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Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/25 16:08:18


Post by: Crablezworth


Sat down and talked about the leaks for HH 2.0, it's mostly discussion and commentary, wouldn't look to this to be informed, it's mostly about what has changed between editions and demonstrating that with models/terrain, like changes to movement and so on. I forgot to plug in the battery charger so we was scrambling between like 3 batteries all under like 30-40% power so I kept having to check to see if we were still recording, camera doesn't make a noise if the battery is what causes the recording to stop and external monitor was elsewhere. Anyway, pretty loose discussion, we're hoping to do some more as more things materialize. In both our cases, we're a bit burned out on alternating activation, been playing AT mostly, so the reactions stuff really didn't sit well, it seemed initially contained but quickly proved to be much more ingrained in the rules. It seems difficult to extricate from the rules, unlike in adeptus titanicus where we could just agree to not use stratagems or limit them. We recently got back to playing 30k 1.0 and what felt like a breath of fresh air was, our turns were our own.

There can be a lot of decision paralysis in games with alternating activations and gotcha mechanics like stratagems. What's refreshing about playing a good old fashioned turn based game again in terms of 30k is, the movement phase is your movement phase, the shooting phase you can again take as it comes and target what you want and maybe even change your mind as you go based on your success and failures in terms of hits/misses, combat phase even feels like you're in the driver seat, you can actually decide the order of everything and what units if any you wish to attempt to assault. None of this is contingent on constantly alternating with your opponent to counter the action you just took. Alternating activation can be great and very enjoyable, but decision paralysis and weird interactions can lead to forgetting where you're at, in adeptus titanicus for example something like a machine spirit getting angry can lead to a whole bunch of sorta extra attacks or damage or a series of bizarre occurrence that can often sorta exist outside of time, because you often sorta resolve it all then get right back to alternating activation, it feels like time dilation sometimes, it can get a bit confusing picking up where you were. The reactions in HH 2.0 start at 2 per phase and there are some limits, but quickly you realize wargear, characters and warlord traits can expand on these limits. In addition, special reactions seem to be part of every legion, meaning just like stratagems there will be a lot of them to contend with and have to commit to memory. And much like the "muh bespoke" laziness of special rules where one usr or reaction might do, some reaction for legios might just be a better version of an existing reaction or functionally identical but more movement value. The counter play basically seems like more stuff causes pinning and pinned units can't use strats/react.

Why the introductions of reactions really get away from itself quickly is you have wargear like say augery scanners that will give intercepts that don't count towards the total reactions you can do in an opponents phase and intercepting doesn't seem to have any downside unlike the current edition, then you have stuff like "the last unit you moved ended with x of my unit, so now i can move away x or advance x or shoot your unit ect. So your turn is no longer your own and decision paralysis will be high or people are going to get very anal about measuring, especially if you end perhaps one inch further than intended triggering a potential reaction, some of us play tired, and all of a sudden trigger a huge string of reactions from your opponent. The other issue is how to scale something like this for games with multiple players or mega battles. How would a 2v2 work realistically if you can grind down and disrupt your opponents turn twice as much as normal, and the same on your turn. I mean that's one thing on an 8x4, but how big can you go, mega battles tend to be at times on longer board like 12x4 ect, so like two long lines clashing, even if you tried to limit reactions how would the accounting of it all even be possible to all participants? These were complex enough to play in a reasonable time in 1.0. "Sorry steve, you can't evade anymore, we ran out of the concept of trying to actively not get shot" and evade means basically everything can do crappier jink now, but not too many! (ugh) This is meant to replace like going to ground, but I'm not sure why you'd do that or need to limit how many units go to ground, going to ground in hh 1.0 is basically self pinning your own unit, and it's often done out of desperation, like just trying to not get shot off an objective. This hybrid choice also sees stuff like treaded vehicles basically being able to jink/evade/go to ground, whatever you wanna call it.

There are bizarre changes to much loved units like javelins, sabre tanks are now much faster, or at least able to be in terms of overall movement. We had hoped that terrain would be addressed because it was something lacking in 1.0, we often used/borrowed terrain rules from the 6th 40k book because it had detailed rules for ruins and various other types of terrain, as well as an overall recommendation of density and a methodology for players to discuss and agree on terrain before dice roll. The biggest thing was like delineating what could and could not move on or deploy on the upper floors of ruins and how pathing worked, like melting through walls or doors and so on. It was useful because it helped keep say a unit on bikes from being able to assault a unit entirely on the 2nd floor of a ruin, or keep people from placing artillery on top of ruins or sillier stuff like rhinos. Sadly 2.0 basically just says "it's difficult terrain" for the most part. In addition cover saves have basically got worse across the board. I think a range of cover saves is better than pushing them mostly towards 5-6+. We mostly played ruins and most solid cover as 4+ in our games of HH and most low cover (sand bags/fences) as 5+.

I don't want to seem to negative, I'm actually quite happy that we'll be seeing new plastics and hopefully support for some time. What I think I'm more skeptical of is even with the pandemic winding down and gaming getting back to more normalcy/frequency I still don't think that means games/hobbyists will see a marked difference in their free time, if anything with more people perhaps no longer working from home as much, they may also eat into hobby/gaming time in terms of commuting/daily grind being more taxing/stressful. Anyway. what I'm saying is outside of people buying the models just to build and paint, the people intending or perhaps fooling themselves into starting HH 2.0 is I don't know if it will last for all of them, simply because like any new game it will likely come at the expense of less attention paid to other games. Can only play so many wargames regularly. There's a section of gamers likely just going to buy the models for 40k use no matter what. Will they suddenly decide they prefer 30k? I don't think it will hook all of them, the same way AT has a vast but limited appeal, only in that its mono faction and there aren't any xenos, much like 30k with the exception of daemons of the ruinstorm and a few other factions outside of marines, but all generally imperial or traitor. Not quite the same as the amount of factions in 9th in terms of all the xenos factions and variety. I just know it will likely have to in some cases cannibalize from other games to hold it's niche, while its possible to conceive of playing both 40k and 30k, I just think it won't have enough to keep the majority of 40k fans invested, at least in the way they are with 9th. The other concern is gw emulating more and more of 9th ed decision marking to try and bring them in. The last tournament I photographed, the majority of 30k models were being used for 40k.

My interest is to continue playing 30k 1.0 based on the leaks. I'll be very content to have a shiny new plastic spartan and potential other new things if gw releases some cool stuff. But I'm gonna do what I can't help but feel most of the 40k players will do also do, buy the models that are cool and use them for another game than HH 2.0. More videos to come.






Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/26 07:47:21


Post by: kirotheavenger


You touched on one of my issues with reactions - their relation to the real world.

I really dislike any weird 'meta' rules that don't make sense in the real world.

"sorry guys, you can't duck because someone's already used the ducking quota for this moment" just make no sense. Those sorts of rules really rip you out of the battle and remind you it's just a game with silly game-isms.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/26 14:06:17


Post by: Crablezworth


 kirotheavenger wrote:
You touched on one of my issues with reactions - their relation to the real world.

I really dislike any weird 'meta' rules that don't make sense in the real world.

"sorry guys, you can't duck because someone's already used the ducking quota for this moment" just make no sense. Those sorts of rules really rip you out of the battle and remind you it's just a game with silly game-isms.


It's also the like fetish gw has for alternating activation, which in a way is like saying "turn based has some issues, so we need HYPER turn based". I think just good old turn based is a pretty good system, I don't know why they feel the need to re-invent the wheel on this one,

It reminds me of when they released the maelstrom stuff for 40k, it feels like the maelstrom cards to me "the game isn't exciting enough, we need random missions evey 5 second with random vp allotment" and to your point it feels like the furthest thing from any real world conception of a battle, in the real world objectives of battle don't change every 5 seconds nor are they always interesting or that exciting it's more like "5700 people died defending that hill that's so special we didn't even name it". So it feels like strat-reactions are just a weird stop gap mechanic the marketing boys forced in there.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/26 15:17:06


Post by: chaos0xomega


 Crablezworth wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
You touched on one of my issues with reactions - their relation to the real world.

I really dislike any weird 'meta' rules that don't make sense in the real world.

"sorry guys, you can't duck because someone's already used the ducking quota for this moment" just make no sense. Those sorts of rules really rip you out of the battle and remind you it's just a game with silly game-isms.


It's also the like fetish gw has for alternating activation, which in a way is like saying "turn based has some issues, so we need HYPER turn based". I think just good old turn based is a pretty good system, I don't know why they feel the need to re-invent the wheel on this one,

It reminds me of when they released the maelstrom stuff for 40k, it feels like the maelstrom cards to me "the game isn't exciting enough, we need random missions evey 5 second with random vp allotment" and to your point it feels like the furthest thing from any real world conception of a battle, in the real world objectives of battle don't change every 5 seconds nor are they always interesting or that exciting it's more like "5700 people died defending that hill that's so special we didn't even name it". So it feels like strat-reactions are just a weird stop gap mechanic the marketing boys forced in there.


Yes, because "I'm going to stand here and wait while your entire force maneuvers and then fires off a volley against me and charges into melee with my troops before I take any action of my own" is a *perfect* facsimile of a real world conception of a battle

Some of you guys never cease to amaze me with the immense lack of logical consistency you display in your complaints. On that note - not sure where you get you get the idea that GW has a "fetish" for alternating activation, considering 90% of their games are based on an IGOUGO/turn based rules structure (and the reason why they might want to depart from it is because contrary to your assertion that its a "pretty good system", the biggest, longest running, most consistent complaint about GWs rules is that IGOUGO sucks, is a major contributing factor to the prominence of alpha strike and first turn advantage in the game, and leaves one player standing there twiddling their thumbs for 30 minutes while they watch their opponent pick their army apart).


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/26 16:11:41


Post by: Skimask Mohawk


chaos0xomega wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
You touched on one of my issues with reactions - their relation to the real world.

I really dislike any weird 'meta' rules that don't make sense in the real world.

"sorry guys, you can't duck because someone's already used the ducking quota for this moment" just make no sense. Those sorts of rules really rip you out of the battle and remind you it's just a game with silly game-isms.


It's also the like fetish gw has for alternating activation, which in a way is like saying "turn based has some issues, so we need HYPER turn based". I think just good old turn based is a pretty good system, I don't know why they feel the need to re-invent the wheel on this one,

It reminds me of when they released the maelstrom stuff for 40k, it feels like the maelstrom cards to me "the game isn't exciting enough, we need random missions evey 5 second with random vp allotment" and to your point it feels like the furthest thing from any real world conception of a battle, in the real world objectives of battle don't change every 5 seconds nor are they always interesting or that exciting it's more like "5700 people died defending that hill that's so special we didn't even name it". So it feels like strat-reactions are just a weird stop gap mechanic the marketing boys forced in there.


Yes, because "I'm going to stand here and wait while your entire force maneuvers and then fires off a volley against me and charges into melee with my troops before I take any action of my own" is a *perfect* facsimile of a real world conception of a battle

Some of you guys never cease to amaze me with the immense lack of logical consistency you display in your complaints. On that note - not sure where you get you get the idea that GW has a "fetish" for alternating activation, considering 90% of their games are based on an IGOUGO/turn based rules structure (and the reason why they might want to depart from it is because contrary to your assertion that its a "pretty good system", the biggest, longest running, most consistent complaint about GWs rules is that IGOUGO sucks, is a major contributing factor to the prominence of alpha strike and first turn advantage in the game, and leaves one player standing there twiddling their thumbs for 30 minutes while they watch their opponent pick their army apart).


Most "alpha strike" is really just getting shot off the board by direct fire weapons; it's almost always a symptom of gak terrain that doesn't break up LOS or firing lanes. You get better terrain and terrain rules, you get less alpha strike. You can look at 9th edition WTC boards and get a vibe for how there might be a difference between how first turn shooting can be applied:

Spoiler:


WTC



Terrible local tournament




Other than terrain enabling direct fire, the main culprits of alpha strike are barrage and pods in 30k. Both got dialed back significantly. Pods come in turn 2; the strongest barrage is AP3 with rending (and night fight stops it from happening on turn 1 altogether now). They've addressed the alpha strike weakness of IGOUGO 30k, but they've also added in interruption mechanics; some of which can result in you twiddling your thumbs for 30 minutes in your own turn, while your opponent picks apart your deepstriking forces.

I'd argue their fetish is for powerful gotcha interruption mechanics, as they usually don't resemble true alternate activation. What they're there for is to give players a chance to do "something cool" in the face of GW's rampant design inflation. You didn't need that kind of mechanic in 5th, but you certainly need it in the face of 9ths lethality. And gak terrain standards.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/26 16:28:13


Post by: chaos0xomega


That WTC terrain is an awful real world conception of a battle, did the terrain organizer never hear of urban planning? Corners of ruined buildings just haphazardly and randomly scattered around without deference to the actual layout of where buildings would stand - a couple of them look like they have parks growing right through where the continuation of their walls should be, etc. What a travesty! (In all seriousness though, terrain of that level of density might be good in terms of neutering first turn advantage and alpha strike but you're basically screwed if you wanted to show up to the game with a Baneblade (or I assume a Knight) - there are basically entire sections of the table that larger models would have limited or no means of accessing because of how tightly spaced everything is preventing you from actually physically placing models there).


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/26 16:39:06


Post by: Skimask Mohawk


chaos0xomega wrote:
That WTC terrain is an awful real world conception of a battle, did the terrain organizer never hear of urban planning? Corners of ruined buildings just haphazardly and randomly scattered around without deference to the actual layout of where buildings would stand - a couple of them look like they have parks growing right through where the continuation of their walls should be, etc. What a travesty! (In all seriousness though, terrain of that level of density might be good in terms of neutering first turn advantage and alpha strike but you're basically screwed if you wanted to show up to the game with a Baneblade (or I assume a Knight) - there are basically entire sections of the table that larger models would have limited or no means of accessing because of how tightly spaced everything is preventing you from actually physically placing models there).


There is spacing for larger models, but yes, they're limited in their maneuverability. Seems pretty deliberate imo.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/26 16:39:48


Post by: Crablezworth


chaos0xomega wrote:
That WTC terrain is an awful real world conception of a battle, did the terrain organizer never hear of urban planning? Corners of ruined buildings just haphazardly and randomly scattered around without deference to the actual layout of where buildings would stand - a couple of them look like they have parks growing right through where the continuation of their walls should be, etc. What a travesty! (In all seriousness though, terrain of that level of density might be good in terms of neutering first turn advantage and alpha strike but you're basically screwed if you wanted to show up to the game with a Baneblade (or I assume a Knight) - there are basically entire sections of the table that larger models would have limited or no means of accessing because of how tightly spaced everything is preventing you from actually physically placing models there).


We're mostly in agreement, it looks awful, but we can all sorta see why they do it and what broad effect it has on the game regardless of faction. That's sorta where we're coming from on the 30k front. I feel like we'd agree they could take mosf that terrain, arrange it in a way that at least looks plausible, likely with longer fire lanes cuz roads be like that and you could play 30k and likely limit first turn ability to shoot the opponent of the board whether alpha strike or just a good old typhon.

When we did 30k tournaments, we always just put a big lost block in the dead center and a ruin in every corner and then a smatter of low cover. We had to leave enough room for stuff like knights/baneblade sized super heavies ect. So obviously couldn't do something as dense as wtc. But anyway, all of this is sorta not a consideration in 2.0, terrain is "difficult terrain" for the most part and that's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
That WTC terrain is an awful real world conception of a battle, did the terrain organizer never hear of urban planning? Corners of ruined buildings just haphazardly and randomly scattered around without deference to the actual layout of where buildings would stand - a couple of them look like they have parks growing right through where the continuation of their walls should be, etc. What a travesty! (In all seriousness though, terrain of that level of density might be good in terms of neutering first turn advantage and alpha strike but you're basically screwed if you wanted to show up to the game with a Baneblade (or I assume a Knight) - there are basically entire sections of the table that larger models would have limited or no means of accessing because of how tightly spaced everything is preventing you from actually physically placing models there).


There is spacing for larger models, but yes, they're limited in their maneuverability. Seems pretty deliberate imo.


Even the introduction of "planet L" terrain meta sorta was birthed by knights from my understanding. I do remember one tournament that had nice boards a prior year only to have the same nice boards the next with giant L's added to them in haste.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/26 18:59:28


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


I feel like this problem is emphasized by smaller tables.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/26 19:15:15


Post by: chaos0xomega


Yeah smaller tables are a big pita IMO, will be happy whenever GW decides to revise its battleboard size to encourage a return to 6x4 tables


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/26 21:27:54


Post by: Kanluwen


chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah smaller tables are a big pita IMO, will be happy whenever GW decides to revise its battleboard size to encourage a return to 6x4 tables

Nothing's stopping you from using a 6x4 is there?

I genuinely do not understand why players adhere so heavily to the "minimum" for things.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/27 01:42:31


Post by: Crablezworth


Local event here last weekend, the tables all looked liked that... but to the point about smaller gaming table, more room for cards I guess. I can understand not even bothering to require painting anymore if terrain doesn't even matter. I just don't see the hunger for HH 2.0 if this is the state of 9th. Give it a few years they won't even have ruins or models and it will just be a card game.


I get wanting to standardize boards. 30k isn't exactly even as detailed seemingly as 9th when it comes to terrain rules. This is where 40k 9th edition is at with terrain, granted this isn't every event but this is just an example of a big local tournament. Horus heresy events, not all mind you but past one I've seen the terrain is much less standardized like the wtc/competitive stuff. This might not be an issue for HH 2.0 but I really wouldn't be stoked to play 2.0 on boards like that. Especially to the point about them being smaller than 6x4 just to get more space for sidebars.


https://www.facebook.com/CanHammer




This was a 40k tournment we ran about a decade ago (2012). Much smaller event obviously, we only had like 10 tables, but it was all one long setup with a tiny sidebar and we made it work.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459136.page



The problem with 2.0 not really having terrain rules and calling ruins simply difficult terrain is you'll see stuff like this



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/27 02:14:18


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


Looks to be an alpha legion tank, they’re a tricky bunch. Wouldn’t put it past them to know rhino parkour.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/27 02:42:11


Post by: Crablezworth


 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Looks to be an alpha legion tank, they’re a tricky bunch. Wouldn’t put it past them to know rhino parkour.


It was alpharius's fault



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/27 08:59:12


Post by: kirotheavenger


40k definitely has a problem with "firepower accessibility", for lack of a good term.

Smaller tables mean there's less space for units to move around one another, less space for units to avoid one another.

Longer weapon ranges (small arms are commonly 30"+ now) mean they can reach further than ever before.

There's much more mobility than before. Your standard unit can move full distance and shoot almost unmolested.
Even heavy weapons can move and fire with almost no penalty.
Assault weapons can advance and fire with minimal penalty.
Many units have rules to advance and fire with any weapon with no penalty!
A lot of terrain has rules such that infantry can just phase through as if it wasn't there.

All this combines to mean it's fairly easy to get your firepower on whereever it wants to be. You really do need lots of solid L shaped buildings to have any hope of hiding.
This is part of what leads to the insane lethality of 40k, it's almost never I'm in a position to choose either manoeuvring where I want or shooting what I want, often I can do both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think IgoUgo works very poorly for large scale games that 30k tends towards - there's just far too much downtime where I'm sat down doing nothing but getting kicked in the dick.
Then it's my time to kick my opponent in the dick for 45 minutes.

IgoUgo also leads to the issues above - Alternating Activation games often limit was an individual unit can do more, because there's more interaction between units you don't need units to be able to yeet themselves across the map.



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/27 10:51:34


Post by: Crablezworth


 kirotheavenger wrote:
40k definitely has a problem with "firepower accessibility", for lack of a good term.

Smaller tables mean there's less space for units to move around one another, less space for units to avoid one another.

Longer weapon ranges (small arms are commonly 30"+ now) mean they can reach further than ever before.

There's much more mobility than before. Your standard unit can move full distance and shoot almost unmolested.
Even heavy weapons can move and fire with almost no penalty.
Assault weapons can advance and fire with minimal penalty.
Many units have rules to advance and fire with any weapon with no penalty!
A lot of terrain has rules such that infantry can just phase through as if it wasn't there.

All this combines to mean it's fairly easy to get your firepower on whereever it wants to be. You really do need lots of solid L shaped buildings to have any hope of hiding.
This is part of what leads to the insane lethality of 40k, it's almost never I'm in a position to choose either manoeuvring where I want or shooting what I want, often I can do both.


5-7 felt right, it felt like a combined arms ww2 game with space aliens and monsters and sci fi stuff, but the prevailing logics were very world war 2 ish imo. Like vehicles, facings, armour getting weaker the more you flank, small arms being useless against most vehicles because, well, that's how most small arms are against a tank. This logic existed across factions, an eldar tank might be thousands of years more advanced than an imperial one but the prevailing logic was still roughly the same "maybe if we shoot it in the rear it will be easier to make it go boom". The sci fi element was the fact that it was a skimmer. Vehicles whole purpose compared to infantry in game was they, unlike footsloggers could move and fire weapons and heavy weapons. Walkers, again, were all about slow prodigious advance in squadrons while being able to fire their heavy weapons but also being able in some cases to mix it in up in close combat. Most factions had walkers because they could also go places/fit place easier that larger tanks and other vehicles might get immobilized in or simply unable to traverse. All the context to all the unit types basically went away and we got a system that pretends to be deep but it's actually designed far more to benefit the silo'd workforce and schizophrenic release schedule at gw than to be a superior experience to prior editions or even enjoyable to people who remember how far the game has fallen. It feels like a card games with models. I still remember in 8th seeing a flyer assault a bunker and just feeling like "how is anyone ok with is?". Quit 40k not long after for 30k because it was the only one left with that sorta game engine of prior 40k editions so to speak.

This was what our tables at our event looked like a decade ago, I guess that'd be 5th ed. We literally previewed all 10 tables like a week prior to the event and set them up identically to he photos. We'd have massive big los blockers to help speed up play, but still have a few more open boards where it was more hills/trees and fewer los blockers. Burt there was insane verticality and certainly not phasing through walls for infantry. I guess if there's less of a stomach for this in 9th around here, I doubt the HH events will look any better, hopefully they'll still be on 6x4's.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/457149.page





 kirotheavenger wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think IgoUgo works very poorly for large scale games that 30k tends towards - there's just far too much downtime where I'm sat down doing nothing but getting kicked in the dick.
Then it's my time to kick my opponent in the dick for 45 minutes.

IgoUgo also leads to the issues above - Alternating Activation games often limit was an individual unit can do more, because there's more interaction between units you don't need units to be able to yeet themselves across the map.



In fairness even mega battles have their limits. I'd much rather play a 2v2 on an 8x4 at like 4000-5000pts per side than spend all weekend playing 4 turns. 30k seems to work ok for something like that provided there's proper planning and communications and enough time set aside.

Alternating activation just seems to work better in very contained smaller scale games and even then it quickly tips over, that's why AT doesn't scale very well past about 2500, and even then you can end up with a lot of activation disparity, which just leads to the one with most activations having a tail end to every phase where all there activations are sequential anyway. This occurs sorta naturally even with equal activations as one side sorta gets more engine kills, but the game can also start with that huge disparity in activations, and it makes itself felt considering you can often very much focus on a singular target as if it was turn based activation, you basically own the tail end of every phase. We played a few games with multiple units of titan hunter infantry, in some cases it was adding 4 additional activations per combat phase, not to mention having to alternate placing/removing them in the stratagy phase.

Turn based isn't perfect, but some players also expect every single element of their army to be moving shooting and assaulting every turn. Honestly, with good terrain coverage and fairly realistically modelled with fire lanes and big los blockers and ruins ect not to mention a scenario with a fairly limited amount of vp's in play, you can afford to have some units just sit backfield all game holding their sector. Also with healthy amounts of deep strike and outflanking units those backfield unit's patience may ultimately be rewarded if a unit outflanks near them out of nowhere or some termies teleport in front of them. 30k 1.0 for all its faults can work really really well with a very straight forward mission/scenario and a well conceived game board. The problem is a lot of these central things, the third army so its called, often isn't given enough consideration.

HH 2.0 shows signs of what 9th does, pretend to have rules but then have other rules to cancel them out. It's like the illusion of limits or control. Like with 9th where for all the supposed detail the limits seem a bit lack, unit types that were well defined in editions past sorta blend together in 9th. Everything starts to feel like a collection of stats their either fly's or doesn't fly. Now granted HH 2.0 isn't quite that bad, you start to see indications of where things are going. The vehicles are a good example, they show you all these charts and diagrams with sponsons and go into detail on how everything is mounted and its field of fire but for all the appearance of how things used to work, when you actually read it, basically everything split fires and vehicles squadrons are going to be a dumpster fire. It's not all the way to where 40k is at but it's not far off.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/27 13:41:57


Post by: ProfSrlojohn


 Crablezworth wrote:


HH 2.0 shows signs of what 9th does, pretend to have rules but then have other rules to cancel them out. It's like the illusion of limits or control. Like with 9th where for all the supposed detail the limits seem a bit lack, unit types that were well defined in editions past sorta blend together in 9th. Everything starts to feel like a collection of stats their either fly's or doesn't fly. Now granted HH 2.0 isn't quite that bad, you start to see indications of where things are going. The vehicles are a good example, they show you all these charts and diagrams with sponsons and go into detail on how everything is mounted and its field of fire but for all the appearance of how things used to work, when you actually read it, basically everything split fires and vehicles squadrons are going to be a dumpster fire. It's not all the way to where 40k is at but it's not far off.


It's almost a mishearing or corruption of the TCG mentality. When Richard Garfield was making his game, his thought process was to make the rules for the game, then every (or nearly every) card has some way to break or work around the rules. 9th is taking this philosophy to the extreme to the point where the rules might as well not exist, especially with things like stratagems. What's the quote? "When everyone's super, no one will be."


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/27 18:51:59


Post by: Crablezworth


 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:


HH 2.0 shows signs of what 9th does, pretend to have rules but then have other rules to cancel them out. It's like the illusion of limits or control. Like with 9th where for all the supposed detail the limits seem a bit lack, unit types that were well defined in editions past sorta blend together in 9th. Everything starts to feel like a collection of stats their either fly's or doesn't fly. Now granted HH 2.0 isn't quite that bad, you start to see indications of where things are going. The vehicles are a good example, they show you all these charts and diagrams with sponsons and go into detail on how everything is mounted and its field of fire but for all the appearance of how things used to work, when you actually read it, basically everything split fires and vehicles squadrons are going to be a dumpster fire. It's not all the way to where 40k is at but it's not far off.


It's almost a mishearing or corruption of the TCG mentality. When Richard Garfield was making his game, his thought process was to make the rules for the game, then every (or nearly every) card has some way to break or work around the rules. 9th is taking this philosophy to the extreme to the point where the rules might as well not exist, especially with things like stratagems. What's the quote? "When everyone's super, no one will be."


