Hello, fellow fans of giant stompy chivalrous robots! A new Codex is upon us, therefore it is time for a new thread! Here we can discuss Imperial Knights tactics with all of our fellow High Monarchs (or Princeps, if you prefer gears to eagles!) in order to get as much mileage out of the new book as possible. I thought I'd start us off with a discussion of our units and Households.
Note: these are very much "hot takes" and should be taken with a large grain of salt; the intent is to stimulate some discussion. I would absolutely love to hear from some more experienced Knight players on how and why my takes are way off! And predictably as anyone who has seen me around these forums would know, I'm doing this in the form of a tier list.
UNITS Armiger Helverin: B tier: These guys are probably the lesser of our baby robots; that said they are still decently good. Great for camping a backfield objective and providing fire support with its long range autocannons.
Armiger Warglaive: S tier: Every Knights army should have a few of these kicking around; they are great for going out and grabbing objectives, as having ObSec, counting as five models, and actually possessing decent melee capability make them well-suited for this.
Knight Errant: S tier: Probably the best of the Questoris type, its main gun is powerful for anti-big stuff duty, and its melee is pretty fearsome as well with the new-and-improved Reaper Chainsword or Thunderstrike Gauntlet. It also gives out one of the best Armiger buffs, enabling one of those to absolutely jump across the table and smash something.
Knight Warden: D tier: It's not awful, per se, but its main gun is somewhat meh in the current meta (doubly so thanks to Armor of Contempt on a lot of popular armies), and its Armiger buff is situational at best.
Knight Crusader: C tier: If you want an all-shooty Knight, this is the robot for you. Its Armiger buff is decent but somewhat bland, and it needs to stay out of combat if possible now that the stompy feet aren't as good anymore.
Knight Gallant: B tier: Sort of the opposite of the Crusader, this Knight wants to break stuff up close and personal. Its Armiger buff continues that theme, so it's good for it to be accompanied by at least one of those when it gets ready to get stuck in.
Knight Paladin: A tier: Its main gun isn't quite as good as that of the Errant, but it's not bad at all. Its Armiger buff is quite spicy indeed.
Knight Preceptor: A tier: You don't bring this one for its weapons, per se, although they are certainly decent. Its ability to use Knightly Teachings is the main draw, as those aren't as restricted as the other Questoris Knights' buffs (they are mostly auras that affect all Armigers in range). Plus, they stack with the other buffs for some very potent combos.
Knight Castellan: C tier: Really expensive, but it has immensely scary firepower. Detachment restrictions mean you need to think very hard about whether it's worth bringing one of these to the party.
Knight Valiant: C tier: Honestly I think people are sleeping on this model. It doesn't look as scary as a Castellan on paper, especially given that its guns are short ranged, but once it gets in range it should be able to do some work. Plus, if it gets tied up in melee it can still use its guns against whatever ties it up, which the Castellan cannon due to its weapons being Blast. Still, given the detachment restrictions it's probably not the right choice unless you really have a plan for it.
Canis Rex: B tier: A named Preceptor Freeblade; has a cute gimmick where the pilot jumps out if his machine dies but doesn't explode. Probably not worth taking over a standard Preceptor except in a Freeblade Lance.
HOUSEHOLDS House Terryn: A tier: The Questor Imperialis allegiance tends to point towards melee-focused lists, and Terryn's abilities definitely lean into that. The Tradition, unique Stratagem, and Warlord Trait are all melee buffs, but the relic is a very nice upgrade to a Rapid-fire Battle Cannon. So be sure to pack a Paladin if you pick this Household.
House Griffith: S tier: The Tradition is basically borrowing a trick from Space Marines and Bloody Rose Sisters, and it is hilarious on a Knight with its crazy melee weapons. The strat is a bit expensive, but easily worth having if you are facing a lot of vehicles and monsters. The Trait is a must on a Gallant (and okay on others), and the Relic is decent but not a must-take. This is definitely one of the stronger Household picks.
House Cadmus: C tier: Cadmus' Tradition is only really good against hordes, but it is really good against them. The Warlord Trait is great, the Relic is meh, and the strat is situational (but great when it matters). Not terrible, but there are better choices.
House Hawkshroud: B tier: Having your Knights not degrade until they are almost dead is very nice, and being able to Heroically Intervene up to 12" with a Knight via the Strat is enough to give any opponent pause. The Warlord trait and relic are okay, but nothing to write home about.
House Mortan: D tier: One of the weaker Households for sure; the tradition and stratagem are pretty meh. The Warlord trait is decent but not amazing, and the relic is quite spicy (but not enough to make you pick this Household over one of the better ones IMO).
House Raven: S tier: This is the premiere shooty Household; being able to advance and still shoot as if you stood still gives you great flexibility and makes it harder for your opponents to hide from you. The reworked Order of Companions strat is much cheaper than the old one, but nowhere near as potent. Still worth it at least sometimes. The Warlord trait gives a Knight Armor of Contempt-lite, which is nice especially combined with the Mechanicus allegiance ability. The relic is certainly not bad either, especially if you like taking lots of Armigers.
House Taranis: B tier: Not terrible, but not the best either. The tradition is fine and does work well with the Mechanicus ability. The strat lets you potentially rez a Knight, but it can be pretty swingy as you have to first not explode and then it's still a 50/50 shot. Expect a salty opponent when it does go off though! The Trait is nice and works kind of like a Sisters Miracle Dice, but it's once per game unless you become Virtuous. The relic is a nice upgrade on a Melta weapon, but not a must-take by any means.
House Krast: B tier: A solid pick overall, especially if you like melee combat, as the Tradition, Stratagem, and Warlord trait all lean towards it. The Headsman's Mark relic is truly excellent and you should definitely take it if you play Krast.
House Vulker: D tier: A pretty meh Tradition and a relic that is basically trash make this a subpar Household pick. The Warlord Trait isn't that good either; Transhuman Physiology-type effects are great on smaller models but won't come into play that much on a T8 Knight except when fighting other big stuff (like other Knights mostly). The strat is honestly the only really good thing about Vulker, and it's nowhere near good enough to make you pick it.
Overall I feel like Knights are a melee army more than a shooty army with this book, although House Raven definitely gives an avenue to go nuts with shooting if that's your jam. I think the army is probably in a good place; I predict that it won't have the impact that Tyranids have over the past couple of weeks but we should see some decently good finishes in tournaments with Knights. We'll see if my predictions come to pass, eh?
Anyway, that's a good start. Let's have some Knightly discussion! List builds, strategies, anything; let's see if we can't wring this book out!
You mention the Valiant. I’ve been looking at strategies to make him work. The +6 extra range has me curious. You can take this via the master tactician exalted court buff.
Sisters repentia are the bane of my existence just now so I haven’t given up on old flamey
I think the valiant is pretty pointless when the castellan is only 10 pts more is has alot better firepower.
The better range is needed on a slow knight and even when it gets up close the valiant still doesn't put out as good quality of shots - the harpoon is just poor.
The overwatch from the flamer is its best selling point up is very easy to avoid with modern terrain and other special rules.
I think Canis Rex is a big improvement over a standard perceptor if he fits in with the rest of the army you are using, alot of baked in bonuses for only a few points more.
If I were running Raven, I'd lean into the advance and do things mechanic with 2x Errants and a Preceptor supported with 4x Warglaives. The Warglaives go first keeping the melee threats off of your big knights while everything shoots and picks out a unit or two to soften up for the turn two charge. I haven't tested this yet, but it feels better to keep shooting with Raven than getting an extra attack with Griffith.
Ideasweasel wrote: What’s the consensus on the raven supplement being legal still? I know engine war is dead but didn’t see anything on the raven supplement
On their Book legality list its noted as legal "unless superseded by a codex".
Unfortunately its not super clear but I would say that the codex does superseded the supplement as it replaces various rules.
That is a shame as there was a couple of Raven tricks that would be helpful.
How long till we get our 10th ed book?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone think taking 3 errants and 5 warglaives = 2k on the nose and taking the 5th warglaive is worth the trade of not taking any exalted court upgrades
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also
I see a lot of people online talking about the Taranis mortal wound wombo combo, giving a crusader or castellan all the tricks and modifying 6's also the warlord trait mortal wounds on 6's as well. Some people have the expensive idea of taking a bondman paladin to buff a crusader with the paladins RR1's but that seems expensive and subject to LOS issues
what if a freeblade taking on the taranis details and unlocking access to the Taranis keyword does it better on a budget
The freeblade lance allows the strength from exile stragam to give RR1's to hit and wound as long as he is 12" away from other knights. So saving you 425 points and also since you are taking a freeblade lance you could tax canis rex instead of a preceptor if you were planning on doing so.
You could even take a errant with double relics and give him the mortal wound on 6's to wound relic and sanctuary. that way you have a mortal wound machine in combat and one with guns.
Am I onto something here, do these interactions work?
Taranis is being thrown around as the best for that combo because their warlord trait gives them access to another automatic 6 to wound. Freeblade Lance could make a knight with the Taranis house trait (6+++) but could not take the Taranis-specific warlord trait. You would be left with the auto 6 from being Virtuous in Lay Low.
That said, a Crusader with battlecannon, endless fury, and the freeblade trait Blessed Arms could use the Blessed by the Sacriscans WLT to throw out reliable mortals even without the strat.
I do like an Imperialis knight in Freeblade with the Helm and Noble Combatants to threaten more mortals in combat. That feels like our best answer to things like Terminators in cover.
My current thinking is for my shooting-heavy Knights army to do something like that- a backfield Crusader set up to produce as many Mortals as possible via massed firepower from within the home deployment zone.
Crusader w/Battlecannon, two Heavy Stubbers, Icarus Autocannon, Endless Fury, Blessed by the Sacristans, ready to roll out with Calculated Targeting to (attempt to) delete something important in the first couple of turns while sitting back on or near the home objective. Slap Forgemaster on it to keep it alive (or at least punish the enemy for trying to kill it) and have it buff a couple of Helverin's BS as they similarly shoot up the table.
Anything that the enemy sends poking around back there gets a lot of highly-buffed firepower thrown against it, and worse comes to worst the Helverins are ready to take over as home objective holders.
Stupidly points-expensive and it detracts from whatever's charging forward to take the midfield, of course.
I was going to get my first outing with the new book tonight, but it didn't work out. I was going to run the following:
Spoiler:
Super-Heavy Detachment: House Raven
Knight Crusader: RFBC, Exalted Court: Princeps, Warlord (Ion Bulwark), Relic: Endless Fury
Knight Errant: Exalted Court: Master of Vox, Knight Baron (Knight Seneschal), Order of Companions (for the damage rerolls)
Knight Preceptor: Meltagun, Relic: Mentor's Seal
2x Armiger Warglaives: 2x Meltagun
2x Armiger Helverin: 2x Cognis Heavy Stubber
Not sure how well this would have done; my friend was going to be running Salamanders Space Marines with a lot of meltas (which is kind of a hard counter to Knights). Having read through the codex a couple of times now, there are a LOT of moving parts in a Knights army. And people thought the Custodes' karate made them complicated! Anyways, my plan was to let the Crusader, as a Princeps, give his Bondsman buff to the Errant (or the Preceptor in a pinch) to increase the accuracy of its gun. The Errant could then give his buff to any Armiger Warglaive on the board thanks to being a Master of Vox, and since the list is House Raven that Warglaive could advance up the board, blast something, and then charge it (or something else if its shooting killed the target).
Not sure how well this would work in practice; as I said it would be my first game with the new book and there is a lot to wrap my mind around. My relic choices in particular are something I'm unsure about; there are so many good ones!
