https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/mYZ4b5gZUiktj4GI.pdf

Looks like we get the new points a few days before the new Chapter Approved.

Not had a chance to go through them yet, but I look forward to many head-scratching changes.

Thank you. Also it looks like GW is a bunch of funny guys who like to joke around. One has to appriciate that.

Tyranid points nerfs, some major ones. Some questionable ones. Directly nerfing Warriors rather than the overperforming loadout (dual boneswords, str5 -2 gun i forget its name).

A slightly more in-depth look reveals this is pretty low-effort. I don't play any of the currently busted armies, so I assume there's more going on there.

As an example: Heavy Intercessors are still 28 points. BA best units got cheaper but most other SM units didn't change significantly (???). Necrons got some buffs, but probably not enough.

Just because a unit doesn't show up often doesn't mean it also needs a point cut. Some do, but not all.

Then what does it need. If it is not being used, then clearly there is something wrong with it.

Fellblades down 50 PPM. Groovy.

Karol wrote:
Then what does it need. If it is not being used, then clearly there is something wrong with it.

sometimes, stuff isnt used because theres better options. So if the better option gets nerfed, or a change in the meta happens, these underused units can become playable without any changes.

Sanguinary Guard getting a 2 point discount is a bit of a head-scratcher. They are a staple of competitive lists and really benefit from Armour of Contempt. Oh well, that saves me 20 points in my regular list.

One other thing that's easy to miss: there's a balance dataslate due tomorrow according to the last paragraph of the article on WarCom.

Slipspace wrote:
One other thing that's easy to miss: there's a balance dataslate due tomorrow according to the last paragraph of the article on WarCom.

Sigh, why not release it at the same time as the points -.- fething GW, man

The most exciting thing is that Plague Marine updates are now free.

Finally it is their time to shine in the sun.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
One other thing that's easy to miss: there's a balance dataslate due tomorrow according to the last paragraph of the article on WarCom.

Sigh, why not release it at the same time as the points -.- fething GW, man

I mean it's a day. Let's just process the points and then hit the dataslate in context.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:
The most exciting thing is that Plague Marine updates are now free.

Finally it is their time to shine in the sun.

Yea seems really solid. Maybe people will break out that deepstrike AoR.

 Thadin wrote:
Directly nerfing Warriors rather than the overperforming loadout (dual boneswords, str5 -2 gun i forget its name).

That is by far the worst hit the Tyranids have taken.

By choosing to increase the points of Warriors rather than adding a cost to Twin Boneswords/Deathspitters they have guaranteed that that is the only combo worth taking, as the others aren't effective enough to justify the increased cost.

Their hamfisted attempts to balance a Tyranid unit has, in effect, created a larger amount of imbalance. I am simply in awe of their continued ability to reach new heights of utter incompetence at every turn.

Could someone remind me if this new system includes base wargear or not?

I'm trying to work out whether the Venom has dropped 10pts but I'm scratching my head as to whether it pays an extra 10pts for the base Splinter Cannon?

If it has a points cost for a weapon, and that weapon is part of its default loadout, then you have to pay for it.

Extra 70pts for a Stormsurge is a big oof, but I'll still use it, don't get the mindset of those who claim it's "literally unplayable" the moment the points go up.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If it has a points cost for a weapon, and that weapon is part of its default loadout, then you have to pay for it.

Ah, I see.

In other news, I hate GW so much.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
Then what does it need. If it is not being used, then clearly there is something wrong with it.

sometimes, stuff isnt used because theres better options. So if the better option gets nerfed, or a change in the meta happens, these underused units can become playable without any changes.

Okey, but those don't happen in a CA, you need a codex for that and we are at an end of an edition, so the chance to update a unit for any faction, in maner that would make it more enticing to use is zero for most faction. We are talking here stuff that for some factions could happen in 2023 or even 2024.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:
The most exciting thing is that Plague Marine updates are now free.

Finally it is their time to shine in the sun.

Yea seems really solid. Maybe people will break out that deepstrike AoR.

I am actually excited and inspired to paint the rest of my Plague Marines. Long live the Lord of Barbarus. Long live Mortarion.

Karol wrote:

Okey, but those don't happen in a CA, you need a codex for that and we are at an end of an edition, so the chance to update a unit for any faction, in maner that would make it more enticing to use is zero for most faction. We are talking here stuff that for some factions could happen in 2023 or even 2024.

Ok. lets take a simple example.

Gaunts aren't being played as much as warriors right now because warriors are just better.

What if Warriors now cost 100ppm? Guess what, Gaunts will be played even if their pts cost didnt change (exaggeration obviously but the same can happen with smaller points changes)

Maybe I missed it and that already happened in the last points updates but it looks like the Sentinel Weapons are now "baked in" the 40 points unit cost. Sucks for the Multilaser Sentinel which loses its only advantage of being cheaper. Great for lascannon sentinels that go down 10 points (from 50 to 40, so -20%)

Should I move this to news and rumors?

 Eldarsif wrote:
The most exciting thing is that Plague Marine updates are now free.

Finally it is their time to shine in the sun.

Plague Marine updates?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
The most exciting thing is that Plague Marine updates are now free.

Finally it is their time to shine in the sun.

Plague Marine updates?

Plague Marines themselves did not change, but their loadouts now all cost 0 points. For some reason I wrote updates instead of loadout. I should probably stay off the sauce.

 Eldarsif wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
The most exciting thing is that Plague Marine updates are now free.

Finally it is their time to shine in the sun.

Plague Marine updates?

Plague Marines themselves did not change, but their loadouts now all cost 0 points. For some reason I wrote updates instead of loadout. I should probably stay off the sauce.

Eh, still won't use them out of principle with the terribly designed unit entry.

The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Ok. lets take a simple example.

Gaunts aren't being played as much as warriors right now because warriors are just better.

What if Warriors now cost 100ppm? Guess what, Gaunts will be played even if their pts cost didnt change (exaggeration obviously but the same can happen with smaller points changes)

But GW did not and would not make warriors 100pts per model. At least not without producing a new model for them, which would mean a new codex, which they just got, so it wouldn't happen. This is talking about potential changes, and of the type GW doesn't do. What I am talking about is real changes that should have been done to units to make them playable. Which is specialy true, when with necrons they more they agreed to have dropped the ball hard, and lowered the point cost of practicaly everything necron.

Looks like the App is not updated correctly.


I can only speak for Deathguard, but app still showing old prices for:

Blightlord Terminators
Poxwalkers
PlagueMarine Weapons etc

Most others are on there so the update has happened, just not comprehensive

Doohicky wrote:
Looks like the App is not updated correctly.


I can only speak for Deathguard, but app still showing old prices for:

Blightlord Terminators
Poxwalkers
PlagueMarine Weapons etc

Most others are on there so the update has happened, just not comprehensive

Who wants to take bets Battlescribe will be up to date sooner or at the same time LOL

EightFoldPath wrote:
The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

Well yes. But does it matter?

I mean it may hurt at an intellectual level that bolters are the same price as better weapons.
But... just don't run pure bolter guys? Take all the special weapons? I think most people running plague marines (not a remotely competitive unit since early 2021) were doing that anyway. If Plague Marines are somehow good, then frankly I think that's great.

Same story with Tyranid Warriors really. I'm not sure there's a mountain of points space between the deathspitter and the devourer. There probably is a few points in the swords vs talons/claws - and certainly taking swords+gun versus say some "talons/claws" build. But in practice, I've never seen such in the wild - and I'm not sure I'd expect to. (There possibly is something "FUN" in an all talons build, but... I think you knew what you were getting involved in by embracing such.)

I called Trajann going up to 200, which is awesome. He's finally where he should be. But Bikers staying 80 points seems odd, given their uselessness in their current state.

Glad they fixed Trajann now though.

It matters because all the other options are waste of time and space.

It matters because it limits strategy, tactics, and list-building.

It matters because this isn't a game where there should even be an automatic best answer to every situation.

For tyranids specifically, its a long legacy of GW reblending the same weapons and deciding (more or less at random) which the best one is. Which means the 'best' answer over the long term is leaving the models unfinished so you don't need to change them.

Tyel wrote:
Same story with Tyranid Warriors really. I'm not sure there's a mountain of points space between the deathspitter and the devourer. There probably is a few points in the swords vs talons/claws - and certainly taking swords+gun versus say some "talons/claws" build. But in practice, I've never seen such in the wild - and I'm not sure I'd expect to. (There possibly is something "FUN" in an all talons build, but... I think you knew what you were getting involved in by embracing such.)

Putting quad talons on a Warrior used to be a good way to build a unit that blends chaff (pre-8th) or was a cheap and cheerful melee synapse leader (8th). Now it just kinda sucks. If you took talons and a ranged weapon, you're best off just counting the talons as boneswords. Bigger issue if you took rending claws because those are pretty terrible now, with virtually no situation in which they outperform boneswords.

This is rather like telling the Guard players who put grenade launchers on their infantry 'sorry plasma guns are just better in every way now, but you knew what you were getting into by embracing grenade launchers'. Uh, exactly what did they 'know' they were getting involved in?

Well, in any case I guess GW heard me wish that PL represented upgrades as well as points, and so the monkey's paw curled a finger.

Well, or also magnets

 Tyran wrote:
Well, or also magnets

GW fething over Tyranid weapon options each edition is literally the reason I got into magnetization, so fair enough.

Even with magnets, I happen to really like how Scything Talons look, and find it a shame that crunch-wise there's virtually no reason to ever take them over Boneswords.

Best part is that Chaos Space Marines get the two wound markup while at one wound. Obviously the update is soon but until the book comes out the marine unit either does not exist or pays 18 pts for T4 1W and a 3+.

EightFoldPath wrote:
The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

They need to fire that guy before he turns 40k into a boardgame instead of a hobby with achievement deriving from longterm dedicated investment. They might get more short term participation, but it will hurt longterm commitment.

Grots are 4 points now.
Seems to be the most significant change for Orks

BrainFireBob wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

They need to fire that guy before he turns 40k into a boardgame instead of a hobby with achievement deriving from longterm dedicated investment. They might get more short term participation, but it will hurt longterm commitment.

Yes, they should have fired Cruddace a long time ago.

Sadly IG players were blinded by his 5th ed IG codex.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


Their hamfisted attempts to balance a Tyranid unit has, in effect, created a larger amount of imbalance. I am simply in awe of their continued ability to reach new heights of utter incompetence at every turn.

It used to surprise me but now I expect it. Death, taxes, and GW having incompetent rules writers.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Grots are 4 points now.
Seems to be the most significant change for Orks

few hqs and buggies down a few points. but yea given the changes to other armies orks unless something big happens tomorrow will stay terrible.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
Then what does it need. If it is not being used, then clearly there is something wrong with it.

sometimes, stuff isnt used because theres better options. So if the better option gets nerfed, or a change in the meta happens, these underused units can become playable without any changes.

