Yeah, I don't like some of the implications there. Especially with some of the terrain being sold under the Necromunda tab. I hope they don't go overboard in the move out to the Ash Wastes.
I don't want to come up short for projects that use the mechanicus and imperialis bases.
GW terrain kits always seem to be changing. I suspect it's because so many people play on tables owned by other people, they never see a need to own their own terrain in any particularly great numbers (me included).
It's going to be a bummer to lose some of these ones, but 3D printing is fairly good at producing things like the Bastion, and there's a reasonably large amount of sources for bunkers and blocky stuff like that.
The Skyshield Landing Pad can go do one, though, it's a really awkward model to both play with and store.
The Bastion is a pretty nice modular piece -- I have two. Scale-wise it's off these days but it's just terrain. Good line of sight blockers and they didn't used to be terribly overpriced even like 3 years ago, but like everything else GW makes it's now way too expensive for what it is. I think it's gone up like 25% in just that time (used to be $45 iirc).
The skyshield landing pad is just really worthless as actual gaming terrain by itself.
If you want them have at them but they're literally at the point where it's cheaper to just buy a 3D printer now, even with all the headaches that entails.
Edit: looks like wall of martyrs stuff and some of the smaller mechanicum bits (haemotrope reactors and thermic plasma regulators) are also going bye-bye. Some overlapping SKUs are also getting removed (currently there's multiple kits that have duplicate mechanicum stuff).
Maybe there'll be some newer terrain released with Guard later this year to replace wall of martyrs? TBH I've never been a fan of it but it's the only "trenches" GW make, and it's very grimdark.
The_Real_Chris wrote: I would get a void shield generator for coolness... if it wasn't £85 for 7 sprues.
As cool as it looks, it's preposterously expensive.
I actually have an Aquila Strongpoint I still haven't built that I got on clearance from a local shop for (and prepare to get really angry at me):
$33 + tax. (I could be off by a couple bucks but I *think* it had a price tag of $110, and I know I got it for 75% off)
I even asked the shop owner if they were sure that was correct -- it had a dot indicating the sale level that someone could have moved so they could come back later and buy it cheap.
Instead of buying plastic terrain, I've been printing stuff from kickstarters and Printable Scenery, and it's just so good and well done that I can't ever justify GW terrain prices again. I'm using FDM which leaves small lines, but it's terrain and I honestly don't notice it unless I look for it. I can sorta understand the argument of not having space for a 3d printer, but on the other hand where are you storing that gigantic GW plastic terrain. . . I can also understand not wanting to learn the ins and outs of 3d printing. It's definitely a small hobby unto itself, but for me it's very much proved worth it with minimal time investment. Next I gotta take the leap for a resin printer, but I promised myself I wouldn't do that until I finish building and painting the plastic that I already have lol.
Nevelon wrote: Someone check in with H.B.M.C and see if he’s OK. This kind of news can not be good for his health.
Nah he is fine...he now has access to an FDM printer.................oh FETH, no wait i think it is worse.
War scenery and sacrusmundus are about to get a lot of love. more 40K themed terrain than GW ever had dreams about and alternatives to all the stuff GW is discontinuing.
You can do some fun things with the Bastion kit. It'll be a shame to see that, the Skyshield and the Heamotrope Reactor go away.
I'm pretty good for terrain at the moment (that ain't even a quarter of it... ), and as aphyon mentioned above, friend of mine just got a FDM printer, so that's going to be incredible.
Still... I did just go searching for someone who has a Heamotrope Reactor in stock...
As far as the Void Shield Generator goes, a little while back I managed to pick up the Hive Shield box, which, as you can see, has two of them. It cost a bunch, and cost heaps to ship it, but, despite that, it was still $200 cheaper than buying just the two Void Shields Generators locally. They cost loads. Kinda silly really. Annoying kits to put together as well. I can only imagine the polystone one I have - the first one GW brought out as a Ltd. Edition - will be even harder.
Not sure what happened to it in the end, but the last time I worked GW, I of course took advantage of staff discount and made a mahoosive building out of the bastion kit.
I think I left it in the care of my old store, which remains (for now, as I’m moving) just up the road.
I really must drop in and see if I can grab it back.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I just wish the Shrine of the Aquila was still around for one last hurrah. I need two more of that kit...
I feel the same. I had a plan of making a square tower using just four of the large aquila walls but in the end I didn't bother hunting another two kits. Large arched windows would have been useful to make bridge arches, with the lower walls cut off to make generic low detail wall sections.
I am not particularly sad to see Bastion and Skyshield landing pad go. They were ok kits but I still haven't painted the bastion I bought more than ten years ago.
If old kits are discontinued to make new room for new kits, that's a direction I can live with as long as we are given a heads up. I missed on some Sector Imperialis buildings because I thought they would be available for longer.
jullevi wrote: I feel the same. I had a plan of making a square tower using just four of the large aquila walls but in the end I didn't bother hunting another two kits. Large arched windows would have been useful to make bridge arches, with the lower walls cut off to make generic low detail wall sections.
Heh. That's what I had planned, only I was going to use spare Razorback top plates to turn the windows into turrets.
I know these are made overseas, perhaps GW has suddenly lost a contract with a factory in China?
I know that they can be hostile to work with, I seem to recall that Privateer Press wound up with a bunch of their moulds being held by a factory who wouldn't let them go - though I don't recall much of the ins and outs of that being explained beyond that.
Otherwise GW are odd when it comes to terrain, even to the point of printing it overseas in the first place when they've got all the infrastructure in-house to do it.
The other aspect is perhaps they are rebranding the terrain boxes and its just new products meaning new product codes for their back-end causing the "old" to be last chance only to see it return with a new box in a weeks time
There’s been a steady stream of kits being discontinued by GW recently. I really don’t get the business decision for it, is there stock management system so bad they can only keep so many kits for sale at a time?
Tamereth wrote: There’s been a steady stream of kits being discontinued by GW recently. I really don’t get the business decision for it, is there stock management system so bad they can only keep so many kits for sale at a time?
To be fair to GW, they keep some really old stuff on sale for a REALLY long time. Way longer than other companies.
Sooner or later everything gets discontinued from all manufacturers. Eventually the equipment make a certain product is out of date and it's way more cost effective to get rid of that equipment than maintain it to produce those 10 old miniatures from 30 years ago that like 5 people buy a year.
I can't honestly say the reason why any particular kit gets discontinued, but it always comes down to money in the end, one way or the other. Maybe someone damaged a mould; maybe the kit didn't sell well; maybe the spin caster broke and you can't get parts for that particular model anymore, maybe the chinese factory lost the die, etc etc etc.
I think GW is keen to get rid of Finecast. The recent Eldar classic print on demand are all metal even though several were made accessible as finecast.
And it makes sense, there's basically zero good marketing behind Finecast. It's a material that as soon as its announced generates negative feedback even to the point where some swear of all resins (inc forgeworld) because of finecast. Furthermore its high fail rate means even more money for GW to spend mailing out replacements that are already faulty and will have to be replaced.
I'm honestly surprised they've taken as long as they have
Also GW has had issues meeting demand over the last few years, this might be them cutting some segments of their inventory that don't sell well just to get them out of the system.
They've also seen this approach sort of work for Middle Earth.
Also lets not forget they have actual sales metrics. They know exactly how much stuff actually sells at. Sometimes the whole "I'd have bought that before it went off sale" is more "I wanted to buy that one day but that day might never have actually come".
Terrain isn't going to be a big seller past a certain point and as much as I like my Aegis, I never bought more than one and didn't get any of the Wall of Martyrs or even a Bastion until a year or so ago when a friend sold me some during a clearout. Repainting the Lascannon battery has been a pain the behind and I only finished it a couple of weeks ago because the sculpts are somehow too detailed and horribly detailed at the same time. Not sad to see the Wall of Martyrs stuff go.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Haemotropes and plasma will be in imperium magazine, so for a little while will be quite common to pick up
Haemotropes yes, but I'm not seeing the thermic plasma regulators in there, just the conduits. Luckily they're in Nachmund so there's plenty of them on ebay - for now.
I liked the Wall of Martyrs sets a lot. Had a few and painted them, then sold online...although $45 for that bunker that was $30 just a few years ago is a little hard to swallow imo.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: And yeah, for a toy company to keep something from ~2008 in stock (14 years ago folks) is unheard of.
Tell that to the nearly 30 year old eldar models still being pawned off on consumers, for escalating prices during each price hike.
Or more bluntly, take away stuff that has at least marginal universal use (everyone can use terrain) for stuff that has even more marginal use since not many play eldar as nobody wants to pay to field ugly ancient models that cost as much as newer engineered sculpts.
Im an eldar fan, and ive written off the army since 4th ed. Which was essentially the last update other than fairly recent banshees and farseer.
Is it true that, when you die, if all of your unpainted models are buried with you, you paint them in the afterlife for all eternity? Asking for a friend.
I have some nostalgia for those old pieces, but in all honesty I just like the new stuff better. However I can understand the perspective of people who are unhappy with this development even though I do not share it personally.
GaroRobe wrote: Hm. I always wanted a Wall of Martyrs - Imperial Bunker, but do I get one...?
I heard its made in China, so the plastic is kind of clunky. Like the Garden of Morr...
Pretty sure the Wall of Martyrs kits are made in China, yes. For what it's worth, I've experienced a number of issues with GW's made in China terrain kits, but I don't remember having any trouble with the bunker I built and painted.
Could be that with shipping costs from the Far East still being astronomical and unreliable they’ve decided to move everything ‘in house’. Being it’s G Dubz I would imagine they’d still be turning a tidy profit, but if it’s taking an extra 6+ months for goods to be delivered, as it is in other industries, they may have decided it’s not worth the bother…
NinthMusketeer wrote: I have some nostalgia for those old pieces, but in all honesty I just like the new stuff better. However I can understand the perspective of people who are unhappy with this development even though I do not share it personally.
There is something to be said for the design and styling of newer kits. I wish GW was just willing to compromise a little and make some things modular instead of heavily investing in making unique pieces that can only be assembled one way. Like yeah, the recent dragon skeleton should be the latter. It makes sense. There's nothing wrong with having some unique pieces in your terrain range. But couldn't we have Sigmar buildings (preferably with both ruined and intact parts) as a core to the urban terrain range and create something like the floating fountain to come with its own stairs and both the fountain and the stairs being scaled so they can be fit neatly into the building range?
I think GW could get a lot more out of these kits if they were willing to commit to it. It even fits with the usual no model, no rules and monopose arguments. Make it build a single thing, and sell that thing only once. Make it modular or kitbashable with other kits, and you can sell multiples of the same thing.
GaroRobe wrote: Hm. I always wanted a Wall of Martyrs - Imperial Bunker, but do I get one...?
I heard its made in China, so the plastic is kind of clunky. Like the Garden of Morr...
Pretty sure the Wall of Martyrs kits are made in China, yes. For what it's worth, I've experienced a number of issues with GW's made in China terrain kits, but I don't remember having any trouble with the bunker I built and painted.
Wall of Martyrs kits suffer from the same main issue as Garden of Morr, Numinous Occulum, Chaos Dreadhold, Sector Imperialis bases and many other olders kits. The quality of detail is pretty low and parts require a lot of gap filling. It's not a China issue per se, just that the molds are made differently (ie. cheaper) and unable to catch all the detail from the hand-sculpted masters. Skyshield landing pad was one of the few exceptions which was obviously designed digitally and cast in high quality molds.
Pariah Press wrote: Is it true that, when you die, if all of your unpainted models are buried with you, you paint them in the afterlife for all eternity? Asking for a friend.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I have some nostalgia for those old pieces, but in all honesty I just like the new stuff better. However I can understand the perspective of people who are unhappy with this development even though I do not share it personally.
The Sector Mechanicus stuff that's going away are hardly an 'old pieces'.
A bit sad to see the terrain go, but the one I'll miss the most is the Bastion.
I do find it a bit weird that there is such major culling of the terrain offered. However, I wonder if it is GW realizing that their current rule system just doesn't play nice to a lot of their terrain.
Pariah Press wrote: Is it true that, when you die, if all of your unpainted models are buried with you, you paint them in the afterlife for all eternity? Asking for a friend.
Pariah Press wrote: Is it true that, when you die, if all of your unpainted models are buried with you, you paint them in the afterlife for all eternity? Asking for a friend.
Sounds nice, really.
Yes but only infantry and cavalry since they are indued with souls. You don't have to do terrain or vehicles to progress to the next stage of the afterlife.
Overread wrote: I know these are made overseas, perhaps GW has suddenly lost a contract with a factory in China?
I know that they can be hostile to work with, I seem to recall that Privateer Press wound up with a bunch of their moulds being held by a factory who wouldn't let them go - though I don't recall much of the ins and outs of that being explained beyond that.
Probably the factory was making money producing bootlegs from the actual molds and didn't want to give up a revenue stream. If you're making stuff in China, they WILL make extras and sell them for extra cash.
Oh snap, Conservators LCTB..
Now that one I just gotta get, and not only because it contains the missing antenna for the KT Nachmund box.
Gotta see if I can squeeze another landing pad in there as well. I only have one of them, and I always planned getting two and stacking one on top of the other for a 2-story "shopping mall vehicle garage" (never glued the side walls on).
The bunkers might be nice as well but "Skull Fatigue" is actually a thing..
Sector mechanicus, seriously? Its not that old and has to be one of the most unique terrain sets gw has produced. So many different build options. I have no idea why they can't just keep it as a main line alongside the ruins
lord_blackfang wrote: Dunno how you got Garden of Morr in there, it predates GW's cheapo AoS launch era chinese terrain, it has the normal detail sharpness.
Chapels and statue in Garden of Morr are fine but the walls, fences and gateway have softer detail.
Lower quality terrain didn't begin with AoS launch, most of the WHFB scenery kits from early 2000's had soft detail and poorly fitting parts. Only Tower, Chapel, Fortified Manor and certain parts of the Garden of Morr and Temple of Skulls have what I would consider normail detail sharpness.