How are we feeling about custom household trait Strike and Shield? Army wide Trans-hit + a couple of armigers buffed to a 4++ with Herald sounds pretty tanky to me.
I think its good. One of the balancing factors for Imperialis over Mechanicum is the quality of their custom households. In my freeblade lance my Warglaives get Strike and Shield. You can also make one Transhuman to wound as well as hit, with the 4++ and -1 damage. Give it advance and charge, Full Tilt it 21 inches before the charge, and make the enemy deal with it instead of your squishier big knights in the midfield.
Terryn
Gallant +Herald w/sanctuary and ion bulwark for tanking
Warglaive x 4
this was against leviathan tyranids which definitely dulled my Strength advantage in close combat and shooting. I ended up actually tabling my opponent with no losses with a little luck and a lot of tanking from the -1D and 4++ armigers. I didn't realize just how quick these little guys were and with Terryn I was able to charge first turn and hem his entire army in to the corner and claim all the objectives. Mortals were a challenge but I managed to survive for the most part intact once I started charging the psykers.
Could somebody do a very easy and basic breakdown of the different knights? Is it like giants in AoS who play objectives good by standing on them and beeing thick? And how would one of them function of you where to ally them into space wolves?
Niiai wrote: Could somebody do a very easy and basic breakdown of the different knights? Is it like giants in AoS who play objectives good by standing on them and beeing thick? And how would one of them function of you where to ally them into space wolves?
Sure!
Little Knights: Armigers. Come in Shooty (Helverin) and Stabby (Warglaive) variants. They're basically just vehicles- degrading profile, standard rules, etc. They've received the most attention in the new codex, getting ways to layer all sorts of buffs and damage reduction on them, but a lot of that comes from effects produced by the Big Knights, so their allying potential is middling to low. Some factions might make good use of the Warglaives' melee power, but Space Wolves don't have that problem, really. Just take another Dreadnought or two- they do basically the same thing, and get damage reduction automatically. (Though they're notably slower in movement- Armiger long chicken-legs vs. dreadnought stumpy legs do count for something...)
Big Knights: The "Questoris" class. These have the juicy rules that you come to Knights to get: Titanic (so fall back and shoot), Super-Heavy Walker (so move over other models and fall back and charge), 24+ wounds at T8, and Really Big Weapons. There are five varieties, but they boil down to three types: Shooty (two big guns- Crusader), Partly Stabby (one big gun, one big melee weapon- Paladin, Warden, and Errant), and Extra-Double-Plus-Stabby (Gallant, two melee weapons and a WS and Attacks boost). If you're souping into Marines, it's one of these you want- and you'll pay for it, as they're 400-500 points a pop.
Biggest Knights: "Dominus" class. These come in Long-Range Shooty (Castellan) and Short-Range Shooty (Valiant)- both have some absolutely tremendous firepower, both are decidedly meh in melee (they can still fall back and shoot, but have no good melee weapons as their previously effective Stompy Feet just got nerfed). This especially puts the Valiant, with 18" range on its main guns, in rather a tough spot. The Castellan at least has stupidly long range guns and makes a decent back-line firepower hub, especially against few, tough targets. Still, the cost here for either is ~600 points or so, so might not be the best add-on for another army- at that point the whole list is one-third Knight without any of the Knight Army-wide tricks or bonuses.
Anyway. mixing one of these into a Space Wolves army is CP intensive- you have to pay 3CP for the Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, and AFAIK there's no way to get a keyword on there for a shared faction +2 CP bonus- but thanks to the "Freeblade" rules it won't break your army's overarching doctrine rules (the Knight loses out on its own doctrine-equivalent, but it's not so much a loss). What is a bit of a loss is that you don't get Knight Warlord Traits or Relics, which are pretty good. Still, if you pay those 3CP and ~450pnts, you get a 24+ wound, T8, 5++ vs. Ranged, heavily-armed, Titanic guy that can't hide.
I don't play Age of Sigmar for the Giants comparison, but I don't think Knights are tough enough for their points costs to play by simply being tough. They're more relying on their skew-factor of being an army of nothing but big vehicles, the mobility granted by being Titanic Super-Heavy Walkers that can move over models and fall back and shoot and charge (plus zoomy Armigers), and their attrition factor- they're 'chunky' in that you don't see real gains in stopping their damage output until you completely knock out a knight (24+ wounds), and meanwhile they're all smacking you around. They can kinda-sorta play the objective game with Armigers, but in my opinion it remains a 'table opponent or be tabled' sort of an army, albeit one that plays out over all five turns rather than over the first two.
So, for a Space Wolves soup, the big question is: what would you be adding with getting one? A Knight is the ultimate (and ultimately expensive!) Distraction Carnifex type unit- your enemy is likely to take one look and dedicate all their attention to taking it down, and will be steadily punished if they do not. If that means your Wolfy Dudes get some time to grab key objectives and get into position for a good charge or three, great! If instead you're looking for something with good firepower per point to delete enemy units, or absolute durability per point to make it unworthwhile to remove and hold an objective till the cows come home, I think Space Marines- especially post-Armor of Contempt Space Marines- have better tools for the job.
I am getting a dominus type heading my way. I do not know what to do with it. But I do own SW. So I thought I could ally one in.
The usual space wolves list I run is quite heavy on the dreadnoughts. I have 3 remdeptors and 3 wolfen dreadnoughts (who are really good) who has some good synergi with psyker. But they need long range support, or more dreads. But a big knight could work. Mostly for fun, even if it is jot optimal.
But I do not know if knights are fun to play against? Big units tend to turn the game around beeing all about them. Kill it or loose type games.
As for AoS the giants have so much health they can just stand with their toe on the objectives and they grab all the points. They are not that fighty.
In that case, a Castellan would fit right in. It'd not be the fastest-moving army, but that many Dreads stomping forward plus the Castellan shooting from behind would be neat to see. Though, if you want maximum 'wall of steel', get a Valiant and just toss it into the mix. (Perhaps source a set of just the arms? Knights love magnets, it is known.)
For fun to play against, I dunno, never been on the other side of the equation. It's certainly a challenge, and at least the destruction- one way or the other- plays out over several turns; despite their impressive stats, Knights just don't have the sheer firepower-per-point other Shooting armies can put out, so there's none of the Tau or Mechanicus 'vaporized turn two' issues.
Knights are definitely fighty, but not nearly tough enough for their points to just hang out on objectives daring the enemy to bring it. *(That's currently more the domain of super-heavy infantry like Terminators.) Heck, they don't even have ObSec base- only the Armigers do, and they're more 'fast dreadnoughts' than true Knights.
Yes Terminators are definetivt quite good now. I used to take mine with combat shields (space wolves flex abilaty) but they are even better now. My ork opponent had a hard time against it so I dropped it. That beeing said the dreadnoughts - 1 damage is also very rough.
But I like the knights idea. Thank you for the breakdown. It is really hard to read them on a surface level.
I recently watched The Art of War review of the new 'dex, and they seemed to think the book was strong but nowhere near as busted as Tyranids or pre-nerf Harlequins. A lot of the power seems to come from stacking abilities on Armigers, via the Knightly Teachings from a Preceptor, as well as the Bondsman abilities. The hard part of the whole thing, according to them, is going to be keeping the big guys alive long enough to get work done.
Hrm. This suggests that- despite the melee power of the Imperialis Houses- the extra Mechanicus wounds, and especially the Taranis FNP, would be the way to go. A Questoris at one last wound that it only got because of Mechanicus and only kept because it made that 6+++... is still a Questoris providing Armiger buffs and synergies.
I tend to agree. Mechanicus has generally better stratagem support too. Personally I like Raven better than Taranis, but both are solid. That being said, Imperialis do have some nice tricks and I generally prefer their Exalted Court upgrades over the Mechanicus ones. Maybe in some cases a good offense is the best defense, in which case pick House Griffith and go wreck stuff!
The Battlescribe update for Knights makes you pick Imperialis or Mechanicus for the Freeblade Lance and limits you to one half of that set. That doesn't seem right to me. I've checked the Questor Allegiance rules and they only say that you pick one or the other for each Freeblade unit in your army. The Freeblade Lance Army of Renown doesn't require you to choose an allegiance either.
Sometimes I miss stuff though. Am I missing something, or is that an oversight on their part?
I played my first games with the new Codex this weekend. I played against a tooled-up Grey Knights list with a Paladin bomb, MW Librarian, Draigo and Dreadknights, plus Strikes and a few Interceptors. Imperial Knights won both games, while before the Codex Grey Knights tended to win. We played Tempest of War missions. The list:
++ Super-Heavy Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [106 PL, 9CP, 1,995pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Chivalric Oath: Oath: Defend the Realm, Oath: Lay Low The Tyrants
Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus
House Raven
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [16 PL, -1CP, 310pts]
Armiger Helverin: Heirloom: The Bastard's Helm, Heirlooms of the Household, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Helverin: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaives [24 PL, 435pts]
Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaives [16 PL, 290pts]
Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Knight Errant [25 PL, 480pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Exalted Court: Princeps, Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Revered Knight
Knight Errant [25 PL, -2CP, 480pts]: Exalted Court: Master of Lore, Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Sanctuary, Heirlooms of the Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Knight Baron, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
Lessons learned:
- Do not trust Battlescribe blindly, there are still errors in the Weapon Profiles
- House Raven and Knights Errant work very nicely together. The list combines mobility and lethality. I was able to dictate where battles took place, avoiding the scary but slow Paladin bomb, Librarian and Draigo, which did take the central objective, but achieved little else.
- The big knights can and will be focused upon. In the first game the opponent was just able to bring one Errant down on turn 1, but he had to devote all his resources to it and was badly positioned for the counter attack. In the second game, the Errant lived on two wounds. The big knights need defensive relics and stratagems.
- We are a CP hungry army. Stratagems like Martial Power and Machine Spirit Resurgent eat through the CP quickly.
- Armigers with the -1 to damage are a huge nuisance for Grey Knights. The opponent (I think correctly) tried to ignore them and go for the Errants, but never came close to bringing both of them down.
- It was easy to stay Honoured, and getting to Virtuous is not that hard either.
- It is hard to remember which of the Armigers are affected by the Bondsman abilities and which ones are not (I also frequently forgot the +1 to Wound from the Bastard’s Helm). Bring suitable counters.
- When doing charges, pile-ins, consolidations etc you need to remember to keep Errants and Armigers within 12” of each other so that you can use the Bondsman abilities again in your next Command Phase. This is easy to mess up.
- The list worked well. I am not sure the Exalted Court picks are optimal, but otherwise I would not change things based on these practice games.
- Next I will face some Tau. Time to die, methinks.
Let us know how you get on. Short of getting the tau players drunk (that's my plan) I just think we lose. If you get paired vs one at GT maybe you just concede and insist they buy you a beer at the bar.
My loathing for tau is unending. We cant even tailor for them to give us a sporting chance.
I'm curious as to how the combination of House Raven's Warlord Trait (AP -1 and -2 are reduced by 1 against the Knight) and the Armor of Sainted Ion would work. I'm hesitant because the Armor of Contempt changes will encourage people to bring as high AP weapons as they can.
The House Raven Warlord Trait might well be worth it. Any and all survivability buffs for the big knights will help, and are a good way to spend CP. Also, Revered Knight that I used might not be necessary. I wanted to have a bit of a buffer to avoid getting dishonoured, but it was not necessary in these games. More testing needed, though.
