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Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/11 10:56:00


Post by: AduroT


Went to dig up the old MCU movie thread but after seeing three threads for specific movies I figured I’d just start one for this one.

So yeah, after stewing on it a couple days, my opinion is it is a good, entertaining movie, but it’s not a Great movie. It is the MCU’s horror movie and picks up a bunch of cliches from that genre and a ton of Sam Raimi-ness.

Was disappointed in Wanda. She ended Wandavision with the lesson it’s not ok to psychologically torture people to deal with your grief, and shows up in this movie with the belief that physical torture and murder of people to deal with your grief however is perfectly kosher. Of course at the end she relearns the same lessons from Wandavision.

Was a bit disappointed in America as well. I love that she got to still punch Star shaped holes in stuff, I just love the Star shaped holes, but was otherwise relegated to virtual MacGuffin status as actual hole punching is extremely limited and she’s used as little more than a means to an end. I hope we get to see more of her where she’s got more of her confidence and attitude and willingness to punch people instead of run away and hide.

The Illuminati are an early sign of something I’m worried about with the multiverse. Introducing iconic and fan loved characters just so we can kill them off (and quite brutally) for shock value but it’s not Our versions of the characters so it’s fine we can always bring them back again later. It cheapens the impact of both their deaths and even their appearance itself. I did love them going full hover chair X complete with the theme from the animated series and mind ripples though…

The post credit scene is both incredibly stupid and makes you wonder why you sat there so long for it but also one of the most glorious ones they’ve done.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/11 11:34:24


Post by: Lord Damocles


I liked the bit where the writers just don't mention Vision at all, despite his death being the catalyst for Wandavision.



Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/11 12:04:33


Post by: AduroT


Wanda mentions him at least once that I recall. She references having to blow a hole thru his head herself and then that not even mattering. But yeah mostly she just cares about the kids now. I wonder who Other Kids dad is…


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/11 12:28:10


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I think it was a solid way to introduce and frame America as a character. Her power is, so far as anyone knows, utterly unique. It’s a useful ability, but not as ubiquitous as others.

I really enjoyed it myself. I’d be very surprised if Wanda has snuffed it though. That Scarlett burst could be her going pop - but also her changing her mind and creating some space around her.

Much like Age of Ultron, which setup more than folk give it credit for, I suspect this might turn out to be a Bridging Movie.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/11 12:44:03


Post by: AduroT


Oh, yeah, no way Wanda’s dead. We didn’t see a body. Plus there’s the delay from when she “died” to the Darkhold disintegrating to indicate she’d destroyed all of them everywhere all at once.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/11 13:22:41


Post by: Blackie


This is by far the greatest MCU movie ever, IMHO. I wished I was going to watch a Sam Raimi's movie and I got a Sam Raimi's movie! Not just another dull MCU episode in which directors' skills don't count.

The movie was awesome and I disagree about the OP about the post credit scene. that scene was hilarious and I definitely preferred laughing for two seconds about legend Bruce Campbell than watching a useless preview on something that will happen years from now, as tradition.

Although Wanda is a character I deeply loved, and definitely one of my favorite ones within the MCU, I really hope her death is final though. Her progression was epic, and I wouldn't like marvel to try to redeem her somehow. Nor I'd like to see her returning as a villain, I feel like her story arc is perfect as it is.

And Elizabeth Olsen is also a great actress that I'd like to see way more often outside that character: in fact Wanda is the only character she has portrayed in a movie since 2018, and took a large chunk of her career since 2015!


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/11 14:13:26


Post by: creeping-deth87


I hated it. It's certainly not unwatchable, but it was a huge disappointment. I loathe Sam Raimi's style, and finding out he didn't even watch Wandavision before doing this film explains a lot. Wanda basically retreads her entire story from the show, as if she didn't learn a damn thing about what happened in Westview. I don't even know where they go from here with her, because if they bring her back that would be pretty weak, but if they leave it as is it's such an unsatisfying conclusion to her story. Wanda went through so much, from losing her family, Strucker's experiments, unwittingly helping Ultron to try and end the earth, accidentally killing all those people in Johannesburg, having to kill Vision and still seeing Thanos get what he wanted, Westview and everything that happened there - she deserved a happy ending after slogging through so much super depressing crap. Ending it all with a tower falling on her is super weak.

Agreed with OP on bringing back characters just to kill them off. Xavier's inclusion is so pointless it beggars belief. I'm shocked Patrick Stewart even agreed to reprise the role after he gave such an incredible farewell to the character in Logan. I really hope they stop doing that.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/11 15:13:01


Post by: Easy E


I am just going to re-post what I said in another thread, but I have a few controversial things to add at the end.....

*****************

I left with the following three thoughts:

1. What genre is this aping? That is the key question to ask when thinking about an MCU film. It is clear that this was intended to be a the MCU "horror" entry. That colors a lot of what we see, and why it happens if you apply the tropes of horror movies to it.

2. This movie seems to tie in pretty closely with Wandavision and What IF and is perhaps the most self-referential of the Marvel movies. Will this be a trend, as we also see it in the Spider-Man movies. Once of the MCU's strengths was that each was a stand alone film in its own right. Has that formula changed and does it matter at this point?

3. Mother's Day is the worst day to release this movie as it is inherently anti-mother! The Mother is the villain, and her quest for her aborted kids turns her into a monster. The loss of mother's causes huge trauma in a different character. There are two themes of the impacts of motherhood in this film, and they are both bad!

Edit: Also, great to see a Bruce cameo, we just needed a Ted Raimi dying moment to make this complete. Also, this had the best final, end credits scene since Cap's PSA on patience.
********************************
The following is purposely vague........

Coming out when it did, it is really hard not to see this movie in light of the current US events around the SCOTUS. This movie very clearly has a lot of subtext around that very political issue, and I am not sure if it is intentional.

How could it not be intentional? Well, first off the movie it aping horror conventions. In such a genre, Motherhood and its attached emotions must be amplified into grotesque levels for the horror effect. Since everyone has a mother, the central horror is universal, deeply psychological, and strangely visceral at the same time.

Secondly, Horror movies are conventionally very conservative in nature. They are espousing that a break from tradition and conventional methods leads to horror. WE can also see that element in MoM.

In summary, this movie clearly has a political subtext that is hitting at the exact moment this issue has become prominent again. Bad timing? Probably. However, the aping of the typical Horror genre conventions lead to a clear position on the hot button issue of the day.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/11 15:27:03


Post by: Blackie


 Easy E wrote:


3. Mother's Day is the worst day to release this movie as it is inherently anti-mother! The Mother is the villain, and her quest for her aborted kids turns her into a monster. The loss of mother's causes huge trauma in a different character. There are two themes of the impacts of motherhood in this film, and they are both bad!



To be fair Scarlet Witch is a wannabe mother, her children never existed in the first place. The real mother is a victim in the movie.

And it's actually the contact with the "Necronomicon" that turned her into a monster, in fact even the version of Strange who just used it once was corrupted (third eye as a proof of that) while the one who was guarding it became flat out evil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Easy E wrote:


Coming out when it did, it is really hard not to see this movie in light of the current US events around the SCOTUS. This movie very clearly has a lot of subtext around that very political issue, and I am not sure if it is intentional.

How could it not be intentional?


Movie was shot long before those current events, like a year before, and it was written even longer before that.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/11 15:41:07


Post by: Easy E


Well, that issue has been in the Zeitgeist since the 70's.



Yes, I figured Wanda's turn away from the end of Wandavision was caused by the Darkholde's corruption. However, the heel turn to those who watched Wandavision still did not make much sense.

I also saw the film with a few folks who were completely confused on who the illuminati were, as I heard them whispering amongst themselves. Are MCU movies going to continue to become more and more self-referential, this could be an issue; as that was a problem in previous DCEU films.



Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/11 15:56:53


Post by: Blackie


I had no idea about who the Illuminati were in the marvel universe and didn't find it an issue. I don't see why even ignoring who Xavier, Carter or any of the other characters were was an issue.

The only important thing is that they were basically the Avengers of their universe, and that was pretty clear. Anything else really doesn't matter.

I completely ignored who the guy sitting next to Strange at the wedding was (still ignoring that!) and even forgot about the whole Mordo character, since I haven't watch the first strange in ages (and hated at that time). Still not a problem with this movie.

Catching the references is never important. Typically it's just useless fanservice, and it's actually better if you don't recognize the "easter eggs". At least it's how it works for me, I never liked them.



Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/12 04:04:50


Post by: Grimskul


I'm pretty much on the same page as creeping-deth. I feel like it wasn't really a Doctor Strange movie as much as it was just Wandavision 1.5, which includes all the issues from that series and worse tbh. The main selling points of the movie are the visuals, and even then there's a lot of missed opportunities. The whole fight at Kamar-Taj was underwhelming with how you have an ARMY of sorcerers and both the former and current Sorcerer Supremes who can nothing against her apparently. It's also baffling to me that the way they try and deal with her is by shooting magic arrows and super slow to reload cannons. I honestly feel like they'd be better off with guns given that they could have opened a bunch of portals that poured lava or other stuff on her that would have been way more effective.

There's a lot of narrative issues I'm not a fan of. Usually surrounding Wanda's choice of going after both Chavez as well as basically ignoring a big factor of her wanting a family to begin with in Wandavision, which is being with Vision but conveniently she seems to forget that she was love in with him and the kids were a product of said love but apparently only the kids matter now. Why wouldn't she just choose a universe where the kids are orphaned so she doesn't even have to kill the mom? If she wants kids, she doesn't even need to go to a different universe, she can literally just grab sperm from the sperm bank. Also, why send monsters after Chavez versus just approaching her? Chavez is pretty one-note as a character and with how Scarlet Witch could just mind-control/hallucinate her to do her bidding once she gets close enough, I don't see how it would be an issue. Another big one is how it follows the same problem that plagues MCU movies which is that no one can ever defeat the female characters except for themselves or by another female. We saw this with how Thor couldn't beat Hela and needed Surtur to be the Deus Ex Machina to kill her. Likewise with Red Guardian doing absolutely bupkiss to Taskmaster. We see it here again where Strange is outmatched and even with the Book basically gets his ass handed until Chavez "beats" her by showing her kids and having her commit sudoku, which really rushes to the ending and conveniently prevents her from having to address the fact that she murdered a bunch of people.

The Illuminati is also an incredible waste of cameos and it highlights how poorly written their inclusion was. Reed Richards, one of the smartest men alive, literally tells Wanda how to disable one of their own heavy hitters and doesn't even come prepared with remotely anything that would be useful against Wanda except stretching towards her? How did Captain Carter last longer than either of them? I also like how all the guys die with basically with little to no fight at all, whereas the girls have all the fight screentime. Professor X is probably the worst, since the most powerful telepath apparently can't take down someone with no mental defenses or preparation against a psychic attack. They did him so dirty.

Dr. Strange feels like a side character in his own movie and I really hate how underutilized his own magic is in this movie beyond shooting magic notes. Like seriously, where is the Strange we saw in Infinity War? I feel everything has gone downhill since then, I still laugh at how he was relegated to water boy duty in Endgame.

Overall, what a mess, I was really looking forward to seeing it properly introduce the Multiverse for Phase 4 for the movies and now I can see they clearly have no idea what direction they want to head in.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/14 14:44:02


Post by: Ghool


I found it really odd that with 50 years of comics, villains and story arcs to draw from, this is the Dr. Strange movie we got.
It’s the second MCU film I’ve seen since Endgame (No Way Home was the other), and I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s been on a downward spiral ever since Endgame.
It’s almost like they’re not sure what to do, or even what they really want to do with the franchise, and just keep plodding along hoping to figure out what the over arching story or plot is. How and why do these movies connect?
What was the point of WandaVision when we have this movie?
And if these two movies are what I’m hearing folks rave about from the phase 4, then I don’t have high hopes for anything going forward.

Dr Strange 2 was ok at best.
If they wanted to do a fan service for Strange fans, then where’s Mephisto? Where’s Mordo? Why have we only seen Dormammu from the Dr Strange comic library? I felt the Illuminati were a wasted lip service especially when they just kill them all off in a matter of seconds.
I mean, these people defeated Thanos and they can’t last longer than 30 seconds against Scarlet Witch?

This movie has the problem of too much Feige and not enough Raimi.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/14 15:25:58


Post by: Lance845


Phase 4 is like phase 1. These movies are not full of connections. Iron Man 1 was just an Iron Man movie. Dr Stange 2 is just a Dr Strange movie. It's introducing characters to be pulled into bigger over all plots later. America Chavez is here now for the obvious list of Champions they are putting into this.

You will definitely feel disappointed looking for the bigger over all story at his point since they are not telling that bigger over all story yet.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/14 15:43:49


Post by: Ghool


 Lance845 wrote:
Phase 4 is like phase 1. These movies are not full of connections. Iron Man 1 was just an Iron Man movie. Dr Stange 2 is just a Dr Strange movie. It's introducing characters to be pulled into bigger over all plots later. America Chavez is here now for the obvious list of Champions they are putting into this.

You will definitely feel disappointed looking for the bigger over all story at his point since they are not telling that bigger over all story yet.


This movie was not a Dr Strange movie though.
It was another entry of the MCU with Dr Strange in it.
I was expecting a Dr Strange movie and that’s why I’m disappointed.
It has nothing to do with connecting the movies but instead finding purpose for the story arcs.
At least at the end of Iron Man we had an idea, inkling and hint of what was to come. This has none of that. The post credits didn’t seem like it was hinting at much of anything besides another MCU movie….


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/14 16:53:42


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Ghool wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Phase 4 is like phase 1. These movies are not full of connections. Iron Man 1 was just an Iron Man movie. Dr Stange 2 is just a Dr Strange movie. It's introducing characters to be pulled into bigger over all plots later. America Chavez is here now for the obvious list of Champions they are putting into this.

You will definitely feel disappointed looking for the bigger over all story at his point since they are not telling that bigger over all story yet.


This movie was not a Dr Strange movie though.
It was another entry of the MCU with Dr Strange in it.
I was expecting a Dr Strange movie and that’s why I’m disappointed.
It has nothing to do with connecting the movies but instead finding purpose for the story arcs.
At least at the end of Iron Man we had an idea, inkling and hint of what was to come. This has none of that. The post credits didn’t seem like it was hinting at much of anything besides another MCU movie….


On this….and a partial agreement I suppose, but also a disagreement…

The MCU was previously always building toward Thanos. We saw the Infinity Gems introduced and at least partially explained. We saw glimpses of Thanos himself. We had the overall team dynamic forged and refined. And we always knew that was going to be the pay off. And for my money, it was the greatest pay off in cinema history.

But so far as I can tell? Nothing else was really teased until Captain Marvel, which introduced the Skrulls who do keep popping up here and there, with a Secret Invasion series to come in the not too distant future.

To the best of knowledge (which as always is self admittedly limited), we don’t really know what they’re working toward this time. Multiverse seems to be playing a part. And given they now have X-Men and F4 back in the Disney Stable, we can speculate that’s how they’ll come in - but then, what we’ve seen of the multiverse so far suggests not, given the inherent hazards demonstrated in No Way Home and Multiverse of Madness.

Loki suggests the new Thanos may prove to be Kang The Conqueror - but for now that’s purely speculation.

And that to me is the greatest flaw of Phase 4. We’re seeing the fallout of End Game, which I for one am enjoying. It’s nice to know such a momentous event (well, two momentous events) aren’t just being moved past. But we don’t really know where it’s taking us, which can (and arguably has) left it feeling more disjointed and disposable than Phases 1-3.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/14 18:53:45


Post by: creeping-deth87


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
[
Loki suggests the new Thanos may prove to be Kang The Conqueror - but for now that’s purely speculation.


I'm really hoping this is actually what they're doing. The Loki series was excellent and Jonathan Majors was a real joy to watch as Kang. You could tell he had fun playing the character.


We’re seeing the fallout of End Game, which I for one am enjoying.


Same. I love that phase 4 keeps reminding us just how momentous an event Infinity War was, in a lot of interesting ways too. Seeing how Monica come back in Wandavision was neat, and Jolena's dusting in Hawkeye was so well done.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/14 18:58:37


Post by: trexmeyer


I know Scarlet Witch's current plotline is heavily inspired by House of M, but it's sexist.

Thor lost his mother, father, planet, friends, and brother in that order. Also found out that he had a secret sister who helped his father brutally conquer several worlds. Also found out his brother is actually adopted and a Frost Giant. Then he failed to stop Thanos. How does he handle this trauma? In stereotypical male fashion, he drinks, gets fat, and games all day apparently.

What about Wanda? She has childhood trauma, fought the Avengers, lost her brother, is responsible for the deaths of innocents, killed her lover only to have Thanos undo it and get the Mind Stone. How does she react? Well...clearly she has a complete break from reality and mind controls a small town and imagines herself in a marriage with Vision with two children. Because of couse that's what she wants. She then discovers that it is all in her head, but then decides to tear across time and space in search of two children that she made up? C'mon man. It's like how Thanos courting Death is a story that only works in comic format so it was changed to an issue of resources.

The MCU has never had great writing, but they had good worldbuilding, particularly in the buildup to the first Avengers movie and then Thanos. Now the cracks are starting to show.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/14 19:11:38


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Difference is Wanda has the power to reshape reality.

That adds a whole new dimension to the mix. Thor was the Prince of Asgard. The King in waiting. He’s been raised and trained in what that might mean. He also had friends around him.

Wanda….didn’t. Remember, in Civil War she was under house arrest, with really only Vision looking out for her. She’s someone who, outside of her powers, really never had anything - and only had what little she had taken away.

I’m not sure her gender is a significant part of that.

