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Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 01:59:40


Post by: macluvin


Are squats just a meme or are there die hard squat fans that legitimately crave their return? I’m just curious. I’ve never seen a squat model in person before. I think the concept could be really cool though.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 02:11:51


Post by: Nevelon


macluvin wrote:
Are squats just a meme or are there die hard squat fans that legitimately crave their return? I’m just curious. I’ve never seen a squat model in person before. I think the concept could be really cool though.


Both?

They are a meme. Can’t really argue that point. But there are also living ancestors who await the return of their people. Probably not a lot of them with old lead kicking around, but some. More likely people fond of dwarves, who would like to see them in 40k.

I’ve a half dozen or so of the stunties myself, but even if they were rebooted, I’d probably pass on starting another army.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 02:25:28


Post by: RaptorusRex


Yes. I like Dwarfs. I like 40k. This is a good mix.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 02:29:48


Post by: Blastaar


I'd buy them.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 02:32:43


Post by: Voss


It would honestly depend what they did with them

I don't have any but the original plastics and a mole mortar, but it would really depend.

If they did 'short Guardsmen, but with trikes and terminators' again, then no. But if they took a chance and did something a little more interesting than 'T4 army, but with lasguns and flak armor,' it could be compelling and functional.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 02:47:26


Post by: ccs


Yes, we do.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:


If they did 'short Guardsmen, but with trikes and terminators' again, then no. But if they took a chance and did something a little more interesting than 'T4 army, but with lasguns and flak armor,' it could be compelling and functional.


I'm fine with new stuff & ideas - so long as I have options for my existing Squat stuff (trikes/bikes. Exo armor, short T4 Guardsmen, etc) as well.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 03:03:38


Post by: PenitentJake


A huge yes.

Living ancestors could be AMAZING with a 9th rule set; their Crusade rules would rock.

Super-heavy land trains in plastic? Yes.

Bikes and trikes for days? Yes.

Kharadon Overlords are almost techy enough to fit on a 40k table and I love them. Actual squats would be amazing.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 03:07:49


Post by: ZebioLizard2


I like the idea of power armored dwarves so.. Yes. I loved those weird land trains they had.

Demiurges too for Tau.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 03:40:14


Post by: Amishprn86


40k is missing dwarfs, many play AOS/Fantasy with dwarfs, only natural to want them in 40k. Me personally I don't like them but I know many that do.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 03:44:14


Post by: Giantwalkingchair


Nah, got enough power armour armies. Don't need another one.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 03:59:42


Post by: Wyldhunt


Eh. I don't have anything against squats, but I think it would be hard to reintroduce them neatly into 40k. They've just been too conspicuously absent for too long. It's already a little hard to swallow each time GW introduces a vehicle that "has totally been around this whole time, you guys." Doing that with an entire faction that is large and significant enough to participate in battles across the galaxy is an even bigger ask.

I feel like squats might work better in something closer to Necromunda's scale or even something like Battle Fleet Gothic. Say that they've been around the whole time, but they're so few in number that they really only fight en masse in one small, specific piece of the map or say that they're all dedicated shipwrights and voidsmen now, rarely seen outside of boarding actions.

Don't make me wonder where they've been in every Black Library novel and codex I've read since high school.

(Now something like exodites who get mentioned pretty regularly but don't have an army yet... There's a faction you could introduce without straining suspension of disbelief.)

Also, I'm not sure what design space you'd squeeze them into in 40k. T4 guardsmen could just be a regimental doctrine. Slightly more durability and better guns is going to look a lot like a mechanicus army (and my buddy with a squat army uses mechanicus rules.) If you lean into their exosuit thing, you're going to overlap with tau and with the sisters' exosuits.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 04:31:03


Post by: Voss


 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Nah, got enough power armour armies. Don't need another one.


They weren't a power armor army. Most of the army had the same options as guardsmen. Flak armor, lasguns and a choice of the 'basic' heavy weapons (though the whole squad could carry heavy bolters if they wanted to pay for it)

The squat exo-armor was limited to 5 models total (warlord + exactly 4 bodyguard) per 'brotherhood' (minimum 3 squads + warlord and hearthguard, which came to about 750 points naked). Guildmasters could also have exo-armor, but had to bring along at least one bike squad for 555 points. Going big on armor wasn't an option for squats, they were just T4 guardsmen.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 04:33:31


Post by: macluvin


It's another millenium. And the imperium got ripped in half. There's all sorts of explanations from warp shenanigans to going into hiding in anticipation of the rift or whatever.
The design space though is a very very realistic concern.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 04:39:34


Post by: ccs


Wyldhunt wrote:
Eh. I don't have anything against squats, but I think it would be hard to reintroduce them neatly into 40k. They've just been too conspicuously absent for too long. It's already a little hard to swallow each time GW introduces a vehicle that "has totally been around this whole time, you guys." Doing that with an entire faction that is large and significant enough to participate in battles across the galaxy is an even bigger ask.

I feel like squats might work better in something closer to Necromunda's scale or even something like Battle Fleet Gothic. Say that they've been around the whole time, but they're so few in number that they really only fight en masse in one small, specific piece of the map or say that they're all dedicated shipwrights and voidsmen now, rarely seen outside of boarding actions.

Don't make me wonder where they've been in every Black Library novel and codex I've read since high school.

(Now something like exodites who get mentioned pretty regularly but don't have an army yet... There's a faction you could introduce without straining suspension of disbelief.)

Also, I'm not sure what design space you'd squeeze them into in 40k. T4 guardsmen could just be a regimental doctrine. Slightly more durability and better guns is going to look a lot like a mechanicus army (and my buddy with a squat army uses mechanicus rules.) If you lean into their exosuit thing, you're going to overlap with tau and with the sisters' exosuits.


Stunted thinking like this was cited ages ago early in 3e by GW.
They said one of the reasons they dropped the faction was that they just didn't have any new/good ideas for them at the time.

As for how few of them there might be fighting out there? It's gotta be exponentially higher than the total # of Custodes encountered not on Terra.
So if Custodes are a valid force....
Besides, there's millions & millions of worlds in the Imperium. That's plenty of design space to play with. The faction doesn't have to have any grand universe wide presence. They could represent warring clans within just 1 solar system. Or they could be completely fictitious - a faction only seen in bad Imperiel action-movie holovids & comics. Or games with them could represent battles that took place sometime in the past. It doesn't matter. They just have to have great looking models & be fun to play.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 05:02:08


Post by: Wyldhunt


ccs wrote:

Stunted thinking like this was cited ages ago early in 3e by GW.

"Stunted" feels a bit harsh. We're all having a friendly conversation here.


They said one of the reasons they dropped the faction was that they just didn't have any new/good ideas for them at the time.

I mean, do we collectively have any great ideas for them now? If GW releases them and people play them, I'll be glad people are having fun. But it also seems a bit of shame to spend release schedule space on them if they play just like guardsmen or mechanicus or firstborn or whomever.

As for how few of them there might be fighting out there? It's gotta be exponentially higher than the total # of Custodes encountered not on Terra.
So if Custodes are a valid force....

I mean.
A.) To me, custodes are honestly kind of pushing it.
B.) While custodes weren't out and about in the galaxy (much), the lore made it pretty clear that they at least existed and were hanging out on Terra. Whereas I'm not sure we've seen someone drop the term "squats" in any novels or codices from this century. The term certainly doesn't seem to show up as often as other abhuman terms like "ogryn" or "ratling." Are squats ever existing even canon at the moment?


Besides, there's millions & millions of worlds in the Imperium. That's plenty of design space to play with. The faction doesn't have to have any grand universe wide presence. They could represent warring clans within just 1 solar system. Or they could be completely fictitious - a faction only seen in bad Imperiel action-movie holovids & comics. Or games with them could represent battles that took place sometime in the past. It doesn't matter. They just have to have great looking models & be fun to play.

Ultimately, I'm all for doing whatever you and your friends will enjoy. I've certainly never complained about facing my buddy's squat army and their sometimes-fan-made rules. But also, it was kind of a pain to explain why the tau were present in a given campaign prior to the 4th and 5th spheres of expansion. Like, sure Space Wolves travel around a fair bit, but they'd have to be a long way from Fenris to be anywhere near the tau empire. And after the 27th hivefleet 50th necron dynasty, 18th Waaagh, and 12th separate craftworld have invaded your single solar system that also regularly gets threatened by drukhari raids genestealer uprisings, and daemonic incursions, you have to really stretch that suspension of disbelief. What are these space dwarves doing that has their tiny piece of territory surviving all these attacks while maintaining enough infrastructure to keep pumping out war machines and troops?

As with tau, lacking a feasible means of being present across the galaxy can make it difficult to involve them in the setting to the same degree as other GW-official factions. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to be considered that a faction might not be viable if you have to canonically make them holovid characters to justify their existence. If GW released squats as a faction and used one of the fluff explanations you've given as examples, I would congratulate you for having your wishes granted and happily play against your space dwarves. But I might also groan every time I have to write them into a campaign.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 05:14:31


Post by: macluvin


That period of groaning too shall pass as did the awkward phase without the squats.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 05:36:34


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


I think when GW gets around to bring them back they won't look anything like the old squats. GW would try to differentiate them from Guard, Marines and Sisters and also to make it hard to use any of the many third party miniatures for them that popped up recently.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 06:40:27


Post by: aphyon


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I think when GW gets around to bring them back they won't look anything like the old squats. GW would try to differentiate them from Guard, Marines and Sisters and also to make it hard to use any of the many third party miniatures for them that popped up recently.


Dwarves have been a staple of nearly every fantasy setting since Tolkien made them iconic.

I am sure they would sell in 40K again if GW could figure out a way to make them work like they did with the AOS version kharadron overlords

We had them in fantasy, and mantic still has them for kings of war as well as their version of the 40K squats in the forge fathers line.

As a side note, even though they have not come out and said they are related to the squats- the Demiurg in BFG are effectively space fairing dwarven miners who work with the tau (and they have really cool ships).


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 07:23:10


Post by: Da Boss


The first time I ever called a stranger as a kid was to order some squats from GW mail order. They were OOP even then but I got 3 squat bikers and used fantasy dwarves to make the rest of my army. I was a huge fan as a kid.

Still am, but now I prefer the Demiurg concept over the squat one. I just think they work better as aliens than little humans, which would mean a visual redesign.