Anyway, this list went 4-1 in a 54 player tournament this weekend:
+++ Imperial Knights / Dan Cooke / Warhammer World / May 2022 (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) +++
Interesting that he chose Protect Those In Need as one of his Oaths. I personally thought that one to be the weakest of them, mainly because it could put you in a spot of having to charge or heroically intervene in a situation where you don't really want to (meaning you have to choose between a bad charge/HI or incurring your Troth). Defend the Realm is probably the strongest, and he did take it as well. Master of the Joust is kind of an auto-take on a House Griffith Gallant of course. Overall I definitely like the list comp; 3 big and 4 small is probably going to be a very common sight in Knights lists.
ZergSmasher wrote: Interesting that he chose Protect Those In Need as one of his Oaths. I personally thought that one to be the weakest of them, mainly because it could put you in a spot of having to charge or heroically intervene in a situation where you don't really want to (meaning you have to choose between a bad charge/HI or incurring your Troth).
I think the problem is that, while Protect Those In Need is annoying and forces you to possibly charge where you don't want, the two alternatives are even easier to Troth- and with less choice or more pain on your part. With Lay Low The Tyrants, especially if you go first and have a lot of enemy out of sight or in deep strike in good cover or they're just an elite army, you might just not kill two enemy units outright the first round or two- which either Dishonors you (ouchies), or at least forces you to take a few "plus first turn honor" buffs to ameliorate. Refuse No Challenge's Troth is easy to avoid, on the other hand- by basically giving up your Fall Back and Shoot and Charge bonus for being a Titanic Super-Heavy Walker, which is presumably one of the reasons you're playing knights in the first place.
So basically, if you're just trying to tread water on oaths and not shooting for some Virtuous Combo Move... being forced to get stuck in when your Knights are already stuck in is easier not to fail than failing to kill two units every single round, or being forced never to pull out give up one of the army's key mobility advantages.
Personally, I'm going for a Shooty Knights Army, and I really, really wish I could just take Defend the Realm- especially in smaller games where I'm not sure I'll have the firepower to keep Lay Low happy.
Ah well. Hope for a Chapter Approved for a couple more low-key Chivalric options. There really isn't much in the way of options at the moment, it's mostly just 'take objectives' and three flavors of choppy melee.
Lay Low is probably going to cost you an honor on the first turn, but you also should be gaining an honor from Defend the Realm to remain at Honor 1/Honored. The rerolls you get from Lay Low are huge for the army generally, and if you can get to Virtuous its even better. Combine that with other honor-gaining possibilities like the Princeps stopping you from losing an honor or gaining an honor from the Reaffirm Oaths secondary and you should be net positive honor over time.
Feadair wrote: I played my first games with the new Codex this weekend. I played against a tooled-up Grey Knights list with a Paladin bomb, MW Librarian, Draigo and Dreadknights, plus Strikes and a few Interceptors. Imperial Knights won both games, while before the Codex Grey Knights tended to win. We played Tempest of War missions. The list:
++ Super-Heavy Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [106 PL, 9CP, 1,995pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Chivalric Oath: Oath: Defend the Realm, Oath: Lay Low The Tyrants
Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus
House Raven
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [16 PL, -1CP, 310pts]
Armiger Helverin: Heirloom: The Bastard's Helm, Heirlooms of the Household, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Helverin: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaives [24 PL, 435pts]
Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaives [16 PL, 290pts]
Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Knight Errant [25 PL, 480pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Exalted Court: Princeps, Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Revered Knight
Knight Errant [25 PL, -2CP, 480pts]: Exalted Court: Master of Lore, Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Sanctuary, Heirlooms of the Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Knight Baron, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
Lessons learned:
- Do not trust Battlescribe blindly, there are still errors in the Weapon Profiles
- House Raven and Knights Errant work very nicely together. The list combines mobility and lethality. I was able to dictate where battles took place, avoiding the scary but slow Paladin bomb, Librarian and Draigo, which did take the central objective, but achieved little else.
- The big knights can and will be focused upon. In the first game the opponent was just able to bring one Errant down on turn 1, but he had to devote all his resources to it and was badly positioned for the counter attack. In the second game, the Errant lived on two wounds. The big knights need defensive relics and stratagems.
- We are a CP hungry army. Stratagems like Martial Power and Machine Spirit Resurgent eat through the CP quickly.
- Armigers with the -1 to damage are a huge nuisance for Grey Knights. The opponent (I think correctly) tried to ignore them and go for the Errants, but never came close to bringing both of them down.
- It was easy to stay Honoured, and getting to Virtuous is not that hard either.
- It is hard to remember which of the Armigers are affected by the Bondsman abilities and which ones are not (I also frequently forgot the +1 to Wound from the Bastard’s Helm). Bring suitable counters.
- When doing charges, pile-ins, consolidations etc you need to remember to keep Errants and Armigers within 12” of each other so that you can use the Bondsman abilities again in your next Command Phase. This is easy to mess up.
- The list worked well. I am not sure the Exalted Court picks are optimal, but otherwise I would not change things based on these practice games.
- Next I will face some Tau. Time to die, methinks.
Thanks for sharing. Gives some inside. Shows that IK can be viable with a 2+7 list.
I'd take a Castellan instead of a 2nd Errant and drop one Armiger for this.
Thanks for sharing. Gives some inside. Shows that IK can be viable with a 2+7 list.
I'd take a Castellan instead of a 2nd Errant and drop one Armiger for this.
I would be wary of going down to just one Errant. If the opponent goes first, they will try to take it out and may well succeed. Two provides redundancy. The key trick of the list (advance, shoot and charge) will still work.
I think my biggest problem with the honor stuff is its really NOT that great of a benefit over all with the exception of the CP generation. You have to manage a lot of variables otherwise for a +1 to hit in melee or a heroic intervention instead of just focusing on the game.
So I’m a little confused because I can’t find a clear answer in the book.
Does the crusader pay to swap the thermal to a battlecannon? There is no points cost in the book for a battlecannon but BattleScribe shows it costing to change the crusaders thermal to a battlecannon. I want to make sure because it affects my list building
Go with the book over Battlescribe. There are more than a few errors in the first draft of their Knights update. It will get sorted out over time. The Codex is the ultimate source of authority.
No, the swap is free these days. It was 30 points in the old codex, and the Battlescribe list-translator just missed the change. Just ignore the validation error or bump yourself 30 points until they fix it.
Another thing to watch out for is that they also missed the Heavy Stubber upgrade to Cognis/Ironhail- watch the weapon profiles.
I think it depends on what kind of Tau. Battlesuits play different from Hammerhead spam play different from Stormsurges.
For me, I'm mostly worried about the Crisis Battlesuit spam. They are by far the most non-interactive version of the army. I can shoot Hammerheads and Stormsurges and be fairly comfortable with the results.
Just out of curiosity: before this codex, between Knight of the Kog and the specific Metalica + Raven + Knight of the Iron Cog thingy, there were ways for playing a big knight alongside a bunch of AdMech, and benefits (or at least, non-drawbacks) for doing so.
Has this new codex changed anything on that regard?
Hah, you're lucky that I just spent an hour writing up my ideas on that very topic. I've been running Metalica+Raven since the supplement dropped.
I'm working from the reading of Chivalric Code that you always start at 1 honour and are honoured even if your army is mixed (you just don't get Oaths). I made a post on Reddit explaining how I think this interaction works.
The trouble with mixed Imperial Knight armies is that you want some Knights and some Armigers to maximize their synergy, but the new Knight Lances rules makes that prohibitively CP expensive. Instead, we can use multiple Auxiliary detachments. You take an Auxiliary with a Questoris, choose them as the Warlord, then Knight Lances refunds the 3 CP (but they won't be a Character unless you use Knight Baron). Using the GT rules, a second Super-heavy Auxiliary detachment refunds 2 CP because it shares a specific keyword with the Warlord.
In AdMech, you'll need to use some combination of Knight of the Cog, Wandering Hero/Agent of the Imperium, or Metalica's Knight of the Iron Cog to retain your Canticles/Doctrinas.
Here's my idea in practice:
Spoiler:
1995 points, -6 CP House Raven Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment (3 CP refunded due to Knight Lances, chosen as Knight of the Cog) Knight Errant, Meltagun, Thunderstrike, Stormspear, Forgemaster, 500 [Knight Baron: Ion Bulwark -1 CP; Spirit of Kolossi; Order of Companions -1 CP]
House Raven Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment (-1 CP due to sharing a keyword with the Warlord's detachment) 3 Armiger Warglaives, Meltaguns, 450 [Knight of the Iron Cog -1CP]
I'm assuming the rumors that starting CP will be halved are true. My Armigers will get Canticles and Bondsman abilities, while my Skitarii use Doctrinas. The only awkward part is the Errant doesn't get the House Raven Tradition for advancing and shooting, like the Armigers do. I elected to take Order of Companions on my Errant instead of getting Canticles from Iron Cog, because often I'll want a different Canticle on my Warglaives than my Errant. Rather than dealing with that conflict, I took the more consistent buff from Companions.
That's all the mechanics of how it fits together, but why would you do this? It's a full-court press. The extra charge bonus from Invocation of Machine Vengeance makes it really easy to turn 1 charge with Warglaives. The Raiders and Infiltrators do a great job of movement blocking and board controlling. Like my old iteration, if I go first, I am turn 1 charging your entire army.
Traditionally, my worst match-ups have been Custodes and Harlequins. I haven't played against the most cut-throat Craftworlds or Tyranids, but they'd probably overpower this list. I feel quite comfortable against the rest of the field, however.
Quick report of a game I just played- 1000 point Incursion vs. Eternally Expansionist Necrons.
My House Taranis forces were a Blessed Wound specced Crusader (Battle Cannon, Icarus Autocannon, Endless Fury, Blessed by the Sacristans, Master Tactician into Blessed Arms), one Helverin, and two Warglaives.
He had a big squad of Warriors backed by a Command Barge, Immortals backed by a chronomancer, a good-sized scarab swarm, and a squad of Skorpek Destroyers.
We were playing Tempest of War, scoring various card-drawn secondaries while fighting over a building in the middle of the map.
He went first, and surprised me by combining Expansionists and Scarab speed to blitz my Helverin and Crusader. The Scarabs didn't do much damage, but survived Overwatch and being wailed on by both units and an Intervening Warglaive- tieing it up for a turn. He also chipped away at the other Warglaive, taking it d down with Overwatch when I tried to charge his warriors with it on my first turn.
Then I started vaporizing his units with my Crusader, and he simply didn't have an answer. First turn the Skorpeks, second the Immortals, third the Warriors, often shooting into cover and not even needing the full firepower output to wipe a unit and stop reanimation cold. The Armigers contributed Crusader-boosted supporting fire, killing the chronomancer and eventually the Barge once they left Look Out Sir. Turn three saw us about even on points (he got a lot of primary, I racked up elimination secondaries) as I cleaned up the Barge and wiped him.
My takeaways:
1) Yikes a properly kitted out Crusader can deal out damage; I didn't even have to use Calculated Targeting (not that I really could spare the CP for it).
2) Playing the objective control game is hard for Knights, despite the Armigers having ObSec; the elimination game, less so.
3) Necrons need a balance boost.
4) The 3 CP penalty Knights pay for taking a Questoris to an Incursion game is painful, but worth it.
5) Code Chivalric has been mostly a wash so far. I took Protect Those in Need and Defend the Realm; got one Honor from one Intervention then stalled. The extra CP from Defend's Honored ability was great and all I really needed; though in a larger game or against an opponent with more units, risking Lay Low The Tyrants is a definite possibility over Protect.
So yeah, getting the new Codex shaken out and seeing how my Shooty Knights handle it. Looking forward to more games soon!
DarkHound wrote: Hah, you're lucky that I just spent an hour writing up my ideas on that very topic. I've been running Metalica+Raven since the supplement dropped.
