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Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 05:58:50


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


Now available for purchase and still waiting for the FAQ.

Yee who enters here abandon all hope.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 07:30:20


Post by: ph34r


Nice. Would mean Angron within a couple years. CSM super doctrine or whatever. Multilators gone, nobody cares.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 07:41:38


Post by: Dudeface


 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Courtesy of Dudeface ! Will update the OP, send new rumours through PMs if you don't want to clog the thread.



You're a gentle person and a scholar, thank you


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 09:08:06


Post by: Gadzilla666


Glad to see these rumours finally making it to dakka, and thanks to DreadfullyHopefull for starting the thread and to Dudeface for being the first to break them.

A couple of important additional tidbits from the B&C leaker:

1: The Legion traits apply to everything, which would break from Death Guard and Thousand Sons if true. For those Legions, their traits don't apply to daemon engines and Cultists (not sure about Poxwalkers or Tzaangors).

2: The Night Lords leadership debuff doesn't stack with itself, but does with Raptors and (ugh) spawn. Which would make it effectively useless against high leadership units/factions like Necrons, Custodes, and "veteran" type units and big vehicles like most LoWs.

Edit: It will also be important to see which units can take those Icons. Right now they're limited to: CSM, Chosen, Terminators, and Raptors. One would hope they're at least extended back to Havocs again.

I personally find the changes to Chosen Raptors, and Warp Talons most interesting. Hope at least some of this pans out.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 09:09:36


Post by: blood reaper


 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2: The Night Lords leadership debuff doesn't stack with itself, but does with Raptors and (ugh) spawn. Which would make it effectively useless against high leadership units/factions like Necrons, Custodes, and "veteran" type units and big vehicles like most LoWs.


I mean isn't it already effectively useless in 99.99% of situations?


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 09:12:38


Post by: H.B.M.C.


The inclusion of Emperor's Children is not good for Fulgrim and his boys.

 ph34r wrote:
Multilators gone, nobody cares.
On the contrary. GW should be making a 3-man kit of Oblits that also makes Mutilators.

That they haven't is another missed opportunity.



Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 09:13:41


Post by: Gadzilla666


 blood reaper wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2: The Night Lords leadership debuff doesn't stack with itself, but does with Raptors and (ugh) spawn. Which would make it effectively useless against high leadership units/factions like Necrons, Custodes, and "veteran" type units and big vehicles like most LoWs.


I mean isn't it already effectively useless in 99.99% of situations?

Yes, but one would hope they'd want to fix that situation, instead of continuing it.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 09:20:51


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2: The Night Lords leadership debuff doesn't stack with itself, but does with Raptors and (ugh) spawn. Which would make it effectively useless against high leadership units/factions like Necrons, Custodes, and "veteran" type units and big vehicles like most LoWs.


I mean isn't it already effectively useless in 99.99% of situations?

Yes, but one would hope they'd want to fix that situation, instead of continuing it.


I don't know... Now a unit would lose models on 1s and 2s right ? With another -1 if they are at half strength, that's already failing combat attrition on 3s ! Could hurt on sizeable units ! Now the only question is: can they reliably make enemies fail moral...?


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 09:21:08


Post by: H.B.M.C.


GW seems to think that Fear mechanics work, and unfortunately Night Lords are the 'fear' Legion. So that's what they get, no matter how useless the rules have shown to be.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 09:24:38


Post by: blood reaper


My approach has always been to assume the absolute worst of GW. In this case, the approach has been validated - because GW remain committed to the idea of 'morale' mechanics in a game where something like 50% of armies notionally shall no know fear.

More interesting morale mechanics would, rather than rely on causing units to fail morale checks, work by harming their ability to fight effectively or provide Night Lord units with the ability to gain bonuses to hit them, etc.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 09:34:53


Post by: Semper


 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Courtesy of Dudeface ! Will update the OP, send new rumours through PMs if you don't want to clog the thread.

Chaos rumours from over on B&C:

Spoiler:

"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:

exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)

Icons:

vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound


All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems (Legion trait to apply to EVERYTHING in the army)

Legion traits: NL
-2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
(Apparently doesn't stack with itself, but does with other LS reducing abilities)

IW
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound

WB

Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)

BL

ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)

in the book

have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)

WE
Not in the codex

Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH

Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon

2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)

Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles

Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w

Stratagems

something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS

Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage

New cultist unit HQ

New mutant culstists

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373055-potential-csm-leaks/#entry5788127


For the, even after 20 years in the hobby, uninitiated... what does CA mean? lol


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 09:38:03


Post by: Gadzilla666


DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2: The Night Lords leadership debuff doesn't stack with itself, but does with Raptors and (ugh) spawn. Which would make it effectively useless against high leadership units/factions like Necrons, Custodes, and "veteran" type units and big vehicles like most LoWs.


I mean isn't it already effectively useless in 99.99% of situations?

Yes, but one would hope they'd want to fix that situation, instead of continuing it.


I don't know... Now a unit would lose models on 1s and 2s right ? With another -1 if they are at half strength, that's already failing combat attrition on 3s ! Could hurt on sizeable units ! Now the only question is: can they reliably make enemies fail moral...?

Except loyalists and Death Guard already ignore attrition modifiers, and supposedly so will Black Legion. Thousand Sons Rubrics are completely immune to morale, and Custodes are now L11. A more sensible approach would have been allowing the debuff to stack, but not allowing it to drop leadership below 5-6, so it would have some effect against "elite" units/factions, but not be devastating against low leadership factions like Guard and Orks.

H.B.M.C. wrote:GW seems to think that Fear mechanics work, and unfortunately Night Lords are the 'fear' Legion. So that's what they get, no matter how useless the rules have shown to be.

Not always. We used to be the good in cover Legion, with a heavy emphasis on lots of Veteran Skills instead of Marks.

blood reaper wrote:My approach has always been to assume the absolute worst of GW. In this case, the approach has been validated - because GW remain committed to the idea of 'morale' mechanics in a game where something like 50% of armies notionally shall no know fear.

More interesting morale mechanics would, rather than rely on causing units to fail morale checks, work by harming their ability to fight effectively or something.

Yes, that would be more satisfying than morale just = extra casualties.

Look, I don't want to turn this into just a big complaint about the Night Lords trait. There's lots of other interesting stuff to talk about here.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Semper wrote:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Courtesy of Dudeface ! Will update the OP, send new rumours through PMs if you don't want to clog the thread.

Chaos rumours from over on B&C:

Spoiler:

"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:

exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)

Icons:

vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound


All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems (Legion trait to apply to EVERYTHING in the army)

Legion traits: NL
-2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
(Apparently doesn't stack with itself, but does with other LS reducing abilities)

IW
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound

WB

Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)

BL

ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)

in the book

have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)

WE
Not in the codex

Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH

Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon

2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)

Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles

Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w

Stratagems

something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS

Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage

New cultist unit HQ

New mutant culstists

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373055-potential-csm-leaks/#entry5788127


For the, even after 20 years in the hobby, uninitiated... what does CA mean? lol

Combat Attrition.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 09:39:35


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 blood reaper wrote:
More interesting morale mechanics would, rather than rely on causing units to fail morale checks, work by harming their ability to fight effectively or provide Night Lord units with the ability to gain bonuses to hit them, etc.
Exactly. If the morale rules represented, y'know, morale rather than just "Some of your guys died so as punishment some of your guys also now die!", or, better, was reworked into a suppression mechanic, maybe fear might mean something.

But I won't let myself get started on that rant... I have a lot to say about morale in 40k, but I'll leave it at the above...




Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 09:44:09


Post by: Scottywan82


I would love to see more human chaos units, so this sounds awesome to me. Bring on the cultists, mutants, HQs, and traitor guard. Just hook it to my veins.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 09:49:59


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Courtesy of Dudeface ! Will update the OP, send new rumours through PMs if you don't want to clog the thread.

Chaos rumours from over on B&C:

Spoiler:

"Ok so here is a bunch of info I managed to come by from secure sources: CSM doctrine:

exact same thing as SM, except replace +1AP with exploding 6s (unmodified hits)

Icons:

vengeance +1 CA
wrath +1ap melee
flame +1ap shooting
excess +1 to hit melee
despair 6s to hit = autowound


All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems (Legion trait to apply to EVERYTHING in the army)

Legion traits: NL
-2LD & -1CA @ 9''
+1 to advance & +1 to charges
When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound
(Apparently doesn't stack with itself, but does with other LS reducing abilities)

IW
Ignores cover
Reduce ap1/2 by 1
Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound

WB

Charges/HI = reroll hits
5+++ vs MW
When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit)

BL

ignore CA
+1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit)
EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)

in the book

have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)

WE
Not in the codex

Datasheet info: Chosen
3w
can use TH

Mutilators
no longer in the book
Warp talon

2w
lost cancel overwatch
gained no fallback
5a (these are total with claws)

Raptors
still have the -1LD aura
+2a

Obliterators
can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
3 different shooting profiles

Havocs
exactly the same as right now but 2w

Stratagems

something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
NL vox scream disables AURAS

Other: IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage

New cultist unit HQ

New mutant culstists

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373055-potential-csm-leaks/#entry5788127


Thanks for starting this thread!!! I am quite excited! After waiting for so long, CSM codex rumors are finally here! Quite a few of these all look very nice!


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 13:08:37


Post by: stonehorse


I doubt Mutilators will be gone from the book. Too cool a concept to abandon, just refine them and make better models.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 14:26:08


Post by: Billicus


Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 14:31:52


Post by: Dudeface


Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 14:32:27


Post by: Grimskul


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
More interesting morale mechanics would, rather than rely on causing units to fail morale checks, work by harming their ability to fight effectively or provide Night Lord units with the ability to gain bonuses to hit them, etc.
Exactly. If the morale rules represented, y'know, morale rather than just "Some of your guys died so as punishment some of your guys also now die!", or, better, was reworked into a suppression mechanic, maybe fear might mean something.

But I won't let myself get started on that rant... I have a lot to say about morale in 40k, but I'll leave it at the above...




The irony is that they already have a fluffy and effective ruleset for Night Lords as a subfaction in 30k that they could easily tweak to port over to 9th ed 40k, but for whatever reason they don't. Even just having Night Lords have some sort of bonus against units with a lower Ld than them would be ideal (reroll 1's to wound or something).


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 14:34:16


Post by: Billicus


Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 14:42:21


Post by: bullyboy


iron Warriors certainly seem to have a nice combination of traits, almost too good.
Ignore cover...of course
Reduce AP of 1/2 by 1, OK, can dig it.
+1 to wound for heavy/gren vs not just buildings, but vehicles (ouch) and units in cover.

That's pretty tasty and certainly encourages IW to stack on heavy weapons. Of course, if the doctrine is Turn 1 only (like marines) for heavy/gren, that won't be as effective unless going second due to opponent hiding. (I'm referring to the exploding 6s obviously here)


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 14:52:08


Post by: Gadzilla666


Grimskul wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:
More interesting morale mechanics would, rather than rely on causing units to fail morale checks, work by harming their ability to fight effectively or provide Night Lord units with the ability to gain bonuses to hit them, etc.
Exactly. If the morale rules represented, y'know, morale rather than just "Some of your guys died so as punishment some of your guys also now die!", or, better, was reworked into a suppression mechanic, maybe fear might mean something.

But I won't let myself get started on that rant... I have a lot to say about morale in 40k, but I'll leave it at the above...




The irony is that they already have a fluffy and effective ruleset for Night Lords as a subfaction in 30k that they could easily tweak to port over to 9th ed 40k, but for whatever reason they don't. Even just having Night Lords have some sort of bonus against units with a lower Ld than them would be ideal (reroll 1's to wound or something).

I think they were trying to do a 40k version of A Talent For Murder with the +1 to wound half strength/L6 or less trait, but if you can't get anything with better than L8 down low enough for it to work.... yeah, doesn't cut it. Oh well.

Billicus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's

They were pretty good at melee back when they could walk up to you and chuck a squad of Bloodletters in your face.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 15:03:40


Post by: chaos0xomega


When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound


Wouldn't it be great if "below half strength" was actually based on the units max possible size in the codex as opposed to the size of the unit your opponent took? Kind of like an anti-blast type mechanic that punishes your opponent for spamming MSU?

Thats not what its going to be, but it would be great if it was (would make more sense from a game design standpoint to, as it wouldn't require you/your opponent to remember what the starting size of the unit was, only the unit size relative to its max possible size).


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 15:04:49


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


Billicus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's


I don't know. Mortals on 6s in melee feels pretty fluffy to me. Like, they punch the daemon into you
Plus that seems like a very fanatic thing to do. Like: "You won't worship chaos ? Let me "throw" the book at you."

Iron warriors also look pretty strong to me. You not only ignore cover, you force your adversary to avoid cover.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 15:20:00


Post by: Gert


The Word Bearers stuff is weird and doesn't make a lick of sense IMO.
And as much as I love my grumpy little Iron Warriors, christ that is an insanely good block of rules. Like too good.
The Icons will be the same as they are in the DG/Tsons Codexes with some other stuff for the ones that aren't there and AFAIK Icons of Flame/Despair haven't changed since 8th.
I'm not trying to see like a downer here but these Legion Traits don't track with what GW has done with other subfaction rules, in that they've generally stayed the same.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 15:22:22


Post by: ProfSrlojohn


 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's


I don't know. Mortals on 6s in melee feels pretty fluffy to me. Like, they punch the daemon into you
Plus that seems like a very fanatic thing to do. Like: "You won't worship chaos ? Let me "throw" the book at you."

Iron warriors also look pretty strong to me. You not only ignore cover, you force your adversary to avoid cover.


One would think the WB would get morale and daemon summoning buffs, since those are their sort of things. Maybe some sort of buff reflecting the fact that they actually have maintained legion structure.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 15:38:10


Post by: Dudeface


 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's


I don't know. Mortals on 6s in melee feels pretty fluffy to me. Like, they punch the daemon into you
Plus that seems like a very fanatic thing to do. Like: "You won't worship chaos ? Let me "throw" the book at you."

Iron warriors also look pretty strong to me. You not only ignore cover, you force your adversary to avoid cover.


One would think the WB would get morale and daemon summoning buffs, since those are their sort of things. Maybe some sort of buff reflecting the fact that they actually have maintained legion structure.


As per DG/TS summoning is now gone though, so you have.... morale buffs which aren't great but then what? They like possessed - melee unit and have a slight affinity for mortals as cannon fodder, in melee. With WE gone there needs to be a window for melee oriented foot sloggers and WB fit pretty well imo.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 15:43:21


Post by: Platuan4th


 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's


I don't know. Mortals on 6s in melee feels pretty fluffy to me. Like, they punch the daemon into you
Plus that seems like a very fanatic thing to do. Like: "You won't worship chaos ? Let me "throw" the book at you."

Iron warriors also look pretty strong to me. You not only ignore cover, you force your adversary to avoid cover.


One would think the WB would get morale and daemon summoning buffs, since those are their sort of things. Maybe some sort of buff reflecting the fact that they actually have maintained legion structure.


I don't really see GW giving a subfaction a trait that's a bonus to a rule from an entirely different Codex.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 15:51:47


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
1: The Legion traits apply to everything, which would break from Death Guard and Thousand Sons if true. For those Legions, their traits don't apply to daemon engines and Cultists (not sure about Poxwalkers or Tzaangors).


TS trait is the 5++, which applies to everything except spawn and cultists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bullyboy wrote:
That's pretty tasty and certainly encourages IW to stack on heavy weapons. Of course, if the doctrine is Turn 1 only (like marines) for heavy/gren, that won't be as effective unless going second due to opponent hiding. (I'm referring to the exploding 6s obviously here)


Yea this is something that runs out of steam too quickly so unless IW have worthwhile traits and strats I don't think people will go with them outside of die hards.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 15:56:12


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Gert wrote:
The Word Bearers stuff is weird and doesn't make a lick of sense IMO.
And as much as I love my grumpy little Iron Warriors, christ that is an insanely good block of rules. Like too good.
The Icons will be the same as they are in the DG/Tsons Codexes with some other stuff for the ones that aren't there and AFAIK Icons of Flame/Despair haven't changed since 8th.
I'm not trying to see like a downer here but these Legion Traits don't track with what GW has done with other subfaction rules, in that they've generally stayed the same.

The Icon of Flame is now "+1 Cabal point" for Thousand Sons. I don't think that would be useful for anyone else. And anyway, the B&C leaker says that they were using the Icon names as "placeholders" so everyone could have a reference for them. So the names could be completely different.

As for the traits "generally staying the same": Iron Warriors ignore cover - they already do that, Night Lords get a lame leadership debuff - they already do that, Black Legion ignore CA modifiers - that's kinda like +1 to leadership. And did anyone really want the Word Bearers trait to stay the same?


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 16:09:56


Post by: Rihgu


Dudeface wrote:
 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's


I don't know. Mortals on 6s in melee feels pretty fluffy to me. Like, they punch the daemon into you
Plus that seems like a very fanatic thing to do. Like: "You won't worship chaos ? Let me "throw" the book at you."

Iron warriors also look pretty strong to me. You not only ignore cover, you force your adversary to avoid cover.


One would think the WB would get morale and daemon summoning buffs, since those are their sort of things. Maybe some sort of buff reflecting the fact that they actually have maintained legion structure.


As per DG/TS summoning is now gone though, so you have.... morale buffs which aren't great but then what? They like possessed - melee unit and have a slight affinity for mortals as cannon fodder, in melee. With WE gone there needs to be a window for melee oriented foot sloggers and WB fit pretty well imo.


Summoning is from the Chaos Daemons book, not from DG/TS, though.
DG/TS/CSM codexes had reminder text from the Chaos Daemons book but the rule itself has always been from the Chaos Daemons book. So, the removal of the reminder text (as well as the reminder datasheets for summonable units) doesn't indicate summoning will be gone. We'll have to wait until the Daemons book to see.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 16:20:41


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


One thing that I’d like to see is some fun stuff with alpha legion. Either some sort of loyalist brood brother type thing, or an army of renown. They still have caches of weapons and everything else, potentially even far reaching colonies/forge worlds from the time of the heresy. They should be pulling out some scary stuff, less warpy stuff.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 16:21:47


Post by: Gert


 Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Icon of Flame is now "+1 Cabal point" for Thousand Sons. I don't think that would be useful for anyone else. And anyway, the B&C leaker says that they were using the Icon names as "placeholders" so everyone could have a reference for them. So the names could be completely different.

As for the traits "generally staying the same": Iron Warriors ignore cover - they already do that, Night Lords get a lame leadership debuff - they already do that, Black Legion ignore CA modifiers - that's kinda like +1 to leadership. And did anyone really want the Word Bearers trait to stay the same?

Good to know for the Icons.
But the traits aren't the same, they've got like 2 extra buffs each. Has any other subfaction seen anything remotely similar or have they stayed the same as their 8th Ed counterparts with only things like <Core> being considered?
Look I'm not saying that updates wouldn't be nice but is nobody else thinking this is a bit of wishful thinking?


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 16:54:52


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Gert wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Icon of Flame is now "+1 Cabal point" for Thousand Sons. I don't think that would be useful for anyone else. And anyway, the B&C leaker says that they were using the Icon names as "placeholders" so everyone could have a reference for them. So the names could be completely different.

As for the traits "generally staying the same": Iron Warriors ignore cover - they already do that, Night Lords get a lame leadership debuff - they already do that, Black Legion ignore CA modifiers - that's kinda like +1 to leadership. And did anyone really want the Word Bearers trait to stay the same?

Good to know for the Icons.
But the traits aren't the same, they've got like 2 extra buffs each. Has any other subfaction seen anything remotely similar or have they stayed the same as their 8th Ed counterparts with only things like <Core> being considered?
Look I'm not saying that updates wouldn't be nice but is nobody else thinking this is a bit of wishful thinking?

Not if you assume that all of the "Does (X) with weapon types (Y, Z, and Q) abilities are effectively "super doctrines" as others have theorized. At that point, my Night Lords have -2 leadership instead of -1 (but it doesn't stack anymore) and +1 to advance and charge rolls, and on turns 4 and 5 +1 to wound anything below half strength or L6 or less (which will be impossible against some factions since the leadership debuff doesn't stack anymore). Which is absolutely NOT what I'd wish for, as you well know. It's actually pretty "meh".


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 16:55:25


Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


 Gert wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Icon of Flame is now "+1 Cabal point" for Thousand Sons. I don't think that would be useful for anyone else. And anyway, the B&C leaker says that they were using the Icon names as "placeholders" so everyone could have a reference for them. So the names could be completely different.

As for the traits "generally staying the same": Iron Warriors ignore cover - they already do that, Night Lords get a lame leadership debuff - they already do that, Black Legion ignore CA modifiers - that's kinda like +1 to leadership. And did anyone really want the Word Bearers trait to stay the same?

Good to know for the Icons.
But the traits aren't the same, they've got like 2 extra buffs each. Has any other subfaction seen anything remotely similar or have they stayed the same as their 8th Ed counterparts with only things like <Core> being considered?
Look I'm not saying that updates wouldn't be nice but is nobody else thinking this is a bit of wishful thinking?


Eh... I've been burned by the eldar leaks before. Plus while a healthy dose of criticism is always nice, all of this is in good fun.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 16:55:50


Post by: deffrekka


 Gert wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

The Icon of Flame is now "+1 Cabal point" for Thousand Sons. I don't think that would be useful for anyone else. And anyway, the B&C leaker says that they were using the Icon names as "placeholders" so everyone could have a reference for them. So the names could be completely different.

As for the traits "generally staying the same": Iron Warriors ignore cover - they already do that, Night Lords get a lame leadership debuff - they already do that, Black Legion ignore CA modifiers - that's kinda like +1 to leadership. And did anyone really want the Word Bearers trait to stay the same?

Good to know for the Icons.
But the traits aren't the same, they've got like 2 extra buffs each. Has any other subfaction seen anything remotely similar or have they stayed the same as their 8th Ed counterparts with only things like <Core> being considered?
Look I'm not saying that updates wouldn't be nice but is nobody else thinking this is a bit of wishful thinking?


Ork Clan Kulturs changed quite the bit (other than Evil sunz, Freebooters). Goffs gained +1 str and true exploding 6s when they only had 6s gain an additional attack, snakebites had a 6+++ now that's baby transhuman and +1 to wound for squigs. Badmoons was just reroll 1s to hit, now its a range increase on dakka and heavy weapons and 6s are an additional AP.

A lot of the admech ones also changed and gained an additional dogma trait. I imagine craftworlds will also see revised traits instead of the pretty bad ones they have now. It's fairly common for 9th ed codexes to have 2 traits per chapter and sometimes 3, rather than the 1 only trait for most 8th ed codexes.

I don't find the rumours wishlisty, it just feels like a huge improvement which honestly CSM needs. I'm assuming DttFE is gone, hateful assault is baked in, bolter discipline stays and whatever this chaos doctrine is replaces DttFE, and they get some form of Slaves to Darkness Mark of Chaos rule so that they have 2 - 3 faction traits.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 17:10:11


Post by: CMLR


I just want a NL plastic upgrade sprue, but not WE in the book is fantastic foreshadowing.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 17:11:36


Post by: Dudeface


Rihgu wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Billicus wrote:
Those melee focused WB rules sound much more WE than WB, to the extent that for me it seems probable that it's a mistake.


Don't forget World Eaters aren't in the book, so there's room for a melee skewed set of rules in there.


I'm not forgetting that so much as suggesting WB and WE may have been muddled up. "Good at melee" has never been WB's thing and has always been WE's


I don't know. Mortals on 6s in melee feels pretty fluffy to me. Like, they punch the daemon into you
Plus that seems like a very fanatic thing to do. Like: "You won't worship chaos ? Let me "throw" the book at you."

Iron warriors also look pretty strong to me. You not only ignore cover, you force your adversary to avoid cover.


