Are Schola Progenium students being steered towards a specific career (commissar, battle sister, etc.), with specialized training and indoctrination? Or do they all receive the same education and are then assigned their careers upon graduation based on their skills and personal character?
The Ciaphas Cain novels (I don't remember which one) implies that they start of together and then the branches kind of pick out their candidates according to potential. The students did not seem to have a say in it. I remember that it also implied that Stormtroopers are "what's left over". In the sense that progeniums that neither make the cut for Commissars, SoB, Priests etc. get indoctrinated to be Scions. Don't get me wrong, there was no doubt that a Scion gets excellent training, just that guys and girls not mentally fit enough to do the other jobs can still perform well in the militarum tempestus
That makes sense as to why Scions are overwhelmingly depicted as male, compared to Guard being male and female. All the best women for combat would have all ready been hived off for the SoB and the best of everything else into their respective branches. So very few left by the time the 'rest' end up as Scions.
I was under the impression from the Gaunt books that Commissars where specifically orphans of great families, high up military officers, etc. Some sort of way of 'looking after' loyal and useful bloodlines.
The Inquisition gets first dibs on trainees, then the Sisters, then the Commissars, then the Scions.
The Inquisition is a mystery in what it looks for, the Sisters look for the most faithful girls, the Commisars look for children that have strong constitutions and "morals", the scions still get the best of the rest who are still hard as nails.
There isn't any genealogy requirements for being any of the above btw. Why sift for "good bloodlines" when you have millions of orphans to indoctrinate? They either train well and get into one of the above organisations, or they train badly and just become schola staff, cleaners, instructors, kitchen staff, etc.
It doesn't stretch credulity to imagine that powerful people in the Imperium might try to influence some selections via back-channel communications. Like some Navy lord sending a memo saying, "I would be most pleased if the child of the late Admiral Horatio Bugleblower were selected for naval service."
It would also be quite believable if most such efforts were misplaced or ignored. It would also be very believable that someone like Ciaphas Cain might overestimate the degree of favoritism or nepotism in Schola selection.
The pool of Schola Progenium candidates is probably staggeringly large, so the number of individuals given "special consideration" would still be insignificant compared to the pool of trainees being processed through the system.
Pyroalchi wrote: The Ciaphas Cain novels (I don't remember which one) implies that they start of together and then the branches kind of pick out their candidates according to potential. The students did not seem to have a say in it. I remember that it also implied that Stormtroopers are "what's left over". In the sense that progeniums that neither make the cut for Commissars, SoB, Priests etc. get indoctrinated to be Scions. Don't get me wrong, there was no doubt that a Scion gets excellent training, just that guys and girls not mentally fit enough to do the other jobs can still perform well in the militarum tempestus
Gert wrote: The Inquisition gets first dibs on trainees, then the Sisters, then the Commissars, then the Scions.
The Inquisition is a mystery in what it looks for, the Sisters look for the most faithful girls, the Commisars look for children that have strong constitutions and "morals", the scions still get the best of the rest who are still hard as nails.
There isn't any genealogy requirements for being any of the above btw. Why sift for "good bloodlines" when you have millions of orphans to indoctrinate? They either train well and get into one of the above organisations, or they train badly and just become schola staff, cleaners, instructors, kitchen staff, etc.
The Inquisition seems to select for psychic potential, intelligence, and flexibility in thinking. Though obviously there are some Inquisitors that are more blunt or zealous than others, in general some degree of intelligence and open-mindedness/flexibility is necessary to get to the bottom of investigations and conspiracies.
Tallonian4th wrote: That makes sense as to why Scions are overwhelmingly depicted as male, compared to Guard being male and female. All the best women for combat would have all ready been hived off for the SoB and the best of everything else into their respective branches. So very few left by the time the 'rest' end up as Scions.
I was under the impression from the Gaunt books that Commissars where specifically orphans of great families, high up military officers, etc. Some sort of way of 'looking after' loyal and useful bloodlines.
There are multiple examples of female Storm Troopers, which always made me wonder, if you are good enough to be a female in the Scions, why aren't you in the Sororitas? I assume lack of faith, but still. Don't they all get mind scrubbed and implanted?
Again only from memory from Cains novels it was kind of implied: Scions have to first and formost follow orders, show battlefield initiative and no hesitation in face of death. There are a bunch specifically mentioned to show little to none emotional reaction to loosing close squadmates and later on when they do loose their nerve due to some Necron shananigans this is described as something really outstanding. As far as I remember it was implied that this is achieved through intense indoctrination/mindscrubbing.
Now here comes were it might be my personal headcanon but I think the kind of faith that is paramount for SoBs is nothing you can achieve by mindscrubbing and indoctrinating an individual, at least not in the way it's done to Scions. This faith has to come from deeper and from a kind of pure spirit.
Same as you need very strong characters and mentalities with quite a lot of people skills to get a really good commissar, which is also something you can only "implant" to a certain degree.
Sororitas aren't Astartes. They get the implants to be able to wear power armour but they are just well-trained, buff humans.
If a girl isn't chosen for the Sororitas then she just wasn't faithful enough.
Gert wrote: Sororitas aren't Astartes. They get the implants to be able to wear power armour but they are just well-trained, buff humans.
If a girl isn't chosen for the Sororitas then she just wasn't faithful enough.
Yeah, if only regular buff humans could manifest miracles. See, I hate this binary plot. There are normal humans, who can't do anything but die, then there are normal humans who if they pray REALLY hard, they can affect the warp. But it's TOTALLY not Warpcraft, they are completely....normal...humans.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, if only regular buff humans could manifest miracles. See, I hate this binary plot. There are normal humans, who can't do anything but die, then there are normal humans who if they pray REALLY hard, they can affect the warp. But it's TOTALLY not Warpcraft, they are completely....normal...humans.
It's not the Warp. The power the Sisters can manifest isn't based on Warp energy but something else entirely, possibly a purified version of it made possible through the worship of the Emperor. We don't know.
Also, what is and is not a miracle is down to personal interpretation. The Black Templars receive visions from the Emperor which they call miracles and Living Saints and various priests have performed miracles in 40k before. You can't take a game concept designed to give a specific army a unique play experience and then say it's dumb that Adeptus Mechanicus or Astra Militarum armies can't do miracles. In-universe they can but in game they can't because then the play experience wouldn't be unique.
And normal humans can do more than just die, the specific point of Psychic Awakening was that normal humans who hadn't been identified as Psykers suddenly began to manifest powers. Normal humans are still slowly evolving into a fully psychic race like the Aeldari, it has just been massively repressed by the Imperium due to the fear of Psykers.
All these problems were just caused by making sisters their own big huge thing. I would have loved it if Greg knights, deathwatch, sisters, and inquisition were all just one big mashed faction, it would solve the issue of sisters breaking lore to have their own weird game mechanic, and stop deathwatch from just being another marine faction.
It's not the Warp. The power the Sisters can manifest isn't based on Warp energy but something else entirely, possibly a purified version of it made possible through the worship of the Emperor. We don't know.
Wait. Do we know for sure that sisters' miracles aren't warp-based? My understanding was that it was left intentionally vague. My headcanon was that it was basically the same phenomenon you get with orks (red paint makes things faster because enough orks believe it does) but that the sororitas would be disgusted by the notion that their miracles were basically warp phenomena.
