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Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/27 03:43:20


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Starting a new thread now that the Chaos Space Marines Codex is out and the rules are all out over the internet as well. I will just link one of the many youtube videos that reviewed the book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXPKz35fpWc&ab_channel=AuspexTactics
By Auspex Tactics

There are many more on youtube, but I like the power point presentation format display that Auspex Tactics use.

This is a very good video on playing match play CSM by a very good player who is actually using one of the "not so highly rated legions" and yet he is winning lots of games with it. A lot of the stuff he says can be applied to other legions as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O6FPW8xk44&ab_channel=FrontlineGamingNetwork

Some things I personally like:

1. Any legion unit can get +1 toughness via the mutated invigoration psychic power. We can make a Lord of skulls T9 ... lol

2. Nurgle units in a CSM army can now get Transhuman via the Strategem Grandfather's blessing. This is kinda huge. We all know how powerful Transhuman is. And also, we can add plague marines as elite choices into our army and they now get all their special weapons for free. Let's look at how durable we can make Nurgle units in CSM. We can give it +1 toughness from Mutated Invigorated psychic power, give it -1 to hit from Miasma of pestilence, give it Transhuman (can only wound on 4+). via Grandfather's blessing. Mark of Nurgle makes natural 4s to wound need 5s instead. And we can even add on a prayer Illusionary Supplication so that the unit gets Trans-hit (can only get hit on 4+) plus hits against it cannot be rerolled. That's a massive stack of buffs, but wow is this unit going to be hard to kill. lol

3. Cloak of Conquest relic gives a character an aura that makes any Core units and characters within 6 inches Obsec. This means we can make all our terminators, chosen, plague marines, rubrics, noise marines all obsec as long as they are within 6 inches of this character.

4. Veil Breaker Plate gives us veil of darkness ability. We can teleport one character and a nearby unit to anywhere on the board (usual 9 inch from enemy restrictions apply). Teleport a 10-man rubric marine flamer squad to 9 inches and flame away! (+20 autohits because of our new let the galaxy burn).

5. Our new Let the Galaxy Burn rules makes fishing for exploding 6s very fun on units with high number of attacks (ranged or melee). Pairs well with Abbadon who can give one Core unit reroll all hits (and wounds if you are black legion).

6. Abbadon is an absolute beast. Probably the most powerful 9W character in the game right now that can benefit from "look out sir". He will murder anything he touches.

7. Master of Possession and Malefic psychic disclpline is so good. This character will literally define certain lists. Like he can heal Abaddon (who only takes max 3 damage per phase). He can also resurrect an obliterator (90 points) as long as the unit still has one model left). And Cursed Earth on a daemonkin centric army is going to be so good (especially with the new awesome possessed).

8. You can kit out a flying Daemon Prince or a Lord Discordant to truly monstrous levels now because you can give it two relics and a warlord trait.

9. The new Chaos Land Raider is so good! Improved soulshatter lascannons. And T9 with AOC massively increases its durability. A lot of armies will find our LR really hard to kill.

Do share what combos or themes you like from the new 9th edition codex on this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, some Theme centric armies I thought about.

1. Abaddon centric. He pairs well with so many different armies. But he probably gives the most benefit to a black legion army with at least one huge block of 10 terminators. A 10 man terminator unit that is shooting and fighting with exploding 6s (because of Let the Galaxy Burn and Abbadon giving it reroll all hits and wounds) is going to be scary.

2. Daemon Engine centric. A Lord of Skulls buffed to T9 and 4++ by a master of possession, being given +1 to hit and D3 healing by a warpsmith. An Iron Warriors warlord with architect of destruction gives this LOS Wanton destruction every turn (Heavy weapons get exploding 6s). You can give another character the Siege Lord trait and now all the high damage guns near him get +1 damage. This will make that 12 shot gun on the LOS truly scary now (Str 8, 3 damage, exploding 6s). Back the LOS up with the super cheap Venom Crawlers, other Daemon engines, and maybe 1 Lord Discordant and we now have a pretty thematic army that sounds fun to play and looks awesome!

3. Possessed centric melee rush. The new possessed model stats are amazing. So just bring as many as we can, back it up with characters and such, and we will have an army that is going to absolutely murder stuff in close combat while moving 9 inches per turn.

4. Noise Marine spam/centric. Emperor's children legion has some fun rules, and let the galaxy burn is going to be so good on those sonic blastors. Obsec Noise Marines in an Emperor's Children legion can do a lot of things. Honor the Prince is still in the codex. So, terminators warp striking in, shooting with exploding 6s, and then charging into combat with this strategem is absolutely a thing. Can use a 1 man Obliterator for this strategy too. Smaller deepstrike footprint and just 90 points. Obliterators melee are scary now (They are literally wielding power fists with no -1 to hit). A single Obliterator can totally take on and beat the usual 5 man marine backfield unit in the backfield objective alone.

5. World Bearer's melee centric army: The legion rules for this legion are kinda strong... reroll all hits on first round of melee combat, and a 5++ against MW. They use Dark Apostles the best as well.

6. Red Corsairs legion. Everything advances and charges! Pairing this legion trait with the new possessed that has a 9 inch move and venomcrawlers or warptalons is going to give an army that will be right up in our opponent's face from the word "Go!"

7. Herohammer theme. Get Abaddon, a flying Daemon prince, and 2 Lord discordants, buff them up to the max with warlord traits and relics (especially the Daemon weapons!) and have the rest of the army just focus on delivering them into combat so that they can murder stuff. We can create some absolutely scary characters plus the murder machine Abaddon. Between them, they will smash through and kill anything we want them to.

I do think most of our lists should focus more on melee than shooting though. Given how good most of our units are at fighting, plus the buffs that can be given to their melee attacks, it would be a waste to focus only on shooting when making a CSM list.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/27 18:43:08


Post by: Selfcontrol


About Legionnaries :

I don't see them being good outside 2 configurations :

- No Mark, no Icon, 5-men squad with the book option. It's cheap, it's one extra power or deny the witch ;

- Mark of Khorne, Icon, 10-men squad with astartes chainsword and that's it.

The first configuration is a no brainer. It only costs 110 points and it can help a bit during the psychic phase, which is good.

The second configuration is more expensive (200 points). However, it is very decent in melee with 41 Attacks at S5 AP-2. They are reasonably tanky thanks to AoC and they have objective secured. However, they are still some kind of Carnifex distraction. The heavy chainaxe and daemon blade could really increase their damage potential, but that's 20 points for a unit which is painfully slow and Rhinos are still not good (even with AoC). I'm still debating myself if this configuration is actually worth it or not. Also, thanks to Nephilim, we will never spend 2 CP to fight again.

Slaanesh and Tzeench Marks aren't worth it. I would have tested a Tzeentch-centric squad if they could take 2 times the same special weapon. Because they can't, I don't see the point of such a squad (which is such a shame god damn it !).

As for a Slaanesh-centric squad, I consider the Mark of Slaanesh to be a total waste on Legionnaries : the bonus to hit rolls can be found elsewhere, the fight first part is not that important on a squad which will have huge troubles going through AoC. They have access to more buffs because they aren't Khorne (5+ FnP etc), but I'd rather buff a unit which is naturally a lot more dangerous (mainly, Terminators and perhaps Chosen).


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/27 19:37:12


Post by: EviscerationPlague


I'm thinking 4 squads of Chaos Marines, no upgrades besides the Axe and a Power Fist on the Champ. Icon and Marks optional, and honestly not necessary. MAYBE Khorne. MAYBE.

I'm calling for it for the Corsairs to be the strongest ruleswise due to the mobility and delayed reserves strat. That's an early guess though, and I'll fiddle with stuff once Battlescribe is updated. Not feeling inspired by the codex though.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 00:21:10


Post by: techsoldaten


The phrase "Abaddon is an absolute beast" has been repeated a lot. Calling a moratorium until the book has been out for a month.

5 Legionnaires with psychic book costs 110 pts, 10 Mutants + 6 Torments costs 150 points. Given the current meta, I'm not sure if 24" S4 D1 shooting is worth considering. I'd take the Mutants over them in most lists, just for the regeneration.

Laspreds have me weirdly psyked. There's finally a reason to take them over Havocs, they now have better guns and can move and shoot without penalty. This was the biggest surprise for me in the Codex.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 00:56:56


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Just my opinion on Legionaires.

Yeah, I was quite excited about balefire tomes before the codex came out. But actually, I think balefire tomes now are a bit of a trap after having making up some lists and going through the book. Its 20 points, which seems so cheap at first. But you probably need to have a specific psychic in mind. The problem is Prescience isn't that great anymore, we are simply better as a melee focus army.

The cult psychic are good. But that means we need to spend another 15 points to give the legionaire squad a mark. The issue is once we start doing that, all the points start adding up. That means we have now spent 35 points for the sole purpose of getting a specific god psychic. Its still cheaper than getting a separate character, but here's the thing. A character can't be shot at and killed while a squad of legionaires can.

If for example, you are relying on this to cast say "Miasma of Pestilence" or "Delightful Agonies" every turn. Your opponent can kill the squad and you have now lost your psyker. Its far harder to target and kill a Master of possession or sorceror hiding behind all your actual units.

Also, we can add marks to our characters as well. And we have relics like the Liber Hereticus that gives us an additional cast. So, in my above example, its far easier to just spend only 15 points to give our Master Of possession a Mark and a relic, and have him cast that psychic.

The issue is the legionaire squad just doesn't do much. Elite units like Terminators, Possessed, Chosen, pound for pound just fight so much better. 150 points of any one of these would absolutely murder stuff. While 150 points of legionaires would do only half as well as they would (if lucky).

Basically, they are there to provide obsec and do action. So, I really would keep them as cheap as possible and forget about the balefire tomes for now. Unless we are trying out some sort of MW list where we are trying to do a lot of psychic .. in which case Tsons would just do it better. We would just to be trying to be a second rate Tsons army.

One balefire tome or even two might be ok if we have the strategy for it. Like for example, say we plan to keep a legionaire unit on a back objective anyway, and it will stay in ruins behind obscuring while casting a Misma of pestilence or delightful agonies onto a Terminator squad that is bullying the center of the board. But don't spend too many points on legionaires. They are simply not efficient. The same amount of effort (points, buffs, strategems) spent on elite units like Chosen, Terminators, possessed would get far far bigger benefits.

(I think legionaires are the cheapest models we can sacrifice to a master of possession's dagger for a +2 to cast. lol). A cheap vanilla squad might be good just for that. Want a key psychic to go off. Sacrifice a legionaire to take d3MW to get a +2 to cast.) But only for a key psychic that you absolutely need to cast this turn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 techsoldaten wrote:
The phrase "Abaddon is an absolute beast" has been repeated a lot. Calling a moratorium until the book has been out for a month.

5 Legionnaires with psychic book costs 110 pts, 10 Mutants + 6 Torments costs 150 points. Given the current meta, I'm not sure if 24" S4 D1 shooting is worth considering. I'd take the Mutants over them in most lists, just for the regeneration.

Laspreds have me weirdly psyked. There's finally a reason to take them over Havocs, they now have better guns and can move and shoot without penalty. This was the biggest surprise for me in the Codex.


There are pros and cons. Havocs are Core. So Abaddon can give them reroll all hits and all wounds to a Havoc squad on turn 1. But yeah, T8 Predator Tanks in the back line with 2 shots of a special twin soulshatter D6+2 lascannon makes Predator tanks more interesting now.

It feels like we should go Iron Warriors if we want to run 3 Predator Tanks though. They have the most buffs for vehicles.


About Abaddon. Let's give it a month and see. I actually feel that he is not so easy to use. Charge him up alone, and there are ways to bring him down. Charge him up the board with friends, and that makes for a very obvious force where you have invested a massive number of points. And he is limited by his 6 inch movement. So, the force he is in, is no different from that 10 man Blightlord force with DG characters in tow or that Tsons 10 man scarab occult terminator force with characters in tow. I would argue that for this style of play, DG might do it even better. Their entire battle strategy is usually, they want to get up to midboard to bully the center.

Put Abaddon in warpstrike with say obliterators or Terminators. And well... you have just put around one third of your army into deep strike where they are not going to come down until turn 2. If some one screens well, you may not even have good targets to shoot or charge even if you come down. Someone plays Red Corsairs against you and now one of your units come down turn 3 ...

So... yeah. For all these reasons. I think lets give it a month and see if they tweak this. Abaddon is amazing, but I think he takes skill to use well.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 01:03:47


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Am I reading this right... Diabolic Strength now only works on Infantry/Spawn?

A DP can't cast it on himself?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 01:18:10


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Am I reading this right... Diabolic Strength now only works on Infantry/Spawn?

A DP can't cast it on himself?


Yup. That's correct. Diabolic Strength doesn't work on Daemon Prince now. However, there are other ways to make a DP an absolute monster in combat. I think we can save Diabolic strength for buffing Abaddon or another Infantry character instead (like a Dark Apostle).

DP should go with daemon weapons relics, warlord traits, and Marks for their power. It boosts them to some pretty scary levels of power. If we don't mind blowing all our starting CP on relics and warlord traits, I do think Herohammer for CSM lists are a thing. We can kit out one flying daemon Prince, two Lord Discordants, and Abbadon and run these four up the board supported by the rest of our army. All four will absolutely wreck stuff once they get stuck in. spending 1 CP on making weapons on a DP or a Lord Discordant into daemon weapons is absolutely nuts. Boost their already good weapons to super power weapons level of status. You can't get a relic weapon that comes even close.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 01:22:45


Post by: H.B.M.C.


DP has to take a Mark, so can't take Ul'o'cca the Black, right?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 01:25:14


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
DP has to take a Mark, so can't take Ul'o'cca the Black, right?


Correct. DP cannot take Ul'o'cca the Black. We can use Ul'c'ca on a Lord Discordant instead. Its actually the same base 6 attacks as a starting point. Ul'o'cca combined with the warlord trait flames of spite is so good. Can reroll wounds, wounds will do 1 MW, and wounds of 6 will do 2 MW. lol. The base weapon damage plus the MW output from these two combined is massive. And the Lord DIscordant get +1 damage against vehicles and a +1 to wound innate anyway.

Almost all of the daemon weapons are worth looking at. Like the Tzeentch one for example ignores all invul. Usually the stuff we want to kill might have an invul. So, ignoring invul is huge. I mean, the reason we look at MW is partly because it goes right through invul as well.

And the Slanaash one is for the biggest number of attacks increase. Even a Sword DP with the Slanaash relic daemon weapon has a ridiculous number of attacks.

The Khorne Daemon weapon adds D3 damage. On an Axe or sword DP which is already flat damage 3. Just one failed save will mean 3+d3 damage, which will guarantee kill any 4W character, and often kill even a 5W character.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 01:50:29


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I haven't had time to get through Auspex's whole video yet (I'm up to psychic powers). Are there other Legion-specific Daemon Weapons besides that rather paltry offering of 5?

My Daemon Prince, who is Khornate, has a Wailing Doom fused to his right hand as his "Daemon Weapon", and I thought that Ul'o'cca would be more representative of that than +D3 damage (woo!).



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 02:08:16


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I haven't had time to get through Auspex's whole video yet (I'm up to psychic powers). Are there other Legion-specific Daemon Weapons besides that rather paltry offering of 5?

My Daemon Prince, who is Khornate, has a Wailing Doom fused to his right hand as his "Daemon Weapon", and I thought that Ul'o'cca would be more representative of that than +D3 damage (woo!).


Only the five, correct.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 02:12:01


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I haven't had time to get through Auspex's whole video yet (I'm up to psychic powers). Are there other Legion-specific Daemon Weapons besides that rather paltry offering of 5?

My Daemon Prince, who is Khornate, has a Wailing Doom fused to his right hand as his "Daemon Weapon", and I thought that Ul'o'cca would be more representative of that than +D3 damage (woo!).




Wailing Doom is a sword right? the default Hellforged sword is already an amazing weapon. It is +1 Str, AP3, 3 damage. Maybe just go for max number of attacks on such a Khorne DP? We can go with a Khorne DP with Hatred Incarnate warlord trait. This gives +1A, +1S when charging on heroic intervene and reroll hits all the time. Then add Taslisman of the Burning blood for +1A, 6 inch heroic intervention and +1 attack every time you murder a unit. The attacks will add up really fast.

Like as a default, once you charge, you are charging in with 9 Sword attack which are Str 11, AP3, flat 3 damage, plus your talon attack. And you can reroll all 9 of these attacks to fish for exploding 6s if you are in the correct Wanton phase. And every time you murder a unit or a character, your attacks go up by 1. And you can heroic 6 inches with this DP, which is wild. They can't even come within 6 inches of you without getting murdered lol.

I like that Khorne's new "Fury of Khorne" strategem is a sort of counter to the pesky Transhuman Pysiology. You go Transhuman. I go Fury of Khorne for just 1 CP. Now my 6s to hit auto wound! (Plus I get them to explode for more hits too if I am in Wanton Slaughter.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 08:16:25


Post by: Salt donkey


Yeah I’m going to be all about a black legion terminator brick with abbadon. Costs 650 points with - 1 AP bolters, gets you a unit which is -1 to W with a relic, can get demon shells for -2 AP and 30 inch range and re-rolls hits and wounds with 40 shots using Abby buff. There’s more buffs if you want to to throw in additional.characters and relics.(like obsec).


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 10:44:30


Post by: techsoldaten


Eldenfirefly wrote:
There are pros and cons. Havocs are Core. So Abaddon can give them reroll all hits and all wounds to a Havoc squad on turn 1. But yeah, T8 Predator Tanks in the back line with 2 shots of a special twin soulshatter D6+2 lascannon makes Predator tanks more interesting now.

It feels like we should go Iron Warriors if we want to run 3 Predator Tanks though. They have the most buffs for vehicles.

Yep. The new Codex does a good job providing variation between Legions by letting them buff units in different ways.

Honestly, I'm still in shock GW improved Chaos LRs / Preds. My excitement may be coloring sound judgement over the efficiency of the unit. My take is Laspreds, in particular, are well priced in any Legion.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
About Abaddon. Let's give it a month and see. I actually feel that he is not so easy to use. Charge him up alone, and there are ways to bring him down. Charge him up the board with friends, and that makes for a very obvious force where you have invested a massive number of points. And he is limited by his 6 inch movement. So, the force he is in, is no different from that 10 man Blightlord force with DG characters in tow or that Tsons 10 man scarab occult terminator force with characters in tow. I would argue that for this style of play, DG might do it even better. Their entire battle strategy is usually, they want to get up to midboard to bully the center.

Footslogging Abaddon has little appeal to me.

The competitive viability of monofaction CSM builds is concerning, I'm not convinced there's enough here to stand up to Eldar, Drukhari, Tau and AdMech. Deep striking Abaddon + Blightlords came to mind as an answer to these factions. My Blightlords have been MVPs in games with my Deathguard army, they can be so hard to kill. Paired with a unit with max damage caps, they could wreck a lot of armies.

So I wouldn't say Abaddon is hard to use. He's versatile and wants to be in combat, even moreso than in 8th. But it might take some imagination to maximize his effectiveness.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 12:58:41


Post by: EightFoldPath


Salt donkey wrote:
Yeah I’m going to be all about a black legion terminator brick with abbadon. Costs 650 points with - 1 AP bolters, gets you a unit which is -1 to W with a relic, can get demon shells for -2 AP and 30 inch range and re-rolls hits and wounds with 40 shots using Abby buff. There’s more buffs if you want to to throw in additional.characters and relics.(like obsec).

I like where you are going, but Terminators can't take an Icon of Tzeentch for the base 1AP.

There seems to be a build for 10 Terminators of:
-1 to wound relic on Champion.
Transhit/no re-rolls to hit Dark Apostle prayer.
+1 Toughness Master of Possession spell.
Res 1 and heal D3 Master of Possession spell.
5+++ or -1 to Hit or 4++ marked caster spell.
+1 Toughness or 6+++ marked prayer.

The mark needs to go on the Terminators as well so 45 for the priest, psyker and unit to have the same.

This works in any legion and there are some Legions who had more defence in their trait or in strategems (or both - hello Iron Warriors).

You go full fists + mark, no shooting for 385. That is a very solid anchor piece for your army to build around.

Then the same question as TSons, first breakfast is nice, but what about second breakfast? Should you take another 10 man terminator squad as back up? Two 5s? Or Possessed who can't take any of the prayer/mark buffs but also take a few other buffs the Terminators can't.

I'm also looking at Plague Marines and Rubric Marines. I think you get no Legion trait bonus rules (e.g. no NL morale/attrition malus), but do get the Legion keyword (for strats, spells, prayers, auras) and do get Let the Galaxy Burn.

So 225 points for 10 Plague Marines gets you the 1 PF, 2 Flails, 2 Cleavers, 1 Mace, 3 Plasma Guns, 2 Blight Launchers. You get your old T5, -1 dam as well as Mark of Nurgle against s5 and s10+. You get exploding 6s and access to +1 to hit from spells/prayers you lacked in DG.

While 252 points for 10 Rubric Marines gets 9d6+18 Warpflamer hits and 1d6+2 Flamepistol hits (57% more hits than normal). You win some/lose some in terms of spells/prayers, you keep All is Dust but you do lose the 5++.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 14:04:38


Post by: whembly


With regards to Abaddon, I think the most aggressive combo is to put him into a Dreadclaw.

That way, pretty much guaranteed to drop in 9" away of any enemy unit anywhere on the table Turn 1.

The opponent has to make the hard choices to spread out to mitigate Abby getting close to a juicy target, but that's okay as your opponent would likely have to expose more the they'd like.

Immediate pressure on Turn 1 threat seems spicy. Because you don't HAVE to drop him on Turn 1... the opponent may play/move conservatively on Turn 1 in fear of Abby's Dreadclaw. That conservative play make impact secondary scoring due to sacrificing movements/early strategy in fear of Abby's drop.

Thoughts?



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 15:35:36


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Abaddon absolutely has to get into combat. So I would agree with any and all methods to get him into combat. However, I would raise one point. If you plan to deep strike him in (be it from a dreadclaw or by warpstrike), then a good player will see what you are doing a mile away. And a good player will know how powerful he is in close combat too.

Putting him in a dreadclaw is interesting because turn 1 its coming down. I don't own any forgeworld so I am assuming he can go into a dreadclaw in the first place, but if you are doing that, you will probably put another unit in there as well. (You might as well). And now we are talking about hundreds upon hundreds of points all in one single dreadclaw waiting to come down on turn 1. This is the same issue with deep striking Abaddon. You will likely deep strike him alongside terminators and obliterators. It requires a certain deep strike footprint and any good player can see it coming a mile away.

Considering its easily one third or more of your army deep striking in at one spot. A good opponent WILL screen as if the game win/loss depended on it. (Because it likely will).

I feel like given how durable we can make a big block of terminators or possessed. Applying extreme pressure to the mid board by moving them up the board turn 1 along with Abaddon is how I would do this. Yes, it sounds slow. But Black legion has some interesting subtle tricks and we have warptime as well.

Black Legion has the Veilbreaker plate relic. Its literally veil of time on a terminator model. We don't need a transport or to deepstrike. We can literally turn 1 veil of time a block of "core" terminators right up the board. Now, how will Abbadon get there? Well, we can warp time him up. This is why warptime is still useful even if you can't charge if you cast it. Abbadon that advances along with warptime cast on him will go 12+d6 inches up the board. That's literally like a flying DP.

So, veilbreaker plate a big block of 10 terminators up the board, and warptime Abbadon right up along with them. Now turn 1, we already have a massive force up the board, a terminator character, and Abaddon with them. The good thing about this is we start off hidden. Any time we want, we can activate this strategy. On any turn! Not just turn 1 or 2 or 3. The other good thing about using this strategy is that we don't waste Abaddon's awesome command phase buffs. He is still on the table to hand out his great buffs.

Another trick that Black Legion has. For one CP, we can use "Confluence of Traitors" to have any one of our units gain an extra other legion trait for one battle round. This is soooo good because it opens up 8 other possible legion traits we can add to one unit. Want a unit to advance and charge? Add the Red Corsairs trait to it. Want it to have fight upon death? Add Creation of Bile. Want it to be super tanky? Add Iron Warriors on a unit of Nurgle and Cast Grand Father's Blessing (Now only wound on 4s, and cannot reroll wounds). Lots of MW incoming from a psychic heavy army? Add the World Bearer's Trait for a 5+ FNP against MW.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 20:18:27


Post by: techsoldaten


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Abaddon absolutely has to get into combat. So I would agree with any and all methods to get him into combat. However, I would raise one point. If you plan to deep strike him in (be it from a dreadclaw or by warpstrike), then a good player will see what you are doing a mile away. And a good player will know how powerful he is in close combat too.

Putting him in a dreadclaw is interesting because turn 1 its coming down. I don't own any forgeworld so I am assuming he can go into a dreadclaw in the first place, but if you are doing that, you will probably put another unit in there as well. (You might as well). And now we are talking about hundreds upon hundreds of points all in one single dreadclaw waiting to come down on turn 1. This is the same issue with deep striking Abaddon. You will likely deep strike him alongside terminators and obliterators. It requires a certain deep strike footprint and any good player can see it coming a mile away.

Considering its easily one third or more of your army deep striking in at one spot. A good opponent WILL screen as if the game win/loss depended on it. (Because it likely will).

I feel like given how durable we can make a big block of terminators or possessed. Applying extreme pressure to the mid board by moving them up the board turn 1 along with Abaddon is how I would do this. Yes, it sounds slow. But Black legion has some interesting subtle tricks and we have warptime as well.

Black Legion has the Veilbreaker plate relic. Its literally veil of time on a terminator model. We don't need a transport or to deepstrike. We can literally turn 1 veil of time a block of "core" terminators right up the board. Now, how will Abbadon get there? Well, we can warp time him up. This is why warptime is still useful even if you can't charge if you cast it. Abbadon that advances along with warptime cast on him will go 12+d6 inches up the board. That's literally like a flying DP.

So, veilbreaker plate a big block of 10 terminators up the board, and warptime Abbadon right up along with them. Now turn 1, we already have a massive force up the board, a terminator character, and Abaddon with them. The good thing about this is we start off hidden. Any time we want, we can activate this strategy. On any turn! Not just turn 1 or 2 or 3. The other good thing about using this strategy is that we don't waste Abaddon's awesome command phase buffs. He is still on the table to hand out his great buffs.

Another trick that Black Legion has. For one CP, we can use "Confluence of Traitors" to have any one of our units gain an extra other legion trait for one battle round. This is soooo good because it opens up 8 other possible legion traits we can add to one unit. Want a unit to advance and charge? Add the Red Corsairs trait to it. Want it to have fight upon death? Add Creation of Bile. Want it to be super tanky? Add Iron Warriors on a unit of Nurgle and Cast Grand Father's Blessing (Now only wound on 4s, and cannot reroll wounds). Lots of MW incoming from a psychic heavy army? Add the World Bearer's Trait for a 5+ FNP against MW.

What clever ideas. But deep striking Abaddon seems more efficient.

I'm in the early phases of putting together a melee list to test the new Codex. My main concern is getting the jump on shooty, non-Knight armies. Black Legion has some interesting beta strike possibilities worth considering.

Start the game with a Terminator CL with Veilbreaker Plate, Mutants / Torments, a melee Helbrute, and whatever else on the board. Second turn, deep strike Abaddon plus Terminators and have the CL teleport with the Helbrute while the Mutants seize objectives. Opponent can't ignore the mutants, they regenerate unless the unit is wiped out. So the Terminators don't have to deal with as much focus fire.

This gets more interesting if the Terminators are allied Blightlords and there was also a Lord of Contagion or something there for additional buffs.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 20:55:21


Post by: EviscerationPlague


So for anyone with the codex, do Rubric Marines, when bought for an army for this codex, get the benefits of this MoT (first failed save is fine) and the Icon (-1AP)?

If the latter is the case, AP-3 Bolters are a gold standard.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 21:08:43


Post by: Selfcontrol


EviscerationPlague wrote:
So for anyone with the codex, do Rubric Marines, when bought for an army for this codex, get the benefits of this MoT (first failed save is fine) and the Icon (-1AP)?

If the latter is the case, AP-3 Bolters are a gold standard.


They gain the benefit of the Mark of Tzeentch, but I don't think they gain the extra AP. They have access to the Icon of Flame, however, they do not gain the <ICON> keyword which is necessary to gain the extra AP on their boltgun.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 21:41:03


Post by: Salt donkey


Why is walking abbadon with terminators a bad idea. We live in 9th edition, where turn 2-3 middle of board is the only thing that matters. If your opponent ignores this blob, you are going to win the game. If your opponent attacks it, it’s very tough and hits back hard. Dread claws and DS on non utility units is always a bad idea. You can’t afford to have your most important unit in reserves in a 5 turn game.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/28 22:19:54


Post by: techsoldaten


Salt donkey wrote:
Why is walking abbadon with terminators a bad idea. We live in 9th edition, where turn 2-3 middle of board is the only thing that matters. If your opponent ignores this blob, you are going to win the game. If your opponent attacks it, it’s very tough and hits back hard. Dread claws and DS on non utility units is always a bad idea. You can’t afford to have your most important unit in reserves in a 5 turn game.

Abaddon footslogging is not a bad idea. The question is how it compares with deep strike.

Footslogging, he's exposed to shooting turn 1 and probably doesn't have a way to charge. Deep striking, he comes on the board turn 2 at 9" from an enemy unit. This also means he can get screened out from an optimal position.

So neither option is perfect. You can walk up the board with a brick, or you can try to pincer your opponent (knowing he's headed for the center.) The value of either tactic depends on what else is in the list.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 01:01:54


Post by: Eldenfirefly


On the subject of deep strike. I feel that deep striking single models of Obliterators is interesting. Now that they can fight well (power fists without the -1 to hit), and they can shoot with three selectable profiles, they are really good for deep striking into the back of your enemy's army.

One Obliterator is only 90 points (cheaper than a squad of deathshroud or Blightlords). And its 5W and 2+ save with armor of contempt. One model takes some effort to kill with armor of contempt. And if its just one Obliterator, the deep strike foot print is quite small. (Smaller than a squad of terminators). It warp strikes down on turn 2 and immediately shoots. We don't need to buff it further because its not Core anyway. If it makes its 9 inch charge into something soft or a vehicle in the backline, I am pretty sure it will bully that unit. A black legion obliterator that makes its 9 inch charge is attacking with 4 attacks at WS2 (because BL), with crushing fists that are Str 10, AP3, Damage 2. This is good into infantry or Vehicles.

The versatility of its guns makes it really good at attacking units cowering behind obscuring cover in the backfield.

Emperor's Children Obliterator get honor the prince (1CP) to charge 6+D6 in the turn they deep strike down because they are Demonkin. That is really going to give problems if they left holes in their backline for you to deep strike into.

I honestly feel that even one single obliterator in deep strike will be enough to cause your opponent to think about spreading out and screening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a bit of a sidetrack. I notice the codex designer went to great pains to make sure all the units that are Core and can get buffs are not that OP in shooting. (Unless we consider Havocs that great at shooting...). I mean, buffing 4 lascannons shots is not going to break the game, especially since we can't make them shoot twice now.

And all the rest of our Core can't be equipped for max shooting. Like a full squad of terminators will at most have 2 Meltas, 2 plasma guns, 2 flamers, and 2 Reaper autocannons. Its ok, but its not super great by any stretch. And such a unit costs well over 350 points.

A Squad of ten Chosen can fit 4 melta guns and 2 plasma pistols. Again, even with buffs, its not super OP. Especially since such a unit will hit 300 points at least.

And Obliterators are not Core. So, you can't really stack much buffs on them at all.

What makes units like Chosen and Terminators good is their powerful melee abilities. So, semi decent shooting (even with a shooting loadout), but they keep their powerful melee regardless.

