Honestly, I just can't see it. This seems like the continued devolution of the game back into a much smaller niche compared to when it was giving GW a run for their money.
It will be interesting to see how the 3d printing goes. I cannot disagree with the points they make about what they can do with a printer vs traditional molds as well as how they can set up print farms in other parts of the world to produce locally. Those are some amazing strengths for printers.
Definitely a huge change, though almost all of it is things we've all kind of said the game needed for years now. They're taking a huge step back towards a more approachable, quicker more skirmish scaled game. Unit sizes are notably smaller, as is the size of the game in general. It's just painful as its pretty clear that there's not a lot of plans to really support existing models, so we're more or less talking a whole new game here.
Mk3 was a 'living game?' Honestly did not know that.
New editions are hard? Er, what? The entire games industry (TT and RPGs) is structured around new editions.
Setting fire to the minis line (no matter how they dress it up) is going to go over badly. That its going to take years and years to get the Legends mode going should be a convincing argument that it isn't going to work.
Factions vs Armies vs Cadres. yeah... Fun with pointless army restrictions further invalidating stuff. Cool.
Our two brands are one brand. No crap. But... why is one brand the absolute loser, here? Easier to jump in doesn't make this ok.
Blah, blah App. But at least we aren't charging you this time!
Feth off.
3d printing Uh-huh. So wait and see what the quality is like, I guess.
SKUs Ugh. That's dropping the model range down to basically nothing and cookie cutter armies by default, with very few way out of it. Sounds terrible.
Inherently magnetized kits sounds intriguing.
Kind of want to see the Beta Rules, but that's about it. Hopefully it isn't as much of a mess as the mk3 rulebooks were.
Honestly, I just can't see it. This seems like the continued devolution of the game back into a much smaller niche compared to when it was giving GW a run for their money.
I actually think the 3d printing production is a good call. I've been thinking it was going to supplant resin casting for small and medium outfits pretty quickly, as the cost ratio is pretty much in line these days, and 3d printer tech and costs are going down and improving in quality, unlike resin casting which, if anything, is going up in costs. The idea that they can have internationally distributed production centers much more easily is also a good factor.
It remains to be seen if they can keep up with sales, but at the same time, it's relatively easy to scale 3d printing production in comparison to resin or metal casting production.
Honestly, I just can't see it. This seems like the continued devolution of the game back into a much smaller niche compared to when it was giving GW a run for their money.
It feels like the way forward, to be honest, particularly with the mounting supply chain issues and shipping costs. The ability to produce locally and reduce shipping costs (and taxes) and the complexity of your supply chain are reasons more than enough to go for it.
LunarSol wrote: Definitely a huge change, though almost all of it is things we've all kind of said the game needed for years now. They're taking a huge step back towards a more approachable, quicker more skirmish scaled game. Unit sizes are notably smaller, as is the size of the game in general. It's just painful as its pretty clear that there's not a lot of plans to really support existing models, so we're more or less talking a whole new game here.
Yet at the same time the Legacy system is the only real way to handle the bloat of the game. People complain about these but It's worked for CCGs for longer then I can even remember and is really the only good way going forward.
They're not the only ones having this issue as CB had to do something similar with N4 Infinity as distributors only want to carry new stuff and so they have to constantly be cycling armies or remaking them (Morrats are getting yet another redesign) to keep them in stores.
People will leave or have no interested coming back but if they don't do this the MK4 will be doa as it just won't be able to grow.
MK3 didn't exist. It was marketed as "All New War" and stated as the more or less ultimate edition of the game designed so that it would just evolve the rules rather than there ever be a new edition. Obviously that didn't pan out.... almost immediately, but yeah, MK3 was just a fan name. To PP, the edition was just the "living rules" for Warmachine going forward when it launched.
Honestly, I just can't see it. This seems like the continued devolution of the game back into a much smaller niche compared to when it was giving GW a run for their money.