I’d like to have seen some fallout between her and Tony post End Game. After all, it was Tony’s love for his daughter that meant nobody simply threw a Reset Switch - which was entirely possible. His arguable selfishness (but also arguably wisdom, as they knew for a fact once they returned the stones to their rightful place in the timeline, the loop would be set forever more) is the core cause of all of this mess. The displaced, the dispossessed.

One thing I really liked and felt suitably understated was the other Doctor calling Strange out (and setting up his decisions later in the movie), because whilst he came back, his two Cats were already dead. If your pets are all you had, that’s gonna suck as much as losing family members.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/15 06:43:46


Post by: Blackie


Also don't forget that Thor always had a childish mentality like many warrior princes, and never really grew up. His story arc is coherent with the character, so was Wanda's. They're actually my two favorite MCU characters now.

And I loved how Wanda remarked she and Strange (not to mention Tony Stark) have been treated differently by the american society, because she's a woman, a foreigner and not wealthy. To be not sympathetic about her really says a lot. People were sympathetic towards Killmonger, who was much worse (but male and black) and not under the influence of a magical book that instantly corrupts souls.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/15 11:42:30


Post by: Ahtman


 Blackie wrote:
People were sympathetic towards Killmonger, who was much worse (but male and black) and not under the influence of a magical book that instantly corrupts souls.


Their motivations were very different so I don't think proffering that it was simply their sex that made people more sympathetic to one or the other is accurate.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/15 20:17:25


Post by: Grimskul


 Blackie wrote:
Also don't forget that Thor always had a childish mentality like many warrior princes, and never really grew up. His story arc is coherent with the character, so was Wanda's. They're actually my two favorite MCU characters now.

And I loved how Wanda remarked she and Strange (not to mention Tony Stark) have been treated differently by the american society, because she's a woman, a foreigner and not wealthy. To be not sympathetic about her really says a lot. People were sympathetic towards Killmonger, who was much worse (but male and black) and not under the influence of a magical book that instantly corrupts souls.


I dunno what you're talking about, personally I was never a big fan of Killmonger and most people I talked to had very little sympathy for him as a character since he was basically just a hypocrite that was using past injustices as an excuse to grab power (like pretty much every dictator/aspiring despot). Though if you're saying in terms of people within the show, Killmonger really only got "sympathy" as far as his dad being unknowingly murdered and being of a royal bloodline while his expansionist mentality was shared by some of the less conservative Wakandan leaders, so really it's more of an internal cultural/political thing than anything to do with their race or sex. Even then I'd say it's a stretch to say they had sympathy versus feeling obligated out of tradition that Killmonger exploited primarily through T'challa not wanting bad blood between one another.

It's hard to be sympathetic towards Wanda when she held an entire town hostage and effectively tortured them with basically no consequences (no, losing "not-Vision" and "fake kids really doesn't count because that'd be like saying acknowledging that your imaginary friends aren't real counts as a sacrifice) because Rambeau gave her a free pass. It has nothing to do with her being a woman or of her socioeconomic status. Her going on a murder spree shortly afterwards, even if she's being corrupted by a magical macguffin, doesn't mean much when it doesn't address a lot of the plot hole issues of wanting a new set of children and basically resets her story arc from Wandavision for no good reason.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/15 20:24:40


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Grimskul wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Also don't forget that Thor always had a childish mentality like many warrior princes, and never really grew up. His story arc is coherent with the character, so was Wanda's. They're actually my two favorite MCU characters now.

And I loved how Wanda remarked she and Strange (not to mention Tony Stark) have been treated differently by the american society, because she's a woman, a foreigner and not wealthy. To be not sympathetic about her really says a lot. People were sympathetic towards Killmonger, who was much worse (but male and black) and not under the influence of a magical book that instantly corrupts souls.


I dunno what you're talking about, personally I was never a big fan of Killmonger and most people I talked to had very little sympathy for him as a character since he was basically just a hypocrite that was using past injustices as an excuse to grab power (like pretty much every dictator/aspiring despot).

It's hard to be sympathetic towards Wanda when she held an entire town hostage and effectively tortured them with basically no consequences (no, losing "not-Vision" and "fake kids really doesn't count because that'd be like saying acknowledging that your imaginary friends aren't real counts as a sacrifice) because Rambeau gave her a free pass. It has nothing to do with her being a woman or of her socioeconomic status. Her going on a murder spree shortly afterwards, even if she's being corrupted by a magical macguffin, doesn't mean much when it doesn't address a lot of the plot hole issues of wanting a new set of children and basically resets her story arc from Wandavision for no good reason.


Trouble with Wanda is……how do you punish her? Nobody had a clear way to imprison her against her will. Like….at all. And it’s made clear in the show she didn’t realise what she was doing, so deep was her grief. Multiverse is an extension of that grief.

Nobody punished her. But then….nobody exactly tried to help her. She was left alone with her grief. That’s…not conducive to someone recovering from trauma.

The Darkhold, if we look at it in 40K terms is a daemonic item, which exploited her mental wounds. Whisper “but what if you could find your children…I can show you how”, and went from there.

Hence America’s solution was the best one.

I still suspect we’ve not seen the last of Wanda. That apparent squish related explosion could be her protecting herself from the rubble for all we know.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/15 20:34:30


Post by: Voss


And it’s made clear in the show she didn’t realise what she was doing

No, the show said the opposite. Explicitly so mid-way through when she walks out of the Hex, tells the Feds to feth off and goes back to her little control fantasy. She started ignorant of what she was doing, but she didn't stay that way... and it didn't matter to her when she realized what she was doing. It was real fun watching the mothers and children whimper and silently scream at the edge of town, knowing she was linked into their heads.

But then….nobody exactly tried to help her. She was left alone with her grief.

I mean, sure, if you ignore the trio of side characters trying to help her and most of whom got mind-controlled for their trouble. And her created vision of Vision, who tried (and failed) to reason with her.

She also actively hid from anyone who knew her and could have helped her. People didn't remember the town, remember? Even while standing in front of the sign for the town.

And at the end, when its all over and her Named Character victim forgives her, does she seek help, or company? Nope, she willingly isolates herself again. Learning nothing from the experience, we get this... inflicting trauma on other people masquerading as grief (so it can be easily 'forgiven,' without resolving or addressing the cycle of abuse), take 2.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/15 20:52:31


Post by: Grimskul


Voss more or less nailed what I wanted to say. There was POTENTIAL for a proper resolution for her arc with how they were building it up, but the way they ended off Wandavision and then tied in MoM basically writes off any opportunity for her to resolve what she did in Wandavision or how others within the superhero community react in finding out what she did (or hell, at least have her try and find the rebuilt/another Vision again, really bizarre that she seems to forget Vision exists when he was a major fixture in Wandavision). Having her basically be evil again thanks to a magical macguffin is poor writing and effectively reverses any potential character development she has. It's basically the equivalent of having Tony going back to becoming an arms dealer in Iron Man 3 and arguing that his new arc reactor and his PTSD from Avengers made him start selling Stark tech as weaponry again so he can have the world armed with Iron Man suits against an alien invasion, which would defeat the whole point of the first movie having him realize the harm he was causing from selling weapons.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/15 21:07:57


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I disagree.

It’s not until quite late on in WandaVision we find out Wanda is the Scarlett Witch, and what that means. Nobody else knew about that at the time. And it doesn’t help we had Agatha needling away at her.

Ultimately, Wanda is a victim, whatever we think of her subsequent actions.

She loses her family, and is then experimented upon.

She’s taken in by Ultron (literally and metaphorically), and loses her brother (her sole remaining family member) as a consequence.

Then we see her placed under house arrest before the Sokovia Accord is even properly in place, with just Vision really standing by her. And why? Because she did her best to contain an exploding terrorist. She didn’t set off the bomb. She didn’t cause Crossbones to set it off. She did what she could to prevent it going off in a market place, which still would’ve damaged the same bloody building,

Hawkeye comes along and recruits her.

Later, we see her and Vision trying to just be alone, and live their lives as best they can. But….nope. Not long after, she has to blow a hole in Vision’s head, only to see that sacrifice undone, and Vision die again at the hands of Thanos, before she’s snapped out of existence.

Then she comes back, nearly has her revenge. And when Thanos is defeated minutes after, he gets dusted.

Her entire life has been trauma after trauma after trauma. Other than her early childhood, she’s been used and exploited for the gain of others. And folk wonder why she’s a bit Radio Rental? Why her actions don’t necessarily make sense to us, who (and I genuinely mean this) haven’t had even a fraction of her life trauma?

The poor woman just couldn’t catch a break. Like….at all.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/15 21:27:09


Post by: Grimskul


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I disagree.

It’s not until quite late on in WandaVision we find out Wanda is the Scarlett Witch, and what that means. Nobody else knew about that at the time. And it doesn’t help we had Agatha needling away at her.

Ultimately, Wanda is a victim, whatever we think of her subsequent actions.

She loses her family, and is then experimented upon.

She’s taken in by Ultron (literally and metaphorically), and loses her brother (her sole remaining family member) as a consequence.

Then we see her placed under house arrest before the Sokovia Accord is even properly in place, with just Vision really standing by her. And why? Because she did her best to contain an exploding terrorist. She didn’t set off the bomb. She didn’t cause Crossbones to set it off. She did what she could to prevent it going off in a market place, which still would’ve damaged the same bloody building,

Hawkeye comes along and recruits her.

Later, we see her and Vision trying to just be alone, and live their lives as best they can. But….nope. Not long after, she has to blow a hole in Vision’s head, only to see that sacrifice undone, and Vision die again at the hands of Thanos, before she’s snapped out of existence.

Then she comes back, nearly has her revenge. And when Thanos is defeated minutes after, he gets dusted.

Her entire life has been trauma after trauma after trauma. Other than her early childhood, she’s been used and exploited for the gain of others. And folk wonder why she’s a bit Radio Rental? Why her actions don’t necessarily make sense to us, who (and I genuinely mean this) haven’t had even a fraction of her life trauma?

The poor woman just couldn’t catch a break. Like….at all.


I think we might be talking past each other accidentally. By no means am I saying that Wanda has a charmed life and that she's an ungrateful wacko lashing out against the world for perceived slights against her. She definitely has a rough upbringing and life throughout her story arc. However, the problem is that the idea that her having "victim" status somehow gives her a free pass at effectively doing whatever she wants, particularly in a way that actively harms innocents that have nothing to with her source of trauma, is really bad messaging and implies that atrocities can be justified based on how much someone has sufferered. It would be one thing if they effectively addressed her actions as deplorable, but they handwave it not once, but TWICE. Once when Monica Rambeau says, "Nobody will know what you sacrificed" (cringe worthy moment there, imagine saying that to a mentally ill person that kidnapped and tortured innocent people to look like their family) and then again in MoM, when Strange basically says he doesn't care about what she did at Westview. She never tries to right her wrong, she never gets to see tangible consequences or have an actual talk with others about her coming to terms with her trauma or any sort of remorse. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either full on cast Wanda as a tragic villain type character or actually address her struggle without basically giving her free passes on her actions. What's worse is that she just "kills" herself at the end of MoM, which is a huge cop out to try and weedle her way of dealing with her villainous actions.



Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/15 21:38:42


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


But how does she right that wrong? What could she possibly do to make things up to the folk of Westview?

They were rightly terrified of her. To go “Galaxy brain”, if the folk of Westview started to find forgiveness for her, could they know for certain it wasn’t her making them forgive her? Just a little tweak here, and the heat is off. It’s certainly well within her capabilities.

And who was there that could punish her? We saw what she did to Thanos. And there, she was taking her time, because she wanted to see him suffer before he died. In theory, she could’ve just squelched him in the blink of an eye, such as focussing the field thing on his bonce and giving it a good old squeeze.

Everyone in her life, apart from Vision, wanted to use her and her abilities. Sure, Rambeau was trying to talk her down in a positive way. But how many others started that way, only to later weaponise her?

I’ve just put Civil Waron again, because it’s been a while since I’ve seen it. To add to her trauma? It was her attempt to stop Crossbones killing Cap and who knows how many innocents that was the last straw?

Go and watch that scene again. Compare the scenes of devastation shown during the Accord Briefing, contrast and compare them all to that building being partially blown up. That? That was the step too far? I mean it still killed people, but it’s categorically not on her. Yet….that was the straw that broke the camel’s back? How do you think that would make you feel? What would that do to an already pretty damaged young woman?

Cap can send colossal Helicarriers crashing from the sky. Tony can invert a flying land mass’ engines. The Avengers can wreck a significant part of New York (albeit all three, just like Lagos, being the lesser of evils had they not intervened). But Wanda tried to stop a lunatic blowing up a market and that’s the crossing of the line?


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/15 22:50:57


Post by: Voss


But how does she right that wrong? What could she possibly do to make things up to the folk of Westview?

Literally almost anything positive. She could try... something.
She's got reality warping powers, and instead of trying to fix even the smallest thing... she feths off and leaves them in their mental rubble. Indeed, we're left with the message that she was _right_ and she was the one who sacrificed and suffered, not them.

That's insane, and that's before you get into the 'super-deep' relationship (they wander off to Scotland to.. have sex? Yay?) with her robot boyfriend and then their fake children that she creates. I am very moved by these 'deep and meaningful' relationships that bookend a whole lot of CGI effects. But they were in the comics, so they have to go in, I guess.

As for the rest... Civil War is bad. Sorry. Bad premise, bad reactions, dumb as feth choices, bad resolution. That the 'straw' is only skin deep and superficial goes with the rest of the film.

Going back a bit...
It’s not until quite late on in WandaVision we find out Wanda is the Scarlett Witch, and what that means. Nobody else knew about that at the time.

Here's the thing. The Scarlet Witch title... doesn't matter. They throw that in because that's her comic superhero name, for the audience to recognize it. It has no real meaning or effect. Agatha can yadda, yadda that as much as she likes, but she's the evil necromancer pulling life force out of her mom's friends or whatever. Because by existing and providing a spectacle fight at the end, Wanda's crimes don't matter anymore.

She loses her family, and is then experimented upon.

She’s taken in by Ultron (literally and metaphorically), and loses her brother (her sole remaining family member) as a consequence.

Well... yes, she loses her family. The pre-Wandavision version of that sounded more like she & Pietro volunteered, though. They wanted power for vengeance on Stark, choosing the cycle of violence. (Which could have been handled well, but was sort of handwaved, as was their initial heel-face turn).

They're not taken in by Ultron, they're trying to use him, and find out that he's plans are a lot bigger than just 'crush Stark/Avengers.' Losing Pietro as a consequence... eh. That doesn't particularly work for me. Partly its how terribly AoU is set up for action CGI, but 'superfast guy chooses to be shot rather than carry people out of line of fire' was a weird thing to be asked to swallow.

But all that makes Wandavision and then MoM even worse. She's reset again and again to making the same bad decisions for bad reasons.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 00:12:54


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Wanda was never a victim.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 01:31:14


Post by: Vulcan


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ve just put Civil Waron again, because it’s been a while since I’ve seen it. To add to her trauma? It was her attempt to stop Crossbones killing Cap and who knows how many innocents that was the last straw?

Go and watch that scene again. Compare the scenes of devastation shown during the Accord Briefing, contrast and compare them all to that building being partially blown up. That? That was the step too far? I mean it still killed people, but it’s categorically not on her. Yet….that was the straw that broke the camel’s back? How do you think that would make you feel? What would that do to an already pretty damaged young woman?

Cap can send colossal Helicarriers crashing from the sky. Tony can invert a flying land mass’ engines. The Avengers can wreck a significant part of New York (albeit all three, just like Lagos, being the lesser of evils had they not intervened). But Wanda tried to stop a lunatic blowing up a market and that’s the crossing of the line?


That very thing is why I never finished Civil War. That whole concept, that superheros in general, and Wanda in particular, is to blame for people dying because she only managed to save some of the people who were threatened by the bomb is INCREDIBLY STUPID.

It's like blaming cops for stopping a mass shooter only after he'd expended half his ammo and killed half his intended victims, and then deciding the solution is to put all cops, everywhere, in prison for that perceived failure. Nope, this may be a superhero movie, but THAT breaks my immersion, No can do.

And that the fallout from that is becoming increasingly important as the MCU goes forward is probably why I'm increasingly disengaged with it.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 02:05:24


Post by: H.B.M.C.


But that's not why they're blaming her. The fear is more to do with 'these people have no oversight, and can seemingly go wherever they want to do whatever they want'.

Wanda messing up the save from Rumlow exploding was just the catalyst for that, not the only reason.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 06:43:46


Post by: Blackie


 Grimskul wrote:


It's hard to be sympathetic towards Wanda when she held an entire town hostage and effectively tortured them with basically no consequences (no, losing "not-Vision" and "fake kids really doesn't count because that'd be like saying acknowledging that your imaginary friends aren't real counts as a sacrifice) because Rambeau gave her a free pass.


And what about Tony Stark creating Ultron, causing havoc and countless deaths? His motivations were also objectively wrong, assuming a democracy is the correct way of living. He also got away with no consequences, actually he kepts his "hero" status and was never portrayed as a villain, even despite the clash between the other superheroes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wanda was never a victim.


She was a kid during a war that left ther orphan. That makes her a victim.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 07:08:00


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Couple of tidbits from Civil War. They’re single lines, so easily missed/forgotten.

Vision says Wanda’s powers affect the amygdala, with the result being people inherently fear her, whether she’s actively using them or not.

When the Accords are revealed, Wanda says “so they’re coming for me”. Vision is the only Avenger who says “we won’t let that happen”.

Tony, albeit in private refers to her as a weapon of mass destruction.