One would think the WB would get morale and daemon summoning buffs, since those are their sort of things. Maybe some sort of buff reflecting the fact that they actually have maintained legion structure.


As per DG/TS summoning is now gone though, so you have.... morale buffs which aren't great but then what? They like possessed - melee unit and have a slight affinity for mortals as cannon fodder, in melee. With WE gone there needs to be a window for melee oriented foot sloggers and WB fit pretty well imo.


Summoning is from the Chaos Daemons book, not from DG/TS, though.
DG/TS/CSM codexes had reminder text from the Chaos Daemons book but the rule itself has always been from the Chaos Daemons book. So, the removal of the reminder text (as well as the reminder datasheets for summonable units) doesn't indicate summoning will be gone. We'll have to wait until the Daemons book to see.


As others have said, if their trait was "bonus to this rule, see codex daemons page whatever" that would be at best an insult. If it doesn't exist in the CSM book then it won't get a bonus for a legion rule.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 17:54:51


Post by: Galef


I don't see it in the OP, but are CSM getting the same +1W buff across the board as regular Marines did?
I.e 2W infantry/jump infantry Marines, 3W Terminators/Bikes, etc.
Obviously units like Cultists, vehicles, Daemons, etc would not get this, but Marine units with clear Loyalist counterparts should 100% have the same number of wounds per model

-


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 17:56:18


Post by: techsoldaten


 Galef wrote:
I don't see it in the OP, but are CSM getting the same +1W buff across the board as regular Marines did?
I.e 2W infantry/jump infantry Marines, 3W Terminators/Bikes, etc.
Obviously units like Cultists, vehicles, Daemons, etc would not get this, but Marine units with clear Loyalist counterparts should 100% have the same number of wounds per model

-


Yes, they are getting the additional wounds.

The thread mentions Chosen are also getting 3 wounds, and Havocs are staying at 2 wounds.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 17:58:47


Post by: Galef


 techsoldaten wrote:
 Galef wrote:
I don't see it in the OP, but are CSM getting the same +1W buff across the board as regular Marines did?
I.e 2W infantry/jump infantry Marines, 3W Terminators/Bikes, etc.
Obviously units like Cultists, vehicles, Daemons, etc would not get this, but Marine units with clear Loyalist counterparts should 100% have the same number of wounds per model

-


Yes, they are getting the additional wounds.

The thread mentions Chosen are also getting 3 wounds, and Havocs are staying at 2 wounds.
Excellent, thanx.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 18:08:56


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Even if Chosen gets 3 wounds, I am not sure if people still won't chose Terminators over Chosen. Because terminators will also have 3W, terminator armor, and be able to wield the same sort of special weapons that chosen can. I am just not sure what kind of role Chosen will shine in. If its foot slogging, Terminators will be able to do everything they do, yet better while being more durable. They don't have the mobility of raptors or warp talons.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 18:10:27


Post by: Dudeface


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Even if Chosen gets 3 wounds, I am not sure if people still won't chose Terminators over Chosen. Because terminators will also have 3W, terminator armor, and be able to wield the same sort of special weapons that chosen can. I am just not sure what kind of role Chosen will shine in. If its foot slogging, Terminators will be able to do everything they do, yet better while being more durable. They don't have the mobility of raptors or warp talons.


Depends on how dumb the unit entry is as well for terminators/chosen more than anything.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 18:20:55


Post by: Billicus


In 9th ed they can just give Chosen some broken stratagems while starving Terminators of the same options and sell the models that way.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 18:26:51


Post by: Gadzilla666


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Even if Chosen gets 3 wounds, I am not sure if people still won't chose Terminators over Chosen. Because terminators will also have 3W, terminator armor, and be able to wield the same sort of special weapons that chosen can. I am just not sure what kind of role Chosen will shine in. If its foot slogging, Terminators will be able to do everything they do, yet better while being more durable. They don't have the mobility of raptors or warp talons.

Not if they give Chosen Infiltrate back. Then they could be up front and causing your opponent problems turn 1, while Terminators would have to either wait for a turn 2 deepstrike or slog up the board.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 18:51:11


Post by: techsoldaten


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Even if Chosen gets 3 wounds, I am not sure if people still won't chose Terminators over Chosen. Because terminators will also have 3W, terminator armor, and be able to wield the same sort of special weapons that chosen can. I am just not sure what kind of role Chosen will shine in. If its foot slogging, Terminators will be able to do everything they do, yet better while being more durable. They don't have the mobility of raptors or warp talons.

Sounds like Chosen get Thunderhammers and Terminators don't.

In a Black Legion army, I would take a 3W Thunderhammer unit over Terminators with power weapons.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 20:28:52


Post by: chaos0xomega


How about Terminators with Chainfists?


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 21:07:35


Post by: Platuan4th


 techsoldaten wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Even if Chosen gets 3 wounds, I am not sure if people still won't chose Terminators over Chosen. Because terminators will also have 3W, terminator armor, and be able to wield the same sort of special weapons that chosen can. I am just not sure what kind of role Chosen will shine in. If its foot slogging, Terminators will be able to do everything they do, yet better while being more durable. They don't have the mobility of raptors or warp talons.

Sounds like Chosen get Thunderhammers and Terminators don't.

In a Black Legion army, I would take a 3W Thunderhammer unit over Terminators with power weapons.


Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 21:15:09


Post by: techsoldaten


 Platuan4th wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Even if Chosen gets 3 wounds, I am not sure if people still won't chose Terminators over Chosen. Because terminators will also have 3W, terminator armor, and be able to wield the same sort of special weapons that chosen can. I am just not sure what kind of role Chosen will shine in. If its foot slogging, Terminators will be able to do everything they do, yet better while being more durable. They don't have the mobility of raptors or warp talons.

Sounds like Chosen get Thunderhammers and Terminators don't.

In a Black Legion army, I would take a 3W Thunderhammer unit over Terminators with power weapons.


Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?


No. I'm assuming a Chosen unit continues to have access to multiple special weapons. WRT Chainfists, that depends on points, Stratagems and a couple other factors.

I just would not take it for granted vanilla Terminators are better than Thunderhammer Chosen.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 21:22:51


Post by: Marshal Loss


Few discrepancies in the leak (e.g. Black Legion get absolutely no value out of an Icon of Vengeance? Vindicta is their entire theme...) but overall this all seems plausible. The doctrine + World Eaters not being in the book has been publicly corroborated by one of the Eldar leakers so those parts I'm much more confident about.

As a Word Bearers player I certainly won't complain about no longer being the "re-roll morale" guy.

Also very happy if we're able to pick different profiles to suit different targets with Obliterators; a welcome return to form.

Hopefully Chosen get a 5++ Aura of Dark Glory to reflect their status as up and coming leaders.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 22:45:42


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Platuan4th wrote:
Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.

The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 22:49:59


Post by: Platuan4th


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.

The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.


Sometimes I foolishly hold on to hope.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 23:04:39


Post by: Gadzilla666


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.

The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.

Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 23:08:32


Post by: Lord Blackscale


 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2: The Night Lords leadership debuff doesn't stack with itself, but does with Raptors and (ugh) spawn. Which would make it effectively useless against high leadership units/factions like Necrons, Custodes, and "veteran" type units and big vehicles like most LoWs.


I will hold out hope the wording of the rule will correct this. It would actually convince me to play my favorite legion on the table, instead of just in Kill Team where legion doesn't matter.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 23:10:12


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.
It's called 'pattern recognition'.



Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 23:11:01


Post by: Wha-Mu-077


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.

The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.

Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.


There is only evidence pointing towards it, not against it, thus it's the most likely outcome.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 23:15:24


Post by: Voss


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.

The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.

Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.

Reality doesn't work that way.
If there's evidence they've changed the paradigm again to move away from the equipment jigsaw, that would be one thing.
But given that it keeps happening and the chosen we've seen are _really monopose, there isn't any reason to expect anything else.


Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 23:43:40


Post by: xttz


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.
It's called 'pattern recognition'.



I suppose you can always see a pattern if you ignore any evidence to the contrary?

  • GSC units kept the ability to equip multiples of weapon options, with one each in the kit
  • Tau battlesuits can fit multiples of weapons
  • The new Warlock kit comes with one of each weapon, the leaked datasheet does not enforce that


  • Chosen may have a restricted datasheet and they may not, but let's not pretend there has been any consistent pattern here.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 23:45:47


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    Voss wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:
    Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
    What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.

    The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.

    Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.

    Reality doesn't work that way.
    If there's evidence they've changed the paradigm again to move away from the equipment jigsaw, that would be one thing.
    But given that it keeps happening and the chosen we've seen are _really monopose, there isn't any reason to expect anything else.

    Sure there is. Didn't you think it was odd that Chosen were the only unit that got a rules update in C: CSM "2" that didn't get new models? It could be possible that the reason they changed their options was because they already had the models, but have held off their release until now for some reason. We haven’t seen the sprues, and there's no reason to think that the Chosen in the CSM vs Eldar box are the ones that will get a separate release. These could be just for the box, with a different set with other options coming for the separate release, same as the new CSM kit. I think some of the loyalist models were similar. Didn't the Indomitus Eradicators lack multi-meltas? It's entirely possible that the rules for Chosen in C: CSM "2" were based on the new models.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/25 23:54:18


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     xttz wrote:
    I suppose you can always see a pattern if you ignore any evidence to the contrary?
    Oh for crying out loud...

    Are you really going to sit there with a straight face and pretend that this weapon limiting via sprue isn't a thing?

    It's been happening in just about every Codex this edition, starting with Marines and the wacky Primaris Captain options. It happened to Plague Marines and Terminators. It happened to Skitarii. It happened to Wyches. It happened with Burna Boyz and Lootaz. With Ork Kommandos. It happened to Sword Brethren. Hell it was happening even before that, what with the old Brood Brother entry.

    Some escaped this (like the Sisters), and some don't have enough options in the first place for it to become an issue (Custodes), but please don't try and pretend like this isn't actually happening.

     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    We haven’t seen the sprues, and there's no reason to think that the Chosen in the CSM vs Eldar box are the ones that will get a separate release.
    Ok dude. That's reaching. That's really reaching. Everything else in that box is coming out... except the Chosen. They're a special one-off?



    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 00:09:39


    Post by: xttz


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     xttz wrote:
    I suppose you can always see a pattern if you ignore any evidence to the contrary?
    Oh for crying out loud...

    Are you really going to sit there with a straight face and pretend that this weapon limiting via sprue isn't a thing?

    It's been happening in just about every Codex this edition, starting with Marines and the wacky Primaris Captain options. It happened to Plague Marines and Terminators. It happened to Skitarii. It happened to Wyches. It happened with Burna Boyz and Lootaz. With Ork Kommandos. It happened to Sword Brethren. Hell it was happening even before that, what with the old Brood Brother entry.

    Some escaped this (like the Sisters), and some don't have enough options in the first place for it to become an issue (Custodes), but please don't try and pretend like this isn't actually happening.


    Well done for quoting me, snipping off the part of my post where I said it might or might not happen, then concocting some kind of fictitious argument instead. Genuine class act there.

    Instead of reeling off an equally long list of datasheets demonstrating how unpredictable this is, I'm just going to go Google that quote about playing chess with pigeons.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 00:14:33


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    We haven’t seen the sprues, and there's no reason to think that the Chosen in the CSM vs Eldar box are the ones that will get a separate release.
    Ok dude. That's reaching. That's really reaching. Everything else in that box is coming out... except the Chosen. They're a special one-off?


    It's possible. Again, like the Shadow Spear CSM. Look, they changed the Chosen entry in C: CSM "2". Isn't the "H.B.M.C. standard" for how gw writes rules: Model designers make new models - rules writers see new models - rules writers write new rules based on models? Which do you think is more likely for the reason they changed their options? That? Or because they wanted to improve a unit even though they didn't have new models to sell?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 00:17:55


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     xttz wrote:
    Well done for quoting me, snipping off the part of my post where I said it might or might not happen, then concocting some kind of fictitious argument instead. Genuine class act there.

    Instead of reeling off an equally long list of datasheets demonstrating how unpredictable this is, I'm just going to go Google that quote about playing chess with pigeons.
    So all you've got is insults. Cool.

    And it doesn't matter whether your post was 10 words or 100 words, you'd still be wrong. This is something GW has been doing all edition. The only inconsistent thing about it is that occasionally an army escapes this nonsense rules methodology. I'm not 'pretending' anything. The only person pretending are people like you who are acting like this isn't really a thing.

     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Isn't the "H.B.M.C. standard" for how gw writes rules
    Ain't got nuthin' to do with me, pal.




    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 00:39:15


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Isn't the "H.B.M.C. standard" for how gw writes rules
    Ain't got nuthin' to do with me, pal.



    Right. Models, then fluff, then rules. Straight from one of the rules writers. And you don't think it's possible that they changed the options for Chosen to match these new models? Or do you think it's more likely that they changed the rules for a unit that didn't even have models for them to sell, just "because"?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 00:41:52


    Post by: Crimson


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    The only inconsistent thing about it is that occasionally an army escapes this nonsense rules methodology.

    Right. Which is the point. It is seemingly random whether they do it or not, so we can't know beforehand.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 00:56:16


    Post by: Voss


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Voss wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Platuan4th wrote:
    Even if it's only 1 Thunderhammer for every 5 models?
    What do you mean "if"? The Chosen entry will look like this, just with a few more "one in every five" options for the 3 combi-weapons and whatever else the sprue has.

    The real question now is whether Chaos Terminators will suffer the same fate, given how limited and option-starved their sprue is.

    Sooo.....you've actually seen the new rules for Chosen? Or are you just hoping this travesty is committed upon them so you can keep complaining about it? If it's neither, then please stop trying to call it into existence.

    Reality doesn't work that way.
    If there's evidence they've changed the paradigm again to move away from the equipment jigsaw, that would be one thing.
    But given that it keeps happening and the chosen we've seen are _really monopose, there isn't any reason to expect anything else.

    Sure there is. Didn't you think it was odd that Chosen were the only unit that got a rules update in C: CSM "2" that didn't get new models? It could be possible that the reason they changed their options was because they already had the models, but have held off their release until now for some reason. We haven’t seen the sprues, and there's no reason to think that the Chosen in the CSM vs Eldar box are the ones that will get a separate release. These could be just for the box, with a different set with other options coming for the separate release, same as the new CSM kit. I think some of the loyalist models were similar. Didn't the Indomitus Eradicators lack multi-meltas? It's entirely possible that the rules for Chosen in C: CSM "2" were based on the new models.

    Nope. I think literally none of that. I definitely don't think the upcoming chosen were a secret release for the Chaos Compilation Codex of Nothing-to-See-Here, but were not released for unspoken reasons that somehow involve Indomitus Eradicators not having... multimeltas. And the already secretly delayed but previewed Chosen aren't the real Chosen? I can't even vaguely follow whatever train of thought you're on.

    Jigsaw weapon rules? There's plenty of reason to think that.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 00:57:05


    Post by: macluvin


    Just like dark vengeance chosen XD


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 01:24:06


    Post by: Marshal Loss


    There's absolutely nothing to suggest that we're getting two sets of Chosen. The set in Eldritch Omens will be monopose but multipart with a couple of variants/options for each build, exactly the same as Chaos Marines/Terminators/Havocs, and will be released individually later on. The weapon options will probably be Sword Brethren-esque, though I would point out that rumours at this stage claim Havocs have unrestricted options on their datasheet and so it's not inconceivable that Chosen will have limited options in the box but unlimited on their datasheet.

    This is GW we're talking about, after all. Consistently inconsistent.

     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Didn't you think it was odd that Chosen were the only unit that got a rules update in C: CSM "2" that didn't get new models? It could be possible that the reason they changed their options was because they already had the models, but have held off their release until now for some reason.


    What changed was the "champion equipment list" in order to cater to the Blackstone Fortress Chaos Lord, the actual Chosen datasheet in the 8.5 book remains identical to what we saw in 8.0.

     Gert wrote:
    The Word Bearers stuff is weird and doesn't make a lick of sense IMO..


    Mileage may vary but the "leak" follows the lore & their 30k rules pretty closely; mortal wounds in cc representing their use of athames/tainted weapons, a resistance to mortals representing their use of hexagrammatic wards/daemonic blessings, and re-rolls when they charge/HI a pretty standard trope for religious nutjob factions in 40k.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 01:54:44


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     Marshal Loss wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Didn't you think it was odd that Chosen were the only unit that got a rules update in C: CSM "2" that didn't get new models? It could be possible that the reason they changed their options was because they already had the models, but have held off their release until now for some reason.


    What changed was the "champion equipment list" in order to cater to the Blackstone Fortress Chaos Lord, the actual Chosen datasheet in the 8.5 book remains identical to what we saw in 8.0.

    The 8.0 Chosen entry allowed up to 4 Chosen to replace their boltgun with one item from the Combi-weapons, Special Weapons, or Melee Weapons (which is what thunder hammers were added to, not the "champion equipment list") lists. 8.5 allowed each Chosen to take one item from the Melee Weapons list and up to 4 could replace their boltgun with options from the Combi-weapons and Special Weapons lists. 8.0 allowed for ranged or melee loadouts. 8.5 allowed for both at the same time.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 01:57:29


    Post by: drbored


    Definitely an interesting set of rumors. The stuff that stands out is indeed that the legion traits apply to everything, which they've given in the past to cultists only to revoke it. I see that being the case if things get silly.

    There's mention of all legions getting 6 warlord traits, 8 relics, and 8 stratagems, which is actually quite a large number of legion-specific. 6 legions inside the codex means 48 stratagems, not counting any stratagems that would be useable by any legion or custom legions.

    No mention of Marks, but the Icons definitely are a bit of a buff, all in the form of actual combat benefits. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the Raptor datasheet change, since the box doesn't actually include any icons in it. It'll be interesting to see what other datasheets can take what icons, since the generic Chaos Marine box only comes with a universal icon type. Is it a model-based thing or is it going to be 'say whatever you want it to be' sort of thing?

    Alpha Legion is curiously missing from the list, but I'm sure they'll crop up eventually.

    Iron Warriors seems good. Fitting, powerful.

    Black Legion is good, though if they ignore Combat Attrition then there's no point to take Icons of Vengeance, which is kinda odd. Otherwise, not bad.

    Word Bearers seems quite potent on the surface of it. If they can get lots of guys in melee with lots of attacks, then I see them pumping out quite a lot of mortal wounds. Regular chaos marines might attack things like knights just to load them up with mortal wounds.

    Emperor's Children is a bit interesting. Mention of them having a way to hit on 2's even with Thunder Hammers, juicy.

    World Eaters: not in the book, yay. Coincides with other rumors that say that World Eaters are due this year with Angron in tow.

    Finally we get to Night Lords. A flat +1 to advance and charge is already pretty good for just about anyone, it's just that they don't get much else out of their legion trait until specific things are covered. Any space-marine-equivalent that has its sgt will be dropped to leadership 7 base, so without a buff to that, such as with raptors or some other warlord trait or stratagem, the +1 to wound with melee just won't pop. Hordes are currently not the way to go, thanks to blast weapons, so more people are taking smaller groups, MSU. Custodes just won't care, Necrons wont care most of the time, all the MEQ armies wont care most of the time (oh woop de doo, you get a +1 to wound on the remaining 2 models out of my 5 man intercessor squad, and only with pistols, flamers, melta guns, and melee weapons).

    The curious thing will be how this interacts with vehicles. Many space marine vehicles, except for storm raven and land raiders, have base leadership 8. Getting +1 to wound against vehicles in melee or with close range melta guns could actually be pretty juicy. If 'below half strength' also means 'below half wounds' then that could help against characters and vehicles as well.

    That said, I could just as easily see this rule not applying to vehicles or monstrous creatures, which would be exactly the sort of thing GW would do to make it so that Night Lords remain completely uninteresting.

    Warp Talons having no protection to overwatch is fine. I bet there's a stratagem that gives it back to them or something.

    Mutilators? Good riddance. They were a half-baked idea with an awful model design that was made in finecast to top it all off. There are tons of other ways to get melee beefcakes to stomp across the table, and if you still have those models and like them for some reason, use them as Greater Possessed or something.

    The last bit about the stratagems says that Night Lords get a way to deep strike jump packs turn 1 and also disable auras with another strat, which does make them pretty juicy. Being able to force someone to pop their single-use Insane Bravery turn 1 is definitely a strat.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 01:58:07


    Post by: Marshal Loss


    Updated rumours from the poster in question:

    Spoiler:


    Time for an update post



    SM doctrine:

    Similar to SM Doctrine, except exploding 6s (unmodified hits) instead of +1AP. Still 3 levels that affefct different weapons (the weapons listed below are not confirmed by my sources, but the ones in the legion traits are confirmed by my sources as well as the namez, so what I am about to list may be subject to change)
    Destruction ''Doctrine'': Heavy/grenade
    Massacre ''Doctrine'': Rapid fire/assault/pistol
    Slaughter ''Doctrine'': Assault/pistol/melee

    Marks:

    Can only be applied to CORE & CHARACTERS



    Icons:

    vengeance +1 CA
    wrath +1ap melee
    flame +1ap shooting
    excess +1 to hit melee
    despair 6s to hit = autowound



    All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems each (seems to be a lot from F&F but with some tweaks)



    Legion traits:



    NL

    -2LD & -1CA @ 9''
    +1 to advance & +1 to charges
    Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)



    IW

    Ignores cover
    Reduce ap1/2 by 1
    Wanton Destruction: Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)



    WB

    Charges/HI = reroll hits
    5+++ vs MW
    Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit) (Super doctrine)



    BL

    ignore CA
    +1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
    Wanton Massacre: rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit) (Super doctrine)



    EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)

    in the book
    have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)

    WE

    Not in the codex

    Red corsairs

    In the codex



    Creations of Bile

    In the codex



    Datasheet info:



    Cypher

    In the codex



    Cult units (berzerkers/rubrics/plague marines, only noise marines are stille in the codex because EC wont be getting their own book very soon)

    Are no longuer in the codex
    Act like harlequins in CWE army, or like Scions in Guard (including them is like including fabius bile, it doesnt cancel you legion trait)
    Always Elites
    can benefit from army rules
    Cannot gain a legion trait

    Fallen

    No in the codex

    Chosen

    3w
    can use TH (unconfirmed)

    Terminators

    Loadout options similar to DG blightlords



    Mutilators

    no longer in the book



    Warp talon

    lost cancel overwatch
    gained no fallback
    5a (these are total with claws)



    Raptors

    still have the -1LD aura
    +2a



    Obliterators

    can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
    in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
    3 different shooting profiles



    Havocs

    exactly the same as right now but 2w



    Stratagems

    something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
    NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
    NL vox scream disables AURAS

    Other:

    IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage (damage buff is a WLT)
    New cultist unit HQ
    New mutant culstists



    Most important points:
    Clarification on trait/doctrine interaction
    Terminators have Blightlord style weapon options (RIP)
    Cult units other than Noise Marines removed from the book but still usable


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 02:25:14


    Post by: Togusa


    This looks hella fake to me, just like all that Eldar stuff about hoods and antennas. 3W Chosen?? The WB and BL army traits don't make any sense and do not resemble anything that is 9th Ed design.

    My feeling is most, if not all of this is fake.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 02:28:01


    Post by: drbored


     Togusa wrote:
    This looks hella fake to me, just like all that Eldar stuff about hoods and antennas. 3W Chosen?? The WB and BL army traits don't make any sense and do not resemble anything that is 9th Ed design.

    My feeling is most, if not all of this is fake.


    Sure, it's totally possible that it's all fake. But, that's why it's a rumor. Still fun to speculate


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 02:35:02


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are not in the codex? And our Terminators have lost the ability to take any combination of available weapons they've had for 26 years? Well I'm officially hoping this is a fake. As if that Night Lords trait wasn't bad enough......