This reaffirms my opinion that the designers want CSM to have decent shooting, but they intended for CSM to just really want to get stuck into combat. Because that's where they have far more advantages.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 02:43:45


Post by: dominuschao


Greetings. I play XX Legion focused around 10 plasma terminators, a headhunter terminator lord with vipers bite, 2x5 plasma chosen in termite or dreadclaw, a faceless commander jump lord and jump sorcerer as the general "core" of the list.
Add to that the actual core of cultists and min squads of HB marines some forgeworld like a chaos sicaran and double zerks for flavor plus a smattering of zoning spawn a heldrake etc. These last bits vary. The HQ and heavy hitters do not typically.

Anyway it's tougher than it looks and extremely fun to play. Now I'm asking is there anything in this new book that can replicate what I mentioned as the core of this list?
Thank you.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 03:23:14


Post by: Eldenfirefly


dominuschao wrote:
Greetings. I play XX Legion focused around 10 plasma terminators, a headhunter terminator lord with vipers bite, 2x5 plasma chosen in termite or dreadclaw, a faceless commander jump lord and jump sorcerer as the general "core" of the list.
Add to that the actual core of cultists and min squads of HB marines some forgeworld like a chaos sicaran and double zerks for flavor plus a smattering of zoning spawn a heldrake etc. These last bits vary. The HQ and heavy hitters do not typically.

Anyway it's tougher than it looks and extremely fun to play. Now I'm asking is there anything in this new book that can replicate what I mentioned as the core of this list?
Thank you.


Erm, you can bring the same units, they now hit harder, are tankier but their shooting is weaker. A max ten unit of Terminators can only bring 2 combi flamers, meltas, plasma and reaper autocannons. A five man unit of Chosen can only bring 2 plasma guns now, not 5. But Terminators and Chosen are both 3 wounds each now. So far tankier. Plus they fight better now. Accursed weapons are like power swords, but with +1 Str and +1 attack.

If you want something that can shoot close to a 10 man plasma terminator squad, the closest I can think of is a unit of 3 obliterators. They are three profiles they can choose for their shooting. And one of them is a 2 damage profile. Its a Heavy 3+D3, Str 7, AP2, Damage 2 profile. So, a unit of 3 obliterators can shoot 9+3D3 shots. And Obliterators can fight quite well nowadays too. 4 attacks with a power fist equivalent (so Str 10) without the -1 to hit.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 03:29:55


Post by: H.B.M.C.


And your Jump Lord/Sorcerer are no more.

And Berzerkers are harder to bring, and you have to buy them Marks, for some reason.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 03:33:59


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Yup, no more Jump pack Lords or Jump pack Sorcerors. You will have to think of alternatives, like a flying Daemon Prince or something I am afraid. Sorry, as H.B.M.C said below, you can run both a DP and a chaos lord in a detachment. So not so restrictive.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 03:41:31


Post by: H.B.M.C.


You can have a Chaos Lord and a Daemon Prince in the same army.

"You can include a maximum of one Chaos Lord, one Daemon Prince and one Dark Commune unit in each Chaos Space Marines Detachment in your army." - Chaos 9th, page 76.

The operative words being 'and' and 'each'.




Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 03:42:30


Post by: dominuschao


Jesus that sounds pretty harsh. So what's our go to for shooting then? And by no more you mean literally there's no JPs now? I can't see even gw pulling something like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoa and 1 lord too?! Nah you guys messing with me now. Nice joke 🤣


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 03:44:53


Post by: H.B.M.C.


No Jump Pack in the Codex for Chaos Lords/Sorcerers. No Lightning Claws anymore either for them (unless you're a Terminator Lord). Even Raptor Champs can't take Lightning Claws.

Exalted Champs lost all their options too.

Chosen can't take Power Fists for no easily discernible reason.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 03:48:15


Post by: dominuschao


OMG your serious? What did we get besides another wound then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok I gotta see the book to believe this now.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 03:52:06


Post by: Eldenfirefly


dominuschao wrote:
Jesus that sounds pretty harsh. So what's our go to for shooting then? And by no more you mean literally there's no JPs now? I can't see even gw pulling something like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whoa and 1 lord too?! Nah you guys messing with me now. Nice joke 🤣


I think they want CSM armies to focus more on melee rather than shooting.

The only jump packs we have now are on our raptors and our warptalons. Sorry, I know a lot of people are disappointed about this. There are like probably twenty pages about this in the CSM rumors thread. But I rather just move on and focus on what we do have.

Erm, the restriction is true. You can't have more than 1 chaos lord in a detachment. Flying Daemon Princes are really powerful now though, because you can buff their already powerful weapons with relic daemon weapons. And its possible to have a character carry two relics. Its a good consideration if you want something to replace a fighty jump pack lord.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 03:53:52


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Cultist HQs... and some fancy more mutated cultists!

Umm... what else did we lose... we lost Mutilators... and Berzerkers... and Plague Marines... and Rubric Marines... and Greater Possessed (new Possessed are now basically units of Greater Possessed though, but as separate characters they are gone).

CSM squads can't take two of the same special weapon for some reason, but Raptors can, and Bikers can take lots of things that aren't in the kit. Because of this a new word was invented: "Chaosistency", the act giving options to Chaos armies that make no God-damned sense at all.

Warp Talons don't have Lightning Claws anymore, they have "Warp Claws".

Chosen and Terminators no longer have power swords/axes/mauls/chainaxes or lightning claws. They have "Accursed Weapons", which are basically generic "power weapons". Terminators can still take power fists (though only 3 per 5 because of asinine reasons), and 1 fist per 5 (same asinine reasons).

Only Jump Pack Lord in the book is Haaken, so have fun all you Night Lord players I guess.

The Daemon Prince entry will be invalid in 6 months time when the new Daemon Prince model arrives, and it has options that aren't part of these rules.

Terminators and Chosen have strict limits on combi-weapons, again, all based on what's on the sprue, except Power Fists, which Chosen can't have, and despite other units having more options despite the same limited sprues (or nothing on the sprue at all). There's that "Chaosistency" again.

Marks are back, but you can't give them to Possessed because... *mumble mumble mumble*

The new Traitor Guard kit that first came out in the KT box didn't get rules in this book, unlike Eldar Corsairs that did. This also somehow makes sense.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 03:57:27


Post by: Eldenfirefly


dominuschao wrote:
OMG your serious? What did we get besides another wound then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok I gotta see the book to believe this now.


A ten man terminator can be made seriously tanky now. You can give it Mark of tzeentch so that it negates the first failed save each phase. You can also let the aspiring champion carry a relic Dark Rune of Damnation that gives the unit a -1 to wound. You can further buff it with psychic spells and prayers. Or you can go mark of nurgle and spend 2CP to give this unit transhuman. A ten man terminator unit is hard to shift now with buffs applied.

Their melee damage is great too. A ten man unit with their default accursed blades is doing 41 attacks that are Str 5, AP 3, Dmg 1. This is before any buffs or auras are applied.

Basically, the designers have made CSM somewhat less shooty, for stronger Melee. As a starting point, my advice would be to focus on the melee and just treat shooting as decent (but not going to win the game for you). The only CSM list I can think of that has been improved in shooting would be a triple predator list along with a Lord of skulls, or 1 Land Raider, 2 predators and a Lord of Skulls. Those datasheets all got their shooting improved. And predators are T8 now, LR are T9 now, and LOS is 30W now.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 03:58:48


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Eldenfirefly wrote:
You can give it Mark of tzeentch so that it negates the first failed save each phase.
Is this a good thing?

What's to stop your opponent just showering you in pathetic small-arms fire until you fail on save and then hitting you with the big stuff?



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 04:06:22


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
You can give it Mark of tzeentch so that it negates the first failed save each phase.
Is this a good thing?

What's to stop your opponent just showering you in pathetic small-arms fire until you fail on save and then hitting you with the big stuff?



Nothing prevents that. But if they are going to spam small arms fire on a terminator unit with armor of contempt. They are welcome to try. That's a lot of small arms fire that are going to do very little. Mark of Tzeentch also allows you to cast the 4++ psychic power on them. And that will definitely help against big guns.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 04:15:07


Post by: Sasori


Some strong combinations in the book. Black Legion, Word Bearers, Emps children and creations of bile are all looking great.

I'll probably start with a Discolord with Gorget and Flames of spite. The Gorget gives you +1 to Save and a 4++. With AoC that means you have to hit -3 AP before taking him off his 2+ save. Rerolling all wounds with the +1 damage to vehicles is also very nice. He should blend elite infantry and light vehicles pretty good with that profile.

A MoP is also a must. Their powers are fantastic and all the important ones do not require LoS and are 18' range. Easy casts. I'm planning on running a squad of oblits, some possessed and Venomcrawlers so this is perfect.

I'm probably going to take a large squad of Terminators with Abbadon. A huge hard to shift brick that's a massive threat in melee and even with AP 0 bolters can put out a ton of damage with abbadon, especially if you are black legion.

troops are going to be cheap... just your 3x5 with no upgrades I think. I may take the book, but that's an easy drop if I need points elsewhere.

Here just my initial ideas at a list

Discolord
MoP
3x5 Troops
10 Terminators
5-10 possesed
3x Venomcrawlers
3x Oblits
Abbadon

Will need to work in some numbers but this is my initial ideas skeleton.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 04:17:27


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Looks like a great list, Sasori ! Share with us here on this thread how it turns out!

On a separate note, I read that you can make an absolute monster out of a Master of Executions by giving him a relic daemon weapon, or/and a warlord trait. He can be a real Mortal Wounds monster. But he is a glass cannon though because he doesn't have a invul save. Unless you want to give him the relic Gorget of Eternal Hate, which gives the bearer a +1 armor save and a 4++ invul. But that would means spending 3CP just to equip out one character, which sounds like a lot.

Anyway, if you just want a glass cannon. He can be equipped with the daemon weapon Ul'o'cca the black, which makes his weapon - every successful wound deal a MW extra. At a base, he is already doing 6 attacks with Str 7, AP3, Dmg 2, and 6s to hit do 2 MW. And he already rerolls wounds against characters. So, just with this alone, you are probably going to kill most characters with tons of MW.

If its not enough MW, you can add on flames of spite. So now, you reroll wounds on everything and 6s to wound cause 1 extra MW. lol Alternatively, you can go hatred incarnate for +1A, +1S and you now reroll hits all the time. So you can reroll all of your 7 Str 8 hits to fish for 2MW each hit, and if you are in Wanton Slaughter, 6s also explode for more hits lol.

And all this for just 65 points. Hmm... I wonder if there is a possible list where we spam three of these things, because they are only an elite choice. So, they don't even take up a HQ slot.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 04:35:22


Post by: dominuschao


Well I'm stunned. I feel like I missed a whole edition somehow..

The tanky terminators sound cool. Prefer shooty but maybe that will work for me.

The bad ass disco sounds good too I have a FW model I stand in so that's cool.

But FFS I can't believe my entire army was gutted in one swoop.
Guess I could dust off the warp talons again always loved them. Maybe they got better odds to ds into combat now.
But what's our high str/ap/rof shooting now? I don't think land raiders make a good firing platform. Oblits sure I'll take some. Where's the plasma come from now? Preds I don't own anymore. Are defilers better maybe? And havocs? Sorry I guess I could read the rumours thread.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 04:49:17


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Oblits are good, or will be until GW knee-jerks them to 120 points each.

The shooty Dinobot ain't terrible. Daemon Engines in general are up to WS3+/BS3+ (as they always should have been; Defilers having the same weapon skill as Guardsmen has been been a bugbear of mine since 2007!). Land Raiders and Predators are tougher, finally. Not 100% certain that that'll save 'em, but they should last longer and therefore shoot more!

Havocs are now 5 models that still can't have any extras but have 2 wounds rather than 1, so that's a bonus. They can still jump out of a Rhino and fire for full effect, which is also nice.

Bikes might be able to shoot well in a pinch, given that they haven't had their weapon restrictions limited in the same bizarre way as other units have (despite having zero options in the kit... Chaosistency! ).

Noise Marines, the only Cult unit still left in the book ('cause they don't have a new kit), can put out an ok amount of firepower up close, but lost a Blastmaster because *mumble mumble mumble* reasons.

dominuschao wrote:
Well I'm stunned. I feel like I missed a whole edition somehow.
Some might say Chaos did too.

And never forget: Tau Drones got 2 wounds before Chaos Space Marines did.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 08:28:37


Post by: Eldenfirefly


So, here's a vehicle theme list. Based on trying to pack lots of vehicles with high Strength guns.

Warpsmith (Warlord)
Master of Possession

5 x Legionaires
10x cultists
10x cultists

3 X Hellbrutes with multi melta, fist with combi bolters

2 X Venomcrawlers
3 X Chaos Bikers

3 X Chaos Vindicators with combi melta

1 X Lord of skulls (Hades Gatling Cannon, Gorestorm cannon).

So, it will push up the board with the LOS, venomcrawlers, hellbrutes with the two HQ sticking near the LOS to provide it with support.

Its packing the following high strength guns:

12 shots of Str 8 Gatling cannon (LOS)
3D3 shots of Str 9 Gorestorm Cannon (LOS)
9+3D3 shots of Str 10 (from Vindicators)
3 shots of Str 8 (from Vindicators)
6 shots of Str 8 (from Hellbrutes)
12 shots of Str 6 (From Venomcrawlers).

And the Master of possession and warpsmith will repair the LOS every turn, give it +1 to hit, increase its toughness to T9, give it a 4++ Invul save ... Thats... a lot of buffs. lol

Iron Warriors is probably the best legion for this type of army.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 10:01:29


Post by: Tyel


I kind of feel deepstriking Oblits feels old fashioned. If its the bottom of turn 2, your opponent has had a lot of time to shape the board so you can't put them anywhere good. Equally making an unbuffed 9" charge isn't reliable.

Thinking from a CoB perspective - if you liked Oblits, I'm not sure why you wouldn't take say a Hellbrute with MM & power scourge. Its 20 points more - but the shooting is about the same. (Oblits more flexible - but I don't think the lower powered shots would usually be worth the points.) In melee its 8 attacks (S8 AP-2 2 damage) compared with 4 attacks (S11 AP-3 2 damage) and I feel 8 T7 3+ AOC with minus 1 damage wounds is probably harder to chew through than 5 T5 2+/5++ AOC wounds. Outside of CoB the fist is probably a better shout as the Power Scourge doesn't hit S8 (unless you break out the mark of Khorne, which is possibly pricy). The fist may just be better anyway depending on your meta. Being Core the Hellbrutes also benefit from most buffs and reroll 1s to wound if they have taken any damage.

Mark of Tzeentch is perhaps worth looking at (although at 125 points I think a more significant gap on the Oblits 90 is adding up). Tend to agree on the line that yes, you can spray these sort of things with bolter fire, but its not terribly efficient so arguably its still having an effect to reduce your opponents output. Especially on Terminators. Every time you absorb a lascannon/melta/thunderhammer hit etc, its paid for itself.

The sideline is recovering Oblits with Pact of Flesh - but I have a suspicion it will end up nerfed, because getting a 90 point model back is a bit crazy and GW have gone "oh wait woops" when we've seen similar in the past.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 10:50:06


Post by: blood reaper


I'm interested to see how Noise Marines pan out. I have two squads with a Blastmaster each and a full compliment of Sonic Blasters. The improved statline of the Blastmaster seems to be *excellent*.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 15:09:26


Post by: p5freak


Do rubric marines with warpflamers get let the galaxy burn, or not ? A unit of 10 doing 10D6+20 autohits sounds hilarious.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 15:22:00


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 p5freak wrote:
Do rubric marines with warpflamers get let the galaxy burn, or not ? A unit of 10 doing 10D6+20 autohits sounds hilarious.

Seems like they do.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 16:09:33


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


EviscerationPlague wrote:
Seems like they do.


There are no Rubrics in this book, TS only. Woops, nm, missed the Slaves to Darkness part, ugh, that's still really terrible. They really don't want you to take cult marines outside of their home legion.

"fallen, Berserkers, Rubrics, and Plague Marines have been removed from this book."

https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-chaos-space-marines-review-9th-part-3-the-datasheets/

Noise Marines, that's it, also, they never get a legion trait except EC.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 17:16:01


Post by: ph34r


I thought someone mentioned taking cult troops as Elites in from the other books, is there actually a way to do that or nah?

I converted up a little squad of iron warrior plague marines and my friend has iron warrior khorne berserkers. It would be a shame if they were also casualties of this book along with my jump lord and my friend's combi-bolter+chainsword chosen that took half a year to build.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 17:38:28


Post by: Sasori


 ph34r wrote:
I thought someone mentioned taking cult troops as Elites in from the other books, is there actually a way to do that or nah?

I converted up a little squad of iron warrior plague marines and my friend has iron warrior khorne berserkers. It would be a shame if they were also casualties of this book along with my jump lord and my friend's combi-bolter+chainsword chosen that took half a year to build.


You can, there is a specific rule that allows this. They never gain a legion trait, but do get let the galaxy burn. So warpflamers with +2 hits are a go.

What will be real intreasting is if they FAQ you to allow the Icon keyword for these units. The Icon in CSM would be -1 Ap for the warpflamers, meaning you get get +2 hit, -3 AP warpflamers for very cheap.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 17:50:19


Post by: Thariinye


For Terminators, an option might actually be to give them the Mark of Slaanesh - not only do you get always fights first, but if you're running a Slaanesh psyker of some kind, you'll also have Delightful Agonies as an extra power. A 5+++ on a block of 10 terminators that get a free interrupt when charged, and which are also escorting some fighty character like Abaddon (don't even need to be running Black Legion for this), a DP, or a Lord Discordant, is no joke. It's not quite Blightlord/Deathshroud brick without the -1D rule, but 5+++ really helps.

Secondly, if I'm remembering correctly, we can still absolutely take all of the Cult Troops regardless of which legion we're playing. From Goonhammer's review (Part 1):

Do not despair, however – you can still bring your Khorne Berserkers, Plague Marines and Rubricae along. The Slaves to Darkness rule lays out how, plus makes Noise Marines and the Emperor’s Children work analagously to the special Marines from the other three god-specific legions..

Basically, for any of these units, you can use the datasheet from the relevant Codex as an Elites option, with a few restrictions (right now Berzerkers come from this month’s White Dwarf). You have to pay the points to upgrade them to have the relevant Mark of Chaos (see later), their Keywords get shuffled around so they make sense with the rest of the army, and they don’t gain your Legion Trait (Rubricae also have to use the powers from Dark Hereticus from this book). However, they do still get the <Legion> Keyword, and do gain the Chaos Space Marine pure army ability Let the Galaxy Burn. That means they’re still eligible for combination with Stratagems and Auras (as all these units are CORE), and get some extra hits with the right kind of weapons to boot.

For Noise Marines, these same rules apply if you’re taking them in any Legion other than Emperor’s Children, but when you do go full Fulgrim they become Troops and can gain a Legion trait.

Will need to read the book itself to see exactly what they mean by getting <Legion> while not getting a legion trait for buffs that require your own legion, and whether marks buff up the cult troops or whether it's just a tax, but as far as I can tell it's perfectly viable to still be taking cult troops, and honestly with how pushed Plague Marines have been with the points update they could conceivably fit into the same role as like Chosen.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 20:54:27


Post by: p5freak


I dont know the exact rules, only leaks, but i have a feeling we will see lists with cult troops, because they are far better than legionaries. Plague marines are far more resilient with T5 and damage reduction. They are NURGLE HERETIC ASTARTES and can benefit from CSM buffs. Rubric marines are resilient with all is dust, armour of contempt, have AP-2 bolters, and the psyker is already built in, for pretty much the same cost as legionaries with a psyker.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 20:55:51


Post by: EviscerationPlague


I'm just gonna wait for the errata on how Icons work.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 20:57:23


Post by: p5freak


Icons are not needed for rubrics, they are already superior to legionaries. I even expect GW to remove the possbility of taking cult troops, because they are too good.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 21:57:09


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 p5freak wrote:
Icons are not needed for rubrics, they are already superior to legionaries. I even expect GW to remove the possbility of taking cult troops, because they are too good.

It's not NEEDED but it's what I WANT hahaha


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 22:42:45


Post by: H.B.M.C.


It's just weird that you need to buy marks for Cult Troops.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 23:03:52


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's just weird that you need to buy marks for Cult Troops.


The list of weird design choices in this codex is mind boggling. They're Core, but they don't get the legion trait, but they're <Legion>, the whole thing is just bizarre. It's like some weird mercenary rule, on top of that, marks can only be given to Undivided units, so technically, it's illegal to field them until GW releases errata addressing that bit of brilliant rules writing.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/29 23:46:48


Post by: Insularum


p5freak wrote:Icons are not needed for rubrics, they are already superior to legionaries. I even expect GW to remove the possbility of taking cult troops, because they are too good.

If icons from other codices are FAQ'd to work properly, Rubrics become one of the stronger options even with the no-legion nerf, as they would get the extra AP as well as the +2 shots per warpflamer so would be extremely good.

Eldenfirefly wrote:Looks like a great list, Sasori ! Share with us here on this thread how it turns out!

On a separate note, I read that you can make an absolute monster out of a Master of Executions by giving him a relic daemon weapon, or/and a warlord trait. He can be a real Mortal Wounds monster. But he is a glass cannon though because he doesn't have a invul save. Unless you want to give him the relic Gorget of Eternal Hate, which gives the bearer a +1 armor save and a 4++ invul. But that would means spending 3CP just to equip out one character, which sounds like a lot.

Anyway, if you just want a glass cannon. He can be equipped with the daemon weapon Ul'o'cca the black, which makes his weapon - every successful wound deal a MW extra. At a base, he is already doing 6 attacks with Str 7, AP3, Dmg 2, and 6s to hit do 2 MW. And he already rerolls wounds against characters. So, just with this alone, you are probably going to kill most characters with tons of MW.

If its not enough MW, you can add on flames of spite. So now, you reroll wounds on everything and 6s to wound cause 1 extra MW. lol Alternatively, you can go hatred incarnate for +1A, +1S and you now reroll hits all the time. So you can reroll all of your 7 Str 8 hits to fish for 2MW each hit, and if you are in Wanton Slaughter, 6s also explode for more hits lol.

And all this for just 65 points. Hmm... I wonder if there is a possible list where we spam three of these things, because they are only an elite choice. So, they don't even take up a HQ slot.

MoE might be a bit of a trap to upgrade in any meaningful way, his base axe cutting out on any 6's to hit will reduce the benefits from daemon weapon/flames of spite upgrades - but for 65 points he's pretty solid as is


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/30 01:50:26


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 p5freak wrote:
Icons are not needed for rubrics, they are already superior to legionaries. I even expect GW to remove the possbility of taking cult troops, because they are too good.


Nah, I don't think they will. (I hope they don't). The cult troops will always be superior to legionaires because they are elite choices. Only in Emperor's children are noise marines troop choices and I bet they will eventually get their own book and then become an elite choices too. So, honestly, unless we are talking about Emperor's Children, if we are playing all the other CSM legions, then we should be comparing cult troops with our other elite slot units, like Chosen, possessed, Terminators.

When I started looking at it this way, I realised I should stop trying to compare legionaries to things like plague marines, or chosen because they are in a totally different slot. Honestly, we are spoilt for choice when it comes to elite slots. Including the cult troops, we have 7 infantry type units in elite slots. Pretty sure we can find the particular type of elite choice infantry that suits our purpose. And thus, the troop slot becomes a "tax" simply because there is no way legionaires can ever be as good as our elite slot infantry. However, troops can be used to play the mission. Keep the troop units cheap and use them to do actions (which will be wasted on our powerful expensive elite slot units). Use them for mission objectives like Retrieve Nihilim data, any any type of action objective. Or use their objective secured ability to capture objectives. In fact, our troops may end up winning the most amount of victory points for us despite being the weakest infantry units in our army.

With that being said. We then kind of want to keep our troops either cheap but durable, or just cheap. lol There really is no point expending points trying to make them "better". If we want power, use our elite units to do the heavy lifting. (and our heavy support and fast attack choices too).

There is literally no way to improve a legionaire squad until it becomes as good as a rubric marine squad, or a plague marine squad, or a berserker squad. So, don't try. Just bring a cult marine squad in the elite slot if you want to. This also kind of means that Chosen, despite their improvements in their datasheet, are hard pressed to make it into an army list. There is just too much competition for good infantry choices in the elite slots (There are like seven!).

I do think that when it comes to match play. We need to seriously think about how we are going to get victory points. There are other armies out there with relatively easy secondaries. After looking through the chapter approved book, I realise we really need to plan for our secondaries. No point rocking up to a game, killing a lot of our opponent's army, and still losing because of low VP.

Our CSM secondaries are not great, and they need quite a bit of planning if you want to take them. And if we don't, that means we need to plan for taking one of the generic secondaries. Let me give an example of how we can even shoot ourselves in the foot if we just pick our own faction secondary without thinking it through. Take the CSM secondary "The Long War". This was a good secondary for us previously when we were 1W marines. We would charge onto an objective, kill everything on it and take it from our opponent. And we would be so fragile our opponent would easily kill us off our objective and take it from us again. So, we would keep on trading that objectives and that in itself plus taking the "Stranglehold" secondary would get us high points on both.

But now, there is no more "stranglehold" secondary. Its gone. And, now, our units are much more durable now. In fact, we can make a 10 man chaos terminator bloc that is as hard to kill as any of the other feared tanky blocs like Blightlords or scarab occult terminators bloc. This actually makes it outright BAD to take "the long war". Because we would take the objective with our terminator bloc (plus Abaddon), and we would hold it! While this is good for our primary, its bad for the long war. We could end up scoring low points on this objective.

I notice also that some of our objectives allow us to use biker units to perform the action. This actually means that instead of trying to get a slow moving infantry unit to do that action. We can have a biker unit zip 14 inches onto that point, and then perform the action. Like the black legion secondary "despoil the dominions" or the CSM "For the dark gods" can both be done by biker units. This actually makes me consider having a mark of nurgle biker unit which I can then do "grandfatherly blessings on". Such a tanky unit with transhuman has a good option of surviving while doing the action and it has the mobility to zip from point to point. So, suddenly a chaos biker unit is something I am seriously considering for one of the FA slots in my list.

If we don't want to look at our CSM secondaries, we then need to plan how to get two or three of the generic ones. And this is not easy too, because we have to then plan to get high points on generic secondaries. As an example. Let's say we pick a long time favourite shadow operations category called "Retrieve N data". This only gives 8VP now for capturing 3 and 12VP for capturing 4. If we are planning to take this secondary often, we might as well take 2 or 3 cultist troops units and strategic reserve them so that they can come in from the table edge and get us our VP for this secondary. Then we will be taking few if any legionaires. Bikers can do this too. So again, that nurgle mark bike unit that can zip onto the last fourth table quarter and do the action is really good now.

We should consider the warpcraft category secondaries too. We can make a big block of terminator tanky, marching up the board, and a psyker in that bloc performing warp ritual or mental interrogate is great! Our psykers are too good not to take. People are saying master of possession will be in almost every list. However! all the psychic secondaries require a psyker character to do actions. We cannot use an aspiring champion with a balefire tome to do our psychic secondary. A big consideration point... it is because the malefic discipline is so good, hence why people say the MOP is a must have. This means we want the MOP to cast his psychics every turn, we do NOT want to waste him performing a warpcraft psychic. This means that we need to plan to have a separate character that will be doing such a psychic action (like warp ritual or mental interrogate) instead of our MOP (unless we area ready to spend 1 CP every turn to have him cast one psychic and do one action). So, when planning our lists now, we need to designate a separate "warpcraft action" character, be it another sorcerer, or a Daemon Prince.

Now ignoring the kill secondaries, because that is opponent list dependent. there is also the battlefield supremacy secondaries. There is only two in this slot, behind enemy lines and engage on all fronts. Engage is now harder to do, it needs to be 3 man infantry or vehicle. Planning for behind enemy lines and engage on all fronts may call for different lists. Behind enemy lines, we can have a big terminator block with a character deep strike into the back lines (This can be screened out). Or we can also have individual single obliterator units deep strike in (harder to screen out, but easier to kill than a big termie bloc and a character). Engage on all fronts would be good with fast mobile units that can spread out on different quarters to engage on all fronts, or cheap cultist units coming in from strategic reserve (take note that single obliterators cannot score engage). I read that a qualifying engage unit is one that has at least a starting Strength of 3 models or vehicle/monster. This is big because it means that a 3 man bike can do engage and even if its killed down to 1 bike, it can still do engage! Again, we need to plan to have units in fast attack slots or units coming in from strategic reserve. Also how we play our fast units is different. We need them alive, we don't want to run them up the board, score engage one turn, and then have them blown up and that's it. Again, Nurgle or Tzeetch marked biker units are now looking extremely interesting. They can take a table quarter for engage, while they are doing an action for another secondary, and we can pop grandfather's blessing to give them transhuman to keep them alive.

I have now gone from not planning to have chaos bikers in my list to now thinking that at least one unit of a nurgle/Tzeentch biker unit is a must have. Maybe even more than one unit. Ultimately, if its match play, no point killing our opponent if we then lose on VP because of bad secondary play.

And the roles we have in mind for our characters change once we consider all these secondaries play. Like if we are relying on our Daemon Prince for our warpcraft secondary, then we need him alive, we can't risk flying him recklessly deep into the enemy army lines to assassinate a character.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/30 02:10:58


Post by: dominuschao


Read all the leaks. Seems like someone might like the new chaos, but I'm just not feeling it. Pretty sad about it but I guess that's why I own other armies. GL I'll check back in on chaos in XI edition.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/30 02:55:06


Post by: Eldenfirefly


For their points, Plague Marines are the cheapest elite infantry we can spend to get all sorts of special weapons. What was GW thinking when they did this to plague marines lol.

A 10 man plague marine squad plus mark of nurgle only cost 225 points. These can be given tons of special weapon upgrades all for free. And its super durable too because they still retain disgustingly resilient correct?

So, does this mean they get both the Mark of Nurgle rule as well as their disgustingly resilient rule? Str 5 weapons are going to be -1 to wound on them, and they have -1 dmg on top of that!

And they still benefit from being Core and Let the galaxy burn (based on the goonhammer article yes they do). So, given their diverse range of special weapons, no matter what wanton phase we are in, something in the squad will benefit from it lol.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/30 21:29:28


Post by: Thariinye


Looking further through this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH2lSGQOWko) to check out actual rules, and some good things.

1) The Cult Demagogue in the Dark Commune is a character, and the Look Out, Sir rule actually protects the entire unit - LOS requires only that the unit 'contain any character models <9W' and then the whole unit can't get shot if it's being protected. So the Commune isn't going to get shot off the board immediately, other units can take the shots. Still probably not that great, but it does let you cram Prescience + Dark Zealotry (or other niche powers/prayers) into a single unit for 100 points that would cost 190 to take as power-armored guys.

2) Let the Galaxy Burn works on warpflame weapons because the definition of Flame Weapons in the codex refers to any weapon that has the word 'flame' in its profile. So a 10-strong rubric marine unit does 27 autohits at minimum if all the rubrics have flamers, and on average does almost 50 S4 autohits at AP-2. Even though they don't gain your legion trait, they do gain your legion keyword, so all of your legion-keyed buffs work on them. The Sorcerer can know Warptime by default, so Advance + Warptime can get a 24+d6" threat range. I play Alpha Legion, so with the pre-game move that gets you up to 30+d6" threat range on Turn 1. Even though it looks like they can't gain the Icon keyword for the extra AP without errata, that's still quite a reasonable threat. And you can use VotLW on them for +1 to wound, or the Great Sorcerer to get action + psychic power.

