have any Which is why If you go look at 40kstats and inspect every ork list for the last 3 months you will see maybe 3-5 units of MSU ork boyz TOTAL. I'm not exaggerating either, almost nobody is taking any ork boyz at all, and the couple who are, are using them as a 10 boy troop tax. And they aren't even the "cheapest troop choice" which is why MORE lists are taking 50pt MSU Grot troop taxes so you can save the 40pts for useful units.

Kroot are very similar to ork boyz atm. Sadly that isn't a good thing, they are both functionally useless


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/11/30 20:25:50


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


SemperMortis wrote:

Kroot are very similar to ork boyz atm. Sadly that isn't a good thing, they are both functionally useless


That's a big hurdle for us, like 75% of the Tau codex is utterly useless right now, it seems like most everything in there is extraneous fluff. I'd ditch most all of it and build out from restatted main units again but I doubt GW will 'retire' anything.

In my dream of dreams we'd be able to have reasonable lists that are mechanized focused, suit focused, infantry focused, or auxiliary focused.

Think of the other armies with huge model ranged like Guard, while they aren't stomping the top tier you can field a bunch of different stuff with wildly different playstyles and have fun at least and not -immediately- lose



[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/14 23:58:10


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/14/master-the-ways-of-montka-and-kauyon-with-codex-tau-empires-new-tactical-philosophies/

Here we go let's see....


That....doesn't look that bad...right?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/15 04:38:42


Post by: pumaman1


Given that since 6th edition, you rarely have 1/2 or more of your army left by turn 3, who would ever take kauyon outside of a thematic battle? Montka is very good, missilesides just got even stronger


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/15 10:33:59


Post by: Ordana


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/14/master-the-ways-of-montka-and-kauyon-with-codex-tau-empires-new-tactical-philosophies/

Here we go let's see....


That....doesn't look that bad...right?
losing fall back and shoot from Mont'ka is massive unless there are other ways of getting it. Competitive Tau lists are running Farsight just to be able to retreat twice in a game.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/15 11:07:14


Post by: Valkyrie


Yeah I'm not impressed at all with these changes, in particular how every army seems to have a game-spanning effect such as Combat Doctrines or Necrons' Protocols, but ours is limited to half of the game.



[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/15 15:10:30


Post by: SemperMortis


 Valkyrie wrote:
Yeah I'm not impressed at all with these changes, in particular how every army seems to have a game-spanning effect such as Combat Doctrines or Necrons' Protocols, but ours is limited to half of the game.



Orks get "WAAAAGH" or "SPEED WAAAAGH" Which lasts 1 turn with full benefits and a 2nd turn with half benefits. Tau get to choose between 2 army wide special rules and realistically they will pick the first one since its doubles their AP on most weapons.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/15 23:40:02


Post by: Tawnis


 Aenar wrote:
Ork Boyz lack a reliable delivery mechanism, but between T5, their melee output and the codex synergies they are still miles ahead of Kroots.
Same thing for Fleshborer Gants, looking at their statline in a vacuum means ignoring their potential, which lies again in codex synergies (strats and so on) that make them a reliable alpha strike unit.

Kroot have nothing, just their stats.
They aren't even the cheapest Tau troop choice as they come in 60 pts units while Fire Warriors are 45 pts minimum. Even as tax troop choices they are sub par.


I did miss out on this a few weeks ago when it was posted, but I feel compelled to jump in and defend my favorite alien race.

Are they really good, no, but there are two specific circumstances I've a had a lot of success with Kroot in.

1. In a Kroot heavy swarm list. You use Ethereals to give the Kroot a 6+ FNP and LD 9 which makes them (for their points cost) pretty durable. If you can stick them in cover with Hidden Hunters, even better. I grab all the midfield objectives turn 1 with their pregame move and just weather the storm. Most armies (that I've fought so far at least) have enough committed to dealing with tanks and monsters that they have trouble removing so many tiny bodies in 10 man units fast enough. I run 2 blobs of 30 Carnivores each baked by an Ethereal and a Shaper for re-roll 1's to wound and banners, then focus down all their obsec units first (All told that's only 570 points including drones for 68 bodies to gum up the midfield, then you've filled your HQ and Troops too so you can just get whatever after that). Currently 7-0 with that strat (though this is local league of casual players, not tournament so YMMV if that is more your thing as I have no data there)

2. As a single unit for grabbing a midfield objective in cover. You loose a lot without the Etheral backup and I certainly wouldn't recommend them en masse at that point, however a single unit at 60 points isn't that huge an investment for a Midfield objective. If it's in cover, you get a 4+ sv and -1 to be hit with the hidden hunters strat. That's going to take a not insignificant amount of small arms fire to dislodge. Compare that to the only other Obsec option that can get up there that fast, a unit of 5 Fire Warriors in a Devilfish which all told is a min of 115 points and the Troops part of it is just as fragile as they have half the bodies and no defensive strat.

I'm actually worried that Kroot will get an unintentional nerf in the codex, not being <Core> and loosing out on the main draw to them in option 1.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/16 00:20:56


Post by: ccs


SemperMortis wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Yeah I'm not impressed at all with these changes, in particular how every army seems to have a game-spanning effect such as Combat Doctrines or Necrons' Protocols, but ours is limited to half of the game.



Orks get "WAAAAGH" or "SPEED WAAAAGH" Which lasts 1 turn with full benefits and a 2nd turn with half benefits. Tau get to choose between 2 army wide special rules and realistically they will pick the first one since its doubles their AP on most weapons.


Well, that and few of them will be left alive to benefit from the 2nd come turns 3+....


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/16 05:58:00


Post by: Tawnis


 pumaman1 wrote:
Given that since 6th edition, you rarely have 1/2 or more of your army left by turn 3, who would ever take kauyon outside of a thematic battle? Montka is very good, missilesides just got even stronger


Could possibly be ways to modify, we don't know yet. Ex: Shadowsun's WT could be something like start Kauyon on turn 2 which suddenly sounds a lot more appealing.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/17 14:49:36


Post by: bedivere


Just gonna throw it out there, wouldn't Kauyon favour those who have re enforcements or use manta strike?
The release indicated that it is an ambush tactic, and ambush tactics always make me think about dropping units onto or near targets or objectives.

You could easily have a few units for turns 1 and 2 to capture and keep a few basic nearby objectives and then come down hard and heavy with everything else and that may favour some missions, would that make sense in that scenario?


Just to add, this would also make sense if they are / do move XV8 crisis suits to troop choice, to allow more troops to drop in and would be a good option.
Makes me think that maybe they would remove the Mont’ka and Kauyon abilities from farsight and shadowsun and give them manat strike?
Would be good to make the devilfish either assult transport or manta strike ability just so it can be used to drop troops in aswell (like a drop pop)


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/17 17:17:00


Post by: Ordana


bedivere wrote:
Just gonna throw it out there, wouldn't Kauyon favour those who have re enforcements or use manta strike?
The release indicated that it is an ambush tactic, and ambush tactics always make me think about dropping units onto or near targets or objectives.

You could easily have a few units for turns 1 and 2 to capture and keep a few basic nearby objectives and then come down hard and heavy with everything else and that may favour some missions, would that make sense in that scenario?


Just to add, this would also make sense if they are / do move XV8 crisis suits to troop choice, to allow more troops to drop in and would be a good option.
Makes me think that maybe they would remove the Mont’ka and Kauyon abilities from farsight and shadowsun and give them manat strike?
Would be good to make the devilfish either assult transport or manta strike ability just so it can be used to drop troops in aswell (like a drop pop)
Because it doesn't work in 9th.

Your going second, your opponent has scored heavily twice and now you need to practically wipe them in a single turn on turn 3 because you need turn 4 and 5 to claw back the points deficit in order to win.

Remember, even if you arrive at the earlier opportunity, in turn 2, you won't be moving unto objectives until turn 3 and only score with those units at the start of your turn 4.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/17 23:45:09


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


Yea dunking people with a hard strike a few turns in means you already lost on objective points for the long haul.

Just...more me being nervous Tau still aren't going to play the gd 9th missions giving us bonuses halfway through the game when most of our goodstuffs are already dead in hyperlethal 9th edition


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/18 13:03:03


Post by: SemperMortis


bedivere wrote:
Just gonna throw it out there, wouldn't Kauyon favour those who have re enforcements or use manta strike?
The release indicated that it is an ambush tactic, and ambush tactics always make me think about dropping units onto or near targets or objectives.

You could easily have a few units for turns 1 and 2 to capture and keep a few basic nearby objectives and then come down hard and heavy with everything else and that may favour some missions, would that make sense in that scenario?


Just to add, this would also make sense if they are / do move XV8 crisis suits to troop choice, to allow more troops to drop in and would be a good option.
Makes me think that maybe they would remove the Mont’ka and Kauyon abilities from farsight and shadowsun and give them manat strike?
Would be good to make the devilfish either assult transport or manta strike ability just so it can be used to drop troops in aswell (like a drop pop)


Not to pile on you for at least being optimistic and thinking about this, but if you run into an alpha strike list...you run a significant chance of being tabled before your reinforcements arrive. My Alphork strike list LOVES when my opponent places max units in reserve. Means less on the table to stop me turn 1 from getting stuck into combat and removing swathes of enemy units. As an example, if you put 49% of your army in reserve to use Kauyon, turn 1 I have 3 units of 10 Kommandos (360pts) 9 inches from your deployment zone who turn 1 get to move 6, advance D6 and then charge 2D6. You also have a small swarm of 3x3 warbikers and 3x3 Deffkoptas all moving 14' turn 1 and the warbikers choosing to either advance or shoot while the deffkoptas just let loose with 18D3 Rokkitz and depending on deployment have a semi-reliable charge or for 1CP a very reliable charge (3D6 charge) you also have 3x Trukk boyz units which while significantly less damaging are also joining the fun because...why not? So turn 1 you will have close to 1,500pts of Orkz in your lines and you have 180pts of mek gunz plinking away from their lines. If that horde is only facing 1k pts of tau? its GG Turn 1, turn 2 at the absolute latest.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/20 14:23:11


Post by: dadx6


I spent some time looking at Battlescribe and thinking about how to counter the "Orkz in your face turn 1" tactic with Kauyon, and I don't think it's feasible with the tools the T'au currently have. For example, I thought about a kroot-heavy frontline to absorb the first turn of charges, with a stealth-heavy surge zone, including stealths, Ghostkeel, and a shaper to boost Kroot morale a tiny bit. I included an Ethereal to give the Kroot 6+ FNP (which is basically no help, really), and gave all the stealth suits shield generators and shield drones. I don't think it would be enough to hold out until turn 3 though.

The Kauyon strike would be Crisis suit teams with flamers, burst cannons, and fusion blasters set to drop in first turn of Kauyon and blast as many units to pieces as possible. Even with a Crisis suit commander and 3 crisis suit teams optimized for vehicle, MEQ, or GEQ destruction, I don't think there's a way to make it function currently.

Some things that would help:

-Add a Kroot ability to get increased bonuses from cover saves somehow. Tie to to the Shaper or add another Kroot elite or sergeant, whatever. This, combined with ethereal 6+ FNP (if that even works on Kroot?) would give them a little bit of staying power.
-Change the bonding knife ritual to a 1-use-per-battle ability that allows the unit to avoid having to make a morale check. Most units don't have to check leadership more than once in a battle - they get shot to pieces and then eliminated next turn. Let T'au units survive that first round of devastation without leadership issues.
-Bring back the "you can't target this unit at greater than X inches" rule for stealth suits. In 5th edition, if you chose a stealth unit to shoot at, you had to roll 3D6 and be within that range to be able to target them. It doesn't have to be that mechanic if you don't want to add dice rolls, but definitely add extra distance for terrain. A stealth team in light cover should be hard to target, not just harder to hit. This wouldn't save them from the Ork Rush, but it would mean they wouldn't get whittled down by turn 1 shooting.

These are just some ideas that seemed like they might (emphasis on might) make it possible for a tau army to withstand the green tide long enough for their shooting to matter. I don't think they'd be able to win, though, simply because turn 2 and turn 3 primary objectives would have been sacrificed. Moral victories aren't great victories, especially in WH40K. But that's all I see as being possible in the current scoring system.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/20 17:01:18


Post by: EightFoldPath


We've not got much information to go off currently, but I do think Tau in the hands of top players will be winning tournaments with Kauyon builds. The heavier terrain density and the cagier way the best players actually play does give Kauyon some potential.

Unless Tau are pointed like Dark Eldar/Orks, then it will Montka face-rolling time for 6 months.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/20 18:31:49


Post by: SemperMortis


EightFoldPath wrote:
We've not got much information to go off currently, but I do think Tau in the hands of top players will be winning tournaments with Kauyon builds. The heavier terrain density and the cagier way the best players actually play does give Kauyon some potential.

Unless Tau are pointed like Dark Eldar/Orks, then it will Montka face-rolling time for 6 months.


I have to disagree, you can have as much terrain as you want, the more you have the more it impacts the Tau (shooty) player rather then their opponent. Kauyon is DOA in my opinion. Most games are decided turn 1-2. You have to figure, turn 1 and turn 2 is when both armies are technically at their strongest. Very anecdotal, but in my games, if I haven't basically decided the game by turn 2 I think i'm screwed. Keep in mind, I am talking strictly about competitive/tournament playing here, not friendly games. An army wide buff that doesn't take effect until turn 3 at the earliest, and is weakest at that point isn't going to help the Tau win by much. Honestly, Kauyon style would be the best possible matchup for my Alphork army.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/20 19:30:21


Post by: Ordana


EightFoldPath wrote:
We've not got much information to go off currently, but I do think Tau in the hands of top players will be winning tournaments with Kauyon builds. The heavier terrain density and the cagier way the best players actually play does give Kauyon some potential.

Unless Tau are pointed like Dark Eldar/Orks, then it will Montka face-rolling time for 6 months.
The problem isn't hiding for 2 turns (tho half decent Rush list like Orks, DE, BA or BT will make that impossible). The problem is what hiding for 2 turns will do to your score and how your going to get those lost points back while also tabling your opponent in short order. And you will need to effectively table them because if they score some more you won't be able to catch up regardless of what you do.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/20 20:36:19


Post by: Aenar


EightFoldPath wrote:
We've not got much information to go off currently, but I do think Tau in the hands of top players will be winning tournaments with Kauyon builds. The heavier terrain density and the cagier way the best players actually play does give Kauyon some potential.