I'd put some eldar exarch powers in a similar category. "Subtle" psychic effects that manifest through a method other than the overt casting of powers. Like, a fire dragon with the (no longer current) burning fists exarch power probably doesn't cast a power in the same sense that a farseer does; I'd expect him to be utilizing seer runes if that were the case. But he's melting through ceramite with his punches, and non-fire dragon eldar don't seem to be able to learn the same trick. So to me, that suggests that spicy hands are a phenomenon brought about by the exarch's unusually intense/unrestrained obsession with combat filtered through the prism of his shrine's philosophies and metaphors. He spends so much time visualizing his blood lust as the dragon's flames that eventually the metaphor become something more literal.
The miracles and acts of faith performed by the Sororitas weren't effected by the Pariah Nexus which specifically dampened regular Warp abilities. So its not regular Warp power at least.
Gert wrote: The miracles and acts of faith performed by the Sororitas weren't effected by the Pariah Nexus which specifically dampened regular Warp abilities. So its not regular Warp power at least.
Ah. See, afaik, exarch powers weren't dampened by the nexus either. (Though maybe I'm wrong about that.) So I'm inclined to think that things like the pariah nexus and culexus assassins specifically impact the more proactive mechanism for casting powers but not the subtler ones. Do questionable pieces of ork tech and red paint still work in the nexus as far as we know?
To be fair, the Emperor (The most powerful psyker in human history) was capable of fighting alongside sisters of Silence, so being near Warp nullifiers doesn't mean they aren't warp based powers. Also, fighting near is not committing miracles next to. And again, we intentionally have zero clue as to how or what that particular piece of xeno tech does. For all GW cares, it could be sentient, and capable of selectively nullifying specific targets. Or not working on the same frequency that the sisters use.
Point is, saying the sisters are not users of warp magic because we don't know what they are is a poor argument. All the lore points to the manifestation of miracles, or a cessation of the natural order, as requiring some form of warcraft. And we have only been shown one version of the way the Warp touches humanity.
Unless we are saying the sisters are another species, or have somehow harnessed an ability to channel non-tainted by chaos Warp energy, it's fairly clear their "miracles" are the manifestation of the Emperor's will.
Are we sure they're manifestion's of the Emperor's will and not manifestation's of the individual sister's will or combined will of all the sisters present or something?
I'm not opposed to miracles coming from the Emperor himself, but it seems just as likely to me that the miracles are the result of the sisters' intense belief manifesting a "red ones go faster" type phenomenon.
It makes sense to me that one relatively unrestrained eldar mind (an exarch) could manifest the burning fists phenomena. A bunch of orks together can manifest a red paint phenomena. Some number of sisters (varying based on the intensity of their faith, latent psychic talent, etc.) can manifest miracle phenomena.
And then saints might be individuals who make particularly good psychic tuning forks with which to manifest phenomena OR they might be the result of snowballing faith. A random sister happens to be the one who manifests a miracle the first time around. Everyone's faith in the Emperor and in her swells because the miracle was witnessed. This swell of faith and focus on the individual means that said individual becomes the one to manifest the next miracle, and the cycle continues.
That kind of seems more likely than the Emperor picking out individuals to be special and only saving the day with miracles some of the time and then leaving his faithful to be screwed over at other times. Plus, it contextualizes miracles not as the personal attention of the Emperor as sisters believe it to be, but the manifestation of their own faith which in turn strengthens their faith in the cruel dogma to which they adhere. It's a tasty bit of extra grimdark.
Again, nothing is 100% sure in this universe of 40k. That's the problem. The Sisters, who frankly know more about their miracles than anyone else, seem to have reason to believe its God, or the Emperor, because it only happens when they directly appeal to HIM. I don't know if a sister has ever prayed to a Sentinel and gotten a miracle. Maybe Abnett should write a book about that next.
Pyroalchi wrote: The Ciaphas Cain novels (I don't remember which one) implies that they start of together and then the branches kind of pick out their candidates according to potential. The students did not seem to have a say in it. I remember that it also implied that Stormtroopers are "what's left over". In the sense that progeniums that neither make the cut for Commissars, SoB, Priests etc. get indoctrinated to be Scions. Don't get me wrong, there was no doubt that a Scion gets excellent training, just that guys and girls not mentally fit enough to do the other jobs can still perform well in the militarum tempestus
Gaunt's Ghosts book 15 makes the Scions sound completely different. The elite of the elite... but brainwashed and super strict
Is that the Gaunt book where he's on Perlia, and they get attacked by Nids? He references the "old schola" at least once per book. But no, the Scions are only whats left in the way that when you take all the top females for the Sororitas, the best leaders for the Commissars, and the Inquisition has their pick, the remainder are likely still worlds better than anyone else their age. Keep in mind anything said in a Cain book can be generally dismissed with a wave of the hand. He beats several space marines and an ork warboss with just his sword and a laspistol. It's not literal canon. Most of him is really an abject lie. It's why he's forced to write the memiors in the first place, to bolter morale.
I assume they have a general education phase which is the same for everybody. An equivalent to middle school. During which time the students are assessed regarding their eventual specialties and eventually sent to specialized schools(college equivalent) to finish their chosen/recommended career.
I imagine how much choice a student has depends on how proficient they are. If you're the A grade student, you probably have lots of choices of where to go. If you're the guy who flunks through Schola, you've probably got the choice of menial adept sorting paperwork for eternity or Stormtooper.
My headcanon is its a massive grimdark school anime. The bully jocks become Stormtroopers. The bullied losers become menial adepts. The student council members become Commissars and Arbitrators. etc... Student council are allowed to use lethal force to enforce school rules.
Interestingly Amber mentiones that Cains school records were middling at best, but his performance in combat drills excellent (which would imply a suitability for Scions in my opinion). And Cain mentiones that some of his teachers saw something in him, he did not see (at the time) when they selected him to be a Commissar. One could say his success speaks for itself.
My point is: it seems that Teachers have some freedom in choosing candidates, even when they - on paper - might not look like ideal specimens.
Cain’s background is also entirely designed to enable Cain to exist so that stories can be written with all of the tongues firmly attatched to cheeks. Vaguely plausible handwavium can be deployed to serve many purposes. Personally I really like the Cain books, but they are Definately at the lighter end of the spectrum with the jolly tales of boarding school, rather than horrific tales of mutilation and abuse.
Worth noting Inquisitors can recruit just about anyone, and the individual Inquisitor appoints their apprentice or apprentices as they see fit.
So not every Inquisitor will have been from the Schola - though it will provide a baseline of supply of course.
Commissars need to show command skills, which is not something everyone has. It can be taught, but someone with a natural lean toward leadership/authority is still going to be your best bet.
There are a fair number of postings left below the stormtroopers before they get to the target practice stage - intermediate priest positions, scribes and adepts and similar positions in the ecclesiarchy, administratum, and local governance, potentially areas within the militarium and navy such as logistics, and so on.
Progenium graduates are all fairly well educated by Imperial standards and even the least of them still represents years of indoctrination and soft power for the ecclesiarchy wherever they end up - it's would be those that fail the test of loyalty that are more likely to die than those who are simply inept. The Imperium has no shortage of work for a pious imbecile.
Tallonian4th wrote: That makes sense as to why Scions are overwhelmingly depicted as male, compared to Guard being male and female. All the best women for combat would have all ready been hived off for the SoB and the best of everything else into their respective branches. So very few left by the time the 'rest' end up as Scions.
I was under the impression from the Gaunt books that Commissars where specifically orphans of great families, high up military officers, etc. Some sort of way of 'looking after' loyal and useful bloodlines.
In the old days thats what the schola were, orphans of imperial officers and senior officials.
Someone mentioned earlier that commissars were chosen for leadership abilities. I disagree, being very execute-y isn’t a great leadership quality. I imagine much more they are chosen due to their love of rules and sociopathic tendencies.
