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You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/02 16:58:48


Post by: mrFickle


Haha

So as it’s confirmed they are coming back I thought it might be nice to have a thread about what we know of the squats as they have existed in preparation for an extension of existing lore or a full re write. Because I don’t know squat haha

All I really know is that they are evolutionary arm of humans that adapted to life on heavy G worlds. Then they disappeared and people joked that the nids ate them.

I always thought that they even led into squats from humans after the HH, as there is no mention of them in the HH but it looks like GW are preparing to say they diverged before the dark age of technology. So they’ve already been there but the emperor didn’t want to bring them into the fold or couldn’t????

I’m hoping you know more than me


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/02 17:07:56


Post by: beast_gts


Originally, some Squad Leagues sided with / joined the Imperium (and served in the Imperial Army), others remained neutral and some fell to Chaos. When they were 'squatted' they were largely written out of the background, with only occasional mentions - then the Demiurg popped and later actual Squats on Necromunda.

Spoiler:


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/02 17:17:27


Post by: Voss


Squat lore is... fun. There isn't a lot of it, and at least some (if not a lot) of it was written before the HH lore. So DAoT origin doesn't seem strange to me- I'll have to dig through books- RT and the 40k compilation, and try to find the Warlords supplement for Epic.


Old lore, off the top of my head.
Stable evolution of humans (still abhumans, but like ogryns and ratlings, since they're stable without other mutations, they're not kill on sight)

They were divided into Brotherhoods and Guilds, and were subfactions with their own minimum troop and HQ requirements before subfactions were a thing. I hope this doesn't stick, because it made for odd listbuilding back in the day, and wouldn't be any better today.

Brotherhoods are basically guardsmen, but with toughness 4.

Guilds are more adventurous and that's where the bikes and trikes come in.

Squats followed their Living Ancestors, old squats who had developed psychic powers.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/02 17:19:50


Post by: beast_gts


Don't forget Exo-armour!


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/02 17:23:43


Post by: zedmeister


Squats were also rumoured to have perfected stable warp fusion and was coveted by the Adeptus Mechanicus (see Ganymede incident). Supposedly, the Cyclops ran its hellfury beam cannon off a warp fusion reactor


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/02 17:39:28


Post by: Olthannon


From what I remember they were Human settlers that moved to the galactic core and settled the planets there. And then those planets were mental so they started living underground and evolved. They had lots of cool science and tech but without the mechanicum dogma. Because the planets they settled were very mineral rich they became famous traders and the guilds are linked to that. They also hate the Eldar and Orks, which is basically the WHFB Dwarves.

I don't know if the HH books made mention of the Squats? But there was definitely Chaos Squats.



You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/02 17:40:47


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


This sounds like a job for…..

OWNS A LOT OF OLD BOOKS MAN!

But like, when I get in from the pub. It’s been a busy day of flat viewing, but I’ll do my best like, tomorrow or something.

Seriously. I have all the Rogue Trader era books, and Ork & Squat Warlords. And a pretty decent copy of 2nd Ed.

Please note this means I only have the information, not the knowledge. I’ll just be regurgitating, so please do not expect loony insight this time around.

But you, my dear fellow Dakkanauts, are worth it.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/02 19:37:58


Post by: xerxeskingofking


mrFickle wrote:
Haha

So as it’s confirmed they are coming back I thought it might be nice to have a thread about what we know of the squats as they have existed in preparation for an extension of existing lore or a full re write. Because I don’t know squat haha

All I really know is that they are evolutionary arm of humans that adapted to life on heavy G worlds. Then they disappeared and people joked that the nids ate them.

I always thought that they even led into squats from humans after the HH, as there is no mention of them in the HH but it looks like GW are preparing to say they diverged before the dark age of technology. So they’ve already been there but the emperor didn’t want to bring them into the fold or couldn’t????

I’m hoping you know more than me


pretty much what the others have said. they are a stable, "permitted" offshoot of humanity, located on mineral rich, high G worlds near the core. they are organised along tribal lines with the guilds in charge of the technology. They diverged either the very end of the dark age of technology or early age of strife, and survived the Age of strife more or less intact. I think they were semi-independent, like the Admech forge worlds, or the Knight worlds, officially part of the imperium, but granted special privileges that set them apart. Most of their lore was basically "fantasy dwarves IN SPACE!!", to be honest.

the modern Horus heresy lore completely ignores them as they just weren't "official" when it was (re)written.


on the tabletop, they had a mix of fairly standard guardsmen level infantry, backed up by both bike/trike mounted units and egg shaped exo armour teams. they were expanded somewhat in Epic, with a emphasis on superheavy vehicles like the land train, but that dont really translate down to 40k scale well.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/03 01:32:57


Post by: Iracundus


They were humans that settled mineral rich high-G worlds, more densely clustered near the core. Over time they were cut off from the rest of humanity during the Age of Strife. Their worlds were hostile and so they became insular, forming clans and guilds, with convoys like Land Trains keeping settlements in contact. By the time contact was re-established, they were the Squats, and were classified as a stable form of Abhuman, like Ogryns.

They hated Orks (the old Dwarf vs Ork trope) due to the Orks attacking their settlements repeatedly. They disliked Eldar because they had called on the Eldar to aid them (back when they had better trading relationships) but the Eldar did not so now they bear a grudge (again the old antipathy of Dwarf vs Elf).

They were non-psychic as a race until they got very old when they were revered as Living Ancestors. They were practical in their tech, though back in the day this differed relatively little from Imperial tech.

In actual 40K scale they were mostly Guardsmen equivalent that were short, slow, but tougher. Their heaviest armor was similar to Terminator Armor but was called Ex-Armor and they looked a bit like Faberge eggs. These had a power-axe and bolter as standard.

In Epic they had more variety of stuff but this stuff was mostly not suitable for 40K scale. The Goliath Mega Cannon was a massive fixed artillery piece that had massive range but with a minimum range and vulnerable at close quarters (thus not suitable for a 40K board). They had the Squat Land Train, which was basically a tank-like engine pulling a series of battle cars. One battle car was a transport with light weaponry, another had a flamethrower like an inferno cannon, one had a one use rad bomb/missile, and one was a basic mortar car. There was one with light weapons but more void shields for the train as a whole. The problem was the entire Train could be immobilized if the front engine was destroyed and it was only a tank equivalent with a few void shields.

For flyers they had the Overlord Gunship which was an armored flying blimp. Slow for a flyer and the amount of firepower was not that special. Gyrocopters were the other main Squat flyer and they were used to spot for the other Squat artillery units.

Superheavies they had the Colossus and the Cyclops. The Colossus was basically an Imperial Leviathan refitted with more weaponry instead of having any transport. The Cyclops was a Titan-killer with its Hellfury cannon, which could drill through multiple void shields in one hit, whereas most weapons could at most knock down 1 shield per hit.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/03 02:58:43


Post by: RegularGuy


I love it except I wish they could fix some of the factions they already have a little better first

It's kind of like "Oh I know some things really suck but HEY! Look at this new shiny!"


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/03 04:59:37


Post by: Grey Templar


They'll probably just shoehorn them in like this,

"A handful of Squat homeworlds found themselves isolated from the Imperium at large in the 33rd millennium. After the rift which split the galaxy in two, suddenly these planets found that they could once again find stable warp travel and made contact with the Imperium."

I suspect they'll make some of the clans side with the Imperium and Mechanicus. Others will strike out on their own. Others may fall to chaos. They'll probably have their own version of the Imperial creed and worship him as an exalted ancestor.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/03 06:55:15


Post by: Olthannon


 Grey Templar wrote:
They'll probably just shoehorn them in like this,

"A handful of Squat homeworlds found themselves isolated from the Imperium at large in the 33rd millennium. After the rift which split the galaxy in two, suddenly these planets found that they could once again find stable warp travel and made contact with the Imperium."

I suspect they'll make some of the clans side with the Imperium and Mechanicus. Others will strike out on their own. Others may fall to chaos. They'll probably have their own version of the Imperial creed and worship him as an exalted ancestor.



I mean most of what you said is the established lore on Squats. So is it shoehorning something that has existed since the beginning?


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/03 14:26:49


Post by: Grimtuff


Iracundus wrote:
The Goliath Mega Cannon was a massive fixed artillery piece that had massive range but with a minimum range and vulnerable at close quarters (thus not suitable for a 40K board).


Reminder that both the Basilisk and Deathstrike have existed in 40k for some time. If those can exist in 40k, then that can too.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/03 15:47:28


Post by: Voss


 Grimtuff wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
The Goliath Mega Cannon was a massive fixed artillery piece that had massive range but with a minimum range and vulnerable at close quarters (thus not suitable for a 40K board).


Reminder that both the Basilisk and Deathstrike have existed in 40k for some time. If those can exist in 40k, then that can too.


Well, they do... but... I really don't think that either is a direction to pursue or a good thing to propagate.
Every time I see a (Catachan) Basilisk detachment tucked against the board edge and firing sideways I wince. Its basically the posterchild for everything that went wrong with this edition in terms of LoS, board layout, terrain and vehicles.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/03 18:53:05


Post by: Racerguy180


4x8 it make a little more sense but yes the ranges and actual battlefield placement is a bit ridiculous.

Those basilisk & manticores should be like 25 feet away for it to even be roughly scale to what the range of even modern artillery is. But 40k has never worked in a scaling sense anyway.



You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/03 20:14:33


Post by: RegularGuy


Voss wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
The Goliath Mega Cannon was a massive fixed artillery piece that had massive range but with a minimum range and vulnerable at close quarters (thus not suitable for a 40K board).


Reminder that both the Basilisk and Deathstrike have existed in 40k for some time. If those can exist in 40k, then that can too.


Well, they do... but... I really don't think that either is a direction to pursue or a good thing to propagate.
Every time I see a (Catachan) Basilisk detachment tucked against the board edge and firing sideways I wince. Its basically the posterchild for everything that went wrong with this edition in terms of LoS, board layout, terrain and vehicles.

This. Ranges of all units and some movement values have to be revisited to match the smaller board.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/03 21:38:23


Post by: Iracundus


The Goliath Mega Cannon was more like the WW2 railway guns Gustav or Dora. Its minimum range would be more like an entire 40K board.

It is the same illogic of having Deathstrike launchers launching missiles to land on the same 40K board as itself. On Epic scale, maybe you could get away with rationalizing it, but 40K board is basically Epic close combat range.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/03 22:36:56


Post by: Nevelon


Iracundus wrote:
The Goliath Mega Cannon was more like the WW2 railway guns Gustav or Dora. Its minimum range would be more like an entire 40K board.

It is the same illogic of having Deathstrike launchers launching missiles to land on the same 40K board as itself. On Epic scale, maybe you could get away with rationalizing it, but 40K board is basically Epic close combat range.


If they do make something like that for 40k scale, it would be nice if they just ignored the main gun for most games. Just have stats for the secondary defensive guns (which could still be formidable) and the chassis.

Have the big stuff in a sidebar. “If playing on a massive table in a apocalyptic battle, here are the stats/min range, add x hundred points and have fun”

If you are playing on a smaller scale you can assume the gun is still firing, just at something outside the scope of the game. But gives a nice focus for the battle; silence/defend the big gun.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/04 00:51:00


Post by: Grey Templar


 Olthannon wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
They'll probably just shoehorn them in like this,

"A handful of Squat homeworlds found themselves isolated from the Imperium at large in the 33rd millennium. After the rift which split the galaxy in two, suddenly these planets found that they could once again find stable warp travel and made contact with the Imperium."

I suspect they'll make some of the clans side with the Imperium and Mechanicus. Others will strike out on their own. Others may fall to chaos. They'll probably have their own version of the Imperial creed and worship him as an exalted ancestor.



I mean most of what you said is the established lore on Squats. So is it shoehorning something that has existed since the beginning?


The shoehorned part is "Oh, they were always here, just isolated and cutoff till some convenient thing conveniently let them make contact again..."


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/04 00:52:56


Post by: Dekskull


I thought that the lore said they were wiped out by the tyranids? Is that part being retconned now?

I really hope they try to respect the prior lore on this. They could very easily describe the new squats as the last survivors of the tyranid apocalypse. Kind of rare like eldar are.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/04 01:52:34


Post by: Arson Fire


 Dekskull wrote:
I thought that the lore said they were wiped out by the tyranids? Is that part being retconned now?

I really hope they try to respect the prior lore on this. They could very easily describe the new squats as the last survivors of the tyranid apocalypse. Kind of rare like eldar are.

The lore never really stated that the squats had been wiped out by the tyranids. Rather that came from a few off-hand comments made over the years by people working at GW. So it's kind of official enough, but at the same time there aren't any novels or anything detailing the downfall of the squat race which would need to be retconned into not happening. It's more that GW just stopped writing about squats, and when asked about it responded with "eh, nids ate em".

The Lexicanum article on squats has quite a long section covering the development of the faction, which discusses it in some detail: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Squat


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/04 07:30:57


Post by: Iracundus


Arson Fire wrote:
 Dekskull wrote:
I thought that the lore said they were wiped out by the tyranids? Is that part being retconned now?

I really hope they try to respect the prior lore on this. They could very easily describe the new squats as the last survivors of the tyranid apocalypse. Kind of rare like eldar are.

The lore never really stated that the squats had been wiped out by the tyranids. Rather that came from a few off-hand comments made over the years by people working at GW. So it's kind of official enough, but at the same time there aren't any novels or anything detailing the downfall of the squat race which would need to be retconned into not happening. It's more that GW just stopped writing about squats, and when asked about it responded with "eh, nids ate em".

The Lexicanum article on squats has quite a long section covering the development of the faction, which discusses it in some detail: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Squat


Actually it did. The reprint of the Ian Watson Inquisitor novel had a new added foreword saying that the Squats were wiped out by the Tyranids. So it is more than just random comments but something that actually saw print. I have seen it, flipped through it. Of course, GW can easily retcon that away as well and pretend it never happened or that the Administratum got it wrong.

