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Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 03:28:40


Post by: Hecaton


(I imagine this thread won't get as much traction as the other one because it isn't as controversial, but here goes).

One of the interesting features of the depiction of human characters in 40k is the ubiquity of cybernetics - from entire limbs, eyes, down the weirdly common tubes plugged into the side of people's heads. Culturally, the Imperium doesn't particularly care about making cybernetics and bionic replacement limbs look natural - the Adeptus Mechanicus of course wears their augmentations proudly, but even wealthy nobility in the Imperium seem to be more interested in decorating their bionics rather than making them blend in. What's more, bionic limbs are treated as a matter of course in the setting, and some characters actively seek them out without needing an injury or deficiency beforehand.

Two other fantastical settings that have opinions on this subject that I can think of are Shadowrun and Star Wars. In Shadowrun's case, the more implants you get results in losses of essence, which is both your ability to use magic and your mental and spiritual well-being. In Star Wars, bionics like Darth Vader's are supposed to inhibit one's ability to use the Force, and as per George Lucas himself the Emperor was looking to upgrade to a less damaged Luke from his father, due to Luke only having a bionic hand but Darth Vader being in an ambulatory walking lung. In both cases, the abilities that are inhibited due to the loss of limbs or bodily integrity are not just capabilities per se; nobody's going to bat an eye if someone with a missing leg has trouble getting around. The abilities that are inhibited are instead signatory of spiritual well-being, compassion, virtue, and so on, with the implication that people who are missing their original, biological limbs are not only missing parts physically but not whole spiritually, which is an extremely bigoted outlook, in my view.

So 40k has none of that. There's no evidence that having cybernetics inhibits your ability to use psychic powers (though of course the Adeptus Mechanicus are generally not fans of psychic powers and they love bionics). Hell, sometimes psychic hoods are implanted. So it avoids a number of bigoted ableist takes and embraces the idea that people who are missing limbs or otherwise in need of assistance devices are just as whole as the rest of humanity (and just as capable of being a bigoted shitbag, but hey, it's 40k).


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 08:01:41


Post by: a_typical_hero


Those are fantasy realities with fantasy "physics". If a lost arm degrades your ability to use the force, then that is a fact within the setting. I fail to see how this could be bigoted?

The definition from Merriam Webster:
a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

Nope, still not seeing it.

I wouldn't look for moral advice in fantasy stories that were written 30-40 years ago, back when none of the current social discussion existed.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 08:21:44


Post by: Hecaton


a_typical_hero wrote:
Those are fantasy realities with fantasy "physics". If a lost arm degrades your ability to use the force, then that is a fact within the setting. I fail to see how this could be bigoted?


Because the ability to use the force is also portrayed as function of spiritual strength, inner virtue, courage, etc.

a_typical_hero wrote:

Nope, still not seeing it.

I wouldn't look for moral advice in fantasy stories that were written 30-40 years ago, back when none of the current social discussion existed.


Star Wars is very much relevant in terms of moralistic storytelling; I assume you're not familiar with Joseph Campbell's work?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 09:14:02


Post by: Dai


The way the company dunks on the nazi fanbois is the bare mimimum i suppose.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 09:40:34


Post by: a_typical_hero


Hecaton wrote:
Because the ability to use the force is also portrayed as function of spiritual strength, inner virtue, courage, etc.

And people are still able to use it while being severely injured / missing big parts of their body, as shown by Vader. It might be easier for whatever made up reason, but if your inner / mental strength is enough to make use of the force, doesn't that show the exact opposite? That you can be a force user just like anyone else if you have enough willpower and determination?


Hecaton wrote:
Star Wars is very much relevant in terms of moralistic storytelling; I assume you're not familiar with Joseph Campbell's work?

As a matter of fact, I am not. Can you summarise what is relevant to the topic, please?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 10:21:10


Post by: Manchu


Hecaton seems to have signed off and, being familiar with the issue, I’ll try explaining. SW uses the “Hero’s Journey” tropes that Campbell believed formed a common moral/narrative structure, underpinning mythologies from all over the world across thousands of years. (Although arguably, he was just reading Jungian archetypes onto various mythologies.) In essence, the idea was that SW participated in the “timelessness” of this “universal” myth.

In SW-proper, i.e., the story about Darth Vader, losing limbs and becoming “more machine than man” is associated with being corrupted and losing connection to the moral “Force” that shapes the heroic destiny. If you tried to consider these artistic symbols literally, you might misconstrue the theme as being ableist.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 10:57:47


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Yes it has changed recently but for a good 2 decades...

[Thumb - temp.jpg]


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 11:33:43


Post by: Sim-Life


I always thought the Imperium was pretty inclusive just by virtue of being totally indifferent towards the individual. As long as you follow the Imperial Creed and contribute to the machine you can basically do what you want as long as it isn't against the local laws, which while the Imperium can't really dictate on an individual level I don't think any fluff exists that portrays any Planetary Governor or Imperial Law as particularly discriminatory against their general populace except in the case of rooting out Chaos/tyranid cults or what have you, in which case that's a whole different kettle of fish in regards to inclusion and not something that you can compare to the real world.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 11:44:27


Post by: vipoid


It's certainly inclusive when it comes to rules.

It doesn't matter if a rule is good, bad, or outright nonsensical - all are welcome in 40k!


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 11:45:29


Post by: a_typical_hero


Given the intented vagueness of how Imperial worlds are governed, and the vast amount of them, you probably have both extremes and everything inbetween.

Terra itself does not care wether you prosecute or discriminate against whoever for whatever reason, as long as you pay your tithes. Your planet can have the brightest democracies (I imagine some Ultramarine planets are going in that direction) and the darkest hell holes. Only your tithe is important. And following the Imperial creed, as you said.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 12:05:49


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Sim-Life wrote:
I always thought the Imperium was pretty inclusive just by virtue of being totally indifferent towards the individual. As long as you follow the Imperial Creed and contribute to the machine you can basically do what you want as long as it isn't against the local laws, which while the Imperium can't really dictate on an individual level I don't think any fluff exists that portrays any Planetary Governor or Imperial Law as particularly discriminatory against their general populace except in the case of rooting out Chaos/tyranid cults or what have you, in which case that's a whole different kettle of fish in regards to inclusion and not something that you can compare to the real world.


This. Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly. We’ve seen no evidence of gendered roles, or non-cis being treated persecuted at all. Yes, some Guard regiments are single sex. But that’s a Regimental rule, not an Imperium one. And as we see in the Cain novels, it won’t necessarily stop two single sex regiments being merged up to fighting strength, creating a mixed sex regiment.

In-universe, even single sex organisations have reasoning for them. Be it a way around a rule (Sisters of Battle) a limitation of technology (Custodes and Astartes) or a quirk of genetics/possibly cloning (Escher and Sisters of Silence). We may not, from the outside looking in with modern sensibilities think they’re good reasons. But they are reasons nonetheless.

Crucially, there’s nothing in the background to even suggest The Emperor limited himself to male Astartes by design. Rather whatever technoarcana he had access to at the time required the Y Chromosome. We can reasonably infer this to be the case (we’re told it has to be male candidates, but never really why) because given the scale of his plans? Why would you ever voluntarily limit yourself to just 50% of the available populace? Many silly “you’ve not actually stopped to think this through, have you?” Out of universe arguments (men are stronger than women on average) fall away because of the Astartes Creation Process. Gene therapy, artificial organs, pumped full of growth hormones etc. Plus, once your encased in Astartes Power Armour, any slight difference in strength largely falls away entirely, because it further enhanced your strength.

Time. Time is what The Emperor lacked. He had to get the Crusade going when he did - when the birth of Slaanesh blew away warp storms, furthering his reach. Always remember Astartes were a bodge job, in the wake of the Primarch’s going missing. Had that not happened, who knows? We know and can background demonstrate the discovery of each Primarch allowed Geneseed flaws to be if not cured, at least mitigated. Skipping forward 40,000 years, the event of the Primaris strain strongly suggests they’re closer to the original plan.

Now had things gone differently, it’s entirely feasible female Primarchs were a project in mind. Because as I said above, when you’ve a Galaxy to forcibly conquer, why the hell would you voluntarily limit your best troops to roughly half the available stock?

And so the setting is inclusive. Sure I’m not aware of any explicitly trans characters. But when you see post-humans, clones, genhanced etc being quite common place (House Goliath for instance) I don’t think someone transitioning gender is….at all remarkable. Indeed it could simply be so incredibly passé it’s not worth really noting?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 12:36:24


Post by: Manchu


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly.
This is a joke, right?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 12:38:28


Post by: Sim-Life


 Manchu wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly.
This is a joke, right?


In what way is it incorrect?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 12:42:00


Post by: Karol


 Manchu wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly.
This is a joke, right?

Why would that be a joke? The human empire cares about only one race, the human one. Everything downwards from that is of non consequances. Being recruited to any of the imperial organisations, drafted by imperial navy press gang etc. No one cares about skin colour, gender, sexuality. It is 100% equal.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 12:49:03


Post by: The_Real_Chris


a_typical_hero wrote:
Given the intented vagueness of how Imperial worlds are governed, and the vast amount of them, you probably have both extremes and everything inbetween.


Given the habit for many governments to rule through divide and rule, or the promotion of minorities as a comprador class, not to mention some planetary governors deciding to knock over their neighbour and rule more worlds etc. I am sure many create dissention and division as part of ruling.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 12:51:57


Post by: techsoldaten


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly.

Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch agree.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 12:54:39


Post by: Crispy78


Karol wrote:
 Manchu wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly.
This is a joke, right?

Why would that be a joke? The human empire cares about only one race, the human one. Everything downwards from that is of non consequances. Being recruited to any of the imperial organisations, drafted by imperial navy press gang etc. No one cares about skin colour, gender, sexuality. It is 100% equal.


To quote Terry Pratchett - black and white live in harmony, and gang up on green...


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 12:55:49


Post by: Karol


The_Real_Chris 805796 11391282 wrote:

Given the habit for many governments to rule through divide and rule, or the promotion of minorities as a comprador class, not to mention some planetary governors deciding to knock over their neighbour and rule more worlds etc. I am sure many create dissention and division as part of ruling.


In a authoritarian society you don't need to do that. Specialy one that is 10k years old. Everyone knows what their job is, and if they don't want to do it then they either enter the fringes of the society, like the underhives or being a criminal. And this is considered the easy way. Or you get outright accused of rebelion against the state, and get purged. The states, unless it is part of some internal games between the local noblity or various adeptus, doesn't need to create any special groups for society to work better. Specialy as they already have a good enough whip to make people do their job in the form of various xenos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crispy78 805796 11391287 wrote:

To quote Terry Pratchett - black and white live in harmony, and gang up on green...


I don't know who that is, and I don't think the colour translate well the political parites we have here.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 12:58:54


Post by: TheBestBucketHead


Most worlds don't need much of an "out group" considering that Xenos, Heretics, Mutants, Psykers, and Abhumans fill the roles to varying degrees.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crispy78 805796 11391287 wrote:

To quote Terry Pratchett - black and white live in harmony, and gang up on green...


I don't know who that is, and I don't think the colour translate well the political parites we have here.


He's an author, and I don't think the colors were meant to be political parties, but just vague groups.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 13:29:18


Post by: Sim-Life


The_Real_Chris wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
Given the intented vagueness of how Imperial worlds are governed, and the vast amount of them, you probably have both extremes and everything inbetween.


Given the habit for many governments to rule through divide and rule, or the promotion of minorities as a comprador class, not to mention some planetary governors deciding to knock over their neighbour and rule more worlds etc. I am sure many create dissention and division as part of ruling.


If only there was some kind of common threat to humanity that the Imperium could ise as propoganda to unify the population behind amd frighten them into compliamce. Like a hostile alien race, or some kind of heretical religion. Seems like an oversight on the writers to not think of that.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 14:28:05


Post by: catbarf


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I always thought the Imperium was pretty inclusive just by virtue of being totally indifferent towards the individual. As long as you follow the Imperial Creed and contribute to the machine you can basically do what you want as long as it isn't against the local laws, which while the Imperium can't really dictate on an individual level I don't think any fluff exists that portrays any Planetary Governor or Imperial Law as particularly discriminatory against their general populace except in the case of rooting out Chaos/tyranid cults or what have you, in which case that's a whole different kettle of fish in regards to inclusion and not something that you can compare to the real world.


This. Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly. We’ve seen no evidence of gendered roles, or non-cis being treated persecuted at all.


I'm a little hesitant to label the Imperium as tolerant just because they don't care about sex, orientation, or skin color. They'll still burn you alive if you have visible deformities (mutant!), have contact with outsiders (xenophile!), or have cultural practices that could be construed an unsanctioned religion (heretic!).

Especially if you're looking at the setting at a thematic rather than strictly literal level, where writing aliens as stand-ins for foreign human cultures, or fictional social issues as stand-ins for real-world ones, is a time-honored tradition in sci-fi. Take away the satire and 40K is pretty much fascist propaganda- where every immigrant group and alternate religion is secretly seeking to corrupt and subvert the populace to foreign powers that all plot the downfall of the noble empire, sexual deviancy is an avenue for possession by literal demons from hell, and the only way to keep the race species pure is intolerance and wars of aggression. I know of a book that explicitly satirizes this sci-fi trope and it's funny how closely its meta-narrative matches 40K.

So I mean, yeah I guess as long as you're born human, aren't born with any deformities that could be construed as mutation, do exactly what you're told, don't speak out, and don't cause trouble for the governor in a way that could impact the tithe, then the Imperium is pretty tolerant. I don't think that's really saying all that much, and to me it seems like missing the forest for the trees.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 14:36:33


Post by: Crispy78


 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
Most worlds don't need much of an "out group" considering that Xenos, Heretics, Mutants, Psykers, and Abhumans fill the roles to varying degrees.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crispy78 805796 11391287 wrote:

To quote Terry Pratchett - black and white live in harmony, and gang up on green...