Commissars still need leadership abilities, executions are for ineffective officers or cowards who flee the battle. Commissars are still political officers who have to be able to encourage and lift the spirits of the soldiery with tales of glory and heroism.
You will absolutely get the ones who are very trigger-happy, such as the one leading the R.I.P. detachment in The Armour of Contempt, but you will also find the inspiring type, such as the Belladon Commissar in His Last Command. What makes a "good" Commissar is that they are able to inspire and have comradery with a soldier one minute then gun them down if they flee in the next.
I think it's a fair point to say that the writings in Cain's books show an average lack of actual study. He makes it sound more like Hogwarts than Harvard. He attended lectures, did a lot of sports (Scrumball) and did combat training. One of the books talked about how his Swordsmanship teachers thought he was one of the greatest pupils they'd ever witnessed, able to beat most of the teachers at an early age.
Again, if this is to be believed at all, it's likely his martial prowess was the deciding factor, rather than his grades on High Gothic or philosophy.
The Cain's books were also written long before anything was about the Schola, even then, the only other detailed source for it that I know of is the Scion Codex, which makes the Schola sound hyper mega super grimdark.
It would explain the wild differences between Cain, Mortensen, Andrej or Gaunt versus the more emotion-drained Scion from the latest Gaunt's book. Then again, Raine and her Scion buddy have more personality than what the codex implies, though she, at least, seems more of a typical Commissar than the other characters mentioned prior.
TBF just because most Scions got mindwiped when they were young doesn't mean they stayed that way or that some were even wiped in the first place. I mean look at Astartes, they get massive amounts of hypno-indoctrination and mind-wiping but still have personalities, well most do at least.
If we take the Armageddon Stormtroopers as an example, the entire planet is dedicated to war just like Cadia or Catachan. Cadian Kasrkins are very close to what Scions are but they don't come from the Schola. The Armageddon Stormtroopers could just be the same, veteran soldiers of the Steel Legion with advanced tactics and training that brings them to the equal of what most other worlds and Regiments would call Scions. 40k is a big galaxy, there's no reason both instances can't be true. I mean in the Gaunt book with the Scions, Rawne specifically calls them Stormtroopers and "Glory Boys", while he refers to the Astra Militarum as the Imperial Guard.
Didn't Helsreach campaign take place long before they were created? I mean they were Storm Troopers, but I thought Scions were something basically created to be a "better than Stormtrooper" thing. Whereas Stormtroopers were specifically a Unit based thing, where they are property of the specific regiment, Scions were a specialized task force, created to operate completely outside of and independent of IG Command. Like, they don't need tank or heavy arms detachments, a Scion Force is completely self contained.
I am likely wrong here. I admit it, my headcanon as I was creating my scions in 8th, and reading their codex entries.
Regarding my mentions of the Cain books: of course, their lore value has to be evaluated very critically. I just wanted to mention how it is described there.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Didn't Helsreach campaign take place long before they were created? I mean they were Storm Troopers, but I thought Scions were something basically created to be a "better than Stormtrooper" thing. Whereas Stormtroopers were specifically a Unit based thing, where they are property of the specific regiment, Scions were a specialized task force, created to operate completely outside of and independent of IG Command. Like, they don't need tank or heavy arms detachments, a Scion Force is completely self contained.
I am likely wrong here. I admit it, my headcanon as I was creating my scions in 8th, and reading their codex entries.
Stormtroopers and Scions are the same thing. GW turned the single unit of Stormtroopers into the Militarum Tempestus "army" with a plastic kit for Scions (Stormtroopers), a command squad, a new Commissar, and the Tauroxes. Old Stormtroopers and newer Scions do the same things, Valkyrie drops and infiltration missions with only the name and model design changed.
Kasrkin, Catachan Devils, Death Korps Grenadiers, Steel Legion Stormtroopers, and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are all variants on the wider Scion soldier template with similar weapons and advanced training but with different mission parameters e.g. the Grenadiers function as more heavily armed and armoured Veteran squads that fight alongside regular troops and Catachan Devils are primarily for long-range long-term infiltration or search and destroy missions.
The Steel Legion was never described as having its own in-regiment Stormtroopers, as far as I know, and most instances that I know of such units, they have distinct names (Grenadiers, Kasrkins). I think the easy distinction you can make is that Stormtroopers/Scions are their own things, and Grenadiers are the term for vets with hellguns and carapace armor. Kasrkins are just renamed Grenadiers.
Bobthehero wrote: The Steel Legion was never described as having its own in-regiment Stormtroopers, as far as I know, and most instances that I know of such units, they have distinct names (Grenadiers, Kasrkins). I think the easy distinction you can make is that Stormtroopers/Scions are their own things, and Grenadiers are the term for vets with hellguns and carapace armor. Kasrkins are just renamed Grenadiers.
Helsreach has them as POV characters like halfway through the book chief. Like the Death Korps Grenadiers they're the cream of the crop, the best of their Regiments. We've also seen this with the Royal Volpone Regiments where their elite Regiment, the Volpone 1st maintained troops with Carapace Armour and Hellguns (Hot Shot Lasguns).
The Kasrkin are actually closer to the Scions as they get picked out of the Whiteshield ranks and sent to special academies (well they did before Cadia went boom).
There are Regiments of Grenadiers, Scions, Kasrkin, and Stormtroopers and their missions, tactics, and equipment often cross paths. They also often don't get deployed en-masse but are used as force multipliers or as guards for high-ranking officers.
I've read Helsreach, and through it all Andrej is refered as a Stormtrooper, hence why I assume he's an actual Scion/Stormtrooper rather than a Kasrkin/Grenadier or whatever the Steel Legion's equivalent is.
My point wasn't that they aren't the exact same thing on paper, but that the LORE has them as separate. The Books still don't reference Scions at all. Just Storm Troopers. Hell, they reference Elysian Drop Troops, but not Scions, which are essentially that with storm troopers. Also, Storm Troopers don't have access to the Scion Weapons. Scions are the only unit in the game that can use the Hot Shot Volley Guns. A Normal unit of Cadians cannot use or pick a Taurox Prime. The rules and the Lore seem to keep them seperate. That's all I am trying to point out.
Stormtroopers and Scions are the same thing.
Prior to 6th Edition there were no Scions and when 6th came out Stormtroopers were renamed to Tempestus Scions within their own special branch called the Militarum Tempestus.
Certain Guard Regiments maintain their own Scion equivilant and while these are similar to Scions they are not Scions.
Does that clear it up?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I think it's a fair point to say that the writings in Cain's books show an average lack of actual study. He makes it sound more like Hogwarts than Harvard. He attended lectures, did a lot of sports (Scrumball) and did combat training. One of the books talked about how his Swordsmanship teachers thought he was one of the greatest pupils they'd ever witnessed, able to beat most of the teachers at an early age.
Again, if this is to be believed at all, it's likely his martial prowess was the deciding factor, rather than his grades on High Gothic or philosophy.
Only if you take a very shallow dive -
As far as I know Hogwarts does not use human prisoners as targets for live fire exercises or to practice torture techniques on -but I don;t like Harry potter so maybe wrong
Cain has plenty of darkness its just more subtle and that Cain and Amberley are seemingly "nice" people but they can and will do things we think are horrible....
Also Amberley often corrects Cain's slips or errors
That being said its just a source and written before the more recent super girm-dark Stromtrooper stuff was written. I prefer his version but the Imperium is big enough for both.
As far as I know Hogwarts does not use human prisoners as targets for live fire exercises or to practice torture techniques on -but I don;t like Harry potter so maybe wrong
They mostly torment animals and the occasional magical creature rather than other humans. Although the school culture is set up to encourage animosity and infighting between the school-assigned factions.