In the Psychic Awakening books, there is a little teaser blurb of an Imperial ship encountering what are presumably the Squats and disbelieving because they were thought to be extinct. So that retcon could already have an in-universe basis.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/04 08:15:40


Post by: Lord Zarkov


Iracundus wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
 Dekskull wrote:
I thought that the lore said they were wiped out by the tyranids? Is that part being retconned now?

I really hope they try to respect the prior lore on this. They could very easily describe the new squats as the last survivors of the tyranid apocalypse. Kind of rare like eldar are.

The lore never really stated that the squats had been wiped out by the tyranids. Rather that came from a few off-hand comments made over the years by people working at GW. So it's kind of official enough, but at the same time there aren't any novels or anything detailing the downfall of the squat race which would need to be retconned into not happening. It's more that GW just stopped writing about squats, and when asked about it responded with "eh, nids ate em".

The Lexicanum article on squats has quite a long section covering the development of the faction, which discusses it in some detail: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Squat


Actually it did. The reprint of the Ian Watson Inquisitor novel had a new added foreword saying that the Squats were wiped out by the Tyranids. So it is more than just random comments but something that actually saw print. I have seen it, flipped through it. Of course, GW can easily retcon that away as well and pretend it never happened or that the Administratum got it wrong.

In the Psychic Awakening books, there is a little teaser blurb of an Imperial ship encountering what are presumably the Squats and disbelieving because they were thought to be extinct. So that retcon could already have an in-universe basis.


Someone mentioned in the rumour thread that a later reprint of Inquisitor/Draco took the ‘eaten by the nids’ statement out as it was incorrect author commentary which hadn’t been checked properly.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/04 09:26:40


Post by: Iracundus


Lord Zarkov wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
Arson Fire wrote:
 Dekskull wrote:
I thought that the lore said they were wiped out by the tyranids? Is that part being retconned now?

I really hope they try to respect the prior lore on this. They could very easily describe the new squats as the last survivors of the tyranid apocalypse. Kind of rare like eldar are.

The lore never really stated that the squats had been wiped out by the tyranids. Rather that came from a few off-hand comments made over the years by people working at GW. So it's kind of official enough, but at the same time there aren't any novels or anything detailing the downfall of the squat race which would need to be retconned into not happening. It's more that GW just stopped writing about squats, and when asked about it responded with "eh, nids ate em".

The Lexicanum article on squats has quite a long section covering the development of the faction, which discusses it in some detail: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Squat


Actually it did. The reprint of the Ian Watson Inquisitor novel had a new added foreword saying that the Squats were wiped out by the Tyranids. So it is more than just random comments but something that actually saw print. I have seen it, flipped through it. Of course, GW can easily retcon that away as well and pretend it never happened or that the Administratum got it wrong.

In the Psychic Awakening books, there is a little teaser blurb of an Imperial ship encountering what are presumably the Squats and disbelieving because they were thought to be extinct. So that retcon could already have an in-universe basis.


Someone mentioned in the rumour thread that a later reprint of Inquisitor/Draco took the ‘eaten by the nids’ statement out as it was incorrect author commentary which hadn’t been checked properly.


I highly doubt that. The insertion was most likely at the behest of GW to try and cram the story (written when there were Squats) into the continuity which at that time had no Squats, and then later any removal was likely also due to GW. I don't think the author would have cared to take the initiative to insert a new foreword to a title written decades ago, let alone have editors miss the insertion of a new foreword in its entirety.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/04 11:09:52


Post by: Karak Norn Clansman


I've corresponded a bit with Ian Watson via e-mail. Heaped compliments on him for Space Marine and asked if he had any plans to revisit Warhammer 40'000, maybe even as an openly stated heretical book filled with bonkers stuff.

He found the idea tempting, but answered that he must resist the notion. He was not happy with the amount of meddling, changing of already published titles and pushback he had received from the tech-priest game developers.

Any author commentary about Squats was guaranteed to have come out of his contacts at Games Workshop, and not something random on his own initiative. He would not voluntarily change a finished title.

Besides, the TTS parody review of Inquisitor had the Emperor call the Squat the only redeemable character in the entire novel.

And now Homo Sapiens Rotundus are back! One wonders if Deep Rock Galactic has had any influence here.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/05 20:08:04


Post by: Andykp


They seem to have confirmed that squats and demiurg are different on WHC. And have been for a wee while.

“**** The Book of Judgement confirmed that Squat prospectors are still around, and buying energy drills from Demiurg.”


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/06 10:39:53


Post by: kirotheavenger


Interesting, they made a big point to labour "are squats and demiurg the same afterall?" in the article.
Sounds like WarCom to slip up and undermine their own bs lol.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/06 11:06:23


Post by: tneva82


 Grimtuff wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
The Goliath Mega Cannon was a massive fixed artillery piece that had massive range but with a minimum range and vulnerable at close quarters (thus not suitable for a 40K board).


Reminder that both the Basilisk and Deathstrike have existed in 40k for some time. If those can exist in 40k, then that can too.


Well...We are talking about artirelly piece that would super heavy...With long minimum range. Like get within bolter range and you are safe.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/06 18:47:02


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Tomorrow night I’ll dig out the Ork & Squat Warlords book, which is, to the best of my knowledge, the last published source of Squat background. Being 2nd Ed Epic, it straddles that odd period between “wheeeeeeee we’ve no idea what we’re doing!” Rogue Trader background and the “quick, everyone to the rational pumps” 2nd Edition 40K.

Expect a bunch of verbatim blurbs about the unit types, and probably a potted version of their wider background because I can’t be arsed to type it all out.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/06 20:08:41


Post by: mrFickle


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Interesting, they made a big point to labour "are squats and demiurg the same afterall?" in the article.
Sounds like WarCom to slip up and undermine their own bs lol.


Maybe the way to think about it is we aren’t getting squats we’re getting the leagues of votann. The demiurg and the leagues of votann might both be squats but that is just a human slang word for the particular a human type. I’d think of them like craft worlds and harlequins.

That’s my guess based on what I read


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/06 20:21:30


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 kirotheavenger wrote:
Interesting, they made a big point to labour "are squats and demiurg the same afterall?" in the article.
Sounds like WarCom to slip up and undermine their own bs lol.
\


Oh yeah totally.

Except that bit where they point in actual words that in a very modern book Squats are known to trade with the Demiurge for mining lasers.

L.

O.

L.

If you’re gonna whine, at least make your whining factual?

WarCom wrote:****The Book of Judgement confirmed that Squat prospectors are still around, and buying energy drills from Demiurg.


Seriously. GW are far from perfect, but I really, really, really loathe whines which have no basis in fact.

L.

O.

L.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/06 22:05:22


Post by: Lord Zarkov


mrFickle wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Interesting, they made a big point to labour "are squats and demiurg the same afterall?" in the article.
Sounds like WarCom to slip up and undermine their own bs lol.


Maybe the way to think about it is we aren’t getting squats we’re getting the leagues of votann. The demiurg and the leagues of votann might both be squats but that is just a human slang word for the particular a human type. I’d think of them like craft worlds and harlequins.

That’s my guess based on what I read


That might well be it tbh - would give an explanation for why people are unsure if they’re different or not while still having as a defined thing trade between Imperial Squats and the Demiurge.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/07 03:31:27


Post by: Racerguy180


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Spoiler:
Tomorrow night I’ll dig out the Ork & Squat Warlords book, which is, to the best of my knowledge, the last published source of Squat background.
Being 2nd Ed Epic, it straddles that odd period between “wheeeeeeee we’ve no idea what we’re doing!” Rogue Trader background and the “quick, everyone to the rational pumps” 2nd Edition 40K.

You've said some funny gak before, but that's a new topper!


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/07 12:10:25


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Interesting, they made a big point to labour "are squats and demiurg the same afterall?" in the article.
Sounds like WarCom to slip up and undermine their own bs lol.
\


Oh yeah totally.

Except that bit where they point in actual words that in a very modern book Squats are known to trade with the Demiurge for mining lasers.

If you’re gonna whine, at least make your whining factual?

I think you may have misunderstood my comment.
I was talking specifically and only about that article. In that article they state;
Were these the Leagues sneaking back into the setting, or a new alien species filling a similar role? We’re still not sure

They're setting up mystery and intrigue around maybe they're the Demiurg.

Then they contradict their own "we're not sure" later in that very same article.
The fact that we are sure and they're not the same per other lore is just a further mail for WarCom


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/07 18:24:58


Post by: Voss


Uncertainty is not contradiction.

Are the demiurg squats that sought refuge with the Tau? That other squats still trade with? We don't know, but its quite possible.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/07 21:11:22


Post by: Olthannon


They aren't undermining themselves though. The point of that article was talking about the history of Squats in 40k. They talk about the Demiurg as they were sort of a nod to possibly being Squats who knows. In the article they keep to that premise. It's a bit of a mystery presumably until the codex tells us what is real.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/08 21:31:57


Post by: Tawnis


mrFickle wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Interesting, they made a big point to labour "are squats and demiurg the same afterall?" in the article.
Sounds like WarCom to slip up and undermine their own bs lol.


Maybe the way to think about it is we aren’t getting squats we’re getting the leagues of votann. The demiurg and the leagues of votann might both be squats but that is just a human slang word for the particular a human type. I’d think of them like craft worlds and harlequins.

That’s my guess based on what I read


I really hope that's the route they go, so many people have been itching for more Tau Auxilliaries and it would be great to have one faction of Squats that are more Imperium leaning, one other for Tau, and maybe even another for Chaos.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/10 11:16:49


Post by: silverstu


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tomorrow night I’ll dig out the Ork & Squat Warlords book, which is, to the best of my knowledge, the last published source of Squat background. Being 2nd Ed Epic, it straddles that odd period between “wheeeeeeee we’ve no idea what we’re doing!” Rogue Trader background and the “quick, everyone to the rational pumps” 2nd Edition 40K.

Expect a bunch of verbatim blurbs about the unit types, and probably a potted version of their wider background because I can’t be arsed to type it all out.


Look forward to it mate- never got that book as I was in my eldar phase then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Olthannon wrote:
They aren't undermining themselves though. The point of that article was talking about the history of Squats in 40k. They talk about the Demiurg as they were sort of a nod to possibly being Squats who knows. In the article they keep to that premise. It's a bit of a mystery presumably until the codex tells us what is real.


I think they might want to keep it a bit vaguest they have options to do something different with Demiurg later, but as others have said they might be a different branch of squats, separate from the leagues.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/10 20:55:29


Post by: Segersgia


I found the White Dwarf that mentions “Homeworld Golgotha”. Page 38 of White Dwarf issue 452. This was released in march 2020.

The former Squat home world of Golgotha is dominated by airfields and workshops that produce squadrons of Ork aircraft.


It is not much, but it kind of re-canonizes that bit of lore from earlier editions.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/10 21:39:25


Post by: Iracundus


I miss that kind of canonization of battle reports, even though that particular Orks vs. Squats/Imperial was a horrible one sided slaughter of the Squats driven namely by Jervis taking a useless mix of one of each Squat vehicle to try and showcase them. Maybe it was his choice or Studio policy but either way it made for an ineffective Squat army.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/11 05:44:42


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


 Tawnis wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Interesting, they made a big point to labour "are squats and demiurg the same afterall?" in the article.
Sounds like WarCom to slip up and undermine their own bs lol.


Maybe the way to think about it is we aren’t getting squats we’re getting the leagues of votann. The demiurg and the leagues of votann might both be squats but that is just a human slang word for the particular a human type. I’d think of them like craft worlds and harlequins.

That’s my guess based on what I read


I really hope that's the route they go, so many people have been itching for more Tau Auxilliaries and it would be great to have one faction of Squats that are more Imperium leaning, one other for Tau, and maybe even another for Chaos.


That would be cool. Never knew I needed Nurgle Chaos Dwarfs with giant hats in Space... But I do.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/11 08:26:07


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Sorry I’ve not got round to posting the info from Ork & Squat Warlords.

Not only am I really fairly lazy, but I’m also in the early stages of Marie Kondo’ing all my stuff, so have been well distracted.

Will dig the book out tonight and get going.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/15 19:56:15


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


OK doke. The Cupboard of Crap has been tamed, ready for the House Move. Which means I’ve been able to spelunk my way to my copy of Ork & Squat Warlords.

Are you sitting comfortably? Then I’ll begin. Prepare for the most up to date Squat lore, even though it’s *checks date* 30 years old. Lawks!

Squats

When humans first began to explore the galaxy some of the earliest colonies were settled on the worlds toward the galactic core. At that time the mineral resources of the galactic centre were a rich prize, and thousands of specially adapted mining spacecraft set off to harvest the vast wealth of these inner planets.

The galactic core is characterised by extremely ancient suns which are dim in comparison with the stars of the spiral arms. Around these ancient stars orbit huge, rocky world, rich in minerals but in all other respects barren and lifeless. With very low levels of daylight, and extremely high gravity, these worlds are grey and cheerless, and inhospitable to life.

The original settlers were miners, and they dug homes for themselves in the rocky landscape, creating self contained communities out of exhausted mines. To feed themselves the miners constructed hydroponic tanks to grow nutritious algae which could then be eaten or processed, and the communities quickly became self-supporting.

The high gravity and extremely harsh environment gradually changed the humans that lived there. They grew tougher, more resilient and they also became shorter and squatter. This process took several thousand years and during that time the new race began to develop its own cultural identity. When the galactic core was cut off from the rest of human society by Warp Storms, the inhabitants banded together into an independent confederacy which they call the Homeworlds.

It was about this time that the short, stocky race became generally known as Squats, although they are also called Dwarfs and many of them prefer this term. During this period of isolation the Homeworlds withstood all kinds of trials, from Ork invasions to the rampages of Chaos, environmental disaster and even internal wars between the Squats themselves. The early settlements were enlarged and fortified to turn them into impregnable strongholds.