I don't know who that is, and I don't think the colour translate well the political parites we have here.


He's an author, and I don't think the colors were meant to be political parties, but just vague groups.


The full quote is:
“Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because—what with trolls and dwarfs and so on—speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green.”


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 15:18:58


Post by: TheBestBucketHead


Thank you. I never read Discworld, but have heard that it's fantastic.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 16:12:27


Post by: The_Real_Chris


I would recommend picking up Guards! Guards! for a good cross section of the flavour, style and setting.

Plus it has one of the best dedications ever.

“They may be called the Palace Guard, the City Guard, or the Patrol. Whatever the name, their purpose in any work of heroic fantasy is identical: it is, round about Chapter Three (or ten minutes into the film) to rush into the room, attack the hero one at a time, and be slaughtered. No one ever asks them if they want to.
This book is dedicated to those fine men.”


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 16:25:23


Post by: Amishprn86


I believe near 1/2 of Quins and DE models are males and females.

Sisters will burn everyone including women and children equally.

Necromunda is pretty inclusive too.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 17:26:33


Post by: ERJAK


 vipoid wrote:
It's certainly inclusive when it comes to rules.

It doesn't matter if a rule is good, bad, or outright nonsensical - all are welcome in 40k!


This is the most pathetically forced soapboxing I've ever heard. You should be ashamed of yourself. Go away.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 17:42:10


Post by: Karol


Show an example of any rule, social or game one which is not open to everyone aside for people who are a danger to others or outright criminals ?

There is no you have to be X, Y and Z to play w40k coming from the company. Now players can of course do the whole , you won't be missed, because someone doesn't like to paint or super optimise their lists, but they are not the ones that decide how the game is.


The only thing which excludes people from participating in the w40k hobby is the monatery cost of an army.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 17:44:43


Post by: Hecaton


The_Real_Chris wrote:
Yes it has changed recently but for a good 2 decades...


This seems irrelevant to my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a_typical_hero wrote:
And people are still able to use it while being severely injured / missing big parts of their body, as shown by Vader. It might be easier for whatever made up reason, but if your inner / mental strength is enough to make use of the force, doesn't that show the exact opposite? That you can be a force user just like anyone else if you have enough willpower and determination?


Nah, Lucas's commentary on the issue is that the more cybernetic parts Vader had the less powerful he got in the Force. As in, his spiritual connection to the universe or whatever was diminished because he is physically handicapped.


a_typical_hero wrote:
As a matter of fact, I am not. Can you summarise what is relevant to the topic, please?


So someone else mentioned this a bit, but the point is that the stories Lucas was trying to tell were archetypal stories about good and evil; they were "fairy tales" in that he wanted to interact with the mythological underpinnings of fiction. So it's definitely relevant to modern society, and in particular he was thinking about the Vietnam era when he wrote Star Wars, Vader's breathing noises are evocative of an iron lung, etc.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 17:56:26


Post by: JNAProductions


Hecaton wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
Yes it has changed recently but for a good 2 decades...


This seems irrelevant to my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a_typical_hero wrote:
And people are still able to use it while being severely injured / missing big parts of their body, as shown by Vader. It might be easier for whatever made up reason, but if your inner / mental strength is enough to make use of the force, doesn't that show the exact opposite? That you can be a force user just like anyone else if you have enough willpower and determination?


Nah, Lucas's commentary on the issue is that the more cybernetic parts Vader had the less powerful he got in the Force. As in, his spiritual connection to the universe or whatever was diminished because he is physically handicapped.


a_typical_hero wrote:
As a matter of fact, I am not. Can you summarise what is relevant to the topic, please?


So someone else mentioned this a bit, but the point is that the stories Lucas was trying to tell were archetypal stories about good and evil; they were "fairy tales" in that he wanted to interact with the mythological underpinnings of fiction. So it's definitely relevant to modern society, and in particular he was thinking about the Vietnam era when he wrote Star Wars, Vader's breathing noises are evocative of an iron lung, etc.
And yet Vader could still use the force. He was still quite powerful in it.

Lucas might've been going for that, but GW rules writers also go for "This will be awesome on the tabletop!"
How successful they are varies. A lot.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 18:09:03


Post by: ScarletRose


It's interesting bringing up explicit cybernetics. While I definitely think it's an area of human variance that the Imperium allows in the setting IMO it's mostly because of how striated society is in the setting. Cybernetics are expensive/socially gated goods so those with them would want to show them off.

Forges of Mars actually had a mechanicus character that other characters saw as noteworthy because her augments were subtle. Having human shaped cybernetic arms and not gigantic bicep pistons was considered weird.I suppose it's like finding out your coworker was secretly a millionaire and only spent the money on really good quality black slacks for work.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 18:13:38


Post by: Karol


 JNAProductions wrote:
And yet Vader could still use the force. He was still quite powerful in it.

Lucas might've been going for that, but GW rules writers also go for "This will be awesome on the tabletop!"
How successful they are varies. A lot.

He was the chosen one. If Brock Lesner gets 15% weaker, he is still stronger then practicaly every man alive.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 18:14:56


Post by: Backspacehacker


Karol wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
And yet Vader could still use the force. He was still quite powerful in it.

Lucas might've been going for that, but GW rules writers also go for "This will be awesome on the tabletop!"
How successful they are varies. A lot.

He was the chosen one. If Brock Lesner gets 15% weaker, he is still stronger then practicaly every man alive.


Ahem AAAAAKTUALLY!!!! Luke was the chosen one.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 18:20:22


Post by: Karol


He was the son of the chosen one and all Skywalkers were special. But if Georg Lucas says that Anakin Skywalker was the chosen one created by the force as an anwser to what Darth Plagueis was doing, they I will trust him on that.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 18:20:47


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Backspacehacker wrote:
Karol wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
And yet Vader could still use the force. He was still quite powerful in it.

Lucas might've been going for that, but GW rules writers also go for "This will be awesome on the tabletop!"
How successful they are varies. A lot.

He was the chosen one. If Brock Lesner gets 15% weaker, he is still stronger then practicaly every man alive.


Ahem AAAAAKTUALLY!!!! Luke was the chosen one.


I reckon it was Ben Solo myself.

He does functionally destroy The Sith, leaving Rey as the sole, known, remaining Jedi at large in the Galaxy.

Of course, that’s even assuming there is a Chosen One. Prophecies aren’t exactly noted for their accuracy.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 18:22:51


Post by: Backspacehacker


That feel when we will never get a remake of Jaina solo training with boba and the awkwardness of it.
"Hey sorry i tried to kill your dad i guess."


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 18:31:50


Post by: Hecaton


 JNAProductions wrote:
And yet Vader could still use the force. He was still quite powerful in it.


Yes, but only because he started out *even more* powerful. He was diminished by his injuries i.e. lesser as a human being, including spiritually, due to suffering those injuries.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 18:52:17


Post by: vipoid


ERJAK wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
It's certainly inclusive when it comes to rules.

It doesn't matter if a rule is good, bad, or outright nonsensical - all are welcome in 40k!


This is the most pathetically forced soapboxing I've ever heard. You should be ashamed of yourself. Go away.


Oh bugger off you miserable spod.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 23:32:34


Post by: Void__Dragon


Pretty all right thread ngl, a breath of fresh air after all the transphobes in the other thread took their masks off.

The comparison to Darth Vader is particularly interesting and I'd never really viewed Lucas' statements on him through an ableist lens.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


This. Treating everyone awfully is, in its own way, treating everyone fairly.


To a point. It is true that the Imperial apparatus as a whole is pretty free of some IRL social biases like ethnicity or gender (though IIRC some planets do have their own cultures that still have these more mundane bigotries in place), but as someone alluded to earlier plenty of other things like largely benign mutations or being friendly to aliens is grounds for execution.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/06/30 23:44:35


Post by: Blndmage


[quote=Karol 805796 11391616
The only thing which excludes people from participating in the w40k hobby is the monatery cost of an army.


I'm broke AF and have hand me down models. Cost is bad, but there are ways to get models, talk to your local community.

Also, in terms of who's not allowed.... Nazis and other fascists being banned from clubs/groups/tournaments would be a great step forward.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 00:46:38


Post by: Manchu


 Void__Dragon wrote:
I'd never really viewed Lucas' statements on him through an ableist lens.
Me, either. The whole thing about losing connection the Force because of having prosthetics came from the EU and I don’t think that can be laid at Lucas’s feet. But that line from Obi-Wan: “He’s more machine than man now, twisted and evil.”


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 01:44:03


Post by: KingGarland


OP: I am going to create a thread to talk about how 40K is actually secretly inclusive.

Everyone else: Star Wars, son.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 08:52:04


Post by: Cyel


I remember a story of a Dark Angels squad coming to the rescue of some guardsmen only to discover that some of them are abhumans. Space Marines are disgusted, voice their contempt and how much of a waste it was to fight to help some abhumans, then leave.

I'm quite sure that's the pervading spirit throughout the Imperium, abhumans or any other minorities. Tribalism and ingroup-outgroup thinking are too much ingrained in human brains for evolution to get rid of in 10.000 years, especially in a universe that nurtures hateful sentiments.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 08:59:20


Post by: Dai


Everyone in 40k is ace it seems, inclusive to the likes of me at least!


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 09:08:35


Post by: CadianSgtBob


Dai wrote:
Everyone in 40k is ace it seems, inclusive to the likes of me at least!


And that one squad of slaanesh marines makes up for everyone else.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 09:08:37


Post by: Blackie


Karol wrote:
The only thing which excludes people from participating in the w40k hobby is the monatery cost of an army.



I've played with semi-free cardboard tokens (of the size of the bases) for years when I was a kid and me and my group of people my age couldn't afford proper armies, just random models here and there to enjoy to other part of the hobby, painting. Had a great time. Now there are even ways to avoid paying for the rules.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 09:15:18


Post by: Hecaton


Cyel wrote:
I remember a story of a Dark Angels squad coming to the rescue of some guardsmen only to discover that some of them are abhumans. Space Marines are disgusted, voice their contempt and how much of a waste it was to fight to help some abhumans, then leave.

I'm quite sure that's the pervading spirit throughout the Imperium, abhumans or any other minorities. Tribalism and ingroup-outgroup thinking are too much ingrained in human brains for evolution to get rid of in 10.000 years, especially in a universe that nurtures hateful sentiments.


People in a setting being racist/bigoted doesn't mean the message of the setting is so.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 09:17:45


Post by: Dai


CadianSgtBob wrote:
Dai wrote:
Everyone in 40k is ace it seems, inclusive to the likes of me at least!


And that one squad of slaanesh marines makes up for everyone else.

True!
I find it funny that in this galaxy of absolute x rated awfulness everywhere sex is just not mentioned. Some sort of reflection on our society really.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 09:19:19


Post by: Cyel


Hecaton wrote:
Cyel wrote:
I remember a story of a Dark Angels squad coming to the rescue of some guardsmen only to discover that some of them are abhumans. Space Marines are disgusted, voice their contempt and how much of a waste it was to fight to help some abhumans, then leave.

I'm quite sure that's the pervading spirit throughout the Imperium, abhumans or any other minorities. Tribalism and ingroup-outgroup thinking are too much ingrained in human brains for evolution to get rid of in 10.000 years, especially in a universe that nurtures hateful sentiments.


People in a setting being racist/bigoted doesn't mean the message of the setting is so.


Of course, it is quite the opposite - a cautionary tale, like any dystopia is supposed to be.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 09:30:54


Post by: Sim-Life


Cyel wrote:
I remember a story of a Dark Angels squad coming to the rescue of some guardsmen only to discover that some of them are abhumans. Space Marines are disgusted, voice their contempt and how much of a waste it was to fight to help some abhumans, then leave.

I'm quite sure that's the pervading spirit throughout the Imperium, abhumans or any other minorities. Tribalism and ingroup-outgroup thinking are too much ingrained in human brains for evolution to get rid of in 10.000 years, especially in a universe that nurtures hateful sentiments.


You mean the fundamentalist religious psychopaths of a Chapter known specifically for being particularly fundamentalist were mean to people who could be interpreted as unclean based on the religion they fanatically follow to absurd levels?

We know the general Imperium doesn't really care much about abhumans being different because otherwise you wouldn't see Guardsmen sharing transports with ogryns or ratlings (you even said it was a Guard unit incorporating abhumans), but using Space Marines, who are a basically a brainwashed, roided up fringe fundamentalist military faction that represents like 0.0001% of the Imperium's population as being inductive of the rest of humanities attitude towards abhumans is misguided.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 10:00:24


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Yeah Space Marines are basically the Sardaukar with a bit of the crusader knights thrown in.
They are a small, elite cadre of fanatical soldiers.
Using them as a baseline for the Imperium is like using the Knights Templar as a baseline for France or the Black Hand for Serbia.

Turning them into the poster boys was a mistake.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 10:27:25


Post by: Soulless


I feel so old and sad when I realize there are people, even in a hobby such as this, who dont even know who Terry Pratchett was.

The tweet that was posted on his twitter the day after he died almost brings a tear to my eye still;

"AT LAST, SIR TERRY, WE MUST WALK TOGETHER."


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 10:39:36


Post by: Sim-Life


Soulless wrote:
I feel so old and sad when I realize there are people, even in a hobby such as this, who dont even know who Terry Pratchett was.