Or, if you equip the Rubrics with bolters, even though you don't get the Icon, you can use the new Demon Shells strat to give them an extra 6" of range AND a further -1 AP, so now you've got AP-3 bolters, and you can juice that up further with Relentless Devastation to get full rapid-fire out to 30". Honestly, it seems like Rubrics are one of the better units to take buffs. They'll be very command point hungry, but it feels like they're one of the better ranged anti-infantry options we've got.

3) And speaking of Warptime, even though it's nerfed, I still think it'll be very useful for a few other units as well. A fully kitted Plague Marine Squad with 2 Blight Launchers and 3 Plasmaguns (one on the champ) can be moved up much faster than in a Death Guard army, and therefore can be used more effectively as a bullying tool. Unfortunately they don't get Inexorable Advance (not in a Death Guard detachment) so their output won't be as great and they are affected by difficult terrain.

4) Between Rubric Sorcerers, the Dark Commune, and the Balefire Tome, there's a lot of ways to get a bunch of random psykers into the army, so it might be worthwhile to go for a secondary like Psychic Interrogation. You can easily build your army to have enough redundancy in psykers so that you're not losing the spells you need on the turns you need them.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/06/30 21:38:44


Post by: Rogerio134134


Looking forward to trying the new codex! I've painted my thousand sons and CSM in the same scheme so I can inter change units as well which is cool.

Definitely running Abby with some terminators then sprinkling loads of venom crawlers, possessed etc in there oh and definitely a disco lord


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 00:33:37


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Thariinye wrote:
Looking further through this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH2lSGQOWko) to check out actual rules, and some good things.

1) The Cult Demagogue in the Dark Commune is a character, and the Look Out, Sir rule actually protects the entire unit - LOS requires only that the unit 'contain any character models <9W' and then the whole unit can't get shot if it's being protected. So the Commune isn't going to get shot off the board immediately, other units can take the shots. Still probably not that great, but it does let you cram Prescience + Dark Zealotry (or other niche powers/prayers) into a single unit for 100 points that would cost 190 to take as power-armored guys.

2) Let the Galaxy Burn works on warpflame weapons because the definition of Flame Weapons in the codex refers to any weapon that has the word 'flame' in its profile. So a 10-strong rubric marine unit does 27 autohits at minimum if all the rubrics have flamers, and on average does almost 50 S4 autohits at AP-2. Even though they don't gain your legion trait, they do gain your legion keyword, so all of your legion-keyed buffs work on them. The Sorcerer can know Warptime by default, so Advance + Warptime can get a 24+d6" threat range. I play Alpha Legion, so with the pre-game move that gets you up to 30+d6" threat range on Turn 1. Even though it looks like they can't gain the Icon keyword for the extra AP without errata, that's still quite a reasonable threat. And you can use VotLW on them for +1 to wound, or the Great Sorcerer to get action + psychic power.

Or, if you equip the Rubrics with bolters, even though you don't get the Icon, you can use the new Demon Shells strat to give them an extra 6" of range AND a further -1 AP, so now you've got AP-3 bolters, and you can juice that up further with Relentless Devastation to get full rapid-fire out to 30". Honestly, it seems like Rubrics are one of the better units to take buffs. They'll be very command point hungry, but it feels like they're one of the better ranged anti-infantry options we've got.

3) And speaking of Warptime, even though it's nerfed, I still think it'll be very useful for a few other units as well. A fully kitted Plague Marine Squad with 2 Blight Launchers and 3 Plasmaguns (one on the champ) can be moved up much faster than in a Death Guard army, and therefore can be used more effectively as a bullying tool. Unfortunately they don't get Inexorable Advance (not in a Death Guard detachment) so their output won't be as great and they are affected by difficult terrain.

4) Between Rubric Sorcerers, the Dark Commune, and the Balefire Tome, there's a lot of ways to get a bunch of random psykers into the army, so it might be worthwhile to go for a secondary like Psychic Interrogation. You can easily build your army to have enough redundancy in psykers so that you're not losing the spells you need on the turns you need them.



Point 1 and 4) I hadn't looked so closely at this HQ unit yet because the models are not even out. But you are right, it has amazing utility. I will seriously consider using this. I was initially really happy because I wanted a cheap psyker character to do a warpcraft secondary like Mental Interrogate or Warp Ritual. The Dark Commune now stuck me as the perfect unit for it. However, my hopes seems to be dashed later when I read more closely and realised that only the Cult Demogogue is a character. Now this is a plus because you don't give up tons of easy Assasinate points. But on the flip side, Mental Interrogate and warp ritual both require psyker characters.

This is my biggest problem right now. Dark Commune, an aspiring champion with balefire tome, or even a rubric marine aspiring sorceror. These can all cast psychic but they are NOT characters! So, none of these three can actually perform mental interrogate or psychic ritual... Someone correct me if I am wrong. But that's how I understand this. And this is rather a big issue, because we don't have faction secondaries which are super easy to score, so having the option to do warpcraft secondaries is pretty important for us. This is especially because our psykers are too good not to take, which means we can't take abhor the witch. This means we really should try and take a warpcraft secondary if we can (since we are bringing psykers anyway). But it goes back to a point I made in my previous posts. I seriously do not want to take a sorceror or master of possession and have him perform a psychic action secondary.

Points 2 and 3). I think Rubric marines are a great consideration for our army. I hadn't done the math so closely on them, but now that I think of it. 10D6+20 flamer hits sound absolutely disgusting. And this are auto hit too. lol Seriously, we have just so many good choices in our elite slots. Lucky we can take 6 elite choices in a battalion. (Where are we even going to find the points...) And I agree with your excellent points. Warptime is going to be sick on flamer Rubric Marines.

I also think people are sleeping on Alpha legion somewhat. The ability to redeploy 3 alpha legion units before the battle start, plus the ability to scout move one or more units 9 inches before battle start is huge. This is the only CSM legion that can do this. There is a matchplay mission where you don't gain CP if you are not on an objective in no man's land. Alpha legion is the only CSM legion that won't be disadvantaged on this mission.

BTW, can I check? If we bring a rubric marine squad, can the psyker aspiring sorceror cast warptime on another legion infantry unit? Or can they only cast warptime on themselves. Don't know if there are any weird keyword restrictions in this case. I mean, a black legion rubric marine squad is still black legion right? So their warptime should work on other black legion units?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 03:47:22


Post by: p5freak


Yes, rubric marines get <LEGION>, they can cast their psychic powers on any other CSM unit in your army.
GW is definetely going to nerf cult troops somehow.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 09:02:39


Post by: Snugiraffe


Eldenfirefly wrote:
I seriously do not want to take a sorceror or master of possession and have him perform a psychic action secondary.


I get that we'll be wanting our MoPs to cast their powers, but why not take a Sorceror for the psychic actions? The Sorceror's powers can be made available elsewhere and one of our Sorceror's strengths lies in the two DTW attempts he gets in the enemy's psychic phase.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 10:53:03


Post by: Krusha


I like the idea of a Slaanesh Daemon Prince with rapacious talons and “stimulated by pain” and intoxicating elixir (I believe there is a stratagem to put two relics on a character). The amount of attacks will be absolutely crazy, and if he injures himself with his daemon weapon he will get even more


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 12:56:53


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Snugiraffe wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
I seriously do not want to take a sorceror or master of possession and have him perform a psychic action secondary.


I get that we'll be wanting our MoPs to cast their powers, but why not take a Sorceror for the psychic actions? The Sorceror's powers can be made available elsewhere and one of our Sorceror's strengths lies in the two DTW attempts he gets in the enemy's psychic phase.


Yeah, it seems like at this point we have to. Because the kill secondaries are not always reliable (depends on matchup). So having warpcraft secondaries as an option is important. I just feel like its a bit of a waste that instead of casting two psychic, we are getting our sorceror to just perform 1 psychic action. We could spend a command point for great sorceror to have him cast a psychic and do an action, but that would require he be mark of tzeentch plus using command points which are precious these days.

We also have to build in some redundancy because if we are planning to use this sorceror just for doing psychic secondaries, that means we can't rely on the psychic that he does have.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 13:09:36


Post by: p5freak


I am considering two MoPs, one for psychic actions. He can get +4 to psychic tests, +1 from venomcrawler, +2 from sacrifial dagger, and +1 from a relic.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 13:13:38


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 p5freak wrote:
I am considering two MoPs, one for psychic actions. He can get +4 to psychic tests, +1 from venomcrawler, +2 from sacrifial dagger, and +1 from a relic.


Yeah, +4 to cast is wild. It does require using the sacrificial dagger though, and since we can't use it on cultists, that means we have a 66% chance of killing a 18 point legionare. lol

A terminator sorceror is not bad too. He can take chaos familiar for just 5 points, and shoot too. The first time he miscast and you need to use the chaos familiar for the reroll, that's 1 command point saved. 5 points in exchange for 1 command point is so good. He is also much tankier, which makes him a good combatant. He can also have the option to use a force sword instead of a force staff. Cast diabolic strength on him in a pinch and he goes up to 7 attacks at Str7 with a force weapon doing D3 damage each. That's nothing to sneeze at. And a black legion Termi sorceror will hit on WS2s when he charges. People are in for a nasty surprise if they think our sorceror cannot fight! lol


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 13:26:39


Post by: EightFoldPath


Daemon Princes with 1 cast are good psychic secondary choices. They tend to be more aggressive/survivable so get up close in the early turns. In the later turns, when the DP has died, you probably don't have as many full sized units left to cast buff spells on, so you can just do the secondary with the Sorc/MoP if the points matter.

I don't think they will nerf Rubrics and the other cult marines (but I believe their Icons will be left as is so they don't work with CSM). They are good but expensive. And most of the Legion traits are very strong (lol Night Lords) so you do miss them when you lose them.

Abbaddon is on the nerf chopping block. As is the -1 to wound relic that goes on a unit (it will probably just get taken off the list that can go on a unit champion in the first FAQ).

Other than that all the main data sheets seem to be in the good but not too good area.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 13:27:45


Post by: Eldenfirefly


There are too many good relics we can take. Not to mention good warlord traits as well... And to compound that problem, we have good strategems to use too. Sigh.... tough tough decisions...

A CSM army is going to be very fun to play in a crusade game, where relics and warlord traits all don't cost CP and are instead built up with requisition points and experience. And if you face an opponent with a higher crusade points army than yours, you get even more CP to use on strategems!

Matchplay though.... wow, we are going to feel the pinch. BTW, GW clarified? How do we treat named characters like Abaddon in Matchplay? Do we have to pay CP for his relics and his warlord traits?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 13:28:01


Post by: EightFoldPath


Any thoughts on the rules wording for the MoP +2 to cast from the dagger. Can you choose to use it after you see your roll?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 13:41:02


Post by: Eldenfirefly


EightFoldPath wrote:
Daemon Princes with 1 cast are good psychic secondary choices. They tend to be more aggressive/survivable so get up close in the early turns. In the later turns, when the DP has died, you probably don't have as many full sized units left to cast buff spells on, so you can just do the secondary with the Sorc/MoP if the points matter.

I don't think they will nerf Rubrics and the other cult marines (but I believe their Icons will be left as is so they don't work with CSM). They are good but expensive. And most of the Legion traits are very strong (lol Night Lords) so you do miss them when you lose them.

Abbaddon is on the nerf chopping block. As is the -1 to wound relic that goes on a unit (it will probably just get taken off the list that can go on a unit champion in the first FAQ).

Other than that all the main data sheets seem to be in the good but not too good area.


Yeah, I agree that DPs are good. They are very expensive in points though. It feels like Abaddon is already too good not to take. So, if we are also taking a MOP and a flying DP. That's almost 600 points into characters alone. Our army is going to be smaller considering we are only spending 1400 points on it. Let's give Abaddon a month or two before we talk about whether he should get nerfed. Right now, he is carrying a lot of the CSM armies on his shoulders. The rest of our CSM datasheets are actually not super fantastic. I don't really see anything so powerful I would want to spam. I mean, Venomcrawlers are good because they are cheap, not because they are so OP three of them are going to destroy everything. (And we need some bikes for the option to do some of the secondaries). And terminators... well, lots of armies all have 3W terminators with armor of contempt. Its not the terminator bloc that is so scary, its that Abaddon is likely marching up alongside the terminator bloc that makes that entire force super scary. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EightFoldPath wrote:
Any thoughts on the rules wording for the MoP +2 to cast from the dagger. Can you choose to use it after you see your roll?


I have seen leaks but I don't have the actual book yet. What's the exact wording on this sacrificial dagger?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 13:55:20


Post by: p5freak


Eldenfirefly wrote:


Yeah, +4 to cast is wild. It does require using the sacrificial dagger though, and since we can't use it on cultists, that means we have a 66% chance of killing a 18 point legionare. lol


So what ? Bring him back with pact of flesh


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EightFoldPath wrote:
Any thoughts on the rules wording for the MoP +2 to cast from the dagger. Can you choose to use it after you see your roll?


No, because after the psychic test roll the attempt is over. The dagger is used when attempting the psychic power.

Spoiler:


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 13:57:50


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 p5freak wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:


Yeah, +4 to cast is wild. It does require using the sacrificial dagger though, and since we can't use it on cultists, that means we have a 66% chance of killing a 18 point legionare. lol


So what ? Bring him back with pact of flesh


Well.. only on turn 1 if you go first. lol I am sure after that, there will be far better units you can cast pact of flesh on to heal and bring back a model.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 13:58:07


Post by: Curze08


Loving what I've seen of the new codex so far for the faction overall. But I do feel like Night Lords got kind of screwed this edition.

1/ Both their Legion traits are situational. All other legions got two traits that are always on and army wide and are not affected by their opponents attributes. NLs -2 leadership is always on and army wide but with a -3 cap anything with 8 or 9+ leadership will basically not be effected as the 2nd part of the trait and many of the Night Lords best abilities rely on leadership 5 or less so pretty situational and/or opponent dependent. Leadership manipulation or attrition modifiers are generally pretty meh anyway...ugh!
2/ Many of the Night Lords Stratagems, Relics and Warlord traits are focused on melee, but they lost the ability for Lords/Sorcerers to support their melee units like Raptors and Warp Talons (no jump packs). Daemon prince is pretty much the only option now as termi lords are too slow. In addition they lost the strat that gives 3d6 charge from deep strike so overall their melee capability has been hit pretty hard (no pun intended).
3/ A lot of the coolest new stuff is based around cultists, MoP, Daemonkin and Daemon Engines but of course in the fluff Night Lords don't really roll with any of this stuff so none of their strats and other abilities support this new hotness in any way.

So as a Night Lords player the new codex is bittersweet for me :(

If I'm missing something please correct me so I can get more excited for the boys in Midnight Clad...




Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 14:24:21


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Curze08 wrote:
Loving what I've seen of the new codex so far for the faction overall. But I do feel like Night Lords got kind of screwed this edition.

1/ Both their Legion traits are situational - most other legions got at least 1 part of their traits that are army wide, always on or both. And some like Word Bearers and Red Corsairs got two traits that are always on and army wide. Ok, -2 leadership is always on and army wide but with a -3 cap anything with 8 or 9+ leadership will basically not be effected as many of the Night Lords best abilities rely on leadership 5 or less.
2/ Many of the Night Lords Stratagems, Relics and Warlord traits are focused on melee, but they lost the ability for Lords/Sorcerers to support their melee units like Raptors and Warp Talons (no jump packs).
3/ A lot of the coolest new stuff is based around cultists, Daemonkin and Daemon Engines but of course in the fluff Night Lords don't really roll with any of this stuff so none of their strats and other abilities support this new hotness in any way. In addition they lost the strat that gives 3d6 charge from deep strike so overall their melee capability has been hit pretty hard (no pun intended).

So as a Night Lords player the new codex is bittersweet :(

If I'm missing something please correct me so I can get more excited for the boys in Midnight Clad...


I haven't look so closely at Night Lords because my first love is black legion. But I will give it a try. Sorry if I am wrong because I am not really a Night Lords player.

On point 1, it feels like rather than trying to build for it. The idea is to smash into your opponent in melee and inflict severe damage. Then he would automatically have to take morale at a -2 and combat attrition. I mean, not every army is custodes with Ld 11. The typical space marine squad is Ld8, and that gets brought down to Ld 6 once the Nightlord trait triggers. So just inflict severe damage and let them take leadership checks to fail morale and have models run away? Try not to go for overkilling a unit. (Might need a lot of practise to get this right though).

On point 2. Well, unfortunately we can't reverse that now. The codex is already out and we know those are now no longer a thing. We will need to rely on a flying Daemon Prince, and maybe deep striking terminator lords/sorcerors or fast moving Lord Discordants. :(

On point 3. Looking at the Night lords strategems and relics. They buff fast moving melee units. So bring 3 big squads of fast attack? (Be it raptors or warptalons or bikes). 2 max squad of warp talons and 1 max squad of bikes is a lot of points (around 900?). I guess the rest can be driven up in Rhinos or deep struck in. I kind of like the idea of luring the enemy in towards your lines, and then surrounding them in a pincer attack with deep strike units, warp talons and bikes. Seems like what Night Lords would do.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 14:42:02


Post by: Curze08


I haven't look so closely at Night Lords because my first love is black legion. But I will give it a try. Sorry if I am wrong because I am not really a Night Lords player.

On point 1, it feels like rather than trying to build for it. The idea is to smash into your opponent in melee and inflict severe damage. Then he would automatically have to take morale at a -2 and combat attrition. I mean, not every army is custodes with Ld 11. The typical space marine squad is Ld8, and that gets brought down to Ld 6 once the Nightlord trait triggers.


Sure but its something that has limited application. I know many of the other legion traits have specific conditions to trigger but most of them seem to have much easier ways to make use of them and few if any of them are completely nullified by some armies/units.

On point 2. Well, unfortunately we can't reverse that now. The codex is already out and we know those are now no longer a thing. We will need to rely on a flying Daemon Prince, and maybe deep striking terminator lords/sorcerors or fast moving Lord Discordants. :(


Yep

On point 3. Looking at the Night lords strategems and relics. They buff fast moving melee units. So bring 3 big squads of fast attack? (Be it raptors or warptalons or bikes). 2 max squad of warp talons and 1 max squad of bikes is a lot of points (around 900?). I guess the rest can be driven up in Rhinos or deep struck in. I kind of like the idea of luring the enemy in towards your lines, and then surrounding them in a pincer attack with deep strike units, warp talons and bikes. Seems like what Night Lords would do.


Sure, but pretty vanilla and does not interact any way with the coolest and most interesting stuff in the new codex.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 15:39:20


Post by: Thariinye


Didn’t catch that the psychic secondaries needed characters (if you can’t tell, haven’t actually played much recently) to pull off the actions. So that cuts out the balefire tome and the rubric sorcerer. However, if the nephilim language stays the same as Nachmund, the commune should still be able to do the actions. It says “psyker character unit” must do it, and the demagogue being a character makes the whole unit a character unit (see core clues about keywords). So the commune should still be go, even though the model casting powers isn’t the character!

I also have the forgeworld traitor librarian in terminator armor model, so I’d love for sorcerers to be good enough to take.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 16:06:21


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Thariinye wrote:
Didn’t catch that the psychic secondaries needed characters (if you can’t tell, haven’t actually played much recently) to pull off the actions. So that cuts out the balefire tome and the rubric sorcerer. However, if the nephilim language stays the same as Nachmund, the commune should still be able to do the actions. It says “psyker character unit” must do it, and the demagogue being a character makes the whole unit a character unit (see core clues about keywords). So the commune should still be go, even though the model casting powers isn’t the character!

I also have the forgeworld traitor librarian in terminator armor model, so I’d love for sorcerers to be good enough to take.


Hmm, you are right. It does say Psyker Character unit in Nephilim! This brings up possibilities! Very interesting!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm... have a question. Some of our codex relics like Blade of the Relentless reads "Each time an attack is made with this weapon, on an unmodified hit roll of 6, the target suffers 2 mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends."

So, how does this interact with Wanton Slaughter which gives exploding 6s on an unmodified 6 to hit?

So, when we do roll a 6 to hit in this case, do we get both inflict 2MW and an extra automatic hit? Or is it just 2MW only (no extra automatic hit) ?

Also, would like to say that I wish we had more CP. lol Blade of the Relentless on a Champion is very powerful. All our champions have 4 attacks base. This Blade of the Relentless if given to a Champion gives them 5 attacks with such a rule to inflict 2MW as well. Very nice! It can replace a power sword, and any Raptor/Chosen/terminator/legionaire/biker Champion can replace his weapon with a power sword. So we can use the "trophies of the Long war" strategem to give one of our Champion such a relic. The relic has a profile of Str +1, AP4 !! and Damage 2, and +1 attack. (Its already good but this additional rule pushes it to great!

We can use this strategem twice in a strike force army (2000 points).


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 18:50:20


Post by: Tyel


Can't see it happening - because Word Bearers had a joke trait for 5 years - but a campaign to change the Nightlords chapter tactic might have legs. We know GW have faqed things in the past.

Its probably unique in being potentially quite ludicrous into certain armies - and being utterly worthless versus others. For example big Knights are never going to be down to LD 5, never be at half strength and are never going to take a morale test.

Then by contrast (and its not meta etc) if someone ran blobs of 30 Boyz, you can fairly easily stick -3 LD on them, bringing them down to LD4, so you can kill just 3 for a 5/6 chance to fail morale. At which point 9-10 would run away. Which is a bit crazy really.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 21:30:57


Post by: EightFoldPath


Tyel wrote:
Its probably unique in being potentially quite ludicrous into certain armies - and being utterly worthless versus others. For example big Knights are never going to be down to LD 5, never be at half strength and are never going to take a morale test.

Then by contrast (and its not meta etc) if someone ran blobs of 30 Boyz, you can fairly easily stick -3 LD on them, bringing them down to LD4, so you can kill just 3 for a 5/6 chance to fail morale. At which point 9-10 would run away. Which is a bit crazy really.

Congratulations, you are now overqualified for the position of GW rules writer.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 21:56:46


Post by: Lord Blackscale


So, other than the chaincannon, what is the weapon of choice for Havoks? I was leaning toward missiles for the flexibility, but heavy bolters seem good too.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/01 22:10:27


Post by: JNAProductions


 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So, other than the chaincannon, what is the weapon of choice for Havoks? I was leaning toward missiles for the flexibility, but heavy bolters seem good too.
What's the price point of Heavy Bolters versus Chaincannons?

Because if they're the same statline as in 8th, the Chaincannon is better than the Heavy Bolter, always. The only advantage the Heavy Bolter has is range, but even if you have to move (and take a hit penalty-the ability to ignore that was removed from Havoks, right?) to hit with the Chaincannon but not the Heavy Bolter, you're looking at two D2 hits as compared to four D1 hits, all at the same Strength and AP.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/02 01:46:32


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So, other than the chaincannon, what is the weapon of choice for Havoks? I was leaning toward missiles for the flexibility, but heavy bolters seem good too.


I am going with Lascannons for mine. Its not the best anti-tank out there, but its damage profile is threatening enough that people will still want to try and take them out. And with armor of contempt and T5 now, they are harder to kill than what people expect as long as I keep them in cover. Abaddon can also give them on Turn 1 reroll all hits and wounds. That would make them more scary. (Assuming there are no other good targets for that command ability on turn 1).


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/02 02:06:27


Post by: Lord Blackscale


I will have 1 full squad of chaincannons. I will have enough to make 1 more squad with another weapon. I take it lascannon is the way to go then?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/02 03:07:42


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I will have 1 full squad of chaincannons. I will have enough to make 1 more squad with another weapon. I take it lascannon is the way to go then?


I guess its also how happy you are with the balance between anti-tank and anti-infantry weapons in your army. If you are black legion, on Turn 1, the chain cannon squad that get's Abbadon's full rerolls is going to be to be doing a ton of damage, even on vehicles. 32 shots with exploding 6s (because wanton destruction), reroll all hits and wounds... A full chain cannon Havoc squad will get 13 to 14 wounds through the saves of a T7 or T8 vehicle with a 3+ save. That will kill most standard vehicles. And this is against a profile that a chain cannon is not supposed to be that great against. But its 24 inches though, so on turn 1, there may not be any good vehicle targets within range. This is where the lascannon is more versatile because it has 48 inch range.

The Lascannon on the other hand, will only ever be good against elite infantry or vehicles or monsters. I do think a mix of both anti-infantry and anti-tank is good in your army. Like if you happens to face a deadly aircraft or a Magnus on turn 1 and you go first. Then you would be glad you at least had the Lascannons that can now shoot into it from 48 inches out. (He would place these away from your reaper chain cannons unless he under-estimated them).

Bear in mind though that we can only get exploding 6s on turn 1. Once turn 2 comes, we are now in wanton massacre so no more exploding 6s on heavy weapons. But then again, I am sure there will much more that we benefit in our armies from wanton massacre on turn 2, when most of the armies have all come out to play. (Turn 1, most of them may be hiding)


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/02 08:06:44


Post by: EightFoldPath


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So, other than the chaincannon, what is the weapon of choice for Havoks? I was leaning toward missiles for the flexibility, but heavy bolters seem good too.
What's the price point of Heavy Bolters versus Chaincannons?

The not power level but trying to be style points costing for the unit is 125 points per squad with Heavy Bolters, Havoc Autocannons (H2 7 -2 2) and 145 points per squad with Missile Launchers, Reaper Chaincannons or Lascannons (actually 5 points per one you add of each).

Mathematically, the Lascannons are the best damage into Tanks (T7 3+) and also AoC Terminators (T4 1+), while Chaincannons (and the cheaper Havoc Autocannons) are the same damage vs. both T4 1+ and T7 3+.

The Heavy Bolters are the worst option at all times, but are 20 points cheaper.

If you are taking the Terminator heavy build I've suggested is probably where many will end up, the Chaincannons do the same job as the Bolters.

If you go Possessed as your core unit and then take other combat units, then you might want the Chaincannons to clear out screens.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/02 09:46:01


Post by: Lord Blackscale


So which is best against Necrons? I know chaincannons are good for clearing them out, but the quicker I can kill a unit, the less stand up again. It sounds like I should go with lascannons again. Any reason to ever take missles?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/02 18:50:11


Post by: Thariinye


Thinking further about the Dark Commune, specifically what choices for prayers or powers are viable. You don't get any of the god-marked stuff, cause they can't be marked (no Chaos Undivided keyword), so it's just the first three prayers and first three powers.

Prayers:
-Benediction of Darkness sounds like it should be good, +1 saves from light cover + AoC can really help a unit survive, but unfortunately it's units wholly within 6" of the priest (all distances measured just from the priest) so you're really going to struggle getting any big good units wholly within. Like I wanted to use this on a block of 10 terminators or a Lord Discordant, but keeping them wholly within 6" of the priest model sounds too difficult to really try for.
-Litany of Despair is probably the best overall, though it's not that great - still, giving fight last isn't bad.
-Omen of Potency - no. Probably always a trap unless it's on like a Word Bearers Dark Apostle with relics and stuff.

So basically you're probably taking litany of despair or benediction of darkness, maybe casting benediction first turn or so, and then just using Dark Zealotry.

Powers:
-Infernal Gaze is a targetable smite, so if you want some extra mortal wounds, it's not bad. CSM have enough psykers to do a reasonable number of mortal wounds in this phase.
-Prescience is never bad. Hard to cast, but always a good effect.
-Diabolic Strength to me has too many restrictions - only usable on a single infantry or spawn model, so that means it's best used on infantry characters (would rather you could cast it on a DP or Lord Discordant). Really you want to use this on Abaddon, but you have to be Black Legion to do that.

So for powers it's probably Prescience to get redunancy, or Gaze if you either need or want more flexible mortal wound options.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/03 02:56:16


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Thariinye wrote:
Thinking further about the Dark Commune, specifically what choices for prayers or powers are viable. You don't get any of the god-marked stuff, cause they can't be marked (no Chaos Undivided keyword), so it's just the first three prayers and first three powers.

Prayers:
-Benediction of Darkness sounds like it should be good, +1 saves from light cover + AoC can really help a unit survive, but unfortunately it's units wholly within 6" of the priest (all distances measured just from the priest) so you're really going to struggle getting any big good units wholly within. Like I wanted to use this on a block of 10 terminators or a Lord Discordant, but keeping them wholly within 6" of the priest model sounds too difficult to really try for.
-Litany of Despair is probably the best overall, though it's not that great - still, giving fight last isn't bad.
-Omen of Potency - no. Probably always a trap unless it's on like a Word Bearers Dark Apostle with relics and stuff.

So basically you're probably taking litany of despair or benediction of darkness, maybe casting benediction first turn or so, and then just using Dark Zealotry.

Powers:
-Infernal Gaze is a targetable smite, so if you want some extra mortal wounds, it's not bad. CSM have enough psykers to do a reasonable number of mortal wounds in this phase.
-Prescience is never bad. Hard to cast, but always a good effect.
-Diabolic Strength to me has too many restrictions - only usable on a single infantry or spawn model, so that means it's best used on infantry characters (would rather you could cast it on a DP or Lord Discordant). Really you want to use this on Abaddon, but you have to be Black Legion to do that.

So for powers it's probably Prescience to get redunancy, or Gaze if you either need or want more flexible mortal wound options.


Yeah, but I feel that the Dark Commune is still great because if you take Dark Commune, then using the psyker to perform a psychic action so efficient because the spells aren't so essential or powerful like those the Master of possession has. And the prayer is still a prayer. So like you get to perform a prayer and do a psychic action all for 100 points. Whereas if you took a dark apostle, you can only perform a prayer (only world bearer's dark apostle can be made to do two prayers). Given the combat nature of CSM datasheets in 9th edition, Dark Zealotry is a ideal for us and its an aura that affects units (who don't need to be wholly within). So, that big unit of terminators will benefit from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lord Blackscale wrote:
So which is best against Necrons? I know chaincannons are good for clearing them out, but the quicker I can kill a unit, the less stand up again. It sounds like I should go with lascannons again. Any reason to ever take missles?


I think missile launchers is only good if you want the flexibility of being its two profiles. Otherwise, if you just want the anti-tank, then lascannons are better. Oh, there is also a missile strategem that does MW to flyers. But its super situational (you need to be facing flyers and just happen to have a missile launcher). Not sure it would be worth it to be honest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A side note on legionaries. I am finding that if you plan to send your legionaries up the board (and why wouldn't you). A power fist is more important than anything else, even marks. A legionaire unit with a power fist champ immediately can handle just about anything in combat Vehicles or high toughness stuff, and the power fist profile is great into marines with its AP3. The rest of the squad has enough attacks to handle 1W infantry just fine.

In contrast. Taking Marks seems to be only worth it for big units, because it makes a small minimum 5 unit so expensive if you start taking marks on that unit. Yet, if you are bringing a big 10 man... why aren't you just taking a 5 man elite infantry plus a 5 man barebones legionaire unit. It might be a little more points, but you get so much more. Plus two 5 man squads is definitely more versatile than one big unwieldy squad. If its for buffs, a lot of strategems are cheaper on small squads too (the nurgle transhuman one is a great example of that, its just 1 CP on a 5 min squad). And together, the 5 man elite plus 5 man legionaire will likely do better in fighting than a 10 man marked legionaire.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/03 06:01:50


Post by: BrainFireBob


No bonus CP for Abaddon or Huron.

No requirement to pay for a WL trait, though. They can be warlord without it.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/03 06:18:59


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I liked the additional CP for Red Corsairs when you took CSM.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/04 00:39:01


Post by: Eldenfirefly


I am really liking putting relics on our non-characters. Our aspiring champions have around 4 attacks usually and putting a relic sword or relic mace like black mace on even a legionaire champion instantly makes him a scary model in close combat. It suddenly makes even a 5 man legionaire unit scary if you get charged by it. And there are many good weapon relics you can put on champions.

Its also a good way to increase the lethality of a unit without having to spend more points on it. Like a 5 man raptor unit ... hmm, doesn't look so threatening. Give the champion in that unit a blade of the relentless and now, suddenly, its a unit that can mulch through a lot of stuff. And players who do not give such units enough respect will be surprised when it does get the charge in and does big damage.