With Earth and other sources of technology denied to them, the Squats has to develop their own alternative technologies using local materials and sources of energy. As they invented and re-invented machines to keep them alive, the Squats acquired considerable expertise. This gathering of knowledge lead to the creation of the Engineers Guild - a body of individualistic warriors whose technical expertise would would provide future Squat armies with many of their most successful weapons of war.

The Squat Homeworlds have since remained independent ever since, and have fought their own wars against Orks and Chaos. On occasions Squats have fought the Imperium and Eldar, but by and large the Squats prefer to fight on the same side as humans and have no particular source of dispute with Eldar.

The Squats need to trade in order to acquire items not readily available on their own worlds and so they prefer to remain as neutral as possible. Sometimes Squat Strongholds fight each other over points of honour or valuable mining rights but such wars are usually short lived, being brought to a halt by the invocation of of ancient laws or the intercession of other Strongholds. The Homeworlds rely on the Imperium for most of their trade, but they also trade with the Eldar and have even traded with Orks in the far distant past.

The Squats hate Orks with a passion ever since the ravages of Ork Warlord Grunhag the Flayer, whose surprise invasion cost many Squat lives and wiped out several ancient Strongholds. Even today thousands of years after the invasion, the Squats send out expeditions to try and uncover lost remnants of Stringholds believed to have been destroyed by Grunhag’s horde. An epic ballad called The Fall of Imbach reminds younger generations of Squat warriors of the heroism of the Squats in those dark times and the foul treachery of the Ork Invaders.

Squats are hard-working and stubborn. They are an honourable people who take great pride in paying their debts and keeping their word. This means that they are reliable allies but very dangerous foes. If a Squat gives his word to do something he would die willingly in the attempt. Squats have two characteristics which some humans find difficult to understand.

Firstly they are very materialistic. Squats will work hard to acquire money and possessions, and the more important a Squat is the greater his treasure horde will be. When he dies his possessions are divided between his family and so passed on from generation to generation. A family’s treasure is held very dear - it is both a source of wealth and a tangible link to its honoured ancestors.

The second quality which many humans find hard to understand is the Squats’ over-riding obsession with vengeance and honour. Should a Squat be slain his family is honour bound to avenge his death, while any harm done to one family member by an unrelated Squat will bring the whole family together to exact vengeance. Squats stick together and never forget a slight no matter how trivial or unintentional. Their stories and legends abound with examples of lone warriors battling to the death against impossible odds for their family’s honour or of individuals seemingly returning from apparent death or dishonour to exact lasting and bloody revenge on their foes.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Stronghold is the basis of Squat civilisation. A planet might have several Strongholds, but rarely more than half a dozen. The warriors from a Stronghold are its Brotherhoods - so called because of their close blood relationship and ties of vengeance rights. Strongholds sometimes band together into temporary alliances called Leagues.

The leader of a Stronghold is called it’s Lord. The leaders of a Stronghold’s Brotherhoods are called Warlords, and are usually close relatives of the Lord. In battle, each Warlord is accompanied by a Brotherhood, as well as his own personal bodyguard or Heartguard.

When several Strongholds from a League fight together a Grand Warlord is elected to lead the combined forces for the duration of the campaign. Election as a Grand Warlord is one of the ultimate accolades for a Squat warrior and is normally bestowed on the most honoured and revered Warlords. The Grand Warlord leads a disciplined and well armed force mostly made up of Brotherhood warriors, but which also includes fearsome weapons of war developed by the Engineers Guild.

The Engineers Guild is a powerful part of Squat society. It’s knowledge and experience is legendary and it’s leaders know many engineering secrets. Some of the human Technomagi of the Adeptus Mechanicus believe the Squatd have already learned the secrets of stable warp fission, by which the energy of warp space is flared off to produce limitless supplies of energy. If this is true then the Guidmasters guard their secret well, considering it too dangerous to use.

The Guild had already developed the most advanced form of propulsion for spacecraft; a Neoplasma reactor powered by a warp cord held in thrall by a containment field of zero energy. No other race has ever replicated this drive mechanism, the Adeptus Mechanicus giving up on their experiments with warp core technology ever since the infamous Contagion of Ganymede.

Of course, the Squats produce many more conventional machines too, including airships, gyrocopters and gigantic armoured crawlers. All of these machines reflect the landscape of the Squat Homeworlds, where isolated Strongholds are separated by many miles of hostile territory. Shale deserts and chromium drifts, soaring pinnacles and sheer glass-sided crevasses are typical topography on the Homeworlds. To cross this tortured landscape the Squats have huge Land Trains - multi-tracked monster vehicles towing powered track cars of ore, supplies or living quarters. These powerful vehicles have heavy tracks which can support these vast machines on the uncertain ground surface.

All of these Land Trains are armoured to survive meteor showers and violent electrical storms. Many carry weapons and are used by the Squats as armoured battle stations, mobile versions of their Strongholds, able to survive isolation in a hostile world. The largest of the vast machines built by the Squats is the Colossus, which is also made for the Imperium in a version called the Leviathan. These are really big machines, with exceptionally thick armour and crammed with powerful weapons.

Both Land Trains and Colussus are slow moving, and to scout the way ahead and check for enemy movement the Squats use Gyrocopters and airships. These flying machines are the eyes and ears of the sluggish convoys, providing the essential information about troops movements or possible ambushes for the Squat ground forces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’ll be back tomorrow with individual unit entries. Those I need some artistic license on, as there a mix of background snippets and in-game rules.



You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/15 23:05:29


Post by: Flinty


Very cool stuff. Lovely to see the whole thing quoted. I think autocorrect went a bit mental when you were getting the warp core stuff over. It mentions Nepal, but I think that might be a typo


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/16 00:05:15


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Good spot! Corrected to neoplasma


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/16 00:16:23


Post by: Racerguy180


I thought it was named for a region on old Terra???


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/16 00:36:35


Post by: Iracundus


I wonder if the neoplasma warp core technology is what is being referred to in WarCom's phrase "some infamous advances the Imperium would consider extremely heretical." When I first saw that phrase I immediately thought of the warp core tech and the contagion of Ganymede. That was AFAIK an attempt by the Adeptus Mechanicus that went catastrophically wrong, leading to the loss of Ganymede.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/16 06:49:51


Post by: mrFickle


I wonder if the squat society will be closer to the emperors atheist vision for humanity.

Also as it been made clear they have retained STC’s, some which the imperium don’t have any more, will GW use the rhino as the basis for a LOV vehicle. I hope not


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/16 08:32:35


Post by: silverstu


Cheers for that. Most that can be pretty much kept for LoV and fleshed out a good bit. I think they have so much to develop for squats in terms of lore and art. What do their space ships look like for example. Their independence from the imperium, high tech and social structure are probably solid points to keep. Biker gangs weren't mentioned and there's no sense of them being smaller imperial guard. The trade angle could be good too.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/16 08:45:20


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


And now? Unit descriptions. As mentioned in my earlier post, what I’m quoting from is a mix of background and rules info. As some rules just aren’t going to be relevant, I’ll skip those parts. Others I’ll leave in if I feel they’re broadly relevant to how Squats fight.

Squat Infantry

Solid and stubborn in defence and relentless in attack, Squats make excellent infantry. Individual Squat infantry squads are highly disciplined and fiercely determined, their pride and sense of honour to both their revered Ancestors and fellow warriors make it impossible for them to be otherwise. Squats are particularly resolute in close combat, refusing to go down without putting up a good fight.

Squats are organised into different units to fulfil specific tactical roles according to their weaponry and status within the Stronghold. There are three types of Squat unit. Warriors, Berserkers and Thunderers

Warriors

Warrior units make up the bulk of Squat Brotherhoods, comprising the younger members of the Stronghold’s War-brethren. The are formed from standard combat squads armed with Lasguns and sidearms, with one Squat in every five man squad carrying a Heavy Weapon such as a missile launcher or heavy Bolter. A Warrior unit is usually normally lead by the Warlord of the Stronghold if the entire Stronghold is present, or a squad of select Hearthguard if the Warrior unit is fighting separately from the rest of the Brotherhood.

Berserkers

Berserkers are made up from attack squads of the most ferocious hand to hand fighters in the Stronghold. Attack squads are armed with bolt pistols, power axes or Chainswords and a variety of grenades. They are expert tunnel fighters and excel a clearing buildings and fortifications ahead of the Brotherhood’s advance. All Squats are doughty fighters in close combat but Squat Berserker units are renowned for their tenacity and courage against the most impossible odds, battling fearlessly against even the mightiest of opponents without thought for their own losses.

Thunderers

Thunderers are the most heavily armed units in a Squat Brotherhood, consisting of heavy squads of hardened veterans carrying heavy weapon. Squat heavy units are exceptional because every Squat in the unit carries a heavy weapon - either a heavy Bolter, a missile launcher or a las cannon. Thunderers provide withering support fire for the Brotherhood on the battlefield, devastating concentrations of enemy troops or tanks and forming strongpoints to hold the battle line.

Warlord and Hearthguard

To guard against dishonourable use of Brotherhood troops by unscrupulous or avaricious Stronghold Lords, a Brotherhood is always lead by a trustworthy relative of the Lord, known as the Warlord. A Warlord is trained from infancy to be a leader and act as a source of great inspiration to the Squat warriors he commands, constantly reminding them of their duty to their ancestors.

The Warlord is accompanied into battle by a bodyguard of close relatives from the warrior aristocracy of the Stronghold. These potent warriors are equipped with lavishly decorated exo-armour and powerful Combi-weapons decorated with traditional patterns in gold and precious stones. Often extra squads of elite warriors known as Hearthguard will take to the battlefield to lead units of Squats. These loyal retainers of the Warlord are magnificently equipped in carapace armour reminiscent of archaic styles and carry a selection of heavy weapons. Though Hearthguard do not operate as a command unit they are still mighty warriors and lead their units from the front, setting an example of courageous conduct to the other Squats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Living Ancestors

Squats typically live for about 300 years but a small percentage live longer. If a Squat survives to see his 400th year, his longevity is greatly increased and he can expect to sr]ur Ive to 800 or more. The tiny proportion of Squats to live to such a great age are treated with enormous respect and become known as Living Ancestors.

Right. I’ve twinged my wrist typing. More to come when that’s settled down.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/16 08:49:30


Post by: Flinty


mrFickle wrote:
I wonder if the squat society will be closer to the emperors atheist vision for humanity.

Also as it been made clear they have retained STC’s, some which the imperium don’t have any more, will GW use the rhino as the basis for a LOV vehicle. I hope not


On the one hand it would be an awesome link to old fluff if all their vehicles were based on the rhino, but given that of all the imperial factions, only the marines and sisters use them any more it seems unlikely. On the other hand, if they still have functioning STCs then they wouldn’t need the rhino, as the systems will be spitting out more specific and optimised designs for them.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/16 17:40:55


Post by: Mentlegen324


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Squats

When humans first began to explore the galaxy some of the earliest colonies were settled on the worlds toward the galactic core. At that time the mineral resources of the galactic centre were a rich prize, and thousands of specially adapted mining spacecraft set off to harvest the vast wealth of these inner planets.

The galactic core is characterised by extremely ancient suns which are dim in comparison with the stars of the spiral arms. Around these ancient stars orbit huge, rocky world, rich in minerals but in all other respects barren and lifeless. With very low levels of daylight, and extremely high gravity, these worlds are grey and cheerless, and inhospitable to life.


This part really makes it easy to have more of them without needing any sort of retcons. The galactic core has more than enough space and resources for them to be established there, and it is said to be mostly unexplored. Just say at some point a group of them split off and set up another small empire somewhere near the core.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/17 11:08:37


Post by: Mr_Rose


 Flinty wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I wonder if the squat society will be closer to the emperors atheist vision for humanity.

Also as it been made clear they have retained STC’s, some which the imperium don’t have any more, will GW use the rhino as the basis for a LOV vehicle. I hope not


On the one hand it would be an awesome link to old fluff if all their vehicles were based on the rhino, but given that of all the imperial factions, only the marines and sisters use them any more it seems unlikely. On the other hand, if they still have functioning STCs then they wouldn’t need the rhino, as the systems will be spitting out more specific and optimised designs for them.

In the original fluff for the STCs, it wasn’t that the STC system could spit out any design you liked, it was that the STC could alter any of its designs to use local materials. So if all you had for fuel was wood, it would give you a Rhino hull with a steam turbine engine. Or if you didn’t have the machine tools and metals for a turbine, then you would get a good old fashioned firebox-and-pipes type.
This, we assume, is why “modern” leman russ hulls can be powered by burning heretics, amongst other things.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/17 12:04:02


Post by: Olthannon


This is great MDG, great to see all this written down. Based on this lore, the look of the new Squats kind of makes a lot of sense


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/17 12:56:29


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’ll get on with the rest in a bit


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/17 14:00:19


Post by: Mr_Rose


 Mentlegen324 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Squats

When humans first began to explore the galaxy some of the earliest colonies were settled on the worlds toward the galactic core. At that time the mineral resources of the galactic centre were a rich prize, and thousands of specially adapted mining spacecraft set off to harvest the vast wealth of these inner planets.

The galactic core is characterised by extremely ancient suns which are dim in comparison with the stars of the spiral arms. Around these ancient stars orbit huge, rocky world, rich in minerals but in all other respects barren and lifeless. With very low levels of daylight, and extremely high gravity, these worlds are grey and cheerless, and inhospitable to life.


This part really makes it easy to have more of them without needing any sort of retcons. The galactic core has more than enough space and resources for them to be established there, and it is said to be mostly unexplored. Just say at some point a group of them split off and set up another small empire somewhere near the core.