I'm working from the reading of Chivalric Code that you always start at 1 honour and are honoured even if your army is mixed (you just don't get Oaths). I made a post on Reddit explaining how I think this interaction works.
The trouble with mixed Imperial Knight armies is that you want some Knights and some Armigers to maximize their synergy, but the new Knight Lances rules makes that prohibitively CP expensive. Instead, we can use multiple Auxiliary detachments. You take an Auxiliary with a Questoris, choose them as the Warlord, then Knight Lances refunds the 3 CP (but they won't be a Character unless you use Knight Baron). Using the GT rules, a second Super-heavy Auxiliary detachment refunds 2 CP because it shares a specific keyword with the Warlord.
In AdMech, you'll need to use some combination of Knight of the Cog, Wandering Hero/Agent of the Imperium, or Metalica's Knight of the Iron Cog to retain your Canticles/Doctrinas.
Here's my idea in practice:
Spoiler:
1995 points, -6 CP House Raven Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment (3 CP refunded due to Knight Lances, chosen as Knight of the Cog)
Knight Errant, Meltagun, Thunderstrike, Stormspear, Forgemaster, 500 [Knight Baron: Ion Bulwark -1 CP; Spirit of Kolossi; Order of Companions -1 CP]
House Raven Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment (-1 CP due to sharing a keyword with the Warlord's detachment)
3 Armiger Warglaives, Meltaguns, 450 [Knight of the Iron Cog -1CP]
I'm assuming the rumors that starting CP will be halved are true. My Armigers will get Canticles and Bondsman abilities, while my Skitarii use Doctrinas. The only awkward part is the Errant doesn't get the House Raven Tradition for advancing and shooting, like the Armigers do. I elected to take Order of Companions on my Errant instead of getting Canticles from Iron Cog, because often I'll want a different Canticle on my Warglaives than my Errant. Rather than dealing with that conflict, I took the more consistent buff from Companions.
That's all the mechanics of how it fits together, but why would you do this? It's a full-court press. The extra charge bonus from Invocation of Machine Vengeance makes it really easy to turn 1 charge with Warglaives. The Raiders and Infiltrators do a great job of movement blocking and board controlling. Like my old iteration, if I go first, I am turn 1 charging your entire army.
Traditionally, my worst match-ups have been Custodes and Harlequins. I haven't played against the most cut-throat Craftworlds or Tyranids, but they'd probably overpower this list. I feel quite comfortable against the rest of the field, however.
Before I used to load up on Ironstorm missiles to snipe those annoying characters, or HWT that loved hiding behind a building but new indirect fire rules plus a 5 pts increase made them almost useless. Same with the Icarus, a niche weapon useful on a heavy Eldar meta, price went down, but the bonus against FLY units has been changed to AIRCRAFT. Quite the nerf!
It's 20 points for two autocannon. That's chump change for Knights and an easy fill for a few points to round out a list. Most of my lists end up with Carapace weapons just to make up some points. 145 is still a really big increment to overcome for adding our cheapest unit.
So I think defend the realm, Lay low the tyrants, Taranis builds are the way to go. 1 Errant, 1 other big knight and 7 armigers. I personally prefer a crusader for my second big knight because he combos well with forgemaster and blessed mortal wounds, but I can see the value in a paladin instead with his better buff and allowing more helverins into the list.
Beyond this you have some latitude when it comes to relics and WLT (although IMO bulwark and 2+ save are a must.) That said I think this framework is the best at covering our weaknesses while still giving us plenty of strength. The Imperial side allows us to hit harder and faster, but the Ad-mech side still allows us to hit hard while giving us needed durability.
Knight Crusader [28 PL, -1CP, 515pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Exalted Court: Forge Master, Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Revered Paragon, Thermal Cannon, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Taranis): Knight of Mars, Warlord Trait: Blessed by the Sacristans
Knight Errant [24 PL, -2CP, 445pts]: Exalted Court: Master of Vox, Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Heirlooms of the Household, Knight Baron, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
Feadair wrote: Well, this list just came fourth in a GT:
Hrm. I can see going 'maximum Armigers' for the boosts... but then the list can only boost four Armigers at a time, max. I suppose it's more about using the other Armiger mobility advantages, and leveraging the BS boost from the Crusader for the Helverin back-liners and the Advance & Charge from the Errant for specific situations (which I note it can deploy anywhere on the board via Vox). Does leave three Warglaives sort of hanging around being un-boosted, though- perhaps the assumption is that the enemy is going to be killing them off quickly enough for it not to matter?
The Revered Paragon getting both Knight of Mars and Blessed by the Sacristans, though... heck of a tradeoff. 1 CP for a single free 6, until you get to Virtuous? I guess if you rip enough up with those Warglaives, then Lay Low the Tyrants could push up pretty quick.
Niiai wrote: What are the big differences between. The chaos and imperial armies?
Chaos Knights in the new codex have some great individual boosts to knights- Chaos God-blessed Knights, Psychic Knights, more alternatives to armament, nasty auras of doom and despair, etc. Imperial Knight Armies instead provide ways for Knights to mega-buff each other- particularly Questoris knights buffing Armigers, but some tricks for them buffing each other, too, and some army-wide bonuses for doing Honorable things.
Feel No Pain roles, for example. Chaos Knights have a spell that grants a 5+++ to one knight that casts it; Imperial Knights have a faction that just grants 6+++ to everyone in the army.
Feadair wrote: Well, this list just came fourth in a GT:
Hrm. I can see going 'maximum Armigers' for the boosts... but then the list can only boost four Armigers at a time, max. I suppose it's more about using the other Armiger mobility advantages, and leveraging the BS boost from the Crusader for the Helverin back-liners and the Advance & Charge from the Errant for specific situations (which I note it can deploy anywhere on the board via Vox). Does leave three Warglaives sort of hanging around being un-boosted, though- perhaps the assumption is that the enemy is going to be killing them off quickly enough for it not to matter?
The Revered Paragon getting both Knight of Mars and Blessed by the Sacristans, though... heck of a tradeoff. 1 CP for a single free 6, until you get to Virtuous? I guess if you rip enough up with those Warglaives, then Lay Low the Tyrants could push up pretty quick..
The Taranis warlord trait is sneaky very good. Beyond combing well with calculating targeting, it’s actually not that hard to get virtuous with the Revered Paragon. You always pick renew the vows because it’s an easy secondary and gives you extra H point on a 4+. You usually pick stranglehold to combo with defend the realm, and grind them down to combo with avoiding Lay low the Tyrants Troth. In this way you have good secondary’s that push you towards getting virtuous. Even that happens slowly/ not at all, the fact that you are changing a die roll and not pre-setting it ahead of time is extremely powerful.
I honestly think this is basically IK’s optimized list. Not exactly exciting, but unfortunately when an army has a limited unit selection, and when GW pushes certain things over others, this is what can happen.
Guess they could just take it on the Errant, swapping out Ion Bulwark. It'd be a harder target to take down, but much more prominent and easier to connect with than the backfield Armiger.
I would probably make the Errant my Warlord and give the Revered Knight to him, while dropping Blessed by the Sacristans. Errant is pretty hard to kill and fight first is helpful for him.
Hrm. I can see going 'maximum Armigers' for the boosts... but then the list can only boost four Armigers at a time, max. I suppose it's more about using the other Armiger mobility advantages, and leveraging the BS boost from the Crusader for the Helverin back-liners and the Advance & Charge from the Errant for specific situations (which I note it can deploy anywhere on the board via Vox). Does leave three Warglaives sort of hanging around being un-boosted, though- perhaps the assumption is that the enemy is going to be killing them off quickly enough for it not to matter?
Indeed, the two Knights can boost four Warglaives. Another Warglaive could try to hold the centre and perform the action ''Renew the Oaths''. The two Armigers could benefit from ''The Bastard's Helm''.
Even without the Bondsman abilities the Armigers are still as good as they were before the codex came out. They can benefit from Obscuring, so you can use terrain to limit what can see and shoot them which is an advantage over the Titanic units. They can go into Strategic Reserves really easily and have a number of stratagems that really benefit them. I really have found them amazing, the only complaint is how much better the Chaos War Dog datasheets are. I'd really like the option for that chaincannon!
CKO wrote: Is there a rule that allows me to take an Imperial Knight in an Imperium army and not lose my benefits? If so will you tell me the page it's on?
"Wandering Hero", page 64. One unit in a Super-Heavy Aux detachment gets Agent of the Imperium.
CKO wrote: Is there a rule that allows me to take an Imperial Knight in an Imperium army and not lose my benefits? If so will you tell me the page it's on?
"Wandering Hero", page 64. One unit in a Super-Heavy Aux detachment gets Agent of the Imperium.
Do note that only the army you soup your knight into will not lose benefits, the knight itself doesn’t get much. No warlord traits, bondsman abilities, vows, relics, or imperial/mechanicus traits. You also only get Freeblabe stuff vs being in a household. Also, unlike Chaos knights, we don’t get favors just exalted court upgrades which aren’t very good with no warglaives.
So IMOGW oversold how valuable this was going to be. By losing so many abilities on the big guy and costing CP, 99% of imperial armies are going to be better off running more of their own units over a knight.
So if you just enjoy the theme of running a knight in your army go for it, but know it’s not competitive.
Do note that only the army you soup your knight into will not lose benefits, the knight itself doesn’t get much. No warlord traits, bondsman abilities, vows, relics, or imperial/mechanicus traits. You also only get Freeblabe stuff vs being in a household. Also, unlike Chaos knights, we don’t get favors just exalted court upgrades which aren’t very good with no warglaives.
So IMOGW oversold how valuable this was going to be. By losing so many abilities on the big guy and costing CP, 99% of imperial armies are going to be better off running more of their own units over a knight.
Paradoxically, Freeblades are quite good on Dominus Knights. They don't get Bondsman abilities anyway so you lose less by taking them this way. Some armies like Custodes could potentially benefit from the long ranged anti-tank of a Castellan for example.
Alternatively, Gallants are pretty cheap (by Knight standards) and make one heck of a distraction-Carnifex to throw at the enemy if you are playing Guard for example.
I actually wonder if taking a trio of Armiger Warglaives would be a good source of anti-tank for certain armies. Particularly for Guard, whose only other good source is Leman Russes, which are slower and lack any kind of invul save. They could also be good for Custodes as an alternative to their nerfed jetbikes (although they could be better off with a Caladius or Achillus Dreads).
The melee Arminger reminds me a lot of a wulfen dreadnought. And they are great.
I am also painting up a castelan I can ally into my wolf's. The loss of CP probably makes it not worth it. But the triple redemptor really likes another big plasma backup.
It is probably not the best. But my friend keeps loosing and that is no fun for him. I got to mix it up a bit.
One question: The middle class of knight. Do they loose a gun if they are not mechanicus or imperial (AKA freeblade?)
They pick an allegiance, as they have the keyword, they just don't get the benefit of the Oath. See the Keywords section at the start, rather than the Oaths section.
If your unit is from any other noble house, or if it has the FREEBLADE keyword, you must nominate whether it owes allegiance to the Imperium or the Adeptus Mechanicus. You must replace the <QUESTOR ALLEGIANCE> keyword in every instance on its datasheet with either QUESTOR IMPERIALIS or QUESTOR MECHANICUS respectively.
Karhedron wrote: Freeblades still choose to be either Imperialis or Mechanicus so their Stubbers will be according to that choice.
They do? I thought that did not. Or perhaps I am thinking of Imperial Agents.
