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How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 14:01:31


Post by: leerm02



Greetings everyone,

I was reading some of the other threads and thinking about how absurd it has gotten that codexes are like $60 a pop in the US. I'm a million years old, and so I can still remember the days of the 3rd edition codexes that were... like $25 I think? I guess I can't remember the exact price, but I do recall that they were cheap enough that I regularly bought new codexes just to read the lore, rules, and get some of the flavor of whatever faction had just come out. Like a lot of you, I also rather enjoyed the artwork, style, and general feeling of the 41st millennium and wanted to get more of it.

Fast forward to today.

I'm actually not sure I'm going to buy any more codexes... ever. I'm actually quite conflicted about this, as I still enjoy the setting, the models, the game experience and all that stuff. I guess I'm not saying I have any intention of not PLAYING 40k... just not of spending $60 for rules I can easily get elsewhere, lore I can easily get elsewhere, and art that is... actually, I still like the art for the most part. I guess my point is that, even though I do tend to enjoy my physical codexes, and sometimes like to do silly things like relax on the couch and just find little bits of lore or description that I didn't notice before, I just don't think that I enjoy them $60 worth.

What about you? How much do you enjoy your physical codexes? Would a lower price point make you buy more of them?

One of the things that also has to be acknowledged here is that the old 3rd edition codexes were tiny compared to today's massive tomes, and every editions codexes have been different in this regard. Is that a factor? What do you think? How much value does a physical codex have to you?



How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 14:11:22


Post by: Overread


So I recall when codex in the UK were closer to £12 a book. However I also have them on the shelf and I know that they were:

1) Black and White for the majority of the book, with a colour cover and colour painted section in the middle

2) Had only a small/modest amount of lore

3) Were considerably shorter

4) Were softbacks not hardback


Today the codex is £32, but they are also

1) Full colour

2) Considerably longer in both rules and lore

3) Are now hardback.


So as I see it we've gained more than double content, full colour and hardback. To me that honestly makes the difference in price more justifiable. Not fully, I'd still say that £25 would be a more sweet spot for the price of a codex, perhaps £28 or so.

I'd also say that the latest codex are a disappointment because GW has cut the unit profile lore pages, which I miss as I did love that each unit/type would get at least a page of lore and perhaps another of art showing off and elaborating upon what they were and how they worked and such.




I do agree GW is sometimes updating stuff too swiftly. Daughters of Khaine hardly got a new book before getting another and without a big addition of models, which is often justifiable if GW has added a good 4-6 (at least) new kits which might add even more profiles to the game (duel kits and such). So I'm very much with you that faster cycling of the books can devalue them quickly.




At the same time I don't think we'll ever see the codex/battletome vanish. They are not just a useful resource for games and also fantastic for marketing. I bet many of us have fond memories (and even look forward too) getting a new book and, if nothing else was bought at the store, you walk away with a book chock full of lore, art, painting, models and more. That's a big bundle of marketing and temptation to draw people in and keep them in the hobby.

An app might be able to functionally replace that; and a website too. But both of those are "go away and look at this when you get home" Which runs the very real risk that someone new just forgets or doesn't bother. Meanwhile an app on a phone is nothing like a book in the hand to reference or flick through.




Heck I keep casually looking out for a 2nd edition Tyranid Codex just so that I've got the full set.



PS - I think GW's policy of limited edition ones is almost insane considering that they are generally double the price for a slightly different cover and a ribbon bookmark. At the same time at least it means if you don't get them you really don't miss out on anything. So there's that to be thankful of, but I am sometimes surprised how fast those collectors editions sell out considering that, content wise, they really don't offer you good value for money at all.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 14:23:06


Post by: Insectum7


There may have been less lore in prior paperback/b+w codexes, but I'll say the lore was better. Heck the rules and units were better in many cases. Codexes have inflated their page count but not the quality is not there, certainly not for the price.

I am also unsure whether I'll buy another codex. I have a healty sized Tyranid army, and despite the new book being near-universally praised, I think I'm just going to do without the book, and get my rules from different sources.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 14:28:07


Post by: tauist


Physical codexes mean nothing to me. I much prefer having all rulebooks and codexes etc on my iPad, with full bookmarks, search and split screening. Easier to handle and weights less than a single big book.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 14:31:44


Post by: G00fySmiley


I buy codexes and honestly probably will keep doing so for the art lore and access to the old rules should the need for comparison or reflection arise. That said I have the income and the space for them. When I was a younger smiley I did not have this luxury but still bought the old codexes on ebay when new ones came out to have the lore and art. Probably more in the nerdy lore part of the hobby always listening to 40k audiobooks while painting or working.

I will say if I were not already invested in the hobby and looked at current prices it would be difficult for me to justify jumping in to it with my income from the late 90's early 00's (US wages have not changed much since then and i was already well above the minimum wage at the time, and today for that matter) .

additional note I do not carry any of my books to the gamestore, I carry a tablet because aint nobody go time for lugging 20 lb of tree pulp or anything beyond the miniature case with an android tablet tucked in


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 14:36:50


Post by: Hankovitch


Full color printing, hardback bindings, and large formats are not a "value add" for a book whose contents will be outdated within months, and replaced within a few years. We are being sold magazines dressed up as coffee table books.

Physical media could still be a useful way to deliver rules and updates, but hardback books are the most wasteful and expensive way to do it.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 14:57:40


Post by: PenitentJake


I like physical dexes a lot- I refuse to by an e-reader because it is a machine that is designed to do just one thing, which can also be done by a computer that has the benefit of being able to do 1001 other things BESIDES functioning as an e-reader.

I have found that when GW digital products did exist, they were terrible (at least on computers); the design that you MUST see the whole page on the screen made the text too small to read.

Current dexes? I love some things about them, but dislike other things; they don't have maps anymore to show you the distribution of the faction's forces across the galaxy, and the quantity of unit specific lore has dropped as well. At the same time, they've added Crusade content, and they have fleshed out the rules for subfactions in even more detail than 8th.

I don't use the app, or any phone/ tablet based method of list building, but I do think that the system of giving us a code for a living digital edition when we buy the dex is an interesting idea with a lot of potential... But from what I've heard, the execution is so bad that all of that potential is essentially wasted.

One thing I do know is that I never want GW to go 100% digital only. I personally believe that any company which chooses to do so is creating potential barriers for a segment of the population- be they barriers of money, accessibility, or technical ability.

I work with a lot of folks who live in rural areas where internet service is spotty at best, people who have a profound lack of digital literacy and people who cope with poverty and physical disabilities, so my perspective tends to differ from that of young urban individuals who live on their phones.

Granted, many of the clients I work with would not be interested in 40k at all, but my connection to these folks keeps me ever mindful of the need for universally designed products and services.

GW absolutely SHOULD make a full suite of living, digital texts available for those who want and need them. GW should ALSO continue to produce paper based resources for those who prefer them, despite their many flaws. GW should also make it so that neither product line relies on the others. That's what universal design is all about.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 15:00:53


Post by: The_Real_Chris


I used to love them. Inspirational modelling and conversion ideas to fill roles without models, rules, background.

Now conversions are frowned on as being dangerous threats to 'no model no rules', I know enough of the background and it seems to change often making me less inclined to want to learn it, painting ideas are all over the web and the rules seem to be poorly tested, changed every few months or invalidated.

A service like Wahpedia is currently enough for me, combined with seeing what others are doing with their armies.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 15:09:43


Post by: Dai


The_Real_Chris wrote:
I used to love them. Inspirational modelling and conversion ideas to fill roles without models, rules, background.

Now conversions are frowned on as being dangerous threats to 'no model no rules', I know enough of the background and it seems to change often making me less inclined to want to learn it, painting ideas are all over the web and the rules seem to be poorly tested, changed every few months or invalidated.

A service like Wahpedia is currently enough for me, combined with seeing what others are doing with their armies.


Im a physical book boy but it is mad that Games Workshop must surely have seen the simple but effective and easy to navigate wahapedia site and gone ahead with app system they have. I am positive that if they had such a good service people would be more than willing to pay for it.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 15:16:07


Post by: Mr Morden


I prefer a physical book for a number of reasons:

1. Its easier to find and discuss rules - messing about with the rules on a tiny screen that one can really see is a nightmare - especially if you are trying to clarify something.

2. I like books

That being said I am not playing much at the moment and although I have the money - room is more of an issue.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 15:18:42


Post by: dorath


Warhammer for me is an analog escape from the digital world. Enough of my time is spent staring at screens for work and whatnot that I just need something else.

This obviously isn't the case for everyone. There should 100% be electronic versions, but they shouldn't be the only version.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 15:29:31


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Mr Morden wrote:
I prefer a physical book for a number of reasons:

1. Its easier to find and discuss rules

This is 100% false with the ability to search out words.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote:

One thing I do know is that I never want GW to go 100% digital only. I personally believe that any company which chooses to do so is creating potential barriers for a segment of the population- be they barriers of money, accessibility, or technical ability.

I work with a lot of folks who live in rural areas where internet service is spotty at best, people who have a profound lack of digital literacy and people who cope with poverty and physical disabilities, so my perspective tends to differ from that of young urban individuals who live on their phones.

Granted, many of the clients I work with would not be interested in 40k at all, but my connection to these folks keeps me ever mindful of the need for universally designed products and services.

So some old ass boomers that won't play 40k to begin with are your argument compared to the actual demographic where most people have smart phones of some kind to begin with?


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 15:40:11


Post by: Karol


Can't play at the store without a printed version of army rules. So the codex is a crucial as having an army.


So some old ass boomers that won't play 40k to begin with are your argument compared to the actual demographic where most people have smart phones of some kind to begin with?

When I bought my army, I made a councious choice to pick instead of buying someting else. my sister with her confirmation money bought a tablet. If rules were only digital, I wouldn't be able to play, because I have no internet on my phone and it ain't a smart phone either.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 15:41:45


Post by: Backspacehacker


Depends, if its an army i play in passing, not much, if its something im super into, priceless

For example. Knights, tsons, gotta have it gotta need it.
Slaves, tzeetzch, guard, i can do with out it.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 15:44:41


Post by: Hankovitch


EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
I prefer a physical book for a number of reasons:

1. Its easier to find and discuss rules

This is 100% false with the ability to search out words.



Even better, you have Certain Sources where rules are actually tagged with unit/faction/formation keywords, and as a result you can do things like having a list of usable stratagems appended to the bottom of a unit's entry. If I look up Neophyte Hybrids, I'm presented with a summary of all available stratagems that can be used with them. And they can be further filtered by subfaction.

The current physical dexes make it easy to forget that some stratagems exist, or misremember their rules (which are likely to be incorrect/outdated in your physical book anyway). Never mind the nightmare of having to mentally index the contents of 1-3 additional publications just to play a single monofaction army.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 15:48:21


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Karol wrote:

When I bought my army, I made a councious choice to pick instead of buying someting else. my sister with her confirmation money bought a tablet. If rules were only digital, I wouldn't be able to play, because I have no internet on my phone and it ain't a smart phone either.


you can print out your rules from digital.

Personally i'd go for :

Digital rules
Physical special editions with rules + fluff


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hankovitch wrote:


Even better, you have Certain Sources where rules are actually tagged with unit/faction/formation keywords, and as a result you can do things like having a list of usable stratagems appended to the bottom of a unit's entry. If I look up Neophyte Hybrids, I'm presented with a summary of all available stratagems that can be used with them. And they can be further filtered by subfaction.

The current physical dexes make it easy to forget that some stratagems exist, or misremember their rules (which are likely to be incorrect/outdated in your physical book anyway). Never mind the nightmare of having to mentally index the contents of 1-3 additional publications just to play a single monofaction army.



Yeah, going back to physical codexes after using Wahapedia is so annoying. The layout in the codexes is so trash.

Take the Thousand Sons codex for example :

40 pages of fluff thats been copypasted
Combat Patrol ad
Secondaries
Detachment abilities
Cults
Strats (with a try at making it organized with color coded gak)
Warlord Traits
Infernal pacts
Relics
Psychic
CRUSADE
name generator (kek)
CRUSADE ARMY AD
Datasheet abilities
Cabalistic rituals
Datasheets
Points Values
Weapons profile


It's so all over the place.