Also, being mostly lifeless makes them unattractive to the Tyranids as well. Pretty sure there’s several places where the Kin of the Leagues are the only sentient life and other than their hydroponic algae, the only life, period. Would make a good hiding spot. Heh, maybe that’s it; instead of being eaten, the Leagues just socially isolated themselves from the rest of the galaxy until the infestation passed them by. And the Imperium didn’t generally notice because the xenotelecommunications (friendly) department of the Adeptus Terra is so low priority and understaffed that the In Tray is only looked at in shifts, once every century or so…


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/18 18:31:00


Post by: Segersgia


Found what I believe is the most recent mentioning of Squat background fluff: Necromunda; The Book of the Outcast.

Ragnir Gunnstein was born a noble of the Mjolnir Stronghold on its home world of Valskalf and was destined to have his name written in the sagas of his people. On the eve of his one hundredth year, however, Ragnir fell into a fratricidal blood feud with a brother Hearthguard, and was exiled from Mjolnir for all time.


So Hearthguard are still a thing atleast.

EDIT:

Dare I suggest that Valskalf and the Mjolnir Stronghold might be a hint at a major faction within the Leagues?


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/21 13:41:42


Post by: Olthannon


 Segersgia wrote:
Found what I believe is the most recent mentioning of Squat background fluff: Necromunda; The Book of the Outcast.

Ragnir Gunnstein was born a noble of the Mjolnir Stronghold on its home world of Valskalf and was destined to have his name written in the sagas of his people. On the eve of his one hundredth year, however, Ragnir fell into a fratricidal blood feud with a brother Hearthguard, and was exiled from Mjolnir for all time.



So Hearthguard are still a thing atleast.

EDIT:

Dare I suggest that Valskalf and the Mjolnir Stronghold might be a hint at a major faction within the Leagues?


That's a neat little find, very interesting that this is newer Squat lore. When did this book come out?


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/21 14:52:50


Post by: xerxeskingofking


 Olthannon wrote:
 Segersgia wrote:
Found what I believe is the most recent mentioning of Squat background fluff: Necromunda; The Book of the Outcast.

Ragnir Gunnstein was born a noble of the Mjolnir Stronghold on its home world of Valskalf and was destined to have his name written in the sagas of his people. On the eve of his one hundredth year, however, Ragnir fell into a fratricidal blood feud with a brother Hearthguard, and was exiled from Mjolnir for all time.



So Hearthguard are still a thing atleast.

EDIT:

Dare I suggest that Valskalf and the Mjolnir Stronghold might be a hint at a major faction within the Leagues?


That's a neat little find, very interesting that this is newer Squat lore. When did this book come out?


a few years ago, when they produced the models. it was the first time since basically the squatted squats that any offical production actaully acknowledged the existiance and canonicity of the squats. retrospectively, it was first hint of the eventual return of them.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/22 16:17:24


Post by: xerxeskingofking


So, gw just dropped a little lore teaser :

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/22/the-leagues-of-votann-are-coming-but-what-actually-is-a-votann/


Some interesting tibits in their



You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/22 16:25:04


Post by: KingGarland


So each individual "society" within the leagues has a super computer at its center making all its decisions but each is starting to go haywire.

I wonder if these things are related to the men of iron or the older men of stone.

I could see an overarching story point being the leagues efforts to find more data or new cores entirely.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/22 23:26:48


Post by: Olthannon




See now that has me more excited than before. That artwork looks awesome and it really nails "Dwarves in Spaaaaaceee".

More importantly, sounds like they have AI in their midst. Which is bad ass.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/22 23:35:44


Post by: Iracundus


I don't think it will be ubiquitous AI everywhere. Sounds more like the old science fiction trope of the gigantic supercomputer that one asks for answers like supplicating an oracle. If it takes decades or centuries to get an answer, I don't see them asking the Ancestor Core for anything other than the most important questions. Maybe they are aware too that the more they ask, the faster the degeneration.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/22 23:47:11


Post by: Gert


Leagues of Votann M41
Spoiler:

*yes I stole this joke, no I am not sorry*


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/22 23:48:36


Post by: DeadliestIdiot


In b4 the votann replies with 42


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/22 23:50:29


Post by: Iracundus


Maybe the degeneration for at least one core is because somebody long ago asked them the Last Question or to calculate out pi, and all these thousands of years it has been working on the task, using up more and more resources causing its slowdown.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/23 00:50:34


Post by: Grey Templar


Nah, the computers are actually just running with a bazillion tabs open on Chrome because the old dwarves keep telling the young ones to not close any of the tabs because they're working on stuff. Generations of never closing tabs has resulted in a total mess, plus some dunce also left a minecraft server running with unlimited chunk render and nobody has tabbed back in yet to shut it down.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/23 05:21:32


Post by: KingGarland


Gert wrote:Leagues of Votann M41
Spoiler:

*yes I stole this joke, no I am not sorry*


That was my first thought to.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/23 18:45:55


Post by: Olthannon


Iracundus wrote:
I don't think it will be ubiquitous AI everywhere. Sounds more like the old science fiction trope of the gigantic supercomputer that one asks for answers like supplicating an oracle. If it takes decades or centuries to get an answer, I don't see them asking the Ancestor Core for anything other than the most important questions. Maybe they are aware too that the more they ask, the faster the degeneration.


I mean I don't think that either? It seems like there's one ancestoputer in each League that they revere.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/04/23 21:17:07


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Apologies again for my frankly lack lustre efforts at sharing the info from Ork & Squat Warlords.

I’m in the middle of a house move, and working from home so sadly I’ve been distracted.

Hopefully I can do some more tomorrow. I’ll likely copy/pasta the Living Ancestor stuff post as there’s a bit more to come on that particular entry.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/07 15:23:28


Post by: xerxeskingofking


so, the necromunda reveals yesterday had a bunch of squat pioneers. Of note for this thread, these squads are explictly NOT Kin of the Leagues of Voltann, but a seperate squat linage that is settled on Necromunda.

exact wording:

Yes, they’re called Squats – the only ones in the galaxy who still use the name (that we know of). They are distant relatives to the Leagues of Votann – descendants of the explorers who left the home worlds and settled on Necromunda. While they’re not part of the Leagues, we’re sure they’d still get on with the Kin


SO, this opens up several possibilities, including that the Diemburg are in fact also squats of a seperate lineage al la the craftword/dark eldar. it also allows for imperial squats to be a future option in a future Imperial Guard codex.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/07 19:08:55


Post by: mrFickle


xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, the necromunda reveals yesterday had a bunch of squat pioneers. Of note for this thread, these squads are explictly NOT Kin of the Leagues of Voltann, but a seperate squat linage that is settled on Necromunda.

exact wording:

Yes, they’re called Squats – the only ones in the galaxy who still use the name (that we know of). They are distant relatives to the Leagues of Votann – descendants of the explorers who left the home worlds and settled on Necromunda. While they’re not part of the Leagues, we’re sure they’d still get on with the Kin


SO, this opens up several possibilities, including that the Diemburg are in fact also squats of a seperate lineage al la the craftword/dark eldar. it also allows for imperial squats to be a future option in a future Imperial Guard codex.


It also suggests that the “squats” were eaten by the nids, this will be proper lore, and the the LOV were a totally different group of the same species that were not part of that oblivion.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/08 14:16:18


Post by: Andykp


In the original fluff their were many leagues, maybe only the votann one survives and squats and the rest are a divergence from now defunct leagues?


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/08 22:25:32


Post by: Pilum


Had a quick scan, couldn't see one thing I'm sure I remember; a squat was not allowed to join one of the Brotherhoods until he had raised two sons to adulthood (about 60, 70 iirc).


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/09 05:58:47


Post by: xerxeskingofking


Andykp wrote:
In the original fluff their were many leagues, maybe only the votann one survives and squats and the rest are a divergence from now defunct leagues?


nah, they keep referring to them as the LEAGUES of Voltann, plural. I believe that "league" will be their subfaction title, and each league is based around an ancestor core.

though that doesnt stop the squats on necromunda form being refugees form a destroyed league, of course. possibly even a league whoose homeworld was eaten by the nids.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/09 10:50:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


mrFickle wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, the necromunda reveals yesterday had a bunch of squat pioneers. Of note for this thread, these squads are explictly NOT Kin of the Leagues of Voltann, but a seperate squat linage that is settled on Necromunda.

exact wording:

Yes, they’re called Squats – the only ones in the galaxy who still use the name (that we know of). They are distant relatives to the Leagues of Votann – descendants of the explorers who left the home worlds and settled on Necromunda. While they’re not part of the Leagues, we’re sure they’d still get on with the Kin


SO, this opens up several possibilities, including that the Diemburg are in fact also squats of a seperate lineage al la the craftword/dark eldar. it also allows for imperial squats to be a future option in a future Imperial Guard codex.


It also suggests that the “squats” were eaten by the nids, this will be proper lore, and the the LOV were a totally different group of the same species that were not part of that oblivion.


I’m not sure that really follows from what I’ve seen?

I see it more as galactic migration. Consider London, where I currently am. It’s wonderfully multicultural, with folk and communities from every corner of the world. 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation descendants meld their historical culture with British culture. Yes they may well be bilingual, or at least conversational in their ancestral tongue - but even then, they’d stick out as Similar, But Other when visiting their parents/grandparents/great grandparents country of origin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sod it, I can use myself as a peculiar example.

I’m Scottish by Birth and Heritage. Born and raised in Edinburgh to the age of 11, when we moved to South East England.

I’ve now been in England coming up 31 years. Culturally? I’m….not entirely sure how to define myself. I do consider myself largely Scottish, and certainly not English. British doesn’t quite cover it. This uncertainty comes from my already somewhat romanticised view of “Home”. And whilst I’ve still a noticeably Scottish accent, it’s not terribly Scottish, and people can struggle to place it unless I’m talking very fast, or I’ve been drinking or talking to another Scot. Almost the “Scots think I’m English, English think I’m Irish” type stuff.

If I’d had kids, they’d know about their Scots roots, because of course they would. But would they truly be Scottish? I say no. British sure, English by definition. But not Scottish, because it’s more than just your blood, it’s the culture and folk you’re brought up around and their collective outlook on life, informed by previous generations.

Squats on Necromunda could be akin to the US thing (which seems weird to me, but to each their own) of “my great grandad was X therefore I am X too”. Absolutely certain of it, but looked askance by people who happen to be X by birth.

I’m aware this is close to “No True Scotsman”. But it’s not meant to be!


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/09 11:52:46


Post by: Mr_Rose


Tragically missed opportunity to use “no true squatsman” there.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/09 12:12:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Mr_Rose wrote:
Tragically missed opportunity to use “no true squatsman” there.


No! Bad Mr_Rose! Dirty Mr_Rose! In your bed, on your rug!

Dirty boy!


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/09 12:41:42


Post by: CaffeineIsGood


I think you'd probably be right (in my head cannon at least), I could kind of imagine them as a sort of jewish community, where there's a lot of organization and celebration of their survival as a people, but maybe some deeper differences within that circle, where they have very different views regarding the emperor. (like; was their AI-core's last command to serve the emperor, worship the emperor, or seek to use the emperor until they could reestablish, etc)

My only thought is that maybe they'd be just a little too much genetic difference between a squat and a human whereby maybe they can't breed, or breeding is rare, or the offspring are infertile like mules, which leads to a lack of cross-pollination and stronger them/us divides.
(off topic: Honestly I've often half thought they should do similar with the eldar, they're a bit too human for something outside of star-trek to not be a strain of humanity, and I get there's explanations for that but it feels like 40k could have applied occam's razor and just had the imperium, dwarves and elves share roots, with the eldar diverging a little more so.)

The Demiurg personally always seemed to be xenos, I'll be maybe a little disappointed if that's no longer the case, as it kind of fills in more of the universe with human faces rather than alien ones, but then I guess GW would be hard to persuade into doing another xenos faction, even if it was a sub-faction of Tau. Best case for me might be if they were a species of mutants with a less human appearance.

Spoiler:




You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/10 15:48:10


Post by: Arcanis161


Looks like the Leagues are also a cloned people. Not clones as in clones of each other or of a specific genetic template, but as in each individual is tailor made from a cloneskein (which looks like some kind of mutable template) and is more heavily GMO'd than the vegetables at the grocery store:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/10/the-lore-of-the-leagues-who-are-the-kin-and-where-do-they-come-from/


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/10 16:02:20


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I rather like that. Eugenics by way of selective cloning.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/10 18:21:40


Post by: princeyg


Ok, so as someone who is quite possible the same age as Grotsnik (I know, I know I'm probably older), i gotta say, I really like the new approach. After all, being honest about it, It really was only the epic system in which squats were popular (due to their really really cool superheavies and gyrocopters).

When the GSC came out I thought "OOOOHHH, someones read an actual copy of "Heavy Metal"!!!, [even though its in french] BUT.. these new squats are very much what we in the early 80's thought sci-fi was gonna be.

Conclusion...GW finally decided they've had enough of ripping off the younger generation and is now going full on "aim at the Douglas Addams generation".

I like the new background, I like the new aesthetic.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/10 19:42:00


Post by: mrFickle


I like the cloning aspect, I wonder how they will compare to an astartes and if there are shared roots in their cloning tech and the emperors genetic experiments.

It also sounds like they can have their genes upgraded in reward for acts of bravery etc.

I also like the fact that the LOV are proving that the emperor and all his deeds were not needed for humanity to survive in the galaxy. No need to go on a galaxy wide conquest and genocide.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/10 20:09:08


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


More important, there’s the inherent implication that other Abhumans were, ahem, Intelligent Design to better suit colonists to planets.

The further implication is therefore the ancestors of the Felinids were just Space Weebs, possibly exiled from Earth for being a bit weird.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/10 20:52:00


Post by: Lord Zarkov


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
More important, there’s the inherent implication that other Abhumans were, ahem, Intelligent Design to better suit colonists to planets.