Combat seems to have hard limits, even now opening fire on tank or apc with a rifle can't be expected to do much, and worse, likely just calls attention to oneself. Anti-armour weaponry can be man portable, but the quality, efficacy, payload are all over the place, not to mention weight or setup time. That would seem to be why heavy weapons traditionally wouldn't allow for moving and shooting. Snapfiring wasn't the end of the world, be we see the creep from snap firing to you're never told hard no to anything and this is also part of the decision paralysis. If all options always remain possible just diminished its never going to be easy to decide what to do or worse, there will always be obvious choices so its the illusion of depth most of the time. It's nice when mechanics have limits because your decision can be whittled down over the course of a turn. "Oh that target is out of range, guess I'll have to shoot this one" is something you don't see much when most weapons can reach half the board.

Hard limits in 30k help, there may be fewer decisions in the shooting phase if one has gone and moved a lot of stuff that can't move and shoot effectively, you've made your decision so to speak by moving instead of holding still for those units. Maybe some are vehicles so it doesn't matter. THe problem of 9thing it is you get the every last drop problem, if every last lasgun has at least a chance of doing something, you can get a lot of really boring gradient work and everything starts to feel like a big health bar with no real context. This is actually not a great model for how people and machines breakdown or take damage. It also means stuff is just as killy when it's 1 of 10 wounds is left as when it was full health, unlike vehicles in current 30k that for the most part can be suppressed, have their weapons rendered inoperable and even immobilized. 30k also went the smarter way with limits or downsides, like if one was really concerned or had a bad time with being immobilized many vehicles had upgrades/wargear that could help mitigate or fix that. This is still better design than just making everything move an integer but having few real limitations.

30k at least has all the unit types so its not difficult to simply say what can and can't "climb" or end its movement on upper floors even if those rules for terrain themselves are sadly absent. The more unit types get amalgamated modified or take a hit in some way the more it moves towards 9th.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/27 20:39:43


Post by: Backspacehacker


 kirotheavenger wrote:
You touched on one of my issues with reactions - their relation to the real world.

I really dislike any weird 'meta' rules that don't make sense in the real world.

"sorry guys, you can't duck because someone's already used the ducking quota for this moment" just make no sense. Those sorts of rules really rip you out of the battle and remind you it's just a game with silly game-isms.


Go to ground is still in the game isnt it?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/27 20:39:44


Post by: Togusa


chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah smaller tables are a big pita IMO, will be happy whenever GW decides to revise its battleboard size to encourage a return to 6x4 tables


No one I know uses the new suggested sizes for tables. 40K or AoS we all around my stomping grounds still use 6X4.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/28 01:18:47


Post by: Crablezworth


 Backspacehacker wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
You touched on one of my issues with reactions - their relation to the real world.

I really dislike any weird 'meta' rules that don't make sense in the real world.

"sorry guys, you can't duck because someone's already used the ducking quota for this moment" just make no sense. Those sorts of rules really rip you out of the battle and remind you it's just a game with silly game-isms.


Go to ground is still in the game isnt it?


It would seem go to ground/jink are one thing now and it's a reaction called evade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Togusa wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah smaller tables are a big pita IMO, will be happy whenever GW decides to revise its battleboard size to encourage a return to 6x4 tables


No one I know uses the new suggested sizes for tables. 40K or AoS we all around my stomping grounds still use 6X4.


Well given the confirmed contents of the 2.0 starter, 6x4 really does seem like the way to go.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/28 10:36:36


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Backspacehacker wrote:

Go to ground is still in the game isnt it?

Nope.
As mentioned it's approximately been replaced by a reaction called "evade" - which effectively grants the unit Shrouded (now a 5+++ save similar to Feel No Pain).

Being pinned doesn't result in a cover bonus either, it's just the limited action thing.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/28 19:57:25


Post by: Backspacehacker


 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:

Go to ground is still in the game isnt it?

Nope.
As mentioned it's approximately been replaced by a reaction called "evade" - which effectively grants the unit Shrouded (now a 5+++ save similar to Feel No Pain).

Being pinned doesn't result in a cover bonus either, it's just the limited action thing.


Hmm idk how i feel about removal of go to ground, TBH might house rule Go to Ground Back into the game and make it so that if you go to ground you cant take reactions until your next shooting phase.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/29 01:08:31


Post by: Crablezworth


 Backspacehacker wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:

Go to ground is still in the game isnt it?

Nope.
As mentioned it's approximately been replaced by a reaction called "evade" - which effectively grants the unit Shrouded (now a 5+++ save similar to Feel No Pain).

Being pinned doesn't result in a cover bonus either, it's just the limited action thing.


Hmm idk how i feel about removal of go to ground, TBH might house rule Go to Ground Back into the game and make it so that if you go to ground you cant take reactions until your next shooting phase.


Why not just play 1.0? It seems much better tbh.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/04/29 20:38:30


Post by: Backspacehacker


 Crablezworth wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:

Go to ground is still in the game isnt it?

Nope.
As mentioned it's approximately been replaced by a reaction called "evade" - which effectively grants the unit Shrouded (now a 5+++ save similar to Feel No Pain).

Being pinned doesn't result in a cover bonus either, it's just the limited action thing.


Hmm idk how i feel about removal of go to ground, TBH might house rule Go to Ground Back into the game and make it so that if you go to ground you cant take reactions until your next shooting phase.


Why not just play 1.0? It seems much better tbh.


Because the changes in 2.0 seem more interesting and balanced across the board.
-Changes to challenges
-Pysker changes
-MEQ and TEQ being the new hotness
-Parking lots are not as appealing
-Dread changes make them good
-AP rebalance and cut back on AP2 and AP 3 templates

The only thing so far im skeptical on or interested to see how they are balanced are reactions, which so far is not that big of an issue, if all those positives come at the cost of no more go to ground? Eh, thats not that big of as loss.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/22 04:39:36


Post by: Crablezworth


Great new video on reactions from the outer circle, our video gets some love from down under.




Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/22 13:21:04


Post by: Strg Alt


chaos0xomega wrote:
That WTC terrain is an awful real world conception of a battle, did the terrain organizer never hear of urban planning? Corners of ruined buildings just haphazardly and randomly scattered around without deference to the actual layout of where buildings would stand - a couple of them look like they have parks growing right through where the continuation of their walls should be, etc. What a travesty! (In all seriousness though, terrain of that level of density might be good in terms of neutering first turn advantage and alpha strike but you're basically screwed if you wanted to show up to the game with a Baneblade (or I assume a Knight) - there are basically entire sections of the table that larger models would have limited or no means of accessing because of how tightly spaced everything is preventing you from actually physically placing models there).


This happens when you don´t take efforts into building roads too for your city. I wouldn´t say it´s intentional malice on part of the tournament people just a lack of awareness.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/22 17:10:44


Post by: Crablezworth


 Strg Alt wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
That WTC terrain is an awful real world conception of a battle, did the terrain organizer never hear of urban planning? Corners of ruined buildings just haphazardly and randomly scattered around without deference to the actual layout of where buildings would stand - a couple of them look like they have parks growing right through where the continuation of their walls should be, etc. What a travesty! (In all seriousness though, terrain of that level of density might be good in terms of neutering first turn advantage and alpha strike but you're basically screwed if you wanted to show up to the game with a Baneblade (or I assume a Knight) - there are basically entire sections of the table that larger models would have limited or no means of accessing because of how tightly spaced everything is preventing you from actually physically placing models there).


This happens when you don´t take efforts into building roads too for your city. I wouldn´t say it´s intentional malice on part of the tournament people just a lack of awareness.


It's also sorta sad to have to build tables to accommodate the silliest models like super heavies and knights. We had to to accommodate for them in 30k and it sorta made the tables worse overall imo.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/22 20:39:06


Post by: Durandal


 Crablezworth wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
That WTC terrain is an awful real world conception of a battle, did the terrain organizer never hear of urban planning? Corners of ruined buildings just haphazardly and randomly scattered around without deference to the actual layout of where buildings would stand - a couple of them look like they have parks growing right through where the continuation of their walls should be, etc. What a travesty! (In all seriousness though, terrain of that level of density might be good in terms of neutering first turn advantage and alpha strike but you're basically screwed if you wanted to show up to the game with a Baneblade (or I assume a Knight) - there are basically entire sections of the table that larger models would have limited or no means of accessing because of how tightly spaced everything is preventing you from actually physically placing models there).


This happens when you don´t take efforts into building roads too for your city. I wouldn´t say it´s intentional malice on part of the tournament people just a lack of awareness.


It's also sorta sad to have to build tables to accommodate the silliest models like super heavies and knights. We had to to accommodate for them in 30k and it sorta made the tables worse overall imo.


Having lost some games in a tourny due to terrain constraining larger models, including one where I couldn't deploy all my tanks because the board was filled with a gigantic train yard, I feel that there needs to be a good compromise between terrain making the battles interesting and getting in the way.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/23 05:39:52


Post by: Crablezworth


Durandal wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
That WTC terrain is an awful real world conception of a battle, did the terrain organizer never hear of urban planning? Corners of ruined buildings just haphazardly and randomly scattered around without deference to the actual layout of where buildings would stand - a couple of them look like they have parks growing right through where the continuation of their walls should be, etc. What a travesty! (In all seriousness though, terrain of that level of density might be good in terms of neutering first turn advantage and alpha strike but you're basically screwed if you wanted to show up to the game with a Baneblade (or I assume a Knight) - there are basically entire sections of the table that larger models would have limited or no means of accessing because of how tightly spaced everything is preventing you from actually physically placing models there).


This happens when you don´t take efforts into building roads too for your city. I wouldn´t say it´s intentional malice on part of the tournament people just a lack of awareness.


It's also sorta sad to have to build tables to accommodate the silliest models like super heavies and knights. We had to to accommodate for them in 30k and it sorta made the tables worse overall imo.


Having lost some games in a tourny due to terrain constraining larger models, including one where I couldn't deploy all my tanks because the board was filled with a gigantic train yard, I feel that there needs to be a good compromise between terrain making the battles interesting and getting in the way.


Agreed, but I also think something as expansive as HH in terms of army buildings also needs containing for an event, like model limits for time and also limiting some of the larger models like super heavies/knights. I think the reality too is no battlefield is going to satisfy the person with 15 tanks in their list other than an open field, but I think that's what I would stress in terms of creating a meta with some outright limits and other stuff more incentivized by terrain placement/density/type. I honestly feel the game works best with combined arms. I don't have a lot of sympathy for armies that are all one unit type that expect to function in every scenario on every board.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/24 18:45:28


Post by: Strg Alt


 Crablezworth wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
That WTC terrain is an awful real world conception of a battle, did the terrain organizer never hear of urban planning? Corners of ruined buildings just haphazardly and randomly scattered around without deference to the actual layout of where buildings would stand - a couple of them look like they have parks growing right through where the continuation of their walls should be, etc. What a travesty! (In all seriousness though, terrain of that level of density might be good in terms of neutering first turn advantage and alpha strike but you're basically screwed if you wanted to show up to the game with a Baneblade (or I assume a Knight) - there are basically entire sections of the table that larger models would have limited or no means of accessing because of how tightly spaced everything is preventing you from actually physically placing models there).


This happens when you don´t take efforts into building roads too for your city. I wouldn´t say it´s intentional malice on part of the tournament people just a lack of awareness.


It's also sorta sad to have to build tables to accommodate the silliest models like super heavies and knights. We had to to accommodate for them in 30k and it sorta made the tables worse overall imo.


Sensible folk knew from the getgo that IKs and super heavies would ruin any game other than Epic. Either you reserve such models for Epic or create a separate game for them like Pacific Rim.
Apart from that tournament terrain setup has it´s flaws The stars in 30K/40K are still infantry squads but you almost never see intact multi-story buildings where those units get to shine.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/24 23:36:25


Post by: BrianDavion


 Strg Alt wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
That WTC terrain is an awful real world conception of a battle, did the terrain organizer never hear of urban planning? Corners of ruined buildings just haphazardly and randomly scattered around without deference to the actual layout of where buildings would stand - a couple of them look like they have parks growing right through where the continuation of their walls should be, etc. What a travesty! (In all seriousness though, terrain of that level of density might be good in terms of neutering first turn advantage and alpha strike but you're basically screwed if you wanted to show up to the game with a Baneblade (or I assume a Knight) - there are basically entire sections of the table that larger models would have limited or no means of accessing because of how tightly spaced everything is preventing you from actually physically placing models there).


This happens when you don´t take efforts into building roads too for your city. I wouldn´t say it´s intentional malice on part of the tournament people just a lack of awareness.


It's also sorta sad to have to build tables to accommodate the silliest models like super heavies and knights. We had to to accommodate for them in 30k and it sorta made the tables worse overall imo.


Sensible folk knew from the getgo that IKs and super heavies would ruin any game other than Epic. Either you reserve such models for Epic or create a separate game for them like Pacific Rim.
Apart from that tournament terrain setup has it´s flaws The stars in 30K/40K are still infantry squads but you almost never see intact multi-story buildings where those units get to shine.


that is honestly the biggest problem with 40k in a nutshell.. we need more multi level terrain for infantry. generally in real life infantry doesn't run around in the open when tanks are about, for a reason


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/25 01:59:13


Post by: Tannhauser42


Yeah, but you still need to be able to physically move those 20-man tactical squads in and around the terrain. Ultimately, terrain still has to be functional.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/25 07:37:59


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Was mildly Heresy curious but that whole reaction thing that grumpy Mr Makka's video covered has put me right off, as it seems like a hamfisted bodge of UGOIGO and AA, which may work in low count skirmish games but not so much with big lumps of Marines and dakkatanks

Oh well one day my BFG will come...(with new rules hopefully)


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/25 11:34:12


Post by: Gert


Have you considered not listening to TOC and maybe looking at reviews from people who didn't spend 3 mins on the topic and 17 on random whinging? Like literally anyone else.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/25 12:35:57


Post by: Bobug


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Was mildly Heresy curious but that whole reaction thing that grumpy Mr Makka's video covered has put me right off, as it seems like a hamfisted bodge of UGOIGO and AA, which may work in low count skirmish games but not so much with big lumps of Marines and dakkatanks

Oh well one day my BFG will come...(with new rules hopefully)


The man's a fool. I would completely ignore him. I've played a few games of 2.0 and it's really good. He almost certainly hasn't played and is basically just making rage videos for a reaction and views or because he actually has some kind of problem. Ignore, get into heresy, and enjoy yourself!


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/25 13:09:17


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Thing is the lads in the OP are largely saying the same thing, admittedly in a less bait and salt style persona, and this is just launch issues, I suspect the power creep as each Legion gets their book (and mandatory FAQ making the book worthless in a month or so) will be quite the thing, I'll see how things are going in a year but currently its a hard pass


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/25 13:20:29


Post by: Gert


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Thing is the lads in the OP are largely saying the same thing, admittedly in a less bait and salt style persona, and this is just launch issues,

The OP doesn't have any better idea than TOC or you as to what the new game is going to be like as they also don't have the full rulebook. So maybe base your opinions on a variety of sources rather than a whinging self-entitled brat (TOC) and someone who doesn't have the rules.

I suspect the power creep as each Legion gets their book (and mandatory FAQ making the book worthless in a month or so) will be quite the thing, I'll see how things are going in a year but currently its a hard pass

Mind sharing how you know each Legion is getting its own book?
This isn't like 8th Ed Indexes where there are no army rules, relics, etc., these upcoming books are the full package for the Loyalist and Traitor Legions.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/25 15:31:24


Post by: Arcanis161


I've got a "wait-and-see" attitude towards the whole Reaction thing and how the legions will be balanced. If my gaming group and I like the reactions and don't feel that either it or the different Legion rules are causing enough imbalance to make narrative play less fun, then we'll stick to the current rules. If not, then we'll simply adjust the rules as we feel needed.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/25 16:31:56


Post by: Crablezworth


 Gert wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Thing is the lads in the OP are largely saying the same thing, admittedly in a less bait and salt style persona, and this is just launch issues,

The OP doesn't have any better idea than TOC or you as to what the new game is going to be like as they also don't have the full rulebook. So maybe base your opinions on a variety of sources rather than a whinging self-entitled brat (TOC) and someone who doesn't have the rules.


Yeah, what would we know, we're not very analytical people. And I mean, what with you being psychic and all, we don't stand a chance fren.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arcanis161 wrote:
I've got a "wait-and-see" attitude towards the whole Reaction thing and how the legions will be balanced. If my gaming group and I like the reactions and don't feel that either it or the different Legion rules are causing enough imbalance to make narrative play less fun, then we'll stick to the current rules. If not, then we'll simply adjust the rules as we feel needed.


You monster, perhaps consider your moral failings as a human, GW will hear of this


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Thing is the lads in the OP are largely saying the same thing, admittedly in a less bait and salt style persona, and this is just launch issues, I suspect the power creep as each Legion gets their book (and mandatory FAQ making the book worthless in a month or so) will be quite the thing, I'll see how things are going in a year but currently its a hard pass


We basically came to similar conclusions a few weeks before toc made his video, either it's an international conspiracy to sink GW and push forward general negativity, or maybe we have a point. Few mention the whole sabres being faster than jevellins thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Have you considered not listening to TOC and maybe looking at reviews from people who didn't spend 3 mins on the topic and 17 on random whinging? Like literally anyone else.


We spent 52 minutes and you still think we have some agenda while also fabricating the leaks we have. We also made it clear that our video is not where to go to be informed, it's our own analysis and opinion, pretty clearly. We're not exactly holding the leaks up to the camera.



And if anyone can read a video title, toc made a video about warlord traits in 2.0 and he seems to like them, I guess that means they're probably terrible and you shouldn't watch the video. I'm sorry the guy pointed out the toxic positivity problem in the hobby but it's there for all to see.




Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/25 16:47:06


Post by: Gert


 Crablezworth wrote:
Yeah, what would we know, we're not very analytical people. And I mean, what with you being psychic and all, we don't stand a chance fren.

I mean do you have the rulebook? No? So my point to that poster was to maybe not only base their opinion on people who haven't seen the full ruleset.

We spent 52 minutes and you still think we have some agenda while also fabricating the leaks we have. We also made it clear that our video is not where to go to be informed, it's our own analysis and opinion, pretty clearly. We're not exactly holding the leaks up to the camera.

Never said you had an agenda chief.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/25 20:39:02


Post by: BrianDavion


Gotta say Crablesworth, you sure push this guys videos so I'm gonna ask..

Are those your videos?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/25 21:34:11


Post by: Crablezworth


BrianDavion wrote:
Gotta say Crablesworth, you sure push this guys videos so I'm gonna ask..

Are those your videos?


Our video is in the OP. (Not Australian last I checked )

Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/CoverSlaves/videos






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
Yeah, what would we know, we're not very analytical people. And I mean, what with you being psychic and all, we don't stand a chance fren.

I mean do you have the rulebook? No? So my point to that poster was to maybe not only base their opinion on people who haven't seen the full ruleset.

We spent 52 minutes and you still think we have some agenda while also fabricating the leaks we have. We also made it clear that our video is not where to go to be informed, it's our own analysis and opinion, pretty clearly. We're not exactly holding the leaks up to the camera.

Never said you had an agenda chief.


Was the latest toc videos positivity levels up to standards?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/25 23:07:43


Post by: Gert


I don't know because I don't watch TOC as I stay away from clickbait YouTubers.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/27 10:03:06


Post by: Strg Alt


 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Yeah, but you still need to be able to physically move those 20-man tactical squads in and around the terrain. Ultimately, terrain still has to be functional.


Three solutions:

1) Build an intact building with a detachable roof and detachable floors. This might seem to be fiddly but works well in regard to SM armies due to low model count. I played this way a lot during 3rd when one of my buddies had built a fantastic city terrain collection which came along with streets.

2) Build an intact building with non detachable parts. This means you can only place models on the flat roof. Minis on lower levels may be represented by hugging the walls on the ground floor with the addition of a die representing the corresponding level.

3) Build a L-shaped ruin with LARGE floors. Take a look at Cityfight 3rd how it is supposed to be done. This provides best access to all levels for easy play. However you usually can´t pull off cinematic stuff like landing on the roof (LZ is generally too small) with your jump packs and blowing up tanks on street level with equipped special weapons.


In all cases you need abstract terrain rules which grant troops cover and LOS (3rd allowed LOS of six inches through any kind of terrain with the exception of solid stuff like hills) wherever they are in the building. So it doesn´t matter if they face a wall with a few windows or the open area of a demolished building.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/30 08:32:25


Post by: tneva82


Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/30 13:15:31


Post by: Crablezworth


tneva82 wrote:
Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


I tend to agree, the taller ruins/buildings can look cool but there's a definite limit to how many floors are too many.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/30 15:44:26


Post by: Strg Alt


 Crablezworth wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


I tend to agree, the taller ruins/buildings can look cool but there's a definite limit to how many floors are too many.


No one demanded skyscrapers. Out of my experience I would suggest four levels for the TALLEST buildings on the board:

0: Ground Level
1: Floor 1
2: Floor 2
3: Roof

Moving though difficult terrain worked like this in 3rd: Roll 2D6 in your move phase and the unit in question may move BOTH horizontally and vertically according to the highest score of a single dice. In order to climb/descend a single level, a unit needs at least a score of 3 rolled on a dice. This means if you rolled a six you could even climb up/down up to two floors in a single move. Next comes the assault phase in which you can move again and cover ground. Instead of shooting a unit can opt to run. And remember that in HH 2.0 your run score is fixed as it is equal to your initiative value which will be in most cases four (SM). So you will automatically be able to at least ascend/descend one level when sprinting.

All this considered doesn´t imply multi-level buildings to be game breaking obstacles. The players would need to adapt to a new combat environment. Suddenly USRs such as "Move through cover", "Infiltrate", "Deepstrike" and "Jetpack" become more important than sheer killing power. In a nutshell: All USRs which give a boost to movement are very handy. Special mentions go to jetpack troops which can reach rooftops in a single move. Tanks with templates which ignore cover also become more attractive. And blobs of Tactical marines are safe in buildings from rampaging bikes and dreadnoughts making internet cookie-cutter lists less effective which are traditionally played on flat boards with hardly any relevant floor levels.

Another thing to be considered is that the aforementioned Tactical blobs have a smaller footprint on the board due to the fact that they can be placed vertically on multiple levels. This means you have less problems with space on a smaller table. One important note though: Plan your city with streets in mind as you may want to leave enough space for your transport vehicles to unload marines. How wide should a street be? When two rhinos can drive comfortably on it next to each other then it ought to be enough.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/30 16:54:53


Post by: Da Boss


I've thought about allowing vertical movement to be faster if there's a ladder or other obvious mode of ascent, for gameplay reasons. I dunno, I think it's a shame not to use vertical terrain but in practice you'll often end up ignoring it because of the cost in movement, unless you put objectives up there.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/30 17:53:48


Post by: Strg Alt


 Da Boss wrote:
I've thought about allowing vertical movement to be faster if there's a ladder or other obvious mode of ascent, for gameplay reasons. I dunno, I think it's a shame not to use vertical terrain but in practice you'll often end up ignoring it because of the cost in movement, unless you put objectives up there.


A Cityfight is characterized by having multiple buildings in your deployment zone as well as in no-man´s land. So it is a no-brainer to put your troops with heavy weapons on a roof during the deployment phase of the 1st turn. And with Infiltrate you can directly deploy troops before the game in buildings which are located in no-man´s land.

Ladders:
That´s fiddly stuff better reserved for skirmish games like Necromunda. If you insist on these things you better model battered furniture all across the ruins as well. Nah, better keep it abstract with smooth floors allowing a healthy amount of models to be placed without suffering from Wobbly Model Syndrome.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/30 18:29:26


Post by: Crablezworth


 Da Boss wrote:
I've thought about allowing vertical movement to be faster if there's a ladder or other obvious mode of ascent, for gameplay reasons. I dunno, I think it's a shame not to use vertical terrain but in practice you'll often end up ignoring it because of the cost in movement, unless you put objectives up there.


We'd used a house rule in the past where if half a unit or more could make base contact with a ruin floors looking top down, they could instead of running in the shooting phase all basically climb one level up but they'd have to remain pretty tightly packed like they all just helped one another climb up. The balance was basically it forced infantry units to clump up when they might not ideally like to to give them the movement bump. It worked ok.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/31 21:06:19


Post by: godardc


 Crablezworth wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


I tend to agree, the taller ruins/buildings can look cool but there's a definite limit to how many floors are too many.

Ok I'm jumping into a conversation but...why not using a... house rules ? Like a lift or whatever to double the speed vertically for example
Would avoid spending 3 turne to get into the top of the building

I'm not the first to say it but it's definitely an common idea, well, I don't have very high buildings but could use this idea this summer !


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/31 21:09:50


Post by: Crablezworth


 godardc wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


I tend to agree, the taller ruins/buildings can look cool but there's a definite limit to how many floors are too many.

Ok I'm jumping into a conversation but...why not using a... house rules ? Like a lift or whatever to double the speed vertically for example
Would avoid spending 3 turne to get into the top of the building

I'm not the first to say it but it's definitely an common idea, well, I don't have very high buildings but could use this idea this summer !


I agree lol suggested just that in the last post.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/31 21:28:57


Post by: Strg Alt


 godardc wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


I tend to agree, the taller ruins/buildings can look cool but there's a definite limit to how many floors are too many.

Ok I'm jumping into a conversation but...why not using a... house rules ? Like a lift or whatever to double the speed vertically for example
Would avoid spending 3 turne to get into the top of the building

I'm not the first to say it but it's definitely an common idea, well, I don't have very high buildings but could use this idea this summer !


Intact building might have still functioning elevators. Ruins on the other hand are less likely to have still reliable lifts. Then there will be a risk associated for troops using an elevator while all types of ordnance hits the structure thus running the risk of being stuck in said elevator due to damage.

Even when such notions as functioning lifts are left aside allowing troops to use an elevator to effortlessly move up towards the top devalues any troops with the aforementioned movement perks such as jetpacks. This reminds me of the good, old D&D times: Why bring a thief to the game when you have a wizard who can emulate ALL thief skills with wizardry.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/31 21:41:11


Post by: Crablezworth


 Strg Alt wrote:
 godardc wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Another issue with multi store building is...time. Specifically turns. 5-6 turns(what's the turn count in HH?). If it takes 3 turns to go from top to bottom...that unit is basically not affecting game besides shooting. No help going to objectives elsewhere.


I tend to agree, the taller ruins/buildings can look cool but there's a definite limit to how many floors are too many.

Ok I'm jumping into a conversation but...why not using a... house rules ? Like a lift or whatever to double the speed vertically for example
Would avoid spending 3 turne to get into the top of the building

I'm not the first to say it but it's definitely an common idea, well, I don't have very high buildings but could use this idea this summer !


Intact building might have still functioning elevators. Ruins on the other hand are less likely to have still reliable lifts. Then there will be a risk associated for troops using an elevator while all types of ordnance hits the structure thus running the risk of being stuck in said elevator due to damage.

