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GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 11:00:31


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


How do!

And here it is

In a complete surprise to no-one, they remain very profitable, with sales up once again.

Royalties increased significantly, from £8.7m to £20.1m

There are also comments about their plans going forward.

AoS launch last year was apparently their best Fantasy launch to date.

And I’m gonna quote this bit, as it seems a reversal on fan fiction stuff.

Community continued
Our customers really enjoy user-generated content, and as such we are committed to supporting fans as they create their own Warhammer-related events, videos, articles, podcasts etc. To this end, we are in the process of creating a community outreach team, to work with and support creators and prominent community members who champion the Warhammer hobby outside of our own pages and spaces.


I’ll leave it to other to pick the other bones out

Over the same period, we have also rewarded staff with a discretionary payment and group profit share payments of £35 million, equating to c. £15,000 per staff member on top of their base pay.


Blimey! A £15k bonus is good in anyone’s book!


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 11:22:33


Post by: beast_gts


North America -
The £5 million of back orders at the end of November 2021 will be cleared by early January, hurray!

That's one hell of a backlog!


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 11:24:11


Post by: Olthannon


I wouldn't kick 15k oot of bed like.

Interested to see where they go with the community outreach team, because I believe they did have one back in the day.. Seems that must have been kicked down the wayside some years back.


Brexit
In the period, we have continued to use the new working arrangements adopted following the UK’s exit from the
European Union in January 2021. This has resulted in additional shipping and freight costs of £2 million in the six months
to 28 November 2021 and is included as part of the £5.6 million increase in input and carriage cost increases discussed
earlier in gross margin. In addition, from a cash flow perspective, there are delays in the repayment of VAT from some
European tax authorities


I mean that is fething shocking, the amount of price increase for this colossal balls up.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 11:24:43


Post by: Drakheart


A few interesting tidbits in there:

In terms of media and entertainment, progress continues and we are delighted to have signed up a major LA based
agency to help us. Eisenhorn is in development and the subject of discussions with potential distribution partners. We
have made some solid progress in our writers’ room and have a number of further exciting live action and animated
projects in development. We remain ambitious and patient


and

Our epic Horus Heresy novel series is drawing close to its galaxy changing conclusion. Currently standing at over 7.5
million words, we aren’t aware of a more detailed and in-depth story in any fantasy or science fiction IP.


7.5 million, feel sorry for the guy who had to count them!


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 11:24:52


Post by: Overread


That is a freaking awesome staff bonus!
I'm really glad to hear about fantasy doing so well; and sales and profits being up makes sense. I do think that we will likely see that ease off a touch at some stage; and I think the stock market already shows that investors don't see GW as having any big profit gains coming up (and might even have a dip). However this is all well within high profit regions for GW


Also the community angle I think is in keeping with their current attitude. The trick for them is that the online fan scene has changed in the last 20 years or so. At one time fan content was purely fan content and free; no profits or anything

Today its much easier to profit from them with things like patreon and the line can be blurry because they "aren't buying the video/book/art" they are "supporting the artist buying a coffee" kind of thing. So people don't "think" its the same as buying a product or such.



I think GW's approach sounds like they are trying to take the reins a bit on that side of things and promote it whilst at the same time prevent people from slipping into profiting which then twists GW's arm to having to send out "nasty takedown letters".

GW taking a controlling/guiding hand means avoiding some of those pitfalls; it also means GW can have a more aware state of things and high talent people and might then be able to poach them for their own ends.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 11:25:51


Post by: Chikout


The £15k bonus is across 5 years. Still decent but not exceptional. The best thing about is that everyone got the same bonus, so it helps the lowest paid staff the most.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 11:29:52


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Overread wrote:
That is a freaking awesome staff bonus!
I'm really glad to hear about fantasy doing so well; and sales and profits being up makes sense. I do think that we will likely see that ease off a touch at some stage; and I think the stock market already shows that investors don't see GW as having any big profit gains coming up (and might even have a dip). However this is all well within high profit regions for GW


Also the community angle I think is in keeping with their current attitude. The trick for them is that the online fan scene has changed in the last 20 years or so. At one time fan content was purely fan content and free; no profits or anything

Today its much easier to profit from them with things like patreon and the line can be blurry because they "aren't buying the video/book/art" they are "supporting the artist buying a coffee" kind of thing. So people don't "think" its the same as buying a product or such.



I think GW's approach sounds like they are trying to take the reins a bit on that side of things and promote it whilst at the same time prevent people from slipping into profiting which then twists GW's arm to having to send out "nasty takedown letters".

GW taking a controlling/guiding hand means avoiding some of those pitfalls; it also means GW can have a more aware state of things and high talent people and might then be able to poach them for their own ends.


They also mention they’ve a team ensuring consistency of their own media output. Ensuring it’s inkeeping with the desired tone. One suspects the Community thing might be seeking to extend that. I mean, you can do a lot with their stuff, but as ever some media can go well beyond the pale.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 11:35:20


Post by: Billicus


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


And I’m gonna quote this bit, as it seems a reversal on fan fiction stuff.

Community continued
Our customers really enjoy user-generated content, and as such we are committed to supporting fans as they create their own Warhammer-related events, videos, articles, podcasts etc. To this end, we are in the process of creating a community outreach team, to work with and support creators and prominent community members who champion the Warhammer hobby outside of our own pages and spaces.




I mean, that tracks, the gakky handling of creators during the warhammer+ launch would suggest they didn't have a team to really deal with that side of things so defaulted to "feth it, lets' just be finks about it"


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 12:03:22


Post by: lord_blackfang


In addition, from a cash flow perspective, there are delays in the repayment of VAT from some
European tax authorities


This is super disingenuous. GW basically does fuckall regarding VAT and hopes customers will eat a double charge. Every direct order my group has made all year was the same - GW either does not pay VAT or does not mark it paid anywhere on the packaging or invoice, in fact displays fraudulent costs on the invoice (value sans VAT despite charging VAT at checkout) that make it a pain to get anything through customs. Then a 14 day back and forth with GW customer support to get the VAT they pocketed for no reason refunded.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 12:19:35


Post by: tneva82


 Drakheart wrote:

7.5 million, feel sorry for the guy who had to count them!


Probably that guy is called computer ;-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
In addition, from a cash flow perspective, there are delays in the repayment of VAT from some
European tax authorities


This is super disingenuous. GW basically does fuckall regarding VAT and hopes customers will eat a double charge. Every direct order my group has made all year was the same - GW either does not pay VAT or does not mark it paid anywhere on the packaging or invoice, in fact displays fraudulent costs on the invoice (value sans VAT despite charging VAT at checkout) that make it a pain to get anything through customs. Then a 14 day back and forth with GW customer support to get the VAT they pocketed for no reason refunded.


Well you are first one I have seen claiming they had to pay anything extra. None of orders I have done or people I know had to pay. You order from GW, pay what GW shows price, it comes to you and nothing extra paid.

GW handles that for you.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 12:32:31


Post by: NAVARRO


Sales up, profits, bonuses etc

All good news in GW empire then? Congrats are due.

Wonder what more good surprises does this year brings.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 12:35:45


Post by: TheGoodGerman


tneva82 wrote:
Well you are first one I have seen claiming they had to pay anything extra. None of orders I have done or people I know had to pay. You order from GW, pay what GW shows price, it comes to you and nothing extra paid.

GW handles that for you.

Same for me. But we are both in the EU. The cited text is linked to Brexit, so likely only applies to their EU sales.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 12:40:26


Post by: tneva82


TheGoodGerman wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Well you are first one I have seen claiming they had to pay anything extra. None of orders I have done or people I know had to pay. You order from GW, pay what GW shows price, it comes to you and nothing extra paid.

GW handles that for you.

Same for me. But we are both in the EU. The cited text is linked to Brexit, so likely only applies to their EU sales.


Which applies to that poster seeing he lives(or at least seems to) in EU country.

So we have him saying GW is lying. While others have experience saying otherwise.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 12:45:56


Post by: stonehorse


That is a very generous staff bonus, a far cry from how the company was when I worked for GW back in the 00's.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 12:48:52


Post by: TheGoodGerman


tneva82 wrote:
TheGoodGerman wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Well you are first one I have seen claiming they had to pay anything extra. None of orders I have done or people I know had to pay. You order from GW, pay what GW shows price, it comes to you and nothing extra paid.

GW handles that for you.

Same for me. But we are both in the EU. The cited text is linked to Brexit, so likely only applies to their EU sales.


Which applies to that poster seeing he lives(or at least seems to) in EU country.

So we have him saying GW is lying. While others have experience saying otherwise.

Oh, my bad. Got confused by the tinyness of the flag on my mobile.

But as far as I‘ve seen, they fulfilled an order last year from France, so customs etc really shouldn‘t be an issue. Maybe they still haven‘t lined up some countries for this.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 12:52:13


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Valrak spun the "community outreach team" as GW listening to customers (like that survey we did a bit back). I can't help but be cynical and see it as them attempting to save face over the animators debacle and just being a team who finds ways to use creative people to act as more blatant free advertising.