The further implication is therefore the ancestors of the Felinids were just Space Weebs, possibly exiled from Earth for being a bit weird.


Not to mention that it lines up very much with what Abnett implied about Fenris, plus some of the weird and wonderful human civilisations encountered in the HH series.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/10 20:54:40


Post by: Iracundus


mrFickle wrote:
I like the cloning aspect, I wonder how they will compare to an astartes and if there are shared roots in their cloning tech and the emperors genetic experiments.

It also sounds like they can have their genes upgraded in reward for acts of bravery etc.

I also like the fact that the LOV are proving that the emperor and all his deeds were not needed for humanity to survive in the galaxy. No need to go on a galaxy wide conquest and genocide.


A true Imperial would probably argue that the Kin are no longer human. But I agree with your point. The existence and life of humans on alternative paths, such as those that now follow the Greater Good of the Tau (several generations now since the Damocles Crusade), or the Kin, show that there were/are other paths to survival beyond just the Emperor's way. Different ways, with some tradeoffs perhaps (such as humans being junior partner or subservient to the Tau), whereas it seemed the Emperor wanted to have it all: a dominant humanity that had immense psychic power with none of the downsides.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/10 21:11:39


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


mrFickle wrote:
I like the cloning aspect, I wonder how they will compare to an astartes and if there are shared roots in their cloning tech and the emperors genetic experiments.

It also sounds like they can have their genes upgraded in reward for acts of bravery etc.

I also like the fact that the LOV are proving that the emperor and all his deeds were not needed for humanity to survive in the galaxy. No need to go on a galaxy wide conquest and genocide.


Interesting point. But allow me to offer a soft counter if I may.

Whatever they did during The Long Night, since the Great Crusade kicked the ever loving snot out of multiple Xenos and other horrors, and The Imperium came to act as a lodestone of Xenos and Chaotic aggression, folk such as the Leagues of Votann have benefitted, at least second hand, from The Emperor’s plan, botched as it was.

Consider Ullanor, and what that meant for Orks. From what we’re told that was a Waaaagh! of, well, critical mass. Colossal Orks on a rampage, pretty much wiped out to the point there’s an argument we’re it not for the Heresy, Orks could’ve been largely prevented ever gathering in large numbers ever again.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/10 21:18:33


Post by: princeyg


I \lke the new look.

BUT!! What i like more is that we heve NEW stuff to talk about!!

THE only time i remember being this excited about 40k background, was when Dark Eldar turned into Drukhari!! Its great!!! (I'm not a cartoon tiger)



You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/11 06:31:53


Post by: mrFickle


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
I like the cloning aspect, I wonder how they will compare to an astartes and if there are shared roots in their cloning tech and the emperors genetic experiments.

It also sounds like they can have their genes upgraded in reward for acts of bravery etc.

I also like the fact that the LOV are proving that the emperor and all his deeds were not needed for humanity to survive in the galaxy. No need to go on a galaxy wide conquest and genocide.


Interesting point. But allow me to offer a soft counter if I may.

Whatever they did during The Long Night, since the Great Crusade kicked the ever loving snot out of multiple Xenos and other horrors, and The Imperium came to act as a lodestone of Xenos and Chaotic aggression, folk such as the Leagues of Votann have benefitted, at least second hand, from The Emperor’s plan, botched as it was.

Consider Ullanor, and what that meant for Orks. From what we’re told that was a Waaaagh! of, well, critical mass. Colossal Orks on a rampage, pretty much wiped out to the point there’s an argument we’re it not for the Heresy, Orks could’ve been largely prevented ever gathering in large numbers ever again.


Good argument but the imperium went on an agressive campaign to eliminate or subjugate all xenos in the galaxy, regardless of wether or not they actually posed a threat. Many human civilisations were destroyed because they would not comply and the megarachnids, for example, weren’t going to hurt anyone but they were attacked becuase their existence was considered an abomination.

So if there is only war in 41st millennium, it’s becuase the imperium started all the wars. Maybe.

The ork waaaaaaagh might be an exception as Orks seeks out conflict.

But how many civilisations were under threat from chaos? The civilisation where the anathema was stolen from seemed to have it under control, and the Lear were doing alright until the EC showed up. It’s the rampant, violent expansion of humanity that has fuelled chaos. And if there was no great crusade there would be no abbadon the despoiler to cause the great rift.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/11 09:57:57


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


There’s the argument that accepting Imperial Compliance didn’t equate to accepting Mechanicum Compliance - though I guess that is not exactly black and white.

From what we’ve seen there’s at least a suggestion the Leagues are kind of akin to Ultramar, in that they’re an organised coalition of planets and civilisations. Their exact level of internal unity is of course unknown right now.

Had they been discovered during the Great Crusade (and right now we don’t know either way for certain on that count), I think their expertise and tech level would’ve appealed enough for Special Treatment. After all, the Core Worlds are generally said to be super rich in resources, and the Leagues seemingly (presumably?) adept at exploiting and harnessing those resources. So an aggressive, rather than potentially negotiated, compliance might’ve done more harm than good.

Plus, given ongoing reliance on Navigator Houses? I’d strongly argue the option to simply genhance humans to match their League equivalent. Both are of course the result of genhancment in the past, but to be able to make them to order would break the power of the Guild Houses, which may have an appeal unto itself.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/11 09:58:46


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


mrFickle wrote:


But how many civilisations were under threat from chaos? The civilisation where the anathema was stolen from seemed to have it under control, and the Lear were doing alright until the EC showed up. It’s the rampant, violent expansion of humanity that has fuelled chaos. And if there was no great crusade there would be no abbadon the despoiler to cause the great rift.

Ask the Eldar about how Chaos isn't a threat to them


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/11 11:23:46


Post by: Mr_Rose


Yeah the Anti-Xenos thing was officially because aliens are a (direct military) threat but it was actually because aliens accept and even revere chaos which means they fuel it which makes them a threat to ultimate victory (over chaos). If they could have been persuaded to drop their millennia old religions and sincerely embrace the Imperial Truth things might have gone otherwise. But probably not because the emperor was kind of an ass and a colossal fool.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/12 04:17:35


Post by: Grey Templar


Well, the anti-Xeno is more because aliens cannot be trusted. You can't trust that an alien won't eventually turn on humanity because they're aliens.

It's really just common sense in the 40k setting. Humanity has learned over the last 40k years that aliens are not good. It's been burned into humanity's DNA at this point, just like how you can't trust AI.

The Emperor only ever cared about humanity, and even then only in the general "as a species" sense. Trying to get aliens on-board too was just out of the question.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/12 05:12:15


Post by: mrFickle


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
mrFickle wrote:


But how many civilisations were under threat from chaos? The civilisation where the anathema was stolen from seemed to have it under control, and the Lear were doing alright until the EC showed up. It’s the rampant, violent expansion of humanity that has fuelled chaos. And if there was no great crusade there would be no abbadon the despoiler to cause the great rift.

Ask the Eldar about how Chaos isn't a threat to them


The eldar birthed slaneesh through their own excess and decadence, slaneesh did not corrupt the eldar


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/12 06:01:42


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


mrFickle wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
mrFickle wrote:


But how many civilisations were under threat from chaos? The civilisation where the anathema was stolen from seemed to have it under control, and the Lear were doing alright until the EC showed up. It’s the rampant, violent expansion of humanity that has fuelled chaos. And if there was no great crusade there would be no abbadon the despoiler to cause the great rift.

Ask the Eldar about how Chaos isn't a threat to them


The eldar birthed slaneesh through their own excess and decadence, slaneesh did not corrupt the eldar


Feedback loop. As Slaanesh coalesced, it influenced its feeders. As it grew in strength toward ‘birth’, so did the strength of that influence. So the initial excess? Sure. And I’d accept it wasn’t an intentional influence. But I’d strongly argue it did influence their further corruption.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/12 07:23:05


Post by: Flinty


Warp shenanegans. Once Slaanesh was birthed heshethey had always existed, guaranteeing hishertheir own birth by the fall of the Eldar


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/12 07:41:51


Post by: mrFickle


Ok it happened to the eldar, still doesn’t give the imperium a licence to wipe out all other xenos. And then imperium weren’t fighting Choas during the great crusade as almost no one knew about them.

Looking at the LOV it looks like they engineer the connection of the warp out most of them so that only a few of them have it for pertinent jobs. So the species as a whole is probably not at threat from choas


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/12 07:47:26


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


mrFickle wrote:
Ok it happened to the eldar, still doesn’t give the imperium a licence to wipe out all other xenos. And then imperium weren’t fighting Choas during the great crusade as almost no one knew about them.

Looking at the LOV it looks like they engineer the connection of the warp out most of them so that only a few of them have it for pertinent jobs. So the species as a whole is probably not at threat from choas


It also suggests they can go to being a psychic race if needs be. Remember, it’s not Psykers that are the problem as such. It’s emerging, untrained Psykers, unaware of their powers, and/or unable/unwilling to control them.

Depending how adept the Leagues are with that tech (the article is vague, but to me suggestive it’s something they can do, but don’t necessarily fully understand), they could examine the genome of successfully trained Sanctioned Psykers to find if there’s some difference between them and the sort of Psyker liable to explode, and if so programme that difference in as well, resulting in, theoretically, naturally more stable and therefore useful/trustworthy Psykers.

God I’m enjoying this. Never happier than when we’ve tidbits of background to speculate on!


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/12 16:49:25


Post by: Grey Templar


mrFickle wrote:
Ok it happened to the eldar, still doesn’t give the imperium a licence to wipe out all other xenos. And then imperium weren’t fighting Choas during the great crusade as almost no one knew about them.

Looking at the LOV it looks like they engineer the connection of the warp out most of them so that only a few of them have it for pertinent jobs. So the species as a whole is probably not at threat from choas


It does give them an excuse. You can't be sure that a new alien race won't contribute to chaos in some way, so the only way to be sure is to wipe them out.

Weather this is morally justified is different from it being logical. Anything can be logical depending on your point of view and what you view as important. Anything can be morally justified depending on your morals. The Imperium doesn't consider aliens as having any more rights than animals, and most aliens reciprocate that view. It's nothing different than wiping out mosquitoes because they spread malaria.

The alien angle is also kinda irrelevant when it comes to the Squats because they are abhumans, not xenos.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/12 18:58:09


Post by: xerxeskingofking


 Grey Templar wrote:

The alien angle is also kinda irrelevant when it comes to the Squats because they are abhumans, not xenos.


so, mutants, barely worthy of continued existence, then?


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/12 19:21:40


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


xerxeskingofking wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

The alien angle is also kinda irrelevant when it comes to the Squats because they are abhumans, not xenos.


so, mutants, barely worthy of continued existence, then?


Ahhh….their background precludes them from being mutants entirely. At least, in rational terms.

In Crusade era terms, they’re genhanced, as were the Astartes, and a great many folk in what was The Imperial Army, to some degree or other.

What is truly delicious to my fluff embedded mind is that we can now argue all Abhumans (stable and unstable) are therefore the result of Genhancement, whether or not they’ve retained the same capacity for genetic tinkering. And by extension, the base template would you and I as modern day pure homosapien Sapien.

Of course we then have the franky mind boggling level of bigotry and ignorance within the Imperium, so all bets are off!


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/12 21:59:52


Post by: Grey Templar


xerxeskingofking wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:

The alien angle is also kinda irrelevant when it comes to the Squats because they are abhumans, not xenos.


so, mutants, barely worthy of continued existence, then?


Yes, but actually no.

Mutants generally refers to humans with unstable mutations. These are worth little more than to be chattel in the mines.

Abhumans are humans with stable mutations that provide advantages. Ogryn are valuable for their strength. Ratlings for their small size, stealth, and overall nimbleness. Squats are similar. A stable and useful branch of humanity. Weather these useful mutations occurred naturally or via deliberate genehancement is irrelevant, only the result matters.

At least that would be the official Imperial stance. Local authorities are free to persecute all mutants the same if they choose.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/14 11:17:31


Post by: silverstu


Just a thought - GW recently described the Kin as "coming out of the Galactic Core" which I think has always been their home world locations. Looking it up on Lexicanum it has high grav/ion storms as well as being rich in minerals and isotopes- which is the established lore. Interesting to me was the note that this region has been greatly effected by the great rift and warp storms making the Imperium doubt anything could survive there [from the Avenging Son novel ].
So obviously its described as previously unmapped and largely unnavigable - so the Leagues could have been well hidden there. The Great Rift could then be what's forced their re-emergence. Perhaps they are going to be space borne after all with the recent art being one of their Stronghold type ships.
Fleeing/relocating would also be a strong driver for conflict with other factions as they see to establish new homelands/territory. Its also a bit of a dwarf -trope of an empire falling to outside forces.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/16 19:04:59


Post by: tneva82


mrFickle wrote:
Ok it happened to the eldar, still doesn’t give the imperium a licence to wipe out all other xenos. And then imperium weren’t fighting Choas during the great crusade as almost no one knew about them.

Looking at the LOV it looks like they engineer the connection of the warp out most of them so that only a few of them have it for pertinent jobs. So the species as a whole is probably not at threat from choas


True. They could of course not do that. Results most likely dead humanity though. Unless you get rid of chaos eventually it wipes you.

Of course who says humanity deserves to survive? But wonder wonder emperor(being part of humans) prefers humanity to survive over being wiped out.

But as is it's moot point. Humanity(including squats) lost. It's slow fight to death and all doomed to extinction.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/16 19:11:41


Post by: xerxeskingofking


so, a tiny tibbet of info here, but in the recent warcom article talking about the necromunda squats mech/walker thing, we have a squat/kin name, specifically "Valya Vartijan, of the Svardhol mining clan". That name, for me at least, has strong Scandinavian vibes, implying a more "Viking" take on the Kin that the now classic "scots/northern english" dwarves of Warhammer fantasy.



link to the orignal article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/16/the-squats-make-battlesuits-out-of-mining-equipment-and-corpses-out-of-other-gangs/


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/16 19:41:10


Post by: mrFickle


So it’s probably a given that we can expect mor walkers for the LOV. Hopefully they are done well.