Why are pacts between WLT and Relics
Why is crusade in the middle of matched play stuff
Why are cabalistic rituals and datasheet abilities not on the detachment abilities section
why are pts values and weapons profile their own section in the end

It *could* be simple but GW doesnt seem to want to. Wahapedia having the strats related to the units right under their datasheet AND having all weapons options' full stat right on the datasheet is sooo much better



How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 15:57:43


Post by: Aelyn


Personally? I like the feel of a physical book, and I enjoy reading the background bits, looking at the galleries etc. What I don't enjoy so much is having to lug round multiple hardback books to use them in-game.

If I could dictate how GW distributed rules, I would have four primary ways:

- Free downloadable PDFs. These would be bare-bones files, with minimal formatting, no images etc, but containing all of the information necessary from a game perspective. This is focused on people wanting the crunch for playtesting or listwriting.

- An app with a reasonable navigation interface (links to key terms / associated rule areas etc) and regularly updated to ensure it's fully up to date. Think the current app, but a bit more user-friendly. This could have a small subscription fee attached - think around £1.99 / $2.99 per month, which gives access to everything. This is intended as a quick and easy reference for people to use if they want to browse concepts, to be used mid-game to look up opponent's rules, etc.

- Easy-to-transport physical rulebooks. These would be A5 sized and include all the info you need to play, as well as a little bit of background. These would be available for the rulebooks and for each Codex, with the codices also including data cards. This is intended to be the primary gaming aid, with portability and lack of technical requirements being the primary concern. Ideally this would aim for the £5-10 / $12-15 range, and could be black and white if necessary to reduce costs.

- Full-size hardback rulebooks and codices, just like the current versions, and at the current price point. The design goal here is that they are primarily for reading at home, and these are the ones which have full colour, fluff, hobby sections etc. They could well come packaged with the slimline version for convenience - that would need some market research to figure out the best approach.

Both of the physical versions would be labeled with an explicit print date and a note pointing you to the online versions for up to date rules. The slimline versions would also ideally be reprinted annually with up to date rules for people who want them for tournaments etc.

I'd also strongly support slimming down the amount of rules in codices and simplifying how it's presented, but that feels to me like it's beyond the scope of this thread...


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 15:59:33


Post by: Karol


 VladimirHerzog wrote:

you can print out your rules from digital.

Personally i'd go for :

Digital rules
Physical special editions with rules + fluff

True. And as soon as I get myself a flat to play w40k and AoS in, I could ditch the use of printed material as a whole.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 16:13:44


Post by: Mr Morden


EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
I prefer a physical book for a number of reasons:

1. Its easier to find and discuss rules

This is 100% false with the ability to search out words.



This is a100% true in my experience - ages spent squinting at a screen as someone tries to find their specific rule and fails. and when the rule is found - easier for everyone to look at a large printed page rather than all try to read a tiny screen - esp when they keep flipping the phone around. Its extremely annoying.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 16:17:20


Post by: PenitentJake


The_Real_Chris wrote:


Now conversions are frowned on as being dangerous threats to 'no model no rules', I know enough of the background and it seems to change often making me less inclined to want to learn it, painting ideas are all over the web and the rules seem to be poorly tested, changed every few months or invalidated.



While conversions are no longer featured in Codices, and while WD articles seldom give you a step by step guide on how to make the conversions, it is not true that GW officially frowns on conversions. I have issue 476 of WD sitting in front of me right now; it includes conversions for a Dark Mechinicum priest kitbashed from the Venomcrawler and Manipulus kits, a Baneblade fitted with an exorcist launcher, a unit of corrupted SoB, a Feudal Guard unit kit bashed from Cawdor/ Cadian/ Krieg models, a unit of Guard Beastmen Conscripts, and a Holy Knight with a church on its back (from the Sigmarite mausoleum).

The GK Grand Master in NDK was the last conversion that we got a walkthrough to create- this is in fact a unit entry without a model, and GW not only encouraged people to build their own but actually showed them how.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

So some old ass boomers that won't play 40k to begin with are your argument compared to the actual demographic where most people have smart phones of some kind to begin with?


Well, my standard, diplomatic response would be to explain to you what universal design is and how most modern businesses either embrace completely or at least aspire to, I'm not going to do that. Brother Karol's response certainly puts your argument on its head anyway, as he explained HIS accessibility issues, and if you know Karol, you can't get much further from a boomer.

For my part, your use of "old ass boomers" takes away my desire to behave in a diplomatic manner.

[Snip]

I couldn't do it. I had originally written an ill tempered rant, but within a minute, hit the edit button because I decided to be the bigger man. Stooping to personal insults, even in response to them certainly isn't going to move the discussion forward, and there are other people on this site whose opinions I care enough about that I don't want them to see the worst in me.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 16:23:37


Post by: ccs


How valuable is a physical codex to me?

1) I can afford whatever I like hobby wise. That doesn't mean I don't find the current price tag of codexes ridiculous.
So retail minus the considerable discount I get from my local shop.
And I only buy a codex/battle tome for forces that I'm actually playing atm.

2) The current method of changing pts/rules once a codex drops has greatly eroded the physical books value within the current edition.

3) the real value won't be realized until the edition ends & the apps/waghpedia etc no longer support a previous edition.
Stuff is certainly out there in digital form, but it's still faster just to walk to my bookshelf when we want to play edition x....


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 16:35:34


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Mr Morden wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
I prefer a physical book for a number of reasons:

1. Its easier to find and discuss rules

This is 100% false with the ability to search out words.



This is a100% true in my experience - ages spent squinting at a screen as someone tries to find their specific rule and fails. and when the rule is found - easier for everyone to look at a large printed page rather than all try to read a tiny screen - esp when they keep flipping the phone around. Its extremely annoying.

You're still describing not searching out words. That alone makes it 100% quicker.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 16:39:49


Post by: Overread


I think we should note that searching in books is pretty quick, BUT its hindered by GW often being spotty with if they do or don't include an index at the back and the way they lay out information right now. For a good few years they had avery sensible way to lay out unit information.

Today its better than it has been recently, but its still very messy. Heck they don't even put points on the unit profile (they do put power levels though); the points are on a separate page.

The same is true of several other bits of regularly needed information. Yes collected references and tables ARE good, but sometimes its good to repeat information in the same publication so that you've both got your summary table and your key information right where the reader needs it.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 16:47:48


Post by: Mr Morden


EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
I prefer a physical book for a number of reasons:

1. Its easier to find and discuss rules

This is 100% false with the ability to search out words.



This is a100% true in my experience - ages spent squinting at a screen as someone tries to find their specific rule and fails. and when the rule is found - easier for everyone to look at a large printed page rather than all try to read a tiny screen - esp when they keep flipping the phone around. Its extremely annoying.

You're still describing not searching out words. That alone makes it 100% quicker.

And you are ignoring the discusson / consulation aspect of the rules which is the whole pouint of finding the rule - its lots easier (IMO) checking a page with several people than someones phone

Now Agreed GW does not make it easy to find the relevant rules in any manner.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 16:53:44


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Mr Morden wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
I prefer a physical book for a number of reasons:

1. Its easier to find and discuss rules

This is 100% false with the ability to search out words.



This is a100% true in my experience - ages spent squinting at a screen as someone tries to find their specific rule and fails. and when the rule is found - easier for everyone to look at a large printed page rather than all try to read a tiny screen - esp when they keep flipping the phone around. Its extremely annoying.

You're still describing not searching out words. That alone makes it 100% quicker.

And you are ignoring the discusson / consulation aspect of the rules which is the whole pouint of finding the rule - its lots easier (IMO) checking a page with several people than someones phone

Now Agreed GW does not make it easy to find the relevant rules in any manner.

Maybe if y'all are reading at a 3rd grade level. Reading the searched reference does NOT take long, sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PenitentJake wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:


Now conversions are frowned on as being dangerous threats to 'no model no rules', I know enough of the background and it seems to change often making me less inclined to want to learn it, painting ideas are all over the web and the rules seem to be poorly tested, changed every few months or invalidated.



While conversions are no longer featured in Codices, and while WD articles seldom give you a step by step guide on how to make the conversions, it is not true that GW officially frowns on conversions. I have issue 476 of WD sitting in front of me right now; it includes conversions for a Dark Mechinicum priest kitbashed from the Venomcrawler and Manipulus kits, a Baneblade fitted with an exorcist launcher, a unit of corrupted SoB, a Feudal Guard unit kit bashed from Cawdor/ Cadian/ Krieg models, a unit of Guard Beastmen Conscripts, and a Holy Knight with a church on its back (from the Sigmarite mausoleum).

The GK Grand Master in NDK was the last conversion that we got a walkthrough to create- this is in fact a unit entry without a model, and GW not only encouraged people to build their own but actually showed them how.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

So some old ass boomers that won't play 40k to begin with are your argument compared to the actual demographic where most people have smart phones of some kind to begin with?


Well, my standard, diplomatic response would be to explain to you what universal design is and how most modern businesses either embrace completely or at least aspire to, I'm not going to do that. Brother Karol's response certainly puts your argument on its head anyway, as he explained HIS accessibility issues, and if you know Karol, you can't get much further from a boomer.

For my part, your use of "old ass boomers" takes away my desire to behave in a diplomatic manner.

[Snip]

I couldn't do it. I had originally written an ill tempered rant, but within a minute, hit the edit button because I decided to be the bigger man. Stooping to personal insults, even in response to them certainly isn't going to move the discussion forward, and there are other people on this site whose opinions I care enough about that I don't want them to see the worst in me.

Karol has no point because Karol was sold on a bad army to begin with. As well a smart phone/tablet would've been a better purchase to begin with for research or job applications. It relies on having zero smart technology and zero internet at both home and in the store. I've done volunteer work with the homeless and even they were able to procure smart phones so that they could apply for low income housing and jobs.

So no there's just not an excuse. You wanna print everything? Fine, whatever. Codices printed by GW have zero value though and should not be a focus.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 17:18:55


Post by: Mr Morden


EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
I prefer a physical book for a number of reasons:

1. Its easier to find and discuss rules

This is 100% false with the ability to search out words.



This is a100% true in my experience - ages spent squinting at a screen as someone tries to find their specific rule and fails. and when the rule is found - easier for everyone to look at a large printed page rather than all try to read a tiny screen - esp when they keep flipping the phone around. Its extremely annoying.

You're still describing not searching out words. That alone makes it 100% quicker.

And you are ignoring the discusson / consulation aspect of the rules which is the whole pouint of finding the rule - its lots easier (IMO) checking a page with several people than someones phone

Now Agreed GW does not make it easy to find the relevant rules in any manner.

Maybe if y'all are reading at a 3rd grade level. Reading the searched reference does NOT take long, sorry.

Phone Screens are way smaller than pages - FACT. And often scratched and battered

Apparently you need to learn to read yourself so given that you have ignored the whole point of what I said but whatever.



How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 17:24:20


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


If the German Version was available as a digital copy I'd probably not buy a physical Codex anymore since the fluff pages mostly are the same since at least 4th edition. Unfortunately german Codizes don't seem to have demand in russia .


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 17:57:53


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Mr Morden wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
I prefer a physical book for a number of reasons:

1. Its easier to find and discuss rules

This is 100% false with the ability to search out words.



This is a100% true in my experience - ages spent squinting at a screen as someone tries to find their specific rule and fails. and when the rule is found - easier for everyone to look at a large printed page rather than all try to read a tiny screen - esp when they keep flipping the phone around. Its extremely annoying.

You're still describing not searching out words. That alone makes it 100% quicker.

And you are ignoring the discusson / consulation aspect of the rules which is the whole pouint of finding the rule - its lots easier (IMO) checking a page with several people than someones phone

Now Agreed GW does not make it easy to find the relevant rules in any manner.

Maybe if y'all are reading at a 3rd grade level. Reading the searched reference does NOT take long, sorry.

Phone Screens are way smaller than pages - FACT. And often scratched and battered

Apparently you need to learn to read yourself so given that you have ignored the whole point of what I said but whatever.


If all y'all have scratched and cracked screens I fear for the condition of your codices to begin with.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 18:09:14


Post by: Racerguy180


Well I generally carry my phone with me when I go anywhere, can't say the same for a codex....

But my screen isn't fethed up.

I'll echo the whole 40k is an escape from the digital mindset.

Generally I don't buy the codex since it'll be invalid anywhere between day one and 3mo.
I'll gladly pay GW for what their rules are worth, unfortunately lately their rules are worth 0, so that's what I do.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 18:21:58


Post by: Nevelon


EviscerationPlague wrote:

If all y'all have scratched and cracked screens I fear for the condition of your codices to begin with.