Also... just throwing out something out here to flip things on its head. Have you guys tried making lists without Abaddon in it? It frees up 300 points! That's a lot! Plus Abaddon locks you into a certain sort of playstyle (if you are trying to make best use out of him). You are pretty much designing a significant part of your list around trying to get Abaddon into combat. It opens up the list building even more of you try designing a list without Abaddon.

Like I wouldn't be sure I want to put in a Daemon Prince if I am already running Abaddon unless I am playing herohammer because that's 500 points for just two characters already. But leaving out Abaddon, I would certainly strongly consider a flying DP and now I have more points left to put into other flying infantry units like warp talons or raptors. Now I have a jump pack wing that can swoop up one flank and apply strong pressure very quickly.

Abaddon also forces me into the "walk up the middle of the board with a tanky force with Abaddon in it" style of play because that feels like the strongest way for me to use him. Its the Deathguard playstyle of 10 blightlords with characters blob marching up the middle. But leaving Abaddon out opens different playstyles. Not to say I will ignore the middle. But I don't have to necessarily go all in with a tanky infantry marching blob up the middle. A more cagey, tactical kind of playstyle is possible without Abaddon.

Also, as an add on. Let's take 10 chaos terminators as a typical escorting force for Abaddon. Now actually, all by themselves, 10 chaos terminators are scary enough any player will give them lots of healthy respect. Because they have so many attacks (with accursed weapons) and yet they are tanky. Having abaddon is almost literally overkill. There are probably only a very limited number of things a unit 10 terminators cannot handle in melee where you then need Abaddon to step in to help.

Now don't get me wrong. Abaddon is amazing, I am not saying he isn't. Just throwing this out for discussion.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/04 01:21:01


Post by: warpedpig


I think you’re right. I also play Eldar and I just use superior mobility to avoid dangerous melee threats for turn 1 and 2 while shooting the crap out of all the other units and then by the end of turn 2 the opponent concedes because they can’t possibly survive and win through turn 5. So yeah abaddon is awesome but he is a huge points sink and forces you to have a blob of stuff. Easy to avoid


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/04 01:44:55


Post by: Eldenfirefly


warpedpig wrote:
I think you’re right. I also play Eldar and I just use superior mobility to avoid dangerous melee threats for turn 1 and 2 while shooting the crap out of all the other units and then by the end of turn 2 the opponent concedes because they can’t possibly survive and win through turn 5. So yeah abaddon is awesome but he is a huge points sink and forces you to have a blob of stuff. Easy to avoid


Exactly this. The best solution to Abaddon in a tanky unit is to just avoid that force. And some armies can do that.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/04 08:31:17


Post by: evil_kiwi_60


My honest answer to this codex has been to invest in Horus Heresy 2.0. I'm not going to try and rebuild two shattered legions. I'll just migrate to a game that actually lets you have a choice in unit construction. Maybe 10th will be good. Until then, CSM will fill in on heresy armies or stay on the shelf.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/04 08:36:42


Post by: Xyxel


How do You rate Noctilith Crown?

Growing 4++ aura vs shooting, has some deffensive shooting.
Can protect your "mortal" units which do not have inv (legionares, havocs, bikers, raptors, vehicles) can increase inv for Possesed, Terminators, characters, daemonengines.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/04 09:03:54


Post by: SicSemperTyrannis


 Xyxel wrote:
How do You rate Noctilith Crown?

Growing 4++ aura vs shooting, has some deffensive shooting.
Can protect your "mortal" units which do not have inv (legionares, havocs, bikers, raptors, vehicles) can increase inv for Possesed, Terminators, characters, daemonengines.


A Priest always seemed like a better deal than a Crown for that tasty invuln. But now that you can do a psychic action that yields cp or swap a priest prayers I´m really tempted to use one. Before it was either this or that.
Having a portal to hell on the table is pretty awesome and always makes great narratives I wish it would boost summoning but we can´t have that obviously


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/04 17:21:35


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Xyxel wrote:
How do You rate Noctilith Crown?

Growing 4++ aura vs shooting, has some deffensive shooting.
Can protect your "mortal" units which do not have inv (legionares, havocs, bikers, raptors, vehicles) can increase inv for Possesed, Terminators, characters, daemonengines.


With armor of contempt now, Invul is not quite as crucial as it once was. I would want to try it if I wanted to run lots of cultists. They benefit the most from the 4++ aura. A blob of 20 cultists with a 4++ would be extremely irritating to kill.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/04 18:21:18


Post by: xeen


So had my first game with new book. Black Leigion v. Orks. Here are some unit highlights....

Lord Disco - I gave him the Undivided Daemon Weapon and the half damage WL trait. The WL trait i found not as necessary as you can CP for -1 damage for him, and he now has look out sir so he wasn't in danger all that often. He did the business in CC, I took the auto cannon as that is what mine is modeled with, which was lack luster. Defiantly take the flamer if you have it. This guy is probably a must take if your are not running a daemon prince. Next time I am taking him with flames of spite with the Daemon Weapon for maximum MW output.

Master of Possession - As I think everyone knows on the internet this guys is a must include in every chaos list. The Malefic discipline is so damn good, maybe the best set of powers in the game. The fact that he can heal + resurrect not just daemonkin, but Core makes him so good. And the spell has 18 inch range. The other spells are good especially the +1T on terminators. Seriously, go on ebay and get this guy.

Terminators - I ran them as a big brick of 10 with mark of Tz and the -1 to wound relic on the champ. Against Orks they were basically unkilliable. In fact I think he killed two the whole game, one from an explosion. I am looking to see what happens against armies with better shooting. I did start them on the table, which I think is the way to go with the big brick. Dominate the middle. Next time I am going to run a priest with them for the shooting transhuman buff.

Chosen - I love them. The extra wound makes a huge difference to their staying power. There are so many D2 weapons in the game, making them inefficient with the extra wound is big. Also they hit like a truck. And have the advantage of being able to be put in a rhino.

Oblits - They are as you would expect from their data sheet. However, I did feel a bit underwhelmed by their AT shooting as if they are not buffed or you roll low on number of shots it really hurts them (and I think AT is where our book will have a bit of a struggle barring really nich vehicle lists)

Venomcrawlers - much better than before, getting them into combat is the way to go. However their shooting is still pretty mediocre.

I also ran some legionnaires, cultists, waptalons and noise marines. All were decent, but against the orks I don't know if I got a real picture of what they can do (except cultists which is die).

Black Leigon Trait - It was pretty clutch most of the game. Hitting on 2's on the charge or against the closest model was good. I keep track of it and it did make a real difference to the number of hits. The morale thing did not come up. Also the strat where you can put a unit into another legion trait (i.e.i Red Corsairs) is so good. I am switching to Word Bears for my next game as my list is heavy on CC, and so I think their re-roll hits will be better than the +1 only on a charge, and the 5++ against mortal wounds is always good, since you know, everyone and their mother can do mortal wounds now.

Also personally I find every list I build burning 4 or 5 CP for WL Traits and especially relics. There are so many good ones.

I don't think I will ever build a list that doesn't have Lord Disco or Daemon Prince, Master of Possession, at least 5 terminators with the -1 wound relic and mark of Tzeentch, and Chosen. In fact the -1 to wound relic is probably in every list all the time as it would be good to protect characters, or chosen, or some other large important unit.





Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/04 19:34:13


Post by: l0k1


What was your wargear setup for the Terminators and Chosen?

Also is Pact of Flesh really heal d3 + revive a model if the chosen unit is core/daemonkin? If so that seems insanely good, like going to get nerfed good.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/04 19:46:48


Post by: Carnage43


 l0k1 wrote:
What was your wargear setup for the Terminators and Chosen?

Also is Pact of Flesh really heal d3 + revive a model if the chosen unit is core/daemonkin? If so that seems insanely good, like going to get nerfed good.


The real nerf-fodder is the fact you can resurrect an Obliterator, when GW came out and explicitly stopped space marines from rezzing the go-carts. Healing on top of that is just icing on the cake IMO.

That said, someone made a comment somewhere about "Chaos being the test bed for space marines 2.0", and maybe this is one of the "previews of things to come"?



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/04 19:57:59


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 l0k1 wrote:
What was your wargear setup for the Terminators and Chosen?

Also is Pact of Flesh really heal d3 + revive a model if the chosen unit is core/daemonkin? If so that seems insanely good, like going to get nerfed good.

Chosen are just straight up bad compared to Terminators. The gimmick to be in all Doctrines at once doesn’t make up for all the better benefits Terminators have.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/05 00:49:58


Post by: xeen


 l0k1 wrote:
What was your wargear setup for the Terminators and Chosen?

Also is Pact of Flesh really heal d3 + revive a model if the chosen unit is core/daemonkin? If so that seems insanely good, like going to get nerfed good.


Terminators was all accused weapons and bolters. Weight of dice is a thing with 40 attacks. Also they had -1 to wound relic and tzeentch.

Chosen also just accused weapons and bolsters. Next time I am going to put the relic sword on champ.

I like the chosen because they can go in a rhino. Gets them up the field. Also they are 8 points cheaper then terminators. I wouldn’t bring two ten man terminators due to cost but one and one works well.

Yes the spell says heal d3 and resurrection. Like I said so good with 18 inch range


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/05 01:09:54


Post by: Eldenfirefly


The latest July FAQ is kind of a big buff for us. I mean, our armies are more focused toward Melee. And now, we get +1 inch charging through obscure terrain type ruins (which is quite standard these days). We also get a 2 inch engagement range if we are fighting over such terrain. Its kind of huge. It also makes charging a unit out of deep strike within such terrain easier because now we only need a 8 inch charge instead of a 9 inch charge. .

World Eaters must be in seventh heaven right now. But even excluding them, the rest of the legions all get a pretty big buff. Anything we deep strike in gets a 8 inch charge into units within such terrain. Obliterator, terminators, raptors, warp talons ...

Its also a buff to Abaddon. He gives Core +1 to charge rolls. Anything core coming in from deep strike with him has a 7 inch charge into obscuring ruins. Also, if you march him up the board with a tanky unit. That unit is now far more dangerous because it can get a 7 inch charge and engage with units behind obscuring terrain. This makes such a brick unit much more dangerous in the center now. Previously, because of the positioning people did, such a unit had to make a very long charge circling around the walls of such terrain. No longer will this be true. Such a unit in the middle would now be extremely lethal.

Turn 1, if your opponent puts a cheap sacrificial unit on the mid point, you get the charge in with Abby giving +1 and delete it and consolidate forward. Turn 1 end, its well in the center of the board. Turn 2, it will be charging your opponent's back objective of his castle within obscuring ruins. If it deletes the unit it charges and consolidates. It can be within his deployment zone by turn 2!


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/05 11:17:47


Post by: xeen


Anyone think of this. Put havocs behind obscuring terrain. Move out and shoot. Warp time back behind obscuring. Fire and fade for chaos. Just a thought


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/05 11:27:44


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 xeen wrote:
Anyone think of this. Put havocs behind obscuring terrain. Move out and shoot. Warp time back behind obscuring. Fire and fade for chaos. Just a thought


I didn't think of this. Its a cool neat trick!


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/05 13:18:39


Post by: MinMax


 xeen wrote:
Anyone think of this. Put havocs behind obscuring terrain. Move out and shoot. Warp time back behind obscuring. Fire and fade for chaos. Just a thought
Psychic Phase comes before the Shooting Phase, not after.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/05 18:22:44


Post by: Insularum


 MinMax wrote:
 xeen wrote:
Anyone think of this. Put havocs behind obscuring terrain. Move out and shoot. Warp time back behind obscuring. Fire and fade for chaos. Just a thought
Psychic Phase comes before the Shooting Phase, not after.
Red Corsairs can do it though with Dark Raider WLT


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/05 22:16:50


Post by: xeen


 MinMax wrote:
 xeen wrote:
Anyone think of this. Put havocs behind obscuring terrain. Move out and shoot. Warp time back behind obscuring. Fire and fade for chaos. Just a thought
Psychic Phase comes before the Shooting Phase, not after.


Crap. Forgot that. So warp time really is all that useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also are people deep striking their Oblits? I find that they need to be supported to be good, and so dropping them in the backfield is kind of a waste. Also deep striking means you miss out on Wanton Destruction.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 03:46:26


Post by: Thariinye


I can see using warptime on those obliterators T1 to get them into better shooting positions, then they can move on their own after that. Alternatively, warptime can go on a big block of terminators T1 so you can better position to contest midfield, or even T2 if they're defensive and Slaanesh so you don't necessarily care that much about getting the charge. Lastly, warptime can also get units onto objectives later in the game. So I still think warptime is really useful as a positioning tool, even if you're not going to be able to use it to get super-long charges anymore.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 03:52:15


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 xeen wrote:
 MinMax wrote:
 xeen wrote:
Anyone think of this. Put havocs behind obscuring terrain. Move out and shoot. Warp time back behind obscuring. Fire and fade for chaos. Just a thought
Psychic Phase comes before the Shooting Phase, not after.


Crap. Forgot that. So warp time really is all that useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also are people deep striking their Oblits? I find that they need to be supported to be good, and so dropping them in the backfield is kind of a waste. Also deep striking means you miss out on Wanton Destruction.


The problem is ... I honestly can't find anything that can buff Obliterators unless you are playing Iron Warriors legion. They are not core, so most auras, command buffs, strategems all don't work on them. So, actually, they are perfectly fine without support. The only kind of support that can be provided to them would be more of in boosting their durability or rezzing a model using the strategems that affect daemonkin or the Malefic disipline. The problem though, is I don't think Obliterators need to be buffed with our defensive buffs. If they are in cover, they have a 0+ save with armor of contempt and cover save. They don't need anything else really. And nothing improves their shooting either. So, actually, they are the perfect unit that can independently act without support.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 04:05:26


Post by: EviscerationPlague


Messing around on Battlescribe. You can do a unit of Terminators with MoT, and then use the Trophies Strat to give them the Rune. Whole square is -1 to wound and the first wound going through just gets negated. Probably the most durable unit with that combo I think?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 04:53:10


Post by: p5freak


If you want a tough termi unit you pick AL (-1 to hit at 12"+), give them MoN (S equal T is -1 to wound, S double T is also -1 to wound), play the stratagem grandfathers blessings on them for transhuman, mutaded invigoration gives them T5, feculent beseechment gives them T6, black rune of damnation is also -1 to wound. Benediction of darkness gives them light cover. And illusory supplication is transhuman for hitting them, and no rerolls.

You now have a unit which has T6, saves on 2+, which cannot be hit on less than 4+, cannot be wounded better than 4+, S5 and less strength only wounds them on 6s, they ignore AP-2 with AoC, and light cover. They negate +1 to wound. And if a model dies, or gets wounded, you heal it with pact of flesh, and return a killed model.

Thats a tough unit.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 07:54:58


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 p5freak wrote:
If you want a tough termi unit you pick AL (-1 to hit at 12"+), give them MoN (S equal T is -1 to wound, S double T is also -1 to wound), play the stratagem grandfathers blessings on them for transhuman, mutaded invigoration gives them T5, feculent beseechment gives them T6, black rune of damnation is also -1 to wound. Benediction of darkness gives them light cover. And illusory supplication is transhuman for hitting them, and no rerolls.

You now have a unit which has T6, saves on 2+, which cannot be hit on less than 4+, cannot be wounded better than 4+, S5 and less strength only wounds them on 6s, they ignore AP-2 with AoC, and light cover. They negate +1 to wound. And if a model dies, or gets wounded, you heal it with pact of flesh, and return a killed model.

Thats a tough unit.


Yup. There are many ways to make a tough tanky Terminator unit for CSM now. Increasingly though, I feel that Abaddon doesn't really have a place in such a force and is better off elsewhere. Like, A big brick of 10 terminators backed up by whether a MOP plus a Dark Apostle (to give the Transhit) is already a force that is close to 600 points, and honestly, how many units would dare to go near such a force or fight it head on? Abaddon is overkill if added to such a force. Its better for Abaddon to be elsewhere applying pressure. The issue is ... what would be a good accompanying force to Abaddon without making the whole shebang too much of a point sink such that a good opponent will just avoid that force and focus his efforts on another objective instead.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 09:00:02


Post by: blood reaper


 p5freak wrote:
If you want a tough termi unit you pick AL (-1 to hit at 12"+), give them MoN (S equal T is -1 to wound, S double T is also -1 to wound), play the stratagem grandfathers blessings on them for transhuman, mutaded invigoration gives them T5, feculent beseechment gives them T6, black rune of damnation is also -1 to wound. Benediction of darkness gives them light cover. And illusory supplication is transhuman for hitting them, and no rerolls.

You now have a unit which has T6, saves on 2+, which cannot be hit on less than 4+, cannot be wounded better than 4+, S5 and less strength only wounds them on 6s, they ignore AP-2 with AoC, and light cover. They negate +1 to wound. And if a model dies, or gets wounded, you heal it with pact of flesh, and return a killed model.

Thats a tough unit.


This is fairly CP hungry however - at 2 CP alone for the Black Rune. The unit still is obscenely tough.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 10:28:01


Post by: Valkyrie


Was looking at a rather nice combo with a Dark Apostle - take Exalted Possession, Ul'ro'cca and Omen of Potency and you have a 9 attacks at S7 AP-3 D2, with each wound causing an automatic MW which isn't bad for 95pts. If you can get Soultearer Portent off then he'll be wounding MEQ on 2+ as well.

Probably not the best combo in the book but I doubt you can get better for his points.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 11:09:42


Post by: LeRufus


Hi everyone, quick question. I wanna build a 500 points EC patrol, any tips on what to put in there? Thanks!


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 12:14:57


Post by: KirvesUK


Hi all. Had my 2nd game with my new World Eaters last night. First game, smashed the living daylights out of T'au..last night got pummeled by Necrons.
A few observations echoing previous points.
A) Abaddon cuts through enemy units with easy, almost making his 9 terminator mates redundant.
B) against someone who screens well, Abaddon and his mates are a absolutely huge investment that is somewhat left sitting in a corner of a battlefield saying 'ok, killed the enemy, now what can I do?'
C) Berserkers still die to decent overwatch, we could do with some help shutting that down as World Eater faction
D) dread claw drop pod is worth taking in my opinion, it's served me well twice and possibly worth adding another and dumping my Rhino for it
E) Obliterators aren't living up to their stats on paper, I'm not finding them actually achieving much at all

If you guys had a melee army, would you double-down on melee after getting smashed, or try and add some heavy shooting? A Knight instead of Abaddon for mobility?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 13:27:55


Post by: Leo_the_Rat


LeRufus wrote:
Hi everyone, quick question. I wanna build a 500 points EC patrol, any tips on what to put in there? Thanks!


In my meta I went with a Sorceror in Termie Armor (combi-melta & Force Stave precience), MIn unit of Noise Marines (4x Sonic Blaster, Doom Siren on Champ, 1 Blast master) and, a 5 man Termie squad (Champ has chainfist, Hvy Flame 4x Combi-bolt, 4x Accursed Weapon). That's about all that you can squeeze into 500 points.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 13:42:25


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


I am discovering list building in the new codex is a tad tricky. This is where I am at so far:

Black Legion, 1998pts, Starting CP: 3

HQ: Abaddon (1CP for Warlord Traits), Master of Possession (Pact of Flesh, Mutated Invigoration), Dark Apostle (Illusionary Supplication, 1CP The Black Mace)

Troops: 10 autogun Cultists, 10 Chainsword Legionaries (Power Axe, Mark/Icon of Khorne), 5 Bolter Legionaries (Chaincannon, Mark/Icon of Tzeentch, Tome: Diabolic Strength)

Elites: 10 Chaos Terminators (2 Power Fist, Mark of Nurgle, 1 CP Black Rune)

Fast Attack: Vemoncrawler, 5 Warp Talons

Heavy Support: Forgefiend (autocannons, ecto-jaws), 2 Obilerators, Havocs (4 Chaincannons)

The idea is I have a two pronged spear with Abaddon and the Chainsword Legionaries and the MoP, Dark Apostle, Terminators and Vemoncrawler for the other. With the Legionaries being more a meat shield for the Warmaster to get where I want him. While the Terminator squad is heavily supported by the other characters.

The Warp Talons are there to give me early game territory control, or if still around, late game scrambling. With the possibility of deep striking if I think that is warranted. Ultimately, much of the rest of my army is slow, so I wanted a bit of speed.

For back line/home objective campers/ action monkeys, I have the cultists and 5 Legionaries squad. With the Legionaries able to buff or put out a bit of shooting if needed. However, this army is set up for a strong push toward the enemy, and I definitely see it having a weakness to deep strike.

Which I have Forgefiend, Havocs to kinda defend, but they are also likely to be mid-field. The Obliterators are my Anti-tank/heavy infantry flex unit. Though, I fully admit, this list does seem light on AT.

I never one was for making use of Marks/Icons. So I think I am doing a poor job applying them here. I figure since I have 10 marine squads, it's fine giving adding them. However, part of me thinks those 5 Tzeentch Legionaries are more points than they'll be worth. Which I have a bad habit of adding too many upgrades in general.

As mentioned, I think this army has a real weakness in being slow. Which I hope can be made up in it being flexible and able for units to work independent of each other. It's also a little more melee focused than I'd like, but that appears to be where the CSM power is.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 16:15:50


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 p5freak wrote:
If you want a tough termi unit you pick AL (-1 to hit at 12"+), give them MoN (S equal T is -1 to wound, S double T is also -1 to wound), play the stratagem grandfathers blessings on them for transhuman, mutaded invigoration gives them T5, feculent beseechment gives them T6, black rune of damnation is also -1 to wound. Benediction of darkness gives them light cover. And illusory supplication is transhuman for hitting them, and no rerolls.

You now have a unit which has T6, saves on 2+, which cannot be hit on less than 4+, cannot be wounded better than 4+, S5 and less strength only wounds them on 6s, they ignore AP-2 with AoC, and light cover. They negate +1 to wound. And if a model dies, or gets wounded, you heal it with pact of flesh, and return a killed model.

Thats a tough unit.

You can't stack modifiers to wound, otherwise just the Rune + MoN would suffice.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 20:42:49


Post by: Rogerio134134


Trying to think of a good way to run iron warriors. I think leaning into the durability of the faction is the way to go rather than the shooting itself which I don't think chaos is particularly brilliant at.

A large terminator brick in the middle of the table with bastion applied from the warlord (probably a dark apostle) who could then use illusory supplication on them as well would make them incredibly tough. Then I think MSU combat units running toward the enemy and threatening them could work.
Units like warp talons, chosen and Vernon crawlers all pack a punch and are relatively cheap, using these guys to push into the enemy while the terminators chill in the middle of the board could get some points on the board.

It's very tempting to just run black legion but I want to find a way to run IW without a LOS


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 22:42:18


Post by: EightFoldPath


EviscerationPlague wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
If you want a tough termi unit you pick AL (-1 to hit at 12"+), give them MoN (S equal T is -1 to wound, S double T is also -1 to wound), play the stratagem grandfathers blessings on them for transhuman, mutaded invigoration gives them T5, feculent beseechment gives them T6, black rune of damnation is also -1 to wound. Benediction of darkness gives them light cover. And illusory supplication is transhuman for hitting them, and no rerolls.

You now have a unit which has T6, saves on 2+, which cannot be hit on less than 4+, cannot be wounded better than 4+, S5 and less strength only wounds them on 6s, they ignore AP-2 with AoC, and light cover. They negate +1 to wound. And if a model dies, or gets wounded, you heal it with pact of flesh, and return a killed model.

Thats a tough unit.

You can't stack modifiers to wound, otherwise just the Rune + MoN would suffice.


Blood Angel Thunder Hammer Death Company wound T4 MoN Terminators on 2s but wound T4 MoN Rune Terminators on 3s. Another faction with +1 to wound all over the place we hope will be seeing a lot of play... CSM.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/06 23:19:02


Post by: EviscerationPlague


EightFoldPath wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
If you want a tough termi unit you pick AL (-1 to hit at 12"+), give them MoN (S equal T is -1 to wound, S double T is also -1 to wound), play the stratagem grandfathers blessings on them for transhuman, mutaded invigoration gives them T5, feculent beseechment gives them T6, black rune of damnation is also -1 to wound. Benediction of darkness gives them light cover. And illusory supplication is transhuman for hitting them, and no rerolls.

You now have a unit which has T6, saves on 2+, which cannot be hit on less than 4+, cannot be wounded better than 4+, S5 and less strength only wounds them on 6s, they ignore AP-2 with AoC, and light cover. They negate +1 to wound. And if a model dies, or gets wounded, you heal it with pact of flesh, and return a killed model.

Thats a tough unit.

You can't stack modifiers to wound, otherwise just the Rune + MoN would suffice.


Blood Angel Thunder Hammer Death Company wound T4 MoN Terminators on 2s but wound T4 MoN Rune Terminators on 3s. Another faction with +1 to wound all over the place we hope will be seeing a lot of play... CSM.

Well that just begs the question of how often in a TAAC it's worth preparing for either S4 or S8 that has a bonus to wound on top of it.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 00:29:06


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Valkyrie wrote:
Was looking at a rather nice combo with a Dark Apostle - take Exalted Possession, Ul'ro'cca and Omen of Potency and you have a 9 attacks at S7 AP-3 D2, with each wound causing an automatic MW which isn't bad for 95pts. If you can get Soultearer Portent off then he'll be wounding MEQ on 2+ as well.

Probably not the best combo in the book but I doubt you can get better for his points.


Kind of like how with some investment, you can make an absolutely murder beast out of a Master of Executions as well which is just 65 points (but still glass cannon). This is also why Abaddon literally feels like overkill since lots of characters can be made super killy. (I am still trying to think of how best to use Abaddon though).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
KirvesUK wrote:
Hi all. Had my 2nd game with my new World Eaters last night. First game, smashed the living daylights out of T'au..last night got pummeled by Necrons.
A few observations echoing previous points.
A) Abaddon cuts through enemy units with easy, almost making his 9 terminator mates redundant.
B) against someone who screens well, Abaddon and his mates are a absolutely huge investment that is somewhat left sitting in a corner of a battlefield saying 'ok, killed the enemy, now what can I do?'
C) Berserkers still die to decent overwatch, we could do with some help shutting that down as World Eater faction
D) dread claw drop pod is worth taking in my opinion, it's served me well twice and possibly worth adding another and dumping my Rhino for it
E) Obliterators aren't living up to their stats on paper, I'm not finding them actually achieving much at all

If you guys had a melee army, would you double-down on melee after getting smashed, or try and add some heavy shooting? A Knight instead of Abaddon for mobility?


A) Same observation. Abaddon alone gets the job done, anything else with him is just literally tagging along.
B) Yup. I ran into this as well. Once you pen and screen out Abaddon, he and his friends are a massive investment that overkills but can't do much else, while moving 5 to 6 inches.
C) and D) no experience, can't comment.
E) I find their shooting underwhelming for their points. Roll a 1 for the big anti tank shot and miss... feels bad. I used single obliterator to shoot the warphail at a 10 man squad of infantry, and failed to even wipe the squad ... Feels bad. And there is really no way to boost their fire power. They are tanky, but a smart opponent can literally just ignore them because they just don't shoot well enough to be theatening. I am using one single obliterator to deep strike in, as a cheap, small footprint deep striker that will cause problems in the backline or against vehicles. But this all depends on them making their charge from deep strike. Ah well.

On mobility, I would try out all of our existing options within our codex before looking at adding other codex allies because command points are precious these days. CSM has a lot of mobile units that can hit hard as well. For shooting, I seriously don't know. I am going to try out Lord of skulls for sure. For me, that's probably the most shooty model we have now. Its just that it works best in a IW legion.

I tried out the new twin soulshatter cannons on predator (I didn't bring the lascannon sponsons because I feel that those are too expensive). The damage is nice, but you still need to get the shot through and AP3 is no longer a sure thing in the armor of contempt world we live in now. Even a Rhino gets a 5+ save against that. Its great when it gets through, but its basically all down to the RNG gods. Can you hit and wound, and can your opponent fail his save... lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I am discovering list building in the new codex is a tad tricky. This is where I am at so far:

As mentioned, I think this army has a real weakness in being slow. Which I hope can be made up in it being flexible and able for units to work independent of each other. It's also a little more melee focused than I'd like, but that appears to be where the CSM power is.


We need to make sure we take all three of our fast attack slots I feel. Most of the units in our fast attack are very mobile. Also, given we have so many options in power armor, I feel that at least one Rhino is almost mandatory and even two Rhinos isn't a bad idea. We also need to use warptime and advance as much as we can.

I actually think at this stage that if we bring Abaddon, then he is the best target in our list for warptime. Charge up fast mobile units and/or a Rhino with power armor troops in it, then have Abaddon also advance and then move again with warptime so he has a 12+d6 move to keep up with the mobile units. This assumes though that he didn't get move blocked with a cheap screen.

Abaddon warptime onto a midboard objective along with a Rhino with power armor troops in it presents an interesting problem to opponents. The Rhino will absorb psychic mortals and some shooting. And then the power armor troops with armor of contempt inside spill out and give look out sir to Abaddon. Even if they clear through all that, and then charge Abaddon, he still can't die. And then he will hit back and kill whatever charged him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rogerio134134 wrote:
Trying to think of a good way to run iron warriors. I think leaning into the durability of the faction is the way to go rather than the shooting itself which I don't think chaos is particularly brilliant at.

A large terminator brick in the middle of the table with bastion applied from the warlord (probably a dark apostle) who could then use illusory supplication on them as well would make them incredibly tough. Then I think MSU combat units running toward the enemy and threatening them could work.
Units like warp talons, chosen and Vernon crawlers all pack a punch and are relatively cheap, using these guys to push into the enemy while the terminators chill in the middle of the board could get some points on the board.

It's very tempting to just run black legion but I want to find a way to run IW without a LOS


Yeah, our CSM codex just isn't that great in shooting (maybe a LOS can do it? jury is still out, I need to try out that out). Maybe if we spammed 6 squads of noise marines with blast masters then the shooting would be good. But its a very specific sort of build that is again best in one specific legion (Emperor's Children). Not to mention getting that many noise marines would be a pain at this point.

BTW, has anyone tried Abaddon with a unit of power armour in a Land Raider. Maybe even put in a master of executions in there as well. The LR moves them up the board 10 inches. Gives them protection. And shoots 4 soulshatter lascannons. Then turn 2, they can literally go disembark and move 9 inches in three different directions from the center of the board before making their charges. It sounds interesting in theory. I haven't tried it out. And of course, its a lot of points concentrated into one Land Raider. lol

At the extreme, you can squeeze Abaddon, 3 masters of execution and one power armor squad into the Land Raider and we now have 5 different units that can burst out of the Land Raider in 5 different directions. lol


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 05:40:49


Post by: EviscerationPlague


No Power Armor is worth that space besides Possessed.

I'm legit scratching my head at the supposed role of Chosen vs just taking Terminators or Possessed. The Wanton ability is just legit not worth it I don't think.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 05:44:24


Post by: p5freak


EviscerationPlague wrote:

You can't stack modifiers to wound, otherwise just the Rune + MoN would suffice.


Yes, i can. I can use it to negate +1 to wound. The result is still -1 to wound.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 07:52:43


Post by: KirvesUK


Thanks Eldenfirefly for validating some of what I suspected. I've played games with DG before where my expensive block of terminators have sometimes been left in a corner twiddling their thumbs, so I'm keen to avoid that.

So, perhaps, if we run Abaddon we need to give him a slightly cheaper bodyguard? Maybe with 5 Possessed? Although they are faster than him.

I don't own a Lord of Skulls, or I would happily try it out, but I was looking for an excuse to buy a Brass Scorpion. Either way, I guess we are saying that shooting support is still required in a Melee focused army.