I’d expect some big hammers somewhere


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/20 13:20:20


Post by: xerxeskingofking


New article, on weapons

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/20/lore-of-the-votann-ancient-quasi-divine-machine-intellects-make-for-decent-gunsmiths-it-turns-out/

Of note, they have multiple fully functional STCs, have some ability to progress technologically, and sold ion canon technology to the Tau.


On that latter point, I was under the impression that the it was canon that the tau traded their ion tech off the diemburg. So, confirmation they are a branch of squats? I will get back to you on that.

Also, release is several months away. I'd expect not before September


Edit: 40k wiki confirms that the tau bought the tech off the diemburg. So yes, either that's an official retcon, or the burg are a space based squat line.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/20 15:18:43


Post by: Grey Templar


They will probably just say that Demiurg = Squats.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Demiurg

Honestly, the existing info on Demiurg really looks like they description for the Leagues of Votaan. Almost like they lifted it for the new fluff.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/20 17:45:42


Post by: mrFickle


Perhaps demiurg are some sort of merchant league or a bit like rogue traders.

What I find interesting is that squats are clearly going to be a heavy hitting army and probably that better level of tech will be the explanation of how they have survived as opposed to the imperiums numbers and brute force.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/20 18:06:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Demiurge could be a divergent strain of Squats. Those who chose to prospect asteroid belts rather than planets.

Given Cloneskeins, it could help reconcile their not exactly human appearance.



Eyes and skin could be to help handle solar radiation when there’s no handy dandy planetary atmosphere to intercept it.

Concept sketch by Jes Goodwin,


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/21 09:50:37


Post by: Olthannon


I reckon MDG has the right of it. It's not a retcon just a way to tie up loose ends. The Demiurg were a potential squat lite that never gained traction. I like the idea of having some that look more inhuman and that could be allied to the Tau.

I still want more xenos from 40k and I'd like the Demiurg to have remained separate. But now that Squats are coming back it makes sense to fit them back together again.


EDIT: by the way that picture doesn't work.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/21 10:15:01


Post by: silverstu


Yeah I think the Demiurg definitely look to be an offshoot of the Kin. I think its cool that they seem to have a variety of types of "space dwarf" in the universe, nothings been dropped and each are their own thing. It shapes the Kin as a race as diverse as Eldar, it roots them deeper into the setting. Plus I'm betting they had a range of options mocked up for the return of the squats and while they decided to go with LoV they also decided to do something with the"squat" and Demiurg concepts.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/21 10:37:26


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Can’t get the pic to work :(

But I can definitely see Kin Society being restrictive for some. So Demiurg and Necromundan Squats needn’t be as culturally distinct as say, Dark from Craftworld Eldar.

If we’re right, and we’re seeing different societies within the same overall species, that’s quite the addition.

Wonder if we might see Demiurg join Tau now?


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/21 12:46:50


Post by: Deadnight


The demiurg arealmost certainly the league of votann.

Read what it says about the ion gun in the recent article.

It makes the point the tau were happy to use it and if you rem3mber your old tau bfg lore they got ion tech from the demiurg.








You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/21 15:48:08


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Deadnight wrote:
The demiurg arealmost certainly the league of votann.

Read what it says about the ion gun in the recent article.

It makes the point the tau were happy to use it and if you rem3mber your old tau bfg lore they got ion tech from the demiurg.








Given the implied relationship between Kin and the Imperium? Demiurg may simply be handy dandy go-betweens. A catspaw to sell tech to the Tau, without giving the Ad Mech an excuse to promote Imperial Aggresion.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/21 15:59:37


Post by: silverstu


Its really interesting how the three strands might interact with each other, the Necromunda squats trade with the Demiurg for example. Going to be interesting as well to find out exactly what the relationship the Kin have with the Imperium - they aren't exactly xenos but they aren't looking imperial either..


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/21 16:33:14


Post by: Andykp


Deadnight wrote:
The demiurg arealmost certainly the league of votann.

Read what it says about the ion gun in the recent article.

It makes the point the tau were happy to use it and if you rem3mber your old tau bfg lore they got ion tech from the demiurg.








From the whc article discussing squat history.

“ Were these the Leagues sneaking back into the setting, or a new alien species filling a similar role? We’re still not sure,”

I imagine they will leave it that way. Not something really talked about at this time.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/21 17:24:53


Post by: Deadnight


Andykp wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
The demiurg arealmost certainly the league of votann.

Read what it says about the ion gun in the recent article.

It makes the point the tau were happy to use it and if you rem3mber your old tau bfg lore they got ion tech from the demiurg.




From the whc article discussing squat history.

“ Were these the Leagues sneaking back into the setting, or a new alien species filling a similar role? We’re still not sure,”

I imagine they will leave it that way. Not something really talked about at this time.


Indeed theres that. Theres also the newest article article discussing weaponry:

From the Autoch-pattern bolter to the Etacarn plasma gun, many Kin weapons bear superficial similarities to Imperial weapons, but they’re superior in every respect. There’s a clear shared ancestry between the bolt revolver and bolt shotgun and the bolt weapons of the Adeptus Astartes, but Kin weapons simply work better and hit harder.

Then there are items like the volkanite disintegrators, which use technology since lost to the Imperium, or ion technology, which is proscribed by the Adeptus Mechanicus. That’s their loss – the T’au Empire certainly seemed to appreciate being taught how to harness it


Seems rather convincing to me. I'm open to ut being up-vague-ified again though.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/21 17:57:12


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


To be fair, the Tau being taught it is not the same as the Leagues teaching it to the Tau. At face value, it’s only really telling us it’s the same tech tree as Tau Ion weaponry.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/22 13:13:55


Post by: Andykp


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To be fair, the Tau being taught it is not the same as the Leagues teaching it to the Tau. At face value, it’s only really telling us it’s the same tech tree as Tau Ion weaponry.


That’s was my reading of it too, doesn’t say for sure that they are the same. If the demuirig didn’t exist tat statement still makes sense. They could be getting squatted??


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/22 23:49:05


Post by: Olthannon


I mean it seems a bit weird for them to give that really obvious hint and it not to be about the Demiurg. We know from the lore that is how the Tau got their ion technology.


On a slightly related note: I wonder where the League will end up in the GW store headers? I guess they will be under Xenos armies, because they surely won't be under Imperial.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/23 17:26:06


Post by: mrFickle


 Olthannon wrote:
I mean it seems a bit weird for them to give that really obvious hint and it not to be about the Demiurg. We know from the lore that is how the Tau got their ion technology.


On a slightly related note: I wonder where the League will end up in the GW store headers? I guess they will be under Xenos armies, because they surely won't be under Imperial.


Must be Xenos, the imperium wouldn’t be happy to know that the leagues are selling the Tau superior weapons.

I expect the biggest opposition to the LOV would be the imperial cult as I doubt the LOV have any love for the emperor and seem to be fairly logical in their approach to other species


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/24 11:10:27


Post by: silverstu


mrFickle wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
I mean it seems a bit weird for them to give that really obvious hint and it not to be about the Demiurg. We know from the lore that is how the Tau got their ion technology.


On a slightly related note: I wonder where the League will end up in the GW store headers? I guess they will be under Xenos armies, because they surely won't be under Imperial.


Must be Xenos, the imperium wouldn’t be happy to know that the leagues are selling the Tau superior weapons.

I expect the biggest opposition to the LOV would be the imperial cult as I doubt the LOV have any love for the emperor and seem to be fairly logical in their approach to other species


Yeah I'd expect so -they might ally with the imperium but they seem to stand apart and they don't seem to be aligned with the Imperial cult. But in the past they were independent too but still adopted the imperial cult to ease cooperation with the imperium. But then again the Imperium is depicted very differently since then. I'm hoping for Xenos or Other classification, I'd rather they weren't under the Imperium.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/24 15:07:28


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Honestly them being a force that can ally with like orks and tau would be really fun, orks would love someone they can krump with again, rip ally matrix.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/24 16:47:29


Post by: Flinty


If they follow anything almost slightly like the original Squat fluff, there will be no allying with Orks

Even as a dwarf archetype, no ork fraternising.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/24 16:57:55


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


These guys aren’t really dwarfs, imo. They’re short maybe, but not dwarves by any stretch. Just kinda really short humans who like tech.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/24 17:32:30


Post by: Flinty


And mining… sounds like dwarfs to me


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/24 20:28:43


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


I don't think it's far out there to assume at least one ancestor core that holds a millenia old grudge against Orks because those greenskins stole a pretty hammer 15000 years ago.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/25 09:04:00


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
These guys aren’t really dwarfs, imo. They’re short maybe, but not dwarves by any stretch. Just kinda really short humans who like tech.

That is the definition of a dwarf, in either context.
They are definitely dwarf inspired, and the old fluff for them had them at odds with Orks.
Also just think about it; why would they ever ally with Orks, who would want to constantly fight them, destroy their Ancestor core and steal their tech? There's a reason why the Orks don't really have allies.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/25 14:53:44


Post by: mrFickle


I hope they don’t carry over the squat/ork grudge.

This is from a time before Orks became a genetic weapon, programmed to love fighting and just go off and do it. Bearing a grudge against them is like being angry at the tide for coming in. It’s not interesting anymore.

I’d much rather that they had a big grudge against the nids and do something with that whole speculation point. It would be good if the LOV, maybe using years of ancestors cores proceeding power, have learned something about the nids motivation and history etc and have a bit of a mission to get them them out the galaxy.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/25 14:56:07


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
These guys aren’t really dwarfs, imo. They’re short maybe, but not dwarves by any stretch. Just kinda really short humans who like tech.

That is the definition of a dwarf, in either context.
They are definitely dwarf inspired, and the old fluff for them had them at odds with Orks.
Also just think about it; why would they ever ally with Orks, who would want to constantly fight them, destroy their Ancestor core and steal their tech? There's a reason why the Orks don't really have allies.


My entire point is that they’re trying to claim all the dwarf stuff but not really doing much to actually achieve it. Have you seen the beards on the lads, they’re pale shadows of what a real dwarvish beard should be.
Plus as I’ve pointed out they must have some sort of relation, their model designers ripped the suspension designs on on hover trike right from the megatrakk


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/25 17:28:43


Post by: Racerguy180



These guys aren't Dwarves, they're midgets...

They SHOULD hate orks, carrying a grudge is kind of a very DWARF thing to do.

Other than them being shorter of stature than baseline humans, not too much DWARF stuff going on


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/25 17:35:04


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


mrFickle wrote:
I hope they don’t carry over the squat/ork grudge.

This is from a time before Orks became a genetic weapon, programmed to love fighting and just go off and do it. Bearing a grudge against them is like being angry at the tide for coming in. It’s not interesting anymore.

I’d much rather that they had a big grudge against the nids and do something with that whole speculation point. It would be good if the LOV, maybe using years of ancestors cores proceeding power, have learned something about the nids motivation and history etc and have a bit of a mission to get them them out the galaxy.


So you don't like a grudge against a Bioweapon, instead they should have a grudge against a different Bioweapon?

Orks have individuality, you can hold a grudge against a tribe or a certain Waaaghboss that destroyed your worlds. Tyranids though? You can hate their race but there's no single entity you could hate, and even if Old one Eye killed your beloved best clonefriend, once you kill him he'll come back and kill your new cloned friend once more .


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/25 17:45:38


Post by: Flinty


Valhallans are pretty good at holding a grudge against Orks. Armageddon Ork Hunters are probably pretty grudgy as well.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/25 19:02:42


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


In universe I doubt everyone knows about the Orks' origins. That's more out of universe knowledge.
The Eldar and the Necrons probably know because they were around then, but I doubt they go around dropping lore dumps on people.

But yeah, you can totally hold a grudge against an animal or a natural disaster.
Just ask Ahab.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/25 19:10:35


Post by: Lord Damocles


Yarrick sure is an idiot for such a grudge against a bioweapon.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/25 19:41:10


Post by: mrFickle


 Lord Damocles wrote:
Yarrick sure is an idiot for such a grudge against a bioweapon.


I thought yarrick had a grudge against thrakka specifically.

Besides many good points have been raised against my poorly thought through comment but I still think space dwarves grudge against space Orks is a bit hack. And something different would be more interesting


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/25 19:44:14


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


You know what, I think the new vibe they’re going for with squats would work better as random humans coming from outside the scope of the general 40k space area, they try to use the dwarf vibe despite not tying to it at all.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/05/25 20:43:46


Post by: Olthannon


I dunno, my beard was long and grey and my grudgebook hadseveral appendices.



I think they look pretty Dwarfy to my eyes.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/05 12:01:37


Post by: Segersgia


Not wanting to derail or necro a thread, but I finally found the lore blurb that mentioned the Squats seceding from the Imperium. I am baffled that when discussed, this little blurb of text was never mentioned, since it adds an interesting twist on their original timeline.

Codex Imperial Guard 2nd Edition - pg. 8 - Abhuman Regiments - released in 1995.

The Departmento Munitorium recruits from all worlds in the Imperium regardless of human type. As a result the Imperial Guard includes Ogryns as well as Ratlings. Nowadays there no Squat Stronghold planets in the Imperium itself, the last having seceded during the Age of Apostacy.


As far as I know, this was the final word on them before they got removed in an official publication.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/06 18:28:38


Post by: mrFickle


 Segersgia wrote:
Not wanting to derail or necro a thread, but I finally found the lore blurb that mentioned the Squats seceding from the Imperium. I am baffled that when discussed, this little blurb of text was never mentioned, since it adds an interesting twist on their original timeline.

Codex Imperial Guard 2nd Edition - pg. 8 - Abhuman Regiments - released in 1995.