The tweet that was posted on his twitter the day after he died almost brings a tear to my eye still;

"AT LAST, SIR TERRY, WE MUST WALK TOGETHER."


Karol is 17, Polish and from what I understand lives in a smallish, fairly isolated/rural location (even for Poland). I wouldn't get to het up about it.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 12:21:22


Post by: Just_Breathe


There's something for everybody.
Dumb dips just need to be reminded that casual genocide is not OK.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 13:05:40


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Not relevant? It is, because we all like to roll back things to the earliest lore. And that is a classic white man in space style pulp fiction trope mixed with horror and a history undergrads knowledge of the world. Everything else is built on that and unless you consciously diverge you don't get to reflect more of humanity in a setting where, as has been pointed out, they are viewed in a very dehumanised way. The Iron Warrior novel with a squad defending their world against Orks sums it up quite well, referring to weapons as meat or metal. (Sadly it also showed them to be tactically muppets, even the dumbest WW1 commander had relearnt siege tactics from previous centuries of the counter attack being the key defensive measure if you can't stop the initial attack far enough out.)

Dai wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
Dai wrote:
Everyone in 40k is ace it seems, inclusive to the likes of me at least!


And that one squad of slaanesh marines makes up for everyone else.

True!
I find it funny that in this galaxy of absolute x rated awfulness everywhere sex is just not mentioned. Some sort of reflection on our society really.


Is that a legacy of the Victorians and the wave of Christian fundies that preceded and accompanied them? Whilst death was inescapable sex could be hidden away and any good mastermind will tell you controlling sex is an excellent method of societal control.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 13:38:46


Post by: Kya_Vess


I mean, meat for the meat grinder is as inclusive as it gets.

As for the imperium at large, heck and GW ironically mirroring it... wealth (really the lack of) is probably the most unexclusive aspect about the IoM.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 13:59:08


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Dai wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
Dai wrote:
Everyone in 40k is ace it seems, inclusive to the likes of me at least!


And that one squad of slaanesh marines makes up for everyone else.

True!
I find it funny that in this galaxy of absolute x rated awfulness everywhere sex is just not mentioned. Some sort of reflection on our society really.

Well yeah, because GW still wants to sell it to kids.
There's a reason why Diaz daemonettes aren't around anymore and nids lost their crotch beaks.
I mean, 40k should really just look like Tokyo Gore Police, but not everyone has the stomach for that.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 14:02:52


Post by: Unusual Suspect


There's no evidence that having cybernetics inhibits your ability to use psychic powers (though of course the Adeptus Mechanicus are generally not fans of psychic powers and they love bionics).


That's... not exactly true. I'm not sure how much evidence there is in total, but Wrath of Iron features a Librarian's point of view regarding cybernetic enhancements, and what it does to someone's soul.

Wrath of Iron wrote:Every Iron Hands squad was active, spread out across the labyrinthine interior. When he chose to, Telach could see them all in his mind, arranged like dots of starlight amid the huge backdrop of the hive spire. The younger the warriors were, the brighter their light burned. The veterans of the Chapter, those like Khatir and Rauth, only shone dimly in the dark, like the afterglow of a lumen after the power has been cut.

He knew why that was. Perhaps only the Chapter’s Librarius really understood the price the Iron Hands paid for their physical enhancement.

What would happen, Telach wondered, if an Iron Hand ever achieved the perfection he craved? What would happen if, by some miracle of bioengineering, the very last fragments of organic matter were stripped from his metal skeleton? Would he register at all on Telach’s map of souls, or would he slip into nothingness, lost in the background coldness of the material universe?

Perhaps, if so, then that would not be something to mourn. No one could deny the power given to the Chapter by its continual quest for augmetic self-improvement. The Iron Hands believed, perhaps even correctly, that no force within the Imperium was as resolute as they were. More deadly warriors existed, they acknowledged, more violent, more flamboyant, faster and more devout, but none that possessed the capacity to endure as they did, to weather any storm with infinite stoicism, to keep going even when the enemies ranged against them had no limit. They took pride in that belief. All of them, from the rawest Medusan neophyte to the revered ancients in their Dreadnought sarcophagi, carried that pride in their beating hearts, using it to drive them onwards to new feats of endurance, of devastation, of resistance.

Pride, thought Telach. Perhaps that is the last emotion to go when the final soul-flicker has been extinguished. We have, after all, purged everything else.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 14:21:08


Post by: catbarf


Sim-Life wrote:We know the general Imperium doesn't really care much about abhumans being different because otherwise you wouldn't see Guardsmen sharing transports with ogryns or ratlings (you even said it was a Guard unit incorporating abhumans)


We know the Imperium does care quite a bit about abhumans being different because Ogryns and Ratlings are specifically considered 'sanctioned' abhumans. Unsanctioned mutants are subject to either extermination or being rounded up and deployed as cannon fodder. The Imperium has some pretty hardline propaganda about physical corruption reflecting spiritual corruption. Deviation from the 'pure' human baseline is seen with suspicion at best and persecution at worst.

And I mean, it's not like those abhumans are considered equals. They don't get to rise in the ranks of Imperial hierarchy; they're essentially treated as disposable troops.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 15:08:09


Post by: Sim-Life


 catbarf wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:We know the general Imperium doesn't really care much about abhumans being different because otherwise you wouldn't see Guardsmen sharing transports with ogryns or ratlings (you even said it was a Guard unit incorporating abhumans)


They don't get to rise in the ranks of Imperial hierarchy; they're essentially treated as disposable troops.


You mean like almost everyone else? Most promotions in the Guard are battlefield promotions after all.
The thing you need to remember about 40k is presence of physical deformities in 40k is not the same as it is in our society and so shouldn't be viewed the same way. There is literal magical space energy constantly seeking to subvert and corrupt society in 40k which manifests via physical deformities. Despite GWs insistence Chaos is not just big spiky marines laughing maniacally and announcing themselves with big pink explosions and heavy metal. It's a creeping and insidious force that if left unchecked can result in disaster. You need to seperate yourself from the idea that 40k society is the same as ours but in 40,000 years.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 15:53:39


Post by: Dudeface


 catbarf wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:We know the general Imperium doesn't really care much about abhumans being different because otherwise you wouldn't see Guardsmen sharing transports with ogryns or ratlings (you even said it was a Guard unit incorporating abhumans)


We know the Imperium does care quite a bit about abhumans being different because Ogryns and Ratlings are specifically considered 'sanctioned' abhumans. Unsanctioned mutants are subject to either extermination or being rounded up and deployed as cannon fodder. The Imperium has some pretty hardline propaganda about physical corruption reflecting spiritual corruption. Deviation from the 'pure' human baseline is seen with suspicion at best and persecution at worst.

And I mean, it's not like those abhumans are considered equals. They don't get to rise in the ranks of Imperial hierarchy; they're essentially treated as disposable troops.


There's a great scene in one of the war of the beast books where a black templar comes across a human in a cell with a group of "longshanks" which are low gravity adapted abhumans. The templar just casually guns them down rather than rescue them from the orks because they're considered not worth saving.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 15:53:55


Post by: Andykp


Saying the imperium is inclusive is like saying the nazis or stalinists were inclusive. You’re welcome as long as you conform and fit in. They just swapped Jews, disabled people and homosexuals for aliens and mutants. The whole point of the satire of 40k was that it was an authoritarian society that tolerated no difference at all.

Saying the game is inclusive is a bit of a stretch too. But has been discussed at length and I am not going to give hecaton another soap box.

The big issue with 40k and inclusivity is the community. While the majority might be very welcoming to all manner of people there is a very vocal minority that are not inclusive at all. The biggest problem is that the rest of the community excuse, ignore or even defend this minority.

GW is starting to lead on this by representing more people in its products but could do more. But at the end of the day it’s the community that will have to drive the change be more inclusive.

Not really intending to post much more in this topic because it screams “Bait” to me.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 15:59:04


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Dudeface wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Sim-Life wrote:We know the general Imperium doesn't really care much about abhumans being different because otherwise you wouldn't see Guardsmen sharing transports with ogryns or ratlings (you even said it was a Guard unit incorporating abhumans)


We know the Imperium does care quite a bit about abhumans being different because Ogryns and Ratlings are specifically considered 'sanctioned' abhumans. Unsanctioned mutants are subject to either extermination or being rounded up and deployed as cannon fodder. The Imperium has some pretty hardline propaganda about physical corruption reflecting spiritual corruption. Deviation from the 'pure' human baseline is seen with suspicion at best and persecution at worst.

And I mean, it's not like those abhumans are considered equals. They don't get to rise in the ranks of Imperial hierarchy; they're essentially treated as disposable troops.


There's a great scene in one of the war of the beast books where a black templar comes across a human in a cell with a group of "longshanks" which are low gravity adapted abhumans. The templar just casually guns them down rather than rescue them from the orks because they're considered not worth saving.
The Black Templar would gun down the Navigators that fly their ships if they weren't needed. They're on the fully radical side when it comes to hating everything. The Red Scorpions are pretty on par as well when it comes to hating Abhumans.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 16:21:49


Post by: Tokhuah


The Imperium is the equivalent of an internally inclusive white supremacists organization like the Nazi's.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 17:13:47


Post by: catbarf


Sim-Life wrote:The thing you need to remember about 40k is presence of physical deformities in 40k is not the same as it is in our society and so shouldn't be viewed the same way. There is literal magical space energy constantly seeking to subvert and corrupt society in 40k which manifests via physical deformities. Despite GWs insistence Chaos is not just big spiky marines laughing maniacally and announcing themselves with big pink explosions and heavy metal. It's a creeping and insidious force that if left unchecked can result in disaster. You need to seperate yourself from the idea that 40k society is the same as ours but in 40,000 years.


Yes, with the 40K Imperium being a tongue-in-cheek satire of fascism, tolerance frequently results in being conquered by aliens / possessed by demons / forced into slavery / et cetera, and to the Imperials this is perfect justification for intolerance. That said, it's in part a problem of their own making- it's no secret that the reason many alien races hate the Imperium is specifically because the Imperials are genocidal, Chaos is only as powerful as it is because it's fed by the emotions of the Imperium, and cults easily take root because life sucks for most people. So, bit of column A, bit of column B.

But the fact that those threats are real in-universe doesn't mean the Imperium is actually a very tolerant society, it means their intolerance is justified by authorial contrivance. More to the point, none of this supports the idea that the Imperium 'doesn't really care much about abhumans being different'; at best you're justifying why the Imperium cares a lot about abhumans being different.

In any case, speaking out-of-universe, 40K is chock-full of thematic ties to the real world- it's not reasonable to ask the reader to ignore all parallels and take it at face value. I would hope that someone who looks at the goose-stepping space-authoritarians and says 'actually their genocidal policies are good because foreign cultures really are dangerous and it's necessary to preserve the purity of the Aryan human race' would have at least enough self-awareness to recognize the implications, rather than pretend that this fictional far-future society has no relevance whatsoever to our own.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 17:20:11


Post by: Hecaton


 Unusual Suspect wrote:
That's... not exactly true. I'm not sure how much evidence there is in total, but Wrath of Iron features a Librarian's point of view regarding cybernetic enhancements, and what it does to someone's soul.


It's not really part of the main canon. It's one author pulling in the ableist trope about how assistance devices or artificial limbs are "unnatural" and running with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:

The thing you need to remember about 40k is presence of physical deformities in 40k is not the same as it is in our society and so shouldn't be viewed the same way. There is literal magical space energy constantly seeking to subvert and corrupt society in 40k which manifests via physical deformities. Despite GWs insistence Chaos is not just big spiky marines laughing maniacally and announcing themselves with big pink explosions and heavy metal. It's a creeping and insidious force that if left unchecked can result in disaster. You need to seperate yourself from the idea that 40k society is the same as ours but in 40,000 years.


The Imperium also kills babies who are exposed to environmental toxins during development and thus have physical deformities. Also, just having warp mutations doesn't make someone Chaos-aligned; that generally happens because the alternative, when the Imperium is around, is "die horribly at the hands of the Arbites/Sororitas/your own family."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Manchu wrote:
Me, either. The whole thing about losing connection the Force because of having prosthetics came from the EU and I don’t think that can be laid at Lucas’s feet. But that line from Obi-Wan: “He’s more machine than man now, twisted and evil.”


No, that definitely came from Lucas. I'll see if I can find the interview, but it was definitely from him originally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:
Saying the imperium is inclusive is like saying the nazis or stalinists were inclusive. You’re welcome as long as you conform and fit in. They just swapped Jews, disabled people and homosexuals for aliens and mutants. The whole point of the satire of 40k was that it was an authoritarian society that tolerated no difference at all.


Yes, the Imperium isn't inclusive. But the setting is. The Imperium is routinely depicted as horribly bigoted (though not on this one issue). But the important thing is that the setting doesn't reinforce any bigotry along those lines, like it does for Star Wars and Shadowrun.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 17:38:10


Post by: Sim-Life


Andykp wrote:
Saying the imperium is inclusive is like saying the nazis or stalinists were inclusive. You’re welcome as long as you conform and fit in. They just swapped Jews, disabled people and homosexuals for aliens and mutants. The whole point of the satire of 40k was that it was an authoritarian society that tolerated no difference at all.


Founded on satire doesn't mean modern 40k is still the same, its not a satirical setting anymore no matter how far your imagination can stretch. Unless you actually think Jews and homosexuals are comparable to tyranids, Dark Eldar, necrons, orks, daemons etc. I don't think anything good will ever come of trying to be tolerant of a hive fleet or listening to the view point of a bloodthirster.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 17:38:39


Post by: DominayTrix


Slaaneshi forces include some female/genderfluid marines as a blessing from Slaanesh. While space marines are members of the "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" club, custodes are never mentioned to be specifically male only and since they are grown/developed from infancy it is entirely possible they have some members that started as girls.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 18:19:55


Post by: Hecaton


 DominayTrix wrote:
Slaaneshi forces include some female/genderfluid marines as a blessing from Slaanesh. While space marines are members of the "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" club, custodes are never mentioned to be specifically male only and since they are grown/developed from infancy it is entirely possible they have some members that started as girls.