They still choose to be Imperialis or Mechanicum but they do not get the associated Questor Allegiance Oath (so no Sacristan Pledge or Vow of Honour). Possibly that is what you were thinking of.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Chivalric Oath: Oath: Defend the Realm, Oath: Lay Low The Tyrants
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [16 PL, -2CP, 320pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heirloom: The Bastard's Helm, Heirlooms of the Household, House Krast, Meltagun
. Armiger Helverin: Heirloom (Krast): The Headsman's Mark, Heirlooms of the Household, House Krast, Meltagun
Armiger Helverins [16 PL, 320pts]
. Armiger Helverin: House Krast, Meltagun
. Armiger Helverin: House Krast, Meltagun
Armiger Warglaives [24 PL, 450pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: House Krast, Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: House Krast, Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: House Krast, Meltagun
Armiger Warglaives [24 PL, 450pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: House Krast, Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: House Krast, Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: House Krast, Meltagun
Knight Errant [25 PL, -1CP, 460pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heirloom: Sanctuary, House Krast, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Revered Paragon, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Krast): First Knight, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Exalted Court: Master of Lore: Knightly Teaching: The Knight's Faith
Believe it or not, yours truly just won a 56-person GT with a Knights list.
The list:
Spoiler:
Super-heavy Detachment: House Taranis
Knight Paladin: Warlord (Ion Bulwark), Exalted Court: Princeps, Heirloom: Mark of the Omnissiah
Knight Crusader: Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, Knight Baron (Blessed by the Sacristans), Exalted Court: Master of Vox, Heirloom: Endless Fury
Knight Errant: Knight Baron (Knight of Mars), Heirloom: Heart of Ion
2 Armiger Warglaives: 2x Meltagun
2 Armiger Helverins: 2x Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Game 1
Mission: Death and Zeal
Opponent's Army: Grey Knights
I chose the secondaries Abhor the Witch, Yield No Ground, and Grind Them Down. My opponent chose Bring It Down, Purification Ritual, and I can't remember what else. My opponent made a huge mistake in deployment and left his Librarian (tooled up with lots of mortal wound output) exposed somewhat. He also didn't pop the GK equivalent of Transhuman Physiology on his Paladins soon enough, as I think he underestimated my firepower. I also did a ton of mortals to him with Calculated Targeting and Blessed by the Sacristans on the Crusader. I had given one of the Warglaives Advance & Charge from my Errant, and that Warglaive ran up and chopped the super-Librarian in half. My opponent still managed to make a game of it, but I did end up nearly tabling him in the end. Final score 85-72.
Game 2
Mission: Data-Scry Salvage
Opponent's Army: Black Templars
I took Duel of Honor, Grind Them Down, and Stranglehold, and my opponent took Bring It Down, Retrieve Nachmund Data, and again I can't remember what else he took. This game ended up being more one-sided than the last one, as thanks to some ice cold dice on my opponent's part he just couldn't do enough damage to my Knights to matter (he only took out one or two Armigers), even when Helbrecht got involved. He did manage to stop me from scoring super high though. Final score was 76-34.
Game 3
Mission: The Scouring
Opponent's Army: Craftworld Aeldari (Ulthwe)
I was pretty nervous going into this one. I don't remember exactly which secondaries I ended up taking other than Assassinate (my opponent had 5 characters including Eldrad Ulthran and the Avatar of Khaine). It was a pretty closely-fought game for most of it, although my opponent played a bit too cagily in the first couple of turns instead of shoving the Avatar straight down my throat (that brute absolutely eats Knights for breakfast!). The highlight of the game for me was when the Avatar killed my Crusader in close combat, and then it stood back up thanks to Our Darkest Hour. The game was an absolute bloodbath, with only my two Helverins, the Avatar, and Eldrad still standing when the game ended. Final score was 77-58.
Game 4
Mission: Tide of Conviction
Opponent's Army: Death Guard (The Inexorable)
I took Duel of Honor, Grind Them Down, and Stranglehold; my opponent chose Bring It Down, Retrieve Nachmund Data, and To The Last. I had a couple of lucky breaks during this game: I managed to vaporize my opponent's Warlord with Overwatch from my Errant (got me 3 points from Duel), and I made a couple of clutch saves with an Armiger to get my Stranglehold (he had shot at it with a PBC and it only had one wound left). It ended up being amazingly close and was my lowest-scoring game; my opponent is a really good player and very nearly defeated me. Final score was 63-60.
Game 5
Mission: Recover the Relics
Opponent's Army: Adeptus Custodes (with 3 Freeblade Armiger Helverins)
I took the same secondaries as the previous game; my opponent took Stranglehold, Bring It Down, and Raise the Banners High. This was another fairly brutal game, with both my and my opponent's dice being pretty fickle at different times. Ultimately, partially due to how the terrain was, my firepower ended up winning out, as Custodes don't do a whole lot of damage at range. Trajann was a raid boss though, taking out the Errant and a Warglaive basically by himself before being eradicated in one volley from the Crusader (which had itself survived being shot at and charged by some jetbikes). Final score was 92-63.
To say a 5-0 finish was unexpected would be a massive understatement; I hadn't had very much practice with Knights before this event. My battle scores were low enough that I shouldn't have won, but for a single thing; the two Tyranid players on the top table ended up with a draw, leaving me as the only player to go 5-0. This was my first GT win ever, and I'm psyched, to say the least! Imperial Knights are the real deal, folks. I will say that part of why I did so well wasn't any major skill on my part, but because the terrain was such that it favored shooting armies like mine. I also had some lucky breaks in most if not all of my games, and probably more than a little help from the man upstairs.
There is one change to my list that I want to make, and that is to switch out the Heart of Ion on the Errant for Sanctuary. Heart of Ion basically did nothing for me; I forgot to even use it in most of my games. Sanctuary would have been massively helpful, though. The other change I have briefly considered would be to switch out the Errant for a Preceptor. I don't like the firepower (or rather, lack thereof) on the Preceptor, but it would make the Renew the Oaths secondary much more viable, as an Armiger could do the action without having to give up its firepower. Duel of Honor is a cute secondary, but it's kind of a "win more" deal and it's not easy to get more than 10 points from it.
Amazing and excellent! I've been worrying about Knight staying power, what with all the mortal wounds running around, but looks like that can be compensated for, or at least avoided with some skill.
Question: my own current listcrafting drops one of the Warglaives for bumping the Errant to a Crusader and getting everyone Exalted Court and Carapace Weapons- a 3-3 list. Did the second Warglaive prove extremely useful? Or were you missing some firepower?
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Chivalric Oath: Oath: Defend the Realm, Oath: Refuse No Challenge
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [8 PL, 155pts]
. Armiger Helverin: House Taranis, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaives [24 PL, 450pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: House Taranis, Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: House Taranis, Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: House Taranis, Meltagun
Knight Crusader [28 PL, -2CP, 515pts]: Exalted Court: Master Tactician, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Heirlooms of the Household, House Taranis, Knight Baron, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Warlord Trait: Blessed by the Sacristans
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Knight Gallant [22 PL, -2CP, 420pts]: Exalted Court: Master of Vox, Heirloom: Sanctuary, Heirlooms of the Household, House Taranis, Knight Baron, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Warlord Trait (Taranis): Knight of Mars
Knight Paladin [25 PL, -1CP, 460pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Exalted Court: Princeps, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, House Taranis, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Revered Paragon, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark, Warlord Trait: Knight Seneschal
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
wuestenfux wrote:Great job! Congratulations!
What would you change for the next tourney?
The list was 3+4. Could you imagine 2+7 ?
The main change I've thought of is a small one: replace the Heart of Ion on the Errant with Sanctuary. Heart of Ion is not a terrible relic, but it's of limited use on an Errant and I only popped it once during the whole event I think. Having a 4++ in combat is always useful though, hence the switch. The other change I've considered is much more radical, and that is to replace the Errant with a Preceptor and the Preceptor-specific relic. I could then use the Renew the Oaths secondary thanks to being able to use the Teaching that allows an Armiger to perform an action and still shoot (with so few models you don't want to give up your shooting ever if you can help it). The 5+++ teaching could be useful as well, as the 6+++ from Taranis only works against normal wounds (not mortals). I don't particularly like 2+7 builds, mainly because you can't buff all the Armigers. Having more models is definitely a plus for board control though; that's something that becomes a struggle bus once a few Knights go down. One other player at the event was running a House Krast 2+7 list, but I don't remember how he did.
bmsattler wrote:Sincere congratulations! That is an amazing achievement and you have every right to feel proud of it!
Thank you very much! It was a wild ride to be sure!
RedX wrote:Amazing and excellent! I've been worrying about Knight staying power, what with all the mortal wounds running around, but looks like that can be compensated for, or at least avoided with some skill.
Question: my own current listcrafting drops one of the Warglaives for bumping the Errant to a Crusader and getting everyone Exalted Court and Carapace Weapons- a 3-3 list. Did the second Warglaive prove extremely useful? Or were you missing some firepower?
I got pretty lucky and managed to dodge most if not all of the mortal wound stuff (like Nids and their Maleceptors). If my first round opponent (Grey Knights) hadn't made such a major misplay, I would have felt it against him for sure, as that Librarian was loaded for bear!
So you were thinking of running 2 Crusaders? I don't think I would; the melee output on the others is too good to pass up, as your opponent will eventually reach you and you don't want to be stuck with just trying to kick them. Being able to do good damage in multiple phases is part of what makes Knights strong. For the same reason, it's good to have 2 Warglaives. Gives good board control, their firepower cannot be ignored, and they can actually hurt stuff in melee.
So you were thinking of running 2 Crusaders? I don't think I would; the melee output on the others is too good to pass up, as your opponent will eventually reach you and you don't want to be stuck with just trying to kick them. Being able to do good damage in multiple phases is part of what makes Knights strong. For the same reason, it's good to have 2 Warglaives. Gives good board control, their firepower cannot be ignored, and they can actually hurt stuff in melee.
Interesting, thank you! I suppose I've been looking at things a bit too like the pre-codex set-up, where Avenger Cannons were the best ranged weapon and Titanic Feat were in many cases better than the melee weapons. Amazing what the Thermal Cannon damage boost and a Sweep profile can do. Having an Errant's Advance-and-Charge for Warglaives (plus the super-Advance strat) is a nice one too- as you appear to have demonstrated.
Trick is finding ways to pare down everything else until I can squeeze that Warglaive in. Decisions, decisions...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also small suggestion but could master of lore be a good compromise on a more worthy chassis than a preceptor. You can then have a bondsman ability + stick action and shoot on a unit and you don’t have to deal with the preceptors lacklustre weapon
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also small suggestion but could master of lore be a good compromise on a more worthy chassis than a preceptor. You can then have a bondsman ability + stick action and shoot on a unit and you don’t have to deal with the preceptors lacklustre weapon
I actually thought of that, but that upgrade costs more points than the Master of Vox upgrade and I didn't quite have enough to spare. If I had 3 Warglaive models, I could make it happen, but alas I don't. My original list actually did have that upgrade, on a Gallant (which saves points over a Paladin/Errant/Warden), but I don't think Gallants are good unless you have a way to charge them in on the first turn. If you bring an Errant Princeps, just give the Gallant the Advance + Charge bondsman ability and go smash stuff! Otherwise, stick to the mixed loadout Knights or perhaps a single Crusader (which is what I had).
Also, I'm gonna go ahead and say it: the Crusader, with Endless Fury, a RFBC, and the Blessed by the Sacristans trait, is just disgusting. You'll get the full 6 mortals a lot of the time, and that is massively helpful (really made a difference in my games). Pop Calculated Targeting on it, and even your Stubbers are pumping out 2 mortals for each 6 to wound (one for BbtS, one for CT). Just nuts!
So the rumour is that we will be going to just six Command Points in a couple of weeks with the new Chapter Approved, and that the first Warlord Trait and Relic will no longer be free. To compensate, you will gain a CP in both players’ Command Phases. How will that affect lists?