The Departmento Munitorium recruits from all worlds in the Imperium regardless of human type. As a result the Imperial Guard includes Ogryns as well as Ratlings. Nowadays there no Squat Stronghold planets in the Imperium itself, the last having seceded during the Age of Apostacy.


As far as I know, this was the final word on them before they got removed in an official publication.


This is an interesting little nugget, we still need to know if there’s a difference between the squats of 2nd Ed and the new LOV. I think LOV is wiping the slate clean personally especially as the squats have to keep their AI a secret which wouldn’t have happened if there were any of the LOV actually part of the imperium. Also one would assume they would have had to worship the emperor in some way which doesn’t look like something the LOV would do.

We’ve just seen the Ironkin which are sentient automata and treated equally in society. I suspect we will see hints that the ironkin are related to the men of iron and perhaps the LOV treated them with kindness where humanity treated them as slaves which is why they turned on one group and not the other. But it would suggest that the split happened way way back.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/06 18:38:00


Post by: xerxeskingofking


New lore article:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/06/lore-of-the-votann-introducing-the-ironkin-mechanical-members-of-the-leagues/

Short version: the squats have limited AI robots.

Longer version: they have limited AI robots that are used in a support role on the field of battle (and other areas of society, but they are getting tabletop models). They are intelligent enough to be considered full Kin of the Leagues (ie full citizens with all the rights and responsibilities that entails).


They have other uses of them as well, notably they have AI that can act as a form of navigator, which neatly side-steps the problems of "do they need psykers for warp travel?" Im guessing these AI nav-comps were the original solution to warp navigation before the gene-splicing of the Navigator genes.

Its intresting to see the similarities in the design to the Admech Kastellen robots, and indeed the now "Lost" Heresy types. clearly a shared heritiage.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/06 19:12:24


Post by: Skinflint Games


 Segersgia wrote:
Not wanting to derail or necro a thread, but I finally found the lore blurb that mentioned the Squats seceding from the Imperium. I am baffled that when discussed, this little blurb of text was never mentioned, since it adds an interesting twist on their original timeline.

Codex Imperial Guard 2nd Edition - pg. 8 - Abhuman Regiments - released in 1995.

The Departmento Munitorium recruits from all worlds in the Imperium regardless of human type. As a result the Imperial Guard includes Ogryns as well as Ratlings. Nowadays there no Squat Stronghold planets in the Imperium itself, the last having seceded during the Age of Apostacy.


As far as I know, this was the final word on them before they got removed in an official publication.


Just had a look at my PDF of it and yes it does - and on p82 they mention this:

"The Squats of the Homeworlds are a proud and independent
race that evolved from mankind. They are divided into many
rival Leagues. Although Squats and the Imperium have fought
long wars in the past, the most powerful Leagues are now
firmly allied with the Imperium. At the time of writing this
Codex is planned for future release.
You may include troops chosen from the Squats Codex"

That does sound a bit like a thread they're pulling on


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/08 10:40:05


Post by: Karak Norn Clansman


Design choices such as beards and proportions aside, this is the thorough treatment that Squats deserved to originally get.

Of the same kind the Eldar got during Rogue Trader:

We are at last getting fantasy Dwarfs in space, who are much more than just that.

Asteroid mining, clunky AI, the whole shebang. At last the Games Workshop design studio was inspired by a vision for Squats.

Remember that Squats were sidelined during 2nd edition, despite selling reasonably well, because the studio folks had no good ideas for them. Unlike, for instance, Eldar.

They felt that biker Dwarfs in space who hated Orks were too lacklustre, too close to their fantasy counterpart, without a driving vision, and thus they put Squats in fallow.

Which in hindsight was the correct decision, because now the current studio crew has a vision for Squats. As refreshingly loosely based on their fantasy archetype, yet being something far more, as Eldar were to High Elves during the Rogue Trader era. And I say this as a fan of the original Squats; much as I like them, they were also always lacking something essential in their background to tick properly. And yes, I will convert whatever Leagues of Votann models I add to my Squat army to be more Dwarfy, especially with big beards and runes and Viking ornaments. And 80s Rogue Trader Squat stuff. And Ork trophies.

The current GW studio has hands down surprised me delightfully with how good of a vision for 40k worldbuilding they possess: Just look at the Adeptus Mechanicus, Genestealer Cults, new Sisters of Battle units, everything in Necromunda and now Squats. This isn't just an endless repetitive codex cycle of ever more Space Marine releases. It's an actual exploration of the galaxy, with plastic kits to boot. And it's not a shoddy exploration, but a thought-through one.

What a great time to be alive: The GW studio has turned freewheeling creative again, not unlike the Rogue Trader days, and they are expanding the setting true to its spirit, without breaking the overarching themes (with a caveat that the ongoing Primarch return plot may risk to break it; we'll see). You cannot reasonably expect the Warhammer 40'000 setting to be in such good hands after 35 years of personnel rotation and risk of picking up outside influences for the worse. We'd better count ourselves lucky.

Let's be clear: Long live the current Games Workshop studio!



You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/08 11:34:33


Post by: mrFickle


I agree that the current GW team are doing a great job in terms of the look and feel of the 40k universe, expanding it and making it feel less like a universe full of space marines.

not everything is to my liking but you can please everyone all of the time.

I don't buy a lot of black library as their books tend to be so hit and miss in terms of being a good read but I assume there will be a series exploring the back ground of the LOV and I think I will have to get it.

I think there's a good opportunity for some dark humour with the ancestor cores, e.g. its taken so long to provide an answer they forgot what the question was (not original I know)


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/09 10:02:05


Post by: silverstu


Yep, I think it's fantastic. The new lore/designs seems really well thought out with a good bit of depth. Like how they are translating the feel of dwarfs into a space based race as a very unique culture. The linking in to past/existing lore looks great and the design references look really solid and fresh too. They did similar with the Kharadrons, but look to have taken even that approach a few notches. We have seen so little relatively speaking but it all seems pretty great.
I'm looking froward to seeing what the Black Library come out with too- I'll definitely pick up any LoV books.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/10 09:12:48


Post by: Karak Norn Clansman


@mrFickle: Haha, now that's a fun idea!

Yes, the Kharadrons are excellent Squats straight out of the box:

Spoiler:


I might add that Rogue Trader Squats have good style. Mining helmets with sound dampeners, quilted armour and fun bikers. Aesthetically they were as solid a start as for any faction at the time, and hopefully we will see more of them, as per the Necromunda Squats. It was the background that was lacking when GW took stock of their 40k creations in the 1990s, and realized that something essential was missing, and they had no good ideas at the time. The last hurrah of the original Squat range was in Epic 40'000, complete with land trains and other large warmachines.



Moreover, hobbyist conversions, homebrew 3D-sculpts and additional third party manufacturers may well come cater to different styles of Space Dwarfs, so even if the visual direction of GW does not appeal, a Squat fan will still get an army with rules and bonkers, polished background, regardless of what models and style one sticks to. No need to proxy it anymore. And the GW studio has come up with concepts for hobbyists to further develop, CDO style, if they are so inclined.

As to hatred of Orks, I hope we'll see a good amount of it. After all, those pesky Greenskins want to tow away the League's staked mining asteroids to chuck on a planet?! Grudge on that one.

Also, the return of the Squats was foretold in the very last TTS video released after the IP debacle last summer. Lo and behold its glory.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/10 11:01:44


Post by: silverstu


@karakNornClansman you are so right about the squats getting what eldar got in RT/2nd ed. I remember being so excited by the Eldar Craftwords when they arrived and I have similar feelings for the Leagues.
When the Kharadron arrived in AoS I was gobsmacked by how fantastically different they were and yet still dwarfs. I also thought they took the same approach to squats I'd be all over them and it looks like they have and then some!

Love that animation! Thats kind of what I'd ike squats to be -their own thing, independent and nor slaved to Xenos/Imperium/Chaos. I agree that there is plenty for design room for Alt sculpts to fit different tastes - with new rules they will all easier to use and a single design of squats was never going to please everyone. Personally I'm loving the new designs and also looking forward to kitbashing with Kharadrons.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/10 18:27:53


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


So, the latest Warhammer Community post has the following info on Necromundan Squats.

Warhammer Community Sez wrote: Let’s clear one thing up. Unlike the Leagues of Votann, these guys are called Squats. They came to Necromunda as a clean-up crew in the wake of the Horus Heresy, and they’ve been here ever since – what can we say, the Heresy needed a lot of cleaning up. In the millenia since, the Ironhead Mining Clans have had minimal contact with their cousins in the galactic core.


This very much chimes with my speculation that we might yet see different types of Squat/Kin/Kyn in the background.

Example in the real world? Europeans, Australia and New Zealand, United States of America.

Via colonisation, Australia, New Zealand and the USA (and Canada) share common cultural roots. Yet, each are now very much their own distinct culture, largely United by language, and to a lesser degree religions.

And that’s with just a few mere centuries of existence.

Now, let’s not discuss my example further for fear of heading into P&R.

With Necromundan Squats having been there for millennia? How much, for want of a more accurate term, cultural drift might we think exists?

The article also mentions their greenhorns are a “mere” 40 or 50 years of experience, suggesting they’re long lived by human standards. Which is likely to affect their generation gap accordingly.

Add in the Squat/Dwarf archetype of staunch traditionalists and it may not be quite as far as we might easily expect - but I’m willing to predict it’ll still be significant.

It also makes me think I could’ve been right that Demiurg are another offshoot, their physical differences being less mutation, and more adaptation for particular environs. Certainly if the Imperium hasn’t seen much of the whole species other than Necromundan Squats, having a specialist pool of “wasn’t us, Guv, honest! Don’t even look like us Guv!” folk for Trading Opportunities We Would Rather Deny Because Pissing Off The Imperium Isn’t A Terribly Good Idea.

Time of course will tell. I reserve the right that if I am right, to at all points in the future reference this post as proof I’m not always an idiot.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/10 20:22:13


Post by: mrFickle


What this tells us is that the squats on necromunda must be breeding or have brought the cloning tech used by LOV with them after HH. But I think the cloning tech would be heretical and an excuse to attack some abhumans.

So possibly the shift to cloning by the LOV happened post HH.

If squats, demiurg and LOV are all prospering offshoots of the same species then they really are hardy compared to other species we see


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/10 21:02:25


Post by: xerxeskingofking


mrFickle wrote:
What this tells us is that the squats on necromunda must be breeding or have brought the cloning tech used by LOV with them after HH. But I think the cloning tech would be heretical and an excuse to attack some abhumans.

So possibly the shift to cloning by the LOV happened post HH.

If squats, demiurg and LOV are all prospering offshoots of the same species then they really are hardy compared to other species we see


they are described as basically living apart form humanity in their land train road cities, and as far as i can tell, they use cloning but allow for natural aging a decent variation of gene-stock, so it wouldnt be that obvious to the imperials


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/10 21:17:51


Post by: silverstu


Yeah it definitely looks like there's going to be different offshoots with LoV being the central one. The "minimal contact with their Baltic core cousins" suggests to me that LoV have been away from the setting for a long time and will be re-emerging from isolation.

@mrFickle - they stated that the LoV origins are from cloning so they have been doing it form the start when they were created by the Votann/Ancestors/men of Stone. They might not rely on it now though. Also thinking that the squats get the Land Train, the Leagues will get something else . But nice to have variety ..


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/10 21:50:58


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


To be honest, when it comes to Abhumans? It’s my solid impression that on Necromunda you either don’t care, because you’re far too busy, or you’re Cawdor/Redemption.

Given House Goliath predominantly still rely on Vatborn, and House Escher’s sort of variant thereof the proper name I can’t recall. And so cloning is in itself hardly taboo or not understood on that particular world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And on the Land Trains?

One suspects that they’d have been brought with them from the Homeworlds for the very same reason they existed in Epic - they were effective and efficient means to travel otherwise inhospitable worlds, and be able to take everything it and it’s potential inhabitants can throw at you.

Even with a little extrapolation? You have your Engine car. And all it’s little chickabiddy towed cars can then be detached as needed, into ready made bastions/mining posts with at least some capacity to shift its own arse if needs be.

That’s the sort of thing you don’t just give up. Develop and further refine, sure.

But Necromundan Squats having them is no indication the Votann won’t - or at least won’t have some iteration thereof.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/11 09:47:46


Post by: Olthannon


I reckon perhaps we won't see an exact land train in 40k. I get the feeling the Squats of Necromunda are there for people to get all their hatey "we just want the old look" thing out while the Votanni are the newer, tech look.

I really hope we get demiurg models and that they are sufficiently odd looking.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/11 09:59:04


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


It’s even possible Demiurg are renegades by comparison.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/11 10:40:24


Post by: silverstu


On the Land Trains - I just think they are too big to work on a battlefieldand are more likely to be a battlefield. I mean its like a moving town, even a small single engine would be something like a Jawa sand crawler and a train would be multiples.. and I still think even that would be too small to represent them. So wether the Kin have a version as well is moot.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s even possible Demiurg are renegades by comparison.


Yeah they could be like the Outcast class of Eldar [the rangers/corsairs]- leaving the strict caste system of the Leagues to be more independent though trade/mining/fighting.



You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/12 01:08:29


Post by: Iracundus


The Demiurg could be misidentified as xenos because they are so heavily genetically modified they would appear on cursory inspection to be nonhuman. Maybe they are just the long distance space miner/trader caste.

I mean many in the Imperium have trouble telling the different Eldar branches apart from each other. Maybe they make a mistake in the opposite direction by thinking the Demiurg and the Kin are different when actually they are just castes or branches of the same race.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/14 14:13:11


Post by: Mr_Rose


It occurs to me that the dedication to the Votann would be a good hook for Chaos Squats should that ever be a thing; corrupt one Votann, get instant army of loyal troops free!