I am using mantic forgefathers with closed helmets to make my own demiurg force for Grimdark Future, and there are lots of options for more traditional squats if you prefer that. You can play them in Warpath or Grimdark Future or proxy them in gw games. I think it's already the best time to be a sci fi dwarf wnthusiast since the 80s, and I dunno that we need GW to do anything much to support that.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 07:52:57


Post by: Blackie


Considering how godawful the current GW dwarves are then no, let squats rest in piece wherever they are .


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 08:23:53


Post by: ccs


ccs wrote:
As for how few of them there might be fighting out there? It's gotta be exponentially higher than the total # of Custodes encountered not on Terra.
So if Custodes are a valid force....

Wyldhunt wrote:
I mean.
A.) To me, custodes are honestly kind of pushing it.
B.) While custodes weren't out and about in the galaxy (much), the lore made it pretty clear that they at least existed and were hanging out on Terra. Whereas I'm not sure we've seen someone drop the term "squats" in any novels or codices from this century. The term certainly doesn't seem to show up as often as other abhuman terms like "ogryn" or "ratling." Are squats ever existing even canon at the moment?


Yes, they get mentioned from time to time. Think the most recent was something in one of the PA books. And there's a playable Squat or two in Necromunda.



Wyldhunt wrote:
I've certainly never complained about facing my buddy's squat army and their sometimes-fan-made rules. But also, it was kind of a pain to explain why the tau were present in a given campaign prior to the 4th and 5th spheres of expansion. Like, sure Space Wolves travel around a fair bit, but they'd have to be a long way from Fenris to be anywhere near the tau empire. And after the 27th hivefleet 50th necron dynasty, 18th Waaagh, and 12th separate craftworld have invaded your single solar system that also regularly gets threatened by drukhari raids genestealer uprisings, and daemonic incursions, you have to really stretch that suspension of disbelief. What are these space dwarves doing that has their tiny piece of territory surviving all these attacks while maintaining enough infrastructure to keep pumping out war machines and troops?

As with tau, lacking a feasible means of being present across the galaxy can make it difficult to involve them in the setting to the same degree as other GW-official factions. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to be considered that a faction might not be viable if you have to canonically make them holovid characters to justify their existence. If GW released squats as a faction and used one of the fluff explanations you've given as examples, I would congratulate you for having your wishes granted and happily play against your space dwarves. But I might also groan every time I have to write them into a campaign.


My point was that as long as the faction is fun to play (mechanically) and has great looking models, they could pick just about anything lore wise & go with it. 40k is already chock full of crap lore. A little bit more won't hurt it.

But OK, so you thought Holovid Squats are a step too silly.
How about we just steal a concept from AoS? In the Seraphron army, one of their factions is the Coalesced. The Slann literally form their lizardmen armies out of their memories of what was.
Well, Squats have powerful psykers known as Living Ancestors. And dwarves have very long lifespans, very long memories, & hold grudges that are almost genetic. So what if most (or maybe all) of the squats in a mass battle weren't real?
The living ancestor summons what was (or in the case of new stuff, what he wishes they'd had) to do battle for him. Hell, we might as well steal some astral projection force image shenanigans from Luke Skywalker in SW:VIII - that way the ancestor might not even be physically present.
Much easier for 1 old Squat, or a small band, to travel about the galaxy & just conjure up what's needed than haul an army along.

But truthfully? I don't care what the lore is. Or if it even if there is lore. I just want to put my army back on the table, in the current edition, as what they are instead of a Counts-As-(Guard) {most of my stuff is Guard equivalent).

Edit: (CCS): Man, what went wrong with that set of quotes....


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 08:26:32


Post by: Jidmah


I guess if you find a niche between guard, sisters, admech, GSC and marines, why not?

There are things in more urgent need of attention that squats though, R&H and corsairs come to mind.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 08:40:52


Post by: Sim-Life


Why do they need a niche? GW stopped worrying about faction identity beyond aesthetics ages ago. Just slap a bunch of army wide rules that add -/+1 to a different stat every turn and yoy're good to go.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 08:43:51


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I'm... not sure.

On one hand, the not-Squats are one of the few things Mantic has done that I quite like, so I'd be interested to see how GW could do "proper" Squats.

I also think their work with the Skydorfs in AoS is pretty cool, even if I don't like the flying boats (a bit too chibi for me). The infantry are great. The less said about their updated Slayers, the Fyrslyrys, the better...

So I think there's a really interesting basis for Squats reemerging in the post-rift 40k galaxy. Even have the Indomitus Crusade find their way to the fallen Squat Homeworlds, so there's some semblance of the old allegiances, but they're still not the Imperium whilst at the same time not being Xenos either.

And I think the potential for interactions/integration with the Cult Mechanicus is fascinating, and some Squats reconnect with Mars, whereas others wish to keep their technology to themselves and their isolationist/survivalist ways.

But really I'd trade it all for a 40k scale plastic Thunderhawk.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 08:51:01


Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


So I am a massive dwarf player in most games.

Hell I own a dwarf army in basically every GW system (MESBG, WHFB and AoS) but I honestly wouldn't want them back in 40k as a stand alone army. Sure as a new auxiliary choice for IG or something that'd be cool but 40k has enough issues with CURRENT factions before bringing in another.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 09:00:56


Post by: Hellebore


macluvin wrote:
Are squats just a meme or are there die hard squat fans that legitimately crave their return? I’m just curious. I’ve never seen a squat model in person before. I think the concept could be really cool though.


You should have made this a poll if you wanted to know...


But yes. Space orks and elves got decades of development and nuancing to get where they are now, it's trivial for space dwarfs to get the same...


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 09:07:56


Post by: Skinnereal


I re-started 40k a while ago, starting with Imperial Guard, and jumping straight onto Ad Mech when they were added in 6th (?). This was mainly because of Squats when I played RT, way back.
When I was dragged into playing AoS, I only did it for the Kaharadron Overlords.
I've grabbed the Necromunda Squat Hired Gun when it appeared, with no expectation of using it with my Necromunda gang.

So, I would be all over new-Squats if they happened.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 09:27:35


Post by: Niiai


My biggest experience with squats are looking at pictures. I also around 1996 read a fan made squat codex that focused on having loads of tanks. Like Tokyo tank police the anime. They had a small tank there called bonapart. I enjoyed that.

2021... Or 2022 rather. I have no idea what flavor to give them. What culturally distinguish them in the setting? The Eldar are quite established. Would they just be imperial guards with shorter models? How would they game mechanics be? Would they even be dwarfs? A lot of this needs good awnsers if they are to be implemented into the setting. I already have more armies then I play. I would not play them.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 09:35:23


Post by: Wyldhunt


 Sim-Life wrote:
Why do they need a niche? GW stopped worrying about faction identity beyond aesthetics ages ago. Just slap a bunch of army wide rules that add -/+1 to a different stat every turn and yoy're good to go.

I feel like armies lacking unique playstyles is a solvable problem, but each faction we throw into the mix makes it that much harder to solve. Especially if that faction has a lot of overlap with others.


My point was that as long as the faction is fun to play (mechanically) and has great looking models, they could pick just about anything lore wise & go with it. 40k is already chock full of crap lore. A little bit more won't hurt it.

...

But truthfully? I don't care what the lore is. Or if it even if there is lore. I just want to put my army back on the table, in the current edition, as what they are instead of a Counts-As-(Guard) {most of my stuff is Guard equivalent).

Hey, I fully support you rocking your space dwarves in whatever fashion brings you and your opponents a good time. But also, each faction that gets full faction support takes a share of GW's production budget and release schedule slots. So if squats struggle to make the lore better because they have to bend over backwards to justify their inclusion (see: primaris marines), and if they struggle to make the game itself better because of excessive overlap with existing factions, then I'm not sure adding them back in is a good idea. Selfishly, I'd probably prefer that people in your situation use counts-as rules or fandex rules and not eat up some of the aforementioned budget. ^_^;


But OK, so you thought Holovid Squats are a step too silly.
How about we just steal a concept from AoS? In the Seraphron army, one of their factions is the Coalesced. The Slann literally form their lizardmen armies out of their memories of what was.
Well, Squats have powerful psykers known as Living Ancestors. And dwarves have very long lifespans, very long memories, & hold grudges that are almost genetic. So what if most (or maybe all) of the squats in a mass battle weren't real?
The living ancestor summons what was (or in the case of new stuff, what he wishes they'd had) to do battle for him. Hell, we might as well steal some astral projection force image shenanigans from Luke Skywalker in SW:VIII - that way the ancestor might not even be physically present.
Much easier for 1 old Squat, or a small band, to travel about the galaxy & just conjure up what's needed than haul an army along.

I mean, I don't really want to yuck your yum. I feel like one abhuman psyker summoning an entire army big enough to participate on the usual 40k scale has some significant implications for the setting as well as some thematic overlap with things like warp ghosts, but sure. You could do that or any number of other things. The tricky part is explaining why, if they have the ability to participate on a galactic stage, they seemingly haven't done so for quite some time.

Custodes were babysitting, necrons were sleeping, and the tau were playing catch-up to get big and advanced enough to play with the big kids. But why haven't the squats been around? I'm certain it's possible to come up with a perfectly good explanation; I'm just not confident that we'd get something good instead of another awkward fit like primaris and their lore. So while I'd welcome a well-executed squats reintroduction, I also hope no one at GW is in the mood to try.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 09:46:43


Post by: Dysartes


Wyldhunt wrote:
(Now something like exodites who get mentioned pretty regularly but don't have an army yet... There's a faction you could introduce without straining suspension of disbelief.)

[Tongue in cheek]So the Eldar player doesn't want Dwarves in Space, but wants Elves Riding Dinosaurs in Space instead? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you...[/Tongue in cheek]


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 09:52:43


Post by: Sunny Side Up


Probably not. If they are not conceptually interesting, people can continue to do dwarf conversions as counts-as-Marines or counts-as-Imperial-Guard or whatever.

There're also more recent Squat/space-dwarf models for Necromunda. Maybe a Kill Team of them with 40K rules as part of Inquisition or so would be fun. Or as a datasheet for Tau or maybe Guard.

But as an entire army / miniature range, complete with sub-factions, etc.. I don't think that particular meme would have enough legs.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 10:26:15


Post by: Crispy78


Wyldhunt wrote:

Custodes were babysitting, necrons were sleeping, and the tau were playing catch-up to get big and advanced enough to play with the big kids. But why haven't the squats been around? I'm certain it's possible to come up with a perfectly good explanation; I'm just not confident that we'd get something good instead of another awkward fit like primaris and their lore. So while I'd welcome a well-executed squats reintroduction, I also hope no one at GW is in the mood to try.


