Some kits being rotated out and the ensuing discussion(S) here had me wondering, do people prefer a model specific to a role or kits that allow customisation and thus one kit can play multiple roles. For example, the rune priest. Would you prefer a special model for this character, or a kit that might make a rune priest or a different character depending on load out and possible back banner decal and so on?
I expect a clear result in one direction, but may be surprised. Given the plastic medium, I expect that GW might ge able to go either way. Without comment on the obvious, which would you prefer?
Depends on the model (and to some extent the army) Guard, for example, could easily have an officers and advisors kit (or sprue add-on, much like the extra KT sprue for Kreig), while a chaplain isn't ever really a librarian.
And they're aren't mutually exclusive anyway-
a model can have a singular role but multiple options. We even got a glimmer there with the new Autarch.
Not sure what 'the obvious' is, so it probably deserves comment.
If we're talking about characters, I generally prefer to kitbash my own from standard infantry kits. But if I'm going to actually pay the price gw asks nowadays for a character kit, I want as many options as possible. The high point of character kits is the CSM Terminator Chaos Lord/Sorcerer for me: tons of options, it can build two different types of character, and it has the coolest chainfist in the game IMHO.
There are times where a dedicated kit let the sculptor bring a model to the table better. Often multi-functionality leads to compromise.
That said, when they put their minds to it, they can do amazing things with kits and flexability these days. And it’s a shame they don’t do it more often.
It's not really covered by the poll, but cross-compatibility for ease of kitbashing is my personal preference. The drukhari range (sans monopose newer stuff) is the high water mark for this IMO - just so much to play around with.
Gadzilla666 wrote: If we're talking about characters, I generally prefer to kitbash my own from standard infantry kits. But if I'm going to actually pay the price gw asks nowadays for a character kit, I want as many options as possible. The high point of character kits is the CSM Terminator Chaos Lord/Sorcerer for me: tons of options, it can build two different types of character, and it has the coolest chainfist in the game IMHO.
This... So much agree about that terminator lord/sorcerer kit. I had hoped GW would release a plastic equivalent. Even better if it could also make a dark apostle etc. and best of all if they marketed this kit as being compatible to make bike lord/sorcerers (preferably with another bike kit). I’m certain other factions have similar stories. I even bet that space marine players would appreciate not having to scroll through several pages of characters to figure out what they want.
I think there needs to be some of both. Sure, GWcould put out a Marine kit that built Intercessors and Hellblasters, or Bladeguard and Veteran Intercessors, or Aggressors and Inceptors, but you'd wind up with ridiculous piles of extra bits that you'd never have a use for.
The Tau Strike/Breacher team kit is a terrible example of this. Those two squads have almost no overlap except the torso so if you're not willing to print/mold that one piece you wind up with a huge pile of wasted bits left over that you can't do much with.
Some kits being rotated out and the ensuing discussion(S) here had me wondering, do people prefer a model specific to a role or kits that allow customisation and thus one kit can play multiple roles. For example, the rune priest. Would you prefer a special model for this character, or a kit that might make a rune priest or a different character depending on load out and possible back banner decal and so on?
I expect a clear result in one direction, but may be surprised. Given the plastic medium, I expect that GW might ge able to go either way. Without comment on the obvious, which would you prefer?
I assume you’re talking about the same box making two different units i.e. Wraithguard and wraithblade, Infiltrators/incursors, Deathwing Command/TerminatorKnight squads - or all the titans, you just use different parts to make different units. So a Wolf Priest in Terminator Armor uses torso 12, white the Libby uses Torso 13 and the wolf lord uses torso 14?
Assuming I either get 5 Cryptek models or 1 Cryptek model with 5 heads and 5 arms, I'd prefer the 5 Cryptek models. I am not going to kitbash something like a Psychomancer or Chronomancer out of a Technomancer kit even if there is an arm and a head to differentiate them.
Making 5 unique kits is probably more difficult than 1 multi-purpose kit, which is a problem.
I have an unusually high tolerance for monopose models, but I still think some options in the kit would be good if a character like the Chronomancer is good enough to take 3.
If a character is monopose it should cost 15€ max., like GWs first plastic chars did. If it has options I'm okay with paying more, the Terminator Lord kit has enough options to improve the terrible Chaos Terminators kit (at least the old ones'... I guess the new Terminators are too big for his Bits?)
In response to torso 14 or torso 12 and so on, sure. I remember when I could call up the mail order trolls and get a single torso, to use some of that pile of bits accumulated with all of my other kits that came with so many options. Not sure why that had to go away... I guess it always comes down to money, though. Still, with 3d printers, GW might make a GW printer and release single-use codes to print out specific pieces effectively doing what the trolls used to do but maybe better... something that is possible, not probable...
tauist wrote: I want to build my own HQs. In a galaxy of untold number of worlds, there's way too many Marneus Calgars running down the battlefields.
Kitbashing is one of the best things about plastic models, exploit to the max I say!
There are a couple overlapping things here.
One is the no-model, no rules thing. Do the rules let me equip my primaris captain with a thunderhammer? So he can crush his foes upon the anvil of war like a good Salamander? Nope. He lost the ability to use one when he got promoted out of being an intercessor sergeant. This is normally tied to the kits available, but some legacy exceptions are caved out. And GW is fully capable of making flexible kits, as shown by the new Eldar Autarch that just released.
Some kits do let you make multiple units, and not just weapon swaps. The custodies boxes that let you make characters are a good example.
Of course, what is a marine character but a normal guy with extra bling? You can’t just pick up a powerfist/plasma pistol captain; he was an exclusive release, but supported with the rules. So I made one from the BGV kit, with extras from a number of sources (at least 3 different boxes)
Spoiler:
There were things about the kit that made it harder. I gave him a sword, which is purely ceremonial rules-wise. The way the kit was cut up, parts of it were integrated with the body, and would have required a bit of GS work to remove smoothly. But on the flip side, having set ways things go together gives you guys like the sarge standing next to him resting his hand on the pommel. That sort of interaction was something we almost never saw in older modular plastic kits, but had back with monopose metals.
Depends on what the result of 'more parts more customisation' actually is. Some models end up looking really janky with alternate build/weapons (Wulfen); while others don't look anything special at all (Dark Angel named Captain guy).
In response to torso 14 or torso 12 and so on, sure. I remember when I could call up the mail order trolls and get a single torso, to use some of that pile of bits accumulated with all of my other kits that came with so many options. Not sure why that had to go away... I guess it always comes down to money, though. Still, with 3d printers, GW might make a GW printer and release single-use codes to print out specific pieces effectively doing what the trolls used to do but maybe better... something that is possible, not probable...
I don't think GW is going to open the 3D Printing can of worms, and they're certainly not going to make their own. The hand flamer airbrush they tried is probably as far as they go. a 3D printer is several hundred, not $25 and some $10 cans of pressurized air. And if they don't make their own, there's not really a good way to make them single use only, nor would I buy a single use .stl file because prints are pretty easy to fail. But I could see a HQ box like Terminator Character Use This Torso and head for Chaplains, use this torso and hooded head for libbies, and this head for captains - that also feels like the direction they're heading with multiple units made by the same box which lets them stock several things with one spot on the shelf.
And I am waiting for the Aggressor Captain. They keep flirting with it. And look at the comments a lot of people want it. Two Boltstorm Gauntlet Captains will show up eventually if GW is sma... well they'll probably show up anyway.
GW got rid of the mail order service because it went from a small range to a massive range and the kits got more and more complex. It's not a feasible thing to expect the company to be able to have their entire component catalogue available to order.
I like when infantry box sets can be built as teo or three different data sheets (through weapon diffrences).
I like characters just being what they are, with maybe a choice of a couple of weapons.
Obviously more options is better, but the bigger but it's not always possible due to packaging restraints. (Character clampacks are max two small spruces, so bigger the model, less room for options for example).
More options are nice, but I'd rather smaller boxes which are cheaper than bigger boxes.
It depends. For already specialized characters such as rune priests, or any other psyker? Definitely one loadout and one role. Choosing powers and possibly pay for the master psyker upgrade is how you customize them.
Charactes like the army's commander can get more options instead, but it's not necessary. When I think about orks all warbosses and speedbosses are basically fixed (only option is a couple of weapons for the generic warboss) and I don't see any problem in that. They do have multiple datasheets though.
I think GW's ability to cut the sprues in creative ways, in order to accomodate good looking minis while having customizability, has improved considerably since I started buying minis. Having options should exclude good looking minis. I think the new DKoK plastics are a good example of this.
Blackie wrote: Choosing powers and possibly pay for the master psyker upgrade is how you customize them.
So no Force Sword/Axe/Rod?
Couldn't care less. Melee weapon, that's it. I've never cared about different profiles for marine power/force swords, axes, rods, maces and always wanted a single profile for all those options.
Weirdboy with no option in any codex has always worked perfectly with my orks.
Blackie wrote: Choosing powers and possibly pay for the master psyker upgrade is how you customize them.
So no Force Sword/Axe/Rod?
Couldn't care less. Melee weapon, that's it. I've never cared about different profiles for marine power/force swords, axes, rods, maces and always wanted a single profile for all those options.
Weirdboy with no option in any codex has always worked perfectly with my orks.
I'm for getting rid of Power Weapons on Captains in general and just sticking with Relic Blades to encompass them. Besides relics, nobody picks the Power Weapons (and even then they don't).
The gold standard for character customization to me is the Exalted Sorcerers kit. I know it's more expensive than a blister if you're just looking for one character, but $20/character is cheaper than they've sold character blisters for since before they started doing plastic characters, and they've got a huge variety of options up to and including an optional mount (you can put one of them on a Disc, or leave all three on foot, and the Disc-rider can be any of the three bodies). Just imagine how many options they could cram in if they said "right, we're doing a two-sprue Space Marine command kit, one Captain, one Librarian, one Chaplain, mix-and-match options as you like." (Though given their release priorities these days it'd probably be "Command kit: one Captain and two Lieutenants, support kit: one Chaplain, one Librarian, one Techmarine, and then do them all over again for Gravis and Phobos armor, just to put off having to release non-Primaris models further.")
As one who has been carting a bits box from continent to continent, with a memory for most every plasma pistol and now with magnets! I am a fan of customisability and at the same time a proud owner of a metal-capable hobby saw, not beyond hacking a mini to near death only to bring it back as something completely original, half plastic, half foldable epoxy or simple putty embalmed with super glue, half metal with some dust and with a few dog hairs mashed in there. As with previous posters, IFF single pose models were priced reasonably - and before some GW white knight jumps in to defend 30bucks for a single 28mm character model, this is NOT reasonable regardless of inflation and whatever else, as most people have not seen similar increases in wages but this is beside the point - then I would be more onboard hacking these dudes into the pieces that I want but for 30bucks, i would rather see the options baked in so to speak.