It’s all kind of been there. I do agree they could’ve done a bit more latterly to highlight it. But it is all there.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 10:41:41


Post by: kodos


 Vulcan wrote:
It's like blaming cops for stopping a mass shooter only after he'd expended half his ammo and killed half his intended victims, and then deciding the solution is to put all cops, everywhere, in prison for that perceived failure. Nope, this may be a superhero movie, but THAT breaks my immersion, No can do.

the difference here is that cops (and soldiers) have an institution behind them that checks if they have done their best and/or did the right thing at the right time

we just don't see this very often but each time something happened, cops see a trial to check if they did something wrong
like if the trial comes to the conclusion that the cops could have done something earlier to prevent it but did not do it without a good reason, it will have consequences

and civil war is all about that there is no global institution above super heroes, so no one that checks if they did something wrong


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 10:46:39


Post by: creeping-deth87


 Blackie wrote:


And what about Tony Stark creating Ultron, causing havoc and countless deaths? His motivations were also objectively wrong, assuming a democracy is the correct way of living. He also got away with no consequences, actually he kepts his "hero" status and was never portrayed as a villain, even despite the clash between the other superheroes.


That's really not the same thing. Tony didn't have the intent of creating a genocidal AI. He doesn't even think he's anywhere near bringing the Ultron idea to fruition when it happens, and when Ultron is born Tony wastes no time trying to stop him and make it right.

By contrast, it's very difficult to seriously argue Wanda didn't have the intent to use the residents of Westview as meat puppets because the first time she talks to the SWORD agents, it's clear she knows what she's doing and she tells them to go away. For this to have been the same thing as Ultron, Wanda would have had to be surprised to learn what she did (she clearly wasn't), and she would have had to immediately started working toward undoing the damage she's inflicting on the people of Westview (which, again, she doesn't).


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 11:04:41


Post by: Blackie


Wanda clearly says that she believed her reality was a good thing for the residents of Westview in Wandavisions, or maybe she wanted to believe that her illusion and the "perfect" world she created made them happier. Only in the end she realized she was actually hurting them. She's also someone who lived outside western societies and as a clandestine, criminal or even a weapon for most of ther life.

Tony Stark instead is someone that is purposefully willing to cancel people's freedom in the name of "safety", which is a radicated and debated concept in western cultures. It's a pillar of far right parties actually, and one of the most realistic examples of modern evil. He also had the biggest ego in the world and lived a privileged life. And of course thanks to his status he never faced any consequence from creating that genocidal AI, not even a moral reprimand; in fact he was even backed by the government. That's why I found really hard to sympatize with him, and why he should have definitely be considered a villain. I do consider him a great villain actually.

Make no mistake, Wanda is clearly a villain. But a villain that deserves some sympathy, I think of her like the MCU Darth Vader. She's definitely not an evil person, just a fragile, marked by events and disturbed one who at some point was even corrupted by ultra powerful evil magic. Like at least another version of Strange for example.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 11:46:11


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Yup. I think a significant factor in the ending of Multiverse is that Dr Strange learns his alternative self was corrupted by the Darkhold. And whilst himself a raging egomaniac with a few issues, he’s more Together than Wanda ever was.

Please note I’m not saying Wanda should’ve gotten off Scot free. At all. But realistically, there’s no-one except Wanda that could restrain her. So…what could anyone do?


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 12:48:29


Post by: AduroT


While we’re arguing Tony’s evil vs Wanda’s suffering, don’t forget Tony had been suffering from some pretty severe PTSD since the first Avengers that pretty much everyone around him just ignores.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 13:07:59


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


True. But again, Wanda’s life has always been one of exploitation and trauma.

I’m never one to misery measure, as whatever the worst thing to happen in your life remains the worst thing to happen in your life, no matter that someone else has been through objectively or subjectively worse.

Civil War really does paint a load of stuff about Wanda I think people have missed in this conversation. Defo give it another watch


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 13:25:07


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Blackie wrote:
She was a kid during a war that left ther orphan. That makes her a victim.
I think it's pretty clear the context we're covering here.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 13:50:50


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
She was a kid during a war that left ther orphan. That makes her a victim.
I think it's pretty clear the context we're covering here.


But she never really progressed beyond that. Whilst we’re exactly sure how long it was between losing her parents and being experimented upon (WandaVision suggests a span of years), but even in Civil War, Cap rebukes Tony’s claim she’s a WMD with “she’s just a kid”.

Now both could be in the wrong there. Tony for just seeing her as a threat, and Cap kind of infantalising her, suggesting that he’s perhaps unable to see she is in fact an adult, and a damaged one at that. Certainly I think we can make some kind of argument that had Cap and Tony been less set in their ways, Wanda might’ve been left entirely out of Civil War, rather than (once again) being made a pawn.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 19:43:33


Post by: Togusa


 creeping-deth87 wrote:


Agreed with OP on bringing back characters just to kill them off. Xavier's inclusion is so pointless it beggars belief. I'm shocked Patrick Stewart even agreed to reprise the role after he gave such an incredible farewell to the character in Logan. I really hope they stop doing that.


Uh...I can see you haven't seen the absolute dumpster fire kick in the teeth Star Trek Picard botched alleyway abortion....


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 20:00:18


Post by: creeping-deth87


 Togusa wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:


Agreed with OP on bringing back characters just to kill them off. Xavier's inclusion is so pointless it beggars belief. I'm shocked Patrick Stewart even agreed to reprise the role after he gave such an incredible farewell to the character in Logan. I really hope they stop doing that.


Uh...I can see you haven't seen the absolute dumpster fire kick in the teeth Star Trek Picard botched alleyway abortion....


I have not! I've actually steered clear of nu Trek after watching the first episode of discovery ages ago.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/16 20:29:00


Post by: AduroT


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:


Agreed with OP on bringing back characters just to kill them off. Xavier's inclusion is so pointless it beggars belief. I'm shocked Patrick Stewart even agreed to reprise the role after he gave such an incredible farewell to the character in Logan. I really hope they stop doing that.


Uh...I can see you haven't seen the absolute dumpster fire kick in the teeth Star Trek Picard botched alleyway abortion....


I have not! I've actually steered clear of nu Trek after watching the first episode of discovery ages ago.


Not to drag this too far off track, but you should really check out Lower Decks. Yes, it’s an animated comedy, but clearly by people who love Star Trek.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/17 04:44:56


Post by: Togusa


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:


Agreed with OP on bringing back characters just to kill them off. Xavier's inclusion is so pointless it beggars belief. I'm shocked Patrick Stewart even agreed to reprise the role after he gave such an incredible farewell to the character in Logan. I really hope they stop doing that.


Uh...I can see you haven't seen the absolute dumpster fire kick in the teeth Star Trek Picard botched alleyway abortion....


I have not! I've actually steered clear of nu Trek after watching the first episode of discovery ages ago.


I envy you. Truly.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/17 07:50:26


Post by: AduroT




Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/17 10:23:23


Post by: Ahtman


Recent interview with one of the screenjwriters goes a bit into the logistics of the film such as covid rearanging the schedule (MoM was supposed to be out before No Way Home) and that Wanda wasn't the original villain, which may explain a few things.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/18 14:38:20


Post by: LunarSol


Finally got to see it. Quick review, then I'll reply with some thoughts on the conversation:

Okay, so lets get the bad out of the way first. Elizabeth Olsen doesn't work as the villain when she's talking. Her three big conversation points (villain reveal leading up to attacking Kamar Taj, chatting with Wong to find Exogol, and the end) don't really work. Her dialog is flimsy and she doesn't sell the heel turn well. It's easily the weakest part of the film.

That said, I loved it. There's so much silly camp. The possession setup was such a classic bit of Evil Dead and really worked with the surreal style of Dr. Strange. Wanda as a force of supernatural horror was great. As soon as Black Bolt walked up I whispered to myself "I have no mouth and I must scream" and seeing exactly that was so fun and it was all so dumb and campy and silly. Her stalking them through the tunnel was visceral and uncanny and the wraith form that kills Xavier looked fantastic. The music battle was so charming and I adored the full Deadite ending. Letting Rami loose to indulge in the MCU was just endlessly fun for me.

Basically, if someone is dreamwalking, this film is fantastic. If no one is dreamwalking.... not the strongest.

Also, this is probably the first movie where it feels like we're building towards something, but I want to reply to a couple things in the thread before I get to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
Also, why send monsters after Chavez versus just approaching her?


Her only means of approaching Chavez outside of summoning monsters to capture her is to dreamwalk, which she seems hesitant to do. Her weakness throughout the film is the blind spot she has for her other selves wellbeing. She has no argument for what to do about them and dreamwalking requires her to confront that hole in the delusion she's running on. We don't get the impression she dreamwalks to indulge in her family, though the first time she does it, she notably loses herself in the moment and doesn't actually accomplish anything before the Darkholm is destroyed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:

Although Wanda is a character I deeply loved, and definitely one of my favorite ones within the MCU, I really hope her death is final though. Her progression was epic, and I wouldn't like marvel to try to redeem her somehow. Nor I'd like to see her returning as a villain, I feel like her story arc is perfect as it is.


It's probably not impossible to redeem her, but it would be pretty difficult. She kills a LOT of people in this film and while that kind of stuff gets swept under the rug all the time, particularly the tendency for alt universe characters to "not count" as do unfortunately nameless henchwizards.... IDK, she takes things pretty far.

That's not to say its impossible, but the context will be interesting. They could do the cheap incursion method and have it be 838 Wanda, but that doesn't quite seem to be THE Scarlet Witch and there's still supposed to be a prophecy of her ruling or destroying reality... probably time to start talking about all the things I think we're seeing built here....


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/18 15:06:54


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Blackie wrote:


And it's actually the contact with the "Necronomicon" that turned her into a monster,


She clearly forgot the words.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
The main selling points of the movie are the visuals, and even then there's a lot of missed opportunities. The whole fight at Kamar-Taj was underwhelming with how you have an ARMY of sorcerers and both the former and current Sorcerer Supremes who can nothing against her apparently. It's also baffling to me that the way they try and deal with her is by shooting magic arrows and super slow to reload cannons. I honestly feel like they'd be better off with guns given that they could have opened a bunch of portals that poured lava or other stuff on her that would have been way more effective.


Remember in the MCU the ultimate attack is the punch, there is no internal logic for any other weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kodos wrote:

and civil war is all about that there is no global institution above super heroes, so no one that checks if they did something wrong


They need a group of lads to keep an eye on them.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/18 15:39:23


Post by: LunarSol


 Lance845 wrote:
Phase 4 is like phase 1. These movies are not full of connections. Iron Man 1 was just an Iron Man movie. Dr Stange 2 is just a Dr Strange movie. It's introducing characters to be pulled into bigger over all plots later. America Chavez is here now for the obvious list of Champions they are putting into this.

You will definitely feel disappointed looking for the bigger over all story at his point since they are not telling that bigger over all story yet.


Alright, so here's as good a spot as any to start talking about the future. While its hard to say for sure where they're going with this, I think the natural direction from here is to follow the Infinity Saga with a Multiverse Saga and the natural endpoint for such a thing would be Secret Wars, which this movie lays a ton of groundwork for. The obvious connection is name dropping "incursions" at every opportunity possible, but there's a good chunk more.

So, to start with, I think Kang's a red herring. Not that he won't be important, but he's not the big bad or at least I hope not. Kang feels to me more like an Ultron. He's an Avengers worthy threat for sure, but one that serve to pull the team into the multiverse conflict more than the one who resolves it. I hope, beyond hope, that when the chips are down and the multiverse is collapsing, it'll still be Doom pulling the strings, giving us a real chance at the character in his full grandeur rather than the meager attempts we've seen from Fox.

Now, we've got the Incursions element in play, but there's other bits of this film I can see worked into the story. For one, we've got America, who feels set up for the Young Avengers team, but could be more. Perhaps a kindly robed Rabum Alal offers to help her find her parents as a way of triggering Incursions and controlling the collapse of the multiverse? We've also got Wanda who didn't really complete this prophesy in any meaningful way. Perhaps she returns in a blend of her House of M role, serving as the power that allows Doom to shape his Battleworld, effectively ruling the universe and ultimately, being the one to destroy it and set things right again?

Now, I think that's a long ways off, but it feels like the groundwork this movie is laying. We'll just have to see what's in store.



Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/18 16:22:02


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I’m definitely torn on whether nobody really knowing where this is leading to being a good thing (Thanos was telegraphed early on, and that worked beautifully, but is now Been There Done That) or a Bad Thing (give us something, lest internet theories go too far and create butthurt weirdos angry solely that they didn’t guess right, which is of course a carefully crafted and highly personal insult at them)


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/18 16:51:32


Post by: Voss


Surprise, its Kang?
Is this really not being telegraphed? I feel like I'm being beaten around the head and shoulders with alternate timelines and multiversal conflicts.

Which is a shame, because there isn't any way to have stakes of any kind in that setup: Well, Bob's dead.. oh, here's another Bob. I guess its fine. Just send the replacement Gamora to fetch another Black Widow.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/18 17:32:16


Post by: LunarSol


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I’m definitely torn on whether nobody really knowing where this is leading to being a good thing (Thanos was telegraphed early on, and that worked beautifully, but is now Been There Done That) or a Bad Thing (give us something, lest internet theories go too far and create butthurt weirdos angry solely that they didn’t guess right, which is of course a carefully crafted and highly personal insult at them)


Thanos wasn't telegraphed until the end of Phase 1. We went a couple years with a nebulous concept of "the Avengers" being the closest thing to an end goal. It wasn't until after that that we got anything Infinity related. Even the stuff that came in Phase 1 is just fairly sloppy retcons.

Part of the problem is just that Phase 4 got delayed and stretched beyond its initial plans and a lot of stuff has shuffled around. I don't think we'll have anything really locked down until it ends with some kind of Avengers tentpole film to mark it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
Surprise, its Kang?
Is this really not being telegraphed? I feel like I'm being beaten around the head and shoulders with alternate timelines and multiversal conflicts.

Which is a shame, because there isn't any way to have stakes of any kind in that setup: Well, Bob's dead.. oh, here's another Bob. I guess its fine. Just send the replacement Gamora to fetch another Black Widow.


There's arguably more multiverse stuff so far then there ever was Infinity stuff in the Infinity Saga. I think of the 23 films, only 9 can generously claim to be about the stones in any way, and I'm more apt to just call it 4 (Ultron, Guardians1, War/Endgame).

I do think for the most part they've done a good job of highlighting that alt versions are not in any way the same person and should minimize the lack of stakes. It's pretty clear that no matter how many Strange's die in this film that losing our Strange wouldn't just result in replacing him with one wearing glasses. To that end Gamora seems to be more the exception than the rule.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/18 19:11:01


Post by: Voss


Not sure I followed that. There hasn't been a rule, since there weren't any dead (major) characters until IW/EG.

But since there are now, lets see what the pattern is:

Tony-> actually dead, because actor wants out

Natasha->actually dead, older woman replaced with younger blonde. Hollywood, eh?

(*well, dead until either decides otherwise and the beancounters decide there's money in their return. Leaning more towards the beancounters for ScarJo, because Hollywood (and audiences...))

Vision->replacement Vision, and painfully, explicitly rendered a Ship of Theseus metaphor

Loki->replacement Loki. Accepted the 'true' timeline as his own, despite never experiencing it. Functionally the same person, with the same personality, foibles and history.

Gamora->Gamora. We haven't seen her in action yet, but I'd wager that 'angry sexual tension' was deemed to sell more tickets and she'll functionally be GotG1 Gamora.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/18 19:51:42


Post by: LunarSol


Fair. I'd honestly kind of blanked on Loki, which is a big oversight on my part. The only other one I suppose is Vision, and well, he's a robot, I'm not surprised if he returns in any form.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/18 21:44:20


Post by: AduroT


Rogers seems to be dead as well.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/18 23:59:06


Post by: Ghool


 LunarSol wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I’m definitely torn on whether nobody really knowing where this is leading to being a good thing (Thanos was telegraphed early on, and that worked beautifully, but is now Been There Done That) or a Bad Thing (give us something, lest internet theories go too far and create butthurt weirdos angry solely that they didn’t guess right, which is of course a carefully crafted and highly personal insult at them)


Thanos wasn't telegraphed until the end of Phase 1. We went a couple years with a nebulous concept of "the Avengers" being the closest thing to an end goal. It wasn't until after that that we got anything Infinity related. Even the stuff that came in Phase 1 is just fairly sloppy retcons.

Part of the problem is just that Phase 4 got delayed and stretched beyond its initial plans and a lot of stuff has shuffled around. I don't think we'll have anything really locked down until it ends with some kind of Avengers tentpole film to mark it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
Surprise, its Kang?
Is this really not being telegraphed? I feel like I'm being beaten around the head and shoulders with alternate timelines and multiversal conflicts.

Which is a shame, because there isn't any way to have stakes of any kind in that setup: Well, Bob's dead.. oh, here's another Bob. I guess its fine. Just send the replacement Gamora to fetch another Black Widow.


There's arguably more multiverse stuff so far then there ever was Infinity stuff in the Infinity Saga. I think of the 23 films, only 9 can generously claim to be about the stones in any way, and I'm more apt to just call it 4 (Ultron, Guardians1, War/Endgame).

I do think for the most part they've done a good job of highlighting that alt versions are not in any way the same person and should minimize the lack of stakes. It's pretty clear that no matter how many Strange's die in this film that losing our Strange wouldn't just result in replacing him with one wearing glasses. To that end Gamora seems to be more the exception than the rule.


You forgot Thor 2 which dealt entirely with the Reality Stone.
And the Avengers, which had the Tessaract/Cosmic Cube/Space Stone, and Thanos at the end.
Infinity War was telegraphed as soon as the Cosmic Cube entered the picture in Captain America 1.
Well, at least the eventual appearance of Thanos.
Indeed there was some meandering in getting to Infinity War, but the seeds were there.
I think the problem is that after the universe is saved, what do the heroes do next? There really aren’t stakes much bigger than that. Which is why we have this Multiverse stuff now.
So where does that lead? Kang? Beyonder? Dr. Doom? None of this is clear nor evident, which makes it feel even more meandering and uncertain of the overall direction that the first 3 phases built up.