One of the BL library authors talked about how he got the directive "no female Custodes" from GW. I hear what you're saying though.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 18:27:00


Post by: Kya_Vess


Andykp wrote:


The big issue with 40k and inclusivity is the community. While the majority might be very welcoming to all manner of people there is a very vocal minority that are not inclusive at all. The biggest problem is that the rest of the community excuse, ignore or even defend this minority.

GW is starting to lead on this by representing more people in its products but could do more. But at the end of the day it’s the community that will have to drive the change be more inclusive.

Not really intending to post much more in this topic because it screams “Bait” to me.


Ehh. I disagree a little. As a woman in the hobby, yeah sometimes the guys can suck. But thats not the REAL issue. The models are horrifically expensive. The games are headache inducingly long (always have to bring Advil to tournaments), and the rules are getting more complicated and bloated as time moves on. I have zero problem getting any other woman at the store into 40k during 8th when things were simple and a leman russ cost $36 lol. I can't get anyone into 9th now. And its not like the community got worse, so I can't blame that.

Don't get me wrong. It's always good to clean up bad behavior. But this weird idea some people have that if you add female space marines or something, women are going to flock to the hobby is just some made up fantasy. Fix the game and the prices, then people will join.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 18:47:50


Post by: Insectum7


^Just because I have the image handy in my gallery already.


But to the other part. Yeah sometimes the crowd can suck. I've seen that, and many, many years ago I was probably a member of the 'problem group', errors of youth and all.

But gosh, I've met some great people from all walks of life in the hobby, and in my experience the 'bad behavior crowd' is a tiny minority. The 40k (and gaming in general) player base is bigger than it ever was, and the solution to bad actors is hopefully just accessibility to a different group of actors. A different gaming club, or whatever.

Honestly it's kinda like a work environment. Some work environments are awful. But sometimes you also don't know that it can be better until you actually experience a better work environment.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 18:53:37


Post by: Karol


 Tokhuah wrote:
The Imperium is the equivalent of an internally inclusive white supremacists organization like the Nazi's.

But nazis were very externaly racialy inclusive, there were tatars, chechens,, ukrainians, turks, different types of nords, french, spanishs, people from the low countries asians like the Japanese and the Chinese till 1941. The imperium is nothing like that. It only mildly accepts the exists abhumans, and only if they are useful to the empire. If an adeptus branch deems them not useful they get burched.

Yes, the Imperium isn't inclusive. But the setting is. The Imperium is routinely depicted as horribly bigoted (though not on this one issue). But the important thing is that the setting doesn't reinforce any bigotry along those lines, like it does for Star Wars and Shadowrun.

the imperium is super inclusive. it doesn't care what or who you are, as long as you are human and work for the imperium. No goverment like that ever existed on earth.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 19:13:56


Post by: RaptorusRex


Karol wrote:
 Tokhuah wrote:
The Imperium is the equivalent of an internally inclusive white supremacists organization like the Nazi's.

But nazis were very externaly racialy inclusive, there were tatars, chechens,, ukrainians, turks, different types of nords, french, spanishs, people from the low countries asians like the Japanese and the Chinese till 1941. The imperium is nothing like that. It only mildly accepts the exists abhumans, and only if they are useful to the empire. If an adeptus branch deems them not useful they get burched.

Yes, the Imperium isn't inclusive. But the setting is. The Imperium is routinely depicted as horribly bigoted (though not on this one issue). But the important thing is that the setting doesn't reinforce any bigotry along those lines, like it does for Star Wars and Shadowrun.

the imperium is super inclusive. it doesn't care what or who you are, as long as you are human and work for the imperium. No goverment like that ever existed on earth.


Is just me or does one point not follow from the other?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 19:19:32


Post by: waefre_1


Karol wrote:
 Tokhuah wrote:
The Imperium is the equivalent of an internally inclusive white supremacists organization like the Nazi's.

But nazis were very externaly racialy inclusive, there were tatars, chechens,, ukrainians, turks, different types of nords, french, spanishs, people from the low countries asians like the Japanese and the Chinese till 1941. The imperium is nothing like that. It only mildly accepts the exists abhumans, and only if they are useful to the empire. If an adeptus branch deems them not useful they get burched.

Karol, do you genuinely believe that the various non-Germans in the Third Reich weren't "mildly accepts...and only if they are useful to the empire"? Because if so, you might want to find a better history teacher.
Yes, the Imperium isn't inclusive. But the setting is. The Imperium is routinely depicted as horribly bigoted (though not on this one issue). But the important thing is that the setting doesn't reinforce any bigotry along those lines, like it does for Star Wars and Shadowrun.

the imperium is super inclusive. it doesn't care what or who you are, as long as you are human and work for the imperium.

Individual worlds of the Imperium may differ, but in general the Imperium only does not care who you are (and then only to a certain extent). It very much cares what you are - psyker, mutant, xenos-lover, inconveniently curious, unwilling to blindly follow directions...any of these things are far more than enough for a death sentence, depending on where/when you find yourself.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 19:20:08


Post by: Karol


Why? One claim was that nazis were non inclusive, which is a not true. The other was that the imperium was not inclusive and it is litteraly all including as far as all humans goes.

The imperium to be like nazis would have to include xeno races as part of its structure. Which it does not do. On top of that nazis considered some of their enemies as kind of a equal to them. The imperium treats absolutly no non human race as equal to humans.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 19:33:37


Post by: Gert


Karol wrote:
But nazis were very externaly racialy inclusive, there were tatars, chechens,, ukrainians, turks, different types of nords, french, spanishs, people from the low countries asians like the Japanese and the Chinese till 1941. The imperium is nothing like that. It only mildly accepts the exists abhumans, and only if they are useful to the empire. If an adeptus branch deems them not useful they get burched.

The Nazis using a boat load of foreign soldiers wasn't because they were looking to have one big happy family Karol. The Nazis used them because they were desperate. Turns out invading the world with the manpower of exactly one country doesn't actually work, so they got a bunch of local fascists to join up, especially in the SS. The ideology still considered them impure. Just because the Nazis didn't genocide everyone they met, does not mean they were accepting of them.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 19:34:28


Post by: Karol



Karol, do you genuinely believe that the various non-Germans in the Third Reich weren't "mildly accepts...and only if they are useful to the empire"? Because if so, you might want to find a better history teacher.

Ukrainians were german allies since the second silesian war. Chechens, Turks and asians were fully accepted. There were other slavic nations or balkan or souther europe ones, like the hungarians, who were treated equal by the Reich law. There weren't just mildly accepted, they were fully accepted. A german men or woman could marry a Hungarian, and there were no law problems with it. On the other side if the same person would marry someone from the slavic territories who was not a volks or reich deustch, they could end up in prison or even in the camps. Depending on how the local goverment saw it and how close to the end of the war it was.

Individual worlds of the Imperium may differ, but in general the Imperium only does not care who you are (and then only to a certain extent). It very much cares what you are - psyker, mutant, xenos-lover, inconveniently curious, unwilling to blindly follow directions...any of these things are far more than enough for a death sentence, depending on where/when you find yourself.

Psykers are sanctioned, only unsanctioned ones suffer persecution, because it is illegal to be one or harbour one. I am not even going to comment on the xeno lover, but considering xeno nation are pro activly trying to destroy the humanity. siding with them would be like being polish or jewish and collaborating with the german occupation forces. Curiosity in the w40k setting kills you. You see demons, you get warp tainted. The more knowladge about forbidden things you have the higher chance of being corrupted. And this goes even true, for trained profesionals who know about the danger . Why does a hive workers need to know the deep secrets of the warp anyway? how does it help him work. he is suppose to work and help the war effort the empire is struggling under. And yeah, if the avarge citizent doesn't know what he is dealing with, then given them freedom is stupid. It would be like letting people decide in the matters of foreign policy, war, health etc without any knowladge in any of those.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 19:35:55


Post by: The_Real_Chris


Karol wrote:

the imperium is super inclusive. it doesn't care what or who you are, as long as you are human and work for the imperium. No goverment like that ever existed on earth.


Perhaps Cyrus the Great's empire?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 19:37:59


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Sim-Life wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Saying the imperium is inclusive is like saying the nazis or stalinists were inclusive. You’re welcome as long as you conform and fit in. They just swapped Jews, disabled people and homosexuals for aliens and mutants. The whole point of the satire of 40k was that it was an authoritarian society that tolerated no difference at all.


Founded on satire doesn't mean modern 40k is still the same, its not a satirical setting anymore no matter how far your imagination can stretch. Unless you actually think Jews and homosexuals are comparable to tyranids, Dark Eldar, necrons, orks, daemons etc. I don't think anything good will ever come of trying to be tolerant of a hive fleet or listening to the view point of a bloodthirster.


Thank you for this. Not sure I could’ve summed it up without delving into Politics.

Within the universe, the Witch, Alien and Mutant are threats. The Witch can lead to daemonic invasion. The mutant? The same, as just because you’ve a massive arm and four arses instead of a mouth, it doesn’t mean you’re not also a psyker. The Alien? Oh they’d be totally peaceful if it wasn’t for the Imperium’s biligerence…

And one could argue that if we look at human history, the surest way to get folk on your side is to set them against A.N.Other. The bigger the gathering, the more specific you need to be. It’s not nice. It’s not pleasant. I don’t even know and couldn’t say if it’s necessarily an intrinsic part of Human Nature, or just the easiest and most politically expedient way of getting enough folk moving in the direction you want them to.

With 40K, we also need to keep in mind the sheer scale of things. 40K has planetary systems where we have Nations. And kind of like the U.K. (look if I’m going to risk insulting a country it’s going to be my own, OK?) whilst the constituent parts of said Nation will of course have their own rivalries, they’re far more likely to gang up should another Nation start any trouble.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 19:46:11


Post by: Karol


 Gert wrote:

The Nazis using a boat load of foreign soldiers wasn't because they were looking to have one big happy family Karol. The Nazis used them because they were desperate. Turns out invading the world with the manpower of exactly one country doesn't actually work, so they got a bunch of local fascists to join up, especially in the SS. The ideology still considered them impure. Just because the Nazis didn't genocide everyone they met, does not mean they were accepting of them.

The cooperate with Italian Fasists since the 30s, with the spanish since the end of 20s. with the Chinese since 1926 and with Ukrainians since the 2ed silesian war which happened between 1774-1775, With the tatar, turkish and chechens since WWI. Non of them happened because Germany was in a tough spot, as most of them happned and started before WWII started. That did happen after Stalingrad fell, and was mostly not efficient to produce substential number of recruits.
I am not sure what joing the SS has to do with anything. You would be unable to join it directly even if you were german. All it took was having too low hight.
Also the german ideolgy only considered Jews etc "unpure" , even slavs were treated like that and their elimination was based on the states need. Poles , whose territory was suppose to be taken, were to be eliminated. Slovaks who were ally were not. What was considered impure was mixing of races. The imperium of man has nothing like. There are no orks or eldar who are considered okey as long as their live in their part of the galaxy.

And as the accepting goes, look at the marrige laws or who could join BDM or HJ, it shows what germans thought about being acceptable or not. And by the way it has nothing to do with nazis being nice or not, they were not nice. What they were was logical and keeping to the rules they set up. They were willing to set my part of the world on fire to follow that logic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The_Real_Chris 805796 11392364 wrote:Perhaps Cyrus the Great's empire?

For some nation groups, like the jews yes. But he was brutal, by contemporary standards, to other nations. For example Lydians even when they submited to him, he tried to wipe them out. Persian historians of course claim that persian armies and Cyrus were welcomed with bread and salt. But the burned cities seem to tell a different story. He really didn't like the babilonians either , he litteraly destroyed their society, by promoting lower masses against the citizents, priests and nobility.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 20:01:05


Post by: locarno24


 DominayTrix wrote:
Slaaneshi forces include some female/genderfluid marines as a blessing from Slaanesh. While space marines are members of the "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" club, custodes are never mentioned to be specifically male only and since they are grown/developed from infancy it is entirely possible they have some members that started as girls.


Whilst I would like it to be otherwise, GW has stated this in the Custodes Codex.

"It is known that all Custodians begin their lives as the infant sons of the noble houses of Terra."

You could claim this is an in-universe belief and wrong, but it's not in a story section but the 'narrator/background' stuff.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 20:04:31


Post by: RaptorusRex


Karol wrote:

Karol, do you genuinely believe that the various non-Germans in the Third Reich weren't "mildly accepts...and only if they are useful to the empire"? Because if so, you might want to find a better history teacher.

Ukrainians were german allies since the second silesian war. Chechens, Turks and asians were fully accepted. There were other slavic nations or balkan or souther europe ones, like the hungarians, who were treated equal by the Reich law. There weren't just mildly accepted, they were fully accepted. A german men or woman could marry a Hungarian, and there were no law problems with it. On the other side if the same person would marry someone from the slavic territories who was not a volks or reich deustch, they could end up in prison or even in the camps. Depending on how the local goverment saw it and how close to the end of the war it was.


-Ukrainians in the service of the Reich were largely from Galicia, a region latterly controlled by the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Himmler had to be talked into allowing the 14th Division's formation by Otto Wächter, and only Galicians were allowed into the Division as they were considered "Aryan". The term "Ukraine" was not allowed to be used, as that was politically problematic.
-Chechen revolts were largely autonomous, due to the long history of oppression by Russians.
-As late as '43, the question of Hungarian intermarriage was disputed.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 20:05:27


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


‘Member the thread title says no politics?