I would also love to know what a Land Raider with Abaddon and 8 possessed does to a mid -table.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 10:23:22


Post by: Xyxel


Does Black Legion get +1 to hit in overwatch? If chargin enemy is the closest eligible enemy unit? (Black Crusaders Legion trait)

BL looks good for shooting army. Also when shooting in combat (pistols, vehicles)


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 13:46:27


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 xeen wrote:
Terminators was all accused weapons and bolters. Weight of dice is a thing with 40 attacks. Also they had -1 to wound relic and tzeentch.


The -1 to wound relic I saw was Cultist unit only, was there another one I missed?

Edit: Nevermind, I read that as Cultist only.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 14:43:02


Post by: JNAProductions


 Xyxel wrote:
Does Black Legion get +1 to hit in overwatch? If chargin enemy is the closest eligible enemy unit? (Black Crusaders Legion trait)

BL looks good for shooting army. Also when shooting in combat (pistols, vehicles)
It would grant a +1 to-hit (I think), but Overwatch only hits on 6s unless a rule specifically modifies it. Which the BL Trait does not, to my knowledge.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 15:07:40


Post by: Zeruel13


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 xeen wrote:
Terminators was all accused weapons and bolters. Weight of dice is a thing with 40 attacks. Also they had -1 to wound relic and tzeentch.


The -1 to wound relic I saw was Cultist unit only, was there another one I missed?

Edit: Nevermind, I read that as Cultist only.


It isn't cultist only, it just specifies a cultist model can take it.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 15:24:00


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Zeruel13 wrote:
It isn't cultist only, it just specifies a cultist model can take it.


Yeah, that's pretty much auto-include, especially for a big block of Terminators. With Feculent Beseechment S1-5 is wounding on 6s and everything else is wounding on 4+ if I read that right with Mark of Nurgle.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 15:25:47


Post by: Pandabeer


So how does this putting two relics on the same character thing from the opening post work? Is that a new option from Nephilim (or something)?

KirvesUK wrote:
Thanks Eldenfirefly for validating some of what I suspected. I've played games with DG before where my expensive block of terminators have sometimes been left in a corner twiddling their thumbs, so I'm keen to avoid that.

So, perhaps, if we run Abaddon we need to give him a slightly cheaper bodyguard? Maybe with 5 Possessed? Although they are faster than him.

I don't own a Lord of Skulls, or I would happily try it out, but I was looking for an excuse to buy a Brass Scorpion. Either way, I guess we are saying that shooting support is still required in a Melee focused army.

I would also love to know what a Land Raider with Abaddon and 8 possessed does to a mid -table.


Get blown up before it arrives probably Maybe it'll survive if you buff it to high heaven. But at least it'll have every single AT weapon of your opponent pointed at it for a turn.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 16:23:23


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Pandabeer wrote:
So how does this putting two relics on the same character thing from the opening post work? Is that a new option from Nephilim (or something)?

KirvesUK wrote:
Thanks Eldenfirefly for validating some of what I suspected. I've played games with DG before where my expensive block of terminators have sometimes been left in a corner twiddling their thumbs, so I'm keen to avoid that.

I would also love to know what a Land Raider with Abaddon and 8 possessed does to a mid -table.


Get blown up before it arrives probably Maybe it'll survive if you buff it to high heaven. But at least it'll have every single AT weapon of your opponent pointed at it for a turn.


The two relics on the same character is a new thing in the CSM codex. You can put two relics on one character provided one of them is a relic weapon. And this includes turning one of their existing weapons into a relic daemon weapon.

Get blown up before it arrives? The Land Raider ? Chaos Land Raiders are now T9 naturally (very tough!). Some of the armies out there who are using mostly melta or Str 8 on their anti-tank weapons will need 5s to wound the Land Raider. And armor of contempt means they are effectively 1+ save against a weapon with AP1 or higher. They get a 4+ save even against a lascannon's AP3 and 5+ against metla AP4. Even without defensive buffs, a lot of armies may struggle to kill a LR in the first round. There are definitely some armies that could do it with the right mix of guns, but I think that there are far more armies that can't destroy a chaos landraider on turn 1 now.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 19:00:57


Post by: Pandabeer


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
So how does this putting two relics on the same character thing from the opening post work? Is that a new option from Nephilim (or something)?

KirvesUK wrote:
Thanks Eldenfirefly for validating some of what I suspected. I've played games with DG before where my expensive block of terminators have sometimes been left in a corner twiddling their thumbs, so I'm keen to avoid that.

I would also love to know what a Land Raider with Abaddon and 8 possessed does to a mid -table.


Get blown up before it arrives probably Maybe it'll survive if you buff it to high heaven. But at least it'll have every single AT weapon of your opponent pointed at it for a turn.


The two relics on the same character is a new thing in the CSM codex. You can put two relics on one character provided one of them is a relic weapon. And this includes turning one of their existing weapons into a relic daemon weapon.

Get blown up before it arrives? The Land Raider ? Chaos Land Raiders are now T9 naturally (very tough!). Some of the armies out there who are using mostly melta or Str 8 on their anti-tank weapons will need 5s to wound the Land Raider. And armor of contempt means they are effectively 1+ save against a weapon with AP1 or higher. They get a 4+ save even against a lascannon's AP3 and 5+ against metla AP4. Even without defensive buffs, a lot of armies may struggle to kill a LR in the first round. There are definitely some armies that could do it with the right mix of guns, but I think that there are far more armies that can't destroy a chaos landraider on turn 1 now.


Well, that opens up a lot of possibilities. That means I can have a durable AND deadly warlord. Let's see how crazy I can make my IW DP, Discolord and Termie Lord. Although with the Axe of the Forge Master, Insidium and the Warpsmith datasheet I think I can finally turn him into a proper Warsmith instead of just a generic Lord.

As for the LR: yeah I know it has T9, which is very nice. I still have trouble believing it'll be able to withstand a round of AT fire from the average 2k army though... but maybe that's just me still being used to 8e flimsiness, I must admit I haven't been able to play a single game ever since COVID started.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 19:47:40


Post by: EightFoldPath


EviscerationPlague wrote:
Well that just begs the question of how often in a TAAC it's worth preparing for either S4 or S8 that has a bonus to wound on top of it.

Personally I wouldn't go Rune + MoN, but if you do on a CORE unit like terminators you have a spell and a prayer that both can add +1T to the unit, so you can do some toughness manipulation in the one game per five where -2 to wound would matter.

I've not tried it yet, as I'm in the build stage, but if Terminators and Possessed are durable enough without the Rune, that opens up taking Terminators and Possessed and then also taking either Bikers or Chosen and putting the Rune on them. Reading the strategem to give the relic, you need to have a non character TRAITORIS ASTARTES model with Aspiring or Champion in the name which does seem to open it up to putting on a Rubric Marine Aspiring Sorcerer or a Plague Marine Plague Champion. So, IF terminators/possessed are tanky enough and IF bikers/chosen/rubrics/plagues are worth taking, maybe you put the Rune there.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 20:45:02


Post by: Daedalus81


Dumb question - if I put a unit into all 3 wanton do they get two explosions on a 6 for Rapid Fire?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 20:49:22


Post by: p5freak


No. Only one.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 21:00:14


Post by: xeen


EightFoldPath wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Well that just begs the question of how often in a TAAC it's worth preparing for either S4 or S8 that has a bonus to wound on top of it.

Personally I wouldn't go Rune + MoN, but if you do on a CORE unit like terminators you have a spell and a prayer that both can add +1T to the unit, so you can do some toughness manipulation in the one game per five where -2 to wound would matter.

I've not tried it yet, as I'm in the build stage, but if Terminators and Possessed are durable enough without the Rune, that opens up taking Terminators and Possessed and then also taking either Bikers or Chosen and putting the Rune on them. Reading the strategem to give the relic, you need to have a non character TRAITORIS ASTARTES model with Aspiring or Champion in the name which does seem to open it up to putting on a Rubric Marine Aspiring Sorcerer or a Plague Marine Plague Champion. So, IF terminators/possessed are tanky enough and IF bikers/chosen/rubrics/plagues are worth taking, maybe you put the Rune there.


I also think that MoN on the terminators with the Rune is a waste. I like Tzeentch a lot for it. The damage 0 thing has been really helpful in that it makes your opponent shoot at the terminators to try to strip it with small arms (which they usually tank so absorbing damage what would be more efficient elsewhere) or it just tanks a high damage high strength shot.

I am playing tomorrow and I am actually going to try the new Vindicator and see if it is any good. Also I am taking Word Bearers with a Lord Disco with the Undivided daemon weapon, and flames of spite. First round re-roll hits, then re-roll wounds, then his 6 main attacks do mortals just for wounding, plus mortals on 6's then all the other attacks re-roll hits and wounds and do mortals on 6. With the tendrils I plan on re-rolling all wound rolls that are not a 6 fishing for them (I am playing marines so St4 with 0 ap is not likely to hurt them so no waste on normal wounds).


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 21:31:36


Post by: Daedalus81


 p5freak wrote:
No. Only one.


Why do you think so? They're all distinct so if they're all on they should all trigger? What am I missing?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 21:42:06


Post by: Rogerio134134


Annoyingly I'm away for the next week or so with work so I'm just theory crafting here but I think we need to approach the game in the manner that blood angels do. Don't charge straight at the enemy but look for the turn 3 charge. Turn 1 and 2 use stuff like Havoc's, dreads and tanks to keep the enemy busy from range while our elite infantry hugs the cover and gets into position.
Of course the enemy needs some pressure units coming at then too to make them panic (venom crawlers I'm looking at you)

Going to take some getting used to but I'm looking forward to trying it.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 21:57:45


Post by: Dr.Duck


 xeen wrote:
EightFoldPath wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Well that just begs the question of how often in a TAAC it's worth preparing for either S4 or S8 that has a bonus to wound on top of it.

Personally I wouldn't go Rune + MoN, but if you do on a CORE unit like terminators you have a spell and a prayer that both can add +1T to the unit, so you can do some toughness manipulation in the one game per five where -2 to wound would matter.

I've not tried it yet, as I'm in the build stage, but if Terminators and Possessed are durable enough without the Rune, that opens up taking Terminators and Possessed and then also taking either Bikers or Chosen and putting the Rune on them. Reading the strategem to give the relic, you need to have a non character TRAITORIS ASTARTES model with Aspiring or Champion in the name which does seem to open it up to putting on a Rubric Marine Aspiring Sorcerer or a Plague Marine Plague Champion. So, IF terminators/possessed are tanky enough and IF bikers/chosen/rubrics/plagues are worth taking, maybe you put the Rune there.


I also think that MoN on the terminators with the Rune is a waste. I like Tzeentch a lot for it. The damage 0 thing has been really helpful in that it makes your opponent shoot at the terminators to try to strip it with small arms (which they usually tank so absorbing damage what would be more efficient elsewhere) or it just tanks a high damage high strength shot.

I am playing tomorrow and I am actually going to try the new Vindicator and see if it is any good. Also I am taking Word Bearers with a Lord Disco with the Undivided daemon weapon, and flames of spite. First round re-roll hits, then re-roll wounds, then his 6 main attacks do mortals just for wounding, plus mortals on 6's then all the other attacks re-roll hits and wounds and do mortals on 6. With the tendrils I plan on re-rolling all wound rolls that are not a 6 fishing for them (I am playing marines so St4 with 0 ap is not likely to hurt them so no waste on normal wounds).


I feel quite the opposite. I feel like generally you are only going to be mitigating 1 wound a turn. No one is going to shoot anything worthwhile into the unit until the mark proc is gone likely. I feel like going from bolters wounding you on 5s to 6s or Fists/Monsters going from 3s to 4s to be much more significant. You also get access to being affected by -1 hit spell instead of the 4+ invul spell.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 22:25:40


Post by: Insularum


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Dumb question - if I put a unit into all 3 wanton do they get two explosions on a 6 for Rapid Fire?

Unfortunately the codex does spell out that this doesn't work as a footnote in the let the galaxy burn section - if it did work it would make the Chosen's ability actually kind of good as it would affect only their limited access to special guns (melee weapons only being in one wanton section anyway).


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/07 23:01:41


Post by: Daedalus81


 Insularum wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Dumb question - if I put a unit into all 3 wanton do they get two explosions on a 6 for Rapid Fire?

Unfortunately the codex does spell out that this doesn't work as a footnote in the let the galaxy burn section - if it did work it would make the Chosen's ability actually kind of good as it would affect only their limited access to special guns (melee weapons only being in one wanton section anyway).


It's weird how I was mentally blind to the big white box. Thanks for the help!


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 00:22:36


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Pandabeer wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
So how does this putting two relics on the same character thing from the opening post work? Is that a new option from Nephilim (or something)?

KirvesUK wrote:
Thanks Eldenfirefly for validating some of what I suspected. I've played games with DG before where my expensive block of terminators have sometimes been left in a corner twiddling their thumbs, so I'm keen to avoid that.

I would also love to know what a Land Raider with Abaddon and 8 possessed does to a mid -table.


Get blown up before it arrives probably Maybe it'll survive if you buff it to high heaven. But at least it'll have every single AT weapon of your opponent pointed at it for a turn.


Get blown up before it arrives? The Land Raider ? Chaos Land Raiders are now T9 naturally (very tough!). There are definitely some armies that could do it with the right mix of guns, but I think that there are far more armies that can't destroy a chaos landraider on turn 1 now.


Well, that opens up a lot of possibilities. That means I can have a durable AND deadly warlord. Let's see how crazy I can make my IW DP, Discolord and Termie Lord. Although with the Axe of the Forge Master, Insidium and the Warpsmith datasheet I think I can finally turn him into a proper Warsmith instead of just a generic Lord.

As for the LR: yeah I know it has T9, which is very nice. I still have trouble believing it'll be able to withstand a round of AT fire from the average 2k army though... but maybe that's just me still being used to 8e flimsiness, I must admit I haven't been able to play a single game ever since COVID started.


Oh, you are playing Iron Warriors? That's even better. The Iron Warriors legion trait is ignore cover and enemy cannot reroll wounds against you (In the balance dataslate). And this includes all your vehicles too! So, if his anti tank gun fails to wound your T9 land raider, he can't even reroll it! Iron Warrior's Land Raiders are extra hard to bring down!


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 00:34:12


Post by: Dr.Duck


Does other half of the iron warriors trait do anything currently or does it conflict with AOC?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 00:36:02


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Well looky what just showed up in the mail...


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 01:09:10


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Dr.Duck wrote:
Does other half of the iron warriors trait do anything currently or does it conflict with AOC?


It has been changed in the dataslate. It is no longer that because AOC already does that. It has been changed in the balance dataslate to enemy cannot reroll wounds against you.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 02:16:00


Post by: Daedalus81


Alright - this is my "So you think you can kill me?" list.

Abaddoo
MoP, Pact & Mutate
Priest, 6+++ & transhit

5 Legionaries, Tome, MoT, Diabolic, Skeins
2x5 Legionaries, ML

10 Chosen, MoT, Icon, Warp's Malice ( 4 shot MW pistol )
10 Chosen, MoT, Icon, Black Rune ( -1 to wound )
5 Rubrics, WF Pistol, 4x WF
Helbrute, ML, Plasma, MoT
Helbrute, MM, Fist, MoT

Vindicator


I haven't really thought much about the mission mechanics, but the premise is just making a bunch of silly hard to kill models.

One one side there are the Chosen backed up by the Apostle with a 6+++ and transhit ( 2 CP to fuel is tough, but maybe worthwhile ). The other squad gets a Legionaries unit to hand out a 4++ along with a -1 to wound. Both MoT so when in cover with AoC hopefully they'll take a long time to bring down. MoP brings back models and hands out +1T.

I have to lose four models before needing to test and with the Icon a failed test always means just one extra model.

I dunno...seems fun.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 03:24:18


Post by: l0k1


So, I'm still trying to process this massive book. So many layers of buffs to apply. I'm thinking of running Word Bearers, wouldn't mind Emperor's Children but not buying Noise Marines. Corsairs
and Creations of Bile have decent traits and not much else. Aside from a Master of Possession, I'm thinking of a Disco Lord with Flames of Spite and UL'O'CCA(undivided daemons weapon). I assume the trait and the daemon weapon stack MWs?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 04:07:26


Post by: p5freak


Every CSM player should have 10 rubric marines with warpflamers, because 9D6+18 autohits. Not to mention all the buffs you can stack on them.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 04:12:05


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Weirdly I've been playing with an Iron Warriors list.

Using a Spearhead I can kinda make the list I ran back in the day, and with a few extra things tacked on (Helbrutes, Warpsmith, and a Venomcrawler!).

Basically:

DP w/Wings + MoT (Prescience)
Warpsmith w/Hammer
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
Helbrute w/TL-Las + ML + MoT
Helbrute w/Reaper AC + Scourge + MoS
Venomcrawler
Defiler
Defiler
Havocs w/4 ACs
Havocs w/4 MLs
Oblit
Oblit

Should Twin-Linked flamers get Dx+4 hits, rather than just the +2? Seems right to me, even though it is 100% unlikely to be supported by the rules.

 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM player should have 10 rubric marines with warpflamers, because 9D6+18 autohits. Not to mention all the buffs you can stack on them.
What if you don't want or like Rubric Marines?



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 04:34:26


Post by: l0k1


 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM player should have 10 rubric marines with warpflamers, because 9D6+18 autohits. Not to mention all the buffs you can stack on them.


Rubric marines with bolters and pop daemon shell is nice too.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 05:20:36


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Alright - this is my "So you think you can kill me?" list.

Abaddoo
MoP, Pact & Mutate
Priest, 6+++ & transhit

5 Legionaries, Tome, MoT, Diabolic, Skeins
2x5 Legionaries, ML

10 Chosen, MoT, Icon, Warp's Malice ( 4 shot MW pistol )
10 Chosen, MoT, Icon, Black Rune ( -1 to wound )
5 Rubrics, WF Pistol, 4x WF
Helbrute, ML, Plasma, MoT
Helbrute, MM, Fist, MoT

Vindicator


I haven't really thought much about the mission mechanics, but the premise is just making a bunch of silly hard to kill models.

One one side there are the Chosen backed up by the Apostle with a 6+++ and transhit ( 2 CP to fuel is tough, but maybe worthwhile ). The other squad gets a Legionaries unit to hand out a 4++ along with a -1 to wound. Both MoT so when in cover with AoC hopefully they'll take a long time to bring down. MoP brings back models and hands out +1T.

I have to lose four models before needing to test and with the Icon a failed test always means just one extra model.

I dunno...seems fun.

But why Chosen over Terminators?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 08:35:59


Post by: Insularum


What are peoples thoughts on a Mark of Slaanesh Helbrute with melta and hammer? Looks like a good platform to just point at something scary and then use Murderous Pefection and/or Fire Frenzy to score either lots of hits, or max damage on their D6 damage weapons.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Weirdly I've been playing with an Iron Warriors list.

Using a Spearhead I can kinda make the list I ran back in the day, and with a few extra things tacked on (Helbrutes, Warpsmith, and a Venomcrawler!).

Basically:

DP w/Wings + MoT (Prescience)
Warpsmith w/Hammer
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
Helbrute w/TL-Las + ML + MoT
Helbrute w/Reaper AC + Scourge + MoS
Venomcrawler
Defiler
Defiler
Havocs w/4 ACs
Havocs w/4 MLs
Oblit
Oblit

Should Twin-Linked flamers get Dx+4 hits, rather than just the +2? Seems right to me, even though it is 100% unlikely to be supported by the rules.

 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM player should have 10 rubric marines with warpflamers, because 9D6+18 autohits. Not to mention all the buffs you can stack on them.
What if you don't want or like Rubric Marines?

I think twin flamers would be +2 not +4 as it is just one flame weapon profile.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 08:44:17


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Oh I agree, but I think it's one of those weird things where twin-linked weapons get double shots, yet that's not accounted for in this new rule, meaning two heavy flamers are more burny than one twin-heavy flamer, despite essentially being the same thing.




Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 10:30:59


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Weirdly I've been playing with an Iron Warriors list.

Using a Spearhead I can kinda make the list I ran back in the day, and with a few extra things tacked on (Helbrutes, Warpsmith, and a Venomcrawler!).

Basically:

DP w/Wings + MoT (Prescience)
Warpsmith w/Hammer
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
Helbrute w/TL-Las + ML + MoT
Helbrute w/Reaper AC + Scourge + MoS
Venomcrawler
Defiler
Defiler
Havocs w/4 ACs
Havocs w/4 MLs
Oblit
Oblit

Should Twin-Linked flamers get Dx+4 hits, rather than just the +2? Seems right to me, even though it is 100% unlikely to be supported by the rules.

 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM player should have 10 rubric marines with warpflamers, because 9D6+18 autohits. Not to mention all the buffs you can stack on them.
What if you don't want or like Rubric Marines?



Wow, that's a surprisingly large number of high strength guns! Interesting list!


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 12:25:00


Post by: p5freak


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Weirdly I've been playing with an Iron Warriors list.


Why no MoP ? The malefic discipline is really good when you have daemons/daemon engines.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What if you don't want or like Rubric Marines?


Then you miss out on a very good unit.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 13:39:15


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 p5freak wrote:
Why no MoP ? The malefic discipline is really good when you have daemons/daemon engines.
Oh I know they're good. They finally made the Master of Possession worth taking. That's why him, and Oblits, will be the first things overcorrected with double- or even triple-dip nerfs in the first FAQ/points adjustments. Just like Maleceptors. Best not to get attached.

Besides, Warpsmith's are more Iron Warrior-y.




Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 15:19:25


Post by: Pandabeer


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Pandabeer wrote:
So how does this putting two relics on the same character thing from the opening post work? Is that a new option from Nephilim (or something)?

KirvesUK wrote:
Thanks Eldenfirefly for validating some of what I suspected. I've played games with DG before where my expensive block of terminators have sometimes been left in a corner twiddling their thumbs, so I'm keen to avoid that.

I would also love to know what a Land Raider with Abaddon and 8 possessed does to a mid -table.


Get blown up before it arrives probably Maybe it'll survive if you buff it to high heaven. But at least it'll have every single AT weapon of your opponent pointed at it for a turn.


Get blown up before it arrives? The Land Raider ? Chaos Land Raiders are now T9 naturally (very tough!). There are definitely some armies that could do it with the right mix of guns, but I think that there are far more armies that can't destroy a chaos landraider on turn 1 now.


Well, that opens up a lot of possibilities. That means I can have a durable AND deadly warlord. Let's see how crazy I can make my IW DP, Discolord and Termie Lord. Although with the Axe of the Forge Master, Insidium and the Warpsmith datasheet I think I can finally turn him into a proper Warsmith instead of just a generic Lord.

As for the LR: yeah I know it has T9, which is very nice. I still have trouble believing it'll be able to withstand a round of AT fire from the average 2k army though... but maybe that's just me still being used to 8e flimsiness, I must admit I haven't been able to play a single game ever since COVID started.


Oh, you are playing Iron Warriors? That's even better. The Iron Warriors legion trait is ignore cover and enemy cannot reroll wounds against you (In the balance dataslate). And this includes all your vehicles too! So, if his anti tank gun fails to wound your T9 land raider, he can't even reroll it! Iron Warrior's Land Raiders are extra hard to bring down!


Yeah, IW Discolord with Unyielding Metal, Black Rune of Damnation (I think the Discolord can take that?) and Mark of Nurgle. S7 or under only wounds on 6+ non-rerollable, S8+ on 4+ non-rerollable. Slap unholy Vigor on it when targeted by heavy AT fire to reduce that wound roll even further to 5+. W9 2+/5++/5+++. Good luck getting rid of that


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 15:43:02


Post by: whembly


 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM player should have 10 rubric marines with warpflamers, because 9D6+18 autohits. Not to mention all the buffs you can stack on them.

Why not 3 10x Rubrics in Dreadclaws.

o.O

Expensive, but damn...


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 15:47:43


Post by: JNAProductions


Note: Mark Of Nurgle and the Black Rune do NOT stack normally.

-2 to-wound is reduced to -1. It's only useful to negate a +1 to-wound.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 16:08:49


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 JNAProductions wrote:
Note: Mark Of Nurgle and the Black Rune do NOT stack normally.

-2 to-wound is reduced to -1. It's only useful to negate a +1 to-wound.


Yeah, my mistake, but still pretty useful, especially given the existence of stuff like Warp Marked and other +1 to wound options.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 16:53:25


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 JNAProductions wrote:
Note: Mark Of Nurgle and the Black Rune do NOT stack normally.

-2 to-wound is reduced to -1. It's only useful to negate a +1 to-wound.

Hence why I brought up how useful is it for a TAAC list to try to negate S4 and S8 getting a +1 to wound. I wager not a lot.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 17:05:48


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Have tried a few games now testing out different units, all as black legion. The black legion trait is good. Some observations.

1. Abaddon is overkill alongside a big expensive unit like terminators. Too much investment of points into the center.

2. I am loving the Chaos Land Raider. Super durable, hard to kill. Can ferry troops up the board, and has a fairly powerful anti tank shooting in the form of its 4 soulshatter lascannon shots. I rate it over running Predator tanks.

3. CSM long range anti-tank shooting is kind of lackluster. (Even if we are running a LR). Maybe a IW list will be different. Not sure.

4. Our melee is impressive. We are a melee army now.

5. Raptors feel lacklustor. Same durability as legionaires. Same damage output as well. The only benefit is their jump pack 12 inch move. Given the crowded FA slot. There are other options.

6. Chaos Bikes are nice. 14 inch move, strategem to make them -1 to hit. Go tzeentch for AP1 mass combi bolters, and make that AP2 at 30 inch range with daemon shell. And they can help with secondaries. Rely on them quite a lot.

7. Our secondaries require a lot of thinking and list building around. Build your list a certain way, and you will find some secondaries very difficult to do. And given that most of our CSM secondaries aren't that great. That would be a problem. For the Dark gods is decent for certain maps, but again, requires some thought into list building. I think this will hold back CSM from being top tier in tournaments. Not having easy strong CSM secondaries is going to be a disadvantage when running CSM armies against other armies with easy and good codex secondaries.

8. The new chaos spawn is great too. Yet another good contender for an already crowded spot within fast attack.

9. Most of the Elite slot units are all above average to great. Luckily we can run 6 elites in a batallion. Its more of an issue of points than anything else.

Overall, I have had a lot of fun in the past few games playing our 9th ed codex and look forward to many more different builds and trying out different legions too.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 17:14:27


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


Eldenfirefly wrote:
2. I am loving the Chaos Land Raider. Super durable, hard to kill. Can ferry troops up the board, and has a fairly powerful anti tank shooting in the form of its 4 soulshatter lascannon shots. I rate it over running Predator tanks.


270 for Land Raider with Havoc Launcher.

270 for 3 man Obliterator squad.

Obliterators seem to have a bit more support/buff/resiliency potential, but it's close enough that there's a discussion to be had. Obviously there's a 'why not both?' school of thought, but the fact that there's even a comparison is a step in the right direction.

Now update those tanks for everyone else.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 17:37:37


Post by: LeRufus


Wchich Land Raider? Vanilla, Achilles or Proteus? ^^


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 18:54:21


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


Eldenfirefly wrote:
5. Raptors feel lacklustor. Same durability as legionaires. Same damage output as well. The only benefit is their jump pack 12 inch move. Given the crowded FA slot. There are other options.

8. The new chaos spawn is great too. Yet another good contender for an already crowded spot within fast attack.


My opinion on CSM Fast Attack:

In my reality, there are no CSM biker models. A tangential effect to my inability to see Finecast models, I think. So I ignore the datasheet out of hand.

I think the Raptors are fine, but too many points. They are Fast Attack, without ObSec and less options than Legionaries. I honestly think they could be the same price as Legionaries, given those limitations. However, I know GW doesn't think that way, so 1 more point than Legionaries would make them a more comfortable pick to me. As they are going to be removed pretty fast. Additionally, most legions don't have jump pack HQs to buff them up anymore, taking some of their strength away. However, before this codex my Raptors were always in the running for MVP, as 9th really values speed. I feel like they'll do pretty well when I run a Worldclaimer and Raptor focused list.

Chaos Spawn are wonderful for the price, but I don't know if they find a home in my lists. I only have the basic 2 and haven't got around to rolling bits into greenstuff yet. Additionally, their 7" Move isn't enough from what I want from my Fast Attack. I could easily see a CSM player casting Warp Time on a squad of 5 for early objective claiming. Even if the Spawn don't hold their ground, the resources it would take to remove them is going to create a lot of breathing room for the rest of the CSM army.

Warp Talons are a bit of an X factor for me. They've almost always suffer the Raptors fragility (that 5++ doesn't seem to do much for me) while being less flexible as a melee only unit and more points to field. My game this weekend, I am going to give them a go, but even with several elements capable of giving them buffs, I highly doubt my Warp Talons are going to be any near close enough to receive them.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 19:25:18


Post by: EightFoldPath


The buffs for Raptors and Warp Talons (and plenty of other units) are of the pick one unit within 6"/18" to get X for the whole battle round variety.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Why no MoP ? The malefic discipline is really good when you have daemons/daemon engines.
Oh I know they're good. They finally made the Master of Possession worth taking. That's why him, and Oblits, will be the first things overcorrected with double- or even triple-dip nerfs in the first FAQ/points adjustments. Just like Maleceptors. Best not to get attached.

Besides, Warpsmith's are more Iron Warrior-y.

This book is much less likely to get nerf batted like Tyranids. It is early days but Tyranids might still be the strongest codex right now, while I think CSM will slot in around the CK/IK level. Similar to Thousand Sons they will probably get very little in the way of nerfs. Perhaps the -1 to wound Rune will get FAQ'd, maybe the MoP will get +15 points in 6 months time.

90 point Obliterators still look a bit pricey compared to other book similar optionss.
Twin Lascannon Ironstrider - 85pts.
Talos - 100pts.
MM Paragon - 80pts.
Plasma/RR Broadside - 95pts.
But they don't look terrible alongside, which is presumably what they are aiming for.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 19:52:42


Post by: Tyel


I wouldn't be shocked if they brought in a "you can't pact of flesh Obliterators" rule. But I don't think Oblits are obviously overpowered at 90 points as they stand.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 21:26:47


Post by: Dr.Duck


EviscerationPlague wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Note: Mark Of Nurgle and the Black Rune do NOT stack normally.

-2 to-wound is reduced to -1. It's only useful to negate a +1 to-wound.

Hence why I brought up how useful is it for a TAAC list to try to negate S4 and S8 getting a +1 to wound. I wager not a lot.


If BA become the one and only SM faction maybe. Is definatly meta dependant. Damn I thought I read that mods did stack but now looking it up again I see they dont. Tzeench or Sla def the way to go then. If BL you can use the strat to already get strikes first and +1A so it might SLA might be redundant unless you really gunning for that 5+FNP.

I can see arguments for both TZ and SLA in a BL and WB list. Damn tho lol. TransHit if nurgle. Never better than a 3+ to wound. 5++/5+++ if SLA or 4++ if TZ.

WB SLA will strike first when charged and have rerolls to hit.

The issue becomes that this unit is so damn punchy and durable but slow that opponent will do whatever they can to stay away. Will be difficult for them to earn points back. Warp time or some way to give advance and charge will be needed. If BL you can use the strat to give Red Corsair trait to the unit and allow them to advance and charge for a turn.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 21:39:09


Post by: xeen


Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
5. Raptors feel lacklustor. Same durability as legionaires. Same damage output as well. The only benefit is their jump pack 12 inch move. Given the crowded FA slot. There are other options.

8. The new chaos spawn is great too. Yet another good contender for an already crowded spot within fast attack.


My opinion on CSM Fast Attack:

In my reality, there are no CSM biker models. A tangential effect to my inability to see Finecast models, I think. So I ignore the datasheet out of hand.