Games Workshop wrote:Our epic Horus Heresy novel series is drawing close to its galaxy changing conclusion...
I don't believe them.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Wonder what more good surprises does this year brings.
More incremental price increases, no doubt.





GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 13:25:03


Post by: jojo_monkey_boy


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I can't help but be cynical and see it as them attempting to save face over the animators debacle and just being a team who finds ways to use creative people to act as more blatant free advertising.


This is very obviously what it will be. As others have said, the rise of patreon has resulted in people making side-gig to full-gig incomes off of their hobby output. This can be through the production of art, videos, etc. GW would want both to protect the ownership of their brands and also enforce their exclusive right to profit from them.

Frankly, I think we are probably gearing up to another Chapterhouse court case some time in the next few years. They've been going after 3D modellers on patreon and kickstarter, sometimes for things that a lawyer would probably see as a bit of overreach. Eventually someone will call their bluff.

We can only hope that the hobby evolves through the change. In the example of 3D printers, it's an amazing time to be in the hobby as it really opens up a huge amount of choice for custom pieces and vehicles.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 13:29:52


Post by: Gene St. Ealer


Chikout wrote:
The £15k bonus is across 5 years. Still decent but not exceptional. The best thing about is that everyone got the same bonus, so it helps the lowest paid staff the most.


Just to signal boost this, because it seems like everybody's acting like the 15k comes immediately to everyone. 15k over 5 years is not something I'd turn my nose up at... but you have to stay there the 5 years. And is that going to give GW justification for not paying out larger bonuses in the future? I wouldn't be surprised. Still, good for them.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 13:30:20


Post by: Grimskul


 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I can't help but be cynical and see it as them attempting to save face over the animators debacle and just being a team who finds ways to use creative people to act as more blatant free advertising.


This is very obviously what it will be. As others have said, the rise of patreon has resulted in people making side-gig to full-gig incomes off of their hobby output. This can be through the production of art, videos, etc. GW would want both to protect the ownership of their brands and also enforce their exclusive right to profit from them.

Frankly, I think we are probably gearing up to another Chapterhouse court case some time in the next few years. They've been going after 3D modellers on patreon and kickstarter, sometimes for things that a lawyer would probably see as a bit of overreach. Eventually someone will call their bluff.

We can only hope that the hobby evolves through the change. In the example of 3D printers, it's an amazing time to be in the hobby as it really opens up a huge amount of choice for custom pieces and vehicles.


Given the terrible "no models, no rules" policy that came from that, I'm very afraid to see how GW will overreact if they get another Chapterhouse level case where they inevitably feth up and not only lose further goodwill among the playerbase but also how they'll overcorrect based on the results of the case. Let's hope they don't do something dumb like tie their model/SKU molds to NFT's or something lol.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 13:44:31


Post by: Overread


No Models No Rules isn't a bad policy.


It's a policy GW has because of their unique position in the market whereby they are the biggest, but also the most copied/proxied as a result. If they can't copyright everything at the conceptual level and stop people making and selling proxies then they really don't want to put rules into books for models that they aren't going to sell very soon or currently. Otherwise they are leaving money on the table.

Heck with 3D printing now a thing someone can get a model designed and made in a few days and released to the market; a few more days for supports and merchants to pick them up and inside a 2 week period (1 week if you pushed it) you've got 3rd party proxies coming out.




It also, I think, stopped GW from their old style of codex updates where there were ideas for models in them which never game. Tyranids had at least 2 Codex with new hero style models and weapons for gaunts which never appeared from GW. The only way to play was converting/proxying; and every time GW released new Tyranid models it was marred by the fact that "Oh that's cool, but where's my Spike riles or Parasite of Mortaux"




That said Chapterhouse was also when GW found out that their IP legal guy wasn't actually a legal guy. I would hope they learned from that at least. What I've seen of them going after 3D printing is thatin most cases its sensible.

The only ones I see that get confused are merchants who get shut down because they sell a design which isn't IP infringing, under a GW copyright name (or marked as such on the page).
The actual design infringements so far have been pretty specific in what GW goes after; symbols, icons, specific shapes of armour or sculpt.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 13:47:09


Post by: chaos0xomega


Chikout wrote:
The £15k bonus is across 5 years. Still decent but not exceptional. The best thing about is that everyone got the same bonus, so it helps the lowest paid staff the most.


That still works out to 3k GBP/yr. For comparison, my gf works for one of GWs "competitors", her annual bonus was $400 and her "big promotion in recognition of her outstanding work and leadership over the past year" amounted to a 3% raise, which in reality is a pay cut because its less than the rate of inflation, despite the dramatic increase in responsibility she was given.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 14:16:58


Post by: kodos


we are in the process of creating a community outreach team, to work with and support creators and prominent community members who champion the Warhammer hobby outside of our own pages and spaces.

Let us introduce this new team of 10 well paid lawyers and 5 hobby experts to seek out all the hobby content on Youtube, Patreon, FB and other social media platforms to make sure they get the attention they deserve


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 14:22:46


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


When I read, "...equates to [GBP]15,000..." I see it as the average payment, not one that everybody gets. I mean, I can't imagine them giving the executives the same bonus as the guy that puts sprues in boxes.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 14:24:47


Post by: stahly


Good for them, good for us.

But I sorely miss any form of sustainability strategy other than the four lines of lip service at the end.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 14:35:31


Post by: jojo_monkey_boy


 Overread wrote:
It's a policy GW has because of their unique position in the market whereby they are the biggest, but also the most copied/proxied as a result. If they can't copyright everything at the conceptual level and stop people making and selling proxies then they really don't want to put rules into books for models that they aren't going to sell very soon or currently. Otherwise they are leaving money on the table.

Heck with 3D printing now a thing someone can get a model designed and made in a few days and released to the market; a few more days for supports and merchants to pick them up and inside a 2 week period (1 week if you pushed it) you've got 3rd party proxies coming out.


It's a policy because GW refuses to compete on price and would rather remain a luxury brand. They also don't seem to want to compete on quality, which in a lot of cases, they have over the stuff that's pushed out in a couple of weeks. They essentially do not want to compete, which is why they are heavy-handed with lawyers.

 Overread wrote:
The only ones I see that get confused are merchants who get shut down because they sell a design which isn't IP infringing, under a GW copyright name (or marked as such on the page).
The actual design infringements so far have been pretty specific in what GW goes after; symbols, icons, specific shapes of armour or sculpt.


Which, without being a lawyer myself, is where some of the overreach comes in. By all means, they can enforce their trademark names, but some of the aesthetic targets are probably a lot more muddy than GW could reasonably defend. But again, I am not a lawyer and would be happy to be corrected by someone who is.

All of the above is quite ironic given GW's origins as a business that built their IP by copying basically everyone else and creating models for other games.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 14:52:25


Post by: H.B.M.C.


The joke of the Chapterhouse case was always a line from the original AvP movie: "Whoever wins, we lose."

 Overread wrote:
No Models No Rules isn't a bad policy.
There is no "Dakka Dakka Award for Excellence in GW Apologetics", y'know?

"No Models/No Rule" suffers in the same way that most things GW create suffer: Great idea, terrible execution. "No Models/No Rule" should be an expansive thing, something that brought more into the game. Instead it only resulted in contraction, as suddenly things that did not have models were ripped out of the game. It has also led to this utter nonsense. It's why we get so many stupid quadruple-barreled Adjective Nounverb names for units, why Orcs are now Orruks, why Ogres are now Ogors, why Slayers are Fyrslyrs and Elves have extra vowels were once there were none. And it's why the overwhelming majority the model kits are now near-optionless jigsaw puzzles rather than more modular releases.

In the case of that latter one it seems that, finally, 5 years after we went from kits like these two to kits like these two, GW has realised that we want options, both in game and from a modelling perspective, and so hopefully the new Primaris Characters, new Autarch, Guardians and even the Kill Team expansion sprues are examples of a new way forward. Of course, GW are seasoned experts at changing horses mid-race, and there's every chance they'll go even further down the rabbit how they've dug themselves into, so you'll forgive me if I don't hold my breath with this one.

In summary: "No Models/No Rule" would be a good if GW had nothing to do with it.



GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 15:25:09


Post by: NAVARRO


 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:


All of the above is quite ironic given GW's origins as a business that built their IP by copying basically everyone else and creating models for other games.


In some cases Its more Ironic than you think. Now that they have their own games some of us are actually moving away from Gw rulesets spam and buy GW minis to play other games


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 16:22:30


Post by: alphaecho




Rules with no models used to be fun.

I think I went through three different interpretations of Captain Invictus and his plasma blaster, two different versions of Ancient Helveticus and Rogue Trader metal IG were my first gang of Last Chancers.