They could be fleet-based. After their home-world was munched by the tyranids, some managed to evacuate and have since been bumming around the far end of the galaxy. Outside of imperial space, so as far as the Imperium is concerned they were all dead. They have been out doing suitably dwarfy things, mining asteroids and salvaging space hulks and so on. All the while, nurturing their grudge against the Imperium that failed to protect them. And now they're back, with a huge fleet of salvaged archaeo-tech and a score to settle...


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 10:31:10


Post by: Niiai


You could always say they jumped their civilization forward in time. Perhaps they also lost a war to the old once and jumped forward some.... I don't know. A very long way into the future. Spheres of battle fleets appearing randomly around the galaxy.

Dwarves are old after all. They would not even know about Necrons, or the war in heaven. They where bossy fighting their own war long before that.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 10:35:53


Post by: tauist


Sure! Bring them on. I think many illustrations of Squat mercenaries in Rogue Trader look badass. It's that ZZ Top meets biker guy meets bounty hunter reality show aesthetic, its a flavour of OTT machismo we dont have anymore in modern 40K. Ticks all the boxes for my sensibilities.

I don't much care for the direction modern 40K has taken in general. Not enough satire and too much grimderp. Every time they have reintroduced old stuff such as GSC has been a positive thing for me. Even now, the only new release I'm impatiently waiting for is the upcoming HH box, because Beakies will always and forever trump any Primaris in my book.



Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 10:47:53


Post by: MarkNorfolk


Yep. Bring 'em back. Bikes and trikes. Living Ancestors with Force Dome psychic powers. 10 man squads all with a heavy bolter. Exo-armour. Exo-armour. on bikes! Mole mortars and Thudd guns.

I remember the "Dwarves on bikes? What were we thinking!" article. Well, you were thinking "this is great!". And you were right.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 10:54:26


Post by: Hellebore


IMO the community has bought into this line of conventional wisdom that squats just wouldn't work, when it's pretty obvious that there's nothing intrinsically unusable about a space dwarf, than there is a space ork, or space knight, or space undead.

If a cirque du soleil clown army is in keeping with the 40k aesthetic, it's pretty clear than CONTEXT is all you need for a successful army.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 10:55:12


Post by: BertBert


Hard to say. For me they'd have to be stylized to the point where they look suitably alien or with design cues that develop them beyond "biker dwarves in space". I'd probably prefer them to be Demiurge instead, with a fresh set of aesthetics, lore and units.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 11:08:13


Post by: a_typical_hero


If the design would be akin to the Necromunda Squats, then no. Not different enough from a regular fantasy dwarf for me.

With a more alien design it would work.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 11:12:14


Post by: Niiai


Start with an anesthetic. Visually and culturally. I stil like my suggested jumping forward in time some zillion years after loosing to the old once. Visually very ornate weapons, while stil having weapons that spew out diesel fumes.

Suggest a general statline for basic troop. A weapon profile for their main weapons.

Come up with 3 HQ, 2 troops, 3 fast attack, 3 elite (one of them an elite version of the troop.) 3 heavy support. 1 transport, 1 flyer.

Then do a test to see if they mechanically unique enough.

Have them bee the custodies or orks? T5, but with really good equipment. Still bs5+? Could be fun. High use of flamers to compensate for bad BS. Very good chainfist axes? Loads of 2+ Armour saves. Lots of bikes to compensate for a move of 5. Have transports be capped at 5 units. Have minimum squads be 4.

Unique so far.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 11:34:54


Post by: Pacific


Not sure if this is true, but I had heard that one of the senior GW staff/designers that previously despised Squats (I'm not sure whom), and had said Squats would only return over his dead body, has now left. This is why you have a few of them sneaking back in to things like Necromunda, which at one time absolutely would not have happened.

Is anyone in a position to verify my questionable statement?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm... not sure.

On one hand, the not-Squats are one of the few things Mantic has done that I quite like, so I'd be interested to see how GW could do "proper" Squats.

I also think their work with the Skydorfs in AoS is pretty cool, even if I don't like the flying boats (a bit too chibi for me). The infantry are great. The less said about their updated Slayers, the Fyrslyrys, the better...

So I think there's a really interesting basis for Squats reemerging in the post-rift 40k galaxy. Even have the Indomitus Crusade find their way to the fallen Squat Homeworlds, so there's some semblance of the old allegiances, but they're still not the Imperium whilst at the same time not being Xenos either.

And I think the potential for interactions/integration with the Cult Mechanicus is fascinating, and some Squats reconnect with Mars, whereas others wish to keep their technology to themselves and their isolationist/survivalist ways.

But really I'd trade it all for a 40k scale plastic Thunderhawk.


I feel the same way. The Mantic Forge Fathers (dwarves in space) are great, you can imagine what weird, wacky (certainly big!) war machines GW could come up with these days if the desire was there.

Certainly a lot of the technical restrictions that limited the Squats back in the early 90s to biker dwarves no longer exist - Jervis Johnson always maintained Epic was a much better environment for them (and they were/still are really popular in that setting) because it allowed the big war machines to be used.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 11:51:10


Post by: Arbitrator


I'd prefer to see Demiurg, because the game doesn't need more Imperial bloat. I'd be content with a, "they're still fiercely independent and clashes with Imperial worlds aren't unheard of" but I figure that part of the lore willl be handwaved as "Primaris are SO COOL they'd never risk harming Imperials and want to ally with Guilliman now so much!"

That said, I genuinely do like the Kharadrons so I would be interested in seeing what GW do with Space Dwarfs.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 11:57:00


Post by: SamusDrake


I can see them being a big hit as a new gang in Necromunda.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 12:11:21


Post by: grahamdbailey


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I think when GW gets around to bring them back they won't look anything like the old squats. GW would try to differentiate them from Guard, Marines and Sisters and also to make it hard to use any of the many third party miniatures for them that popped up recently.


They're already back. There are a couple knocking about in Necromunda. Whether or not those are reflective of a renewed range is another thing!


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 12:52:08


Post by: Geifer


I wouldn't mind getting Squats back. Probably not for me unless the models turn out really shiny, but they've been a thing in the past and still have their fans. Who am I to deny them new models?

Wyldhunt wrote:
I mean, I don't really want to yuck your yum. I feel like one abhuman psyker summoning an entire army big enough to participate on the usual 40k scale has some significant implications for the setting as well as some thematic overlap with things like warp ghosts, but sure. You could do that or any number of other things. The tricky part is explaining why, if they have the ability to participate on a galactic stage, they seemingly haven't done so for quite some time.

Custodes were babysitting, necrons were sleeping, and the tau were playing catch-up to get big and advanced enough to play with the big kids. But why haven't the squats been around? I'm certain it's possible to come up with a perfectly good explanation; I'm just not confident that we'd get something good instead of another awkward fit like primaris and their lore. So while I'd welcome a well-executed squats reintroduction, I also hope no one at GW is in the mood to try.


Does GW still pursue the blackstone storyline? Squats would easily fit in there. They were happily isolationist, then the rift engulfed their homeworlds and because they realized they can't win that fight on the long run, they reached out, heard from various sources like Rogue Traders that the Mechanicus is really interested in obtaining blackstone to rein in the rift. Squats want the stuff as well, send out fleets to scour the galaxy for it and try to bring it back to calm the warp around their homeworlds so they can go back to being happily isolationist.

It uses fluff that's already in place, so there's no need to introduce new elements that may not mesh, and it immediately brings them in conflict with Necrons, Chaos and the Imperium for fighting over the same resource. That should suffice why they're all over the galaxy now, fighting all sorts of enemies.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 13:07:21


Post by: Gert


As Necromunda hangers on the Squats work because they have the space to make each one unique and characterful.
As an army? Nah. There isn't a niche I can see them filling that isn't already take by Space Marines, Admech and Guard. If there needs to be a new army does it have to be a fantasy port?


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 13:11:15


Post by: Da Boss


I mean, a niche being filled never stopped GW before! But as a big space dwarf fan, I don't really need GW to do anything. Mantic's minis are cool and affordable and I can play them in similar games easily.

I can see the argument that 40K is super bloated by now, but I do wonder if that argument could not also apply to Ad Mech, Genestealer Cults and Custodes as forces? I think having those models available is better, but I'm not really engaged with game balance at all.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 13:19:44


Post by: Nurglitch


Squats are all the firstborn Space Marines we made along the way.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 13:56:46


Post by: G00fySmiley


I mean from a competitive standpoint if its just short space marines on the same bases with the same rules and points you can mroe easily hide the short models behind terrain to be out of LOS... but no that everybody and thier brother has ignore LOS it would not be as big of an advantage as years past.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 14:04:52


Post by: Tyel


I'm having flashbacks to a thread on Dakka which I think was exactly the same about Sisters before their new releases.

At the end of the day if the models are good and the rules are interesting, why not?


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 15:09:19


Post by: Galas


If Mantic was capable of doing cool space dwarfs I trust GW to do a cool faction.

As much as people hate them, thats something they have never failed to deliver, even the ones I like less like modern ones as lumineth or Ossiarchs I find at least interesting or having cool units that I like.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 15:20:36


Post by: oni


No. No one wants them.

And I believe anyone who says they do want them / would buy them is being disingenuous.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 15:53:39


Post by: macluvin


 oni wrote:
No. No one wants them.

And I believe anyone who says they do want them / would buy them is being disingenuous.


Yo mind is made the feth up, no matter what other people say XD 2 pages of people saying "Yeah I want squats" to "I would like squats if they were done right" and the occasional "they cancelled them for a reason"


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 16:18:53


Post by: Skinnereal


 oni wrote:
No. No one wants them.

And I believe anyone who says they do want them / would buy them is being disingenuous.
If you say so...

I promised here that I would buy digital codexes before they were a thing, and I have bought all 3 versions of the same codexes since.
You keep your delusional view of other people's personal convictions....



Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 16:27:34


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


I just don’t know what design space they’d fill, cause with how orks and guard have fleshed out, they don’t really have a spot imo.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 16:34:44


Post by: PenitentJake


Wyldhunt wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Why do they need a niche? GW stopped worrying about faction identity beyond aesthetics ages ago. Just slap a bunch of army wide rules that add -/+1 to a different stat every turn and yoy're good to go.

I feel like armies lacking unique playstyles is a solvable problem, but each faction we throw into the mix makes it that much harder to solve. Especially if that faction has a lot of overlap with others.



I don't want to get off topic- but I've got to hard disagree with Sim's piece of this quote. I think 9th has done more for faction identity than other edition in the history of the game. With every faction having an ability, WL trait, relic and strat for each of its subfactions, plus campaign based story arc content for the faction as a whole via Crusade, there has never been and edition where GW has tried so hard to make factions unique. Obviously, it is true that there are so many possible rules, and so yes, some abilities from one faction may be similar to abilities from other factions; the uniqueness of the faction lies in the total collection of those abilities.