Space Marines have too many choices in general, something is always going to get shafted. Especially a niche, more expensive troop option that no one asked for.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Extra 70pts for a Stormsurge is a big oof, but I'll still use it, don't get the mindset of those who claim it's "literally unplayable" the moment the points go up.

Tyel wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

Well yes. But does it matter?

I mean it may hurt at an intellectual level that bolters are the same price as better weapons.
But... just don't run pure bolter guys? Take all the special weapons? I think most people running plague marines (not a remotely competitive unit since early 2021) were doing that anyway. If Plague Marines are somehow good, then frankly I think that's great.

Same story with Tyranid Warriors really. I'm not sure there's a mountain of points space between the deathspitter and the devourer. There probably is a few points in the swords vs talons/claws - and certainly taking swords+gun versus say some "talons/claws" build. But in practice, I've never seen such in the wild - and I'm not sure I'd expect to. (There possibly is something "FUN" in an all talons build, but... I think you knew what you were getting involved in by embracing such.)

This. Just because a unit used to cost 320pts on paper doesn't mean that it's really "worth" 320pts. If you spent all those posts on Plague Marines and got fists and icons just because you likely weren't getting their "value" for it. We're unlikely to see Plague Marines becoming overwhelming or the new meta.

Quickly glanced over the CA 2022 point-changes for SM (non-chapter specific)



Basically, some stuff that needed to get cheaper did,, some stuff that needed to get cheaper didn't.

Most of the SM-tanks get a 10-15 point discount, and the heavy tanks get a 20-35 point discount.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
Then what does it need. If it is not being used, then clearly there is something wrong with it.

sometimes, stuff isnt used because theres better options. So if the better option gets nerfed, or a change in the meta happens, these underused units can become playable without any changes.

Space Marines have too many choices in general, something is always going to get shafted. Especially a niche, more expensive troop option that no one asked for.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Extra 70pts for a Stormsurge is a big oof, but I'll still use it, don't get the mindset of those who claim it's "literally unplayable" the moment the points go up.

Tyel wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

Well yes. But does it matter?

I mean it may hurt at an intellectual level that bolters are the same price as better weapons.
But... just don't run pure bolter guys? Take all the special weapons? I think most people running plague marines (not a remotely competitive unit since early 2021) were doing that anyway. If Plague Marines are somehow good, then frankly I think that's great.

Same story with Tyranid Warriors really. I'm not sure there's a mountain of points space between the deathspitter and the devourer. There probably is a few points in the swords vs talons/claws - and certainly taking swords+gun versus say some "talons/claws" build. But in practice, I've never seen such in the wild - and I'm not sure I'd expect to. (There possibly is something "FUN" in an all talons build, but... I think you knew what you were getting involved in by embracing such.)

This. Just because a unit used to cost 320pts on paper doesn't mean that it's really "worth" 320pts. If you spent all those posts on Plague Marines and got fists and icons just because you likely weren't getting their "value" for it. We're unlikely to see Plague Marines becoming overwhelming or the new meta.

Saying 'so what if the thing that is worse costs the same as the thing that is better, deal with it!' ...just balance games by wounds count if that is the logic.

Tyel wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
The GW rules writer who has a fetish for Power Level must have eaten/absorbed the other rules writers, as that can be the only explanation for Plague Marines (and plenty of other slightly less striking examples including Tyranid Warriors).

Absolute lunacy that a squad of 5 costs 105 points whether it has 5 bolters or it has 2 plasma guns, 1 blight launcher and 2 bolters (as well as a free power fist on the champion and you might as well take the 2 icons/banners on the 2 bolter guys so they don't feel left out).

I think you can make a legitimate looking 320 point 10 man unit that now thanks to the free upgrades will cost 210 points compared to the current all bolters 210 point unit which stays 210 points.

Well yes. But does it matter?

I mean it may hurt at an intellectual level that bolters are the same price as better weapons.
But... just don't run pure bolter guys? Take all the special weapons? I think most people running plague marines (not a remotely competitive unit since early 2021) were doing that anyway. If Plague Marines are somehow good, then frankly I think that's great.

Same story with Tyranid Warriors really. I'm not sure there's a mountain of points space between the deathspitter and the devourer. There probably is a few points in the swords vs talons/claws - and certainly taking swords+gun versus say some "talons/claws" build. But in practice, I've never seen such in the wild - and I'm not sure I'd expect to. (There possibly is something "FUN" in an all talons build, but... I think you knew what you were getting involved in by embracing such.)

There are two issues:

First, you have the DG player from 8th edition who owns 30 PMs, 20 with bolters, he now owns 10 PMs for 9th and 20 pretty paperweights.

Second, you have the DG player from 9th edition who will build 30 PMs, 0 with bolters. When 10th edition rolls around or in 6/12 months time (one of the Sister banner things went from costing ponts to free a while ago back to costing points today) he is going to be surprised to learn he now needs to own possibly another 30~60 PMs to build sensible squads again.

There was nothing stopping GW from dropping PMs to 19 and then dropping the weapons from 10 down to 5 or 5 down to 3. Strangely enough that would have allowed 210 point 4 of the best melee weapon builds, 210 point 4 of the best ranged weapon builds and all kinds of funky middling builds with a variety of weapons. Best part of that would no one sitting on bolter PMs would feel like a chump for owning them because at least they were cheaper if you just wanted cheaper.

BrainFireBob wrote:
[They need to fire that guy before he turns 40k into a boardgame instead of a hobby with achievement deriving from longterm dedicated investment. They might get more short term participation, but it will hurt longterm commitment.

These terrible points choices make playing with the models over the long term very unsatisfying. It is even worse than the traiditonal GW hokey-cokey of just switching which the best special/heavy option is around roughly each edition.

Again, you do wonder if it is a deliberate ploy (rather than sheer dunce level incompetence) because whenever a new kit comes out nowadays I'm over the moon if it just has a single mono-profile for the squad.

Really excited to get my Hammerfall Bunker on the table with the new points drops. You just never see them

Oh wait, they didn’t touch it….. I guess they must be selling just fine (yeah right) what a bizarre omission, especially with all the vehicle buffs. Maybe dataslate tomorrow will have it function as a true drop pod (suuuure).

Some of the vehicle drops are definitely welcome though

 Eldarsif wrote:
The most exciting thing is that Plague Marine updates are now free.

Finally it is their time to shine in the sun.

You'd think that's the last thing they'd want to do.

https://tabletoptactics.tv/?p=353500#1655210473784-160168b4-e211

Shows all the changes. Pretty much this round was a hammer to Eldar, Tau, and Nids. I play Eldar and personally I think all of the points increases for Eldar are legitimate. My Thousand Sons actually did pretty well as well with the Rubrics. We will see if this shakes up the meta, especially on top of the CP change and the balance sheet which is tomorrow I believe.

Tyranids didn't get any sort of hammer. The codex is still amazing and top tier.

We got a hammer, but the codex is still top tier even after the hammer. The same applies to Eldar. Tau may be dead though.

Of course, we still have a dataslate tomorrow, so we are not out of the woods yet.

 Tyran wrote:
We got a hammer....

Hammer in this context means the nerf hammer, that basically blows a codex up into crap. We didn't get that. We aren't Custodes or Tau.

Tyranids got the clown mallet that makes squeaky noises.

- edit -

Because this is Dakka, and everyone assumes/rationalizes, let me add the caveat that I'm not implying Tyranids NEEDED a huge nerf. I'm glad we got a slap on the wrist. I can still enjoy the game.

 BuFFo wrote:
Tyranids got the clown mallet that makes squeaky noises.

To match the squeaky clown shoes the rules writers currently wear?

 BuFFo wrote:

Hammer in this context means the nerf hammer, that basically blows a codex up into crap. We didn't get that. We aren't Custodes or Tau.

Tyranids got the clown mallet that makes squeaky noises.

Nerfs are nerfs, specially when some of the point increases are over 20% or higher.
It isn't going to make the codex into crap, but the faction is going to suffer a notable decrease in power as the average competitive list went up 200 or even 300 points.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:
Tyranids got the clown mallet that makes squeaky noises.

To match the squeaky clown shoes the rules writers currently wear?

Depends. The Tyranid codex is an amazingly well written/thought out book in context to how Tyranids have been in the past. Most fluffy, engrossing, best all around codex Tyranids have ever gotten.

I'm also in the camp that holds it's best to power up weaker armies rather than punish customers for buying models. Bring everyone up, instead of knocking success down.

We can get you guys some more point hikes if you really want.

 Tyran wrote:
It isn't going to make the codex into crap, but the faction is going to suffer a notable decrease in power

So in other words, "mission accomplished"?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BuFFo wrote:
I'm also in the camp that holds it's best to power up weaker armies rather than punish customers for buying models. Bring everyone up, instead of knocking success down.

You can lower points only so far before you start a race to the bottom. Up is better than down.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
It isn't going to make the codex into crap, but the faction is going to suffer a notable decrease in power

So in other words, "mission accomplished"?

Well, we still have the dataslate and GW's love for double dipping to survive tomorrow.

Well they've triple dipped on the Maleceptor. How much worse can it get?

Yea I'm hoping the slate gives some love to Daemons and Admech, because it clearly didn't happen here. ( I'm on the fence about GSC )

Otherwise the point adjustments seem decent enough to get us through the next 6 months.

Tomorrow will be an interesting day for sure...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea I'm hoping the slate gives some love to Daemons and Admech, because it clearly didn't happen here. ( I'm on the fence about GSC )

Otherwise the point adjustments seem decent enough to get us through the next 6 months.

Tomorrow will be an interesting day for sure...

I'd add Orks onto that list. The last few dataslates/CAs haven't been kind to them. Not to mention their mess of a codex.

I hope they update the PL list to match the changes.

 BuFFo wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:
Tyranids got the clown mallet that makes squeaky noises.

To match the squeaky clown shoes the rules writers currently wear?

Depends. The Tyranid codex is an amazingly well written/thought out book in context to how Tyranids have been in the past. Most fluffy, engrossing, best all around codex Tyranids have ever gotten.

I'm also in the camp that holds it's best to power up weaker armies rather than punish customers for buying models. Bring everyone up, instead of knocking success down.

Ah yes never ending power creep. Eventually power level is so high then alpha strike leaves no survivors.

Real cool that after nerfing Daemons for no reason they've proceeded to lower the points of exactly no codex units. Games Workshop sucks cock.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Real cool that after nerfing Daemons for no reason they've proceeded to lower the points of exactly no codex units. Games Workshop sucks cock.