I think the Raptors are fine, but too many points. They are Fast Attack, without ObSec and less options than Legionaries. I honestly think they could be the same price as Legionaries, given those limitations. However, I know GW doesn't think that way, so 1 more point than Legionaries would make them a more comfortable pick to me. As they are going to be removed pretty fast. Additionally, most legions don't have jump pack HQs to buff them up anymore, taking some of their strength away. However, before this codex my Raptors were always in the running for MVP, as 9th really values speed. I feel like they'll do pretty well when I run a Worldclaimer and Raptor focused list.

Chaos Spawn are wonderful for the price, but I don't know if they find a home in my lists. I only have the basic 2 and haven't got around to rolling bits into greenstuff yet. Additionally, their 7" Move isn't enough from what I want from my Fast Attack. I could easily see a CSM player casting Warp Time on a squad of 5 for early objective claiming. Even if the Spawn don't hold their ground, the resources it would take to remove them is going to create a lot of breathing room for the rest of the CSM army.

Warp Talons are a bit of an X factor for me. They've almost always suffer the Raptors fragility (that 5++ doesn't seem to do much for me) while being less flexible as a melee only unit and more points to field. My game this weekend, I am going to give them a go, but even with several elements capable of giving them buffs, I highly doubt my Warp Talons are going to be any near close enough to receive them.



You forgot about Venom crawlers. They are really good especially for their points cost. They are also the perfect screen for the Lord Disco.

I am not sure Raptors have a place except for maybe a min squad with some melta to DS and take backfield objectives. They can't have an Icon, so ten with Khorne can't get the extra -1 to the chain-swords which is what makes a 10 man Legionary squad with chain-swords look so tasty. If you are running them for a close combat beat stick, I think Warptalons are much better even with the significant increase in cost. But with only a 5 man squad it is a difference of 35 points and that is with the Raptors running bare, so once you put guns on them, only like 15 points. And 5 warptalons can give most units the business, as I have seen.




Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/08 21:55:10


Post by: EviscerationPlague


Raptors just don't have much a place outside Black Legion since they have an actual Lord to catch up to them, but one can argue Red Corsairs can SLIGHTLY catch up since an advance + charge, even at a longer distance, is still probable.

Also it depends on how they can be loaded up. If they get 2 special weapons per 5 (and not just two in general) you can use them like you would Legionaires would want to be used.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 00:39:01


Post by: Daedalus81


EviscerationPlague wrote:

But why Chosen over Terminators?


Cheaper though I also don't own enough terminators yet. Also, icon.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 02:12:07


Post by: Eldenfirefly


It feels like Abaddon goes really well with a Landraider. Consider this jank we can do. He starts 9 inches from the land raider on the left flank. The LR is in the center. So, your opponent deploys chaff on the left to stall Abby and more of his forces on the right flank. Turn 1, Abaddon moves within 3 inches of the LR and embarks on it. The LR then moves straight up the center 10 inches.

Turn 2, Abaddon disembarks on the right side of the Landraider. (The landraider has a big base). And he moves 6 inches diagonal and charges. (He also gets to reroll his charge because of his warlord trait) So that's a 9 inch + rerollable 2d6 inch threat range. If he gets into combat, pile in 3 inches, destroys what he touches, and consolidates 3 inches. Now he is literally deep in the right flank of your opponent, where your opponent didn't expect him to be!

Also, let's say with Abaddon crushing what he touched on turn 2, and the rest of your forces in that flank will dominate that flank. So, you no longer need Abaddon on that flank. Turn 3, he can move back the way he came from and embark back into LR and the LR can then move 10 inches towards the last holdout flank. Turn 4, once again, Abaddon will have a disembark 9 inch + 2d6 threat range into the last holdout flank. The tactical flexibility is just insane.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 03:20:39


Post by: Daedalus81


Eldenfirefly wrote:
It feels like Abaddon goes really well with a Landraider. Consider this jank we can do. He starts 9 inches from the land raider on the left flank. The LR is in the center. So, your opponent deploys chaff on the left to stall Abby and more of his forces on the right flank. Turn 1, Abaddon moves within 3 inches of the LR and embarks on it. The LR then moves straight up the center 10 inches.

Turn 2, Abaddon disembarks on the right side of the Landraider. (The landraider has a big base). And he moves 6 inches diagonal and charges. So that's a 9 inch + 2d6 inch threat range. If he gets into combat, pile in 3 inches, destroys what he touches, and consolidates 3 inches. Now he is literally deep in the right flank of your opponent, where your opponent didn't expect him to be!


Abaddon can advance and charge with Red Corsairs through 'Confluence of Traitors', right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CSM beat Levi Nids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZrjhXNhesM&ab_channel=WatchersIntheDark

I haven't watched the whole battle yet to get anything from it. The CSM list is CoB and somewhat unusual.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 05:09:35


Post by: p5freak


What is Confluence of Traitors ?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 06:09:02


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:

But why Chosen over Terminators?


Cheaper though I also don't own enough terminators yet. Also, icon.


Icon is just additional AP on the guns though right? For the cost, I'd argue just getting double shots from the Terminators per model is just way better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:
What is Confluence of Traitors ?

Give a Black Legion unit the Legion rules for another Legion I think


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 06:39:19


Post by: Dr.Duck


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
It feels like Abaddon goes really well with a Landraider. Consider this jank we can do. He starts 9 inches from the land raider on the left flank. The LR is in the center. So, your opponent deploys chaff on the left to stall Abby and more of his forces on the right flank. Turn 1, Abaddon moves within 3 inches of the LR and embarks on it. The LR then moves straight up the center 10 inches.

Turn 2, Abaddon disembarks on the right side of the Landraider. (The landraider has a big base). And he moves 6 inches diagonal and charges. So that's a 9 inch + 2d6 inch threat range. If he gets into combat, pile in 3 inches, destroys what he touches, and consolidates 3 inches. Now he is literally deep in the right flank of your opponent, where your opponent didn't expect him to be!


Abaddon can advance and charge with Red Corsairs through 'Confluence of Traitors', right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CSM beat Levi Nids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZrjhXNhesM&ab_channel=WatchersIntheDark

I haven't watched the whole battle yet to get anything from it. The CSM list is CoB and somewhat unusual.


There isnt anything I see that would say he cant benefit from another legion tactic.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 08:12:35


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Dr.Duck wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
It feels like Abaddon goes really well with a Landraider. Consider this jank we can do. He starts 9 inches from the land raider on the left flank. The LR is in the center. So, your opponent deploys chaff on the left to stall Abby and more of his forces on the right flank. Turn 1, Abaddon moves within 3 inches of the LR and embarks on it. The LR then moves straight up the center 10 inches.

Turn 2, Abaddon disembarks on the right side of the Landraider. (The landraider has a big base). And he moves 6 inches diagonal and charges. So that's a 9 inch + 2d6 inch threat range. If he gets into combat, pile in 3 inches, destroys what he touches, and consolidates 3 inches. Now he is literally deep in the right flank of your opponent, where your opponent didn't expect him to be!


Abaddon can advance and charge with Red Corsairs through 'Confluence of Traitors', right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CSM beat Levi Nids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZrjhXNhesM&ab_channel=WatchersIntheDark

I haven't watched the whole battle yet to get anything from it. The CSM list is CoB and somewhat unusual.


There isnt anything I see that would say he cant benefit from another legion tactic.


Yup, Abaddon can use "Confluence of Traitors". But it needs to be done during the command phase. And if he is in a Land Raider during the command phase, then I don't think you can use the strategem on him.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 09:20:20


Post by: LeRufus


Quick question:
Using demonic ritual, I can summon any Figure/Unit (HQ, Troop, Elite, Fast Attack,...) from the Codex? (Given that I roll good enough)

Or is it limited to Troops (for example)?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 10:27:00


Post by: p5freak


Yes, you can summon anything from the codex if the roll is high enough.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 13:34:23


Post by: Xirax


Hey,
found termies a lackluster hitting like a wet sock with accursed weapons, could upgrade some melee weapons..

..but, do you think 9-10man chosen squad bare bones marked with slaanesh and icon is a trap?

I do two rhino's going on each flank, one has 9-10man khorne marked and icon legionaires and one has chosen with support.

Trying out 2x 2man oblits next game, used to run 1x 3man. Playing red corsairs and have MoP, DP, LD 2x venomcrawlers smashing from the center.

Doing a 9-10man chosen is good target for strats, but is a trap? Already have that big melee legionaires. 9-10 is because bought a master of execution today and wondering if I would stuck it along with either of the bigger groups in a rhino.

1. Big blob of chosen a trap?
2. Experiences how to field MoE?
3. 2x 2man oblits vs. 1x 3man?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 14:29:01


Post by: EviscerationPlague


I think Chosen are a trap in general. Terminators do all the same stuff, and it isn't like having access to Icons makes them super great. They don't have weight of firepower to really use the Icons for Nurgle and Tzeentch, Icon for Khorne just makes the AP-3 overkill with their melee, so in reality you're just wanting the WS2 for the Slaanesh icon. However, you're just hitting with Accursed weapons and they already only have as many attacks each as basic Legionaires (whom get more benefit from both melee Icons, as they have the Axe and Champ Power Fist to get more from Slaanesh, and AP-2 on all Chainswords is a bigger deal for Khorne) and Terminators. That's not even getting into Possessed.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 16:11:35


Post by: Daedalus81


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yup, Abaddon can use "Confluence of Traitors". But it needs to be done during the command phase. And if he is in a Land Raider during the command phase, then I don't think you can use the strategem on him.


Ah, good point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Icon is just additional AP on the guns though right? For the cost, I'd argue just getting double shots from the Terminators per model is just way better.


My general thought is to eventually lean into plasma with them. At AP4 with explosions for 4 out of 5 rounds they can hurt a little. If they don't have rerolls then just going D1 should be "ok". Terminators are limited to 2 plasma only and Chosen combi put them on the same level of terminator combi-plas shooting so the gap is narrow for 40 to 50 points cheaper, which is a couple extra Chosen.

I'll have to strip points somewhere first though.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 16:44:54


Post by: xeen


So had a game against Blood Angels yesterday. My list was Word Bearers and as follows:
Lord Disco (flames of spite and undivided daemon weapon)
MoP (tome)
Warpsmith
5 x CSM with daemon weapon and plasma gun and plasma pistol
10 x cultists
10 x cultists
9 x terminators mark of Tzeentch (Rune)
9 x Chosen (relic sword)
Venom Crawler
Venom Crawler
5 x warptalons
Landradier
3 x Oblits

His list was some of the scout like primaris troops and a ton of different jump pack units, some eradicators, Donte and some support characters. I ended up winning pretty lop sided at the end. Unit analysis below:

Word Bearers trait - I think it is one of the better traits unless you are building some kind of shoot-y vehicle list. The re-roll hits first round is clutch. And the mortal wound protection was excellent, even though my opponent did not have any mortal wound units because it save my MoP from dying from perils and saved two wounds on my Lord Disco from an explosion. I think with my melee focused army this will be my go to trait.

Lord Disco - The combo of flames of spite and the undivided daemon weapon is unreal. He kills any unit he gets into combat with. The second time I attacked with him he did 8 mortal wounds (rolled two sixes) with six attacks. Annihilated the character he was fighting, and I did not even get to fight with his other attacks both times he fought as the main attacks just killed everything. Also I was worried about survivability without the half damage warlord trait, but 1CP for -1 damage is basically as good.

MoP - he does what he does, T5 terminators and resurrection. He's great and in every Chaos list out there.

Warpsmith - not much to say. Just gave Landraider +1 to hit and healed it every turn. He did finish off a heavily damaged unit with his shooting so that's something.

Legionaries - I mean they held an objective and did some fighting mid board. I like the daemon blade as it gives a bit more punch in combat for what is essentially a mid-field objective holder, but not sure if it is worth 10 points.

Cultists - they show up. They hold back objectives or screen for deep strike. Enemy looks at them. Their dead.

Terminators - These guys are really good. I expect the Rune to get nerfed as it makes them so tank-y with the T5 from the MoP. And I have not had any issues with them failing to kill units, specifically with the re-roll to hit. They killed 8 of those golden jump back guys that Blood Angles have in one round, and with two of them not in engagement range. Negating the +1 to wound BA have was good, my opponent commented on how he really felt the effect of it, and I said imagine if he did not have that ability it would have been worse. Mark of Tzeentch saved two terminators over the game. Downside they are slow.

Chosen - so due to positioning and the way the game went, they never got out of the Landraider. I mean if we played turn 5 they would have to kill a single guy on an objective, but did not really get to see them against a good opponent. Guess they were busy playing xbox in the tank.

Venom crawlers - they did their job. Screened the Lord Disco. Their shooting is pretty medicore, but melee is good. I like the explode of 5's for a unit that is quick and in the enemy lines.

Warptalons - These guys are money. I think 5 is the way to roll with them because more is probably overkill against all but the hardest of enemies, and 5 is cheap enough that if you end up only using them for quick objective grabs and actions it is not a total waste. These guys were my MVPs of this game taking an objective early, killing a squad that charged them via interrupt, doing an action to score points, denying an objective, then going in an killing one of his last remaining units. Turn 5 would have had them take his backfield objective. They are fast, hit hard, and great utility. I highly recommend 5 in almost any build.

Oblits - These guys actually did some good work in shooting. That is because I only used the second profile not the third. I think that is the way these guys need to be used is not as AT with the big shots, but basically like plasma with the mid-level shots. Against anything that is not -1 damage I think the mid-level might be better than the big shot. Also I have not used the low level shot yet, but against armies without armor of contempt I think it could be the way to go against most units.

Landraider - yea so this thing is soooooooooo much better. The T9 made a huge difference when it bounced two melta hits that would have wounded T8. And the Laser cannon +2 damage made a huge difference as every wound killed one of his elite infantry, no rolling a 1 or 2 for guys to survive. I can't wait to see how it does against vehicles. Also the Warpsmith giving it plus 1 to hit and healing the few wounds that do get though it probably worth the points to support such an expensive unit.

Well I hope this was helpful. LET THE GALAXY BURN!!!!!!!!!







Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 16:52:59


Post by: Tyel


I don't know about a trap - but I think a big unit of Chosen is potentially expensive with sort of weird trading dynamics as a result.

I.E. A 5 man squad with 2 combi-weapons (melta or plasma) for 145 points gives you a unit that seems threatening to a fair number of things in the game. I also feel at that price if the unit dies its not the end of the world. I'm not sure its the best thing in the book - but its not explicitly bad vs 40k as a whole. Sure its only 30 points more to get 5 Terminators with say 2 combi meltas - but I'm not convinced that's a no-brainer if you were putting those points in elsewhere.

By contrast if you go down the road off taking 10, you are up to 250 points. 20 for a mark and icon. potentially 40 for 4 combi-weapons. That just seems like a unit that potentially fails to find something suitable to go after - and then gets eaten by something nastier up the food chain.

I think a 10 man blob of Terminators (55~ points more?) has more of a place - but its going down a MoT road, with say the Black Rune. I think they do hit like wet noodles for the points - but its harder for your opponent to just pick them up, so they should hold a portion of the table for a few turns.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 21:01:17


Post by: Daedalus81


Tyel wrote:
I don't know about a trap - but I think a big unit of Chosen is potentially expensive with sort of weird trading dynamics as a result.

I.E. A 5 man squad with 2 combi-weapons (melta or plasma) for 145 points gives you a unit that seems threatening to a fair number of things in the game. I also feel at that price if the unit dies its not the end of the world. I'm not sure its the best thing in the book - but its not explicitly bad vs 40k as a whole. Sure its only 30 points more to get 5 Terminators with say 2 combi meltas - but I'm not convinced that's a no-brainer if you were putting those points in elsewhere.

By contrast if you go down the road off taking 10, you are up to 250 points. 20 for a mark and icon. potentially 40 for 4 combi-weapons. That just seems like a unit that potentially fails to find something suitable to go after - and then gets eaten by something nastier up the food chain.

I think a 10 man blob of Terminators (55~ points more?) has more of a place - but its going down a MoT road, with say the Black Rune. I think they do hit like wet noodles for the points - but its harder for your opponent to just pick them up, so they should hold a portion of the table for a few turns.


- Icon in BL makes you effective immune to attrition
- Terminators can't stack on one particular weapon as easily
- A 55 point difference is enough to slide in two more Chosen in comparison
- Chosen bring the same number of swings in melee and the same number of shots if they're bringing combi-*

Their special rule is cute, but if you can pick up a small unit then they'll effectively always be exploding regardless of the circumstance, which makes small units dangerous to expose to them.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 22:19:06


Post by: Dr.Duck


Terminators Must have fists to deal damage. In a 10 man unit you can have 6+2 chainfists. Some one on reddit did the math and Accursed fall super short in most areas. Chaos have many ways to get rerolls which offset the fists main drawback.

Shooting in terms is lacking in AT but can clear chaff pretty well with lots of shots. in 10 you can get 2 Heavy flamers and 4 combi flamers. 2D6 +4 S5 and 4D6+8 S4 plus 32 bolter shots is pretty decent.

Bro seriously what is up with this jank? Terms standard load out is fists and we cant even have a unit full of them?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 22:47:13


Post by: Daedalus81


 Dr.Duck wrote:
Terminators Must have fists to deal damage. In a 10 man unit you can have 6+2 chainfists. Some one on reddit did the math and Accursed fall super short in most areas. Chaos have many ways to get rerolls which offset the fists main drawback.

Shooting in terms is lacking in AT but can clear chaff pretty well with lots of shots. in 10 you can get 2 Heavy flamers and 4 combi flamers. 2D6 +4 S5 and 4D6+8 S4 plus 32 bolter shots is pretty decent.

Bro seriously what is up with this jank? Terms standard load out is fists and we cant even have a unit full of them?


Only 2 combi-flamers allowed, sadly.

Black Legion terminators can hit on 2s with fists fairly easily if that's your jam.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/09 22:50:15


Post by: Dr.Duck


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Dr.Duck wrote:
Terminators Must have fists to deal damage. In a 10 man unit you can have 6+2 chainfists. Some one on reddit did the math and Accursed fall super short in most areas. Chaos have many ways to get rerolls which offset the fists main drawback.

Shooting in terms is lacking in AT but can clear chaff pretty well with lots of shots. in 10 you can get 2 Heavy flamers and 4 combi flamers. 2D6 +4 S5 and 4D6+8 S4 plus 32 bolter shots is pretty decent.

Bro seriously what is up with this jank? Terms standard load out is fists and we cant even have a unit full of them?


Only 2 combi-flamers allowed, sadly.

Black Legion terminators can hit on 2s with fists fairly easily if that's your jam.



Ya 2 per 5 and 4 per 10

I feel like you have to take fists if you wanna do damage. I dont think theres too much spaming of single wound infantry other than guard and the flamers/bolters should take care of most of it. You still have 2 accursted weapons in the unit. and somewhere between 30 and 45 attacks if you using the BL strategem.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 00:28:50


Post by: Rogzor87


Did I miss something is Cypher and Fallen gone?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 01:11:19


Post by: Dr.Duck


 Rogzor87 wrote:
Did I miss something is Cypher and Fallen gone?


Cypher is in there but the fallen dont have a kit. I couldnt find them in the book


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 01:13:52


Post by: Rogzor87


 Dr.Duck wrote:


Cypher is in there but the fallen dont have a kit. I couldnt find them in the book



): That is a big shame. Well cool Cypher is in there still. I'll have to look to see what his rules and such are.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 04:29:39


Post by: Eldenfirefly


So one of the earlier posts mention this as well. And some of my games have raised this out. We tend to skew towards melee. This means we benefit the most once we get to turn 3 onwards when we hit Wanton Slaughter. This is when we start getting exploding 6s in combat.

So, this makes me wonder if we spend turn 1 or 2 positioning and doing secondaries. And then turn 3 onwards is when we go all in with a massive melee knockout punch.

To this end, we can consider small units of 1 or 2 chaos spawn as a trading unit, or to just throw them on an objective to be irritating in turn 1 or 2. They have their ridiculous renegeration rule, are T5 and are so cheap we won't care much even if they die.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 05:42:57


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Dr.Duck wrote:
Terminators Must have fists to deal damage. In a 10 man unit you can have 6+2 chainfists. Some one on reddit did the math and Accursed fall super short in most areas. Chaos have many ways to get rerolls which offset the fists main drawback.

Shooting in terms is lacking in AT but can clear chaff pretty well with lots of shots. in 10 you can get 2 Heavy flamers and 4 combi flamers. 2D6 +4 S5 and 4D6+8 S4 plus 32 bolter shots is pretty decent.

Bro seriously what is up with this jank? Terms standard load out is fists and we cant even have a unit full of them?


Only 2 combi-flamers allowed, sadly.

Black Legion terminators can hit on 2s with fists fairly easily if that's your jam.


I thought it was 2 Melta, 1 Flamer, 1 Plasma?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 06:12:35


Post by: p5freak


EviscerationPlague wrote:

I thought it was 2 Melta, 1 Flamer, 1 Plasma?


Yes, for every 5 termis.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 07:43:33


Post by: Dr.Duck


 p5freak wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:

I thought it was 2 Melta, 1 Flamer, 1 Plasma?


Yes, for every 5 termis.


its 2 flamer 2 melta 1 plasma per 5

3 fist 1 chain fist 1 double acursed (presumably for double lightning claw) per 5

1 heavy weapon per 5


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
So one of the earlier posts mention this as well. And some of my games have raised this out. We tend to skew towards melee. This means we benefit the most once we get to turn 3 onwards when we hit Wanton Slaughter. This is when we start getting exploding 6s in combat.

So, this makes me wonder if we spend turn 1 or 2 positioning and doing secondaries. And then turn 3 onwards is when we go all in with a massive melee knockout punch.

To this end, we can consider small units of 1 or 2 chaos spawn as a trading unit, or to just throw them on an objective to be irritating in turn 1 or 2. They have their ridiculous renegeration rule, are T5 and are so cheap we won't care much even if they die.


I want to run squads of chaos spawn so bad. They seem so great as a skirmishing unit. But I feel like they compete with another amazing skirmishing unit the VC and to a lesser extent Warp talons and bikes.

All of these including spawn will likely trade up in points and out right win against other skirmishing units. I just really wish we had more than3 FA.

Gonna see if we cant actually manage to run a brigade just maxing out MSU. Quite a few of our options like talons, possessed, cralwers legionies with book upgrade are quite cheap and function very well in small units partly because our melee output is pretty insane.

You can barely fill out the brigade without taking more really sub par options. Prob not feasible. But I could fit in 3 units of single chaos spawn lol.
 

**++ Brigade Detachment -4CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [99 PL, 1,930pts, -4CP] ++**

 

**+ Configuration +**

 

**Detachment Command Cost [-4CP]**

 

**Gametype**

 

**Legion**

 

**+ HQ +**

 

**Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 175pts]:** Chaos Undivided, Helstalker autocannon, Techno-virus injector

 

**Master of Possession [6 PL, 105pts]:** Chaos Undivided

 

**Master of Possession [6 PL, 105pts]:** Chaos Undivided

 

**+ Troops +**

 

**Cultist Mob [2 PL, 50pts]**


. **9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm:** 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

. **Cultist Champion:** Autopistol

 

**Cultist Mob [2 PL, 50pts]**


. **9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm:** 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

. **Cultist Champion:** Autopistol

 

**Cultist Mob [2 PL, 50pts]**


. **9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm:** 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

. **Cultist Champion:** Autopistol

 

**Cultist Mob [2 PL, 50pts]**


. **9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm:** 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

. **Cultist Champion:** Autopistol

 

**Legionaries [6 PL, 120pts]:** Chaos Undivided


. **Aspiring Champion:** Boltgun, Power fist

. **Marine w/ balefire tome:** Balefire tome

. **3x Marine w/ boltgun:** 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

 

**Legionaries [6 PL, 120pts]:** Chaos Undivided


. **Aspiring Champion:** Boltgun, Power fist

. **Marine w/ balefire tome:** Balefire tome

. **3x Marine w/ boltgun:** 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

 

**+ Elites +**

 

**Master of Executions [4 PL, 65pts]:** Chaos Undivided

 

**Possessed [7 PL, 140pts]:** Possessed Champion


. **4x Possessed:** 4x Hideous mutations

 

**Possessed [7 PL, 140pts]:** Possessed Champion


. **4x Possessed:** 4x Hideous mutations

 

**+ Fast Attack +**

 

**Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 25pts]:** Chaos Spawn

 

**Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]**

 

**Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]**

 

**Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]**

 

**+ Heavy Support +**

 

**Chaos Vindicator [7 PL, 140pts]:** Vindicator siege shield

 

**Chaos Vindicator [7 PL, 140pts]:** Vindicator siege shield

 

**Chaos Vindicator [7 PL, 140pts]:** Vindicator siege shield

 

**++ Total: [99 PL, -4CP, 1,930pts] ++**

 

Created with [BattleScribe](https://www.battlescribe.net)


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 10:20:53


Post by: p5freak


Whats so great about the VC ? It can hardly hide, has a big base, and cant move through ruins, spawns can hide, and move through ruins.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 11:14:59


Post by: EightFoldPath


For anyone who is new to tactica thread's and is confused by the Daedalus posts, he has two character traits:
Off the cuff, confident rules statements which are wrong - e.g. number of combi-flamers in a terminator unit. I'm sure he has admitted in the past he rushes to post things rather than check.
A pathological need to be contrarion and non-orthodox, and to try to find the hidden gem that everyone else has overlooked whether it exists or not - e.g. Chosen, Helbrutes and also see his body of work in the TS thread regarding Scarab Occult. Given how early we are in the release of the codex, experimentation is good and it doesn't drastically hurt to have someone throwing ideas against the wall. But just be mindful that he will avoid talking about the best units in the book.

My current thinking is that Terminators and Possessed both stand out as much more efficient than the other similar options.

I think you can over equip the Terminators though.

My own off the cuff hot take - 10 Cultists are much better than 5 Legionaries by savings you 40 points, so if you have the terminators/bikers/raptors to not take them, you won't.

 p5freak wrote:
Whats so great about the VC ? It can hardly hide, has a big base, and cant move through ruins, spawns can hide, and move through ruins.

It has speed, meaningful shooting and meaningful melee. So very efficient for points, it should probably be 120 not 105. DG's Myphytic Blight Hauler started at 140 and has only just made it to 120 eighteen months later. Although I think you could argue that MBH (and FBD) are both overcosted at 120 compared to the top factions, and maybe they should be 105, not sure on that, we will need to see a lot more games.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 12:59:08


Post by: Eldenfirefly


The Master of Possession's Psychic Mutated invigoration (+1 toughness or +1 strength) is soooo good. Its single handed making me relook some daemon engines which I in the past didn't think much of.

Consider this. Almost all our daemon engines, be it venomcrawler, Maulerfiend and forgefiend are T7. They are relatively easy to wreck with enough Str8 guns, or indeed any kind of anti tank shooting. But what if they were T8 instead of T7 ? (because of the mutated invigoration psychic).

Suddenly, a T8 Maulerfiend charging up one flank looks like it can survive some anti tank fire, and once it does survive to reach the enemy lines, the carnage is going to be so awesome.

Even a 105 point venomcrawler. Its already very efficient and cheap for its points. But what if we boosted it to T8 with the psychic. Now we have a T8 daemon engine that can do serious damage on a lightly defended objective, and it should beat a lot of stuff that are usually stood up on such an objective. And it can't even be degraded! It suddenly looks like a really good deal now for just 105 points. And at T8, your opponent can't just shoot 2 Str 8 shots at it and hope for the best. Statiscially, a T8 venom crawler with a 5++ invul save requires 9 dark lance shots at it to get 2 shots through all its T8 and saves. 9 dark lance shots! Can you imagine a drukhari army wasting such much good firepower trying to kill off this 105 point model? lol.

And that Maulerfiend with 12 wounds? If it has T8 (because of the psychic). You need 13 to 14 shots of dark lances to get 3 shots through its Toughness and saves. (Because 2 shots through is unlikely to kill it). 13 !!! An opponent could quite easily underestimate how much ranged firepower is needed to kill this Maulerfiend, fail to kill it, and now we have it stomping through their lines inflicting carnage.

And you really only need that T8 for just round 1 and 2. After that, when the daemon engine is in your opponent lines, trashing around killing stuff, it has survived long enough to achieve its purpose already.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 13:15:51


Post by: EightFoldPath


It is very good.

You can put the spell on any Legion unit, the DAEMONKIN / DAEMON ENGINE rider only matters if you are getting a 10+ result for the spell.

The most efficient targets for it are the most expensive units and those units where the Toughness going up one really matters.

Which yet again leads us back to 10 Terminators with their T4, where +1T matters vs S4, S5 and S8. Also being a Toughness boost you can combine it with a -1 to wound relic...

This is of course also why it is nice for the +1S too. Functionally a +1 to wound against some targets that you can then stack with a real +1 to wound.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 19:38:04


Post by: locarno24


 Rogzor87 wrote:
 Dr.Duck wrote:


Cypher is in there but the fallen dont have a kit. I couldnt find them in the book



): That is a big shame. Well cool Cypher is in there still. I'll have to look to see what his rules and such are.


Cypher is pretty good. He's a pistol-wielder and has....basically a sort of transhuman physiology but on the to hit roll, he doesn't take up a slot if you have a chaos lord and he keeps a version of the 'no free command points for you! Rule from the fallen angels detachment.

Plus he can 'so long suckas!' Himself into reserves once per game.



If you want to do a fallen angels force....I guess a chosen vanguard? Not sure which Legion fits fallen best, though.

Hopefully we get a - less awful - army of reknown version of the white Dwarf index.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 19:43:35


Post by: EviscerationPlague


EightFoldPath wrote:
For anyone who is new to tactica thread's and is confused by the Daedalus posts, he has two character traits:
Off the cuff, confident rules statements which are wrong - e.g. number of combi-flamers in a terminator unit. I'm sure he has admitted in the past he rushes to post things rather than check.
A pathological need to be contrarion and non-orthodox, and to try to find the hidden gem that everyone else has overlooked whether it exists or not - e.g. Chosen, Helbrutes and also see his body of work in the TS thread regarding Scarab Occult. Given how early we are in the release of the codex, experimentation is good and it doesn't drastically hurt to have someone throwing ideas against the wall. But just be mindful that he will avoid talking about the best units in the book.

My current thinking is that Terminators and Possessed both stand out as much more efficient than the other similar options.

I think you can over equip the Terminators though.

My own off the cuff hot take - 10 Cultists are much better than 5 Legionaries by savings you 40 points, so if you have the terminators/bikers/raptors to not take them, you won't.

 p5freak wrote:
Whats so great about the VC ? It can hardly hide, has a big base, and cant move through ruins, spawns can hide, and move through ruins.

It has speed, meaningful shooting and meaningful melee. So very efficient for points, it should probably be 120 not 105. DG's Myphytic Blight Hauler started at 140 and has only just made it to 120 eighteen months later. Although I think you could argue that MBH (and FBD) are both overcosted at 120 compared to the top factions, and maybe they should be 105, not sure on that, we will need to see a lot more games.

I agree with Cultists looking more attractive than Legionaires right now. Their shooting is meh and they can't specialize, and the melee doesn't have enough multi damage. Meanwhile, if confirmed after the two week errata that Rubrics taken with an Icon in this codex = AP-3, my list will 100% be a Vanguard detachment.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 20:00:22


Post by: xeen


How are people running possessed? I feel like 5 might not be enough for an anchor unit but 10 might be overkill against most units. I was thinking of using 10 with the -1 wound relic (which I believe they can take) as my center unit instead of ten terminators and make the terminators 5 man and deep strike them right harass backfield. Or 5 possessed to support the ten man terminator squad in the center. Thoughts?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 20:06:01


Post by: EviscerationPlague


Possessed don't get access to Relics for the Champ. If you want them tougher, you need to shell out for psyker support.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 20:24:51


Post by: locarno24


locarno24 wrote:
 Rogzor87 wrote:
 Dr.Duck wrote:


Cypher is in there but the fallen dont have a kit. I couldnt find them in the book



): That is a big shame. Well cool Cypher is in there still. I'll have to look to see what his rules and such are.