Note that I have not voted, and further that i do not buy the argument that it is not feasible for GW to employ mail order trolls to farm bits. trolls disappeared when a lot of other shady bs descended like a dark cloud from the north, or should i say south america, on GWHQ.
Oh and as for simple model weapon swaps, e.g. force sword v mace v chainsword v fist v... GW should be ashamed of itself, frankly, and I have zero empathy for the beast when 3d prints finally lops its head off. The selling point of the universe was that it was a clearinghouse for sci-fantasy tropes from every corner. GW is ceding ground here and soon enough another group with bigger nutz will be able to claim this role. Not to mention that the fanbase with such a background is also dwindling, as fewer young people read (Red Nails, anyone?). So, natch that the system is now basically a card game with plastic markers called models.
In the end, my hopes for humanity at large are emboldened with the results of this poll, and I am interested to see where things go.
Next up, should I order the Necromunda terrain set or not...? Thought about doing a poll for that one but might just wait for odd comments to this effect instead.
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AnomanderRake wrote: The gold standard for character customization to me is the Exalted Sorcerers kit. I know it's more expensive than a blister if you're just looking for one character, but $20/character is cheaper than they've sold character blisters for since before they started doing plastic characters, and they've got a huge variety of options up to and including an optional mount (you can put one of them on a Disc, or leave all three on foot, and the Disc-rider can be any of the three bodies). Just imagine how many options they could cram in if they said "right, we're doing a two-sprue Space Marine command kit, one Captain, one Librarian, one Chaplain, mix-and-match options as you like." (Though given their release priorities these days it'd probably be "Command kit: one Captain and two Lieutenants, support kit: one Chaplain, one Librarian, one Techmarine, and then do them all over again for Gravis and Phobos armor, just to put off having to release non-Primaris models further.")
Exactly mo, exalted. Though I am NOT the market for a restartes anything, ever, at all, IFF less than 55AUD (WTF???) then good on them for allowing people to customise their pricier than literal gold standard kits.
Gert, I spoilered my post above … I think that you are right to call me out on some negativity. I type for a living and type too much too quickly… not necessary.
But srsly Gert, I really like monopose metal models. Been itching for the nightlords boss and an inquisitor I don’t have for a while now, plus those Cultists for Blackstone Fortress have been in my Wayland cart along with this new Munda terrain… I am itching to pull the trigger on those.
So I do not hate GW… I wish the hobby were more accessible, as I remember what it was like to piece together an army when I was younger and even now 200euros for a box of toys is a bit of a bite from the budget…
But value, hobby value, I mean 55dollars for a single monopose mini… does anyone think that this is reasonable?
Blackie wrote: Choosing powers and possibly pay for the master psyker upgrade is how you customize them.
So no Force Sword/Axe/Rod?
Couldn't care less. Melee weapon, that's it. I've never cared about different profiles for marine power/force swords, axes, rods, maces and always wanted a single profile for all those options.
Weirdboy with no option in any codex has always worked perfectly with my orks.
For me, building and fielding my dudes with their special gear was a big part of the attraction to the hobby from the beginning.
jeff white wrote: So I do not hate GW… I wish the hobby were more accessible, as I remember what it was like to piece together an army when I was younger and even now 200euros for a box of toys is a bit of a bite from the budget…
But value, hobby value, I mean 55dollars for a single monopose mini… does anyone think that this is reasonable?
Everyone wants the hobby to be more accessible but pretending that individual 3d printing will kill off GW is laughable. As for prices, yeah they suck but which boxes and characters are you buying here chief? The only characters that are in the $55 US range are things like Guilliman, Abbadon, larger models, and Characters with retinues. The prices are higher than other companies but your arguments lose any legitimacy when you just make up numbers.
For me, building and fielding my dudes with their special gear was a big part of the attraction to the hobby from the beginning.
Yes, absolutely. As long as giving different gear has some real purpose. Choosing between +1S, -1AP or +1D on a melee weapon doesn't give any purpose to the model's customization. Psyker guy has to cast powers, that's his role. I don't really care if he can choose between multiple slightly different blades or maybe a more powerful pistol than his standard one. Same for a medic guy, etc...
A captain should be open to multiple loadouts instead as it's a much more versatile character by definition. Same for a Lt or any other second in command. For example I think it's a shame that the haemonculus, the coven captain, can't be customized anymore.
Blackie wrote: Couldn't care less. Melee weapon, that's it. I've never cared about different profiles for marine power/force swords, axes, rods, maces and always wanted a single profile for all those options.
Blackie wrote: Couldn't care less. Melee weapon, that's it. I've never cared about different profiles for marine power/force swords, axes, rods, maces and always wanted a single profile for all those options.
So not even the modelling option?
Well no, I'd love that. Multiple bitz to choose from are awesome if you want more than one copy of the same guy in order to avoid perfect duplicates which are boring to paint and to collect. I converted my 2nd weirdboyz for that reason, I didn't want two identical monopose models.
I'd just consider the modelling option the same as swapping heads though, like choosing between the helmet or a bare head.
Blackie wrote: Couldn't care less. Melee weapon, that's it. I've never cared about different profiles for marine power/force swords, axes, rods, maces and always wanted a single profile for all those options.
So not even the modelling option?
There are a bunch of options and problems with all of them.
If you just have a generic “force weapon” with one stat line you irritate all the people who want to make choices and have them have meaning. It simplifies/smooths/dumbs down the game and you loose flavor and detail. An axe should hit different than a staff. Advantage is that people can model what they want and not worry about rules changes and meta shifts turning their model into a sup par one with the trap choice.
You have different rules, but lock some in depending on the model. Phobos librarians always have force swords, but firstborn have a range of options. This is the no model, no rules thing that irritates many of us. Why can’t my guy have an axe? This bugs a lot of people as it stifles kitbashing and rubs against the fluff in bad ways. In theory it makes it less confusing for new players, as they don’t need try to figure out what the best/trap options are. Also potentially easier to balance the game as there are less moving parts.
You have different rules, and let people build what they want. There are still limited models, so you might have to hunt around/kitbash/print/3rd party the right bits. This is where the game was for most of its life, and a lot of legacy units still work this way. Pros are unlimited freedom. Cons can be finding the right parts. Not everyone can kitbash at the same level. 3rd party is not something GW likes. “Just include all the options in the kit” is unfeasible unless you want to watch the prices skyrocket on some things as they double the number of frames in the box. People would also end up with giant piles of unneeded parts in their bits boxes. Also some poses work better with some weapons than others. Not a huge deal for the librarian example, but things like captains and tac/dev squads have historically had tons of choice. And with all the options you can end up with broken combos that are harder to balance around.
Special Characters as separate kits don’t bother me.
But I don’t see the sense from any angle on doing multiple plastic kits for different loadouts for the same Codex Entry.
For instance, Primaris Lieutenants. Restrict their options within the Codex all you want (but preferably don’t!), but I just do not understand them all having separate plastic kits. That’s more expensive when it comes to tooling, and just seems daft.
As AnomanderRake said, do something like the Exalted Sorcerers kit, especially if like Lieutenants they’re likely to be models picked more than once in a given army list. It also necessitates a larger sprue, but one the bodies are out the way, loads of space for weapon options and that.
The upcoming Eldar kits have given some hope we’re emerging from those particular woods. But to be pessimistic (twice in one day, which is most unlike me) we can’t necessarily rule out right now that these are older things they’ve been sitting on for a while. And whilst I have nothing to back that up, we won’t know until eyes are on sprues and we can see the stamped date.
But I don’t see the sense from any angle on doing multiple plastic kits for different loadouts for the same Codex Entry.
For instance, Primaris Lieutenants. Restrict their options within the Codex all you want (but preferably don’t!), but I just do not understand them all having separate plastic kits. That’s more expensive when it comes to tooling, and just seems daft.
As AnomanderRake said, do something like the Exalted Sorcerers kit, especially if like Lieutenants they’re likely to be models picked more than once in a given army list. It also necessitates a larger sprue, but one the bodies are out the way, loads of space for weapon options and that.
The upcoming Eldar kits have given some hope we’re emerging from those particular woods. But to be pessimistic (twice in one day, which is most unlike me) we can’t necessarily rule out right now that these are older things they’ve been sitting on for a while. And whilst I have nothing to back that up, we won’t know until eyes are on sprues and we can see the stamped date.
Well even special characters should be like Calgar/Guilliman etc a couple different cosmetic options like helmet or bare headed etc.
I wouldn't mind an upgrade kit/sprue that has all the melee weapons, and the pistols etc for Captains/Lieutenants/Sergeants.
Gert wrote: Anyone ever tell you to go into stand up Sim?
Well if you only judge a models worth by if you "need" it then you don't really "need" any model. You could play the game with card board standees and some art.
Gert wrote: Anyone ever tell you to go into stand up Sim?
Well if you only judge a models worth by if you "need" it then you don't really "need" any model. You could play the game with card board standees and some art.
But I don’t see the sense from any angle on doing multiple plastic kits for different loadouts for the same Codex Entry.
For instance, Primaris Lieutenants. Restrict their options within the Codex all you want (but preferably don’t!), but I just do not understand them all having separate plastic kits. That’s more expensive when it comes to tooling, and just seems daft.
As AnomanderRake said, do something like the Exalted Sorcerers kit, especially if like Lieutenants they’re likely to be models picked more than once in a given army list. It also necessitates a larger sprue, but one the bodies are out the way, loads of space for weapon options and that.
The upcoming Eldar kits have given some hope we’re emerging from those particular woods. But to be pessimistic (twice in one day, which is most unlike me) we can’t necessarily rule out right now that these are older things they’ve been sitting on for a while. And whilst I have nothing to back that up, we won’t know until eyes are on sprues and we can see the stamped date.
Unfortunately GW is all over the place when it comes to character models. Adepta Sororitas got both the many-optioned Canoness character (US$35 for two small frames) and the minimal-optioned Palatine (US$35 for two small frame). Imagine what they could have done with the Palatine with a second frame of options! At least the minimal options given to the Primaris Ancient is because two different banners takes up all the frame space.
jeff white wrote: So I do not hate GW… I wish the hobby were more accessible, as I remember what it was like to piece together an army when I was younger and even now 200euros for a box of toys is a bit of a bite from the budget…
But value, hobby value, I mean 55dollars for a single monopose mini… does anyone think that this is reasonable?