Unless Tau are pointed like Dark Eldar/Orks, then it will Montka face-rolling time for 6 months.

100% this. People who say that Kauyon is useless have no clue about playing Tau.
If there's a chance to build reliable alpha strike lists, Montka has a chance to be the optimal choice, but otherwise it's going to be Kauyon 90% of the time.
Only versus other gunlines Kauyon would make no sense, but against any army which as some melee capabilities fall back + shoot is too good to ignore.

The bonuses to damage (+1 Ap and reroll 1s to wound versus exploding 6s/5s/4s) are the icing on the cake. Too limited in range and target selection to be the rule upon which to base the entire game plan.
Nice to have when it's possible to activate them, but not crucial. What is crucial is the movement-related ability. And here Kauyon offers a lot more than Montka.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/20 21:27:37


Post by: dadx6


I really don't think you're right on this. A Kauyon T'au player won't be able to get control of midfield objectives until after turn 3, even if they go first. They'll be able to drop in their manta strike units and shoot the enemy off the objective with Kauyon, maybe, but they won't be able to move ONTO the objective until turn 4. In essence, they will have ceded half the scoring to the opponent. I don't think it's a winning strategy for tournaments.

Will Kauyon players be able to table their enemies in turns 4 or 5? Definitely maybe. But that doesn't mean you *WIN*, it just means you killed all the enemy forces. Maybe the codex will include a high-value secondary objective or two that Kauyon will be able to accomplish, but without durable units that can hold objectives into turn 2, I don't see Kauyon as being a winner.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/20 21:29:07


Post by: Mr.Pickels


Has anyone played with the idea of a deployable shield drone a "zone drone" that put put down a void shield like aoe that has 1 or maybe 3 wounds that would protect a 6" radius area. I'm not sure how drone controllers work for Firewarriors, but maybe as an upgrade for the squad, so when they pop out of a transport, boom, they have deployable cover. This would also work to save them from a "long bomb" charge as the enemy would need to break the shield to get to whoever is inside. Allow the shield token to be deployed on top of objectives. Make it once per game, so when the shield breaks, that's it, no more shield from that drone.
Maybe something like that would help to promote more fast movement/aggressive playstyle.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 04:38:25


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


Catching up on scoring will be the huge hurdle.

We can probably imagine stratagems / septs / characters that can modify these doctrines +/- 1 turn though, so a turn 3 ability kicks in on a turn 2 deepstrike or whatever. THAT might make things useful.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 11:48:29


Post by: carldooley


bedivere wrote:
Just gonna throw it out there, wouldn't Kauyon favour those who have re enforcements or use manta strike?
The release indicated that it is an ambush tactic, and ambush tactics always make me think about dropping units onto or near targets or objectives.

You could easily have a few units for turns 1 and 2 to capture and keep a few basic nearby objectives and then come down hard and heavy with everything else and that may favour some missions, would that make sense in that scenario?


Just to add, this would also make sense if they are / do move XV8 crisis suits to troop choice, to allow more troops to drop in and would be a good option.
Makes me think that maybe they would remove the Mont’ka and Kauyon abilities from farsight and shadowsun and give them manat strike?
Would be good to make the devilfish either assult transport or manta strike ability just so it can be used to drop troops in aswell (like a drop pop)


Personally, I'd be more in favor of a rule that allows our skimmers to Deep Strike at a cost of something like d3 mortal wounds.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 16:51:27


Post by: SemperMortis


 Aenar wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
We've not got much information to go off currently, but I do think Tau in the hands of top players will be winning tournaments with Kauyon builds. The heavier terrain density and the cagier way the best players actually play does give Kauyon some potential.

Unless Tau are pointed like Dark Eldar/Orks, then it will Montka face-rolling time for 6 months.

100% this. People who say that Kauyon is useless have no clue about playing Tau.
If there's a chance to build reliable alpha strike lists, Montka has a chance to be the optimal choice, but otherwise it's going to be Kauyon 90% of the time.
Only versus other gunlines Kauyon would make no sense, but against any army which as some melee capabilities fall back + shoot is too good to ignore.

The bonuses to damage (+1 Ap and reroll 1s to wound versus exploding 6s/5s/4s) are the icing on the cake. Too limited in range and target selection to be the rule upon which to base the entire game plan.
Nice to have when it's possible to activate them, but not crucial. What is crucial is the movement-related ability. And here Kauyon offers a lot more than Montka.


Not saying you are wrong since we literally don't have a clue yet about the codex besides a couple rules/leaks, but as of right now, with the rules we do know about, I would table a Kauyon player probably 70-80% of the time when they are hiding most of their forces in reserve.

Getting 0 benefit from your army wide special rule until Turn 3 means I get 2 full turns to decimate your army before you can realize the benefits of your rule. As I mentioned before, if I have 1500pts in your deployment zone turn 1, tying up multiple units in CC turn 1, killing multiple units in combat turn 1, what is Kauyon going to do turn 3? You might literally lose the game before they can even get on the table.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 17:17:13


Post by: Aash


New battlesuit rules previews are up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/21/punish-close-combat-forces-who-think-theyre-safe-with-codex-tau-empires-new-battlesuit-rules/

Highlights include more shots for burst rifles and flamers; jump, shoot, jump is a strategem; and a battle suit version of big guns never tire.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 17:36:41


Post by: Tawnis


I think the trick to Kauyon, might actually be not reserving your forces. This is going to be dependent on what kind of buff Tau get in their new Codex, but think about how they both pair with their strengths / weaknesses. Tau are the shooting army, regardless of what they pick they should at the very least be able to give as good as they get against other shooting armies, so then it's really melee armies we have to consider.

You can go the Mont'ka route and hit harder to remove their models off the board early, but it has the tradeoff of putting you that much closer to your enemy that is going to chop you up. The flipside of Kauyon will be whittling them down at range and when they do close on you, you get a buff that helps you finish off their forces after you take your lumps. They key being having the forces on the table to whittle them down enough. Yeah exploding 6/5/4 is great and all, but if you're reserving your units for 2 turns to get to that, you're already loosing out on the firepower doing that. I think it will work better as a force multiplier with what's left rather than something to always count on a specific unit having.

Of course, this is pretty heavily dependent on what the Tau secondaries will look like. If they still have to get in and fight in the midfield then yeah, I think Mont'ka is the way to go, but if they have a viable way of hanging back and not falling too far behind, I could see Kauyon really allowing you to flip the game on it's head in the last couple turns. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 18:02:46


Post by: Ordana


being able to shoot if locked in combat is nice. Its not nearly as good as being able to fallback and shoot with Mont'ka currently but its something atleast.

Burst Cannons going from 3 to 4 to 6 shots is a nice illustration of the power creep 40k steadily undergoes.

Not impressed by either the Multitracker or the target lock.



[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 18:07:11


Post by: Tawnis


 Ordana wrote:


Burst Cannons going from 3 to 4 to 6 shots is a nice illustration of the power creep 40k steadily undergoes.



And the absurd qty of dice needed. How does one even roll 162 shots in a reasonable manor?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 18:13:26


Post by: EightFoldPath


More sexy rules teasers https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/21/punish-close-combat-forces-who-think-theyre-safe-with-codex-tau-empires-new-battlesuit-rules/

I'm hoping these new rules will drop the MONSTER keyword from Riptides and let them use the BATTLESUIT keyword to do the same but better.

The burst cannon is 1.5x more lethal than before. The flamer is 1.57x more lethal. This is before any other new rules are added.

Re Kauyon - I think you are maybe focusing a bit too much on someone else's post about reserves. That does sound like a bad tactic against a turn one charge list. Neither I nor Aenar in his last post suggested reserving any units though. Just to check, are you aware that based on what we've seen so far and the basic rules of 9th edition:
a. Tau don't need to use any reserves to benefit from Kauyon?
b. Tau can choose how much to put in reserves after they see their opponent's list?
c. Tau can choose Montka instead of Kauyon where that would be the better choice? The article (which we all know not to fully trust) even says you can choose them after you know who is going first.

My predictions (that could all be wrong):

1. Tau will be OP on release, win plenty of tournaments and eventually get a nerf and/or be codex creeped by later codexes. PSA - do not buy 15 Piranhas if they are totally OP and then cry about it when they get nerfed ork buggy style.

2. Richard Siegler will win a major using Kauyon in the final in 2022.

3. He will also win with them after they are rightly nerfed and everyone says they can't win anymore. #justsieglerthings

4. The Tau vs melee Ork match up will favour the Tau. This one is the most bold of the predictions as it relies on the Tau points being as good as Orks and Tau keeping FTGG. But, I feel mechanically that the army that traditionally loves being charged is going to be good against "charging is my only plan" armies.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 18:19:41


Post by: Ordana


 Tawnis wrote:
 Ordana wrote:


Burst Cannons going from 3 to 4 to 6 shots is a nice illustration of the power creep 40k steadily undergoes.



And the absurd qty of dice needed. How does one even roll 162 shots in a reasonable manor?
With a dice app.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 18:40:27


Post by: dadx6


I like the changes to flamers and burst cannons. That really does make it possible to wipe an enemy army with a manta strike of crisis suits. But I still don't think you'd be able to win due to giving up the first two scoring turns (turn 2 and 3).


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 19:35:40


Post by: Valkyrie


Not complaining about the changes to the Flamers, but seems a bit odd just randomly giving them an extra 2 hits?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 19:49:49


Post by: Aenar


Regarding the Kauyon vs Montka debate: imho Kauyon is better in general because it offers a way out of the main Tau vulnerability, which is being tagged in melee (especially by chaff, sacrificial units).
I still believe this even after today's reveal that battlesuits can shoot into melee. They can do that, but the unit you are shooting at is dictated by your opponent.
Being able to fall back and shoot (almost) freely at whatever you want is key. Almost since it's done at -1 to hit.

Having to wait until turn 3 is not as big as a deal than most people think it is. If you go first, your opponent only has two turns before it kicks in.
And you don't have to keep your stuff in reserves either (which is not a smart thing to do in 9th, in general).

I'm just looking at it with the lenses I use now with the 8th ed book. What is new Kauyon giving me that I didn't have already?
- fall back + shoot armywide (vs in a 6" bubble), for three whole turns (vs one or two depending on the sept you used), albeit with the -1 to hit and turn 3 onwards limitations
- some added extra damage that I didn't have before, conditional on range and closest target so it's completely situational.
I see that and I think it's basically better than what we have now.
I don't need to reserve most of my army to benefit from it just like I don't reserve most of my army now.
Excluding a couple of Vespid units and two Remoras, I full deploy everything most of the time anyway.

Montka on the other hand could pave the way for some killy alpha strike lists. But them being possible to build depends on the whole codex, and right now we don't have the full picture.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/21 23:56:30


Post by: SemperMortis


 Aenar wrote:
Regarding the Kauyon vs Montka debate: imho Kauyon is better in general because it offers a way out of the main Tau vulnerability, which is being tagged in melee (especially by chaff, sacrificial units).
I still believe this even after today's reveal that battlesuits can shoot into melee. They can do that, but the unit you are shooting at is dictated by your opponent.
Being able to fall back and shoot (almost) freely at whatever you want is key. Almost since it's done at -1 to hit.

Having to wait until turn 3 is not as big as a deal than most people think it is. If you go first, your opponent only has two turns before it kicks in.
And you don't have to keep your stuff in reserves either (which is not a smart thing to do in 9th, in general).

I'm just looking at it with the lenses I use now with the 8th ed book. What is new Kauyon giving me that I didn't have already?
- fall back + shoot armywide (vs in a 6" bubble), for three whole turns (vs one or two depending on the sept you used), albeit with the -1 to hit and turn 3 onwards limitations
- some added extra damage that I didn't have before, conditional on range and closest target so it's completely situational.
I see that and I think it's basically better than what we have now.
I don't need to reserve most of my army to benefit from it just like I don't reserve most of my army now.
Excluding a couple of Vespid units and two Remoras, I full deploy everything most of the time anyway.

Montka on the other hand could pave the way for some killy alpha strike lists. But them being possible to build depends on the whole codex, and right now we don't have the full picture.


Again, my competitive list is 3 units of Trukk boyz, Warbikes, Deffkoptas, Kommandos and Mek Gunz. Turn 1 I have 10 units guaranteed to be in CC unless you deployed at the far end of your deployment zone, and even then its going to be close. And if you do that, i'll just cap the mid field objectives for the game and win on points.

If you don't get your army wide buff until turn 3 i'll either table you or decimate your army to the point where it is irrelevant.

Trukk Boyz move 12, disembark 3, move 5, advance D6 and Charge 2D6 for a grand total of 20 + 3D6 movement turn 1. That averages 30-31 inch movement, with reroll charge its probably closer to 33. No mans land is 18. That means I can cross the entire table turn 1. I will tie up your units. Kommandos start the game 9' from your deployment zone, they move 6, advance D6 and charge 2D6, that means they average about 7-8 inches into YOUR deployment zone. Warbikes move 14, advance 6 and can charge 2D6 so they are averaging about 9 inches into YOUR deployment zone. Deffkoptas move 14 and can shoot 2D3 rokkitz each, 1 unit of them can then Charge 3D6 the rest go 2D6. Averages 21' or 3 inches into your deployment zone and 1 unit goes 6' into your deployment zone. My backfield is Mek gunz who can harass ranged threats and can inflict some surprisingly massive dmg. So if you don't get your buff until turn 3, I will have you tied up in combat starting Turn 1 and turn 2 my Warbosses make their appearance at which point anything left alive is going to regret not dying turn 1.

Against non-competitive lists it might work, in tournament play Kauyon is DOA.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/22 00:42:05


Post by: Tyel


To be fair not all armies can flood a deployment zone like that.

As I see it the real issue with Kauyon is the opportunity cost. Montka is *very good*. There may be issues with "closest eligiable enemy unit" - but it would buff say a Rifle Fire Warrior by 55%~ versus say Intercessors. Crisis Suits with the new weapons are up 75% versus Intercessors. Or 40% versus say Boyz. If these units are pointed/synergised to be reasonable, you can see how such an increase will push them completely over the edge. Meanwhile your whole army can advance everywhere to really get on that mid-board.