Even when such notions as functioning lifts are left aside allowing troops to use an elevator to effortlessly move up towards the top devalues any troops with the aforementioned movement perks such as jetpacks. This reminds me of the good, old D&D times: Why bring a thief to the game when you have a wizard who can emulate ALL thief skills with wizardry.


it was only introduced because some buildings were not internally accessible, it was that or limit where objectives could be placed so we went with that. Jump troops and skimmers and jetbikes all still had a clear advantage. it just have infantry units a chance.



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/05/31 23:14:23


Post by: ArcaneHorror


I really wish GW would stop hamfisting the Word Bearers into the Legion with the better-than-average leadership traits. It's just boring and makes them not as good as other Legions.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/01 08:33:29


Post by: blood reaper


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I really wish GW would stop hamfisting the Word Bearers into the Legion with the better-than-average leadership traits. It's just boring and makes them not as good as other Legions.


"You know these incredibly brave, superhuman warriors who are really, really brave? Well here's a subfaction who is even braver."

Ironically, I think this is why Night Lords are great when depicted as the low morale faction among the Space Marines - because it's actually a meaningful difference.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/01 09:23:04


Post by: Strg Alt


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I really wish GW would stop hamfisting the Word Bearers into the Legion with the better-than-average leadership traits. It's just boring and makes them not as good as other Legions.


Paint scheme is more important than rules which may change from edition to edition.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/01 12:00:14


Post by: Gert


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I really wish GW would stop hamfisting the Word Bearers into the Legion with the better-than-average leadership traits. It's just boring and makes them not as good as other Legions.

I mean they also got a rule which means they don't draw combat, which is very good.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/01 13:31:03


Post by: chaos0xomega


 blood reaper wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I really wish GW would stop hamfisting the Word Bearers into the Legion with the better-than-average leadership traits. It's just boring and makes them not as good as other Legions.


"You know these incredibly brave, superhuman warriors who are really, really brave? Well here's a subfaction who is even braver."

Ironically, I think this is why Night Lords are great when depicted as the low morale faction among the Space Marines - because it's actually a meaningful difference.


You just summed up my problem with most of the Imperium factions fluff in general. "You know those extra special troops that are the pinnacle of humanity? Well these guys are even extra specialer". It finally hit me last week when I was reviewing the SM Legions fluff, I think in part thanks to WarCom articles. Basically every legions description has some sort of "angle" to it about how they are the extra special snowflake legion that the Emperor kept hidden or in reserve for mysterious reasons or assigned special tasks/honors, etc. under mysterious circumstances. Like, every single one of them has something in the fluff that either implies or directly states that they were special-er than the other legions - the problem with that is that they can't all be specialer than the others. Thats like a double-negative, if they are all equally specialer than they are all equally mundane - if they are all specialer than the other legions, than none of them are.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/01 15:03:22


Post by: godardc


"When everyone is super no one will be"
I believe the Iron Warrior are the only ones not special, and that's their special thing. It's really telling !


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/01 15:28:48


Post by: Crablezworth


 godardc wrote:
"When everyone is super no one will be"
I believe the Iron Warrior are the only ones not special, and that's their special thing. It's really telling !


I thought their thing was they did attrition best.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/01 16:51:06


Post by: BrianDavion


on the other hand the Legions that don't have these "special things" such as the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, are often dismissed as boring. I mean I prefer the boring legions because they tend to be the ones that have the most nuanced development, as the writers can't just lean into "WOLVES! THEY HAVE WOLVES! AND DO WOLF STUFF!"


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/01 16:55:36


Post by: Da Boss


Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/01 17:03:54


Post by: BrianDavion


I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/01 19:04:22


Post by: Crablezworth


What makes the game work well isn't the special cases but the fact that they're all pulling from the same core list/units. It wasn't the legion rules that made me want to play 30k, it was the fact 40k sucked at that point lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"


Ya, basically they defend, iron warriors attack. But there was cool fluff in the details on both side, iron warriors just throwing thousands of serfs and slaves to soak up bullets and probe for weaknesses, IF having crazy ass fortresses.

In game terms tho, attack defend stuff is tougher to balance that normal skirmishing.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/01 20:05:33


Post by: chaos0xomega


BrianDavion wrote:
on the other hand the Legions that don't have these "special things" such as the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, are often dismissed as boring. I mean I prefer the boring legions because they tend to be the ones that have the most nuanced development, as the writers can't just lean into "WOLVES! THEY HAVE WOLVES! AND DO WOLF STUFF!"


Nono, even the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are special-er than the rest. They both get their fair share of superlatives which in many cases sound suspiciously similar to the superlatives bestowed on other legions. Especially the ultramarines, whos fluff literally paints them as being first amongst specials, and the specialist of the special (except for the other guys who are special-er), who all the other special guys look up to and wish they could be as special as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.


Yep, basically this. The writers only seem to rarely make good use of the overlap (Iron Warriors v Imperial Fists, for example), other times it seems unintentional and the result of running out of ideas/forgetting the traits of other legions and trying to make the one legion seem specialer by misattributing qualities to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crablezworth wrote:
What makes the game work well isn't the special cases but the fact that they're all pulling from the same core list/units. It wasn't the legion rules that made me want to play 30k, it was the fact 40k sucked at that point lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"


Ya, basically they defend, iron warriors attack. But there was cool fluff in the details on both side, iron warriors just throwing thousands of serfs and slaves to soak up bullets and probe for weaknesses, IF having crazy ass fortresses.

In game terms tho, attack defend stuff is tougher to balance that normal skirmishing.


We're talking about fluff, not about rules/gameplay.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/01 20:20:54


Post by: Crablezworth


I'm talking about fluff expressed through gameplay, also the fluff taking the form of reaction in a lot of ways now isn't a great direction.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/02 04:34:19


Post by: BrianDavion


chaos0xomega wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
on the other hand the Legions that don't have these "special things" such as the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, are often dismissed as boring. I mean I prefer the boring legions because they tend to be the ones that have the most nuanced development, as the writers can't just lean into "WOLVES! THEY HAVE WOLVES! AND DO WOLF STUFF!"


Nono, even the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are special-er than the rest. They both get their fair share of superlatives which in many cases sound suspiciously similar to the superlatives bestowed on other legions. Especially the ultramarines, whos fluff literally paints them as being first amongst specials, and the specialist of the special (except for the other guys who are special-er), who all the other special guys look up to and wish they could be as special as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.


Yep, basically this. The writers only seem to rarely make good use of the overlap (Iron Warriors v Imperial Fists, for example), other times it seems unintentional and the result of running out of ideas/forgetting the traits of other legions and trying to make the one legion seem specialer by misattributing qualities to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crablezworth wrote:
What makes the game work well isn't the special cases but the fact that they're all pulling from the same core list/units. It wasn't the legion rules that made me want to play 30k, it was the fact 40k sucked at that point lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"


Ya, basically they defend, iron warriors attack. But there was cool fluff in the details on both side, iron warriors just throwing thousands of serfs and slaves to soak up bullets and probe for weaknesses, IF having crazy ass fortresses.

In game terms tho, attack defend stuff is tougher to balance that normal skirmishing.


We're talking about fluff, not about rules/gameplay.


In fairness the Ultramarines aknowledged specialty, at least in the HH is the part of warfare most 14 year old boys find the most boring (and most generals admit is most important)
Logistics


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/02 06:19:46


Post by: Togusa


 Da Boss wrote:
Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.


I think what I like the most about IW is the fact that they aren't as tough and fortress like as they appear. Perty pushed his men to the absolute brink, he failed to take into consideration that under all the augmentation, genetic engineering, mental conditioning and battle training, Marines are still human. They still have human emotions, they can still doubt themselves and their abilities and his constant pushing didn't help with this. They're interesting because they're broken.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/02 12:02:25


Post by: chaos0xomega


BrianDavion wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
on the other hand the Legions that don't have these "special things" such as the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, are often dismissed as boring. I mean I prefer the boring legions because they tend to be the ones that have the most nuanced development, as the writers can't just lean into "WOLVES! THEY HAVE WOLVES! AND DO WOLF STUFF!"


Nono, even the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are special-er than the rest. They both get their fair share of superlatives which in many cases sound suspiciously similar to the superlatives bestowed on other legions. Especially the ultramarines, whos fluff literally paints them as being first amongst specials, and the specialist of the special (except for the other guys who are special-er), who all the other special guys look up to and wish they could be as special as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.


Yep, basically this. The writers only seem to rarely make good use of the overlap (Iron Warriors v Imperial Fists, for example), other times it seems unintentional and the result of running out of ideas/forgetting the traits of other legions and trying to make the one legion seem specialer by misattributing qualities to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crablezworth wrote:
What makes the game work well isn't the special cases but the fact that they're all pulling from the same core list/units. It wasn't the legion rules that made me want to play 30k, it was the fact 40k sucked at that point lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"


Ya, basically they defend, iron warriors attack. But there was cool fluff in the details on both side, iron warriors just throwing thousands of serfs and slaves to soak up bullets and probe for weaknesses, IF having crazy ass fortresses.

In game terms tho, attack defend stuff is tougher to balance that normal skirmishing.


We're talking about fluff, not about rules/gameplay.


In fairness the Ultramarines aknowledged specialty, at least in the HH is the part of warfare most 14 year old boys find the most boring (and most generals admit is most important)
Logistics


Sure. If you ignore the part where all the other special marines look up to the Ultramarines and wish they could be more like them. And their specially pure highly adaptable geneseed. And the fact that they have their own semi-autonomous empire that is less grimdark and more enlightened than the actual empire they serve. And they were so special that they weren't recruited from one specific region of terra, but instead across multiple regions of terra - unlike all the other legions who only came from one region of terra, except for the other legions who came from multiple regions of terra, like the World Eaters/War Hounds. etc. etc. etc.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/02 17:06:24


Post by: BrianDavion


chaos0xomega wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
on the other hand the Legions that don't have these "special things" such as the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, are often dismissed as boring. I mean I prefer the boring legions because they tend to be the ones that have the most nuanced development, as the writers can't just lean into "WOLVES! THEY HAVE WOLVES! AND DO WOLF STUFF!"


Nono, even the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are special-er than the rest. They both get their fair share of superlatives which in many cases sound suspiciously similar to the superlatives bestowed on other legions. Especially the ultramarines, whos fluff literally paints them as being first amongst specials, and the specialist of the special (except for the other guys who are special-er), who all the other special guys look up to and wish they could be as special as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.


Yep, basically this. The writers only seem to rarely make good use of the overlap (Iron Warriors v Imperial Fists, for example), other times it seems unintentional and the result of running out of ideas/forgetting the traits of other legions and trying to make the one legion seem specialer by misattributing qualities to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crablezworth wrote:
What makes the game work well isn't the special cases but the fact that they're all pulling from the same core list/units. It wasn't the legion rules that made me want to play 30k, it was the fact 40k sucked at that point lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"


Ya, basically they defend, iron warriors attack. But there was cool fluff in the details on both side, iron warriors just throwing thousands of serfs and slaves to soak up bullets and probe for weaknesses, IF having crazy ass fortresses.

In game terms tho, attack defend stuff is tougher to balance that normal skirmishing.


We're talking about fluff, not about rules/gameplay.


In fairness the Ultramarines aknowledged specialty, at least in the HH is the part of warfare most 14 year old boys find the most boring (and most generals admit is most important)
Logistics


Sure. If you ignore the part where all the other special marines look up to the Ultramarines and wish they could be more like them. And their specially pure highly adaptable geneseed. And the fact that they have their own semi-autonomous empire that is less grimdark and more enlightened than the actual empire they serve. And they were so special that they weren't recruited from one specific region of terra, but instead across multiple regions of terra - unlike all the other legions who only came from one region of terra, except for the other legions who came from multiple regions of terra, like the World Eaters/War Hounds. etc. etc. etc.



dude, go complain about the 5th edition marine codex elsewhere. as for the "recruiting from all across terra" generally that was pretty common it's clear that the emperor was looking for certain traits for each legion, with some he found it in a specific region, in others he looked more widely, and in the Ultramarines it seems the emperor choose from among those groups who resisted the most (which likly had the conveniant side effect of depelating their pools of manpower)


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/02 18:02:24


Post by: Tyel


My reading of the legions based on the HH book series at least is that there are sort of mirrors (although this can certainly be questioned.) Some of which were old standards - but others were more developed because very little had previously been written of the chapters.

Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors - Siege Warfare.
Salamanders/Death Guard - WW1-style wading through poison/fire soaked trenches.
Ultramarines/Word Bearers - Better Organisation.
Dark Angels/Sons of Horus - Tip of the Spear/doing a bit of everything but being tough while doing it.
Blood Angels/Emperors Children - Also tip of the Spear *but looking good/Anime* while doing it.
Space Wolves/World Eaters - Berserkers.
Raven Guard/Night Lords - Terror tactics.
White Scars/Alpha Legion - Outsiders.
(All 4 kind of do infiltration in their own ways.)

Which sort of leaves Iron Hands & Thousand Sons in their own bracket. You can kind of try and pair them up as "Post-Marine", but that is a bit of a reach (Reflecting that Iron Hands were not meant to be this in HH era, as it represents a 40k degeneration). Unfortunately I feel Iron Hands suffer especially because the HH in fiction is very much a story of the Primarchs, and Ferrus Manus cops it in the opening act.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/02 18:58:23


Post by: chaos0xomega


Tyel wrote:
My reading of the legions based on the HH book series at least is that there are sort of mirrors (although this can certainly be questioned.) Some of which were old standards - but others were more developed because very little had previously been written of the chapters.

Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors - Siege Warfare.
Salamanders/Death Guard - WW1-style wading through poison/fire soaked trenches.
Ultramarines/Word Bearers - Better Organisation.
Dark Angels/Sons of Horus - Tip of the Spear/doing a bit of everything but being tough while doing it.
Blood Angels/Emperors Children - Also tip of the Spear *but looking good/Anime* while doing it.
Space Wolves/World Eaters - Berserkers.
Raven Guard/Night Lords - Terror tactics.
White Scars/Alpha Legion - Outsiders.
(All 4 kind of do infiltration in their own ways.)

Which sort of leaves Iron Hands & Thousand Sons in their own bracket. You can kind of try and pair them up as "Post-Marine", but that is a bit of a reach (Reflecting that Iron Hands were not meant to be this in HH era, as it represents a 40k degeneration). Unfortunately I feel Iron Hands suffer especially because the HH in fiction is very much a story of the Primarchs, and Ferrus Manus cops it in the opening act.


Theres lots of problems with this though, as you can just as easily argue that Alpha Legion are mirrored by Raven Guard for stealth and infiltration. Likewise you can argue that Iron Hands are the mirror of Ewmperors Children ho were similarly known for being fine weaponsmiths. That same parallel can also be drawn between the Emperors Children and Salamanders (as well as the Salamanders and the Iron Hands). Theres argument to be made for the World Eaters mirroring the Blood Angels instead of the Space Wolves, and Thousand Sons mirroring the White Scars.

Because every legion is special-er than all the other legions, except for the ones that are special-er than they are.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/02 19:58:48


Post by: Tyel


Oh yeah. I mean its an argument - people can and will argue against it. It would probably be more accurate to do a 2d compass style graph with the legions in certain spots.

(FWIW though, while the lore went with it, I don't think BA fit Khorne at all. Its what they could be. What they *are* is anime - which means Slaanesh. But ymmv.)


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/02 21:15:51


Post by: Platuan4th


Not sure how "anime=Slaanesh" considering there's some pretty brutal, Khorne style animes, especially back in the 80's and 90's.

Hentai, sure, but not anime as a whole.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/03 00:20:32


Post by: Strg Alt


BrianDavion wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
on the other hand the Legions that don't have these "special things" such as the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, are often dismissed as boring. I mean I prefer the boring legions because they tend to be the ones that have the most nuanced development, as the writers can't just lean into "WOLVES! THEY HAVE WOLVES! AND DO WOLF STUFF!"


Nono, even the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are special-er than the rest. They both get their fair share of superlatives which in many cases sound suspiciously similar to the superlatives bestowed on other legions. Especially the ultramarines, whos fluff literally paints them as being first amongst specials, and the specialist of the special (except for the other guys who are special-er), who all the other special guys look up to and wish they could be as special as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.


Yep, basically this. The writers only seem to rarely make good use of the overlap (Iron Warriors v Imperial Fists, for example), other times it seems unintentional and the result of running out of ideas/forgetting the traits of other legions and trying to make the one legion seem specialer by misattributing qualities to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crablezworth wrote:
What makes the game work well isn't the special cases but the fact that they're all pulling from the same core list/units. It wasn't the legion rules that made me want to play 30k, it was the fact 40k sucked at that point lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"


Ya, basically they defend, iron warriors attack. But there was cool fluff in the details on both side, iron warriors just throwing thousands of serfs and slaves to soak up bullets and probe for weaknesses, IF having crazy ass fortresses.

In game terms tho, attack defend stuff is tougher to balance that normal skirmishing.


We're talking about fluff, not about rules/gameplay.


In fairness the Ultramarines aknowledged specialty, at least in the HH is the part of warfare most 14 year old boys find the most boring (and most generals admit is most important)
Logistics


So the unsung heroes of the UM are in fact legion serfs/servitors loading up ammo and nutrition power bars. It figures.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/03 12:04:10


Post by: tauist


Tyel wrote:
Oh yeah. I mean its an argument - people can and will argue against it. It would probably be more accurate to do a 2d compass style graph with the legions in certain spots.

(FWIW though, while the lore went with it, I don't think BA fit Khorne at all. Its what they could be. What they *are* is anime - which means Slaanesh. But ymmv.)


I beg your pardon? Blood Angels being anime?

Can you elaborate. As a Blood Angels player, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here..


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/03 13:07:18


Post by: Tyel


 tauist wrote:

I beg your pardon? Blood Angels being anime?

Can you elaborate. As a Blood Angels player, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here..


That they are a bunch of cursed, beautiful vampires led by a literal angel?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/03 15:34:03


Post by: Platuan4th


Tyel wrote:
 tauist wrote:

I beg your pardon? Blood Angels being anime?

Can you elaborate. As a Blood Angels player, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here..


That they are a bunch of cursed, beautiful vampires led by a literal angel?


Yeah, cause there's absolutely NO Western media like that, right, Anne Rice?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/09 15:40:09


Post by: Crablezworth


Totally not feeling vindicated that reactions are bad, at all...





Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/09 19:25:42


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crablezworth wrote:
Totally not feeling vindicated that reactions are bad, at all...





even assuming the admechs big bad robots have reactions (they may not be eligable) there are ways around this. if a SINGLE reaction like that loses you the game you where the inferior general anyway. heck I'd argue the therea re other reactions that are potntially more potent then this. Advanced reactions are CLEARLY intended to be a "ocne per game ability that if used at the right moment in the right circumstances can turn the tide in your favor.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/09 20:02:30


Post by: lord_blackfang


Sorry for coming in late. Seems to me most of the terrain issues have been fixed by finally walking back a mistake that has dragged on since 2008: you can no longer kill what you can't see, on a model by model basis.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/10 15:31:38


Post by: SamusDrake


 tauist wrote:


I beg your pardon? Blood Angels being anime?

Can you elaborate. As a Blood Angels player, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here..


Noooo they're not anime at all...

...they just sparkle in the sunlight, thats all.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/11 04:48:54


Post by: Platuan4th


SamusDrake wrote:
 tauist wrote:


I beg your pardon? Blood Angels being anime?

Can you elaborate. As a Blood Angels player, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here..


Noooo they're not anime at all...

...they just sparkle in the sunlight, thats all.


That's not an anime convention for vampires, that's literally a Western invention by an American author.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/11 14:25:32


Post by: SamusDrake


 Platuan4th wrote:


That's not an anime convention for vampires, that's literally a Western invention by an American author.


We're having fun with the Blood Angels player, who doesn't take kindly to their badass dracula marines being referred to as anime "pretty boys". Insinuating that they might be Twilight vampires is even more unforgivable!



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/12 07:58:59


Post by: lord_blackfang


I'm just glad that we're finally getting official rules for Blood Angels that fell to Chaos


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/12 20:12:24


Post by: blood reaper


SamusDrake wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:


That's not an anime convention for vampires, that's literally a Western invention by an American author.


We're having fun with the Blood Angels player, who doesn't take kindly to their badass dracula marines being referred to as anime "pretty boys". Insinuating that they might be Twilight vampires is even more unforgivable!





When anime was mentioned I was hoping someone was talking about DIO/Dio Brando style Vampires and not making the same tired redditor sparkle joke for the 500th time - but hope is the first step on the way to disappointment.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/12 23:33:44


Post by: SamusDrake


 blood reaper wrote:


When anime was mentioned I was hoping someone was talking about DIO/Dio Brando style Vampires and not making the same tired redditor sparkle joke for the 500th time - but hope is the first step on the way to disappointment.


What a drag that must be...


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/13 07:43:23


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Rules entirely aside? I’m just stoked my resin hating arse can now get involved in Heresy properly.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/13 08:27:59


Post by: BrianDavion


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Rules entirely aside? I’m just stoked my resin hating arse can now get involved in Heresy properly.


this


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/13 08:40:51


Post by: blood reaper


BrianDavion wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Rules entirely aside? I’m just stoked my resin hating arse can now get involved in Heresy properly.


this


Personally I don't hate resin - what I hate is Forge World's resin. Low quality, poorly put together crap which is sold at an obscene premium.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/13 09:01:26


Post by: SamusDrake


 blood reaper wrote:


Personally I don't hate resin - what I hate is Forge World's resin. Low quality, poorly put together crap which is sold at an obscene premium.


Definitely agree with you regarding the price. Adeptus Titanicus went down the plug hole when they had the audacity to charge £30+ for three tiny armigers.

At that point they might as well add an stl service to Warhammer+ and let players print their own.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/13 09:25:31


Post by: blood reaper


SamusDrake wrote:
 blood reaper wrote:


Personally I don't hate resin - what I hate is Forge World's resin. Low quality, poorly put together crap which is sold at an obscene premium.


Definitely agree with you regarding the price. Adeptus Titanicus went down the plug hole when they had the audacity to charge £30+ for three tiny armigers.

At that point they might as well add an stl service to Warhammer+ and let players print their own.


I will say that not all FW stuff I've received has been of poor quality - but god, the mould seams on Alpharius (a nearly £100 figure which is presented as a premium product) - that was ridiculous.



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/13 09:45:38


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Price doesn’t bother me. I can either afford something and see the value in it, or I can’t.

But I hate working with resin. Any resin. It’s fiddly. Superglue prefers my fingers, hands and even face.

Give me plastic any day of the week. Infinitely easier and more satisfying to work with. I don’t need specialist tools. I don’t need special glue. I don’t need to stub it in warm soapy water. I never find an undercoat peeling off because apparently I didn’t scrub it well enough. If I drop a model (accidents do happen), plastic tends to bounce. Certainly not shatter awkwardly.

And with more intricate kit possibilities, I just find plastic more satisfying to build with.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/13 10:59:11


Post by: SamusDrake


 blood reaper wrote:


I will say that not all FW stuff I've received has been of poor quality - but god, the mould seams on Alpharius (a nearly £100 figure which is presented as a premium product) - that was ridiculous.



This makes me glad that I never ventured into Forgeworld products. Dodged the bullet on that one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Price doesn’t bother me. I can either afford something and see the value in it, or I can’t.

But I hate working with resin. Any resin. It’s fiddly. Superglue prefers my fingers, hands and even face.

Give me plastic any day of the week. Infinitely easier and more satisfying to work with. I don’t need specialist tools. I don’t need special glue. I don’t need to stub it in warm soapy water. I never find an undercoat peeling off because apparently I didn’t scrub it well enough. If I drop a model (accidents do happen), plastic tends to bounce. Certainly not shatter awkwardly.

And with more intricate kit possibilities, I just find plastic more satisfying to build with.


Understandable, as I experienced the problems with finecast with the Farseers & Warlocks kit. Fantastic price but it was a lot of work to clean up and one of the toes broke off, which I really wasn't expecting.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/13 12:06:19


Post by: chaos0xomega


 blood reaper wrote:
SamusDrake wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:


That's not an anime convention for vampires, that's literally a Western invention by an American author.


We're having fun with the Blood Angels player, who doesn't take kindly to their badass dracula marines being referred to as anime "pretty boys". Insinuating that they might be Twilight vampires is even more unforgivable!





When anime was mentioned I was hoping someone was talking about DIO/Dio Brando style Vampires and not making the same tired redditor sparkle joke for the 500th time - but hope is the first step on the way to disappointment.


I just started watching JoJos Bizarre Adventure, finished up Phantom Blood/Battle Tenacity last night and I'm a half dozen episodes into Stardust Crusaders. Gotta be honest, I'm not seeing the Dio x Blood Angels connection here. Dio style vampirism isn't at all what I imagine Blood Angels to be like.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/13 12:39:48


Post by: arkhanist


 blood reaper wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Rules entirely aside? I’m just stoked my resin hating arse can now get involved in Heresy properly.


this


Personally I don't hate resin - what I hate is Forge World's resin. Low quality, poorly put together crap which is sold at an obscene premium.


Definitely. Resin is not as easy to work with as plastic by any means, but one of the advantages of resin is that you usually don't have to do much to it! I've had some excellent 3rd party resin models and bits that were pretty much glue and go. Except FW resin with the amount of bubbles, mold slips, ludicrous size gate, invariably bent, and ludicrous size gaps. The detail can still be very nice, but I really hesitate to buy anything bigger than a helmet these days, especially at the silly prices - and I used to cut-up and repose metal models!

I have a 3d printer, and I'm still buying plastic kits because i :heart: tamiya extra thin so much. (and the plastic kits are nice!)


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/13 17:53:49


Post by: Pacific


The price doesn’t bother me too much, as wargaming is one of my main hobbies and I put aside a good chunk of my disposable income for it. But, I’m having a hard time convincing more casual gaming friends to jump into HH, even with the new box set. Yes it is cheaper than the old resin stuff (and perhaps now more within reach of common folk) but that’s like saying a Maserati is relatively cheap compared to other marque Italian brand cars; if you split a set (removing the rule book) even with a good discount it’s still a good £70-80 for 5 termies, 20 beakies, a praetor and either a land raider or dreadnought. While compared to some GW stuff that’s not bad, we’re following up Star Wars legion where you get a lot more for the same money (and that in itself isn’t the cheapest) and used to skirmish games (inc. GWs own Necromunda) which you can play for far less money.

I’m glad they have made the game more accessible with the box set and plastic releases. But, 5 or 6 ‘essential’ campaign books down the line (most likely within the next 2 years) as well as that lovely looking FW unit (that costs £80, but you have to have!) I think this is still very much at the top end of wargaming price wise. It’s going to take a bit commitment in time and money, and is not for dabblers.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/13 18:21:59


Post by: lord_blackfang


I has a question. Apparently it is well established that volkite weapons go CHOOM!