Hush and make some armor saves at AP minus <coffee stain>

For a book I’m less familiar with, search features are nice via digital codexs. But for a book I know well, I can flip to the right spot and get the relevent details quicker then navigating an app.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 18:24:44


Post by: warhead01


I prefer hard copy andI prefer older style codex 3rd -5th, where it wasn't jammed full of pictures of GW's painted models but had mostly black and white art and painting suggestions and didn't cost as much as they do now.
Not really enjoying the digital codex or using a device to view pages. That said I would like unit datasheet cards over a page in a codex if it were an option Easier still to flip through a handful of cards than flip pages or use a search function. They did that for AoS and I really liked that.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 18:45:10


Post by: G00fySmiley


I love how a "which do you prefer and why" became a "my choice is the only correct and right choice and all other opinions are invalid" thread before breaking into page 2... bravo people


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 18:46:05


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 G00fySmiley wrote:
I love how a "which do you prefer and why" became a "my choice is the only correct and right choice and all other opinions are invalid" thread by page 2... bravo people


Welcome to the Internet, where we treat opinions like sports teams


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 19:54:59


Post by: Gert


Physical Codexes allow for the smiting of Wasps. Case closed.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 20:45:27


Post by: Racerguy180


What did Blackie Lawless ever do to you???


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 21:58:08


Post by: PenitentJake


Back to back exalt.

I wanna be somebody!


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 23:01:55


Post by: Karol


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
I love how a "which do you prefer and why" became a "my choice is the only correct and right choice and all other opinions are invalid" thread by page 2... bravo people


Welcome to the Internet, where we treat opinions like sports teams


People get killed over following specific football teams or being beaten up, because grandma gave you a green/white scarf for winter and you didn't know that one of the local 5th division clubs has "edge" beef with a different local club in the area who has it as club colours. Add racial and religion differences to that and sports becomes a very serious thing. Some beefs amongs whole cities are legendary, slag racing is very well know for that. Beefs that date back to pre WWII times.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 23:11:38


Post by: Racerguy180


I thought it was bad between the Sharks & Jets.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 23:32:48


Post by: Sumilidon


leerm02 wrote:



What about you? How much do you enjoy your physical codexes? Would a lower price point make you buy more of them?




They're crap. They contain artwork I can get online and re-hashed stories I already owned from previous codexes (except Necrons where they changed key details of their story). You are paying for someone that will be / is already out of date. It's as if you bought a book for Uni only to find 2 weeks later, it's no longer correct. Yes you have the words to read and pictures to see but it's no longer fit for it's intended purpose.

It's a way to milk the player, nothing more.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/20 23:38:59


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Once upon a time they were something I really looked forward to, and something I would get even for armies I didn't play. And yes, I even own this modern day war crime. But the last Codex I bought was the 7th Ed Genestealer and Deathwatch books. I knew, by that time, that 8th was just around the corner, so I wanted to get their rules in the rules-base I was used to (3rd through 7th) and get all their initial fluff and whatnot. The fact that they were about to be invalidated didn't really matter to me, as I wanted them to have the books, not to play with. I even bought one Codex (Khorne Daemonkin) for work-related purposes, needing it for research for a book I was writing at the time.

Since then, with one exception, I've not purchased a single Codex. Or any 40k written material outside of the core rule books (which came in starter boxes anyway). They are invalidated too quickly, replaced too often, and just feel like a tremendous rip-off. The value is not there.

The only exception I have made since 8th started was the recent Tyranid Codex, because I felt it was genuinely the best Codex they've had since 4th Ed. It made me excited to play Tyranids. I am less excited that 10th seems to be just around the corner and that next weekend might be the first chance our group has had to play 9th since the pandemic started.

Codices now are also very, very expensive. Codices in 2nd Ed were full colour, and longer, and cost AUD$30, or around AUD$57 in today's money. Today they are nearly AUD$90, shorter, have less fluff, far less artwork, and have meagre colour sections. Certainly better than 3rd Ed's pamphlets, but even that trend was dying out by the end of 3rd.

What Codices are now is an interesting look at the design ethos (or lack thereof) within the 40k studio, how they lurch from one paradigm or governing idea to another at a whim, without any real rhyme or reason. I loved the format of the 4th Edition Codices (Marines, Tau, Black Templar) and thought they were really slick, but we also had to suffer through the Jervis-era of the "Wargear" section, created because his son wasn't able to easily tell what everything was, so pictures were married to weapon entries. We mock that, but it was actually a good idea. But GW is great at ideas, and absolutely awful at executing those ideas, so we ended up with Wargear sections that were filled with "See page XX" references (units could have their rules spread over 3 different sections of the book - a couple even had it over 4 different pages!).

This practice reached its absolute nadir in the Imperial Guard Codex that replaced the majestic Doctrine-filled post-Eye of Terror campaign book, where the vehicle wargear section had 31 entries, 25 of which referenced other parts of the book, and 1 was a reference to a different book!

Eventually we ended up with an Ork Codex that had big photos of units rather than artwork and was so light on fluff it made you wonder what was going on. And now we have the current era of Codex, where the fluff we get on a unit is a tiny blurb next to their unit entries, entries that take up far too much space, but also somehow not enough, leaving us with pages with massive blank spaces. Codex layout these days is absolutely atrocious.

So yeah, in the old days I would always get a new Codex. Now, they're not worth the paper they're printed on.



How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 00:15:22


Post by: Canadian 5th


Zero value. None. Zilch.

That Russian page and something to type a list into are more useful than a codex by far.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 06:08:58


Post by: MrMoustaffa


Ive stopped buying codexes. The game is moving so fast I actually have 3 codexes that I havent even gotten to play with and could well be out of rotation before I get to them. Not to mention the fact that most books are halfway out of date within a month due to faqs, erratas, balance tweaks, and points updates.

If the codexes were $25 like they used to be itd be one thing. The new codexes do look nice and have some new lore and art here and there, but its simply not sane to buy a book less than 200 pages for $60 that has a shelf life measured in months to weeks. Hell I give GW less than 6 months from the time the IG codex finally drops till 10th edition gets announced.

I hate not buying codexes because I really like a physical book to reference mid game, but whats the point in bringing the book now? You need to reference 2-3 pdfs anyways, why bother? Not to mention the only way we're going to force GW to fix the codex issue is to vote with our wallets and stop buying them. If it gets to the point where even the space marine codex can barely move off the shelf because no one will buy it, maybe we'll finally get online rules released in a timely manner at the start of an edition. Obviously not free but Id happily pay the warhammer app subscription if I could just get up to date army rules for every army and have all the errata and updates baked in. Ive even given up on the army builder part of the app, I just want one spot up to date with all my rules that I can check on the fly.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 12:50:37


Post by: BuFFo


If I want to play 40k, I have to buy the books required.

So I value them highly.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 14:01:26


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 BuFFo wrote:
If I want to play 40k, I have to buy the books required.
Do you?


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 15:18:54


Post by: Dysartes


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 BuFFo wrote:
If I want to play 40k, I have to buy the books required.
Do you?

If you don't want to enter the, at best, ethically murky waters of piracy, then yes.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 15:23:50


Post by: Karol


Doesn't have to do anything with ethics though. All it takes is for most of your games to be played at a store or at events. And in all those places you can forget running around with wpedia print outs.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 16:18:22


Post by: vipoid


 Overread wrote:
So I recall when codex in the UK were closer to £12 a book. However I also have them on the shelf and I know that they were:

1) Black and White for the majority of the book, with a colour cover and colour painted section in the middle

2) Had only a small/modest amount of lore

3) Were considerably shorter

4) Were softbacks not hardback


Today the codex is £32, but they are also

1) Full colour

2) Considerably longer in both rules and lore

3) Are now hardback.


I think we have different ideas on value.

The old books were indeed softbacks but given that they were also inevitably replaced with new editions, I don't see this as a bad thing. If anything, I resent being charged extra so that they can give longer lifespans to books that have planned obsolescence regardless.

As for full colour, if anything it seems like a step backwards. We've used to have fantastic, black and white artwork that really brought the characters to life and helped set the tone of the setting. In a great many cases, adding colour to many of those drawings has made them worse. Especially since the colour seems to have been smeared on with all the care of a three-year-old painting by numbers. Added to that, we've got the new artwork. And I can't speak for every book but the art in the DE codex is beyond abysmal. It looks like the artist literally threw up on a page them tried to smear it into shapes that vaguely resembled characters and craft.

But of course, the main "benefit" of full colour is that most of the unit pictures have been replaced with catalogue photos. Catalogue photos that, quite unlike the pictures they replaced, do not bring characters to life or set the tone but if anything act to do the opposite. No longer is there anything to evoke the characters, creatures or craft that the figures are supposed to represent. No, now we've just got uninspiring photos of the models to kill any hint of immersion. And while it can be fun to browse through a catalogue, rarely are you expected to pay for them, let alone to the degree GW charges.

As for the books being longer, again I can't speak for every book, but the ones I've read nevertheless feel shorter. I don't know if it's because of the relentless copy and pasting (so I end up skipping over content that I've already read), or if the text uses more words to say less. Either way, I can't say I've ever found myself looking back at my old 8th edition books in the same way that I've looked back in my 3rd-5th era books.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 16:26:04


Post by: Insectum7


^"In a great many cases, adding colour to many of those drawings has made them worse."

This is so painfully true. GWs art department has gone downhill, imo.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 16:40:09


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Insectum7 wrote:
^"In a great many cases, adding colour to many of those drawings has made them worse."

This is so painfully true. GWs art department has gone downhill, imo.

This we definitely agree on. Even if people don't like Newcrons, I remember both the 3rd edition and 5th edition having excellent artwork.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 16:44:45


Post by: Stevefamine


I only use PDFs to game with on my phone or printed out materials

I bring the rulebooks to hand to my opponent or the tournament organizer. If you're not at an event or hitting tournaments with your army - I wouldnt buy any books


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 18:10:37


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Dysartes wrote:
If you don't want to enter the, at best, ethically murky waters of piracy, then yes.
There are people here who think simply using BattleScribe is "piracy".

Karol wrote:
And in all those places you can forget running around with wpedia print outs.
Who needs to print out Wahapedia? I tend to transcribe everything into a spreadsheet. Far easier that way. Time consuming, sure, but it's worth the effort.



How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 18:22:07


Post by: Selfcontrol


I don't value them at all.

1. In my native language, Codexes are plagued with typos. Words are missing, sometimes some words are still in english in the middle of a sentence (and no, it's not the name of a unit), etc. Sometimes, even the rules are wrong ffs !

2. Most Codexes are rehashing the same things (lore, units descriptions, etc). You almost never learn or discover new things. And since 9th, the long unit descriptions have disappeared in favor of the very old small, early 3rd edition style, descriptions.

3. The painting pages are boring.

4. Since GW decided to follow more closely the competitive side of 40K, we have frequent erratas / balance dataslate and as a result, they become very quickly obsolete.

I'd rather for GW to put the rules online (heck, put it behind a Warhammer+ subscription, I don't care) and to always keep them up to date rather than what we have currently.

However, I WOULD totally buy a physical book chock-full of lore (where GW really goes into the details, ala Forgeworld), with extensive painting tips and narrative rules.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 19:55:56


Post by: Dysartes


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
If you don't want to enter the, at best, ethically murky waters of piracy, then yes.
There are people here who think simply using BattleScribe is "piracy".

Using it without having bought the material previously, or having purchased it?


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/21 21:21:35


Post by: blood reaper


With the exception of the Vigilus CSM book, I have not bought a GW book since the 6th ed Chaos Daemons book. The quality of GW material is exceptionally low, and it has an incredibly brief lifespan as well. Ironically the books that tend to last the longest tend to somehow be the worst.

I do not intend to ever buy another book from GW.

People can screech and seethe about piracy all they wish. It's very silly.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 01:32:19


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Greatly prefer a physical Codex to a digital one. The in-game speed of the real book is a major advantage. I have been through many slow games where my opponent is relying on his phone for his rules.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 01:39:28


Post by: BuFFo


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 BuFFo wrote:
If I want to play 40k, I have to buy the books required.
Do you?


Yes.

I don't steal.

If I am going to play Warhammer 40k, I buy the models and the rules.