I prefer his version but the Imperium is big enough for both.
Agreed. Enjoy what you enjoy, but I really liked how Cain flavored the setting. Still full of terrible, terrible things even on a mass scale, but with enough patches of not-awful to make me believe human beings would be able to stand it. What's her face on Amberley's team was basically selling hotdogs (or something like them) on the street when we first met her. There are hot dog vendors. There are people with enough pocket cash to buy street food in a busy city but not so much cash that they'd prefer to avoid the questionable street food.
As far as I know Hogwarts does not use human prisoners as targets for live fire exercises or to practice torture techniques on -but I don;t like Harry potter so maybe wrong
They mostly torment animals and the occasional magical creature rather than other humans. Although the school culture is set up to encourage animosity and infighting between the school-assigned factions.
I prefer his version but the Imperium is big enough for both.
Agreed. Enjoy what you enjoy, but I really liked how Cain flavored the setting. Still full of terrible, terrible things even on a mass scale, but with enough patches of not-awful to make me believe human beings would be able to stand it. What's her face on Amberley's team was basically selling hotdogs (or something like them) on the street when we first met her. There are hot dog vendors. There are people with enough pocket cash to buy street food in a busy city but not so much cash that they'd prefer to avoid the questionable street food.
Agreed - or the way Amberely remembered fondly her primer as a child with the burning wheels crushing heretics. I think you need the lighter stuff to make the darkness more effective - good comedy dramas excell at this.
Exactly. It's way more fun slaughtering a world when its inhabitants have something worth living for!
Otherwise it's like, "Oh. You're cutting me in half with a chainsaw? Heck yeah, dude. I was looking at another miserable decade of back-breaking labor and disgusting food rations before my poisoned body finally fell into the mud and got trampled by my coworkers. A couple seconds of chainsaw pain instead sounds great!"
From the Imperial Guard 2nd Edition Codex under Stormtroopers:
"The Storm Troopers are the Imperial Guard's best fighting regiment. Unlike other regiments they are recruited from all across the Imperium, and they wear a distinctive uniform which is instantly recognizable...The regiment is unusually large, with as many as ten thousand men under arms at one time...Storm Troopers are recruited from the orphan sons of Imperial officials from all over the galaxy. The families of men who die in the Emperor's service are looked after well by the missions of the Imperial Cult, the most famous of which are the Schola Progenium...
Many of those who pass through the hands of the Schola Progenium are initiated into the Adeptus Terra. Some find their way into the Inquisition. The Ecclesiarchy welcomes the studious and the most zealous. For the natural warriors and leaders the Imperial Guard offers a place amongst the staff officer corps or the Storm Troopers. Many Commissars found the unbreakable strength of their faith in the missionary orphanages..."
So there you go. Natural warriors and leaders go to be staff officers (booerns!) or the Storm Troopers (urah!). Hopefully this puts your mind at ease.
The Schola isnt really that much different from most schools.
.1% maybe, get creamed by the Inq or Navs.
60% are destined for mundane office work.
24% go to the sisters, Mainly in hosptallier roles mostly not combat rolls.
10% who display some aptitude for physical sports, or just like beating other people up go to the Arbites, Storm Troopers.
5% go to church.
1% just seem manage do all the above.
Theres a lot of overlap there, but Cain managed the gift of the gab, with a arm to back it up. And lots of lots of luck.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: All these problems were just caused by making sisters their own big huge thing. I would have loved it if Greg knights, deathwatch, sisters, and inquisition were all just one big mashed faction, it would solve the issue of sisters breaking lore to have their own weird game mechanic, and stop deathwatch from just being another marine faction.
I'm not sure if Deathwatch an Grey Knights existed prior to the 3rd ed "Chambers Militant" era, but certainly Sisters did. They had a 2nd edition codex, and it didn't include the Inquisition. In this era, the connection with the Ecclesiarchy was the army's focus; the 3rd ed. Witch Hunter dex, awesome as it was, tiptoed at the edge of Retcon; the Sisters' role as the Chamber Militant of Hereticus took precedence over their role as the fighting force of the Ecclesiarchy. We were essentially ignored from 4-7 (with plastic Celestine being a part of the transition between 7th - 8th). Currently, GW is leaning hard into the Ecclesiarchy- especially in 9th where they have finally made something of Priests.
Faith is not a game breaking mechanic- it has existed since the beginning, though it has taken many forms over the years, mimicking psychic powers was never a thing for them- faith has had different mechanics from edition to edition, but it has always been its own mechanic.
As for Death Watch, Kill Teams- of which there are now four distinct varieties, are quite unique as far as marines go; Space Wolves and Blood Angels are far closer to standard, generic Marines than DW are; specialisms and special ammo seal the deal, but it's the Kill Teams that make the DW what they are. Their fluff is also radically different- they don't exist as a "Chapter" - instead, they are a collection of independent watch fortresses spread across the galaxy.
You're not the only one to suggest consolidating the Imperial Factions this way. It would be a game breaking decision for anyone who plays a Chamber Militant army- there is literally no way it can be done without losing a tremendous number of options, a tremendous amount of fluff and flavour. They would outright have to cut datacards from every chamber army to make it happen; we'd lose subfaction traits, relics and WL traits- stuff that I've been wanting for since second edition.
If anything, GW should make an Imperial Agents dex. The Chamber Militant books are fine as they are, and both the Imperial Agents rule and the detachment system both facilitate the flexibility that the Inquisition needs to work with its Chambers; they just need a real list. They don't even need new units if done properly. I'm still hoping GW uses Kill Team to solve the Inquisition problem by making GOOD acolyte units.
I think people are overlooking something with the faith and miracles bit. All those who show true faith get sent to the ecclesiarchy. There they get separated into the subset of girls who have the best physical aptitudes and also are surgically compatible with their power armour interface ports (some will doubtless outright reject the implants on a physiological level) who get sent to the Sororitas while everyone else (male and female) gets sent to the priesthood.
So there should be priests and choristers and all that who are capable of manifesting miracles but they are going to be lone individuals most of the time so the net effect is probably less. That said a full choir of the cream of the crop singing the Emperor’s praises on a holy day on a shrineworld? Probably glow with divine power as a bare minimum and might well coincidentally heal the entire congregation…
Miracles are a very rare occurrence within the Imperium (SoB Miracle Dice don't count because that's a game mechanic).
The various Convents of the Sororitas recruit from many different places with the only requirement being intense faith. Not everyone within the Order has to be a Battle Sister after all.
I always found it odd that Rhaine didn't get sent over to the convents rather than the Commissariat. She's an incredibly fervent person, but I guess her father's last act, and her mother's "fall" had something to do with her getting passed over.
Gert wrote: It generally is odd that Commisars aren't men. Sometimes a girl from the Schola just doesn't believe hard enough in the God Emperor to be a Sororitas.
Generally doesn't believe hard enough in the God Emperor is often enough to get someone blammed....
Gert wrote: It generally is odd that Commisars aren't men. Sometimes a girl from the Schola just doesn't believe hard enough in the God Emperor to be a Sororitas.
Generally doesn't believe hard enough in the God Emperor is often enough to get someone blammed....
Uh, no, not even slightly? They’re very down on worshipping the wrong gods for obvious reasons but they don’t seem to have it out for atheists and holy-day-only types nearly so much.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Generally doesn't believe hard enough in the God Emperor is often enough to get someone blammed....
No. Everyone in the Imperium believes in the God Emperor. The reality of that belief is a different matter.