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 04:11:22


    Post by: The Red Hobbit


    Yeah Termies losing weapon options would be awful. Have they set a release date yet for the CSM codex?



    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 04:19:36


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     The Red Hobbit wrote:
    Have they set a release date yet for the CSM codex?
    They haven't even announced that it exists yet.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 04:42:18


    Post by: The Red Hobbit


    That's a shame. If WE do get spun off into their own codex I imagine it'll be a ways later as well.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 04:47:44


    Post by: Laughing Man


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are not in the codex? And our Terminators have lost the ability to take any combination of available weapons they've had for 26 years? Well I'm officially hoping this is a fake. As if that Night Lords trait wasn't bad enough......

    It's almost certainly a fake. The Terminator box can't make enough terminators with the same loadout to go the Blightlord route.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 05:00:17


    Post by: tneva82


     Laughing Man wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are not in the codex? And our Terminators have lost the ability to take any combination of available weapons they've had for 26 years? Well I'm officially hoping this is a fake. As if that Night Lords trait wasn't bad enough......

    It's almost certainly a fake. The Terminator box can't make enough terminators with the same loadout to go the Blightlord route.


    Or reference was convoluted datasheet with only options that come in box and any configuration not in box(like 5 with chainaxe) is illegal.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 05:06:53


    Post by: Laughing Man


    tneva82 wrote:
     Laughing Man wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are not in the codex? And our Terminators have lost the ability to take any combination of available weapons they've had for 26 years? Well I'm officially hoping this is a fake. As if that Night Lords trait wasn't bad enough......

    It's almost certainly a fake. The Terminator box can't make enough terminators with the same loadout to go the Blightlord route.


    Or reference was convoluted datasheet with only options that come in box and any configuration not in box(like 5 with chainaxe) is illegal.

    Literally every unit like this has a default loadout, like plague swords or axes on the Blightlords. The only weapon with two in the terminator box is the power fists, and you certainly can't outfit the whole unit with them. You'd have to specify an exact loadout for the entire squad.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 05:14:31


    Post by: drbored


    Yeah, seeing Plague Marines, Berzerkers, and Rubric Marines as not only not in the codex but also not receiving Legion trait is a bit sus. That means in order to add in those very common units, you'd need to buy a whole other codex for one box.

    That's pants.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 05:50:00


    Post by: Marshal Loss


     Laughing Man wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are not in the codex? And our Terminators have lost the ability to take any combination of available weapons they've had for 26 years? Well I'm officially hoping this is a fake. As if that Night Lords trait wasn't bad enough......

    It's almost certainly a fake. The Terminator box can't make enough terminators with the same loadout to go the Blightlord route.


    Neither can Blightlords; the Blightlord box comes with 3x swords and 3x axes yet the default loadout is 5 with swords. The Chaos Terminator box could easily have a default loadout of 5x with chainaxes but "1 per 5 can change their chainaxe for (x), 1 per 5 can change their chainaxe for (x)", etc.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 06:26:24


    Post by: tneva82


     Laughing Man wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
     Laughing Man wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are not in the codex? And our Terminators have lost the ability to take any combination of available weapons they've had for 26 years? Well I'm officially hoping this is a fake. As if that Night Lords trait wasn't bad enough......

    It's almost certainly a fake. The Terminator box can't make enough terminators with the same loadout to go the Blightlord route.


    Or reference was convoluted datasheet with only options that come in box and any configuration not in box(like 5 with chainaxe) is illegal.

    Literally every unit like this has a default loadout, like plague swords or axes on the Blightlords. The only weapon with two in the terminator box is the power fists, and you certainly can't outfit the whole unit with them. You'd have to specify an exact loadout for the entire squad.


    Which they likely could do. More likely than them being exception to 9th ed style which are exceedingly rare.

    Or above style. Def not expecting everybody having same combi weapon if box doesn't come with 5 same combi weapons.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 06:39:26


    Post by: drbored


    I could see the default loadout being storm bolter and power fist but with plenty of the other options thrown in to customize your squad.

    As for the Chosen, I see them being similar to the Sword Brethren from Black Templar, where they can all be made with chainsword/pistol but a few can be given other weapons.

    Either way, we're very far from the old days of being able to give any model any weapon, sadly.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 08:20:44


    Post by: Dudeface


    drbored wrote:
    Yeah, seeing Plague Marines, Berzerkers, and Rubric Marines as not only not in the codex but also not receiving Legion trait is a bit sus. That means in order to add in those very common units, you'd need to buy a whole other codex for one box.

    That's pants.


    Yup, it's a kick in the nuts. I kinda see why they might do it, to prevent the same issues SM had for years with dodgy duplicate entries with different rules. But it does sting.

    On the flip side let's hope the marked units can compensate for them being gone now, rather than just being a keyword.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 08:42:10


    Post by: Fergie0044


    drbored wrote:
    Yeah, seeing Plague Marines, Berzerkers, and Rubric Marines as not only not in the codex but also not receiving Legion trait is a bit sus. That means in order to add in those very common units, you'd need to buy a whole other codex for one box.

    That's pants.


    This doesn't make a lick of sense! Doesn't the cover of the recent BL book have a Rubic and berzerker on it? Does this mean the codex will be "legion only" with no chaos warbands associated with nurgle or khorn getting any showing?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 09:21:12


    Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


     Fergie0044 wrote:
    drbored wrote:
    Yeah, seeing Plague Marines, Berzerkers, and Rubric Marines as not only not in the codex but also not receiving Legion trait is a bit sus. That means in order to add in those very common units, you'd need to buy a whole other codex for one box.

    That's pants.


    This doesn't make a lick of sense! Doesn't the cover of the recent BL book have a Rubic and berzerker on it? Does this mean the codex will be "legion only" with no chaos warbands associated with nurgle or khorn getting any showing?


    Well there's still hope these leaks are fake... But it does sound like something GW would do... I guess that if it's true we can definitely expect a stand alone EC codex, since it would mean GW rely aims to separate the mono god legions from the others. Looks like the merging of harlequins into Craftworld was a one time thing


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 09:53:04


    Post by: Eldarsif


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     xttz wrote:
    I suppose you can always see a pattern if you ignore any evidence to the contrary?
    Oh for crying out loud...

    Are you really going to sit there with a straight face and pretend that this weapon limiting via sprue isn't a thing?

    It's been happening in just about every Codex this edition, starting with Marines and the wacky Primaris Captain options. It happened to Plague Marines and Terminators. It happened to Skitarii. It happened to Wyches. It happened with Burna Boyz and Lootaz. With Ork Kommandos. It happened to Sword Brethren. Hell it was happening even before that, what with the old Brood Brother entry.

    Some escaped this (like the Sisters), and some don't have enough options in the first place for it to become an issue (Custodes), but please don't try and pretend like this isn't actually happening.


    I think it's mostly random. GSC Neophytes can have two of each weapon but sprue only has one of each.

    Also, Wyches were technically always limited to the sprue. It was bloodbrides that got that extra mileage and they technically never existed as an official model if one wants to be cheeky. Even in the Ork codex you have the new "sergeant" on burna boyz(limited to sprue) and then you have Nobz who can go all out on fittings. Then you have the Firstborn who can do whatever they want along with Sisters Retributors. Just feels like there is no rhyme or reason, or the oversight over the "grand plan" is just really, really bad(which it probably is).

    So I would kind of argue that it is random when and if this is applied. I do, however, think that Death Guard got hit the worst with this which they suffer still to this day with. Just makes Plague Marines such a weird unit to field.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     The Red Hobbit wrote:
    That's a shame. If WE do get spun off into their own codex I imagine it'll be a ways later as well.


    Unless there is a big reveal in LVO. Really hope we something big for our Chaos siblings.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 10:02:28


    Post by: DarkStarSabre


    Cypher in the Codex. Fallen, not in the Codex.

    Malal wept, the Fallen are just a tragedy of crappy rules design through and through.

    There was that brief moment in 8th where they could be taken with Imperium armies.... and then they became completely useless when they decided Imperium and Chaos no longer counted for Battleforged armies.

    And then they gave us a Specialist detachment which allowed them to pretend to be viable and actually game legal again.

    And then 9th went, haha, no Specialist Detachments allowed in Matched play.

    And then we got a WD article... which turned out to be a reprint word for word of the original Specialist Detachment rules. So once again, not valid in matched play.

    And now they're just being casually forgotten.

    Nevermind the fact the DA Veteran kit being used to push them has options they can't even take.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 10:08:18


    Post by: xttz


     Fergie0044 wrote:
    drbored wrote:
    Yeah, seeing Plague Marines, Berzerkers, and Rubric Marines as not only not in the codex but also not receiving Legion trait is a bit sus. That means in order to add in those very common units, you'd need to buy a whole other codex for one box.

    That's pants.


    This doesn't make a lick of sense! Doesn't the cover of the recent BL book have a Rubic and berzerker on it? Does this mean the codex will be "legion only" with no chaos warbands associated with nurgle or khorn getting any showing?


    There seems to be a definite effort in 9th to remove 'duplicate' datasheets where possible. GSC is the most obvious example with all the guard stuff gone now, plus there's all the convoluted marine units with special behaviour so they don't have to copy/paste similar datasheets into chapter supplements.

    Presumably it's to make maintaining the rules easier, but really it's yet another symptom of game rules still relying on printed materials in 2022.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 10:18:14


    Post by: Matt.Kingsley


    And yet Cultists and Daemon Princes exist in both the TSons and DG books, Chaos Lords are in the DG book and Sorcerers are in the TSons book.

    That's already a few shared units. It'd be weird for cult units to also be removed.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 10:27:04


    Post by: Arbitrator


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are not in the codex? And our Terminators have lost the ability to take any combination of available weapons they've had for 26 years? Well I'm officially hoping this is a fake. As if that Night Lords trait wasn't bad enough......

    It sounds stupid enough to be true.

    The one thing that makes me question it is World Eaters being removed from the codex. That'd feel like GW giving the game away far too early when they're usually very keen to play future releases close to their chest, at least outside of anything but Community/previews.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 10:32:15


    Post by: xttz


     Arbitrator wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are not in the codex? And our Terminators have lost the ability to take any combination of available weapons they've had for 26 years? Well I'm officially hoping this is a fake. As if that Night Lords trait wasn't bad enough......

    It sounds stupid enough to be true.

    The one thing that makes me question it is World Eaters being removed from the codex. That'd feel like GW giving the game away far too early when they're usually very keen to play future releases close to their chest, at least outside of anything but Community/previews.


    Black Templars got a downloadable PDF supplement alongside the marines codex, despite their book being around a year away. Fully expect to see the same treatment for WE if their codex isn't due soon.

    It's still not clear yet who will share the summer boxed set with marines; CSM or WE.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 10:56:50


    Post by: Fergie0044


     xttz wrote:
    There seems to be a definite effort in 9th to remove 'duplicate' datasheets where possible. GSC is the most obvious example with all the guard stuff gone now, plus there's all the convoluted marine units with special behaviour so they don't have to copy/paste similar datasheets into chapter supplements.

    Presumably it's to make maintaining the rules easier, but really it's yet another symptom of game rules still relying on printed materials in 2022.


    Apart from the obvious "make rules digital" solution, GW could always create a PDF portal on WarCom. You go there, enter the unique code that each codex has for the app now and it then provides you with any additional datasheets you need, with these PDFs being kept up to date. So I could use a GSC code to get access to the relevant datasheets from the guard codex and likewise for these future chaos releases. It could also be used to add the various deamons back into the DG and TS codexs!


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 10:57:38


    Post by: Gert


    Nah I call BS on the Cult units being removed, and you can't just use "hur dur GW dumb" as reasoning for that being true.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 11:19:43


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     Gert wrote:
    Nah I call BS on the Cult units being removed, and you can't just use "hur dur GW dumb" as reasoning for that being true.

    Yeah, I have to agree with you on that. It causes several problems:

    1: Cult Marines have been in every CSM codex for the last 26 years. It would be bizarre to change that.

    2: If the datasheets for Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are removed, but you can still use them, then you'd need four codexes for the complete rules for the army. Three of which would just be for one unit each. I know we expect gw to grab for cash at every opportunity, but that sounds like a bridge too far.

    3: No Legion traits for any of them. While I can kind of see them doing that to Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Word Bearers (they've done similar before), Black Legion? No. Having a full selection of all of the various CSM forces is part of their lore, and has been the same for rules. They have their own Berzerkers (the Hounds of Abaddon), their own Plague Marines (the Bringers of Decay), their own Rubrics (Sons of the Cyclops), and their own Noise Marines (the Children of Torment). Penalizing them for bringing them makes no sense.

    This is the straw that breaks the camel's back for me. I can't believe these leaks are completely true.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 11:25:31


    Post by: Gert


    Exactly Gad, I mean there have been specific examples of at least the Word Bearers using Berzerkers before and the Alpha Legion aren't ones to turn down free assets. I stand by my belief that this is bunk.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 11:36:25


    Post by: Arbitrator


     Gert wrote:
    Nah I call BS on the Cult units being removed, and you can't just use "hur dur GW dumb" as reasoning for that being true.

    GSC lost Brood Brother units despite them having a kit for it, so it's not like there isn't a precedent, right down to the rule about not losing traits if you include them from another codex.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 11:42:26


    Post by: Gert


     Arbitrator wrote:
    GSC lost Brood Brother units despite them having a kit for it, so it's not like there isn't a precedent, right down to the rule about not losing traits if you include them from another codex.

    Brood Brothers were a worse copy-paste of the Guardsman Squad, yes you have to take a full detachment to use them or just use them as Neophytes but it's so not the same thing for units that have been a staple of an army for over like 30 years. And as a side note, if you wanted to field any Brood Brothers unit that wasn't worse Guardsmen, Russ's or Sentinels you still needed the Guard Codex. If this rumour is true, CMS players will need to buy 4 whole new Codexes (if EC end up with a new one) to get access to four units. Not the same thing at all.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 11:47:18


    Post by: blood reaper


    Best to prepare for the worst possible outcomes.

    The only thing I can't prepare for will be the people who find ways to try and defend these changes; that level of consumer ghoulishness is a little too much for me.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 11:48:59


    Post by: Arbitrator


     Gert wrote:
     Arbitrator wrote:
    GSC lost Brood Brother units despite them having a kit for it, so it's not like there isn't a precedent, right down to the rule about not losing traits if you include them from another codex.

    Brood Brothers were a worse copy-paste of the Guardsman Squad, yes you have to take a full detachment to use them or just use them as Neophytes but it's so not the same thing for units that have been a staple of an army for over like 30 years. And as a side note, if you wanted to field any Brood Brothers unit that wasn't worse Guardsmen, Russ's or Sentinels you still needed the Guard Codex. If this rumour is true, CMS players will need to buy 4 whole new Codexes (if EC end up with a new one) to get access to four units. Not the same thing at all.

    And? Plague Marines/Rubrics in the CSM codex are a worse copy-paste of them from their respective Legion codex. The same goes for their new, unique Legion units. It's no different to Brood Brothers in the GSC codex in that you were getting a slightly worse version and had to dip into another codex to get the 'full' Guard experience.

    Having yanked the Brood Brothers stuff, GSC are now left with a whopping 1 Heavy Support choice.

    I'm not defending it obviously, but I can absolutely believe GW will pull them.



    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 12:03:02


    Post by: Duskweaver


    I've said it before, but I am not going to buy five (EDIT: actually four for now, but presumably five next edition once EC have their own codex) codexes just to get the dataslates for all my Black Legion cult units. No BL player with any sense at all is going to do that. Especially given GW's apparent addiction to 3-year edition cycles. Are GW actively trying to make piracy seem like not just a valid option but the only reasonable option?

    Assuming the rumour of cult units not being in the main CSM codex anymore is accurate, of course.

    EDIT: I'm actually OK with them losing legion traits though, as long as they are good enough units not to need said traits to be viable. Standard fluff for cult units is that they're often mercenaries or otherwise somewhat separate culturally from the legion or warband they're currently fighting with.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 12:07:50


    Post by: Wha-Mu-077


     Duskweaver wrote:
    I've said it before, but I am not going to buy five codexes just to get the dataslates for all my Black Legion cult units. No BL player with any sense at all is going to do that. Especially given GW's apparent addiction to 3-year edition cycles. Are GW actively trying to make piracy seem like not just a valid option but the only reasonable option?


    For every person that switches to piracy, there's ten shmucks that are simply gonna put up with buying 250$ of Codexes every 3 years or so. So it'd be a huge net profit for them.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 12:31:30


    Post by: Dudeface


     Arbitrator wrote:
     Gert wrote:
     Arbitrator wrote:
    GSC lost Brood Brother units despite them having a kit for it, so it's not like there isn't a precedent, right down to the rule about not losing traits if you include them from another codex.

    Brood Brothers were a worse copy-paste of the Guardsman Squad, yes you have to take a full detachment to use them or just use them as Neophytes but it's so not the same thing for units that have been a staple of an army for over like 30 years. And as a side note, if you wanted to field any Brood Brothers unit that wasn't worse Guardsmen, Russ's or Sentinels you still needed the Guard Codex. If this rumour is true, CMS players will need to buy 4 whole new Codexes (if EC end up with a new one) to get access to four units. Not the same thing at all.

    And? Plague Marines/Rubrics in the CSM codex are a worst copy-paste of them from their respective Legion codex. The same goes for their new, unique Legion units. It's no different to Brood Brothers in the GSC codex in that you were getting a slightly worse version and had to dip into another codex to get the 'full' Guard experience.

    Having yanked the Brood Brothers stuff, GSC are now left with a whopping 1 Heavy Support choice.

    I'm not defend it obviously, but I can absolutely believe GW will pull them.


    I agree with this, not saying it's good, or the right thing to do, but it's certainly not entirely removed from their train of thought recently.

    On the flip side, if mark of khorne now gives fight twice or +1S and reroll charges or something, then you can just run your zerkers as khornate marines. I'd hope if the cult units get gimped a little then it's compensated elsewhere for god representation.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 12:38:18


    Post by: Irbis


     Gert wrote:
    Nah I call BS on the Cult units being removed, and you can't just use "hur dur GW dumb" as reasoning for that being true.

    What says fake to me is which cult units are removed. Why would WE getting their own book before EC? Not only EC had been hinted much more heavily in fluff, but GW historically been doing AoS and 40K chaos updates together. What was last AoS update? Slaanesh.

    Also, why would chosen get 3 wounds? Not only this steps on toes of the terminators, but stern/vanguard and veteran intercessors, functionally identical to chosen, all have 2 wounds. Unless these units go to 3 wounds too in next SM book - presumably to fix idiotic mistake with giving squats W2 and proliferation of D2 weapons deleting centuries old veterans with laughable ease - though then Tau are ahead of the curve seeing the amount of broken D3+ shooting they have


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 12:39:10


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     Arbitrator wrote:
    Spoiler:
     Gert wrote:
     Arbitrator wrote:
    GSC lost Brood Brother units despite them having a kit for it, so it's not like there isn't a precedent, right down to the rule about not losing traits if you include them from another codex.

    Brood Brothers were a worse copy-paste of the Guardsman Squad, yes you have to take a full detachment to use them or just use them as Neophytes but it's so not the same thing for units that have been a staple of an army for over like 30 years. And as a side note, if you wanted to field any Brood Brothers unit that wasn't worse Guardsmen, Russ's or Sentinels you still needed the Guard Codex. If this rumour is true, CMS players will need to buy 4 whole new Codexes (if EC end up with a new one) to get access to four units. Not the same thing at all.

    And? Plague Marines/Rubrics in the CSM codex are a worst copy-paste of them from their respective Legion codex. The same goes for their new, unique Legion units. It's no different to Brood Brothers in the GSC codex in that you were getting a slightly worse version and had to dip into another codex to get the 'full' Guard experience.

    Having yanked the Brood Brothers stuff, GSC are now left with a whopping 1 Heavy Support choice.

    I'm not defend it obviously, but I can absolutely believe GW will pull them.

    Right, the "full" Guard experience. So, everything with the <Regiment> keyword, which is 29 datasheets. So, 1 $50 Guard codex gets GSC 29 datasheets that they can use as Brood Brothers. Meanwhile, if this leak is true, CSM players will pay $50 for one Plague Marines datasheet, then another $50 for one Rubric Marines datasheet, and then another $50 for one Berzerkers datasheet. That's a level of insanity that I wouldn't even expect from gw.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 12:41:37


    Post by: Arbitrator


     Irbis wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    Nah I call BS on the Cult units being removed, and you can't just use "hur dur GW dumb" as reasoning for that being true.

    What says fake to me is which cult units are removed. Why would WE getting their own book before EC? Not only EC had been hinted much more heavily in fluff, but GW historically been doing AoS and 40K chaos updates together. What was last AoS update? Slaanesh.

    All the rumours from reliable sources have said World Eaters are next, including the chap who's been correct about everything Kill-Team onwards.

     Gadzilla666 wrote:

    Right, the "full" Guard experience. So, everything with the <Regiment> keyword, which is 29 datasheets. So, 1 $50 Guard codex gets GSC 29 datasheets that they can use as Brood Brothers. Meanwhile, if this leak is true, CSM players will pay $50 for one Plague Marines datasheet, then another $50 for one Rubric Marines datasheet, and then another $50 for one Berzerkers datasheet. That's a level of insanity that I wouldn't even expect from gw.

    Didn't they pull Storm Troopers from the 6th edition Guard codex so you had to buy the Tempestus Scion codex or am I remembering wrong?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 12:41:55


    Post by: Crimson


     Irbis wrote:

    Also, why would chosen get 3 wounds? Not only this steps on toes of the terminators, but stern/vanguard and veteran intercessors, functionally identical to chosen, all have 2 wounds.

    Bladeguard have three wounds though.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 12:52:02


    Post by: Geifer


     Duskweaver wrote:
    EDIT: I'm actually OK with them losing legion traits though, as long as they are good enough units not to need said traits to be viable. Standard fluff for cult units is that they're often mercenaries or otherwise somewhat separate culturally from the legion or warband they're currently fighting with.


    Considering that the current design if for units to have a comparatively basic datasheet that has layers of rules added from several sources to let them unfold their full potential, I doubt you'd actually see cult units be considered viable if they miss out on at least one of those sources.

    You may also have to consider if the stratagems from their cult legion codices still apply if you make the cult units Black Legion. Also if these units don't get the full rules from their parent codex, do they still pay the same points? And if they don't, do you want to include their points in a codex that doesn't have rules for them or alternate points in their own codex that have no use unless you use them in a different army?

    It's a mess and not likely to result in units that couldn't be done better by generic Chaos Marine units with full special rules support.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 12:52:56


    Post by: chaos0xomega


     Togusa wrote:
    This looks hella fake to me, just like all that Eldar stuff about hoods and antennas. 3W Chosen?? The WB and BL army traits don't make any sense and do not resemble anything that is 9th Ed design.

    My feeling is most, if not all of this is fake.


    Same, mainly because of the total lack of mention about Alpha Legion whatsoever, not even an acknowledgement of them not being in the codex ala World Eaters... almost like the "leaker" completely forgot that they existed when they decided to make this gak up.

     The Red Hobbit wrote:
    That's a shame. If WE do get spun off into their own codex I imagine it'll be a ways later as well.


    Supposed to not be in the first half of the year based the reliable rumors that leaked Black Templars, Custodes, GSC, Tau, and Aeldari details mid/late last year. World Eaters were listed as being "in the works but not on the release schedule yet" or something to that effect. The leakers rumors ended with CSM/Aeldari and then a list of stuff that was farther out. That could mean later this year, next year, or 10 years from now.

     Matt.Kingsley wrote:
    And yet Cultists and Daemon Princes exist in both the TSons and DG books, Chaos Lords are in the DG book and Sorcerers are in the TSons book.
    That's already a few shared units. It'd be weird for cult units to also be removed.