Or rather start building an army with corrupted cloneskeins that induce exaggerated dentition along with a twisted mind focussed on living to support industry rather than the industry existing to support the living…


You don’t know squat @ 2022/06/14 16:13:46


Post by: mrFickle


 Mr_Rose wrote:
It occurs to me that the dedication to the Votann would be a good hook for Chaos Squats should that ever be a thing; corrupt one Votann, get instant army of loyal troops free!

Or rather start building an army with corrupted cloneskeins that induce exaggerated dentition along with a twisted mind focussed on living to support industry rather than the industry existing to support the living…


And ancestor core learned about the power of the gods and the warp and realised if it could harness that power it’s could protect its league from the perils of the universe. So slowly it twisted the course of its league into the eightfold path. Or something but I like the idea of an evil ancestor core


You don’t know squat @ 2022/08/22 06:30:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Really quite excited, as those with W+ will get a Loremasters on the Leagues this Wednesday, hence a wee bit of threadomancy to get this one higher up.

Right now we’ve had tidbits here and there, so I’m looking forward to this particular entry.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/08/24 21:10:28


Post by: xerxeskingofking


ok, so a few tibits:

they have confirmed that the cloneskins are gentically diverse gene-tailored creations, rather than straight carbon copies of each other. they inhabit the core, and "straddle the line between abhuman and xenos", in terms of diversion form human baseline. Individual Kin may have a lot of additonal genetic engineering done to specific cloneskins, that add what would be mutations to human eyes, but are simply blessings to the Kin (things like enhanced reflexes, better protection to vacuum, etc). they have psykers, but it appears to be limited to specially chosen cloneskins, and even then is somewhat limited, sheilded by designed nature. Its confirmed they are not immune to corruption, but its exceedingly rare they fall.

the galactic Core is described as inhospitable to most, full of stars in too-close contact, black holes, and other Bad Things that only a race as heavily adapted as the Kyn could survive.

the Iornkyns bodies are not hot swappable: the are as much a part of the unit as the cerebral core, and damage needs to be painstakingly repaired. they are treated as full members of the Kyn. the flesh and blood kyn do not talk of them around humans, but do not deny their nature if pressed (this is implied to have started at least one war between the two factions).

the true nature of the Ancestor Cores, however, is a very closely guarded secret that they freely lie or misrepresent to the Imperials, normally as a article of faith or something similar. It mentions that a new Vontann achieved full sentience only "a millennia ago", so its clearly not true lostech that cant remade, which is intresting. thier is some psychic element to them, as well. only psyker Kyn can truely interact with them (acting as a priest caste), and they shine so brightly to those who know what to look for, the Kin use them for warp navigation in lieu of the Astronomicon.

their are also lesser machine intelligences known as "cogs", which are described as being like "Pets, or familiars", and used for roles that the Imperium might use servitors for.

the Leagues are not static, but change constantly as new ones form and old ones die off or are lost. they mention 5 by name, which i assume will be the named subfactions of the Kin.

their is the greater <something i cant quite make out> League, which appears to be the "defaul" league, in the grey and blues we have mostly seen.

the <something>Hegamony, which is a new, upstart league with a martial leaning, with a black and yellow scheme.

the ymir conglomerate, crafters with rich lands and great skilled makers, with a great deal of high end equipment, and dressed in red

the <something> regulate, a super stubbon "not one step back" league that will fight to the last, regardless of cost. fought with the necrons a lot in recent history. no colour scheme shown

the Trans <something> allience is nomadic league with a higher than normal level of ancestor worship, with a orange scheme.


the great rift has forced the Kyn to leave the core "In numbers not seen in 10,000 years", which implies they were fairly active either during or just after the great crusade/heresy, and have been in splendid isolation for most of imperial history, known of but not worth attacking (though plenty of fighting has happened).


You don’t know squat @ 2022/08/26 09:28:10


Post by: silverstu


Its the Greater Thurian League, the Kronos Hedgemony, Urani-Surtr Regulates and Trans Hyperion Alliance.

I loved all the lore - very dwarf. They are more numerous than the Tau or the Eldar and seem to be pretty formable -Kronos Hedgemony have broken Ork Waaghs and Imperial Crusades. There is some great art too- there is one of a massive hammer shaped ships with shattered imperial cruisers looking very small at it's prow.

So much good stuff- there are a couple fo named Kahls - expecting one to be a special character.
it seems they can do lot on their own without the Votann but the results aren't as a good- there are clone guilds which oversee the Crucibles - they can make new cloneskeins but with shorter lifespans. The Brokhyrs can make new Ironkin too. The Votann also have asked/taken hardware additions so they can/are trying to extend their life. Really interesting that the Votann form a constellation of bright stars in the Immaterium .
The best thing is there was just so much depth of the lore, seems to really fix them in the setting. They have outposts throughout the galaxy but are now expanding out more to gain more territory and resources.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/08/26 15:08:33


Post by: mrFickle


I presume the BL will be doing some LOV novels, will be good to see what life is like and get a bit more details.

Feels like GW are doing a really good job here


You don’t know squat @ 2022/08/26 20:01:41


Post by: Vatsetis


 silverstu wrote:
Its the Greater Thurian League, the Kronos Hedgemony, Urani-Surtr Regulates and Trans Hyperion Alliance.

I loved all the lore - very dwarf. They are more numerous than the Tau or the Eldar and seem to be pretty formable -Kronos Hedgemony have broken Ork Waaghs and Imperial Crusades. There is some great art too- there is one of a massive hammer shaped ships with shattered imperial cruisers looking very small at it's prow.

So much good stuff- there are a couple fo named Kahls - expecting one to be a special character.
it seems they can do lot on their own without the Votann but the results aren't as a good- there are clone guilds which oversee the Crucibles - they can make new cloneskeins but with shorter lifespans. The Brokhyrs can make new Ironkin too. The Votann also have asked/taken hardware additions so they can/are trying to extend their life. Really interesting that the Votann form a constellation of bright stars in the Immaterium .
The best thing is there was just so much depth of the lore, seems to really fix them in the setting. They have outposts throughout the galaxy but are now expanding out more to gain more territory and resources.


Were those all this info came from???


You don’t know squat @ 2022/08/26 20:33:56


Post by: xerxeskingofking


Vatsetis wrote:


Were those all this info came from???



Warhammer plus, games workshops subscription streaming service, did a "loremasters" video on them. its one part a consolidation of the existing lore already revealed about them, but also a significant expansion with all the little tidbits we were talking about.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/08/26 22:18:29


Post by: Vatsetis


Thanks!! Very informative!!


You don’t know squat @ 2022/08/26 22:32:01


Post by: silverstu


mrFickle wrote:
I presume the BL will be doing some LOV novels, will be good to see what life is like and get a bit more details.

Feels like GW are doing a really good job here


Yes I'm hoping for some novels- the lore has a good feel already candid be very keen to grab some novels which flesh it out further.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/09/04 08:57:03


Post by: xerxeskingofking


so, second lore video has dropped. a few more tibits:

The leagues have had such a ork and nid problem in their past the Imperium at large thought they were extinct, hence closing the circle on that element of the lore.

League warp travel is built around short, accurate jumps using psychic computers and the Voltann as nav beacons. The sustained speed is lower than imperial ships manage (one of the few areas that imperials are noted to be ahead of the League), but they dont suffer anything like as much risk, or time dilatation because of it.

They have a very "The strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must" approach to resource acquisition. If they can take it, they will, without care of who might be harmed by it. They have the capability to literally pull worlds apart to get access to wanted minerals, or drain gases straight out of stars and nebulae.

The leagues often trade with the outside galaxy under a range of names, "few of which are of their choosing", which causes confusion as to who, exactly, these xenos are, and is part of the reason they were thought extinct. THEY ARE EXPLICTLY THE RACE THE T'AU KNOW AS THE DEMIURG, and the ones how first sold them Ion technology. the battlefleet gothic Bastion and Stronghold vessals are Leagues of Voltann ships under contract. The Tau are under the impression that these small fleets are all thats left of the Kin, and the leagues, who view all diplomacy as "how can i benefit?", see no profit in enlightening them that they were not all eaten by the nids.

speaking of the nids, the Leagues call them "the bane", and have relocated entire worlds (not populations, ENTIRE WORLDS) to new locations if the cost/benefit analysis is bad enough. that said, they have also been known to dig in and stubbonly hold thier planets for however long it takes, citing the example of the Urani-Surtr Regulates.

the Nids have explictly wiped out a full League, Hive Fleet Leviathan doing the deed. the Kin fed thier dead back into the ancestor core to deny the biomass to the enemey, and the accumulated pain and fear clouded the Voltann's mind, driving it mad. the Nids eat every living thing, but left the Ancestor core alone, alive and buried. The "Mad Core" is still active, but the Voltann do not go near it or use it as a nav point, several tried, all came to ruin.

Relations with the Eldar are arms length and "brisk", the craftworlders are too arrogant, the dark eldar too decadent, and the harlequins just plain crazy. apparantly, they get on fine with the Exodite eldar, which is a intresting tease raising hopes for dino-riding elf cavalry in the future.

chaos is met with "disgust" and they have little time for them. Necrons see them as another upstart race to shift, but are wary of them. The Kins prefered deep mining methods can easily crack open tomb worlds, and the Kin consider the robots rich easy pickings if still asleep, and "shoot on sight" if they are awake.


Orks....are orks. The kin hate them, not only for the obvious "endless menace" reasons everyone hates them, but their endlessly wasteful internal conflicts and shoddy designs are the anathema to the Kins own "practical efficiency" mindset. "A prize for an ork" is a expression the kin use to discribe a worthless thing.


the relations with the Imperial are more of the same: they generally dont interact with the higher levels, small bands float around the imperium more or less as they please (its implied the Voltanns warp tech is very hard to detect and track), and they make deals with minor planetary lords and such for mineral rights when its the quickest route to getting those minerals, but are quite happy to rip a continent apart under the imperials very feet to get to those same minerals if that is the quickest route to riches.

They are known to hire themselves out as mercs for profit, and are generally seen as just another bunch of abhumans by most, no more heretical than ogryns or ratlings. the more educated or zealous think of them as xenos, though, to be treated with only in a "enemy mine" situation (though given the long list of common enemies, this is still a lot of the time).

the Kin consider the Admech "rats, scurrying over a scrap heap", and try to avoid them wherever possible. the admech are explictly unware of the full range of League techology, and the kin will go to "whatever lengths they need to, to keep it that way"

As previously mentioned, the Kin interact with humanity under multiple names, sometimes as the Leagues, others as the Squats, Demiurg, and still other names. It is "Not clear" weather these were separate civilisations of kin, some variant of the Leagues, or some mixture of both. they mention the Alpha Legion infiltrating a automated mining facility of the Demiurg during the Heresy, and mention that the Squat populations of Necromunda & Vordhiem(not sure on that last name?) have been on the planets for as far as the imperials records go back. These kin accept the name squat grudgingly, but coreworlds Kin see it as a insult. they have explictly been isolated for at least 10,000 years and their equipment is not the same as the leagues of the core.


all in all, some very intresting stuff.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/09/05 20:06:01


Post by: mrFickle


The mad ancestor core is a nice touch, if the LOV are popular enough we might get some sort of chaotic (but not chaos) leagues


You don’t know squat @ 2022/09/06 20:30:20


Post by: Iracundus


What do the Leagues actually offer in trade? I mean the Tau got ion technology but other races may not use the same tech base. Exodites for example use little tech and what they do use is based on the same psychoplastics as Craftworld tech. What do the Leagues have to offer Exodites? What do they offer the Imperium besides mercenary services if they also at the same time try to conceal their tech from the Adeptus Mechanicus?

It's curious why the Leagues would have decent relations with Exodites as it would seem Exodites have little to offer except maybe mineral rights over their worlds. I would imagine the Exodites would balk at massive industrial strip mining that is destructive to their Maiden World and World Spirit circuits though. I could see a scenario like the Avatar movie developing.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/09/06 21:56:10


Post by: Flinty


Exotic materials for making pretty things? Eldar do like the pretty things.

While they may not give mining rights for their planet, there may be other bodies in the system that they care less about.


You don’t know squat @ 2022/09/07 06:37:51


Post by: xerxeskingofking


 Flinty wrote:
Exotic materials for making pretty things? Eldar do like the pretty things.

While they may not give mining rights for their planet, there may be other bodies in the system that they care less about.


see, form what the loremaster stuff was saying, they wouldnt bother asking for permission to mine an asteroid....they'd just cruise in system and do it. the only reason they'd bother talking to the current inhabitants is that those inhabitants were strong enough to stop them, or it was physically easier to get permission than to just steamroller it.

the only things i can imagine the Exodites having that the Kin would want would be things like pharmaceuticals or other biologically derived stuff that their normal "rip the planet apart continent by continent" approach would struggle to exploit.

What do the Leagues actually offer in trade? I mean the Tau got ion technology but other races may not use the same tech base. Exodites for example use little tech and what they do use is based on the same psychoplastics as Craftworld tech. What do the Leagues have to offer Exodites?


Most likely exotic materials form the funky stuff happening in the Core, I'd guess. Or more conventional tech to replace or support the traditional eldar stuff.

What do they offer the Imperium besides mercenary services if they also at the same time try to conceal their tech from the Adeptus Mechanicus?


i believe they sometimes trade raw materials with the imperium if thats easier than starting a war. Also, while the Admech are very common thoughout the imperium, that doesn't make them literally omni-present (look at the sucess of the Van Saar at hiding their STC, and a lot of their tech looks like it would pass first glance by a tech priest (for example, the iornkin might just be mistaken for another form of cog or servitor, espically if the tech priest didnt get time to study, their power armour or plasma weaponry appears to mimic imperial equipment via different methods, etc). also, they are often mistaken for Xenos and so studying their tech in detail would then be heresy (not saying it doesnt happen).

most of the really juicy heretek is stuff that isn't going to be seen by outsiders, stuff like the Ancestor cores.