What is up with that?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/13 18:34:05


Post by: arkhanist


 lord_blackfang wrote:
I has a question. Apparently it is well established that volkite weapons go CHOOM!

What is up with that?


I can't link to it currently because the site is undergoing a lengthy upgrade, but it came from a poster years ago on Bolter&Chainsword IIRC because he didn't like pew-pew. ADB liked choom, and put it in Master of Mankind, and now it's canon.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/14 04:26:23


Post by: Crablezworth


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Rules entirely aside? I’m just stoked my resin hating arse can now get involved in Heresy properly.


Ya that's a silver lining for sure, always liked the spartan but never liked the idea it was heavy enough to break a foot if dropped


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/14 05:20:37


Post by: tauist


Must be my age, whenever I think of Anime, I think of giant robots with laser swords, cowboys riding jetbikes and shooting laser beams from their revolvers. and not some Castlevania type ish.

But at least now I know what you mean - you're talkkng about the "vampirs.. IN SPAACE". Yall can laugh about it as much as you want, my Blood Angels are from the Rogue Trader era, this whole twilight emo thing didnt exist back then. PS I hate the blinged out "pretty boy" BA look, it's ridiculous. I can buy Sanguinius being an angelface (he was an Angel who died for our sins, right?), but the rest of the chapter in my headcanon is a bunch of radiation scorched scarfaces who don't really like to show their face. They also headbutt kill their enemies in close combat with their beaky helmets.

The only 'Angels who are granted the honour of wearing bling are the brothers who have succumbed to the black rage. This is how the artisans of the chapter venerate the ultimate sacrifice of their brothers, they are making the most elaborate "living caskets" for them, for they are all already dead.

*mic drop*




Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/14 09:19:03


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Crablezworth wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Rules entirely aside? I’m just stoked my resin hating arse can now get involved in Heresy properly.


Ya that's a silver lining for sure, always liked the spartan but never liked the idea it was heavy enough to break a foot if dropped


As someone that just recently bought a FW Malcador....

Lord knows what they do with their resin, i had 0 issues with resin from Anvil, literally stuff got delivered out of the bags and box ready to go, from kromlech (even if the injection blocks have been designed iffy on the grot tanks) i had basiclly 5 minutes to clean up 4 grot tanks, but FW resin and Failcast from GW? ... i wasted 3 Hours fixing up the shoulder plate on my decimator (badly twisted) and the recent malcador kit did take a saw to split away from injection blocks... a saw.... and don't get me started on bubbly obliterators.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/14 17:24:57


Post by: Togusa


Not Online!!! wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Rules entirely aside? I’m just stoked my resin hating arse can now get involved in Heresy properly.


Ya that's a silver lining for sure, always liked the spartan but never liked the idea it was heavy enough to break a foot if dropped


As someone that just recently bought a FW Malcador....

Lord knows what they do with their resin, i had 0 issues with resin from Anvil, literally stuff got delivered out of the bags and box ready to go, from kromlech (even if the injection blocks have been designed iffy on the grot tanks) i had basiclly 5 minutes to clean up 4 grot tanks, but FW resin and Failcast from GW? ... i wasted 3 Hours fixing up the shoulder plate on my decimator (badly twisted) and the recent malcador kit did take a saw to split away from injection blocks... a saw.... and don't get me started on bubbly obliterators.



After my Mastadon encounter I swore never to by GW resin again. And for sure I never have. And, I wasn't even the one who built the model!


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/14 19:12:17


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Togusa wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Rules entirely aside? I’m just stoked my resin hating arse can now get involved in Heresy properly.


Ya that's a silver lining for sure, always liked the spartan but never liked the idea it was heavy enough to break a foot if dropped


As someone that just recently bought a FW Malcador....

Lord knows what they do with their resin, i had 0 issues with resin from Anvil, literally stuff got delivered out of the bags and box ready to go, from kromlech (even if the injection blocks have been designed iffy on the grot tanks) i had basiclly 5 minutes to clean up 4 grot tanks, but FW resin and Failcast from GW? ... i wasted 3 Hours fixing up the shoulder plate on my decimator (badly twisted) and the recent malcador kit did take a saw to split away from injection blocks... a saw.... and don't get me started on bubbly obliterators.



After my Mastadon encounter I swore never to by GW resin again. And for sure I never have. And, I wasn't even the one who built the model!

HAHAHA

May i ask what was wrong with the mastadon?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/15 15:51:46


Post by: Robert Facepalmer


They are huge and hollow, so that is a great recipe for fixing warps funtimes.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/19 21:15:56


Post by: Acolyte Kraskor


Mastadon is renown for being terrible to put together.

I've never had anything big from FW but my experience with their infantry is that the level of detail is just stunning.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/20 03:03:14


Post by: Togusa


 lord_blackfang wrote:
I has a question. Apparently it is well established that volkite weapons go CHOOM!

What is up with that?


I love it. Built my self a Choom Choom express. This new Tank is easily the most fun I've had building kits in years. I'll defiantly get a couple more.

[Thumb - 20220619_191704.jpg]


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/20 07:28:06


Post by: Not Online!!!


Robert Facepalmer wrote:They are huge and hollow, so that is a great recipe for fixing warps funtimes.


Acolyte Kraskor wrote:Mastadon is renown for being terrible to put together.

I've never had anything big from FW but my experience with their infantry is that the level of detail is just stunning.


It isn't until you wasted an afternoon on fixing the bits up... i own the old R&H command 2 stubber teams a set of enforcers and some upgrade bits...
Awesome look and models, but jut horrific to clean up.

So in essence that sounds like my malcador except somehow worse. Checks out i guess

Togusa wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
I has a question. Apparently it is well established that volkite weapons go CHOOM!

What is up with that?


I love it. Built my self a Choom Choom express. This new Tank is easily the most fun I've had building kits in years. I'll defiantly get a couple more.


Whilest i like it, the price is a tad steep for me for it.
I do hope the deimos predators come out soon tough. I always wanted a round turret pred.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/20 08:09:17


Post by: Togusa


Not Online!!! wrote:
Robert Facepalmer wrote:They are huge and hollow, so that is a great recipe for fixing warps funtimes.


Acolyte Kraskor wrote:Mastadon is renown for being terrible to put together.

I've never had anything big from FW but my experience with their infantry is that the level of detail is just stunning.


It isn't until you wasted an afternoon on fixing the bits up... i own the old R&H command 2 stubber teams a set of enforcers and some upgrade bits...
Awesome look and models, but jut horrific to clean up.

So in essence that sounds like my malcador except somehow worse. Checks out i guess

Togusa wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
I has a question. Apparently it is well established that volkite weapons go CHOOM!

What is up with that?


I love it. Built my self a Choom Choom express. This new Tank is easily the most fun I've had building kits in years. I'll defiantly get a couple more.


Whilest i like it, the price is a tad steep for me for it.
I do hope the deimos predators come out soon tough. I always wanted a round turret pred.


If you can catch one on a sale I highly recommend this kit. It was just an absolute joy to build. There are so many parts and optional things, and if you have the patience for magnetization it really becomes one heck of a kit with literally dozens of weapon options. The Deimos Predators are also high up on my list of hopeful things.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/20 08:24:23


Post by: Not Online!!!


Rumor has had them at 3 (or 2?) per box for i believe 105 £ if my brain isn't completely scrambled in plastic. If that is the case, then GW can expect a pretty penny from me. I like predators, especially ones with decent rules, and they have decent enough rules for my taste.

also havoc launchers but i am biased as hell in that regard


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/20 19:42:01


Post by: Racerguy180


Wait 3 preds for $150??ish nice, selling full squads seems to be the MO for 2.0


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/20 20:15:48


Post by: Backspacehacker


So far I can definitely see that Tsons need to be addressed in terms of their LA, and clarifications. Just a few things i think need to be changed with them and or clarified .\

-Sehkmet need their Asphyx bolters, IDK why they forgot to give it to them. They had them in 1.0, and you can even upgrade bolters to them, but you cant upgrade sehkmet who before came stock with them.

-The pyro melee psyker power needs to be fixed for magnus and for osiron dreads. The size of the blast is small, but if you use it on magnus or the osiron, you can only hit models in base contact with you, if you use it on a 32mm base you can hit 2 rows of things, so this needs to be upgraded to a large blast for osirons and magnus.

-magnus overall needs to be buffed, or have his points dropped by like 100 points. Right now he is hands down the weakest primarch for how much he costs. He is the second most expensive primarch but can only actually beat alpharius in 1 on 1. The psyker power we have now are to weak to justify using him, and his limit amount of buffing also make him pretty boring. Despite getting full access to all psyker weapons you would honestly never end up using them because why woud you? His war gear is better then any power you can cast. So you have the master of the warp, who shoots out fire crackers rather then fireballs.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/20 20:24:12


Post by: ERJAK


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Price doesn’t bother me. I can either afford something and see the value in it, or I can’t.

But I hate working with resin. Any resin. It’s fiddly. Superglue prefers my fingers, hands and even face.

Give me plastic any day of the week. Infinitely easier and more satisfying to work with. I don’t need specialist tools. I don’t need special glue. I don’t need to stub it in warm soapy water. I never find an undercoat peeling off because apparently I didn’t scrub it well enough. If I drop a model (accidents do happen), plastic tends to bounce. Certainly not shatter awkwardly.

And with more intricate kit possibilities, I just find plastic more satisfying to build with.


I've also found that Forgeworld Resin melts and deforms due to heat relatively easily. I had a avenger strike fighter become a Tie-Advanced in my car during the Winter one year because it was a particularly sunny day.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/20 20:42:59


Post by: Backspacehacker


ERJAK wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Price doesn’t bother me. I can either afford something and see the value in it, or I can’t.

But I hate working with resin. Any resin. It’s fiddly. Superglue prefers my fingers, hands and even face.

Give me plastic any day of the week. Infinitely easier and more satisfying to work with. I don’t need specialist tools. I don’t need special glue. I don’t need to stub it in warm soapy water. I never find an undercoat peeling off because apparently I didn’t scrub it well enough. If I drop a model (accidents do happen), plastic tends to bounce. Certainly not shatter awkwardly.

And with more intricate kit possibilities, I just find plastic more satisfying to build with.


I've also found that Forgeworld Resin melts and deforms due to heat relatively easily. I had a avenger strike fighter become a Tie-Advanced in my car during the Winter one year because it was a particularly sunny day.


Im with Doc here, resin sucks horrible to work with, and FW resin is 100% garbage, worst part about FW is that they dont fix or replace their molds when they start to go back, they will literally run them until they break or have such horribly bad casts they can sell them with out getting in trouble any more.

Like the Solar aux casts? holy god they are bad, like i love the model look, but damn those models are absolute dumpster tier in quality.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/21 04:41:19


Post by: Crablezworth


FW can be nice but the QA seems a bit like a coin toss. Much happier to be building a plastic spartin rn than a resin one, the only downside is when I'm done it won't be as effective to hurl at intruders for last ditch home defense, the forgeworld spartan is heavy enough to crack a skull


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/21 06:56:30


Post by: tauist


I don't really mind resin for smaller things, but vehicle sized models end up far too heavy to be practical for wargaming.

I've actually been quite lucky with FW resin, all my purchases have been decent casts so far.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/21 07:43:09


Post by: Not Online!!!


Racerguy180 wrote:
Wait 3 preds for $150??ish nice, selling full squads seems to be the MO for 2.0


again that was a rumor from a saleslist, which has so far been accurate, but saleslist are notoriously shortened.
even though if it were only 2 , with all the options they will need to put in there that is still a sale on my end.


btw, can someone do me a favour and tell me wich mark Power armor sternguard and the company command squad has from the normal 40k line?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/21 08:25:46


Post by: BrianDavion


Not Online!!! wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
Wait 3 preds for $150??ish nice, selling full squads seems to be the MO for 2.0


again that was a rumor from a saleslist, which has so far been accurate, but saleslist are notoriously shortened.
even though if it were only 2 , with all the options they will need to put in there that is still a sale on my end.


btw, can someone do me a favour and tell me wich mark Power armor sternguard and the company command squad has from the normal 40k line?


they wear highly decorated MK VII armor I belive.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/21 08:35:33


Post by: Not Online!!!


BrianDavion wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
Wait 3 preds for $150??ish nice, selling full squads seems to be the MO for 2.0


again that was a rumor from a saleslist, which has so far been accurate, but saleslist are notoriously shortened.
even though if it were only 2 , with all the options they will need to put in there that is still a sale on my end.


btw, can someone do me a favour and tell me wich mark Power armor sternguard and the company command squad has from the normal 40k line?


they wear highly decorated MK VII armor I belive.


interesting.. well then time to get me some old armor dudes to kit out with the bits from them for headhunters and a legio command squad.

I am fairly certain though that there are some MKVI beakies in there. Still many thinaks for confirming.



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/25 19:31:45


Post by: westiebestie


So, anybody played 2.0 yet? Thoughts so far on the rules and scenarios etc?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/25 21:23:23


Post by: Gert


Really good. It's very much a cleaning up of the old ruleset and the reactions aren't nearly as bad as the doomscryers make them out to be.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/26 11:17:49


Post by: westiebestie


Sounds good!

I have browsed through the book and it looks like my least favourite rule of 7th Ed - Look out, Sir - and the tanking with characters with better armour save it led to, is gone. Am I right? If so then the ever present Artificer armour squad leader isnt going to be everywhere anymore, right.


Personally I quite like alternative activation games in general and prefer them over old school GW turn based. So Reactions is one of the things that drew me in to 2.0 now (the main one being more plastic). Should make for a less passive game with more engagement. And at least the rulebook ones dont seem to be neither OP nor pointless.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/26 11:23:41


Post by: Gert


Well no, wounds are assigned by the player rather than the closest model like in 5th edition.
As for reactions, the Legion ones can be good but are once per game not per turn. The Blood Angels one for example allows you to charge an enemy unit after it shoots your unit but you can only do it once per game so you still have to be canny with your decision.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/26 17:06:35


Post by: westiebestie


 Gert wrote:
Well no, wounds are assigned by the player rather than the closest model like in 5th edition.

Yeah I got that, but if you assign a Wound to your artificer equipped sergeant and fail, he dies. With lookout Sir you could eat the cake and have it.

Sounds fair about the more powerful Legion reactions being once per game.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/26 17:26:29


Post by: Gert


 westiebestie wrote:
Yeah I got that, but if you assign a Wound to your artificer equipped sergeant and fail, he dies. With lookout Sir you could eat the cake and have it.

That's not how "Look Out Sir!" worked. You had to declare it before taking the save on the Character, hence the Look Out part of it. If you chose to make the save on the Character and it failed, it would have to be removed.
It was essentially an ablative wound system if you happened to be getting shot by an AP2 weapon e.g. if a Tactical Sergeant was going to take a Plasma Pistol shot, you could roll to see if another Tactical Marine would take the damage instead.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/26 17:48:49


Post by: westiebestie


Ah, you are right, too many years have passed since 7th Ed.. My bad.

Oh well then I guess you could still use tanking characters as you are free to assign wounds to them, or not to.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/26 19:39:10


Post by: Crablezworth


Letting players assign it as opposed to closest is worse IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 westiebestie wrote:
So, anybody played 2.0 yet? Thoughts so far on the rules and scenarios etc?


I've got a plastic spartan, I'm content with that for 1.0, always wanted one. New scenarios don't look great but at last there aren't a tonne of them, that's good in and of itself.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/26 19:51:42


Post by: Gert


 Crablezworth wrote:
I've got a plastic spartan, I'm content with that for 1.0, always wanted one. New scenarios don't look great but at last there aren't a tonne of them, that's good in and of itself.

So the answer to the question of "Have you played the new edition?" is no.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 05:32:58


Post by: Togusa


I haven't had the chance to play yet. At the moment I've only got one other person to play with unless I drive to the city...which with the clusterfeth of gas prices isn't happening anytime soon. I just completed my box this morning, I have reinforcements coming in next week and my friend is still working on his salamanders. I estimate it will be about a month before I can actually play, but I'm happy to work on painting and building in the meantime.

The next big hurtle is to wait for a FW restock as everything I want to order for my 15th legion is currently out of stock!


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 13:01:45


Post by: Crablezworth


 Gert wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
I've got a plastic spartan, I'm content with that for 1.0, always wanted one. New scenarios don't look great but at last there aren't a tonne of them, that's good in and of itself.

So the answer to the question of "Have you played the new edition?" is no.


Can you guess if I intend to play a game of 2.0?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Togusa wrote:
I haven't had the chance to play yet.


Don't tell Gert that


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 13:05:28


Post by: Gert


 Crablezworth wrote:
Can you guess if I intend to play a game of 2.0?

Why not though? Seriously, most of the rules haven't changed and for the most part, those that have are better off and reactions aren't nearly as powerful as gak-stirrers like TOC made them out to be.
I mean you don't even have to buy the rules because they've been on the internet for like 2 weeks now. So legitimately what is stopping you from even trying the new edition of the game?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't tell Gert that

There's a difference between not having time because life, and what you seem to be doing which is actively avoiding it because you trust a clickbait YouTube channel with an axe to grind over just trying it yourself.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 13:41:20


Post by: Crablezworth


Just for you Gert




I've got rebasing to do



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 13:49:19


Post by: Gert





Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 14:24:31


Post by: blood reaper


 Crablezworth wrote:
Just for you Gert




I've got rebasing to do



I like how you didn't engage with any of his points, posted a smug gif, then a video which I'm not going to watch.

Why do you need to rebase? Does anyone seriously care about base sizes that much?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 15:56:46


Post by: Tannhauser42


 blood reaper wrote:

Why do you need to rebase? Does anyone seriously care about base sizes that much?


I suppose if you play with people who are strict with rules, blast marker placement, movement, who is in/out of close combat, etc., then base sizes can be important. The less casual you and your playgroup are, the less important using the newer base sizes are. It may certainly matter if you want to play in organized events, or with people outside of your normal playgroup.

But you can buy or make base extenders without having to rebase models, it's just a question of how much having a blank 3.5mm ring around the old base bugs you.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 19:52:13


Post by: godardc


Wait: what new base size ???


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 20:18:38


Post by: Tannhauser42


 godardc wrote:
Wait: what new base size ???


Marines switched from 25mm to 32mm some years back.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 21:10:47


Post by: ashlevrier


 westiebestie wrote:
So, anybody played 2.0 yet? Thoughts so far on the rules and scenarios etc?


i have played a few games and i love it. the only thing that got me worried is how to kill dreads with out using dreads. meltas are to short range and the dread walks away for its reaction. i am thinking lots of plasma just for the 4+ AP2 force it to take 5+ invuln. but other wise i love it.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 21:43:36


Post by: Gert


Plasma is AP 4 now.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 21:56:52


Post by: ashlevrier


 Gert wrote:
Plasma is AP 4 now.


Yes its AP is 4 but on a 4+ to wound it becomes AP2 and most plasma is wounding a dread on a 4+ so its almost always going to be AP2 vs dreads.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 22:05:05


Post by: Crablezworth


ashlevrier wrote:
the dread walks away for its reaction.


Pretty sweet


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 22:28:47


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crablezworth wrote:
Just for you Gert






youtube doesn't prove anything and certainly doesn't win a discussion.








Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 22:35:47


Post by: ashlevrier


 Crablezworth wrote:
ashlevrier wrote:
the dread walks away for its reaction.


Pretty sweet


I think it is. Any unit in a real military will back off from a weapon that could kill you. tanks do it all the time. Shoot and back down into cover. well the wests tanks do. eastern tanks dont realy have a reverse gear


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 22:48:17


Post by: CadianSgtBob


ashlevrier wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
ashlevrier wrote:
the dread walks away for its reaction.


Pretty sweet


I think it is. Any unit in a real military will back off from a weapon that could kill you. tanks do it all the time. Shoot and back down into cover. well the wests tanks do. eastern tanks dont realy have a reverse gear


But only once per turn. Once the first tank has moved backwards the rest of them have to wait their turn, it wouldn't be polite to have them get too greedy with being allowed to move.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/27 23:17:58


Post by: ashlevrier


CadianSgtBob wrote:
ashlevrier wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
ashlevrier wrote:
the dread walks away for its reaction.


Pretty sweet


I think it is. Any unit in a real military will back off from a weapon that could kill you. tanks do it all the time. Shoot and back down into cover. well the wests tanks do. eastern tanks dont realy have a reverse gear


But only once per turn. Once the first tank has moved backwards the rest of them have to wait their turn, it wouldn't be polite to have them get too greedy with being allowed to move.


True. the reaction system is cool. it makes me have to think more during there turn and mine.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/28 00:47:29


Post by: BrianDavion


ashlevrier wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
ashlevrier wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
ashlevrier wrote:
the dread walks away for its reaction.


Pretty sweet


I think it is. Any unit in a real military will back off from a weapon that could kill you. tanks do it all the time. Shoot and back down into cover. well the wests tanks do. eastern tanks dont realy have a reverse gear


But only once per turn. Once the first tank has moved backwards the rest of them have to wait their turn, it wouldn't be polite to have them get too greedy with being allowed to move.


True. the reaction system is cool. it makes me have to think more during there turn and mine.


which is a good thing, it makes tactics more important


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/28 10:14:32


Post by: Gert


Its also incredibly funny to say "you've activated my trap card!".


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/28 10:26:17


Post by: godardc


The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game, because you can correct your mistake and simply avoid being charged or shoot at.
While before you had to carefully think about placement, moving, lines of sights etc
And both players / armies are supposed to be playing at the same time, the turn system is just a way to represent this, moving during the opponent's turn doesn't make sense except maybe for particular
(usually speedy) units with some special rule likes the Tau battlesuits had
And there is only a handful reactions isn't a good argument when there is only a few units on the table. How many palatine blades squads will be on the battlefield ? How many terminator units ? Usually, one, maybe two in a 3,000 pts army. Avoiding this important, decisive assault, not because you are good but because you pushed a button and winning like this, is definitely not good


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/28 11:50:39


Post by: Gert


 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game, because you can correct your mistake and simply avoid being charged or shoot at.
While before you had to carefully think about placement, moving, lines of sights etc

You still have to think about these things, unless you've taken the limits on Reactions out of your games for some reason. You can use a limited amount of Reactions in your turn and there are specific times you must decide to activate the reacting unit. Overwatch, for example, has to be activated when an enemy unit declares a charge, it doesn't matter if the charge is successful you must Overwatch if you choose the Reaction. There are also limits on what units can do. Vehicles, for example, can only use Overwatch and Return Fire with defensive weapons i.e. weapons of s6 or below, so you can't dump a Spartan's worth of Lascannon shots into an enemy unit as a Reaction.

And both players / armies are supposed to be playing at the same time, the turn system is just a way to represent this, moving during the opponent's turn doesn't make sense except maybe for particular
(usually speedy) units with some special rule likes the Tau battlesuits had

It's a turn-based game, how time works in-game is a moot point and always has been.


And there is only a handful reactions isn't a good argument when there is only a few units on the table. How many palatine blades squads will be on the battlefield ? How many terminator units ? Usually, one, maybe two in a 3,000 pts army. Avoiding this important, decisive assault, not because you are good but because you pushed a button and winning like this, is definitely not good

Two things:
1 - If you're playing at 3k points and have one super killy unit, that's your fault. In my friend's Blood Angel list at 2k points, they have Crimson Paladins, Dawnbringers, Angels Tears with Assault Cannons, and the jump Contemptor while also having 2 Tactical Squads mounted in Rhinos and one of the BA named characters. Another's Tsons list has 30 Tacticals, Tartaros Terminators, Sehkmet Terminators, a Vindicator, a full Lascannon Predator, a juiced-up Librarian, and a juiced-up Praetor all in 2k points. I think you maybe need to get better at list building chief.
2 - I'm not sure you understand exactly how these Reactions work if you think that one movement Reaction will win you the game. That or you are hyper-focusing on individual examples rather than the game as a whole, in which case you need to broaden your viewpoint.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/28 11:52:53


Post by: chaos0xomega


Thats... an opinion. Not a good one, but its an opinion.

Way I see it is that it makes the game way more tactical. I can now bait my opponent by intentionally putting units in a vulnerable position only to potentially use a reaction to mess with my opponents plans (and in fact, that is exactly what I have done in multiple games now). My opponent now needs to more carefully consider their actions and order of activations in order to ensure that *they* don't make a mistake by mismanaging their resources in the face of my reactions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
I think you maybe need to get better at list building chief.


I think he needs to get better at playing, if the only use for reactions that he can imagine is "correcting mistakes" then he isn't very tactically creative or resourceful. I would argue that "correcting mistakes" is probably the worst possible use for reactions and an indicator of a very passive playstyle.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/28 12:53:22


Post by: BrianDavion


chaos0xomega wrote:
Thats... an opinion. Not a good one, but its an opinion.

Way I see it is that it makes the game way more tactical. I can now bait my opponent by intentionally putting units in a vulnerable position only to potentially use a reaction to mess with my opponents plans (and in fact, that is exactly what I have done in multiple games now). My opponent now needs to more carefully consider their actions and order of activations in order to ensure that *they* don't make a mistake by mismanaging their resources in the face of my reactions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
I think you maybe need to get better at list building chief.


I think he needs to get better at playing, if the only use for reactions that he can imagine is "correcting mistakes" then he isn't very tactically creative or resourceful. I would argue that "correcting mistakes" is probably the worst possible use for reactions and an indicator of a very passive playstyle.


excatly so, baiting is all part of tactics. yougoIgo without any sort of reacction system is utterly tacticless because you seldom need to worry about how your enemy will respond to your movements


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/28 21:11:54


Post by: Toofast


 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/28 21:41:50


Post by: Backspacehacker


To say reactions take the tactical side out of the game is kinda hilarious becuase if anything it makes it more tactical because now, you are not only performing actions with the idea of what your opponent could do in their turn, but how they could use reactions as well, resulting in letting you try and bait them out.
OR even further to bait them into a reaction that you want to use on them.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/28 21:53:28


Post by: Albertorius


Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Stratagems don't really make the game more tactical, though. They make the game more "Hah! Gotcha!"

I can't really comment on reactions, though.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/28 21:59:40


Post by: Gert


There is a far fewer unknowables with Reactions. There are only the core rulebook ones and the ones found in each Legion book, so currently you only won't know 8 advanced Reactions from whatever Legion book you don't have.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/28 22:21:25


Post by: Backspacehacker


 Gert wrote:
There is a far fewer unknowables with Reactions. There are only the core rulebook ones and the ones found in each Legion book, so currently you only won't know 8 advanced Reactions from whatever Legion book you don't have.


This and of those 8 you dont know, only 1 will be applicable and you can just ask your opponent what it is.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 00:12:52


Post by: Crablezworth


 Albertorius wrote:
Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Stratagems don't really make the game more tactical, though. They make the game more "Hah! Gotcha!"

I can't really comment on reactions, though.