For example, some Veterans of the Guard believe the Emperor is divine but doesn't actively intervene in people's lives and is simply a silent witness to humanity's collective suffering.
Those who are more zealous in their belief utterly accept that the Emperor makes Himself present in the lives of every human in one way or another. The latter tends to be very fast and loose with their assumptions e.g. a bad crop indicates the Emperor's displeasure and the farmers must repent and do extra worship.
Most people just believe He exists and that He is their God.
Equally compare the shiria calpurnia (enforcer) novels and how a lot of the public reacts to Sanguinalia - its basically an excuse for a city-wide drinking binge with
"Oh yeah. Plus that piety thing. God Emperor Yay! 'Nother round please..."
I'm not declaring what is or isn't heresy. But the fluff is the fluff. Many books have fluff where especially fervent individuals (Sisters and Comissars) have killed people for just not believing in their specific modality of belief. In the Cain book, the other Comissar in charge of the Tallarns. Bemidji(?) is "A constant god botherer" who goes around challenging others to fights or straight up killing people for not enough belief. The Sisters Omnibus has the Cleric in the first book basically doing the same.
Mr_Rose wrote: I mean, imagine if there were random individuals of a particular faith today that went around screaming at people for believing wrong or something…
Don't say stuff like that. If you do it will result in a 25 page thread and the word Nazi getting tossed around.
I’m just saying, it’s exactly the opposite of unrealistic that there are individuals or whole groups within the Imperium and even the Ecclesiarchy itself, that have wildly variant attitudes towards worship of Him on Terra. Realistically everything from people who still adhere to the Imperial Truth (most likely space marines and their serfs, also Custodes and SoS) through high days and holy days-only types to the fervent true believers and the outright fanatic zealots.
The Imperium does not have the time, and the Administratum does not have the budget, to individually police the attitude of every citizen. If it did, inquisitors wouldn’t be necessary to root out and identify aberrant cults.
There’s also the problem that if you went around incarcerating or executing everyone that failed to live up to standards espoused by the fanatics, you’d rapidly find yourself running out of people…
I mean, for a better part of the Series, Gman is trying to gauge whether or not his Militant apostolic is a fanatic or a a deluded psychopath. It reminds me a lot of the scene in "Constantine" where Gabriel is talking to John Wick, and Neo says "he's met god, he knows he exists" and Gabriel replies the act of believing without knowledge or reason is faith." So therein lays the dilema. Are Astartes truly "faithful" if they KNOW the emperor exists and grants miracles, but yet is not an actual god? Are the Sisters truly faithful if they KNOW their "God" grants miracles and exists? This is why The Progenium exists I think in a way, to winnow out the faithful from just merely fanatic or just exceptionally skilled.
This also kinda lends to my belief that Sisters are Made, not found. The average human cannot do what a Sister does without some Deus Ex Machina. The Progenium does something to the SoB "aspirants(?)" to make them able to do what they do with regularity. Which would explain why some exceptionally fervant women get pushed onto other careers. They simply don't have the "it" factor for whatever the SoB Process does to a human. Sorta how SM are made. They have to be genetically capable of assimilating with the implants.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I mean, for a better part of the Series, Gman is trying to gauge whether or not his Militant apostolic is a fanatic or a a deluded psychopath. It reminds me a lot of the scene in "Constantine" where Gabriel is talking to John Wick, and Neo says "he's met god, he knows he exists" and Gabriel replies the act of believing without knowledge or reason is faith." So therein lays the dilema. Are Astartes truly "faithful" if they KNOW the emperor exists and grants miracles, but yet is not an actual god? Are the Sisters truly faithful if they KNOW their "God" grants miracles and exists? This is why The Progenium exists I think in a way, to winnow out the faithful from just merely fanatic or just exceptionally skilled.
Astartes don't generally believe in miracles and do not worship the Emperor as a God. He was a warrior, a leader, and their creator but He was still just a man.
The Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy very much believe in miracles and the divinity of the Emperor because they are religious.
The Schola exists to turn the orphans of Imperial officers and families into tools for the Imperium. Most Schola "graduates" end up working for the Administratum and it's only the exceptional candidates that get selected for the Ordos, Militarum, Assassins or Sisterhood.
This also kinda lends to my belief that Sisters are Made, not found. The average human cannot do what a Sister does without some Deus Ex Machina. The Progenium does something to the SoB "aspirants(?)" to make them able to do what they do with regularity. Which would explain why some exceptionally fervant women get pushed onto other careers. They simply don't have the "it" factor for whatever the SoB Process does to a human. Sorta how SM are made. They have to be genetically capable of assimilating with the implants.
Sisters only get Power Armour plugs. That's it. They are just buff and extremely religious humans. There's no special mutation or secret implant that makes them special, they just really believe in their God and sometimes manifest Living Saints.
Miracles are impossible to prove as actual things and that's the point. A convent of Sisters holds their priory while a Cannoness banishes a Daemon with her Rosarius? That's a miracle. Doesn't matter if the symbols of the Emperor have power against Daemons because He is the Anathema to their kind, clearly, it was His divine will that gave the Cannoness her power.
You keep trying to quantify faith in material terms but by doing so completely miss the idea.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I mean, for a better part of the Series, Gman is trying to gauge whether or not his Militant apostolic is a fanatic or a a deluded psychopath. It reminds me a lot of the scene in "Constantine" where Gabriel is talking to John Wick, and Neo says "he's met god, he knows he exists" and Gabriel replies the act of believing without knowledge or reason is faith." So therein lays the dilema. Are Astartes truly "faithful" if they KNOW the emperor exists and grants miracles, but yet is not an actual god? Are the Sisters truly faithful if they KNOW their "God" grants miracles and exists? This is why The Progenium exists I think in a way, to winnow out the faithful from just merely fanatic or just exceptionally skilled.
Astartes don't generally believe in miracles and do not worship the Emperor as a God. He was a warrior, a leader, and their creator but He was still just a man.
The Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy very much believe in miracles and the divinity of the Emperor because they are religious.
The Schola exists to turn the orphans of Imperial officers and families into tools for the Imperium. Most Schola "graduates" end up working for the Administratum and it's only the exceptional candidates that get selected for the Ordos, Militarum, Assassins or Sisterhood.
This also kinda lends to my belief that Sisters are Made, not found. The average human cannot do what a Sister does without some Deus Ex Machina. The Progenium does something to the SoB "aspirants(?)" to make them able to do what they do with regularity. Which would explain why some exceptionally fervant women get pushed onto other careers. They simply don't have the "it" factor for whatever the SoB Process does to a human. Sorta how SM are made. They have to be genetically capable of assimilating with the implants.
Sisters only get Power Armour plugs. That's it. They are just buff and extremely religious humans. There's no special mutation or secret implant that makes them special, they just really believe in their God and sometimes manifest Living Saints.
Miracles are impossible to prove as actual things and that's the point. A convent of Sisters holds their priory while a Cannoness banishes a Daemon with her Rosarius? That's a miracle. Doesn't matter if the symbols of the Emperor have power against Daemons because He is the Anathema to their kind, clearly, it was His divine will that gave the Cannoness her power.
You keep trying to quantify faith in material terms but by doing so completely miss the idea.
Assertion. You have no clue what makes a Sororitas a Sororitas. That's like saying you know what makes the force. Or how Vampires are invisible. It's a completely fictional made up thing that has never been clearly or adequately explained in sufficient detail. A SoB could have Metaclorians shoved up her nose for all you or I or anyone knows. She could have a "SUPER SECRET SPECIAL PRAYER" said over her that gives her the ability to do the special non-human stuff she does.