Is this about the CP changes or something else? (I'm not disagreeing about Daemons needing buffs to remain relevant)

I am pretty mad about some details, but I think overall it is a step in the right direction. Even if free wargear upgrades are cursed as feth. S7 AP-4 D2 or S6 AP-3 D1, who can tell the difference? GW sure can't.

 Blndmage wrote:
I hope they update the PL list to match the changes.

I believe Power Level updates are an annual thing, regardless of how many times points get tweaked in the interim.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Saying 'so what if the thing that is worse costs the same as the thing that is better, deal with it!' ...just balance games by wounds count if that is the logic.

That is what I was hinting at. With a small number of units to pick from GW decided to leave strikes and interceptors at 22 and 26 pts, at the same time leaving termintors at 40. In fact all the GK points changes were done only to units that got identical changes in the marine codex aka the land raiders, flyers etc But those changes still don't make the unit useful in a GK army. I would get changes like that, if a codex was "coming soon", but it ain't. The book that exists right now is going to have to last for the next 2 years or so.

The points changes looks like mostly a step in the right direction. Not sure why they didn't touch Hail of Doom, or Harlequins, but maybe those will be addressed in the balance dataslate up today.

Even as a player who has a Death Guard army, I was rather stunned at plague marines getting all their upgrades for free now. That's a rather unbelievable number of points of upgrades now all given for free... Not sure if its just a little too much. Some competitive players out there are definitely going to try and see how far they can push this.

As many plague marines as we can field with full upgrades squeezed into 2000 points sound ... terrifying.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The points changes looks like mostly a step in the right direction. Not sure why they didn't touch Hail of Doom, or Harlequins, but maybe those will be addressed in the balance dataslate up today.

Even as a player who has a Death Guard army, I was rather stunned at plague marines getting all their upgrades for free now. That's a rather unbelievable number of points of upgrades now all given for free... Not sure if its just a little too much. Some competitive players out there are definitely going to try and see how far they can push this.

As many plague marines as we can field with full upgrades squeezed into 2000 points sound ... terrifying.

Seems like they really are trying to prepare the ground for Power Level in a future edition. I don't get why. The really annoying thing is how inconsistent it is. So Plague Marines, Tyranid Warriors and Infantry Squads get free upgrades now, but they're pretty much the only ones. Why those specifically? What's the balance reason why they need that and nobody else does? It leads to some really weird situations where you can have a 10-man PM unit with 2 plasma guns and a PF on the champion that costs less than a unit of 10 CSM Legionnaires with MoN, a single plasma gun and a PF. How does that make sense?

JakeSiren wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Real cool that after nerfing Daemons for no reason they've proceeded to lower the points of exactly no codex units. Games Workshop sucks cock.

Is this about the CP changes or something else? (I'm not disagreeing about Daemons needing buffs to remain relevant)

Wasn't even thinking about that but yeah Nephilim probably fethed Daemons harder than any other army. No, I'm talking about the last points update which hit the only tournament-viable builds Daemons had with barely any compensation. Nurglings are 25 fething points a model for crying out loud.

You can squeeze a ton more upgrade gear than just a power fist and 2 plasma guns into a plague marine squad. We are talking about easily 100 points or more worth of gear upgrades into a full 10 man squad.

Even a squad of just 5 plague marines can get 60 points of upgrades - now all free. (Champion takes plasma gun and power fist, 1 marine takes a blight launcher, 1 marine takes a melta gun/plasma gun, 1 takes great plague cleaver, 1 takes flail of corruption, 1 takes a mace of contagion and bubotic axe).

Either the precious gear points cost were completely out of wack and these gear upgrades were worth much less. Or now, a DG player who squeezes in 6 squads of plague marines is going to get hundreds of points worth of free upgrades. I do understand what they are trying to do. People keep on saying there is no reason to take plague marines over the DG terminators. But let's see how the pendulum swings the other way now. I am pretty sure there will be competitive DG players out there who are going to see how far they can push things with hundreds of free gear points upgrades.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The points changes looks like mostly a step in the right direction. Not sure why they didn't touch Hail of Doom, or Harlequins, but maybe those will be addressed in the balance dataslate up today.

Why/how would Hail of Doom be addressed in a points update?

It wouldn't. If Hail of Doom is getting addressed it will be in todays dataslate

Eldenfirefly wrote:
You can squeeze a ton more upgrade gear than just a power fist and 2 plasma guns into a plague marine squad. We are talking about easily 100 points or more worth of gear upgrades into a full 10 man squad.

I'm fully aware. I was simply trying to make as close a comparison as possible to show how stupid this change is. It's so omni-dumb there are multiple ways you can achieve the same result though

There was nothing stopping GW from dropping PMs to 19 and then dropping the weapons from 10 down to 5 or 5 down to 3. Strangely enough that would have allowed 210 point 4 of the best melee weapon builds, 210 point 4 of the best ranged weapon builds and all kinds of funky middling builds with a variety of weapons. Best part of that would no one sitting on bolter PMs would feel like a chump for owning them because at least they were cheaper if you just wanted cheaper.

Nah, the chump would still feel like a chump because now their plague marines are cheaper and now they need to buy more stuff to fit into the army, which may include more Plague Marines.

Anyone remember in 7th when AdMech armies got to take all their upgrades for free and how broken that was?

Yeah. Yeah...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Anyone remember in 7th when AdMech armies got to take all their upgrades for free and how broken that was?

Yeah. Yeah...

Well this time it's different because GW has changed and we're in the Bestest Edition Ever!!

I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

 Void__Dragon wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Real cool that after nerfing Daemons for no reason they've proceeded to lower the points of exactly no codex units. Games Workshop sucks cock.

Is this about the CP changes or something else? (I'm not disagreeing about Daemons needing buffs to remain relevant)

Wasn't even thinking about that but yeah Nephilim probably fethed Daemons harder than any other army. No, I'm talking about the last points update which hit the only tournament-viable builds Daemons had with barely any compensation. Nurglings are 25 fething points a model for crying out loud.

I hear you. Since the Codex dropped Daemons best units are mostly limited to Greater Daemons and Troops (some exceptions exist such as Flamers of Tzeentch and Beasts of Nurgle). With the increase in shots and attacks, troops just wilt away without being able to do anything, leaving only Greater Daemons to carry the army. It makes for bland list design. Even in casual games taking anything else just feels bad.

Doohicky wrote:
I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

A few other units have had the same treatment, e.g. Black Templar Primaris Crusaders get everything but one upgrade for free now.

Someone has noticed the Ork Kustom Jobs aren't costed out in their section (making them free) but that does look like an oversight. Or is it?

Doohicky wrote:
I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

Nah, it makes sense if GW wants people to use Plague Marines. Before the update PMs were garbage. At least now they can do something else than be very expensive action monkeys.

EightFoldPath wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

A few other units have had the same treatment, e.g. Black Templar Primaris Crusaders get everything but one upgrade for free now.

Someone has noticed the Ork Kustom Jobs aren't costed out in their section (making them free) but that does look like an oversight. Or is it?

Oh, the on-going problem with this format. Did they forget, is it free or is it no longer an option?

Seriously, its a digital document. Include everything and enter a 0 if its free. No ambiguity.

Voss wrote:

Seriously, its a digital document. Include everything and enter a 0. No ambiguity.

I do not object to that.

JakeSiren wrote:
I hear you. Since the Codex dropped Daemons best units are mostly limited to Greater Daemons and Troops (some exceptions exist such as Flamers of Tzeentch and Beasts of Nurgle). With the increase in shots and attacks, troops just wilt away without being able to do anything, leaving only Greater Daemons to carry the army. It makes for bland list design. Even in casual games taking anything else just feels bad.

Greater Daemons are only worth taking when you spend a CP to make them Exalted, and even then only Keepers of Secrets and one specifically fully kitted out exalted Lord of Change. And Be'lakor I guess.

Nephilim has now made it so that you only have six CP to start with, and now you have to use CP to buy even your warlord's first WT and relic. Which means that Exalted Lord of Change? Now costs 3 CP on his own to field. And now you can't actually take the CP tax to add a new detachment because you only start with like six fething CP and you want like three Keepers of Secrets with Exalted traits.

And what do Daemons get in the point update or the new field manual? Nothing. Not a goddamn thing.

Doohicky wrote:
I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

I know I won't use them on the principle of the gak dataslate. I don't care if everything is free, the unit itself is a goddamn mess and GW thinks they should be rewarded via going the PL route making all the upgrades free.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

Nah, it makes sense if GW wants people to use Plague Marines. Before the update PMs were garbage. At least now they can do something else than be very expensive action monkeys.

Agree. You kind of always want upgrades on your plague marines, and it's one of the few units where there aren't really any weapons that stand out above all others. No matter how you equip your dudes, you aren't going to end up with vastly more powerful unit and all upgrades worth taking were 10 points before anyways.

For all the other options, you would never, ever spend even a single point - icons, power fists and axes come to mind. Making those cost 0 points is perfectly fine.

In the end, it's effectively a drop of about 30 for any unit of 5 and a drop of 50 for any unit of 10, sprinkled with "your shooty unit can have melee weapons and your melee unit can bring meltas and flamers".
Which pretty much was what these guys needed - had they dropped the same amount of points of the plague marines themselves, they would have just been reduced to super-cheap 75 point objective campers with 0AP bolters.
In the end, the wargear isn't actually free. That unit with PF/plasma champion, plasma gunner, blight launcher, flail and greater cleaver isn't undercosted at 105 points, and it's absolutely not worth 165.

It's a rather decent solution to plague marines being too expensive with gear and not powerful enough without it.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

Nah, it makes sense if GW wants people to use Plague Marines. Before the update PMs were garbage. At least now they can do something else than be very expensive action monkeys.

Agree. You kind of always want upgrades on your plague marines, and it's one of the few units where there aren't really any weapons that stand out above all others. No matter how you equip your dudes, you aren't going to end up with vastly more powerful unit and all upgrades worth taking were 10 points before anyways.

For all the other options, you would never, ever spend even a single point - icons, power fists and axes come to mind. Making those cost 0 points is perfectly fine.

In the end, it's effectively a drop of about 30 for any unit of 5 and a drop of 50 for any unit of 10, sprinkled with "your shooty unit can have melee weapons and your melee unit can bring meltas and flamers".
Which pretty much was what these guys needed - had they dropped the same amount of points of the plague marines themselves, they would have just been reduced to super-cheap 75 point objective campers with 0AP bolters.
In the end, the wargear isn't actually free. That unit with PF/plasma champion, plasma gunner, blight launcher, flail and greater cleaver isn't undercosted at 105 points, and it's absolutely not worth 165.

It's a rather decent solution to plague marines being too expensive with gear and not powerful enough without it.

Barebones Plague Marines UP? They need a price reduction. They didn't get that.

Taking an upgrade is mandatory? The mandatory upgrades needed a price increase. They didn't get that.