I actually think the 3d printing production is a good call. I've been thinking it was going to supplant resin casting for small and medium outfits pretty quickly, as the cost ratio is pretty much in line these days, and 3d printer tech and costs are going down and improving in quality, unlike resin casting which, if anything, is going up in costs. The idea that they can have internationally distributed production centers much more easily is also a good factor.
It remains to be seen if they can keep up with sales, but at the same time, it's relatively easy to scale 3d printing production in comparison to resin or metal casting production.
I'll just put it this way - I know I'm only one gamer, but I have never in my life said "wow, I'm really looking forward to working on this 3d print"
Where on the other hand I have said similar for hard plastic minis, and some resin casts too. As someone who isn't into printing as a hobby my experience is 3d prints combine the downsides of resin casts (brittle) with print lines and defects that are hard to fix (because brittle, and toxic dust).
3d printing solidly has a place, but IMO it's for rapid prototyping and creating a diverse array of supplementary bits (shoulder pads and whatnot) at a low cost.
Honestly, I just can't see it. This seems like the continued devolution of the game back into a much smaller niche compared to when it was giving GW a run for their money.
It feels like the way forward, to be honest, particularly with the mounting supply chain issues and shipping costs. The ability to produce locally and reduce shipping costs (and taxes) and the complexity of your supply chain are reasons more than enough to go for it.
And I'm sure lots of other companies will be watching this as right now I'm hearing a lot of "we cannot afford to keep making meta/resin" posts in smaller lines and they're looking at siocast but I'm sure if PP is successful here more might look at 3d printing.
I've been buying Model Train stuff for Fallout (O scale is very close) and a lot of the small 1-2 person shops do almost everything that use to be cast resin/metal with printers now.
I’ll be interested to see how the 3D printing goes. They do make valid points about the benefits of it. Honestly I have bought some 3D printed stuff off Etsy that was pretty impressive….way better than the crappy PVC Privateer Used…..and I like they are building the Warjacks to be magnetized and including compatible magnets in the kit.
That said the MSRPs they are listing for 3D printed miniatures seem pretty outrageous. 200 bucks for half a 3D printed army? I’d call that a tough sell.
I'll just put it this way - I know I'm only one gamer, but I have never in my life said "wow, I'm really looking forward to working on this 3d print"
Where on the other hand I have said similar for hard plastic minis, and some resin casts too. As someone who isn't into printing as a hobby my experience is 3d prints combine the downsides of resin casts (brittle) with print lines and defects that are hard to fix (because brittle, and toxic dust).
3d printing solidly has a place, but IMO it's for rapid prototyping and creating a diverse array of supplementary bits (shoulder pads and whatnot) at a low cost.
Those must have been some very old, low quality resin printers. my first one that I got, that may not have even been 1080p for the screen, had that problem. My new 8k printer ($600USD) lines are truly microscopic and the resin is not that hard to work with. If you don't like resin in general (cast or other wise) ya, it's very similar but there are some very durable, high detail resins (sometimes called ABS Like) that make good gaming figures. Depends on what PP is using to be honest -- just like cast resin.
I'll just put it this way - I know I'm only one gamer, but I have never in my life said "wow, I'm really looking forward to working on this 3d print"
Where on the other hand I have said similar for hard plastic minis, and some resin casts too. As someone who isn't into printing as a hobby my experience is 3d prints combine the downsides of resin casts (brittle) with print lines and defects that are hard to fix (because brittle, and toxic dust).
3d printing solidly has a place, but IMO it's for rapid prototyping and creating a diverse array of supplementary bits (shoulder pads and whatnot) at a low cost.
It depends very much on what resin was used for the print, and what printer. The stuff I print out is equally hard as any resin cast model I've ever bought, if not stronger than some, and my Sonic Mini 4K does extremely good details and layer lines really only visible under some strong magnification. And that's a 350 USD consumer, last gen machine. Did you know that the majority of resin, and even many metal, casts are made from 3d printed masters these days?