If you want to do a fallen angels force....I guess a chosen vanguard? Not sure which Legion fits fallen best, though.

Hopefully we get a - less awful - army of reknown version of the white Dwarf index.


Thinking about it: two things occur which annoy.

1) the odds are low of a Fallen Angels AoR because in keeping with the Terminus Est Assault Force and Warpmeld Pact, we're likely to get a Traitor Guard AoR that gets rid of, or even reverses, Mere Mortals - because making such a big deal of "you've got all these new cultist options" but then sticking the limitation of 'but you've gotta bring a CORE INFANTRY unit for each one' kind of ruins the idea of a mostly cultist army.

2) There is an official Fallen kit. It's an alternate use of the Dark Angels Company Veterans kit but GW specifically sells it to you as a Fallen Angels kit.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 20:38:56


Post by: EightFoldPath


EviscerationPlague wrote:
Possessed don't get access to Relics for the Champ. If you want them tougher, you need to shell out for psyker support.

They do get access. The Possessed Champion has the word Champion so can take a relic, but most of the relics other than the Rune require a specific weapon which they don't have. Same issue with Warp Talons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also think it is very very unlikely the first CSM FAQ is going to buff Rubric shooting to 3AP.

 xeen wrote:
How are people running possessed? I feel like 5 might not be enough for an anchor unit but 10 might be overkill against most units. I was thinking of using 10 with the -1 wound relic (which I believe they can take) as my center unit instead of ten terminators and make the terminators 5 man and deep strike them right harass backfield. Or 5 possessed to support the ten man terminator squad in the center. Thoughts?

I think the Possessed can be the anchor unit just like Terminators. There is some clunkiness to them as they can't get Dark Apostle prayer buffs and miss out on some strategems as well due to lacking CORE, but they are just very efficient at 9.33 points per T5 3+/5++ wound.

I think 10 + 5 + 5 + 5 (+ 5 + 5) of any mix of Terminators/Possessed is worth testing out, the basic units at 140 and 165 are nice trade pieces. But, we also may find that 10 + 10 + 5 (+ 5 + 5 + 5) is more where we end up or 10 + 10 + 10. As I've said before I do think there could be a place for Chosen as the 3rd 10 (or Warp Talons or Raptors or Bikers or Rubrics or Plague Marines or Bezerkers) but you would have to have a compelling reason for taking them. Those other faster units do get more interesting as substitutes for the 5 man trade pieces.

I find it really interesting that Possessed and Warp Talons are the same cost at 28 points. I'm not convinced they are worth the same points but in theory someone at GW is (assuming they don't use dice or a dart board to determine points).


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 21:55:08


Post by: Dr.Duck


Excuse my lack of practical knowledge but does this new codex have the tools to crack chunky units that either have high armor AOC and or have chronic access to -1D? A lot of our workhorse units only sport -2 AP and are usually D2 which means we lose a lot of value against those modifiers.

MW are the obvious answers to get around this but I’m unsure if the ways we apply them are consistent.

Off the top of my head we gave flames of spite disco and the master of executions. And maybe abaddon. Wondering if things like decimators might be needed in metas that frequently pose these problems.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 22:43:32


Post by: EviscerationPlague


EightFoldPath wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Possessed don't get access to Relics for the Champ. If you want them tougher, you need to shell out for psyker support.

They do get access. The Possessed Champion has the word Champion so can take a relic, but most of the relics other than the Rune require a specific weapon which they don't have. Same issue with Warp Talons.

Thought the unit needed to be CORE too? Well, that certainly helps then.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/10 23:55:10


Post by: xeen


I think if you want to use chosen the only “advantage” they have over terminators or possessed is they can ride in a rhino. Kind of like the way people use beserkers.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 00:43:38


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Dr.Duck wrote:
Excuse my lack of practical knowledge but does this new codex have the tools to crack chunky units that either have high armor AOC and or have chronic access to -1D? A lot of our workhorse units only sport -2 AP and are usually D2 which means we lose a lot of value against those modifiers.

MW are the obvious answers to get around this but I’m unsure if the ways we apply them are consistent.

Off the top of my head we gave flames of spite disco and the master of executions. And maybe abaddon. Wondering if things like decimators might be needed in metas that frequently pose these problems.


We could also rely on weight of dice. Accursed weapons are AP3, with icon of Khorne, they would be AP4. They are all damage 1, so the -1 damage basically doesn't affect them. A unit of 10 plus the aspiring champion. There's 41 attacks, and wanton slaughter gives that exploding hits, you can reroll hits, use fury of khorne for 6s auto wounds, or use veterans of the long war for +1 to wound. (or save 2cp by just having your MOP cast a psychic instead). Black legion also has a strategem (abit expensive) called "Tip of the Spear" that gives your unit reroll charges and adds 1 AP to melee. You won't delete an entire unit of blight lord terminators, but I think you would take a massive chunk off with that charge. With blightlords you don't even need anything more than AP3 because they have a 4++ invul anyway. So just focus on getting better to hit and wound.

Take let's take the blightlord terminators with terminator armor and AOC, and 4++ and digustingly resilient. AP3 is enough. So just mark of khorne or casting the mutated invigoration to +1 strength is enough to make accursed weapons str 6 which gives us 3s to wound. Black legion already gives us 2s to wound once we charge in. (Or use wrath of the chosen for +1 to hit). Even a daemon prince or lord is enough for a reroll 1s to hit. Lets assume we are in wanton slaughter. We can also do Fury of Khorne but lets leave that for now.

41 attacks will result in 46.7 hits because of exploding 6s and reroll 1s. 3s to wound would mean 31.1 wounds getting through. He gets his 4++ save and disgustingly resilient doesn't matter. So, half of that means 15.56 wounds gets through. So, that's 5 blightlord terminators dead. Pretty nice big chunk against one of the most durable units in the game. Add that daemon prince or chaos lord nearby that was giving reroll 1st to hit and if it can kill 2 or 3 more and there won't be much left of that big 10 man blightlord unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 xeen wrote:
I think if you want to use chosen the only “advantage” they have over terminators or possessed is they can ride in a rhino. Kind of like the way people use beserkers.


It is a big advantage in certain situations though. I am rediscovering the power of transports with CSM. Our rhinos are only 80 points now. And with the embark and disembark rules, there are some interesting re-positioning jank we can do with transports (see my example with Abaddon in an earlier post on page 5). Even within a Land raider. If you want to embark a character into a landraider, then you only have space left for chosen or other elites instead of possessed and terminators.

I love the idea of putting 2 min squads of infantry into a Rhino. We get 2 units that can do stuff plus the rhino itself for a very mobile package with a big threat range when the 2 units disembark. Even two units of Chosen in a Rhino. Turn 1 advance up. Turn 2, disembark and charge deep into a flank. Is your opponent prepared for 30 wounds worth of chosen in combat with him deep down one flank on turn 2? Or a unit of zerkers and a unit of chosen. Whichever combination of elites we want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 xeen wrote:
How are people running possessed? I feel like 5 might not be enough for an anchor unit but 10 might be overkill against most units. I was thinking of using 10 with the -1 wound relic (which I believe they can take) as my center unit instead of ten terminators and make the terminators 5 man and deep strike them right harass backfield. Or 5 possessed to support the ten man terminator squad in the center. Thoughts?


I have been trying out a 5 man squad so far. More tactically flexible. But I don't use them as my big center unit. I tend to run them up slightly at the flank straight through the cover and ruins. Possessed with the -1 to wound relic are amazing.

I kind of wonder at how enduring this 10 man terminator block buffed to the max defensively will be. I know it will take some opponents by surprise. But pretty soon, I bet people will learn to just not waste their time on such a block. They will treat it like they do any 10 man terminator bloc (as something that is super hard to kill). So, unless they have literally brought a list that has tools designed to kill such a blob. The experienced players will learn to just avoid it. Lets not forget. We need to include the points of all the characters we use to support such a blob (like MOP and/or dark apostle) and the CP we used for any relics or strategems too. That's a ton of investment for a blob that moves 5 inches and takes one objective.

In matchplay, deathguard seems to have better secondaries for that kind of play. Most of the legions will end up with kill secondaries or engage on all fronts, in which case you kind of want more points going up the flanks and not quite such a huge commitment to just the center. The only legion I feel that would want to play this style is World Bearer legion. They got a secondary called Exalt the Dark gods that makes them want to go to the center and perform an action to exalt. Pair that with the psychic secondary warp ritual. And they will settle two of their secondaries just by dominating the center.

But this applies mainly just for world bearers because Exalt the Dark Gods secondary is specific only to world bearers. Let's not forget also. 3 out of 9 of the matchplay strikeforce missions do not have a center objective. So, one third of the time, going with this strategy means you have a massive investment of points sitting in the center on zero objectives... Although, I suppose you could try and string out towards the left or right to cover one objective. (It all depends on how far you can stretch out this blob and the key characters).

Also, I haven't played any of my lists against Tau yet. How would we fare against a Tau gunline I have no idea. Would we have enough assets to weather the shooting and get enough units into combat? Or will we just get shot off the board by their railguns and such ... I suppose Abaddon will be key here since Tau operates in mainly just one phase. But he is only one model and he can't solo the whole Tau army himself.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 03:13:56


Post by: p5freak


 Dr.Duck wrote:
Excuse my lack of practical knowledge but does this new codex have the tools to crack chunky units that either have high armor AOC and or have chronic access to -1D? A lot of our workhorse units only sport -2 AP and are usually D2 which means we lose a lot of value against those modifiers.


You can crack anything with 9D6+18 (average 49.5) warpflamer autohits, with +1 to wound from VOTLW. Against T7, thats 25 wounds at AP-2. If it survives, its seriously hurt. Unless it has a X wound per phase cap. 10 rubrics are the most point efficient unit in the entire codex, with psyker support for 252 points. I wouldnt be surprised seeing 30 of them on tournaments.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 03:25:23


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Until they change it so Warpflamers don't get the bonus from Let the Galaxy Burn...


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 03:27:06


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 p5freak wrote:
 Dr.Duck wrote:
Excuse my lack of practical knowledge but does this new codex have the tools to crack chunky units that either have high armor AOC and or have chronic access to -1D? A lot of our workhorse units only sport -2 AP and are usually D2 which means we lose a lot of value against those modifiers.


You can crack anything with 9D6+18 (average 49.5) warpflamer autohits, with +1 to wound from VOTLW. Against T7, thats 25 wounds at AP-2. If it survives, its seriously hurt. Unless it has a X wound per phase cap. 10 rubrics are the most point efficient unit in the entire codex, with psyker support for 252 points. I wouldnt be surprised seeing 30 of them on tournaments.


And now give them reroll to wound with Abaddon... lol They will melt anything.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 03:44:03


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Until they change it so Warpflamers don't get the bonus from Let the Galaxy Burn...

Almost like they didn't think the codex through very much......
Still waiting for that scathing review LOL


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 05:15:30


Post by: p5freak


EviscerationPlague wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Until they change it so Warpflamers don't get the bonus from Let the Galaxy Burn...

Almost like they didn't think the codex through very much......


Business as usual.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 05:46:52


Post by: EviscerationPlague


Also put together a SUPER rough draft for a list from glancing the codex and Battlescribe to make sure there's no errors. Whelp, let's begin. Since there's no Super Doctrines I don't feel hampered to not stick to one Legion, so I'm going Black Legion Battalion and Red Corsairs Vanguard.

Black Legion Battalion -
HQ:
×1 Worldclaimer
. Warlord
×1 Cypher

Troops:
×10 Cultists
×10 Cultists
×10 Cultists

Fast Attack:
×7 Raptors
. 2 Plasma Guns, 1 Power Fist, Mark of Khorne or Nurgle
×7 Raptors
. 2 Plasma Guns, 1 Power Fist, Mark of Khorne or Nurgle
×7 Raptors
. 2 Plasma Guns, 1 Power Fist, Mark of Khorne or Nurgle

Heavy Support:
×5 Havocs
. 4 Autocannons, Flamer and Chainsword

Red Corsairs Vanguard -
HQ:
×1 Huron
×1 Lord Discordant
. Baleflamer, Mark of Tzeentch
. Gift of Chaos - Gorget of Hate
. Aspiring Lord - Unholy Fortitude

Elites:
×6 Terminators
. 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Power Fist
. 2 Combi-Flamer, 1 Power Fist, 1 Chainfist
. 2 Accursed Weapons
. Combi-Plasma, Trophies - Black Mace
. Mark of Tzeentch or Nurgle
×10 Possessed
. Trophies - Black Rune
×1 Master of Executions
. Gift of Chaos - Ul'o'cca The Black
. Aspiring Lord - Gaze of the Gods

Theme for this list is simple. Cultists, Cypher, and Havocs stay back (along with Huron or Master of Executions depending on what I think would be best to send forward vs keep against deep strikers). Worldclaimer and Raptors, Possessed, Discordant, Terminators, and one (or both) Red Corsairs characters run as quick as possible to get into melee. As I said, it's a SUPER rough draft and I really want to get a Master of Possessions in the list, but definitely no room for that. I originally wanted to try to make the Red Corsairs as the main Battalion, however I couldn't as I didn't actually have enough CORE dudes to go for putting the Cultists there to run the Black Legion as an Outrider. Terrible shame, really. Definitely want some thoughts on this though.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 06:21:23


Post by: Eldenfirefly


EviscerationPlague wrote:
Also put together a SUPER rough draft for a list from glancing the codex and Battlescribe to make sure there's no errors. Whelp, let's begin. Since there's no Super Doctrines I don't feel hampered to not stick to one Legion, so I'm going Black Legion Battalion and Red Corsairs Vanguard.

...

Theme for this list is simple. Cultists, Cypher, and Havocs stay back (along with Huron or Master of Executions depending on what I think would be best to send forward vs keep against deep strikers). Worldclaimer and Raptors, Possessed, Discordant, Terminators, and one (or both) Red Corsairs characters run as quick as possible to get into melee. As I said, it's a SUPER rough draft and I really want to get a Master of Possessions in the list, but definitely no room for that. I originally wanted to try to make the Red Corsairs as the main Battalion, however I couldn't as I didn't actually have enough CORE dudes to go for putting the Cultists there to run the Black Legion as an Outrider. Terrible shame, really. Definitely want some thoughts on this though.


Hmm, interesting list! You can drop the Havocs if you want to add a master of possession. Honestly, I am not sure if one squad of Havocs will accomplish all that much. Satistically, it can't even destroy a Rhino transport. Might as well drop the anti-tank to go full out melee. Just my opinion!


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 07:20:33


Post by: EviscerationPlague


True. However there's only room for 2 HQs in the Red Corsair Vanguard, and Huron seems pretty efficient for the points running with the Terminators. The Havocs were a quick "lemme throw 8 almost autohit Autocannon shots at a unit". Sometimes you don't need to destroy, you just need to degrade.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 07:39:41


Post by: blood reaper


Current idea for an Emperor's Children Chaos Lord is the following. Sublime Duelist Warlord Trait, Slaanesh Daemon Weapon, and Thunderhammer.

This is an average of eight attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, getting additional attacks on 6s, and wounding most targets on 3 at worse. I primarily fight Tau (and a Tau player who uses lots of Battlesuits) so anyway to deal with those is appreciated.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 07:46:16


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 blood reaper wrote:
Current idea for an Emperor's Children Chaos Lord is the following. Sublime Duelist Warlord Trait, Slaanesh Daemon Weapon, and Thunderhammer.

This is an average of eight attacks hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, getting additional attacks on 6s, and wounding most targets on 3 at worse. I primarily fight Tau (and a Tau player who uses lots of Battlesuits) so anyway to deal with those is appreciated.

You wouldn't be able to catch the suits in the first place. Emperors Children have a Warlord trait to increase movement and reroll charges don't they?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 07:46:56


Post by: Curze08


How are people finding legionnaires in games? On paper I still don't see the value for 90 points. And once you start upgrades it seems to be a big point sync while 10 cultists are 50 points. Maybe if they got marks for free?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 09:55:31


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Curze08 wrote:
How are people finding legionnaires in games? On paper I still don't see the value for 90 points. And once you start upgrades it seems to be a big point sync while 10 cultists are 50 points. Maybe if they got marks for free?


I don't really upgrade mine. Keep them cheap. Maybe at most give the aspiring champion a power fist. No matter what I upgrade them with, elite units are going to do better. I might as well spend more points on elites. But on the other hand, it can be argued that we save points if we just do three units of cultists instead of legionaries and put two units of them into strategic reserve. Then the cultists can come in and do RND, and help score engage on all fronts too. Cultists really do die to a stiff breeze though, while legionaires are much more durable.

The problem is when you face an opponent who does have a unit going for your back field. Legionaries can at least put up a decent fight. Cultists will fold to just about anything. The issue is that since our armies tend to skew towards melee, a lot of our units are trying to move up the board to get into melee. This leaves our back field weak and vulnerable to attack.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 10:24:45


Post by: Insularum


Neat vid from Auspex Tactics on wombo combos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pqf9HwVLyE

A lot of it is master of possession stronk, but the terminator repositioning trick is one I hadn't thought of.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 13:11:56


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 xeen wrote:
I think if you want to use chosen the only “advantage” they have over terminators or possessed is they can ride in a rhino. Kind of like the way people use beserkers.


Honestly, dumping 10 of them out a Land Raider could be quite effective and it's certainly going to draw a lot of fire, which has a value all its own.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 13:25:29


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 xeen wrote:
I think if you want to use chosen the only “advantage” they have over terminators or possessed is they can ride in a rhino. Kind of like the way people use beserkers.


Honestly, dumping 10 of them out a Land Raider could be quite effective and it's certainly going to draw a lot of fire, which has a value all its own.

Or you can dump 5 Terminators or 10 Possessed.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 13:40:43


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


EviscerationPlague wrote:
Or you can dump 5 Terminators or 10 Possessed.


For sure, although I'm a bit more comfortable with Terminators marching up field in cover with MoP and/or Apostle support or coming in on deep strike.

Possessed is probably a better choice as a straight beatstick unit, but they aren't core, so they can't get marks or benefit from icons beyond the attrition benefits. Additionally, since they're not core they can't benefit from most Prayers (if any). Core is also one of the reasons I think there's some value in Helbrutes.

Honestly, I don't have a particularly strong opinion either way given my lack of hard performance data, but I could see solid arguments either way.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 13:45:48


Post by: p5freak


Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Curze08 wrote:
How are people finding legionnaires in games? On paper I still don't see the value for 90 points. And once you start upgrades it seems to be a big point sync while 10 cultists are 50 points. Maybe if they got marks for free?


I don't really upgrade mine. Keep them cheap. Maybe at most give the aspiring champion a power fist. No matter what I upgrade them with, elite units are going to do better. I might as well spend more points on elites. But on the other hand, it can be argued that we save points if we just do three units of cultists instead of legionaries and put two units of them into strategic reserve. Then the cultists can come in and do RND, and help score engage on all fronts too. Cultists really do die to a stiff breeze though, while legionaires are much more durable.

The problem is when you face an opponent who does have a unit going for your back field. Legionaries can at least put up a decent fight. Cultists will fold to just about anything. The issue is that since our armies tend to skew towards melee, a lot of our units are trying to move up the board to get into melee. This leaves our back field weak and vulnerable to attack.


I think of legionaries as a T4 W10 obsec psyker unit for 110 pts, or 125 with a mark, which isnt bad. I dont plan any upgrades. Rubrics are far better for 120 points, but they lack obsec.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 14:14:00


Post by: Daedalus81


EightFoldPath wrote:
For anyone who is new to tactica thread's and is confused by the Daedalus posts, he has two character traits:
Off the cuff, confident rules statements which are wrong - e.g. number of combi-flamers in a terminator unit. I'm sure he has admitted in the past he rushes to post things rather than check.
A pathological need to be contrarion and non-orthodox, and to try to find the hidden gem that everyone else has overlooked whether it exists or not - e.g. Chosen, Helbrutes and also see his body of work in the TS thread regarding Scarab Occult. Given how early we are in the release of the codex, experimentation is good and it doesn't drastically hurt to have someone throwing ideas against the wall. But just be mindful that he will avoid talking about the best units in the book.

My current thinking is that Terminators and Possessed both stand out as much more efficient than the other similar options.

I think you can over equip the Terminators though.

My own off the cuff hot take - 10 Cultists are much better than 5 Legionaries by savings you 40 points, so if you have the terminators/bikers/raptors to not take them, you won't.

 p5freak wrote:
Whats so great about the VC ? It can hardly hide, has a big base, and cant move through ruins, spawns can hide, and move through ruins.

It has speed, meaningful shooting and meaningful melee. So very efficient for points, it should probably be 120 not 105. DG's Myphytic Blight Hauler started at 140 and has only just made it to 120 eighteen months later. Although I think you could argue that MBH (and FBD) are both overcosted at 120 compared to the top factions, and maybe they should be 105, not sure on that, we will need to see a lot more games.


Yes, amazingly people make mistakes. You'll have to forgive me as I was in battlescribe and playing with plasma.

My "pathological need to be contrarion" was highlighting the difference as I saw them and my decisions will be couched in what models I have ( which I noted in a previous post that I won't have a ton of terminators for a while ). Is there something wrong with that?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 xeen wrote:
I think if you want to use chosen the only “advantage” they have over terminators or possessed is they can ride in a rhino. Kind of like the way people use beserkers.


I have a mental block to losing W3 models when the transport explodes.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 14:36:28


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yes, amazingly people make mistakes. You'll have to forgive me as I was in battlescribe and playing with plasma.

My "pathological need to be contrarion" was highlighting the difference as I saw them and my decisions will be couched in what models I have ( which I noted in a previous post that I won't have a ton of terminators for a while ). Is there something wrong with that?


You're a bad person who should feel bad. /s

You do white knight a bit, which can be mildly grating at times.

At the same time, I think there's value in exploring less than obvious choices. There is at least value in discussing the possibilities of those options since the WAAC crowd is unlikely to provide any hard data by using them in a competitive environment. Consequently, casual data, conjecture, and theory crafting is all that's available.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 14:42:19


Post by: Daedalus81


EviscerationPlague wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Until they change it so Warpflamers don't get the bonus from Let the Galaxy Burn...

Almost like they didn't think the codex through very much......
Still waiting for that scathing review LOL


I don't think it's as crazy as one might think. There's no infernal master or pyric flux available. They lose their +1 to cast, invulnerable and -1D so in the right situations they're vulnerable. And you won't be forcing through a warp time with cabal.

35 flamer shots at S5 v T5 get 17.5 wounds ( I'm going to ignore that the WFP is lower S )
55 S4 get 18 wounds

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
You do white knight a bit, which can be mildly grating at times.


If I wasn't grating then you guys would get bored more quickly!



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 14:47:30


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think it's as crazy as one might think.
I'm afraid, that I just don't have your confidence in the fools who wrote this book.

I do not believe they thought for a second how Warpflamers would interact with Let The Galaxy Burn. I doubt it even entered their minds when they mercilessly ripped our Cult units out of our book.




Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 14:55:15


Post by: Daedalus81


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't think it's as crazy as one might think.
I'm afraid, that I just don't have your confidence in the fools who wrote this book.

I do not believe they thought for a second how Warpflamers would interact with Let The Galaxy Burn. I doubt it even entered their minds when they mercilessly ripped our Cult units out of our book.


I do think p5 is right in that we'll see lists with gobs of them ( though the book seems to have enough variety that it won't become THE build ) and they're going to be strong in a glass-hammery sort of way.

What will be weird is if they are well and truly busted...how is GW going to balance them when they're pointed and printed separately? By not including the sheet in the book they made it easier, but lost some control. They could strip the +2 from Rubrics, but that could kill them in CSM.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insularum wrote:
Neat vid from Auspex Tactics on wombo combos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pqf9HwVLyE

A lot of it is master of possession stronk, but the terminator repositioning trick is one I hadn't thought of.


In response to his thought about it getting FAQ'd - TS have been doing this for a while so I expect it sticks around.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 15:06:41


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 p5freak wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Curze08 wrote:
How are people finding legionnaires in games? On paper I still don't see the value for 90 points. And once you start upgrades it seems to be a big point sync while 10 cultists are 50 points. Maybe if they got marks for free?


I don't really upgrade mine. Keep them cheap. Maybe at most give the aspiring champion a power fist. No matter what I upgrade them with, elite units are going to do better. I might as well spend more points on elites. But on the other hand, it can be argued that we save points if we just do three units of cultists instead of legionaries and put two units of them into strategic reserve. Then the cultists can come in and do RND, and help score engage on all fronts too. Cultists really do die to a stiff breeze though, while legionaires are much more durable.

The problem is when you face an opponent who does have a unit going for your back field. Legionaries can at least put up a decent fight. Cultists will fold to just about anything. The issue is that since our armies tend to skew towards melee, a lot of our units are trying to move up the board to get into melee. This leaves our back field weak and vulnerable to attack.


I think of legionaries as a T4 W10 obsec psyker unit for 110 pts, or 125 with a mark, which isnt bad. I dont plan any upgrades. Rubrics are far better for 120 points, but they lack obsec.

You don't need Objective Secured if your opponent's units are dead. That's why I think Red Corsairs are vastly being overlooked in terms of even just killing the opponent's Objective Secured models and being able to outhold them.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 16:36:03


Post by: p5freak


I know i dont need obsec, but its nice to have. Even without LTGB and without warpflamers rubrics are still a good choice.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 16:51:59


Post by: whembly


 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Until they change it so Warpflamers don't get the bonus from Let the Galaxy Burn...

Almost like they didn't think the codex through very much......
Still waiting for that scathing review LOL


I don't think it's as crazy as one might think. There's no infernal master or pyric flux available. They lose their +1 to cast, invulnerable and -1D so in the right situations they're vulnerable. And you won't be forcing through a warp time with cabal.

35 flamer shots at S5 v T5 get 17.5 wounds ( I'm going to ignore that the WFP is lower S )
55 S4 get 18 wounds



Pretty sure Rubics keeps their All is Dust rule (the -1 AP for 1D). But, yeah they lose their +1 to cast and invulnerable due to being locked into the TS legion.

Still, not a bad unit in a CSM list and with the ICON, even the regular bolters/cannon has some play too, along with their flamers.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 16:55:06


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 whembly wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Until they change it so Warpflamers don't get the bonus from Let the Galaxy Burn...

Almost like they didn't think the codex through very much......
Still waiting for that scathing review LOL


I don't think it's as crazy as one might think. There's no infernal master or pyric flux available. They lose their +1 to cast, invulnerable and -1D so in the right situations they're vulnerable. And you won't be forcing through a warp time with cabal.

35 flamer shots at S5 v T5 get 17.5 wounds ( I'm going to ignore that the WFP is lower S )
55 S4 get 18 wounds



Pretty sure Rubics keeps their All is Dust rule (the -1 AP for 1D). But, yeah they lose their +1 to cast and invulnerable due to being locked into the TS legion.

Still, not a bad unit in a CSM list and with the ICON, even the regular bolters/cannon has some play too, along with their flamers.

I don't think the 5++ is a big deal due to AoC existing. You'd only get it against some random AP-4 weapon shooting at your Rubrics, and at minimum the MoT rules of gonna save at least one of them from Plasma.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 16:56:22


Post by: p5freak


 whembly wrote:

Still, not a bad unit in a CSM list and with the ICON, even the regular bolters/cannon has some play too, along with their flamers.


Rubrics dont get ICON.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 17:12:14


Post by: Daedalus81


 whembly wrote:

Pretty sure Rubics keeps their All is Dust rule (the -1 AP for 1D). But, yeah they lose their +1 to cast and invulnerable due to being locked into the TS legion.

Still, not a bad unit in a CSM list and with the ICON, even the regular bolters/cannon has some play too, along with their flamers.


It's not the All is Dust rule itself, but losing the capacity to reduce D2 down to D1 to allow AiD to trigger.

A disintegrator Ravager would pop two CSM Rubrics in cover as opposed to doing a single wound against TS Rubrics -- so effectively quadruple the damage.

Will people take lots of D2 to make that relevant? I'm not sure.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 17:28:58


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 p5freak wrote:
 whembly wrote:

Still, not a bad unit in a CSM list and with the ICON, even the regular bolters/cannon has some play too, along with their flamers.


Rubrics dont get ICON.

Not yet, anyway. I think it's important to anticipate the errata/FAQ coming up might give it to be consistent with Berserker Marines and Noise Marines.

With that said, GW is anything but consistent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 whembly wrote:

Pretty sure Rubics keeps their All is Dust rule (the -1 AP for 1D). But, yeah they lose their +1 to cast and invulnerable due to being locked into the TS legion.

Still, not a bad unit in a CSM list and with the ICON, even the regular bolters/cannon has some play too, along with their flamers.


It's not the All is Dust rule itself, but losing the capacity to reduce D2 down to D1 to allow AiD to trigger.

A disintegrator Ravager would pop two CSM Rubrics in cover as opposed to doing a single wound against TS Rubrics -- so effectively quadruple the damage.

Will people take lots of D2 to make that relevant? I'm not sure.

Nobody was going to pop that Strat on anything but Scarabs though. To say they lost access to it doesn't mean anything because it wasn't being used on Rubric Marines anyway.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 17:38:03


Post by: xeen


I think that a good way to use rubrics might just be a small squad of 5 man to harass. That is 4d6+8 flamer shots with -2 and then another 3d6+2 shots from the pistol, albeit at S3. That is only 132 points for a unit that can do significant damage to a lot of units in this game. They can also warptime themselves as they don't want to charge and can advance and shoot, making their threat range like 12+d6 for move advance move, and then 12 inch range. Put that right at the enemy line turn 1 and they have to try to do something to it, perhaps absorbing shots that would go into more important units.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 18:08:08


Post by: Daedalus81


EviscerationPlague wrote:
Nobody was going to pop that Strat on anything but Scarabs though. To say they lost access to it doesn't mean anything because it wasn't being used on Rubric Marines anyway.


Fair point - though with the reduced cost on flamers I think you'll see it happen more as people trickle into Rubrics.

And I should correct my statement - MoT would block one of those so CSM Rubrics would only take twice the damage, but...that relies on no preparatory small arms or follow up shooting.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 18:15:09


Post by: l0k1


So played a 50PL game yesterday against my buddy's Sisters. Neither of us have the Nephlim book so we still used Nachmund. We did the very first incursion mission. I ran Word Bearers and used their specific secondary, Grind them down, Engage on all fronts.

My list
Diso lord
-Flames of Spite
-Intoxicating Elixir
-MoS
MoP
-Mast of the Union
-Liber Hereticus
-MoS
-Cursed Earth, Pact of Flesh, Delightful Agonies
5 legionaries
-Lascanonn
10 Cultists
5 Possessed
5 Warp Talons
1 Venomcrawler
1 Obliterator

His
Palentine
Cannoness
3 Nundams
2 squads of battle sisters
5 Sacresants
5 Retributors
1 Penitent Engine
2 Rhinos

He pulled ahead early on primary but by 3rd turn he only had 2 rhinos and 2 squads of girls left. I had my Venomcrawler, MoP, Disco Lord, 4 marines, and 10 cultists. Being honest I told him what Pact of Flesh did and he was able to deny it everytime. If I was playing against anyone else I would've used the strat to auto pass, make it undeniable, and eaten the mortal. Disco Lord with WB trait, Flames of Spite, and MoS is gross. I didn't pop the Elixir so I think next time I'd give the daemon weapon. The doctrines really didn't come into play or really matter much. Disco lord's baleflamer 1 shot his Penitent engine on turn 1 so that was nice. If my list seems like a mish mash, it's because I just wanted to try a bunch of things to see how they did. Disco Lord did a lot of heavy lifting eating the Penitent Engine, squad of nundams, some sacresants, Palentine, and cannoness. MoP casting 3 powers was great. Possessed having 3 wounds makes it tough to chew through. Warp Talons turned the retributors to a fine mist, but didn't do much else.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 18:15:09


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Nobody was going to pop that Strat on anything but Scarabs though. To say they lost access to it doesn't mean anything because it wasn't being used on Rubric Marines anyway.