The remaining upgrades aren't worth it? They needed a price decrease. They got that.

So GW's solution made two problems worse and solved one, that is gak design. This would only be okay in Dawn of War or if the game was only played on Tabletop Simulator.

I think you didn't understand my post.

Barebone plague marines don't need to be a thing, they aren't rank and file dorks like intercessors or guardsmen but an elite unit like vanguard veterans, chosen or nobz.
They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

There's a very good game-related reason why making all their upgrades free is a terrible idea:

There's no reason to never take the absolute best weapons possible, and every upgrade possible. You lose nothing by doing so. You're not making a choice, as you're not paying for anything, so you might as well take the best combo of everything. It is inherently imbalanced, as it means that taking anything that isn't the best possible combo is worthless, as you're paying the same points anyway.

It's transposing the inherent imbalance of Power Levels into the Points system. Doesn't matter what unit it applies to, or how much "better" it makes Plague Marines. It's a bad way to design an upgrade system, whether it's stinky Marines, Guardsmen or Tyranid Warriors.

Again I go back to 7th Ed, where AdMech got all their upgrades for free. This was very much considered one of the worst formation rules in the game. Another one gave Marines all their transports for free. That was worse.

 Jidmah wrote:
I think you didn't understand my post.

Barebone plague marines don't need to be a thing, they aren't rank and file dorks like intercessors or guardsmen but an elite unit like vanguard veterans, chosen or nobz.

Vanguard Veterans with chainswords and Nobz with choppas should be viable as well. Look at me, I'm such a radical. Plague Marines are rank and file dorks by the way and Infantry Squads have the exact same rules for equipping them, are you going to tell me those aren't rank and file dorks either?

They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

Pts-efficiency is relative, that's why Harlequins and Custodes were good at the start of 9th, their points stayed mostly the same while the points costs of everyone else rose. If the points cost of Plague Marines with plasma guns go down while the points cost of Plague Marines with bolters stay the same the pts-efficiency ratio between the two options changes.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

They work if you have the right gear equipped, otherwise they don't. Miniatures are part of the game. Playing with paper cutouts or on Tabletop Simulator is a bad replacement and proxies can be complicated, especially with the wonky 9th ed rules for equipping a squad.

 Jidmah wrote:
I think you didn't understand my post.

Barebone plague marines don't need to be a thing, they aren't rank and file dorks like intercessors or guardsmen but an elite unit like vanguard veterans, chosen or nobz.
They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

Plague Marines still don't work because of the fething garbage "build only what's in the kit" unit entry. They could be 10 points per model and I still won't use them on that principle.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I think you didn't understand my post.

Barebone plague marines don't need to be a thing, they aren't rank and file dorks like intercessors or guardsmen but an elite unit like vanguard veterans, chosen or nobz.

Vanguard Veterans with chainswords and Nobz with choppas should be viable as well. Look at me, I'm such a radical. Plague Marines are rank and file dorks by the way and Infantry Squads have the exact same rules for equipping them, are you going to tell me those aren't rank and file dorks either?

Actually PM are NOT just rank and file, they are like most cultmarines something in between an elite unit and a file unit.

They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

Pts-efficiency is relative, that's why Harlequins and Custodes were good at the start of 9th, their points stayed mostly the same while the points costs of everyone else rose. If the points cost of Plague Marines with plasma guns go down while the points cost of Plague Marines with bolters stay the same the pts-efficiency ratio between the two options changes.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

They work if you have the right gear equipped, otherwise they don't. Miniatures are part of the game. Playing with paper cutouts or on Tabletop Simulator is a bad replacement and proxies can be complicated, especially with the wonky 9th ed rules for equipping a squad.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I think you didn't understand my post.

Barebone plague marines don't need to be a thing, they aren't rank and file dorks like intercessors or guardsmen but an elite unit like vanguard veterans, chosen or nobz.
They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

Plague Marines still don't work because of the fething garbage "build only what's in the kit" unit entry. They could be 10 points per model and I still won't use them on that principle.

The fact that you don't like how their wargear is handled doesn't mean they don't work.

Ya'll are talking past each other. They are saying that if they only "work" in the context that you absolutely have to take whatever the meta best kit at the time and that without special weapons they are still bad for their points then that's not really a healthy place for the datasheet to be in. And I really don't see how that could be argued, by the way? If they're pointed in the context that you have to take the special weapons to be points efficient then why even have the option to forego the special weapons at all? Why not try lower the base cost of PM and then make the upgrades cost about what a full squad with those upgrades would cost now?

It's a gamey solution that rubs some people the wrong way. It might "work" from a game balance standpoint by making the unit viable sure, but don't act like people can't be unhappy with the way GW did it lol.

A lot of units "work" only if they take a specific loadout.

From the armies/units I play I can make an example, SW wolf guards. They can have a plethora of combinations and they can be either good/viable or absolute trash. Unlike plague marines their best build is not available out the box, kitbashing is required. But no one says they don't work or there's a problem with them or their kit. TWC were either OP or mediocre in 7th depending on their gear. Etc...

Always been like that for units with multiple loadouts. And the obvious solution has always been to magnetize such models. Or don't play strictly WYSIWYG.

What I don't understand with PM is GW had so many ways to nudge them in the direction they wanted. They chose the stupidest one.

If PM are too expensive you drop the base price and keep the equipment the same. If you want to encourage more PM units with upgraded equipment you can lower the equipment cost. In either of these scenarios you're giving players the choice as to how they want to use the unit. Lowering the base cost encourages more min-maxing and lowering equipment costs encourages players to take upgrades to get the most out of the more expensive PM models. Making equipment free completely removes that choice and has been proven to be a stupid idea in previous editions. It also leads to really weird and stupid scenarios like PM being cheaper than CSM Nurgle Legionnaires.

I'm not convinced lowering the cost of PM would just end up with them being 5-man objective campers either. PM with shooting upgrades are fine as a Troops unit and adding those upgrades would still make sense even if you were paying for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
A lot of units "work" only if they take a specific loadout.

Always been like that for units with multiple loadouts. And the obvious solution has always been to magnetize such models. Or don't play strictly WYSIWYG.

Have you tried magnetizing Plague Marines? Even if what you say is true, it doesn't apply to the units that GW have done this to. PM used to have a melee-centric build as well as a shooting-centric build, for example. The same applied to CSM Chosen and Terminators before this idiotic policy.

 Blackie wrote:
A lot of units "work" only if they take a specific loadout.

And this is something to be happy about or aspire to?

Stop accepting mediocrity from these cock suckers lmfao.

And there's a difference between "The sword is better than the hammer on NDKs right now" and "this gun that is just a straight upgrade over the base bolter now costs nothing meaning there is literally no reason to ever take the bolter".

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ya'll are talking past each other. They are saying that if they only "work" in the context that you absolutely have to take whatever the meta best kit at the time and that without special weapons they are still bad for their points then that's not really a healthy place for the datasheet to be in. And I really don't see how that could be argued, by the way? If they're pointed in the context that you have to take the special weapons to be points efficient then why even have the option to forego the special weapons at all? Why not try lower the base cost of PM and then make the upgrades cost about what a full squad with those upgrades would cost now?

It's a gamey solution that rubs some people the wrong way. It might "work" from a game balance standpoint by making the unit viable sure, but don't act like people can't be unhappy with the way GW did it lol.

Then people would take min sized barebone cheap obsec action doers.

"Sepsis cohorts number around seven hundred Plague Marines"

"The mainstay of Death Guard vectoriums, Plague Marines excel in short-ranged firefights and relentless assaults that grind the enemy down"

Sounds like rank and file dorks to me.

 Blackie wrote:
A lot of units "work" only if they take a specific loadout... SW wolf guards. They can have a plethora of combinations and they can be either good/viable or absolute trash.

That's not a good thing and should apply to as few units as possible.

tneva82 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ya'll are talking past each other. They are saying that if they only "work" in the context that you absolutely have to take whatever the meta best kit at the time and that without special weapons they are still bad for their points then that's not really a healthy place for the datasheet to be in. And I really don't see how that could be argued, by the way? If they're pointed in the context that you have to take the special weapons to be points efficient then why even have the option to forego the special weapons at all? Why not try lower the base cost of PM and then make the upgrades cost about what a full squad with those upgrades would cost now?

It's a gamey solution that rubs some people the wrong way. It might "work" from a game balance standpoint by making the unit viable sure, but don't act like people can't be unhappy with the way GW did it lol.

Then people would take min sized barebone cheap obsec action doers.

Would they? I'm not convinced. Assuming we kept PM at their current cost, there exists a cost for each upgrade that makes it desirable while still making it an option rather than de facto compulsory. That cost is likely somewhere between the old cost and 0. Discovering a suitable cost is what playtesting is for.

Sadly GW's stupid "no model no rules" policy means things like having one unit entry allowing for multiple approaches doesn't work now. There's no more option to take melee PM, or even to specialise with dual Blight Launcher. Allowing those kind of options back in would also help diversify the unit role and create less of a no-brainer choice.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I think you didn't understand my post.

Barebone plague marines don't need to be a thing, they aren't rank and file dorks like intercessors or guardsmen but an elite unit like vanguard veterans, chosen or nobz.

Vanguard Veterans with chainswords and Nobz with choppas should be viable as well. Look at me, I'm such a radical.

Not a radical, just missing the point. People also never ran barebones devastator squads or havocs(when it was still possible) and expected them to be viable either. For over a decade, the role of plague marines was to be a durable special weapon squad.

Anyways, the only reason to run barebone plague marine squads is to have them as cheap troops tax. In Codex: Plague Marines, their signature unit should absolutely not be pure tax.

Plague Marines are rank and file dorks by the way and Infantry Squads have the exact same rules for equipping them, are you going to tell me those aren't rank and file dorks either?

Sorry, I don't know how to respond to this without making insults about your intelligence. For your sake, I'll just assume "exact same rules" is you just not remembering things quite right and kindly ask you to once more read both datasheets carefully. I'm sure you'll easily spot differences between the two.

They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

Pts-efficiency is relative, that's why Harlequins and Custodes were good at the start of 9th, their points stayed mostly the same while the points costs of everyone else rose. If the points cost of Plague Marines with plasma guns go down while the points cost of Plague Marines with bolters stay the same the pts-efficiency ratio between the two options changes.

Wrong again. Points efficiency isn't relative at all, efficiency is how many kills a unit does per per point, or if they survive as much shooting as they did before. Neither went down.

You're also wrong about the relation other armies. The biggest threats to DG (tau, eldar, nids) went up in points, which means - according to your own logic - bolter marines got better in relation.

The third thing you are wrong about is that plague marines with bolters stayed the same - the sigil now became free as well, which means your bolter marines now wield the same titan-killing power as imperial guardsmen, at no extra cost.