I do agree with Wyldhunt though, whose viewpoint, while sharing some of Sims concerns, is more nuanced, and hence easier to get behind.

Either way, it's a tangent- I don't want to dwell... I'm not gonna change Sim's mind and he's not got gonna change my mind, so I bring it up only to express the counternarrative so that other readers can see a spectrum of opinions.

Back to Squats:

Crispy78 wrote:


They could be fleet-based. After their home-world was munched by the tyranids, some managed to evacuate and have since been bumming around the far end of the galaxy. Outside of imperial space, so as far as the Imperium is concerned they were all dead.


I really like this; there's even a sort of precedent for it- the Blackstone Fortress game was set so far out on the galactic western fringe that it was barely within Imperial territory. Yet various Imperial forces DID make it that far out, and perhaps this provides a credible story hook for re-contacting the lost squat civilization.

I'm not sure I want them to go all grudge match vs. the Imperium... Though it's certainly fair to say that we do have enough Imperial factions as-is.

Perhaps a way forward for them is to be designed as a Merc faction, with subfaction identities being informed by which other factions that particular group of squats tends to work for/ with.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 16:43:26


Post by: Racerguy180


Yes, yes, yes, yes and more yes!

I quit 40k for 25yrs cuz my favorite army was, well Squatted.

I love the necromunda squats & Kharadrons(currently converting some into 40k Squats) have a very cool look to them and just need weapon/gear swaps to make them fit 40k.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 17:01:24


Post by: Da Boss


Oni might have a point that people who want squats would have already bought the mantic or wargames factory or hasslefree alternatives, but on the other hand imperial guard and space marine alternatives don't stop people buying the GW originals.

But saying no one wants them and the people who say they do are liars is skirting rule 1 I'd say. I've bought an entire army of them from Mantic.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 17:13:21


Post by: Strg Alt


Voss wrote:
It would honestly depend what they did with them

I don't have any but the original plastics and a mole mortar, but it would really depend.

If they did 'short Guardsmen, but with trikes and terminators' again, then no. But if they took a chance and did something a little more interesting than 'T4 army, but with lasguns and flak armor,' it could be compelling and functional.


GW is again too late for that. AoW Planetfall introduced Russian space dwarves called Dvar. That´s how it is done.

And nope, I wouldn´t buy them. Why? As I said way too late to start another faction.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 17:29:32


Post by: Quasistellar


If they made them like the old ones, I wouldn’t go near them. Yuck.

I get my sci fi dwarf kicks with kharadron overlords


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 17:30:56


Post by: Pacific


You definitely have a lot less people being angrily opposed to them now than, say five years ago had that question been posted then.

I think it's the case that they were 'in fashion' such a long time ago, then definitely out of fashion for a while (GW banning their mention on their forums at one point lol), and now coming back around again

 Da Boss wrote:
Oni might have a point that people who want squats would have already bought the mantic or wargames factory or hasslefree alternatives, but on the other hand imperial guard and space marine alternatives don't stop people buying the GW originals.

But saying no one wants them and the people who say they do are liars is skirting rule 1 I'd say. I've bought an entire army of them from Mantic.


Absolutely.

They are certainly pretty popular in the Epic community, with people either using the originals or new proxy releases from the likes of Onslaught Miniatures.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 17:37:02


Post by: Halfton


Personally I would only want to see them if they had several new playstyles developed for them. If they are just Biker and gunline with power armor I don't think it would be worth the overall hassle for a codex.

However if GW was bold I definitely see a couple playstyle niches with Squats that could really be meaningfully fun.

On a side note, having something like Landtrains being LOWs and ObSec building a army to escort it to points I think could be a lot of fun as playstyle.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 18:06:42


Post by: RaptorusRex


Having done research and even written up a fan Codex for 8th that never saw the light of day, exo-armor was always a Hearthguard or Warlord thing. It would likely be limited to Elites, then. The core of any Squat army would be the T4, 5+ save Brotherhood troops.

These would differ from Guardsmen in terms of customization. They could take bolters, or go full melee.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 18:23:24


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


Since we're talking about Space dwarfs that are missing in our Science Fantasy game a question crossed my mind: have there ever been Trolls in 40K? I know there were/ are beastmen, we have ogres and hobbits and elves, Zombies, werewolves, Vampires and Orks, but no trolls, right? In the Ork faction dreads took their typical role, so I guess that's why they're out? Same as giants who don't really have a place next to Imperial Knights?


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 18:23:58


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


 Skinnereal wrote:
 oni wrote:
No. No one wants them.

And I believe anyone who says they do want them / would buy them is being disingenuous.
If you say so...

I promised here that I would buy digital codexes before they were a thing, and I have bought all 3 versions of the same codexes since.
You keep your delusional view of other people's personal convictions....



IIRC Oni has some insider knowledge of GW sales volumes from awhile back. That might be where he gets this opinion from. Yeah, the playerbase has grown and changed, but if Squats really and truly did sell... squat (ba dum tiss) back in the day, I get why you'd think they won't sell today too.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 18:26:57


Post by: Dysartes


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Since we're talking about Space dwarfs that are missing in our Science Fantasy game a question crossed my mind: have there ever been Trolls in 40K? I know there were/ are beastmen, we have ogres and hobbits and elves, Zombies, werewolves, Vampires and Orks, but no trolls, right? In the Ork faction dreads took their typical role, so I guess that's why they're out? Same as giants who don't really have a place next to Imperial Knights?

I remember Trolls being a thing for Chaos in Epic, but can't recall if they were in 40k. The same might have been true for Minotaurs, too, but my memory is a little fuzzier about those.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 18:35:09


Post by: tauist


PenitentJake wrote:

...

Perhaps a way forward for them is to be designed as a Merc faction, with subfaction identities being informed by which other factions that particular group of squats tends to work for/ with.


That's what I was thinking too. In a way I feel like the direction GW took with squats ended up too much in this sort of space viking steampunk thing, and now the AoS dwarves are already kind of an amalgation of that approach. Squats as mercenaries would be much more fitting now, and it would tie in nicely with their Rogue Trader origins.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 20:25:41


Post by: mrFickle


I’d like to see squats as a big unit army like imperial or chaos knights.

I don’t know why but I think there should be more armies like that or none at all.

They wouldn’t have to be big walkers, something more imaginative that I can’t imagine


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 20:37:03


Post by: Stormonu


I got tired of GW ignoring squats and picked up the Mantic Forgefathers.

Personally, I see it as a hybrid force - PA elite units like space marines, with common troops and artillery units like IG - I wouldn’t mind adding some impressive tanks as well, as that sure seems like it would fit.

Never was much for the biker aspect, though.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 20:43:16


Post by: Da Boss


The Veermyn drills go really well with the Forgefathers, I have a couple for my army.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 20:50:39


Post by: Flinty


The 3D printing world is so awash with various style of space dwarf, I would guess GW will stay away from it. Too niche a range, with the only really compelling KPI being that they are space dwarfs (dwarves?)

I always liked the vehicles, but the infantry proportions never did it for me me. I prefer slender to stumpy.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 21:10:21


Post by: Voss


 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
 oni wrote:
No. No one wants them.

And I believe anyone who says they do want them / would buy them is being disingenuous.
If you say so...

I promised here that I would buy digital codexes before they were a thing, and I have bought all 3 versions of the same codexes since.
You keep your delusional view of other people's personal convictions....



IIRC Oni has some insider knowledge of GW sales volumes from awhile back. That might be where he gets this opinion from. Yeah, the playerbase has grown and changed, but if Squats really and truly did sell... squat (ba dum tiss) back in the day, I get why you'd think they won't sell today too.


Per the designers, it wasn't a sales issue. It was a 'we can't think of anything interesting to do with them'


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 21:23:36


Post by: Olthannon


Well I would prefer them to end up being not imperium aligned because there's just too many. Make it turn out that after the Imperium annexed their planets they got embittered and joined the Tau instead.

Or hey, mix both memes and have chaos squats, dedicated to the great god Hashahut.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 22:06:54


Post by: Grimtuff


 Pacific wrote:
Not sure if this is true, but I had heard that one of the senior GW staff/designers that previously despised Squats (I'm not sure whom), and had said Squats would only return over his dead body, has now left. This is why you have a few of them sneaking back in to things like Necromunda, which at one time absolutely would not have happened.

Is anyone in a position to verify my questionable statement?


I'm not really in a position, but I certainly think that statement has some merrett to it...


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 22:15:47


Post by: mrFickle


 Olthannon wrote:
Well I would prefer them to end up being not imperium aligned because there's just too many. Make it turn out that after the Imperium annexed their planets they got embittered and joined the Tau instead.

Or hey, mix both memes and have chaos squats, dedicated to the great god Hashahut.


Or maybe they escaped into the warp or webway and have been hiding out planning their revenge on the imperium for leaving the to the tyranids. In the warp they’ve picked up some cool old ones technology


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/02 22:48:59


Post by: macluvin


mrFickle wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
Well I would prefer them to end up being not imperium aligned because there's just too many. Make it turn out that after the Imperium annexed their planets they got embittered and joined the Tau instead.

Or hey, mix both memes and have chaos squats, dedicated to the great god Hashahut.


Or maybe they escaped into the warp or webway and have been hiding out planning their revenge on the imperium for leaving the to the tyranids. In the warp they’ve picked up some cool old ones technology


I would be cool with chaos squats coming back... I might pick that army up


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 00:33:05


Post by: dadx6


Yes.
I bought a kharadron overlords army with the intent of playing them as squats. I kit-bashed a GSC quad bike with Imperial Guard stubbers and Kharadron overlords to make old school Squat Bikers a new thing.

EDIT: Also, I wrote my own Squat fandex that's in the Rules section of the forums, and explained how they are basically Angry Dwarves(TM) who hate everyone since the Eldar betrayed them, the orks tried to kill them, the Imperium abandoned them, and the Tyranids drove them from their homeworlds. I could see them allying with the T'au. Or the Necrons if the necrons didn't hate all living things.

I intended them to be an army that had a hodge-podge of Imperial tech, T'au Tech, and a wide-spread ability to repair their vehicles and equipment. They would be slow, though, and that's really their primary weakness. The army I created really isn't viable as a 9th edition army AT ALL due to almost universal 4" move stat. But it makes sense, and I'm fine with it. It helps justify why underground dwarves would suddenly build flying boats - so they have assault craft to help them take objectives!



Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 00:42:06


Post by: JNAProductions


 dadx6 wrote:
Yes.
I bought a kharadron overlords army with the intent of playing them as squats. I kit-bashed a GSC quad bike with Imperial Guard stubbers and Kharadron overlords to make old school Squat Bikers a new thing.

EDIT: Also, I wrote my own Squat fandex that's in the Rules section of the forums, and explained how they are basically Angry Dwarves(TM) who hate everyone since the Eldar betrayed them, the orks tried to kill them, the Imperium abandoned them, and the Tyranids drove them from their homeworlds. I could see them allying with the T'au. Or the Necrons if the necrons didn't hate all living things.

I intended them to be an army that had a hodge-podge of Imperial tech, T'au Tech, and a wide-spread ability to repair their vehicles and equipment. They would be slow, though, and that's really their primary weakness. The army I created really isn't viable as a 9th edition army AT ALL due to almost universal 4" move stat. But it makes sense, and I'm fine with it. It helps justify why underground dwarves would suddenly build flying boats - so they have assault craft to help them take objectives!
Do you have a link to that Fandex?


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 00:46:27


Post by: dadx6


Squats Fandex here.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 01:37:08


Post by: Apple fox


I think they could be done cool, and would be a fun edition if the rules where good.

So GW is the risk factor

Also a none joke name would go a long way to pushing them within the setting better, as well I think as them being there own thing away from the imperium at this point.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 02:54:28


Post by: ScooterinAB


As with all things, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Some people really do what a Squat army. A non-Imperial humanoid army pre-Tau was missing from the game, and the tropes of dwarves were attractive to many. Since Rogue Trader, there have been some great conversion efforts for Squat armies and a lot of passion behind this weird part of the lore.

For others, talking about Squats has turned into a bit, kind of like the Felinids are now. It's a joke people can throw around and that GW can throw back at us to troll those of us old enough to remember the dark times.

For still others, Squats represent the charm of nostalgia and remind them of the games sillier roots. The game now dances with taking itself so seriously that we forget we're talking about a space personality cult with Brazil-levels of silly bureaucracy and more mohawks and leather than the entire punk scene.

Still beyond that, there is a genuine curiosity as to whether Squats can exist in Warhammer as a distinct entity beyond "space Dwarves." This was a challenge for the Studio for many years, and Squats almost become a thought experiment on what can and cant work in the game. What would their play style be? What would they bring to the table that the other 47 armies you can buy now don't? Does their non-Imperial Imperium add anything to the lore? Was their crude and frankly lazy retcon warranted, or could they have just been swept into the background where a lot of other cool races live?

Somewhere in that mess lies the answer.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 03:10:40


Post by: Jarms48


I wouldn't mind seeing Squats return.

Though I'd also like Tau to get some kind of Demiurg unit with Ion Rifles. Basically Xeno Squats instead of Ab-humans.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 04:12:58


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I do hope a Squat release is a full release, and not a "Here's half an army. See you for the inevitable expansion book 6 months from now!" like Lumineth, AdMech (sort of) and even Sisters got.

Jarms48 wrote:
Though I'd also like Tau to get some kind of Demiurg unit with Ion Rifles. Basically Xeno Squats instead of Ab-humans.
I'd like the next Tau release to refresh the "Empire" side of "Tau Empire", and really delve into the other races that work within the Tau military structure (Kroot, Vespid and so on). Unfortunately we're just getting a new character, and if we weren't just getting that we'd probably just get more suits.





Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 06:35:18


Post by: Racerguy180


MarkNorfolk wrote:

Per the designers, it wasn't a sales issue. It was a 'we can't think of anything interesting to do with them'


Yet they had no problem with Space Elves, Space Orcs, & Space Empire...

This is the thing that still pisses me off.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 06:50:34


Post by: Marshal Loss


I'm not against squats being reintroduced into the setting, though I will be bemused if (knowing my luck, when) they arrive before my beloved Emperor's Children.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 07:18:43


Post by: TreeSparr


I'm not a long time player. However, with my stimulus I bought $400 of Forge Fathers from Mantic to proxy Squats. So clearly, my answer is no, there are no squat players and only memes.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 07:53:22


Post by: mrFickle


 Marshal Loss wrote:
I'm not against squats being reintroduced into the setting, though I will be bemused if (knowing my luck, when) they arrive before my beloved Emperor's Children.


Yes there are a lot of codexes required to complete the 40K universe on the table top. The traitors legions are right up there


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 09:39:51


Post by: Stormonu


Voss wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
 oni wrote:
No. No one wants them.

And I believe anyone who says they do want them / would buy them is being disingenuous.
If you say so...

I promised here that I would buy digital codexes before they were a thing, and I have bought all 3 versions of the same codexes since.
You keep your delusional view of other people's personal convictions....



IIRC Oni has some insider knowledge of GW sales volumes from awhile back. That might be where he gets this opinion from. Yeah, the playerbase has grown and changed, but if Squats really and truly did sell... squat (ba dum tiss) back in the day, I get why you'd think they won't sell today too.


Per the designers, it wasn't a sales issue. It was a 'we can't think of anything interesting to do with them'


That's such a cop-out answer in my opinion. It was a case they didn't WANT to think of anything interesting, and it was just easier for them to drop them. The myriad versions that have shown up over the years (such as Forgefathers) shows that if they'd put in the effort, we could have gotten the army. Current GW has too much of the marine paradigm giving them tunnelvision though to contemplate it. Hell, updating eldar seems beyond their ability to care.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 09:58:19


Post by: Gert


How is it a cop-out? If the design team was wanting to push 40k away from being a SciFi mirror of WHFB but couldn't find a way to make the Squats work 20-30 odd years ago thats hardly them not trying. Hypothetically the Squats could work now as others have proposed (IMO they're just nostalgia bait and won't actually add anything) but 40k is a much more expanded setting and models are much better now than when Squats were first made.
As for Craftworlds not getting a revamp, all that needs done is a revamp of the "Core" stuff like Guardians and Aspect Warriors since there's already a bunch of modern kits in the range. Plus the Rumour Engine is looking Aeldari now and there's the fairly reliable rumour dump that Craftworlds are getting a revamp this coming year. Maybe 2022 will be the year all the Craftworlds players finally stop griping about their models.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 10:06:13


Post by: draugadan


They are back lore, and model wise. Have been for awhile now. Of course it is just 1 model for Necromunda, but, that means they exist in 40k current lore.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Grendl-Grendlsen-Squat-Bounty-Hunter-2018


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 10:09:23


Post by: Skinnereal


 draugadan wrote:
They are back lore, and model wise. Have been for awhile now. Of course it is just 1 model for Necromunda, but, that means they exist in 40k current lore.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Grendl-Grendlsen-Squat-Bounty-Hunter-2018
This one too:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Ragnir-Gunnstein-Squat-Ammojack-2019


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 11:13:14


Post by: Pacific


Racerguy180 wrote:
MarkNorfolk wrote:

Per the designers, it wasn't a sales issue. It was a 'we can't think of anything interesting to do with them'


Yet they had no problem with Space Elves, Space Orcs, & Space Empire...

This is the thing that still pisses me off.


In many ways Dwarves in Space makes more sense, as even in the fantasy setting they are ingenious engineers, have no problem with small, dark spaces etc.

I think that was the line from Jervis Johnson when he wrote that conciliatory letter to the Squats fans all of those years ago, saying in retrospect they probably should have just dropped them from 2nd edition, but that they wanted people to be able to use their existing collections. And then the actual removal of them was handled poorly/crassly (THEY GOT EATEN BY TYRANIDS AND THEY SUCK ANYWAY LOL" - or words to that effect)

Grimtuff wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
Not sure if this is true, but I had heard that one of the senior GW staff/designers that previously despised Squats (I'm not sure whom), and had said Squats would only return over his dead body, has now left. This is why you have a few of them sneaking back in to things like Necromunda, which at one time absolutely would not have happened.

Is anyone in a position to verify my questionable statement?


I'm not really in a position, but I certainly think that statement has some merrett to it...


Ah OK - thanks! Yes that ties up with what I had heard previously.

Dysartes wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Since we're talking about Space dwarfs that are missing in our Science Fantasy game a question crossed my mind: have there ever been Trolls in 40K? I know there were/ are beastmen, we have ogres and hobbits and elves, Zombies, werewolves, Vampires and Orks, but no trolls, right? In the Ork faction dreads took their typical role, so I guess that's why they're out? Same as giants who don't really have a place next to Imperial Knights?

I remember Trolls being a thing for Chaos in Epic, but can't recall if they were in 40k. The same might have been true for Minotaurs, too, but my memory is a little fuzzier about those.


From memory - no trolls. I know Ogres got pictured in WD alongside some Rogue Trader 40k minis (prior to Ogryns being released), I think to try and get some cross sales for that system. And of course in RT you could do almost anything. But as far as I can remember I didn't see anything official, and certainly nothing in 2nd edition onwards.
I did used to like Trolls in Epic, remember in battle reports a unit just sat there picking their noses and refusing to follow orders



Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 11:23:19


Post by: Tyel


 Gert wrote:
How is it a cop-out? If the design team was wanting to push 40k away from being a SciFi mirror of WHFB but couldn't find a way to make the Squats work 20-30 odd years ago thats hardly them not trying. Hypothetically the Squats could work now as others have proposed (IMO they're just nostalgia bait and won't actually add anything) but 40k is a much more expanded setting and models are much better now than when Squats were first made.
As for Craftworlds not getting a revamp, all that needs done is a revamp of the "Core" stuff like Guardians and Aspect Warriors since there's already a bunch of modern kits in the range. Plus the Rumour Engine is looking Aeldari now and there's the fairly reliable rumour dump that Craftworlds are getting a revamp this coming year. Maybe 2022 will be the year all the Craftworlds players finally stop griping about their models.


Yeah, I don't think its a cop out.
I mean back then the creative side of GW was what, a dozen people, less? You can trace the history of the other factions through the decisions of the usual suspects. If circa 1991-1993 they all responded with "nah" to "can you think of a cool way to do Dwarfs in Spaaace?" then its not surprising the project just died.
As we know they concluded the very name of "squats" was kind of insulting and stupid, and hence resolved to wipe them out.

But ultimately if someone new can come up with a combination of "art, miniatures, lore and in game mechanics" to make the faction a thing, why not? Sisters appeared to be toast. Genestealer Cults were a memory.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 14:16:02


Post by: Duskweaver


 Pacific wrote:
But as far as I can remember I didn't see anything official, and certainly nothing in 2nd edition onwards.