I had a good stab at a St Praxedes as well.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 17:21:34


Post by: BrianDavion


the community outreach team isn't a suprise. the events of last summer likely exposed to GW the problems inherant in not having a dedicated team to dealing with these kinds of things.

It's easy to forget (and absolutely flabberghasting) that GW is actually pretty far behind on the 8 ball compared to many large companies in terms of internet presence


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 17:34:23


Post by: Overread


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The joke of the Chapterhouse case was always a line from the original AvP movie: "Whoever wins, we lose."

 Overread wrote:
No Models No Rules isn't a bad policy.
There is no "Dakka Dakka Award for Excellence in GW Apologetics", y'know?


I mean you did notice that my example was from the perspective of GW adding models to the rules and never actually making the models in the first place?
Rather than about changes to GW's practice of including or not including optional parts in kits which, whilst related (eg gaunts lost several guns through no models-no-rules) isn't exactly the same thing. That's FAR more to do with how GW designs models and parts for models; how they approach multiple weapon options and other aspects of kit design.


I do agree that in the wake of the court case and the end days of Kirby GW did make "odd" and "consumer unfriendly" choices. Like how Primaris almost certainly went from the next generation of Marine kits into a side by side release with current marines; or how push-fit adjusted how GW sculpted some designs and resulted in less optional weapon/pose kits being released (although that also goes hand in hand with regular assembly, but dynamic pose kits as well). Or how in Age of Sigmar GW went with (and has stuck too) the odd choice to make banners and musicians a "1 per X number of models" instead of "1 per unit" even though "champions" remained the same 1 per unit. Leading to some units (eg Slaanesh Seeker riders) which have more command units in a full unit than actual troopers (they have musician, banner, icon, champion, of which 3 are "per 5 models" and the full unit itself is 15. Ergo 1 champion, 9 command and 5 actual "trooper" models)


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 17:52:53


Post by: Londinium


I find GW to be in a really interesting position right now. They've managed to largely shrug off the impact of both Brexit and Covid (from a macro perspective) and still continue to grow revenues but they must be getting close to maximising what they can earn from the tabletop market unless they break East Asia (unlikely) or saturate the US/Western Europe to the same level as the UK (unlikely).

Who in the fandom is able to keep up with their releases for anything more than one or two game systems at stands? I can't imagine there being much space for any other games to come out, noting The Old World must be nearing and will increase the saturation amongst hardcore fans/squeeze the last revenue out of the existing market. Maybe they might be able to squeeze in a Battlefleet Gothic or another equivalent specialist game at most.

A 3rd party IP game could potentially bring in a lot of new customers but I don't see GW doing that any time soon, given it takes time away from their core company owned lines and they are already running a 3rd party IP line.

Seems to me like the main area of potential revenue growth and the only real avenue for large scale revenue growth left to the company is TV. If the Eisenhorn series continues to progress in development and can get onto Amazon Prime/Netflix, then this could create the mainstream attention to increase sales beyond the traditional market (like video games did) but beyond this it feels like GW is going to struggle, it's current market is already quite saturated.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 17:58:25


Post by: Sacredroach


I suspect that if Eisenhorn actually makes it to Amazon Prime or Netflix, the sheer amount of demand for the novels and then the miniatures will lead a renaissance for GW.

For example: Game of Thrones, the Witcher, Umbrella Academy...each of these were established products until streaming made the interest go nuts.

And will hopefully lead to a well done Horus Heresy movie decology.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 17:59:24


Post by: NAVARRO


New push fit less options dont fit well with the price tag and type of game.
Also bad design is bad I mean shoulder pads split in two or capes split in funny ways etc regardless of multipart vs push fits debate.
Lack of understanding of the material limits regarding fragility, like the so debated new skeleton legs is not acceptable.
So yeah loads of great kits contra balance that stuff but I dont think one method fits all kits types and I think that kits simplified 2 piece designs has more to do with stopping you and me converting things our way and is preparing the way to the future where GW will sell units of 10 orKs with only 1 weapon type and then another unit of same OrKs with another weapon type. Marine formula.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 18:04:01


Post by: Gert


 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
When I read, "...equates to [GBP]15,000..." I see it as the average payment, not one that everybody gets. I mean, I can't imagine them giving the executives the same bonus as the guy that puts sprues in boxes.

GW has 2436 employees. The average is in favour of the lower-paid workers than executives. And IIRC the last time this was in the news, it was made clear that all employees received the same bonus from top to bottom.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 18:04:16


Post by: Overread


I think GW still has plenty of growth room in the USA, how easily they can tap into that is hard to guess at. We know they tried and failed to run local production because they found there just wasn't a skill base in the USA nor a support network for their machines so it meant constantly moving staff and machines around between USA and UK. Now it might be with more contacts and time they might source a better local approach to moving some machines to the USA for production

Then again they've expanded at Nottingham and expanded their overseas warehouse to hold more stock. In theory once shipping and corona work measures are no longer issues for them (and the rest of the world) they can most likely have some head room.

Lets not forget they've a new factory - the only reason they can't keep up right now is they can't run their operation at full capacity due to Corona. So in theory they might still have head-room once things settle.


That said they are more market limited than some other brands. At the same time even if they hit saturation that really only affects increasing profits; their company makes more than a healthy income to run steady for a good many years without seeing fast increase; and that's ignoring tactical price rises for profit/inflation


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 18:48:14


Post by: kodos


I think GW is going to focus on licencing their IPs rather than to expand in new markets

of course there is room to grow for the wargaming and boardgame market, but outside the GW bubble the competition is much stronger and costumers much more sensitive to prizes and quality of gameplay

trying to get into a new market with the usual price increase while at the same time having low quality rules can backfire and their trip to China looks like not working because of that

so the miniature market size is at a comfortable size for GW, no need to change that if you still can make more profit by just selling the IP


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 19:09:58


Post by: Overread


And selling the IP is basically a win win for GW as they take on zero risk with regard to investment and if the other product fails, it just vanishes. Look at all the poor grade Video games that might net a small interested market for themselves, but otherwise just get forgotten in favour of the good releases.

The only time it could backfire is if GW started selling the IP to people who used it rather like Hollywood does - ergo title and a few names but not really sticking to the theme/storyline/lore of the setting. And from what we know GW is much more hands on with that in general.


Which isn't to say every 3rd party item is a perfect depiction of the IP. Gladius and Battlefleet Gothic both tell generally non-cannon stories and take liberties with the IP to make the games "work". But they work within the feel and ethos of the IP and stick to enough of the core that they aren't a problem.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 19:31:16


Post by: kodos


as how often GW themselves changes the background and feeling of the setting, not a real issue if a Hollywood movie gets it wrong, as with the new Edition/Codex the fluff changes anyway and is forgotten (and what people thinks a Space Marines is and what the fluff say it is, is already different for those who play the games)


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 19:41:09


Post by: Daedalus81


 kodos wrote:
we are in the process of creating a community outreach team, to work with and support creators and prominent community members who champion the Warhammer hobby outside of our own pages and spaces.

Let us introduce this new team of 10 well paid lawyers and 5 hobby experts to seek out all the hobby content on Youtube, Patreon, FB and other social media platforms to make sure they get the attention they deserve


Considering the number of youtube channels they brought down in the past 3 months I wouldn't be surprised!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sacredroach wrote:
I suspect that if Eisenhorn actually makes it to Amazon Prime or Netflix, the sheer amount of demand for the novels and then the miniatures will lead a renaissance for GW.

For example: Game of Thrones, the Witcher, Umbrella Academy...each of these were established products until streaming made the interest go nuts.

And will hopefully lead to a well done Horus Heresy movie decology.


Wheel of Time departs from the books a lot, but that Amazon money made for a good show so far.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 20:04:26


Post by: streetsamurai


Really surprised that AOS was supposedly their best fantasy release by a wide margin. seems like it was a bit of a flop considering all the unsold boxes we heard about. I wonder if it's corporate talk or if the sales were indeed a lot strongerthan it seems. A shame that they don't show sales by system.

Congrats to GW for the constant growth, and the employee bonus is a realy nice touch


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 20:14:38


Post by: Overread


The only real flop was that they undersold, however don't forget

1) 3rd parties were selling boxes not because they flat out weren't selling, but because they weren't selling fast enough. They were only clearing stock to clear inventory money and some of that was only a few weeks after the launch. That's insanely fast discounting for almost any market and I think was more sparked by the current climate shutting down many of those stores and limited in-person shopping and such through the year as well as over-buying.

2) The overbuying/supply was clearly based on Indomitus from the year before and it somewhat backfired; but considering its an edition set so has at least 3-4 years before its "totally out of date" its not a bad run and GW should't lose money on it.

3) Even if it under-sold as a set, it still sold really well; plus they mentioned it as an annual block of sales so they include everything else; one set not outselling isn't that bad when the whole range is selling strong.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 21:39:08


Post by: kodos


question is, does GW count copies going to 3rd party stores as sales?
I guess so because they don't have the data if the store sold all his copies unless they order more


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 21:41:30


Post by: Sacredroach


Also on the Dominion front, many folks probably realized that they needed far fewer figures and that 2 Dominion box sets were sufficient given the new reinforcement rules.