Which goes back to the OP... I value the rule books and the models GW makes because without either, I ain't playing 40k.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 02:05:33


Post by: Eldarain


Very little. I liked the digital ones. Found them far quicker with the bookmarks.

Game churns too quickly to keep buying hardcover books.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 02:50:31


Post by: tauist


I disagree about physical books being faster to reference rules with. In many occasions, I've had both physical rulebooks and self-made PDF versions on stuff on my iPad, and it's always been way slower and awkward to find a rule from a physical book IME.

Who would use a smartphone to squint at stuff? No wonder yall prefer a physical book..


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 04:17:47


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 BuFFo wrote:
Yes.

I don't steal.
I've never stolen a Codex before. I don't think I could get it out of the store without someone noticing.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 04:38:38


Post by: ccs


 tauist wrote:
I disagree about physical books being faster to reference rules with. In many occasions, I've had both physical rulebooks and self-made PDF versions on stuff on my iPad, and it's always been way slower and awkward to find a rule from a physical book IME.

Who would use a smartphone to squint at stuff? No wonder yall prefer a physical book..


A great many people.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 04:48:23


Post by: Sgt. Cortez


ccs wrote:
 tauist wrote:
I disagree about physical books being faster to reference rules with. In many occasions, I've had both physical rulebooks and self-made PDF versions on stuff on my iPad, and it's always been way slower and awkward to find a rule from a physical book IME.

Who would use a smartphone to squint at stuff? No wonder yall prefer a physical book..


A great many people.


Main reason being that many people don't have / need a tablet in their life. However, comparing phone vs physical book the book is definitely much faster, that's why we usually work with BS printouts or the actual Codex.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 07:16:40


Post by: Blackie


 Dysartes wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 BuFFo wrote:
If I want to play 40k, I have to buy the books required.
Do you?

If you don't want to enter the, at best, ethically murky waters of piracy, then yes.


Borrowing a book from another player and print the few pages you need to play your list is legal in the vast majority of the civilized world. It's not something that uncommon for groups of players who know each other very well. I literally need no more than 10-15 pages to play a 2000 games between faction rules and datasheets of stuff I'm fielding, I don't see any point in bringing one or two whole books with me when I play.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 07:24:33


Post by: Karol


Having a book of your own, and making a print out of it is okey. If printing someone elses book was okey, you wouldn't be kicked out for trying to do it in a library.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 08:40:33


Post by: Blackie


Karol wrote:
Having a book of your own, and making a print out of it is okey. If printing someone elses book was okey, you wouldn't be kicked out for trying to do it in a library.


Here's perfectly legal as long as you print up to 15% of it and it's for personal use, you can't sell those pages. For a codex it's basically the pages that you need to play a game.

And printing pages from a site, which is legal to access, is also legal.



How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 09:40:40


Post by: Dai


Im sonewhat torn, i do believe if you are playing and enjoying a game you should support the creators (the game designers not shareholders or execs), on the other hand i do agree that GWs rule release process is quite anti consumer these days. *shrugs*


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 16:16:09


Post by: ccs


Dai wrote:
Im sonewhat torn, i do believe if you are playing and enjoying a game you should support the creators (the game designers not shareholders or execs), on the other hand i do agree that GWs rule release process is quite anti consumer these days. *shrugs*


I'm sure their support is factored into price of the kits & paint & FW stuff that I buy.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 17:20:49


Post by: Racerguy180


Yup, they get plenty of my money on stuff I feel is worth what I pay for it.

40k books are barely worth the paper, ink & glue they're made of. Let alone the content of said books.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 17:27:18


Post by: BlackLobster


Codexes are too expensive but I'd rather have a physical copy to read and flip through, It's not the same without a physical copy,


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/22 17:33:52


Post by: leerm02


The point of: "you can't print book parts in a library" is quite a strange one.

At this point in my academic career, I have been through the library resource talk about a million times and, I can very much assure you, that you absolutely CAN print things from books in a library. There are limits, but they are pretty generous limits and absolutely wouldn't apply here.

Going back to the discussion:

I tend to still bring my books with me when I play, but I also painstakingly write out little index cards with relevant rules/strategems on them before the game. This really helps if you are using units you don't often use, planning a strategy you don't normally do, or anything else unfamiliar. I'm also one of those people that remember things a lot more clearly if I write them out, so that plays a factor as well.

In a way, that sort of thing was part of my point with this thread. I find that, mostly, I don't end up having to actually even open the codex itself as I have a bunch of nicely written little cards that let me know everything I need for the game.

If that's the case... why did I spend the $60? Again, I DO like the other aspects of the codex... but I just don't think they are worth that price anymore.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 08:14:17


Post by: Stormonu


I have codexes back to around 3rd, but the only ones that aren't in storage are my 8E codexes and the Indexes. I actually prefer the indexes to the codexes - they were the "right price point" with half a dozen armies in each. I've been around the game long enough I don't need the non-game stats and if I did want to look them up, there's plenty of wikis/youtube that cover the lore.

Many years ago I bought an i-pad so I could have all my gaming books in one place. They're all OCRed and bookmarked, and I use them at games all the time now (also keeping track of characters for RPGs, and 3D dice rolling apps to boot). Save a ton of shelf space as well as my back.

I still pull the physical books off my shelf for a read time from time, but to save wear on them I no longer take the paper copies to games.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 10:23:40


Post by: Jidmah


Dai wrote:
Im sonewhat torn, i do believe if you are playing and enjoying a game you should support the creators (the game designers not shareholders or execs), on the other hand i do agree that GWs rule release process is quite anti consumer these days. *shrugs*


I still buy the books I deem worth my money (especially the crusade stuff), but don't actually use them as wahapedia is just much better suited to access rules, datasheets and errata.

You still can get boned by GW when they arbitrarily change the content of that book or suddenly decide it's no longer valid next January.

The era of books should definitely end, hopefully the issues globalization is having right now will soon affect the print business as well.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 10:52:59


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Nowadays I'm not sure if they're worth getting.
The codex turnover right seems pretty high and they cost so much.
They don't even have articles or painting / modeling guides anymore, which is something that earlier editions used to have.

You're basically paying 60USD for studio photos of models, poorly written fluff and rules are that mostly copy pasted and to top it off the very format of the book seems awkward and counter-intuitive. You have to do a lot of flipping around.

A pity, because I do like having a physical copy. It's just not worth the money they ask for.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 11:03:56


Post by: The_Real_Chris


PenitentJake wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:


Now conversions are frowned on as being dangerous threats to 'no model no rules', I know enough of the background and it seems to change often making me less inclined to want to learn it, painting ideas are all over the web and the rules seem to be poorly tested, changed every few months or invalidated.



While conversions are no longer featured in Codices, and while WD articles seldom give you a step by step guide on how to make the conversions, it is not true that GW officially frowns on conversions. I have issue 476 of WD sitting in front of me right now; it includes conversions for a Dark Mechinicum priest kitbashed from the Venomcrawler and Manipulus kits, a Baneblade fitted with an exorcist launcher, a unit of corrupted SoB, a Feudal Guard unit kit bashed from Cawdor/ Cadian/ Krieg models, a unit of Guard Beastmen Conscripts, and a Holy Knight with a church on its back (from the Sigmarite mausoleum).


Yes and their websites show them as well. (Though all but one of your examples were nits as opposed to converting to make new ones.) But the discussion point was about codex books and whether or not you should get them, not other media.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 11:07:48


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


They don't exactly reject conversions (they know better than to do that), but they don't really support them either.
They used to encourage conversions and scratchbuilds a lot more. There used to be articles on how to make your own terrain from materials you can find at a hardware store, as opposed to cannibalizing multiple expensive GW sets.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 11:09:11


Post by: aphyon


How much value does a physical codex have to you?


About $7-$10 US for all the old codexes we use(except the black templar one, for whatever reason the 4th ed codex was stupid expensive to buy) when playing hybrid 5th ed/oldhammer. seriously i already own all the good codexes that matter from every edition (3rd-7th) that we use.
Having the physical copy in my hand is great though, i hate having to look stuff up on a phone or rely on an APP.


I do not play 9th and i never will, and i am glad i do not need to lug around 3-5 books to know how to run a single army.

There may have been less lore in prior paperback/b+w codexes, but I'll say the lore was better. Heck the rules and units were better in many cases. Codexes have inflated their page count but not the quality is not there, certainly not for the price.


+1
Way more immersive as well. that little 3.5 mini dex for my dark angels that cost all of $10 new is still my favorite DA codex


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 15:21:39


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


leerm02 wrote:

Greetings everyone,

I was reading some of the other threads and thinking about how absurd it has gotten that codexes are like $60 a pop in the US. I'm a million years old, and so I can still remember the days of the 3rd edition codexes that were... like $25 I think? I guess I can't remember the exact price, but I do recall that they were cheap enough that I regularly bought new codexes just to read the lore, rules, and get some of the flavor of whatever faction had just come out. Like a lot of you, I also rather enjoyed the artwork, style, and general feeling of the 41st millennium and wanted to get more of it.

Fast forward to today.

I'm actually not sure I'm going to buy any more codexes... ever. I'm actually quite conflicted about this, as I still enjoy the setting, the models, the game experience and all that stuff. I guess I'm not saying I have any intention of not PLAYING 40k... just not of spending $60 for rules I can easily get elsewhere, lore I can easily get elsewhere, and art that is... actually, I still like the art for the most part. I guess my point is that, even though I do tend to enjoy my physical codexes, and sometimes like to do silly things like relax on the couch and just find little bits of lore or description that I didn't notice before, I just don't think that I enjoy them $60 worth.

What about you? How much do you enjoy your physical codexes? Would a lower price point make you buy more of them?

One of the things that also has to be acknowledged here is that the old 3rd edition codexes were tiny compared to today's massive tomes, and every editions codexes have been different in this regard. Is that a factor? What do you think? How much value does a physical codex have to you?



A physical book that I can open and have with me at the store over a e-book, quite a bit. I absolutely detest using e-books.

A full color glossy hardback codex with lots of pictures and lore or a black and white softback book of stats, on the other hand.... I'd take the latter.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 15:46:16


Post by: Audustum


 Blackie wrote:
Karol wrote:
Having a book of your own, and making a print out of it is okey. If printing someone elses book was okey, you wouldn't be kicked out for trying to do it in a library.


Here's perfectly legal as long as you print up to 15% of it and it's for personal use, you can't sell those pages. For a codex it's basically the pages that you need to play a game.

And printing pages from a site, which is legal to access, is also legal.



In many nations, legal =/= moral. It's why adultery isn't illegal in the U.S., for example (the U.S. Supreme Court specifically cited this distinction with that example). The law is supposed to establish a way for everyone to live together while having their rights observed, but it's not supposed to force 'moral' behavior on people.

Now, nations like Saudi Arabia see that differently (and I'm not trying to say only extreme nations see it differently, that's just what sprung to mind as an obvious example, much like the U.S. above since that quote used to be rather famous/infamous).

Anyway, my overall point: yes, I'd say it's definitely a grey area to copy on the moral spectrum if not a legal one in some places (i.e. people will have different views on it and it could swing either way from person to person).

As for the topic, physical books have negative value to me. They take up space and I dislike throwing them away since they're so expensive and are fairly nice books, but I do not want them taking up space. I want them distilled into the aether rather than cluttering up my house.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 15:46:40


Post by: Tallonian4th


It's hard to put a value on something required to play the game as it's higher then the value I would place on a similarly sized book which existed just to convey a story or interesting information. In that way it is more like a technical or academic text, sometimes these are way over priced but that is down to their nature as necessities (also sometimes due to low sales potential but this is less true of Codexs). I do think they are over costed now though, but not enough to put them into the so expensive I will stop playing the game category.

Getting into the game I bought models, the faction Codex and used the free core rules. This was suggested to me by the GW store manager to help keep costs down and to prevent from being overwhelmed with rules. So for me the Codex is more essential to play the game then BRB as you can play a simplified 40K without the BRB but without a Codex you don't have the stats for playing a faction. Though this has changed with the mini datasheets in with the models now so arguably you just need the models. The Codexs being so close in price to the BRB now has really mitigated that new player cost saving which will possibly cause a few to be more hesitant about getting into the game.