The idea of getting to turn 4 or even 5 with most of your army alive is nice, but its not modern 40k. Go out there and kill stuff, because otherwise it will kill you.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/22 02:21:07


Post by: bedivere


Im just trying to figure out just how Kauyon would work.
Tau as it stood wouldn't stand much of a chance against these rush armies for the first 3-4 rounds regardless of if you setup half your force into reserves or not, so I feel that this point is mute. Especially short sighted when we know that the new codex is coming and will make tau units more survivable, particularly in melee (obvious before the release yesterday).

Also assuming that the tau units will all be dead at end of turn two and orks will have all objectives at end of turn 1 and 2 seems like a small stretch too (not impossible but would take a lot to do it and likely spend a lot of CP, if it fails then there would be little to fall back on for the orks / rushing army when everything came down).

You can probably hide a few units for the first turn and secure an objective or two, to get some points and save a few units.
Perhaps a manta strike force in the second turn in hopes that more of them last until the third turn.
Im just trying to figure out how to get the most of your army alive in the start of the third turn for Kauyon to be effective.

Especially now that the battle suit firing into engagement option is now present and the jetpack has move shoot move stratagem, I feel that it could make an ork rush harder to pull off, in particular against stealth suits that would get a big boost per points (and obviously all new tactica and startagems apply to crisis suits and the boost to the flamer hits too).

Assuming that you can use some terrain to your favour with the move shoot move.

Am now thinking that XV25 stealth suits would be good to take the homing beacon. You can start with the infiltrators ability to set them up near objectives, for a round or two you can use the move shoot move stratagem for jet packs (strike and fade to move 6” after shooting) to prolong the unit survivability.

Assuming that you go first and can use some terrain to your favour with the move shoot move.

Setup the homing beacon near an objective (9” or more away from enemy units), move towards enemy, shoot (hopefully get a few wounds) and move again towards enemy (behind cover if you can) and then use the furious assault stratagem to charge enemy units (or if they are close to the homing beacon manta strike and charge). I like that stratagem against smaller armies like space marines or maybe custodes, if your going to end up in engagement anyway (after jetpacks finish a charge move, each model in that unit can select one enemy unit within 1" of that model roll D6 and a 3+ causes 1 mortal wound to the enemy unit).

The units can also now fire in engagement with a couple of extra shots on burst cannon (not the best or what everyone was expecting as burst cannon is still AP0 and 18” range). If they do get into engagement like the above mentioned strategy, use the homing beacon and drop crisis suits in on the enemy (possibly using drop threat acquisition stratagem if needed to re-roll hit rolls, thats similar to the farsight drop zone clear stratagem to +1 to hit rolls).


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/22 04:15:24


Post by: SemperMortis


bedivere wrote:
Spoiler:
Im just trying to figure out just how Kauyon would work.
Tau as it stood wouldn't stand much of a chance against these rush armies for the first 3-4 rounds regardless of if you setup half your force into reserves or not, so I feel that this point is mute. Especially short sighted when we know that the new codex is coming and will make tau units more survivable, particularly in melee (obvious before the release yesterday).

Also assuming that the tau units will all be dead at end of turn two and orks will have all objectives at end of turn 1 and 2 seems like a small stretch too (not impossible but would take a lot to do it and likely spend a lot of CP, if it fails then there would be little to fall back on for the orks / rushing army when everything came down).

You can probably hide a few units for the first turn and secure an objective or two, to get some points and save a few units.
Perhaps a manta strike force in the second turn in hopes that more of them last until the third turn.
Im just trying to figure out how to get the most of your army alive in the start of the third turn for Kauyon to be effective.

Especially now that the battle suit firing into engagement option is now present and the jetpack has move shoot move stratagem, I feel that it could make an ork rush harder to pull off, in particular against stealth suits that would get a big boost per points (and obviously all new tactica and startagems apply to crisis suits and the boost to the flamer hits too).

Assuming that you can use some terrain to your favour with the move shoot move.

Am now thinking that XV25 stealth suits would be good to take the homing beacon. You can start with the infiltrators ability to set them up near objectives, for a round or two you can use the move shoot move stratagem for jet packs (strike and fade to move 6” after shooting) to prolong the unit survivability.

Assuming that you go first and can use some terrain to your favour with the move shoot move.

Setup the homing beacon near an objective (9” or more away from enemy units), move towards enemy, shoot (hopefully get a few wounds) and move again towards enemy (behind cover if you can) and then use the furious assault stratagem to charge enemy units (or if they are close to the homing beacon manta strike and charge). I like that stratagem against smaller armies like space marines or maybe custodes, if your going to end up in engagement anyway (after jetpacks finish a charge move, each model in that unit can select one enemy unit within 1" of that model roll D6 and a 3+ causes 1 mortal wound to the enemy unit).

The units can also now fire in engagement with a couple of extra shots on burst cannon (not the best or what everyone was expecting as burst cannon is still AP0 and 18” range). If they do get into engagement like the above mentioned strategy, use the homing beacon and drop crisis suits in on the enemy (possibly using drop threat acquisition stratagem if needed to re-roll hit rolls, thats similar to the farsight drop zone clear stratagem to +1 to hit rolls).


Turn 1: I have 30 Kommandos spread over 3 mobz, all armed with a Nob/PK and a Bomb squig. They start the game 9' from your deployment zone. On the charge they are S5 and have +1 to wound, during a WAAAGH turn (also known as turn 1) they each have 4 attacks. Lets put that into perspective. A single unit of Kommandos do on average about 10dmg to a Riptide battlesuit without using any strats or buffs. Against Crisis Suits they average 16dmg(enough to kill 5 with ease)

Turn 1 I also have 30 Trukk Boyz in your deployment zone, they aren't nearly as good as the kommandos but a squad of these guys will wreck light infantry with ease. 42 attacks, 28 hits, 18-19 wounds and 12-13 dead Firewarriors for each Mob.

Turn 1 I have 3 units of 3 warbikers racing forward, they get to either advance to guarantee an easy charge, or shoot. If they shoot they average 10 hits at S5 no AP per mob. On the charge they are just Goff boyz so 8 attacks at S5 and 5 attacks at S6 -1AP on all of them.

Turn 1 I also have 3 units of 3 Deffkoptas, they can't advance and charge so they just move 14 and let loose with 12 rokkitz on average for each squad, thats 4 hits at S8 -2AP 3dmg each. Against a riptide for example a single Skwadron of Deffkoptas average 4dmg each.

And finally, turn 1 I will have 4 mek Gunz plinking away with KMKs which do on average 2.7dmg to a riptide or 3.4dmg to a crisis suit.

So, if my orkz go first, how do the Tau units stay alive? I literally have 10+ units in CC turn 1. Turn 2 the remaining units all get stuck in, and if I need to I can use my Trukkz to tag enemy units as well or to eat overwatch. And turn 2, 3 Warbosses hop out of their trukkz and give everyone +1 to hit and start laying around with relics/warlord traits and a lot of anger issues. By the end of turn 2, my entire army except for my Mek gunz will be in your lines.

I have played this very list against Tau players and they all have conceded. One made it to turn 4 but he did so by sacrificing everything and having a devilfish make a run for it just to slow the game down and attempt to score some points for the tournament.

And, if i go 2nd you have to deal with 30 Kommandos at T5 with 3+ cover saves or T5 4+ with -1 to hit, 3 trukkz and 3 Deffkoptas with T6 and T5, both with 4+ armor saves and Ramshackle and usually out of LOS and 3 units of warbikers at T5 3W with -1 to hit, not to mention the Mek gunz at T5 ramshackle. I've weathered entire Tau shooting phases turn 1 with only minor casualties to my alphork strike list.

The only light I see for a tau player in this situation is that atm we currently do not know what the new codex has besides a couple of previews. But with what we do know as of right now, Kauyon is DOA because lists like mine exist and will absolutely wreck a Tau force which relies on having enough models left turn 3-5 to inflict noticeable dmg in ranged combat.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/22 08:10:26


Post by: Unusual Suspect


"Battlesuits are the emblems of the T’au Empire." - WarComm article

Oh no.

No no no.

NO NO NO.

...Goddamnit.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/22 16:46:44


Post by: bedivere


Side note i try not to talk about 3d printing or stls etc as nobody want GW shutting down servers.
Is it legal for STL files for none production FW or GW products, really feel that FW and GW should license these out or sell them direct?
for example if i wanted a TX7 Hammerhead Gunship (Legendary), old FW version?

This is the problem that I was trying to highlight, even with a full army on the board tau will struggle with that (codex pending), so how the fudge would Kauyon work (until ork and Drukhari get nerfed / cost more points per unit in the next FAQ), all that ork for <2000 pts.

The tau counter / similar unit to Kommandos is pathfinders stealth suits (but there are fewer of them in a unit and they cost more per model), I would probably go with a stealth suit squad and try to do the same to you with the mek guns.

Firewarriors can match the ork boys but the devil fish costs more than the ork trukk and to counter 3 of them sucks up points so I guess I wouldn't have 3 devilfish and maybe one instead (after all you are coming to me) and 4 X 10 firewarriors a couple of cadre fireblades to backup the gunlines.

Tau don’t really have a counter to warbikers (the Piranhas don’t really compare). I guess the hope here would be to use a cheap fast unit like kroot hounds and just charge the fodder in to clog up your units. Maybe supported with vespid sting wings to try to hurt them (just 2 of each for 20 hounds and 10 vespid, cant afford more). A commander in battle suit with option to manta strike in.

Again tau don’t really have Deffkoptas but instead of 3 lots of 3 I would consider spending a little extra to get 3 hammerheads (one as longstrike for a HQ), these things have had good luck for me vs Deffkoptas, skyray is tempting, especially with t he markerlight too with longstrike + seeker missile next to them, but hammerhead should do the trick and then some of the trukks or bikes after that (guess I need to buy one more to fight this list, I would love to get a forge world hammerhead, if only they still made them guess I would need to get the turret 3d printed, wish FW or GW sold STLs of the none production products).

Mek Gunzs are very cheap for what they offer…. Too cheap and too many wounds.
I would go for 4 broadsides (2 squads with 1 rail and 1 missiles + marker lights and seeker missiles)

Stealth suit squad at the front to see if they could get an early charge (with some CP to make it more leathal), yes they will die
Have on each flank, 2 Firewarriors + cadre firebladeslead by 10 hounds and backed up by 2 broadsides.
Have the 2 vespid squads and battlesuit commander in reserve to drop in where needed (where the bikes or trukks go)
Have hammerheads in the middle, clean up the copters and shoot at what ever else they can before exploding.

This is not a Kauyon tacttic and not a Kauyon build and I would end up using montka.
My point still is how would Kauyon try to fight this?
Sort of having a bunch of tanks and an infantry unit camping at back field objectives to stay alive and then drop in, on turn 2-3, all the while the enemy secures most objectives.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/22 17:17:27


Post by: Ordana


That army is over 2000 points, has 4 hq's, 4 heavy support and 4 fast attack so needs 2 detachments, the only markerlights are on the Cadre Fireblades. No drones for ablative wounds on your Broadsides so those instantly die to whatever AT your opponent has (a hammerhead is not dangerous enough to shoot first) and I don't see the damage output.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/22 20:41:04


Post by: bedivere


The ork army would also need two detachments, i took the same approach
Ork army had 6 fast attack and 2 or 4 heavy? Are mek guns 1 or 2 per unit (for sure not 4)
3 troops and transport and 3 elite
Ork army had 3-4 HQ as well - not sure on the cost of ork upgrades (haven't collected orks since 98) but i assumed it was 2000 points

what i proposed was under 2000 points (didnt go into all of the details of upgrades or all unit sizes but according to the WH app it is) and yes had two detachments
and hammerhead is weak ... but longstrike actually makes them ok if you need some long range punch (as much as tau punch). hopefully the codex will give vehicles some teeth, its a big tau weak point since the primaris vehicles started showing up.
Yes the broadsides are weak (they did have markerlight drones too), not much i can do with that for the points. Short of getting rid of the stealth suits to free up a few points

What would you take instead to try to have some sort of Kauyon benefit in the face of an ork rush?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/22 21:22:20


Post by: Ordana


There is no Kauyon benefit because against an Ork rush the game will be over by turn 3. Either the Orks are dead or the points lead is to big to matter.

I'd forget about the cadre fireblades and big firewarrior squads, they simply don't have the firepower even with buffs.
Drop the Broadsides because they are to vulnerable to AT, same but even more so with the Hammerheads, including Longstrike.

Double Riptide, one with the prototype Ion, one Burstcannon. their 3++ means they are the only thing Tau has that can live for any amount of time.
Crisis unit full of Missile Pods. Keep them and the Riptides in range of a Commander, preferably Farsight, because you will need the Mont'ka to get out of combat and keep shooting.

If the TO lets you use Kroot in a Farsight army without breaking the PA benefits then I can see a use for the Kroot Hounds as a screen. Otherwise your stuck using throwaway Breacher units. Farsight Enclave benefits, esp the BS 3 crisis unit is to good to not have.

And the acceptance that your playing an 8th edition army in a 9th edition world and that you need to be one of the best players in the world playing perfectly to have a chance at winning against a meta army with Tau.
Going second is probably a guaranteed loss, no matter what list you bring or what you do.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/23 12:08:10


Post by: bedivere


Yeah thats what I feared, and they seem to just keep pushing back the codex release because hey why not. I am also expecting that the HQ montka and Kauyon will change somehow, until the codex we dont know for sure.
(i will never throw away my longstrike, he just may be on the side lines cheering)
Im expecting that the tidewall and sniper drones will also get a boost in the new codex, but dont know what yet. I think the breacher team was confirmed to get a similar boost, again dont know yet.
So hopefully it wont be like this for long.