    The Daemon Princes are "Thousand Sons Daemon Prince" and "Death Guard Daemon Prince" so not really duplicate.
    Same with Cultists.
    Death Guard have "Death Guard Chaos Lord" so again not a duplicate.
    BUT curiously the Sorcerer in the Thousand Sons books is JUST a Sorcerer, which raises some questions - its possible there won't be "Sorcerers" in the new CSM book and they will be called "Malefic Librarian" or something like that.
    Presumably they didn't want to put an entry in the CSM book for "Black Legion Rubric Marines" or something.




    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 12:59:31


    Post by: xttz


    chaos0xomega wrote:

    The Daemon Princes are "Thousand Sons Daemon Prince" and "Death Guard Daemon Prince" so not really duplicate.


    Yeah IIRC those units have more substantial changes than just keywords; different special rules, wargear options, saving throw, psychic abilities, etc.

    Certainly a much bigger difference than something like Brood Brothers units would have had if they'd been reprinted in another codex.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 13:51:27


    Post by: Kid_Kyoto


     Gadzilla666 wrote:

    2: If the datasheets for Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are removed, but you can still use them, then you'd need four codexes for the complete rules for the army. Three of which would just be for one unit each. I know we expect gw to grab for cash at every opportunity, but that sounds like a bridge too far.



    Of all the things in this thread I find "GW will try to make us spend $200 on more books so we can include 4 units" to be the most believable by far.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 13:53:12


    Post by: The Red Hobbit


    chaos0xomega wrote:

     The Red Hobbit wrote:
    That's a shame. If WE do get spun off into their own codex I imagine it'll be a ways later as well.


    Supposed to not be in the first half of the year based the reliable rumors that leaked Black Templars, Custodes, GSC, Tau, and Aeldari details mid/late last year. World Eaters were listed as being "in the works but not on the release schedule yet" or something to that effect. The leakers rumors ended with CSM/Aeldari and then a list of stuff that was farther out. That could mean later this year, next year, or 10 years from now.

    I was hoping they'd be releasing the Eldar & CSM Codexes around the same time to go with the box set they're releasing. Certainly hope they don't make us wait till late in the year for that 2nd Wound.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 13:53:17


    Post by: Kanluwen


     Gadzilla666 wrote:

    Right, the "full" Guard experience. So, everything with the <Regiment> keyword, which is 29 datasheets. So, 1 $50 Guard codex gets GSC 29 datasheets that they can use as Brood Brothers. Meanwhile, if this leak is true, CSM players will pay $50 for one Plague Marines datasheet, then another $50 for one Rubric Marines datasheet, and then another $50 for one Berzerkers datasheet. That's a level of insanity that I wouldn't even expect from gw.

    The GSC comparison is...yeah. Unless you want to pretend that there was the full 29 datasheets in the previous codex? They were still buying that book. There was the Sentinel, Brood Brothers Infantry Squad, and Leman Russ...maybe the Heavy Weapon Squad too?


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Arbitrator wrote:

    Didn't they pull Storm Troopers from the 6th edition Guard codex so you had to buy the Tempestus Scion codex or am I remembering wrong?

    They were not pulled.

    Scions weirdly were more numerous in the Guard book than the Scion book. They were taken as Platoons in the Guard book and Squads in the Scions book.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 13:55:29


    Post by: Kid_Kyoto


     Arbitrator wrote:

    Didn't they pull Storm Troopers from the 6th edition Guard codex so you had to buy the Tempestus Scion codex or am I remembering wrong?


    They were SLIGHTLY more subtle than that. They released Codex Tempestus Scions a week or two before Codex Astres Militarium (or however it's spelled, the Guard) so people would assume the new book with the pseudo Latin name was the guard book when in fact it just had 2 units (Scions and Tauroxes). Then codex AM came out with Scions, Taurox and all the other IG units and everyone in Nottingham had a good laugh on their way to bathe in gold coins.

    Or so I assume.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 13:58:17


    Post by: Kanluwen


     Kid_Kyoto wrote:

    Or so I assume.

    You would assume wrong.

    It was known at the time of release that Tempestus was in addition to the Guard book.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 14:04:49


    Post by: Eldarsif


     xttz wrote:
    chaos0xomega wrote:

    The Daemon Princes are "Thousand Sons Daemon Prince" and "Death Guard Daemon Prince" so not really duplicate.


    Yeah IIRC those units have more substantial changes than just keywords; different special rules, wargear options, saving throw, psychic abilities, etc.

    Certainly a much bigger difference than something like Brood Brothers units would have had if they'd been reprinted in another codex.


    Yep, they fixed a lot of the "base" Death Guard units - like the Chaos Lord - to actually have Death Guard abilities and such. For example the Death Guard Chaos Lord got bumped to T5 which was a welcome change. Same goes for the DG Chaos Sorcerer Lord in Terminator Armor.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 14:09:41


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    For all the wailing about the loadout for Termies- When I bought my box it came with enough Lightning Claws that each of mine could have 2 of them. Granted I only had 1 heavy weapon (a hvy flamer) but that's what I wanted anyway. How did I do this? I bought the Cataphract box. As far as CSM go there are only Terminators so the various armor types are style choices and nothing else. Also, since Catapharact armor was around during the 30K wars it's thematic to have some in your army if you play with that back story.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 14:20:08


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


    So you didn't buy a Chaos Terminator box, and thus think the complaints about weapon load outs in the Chaos Terminator box - again, something you didn't buy - are unfounded?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 14:32:12


    Post by: Wha-Mu-077


    "You're not restricted in your loadouts by what came in the box, if you just proxy something diffrent as the unit."

    Truly flawless argument.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 14:35:56


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    H.B.M.C. - No, I do not think that the complaints are unfounded. In fact I stated the exact same complaint in a thread when the chosen were previewed. I'm merely pointing out that there are options out there and GW should consider that there are other Terminator Box sets out there that are applicable to CSM. This is in contrast to how many box sets there are of Plague Marine Terminators (1). Do I believe that they did consider that? No, but they should have.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 14:40:24


    Post by: Dudeface


     Irbis wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    Nah I call BS on the Cult units being removed, and you can't just use "hur dur GW dumb" as reasoning for that being true.

    What says fake to me is which cult units are removed. Why would WE getting their own book before EC? Not only EC had been hinted much more heavily in fluff, but GW historically been doing AoS and 40K chaos updates together. What was last AoS update? Slaanesh.


    WE are active near Baal and on armageddon in recent fluff, or at least khornate forces are. Also blades of khorne is one of the oldest sigmar books, so due a refresh soon, your logic is proving the opposite here as the window for a 40k slaanesh was last year by your reckoning.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 14:53:41


    Post by: Kanluwen


    World Eaters, purportedly, have been done designwise since the Khorne Daemonkin book.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 15:34:04


    Post by: nathan2004


    That was a longggg time ago, wonder why you sit on it for this long?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 15:37:58


    Post by: Wha-Mu-077


     nathan2004 wrote:
    That was a longggg time ago, wonder why you sit on it for this long?


    Well, the updated Castellan Crowe model was already done like, what, 5-6 years before it's reveal? As confirmed by the guy who painted it. So GW sits on some things for a good while for various reasons.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 15:51:54


    Post by: Kanluwen


    Grain o' salt time but there was some mention of "redesigns" to something, model-wise, that ended up pushing the whole bit back.

    Makes me think it was Angron that had changes to the design.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 15:59:30


    Post by: Dudeface


     Kanluwen wrote:
    Grain o' salt time but there was some mention of "redesigns" to something, model-wise, that ended up pushing the whole bit back.

    Makes me think it was Angron that had changes to the design.


    It was back in the Hastings day, he claimed to have seen the prototypes for the primarchs but that some had to go back to the drawing board. I imagine Angron ended up too close to the thirster maybe?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 16:37:56


    Post by: Kid_Kyoto


    I was kind of surprised the Thirster didn't have an alternate Angron build. Especially since the various versions of it are kind of samey.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 16:49:09


    Post by: chaos0xomega


     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
     Arbitrator wrote:

    Didn't they pull Storm Troopers from the 6th edition Guard codex so you had to buy the Tempestus Scion codex or am I remembering wrong?


    They were SLIGHTLY more subtle than that. They released Codex Tempestus Scions a week or two before Codex Astres Militarium (or however it's spelled, the Guard) so people would assume the new book with the pseudo Latin name was the guard book when in fact it just had 2 units (Scions and Tauroxes). Then codex AM came out with Scions, Taurox and all the other IG units and everyone in Nottingham had a good laugh on their way to bathe in gold coins.

    Or so I assume.


    Jokes on you/them. I bought that book on discount at release and then turned around and sold it for over $100 2 years later.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    That was a longggg time ago, wonder why you sit on it for this long?


    "Done" in this case doesn't mean molds cut and minis production ready. Rather it means that they completed sculpting and maybe some preliminary fluff/rules development, etc. In general the studio is working a few years ahead of the release schedule (typically 2-3 years, but I've heard that some stuff is designed 5+ years in advance of its release depending on available production capacity, often what happens is that they design substantially more stuff than what they release at once, for example the recent AdMech cav and flyers were sculpted back when the original AdMech mini range was being worked on in 7th.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 16:56:36


    Post by: xttz


     Kanluwen wrote:
    Grain o' salt time but there was some mention of "redesigns" to something, model-wise, that ended up pushing the whole bit back.

    Makes me think it was Angron that had changes to the design.


    I wonder if they're going to release WE in parallel for the new Horus Heresy edition. With the relaunch the timeline can reach the Siege of Terra with daemon primarchs on the loose. It's at the point where the same models could double up in both 30k and 40k.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 19:33:53


    Post by: Gert


     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
    Of all the things in this thread I find "GW will try to make us spend $200 on more books so we can include 4 units" to be the most believable by far.

    When has that happened ever. Seriously, I want an example of when GW took units from one army book and put them into another army book with the caveat that you could still use those units in the first army while not gaining access to any of the other units in the second army book.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 19:45:56


    Post by: Voss


     Gert wrote:
     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
    Of all the things in this thread I find "GW will try to make us spend $200 on more books so we can include 4 units" to be the most believable by far.

    When has that happened ever. Seriously, I want an example of when GW took units from one army book and put them into another army book with the caveat that you could still use those units in the first army while not gaining access to any of the other units in the second army book.


    Wasn't that... last week?
    I know you're going to quibble since you've added that 'not gaining access to any of the other units' (even though that isn't actually true for chaos allies either, since you can work around it with other faction keywords like Nurgle or Tzeentch)

    For varying degrees of taking things away, but convoluted allies rules involving other books, see also Leman Russ Exterminators, Stormtroopers, Inquisition in general, Assassins, Basilisks, Daemons, Harlequins, Ynnari, assorted artillery pieces (mole mortars, rapiers, etc), robots... hmm. That seems like enough


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 19:55:27


    Post by: Kid_Kyoto


     Gert wrote:
     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
    Of all the things in this thread I find "GW will try to make us spend $200 on more books so we can include 4 units" to be the most believable by far.

    When has that happened ever. Seriously, I want an example of when GW took units from one army book and put them into another army book with the caveat that you could still use those units in the first army while not gaining access to any of the other units in the second army book.


    Splitting Chaos Marines and Daemons?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 20:10:16


    Post by: spiralingcadaver


     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
     Gert wrote:
     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
    Of all the things in this thread I find "GW will try to make us spend $200 on more books so we can include 4 units" to be the most believable by far.

    When has that happened ever. Seriously, I want an example of when GW took units from one army book and put them into another army book with the caveat that you could still use those units in the first army while not gaining access to any of the other units in the second army book.


    Splitting Chaos Marines and Daemons?

    Splitting Grey Knights and Inquisition?
    Splitting Sisters and Inquisition?
    Splitting Deathwatch and Inquisition? I mean just retconning Deathwatch to not be tied to Inquisition but they never made a book...
    Chaos cultists mutants etc. who have continually wandered into and out of CSM or supported rules in general?
    Splitting Harlequins and E/DE (not clear how this will pan out in 9th I think?)


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 20:14:45


    Post by: Marshal Loss


    By far the most bizarre rumour yet:


    Ok here is a weird one...

    Greater possessed are supposedly not in the codex

    Regular possessed
    S5 t5 w3 5a

    So either the greater possessed sculpts are going to be used as normal possessed

    Either these playtester ruleset he has is something special

    Or maybe hes trying to blurr the line because of all the attention this is getting. My info was on Valrak and spikey bits, so weve gobe full on mainstream.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 20:32:58


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    Greater Possessed are new models. This is getting fishier......


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 20:35:02


    Post by: Dudeface


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Greater Possessed are new models. This is getting fishier......


    Maybe the idea is the new possessed are all 40mm beasty boys, so old greater possessed are the size of the new ones?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 20:47:45


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    Dudeface wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Greater Possessed are new models. This is getting fishier......


    Maybe the idea is the new possessed are all 40mm beasty boys, so old greater possessed are the size of the new ones?

    Possibly. But that wouldn't necessitate removing Greater Possessed from the codex. They're character units that buff other <DAEMON> units, not a basic elite infantry unit like Possessed.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 21:27:44


    Post by: The Red Hobbit


    That would be extremely weird for Greater Possessed to be pulled from the Codex. It's not like they belong in Chaos Daemons either.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 21:33:35


    Post by: Laughing Man


    It'd also be extremely weird for Possessed to get a new statline, when we already have one in Codex Death Guard.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 22:01:28


    Post by: AarresaariAarre


     Laughing Man wrote:
    It'd also be extremely weird for Possessed to get a new statline, when we already have one in Codex Death Guard.

    While it sounds quite weird (but tasty to be honest), you have to remember that Death Guard Possessed have no real DG models which is very rare. They kinda exist only because they still give a reason to buy those old ass generic csm models and might as well be dropped in the next iteration, same with the vanilla chaos lords and terminator sorc. If GW wants to shake things up with new Possessed models they can easily do so without paying much attention to the DG ones as they have their own prefix and are there to please the people who have bought those antique models. And if they so wish, they can then upgrade them to again be same datasheet as the new CSM posssessed, which I doubt because they don’t seem to encourage model sharing between codexes.

    Then again I’m still a bit skeptical about the matter, because I myself have been told by another source that the new Possessed unit size will be the same 5-10 that the DG ones have, which doesn’t sound like a 3W 40mm base size unit. I can’t provide any proof of course, but I was going to buy from my source 15 Possessed models but then he warned me that their unit max will drop after which I bought only 10. Could be lying, but there wouldn’t have neen any benefit from it.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 22:05:57


    Post by: Laughing Man


     AarresaariAarre wrote:
     Laughing Man wrote:
    It'd also be extremely weird for Possessed to get a new statline, when we already have one in Codex Death Guard.

    While it sounds quite weird (but tasty to be honest), you have to remember that Death Guard Possessed have no real DG models which is very rare. They kinda exist only because they still give a reason to buy those old ass generic csm models and might as well be dropped in the next iteration, same with the vanilla chaos lords and terminator sorc. If GW wants to shake things up with new Possessed models they can easily do so without paying much attention to the DG ones as they have their own prefix and are there to please the people who have bought those antique models. And if they so wish, they can then upgrade them to again be same datasheet as the new CSM posssessed, which I doubt because they don’t seem to encourage model sharing between codexes.

    Counterpoint: Literally every daemon engine in the Thousand Sons codex.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 22:34:42


    Post by: AarresaariAarre


    A good counterpoint! Thousand Sons have much fewer units than Death Guard however, so they kinda need to encourage sharing there. Plus Thousand Sons daemon engines are based on modern unit designs, whereas DG Possessed use legacy models. Could mean that they too might get updated rule in 10th codex however, if all this is even true.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 22:47:51


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     AarresaariAarre wrote:
    A good counterpoint! Thousand Sons have much fewer units than Death Guard however, so they kinda need to encourage sharing there. Plus Thousand Sons daemon engines are based on modern unit designs, whereas DG Possessed use legacy models. Could mean that they too might get updated rule in 10th codex however, if all this is even true.

    Those "legacy models" that Death Guard use for their Possessed are the same models that CSM currently use for ours. If we get new models for Possessed, Death Guard will be able to use those as well. Just like all of the other shared units, like: Land Raiders, Predators, Rhinos, Cultists, Defilers, Hellbrutes, all of our fw options, etc, etc.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 23:10:09


    Post by: Gert


    @Kid_Kyoto
    Spoiler:
     Kid_Kyoto wrote:
    Splitting Chaos Marines and Daemons?

    Could you use Daemons in a CSM list or CSM in a Daemons list prior to the addition of the Lesser Daemons in the 8th Ed Codex? If not then nice try but not an answer to the question posed.


    @Voss
    Spoiler:
    Voss wrote:

    Wasn't that... last week?
    I know you're going to quibble since you've added that 'not gaining access to any of the other units' (even though that isn't actually true for chaos allies either, since you can work around it with other faction keywords like Nurgle or Tzeentch)

    For varying degrees of taking things away, but convoluted allies rules involving other books, see also Leman Russ Exterminators, Stormtroopers, Inquisition in general, Assassins, Basilisks, Daemons, Harlequins, Ynnari, assorted artillery pieces (mole mortars, rapiers, etc), robots... hmm. That seems like enough

    Are you talking about Brood Brothers getting changed from 4 units in the GSC Codex to the entire Guard Codex being an option that has rules interactions with GSC while still maintaining Orders and 100% of its roster and equipment? Plus its not quibble to expect people to answer the question instead of cherry-picking which bits they want to answer.
    But so far, none of the things you have listed fill the criteria of the question I posed. Nice try though.


    @spiralingcadaver
    Spoiler:
     spiralingcadaver wrote:

    Splitting Grey Knights and Inquisition?
    Splitting Sisters and Inquisition?
    Splitting Deathwatch and Inquisition? I mean just retconning Deathwatch to not be tied to Inquisition but they never made a book...
    Chaos cultists mutants etc. who have continually wandered into and out of CSM or supported rules in general?
    Splitting Harlequins and E/DE (not clear how this will pan out in 9th I think?)

    Again, none of those Codexes were in the situation of taking from Codex A as the main list and only being allowed a single entry from Codex B.


    For a general reply to all three of you, read the question again and actually read it this time.

    As for the Greater Possessed thing;
    Spoiler:


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 23:34:20


    Post by: spiralingcadaver


     Gert wrote:
    For a general reply to all three of you, read the question again and actually read it this time.
    Ok my turn. Write the question again and actually write it coherently this time if no one got it.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/26 23:54:37


    Post by: Gert


     spiralingcadaver wrote:
    Ok my turn. Write the question again and actually write it coherently this time if no one got it.

    Seems perfectly coherent to me but sure.

    When has GW ever written a Codex (A), removed a unit/units and placed them into a separate Codex (B), and indicated that said unit/units that are now in Codex B can still be used in a list taken from Codex A but not a single other unit from Codex B, forcing you to buy Codex B for potentially a single unit.
    For example, removing Plague Marines from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, placing them into Codex: Death Guard, and saying CSM can still take Plague Marines but not any other unit from DG and you have to buy Codex: DG to use Plague Marines.
    When has this ever happened?

    If this seems like a very confusing and stupid question, that's because it is. It is the situation that Kid_Kyoto said they believed was something GW would do and I'm a little bit tired of people just making up BS to be mad about.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 00:00:06


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    Assassins- I know that they were in one Codex then they were dropped from it only to get a mini codex of their own that said that they could be used in the new version of the codex that they were originally in.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 00:05:56


    Post by: Gert


    Which Assassins book is that? I've found the 2nd Ed and 3rd Ed books, and I know they were folded into Grey Knights in 5th Ed then became a PDF list in 6th where they could be added to any Imperial force. I don't think it would be related to the 3rd Ed Daemonhunters or Witchhunters books since (unless my info is wrong) they were released after the 3rd Ed Assassins book (which was surprising to learn was 24 pages long for an army that consisted of 4 units).


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 00:14:41


    Post by: Eldenfirefly


    Well, my view is that if GW can release Tsons as a book of its own with such a small unit range, then they can very do that with either Emperor's children or World Eaters. It all depends on their whim and fancy really.

    Like Tsons basically just had rubrics, occult terminators and Magnus as distinct models. The rest like Mutalith Beasts and Tzangors are from AOS.

    So, World Eaters is easier because we already have plastic Berserkers. We just need Red butcher terminators and Angron (if you want a big center piece). They can then pick one or two units from AOS Khorne and they are done, just like with Tsons. In fact, they can skip releasing Angron and it would still be fine. I don't insist I need to have Angron leading my world eaters. I am fine with Kharn if they make his new rules bad ass.

    Emperor's Children can be done too. At a bare minimum they just need to have a new Noise Marine kit. To be honest, I don't think Noise terminators have been a big part of what defines Emperor's Children. Its mainly just the noise marines. Maybe release a new Emperor's Children Character kit and we are done. It doesn't even have to be Fulgrim.

    In fact, even if they did release Angron or Fulgrim, I am not sure it would make any difference to the meta. Because big daemon primarch models die so easily on the tabletop these days. And they will die even faster when the new Tau comes out. Yay to our centerpiece model getting deleted by two shots from a railgun.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 00:20:02


    Post by: beast_gts


     Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    That was a longggg time ago, wonder why you sit on it for this long?


    Well, the updated Castellan Crowe model was already done like, what, 5-6 years before it's reveal? As confirmed by the guy who painted it. So GW sits on some things for a good while for various reasons.


    "About two years" is what they (infernalbrush) said.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 00:20:33


    Post by: Gert


    I wouldn't sell it short for a WE or EC Codex. The mortal additions for the AoS marked factions have been brilliant IMO and the Death Guard range has been excellent as well. Remember a lot of stuff will just be Khorne/Slaanesh versions of basic CSM units with hopefully very little porting (cos porting is boring).
    I think we'd see something quite expansive along the lines of:
    Spoiler:

    WE - Red Butchers (terminator variant), new Zerker models (duh), extra angery Cultists, a Priest HQ, WE Chaos Lord variant ala Lord of Contagion/Exalted Sorcerer, a Daemon Engine, some form of Banner Bearer Elite maybe, Angron.
    EC - Corrupted Phoenix Guard/Noise Terminators (terminator variant), new Noise Marines, Slaangor/fancy Cultists, EC Chaos Lord variant, duelist HQ/Elite choice, weird mutant beast thing, an Apothecary equivilant to harken to Fabius Biles influence on the Legion, Fulgrim, new Lucius.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 00:23:42


    Post by: Eldenfirefly


     Gert wrote:
    I wouldn't sell it short for a WE or EC Codex. The mortal additions for the AoS marked factions have been brilliant IMO and the Death Guard range has been excellent as well. Remember a lot of stuff will just be Khorne/Slaanesh versions of basic CSM units with hopefully very little porting (cos porting is boring).


    I wouldn't either. They can do so much for CSM because the sculpts can always be amazing. But if they are pressed for time and cannot do so because there are so many other codex also waiting to be released. Then like I said, they can make do with a more limited release of new kits and then go from there.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 00:44:56


    Post by: Sersi


    Eldenfirefly wrote:
    Well, my view is that if GW can release Tsons as a book of its own with such a small unit range, then they can very do that with either Emperor's children or World Eaters. It all depends on their whim and fancy really.


    Emperor's Children can be done too. At a bare minimum they just need to have a new Noise Marine kit. To be honest, I don't think Noise terminators have been a big part of what defines Emperor's Children. Its mainly just the noise marines. Maybe release a new Emperor's Children Character kit and we are done. It doesn't even have to be Fulgrim.


    The Sonic Dreadnought is more important for Emperors Children, Sonic Terminators were only in 3.5 and a Apocalypse data sheet. At least the Dreadnought is still legends.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 01:01:05


    Post by: Marshal Loss


     Sersi wrote:
    Eldenfirefly wrote:
    Well, my view is that if GW can release Tsons as a book of its own with such a small unit range, then they can very do that with either Emperor's children or World Eaters. It all depends on their whim and fancy really.