Oooooh, I ‘member.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 20:11:07


Post by: Karol


It is not politics it is history.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 20:14:47


Post by: Insectum7


locarno24 wrote:
 DominayTrix wrote:
Slaaneshi forces include some female/genderfluid marines as a blessing from Slaanesh. While space marines are members of the "NO GIRLS ALLOWED" club, custodes are never mentioned to be specifically male only and since they are grown/developed from infancy it is entirely possible they have some members that started as girls.


Whilst I would like it to be otherwise, GW has stated this in the Custodes Codex.

"It is known that all Custodians begin their lives as the infant sons of the noble houses of Terra."

You could claim this is an in-universe belief and wrong, but it's not in a story section but the 'narrator/background' stuff.
That's a big missed opportunity. :/


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 20:15:50


Post by: Gert


Karol wrote:
The cooperate with Italian Fasists since the 30s, with the spanish since the end of 20s. with the Chinese since 1926 and with Ukrainians since the 2ed silesian war which happened between 1774-1775, With the tatar, turkish and chechens since WWI. Non of them happened because Germany was in a tough spot, as most of them happned and started before WWII started. That did happen after Stalingrad fell, and was mostly not efficient to produce substential number of recruits.

Considering Nazi Germany only came about in 1933, it's pretty wild they somehow managed to cooperate with the Spanish and Chinese in the 1920s and the Ukrainians in the 1700s.
German cooperation and Nazi cooperation are not the same things. Weimar Germany sent advisors to the Chinese Republic in 1926, a state of affairs that continued with the German Reich until 1937 when the Japanese invaded China. The Nazis kept the deal going because they needed Chinese raw material for the planned conquest of Europe and because China was in a position to help defeat the USSR. All of this was thrown out in favour of Japan. At no point did the Nazi ideology change to say "Yeah the Chinese are actually equal to Aryans now".
And as for the various ethnic groups that resided in Russia during both the reign of the Tsar and the Soviets, as they saying goes "The enemy of my enemy, is useful as cannon fodder while out troops get their objectives".


I am not sure what joing the SS has to do with anything. You would be unable to join it directly even if you were german. All it took was having too low hight.
Also the german ideolgy only considered Jews etc "unpure" , even slavs were treated like that and their elimination was based on the states need. Poles , whose territory was suppose to be taken, were to be eliminated. Slovaks who were ally were not. What was considered impure was mixing of races. The imperium of man has nothing like. There are no orks or eldar who are considered okey as long as their live in their part of the galaxy.

The first batch of SS did fit the ideological requirements but even before WW2 began Himmler had to relax the regulations on who could join and by 1940, there were many foreign fighters in its ranks. Hitler expressely said he didn't want non-Aryans or even non-Germans in the SS but once again, you can't win a war with insanely strict recruiting measures and the manpower of one nation. These fighters were still considered racially inferior and yet they were recruited into the most hardcore Nazi group.
And just a heads up so you don't look really stupid in the future, the entire basis of Nazi ideology was that only Aryans were pure. Everyone else, even Germans, were inferior to the Aryans and they were all expected to be ruled by the "master race".

And as the accepting goes, look at the marrige laws or who could join BDM or HJ, it shows what germans thought about being acceptable or not. And by the way it has nothing to do with nazis being nice or not, they were not nice. What they were was logical and keeping to the rules they set up. They were willing to set my part of the world on fire to follow that logic.

Letting people join youth groups so they could be indoctrinated didn't mean those people weren't considered inferior by the Nazis. Only Aryans were "pure" in their eyes and every single other race was inferior.
As for the "rules" the Nazis followed, they got thrown out the window as soon as the war started because once again you can't invade the world with the manpower of one nation.
You don't get to pull the "My country got invaded by the Nazis" card if you don't actually know what you're on about.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 20:17:15


Post by: Karol


 RaptorusRex wrote:
-Ukrainians in the service of the Reich were largely from Galicia, a region latterly controlled by the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Himmler had to be talked into allowing the 14th Division's formation by Otto Wächter, and only Galicians were allowed into the Division as they were considered "Aryan". The term "Ukraine" was not allowed to be used, as that was politically problematic.

Ukrainian nationalists started working with germans/prussians at the time, against the Austrian, and later Austro-Hungerian goverment since 1774. That is way before the idea of national socialism existed in any part Germany. And the being unable to use the term ukrainian term is just plain wrong. When bishop Szeptycki, laying bed ridden and close to death was sending grecatholic priests to Waffen SS units he was litteraly talking about Ukraine and Ukrainian nationality.

-Chechen revolts were largely autonomous, due to the long history of oppression by Russians.

And? Poles and jews had the same history of oppresion by the Russians. So it hardly was trait specific to being accepted by the nationalists.


-As late as '43, the question of Hungarian intermarriage was disputed.

Which means it was not a problem for 10 years. And it was only considered a problem, because some people were using it to avoid military service or leave europe.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 20:19:56


Post by: Kya_Vess


 Insectum7 wrote:
^Just because I have the image handy in my gallery already.


But to the other part. Yeah sometimes the crowd can suck. I've seen that, and many, many years ago I was probably a member of the 'problem group', errors of youth and all.

But gosh, I've met some great people from all walks of life in the hobby, and in my experience the 'bad behavior crowd' is a tiny minority. The 40k (and gaming in general) player base is bigger than it ever was, and the solution to bad actors is hopefully just accessibility to a different group of actors. A different gaming club, or whatever.

Honestly it's kinda like a work environment. Some work environments are awful. But sometimes you also don't know that it can be better until you actually experience a better work environment.


Lol!!!! Who the heck would buy that, poor soul if they didn't know better...

But in my experience and travels it really depends on the store more then anything. Some stores are filled with just... gross. Some are a mix. Some are nothing but great people. Still waiting to find that fabled nazi everyone keeps saying exists though. So far the worst I get is just some weirdo telling me how my army plays, completely unaware he's about to be tabled. That or people who get hilariously tilted or try and cheat. Grr the cheaters... those are the ones we should really talk about.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 20:29:33


Post by: Karol


Considering Nazi Germany only came about in 1933, it's pretty wild they somehow managed to cooperate with the Spanish and Chinese in the 1920s and the Ukrainians in the 1700s.

Spanish. have you heard about the Condor legion. The German-Chinese cooperation was a thing from 1926 to 1943, till the goverment left mainliand China.
And Ukrainians worked with the Prussians, then Germans against Austrians, Austro Hungarians, Russians for 300+ years. Even the ribbentrop molotov packt had an addum about what the Abwehra controled ukrainian groups are suppose to do, or rather what they are suppose not to do aka not start acting in territories that were suppose to be soviets. But they kind of a didn't listen.

At no point did the Nazi ideology change to say "Yeah the Chinese are actually equal to Aryans now".

Hitler claimed that the civilisation of China is better and higher, then that germans created, specialy as they were older then those of germans.

And as for the various ethnic groups that resided in Russia during both the reign of the Tsar and the Soviets, as they saying goes "The enemy of my enemy, is useful as cannon fodder while out troops get their objectives".

Odd because in 1916 the German occupation army as the first thing it did, was to keep up Tsarist ban on polish schools, use of polish language etc. And Poles in Podlasie were no friends of Russians. Specialy post 1912 and the creation of Kholm Guberny.

The first batch of SS did fit the ideological requirements but even before WW2 began Himmler had to relax the regulations on who could join and by 1940, there were many foreign fighters in its ranks. Hitler expressely said he didn't want non-Aryans or even non-Germans in the SS but once again, you can't win a war with insanely strict recruiting measures and the manpower of one nation. These fighters were still considered racially inferior and yet they were recruited into the most hardcore Nazi group.
And just a heads up so you don't look really stupid in the future, the entire basis of Nazi ideology was that only Aryans were pure. Everyone else, even Germans, were inferior to the Aryans and they were all expected to be ruled by the "master race".

Okey, while I could disagree with some of this. what does it have to do with how the imperial societies and laws work? Because an ork can bend in to a pretzel and he will never be able to be part of the human imperial society. the whole aryan thing was too esoteric to considered serious.


Letting people join youth groups so they could be indoctrinated didn't mean those people weren't considered inferior by the Nazis. Only Aryans were "pure" in their eyes and every single other race was inferior.

Joing HJ and BDM was obligatory, but if the racial element was so crucial . The state wouldn't allow children from Kamerun or China to join the organisations.

You don't get to pull the "My country got invaded by the Nazis" card if you don't actually know what you're on about.

Considering you are wrong most of the time, I think I can.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 20:32:47


Post by: Insectum7


Kya_Vess wrote:
. . . . So far the worst I get is just some weirdo telling me how my army plays, completely unaware he's about to be tabled. That or people who get hilariously tilted or try and cheat. Grr the cheaters... those are the ones we should really talk about.

Hehe, oh come now. . . Those are like some of my favorite experiences

I haven't seen a really tilted player in a while, but I can recall getting someone to start throwing dice.

I still see "soft cheating" fairly often, unfortunately. "Long moves" seem shockingly common.



Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 20:40:54


Post by: Kya_Vess


 Insectum7 wrote:
Kya_Vess wrote:
. . . . So far the worst I get is just some weirdo telling me how my army plays, completely unaware he's about to be tabled. That or people who get hilariously tilted or try and cheat. Grr the cheaters... those are the ones we should really talk about.

Hehe, oh come now. . . Those are like some of my favorite experiences

I haven't seen a really tilted player in a while, but I can recall getting someone to start throwing dice.

I still see "soft cheating" fairly often, unfortunately. "Long moves" seem shockingly common.



The one thing I've noticed is that I get a lot worse then some of the other players is people assume they can cheat against me because I wont know any better. There's been a few tournaments were it was so blatant even the people next to these games were correcting my opponent. This was a huge issue in Magic too. Basically my options are getting cheated or trying to be a rules lawyer and being seen as, "that b1#$#" in the store. It's obnoxious.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 21:01:35


Post by: Insectum7


Kya_Vess wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Kya_Vess wrote:
. . . . So far the worst I get is just some weirdo telling me how my army plays, completely unaware he's about to be tabled. That or people who get hilariously tilted or try and cheat. Grr the cheaters... those are the ones we should really talk about.

Hehe, oh come now. . . Those are like some of my favorite experiences

I haven't seen a really tilted player in a while, but I can recall getting someone to start throwing dice.

I still see "soft cheating" fairly often, unfortunately. "Long moves" seem shockingly common.



The one thing I've noticed is that I get a lot worse then some of the other players is people assume they can cheat against me because I wont know any better. There's been a few tournaments were it was so blatant even the people next to these games were correcting my opponent. This was a huge issue in Magic too. Basically my options are getting cheated or trying to be a rules lawyer and being seen as, "that b1#$#" in the store. It's obnoxious.
Oh geez. Well that's gak to hear.

If it's any help at all I know which option my (awesome)wife would choose. She'd be calling it out no-nonsense style. The calculation is that some unpleasant individuals may resent you for it. But on the upside is that A: hopefully the behavior ceases or at least lessens, and B: the more quality people respect you more for it.

My sympathies, regardless.

. . .
Actually I just asked my wife, and she said "who the f*** cares if someone thinks you're a b****!". So there's a non-male take, haha.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 21:16:19


Post by: Gordon Shumway


Should we really be looking for good qualities in a universe specifically designed to be completely horrible (“grimdark”) and a satire of all the horribleness in the real world in the first place?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 21:41:20


Post by: Sim-Life


 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Should we really be looking for good qualities in a universe specifically designed to be completely horrible (“grimdark”) and a satire of all the horribleness in the real world in the first place?


The topic is about 40k being inclusive, not is it morally correct.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 21:42:50


Post by: Gert


Spoiler:
Karol wrote:
Spanish. have you heard about the Condor legion.

The Spanish Civil War didn't start until 1936, at which point Germany sent the Condor Legion. So no, not the 1920s.


The German-Chinese cooperation was a thing from 1926 to 1943, till the goverment left mainliand China.

Ended in 1941 when the Japanese invaded China and only existed as a continuation of policy from the Weimar Republic because the Nazis needed raw material for its armed forces.


And Ukrainians worked with the Prussians, then Germans against Austrians, Austro Hungarians, Russians for 300+ years. Even the ribbentrop molotov packt had an addum about what the Abwehra controled ukrainian groups are suppose to do, or rather what they are suppose not to do aka not start acting in territories that were suppose to be soviets. But they kind of a didn't listen.

Germans and Nazis aren't the same things, stop equating the two.


Hitler claimed that the civilisation of China is better and higher, then that germans created, specialy as they were older then those of germans.

Hitler said it in 1936 when the Nazis were still trading with the Chinese therefore it can be chalked up to diplomatic posturing. As soon as China stopped being friends they cut ties and put any Chinese or Chinese-Germans they could find into labour camps.


Odd because in 1916 the German occupation army as the first thing it did, was to keep up Tsarist ban on polish schools, use of polish language etc. And Poles in Podlasie were no friends of Russians. Specialy post 1912 and the creation of Kholm Guberny.

And the Nazis recruited hundreds of thousands into the SS and Wehrmacht from Eastern Europe to fight the Soviets. They still didn't regard them as equals in their ideology.


Okey, while I could disagree with some of this. what does it have to do with how the imperial societies and laws work? Because an ork can bend in to a pretzel and he will never be able to be part of the human imperial society. the whole aryan thing was too esoteric to considered serious.