Same thing



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 00:16:34


Post by: ashlevrier


 Gert wrote:
Its also incredibly funny to say "you've activated my trap card!".


i am a yugi boomer and i love doing that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game, because you can correct your mistake and simply avoid being charged or shoot at.
While before you had to carefully think about placement, moving, lines of sights etc
And both players / armies are supposed to be playing at the same time, the turn system is just a way to represent this, moving during the opponent's turn doesn't make sense except maybe for particular
(usually speedy) units with some special rule likes the Tau battlesuits had
And there is only a handful reactions isn't a good argument when there is only a few units on the table. How many palatine blades squads will be on the battlefield ? How many terminator units ? Usually, one, maybe two in a 3,000 pts army. Avoiding this important, decisive assault, not because you are good but because you pushed a button and winning like this, is definitely not good


thats where snipers and pining units down comes in. like in a real war you need a combined force to win and move on. its very tactical. if you dont pin them down you will get crushed crossing no mans land like in WW1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Albertorius wrote:
Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Stratagems don't really make the game more tactical, though. They make the game more "Hah! Gotcha!"

I can't really comment on reactions, though.


stratagems made me quit 40k. there where to many. the reactions being a small number and everyone have the same one not counting the single legion spesific one is way balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crablezworth wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Stratagems don't really make the game more tactical, though. They make the game more "Hah! Gotcha!"

I can't really comment on reactions, though.


Same thing




having played both game systems now. there not. even the outer curcle will tell you that. been watching him for years. he is not always right.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 00:32:28


Post by: BrianDavion


 Crablezworth wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Stratagems don't really make the game more tactical, though. They make the game more "Hah! Gotcha!"

I can't really comment on reactions, though.


Same thing




memes don't win arguments how are reactions JUST like strats, and how does this make them bad? you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff





Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 00:54:05


Post by: Crablezworth


"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 02:18:50


Post by: CadianSgtBob


Toofast wrote:
 godardc wrote:
The reactions system takes the tactical side out of the game


They make the game more tactical in the same way stratagems do but without all the bloat. I think reactions are a perfect middle ground between not having anything and every army having 30 unique strats that become impossible to remember.


Properly manipulating the exact details of the rules gimmick =/= tactical. Reactions are better than straight IGOUGO but they're still a bad mechanic and GW needs to admit that IGOUGO is the problem instead of trying to tack on awkwardly limited pseudo-activations.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 03:28:24


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309


I mean you set the topic as "Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far" so posting memes and saying you refuse to even try HH 2.0 seems pretty off topic.

I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to games but I'm also looking forward to when GW finally shows me what Night Lord upgrade sprues will look like so I can decide how I want to approach building my models. Box finally came in yesterday after shipping almost a week after the release date.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 04:26:58


Post by: ashlevrier


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309


I mean you set the topic as "Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far" so posting memes and saying you refuse to even try HH 2.0 seems pretty off topic.

I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to games but I'm also looking forward to when GW finally shows me what Night Lord upgrade sprues will look like so I can decide how I want to approach building my models. Box finally came in yesterday after shipping almost a week after the release date.


i was in the same boat. just got mine today after ordering it when the pre orders first went live.

yah the thread name dont match up well with the op. openly asks for peoples thoughts and then just memes and refuses to even play. from what i have seen the game seams to be well liked.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 04:31:13


Post by: BrianDavion


kinda reeks of looking for confirmation bias doesn't it?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 04:33:17


Post by: ashlevrier


 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309



wait a sec your the guys from youtube that responded to my comment. lol 52 minutes i will never get back.
@Matthew "its almost like its a modern combined arms game where you have to think" X Doubt
haha it is a combined arms game. i need a unit to pin a target inplace. i need a sniper to take out there problem people. then i need a unit to finish the job.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 05:10:08


Post by: Crablezworth


ashlevrier wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309



wait a sec your the guys from youtube that responded to my comment. lol 52 minutes i will never get back.
@Matthew "its almost like its a modern combined arms game where you have to think" X Doubt
haha it is a combined arms game. i need a unit to pin a target inplace. i need a sniper to take out there problem people. then i need a unit to finish the job.


The video is literally linked in the original post


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309


I mean you set the topic as "Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far"


The title of the video has the word our in it, forgot to put that here






Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 05:25:35


Post by: ashlevrier


 Crablezworth wrote:
Sat down and talked about the leaks for HH 2.0, it's mostly discussion and commentary, wouldn't look to this to be informed, it's mostly about what has changed between editions and demonstrating that with models/terrain, like changes to movement and so on. I forgot to plug in the battery charger so we was scrambling between like 3 batteries all under like 30-40% power so I kept having to check to see if we were still recording, camera doesn't make a noise if the battery is what causes the recording to stop and external monitor was elsewhere. Anyway, pretty loose discussion, we're hoping to do some more as more things materialize. In both our cases, we're a bit burned out on alternating activation, been playing AT mostly, so the reactions stuff really didn't sit well, it seemed initially contained but quickly proved to be much more ingrained in the rules. It seems difficult to extricate from the rules, unlike in adeptus titanicus where we could just agree to not use stratagems or limit them. We recently got back to playing 30k 1.0 and what felt like a breath of fresh air was, our turns were our own.

There can be a lot of decision paralysis in games with alternating activations and gotcha mechanics like stratagems. What's refreshing about playing a good old fashioned turn based game again in terms of 30k is, the movement phase is your movement phase, the shooting phase you can again take as it comes and target what you want and maybe even change your mind as you go based on your success and failures in terms of hits/misses, combat phase even feels like you're in the driver seat, you can actually decide the order of everything and what units if any you wish to attempt to assault. None of this is contingent on constantly alternating with your opponent to counter the action you just took. Alternating activation can be great and very enjoyable, but decision paralysis and weird interactions can lead to forgetting where you're at, in adeptus titanicus for example something like a machine spirit getting angry can lead to a whole bunch of sorta extra attacks or damage or a series of bizarre occurrence that can often sorta exist outside of time, because you often sorta resolve it all then get right back to alternating activation, it feels like time dilation sometimes, it can get a bit confusing picking up where you were. The reactions in HH 2.0 start at 2 per phase and there are some limits, but quickly you realize wargear, characters and warlord traits can expand on these limits. In addition, special reactions seem to be part of every legion, meaning just like stratagems there will be a lot of them to contend with and have to commit to memory. And much like the "muh bespoke" laziness of special rules where one usr or reaction might do, some reaction for legios might just be a better version of an existing reaction or functionally identical but more movement value. The counter play basically seems like more stuff causes pinning and pinned units can't use strats/react.

Why the introductions of reactions really get away from itself quickly is you have wargear like say augery scanners that will give intercepts that don't count towards the total reactions you can do in an opponents phase and intercepting doesn't seem to have any downside unlike the current edition, then you have stuff like "the last unit you moved ended with x of my unit, so now i can move away x or advance x or shoot your unit ect. So your turn is no longer your own and decision paralysis will be high or people are going to get very anal about measuring, especially if you end perhaps one inch further than intended triggering a potential reaction, some of us play tired, and all of a sudden trigger a huge string of reactions from your opponent. The other issue is how to scale something like this for games with multiple players or mega battles. How would a 2v2 work realistically if you can grind down and disrupt your opponents turn twice as much as normal, and the same on your turn. I mean that's one thing on an 8x4, but how big can you go, mega battles tend to be at times on longer board like 12x4 ect, so like two long lines clashing, even if you tried to limit reactions how would the accounting of it all even be possible to all participants? These were complex enough to play in a reasonable time in 1.0. "Sorry steve, you can't evade anymore, we ran out of the concept of trying to actively not get shot" and evade means basically everything can do crappier jink now, but not too many! (ugh) This is meant to replace like going to ground, but I'm not sure why you'd do that or need to limit how many units go to ground, going to ground in hh 1.0 is basically self pinning your own unit, and it's often done out of desperation, like just trying to not get shot off an objective. This hybrid choice also sees stuff like treaded vehicles basically being able to jink/evade/go to ground, whatever you wanna call it.

There are bizarre changes to much loved units like javelins, sabre tanks are now much faster, or at least able to be in terms of overall movement. We had hoped that terrain would be addressed because it was something lacking in 1.0, we often used/borrowed terrain rules from the 6th 40k book because it had detailed rules for ruins and various other types of terrain, as well as an overall recommendation of density and a methodology for players to discuss and agree on terrain before dice roll. The biggest thing was like delineating what could and could not move on or deploy on the upper floors of ruins and how pathing worked, like melting through walls or doors and so on. It was useful because it helped keep say a unit on bikes from being able to assault a unit entirely on the 2nd floor of a ruin, or keep people from placing artillery on top of ruins or sillier stuff like rhinos. Sadly 2.0 basically just says "it's difficult terrain" for the most part. In addition cover saves have basically got worse across the board. I think a range of cover saves is better than pushing them mostly towards 5-6+. We mostly played ruins and most solid cover as 4+ in our games of HH and most low cover (sand bags/fences) as 5+.

I don't want to seem to negative, I'm actually quite happy that we'll be seeing new plastics and hopefully support for some time. What I think I'm more skeptical of is even with the pandemic winding down and gaming getting back to more normalcy/frequency I still don't think that means games/hobbyists will see a marked difference in their free time, if anything with more people perhaps no longer working from home as much, they may also eat into hobby/gaming time in terms of commuting/daily grind being more taxing/stressful. Anyway. what I'm saying is outside of people buying the models just to build and paint, the people intending or perhaps fooling themselves into starting HH 2.0 is I don't know if it will last for all of them, simply because like any new game it will likely come at the expense of less attention paid to other games. Can only play so many wargames regularly. There's a section of gamers likely just going to buy the models for 40k use no matter what. Will they suddenly decide they prefer 30k? I don't think it will hook all of them, the same way AT has a vast but limited appeal, only in that its mono faction and there aren't any xenos, much like 30k with the exception of daemons of the ruinstorm and a few other factions outside of marines, but all generally imperial or traitor. Not quite the same as the amount of factions in 9th in terms of all the xenos factions and variety. I just know it will likely have to in some cases cannibalize from other games to hold it's niche, while its possible to conceive of playing both 40k and 30k, I just think it won't have enough to keep the majority of 40k fans invested, at least in the way they are with 9th. The other concern is gw emulating more and more of 9th ed decision marking to try and bring them in. The last tournament I photographed, the majority of 30k models were being used for 40k.

My interest is to continue playing 30k 1.0 based on the leaks. I'll be very content to have a shiny new plastic spartan and potential other new things if gw releases some cool stuff. But I'm gonna do what I can't help but feel most of the 40k players will do also do, buy the models that are cool and use them for another game than HH 2.0. More videos to come.






okay i will brake this down. lets see.

your fist wall of text. most is not realy about the game but in the last part you talk about being burnt out on the alternating turns. thats not the games fault. sounds like you need a brake from AT.

your second wall of text. frist its one per phase. but theres two options to pick from. you dont need to know all 18 legion reactions. just ask your friend what his is then its only one you need to remember. decision paralysis is none existent in this game. i have seen that in games like a billion suns where my friend could not make a decision because theres so many options that its hard to make a right call. forcing you do take into concideration that your friend can interupt your turn is a bonus. it makes how you do things and when to do things matter more. turns in a game are not spit secs. they could be hours or more. if you think a warlord titan is doing all that in seconds then it just makes it seam funny. there not eldar there walking battleships. also after reading how drop pod assaults work now yah you need the intercept every where because your dropping your army right in there face on turn one. gone are the days of drop and alpha strike your friend off the table with no responce. it balences it to where both sides will be damaged. theres also no "you activated my trap card. you know what there options are in each phase of the game.

next wall of text. theres no string of reactions because you moved into a bad spot. theres one reaction. mega battles never worked well in any system. they take to long and complicate a game made to be a 1v1. when you expand the scop of the game beyond its limits then your going to brake something.

next wall of text. simplifying the rules for terrain is a good thing. nothing is stoping you from talking to your friend and making your own calls on how a thing like what can go where.

finaly the last wall of text. your negative. life gets in the way. people will make time for what they love. you cant say that it will just ruin peoples time for 2.0 only. all games will be affected equaly. people can do what ever they want with there stuff. suddenly liking 30k Hmmm yes. whats your point there. some people will try and decide to not like it. again whats your point. no game ever hooks everyone. whats your point. "cannibalize from other games to hold it's niche" could you explane what you mean there. you went to a 40k tournament what did you expect to happen. them to be playing 30k in a 40k tournament.

there i am going to bed. you didnt put the your part in the forum title. you left it open to everyones thoughts.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 17:33:12


Post by: SirDonlad


ashlevrier wrote:
Spoiler:
 Crablezworth wrote:
Sat down and talked about the leaks for HH 2.0, it's mostly discussion and commentary, wouldn't look to this to be informed, it's mostly about what has changed between editions and demonstrating that with models/terrain, like changes to movement and so on. I forgot to plug in the battery charger so we was scrambling between like 3 batteries all under like 30-40% power so I kept having to check to see if we were still recording, camera doesn't make a noise if the battery is what causes the recording to stop and external monitor was elsewhere. Anyway, pretty loose discussion, we're hoping to do some more as more things materialize. In both our cases, we're a bit burned out on alternating activation, been playing AT mostly, so the reactions stuff really didn't sit well, it seemed initially contained but quickly proved to be much more ingrained in the rules. It seems difficult to extricate from the rules, unlike in adeptus titanicus where we could just agree to not use stratagems or limit them. We recently got back to playing 30k 1.0 and what felt like a breath of fresh air was, our turns were our own.

There can be a lot of decision paralysis in games with alternating activations and gotcha mechanics like stratagems. What's refreshing about playing a good old fashioned turn based game again in terms of 30k is, the movement phase is your movement phase, the shooting phase you can again take as it comes and target what you want and maybe even change your mind as you go based on your success and failures in terms of hits/misses, combat phase even feels like you're in the driver seat, you can actually decide the order of everything and what units if any you wish to attempt to assault. None of this is contingent on constantly alternating with your opponent to counter the action you just took. Alternating activation can be great and very enjoyable, but decision paralysis and weird interactions can lead to forgetting where you're at, in adeptus titanicus for example something like a machine spirit getting angry can lead to a whole bunch of sorta extra attacks or damage or a series of bizarre occurrence that can often sorta exist outside of time, because you often sorta resolve it all then get right back to alternating activation, it feels like time dilation sometimes, it can get a bit confusing picking up where you were. The reactions in HH 2.0 start at 2 per phase and there are some limits, but quickly you realize wargear, characters and warlord traits can expand on these limits. In addition, special reactions seem to be part of every legion, meaning just like stratagems there will be a lot of them to contend with and have to commit to memory. And much like the "muh bespoke" laziness of special rules where one usr or reaction might do, some reaction for legios might just be a better version of an existing reaction or functionally identical but more movement value. The counter play basically seems like more stuff causes pinning and pinned units can't use strats/react.

Why the introductions of reactions really get away from itself quickly is you have wargear like say augery scanners that will give intercepts that don't count towards the total reactions you can do in an opponents phase and intercepting doesn't seem to have any downside unlike the current edition, then you have stuff like "the last unit you moved ended with x of my unit, so now i can move away x or advance x or shoot your unit ect. So your turn is no longer your own and decision paralysis will be high or people are going to get very anal about measuring, especially if you end perhaps one inch further than intended triggering a potential reaction, some of us play tired, and all of a sudden trigger a huge string of reactions from your opponent. The other issue is how to scale something like this for games with multiple players or mega battles. How would a 2v2 work realistically if you can grind down and disrupt your opponents turn twice as much as normal, and the same on your turn. I mean that's one thing on an 8x4, but how big can you go, mega battles tend to be at times on longer board like 12x4 ect, so like two long lines clashing, even if you tried to limit reactions how would the accounting of it all even be possible to all participants? These were complex enough to play in a reasonable time in 1.0. "Sorry steve, you can't evade anymore, we ran out of the concept of trying to actively not get shot" and evade means basically everything can do crappier jink now, but not too many! (ugh) This is meant to replace like going to ground, but I'm not sure why you'd do that or need to limit how many units go to ground, going to ground in hh 1.0 is basically self pinning your own unit, and it's often done out of desperation, like just trying to not get shot off an objective. This hybrid choice also sees stuff like treaded vehicles basically being able to jink/evade/go to ground, whatever you wanna call it.

There are bizarre changes to much loved units like javelins, sabre tanks are now much faster, or at least able to be in terms of overall movement. We had hoped that terrain would be addressed because it was something lacking in 1.0, we often used/borrowed terrain rules from the 6th 40k book because it had detailed rules for ruins and various other types of terrain, as well as an overall recommendation of density and a methodology for players to discuss and agree on terrain before dice roll. The biggest thing was like delineating what could and could not move on or deploy on the upper floors of ruins and how pathing worked, like melting through walls or doors and so on. It was useful because it helped keep say a unit on bikes from being able to assault a unit entirely on the 2nd floor of a ruin, or keep people from placing artillery on top of ruins or sillier stuff like rhinos. Sadly 2.0 basically just says "it's difficult terrain" for the most part. In addition cover saves have basically got worse across the board. I think a range of cover saves is better than pushing them mostly towards 5-6+. We mostly played ruins and most solid cover as 4+ in our games of HH and most low cover (sand bags/fences) as 5+.

I don't want to seem to negative, I'm actually quite happy that we'll be seeing new plastics and hopefully support for some time. What I think I'm more skeptical of is even with the pandemic winding down and gaming getting back to more normalcy/frequency I still don't think that means games/hobbyists will see a marked difference in their free time, if anything with more people perhaps no longer working from home as much, they may also eat into hobby/gaming time in terms of commuting/daily grind being more taxing/stressful. Anyway. what I'm saying is outside of people buying the models just to build and paint, the people intending or perhaps fooling themselves into starting HH 2.0 is I don't know if it will last for all of them, simply because like any new game it will likely come at the expense of less attention paid to other games. Can only play so many wargames regularly. There's a section of gamers likely just going to buy the models for 40k use no matter what. Will they suddenly decide they prefer 30k? I don't think it will hook all of them, the same way AT has a vast but limited appeal, only in that its mono faction and there aren't any xenos, much like 30k with the exception of daemons of the ruinstorm and a few other factions outside of marines, but all generally imperial or traitor. Not quite the same as the amount of factions in 9th in terms of all the xenos factions and variety. I just know it will likely have to in some cases cannibalize from other games to hold it's niche, while its possible to conceive of playing both 40k and 30k, I just think it won't have enough to keep the majority of 40k fans invested, at least in the way they are with 9th. The other concern is gw emulating more and more of 9th ed decision marking to try and bring them in. The last tournament I photographed, the majority of 30k models were being used for 40k.

My interest is to continue playing 30k 1.0 based on the leaks. I'll be very content to have a shiny new plastic spartan and potential other new things if gw releases some cool stuff. But I'm gonna do what I can't help but feel most of the 40k players will do also do, buy the models that are cool and use them for another game than HH 2.0. More videos to come.






okay i will brake this down. lets see.

your fist wall of text. most is not realy about the game but in the last part you talk about being burnt out on the alternating turns. thats not the games fault. sounds like you need a brake from AT.

your second wall of text. frist its one per phase. but theres two options to pick from. you dont need to know all 18 legion reactions. just ask your friend what his is then its only one you need to remember. decision paralysis is none existent in this game. i have seen that in games like a billion suns where my friend could not make a decision because theres so many options that its hard to make a right call. forcing you do take into concideration that your friend can interupt your turn is a bonus. it makes how you do things and when to do things matter more. turns in a game are not spit secs. they could be hours or more. if you think a warlord titan is doing all that in seconds then it just makes it seam funny. there not eldar there walking battleships. also after reading how drop pod assaults work now yah you need the intercept every where because your dropping your army right in there face on turn one. gone are the days of drop and alpha strike your friend off the table with no responce. it balences it to where both sides will be damaged. theres also no "you activated my trap card. you know what there options are in each phase of the game.

next wall of text. theres no string of reactions because you moved into a bad spot. theres one reaction. mega battles never worked well in any system. they take to long and complicate a game made to be a 1v1. when you expand the scop of the game beyond its limits then your going to brake something.

next wall of text. simplifying the rules for terrain is a good thing. nothing is stoping you from talking to your friend and making your own calls on how a thing like what can go where.

finaly the last wall of text. your negative. life gets in the way. people will make time for what they love. you cant say that it will just ruin peoples time for 2.0 only. all games will be affected equaly. people can do what ever they want with there stuff. suddenly liking 30k Hmmm yes. whats your point there. some people will try and decide to not like it. again whats your point. no game ever hooks everyone. whats your point. "cannibalize from other games to hold it's niche" could you explane what you mean there. you went to a 40k tournament what did you expect to happen. them to be playing 30k in a 40k tournament.

there i am going to bed. you didnt put the your part in the forum title. you left it open to everyones thoughts.


Hi! Welcome!

People who have been invested in the game to the tune of thousands are absolutely entitled to dislike changes.

The issue i'm seeing here is the people who like it can't see that it's fundamentally a different game because of it.

Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 19:43:27


Post by: Crablezworth


 SirDonlad wrote:


Hi! Welcome!

People who have been invested in the game to the tune of thousands are absolutely entitled to dislike changes.

The issue i'm seeing here is the people who like it can't see that it's fundamentally a different game because of it.

Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


A decade is a long time to play a game, it's also a fairly stable time too, so was never in some fiendish need for new rules, took to 30k to avoid post 7th 40k. Agreed that it is a fundamentally different game now, but thankfully 1.0 works pretty well.

Agreed on the igougo, works well for 1.0

The plastic spartan is pretty cool so far, hoping to get it done soon. The rebasing of everything on 32's is gonna take longer, need to get like 60+ 32mm's. I guess I shouldn't be working on it and instead forcing myself to play 2.0



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 19:55:26


Post by: CadianSgtBob


 SirDonlad wrote:
Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


I wouldn't bet much on it. IGOUGO is a bad mechanic and the rest of the gaming world has moved on from it for good reasons. Having played games with both types of turn structure I have never thought "I wish this game was IGOUGO".


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 19:57:12


Post by: Crablezworth


CadianSgtBob wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


I wouldn't bet much on it. IGOUGO is a bad mechanic and the rest of the gaming world has moved on from it for good reasons. Having played games with both types of turn structure I have never thought "I wish this game was IGOUGO".



"the rest of the gaming world has moved on"

It really hasn't.




It's also worth pointing out that if you factor in what "the gaming world" thinks you'll never be able to enjoy anything, for example apparently 2.0's biggest problem isn't reaction it's muh tranphobic or something

https://www.goonhammer.com/editorial-transphobic-language-and-the-horus-heresy/


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 20:25:51


Post by: ashlevrier





Hi! Welcome!

People who have been invested in the game to the tune of thousands are absolutely entitled to dislike changes.

The issue i'm seeing here is the people who like it can't see that it's fundamentally a different game because of it.

Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


please point to where is said you cant dislike it. i dislike AoS and 9th. i could list a long list of games that i have played and will tell you that the IGOUGO system is just not as good as a alternating activation game. its like one is caveman and the other is a supercar. DirtSide2 is a amazing game system that has never been updated and i love buying GHQ 6mm tanks. dont judge me for having more T14 armadas than the russians.

i stopped playing 40k at 8th. i came in at 4th and played eldar till 8th.

this game braught me back because it requires 3 books and the armies are all the same with i few small things here and there. just like a second game i love AT. so MARK ME. lol i have seen all sides of the grass and know where i like to stands.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 20:28:25


Post by: SirDonlad


CadianSgtBob wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


I wouldn't bet much on it. IGOUGO is a bad mechanic and the rest of the gaming world has moved on from it for good reasons. Having played games with both types of turn structure I have never thought "I wish this game was IGOUGO".


consider: 'chess'


if we want to be philosophical about it, actual combat is IGOUGO at a strategic level


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 20:32:05


Post by: ashlevrier


 Crablezworth wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


I wouldn't bet much on it. IGOUGO is a bad mechanic and the rest of the gaming world has moved on from it for good reasons. Having played games with both types of turn structure I have never thought "I wish this game was IGOUGO".



"the rest of the gaming world has moved on"

It really hasn't.




It's also worth pointing out that if you factor in what "the gaming world" thinks you'll never be able to enjoy anything, for example apparently 2.0's biggest problem isn't reaction it's muh tranphobic or something



looks over at all the good games that have come out with alternating turns. theres some that are old and still kicking. dirtside is alive and well. where is all the old 1.0 players. finds all the alpha strike players that have been playing that game now for how long and it has alternating turns. love me some battletech. lol theres even the real old starfleet battles and there system of how a turn goes. do you have evidence tp back your clame or just memes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:



if we want to be philosophical about it, actual combat is IGOUGO at a strategic level


what. now your just trolling.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 20:54:44


Post by: SirDonlad


ashlevrier wrote:
Spoiler:



Hi! Welcome!

People who have been invested in the game to the tune of thousands are absolutely entitled to dislike changes.

The issue i'm seeing here is the people who like it can't see that it's fundamentally a different game because of it.

Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


please point to where is said you cant dislike it.
Spoiler:
i dislike AoS and 9th. i could list a long list of games that i have played and will tell you that the IGOUGO system is just not as good as a alternating activation game. its like one is caveman and the other is a supercar. DirtSide2 is a amazing game system that has never been updated and i love buying GHQ 6mm tanks. dont judge me for having more T14 armadas than the russians.

i stopped playing 40k at 8th. i came in at 4th and played eldar till 8th.

this game braught me back because it requires 3 books and the armies are all the same with i few small things here and there. just like a second game i love AT. so MARK ME. lol i have seen all sides of the grass and know where i like to stands.


so, looking back over your back-and-forth with crabblesworth your critique is easily surmised as "disliking it is off topic" first stated by ClockworkZion which you agreed with
yah the thread name dont match up well with the op. openly asks for peoples thoughts and then just memes and refuses to even play. from what i have seen the game seams to be well liked.


Stop inferring that memes cannot inherently make an argument.
Because that's literally the whole point of memes

Oh my word, you don't know how telling someone to 'mark your words' is supposed to be used...
I gave you a clear prediction of something to happen in the future; you merely stated you like other games too.
i mean, fine, whatever, i'll take your word for it i suppose


Yes, real war is IGOUGO.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 21:32:37


Post by: ashlevrier


 SirDonlad wrote:
ashlevrier wrote:
Spoiler:



Hi! Welcome!

People who have been invested in the game to the tune of thousands are absolutely entitled to dislike changes.

The issue i'm seeing here is the people who like it can't see that it's fundamentally a different game because of it.

Mark me.
You will realize one day that you actually like IGOUGO and concurrent phases are the greener grass next door.


please point to where is said you cant dislike it.
Spoiler:
i dislike AoS and 9th. i could list a long list of games that i have played and will tell you that the IGOUGO system is just not as good as a alternating activation game. its like one is caveman and the other is a supercar. DirtSide2 is a amazing game system that has never been updated and i love buying GHQ 6mm tanks. dont judge me for having more T14 armadas than the russians.

i stopped playing 40k at 8th. i came in at 4th and played eldar till 8th.

this game braught me back because it requires 3 books and the armies are all the same with i few small things here and there. just like a second game i love AT. so MARK ME. lol i have seen all sides of the grass and know where i like to stands.


so, looking back over your back-and-forth with crabblesworth your critique is easily surmised as "disliking it is off topic" first stated by ClockworkZion which you agreed with
yah the thread name dont match up well with the op. openly asks for peoples thoughts and then just memes and refuses to even play. from what i have seen the game seams to be well liked.