    Emperor's Children can be done too. At a bare minimum they just need to have a new Noise Marine kit. To be honest, I don't think Noise terminators have been a big part of what defines Emperor's Children. Its mainly just the noise marines. Maybe release a new Emperor's Children Character kit and we are done. It doesn't even have to be Fulgrim.


    The Sonic Dreadnought is more important for Emperors Children, Sonic Terminators were only in 3.5 and a Apocalypse data sheet. At least the Dreadnought is still legends.


    That's incorrect; Sonic Terminators predate 3.5. Noise Marine Terminators existed both in the 3rd edition IA: EC and also as an optional upgrade for Chaos Terminators in the 2nd edition Codex: CSM.

    Each of the cult legions should receive a power armoured and terminator-armoured troops choice; EC are no different.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 01:08:28


    Post by: nathan2004


    Can we just get Zerkers riding Juggers please if we are wishlisting lol. But seriously got them in fantasy, why not 40k? Are bloodletters the only ones that can tame them?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 01:35:31


    Post by: Semper


     Marshal Loss wrote:
    By far the most bizarre rumour yet:


    Ok here is a weird one...

    Greater possessed are supposedly not in the codex

    Regular possessed
    S5 t5 w3 5a

    So either the greater possessed sculpts are going to be used as normal possessed

    Either these playtester ruleset he has is something special

    Or maybe hes trying to blurr the line because of all the attention this is getting. My info was on Valrak and spikey bits, so weve gobe full on mainstream.


    Was there not a rumour of a cultist possessed mutant model in a previous leak? Could this be the confusion over new statline?

    Not an explanation for the missing GP though - perhaps they're a unit upgrade now or something or maybe leaker just missed them. *shrugs*


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 01:56:13


    Post by: spiralingcadaver


     Gert wrote:
    Seems perfectly coherent to me but sure.
    Yeah, okay, that's fair and I appreciate the genuine response to my quip.

    I mean, there was that time when GW was really into DLC and would make horrible little "codexes" that consisted of a tiny portion of a faction split into its own book, like a couple entries. And there are any number of chapter approved books or similar pieces in which extremely little is useable for a given faction, but I don't think you're asking about anthology rulebooks. No, I can't think of a time in which a portion of a codex was transferred wholesale to another standard codex and the original one could only take exactly those entries in the new one.

    I would say that the closest thing is the current inquisition mechanics which work just terribly with allies or whatever they're called now and de facto means that for instance a sisters of battle or grey knight army can take exactly one model from a codex at a time without breaking faction bonuses, unless there's been some new mechanic that allows this now.

    IDK, GW has done a lot of scummy things with how it's broken up armies or eliminated options only to bring them back in another form elsewhere, and I don't make a huge distinction between "this was in your book, but now it's in another thing that you need to buy, and that thing also has rules for new things for you to buy" and the same thing but preventing you from buying other things in that anthology, vs. the same thing but preventing you from buying other things in that codex. To me, they're still splitting up books so you can pay more for them.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 02:04:19


    Post by: cuda1179


     nathan2004 wrote:
    Can we just get Zerkers riding Juggers please if we are wishlisting lol. But seriously got them in fantasy, why not 40k? Are bloodletters the only ones that can tame them?


    I second this. I have the old brick, lump of metal one from early 3rd edition that I'd like to field again. It's an iconic Khorne unit that has roots in the history of 40k, and we all know that GW is all about nostalgia these days.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 02:12:21


    Post by: Eldenfirefly


     cuda1179 wrote:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Can we just get Zerkers riding Juggers please if we are wishlisting lol. But seriously got them in fantasy, why not 40k? Are bloodletters the only ones that can tame them?


    I second this. I have the old brick, lump of metal one from early 3rd edition that I'd like to field again. It's an iconic Khorne unit that has roots in the history of 40k, and we all know that GW is all about nostalgia these days.



    I third this. I use the blood crusher plastic models and swop out the blood letters for chaos space marine models instead.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 02:52:22


    Post by: The Red Hobbit


    I was just hoping we can include Bloodletters & Crushers as part of a WE detachment so I can run mine side by side without CP penalty.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 02:57:42


    Post by: ArcaneHorror


    I really hope that these are fake. I love the narrative ideas of how certain Cult Marines could fit in to the philosophies of the other Legions, and this would ruin that. Also, only letting core units take marks? Again, more fun stripped out.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 05:19:26


    Post by: EviscerationPlague


     Gert wrote:
     spiralingcadaver wrote:
    Ok my turn. Write the question again and actually write it coherently this time if no one got it.

    Seems perfectly coherent to me but sure.

    When has GW ever written a Codex (A), removed a unit/units and placed them into a separate Codex (B), and indicated that said unit/units that are now in Codex B can still be used in a list taken from Codex A but not a single other unit from Codex B, forcing you to buy Codex B for potentially a single unit.
    For example, removing Plague Marines from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, placing them into Codex: Death Guard, and saying CSM can still take Plague Marines but not any other unit from DG and you have to buy Codex: DG to use Plague Marines.
    When has this ever happened?

    If this seems like a very confusing and stupid question, that's because it is. It is the situation that Kid_Kyoto said they believed was something GW would do and I'm a little bit tired of people just making up BS to be mad about.

    Didn't this basically happen via telling Death Guard and Thousand Sons players they can still use their Obliterators or Warp Talons or Chosen and all that crap, and all they have to do is take a different detachment from thr CSM Codex and give them the correct mark?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 06:00:13


    Post by: Sersi


     Marshal Loss wrote:
     Sersi wrote:
    Eldenfirefly wrote:
    Well, my view is that if GW can release Tsons as a book of its own with such a small unit range, then they can very do that with either Emperor's children or World Eaters. It all depends on their whim and fancy really.


    Emperor's Children can be done too. At a bare minimum they just need to have a new Noise Marine kit. To be honest, I don't think Noise terminators have been a big part of what defines Emperor's Children. Its mainly just the noise marines. Maybe release a new Emperor's Children Character kit and we are done. It doesn't even have to be Fulgrim.


    The Sonic Dreadnought is more important for Emperors Children, Sonic Terminators were only in 3.5 and a Apocalypse data sheet. At least the Dreadnought is still legends.


    That's incorrect; Sonic Terminators predate 3.5. Noise Marine Terminators existed both in the 3rd edition IA: EC and also as an optional upgrade for Chaos Terminators in the 2nd edition Codex: CSM.

    Each of the cult legions should receive a power armoured and terminator-armoured troops choice; EC are no different.


    Well...they say the memory goes with age, and it's been a very long time since I've pulled out the second edition codex. For the record though I'd prefer Noise Marines, Noise Terminators, and Sonic Dreadnought.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 06:49:40


    Post by: drbored


    Using GW's past behavior to justify or refute the potential of GW's future behavior is asinine and pedantic.

    GW is an ethereal being that does not obey the laws of business strategy or customer goodwill. They do what they will and speak models into being that simultaneously are brand new and also ten years old. When they write rules, they consult with the Galactic Council, whose minds only perceive vague half-truths and nothing else. Every 6 months they must sacrifice 100 thesaurus, 4 lawyers, and 22 pounds of raw gold to restructure the entire company, making past trends obsolete and new trends law, but only for the next 6 months.

    Either way, these rumors are starting to get more and more sus. Greater Possessed are massive character models.

    I'm also still surprised we have so much info about all the legions except for Alpha Legion.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 06:54:36


    Post by: JWBS


    Yes, the solstice sacrifice, twice a year every year. Much fertility and market growth.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 06:56:39


    Post by: drbored


    JWBS wrote:
    Yes, the solstice sacrifice, twice a year every year. Much fertility and market growth.


    Seems to be working for them so far, so I wouldn't blame them for continuing.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 07:15:13


    Post by: tneva82


    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    For all the wailing about the loadout for Termies- When I bought my box it came with enough Lightning Claws that each of mine could have 2 of them. Granted I only had 1 heavy weapon (a hvy flamer) but that's what I wanted anyway. How did I do this? I bought the Cataphract box. As far as CSM go there are only Terminators so the various armor types are style choices and nothing else. Also, since Catapharact armor was around during the 30K wars it's thematic to have some in your army if you play with that back story.


    Yeah. You bought 2nd box. Which means in GW's current design parameters odds are very, very, very good you won't be able to field 5 terminators with all lightning claws as that won't be option as it's not in the box

    Ask DG how fun it was when their loadouts were invalidated because box didn't come enough without buying more boxes.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    H.B.M.C. - No, I do not think that the complaints are unfounded. In fact I stated the exact same complaint in a thread when the chosen were previewed. I'm merely pointing out that there are options out there and GW should consider that there are other Terminator Box sets out there that are applicable to CSM. This is in contrast to how many box sets there are of Plague Marine Terminators (1). Do I believe that they did consider that? No, but they should have.


    Options to get more isn't exactly much help if GW prevents the loadouts...

    In case you have been living under the rock during 9th ed GW has been moving more and more what's in box is what's legal. Not every unit but a lot. Box has only 2 pairs of lightning claws for 5 models? 2 models can field pair of lightning claws. Not 3. Not 4. Def not 5.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 09:44:06


    Post by: Dysartes


     nathan2004 wrote:
    Can we just get Zerkers riding Juggers please if we are wishlisting lol. But seriously got them in fantasy, why not 40k? Are bloodletters the only ones that can tame them?

    I suspect the problem isn't that Bloodletters are the only ones that can tame them, but getting the Berserkers to hold fire on the Kill! Maim! Burn! long enough to find/capture/tame (or earn the respect of, as I don't know how sentient a Juggernaut is meant to be) one of these Daemonic steeds...


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 10:56:44


    Post by: Platuan4th


     Dysartes wrote:
     nathan2004 wrote:
    Can we just get Zerkers riding Juggers please if we are wishlisting lol. But seriously got them in fantasy, why not 40k? Are bloodletters the only ones that can tame them?

    I suspect the problem isn't that Bloodletters are the only ones that can tame them, but getting the Berserkers to hold fire on the Kill! Maim! Burn! long enough to find/capture/tame (or earn the respect of, as I don't know how sentient a Juggernaut is meant to be) one of these Daemonic steeds...


    When it comes to mortals, daemonic mounts are granted as gifts, not wild beasts needing to be tamed.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 11:17:33


    Post by: Gert


    IIRC it's not that straightforward, a Champion may receive the gift but that doesn't mean said gift will be instantly loyal or serviceable. Daemonic beasts aren't just going to sit and roll over, a Champion will still have to break them into and bind them to their will. It's not so much taming as beating into submission.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 11:21:59


    Post by: Kid_Kyoto


     Gert wrote:

    Seems perfectly coherent to me but sure.

    When has GW ever written a Codex (A), removed a unit/units and placed them into a separate Codex (B), and indicated that said unit/units that are now in Codex B can still be used in a list taken from Codex A but not a single other unit from Codex B, forcing you to buy Codex B for potentially a single unit.
    For example, removing Plague Marines from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, placing them into Codex: Death Guard, and saying CSM can still take Plague Marines but not any other unit from DG and you have to buy Codex: DG to use Plague Marines.
    When has this ever happened?

    If this seems like a very confusing and stupid question, that's because it is. It is the situation that Kid_Kyoto said they believed was something GW would do and I'm a little bit tired of people just making up BS to be mad about.


    My 4th/5th edition Nurgle-themed Chaos army had plague marines, obliterators and daemons. They are now in 3 different books each costing $50.

    My 3rd/4th Daemon Hunters had Inquisitors, Grey Knights and Inquisition Storm Troopers. They are now in 3 different books each costing $50. I think it's 4 books if I include the assassins.

    I have no difficulty imagining Chaos Space Marines being divided into 5 books (4 gods and undivided) each costing $50 to replace a single book.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 11:31:07


    Post by: Platuan4th


     Gert wrote:
    IIRC it's not that straightforward, a Champion may receive the gift but that doesn't mean said gift will be instantly loyal or serviceable. Daemonic beasts aren't just going to sit and roll over, a Champion will still have to break them into and bind them to their will. It's not so much taming as beating into submission.


    Except traditionally, that is exactly what it's been like. Arbaal never needed to break the Hound of Khorne. Archaon having to break Dorghar was even made a big deal because Dorghar isn't gifted, he needs to be stolen and broken as part of the testing for an Everchosen.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 11:45:56


    Post by: Gert


     Kid_Kyoto wrote:

    My 4th/5th edition Nurgle-themed Chaos army had plague marines, obliterators and daemons. They are now in 3 different books each costing $50.

    Couple things I'm noticing from my own research/experience:
    1 - Plague Marines and Obliterators are still in the same book and that book also contains the rules for Plague Bearers. The only thing you don't have is explicit rules for using the army as Death Guard and the wider Daemon roster.
    2 - I may be remembering incorrectly as it has been some time since I played 5th Ed, but having owned and used Daemons in 5th with their 4th Ed Codex, you couldn't take CSM in the army rather you could only ally with them. From what I can tell, the CSM Codex was the same.
    3 - Even without addressing the two above points, you cannot take Obliterators or Daemons in a Death Guard army and there is absolutely nothing from GW that says you can. Your examples don't even fit the hypothetical you created.

    My 3rd/4th Daemon Hunters had Inquisitors, Grey Knights and Inquisition Storm Troopers. They are now in 3 different books each costing $50. I think it's 4 books if I include the assassins.

    Grey Knights are in their own Codex and the rules for Inquisition units are in one of the Octarius books. That's 2.
    And once again, the only limitation on Inquisition units in a Grey Knights army is that you can only take one Inquisitor and one Henchmen unit.

    You posited that GW would remove the Cult units from the CSM Codex then force players to buy the Cult Legion Codexes to use those units in a CSM army and then couldn't come up with a single example of when something like that has ever happened. Fake outrage much?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 11:55:13


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    tneva82 wrote:
    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    For all the wailing about the loadout for Termies- When I bought my box it came with enough Lightning Claws that each of mine could have 2 of them. Granted I only had 1 heavy weapon (a hvy flamer) but that's what I wanted anyway. How did I do this? I bought the Cataphract box. As far as CSM go there are only Terminators so the various armor types are style choices and nothing else. Also, since Catapharact armor was around during the 30K wars it's thematic to have some in your army if you play with that back story.


    Yeah. You bought 2nd box. Which means in GW's current design parameters odds are very, very, very good you won't be able to field 5 terminators with all lightning claws as that won't be option as it's not in the box

    Ask DG how fun it was when their loadouts were invalidated because box didn't come enough without buying more boxes.


    No, I bought 1 box of cataphract terminators and that was it. GW made slightly more money due to the fact that Cataphract are direct order only but that's it. And, I agree that GW seems to be going the way of "only use what's in one box". I was just stating that GW sometimes offers more than one box for each unit (like in this instance) and as such, should look carefully at the options available to the players before restricting them. As to the current box if it has 4 claws then 4 models can use them. (Just be creative in changing a couple arms at the shoulder with some green stuff or such). Then your fifth model can use a chainfist.




    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 12:02:43


    Post by: techsoldaten


    drbored wrote:I'm also still surprised we have so much info about all the legions except for Alpha Legion.


    Alpharius demands tactics stay secret and the Alpha Legion strikes from the shadows. Hydra Dominatus!

    Kid_Kyoto wrote:My 4th/5th edition Nurgle-themed Chaos army had plague marines, obliterators and daemons. They are now in 3 different books each costing $50.

    My 3rd/4th Daemon Hunters had Inquisitors, Grey Knights and Inquisition Storm Troopers. They are now in 3 different books each costing $50. I think it's 4 books if I include the assassins.

    I have no difficulty imagining Chaos Space Marines being divided into 5 books (4 gods and undivided) each costing $50 to replace a single book.


    We're to the point CSM have a book, each of the Cult Legions (minus ECs) have a book, Daemons have a book, Chaos Knights have a book, and, if rumors are to be believed, Renegade Guard could get their own book this year.

    I have the Death Guard and Thousand Sons Codexes, I will be buying any new Codexes that are released this year. At the same time, the value I expect to get out of each individually is low.

    Imagine if all these books were to be released over the next 12 months and GW announced 10th edition in June 2023. You'd have less than 12 months playing time with the complete collection using the edition they were made for.

    Such is the fate of all things Chaos.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 12:04:39


    Post by: kodos


     Gert wrote:
    I may be remembering incorrectly as it has been some time since I played 5th Ed, but having owned and used Daemons in 5th with their 4th Ed Codex, you couldn't take CSM in the army rather you could only ally with them. From what I can tell, the CSM Codex was the same.?

    there was no dedicated Daemon Codex until late 5th Edition (you could not play a pure Daemon Army until that) and CSM had generic Daemons in their 5th Edi Codex so you could always use them there


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 12:12:58


    Post by: Gert


    Chaos Daemons was May 2008 and 4th Ed ended in July 2008. 4th Ed CSM was released 7 months prior to Daemons in September 2007.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/27 12:31:00


    Post by: blood reaper


    CSM couldn't ally with Daemons and there was no system for it until 6th. The books also exercised much of any reference to either faction (there is almost no mention of specific Daemons in the 4th ed CSM book, and there are I think *two* references to Chaos Space Marines in the Chaos Daemons book).

    Daemons were in the CSM book, but only in the form of generic 'Greater' and 'Lesser' Daemons.

    The CSM book remains one of the worst books every released. Incredibly bland.

    Incidentally, talk of dedicated books for Death Guard and Thousand Sons began around the time the 4th ed CSM book came out. I recall the White Dwarf released around the same time discussing it. Obviously it didn't happen till you know, much later on, but it's clear the concept for divvying up Chaos into multiple sub-factions.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 02:05:07


    Post by: drbored


     blood reaper wrote:
    CSM couldn't ally with Daemons and there was no system for it until 6th. The books also exercised much of any reference to either faction (there is almost no mention of specific Daemons in the 4th ed CSM book, and there are I think *two* references to Chaos Space Marines in the Chaos Daemons book).

    Daemons were in the CSM book, but only in the form of generic 'Greater' and 'Lesser' Daemons.

    The CSM book remains one of the worst books every released. Incredibly bland.

    Incidentally, talk of dedicated books for Death Guard and Thousand Sons began around the time the 4th ed CSM book came out. I recall the White Dwarf released around the same time discussing it. Obviously it didn't happen till you know, much later on, but it's clear the concept for divvying up Chaos into multiple sub-factions.


    Yeah, then the whole idea of supplements came out in 6th edition iirc? We saw Iyanden and Khorne Daemonkin, and of course a million Space Marine chapters each get their own supplement.

    Like HBMC said, GW is consistently inconsistent. They have made separate Space Wolves books for decades only to demote them to Supplement standard while keeping Death Guard and Thousand Sons separate.

    IMO, I'd rather Chaos Marines got that sort of treatment. Here's the core list of all the stuff that heretics and chaos marine renegades can take in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and then here's 5 supplements: EC, DG, WE, TS, and Red Corsairs/Renegades to expand those options. Then, just like how Space Marines have it, you no longer have to worry about updating 20 datasheets every time you want to print a book, you keep all that core stuff in, with a few caveats (TS cannot take Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle units, etc) and bang, you've got it.

    I bet, though, that much like the Space Marines that got some supplements in 8th and some in 9th, they're likely waiting on Chaos Marines to have all of the various options done (WE and EC) before shaking the boat too much. I'm reminded of a rumor (iirc from Valrak) that suggested that there was a 25 year plan to release all the Primarchs in plastic, and that the timer for that began when Magnus came out. I think from that same rumor came the idea that GW is working on redoing everything with a Rhino chassis, but that could have been in regards to moving rhino-chassis things in 30k to plastic. Either way, there's a lot that needs to be done to get Chaos Marines to be cohesive in design philosophy, model scale, and options, and 'complete' at least to the measure of having EC and WE have their Codexes, primarchs, and specialized options. It's a long road ahead.

    Getting those updated Possessed and Bikers that were rumored would be a step in the right direction at least...


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 02:20:43


    Post by: EviscerationPlague


    CSM have proven they can work with one codex via the 7th Edition book + the supplement. It just needs correct internal balance.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 02:32:59


    Post by: Eldenfirefly


    I like what they have done with Tsons and DG so far. I started and expanded armies of both Tsons and DG in 9th edition and had fun playing both. They feel different from the CSM armies (of which I have lots because CSM was my first love).

    EC, WE, Tsons and DG all have enough lore to support having their own books. The key thing is to diversify their units such that they have their own armies. DG is the most extreme example of this. There are very few DG units that rely on CSM existing rooster. Most DG army lists these days use exclusively the new DG sculpts and the new DG units.

    Tsons went this direction as well with the new rubric and Occult sculpts once they made good rules for these core units.

    And both have a very distinct way of playing and style that set them apart from "CSM army variation 7".

    If they can do this with EC and WE, it would be great. The only issue is that if they do this, I am not sure if what is left in the core CSM codex is interesting enough. It feels like it should be, but we will have to see.

    I mean, there are still distinctly CSM codex units. Possessed feels like World bearers, Obliterators for Iron warriors. Black legion has Abaddon.

    The challenge now is whether they have enough to form a new WE or EC codex. Not just in terms of lore (because I am sure there are tons of EC and WE lore). But in terms of actual sculpts and new units. I mean, if you are going to make WE an entire codex by itself, you really need to have some dedicated WE sculpts and units. It shouldn't be just a case of "I repaint my CSM army red and call it a day".


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 05:04:13


    Post by: drbored


    Eldenfirefly wrote:
    I like what they have done with Tsons and DG so far. I started and expanded armies of both Tsons and DG in 9th edition and had fun playing both. They feel different from the CSM armies (of which I have lots because CSM was my first love).

    EC, WE, Tsons and DG all have enough lore to support having their own books. The key thing is to diversify their units such that they have their own armies. DG is the most extreme example of this. There are very few DG units that rely on CSM existing rooster. Most DG army lists these days use exclusively the new DG sculpts and the new DG units.

    Tsons went this direction as well with the new rubric and Occult sculpts once they made good rules for these core units.

    And both have a very distinct way of playing and style that set them apart from "CSM army variation 7".

    If they can do this with EC and WE, it would be great. The only issue is that if they do this, I am not sure if what is left in the core CSM codex is interesting enough. It feels like it should be, but we will have to see.

    I mean, there are still distinctly CSM codex units. Possessed feels like World bearers, Obliterators for Iron warriors. Black legion has Abaddon.

    The challenge now is whether they have enough to form a new WE or EC codex. Not just in terms of lore (because I am sure there are tons of EC and WE lore). But in terms of actual sculpts and new units. I mean, if you are going to make WE an entire codex by itself, you really need to have some dedicated WE sculpts and units. It shouldn't be just a case of "I repaint my CSM army red and call it a day".


    If GW can make 20 unique primaris captains and primaris lts, they can add a bit of variety to make World Eaters and Emperor's Children feel different.

    In many cases, it's just a matter of letting you take a couple daemon engines, adding in the core unit (Berzerkers/Noise Marines) and giving us a terminator-equivalent sculpt and a few key characters (Kharn/Lucius, etc) on top of the Primarch (Angron/Fulgrim). Everything else is a cherry on top. I'm not saying that this is easy to do, and it's a lot of chaos to have, but World Eaters and Emperor's Children are far more visually distinct than Dark Angels and Blood Angels, at least.

    Also, regular Chaos Marines will always have a place. People love Black Legion, renegade chapters, and the other 4 undivided chapters.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 06:35:19


    Post by: kodos


    Gert wrote:Chaos Daemons was May 2008 and 4th Ed ended in July 2008. 4th Ed CSM was released 7 months prior to Daemons in September 2007.

    so I was one edition behind, now I feel old
    drbored wrote:Yeah, then the whole idea of supplements came out in 6th edition iirc? We saw Iyanden and Khorne Daemonkin, and of course a million Space Marine chapters each get their own supplement.