I think the biggest issue with the physical book is the physical updates to them are scattered here there and everywhere over the Warhammer Community downloads section. It's hard to keep track of what is relevant to your faction and you end up printing endless sheets just to make sure you have all bases covered. What they should do is have one link for each faction that takes you to a document that details all changes to that faction since the Codex release be it from, FAQ, Balance Dataslate, points update, etc. I've no aversion to having to print out a few pages of updates to slip into the back of my Codex compared to the nightmare of paper work, not all of which I need, that is currently offered.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 16:01:49


Post by: oni


I have a fairly strong and unwavering opinion on this topic. Simply...

I will only buy the physical book.

I will only play with an opponent who has a physical book.



How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 16:29:20


Post by: tauist


Sgt. Cortez wrote:
ccs wrote:
 tauist wrote:
I disagree about physical books being faster to reference rules with. In many occasions, I've had both physical rulebooks and self-made PDF versions on stuff on my iPad, and it's always been way slower and awkward to find a rule from a physical book IME.

Who would use a smartphone to squint at stuff? No wonder yall prefer a physical book..


A great many people.


Main reason being that many people don't have / need a tablet in their life. However, comparing phone vs physical book the book is definitely much faster, that's why we usually work with BS printouts or the actual Codex.


Interesting. I wouldn't have / need a computer in my life if certain software was available on iOS. I spend 99% of my online life on an iPad. Guess we are still a minority in these parts. (I don't have a smartphone, only a 2018 nokia 3310 remake)

I usually have BS split screened with my DIY pdfs, and wouldn't have it any other way.



How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 16:46:02


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 tauist wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
ccs wrote:
 tauist wrote:
I disagree about physical books being faster to reference rules with. In many occasions, I've had both physical rulebooks and self-made PDF versions on stuff on my iPad, and it's always been way slower and awkward to find a rule from a physical book IME.

Who would use a smartphone to squint at stuff? No wonder yall prefer a physical book..


A great many people.


Main reason being that many people don't have / need a tablet in their life. However, comparing phone vs physical book the book is definitely much faster, that's why we usually work with BS printouts or the actual Codex.


Interesting. I wouldn't have / need a computer in my life if certain software was available on iOS. I spend 99% of my online life on an iPad. Guess we are still a minority in these parts. (I don't have a smartphone, only a 2018 nokia 3310 remake)

I usually have BS split screened with my DIY pdfs, and wouldn't have it any other way.



I hate tablets. It's the worst of all worlds. Has the low capability and crappy experience of using a smartphone, and the large size and weight of a laptop computer. And they're far too expensive to just walk around with on a daily basis, and too big to put in anything smaller than a laptop bag.

At that point, I might as well bring a laptop. Then I have a keyboard and mouse for inputs and the general capability of a computer. And either way, I wouldn't actually bring either out with me, too big and expensive to have set up on a table in a a public environment where I don't have my eye on it continuously.



When it comes to reference material, I think the physical book is by far the easiest and best way to go.
That said, they're also far too expensive nowadays for what you're getting. The Indecies were by far the high point for rules distribution for 40k. I don't need full color images or lore blurbs, I just need a paperback, cheap, pile of my rules I can stick bookmarks in.

And I would say that the cost of codecies has become too much for me. I've chosen to pass on one this edition and shelve that army indefinitely, and while I've already bought the others and intend to buy the one that hasn't come out yet [IG], I plan to further reduce my active 40k armies to just IG and Sisters, and maybe Space Wolves, next codex cycle, because I don't get enough value out of the codecies over their lifetime to warrant buying them at the exorbitant price for full color, hardback, lore books.

If I break down my gameplay, I try to get a game of some kind in every week. Splitting the difference between all about 8 or 9 different miniatures games I play and too many different forces between them, I really only get value out of my most used, favorite 40k armies, and my others get played maybe once or twice a year. I also prefer 5e 40k to 9e, so that's further limits the use new codecies for off-main armies get.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 17:09:58


Post by: Toofast


Hardback isn't a value add on a book I have to drag everywhere that will be obsolete in a year or two anyway.
The "artwork" has become mostly photoshopped pics of models that I saw online 2 months before the codex released.
They get day 1 FAQs meaning the printed copy is obsolete before you even get it home.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 17:30:17


Post by: DoctorDanny


Zero. Printed game manuals belong back in the 1990s.

Haven't used a codex in the last two years of gaming. Anyone telling me they won't play because I don't have the original codex can go play with themselves instead, but strangely no-one has ever said that.

Given how much GW dares to ask for their models I say their rules should be free. Especially since they tend to be out of date just a few weeks after the codex releases.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 18:44:32


Post by: ccs


 oni wrote:
I have a fairly strong and unwavering opinion on this topic. Simply...

I will only buy the physical book.

I will only play with an opponent who has a physical book.



My Drukari army/collection consists of 23 models: Boss Elf x1 (pick one: Archon/Succubus/Haemunculous/Drazzar), Venom x1, then all Talos & all Cronos as fits the points.
That's 7 data sheets + the generic rules for faction + my chosen Coven + the relics. + the balance update.
I've distilled this to 9 pages & put those in a cheap paper folder like you'd use in grade school.
I'm only carrying the bitz of the Codex that I need.

This + the card pack for strats + dice & tape measureis all I bring when playing this force.
And eventually I'll make a 10th page for the strats I actually use & retire the card pack....

But if I played a holier than thou type like you? Then I'd just take a pic of my bookshelf & you could rest easy knowing that I have indeed wasted my $ on the whole Codex. I'm just not carrying it with me.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 18:45:27


Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim


The late 4th (5th) Ed ork codex- priceless.
The 9th dex?, couldn’t pay me to pick one up.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 19:36:51


Post by: ph34r


I've spent too many countless thousands of dollars on GW to feel like I absolutely must buy every codex I want to play with. By the time I'm done building and painting an army to a painted-enough, not-proxying level, there are probably 3 or 4 datasheet updates, FAQs, edition changes, or other nonsense that render my book largely pointless anyway.


And the books don't really have as fully developed fluff sections/short stories any more, which is crazy given how much they pump up the page counts and slap hard covers on it


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/23 19:51:59


Post by: vipoid


ccs wrote:

But if I played a holier than thou type like you? Then I'd just take a pic of my bookshelf & you could rest easy knowing that I have indeed wasted my $ on the whole Codex. I'm just not carrying it with me.


I now have an image of people pirating your picture of a bookshelf to 'prove' they own the physical books.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 03:59:08


Post by: tauist


 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 tauist wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
ccs wrote:
 tauist wrote:
I disagree about physical books being faster to reference rules with. In many occasions, I've had both physical rulebooks and self-made PDF versions on stuff on my iPad, and it's always been way slower and awkward to find a rule from a physical book IME.

Who would use a smartphone to squint at stuff? No wonder yall prefer a physical book..


A great many people.


Main reason being that many people don't have / need a tablet in their life. However, comparing phone vs physical book the book is definitely much faster, that's why we usually work with BS printouts or the actual Codex.


Interesting. I wouldn't have / need a computer in my life if certain software was available on iOS. I spend 99% of my online life on an iPad. Guess we are still a minority in these parts. (I don't have a smartphone, only a 2018 nokia 3310 remake)

I usually have BS split screened with my DIY pdfs, and wouldn't have it any other way.



...

I hate tablets. It's the worst of all worlds. Has the low capability and crappy experience of using a smartphone, and the large size and weight of a laptop computer. And they're far too expensive to just walk around with on a daily basis, and too big to put in anything smaller than a laptop bag.

At that point, I might as well bring a laptop. Then I have a keyboard and mouse for inputs and the general capability of a computer. And either way, I wouldn't actually bring either out with me, too big and expensive to have set up on a table in a a public environment where I don't have my eye on it continuously.



I have lived with an iPad since the first iPad Air model was released. I find the 10" form factor to be just about perfect. I need to carry a backpack with me at all times anyway (meds etc) and I can still fit my gorceries in to the backpack even with the iPad included. iPads can run a whole day without battery and their chargers are much tinier than typical laptop chargers..

TL;DR - I have 100% inverted opinion on this matter, laptops are unwieldy things that you always need a table for. 10" tablets that are light enough to use withone hand rule! So will just agree to disagree.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 04:54:02


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Responding to OP

Generally speaking a physical army book I would personally value at about $35 as a baseline. In my eyes I am paying not only to have a handy physical reference instead of an inconvenient digital one, but also cool fluff and a bunch of awesome artwork. Would prefer paperback as opposed to hardback (even at the same price) but is what it is.

If I am getting a (well adapted) digital copy of the rules as part of it I would up the personal value to the $40-45 range.

I'd be content paying $50 if it included a digital copy of the entire book; fluff, showcase, rules and all.

At $60 it would have to be a release I was super hyped about. I may buy it anyways, but realistically I would be looking to get a discount somewhere and I certainly would feel unhappy about it.

There is a big caveat to this though, and it is the quality of 9th edition rulebooks. While in terms of basic physical properties (printing, binding, page count, etc) they are fine, but I feel the rules have bloated out with a lot of low-quality design work and that has done even further harm by cutting into the fluff sections. So while the above values are my baseline, 40k 9th has reached a point so bad in my eyes I would confidently cut those numbers in half for what I would be willing to pay.

Suffice it to say I'm not playing 40k right now.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 10:10:56


Post by: Overread


So fun thing my online banking app that I use to access all my current banking (because regular banks are mostly gone and the telephone takes forever) doesn't work any more.

Why? Because the tablet I use no longer gets updates for the latest Android and the Banking app got an update that will only install and work with the latest Android.


So this reminds me of one issue with digital software you don't get with a book. An older edition written in a book still works identically well 10-20-30 years later. In fact you've got to start treating the book really badly or go to insane lengths of time to destroy it.

Digital can vanish overnight with an update; it can vanish overnight with being removed; it can glitch and crash or be a problem to access just because its older digital technology; in a sector of the world that advances at a very rapid pace.





How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 10:25:39


Post by: Jidmah


The only outdated books I ever look at are 4th edition's codex orks, Imperial Armour 8 (the ork/elysian one), and 8th edition DG. You can be sure that I'm not really looking at the rules in any of them.

I don't think I have opened any of the 7th edition books once after I left the game during that time. I couldn't even tell you where they are. Same goes for the indices. Obsolete rules can just be tossed out, there is no reason to keep them around. The only rules from past editions I actually do care about are narrative missions.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 10:56:44


Post by: Overread


So you do care about past rules, just only parts of them.


Interestingly you mentioning the Imperial Armour reminds me that GW actually HAS taken the rules out of their past editions that they've made accessible through the Warhammer Vault system. So we are already there where digital back-access has stripped rules content.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 11:03:46


Post by: Tyel


It feels kind of sacrilegious - but at some point I really should just bin a pile of ancient rule books.

Someone out there may want 6th-8th edition WHFB army books or 5th-8th edition 40k codexes. But anyone really want the Age of Sigmar 1.0 big book? A bunch of MK2 Warmahordes stuff? A big book Infinity put out circa 2015 or so?


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 11:12:15


Post by: Overread


I see secondhand game books sell on ebay all the time.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 11:40:35


Post by: Jidmah


 Overread wrote:
So you do care about past rules, just only parts of them.

None of the rules I care about can be found in codices or any of the BRB - which are precisely the rules that should stop being books and go to digital only.

Narrative rules never get updated anyways, those can stay books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Overread wrote:
Interestingly you mentioning the Imperial Armour reminds me that GW actually HAS taken the rules out of their past editions that they've made accessible through the Warhammer Vault system. So we are already there where digital back-access has stripped rules content.


As I said, if GW broke into my house and whited out all the rules from those books, their value for me wouldn't decrease by one cent. I read them for the lore, pictures, silly stories or how an army operates.

I'd probably be sad about the SAG rules being gone, but only because the are rules were mixed in with the descriptions of what each mishap did in the lore.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 19:53:01


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


In the past, I'd say about $35-45, or whatever the price of a not-D&D hardcover RPG. Which that RPG book should have a similar if not reduced print run, keeping the profit margins close to GW and whoever is producing the RPG book.

However, I have finally started getting 9th codices, and they feel pretty dire to me. The cardboard or whatever used in the covers feel a lot more floppy and cheap than I am used to hardback books of their size. The two (Necrons and Chaos Knights) I have, also seem pretty thin to me. The CK ones being a few pages less than my 8th ed C:GSC and my C:Necrons having the same number of pages. But that could be me primarily used to my C: CSM and C:SM (I didn't bother with 9th for SM, as 8.5 wasn't even cold product yet).