Now I'm not saying that there aren't disadvantages to it, for sure. I'll fully agree that one of the better materials is injection molded HIPS, but at the same time that technology is very expensive to get up and running. IMO, compared to the handful of Siocast models I've worked on, I'd rather work on a resin-cast or 3d printed model every time, as I find the Siocast a pain to get clean of mold lines.
• In MKIV, the force you put on the tabletop is an Army, which is a subset of a Faction.
• Models from Armies within the same Faction are not compatible.
• Cadres provide small subsets of a Faction that are compatible with all Armies within a Faction.
A fundamental change in MKIV is that you will no longer play a Faction; you will play an army that is part of a Faction. The Storm Legion, for instance, is an army under the Faction banner of Cygnar. While it will possess many different model options from which a wide variety of army compositions can be built, armies will effectively be finite and closed. Each new army will have its own selection of warcasters and warjacks, units and solos, all of which can only be used in that army. And while we’ll always reserve the right to add new content to an army, armies will not be continually expanded in perpetuity. Our current schema for an army includes three warcasters, two warjacks, five to six units, and a handful of solos.
Cadres are smaller subgroups of a Faction, usually specialists, that can work with multiple armies within a Faction. So as a completely hypothetical example, let’s say we create a Gravediggers army for Cygnar in the future. Then, any models in the Stormsmith Cadre would be able to be used in a Storm Legion or Gravediggers army. Similarly, larger and more expensive models like Colossals and Battle Engines will most commonly be available to multiple armies within a Faction, providing more bang for the buck for those interested in exploring different armies within a Faction.
By restructuring model offerings in this fashion, we hope to be able to offer a wide selection of different armies without creating the expectation that armies will be continually expanded or repeating the problems that come with such ongoing expansion. A more contained approach to the armies, we hope, will also make them easier to learn and understand, even as the overall game catalog grows over time.
That said the MSRPs they are listing for 3D printed miniatures seem pretty outrageous. 200 bucks for half a 3D printed army? I’d call that a tough sell.
Why? 3d printers still require a good amount of work to clean up and maintain. My larger printer, about iPad sized screen, can easily take me 60-90 minutes to clean up and do the final cure of the minis for maybe 20-30 things. If they're using a really good resin that plate is going to be $30-$40 right there for just humans. Then the screen wear time has to be added.
They aren't something you spend 10min with and everything magically exists ready to use.
You also have to add in the distributor and store tax of 60% or so (so that 200 bundle is being sold into distribution for $80).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
scarletsquig wrote: 3d printed production is brilliant, first major company to go down this route.
I wonder if they'll sell STLs as well?
They've said no to that many times just in this past week on Facebook.
• In MKIV, the force you put on the tabletop is an Army, which is a subset of a Faction.
• Models from Armies within the same Faction are not compatible.
• Cadres provide small subsets of a Faction that are compatible with all Armies within a Faction.
A fundamental change in MKIV is that you will no longer play a Faction; you will play an army that is part of a Faction. The Storm Legion, for instance, is an army under the Faction banner of Cygnar. While it will possess many different model options from which a wide variety of army compositions can be built, armies will effectively be finite and closed. Each new army will have its own selection of warcasters and warjacks, units and solos, all of which can only be used in that army. And while we’ll always reserve the right to add new content to an army, armies will not be continually expanded in perpetuity. Our current schema for an army includes three warcasters, two warjacks, five to six units, and a handful of solos.
Cadres are smaller subgroups of a Faction, usually specialists, that can work with multiple armies within a Faction. So as a completely hypothetical example, let’s say we create a Gravediggers army for Cygnar in the future. Then, any models in the Stormsmith Cadre would be able to be used in a Storm Legion or Gravediggers army. Similarly, larger and more expensive models like Colossals and Battle Engines will most commonly be available to multiple armies within a Faction, providing more bang for the buck for those interested in exploring different armies within a Faction.