There's always the chance that this stuff (especially the Sector Mechanicus kits) will be back in other kit combos, reboxed (and with a higher price tag). My feeling is that there will be a whole bunch of these "battlefield in a box" kits with different themes.
I hope so, mechanicus terrain is some of my favorite because it can be used for 40k or necromunda and looks good on my sector imperialis table. I would really like to pick up one of each kit that I don't have.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I have some nostalgia for those old pieces, but in all honesty I just like the new stuff better. However I can understand the perspective of people who are unhappy with this development even though I do not share it personally.
The Sector Mechanicus stuff that's going away are hardly an 'old pieces'.
Fair point, though at 5 years it isn't new either.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I have some nostalgia for those old pieces, but in all honesty I just like the new stuff better. However I can understand the perspective of people who are unhappy with this development even though I do not share it personally.
There is something to be said for the design and styling of newer kits. I wish GW was just willing to compromise a little and make some things modular instead of heavily investing in making unique pieces that can only be assembled one way. Like yeah, the recent dragon skeleton should be the latter. It makes sense. There's nothing wrong with having some unique pieces in your terrain range. But couldn't we have Sigmar buildings (preferably with both ruined and intact parts) as a core to the urban terrain range and create something like the floating fountain to come with its own stairs and both the fountain and the stairs being scaled so they can be fit neatly into the building range?
I think GW could get a lot more out of these kits if they were willing to commit to it. It even fits with the usual no model, no rules and monopose arguments. Make it build a single thing, and sell that thing only once. Make it modular or kitbashable with other kits, and you can sell multiples of the same thing.
Completely agree. I will say a lot of the 40k terrain is really good about this, and even the new stuff is much more modular than it initially appears. It is just strange how they haven't applied that to AoS beyond the Dreadhold terrain (which was phased out even faster than the sector mechanicus).
NinthMusketeer wrote: I will say a lot of the 40k terrain is really good about this, and even the new stuff is much more modular than it initially appears.
Take it from me, who spent a good chunk of Sunday building Nachmund terrain: No it's not.
Man this sucks, I had plans for the trenches and I just cannot buy them at the moment. So I guess I'll have to try and find a replacement when the time comes.
What's with them discontinuing terrain all the time? Some of those kits currently up on the chopping block are less than two years old!
NinthMusketeer wrote: I will say a lot of the 40k terrain is really good about this, and even the new stuff is much more modular than it initially appears.
Take it from me, who spent a good chunk of Sunday building Nachmund terrain: No it's not.
I suppose it is a rather subjective definition, so I can't really disagree.
Strange, as I follow the designer of many of those kits on twitter and he's always giving tips and tricks about cool modularity features he incorporated into it.
Rihgu wrote: Strange, as I follow the designer of many of those kits on twitter and he's always giving tips and tricks about cool modularity features he incorporated into it.
We're talking about the newest stuff. Not the Sector Mechanicus/Zone Mortalis stuff.
It would be nice if they expanded the fronteris range even further- a second floor option and a garage would be nice. Maybe a small watch tower that slots into the barricade wall.
I'd love for them to do that. Right now you can put the dish into the slot on the landing pad, or put a hab building onto the landing pad, and that's it.
Some of the Nachmund terrain pieces are reused Sector Mechanicus sprues that are designed to combine with other kits. ie: the vertical pieces are the same height as mechanicus walkways / sector Imperialis building floors / Zone Mortalis columns and can be used as supports, the pipes match up with the vents on ruined building walls, weird pipey bits can attach to ruins as chimneys, etc.
The Nachmund box really doesn't show this to it's full potential at all. The modularity isn't there in isolation, it's in how the different kits can be combined (and it's almost completely missing in the newer Battlezone Vertigus stuff!)
For a real world example look at the Sacristan Forgeshrine, which uses a couple of pieces from Nachmund combined with some walkways to make a larger structure.
GW has most of its terrain manufactured in China, do as single production run and then retire the mold. These production runs are large, but when they end they end.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: How good is Dungeons and Lasers as a substitute for the old Cities o Death terrain?
In short, very good, particularly the cathedral. Though you need to do your own platforms and roofing, the platform systems included do not work properly except as isolated elements, and some look sub par.
The factory has an arc deco rather than gothic look to it, and the windows and doorways are plain weird. Archon are now doing a concrete wall moderns ruin as a fourth set which looks very promising.
Dungeons and Lasers itself could be used, but is better used for its intended purpose: dungeons, whether industrial or medieval fantasy.
That explains it then. I never even considered that GW might have two boxes out with different contents but both called Nachmund. Those buildings don't look modular at all.
There's KillTeam: Nachmund, a box of assorted Sectore Mechanicus scenery, which will be getting a Killzone: Nachmund box in Q2. Not to be confused with Warzone Nachmund, the new GW terrain kit with the Fronteris hab and the fences etc.
One of them has modular terrain, the other has "some further assembly required" hackably modular terrain
Orlanth wrote: GW has most of its terrain manufactured in China, do as single production run and then retire the mold. These production runs are large, but when they end they end.
I don't know how accurate that is. Many of these kits have gone in and out of stock multiple times over the years, which suggests that they have had additional production runs to maintain availability.
The Bastion only went together one way as well.. Yet that didn't stop creative people from creating variations of things based on it. I'm quite confident a razor saw to the new hab bits and to the fences could yield interesting mashup potential, the vox tower base included.
tauist wrote: The Bastion only went together one way as well.. Yet that didn't stop creative people from creating variations of things based on it. I'm quite confident a razor saw to the new hab bits and to the fences could yield interesting mashup potential, the vox tower base included.
the Imperial Bastion was designed so that you could easily combine multiple kits together to make larger structures. They even come with the parts to connect floor panels of multiple kits together.
Designed modularity is different from kit convertability.
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Orlanth wrote: GW has most of its terrain manufactured in China, do as single production run and then retire the mold. These production runs are large, but when they end they end.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: How good is Dungeons and Lasers as a substitute for the old Cities o Death terrain?
In short, very good, particularly the cathedral. Though you need to do your own platforms and roofing, the platform systems included do not work properly except as isolated elements, and some look sub par.
The factory has an arc deco rather than gothic look to it, and the windows and doorways are plain weird. Archon are now doing a concrete wall moderns ruin as a fourth set which looks very promising.
Dungeons and Lasers itself could be used, but is better used for its intended purpose: dungeons, whether industrial or medieval fantasy.
To add to the above, the scale is thrown off because the doors are short. YMMV but it drove me up the wall ! I covered the smaller, molded closed ones with skulls to read as a relief panel and not a door.
Oh, and Archon never produced the actual door for the larger openings (as they showed in the Kickstarter).
What am I losing? What you're arguing literally makes no sense. You're saying the sky is green.
You said the newer kits are "much more modular than it initially appears", but they aren't. They're not modular at all. The two newest kits that GW has released - one for AoS and one for 40k - are some of the least modular terrain kits GW has ever produced. They literally go together one way. And this is a common theme among most recent GW terrain releases as well. They're just not doing what they did when Sector Mechanicus/Imperialis/Mortalis anymore.
So really, what are you trying to say?
tauist wrote: The Bastion only went together one way as well.. Yet that didn't stop creative people from creating variations of things based on it. I'm quite confident a razor saw to the new hab bits and to the fences could yield interesting mashup potential, the vox tower base included.
Firstly, as mentioned above, that's not even slightly true. The Bastion kit contained additional pieces allowing you to combine multiple kits together to create larger pieces. Moreover, it was designed with the same dimensions as the Cities of Death terrain, for further compatibility.
Secondly, cutting up and converting something isn't the same as "being modular". How do you not get that?
I'm done with GW pricing, but I could see this piece
This goes together only one way. used as a mobile terrain piece in ash wastes as a hunt for Red October style Scenario. It looks like the command tower off the top of a submarine to me and it could move around the board randomly (cause GW) with gangs trying to board it and take over.
Depends on the level of modularity you want to see. The tower and dish fitting into the building is a form of modular build, as is the hab block fitting onto the building. But modularity in the way you can build them would have been nice.
The hab block I do find more modular, as it also builds well together with the Kill zone: Sector Fronteris for some awesome ruined building possibilities. It's even compatible with the Ryza-Pattern ruins terrain, so way more options than you might think.
Missed chance is making several floors possible, in that way it is not modular, but with some cutting I do see ways to make that possible.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The tower doesn't fit. And that's not modularity. Putting a tree on a hill doesn't make the hill modular. Or the tree.
If we agree that modularity is various components that can fit together to build a new working system, then slotting the dish into the building is modular building.
I totally agree if someone doesn't find it very modular, but stating that's it's not modular at all is false. Like I stated, the kits are even compatible with earlier released kits, even with the Ryza ruins.
The parts are made to work together with at least three different kits, you can't call that not modular.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The tower doesn't fit. And that's not modularity. Putting a tree on a hill doesn't make the hill modular. Or the tree.
If we agree that modularity is various components that can fit together to build a new working system, then slotting the dish into the building is modular building.
I totally agree if someone doesn't find it very modular, but stating that's it's not modular at all is false. Like I stated, the kits are even compatible with earlier released kits, even with the Ryza ruins.
The parts are made to work together with at least three different kits, you can't call that not modular.
But we don't? Also, that's not various components that can fit together. That's various completed buildings that can be stacked.
Myrthe wrote: Designed modularity is different from kit convertability.
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Orlanth wrote: GW has most of its terrain manufactured in China, do as single production run and then retire the mold. These production runs are large, but when they end they end.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: How good is Dungeons and Lasers as a substitute for the old Cities o Death terrain?
In short, very good, particularly the cathedral. Though you need to do your own platforms and roofing, the platform systems included do not work properly except as isolated elements, and some look sub par.
The factory has an arc deco rather than gothic look to it, and the windows and doorways are plain weird. Archon are now doing a concrete wall moderns ruin as a fourth set which looks very promising.
Dungeons and Lasers itself could be used, but is better used for its intended purpose: dungeons, whether industrial or medieval fantasy.
To add to the above, the scale is thrown off because the doors are short. YMMV but it drove me up the wall ! I covered the smaller, molded closed ones with skulls to read as a relief panel and not a door.
Oh, and Archon never produced the actual door for the larger openings (as they showed in the Kickstarter).
Archon has had numerous and varied problems with doors, I do not consider this a deal breaker, especially with the Rampart kits. You shouldn't be messing with doors in a 40K game. Glue them open or shut and carry on.
Off topic a bit: Dungeons and Lasers extra doors do work very nicely though for RPG, and fit generic 28mm miniatures including most heroics, though you should limit scale creep minis 30mm heroic such as GW and Reaper.
I do recommend D&L but you have to be patient with it and look at what you are buying carefully, many kits and add ons are interrelated and less valuable if you do not purchase the correct number of add ons for the correct set you want to improve.. You can easily paint yourself into a corner if you get the wrong match of items
That is GW's problem, and GW's loss, all three of the above pieces are nice, but I am only tempted to buy one each. Mechanicus terrain and IG Bastions are expandable and thus it makes sense to buy more.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The tower doesn't fit. And that's not modularity. Putting a tree on a hill doesn't make the hill modular. Or the tree.
If we agree that modularity is various components that can fit together to build a new working system, then slotting the dish into the building is modular building.
I totally agree if someone doesn't find it very modular, but stating that's it's not modular at all is false. Like I stated, the kits are even compatible with earlier released kits, even with the Ryza ruins.
The parts are made to work together with at least three different kits, you can't call that not modular.
This is not modularity of terrain kits, this is being ability to combine terrain kits
saying you can put 1 single piece of plastic next to another single piece without needing to cut something does not make those pieces modular, it just means you can combine different pieces
and in the case of the later GW kits, you get single pieces out of the parts in the box that is always the same single piece which can be combined with other pieces, with the bad thing that they don't sell the tubes any more that you would need to combine those to larger terrain pieces
that we should be glad that we are able to combine pieces of GW terrain without needing a knife and green stuff says a lot already, and the price is the final nail
H.B.M.C. wrote: The tower doesn't fit. And that's not modularity. Putting a tree on a hill doesn't make the hill modular. Or the tree.
If we agree that modularity is various components that can fit together to build a new working system, then slotting the dish into the building is modular building.
I totally agree if someone doesn't find it very modular, but stating that's it's not modular at all is false. Like I stated, the kits are even compatible with earlier released kits, even with the Ryza ruins.
The parts are made to work together with at least three different kits, you can't call that not modular.
But we don't? Also, that's not various components that can fit together. That's various completed buildings that can be stacked.
Hey, if that's not what you think modularity means, then you're free to your own opinion, strange as I may find it.
If you also think that three different kits with pieces of wall (intact walls, ruined walls, loose sections, different lengths etc.) with several slotting together is not modular, then I don't think I can convice you that these sets are modular, so not gonna try
I'm gonna enjoy combining my sets, many options.
Added later: I opened up my box and I agree with your stacking, not modular remark. I was wrong thinking either or both (vox/shrine) fitted into the landing pad. It clearly does not, it's simply stacking like you said. You made me less happy with my kit .
H.B.M.C. wrote: The tower doesn't fit. And that's not modularity. Putting a tree on a hill doesn't make the hill modular. Or the tree.
If we agree that modularity is various components that can fit together to build a new working system, then slotting the dish into the building is modular building.
I totally agree if someone doesn't find it very modular, but stating that's it's not modular at all is false. Like I stated, the kits are even compatible with earlier released kits, even with the Ryza ruins.
The parts are made to work together with at least three different kits, you can't call that not modular.
They have links for the pipe terrain too, and the barricades are obviously modular straight out of the box. It is like I was saying before; looking at a single lego brick it is not modulat. Zoom out and view the whole picture and it very much is.
These kits do not make a whole battlefield on their own; it takes multiple kits. They are very specifically pieces a whole. I'm with you in not really understanding the artificially cropped viewpoint some are expressing.