What I am becoming less tolerant of is layout. I fielded my Necrons for the first time this weekend, so I was doing the usual flipping back-and-forth in the codex to try and not miss anything. Now I knew from Wahapedia, I had a couple of shooting Strats to use with my Warriors, but being new; I didn't remember exactly how they worked. So I went from the Warrior datasheet, through Jay Goldfinch's Crusade Army, through the Crusade Rules, through the Match Played rules, through the army rules, through the Battle-Forged rules to finally find where the Stratagems are. Only to scan through them and find that most shooting strats that Necron Warriors can use are for Rapid Fire weapons (I had all Guass Reapers). And straight up missed my Dynasty strat (Mephrit) as I didn't want to delay the game searching for it. Tangent: there are no examples of what the Mephrit Dynasty color scheme is in the codex. No models or art that I saw; I find that mildly amusing as someone that has a strong 'play the subfaction they are painted' influence for myself.

Now, many of those sections I mention are a page or two. But I don't see why the Crusade (or Matched Play for that matter) should separate Army rules, strats and datasheets. All that could be after that in the back of the book. I am starting to think that unit specific strats should be listed in the datasheet, so players both don't have to go to the strat section and don't have to search through to find them. And in all honestly, I do like Wahapedia's just listing all applicable, but I'll concede that page count and redundancy could be an issue in physical media. I also think I like the idea of all the Subfaction stuff (abilities, Warlord Trait, Relic, Strat(s), etc.) being lumped together. Both for a player to more easily decide which subfaction, as well as, ease of referencing everything a subfaction can take rather than skimming through all the other subfactions _______ to find the subfaction _______ you are using. I could be well off base here since layout and editing aren't my bag, but I really feel the information could be ALOT more user-friendly.

Due to the quick turnaround on codices, their increasing price, my decreasing tolerance for their layout and other issues, I already skip half of the armies I have in 40k. If GW wants my money for their increasingly pricer codices, they are going to have to put more effort in. But seeing as I don't purchase any rules' literature (I probably wouldn't have got a BRB if not for Indomitus) other than codices, I know I am small potatoes. Doubly so, if I am only buying 2 or 3 codices/battletomes my now 7-ish armies across 40k/AoS. And I don't even really care that stuff gets FAQ/Errata'd all the time/weeks after release. The stuff I use the codices for is usually perfectly fine.

Still, I am the sort of person that buys RPG books just to learn about a fictional setting and see how the author(s) went about game mechanics for that setting, with no actual intention of running/playing that game. So it seems GW is doing a pretty bad job, if someone is probably could be labeled a white-knight/CAAC (I'd disagree though) on occasion, isn't willing to spend money on books they would actively use.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 20:25:16


Post by: NinthMusketeer


I'll vouch for the fluff writing in AoS tomes still being solid. It hasn't been cut to nubs like in 40k.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 20:31:44


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'll vouch for the fluff writing in AoS tomes still being solid. It hasn't been cut to nubs like in 40k.


Agreed. The short stories in the Slaves to Darkness battletome are quite good. I really enjoyed the path of the Varangaurd one, as well as, the Daemon Prince vs. the Stormcast Eternal one.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 22:07:05


Post by: ERJAK


I think the only books that had rules in them I've read the fluff of are Broken Realms Morathi and Fall of Cadia. I've tried to read lore out of other tomes/codex I've come across over the years, (most notably the Chaos books which are always SOMEONE'S favorite) but the writing is generally just okay and often kind of stilted.The actual content is fine sometimes, the Sisters of Battle Codexes have some cool unit description.

They could cut all of it and it would change very little for me. For a battletome I'd say like 20-25 dollars for the rules. I'd pay 30 for spiral bound. Campaign books aren't really a product for me but for a rules supplement like the OoML "book" or the Bloody Rose "Book" I feel like GW paying me 25 dollars for the hassle of pirating the 3 pages of content they made is about fair.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/24 22:22:46


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I'll vouch for the fluff writing in AoS tomes still being solid. It hasn't been cut to nubs like in 40k.


Agreed. The short stories in the Slaves to Darkness battletome are quite good. I really enjoyed the path of the Varangaurd one, as well as, the Daemon Prince vs. the Stormcast Eternal one.
Oh yeah, especially the latter for me. The amount of depth and emotion packed into that single-page story is absolutely nuts, I would rate it as one of the better stories I've read from AoS overall despite it's length. If army books regularly delivered content like that I'd be quite happy to pay the prices they ask.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote:
I think the only books that had rules in them I've read the fluff of are Broken Realms Morathi and Fall of Cadia. I've tried to read lore out of other tomes/codex I've come across over the years, (most notably the Chaos books which are always SOMEONE'S favorite) but the writing is generally just okay and often kind of stilted.The actual content is fine sometimes, the Sisters of Battle Codexes have some cool unit description.
I also find myself regarding the writing as OK... until I read the offerings of other companies, be it wargames or RPGs. But then for me a big part of the quality is the quality of the setting being written about, so that is an extra subjective measure on an already subjective topic.

At any rate, I will definitely agree with you on the bias. That is consistently the single biggest thing I dislike about army book lore; the propaganda-like level of slant towards the army at hand. I absolutely understand that an army should be viewed favorably in its own book, but the descriptions quite often cross the line into describing capabilities that clearly aren't true (in either the tabletop rules or actual stories). Though obviously some armies are more victim to this than others. Reading the Custodes fluff was very amusing for me, since marines are already hyped to high heaven in there own lore there is nowhere left to go for the guys that are even better. It was a whole bunch of 'yeah they can do this thing it would take 100 marines to do but with only ONE squad!' then heroes which were like 'yeah they could do this thing it would take 100 marines to do but with only ONE guy!'


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/25 10:18:30


Post by: Karol


Well the thing is in the lore before GW brought out the cusodes codex, they were exactly the way they were described in the lore. The problem of course arises when the game and its mechanics, have to coexist with lore. GW did a lot to tone marines, custodes etc down comparing to how they were in the past.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/25 12:26:59


Post by: Lord Damocles


 Overread wrote:
Digital can vanish overnight with an update; it can vanish overnight with being removed; it can glitch and crash or be a problem to access just because its older digital technology; in a sector of the world that advances at a very rapid pace.

Lets not forget that when GW killed the old White Dwarf app a couple of years ago, the six or seven people actually using it just lost all of their digital back issues if they hadn't downloaded them.

None of my physical copies have ever just evaporated into the ether because GW pulled a plug.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/25 18:41:08


Post by: Nevelon


 Lord Damocles wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Digital can vanish overnight with an update; it can vanish overnight with being removed; it can glitch and crash or be a problem to access just because its older digital technology; in a sector of the world that advances at a very rapid pace.

Lets not forget that when GW killed the old White Dwarf app a couple of years ago, the six or seven people actually using it just lost all of their digital back issues if they hadn't downloaded them.

None of my physical copies have ever just evaporated into the ether because GW pulled a plug.


On the flip side, you never loose digital stuff that’s on the cloud if your basement floods.

There are perks to both sides.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/26 05:47:30


Post by: NinthMusketeer


Quick caveat to my above statements about AoS army book quality; the Nighthaunt one is an exception. That one is a soulless, disjointed husk that feels like it was put together by interns. And I mean that quite seriously; I would say it face to face if I could.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/26 05:55:53


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Isn't that the most recent one? Does it signal a paradigm shift in AoS books towards less fluff and more pictures/rules?

'Cause 40k got that around the time of the 5th (6th?) Ork 'Dex.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/26 09:04:30


Post by: Nazrak


I like having a book in theory because, for me, my hobby time is largely my "no-screen" time. What I don't like in practice is the current big, hardback codices.

1. It's treating a document with a shelf-life of sometimes little more than a year as a premium, long-lasting book, which is horrible both in terms of pricing and from a sustainability perspective.

2. Big hardback books are unwieldy, heavy, and take up a bunch of flat space which is often at a premium on a gaming board.

I'd much rather a softback, or spiral-bound A5 (or thereabouts) Codex that neatly and concisely lays out all the information I need to play a game (put in some army-specific counters too, so I can keep track of stuff in-game, maybe), then maybe a separate, less-frequently-updated lore/nice pictures book for each army. Maybe even bundle them in together, as I'm not *too* keen on the idea of making just raw rules available separately, as a "role-play that gak" kind of guy.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/26 09:11:05


Post by: Jidmah


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Isn't that the most recent one? Does it signal a paradigm shift in AoS books towards less fluff and more pictures/rules?

'Cause 40k got that around the time of the 5th (6th?) Ork 'Dex.


I'm fairly sure you are thinking about the 7th edition codex, the second worst book to ever be released by GW.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/26 10:15:08


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Jidmah wrote:
I'm fairly sure you are thinking about the 7th edition codex, the second worst book to ever be released by GW.
Oh wow... there really was a 2 edition* gap for the Orks. So, yeah, the 7th Edition one is what I'm referring to.



*As much as one can call 6th an "edition", given it was on sale for about 3 and a half days.



How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/26 10:25:08


Post by: Jidmah


I'd argue that it was a 3 edition gap, considering how orks would have been better off if they simply hadn't gotten a codex in 7th.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/26 10:31:38


Post by: Uptonius


I think value is a bit suggestive. For myself, they have little to no value. The physical books are far too expensive for what they are.
The quality of GW rules is so poor that they will be rewritten immediately after the release of the book. So the rules are worthless.
The lore is mostly just reprinted material. The 4th? 5th? Edition Ork codex was a carbon copy of the 2nd edition one. So if you have access to YouTube and lore channels the lore in the books is worthless.
Then there's the artwork. Some people enjoy digital art. I do not. Personally, each pic by John Blanche drops the value of anything to me exponentially.
Codex IMHO are completely worthless and quite frankly a horribly outdated method of supplying rules to a board game.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/26 18:10:01


Post by: aphyon


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I'm fairly sure you are thinking about the 7th edition codex, the second worst book to ever be released by GW.
Oh wow... there really was a 2 edition* gap for the Orks. So, yeah, the 7th Edition one is what I'm referring to.



*As much as one can call 6th an "edition", given it was on sale for about 3 and a half days.




6th edition

June 23, 2012-May 24, 2014 just short of 2 years

Worst edition ever made by GW (even they realized it). even the core rules of 7th were an improvement before formation spam happened, didn't think they could do worse, then 9th edition happened.


I do love my 4th edition Ork codex. best one they ever made in my opinion especially when combined with the options available from forge world at the time.

I think 90% of my favorite codexes are either 3rd or 4th edition.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/05/27 04:05:53


Post by: Dirtbag


While I like the physical codices for my armies, I miss being able to buy digital versions of others to read on my iPad. The app (phone only) doesn’t fill that niche, and, since they forced us to physical only, I buy only the essentials, since I don’t want a bunch of heavy books to tote around every time I move.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/02 10:05:59


Post by: MorglumNecksnapper



Used to buy every new codex (that's years and years back) for a fun look through. With current pricing I only buy the codex for armies I play. For Orks, Eldar and GSC I buy limited edition codex, no reason besides I really need them .

Talking about things being expensive and comparing to older prices is pretty useless in my mind, but as stated, it does impact what I buy nowadays. It's a luxury hobby after all.

And buying the physical books for ease of use and because I just like books. For games/tournaments I seldom use them, I make an Excel page of what my army does and print that, just one A4. If anybody doubts the information I got the books with me.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/10 15:20:22


Post by: StaevinTheAeldari


With GW's model of physical copies? Negative.

It's a 50 year old publishing model that became obsolete 30 years ago. The codexes themselves are awful.

I bought the new Eldar codex and within weeks they had errata. Weeks! Aside from the mechanics the codex regurgitates lore that are almost as old as the publishing model. If I were to spend money on a physical copy of a codex it should at least provide: Good Lore, Good Painting/Sculpting content, and Good Rules. Not Crappy Rules That Will Immediately Be Updated, Handful of Photos and Awkward Flavor Text.

No way I'm doing that gak again. If I want a faction codex I can just pick an older codex up second hand.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/10 17:31:51


Post by: Dysartes


Would you prefer it if they didn't errata things that are incorrect, or answer FAQs that are raised?


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/10 18:50:33


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Dysartes wrote:
Would you prefer it if they didn't errata things that are incorrect, or answer FAQs that are raised?

In the number of issues that arise each time? Nah, I'd rather just not pay for a codex, period.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/11 02:17:18


Post by: Hecaton


 Dysartes wrote:
Would you prefer it if they didn't errata things that are incorrect, or answer FAQs that are raised?