The side effect is that getting into either Stormcast or Orcs has a very low entry price.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 21:44:03


Post by: Azreal13


 kodos wrote:
question is, does GW count copies going to 3rd party stores as sales?
I guess so because they don't have the data if the store sold all his copies unless they order more


They absolutely count them, they're recorded separately from direct sales (and are called, unsurprisingly, indirect sales) but they still count.

They basically then don't give a gak what happens to them, if the guy has a storage unit full of them then it doesn't matter, from the GW perspective the units are sold.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 21:44:11


Post by: Olthannon


I think if Eisenhorn is done right it will be huge and I think that's something they are counting on. You have to assume they'll keep a tight grip on it because of the potential to feth it up so highly.

I would guess the success of total war in bringing in non warhammer strategy players has made them realise other media can work in their favour.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 22:05:16


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Azreal13 wrote:
They absolutely count them, they're recorded separately from direct sales (and are called, unsurprisingly, indirect sales) but they still count.

They basically then don't give a gak what happens to them, if the guy has a storage unit full of them then it doesn't matter, from the GW perspective the units are sold.
So it's like the comic book industry?

"Look how many copies we sold*!!!"


*to distributors...


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 22:19:05


Post by: Overread


I mean yeah because Distributors will only buy what they can sell. Yes GW can strongarm some sales onto them, but not forever. If the products don't sell well then 3rd parties can and will drop them; esp for Warhammer.

GW is not in the same position say the card games are in. I would imagine that GW can only strong-arm the odd product to 3rd parties, eg Edition Starters and such.



Otherwise the 3rd parties would start selling at-cost or not at all all the time and GW would fast see their 3rd party sales diminish. It's clearly a balancing act.






I don't know about comics, but that market is totally different.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 22:29:42


Post by: streetsamurai


 kodos wrote:
question is, does GW count copies going to 3rd party stores as sales?
I guess so because they don't have the data if the store sold all his copies unless they order more


Yes they do. Probably explains a lot


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 22:35:50


Post by: JohnnyHell


Good numbers again. Guess the “boycott” was the hot air we suspected



GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/12 22:44:35


Post by: Laughing Man


 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good numbers again. Guess the “boycott” was the hot air we suspected


BuT tHeIr StOcK pRiCeS!


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 07:16:23


Post by: kodos


 Overread wrote:
I mean yeah because Distributors will only buy what they can sell. Yes GW can strongarm some sales onto them, but not forever. If the products don't sell well then 3rd parties can and will drop them; esp for Warhammer

the option usually for 3rd party is to drop GW or buy the requested "core" products each month no matter if they can sell them or not

like, you know the new Start Collectiong boxes are going to sell well, to be able to buy them at distributer price you need to buy the specific amount of 40k and AoS Starter Boxes as well (and you are limited on the discount you can give on online sales)


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 09:57:15


Post by: Spoletta


It doesn't matter how those indirect copies are sold.
They are being sold, and they are being sold in a way that makes profits for both GW and the distributors. There's no reason not to count them in the report.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 10:16:57


Post by: Sunno


GW records more profits

.......slightly overweight man with faux accent jumping onto youtube to tell us...

gW iS DyINg ANd wE aRE wINning GUys

in 3.......2.......1.......


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 10:25:57


Post by: ccs


 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good numbers again. Guess the “boycott” was the hot air we suspected


{shrugs} What can I say, the eevil toy company kept making models I like.

If they'd just stop doing that my spending would decrease dramatically - (maybe) some paint now & then and the odd Codex/Battletome. Maybe a WD issue once in a while.
They seem to realize this though....


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 10:58:48


Post by: kodos


Spoletta wrote:
It doesn't matter how those indirect copies are sold.
They are being sold, and they are being sold in a way that makes profits for both GW and the distributors. There's no reason not to count them in the report.

this is not the point, it is how GW defines "best selling Fantasy release" as of course it is the best sold one if there were more copies than for any other fantasy box before and it does not matter if it sits on the shelf of 3rd party stores and GW itself sells it of at 50% discount



GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 11:45:21


Post by: Flinty


It’s a fair point, but this is a report into GWs financial performance over the past 6 months. It’s not an analysis of statistics relating to popularity in terms of games getting played. An industry wide survey of that information for all manufacturers would be amazing, it is probably difficult to achieve.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 11:57:59


Post by: Overread


 Flinty wrote:
It’s a fair point, but this is a report into GWs financial performance over the past 6 months. It’s not an analysis of statistics relating to popularity in terms of games getting played. An industry wide survey of that information for all manufacturers would be amazing, it is probably difficult to achieve.


It would be hard indeed. I know GW's past surveys that they've sent out have included questions on when people last gamed and such, but that's pretty much data without any geographic reference. The hard part in sampling games actually played is tapping into the market who play at home or in private groups and such. Ergo the whole segment that's often "off grid". Not marketed, or shown off and just happens in private.

That said I'd wager the last two years would give really bad data for that because of all the lockdowns and such.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 12:25:40


Post by: Geifer


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Games Workshop wrote:Our epic Horus Heresy novel series is drawing close to its galaxy changing conclusion...
I don't believe them.


Which part? Killing the golden goose? Yeah, hard to believe. I thought there was talk of Scouring to continue the series, but not sure if that has any substance or was just wishlisting.

I'm pretty sure GW threatened us with telling what really happened at the end of the Heresy when they started the siege of Terra series. There may actually be change on the wind in that regard...


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 12:53:23


Post by: techsoldaten


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
They absolutely count them, they're recorded separately from direct sales (and are called, unsurprisingly, indirect sales) but they still count.

They basically then don't give a gak what happens to them, if the guy has a storage unit full of them then it doesn't matter, from the GW perspective the units are sold.
So it's like the comic book industry?

"Look how many copies we sold*!!!"


*to distributors...


To be clear, there's nothing dishonest about this metric.

Unless your company sells directly to consumers, measuring sales to distributors is a valid metric. Distributors don't buy your product to store it in warehouses. They buy units to sell to customers and there's no incentive for them to not sell.

I'd be more skeptical of any public company's direct sales figures. They have incentives to overstate / understate them, depending on what they want to see happen with the stock price. Apple stands out here, it's hard to square their manufacturing and sales figures.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 17:55:36


Post by: aka_mythos


 Azreal13 wrote:
 kodos wrote:
question is, does GW count copies going to 3rd party stores as sales?
I guess so because they don't have the data if the store sold all his copies unless they order more


They absolutely count them, they're recorded separately from direct sales (and are called, unsurprisingly, indirect sales) but they still count.

They basically then don't give a gak what happens to them, if the guy has a storage unit full of them then it doesn't matter, from the GW perspective the units are sold.
I haven't read the most recent report but I think its interesting to read GW's financial statements to investors to see the breakdown. I don't know if its still the case but for a while it broke down to 1/3 of sales by revenue were sales to consumers, 1/3 GW selling to wholesalers, and 1/3 as GW selling to retailers. And over time it fluctuates by about 10%-20% between those 1/3. But by sales volume sales to consumers only represented about 20% of their volume of product sold, while its been about 40% and 40% for retailers and wholesalers. Again it fluctuates.

To say GW doesn't care, might be overstating things a tiny bit. They don't care until they do. I've heard it a number of times from different retailers, that to get a retailer to setup an account directly with GW they'll buy back older unsold product at a percent that the retailer may have originally bought through wholesalers. GW puts a lot of emphasis on its brand image, so while sales and profit are important. GW really doesn't want to oversell and ever give the appearance their product doesn't sell.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 18:10:34


Post by: Toofast


 JohnnyHell wrote:
Good numbers again. Guess the “boycott” was the hot air we suspected


I remember a "boycott MW2" group on Steam awhile back. On release day, if you looked at the group, 75% of the members were "online: playing CoD MW2". Every time I hear a call for boycotts, I think of how effective that one was. Even the people organizing the boycott didn't follow through.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 18:28:07


Post by: Overread


Lets face it, a lot of "boycott" calls on geeky subjects are just creators keen to cause drama because its what their youtube/twitch/kik/whatever fanbase expects of them; or because they want to get a bigger fanbase and posting edgy stuff like that gets attention.


I'm sure if you started a "Boycott GW " thread on Dakka you could raise pages of attention VERY quickly.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 19:58:16


Post by: Grimskul


Oh yeah, much easier to complain online and look hip with the crowd than it is to actually follow through when there's no real way to hold people accountable.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 20:16:37


Post by: Mario


aka_mythos wrote:To say GW doesn't care, might be overstating things a tiny bit. They don't care until they do. I've heard it a number of times from different retailers, that to get a retailer to setup an account directly with GW they'll buy back older unsold product at a percent that the retailer may have originally bought through wholesalers. GW puts a lot of emphasis on its brand image, so while sales and profit are important. GW really doesn't want to oversell and ever give the appearance their product doesn't sell.
They had a similar issue ages ago when online stores were selling GW stuff at a discount and GW didn't like that and implemented (or wanted to implement, depending on your region) all those rules for how online only stores were allowed to sell their stock of GW products.