As you point out here the issue may be with the army played against.
For Ork you would probably want montka.
I think Kauyon maybe more affective against armies that may benefit from bunkering for a turn, like custodes do sometimes.
Ive seen custodes bunker for first turn waiting for enemy to move up or advance so that they can get in range of the weapons in turn 2 or rapid fire range and charges (think the custodes troops only have 24" rapid fire weapons or less? Even after the new rules)

I could see Kauyon being more valuable in a custodes match up, as they may sacrifice turn 1 to become save wounds from shooting attacks anyway, then you just need to survive turn 2 and then fallback in turn 3, Kauyon could be useful.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/29 21:58:24


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


Zzzap

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/12/warhammer-40k-tau-railguns-are-getting-an-upgrade-in-the-new-codex.html

Strength 14 with a -6 AP and it does D3+6 damage and ignores invulns. Also free reroll.

This is before marker lights as well.




[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/29 22:56:42


Post by: carldooley


OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
Zzzap

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/12/warhammer-40k-tau-railguns-are-getting-an-upgrade-in-the-new-codex.html

Strength 14 with a -6 AP and it does D3+6 damage and ignores invulns. Also free reroll.

This is before marker lights as well.




Well crap. There goes any reason to field my AX-1-0


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/29 23:18:06


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


Will come down to points of course but any hit reroll/markerlight shenanigans to shave up those hit odds will mean a unit of these will be dunking dreads and knights nasty fast. No idea how list building will shake up, if dumping 400-500 points into this will make sense or not and still be able to have enough to fight for objs and still screen the hammerheads.

Really hope we get viable mechanized lists


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/29 23:49:10


Post by: bedivere


I also read that the hammerhead railgun ignores invulnerable saves and when it wounds successfully, auto gets 3 mortal wounds + normal damage.

So now my anti ork army will bring back longstrike and as many hammerheads as i can lay hands on (max 3 in detachment).
Last time I was criticised for giving the same amount of detail as the ork army, and using two attachments, just like ork army, so this time more detail and crammed into one detachment.

As tau sept
Spearhead detachment
Using montka (as we have established kauyon doesn’t work against ork rush)

Longstrike, with seeker missiles (meaning he always hits, his BS is 2+ and he gets +1 to hit rolls on all hammerheads in 6”, including himself, he also gets tank ace +1 to wound rolls), he also gets 1 additional markerlight if the target he shoots at has a markerlight on it so can be nice for the seeker missiles to be hitting on 2+. basically with the new data sheet (unless longstrike changes) he will be auot hitting, with the strenght 14 cannon he will be auto wounding and with the 3 mortal +6+d3 damage he could be putting out 10-12 wounds per round that have to be saved at 72" (or a ork trukk off the board at the start) + the other hammerheads are not far behind to target more.

3 hammerheads with gun drones or burst cannons (max I can take and hit on BS 3+, plus the +1 on hit rolls if near longstrike, plus any markerlights that allow re-roll of hits, plus stratagems that do the same + targetting array + submunitions for hordes) – these should be useful again.
A sky ray gunship (for its 2 markerlights, missiles and seeker missiles)

2 full 10 man pathfinder teams (with 3 rail rifles) and one with the networked markerlights relic (changing from heavy 1 to assault 1)
3 full 12 man squads of firewarriors with pulse rifles
A cadre fireblade (gives firewarriors the extra shot in half range, 3 shots @ 18” S5 AP-1 D1)

2 squads of 3 crisis battle suits in manta strike with burst cannons, advanced targeting (to get AP-1) and drone controller (3 because of stargagem cost and cant take more that 2 in the dettachment)

The remanning 150 - 200 points go on drones supporting the troops and crisis suits, maybe a broadside unit or another sky ray


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/29 23:50:51


Post by: JNAProductions


That’s a lot of assumptions about what hasn’t changed.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/30 00:10:27


Post by: evil_kiwi_60


I’m not thrilled about the rail gun. It just doesn’t seem very fun to play against. The unit has a 4+ rerolable to hit, wounds anything without wound mitigation on at least a three up for what essentially is 9+d3 damage. It’s a real kick in the pants for factions like demons where the invul is pretty much all they get on defense. It’s one shorting anything short of a land raider with no way to stop it other than you whiffing. Unless they start pricing it at land raider rates, this is just going to be obnoxious to play against. I certainly won’t enjoy just picking up lord discordants and demon engines with every volley.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/30 00:13:34


Post by: EightFoldPath


Unlikely to come up very often in games, but fun to think about, a Kauyon'd Hammerhead could do 18+2d3 wounds to a target on later turns.

I'm not sure what the good units will be, but this 4th Tau article just adds to my feeling/prediction that Tau will be broken OP this edition.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/30 00:15:15


Post by: sanguine40k


bedivere wrote:
Blah Blah Blah


That's an awful lot of hypotheticals.

I suspect Hammerheads/longstrike will be going to BS4+/3+.

If they don't have a survivability boost, it's just more incentive for opponents to plan for alpha strikes.

We have no idea on their points and whether they will get Core.

I am dreading Markerlights going Core-locked, as anything that isn't Core at that point will be pretty much DOA if Markerlights are the main source of shooting buffs.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/30 00:21:01


Post by: Gadzilla666


The article specifically mentioned that the Hammerhead would "pair well" with Markerlights. So either its CORE, or Markerlights work for non-Core units.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/30 00:23:56


Post by: sanguine40k


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The article specifically mentioned that the Hammerhead would "pair well" with Markerlights. So either its CORE, or Markerlights work for non-Core units.


Good point! Though WarCom has been wrong about rules interactions in the past.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/31 09:05:11


Post by: bedivere


I think that is a lot of assumptions yes, but some people are also assuming that the hammerhead BS will change from 3+ to 4+.
I don’t think that will make much difference (hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/2) as most people seem to think that the longstrike ability will keep +1 to BS of hammerheads in 6” + any changes to markerlights and the affects that they have + abilities and stratagems + the re-roll for the hit roll anyway also.
It means while you only get 1 shot, the odds of hitting will likely be in your favour anyway.

(some are predicting 1 markerlight (is re-roll hits of 1) will be swapped with the 5 markerlight (+1 the hit roll), I don’t think that will happen was its too powerful for 1 markerlight).

I think that the changes will help (but not fix) the tau tidewall gunrig with the supremacy railgun (same as normal railgun but it has 2 shots and the tidewall has BS 5+.
With the re-roll the hits option this would change its shots from hitting 1/3 to 2/3, meaning you are now likely to get at least 1 hit from your two shots (before any changes to markerlights, stratagems and possible buffs that the tidewall may get). Hopefully this will also get the option for the submunitions stratagem to help with hordes.
(for the cost though I would still want to take the hammerhead instead, I like the look of the model and the idea behind it, just other thinks like montka make it a lot less useful)

Some are predicting changes now for the broadside and normal rail rifle and apparently there are changes to missiles too, just not announced yet (perhaps some will have an additional blast keyword shot profile (im looking at you seeker missile)).
So I guess the skyray may get a boost?

The changes im expecting to see is a small points reduction or changes in abilities ect for tau units like sniper drones / marksman, stealth suits) as they are still very expensive for what they offer compared to other elite units for other armies.
I was expecting a points cost reduction in piranhas + drones, but now with the changes to burst cannon and pulse carbine I would think that they are more competitive with outriders now, so wouldn't mind if they stayed as they are (haven't tested it out in play though).

None of these are included in the list other than the hammerheads, everything else has been mentioned in updates and most people assume what has not been mentioned in the list is likely to remain the same (except maybe the rail rifle, may change, also people are always talking about the crisis suits changing but I think we have seen the main change to them already).
I don’t think that the assumptions (other than hammerheads BS skill) are too much of a stretch).


Going bak to the ork rush battle:
So in that case I would be pointing the hammerheads at the ork trukks if LOS and deafkoptas if I don’t have LOS on trukks, and kommandos if it don’t have LOS on anything else (using submunitions hitting on 4+, with the 10 models and re-rolling one of the hits).

With the stats, 4 hammerheads could probably clear 3 turkks (10 wounds each X3=30) in 1 turn (hopefully explode one killing as many ork boys as possible, maybe worth spending a or two CP to force player to re-roll the explode dice just for the trolls). That should make you think twice about orks in trukks at all.
By round two you could almost take out 3X3 deafkoptas (4 wounds each X12=48) with hammerheads in one round, perhaps a bit of extra shooting with other units like pathfinders to finish them.

One unit of pathfinders further up to try to get markerlights on trukks or koptas (assuming markerlights don’t change too much).

Two fire warriors + fireblade + unit of relic pathfinders as a blob to try to deal with some / most kommandos, moving them up the board to get in half range (many dead, much dakka) or close to invite a charge (as im assuming tau sept keep the over watch hit on 5s + for the greater good).

Thats a lot of shooty (or dakka as the orks say), 25X S5 AP-1 D1 shots @ 36” and 3X S6 AP-4 DD3 @30”with at least 7 markerlights being shot.
When getting to half range 75X S5 AP-1 D1 shots @ 18” and 6X S6 AP-4 DD3 @15” with at least 7 markerlights being shot or 21X S5 AP0 D1 @13”
(+ montka may be adding 1 to AP and re-rolling wound rolls of 1 if in range; 18”, 12”, 9”. I feel that with this an ork rush may think twice in turn 1 (again just for the lols, this also applies to the hammerhead so if you rushed the deafkoptas and I rushed the hammerheads and the defkoptas (or turkks) ended up within range they got to face S14 AP-7 D3+6+3MW ignoring invlun saves …. AP-7!)

The skyray and unit of fire warriors trying to deal with war bikes or commandos.

Either manta strike the crisis suits + drones (maybe swap them for bodyguards, perhaps wait to see if codex gives bodyguard more of a boost) on war bikes, mek guns or kommandos (using the CP I saved from 1 detachment instead of 2 like the orks for crisis suit stratagems),
So that's 5 burst cannons for each unit that can be fired in engagement (30X S5 AP-1 D1 @18”) with the option to re-roll hits for the kommandos, and move shoot move for all of them.

The aim here being to get 2 or more objectives and destroy as many trukks or units as possible in the first round before then trying for more objectives, before montka wears off in turn 3. hopefully then they will have several objectives and the opposing force would not be able to have enough units to hold enough objectives and resist the remaining tau.

If you were thinking about deploying the 27X T5 W1 SV6+ kommandos 9” away from deployment (I would expect 1 or two to go for objectives instead, but perhaps you rely on war bikes, trukks, defkoptas for that). I would manta the crisis suits on mek guns.
The kommandos could be gone in the first round (montka with additional AP-1 and wound rolls of 1 re-roll) along with the 3 trukks and some ork boys. I would guess leaving 20 ish ork boys at the back/mid of play, 9 war bikes and 9 defkoptas mid field by the end of shooting turn 1 with the mekguns about to be charged at the back objectives.
End of turn 2 the mek guns, defkoptas or war bikes would be gone and perhaps some more orks, along with probably 1 pathfinders squad, maybe half of fire warriors, a tank or 2 or crisis suit squad if I were unlucky.
At the start of turn 3 you would likely have a handful of orks, mid board and some war bikes left vs 12+ fire warriors, a fireblade, 10 ish pathfinders, a tank or 2 and maybe 3 or more crisis suits + some single drones floating at you to drain war bikes shooting and stop you from moving freely.

I guess the question is now how would the orks handle tau?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/31 10:14:40


Post by: Ordana


you can't re-roll vehicle explodes or the 'roll 4+ to mortal wound' in 9th. There is a restrictive list of dice that can be re-rolled by the generic strat.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2021/12/31 13:50:11


Post by: bedivere


You are right on both accounts. but also wrong on one .... sort of.
The submunitions hitting on 4+ mortal wounds, was my mistake, had copy pasted the rules next to each other and looked like it was the same rule.

The vehicle exploding on D6 is the rule in 9th, with no CP re-roll, most people roll the dice themselves to see if the vehicle explodes.

However it much more fun if you discuss it with the player/s at the start of the match (Which is allowed, which we always do).
Spending a CP for a 1 in 6 chance is such a waste, certainly not a competition move, but it is very entertaining and the feeling everyone gets when being forced to re-roll that one dice again to find out if your own vehicle explodes.
Its a must and GW really should write it back into the rules.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/01 14:37:09


Post by: SemperMortis


bedivere wrote:


So now my anti ork army will bring back longstrike and as many hammerheads as i can lay hands on (max 3 in detachment).
Last time I was criticised for giving the same amount of detail as the ork army, and using two attachments, just like ork army, so this time more detail and crammed into one detachment.

Spoiler:
As tau sept
Spearhead detachment
Using montka (as we have established kauyon doesn’t work against ork rush)

Longstrike, with seeker missiles (meaning he always hits, his BS is 2+ and he gets +1 to hit rolls on all hammerheads in 6”, including himself, he also gets tank ace +1 to wound rolls), he also gets 1 additional markerlight if the target he shoots at has a markerlight on it so can be nice for the seeker missiles to be hitting on 2+. basically with the new data sheet (unless longstrike changes) he will be auot hitting, with the strenght 14 cannon he will be auto wounding and with the 3 mortal +6+d3 damage he could be putting out 10-12 wounds per round that have to be saved at 72" (or a ork trukk off the board at the start) + the other hammerheads are not far behind to target more.

3 hammerheads with gun drones or burst cannons (max I can take and hit on BS 3+, plus the +1 on hit rolls if near longstrike, plus any markerlights that allow re-roll of hits, plus stratagems that do the same + targetting array + submunitions for hordes) – these should be useful again.
A sky ray gunship (for its 2 markerlights, missiles and seeker missiles)

2 full 10 man pathfinder teams (with 3 rail rifles) and one with the networked markerlights relic (changing from heavy 1 to assault 1)
3 full 12 man squads of firewarriors with pulse rifles
A cadre fireblade (gives firewarriors the extra shot in half range, 3 shots @ 18” S5 AP-1 D1)

2 squads of 3 crisis battle suits in manta strike with burst cannons, advanced targeting (to get AP-1) and drone controller (3 because of stargagem cost and cant take more that 2 in the dettachment)

The remanning 150 - 200 points go on drones supporting the troops and crisis suits, maybe a broadside unit or another sky ray


As previously mentioned that is a hell of a lot of assumptions. Most notably the fact that the Hammerheads are getting a MASSIVE increase in power, and likewise will likely receive a substantial increase in cost. I think I priced your list out correctly on BS and it comes to 1,752pts. Its also illegal as previously mentioned (too many HS).