Fair point - though with the reduced cost on flamers I think you'll see it happen more as people trickle into Rubrics.

And I should correct my statement - MoT would block one of those so CSM Rubrics would only take twice the damage, but...that relies on no preparatory small arms or follow up shooting.

Those small arms would be more wasted on them than say Possessed. Fair trade overall.

Also even with Warpflame Rubrics existing, Thousand Sons players ARE going to take Scarabs. That's just how it works.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 18:24:20


Post by: Daedalus81


EviscerationPlague wrote:
Also even with Warpflame Rubrics existing, Thousand Sons players ARE going to take Scarabs. That's just how it works.


No doubt. It just becomes harder to squeeze the CP.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 18:46:10


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
Also even with Warpflame Rubrics existing, Thousand Sons players ARE going to take Scarabs. That's just how it works.


No doubt. It just becomes harder to squeeze the CP.

Depends. I know that even hard-core "I wanna be Ina tournament" players in my area don't like Nephilim so it seems not a lot of people bought it.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 19:53:32


Post by: Daedalus81


EviscerationPlague wrote:
Depends. I know that even hard-core "I wanna be Ina tournament" players in my area don't like Nephilim so it seems not a lot of people bought it.


That's too bad. I'm having a hard time finding a copy that isn't direct from GW. Nothing on eBay and everyone else is sold out.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 20:25:56


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Daedalus81 wrote:
They could strip the +2 from Rubrics, but that could kill them in CSM.
That's exactly what they'll do.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 22:30:40


Post by: Daedalus81


I just noticed that the KLoS and Crown have WARP FOCUS as a keyword, but it looks like nothing in the book references that keyword?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 22:41:00


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Most playtested rules ever...




Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 22:57:00


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I just noticed that the KLoS and Crown have WARP FOCUS as a keyword, but it looks like nothing in the book references that keyword?

LOCUS, not "FOCUS". MoP has it as well. $5 says it's related to Summoning and we'll find out what it does in the Daemons codex.

Another $5 says it won't be remotely as cool as a Legion Esoterist. Anybody remember Daemon Bombs? Pepperidge Farms remembers, and so do the HH writers.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 23:04:39


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I just noticed that the KLoS and Crown have WARP FOCUS as a keyword, but it looks like nothing in the book references that keyword?


You are right. lol I haven't been able to find anything in the rulebook that uses this keyword.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I just noticed that the KLoS and Crown have WARP FOCUS as a keyword, but it looks like nothing in the book references that keyword?

LOCUS, not "FOCUS". MoP has it as well. $5 says it's related to Summoning and we'll find out what it does in the Daemons codex.

Another $5 says it won't be remotely as cool as a Legion Esoterist. Anybody remember Daemon Bombs? Pepperidge Farms remembers, and so do the HH writers.


If its related to summoning it would be wild because its on only the MOP, LOS and Nortilith crown. So, nobody else has it. And between those three, one is a huge lord of war, another is a static fortification and the third is an infantry character. You couldn't find three other different models if you tried. But maybe they give +1 to summoning in an aura around them. And that would be thematic. Because Nortilith crown is often used in rituals and LOS is worshipped by Khorne fanatics, and MOP is MOP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 l0k1 wrote:
So played a 50PL game yesterday against my buddy's Sisters. Neither of us have the Nephlim book so we still used Nachmund. We did the very first incursion mission. I ran Word Bearers and used their specific secondary, Grind them down, Engage on all fronts.

... Warp Talons turned the retributors to a fine mist, but didn't do much else.


So, How did the 1 obliterator do? I assume you deep struck it down ?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/11 23:32:14


Post by: l0k1


I didn't deep strike him like I should've, but it was a fun game so not mad. I was hoping for 1st turn and figured if I didn't get it, he was still in cover with AoC and a 2+. If he was still alive I could Pact of Flesh to heal him. He died before I got to do anything with him, but he ate almost all of my buddy's 1st shooting phase. It sucks, but better to lose 1 Obliterator than say my Disco Lord. Using Hexagrammatic Ward on a multi melta shot put a grin on my face and gave my buddy a big sad.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 03:25:47


Post by: p5freak


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
They could strip the +2 from Rubrics, but that could kill them in CSM.
That's exactly what they'll do.


Even without that, they are still far better than bare naked legionaries. They have all is dust, AP-2 bolters for pretty much the same cost.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 03:55:13


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 p5freak wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
They could strip the +2 from Rubrics, but that could kill them in CSM.
That's exactly what they'll do.


Even without that, they are still far better than bare naked legionaries. They have all is dust, AP-2 bolters for pretty much the same cost.

And the Psyker is sorta built in too.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 04:26:26


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Yeah, that's why I try and keep my legionaires cheap and with min 5 man squads. They are just there for obsec and for some secondaries. Just about every other elite infantry choice we have will trump legionaires. its not even going to be close.

If you don't care for the obsec:

110 points of legionaires is always going to be worse than 110 points of Berserkers.

120 points of legionaires are so much worse than 120 points of plague marines that its laughable, same for rubric marines

125 points of legionaries are much worse than 125 points of Chosen.

140 points of legionaires are much worse than 140 points of Possessed.

And if you are bringing noise marines, then you are playing emperor's children and they are obsec, so why are you even bringing legionaires...

And this is just power armor to power armour comparision. Once you bring in terminators into the picture. Well, the two are so different we might as well not compare. Terminators have deep strike, they have 3W, 2+ armor save, 5++ invul. Their accursed weapons hits at AP3 with +1 attack. Etc etc.

Now, I do care about obsec. But I don't want to overpay for obsec.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 04:33:27


Post by: p5freak


 Daedalus81 wrote:
I just noticed that the KLoS and Crown have WARP FOCUS as a keyword, but it looks like nothing in the book references that keyword?


Most likely this is going to be used in the new Daemon Codex.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 04:47:00


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Just watched this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sh4M_84G0c&ab_channel=MWGStudios

The LR did so well. It survived the whole game and took down at least 2 or 3 raiders? That was so good! And that big cultist squad buffed with the Dark Apostle Illusionary supplication is soooo tanky. Was hit with so many drukhari and survived with 1 cultist leader left alive on the point. Skari said that 210 points bogged down at least a quarter of his entire army. lol

But I still think the best Dark Apostles are world bearers though. Every other legion only has 1 prayer on theirs. Somehow, spending 95 points for one character to do just one prayer is just ... steep.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 07:33:53


Post by: Curze08


In regard to Legionnaires do you think if they made marks + icon free for them in battleforged armies they might be enough value to be more likely to include in your army?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 12:18:59


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Curze08 wrote:
In regard to Legionnaires do you think if they made marks + icon free for them in battleforged armies they might be enough value to be more likely to include in your army?


I guess so. Actually, I am playing with legionaries for my obsec at this point anyway. I love legionaries because they are literally the poster boys for our codex chaos space marines. Its just that I tend to run them as cheap as possible, with possibly just a power fist on champion. They are far more survivable to shooting and combat than 10 cultists.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 13:29:12


Post by: Curze08


I guess so. Actually, I am playing with legionaries for my obsec at this point anyway. I love legionaries because they are literally the poster boys for our codex chaos space marines. Its just that I tend to run them as cheap as possible, with possibly just a power fist on champion. They are far more survivable to shooting and combat than 10 cultists.


Ok, but 5 marines with a power fist...whats that...100 points? Does that unit put in more work than 20 cultists? Which is also 2 units that can be in different places on the board and also contribute to 2/3 of the troop tax for Battalion. I guess it could also be dependant on Legion traits. I run Night Lords so not sure I see one 5 man Legionnaire squad doing much more than 2 squads of cultist. Main issue for me is cultists are not very fluffy for Night Lords, but they just seem like a more efficient use of points that allows me spend up bigger on juicier elites and fast attack. Its sad though because I want regular CSM to be worth taking :(


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 13:37:30


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Some people just like Chaos Space Marines. Some people don't want Cultists in their army. What's wrong with that?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 13:41:55


Post by: Curze08


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Some people just like Chaos Space Marines. Some people don't want Cultists in their army. What's wrong with that?


Nothing at all, I get it. I'm still undecided myself. Just struggling with the efficiency side of it. Maybe I need to look for some math hammer for cultists vs CSM against space marine shooting. If cultists get wiped and Legionnaires stick around then I think that would help me decide.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 13:49:36


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Or not everything has to be reduced to mathammer and efficiencies.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 14:02:48


Post by: Curze08


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Or not everything has to be reduced to mathammer and efficiencies.


Fair enough...but this is a tactica thread right? Not a nostalgia or fluff thread. So I would have thought that efficient use of points and the general strengths and weaknesses of certain units is a reasonable discussion.

But maybe I'm wrong.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 14:16:17


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


I played a couple of games this weekend with my Black Legion, featuring Abaddon.

My first game was a GT style game vs. Ultramarines. I don't have Berserkers, Possessed or anything like that, but I had a squad of 10 chainsword Khorne marked/iconed Legionaries that was supposed to be a meat shield for Abaddon, but after completely overkilling a squad of 5 Incursors after turning them into Red Corsairs, they sat on an objective to be whittled a way by battlesuit and Redemptor secondary weapons. I will say that the Confluence of Traitors strat is probably an every game strat for the Black Legion.

Abaddon didn't do anything all game long. I suggested to my opponent to disallow easy charges for as long as possible. Which they did as they castled up in their deployment zone table quarter until the Warmaster absolutely was going to make it into melee. Where Tigerius cast smite doing 3 damage, 3 damage was done in Shooting and Guilliman finished him off in melee making a charge due to the new way Ruins change engagement range. Even though no wall or barrier was between Abaddon and Guilliman. I just had to move Abaddon into a ruin to get him within charge range and the walls were behind the Warmaster as the ruin was Ultramarine terrain they retreated from to prevent an easy charge.

The last thing I want to mention is for that first game, I had 10 Terminators (with the Black Rune) backed up with a MoP and Dark Apostle who put a bunch of defensive buffs Turn 1 to allow them to face tank my loyalist shooting on the center objective. I think the Terminators did okay, but I still lost 6 of them to main weapons of battlesuits/Redemptors and Eradictators. Basically, a lot of 5++ saves I wasn't making. Afterward, I was trying Psychic Action instead of more spells which allowed the Ultramarines to take away Look Out, Sir killing the Dark Apostile and putting the MoP to 1 Wound.

I dominated the Primaries most of the game, holding 3 of 5 most of the game and 4 of the 5 I turn (I forget what the actual mission was). It was my secondaries that lost me the game. I took Despoiling Dominions, Grind Them Down and Psychic Interrogation. I feel the Black Legion secondary was kinda a waste. Grind Them Down was tough since my army was slow and melee focused and my opponent practically never left their deployment zone other than with Infiltrating units. And Psychic Interrogation stripped too much power from my army while also largely being blocked by a Tigerius's superior ability. I lost, but I did manage to hold the game to within 10points. Which I think is pretty good considering I don't usually play anything but Open War and Tempest games, and never GT games. Plus, I am far from figuring it out Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

The second game versus a Salamander army, Abaddon killed 3 Aggressors, 2 Blade Guard Vets, Primaris Lt, Primaris Chapter Master and 9-10 Assault Intercessors. So I did at least get a chance to actually do something with him this weekend.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 17:09:27


Post by: LeRufus


Which LandRaider do you guys prefer? Vanilla or another Variant?


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 17:17:51


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Or not everything has to be reduced to mathammer and efficiencies.

No, but until GW fixes how they can buy equipment I'd rather just have the bare minimum cultists.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 18:22:53


Post by: Daedalus81


 Curze08 wrote:
I guess so. Actually, I am playing with legionaries for my obsec at this point anyway. I love legionaries because they are literally the poster boys for our codex chaos space marines. Its just that I tend to run them as cheap as possible, with possibly just a power fist on champion. They are far more survivable to shooting and combat than 10 cultists.


Ok, but 5 marines with a power fist...whats that...100 points? Does that unit put in more work than 20 cultists? Which is also 2 units that can be in different places on the board and also contribute to 2/3 of the troop tax for Battalion. I guess it could also be dependant on Legion traits. I run Night Lords so not sure I see one 5 man Legionnaire squad doing much more than 2 squads of cultist. Main issue for me is cultists are not very fluffy for Night Lords, but they just seem like a more efficient use of points that allows me spend up bigger on juicier elites and fast attack. Its sad though because I want regular CSM to be worth taking :(


Unless you invest in them cultists die pretty hard. I do find the idea of regenerating LD10+ cultists pretty amusing though.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 20:24:19


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Curze08 wrote:
Fair enough...but this is a tactica thread right? Not a nostalgia or fluff thread.
It's also not the tournament sub-forum. Not everything is either/or.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 20:26:48


Post by: EightFoldPath


Re LeRufus' question:
There is an issue currently with all the forge world units including the land raiders. They don't have TRAITORIS ASTARTES as a keyword which is required to build a Chaos Space Marines detachment, see page 76.

That being said, we are of course expecting them to be FAQd back to functionality and in friendly games you can assume the keyword is there. But probably best to assume they don't have the <MARK>s too.

However, given that their feeble arms will be tired after typing TRAITORIS ASTARTES so many times, I suspect the FAQ writer will not be able to muster the energy to give T9 to the FW land raiders, therefore I would say the vanilla land raider will remain the most interesting.

Assuming they ever do add the Kratos to CSM, I probably still prefer the land raider with its cheaper price, T9 and solid anti tank load out.

I'm not sure the land raider is going to be seen at the deep end of tournament play. Although there is a distinct lack of good anti tank options in CSM, so something will end up being the best option.

I think all the FW vehicles with D3+ melee weapons are worth a close look too, as most of them are getting a Legion trait for the first time, and there are some very good melee traits around. Could a M10+6 Red Corsair Blood Slaughterer be worth 140 points?

Evisceration Plague, I saw you post a list a few pages back with two <LEGION>s in it. That isn't a tournament legal army in Nachmund or Nephilim. You've got to take a single LEGION (with some limited exceptions).


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/12 20:57:27


Post by: EviscerationPlague


Nobody I know plays Nephilim (because it's hot garbage) but I'll have to look at the Nachmund rules again before I play. If you're indeed correct, that definitely blows.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 04:54:34


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Wow, I love chaos bikers now. A big unit of 9 can easily be our go to for shooting. Especially if we use Abaddon to give them reroll all hits and all wounds. One daemon shell strategem makes them AP2 with tzeentch and now their range is also 30 inches plus they already move 14".

Look at the math. Even against a T7, 3+ vehicle, 36 shots with exploding 6s and full rerolls will do 41 hits and rerolling wounds would give us 22.8 wounds after which 15.2 wounds would penetrate the tank's saves. That's more or less one dead tank... using bolters! And its a dead dreadnaught too because bolters don't care about their -1 damage. It would blow any plane I can think of to bits and pieces.

Suddenly, I am asking myself why I even need to run anti-tank if I have this unit that can already do that so well.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 05:07:52


Post by: xeen


As to the 10 cultists v 5 Legionaries discussion, I have been playing two squads of ten cultists, and one squad of 5 legionaries. I could bring another squad of 10 cultists if I wanted. I like having at least one 5 man legionary squad. I usually have a daemon blade for some extra punch on the legionary squad since I use them as my mid-objective holders. And I had a few extra points so I gave them a plasma gun, pistol. So 115 v. 55 (I put the heavy stubber on the cultist against because of how the points were allocated). I have been playing with the 6 CP in all games, so I don't think paying 3 for a vanguard is really feasible.

I have noticed that ten cultists can only do three things really, screen for deep-strike, hide behind LOS blocking terrain and hold a back objective and do a backfield action. Ten of them, even with the heavy stubber, do no damage to basically everything in the game. I think since the start of 8th my cultist units might have killed like 4 models total over the 20+ games I used them. They also die so easily if targeted by basically anything in the game. As such you can't really count on moving them up the field because they are going to die and not make it anywhere, and then probably give up secondary points for like grind etc.

The 5 man Legionary squad, while clearly not as good as any of the elite units, has done solid work for me. They can't just be easily removed with junk shooting (like a 5 marine troop squad, character shooting, or light shots like lasguns) so your opponent has to either shoot them with something that can hurt them (thus not shooting the terminators, possessed, etc.) or ignore them which is cool cause they are obsec and probably sitting on an objective. Also I found that the 20 or so points I put into them to make them a bit more punchy did allow them to meaningfully contribute to hurting the enemy (in my last game they killed 3 death company in CC and then plasma death a few more marines there after). Personally, if I wanted to be really efficient, I would bring 5 with a chain cannon only. that would be 105 points. Put in 20 more for Mark of Tzeentch and an Icon to make the chain cannon -2 ap and I think that unit would provide 125 points worth of value.

I don't think efficiency wise I would take more than 1 Legionary unit (as filling two mandatory troop spots for only 100 points with cultists is the way to go) but I think there is a case for one unit.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 05:25:46


Post by: EviscerationPlague


But it isn't JUST 10 Cultists vs 5 Legionaires. It's really 20 Cultists vs 5 Legionaires.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 06:13:19


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 xeen wrote:
As to the 10 cultists v 5 Legionaries discussion, I have been playing two squads of ten cultists, and one squad of 5 legionaries. I could bring another squad of 10 cultists if I wanted. I like having at least one 5 man legionary squad. I usually have a daemon blade for some extra punch on the legionary squad since I use them as my mid-objective holders. And I had a few extra points so I gave them a plasma gun, pistol. So 115 v. 55 (I put the heavy stubber on the cultist against because of how the points were allocated). I have been playing with the 6 CP in all games, so I don't think paying 3 for a vanguard is really feasible.

I have noticed that ten cultists can only do three things really, screen for deep-strike, hide behind LOS blocking terrain and hold a back objective and do a backfield action. Ten of them, even with the heavy stubber, do no damage to basically everything in the game. I think since the start of 8th my cultist units might have killed like 4 models total over the 20+ games I used them. They also die so easily if targeted by basically anything in the game. As such you can't really count on moving them up the field because they are going to die and not make it anywhere, and then probably give up secondary points for like grind etc.

The 5 man Legionary squad, while clearly not as good as any of the elite units, has done solid work for me. They can't just be easily removed with junk shooting (like a 5 marine troop squad, character shooting, or light shots like lasguns) so your opponent has to either shoot them with something that can hurt them (thus not shooting the terminators, possessed, etc.) or ignore them which is cool cause they are obsec and probably sitting on an objective. Also I found that the 20 or so points I put into them to make them a bit more punchy did allow them to meaningfully contribute to hurting the enemy (in my last game they killed 3 death company in CC and then plasma death a few more marines there after). Personally, if I wanted to be really efficient, I would bring 5 with a chain cannon only. that would be 105 points. Put in 20 more for Mark of Tzeentch and an Icon to make the chain cannon -2 ap and I think that unit would provide 125 points worth of value.

I don't think efficiency wise I would take more than 1 Legionary unit (as filling two mandatory troop spots for only 100 points with cultists is the way to go) but I think there is a case for one unit.


I agree with your observations. Many of the matchplay maps only have one backfield objective. Theoratically, you only need one cultist squad there. But I think two is ok as well, because you want to do secondary objectives that require actions. Be it RND, or For the Dark Gods. You even want to keep those two cultist squads in each of your back quarter in case you are doing engage on all fronts. The issue is when you want to perform actions upfield. RND can be done upfield by cultists coming in from reserve (provided they don't get screened out). But you do spend 1 CP to put them in reserve. But For the Dark Gods is in the center of the quarter so you can't just come in from a board edge and do it.

Also if you are trying to take the center or any upfield objective. Having a legionaire squad with you gives you obsec when you are trying to overwhelm that objective. Its not a small thing. Because lets say you take over an objective with an elite unit and a legionaire unit. Now your opponent needs to consider. Kill the legionaire unit with obsec, the elite unit will counter attack. Kill the elite unit, you are still on the point with obsec. And legionaire units are best in this kind of battles which require durability and fighting. A squad of Cultists won't last at all in the same situation unless we buff them to the sky in other ways (like with a Dark apostle and Black Ruin of Damnation).


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 07:11:09


Post by: Curze08


Anyone have any experience with 75 point Accursed Cultist squad in games? They seem like they'd be a little more durable with the Torments compared to Cultist Mobs and they regenerate wounds.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 07:22:04


Post by: Dr.Duck


Eldenfirefly wrote:
Wow, I love chaos bikers now. A big unit of 9 can easily be our go to for shooting. Especially if we use Abaddon to give them reroll all hits and all wounds. One daemon shell strategem makes them AP2 with tzeentch and now their range is also 30 inches plus they already move 14".

Look at the math. Even against a T7, 3+ vehicle, 36 shots with exploding 6s and full rerolls will do 41 hits and rerolling wounds would give us 22.8 wounds after which 15.2 wounds would penetrate the tank's saves. That's more or less one dead tank... using bolters! And its a dead dreadnaught too because bolters don't care about their -1 damage. It would blow any plane I can think of to bits and pieces.

Suddenly, I am asking myself why I even need to run anti-tank if I have this unit that can already do that so well.


Ive been kinda wondering this. Been thinking in the line of running khorne with all those chainsword attacks at -2. But tzeench seems the ticket for sure. Does the -2 work on the plas you can take too?

Wish I didnt sell al my bikes


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 09:06:49


Post by: locarno24


A khorne legion squad hits like a brick! On the charge, each model puts out 4 S5 AP-2 attacks - not far short of power sword stats with a number of attacks matching most army's elites.

Throw in something like Word Bearers for baked in full rerolls and you can get a lot of fighting power with minimal support needed.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 10:43:28


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Dr.Duck wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Wow, I love chaos bikers now.

Suddenly, I am asking myself why I even need to run anti-tank if I have this unit that can already do that so well.


Ive been kinda wondering this. Been thinking in the line of running khorne with all those chainsword attacks at -2. But tzeench seems the ticket for sure. Does the -2 work on the plas you can take too?

Wish I didnt sell al my bikes


The Tzeentch Icon will improve AP by 1 for all shooting. So yes, your plasma gun will get AP4. But the Strategem daemon shell only applies to bolt weapons.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 11:10:40


Post by: Dr.Duck


Any1 know why I’m getting a error when trying to include a second cultist unit in my list? It’s telling me limit 1. Wat


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 11:12:37


Post by: Curze08


 Dr.Duck wrote:
Any1 know why I’m getting a error when trying to include a second cultist unit in my list? It’s telling me limit 1. Wat


You cannot have more cultists units than core units. So do your core units first then try to add cultists.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 14:18:15


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Curze08 wrote:
 Dr.Duck wrote:
Any1 know why I’m getting a error when trying to include a second cultist unit in my list? It’s telling me limit 1. Wat


You cannot have more cultists units than core units. So do your core units first then try to add cultists.

I think it's specifically CORE infantry too.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 20:21:00


Post by: LeRufus


EightFoldPath wrote:
Re LeRufus' question:
There is an issue currently with all the forge world units including the land raiders. They don't have TRAITORIS ASTARTES as a keyword which is required to build a Chaos Space Marines detachment, see page 76.



I am a bit confused, in my Codex (German) there is no Unit with that Keyword, only Faction Word TRAITORIS ASTARTES...
Seems a bit messy ^^'


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 21:25:07


Post by: EightFoldPath


Sorry you are right it is a faction keyword (not just a keyword). The units in the CSM codex do have it, but none of the forge world units in the forge world book have it yet.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 21:32:54


Post by: locarno24


EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Curze08 wrote:
 Dr.Duck wrote:
Any1 know why I’m getting a error when trying to include a second cultist unit in my list? It’s telling me limit 1. Wat


You cannot have more cultists units than core units. So do your core units first then try to add cultists.

I think it's specifically CORE infantry too.


It is. Its quite annoying as it makes doing a traitor guard esque army really hard. Which is odd given the new troop and hq cultist choices.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 21:38:35


Post by: EviscerationPlague


locarno24 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Curze08 wrote:
 Dr.Duck wrote:
Any1 know why I’m getting a error when trying to include a second cultist unit in my list? It’s telling me limit 1. Wat


You cannot have more cultists units than core units. So do your core units first then try to add cultists.

I think it's specifically CORE infantry too.


It is. Its quite annoying as it makes doing a traitor guard esque army really hard. Which is odd given the new troop and hq cultist choices.

It sucks too, since that would've helped me tons building the first list I did here.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/13 23:21:23


Post by: Dr.Duck


EviscerationPlague wrote:
locarno24 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Curze08 wrote:
 Dr.Duck wrote:
Any1 know why I’m getting a error when trying to include a second cultist unit in my list? It’s telling me limit 1. Wat


You cannot have more cultists units than core units. So do your core units first then try to add cultists.

I think it's specifically CORE infantry too.


It is. Its quite annoying as it makes doing a traitor guard esque army really hard. Which is odd given the new troop and hq cultist choices.

It sucks too, since that would've helped me tons building the first list I did here.


Only thing I can think of is add some heavy armor plates to Heavy weapon teams and proxy them as Havocs. That gets you 3 cultist squads.

Really hating how competitive our hq slot is. I always wanna fit 1-2 more characters after I pick 3.

Really want to fit a Dank Apostle in most lists, but just can’t find room. Additionally bro priests can be made insanely beefy with all the buffs you can give Exalted possession, Omen of potency, diabolic strength and Eightfold-cursed crozius. 11 attacks at S9 but auto wounding against anything not vehicle, -4 AP and 3D. Hes not super useful but you can swap out the crozius relic for Epistle of Lorgar which allows for 1 more prayer.

What kinda blows bout the apostle is there really isnt any ways to get them to know or chant another buff outside of WB and even so most of the chants dont stand out above the psychic powers. Additionally the chant that he has to take is super redundant in WB. However giving him MoS gives him otherwise free access to a advance and charge chant which ,might be needed for things like terms, Abaddon etc.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/14 00:52:31


Post by: Eldenfirefly


 Dr.Duck wrote:


Really hating how competitive our hq slot is. I always wanna fit 1-2 more characters after I pick 3.

What kinda blows bout the apostle is there really isnt any ways to get them to know or chant another buff outside of WB and even so most of the chants dont stand out above the psychic powers. Additionally the chant that he has to take is super redundant in WB. However giving him MoS gives him otherwise free access to a advance and charge chant which ,might be needed for things like terms, Abaddon etc.



Hmm.. well, you could put Abaddon in a supreme command detachment, and then you will have 3 HQ slots in your batallion for characters. If you want a fighty character, master of executions for 65 points in an elite slot is great too. The issue is more that if you spend so many points on characters, you will have a much smaller army than your opponent. Your characters are going to need to do a lot of heavy lifting.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/14 01:15:08


Post by: Dr.Duck


Eldenfirefly wrote:
 Dr.Duck wrote:


Really hating how competitive our hq slot is. I always wanna fit 1-2 more characters after I pick 3.

What kinda blows bout the apostle is there really isnt any ways to get them to know or chant another buff outside of WB and even so most of the chants dont stand out above the psychic powers. Additionally the chant that he has to take is super redundant in WB. However giving him MoS gives him otherwise free access to a advance and charge chant which ,might be needed for things like terms, Abaddon etc.



Hmm.. well, you could put Abaddon in a supreme command detachment, and then you will have 3 HQ slots in your batallion for characters. If you want a fighty character, master of executions for 65 points in an elite slot is great too. The issue is more that if you spend so many points on characters, you will have a much smaller army than your opponent. Your characters are going to need to do a lot of heavy lifting.


I dont find it too difficult for many of the characters to earn their points back. The better options are either reasonably priced and have significant support potential [atleast in the right legion] (MoP, DarkA, Sorc) or are reasonably priced and have some pretty hefty damage potential (Disco, MoE) or are pretty pricey but do both (Abaddon, DP I guess to a lesser extent but im not really feeling this guy atm.)

Current list is running a Disco and a MoP and im debating between another MoP or Apostle.

Good call on the supcom, didnt consider that.



Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/14 03:44:07


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Well, don't forget your secondaries also. You really don't want to bring only one psyker and end up not being able to take any psychic secondaries because the MOP psychics are too useful to waste on doing a psychic action.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/14 04:18:35


Post by: xeen


 Curze08 wrote:
Anyone have any experience with 75 point Accursed Cultist squad in games? They seem like they'd be a little more durable with the Torments compared to Cultist Mobs and they regenerate wounds.


I did not realize they were troops. That makes them more interesting indeed. Especially if you want to use the cultist buffs.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/14 07:33:54


Post by: locarno24


Yeah. They give up their guns, but if you were relying on 10 autoguns to....uh.....anything, you're kinda doing it wrong.

In return, they offer wounds at basically the same cost as regular cultists - 75pts for 14 wounds instead of 50 for 10.

In return you get T4 and a 6+ ignore wounds roll, making them nearly twice as tough to bolter fire and still just as able to benefit from to-hit penalties and save bonuses from cover, and with a mix of 1w and 3w models you can play damage allocation games to ensure it does take 14 wounding hits to wipe them out. Add in objective secured, free model regeneration every turn and the fact that torments are at least not awful in melee and if you want a sub 100 point unit to run to an objective then sit there and defend it and they're probably the best value choice going.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/14 15:56:20


Post by: xeen


locarno24 wrote:
Yeah. They give up their guns, but if you were relying on 10 autoguns to....uh.....anything, you're kinda doing it wrong.

In return, they offer wounds at basically the same cost as regular cultists - 75pts for 14 wounds instead of 50 for 10.

In return you get T4 and a 6+ ignore wounds roll, making them nearly twice as tough to bolter fire and still just as able to benefit from to-hit penalties and save bonuses from cover, and with a mix of 1w and 3w models you can play damage allocation games to ensure it does take 14 wounding hits to wipe them out. Add in objective secured, free model regeneration every turn and the fact that torments are at least not awful in melee and if you want a sub 100 point unit to run to an objective then sit there and defend it and they're probably the best value choice going.


Yea being troops changed up opinion on them. Now only if you could actually buy them now (did not see them on GW website)


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/14 19:09:09


Post by: Thariinye


They haven't been released yet - in fact none of the revealed new CSM models have been released generally. That's the Dark Commune, the new Cultists + Accursed Cultists, the new Possessed, or even the base CSM + Kill Team Sprue (those guys should be dropping for preorder this Saturday). The new DP is probably coming out near the end of this year with the AoS Slaves to Darkness book (presumably with a revised 40k datasheet) and we heard rumors of new Bikers but those models haven't even been revealed yet.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/14 19:24:27


Post by: EviscerationPlague


 Thariinye wrote:
They haven't been released yet - in fact none of the revealed new CSM models have been released generally. That's the Dark Commune, the new Cultists + Accursed Cultists, the new Possessed, or even the base CSM + Kill Team Sprue (those guys should be dropping for preorder this Saturday). The new DP is probably coming out near the end of this year with the AoS Slaves to Darkness book (presumably with a revised 40k datasheet) and we heard rumors of new Bikers but those models haven't even been revealed yet.

Apparently one of the guys doing rule reviews (I think it was Auspex) said that he was surprised that Huron wasn't released, which means he had info on it.


Chaos Space Marines Codex Tactica (9th Edition) @ 2022/07/15 00:35:25


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Accursed cultists are really good. Waiting for their models to be released. Cultists still have a place if you are really want the absolute cheapest troop choice, but if you can afford the 25 points extra, then accursed cultists are much better. They are like the CSM version of pox walkers except they fight better and move faster.