Last, but not least, you don't field single models, you field units. The humble bolter plague marine still has a place in units with maxed plasma guns and blight launchers, as none of the melee weapons allow you to shoot. Especially when you pair them with a tallyman or lord, use the virulent rounds stratagem to score Fleeing Vectors, want some extra shots at 24" or just need a backfield objective campers, having some extra bolter shots instead of picking your nose all game with a greater plague cleaver has some merit.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

They work if you have the right gear equipped, otherwise they don't. Miniatures are part of the game. Playing with paper cutouts or on Tabletop Simulator is a bad replacement and proxies can be complicated, especially with the wonky 9th ed rules for equipping a squad.

It's cute of you to imply that I don't actually have the models. I'll let you know that I actually collected every single one of the new plague marine sculpts that GW has made, and out of the 28 exactly half don't even have the option to be a barebone plague marine. In fact, there isn't a single champion model which can be equipped with just a bolter, the best you can do is bolter and plague sword. Not a single one of the boxes ever had the option to build a barebones unit. The out of print DI unit comes closest but still has a powerfist, plague sword and a plasma gunner. So unless you somehow cut off all those options and replaced them with bolters, you should have the models somewhere.

Their gear also doesn't need to be optimized at all. Sure, there are already lists of optimal load-outs floating around, but they are still extremely close in efficiency most similar load-outs. So what if you don't have ton of flails and cleavers? Just run them with powefist, melta, icon and spitter. They'll do well enough. No plasma guns? Just slap some nurgle iconography from another kit or your 3D printer onto one of your marines and call it a sigil and keep enjoying your bolter hit squad.
Sure, if you are trying to win GTs, your army has to change - but that's the game you chose to play, right?

Personally, I'm stoked for this update especially because of the model issue - I can now run my entire collection with all those silly wargear options without getting shot off the board because my wounds per points were too low.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ya'll are talking past each other. They are saying that if they only "work" in the context that you absolutely have to take whatever the meta best kit at the time and that without special weapons they are still bad for their points then that's not really a healthy place for the datasheet to be in. And I really don't see how that could be argued, by the way? If they're pointed in the context that you have to take the special weapons to be points efficient then why even have the option to forego the special weapons at all? Why not try lower the base cost of PM and then make the upgrades cost about what a full squad with those upgrades would cost now?

It's a gamey solution that rubs some people the wrong way. It might "work" from a game balance standpoint by making the unit viable sure, but don't act like people can't be unhappy with the way GW did it lol.

You criticism doesn't really apply since all the options except for the plasma pistol and the flamer equivalent (both useless across all armies) were the same amount of points before anyways.

A plasma gun still costs the same as a melta, a heavy flamer or a power fist. This didn't change at all. You just didn't get a point drop on pure tax units.

They also don't need a specific load-out to work, this is a gross misrepresentation of what I said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand with PM is GW had so many ways to nudge them in the direction they wanted. They chose the stupidest one.

If PM are too expensive you drop the base price and keep the equipment the same. If you want to encourage more PM units with upgraded equipment you can lower the equipment cost. In either of these scenarios you're giving players the choice as to how they want to use the unit. Lowering the base cost encourages more min-maxing and lowering equipment costs encourages players to take upgrades to get the most out of the more expensive PM models. Making equipment free completely removes that choice and has been proven to be a stupid idea in previous editions. It also leads to really weird and stupid scenarios like PM being cheaper than CSM Nurgle Legionnaires.

I'm not convinced lowering the cost of PM would just end up with them being 5-man objective campers either. PM with shooting upgrades are fine as a Troops unit and adding those upgrades would still make sense even if you were paying for them.

If you think DG wouldn't just have spammed those 75 point plague marine units, you understand the game even less than GW's designers do.

Not to mention people completely losing their gak over 15 points plague marines.

 Blackie wrote:
A lot of units "work" only if they take a specific loadout.

Always been like that for units with multiple loadouts. And the obvious solution has always been to magnetize such models. Or don't play strictly WYSIWYG.

Have you tried magnetizing Plague Marines? Even if what you say is true, it doesn't apply to the units that GW have done this to. PM used to have a melee-centric build as well as a shooting-centric build, for example. The same applied to CSM Chosen and Terminators before this idiotic policy.

Yeah, there are three (or four? Not sure on the melta marine from the big kit) plague marines you can magnetize. All others are either mono-pose or are a choice between bolter and special weapon. In reality you just build each of the special weapon dudes and switch bolter marines from DI/ETB in or out. Supply of those is drying up though, so it absolutely will be a problem for future players unless they buy that super expensive box of 7 and build them all into bolter marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
Would they? I'm not convinced. Assuming we kept PM at their current cost, there exists a cost for each upgrade that makes it desirable while still making it an option rather than de facto compulsory. That cost is likely somewhere between the old cost and 0. Discovering a suitable cost is what playtesting is for.

Sadly GW's stupid "no model no rules" policy means things like having one unit entry allowing for multiple approaches doesn't work now. There's no more option to take melee PM, or even to specialise with dual Blight Launcher. Allowing those kind of options back in would also help diversify the unit role and create less of a no-brainer choice.

Your suggestion puts plague marines at 75-125 points. 75 points for 5 2W/3+/T5/DR/AoC bodies is too cheap, no matter how you put it.
GW's solution dodges that bullet by putting them at 105 points minimum and reduce the cost of maxing out options to opportunity cost - I have yet to see proof of any loadout that would be too good at 105/210 points.

Full melee squads are still possible, by the way - 2 flails, 2 cleavers, 2 maces, 2 Axes, Icon and PF Champion. Especially with the massive point drops on those, they are probably better than ever before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vict0988 wrote:
"Sepsis cohorts number around seven hundred Plague Marines"

"The mainstay of Death Guard vectoriums, Plague Marines excel in short-ranged firefights and relentless assaults that grind the enemy down"

Sounds like rank and file dorks to me.

Well, don't stop reading there!

"For all their physical and spiritual corruption, the Plague Marines of the Death Guard are highly drilled, superhuman warriors. They remain Mortarion's perfect infantrymen, tactically astute and well-equipped combatants, whose incredible strength combines with an impressive array of hideous weapons to render them lethal at mid-to-close ranges."

It then goes on for a full paragraph describing why they don't exclusively use boltguns.

Wait, there is more:
"Since then, many Heretic Astartes have dedicated themselves to Nurgle, though few achieve the vaunted ranks of the Death Guard. Those who truly wish to join this most foetid of cadres must first swear loyalty to the Primarch Mortarion -- only then will Nurgle bestow upon them the corrupting ague that created the Plague Marines."

Nice trying to misrepresent the lore by cherry-picking one sentence though. Just because Mortarion treats his Death Guard as expendable, doesn't mean that they aren't the chosen of nurgle.

To quote Daedalus "Time will tell" whether Plague Marines become overbearing with their new free loadouts.

However, I did play Plague Marines in Crusade using Power Levels and as people may know the loadouts there are technically just part of the general cost. They are(last time I checked) around power level 6 which is around 120 points(so 15 more points than barebone). So I of course decked them out with all the bling. If I saw something I could add to a squad I did.

Did they overperform? No, not really. Most of them died because most enemies have ranged fire and Plague Marines aren't actually known for speed and tend to be very melee oriented in their builds. So I remain skeptical that this was a bad move. At least with this they have a slight threat aura when capping an objective, but they continue to remain weak to high strength fire and enemy units that have higher movement than they.

I know people think the core Plague Marine model cost should have been lowered, but as has been mentioned here it would just make them spammable action monkeys which is not good for the game. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have 13-14 point Plague Marines, but the rest of you who have to face them would utterly loathe it.

So basically they should just just cut plague marine options, give em all the fancy gubbins by default and theyd have achieved this without the weirdness?

I don't think it much matters whether they're good or bad with free weapons. The weapons shouldn't be free.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think it much matters whether they're good or bad with free weapons. The weapons shouldn't be free.

*Points to hundreds of other weapons being free across all other codices*

I think its safe to say making Plague Marines cheaper than Tactical Marines/Legionaires would be a weird choice.

I think there's an argument they could have tried making Plague Marines 19/20 points - and making most of the special weapons 5 points cheaper. (So Belchers/Plasma Pistols/axes free, plasma/blight launchers/flails etc 5 points etc). But I think this method works too.

I guess we'll see if people start slowly advancing 60~ blinged out Plague Marines down the table.

 Jidmah wrote:
*Points to hundreds of other weapons being free across all other codices*

Yes. And as I already mentioned, that's also bad.

I'm not singling out Plague Marines here. The fact that all upgrades in Guard squads is terrible. That there are no costs outside of venom cannons in Tyranid Warrior squads is horrendous. This crap is spreading, and its getting worse.

We'll don't I now look foolish for not taking power fists and icons in all of my Plague Marine units.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think it much matters whether they're good or bad with free weapons. The weapons shouldn't be free.

But… they came with the model so in a sense, the consumer who is GW’s target hobbyist already paid for them…

Lately I have had some downtime and have tried to adapt my collection to current rules. Four completely different factions or five if inquisition sets apart from guard as imperium generally. I was able to fathom smallish eldar and og marines forces. Wow… for all the layers of stuff, traits and relics and upgrade limitations on stuff all “free” unless paid for using a separate cp economy instead of points, I got the feeling that a thirteen year old kid thought that all of the old stuff could have been done better, so s/he took some ideas from those old rules and reinvented them in a more proprietary fashion, without the focus on improvement but, as with a child, expression of ego. Yes, the armies were able to come together. I like the void dude units I think, and have some old old models that fit well enough to let me do something with that for example. But… the pl points relation was something odd, and frankly I just wish that they would do the best with the least rather than try to sell the most for meh.

 Jidmah wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think it much matters whether they're good or bad with free weapons. The weapons shouldn't be free.

*Points to hundreds of other weapons being free across all other codices*

I have learnt some players are weirdly attached to the idea of everything having a points cost. The idea of Guard squads having free gear was an old one (because they aren't penal conscripts) and it was passionately objected to because 'you can't have free weapons'. Well you clearly can if their base unit is 'overcosted'. The argument of having nominal costs for weapons and higher core costs is a kind of half way house fix but is really railroading the player. If plasma guns are 2 points and lesser weapons 1 point, you are still going to be building optimally.

I can say from a game design point of view working with optimal/likely builds it is far easier to attempt to balance things.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
*Points to hundreds of other weapons being free across all other codices*

Yes. And as I already mentioned, that's also bad.

I'm not singling out Plague Marines here. The fact that all upgrades in Guard squads is terrible. That there are no costs outside of venom cannons in Tyranid Warrior squads is horrendous. This crap is spreading, and its getting worse.

Do you actually have reason to be mad about plague marines in specific, or is this a "on principle" thing? Because units aren't exactly paying for their choppas, bolt pistols or gauss reapers either.