You said the Nazis were inclusive. You were wrong. The Nazis had three classes of humans, the pure Aryans, the servants (literally everyone else), and the "subhuman".
As for the Imperium, there are many minor Xenos races living within the Imperium as "protectorates", the Imperium has cooperated and even set up trade agreements with the T'au, and Ork mercenaries are routinely hired by the Imperium. But like the Nazis, every single one of these is considered inferior to the primary race.


Joing HJ and BDM was obligatory, but if the racial element was so crucial . The state wouldn't allow children from Kamerun or China to join the organisations.

You're going to need to provide a source for that claim my guy because I have never seen that.

The long and short is you don't know half as much as you think you do Karol.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/01 22:01:28


Post by: Hecaton


 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Should we really be looking for good qualities in a universe specifically designed to be completely horrible (“grimdark”) and a satire of all the horribleness in the real world in the first place?


Well the Imperium is still gakky. But the Imperium has an extremely biased in-setting outlook; my main point is that the *omniscient* in-setting perspective is not ableist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
Karol wrote:
Spanish. have you heard about the Condor legion.

The Spanish Civil War didn't start until 1936, at which point Germany sent the Condor Legion. So no, not the 1920s.


The German-Chinese cooperation was a thing from 1926 to 1943, till the goverment left mainliand China.

Ended in 1941 when the Japanese invaded China and only existed as a continuation of policy from the Weimar Republic because the Nazis needed raw material for its armed forces.


And Ukrainians worked with the Prussians, then Germans against Austrians, Austro Hungarians, Russians for 300+ years. Even the ribbentrop molotov packt had an addum about what the Abwehra controled ukrainian groups are suppose to do, or rather what they are suppose not to do aka not start acting in territories that were suppose to be soviets. But they kind of a didn't listen.

Germans and Nazis aren't the same things, stop equating the two.


Hitler claimed that the civilisation of China is better and higher, then that germans created, specialy as they were older then those of germans.

Hitler said it in 1936 when the Nazis were still trading with the Chinese therefore it can be chalked up to diplomatic posturing. As soon as China stopped being friends they cut ties and put any Chinese or Chinese-Germans they could find into labour camps.


Odd because in 1916 the German occupation army as the first thing it did, was to keep up Tsarist ban on polish schools, use of polish language etc. And Poles in Podlasie were no friends of Russians. Specialy post 1912 and the creation of Kholm Guberny.

And the Nazis recruited hundreds of thousands into the SS and Wehrmacht from Eastern Europe to fight the Soviets. They still didn't regard them as equals in their ideology.


Okey, while I could disagree with some of this. what does it have to do with how the imperial societies and laws work? Because an ork can bend in to a pretzel and he will never be able to be part of the human imperial society. the whole aryan thing was too esoteric to considered serious.

You said the Nazis were inclusive. You were wrong. The Nazis had three classes of humans, the pure Aryans, the servants (literally everyone else), and the "subhuman".
As for the Imperium, there are many minor Xenos races living within the Imperium as "protectorates", the Imperium has cooperated and even set up trade agreements with the T'au, and Ork mercenaries are routinely hired by the Imperium. But like the Nazis, every single one of these is considered inferior to the primary race.


Joing HJ and BDM was obligatory, but if the racial element was so crucial . The state wouldn't allow children from Kamerun or China to join the organisations.

You're going to need to provide a source for that claim my guy because I have never seen that.

The long and short is you don't know half as much as you think you do Karol.


Just report him for Nazi apologetics and move on.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 01:00:20


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I think you can point to several threads on this forum where it clearly shows the inclusiveness problem is not in the game, but in the player base.

Until we don't let literal nazi's participate in Tournaments, and literal White Supremacists have GW sanctioned Influencer status, all the female Custodes and Brown skinned IG Colonels won't make a spit of difference.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 01:54:55


Post by: Insectum7


"Don't hate the game, hate the player."


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 09:16:45


Post by: Andykp


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you can point to several threads on this forum where it clearly shows the inclusiveness problem is not in the game, but in the player base.

Until we don't let literal nazi's participate in Tournaments, and literal White Supremacists have GW sanctioned Influencer status, all the female Custodes and Brown skinned IG Colonels won't make a spit of difference.


I agree, however, fixing those blatant examples are easy enough if people are willing. But fixing the more prevalent toxic community issues is the harder task that will take action from GW, and representation is a big part of that. While you can be accused of having sexual fetishes for having modeled female marines in your army or the swathe unpleasantness that was the trans-phobia thread, the whole community needs to work to make this a better place to be.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 10:18:47


Post by: Sim-Life


Why are people talking about how inclusive the community is when the topic is specifically about the setting? Can you just not pass up an opportunity to bitch about the community or something?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 11:03:24


Post by: Andykp


 Sim-Life wrote:
Why are people talking about how inclusive the community is when the topic is specifically about the setting? Can you just not pass up an opportunity to bitch about the community or something?


It’s not bitching when their are genuine issues.

As for the setting. The main faction literally do not tolerate and will kick or eliminate anyone or anything that goes against what they demand of them. They have a policy of genocide of anyone who’s not towing the line.

The setting isn’t inclusive.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 11:24:12


Post by: Sim-Life


Andykp wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Why are people talking about how inclusive the community is when the topic is specifically about the setting? Can you just not pass up an opportunity to bitch about the community or something?


It’s not bitching when their are genuine issues.

As for the setting. The main faction literally do not tolerate and will kick or eliminate anyone or anything that goes against what they demand of them. They have a policy of genocide of anyone who’s not towing the line.

The setting isn’t inclusive.


If it's a genuine issue start a different thread. Don't derail threads with something that specifically isn't what we're discussing.

Also as previously stated most races in the setting don't care what you do as an individual (if you're allowed that luxury) unless its something that contravenes basic issues a race or Empire involved in a galactic scale war would generally be concerned about and even then several of the more civilised races like T'au, Eldar are diplomatically involved with the Imperium and generally tolerated as long as they don't do something that might kick off a fight. The Imperium doesn't care if its citizens are transgendered, disabled or whatever. Just pay your tithe and don't grow extra heads or worship anything with more than 4 limbs and they don't give a gak what you do with your free time.

You say that the Imperium doesn't tolerate anything that goes against them but what does that mean? As I said do you think its unfair that planetary governors don't sit down and hear out the concerns of Genestealer Magii or try to see the positives about being turned into nutritional paste by aliens? Or that the population of an agri-world should feel some kind of guilt for colonizing a tomb world (the fact that it's been dormant for millions of years is irrelevant, check your mortal flesh privilege)? Applying OUR standards of inclusivity to a faction that has been at war for literally thousands of years with incredibly hostile forces is a fools errand. It's honestly kind of surprising that the Imperium is as tolerant of xenos as it is.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 11:24:46


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Define "inclusive".
If you mean in terms of everyone getting along like in Star Trek, well, no because the setting was designed to be the opposite of star trek. Rather than an enlightened, utopian future where petty human vices and grievances are outdated, we have a violent, dystopian future where the worse parts of humanity are put on display and encouraged.

If you mean in terms of variations of themes and factions, yes. GW ripped off pretty much every setting and sci-fi trope out there.

If you mean in terms of humans also yes, because the Imperium doesn't care what phenotype or chromosomes you have, as long as you do what you're told and not have any deformity that could be construed as chaotic.

If you mean in terms of ideas or freedoms of expression, lol no. The Imperium doesn't like that because it conflicts with the above point. "Do what you're told" and "believe and say what you want" tend not to mix. Poor Voltaire wouldn't last 3 seconds in the Imperium.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 11:26:22


Post by: SemperMortis


Andykp wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Why are people talking about how inclusive the community is when the topic is specifically about the setting? Can you just not pass up an opportunity to bitch about the community or something?


It’s not bitching when their are genuine issues.

As for the setting. The main faction literally do not tolerate and will kick or eliminate anyone or anything that goes against what they demand of them. They have a policy of genocide of anyone who’s not towing the line.

The setting isn’t inclusive.


Its a Sci-fi dystopian setting where humanity faces annihilation on all fronts from a host of enemies who include bugs, space fungus, BDSM elves and a bunch of others, and your biggest complaint is that the setting isn't inclusive and the fanbase is toxic.....Yeah, pretty sure the setting and the fanbase aren't the problem in this scenario Andy.

And as far as the fanbase being toxic....I've been to a hundred if not more Game stores, i've played in tournaments at the ITC/GT level and all the way down to the beer league free for all where we had a genius designer incorporate a giant squig bird into a game (was AWESOME!) i've met thousands of players....I have yet to meet a single one of them who was toxic or a white supremacist or a misogynist or any other buzz word you feel like using. In fact, my biggest complaint would be the toxic nature of their body odor

To be very blunt here, if you don't like the dystopian setting created over decades by the company.....find a new game, because most if not all of us enjoy the world they have created. And no, its not because we are all secretly nazi's or more buzzwords, its because its a FAKE SETTING and we find it fun to fight our little painted army men in.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 11:39:52


Post by: a_typical_hero


Andykp wrote:
It’s not bitching when their are genuine issues.

It is still off-topic, though. If you feel the need to discuss the state of the community, feel free to open another thread about it.

Andykp wrote:
As for the setting. The main faction literally do not tolerate and will kick or eliminate anyone or anything that goes against what they demand of them. They have a policy of genocide of anyone who’s not towing the line.

The setting isn’t inclusive.

While the fine print is left to each planetary governor, the Imperial Creed itself is pretty open to anything that can be considered a stable human. We are not talking about "hey that guy is gay so he won't be promoted to higher ranks". It's "hey that guy can create explosions when he sneezes and is a potential portal for a demon invasion, put a hole in his head". If you want to, there is totally room in the setting for your shining democratic planet where life is pretty decent compared to the rest of the galaxy, where people are a little bit less xenophobic and the planetary governor is doing some off the record trading with the nearby Xenos. The setting is open for that.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 13:00:34


Post by: steelhead177th


you know you have to be a part of the National Socialist party to be an actual Not zi. That word doesn't mean whatever you want it to. You don't seem to understand what a white supprems is either. Every person has an ingroup preference. That is part of being human. You don't get to sling mud at people because their's is different then yours.

SemperMortis is right on the money.
And the guard takes all in, unless the person is a danger to all around them.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 13:48:59


Post by: Sim-Life


a_typical_hero wrote:
Andykp wrote:
It’s not bitching when their are genuine issues.

It is still off-topic, though. If you feel the need to discuss the state of the community, feel free to open another thread about it.

Andykp wrote:
As for the setting. The main faction literally do not tolerate and will kick or eliminate anyone or anything that goes against what they demand of them. They have a policy of genocide of anyone who’s not towing the line.

The setting isn’t inclusive.

While the fine print is left to each planetary governor, the Imperial Creed itself is pretty open to anything that can be considered a stable human. We are not talking about "hey that guy is gay so he won't be promoted to higher ranks". It's "hey that guy can create explosions when he sneezes and is a potential portal for a demon invasion, put a hole in his head". If you want to, there is totally room in the setting for your shining democratic planet where life is pretty decent compared to the rest of the galaxy, where people are a little bit less xenophobic and the planetary governor is doing some off the record trading with the nearby Xenos. The setting is open for that.


Isn't the Imperium pretty much willing to turn a blind eye to trading with xenos as long as it's not overtly against the Imperium's interests. That's basically what a rogue trader is after all.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 14:13:09


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Ok, feth it. Severina Raine merely exists. There, 40k is now inclusive!


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 14:59:38


Post by: a_typical_hero


 Sim-Life wrote:
That's basically what a rogue trader is after all.

Exactly what they are. I didn't think about them when I replied earlier.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, feth it. Severina Raine merely exists. There, 40k is now inclusive!

This discussion is about the setting, not the models. There is no official lore to my knowledge that forbids any fit human to join the Guard, regardless of gender, orientation, skin, ... and so on.
Sisters as well as female Eldar models have existed ever since 2nd edition. I don't see your point in that regards, either.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 17:56:05


Post by: Cyel


Considering the fact that the mentality of 40k Imperium is heavily based on Middle Ages, which was a real low point in humanity's morals and ethics, I'd say expecting 21st century views on human rights there is very optimistic. I think prejudice, in-group thinking, bigotry and xenophoby are the everyday reality throughout the Imperium and the only reason why we don't have even more of it in the fluff is that it mostly describes warzones not everyday life.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 18:05:41


Post by: Dai


Cant see this thread going anywhere good from this point.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 20:00:45


Post by: Sim-Life


Cyel wrote:
Considering the fact that the mentality of 40k Imperium is heavily based on Middle Ages, which was a real low point in humanity's morals and ethics, I'd say expecting 21st century views on human rights there is very optimistic. I think prejudice, in-group thinking, bigotry and xenophoby are the everyday reality throughout the Imperium and the only reason why we don't have even more of it in the fluff is that it mostly describes warzones not everyday life.


It's not very accurate then since there are many women in high positions of power like the Inquisition, the High Lords of Terra (not just the SoB one, the current Inquisitorial and Administratum representatives are women, the Admiral of the Imperial Navy was also a woman though shes dead now and I don't know who replaced her). So yeah, "heavily based on" in terms of aesthetic definitly, feudalistic in some ways sure, but socially the Imperium is likely pretty inclusive.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 20:15:17


Post by: CadianSgtBob


steelhead177th wrote:
you know you have to be a part of the National Socialist party to be an actual Not zi.


"This guy parading around with a swastika flag and talking about how the Jews need to be exterminated isn't technically a member of the 1930s-1940s political party and isn't even in Germany! Definitely not a Nazi!"

GTFO with your Nazi apologism.

You don't get to sling mud at people because their's is different then yours.