Everyone wants the hobby to be more accessible but pretending that individual 3d printing will kill off GW is laughable. As for prices, yeah they suck but which boxes and characters are you buying here chief? The only characters that are in the $55 US range are things like Guilliman, Abbadon, larger models, and Characters with retinues. The prices are higher than other companies but your arguments lose any legitimacy when you just make up numbers.
That's $55 AUS which is about $39.15 US. You could tell this by a couple things - for example the URL for Games Workshop Australia.
3D Printing alone won't kill off GW, GW closing their brick and mortar with the attached playspace will do it just as much as 3D Printing. I print bits, but not full models. Without a place to play they'll lose customers - not everyone, especially the teenagers etc will have a place in the garage or bonus room to setup a table - and if you're making your own place to play the temptation to 3D print your own model for your own games will go up.
When I was able to frequent the local GW before the 'demic, play there was... limited. The tables were often full, and if not, one may have half a table. Terrain and so on were top notch, as the manager was a great dude who took care to put up nicely painted stuff, lots of it. I did what i could to support that store, bought a lot of paints and so on, some kits when I could have gotten all of these much cheaper online. It was a sort of magnet for local hobbyists, but iirc most just came through, bought a kit or more likely a pot of paint or two, and left to do their things at home or wherever. I guess nothing new here, everyone already understands the move in GW to single-manned shops with limited playspace, but I guess that those shops do is bring people together and this must be doing a lot of the work of keeping interest up. Employing stellar hobbyists like the guy who ran that shop (it was in Enschede, Netherlands, shout out to JP!) must make a difference for them, too. That said, when in university, I spent most of my time in the backroom of a pretty big hobby comics shop - table space was huge, 4x8 tables and a big line of them, games were various, and the place was really popular. During grad school, similar, though the tables had shrunk to 6x4 by then. Anyways, i envy people who have a place like these nearby, because as awesome as JP was, gameplay was less so in the GW shop.
But I don’t see the sense from any angle on doing multiple plastic kits for different loadouts for the same Codex Entry.
For instance, Primaris Lieutenants. Restrict their options within the Codex all you want (but preferably don’t!), but I just do not understand them all having separate plastic kits. That’s more expensive when it comes to tooling, and just seems daft.
As AnomanderRake said, do something like the Exalted Sorcerers kit, especially if like Lieutenants they’re likely to be models picked more than once in a given army list. It also necessitates a larger sprue, but one the bodies are out the way, loads of space for weapon options and that.
The upcoming Eldar kits have given some hope we’re emerging from those particular woods. But to be pessimistic (twice in one day, which is most unlike me) we can’t necessarily rule out right now that these are older things they’ve been sitting on for a while. And whilst I have nothing to back that up, we won’t know until eyes are on sprues and we can see the stamped date.
Unfortunately GW is all over the place when it comes to character models. Adepta Sororitas got both the many-optioned Canoness character (US$35 for two small frames) and the minimal-optioned Palatine (US$35 for two small frame). Imagine what they could have done with the Palatine with a second frame of options! At least the minimal options given to the Primaris Ancient is because two different banners takes up all the frame space.
Out of curiosity does the new Sisters line habe interchangeable parts with every other plastic model in the line like older Space Marines or Imperial Guard plastics?
But I don’t see the sense from any angle on doing multiple plastic kits for different loadouts for the same Codex Entry.
For instance, Primaris Lieutenants. Restrict their options within the Codex all you want (but preferably don’t!), but I just do not understand them all having separate plastic kits. That’s more expensive when it comes to tooling, and just seems daft.
As AnomanderRake said, do something like the Exalted Sorcerers kit, especially if like Lieutenants they’re likely to be models picked more than once in a given army list. It also necessitates a larger sprue, but one the bodies are out the way, loads of space for weapon options and that.
The upcoming Eldar kits have given some hope we’re emerging from those particular woods. But to be pessimistic (twice in one day, which is most unlike me) we can’t necessarily rule out right now that these are older things they’ve been sitting on for a while. And whilst I have nothing to back that up, we won’t know until eyes are on sprues and we can see the stamped date.
Unfortunately GW is all over the place when it comes to character models. Adepta Sororitas got both the many-optioned Canoness character (US$35 for two small frames) and the minimal-optioned Palatine (US$35 for two small frame). Imagine what they could have done with the Palatine with a second frame of options! At least the minimal options given to the Primaris Ancient is because two different banners takes up all the frame space.
Out of curiosity does the new Sisters line habe interchangeable parts with every other plastic model in the line like older Space Marines or Imperial Guard plastics?
All parts are interchangeable when hobby knives, glue, & (maybe) some green stuff is involved.
There is limited built-in compatibility between the Sisters Kits. The Battle Sister and Retritbutor kits are made to work together, especially the Sister Superior bits. 99% of the heads have the same join mechanism, or can be easily adjusted to fit on other models. The amount of conversion work needed to get a pistol arm from the Seraphim kit to work on some other bodies is minimal.
That being said, most bodies are designed to be built 2-3 ways with very specific bits that do not have instructions for use on other bodies.
alextroy wrote: There is limited built-in compatibility between the Sisters Kits. The Battle Sister and Retritbutor kits are made to work together, especially the Sister Superior bits. 99% of the heads have the same join mechanism, or can be easily adjusted to fit on other models. The amount of conversion work needed to get a pistol arm from the Seraphim kit to work on some other bodies is minimal.
That being said, most bodies are designed to be built 2-3 ways with very specific bits that do not have instructions for use on other bodies.
That seems to be the way GW is going - this torso has a partial arm to the elbow on the right side, that one has it on the left side, etc. - the customization of the old kits was much better with 5 sets of interchangable legs, two halves of a no arm torso, a head, and two + optional arms.
alextroy wrote: There is limited built-in compatibility between the Sisters Kits. The Battle Sister and Retritbutor kits are made to work together, especially the Sister Superior bits. 99% of the heads have the same join mechanism, or can be easily adjusted to fit on other models. The amount of conversion work needed to get a pistol arm from the Seraphim kit to work on some other bodies is minimal.
That being said, most bodies are designed to be built 2-3 ways with very specific bits that do not have instructions for use on other bodies.
That seems to be the way GW is going - this torso has a partial arm to the elbow on the right side, that one has it on the left side, etc. - the customization of the old kits was much better with 5 sets of interchangable legs, two halves of a no arm torso, a head, and two + optional arms.
For most rank and file it isn't too bad, as even a simple head angle/positioning alters how everyone looks in a squad to be more dynamic. For things like Plague Marines it simply doesn't work though as everyone is TOO unique.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I wonder if the new Chosen stuff works with the new CSM kit...
Don't worry. It does.
Like the CSM kit, each set of body-and-legs goes together in only one way (although the champion gets to choose from 2 chest-plates and 2 loincloths). But the arms, heads and backpacks are all interchangeable both with each other and with the CSM kit.
Sorry late on the reply, here... CSS reflects my experience, exactly, as I had a couple of boxes and had to finagle and use some putty that I had to use to mould into gaps and then which I embalmed with super glue to make rock-ish. Where not easily rectified, I shaved bits of sprue into purity seal-ish ribbons and used the putty to make wax stamps to cover over gaps. Stuff like that... worked for me, but I like doing things like that. Actually, I don't mind plastics basically monopose with weapon number 36 on the sprue fitting only torso assembly 8 or whatever, as I get a chance to use old skills honed on metal models from long ago, and cutting plastic models into pieces is easier than cutting metal models into pieces. After the cutting up, though, this is when the old tricks come into play...
But I don’t see the sense from any angle on doing multiple plastic kits for different loadouts for the same Codex Entry.
For instance, Primaris Lieutenants. Restrict their options within the Codex all you want (but preferably don’t!), but I just do not understand them all having separate plastic kits. That’s more expensive when it comes to tooling, and just seems daft.
As AnomanderRake said, do something like the Exalted Sorcerers kit, especially if like Lieutenants they’re likely to be models picked more than once in a given army list. It also necessitates a larger sprue, but one the bodies are out the way, loads of space for weapon options and that.
The upcoming Eldar kits have given some hope we’re emerging from those particular woods. But to be pessimistic (twice in one day, which is most unlike me) we can’t necessarily rule out right now that these are older things they’ve been sitting on for a while. And whilst I have nothing to back that up, we won’t know until eyes are on sprues and we can see the stamped date.
Unfortunately GW is all over the place when it comes to character models. Adepta Sororitas got both the many-optioned Canoness character (US$35 for two small frames) and the minimal-optioned Palatine (US$35 for two small frame). Imagine what they could have done with the Palatine with a second frame of options! At least the minimal options given to the Primaris Ancient is because two different banners takes up all the frame space.
Out of curiosity does the new Sisters line habe interchangeable parts with every other plastic model in the line like older Space Marines or Imperial Guard plastics?
All parts are interchangeable when hobby knives, glue, & (maybe) some green stuff is involved.
I just got the new Boyz and that kit really made me think they must have had something else in mind for that one instead of selling it for full price let alone having it replace the old Boyz(thankfully they didn't) which are just superior in every way. These new Boyz work like Easy to build models or like Space Marine Heroes, you even have pre arranged holes in the Bases where they have to go. It's a strange set and I don't know why you ever would want two of them. It should be sold like these monopose sets for beginners in old times, where you only glued arms and heads but got 4 models for 8€ or even less .
Yeah the SoB are limited. No legacy boxes to pull from. I have lots of imperial bits and was able to make use of some to add bling but…. There is no getting around having to assemble and cut a bit for conversions unless one is content with two models looking more or less identical if one wants more than ten models of a certain type, five in the case of heavys.
Ironically I kind of want the troops to be similar. I usually build up two boxes at time or so and make the non-leaders similar but not in the same squad or half of squad. I may or may not do the same thing with the Sergeants/leaders. It depends on how “expensive” or elite the unit is.
Yeah, I didn’t mind the SoB kits for one cuz I enjoy the modeling and converting aspect and for another cuz the models are really good, so smallish tweaks plus making scenic bases to change orientations and add differences that way was also fun.
It's a problem of kit interchangeability and waste.
Looking at the Cadian Guard range every body, head, arms and legs from every kit can be used with any other. So after building each kit as instructed you can then convert other kits simply by mixing up the bits and knowing no matter what combo you come up with will fit together. So whilst each box may only cover one specific role, they are actually available for a lot of customisation.
Contrast this with the Scions. One sprue that covers every possible Scion build. Fantastic for variety out of the box but the waste is incredible. If you build 5 standard Scions from the sprue it is left so full of bits I've mistaken them for unused sprues before. So rather then cross kiting to get variety you just have to buy repeats of the same sprue and are left with piles of left over bits. GW really need to a simple body, legs and head Scion sprue.
So based on the poll I like a kit to represent one thing but for that one thing to be easily cross kitted with others from the same range.