No one here has the faintest clue aside from vague fluff rumors about what makes anything anything in the 40k universe. Astartes at least are clearly defined as KNOWING the emperor has Extra-ordinary powers that no other being in Humanity's history has ever had, but he is NOT a God. Only becuase it's clearly written that he told all the Primarchs he wasn't. And they passed it down.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Assertion. You have no clue what makes a Sororitas a Sororitas. That's like saying you know what makes the force. Or how Vampires are invisible. It's a completely fictional made up thing that has never been clearly or adequately explained in sufficient detail. A SoB could have Metaclorians shoved up her nose for all you or I or anyone knows. She could have a "SUPER SECRET SPECIAL PRAYER" said over her that gives her the ability to do the special non-human stuff she does.
We know exactly what makes a Sororitas because it's been consistently explained for years. All they are is a warrior-cult dedicated to the God Emperor that wears Power Armour. They don't have genetic enhancements or special powers beyond faith which is an unquantifiable concept. There is no way to succinctly say what does or does not make a miracle because that is how faith operates.
Sororitas are superhuman in the same way Olympic Gold medallists are superhuman or the Royal Marines, they train and are equipped with the best gear. Take away the religious aspect and the Sisters are just a warrior order.
You keep making assertions and headcanon then treating it as fact without anything to back your claims.
No one here has the faintest clue aside from vague fluff rumors about what makes anything anything in the 40k universe. Astartes at least are clearly defined as KNOWING the emperor has Extra-ordinary powers that no other being in Humanity's history has ever had, but he is NOT a God. Only becuase it's clearly written that he told all the Primarchs he wasn't. And they passed it down.
Most Astartes don't believe the Emperor is a god because they are conditioned into doing so and even then individuals can still believe He is divine, such as the Unnumbered Son of Dorn, Racej Lucerne, who was training with the Ecclesiarchy when he was taken as an aspirant by Cawl for the Primaris Project. Aspirants aren't told any "truth" that the Emperor isn't actually a god, they're just pumped full of indoctrination and conditioning to make them believe something new.
Everyone in the Imperium knows the Emperor has extraordinary abilities and immense power, the majority just view that as a sign of divinity.
Remember when you were in school.
Looking around at your classmates when you were at school. Its no different.
That dudes playing some sort of football, that dudette is smart as a whip. That MF is gonna run a underhive gang.
Not sure what you mean. Most of my classmates were always going to end up in a deskjob with XYZ corporation. Randomly assign the rest in government or university deskjobs instead.
There’s a question within this question which having scanned the thread I don’t think has been raised….
At what age does the selection happen?
Because that’s a pretty….let’s say interesting….factor to consider.
If a given Schola has an influx of wee girls, let’s say no more than 3 years old? The Sororitas may see them as Prime Candidates. Old enough to have some vague sense of loss regarding their parents, but still young enough to instil uncritical faith in.
It’s not even ruled out that Astartes Chapters might find recruits that. Possibly as a matter of desperation as they have their own sources, but a possibility all the same.
The Commissarit in turn kind of wants recruits it can turn into its own brand of firebrand fanatics.
Likewise The Inquisition. Though each Inquisitor’s own flavour of firebrand fanatic is going to vary quite wildly.
The Scions? I think this thread has done them a disservice. They’re not necessarily the scraps as such. Just the candidates the other wings of The Imperium seeing as harder to properly mould.
If a given student of the Schola is older? Possibly different criteria in turn.
If they enter they enter the Schola early enough I could imagine the "primary school" years being teaching them basics (reading, writing, and arithmetic) and also finding where they best fit. They would also look at their past academic history, especially for older kids new to the Schola, to see what path they are to be placed.
It's 40k... I am sure it's a sorting skull fitted with a special machine spirit that analyses the brainwaves of the canditate and then shouts which job they will go and train for.
Bobthehero wrote: It's 40k... I am sure it's a sorting skull fitted with a special machine spirit that analyses the brainwaves of the canditate and then shouts which job they will go and train for.
Since it is 40K though, it does so via painfully aggressive nano-wires that drill through the skull to get to the chewy centre. And it shouts in an ancient, barely understood dialect from a now-dead (exterminatus’d) planet. And the vox-caster is glitchy, dropping every third or fourth syllable.
That genuinely sounds like more work than is necessary. Which in itself is somewhat 40K.
But a Toddler is typically a Blank Slate, ideal for raising into whatever you desire. I don’t want to present Real World examples because not touching that with a ten foot pole, and I’m sure you can conjure examples from your own imagination!
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I mean, for a better part of the Series, Gman is trying to gauge whether or not his Militant apostolic is a fanatic or a a deluded psychopath. It reminds me a lot of the scene in "Constantine" where Gabriel is talking to John Wick, and Neo says "he's met god, he knows he exists" and Gabriel replies the act of believing without knowledge or reason is faith." So therein lays the dilema. Are Astartes truly "faithful" if they KNOW the emperor exists and grants miracles, but yet is not an actual god? Are the Sisters truly faithful if they KNOW their "God" grants miracles and exists? This is why The Progenium exists I think in a way, to winnow out the faithful from just merely fanatic or just exceptionally skilled.
Astartes don't generally believe in miracles and do not worship the Emperor as a God. He was a warrior, a leader, and their creator but He was still just a man.
The Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy very much believe in miracles and the divinity of the Emperor because they are religious.
The Schola exists to turn the orphans of Imperial officers and families into tools for the Imperium. Most Schola "graduates" end up working for the Administratum and it's only the exceptional candidates that get selected for the Ordos, Militarum, Assassins or Sisterhood.
This also kinda lends to my belief that Sisters are Made, not found. The average human cannot do what a Sister does without some Deus Ex Machina. The Progenium does something to the SoB "aspirants(?)" to make them able to do what they do with regularity. Which would explain why some exceptionally fervant women get pushed onto other careers. They simply don't have the "it" factor for whatever the SoB Process does to a human. Sorta how SM are made. They have to be genetically capable of assimilating with the implants.
Sisters only get Power Armour plugs. That's it. They are just buff and extremely religious humans. There's no special mutation or secret implant that makes them special, they just really believe in their God and sometimes manifest Living Saints.
Miracles are impossible to prove as actual things and that's the point. A convent of Sisters holds their priory while a Cannoness banishes a Daemon with her Rosarius? That's a miracle. Doesn't matter if the symbols of the Emperor have power against Daemons because He is the Anathema to their kind, clearly, it was His divine will that gave the Cannoness her power.
You keep trying to quantify faith in material terms but by doing so completely miss the idea.
Good points and there was a recent story where the Tau captured a Sister and tried to understand her Faith which was along the same lines - it did not go well for them - also people forget that Living Saints are not restricted to the Sisterhood
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I mean, for a better part of the Series, Gman is trying to gauge whether or not his Militant apostolic is a fanatic or a a deluded psychopath. It reminds me a lot of the scene in "Constantine" where Gabriel is talking to John Wick, and Neo says "he's met god, he knows he exists" and Gabriel replies the act of believing without knowledge or reason is faith." So therein lays the dilema. Are Astartes truly "faithful" if they KNOW the emperor exists and grants miracles, but yet is not an actual god? Are the Sisters truly faithful if they KNOW their "God" grants miracles and exists? This is why The Progenium exists I think in a way, to winnow out the faithful from just merely fanatic or just exceptionally skilled.
Astartes don't generally believe in miracles and do not worship the Emperor as a God. He was a warrior, a leader, and their creator but He was still just a man.
The Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy very much believe in miracles and the divinity of the Emperor because they are religious.