And once the stakes are raised to a multiverse ending threat, where does the franchise go from there?
The problem I find with the MCU currently is that they’ve painted themselves into a corner already by having a universe ending threat as the first really big bad. And not every super hero struggle has to involve saving the world/universe/multiverse.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 01:03:51


Post by: bbb


As far as big threats/events. Some from the comics we have left could be:

Galactus
Doctor Doom
Kree/Skrull war
Avengers vs X-Men
Secret Invasion


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 02:45:02


Post by: LunarSol


 Ghool wrote:

You forgot Thor 2 which dealt entirely with the Reality Stone.
And the Avengers, which had the Tessaract/Cosmic Cube/Space Stone, and Thanos at the end.
Infinity War was telegraphed as soon as the Cosmic Cube entered the picture in Captain America 1.
Well, at least the eventual appearance of Thanos.
Indeed there was some meandering in getting to Infinity War, but the seeds were there.


Nah. The Cosmic Cube is its own McGuffin Red Skull has chased in the comics for decades with no relation to the Infinity Stones. It's cute to make it important retroactively, but there's zero reason to assume that was the plan going in. The Aether is even flimsier. It actually has an origin in Thor 2 as a creation of Malekith and really has no indication of being intended as the Reality stone until they started reaching back. The only one that's even a little clean is Loki's scepter, but even that feels like something that was decided after the fact. None of these things telegraphed Infinity Gauntlet in any meaningful way. They just got retconned into the story later.

FWIW, when I said there's only 9 of 23 that have anything to do with Infinity Stones, I was counting these. Cap 1, Avengers 1, 2, 3, 4, Thor 2, 3 Guardians 1, Strange 1. 10 I suppose with Captain Marvel. It's still less than half, and I'll still argue of that 10, there's only a couple that deal with the stones in any meaningful way.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 03:24:02


Post by: Voss


 bbb wrote:
As far as big threats/events. Some from the comics we have left could be:

Galactus
Doctor Doom
Kree/Skrull war
Avengers vs X-Men
Secret Invasion


Pretty sure that last one is already slated for a show or something.

Kree/Skrull is, I guess a thing? It is already present in the MCU, but was ~30 years ago. Making it interesting would be tricky, given how many times Agents of Shield dipped into the Kree well for plot points, and its essentially 2 NPC factions fighting.

Avengers vs X-men... bleh. Basically civil war again, but with a slightly different cast.

Galactus and Doom are just recurring villains. Which would be nice to have recurring villains, but there needs to be a story attached.

LunarSol wrote:Nah. The Cosmic Cube is its own McGuffin Red Skull has chased in the comics for decades with no relation to the Infinity Stones. It's cute to make it important retroactively, but there's zero reason to assume that was the plan going in. The Aether is even flimsier. It actually has an origin in Thor 2 as a creation of Malekith and really has no indication of being intended as the Reality stone until they started reaching back. The only one that's even a little clean is Loki's scepter, but even that feels like something that was decided after the fact. None of these things telegraphed Infinity Gauntlet in any meaningful way. They just got retconned into the story later.


This is one of those areas where I think going back to 'but in comics' is problematic, and the MCU is really its own thing. It doesn't really matter what happened in the comics and how deep people can dive based on their personal knowledge (or wikipedia). At this point, those are the Infinity stones, and every movie treats them as important for that reason. If the comic source disagrees, it doesn't really matter, in the exact same way that it doesn't matter that Tony was captured by Afghan rebels rather than Contras.

 AduroT wrote:
Rogers seems to be dead as well.

Meh. There are at least half-a-dozen ways around that as an 'end' for Rogers (including several ways that's a fake Rogers and just jabbing him with extra super soldier juice), and the writers (after the movie aired) had several different opinions on how that scene even worked (several of which just didn't work with how they explained the cross-multiverse 'time travel' in the film itself).

Nat and Tony's deaths at least have some permanence based on having her soul devoured by a rock and him being burned out by energies established as beyond mortal capability, respectively.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 05:52:48


Post by: kodos


Voss wrote:
This is one of those areas where I think going back to 'but in comics' is problematic, and the MCU is really its own thing. It doesn't really matter what happened in the comics and how deep people can dive based on their personal knowledge (or wikipedia). At this point, those are the Infinity stones, and every movie treats them as important for that reason. If the comic source disagrees, it doesn't really matter, in the exact same way that it doesn't matter that Tony was captured by Afghan rebels rather than Contras.

this is less about what was in the Comics, but that the writers at the beginning did not know what will happen. Infinity Stones or Thanos was not a thing by the time the movies were made, they did not even know if the franchise will continue

so those were written without the stones in mind and the story was changed later to fit the new goal (hence the early movies do not treat them as the important stones)

the important part here is, that phase 4 and the upcoming movies might be written without the next villain/enemy in mind and are just about introducing the next generation and continue the story until the one movie comes that sets up the next big thing (and retcons the story that everything was all about this)



Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 08:42:09


Post by: Blackie


Voss wrote:


Nat and Tony's deaths at least have some permanence based on having her soul devoured by a rock and him being burned out by energies established as beyond mortal capability, respectively.


Our Nat and Tony, yeah. But with the multiverse every character might come back eventually.

Xavier was a perfect example of that. Someone complained about their beloved super powerful mutant being overwhelmed by the witch but we knew nothing about that Xavier, he wasn't our Xavier. He might have been a complete fool or just not as powerful as our Xavier. Wanda from that universe was much different (and definitely extremely less powerful) than our Wanda.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:


It's probably not impossible to redeem her, but it would be pretty difficult. She kills a LOT of people in this film and while that kind of stuff gets swept under the rug all the time, particularly the tendency for alt universe characters to "not count" as do unfortunately nameless henchwizards.... IDK, she takes things pretty far.



It wouldn't be that hard actually. Just let her join a fight against a very powerful villain and let her sacrifce to save the squad. But it's cheesy, and that's the way they already redeemed Tony. I don't even think Wanda's character needs to be redeemed honestly, just being under the evil book's influence justifies anything.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 12:35:50


Post by: Lance845


Kang definitely isn't the new Thanos. He's the new Loki. And a way to introduce another young avenger at the end of his villain story. Young Kang refuses to grow up to be Kang.

I am entirely in the camp that the Big finale is going to be Secret Wars with some God Emperor Doom.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 12:52:53


Post by: Voss


 kodos wrote:
Voss wrote:
This is one of those areas where I think going back to 'but in comics' is problematic, and the MCU is really its own thing. It doesn't really matter what happened in the comics and how deep people can dive based on their personal knowledge (or wikipedia). At this point, those are the Infinity stones, and every movie treats them as important for that reason. If the comic source disagrees, it doesn't really matter, in the exact same way that it doesn't matter that Tony was captured by Afghan rebels rather than Contras.

this is less about what was in the Comics, but that the writers at the beginning did not know what will happen.


No, I was responding to LunarSol explicitly saying 'in the comics, the cosmic cube this and the aether that.' Its 100% 'what was in the comics'
-----


Blackie wrote: Our Nat and Tony, yeah. But with the multiverse every character might come back eventually.

Yes, exactly. Its why I don't like the multiverse angle- the stakes just go poof.
Its particularly galling because they opened this door with Gamora, a character that they didn't really bother exploring much in the first place. She's got a complex backstory, but was quickly demoted to Brat-Lord's love interest and then sacrificed to Thanos' backstory (which was then jettisoned of even the modicum of complexity that introduced with alt-reality total monster time Thanos)

I don't even think Wanda's character needs to be redeemed honestly, just being under the evil book's influence justifies anything.

All of Wandavision happened before she came in contact with any book.
I don't have much use for redemption stories personally, but if she ever pops up again, the MCU does need to deal with the fact that she is voluntarily a monster (and a stupidly powerful reality warper) and address how she and everyone else deals with that.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 13:25:18


Post by: Blackie


Voss wrote:

All of Wandavision happened before she came in contact with any book.


And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

Voss wrote:

I don't have much use for redemption stories personally, but if she ever pops up again, the MCU does need to deal with the fact that she is voluntarily a monster (and a stupidly powerful reality warper) and address how she and everyone else deals with that.


I never saw her as "evil", let alone someone who became "voluntarily" a monster. She was just corrupted and controlled by the evil book at some point (remember the Xavier scene, Wanda was somehow kept prisoner in her own mind), and all her quest started out of pure desperation. Tony Stark creating Ultron and later fighting the good avengers was much worse, and he was always in control of his mind. But he never paid for his atrocities, thanks to the fact that he was backed up by the government, and in the end the only thing he cared was that Thanos canceled Peter Parker from existence.

She really doesn't need any redempion at this point, destroying the book, the temple and possibly herself, was definitely enough. And now that she has moved own from her dream, she would have no reason to act like a villain again in case she comes back.



Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 13:53:22


Post by: AduroT


Pretty sure that Wanda trapped in Wanda’s mind was the Other Wanda that Wanda was possessing.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 13:57:01


Post by: LunarSol


Voss wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Voss wrote:
This is one of those areas where I think going back to 'but in comics' is problematic, and the MCU is really its own thing. It doesn't really matter what happened in the comics and how deep people can dive based on their personal knowledge (or wikipedia). At this point, those are the Infinity stones, and every movie treats them as important for that reason. If the comic source disagrees, it doesn't really matter, in the exact same way that it doesn't matter that Tony was captured by Afghan rebels rather than Contras.

this is less about what was in the Comics, but that the writers at the beginning did not know what will happen.


No, I was responding to LunarSol explicitly saying 'in the comics, the cosmic cube this and the aether that.' Its 100% 'what was in the comics'
-----


The point is not that it has to work the same way it does in the comics. The point is that using an aspect of the comics that is a major aspect of Red Skull's character from the comics is not a good sign that it was intended to be in any way related to the Infinity Stones in those movies. It was in no way hinting at anything. Just something they retconned later to tie it in. It wasn't included in The First Avenger with Thanos in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AduroT wrote:
Pretty sure that Wanda trapped in Wanda’s mind was the Other Wanda that Wanda was possessing.


Yeah. Xavier thought if he could free her from the rubble it would break the dreamwalking spell and free the possessed Wanda.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackie wrote:

It wouldn't be that hard actually. Just let her join a fight against a very powerful villain and let her sacrifce to save the squad. But it's cheesy, and that's the way they already redeemed Tony. I don't even think Wanda's character needs to be redeemed honestly, just being under the evil book's influence justifies anything.


Yeah. Assuming we go Secret Wars (and at this point why wouldn't we?), her fulfilling the prophecy of the Scarlet Witch by destroying BattleWorld seems like the right way to go.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 15:00:28


Post by: Easy E


Any story that relies on a Multiverse or Timeline shenanigans suffers as the lack of consequences and flimsy rational just fall apart. I am very disappointed that the MCU is going that route.

The exception of course is Bill and Ted.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 15:24:25


Post by: Ghool


 LunarSol wrote:
 Ghool wrote:

You forgot Thor 2 which dealt entirely with the Reality Stone.
And the Avengers, which had the Tessaract/Cosmic Cube/Space Stone, and Thanos at the end.
Infinity War was telegraphed as soon as the Cosmic Cube entered the picture in Captain America 1.
Well, at least the eventual appearance of Thanos.
Indeed there was some meandering in getting to Infinity War, but the seeds were there.


Nah. The Cosmic Cube is its own McGuffin Red Skull has chased in the comics for decades with no relation to the Infinity Stones. It's cute to make it important retroactively, but there's zero reason to assume that was the plan going in. The Aether is even flimsier. It actually has an origin in Thor 2 as a creation of Malekith and really has no indication of being intended as the Reality stone until they started reaching back. The only one that's even a little clean is Loki's scepter, but even that feels like something that was decided after the fact. None of these things telegraphed Infinity Gauntlet in any meaningful way. They just got retconned into the story later.

FWIW, when I said there's only 9 of 23 that have anything to do with Infinity Stones, I was counting these. Cap 1, Avengers 1, 2, 3, 4, Thor 2, 3 Guardians 1, Strange 1. 10 I suppose with Captain Marvel. It's still less than half, and I'll still argue of that 10, there's only a couple that deal with the stones in any meaningful way.


Thor 2 did not have the Aether retconned to be an Infinity Stone.
It was right in the movie. Just watch the post credits scene again.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 15:30:14


Post by: LunarSol


 Ghool wrote:

Thor 2 did not have the Aether retconned to be an Infinity Stone.
It was right in the movie. Just watch the post credits scene again.


Fair enough. In my defense, I'm not sure the last time I watched Thor 2.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 16:12:59


Post by: Lord Damocles


 Blackie wrote:
And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

'It's ok to torture a town full of people to the point that they beg you to just let them die instead, so long as you think you're doing them a favour'.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 16:21:14


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

'It's ok to torture a town full of people to the point that they beg you to just let them die instead, so long as you think you're doing them a favour'.


I know this might sound cheap? But grief can do horrible things to a person. And Wanda was never especially stable to start with.

Blackie is ultimately correct. Nobody died. Nobody suffered physical injury.

And…..we’re also making the potential mistake of assuming That’s The End Of That Story. They can pick back up on that thread as they see fit. The MCU is nothing if not consistent in Things Coming Back To Bite You On The Bum.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 16:56:59


Post by: Ghool


 LunarSol wrote:
 Ghool wrote:

Thor 2 did not have the Aether retconned to be an Infinity Stone.
It was right in the movie. Just watch the post credits scene again.


Fair enough. In my defense, I'm not sure the last time I watched Thor 2.


The kids and I are watching phase 1-3 again, which is why I mentioned the consistency.
It’s clear that as of the post credits scene in Avengers that they were building to Infinity War.
Phase 4 has shown me so far, no such clear direction except, ‘Hey, do you know there’s a Multiverse out there’ and not really much else aside from ‘Incursions can happen’.
To me personally, and since I am rewatching all the way to Endgame in sequence, it’s a lot clearer and anticipated in the build up to Endgame than the current phase and what it’s building to.
At this point I’d wager it’s most likely the Beyonder and Secret Wars.
We will have to see if in the interim we get things like the Annihilation Wave, Galactus, and Dr. Doom. Which is what I suspect. It just feels like this round of the MCU almost feels like it’s listing and a little lost.
I feel MoM would have been much better served as a Dr. Strange movie 100% than another entry for the MCU. I mean he doesn’t have to save the world and universe in every movie, does he?


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 17:38:44


Post by: LunarSol


I think the important distinction isn't that they were building to Infinity War since Avengers though. Avengers was the end of Phase 1. I think the issue is that from Iron Man, we knew Phase 1 was building towards Avengers. The biggest issue with Phase 4 is just that none of the films seem to be set up as any kind of finale the way the original Avengers films did. Obviously the pandemic makes that feeling worse, but it would definitely help if it felt like either of the main threads (multiverse/Dark Avengers) felt like they were pointing to a specific film rather than the very vague teasers we've seen so far.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 17:48:41


Post by: Easy E


Isn't it building to Avengers 2.0 and the new "Team" of Avengers?


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 17:57:32


Post by: LunarSol


 Easy E wrote:
Isn't it building to Avengers 2.0 and the new "Team" of Avengers?


We assume, but there's been no "Avengers Initiative" moment to really cement that. There's been a bit of the "building a team" from Veronica in the D+ shows, but there's no project announced that anything seems to be building towards. There are multiple things its probably building towards, but nothing like the clean signposts we got at the end of Iron Man and Avengers.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 18:10:03


Post by: Voss


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

'It's ok to torture a town full of people to the point that they beg you to just let them die instead, so long as you think you're doing them a favour'.


I know this might sound cheap? But grief can do horrible things to a person. And Wanda was never especially stable to start with.

Blackie is ultimately correct. Nobody died. Nobody suffered physical injury.
.

Yes, indeed. Wanda had no concept of mercy. In many cases it'd be easier to forgive her if she had killed them. At least it would've been quick and fairly painless


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/19 18:45:50


Post by: Lance845


 LunarSol wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
Isn't it building to Avengers 2.0 and the new "Team" of Avengers?


We assume, but there's been no "Avengers Initiative" moment to really cement that. There's been a bit of the "building a team" from Veronica in the D+ shows, but there's no project announced that anything seems to be building towards. There are multiple things its probably building towards, but nothing like the clean signposts we got at the end of Iron Man and Avengers.


We have the introduction of:

Patriot
Ms Marvel
Iron Heart
Speed
Wiccan
Sylvie
America Chavez
Kate Bishop
Cassie Lang being aged up after the blip.

And Kang, which is a back door introduction of Iron Lad.



Young Avengers/Champions.



Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 01:57:34


Post by: LunarSol


Young Avengers is for sure happening, but there's still no clear signpost. There's no movie or show announced, no "we're forming a band" stinger the same way. That's the only distinction I'm making Iron Man pointed definitively to Avengers, Avengers pointed definitively to Thanos. Right now we have a lot of threads, but we haven't had a moment where they've been the same kind of declaration those moments created.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 06:43:04


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


We also have The Naughty Avengers, like US Agent and chums bubbling away.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 06:58:48


Post by: Blackie


 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

'It's ok to torture a town full of people to the point that they beg you to just let them die instead, so long as you think you're doing them a favour'.


Is it to ok to create an AI that caused the deaths of thousands just because you think the world needed better/cleverer/bigger guns, which oh wait was the family business? What about selling guns to criminals or enemy nations? The bomb who killed Wanda's familiy was from Stark Industries.