My first instinct is that we will need to skimp on pre-game CP use. I would always like to start with at least 1 CP, so that I can Rotate Shields turn 1 even if going second. This would mean a combined maximum of 5 Traits and Relics. That is annoying for a 3+4 list, as they tend to want to have a trait and an heirloom on each big knight.
Yeah, a 3+4 list like mine would probably just have to live without one of the traits and/or one of the relics. That change is also going to make Defend the Realm even more of an auto-include, as far as Oaths go. Knights lists live and die by their ability to use strats. I doubt I would have been able to win that event without plenty of CP.
I'm concerned that the Calculated Targeting stratagem will paint a target on the knight that is built to take advantage of it. Big knights aren't that hard to kill and Imperials don't have many ways of changing that. Units like Tau Broadsides can sit behind a building and just savage a big knight.
What have people's experiences been in that regard? I see that most of the successful armies have been Taranis to take advantage of the warlord trait combo, so it works. Is it just a matter of luck, or not? What techniques have you used to keep it alive long enough to make a difference?
Feadair wrote: So the rumour is that we will be going to just six Command Points in a couple of weeks with the new Chapter Approved, and that the first Warlord Trait and Relic will no longer be free. To compensate, you will gain a CP in both players’ Command Phases. How will that affect lists?
My first instinct is that we will need to skimp on pre-game CP use. I would always like to start with at least 1 CP, so that I can Rotate Shields turn 1 even if going second. This would mean a combined maximum of 5 Traits and Relics. That is annoying for a 3+4 list, as they tend to want to have a trait and an heirloom on each big knight.
It depends if they adjust detatchments at the same time. Because a knights soup/aux becomes almost unworkable if half your cp is on detatchments.
bmsattler wrote: I'm concerned that the Calculated Targeting stratagem will paint a target on the knight that is built to take advantage of it. Big knights aren't that hard to kill and Imperials don't have many ways of changing that. Units like Tau Broadsides can sit behind a building and just savage a big knight.
What have people's experiences been in that regard? I see that most of the successful armies have been Taranis to take advantage of the warlord trait combo, so it works. Is it just a matter of luck, or not? What techniques have you used to keep it alive long enough to make a difference?
I think non-IK armies will very quickly get savvy to "Calculated Targeting" but I think this is not necessarily a bad thing. It is a powerful ability and having no counters would potentially be unbalanced. Taranis has a bit more flexibility to keep a big Knight alive for sure.
Beyond that, use of terrain will be helpful although a Crusader is not the easiest thing in the world to hide. One option is to make use of the Crusader as a threat. If you cannot hide it, move the rest of your army aggressively. Force your opponent to choose between targeting the Armigers holding your Objectives and the Crusader that is about to unleash a bucket of MWs on them.
I like the suggestion of using position and threat to influence targeting. I feel like Armigers under Bondsman are very tough and also our best cannon-fodder. The big knights are the weak link in the Imperial Knights army as once they die the Armigers get way easier to kill. I'm hoping to push an opponent hard enough with the Armigers that they have to deal with them first, not having enough left over to deal with the big knights for the endgame.
Feadair wrote: So the rumour is that we will be going to just six Command Points in a couple of weeks with the new Chapter Approved, and that the first Warlord Trait and Relic will no longer be free. To compensate, you will gain a CP in both players’ Command Phases. How will that affect lists?
My first instinct is that we will need to skimp on pre-game CP use. I would always like to start with at least 1 CP, so that I can Rotate Shields turn 1 even if going second. This would mean a combined maximum of 5 Traits and Relics. That is annoying for a 3+4 list, as they tend to want to have a trait and an heirloom on each big knight.
Keep in mind you get a CP at the start of each turn - both your turn and your opponents. If you spend out all 6 CP before the battle starts, you will have 1-2 CP by the time your opponent starts doing stuff, depending on whether you go first or second.
That's why the starting with 1 CP is so important. It lets you gain a CP in your opponents turn if they go first and still be able to rotate ion shields on a big knight.
Warcom just confirmed that we will be able to take multiple secondaries from faction-specific lists. With Stranglehold going away, the knights options are looking more appealing! We can take all three of our reasonable choices and not have to kill anything to do well.
Feadair wrote: So the rumour is that we will be going to just six Command Points in a couple of weeks with the new Chapter Approved, and that the first Warlord Trait and Relic will no longer be free. To compensate, you will gain a CP in both players’ Command Phases. How will that affect lists?
My first instinct is that we will need to skimp on pre-game CP use. I would always like to start with at least 1 CP, so that I can Rotate Shields turn 1 even if going second. This would mean a combined maximum of 5 Traits and Relics. That is annoying for a 3+4 list, as they tend to want to have a trait and an heirloom on each big knight.
Keep in mind you get a CP at the start of each turn - both your turn and your opponents. If you spend out all 6 CP before the battle starts, you will have 1-2 CP by the time your opponent starts doing stuff, depending on whether you go first or second.
Knights can actually start with 4. Defend the Realm gives you +1 Battleforged CP if you're Honored (which you can start Honored with Revered Knight or Banner of Macharius Triumphant). This ability specifically calls out that it raises the battleforgedCP by 1 on your turn. So while it's active you'll gain 2 CP on your turn and 1CP on your opponent's turn. Then you can take Cunning Commander, which lets you gain 1CP on a 5+ at the start of each of your turns. Based on the new rules:
If You Go First -2 Battleforged CP -1/3 chance at +1 CP from Cunning Commander
-1 CP from opponent's turn
Total: 3-4 CP
If Your Opponent Goes First -1 CP from opponent's turn (and you're stuck with this until your turn)
-2 Battleforged CP -1/3 chance at +1 CP from Cunning Commander
Total: 3-4 CP
You start with 1 Honor no matter what, you can take Revered Knight or the Banner but you don't have to. They do make you progress faster, or give you a buffer if you feel like you might trip over the Lay Low penalty first turn or something though.
bmsattler wrote: You start with 1 Honor no matter what, you can take Revered Knight or the Banner but you don't have to. They do make you progress faster, or give you a buffer if you feel like you might trip over the Lay Low penalty first turn or something though.
Huh, I thought we started with 0. Well, that makes it even easier.
Very close to finishing painting my dominus class knight but I'm concerned that he will be ready just in time to be unusable in the game :-(
Bringing a dominus effectively rule you out of getting the full 6CP refund from the SH detachment.
Now the 3CP you pay is half your CP before any Relics or Traits.
I just don't see how the dominus is usable under these new rules - its not like they are particularly good as they don't have any synergy with anything else but I want to run a nice mix of classes.
bmsattler wrote: You can run a Dominus with 6+ Armigers and get a full 6 CP refund.
Technically true but not a particularly useful build as the Armigers then can't get any Bondsmen abilities or the -1 Damage rule.
Ironically I think the best place for Dominus Knights is going to be as a Freeblade allied to something else. This is a bit daft as a lone Castellan was the key ingredient of Imperial Soup in 8th edition.
WisdomLS wrote: Very close to finishing painting my dominus class knight but I'm concerned that he will be ready just in time to be unusable in the game :-(
Bringing a dominus effectively rule you out of getting the full 6CP refund from the SH detachment.
Now the 3CP you pay is half your CP before any Relics or Traits.
I just don't see how the dominus is usable under these new rules - its not like they are particularly good as they don't have any synergy with anything else but I want to run a nice mix of classes.
Nephilim adds a rule that if you add a LoW auxiliary with the same army keyword than your warlord it costs 0 CPs If I read it correctly that's how you can add it
Problem is though that you're hard pressed getting a Dominus in the pts limit AND get the refund for the super heavy detach since it doesnt count towards that, which is the problem in the first place.
You need 3 Questoris or 6 armigers and a TITANIC.. and you cant have your cake and eat it too at 2k. Its not a detachment slot problem, its a game design problem.
Actually you can get a Castellan/Valiant into a 2k list and still get your full amount of CP. The problem is, you trade a lot of flexibility to have that chonky gun platform, and on some boards a savvy opponent won't give it anything worthwhile to shoot at.
Sample list I just concocted in Battlescribe:
Spoiler:
Super-heavy Detachment (House Taranis):
Knight Paladin: Warlord (Blessed by the Sacristans), Relic (Sanctuary), Exalted Court: Master of Lore (Teaching: The Folly of Mercy), Meltagun
Knight Castellan: Knight Baron (Ion Bulwark)
2x Armiger Helverin: 2x QCHS
2x Armiger Warglaive: 2x Meltagun, one has The Bastard's Helm
2x Armiger Warglaive: 2x Meltagun
2000 points, will start with 2 CP in the Nephilim book
Basically 2 big and 6 small models. I skipped taking Cawl's Wrath, as I'm not sure it's worth a precious CP to take it anymore. I'm not convinced a list like this can make it to top tables; I personally think the sweet spot is 3 big and 4 small, and I'm not just saying that because I had some success with that configuration. I think it gives a good mix of board control and sheer firepower, as well as target saturation (in lists with fewer big guys, losing one hurts a lot more). I am tempted to pick up a Castellan and a couple more Armigers and give it a go just to see what happens, but I don't actually think it's that good.
Thairne wrote: Problem is though that you're hard pressed getting a Dominus in the pts limit AND get the refund for the super heavy detach since it doesnt count towards that, which is the problem in the first place.
You need 3 Questoris or 6 armigers and a TITANIC.. and you cant have your cake and eat it too at 2k. Its not a detachment slot problem, its a game design problem.
Is it that 6 armigers and a titanic model clocks in at around 1500 point leaving little points for the questories? Because the only synergies in the codex are between questoris and armingers? Unless you pay a 3 cp tax?
Ps: anybody who knows how i navigate this in battlescribe? I can not choose traits.
Thats pretty much it.
The Dominus hull has no synergy with anything.
In a codex where armigers are the true kings, you can hardly afford to pass them up.
A crusader is pretty much better in every regard compared to a castellan except raw firepower, but then the synergies and board presence make up for that.
The SHAUX change helps with the CP cost, but then again, why not exclude him in the original detachment? A dominus class is, imo, reserved for 2500+ games (and even THEN, he remains suboptimal to just more questoris/armigers)
First, you can choose Imperialis House Griffith. They have a house-specific Warlord Trait that allows that knight to advance and charge.
Second, you can use the Knight Errant's Bondsman ability to give 1-4 Armigers Advance and Charge with a +1 to Advance/Charge. If you go with a Mechanicus house and choose the Princeps Exalted Court ability for an Errant, you can choose another Questoris knight as one of your Bondsman choices which gives that knight Advance and Charge as well.
As far as I know, those are the only options, at least for right now.
Thanks. I did read it. But next time I tryed to read it I could not find it.
I own one dominus I am painting up. I quite got into the colourscheme (an old tomb king scheme) I am getting into the swing of it. I was looking into having an army roughly like this:
Paragon of Honour
Knight errant, Warlord Ion Bulwark, High Lord, Banner of Makarius Triumohant
Castelan, Revered Knight, Cawls Wrath
2 ranged armingers
4 melee arminger
Castelan on mobile fire support. Blob the melee armingers around the errant to give them a long threat range. Have the ranged armingers cap points.
I start with 3 hinour and benefit from 3 oaths. Hopefully it snowballs me.
One thing that occurred to me in regards to running a Tyrant is that you can put one in a Super Heavy Aux Detachment and it will be 0 CP as long as it shares army keywords.
bmsattler wrote: One thing that occurred to me in regards to running a Tyrant is that you can put one in a Super Heavy Aux Detachment and it will be 0 CP as long as it shares army keywords.