Trolls and minotaurs were both in the Daemon World army list in the 2nd edition Chaos codex.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 14:18:59


Post by: Da Boss


Demiurg I thought were a pretty cool take on dwarves in space that is sufficiently sci fi. The idea of squat, strong aliens from high gravity worlds works fine in my opinion, especially given the rest of 40k mostly ignores gravity.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 15:27:45


Post by: Pacific


 Duskweaver wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
But as far as I can remember I didn't see anything official, and certainly nothing in 2nd edition onwards.

Trolls and minotaurs were both in the Daemon World army list in the 2nd edition Chaos codex.


Thanks for the correction! I have just checked and you are indeed right, entries for both in the codex.

Trolls suffer from Stupidity and Minotaurs have a trait called Blood Greed where they have stay where they were after a close combat victory, feasting on the remains of their foes. Excellent.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 16:06:48


Post by: Mentlegen324


Voss wrote:
 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
 oni wrote:
No. No one wants them.

And I believe anyone who says they do want them / would buy them is being disingenuous.
If you say so...

I promised here that I would buy digital codexes before they were a thing, and I have bought all 3 versions of the same codexes since.
You keep your delusional view of other people's personal convictions....



IIRC Oni has some insider knowledge of GW sales volumes from awhile back. That might be where he gets this opinion from. Yeah, the playerbase has grown and changed, but if Squats really and truly did sell... squat (ba dum tiss) back in the day, I get why you'd think they won't sell today too.


Per the designers, it wasn't a sales issue. It was a 'we can't think of anything interesting to do with them'


Where was this said? I remember reading something about them selling at least as well as the other armies (so much so that they had to ban the discussion of them from the forums after they were squated) but I can't remember who/where/what that is from.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 16:26:50


Post by: Voss


Here's a copy of Jervis talking about it some time ago (not quite 20 years) on Portent (before it was Warseer).

https://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=70533.0

tl;dr; they worked in epic, but in 40k, no muse, no inspiration.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 16:49:27


Post by: BertBert


 Da Boss wrote:
Demiurg I thought were a pretty cool take on dwarves in space that is sufficiently sci fi. The idea of squat, strong aliens from high gravity worlds works fine in my opinion, especially given the rest of 40k mostly ignores gravity.


I have to agree and I hope that these new "Squats" will indeed be demiurg and an addition to the Tau roster (alongside new kroot, of course). Small and contained, not a whole new faction by themselves.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 22:47:24


Post by: Racerguy180


Voss wrote:
Here's a copy of Jervis talking about it some time ago (not quite 20 years) on Portent (before it was Warseer).

https://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=70533.0

tl;dr; they worked in epic, but in 40k, no muse, no inspiration.


Which is equally lame...


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 22:56:24


Post by: Strg Alt


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Since we're talking about Space dwarfs that are missing in our Science Fantasy game a question crossed my mind: have there ever been Trolls in 40K? I know there were/ are beastmen, we have ogres and hobbits and elves, Zombies, werewolves, Vampires and Orks, but no trolls, right? In the Ork faction dreads took their typical role, so I guess that's why they're out? Same as giants who don't really have a place next to Imperial Knights?


Chaos codex of 2nd allowed to bring a "WHFB" chaos army to the 40K table representing the population of daemon worlds in the eye of terror. Apart from trolls you had also beastmen and minotaurs.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/03 22:59:18


Post by: Voss


Racerguy180 wrote:
Voss wrote:
Here's a copy of Jervis talking about it some time ago (not quite 20 years) on Portent (before it was Warseer).

https://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=70533.0

tl;dr; they worked in epic, but in 40k, no muse, no inspiration.


Which is equally lame...


Oh, no. Its much worse. 'Sales suck' is unfortunate, but a legitimate reason for a business to discontinue a product line. Customers aren't buying this product, so we should focus on other things is a real motivation.

'We couldn't figure out how to make dwarf engineers in space interesting' is an utterly baffling thing for one of 'the creatives' to say. As a group, they couldn't figure out how to make them interesting at all... but only for 40k. They were fine in WFB AND, most damning, in Epic 40k. Just not... 28mm 40k? What? And then they reimagined them as the Demiurg for BFG, but again for 40k went... splat. Not because they failed, but because they didn't even try.

It is just not understandable that they could somehow do them justice in the spin-off games, but not in the main game. _Especially_ at the time, when there weren't any real tech experts in the setting.




Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/04 06:57:13


Post by: Racerguy180


Really, really lame.

Squats got sooo much love in epic, but elves and orcs are more important...apparently?


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/04 09:11:05


Post by: Dysartes


Quite a few things that made Squats popular in Epic probably wouldn't've worked in the 2nd edition rules framework - super-heavies, the Goliath artillery, Land Train, the flyers, etc. I can sort of see that.

Doesn't mean there weren't things that could've been done, though.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/04 09:23:01


Post by: stroller


Heresy here..... I can live without squats.

If they DO reappear I'll have a look, but .. even bigger heresy.. I have enough stuff atm.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/05 06:13:48


Post by: argonak


I think there's room for a T4 1W 1A race with a 3+ armor save now that marines have moved on to two wounds and two attacks.

Basically squats can take the old marine design space, but be better at vehicles and not fast. It would line up with their old WFB stats to a degree. Maybe they could have a mix of vehicles like knights and infantry.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/05 13:47:22


Post by: Afrodactyl


I honestly can't tell if the hype arounds squats is a meme or not.

I get the wanting something that we once had but has since been taken away, but it's still very much a 'fantasy in space' trope.

I also get that 40k is basically fantasy in space rather than proper sci-fi, especially the old stuff, so I can forgive it.

Me personally, I'm happy with them being a small-time faction that shows up in things like Blackstone Fortress as kind of a nudge-nudge-wink-wink type deal. I could see them featuring in a Tau codex one day as heavily armoured auxiliaries.

But then again, they gave Harlequins a whole codex, so who knows at this point.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/05 15:24:39


Post by: Mr. Burning


Mantics Forgefathers exist.

It would be interesting to see how well they sell compared to the rest of the Deadzone range Or how well they are represented at gaming club/Store/Table level.

That small subset of info would be useful (in a limited way) to gauge popularity of Space Dwarves.

Whilst thinking about it. Even if Forgefathers were the most popular of the Deadzone range. How does GW take the legal high ground with IP and a distinctive and protectable range?

A literal generation has no idea what Squats are. For all intents and purposes companies like Mantic have planted the flag first. Seems to me that start up costs on Squats include GW legal figuring out if they can own the flak armoured short arses.

Would we support a GW Go Fund Me to take on Ronnies Evil Empire?



Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/05 15:53:36


Post by: Insectum7


OldCrons before Squats.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/05 16:00:51


Post by: Voss


A literal generation has no idea what Squats are. For all intents and purposes companies like Mantic have planted the flag first. Seems to me that start up costs on Squats include GW legal figuring out if they can own the flak armoured short arses.

From GW's perspective, Mantic isn't relevant here.
The concept is Dwarfs in Space- they can't 'own' it no matter what, its far too public domain. From GW Legal's perspective, that has been the problem all along, regardless of the creative team's failure. Hence the 'Demiurg,' but they didn't do anything with them either.

The big problem with Forgefathers (beyond the basic models being ugly) is Mantic did the tanks wrong. The seams between layers of armor are on top, rather than protected by the next layer. Its effectively a giant bullet catcher.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/05 16:04:11


Post by: argonak


Voss wrote:


The big problem with Forgefathers (beyond the basic models being ugly) is Mantic did the tanks wrong. The seams between layers of armor are on top, rather than protected by the next layer. Its effectively a giant bullet catcher.


If that bothers you, I hope you don't look too closely at the Leman Russ.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/05 16:04:53


Post by: Da Boss


I think the Steel Warriors look great, just what I'm looking for in Dwarves in Space. Not so sold on the Brokkrs and whatever, even though I have a few of them.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/05 22:27:04


Post by: cuda1179


I would buy a Squats codex in a heartbeat. I have an unassembled squat force in mothballs ready for just such an occasion. I have the Necromunda Squat, 20 or so Mantic Forgefathers, a Mantic Tank, about 40 or Wargames Atlantic models, one of the AoS Sky Dwarf characters, and a bunch of AoS bits for conversions.

I remember when the Tau were first being teased as a new faction. People then were complaining about how they would be no different from Imperial Guard. Well, as it turns out, they are PLENTY different from IG, even before they went totally nutso for bigger battlesuit variants.

Squats could be set up to feel a bit less like "Close combat IG that are tougher", and a bit more like "Dark Eldar, but slower and tougher". I think the small warband feel would work well for them, even if they still have superheavies.

While we are on the topic of superheavies, other than the StormRaven, is there any other vehicle in the game that can also transport another vehicle? I think it would be neat to see a larger tank pop it's hatches and dump out a handful of Killa Kan sized Squat vehicles.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/05 23:24:51


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Insectum7 wrote:
OldCrons before Squats.
Already exist in the fluff. There's several worlds of the Necrons currently running around that work like the oldcrons do. Even if they didn't you can represent them on the board with your dudes as you feel like.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 00:36:28


Post by: Vaktathi


At one time, I'd have probably said "yes, people want squats", and probably would have included myself in that.

In hindsight, it's mostly meme, and any reintroduction would probably be extremely inherently meme driven at this point. As specialist auxilia available to various Imperial forces, I think they'd work great, even being meme-driven. As an entire dedicated faction? They'd need some extensive reworking.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 01:22:30


Post by: PondaNagura


In previous editions, Oh, Heck yeah! Certain members of my primary astartes and doctrined IG army were on the short side.
Now? Eh, I'd have to see how they're done. Otherwise I'd just continue to proxy them with whatever rules, including xenos factions.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 08:33:59


Post by: Dysartes


 cuda1179 wrote:
While we are on the topic of superheavies, other than the StormRaven, is there any other vehicle in the game that can also transport another vehicle? I think it would be neat to see a larger tank pop it's hatches and dump out a handful of Killa Kan sized Squat vehicles.

The Cyclops Demolition Vehicle can be carried by a Chimera (and possibly a Valkyrie?). Not sure the rules allow it, but the image of a swarm of them emerging from a Gorgon's ramp amuses me.

The Valkyrie Transporter could, well, transport things, as could the Thunderhawk Transporter.

Would you count a Dreadnought Drop Pod as a vehicle carrying a vehicle?


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 13:02:58


Post by: mrFickle


I think most people are apathetic about squats but if you put them on the spot and make them vote yes or no then you will get one of those answers.