Conservatiely, a HH is currently 160pts with a railgun that does 1 shot, S10 -4 D6dmg and on a wound of 6+ D3 mortal wounds. This is getting buffed to S14, -6 D3+6 and when it does dmg it does 3 more mortals, it also gains the ability to ignore invulns. So it completely ignores armor and invulns now and went up in strength so it wounds T6 and T7 on 2s. Dmg wise it went from an average of 3.5 a turn to 11. If this likewise doesn't go up in price by at least 40pts I would be floored. So if it does go up 40 (likely going up 60) that itself is 160pts if you include longstrike. Burst cannons across the board got a big bump in value and likewise might see an increase in price, same for firewarriors etc etc etc. To assume that a Firewarrior that increased range by 20%, gained -1AP and has easy access to -2 is not going to get a price bump is hilarious. Orkz gained +1T and went up 2ppm while also losing all their strats, buffs and leadership abilities as well as their inherent +1 attack for mobz of 20+. Firewarriors likewise are probably going up to 10-11ppm.
bedivere wrote:

Going bak to the ork rush battle:
So in that case I would be pointing the hammerheads at the ork trukks if LOS and deafkoptas if I don’t have LOS on trukks, and kommandos if it don’t have LOS on anything else (using submunitions hitting on 4+, with the 10 models and re-rolling one of the hits).


This is likely a good point. A lot of people are underestimating the value of that new submunitions strat. You average 5 dead Kommandos from that little trick with no saves allowed for me. Thats 50pts right there. You would probably not want to target the koptas since I have easy access to -1 to hit and even if you hit them you can only ever kill 1, so 50pts there as well. Trukkz are currently heavily over priced at 70ppm so they wouldn't be a bad target.

bedivere wrote:
With the stats, 4 hammerheads could probably clear 3 turkks (10 wounds each X3=30) in 1 turn (hopefully explode one killing as many ork boys as possible, maybe worth spending a or two CP to force player to re-roll the explode dice just for the trolls). That should make you think twice about orks in trukks at all.
By round two you could almost take out 3X3 deafkoptas (4 wounds each X12=48) with hammerheads in one round, perhaps a bit of extra shooting with other units like pathfinders to finish them.
Honestly, if I am deploying my army and you have 4 HH's on the table i'm not putting things out in the open for easy targeting LOL and I'll damn sure make it so you have to shoot at less optimal targets with your HHs. At best i'd say you might get 2 trukkz, and the likelihood of an explosion isn't good.

As far as Deffkoptas, 4 wounds each, meaning 1 HH kills 1 Deffkopta, extra dmg from a shot does not spill over into the next target. So if you target my koptas i'll gladly give them -1 to hit and if you do hit them, you get 1 dead Kopta at 50pts as previously mentioned.

bedivere wrote:
Two fire warriors + fireblade + unit of relic pathfinders as a blob to try to deal with some / most kommandos, moving them up the board to get in half range (many dead, much dakka) or close to invite a charge (as im assuming tau sept keep the over watch hit on 5s + for the greater good).

Thats a lot of shooty (or dakka as the orks say), 25X S5 AP-1 D1 shots @ 36” and 3X S6 AP-4 DD3 @30”with at least 7 markerlights being shot.
When getting to half range 75X S5 AP-1 D1 shots @ 18” and 6X S6 AP-4 DD3 @15” with at least 7 markerlights being shot or 21X S5 AP0 D1 @13”
(+ montka may be adding 1 to AP and re-rolling wound rolls of 1 if in range; 18”, 12”, 9”. I feel that with this an ork rush may think twice in turn 1 (again just for the lols, this also applies to the hammerhead so if you rushed the deafkoptas and I rushed the hammerheads and the defkoptas (or turkks) ended up within range they got to face S14 AP-7 D3+6+3MW ignoring invlun saves …. AP-7!)


I'll gladly give you half range on the Kommandos since they are deploying 9' from deployment zone lol. So again, 12 Firewarriors in double tap range, with the Fireblade, thats 36 shots at S5 -2AP, BS 4 so 18 hits, S5 vs T5 is 9 wounds with 3 re-roll 1s for 10.5 wounds. -2AP means 5+ save so 7 dead Kommandos with all those buffs. So the 2 units of firewarriors kills 14 kommandos on average, the pathfinders I would assume are using their carbines not their markerlights. Thats 21 shots, 10.5 hits, 5.25 wounds with 1-2 rerolls for about .5 to 1 extra wound, go with 1, thats 6.25 at -1 for 3 extra dead orkz. So on average thats 17 dead Orkz, definitely not 30 dead Kommandos.

Also, and here is an important thing to remember, all of this is prefaced on the belief you get first turn, if I go first the best those units can do is overwatch, and at that point its GG. But lets keep going with the assumption you go first. So at this point you've maybe killed 1-2 trukkz, about half my Kommandos and everything else is pretty much unscathed barring explosions from the trukks if I left them exposed to HHs and they rolled poorly.

bedivere wrote:
The skyray and unit of fire warriors trying to deal with war bikes or commandos.
Warbikes are -1 to hit natively with 3 wounds at T5, they won't be in half range so firewarriors do 12 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 2dmg, so not even 1 dead Warbike. the Skyray Maybe finishes off one. I doubt you are shooting a seeker missile at a warbike

bedivere wrote:
Either manta strike the crisis suits + drones (maybe swap them for bodyguards, perhaps wait to see if codex gives bodyguard more of a boost) on war bikes, mek guns or kommandos (using the CP I saved from 1 detachment instead of 2 like the orks for crisis suit stratagems),
So that's 5 burst cannons for each unit that can be fired in engagement (30X S5 AP-1 D1 @18”) with the option to re-roll hits for the kommandos, and move shoot move for all of them.
Manta strike is turn 2 so its useless against my list. If you deploy them on the ground then yeah, likely kills the remaining kommandos. But you open yourself up to the remaining alpha strike units and the mek gunz

bedivere wrote:
The aim here being to get 2 or more objectives and destroy as many trukks or units as possible in the first round before then trying for more objectives, before montka wears off in turn 3. hopefully then they will have several objectives and the opposing force would not be able to have enough units to hold enough objectives and resist the remaining tau.
Everything you have mentioned so far except for the manta strike has you not advancing forward and just shooting. You won't have objectives besides the ones in your deployment zone. 1-2 of my trukkz will most likely be alive and you won't be in a position to advance towards midfield until at best turn 3 and thats only if I don't inflict heavy return dmg on my turn 1.

bedivere wrote:
If you were thinking about deploying the 27X T5 W1 SV6+ kommandos 9” away from deployment (I would expect 1 or two to go for objectives instead, but perhaps you rely on war bikes, trukks, defkoptas for that). I would manta the crisis suits on mek guns.
The kommandos could be gone in the first round (montka with additional AP-1 and wound rolls of 1 re-roll) along with the 3 trukks and some ork boys. I would guess leaving 20 ish ork boys at the back/mid of play, 9 war bikes and 9 defkoptas mid field by the end of shooting turn 1 with the mekguns about to be charged at the back objectives.
End of turn 2 the mek guns, defkoptas or war bikes would be gone and perhaps some more orks, along with probably 1 pathfinders squad, maybe half of fire warriors, a tank or 2 or crisis suit squad if I were unlucky.
At the start of turn 3 you would likely have a handful of orks, mid board and some war bikes left vs 12+ fire warriors, a fireblade, 10 ish pathfinders, a tank or 2 and maybe 3 or more crisis suits + some single drones floating at you to drain war bikes shooting and stop you from moving freely.

I guess the question is now how would the orks handle tau?


I deploy 30 kommandos 9' from your deployment zone and NONE go for objectives, they go balls to the wall straight into your lines and start krumpin. If you manta your crisis suits, I still have Kommandos left over unless you dedicate the rest of your aforementioned units above. Trukkz are likely fine or 1 is dead since I wouldn't be dumb enough to deploy them in LOS of your HHs. So on my turn if I go second you have to deal with 1-2 units of Trukk Boyz, 9 Warbikers, 9 deffkoptas, 1-2 trukkz, mek gunz plinking away and likely a mob of Kommandos who survived because LOS, cover, bad rolls etc. Turn 2 you are tied up in CC for hte most part and on my turn the warbosses hop out and start laying down the thunder

I really don't change my list at all to deal with your list which is likely illegal/over points when the new costs come out. And the best part, if I go first...its GG almost immediately. Good luck getting any of those shots off when tied up in CC>


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/01 15:43:21


Post by: Tyel


I wouldn't bet heavily on Tau to get points hikes. Its a faction which has been terrible all 9th, and *as a codex* have widely been considered bad outside of Riptides+Commanders+Drones... for the last 10 years? GW's thinking for those units is therefore more likely to be "these all need 9th Edition uplifting" rather than "this is a bit good and we need to be careful/nerf it into the ground".

To my mind if you were tailoring to deal with the Ork List, the answer has to be in a bubblewrap of Kroot and/or 5 man Fire Warrior squads to break up charges. If Kroot maintain their free 7" move they can potentially really block off forward-thrown Kommandos for instance. Although you have a fair amount of trash clear with the bikes, so maybe its not a guaranteed solution to the Orks going first. Obviously the viability of this will however depend on terrain and how many angles need to be blocked off.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/01 16:01:44


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


It's way way early for anyone to get into specific list hypotheticals without more info.

To be fair to GW the last few balance passes have been overall pretty good for many other factions, and the dataslate, etc being used to fine-tune busted meta builds every few months is very encouraging.

I think our issue is going to be that with Tau it will NOT be a points thing it'll be an army construction/rules thing which will have them be broken/boring af to play with/against or hopefully somewhere in the middle.

Right now we are a really fun army to paint and look at that no one wants to play against, especially when in overtuned gunline wtf bbq mode.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/01 16:27:35


Post by: bedivere


I would agree with most of the things that you have there.
Especially the koptas with the -1 to hit fly (I hate that), I feel like (assuming markerlights stay the same) get 2 markerlights on them, so that I can use the shooting models BS for seeker missiles and then use sky ray to shoot them (as it gets +1 to hit on fly) so it would be hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s. Unfortunately the skyray does not get +1 to hit rolls form longstrike like hammerheads do (hopefully and expected to remain in new codex).
(seeker missile has the 72" range but only hits on 6 but can use the shooting models BS if there are 2+ markerlights, markerliights having 36" range).

There are a few exceptions to the agreements..

Its also illegal as previously mentioned (too many HS).

The spearhead detachment allows for 3-6 Heavy Support, 0-3 Troops, 1-2 HQ and 0-2 Everything else for 3CP.
Im using 4 Heavy Support, 3 Troops, 2 HQ, 2 Elite and 2 Fast Attack
While there are the limit of 3 of the same unit in the hammerheads, the fourth one is longstrike (A HQ not a heavy support) so the detachment is very legal and has room for heavy support left (4 Hammer heads 1 Sky ray and Points depending room for another).
I deliberately left a load of points free because I don't know how much the tanks will cost in the end. So im assuming that they will cost more. (again if they do get a huge increase in costs then the forgeworld legacy unit (that wouldn't get a boost in cost) could be appealing, as they have some good weapons on the hammer heads for hordes).

To clarify the pathfinders.
I would normally add the Recon drone (ignore saving bonus for being in cover) and Gravity Wave Projector drones to the pathfinders (hoping that the Gravity Wave Projector drones get a better boost in the new codex than -D3 to enemy charge rolls starting within 12" as thats weak, would perffer D3+1 or 2 and starting within 18").. (Pulse Accelerator drone +6" range to shooting, or +3" for half range shooting is tempting but not much use against a charging army)

The markerlights on units is re-roll hits of 1 so if the target units would have at least 1 markerlight (can be got with a CP Aerial Targeting Stratagem per unit and would make sense when you have a lot of hits with extra -AP) so of the 18 misses per unit (assuming that all 12 are still shooting and none have dies), roughly 6 would be re-rolled and 3 would hit (21 hits out of 36), same goes for other shots too.

You forgot to account for the shooting of drones / burst cannons on the hammerheads + skyray (they wouldn't have long range but do just fine against the nearby infantry). You also forgot that the fireblade shoots too, but only has one normal pulse rifle :(.
The idea being the pathfinders, 2 fire warriros + cardre fireblade would be shooting at 2 kommandos (20) and the skyray and extra firewarrior unit shoots at 3rd kommando unit, no benefit from the cardre fireblade there (with hammerhead drones helping out where needed).

The crisis suits could drop just about anywhere to help out and each one would have 5 burst cannons (again I am assuming that they will cost the same / roughly the same, but may switch between battle suit and bodyguard depending on points overall).

There are still a lot of assumptions along the lines of all units get to line up and march head on with no diagonal moment (increases distance), blocks in moment or terrain (increases distance like barricades or moving around objects), and that you could get 3 truks up field next to each other side by side on open flat terrain and then charge out with no bottlenecks or blocks.
It also seems to assume that while there is no terrain blocking some units form charging then there is terrain for kommandos to hide and get bonus to save? I could also assume that some of my infantry are on the third floor of a building, just to make charging more difficult.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/01 20:16:50


Post by: SemperMortis


Tyel wrote:
I wouldn't bet heavily on Tau to get points hikes.


Ork Big Mekz with Shokk Attack Gun were mediocre in 8th. When upgraded to have a Relic which DOUBLED their RoF they averaged 7 shots hitting on 5s at S7 -4(or 5 can't remember) AP and D6 dmg. This was considered to be too amazing for orkz to have and GW nerfed it with a MASSIVE increase in price. If you think a gun is going to go up 4 strength, 2AP and go from 3.5 average dmg to 11 and not receive a massive increase in price you are either right and GW is moronic or you are horribly wrong and the base price is going to go up drastically. I mean, GW is learning that D3+3 lascannons are too powerful, so why the hell would they take that and go "DOUBLE THE DMG AND THEN SOME!" and not give it a price hike?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/01 21:07:41


Post by: Tyel


SemperMortis wrote:
Ork Big Mekz with Shokk Attack Gun were mediocre in 8th. When upgraded to have a Relic which DOUBLED their RoF they averaged 7 shots hitting on 5s at S7 -4(or 5 can't remember) AP and D6 dmg. This was considered to be too amazing for orkz to have and GW nerfed it with a MASSIVE increase in price. If you think a gun is going to go up 4 strength, 2AP and go from 3.5 average dmg to 11 and not receive a massive increase in price you are either right and GW is moronic or you are horribly wrong and the base price is going to go up drastically. I mean, GW is learning that D3+3 lascannons are too powerful, so why the hell would they take that and go "DOUBLE THE DMG AND THEN SOME!" and not give it a price hike?