The Schola exists to turn the orphans of Imperial officers and families into tools for the Imperium. Most Schola "graduates" end up working for the Administratum and it's only the exceptional candidates that get selected for the Ordos, Militarum, Assassins or Sisterhood.
This also kinda lends to my belief that Sisters are Made, not found. The average human cannot do what a Sister does without some Deus Ex Machina. The Progenium does something to the SoB "aspirants(?)" to make them able to do what they do with regularity. Which would explain why some exceptionally fervant women get pushed onto other careers. They simply don't have the "it" factor for whatever the SoB Process does to a human. Sorta how SM are made. They have to be genetically capable of assimilating with the implants.
Sisters only get Power Armour plugs. That's it. They are just buff and extremely religious humans. There's no special mutation or secret implant that makes them special, they just really believe in their God and sometimes manifest Living Saints.
Miracles are impossible to prove as actual things and that's the point. A convent of Sisters holds their priory while a Cannoness banishes a Daemon with her Rosarius? That's a miracle. Doesn't matter if the symbols of the Emperor have power against Daemons because He is the Anathema to their kind, clearly, it was His divine will that gave the Cannoness her power.
You keep trying to quantify faith in material terms but by doing so completely miss the idea.
Good points and there was a recent story where the Tau captured a Sister and tried to understand her Faith which was along the same lines - it did not go well for them - also people forget that Living Saints are not restricted to the Sisterhood
It is still the case, however, that some novitiates will not make it to full battle Sister due to rejecting the suit-interface implants we now know sisters use. This isn't going to be purely genetic (most immunological conditions appear to be acquired after birth), but it will happen occasionally.
We know rejecting bionics happens in 40k- there is a Guard commander in Gunheads who is essentially crippled due to rejecting his bionics, and basically spends the whole time in agonising pain.
Those that reject the implants probably get diverted into the non-militant roles if they survive.
There are other ways to wear power armour – not every suit needs implants – but they are less effective so I can see that happening for sure.
Also don’t forget that there are roles in the sisterhood that don’t need the deep and fervent faith the battle sisters espouse; the orders famulous are basically bene gesserit after all.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: There’s a question within this question which having scanned the thread I don’t think has been raised….
At what age does the selection happen?
Because that’s a pretty….let’s say interesting….factor to consider.
If a given Schola has an influx of wee girls, let’s say no more than 3 years old? The Sororitas may see them as Prime Candidates. Old enough to have some vague sense of loss regarding their parents, but still young enough to instil uncritical faith in.
It’s not even ruled out that Astartes Chapters might find recruits that. Possibly as a matter of desperation as they have their own sources, but a possibility all the same.
The Commissarit in turn kind of wants recruits it can turn into its own brand of firebrand fanatics.
Likewise The Inquisition. Though each Inquisitor’s own flavour of firebrand fanatic is going to vary quite wildly.
The Scions? I think this thread has done them a disservice. They’re not necessarily the scraps as such. Just the candidates the other wings of The Imperium seeing as harder to properly mould.
If a given student of the Schola is older? Possibly different criteria in turn.
The Schola is run by the Ecclesiarchy (with certain faculty being assigned from "graduate" roles such as Gaunt's Commissar headmaster) so regardless of the final role a Schola graduate finds themselves in, they're going to be more dedicated to the Emperor than a bog standard citizen. The students still need to learn basic skills in order to function in the roles the Schola will place them in and it roughly seems that it's the teenage years where they specialise in "departments".
As for Astartes, the students at the Schola have been "programmed" in a way that isn't beneficial to a Chapter in most cases. They're too religious and too aligned with the Imperial power structure to be of much use. Hive Gangers, barbarian tribesmen or even those from the Ultramar training academies are going to be easier to indoctrinate into the ways of the Chapter than someone who has spent their entire childhood sticking to a very rigid structure.
It seems incredibly bad fore-thinking to put the Sisters initiates into the same training ground as the Commissars, and the Scions. Like, Cain goes into the injuries and deaths that happen in inter-school rivalries, where the Sisters beat everyone else to a pulp. Isn't that wasting of potential, to sacrifice Scion and Commissar stock to violent scrums with the Sisters? Surely they should be kept entirely separate...
Also, Cain describes them (sisters) as 6' well muscled women, around the age of 13-15, so where are all these women coming from? That's well beyond the average height for even a male of that age. Are Sisters given growth hormones or genetic therapy from birth/young ages?
You do remember Cain is a massive liar right? If he's getting beat up by girls of course they're going to be 6' tall Amazons who just so happen to be 13-15.
I'm not suggesting that there aren't any that don't fit that description but using the book series that is told from the accounts of a notorious liar as hard evidence is a bit silly.
Quite possibly growth hormones and adaptive surgery. It’s another one of those things where if the background doesn’t explicitly exclude it, it remains a possibility.
Yes but it's best not to enter the realm of "if it's not explicit it might be true" because then we get some really dumb and/or disturbing things popping up.
I'm not sure we can. The Imperium isn't adverse to a little genetic tinkering, we've seen that but the Sororitas pride themselves on their purity of body and spirit. If they're using chems to make their recruits bigger and tougher does that not fly in the face of that purity? A Sister should be strong by the grace of the God-Emperor and there is no shame in serving in a non-combat role within the Sisterhood if a recruit doesn't meet the physical parameters. With the millions of Schola prospects plus any local additions, genetic modification seems a moot point. Physical attributes come secondary to religious zeal after all.
Plus, it's the Cain books.
Well, hypocrisy does tend to go hand in hand with religious extremism.
Simply bill it as Purification, because these are sanctified and we asked the emperor and he totally said it was ok now get it down you there’s a good Lass.
Again though, the source is the Cain books and it's Cain saying he got beaten up by girls as a child.
AFAIK there's nothing to suggest that Sororitas practice genetic manipulation.
Yeah, serves me right for believing anything Cain says. I guess it was just bad head cannon that Sisters of Battle/silence were just "superior" humans.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, serves me right for believing anything Cain says. I guess it was just bad head cannon that Sisters of Battle/silence were just "superior" humans.
Well, I mean, they are, but in the sense Olympic athletes are “superior” at running and jumping and stick-throwing and whatnot. That is, while they might have marginally higher base stats, they also pack on a lot more dedicated training and health management. Also they’re almost universally born of privileged individuals, so they don’t/won’t have to contend with malnutrition or most childhood diseases. Or runoff from the stimm-factory upstream filling the river with turbo-pike.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, serves me right for believing anything Cain says. I guess it was just bad head cannon that Sisters of Battle/silence were just "superior" humans.
Well, I mean, they are, but in the sense Olympic athletes are “superior” at running and jumping and stick-throwing and whatnot. That is, while they might have marginally higher base stats, they also pack on a lot more dedicated training and health management. Also they’re almost universally born of privileged individuals, so they don’t/won’t have to contend with malnutrition or most childhood diseases. Or runoff from the stimm-factory upstream filling the river with turbo-pike.
I keep wanting to say, but if 95% of humanity is genetically unable to be what it takes, where are they finding all these "perfect specimens of Olympic prowess"? Like, I could understand if they were into Gene modification, or gene therapy, but they aren't. They are stock standard humans. Which begs the question, what could the best of the best of humanity do with Power Armor? Sly Marbo in Powered Armor. Getting Avatar flashbacks here....
There probably isn't a specific age because students won't be coming in at consistent ages. The Schola is primarily for orphans but also takes in students who are sent there by their very much alive parents. It stands to reason that the Schola has everything from newborns up to young adults. They could take in new recruits at literally any age.
Students are going to be under constant monitoring (It is a grimdark totalitarian state) so a decision about the path a student should take could be made at any time, or I suppose even changed if needed.