I don't know if you just try to troll here don't understand the difference between pieces of a model kit and the actual build model
yes a brick is a single non modular piece, as is the single plastic piece in a sprue
with the difference that I can stick 100 bricks together the way I want, while the single pieces from the sprue can be build on 1 way and 1 way only
but it is fine, if GW marketing told you that those are modular terrain kits and you have that they must be right and everyone else does not know what "modular" mean
no problem, every company needs their white knights
kodos wrote: I don't know if you just try to troll here don't understand the difference between pieces of a model kit and the actual build model
yes a brick is a single non modular piece, as is the single plastic piece in a sprue
with the difference that I can stick 100 bricks together the way I want, while the single pieces from the sprue can be build on 1 way and 1 way only
but it is fine, if GW marketing told you that those are modular terrain kits and you have that they must be right and everyone else does not know what "modular" mean
no problem, every company needs their white knights
Nothing to do with defending or opposing GW, simply that one terrain box is only a piece of a table's worth of terrain needed to play. You can stick them together anyway you want and they are specifically designed to link up that way, or have interchangeability between kits.
Are YOU arguing that means nothing? Because suggesting that a lack of compatibility between kits as no downside is a more significant defense of GW than anything I said.
ok, so you suggest that the lowest possible standard of any terrain kit that is part of a series, should now be praised as a big advantage we happily be the higher price for
that is the most bs argument I read in a long while, defending on overpriced piece of plastic
Yep. Setting things up next to each other means nothing.
If the kits made super bunkers, outhouses, landing control stations, etc, etc rather than just bunkerx2, antenna and landing pad, that would be modular. Putting walls in a line is... not.
kodos wrote: ok, so you suggest that the lowest possible standard of any terrain kit that is part of a series, should now be praised as a big advantage we happily be the higher price for
that is the most bs argument I read in a long while, defending on overpriced piece of plastic
Continuation of crafting falsehoods in lieu of addressing the point does you little credit.
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Toofast wrote: That was a thrilling 3-page debate about the nuances of the word modular. Can we go back to talking about the actual topic now?
Y'know I tried but they were reeeeeeallly insistent on not dropping it.
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Voss wrote: Yep. Setting things up next to each other means nothing.
If the kits made super bunkers, outhouses, landing control stations, etc, etc rather than just bunkerx2, antenna and landing pad, that would be modular. Putting walls in a line is... not.
I like the kit, but it isn't modular at all.
You realize you can combine multiple bunkers...? EDIT: My mistake, I was thinking of the landing pad as a type of bunker when it is not labelled as such. At any rate it can combine with the hab-bunker, which itself can mix&match with the ruined version.
I find the price/height&area a big issue. Kits are lovely but a marine being able to peek over is a bit of a difficulty. Tactical rocks (i.e. rocks on bases to raise minis) actually pay off here (or a hindrance depending on point of view). Less keen on something that looks precisely marine height.
One block of Lego is akin to one piece of a plastic kit. The difference is that the Lego has a universal connector points (top and bottom) that allow them to join with a variety of other pieces that all have the same two types of connection points.
The pieces on the landing pad or antenna sprues do not have universal connectors, and do not go together in any different ways other than the specific places they are designed to go in. They are not modular in the slightest.
Putting something next to something else doesn't make those two things "modular". Putting something on top of something else does not make those two things modular.
I've arrived back where I was two pages ago; your loss. People often create entirely artificial restraints that serve no meaninful purpose other than to reduce their own enjoyment even outside the confines of Warhammer, let alone within. At some point one can only shrug and move on, it is not my fun that's being sabotaged.
Loss of what? But there's nothing artificial about what we're saying.
They are not modular any more than the sky is not green. It's not a matter of interpretation or even use. The kits go together one way and one way only. They cannot be combined, mixed, matched, or reconfigured. They are not like the Sector Imperialis/Mechanicus/Mortalis stuff.
They are set models that build one and one thing only. Unlike Lego bricks, which are specifically designed to be used in virtually unlimited ways
Yes, I could cut them apart and convert them into something else, but that's not modularity.
I'm looking at the Imperial Bunker, and think it looks pretty cool (I very rarely look at GW terrains and don't really keep up with what they produce).
It's also relatively cheap at 55$ CAD (even if it was cheaper before, as anything else). I don't have much Imperial forces myself (only Custodes, and they don't need no bunker ), but I think it could be cool to have to just plonk down on the table for some flavor. I could be tempted.
I figured it was small, which would be perfect actually! If it can hold a squad of 10 guardsmen on top, and potentially another one inside (even if "pretending" they are in as I doubt it open up for real), that would be the best!
Ultimately the Wall of Martyrs stuff was really good when it was sold in a big bundle:
I always see it as a missed opportunity, because I feel like a lot of people were put off by the mounds of dead Cadians which both added many more details to paint and locked in a certain aspect of the theme.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I always see it as a missed opportunity, because I feel like a lot of people were put off by the mounds of dead Cadians which both added many more details to paint and locked in a certain aspect of the theme.
Plus, well, as an IG player painting up 100s of dead guard was not a selling point for me.
I get the idea, but it just looked like a pain in the ass where the ultimate return is to celebrate how much my army sucks.
I thought about getting it and covering them with clay or putty, but then I realized it would be easier to kit bash something then.
The best GW scenery is now for LoTR. I miss little things like the 'Arcane ruins' that were simple ruined temples that could be made into lots of different things, you could turn them into temples for anything and serve as just decoration or objectives. Something of a successor, the Sigmarite temple is now also gone OOP but maybe is just awaiting a price increase) And the amazing Dominion of Sigmar: The Enduring Stormvault is now also OOP.
Fantasy is being really hit hard scenery-wise lots of good terrain no longer for sale and for far longer. The latest announced terrain isn't really that great so it looks like it'll be a long wait before anything substantial.
This seems to be a general disposition that modularity with kits is wrong or somehow a give-away to the customer rather than a force that drove more sales. GW was once very proud of it's new 98' marine kits being modular and understood being able to mix and match different marks of armour was key to it. The last tac box made before the Primaris (Who are also bad for the hobby through all having the same mark of armour and even their chapter upgrade kits are low energy) took this almost to an extreme. And now both the torso and legs of Primaris and new CSM only go together one way because somebody thought that players didn't use the waist articulation very much without thinking that taking those options away damaged the hobby. Other companies even make their miniatures with full ball joints between legs and torso. And now we can't swap legs or torsos either. Other lines are now suffering this too but it's not as noticed since torso and leg modularity wasn't as big in conversions.
Sureshot05 wrote: I find the price/height&area a big issue. Kits are lovely but a marine being able to peek over is a bit of a difficulty. Tactical rocks (i.e. rocks on bases to raise minis) actually pay off here (or a hindrance depending on point of view). Less keen on something that looks precisely marine height.
I
I thought there was something odd about the way Warhammer Community proudly declared the landing pad was just tall enough to hide standard infantry. I'd be concerned that with modern GW you are only going to get more models prancing on tactical rocks that won't be able to benefit from the terrain piece, and for no good reason whatsoever.
Skywave wrote: I figured it was small, which would be perfect actually! If it can hold a squad of 10 guardsmen on top, and potentially another one inside (even if "pretending" they are in as I doubt it open up for real), that would be the best!
Yeah, it's a fun little bunker. You can fit ten Guardsmen on the roof. It probably gets crowded fast if the squad has a heavy weapon team, though. Or if you put a quad gun in the weapon mount.
The bunkers have no bottom, so you could put models on the board and place the bunker over them. It would be fiddly and pretty impractical to get them out again during the game if you have a squad on the roof, though.
Generally you can tell the Wall of Martyrs is from a time when the standard base size was 25mm. You can get good model density on the terrain pieces. There's enough room for individual 32mm based models, but good luck fitting a ten man squad of those on the bunker.
GaroRobe wrote: Hm. I always wanted a Wall of Martyrs - Imperial Bunker, but do I get one...?
I heard its made in China, so the plastic is kind of clunky. Like the Garden of Morr...
I can confirm that the edge rims of the WoM models is horribly made. The injection process used appears to not like the edges much:
This is the front of the Wall of Martyrs bunker. Note the stretched skull next to the skeleton niche. The canteen and helmets near the bend in the window are similar, painted to lessen the effect.
Yeah, that's something to be aware of. All that surface detail only looks proper from one angle because the terrain is cast in few parts. So you get the familiar issue of simple steel molds not producing undercuts.
It's not something I'd want to carve away and clean up on a table's worth of terrain, but it wasn't so bad on a single bunker I'd bring in the fortification slot back in the day.
I imagine you could also hide the undesirable bits under a coat of sand, though I haven't tried that myself.
GaroRobe wrote: Hm. I always wanted a Wall of Martyrs - Imperial Bunker, but do I get one...?
I heard its made in China, so the plastic is kind of clunky. Like the Garden of Morr...
I can confirm that the edge rims of the WoM models is horridly made. The injection process used appears to not like the edges much:
This is the front of the Wall of Martyrs bunker. Note the stretched skull next to the skeleton niche. The canteen and helmets near the bend in the window are similar, painted to lessen the effect.
More than just the edges.
Things like the Firestorm Redoubt were just...ugh. I still haven't finished building mine as there was something on the plastic rejecting the plastic glue. Even clamped, it just wasn't sticking together.
I think it eventually makes a comeback whenever they get around to doing a Kill Team set with Wall of Martyrs terrain - just because they are discontinuing the current products doesn't automatically mean its gone for good, a few of the items on that list are still available as part of other terrain bundles.
Kanluwen wrote: Things like the Firestorm Redoubt were just...ugh. I still haven't finished building mine as there was something on the plastic rejecting the plastic glue. Even clamped, it just wasn't sticking together.
That's cause that generation of terrain is... basically a bad formulation of restic (PVC and ABS mix) and not polystyrene. Especially bad because it warps on casting but is resistant to heat bending so you can't even fix it.
Kanluwen wrote: Things like the Firestorm Redoubt were just...ugh. I still haven't finished building mine as there was something on the plastic rejecting the plastic glue. Even clamped, it just wasn't sticking together.
That's cause that generation of terrain is... basically a bad formulation of restic (PVC and ABS mix) and not polystyrene. Especially bad because it warps on casting but is resistant to heat bending so you can't even fix it.
Oh yeah, I'm aware of polystyrene cement not working. I was not at the time of attempting it, mind you!
It's basically a write-off at this point, even with an attempt at cyanoacrylate. I have it stuck in a box somewhere waiting for me to be bothered to figure out something to do with it. Maybe if I ever get motivated to build a trenchworks board or something, where I can caulk it into the side of a mountain or hill?
PVC weld (for plumbing pipes) might work. Maybe. Really that gak is the worst of all worlds. Luckily I only have a Deathworld Forest and being organic it's a lot easier to gap fill with putty and such.
lord_blackfang wrote: PVC weld (for plumbing pipes) might work. Maybe. Really that gak is the worst of all worlds. Luckily I only have a Deathworld Forest and being organic it's a lot easier to gap fill with putty and such.
That stuff took polystyrene cement just fine as far as I know?
I used the shardwrack spines for basing my Idoneth Eels. It looked really cool!
Kanluwen wrote: Things like the Firestorm Redoubt were just...ugh. I still haven't finished building mine as there was something on the plastic rejecting the plastic glue. Even clamped, it just wasn't sticking together.
That's cause that generation of terrain is... basically a bad formulation of restic (PVC and ABS mix) and not polystyrene. Especially bad because it warps on casting but is resistant to heat bending so you can't even fix it.
Except that its 100% HIPS and therefore not restic at all and 100% polystyrene.
Not sure what you guys are talking about plastic glue not working on it, I just (as in literally within the past month) built out 2 bunkers and ~2 dozen trench sections using tamiya, testors, and citadel plastic cement and all three worked perfectly (I usually just use citadel plastic glue for the needle applicator, but because of the glue points on the trenches being big and flat I opted to switch to the brush-on stuff from tamiya and testors as its cheaper and quicker to apply than the needle applicator is, but I ran out of the last of my testors stuff and the local store only had tamiya, so ended up using that to finish the job, ended up going back to citadels needle applciator for the bunkers though as a few of those joints were much finer and better suited to needle precision).
I was clearing out the Cupboard of Crap last night, so I can take more rubbish to the tip in preparation for my house move at the end of the month. Only found all my thought lost/donated Sector Mechanicus terrain! Now to decide whether to keep it, or sell it.
I think GW is doing a big strip out of Finecast and as they can't push it out by replacing it en-mass with new plastics they are instead going to do it by putting it all in this new wave of "limited production run" models. They started with the Imperium and now its moving onto other forces.
Also interesting to note that the recent Eldar models were all metal. So perhaps GW has decided to get rid of finecast entirely so they will do not only limited print runs in the future, but also all metal. Letting them control the metal production demands and spread them out and also get rid of a material that has never really worked well for them. All whilst they can buy more time to steadily replace the finecast with plastics or retire them
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Tamereth wrote: Forge world have also put more stuff on last chance to buy today. Ork stompa upgrades and a random weapon for their giant neocon Walker thing.
FW's last chance is broken on the website. It's basically impossible to tell if its actually last chance or the glitch.
I want this to lead to a pack of 5 plastic Mandrakes, and 3-pack of plastic Grotesques, but I know it's just as likely to result in them being removed from the Codex altogether...
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I think the list function on dakka is broken, you have to use html if you can be arsed.
Well, the Grotesques should really get a plastic kit of their own, I've never seen anyone field the finecast versions, and it looks like the other two remaining FC units in the army list, Mandrakes and the Court, are on their way out as well.
Well, that's not ideal. For as big as the Necron update at the start of the edition was, Destroyers were perhaps the most glaring omission. Got to echo your thoughts on Dark Eldar here, I should hope that means a plastic kit, but we're taking about GW here.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Well, the Grotesques should really get a plastic kit of their own, I've never seen anyone field the finecast versions, and it looks like the other two remaining FC units in the army list, Mandrakes and the Court, are on their way out as well.