    3rd, the idea of supplements came out in 3rd edition
    Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Craftworld Eldar and Catachans were Supplements


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 10:10:43


    Post by: Jack Flask


     kodos wrote:
    drbored wrote:Yeah, then the whole idea of supplements came out in 6th edition iirc? We saw Iyanden and Khorne Daemonkin, and of course a million Space Marine chapters each get their own supplement.

    3rd, the idea of supplements came out in 3rd edition
    Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Craftworld Eldar and Catachans were Supplements


    Yeah I remember starting in 4th Edition with the 3E Blood Angels Supplement and 4E SM 'dex. I've since gone back and collected every legal 4E book and I honestly miss the original supplement style. Only the unique profiles were printed in the book and every other entry either said "Refer to Codex Space Marines" or "Refer to Codex Space Marines and make the following changes:". The new SM supplements are very close to that style thankfully though I could do without the weird "If this model is from the DA chapter it can take..." sprinkled throughout the base codex.

    Of course it also helped that at the time codexes were $30 and supplements $15 (iirc that's how much I paid at a FLGS). So buying two books to play one army didn't really "feel bad".


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 16:58:04


    Post by: Dudeface


    More stuff:

    Alpha legion
    •-1 to hit 12" away, if wounds are 10+ then it's 18"
    •Can charge and perform actions if they fell back
    •Wanton massacre (super doctrine):Rapid fire, assault, pistol if within half range +1 ap

    Emperor's children
    •Ignore any/all modifiers to ws / bs
    •Any attack on a 6 to wound +1ap
    •wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on a 6 gives additional hit, combine this with the slaughter bonus and you'd get 2 additional hits on 6

    Red corsairs
    •Charge if they advanced
    •Models count as 2 for obsec
    Models with 10+ wounds count as 5
    •wanton destruction (super doctrine): Heav, rapid, grenade get +1ap

    Creations of bile
    •+1 str/move
    •Fight after death in melee
    •wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on 6 auto wound

    Random renegade traits
    •+4" to range other than grenade and relic
    •After killing a unit, the unit is then considered to be in destruction, massacre and slaughter for the rest of the game


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 17:16:00


    Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


    Dudeface wrote:
    More stuff:

    Alpha legion
    •-1 to hit 12" away, if wounds are 10+ then it's 18"
    •Can charge and perform actions if they fell back
    •Wanton massacre (super doctrine):Rapid fire, assault, pistol if within half range +1 ap

    Emperor's children
    •Ignore any/all modifiers to ws / bs
    •Any attack on a 6 to wound +1ap
    •wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on a 6 gives additional hit, combine this with the slaughter bonus and you'd get 2 additional hits on 6

    Red corsairs
    •Charge if they advanced
    •Models count as 2 for obsec
    Models with 10+ wounds count as 5
    •wanton destruction (super doctrine): Heav, rapid, grenade get +1ap

    Creations of bile
    •+1 str/move
    •Fight after death in melee
    •wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on 6 auto wound

    Random renegade traits
    •+4" to range other than grenade and relic
    •After killing a unit, the unit is then considered to be in destruction, massacre and slaughter for the rest of the game


    Thanks !

    Not sure how I feel about EC losing fight first but unmodifiable WS/BS sound really good, especially with Noise Marines since they'll pretty much always be advancing. And telsa on assaults also looks really good (especially with a big bomb of Warp talons).


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 19:46:14


    Post by: Dudeface


    Flood gates opening.

    More stuff from clockworkchris at B&C:

    Chosen can choose and additional trait, it has now been confirmed that this trait is one of the traits from the build a warband ruleset. I posted earlier today 2 of those traits.

    For core and characters, you can purchase a gift of the gods
    Khorne: +1S on the charge

    I am willing to guess what the others will be.

    Unmarked units gain some support from stratagems & renegade traits

    Venomcrawler
    •is now FA
    •is a bit faster (my guess 12" instead of 10")
    •now gives +1 to psychic tests
    •claws and mechatentrites are now just 1 weapon (again my guess this means the claw profile may be getting +2a)
    •ws3 bs3

    No changes to disco lord

    We are getting "daemon gifts", these are buff you can buy for CORE or CHARACTERS.

    Khorne +1s to charges
    Tzeentch ignore damage on first failed save
    Slaanesh fight first in the fight phase
    Nurgle -1 damage

    Obliterators
    •have essentially big guns never tire(shoot into engagement range with -1 to hit)
    •ignore modifier for heavy weapons
    •armed with powerfists without -1 to hit
    •Has 3 shooting profiles
    Heavy 9+d6 s5 ap1 d1
    Heavy 3+d3 s7 ap2 d2
    Heavy d3 s9 ap3 d4




    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 20:15:25


    Post by: EviscerationPlague


    Well, at least Obliterators have less Randumb for their shooting. That's nice.

    I don't like EC ignoring ALL modifiers to hit. I think any first modifier is pretty reasonable.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Also don't think falling back and charging is very Alpha Legion-ish


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 20:35:56


    Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


    Damn ! Oblits are looking good ! Too bad you still can't buy them on their own

    I'm also surprised the Disco lord wasn't nerfed since it one of our high performing unit. Point hikes incoming I guess


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 20:51:07


    Post by: Not Online!!!


    Hmm, oblits not being randumb and actually back to being able to do anything is a nice touch.

    I am more curious about the cultists /traitor guard and the HQ / flag bearer for those.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 22:01:45


    Post by: Gert


    Sorry, what? The super doctrines are different for each Legion trait? I don't buy that.
    Also, those Daemonic Gifts seem hella good and unless there are limitations like DW KT Specialisms or Drukhari Favoured Retinues, they're going to be waaay too good not to take. Very suspicious IMO.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 22:30:42


    Post by: Dudeface


     Gert wrote:
    Sorry, what? The super doctrines are different for each Legion trait? I don't buy that.
    Also, those Daemonic Gifts seem hella good and unless there are limitations like DW KT Specialisms or Drukhari Favoured Retinues, they're going to be waaay too good not to take. Very suspicious IMO.


    I mean space wolves super doctrine is different to the Blood angels one, so seems expected to me?

    As you know daemonic upgrades historically cost a wide range of points, I would hope these aren't free.

    These all seem a bit sus, but we just had 3 weeks of eldar rumours with lots of people decrying them every page only for them to pan out, it's a good time to be reading rumours!


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 22:45:13


    Post by: Gert


    Is super doctrine for Marines not just Combat Doctrines? The only different between the basic Codex variant and the DW variant is choosing which one I want in a given turn, not massive differences based on subfactions.
    The big about the Gifts was more to focus on the fact that similar instances are a case of one each/detachment that are still paid upgrades i.e. you can have one Trueborn unit or one type of Kill Team Specialism for like +1 Power/X points.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 22:48:19


    Post by: Rihgu


    Super Doctrine is the "when in X doctrine, gain Y bonus" every chapter has.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 23:07:44


    Post by: drbored


    Rihgu wrote:
    Super Doctrine is the "when in X doctrine, gain Y bonus" every chapter has.


    Yeah, this is already established.

    Also, the concern about EC losing their 'fight first' bonus seems to be... reversed if they have Mark of Slaanesh...?

    I'm more curious about "tzeentch ignore damage on first failed save" does that mean if you only make one save against a weapon, say a lascannon, and you fail it, do you just ignore all the damage from that? Need a lot more clarification on that.

    Oblits look decent. Getting d3 attacks at the s9 level is going to... hurt if there are no stratagems or other abilities to re-roll that. I can imagine a squad of 3 oblits getting 3-4 attacks out of that and just... not doing anything. But, such is the way with high strength weapons.

    Alpha Legion is also a bit odd. -1 to hit them from range, but then when they do get into close range (and get the super doctrine) they get better AP. Interesting.

    EC ignoring any/all modifiers to WS and BS means that it can't be improved either, and doesn't that go against what was said earlier about EC getting better to-hit on thunder hammers? Some of these are starting to contradict each other, which is making me more and more sus. The internal balance of it all is swinging wide, as well. I guess we'll see what it all boils down to. We didn't even get a tease of Chaos stuff in the LVO reveals, but hopefully we'll see something soon...


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/28 23:10:47


    Post by: Mothman


    Emperors children changes are nice, im fine with fight first being a paid for bonus. Moves them more towards perfection focused and those who are blessed get the daemonic speed. Their super doctrine kicking in in 3rd turn is cute and also fits them likely loosing all control.

    EC oblits will be scary, firing full BS in combat, especially if "honour the prince" is still around to drop, shoot and charge.

    Im hoping that the rumoured cultist banner allows cultist squads to replenish, if so could see core of my army being 30-40 cultists, noise marines, thunderhammer chosen with lord in drop pod.

    I also hope we see either some hq options go to elites or get a "3 options 1 slot" or "lord lets these be none force org" because chaos often feels very limited to lord/sorc/dark apostle or disco lord as others while great struggle for the slot space.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/29 02:00:08


    Post by: l0k1


    I'm suspicious of these rumors. As an Alpha Legion player, I'm also a little let down by their trait. Seems a bit out of sorts for them.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/29 03:19:55


    Post by: DarkStarSabre


    EviscerationPlague wrote:
    CSM have proven they can work with one codex via the 7th Edition book + the supplement. It just needs correct internal balance.


    *Cough*

    You mean the outdated 6th ed Codex. The Traitor Legions supplement that showed up about 5 months before the entire ruleset was overhauled. And the FW Imperial Armour book because no CSM army was running without that during 6th and 7th edition 40k.

    Also, the 6th ed Codex was awful. And we basically got lumped with it and its horrific imbalanced self for the majority of 2 editions. Traitor Legions was literally a band aid that did a LOT of heavy lifting to fix it and we got that for a grand total of about 5 months.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/29 07:44:48


    Post by: EviscerationPlague


     DarkStarSabre wrote:
    EviscerationPlague wrote:
    CSM have proven they can work with one codex via the 7th Edition book + the supplement. It just needs correct internal balance.


    *Cough*

    You mean the outdated 6th ed Codex. The Traitor Legions supplement that showed up about 5 months before the entire ruleset was overhauled. And the FW Imperial Armour book because no CSM army was running without that during 6th and 7th edition 40k.

    Also, the 6th ed Codex was awful. And we basically got lumped with it and its horrific imbalanced self for the majority of 2 editions. Traitor Legions was literally a band aid that did a LOT of heavy lifting to fix it and we got that for a grand total of about 5 months.

    I meant 6th edition sorry, but the point still stands it CAN work. The little amount of time that people got use out of the Traitor Legion supplement is disgusting.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/29 08:13:21


    Post by: DarkStarSabre


    EviscerationPlague wrote:
     DarkStarSabre wrote:
    EviscerationPlague wrote:
    CSM have proven they can work with one codex via the 7th Edition book + the supplement. It just needs correct internal balance.


    *Cough*

    You mean the outdated 6th ed Codex. The Traitor Legions supplement that showed up about 5 months before the entire ruleset was overhauled. And the FW Imperial Armour book because no CSM army was running without that during 6th and 7th edition 40k.

    Also, the 6th ed Codex was awful. And we basically got lumped with it and its horrific imbalanced self for the majority of 2 editions. Traitor Legions was literally a band aid that did a LOT of heavy lifting to fix it and we got that for a grand total of about 5 months.

    I meant 6th edition sorry, but the point still stands it CAN work. The little amount of time that people got use out of the Traitor Legion supplement is disgusting.


    It really didn't. I just showed that up. The Codex was awful. The supplements did all the work. Up until the supplements CSM were dead in the water for the most part unless you spammed specific builds.

    And if your army becomes -Spam X or Lose- the book is a dud. I was one of the higher ranking Death Guard players at the time in the ITC rankings. And 6th burned me out. The book was just not that well done. Everything that came after it, with the exception of Orks, just ramped up in terms of power. Sorry, that book was weak. It was uninspired and lead to some rather boring monobuilds.

    And it wasn't just 'a single Codex' - Eldar pulled off a single Codex in that edition.CSM literally was a dud until IA vol. 13 and then the Traitor Legions supplement.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/29 08:44:36


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     DarkStarSabre wrote:
    Spoiler:
    EviscerationPlague wrote:
     DarkStarSabre wrote:
    EviscerationPlague wrote:
    CSM have proven they can work with one codex via the 7th Edition book + the supplement. It just needs correct internal balance.


    *Cough*

    You mean the outdated 6th ed Codex. The Traitor Legions supplement that showed up about 5 months before the entire ruleset was overhauled. And the FW Imperial Armour book because no CSM army was running without that during 6th and 7th edition 40k.

    Also, the 6th ed Codex was awful. And we basically got lumped with it and its horrific imbalanced self for the majority of 2 editions. Traitor Legions was literally a band aid that did a LOT of heavy lifting to fix it and we got that for a grand total of about 5 months.

    I meant 6th edition sorry, but the point still stands it CAN work. The little amount of time that people got use out of the Traitor Legion supplement is disgusting.


    It really didn't. I just showed that up. The Codex was awful. The supplements did all the work. Up until the supplements CSM were dead in the water for the most part unless you spammed specific builds.

    And if your army becomes -Spam X or Lose- the book is a dud. I was one of the higher ranking Death Guard players at the time in the ITC rankings. And 6th burned me out. The book was just not that well done. Everything that came after it, with the exception of Orks, just ramped up in terms of power. Sorry, that book was weak. It was uninspired and lead to some rather boring monobuilds.

    And it wasn't just 'a single Codex' - Eldar pulled off a single Codex in that edition.CSM literally was a dud until IA vol. 13 and then the Traitor Legions supplement.

    I'll second that. IA 13 was the only thing that kept me playing through 7th. Traitor Legions was great as well, but short lived. The 6th/7th edition CSM codex was barely any better than the 4th edition mess, and the 8th edition codex wasn't much of an improvement over it. We've had 3 lackluster codexes in a row. Here's hoping this one finally breaks that cycle.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/29 09:11:16


    Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


    drbored wrote:


    Oblits look decent. Getting d3 attacks at the s9 level is going to... hurt if there are no stratagems or other abilities to re-roll that. I can imagine a squad of 3 oblits getting 3-4 attacks out of that and just... not doing anything. But, such is the way with high strength weapons.



    Yeah, maybe the new rampant techno virus will help that for IW ? I'm more impressed by the Heavy 9+d6 s5 ap1 d1. That's a lot of shots with AP1 ! And during the first doctrine (I wish they chose other names then just: "synonyms of kill") that's a minimum of 30 st5 ap1 dmg1 shots with exploding 6s ! If you can still give them +1str that's wounding a blob of Skitarii rangers on 2s !


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/29 09:28:18


    Post by: Dysartes


    drbored wrote:
    EC ignoring any/all modifiers to WS and BS means that it can't be improved either, and doesn't that go against what was said earlier about EC getting better to-hit on thunder hammers?

    Not necessarily - don't Thunder Hammers have the "-1 to hit with attacks with this weapon" rule? If so, and EC get to ignore that, then they'd be better with thunder hammers.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/29 09:57:28


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     l0k1 wrote:
    As an Alpha Legion player, I'm also a little let down by their trait.
    Didn't you know? Alpha Legion are all about subterfuge, infiltration, sabotage and close ranged bloody massacres.



     DarkStarSabre wrote:
    The Traitor Legions supplement that showed up about 5 months before the entire ruleset was overhauled.
    #Neva4Get

    Spoiler:









    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/29 23:52:02


    Post by: l0k1


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     l0k1 wrote:
    As an Alpha Legion player, I'm also a little let down by their trait.
    Didn't you know? Alpha Legion are all about subterfuge, infiltration, sabotage and close ranged bloody massacres.



    Alpha Legion at 12-18 inches, World Eaters at 6-12



    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/29 23:59:05


    Post by: Laughing Man


     l0k1 wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     l0k1 wrote:
    As an Alpha Legion player, I'm also a little let down by their trait.
    Didn't you know? Alpha Legion are all about subterfuge, infiltration, sabotage and close ranged bloody massacres.



    Alpha Legion at 12-18 inches, World Eaters at 6-12


    I'd say World Eaters shorter than that, steroids are not great for certain things.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 00:20:27


    Post by: Marshal Loss


     Dysartes wrote:
    drbored wrote:
    EC ignoring any/all modifiers to WS and BS means that it can't be improved either, and doesn't that go against what was said earlier about EC getting better to-hit on thunder hammers?

    Not necessarily - don't Thunder Hammers have the "-1 to hit with attacks with this weapon" rule? If so, and EC get to ignore that, then they'd be better with thunder hammers.


    Also worth being skeptical of the precise wording being shown in these rumours. The trait could simply be e.g. "ignore any and all negative modifiers" and the leaker/guy communicating with him as just chosen to write it a certain way. The latter chap is no linguist.

    If the rule is just "ignore all negative modifiers", then EC having Chosen that hit on 2s with thunder hammers still lines up (as the rumoured Slaanesh icon gives +1 to hit in melee).

    Anyway, the aforementioned guy claiming to be communicating with the leaker did a new summary with all the information collected in one place today on B&C. Don't think there's anything new but it's nice to have it all in one place:

    Spoiler:

    CSM doctrine:

    Similar to SM Doctrine, except exploding 6s (unmodified hits) instead of +1AP. Still 3 levels that affefct different weapons (the weapons listed below are not confirmed by my sources, but the ones in the legion traits are confirmed by my sources as well as the names, so what I am about to list may be subject to change)
    Destruction ''Doctrine'': Heavy/grenade
    Massacre ''Doctrine'': Rapid fire/assault
    Slaughter ''Doctrine'': pistol/melee

    Marks:

    Can only be applied to CORE & CHARACTERS

    Icons: (purchaseable upgrade)

    vengeance +1 CA
    wrath +1ap melee
    flame +1ap shooting
    excess +1 to hit melee
    despair 6s to hit = autowound

    ''Daemonic Gifts'': (purchaseable upgrade)

    Khorne: +1S on the charge
    Nurgle: -1 damage
    Tzeentch: ignore all damage on first missed save
    Slaanesh: fight first in the fight phase





    All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems each (seems to be a lot from F&F but with some tweaks)



    Legion rule:



    NL

    -2LD & -1CA @ 9''
    +1 to advance & +1 to charges
    Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

    WLT

    6" aura that cancels obsec

    Relics

    Jump pack: moving over or charging units causes d3 MW on a 2+

    Stratagems

    Vox scream: cancels AURAS
    Jump pack DS turn 1

    IW

    Ignores cover
    Reduce ap1/2 by 1
    Wanton Destruction: Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

    WLT

    Some way to give +1 damage to certain units



    WB

    Charges/HI = reroll hits
    5+++ vs MW
    Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit) (Super doctrine)



    BL

    ignore CA
    +1 to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
    Wanton Massacre: rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit) (Super doctrine)



    Alpha legion

    -1 to hit 12" away, if wounds are 10+ then it's 18"
    Can charge and perform actions if they fell back
    Wanton massacre (super doctrine):Rapid fire, assault, pistol if within half range +1 ap


    Emperor's children

    Ignore any/all negative modifiers to ws / bs
    Any attack on a 6 to wound +1ap
    wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on a 6 gives additional hit, combine this with the slaughter bonus and you'd get 2 additional hits on 6
    Side note, this matches up with a 4chan leak that said TH chosen could hit on 2s with EC (legion trait+icon of excess)


    Red corsairs

    Charge if they advanced
    Models count as 2 for obsec; Models with 10+ wounds count as 5
    wanton destruction (super doctrine): Heav, rapid, grenade get +1ap


    Creations of bile

    +1 str/move
    Fight after death in melee
    wanton slaughter (super doctrine): Melee hits on 6 auto wound


    ''Build a warband'' renegade traits

    +4" to range other than grenade and relic
    After killing a unit, the unit is then considered to be in destruction, massacre and slaughter for the rest of the game

    WE

    Not in the codex





    Datasheet info:



    Disco lord

    not much change

    Cypher

    In the codex



    Cult units (berzerkers/rubrics/plague marines, only noise marines are stille in the codex because EC wont be getting their own book very soon)

    Are no longuer in the codex
    Act like harlequins in CWE army, or like Scions in Guard (including them is like including fabius bile, it doesnt cancel you legion trait)
    Always Elites
    can benefit from army rules
    Cannot gain a legion trait

    Fallen

    No in the codex

    Chosen

    3w
    Stat wise similar to CSM troops (6'' S4 T4 3+/no invul)
    No news on WS BS or A
    can use TH (unconfirmed)
    Gain gain an additional trait that you can choose, this trait is one of traits from the list of build a warband traits

    Terminators

    Loadout options similar to DG blightlords
    Only thing I was told is that we could no longer have an all LC loadout as a hint.

    Greater possessed

    No in the codex

    Possessed

    S5 T5 3W 5A
    unit of 10 (do not know if this is total or max)
    Personnal guess: either the greater possessed model will be the new stand possessed model, or it will be an upgrade to the standard possessed unit

    Mutilators

    no longer in the book



    Warp talon

    lost cancel overwatch
    gained no fallback
    5a (these are total with claws)



    Raptors

    still have the -1LD aura
    +2a

    Venomcrawler

    is now FA
    is a bit faster (my guess 12" instead of 10")
    now gives +1 to psychic tests
    claws and mechatentrites are now just 1 weapon (again my guess this means the claw profile may be getting +2a)
    ws3 bs3

    Obliterators

    have essentially big guns never tire(shoot into engagement range with -1 to hit)
    ignore modifier for heavy weapons
    armed with powerfists without -1 to hit
    Has 3 shooting profiles:
    Heavy 9+d6 s5 ap1 d1
    Heavy 3+d3 s7 ap2 d2
    Heavy d3 s9 ap3 d4



    Havocs

    exactly the same as right now but 2w



    Stratagems

    something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)

    Other:

    New cultist unit HQ
    New mutant culstists
    Unmarked units gain some support from stratagems and renegade traits (build a warband)


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 03:40:51


    Post by: drbored


    There's a bit new info in there. It includes Warlord Traits for Night Lords, or some of them at least:

    "WLT

    6" aura that cancels obsec

    Relics

    Jump pack: moving over or charging units causes d3 MW on a 2+

    Stratagems

    Vox scream: cancels AURAS
    Jump pack DS turn 1"
    "

    Cancelling obsec, auras, jump packs doing extra stuff... could it be? Could Night Lords really be getting some decent rules?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 04:49:42


    Post by: Marshal Loss


    drbored wrote:
    There's a bit new info in there.


    Nah those aren't actually new, that information was first posted a while ago. Was posted on Dakka as well but evidently might not have made it onto this topic. Night Lords also already have a Vox Scream stratagem that allows them to shut down auras, but the others are new. Not a huge surprise though as I'd expect a good chunk of the Faith & Fury era material to stick around in some form.

    The turn 1 DS stratagem is a little odd given that only matched play prevents you from deep striking on turn 1; not sure if there are any existing stratagems that only apply to matched play?

    There was actually some new information provided/clarified today in the time since I made that post:



    Just posted a correction. I made an error transcribing the nurgle daemonic gift. Misread it .

    Nurgle daemonic gift.

    -1 to wound instead of -1 damage.



    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 11:40:10


    Post by: deffrekka


     Marshal Loss wrote:
    drbored wrote:
    There's a bit new info in there.


    Nah those aren't actually new, that information was first posted a while ago. Was posted on Dakka as well but evidently might not have made it onto this topic. Night Lords also already have a Vox Scream stratagem that allows them to shut down auras, but the others are new. Not a huge surprise though as I'd expect a good chunk of the Faith & Fury era material to stick around in some form.

    The turn 1 DS stratagem is a little odd given that only matched play prevents you from deep striking on turn 1; not sure if there are any existing stratagems that only apply to matched play?