GW's stuff has a good profit margin (it's expensive enough even then) and online retailers wanted to use that to their advantage but GW was worrying about B&M retailers who were losing customers while they were paying rent for spaces where these customer/people were playing but who also bought all, or most, their stuff online. Or that was at least one of GW's main arguments while they were putting their own stores next to independent stores with high sales to siphon that off (and according to some these store were also conveniently getting supply issues at the same time as GW showed up in their neighbourhood).

The other one, and for GW more important problem, was that perpetual discounts made their product look less like the Porsche of the miniature industry that they wanted to feel like.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/13 20:39:20


Post by: Overread


Mario wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:
The other one, and for GW more important problem, was that perpetual discounts made their product look less like the Porsche of the miniature industry that they wanted to feel like.


It's also a problem because GW has a very abnormal product in todays market. A lot of products today come out and within 1-2 years they are being replaced with new fancier versions. 5-10 years and the product is gone from the market, its ancient and fully replaced with something new. So a lot of products de-value very quickly.

GW isn't like that - they've kits 20 years old that have increased in value or at least remained (relative to incomes and other stuff) mostly the same value.

Their products are very long lasting, so they don't want stores to be steep discounting products all over the place for "hot fast sales" because GW hasn't got a new kit coming out next month to replace that kit. Those Aelf Archers are going to be on the shelf for year upon year and GW can't afford to have them slashed in price over and over.




GW aren't alone either, the whole model market follows pretty much the same pattern with the exception of STLs and 3D printing where the race to bottom has pretty much already happened ni the last 2 years. Patreons encourage insane value for money as to Kickstarters. You can quite literally buy an entire army's worth of STLs for less than £10. Yes on top of that you have to buy resin, printer etc.... so its not quite that insanely cheap as a whole process; but its still insanely cheap for the design work.

In the end any model company that has stock being slashed in price is often an unhealthy sign; its like Privateer Press having to clear stock and inventories and dumping them onto the market fast; retailers stripping out stock because it won't sell fast enough or just won't sell at all. It's not healthy if it happens all the time with your products. The wargame and miniature market just isn't geared up for mass market product shifting. Heck GW's attempt at that - original Age of Sigmar - got huge backlashes against it (and that was before they'd even got up to speed with the churn and burn release cycle of models on newer things).


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 10:09:39


Post by: Whirlwind


 Overread wrote:
Lets face it, a lot of "boycott" calls on geeky subjects are just creators keen to cause drama because its what their youtube/twitch/kik/whatever fanbase expects of them; or because they want to get a bigger fanbase and posting edgy stuff like that gets attention.


I'm sure if you started a "Boycott GW " thread on Dakka you could raise pages of attention VERY quickly.


It's trends that are important. There will always be naysayers on any item. However, it is just as bad to say that it has no effect compared as saying there was an effect. The report is simply there to 'pacify' investors so they don't throw out the CEO etc. There's increasing concern that these reports and when they are audited are less sound than they seem after a number of high profile cases of 'profitable' companies suddenly collapsing over a couple of years (not that I am saying GW is in that position but just that statements should be taken with some caution).

It is really changes relative to underlying trends that you want to compare to because that gives a better picture of what might be going on

At a high level:-

Revenue = + 6.4%
Operating Profit (exc royalties) = -16.3%* (-10.3%* after factoring increased capital spend)
Royalties = +235%*

*I've factored in an even split on the changes to constant currency here.

However we should compare this to inflation overall as to stand still you want growth to be at least equal to inflation otherwise inflationary growth is just masking lower sales. [On an aside this is always worth considering when you get given a country's growth as the same principles apply to consider whether the country is growing or just paying more for the same (or less) stuff]
For the UK this stands at 6.1% (Retail Price Index excluding mortgages for October)

As such overall GW revenue is pretty aligned with inflationary growth (basically standing still). However profit from the 'core' business is significantly down. This may be for a number of factors - GW are swallowing extra costs at the moment and not passing onto consumers; capital investment (about £5m); less units sold per item (i.e. the actual cost to design per 'box' is higher).

We must also be careful about generalised statements of success. AoS being the greatest fantasy release is just a statement with no facts, it doesn't explain over what period, whether by units or sales (if the last box set was £80 and the new version £100 you would expect a sales increase); what were the sales like over a longer time frame (were there no sales 3 months before which offsets the increase).

Even the £3,000 per year bonus has been inflated to sound better than it is (because a lot of employees are on low wages anyway - there is no guarantee so you can't base a mortgage on it etc).

Hence both sides could argue their own point of view and claim victory over a boycott vs it never really happened. Without knowing the real figures we'll never really know.

My greatest caution would be the decrease in profits - a decrease of 10% is quite substantial and shows significant headwinds - Brexit was specifically referred to in the report and it isn't fully implemented yet - for example rules of origin are only just being implemented, the potential additional quality standards that will have to be met (needing to validate against both CE and UKCA quality standards etc). The reality is that without the increased royalties there would certainly be questions being asked (which then does explain GWs rush to try and capture some of that market). They should expect the TW:WIII to help here but if the core business continues to see lower profits then they will need the royalties to increase to compensate.





GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 14:53:54


Post by: Derek H


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
They absolutely count them, they're recorded separately from direct sales (and are called, unsurprisingly, indirect sales) but they still count.

They basically then don't give a gak what happens to them, if the guy has a storage unit full of them then it doesn't matter, from the GW perspective the units are sold.
So it's like the comic book industry?

"Look how many copies we sold*!!!"


*to distributors...


Like most industries. It's really rather rare for companies to sell goods to distributors or retailers on a sale or return basis.

Though it does happen occasionally and GW has some schemes for retailers where they sign up to get a discount in return for letting GW determine exactly what they have to stock (they can buy extra stuff if they want, but base stock levels are determined by GW) . They have a fixed range of products they have to keep in stock all the time, while some other products cycle in and out. If a retailer in this position has something still in stock after it has been cycled out GW take it back and give the retailer a credit. It's a very limited form of sale or return.



GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 17:41:47


Post by: frankelee


It would seem you can't really glean much from the report's numbers. They're bragging about stuff without hard data, and otherwise not claiming anything horrible has gone wrong. What's clear is they don't seem to be going through any great collapse, or any great growth.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 18:33:21


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


If it helps, in the U.K. such reports have to be independently verified?


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 21:22:40


Post by: Mario


 Overread wrote:
Spoiler:
Mario wrote:

The other one, and for GW more important problem, was that perpetual discounts made their product look less like the Porsche of the miniature industry that they wanted to feel like.


It's also a problem because GW has a very abnormal product in todays market. A lot of products today come out and within 1-2 years they are being replaced with new fancier versions. 5-10 years and the product is gone from the market, its ancient and fully replaced with something new. So a lot of products de-value very quickly.


GW isn't like that - they've kits 20 years old that have increased in value or at least remained (relative to incomes and other stuff) mostly the same value.

Their products are very long lasting, so they don't want stores to be steep discounting products all over the place for "hot fast sales" because GW hasn't got a new kit coming out next month to replace that kit. Those Aelf Archers are going to be on the shelf for year upon year and GW can't afford to have them slashed in price over and over.

Spoiler:



GW aren't alone either, the whole model market follows pretty much the same pattern with the exception of STLs and 3D printing where the race to bottom has pretty much already happened ni the last 2 years. Patreons encourage insane value for money as to Kickstarters. You can quite literally buy an entire army's worth of STLs for less than £10. Yes on top of that you have to buy resin, printer etc.... so its not quite that insanely cheap as a whole process; but its still insanely cheap for the design work.

In the end any model company that has stock being slashed in price is often an unhealthy sign; its like Privateer Press having to clear stock and inventories and dumping them onto the market fast; retailers stripping out stock because it won't sell fast enough or just won't sell at all. It's not healthy if it happens all the time with your products. The wargame and miniature market just isn't geared up for mass market product shifting. Heck GW's attempt at that - original Age of Sigmar - got huge backlashes against it (and that was before they'd even got up to speed with the churn and burn release cycle of models on newer things).
I think I corrected the runaway quote tags under the spoilers (you just have to remove the other user's starting quote tag).

Are GW actually that different? I remember reading years ago (like a decade or so) that most of their products sell over 90% of their numbers in the first three months or so which is rather similar to most video games where the sales numbers are front loaded even more (I think I remember reading one to two months). Anything older than that is apparently mostly (besides the standard Marines stuff like Rhinos, Tactical boxes, and a few others) just sitting on the shelves. Video games discount those games heavily and multiple times (whenever there's a new Steam sale) while GW just keeps selling stuff at the same price. That kinda being one of the reasons they focused so much on the model company idea and them not caring too much about their games before Roundtree got into power. People mostly bought new releases so churning through new stuff at a faster rate is good for short term revenue while the constant change made things a bit more unstable on the gaming side of things.