I've never seen the actual Grotesque model in person either, and frankly I'm not surprised. Even with all the problems that came with it being released in Finecast, the worst thing about it is that it came out as a single model when the standard for monstrous infantry both before and after has been three different poses, regardless of material. But in this case GW couldn't be bothered and instead gave us the dance revue Grotesque. You have to wonder if that thing even sold.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Well, the Grotesques should really get a plastic kit of their own, I've never seen anyone field the finecast versions, and it looks like the other two remaining FC units in the army list, Mandrakes and the Court, are on their way out as well.
I guess the 10th edition Dark Eldar Codex will be a few pages thinner then.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Well, the Grotesques should really get a plastic kit of their own, I've never seen anyone field the finecast versions, and it looks like the other two remaining FC units in the army list, Mandrakes and the Court, are on their way out as well.
We’re also now in an era where releases aren’t necessarily tied to a new Codex.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I was clearing out the Cupboard of Crap last night, so I can take more rubbish to the tip in preparation for my house move at the end of the month. Only found all my thought lost/donated Sector Mechanicus terrain! Now to decide whether to keep it, or sell it.
If you happen to have a Tectonic Fragdrill, I’d be interested!
Agamemnon2 wrote: Well, the Grotesques should really get a plastic kit of their own, I've never seen anyone field the finecast versions, and it looks like the other two remaining FC units in the army list, Mandrakes and the Court, are on their way out as well.
The Lhamaean, for some reason, is not Last Chance To Buy. An omission?
3rd ed Grotesques are more like Wracks. Monstrous infantry sized Grotesques only exist since the 5th ed codex and their situation has not made whole lot of sense for the entirety of their existence. You could even say it's grotesque.
And the 3rd edition "Grotesque" models are among the least successfully executed concepts of that old range, which is saying a lot. I don't think many people used them even back in 1998.
Agamemnon2 wrote: And the 3rd edition "Grotesque" models are among the least successfully executed concepts of that old range, which is saying a lot. I don't think many people used them even back in 1998.
Agamemnon2 wrote: And the 3rd edition "Grotesque" models are among the least successfully executed concepts of that old range, which is saying a lot. I don't think many people used them even back in 1998.
Them and the OG Oblits.
Not a great time for 'big' infantry.
To be fair, for much of early 3rd edition, 40k didn't even have much "big infantry". Bipedal models mostly came on 25mm round bases, or 40mm squares, and the latter were fairly uncommon. Even Wraithguard were on 25s. IIRC, the Ork Warboss and Nobz were the first ever kit to use the 40mm round base.
Also really odd that the singularity guns are vanishing for the Necron Titan - a single part for a huge kit and they are rotating out one weapon option. Seems like a strange choice all told, esp as its a kit that seems to sell better than expected (its constantly falling in and out of stock).
Nice to get confirmation
And yes a good chunk of Dark Eldar and, unlike the recent marine chunk, this isn't just heroic leaders but some core units - eg that's their entire beast-master line of models gone for an unknown length of time.
Overread wrote: Also really odd that the singularity guns are vanishing for the Necron Titan - a single part for a huge kit and they are rotating out one weapon option. Seems like a strange choice all told, esp as its a kit that seems to sell better than expected (its constantly falling in and out of stock).
Nice to get confirmation
And yes a good chunk of Dark Eldar and, unlike the recent marine chunk, this isn't just heroic leaders but some core units - eg that's their entire beast-master line of models gone for an unknown length of time.
Last I checked, though, the Seraptek was still being sold in a bundle with the guns that are going away. Perhaps these guns just won't be available on their own for the time being?
And, really... is anyone fielding Dark Eldar Beastmasters or Courts of the Archon?
dan2026 wrote: Kind of alarming just howe much of the Dark Eldar range is disappearing.
Sort of? I mean it's all Finecast models and in many cases stuff that gets bought once. All of this stuff has rules in the current Codex and it would be nice to see plastic versions of all of it. That being said, with the Beast packs, Archons Court, and Grotesques, there are a lot of other models that can very easily be used instead (and should be used instead in the case of the Grotesque).
Hell, the Beastmaster is £17 and for £1 more you can buy a box of Helions. Chuck on an Agoniser from the Wyches or Kabalites and you have a Beast Master plus a bunch of parts and gubbins.
All the "hound" alternate options are better for money as well. The only real problem could be for the Razorwings.
Kind of alarming just howe much of the Dark Eldar range is disappearing.
Its only a third of the DE kits. No big deal, right?
[They have 34 listings on the store page, including codex, cards, combat patrol and webway portal. They're losing 11 of 30 kits). That is indeed alarming.
And I've noticed we've already gone from the range rotation is 'Fine because its just marine characters' to 'Ah, you didn't buy those anyway, and its nothing you want multiple of'
% of the range doesn't matter nearly as much as what the kits are. For example, losing the grotesque is barely a loss at all, while beastmasters and court are two rarely used units that make up half of these cuts.
Not saying none of these sting, but just looking at raw % is misleading.
If these Ork characters returned in metal I might even consider buying them (only half joking since some Failcast models for Lotr have been retransfered to metal recently).
Voss wrote: Its only a third of the DE kits. No big deal, right?
[They have 34 listings on the store page, including codex, cards, combat patrol and webway portal. They're losing 11 of 30 kits). That is indeed alarming.
And all of them are Finecast and are very easy to replicate with other GW models. Turns out the sky isn't falling after all, who'd have thought.
And I've noticed we've already gone from the range rotation is 'Fine because its just marine characters' to 'Ah, you didn't buy those anyway, and its nothing you want multiple of'
Actually, that's not true at all. It was very specifically noted in the Marine batch that most of the models being rotated were single purchase cases, older kits, or Finecast.
Regardless the point is accurate. How many people are buying multiple Au'Va's or Zagstruks? I've seen more converted versions of Ork characters than the actual models because everyone I've met hates Finecast.
All the "hound" alternate options are better for money as well. The only real problem could be for the Razorwings.
I almost never used them, but I made my Khymerae out of the old plastic Chaos Warhounds kit. Still available for £18 for 10 doggoes. For mine, I omitted the weird horns and some of the more organic detail like pustules and stuff, and then greenstuffed over all of it with more fur, and finished things off with an otherworldly pale white paintjob with black teeth, for a pack of eyeless hounds straight from a pedigree breeder somewhere in Comorragh.
NinthMusketeer wrote: % of the range doesn't matter nearly as much as what the kits are. For example, losing the grotesque is barely a loss at all, while beastmasters and court are two rarely used units that make up half of these cuts.
Not saying none of these sting, but just looking at raw % is misleading.
Not if you want to know if the range is supported or not. Turns out... not.
'Someone on the internet doesn't like them' is not a useful value for DE player who wants to expand their army or collection.
And I've noticed we've already gone from the range rotation is 'Fine because its just marine characters' to 'Ah, you didn't buy those anyway, and its nothing you want multiple of'
Actually, that's not true at all. It was very specifically noted in the Marine batch that most of the models being rotated were single purchase cases, older kits, or Finecast.
Regardless the point is accurate. How many people are buying multiple Au'Va's or Zagstruks? I've seen more converted versions of Ork characters than the actual models because everyone I've met hates Finecast.
'We're not doing the thing you say we're doing, let me explain more why we're doing it.'
Yeah, right.
The accurate point is that range rotation spread and is proceeding to gut armies, exactly as I expected and feared. And the response is <excuse as to why they're bad> so it doesn't matter to <person posting> if large chunks of someone else's army goes away or not.
You don't have to care. But don't try to justify why it won't matter to other people, because it will.
'We're not doing the thing you say we're doing, let me explain more why we're doing it.'
Yeah, right.
You said people changed their argument on the latest batch compared to the first. You are wrong. Not difficult to understand mate.
The accurate point is that range rotation spread and is proceeding to gut armies, exactly as I expected and feared. And the response is <excuse as to why they're bad> so it doesn't matter to <person posting> if large chunks of someone else's army goes away or not.
Hey there, I play Drukhari and I couldn't care less that most of these are going away because I never wanted those models. I said this was generally not a big deal because there are a hell of a lot of alternative models for most of what is being rotated. In fact, I think the one exception is the Mandrakes. But hey if you want to pay £18 for two Finecast dog things be my guest, I'll drop £32.50 on some Direwolves and get five times as many for less than double the price of your two and they'll be plastic.
Agamemnon2 wrote: I almost never used them, but I made my Khymerae out of the old plastic Chaos Warhounds kit. Still available for £18 for 10 doggoes. For mine, I omitted the weird horns and some of the more organic detail like pustules and stuff, and then greenstuffed over all of it with more fur, and finished things off with an otherworldly pale white paintjob with black teeth, for a pack of eyeless hounds straight from a pedigree breeder somewhere in Comorragh.
I was tempted to use the AoSDoK Underworlds warband as my Archons Court, Archon, and Succubus. I might still do upon my next army expansion because £21 for 5 plastic models, even if I don't use them all, is better than £13 each (£52 total) for Finecast ones.
And, really... is anyone fielding Dark Eldar Beastmasters or Courts of the Archon?
I can only speak for myself, but I love the idea of the Court of the Archon, and the models are great.
The rules might be poor, but I don't think that the answer is to get rid of the models. Hopefully plastic kits are on the way, but I fear that the options may just be removed from the future codex.
I love that people just flat-out ignore the concept of range rotation in favour of being negative and fear-mongering. Not to mention, once again, the numerous alternatives to the current models. It's like none of you have ever heard of converting or kitbashing or custom models.
Making a bunch of Dark Eldar models unavailable is kind of crappy move and pretty alarming. Seems pretty different than removing some ancient marine character models.
Well when some of us on the original range rotation thread flagged that this could potentially happen to other armies to any random extent as a problem we got some dismissive feedback.
Now we are were we are and sorry to say that this will be something that we have to live with.
Gert wrote: I love that people just flat-out ignore the concept of range rotation in favour of being negative and fear-mongering. Not to mention, once again, the numerous alternatives to the current models. It's like none of you have ever heard of converting or kitbashing or custom models.
I love this 'how dare you not like it, you must not be a real hobbyist' gatekeeping. And the wild assumption that anyone who doesn't like it never converts or kitbashes. [For clarity: this assumption is unsurprisingly baseless and wrong]
So, on 'negative and fear-mongering,' what, exactly, are the positives? What benefits is GW providing by disappearing parts of an army range? You've provided none, simply said it doesn't matter (to you, and therefor to everyone) because you've got yours and you'd rather convert anyway.
What is not negative about parts of the army range going away, regardless of the maybe-temporary nature of that unavailability? It doesn't let them make new kits, because they've been ramping up on that over the years despite not doing range rotation.
There are zero positives from the consumer's point of view. It's just another way to try to eke another % of profit out of their already legendary margins.
It's also a really weird decision given how wedded GW has been in the recent past to "no rules without a model." Now it is going to be a regular part of 40k that there are datasheets you cannot buy a model for except from ebay scalpers. And not just obscure characters, but whole units. It is hard for me to believe that the warehouse savings are really worth the costs of sending people to 3D printing or 3rd party minis by telling them they literally cannot buy the GW model even if they want to.
yukishiro1 wrote: There are zero positives from the consumer's point of view. It's just another way to try to eke another % of profit out of their already legendary margins.
The way I see it is, if they dont keep their range in stock and I need them for my projects, I just save the money and actually put the project on hold... and we all know what happens to those projects.
No sale on 1 item of a future project can actually make me rethink the investment on the full project.
Voss wrote: I love this 'how dare you not like it, you must not be a real hobbyist' gatekeeping. And the wild assumption that anyone who doesn't like it never converts or kitbashes. [For clarity: this assumption is unsurprisingly baseless and wrong]
Never said you had to like it chief, just think people declaring this yet another end-of-the-world event is a joke. But sure, when you have ignored my point about there being loads of alternative options for those being removed (and at a better price bracket) how could I not be an elitist gatekeeper. Makes perfect sense.
Maybe instead of endlessly complaining, you could come up with solutions to the "problem". But complaining is easier isn't it?
So, on 'negative and fear-mongering' what, exactly, are the positives? What benefits is GW providing by disappearing parts of an army range? You've provided none, simply said it doesn't matter (to you, and therefor to everyone) because you've got yours and you'd rather convert anyway.
Less Finecast. Also, don't have any of the things going away and still don't understand why people seem so opposed to the concept of alternate models when usually the anti-GW crowd are all about alternate models.
What is not negative about parts of the army range going away, regardless of the maybe-temporary nature of that unavailability? It doesn't let them make new kits, because they've been ramping up on that over the years despite not doing range rotation.
See, that's your problem. You're so obsessed with seeing everything GW does as some slight that you'll just ignore that range rotation has been done with LotR and works fine. I never claimed it would allow new kits, I said it would be nice to see some. Everything has to be part of a big conspiracy for you otherwise you can't justify complaining all the time.
Go outside and touch some grass before you hurt yourself.
i'd disagree with that, range rotation is better than 'oops we don't sell enough of this one, off to legends with it and stop selling the mini forever'
it would be great if stuff stuck around until it was replaced by a new model, but we've clearly seen that isn't going to be the case and with finite warehouse space (even if it's recently increased) and ever more kits being released something has to give
at least with range rotation most of the stuff will be back at least once
(and hopefully a model being in range rotation will also mean that the loadout/character sticks around in the upcoming rules releases too as its clear that they're doubling down on the no model no rules such that there has to be a current model or away goes that weapon loadout even if it used to be traditional
Perhaps this shows that GW was going to retire a LOT of resin kits with new plastic ones and the Corona messed up that process of release. So now a bunch of stuff is pushed further off than they like; but they still perhaps scaled back their plans and orders for Finecast/material for finecast.
So suddenly production has a shortfall and GW doesn't want to change that plan for a material, which is honestly, disliked in general.