Jidmah wrote: I feel like I can't answer this question without taking money into account.
Depending on the unit and models I prefer to not pay $15 "customization tax", while for others I would gladly pay it.
Though with GWs course you're likely to pay more for less customization, see old and new Boyz, old and new CSM. If you take Plague Marines you have the choice of cheap monoposes, expensive monoposes and moderate customizable models
I mean there was some loss and some gain.
The Icons went from banners to backpack add-ons losing the God-specific gubbins and the Champion lost the God-specific helmets/shoulders.
That being said, the unit now comes with all the Special Weapon options, two Heavy weapons and is completely compatible with the Havocs kit for other choices. The old Champion had the choice of Chainsword, Power Sword, and Power Fist whereas the new kit swapped the Power Sword for an Axe and added the Power Maul.
Would I have preferred to see the God-specific gubbins stay for the Champion? Sure but the kit is much better than the old one IMO even with certain limitations.
I mean there was some loss and some gain.
The Icons went from banners to backpack add-ons losing the God-specific gubbins and the Champion lost the God-specific helmets/shoulders.
That being said, the unit now comes with all the Special Weapon options, two Heavy weapons and is completely compatible with the Havocs kit for other choices. The old Champion had the choice of Chainsword, Power Sword, and Power Fist whereas the new kit swapped the Power Sword for an Axe and added the Power Maul.
Would I have preferred to see the God-specific gubbins stay for the Champion? Sure but the kit is much better than the old one IMO even with certain limitations.
Don't forget that you lost the option to equip the whole squad with its base weapons, i. e. pistol + Chainsword or bolters for everyone.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Don't forget that you lost the option to equip the whole squad with its base weapons, i. e. pistol + Chainsword or bolters for everyone.
Something I never did so it doesn't bother me, a position I would believe is not uncommon.
In fact, the only place I've seen it bemoaned is on Dakka which is hardly a surprise.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Don't forget that you lost the option to equip the whole squad with its base weapons, i. e. pistol + Chainsword or bolters for everyone.
Something I never did so it doesn't bother me, a position I would believe is not uncommon.
In fact, the only place I've seen it bemoaned is on Dakka which is hardly a surprise.
The standard equipment for a CSM squad is either 7 Bolter guys, 2 special/ heavy weapons, Sgt. with Combi, or you go CC with 9 Chainsword guys + Sgt. With special weapon, + Icon. Or you go MSU. MSU still works a little, you can make a CC squad + flamer + Sgt. And a shooty squad out of the Box. But a useful loadout for the whole ten is not possible anymore (note I'm not talking competitive here, I couldn't care less about what's meta, but even as a casual player you know there's no use in putting 3 CC guys into your objective Holding ranged squad). It's only possible if you play without wysiwyg.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Don't forget that you lost the option to equip the whole squad with its base weapons, i. e. pistol + Chainsword or bolters for everyone.
Something I never did so it doesn't bother me, a position I would believe is not uncommon.
In fact, the only place I've seen it bemoaned is on Dakka which is hardly a surprise.
Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's not a problem. I never used any of the "God-specific gubbins", but I still think they should be available for those that did.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: The standard equipment for a CSM squad is either 7 Bolter guys, 2 special/ heavy weapons, Sgt. with Combi, or you go CC with 9 Chainsword guys + Sgt. With special weapon, + Icon. Or you go MSU. MSU still works a little, you can make a CC squad + flamer + Sgt. And a shooty squad out of the Box. But a useful loadout for the whole ten is not possible anymore (note I'm not talking competitive here, I couldn't care less about what's meta, but even as a casual player you know there's no use in putting 3 CC guys into your objective Holding ranged squad). It's only possible if you play without wysiwyg.
Oh no I have to take weapons that make the squad better, what a tragedy.
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Gadzilla666 wrote: Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's not a problem. I never used any of the "God-specific gubbins", but I still think they should be available for those that did.
It is the definition of "not my problem" actually. And I didn't say the removal of the God-specific gubbins was a good thing, in fact, I specifically said I would have preferred they stayed.
It's hilarious to me that this is still something that gets whined about so bloody often. The new Ork Boyz? Absolutely. You don't get enough equipment to give the unit the basic squad size of the same equipment. The CSM? No, I disagree that this should still be such a point of contention.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's not a problem. I never used any of the "God-specific gubbins", but I still think they should be available for those that did.
It is the definition of "not my problem" actually. And I didn't say the removal of the God-specific gubbins was a good thing, in fact, I specifically said I would have preferred they stayed.
It's hilarious to me that this is still something that gets whined about so bloody often. The new Ork Boyz? Absolutely. You don't get enough equipment to give the unit the basic squad size of the same equipment. The CSM? No, I disagree that this should still be such a point of contention.
That was my point: just because it isn't "you're problem" doesn't mean it isn't a problem for someone else, in the same way that there not being any God-specific gubbins isn't "my problem". The kit should have as many options as possible to satisfy the various needs of as many people as possible. Not just you and me, especially since we wouldn't even agree on what should be in it.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The kit should have as many options as possible to satisfy the various needs of as many people as possible.
And yet it does. The only people this kit doesn't explicitly cater to are the people who don't want anything but barebones no upgrades units. Do you fit this description? How many players do you know that fit this description? Have you ever encountered a real-life person who has stated that they hate the newer CSM because you have to take Special/Heavy weapons in units larger than 5? Is this a massive non-issue but because people don't in fact run barebones units in any large capacity?
We could argue about hypothetical people and their hypothetical problems until the stars go cold and the universe collapses in on itself. But what is the point?
For me, makes sense because making my dudes my way is a big part of the attraction of the hobby. If I wanted all standard strategem mediated plastic tokens to abstractly represent whatever a card tells me will happen next, I would collect Tarot or play board games more seriously. But that sort of casual abstraction as if real things on realistic terrain with realistic rules do not matter, however “competitive” people wanna make it, just is not the same…
The poll does not make GW pricing explicit, though there is no reason that a customizable kit with extra gubbinz should come out all that much more expensive than the new mono pose standard.
Gadzilla666 wrote: That was my point: just because it isn't "you're problem" doesn't mean it isn't a problem for someone else, in the same way that there not being any God-specific gubbins isn't "my problem". The kit should have as many options as possible to satisfy the various needs of as many people as possible. Not just you and me, especially since we wouldn't even agree on what should be in it.
"Don't care. Got mine!" is a terrible attitude to have. Completely unsurprising that we're seeing it in this thread.
Gadzilla666 wrote: That was my point: just because it isn't "you're problem" doesn't mean it isn't a problem for someone else, in the same way that there not being any God-specific gubbins isn't "my problem". The kit should have as many options as possible to satisfy the various needs of as many people as possible. Not just you and me, especially since we wouldn't even agree on what should be in it.
"Don't care. Got mine!" is a terrible attitude to have. Completely unsurprising that we're seeing it in this thread.
Unsurprising but.....disappointing. Especially since with the way gw has been writing rules lately, if the option isn't in the kit, it just might not be on the datasheet.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: The standard equipment for a CSM squad is either 7 Bolter guys, 2 special/ heavy weapons, Sgt. with Combi, or you go CC with 9 Chainsword guys + Sgt. With special weapon, + Icon. Or you go MSU. MSU still works a little, you can make a CC squad + flamer + Sgt. And a shooty squad out of the Box. But a useful loadout for the whole ten is not possible anymore (note I'm not talking competitive here, I couldn't care less about what's meta, but even as a casual player you know there's no use in putting 3 CC guys into your objective Holding ranged squad). It's only possible if you play without wysiwyg.
Oh no I have to take weapons that make the squad better, what a tragedy.
that wasn't their point. Their point was there weren't ENOUGH weapons in the box for the datasheet.
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Gadzilla666 wrote: Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's not a problem. I never used any of the "God-specific gubbins", but I still think they should be available for those that did.
It is the definition of "not my problem" actually. And I didn't say the removal of the God-specific gubbins was a good thing, in fact, I specifically said I would have preferred they stayed.
It's hilarious to me that this is still something that gets whined about so bloody often. The new Ork Boyz? Absolutely. You don't get enough equipment to give the unit the basic squad size of the same equipment. The CSM? No, I disagree that this should still be such a point of contention.
And again he said "not a problem" not "not a problem FOR YOU" (Emphasis mine). If you're going to argue dishonestly, you should learn to do it better.
Quasistellar wrote: I suspect there's a LOT of people clicking option two without actually reading what the poll really means.
It's not even remotely possible that kit customizability could be really, really popular?
Having just gotten a 3D Printer and started doing the "check out the files online" thing I'm shocked kits with more bits are popular, as I download Ravenwing bits for Primaris Bikes, Chapter Specific tank doors, Magna-bits for Gladiator Tanks, and such. Well, not really.
The only people this kit doesn't explicitly cater to are the people who don't want anything but barebones no upgrades units. Do you fit this description? How many players do you know that fit this description? Have you ever encountered a real-life person who has stated that they hate the newer CSM because you have to take Special/Heavy weapons in units larger than 5? Is this a massive non-issue but because people don't in fact run barebones units in any large capacity?
Not one of you has answered these questions.
It's actually pathetic that this has turned into a bloody dogpile because I don't agree with your whinging.
And again he said "not a problem" not "not a problem FOR YOU" (Emphasis mine). If you're going to argue dishonestly, you should learn to do it better.
This whole discussion about the CSM box has been in bad faith with people using hypothetical fringe cases as reasoning for their arguments. Gad didn't even reply to what I wrote here:
Spoiler:
Gert wrote: And yet it does. The only people this kit doesn't explicitly cater to are the people who don't want anything but barebones no upgrades units. Do you fit this description? How many players do you know that fit this description? Have you ever encountered a real-life person who has stated that they hate the newer CSM because you have to take Special/Heavy weapons in units larger than 5? Is this a massive non-issue but because people don't in fact run barebones units in any large capacity?
We could argue about hypothetical people and their hypothetical problems until the stars go cold and the universe collapses in on itself. But what is the point?
And I suspect that it's because they don't actually have a reply. This whole discussion is a joke to me because it's such a non-issue for everyone apart from one very specific instance and still three years post-release it gets pages of whinging.
I never replied to you because I don't have any interest in wasting my time. Because you're right, I could argue about this with you until the eventual heat death of the universe and not get anywhere, because I know you well enough to know you won't budge in your opinion, and neither will I. But you want a reply? Fine:
Yes, it is a problem that you can't build a full bolter or chainsword squad from the kit because that's what some people want. It doesn't matter if it's what you want, or if it's what I want, because we aren't everyone. You can't measure the kits quality by our opinions alone, because we aren't the arbitrators of "what's good enough" for everyone else.