Individual kits might keep their value on the second hand market as GW increased prices on the new stuff (so the old stuff looked cheaper than that even at full price) but that was more of a reflection of the sticker GW put on their products. Like, for example, Apple who kept old hardware that hadn't gotten a new version in years at the same price it had when it was brand new (while being years old tech by that time). GW even increased the price.

I think we've seen as few examples of frames from the same old moulds getting a price increase with new cover art while being otherwise the same inside simply because GW prices changed quicker than their product line due to how they released work (with this "one army after another" focus). That goes even beyond Apple's approach of keeping the price constant for old PCs/gadgets that haven't been replaced yet.

When it comes to STLs for 3D printing it feels like these companies are going for a MAAS system (Model as a service, like SAAS: Software as a service). As they get more Patreon subscribers they hire more people to sculpt those models while keeping a constant profit margin. And if they can make the pile you get at the end of the month bigger they can lure more people into subscribing which can increase their output. But I've also seen them breaking up those subscription piles into smaller chunks and sold, more or less, like regular miniatures. They just don't care how many you print of it. You kinda pay for one copy but can have as many as you want (as long as you print them yourself). It's another revenue stream from people who only want a few models and don't feel like subscribing to everything (of course, at a higher overall cost if they were to buy everything a subscriber gets).

As a business they give up the higher revenue from owning the whole stack, from design to production, but gain more freedom and flexibility by not needing to pay for the whole manufacturing infrastructure that supports this. They just sell you files, no guessing about how much to stock, no logistics to worry about, no real estate rent to consider. The subscription also buys them some stability in contrast to having to bet on miniatures selling well enough with each new release. Once they have a big enough spread of miniatures and/or armies they might start writing/selling rules systems too. Some already include D&D rules for some models as they sell miniature batches that fit in both types of games: RPGs and skirmish wargaming rules.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 21:35:36


Post by: JWBS


Mario wrote:
I remember reading years ago (like a decade or so) that most of their products sell over 90% of their numbers in the first three months or so..

I read this too (on this forum) and I instantly disbelieved it. People in this hobby are often complaining about how expensive it is, but if this is the case, how is it that 9/10ths of people can afford everything they want, exactly when they want (apparently on release week)?? I've been in and out of this hobby for nigh on three decades, as a young child with no money and as a grown man with a relatively large hobby budget and still there's stuff that I want to buy but I don't yet own, and I'm not even that much of a price complainer. I actually buy quite a lot of GW miniatures. I really just can't believe that almost everyone else buys almost everything they ever want on the day of release and GW don't sell any additional units of that kit. This theory makes no sense at all.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 21:50:56


Post by: Overread


I can well believe that there's a peak of sales volume during the first few months of a new kit going on sale. However total sales is a hard one for me too.

I could believe it for an army like Ossiarchs which had a slightly luke-warm reception and haven't seen any major kit or battletome updates since. But at the same time its a super new army; it hasn't had a big battletome update or a second wave of models released. Heck I bet the Lumineth sold a LOT of models when their second wave landed and that a good portion were first wave models.


Even if models sell 90% in their first few months, they are still on the market 10 years later (in most cases). Plus don't forget if GW slashed prices on older kits without replacing them, eventually whatever army had the first release would become the cheapest army to collect, which would likely result in them becoming very very popular simply because they'd be cheaper than all the others. New armies would have to have insane rules imbalances to sell because who will spend £30 on 10 troops when they can spend £10 on 10 troops for an army that's 4 years old and still has great sculpts.



IT just doesn't work for GW's model of business. IT doesn't really work for the entire wargame market. Which, whilst the actual price points vary, is why we rarely see models going down in price. Heck Pendragon have a thread with a small price rise being announced only in the last few days.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 21:54:43


Post by: McDougall Designs


 Overread wrote:
I think GW still has plenty of growth room in the USA, how easily they can tap into that is hard to guess at. We know they tried and failed to run local production because they found there just wasn't a skill base in the USA nor a support network for their machines so it meant constantly moving staff and machines around between USA and UK. Now it might be with more contacts and time they might source a better local approach to moving some machines to the USA for production




How is that true when Wargames Atlantic just moved all plastics production to the states?


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 22:31:50


Post by: kodos


This is what we got from a GW interview once, and actual statement was that if a plastic kit does not make it its investment back in the opening weekend, it never will

that kits for an army have their highest sales during a codex release and before and after that the sales drop to 0 is known from the Chapterhouse case (with the exception of the tactical Marines box, which always sells)

than there was also the statement that because of those things GW does not want people to save their money for a specific release but have impulse purchases on the weekend of release

but if this is the case, how is it that 9/10ths of people can afford everything they want, exactly when they want (apparently on release week)?? I've been in and out of this hobby for nigh on three decades,
this is a tricky thing, but that is why poorhammer, papercraft, 3D printing and 3rd party model maker are a thing, because there are not many who can afford to keep buying


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 22:47:07


Post by: Overread


McDougall Designs wrote:
 Overread wrote:
I think GW still has plenty of growth room in the USA, how easily they can tap into that is hard to guess at. We know they tried and failed to run local production because they found there just wasn't a skill base in the USA nor a support network for their machines so it meant constantly moving staff and machines around between USA and UK. Now it might be with more contacts and time they might source a better local approach to moving some machines to the USA for production




How is that true when Wargames Atlantic just moved all plastics production to the states?


Well the USA is huge so it might be GW just picked the wrong bit; or perhaps since then the industrial situation in the USA has changed. Or it could be that GW uses very specific plastics machinery that just isn't used in the USA so there were no people experienced with their machines and way of working; whilst Wargames Atlantic use a different method/machines/equipment or such

kodos wrote:This is what we got from a GW interview once, and actual statement was that if a plastic kit does not make it its investment back in the opening weekend, it never will

that kits for an army have their highest sales during a codex release and before and after that the sales drop to 0 is known from the Chapterhouse case (with the exception of the tactical Marines box, which always sells)

than there was also the statement that because of those things GW does not want people to save their money for a specific release but have impulse purchases on the weekend of release

but if this is the case, how is it that 9/10ths of people can afford everything they want, exactly when they want (apparently on release week)?? I've been in and out of this hobby for nigh on three decades,
this is a tricky thing, but that is why poorhammer, papercraft, 3D printing and 3rd party model maker are a thing, because there are not many who can afford to keep buying


I can appreciate that GW wants to make back the investment in a mould fast, that makes very good sense. I could see that "A model makes back 90% of its investment in the first 3 months" being a statistic that is more believable. Meanwhile if a model doesn't make its investment back in that time then its potentially a sign that

a) The model is a sculpt that people just do not like

b) The army the model is a part of is very unpopular.

Both of which mean the model will still sell, just not very fast and not within a financial period that considers the money recovered significant even if it eventually does cover its investment costs. I could well see it being a metric GW uses to adjust its future forecasting of production; eg if a model isn't making its investment back after 2 months or so they might well look at why. Is the army just unpopular; is the army all old models with one new model; is the army "small" and not attracting interest because of its limited visual and mechanic offerings compared to others etc... Ergo those numbers might be, for example, what makes GW give Lumineth a second wave much earlier and larger than many other armies in order to recover the market interest and thus boost sales across the whole range etc...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kodos wrote:

but if this is the case, how is it that 9/10ths of people can afford everything they want, exactly when they want (apparently on release week)?? I've been in and out of this hobby for nigh on three decades,
this is a tricky thing, but that is why poorhammer, papercraft, 3D printing and 3rd party model maker are a thing, because there are not many who can afford to keep buying


Having dabbled in 3D printing its REALLY not a "poor mans warhammer" approach that its touted as. The setup cost of getting going runs you £100s even if you get a cheaper printer. You can easily spend £3-400 just getting started once you add together the printer, accessories, resin, STLs.

I would argue its only "cheaper" once you are looking at printing a second army or printing a very big first army. Once you are "running" the live costs are lower with the only big single costs being a bottle of resin (1-2 boxes of models and one bottle will print many times that) and replacement consumables with the greatest cost being a new LCD.

Long term its cheaper, but the actual start-up costs are way higher.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 23:07:57


Post by: kodos


those were not meant to be 1, poorhammer is something very different from papercraft or 3D printing

and 3D printing is much cheaper for 40k if you look at GWs prices (even the start up costs are lower than going fresh into 40k with GW stuff)
if you look at Wargaming/Tabletop in general, it is not and the start up costs are way too high compared to getting a starter army for a non-GW game



GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 23:18:40


Post by: alextroy


 Gert wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
When I read, "...equates to [GBP]15,000..." I see it as the average payment, not one that everybody gets. I mean, I can't imagine them giving the executives the same bonus as the guy that puts sprues in boxes.