I don't now if that helps. The Knight Errant (all questor-class) are all titanic.
Can I check battlescribe is saying forgeworld knights can't take warlord traits what stops you giving it one with the baron stratagem am I missing something or is BS wrong?
U02dah4 wrote: Can I check battlescribe is saying forgeworld knights can't take warlord traits what stops you giving it one with the baron stratagem am I missing something or is BS wrong?
Probably update your data, Knight Baron is available on Cerastus, Magaera/styrix and even Acastus Knights. You do need an IK warlord for that to work though.
I'll probably have to drop a relic at least from my GT-winning list. I figure if I start with 1 CP, then I get one in my opponent's turn (going second), I'll have enough that I can Rotate Ion Shields if necessary. Whereas if I go first, I'll get 2 additional CP (so 3 total turn 1) and can perhaps drop Calculated Targeting on something.
I think I would swap out Yield No Ground before Renew the Oaths or Honor of the House. Nephilim changed it to only 1 point for each of the bullet points, though you can score it in the first turn now. Its still harder to max out and punishes you for using your superheavy ability to fall back and shoot/charge, and punishes you if you have enemy units near your deployment zone. Fast enemies like Eldar or Tyranids can just throw a unit at you each turn and pull you down 5 points easy. Its still worth considering, but not an auto take for me.
bmsattler wrote: One thing that occurred to me in regards to running a Tyrant is that you can put one in a Super Heavy Aux Detachment and it will be 0 CP as long as it shares army keywords.
Yes, that works but you would still need 3+ Questoris or Titanic + 6 Armigers in your main detachment so I am not sure it helps. The difficulty is you cannot fit a Dominus + 3 Questoris + Armigers into 2000 points. Also if you want to take Dominus + Questoris + 6 Armigers you can do that in a standard Super-heavy detachment.
House Raven 2+7 came second in a 60+ player GT this weekend. The list:
++ Super-Heavy Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [105 PL, 2,000pts, 7CP] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Chivalric Oath: Oath: Defend the Realm, Oath: Lay Low The Tyrants
Detachment Command Cost
Gametype: Matched
Questor Allegiance: House Raven, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [24 PL, 465pts, -1CP]
. Armiger Helverin: Heirloom: The Bastard's Helm, Heirlooms of the Household, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaives [16 PL, 290pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Knight Errant [24 PL, 465pts, -1CP]: Character (Knight Lance), Exalted Court: Master of Vox, Heirloom: Sanctuary, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Order of Companions, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
Knight Errant [25 PL, 480pts, -3CP]: Exalted Court: Master of Lore, Heirloom (Raven): The Banner Inviolate, Heirlooms of the Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Knight Baron, Knightly Teaching: The Virtue of Courage, Order of Companions, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord Trait: Revered Knight
++ Total: [105 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++
The list is very similar to the one I have been playing and posted above. Having also tried Taranis 3+4 lists, I have to say I prefer the explosive speed of Raven and have had better results with it in my practice games.
I like the list a great deal. There are a good number of rerolls built in. I believe that it spends 7 CP on pre-game stuff with the Order of Companions and no-longer-free Warlord stuff.
I might swap out the Ironstorm Missile Pods for Icaris Autocannon, but that is a taste thing.
I'm a huge fan of taking a Freeblade unit of Helverins with the Hunters of Beasts ability. Swapping out advance and shoot for +1 to hit vs monsters/vehicles and +1 damage vs Titanic is worth it for me. That would make the Banner a little less useful though.
Yes, I count 7 CP as well. Two must go (so that you always have at least 2 CP to Rotate on Turn 1).
Good idea on Freeblade Helverins! I will wait for the FAQ, though. Page 64 seems to say the Martial Tradition is per model, while p 76 speaks of units - clear as mud.
EDIT: on second thought, I am not sure about the Helverins as Imperialis Freeblades. Would not all House Raven models lose the Sacristan Pledge, since every model in the Detachment no longer has the Questor Mechanicus keyword?
This GT list is similar to mine. Its good to hear that this list can work in a very competitive environment.
Spoiler:
House Raven 2+7 came second in a 60+ player GT this weekend. The list:
++ Super-Heavy Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [105 PL, 2,000pts, 7CP] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Chivalric Oath: Oath: Defend the Realm, Oath: Lay Low The Tyrants
Detachment Command Cost
Gametype: Matched
Questor Allegiance: House Raven, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [24 PL, 465pts, -1CP]
. Armiger Helverin: Heirloom: The Bastard's Helm, Heirlooms of the Household, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaives [16 PL, 290pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
. Armiger Warglaive: Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber
Knight Errant [24 PL, 465pts, -1CP]: Character (Knight Lance), Exalted Court: Master of Vox, Heirloom: Sanctuary, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Order of Companions, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
Knight Errant [25 PL, 480pts, -3CP]: Exalted Court: Master of Lore, Heirloom (Raven): The Banner Inviolate, Heirlooms of the Household, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Knight Baron, Knightly Teaching: The Virtue of Courage, Order of Companions, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord Trait: Revered Knight
Feadair wrote: Good idea on Freeblade Helverins! I will wait for the FAQ, though. Page 64 seems to say the Martial Tradition is per model, while p 76 speaks of units - clear as mud.
EDIT: on second thought, I am not sure about the Helverins as Imperialis Freeblades. Would not all House Raven models lose the Sacristan Pledge, since every model in the Detachment no longer has the Questor Mechanicus keyword?
You select the Freeblade Martial Tradition as a unit, and then the restriction on choosing a new one is based on whether a model has it before the unit is designated. Since the entire unit is designated at the same time, the model-by-model restriction would not kick in. This is my interpretation, but I'm pretty confident in it.
You are correct with the detachment Sacristan Pledge issue, but it can be sidestepped by making the Freeblade unit in a Superheavy Aux Detachment. Its free and has no real restrictions as long as your Warlord is an Imperial Knight.
You select the Freeblade Martial Tradition as a unit, and then the restriction on choosing a new one is based on whether a model has it before the unit is designated. Since the entire unit is designated at the same time, the model-by-model restriction would not kick in. This is my interpretation, but I'm pretty confident in it.
You are correct with the detachment Sacristan Pledge issue, but it can be sidestepped by making the Freeblade unit in a Superheavy Aux Detachment. Its free and has no real restrictions as long as your Warlord is an Imperial Knight.
The Freeblade Martial Tradition interpretation makes sense. However, wouldn’t your main Superheavy Detachment now only refund 3 CP, since it has neither 3 Questoris models nor 6 Armigers, as per the Knight Lance rules?
Will be having my 1st game with our new book VS the new csm this Sunday.
Will try this :
Taranis
3 Warglaives w stubber
3 Warglaives w stubber
1 Helverin
1 Paladin princeps
1 Crusader master tactician
Essentially the paladin puts his bondsman on the crusader who then can use calculated targeting for free every round.
Yet I rlly dislike only having 1 helverin but adding 1 instead of a Warglaive would put this list at 2010 pts with no way to reduce those anywhere else.
Total volume of shots feels really lacking
Will be having my 1st game with our new book VS the new csm this Sunday.
Will try this :
Taranis
3 Warglaives w stubber
3 Warglaives w stubber
1 Helverin
1 Paladin princeps
1 Crusader master tactician
Essentially the paladin puts his bondsman on the crusader who then can use calculated targeting for free every round.
Yet I rlly dislike only having 1 helverin but adding 1 instead of a Warglaive would put this list at 2010 pts with no way to reduce those anywhere else.
Total volume of shots feels really lacking
Thoughts? Worth a try? Big poo?
Alright, changed my mind and dropped the paladin and 2 Warglaives for a Castellan and 1 helverin. Went against creations of bile with a bit of everything (warp talons, posessed chosen, discolord, daemon prince etc.)
Luckily for me his firepower was very lacking and he had to go first so he had to move out of cover and come towards me.
Calculated targeting with the Castellan wiped out the warp talons. Got to use it again in turn 3 against the posessed who also got deleted by it. But outside of that it was very tough to kill anything. Helverins did some business tho. Cc I got stuck in his units due to not being able to kill much (errant +2 Warglaives killed 3 chosen) I had to fall back with Warglaives several times so that the rest of the army could try to atleast do a bit of extra damage before I could charge in again.
91:46 (the scouring) by far not as one-sided as the result suggests.
Either way : felt good to field knights again
Same List as above vs an Ultramarines castle . Mission was abandoned sanctuaries.
Short Version: wenn 2nd again so i had enough cp for calculated targeting with the castellan wich killed a United of 10 hellblasters weich was the centerpiece of the army. After that it got very swingy and again i feel if it hadnt been that one time getting lucky with the stratagem then my firepower wouldnt habe been anywhere close to being enough...89:46
There's a quick blurb over in the Auspex Tactics Youtube channel, along with a few other post-Nephilim lists. Short version: maximum Freeblade Armigers, with a Paladin handing out reroll-1's that stick via Helm Dominatus.
So from reading further Goonhammer articles over the past few months, it's looking like 2+7 builds are becoming more of a favorite among Knight players, and the Freeblade Lance is gaining serious traction. Nice to see that Knights are still out there getting it done, although once we start seeing proper Leagues of Votann lists they'll probably never crack the top 4, as that army no-sells Knights hard.
I'm going to be running Knights in another GT in a couple of weeks; my list will be very similar to my winning list from June, optimized for the Nephilim environment. We'll see if a 3+4 list can still work.
I have a question about how the Paragons of Honor (on one guy) martial tradition interacts with the Defend the Realm Oath.
It's clear that I'll get the CP and ObSec on the guy as long as he's still alive but how do the Pledge and Troth work? Do i Gain Honour only if HE ALONE holds more objectives than my opponent or is it still army-wide since it says "you" rather than "imperial knights models from your army"?
I'm going to play my first game with 9th codex this week.
My list is going to be
Taranis
Warlord
Valliant (1 cannon 4 missiles)
Ion Bulwark
Gallant (with Stubber)
Knight Seneschal
Sanctuary
Preceptor (multi laser)
Oath of justice
Virtue of courage
Warrior's hope
Warglaives x2 (stubbers)
Warglaives x2 (stubbers)
Oaths
Defend the realm
Protect those in need
secondaries
Honour of the house
Yield no ground
Duel of honour.
its 2000pts on the dot.
I should be playing 2 games vs space wolves this week (two different players) so any tips would be nice. I'm using the models I like and trying to make a reasonable list from it.
Just picked up Knights (stupidly cheap with the Battleforce box so I bought for my Local Store).
Is there any good videos about a crash course into Knights 9th Codex? I really would like to be able to watch and listen while I build/paint the knights so I can easier understand when I do read over the codex. I understand when fighting against them, but I never really learn any of the nuance for building the army, like what are actually free blades, bonding, etc...
I was reasently in the same situation. Knights is a bit of a hard liatvto grasp as it seems to be about stacking some 5 buffs on topp of each other. I did jot find a video that teaches you the basics. After some stumbling I just read up on it on wahapedia.
Read up on 'knight lances'. Basicly how many armingers or other knights you need to get 6 CP back in your army.
Read up on Oaths, as you need to have 2 and that will affect your gameplay. (Pick. Oats that fit your knights. The gain 1 ekstra CP is a good one.)
Then read up of the different bondsman abilaties of each of the queastoros knights. How they mix with armingers are quite important. (Errant giving armingers advance and charge + the advance 8 stratagem is a nice combo.)
From there you should have the basics and there are 3 different ways to go. 1. You can watch art of war/table top titans or any other video about them, either games or othervice. 2. Read up on goonhammer article about them. 3. Read up more on wahapedia about the different houses, exalted courts, relics and warlord traits and finally stratagems. As I said there are so many buffs in this book.