Stop inferring that memes cannot inherently make an argument.
Because that's literally the whole point of memes

Oh my word, you don't know how telling someone to 'mark your words' is supposed to be used...
I gave you a clear prediction of something to happen in the future; you merely stated you like other games too.
i mean, fine, whatever, i'll take your word for it i suppose


Yes, real war is IGOUGO.

lol failed to point to where i said you cant dislike a game. and your trying to twist my "yah the thread name dont match up well with the op. openly asks for peoples thoughts and then just memes and refuses to even play. from what i have seen the game seams to be well liked" lol

memes are ment to be funny also. not just a "make an argument." i think i need to show you how to troll and meme.

the title of the thread is "thoughts so far." that is opening the door for everyone. if he wanted to share his boomer views then it should be titled MY thoughts so far. can you see the difference.

also i trolled you with saying MARK ME. because your little mark my words is silly that it needed to be memed. so who is memeing and trolling who here. Sir Donald of Duck. quack!


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 22:10:57


Post by: lord_blackfang


People really do say infer when they actually mean imply, huh. I thought it was just a random quip in a Weird Al song.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 22:11:28


Post by: SirDonlad


If critique is 'off topic' then only praise can remain.
That's not a difficult concept to grasp.

If a meme is funny then it has a contrarian point which is the object of the humor.
I've seen millions of un-funny memes.

Listen up son; you lack the understanding of the English language required comprehend how wrong you are.
You are grammatically, literally, philosophically, intellectually and theoretically wrong.

You seem unable to comprehend the fact you have been 'dunked on' so hard that you have decided that the lack of responses was your righteousness: when in fact the entire user base of the site which can see this thread are sitting back and watching what nonsense you type next.
You are not salvaging your reputation, you are not taking victory laps; you are digging a metaphorical hole which is so deep now, you have mistaken the opening for the moon and continued to dig.

It is not a troll if you made yourself look like an idiot while doing so; it has now become a 'self-own'.

the title of the thread is "thoughts so far." that is opening the door for everyone. if he wanted to share his boomer views then it should be titled MY thoughts so far.

how DARE he just SHARE his opinion in a thread he created about sharing opinions? doesn't he KNOW that I LIKE IT?!? what an ASS!
I mean, just NOT liking it is, like, totally off topic..
Your opinion is not bussin' FR bruh. on god.

Is it registering exactly how you are coming across now?



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 22:21:31


Post by: ashlevrier


 SirDonlad wrote:
If critique is 'off topic' then only praise can remain.
That's not a difficult concept to grasp.

If a meme is funny then it has a contrarian point which is the object of the humor.
I've seen millions of un-funny memes.

Listen up son; you lack the understanding of the English language required comprehend how wrong you are.
You are grammatically, literally, philosophically, intellectually and theoretically wrong.

You seem unable to comprehend the fact you have been 'dunked on' so hard that you have decided that the lack of responses was your righteousness: when in fact the entire user base of the site which can see this thread are sitting back and watching what nonsense you type next.
You are not salvaging your reputation, you are not taking victory laps; you are digging a metaphorical hole which is so deep now, you have mistaken the opening for the moon and continued to dig.

It is not a troll if you made yourself look like an idiot while doing so; it has now become a 'self-own'.

the title of the thread is "thoughts so far." that is opening the door for everyone. if he wanted to share his boomer views then it should be titled MY thoughts so far.

how DARE he just SHARE his opinion in a thread he created about sharing opinions? doesn't he KNOW that I LIKE IT?!? what an ASS!
I mean, just NOT liking it is, like, totally off topic..
Your opinion is not bussin' FR bruh. on god.

Is it registering exactly how you are coming across now?



you seam mad. lol i dont care for what online people think and the op in this thread that it was ment for him only to share his thought and just memed otheres for giving a different point of view. lol let me play you a song


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 22:40:54


Post by: SirDonlad


-Removed-


The mods decided to remove this one?!

v. confusing.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 23:13:50


Post by: ClockworkZion


 SirDonlad wrote:
so, looking back over your back-and-forth with crabblesworth your critique is easily surmised as "disliking it is off topic" first stated by ClockworkZion

Now hold on there. I didn't say disliking it was off-topic. I said refusing to even try the game out and then posting memes in response to people discussing the game was off topic. How do you have thoughts on the edition if you refuse to play the edition? I never said anyone had to like the edition, just that refusing to even try it is pretty shallow in how deep your "thoughts so far" can go.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 23:26:55


Post by: lord_blackfang


To be fair, I think the edition is good without having played it, either


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 23:31:22


Post by: Backspacehacker


Ill be honestly i never understood the hatred of IGOUGO, so many games operate off it, and its been fine for the last what 30 years?
If you think removing IGOUGO puts the game in a better place, you are just trading one set of problems for another.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 23:41:25


Post by: SirDonlad


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
so, looking back over your back-and-forth with crabblesworth your critique is easily surmised as "disliking it is off topic" first stated by ClockworkZion

Now hold on there. I didn't say disliking it was off-topic. I said refusing to even try the game out and then posting memes in response to people discussing the game was off topic. How do you have thoughts on the edition if you refuse to play the edition? I never said anyone had to like the edition, just that refusing to even try it is pretty shallow in how deep your "thoughts so far" can go.


I think you'll agree that in another context it is reasonable to assess a game system and it's merits/failings without playing it.
I think you should examine your own response; to the release of a new codex for example.
You go over it and see what new stuff may cause your existing force any problems - that is you virtually assessing the game system because it's necessary to assess the interaction between the two codexes.
You just do it so naturally that you don't register it as a calculating assessment is all.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/29 23:51:52


Post by: ClockworkZion


 SirDonlad wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
so, looking back over your back-and-forth with crabblesworth your critique is easily surmised as "disliking it is off topic" first stated by ClockworkZion

Now hold on there. I didn't say disliking it was off-topic. I said refusing to even try the game out and then posting memes in response to people discussing the game was off topic. How do you have thoughts on the edition if you refuse to play the edition? I never said anyone had to like the edition, just that refusing to even try it is pretty shallow in how deep your "thoughts so far" can go.


I think you'll agree that in another context it is reasonable to assess a game system and it's merits/failings without playing it.
I think you should examine your own response; to the release of a new codex for example.
You go over it and see what new stuff may cause your existing force any problems - that is you virtually assessing the game system because it's necessary to assess the interaction between the two codexes.
You just do it so naturally that you don't register it as a calculating assessment is all.

Sure, we can talk about preferences and give untested opinions without every playing the game even once, and how we think rules feel, but theory only gets so far. Pretty sure I've seen people mention countless times over the years that mathhammer isn't everything after all, and the same applies here. To best know a game you should at least play it once (preferably more than once, but at least once).

Like I said, I'm not telling anyone to like or dislike the new edition, but I'd hoped that at least we'd see the discussion evolve past "I'm not even going to try because I think it'll be broken" to actually seeing how broken it is, or if paying for all those extra reactions through wargear sets you back in other ways instead.

Basically "thoughts so far" doesn't even go into the edition, it just stops at the door and without seeing the rest of what's inside claims it's not worth spending any more time on.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 00:00:59


Post by: ashlevrier


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
so, looking back over your back-and-forth with crabblesworth your critique is easily surmised as "disliking it is off topic" first stated by ClockworkZion

Now hold on there. I didn't say disliking it was off-topic. I said refusing to even try the game out and then posting memes in response to people discussing the game was off topic. How do you have thoughts on the edition if you refuse to play the edition? I never said anyone had to like the edition, just that refusing to even try it is pretty shallow in how deep your "thoughts so far" can go.


I think you'll agree that in another context it is reasonable to assess a game system and it's merits/failings without playing it.
I think you should examine your own response; to the release of a new codex for example.
You go over it and see what new stuff may cause your existing force any problems - that is you virtually assessing the game system because it's necessary to assess the interaction between the two codexes.
You just do it so naturally that you don't register it as a calculating assessment is all.

Sure, we can talk about preferences and give untested opinions without every playing the game even once, and how we think rules feel, but theory only gets so far. Pretty sure I've seen people mention countless times over the years that mathhammer isn't everything after all, and the same applies here. To best know a game you should at least play it once (preferably more than once, but at least once).

Like I said, I'm not telling anyone to like or dislike the new edition, but I'd hoped that at least we'd see the discussion evolve past "I'm not even going to try because I think it'll be broken" to actually seeing how broken it is, or if paying for all those extra reactions through wargear sets you back in other ways instead.

Basically "thoughts so far" doesn't even go into the edition, it just stops at the door and without seeing the rest of what's inside claims it's not worth spending any more time on.


i have played a few times and what i am trying to look into is a army of dreads. i feel like its nidzila on crack. but i need games to figur it out. squads of melta bombs and lots of plasma may be the fix. what do you feel about it.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 00:04:04


Post by: SirDonlad


I have vivid memories of the release of 8th edition and people saying how wrong i was that the 'deathstar' hadn't been eliminated and it had in fact become much larger.
i remember 3000 years ago...
and crabblesworth was there...

And Lo; the buff shall henceforth be an 'area effect' around unique characters, so sayeth the lords G.W. our gods.
Blessed shall be ALL units within such rapture; the lord saying thus- And shall benefited be all units partially within my light. amen.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 00:41:31


Post by: Gert


For god's sake stop being annoying and just try the game, you don't even have to buy the rules because they've been leaked online for weeks now.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 00:52:23


Post by: EldarExarch


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309


I mean you set the topic as "Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far" so posting memes and saying you refuse to even try HH 2.0 seems pretty off topic.

I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to games but I'm also looking forward to when GW finally shows me what Night Lord upgrade sprues will look like so I can decide how I want to approach building my models. Box finally came in yesterday after shipping almost a week after the release date.


I am doing the same thing, speaking of which, do we have any idea when those NL upgrade sprues will be coming out?

I also got the box and am brand new to HH so I really have no clue what is good or not, but I do know I want my squads with upgraded helms and Chainblades/glaives where possible. I also am thinking that I plan to run the Terror Assault Rites.

I liked the look of the display NL army that they have in the main rulebook, though again I have zero idea of it's effectiveness or not.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 01:00:38


Post by: Gert


Chainglaves are neat and bat helms are cool. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 01:22:52


Post by: Waaagh_Gonads


EldarExarch wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
"you need to address this if you're going to keep posting this stuff" Cough op cough

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804752.page#11352309


I mean you set the topic as "Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far" so posting memes and saying you refuse to even try HH 2.0 seems pretty off topic.

I'll be honest, I'm looking forward to games but I'm also looking forward to when GW finally shows me what Night Lord upgrade sprues will look like so I can decide how I want to approach building my models. Box finally came in yesterday after shipping almost a week after the release date.


I am doing the same thing, speaking of which, do we have any idea when those NL upgrade sprues will be coming out?

I also got the box and am brand new to HH so I really have no clue what is good or not, but I do know I want my squads with upgraded helms and Chainblades/glaives where possible. I also am thinking that I plan to run the Terror Assault Rites.

I liked the look of the display NL army that they have in the main rulebook, though again I have zero idea of it's effectiveness or not.



I expect that if they can keep up the current release schedule ALL legions will have thier upgrade kits within 4-6 months of game release. When will NLs be? No idea.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 01:27:21


Post by: ClockworkZion


 SirDonlad wrote:
I have vivid memories of the release of 8th edition and people saying how wrong i was that the 'deathstar' hadn't been eliminated and it had in fact become much larger.
i remember 3000 years ago...
and crabblesworth was there...

And Lo; the buff shall henceforth be an 'area effect' around unique characters, so sayeth the lords G.W. our gods.
Blessed shall be ALL units within such rapture; the lord saying thus- And shall benefited be all units partially within my light. amen.

I mean I was talking about Dorn's Moving Castle lists when C:SM dropped but pretend a lot of people weren't aware you could do messed up things with auras in 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Chainglaves are neat and bat helms are cool. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 02:03:08


Post by: SirDonlad


 ClockworkZion wrote:
Spoiler:
 SirDonlad wrote:
I have vivid memories of the release of 8th edition and people saying how wrong i was that the 'deathstar' hadn't been eliminated and it had in fact become much larger.
i remember 3000 years ago...
and crabblesworth was there...

And Lo; the buff shall henceforth be an 'area effect' around unique characters, so sayeth the lords G.W. our gods.
Blessed shall be ALL units within such rapture; the lord saying thus- And shall benefited be all units partially within my light. amen.

I mean I was talking about Dorn's Moving Castle lists when C:SM dropped but pretend a lot of people weren't aware you could do messed up things with auras in 8th.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Chainglaves are neat and bat helms are cool. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more
.


A whole bunch of people believed that at the time; here's one example i found easily
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/725647.page#9433026

in other news:
Can we get some recognition for when hyperbole becomes reality here please? https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/725647.page#9359481


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 02:26:35


Post by: EldarExarch



I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more.


Could you explain that more?

Chainblades/glaives give +1/+2 str along with ap3 and shred like Claws but have Breaching instead of Rending. I believe they are both the same pts at 10 (unless you go dual claws at 15). Claws are also Specialist Weapons whereas Chain weapons are not.

Is Rending just that much better with the extra roll against Vehicles?

Side note: Definitely plan to have many Lightning Claws too.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 03:40:30


Post by: ClockworkZion


 SirDonlad wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Spoiler:
 SirDonlad wrote:
I have vivid memories of the release of 8th edition and people saying how wrong i was that the 'deathstar' hadn't been eliminated and it had in fact become much larger.
i remember 3000 years ago...
and crabblesworth was there...

And Lo; the buff shall henceforth be an 'area effect' around unique characters, so sayeth the lords G.W. our gods.
Blessed shall be ALL units within such rapture; the lord saying thus- And shall benefited be all units partially within my light. amen.

I mean I was talking about Dorn's Moving Castle lists when C:SM dropped but pretend a lot of people weren't aware you could do messed up things with auras in 8th.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Chainglaves are neat and bat helms are cool. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more
.


A whole bunch of people believed that at the time; here's one example i found easily
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/725647.page#9433026

in other news:
Can we get some recognition for when hyperbole becomes reality here please? https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/725647.page#9359481

30k didn't move to 8th though.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 03:52:20


Post by: Backspacehacker


 ClockworkZion wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Spoiler:
 SirDonlad wrote:
I have vivid memories of the release of 8th edition and people saying how wrong i was that the 'deathstar' hadn't been eliminated and it had in fact become much larger.
i remember 3000 years ago...
and crabblesworth was there...

And Lo; the buff shall henceforth be an 'area effect' around unique characters, so sayeth the lords G.W. our gods.
Blessed shall be ALL units within such rapture; the lord saying thus- And shall benefited be all units partially within my light. amen.

I mean I was talking about Dorn's Moving Castle lists when C:SM dropped but pretend a lot of people weren't aware you could do messed up things with auras in 8th.

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Chainglaves are neat and bat helms are cool. Ignore anyone who tells you otherwise.

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more
.


A whole bunch of people believed that at the time; here's one example i found easily
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/725647.page#9433026

in other news:
Can we get some recognition for when hyperbole becomes reality here please? https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/725647.page#9359481

30k didn't move to 8th though.


Thank what ever deity you believe in for that.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 04:05:45


Post by: ClockworkZion


EldarExarch wrote:

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more.


Could you explain that more?

Chainblades/glaives give +1/+2 str along with ap3 and shred like Claws but have Breaching instead of Rending. I believe they are both the same pts at 10 (unless you go dual claws at 15). Claws are also Specialist Weapons whereas Chain weapons are not.

Is Rending just that much better with the extra roll against Vehicles?

Side note: Definitely plan to have many Lightning Claws too.

Chainglaives are two-handed though so no bonus attacks for two-weapons at all.

I forgot that both weapon types had shred though, which opens some options since that means re-rolls to wound are great, especially when you can trigger a +1 to wound by out numbering for Night Lords.

Probably help if I just cracked open my Liber Hereticus since it was delivered this evening.

Alright, Breaching(6+) from chainblades/chainglaives is resolved at AP2 as long as the target has a wounds characteristic. Now this triggers on a 5+ as long as you get a +1 to wound bonus from the NL Legion trait.

Meanwhile Rending(6+) from lighting claws automatically wounds as long as you roll the value on shown and that is resolved at AP2 (against vehicles you also get a bonus D3 for your penetration roll). With the NL Legion trait you can potentially get this off on a 5+ as well.

So what I'm seeing is we want both. Chainblades will most often be hitting at S5, Chainglaives at S6 and both go to AP2 on a 6+. Lighting Claws will be at S4, but auto-wound at AP2 on a 6+. All three of these re-roll wounds. Chainglaives can't gain bonus attacks for having a pistol, and Lighting Claws only gain a bonus attack if you have two of them.

And basically I can't decide which I like more. Maybe chainglaives on characters but lighting claws on sergeants? It's a tough pick unless someone has some ideas on I'm not grocking yet.

Though now that I've got a better idea how these all work properly, I think mixing in a power fist or a chainfist into some units (like Terminators) will be a must.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 05:13:20


Post by: CadianSgtBob


 Backspacehacker wrote:
Ill be honestly i never understood the hatred of IGOUGO, so many games operate off it, and its been fine for the last what 30 years?


It hasn't been fine for the past 30 years, it's been a bad system. It's just that as time has passed and more games have experimented with alternative systems we've figured out better ways of doing things. GW is just stuck in the past and refusing to adapt.

If you think removing IGOUGO puts the game in a better place, you are just trading one set of problems for another.


The problems with non-IGOUGO systems are highly overstated, often by people who have never played any non-GW games and make claims about how alternating activation games "always work" that are indisputably not true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I guess you didn't see my post mocking the reaction system for only allowing a tank to drive out of melta range if no other tank is currently attempting to do it? The reaction system is stupid, it's just marginally less terrible than IGOUGO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SirDonlad wrote:
consider: 'chess'


Um, what? Chess is not IGOUGO, it's a textbook example of an alternating activation game. You alternate moving one piece at a time, you don't have each player move all of their pieces before passing the turn back to the other player.

if we want to be philosophical about it, actual combat is IGOUGO at a strategic level


It really isn't. At no point in actual combat do your units wait patiently and do nothing as they are slaughtered because it's not their turn to act. Real combat at a strategic level is a simultaneous activation game with hidden orders issued at the start of each turn.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 06:16:43


Post by: Albertorius


 SirDonlad wrote:
Yes, real war is IGOUGO.


That is a... bold statement. To say the least.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 06:41:42


Post by: Gadzilla666


 ClockworkZion wrote:
Spoiler:
EldarExarch wrote:

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more.


Could you explain that more?

Chainblades/glaives give +1/+2 str along with ap3 and shred like Claws but have Breaching instead of Rending. I believe they are both the same pts at 10 (unless you go dual claws at 15). Claws are also Specialist Weapons whereas Chain weapons are not.

Is Rending just that much better with the extra roll against Vehicles?

Side note: Definitely plan to have many Lightning Claws too.

Chainglaives are two-handed though so no bonus attacks for two-weapons at all.

I forgot that both weapon types had shred though, which opens some options since that means re-rolls to wound are great, especially when you can trigger a +1 to wound by out numbering for Night Lords.

Probably help if I just cracked open my Liber Hereticus since it was delivered this evening.

Alright, Breaching(6+) from chainblades/chainglaives is resolved at AP2 as long as the target has a wounds characteristic. Now this triggers on a 5+ as long as you get a +1 to wound bonus from the NL Legion trait.

Meanwhile Rending(6+) from lighting claws automatically wounds as long as you roll the value on shown and that is resolved at AP2 (against vehicles you also get a bonus D3 for your penetration roll). With the NL Legion trait you can potentially get this off on a 5+ as well.

So what I'm seeing is we want both. Chainblades will most often be hitting at S5, Chainglaives at S6 and both go to AP2 on a 6+. Lighting Claws will be at S4, but auto-wound at AP2 on a 6+. All three of these re-roll wounds. Chainglaives can't gain bonus attacks for having a pistol, and Lighting Claws only gain a bonus attack if you have two of them.

And basically I can't decide which I like more. Maybe chainglaives on characters but lighting claws on sergeants? It's a tough pick unless someone has some ideas on I'm not grocking yet.

Though now that I've got a better idea how these all work properly, I think mixing in a power fist or a chainfist into some units (like Terminators) will be a must.

Yes, they're all good. I finally got a chance to sit down and fully digest my copy of Liber Hereticus today. And all of our rules are good. Everything. A Talent For Murder, Preysight, Bloody Murder. Terror Squads and Night Raptors are what elite Night Lords should have always been.

The best part, for me, is that we can give Preysight to everything. Even our vehicles. We couldn't get Night Vision on anything besides infantry in both 3.5 and Traitor Legions. Finally our vehicles won't have to light themselves up with searchlights in a night fight. The 8th Legion will finally be able to fight how they're supposed to: in total darkness.

These are the best rules we've ever had. You picked a great time to sign up, Zion.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 07:16:30


Post by: blood reaper


 Albertorius wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
Yes, real war is IGOUGO.


That is a... bold statement. To say the least.


Yeah famously during WW2 no one ever fired simultaneously. German and Soviet troops would allow one another to take shots before the other side fired back (that is unless they failed a morale check).


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 12:12:25


Post by: godardc


I'll only be able to play some games in the second part of august, which is a shame ! But, despite me being against change especially when it's not necessary like this, I'm really curious and in a hast of testing it. I'm very interested to get some info about how your games / lists have changed since the release ?
I'm very sad my elite units lost their jet pack and got artificer armor instead, obviously not freely...


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 12:15:12


Post by: SirDonlad


CadianSgtBob wrote:
Spoiler:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
Ill be honestly i never understood the hatred of IGOUGO, so many games operate off it, and its been fine for the last what 30 years?


It hasn't been fine for the past 30 years, it's been a bad system. It's just that as time has passed and more games have experimented with alternative systems we've figured out better ways of doing things. GW is just stuck in the past and refusing to adapt.

If you think removing IGOUGO puts the game in a better place, you are just trading one set of problems for another.


The problems with non-IGOUGO systems are highly overstated, often by people who have never played any non-GW games and make claims about how alternating activation games "always work" that are indisputably not true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I guess you didn't see my post mocking the reaction system for only allowing a tank to drive out of melta range if no other tank is currently attempting to do it? The reaction system is stupid, it's just marginally less terrible than IGOUGO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SirDonlad wrote:
consider: 'chess'


Um, what? Chess is not IGOUGO, it's a textbook example of an alternating activation game. You alternate moving one piece at a time, you don't have each player move all of their pieces before passing the turn back to the other player.

if we want to be philosophical about it, actual combat is IGOUGO at a strategic level


It really isn't. At no point in actual combat do your units wait patiently and do nothing as they are slaughtered because it's not their turn to act. Real combat at a strategic level is a simultaneous activation game with hidden orders issued at the start of each turn.


Last time i played chess you didn't activate every peice you control per turn.
you select a piece during your turn and move or attack with it.
then the opponent selects a piece...
IGOUGO.

and yes, at a strategic level war is chess with artillery.
you move and attack, their batteries counter-fire or move
IGOUGO.

even during 'simultaneous fire' there are clear stages when each side has to choose to either move or shoot.
The timing becomes incredibly precise and the turn time is very small, but those moments are still there (asymmetric firing rates for example)


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 13:03:58


Post by: lord_blackfang


Frankly I'm just bored with alternating activations, everybody and their dog outside GW has been doing it for 10+ years straight now with barely any innovation. You can tout it as "superior" to IGOUGO all you want, it's not any more interesting or enjoyable to play at this point. I look forward to IGOUGO with a bit of reaction spice for a change of pace.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 13:13:34


Post by: SirDonlad


I think you hit the nail on the head about 'pace' of games.
IGOUGO gives you time to ponder while the opponent has their turn.
alternating activation keeps you occupied more consistently over a span of time which i go for when i'm feeling it (adeptus titanicus, IK:renegade) but i like the tactical ponder because i feel like i'm actually being social while i play.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 13:30:53


Post by: Albertorius


 SirDonlad wrote:

Last time i played chess you didn't activate every peice you control per turn.
you select a piece during your turn and move or attack with it.
then the opponent selects a piece...
IGOUGO.

By that definition, Bolt Action is IGOUGO. You understand that's not how things are, right?

the actual definition of IGOUGO is "In my turn, I make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in my whole army. In your turn, you make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in your whole army. Rinse and repeat".

Alternate activation, OTOH, most usually mean "you select a piece during your turn and move or attack with it. then the opponent selects a piece...".

So, no, neither chess nor Bolt Action are IGOUGO. So... yeah. Alternate activation.

and yes, at a strategic level war is chess with artillery.
you move and attack, their batteries counter-fire or move
IGOUGO.

even during 'simultaneous fire' there are clear stages when each side has to choose to either move or shoot.
The timing becomes incredibly precise and the turn time is very small, but those moments are still there (asymmetric firing rates for example)

Again, no. That simply makes it abundantly clear you don't know what IGOUGO means.

There is a case to be made that the term IGOUGO itself isn't really all that clear, but still.

EDIT: Just as an addicional case in point, Easy E did a quite thorough post of the usually defined kinds of games:

Spoiler:
 Easy E wrote:
Usually IGOUGO is contrasted with:

Alternate Activation: One unit/model activates, does its thing, and then the opponent chooses a unit and does stuff. Deadzone and Void.

Reaction Activation: A player activates and does stuff, until the opponent tries to "interrupt" or "react" and take over activation. Force-on-Force of Infinity

Activation by Phase: One player does all their movement, then the next player does their movement, then the first player does all their shooting, etc. Play alternates by game phase between players. I can't think of an example right now.

Bid System: Players bid resources to try and gain the ability to activate a unit. Men of Bronze

Chit Draw/Random Activation: A player pulls a marker out of a bog/rolls a dice, or draws a card which says which units can activate. This allows you to trade-off and not know who will get to do something next. Bolt Action

Initiative Order: The order in which units activate is dictated by the turn sequence or a stat rank. I.e. Tanks activate before infantry. Once all the appropriate unit types activate and do stuff, then units further down the list can activate. Dux Bellorum

Proceed until Failed: The player chooses a unit and makes a command check. If passed, the unit can act. If failed play turns over to the opponent. Blood Bowl, Warmaster, Lion Rampant, and the Warlord mass battle games.

Those are some examples of other activation methods. The world is full of them. As yo play more games, you will see there are many more ways to handle activation than IGOUGO.