GW has 2436 employees. The average is in favour of the lower-paid workers than executives. And IIRC the last time this was in the news, it was made clear that all employees received the same bonus from top to bottom.
The quote about GW promising £15,000 over the next five years is incorrect. Here is the actual quote from the report:
We are committed to ensuring that all staff are paid fairly for the job they perform and to rewarding our staff for their considerable contribution. We always manage the business for the long term and aim to get the right mix of annual pay rises and variable cash rewards. In the last five years we have increased fixed base pay on average of 3% per year, a total of £20 million over the period. Over the same period, we have also rewarded staff with a discretionary payment and group profit share payments of £35 million, equating to c. £15,000 per staff member on top of their base pay.
As noted in the highlighted text, over the last 5 years GW has increased base pay by an average of 3% per year and given profit sharing around £15,000 per staff member. I expect the "c" has more to do with employment status (part-time versus full-time) than base salary.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 23:20:32


Post by: Gert


 kodos wrote:
those were not meant to be 1, poorhammer is something very different from papercraft or 3D printing
and 3D printing is much cheaper for 40k if you look at GWs prices (even the start up costs are lower than going fresh into 40k with GW stuff)
if you look at Wargaming/Tabletop in general, it is not and the start up costs are way too high compared to getting a starter army for a non-GW game

£65 Starter Set vs £200 3D Printer.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/14 23:30:18


Post by: drbored


GW also creates a product that is part of a different sort of human habit: hobby.

iirc, two certain industries tend to do very well, even in depressions: alcohol and hobby. People aren't willing to give up their vices, even when money is tight.

I also know that GW thought fully that Covid was going to ruin their sales, and they pulled back on a LOT of things through the past year to brace for it, but then ended up making record profits regardless. In spite of shipping issues, in spite of slower releases and backlogs, in spite of people in many places not even able to play with the games.

Now, we hope that GW will have the wherewithal and opportunity to put this money towards making more models, especially for the factions that really need it.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 00:54:11


Post by: Derek H


 frankelee wrote:
It would seem you can't really glean much from the report's numbers. They're bragging about stuff without hard data, and otherwise not claiming anything horrible has gone wrong. What's clear is they don't seem to be going through any great collapse, or any great growth.


Which is quite good in the current economic climate. Dividends are up.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 02:48:02


Post by: Baragash


When I was a red shirt in 2001, the cell (basically area, usually about 6 stores in close proximity) manager gave the timeframe for a kit making the bulk of it's sales as the first 3 weeks.

I was told similar by Mantic in 2017.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 03:46:04


Post by: JWBS


Sounds like bollocks to me. There would be little point in keeping a product in inventory past three months if that were the case. May as well just design, produce, and release another, if the profit is 10x, 'old' (aka three weeks) vs new.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 04:49:30


Post by: Azreal13


That only makes sense if you don't know how, well, anything, works.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 04:52:41


Post by: JWBS


Okay do you want to, well, explain, how, it works?


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 04:57:36


Post by: Azreal13


Not really, that you're suggesting it means it's already a lost cause, I'll use my energy for something more constructive.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 05:00:45


Post by: JWBS


Yeah thought so.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 05:08:09


Post by: Azreal13


Oh no, you've outwitted me! I will now commit to writing the lengthy essay needed to address all the flaws in your plan.

I'll edit this post, keep hitting refresh until it appears.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 05:12:28


Post by: JWBS


What plan? I'm not making any plan. Are you alright? No, don't answer that, focus on that essay.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 05:16:48


Post by: Azreal13


JWBS wrote:
There would be little point in keeping a product in inventory past three months if that were the case. May as well just design, produce, and release another


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 05:18:29


Post by: JWBS


??


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 07:07:36


Post by: tneva82


JWBS wrote:
Sounds like bollocks to me. There would be little point in keeping a product in inventory past three months if that were the case. May as well just design, produce, and release another, if the profit is 10x, 'old' (aka three weeks) vs new.


And would that make appearance of healthy live game for new blood?

And sales are sales with only expense being storage. Box itself is free. So the trickle sales profit is box price-cost of shelf space.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 09:03:24


Post by: frogert_poj


I would imagine that any older kits that gets included in a Start collecting box have outsold its original launch period sales. That probably goes for any kit that gets bundled in some discount box.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 11:03:54


Post by: techsoldaten


frogert_poj wrote:
I would imagine that any older kits that gets included in a Start collecting box have outsold its original launch period sales. That probably goes for any kit that gets bundled in some discount box.


Not to mention, there's reasons to keep a product around after it's initial sales period, just not in the same quantity.

"Bulk of sales" does not mean no one buys it after that period. It may mean 65% of sales happen in the first 3 weeks, but the other 35% happen over the course of 5 years. Maybe you want 100 units the first few weeks then 10 to just sit until they sell.



GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 11:24:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


That’s assuming the info we’re going on is even accurate.

It’s the difference between “X% of sales happen in Y period”, and “X% of the production costs are recouped in Y period”.

They’re not the same thing, especially if we can assume that similarly sized sprues have similar production costs (including design, tooling, production, box art etc). Yet the latter can easily be misconstrued or misunderstood into becoming the former.

Stuff like basic infantry? They’ll have a far higher unit sale potential than something like a character model. And a character model is likely to have a higher unit sale potential compared to a Special Character.

Basic transports (Rhino, Chimera etc) will also likely have a higher unit sale potential than a Predator, Fireprism etc, simply because you can field more in a given list.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 11:59:00


Post by: kodos


this cannot be true that the bulk of sales happens in the first 3 weeks

because if it is true, keeping only core products in stock in every single store while other items need to be ordered after a given time, would actually makes sense
the same way making a new Marine box every Edition and shuffling units into discount boxes that have lower sales as well

no, no, sales of model kits are equal distributed over the live time of the box, an Eldar Falcon sold as many copies by its release week as selling as the last Codex was released as it sold last week
because people don't like Eldar and those 3 people playing just buy a new Falcon each year
no new people who wanted the Falcon bought it in masses by release, than a lot of people bought one with the new Codex as they wanted to start an Eldar Army, and now no one is buying one as everyone waits for the new Codex


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 12:12:34


Post by: techsoldaten


Well, I'm not sure if there's a reason to interrogate GW's stocking practices. Whether or not they make perfect sense from the outside, the company makes an impressive profit.

I'm certain they act like most other companies and monitor stock through an ERP system, deliver kits to stores based on informed projections, and red shirts has some role to play in making sure the right stuff is on the shelves.

The issue with demand, from the consumer side: it goes down once you have the model. I imagine our impressions are skewed based on what we notice when we visit stores, and we probably notice the familiar above all else.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 12:40:18


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I can confirm store stock has been centrally set and electronically re-ordered since around 2009, possibly before.

In times before, the manager ordered what they reckoned they needed. Which lead to cupboards full of stock.

New system also makes stock takes a doddle. Scan everything, and it works out, based on knowing what has been delivered, any discrepancies. I mean it still takes time, but so much easier than the paper and pen method.

This info true as of my last turn as a till monkey circa 2010.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 13:05:23


Post by: kodos


 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, I'm not sure if there's a reason to interrogate GW's stocking practices.

a very simple view on a complex topic

if the sales are higher in the first weeks and than lower, you have more stock on release on the shelf than 2 years later, and if a kit does not sell at all after the release, you remove it from the core stock and just order it on demand
if a kit has equal sales over years, you always have the same amount of boxes on the shelf


with people now saying that is is wrong that a box sells most on release, you should not see the differences on the shelf of the store but always a similar amount of them in stock


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 13:07:31


Post by: tneva82


If you remove all but newest it would be bad at getting new players. Shows unhealthy game for which isn't good to get into.

Also old kits are nearly pure profit so trickle sale worth still.

But sure. You know more than gw staff from inside. Random internet chap vs gw staff.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 13:16:12


Post by: Overread


JWBS wrote:
Sounds like bollocks to me. There would be little point in keeping a product in inventory past three months if that were the case. May as well just design, produce, and release another, if the profit is 10x, 'old' (aka three weeks) vs new.


I mean that did seem to be what GW was aiming for originally with the launch of Age of Sigmar

Perhaps not quite 3 month time frames, but certainly it was setup for fast sales of small armies/factions (released in one wave) that could then be retired and a new set pushed out. Hence why they made 4 grand alliances and scrapped a lot of "armies/races" and such. That way "players" would be collecting GA armies not individual races so GW could be free to retire some and introduce others and such all the time; keeping any that sold at a decent rate around.



Also don't forget even if they sell an overwhelming majority in their launch months; there's still significant sales after that. Plus keeping older kits around encourages people to buy new kits.