Mostly I think we’re all a bit sick of seeing the usual factions get attention and the usual factions being ignored. And that creates a cube of wanting something new to create a bit of interest generally rather than if a given release is something you find interesting because it for your army, for example


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 13:22:31


Post by: Gert


It would just feel like a cheap shot at nostalgia points for me, it would only work for a select portion of the community who were actually around when Squats were a thing and I'd wager more people know Squats from memes than as an actual army. Plus there's 100% going to be the whole "GW RUINS SQUATS" because they aren't exactly like the old Squats and nobody wants that.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 13:27:29


Post by: Frazzled


1. They are a meme at this point.
2. Like many other races, one can use existing rules and create a "counts as" force without problem. For ease of convenience, I used to paint the name of the unit on the base. As always, a coolly converted army is usually highly appreciated.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 14:12:57


Post by: jaredb


I don't really care one way or another if we get Squats or not. I don't know how they'll reintroduce them, and what will make them unique from all other factions.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 15:21:51


Post by: Pacific


Dysartes wrote:Quite a few things that made Squats popular in Epic probably wouldn't've worked in the 2nd edition rules framework - super-heavies, the Goliath artillery, Land Train, the flyers, etc. I can sort of see that.

Doesn't mean there weren't things that could've been done, though.


Yes I think so too. The super-big war engines would probably fit nowadays, but not then.

Also can you imagine trying to design/cast a 28mm scale land train in metal. I'm sure they would be going for a lot on eBay now, but it's one area the plastic production (for larger kits) has really helped with.

Voss wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
Voss wrote:
Here's a copy of Jervis talking about it some time ago (not quite 20 years) on Portent (before it was Warseer).

https://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=70533.0

tl;dr; they worked in epic, but in 40k, no muse, no inspiration.


Which is equally lame...


Oh, no. Its much worse. 'Sales suck' is unfortunate, but a legitimate reason for a business to discontinue a product line. Customers aren't buying this product, so we should focus on other things is a real motivation.

'We couldn't figure out how to make dwarf engineers in space interesting' is an utterly baffling thing for one of 'the creatives' to say. As a group, they couldn't figure out how to make them interesting at all... but only for 40k. They were fine in WFB AND, most damning, in Epic 40k. Just not... 28mm 40k? What? And then they reimagined them as the Demiurg for BFG, but again for 40k went... splat. Not because they failed, but because they didn't even try.

It is just not understandable that they could somehow do them justice in the spin-off games, but not in the main game. _Especially_ at the time, when there weren't any real tech experts in the setting.


I think it's important to add a little context here. You have to think there was a fairly strong, negative backlash against the treatment that Squat players had received prior to Jervis writing that letter. This was partly the response in a White Dwarf (which has to be read to be believed, it was just so dismissive) and the fact that they had been ignored completely from an official standpoint.

I think Jervis was quite good at trying to be supportive with the fans and doing his own thing upon occasion, even though GW management themselves didn't care. This included keeping the specialist games going (they were meant to have been benched entirely some time before, but he kept things going and apparently completely off his own back, on top of his other duties). And I think also this letter; I think he knew that there were a lot of aggrieved fans at the time, and this was an attempt to at least try and explain to them.

So it's not a very good excuse (although I think ultimately those guys were probably just doing what they thought was best, and the company was much smaller at the time) but I think its remarkable the fans got it at all.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 21:21:04


Post by: Togusa


I would buy a squat army if given the chance.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 21:31:23


Post by: Galas


At this point to be a squat-hater is as much a meme as wanting squats to return.

GW always does killer money when they bring back new factions, why would they do it worse with space dwarfs.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 21:41:34


Post by: Skinnereal


I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 23:23:10


Post by: Dysartes


So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/06 23:33:58


Post by: Insectum7


 Dysartes wrote:
So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?
Aren't they semi-mind controlled or something? I'm not up on the Tau lore these days, but I thought that there was some shady stuff going on.

Not that it would be hard to add something dark and twisted to Squats. Although I don't think that's really necessary either.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 00:11:01


Post by: Gert


No the T'au aren't mind controlled. There may have been some sort of shenanigans on the Ethereal's part back when the T'au were little more than Bronze Age kingdoms but not now.
The T'au are the glimmer of hope in the darkness for the civilised races, an empire where all can come together under the T'au'va as one. Of course there is a stringent Caste system that prevents interbreeding/marrying and the entire empire is controlled by a self proclaimed ruling class, and one of the latest Spheres of expansion got super Xenophobic and started slaughtering their non-T'au allies, and the ruler of the empire is a sophisticated hologram because the real one got murdered and it would shatter the empire if said ruler was found out to be dead. Oh and the auxiliary races are basically treated as fancy cannon fodder, with at least one being wiped out so a Sept could take over their idealic homeworld.
Wow turns out the T'au are actually pretty suited to 40k. Who'd of thought.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 00:21:17


Post by: ccs


 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


Sounds like questions GW should've taken about 10 minutes to answer 20some years ago.
But in the end? Irrelevant. It's cool models & awesome super-heavy kits - Land Trains, Goliath Cannons, etc that'll sell the faction.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 00:33:58


Post by: cuda1179


Do we have a faction that can do artillery as a theme? (IG tank line doesn't count).


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 00:35:43


Post by: macluvin


 cuda1179 wrote:
Do we have a faction that can do artillery as a theme? (IG tank line doesn't count).


You mean like... an imperial guard Medusa line? Guard can put actual artillery on the table and not just tanks.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 00:44:06


Post by: Hellebore


It's all confirmation bias - that because nothing was done with them that nothing CAN be done.

There is no inherent creative black hole surrounding them.

You know what would be a cool angle? The Tyranids tried a new assimilation method that spread through genestealer cults. A virus that mutated them.

The squat empire was destroyed from within and now they must continue, suspicious of viral cults springing up. Gene testing is mandatory and the population has dwindled due to lower fertility.

They have become embittered and their hatred of the Tyranids is legendary.

They have declared eternal war on the Tyranids and their warfleets ply the stars looking for any excuse to exterminate a planet with even a hint of genestealer infestation.

They refuse to talk to the imperium any more.

Their estranged cousins who survive within the imperium are seen as traitors and shot on site.

So:

Embittered, check
Suspicious check
Partially destroyed check
Angry war footing check
A racial curse that could ultimately kill them all check


Look it's not rocket surgery to come up with this stuff


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 00:45:38


Post by: Mentlegen324


 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


A proud, noble race once ruling a relatively substantial Empire, left to be wiped out by a horrific swarm of alien horrors after being abandoned and forgotten by their allies and mistakenly considered extinct, reduced to a small number of survivors now of little note beyond the curiosity of "Wow, they survived after all?" and holding a bitter grudge at the Imperium for their actions wouldn't be something dark to you?


 Gert wrote:
No the T'au aren't mind controlled. There may have been some sort of shenanigans on the Ethereal's part back when the T'au were little more than Bronze Age kingdoms but not now.
The T'au are the glimmer of hope in the darkness for the civilised races, an empire where all can come together under the T'au'va as one. Of course there is a stringent Caste system that prevents interbreeding/marrying and the entire empire is controlled by a self proclaimed ruling class, and one of the latest Spheres of expansion got super Xenophobic and started slaughtering their non-T'au allies, and the ruler of the empire is a sophisticated hologram because the real one got murdered and it would shatter the empire if said ruler was found out to be dead. Oh and the auxiliary races are basically treated as fancy cannon fodder, with at least one being wiped out so a Sept could take over their idealic homeworld.
Wow turns out the T'au are actually pretty suited to 40k. Who'd of thought.


The Tau used to be a different style of grimdark. It was like the Federation from Star Trek had been thrown into the 40k universe, desperately trying to hold onto their ideals and survive in a horrifying universe where they just didn't fit in with those around them. It was quite a scary idea - for both as an inclusion to the setting, and to them obviously - to have them as a small bright light not realizing how futile it all was and how there was just no place for them. I much prefered that, but now they're basically Imperium-lite with them doing all sorts of terrible things. They still fit originally, they were just a different type of existential horror than the overt darkness of the others.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 00:55:38


Post by: dadx6


 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


I literally have THE BEST GRIMDARK answers to these questions.

From the original source material from the RT days (not gonna quote, but I can if you want) the squats were human colonists near the galactic core, where planets were richer in minerals and had higher density, thus higher gravity. Over time, they mutated into the tough, hardy abhumans known as squats. During the Dark Age of Technology, warp storms caused their planets to lose contact with the larger human empire. During this time period, they formed a trading arrangement with the Eldar (and possibly the orks). Eventually, the Orks attacked the Squats, who appealed to the Eldar for help. The Eldar sniffed and walked away, so the squats suffered a whole lot of lost planets and devastation. As a result, they hate both orks and eldar. Eventually, contact with the Empire was restored, and since the squats had access to quite a few STC fabs, the Empire was super excited to allow them to rejoin. Everyone was... happy. For grimdark definitions of happy.

You can see already they have some tormented soul - a thirst for vengeance against the orks and the Eldar.

But my backstory for CURRENT squats goes like this (again, using the canon from GW): When the Tyranids appeared and started to ravage the Squat homeworlds, the Empire basically used them as a diversion and didn't put any effort into helping them. JUST LIKE THE ELDAR! So, the squats jumped their happy short bodies into spaceships and blasted off for happier territory (probably adjacent to the T'au for all I know). Now they hate EVERYBODY (except the T'au, with whom they have cautious, wary trade agreements) since: the orks tried to kill them all, the Tyranids tried to eat them all, the Eldar betrayed them, the Empire betrayed them, the Necrons want EVERYONE dead, and Chaos just destroys everything. And they'll be happy to bite the T'au's kneecaps off if anyone looks at them cross-eyed.

The Squats 2020 are ANGRY SPACE DWARVES who have Imperial STC technology and have trade for T'au technology and have a score to settle with nearly every other race in the universe. If that's not grimdark enough for you, then, I don't know, maybe put some emo makeup on them and give them facial piercings or something?


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 00:56:43


Post by: H.B.M.C.


The Tau always did terrible things.

"Join the Tau Empire."
"No."
"Please join the Tau Empire."
"I said no."

*orbital bombardment*
"Join the Tau Empire."
"Yeah, ok."
"Thank you for joining us so willingly. You now have a place within the Greater Good. All citizens of the Tau Empire are equal, except actual Tau, who are slightly more equal than you."
"Great..."




Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 01:41:26


Post by: PenitentJake


RE: Grimdark

To me, it's all about Living Ancestor.