Heck I know I've held off buying any finecast models so it might be GW sees this pattern too and that finecast stuff just is not selling, esp for 40K. So push it into range rotation and use that to reduce the abundance of finecast whilst also pushing for more plastic replacements
As with last month I find it hard to be upset or puzzled when a toy company discontinues low-selling 10 year+ old toys.
The only puzzling thing I find is this whole 'rotation' idea since I can't really see any of these coming back.
I will miss the Space Pope though, he was right on the line of stupid/awesome. His two well oiled muscular body guards tipped the balance for me into awesome land.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: As with last month I find it hard to be upset or puzzled when a toy company discontinues low-selling 10 year+ old toys.
That's not puzzling, but when they do that to the only models for several codex entries in one army it is a tad alarming. And considering how hard they have been pushing for 'no model, no rules' it is bizarre. What the new Drukhari players are supposed to do? They will see several units in their codex the GW sells no models for.
Voss wrote: I love this 'how dare you not like it, you must not be a real hobbyist' gatekeeping. And the wild assumption that anyone who doesn't like it never converts or kitbashes. [For clarity: this assumption is unsurprisingly baseless and wrong]
Never said you had to like it chief, just think people declaring this yet another end-of-the-world event is a joke. But sure, when you have ignored my point about there being loads of alternative options for those being removed (and at a better price bracket) how could I not be an elitist gatekeeper. Makes perfect sense.
Maybe instead of endlessly complaining, you could come up with solutions to the "problem". But complaining is easier isn't it?
So, on 'negative and fear-mongering' what, exactly, are the positives? What benefits is GW providing by disappearing parts of an army range? You've provided none, simply said it doesn't matter (to you, and therefor to everyone) because you've got yours and you'd rather convert anyway.
Less Finecast. Also, don't have any of the things going away and still don't understand why people seem so opposed to the concept of alternate models when usually the anti-GW crowd are all about alternate models.
What is not negative about parts of the army range going away, regardless of the maybe-temporary nature of that unavailability? It doesn't let them make new kits, because they've been ramping up on that over the years despite not doing range rotation.
See, that's your problem. You're so obsessed with seeing everything GW does as some slight that you'll just ignore that range rotation has been done with LotR and works fine. I never claimed it would allow new kits, I said it would be nice to see some. Everything has to be part of a big conspiracy for you otherwise you can't justify complaining all the time.
Go outside and touch some grass before you hurt yourself.
Wow, couldn't even answer one.
Just petty insults. Lovely.
Bob Lorgar wrote: What do the Dark Eldar have to do with Scenery Kits?
sacrusmundus has some awesome "dark eldar" style scenery for 3d prints, to my recollection i do not remember GW making any terrain for dark eldar proper.
Voss wrote: And I've noticed we've already gone from the range rotation is 'Fine because its just marine characters' to 'Ah, you didn't buy those anyway, and its nothing you want multiple of'
Apologetic actions are a form of escalation unto themselves, especially when it comes to GW. And the "don't care, got mine" attitude is strong with that one.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: The only puzzling thing I find is this whole 'rotation' idea since I can't really see any of these coming back.
It's probably just spin.
These models are going to a really nice farm up state where they can run and play as much as they like!
Crimson wrote: That's not puzzling, but when they do that to the only models for several codex entries in one army it is a tad alarming. And considering how hard they have been pushing for 'no model, no rules' it is bizarre. What the new Drukhari players are supposed to do? They will see several units in their codex the GW sells no models for.
Given the conclusion of the CHS case, smart bet is on those units just being removed from the Codex next time around.
So hope we get full Mandrake/Grotesque/Archon's Court/Beastmaster + Friends plastic releases, but don't expect it.
Bob Lorgar wrote: What do the Dark Eldar have to do with Scenery Kits?
Didn't want to start a whole new thread for basically the same topic?
You have to admit though rotating out some rarely-used DEldar finecast models is a completely different beast to, for example, cutting 2/3s the roster including core units and characters. That is when an army is losing its support as a faction.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: As with last month I find it hard to be upset or puzzled when a toy company discontinues low-selling 10 year+ old toys.
But that's not what they're doing. These models all (the ones we're talking about, anyway) have rules in their most recent codexes, some of which came out only a month or so ago. It is really weird to on the one hand have these pretensions of being a competitive game and seeing them put a lot of effort (with mixed at best results) into that side of things only to at the same time be doing something that results in situations where you can't buy models that have rules. At a minimum it shows a lack of joined-up thinking.
Voss wrote: I love this 'how dare you not like it, you must not be a real hobbyist' gatekeeping. And the wild assumption that anyone who doesn't like it never converts or kitbashes. [For clarity: this assumption is unsurprisingly baseless and wrong]
Never said you had to like it chief, just think people declaring this yet another end-of-the-world event is a joke. But sure, when you have ignored my point about there being loads of alternative options for those being removed (and at a better price bracket) how could I not be an elitist gatekeeper. Makes perfect sense.
Maybe instead of endlessly complaining, you could come up with solutions to the "problem". But complaining is easier isn't it?
So, on 'negative and fear-mongering' what, exactly, are the positives? What benefits is GW providing by disappearing parts of an army range? You've provided none, simply said it doesn't matter (to you, and therefor to everyone) because you've got yours and you'd rather convert anyway.
Less Finecast. Also, don't have any of the things going away and still don't understand why people seem so opposed to the concept of alternate models when usually the anti-GW crowd are all about alternate models.
What is not negative about parts of the army range going away, regardless of the maybe-temporary nature of that unavailability? It doesn't let them make new kits, because they've been ramping up on that over the years despite not doing range rotation.
See, that's your problem. You're so obsessed with seeing everything GW does as some slight that you'll just ignore that range rotation has been done with LotR and works fine. I never claimed it would allow new kits, I said it would be nice to see some. Everything has to be part of a big conspiracy for you otherwise you can't justify complaining all the time.
Go outside and touch some grass before you hurt yourself.
Wow, couldn't even answer one.
Just petty insults. Lovely.
I mean... I tend to make an effort to be pretty positive in online spaces. But whoa, when I read what Gert had written this time my eyes rolled on their own and I began to bleed from all of my orifices.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: As with last month I find it hard to be upset or puzzled when a toy company discontinues low-selling 10 year+ old toys.
But that's not what they're doing. These models all (the ones we're talking about, anyway) have rules in their most recent codexes, some of which came out only a month or so ago. It is really weird to on the one hand have these pretensions of being a competitive game and seeing them put a lot of effort (with mixed at best results) into that side of things only to at the same time be doing something that results in situations where you can't buy models that have rules. At a minimum it shows a lack of joined-up thinking.
Plenty of wargames, including GW up until Chapterhouse, have commonly released rules for units with no models and have been doing so for decades. It really isn't a big issue.
It isn't good in LotR either, people just accept it because LotR is a game that's been more or less on life support for a while now; it's got two book releases in the past two years, and very limited new model support. I'm not sure that's a great comparison. If LotR was the future of 40k, GW would be in big trouble.
I still don’t understand why they can’t have a “made to order” style category where you can register interest in a model (perhaps with a deposit or even a full pre-order), such that when they get to a reasonable number they can do a production run. Given how mainstream Kickstarter and other crowd-funding systems are these days, I’m sure the customers could cope with the concept of “you’ll get this in a while, but not now”.
yukishiro1 wrote: It isn't good in LotR either, people just accept it because LotR is a game that's been more or less on life support for a while now; it's got two book releases in the past two years, and very limited new model support. I'm not sure that's a great comparison. If LotR was the future of 40k, GW would be in big trouble.
You could take HH as an example then, Forgeworld has discontinued about 50% of the range years ago. Though I have to be careful there, GW definitely had their sights on folding the "old" Forgeworld into main line GW and have Forgeworld only do some specialist stuff and big kits even before Alan Bligh's passing.
Tbh, I have mixed feelings on the topics of discontinuation. On the one hand, I am used to way worse by other companies that run editions on their printruns and if you don't get your toys while they last, good luck praying for another print run or even just hope that they won't abandon the entire toyline. So I am glad when things just last for years with GW. They even still have half of the Krieg line, I was so sure it would have been discontinued and burried even in the background years ago. (Looking at you Elysia and Harakon, I have not forgotten you, even if GW denies you ever existed)
On the other hand GW is so laughingly obsessed to enforce model conventions that it steers the customer base such that they can only ever live with the original product. I understand that if I'd have expectation to myself to only use official products I'd feel slapped in the face if it would be just discontinued without substitute. GW used to be a lot healthier on the customise and scratch built front. I just wish that would come back, because it is logistically unavoidable that GW has to cut it's catalogue at some point and it sadly looks rather like GW is only getting more silly with their regulations.
Jadenim wrote: I still don’t understand why they can’t have a “made to order” style category where you can register interest in a model (perhaps with a deposit or even a full pre-order), such that when they get to a reasonable number they can do a production run. Given how mainstream Kickstarter and other crowd-funding systems are these days, I’m sure the customers could cope with the concept of “you’ll get this in a while, but not now”.
Beucase that doesn't generate hype when they do a "limited run" with all the fanfare and the related FOMO. See, for example, the latest SM captains one. Do you really think most of the people who end up buying one of those at those prices actually wanted or was looking to get one before they announced it?
This way they sell more of whatever they put up just because otherwise people will "miss out" on them. Or, IOW, "buy now, or else".
yukishiro1 wrote: It isn't good in LotR either, people just accept it because LotR is a game that's been more or less on life support for a while now; it's got two book releases in the past two years, and very limited new model support. I'm not sure that's a great comparison. If LotR was the future of 40k, GW would be in big trouble.
Well, but the rules would be better and longlived, narrative support would be stronger, balance would improve and there would never be any models phased out... Thinking about it treating 40K like Lotr would be the best thing that could happen to 40k
Jadenim wrote: I still don’t understand why they can’t have a “made to order” style category where you can register interest in a model (perhaps with a deposit or even a full pre-order), such that when they get to a reasonable number they can do a production run. Given how mainstream Kickstarter and other crowd-funding systems are these days, I’m sure the customers could cope with the concept of “you’ll get this in a while, but not now”.
Because that would probably require new functionality to be added to the online store that they don't want to pay for because they already paid far too much to Kirby's wife's tech company for it.
That and as Albertorius said, they want to capitalise on the psychological effect
HH and LotR pretty much live (life? not sure) from 3rd parties here
We have some big scenes for both, and while the LotR people praise historical ranges (like Victrix Normans) as base for conversions, the HH people say Hello to China
There is a reason GW goes plastic with a new armour mark
And for the online communities, the biggest complain I read nowadays about Kings of War is that there are units without model support (and Mantic should rather remove them until models are made, which is one reason why Deadzone and Firefight only have units in new Edition core rules were models are available)
For GW removing Finecast is understandable, but expect the units to be gone not replaced
This is just another sales model to clean stock before those are removed (as an alternative to sell them on discount)
I expect the next Editions will clean up the units and remove all non-plastic unit entries
Agamemnon2 wrote: And the 3rd edition "Grotesque" models are among the least successfully executed concepts of that old range, which is saying a lot. I don't think many people used them even back in 1998.
Them and the OG Oblits.
Not a great time for 'big' infantry.
While the oblits were much maligned at the time, those grotesques were anything but 'big'. They were just mishapen dark eldar warriors. Scrawny, metal, only a few different sculpts. They werent meant to be big at that time.
I know oblits werent very big either, but they sure did try to cram as much crap onto that 25mm base as they could. Literally. XD
Bob Lorgar wrote: What do the Dark Eldar have to do with Scenery Kits?
Didn't want to start a whole new thread for basically the same topic?
We should just have a mod change the thread title and make this the official Rotation/Last Chance to Buy thread.
It's not like GW will stop dropping things.
NinthMusketeer wrote: You have to admit though rotating out some rarely-used DEldar finecast models is a completely different beast to, for example, cutting 2/3s the roster including core units and characters. That is when an army is losing its support as a faction.
I'm inclined to say retiring Dark Eldar models of all things with no hint of plastic replacements sends the wrong message, considering how much the army has lost due to GW's reluctance to release new models for all those past HQ entries.
The issue I see with this whole deal is that while we have GW's explicit statement that they intend to keep the rules for these units around, there's no commitment to keeping them in the respective codices and we have long years of experience with how far GW is willing to take the no model, no rules concept. What is a loss in rarely bought models now may turn into a loss of options in the rules when the next codex rolls around.
Bob Lorgar wrote: What do the Dark Eldar have to do with Scenery Kits?
Didn't want to start a whole new thread for basically the same topic?
We should just have a mod change the thread title and make this the official Rotation/Last Chance to Buy thread.
It's not like GW will stop dropping things.
NinthMusketeer wrote: You have to admit though rotating out some rarely-used DEldar finecast models is a completely different beast to, for example, cutting 2/3s the roster including core units and characters. That is when an army is losing its support as a faction.
I'm inclined to say retiring Dark Eldar models of all things with no hint of plastic replacements sends the wrong message, considering how much the army has lost due to GW's reluctance to release new models for all those past HQ entries.
The issue I see with this whole deal is that while we have GW's explicit statement that they intend to keep the rules for these units around, there's no commitment to keeping them in the respective codices and we have long years of experience with how far GW is willing to take the no model, no rules concept. What is a loss in rarely bought models now may turn into a loss of options in the rules when the next codex rolls around.
Thats a good point actually, if the removal of model options will be reflected on the next wave of official dexes.
Personally Im inclined to believe that those chunks of models will be put on the rotation loop and then they will bring some few of them back for themed campaigns with multiple books. All will be limited in time and discontinued after.
If the reason given is really the lack of storage capacity then both main games will probably have constant rotation of miniatures that will appear back into production at random times for campaigns.
Also I dont know if their increase in merchandising products accelerated the storage issues.
People saying they dont sell so its fair enough may be in for a really nice future when all you will see stocked is different colours of space marines...
I prefer when things are clear and not muddy regarding catalogues to be honest. Cant have big ranges? Reduce them then and move along like others do.