It still doesn't seem "right" to me that kits make their bulk of sales in such a short time window when they might spend 10 years on the shelf and that army might go through many revivals over that period of time


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 13:18:12


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 kodos wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, I'm not sure if there's a reason to interrogate GW's stocking practices.

a very simple view on a complex topic

if the sales are higher in the first weeks and than lower, you have more stock on release on the shelf than 2 years later, and if a kit does not sell at all after the release, you remove it from the core stock and just order it on demand
if a kit has equal sales over years, you always have the same amount of boxes on the shelf


with people now saying that is is wrong that a box sells most on release, you should not see the differences on the shelf of the store but always a similar amount of them in stock


That doesn’t take into account that GW stores have limited shelf space. Something going direct only does not, by any means, equate to it being a slow seller in itself.

Consider how many kits GW pump out each year for 40K and AoS. Some are straight replacements, others are entirely new additions to the range. Same with BL books.

With finite shelf space, it makes sense to keep the new things available in-store, as being new, the level of demand will be of course be higher. That’s just the nature of the beast, especially if it’s an entirely new addition to its army book or codex.

But that still doesn’t mean things are moved to Direct Only because they’re gathering dust. They just sell in a lesser quantity than New Things. If every store sells say, purely for arguments sake, 1 Tectonic Frag Drill a week? That item is objectively selling and selling well. But, the new things? You might be selling five or six of those a week. Which would you prioritise your inherently finite shelf space to?


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 13:48:58


Post by: Galas


I don't know why GW products would be different than basically everything else.

All products (With a couple exceptions as stuff like cocacola, etc...) have a peak volume of sales and then decline. Using games as an example, most sales are at release, and then you have smaller peaks when big DLC's, expansions, etc... are released.

Its only logical than GW products follow the same logic: Most sales at release with peaks with new editions/codex/rules for those models with campaing books, supplements, etc... and then a much slower turn rate in the periods in between.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 13:57:10


Post by: Overread


It's not that we are disputing that the new products won't have a peak of sales rate during the early months after release; but rather that that it represents the greatest amount of total sales of that kit. When models might be on sale for 10 years without being replaced.

Especially when you consider that a model is a model. It's not like a mobile phone where after 2 years newer models are in all ways superior. A Tactical Space Marine is as good in year 1 as it is in year 10. It's as viable on the table and everything.

If the kit isn't replaced then when that army gets new battletomes (That's at least 2-3 over that time span); new editions of the rules; new marketing pushes; new models released etc... Each of those events should spark a new wave of gamers returning too and starting that army.

Yes those new spikes might be lower in volume than the launch spikes; but the idea that models only sell 90% of their total lifespan stock in 3 months after launch just seems, strange to most of us. Especially when many of us have started brand new armies years after those armies were released.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 13:59:49


Post by: JWBS


No one is denying an initial peak of sales at the start of a product's lifetime. The issue is the numbers. 80% of sales in the first 5% (assuming a five year run, which is generous, GW stuff lasts longer than that on average, in most cases significantly longer) of the run is the claim that has been made numerous times here over the years. The source? "I heard this once / a guy told me".


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 14:49:44


Post by: xttz


JWBS wrote:
No one is denying an initial peak of sales at the start of a product's lifetime. The issue is the numbers. 80% of sales in the first 5% (assuming a five year run, which is generous, GW stuff lasts longer than that on average, in most cases significantly longer) of the run is the claim that has been made numerous times here over the years. The source? "I heard this once / a guy told me".


The numbers are definitely going to vary a lot by the individual product. I could believe 80% on the more niche / low volume stuff like named characters, while kits like core troop units are always going to have a steady trickle as people begin collecting the faction. Other stuff will be somewhere in between.

It's also pretty likely that the people who have access to the real figures are a couple degrees removed from the people repeating this stuff, so there's going to be a telephone game-effect going on when it comes to specific percentages.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 15:17:36


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Thing is, when GW redo an army? They only rarely redo the whole of the line.

9th Ed is notably the exception to that rule, as quite a few armies have had or are getting quite significant updates.

Outside of that? Each Codex or Battletome released will attract new players from within the existing community.

If they’ve never played that army before, they’ll be buying the basic units and whatever more specialised stuff tickles their tactical testicles.

The Hammerhead is an excellent example right now. It’s one of the oldest kits in the Tau range, tying with the Devilfish, Kroot, Kroothounds and Krootox. It was there since day one.

Yet….it’s getting proper sick rules. Like nearly a must have. Given its been somewhat lacklustre since it’s initial release? It’s going to see an uptick in sales. All without a physical redesign.

And so I find the “X% of all sales in Y time period” to almost certainly be made up.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 16:06:40


Post by: caladancid


 techsoldaten wrote:
Well, I'm not sure if there's a reason to interrogate GW's stocking practices. Whether or not they make perfect sense from the outside, the company makes an impressive profit.

I'm certain they act like most other companies and monitor stock through an ERP system, deliver kits to stores based on informed projections, and red shirts has some role to play in making sure the right stuff is on the shelves.

The issue with demand, from the consumer side: it goes down once you have the model. I imagine our impressions are skewed based on what we notice when we visit stores, and we probably notice the familiar above all else.


https://www.theregister.com/2022/01/13/games_workshop_launches_05m_at/

I think probably there are plenty of reasons to interrogate GW's stocking practices and the tech behind it, apparently GW also thinks they have some issues haha.


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 17:37:42


Post by: Racerguy180


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

The Hammerhead is an excellent example right now. It’s one of the oldest kits in the Tau range, tying with the Devilfish, Kroot, Kroothounds and Krootox. It was there since day one.

Yet….it’s getting proper sick rules. Like nearly a must have. Given its been somewhat lacklustre since it’s initial release? It’s going to see an uptick in sales. All without a physical redesign.

And so I find the “X% of all sales in Y time period” to almost certainly be made up.


It's like the mould is nearing the apex of its life and they want to tie some $€£¥ to it? Or equally plausible is that the HH mould has just been redone and they want to start it off with a bang.

Or its just the planets aligning and GW unwittingly reaping the reward.

Internally to GW, I would expect some sort of formula(used in all manufacturing) as to the life expectancy of the tool and its rate of return on investment. Who knows, GW might actually base their strategy of game OPness on tool life...


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/15 17:38:36


Post by: Kanluwen


Nah.

The Hammerhead isn't a single mould. It's built using the Devilfish kit sprues and a separate sprue just for the Hammerhead's weapon options. At some point, they also bundled in the Skyray's sprue.

TLDR? Redoing the Hammerhead would involve redoing 2 other kits as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
I can well believe that there's a peak of sales volume during the first few months of a new kit going on sale. However total sales is a hard one for me too.

I could believe it for an army like Ossiarchs which had a slightly luke-warm reception and haven't seen any major kit or battletome updates since. But at the same time its a super new army; it hasn't had a big battletome update or a second wave of models released. Heck I bet the Lumineth sold a LOT of models when their second wave landed and that a good portion were first wave models.

That's a sucker's bet to anyone who actually knows what the Lumineth releases entailed.

Wave 1 was predominantly Vanari(the subfaction that essentially makes up the Tyrionic "military" side of things) units in the form of the Sentinels, Wardens, and Dawnriders. Add in the 3 dedicated character kits(the Scinari Cathallar who was mandatory in a Vanari warscroll battalion, Teclis, and the Alarith Stonemage) plus the two other Alarith Temple items(the Spirit of the Mountain which was a double-build with a named version in Avalenor and the Alarith Stoneguard unit) and it's forced synergy with weird-ish characters that people kept dumping all over.

Cut to Wave 2!
Vanari saw the addition of the Bannerblade(hero), Lord Regent(hero), named Lord-Regent who is literally supposed to be the "Voice of Tyrion"(hero), the Starshard Ballista(warmachine), and the Bladelords(a weird bodyguard-ish unit who also had a resistance to Endless Spells/Spells in general because of their flags).
Scinari saw the addition of the Loreseeker(a pseudo-return of the ol' High Elf Loremaster) and the Calligrave(the gent running around with a paintbrush).
Our second Aelemntari Temple was the Wind Temple, consisting of another 3 kits(Mage, the Windcharger archers, and the dual kit of the named/unnamed fox spirit).
Last but not least was the named twins character, which consisted of both Scinari and Vanari keywords because one was a fighter and one was a mage.


It's worth mentioning though that, again, the Vanari/Tyrionic side of things is where most of these releases are coming from. That Tyrionic side is basically described as being High Elves from the World That Was. They have chariots, they have scouts, they have mounted heroes and massed lance charges yadda yadda yadda.

It's on the Teclian side where things get weird and where GW kept seeing pushback from the "fans".


GW publish their half year report. @ 2022/01/16 23:47:31


Post by: Caliginous


 Drakheart wrote:


Our epic Horus Heresy novel series is drawing close to its galaxy changing conclusion. Currently standing at over 7.5
million words, we aren’t aware of a more detailed and in-depth story in any fantasy or science fiction IP.


7.5 million, feel sorry for the guy who had to count them!


It takes Steven Erickson 7.5 million words just to describe one character stubbing their toe.