I absolutely do when your "ingroup preference" is defined by excluding women, non-white people, etc.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
I have yet to meet a single one of them who was toxic or a white supremacist or a misogynist or any other buzz word you feel like using.


Either you've been really fortunate or haven't been paying attention. Here's a picture of the guy who provoked the "warhammer is not for you" letter from GW:



And before you say this was just one guy note that the TO allowed him to stay even after people complained and gave them match losses for refusing to play against him.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 20:25:18


Post by: Sim-Life


CadianSgtBob wrote:
steelhead177th wrote:
you know you have to be a part of the National Socialist party to be an actual Not zi.

And before you say this was just one guy note that the TO allowed him to stay even after people complained and gave them match losses for refusing to play against him.


...so...two guys then?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 20:28:47


Post by: CadianSgtBob


 Sim-Life wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
steelhead177th wrote:
you know you have to be a part of the National Socialist party to be an actual Not zi.

And before you say this was just one guy note that the TO allowed him to stay even after people complained and gave them match losses for refusing to play against him.


...so...two guys then?


More than that. A TO doesn't make that kind of ruling without trusting that the community will back them and it won't be an instant death sentence to their ability to run future events. And Nazi dude doesn't show up wearing Nazi symbols unless he feels safe at the event instead of worrying about getting a well-deserved beating behind the store while the cameras all happen to be down for maintenance.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 20:33:10


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Really?

There was the entire Arch Incident, then there was the Totenkomph on the Imperial Knight by Reece, then there was the fact that QAnon made the EoM their personal meme, because the Imperial beliefs so closely matched their own, then you have this total clown show.

Not to mention the countless examples of bigotry and racism that goes on in THIS GAME'S SETTING. This game is literally tied to some of the worst fanbois in the entire gaming culture, and I'll include the Smash FGC pedo crowd in that. 40k has tried very hard to crawl towards a better fan base for the last 5-10 years, and people like this clown are holding it back.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 20:51:40


Post by: Sim-Life


Why is it so hard for people to understand the difference between the words "setting" and "community"?
Spoiler:

Also I like the fact that people are focusing on the nazi guy but not the fact that THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY REFUSED TO PLAY AGAINST HIM because of it. So which is it?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 21:16:16


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


CadianSgtBob wrote:

Either you've been really fortunate or haven't been paying attention.

If by "really fortunate" you just mean average.
Have you considered that nazi encounters are actually a rare and unfortunate occurrence rather than the standard?

Like shark attacks. Not everyone who swims get eaten by a shark. But when they do happen, it gets everyone's attention.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 21:34:43


Post by: RealAndTrue


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you can point to several threads on this forum where it clearly shows the inclusiveness problem is not in the game, but in the player base.

Until we don't let literal nazi's participate in Tournaments, and literal White Supremacists have GW sanctioned Influencer status, all the female Custodes and Brown skinned IG Colonels won't make a spit of difference.


So, here's the deal. We are going to fight against all forms of Communism and Leftism. You sound like some BLM or Antifa supporter, and we aren't going to EVER tolerate those kinds of players in our community. At our shop, we ran several of those types off, and we will continue to do so. That's just how it is.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 21:38:45


Post by: CadianSgtBob


RealAndTrue wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you can point to several threads on this forum where it clearly shows the inclusiveness problem is not in the game, but in the player base.

Until we don't let literal nazi's participate in Tournaments, and literal White Supremacists have GW sanctioned Influencer status, all the female Custodes and Brown skinned IG Colonels won't make a spit of difference.


So, here's the deal. We are going to fight against all forms of Communism and Leftism. You sound like some BLM or Antifa supporter, and we aren't going to EVER tolerate those kinds of players in our community. At our shop, we ran several of those types off, and we will continue to do so. That's just how it is.


Two posts, both idiotic right-wing trolling, nothing to say about gaming. I hope your main account also gets banned.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 21:41:59


Post by: Hecaton


Andykp wrote:
[While you can be accused of having sexual fetishes for having modeled female marines in your army


Have you been to 4chan? Every pro-female SM poster there is deep on the "I want a muscular woman to dominate me" kink. It's, uh... problematic, shall we say.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 21:42:28


Post by: CadianSgtBob


 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
If by "really fortunate" you just mean average.
Have you considered that nazi encounters are actually a rare and unfortunate occurrence rather than the standard?

Like shark attacks. Not everyone who swims get eaten by a shark. But when they do happen, it gets everyone's attention.


Actual flag-waving Nazis are relatively rare, although remember that one of the major community "personalities" was a shameless white supremacist and it took years for people to finally acknowledge it and stop saying "but he has such good lore videos". And what's far more common is obnoxious racists, sexists, etc. It's the kind of people who joke about raping SoB to death with a power fist or "just ask questions" about why black people are so much more violent, etc.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 21:42:35


Post by: Hecaton


Andykp wrote:
As for the setting. The main faction literally do not tolerate and will kick or eliminate anyone or anything that goes against what they demand of them. They have a policy of genocide of anyone who’s not towing the line.

The setting isn’t inclusive.


These two things don't follow from each other. The Imperium is portrayed as *wrong* about, well, just about everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Define "inclusive".


In that the setting doesn't take the objective tack that people (in this case physically disabled people) are objectively lesser than those who aren't physically disabled. This doesn't necessarily match up with whether or not characters in the setting believe that, though.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 21:43:41


Post by: RealAndTrue


CadianSgtBob wrote:
RealAndTrue wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you can point to several threads on this forum where it clearly shows the inclusiveness problem is not in the game, but in the player base.

Until we don't let literal nazi's participate in Tournaments, and literal White Supremacists have GW sanctioned Influencer status, all the female Custodes and Brown skinned IG Colonels won't make a spit of difference.


So, here's the deal. We are going to fight against all forms of Communism and Leftism. You sound like some BLM or Antifa supporter, and we aren't going to EVER tolerate those kinds of players in our community. At our shop, we ran several of those types off, and we will continue to do so. That's just how it is.


Two posts, both idiotic right-wing trolling, nothing to say about gaming. I hope your main account also gets banned.


So, your solution to people fighting back against literal enemies of the state is to ban them? Imagine thinking that will solve anything or do anything other than radicalize even more people against the Left. Imagine how naive a person must be to think that. That's why it's a war, I suppose. 40k is not meant to be inclusive. This entire thread is cancer.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 21:44:49


Post by: Hecaton


a_typical_hero wrote:
While the fine print is left to each planetary governor, the Imperial Creed itself is pretty open to anything that can be considered a stable human.


Nah, people who are born with a cleft lip or whatever are killed at birth, as per policy. The Imperium is a big fan of infanticide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
steelhead177th wrote:
you know you have to be a part of the National Socialist party to be an actual Not zi. That word doesn't mean whatever you want it to. You don't seem to understand what a white supprems is either. Every person has an ingroup preference. That is part of being human. You don't get to sling mud at people because their's is different then yours.


No, not everyone instinctively hates people who are different from them. That's a unique moral deficiency to *you*.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a_typical_hero wrote:

This discussion is about the setting, not the models. There is no official lore to my knowledge that forbids any fit human to join the Guard, regardless of gender, orientation, skin, ... and so on.


Individual planets might, though. Like the Vostroyans only send men, there are planets mentioned in the IG codex that only send women, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CadianSgtBob wrote:


More than that. A TO doesn't make that kind of ruling without trusting that the community will back them and it won't be an instant death sentence to their ability to run future events. And Nazi dude doesn't show up wearing Nazi symbols unless he feels safe at the event instead of worrying about getting a well-deserved beating behind the store while the cameras all happen to be down for maintenance.


That kind of gak definitely wouldn't fly in the US; Spain obviously has a more complicated history with fascism than the US does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Totenkomph on the Imperial Knight by Reece


Death's head isn't a Nazi symbol though?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
RealAndTrue wrote:

So, here's the deal. We are going to fight against all forms of Communism and Leftism. You sound like some BLM or Antifa supporter, and we aren't going to EVER tolerate those kinds of players in our community. At our shop, we ran several of those types off, and we will continue to do so. That's just how it is.


#thathappened


Automatically Appended Next Post:
RealAndTrue wrote:

So, your solution to people fighting back against literal enemies of the state is to ban them? Imagine thinking that will solve anything or do anything other than radicalize even more people against the Left. Imagine how naive a person must be to think that. That's why it's a war, I suppose. 40k is not meant to be inclusive. This entire thread is cancer.


"Literal armies of the state"? Isn't that every army? Are you stupid or are you just high?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 21:51:20


Post by: BertBert


That's a bit on the nose, Hecaton. I appreciate the sentiment though.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 21:58:30


Post by: CadianSgtBob


RealAndTrue wrote:
So, your solution to people fighting back against literal enemies of the state is to ban them? Imagine thinking that will solve anything or do anything other than radicalize even more people against the Left. Imagine how naive a person must be to think that. That's why it's a war, I suppose. 40k is not meant to be inclusive. This entire thread is cancer.


You are either delusional or trolling and I hope your main account gets banned too.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:00:53


Post by: Hecaton


CadianSgtBob wrote:
RealAndTrue wrote:
So, your solution to people fighting back against literal enemies of the state is to ban them? Imagine thinking that will solve anything or do anything other than radicalize even more people against the Left. Imagine how naive a person must be to think that. That's why it's a war, I suppose. 40k is not meant to be inclusive. This entire thread is cancer.


You are either delusional or trolling and I hope your main account gets banned too.


You reported it as a sock puppet account, right? I think mods can look at IPs. We should probably contact one of the them directly.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:04:34


Post by: steelhead177th




I feel pity if you get hurt reading the truth. That must make existence hard and miserable, more then it already is.

Ingroup preferences are all across the board, race, creed, colour and it seems that there are some who's eyes are deliberately closed.

Gatekeeping troublesome individuals who cause nothing but strife and division is the only way.

Read some history, if you dare. Learn if you can.

Thank you for proving me correct by your actions. Thank you for advocating for social violence. ❤️


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:05:23


Post by: CadianSgtBob


steelhead177th wrote:


I feel pity if you get hurt reading the truth. That must make existence hard and miserable, more then it already is.

Ingroup preferences are all across the board, race, creed, colour and it seems that there are some who's eyes are deliberately closed.

Gatekeeping troublesome individuals who cause nothing but strife and division is the only way.

Read some history, if you dare. Learn if you can.

Thank you for proving me correct by your actions. Thank you for advocating for social violence. ❤️


Oh look, I think we found whose sock puppet account it is.

PS: you can still GTFO with your transphobia and Nazi apologism, you are not welcome in this community.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:28:35


Post by: a_typical_hero


Guys, please. Enough with the off topic stuff.
If you disagree that strongly with a poster, report it to a mod via the yellow button to your right.

I did so hopefully the thread gets cleaned up.

Hecaton wrote:
Nah, people who are born with a cleft lip or whatever are killed at birth, as per policy. The Imperium is a big fan of infanticide.

Is there a source for this?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:28:37


Post by: Sim-Life


Hecaton wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
While the fine print is left to each planetary governor, the Imperial Creed itself is pretty open to anything that can be considered a stable human.


Nah, people who are born with a cleft lip or whatever are killed at birth, as per policy. The Imperium is a big fan of infanticide.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
a_typical_hero wrote:

This discussion is about the setting, not the models. There is no official lore to my knowledge that forbids any fit human to join the Guard, regardless of gender, orientation, skin, ... and so on.


Individual planets might, though. Like the Vostroyans only send men, there are planets mentioned in the IG codex that only send women, etc.


These two things are on a planet by planet basis though. Worlds closer to the Eye (or where the Eye was, I don't remember if it's still a thing since the rift opened) might execute deformed children at birth, but backwater agri-worlds likely don't. Also as someone pointed out earlier in the thread that planetary traditions of single sex units are superseded by merging platoons to bring numbers back up. The individual planets might care about making their tithe single sex but the Guard as an organisation certainly doesn't care to respect exclusionary policies if it gets in the way of their logistics.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:35:39


Post by: Hecaton


a_typical_hero wrote:

Is there a source for this?


Yeah, I've posted it here before - it's in the "Rogue Trader" boxed set for KT, where it goes into detail as to what mutation is. It includes people who are exposed to toxic chemicals, not just Warp energies, and it says that basically all of them are killed at birth, unless they hide (or presumably are killed by their parents).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Worlds closer to the Eye (or where the Eye was, I don't remember if it's still a thing since the rift opened) might execute deformed children at birth, but backwater agri-worlds likely don't.


No, it's Imperium policy the galaxy through and the Arbites will enforce it if a planetary government fails to.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:38:57


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Hecaton wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:

Is there a source for this?


Yeah, I've posted it here before - it's in the "Rogue Trader" boxed set for KT, where it goes into detail as to what mutation is. It includes people who are exposed to toxic chemicals, not just Warp energies, and it says that basically all of them are killed at birth, unless they hide (or presumably are killed by their parents).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Worlds closer to the Eye (or where the Eye was, I don't remember if it's still a thing since the rift opened) might execute deformed children at birth, but backwater agri-worlds likely don't.


No, it's Imperium policy the galaxy through and the Arbites will enforce it if a planetary government fails to.

To play devil's advocate, mutations caused by exposure to toxic chemicals and mutations caused by the warp might be very similar in appearance. Due to the high risk of warp borne mutations, it may have been deemed prudent to cull those toxic mutations as well, just in case they might actually be demonic in origin.

Which is still really messed up, mind you, but you can see the logic behind it.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:43:23


Post by: RealAndTrue


CadianSgtBob wrote:


Oh look, I think we found whose sock puppet account it is.

PS: you can still GTFO with your transphobia and Nazi apologism, you are not welcome in this community.