The issue with warriors (and potentially guard) seems to be that some options eclipse all others but were made to cost the same anyways. For plague marines, all options already had the same cost before and after the update and you can't just buy the best option on every member of the squad and ignore all others.

Here is a very in-depth analysis of plague marine weapon load-outs, and the result is essentially that the squad will be good at whatever specialize it in. Each specialization has strengths and weaknesses - even the two best options of each category, the blight launcher and plague flail aren't auto-picks.


I'm with you that better weapons should cost more points than worse ones, but this simply isn't the case here. The DG codex was rather well written in that regard.

 Jidmah wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
What I don't understand with PM is GW had so many ways to nudge them in the direction they wanted. They chose the stupidest one.

If PM are too expensive you drop the base price and keep the equipment the same. If you want to encourage more PM units with upgraded equipment you can lower the equipment cost. In either of these scenarios you're giving players the choice as to how they want to use the unit. Lowering the base cost encourages more min-maxing and lowering equipment costs encourages players to take upgrades to get the most out of the more expensive PM models. Making equipment free completely removes that choice and has been proven to be a stupid idea in previous editions. It also leads to really weird and stupid scenarios like PM being cheaper than CSM Nurgle Legionnaires.

I'm not convinced lowering the cost of PM would just end up with them being 5-man objective campers either. PM with shooting upgrades are fine as a Troops unit and adding those upgrades would still make sense even if you were paying for them.

If you think DG wouldn't just have spammed those 75 point plague marine units, you understand the game even less than GW's designers do.

Not to mention people completely losing their gak over 15 points plague marines..

Can you point to any points cost I actually suggested in my post? Before you accuse people of not understanding something maybe read it properly first. It's perfectly possible to tweak the points of both PM and their equipment to allow players to make choices, where each has its merits over the other, without doing what GW did. The key is the relative values of the PM and the equipment. That relationship needs playtesting to figure out, which is why I never suggested a specific cost. No idea where you got 15 points from, but keep plugging away at those random insults, I guess.

Ah, I guess this isn't super clear to people who don't play DG:
The "best" ranged unit loadout had five marines with 2x plasma 1x BL and was 135 points before the change, it's now 105. That's a points drop of 30 points, which would result in a 75 points unit, according to your suggestion of "drop the base price and keep equipment the same"

I put "best" in quotes, because the unit still wasn't taken since adding points meant you are less efficient at surviving, one of the most important qualities of a DG unit. You have to keep in mind that plague marines are always in competition with two of the best terminator units in the game. By just being cheap bodies with bolters they will never be a match.

So no, for most upgrades, no matter how cheap you make them, simply not taking that upgrade will always be the right option.

For this specific datasheet in this specific codex, free upgrades is the superior solution to any combination of model and equipment point costs because it takes survivability out of the equation for better internal balance.
And the choices are still there - some stratagems and equipments require bolters or plague knives to work, melee weapons can't shoot, plasma, melta and flamers have different effective ranges and you have more options than marines in the squad, so you can't just take everything. At the very least you'll have to decide if you want to have long-range, short range, melee or jack-of-all-trades squad.

LOL what a clown ass post. Nobody cares about the Strats for Bolters or Plague Knives when you can just swap the Plague Knives for already better weapons (thus saving CP) and the fact you can just save the Bolters-Are-Plague-Weapons for Blightlords.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
LOL what a clown ass post. Nobody cares about the Strats for Bolters or Plague Knives when you can just swap the Plague Knives for already better weapons (thus saving CP) and the fact you can just save the Bolters-Are-Plague-Weapons for Blightlords.

You're trading your plague knives away? Cool story, really shows how well-versed you are with the death guard's rules. You sure you aren't working with GW?

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I have learnt some players are weirdly attached to the idea of everything having a points cost. The idea of Guard squads having free gear was an old one (because they aren't penal conscripts) and it was passionately objected to because 'you can't have free weapons'. Well you clearly can if their base unit is 'overcosted'. The argument of having nominal costs for weapons and higher core costs is a kind of half way house fix but is really railroading the player. If plasma guns are 2 points and lesser weapons 1 point, you are still going to be building optimally.

But you still have to pay for it.

If things are free, then it assumes that everything is of equal value, which we know isn't true.

Then, when you try to fix an overpowered unit that is overpowered because of one specific combo (READ: Tyranid Warriors with 2 Boneswords/Deathspitter) by increasing the cost of the unit, rather than adding points values to the overly effective weapons, you create further imbalance as now the lesser combos cost even more for the same mediocre abilities, further incentivising you to take the most powerful combo anyway.

 Jidmah wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
*Points to hundreds of other weapons being free across all other codices*

Yes. And as I already mentioned, that's also bad.

I'm not singling out Plague Marines here. The fact that all upgrades in Guard squads is terrible. That there are no costs outside of venom cannons in Tyranid Warrior squads is horrendous. This crap is spreading, and its getting worse.

Do you actually have reason to be mad about plague marines in specific, or is this a "on principle" thing? Because units aren't exactly paying for their choppas, bolt pistols or gauss reapers either.

Spoiler:

The issue with warriors (and potentially guard) seems to be that some options eclipse all others but were made to cost the same anyways. For plague marines, all options already had the same cost before and after the update and you can't just buy the best option on every member of the squad and ignore all others.

Here is a very in-depth analysis of plague marine weapon load-outs, and the result is essentially that the squad will be good at whatever specialize it in. Each specialization has strengths and weaknesses - even the two best options of each category, the blight launcher and plague flail aren't auto-picks.
[spoiler]

I'm with you that better weapons should cost more points than worse ones, but this simply isn't the case here. The DG codex was rather well written in that regard.[/spoiler]

If you paid attention to HBMC, you'd know this is 100% an on principle thing -- he absolutely has said the same thing about Tyranid Warriors where presumably his warriors would benefit from free weapons. And sorry, but comparing free gauss reapers/choppas/bolt pistols to free special weapons is just so incredibly dishonest, I don't know why I'm engaging. And yeah, that video is pretty dumb. You talked earlier about people insulting your intelligence, but you're very much insulting others' intelligence if you try to deny that some weapons are better than others in 95% of situations.

 Jidmah wrote:
Ah, I guess this isn't super clear to people who don't play DG:
The "best" ranged unit loadout had five marines with 2x plasma 1x BL and was 135 points before the change, it's now 105. That's a points drop of 30 points, which would result in a 75 points unit, according to your suggestion of "drop the base price and keep equipment the same".

My most common opponent is DG. I understand how they work just fine. I also understand there probably aren't enough PM showing up in "good" DG armies, so there probably needs to be something done about that. AoC may help out longer term, though I'm not convinced.

You're still projecting your own ideas here though, not actually taking what I said into account. My suggestion never said, nor implied, "make PM units 75 points base". There are a lot of options between the current 105-point, bare bones unit and the proposed 105-point take-everything unit.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
*Points to hundreds of other weapons being free across all other codices*

Yes. And as I already mentioned, that's also bad.

I'm not singling out Plague Marines here. The fact that all upgrades in Guard squads is terrible. That there are no costs outside of venom cannons in Tyranid Warrior squads is horrendous. This crap is spreading, and its getting worse.

Do you actually have reason to be mad about plague marines in specific, or is this a "on principle" thing? Because units aren't exactly paying for their choppas, bolt pistols or gauss reapers either.

Spoiler:

The issue with warriors (and potentially guard) seems to be that some options eclipse all others but were made to cost the same anyways. For plague marines, all options already had the same cost before and after the update and you can't just buy the best option on every member of the squad and ignore all others.

Here is a very in-depth analysis of plague marine weapon load-outs, and the result is essentially that the squad will be good at whatever specialize it in. Each specialization has strengths and weaknesses - even the two best options of each category, the blight launcher and plague flail aren't auto-picks.
[spoiler]

I'm with you that better weapons should cost more points than worse ones, but this simply isn't the case here. The DG codex was rather well written in that regard.[/spoiler]

If you paid attention to HBMC, you'd know this is 100% an on principle thing -- he absolutely has said the same thing about Tyranid Warriors where presumably his warriors would benefit from free weapons. And sorry, but comparing free gauss reapers/choppas/bolt pistols to free special weapons is just so incredibly dishonest, I don't know why I'm engaging. And yeah, that video is pretty dumb. You talked earlier about people insulting your intelligence, but you're very much insulting others' intelligence if you try to deny that some weapons are better than others in 95% of situations.

You don't understand though! There's a Strat for Plague Knives!

 Jidmah wrote:

Plague Marines are rank and file dorks by the way and Infantry Squads have the exact same rules for equipping them, are you going to tell me those aren't rank and file dorks either?

Sorry, I don't know how to respond to this without making insults about your intelligence. For your sake, I'll just assume "exact same rules" is you just not remembering things quite right and kindly ask you to once more read both datasheets carefully. I'm sure you'll easily spot differences between the two.

Neither pay to upgrade their boltguns to plasma guns, that was the similarity I was pointing out.

They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

Pts-efficiency is relative, that's why Harlequins and Custodes were good at the start of 9th, their points stayed mostly the same while the points costs of everyone else rose. If the points cost of Plague Marines with plasma guns go down while the points cost of Plague Marines with bolters stay the same the pts-efficiency ratio between the two options changes.

Wrong again. Points efficiency isn't relative at all, efficiency is how many kills a unit does per per point, or if they survive as much shooting as they did before. Neither went down.

You're also wrong about the relation other armies. The biggest threats to DG (tau, eldar, nids) went up in points, which means - according to your own logic - bolter marines got better in relation.

The third thing you are wrong about is that plague marines with bolters stayed the same - the sigil now became free as well, which means your bolter marines now wield the same titan-killing power as imperial guardsmen, at no extra cost.

Last, but not least, you don't field single models, you field units. The humble bolter plague marine still has a place in units with maxed plasma guns and blight launchers, as none of the melee weapons allow you to shoot. Especially when you pair them with a tallyman or lord, use the virulent rounds stratagem to score Fleeing Vectors, want some extra shots at 24" or just need a backfield objective campers, having some extra bolter shots instead of picking your nose all game with a greater plague cleaver has some merit.

Bolter Plague Marines got better, armed to the teef Plague Marines got a lot better. The sigil of decay is something you have to model as well isn't it? Have some compassion for Timmy who got started 12 months ago (or Lord Damocles).

There must be some of the melee weapons worth taking previously right, why didn't people just always take bolters previously if the melee weapons were all worth 0 pts? Why did people take plasmas if they were worth 0 pts? You are defending gak and doing a gak job of it.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

They work if you have the right gear equipped, otherwise they don't. Miniatures are part of the game. Playing with paper cutouts or on Tabletop Simulator is a bad replacement and proxies can be complicated, especially with the wonky 9th ed rules for equipping a squad.