Tony Stark is a gun dealer, nothing more guys. The fact that is brilliant, american, well dressed and that can make good jokes doesn't make it a good guy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

'It's ok to torture a town full of people to the point that they beg you to just let them die instead, so long as you think you're doing them a favour'.


I know this might sound cheap? But grief can do horrible things to a person. And Wanda was never especially stable to start with.

Blackie is ultimately correct. Nobody died. Nobody suffered physical injury.
.

Yes, indeed. Wanda had no concept of mercy. In many cases it'd be easier to forgive her if she had killed them. At least it would've been quick and fairly painless


Don't forget she never adapted living in a western country, she was an outcast for her entire life. She's always been a loner and an anti social person. Even her lover wasn't a human being. And her power is kinda unique, she might not fully understand the pain she inflicts by controlling people since she can't experience it.

And again, I find her much more mercyful than Tony Stark . Both in WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness she understands and accepts her faults and corrects her actions in the end.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 07:08:39


Post by: bbb


Lots of options. Nothing firm for direction. We do have the next generation of heroes being developed, as well as bringing reacquired properties into the MCU.

Iron Man - 2008 start of the MCU, tease of Avengers
Avengers - 2012 tease fulfilled, new tease of Thanos
Endgame - 2019 Thanos tease fulfilled.
Spider-Man: Far from Home - 2019 last phase 3 film, tease of Nick Fury and Skrulls in space...?
COVID - 2020
Black Widow- 2021 first phase 4 movie, teases Dark Avengers? Thunderbolts?

So, if it wasn't for Covid we'd probably know what the first post Infinity goal was by now, but my guess is something like Dark Avengers and then when that happens we'll get the tease for what the new 'saga' is.




Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 08:52:18


Post by: MarkNorfolk


Saw it last night. Pretty much enjoyed it. It was a non-stop roller coaster though. And I did enjoy Bruce punching himself all over again.

The fight with the Illuminati was pretty brutal (why are you talking? - Just kill her right now!), maybe the most brutal MCU fight scene yet. Although.... if Black Bolt's voice can't go through the thin skin over where his mouth was, how could it go through the roof of his mouth into his brain?


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 11:22:46


Post by: AduroT




Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 13:16:46


Post by: creeping-deth87


 Blackie wrote:


Is it to ok to create an AI that caused the deaths of thousands just because you think the world needed better/cleverer/bigger guns, which oh wait was the family business?


So, again, you're really understating the importance of intent here. Tony did not intend to create a genocidal machine. He doesn't even think he's anywhere near actually creating an AI, he's just as surprised as everyone else when Ultron first reveals himself to the Avengers at the party. By contrast absolutely no one can argue that Wanda did not intend to hold the people of Westview captive. It's clear from her first interaction with the SWORD agents that she knows exactly what she's doing and has no intention of stopping.


What about selling guns to criminals or enemy nations? The bomb who killed Wanda's familiy was from Stark Industries.


Literally the instant he finds out his weapons are being used by warlords and terrorists, he calls a press conference and declares his company is no longer making weapons.

I think you just hate the character for whatever reason, which is fine, but intent is absolutely relevant here. Wanda isn't doing anything by accident, but Tony does.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 13:18:08


Post by: LunarSol


MarkNorfolk wrote:

The fight with the Illuminati was pretty brutal (why are you talking? - Just kill her right now!),


They didn’t want to kill the innocent Wanda she was possessing.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 13:45:16


Post by: Grimskul


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:


Is it to ok to create an AI that caused the deaths of thousands just because you think the world needed better/cleverer/bigger guns, which oh wait was the family business?


So, again, you're really understating the importance of intent here. Tony did not intend to create a genocidal machine. He doesn't even think he's anywhere near actually creating an AI, he's just as surprised as everyone else when Ultron first reveals himself to the Avengers at the party. By contrast absolutely no one can argue that Wanda did not intend to hold the people of Westview captive. It's clear from her first interaction with the SWORD agents that she knows exactly what she's doing and has no intention of stopping.


What about selling guns to criminals or enemy nations? The bomb who killed Wanda's familiy was from Stark Industries.


Literally the instant he finds out his weapons are being used by warlords and terrorists, he calls a press conference and declares his company is no longer making weapons.

I think you just hate the character for whatever reason, which is fine, but intent is absolutely relevant here. Wanda isn't doing anything by accident, but Tony does.


It's also funny because Wanda is partly responsible for initiating it due to playing her weird mind games in Tony's head at the beginning of AoU that brought his fears up to the fore to the point that he pushed for the Ultron program idea as hard as he did at the start of the movie. So by that logic Wanda is partly responsible as the spark that set off the Ultron project. But I guarantee you no one will give her flack for that in this thread.

Also, creeping deth hit the nail on the head here. Ultron was an AI gone rogue that wasn't even expected to become sentient as quickly or as malevolently as anybody expected. Tony immediately addressed it and worked with the rest of the Avengers to take Ultron out. It's not like Tony just threw his hands up in the air and ignored it the whole movie until the very end, unlike Wanda with Westview, or doubled down with another Ultron project while the rest of the Avengers went after Ultron.



Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 13:53:55


Post by: Voss


 Blackie wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
And she did nothing irreparable in WandaVision. At some point she even believed she was giving a better life to the people she controlled. Several "good" superheroes did worse things and weren't even questioned.

'It's ok to torture a town full of people to the point that they beg you to just let them die instead, so long as you think you're doing them a favour'.


I know this might sound cheap? But grief can do horrible things to a person. And Wanda was never especially stable to start with.

Blackie is ultimately correct. Nobody died. Nobody suffered physical injury.
.

Yes, indeed. Wanda had no concept of mercy. In many cases it'd be easier to forgive her if she had killed them. At least it would've been quick and fairly painless


Don't forget she never adapted living in a western country, she was an outcast for her entire life. She's always been a loner and an anti social person. Even her lover wasn't a human being. And her power is kinda unique, she might not fully understand the pain she inflicts by controlling people since she can't experience it.

Uh, what? She's not western, so she doesn't know what mercy is? That's disturbing and doesn't even make sense: she's so thoroughly drenched in western culture her subconscious recreates _only_ western sitcoms. Ones that most 'westerners' her age wouldn't even know or remember.
You do understand that the 'vaguely eastern european war refugee' is supposed to make her sympathetic to audience, not alien, right?

I've absolutely no idea where you're getting 'she's a loner' from. She went from normal family life to possibly codependent relationship with her twin, to team member to possibly codependent relationship (but almost certainly unhealthy and toxic, given Wandavision). From what we're shown, she has _never_ been alone until Wandavision, and being left to her own devices is a vehicle for becoming a monster.

She's directly connect to their minds, and they're telling her. You can't tell me she's a victim because grief and stuff AND tell me that she can't empathize, understand or even _experience_ pain. That makes her even less of a human being than Vision.



And again, I find her much more mercyful than Tony Stark . Both in WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness she understands and accepts her faults and corrects her actions in the end.

In WandaVision she absolutely does not, she simply walks away, abandons her victims like trash, and delves right back into her own mental crap. And its reinforced by a Named Character patting her on the back for all the 'good' she's done.
In MoM... That's a seriously dark take.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 21:22:43


Post by: Lance845


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:


Is it to ok to create an AI that caused the deaths of thousands just because you think the world needed better/cleverer/bigger guns, which oh wait was the family business?


So, again, you're really understating the importance of intent here. Tony did not intend to create a genocidal machine. He doesn't even think he's anywhere near actually creating an AI, he's just as surprised as everyone else when Ultron first reveals himself to the Avengers at the party. By contrast absolutely no one can argue that Wanda did not intend to hold the people of Westview captive. It's clear from her first interaction with the SWORD agents that she knows exactly what she's doing and has no intention of stopping.


What about selling guns to criminals or enemy nations? The bomb who killed Wanda's familiy was from Stark Industries.


Literally the instant he finds out his weapons are being used by warlords and terrorists, he calls a press conference and declares his company is no longer making weapons.

I think you just hate the character for whatever reason, which is fine, but intent is absolutely relevant here. Wanda isn't doing anything by accident, but Tony does.


By the same token you are misrepresenting Wanda in Westview. Her first interaction with the Agents is when they show up to her house with a weaponized drone. She doesn't know she is holding everyone hostage. She just knows these people tried to assassinate her and her family. It shows her want to do good that she didn't walk out there and start killing everyone. Yes, some of the people outside try to tell her she is holding them hostage. But 1) she doesn't believe anything the assassins are telling her and 2) she isn't aware that she is even capable of what they are claiming she is doing let alone how she would be doing it.

So much of what Wanda is doing in Westview is instinctual. Something she isn't in direct control of. And she only lashes out when she thinks people are threatening the slice of happiness she is retreating into. When she kicks out Rambeu she does it protecting her the entire time. She lands not a scratch on her. Because she isn't actually interested in hurting anyone.

So intent is important right? Argue intent. Did Wanda intend to have her powers do things she has never seen them do to a scale they never have before? Did Wanda intend for everyone to get brain washed? Or was she a broken person retreating into the fantasy her grief manifested for her?


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 21:29:15


Post by: LunarSol


Wanda is definitely not aware that the happiness the people of Westview are expressing is part of the hex. She thinks they're happy with the life she's forced on them and appears visibly shaken when she learns otherwise.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/20 21:53:34


Post by: Gert


I liked the bit with the Illuminati. Was pretty cool to see John Krasinski as Reed Richards and Anson Mount as proper Black Bolt. The X-Men TV theme when Charles wheeled in was cool.
It was then even better when every single one got brutally murdered.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/22 07:26:17


Post by: Blackie


 LunarSol wrote:
Wanda is definitely not aware that the happiness the people of Westview are expressing is part of the hex. She thinks they're happy with the life she's forced on them and appears visibly shaken when she learns otherwise.


Exactly. I don't think it wasn't that hard to understand.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 creeping-deth87 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:


Is it to ok to create an AI that caused the deaths of thousands just because you think the world needed better/cleverer/bigger guns, which oh wait was the family business?


So, again, you're really understating the importance of intent here. Tony did not intend to create a genocidal machine. He doesn't even think he's anywhere near actually creating an AI, he's just as surprised as everyone else when Ultron first reveals himself to the Avengers at the party. By contrast absolutely no one can argue that Wanda did not intend to hold the people of Westview captive. It's clear from her first interaction with the SWORD agents that she knows exactly what she's doing and has no intention of stopping.


What about selling guns to criminals or enemy nations? The bomb who killed Wanda's familiy was from Stark Industries.


Literally the instant he finds out his weapons are being used by warlords and terrorists, he calls a press conference and declares his company is no longer making weapons.

I think you just hate the character for whatever reason, which is fine, but intent is absolutely relevant here. Wanda isn't doing anything by accident, but Tony does.


I'm sorry but for someone as brilliant as Tony I can't accept the whole "Oh, I was designing and selling weapons of mass destruction but I never thought someone "bad" could have used them". I think it's much more realistic to accept that Stark kept both his eyes shut in the name of profits, or maybe he just didn't care, and then just tried to avoid heat and responsabilities on him and his company later.

And maybe Ultron got out of hand but what he designed was ethically and morally unacceptable in a democracy anyway, and he ignored all the hints Cap gave him on purpose. I don't hate the character, I like it for what it is. Which is clearly not what you see in it.

I also disagree about Wanda, I genuinely believe she never wanted to hurt anybody before the fell under the influence of the Darkhold. I think she actually believed that she was giving Westview citizens a better life. The life she always wanted, a perfect one, so it had to be better than real life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:

You do understand that the 'vaguely eastern european war refugee' is supposed to make her sympathetic to audience, not alien, right?

I've absolutely no idea where you're getting 'she's a loner' from. She went from normal family life to possibly codependent relationship with her twin, to team member to possibly codependent relationship (but almost certainly unhealthy and toxic, given Wandavision). From what we're shown, she has _never_ been alone until Wandavision, and being left to her own devices is a vehicle for becoming a monster.



And yet that's what the writers did since the beginning, they alienated her. She never had a signficant relationship with any human being after her brother died. And when she was with her brother he was treated just like an instrument, not even a person. From what we're shown since she was part of the Avengers she was either "just" a team mate or even a prisoner, after Civil War. Never a "refugee", only an asset at best. And her lover was a machine. So yeah, I feel like she's been pretty much alone all the time.

She only had a normal life when she was a child, after war she never was normal. Also I can't even understand why you call her a monster. Even under the Darkhold she only killed soldiers and fighers who get in her way, some of them (see what the Illuminati did to their Strange) clearly not even "good". The only "innocent" person she wanted to kill or she actually killed was America, who even multiple versions of Strange also wanted to kill for "the greater good". I certainly feel more sympathy for Wanda, even the Scarlet Witch, than the Illuminati.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/24 15:15:46


Post by: Ahtman


 Blackie wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Wanda is definitely not aware that the happiness the people of Westview are expressing is part of the hex. She thinks they're happy with the life she's forced on them and appears visibly shaken when she learns otherwise.


Exactly. I don't think it wasn't that hard to understand.


I don't think she thought they were happy but I also don't think she thought they were sad. She was so ensconced in her illusion that she was oblivious to the possible harm she was causing. She had Vis and the kids and everything seemed alright and that is all she really wanted to know.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/24 19:53:20


Post by: Voss


Blackie wrote:Also I can't even understand why you call her a monster.

She tortured a town of innocent and unrelated people for months. When confronted, she came out, told everyone to leave her property (ie the town and its people) and consciously, willingly chose to go back in and continue to do it.

I have no other word but monster. There is no 'evil magic book' to blame for this. And her 'illusion' that she wasn't responsible and didn't do anything wrong doesn't last. She just starts treating the whole thing flippantly (see the 'stay-cation' and camera interview episodes), rather than looking for answers as to what's going on. Because at that point she knows enough, and just wants to wallow in her creation.

She only had a normal life when she was a child, after war she never was normal

No one has a 'normal' life. But we weren't discussing 'normality.' I was disputing 'she's a loner' when she had never, ever been alone, nor shown any desire to be (until after she went bad).

And yet that's what the writers did since the beginning, they alienated her.

They really didn't. They pick up infinity war with her off on a romantic foreign get-away to see if her new-found relationship would 'work.' That's such a cliche of normality its banal.
Then her friends and team-mates showed up to help. That's the opposite of alienation. 'Just' a teammate is a weird trivialization of one of the more significant relationships people can have.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/24 20:37:34


Post by: Blackie


Voss wrote:

She tortured a town of innocent and unrelated people for months. When confronted, she came out, told everyone to leave her property (ie the town and its people) and consciously, willingly chose to go back in and continue to do it.

I have no other word but monster.


I do. I believe she didn't want to cause any harm. I believe she thought her fairytale was actually a better life for the citizens, until she realized it wasn't and left.

I might see a monster in Tony Stark instead. He's a gun dealer who caused countless deaths. And maybe some of the damage he caused was unintentional but when you own a company that produces and sells weapons of mass destruction you can't say "oh, I wasn't aware of what was actually happening with our products". What happens if you create bombs? People are gonna use them. I found really hard to believe Tony didn't know he was causing massive harm by running his company, to me it seems much easier to believe that Wanda didn't know, or couldn't realize, she was hurting the citizens of Westview by giving them the life she created instead.

Also the idea of a massive surveillance system, which he wanted to create (and that might even already exist without people's knowledge), sounds pretty evil to me. Like real life evil, not just something written for a fantasy movie.

And the fact that he didn't directly killed anyone is also irrelevant, since he actually fought against the good superheroes at the airport, using everything he had against them. He couldn't hurt any of them because they were all as powerful as him, unlike the fighter/monks from Kamar Taj, who didn't stand a chance against the witch. He and his comrades couldn't hurt those superheroes becuase they didn't manage to do it. Black Panther in particular clearly wanted to kill The Winter Soldier. Choosing to fight against Cap, which is the embodiment of good, might already be the treshold to define someone as a monster. To me it is. If it is for you too, then I can understand why you might think of Wanda that way. Otherwise I don't.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/24 22:45:37


Post by: H.B.M.C.


She didn't mean to cause them harm, however when it became apparent that she was holding people against their will and that she knew the construct (the hex, or whatever) was something she was sustaining she... chose to continue it anyway, even threatening SWORD agents to stay away.

She was not the good guy.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 00:38:43


Post by: Voss


 Blackie wrote:
Voss wrote:

She tortured a town of innocent and unrelated people for months. When confronted, she came out, told everyone to leave her property (ie the town and its people) and consciously, willingly chose to go back in and continue to do it.

I have no other word but monster.


I do. I believe she didn't want to cause any harm. I believe she thought her fairytale was actually a better life for the citizens, until she realized it wasn't and left.

You're pretty blatantly wrong. When she wasn't aware, she was concerned. Trying to figure out what was going on and why, because she was afraid for herself and Vision. At _no_ point did she think things were a 'better life.'

After she became aware, she openly did not care. She willingly chose to continue. At that point she could have worked with SWORD to shut it down, not threaten them to stay away from what was hers.
Whether she 'wanted' to cause harm became irrelevant at that point. She willingly chose to continue doing harm.


I don't really care enough about Tony to argue with you about it. This, though...
Choosing to fight against Cap, which is the embodiment of good, might already be the treshold to define someone as a monster. To me it is. If it is for you too, then I can understand why you might think of Wanda that way. Otherwise I don't.

Cap isn't vaguely the 'embodiment of good' He's a propaganda symbol who happened to do some good things in what was probably the most morally easy war to ever happen. (Gosh, are the genocidal aggressors bad guys? I think they are. Best fight them.)