But since you only understand "me problems", then consider this: the kit contains no combi-weapons for the Aspiring Champion. None. And that has been an option for our Champions for ages. And as I mentioned up thread, if the option isn't in the kit, it just might not be in the datasheet with GW's current methods for writing rules. And that's definitely a problem for me, and a lot of other people who equipped their Aspiring Champions with combi-weapons to add more firepower to the squad. You need to look at these things for how they could affect the unit later down the line, instead of just arguing for arguments sake.
There are 7 Chainswords in the kit, right? So you can go 7 CC guys + CC Champion and then the last two will have to carry two special weapons that will only make your squad more expensive and worse in CC than you'd want in a specialized squad. I'll give you that a flamer and a melta aren't bad weapons in a squad that wants to get close per se but with how 40K works they're unlikely to be what you want in a CC squad.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: The standard equipment for a CSM squad is either 7 Bolter guys, 2 special/ heavy weapons, Sgt. with Combi, or you go CC with 9 Chainsword guys + Sgt. With special weapon, + Icon. Or you go MSU. MSU still works a little, you can make a CC squad + flamer + Sgt. And a shooty squad out of the Box. But a useful loadout for the whole ten is not possible anymore (note I'm not talking competitive here, I couldn't care less about what's meta, but even as a casual player you know there's no use in putting 3 CC guys into your objective Holding ranged squad). It's only possible if you play without wysiwyg.
Oh no I have to take weapons that make the squad better, what a tragedy.
that wasn't their point. Their point was there weren't ENOUGH weapons in the box for the datasheet.
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Gadzilla666 wrote: Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's not a problem. I never used any of the "God-specific gubbins", but I still think they should be available for those that did.
It is the definition of "not my problem" actually. And I didn't say the removal of the God-specific gubbins was a good thing, in fact, I specifically said I would have preferred they stayed.
It's hilarious to me that this is still something that gets whined about so bloody often. The new Ork Boyz? Absolutely. You don't get enough equipment to give the unit the basic squad size of the same equipment. The CSM? No, I disagree that this should still be such a point of contention.
And again he said "not a problem" not "not a problem FOR YOU" (Emphasis mine). If you're going to argue dishonestly, you should learn to do it better.
Quasistellar wrote: I suspect there's a LOT of people clicking option two without actually reading what the poll really means.
It's not even remotely possible that kit customizability could be really, really popular?
Having just gotten a 3D Printer and started doing the "check out the files online" thing I'm shocked kits with more bits are popular, as I download Ravenwing bits for Primaris Bikes, Chapter Specific tank doors, Magna-bits for Gladiator Tanks, and such.
Kanluwen wrote:As usual, bad poll from OP is bad poll.
Should be:
"do you want characters", not the generalist trash you always do to skew results.
Anyways, the answer is: it depends.
We don't need a Calgar with a bajillion parts...but a generic Captain? Could be nice.
Also:
more bespoke profiles for the various armies would be nice.
AnomanderRake wrote:
Quasistellar wrote: I suspect there's a LOT of people clicking option two without actually reading what the poll really means.
It's not even remotely possible that kit customizability could be really, really popular?
Case in point. I'd agree with anomander if that's what the poll actually said, but it isn't.
I ignore that ‘naut’s posts so only see them quoted in another’s… generalist trash ? Yeah, ok… it is a simple poll and general, yes, open for discussion. As for quasistellar, I cannot make sense of the retort. Tried… dumbfounded. Rake seems to have hit a nail on the head, though. That much I can see and exalted.
And again he said "not a problem" not "not a problem FOR YOU" (Emphasis mine). If you're going to argue dishonestly, you should learn to do it better.
This whole discussion about the CSM box has been in bad faith with people using hypothetical fringe cases as reasoning for their arguments. Gad didn't even reply to what I wrote here:
Gert wrote: And yet it does. The only people this kit doesn't explicitly cater to are the people who don't want anything but barebones no upgrades units. Do you fit this description? How many players do you know that fit this description? Have you ever encountered a real-life person who has stated that they hate the newer CSM because you have to take Special/Heavy weapons in units larger than 5? Is this a massive non-issue but because people don't in fact run barebones units in any large capacity?
We could argue about hypothetical people and their hypothetical problems until the stars go cold and the universe collapses in on itself. But what is the point?
And I suspect that it's because they don't actually have a reply. This whole discussion is a joke to me because it's such a non-issue for everyone apart from one very specific instance and still three years post-release it gets pages of whinging.
I never replied to you because I don't have any interest in wasting my time. Because you're right, I could argue about this with you until the eventual heat death of the universe and not get anywhere, because I know you well enough to know you won't budge in your opinion, and neither will I. But you want a reply? Fine:
Yes, it is a problem that you can't build a full bolter or chainsword squad from the kit because that's what some people want. It doesn't matter if it's what you want, or if it's what I want, because we aren't everyone. You can't measure the kits quality by our opinions alone, because we aren't the arbitrators of "what's good enough" for everyone else.
But since you only understand "me problems", then consider this: the kit contains no combi-weapons for the Aspiring Champion. None. And that has been an option for our Champions for ages. And as I mentioned up thread, if the option isn't in the kit, it just might not be in the datasheet with GW's current methods for writing rules. And that's definitely a problem for me, and a lot of other people who equipped their Aspiring Champions with combi-weapons to add more firepower to the squad. You need to look at these things for how they could affect the unit later down the line,
The CSM kit has three pretty densely packed sprues. So what do people think should have been removed to make space for the 3 extra chainsword arms, 3 extra bolt pistol arms and 2 extra pairs of boltgun arms you all seem to want?
Two boxes of CSM will let you build 10 with bolters and 10 with bolt pistol and chainsword anyway.
The new Chosen kit will usually also give you some spare boltguns, bolt pistols and/or chainswords, depending on how you kit out your actual Chosen squads (and whether you use some of the Chosen models as alternate Aspiring Champions). And then there's all the spare bolt pistols and chainswords you get in the Raptors kit if you assemble them as Warp Talons.
So, for there to be an actual problem, you have to be wanting to field a whole load of barebones CSM squads, all with the same barebones loadout (i.e. everyone with bolters or everyone with bp/cs), and no Chosen, and no Warp Talons. In any other circumstances, the fact there aren't ten of everything in the CSM kit isn't going to be an issue.
I know Gert's been a bit obnoxious about it, but he's actually right.
Duskweaver wrote: The CSM kit has three pretty densely packed sprues. So what do people think should have been removed to make space for the 3 extra chainsword arms, 3 extra bolt pistol arms and 2 extra pairs of boltgun arms you all seem to want?
They're not that densley packed, especially the part of the sprue with all the shoulder pads. Could've saved a fair bit of room there.
Duskweaver wrote: Two boxes of CSM will let you build 10 with bolters and 10 with bolt pistol and chainsword anyway.
Which is great and all, but we're living in a world where GW re-writes options to only account for one box. Now, to be fair, that hasn't impacted core troops units yet (to my knowledge), but can you imagine if they did? If the squad was limited to only the amount of BP/CS or Bolters on the sprue?
Emagine that expanded further, with the new Ork Boyz kit, and only letting Ork units take 3 Shootas out of every 10 models? It's that kind of thing we want to avoid, and why full suites of options make this less likely.
It continues to baffle me that there are people out there who genuinely think that fewer options and less customisability is a good thing, the goal, the desired result. Completely mystifying.
I've taken out some of the more insulting bits of my posts but I don't see how I was being obnoxious considering the point I was making was almost exactly the same as yours Duskweaver.
The issue with the CSM kit is only an issue if you buy exactly one box and never buy any other CSM, hell even any SM kit, ever again. Bolters, Bolt Pistols, and Chainswords are some of the most common weapons for any sort of 40k army not just the many different flavours of SM. It is harder to not have boat loads of spares of those weapons than it is to have none.
Gert wrote: I've taken out some of the more insulting bits of my posts but I don't see how I was being obnoxious
Does anyone else want to jump on the train while we're at it or do we want to stop the harassment now?
Hmm.
The issue with the CSM kit is only an issue
if you don't do things the way I think they should be done. A patrol is what 1HQ and 2 Troop minimum for a 500-point game? So, one Chaos Lord and Two CSM kits. So, you bought another CSM kit, now you have enough... oh wait.
Gert wrote: I've taken out some of the more insulting bits of my posts but I don't see how I was being obnoxious
Does anyone else want to jump on the train while we're at it or do we want to stop the harassment now?
Hmm.
The issue with the CSM kit is only an issue
if you don't do things the way I think they should be done. A patrol is what 1HQ and 2 Troop minimum for a 500-point game? So, one Chaos Lord and Two CSM kits. So, you bought another CSM kit, now you have enough... oh wait.
And if you want both squads to be all Bolters, or all Pistols/Chainswords? Say, you want to spare the points for an Obliterator or something.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Surely the ability to not take an option is an option all to itself?
SSSHH! Not so loud! If GW hears that not taking an option is an option, they'll realize they can charge us for the options we aren't taking because they're no longer on the sprues or in the codices and do another price hike!
Do you not agree starting a dog pile because you don't like what someone says is harassment? Because I do.
if you don't do things the way I think they should be done. A patrol is what 1HQ and 2 Troop minimum for a 500-point game? So, one Chaos Lord and Two CSM kits. So, you bought another CSM kit, now you have enough... oh wait.
Actually its 1 and 1. Still missing my point entirely for some reason.
Do you not agree starting a dog pile because you don't like what someone says is harassment? Because I do.
All I see is a bunch of people agreeing with each other that your stance is wrong. That's not dogpiling, that's just consensus.
Add me to that group. CSM in particular seem to have been screwed over more than most with this type of thing - see the Terminator kit for another example of a unit unable to field a full unit with the basic loadout from a single box. It should be the starting point for all kits, especially the basic Troops kit form the faction, that you can field all models from the kit using the basic loadout. The firstborn SM kits for Tacticals, Assault and Sternguard all have this option. They also have a whole host of options on top of that. The devastator kit even has a random lightning claw for the sarge. All the DE Troops can do this too. It really isn't like CSM players are asking for something out of the ordinary here so your insistence that it's all fine is kinda weird. That's especially true when coupled with GW's recent trend of using the sprue itself to define the options for a standard squad.
Off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of boxes for Troops choices where you can't build a squad with just the basic equipment for each trooper, and that's the CSM and the new Ork Boyz. Can't remember on Plague Marines, and CSM Cultists currently only have a sprue repurposed from a board game available, so we'll revisit those once they have a dedicated kit.
As Slipspace said, being able to built your Troops with their basic loadout should be a minimum requirement for such a kit, and has generally been treated as such, which is why it gets called out when it doesn't happen with a newer kit.