I don't want to turn this into an Orks sob story - but I'm pretty sure the Ork Codex was drafted by a team with relatively little understanding of the game, or Orks, only what certain competitive players (and the wider public) were saying. So GW didn't hear "this relic with Deathskulls is amazing" - they heard "Shokk Attack Gun too good". So they scrapped the relic and hiked the points. Boyz were menacing the meta? Well they can have T5 and a point of AP as their 9th Edition upgrade, but we are upping the points and scrapping the stratagems that made them so good and morale is a thing now. Remember those 3 months of people sending us emails whinging about Lootas? We better make sure nothing like that happens again - etc.

By contrast though, and its a bit hard for me to track the historical points cost over time (but I think I've got the right MFM) - didn't the Squigbuggy get a 20 point reduction in the codex (going 110->90) and approaching 3~ times as much shooting? Which maybe went too far - but it clearly sucked before. The Scrapjet likewise went down 20 points - but would get on average 2 extra rocket shots (or 3 with blast) and a bag more big shoota shots in close range.

No one was saying the Hammerhead was a problem before. The problem was the other way - its an iconic Tau Model, and its been in the deep freeze for ages due to being rubbish. They are therefore a prime target for GW to massively overbuff. Maybe it is moronic - but I think its fairly standard practice.
1. It sucked before so it needs a buff.
2. It also needs the 9th edition "everything does about 50% more damage than 8th for reasons".
Combine the two together and yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if you get to basically where you are for give or take the same points. Unless there's more to the unit.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/01 21:07:49


Post by: Ordana


SemperMortis wrote:
Tyel wrote:
I wouldn't bet heavily on Tau to get points hikes.


Ork Big Mekz with Shokk Attack Gun were mediocre in 8th. When upgraded to have a Relic which DOUBLED their RoF they averaged 7 shots hitting on 5s at S7 -4(or 5 can't remember) AP and D6 dmg. This was considered to be too amazing for orkz to have and GW nerfed it with a MASSIVE increase in price. If you think a gun is going to go up 4 strength, 2AP and go from 3.5 average dmg to 11 and not receive a massive increase in price you are either right and GW is moronic or you are horribly wrong and the base price is going to go up drastically. I mean, GW is learning that D3+3 lascannons are too powerful, so why the hell would they take that and go "DOUBLE THE DMG AND THEN SOME!" and not give it a price hike?
For the same reason that they buff and nerf DE in the same emergency balance update but only nerf Admech.
They are ineffable (or just plain clueless).

You can't point at at them doing X for army Y and then use that as a basis for what they will do to army Z because GW repeatedly makes it clear the don't work like that.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/01 21:18:48


Post by: bedivere


I am expecting some kind of possible points buff.
Tau needed a heavy hitting tank. They only have 2. The skyray and the hammerhead.
Put any of those against a repulsor executioner and they would loose big time.

When comparing it to those vehicles,they get a bunch of extra stuff and weapons and cost a lot more. The weapon on that thing is kinda similar to the new tau gun. (Think S12 AP a lot and D is D3+ more. I know it fires more than one shot too, will have to look it up).

If you strip it all the other things the SM repulsor executioner gets I would guess they would put tau hammerhead at 200pts total (including drones), maybe a little more.
If they were to add a big boost to points I would expect it to do more like transport etc.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/02 00:57:40


Post by: ccs


 carldooley wrote:
OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
Zzzap

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/12/warhammer-40k-tau-railguns-are-getting-an-upgrade-in-the-new-codex.html

Strength 14 with a -6 AP and it does D3+6 damage and ignores invulns. Also free reroll.

This is before marker lights as well.




Well crap. There goes any reason to field my AX-1-0


Why? I didn't see any reference to the HH now being a flyer.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/02 01:20:51


Post by: bedivere


I do like the way the HH is able to 'hover' (fly) over the infantry. Drones make sense, but a tank skimming over the tiny tau's heads while gunz a blazing must be terrifying.
I certainly feel like these will be good units to take into the feild and will make tau a good offensive option to plink away and other vehicles (or even infantry units with the submunitions option), something that has been lacking for a while.
Now we can fianally take on some SM tanks, from the evil repulsor executioner to the more comparable gladiators.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/02 21:58:26


Post by: SemperMortis


bedivere wrote:
I am expecting some kind of possible points buff.
Tau needed a heavy hitting tank. They only have 2. The skyray and the hammerhead.
Put any of those against a repulsor executioner and they would loose big time.

When comparing it to those vehicles,they get a bunch of extra stuff and weapons and cost a lot more. The weapon on that thing is kinda similar to the new tau gun. (Think S12 AP a lot and D is D3+ more. I know it fires more than one shot too, will have to look it up).

If you strip it all the other things the SM repulsor executioner gets I would guess they would put tau hammerhead at 200pts total (including drones), maybe a little more.
If they were to add a big boost to points I would expect it to do more like transport etc.


Take any ork heavy vehicle and compare it to the executioner or this HH...orkz lose every single time be nice if GW realized that 5+ to hit is kind of a big problem for ranged attacks and the answer isn't to make it worse, its to either give it more shots or some kind of other buffs. The fact that the gunwagon is worse somehow then before is mind blowing.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/03 08:13:39


Post by: bedivere



Take any ork heavy vehicle and compare it to the executioner or this HH...orkz lose every single time be nice if GW realized that 5+ to hit is kind of a big problem for ranged attacks and the answer isn't to make it worse, its to either give it more shots or some kind of other buffs. The fact that the gunwagon is worse somehow then before is mind blowing.


Im not saying orks don’t need a big gun tank to take on the SM Repulsor Executioner, lets call it a Supa-kannon (Kannonwagon, 170pts movment 12” 60" Heavy 2D6 S8 AP-2 D3, Blast (total damage output = 2 – 36)

Repulsor Executioner (Heavy laser destroyer 72" Heavy 2 S12 AP-4 D D3+3 (damage = 8-)12)

To sit there and cry orks are as bad as tau is just trolling.
Ok I will take ork as an example

Ork have 11 heavy support options from GW (+1 legacy option, big guns, ... used to have that one myself decades ago when I collected orks + Orks get a bunch of FW options, see the first ork example).

Tau have 4 .... 4! that is it ... and that includes the sniper drones (which are one of, if not the worst sniper unit in the game and for sure will be getting a buff or points reduction). There are some FW options for kroot calvary, more heavy gun drones and a legacy option for the hammerhead turret.

A lot of the ork weapons have heavy DX for the number of shots to take, meaning that while you have higher BS5+ to hit, you tend to get a lot more shots to test it, plus the blast rule that means that you auto max the values on hordes is silly and just not the random ork army I fell in love with decades ago. (edit: just to clarify i do not still collect orks and left them many years agin, started with the do not step on pointy buggers from 2nd and left in 4th)
If like tau or SM you only have 1 or 2 shots then you will NEED a lower BS to hit.
The examples of orks here is heavy D6 and 2D6 against tau with 5X 12 model units = 6 & 12 shots hitting on 5+ (4 & 8 hits), both examples are S8 and D6 D3 damage (average 14 & 16 damage) assuming the hits go though on 2+, weak tau infantry, then that's a lot of damage.

Some of these Ork options have a lot higher damage outputs to the tau
Even your Mekguns that you have used in your list have higher possible max damage outputs (especially with blast on full tau infantry units giving max values), and they can be taken in squads and still cost less than the tau options!
1 Mekgun - Kustom mega-kannon 45pts 36" Heavy D6 S8 AP-3 D D6 (damage = 1-36)

Looking at the tau guns, maximum possible damage output before codex changes;
– Broadside --
Heavy rail rifle 60" Heavy 2 S8 AP-4 D D6 (damage = 2-12)
High-yield missile pod 36" Heavy 4 S7 AP-1 D D3 (damage = 4-12)
– Hammerhead --
Ion cannon -
Standard 60" Heavy 3 S7 AP-2 D2 (damage = 3-6)
Overcharge 60" Heavy D6 S8 AP-2 D D3 (damage = 1-18)
Railgun -
Solid shot 72" Heavy 1 S10 AP-4 D D6 (damage = 1-6 (possibly 9))
(+wound roll 6+ = D3 mortal wounds + normal damage)
Submunitions 72" Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 D1 (damage = 1-6)


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/03 15:13:59


Post by: SemperMortis


bedivere wrote:

Im not saying orks don’t need a big gun tank to take on the SM Repulsor Executioner, lets call it a Supa-kannon (Kannonwagon, 170pts movment 12” 60" Heavy 2D6 S8 AP-2 D3, Blast (total damage output = 2 – 36)

Repulsor Executioner (Heavy laser destroyer 72" Heavy 2 S12 AP-4 D D3+3 (damage = 8-)12)

To sit there and cry orks are as bad as tau is just trolling.

Repulsor Executioner, you gave it the upgrade from its normal gun...not sure why but lets look into the build you suggested. For starters, it has incredibly easy access to re-roll 1s to hit from a host of characters and other options. But lets not include those either. Natively its BS3 but has +1 to hit for its main gun, so that HLD is hitting 1.66 times against T8 its wounding 1.11x and against the normal 3+ armor save its going straight through and doing 5.55dmg on average. That is without any buffs of any kind. The Plasma incinerator against that target will super charge and get 3.5 shots, 2.91 hits, (1/6 chance to hurt itself) and at S9 its wounding on 3s just like the laser destroyer, it also has -4 AP so it works out to 1.94 wounds and 5.83dmg. So slightly higher dmg on average But, that also forgets about the Fragstorm grenade launcher, the Heavy Onslaught gatling cannon, the storm bolter, the twin heavy bolter and the twin icarus ironhail heavy stubber. But lets just ignore those entirely as well because the Kannon wager is significantly cheaper than the Executioner.

The Kannonwagon gets 2D6 shots which works out to 7 on average, 3.5 hits, 1.75 wounds, 1.16 unsaved wounds for 3.5dmg a turn on average. So at half the cost it does less dmg but if you include the plethora of extra guns that the Executioner has the math quickly goes in favor of it and to a large margin. Ironically, the Executioner isn't taken either because its considered noncompetitive

bedivere wrote:
Ok I will take ork as an example

Ork have 11 heavy support options from GW (+1 legacy option, big guns, ... used to have that one myself decades ago when I collected orks + Orks get a bunch of FW options, see the first ork example).

Tau have 4 .... 4! that is it ... and that includes the sniper drones (which are one of, if not the worst sniper unit in the game and for sure will be getting a buff or points reduction). There are some FW options for kroot calvary, more heavy gun drones and a legacy option for the hammerhead turret.


OMG! Are you saying that the faction that has been around since literally Rogue trader has more options than the Tau who have only been around since 2001? My god, how unfair. Lets take a look at Ork heavy support choices. Technically, in battlescribe orkz have 17 choices Big Gunz and Lifta Wagon are Legends though, so down to 15. The Big Trakk, kanonwagon, mega dread, meka-dread and Squiggoth are FW options and insanely expensive. GW decided to break the Battlewagon from 1 option into 3. Gunwagon, Bonebreaker and Battlewagon are the same model with different weapon loadouts. Out of all those options, competitively we have Mek Gunz, Killrigs and maybe hunta rig/deff dreadz but I would argue those last 2 aren't competitive. Regardless, the main point was Orkz have been around since Day 1 of Rogue Trader, Tau only came out 20 years ago.

bedivere wrote:
A lot of the ork weapons have heavy DX for the number of shots to take, meaning that while you have higher BS5+ to hit, you tend to get a lot more shots to test it, plus the blast rule that means that you auto max the values on hordes is silly and just not the random ork army I fell in love with decades ago. (edit: just to clarify i do not still collect orks and left them many years agin, started with the do not step on pointy buggers from 2nd and left in 4th)
If like tau or SM you only have 1 or 2 shots then you will NEED a lower BS to hit.
The examples of orks here is heavy D6 and 2D6 against tau with 5X 12 model units = 6 & 12 shots hitting on 5+ (4 & 8 hits), both examples are S8 and D6 D3 damage (average 14 & 16 damage) assuming the hits go though on 2+, weak tau infantry, then that's a lot of damage.

Some of these Ork options have a lot higher damage outputs to the tau
Even your Mekguns that you have used in your list have higher possible max damage outputs (especially with blast on full tau infantry units giving max values), and they can be taken in squads and still cost less than the tau options!
1 Mekgun - Kustom mega-kannon 45pts 36" Heavy D6 S8 AP-3 D D6 (damage = 1-36)

Looking at the tau guns, maximum possible damage output before codex changes;
– Broadside --
Heavy rail rifle 60" Heavy 2 S8 AP-4 D D6 (damage = 2-12)
High-yield missile pod 36" Heavy 4 S7 AP-1 D D3 (damage = 4-12)
– Hammerhead --
Ion cannon -
Standard 60" Heavy 3 S7 AP-2 D2 (damage = 3-6)
Overcharge 60" Heavy D6 S8 AP-2 D D3 (damage = 1-18)
Railgun -
Solid shot 72" Heavy 1 S10 AP-4 D D6 (damage = 1-6 (possibly 9))
(+wound roll 6+ = D3 mortal wounds + normal damage)
Submunitions 72" Heavy D6 S6 AP-1 D1 (damage = 1-6)


Have to be honest, I absolutely abhor the way you did this. Min/max dmg is useless information. Technically a Stompa has enough firepower to level an entire army in a single turn. Its deffkannon alone could theoretically do 108dmg Does that make it good or useful? No. 108 is the max possible dmg, the better metric to measure a gun by is AVERAGE dmg. Max dmg for the deffkannon is 108, average is....8.16 against T6-T8 with 3+ armor. I think 100 less dmg then its max is a slightly important note to make in regards to the data you are pushing above. Max dmg is useless.

To use a unit you specifically mentioned, the KMK Mek gun. max dmg is 36, it AVERAGES 3.5 shots, 1.75 hits, against T5-7 thats 1.16 wounds and against a 3+ save its 3.4dmg on average. Or 1/10th-11th (ish) the max dmg.