I find it so strange that some people really want to be upset about this. Like, GW is not at all a company with a lack of policies to criticize or actions to be legitimately upset over. To pick this trivial instance is baffling to me. The loss of terrain kits is a bigger deal than the loss of some finecast DEldar no one planned to buy.
A couple of plastic Clawed Fiends in different poses would be nice. Really anything the Beastmaster has. Certainly would beat paying that price for the Razorwing flock.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I find it so strange that some people really want to be upset about this. Like, GW is not at all a company with a lack of policies to criticize or actions to be legitimately upset over. To pick this trivial instance is baffling to me. The loss of terrain kits is a bigger deal than the loss of some finecast DEldar no one planned to buy.
I find it so strange that some people really want to be upset about this. Like, GW is not at all a company with a lack of policies to criticize or actions to be legitimately upset over. To pick this trivial instance is baffling to me. The loss of space marine kits is a bigger deal than the loss of some terrain kits no one planned to buy.
We can be here all day... whats not important to you personally does not give you a free pass on shutting down whats important to others...
For me the saddest thing is that even if finecast isn't a popular material, I dislike when GW's battletomes/codex/games end up with models that you cannot purchase from them and can only get through 3rd parties, secondhand or converting.
I recall the days before Chapterhouse Lawsuit where GW was adding a lot more models to armies in Codex,but never getting around to release them as actual models. For anyone playing in GW stores (no 3rd party) or who just wanted an official army or who didn't have the skill to convert well - it meant many models that were new, shiny and great, were locked out to them.
This is kind of returning to those times, esp with the wave of Dark Eldar cuts.
Even if they aren't the best on the tabletop, I dislike people not having the choice from GW to buy those models. It's a shame and I really hope this is just a short term blip reflecting GW pushing finecast off the shelves; in advance of plastic updates.
It does seem that this is either a major production shortfall issue or that GW was planning on doing this, but lost time over the last 2 years to replace those kits with plastic ones that are designed; however they had to keep going as they'd cut supplies of finecast.
Interesting thing to note is that the last Made to Order for Eldar were all metal, despite some being finecast before the end. This might mean that if/when these models return they could be all metal again.
Overread wrote: For me the saddest thing is that even if finecast isn't a popular material, I dislike when GW's battletomes/codex/games end up with models that you cannot purchase from them and can only get through 3rd parties, secondhand or converting.
You'll like it even less when those things get cut because they have no available miniatures.
yukishiro1 wrote: It isn't good in LotR either, people just accept it because LotR is a game that's been more or less on life support for a while now; it's got two book releases in the past two years, and very limited new model support. I'm not sure that's a great comparison. If LotR was the future of 40k, GW would be in big trouble.
Terrible example. LotR is in the best place it's been for years. It gets steady releases, the majority of profiles are in just two books and gets less but much more high quality books. The game would suffer horribly if it suddenly got 40K's "spam 20 books in a six month period" release style. It doesn't need the bloat thanks. 40K could severely do with dialing back and actually following its release style.
Overread wrote: Even if they aren't the best on the tabletop, I dislike people not having the choice from GW to buy those models. It's a shame and I really hope this is just a short term blip reflecting GW pushing finecast off the shelves; in advance of plastic updates.
I'd like to share that hope, but I can't help but be wary due to plastic Marine characters taking a vacation as well. That sounds a lot like GW is weeding out poor sellers, which I imagine is generally applicable to Finecast models and so we see a lot of them go, but is bound to extend to other models as well. Best case scenario I can imagine is the reverse of what we see with battle boxes, where units get taken out of regular stock but kept in bundle boxes as a compromise to keep them around but not have the poorly selling individual boxes take up space.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I find it so strange that some people really want to be upset about this. Like, GW is not at all a company with a lack of policies to criticize or actions to be legitimately upset over. To pick this trivial instance is baffling to me. The loss of terrain kits is a bigger deal than the loss of some finecast DEldar no one planned to buy.
No one wanted to buy? They removed the only official models for several units. Those units still exist in a very recent codex.
This is not at all comparable to the terrain and marine characters, as plenty of official options to represent those remain.
But if GW wants to encourage people seeking third party alternatives, then this certainly is an effective way to do it!
Something like the Beastmaster always struck me as an option for consolidation into a single box of plastics: a few masters plus various beasties. Just like the Skaven set with three packmasters plus rat ogres and giant rats, or the box'o'beasties from Warcry.
Another option is to sneak releases out as a supplement to a boxed game. I have a nice unit of plastic Ur Ghuls from Blackstone Fortress that I picked up from eBay. Trouble is, we know that GW hates secondary markets.
GW tend not to sell mixed sets, but a box of "Drukhari support characters" (or whatever) is another option. The Genestealer Cults Broodcoven frame was originally sold in a boxed game with Deathwatch (see the previous paragraph), and made the transition to general release seamlessly.
I'm glad that I waited to see that this is indeed as bad as I suspected.
Perhaps if we WaIt ANd sEe a little longer, they'll rotate out an most of the rest of their Finecast experiment (I'm still waiting to see how that will turn out...)
Funny how people are very quick to jump in and say 'look I was right!' on the flimsiest grounds, yet when their predictions don't pan out they hardly line up to admit they were wrong.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I find it so strange that some people really want to be upset about this. Like, GW is not at all a company with a lack of policies to criticize or actions to be legitimately upset over. To pick this trivial instance is baffling to me. The loss of terrain kits is a bigger deal than the loss of some finecast DEldar no one planned to buy.
I find it so strange that some people really want to be upset about this. Like, GW is not at all a company with a lack of policies to criticize or actions to be legitimately upset over. To pick this trivial instance is baffling to me. The loss of space marine kits is a bigger deal than the loss of some terrain kits no one planned to buy.
We can be here all day... whats not important to you personally does not give you a free pass on shutting down whats important to others...
You misunderstand; I am saying that neither of these developments are a big deal. Yes, it sucks. But this is reality, and reality is that it does not make business sends to keep barely-moving product permanently available when periodic made-to-order runs are suitable for meeting customer demands. Black knights are making a mountain out of a molehill, despite the irony of doing so.
They've been making record profits maintaining the full range, I think they could afford to maintain a cupboard at the back of the warehouse with a half dozen units of the least popular models in stock as a customer service, rather than needing to make business cents.
Azreal13 wrote: They've been making record profits maintaining the full range, I think they could afford to maintain a cupboard at the back of the warehouse with a half dozen units of the least popular models in stock as a customer service, rather than needing to make business cents.
They haven't been maintaining the full range, or even close to it. 40k just hasn't been where most of the cuts were happening.
yukishiro1 wrote: It isn't good in LotR either, people just accept it because LotR is a game that's been more or less on life support for a while now; it's got two book releases in the past two years, and very limited new model support. I'm not sure that's a great comparison. If LotR was the future of 40k, GW would be in big trouble.
Terrible example. LotR is in the best place it's been for years. It gets steady releases, the majority of profiles are in just two books and gets less but much more high quality books. The game would suffer horribly if it suddenly got 40K's "spam 20 books in a six month period" release style. It doesn't need the bloat thanks. 40K could severely do with dialing back and actually following its release style.
I wasn't commenting on the quality. LotR is GW's best game rules-wise, there's no doubt about that. But there's also no doubt that it's very low on the priority when it comes to getting support. If 40k had the release schedule LotR does GW would be going bankrupt. You can't generate 250 million in yearly turnover on one book release and maybe 5ish new kits a year and when half the kits you have aren't even available for purchase because you rotated them out.
They do range rotation in LotR because sales are low and therefore the game isn't a big priority and it isn't worth keeping everything in stock. There is no world in which them doing it is good for the game or the consumer except possibly from the perspective that "it's better than the whole game being discontinued."
Range rotation isn't a good sign when it comes to a game. At best it is a bad thing that is less bad than losing support entirely. Which is why it's weird to see in 40k, a game that is wildly successful in sales volume. It is odd to see that GW isn't committed to keeping the entire range of 40k available.
Azreal13 wrote: They've been making record profits maintaining the full range, I think they could afford to maintain a cupboard at the back of the warehouse with a half dozen units of the least popular models in stock as a customer service, rather than needing to make business cents.
They haven't been maintaining the full range, or even close to it. 40k just hasn't been where most of the cuts were happening.
They haven't? My impression was range rotation was a very recent thing?
yukishiro1 wrote: It isn't good in LotR either, people just accept it because LotR is a game that's been more or less on life support for a while now; it's got two book releases in the past two years, and very limited new model support. I'm not sure that's a great comparison. If LotR was the future of 40k, GW would be in big trouble.
Terrible example. LotR is in the best place it's been for years. It gets steady releases, the majority of profiles are in just two books and gets less but much more high quality books. The game would suffer horribly if it suddenly got 40K's "spam 20 books in a six month period" release style. It doesn't need the bloat thanks. 40K could severely do with dialing back and actually following its release style.
I wasn't commenting on the quality. LotR is GW's best game rules-wise, there's no doubt about that. But there's also no doubt that it's very low on the priority when it comes to getting support. If 40k had the release schedule LotR does GW would be going bankrupt. You can't generate 250 million in yearly turnover on one book release and maybe 5ish new kits a year and when half the kits you have aren't even available for purchase because you rotated them out.
They do range rotation in LotR because sales are low and therefore the game isn't a big priority and it isn't worth keeping everything in stock. There is no world in which them doing it is good for the game or the consumer except possibly from the perspective that "it's better than the whole game being discontinued."
Range rotation isn't a good sign when it comes to a game. At best it is a bad thing that is less bad than losing support entirely. Which is why it's weird to see in 40k, a game that is wildly successful in sales volume. It is odd to see that GW isn't committed to keeping the entire range of 40k available.
Range rotation happens because the entire range is massive. Whether you think it's a low seller or not is really not relevant. You're more than welcome to go discuss it with Jay Clare and the reasons behind it on FB. He answers these questions quite often on the GBHL.
Azreal13 wrote: They've been making record profits maintaining the full range, I think they could afford to maintain a cupboard at the back of the warehouse with a half dozen units of the least popular models in stock as a customer service, rather than needing to make business cents.
They haven't been maintaining the full range, or even close to it. 40k just hasn't been where most of the cuts were happening.
They haven't? My impression was range rotation was a very recent thing?
Azreal13 wrote: They've been making record profits maintaining the full range, I think they could afford to maintain a cupboard at the back of the warehouse with a half dozen units of the least popular models in stock as a customer service, rather than needing to make business cents.
They haven't been maintaining the full range, or even close to it. 40k just hasn't been where most of the cuts were happening.
They haven't? My impression was range rotation was a very recent thing?
It is, because before they just cut stuff and maybe announced it ahead of time.
For old sculpts that have been superceded or are already fundamentally redundant.
But can you actually point to an instance prior to this range rotation where they've removed the only official option for a unit that is currently featured in up to date rules? Serious question.
Azreal13 wrote: They've been making record profits maintaining the full range, I think they could afford to maintain a cupboard at the back of the warehouse with a half dozen units of the least popular models in stock as a customer service, rather than needing to make business cents.
They haven't been maintaining the full range, or even close to it. 40k just hasn't been where most of the cuts were happening.
They haven't? My impression was range rotation was a very recent thing?
For 40k it is.
It's been happening in LOTR for years.
The comparison of 40K to LOTR is a little disingenuous, I'd be willing to bet there's a percentage of GW customers who for a long time didn't even know they made a LOTR game. Discontinued models for a gamethat was only slightly more alive than pre-relaunch Blood Bowl doesn't compare.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I find it so strange that some people really want to be upset about this. Like, GW is not at all a company with a lack of policies to criticize or actions to be legitimately upset over. To pick this trivial instance is baffling to me. The loss of terrain kits is a bigger deal than the loss of some finecast DEldar no one planned to buy.
No one wanted to buy? They removed the only official models for several units. Those units still exist in a very recent codex.
This is not at all comparable to the terrain and marine characters, as plenty of official options to represent those remain.
But if GW wants to encourage people seeking third party alternatives, then this certainly is an effective way to do it!
Both things can be true at the same time, an unit might be the only official model and it might sell so little that GW doesn't see much value in keeping it permanently in its range (for now, at least). By kicking it into this limbo state instead of actually killing it off they don't have to rush a new codex out where it's suddenly gone. They can also at any time release a new plastic model that might sell better due to its novelty factor (± FOMO, if it's limited), and whenever in the future they release a new codex they can think about what to do with that unit. They can keep it and make a new model for it, or they can streamline and splice it into another unit so old models are not wasted but it doesn't stay on as weight (an unit that exists but is not bought too often).
GW is an odd toy company. They sell most of a model in the first few months and then need to keep the stuff in rotation forever because it's in the rules and thus needed. Lego can drop old products at any time as long as the new stuff is just compatible with the same studs. And any normal toy company can create new and drop old lines at any time. I 100% understand that GW probably wants to regain some flexibility without alienating its user base too much. Any inventory management that doesn't kill off products creates a pile up of new kits over the years that become stale. They probably create an incredible long tail of products that have little sales and every new release becomes part of it in one/two years.
I also remember being able to keep up with GW's releases about two decades ago and having an overview of it. These days it feels like stuff's coming out at a somewhat accelerated pace. Maybe somebody has the numbers for that comparison? They might need to drop older products more harshly to keep things flowing. They are not selling mp3s via an online store and shelf/warehouse space is limited. Technically not killing off a product but dropping it until they decide on a long term solution (keep it, remake it, cut it) seems like a viable choice for a company that has to try to please a few different groups. It has its downsides (unit with rules but no models which creates opportunities for third party manufacturers) but seems better than completely killing it off (models and rules) and ending with users who now have obsolete models.
I haven't read all 3 pages in detail since the DE range rotation. I have skimmed them, and I'm with a lot of you on this one.
I do want, and have always wanted the Court of the Archon and Beast set for DE. I haven't purchased them because I'm always hoping for plastic. I am glad GW is announcing this- just like I was glad they announced the last rotation- rather than waking up one morning to just find it gone (like the BSF Ambull or the GSC Techtonic Frag Drill).