In Civil War, Cap's motivations were entirely selfish. He wanted to protect his buddy. That's it. That was his entire argument. Regardless of the fact that he was a violent assassin who could be triggered and kill more people at any time. That isn't good. Its understandable, but from an 'embodiment of goodness' perspective, its pretty careless, even reprehensible. But there isn't any moral dimension to his decision. It was just 'friend in danger from the authorities, friendship wins.'

And that isn't even the first time- his personal connections overrode orders, morality and sense repeatedly through his films. That can be admirable but it isn't 'Good'


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 02:31:50


Post by: Lance845


That was NOT caps entire argument.

First, his argument was that he should be the one to bring in Bucky because he is the least likely to get killed doing it. Then the people sent to arrest Bucky never intended to arrest him. Their job was to kill on sight. No trial. Just execute a factually innocent man for a crime he didn't commit.

Then, when Bucky was in prison because caps intervention resulted in an arrest instead of an assassination he figures out that the bits don't add up and someone else is doing things.

In the aftermath of that, cap tries to find the actual bomber who seems to be trying to wake up a group of winter soldiers and Tony doesn't give a single gak about the mounting evidence and decides to try to fight the people trying to catch and stop the actual bad guy who all evidence is pointing towards trying to unleash a group of super soldier assassins.

Tony perfectly exemplifies everything wrong with the Sokovia Accords that Cap argues in the movie. What happens when they send us somewhere and we don't agree with the mission? "Go arrest these people trying to save lives." What happens when we need to be somewhere and they won't send us? "Cap is trying to catch the actual villain and Ross and Co don't care even when Tony gets the evidence that Bucky didn't do it.

Tony as a tool of the Accords does what he is told and as a result of fighting the actual heroes trying to stop the actual villain cause even more destruction and the crippling of his best friend when they all could have showed up in Russia and stopped Zemo together.

Cap was 100% right the entire time in Civil War. Tony was the short sighted, selfish, guilty conscious but refusing to take personal responsibility piece of gak he has been the entire time.

Steve Rogers is the Moral Compass of Marvel. When he says something going on isn't right, you should listen.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 07:23:39


Post by: Blackie


I made a comparison with Tony Stark only because, like Wanda, he's an actual villain in a previous MCU episode.

Never said that Wanda was good, what she did in WandaVision and Multiverse of Madness is definitely wrong, and her motivations were entirely selfish. I just don't understand why she has to be considered a monster, who deserves no emphaty, when several other superheroes did real acts of evil and didn't get the same label.

What about Thor when he executed Thanos? He was harmeless, not a threat to anyone and yet Thor executed him anyway, of course without facing any consequence. No one deserves to be executed without trial, and actually I can even argue that no one deserves to be executed after a trial either since death penalty is illegal in the vast majority of the civilized world. Thor was definitely a monster for that.

What about Hawkeye going berserk after the blip, living only for the bloodshed? And before someone replies: "But... but... but those were bad guys!!!!" we don't know anything about most of the people who Hawkeye actually killed. Maybe even some kids that were tricked or forced to be there, or stupid/desperate enough to join a criminal organization. And again how many of those "criminals" actually deserved a death penalty? The fun part is that Hawkeye's victims never did anything to him or his family, he only wanted to kill someone to justify his existence. That's more than enough to make him a monster.

Black Panther wanted to kill Bucky for personal revenge, also without a trial and with little evidence in his hands. Jelena wanted to kill Hawkeye just based on rumors.

But no, those are good guys who maybe just "lost it". Even if there's no turning back from their actions. Controlling the mind of someone for some days is something unforgivable instead, enough to define someone a monster. I don't justify her actions or condone her, I just understand her.

I think the strenght of some recent MCU episodes comes from characters like the modern Wanda or the Tony Stark in Age of Ultron and Civil War. Multiverse of Madness and WandaVision are IMHO the MCU's peaks so far.

Also Thanos was great since he was never evil, as he actually believe he was saving the world, just mad.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 07:31:21


Post by: AduroT


Cap was 100% right the entire time in Civil War.


Eh, maybe 75% right. Zemo didn’t actually want to wake up a bunch of Winter Soldiers after all…


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 07:51:28


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Lance845 wrote:
That was NOT caps entire argument.

First, his argument was that he should be the one to bring in Bucky because he is the least likely to get killed doing it. Then the people sent to arrest Bucky never intended to arrest him. Their job was to kill on sight. No trial. Just execute a factually innocent man for a crime he didn't commit.

Then, when Bucky was in prison because caps intervention resulted in an arrest instead of an assassination he figures out that the bits don't add up and someone else is doing things.

In the aftermath of that, cap tries to find the actual bomber who seems to be trying to wake up a group of winter soldiers and Tony doesn't give a single gak about the mounting evidence and decides to try to fight the people trying to catch and stop the actual bad guy who all evidence is pointing towards trying to unleash a group of super soldier assassins.

Tony perfectly exemplifies everything wrong with the Sokovia Accords that Cap argues in the movie. What happens when they send us somewhere and we don't agree with the mission? "Go arrest these people trying to save lives." What happens when we need to be somewhere and they won't send us? "Cap is trying to catch the actual villain and Ross and Co don't care even when Tony gets the evidence that Bucky didn't do it.

Tony as a tool of the Accords does what he is told and as a result of fighting the actual heroes trying to stop the actual villain cause even more destruction and the crippling of his best friend when they all could have showed up in Russia and stopped Zemo together.

Cap was 100% right the entire time in Civil War. Tony was the short sighted, selfish, guilty conscious but refusing to take personal responsibility piece of gak he has been the entire time.

Steve Rogers is the Moral Compass of Marvel. When he says something going on isn't right, you should listen.


I’d argue Tony was seeing the Bigger Picture.

The Accords May have been imperfect. But Tony is the only one intimately familiar with the harm Zero Oversight can lead to. With Cap hurtling off as he did? Well you’ve done a good job of explaining his justification for doing it. But we the audience have a perspective those in-universe just don’t.

Cap is kind of retreading The First Avenger. Disobeying orders to save Bucky and who knows how many others. That’s what he does. He’s genuinely more of a Hero than a Soldier.

But in doing so, he’s proving those who demanded the Accords right. His actions could easily become an argument for even more restrictions. Tony sees that. The important is 100% Cap’s fault. Completely. Tony offers to just take him in. Tony came ready for a fight, but wanting to avoid it. Hence taking Spidey along to assist in capture.

This is all what makes the MCU so good. Motivations. Even if they’re a bit Out There, folk still have reasons for what they’re doing. Even if the audience firmly disagree with a given motivation? It’s still there. Like Wanda going 27 levels of insane. We may think they’re monstrous motivations, but they’re still there, and most even have some level of sympathy.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 08:17:40


Post by: Blackie


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


I’d argue Tony was seeing the Bigger Picture.



By this logic Thanos might have been right as well as he was the only one who was seeing the bigger picture.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 08:52:49


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Blackie wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


I’d argue Tony was seeing the Bigger Picture.



By this logic Thanos might have been right as well as he was the only one who was seeing the bigger picture.


By Thanos’ own standards? Yes. Exactly that. But he was of course insane. Remember his campaign came first, with gathering the stones seeming the logical conclusion to that. So he’d likely be so far gone down his rabbit hole, he wouldn’t be thinking “but…couldn’t I use them to reorder the Universe so everything resource wise is doubled up, or becomes infinitely renewable/abundant, so overpopulation which is only a factor of limited resources becomes a thing of the past?”.

This is what I’m driving at though. Bad motivations or poorly thought through motivations are still motivations, and the MCU provides those.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 12:40:25


Post by: Lance845


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
That was NOT caps entire argument.

First, his argument was that he should be the one to bring in Bucky because he is the least likely to get killed doing it. Then the people sent to arrest Bucky never intended to arrest him. Their job was to kill on sight. No trial. Just execute a factually innocent man for a crime he didn't commit.

Then, when Bucky was in prison because caps intervention resulted in an arrest instead of an assassination he figures out that the bits don't add up and someone else is doing things.

In the aftermath of that, cap tries to find the actual bomber who seems to be trying to wake up a group of winter soldiers and Tony doesn't give a single gak about the mounting evidence and decides to try to fight the people trying to catch and stop the actual bad guy who all evidence is pointing towards trying to unleash a group of super soldier assassins.

Tony perfectly exemplifies everything wrong with the Sokovia Accords that Cap argues in the movie. What happens when they send us somewhere and we don't agree with the mission? "Go arrest these people trying to save lives." What happens when we need to be somewhere and they won't send us? "Cap is trying to catch the actual villain and Ross and Co don't care even when Tony gets the evidence that Bucky didn't do it.

Tony as a tool of the Accords does what he is told and as a result of fighting the actual heroes trying to stop the actual villain cause even more destruction and the crippling of his best friend when they all could have showed up in Russia and stopped Zemo together.

Cap was 100% right the entire time in Civil War. Tony was the short sighted, selfish, guilty conscious but refusing to take personal responsibility piece of gak he has been the entire time.

Steve Rogers is the Moral Compass of Marvel. When he says something going on isn't right, you should listen.


I’d argue Tony was seeing the Bigger Picture.

The Accords May have been imperfect. But Tony is the only one intimately familiar with the harm Zero Oversight can lead to. With Cap hurtling off as he did? Well you’ve done a good job of explaining his justification for doing it. But we the audience have a perspective those in-universe just don’t.

Cap is kind of retreading The First Avenger. Disobeying orders to save Bucky and who knows how many others. That’s what he does. He’s genuinely more of a Hero than a Soldier.

But in doing so, he’s proving those who demanded the Accords right. His actions could easily become an argument for even more restrictions. Tony sees that. The important is 100% Cap’s fault. Completely. Tony offers to just take him in. Tony came ready for a fight, but wanting to avoid it. Hence taking Spidey along to assist in capture.

This is all what makes the MCU so good. Motivations. Even if they’re a bit Out There, folk still have reasons for what they’re doing. Even if the audience firmly disagree with a given motivation? It’s still there. Like Wanda going 27 levels of insane. We may think they’re monstrous motivations, but they’re still there, and most even have some level of sympathy.


What important is that NONE of the events used to justify the Accords are caps fault. HALF are Tony's.

TONY unleashed Ultron because despite seeing the bigger picture he doesn't actually plan well enough to puts checks and balances on himself. TONY needs to be held accountable and TONY never is. Which by the way is another argument Cap has about the Accords. This doesn't actually hold us accountable. it just shifts the blame. Now it's not US responsible for our actions. It's THEM for sending us. Perfect for Tony. Every time Tony gets involved in something extra things are destroyed as a result of Tonys own actions. More destruction occurs because of his plan.

Every time Cap gets involved he minimizes losses and contains the damage to the best of his abilities. Cap plans a retreat with the biggest destruction at the air port resulting from Vision acting on Tony's orders. Tony CHOOSES to throw the hulk through a building leveling it. Tony CHOOSES to build a satellite full of weaponized drones that he can call on at will. If Cap knew that satellite existed what do you think he would have said and done about it? "Holding a gun to the head of every person in the world and calling it protection." Tony literally builds a copy of Hydras plan at his own personal control. Tony is LITERALLY a monster.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 14:30:13


Post by: LunarSol


I do appreciate that Cap is the only person that's seen actually reading the accords. I suspect Tony did as well though.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 14:43:20


Post by: Easy E


This is all great discussion in a general Marvel thread, but what about the Multiverse of Madness?

Is it so bad that it can not even generate its own discussion of content?


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 15:49:48


Post by: LunarSol


So, I'll reiterate what I said before. Elizabeth Olsen really doesn't sell the heel turn and results in the plot of the film feeling a little weak. Her plan is full of holes, some of which are immediately pointed out and her conviction just doesn't back up the lengths she goes to.

That said, the film itself is one of the most creative and fun things I've sat through in a while. It's clever, both in its world logic, cinematography, and special effects. It's got that glorious haunted house thrill ride vibe the whole way through that left me with that same thrilling glee and the artistry involved, even if I was a little let down by the plot and character work.

As a Dr Strange solo film I vastly prefer it to the original and really manages to take the character in all the wild directions the first film shows he's capable of, but never fully embraces. It's good, its fun, its flawed. I loved it, but I'm not going to argue with anyone who felt let down by its weaker elements either.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 17:26:43


Post by: Grimskul


I'll say that it's better than it's alternate universe self, the Multiverse of Morbius.

It's Morbin time!


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 20:22:07


Post by: Ahtman


The Darkhold probably should have manifested a bit more than just making her fingers black: black eyes, weird veins across her skin, ect. Have a moment where she is slightly separated from it and you see the horror bits start to recede. It would have made the heel turn more reasonable and given a nice visual cue.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/25 21:16:32


Post by: LunarSol


I think she's fine visually, I mean Olsen doesn't sell the character's decisions. In the three scenes where she does any significant amount of talking, she doesn't come across with the conviction that backs up the carnage that follows. Leading Wong to her throne of evil and even resolving to destroy it all along with herself just doesn't command the intensity that lines of with the extreme actions she takes.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/26 02:54:10


Post by: Voss


 Lance845 wrote:
That was NOT caps entire argument.

First, his argument was that he should be the one to bring in Bucky because he is the least likely to get killed doing it. Then the people sent to arrest Bucky never intended to arrest him. Their job was to kill on sight. No trial. Just execute a factually innocent man for a crime he didn't commit.

Yeah. No. Bucky wasn't 'a factually innocent man.' He was an extremely guilty man coincidentally innocent of _this_ specific crime. But he had a long, long, long history of murder, sabotage and assorted espionage crap, and everyone had very good reason to believe he was a suspect, and absolutely solid reasons to arrest him in general (and put him down if he resisted), because he did actually do loads of horrible crimes.


Then, when Bucky was in prison because caps intervention resulted in an arrest instead of an assassination he figures out that the bits don't add up and someone else is doing things.

In the aftermath of that, cap tries to find the actual bomber who seems to be trying to wake up a group of winter soldiers and Tony doesn't give a single gak about the mounting evidence and decides to try to fight the people trying to catch and stop the actual bad guy who all evidence is pointing towards trying to unleash a group of super soldier assassins.

Tony perfectly exemplifies everything wrong with the Sokovia Accords that Cap argues in the movie. What happens when they send us somewhere and we don't agree with the mission? "Go arrest these people trying to save lives." What happens when we need to be somewhere and they won't send us? "Cap is trying to catch the actual villain and Ross and Co don't care even when Tony gets the evidence that Bucky didn't do it.

Tony as a tool of the Accords does what he is told and as a result of fighting the actual heroes trying to stop the actual villain cause even more destruction and the crippling of his best friend when they all could have showed up in Russia and stopped Zemo together.

Cap was 100% right the entire time in Civil War. Tony was the short sighted, selfish, guilty conscious but refusing to take personal responsibility piece of gak he has been the entire time.

I absolutely don't agree, partly I don't care about the personal crap about these two character and their back story. Bucky is absolutely a murderer, and the Imperius defense isn't something the world state of the MCU would take seriously. Cap was the short sighted and selfish one- it was ALLL about his buddy, and all about Caps guilty conscience for leaving him behind back in the day. There is very little to indicate that Cap would care about ANY of this if it hadn't affected Bucky.

Look, the Accords aren't great. But they're entirely based on how nations behave. You don't send tank battalion to wreck up other countries in pursuit of secret goals. (And the Avengers are basically walking tank battalions themselves, except the spies, which have bloody operational records that are also problematic). The nations are entirely reasonable in wanting nothing like the Hulk wrecking the Nigerian capital again. [That the incident in Civil War itself is muddled and minor by comparison is part of its problem with the film].
The truly laughable part is the idea that the Avengers somehow have to 'sign on' to the Accords. No country is going to care what their opinion is, they're private citizens (and/or American operatives, depending on if Captain is being used as a honorary title or a rank he hasn't actually earned, and who the SHIELD operatives belong to at this point, after they've outed themselves as working for a Hydra infested intelligence agency with wtf??? for oversight and non-specific allegiance). They don't get a vote on whether or not nations are going to allow them in to wreck their territory, rather than just passing on intelligence like rational people.

Steve Rogers is the Moral Compass of Marvel. When he says something going on isn't right, you should listen.

Bollocks. Except for Infinity War when he can't (and gives a grand total of 6 people advice about the importance of living their lives when he himself does not), Cap bounces and abandons everybody and does none of the real work rebuilding (which is frankly why Falcon and Winter Soldier happens at all). He's great if you need someone to jump on a grenade in the moment, but MCU Cap is utterly horrible for being there to clean up the messes, or even function politically or socially. That isn't someone you listen to. That's a bullet catcher you put at the front of an operation. And the complete messes that are the aftermath of their invasions of sovereign nations (that he's leading) are real good examples that justify the Accords in the first place.

Steve is a grunt (well, propaganda tool) with magic strength, and presumably good tactical skills (something that's hard to judge in a film given how little writers know about such things). That's... about it.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/26 03:25:05


Post by: Lance845


Voss wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
That was NOT caps entire argument.

First, his argument was that he should be the one to bring in Bucky because he is the least likely to get killed doing it. Then the people sent to arrest Bucky never intended to arrest him. Their job was to kill on sight. No trial. Just execute a factually innocent man for a crime he didn't commit.

Yeah. No. Bucky wasn't 'a factually innocent man.' He was an extremely guilty man coincidentally innocent of _this_ specific crime. But he had a long, long, long history of murder, sabotage and assorted espionage crap, and everyone had very good reason to believe he was a suspect, and absolutely solid reasons to arrest him in general (and put him down if he resisted), because he did actually do loads of horrible crimes.


A literally mind controlled person acting against their will is not guilty of the crimes committed. He didn't do those crimes. His controllers did.

Then, when Bucky was in prison because caps intervention resulted in an arrest instead of an assassination he figures out that the bits don't add up and someone else is doing things.