I imagine that students who come before the age of 10-12 would be more easily slotted into a class structure. Students that come in at older ages would be a little tougher. They'd probably undergo some aptitude tests to see what education they have already had, what their personalities are, etc... Then they get put in whatever remedial courses are deemed necessary to bring them up to their age bracket.
So you've probably got classes that have mostly the same aged kids who have been in the Schola most of their lives mixed with a few older kids who were orphaned at an older age and are 'behind' the other children. You after all can't put a 16 year old illiterate child of some petty officer in with children who have been taught to read since they were 5-7. You put him in the younger groups so he can learn the more basic stuff first, and he can bring what little experience from just being older to the younger children as well.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, serves me right for believing anything Cain says. I guess it was just bad head cannon that Sisters of Battle/silence were just "superior" humans.
Well, I mean, they are, but in the sense Olympic athletes are “superior” at running and jumping and stick-throwing and whatnot. That is, while they might have marginally higher base stats, they also pack on a lot more dedicated training and health management. Also they’re almost universally born of privileged individuals, so they don’t/won’t have to contend with malnutrition or most childhood diseases. Or runoff from the stimm-factory upstream filling the river with turbo-pike.
I keep wanting to say, but if 95% of humanity is genetically unable to be what it takes, where are they finding all these "perfect specimens of Olympic prowess"? Like, I could understand if they were into Gene modification, or gene therapy, but they aren't. They are stock standard humans. Which begs the question, what could the best of the best of humanity do with Power Armor? Sly Marbo in Powered Armor. Getting Avatar flashbacks here....
Its prolly closer to 99% that cant. But admin needs its serfs, book keepers and rat sellers or any other jerb required for society to function. Maybe Sly and the best, didnt have the xxx gene.
But when the population is uncountable. Youll luck out.
The same place olympians turn up. They love doing it. Whether its running all day or swimming all day. Some are better than others.
When you have uncounted trillions of people to comb through, requiring that 1 in a million recruit still means you have tens of thousands of people available.
The "Trillions of humans" thing is a silly meme that needs to go away. First off: it's billions accross the ENTIRE GALAXY. Not even the Eccliesiarchy goes searching across the entire galaxy for supplicants. It's more, "we have a Schola on this planet, and we're searching through the planet and it's surrounding moons." So, maybe a billion people. No one is combing anything past the scar either. So that half of the galaxy is out.
Trying to apply logical math to this gak show of narrative lore is exhausting.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The "Trillions of humans" thing is a silly meme that needs to go away. First off: it's billions accross the ENTIRE GALAXY.
Trillions aren't that many considering how rapidly humanity tends to replicate in the Imperium. With 100-400 billion stars in the Milky Way, most of which will have planetary bodies, it would only take 100 planets with a population similar to that of modern-day earth to just about reach 1 trillion humans, and considering Hive Worlds cramp a lot of people into a lot of space and that the Imperium covers most of the galaxy, it's not a difficult number to reach. I mean there are 2.2 billion children (roughly) on Earth right now.
Not even the Eccliesiarchy goes searching across the entire galaxy for supplicants. It's more, "we have a Schola on this planet, and we're searching through the planet and it's surrounding moons." So, maybe a billion people.
Schola are everywhere. They're like boarding schools and orphans from all over the place get sent there. When your empire is in a constant state of warfare and a lot of planets encourage legacy building, that's a lot of orphans.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The "Trillions of humans" thing is a silly meme that needs to go away. First off: it's billions accross the ENTIRE GALAXY.
No, its not. Trillions is completely logical just looking at our own planet's population and thinking about what a galactic scale civilization with ~1 million planets would have.
Lets say even 1% of the Imperium are Hive worlds with ten times the current population of Earth. Earth has a pop of 7.7 billion. So if we say Hive worlds have an average population of 77 billion(a low estimate IMO), times 10 thousand(1% of a million) we would get 770 trillion on Hive worlds alone. Then we'd have planets with roughly similar populations to Earth and less making up the bulk. This of course doesn't count any worlds that are Ecumenopoli like Terra which would have hundreds of billions of people.
Realistically, the human population of the Imperium is likely in the low quadrillions. "Countless Trillions" is a perfectly reasonable assessment, and indeed a safe lowball.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: The "Trillions of humans" thing is a silly meme that needs to go away. First off: it's billions accross the ENTIRE GALAXY.
No, its not. Trillions is completely logical just looking at our own planet's population and thinking about what a galactic scale civilization with ~1 million planets would have.
Lets say even 1% of the Imperium are Hive worlds with ten times the current population of Earth. Earth has a pop of 7.7 billion. So if we say Hive worlds have an average population of 77 billion(a low estimate IMO), times 10 thousand(1% of a million) we would get 770 trillion on Hive worlds alone. Then we'd have planets with roughly similar populations to Earth and less making up the bulk. This of course doesn't count any worlds that are Ecumenopoli like Terra which would have hundreds of billions of people.
Realistically, the human population of the Imperium is likely in the low quadrillions. "Countless Trillions" is a perfectly reasonable assessment, and indeed a safe lowball.
Yes, countless trillions is definitely the case, and possibly countless quadrillions to be honest.
This is from the 5th edition rulebook:
So, before the Great Rift, we know that a single hive world has ~150 billion people on it. We also know there are approximately 32,000 hive worlds within the Imperium. It doesn't take much maths to work out that is a lot of people, and that is ignoring the other 970,000 worlds of the Imperium.
Terra alone is mentioned as having a population of around 1 quadrillion in the Throne series, IIRC. Necromunda also likely has a population in the high billions or low trillions.
The population has probably dropped somewhat following the Great Rift and associated destruction, but will be in the same ballpark.
The Imperium of Mankind has a truly vast population.
You also need to remember that the Imperium does not care about the environments of individual planets. They are willing to fully utilize the resources of every planet to the fullest.
If we dedicated all of Earth's arable land to farming, and farmed using hydroponics and aquaculture in areas that weren't, and packed the excess population into massive hive cities built on non-arable/grazing land the Earth could sustainably feed hundreds of trillions of people. A lot of it would be pretty boring as far as food goes, but food is food. The poor can live on algae and shrimp based nutrient paste. The middle classes can eat basic crops and cheap meat. The rich can eat the finer things.
This would of course obliterate the natural ecosystem of any planet used for such industrial farming, but that isn't a concern.
Earth also kinda sucks in terms of what % of its surface is arable land. Only roughly 30% of Earth is arable land, and of that only 11% is actually used currently. If you had a world with more arable land you could get even more crop yields.
Imagine a world that was only 40% covered by oceans. The water that does exist is constantly pumped onto fields spanning entire continents. Water that leaves in the food exports is replaced with water harvested from comets or in organic waste shipped here from hive worlds and used as fertilizer. It's all monitored and kept in balance to ensure the soil remains productive. Fields are allowed to fallow in massive rotations.
Feeding these many quadrillions would be a monumental, but definitely doable, task.
Grey Templar wrote: You also need to remember that the Imperium does not care about the environments of individual planets. They are willing to fully utilize the resources of every planet to the fullest.
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This would of course obliterate the natural ecosystem of any planet used for such industrial farming, but that isn't a concern.
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Feeding these many quadrillions would be a monumental, but definitely doable, task.
Heh. In the Imperium, PETA would have been purged as a heretical cult; clearly out to sabotage humanity’s survival.
Anyway, on the actual topic of the thread; don’t forget that some or all of the really truly exceptional one-in-a-billion physical specimens at the schola will have “unfortunate training accidents” and after their closed casket funerals will wake up in one of the Assassin Temples, where the hard work will really begin.