It's cute of you to imply that I don't actually have the models.

I don't have Death Guard models, I play Tabletop Simulator. I didn't imply gak about you, I have no clue about your collection. I don't have money for the Silent King at the moment and I think it'd be very hard to make a competitive Necrons list without him, I don't think that's okay. I don't think it would be okay for Necrons to have to rely on having at least 80 Warriors either, because that would be bad for all the people that do not own 80 Warriors, whether I have 80 Warriors is irrelevant.

Nice trying to misrepresent the lore by cherry-picking one sentence though. Just because Mortarion treats his Death Guard as expendable, doesn't mean that they aren't the chosen of nurgle.

Know what the actual chosen of Nurgle are? Terminators, you know those that come with all power weapons instead of bolters and plague knives.

"Blightlord Terminators are relentless and elite Death Guard bound forever to mutated suits of Cataphractii armour."

Plague Marines and Blightlord Terminators are not equally elite, that's all I'm saying. I know that there is a difference between an Imperial Guardsman and a Plague Marine, but elite Guardsmen are Veterans and elite Death Guard are Blightlord Terminators. This is not a fething hot take. Damn.

 jeff white wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think it much matters whether they're good or bad with free weapons. The weapons shouldn't be free.

But… they came with the model so in a sense, the consumer who is GW’s target hobbyist already paid for them…

Not if they got them second-hand or you used/sold/gifted away the bits or got them painted without asking for the bits. These are all valid ways to collect an army and play the game. If your buddy would like some bits that you aren't using why not let him have it? Except because GW is a capricious master and you have to be ready to rip your models apart on command.

 Jidmah wrote:
Do you actually have reason to be mad about plague marines in specific, or is this a "on principle" thing?

My converted Necron HQ with hyperphase swords and voidblades are useless, I am not a Death Guard player, I am just making guesses when it comes to what appropriate costs would look like for them. My Warriors, Immortals, Triarch Praetorians and Lychguard are lousy half the time because GW doesn't make an effort to get points close enough that I can feel good about the loadout I have on them. Sometimes an upgrade really should cost 0 pts, like when Immortal tesla used to be 2 pts the internal balance of the datasheet was worse than it is now at 0 pts. Right now I can feel good about my tesla and my gauss Immortals, because the price is pretty right, last edition tesla should have costed extra points but it didn't. I happen to be in luck with my Triarch Praetorians and Lychguard right now because I happen to have picked the right wargear choice 8 years ago, but more than half of Necron players are probably on the unlucky side of that equation at the moment. Even just 1 pt extra to get what is close to an auto-upgrade would be good even if the ideal cost is 10 extra pts. This fethed-up powerlevelization is messing with my faction right now and you and every power level player is making it less likely that GW will fix their gak. I can fix the costs of Lords and Overlords in a minute. from:

Base 85
Voidscythe +10
Staff of light +0
Warscythe +0
Voidblade +0
Hyperphase sword +0
Hyperphase glaive +0

Base 65
Staff of light +0
Warscythe +0
Voidblade +0
Hyperphase sword +0

to:

Base 80
Voidscythe +15
Staff of light +5
Warscythe +5
Voidblade +0
Hyperphase sword +0
Hyperphase glaive +5

Base 60
Staff of light +5
Warscythe +4
Voidblade +1
Hyperphase sword +0

Slipspace wrote:
You're still projecting your own ideas here though, not actually taking what I said into account. My suggestion never said, nor implied, "make PM units 75 points base". There are a lot of options between the current 105-point, bare bones unit and the proposed 105-point take-everything unit.

What would that solution be?

One thing people seem to be doing is asserting that the value of a power fist, blight launcher, etc was truly worth 10 points when it's more like they should have been 5 points before now. I get a nice bolter, a sorcerer, and all is dust for the same base price. We could probably debate the merits of -1D on a W2 model for a while so I won't bother with that.

And if weapons were 5 points they still probably wouldn't beat out the rest of the codex, because 2+ W3 -1D is a lot more difficult to tackle than 3+ W2 -1D.

So what is something DG struggle with? Ranged output, right? If you made PMs 2 or 3 points cheaper would that encourage taking plasma? Probably not. Plasma on 22 to 26 point models necessitates a baby sitter, which is even more cost. If Plasma was free people would probably take it, but then you strand all the other weapon options so they need to be free as well.

This doesn't mean there isn't choice. Some people will opt for plasma and rerolls. Others might decide Terminus Est melta is the way to go. The accompanying melee weapons each have enough distinction that you can make a case for taking a variety.

Most of the options for the Helbrute are free and the paid ones are mostly yuck, but that doesn't stop me from having different viable loadouts.

Any time a change is made that makes any specific model that has been glued together by a person on dakka worse, that person will rage into the night, because they have built *exactly* 2000 points worth of that army and will never, EVER have extra models with different loadouts, and it would be ANTI-CONSUMER to suggest that their particular 2000 point build might not be optimal for eternity.

Between the new points drops and the new balance sheet I've already seen yt videos claiming that necrons are now 'broken' which seems to mean they may have a close to 50% chance of winning more often.

As is I have to switch from an Indy dynasty to Szarekhan because having undying legion in both mode on all the time is clearly too good to pass up.

Tyel wrote:
I think its safe to say making Plague Marines cheaper than Tactical Marines/Legionaires would be a weird choice.

I think there's an argument they could have tried making Plague Marines 19/20 points - and making most of the special weapons 5 points cheaper. (So Belchers/Plasma Pistols/axes free, plasma/blight launchers/flails etc 5 points etc). But I think this method works too.

I guess we'll see if people start slowly advancing 60~ blinged out Plague Marines down the table.

They could have just made each weapon option cost 1 point. It would have made the people who want things to cost happy and would make those options viable and useable for Death Guard players.

Because the problem is that at 5-10 points a weapon you still have a slow moving infantry that mostly has close combat weapons if you go for a 10 man squad. Which does result in almost every single faction having the capacity to outplay against it meaning that those 5-10 point upgrades being useless and a burden. I've been playing Death Guard since late 8th and Plague Marines have been more or less of a burden with each upgrade a liability. It is why poxwalkers were the preferred troop choice.

I do expect an increase in Plague Marines use but that is a good thing since almost no one has been using them for Hel knows how long. In fact I foresee people going infantry heavy with Plague Marines, Blight Lords, and Death Shrouds with a few poxwalkers in and maybe running Terminus Est type forces. So in general I think it is positive from going from 0 use to actual use.

I want to iterate that Plague Marines are not Aeldari. They do not have super movement speed and shenanigans so if you can't outmaneuver them you are probably playing Death Guard yourself.

Agentdenton wrote:
Between the new points drops and the new balance sheet I've already seen yt videos claiming that necrons are now 'broken' which seems to mean they may have a close to 50% chance of winning more often.

As is I have to switch from an Indy dynasty to Szarekhan because having undying legion in both mode on all the time is clearly too good to pass up.

I hope they aren't busted. Necrons were upset that Warriors, DDAs, etc didn't get point drops, but then we get the slate that revealed why. Biggest problem is probably SK being way too hard to pass up. We'll probably also see a lot more Ctan, too. Overall the changes don't make Necrons noticeably tougher so responding to them should be the same ( mostly ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:
They could have just made each weapon option cost 1 point.

Eh. 1 point is nearly 0 when you're adding it to something that is 21.

With all the changes to objectives, CP, missions, points and Dataslate, it is pretty much impossible to accurately predict the new meta.

So we have to wait and see what works and what doesn't in the next tournament results.

 Daedalus81 wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eldarsif wrote:
They could have just made each weapon option cost 1 point.

Eh. 1 point is nearly 0 when you're adding it to something that is 21.

True true. It would have been a more symbolic gesture than anything else.

Quasistellar wrote:
Any time a change is made that makes any specific model that has been glued together by a person on dakka worse, that person will rage into the night, because they have built *exactly* 2000 points worth of that army and will never, EVER have extra models with different loadouts, and it would be ANTI-CONSUMER to suggest that their particular 2000 point build might not be optimal for eternity.

It is anti-consumer to suggest that their particular 2000 point build being trash 90% of the time is okay assuming the build isn't deliberately bad. It is anti-consumer to suggest that it is okay for someone to have 10000 points and only be able to make trash lists.

Agentdenton wrote:
Between the new points drops and the new balance sheet I've already seen yt videos claiming that necrons are now 'broken' which seems to mean they may have a close to 50% chance of winning more often.

As is I have to switch from an Indy dynasty to Szarekhan because having undying legion in both mode on all the time is clearly too good to pass up.

And herein lies the fundamental problem that Necrons have faced for over a decade now and it's why they are almost always bad. Along with Eldar, Necrons appear to be one of the harder factions to tune correctly but unlike Eldar, GW tend to er on the side of underpowered is better. Hence whenever there's an update, new rule or new Necron unit that threatens to upturn the apple cart, there is a massive outcry from (mostly Imperium) players, outlining why this cannot be allowed and the nerfs soon follow. I will never, ever forget the seething and bluster about the Nightbringer almost two years ago, with no statistical evidence to back up the claims of "OP" - leading to an already overcosted model becoming even more expensive. If Necrons have a 55% or better win rate in the next 6 months, expect the nerf bat to come back around after endless complaining. This community is toxic and the game will never be healthy as long as that is the case.

It is not toxic. It is being a realist. No one wants their army be weak or nerfed in other, others can have armies that are good and fun to play. The gap between the top and the bottom, in both editions I saw, is huge. And I suspect the situation was no different in the past.
A lot of people are shoting for 3-6 months of fun every few editions, with exeption of eldar players. And this means they aren't very keen or losing 2-3 months of fun, because of supposed needed balance, when everyone knows that next books will not be that.

GW killed in codex soups, mixng subfactions etc. What is the next thing they do? They give eldar an option to go around that.
Marines get 2W, because they are getting farmed by other factions, the first things that happen to non marines is getting more and more options to kill 2W models with +3sv. etc etc.

Balanced especialy internaly, mid tier etc Could be another name for bad. This gets even worse in the prospect of non marine armies that have to wait , sometimes years, to get an update, and the update doesn't even have to be good. CSM are waiting for a good codex since what 4th ed? I hope they get it in 10th. People that started the game when chaos was good and fun to play last time, are close to my dads age.

Daemons, nids, knights, inquisition and assassins also "got a way to get around that".

In essence GW is going back to the traditional allies that have existed for most of 40k's history but kept the option of allying in anything remotely on the same side at the cost of special rules.

Which kind of is how it should have been from the start.

If they want to do, they should do in a new edition. Because it is bad to design books with sub faction soups in mind, then revert the possibility only to added it back to later factions.

Who said they designed the books with Subfaction Soup in mind? Just because everyone sees that advantage of doing that doesn't mean GW play-tested or intended that to be the way people used the books.