H.B.M.C. wrote:They're not that densley packed, especially the part of the sprue with all the shoulder pads. Could've saved a fair bit of room there.
OK, so you should be able to explain how you could fit an extra 10 arms on the sprues without removing anything, then. 3 Bolt pistol arms, 3 chainsword arms, 2 pairs of boltgun arms. Show us where you'd fit them in.
Which is great and all, but we're living in a world where GW re-writes options to only account for one box. Now, to be fair, that hasn't impacted core troops units yet (to my knowledge), but can you imagine if they did? If the squad was limited to only the amount of BP/CS or Bolters on the sprue?
Oh, I can imagine all kinds of things. I do not, however, think it is at all likely that GW are going to change the CSM datasheet to say "only up to 7 models can each replace their boltgun with a chainsword" or "2 models must replace their boltgun with a special/heavy weapon".
The hypothetical prospect of a bad thing perhaps happening in the future is not evidence that something is bad right now.
Emagine that expanded further, with the new Ork Boyz kit, and only letting Ork units take 3 Shootas out of every 10 models? It's that kind of thing we want to avoid, and why full suites of options make this less likely.
Extending your slippery slope further into the realms of phantasy does not make it a stronger argument.
Also, the "new Ork Boyz kit" is a monopose ETB kit akin to the Shadowspear CSM sprue and with a similarly mixed loadout. The "old" kit with all the options is still being sold. Your suggestion would be like GW changing the CSM datasheet to make every squad have a plasma gun and an autocannon because that's what the Shadowspear squad has, and equally unlikely.
It continues to baffle me that there are people out there who genuinely think that fewer options and less customisability is a good thing, the goal, the desired result. Completely mystifying.
Maybe some people think that? Perhaps? I don't think anybody is arguing that position in this thread, though.
More options and customisability are good in general. But the CSM kit is fine as it is, and I would not be willing to pay more to have an extra sprue in the box just to have 10 extra arms to toss into my bits box. And I don't think you could fit those 10 arms on the existing sprues without taking something else out.
Gert wrote:I've taken out some of the more insulting bits of my posts but I don't see how I was being obnoxious considering the point I was making was almost exactly the same as yours Duskweaver.
Well, I didn't call people "muppets", or accuse them of "whining" and "whinging" and "arguing in bad faith". Nor did I characterise multiple people disagreeing with me at the same time as "harassment".
At the end of the day, when I see someone with wrong opinions making bad arguments, I tend to assume they believe what they're saying (even if it seems obviously wrong to me) and that they are trying to engage in good faith and are just making the same sorts of logical errors we all tend to make when we're trying to defend a position we believe in.
You, however, often (not just in this thread) give the impression that you think anyone who disagrees with you is a malevolent troll who doesn't really believe the things they're saying and is using bad arguments deliberately in order to annoy you personally.
I feel like there should be one of those dumb Giancarlo Esposito "we are not the same" memes here...
Dysartes wrote: Off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of boxes for Troops choices where you can't build a squad with just the basic equipment for each trooper, and that's the CSM and the new Ork Boyz. Can't remember on Plague Marines, and CSM Cultists currently only have a sprue repurposed from a board game available, so we'll revisit those once they have a dedicated kit.
As Slipspace said, being able to built your Troops with their basic loadout should be a minimum requirement for such a kit, and has generally been treated as such, which is why it gets called out when it doesn't happen with a newer kit.
They changed Plague Marines in 9th to only Bolters + 1knife as basic equipment. In 8th it was possible to go two knives or bubonic axes as basic equipment for all, but the kit only gives you 1 Marine with two knives and two other marines with axes, so they changed it to the abomination of a datasheet we have today.
Slipspace wrote: All I see is a bunch of people agreeing with each other that your stance is wrong. That's not dogpiling, that's just consensus.
Those same people who just ignore half of what I've written to pick out sentences that they can use to support their argument? Or the people who have had posts edited or removed because they can't be civil?
Add me to that group. CSM in particular seem to have been screwed over more than most with this type of thing - see the Terminator kit for another example of a unit unable to field a full unit with the basic loadout from a single box. It should be the starting point for all kits, especially the basic Troops kit form the faction, that you can field all models from the kit using the basic loadout. The firstborn SM kits for Tacticals, Assault and Sternguard all have this option. They also have a whole host of options on top of that. The devastator kit even has a random lightning claw for the sarge. All the DE Troops can do this too. It really isn't like CSM players are asking for something out of the ordinary here so your insistence that it's all fine is kinda weird. That's especially true when coupled with GW's recent trend of using the sprue itself to define the options for a standard squad.
*sigh* Did you actually read what I wrote or are you just ignoring it because it doesn't suit your argument? Are we just going to treat all hypotheticals as reality now?
By my reckoning CSM players will fall into the following categories:
VotLW - This player has been with CSM for ages and is highly likely to have a metric tonne of spare gubbins and bitz with which to customise their models. The fact that the newer kit doesn't have 10 Bolters/Swords/Pistols doesn't bother them because they have these in the hundreds already as spares from other kits.
New Start - This player has just started CSM and likely bought the SC box which comes with the "ETB" kits which are mixed equipment. If they buy a normal CSM kit then they might well just use it to expand upon the models they already have. There is also a high chance that they want to build their models as shown on the box which means using Special/Heavy weapons and the Champion equipment.
Comp Player - I don't even think using the CSM unit crosses their mind when Cultists still exist.
Well, I didn't call people "muppets", or accuse them of "whining" and "whinging" and "arguing in bad faith". Nor did I characterise multiple people disagreeing with me at the same time as "harassment".
The harassment post came after two users posted stuff that has now been removed. Both posts didn't actually have anything to do with the discussion and were just gak posts to be gakheads. As for the accusations of whinging, I feel they are absolutely fine when that is about 60% of what gets posted on Dakka. People post the same things over and over, and much of the time don't actually read replies or choose to misinterpret them to start flame wars. Everyone likes to complain and I'm not saying don't complain, I'm saying that complaining about something for three years is tiresome and childish when there are numerous solutions to said complaint that people just don't bother seeing.
At the end of the day, when I see someone with wrong opinions making bad arguments, I tend to assume they believe what they're saying (even if it seems obviously wrong to me) and that they are trying to engage in good faith and are just making the same sorts of logical errors we all tend to make when we're trying to defend a position we believe in.
You, however, often (not just in this thread) give the impression that you think anyone who disagrees with you is a malevolent troll who doesn't really believe the things they're saying and is using bad arguments deliberately in order to annoy you personally.
Not everyone, in fact, I made sure to message Gad to make it clear I hold no ill will towards them. Arguments get heated sometimes but I don't think I've been engaing in bad faith when people have just flat out ignored what I've written to make me look bad.
especially the basic Troops kit form the faction, that you can field all models from the kit using the basic loadout. The firstborn SM kits for Tacticals, Assault and Sternguard all have this option. They also have a whole host of options on top of that. The devastator kit even has a random lightning claw for the sarge. All the DE Troops can do this too. It really isn't like CSM players are asking for something out of the ordinary here so your insistence that it's all fine is kinda weird. That's especially true when coupled with GW's recent trend of using the sprue itself to define the options for a standard squad.
*sigh* Did you actually read what I wrote or are you just ignoring it because it doesn't suit your argument? Are we just going to treat all hypotheticals as reality now?
By my reckoning CSM players will fall into the following categories:
VotLW - This player has been with CSM for ages and is highly likely to have a metric tonne of spare gubbins and bitz with which to customise their models. The fact that the newer kit doesn't have 10 Bolters/Swords/Pistols doesn't bother them because they have these in the hundreds already as spares from other kits.
New Start - This player has just started CSM and likely bought the SC box which comes with the "ETB" kits which are mixed equipment. If they buy a normal CSM kit then they might well just use it to expand upon the models they already have. There is also a high chance that they want to build their models as shown on the box which means using Special/Heavy weapons and the Champion equipment.
Comp Player - I don't even think using the CSM unit crosses their mind when Cultists still exist.
But then you basically agree with the fact that to have a basic squad you have to resort to older kits which had more bits, which was what the discussion orginally started. I said old vs. new CSM, you said, nah, new CSM are a good kit, not worse than the old one, but now you say: if you mix the new kit with the bits from the old one (and/ or the ETB kit) you get what you want.
The hypothetical person who never buys another unit of CSM or Marine unit for their CSM will have issues.
I would very much like to meet this hypothetical person though because it would sure be an interesting conversation.
Gert wrote: The hypothetical person who never buys another unit of CSM or Marine unit for their CSM will have issues.
I would very much like to meet this hypothetical person though because it would sure be an interesting conversation.
As someone that owns about 100 new CSM.... honestly, the kit is at the same time worse and better than the old kit.
Worse because not even 10 of the basic equipment better because they are better models. Worse again because no icons.
*sigh* Did you actually read what I wrote or are you just ignoring it because it doesn't suit your argument? Are we just going to treat all hypotheticals as reality now?
By my reckoning CSM players will fall into the following categories:
VotLW - This player has been with CSM for ages and is highly likely to have a metric tonne of spare gubbins and bitz with which to customise their models. The fact that the newer kit doesn't have 10 Bolters/Swords/Pistols doesn't bother them because they have these in the hundreds already as spares from other kits.
New Start - This player has just started CSM and likely bought the SC box which comes with the "ETB" kits which are mixed equipment. If they buy a normal CSM kit then they might well just use it to expand upon the models they already have. There is also a high chance that they want to build their models as shown on the box which means using Special/Heavy weapons and the Champion equipment.
Comp Player - I don't even think using the CSM unit crosses their mind when Cultists still exist.
That just sounds like 3 completely arbitrary categories you've made up to justify your opinion. What about the experienced player starting CSM as their new army who wants to take advantage of CSM's ability to go all BP/chainsword with their Troops? Or the player who wants to utilise the option for blocks of 20 power armoured warriors? And you still haven't addressed that CSM are almost unique in not having all the basic options available to their most basic Troops option and how that sucks as an approach.
I also don't like the idea that GW should be relying on players having built up a stock of unused bits to justify them cutting down on those in the basic kits. That's especially true when GW themselves have previous for using the contents of the kit as the basis for the unit's restrictions.
Dysartes wrote: Off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of boxes for Troops choices where you can't build a squad with just the basic equipment for each trooper, and that's the CSM and the new Ork Boyz. Can't remember on Plague Marines, and CSM Cultists currently only have a sprue repurposed from a board game available, so we'll revisit those once they have a dedicated kit.
As Slipspace said, being able to built your Troops with their basic loadout should be a minimum requirement for such a kit, and has generally been treated as such, which is why it gets called out when it doesn't happen with a newer kit.