    There was actually some new information provided/clarified today in the time since I made that post:



    Just posted a correction. I made an error transcribing the nurgle daemonic gift. Misread it .

    Nurgle daemonic gift.

    -1 to wound instead of -1 damage.



    GSC can pay points to up the strategic reserve turn counter up by one so they can do a turn 1 DS though it's still limited to restrictions on where you can go on what battle round +1 it is. Turn 1 is turn 2 and so on and so forth.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 16:19:41


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    Still pretty skeptical about this, but this right here intrigues me:

    Unmarked units gain some support from stratagems and renegade traits (build a warband)

    So, does this mean that some custom traits benefit Unmarked units? Or does it work similar to this supposed rule for Chosen?:

    Chosen

    3w
    Stat wise similar to CSM troops (6'' S4 T4 3+/no invul)
    No news on WS BS or A
    can use TH (unconfirmed)
    Gain gain an additional trait that you can choose, this trait is one of traits from the list of build a warband traits

    So can Chosen just get one of the custom traits for free while other Unmarked units can get them for points similar to how Marked units can pay points for the Icons and Daemonic Gifts? Is this the new version of Veteran Skills? Will going Unmarked actually be as viable as taking a Mark again if this leak is true?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 19:02:25


    Post by: Voss


    So Eldritch storm welcomes the warpsmith on one of those dumb ovals bases. Hadn't realized that before.

    With the models all pictured together, its a pretty underwhelming box.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 19:07:10


    Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


    Voss wrote:
    So Eldritch storm welcomes the warpsmith on one of those dumb ovals bases. Hadn't realized that before.

    With the models all pictured together, its a pretty underwhelming box.


    Yeah, strange. At least we'll see if those rumours are complete bull when we'll have the data sheets for the new Chosen.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 19:12:56


    Post by: Manfred von Drakken


     DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
    Voss wrote:
    So Eldritch storm welcomes the warpsmith on one of those dumb ovals bases. Hadn't realized that before.

    With the models all pictured together, its a pretty underwhelming box.


    Yeah, strange. At least we'll see if those rumours are complete bull when we'll have the data sheets for the new Chosen.


    Five bucks says the box includes the current rules - including the single wound.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 19:16:23


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     Manfred von Drakken wrote:
     DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
    Voss wrote:
    So Eldritch storm welcomes the warpsmith on one of those dumb ovals bases. Hadn't realized that before.

    With the models all pictured together, its a pretty underwhelming box.


    Yeah, strange. At least we'll see if those rumours are complete bull when we'll have the data sheets for the new Chosen.


    Five bucks says the box includes the current rules - including the single wound.

    Probably. Nobody gets a second (or possibly third) wound until the codex. Nobody. Gotta get that manufactured discontent up to maximum levels.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 19:35:47


    Post by: Dudeface


    Well the chosen loadout looks like it'll be a mess as expected, I spy:
    2x combi weapon
    2x plasma pistol
    2x bolt pistol
    2x bolter
    2x chainsword
    2x chainaxe
    1x fist
    1x paired claws
    1x power axe
    1x power sword
    1x power maul

    Spoiler:








    Images via some random unboxing by table talk and linked on B&C by Petitioners City.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 19:51:09


    Post by: Wha-Mu-077


    Why is the Warpsmith on an oval base, while the Techmarine is on a regular circle?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 19:54:53


    Post by: Irbis


     Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
    Why is the Warpsmith on an oval base, while the Techmarine is on a regular circle?

    Same reason as Yvraine, long trailing cloak?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 19:55:29


    Post by: Gert


    More base size means more room for conversions. And capes. Very important thing for the leader of an army to have.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 20:04:12


    Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


     Manfred von Drakken wrote:
     DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
    Voss wrote:
    So Eldritch storm welcomes the warpsmith on one of those dumb ovals bases. Hadn't realized that before.

    With the models all pictured together, its a pretty underwhelming box.


    Yeah, strange. At least we'll see if those rumours are complete bull when we'll have the data sheets for the new Chosen.


    Five bucks says the box includes the current rules - including the single wound.


    Good thing I'm not a betting man !


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 20:19:03


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    I don't see any thunder hammers, so there goes that part of the leak. Plenty of heads though. I count 13.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 20:22:56


    Post by: tneva82


     DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
    Voss wrote:
    So Eldritch storm welcomes the warpsmith on one of those dumb ovals bases. Hadn't realized that before.

    With the models all pictured together, its a pretty underwhelming box.


    Yeah, strange. At least we'll see if those rumours are complete bull when we'll have the data sheets for the new Chosen.


    Not really depending on when csm book coming out. Gw has been known to put updated datasheet in box and redo it again right away with new book shortly after.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 20:23:10


    Post by: Plant


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    I don't see any thunder hammers, so there goes that part of the leak. Plenty of heads though. I count 13.

    Would that not be the two-handed Maul?
    (genuine question- I haven't got the 8th ed codex chaos, so no idea what the current wepon stats are)

    Edit- cool I'm still a fresh-faced user!


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 20:36:35


    Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    I don't see any thunder hammers, so there goes that part of the leak. Plenty of heads though. I count 13.


    Was that the 4chan part of the rumour though ?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 20:52:57


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    Plant wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    I don't see any thunder hammers, so there goes that part of the leak. Plenty of heads though. I count 13.

    Would that not be the two-handed Maul?
    (genuine question- I haven't got the 8th ed codex chaos, so no idea what the current wepon stats are)

    Edit- cool I'm still a fresh-faced user!

    No, that's a Power Maul. Thunder hammers are, well, hammers.

    DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    I don't see any thunder hammers, so there goes that part of the leak. Plenty of heads though. I count 13.


    Was that the 4chan part of the rumour though ?

    Yeah. Probably best to sort anything from that troll cave out.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 21:17:49


    Post by: GaroRobe


    That's a lot of heads on the chosen sprue. Makes you wonder why they chose (heh heh) those two god awful bald heads for the promotional image...


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 21:23:15


    Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


     GaroRobe wrote:
    That's a lot of heads on the chosen sprue. Makes you wonder why they chose (heh heh) those two god awful bald heads for the promotional image...


    If communication managers had tastes we'd know it


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 21:30:13


    Post by: Marshal Loss


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    I don't see any thunder hammers, so there goes that part of the leak. Plenty of heads though. I count 13.


    Worth stressing; that part of the leak was from 4chan, not from the same source leaking everything else:

    something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)


    Posted on 24 Jan.

    Everything else though AFAIK is from the same source, so if anything other than the EC thunder hammer chosen line is proven false, apply further salt accordingly.

    Anyway, glad the Chosen kit has plenty of heads etc, as that was mostly what I was interested in the kit for.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 21:33:49


    Post by: Sotahullu


    I am more interested in what combination Chosen can take their weapons.





    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 21:36:44


    Post by: Manfred von Drakken


    Personally, I'm hoping they don't get the Plague Marine treatment, because I converted a squad with hammers when they first got access to them.

    That'll learn me, I guess.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 21:41:46


    Post by: GaroRobe


    Someone pointed out that the warpsmith's backpack has the round piece that primaris have.

    This is why you shouldn't use a primaris techmarine as the base for a chaos model.

    Unless he somehow stole a primaris suit of armor and upgraded it


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 21:50:51


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     Sotahullu wrote:
    I am more interested in what combination Chosen can take their weapons.




    Same. I've always used Chosen and intend to continue to do so. I don't mind as much if they can't spam special weapons, but I don't want to have to roll for a mish-mash of melee weapons every time they get in a fight.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 22:03:20


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Same. I've always used Chosen and intend to continue to do so. I don't mind as much if they can't spam special weapons, but I don't want to have to roll for a mish-mash of melee weapons every time they get in a fight.
    Well, that's going to be their future.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 22:31:35


    Post by: Irbis


     GaroRobe wrote:
    That's a lot of heads on the chosen sprue. Makes you wonder why they chose (heh heh) those two god awful bald heads for the promotional image...

    Ditto for the two new SM models. Not only they choose two garbage, bald heads having 4 others to pick, they hid cool pose, two handed banner grip and you could only see it exists combing through Ancient photo gallery. A+ marketing

     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    I don't see any thunder hammers, so there goes that part of the leak. Plenty of heads though. I count 13.

    Wait, someone remembered that CSM are supposed to be distinct army with their own identity, not SM++? And lots of helmets? First good news I heard from this release

     GaroRobe wrote:
    Someone pointed out that the warpsmith's backpack has the round piece that primaris have.

    This is why you shouldn't use a primaris techmarine as the base for a chaos model.

    Unless he somehow stole a primaris suit of armor and upgraded it

    Can we please stop repeating inane FUD drivel from 4chan?

    Round reactor thingy with skull on it is insanely common element across Imperial and Chaos armies in both HH and 40K, unless, according to you, these models are primaris too? And that's just first minute of looking

    Spoiler:






    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 22:48:24


    Post by: Gert


     GaroRobe wrote:
    Unless he somehow stole a primaris suit of armor and upgraded it

    Yeah, there's no way whatsoever that a Chaos Space Marine obsessed with technology would loot and corrupt more advanced tech to graft onto their own armour that could very well be thousands of years old, that would just be silly.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 22:49:20


    Post by: drbored


    Dudeface wrote:
    Well the chosen loadout looks like it'll be a mess as expected, I spy:
    2x combi weapon
    2x plasma pistol
    2x bolt pistol
    2x bolter
    2x chainsword
    2x chainaxe
    1x fist
    1x paired claws
    1x power axe
    1x power sword
    1x power maul

    Images via some random unboxing by table talk and linked on B&C by Petitioners City.


    The most basic thing you can make out of this would be...

    2 chosen with chainsword and bolt pistol
    1 chosen with paired claws
    2 chosen with bolters

    As soon as you want to put a bolt pistol with any other melee weapon, then you're relegated to using the plasma pistols or combi weapons to fill out the rest of the squad. So...

    2 chosen with chainswords and bolt pistol
    1 chosen with paired claws
    2 chosen with chain axes and plasma pistols

    The above is likely the cheapest all-melee loadout you'll be able to make.

    Now, chainswords and bolt pistols aren't necessarily hard to come by in other chaos marine kits, so I hope that at the very least they retain the ability to take bolt pistol and chainsword across the entire group base... But, if not... this is going to be a mighty disappointing datasheet.

    ---

    Edit: On second look, I count x5 bolters. One looks like it may strap to a model's backpack, but definitely 5.
    I also count x4 Chainswords. Again, one or two look like they strap to the back.

    So, it's possible that the "base" loadout is that each chosen comes with a bolter, chainsword, and bolt pistol (some may be strapped to the models hips) and that the champion may take one of the power weapons. If this is the case, it's not the worst, but not the best.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 22:55:47


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


    There are at least 4 Chainswords on there, two of them separate without hands.

    It's possible that there could be a 5th.



    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 23:01:02


    Post by: drbored


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    There are at least 4 Chainswords on there, two of them separate without hands.

    It's possible that there could be a 5th.



    Not seeing a 5th so far, but it looks like most of the torsos have a pistol holster of some kind.

    My thinking is that the 'base' loadout for chosen will be Bolter, Chainsword, AND Bolt Pistol, and the champion can choose a power weapon.

    From there, it'll be the slog of 'one model can take this' and 'one model can swap this for this, and another can swap that for this', etc.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 23:04:09


    Post by: Wha-Mu-077


    Why is GW obsessed with showing off bald Marine heads in promo pictures?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 23:07:57


    Post by: drbored


     Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
    Why is GW obsessed with showing off bald Marine heads in promo pictures?


    Some painters like painting their models that way, so they show that there are 'non-helmeted' options to attract those painters. It also creates more visual interest in the image when there's a wider variety of heads.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 23:08:52


    Post by: Wha-Mu-077


    drbored wrote:
     Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
    Why is GW obsessed with showing off bald Marine heads in promo pictures?


    Some painters like painting their models that way, so they show that there are 'non-helmeted' options to attract those painters.


    I highly doubt 95% of GW's customes are skilled enough to paint faces to such a standard, so if anything that'll just turn them away.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 23:11:43


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    H.B.M.C. wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Same. I've always used Chosen and intend to continue to do so. I don't mind as much if they can't spam special weapons, but I don't want to have to roll for a mish-mash of melee weapons every time they get in a fight.
    Well, that's going to be their future.

    Eh, there's four chainswords in there, that's enough for the squad + a special for the Aspiring Champion. And they have the same shoulder/arm joints as Havocs, CSM, and Raptors/Warp Talons, so it's still possible we'll get the SoB treatment: if you can get it from another kit, you can have it. But our Terminators are almost definitely screwed though, nobody they can steal from.

    Irbis wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    I don't see any thunder hammers, so there goes that part of the leak. Plenty of heads though. I count 13.

    Wait, someone remembered that CSM are supposed to be distinct army with their own identity, not SM++? And lots of helmets? First good news I heard from this release

    Yeah, their own identity. And that identity is SM++, just not in equipment, but in the marines themselves. Because CSM are supposed to be an army of veterans, empowered by the Dark Gods, not a bunch of thin blooded roided up goons hiding behind fancy toys. And I think if these rumours are true, gw might have finally figured that out. You see those unit stats? Raptors and Warp Talons are both getting +2 attacks. That puts them in the same place as Vanguard Veterans. And those Icons and Daemonic Gifts will make Marks actually do something again. And it looks like we might be getting a form of Veteran Skills back for Unmarked units too. I'll gladly give up thunder hammers to get that back.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/30 23:12:08


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


    drbored wrote:
    From there, it'll be the slog of 'one model can take this' and 'one model can swap this for this, and another can swap that for this', etc.
    What's amazing is that this has turned out somehow worse than I anticipated. I at least thought that, however awkward it might be, you'd at least be able to do 1 of each Combi-Weapon per 5 (so 6 in a 10-man squad). But no, they've added the 'build-a-combi' style combi-weapon to this, so it'll no doubt be 2 Combi-weapons per five.

    I fear for Chaos Terminators.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 00:18:19


    Post by: drbored


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    drbored wrote:
    From there, it'll be the slog of 'one model can take this' and 'one model can swap this for this, and another can swap that for this', etc.
    What's amazing is that this has turned out somehow worse than I anticipated. I at least thought that, however awkward it might be, you'd at least be able to do 1 of each Combi-Weapon per 5 (so 6 in a 10-man squad). But no, they've added the 'build-a-combi' style combi-weapon to this, so it'll no doubt be 2 Combi-weapons per five.

    I fear for Chaos Terminators.


    tbf, 2 combi weapons (especially now that they've gotten rid of the one-shot rule, good riddance) for chosen isn't too shabby. You take 2 bolters, 2 combi weapons, and a cheap loadout for the champion and you've got what likely will be a relatively cheap way to get more plasma or melta on the table. If the other rumors are true that they get another trait from the 'build-a-warband' list, then you can tailor them to be quite deadly with those. Like, if they can get a trait that helps them get over the -1 to hit for using both forms of the combi weapon, then that's quite a lot of firepower coming out of a 5-man squad.

    It's not a full squad of combi weapons or special weapons which is a shame, but imo that's more what Havocs are for.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 00:26:14


    Post by: Voss


    drbored wrote:
     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    drbored wrote:
    From there, it'll be the slog of 'one model can take this' and 'one model can swap this for this, and another can swap that for this', etc.
    What's amazing is that this has turned out somehow worse than I anticipated. I at least thought that, however awkward it might be, you'd at least be able to do 1 of each Combi-Weapon per 5 (so 6 in a 10-man squad). But no, they've added the 'build-a-combi' style combi-weapon to this, so it'll no doubt be 2 Combi-weapons per five.

    I fear for Chaos Terminators.


    tbf, 2 combi weapons (especially now that they've gotten rid of the one-shot rule, good riddance) for chosen isn't too shabby. You take 2 bolters, 2 combi weapons, and a cheap loadout for the champion and you've got what likely will be a relatively cheap way to get more plasma or melta on the table. If the other rumors are true that they get another trait from the 'build-a-warband' list, then you can tailor them to be quite deadly with those. Like, if they can get a trait that helps them get over the -1 to hit for using both forms of the combi weapon, then that's quite a lot of firepower coming out of a 5-man squad.

    It's not a full squad of combi weapons or special weapons which is a shame, but imo that's more what Havocs are for.


    Wait, can the weird Havoc units even take special weapons these days? The champ can, but I thought that was it. The rest of the squad is heavy only, final destination.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 00:33:38


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


    drbored wrote:
    tbf, 2 combi weapons ... for chosen isn't too shabby.
    Meanwhile...

    drbored wrote:
    You take 2 bolters, 2 combi weapons, and a cheap loadout for the champion and you've got what likely will be a relatively cheap way to get more plasma or melta on the table. If the other rumors are true that they get another trait from the 'build-a-warband' list, then you can tailor them to be quite deadly with those. Like, if they can get a trait that helps them get over the -1 to hit for using both forms of the combi weapon, then that's quite a lot of firepower coming out of a 5-man squad.
    I'd rather the firepower (or HTH capabilities) not be limited by what's on one sprue, even if what you say is the case.

    drbored wrote:
    It's not a full squad of combi weapons or special weapons which is a shame, but imo that's more what Havocs are for.
    Sadly that's not what Havocs are for anymore. Now they're giant T5 Marines that only come in squads of 5 and with 4 heavy weapons, and the Champ defaults with a Flamer for reasons beyond understanding.

    Kinda fethed over my Death Guard Havocs twice - once because they don't exist in the DG Codex anymore, and twice when Havocs lost the ability to take special weapons. Went to a great deal of trouble to get exactly 7 units of 7 Plague Marines (4 Regular/3 Havoc), with the Havoc units having 4 Plasma and 4 Melta. And they invalidated my Plague Terminators at the same time. I imagine the same fate for my oodles of regular Chaos Terminators, as I had the temerity to take more than 1 of each Combi-Weapon per squad.



    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 01:07:17


    Post by: drbored


    Havocs play the role of long ranged firepower with heavy weapons, I know, and there are lots of other ways to get plasma guns, melta guns, and other things onto the table, so I don't see a ton of need for a squad of Chosen with nothing but combi weapons, since that's not the role I see them playing. It'd be nice, yes.

    We can pray, thanks to there being a plethora of options throughout the other chaos kits, that GW doesn't screw us over on this and lets us take other special weapons and such in the squad, but it hasn't been their trend.

    There's tons of chainswords, power axes, power mauls, bolt pistols, even combi weapons in other kits like the regular Chaos Marines, Havocs, and Raptors. So, hopefully we still get the options. I'm just not counting on it.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 01:21:03


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


    I wonder if the Warpsmith will have to have a Plasma Pistol from now on in the same way the Primaris Techmarine always has a Grav-Pistol?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 04:13:00


    Post by: drbored


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    I wonder if the Warpsmith will have to have a Plasma Pistol from now on in the same way the Primaris Techmarine always has a Grav-Pistol?


    Likely. Don't see any other option on the sprue.

    Not sure how I feel about it. Part of me laments the idea of just giving him a bolt pistol, but tbh, the only reason you would do that is to save points. There's certainly something to be said for being able to save 5-10 points to fit a character into a list, but missing that isn't a huge deal. With so many chaos marine vehicles wanting to be up close and personal (most daemon engines), getting into range with the pistol and melta that he has isn't going to be as much of an issue as a techmarine chilling by a thunderfire cannon or whirlwinds or predators or any of that


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 05:41:49


    Post by: MajorWesJanson


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
    I wonder if the Warpsmith will have to have a Plasma Pistol from now on in the same way the Primaris Techmarine always has a Grav-Pistol?


    Primaris techmarine didnt have a prior model armed with a bolt pistol. I expect the warpsmith to have either option, and option for axe or hammer.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 08:27:21


    Post by: Not Online!!!


    Maybee we will get positively surprised and get chosen with normal equip options. Afterall they look similar compatible to havocs/csm which have options not in their box sofar.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 09:14:30


    Post by: blood reaper


    There goes my Plasma Chosen and my converted Terminators. What's worse is that some people defend it ("It's good for new players!" Well what about the rest of us?)


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 09:45:37


    Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


    We have the price for Eldritch Omens. 125£


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 10:41:31


    Post by: Mothman


    Im still leaning towards chosen will keep a wider range of weapon options than on sprue

    I dont think they have lost 9 weapon options (melta/plasma/flamer/thunderhammer/chaincannon/mlauncher/lascannon/heavy bolter/autocannon)


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 10:45:11


    Post by: blood reaper


     Mothman wrote:
    Im still leaning towards chosen will keep a wider range of weapon options than on sprue

    I dont think they have lost 9 weapon options (melta/plasma/flamer/thunderhammer/chaincannon/mlauncher/lascannon/heavy bolter/autocannon)


    Based on what evidence?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 11:06:06


    Post by: Mothman


     blood reaper wrote:
     Mothman wrote:
    Im still leaning towards chosen will keep a wider range of weapon options than on sprue

    I dont think they have lost 9 weapon options (melta/plasma/flamer/thunderhammer/chaincannon/mlauncher/lascannon/heavy bolter/autocannon)


    Based on what evidence?


    Gut feeling like most people
    I am expecting their toolkit to be limited somewhat I just dont expect them to loose all 9 of those weapons, would also infer base marines are also loosing chaincannon/lascannons/thunderhammer/autocannons and lightning claws on champs as those are not in their box, the Havocs options are apparently not changing yet their champ can take combi weapons/lightning claws/power axe/power fist/plasma and bolt pistols/boltguns which are all not in their box


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 11:07:09


    Post by: Nazrak


     DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
    We have the price for Eldritch Omens. 125£

    Bit disappointed at this as I was hoping for £105, in line with the last couple of boxes. Personally £125 takes it from an auto-buy for me into "hmmmm maybe I'll just wait and see how excited I end up being for those kits by the time I'm actually in a position to paint them" territory. Although this box was always going to be the first test of resolve for my "paint old stuff before buying new stuff in 2022" policy, so at least now I can convince myself I'm being extremely restrained.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 11:08:55


    Post by: Dudeface


     Nazrak wrote:
     DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
    We have the price for Eldritch Omens. 125£

    Bit disappointed at this as I was hoping for £105, in line with the last couple of boxes. Personally £125 takes it from an auto-buy for me into "hmmmm maybe I'll just wait and see how excited I end up being for those kits by the time I'm actually in a position to paint them" territory. Although this box was always going to be the first test of resolve for my "paint old stuff before buying new stuff in 2022" policy, so at least now I can convince myself I'm being extremely restrained.

    It's still all of the chaos shiz for the price of a forgefiend if you sell the eldar half for a decent price, as it'll be in much higher demand.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 11:28:55


    Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


    Dudeface wrote:
     Nazrak wrote:
     DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
    We have the price for Eldritch Omens. 125£

    Bit disappointed at this as I was hoping for £105, in line with the last couple of boxes. Personally £125 takes it from an auto-buy for me into "hmmmm maybe I'll just wait and see how excited I end up being for those kits by the time I'm actually in a position to paint them" territory. Although this box was always going to be the first test of resolve for my "paint old stuff before buying new stuff in 2022" policy, so at least now I can convince myself I'm being extremely restrained.

    It's still all of the chaos shiz for the price of a forgefiend if you sell the eldar half for a decent price, as it'll be in much higher demand.


    Personally I think I'll scrounge up for two. But I'll do half with my brother who play Eldar, so that makes it more then worth.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 11:56:03


    Post by: Nazrak


    Oh, it's for sure decent enough value if you're looking to split, or want both, but personally that price point takes it from "impulsive auto-buy" to "ok I need to think about this"


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 12:09:52


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    H.B.M.C. wrote:
    drbored wrote:
    You take 2 bolters, 2 combi weapons, and a cheap loadout for the champion and you've got what likely will be a relatively cheap way to get more plasma or melta on the table. If the other rumors are true that they get another trait from the 'build-a-warband' list, then you can tailor them to be quite deadly with those. Like, if they can get a trait that helps them get over the -1 to hit for using both forms of the combi weapon, then that's quite a lot of firepower coming out of a 5-man squad.
    I'd rather the firepower (or HTH capabilities) not be limited by what's on one sprue, even if what you say is the case.