IGOUGO is not inherently bad and other systems good. It all depends on how you use it.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 13:31:23


Post by: EldarExarch


 ClockworkZion wrote:
EldarExarch wrote:

I'm torn between chainglaives and lighting claws. Both look like a lot of fun, though Lighting Claws probably benefit from the Legion trait a bit more.


Could you explain that more?

Chainblades/glaives give +1/+2 str along with ap3 and shred like Claws but have Breaching instead of Rending. I believe they are both the same pts at 10 (unless you go dual claws at 15). Claws are also Specialist Weapons whereas Chain weapons are not.

Is Rending just that much better with the extra roll against Vehicles?

Side note: Definitely plan to have many Lightning Claws too.

Chainglaives are two-handed though so no bonus attacks for two-weapons at all.

I forgot that both weapon types had shred though, which opens some options since that means re-rolls to wound are great, especially when you can trigger a +1 to wound by out numbering for Night Lords.

Probably help if I just cracked open my Liber Hereticus since it was delivered this evening.

Alright, Breaching(6+) from chainblades/chainglaives is resolved at AP2 as long as the target has a wounds characteristic. Now this triggers on a 5+ as long as you get a +1 to wound bonus from the NL Legion trait.

Meanwhile Rending(6+) from lighting claws automatically wounds as long as you roll the value on shown and that is resolved at AP2 (against vehicles you also get a bonus D3 for your penetration roll). With the NL Legion trait you can potentially get this off on a 5+ as well.

So what I'm seeing is we want both. Chainblades will most often be hitting at S5, Chainglaives at S6 and both go to AP2 on a 6+. Lighting Claws will be at S4, but auto-wound at AP2 on a 6+. All three of these re-roll wounds. Chainglaives can't gain bonus attacks for having a pistol, and Lighting Claws only gain a bonus attack if you have two of them.

And basically I can't decide which I like more. Maybe chainglaives on characters but lighting claws on sergeants? It's a tough pick unless someone has some ideas on I'm not grocking yet.

Though now that I've got a better idea how these all work properly, I think mixing in a power fist or a chainfist into some units (like Terminators) will be a must.


Thank you thank you, exactly along the lines of my thoughts.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 13:51:10


Post by: Tittliewinks22


My core gaming group consists of me (been playing since 2005), a friend (joined at end of 5th), and 2 newer guys who started in 9th.

We've yet to get a game in, but the two newer guys have been asking a ton of questions why GW got rid of things in 9th that 30k is now doing (example armor facings and all or nothing AP). They both seem much more positive and have said the game seems like it has more role play elements baked-in and that 9th feels a lot more like a competitive game. I feel somewhat vindicated since these have been my thoughts for a while now and having new players who have no nostalgia come to the same conclusions I have from just reading the rules is great. Our first game is this weekend and it's going to be exciting!

As for the reaction system debate going on here. I think it's the most well balanced version across all 3 games (40k, 30k, AoS).
-40k's stratagem system is too bloated, requires a lot of book keeping and held together with band-aid patches.
-AoS system is decent, but there are some "force multiplier" CA's that could probably use a culling and I'm not a fan of an external resource to track (cp).
-30k's system of 3(6) core reactions +1 advance faction reaction is so much less to remember, and since there's no "resource" generation system tied to it, there seems to be less avenues of exploitation.

A game at the scale 30k (40k and AoS as well) would probably become too cumbersome with a pure Alternating Activation system, though a detachment based AA system with casualty removal at the end of a turn seems like the best approach to AA at this scale. (RIP Apocalypse).

The only major gripes our group has from the launch of HH 2.0 has been the lack of product availability. Hopefully that's a good sign that the game out-sold expectations and we're in for major support in the years to come!


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 14:50:19


Post by: SirDonlad


 Albertorius wrote:

By that definition, Bolt Action is IGOUGO. You understand that's not how things are, right?

by that definition a game of chess is a single turn. but it isn't.

 Albertorius wrote:
the actual definition of IGOUGO is "In my turn, I make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in my whole army. In your turn, you make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in your whole army. Rinse and repeat".

No, thats a whole bunch of bloat to adapt the premise to 40k nomenclature.

The actual definition is "a two player game in which one player completes a turn as defined by the rules after which the opposing player completes one turn as defined by the rules; this process repeats until a predefined win state is achieved, as defined by the rules"

Snakes and ladders is IGOUGO.
Hungry-hungry hippos is concurrent turns.
Alternating activation is a sub-mechanic to IGOUGO.

 Albertorius wrote:
you don't know what IGOUGO means.

 Albertorius wrote:
the term IGOUGO itself isn't really all that clear


umm...


 Albertorius wrote:
EDIT: Just as an addicional case in point, Easy E did a quite thorough post of the usually defined kinds of games:

Spoiler:
 Easy E wrote:
Usually IGOUGO is contrasted with:

Alternate Activation: One unit/model activates, does its thing, and then the opponent chooses a unit and does stuff. Deadzone and Void.

Reaction Activation: A player activates and does stuff, until the opponent tries to "interrupt" or "react" and take over activation. Force-on-Force of Infinity

Activation by Phase: One player does all their movement, then the next player does their movement, then the first player does all their shooting, etc. Play alternates by game phase between players. I can't think of an example right now.

Bid System: Players bid resources to try and gain the ability to activate a unit. Men of Bronze

Chit Draw/Random Activation: A player pulls a marker out of a bog/rolls a dice, or draws a card which says which units can activate. This allows you to trade-off and not know who will get to do something next. Bolt Action

Initiative Order: The order in which units activate is dictated by the turn sequence or a stat rank. I.e. Tanks activate before infantry. Once all the appropriate unit types activate and do stuff, then units further down the list can activate. Dux Bellorum

Proceed until Failed: The player chooses a unit and makes a command check. If passed, the unit can act. If failed play turns over to the opponent. Blood Bowl, Warmaster, Lion Rampant, and the Warlord mass battle games.


Those are all sub-mechanics to 'liven up' IGOUGO.

 Albertorius wrote:
IGOUGO is not inherently bad and other systems good. It all depends on how you use it.


Yeah, agreed. as i posted earlier everyone actually likes it they just don't realise it yet.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 15:09:18


Post by: Tittliewinks22


 SirDonlad wrote:
Spoiler:
 Albertorius wrote:

By that definition, Bolt Action is IGOUGO. You understand that's not how things are, right?

by that definition a game of chess is a single turn. but it isn't.

 Albertorius wrote:
the actual definition of IGOUGO is "In my turn, I make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in my whole army. In your turn, you make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in your whole army. Rinse and repeat".

No, thats a whole bunch of bloat to adapt the premise to 40k nomenclature.

The actual definition is "a two player game in which one player completes a turn as defined by the rules after which the opposing player completes one turn as defined by the rules; this process repeats until a predefined win state is achieved, as defined by the rules"

Snakes and ladders is IGOUGO.
Hungry-hungry hippos is concurrent turns.
Alternating activation is a sub-mechanic to IGOUGO.

 Albertorius wrote:
you don't know what IGOUGO means.

 Albertorius wrote:
the term IGOUGO itself isn't really all that clear


umm...


 Albertorius wrote:
EDIT: Just as an addicional case in point, Easy E did a quite thorough post of the usually defined kinds of games:

 Easy E wrote:
Usually IGOUGO is contrasted with:

Alternate Activation: One unit/model activates, does its thing, and then the opponent chooses a unit and does stuff. Deadzone and Void.

Reaction Activation: A player activates and does stuff, until the opponent tries to "interrupt" or "react" and take over activation. Force-on-Force of Infinity

Activation by Phase: One player does all their movement, then the next player does their movement, then the first player does all their shooting, etc. Play alternates by game phase between players. I can't think of an example right now.

Bid System: Players bid resources to try and gain the ability to activate a unit. Men of Bronze

Chit Draw/Random Activation: A player pulls a marker out of a bog/rolls a dice, or draws a card which says which units can activate. This allows you to trade-off and not know who will get to do something next. Bolt Action

Initiative Order: The order in which units activate is dictated by the turn sequence or a stat rank. I.e. Tanks activate before infantry. Once all the appropriate unit types activate and do stuff, then units further down the list can activate. Dux Bellorum

Proceed until Failed: The player chooses a unit and makes a command check. If passed, the unit can act. If failed play turns over to the opponent. Blood Bowl, Warmaster, Lion Rampant, and the Warlord mass battle games.


Those are all sub-mechanics to 'liven up' IGOUGO.

 Albertorius wrote:
IGOUGO is not inherently bad and other systems good. It all depends on how you use it.


Yeah, agreed. as i posted earlier everyone actually likes it they just don't realise it yet.


Why has the validity of AA in a large scale wargame devolved into semantics about IGOUGO?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 15:22:54


Post by: SirDonlad


Usual forum stuff.
Someone doesn't like something; someone else does like the thing.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 15:23:52


Post by: Backspacehacker


Tittliewinks22 wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
Spoiler:
 Albertorius wrote:

By that definition, Bolt Action is IGOUGO. You understand that's not how things are, right?

by that definition a game of chess is a single turn. but it isn't.

 Albertorius wrote:
the actual definition of IGOUGO is "In my turn, I make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in my whole army. In your turn, you make all of the moves/actions with all of the units in your whole army. Rinse and repeat".

No, thats a whole bunch of bloat to adapt the premise to 40k nomenclature.

The actual definition is "a two player game in which one player completes a turn as defined by the rules after which the opposing player completes one turn as defined by the rules; this process repeats until a predefined win state is achieved, as defined by the rules"

Snakes and ladders is IGOUGO.
Hungry-hungry hippos is concurrent turns.
Alternating activation is a sub-mechanic to IGOUGO.

 Albertorius wrote:
you don't know what IGOUGO means.



 Albertorius wrote:
the term IGOUGO itself isn't really all that clear


umm...


 Albertorius wrote:
EDIT: Just as an addicional case in point, Easy E did a quite thorough post of the usually defined kinds of games:

 Easy E wrote:
Usually IGOUGO is contrasted with:

Alternate Activation: One unit/model activates, does its thing, and then the opponent chooses a unit and does stuff. Deadzone and Void.

Reaction Activation: A player activates and does stuff, until the opponent tries to "interrupt" or "react" and take over activation. Force-on-Force of Infinity

Activation by Phase: One player does all their movement, then the next player does their movement, then the first player does all their shooting, etc. Play alternates by game phase between players. I can't think of an example right now.

Bid System: Players bid resources to try and gain the ability to activate a unit. Men of Bronze

Chit Draw/Random Activation: A player pulls a marker out of a bog/rolls a dice, or draws a card which says which units can activate. This allows you to trade-off and not know who will get to do something next. Bolt Action

Initiative Order: The order in which units activate is dictated by the turn sequence or a stat rank. I.e. Tanks activate before infantry. Once all the appropriate unit types activate and do stuff, then units further down the list can activate. Dux Bellorum

Proceed until Failed: The player chooses a unit and makes a command check. If passed, the unit can act. If failed play turns over to the opponent. Blood Bowl, Warmaster, Lion Rampant, and the Warlord mass battle games.


Those are all sub-mechanics to 'liven up' IGOUGO.

 Albertorius wrote:
IGOUGO is not inherently bad and other systems good. It all depends on how you use it.


Yeah, agreed. as i posted earlier everyone actually likes it they just don't realise it yet.


Why has the validity of AA in a large scale wargame devolved into semantics about IGOUGO?


Because you dont understand. some one was WRONG on the INTERNET!


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 15:39:18


Post by: Albertorius


 SirDonlad wrote:
No, thats a whole bunch of bloat to adapt the premise to 40k nomenclature.

The actual definition is "a two player game in which one player completes a turn as defined by the rules after which the opposing player completes one turn as defined by the rules; this process repeats until a predefined win state is achieved, as defined by the rules"

You keep saying that, but the only one who thinks that is you.

But seeing there's a fundamental difference of definition here, I don't feel continuing the discussion has any merit.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 15:50:03


Post by: SirDonlad


That will be the definition you'll get given at a university level.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 16:20:12


Post by: Albertorius


 SirDonlad wrote:
That will be the definition you'll get given at a university level.


As soon as there was a "gaming university", surely.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 16:32:06


Post by: SirDonlad


There was a 'computer gaming design' course at my uni that was regarded very highly - a bunch of big named developer houses involved etc.

They go over things from the basic principles of 'play' and why humans do it, all the way through programming tools and into machine code, binary maths, bitwise operations etc.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 16:43:37


Post by: Tittliewinks22


 SirDonlad wrote:
There was a 'computer gaming design' course at my uni that was regarded very highly - a bunch of big named developer houses involved etc.

They go over things from the basic principles of 'play' and why humans do it, all the way through programming tools and into machine code, binary maths, bitwise operations etc.


You got early access to Liber: Mechanicum???


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 16:52:27


Post by: SirDonlad


Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Spoiler:
 SirDonlad wrote:
There was a 'computer gaming design' course at my uni that was regarded very highly - a bunch of big named developer houses involved etc.

They go over things from the basic principles of 'play' and why humans do it, all the way through programming tools and into machine code, binary maths, bitwise operations etc.


You got early access to Liber: Mechanicum???


The IRL version, yeah..

Spoiler:


Am i going nuts or does it feel like the electropreists are getting a renaming with this new unit 'Arcuitor Magisterum'?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 16:53:58


Post by: Backspacehacker


Tittliewinks22 wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:
There was a 'computer gaming design' course at my uni that was regarded very highly - a bunch of big named developer houses involved etc.

They go over things from the basic principles of 'play' and why humans do it, all the way through programming tools and into machine code, binary maths, bitwise operations etc.


You got early access to Liber: Mechanicum???


Its not been fully leaked yet, the most we have is the unit index sheet, and a phase 1 draft copy, supposedly.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 19:12:02


Post by: Togusa


Has anyone out there come across any good STLs that would be a good stand in for a Disintegrator Pistol/Rifle? As far as I can tell, there isn't any official bits for them.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 19:30:12


Post by: Albertorius


 Togusa wrote:
Has anyone out there come across any good STLs that would be a good stand in for a Disintegrator Pistol/Rifle? As far as I can tell, there isn't any official bits for them.


Search for "Eradicator Gun" at Cults.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 19:47:56


Post by: Backspacehacker


 Togusa wrote:
Has anyone out there come across any good STLs that would be a good stand in for a Disintegrator Pistol/Rifle? As far as I can tell, there isn't any official bits for them.


pop goes the monkey just put out some to buy runs of.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 20:07:09


Post by: Togusa


 Albertorius wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
Has anyone out there come across any good STLs that would be a good stand in for a Disintegrator Pistol/Rifle? As far as I can tell, there isn't any official bits for them.


Search for "Eradicator Gun" at Cults.


Wow. I searched Cults up and down yesterday and never came across these. Thanks!


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 20:44:08


Post by: CadianSgtBob


 SirDonlad wrote:
The actual definition is "a two player game in which one player completes a turn as defined by the rules after which the opposing player completes one turn as defined by the rules; this process repeats until a predefined win state is achieved, as defined by the rules"


Um, no. That can be your personal definition but in a wargaming context that is not what IGOUGO means. The context of wargaming IGOUGO means you act with your entire force, then your opponent acts with their entire force, repeat until the game ends.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Frankly I'm just bored with alternating activations, everybody and their dog outside GW has been doing it for 10+ years straight now with barely any innovation. You can tout it as "superior" to IGOUGO all you want, it's not any more interesting or enjoyable to play at this point. I look forward to IGOUGO with a bit of reaction spice for a change of pace.


Maybe the fact that GW is the only one still clinging to IGOUGO should be a hint that it's a bad mechanic?

 SirDonlad wrote:
I think you hit the nail on the head about 'pace' of games.
IGOUGO gives you time to ponder while the opponent has their turn.
alternating activation keeps you occupied more consistently over a span of time which i go for when i'm feeling it (adeptus titanicus, IK:renegade) but i like the tactical ponder because i feel like i'm actually being social while i play.


And it creates that pondering time by stripping out most of the strategic depth from the game and reducing it to an exchange of attack dice until someone runs out of models. IGOGUO gives you nothing meaningful to ponder but lets you ponder it for half an hour while your opponent finishes their turn.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 21:25:37


Post by: lord_blackfang


 SirDonlad wrote:
There was a 'computer gaming design' course at my uni that was regarded very highly - a bunch of big named developer houses involved etc.

They go over things from the basic principles of 'play' and why humans do it, all the way through programming tools and into machine code, binary maths, bitwise operations etc.


Ah yes the classic hubris of "this is what my professor said, so decades of real world useage are invalid now and we're gonna use my made up definition"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
Maybe the fact that GW is the only one still clinging to IGOUGO should be a hint that it's a bad mechanic?


Ah, you're one of the "my personal preferences are objective scientific fact" people, gotcha. Off to the ignore list.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 21:38:06


Post by: CadianSgtBob


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Ah, you're one of the "my personal preferences are objective scientific fact" people, gotcha. Off to the ignore list.


Ah, so you're one of those people who don't understand "it's not an airport, you don't have to announce your departure" and consider the ignore list a tool for winning internet arguments. Gotcha.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 21:50:54


Post by: Togusa


Could we please take the IGOUGO crap to its own thread...this argument has crossed the lines of being old and is now just straight up infuriating. Especially when it grows a new hydra head in literally every other GW rules discussion on the whole dang board. For years.

Jebus mates get a hobby or something.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 21:58:50


Post by: SirDonlad


Time to give my opinion on heresy 2.0.
"Where did the Ordo Reductor go?"

On the mechanicum front i saw that we basically get to do overwatch as it was in 4th.
If i knew i had my artillery formations still that would be great.
But seriously as an Ordo Reductor player i'm getting stiffed here based on the index of the liber mechanicum.

Ordo Reductor Artillery Tank isn't in there any more, same with archmagos reductor, Inmar Satarael, Archmagos Draycavac, classic imperial knights...

This has the feel of when they released book 3 and i had three land raiders i wasn't able to use any more. The Ordo Reductor LR was awesome.

I have to see what the three pages of "The Orders of High Techno Arcana" contain in case they have hidden Reductor and Cybernetica in there but i don't have a good feeling about it.

maybe they'll throw us a bone and let us stea.. >ahem< 'requisition' anything imperial?

hopes and dreams to end the nightmare please.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 23:05:01


Post by: Gert


Knights and characters are in their own section on the contents page, except Caleb Decima for some reason.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 23:09:02


Post by: SirDonlad


 Gert wrote:
Knights and characters are in their own section on the contents page, except Caleb Decima for some reason.

Are you talking about one of the other books? i'm confused.
this is the contents page i've been going by so far


I just noticed the Macrocarid Explorator is gone too.

Man, the more you look the more you see how much is missing.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 23:14:30


Post by: Gert


16 pages for Knights my guy and 5 for Persona Schismata. Also GW confirmed that Knights would be in the Mechanicum book.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 23:28:18


Post by: Backspacehacker


 Gert wrote:
16 pages for Knights my guy and 5 for Persona Schismata. Also GW confirmed that Knights would be in the Mechanicum book.


The only thing im wondering is if the dominus knight is in there. the rough draft leaks dont have them listed.

The other thing that was not listed that has me super sad/worried, is it looks like they got rid of the pilot system which is really unfortunate because i LOVED the pilot system for HH 1.0 like OMG that made them so amazingly fun.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 23:39:53


Post by: ArcaneHorror


I'm hoping we get the daemon pdf soon so that the ability to take them in Word Bearers Dark Brethren army is available.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 23:49:49


Post by: SirDonlad


 Gert wrote:
16 pages for Knights my guy and 5 for Persona Schismata. Also GW confirmed that Knights would be in the Mechanicum book.

ah, didn't realize they were dumping characters there.
I should have been able to tell that from the title of the book.
i suppose they'll dump the secutarii hoplites peltasts and axiarch in with the imperial knights but then i don't understand why the knight moirax are in the liber mechanicum

anyone got any lore memories of an "arctuitor magisterium"?



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/06/30 23:52:47


Post by: Gert


 SirDonlad wrote:
i suppose they'll dump the secutarii hoplites peltasts and axiarch in with the imperial knights but then i don't understand why the knight moirax are in the liber mechanicum

They'll likely be in the Titan Legions section.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 00:20:07


Post by: SirDonlad


yeah, you're probably right.

I'm going to have to wait till i get hold of a copy.

might have to make a thread to cover all the Ordo Reductor flavour which is being cut.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 01:14:25


Post by: ClockworkZion


I have to stand corrected for a post I made earlier: Talent For Murder doesn't let you rend or breach easier.

So much to learn and so easy to miss stuff.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 01:36:57


Post by: Backspacehacker


I just want pilots


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 12:58:00


Post by: lord_blackfang


Would someone be so kind as to list which units from the Mechanicum book can be fielded in some way by Marine Legions?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 13:21:04


Post by: Gert


NVM misread.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 13:50:43


Post by: Sherrypie


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Would someone be so kind as to list which units from the Mechanicum book can be fielded in some way by Marine Legions?


There are Legion Consuls for leading Thallax and Castellax maniples. Most legions can ally in optional Mechanicum detachments.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 14:38:19


Post by: lord_blackfang


 Sherrypie wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Would someone be so kind as to list which units from the Mechanicum book can be fielded in some way by Marine Legions?


There are Legion Consuls for leading Thallax and Castellax maniples. Most legions can ally in optional Mechanicum detachments.


Oooh thanks I failed to spot the non-Marine entries in the ally matrix. Time to "buy" some Vulturax.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 17:43:20


Post by: Togusa


So is the Legion Sabre coming to plastic as well? It's listed as completely sold out and has been so for several months at this point. Some folks on various net forums are claiming that pictures of the tank in the new material and books look different enough that it may be getting the plastic treatment? Thoughts?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 19:11:43


Post by: Racerguy180


It would be weird that they would debut the model(2yrs ago?) make a resin mould then promptly replace it with plastic.

But I'd be all down for a couple Sabres to supplement my Kratos & Predators.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 19:24:01


Post by: Togusa


Racerguy180 wrote:
It would be weird that they would debut the model(2yrs ago?) make a resin mould then promptly replace it with plastic.

But I'd be all down for a couple Sabres to supplement my Kratos & Predators.


This was my thought as well, but the whole kit hasn't been available for some time. Personally I'd like to see the entire line from the top down come to plastic.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 19:30:39


Post by: Crablezworth


 Togusa wrote:
So is the Legion Sabre coming to plastic as well? It's listed as completely sold out and has been so for several months at this point. Some folks on various net forums are claiming that pictures of the tank in the new material and books look different enough that it may be getting the plastic treatment? Thoughts?


Probably on it's way at some point, for now, with it being hard to come by, if one were to perhaps look up the word "shiv" on various stl related websites they may find certain things that might work in the interim.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 19:57:57


Post by: RaptorusRex


Bought my first kit off Ebay for my Sons of Horus - a 10-man squad of Mk VI. The overall idea of this army is going to be a freshly raised, Inductii formation of mechanized infantry and armor. So, I'm thinking Armored Spearhead.

Spoiler:
The 142th Armored Battalion was an independent armored unit of the Sons of Horus legion. It was composed primarily of Inductii newbloods, raw recruits pressed into defense of their home. Raised on Cthonia during the siege of that world by the VIIth Legion, Imperial Fists, the 142th showed great valor and courage in the line of duty. Ultimately, however, the formation was destroyed in a massive battle of armor and mechanized infantry on the Kurs volcanic plains of its homeworld.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 20:17:55


Post by: Gert


I think it's quite neat that a lot of new people are going to be getting into HH and the newest release also happens to be the newest set of armour. It's sort of like they're new recruits being given shiny new gear.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 20:39:47


Post by: lord_blackfang


I wanna field a bunch of Sabres too, a 14" move tank sounds abour right for White Scars. But I'm not too fussed, it's so small it can be printed in one piece even on a regular size resin printer.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 20:47:16


Post by: ArcaneHorror


I'm new, but I don't want anything to do with Mark VI. It's Marks III and IV all the way.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 21:44:09


Post by: Arcanis161


Give me Assault Marines and plastic MK II and I will be happy.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 21:46:05


Post by: Gert


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm new, but I don't want anything to do with Mark VI. It's Marks III and IV all the way.

Good for you. Do you want a sticker or something?
I was making a joke in regards to MkVI being the armour given to the newer recruits in the Legions chief, didn't need you to defend the honour of the older marks.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 23:13:29


Post by: ArcaneHorror


 Gert wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm new, but I don't want anything to do with Mark VI. It's Marks III and IV all the way.

Good for you. Do you want a sticker or something?
I was making a joke in regards to MkVI being the armour given to the newer recruits in the Legions chief, didn't need you to defend the honour of the older marks.


I wasn't, I was simply making a statement. Why so hostile?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 23:14:49


Post by: Crablezworth


 lord_blackfang wrote:
I wanna field a bunch of Sabres too, a 14" move tank sounds abour right for White Scars. But I'm not too fussed, it's so small it can be printed in one piece even on a regular size resin printer.


Just don't ask why it's able to move much faster than the javelins


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Why so hostile?


You're not alone, we all wonder that too, fren


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/01 23:27:30


Post by: RaptorusRex


 lord_blackfang wrote:
I wanna field a bunch of Sabres too, a 14" move tank sounds abour right for White Scars. But I'm not too fussed, it's so small it can be printed in one piece even on a regular size resin printer.


Just think of it as ramming speed.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 03:27:47


Post by: warmaster21


Arcanis161 wrote:
Give me Assault Marines and plastic MK II and I will be happy.


give me Saturnine Terminator Armour


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 07:32:44


Post by: godardc


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm new, but I don't want anything to do with Mark VI. It's Marks III and IV all the way.

Good for you. Do you want a sticker or something?
I was making a joke in regards to MkVI being the armour given to the newer recruits in the Legions chief, didn't need you to defend the honour of the older marks.


I wasn't, I was simply making a statement. Why so hostile?


Unfortunately, in the Hobby and here on DakkaDakka in particular, when people enjoy something, they cannot imagine, let not accept, that someone else doesn't care. It's called toxic positivity and it really shows with behaviors like that
But don't worry DakkaDakka is a wonderful place filled with incredible stuff and people, welcome to 30k !


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 08:37:58


Post by: tauist


 godardc wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm new, but I don't want anything to do with Mark VI. It's Marks III and IV all the way.

Good for you. Do you want a sticker or something?
I was making a joke in regards to MkVI being the armour given to the newer recruits in the Legions chief, didn't need you to defend the honour of the older marks.


I wasn't, I was simply making a statement. Why so hostile?


Unfortunately, in the Hobby and here on DakkaDakka in particular, when people enjoy something, they cannot imagine, let not accept, that someone else doesn't care. It's called toxic positivity and it really shows with behaviors like that
But don't worry DakkaDakka is a wonderful place filled with incredible stuff and people, welcome to 30k !