In the aftermath of that, cap tries to find the actual bomber who seems to be trying to wake up a group of winter soldiers and Tony doesn't give a single gak about the mounting evidence and decides to try to fight the people trying to catch and stop the actual bad guy who all evidence is pointing towards trying to unleash a group of super soldier assassins.

Tony perfectly exemplifies everything wrong with the Sokovia Accords that Cap argues in the movie. What happens when they send us somewhere and we don't agree with the mission? "Go arrest these people trying to save lives." What happens when we need to be somewhere and they won't send us? "Cap is trying to catch the actual villain and Ross and Co don't care even when Tony gets the evidence that Bucky didn't do it.

Tony as a tool of the Accords does what he is told and as a result of fighting the actual heroes trying to stop the actual villain cause even more destruction and the crippling of his best friend when they all could have showed up in Russia and stopped Zemo together.

Cap was 100% right the entire time in Civil War. Tony was the short sighted, selfish, guilty conscious but refusing to take personal responsibility piece of gak he has been the entire time.

I absolutely don't agree, partly I don't care about the personal crap about these two character and their back story. Bucky is absolutely a murderer, and the Imperius defense isn't something the world state of the MCU would take seriously. Cap was the short sighted and selfish one- it was ALLL about his buddy, and all about Caps guilty conscience for leaving him behind back in the day. There is very little to indicate that Cap would care about ANY of this if it hadn't affected Bucky.


You mean besides the reason he wanted to go to war in the first place? All the times he threw himself into danger to save others. Proved the quality of his character. You might remember that Cap decided he would fight the entirety of shield on his own if they were all hydra to stop project insight. Not to save bucky. To save everyone.

Look, the Accords aren't great. But they're entirely based on how nations behave. You don't send tank battalion to wreck up other countries in pursuit of secret goals. (And the Avengers are basically walking tank battalions themselves, except the spies, which have bloody operational records that are also problematic). The nations are entirely reasonable in wanting nothing like the Hulk wrecking the Nigerian capital again. [That the incident in Civil War itself is muddled and minor by comparison is part of its problem with the film].
The truly laughable part is the idea that the Avengers somehow have to 'sign on' to the Accords. No country is going to care what their opinion is, they're private citizens (and/or American operatives, depending on if Captain is being used as a honorary title or a rank he hasn't actually earned, and who the SHIELD operatives belong to at this point, after they've outed themselves as working for a Hydra infested intelligence agency with wtf??? for oversight and non-specific allegiance). They don't get a vote on whether or not nations are going to allow them in to wreck their territory, rather than just passing on intelligence like rational people.


Them signing the accords isn't about their approval. It's about getting them to sign up. If they don't sign up they retire or become fugitives. If they do sign up they become agents of the accords.

Steve Rogers is the Moral Compass of Marvel. When he says something going on isn't right, you should listen.

Bollocks. Except for Infinity War when he can't (and gives a grand total of 6 people advice about the importance of living their lives when he himself does not), Cap bounces and abandons everybody and does none of the real work rebuilding (which is frankly why Falcon and Winter Soldier happens at all). He's great if you need someone to jump on a grenade in the moment, but MCU Cap is utterly horrible for being there to clean up the messes, or even function politically or socially. That isn't someone you listen to. That's a bullet catcher you put at the front of an operation. And the complete messes that are the aftermath of their invasions of sovereign nations (that he's leading) are real good examples that justify the Accords in the first place.

Steve is a grunt (well, propaganda tool) with magic strength, and presumably good tactical skills (something that's hard to judge in a film given how little writers know about such things). That's... about it.


I think you watch different movies.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/05/26 07:02:17


Post by: Blackie


 LunarSol wrote:
So, I'll reiterate what I said before. Elizabeth Olsen really doesn't sell the heel turn and results in the plot of the film feeling a little weak. Her plan is full of holes, some of which are immediately pointed out and her conviction just doesn't back up the lengths she goes to.


Wanda isn't the typical super villain taken from a comic, she's a desperate lonely person who's under the influence of a book that corrupts the people's souls. I don't know if her plan's holes are intended but they're certainly realistic all things considered.

Wanda is a broken person who went against anything and anyone to fulfil her goal, which was simply something to justify her existence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:
It's good, its fun, its flawed. I loved it, but I'm not going to argue with anyone who felt let down by its weaker elements either.


I have the impression that for some people the movie's weaker elements are conceptual, rather than how it was done. Making Wanda a real villain is apparently unbereable for someone, it reminds me of those who criticized the last season of Game of Thrones not because it was rushed and poorly written, but because they couldn't stand an evil/mad Daenerys. I think that, just like Daenerys, Wanda's storyline was consistent with the character instead. Also, several MCU fans love to see "tv series style" episodes, in which the director's hand is invisibile, while there's a strong Sam Raimi's presence in this movie.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/24 15:50:41


Post by: Shadow Walker


Finally got to watch it. Much better than a first Strange movie, and overall one of the better MCU ones. After googling who the woman from the post credit scene is I already cannot wait for the third movie.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/25 17:18:04


Post by: Voss


Finally got around to it.

Boy howdy, those are probably some nice effects and scenery in the astral plane at the beginning of the film. Too bad they all wooshed by and I didn't get to look at them.

An hour of terrible 'motivations' and 'temptations.' That's a lot of yadda yadda to chew through to get to the actual film (roughly an hour).

Why is the big magic battle a straightforward siege with energy blasts? Why does literally no one have any sense of subtlety, esoteric magics, attacking from dimensional angles that aren't defended or just some impressive spell vs counterspell? I spent most of this week watching a D&D liveplay session that was soooo much deeper and more impressive than this crap. And more emotionally invested, too.

Woo. Two minute jaunt through the multiverse ending in vomit. Yay.

Made me laugh: Bruce Campbell cameo (pizza ball vender) made to fight himself. Then immediately horrified that its going to go on for _3 weeks_

Still don't care about a fairly standard failed relationship, that didn't work out for perfectly normal human reasons.

Wait, Mordo tried to kill Strange? Multiple times? When did we skip the far more interesting stuff? Former friends with real motivations behind their actions? And lasting consequences that won't be immediately nullified by 'not our universe, don't care, doesn't matter'


Seriously, was the whole thing with the illuminati meant to be funny? 'Telepathic trilling' was an odd choice of subtitles, but the whole sequence seemed more a dark humor parody than something to take seriously.

Also, "He's not like all the other Stevens" made me think of Steven Universe, especially the alternate timeline Stevens. "I learned to stay true to myself, by watching myself die."

Musical battle was cool, it was the kind of creativity I was looking for in basically the entire rest of the movie. At least the scenery finally slowed down and we got to appreciate it a bit.

And after an hour and forty five minutes of special effects, everyone learned the obvious, glaring lessons that didn't need teaching. Huzzah. Still 20 minutes of runtime (including credits), so I guess we'll beat it all to death.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/25 23:54:20


Post by: Flinty


I agree. It was shiny, but for me was a couple of hours of “well that may as well happen”.

Nice use of the British Museum for the illuminati fight though.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/26 14:40:57


Post by: creeping-deth87


Agreed on all counts, Voss. MoM was a steaming pile.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/26 16:10:38


Post by: Flinty


As always, Ryan George speaks truth!




Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/26 16:38:08


Post by: Blackie


Voss wrote:


...And after an hour and forty five minutes of special effects, everyone learned the obvious, glaring lessons that didn't need teaching. Huzzah. Still 20 minutes of runtime (including credits), so I guess we'll beat it all to death.


What you described pretty much sums up 99.9% of the superheroes movies. We take them for what they are.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/26 16:46:40


Post by: Voss


 Blackie wrote:
Voss wrote:


...And after an hour and forty five minutes of special effects, everyone learned the obvious, glaring lessons that didn't need teaching. Huzzah. Still 20 minutes of runtime (including credits), so I guess we'll beat it all to death.


What you described pretty much sums up 99.9% of the superheroes movies. We take them for what they are.

Not the good ones. Unfortunately both Strange movies prize effects over characters and motivations.

I'm not even sure what 'take them for what they are' means. If it means 'don't think about it and shut up,' then... no.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/26 17:51:13


Post by: Blackie


It means they're superheroes movies, aka beer and pretzels (or popcorn) movies. They all are pretty bad compared to something like Cameron's, Tarantino's, Ritchie's, Chazelle's average works, but it doesn't mean they can't be fun. That's what I meant.

I liked MoM more than the average Marvel installment (which I typically don't mind, don't get me wrong), because for once I watched a superheroes movie that was directed by an actual director, one that I love, and I definitely recognized his hand .

Plot and writing wasn't dumber that anything that was released before. How stupid was Spiderman for example? But seeing all the old villains/spiderman once again was great, regardless of the plot. The final spell could simply have been: "Make everyone forget that Peter Parker is Spiderman", rather than "Make everyone forget about Peter Parker". Problem solved, but no tragic finale then.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/27 14:15:01


Post by: Eihnlazer


The movie was fine. I would definitely say that 616 Strange is, while not dumb, definitely not on the tactical genius level.

We see that he has moments of brilliance, but he's also got alot of points where he's clearly overconfident and takes alot of risks he doesnt need too.

Barring the obvious plot holes (that your going to find in any superhero movie), I think they did a fine job at setting up future installments, which is what all the MCU movies are really after to begin with.

A fun romp through the marvel-verse with more stories to come.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/27 14:28:28


Post by: odinsgrandson


It was really good to see how very Sam Raimi the film was.

I think I was expecting it to be more Spider-Man than Evil Dead, but it was good to see such an Evil Dead super hero film.


Wanda's about face character arc after leaving Wandavision is justified, but not getting to see the steps in between made it deeply unfulfilling. And she basically repeated her arc in Wandavision, but this time having caused much more irreparable damage.


But once you accept the Scarlet Witch that the movie presents, I think it starts working.

America's journey was to become the punchy super-powered hero from the comics (rather than start out there). I'm okay with that. Even the fully powered America in the comics gets herself outmatched when she's up against something like Scarlet Witch.

The end of the movie with the eye felt very Raimi- the post credit scene damaged its impact pretty hard.


I rather liked the appearance of the Illuminati, even if they were ultimately a mix of obstacle and canon fodder.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/27 14:50:01


Post by: LunarSol


Plot was definitely not the strongest of the MCU. It has some very high points but is let down by a villain that's trying to be sympathetic when her actions really can't be.

That said, the movie is fun and full of great cinematography and clever uses of its playground world. I left kind of thrilled with the whole thing, even if I was kind of let down by the actual plot, which just doesn't hold up to any level of scrutiny.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/27 19:12:44


Post by: MDSW


I do appreciate them making the plot easy to follow, without making it childish. I enjoyed it.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/27 19:14:37


Post by: Voss


 odinsgrandson wrote:

But once you accept the Scarlet Witch that the movie presents, I think it starts working.

The problem is, there isn't any reason to accept that Scarlet Witch. She's made herself a new hex (and says so when she peels back the apple trees to the dead trees), so she could have made herself new kids.
Or, you know, actual real people she lost. Or gone all PePe Le Pew on NewVision. You know, something more serious.
Even then, the idea that she needs a demonstration to understand why murdering people to steal children that she didn't have is bad is... fairly preposterous.

I still think WandaVision had a terrible ending, but this version of Wanda apparently learned nothing from that entire thing. And decided that more was better.


America's journey was to become the punchy super-powered hero from the comics (rather than start out there).

?? How ?? She's luggage/macguffin for 90+% of the film, is told the power was inside her all along (that works ), and then is shuffled off to play with a Slingie like all the other sorcery students, and her own story was simply abandoned (if she can use her powers now, wouldn't she go looking for her moms?)

Bonus- the way Strange interacted with her was bizarrely alienating. She was always 'kid,' never America or Miss Chavez (which I wouldn't really expect, but still think of as normal when interacting with an older teen). And despite being not-quite-corrected on it multiple times, 'your mothers/moms' always came out of Strange's mouth as 'your parents.' No matter how many times she said 'moms.'

The end of the movie with the eye felt very Raimi- the post credit scene damaged its impact pretty hard.

The eye felt like a gag with no lasting consequences.

I rather liked the appearance of the Illuminati, even if they were ultimately a mix of obstacle and canon fodder.

They also felt like a gag. Less obstacle and more filler to let Wanda catch up and show off, but also a pointer to
a) a much better story with Mordo that we don't get to see and
b) the next leg of the hero's journey.

c) maybe also a parable about the fascism of superpowers, but the film didn't breathe enough for that (and Falcon/Winter Soldier had enough of that with Baron Zemo and did it better). Also arrogance, but we got that with Bad Stephen, and demonstrated again by this Stephen, (and will hopefully get paid back in the next film).


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/27 19:32:24


Post by: Lance845


What Wanda did or didn't do isn't based in logic. A corrupt and evil spell book got it's talons into somebody who is both exceedingly powerful and a total amateur.

Everything it drove her to do was about maximizing destruction and corruption of her.

It isn't about how easy it would have been to magic up some new kids. Easy and the kids wasn't the goal. Destruction and corruption was.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/27 19:39:53


Post by: LunarSol


 Lance845 wrote:
What Wanda did or didn't do isn't based in logic. A corrupt and evil spell book got it's talons into somebody who is both exceedingly powerful and a total amateur.

Everything it drove her to do was about maximizing destruction and corruption of her.

It isn't about how easy it would have been to magic up some new kids. Easy and the kids wasn't the goal. Destruction and corruption was.


The issue I have is the movie spends a bunch of time trying to make her seem logical. The scenes where she tries to present rational arguments don't work. The crazy/corrupt stuff totally works.

I'm definitely of the camp that revels in the fun that have with it, but I also totally get that people get hung up on all the scenes where she presents very flimsy logic as something that would generate sympathy.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/27 19:55:02


Post by: Blackie


The eye might have lasting consequence. It could be a sign that Strange is corrupted and might have to fight that in the next installments or become evil himself.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/27 20:45:16


Post by: Voss


 LunarSol wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
What Wanda did or didn't do isn't based in logic. A corrupt and evil spell book got it's talons into somebody who is both exceedingly powerful and a total amateur.

Everything it drove her to do was about maximizing destruction and corruption of her.

It isn't about how easy it would have been to magic up some new kids. Easy and the kids wasn't the goal. Destruction and corruption was.


The issue I have is the movie spends a bunch of time trying to make her seem logical. The scenes where she tries to present rational arguments don't work. The crazy/corrupt stuff totally works.


Exactly this.
I don't care about the magic book that... she found in the WandaVision epilogue (or offscreen, I'm honestly not sure, and honestly don't care). She was more convincingly evil during WandaVision without the stupid book.
The film also spends too much time not caring about the book and trying to rationalize motives out of basically nothing.

The film burns _an hour_ with the concept of 'this is Wanda being nice.' And then tries to build some vague symmetry around the idea that Strange is equally obsessed with a co-worker relationship that just didn't work out before the first movie even starts. It tries to draw some moral equivalence between the two, but mostly just underlines the fact that neither of these relationships should matter this much to the characters.

The one who got away when you were 30 or so, is something to be vaguely sad about at their wedding, sure. Or feel maudlin about if you're having drinks in a restaurant you used to go to a lot. But... that's about it.
The kids you made up while you mind controlled a town, had a creepy accelerated growth and existed for like three days tops while you were grieving and torturing people is not something you should want to recreate with mass murder. Its just not something we needed to learn today.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/27 21:01:56


Post by: Lance845


So I have a lot of problems with the film. It's Sam Raminess that people seem to love I think is it's weakness.

But the film spells out what is happening with her in explicit terms over and over and over again.

From the very first shot of the Darkhold Strange says that book corrupts everything and everyone it touches. In Karar taj he says it's not her it's the book and she could still turn back.

Wong spells out that the book is the issue.

They say spirit walking is corrosive to the soul.

Over and over and over again the movie says "This is the book ruining her". Her logic doesn't hold up, and they never pretended that it did. You have to be ignoring the rest of that stuff to try and focus in on her broken logic. Her logic is broken on purpose. It's how a person who is blinded by evil justifies their crazy to themselves. Of course it's flimsy.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/28 11:07:42


Post by: Stevefamine


That was a pretty bad movie, I think I went in with the idea it was going to be 10/10. I never watched wanda vision so it probably made the movie unwatchable from my understanding of it.

I guess I had too high standards for a Dr Strange film. They'll probably make another film though

I'll stick with the original Dr Strange. Acting was fantastic on his part in this


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/28 11:23:16


Post by: Blackie


Missing WandaVision is like watching a New Hope and then Return of the Jedi, skipping The Empire Strikes Back. It can be done, but the watcher is going to lose a lot of contents then.

I thought the first Dr.Strange was terrible, one of the worst MCU installments, and I typically rate the best MCU ones are decent/good movies at best (7/10 and a couple of 8/10, definitely nothing near 10/10) so I really enjoyed watching a Sam Raimi's movie rather than just another MCU episode.

Of course it's still a superheroes movie, so it's not perfect by any means. But compared to the most recent Marvel and DC releases? I mean compared to Black Widow, Wonder Woman 1984, Spiderman, Eternals, The Batman, Morbius and Venom off top of my head? I thought this Dr. Strange was a huge step forward compared to any of those movies, only Shang Chi was close in terms of enjoyment.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/28 12:10:16


Post by: Geifer


 Blackie wrote:
Missing WandaVision is like watching a New Hope and then Return of the Jedi, skipping The Empire Strikes Back. It can be done, but the watcher is going to lose a lot of contents then.


Perhaps less so if you're not too concerned with Wanda. I didn't watch WandaVision, but I liked Multiverse of Madness just fine and never felt like I was missing anything. Of course I was going into it expecting a Dr. Strange movie, and ended up getting just that. I was only marginally aware that Wanda was in it before I saw it.