    Agreed. It isn't a matter of whether or not the options they're given can "work", but whether or not you can outfit them as you want and whether or not the existing models in people's current collections are invalidated. The additional trait is still interested though, particularly if "Unmarked" units can do the same for a price, which is one way to interpret the leak on that subject.

    Not Online!!! wrote:Maybee we will get positively surprised and get chosen with normal equip options. Afterall they look similar compatible to havocs/csm which have options not in their box sofar.

    They do look like they'll share compatibility with our other power armoured infantry, so that is possible. It's just a matter if that compatibility factors into gw's rules writing. They've been consistently inconsistent with how they've done that so far in 9th edition codexes. We unfortunately won't know how they handle it for Chosen and other CSM infantry until we actually see the rules in the codex.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 12:10:57


    Post by: lord_blackfang


     Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
    Why is GW obsessed with showing off bald Marine heads in promo pictures?


    I would tell you, but then I'd have to shave you


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 12:13:22


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     Nazrak wrote:
    Oh, it's for sure decent enough value if you're looking to split, or want both, but personally that price point takes it from "impulsive auto-buy" to "ok I need to think about this"

    For me it puts it into the "get the Chosen/Warpsmith on eBay/when they're released separately" category. Even splitting doesn't sound good, as I have no desire to pay for a Forgefiend that I don't want.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 12:13:51


    Post by: the_scotsman


    OOf...so that's over 100$ per person even with splitting the box, huh...

    Man...do I REALLY want to support that one god damn multi-pose Autarch sprue enough to shell out about 50x what it would cost to print the miniatures...

    ....yeah, probably. Its also a box set that doesnt include any space marines at all.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 12:42:39


    Post by: xttz


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-kaqihNx40

    Assembly instructions / options for models in the new box


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 13:14:37


    Post by: lord_blackfang


    Well at least they're proper multipart


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 13:27:55


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Well at least they're proper multipart
    I don't know if I'd quite use the word 'proper'. From the pages we've seen it still appears that certain weapons only go with certain torsos. And it worries me that it's the Champion who has access to the Maul or Axe, which might imply that only he can get that, and the rest of the squad can't. Also no apparent Bolt Pistol option; dude's gotta have a bolter.

    Happy to be proven wrong here, of course. Me being wrong = more options for everyone, though I doubt that'll be reflected in the rules.



    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 13:40:10


    Post by: Gadzilla666


     H.B.M.C. wrote:
     lord_blackfang wrote:
    Well at least they're proper multipart
    I don't know if I'd quite use the word 'proper'. From the pages we've seen it still appears that certain weapons only go with certain torsos. And it worries me that it's the Champion who has access to the Maul or Axe, which might imply that only he can get that, and the rest of the squad can't. Also no apparent Bolt Pistol option; dude's gotta have a bolter.

    Happy to be proven wrong here, of course. Me being wrong = more options for everyone, though I doubt that'll be reflected in the rules.


    No help for the melee weapons, but the instructions for the CSM Aspiring Champion only show options for pistols + melee weapons, while just giving him a bolter is an option both in the rules and kit if you ignore the instructions.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 13:50:22


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    Can someone explain the transfer sheet to me? I see that it has transfers for thousand son players but not Emperor's Children. All of the CSM codex chapters except EC get transfers. Thousand sons have their own Codex while EC are in the CSM codex but don't get any transfers. What is going through GW's minds with this?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 14:01:57


    Post by: Gert


    The transfer sheet is just a bit weird. Nothing else to say really.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 14:28:37


    Post by: Dudeface


    Cultists of all kind do not get legion traits

    Cultist hq squad boosts moral or LD of other cultists

    Cultist mutants have 2 different profiles depending on the type of mutant you take

    Small mutant s4 t4 ap1
    Big mutant s5 t4 ap2


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 14:29:53


    Post by: Crimson


     H.B.M.C. wrote:

    I don't know if I'd quite use the word 'proper'. From the pages we've seen it still appears that certain weapons only go with certain torsos.

    Why would you think that? They have flat arm joints, exactly like the older kits.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 14:33:38


    Post by: H.B.M.C.


     Crimson wrote:
    Why would you think that? They have flat arm joints, exactly like the older kits.
    If that's the case, then that's fantastic!


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 14:40:51


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    Dudeface wrote:
    Cultists of all kind do not get legion traits

    Cultist hq squad boosts moral or LD of other cultists

    Cultist mutants have 2 different profiles depending on the type of mutant you take

    Small mutant s4 t4 ap1
    Big mutant s5 t4 ap2

    "Small" Mutants and "BIG" Mutants?

    *slaps down Eye of Terror campaign book open to the Lost and The Damned army list*

    Hellooo!!


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 14:48:30


    Post by: Not Online!!!


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Dudeface wrote:
    Cultists of all kind do not get legion traits

    Cultist hq squad boosts moral or LD of other cultists

    Cultist mutants have 2 different profiles depending on the type of mutant you take

    Small mutant s4 t4 ap1
    Big mutant s5 t4 ap2

    "Small" Mutants and "BIG" Mutants?

    *slaps down Eye of Terror campaign book open to the Lost and The Damned army list*

    Hellooo!!


    also good bye, no traits is a dealbreaker, making cultists basically worthless.
    IoW once again shafted by gw.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 15:08:09


    Post by: Gert


    Not Online!!! wrote:
    also good bye, no traits is a dealbreaker, making cultists basically worthless.
    IoW once again shafted by gw.

    But why should non-CSM get the traits? It would be like giving Chapter traits to a Servitor or Regiment traits to Ogryn.
    Also, you don't know that Cultists won't get rules like Kroot did in the T'au Codex where you can field an army of them or one of the Legion traits could be like the Dal'Yth Sept and give certain army buffs to your Cultist units. There are loads of ways this can be played by GW and you shouldn't put so much stock in rumours.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 15:10:37


    Post by: Not Online!!!


     Gert wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    also good bye, no traits is a dealbreaker, making cultists basically worthless.
    IoW once again shafted by gw.

    But why should non-CSM get the traits? It would be like giving Chapter traits to a Servitor or Regiment traits to Ogryn.
    Also, you don't know that Cultists won't get rules like Kroot did in the T'au Codex where you can field an army of them or one of the Legion traits could be like the Dal'Yth Sept and give certain army buffs to your Cultist units. There are loads of ways this can be played by GW and you shouldn't put so much stock in rumours.


    why shouldn't cultists, and other chaotic paramilitaries not get traits at all? Cue Alpha legion, IW, f.e.

    And literallly worthless in the case as that it mentioned explicitly no traits for Cultists units at all. Basically once again shafting that part of chaos, after that main list being legended.
    And no, a +2 morale HQ is NOT capable of replacing a rule layer.

    In other news, if it is accurate you won't see cultists, ever, for decency at all. And if you see them they are basically less worth than broodbrothers for GSC which you incidentally ALSO don't see at all, and those don't even require a HQ to get +2 morale btw.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 15:27:48


    Post by: Gert


    Not Online!!! wrote:
    why shouldn't cultists, and other chaotic paramilitaries not get traits at all? Cue Alpha legion, IW, f.e.

    And literallly worthless in the case as that it mentioned explicitly no traits for Cultists units at all. Basically once again shafting that part of chaos, after that main list being legended.
    And no, a +2 morale HQ is NOT capable of replacing a rule layer.

    In other news, if it is accurate you won't see cultists, ever, for decency at all. And if you see them they are basically less worth than broodbrothers for GSC which you incidentally ALSO don't see at all, and those don't even require a HQ to get +2 morale btw.

    First, at least come up with an answer instead of just asking another question.
    Second, Cultists aren't members of their respective Legions/Warbands, they are auxiliary forces used as force multipliers. What's the difference between a Cultist tied to the Black Legion, Iron Warriors, or Word Bearers? Nothing, they are all cannon fodder for members of the Legion who will do the real damage. It doesn't matter that the Word Bearers use the Cults to infiltrate worlds, when the battle starts they are used for the exact same purpose as every other Cultist. Case in point, the Word Bearers Omnibus. The main character asks who leads the Cultists, the leader steps up and is shot in the face because he looked at the Word Bearer. The Word Bearer then proceeds to force the Cultists to name themselves "Dog" and herds them into the PDF's guns explicitly stating their need to sacrifice themselves to prevent the Legion Brothers from coming to harm. Another example can be found in the novel Apocalypse where the pirates of the system the Word Bearers are invading are conscripted as cannon fodder and distractions to prevent damage to the Legion advances.
    The only Legion where Cultists are remotely valued is the Alpha Legion and even then they shouldn't get Legion traits but rather gain other buffs from doctrines or whatever.
    You are putting way to much faith in these rumours, you need to take a step back and get some skepticism.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 15:37:40


    Post by: Jack Flask


    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    also good bye, no traits is a dealbreaker, making cultists basically worthless.
    IoW once again shafted by gw.

    But why should non-CSM get the traits? It would be like giving Chapter traits to a Servitor or Regiment traits to Ogryn.
    Also, you don't know that Cultists won't get rules like Kroot did in the T'au Codex where you can field an army of them or one of the Legion traits could be like the Dal'Yth Sept and give certain army buffs to your Cultist units. There are loads of ways this can be played by GW and you shouldn't put so much stock in rumours.


    why shouldn't cultists, and other chaotic paramilitaries not get traits at all? Cue Alpha legion, IW, f.e.


    Because those traits are meant to represent the training, culture, and philosophy of the Legion/Warband they are representing. Something cultists and other auxiliary assets are not allowed to partake in, even in AL or WB for example. Yes, AL train their cult operatives and treat them with a level of trust other legions don't, but those expendable mortal assets are still beneath the inner workings and traditions of their Astartes lords.

    Not Online!!! wrote:

    And literallly worthless in the case as that it mentioned explicitly no traits for Cultists units at all. Basically once again shafting that part of chaos, after that main list being legended.
    And no, a +2 morale HQ is NOT capable of replacing a rule layer.

    In other news, if it is accurate you won't see cultists, ever, for decency at all. And if you see them they are basically less worth than broodbrothers for GSC which you incidentally ALSO don't see at all, and those don't even require a HQ to get +2 morale btw.


    As a collector of cultists and renegade guard, lover of the lost IA13, and occasional spiky Guard proxy-er; good! Take cultists out of CSM.

    I also play/collect CSM and I don't want CSM in my RnH or RnH in my CSM. Give each of them their own codex and let them ally each other. I couldn't care less if it trashes people want for cheap troop fillers.
    Both CSM shouldn't have to constantly be justified against a metric of "but if I take this chaff I can fit more overtuned crap in my list" and RnH are a concept that deserves it's own range.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 15:42:26


    Post by: Not Online!!!


     Jack Flask wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
     Gert wrote:
    Not Online!!! wrote:
    also good bye, no traits is a dealbreaker, making cultists basically worthless.
    IoW once again shafted by gw.

    But why should non-CSM get the traits? It would be like giving Chapter traits to a Servitor or Regiment traits to Ogryn.
    Also, you don't know that Cultists won't get rules like Kroot did in the T'au Codex where you can field an army of them or one of the Legion traits could be like the Dal'Yth Sept and give certain army buffs to your Cultist units. There are loads of ways this can be played by GW and you shouldn't put so much stock in rumours.


    why shouldn't cultists, and other chaotic paramilitaries not get traits at all? Cue Alpha legion, IW, f.e.


    Because those traits are meant to represent the training, culture, and philosophy of the Legion/Warband they are representing. Something cultists and other auxiliary assets are not allowed to partake in, even in AL or WB for example. Yes, AL train their cult operatives and treat them with a level of trust other legions don't, but those expendable mortal assets are still beneath the inner workings and traditions of their Astartes lords.

    AL literally regard their cultists as members of the legion.


    Not Online!!! wrote:

    And literallly worthless in the case as that it mentioned explicitly no traits for Cultists units at all. Basically once again shafting that part of chaos, after that main list being legended.
    And no, a +2 morale HQ is NOT capable of replacing a rule layer.

    In other news, if it is accurate you won't see cultists, ever, for decency at all. And if you see them they are basically less worth than broodbrothers for GSC which you incidentally ALSO don't see at all, and those don't even require a HQ to get +2 morale btw.


    As a collector of cultists and renegade guard, lover of the lost IA13, and occasional spiky Guard proxy-er; good! Take cultists out of CSM.

    I also play/collect CSM and I don't want CSM in my RnH or RnH in my CSM. Give each of them their own codex and let them ally each other. I couldn't care less if it trashes people want for cheap troop fillers.
    Both CSM shouldn't have to constantly be justified against a metric of "but if I take this chaff I can fit more overtuned crap in my list" and RnH are a concept that deserves it's own range.


    I mean that would be optimal but ain't gonna happen because GW gonna GW, so instead they seemingly threw them in with the CSM codex to fill gaps for throwing things out?!? i don't know, but if accurate your R&H might aswell remain in a box for the forseable future because if that is ALL that that part gets we're basically already saddled with 5 dead slots.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 15:57:54


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    What they do with Cultists isn't important for any potential revitalization of LatD/R&H. Cultists were not a part of either of those lists. What they do with the rumored Traitor Guardsmen is what's important for LatD/R&H.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 16:55:42


    Post by: Dudeface


    Impending generalising of chosen weapons apparently, seems very suspicious to me:

    "Leak about chosen.

    Chosen in the box eldritch omens are still at their 8ed codex datasheet (so dont be surprised by 1w and seeing TH as an option)

    In the new book, their base loadout is boltgun & accursed weapon (S+1 ap3 d1; +1a)

    For every 5 models, can replace 2 boltguns with 2 pistols

    For every 5 models, can replace 2 boltguns with 2 combis

    For every 5 models, can replace 1 boltgun for a second accursed weapon.

    Chosen have been confirmed to me to be ws/bs 3 and 3a base"


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 17:04:21


    Post by: Leo_the_Rat


    What about melee choices? And since when does a ranged weapon add to Attacks?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 17:08:17


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    What about melee choices? And since when does a ranged weapon add to Attacks?

    The "Accursed Weapons" are the melee weapons. It's the "Harlequins Treatment". Which weapons you put on the models would be purely cosmetic, as they'd all have the same stats. Expect stratagems for "special rules" if this is true.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 17:11:01


    Post by: zamerion


    it seems that tyranids will come before chaos?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 17:12:44


    Post by: Dudeface


    zamerion wrote:
    it seems that tyranids will come before chaos?


    Confused and annoyed by this. Have new kits chaos guys, but still no book or 2nd wound


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    What about melee choices? And since when does a ranged weapon add to Attacks?

    The "Accursed Weapons" are the melee weapons. It's the "Harlequins Treatment". Which weapons you put on the models would be purely cosmetic, as they'd all have the same stats. Expect stratagems for "special rules" if this is true.


    On one hand it means I'm not in limbo assembling them if true, and explains the sprues a little better.

    On the other it just feels... wrong.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 17:16:44


    Post by: Gert


    zamerion wrote:
    it seems that tyranids will come before chaos?

    That's not what it says. All it says is that it's an exciting time for Xenos players because Tyranids are coming.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 17:18:14


    Post by: Crimson


    I wish power axes, mauls and swords were lumped back together into "power weapons" and chain swords and axes into "chain weapons" but if both of these and lightning claws and power fists are all lumped together in one massive category, then that just seems totally wrong...


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 17:19:27


    Post by: Dudeface


     Gert wrote:
    zamerion wrote:
    it seems that tyranids will come before chaos?

    That's not what it says. All it says is that it's an exciting time for Xenos players because Tyranids are coming.


    "after the craftworlds touch down, there’s something gribbly and chitinous coming."

    Sounds sequential to me.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 17:20:52


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    zamerion wrote:it seems that tyranids will come before chaos?

    Oh for sake!!!!

    Dudeface wrote:
    zamerion wrote:
    it seems that tyranids will come before chaos?


    Confused and annoyed by this. Have new kits chaos guys, but still no book or 2nd wound


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    What about melee choices? And since when does a ranged weapon add to Attacks?

    The "Accursed Weapons" are the melee weapons. It's the "Harlequins Treatment". Which weapons you put on the models would be purely cosmetic, as they'd all have the same stats. Expect stratagems for "special rules" if this is true.


    On one hand it means I'm not in limbo assembling them if true, and explains the sprues a little better.

    On the other it just feels... wrong.

    Yeah. Very, very wrong. Including those stats. 3 attacks? Chosen have the same number of attacks as Raptors? Whut?


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 17:30:50


    Post by: chaos0xomega


    A semi-reliable source of mine had heard rumors from some of his sources that Tyranids would be coming before CSM but we didn't think much of it because the otherwise reliable rumor guy seemed to indicate that it would be CSM and Eldar before Tyranids or anything else, so uhhh... its looking likely that they are, in fact, coming before CSM.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 17:36:44


    Post by: Tyran


    On the other hand, it seems that Tyranids will be a modest codex + new model(s) release, while CSM seem a larger release with updates to existing kits.

    GW rarely does larger releases back to back, and Eldar will be a quite large release.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 17:38:43


    Post by: tneva82


     Tyran wrote:
    On the other hand, it seems that Tyranids will be a modest codex + new model(s) release, while CSM seem a larger release with updates to existing kits.

    GW rarely does larger releases back to back, and Eldar will be a quite large release.


    Yep that's the flipside.

    Eldar and CSM if both are huge model updates back to back would eat into each other sales which is bad for GW. It would also(depending on exact timings) load up one financial quarter so that one quarter gets huge sale spike and then next unless they put up lots of big stuff there as well then would result in big slump. Investors don't like spikes up and down. Steady growth is what they want to see.

    So not being back to back at least gives better hope for good miniature releases for them as well. For CSM I'm hoping good luck for happy release! You deserve it


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 17:44:45


    Post by: EviscerationPlague


     Crimson wrote:
    I wish power axes, mauls and swords were lumped back together into "power weapons" and chain swords and axes into "chain weapons" but if both of these and lightning claws and power fists are all lumped together in one massive category, then that just seems totally wrong...

    I sorta agree. I'm fine with just two stats for Powet Weapons, of course being Swords and Axes. Most things can go under one of those umbrellas and then whatever can't will just get its own datasheet.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    What about melee choices? And since when does a ranged weapon add to Attacks?

    The "Accursed Weapons" are the melee weapons. It's the "Harlequins Treatment". Which weapons you put on the models would be purely cosmetic, as they'd all have the same stats. Expect stratagems for "special rules" if this is true.

    In a way, this isn't the worst thing. It means you can have a mishmash of weapons for looks (for those fluff bunnies that mix everything, anyway) but you only need to roll for one profile. If anything, it's brilliant.

    The real question will come down to cost, rest of the range options, and access to D2+ weapons.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 18:34:46


    Post by: Gadzilla666


    EviscerationPlague wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    What about melee choices? And since when does a ranged weapon add to Attacks?

    The "Accursed Weapons" are the melee weapons. It's the "Harlequins Treatment". Which weapons you put on the models would be purely cosmetic, as they'd all have the same stats. Expect stratagems for "special rules" if this is true.

    In a way, this isn't the worst thing. It means you can have a mishmash of weapons for looks (for those fluff bunnies that mix everything, anyway) but you only need to roll for one profile. If anything, it's brilliant.

    The real question will come down to cost, rest of the range options, and access to D2+ weapons.

    If this is true, then your D2+ weapons will be overcharged plasma, melta, and probably a stratagem (ugh) that turns all of your Accursed Weapons into power fists for a turn. Their effectiveness will probably come down to what combinations of Icon + Daemonic Gift + trait you can give them.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 20:23:31


    Post by: DreadfullyHopeful


     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    EviscerationPlague wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    What about melee choices? And since when does a ranged weapon add to Attacks?

    The "Accursed Weapons" are the melee weapons. It's the "Harlequins Treatment". Which weapons you put on the models would be purely cosmetic, as they'd all have the same stats. Expect stratagems for "special rules" if this is true.

    In a way, this isn't the worst thing. It means you can have a mishmash of weapons for looks (for those fluff bunnies that mix everything, anyway) but you only need to roll for one profile. If anything, it's brilliant.

    The real question will come down to cost, rest of the range options, and access to D2+ weapons.

    If this is true, then your D2+ weapons will be overcharged plasma, melta, and probably a stratagem (ugh) that turns all of your Accursed Weapons into power fists for a turn. Their effectiveness will probably come down to what combinations of Icon + Daemonic Gift + trait you can give them.


    I don't know... It does feel very wrong. It's a whole part of the hobby no ? To customize, to play with and to paint "your dudes". Like with the harly weapons it seem like they didn't even want to bother.
    And remember that rumour says that Chaos Knights will come out before us. So it's two releases at least before we finally get our second wound.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 20:43:21


    Post by: drbored


    These rules could just be the rules that we're getting in the Eldritch Omens box and not what will be represented in the Codex whenever it comes out. GW have done this sort of thing before (remember the rules disparity between the armigers in Forgebane and in the actual Knights codex?)

    Until we see an actual datasheet, I'm pretty sus. Lumping lightning claws (that traditionally get more attacks and some form of reroll) with power fists (that get -1 to hit but a lot more damage) is very wrong. The only benefit is for speed of play, and I'd much rather have the options represented so I know which of my Chosen to promote when he kills more enemies and which to turn into a Chaos Spawn when he whiffs all his rolls.


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 20:57:10


    Post by: Sgt. Cortez


    If that Chosen rumour is true I guess it's GW's way to say: "we heard you didn't like the Plague Marine datasheet, so take this instead."


    Chaos Space Marine codex rumours and news. @ 2022/01/31 20:58:08


    Post by: Rihgu


     DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    EviscerationPlague wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Leo_the_Rat wrote:
    What about melee choices? And since when does a ranged weapon add to Attacks?

    The "Accursed Weapons" are the melee weapons. It's the "Harlequins Treatment". Which weapons you put on the models would be purely cosmetic, as they'd all have the same stats. Expect stratagems for "special rules" if this is true.

    In a way, this isn't the worst thing. It means you can have a mishmash of weapons for looks (for those fluff bunnies that mix everything, anyway) but you only need to roll for one profile. If anything, it's brilliant.

    The real question will come down to cost, rest of the range options, and access to D2+ weapons.

    If this is true, then your D2+ weapons will be overcharged plasma, melta, and probably a stratagem (ugh) that turns all of your Accursed Weapons into power fists for a turn. Their effectiveness will probably come down to what combinations of Icon + Daemonic Gift + trait you can give them.


    I don't know... It does feel very wrong. It's a whole part of the hobby no ? To customize, to play with and to paint "your dudes". Like with the harly weapons it seem like they didn't even want to bother.
    And remember that rumour says that Chaos Knights will come out before us. So it's two releases at least before we finally get our second wound.


    I don't need a special rule to tell me that my Chosen wielding an axe is a different special guy with a different special weapon than my Chosen wielding a sword. I especially don't need to spend 3 hours resolving the attacks of my super unique super special super squad because each one has been customized with a unique weapon.

    Consolidated weapons like harlequins and Chosen (if these are true) are, for me, the best way for them to allow me to fully customize and play with my dudes. I have honestly been *not* building Chosen specifically because I didn't want to play with their messy weapon options, and also didn't want to optimize and take this year's strongest weapons. Chosen are supposed to be unique guys with their own preferred ways of doing things, having all of them wield a chainsword and a plasma gun doesn't show case that at all. Having Kroghas wield a power axe, Chulxiss wield a chainsword, and Trommal wield a thunder hammer but still being able to quickly roll all my attacks at once is perfect.