I'm going to have to disagree with you there. That is not toxic positivity. Toxic positivity is when you get collectively ostracized for expressing any sort of critique. Getting downvoted en masse on Reddit for expressing critique is a textbook example of toxic positivity. However, this does not apply to Dakka where you cannot downvote posts.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 09:17:23


Post by: ClockworkZion


I keep seeing "toxic positivity" being used to try and shut down basically any and all positive statements lately. It's getting a bit silly.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 09:48:33


Post by: lord_blackfang


 tauist wrote:

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. That is not toxic positivity. Toxic positivity is when you get collectively ostracized for expressing any sort of critique. Getting downvoted en masse on Reddit for expressing critique is a textbook example of toxic positivity. However, this does not apply to Dakka where you cannot downvote posts.


We can collectively ostracize without downvoting posts just fine, thank you very much.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 11:37:03


Post by: Crablezworth


Yeah it's not like we had people saying in this very thread, essentially, that criticism of 30k was somehow off topic or that merely being enthusiastic about new plastics for 1.0 wasn't sufficient, one must also play 2.0 or have their ability to decide for themselves what they enjoy entirely revoked. Dakkaites basically telling me I can't post in my own thread unless I conform to their opinions of 2.0, like this was the crusade and heresy facebook group or something


So anyway, GW, those transphobes, are at it again pretending the stupid drop bunker was always a 30k thing... and they still gave it armour 12, because 2.0 is them totally turning over a new leaf or something

Then there's the 1 wound attack bikes... oof

Stormlord has a lower transport capacity than a rhino now.





Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 15:37:51


Post by: ClockworkZion


I see we're still saying that being told that "criticizing the game without playing it leads to shallow criticism based on how you think something works without seeing if your feelings lined up in with how it actually works" is the same as being told "criticism of 30k is off topic".

Good job.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 15:39:34


Post by: Crablezworth


You don't need to play to know 1 wound attack bikes is dumb and bad and stormlord super heavy transports with less capacity than a rhino isn a "wait and see" kinda thing, that's just bull poop. "This iron is less hot, I swear" "This cow fecese tastes good, I swear" like dude the FREE rules are bad, why would I pay to play something that looks bad to me? Every cent I'd have to spend on bad rules is money I wouldn't be spending on nice new plastics models. All loss, no gain on my part. Saying I couldn't possibly assess the changes without playing is just not true, fren. Here I am almost done a plastic spartan having not played 2.0 or intending to making a list for 1.0, no one can stop me it seems


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 16:46:12


Post by: chaos0xomega


Then don't play it, its not that complicated. If you want to be a petulant child turning your nose up at the plate of scrumptious ethnic cuisine on your plate, insisting you don't like it without ever having tasted it before, then by all means continue to stick to your chicken nuggies with a side of fries.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 17:07:58


Post by: ScarletRose


chaos0xomega wrote:
Then don't play it, its not that complicated. If you want to be a petulant child turning your nose up at the plate of scrumptious ethnic cuisine on your plate, insisting you don't like it without ever having tasted it before, then by all means continue to stick to your chicken nuggies with a side of fries.


But how will he keep up his clickbait youtube channel without fresh outrage?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 17:32:19


Post by: Lord Damocles


Attack bikes with more than one wound are chicken nuggies.

I'm ok with this.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 17:34:32


Post by: Toofast


 ClockworkZion wrote:
I keep seeing "toxic positivity" being used to try and shut down basically any and all positive statements lately. It's getting a bit silly.


It's pretty easy to say you like something without calling everyone who doesn't like the same thing an idiot...


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 17:54:02


Post by: ClockworkZion


 Crablezworth wrote:
You don't need to play to know 1 wound attack bikes is dumb and bad and stormlord super heavy transports with less capacity than a rhino isn a "wait and see" kinda thing, that's just bull poop. "This iron is less hot, I swear" "This cow fecese tastes good, I swear" like dude the FREE rules are bad, why would I pay to play something that looks bad to me? Every cent I'd have to spend on bad rules is money I wouldn't be spending on nice new plastics models. All loss, no gain on my part. Saying I couldn't possibly assess the changes without playing is just not true, fren. Here I am almost done a plastic spartan having not played 2.0 or intending to making a list for 1.0, no one can stop me it seems

No one claimed that you need to check every single thing, but you've made claims about the reaction system but refuse to play and see how it works in practice.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 18:48:43


Post by: BrianDavion


 ClockworkZion wrote:
I keep seeing "toxic positivity" being used to try and shut down basically any and all positive statements lately. It's getting a bit silly.



it's hilarious to hear someone claim dakkadakka has a problem with Toxic Positivity


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 18:58:19


Post by: SirDonlad


You don't need to place models down to go through the motions of how a process works.
It's called 'dry rolling'

The reaction system is going to succeed or fail on it's implementation; players always try to break/exploit any mechanic - that's what they do.

Part of considering this system requires knowing how many reaction points are available to the players so the two obvious points of testing are minimal points or unlimited points.
If minimal points are available then it's a rather innocuous system which a lot of people will straight up forget about.

But my fears are two-fold.
First is GW's writing quality in general (how many decades have they chased 'balance' now?)
Second is GW's writing quality when they decide they want to sell a new thing (codex creep)

The likelihood of being able to spam those points from army setup alone is high and the likelihood of additional rules enhancing that further is even higher.

That will likely become the new 'meta' because can you imaging having a fast assault army and never getting into CC because of reactions?

I'm currently chuckling at people saying 'look out sir' is gone while the new rules say the player being shot at gets to choose who takes a wound.
So nothing has changed apart from you don't have to actually say 'look out sir' or roll a dice anymore - you just choose what shots go on whom.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 19:19:22


Post by: Strg Alt


 ClockworkZion wrote:
I see we're still saying that being told that "criticizing the game without playing it leads to shallow criticism based on how you think something works without seeing if your feelings lined up in with how it actually works" is the same as being told "criticism of 30k is off topic".

Good job.


You don´t need to play the game. Watching a couple of batreps on yt will suffice in order to know how the game works.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 19:46:56


Post by: Crablezworth


chaos0xomega wrote:
Then don't play it, its not that complicated.



I have no plans to, but you'll continue to complicate it all the same.


chaos0xomega wrote:
If you want to be a petulant child turning your nose up at the plate of scrumptious ethnic cuisine on your plate, insisting you don't like it without ever having tasted it before, then by all means continue to stick to your chicken nuggies with a side of fries.


That would be the continuing to complicate it ya. This is projection. You clearly don't take issue with petulance, fren.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ScarletRose wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Then don't play it, its not that complicated. If you want to be a petulant child turning your nose up at the plate of scrumptious ethnic cuisine on your plate, insisting you don't like it without ever having tasted it before, then by all means continue to stick to your chicken nuggies with a side of fries.


But how will he keep up his clickbait youtube channel without fresh outrage?


The one with 700 subs over 7+ years that's not monetized and averages 4-6 videos a year and mostly titanicus videos for the last 2 years? The one that's last video was a month ago and got less than 100 views because it was AT related again? That youtube? Not exactly selling t-shirts

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmm9kHLYaZwH-2RbCsNJlUg

The video in the original post is 2 months old and the last time the channel posted a video related to 30k...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
Attack bikes with more than one wound are chicken nuggies.

I'm ok with this.


Sign me up for sweet n sour sauce too


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toofast wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
I keep seeing "toxic positivity" being used to try and shut down basically any and all positive statements lately. It's getting a bit silly.


It's pretty easy to say you like something without calling everyone who doesn't like the same thing an idiot...



Impossible sir, how dare you


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Crablezworth wrote:
You don't need to play to know 1 wound attack bikes is dumb and bad and stormlord super heavy transports with less capacity than a rhino isn a "wait and see" kinda thing, that's just bull poop. "This iron is less hot, I swear" "This cow fecese tastes good, I swear" like dude the FREE rules are bad, why would I pay to play something that looks bad to me? Every cent I'd have to spend on bad rules is money I wouldn't be spending on nice new plastics models. All loss, no gain on my part. Saying I couldn't possibly assess the changes without playing is just not true, fren. Here I am almost done a plastic spartan having not played 2.0 or intending to making a list for 1.0, no one can stop me it seems

No one claimed that you need to check every single thing, but you've made claims about the reaction system but refuse to play and see how it works in practice.


I assure you the powers of accurate observation aren't mine alone, but I do possess them. This is about as useful as being skeptical about water being wet. I've rarely impressed people with "how do we know all fire is hot?" philosophizing.

Here a better question, if this thread is devoid of anything useful because I haven't played 2.0 why slum it here with us know nothings?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Strg Alt wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
I see we're still saying that being told that "criticizing the game without playing it leads to shallow criticism based on how you think something works without seeing if your feelings lined up in with how it actually works" is the same as being told "criticism of 30k is off topic".

Good job.


You don´t need to play the game. Watching a couple of batreps on yt will suffice in order to know how the game works.


You also only have to see a few posts of just all the stuff people purchased to know the secondary market is going to love the new plastics




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SirDonlad wrote:


I'm currently chuckling at people saying 'look out sir' is gone while the new rules say the player being shot at gets to choose who takes a wound.
So nothing has changed apart from you don't have to actually say 'look out sir' or roll a dice anymore - you just choose what shots go on whom.


Yeah that's a good one




Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 21:09:53


Post by: ClockworkZion


You're rigjt, we do need a more open community discussion for people actually interested in the edition and not just posting memes.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 22:53:02


Post by: Strg Alt


@Crablezworth:

That´s funny as this is the exact same amount of HH 2.0 models which I also bought on release.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 23:31:48


Post by: SirDonlad


This is a seriously frustrating edition.
I say that because i'm seeing the usual amount of GW but i can also get the feel they really tried to "freshen things up while not changing it too much" but that makes it all the more frustrating how it's looking overall.
i've had conversations about how the unit should be moved the rolled distance when failing a charge and the edition kind of includes that (moving half the total distance) and the reaction system sounds like it could give you that clutch moment spending the point and adding whatever inches it is to complete the charge; but the expansion of that system is going to be the death of that cool moment - partially because the points are given out all the time (with boosts etc) but mostly because the reaction system has been expanded out to a whole bunch of other potential moments including reactions by the unit being charged and the other units around them.
It becomes a literal exchange of dice before the metaphorical 'exchange of dice' in the combat phase (CC or shooting)

While i see they really tried to include some fairly niche units/models (my primus redoubt) i noted a bunch of text on including fortifications that seemed okay at first glance, the execution of those unit entries has been lamentable.
The primus redoubt is now listed as having two entrances despite the model having three for example.

The change in AP values in the new edition are contentious - i can see why they want to, but the insistence of using d6 solely for these things is the real issue and a whole bunch of units effectively got nerfed hard; and a bunch of them were already being nerfed by simplified profiles.

Examine the case of the Minotaur Artillery Battery.
Spoiler:

It started off with it's vraks profile as a AV14 super-heavy vehicle with a rule for moving and shooting.
This version could be taken by any force only as their lord of war but not the one you would choose given your other choices.
Then the Ordo Reductor had a special unit entry which reduced it's armour values but added a rear facing flare sheild to bring that side back up to AV 14 in effect, but the main feature of being a straight HS unit not super-heavy and still bringing a 7" TL S9 AP3 blast for 205 points.

Now it's profile doesn't have a flare shield, but the armour rating is still the lightweight (superlaggera!) version but it has 1 less HP, no 'blessed autosimulacra', the pintle weapon options are gone, it is now considered open-topped and costs 75 points more.
The minotaur really didn't need its weapons nerfed too. Now its primary (and only if no HK missile) weapon is now S9 AP4 5" blast with shred and pinning.

Taking Minotaurs as a heavy support choice was an Ordo Reductor only feature for what always was a super-heavy unit and i liked having my special things even if they were odd to use.
That particular unit entry seems like a double stiffing to me because not only is it a shadow of its former self - now anyone can have them in the same quantities as the only faction canonically still making them (the one which doesn't share its stuff and pisses off everyone else by claiming any which are found)

Then at the end of the fluff box; one last insult...
as well as
larger, more purpose-built
super-heavy artillery units.


They are actually trying to retcon the Minotaur Artillery Tank to have always been non-super-heavy.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/02 23:36:52


Post by: Gert


It's based on the Malcador and the Malcador hasn't been a Superheavy for years now. The Minotaur is just catching up.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/03 00:06:14


Post by: SirDonlad


 Gert wrote:
It's based on the Malcador and the Malcador hasn't been a Superheavy for years now. The Minotaur is just catching up.


accept it because misery loves company?

No, ta.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/03 00:11:06


Post by: Gert


I mean accept it because it shouldn't be one. I didn't like the changed to the Malcador and always though that it needed something to reinstate the "fire all the guns" deal it had as a SH. But the chassis is not SH status, it's barely longer than a Leman Russ.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/03 00:19:01


Post by: SirDonlad


i want some of what you've been drinking.
The leman russ i have here is juuuust over 4.5 inches long
The pair of minotaurs i have here nearly 7 inches long not including the gun barrells

When did the malcador become non-super heavy?
I seem to remember it becoming one for the solar auxillia and that being a bit of a 'thing' when they came out


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/03 10:25:13


Post by: Gert


Its been a long time now and I can't remember when exactly.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/03 12:40:26


Post by: Crablezworth


 Strg Alt wrote:
@Crablezworth:

That´s funny as this is the exact same amount of HH 2.0 models which I also bought on release.


The rhino's are cool, not sold on the kratos but its dozer blade is cool af.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 12:16:47


Post by: Bobug


 Strg Alt wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
I see we're still saying that being told that "criticizing the game without playing it leads to shallow criticism based on how you think something works without seeing if your feelings lined up in with how it actually works" is the same as being told "criticism of 30k is off topic".

Good job.


You don´t need to play the game. Watching a couple of batreps on yt will suffice in order to know how the game works.


To a degree. But I disagree in this case for heresy. The game is quite different to how it appears in battle reports sofar. Plus I've noticed most of the YouTubers are playing wrong or missing alot sofar.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 13:10:08


Post by: Crablezworth


Bobug wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
I see we're still saying that being told that "criticizing the game without playing it leads to shallow criticism based on how you think something works without seeing if your feelings lined up in with how it actually works" is the same as being told "criticism of 30k is off topic".

Good job.


You don´t need to play the game. Watching a couple of batreps on yt will suffice in order to know how the game works.


To a degree. But I disagree in this case for heresy. The game is quite different to how it appears in battle reports sofar. Plus I've noticed most of the YouTubers are playing wrong or missing alot sofar.



The core mechanics have seen few improvements, and objectively with the release of the pdf its fair to say changes to many units have been anything from contentious to baffling. One doesn't need to watch battle reports or play to assess the changes unit to unit and deem them worse or better. But I mean it's difficult to defend things that appear to be mistakes, attacks bikes with one wound and super heavy transports that carry less than rhinos, that doesn't seem in line with those units and their representation, an attack bike was always 2 wounds because it had 2 marines on board, a stormlord carried 40 dudes historically, and with reason it's massive and seemingly half of them just sit on top of it, I'm not sure how anyone would all of sudden "get" the change from 40 to 10 carrying capacity by playing a game.

I guess its one thing to be upset of stats got worse on a character one liked, but there are issues past "this should be WS5". What isn't sitting well with the people I've talked to in my area are the changes to blast/artillery and ap, people have a lot invested in their armies so not being able to effectively use loved units is taking its toll for some more than others, one buddy is finishing an auxillia list, so the pdf was like a gut punch. He hasn't "played" with them yet for obvious reasons, but its not exactly surprising that he and I share the same confusion and bafflement with a lot of the changes, especially considering that regardless of how we feel about them the points are totally messed up in terms of x got worse or better but somehow got cheaper or more expensive, it feels random.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 13:28:58


Post by: Gert


How do you know the core rules have seen few improvements if you haven't read the rulebook or played the game? We've already established that a lot of YT Batreps have been getting the rules wrong (as they so often do) and your only actual rules document is a PDF with issues.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 13:39:34


Post by: Crablezworth


 Gert wrote:
How do you know the core rules have seen few improvements if you haven't read the rulebook or played the game?


How do you know toilet water isn't delicious? The 52 minute video in the original post has me and my buddy cleary discussing all of the issues with 2.0's leaked rules, none of which have changed or are different than what we discuss regardless of what youtube channel gets what right or wrong while doing a batrep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
a PDF with issues.


Many many issues.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 13:44:24


Post by: SirDonlad


I was looking through the info available and got this worrying feeling that Mechanicum lists just became 'Taghmata' lists with everything special that used to define the three branches shoved into the 'head-cannon' region.



Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 13:47:59


Post by: Gert


 Crablezworth wrote:
How do you know toilet water isn't delicious? The 52 minute video in the original post has me and my cleary discussing all of the issues with 2.0's leaked rules, none of which have changed or are different than what we discuss regardless of what youtube channel gets what right or wrong while doing a batrep.

So have you read the rulebook and played the game? Do you have any practical experience with this ruleset at all or have you entirely based your opinion on leaks and battle reports?
I mean you do you but let's not pretend you're some kind of expert on the new edition you haven't even played.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SirDonlad wrote:
I was looking through the info available and got this worrying feeling that Mechanicum lists just became 'Taghmata' lists with everything special that used to define the three branches shoved into the 'head-cannon' region.


How are they shoved into "head-cannon"? Right now you have just the contents page of the book to work on and you're acting like its the end of the world, chill out.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 13:57:21


Post by: Crablezworth


 Gert wrote:
I mean you do you


k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
let's not pretend you're some kind of expert on the new edition you haven't even played.


I've played 1.0 for approximately 7 years, hosted multiple tournaments, the majority of the battle reports on the cover slaves youtube are 30k.Which is primarily why the video talks about what is different in the new edition from 1.0. I also don't claim encyclopedic knowledge of 1.0 or 2.0, but my friend and often opponent sorta does, he was the other half the video you keep pretending isn't dealing with the rules we got, it is. He's also played games of 2.0 and confirmed everything we've talked about in the video.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 14:12:31


Post by: Gert


 Crablezworth wrote:
I've played 1.0 for approximately 7 years, hosted multiple tournaments, the majority of the battle reports on the cover slaves youtube are 30k.

Wow you hosted tournaments? Who asked?
It doesn't matter what


Which is primarily why the video talks about what is different in the new edition from 1.0. I also don't claim encyclopedic knowledge of 1.0 or 2.0, but my friend and often opponent sorta does, he was the other half the video you keep pretending isn't dealing with the rules we got, it is. He's also played games of 2.0 and confirmed everything we've talked about in the video.

The video based on leaks? That video? The video where you jumped on anyone who said you might be wrong and mocked them?
Forgive me if I don't take you seriously.
I mean all you've done is post memes and videos from a guy who's entire channel is about clickbait nerd rage. You've been passing off your video as knowledge about the edition when it isn't even based on the actual rulebook.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 14:15:23


Post by: SirDonlad


 Gert wrote:

So have you read the rulebook and played the game? Do you have any practical experience with this ruleset at all or have you entirely based your opinion on leaks and battle reports?
I mean you do you but let's not pretend you're some kind of expert on the new edition you haven't even played.



We get it Gert.
You like it no matter the intellectual cost.
As a sum of your contributions i'd say we're all worse off for having entertained it.

Do you actually have anything to say about the system or are you just here to point out how much better you understand it than anyone else?

Nothing about the general AP changes?
Nothing about the scrubbing of unique special rules and profiles for units?
Nothing about the disconnect between the three books?

Even when presented with a post of nothing but valid critique all you could do was try to 'own' me about super-heavy status of models.

And we have to just 'take your word' for your claim you've played games and know better?
You didn't even spot the look out sir mechanic cheese despite your claims of extensive play-testing; why should i value your insight?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 14:19:35


Post by: Crablezworth


 Gert wrote:

Wow you hosted tournaments? Who asked?
It doesn't matter what


You mentioned my lack of competence and expertise, so you in fact asked, you just don't care. It's almost like this is about you, you've said very little about 2.0 or offered any real counter point, you've just come at me, badly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:

The video based on leaks? That video?


The one that proved to be accurate and unchanged from rules released for 2.0, that accurately described the changes and problems with said changes from 1.0 to 2.0, yes that one





 Gert wrote:

The video where you jumped on anyone who said you might be wrong and mocked them?
Forgive me if I don't take you seriously.
I mean all you've done is post memes and videos from a guy who's entire channel is about clickbait nerd rage. You've been passing off your video as knowledge about the edition when it isn't even based on the actual rulebook.


And yet you're still here, fren. Weird.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 14:28:56


Post by: Bobug


 Crablezworth wrote:
Bobug wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
I see we're still saying that being told that "criticizing the game without playing it leads to shallow criticism based on how you think something works without seeing if your feelings lined up in with how it actually works" is the same as being told "criticism of 30k is off topic".

Good job.


You don´t need to play the game. Watching a couple of batreps on yt will suffice in order to know how the game works.


To a degree. But I disagree in this case for heresy. The game is quite different to how it appears in battle reports sofar. Plus I've noticed most of the YouTubers are playing wrong or missing alot sofar.



The core mechanics have seen few improvements, and objectively with the release of the pdf its fair to say changes to many units have been anything from contentious to baffling. One doesn't need to watch battle reports or play to assess the changes unit to unit and deem them worse or better. But I mean it's difficult to defend things that appear to be mistakes, attacks bikes with one wound and super heavy transports that carry less than rhinos, that doesn't seem in line with those units and their representation, an attack bike was always 2 wounds because it had 2 marines on board, a stormlord carried 40 dudes historically, and with reason it's massive and seemingly half of them just sit on top of it, I'm not sure how anyone would all of sudden "get" the change from 40 to 10 carrying capacity by playing a game.

I guess its one thing to be upset of stats got worse on a character one liked, but there are issues past "this should be WS5". What isn't sitting well with the people I've talked to in my area are the changes to blast/artillery and ap, people have a lot invested in their armies so not being able to effectively use loved units is taking its toll for some more than others, one buddy is finishing an auxillia list, so the pdf was like a gut punch. He hasn't "played" with them yet for obvious reasons, but its not exactly surprising that he and I share the same confusion and bafflement with a lot of the changes, especially considering that regardless of how we feel about them the points are totally messed up in terms of x got worse or better but somehow got cheaper or more expensive, it feels random.


I've not got much sympathy for people moaning about artillery getting more balanced. The fact a basilisk or medusa doesn't make it's points back+some in a single shot won't really be missed. Imo it was a negative play experience for the player getting shelled. Artillery is better at pinning now though which is nice. It just won't delete an entire marine squad with no problems anymore

Get you on the pdf. Some of it is really well done. Some is obviously just phoned in or wasnt proof read. 1w attack bikes and capacity 10 storm lords are obvious mistakes. As is 1attack dark sons of death


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 14:29:35


Post by: Gert


 SirDonlad wrote:

Nothing about the general AP changes?
Nothing about the scrubbing of unique special rules and profiles for units?
Nothing about the disconnect between the three books?

There was too much AP2 spam in HH 1. Medusas especially where just stupidly good and Plasma was just a default choice for special weapons.
The cutting of a bunch of units isn't a problem for me as much as I thought it would be, mostly because almost everything got added back in anyway. Havocs going from (again) insanely good to just good is fine IMO. I like the Iron Warriors rules and Hammer of Olympia is actually something I'm using now.
I haven't noticed a huge disconnect. Out group seems to be doing just fine with our Legions.

Even when presented with a post of nothing but valid critique all you could do was try to 'own' me about super-heavy status of models.

Wut? I said that it was good that the Malcador chassis vehicles have all been brought to the same level. Its not my fault you didn't know the chassis hasn't been used as Superheavy for ages.

And we have to just 'take your word' for your claim you've played games and know better?
You didn't even spot the look out sir mechanic cheese despite your claims of extensive play-testing; why should i value your insight?

What mechanic is this? Sorry if I missed it but our group isn't actively looking for ways to break the system.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 14:55:01


Post by: SirDonlad


 Gert wrote:
 SirDonlad wrote:

Nothing about the general AP changes?
Nothing about the scrubbing of unique special rules and profiles for units?
Nothing about the disconnect between the three books?

There was too much AP2 spam in HH 1. Medusas especially where just stupidly good and Plasma was just a default choice for special weapons.
The cutting of a bunch of units isn't a problem for me as much as I thought it would be, mostly because almost everything got added back in anyway. Havocs going from (again) insanely good to just good is fine IMO. I like the Iron Warriors rules and Hammer of Olympia is actually something I'm using now.
I haven't noticed a huge disconnect. Out group seems to be doing just fine with our Legions.


I never heard anyone complain about the amount of AP2 that was available; it was the strength 10 and therefore 'instant death' nature of the medusa and it's free phosphex sheels, that did, but never the fact units had AP2.
Same with the quad-mortar - nobody complained about the AP3 but they did complain about the four small blasts per model in the unit along with phosphex crawling death rule.

I guess you didn't bother to kitbash units which didn't have an official model.

 Gert wrote:

Wut? I said that it was good that the Malcador chassis vehicles have all been brought to the same level. Its not my fault you didn't know the chassis hasn't been used as Superheavy for ages.


Just stop.
You admitted yourself that you don't actually know when earlier in the thread.
i went and checked out my books and found that the malcador is actually STILL super-heavy for the solar auxillia; they just get to take them as ordinary units without using up their lord of war slot.
In fact do you not remember when super-heavies were expanded and FW literally said that the reason their profiles were better in 30k was because they knew how to maintain them properly back then?
The malcador become a 'fast' super-heavy; remember that?

 Gert wrote:
What mechanic is this? Sorry if I missed it but our group isn't actively looking for ways to break the system.


The claim is that 'look out sir' was removed because of how ridiculous it was to have marines jumping out of cover to take a bullet for their sarge like they're defending a hoop in the last seconds - but in 2.0 the player who owns the unit being shot chooses which model takes which wound without saying anything or even rolling a dice to see if successful or not.

It's literally what you do every combat and your group didn't see that coming?!?


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 20:39:59


Post by: Bobug


The malcador hasn't been superheavy for a few years. It got changed in the FAQ


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 21:26:44


Post by: SirDonlad


What? The one in 2019?

edit: >checks update folder<

Yeah, you're right it was in the 2019 errata.

I'm blanking the lockdown years from my memory apparently.


edit 2: Wait a sec...

That means the superleggera Ordo Reductor variant actually started the scale demotion because later rules writers didn't 'get' that my guys were making a special version of their own.


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 22:21:34


Post by: lord_blackfang


 SirDonlad wrote:
I'm blanking the lockdown years from my memory apparently.


Yea we all seem to do that. You straight up have to add +2 years to however long ago you feel something was


Horus Heresy 2.0 - Thoughts so far @ 2022/07/04 22:32:35


Post by: CadianSgtBob


 SirDonlad wrote:
Examine the case of the Minotaur Artillery Battery.


Or look at what they did to the poor Macharius. It used to be a proper heavy tank, not quite as well armed as a Baneblade but carrying a legitimate big gun and protected by AV 14. Now it's nerfed to AV 13, the former 7" blast battle cannon is now a twin-linked AP4 small blast with 24" range. For 600 ***ING POINTS. WTF is this trash and why does GW think it's acceptable to publish such stupid rules?