As a selfcontained movie it works just fine, going by my own experience. Wanda wants kids, Wanda reads the Necronomicon, things go sideways. I don't think you actually need further context to understand and enjoy the movie.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 07:16:18


Post by: Blackie


I made a comparison with SW because as a kid I watched The Empire Strikes Back first and loved it. I only needed to know that a group of rebels were fighting an evil empire, and figured that out in 5 minutes. Now, chances that people are familiar with the MCU are almost 100% so I shifted the analogy to Return of the Jedi instead, and in that case there's a bit more info from the previous installment that is necessary to get the full experience, although it definitely works as a standalone movie.

I watched Dr. Strange in The Multiverse of Madness a second time yesterday, this time at home, and I loved the movie just like the first time, maybe even more. Definitely going to watch it again in the future.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 09:47:25


Post by: Geifer


Not sure the Star Wars comparison works for me. The first one I watched was Return of the Jedi and as with Multiverse of Madness I didn't feel like I was missing anything.

I have a better example of what I mean with Black Panther. I took a break from Marvel movies for a good bit and when I came back I happened to see Black Panther before Age of Ultron, Winter Soldier and Civil War, so right from the start I had no clue who arms dealer guy and CIA guy were, when the CIA became relevant, or what the deal was with this whole royal succession thing. And the thing is, Black Panther doesn't really go back to explain any of that, so I had a pretty bad first impression of the movie because story and character introductions and development had happened in other movies and this one built on it without looking back. Without catching up on a number of previous movies, the necessary context wasn't there.

For Multiverse of Madness I'd say the same is true for Strange and Wong. Maybe Mordo, but since he's the alternate reality version of the character it's less relevant if you know him from Doctor Strange, I reckon. You should at least watch that movie for proper context first. You can probably catch on to the stuff from Infinity War, End Game and the explanation in No Way Home why Wong is sorcerer supreme. I'm not really getting the impression that this is a concern with Wanda. But like I said, I haven't watched WandaVision, so I wouldn't even know if I'm missing relevant information.

The point is that with Black Panther my experience was that I was definitely missing something, and the same didn't happen upon watching Multiverse of Madness.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 10:57:12


Post by: Blackie


I think WandaVision is quite crucial for MoM, but also Infinity War/Endgame are. But mostly if you belong to the crowd that can't accept a major character, from an universe in which the protagonists are portrayed as heroes, turning villain, especially without detailed explanation. I mean like real villain, with people dying for her actions, not just a useless clash in an empty area where only things are destroyed and everyone ends up without a scratch.

That was one of the reasons why I liked MoM much more than something like Civil War.

Mordo I had completely removed him from my memory instead, still don't remember anything about him from the original Dr. Strange except he was the villain, but had no problem watching the movie.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 11:23:25


Post by: AduroT


Mordo wasn’t the villain in the first Doctor Strange. Rather he was Strange’s mentor and friend. It wasn’t until the very end when he sees the Sorcerer Supreme isn’t a pure white paragon that he leaves in a huff, and a post credit where he decides there’s too many sorcerers and declares his heel turn. Then in MoM we find out they’ve since had multiple off screen fights with Mordo trying to kill Strange.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 12:25:07


Post by: Lance845


 AduroT wrote:
Mordo wasn’t the villain in the first Doctor Strange. Rather he was Strange’s mentor and friend. It wasn’t until the very end when he sees the Sorcerer Supreme isn’t a pure white paragon that he leaves in a huff, and a post credit where he decides there’s too many sorcerers and declares his heel turn. Then in MoM we find out they’ve since had multiple off screen fights with Mordo trying to kill Strange.


There is a confirmed deleted scene/alternate opening to the movie where Mordo is hunting Wanda at her orchard/cabin and apparently Wanda decapitates Mordo. So I think that line is a hold over from the supposed end to Mordo's characters.

It was changed because apparently it gives away that Wanda is the villain too early? Which.... they do basically immediately anyway. So i dunno man.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 12:31:12


Post by: AduroT


I’m not sure if that’s less or more of a waste of the character. Also makes me wonder on the nature of Sorcerers vs Witches, since his heel turn he declared anti-sorcerer, and she isn’t one, and Wong and Strange imply witchcraft is distinctly different from sorcery.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 12:55:22


Post by: Geifer


As I understand it that may be a meaningless distinction to Mordo. His trigger for going off the deep end is the Ancient One's violation of what he sees as the natural order, or something to that effect. It wouldn't really matter to him who breaks down reality, or for what reason.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 13:01:47


Post by: Voss


 Geifer wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Missing WandaVision is like watching a New Hope and then Return of the Jedi, skipping The Empire Strikes Back. It can be done, but the watcher is going to lose a lot of contents then.


Perhaps less so if you're not too concerned with Wanda. I didn't watch WandaVision, but I liked Multiverse of Madness just fine and never felt like I was missing anything. Of course I was going into it expecting a Dr. Strange movie, and ended up getting just that. I was only marginally aware that Wanda was in it before I saw it.

As a selfcontained movie it works just fine, going by my own experience. Wanda wants kids, Wanda reads the Necronomicon, things go sideways. I don't think you actually need further context to understand and enjoy the movie.


Watching WandaVision first should confuse people more. You'll be wondering why she suddenly doesn't give two dead rats about her lover and does care about kids she barely knows (and involved a fair amount of body horror and questions about their unnatural growth rate and abilities).

If she were an alternate universe Wanda whose kids were killed by Sinister Strange, the movie would've made a lot more sense. It would still fall a little flat because alternate realities and infinity, but you could spin a story about two high-powered people, not coping with loss and inflicting loss over and over again in a cycle of abuse.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 13:56:13


Post by: Lance845


Voss wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Missing WandaVision is like watching a New Hope and then Return of the Jedi, skipping The Empire Strikes Back. It can be done, but the watcher is going to lose a lot of contents then.


Perhaps less so if you're not too concerned with Wanda. I didn't watch WandaVision, but I liked Multiverse of Madness just fine and never felt like I was missing anything. Of course I was going into it expecting a Dr. Strange movie, and ended up getting just that. I was only marginally aware that Wanda was in it before I saw it.

As a selfcontained movie it works just fine, going by my own experience. Wanda wants kids, Wanda reads the Necronomicon, things go sideways. I don't think you actually need further context to understand and enjoy the movie.


Watching WandaVision first should confuse people more. You'll be wondering why she suddenly doesn't give two dead rats about her lover and does care about kids she barely knows (and involved a fair amount of body horror and questions about their unnatural growth rate and abilities).

If she were an alternate universe Wanda whose kids were killed by Sinister Strange, the movie would've made a lot more sense. It would still fall a little flat because alternate realities and infinity, but you could spin a story about two high-powered people, not coping with loss and inflicting loss over and over again in a cycle of abuse.


This again ignores all the dialog throughout the entire movie that explicitly states that it's not her it's the book.

It's like thinking Ash's girl is going out of character when she becomes a deadite in Army of Darkness.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 14:15:51


Post by: Voss


 Lance845 wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Geifer wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Missing WandaVision is like watching a New Hope and then Return of the Jedi, skipping The Empire Strikes Back. It can be done, but the watcher is going to lose a lot of contents then.


Perhaps less so if you're not too concerned with Wanda. I didn't watch WandaVision, but I liked Multiverse of Madness just fine and never felt like I was missing anything. Of course I was going into it expecting a Dr. Strange movie, and ended up getting just that. I was only marginally aware that Wanda was in it before I saw it.

As a selfcontained movie it works just fine, going by my own experience. Wanda wants kids, Wanda reads the Necronomicon, things go sideways. I don't think you actually need further context to understand and enjoy the movie.


Watching WandaVision first should confuse people more. You'll be wondering why she suddenly doesn't give two dead rats about her lover and does care about kids she barely knows (and involved a fair amount of body horror and questions about their unnatural growth rate and abilities).

If she were an alternate universe Wanda whose kids were killed by Sinister Strange, the movie would've made a lot more sense. It would still fall a little flat because alternate realities and infinity, but you could spin a story about two high-powered people, not coping with loss and inflicting loss over and over again in a cycle of abuse.


This again ignores all the dialog throughout the entire movie that explicitly states that it's not her it's the book.

It's like thinking Ash's girl is going out of character when she becomes a deadite in Army of Darkness.

No, its not. Army of Darkness doesn't spend time (let alone an hour plus) trying to justify that 'Ash's girl' has rational reasons for doing what she's doing, let alone that she might have a point.

You can yadda yadda about the stupid book of cliche plot convenience as much as you like, but the actual issue is the film burns a lot of time trying to make Wanda seem reasonable and rational, and then tries to pretend that the fact that she's just a monster is a surprise to her at the end.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 14:43:00


Post by: LunarSol


It's definitely the big weakness of the film, but I don't need to excuse every weakness to revel in the fun of its strengths.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 15:36:23


Post by: Voss


 LunarSol wrote:
It's definitely the big weakness of the film, but I don't need to excuse every weakness to revel in the fun of its strengths.

/shrug

There's enough cute scenes for a 10 minute highlight video, but character-wise, America is luggage, Wanda is abomination (and probably the worst bad motivation MCU villain, which says a LOT), Wong is interesting but underused, and Strange is apparently incapable of dealing with relationships like an adult. Pacing eventually settles down for the last 20 minutes of the film, but spends too much time skipping over everything that matters, even the scenery.

Strengths are pretty much missing from this film (not unlike the first one). Dr. Strange seems better as a concept than a realized vision.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 15:54:12


Post by: Lance845


Voss wrote:

You can yadda yadda about the stupid book of cliche plot convenience as much as you like, but the actual issue is the film burns a lot of time trying to make Wanda seem reasonable and rational, and then tries to pretend that the fact that she's just a monster is a surprise to her at the end.


I don't think the movie spends even a single second trying to make Wanda look reasonable. I think it spends time trying to show how Wanda, in her corruption, justifies her monstorus behavior to herself. None of that dialog is meant to convince you of anything except her insanity.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 16:09:31


Post by: Voss


Which walks us back around to 'worst bad motivation MCU villain' and leaves me at a loss for what the first half of the film is even for.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/29 16:22:43


Post by: Lance845


Well the things that happen in the first half of the film are...

-Defender strange and america running from bandage monster. Introduce book of vishanti. Intoduce America and her powers. Get to 616.

-The Wedding. Introduce Strange and how some people view his choices post End Game. Introduce the idea he is unhappy.

-Gigantos fight. Show America is being pursued by what appears to be an endless string of demons.

-Pizza Place. Catch Wong and Strange up to the current situation. Try to establish a small measure of trust with America.

-Strange goes to Wanda to get some extra help from the only Avenger with any abilities involved with this. Find out Wandas the villain, run back to Karamtaj.

-Karmar Taj fight to establish how powerful wanda has become and how unprepared everyone is for her.

-Multiverse montage ending in Illuminati world. Brief memory booth (I think this is a cheap way to do this but it keeps things moving) to establish Americas backstory and Stranges regrets and unhappiness to resurface.

So on and so forth.

I don't see where the issues with the first half of the film are. And just to reiterate. This is one of my least favorite MCU films. But this isn't one of the problems with it imo.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/30 01:36:31


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Didn't come across as flawed to me at all. It worked perfectly well as a follow-up to Wandavision (which did have a really gakky final episode, but still...).

Wanda got deeper into the Darkhold, learnt more of what it could do, and was seduced by its power. Then she learnt she could have what she wanted for real - not created by her own powers - and sought out a way to get that (ie. America).

As for the Illuminati, they were a key piece of Strange's journey, as his arc was learning that there isn't always one way to do everything and he doesn't have to be the one to do everything himself. The Illuminati fell into the trap of assuming that there was only ever one way to deal with Strange, ironically doing the very thing their Strange was guilty of.

This is also why Strange doesn't defeat Wanda, because America does, because Strange has to let someone else take control of the situation.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/30 01:42:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


We also see echoes of End Game, with The Item Of Inadvisable Potency being (seemingly, at least) entirely removed from the board, thus putting it well beyond the reach of temptation of everyone.

I still don’t think she’s dead though.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/30 03:54:15


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I still don’t think she’s dead though.
I hope she is so that in Phase 5 we can get Vision: The Wrath of Theseus!



Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/30 04:49:06


Post by: LordofHats


Caught this on D+.

It's okay. Kind of feel like the multiverse angle was tragically underutilized though. This movie suffers from the common problem of too many plot threads. I feel like it would have had more room to really shine if it had cut Wanda out of the plot, or the multiverse. Both makes the movie too busy and strangles the potential. America's whole deal honestly is probably the most half-baked part of the plot and I found the ending to be a big heaping case of 'because the plot.'

Or maybe I'm just disappointed that the thing I'd really liked to have seen the movie focus on feels poorly done. Dr. Strange has been a bit of an A-hole in his other MCU appearances. A huge A-hole actually. The idea of a movie being about Strange learning not to be an a-hole and kind of check himself feels like it could have carried this entire movie on its own and been better for it but in that case Mardo or Evil Strange would have been a better villain than Wanda. And Wanda having her own movie as a villain antagonist could have even followed and built on that movie.

In a way, I felt a bit cheated out of two better movies by the okay one.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/30 06:49:44


Post by: AduroT


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I still don’t think she’s dead though.
I hope she is so that in Phase 5 we can get Vision: The Wrath of Theseus!



Hm. If she Is dead, or believed to be enough, maybe we get New Vision doing his version of VisionWanda and making the robot family from his comic. That would give us Viv for the Champions lineup.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/30 07:24:46


Post by: Blackie


Voss wrote:
Which walks us back around to 'worst bad motivation MCU villain' and leaves me at a loss for what the first half of the film is even for.


I liked her motivations instead. At least it's not the same old crazy dude that wants to dominate the world, destroy everything or seek revenge. Is there even a MCU installment in which the villain has different goals? All motivations that were already old in the 80s, and they're still the motivations we get in 99% of the fantasy/sci fi movies.

Thanos' motivations were a bit more interesting probably, to the point that I might even understand those who say he was actually right, but even him just wanted to dominate the world with his idea of order.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/30 14:20:30


Post by: LunarSol


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I still don’t think she’s dead though.


My guess? Assuming we're heading to Secret Wars, I'm betting hoping she ends up filling in the role of Molecule Man, which is basically also her role in House of M. She'll be convinced her to save fragments of the multiverse and hold it together as Battleworld, but ultimately she'll make the choice to undo everything, fulfilling her destiny to destroy the world to save it from Doom.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/30 16:05:41


Post by: Voss


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We also see echoes of End Game, with The Item Of Inadvisable Potency being (seemingly, at least) entirely removed from the board, thus putting it well beyond the reach of temptation of everyone.

I still don’t think she’s dead though.


It kind of doesn't matter, because there are two blink-and-you'll-miss-it moments where it turns out she accidentally empowered her alternate reality possession victim (you can see her pull the scarlet witch power with her hands or it flash in her eyes, and NOT when evil Wanda is possessing her). So if/when the actress comes back to the MCU, I'll put odds on that one being the new 'real' Wanda. Makes it easier on the old heroic morality purity test.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/30 16:14:38


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 Lance845 wrote:
It's like thinking Ash's girl is going out of character when she becomes a deadite in Army of Darkness.


Does Wanda get real ugly?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LunarSol wrote:
My guess? Assuming we're heading to Secret Wars, I'm betting hoping she ends up filling in the role of Molecule Man, which is basically also her role in House of M. She'll be convinced her to save fragments of the multiverse and hold it together as Battleworld, but ultimately she'll make the choice to undo everything, fulfilling her destiny to destroy the world to save it from Doom.


Will she also get MM's gal?

Will Hasslehoff be able to play Beyonder still?


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/30 18:11:23


Post by: Lance845




Thats 616 hers "soul" inside the possessed wanda mind when she kills xavier.

Plus the whole fingers turning black from the corrupt magic of the darkhold all movie.


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/30 18:17:36


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Voss wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We also see echoes of End Game, with The Item Of Inadvisable Potency being (seemingly, at least) entirely removed from the board, thus putting it well beyond the reach of temptation of everyone.

I still don’t think she’s dead though.


It kind of doesn't matter, because there are two blink-and-you'll-miss-it moments where it turns out she accidentally empowered her alternate reality possession victim (you can see her pull the scarlet witch power with her hands or it flash in her eyes, and NOT when evil Wanda is possessing her). So if/when the actress comes back to the MCU, I'll put odds on that one being the new 'real' Wanda. Makes it easier on the old heroic morality purity test.


Apologies if this seems nitpicky, but I just sort of assumed Alternate Wanda had the powers anyway? As ever I may have missed something!


Multiverse of Madness Discussion (spoilers!) @ 2022/06/30 19:31:19


Post by: Voss


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Voss wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
We also see echoes of End Game, with The Item Of Inadvisable Potency being (seemingly, at least) entirely removed from the board, thus putting it well beyond the reach of temptation of everyone.

I still don’t think she’s dead though.


It kind of doesn't matter, because there are two blink-and-you'll-miss-it moments where it turns out she accidentally empowered her alternate reality possession victim (you can see her pull the scarlet witch power with her hands or it flash in her eyes, and NOT when evil Wanda is possessing her). So if/when the actress comes back to the MCU, I'll put odds on that one being the new 'real' Wanda. Makes it easier on the old heroic morality purity test.


Apologies if this seems nitpicky, but I just sort of assumed Alternate Wanda had the powers anyway? As ever I may have missed something!


She may have, admittedly. But initially (especially with the first broken possession) she reacts like a mom, not a super. Its only after Wanda has been in her a while that she reacts with powers (to get out of the Vishanti pocket dimension and reacts to Wanda coming through America's portal).

Thinking about it, its one of those situations that can only be resolved through Word of God, and the answer would probably be more disappointing than the speculation.