EightFoldPath wrote:

A few other units have had the same treatment, e.g. Black Templar Primaris Crusaders get everything but one upgrade for free now.

Someone has noticed the Ork Kustom Jobs aren't costed out in their section (making them free) but that does look like an oversight. Or is it?

My initial reaction is this was GW screwing up rather than intentionally giving ork Kustom jobz away for free.

At the same time though...literally all the vehicle upgrades are crap so..... yeah, don't know. As an example, you can give a Battlewagon the "Shokka Hull" for 15pts, what does that do? if you target it in melee on a 4+ you suffer D3 mortal wounds....doesn't really sound worth 15pts...more like 5.

Squig Hide Tyres: 15pts on the wagon, what does it do? +1' movement and +2' advance. Can't charge afterwards, even during waaagh turns. So at most 3' extra movement, worth 15pts on a 105pt model? Not really...more like 5.

More Dakka: 30pts on the wagon, what does it do? every time you shoot roll a D6, on a 4+ you get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons (big shootas only) on a 6+ you get 2 extra shots. On a roll of a 6 this gives the tricked out battlewagon a grand total of.....8 extra big shoota shots Not even worth 1pt let alone 30.

Fortress on Wheels: 20pts on the wagon, what does it do? 5+ invuln on the wagon. Not bad, but not worth 20pts. For 10 its worth taking, 20 its just forgettable.

There are a host of other upgrades but they pretty much follow the above trend, over priced for small benefits. Tie that in with the fact that it can't be used on squadrons and that a vehicle can only have 1 kustom job and actually...yeah, I think them being free would be fine, maybe make it limited to 1 per detachment.

Karol wrote:
Marines get 2W, because they are getting farmed by other factions

I really don't understand what you mean by this. Can you please explain?

I truly don't understand the use of "farming" here.

SemperMortis wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:

A few other units have had the same treatment, e.g. Black Templar Primaris Crusaders get everything but one upgrade for free now.

Someone has noticed the Ork Kustom Jobs aren't costed out in their section (making them free) but that does look like an oversight. Or is it?

My initial reaction is this was GW screwing up rather than intentionally giving ork Kustom jobz away for free.

At the same time though...literally all the vehicle upgrades are crap so..... yeah, don't know. As an example, you can give a Battlewagon the "Shokka Hull" for 15pts, what does that do? if you target it in melee on a 4+ you suffer D3 mortal wounds....doesn't really sound worth 15pts...more like 5.

Squig Hide Tyres: 15pts on the wagon, what does it do? +1' movement and +2' advance. Can't charge afterwards, even during waaagh turns. So at most 3' extra movement, worth 15pts on a 105pt model? Not really...more like 5.

More Dakka: 30pts on the wagon, what does it do? every time you shoot roll a D6, on a 4+ you get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons (big shootas only) on a 6+ you get 2 extra shots. On a roll of a 6 this gives the tricked out battlewagon a grand total of.....8 extra big shoota shots Not even worth 1pt let alone 30.

Fortress on Wheels: 20pts on the wagon, what does it do? 5+ invuln on the wagon. Not bad, but not worth 20pts. For 10 its worth taking, 20 its just forgettable.

There are a host of other upgrades but they pretty much follow the above trend, over priced for small benefits. Tie that in with the fact that it can't be used on squadrons and that a vehicle can only have 1 kustom job and actually...yeah, I think them being free would be fine, maybe make it limited to 1 per detachment.

Pts debate aside, have you considered that you might be using (or theorizing about using) these upgrades on the wrong units?
Or that you look at this stuff too seriously (see More Dakka below)?

Here's what I use them on:

*Squig Tires - I put these on a truck.
That trucks main job is to scoot across the table as fast as possible to a key location & off-load it's passengers (obsec grots - because I play a grot army).
It does NOT have to do this turn 1, just at the right moment.
If it's not doing it on turn 1? Then it's scooting into some out-of-los spot & lurking. Waiting for the right moment.
I generally don't WANT it charging anything.
I often play the force as Evil Sunz.
Truck mv + kulture + squig tires + advance roll? That's one fast truck....

*Fortress on Wheels - I put this on a truck full of obsec grots.
A 5++ isn't great, and I'd gladly pay less pts for it, but it's kept that truck/those grots alive in enough games to have earned a permanent place in my list (and a dedicated bitz on the model).
This is also the truck Makari rides around in.

*Shokka Hull - I've recently played around putting this on a Grot Mega-Tank.
It is amazing how much hate 2/3 of my Mega tanks attract. They've each been charged numerous times. Fine, if you're going to punch me to death I'm going to try & get as much payback as possible....
In matched I put it on the tank I've kitted with all rokkits (people seem to really dislike the # of rokkits this thing can throw)
In Crusade I put it on the one I've kitted with all KMB. Because thematically. It takes alot of juice to power all those blastas. What do you think should happen if you punch a rolling reactor?? "Bzzzzzt!"
Fun? Yes. Worth the pts/PL being spent on it? "Eh".

*More Dakka! - this goes on my 3rd Mega-Tank.
The one I've equipped with all big shootas.
When it works I get alot more Dakka than your wagon.
Fun? Yes. Effective? Kind of(?) If judged based solely on efficiency I'd give it a thumbs down at the current cost.
BUT.... there's also no other upgrade more appropriate for a scratch built MT mounting a captured/salvaged "Endless Fury" relic cannon looted from a Knight the Grots took down a few weeks back.
And it's amused everyone playing everytime I've put it on the table.
Sometimes fun/theme can trump efficiency.
So pts/PL permitting....

 Blndmage wrote:

Karol wrote:
Marines get 2W, because they are getting farmed by other factions

I really don't understand what you mean by this. Can you please explain?

I truly don't understand the use of "farming" here.

Imagine that you're in an on-line gaming environment, especially in environments where you get a few points for a game each day and build up points for rewards. In that sort of situation it becomes easy to stop thinking about the other player as a human being. In that sort of context, "farming" is just the repeated performance of a task (or even an entire game) to gather victory points. Especially common with "farming" is the connotation that the repeated task is simple and routine, and only worth doing because of the eventual larger reward.

SemperMortis wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:

A few other units have had the same treatment, e.g. Black Templar Primaris Crusaders get everything but one upgrade for free now.

Someone has noticed the Ork Kustom Jobs aren't costed out in their section (making them free) but that does look like an oversight. Or is it?

My initial reaction is this was GW screwing up rather than intentionally giving ork Kustom jobz away for free.

At the same time though...literally all the vehicle upgrades are crap so..... yeah, don't know. As an example, you can give a Battlewagon the "Shokka Hull" for 15pts, what does that do? if you target it in melee on a 4+ you suffer D3 mortal wounds....doesn't really sound worth 15pts...more like 5.

Squig Hide Tyres: 15pts on the wagon, what does it do? +1' movement and +2' advance. Can't charge afterwards, even during waaagh turns. So at most 3' extra movement, worth 15pts on a 105pt model? Not really...more like 5.

More Dakka: 30pts on the wagon, what does it do? every time you shoot roll a D6, on a 4+ you get 1 extra shot with dakka weapons (big shootas only) on a 6+ you get 2 extra shots. On a roll of a 6 this gives the tricked out battlewagon a grand total of.....8 extra big shoota shots Not even worth 1pt let alone 30.

Fortress on Wheels: 20pts on the wagon, what does it do? 5+ invuln on the wagon. Not bad, but not worth 20pts. For 10 its worth taking, 20 its just forgettable.

There are a host of other upgrades but they pretty much follow the above trend, over priced for small benefits. Tie that in with the fact that it can't be used on squadrons and that a vehicle can only have 1 kustom job and actually...yeah, I think them being free would be fine, maybe make it limited to 1 per detachment.

To be honest, most of those kustom jobs would be auto take if they cost 5 or 10 points.

Forktress is 20 points on top on a 135 wagon (assuming rolla and 'ard case). It doesn't seem crazy to pay 20 points for a 5++, in fact I always give it to a wagon, at 10 it would be auto take.

Squig Hide Tyres I usually don't bother, but at 5 it would also be auto take.

Shokka Hull is wasted on a wagon, give it to a deffkilla wartrike instead. Like Forktress it's a legit option as it is, it would be auto take at 5.

More Dakka is the trickiest one since it's the less useful. On a wagon it's completely wasted and it's still too expensive at 15 on cheaper vehicles but on a Boomdakka Snazzwagon or a Dakkajet and probably on a Scrapjet too it would be auto take at 5, let alone 1.

The real awful Kustom Jobs are Da Booma (standard gun on the cheaper FW battlewagon is better), Red Rolla (adds only 1.5 attacks on average and only on the worst kind of wagon), Bionic Oiler (grot oiler is already useless, using him twice doesn't change anything), Smoky Gubbinz (seriously? I won't even comment this ). Many other kustom jobs might be too expensive but still they can have a niche in casual games at least. Those horrible four could simply disappear and no one would even notice .

 Blndmage wrote:

Karol wrote:
Marines get 2W, because they are getting farmed by other factions

I really don't understand what you mean by this. Can you please explain?

I truly don't understand the use of "farming" here.

Look how marine armies looked before 2.0 codex in 8th ed. The way to build a marine lists was, to take as few marines as possible. Troops? scouts, because they are cheapest. obligatory HQs, and then as many points as you can in armies which are actualy good. Loyal 32 was the norm, or later its ad mecha version. When knights got their book, the building of a marine army looked like this. Castellan, loyal 32 and then lets see how many left over points we have to run smash hammer 2HQ. Meanwhile and eldar player was building an eldar army or a Inari army with the same models. CSM were the same way. csm were so bad, that taking them over cultists was foolish. And lets not even go in to how DW or GK were in 8th. Marine players were required to build tournament lists to play outside of tournaments. Which ment they were getting farmed, aka they were made to play games they could not win.

Karol wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:

Karol wrote:
Marines get 2W, because they are getting farmed by other factions

I really don't understand what you mean by this. Can you please explain?

I truly don't understand the use of "farming" here.

Look how marine armies looked before 2.0 codex in 8th ed. The way to build a marine lists was, to take as few marines as possible. Troops? scouts, because they are cheapest. obligatory HQs, and then as many points as you can in armies which are actualy good. Loyal 32 was the norm, or later its ad mecha version. When knights got their book, the building of a marine army looked like this. Castellan, loyal 32 and then lets see how many left over points we have to run smash hammer 2HQ. Meanwhile and eldar player was building an eldar army or a Inari army with the same models. CSM were the same way. csm were so bad, that taking them over cultists was foolish. And lets not even go in to how DW or GK were in 8th. Marine players were required to build tournament lists to play outside of tournaments. Which ment they were getting farmed, aka they were made to play games they could not win.

How does this relate the the current edition?