By restructuring model offerings in this fashion, we hope to be able to offer a wide selection of different armies without creating the expectation that armies will be continually expanded or repeating the problems that come with such ongoing expansion. A more contained approach to the armies, we hope, will also make them easier to learn and understand, even as the overall game catalog grows over time.
I honestly don't hate this.
I do. It basically doubles down on excluding 'your dudes, your way.'
Not on our PP's watch, you'll play their way (and with the new models), or not at all.
The idea that you can't have storm knights as a mobile fighting reserve for a gunline of trenchers is patently absurd according to their own fluff and way more boring.
Interesting. I'm kind of target they are targeting. Used to play, have interested, no old models so them going to pp legends not issue and culling sku's helps it not being so overwhelming.
Depending rules/prices/local gaming circuit could be interesting.
Read through the whole article, well written and seems as though they have really taken on board all the criticism and suggestions made by the community over the past few years. Making all the right moves to bring in new blood to the game, which it is sorely in need of. WM is still IMO one of the cleanest rulesets around with a great deal of mechanical/strategic depth, which really makes it ideal for the hyper competitive minded wargamer . Certainly better than anything GW is currently producing on that front (come at me GW fanboys.) I actually plan to open my own gaming venue next year, and this will be one of the games I intend on promoting and supporting, so the timing of this will align with that quite nicely.
The only thing I don't really like is the FORCED app use, I understand all the advantages it brings, with the ability to make more regular balance tweaks much in the same way online competitive video games do. But I Just don't like using digital tech in my table top games, it just feels like a less 'pure' experience... table top games are my escape from digital tech/screens, which I think most would agree we have too much of in our life's already. It can often be quite clunky navigating through touch screen menus to find what you need too, instead of just being able to pick up and glance at a card, or hand to your opponent should they need to reference it... then you have the issue of low battery on your devices... you definitely need a bigger screen tablet with a longer battery life if as opposed to a phone. Hopefully if enough people demand it they will make physical print your own cards an option, like they were previously supporting.
I wonder what this means for their Warcaster NM line, I assume all of that will now be 3d printed too? Glad I held off on buying those if true as I'm quite interested in taking that game for a test drive at some point.
I'll just put it this way - I know I'm only one gamer, but I have never in my life said "wow, I'm really looking forward to working on this 3d print"
Where on the other hand I have said similar for hard plastic minis, and some resin casts too. As someone who isn't into printing as a hobby my experience is 3d prints combine the downsides of resin casts (brittle) with print lines and defects that are hard to fix (because brittle, and toxic dust).
3d printing solidly has a place, but IMO it's for rapid prototyping and creating a diverse array of supplementary bits (shoulder pads and whatnot) at a low cost.
It depends very much on what resin was used for the print, and what printer. The stuff I print out is equally hard as any resin cast model I've ever bought, if not stronger than some, and my Sonic Mini 4K does extremely good details and layer lines really only visible under some strong magnification. And that's a 350 USD consumer, last gen machine. Did you know that the majority of resin, and even many metal, casts are made from 3d printed masters these days?
Yes, I did know that, so please don't try to "well ackshually..." me.
I even mentioned prototyping as an application of 3dd printing.
Now I'm not saying that there aren't disadvantages to it, for sure. I'll fully agree that one of the better materials is injection molded HIPS, but at the same time that technology is very expensive to get up and running. IMO, compared to the handful of Siocast models I've worked on, I'd rather work on a resin-cast or 3d printed model every time, as I find the Siocast a pain to get clean of mold lines.
Haven't handled a Siocast mini yet, but I've work on some of Reaper's plastics and they're pretty hit and miss with mold line removal depending on which version of Bones it is and how thoughtful they were with mold line placement. If I had the choice of 3d print or Bones it would really depend on the miniature in question.