Let's talk about the models:
Lhamaean- not included in the announcement, but I wanted to point out that this exclusion from the rotate list MIGHT be an error, so if you want one, get it just in case. Of all the DE resin models, this one might be my favourite. New rules make Lhamaeans really cool story pieces- having poison distillery territories in Crusade provides a real story back-bone for Lhamaeans, and so many of the customization options available in the army lean into poison that you can create a real theme. I wish the models were posable, or that finecast was easier to convert- I'd like a matron and two apprentices. They would play nice with their Archon patron of course... But they would have their own agenda, and use him to acquire as many poison distilleries as possible.
Medusae- don't love these as much as Lhamaeans, but still like them enough that I want one or two.
Slyth- my favourite of the Court models in terms of rules, least favourite in terms of models. If anyone knows good third party Slyth substitutes, please let me know. If I can find good 3rd parties, I won't bother with these... but I do need something to represent them on the table because I want at least 2 in my army.
The beast models are my jam.
I really like the beastmaster, and the clawed fiends, but the Khymerae are my faves. It looks like there are two bodies and two sets of upper limbs, so there should be 4 combinations. If there were more, I'd buy ten of these damn things, but I will be content with four. I only need one fiend- again, I'd buy two if they were posable, but they aren't.
Side note: I have 4 classic metal warp beasts which I am using as kymerae pups. I will be playing with the warp beasts until they hit battle hardened, then I will replace them with full grown kymerae.
So I've got a lot of purchases ahead of me. And sure, I probably could convert, but I don't know if I would like the results as much as I like some of these models. I'm okay with GW forcing me to pull the trigger- again, I'm grateful they gave me enough advance notice that I can.
So I won't say the sky is falling- I try to be more nuanced than that as often as I can. I do think that this is a bad thing- I didn't mind the marine rotation as much because of the size of their range, however, at the time I did say that the next round of rotations would be less pleasnat, and I also predicted these specific DE models would be on the chopping block. And I do have some issues with this move- the DE range IS small enough as it is, and DE have lost a lot of rules for units since their peak. There would have been ways for the company to mitigate the trepidation I feel- as many have pointed out, this MIGHT lead to plastic replacements, and I particularly liked the suggestion that those replacements might take the form of a Kill Team. Hinting that this might occur could have gone a long way to making me feel better about it.
Range rotation happens because the entire range is massive. Whether you think it's a low seller or not is really not relevant. You're more than welcome to go discuss it with Jay Clare and the reasons behind it on FB. He answers these questions quite often on the GBHL.
Massive relative to the sales figures. I guarantee you they wouldn't rotate the range the way they do if LotR had sales like 40k (or even AOS) does. GW doesn't give up profit for no reason. The reason it does range rotation is because the lost sales are not greater than the logistical savings. And that's only true when sales are low relative to the range size.
One day GW will figure out the mysteries of the warp...er I mean online shopping. Come on guys, this is really difficult stuff. It's not like I was able to build a more functional website for $1,000 and a few days of work using bigcommerce. Oh, wait a minute... It blows my mind that their backend can't distinguish between "temporarily out of stock" and "you will never see this again so prepare to spend triple MSRP on ebay for it".
Azreal13 wrote: For old sculpts that have been superceded or are already fundamentally redundant.
But can you actually point to an instance prior to this range rotation where they've removed the only official option for a unit that is currently featured in up to date rules? Serious question.
And it is a fair question. A good example right now would be the Nighthaunt Guardian of Souls, which was exclusive to the 2nd edition starter that has been OOP for some time. Worse still it is a core part of the army's roster and critical to their performance.
It is something that has happened a lot in AoS. The units are cut entirely or replaced eventually, but there have been some pretty large gaps between models going OOP and that being reflected in the game rules.
The only puzzling thing I find is this whole 'rotation' idea since I can't really see any of these coming back.
Seeing gw is on 100% track record on also bringing stuff back when they say range rotation rather than removed i can.
If gw never said stulf is removed sure but since they historically have said stuff gets removed and historically stuff they said is rotated also comes back less reason to think they are deliberately lying.
The only puzzling thing I find is this whole 'rotation' idea since I can't really see any of these coming back.
Seeing gw is on 100% track record on also bringing stuff back when they say range rotation rather than removed i can.
If gw never said stulf is removed sure but since they historically have said stuff gets removed and historically stuff they said is rotated also comes back less reason to think they are deliberately lying.
Historically, GW has said just about anything and everything.
They do bring oop stuff back from time and time, with updated (more expensive) price ofc Dark Vengeance, Island of Blood, Space Hulk, that big observatory, destroyed chaos dreadhold wall
The only puzzling thing I find is this whole 'rotation' idea since I can't really see any of these coming back.
Seeing gw is on 100% track record on also bringing stuff back when they say range rotation rather than removed i can.
If gw never said stulf is removed sure but since they historically have said stuff gets removed and historically stuff they said is rotated also comes back less reason to think they are deliberately lying.
Historically, GW has said just about anything and everything.
But rarely flat out lie.
Again. They say when stuff are going out. And they have 100% track record on range rotation meaning just that. Range rotation. ie coming back as well as away.
Claiming NOW after 100% track record they actually mean gone for good...well that's just inventing new meanings out of your own head. There's word starting with l that applies to that.
The only puzzling thing I find is this whole 'rotation' idea since I can't really see any of these coming back.
Seeing gw is on 100% track record on also bringing stuff back when they say range rotation rather than removed i can.
If gw never said stulf is removed sure but since they historically have said stuff gets removed and historically stuff they said is rotated also comes back less reason to think they are deliberately lying.
Historically, GW has said just about anything and everything.
But rarely flat out lie.
Again. They say when stuff are going out. And they have 100% track record on range rotation meaning just that. Range rotation. ie coming back as well as away.
Claiming NOW after 100% track record they actually mean gone for good...well that's just inventing new meanings out of your own head. There's word starting with l that applies to that.
Didn't they also say (at least in the marines' case) that they might return, or they might not, and if they did return, it might be as a new sculpt?
The Warcom article said the models would come back at a later date and the FB page said "it was possible" that some of those rotated kits might get updates at some point. Nowhere was it said these kits were gone for good.
Chopstick wrote: They do bring oop stuff back from time and time, with updated (more expensive) price ofc Dark Vengeance, Island of Blood, Space Hulk, that big observatory, destroyed chaos dreadhold wall
I mean heck, Taco Bell said the Mexican Pizza would be gone forever on November 11, 2020. But here we are and May 17th isn't so far away!
On a more serious note: They reprinted Island of Blood?
On a more serious note: They reprinted Island of Blood?
They did twice, under the name Spire of Dawn, I remember it was pretty cheap (for GW at the time) in the first re release, but then it sold out and move to made to order some time later with a price hike, like 10-20$ more I don't remember, and google didn't bring much result about the 2nd re release.
Just went and ordered one Lhamaean, one beastmaster, one clawed fiend and a pair of kymerae.
If I don't get a chance to put in another, I can live with what I've ordered- I made sure to cover the most important bases. If I do get back, I'll go for a pair of medusae, a pair of slyth and another pair of khymerae. That will cover me entirely.
Just a heads up: everything except my lhamaean was a 180 day order. I'm hoping that's just their website being weird.
Final note: Researching lhamaean conversions, it looks like the GSC magus with a wych head and kabalite/ wych arms and weapons is the best option. That Magus model goes a long way- wanted to use her as a sister Famulous too- I'm converting up a House Locarno kill team, and a sister famulous would be an appropriate companion for a couple of Navigators and their Voidsmen at Arms.
The 180-day window is to prevent complaints about stuff taking ages. I've done 2 MTO runs in the past with the Vostroyans and the Ltd Ed Lt. The Vostryans were 2-3 months and the Lt was 4 IIRC. I'd completely forgotten I'd ordered him in fact and stuck another GW order in and it came bundled together.
Heh, I've become very conservative with my GW purchases over the last few years but by crikey I'd splurge on more than just a few copies of IoB at the old prices, same with Battle for Skull Pass... which I missed out on due to being on a hobby hiatus, damn!
I know I recall buying a bunch of the High Elves twice and then sold the lot when Ossiarchs came along to move into them. Granted I'd not touched the models save to clip them off the sprue and put into neat bags with a view to cleaning and then assembling in batches.
Island of Blood is the best starter GW has ever made, and many of the kits within are still fantastic. I don't think there is a better gryphon model anywhere, even this many years later. IMO they should have it on permanent direct-only status at the least. People want those models.
IoB is the closest I’ve come to starting fantasy, it was a great set. Fortunately I kept my nerve and avoided the whole end times / sigmarisation debacle…
I don't play fantasy and even I bought Island of Blood. Split it with a friend. He got the High Elves, and I got all the Skaven for Warhammer Quest purposes.
I regret not buying the IoB. Just didn't have the money at the time I was interested in getting it. Now I see NoS elf halves go for $300 plus. Skaven is slightly cheaper at about $200.
If they ever MtO it again, i'd snap up two in a heartbeat.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As Underworld boxes, with cards and whatnot, yes. But as separate boxed releases sans cards, in Age of Sigmar packaging? No, they hung around.
It's how I got Magore's Fiends and The Dread Pageant.
Ended up picking up another set of Thorns of the Briar queen, as I used two of the models from my original set for conversions. Great minis, and I do actually intend to use them some day in an Underworlds game, haha.
Moving older, slower sellers out of production until they have a focus on them again and then bring them back when they hype a relevant release to maximize the sales.
KidCthulhu wrote:Well, I guess this was the push I needed to finally get those Dread Pageant models.
Overread wrote:
KidCthulhu wrote: Well, I guess this was the push I needed to finally get those Dread Pageant models.
Same, but why couldn't they have released this info yesterday when I made a previous site order
Sabotage! wrote:Ended up picking up another set of Thorns of the Briar queen, as I used two of the models from my original set for conversions. Great minis, and I do actually intend to use them some day in an Underworlds game, haha.
Terrains are mostly produced in China so most likely GW don't want to expand their production oversea. Some terrain like the GSC Fragdrill go OOP very quickly after release.
Tamereth wrote: Old fine cast / metal models I can understand, but 2-3 year old plastic kits makes zero sense. What is GW playing at?
My guess would be because of limited sales. Those models are beyond useless in normal games of AoS with absolutely horrendous rules. I am sure someone, somewhere plays the Underworlds games, but I've never see it played in any of the stores I visit, and many of the expansions on our local shelves have such a thick layer of dust on them that I don't think they've even been touched in over a year or more.
We also have them ramping up for 30K getting a plastic release. In general Marine releases hit VERY heavily and Indomitus was an insane release for GW. Perhaps they are sweeping some of the chaff out of the system not just for finecast, but also to free up plastic casting by removing some niche product lines so that they can free up production to tackle a BIG approaching release. It might also be allowing them to shift things for a short term big release of models as they build up toward the launch, hence why its all happening right now in advance of a Q2 production push.
We also know that whilst the UK is steadily appearing to approach a point where Corona safety measures can be removed, we are not yet at that point. So the factory likely still has covid measures. Even without that there's also the potential that they might be under-powered from the local power grid.
Suffice to say I can see logic in this move even if I don't wholesale like it. Especially as those models are really some of the best AoS stuff out there; and they DO have Battletome rules. Heck the DoK set was starting to show that GW was developing some pretty sane way to use them in game.
while they have give AoS rules to the underworld bands none of them were real 'must haves' as they're mixed weapon/ability/stats units (well apart from Molog where the squigs dont really count) so not terribly efficient at any job you give them
so they're really only selling those to painters and not to gamers (and as the bands rotate out of usefulness there are going to be a good chunk on the second hand market too)
so i'm not too surprised they're going now they've started to rotate the main 40K and AoS ranges
Togusa wrote: I've never see it played in any of the stores I visit, and many of the expansions on our local shelves have such a thick layer of dust on them that I don't think they've even been touched in over a year or more.
Same experience here in Florida. I've seen just about everything under the sun being played, new/old KT, necromunda, titanicus, 40k, aos, infinity, WMH, xwing, legion, etc but not one single soul playing underworlds and all the boxes on the local shelves need dusted.
People buy the Underworlds warbands at my FLGS, but I'm not sure any of them do it to actually play Underworlds. I always wonder what the player count is on the smaller side games.
Hmm, I think I have all the ones I was interested in. It'll be a shame to be unable to pick one of these up at one's discretion, though. Underworlds added a lot of characterful sculpts that can be used as alternate characters, if you're not into the units' actual rules. Not a fan of seeing that potential go.
Underworlds is the perfect home coffee table game, small footprint, done in half an hour, I'd imagine it gets played much more in homes that at shops.
These are no use for that though as they don't have the fighter cards. They repackage the stuff after for AoS without the cards. The Beastgrave stuff was only released this way about 6 months ago though, so I wonder if they are just phasing out the whole re-release thing altogether.
deano2099 wrote: Underworlds is the perfect home coffee table game, small footprint, done in half an hour, I'd imagine it gets played much more in homes that at shops.
These are no use for that though as they don't have the fighter cards. They repackage the stuff after for AoS without the cards. The Beastgrave stuff was only released this way about 6 months ago though, so I wonder if they are just phasing out the whole re-release thing altogether.
Would probably make sense for them. They have proven popular, so why sell them for cheaper if you can make people who want it buy the Underworlds (pricier) version even if they don't have a use for the printed stuff?
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: while they have give AoS rules to the underworld bands none of them were real 'must haves' as they're mixed weapon/ability/stats units (well apart from Molog where the squigs dont really count) so not terribly efficient at any job you give them
so they're really only selling those to painters and not to gamers (and as the bands rotate out of usefulness there are going to be a good chunk on the second hand market too)
so i'm not too surprised they're going now they've started to rotate the main 40K and AoS ranges
Morgwraeth was at one point the 3rd best unit in the DoK roster, then 3rd came out and literally doubled her point cost so no one brought her ever again.