Flipside:
Guard lost lasgun options for their sergeants and there is zero reason for that to have happened. There's enough lasguns, even in the Cadian and Catachan sets, to have allowed for it.
That just sounds like 3 completely arbitrary categories you've made up to justify your opinion. What about the experienced player starting CSM as their new army who wants to take advantage of CSM's ability to go all BP/chainsword with their Troops? Or the player who wants to utilise the option for blocks of 20 power armoured warriors? And you still haven't addressed that CSM are almost unique in not having all the basic options available to their most basic Troops option and how that sucks as an approach.
If you're fielding a block of 20 power armoured warriors...you're going to need to buy multiple boxes anyways.
Or maybe they should split Chaos Marines into a "Tactical" and "Assault" version, eh? They could even use the same box so you get 5 and 5!
Y'know, like they actually advertise it as.
I also don't like the idea that GW should be relying on players having built up a stock of unused bits to justify them cutting down on those in the basic kits. That's especially true when GW themselves have previous for using the contents of the kit as the basis for the unit's restrictions.
I also don't like that people pretend so hard now that unused bits cease to exist when there's a limited number of Troop choices for an army...especially when they do stupid nonsense like doubling up the unit size.
Worth mentioning that one of the options that seemingly gets ignored all the time is the Start Collecting, while it's still here. 3 Boltguns and 4 BP+Chainsword and an Autocannon, Plasma Gun, and Aspiring Champion with Plasma+Power Axe as Easy-Builds in there.
Slipspace wrote:The firstborn SM kits for Tacticals, Assault and Sternguard all have this option. They also have a whole host of options on top of that. The devastator kit even has a random lightning claw for the sarge. All the DE Troops can do this too.
You know what all those squad types have in common? They each only have a single basic loadout. It's easy to make sure the Tac Squad kit has 10 bolters, the Assault Squad has 5 bolt pistols and 5 chainswords, the Sternguard has 5 bolters with fancy sniper scopes and the Kabalites have 10 splinter rifles, and still have room on the sprues for special weapons, heavy weapons, purity seals, squad leader weapons and other random gubbinz. But CSMs (and Ork Boyz) have two basic loadouts, which means 20 pairs of arms per squad before you even start adding plasma guns and power fists and extra heads and so on.
The challenge is still open. How would you recut the CSM sprues to fit all those additional arms in there without removing any of the existing options? I maintain that there simply is not enough room for the extra 5 pairs of arms you would need.
Gert wrote:The harassment post came after two users posted stuff that has now been removed. Both posts didn't actually have anything to do with the discussion and were just gak posts to be gakheads.
OK, I did not see the posts you are referencing, but I reckon if people were posting stuff that was bad enough to get their posts deleted here of all places, then calling it harassment is probably fair after all.
As for the accusations of whinging, I feel they are absolutely fine when that is about 60% of what gets posted on Dakka.
I don't think it's ever "fine" to try to dismiss other people's complaints as "whinging and whining". People get pissed about things. What seems trivial and unimportant to you might not be so to them. People like to vent.
Telling someone who is upset or worried about something that they can't really be upset and that they're actually just whining for the sake of it... don't you think that's a bit obnoxious?
People post the same things over and over, and much of the time don't actually read replies or choose to misinterpret them to start flame wars.
Of course people misinterpret things. But I think people doing that deliberately in order to start a flame war is pretty rare. And if you really think someone is doing that, wouldn't it be better to click the little yellow triangle rather than reply with passive-aggressive sarcasm and insults? If they really are just trolling, then surely snarling at them that they're a childish whinging whiner is exactly the reaction they're aiming to get out of you? There's an old saying about never wrestling with a pig.
Everyone likes to complain and I'm not saying don't complain, I'm saying that complaining about something for three years is tiresome and childish when there are numerous solutions to said complaint that people just don't bother seeing.
You can point people to the solutions without calling them "tiresome and childish". It's up to them how they respond to that, but at the end of the day it's better to just shrug and let people vent than start insulting them just because you're frustrated they aren't listening.
Not everyone, in fact, I made sure to message Gad to make it clear I hold no ill will towards them.
Fair enough.
Arguments get heated sometimes but I don't think I've been engaing in bad faith when people have just flat out ignored what I've written to make me look bad.
I understand the frustration. People do tend to ignore the stronger parts of other people's arguments and focus on attacking the weaker ones. That's just human nature. There doesn't seem to be a lot of point in getting annoyed about it.
Guard lost lasgun options for their sergeants and there is zero reason for that to have happened. There's enough lasguns, even in the Cadian and Catachan sets, to have allowed for it.
Fully agree that one is annoying - would've taken one additional arm piece on the Cadian sprue to resolve it, as I reckon the only reason it ain't allowed is that none of the lasgun arms feature a sergeant's stripes in there - give an alternate left arm (I think it is) for one of the lasgun sets with chevrons? Bob's your mother's brother. Could've even slotted it into the recent upgrade sprue...
Bit of a daft restriction anyway, though. Catachancs are a little tricker, as they don't have the Sergeant's strips to make them stand out - would need a different solution, but I'm not sure what.
OK, so you should be able to explain how you could fit an extra 10 arms on the sprues without removing anything, then. 3 Bolt pistol arms, 3 chainsword arms, 2 pairs of boltgun arms. Show us where you'd fit them in.
I think the boltgun arms are doable, especially if they're structured like the ones which can swap the special weapons in (so three pieces rather than two) - you get more flex to slot pieces in around other ones.
Comparing the sprues to the Necron Warrior sprue, I think you could save more space by using odder angles for your flow channels - there seems to be chunks of spare space due to almost everything being horizontal or vertical, with few diagonals. Exploting that would need a full rework of the layout, though. The backpack sprue, for example, would benefit quite a bit there.
Guard lost lasgun options for their sergeants and there is zero reason for that to have happened. There's enough lasguns, even in the Cadian and Catachan sets, to have allowed for it.
Fully agree that one is annoying - would've taken one additional arm piece on the Cadian sprue to resolve it, as I reckon the only reason it ain't allowed is that none of the lasgun arms feature a sergeant's stripes in there - give an alternate left arm (I think it is) for one of the lasgun sets with chevrons? Bob's your mother's brother. Could've even slotted it into the recent upgrade sprue...
You don't need an arm for it. There's literally a loose lasgun right there. It has been part of the kit since day one.
Bit of a daft restriction anyway, though. Catachans are a little tricker, as they don't have the Sergeant's strips to make them stand out - would need a different solution, but I'm not sure what.
There's no solution necessary outside of removing the sergeant chevrons from things. The Cadian artwork had the chevrons on the armor plates over the years, not cloth. Dunno why they did it on the cloth rather than having it as a transfer.
The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all
alextroy wrote: The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all
You know that he doesn't come with a Chainsword as standard, right?
Dysartes wrote: Off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of boxes for Troops choices where you can't build a squad with just the basic equipment for each trooper, and that's the CSM and the new Ork Boyz. Can't remember on Plague Marines, and CSM Cultists currently only have a sprue repurposed from a board game available, so we'll revisit those once they have a dedicated kit.
Also the Ork Lootas kit. You couldn't build 5 Lootas from it without conversion, as one could be a Mek. 3 guesses what GW did in the current book...
By my reckoning CSM players will fall into the following categories:
VotLW - This player has been with CSM for ages and is highly likely to have a metric tonne of spare gubbins and bitz with which to customise their models. The fact that the newer kit doesn't have 10 Bolters/Swords/Pistols doesn't bother them because they have these in the hundreds already as spares from other kits.
Explain to me, a vet player who does have both an immense bitz box & a CSM force, why I shouldn't still view it as stupid to make a kit that doesn't contain enough parts to make the basic listed loadout for a squad.
alextroy wrote: The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all
You know that he doesn't come with a Chainsword as standard, right?
Yes, which is what the pointing hand allows. Model is either pistol (or the ranged weapon) and pointing hand or pistol (or the ranged weapon) with either Chainsword or Powersword.
Why? Because the Sergeant Chevrons are on the pointing arm, chainsword arm, and powersword arm.
Is it silly? Yes. But it is the kit and GW rules tend to conform to the kit.
alextroy wrote: The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all
You know that he doesn't come with a Chainsword as standard, right?
Yes, which is what the pointing hand allows. Model is either pistol (or the ranged weapon) and pointing hand or pistol (or the ranged weapon) with either Chainsword or Powersword.
Why? Because the Sergeant Chevrons are on the pointing arm, chainsword arm, and powersword arm.
You are SO CLOSE TO GETTING IT!
If he comes standard with the Laspistol...then what did he not have until this new sprue was added?
Is it silly? Yes. But it is the kit and GW rules tend to conform to the kit.
It's not conforming though. You get 2x Chainswords and Laspistols per kit, from the outset of the Cadian Shock Troop kit.
You don't get 2 Sergeants per squad. You also cannot take 5 man Infantry, Veteran, or Conscript Squads(who don't get a Sergeant anyways).
I'd swing both ways because on the one hand I love kits like the Kabalites with opportunities for kitbashing, but why must I spend £55 for two Carnifexes with options when all I desire is a single Screamer Killer?
Do you not agree starting a dog pile because you don't like what someone says is harassment? Because I do.
no I think saying you took out the snarky mean comments from your post then saying you don't understand why you're being treated this way is... entertaining.
Even more so when I realize you snipped that very point to try and paint yourself as a victim again.
I've taken out some of the more insulting bits of my posts but I don't see how I was being obnoxious
if you don't do things the way I think they should be done. A patrol is what 1HQ and 2 Troop minimum for a 500-point game? So, one Chaos Lord and Two CSM kits. So, you bought another CSM kit, now you have enough... oh wait.
Actually its 1 and 1. Still missing my point entirely for some reason.
No, we're all getting your point. The only way you approve of playing/collecting/etc. the game is the way you think it should be played/collected/etc. You're the one being dense as a dwarf star as multitudes of people point out your way isn't the only way and doesn't work for everyone. Like a 200-point Patrol with one Chaos Lord and 10 Chaos Space Marines all with bolt pistols and chainswords. Did you get it this time? There will be some number of people out there who don't buy those extra kits, and/or can't afford to buy 10 kits at once to have the bits on hand? As such the kit should make all (and/or half for the kits that only provide half the bodies) the legal options for the datasheet
alextroy wrote: The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all
You know that he doesn't come with a Chainsword as standard, right?
Yes, which is what the pointing hand allows. Model is either pistol (or the ranged weapon) and pointing hand or pistol (or the ranged weapon) with either Chainsword or Powersword.
Why? Because the Sergeant Chevrons are on the pointing arm, chainsword arm, and powersword arm.