Now lets compare it to those Tau weapons you mention.
Heavy Rail Rifle: Max 12, averages... 2.3 against T5-7 and that doesn't include the possibility of the mortal wound on a 6. about 1/5th the max.

And of course none of this factors in the regular buffs these units are getting. A shooty ork list tends to get +1 to hit from Freeboota kulture, sadly our best shooting units can't utilize this, Kannon wagonz, Stompas, Mek gunz, hell even Tankbustas can't use it against their target of choice (vehicles). On the flipside, Tau get re-roll 1s, ignores cover, +1 shots etc etc etc. Your analysis will never be worth much if you compare max dmg to max dmg. The better metric is average vs average and the even better metric is average with normal buffs + average with normal buff. And final note, I have to point out that nobody is bringing hordes these days in competitive games so saying 2D6 maxes out or whatever else isn't true because it doesn't happen. Most common opponents are SM and they for the most part can't even field units which would fall into the 11+ category in order to trigger this. Nor would custodes, Sisters etc etc. Hordes are pretty much dead in 9th thanks to the new rules. As a competitive note to you, thats why you shouldn't field Firewarriors in squads of 12, just cut the last 2 off and save yourself the hassle of extra losses because of dumb rules.



[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/03 22:03:49


Post by: OneBoxForOptimism


I think we are straying very far from 'how to fix Tau in the new Codex' with these hypothetical matchups. You'll get plenty of ork/tau fights in a few months don't worry.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/04 01:59:00


Post by: SemperMortis


OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
I think we are straying very far from 'how to fix Tau in the new Codex' with these hypothetical matchups. You'll get plenty of ork/tau fights in a few months don't worry.


I don't think its straying very far at all. We are talking about theoretical weapon damages. He is using MAX dmg as an example of why shooting is fine for Orkz but needs a bump for Tau. I'm pointing out that this isn't the case

There is a reason Tau suck in 9th, and its not because there shooting isn't good. Its because they have no ability to seize central objectives without giving away their biggest army benefit, Range.

Basic Tau firewarrior just got a buff of 6' range and -1AP on its basic rifle. How many other factions can field a basic troops choice that is shooting at 36' range at S5 -1AP? not to many I would wager and if you do give up that range buff to stay closer to the deployment line, you can get a double and/or triple tap (fireblade) with those guys from 18' range. Going back to theoretical dmg, a unit of 12 firewarriors could theoretically put out 36dmg a turn And if you choose Kauyon (you lose) and survive to turn 3, you could theoretically get 72dmg


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/04 12:32:46


Post by: madtankbloke


Interesting thoughts so far for sure. The current Tau codex is not the best in the current edition (close to the worst), and it is not strictly due to any inherent points inefficiencies when compared to more recent releases, but more due to the fact that Tau are really quite bad at holding objectives. Tau can take objectives quite easily, they have some really good weapons for doing that, and the interplay between units, markerlights and stratagems means you can quickly neuter a lot of defences enemy units might have.

What I would like to see, although I currently have no idea how it could be implemented in a balanced way (lots of ways it could be implemented in an unbalanced way though...) is for the Tau scoring on primaries to be different from everyone else. Its established in the fluff that Tau do not seek to hold ground, just use it to kill the enemy, and they see no dishonour in giving up ground if it allows them to do so.

I would also like to see the markerlights revamped, as it currently stands there are 2 results (1 and 5) that you will want to use almost all the time, and 3 that are situational, to the point where often you will, as a tau player given the points investment required to get 5 markerlights on something, simply stop at 1. and Farsight enclaves mean that even this is not strictly required given their sub-faction bonus.

While I personally loved Jetpacks from their introduction, the JSJ on loads of units is something that was really annoying for your opponent to deal with and i can understand why it was removed as an ability. I can't imagine GW would be silly enough to ever reintroduce a similar rule on a wide scale.

To follow on from the Orks v Tau segue, facing, and countering, point and click rush armies are something that every player will have to deal with at some point, and there are plenty of tools that can be used to help against them. There is a 25% chance that a rush army can win deployment AND first turn, and in those cases it can be an uphill battle, but more likely the Rush army will only win one, and of course there is the 25% chance they will lose both deployment and first turn. Stealth suits can infiltrate and deny areas of the board for enemy infiltrators, block movement routes for fast units meaning the enemy can be dealt with piecemeal, Remoras are super useful at moving up and blocking routes as well (and scoring secondaries).

In the event you were to get first turn against 30 Kommandos 9 inches away from you, if you can't deal with 33 T5 6+ wounds in range of your whole army, then you have bigger problems. Cover bonuses can be easily dealt with. 3 markerlights, multi spectral sensor suite and Smart missiles are all things you can use. 10 Breachers shooting alone can kill most of a squad of kommandos (FE & a couple of markerlight hits).

In the 1 in 4 games against rush armies where they get to control deployment and get first turn, then any Tau force is in for a world of hurt, regardless of whether they are Orks or any other flavour of point and click army. In those situations you need to super concentrate on getting secondaries and slowing up the enemy as much as possible. its a great way to practice your screening for sure, and if you somehow manage to survive the first few turns, then you should be able to get 15 primaries in your last turn, and anything you get before that is certainly a bonus.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/04 12:36:41


Post by: bedivere


I never liked the GW rules on overcharge, it should result in either a broken weapon (cant shoot with that again) or more MW to the unit than 1 (ie like splash damage in 1 wound infantry with plasma), should be more intensive to stick to the standard profile and more strategic to use it.
I mention this as this the only way most tau get blast, with ion cannons, on the few units that get ion cannons.

I would like to get more blast keywords, other than on a few ion cannon guns (like everything on orks seems to have), or grenades that do stuff rather than make pretty lights. Perhaps some missile attacks should get blast? (am glaring at the seeker missile on that one, as well as other missile attacks). It would certainly help when facing horde armies (like they get when facing tau).

Perhaps to also make kroot melee killy and chargeable (but still weak so not OP, currently S3 T3) but put a limit on the number of kroot that can be taken with tau (similar to new sisters rule about not bringing more of the new unit than battle sisters squads), so you still need a tau gun line. That way tau still have to use the gun line to shoot, but kroot can get in and push a weaken target (from the shooting) off an objective?
(Give kroot more than 1 attack and any AP would be good and perhaps more that S+1 to melee), still they are cheap though

Im still thinking GW as forgotten about kroot and vespid.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/10 18:47:18


Post by: EightFoldPath


From leaked instruction manual:

New Pulse Blaster profiles (just 2 now)
Assault 2 14" S5 AP1 D1
Assault 2 8" S6 AP2 D1

Strikes/Breachers +1 leadership.
Drones +2" movement.
Shield drones +1 wound.

From the support turrets:
Missile pod Assault 2 30" S7 AP2 D2
SMS Heavy 4 S5 AP1 D1


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/10 18:53:12


Post by: Tawnis


bedivere wrote:
I never liked the GW rules on overcharge, it should result in either a broken weapon (cant shoot with that again) or more MW to the unit than 1 (ie like splash damage in 1 wound infantry with plasma), should be more intensive to stick to the standard profile and more strategic to use it.
I mention this as this the only way most tau get blast, with ion cannons, on the few units that get ion cannons.

I would like to get more blast keywords, other than on a few ion cannon guns (like everything on orks seems to have), or grenades that do stuff rather than make pretty lights. Perhaps some missile attacks should get blast? (am glaring at the seeker missile on that one, as well as other missile attacks). It would certainly help when facing horde armies (like they get when facing tau).

Perhaps to also make kroot melee killy and chargeable (but still weak so not OP, currently S3 T3) but put a limit on the number of kroot that can be taken with tau (similar to new sisters rule about not bringing more of the new unit than battle sisters squads), so you still need a tau gun line. That way tau still have to use the gun line to shoot, but kroot can get in and push a weaken target (from the shooting) off an objective?
(Give kroot more than 1 attack and any AP would be good and perhaps more that S+1 to melee), still they are cheap though

Im still thinking GW as forgotten about kroot and vespid.


My hope, even if they miss it in the codex release is that Kroot get updated when they finally get included in a Kill Team set (which I do think is fairly likely eventually). Though Kroot seem particually well suited to being creatively used in Crusade (or Krootsade if you will ) so I haven't given up on all hope for everything yet. Fingers crossed.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/14 10:55:22


Post by: Breton


OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
Sounds like we are getting a new Codex next year, but how would -you- all fix Tau to be able to reasonably play the mission in 9th Edition?

My take:

Tau need to avoid the worst extremes of the triptide drone castle nonsense from previous eras and return to 'highly mobile fire teams' in the lore. They need to be able to compete with the other armies over objectives and not have the 'best' builds be immobile gunlines (boring!)

+Crisis Suits could be troops, and able to be the core of your army if you want
+Jump Shoot Jump or similar should be a thing. IF we don't have any possible melee and psychic options then we need something to counterbalance those gaps
+Assault Transports / Fish of Fury: having a ton of transports running around disgorging fragile breachers for point blank shenanigans (but how do we make this distinct from Druks?)
+Melee Crisis Suits: There's no reason anime gundam suits shouldn't have big 'ole laser swords to help compete in the 9th era

I think it would just be more 'fun' for both Tau players and opponents if we had more opportunities to play to the 9th edition ruleset and get in there and mix it up instead of the old giant drone castle builds.

What are you all's hopes for the new Tau Codex?


Its been a while since I checked but as I recall Tau have one of the lowest points per Troop (ObSEc) choice lists And it lands in the worst part of no-man's-land. Its really taking it from both ends to be too small to be durable, and too big to avoid a blast. The main rules have dramatically improved on "forcing" the mission but the army lists/books are still way behind. Playing the mission was incentivised. Making the list has not been. They've certainly laid some interesting ground work for things - between keywords, and strats. Imagine introducing some sort of mechanic that results in essentially 0 point strats to synergize troop choices with toy choices in a way that makes you want to take the troop choices and work with them. Say - you need to have 1 point to use 0 point strats, but they still don't cost a point - and in this case troop choice A gets plus accuracy if Fast Attack Choice B is closer to and targeting (Enemy Units) than Troop Choice A. - I don't know Tau as well as other armies but imagine Hormugants getting a movement boost from having gargoyles closer to the enemy unit they're moving towards, while Termagants would get an extra shot or something. At the same time those gargoyles would get a small boost for the Gants/gaunts. Similar to the Formations of back a ways but all pretty low powered 1-2 combo things all based around a Troops Choice. Sort of turn Troops into a Build-A-Bear with strats.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/14 13:18:53


Post by: bedivere


Well the new rules for the Stormsurge have been released for the Pulse blastcannon, it sounds like a heavy hitter.
I recall they said the rail gun was not the most powerful upgraded weapon in the codex so im looking forward for the Pulse driver cannon stats.
Am sure that will be the most powerful weapon upgraded in the new codex.
Stabilising Anchors now let you re-roll the hit roll (instead of +1).
This goes to making it all more leathal.

Counterfire defense system (guessing a suit upgrade that can be taken on some things) can reduce damage taken in the enemy shooting phase, giving more durability.
I think this is just for the Stormsurge but still makes it more durable.

Hopefully we see some durability boost to crisis suits
or better yet some mention of the alien aux that tau have access to (kroot and vespid and maybe more?).


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/14 14:12:52


Post by: Ordana


bedivere wrote:
Well the new rules for the Stormsurge have been released for the Pulse blastcannon, it sounds like a heavy hitter.
I recall they said the rail gun was not the most powerful upgraded weapon in the codex so im looking forward for the Pulse driver cannon stats.
Am sure that will be the most powerful weapon upgraded in the new codex.
Stabilising Anchors now let you re-roll the hit roll (instead of +1).
This goes to making it all more leathal.

Counterfire defense system (guessing a suit upgrade that can be taken on some things) can reduce damage taken in the enemy shooting phase, giving more durability.
I think this is just for the Stormsurge but still makes it more durable.

Hopefully we see some durability boost to crisis suits
or better yet some mention of the alien aux that tau have access to (kroot and vespid and maybe more?).
The Pulse Blastcannon is the 'most powerful weapon'. The Pulse Driver is the (slightly) weaker long range weapon for the Stormsurge.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/01/16 07:36:34


Post by: bedivere


I wasnt sure how much strength the Driver Cannon was going to have and before it was Heay d6 with d6 damage.
Just saw the update from spikybits yesturday (if to be believed),
The Stormsurge costs 330 pts (now cheaper than the Repulsor Executioner?!)

Pulse Blastcannon is the more expensive weapon ( i suspect this has gone up ni points to cover the 5 point reduction).
Focused -Heavy 2, S16, AP-4, dmg 12.
Dispersed -Heavy 6, S12, AP-2, dmg 4.

Driver Cannon is Heavy 3d3, S10, AP-4, dmg 3, Blast.
Cluster Rockets retain Blast ability. Built-in 4++.

Driver cannon is still tough then. and now doin between 3 and 9 shots (instead of 1-6) and each does 3 damage (instead of D6), I was expecting something a bit like hammerhead like D3+2 damage, but was not expecting on average 6 shots.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/15 19:38:22


Post by: EightFoldPath


EightFoldPath wrote:
My predictions (that could all be wrong):

1. Tau will be OP on release, win plenty of tournaments and eventually get a nerf and/or be codex creeped by later codexes. PSA - do not buy 15 Piranhas if they are totally OP and then cry about it when they get nerfed ork buggy style.

2. Richard Siegler will win a major using Kauyon in the final in 2022.

3. He will also win with them after they are rightly nerfed and everyone says they can't win anymore. #justsieglerthings

4. The Tau vs melee Ork match up will favour the Tau. This one is the most bold of the predictions as it relies on the Tau points being as good as Orks and Tau keeping FTGG. But, I feel mechanically that the army that traditionally loves being charged is going to be good against "charging is my only plan" armies.

So prediction 1 took a single week of tournament results to get going... They already look absolutely busted, and I saw other players at my tournament stumbling around in a daze muttering about ABFPs. I guess we never know with GW and nerfs though. WIll they hit Tau alongside Tyranids and Custodes, or release Eldar to make us forget about these three? Good news is there doesn't seem to be anything like ork buggies that will get spammed to the max then nerfed, seems to be mainly balanced lists of a wide variety of broken datasheets for now, but watch out over the next few weeks as people work out what is the best of the best, and also magnetise those Crisis suits as some of the guns won't be staying at 5 points for long.