Yep the rotation keeps on taking more and more kits away.
I have a tin foil hat theory about these kits is that for the most part these small warbands were actually very well priced and a cheap way to get some really unique models... I think that GW doesn't really want that.
Today I went to a local GW store and cheapest we could find was blisters of individual minis around or close to the £20 mark up.
So I have the feeling this rotation on these kits is just to bring some of them at later date with a HUGE price increase.
NAVARRO wrote: Yep the rotation keeps on taking more and more kits away.
I have a tin foil hat theory about these kits is that for the most part these small warbands were actually very well priced and a cheap way to get some really unique models... I think that GW doesn't really want that.
Today I went to a local GW store and cheapest we could find was blisters of individual minis around or close to the £20 mark up.
So I have the feeling this rotation on these kits is just to bring some of them at later date with a HUGE price increase.
In terms of price per figure on high quality individual sculpts the Warcry cults blast these out of the water.
NAVARRO wrote: Yep the rotation keeps on taking more and more kits away.
I have a tin foil hat theory about these kits is that for the most part these small warbands were actually very well priced and a cheap way to get some really unique models... I think that GW doesn't really want that.
Today I went to a local GW store and cheapest we could find was blisters of individual minis around or close to the £20 mark up.
So I have the feeling this rotation on these kits is just to bring some of them at later date with a HUGE price increase.
For some of them buying the entire warband for a alternate sculpt of an existing model was cheaper than buying the actual AoS model.
UW only did as well as it did by being relatively cheap. As soon as GW did it's usual thing of expecting the whales to prop up those who were priced out, the local scene started dying off and it doesn't sound an unusual story from what I've seen.
NAVARRO wrote: Yep the rotation keeps on taking more and more kits away.
I have a tin foil hat theory about these kits is that for the most part these small warbands were actually very well priced and a cheap way to get some really unique models... I think that GW doesn't really want that.
Today I went to a local GW store and cheapest we could find was blisters of individual minis around or close to the £20 mark up.
So I have the feeling this rotation on these kits is just to bring some of them at later date with a HUGE price increase.
For some of them buying the entire warband for a alternate sculpt of an existing model was cheaper than buying the actual AoS model.
For example; the Kharadron Khemist was more expensive on it's own, than the entire Underworlds warband the alternate sculpt came bundled with.
Maybe they'll be re-releasing them complete with cards featuring the new backs. At $50 each ($85 Canadian, $365 Ausibux).
Really disappointing. At the $25 price point I picked up some just to add some diversity to my pile of shame. They were like a more coherent, modern version of those old old super cheap Warhammer Quest boxes packed with assorted wizards or fighters or monsters.
GaroRobe wrote: Just to double check, are we sure this is a range rotation and not a last chance to buy forever?
The email said range rotation.
Call me overly cynical but with the backlash they get when LCTB'ing stuff I wouldn't be too shocked if this is just their new, default language for it.
"It MIGHT come back in ten years, so it's still a rotation and not really a squat!"
Here's an idea, how about you look at the fact that LotR has range rotation and see how that works, while giving the 40k rotation more than 3 months and the AoS rotation more than a day before putting on the conspiracy hat.
NAVARRO wrote: Yep the rotation keeps on taking more and more kits away.
I have a tin foil hat theory about these kits is that for the most part these small warbands were actually very well priced and a cheap way to get some really unique models... I think that GW doesn't really want that.
Today I went to a local GW store and cheapest we could find was blisters of individual minis around or close to the £20 mark up.
So I have the feeling this rotation on these kits is just to bring some of them at later date with a HUGE price increase.
In all seriousness, what's likely driving this is that they only have so many production hours in any given time period. Demand has demonstrably grown in recent years, putting a real focus on every man hour used and production planning.
To increase capacity, GW can either take on more staff and buy more machines (something that's either already happened or is in progress, not up to date on that) or start running their existing facilities for more hours (ie add a night shift.)
If, as seems reasonable, these kits and models are low volume, then a third option of just not making them is probably going to cost them less in turnover from the lost sales than the investment in capacity to keep making them, probably by orders of magnitude.
That when they do ultimately get allocated a production slot and remanufactured that they'll undergo a price hike is just an inevitability of how GW operates.
Edit: That's assuming, of course, GW haven't already spent heavily on increasing capacity and are now at a dead end with what can be done reasonably in the short to medium term, and this is the least worst option, financially speaking, in order to keep the big sellers and new releases as available as possible.
Gert wrote: Here's an idea, how about you look at the fact that LotR has range rotation and see how that works, while giving the 40k rotation more than 3 months and the AoS rotation more than a day before putting on the conspiracy hat.
How long had most of the Moria goblins range been unavailable for before coming back next month? Grab 'em before you can't buy most of the faction again!
Gert wrote: Here's an idea, how about you look at the fact that LotR has range rotation and see how that works, while giving the 40k rotation more than 3 months and the AoS rotation more than a day before putting on the conspiracy hat.
LotR? You mean that game where every time I've looked at getting back into for many years doesn't have available the models I need to put together the faction in the way I'd like?
Is there good notice of things coming in stock or do they just appear and disappear?
When a range rotation has happened, they're into stock until they get rotated out again.
I realize that might sound stupid as an explanation--but it's the best I can do, as I've not sat there and tracked it all in a spreadsheet or whatnots. There's some kits(Vanquishers of the Necromancer immediately springs to mind) that went away for years, but have become permanently part of the range again. Argument could be made that them being a "direct only" item negates that, but considering only Battle of Pelennor Fields is stocked in GW stores, I feel that argument is moot.
GW's made it clear months in advance of the range rotations on that front though.
NAVARRO wrote: Yep the rotation keeps on taking more and more kits away.
I have a tin foil hat theory about these kits is that for the most part these small warbands were actually very well priced and a cheap way to get some really unique models... I think that GW doesn't really want that.
Today I went to a local GW store and cheapest we could find was blisters of individual minis around or close to the £20 mark up.
So I have the feeling this rotation on these kits is just to bring some of them at later date with a HUGE price increase.
In all seriousness, what's likely driving this is that they only have so many production hours in any given time period. Demand has demonstrably grown in recent years, putting a real focus on every man hour used and production planning.
To increase capacity, GW can either take on more staff and buy more machines (something that's either already happened or is in progress, not up to date on that) or start running their existing facilities for more hours (ie add a night shift.)
If, as seems reasonable, these kits and models are low volume, then a third option of just not making them is probably going to cost them less in turnover from the lost sales than the investment in capacity to keep making them, probably by orders of magnitude.
That when they do ultimately get allocated a production slot and remanufactured that they'll undergo a price hike is just an inevitability of how GW operates.
Edit: That's assuming, of course, GW haven't already spent heavily on increasing capacity and are now at a dead end with what can be done reasonably in the short to medium term, and this is the least worst option, financially speaking, in order to keep the big sellers and new releases as available as possible.
It might also be that things like covid safe work practice and lower limits on the power supply are still hampering GW's factory from operating at full capacity. This is without considering that they might have other issues too. Eg issues with getting kits overseas might mean they are having to produce more kits in advance to ship overseas further in advance so that fewer releases get delayed.
I also think that they are expecting the 30K release in the summer go be a bit like Indomitus and sell like crazy. So it could be that some of this is to free up production now in Q2 to prepare for a BIG run up to the summer release.
Finecast being removed might also have been a long established plan; only with delays they might not have got all the replacement kits out that they'd hoped too. But the policy was still set in motion with things like finecast stock orders being reduced etc...
Or maybe its more of the same with GW clearing space for FW to have more resin printing capacity now that FW is also being sold on the main site and might, again, see a big spike when 30K plastic goes live.
I don't "like" range rotation, but I can see several logical reasons why GW might have to adopt this policy. My hope is that its a short to medium term thing and that its something they can take out in the future.
Also with expansion we have to consider that GW keeps most production in the UK so expansion is really expensive for them. Furthermore whilst they've gained huge traction over the last 2 years, its totally unknown if that will translate into maintained and continued growth over the next 5-10 years. It's really too small a time frame to make massive expansion choices on as in 5 years GW might see reduced sales without doing anything wrong; just as all those people who came back go back to normal life and start spending more on other things (eg going out) and less on hobbies. It might also just happen because of things like living costs going up a lot (everyone has a near on 2X electric bill now) and thus sapping away hobby money.
So right now GW is in a very healthy position, but might not feel its the right time to expand operations in a big way.
Gert wrote: Here's an idea, how about you look at the fact that LotR has range rotation and see how that works, while giving the 40k rotation more than 3 months and the AoS rotation more than a day before putting on the conspiracy hat.
How long had most of the Moria goblins range been unavailable for before coming back next month? Grab 'em before you can't buy most of the faction again!
Those models were gone years before range rotation came into play so it’s good that they are finally coming back. The two goblin kings were removed as part of range rotation around a year ago and are coming back now.
Is there good notice of things coming in stock or do they just appear and disappear?
I really have no idea how long they're gone, but when I jump on the store and can't find all of what I want, I generally jump back off rather than buying what is available to wait until the other stuff comes back in stock.
NAVARRO wrote: Yep the rotation keeps on taking more and more kits away.
I have a tin foil hat theory about these kits is that for the most part these small warbands were actually very well priced and a cheap way to get some really unique models... I think that GW doesn't really want that.
Today I went to a local GW store and cheapest we could find was blisters of individual minis around or close to the £20 mark up.
So I have the feeling this rotation on these kits is just to bring some of them at later date with a HUGE price increase.
In all seriousness, what's likely driving this is that they only have so many production hours in any given time period. Demand has demonstrably grown in recent years, putting a real focus on every man hour used and production planning.
To increase capacity, GW can either take on more staff and buy more machines (something that's either already happened or is in progress, not up to date on that) or start running their existing facilities for more hours (ie add a night shift.)
If, as seems reasonable, these kits and models are low volume, then a third option of just not making them is probably going to cost them less in turnover from the lost sales than the investment in capacity to keep making them, probably by orders of magnitude.
That when they do ultimately get allocated a production slot and remanufactured that they'll undergo a price hike is just an inevitability of how GW operates.
Edit: That's assuming, of course, GW haven't already spent heavily on increasing capacity and are now at a dead end with what can be done reasonably in the short to medium term, and this is the least worst option, financially speaking, in order to keep the big sellers and new releases as available as possible.
It might also be that things like covid safe work practice and lower limits on the power supply are still hampering GW's factory from operating at full capacity. This is without considering that they might have other issues too. Eg issues with getting kits overseas might mean they are having to produce more kits in advance to ship overseas further in advance so that fewer releases get delayed.
I also think that they are expecting the 30K release in the summer go be a bit like Indomitus and sell like crazy. So it could be that some of this is to free up production now in Q2 to prepare for a BIG run up to the summer release.
Finecast being removed might also have been a long established plan; only with delays they might not have got all the replacement kits out that they'd hoped too. But the policy was still set in motion with things like finecast stock orders being reduced etc...
Or maybe its more of the same with GW clearing space for FW to have more resin printing capacity now that FW is also being sold on the main site and might, again, see a big spike when 30K plastic goes live.
I don't "like" range rotation, but I can see several logical reasons why GW might have to adopt this policy. My hope is that its a short to medium term thing and that its something they can take out in the future.
Also with expansion we have to consider that GW keeps most production in the UK so expansion is really expensive for them. Furthermore whilst they've gained huge traction over the last 2 years, its totally unknown if that will translate into maintained and continued growth over the next 5-10 years. It's really too small a time frame to make massive expansion choices on as in 5 years GW might see reduced sales without doing anything wrong; just as all those people who came back go back to normal life and start spending more on other things (eg going out) and less on hobbies. It might also just happen because of things like living costs going up a lot (everyone has a near on 2X electric bill now) and thus sapping away hobby money.
So right now GW is in a very healthy position, but might not feel its the right time to expand operations in a big way.
I think its probably a mix of different reasons that sends kits into the rotation limbo but surely we will have a clearer evidence of the motivation behind it soon enough.
Is it purely a warehouse space maintenance, making space for other armies, unpopular kits, cheaper kits or something else?
I will keep an eye on the few cheaper kits that are still around.
Lotr may cope well with the sluggish rotation periods since lets face it is not as popular as the main 2 systems... 40k and AoS fans will probably struggle even more to keep their projects updated.
It just boils down to this, no models no buy. In a couple years time no one will have a track record of what is in rotation or discontinued...
Slyth- my favourite of the Court models in terms of rules, least favourite in terms of models. If anyone knows good third party Slyth substitutes, please let me know. If I can find good 3rd parties, I won't bother with these... but I do need something to represent them on the table because I want at least 2 in my army.
Diehard Minis do several Snakemen minis, as do Reaper. Slap a few DE bits on them and they're good to go. If you want to keep in the GW ecosystem I've seen several conversions made from the AoS Melusai. I was certain ArtelW did one (as they do all of the other Court minis), but I can't find one on their site.
Chopstick wrote: Would be nice if they repurpose those models for some type of co-op/solo game like Rangers of Shadow Deep.
Sounds like a great idea!
I was thinking about the Godsworn Hunt and a Shardspeaker as a warband & wizard for Frostgrave/Perilous Dark, but the Godsworn Hunt are no longer in stock and I doubt they'll get them back in now...
I was thinking about the Godsworn Hunt and a Shardspeaker as a warband & wizard for Frostgrave/Perilous Dark, but the Godsworn Hunt are no longer in stock and I doubt they'll get them back in now...
They're available as part of the Warcry Blade Born board game, you can try search for them or find ebay seller that sold them separatedly. There's also Darkoath chieftain, which is from the same faction(and probably one of the best models GW had ever made), and the Darkoath Savagers, currently only available in the Red Harvest box, but you can always find them on ebay or split it.
), and as aphyon mentioned above, friend of mine just got a FDM printer, so that's going to be incredible.
the Imperial Bastion was designed so that you could easily combine multiple kits together to make larger structures. They even come with the parts to connect floor panels of multiple kits together.