It's you who is not welcome. Cope and seethe. Imagine thinking only one person is right-wing in this hobby.

We literally threw out a few Antifa/BLM supporters from our store and banned them. We don't tolerate Leftists, here, and we never will. Want to talk about the hobby or continue this?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:45:57


Post by: CadianSgtBob


RealAndTrue wrote:
It's you who is not welcome. Cope and seethe. Imagine thinking only one person is right-wing in this hobby.

We literally threw out a few Antifa/BLM supporters from our store and banned them. We don't tolerate Leftists, here, and we never will. Want to talk about the hobby or continue this?


Thank you for demonstrating my points very nicely. I'll be sure to save links to your posts for the next time someone says "people like that don't really exist, everyone I've ever met behaves just fine".


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:52:03


Post by: RealAndTrue


CadianSgtBob wrote:
RealAndTrue wrote:
It's you who is not welcome. Cope and seethe. Imagine thinking only one person is right-wing in this hobby.

We literally threw out a few Antifa/BLM supporters from our store and banned them. We don't tolerate Leftists, here, and we never will. Want to talk about the hobby or continue this?


Thank you for demonstrating my points very nicely. I'll be sure to save links to your posts for the next time someone says "people like that don't really exist, everyone I've ever met behaves just fine".


We know all about people like you. That's why we keep a very sharp eye out.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:52:39


Post by: Blndmage


RealAndTrue wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:


Oh look, I think we found whose sock puppet account it is.

PS: you can still GTFO with your transphobia and Nazi apologism, you are not welcome in this community.


It's you who is not welcome. Cope and seethe. Imagine thinking only one person is right-wing in this hobby.

We literally threw out a few Antifa/BLM supporters from our store and banned them. We don't tolerate Leftists, here, and we never will. Want to talk about the hobby or continue this?


This right here is why the 40k community is terrifying for LGBTQ2SIA+ folks.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:57:19


Post by: RealAndTrue


Antifa/BLM and the group you mentioned above is why children are afraid to enter the hobby. You have it totally backward.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 22:59:43


Post by: Blndmage


RealAndTrue wrote:
Antifa/BLM and the group you mentioned above is why children are afraid to enter the hobby. You have it totally backward.


Who are you responding to, what group do you mean?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:01:06


Post by: Sim-Life


I actually was enjoying the thread because its an interesting discussion but thanks to all the people who can't separate fiction from reality for gaking it up. I'm sure it'll be locked when a mod finally wakes up.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:02:59


Post by: CadianSgtBob


RealAndTrue wrote:
We know all about people like you. That's why we keep a very sharp eye out.


Oh noes, what will you do with that eye? Am I supposed to be afraid of 13 year old 4chan posters and a bunch of military LARPers who are too fat to get their gear to fit properly? Or are you just going to turn your local store into a toxic hellscape and drive all the normal people out?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:03:20


Post by: RealAndTrue


 Sim-Life wrote:
I actually was enjoying the thread because its an interesting discussion but thanks to all the people who can't separate fiction from reality for gaking it up. I'm sure it'll be locked when a mod finally wakes up.


Let's hope so. Like I said, this thread is cancer.

Some people really want a war. That's why we don't tolerate those kinds here. We take care of them.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:05:31


Post by: Blndmage


RealAndTrue wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I actually was enjoying the thread because its an interesting discussion but thanks to all the people who can't separate fiction from reality for gaking it up. I'm sure it'll be locked when a mod finally wakes up.


Let's hope so. Like I said, this thread is cancer.

Some people really want a war. That's why we don't tolerate those kinds here. We take care of them.


*Has cancer*
This thread isn't cancer, it's shedding light on the cancerous members of the community.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:13:59


Post by: CadianSgtBob


RealAndTrue wrote:
Mommy says I'm too fat to join the army so I LARP about it on the internet.


Cool story bro.



Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:26:00


Post by: RealAndTrue


 Blndmage wrote:
RealAndTrue wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I actually was enjoying the thread because its an interesting discussion but thanks to all the people who can't separate fiction from reality for gaking it up. I'm sure it'll be locked when a mod finally wakes up.


Let's hope so. Like I said, this thread is cancer.

Some people really want a war. That's why we don't tolerate those kinds here. We take care of them.


*Has cancer*
This thread isn't cancer, it's shedding light on the cancerous members of the community.


No, it's what I said the first time. This thread is cancer and exposes all the crazy Leftists we have already defeated and will continue to defeat. It's what we do.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:29:12


Post by: CadianSgtBob


RealAndTrue wrote:
I screamed a racial slur at a communist on CoD once! Maybe mommy will buy me the next CoD for my 14th birthday so I can fight more leftists!


Cool story bro.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:31:57


Post by: RealAndTrue


CadianSgtBob wrote:
RealAndTrue wrote:
I screamed a racial slur at a communist on CoD once! Maybe mommy will buy me the next CoD for my 14th birthday so I can fight more leftists!


Cool story bro.


Imagine being you.



Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:32:35


Post by: Blndmage


RealAndTrue wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
RealAndTrue wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I actually was enjoying the thread because its an interesting discussion but thanks to all the people who can't separate fiction from reality for gaking it up. I'm sure it'll be locked when a mod finally wakes up.


Let's hope so. Like I said, this thread is cancer.

Some people really want a war. That's why we don't tolerate those kinds here. We take care of them.


*Has cancer*
This thread isn't cancer, it's shedding light on the cancerous members of the community.


No, it's what I said the first time. This thread is cancer and exposes all the crazy Leftists we have already defeated and will continue to defeat. It's what we do.


You literally just proved my point.
You are cancerous.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:33:36


Post by: RealAndTrue


 Blndmage wrote:
RealAndTrue wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
RealAndTrue wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I actually was enjoying the thread because its an interesting discussion but thanks to all the people who can't separate fiction from reality for gaking it up. I'm sure it'll be locked when a mod finally wakes up.


Let's hope so. Like I said, this thread is cancer.

Some people really want a war. That's why we don't tolerate those kinds here. We take care of them.


*Has cancer*
This thread isn't cancer, it's shedding light on the cancerous members of the community.


No, it's what I said the first time. This thread is cancer and exposes all the crazy Leftists we have already defeated and will continue to defeat. It's what we do.


You literally just proved my point.
You are cancerous.


I'm not the one who needs to use pronouns in my bio to prove what gender I am.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:38:29


Post by: CadianSgtBob


RealAndTrue wrote:
I don't need pronouns! Mommy says my dick is cute so anyone who says I'm not a man is a lying antifa BLM troll.


Cool story bro.

But seriously, you really need to spend less time LARPing on 4chan and more time learning to be a functioning adult. Nobody in the real world is impressed by your empty boasting.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:44:43


Post by: Blndmage


RealAndTrue wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
RealAndTrue wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
RealAndTrue wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
I actually was enjoying the thread because its an interesting discussion but thanks to all the people who can't separate fiction from reality for gaking it up. I'm sure it'll be locked when a mod finally wakes up.


Let's hope so. Like I said, this thread is cancer.

Some people really want a war. That's why we don't tolerate those kinds here. We take care of them.


*Has cancer*
This thread isn't cancer, it's shedding light on the cancerous members of the community.


No, it's what I said the first time. This thread is cancer and exposes all the crazy Leftists we have already defeated and will continue to defeat. It's what we do.


You literally just proved my point.
You are cancerous.


I'm not the one who needs to use pronouns in my bio to prove what gender I am.


I'll make a donation to the local Pride society in your name to commemorate your faith in us.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/02 23:57:30


Post by: Hecaton


 Blndmage wrote:


This right here is why the 40k community is terrifying for LGBTQ2SIA+ folks.


Good odds that they're just a troll given they're a sockpuppet account.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/03 00:10:18


Post by: Blndmage


Hecaton wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:


This right here is why the 40k community is terrifying for LGBTQ2SIA+ folks.


Good odds that they're just a troll given they're a sockpuppey account.


It seriously doesn't matter if they are or not. We can't risk that they are.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/03 00:23:07


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


Hey guys! I just stole all his guns while he was posting. Now I'm giving them all boys names and making them get GAY MARRIED!!! Who wants to put pretty pink hats on all his guns while his Dear leader thirsts for his Daughter?

And yes, I have my giant gay steam roller, and it's coming for you.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/03 02:44:03


Post by: Hecaton


 Blndmage wrote:

It seriously doesn't matter if they are or not. We can't risk that they are.


Risk what exactly? Even odds the person behind it is a right-wing nutjob, just a troll looking for a rise out of people, *or* someone who thinks that there are two many right-wing nutjobs in the fanbase and it looking to "prove" it through using a sockpuppet account.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/03 02:56:54


Post by: CadianSgtBob


Hecaton wrote:
Risk what exactly? Even odds the person behind it is a right-wing nutjob, just a troll looking for a rise out of people, *or* someone who thinks that there are two many right-wing nutjobs in the fanbase and it looking to "prove" it through using a sockpuppet account.


Doxing, harassment, etc. Trolls like this have an unfortunate habit of taking things offline if they find an opening.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/03 03:06:17


Post by: TheBestBucketHead


This guy is a troll, but is definitely harmless. It was obvious since his first few posts. And please don't use him as proof that the hobby is full of alt right idiots or nazis. People like trolling. The fact that anyone takes him seriously is odd, considering I see this attitude all the time in video games. Just trying to provoke people for a laugh. The best thing to do is ignore and report them.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/03 03:37:10


Post by: Blndmage


Ok, but don't down play the risk that we face.

I can't risk our local FLGSs because both are frequented by transphobes who have actively threatened me if I step into the stores, with the owners backing the transphobes after telling me they had my back.

I HAVE to worry. As do lots of LGBT+ folks.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/03 03:40:25


Post by: CadianSgtBob


And let's not forget that "it's just a joke" is a well established tactic of the alt-right and 4chan Nazi types. Say something offensive, and then if anyone calls you on it it's "just a joke" and people are being too sensitive. It's a win/win for them, they get to downplay the extremism of their views and simultaneously present the normal people as unreasonable zealots. And it's also a well established tactic to get people starting down the rabbit hole by "jokes", then bringing them deeper into the movement once they've normalized the humor. Don't buy that nonsense excuse, people who aren't complete donkey-caves don't make jokes about this stuff.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/03 03:46:00


Post by: Hecaton


CadianSgtBob wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
Risk what exactly? Even odds the person behind it is a right-wing nutjob, just a troll looking for a rise out of people, *or* someone who thinks that there are two many right-wing nutjobs in the fanbase and it looking to "prove" it through using a sockpuppet account.


Doxing, harassment, etc. Trolls like this have an unfortunate habit of taking things offline if they find an opening.


Yes but... what exactly is being risked that isn't already?


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/03 03:52:56


Post by: TheBestBucketHead


I agree that they're an donkey-cave, and that's no excuse, but this is a case of them just being an donkey-cave troll. If people in your local areas are homophobic, transphobic, racist, or any kind of ist or phobic, you're definitely in a worse position and potentially in danger. But let's not lump this kind of stupidity in with actual racists, homophobes, etc.. And if you mean offensive humor, offensive humor is great. It just needs to be done well.

Blindmage, I'm sympathetic. I'm a gay man myself, with a transgender girlfriend. I have family that is extremely racist and homophobic, and so does she. Your FLGS definitely needs to have more Friendly in your Local Game Store. It's okay to be cautious, but these online interactions with losers that only want to troll provide nothing, and only strengthen their want to say these things. I'm not saying transphobes and such don't exist, all I'm saying is that they're not representative of the hobby, and not the majority of the hobby. They're just a loud and idiotic group, and since they're in your area, I hope you are safe and well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I don't know if you play in a competitive or tournament heavy area, but in my experience, competitive stuff can attract donkey-caves. It doesn't necessarily, but it can.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/03 04:01:36


Post by: CadianSgtBob


 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
But let's not lump this kind of stupidity in with actual racists, homophobes, etc.


See previous comment about how "it's just a joke" is a standard strategy used by those actual racists/homophobes/etc. It isn't just a joke at all, that's a calculated defensive strategy to let them push their offensive views without getting booted out of a community over it. Everything RealAndTrue is saying is exactly in line with what the 4chan Nazis do and the things they genuinely believe.

And if you mean offensive humor, offensive humor is great. It just needs to be done well.


"Gay people are mentally ill lol" isn't a joke just because they put "lol" at the end.


Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE @ 2022/07/03 04:26:58


Post by: Voss


 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
This guy is a troll, but is definitely harmless. It was obvious since his first few posts. And please don't use him as proof that the hobby is full of alt right idiots or nazis. People like trolling. The fact that anyone takes him seriously is odd, considering I see this attitude all the time in video games. Just trying to provoke people for a laugh. The best thing to do is ignore and report them.

Contributing to an environment where people feel they may be harmed isn't harmless. That one may well be completely ineffectual in person, but being part of and actively contributing to a hostile environment isn't OK. Bragging about 'taking care' of people who's beliefs don't align is right out.
Reporting is a given, letting it continue (ignoring), not so much.

He's more obvious than others, but he's just the beret on a pile of terrible people that crawled out of the woodwork to proclaim their bigotry in the progenitor thread to this one.
I've got 30-some people on my ignore list. Some are just ones I find personally annoying because of their posting style or simple repetitiveness (same things to say on the same topics every time), but a good 20 or so are there because they're really obviously racist, misogynist or anti anyone who falls under the umbrella of queer.* Most of them are still around (some got bored and left). So this one isn't proof, just more of the same and louder with it.


*sorry to anyone that prefers LGBT+, but the acronym annoys me. Acronyms are for things, not people. Too many years of federal jargon, and it feels less inclusive to boot (YMMV, other people have legit reasons to prefer it)