Prediction 2 looks a bit shakier. The issue being Montka is just so good. I think I might need a nerf to be gifted from GW to Montka to stand a chance of making this one. Prediction 3 still looks good based on LVO.

Prediction 4, any melee focused Orks able to weigh in on how hard the new Tau match up is right now? Do you charge in and murder them or do they cheaply screen you out and gun you down with their insanely priced guns?


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/15 20:07:21


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Considering Custodes are yet to actually win a major outright, despite their top showings, I don't believe Custodes will suffer any major changes. That being said, Tau are basically Castellans of 8th, and need to be smote. Eldar being even close to OP is good for the game, as they have been borderline broken for all of 9th, and deserve at least 1 day of reckoning.

All the strength of Tau however can still be undone by strong dedicated shooting (Eradicators/Hellblasters/HB squads) There is nothing really scary other than the fact that they can turn 1 shoot an entire army off a table, currently. Expect their damage and range to get nerfed.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/15 20:14:12


Post by: VladimirHerzog


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Considering Custodes are yet to actually win a major outright, despite their top showings, I don't believe Custodes will suffer any major changes. That being said, Tau are basically Castellans of 8th, and need to be smote. Eldar being even close to OP is good for the game, as they have been borderline broken for all of 9th, and deserve at least 1 day of reckoning.

All the strength of Tau however can still be undone by strong dedicated shooting (Eradicators/Hellblasters/HB squads) There is nothing really scary other than the fact that they can turn 1 shoot an entire army off a table, currently. Expect their damage and range to get nerfed.


no, feth that, i do NOT want my eldar to be broken, this "i deserve to be OP because i sucked" mentality has to die


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/15 20:30:50


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Considering Custodes are yet to actually win a major outright, despite their top showings, I don't believe Custodes will suffer any major changes. That being said, Tau are basically Castellans of 8th, and need to be smote. Eldar being even close to OP is good for the game, as they have been borderline broken for all of 9th, and deserve at least 1 day of reckoning.

All the strength of Tau however can still be undone by strong dedicated shooting (Eradicators/Hellblasters/HB squads) There is nothing really scary other than the fact that they can turn 1 shoot an entire army off a table, currently. Expect their damage and range to get nerfed.


no, feth that, i do NOT want my eldar to be broken, this "i deserve to be OP because i sucked" mentality has to die


Too late. Weaver of Fates dice is broken. Auto 6s? Yeah. Good luck. Right now a GSC hand weapon made of garbage and spit does more damage then a Custodes' axe. Beat that with a nerf bat.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/15 21:01:29


Post by: SemperMortis


EightFoldPath wrote:


Prediction 4, any melee focused Orks able to weigh in on how hard the new Tau match up is right now? Do you charge in and murder them or do they cheaply screen you out and gun you down with their insanely priced guns?


I'll reserve judgement until I get a few games in against them. But as it stands I think my Alphork strike is now just a swing list against Tau. If I go first I have relatively high confidence I will win. If I go second it is entirely dependent upon the level of shenanigans that occur. Tau got a lot of new tricks they can pull the biggest saving grace as far as I can see though is that the highest performing Tau lists go heavily into anti-shooting screens rather than anti-Melee screens. The top list at the Beachhead brawl had 2 units of Kroot and a unit of dogs. that was it as far as screening units went. On the other hand, his list also had not 1, not 2 but 18 Shield drones. A solid 10% of his list was shield drones.

Furthermore, about 2/3rds of his list was in 4 units of battlesuits, 2 of broadsides and 2 of crisis. As a reminder here, A unit of 10 Kommandos is now 125pts. If they get the charge off the 9 kommando boyz do 36 attacks, 30 hits and 20 wounds at -1AP. The Nob swings with his PK and gets 4 attacks, 2.66 hits and at S12 with +1 to wound its 2.2 wounds at -3AP 2dmg each. The 20 wounds will be tanked by the shield drones I believe but the nobz swings will have to go against the Iridium tank who goes to a 5+ save and likely loses 2-3 wounds. Anything else that swings will be killing Battlesuits after that, and again thats a 125pt unit destroying the defenses of a 325(ish) point unit. If I get a second mob of Kommandos against them those 20 wounds get tanked by mostly 4+ saves meaning 10 dmg no FNP and that is 2.5 dead suits out of 5, the nob finishes off the iridium suit so thats 3 out of 5 dead.

My new Alphork strike list https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/803640.page contains 11 units which can reliably assault turn 1 and 2 others which can usually do so, along with 2 trukkz which can suicide charge for a chance at a successful charge, all the while my mek gunz plink away at hard targets. Only downside in my opinion is that Tau receive no real punishment for being stuck in melee. It would have been nice if GW had given them at least -1 to hit to counter act their plethora of re-rolls and +1 to hits.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/16 02:10:14


Post by: Daedalus81


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right now a GSC hand weapon made of garbage and spit does more damage then a Custodes' axe. Beat that with a nerf bat.


It doesn't sound like you're objectively analyzing this.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/16 04:35:39


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


 Daedalus81 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right now a GSC hand weapon made of garbage and spit does more damage then a Custodes' axe. Beat that with a nerf bat.


It doesn't sound like you're objectively analyzing this.



So right now this,

Deals greater damage than a weapon designed and weilded by demi-gods to protect and defend a literal god. It's like saying a IG Platoon leader's power sword should do as much damage as the spear weilded by a 10' tall science experiment of a god. Oh wait, it already does. Crackers.

It's completely stupid that the GSC have access to stronger melee weapons than Custodes.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/16 07:52:49


Post by: Dolnikan


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right now a GSC hand weapon made of garbage and spit does more damage then a Custodes' axe. Beat that with a nerf bat.


It doesn't sound like you're objectively analyzing this.



So right now this,

Deals greater damage than a weapon designed and weilded by demi-gods to protect and defend a literal god. It's like saying a IG Platoon leader's power sword should do as much damage as the spear weilded by a 10' tall science experiment of a god. Oh wait, it already does. Crackers.

It's completely stupid that the GSC have access to stronger melee weapons than Custodes.


Why? I would generally argue that the effect of a melee weapon in particular is the sum of the wielder and the weapon. And abberants can use much heavier weapons than a Custodes, so I see no issues there. Custodes might be engineered by some super space wizard, but abberants are the effect of what basically is engineering by the greatest intellect in the whole universe (the hive mind). After all, many Tyranid organisms show some pretty insane capabilities when it comes to their weaponry. Just look at some claws that can tear right through the heaviest armour humans use.

And besides, there's no reason why Custodes should be the best at everything. It's the same thing as some people being incredibly salty because at some point some of them got sliced to bits by some of the best warriors in the whole galaxy (Harlequins).


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/16 10:22:22


Post by: Ordana


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Considering Custodes are yet to actually win a major outright, despite their top showings, I don't believe Custodes will suffer any major changes. That being said, Tau are basically Castellans of 8th, and need to be smote. Eldar being even close to OP is good for the game, as they have been borderline broken for all of 9th, and deserve at least 1 day of reckoning.

All the strength of Tau however can still be undone by strong dedicated shooting (Eradicators/Hellblasters/HB squads) There is nothing really scary other than the fact that they can turn 1 shoot an entire army off a table, currently. Expect their damage and range to get nerfed.
I love that you try to claim that Eldar deserve to be OP because they have been bad for a few months in 1 while generally being at or near the top for atleast the last decade.

No one 'deserves' to be 'close to OP'. feth that gak.



[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/16 10:30:07


Post by: ClockworkZion


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Right now a GSC hand weapon made of garbage and spit does more damage then a Custodes' axe. Beat that with a nerf bat.


It doesn't sound like you're objectively analyzing this.



So right now this,

Deals greater damage than a weapon designed and weilded by demi-gods to protect and defend a literal god. It's like saying a IG Platoon leader's power sword should do as much damage as the spear weilded by a 10' tall science experiment of a god. Oh wait, it already does. Crackers.

It's completely stupid that the GSC have access to stronger melee weapons than Custodes.

I'm going to say the hammer designed to mine ores like adamantium should hit harder. I mean no one is mining that stuff with a power weapon for a reason after all.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/16 10:36:16


Post by: tneva82


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Considering Custodes are yet to actually win a major outright, despite their top showings, I don't believe Custodes will suffer any major changes. That being said, Tau are basically Castellans of 8th, and need to be smote. Eldar being even close to OP is good for the game, as they have been borderline broken for all of 9th, and deserve at least 1 day of reckoning.


Eh no. Only noobs and those who don't care about balance would make armies OP because they were bad before. That's THE MOST STUPID reason for army being OP.

You just showed you want yourself to have I win auto button because you don't want to play well. You just want to win by having busted army to compensate your gaming skill or lack of it..


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/17 12:55:56


Post by: Marin


tneva82 wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Considering Custodes are yet to actually win a major outright, despite their top showings, I don't believe Custodes will suffer any major changes. That being said, Tau are basically Castellans of 8th, and need to be smote. Eldar being even close to OP is good for the game, as they have been borderline broken for all of 9th, and deserve at least 1 day of reckoning.


Eh no. Only noobs and those who don't care about balance would make armies OP because they were bad before. That's THE MOST STUPID reason for army being OP.

You just showed you want yourself to have I win auto button because you don't want to play well. You just want to win by having busted army to compensate your gaming skill or lack of it..


it`s slow codex release problem, older codexes eat nerfs, because they are much more powerful than the old ones and new codexes just abuse the fact that they lost some of their power.
With this kind of codex releases if new codex is not considered super strong on release, it will probably have huge issues in the long run.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/17 14:30:42


Post by: VladimirHerzog


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Too late. Weaver of Fates dice is broken. Auto 6s? Yeah. Good luck. Right now a GSC hand weapon made of garbage and spit does more damage then a Custodes' axe. Beat that with a nerf bat.


what?

I'm assuming youre talking about the eldar strands of fate? Its not an auto 6 on anything, you have to roll on a table and hope you get the one you need.
Are aberrants stronger than whatever custodes can pick up an axe?


sorry but you're giving off "big scrub energy" with that mentality


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/17 16:54:40


Post by: Daedalus81


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Deals greater damage than a weapon designed and weilded by demi-gods to protect and defend a literal god. It's like saying a IG Platoon leader's power sword should do as much damage as the spear weilded by a 10' tall science experiment of a god. Oh wait, it already does. Crackers.

It's completely stupid that the GSC have access to stronger melee weapons than Custodes.


An Aberrant is base 2 attacks at WS3. W3 5+ and no invuln.
An Allarus Custodian has four attacks, an extra wound, hits on 2s, 2+ save with a 4+ invuln and 6+ FNP, a misercordia, and has a grenade launcher as well as a melee weapon that also shoots at D2.

That the Aberrant has an extra damage is feels irrelevant to the "god like" status of Custodes.





[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/02/17 20:56:58


Post by: Void__Dragon


 Dolnikan wrote:


Why? I would generally argue that the effect of a melee weapon in particular is the sum of the wielder and the weapon. And abberants can use much heavier weapons than a Custodes, so I see no issues there. Custodes might be engineered by some super space wizard, but abberants are the effect of what basically is engineering by the greatest intellect in the whole universe (the hive mind). After all, many Tyranid organisms show some pretty insane capabilities when it comes to their weaponry. Just look at some claws that can tear right through the heaviest armour humans use.

And besides, there's no reason why Custodes should be the best at everything. It's the same thing as some people being incredibly salty because at some point some of them got sliced to bits by some of the best warriors in the whole galaxy (Harlequins).


Aberrants have the same strength value as Custodians and I can all but guarantee you that fluff depicting a fight between Custodians and Aberrants would feature a single Custodian slaughtering dozens of them in single combat.

And no, Custodians being the best humanoid combatants in the galaxy is pretty much canon. Among all army books only knights are more elite.

With that said Fezzik is just whining. Custodes are one of if not the best army in the game atm (though Tau may change that), and there's nothing wrong with exceptionally powerful and skilled fighters being able to handle them in melee like Solitaires.

Harlequin Troupes shouldn't generally be capable of it though and you're frankly merely wrong if you say otherwise.


[Tau] How can they be fixed for 9ed? What are your hopes for the new book? @ 2022/04/15 21:13:14


Post by: EightFoldPath


Spoiler:
EightFoldPath wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
My predictions (that could all be wrong):

1. Tau will be OP on release, win plenty of tournaments and eventually get a nerf and/or be codex creeped by later codexes. PSA - do not buy 15 Piranhas if they are totally OP and then cry about it when they get nerfed ork buggy style.

2. Richard Siegler will win a major using Kauyon in the final in 2022.

3. He will also win with them after they are rightly nerfed and everyone says they can't win anymore. #justsieglerthings

4. The Tau vs melee Ork match up will favour the Tau. This one is the most bold of the predictions as it relies on the Tau points being as good as Orks and Tau keeping FTGG. But, I feel mechanically that the army that traditionally loves being charged is going to be good against "charging is my only plan" armies.

So prediction 1 took a single week of tournament results to get going... They already look absolutely busted, and I saw other players at my tournament stumbling around in a daze muttering about ABFPs. I guess we never know with GW and nerfs though. WIll they hit Tau alongside Tyranids and Custodes, or release Eldar to make us forget about these three? Good news is there doesn't seem to be anything like ork buggies that will get spammed to the max then nerfed, seems to be mainly balanced lists of a wide variety of broken datasheets for now, but watch out over the next few weeks as people work out what is the best of the best, and also magnetise those Crisis suits as some of the guns won't be staying at 5 points for long.

Prediction 2 looks a bit shakier. The issue being Montka is just so good. I think I might need a nerf to be gifted from GW to Montka to stand a chance of making this one. Prediction 3 still looks good based on LVO.

Prediction 4, any melee focused Orks able to weigh in on how hard the new Tau match up is right now? Do you charge in and murder them or do they cheaply screen you out and gun you down with their insanely priced guns?

So, the nerfs have happened and I've got my wished for Monkta nerf as well. Siegler, get cracking on number 2/3 please. I'm also laughing at the Eldar portion of the follow up post.