We'd rather they playtested to the point that day-1 patches weren't necessary and any changes required were minor.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/11 08:54:51


Post by: Overread


To be fair most FAQ/Errata are not that long.

Even shorter when you consider some are just minor changes in wording/stats.


The issue isn't that they do FAQ/Errata. The issue is that with the broken up nature of the rules they end up doing a LOT of FAQ/Errata's.


One way they could make it simpler is to create one document for each faction, then place into that all the FAQ/Errata details for each of the different publications that that faction has rules in currently. Not only does that make it a lot easier to find the information you need as it reduces the headspace needed to sort; not only is it easier for newbies as there's now 1 document not dozens. But it also acks like a current check list of where rules are for the faction.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/11 09:04:03


Post by: Dysartes


 Overread wrote:
One way they could make it simpler is to create one document for each faction, then place into that all the FAQ/Errata details for each of the different publications that that faction has rules in currently. Not only does that make it a lot easier to find the information you need as it reduces the headspace needed to sort; not only is it easier for newbies as there's now 1 document not dozens. But it also acks like a current check list of where rules are for the faction.

You could include the "valid rules sources" information in there, too - though I'd probably keep a core rulebook file distinct from the faction files.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/11 09:16:49


Post by: Dai


I remember when they realeased a dark elf army book errata back in the 90s as a paper insert in the book with an "our bad" on it


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/11 09:18:09


Post by: Dudeface


 Dysartes wrote:
Would you prefer it if they didn't errata things that are incorrect, or answer FAQs that are raised?


Currently unless you respond with "yes they should be utterly perfect, totally balanced day 1 and free" you're going to get the same people always telling you how bad the codex model is. Nobody will say its good but they'd definitely whine (and do) if problems aren't sorted out with the errata and faq's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hecaton wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Would you prefer it if they didn't errata things that are incorrect, or answer FAQs that are raised?


We'd rather they playtested to the point that day-1 patches weren't necessary and any changes required were minor.


You're still advocating for day 1 changes there.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/11 11:54:32


Post by: Unit1126PLL


I feel like people are missing the forest for the (former, now paper) trees.

If you have to update your rules rapidly, and disseminate them rapidly, and printing makes that difficult, then USE DIGITAL DISTRIBUTION rather than a physical copy being the only option.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/11 12:39:50


Post by: Dudeface


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I feel like people are missing the forest for the (former, now paper) trees.

If you have to update your rules rapidly, and disseminate them rapidly, and printing makes that difficult, then USE DIGITAL DISTRIBUTION rather than a physical copy being the only option.


This basically. If you buy the book know it's going to not be entirely relevant for it's entire edition cycle.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/16 12:55:49


Post by: Slipspace


 Dysartes wrote:
Would you prefer it if they didn't errata things that are incorrect, or answer FAQs that are raised?

Of course not. You may have noticed that the topic of this thread concerns physical books. If someone's complaining about updates and errata in that context the obvious conclusion is they'd like to see the distribution model changed. The need for frequent errata would be much less of a problem if the product was digital.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/16 13:12:46


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Slipspace wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Would you prefer it if they didn't errata things that are incorrect, or answer FAQs that are raised?

Of course not. You may have noticed that the topic of this thread concerns physical books. If someone's complaining about updates and errata in that context the obvious conclusion is they'd like to see the distribution model changed. The need for frequent errata would be much less of a problem if the product was digital.

And free.
Charging you for a book with a two year life span is just filthy, especially when the book is about the same as a set of models.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/16 13:29:14


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Two year? Try two week.

By the time Australia got the Tyranid Codex it was already out of date.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/16 13:46:24


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Two year? Try two week.

By the time Australia got the Tyranid Codex it was already out of date.

How did that happen? Shipping problems?


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/16 14:01:48


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I presume so. They've had a lot of region-specific delays in recent months, and in the case of the 'Nid release (Codex, Cards, Dice, the itty bitty wingy thingy) it was delayed by over a month or so.



How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/16 19:10:47


Post by: Dysartes


Slipspace wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Would you prefer it if they didn't errata things that are incorrect, or answer FAQs that are raised?

Of course not. You may have noticed that the topic of this thread concerns physical books. If someone's complaining about updates and errata in that context the obvious conclusion is they'd like to see the distribution model changed. The need for frequent errata would be much less of a problem if the product was digital.

Of course, if you'd read the post I was replying to, you'll note that they were complaining about there being errata, full stop. No mention of it being better if the material was distributed digitally vs. physical, etc.

Hence my question to them, which seems to have been ignored.

For oh so many years, people complained that things weren't getting addressed. The quality probably wasn't that much better, though with an overall slower release schedule, we didn't see new issues crop up as often. We are in a position now where we know there will be an initial errata/FAQ to catch the most obvious issues (like missed keywords, for example) within 4 weeks of a book coming out. People would've been over the moon if this was a thing during 5th, 6th or 7th, yet now it is apparently a negative?

And don't get me started on this "out of date" nonsense about the Tyranid book. That errata document? Ten items being errata'd, plus two FAQs to clarify how thing should be played. I don't have the Tyranid Codex to compare the original to what was fixed, but two of the errata should definitely have been caught before print (the two ones where a keyword is being added to a datasheet) - I'm less clear on the others, though I'd guess the HT weapon option one is because they didn't think anyone would go for the Two Big Gun Tyrant approach.

10 changes, 12 if you're being picky, at least two of which (adding missing keywords) should be a positive. Everything that makes it to print has errors to some degree or other. Should GW be catching more of these before they go to print? Sure, not going to argue that.

But you don't get to bitch about books being "out of date" in an edition where you know there are:
a, An errata/FAQ released ~4 weeks after launch
b, A quarterly balance dataslate that may affect the rules for your faction
c, A six-monthly points update
d, Further errata/FAQ released... roughly every six months (I've lost track of the Big FAQ Update schedule, if I'm honest)
e, An annual Power Level PDF update

Anyone posting frequently about 40k on here should be fully aware of all of the above, so give over when it comes to this "out of date" nonsense.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/16 19:58:17


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Dysartes wrote:
Slipspace wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Would you prefer it if they didn't errata things that are incorrect, or answer FAQs that are raised?

Of course not. You may have noticed that the topic of this thread concerns physical books. If someone's complaining about updates and errata in that context the obvious conclusion is they'd like to see the distribution model changed. The need for frequent errata would be much less of a problem if the product was digital.

But you don't get to bitch about books being "out of date" in an edition

Yes I do when I'm expected to pay $60 for said book.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/16 20:11:55


Post by: PenitentJake


Dudeface wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I feel like people are missing the forest for the (former, now paper) trees.

If you have to update your rules rapidly, and disseminate them rapidly, and printing makes that difficult, then USE DIGITAL DISTRIBUTION rather than a physical copy being the only option.


This basically. If you buy the book know it's going to not be entirely relevant for it's entire edition cycle.


I can get behind "In addition to"

But not "Rather than"

People who want digital should 100% be able to get it.

Ditto for people who want paper.

All about solutions that satisfy the greatest number, not just the people in My Camp.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 03:43:40


Post by: Unit1126PLL


The only problem with "in addition to" is it very rapidly becomes "rather than" for economic reasons. I agree with you in principle, but...

The books are expensive to print (hence the price). Selling them digitally for $10 in a convenient place that is automatically updated... Alongside selling hard copies for $50 that have all this extra bookkeeping and costs you overhead and shelf space and whatnot...


One of those models is going to kill the other.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 04:32:50


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Dysartes wrote:
For oh so many years, people complained that things weren't getting addressed.
There's a marked difference between addressing things in the rules that need to be errata'd or ambiguous or unclear rules that require an FAQ, and things that they're flat out changing because they didn't test the book correctly and missed the massive imbalances in their rules.

So when I say outdated it's not because they clarified something that might have had two interpretations based upon the wording, or that they printed value X rather than value Y due to an honest mistake. I say outdated when they flat out change rules. The Tyranid Codex/cards aren't outdated because they forgot to include 'Synapse' in the Zoanthrope entry and added it via errata, it's outdated because things like "Encircle the Prey" literally had the wording of the rules changed so that it now operates at a different time. "Power of the Hive Mind" is another example; they haven't fixed a functionally broken rule or cleared up some ambiguity - they just changed the rules.

This comes back to something catbarf said in a different thread:
Catbarf wrote:Yeah, it's not the complexity that gets you, it's the cognitive load.

...

If you lose track of what Synaptic Imperatives you've used, or what Synaptic Imperatives you've assigned to which units, or what Adaptive trait you've picked for the battle, or what psychic powers you've attempted in the turn, you might cheat without meaning to.
But make it someone picking up the brand new Codex for the first time. They may be cheating without knowing it simply because GW invalidated the rules in their book before it was even on sale in their country.



How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 05:02:20


Post by: Dai


You cant unintentionally cheat. That is called an honest mistake.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 05:06:57


Post by: Eldarain


Almost nothing.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 05:13:23


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Dai wrote:
You cant unintentionally cheat. That is called an honest mistake.
C'mon man: Context.

It's clear what Catbarf is talking about.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 06:24:33


Post by: Jidmah


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The only problem with "in addition to" is it very rapidly becomes "rather than" for economic reasons. I agree with you in principle, but...

The books are expensive to print (hence the price). Selling them digitally for $10 in a convenient place that is automatically updated... Alongside selling hard copies for $50 that have all this extra bookkeeping and costs you overhead and shelf space and whatnot...


One of those models is going to kill the other.


Not really - other companies also have print to order products which then just has a third party company print one copy of that book.

However, as I said in another thread, large parts of GW are earning their money with book printing and they will likely fight tooth and nail not get replaced by a contractor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dai wrote:
You cant unintentionally cheat. That is called an honest mistake.


You can get penalized as if cheating even if it was an honest mistake.

For example, when I switch between orks and DG too often in short intervals, I sometimes mess up rules between them, the most common one being PF = S10. Technically there is no way for you to differentiate between me cheating to have better wound rolls and me being an idiot for having ork stats hardwired to my brain.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 06:53:51


Post by: Blackie


 Dysartes wrote:


For oh so many years, people complained that things weren't getting addressed. The quality probably wasn't that much better, though with an overall slower release schedule, we didn't see new issues crop up as often. We are in a position now where we know there will be an initial errata/FAQ to catch the most obvious issues (like missed keywords, for example) within 4 weeks of a book coming out. People would've been over the moon if this was a thing during 5th, 6th or 7th, yet now it is apparently a negative?

And don't get me started on this "out of date" nonsense about the Tyranid book. That errata document? Ten items being errata'd, plus two FAQs to clarify how thing should be played. I don't have the Tyranid Codex to compare the original to what was fixed, but two of the errata should definitely have been caught before print (the two ones where a keyword is being added to a datasheet) - I'm less clear on the others, though I'd guess the HT weapon option one is because they didn't think anyone would go for the Two Big Gun Tyrant approach.



I don't really have a problem with "out of date books", IMHO frequent FAQs and changes are good and healthy, even if they are dropped days after a book's release.

I did complain a lot when things weren't getting addressed, so what we have now is a very positive feature in my eyes. What I can't stand is having to re-buy a codex (and an edition rulebook) every 2-3 years, in that I'd like to go back to the old cycle of releases rate. We already have lots of orks players who are looking forward to a new codex but the current one is not even one year old. I'd rather stick with it for a long time and address it with free changes, even multiple corrections.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:


You can get penalized as if cheating even if it was an honest mistake.

For example, when I switch between orks and DG too often in short intervals, I sometimes mess up rules between them, the most common one being PF = S10. Technically there is no way for you to differentiate between me cheating to have better wound rolls and me being an idiot for having ork stats hardwired to my brain.


Yeah, in 8th I played the KFF wrong for almost an year. I didn't do it on purpose, but the way I played it (for "wholly within" I intended "at least a fraction for each model/base in the squad) I gained a significant advantage.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 07:00:35


Post by: dreadblade


I really like physical codexes, and the mix of lore and rules. For me 40K isn't a digital game, so a physical rulebook sits well with the physical models on the table. I do use BattleScribe for army lists though, and the 40K app for quick reference when not playing.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 12:30:22


Post by: Karol


 Jidmah wrote:


You can get penalized as if cheating even if it was an honest mistake.