They are ancient repositories of technological knowledge- minds artificially preserved in cages of whithering flesh by the younger generations who can't afford to lose the knowledge.

Essentially, EVERY Living Ancestor is a Lesser Emperor on a Lesser Golden Throne. They are brought into battle because it is ony through their knowledge that Squat Armies can hope to prevail, and yet they are so valuable that the army will sacrifice whatever it takes to keep them alive.

Add this to dadx6's take, and I think they can be grimdark enough. I also think the Living Ancestors have the capacity to be the unique rule hook in addition to being cool from a fluff perspective.

And beards. Lots of beards. Like, sculpted into the power armour of the elite troops kinda beards. I love Kharadon Overlord models- same template with a little less steam and a lot more future tech.

Great counterpunch to Dark Mechanicus.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 03:48:53


Post by: Racerguy180


Skinnereal wrote:I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.



You've gotta be joking, a race when the Imperium first encountered them had to have an entirely different mark of armour developed to be able to counter them, sounds pretty freakin grimdark to me. What's so tough that an armour who was able to beat down orks, eldar, everyone else but other marines??? A fething 4.5ft tall chunk of pissed off ancestor worshiping technologically superior to Mars tech abhuman, that's who.

Oh and they had biker gangs based on board Landtrains and aircraft that rivaled eldar.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 05:42:52


Post by: Insectum7


Their Epic equipment is legendary. I remember seeing two Cyclops's deployed for a 10,000 point Epic game, and boy those things did work. I think one of them punched right through a Warlord, Void Shields and all in one go.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 09:08:56


Post by: Flipsiders


 Gert wrote:
Oh and the auxiliary races are basically treated as fancy cannon fodder, with at least one being wiped out so a Sept could take over their idealic homeworld.


If you're talking about the Poctroon, there's never been any proof or even strong suggestion (AFAIK) that the Tau were responsible for that. It's just a fan theory.

The Tau are also definitely better when the Ethereals are responsible for most of the empire's atrocities. It creates an interesting dynamic in which the average Tau soldiers are genuinely nice, upstanding citizens who try their best to avoid their superiors, lest they force them to start another eugenics program.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 11:41:24


Post by: techsoldaten


 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


A proud, noble race once ruling a relatively substantial Empire, left to be wiped out by a horrific swarm of alien horrors after being abandoned and forgotten by their allies and mistakenly considered extinct, reduced to a small number of survivors now of little note beyond the curiosity of "Wow, they survived after all?" and holding a bitter grudge at the Imperium for their actions wouldn't be something dark to you?


The Hobbit did a lot with a small band of Dwarves looking to reclaim their kingdom. I imagine a faction consisting of mercenaries fighting to reclaim their homeworld would translate well into 40k.

Don't know if they deserve to be an actual faction, however. Squats as allies that can be called upon by other forces makes more sense to me.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 13:04:49


Post by: Tyel


 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


Contrary to most responses - yeah, I think this is the big problem.

Sorry but "I think Squats is a pretty cool guy. Eh is slightly shorter and more bearded Cadian and doesnt afraid of anything." is not interesting lore. Its certainly not Grimdark. And I think the fact this is what they ended up with in 1991 is why the faction ceased to exist. I guess I can sort of understand "I want noble upstanding LoTR Dwarves in Spaaace" but its not 40k.

Really I think this divide is going to split what passes for "Squat fans". The lore that exists is very much 1st Edition Fantasy crossover - and sucks as a result.
Make them fully Xenos, give them some fundamental racial curse - and then show how their society works and how its inevitably getting worse over time.

Living Ancestors for instance would be cool if they are fully Golden-throned up, decrepit, beards in jars. If they are just old Dwarf psykers and "oh no losing them would be so bad, how would we cope, oh well never mind" then its kind of lame.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/07 14:43:09


Post by: RaptorusRex


There can be plenty grimdark about Dwarfs/Squats. Keep in mind that Dwarfs in WHFB are psychotically grudge-obsessed. They will destroy a city if they get shorted on payment; there is no Khazalid word for "forgiveness".

And at their heart, they're both dying races. In WHFB, rinn - dwarf women - are generally kept at home. Hence why we don't see them much. Why? Because the birth rates are so low.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/08 02:43:10


Post by: argonak


 dadx6 wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


I literally have THE BEST GRIMDARK answers to these questions.

From the original source material from the RT days (not gonna quote, but I can if you want) the squats were human colonists near the galactic core, where planets were richer in minerals and had higher density, thus higher gravity. Over time, they mutated into the tough, hardy abhumans known as squats. During the Dark Age of Technology, warp storms caused their planets to lose contact with the larger human empire. During this time period, they formed a trading arrangement with the Eldar (and possibly the orks). Eventually, the Orks attacked the Squats, who appealed to the Eldar for help. The Eldar sniffed and walked away, so the squats suffered a whole lot of lost planets and devastation. As a result, they hate both orks and eldar. Eventually, contact with the Empire was restored, and since the squats had access to quite a few STC fabs, the Empire was super excited to allow them to rejoin. Everyone was... happy. For grimdark definitions of happy.

You can see already they have some tormented soul - a thirst for vengeance against the orks and the Eldar.

But my backstory for CURRENT squats goes like this (again, using the canon from GW): When the Tyranids appeared and started to ravage the Squat homeworlds, the Empire basically used them as a diversion and didn't put any effort into helping them. JUST LIKE THE ELDAR! So, the squats jumped their happy short bodies into spaceships and blasted off for happier territory (probably adjacent to the T'au for all I know). Now they hate EVERYBODY (except the T'au, with whom they have cautious, wary trade agreements) since: the orks tried to kill them all, the Tyranids tried to eat them all, the Eldar betrayed them, the Empire betrayed them, the Necrons want EVERYONE dead, and Chaos just destroys everything. And they'll be happy to bite the T'au's kneecaps off if anyone looks at them cross-eyed.

The Squats 2020 are ANGRY SPACE DWARVES who have Imperial STC technology and have trade for T'au technology and have a score to settle with nearly every other race in the universe. If that's not grimdark enough for you, then, I don't know, maybe put some emo makeup on them and give them facial piercings or something?


I love everything about this. instead of space dwarfs, we get Space SLAYER ENGINEERS. RAAAAGE. With TECHNOLOGY.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/08 14:41:58


Post by: Pacific


From my experience, "I hate squats" was a line toted a lot at the time by people who were just towing the party line and repeating what GW had said. They were also a fairly easy target to ridicule, with the name, although as has been proven in this thread (and the many others like it going back over the years) really there is no reason at all that the concept couldn't have worked well.

 Dysartes wrote:
So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?


Great counterpoint there.

Liked Hellebore's comment above - there is no reason at all that a half-decent back story couldn't be rustled up. In fact, it would probably fit in a lot better with the 40k theme than their current charted course of returning Primarchs from the dead and having new technological developments/new marines etc.



Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/08 15:34:07


Post by: Skinnereal


 Dysartes wrote:
So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?
Nope. I don't know much about T'au.
But, just looking at the units, and design of the models, they fill a niche that Squats would have trouble finding these days. T'au units do not seem to overlap any other army nearly as much as much as Squats would.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/08 20:23:51


Post by: RaptorusRex


 Skinnereal wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?
Nope. I don't know much about T'au.
But, just looking at the units, and design of the models, they fill a niche that Squats would have trouble finding these days. T'au units do not seem to overlap any other army nearly as much as much as Squats would.


You don't seem to know much about Squats either.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/08 22:02:02


Post by: ccs


 RaptorusRex wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?
Nope. I don't know much about T'au.
But, just looking at the units, and design of the models, they fill a niche that Squats would have trouble finding these days. T'au units do not seem to overlap any other army nearly as much as much as Squats would.


You don't seem to know much about Squats either.


You could say that they know..... squat.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/08 23:34:25


Post by: Segersgia


I always believe that Squats could work as a true Imperial Rebel faction. I've said it before on this forum, but a bunch of hyper-technological Abhumans who are independent from the main Imperium and worship their own ancestors instead of the Imperial Creed, sounds like something the Imperium would want dead instantly. In the second edition, it was mentioned that the squats seceded from the Imperium.

Let's slowly kill of their Empire in secret. If people start to ask questions, just say they got devoured by Tyranids. Being killed off by your former allies because of their new ideology sounds way more grudgeworthy.

Heck, the Great Rift could even be a reason of their resurgence. A rising Empire in Nihilus sounds quite interesting.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/09 08:57:02


Post by: Skinnereal


 RaptorusRex wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
So by that logic you're advocating to remove the Tau ASAP, Skinnereal?
Nope. I don't know much about T'au.
But, just looking at the units, and design of the models, they fill a niche that Squats would have trouble finding these days. T'au units do not seem to overlap any other army nearly as much as much as Squats would.
You don't seem to know much about Squats either.
Not past late-RT, when I stopped, nearly 30 years ago. So yeah. Mine is all from what I remember from when Squats were initially a thing.

Care to update me?
The overlap with Ad Mech and IG seems obvious, based on what was available to Squats when they were available. There were a couple of oddities (mole mortar), but apart from them...
Squat infantry was armed with Lasguns, but so was everyone else back then.
Now that Ad Mech have the mounted troops, not AM Rough Riders, they have more similarities with the Squat trikes.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/09 12:42:01


Post by: Tyel


I think a lot of people would agree that first generation Tau lore kind of sucked for the reasons issues are being raised on these Squat proposals.

Its also why GW spent the last few edition's worth of updates going "how does a new dynamic Scrappy Doo Empire get on in the 40k universe - oh look, kind of badly. And their society and leaders become progressively meaner and more messed up as a result."


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/09 13:09:03


Post by: Da Boss


I really like OG tau background! But then I also really like OG squat background so maybe the wrong sort of fan?


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/09 13:10:48


Post by: Tyel


 Da Boss wrote:
I really like OG tau background! But then I also really like OG squat background so maybe the wrong sort of fan?


I guess everyone's different.


Do people actually want squats? @ 2021/12/09 19:51:31


Post by: Strg Alt


 Skinnereal wrote:
I think the main problem is that Squats just aren't Grimdark enough.
Where is their tormented racial soul?
Which Chaos force is trying to eradicate them?
How are they grinding onwards towards extinction?

Without any of that, they don't really fit into the 40k universe any more.


I need to mention AoW: Planetfall again. The Russian space dwarves (Dvar) in that setting require constant life support via their metallic suits. This means they are trapped inside of it which is a pretty grim fate. Reminds me of Bane (DC), Mr. Freeze (DC) and the Chaos Warriors of WHFB who all depend or can´t shed their equipment/armour.