Lastly a small breakdown, the units come in 3 sizes:
The small armingers. The melee one with a chainsword and a huge Meltagun. The ranged one with loads of damage 3 shots. And the moirax from forge world that comes with anti infantery shots. All of these 3 are so good!
The questoris knights: Comes with a variety of weapons, but you mostly take them for the unique armiger buffs they can take. These are good.
Lastly you have the dominus knights: These are just big dumb bricks with guns. Little interaction with the rest of the army and limits your list building to get the 6 CP.
Forge world have some other knights as well, but they mostly seems a bit out of date and very exspensive.
At the moment you probably have a bit more then 1100 points of knights depending on what buffs you take. Picking up 2 more Questor knights or 1 more and 2 armingers is not a bad idea.
Well there are the forgeworld Moirax knights. They have a good balance of anti infantry. Double rad flamers has appeared in lists. As well as double Tesla. I have yet to see a list with double volkite but that sounds like a no brainer.
With arks of Omen making reserves free I've been thinking of a few ways to retool our lists.
Considering how our big boys are still way below the survival treshold for such expensive models, I went the "let's just hide turn 1 and come from reserves route" that smaller folks have been enjoying far longer than us. With a freeblade lance that comes easy, giving the BIG TOY Crusader Mysterious guardian means he'll ignore any kind of alpha strike while the swarm of armigers should keep him safe from most types of beta-strikes.
One Armiger will be a "Paragon of honour" poster boy destined to just sit on the home objective all alone and keep the extra CP going while also screening backfield interventions (an helverin would probably fit the role better but simply enough I only have 2 atm).
The usual trio of Strike and Shield plus a couple of Noble Combatants take ground while two Machine Focus armigers can go in reserves with the big boy and then maximize the output of their Thermal Lances when coming in therefore not being a total waste should they fail eventual charges.
The two Hunters of Beast keep their spot since they're one of the most efficent combo for their slot.
++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [108 PL, 1CP, 2,000pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Arks of Omen Compulsory Type: Lord of War
Army of Renown: Freeblade Lance
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Chivalric Oath: Oath: Defend the Realm, Oath: Lay Low The Tyrants, Oath: Refuse No Challenge
Detachment Command Cost
Game Type: 5. Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen
Questor Allegiance: Freeblade Lance
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [16 PL, -1CP, 310pts]: Freeblade, Martial Tradition: Hunters of Beasts, Questor Imperialis
. Armiger Helverin: Heirloom: The Bastard's Helm, Heirlooms of the Household, Questor Ironhail Heavy Stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Questor Ironhail Heavy Stubber
What can we hope for, or even expect, when 10th drops? The one thing that I am hoping for are the rumours that some models might get T9 or higher, something that our bigger Knights desperately needs. Would make thing go a long way in balancing the fact that currently its all about the Armigers really.
That's one thing I'm hoping for with Knights; more emphasis and reason to play multiple big Knights rather than a swarm of little ones. I play Knights because I want to run the big guys, but right now the meta is to only bring one, maaaybe two big ones and a bunch of Armigers. Boooring.
I know. I bought, assembled and painted three large ones, including a Preceptor, and then two of each Armiger. And every game I feel I am just missing a lot of board control because of that. That and an complete lack ability to hide from enemy shooting. Armigers are so much better for their points than the big guys.
ZergSmasher wrote: That's one thing I'm hoping for with Knights; more emphasis and reason to play multiple big Knights rather than a swarm of little ones. I play Knights because I want to run the big guys, but right now the meta is to only bring one, maaaybe two big ones and a bunch of Armigers. Boooring.
Exactly this, I don't mind a couple of armigers but I want to use big stompy robots.
The scuttlebut for 10th is that they will be leaning far heavier into using the base game mechanics for durability and lethality instead of piles of special rules - this should mean more toughness, less AP and more wounds to create a much broader curve of durability/lethality.
Agusto wrote: I know. I bought, assembled and painted three large ones, including a Preceptor, and then two of each Armiger. And every game I feel I am just missing a lot of board control because of that. That and an complete lack ability to hide from enemy shooting. Armigers are so much better for their points than the big guys.
Sounds like your area needs to work on some new terrain.
ZergSmasher wrote: That's one thing I'm hoping for with Knights; more emphasis and reason to play multiple big Knights rather than a swarm of little ones. I play Knights because I want to run the big guys, but right now the meta is to only bring one, maaaybe two big ones and a bunch of Armigers. Boooring.
Same. So much same. 3 would be the sweet spot with maybe four Armigers. That's the variety we need, because one big Knight is boring!
Agusto wrote: I know. I bought, assembled and painted three large ones, including a Preceptor, and then two of each Armiger. And every game I feel I am just missing a lot of board control because of that. That and an complete lack ability to hide from enemy shooting. Armigers are so much better for their points than the big guys.
If you play online: Use WTC terrain or any other layout with at least one big 9" tall L.
In real life: Agree with your local playgroup/casual opponents that at least one building in each deployment should count as "Tall to the sky" therefore hiding at least one Questoris knight so that either you're safe from turn 1 gunlines OR they need to expose themselves to see it from a weird angle, therefore getting in melta/charge range from the armigers as a tradeoff.
Personally I just embraded despair and currently run 10 Armigers plus a Mysterious Guardian Crusader as a freeblade lance and gak's been cash.3 tournaments in a row now where I match up with Tau who start the game all confident of an easy match up but then discover the hard truth.
So, Space Marines will get full rerolls of hit and wound against one unit per turn. I am really curious what Knights will get in the way of defensive buffs to be able to survive against that. Just a pip or two of T isn't going to cut the mustard, I am afraid.
And Tyranids can chose to have all 6:s to hit = auto wound. Good news.
It's not really a tactis question, but I guess I might find help really fast here without the need to open a new topic:
can anybody tell me the rough measurements of an Imperial Knight Model? I have a potential proxy model in mind and would like to check if it fits any of the common Knights.
The one I have has 20cm (~8'') height, 15cm (~6'') width, 10cm (~4'') depth.
Pyroalchi wrote: It's not really a tactis question, but I guess I might find help really fast here without the need to open a new topic:
can anybody tell me the rough measurements of an Imperial Knight Model? I have a potential proxy model in mind and would like to check if it fits any of the common Knights.
The one I have has 20cm (~8'') height, 15cm (~6'') width, 10cm (~4'') depth.
The basic knight is closer to 16cm tall, and is a little narrower then the oval base, at 15x11cm aprox.
The knights I have to measure have more of a walking/bracing pose. You might be able to make the stand more upright; I’ve not personally built one.
Sounds like yours is going to be a bit taller, by like an inch and a half, but the footprint should be OK.
They way they are designed, they are a complete nightmare to repose. You'd have to be pretty skilled not only at cutting and reassembling parts, but also at sculpting new parts, as all the hoses and pistons and stuff are made for the knight to be posed in the striding forward position. The Forge World knights, at least the Cerastus class ones, are fully poseable.
With all the leaks and what we know so far, i think the Castellan is gonna make a great comeback in many list not just knights. Vehicles are so much tougher now. And apart from the Las-impulsor most ranged knights weapons wound t11+ on 5+ what do you think?
nordsturmking wrote: With all the leaks and what we know so far, i think the Castellan is gonna make a great comeback in many list not just knights. Vehicles are so much tougher now. And apart from the Las-impulsor most ranged knights weapons wound t11+ on 5+ what do you think?
Everything depends on point costs now. I would love if we went to a typical list that was one Big Boy, 2-3 regular boys and 2-4 Armigers, vs the current scheme we see with a slew of Armigers supported by one or two Knights.
nordsturmking wrote: With all the leaks and what we know so far, i think the Castellan is gonna make a great comeback in many list not just knights. Vehicles are so much tougher now. And apart from the Las-impulsor most ranged knights weapons wound t11+ on 5+ what do you think?
Everything depends on point costs now. I would love if we went to a typical list that was one Big Boy, 2-3 regular boys and 2-4 Armigers, vs the current scheme we see with a slew of Armigers supported by one or two Knights.
Yeah i agree i don't play knights to spam armigers. If 3 armigers 3 questoris and 1 dominus fit in a 2k points list i woudlbe very happy.
So while this is the Chaos version, I think we can glean quite a bit from it.
The Battle Cannon appears to be the same - which means maybe the other weapons are analogs.
What do y'all think of that?
Assuming that we get the same options, it seems like Fist and gatling might be our best take-all comers combo. Battlecannon's d3 is nice but with AP -1 I'm not sure what we'd be shooting at.
Custodes? wound on 3's and they save on 3's so your average output would be 1 custode (rounding up). Our results would be similar against tanks and monsters.
Terminators? A little better, 1.2 dead terms. Still meh.
Gravis (and MEQ) 1.8, we could do better.
and we could expect to pick up 3-4 hoard type models or guardsmen.
Meanwhile with the gatling:
Custodes: 1-2 dead
TEQ: 4 dead
MEQ: 5-6 dead
GEQ: 10(!)
Obviously the melta is ideal against the heaviest of targets and it's probably worth taking one or two in your army, though you could leave that to the armigers.
Edit: I missed that the battle cannon is rapid fire d6+3. Much better, still overshadowed I should think.
The best part of this army is how easy it is to magnetize, making it so, so easy to change on the fly. Which will be good because I expect GW to kneejerk out points up before too long.
Well that's the point of having the indexes all digital, make the players do all the testing GW didn't do. I'm intrigued about why the Gallant went form the cheapest Knight to 3rd more expensive. Is the CC ability that strong?
So, not going the Vindicare-kills-Warlord premise with this. Focusing on rushing the whole army at the opponent. Lancer can double up Lancer's Duty, so a pair of Warglaives can advance and charge if needed. Valiant does the same trick - Deep Strike into a vulnerable spot and unleash some hurt. Warden gets the durability buffs.
Thoughts on this? Vs the other Lay Low list?
Also, generally, wasn't too impressed with the FW offerings. Lancer is the clear winner to me. Magaera and Moirox were major disappointments.
With the Cerastus Knight Lancer coming in plastic i thought i should have a look at it. And it seems that the Cerastus Knight Lancer is just a much better Gallant. And the Castigator ist just a better warden.
Gallant vs Lancer
Lancer(430p):
4+ inv. save
+3 wounds
+2 movement
Bondsman: advance and charge
free tank shocks
lance ability with strike profile so wounding everything on 2+
Gallant(400p):
30points cheaper
-1 to hit in melee
Bondsman: reroll charges and hits
+1 attack on strike
+2 attacks on sweep
option for taking a chainsword
both have a little bit of shooting which is mostly irrelevant i think.
I think the Lancer is so much better mainly because of its 4++ For me it is not even a question which one i take.
What do you think?
nordsturmking wrote: With the Cerastus Knight Lancer coming in plastic i thought i should have a look at it. And it seems that the Cerastus Knight Lancer is just a much better Gallant. And the Castigator ist just a better warden.
Gallant vs Lancer
Lancer(430p):
4+ inv. save
+3 wounds
+2 movement
Bondsman: advance and charge
free tank shocks
lance ability with strike profile so wounding everything on 2+
Gallant(400p):
30points cheaper
-1 to hit in melee
Bondsman: reroll charges and hits
+1 attack on strike
+2 attacks on sweep
option for taking a chainsword
both have a little bit of shooting which is mostly irrelevant i think.
I think the Lancer is so much better mainly because of its 4++ For me it is not even a question which one i take.
What do you think?
Lancer has better shooting for sure. Also, the Tank Shock is great and being able to Advance and Charge with that boosted movement gives it an absolutely incredible reach. I think it wins hands down.