For example, when I switch between orks and DG too often in short intervals, I sometimes mess up rules between them, the most common one being PF = S10. Technically there is no way for you to differentiate between me cheating to have better wound rolls and me being an idiot for having ork stats hardwired to my brain.

It happens in sports all the time. gear had the wrong or broken seal, you went out in the wrong shoes etc The difference is that for non of those do you risk getting a life long ban, unlike lets say having a small engine inside your bike to help you a bit .
People learn to live which such errors, and sometimes they can feel really bad, but life is bad in general. What rules and TO should be stopping is people breaking the rules over and over again, on purpose and without any backlash. I doesn't even matter why the TOs do it.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 13:18:30


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Jidmah wrote:
You can get penalized as if cheating even if it was an honest mistake.
I still remember a thread from Dakka where many, many posters were all taken by surprise that Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons didn't get 2D6+S armour penetration, because so many of us had read the rule incorrectly for so long, and just assumed what the rule was.

None of it was intentional.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 15:43:12


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Jidmah wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The only problem with "in addition to" is it very rapidly becomes "rather than" for economic reasons. I agree with you in principle, but...

The books are expensive to print (hence the price). Selling them digitally for $10 in a convenient place that is automatically updated... Alongside selling hard copies for $50 that have all this extra bookkeeping and costs you overhead and shelf space and whatnot...


One of those models is going to kill the other.


Not really - other companies also have print to order products which then just has a third party company print one copy of that book.

However, as I said in another thread, large parts of GW are earning their money with book printing and they will likely fight tooth and nail not get replaced by a contractor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dai wrote:
You cant unintentionally cheat. That is called an honest mistake.


You can get penalized as if cheating even if it was an honest mistake.

For example, when I switch between orks and DG too often in short intervals, I sometimes mess up rules between them, the most common one being PF = S10. Technically there is no way for you to differentiate between me cheating to have better wound rolls and me being an idiot for having ork stats hardwired to my brain.

Sorry but I call BS because Marines have basically always been S4.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 17:27:18


Post by: VladimirHerzog


EviscerationPlague wrote:

Sorry but I call BS because Marines have basically always been S4.


yeah, and Nobs are S5..


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 17:29:11


Post by: Karol


Aren't all mobs and warbosses S5 though? If someone is used that orks fists are S10, then it can be possible to not remember that for DG it is S8, specialy when for a lot of targets it doesn't matter much.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 17:53:16


Post by: CadianSgtBob


 dreadblade wrote:
I really like physical codexes, and the mix of lore and rules.


Question: have you played previous editions? Because after coming back from a break it was shocking to me how little non-rules content there is in current codices compared to what they used to have.

So yeah, in answer to the title question: almost zero value. Wahapedia covers the rules in a better format, I don't need to pay $50 for a copy of how the rules used to be six months ago and a stripped down fluff section that contains half of what my 4th edition copy of the book has.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 18:05:56


Post by: dreadblade


CadianSgtBob wrote:
 dreadblade wrote:
I really like physical codexes, and the mix of lore and rules.


Question: have you played previous editions? Because after coming back from a break it was shocking to me how little non-rules content there is in current codices compared to what they used to have.


I have - RT and 8th (although RT didn't have codexes as such). I do agree about the fluff in the 9th edition codexes, and I've mentioned it on here before. I did prefer it when codexes had descriptions and images of every unit.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/17 19:32:09


Post by: Jidmah


EviscerationPlague wrote:
Sorry but I call BS because Marines have basically always been S4.

And nobz haven't.

Thanks for demonstrating why spectators should not be allowed to interrupt streams though


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/18 23:54:16


Post by: Stormonu


 Dysartes wrote:
Would you prefer it if they didn't errata things that are incorrect, or answer FAQs that are raised?


Why isn't "get it right the first time around" on the table?


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/19 06:27:31


Post by: Dysartes


 Stormonu wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Would you prefer it if they didn't errata things that are incorrect, or answer FAQs that are raised?


Why isn't "get it right the first time around" on the table?

A, Something will always slip through the net - if expensive academic textbooks can feature mistakes, I'm not surprised that a Codex can. The two keyword examples from the Nid book being an example here.
B, Just because something is right in the eyes of the Studio, doesn't mean people aren't going to ask questions, which is why there's a need for FAQs.
C, In the case of points, as everything isn't currently written and balanced together at the same time, there is often a need to adjust things after the fact.
D, While "get it right first time" is a nice ideal, it's unlikely to actually be delivered - by any studio.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/19 09:18:14


Post by: Overread


We swing back to the same problem GW always has over other rules systems. Most other rules systems advance much more slowly and remain in the market for way longer. Edition changes tend to (not always) be more of a collective series of changes that happened during the life of the previous edition; whilst sometimes introducing a few new mechanics.

GW tends to throw one book out and replace it with another. They change for the sake of change alone because they've found it generates a guaranteed level of sales for them. So the barrier GW always has is that they only have a few years to balance things and that it often takes more than half the time (even now, in the past it took more than that time) to release all the armies to have a "complete game".

So GW's continual shake-up approach means that there are always things slipping the net; always new things to errata and FAQ because the system is always changing.


Video games often do this too in competitive games, Starcraft 2 has changed a lot from its launch state including adding and removing some units as well as changing some abilities around (eg the Thor seems to constantly switch from its abilities being either timer or resource based and from being anti ground to anti air mega guns). However often those games make gradual evolution changes and, in the end, the changes are done on the engine so the player only has to note the change and play; they don't have to enable the change themselves like you do in a physical game


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/19 11:38:09


Post by: SemperMortis


The best and most obvious solution is for GW to switch to Digital Codex across the board. Easy to patch, FAQ, Errata etc. Overhead goes down by such a ridiculous amount that in a vacuum it doesn't make sense not to. Problems with switching to the digital only option is that 1: as mentioned GW has a pretty huge income from selling books and taking that away would annoy them greatly. And 2: one of the best ways to get new people into the game is to see the codex and flip through it, I can't tell you the # of times i've watched a bright starry eyed kid come in and flip through a codex and get addicted

I think the best solution is the combined arms option. Print a new codex every edition, continue to charge extortion level fees for it ($60). Have inside that codex a code to a digital Codex on GWs now FREE app (screw you and your subscriptions) where you can have access to a digital copy that is updated frequently with FAQ's points etc.

Because here is the situation as it stands. Printing is stupid for a game which has/needs frequent rule changes/updates. Subscription based Apps which can be EASILY circumvented by a specific Russian Based website which hosts all the rules for Free and flips GW the bird while doing so means you are shooting yourself in the foot profit wise. Take the L on subscription fees, tie the PHYSICAL codex to a digital platform and move on.

Only reason I can think they haven't done this is greed. GW's board thinks they can keep milking the nerds for more money Wait until the recession really kicks off and see what happens.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/19 17:13:03


Post by: catbarf


SemperMortis wrote:
I think the best solution is the combined arms option. Print a new codex every edition, continue to charge extortion level fees for it ($60). Have inside that codex a code to a digital Codex on GWs now FREE app (screw you and your subscriptions) where you can have access to a digital copy that is updated frequently with FAQ's points etc.


Personally, I'd happily buy a 'codex' that's just a massive collection of art, fiction, and hobby content centered on that faction, with the rules then available free online. Total newbies walking into a store are going to see the same 'hooks' (nobody is getting excited over statlines when they don't know the game), while existing players can pore over the stats and start wishlisting army lists online.

Plus, GW's really sleeping on the possibilities of digital formatting for both ease of play and ease of updates. I played both 40K and OnePageRules with some wargaming newbies the past two days. We played strictly-out-of-the-book 9th, and even then the guys needed some help flipping through the codices to find stats for relevant units, or to the back to find their wargear. It was a breath of fresh air to use OPR's online listbuilding app, build a list, hit 'print', and watch my printer spit out the full profiles, wargear, and special rules of just units I picked for an army. Then yesterday evening, we decided to mix up the armies, so I printed out the current unit rosters (which come densely formatted so that they don't take up more than two pages- you could probably fit most 40K armies into 4-5) and we made lists on paper. No pages of errata stuffed into a codex, no needing our phones to build lists or play the game, and no flipping back and forth through a 120+ page book of which maybe 10 pages are relevant to the current game.

Obviously GW likes 'mandatory' book purchases, but anecdotally I'm seeing enough people turning to Battlescribe and Wahapedia (instead of buying books) that I have to wonder whether a digital model that's easier to play, easier to keep up with, and makes it easy to window-shop new armies might drive model sales enough to make up for a loss of book revenue.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/19 17:45:49


Post by: Hecaton


 Dysartes wrote:

A, Something will always slip through the net - if expensive academic textbooks can feature mistakes, I'm not surprised that a Codex can. The two keyword examples from the Nid book being an example here.


These examples are more prevalent than what you see in academic textbooks. So it's a matter of degree.

 Dysartes wrote:
B, Just because something is right in the eyes of the Studio, doesn't mean people aren't going to ask questions, which is why there's a need for FAQs.


A lot of it could be solved by writing it more coherently.

 Dysartes wrote:
C, In the case of points, as everything isn't currently written and balanced together at the same time, there is often a need to adjust things after the fact.


Sounds like a failure of process.

 Dysartes wrote:
D, While "get it right first time" is a nice ideal, it's unlikely to actually be delivered - by any studio.


GW is exponentially worse than any other major studio at it. Even CB, and they aren't writing in English.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/21 09:08:23


Post by: Huron black heart


Nowadays they have practically no value, they're far too expensive, become amended almost immediately, become obsolete far too quickly, too heavy to carry alongside everything else you might need for a game.
And to be fair the main reason is the various other ways to get your rules are simply better. A combination of Wahapedia and battlescribe with perhaps a couple of printed sheets with your rules summary is much easier to use.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/21 11:05:24


Post by: lare2


Until very recently it was important to me to always have the codex. However, this year, with everything that's going on, I cannot justify the cost for a book which I know will be obsolete far too quickly. I'd much rather put food on my kids' table until things get better. Consequently, I've now zero intention of buying anymore books this edition. That also goes for CA.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/21 11:10:22


Post by: A Town Called Malus


Hecaton wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:

A, Something will always slip through the net - if expensive academic textbooks can feature mistakes, I'm not surprised that a Codex can. The two keyword examples from the Nid book being an example here.


These examples are more prevalent than what you see in academic textbooks. So it's a matter of degree.


This. Also, GW's mistakes are often way more egregious.

If the GW rules team was tasked with producing an Intro to Physics textbook they would get Newton's Second Law wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dysartes wrote:

D, While "get it right first time" is a nice ideal, it's unlikely to actually be delivered - by any studio.


The rulebooks you are selling to customers should not be the first attempt.


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/21 12:11:05


Post by: Not Online!!!


@A Town called Malus, especially not by a company that is how long in the buisness for selling us that specific ruleset?



How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/21 12:13:55


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
If the GW rules team was tasked with producing an Intro to Physics textbook they would get Newton's Second Law wrong.
Reminds me of an old quote surrounding the GW "Rulez Boys", as they were once known:

"Ask a Rulez Boy a question, and he will give you three answers, each one different and wrong."


How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/21 12:35:17


Post by: Eilif


Been out of 40k for over a decade but my son and I recently started playing Grimdark Future. However, I really like having the physical codex for it's fluff, art and inspirational pictures. I've bought quite a few Codices from 1 or 2 editions ago, even some for Armies I don't have. No way I'll buy one at current prices but I'll happily plunk down 10 bucks for a nice hardbound book that I'm going to enjoy reading and will increase my enjoyment of my chosen game.

So, in answer to the thread topic, having a physical Codex is important to me, even if I don't play actual 40k

The sort of balance in print materials I'm seeking is perhaps best exemplified by Kings of War. You get the big shiny rulebook to pour over on the couch, but you only need one other supplement to have the background and rules for ALL factions. Once a year updates are published in a collected book, but that's largely optional.




How much value does a physical codex have to you?  @ 2022/06/21 13:10:45


Post by: NephMakes


 catbarf wrote:
Personally, I'd happily buy a 'codex' that's just a massive collection of art, fiction, and hobby content centered on that faction, with the rules then available free online.

Me, too. I can't ever see myself playing full-scale 40K or Age of Sigmar. I prefer skirmish-scale games, and even if I did play full armies I'd prefer a different ruleset. But I'd buy codexes for my favorite 40K and AoS factions if they were just art, lore, fiction, and pictures of cool models, conversions, and terrain.