You are SO CLOSE TO GETTING IT!
If he comes standard with the Laspistol...then what did he not have until this new sprue was added?
Is it silly? Yes. But it is the kit and GW rules tend to conform to the kit.
It's not conforming though. You get 2x Chainswords and Laspistols per kit, from the outset of the Cadian Shock Troop kit.
You don't get 2 Sergeants per squad. You also cannot take 5 man Infantry, Veteran, or Conscript Squads(who don't get a Sergeant anyways).
And your point is?
The kit, before he upgrade sprue, was two 5 model sets that included enough bits for a sergeant, a grenade launcher, a flamer, a voxcaster, and 5 lasguns. So more options than you can field, especially when they give you have the upgrades twice. Did anyone care they couldn't make a laspistol only sergeant with the kit? I sincerely doubt it.
The big thing is you now can literally build every legal option, except the heavy weapons team, from the new Cadian Shock Troops box. That's pretty good compared to many other kits that lack something or other if not multiple somethings.
alextroy wrote: The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all
You know that he doesn't come with a Chainsword as standard, right?
Yes, which is what the pointing hand allows. Model is either pistol (or the ranged weapon) and pointing hand or pistol (or the ranged weapon) with either Chainsword or Powersword.
Why? Because the Sergeant Chevrons are on the pointing arm, chainsword arm, and powersword arm.
You are SO CLOSE TO GETTING IT!
If he comes standard with the Laspistol...then what did he not have until this new sprue was added?
Is it silly? Yes. But it is the kit and GW rules tend to conform to the kit.
It's not conforming though. You get 2x Chainswords and Laspistols per kit, from the outset of the Cadian Shock Troop kit.
You don't get 2 Sergeants per squad. You also cannot take 5 man Infantry, Veteran, or Conscript Squads(who don't get a Sergeant anyways).
And your point is?
The kit, before he upgrade sprue, was two 5 model sets that included enough bits for a sergeant, a grenade launcher, a flamer, a voxcaster, and 5 lasguns. So more options than you can field, especially when they give you have the upgrades twice. Did anyone care they couldn't make a laspistol only sergeant with the kit? I sincerely doubt it.
The big thing is you now can literally build every legal option, except the heavy weapons team, from the new Cadian Shock Troops box. That's pretty good compared to many other kits that lack something or other if not multiple somethings.
You claimed that the whole reason why there was no lasgun option for the Sergeant is that there was no Sergeant stripes "in the kit" on a lasgun arm. That "the upgrade sprue" solves all of this anyways, because of the sergeant stripes.
How the heck are you going to justify rules laid down three iterations of a codex ago(lasguns were removed as an option with Cruddace's first book) with a sprue barely half of a year old?
That's my point. The "laspistol only" bit came with the 8E book.
alextroy wrote: The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all
You know that he doesn't come with a Chainsword as standard, right?
Yes, which is what the pointing hand allows. Model is either pistol (or the ranged weapon) and pointing hand or pistol (or the ranged weapon) with either Chainsword or Powersword.
Why? Because the Sergeant Chevrons are on the pointing arm, chainsword arm, and powersword arm.
You are SO CLOSE TO GETTING IT!
If he comes standard with the Laspistol...then what did he not have until this new sprue was added?
Is it silly? Yes. But it is the kit and GW rules tend to conform to the kit.
It's not conforming though. You get 2x Chainswords and Laspistols per kit, from the outset of the Cadian Shock Troop kit.
You don't get 2 Sergeants per squad. You also cannot take 5 man Infantry, Veteran, or Conscript Squads(who don't get a Sergeant anyways).
And your point is?
The kit, before he upgrade sprue, was two 5 model sets that included enough bits for a sergeant, a grenade launcher, a flamer, a voxcaster, and 5 lasguns. So more options than you can field, especially when they give you have the upgrades twice. Did anyone care they couldn't make a laspistol only sergeant with the kit? I sincerely doubt it.
The big thing is you now can literally build every legal option, except the heavy weapons team, from the new Cadian Shock Troops box. That's pretty good compared to many other kits that lack something or other if not multiple somethings.
You claimed that the whole reason why there was no lasgun option for the Sergeant is that there was no Sergeant stripes "in the kit" on a lasgun arm. That "the upgrade sprue" solves all of this anyways, because of the sergeant stripes.
How the heck are you going to justify rules laid down three iterations of a codex ago(lasguns were removed as an option with Cruddace's first book) with a sprue barely half of a year old?
That's my point. The "laspistol only" bit came with the 8E book.
Thank you for your answer.
I'm speaking only to the 8th and 9th editions rules. I know the no lasgun rule is from earlier, but the current weapons options are from the 8th Edition Codex. I honestly never noticed the Sgt went from Laspistol and Chainsword in the Index to Laspistol with optional Chainsword in the Codex. I wonder if it has something to do with one of the old metal models still available at the time? Who knows :shrug:
Personally, I'm pleased that GW fixed the Cadian Shock Troops Kit to actually allow for all the options the unit has for the first time in forever. You can't ask for more than a kit that actually allows all the unit's options without being a totally bloated mess of bits.
OK, we could have asked for a new Cadian kit that did that all with more dynamic and better proportioned models
I'm speaking only to the 8th and 9th editions rules. I know the no lasgun rule is from earlier, but the current weapons options are from the 8th Edition Codex. I honestly never noticed the Sgt went from Laspistol and Chainsword in the Index to Laspistol with optional Chainsword in the Codex. I wonder if it has something to do with one of the old metal models still available at the time? Who knows :shrug:
It had nothing to do with anything in all likelihood, same as the "no lasgun" parts. Cruddace is one of those folks who seems to be of the belief that Guard can't be competent so the loadouts seem to reflect that.
Best guess is that someone screwed up copy/pasting profiles, again. The Cruddace book had a big issue with find+replace screwups relating to the hellguns are really hotshot lasgun garbage.
Personally, I'm pleased that GW fixed the Cadian Shock Troops Kit to actually allow for all the options the unit has for the first time in forever. You can't ask for more than a kit that actually allows all the unit's options without being a totally bloated mess of bits.
They didn't. There's still no Heavy Weapon Team.
OK, we could have asked for a new Cadian kit that did that all with more dynamic and better proportioned models
Personally, I'm pleased that GW fixed the Cadian Shock Troops Kit to actually allow for all the options the unit has for the first time in forever. You can't ask for more than a kit that actually allows all the unit's options without being a totally bloated mess of bits.
They didn't. There's still no Heavy Weapon Team.
OK, we could have asked for a new Cadian kit that did that all with more dynamic and better proportioned models
There's one coming, by all reliable accounts.
The Heavy Weapons Team is a separate kit, so not really a problem.
I find it highly questionable that they would produce the upgrade sprue and turn turn around and make a brand new kit. But then again, there is the new Ork Boyz kit sitting alongside the old kit.
They sell Heavy Weapons Squads, which are a unit in and of themselves. Also: you just have to look at the Brood-Brothers box, which literally includes the Heavy Weapon Team in it. DKoK+Cadians do not. It's a big part of why I've been so annoying in speculating there will be a big shift coming for Guard.
FWIW, there's a rumor that there was going to be a Cadian Kill-Team rather than the Death Korps. Death Korps were ready to go first though. Makes a kind of sense, given that there's a Cadian update in the Octarius Warzone books.
The upgrade sprue for the Cadians definitely feels like it is meant to accompany a new kit not the old one.
Some kits being rotated out and the ensuing discussion(S) here had me wondering, do people prefer a model specific to a role or kits that allow customisation and thus one kit can play multiple roles. For example, the rune priest. Would you prefer a special model for this character, or a kit that might make a rune priest or a different character depending on load out and possible back banner decal and so on?
I expect a clear result in one direction, but may be surprised. Given the plastic medium, I expect that GW might ge able to go either way. Without comment on the obvious, which would you prefer?
In general, the more options the better. The classic space marine kits are easily my favorite of all time. They all had a myriad of additional options and tac/assauly/devs all used the same torso, so you could swap your leftovers in between the various kits.
HOWEVER, I dislike it when it's a blatant attempt to get more money for less functional product. A great example of this is the Tau Fire Warrior kit.
Both the Breachers and Strike Teams come in the same kit and have unique heads, shoulder pads, backpacks, arms, and weapons in this kits as well as a myriad of other odds and sods. With the inclusion of 10 more torsos, 6 (if I recall correctly) more legs, and 8 tiny little ear piece com links, you could make a full 10 other models at a fraction of the additional plastic. I would even take this if they sold it as a upgrade sprue and tacked on an extra five-ten bucks to get twice the number of models. Yeah you would have to want both teams, but they are the bread and butter Tau infantry, most people need both.
Tawnis wrote: Both the Breachers and Strike Teams come in the same kit and have unique heads, shoulder pads, backpacks, arms, and weapons in this kits as well as a myriad of other odds and sods. With the inclusion of 10 more torsos, 6 (if I recall correctly) more legs, and 8 tiny little ear piece com links, you could make a full 10 other models at a fraction of the additional plastic. I would even take this if they sold it as a upgrade sprue and tacked on an extra five-ten bucks to get twice the number of models. Yeah you would have to want both teams, but they are the bread and butter Tau infantry, most people need both.
That is a very annoying thing. I know that you can make 3 Carnifexes out of every Carnifex kit if you can somehow get hold of two extra torsos and legs (GW used to sell that sprue!). I have 12 plastic Carnifxes, and I know that I never bought that many.
jeff white wrote: Tawnis, that is insightful, and agreed… value for money is strictly contrary to the business model it seems.
It's odd, it almost feels like they have more than one department making the call for how these are done, because not every kits seems to end up this way, even now. For example, putting aside how overpriced the Hvy Intercessors are as a kit (as that is a whole other issue), the actual kit itself if very smartly designed. Each of the weapon variations are determined by a cartridge that slots into the weapon itself, it hooks into the model so it stays in pretty well without glue. This means that while you only have 5 bodies, you can freely swap between any of the weapon options at your leisure without having to buy more models.
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jeff white wrote: Those kits look effing great! Holy moly... I did not realise things like this were even available.
Her scale is very slightly smaller than that of the standard guardsman and it is a little noticeable when they are side by side. That being said, she is elevated on that wreck which helps height wise at least. I just consider her a petite badass.
I like that different models are different statures. I have some old metal marines that I use with newer models and old eldar warriors that I use with newer ones and so on, not so much different but it is normal for different people to be different sizes. I would use numarines as og marines if they weren’t incompatible by design. The new sisters are bigger than old metals so I mixed the units with basing and painting to unify them. Look great imho. Petite badass is right then!
stupid to make a kit that doesn't contain enough parts to make the basic listed loadout for a squad.