I'll just put it this way - I know I'm only one gamer, but I have never in my life said "wow, I'm really looking forward to working on this 3d print"
Where on the other hand I have said similar for hard plastic minis, and some resin casts too. As someone who isn't into printing as a hobby my experience is 3d prints combine the downsides of resin casts (brittle) with print lines and defects that are hard to fix (because brittle, and toxic dust).
3d printing solidly has a place, but IMO it's for rapid prototyping and creating a diverse array of supplementary bits (shoulder pads and whatnot) at a low cost.
It depends very much on what resin was used for the print, and what printer. The stuff I print out is equally hard as any resin cast model I've ever bought, if not stronger than some, and my Sonic Mini 4K does extremely good details and layer lines really only visible under some strong magnification. And that's a 350 USD consumer, last gen machine. Did you know that the majority of resin, and even many metal, casts are made from 3d printed masters these days?
Yes, I did know that, so please don't try to "well ackshually..." me.
I even mentioned prototyping as an application of 3dd printing.
Now I'm not saying that there aren't disadvantages to it, for sure. I'll fully agree that one of the better materials is injection molded HIPS, but at the same time that technology is very expensive to get up and running. IMO, compared to the handful of Siocast models I've worked on, I'd rather work on a resin-cast or 3d printed model every time, as I find the Siocast a pain to get clean of mold lines.
Haven't handled a Siocast mini yet, but I've work on some of Reaper's plastics and they're pretty hit and miss with mold line removal depending on which version of Bones it is and how thoughtful they were with mold line placement. If I had the choice of 3d print or Bones it would really depend on the miniature in question.
• In MKIV, the force you put on the tabletop is an Army, which is a subset of a Faction.
• Models from Armies within the same Faction are not compatible.
• Cadres provide small subsets of a Faction that are compatible with all Armies within a Faction.
A fundamental change in MKIV is that you will no longer play a Faction; you will play an army that is part of a Faction. The Storm Legion, for instance, is an army under the Faction banner of Cygnar. While it will possess many different model options from which a wide variety of army compositions can be built, armies will effectively be finite and closed. Each new army will have its own selection of warcasters and warjacks, units and solos, all of which can only be used in that army. And while we’ll always reserve the right to add new content to an army, armies will not be continually expanded in perpetuity. Our current schema for an army includes three warcasters, two warjacks, five to six units, and a handful of solos.
Cadres are smaller subgroups of a Faction, usually specialists, that can work with multiple armies within a Faction. So as a completely hypothetical example, let’s say we create a Gravediggers army for Cygnar in the future. Then, any models in the Stormsmith Cadre would be able to be used in a Storm Legion or Gravediggers army. Similarly, larger and more expensive models like Colossals and Battle Engines will most commonly be available to multiple armies within a Faction, providing more bang for the buck for those interested in exploring different armies within a Faction.
By restructuring model offerings in this fashion, we hope to be able to offer a wide selection of different armies without creating the expectation that armies will be continually expanded or repeating the problems that come with such ongoing expansion. A more contained approach to the armies, we hope, will also make them easier to learn and understand, even as the overall game catalog grows over time.
I honestly don't hate this.
The most exciting potential this has in in that 4th faction they teased. Dusk: House Kallyss. This seems like its obvious Eldritch which means Retribution, but the logo has a bit of Cryx to it and.... that's still Eldritch. No reason an Army can't belong to more than one faction and if that's the case, the Cadres will significantly change how the armies play depending on the faction they are played in.
I'll just put it this way - I know I'm only one gamer, but I have never in my life said "wow, I'm really looking forward to working on this 3d print"
Where on the other hand I have said similar for hard plastic minis, and some resin casts too. As someone who isn't into printing as a hobby my experience is 3d prints combine the downsides of resin casts (brittle) with print lines and defects that are hard to fix (because brittle, and toxic dust).
3d printing solidly has a place, but IMO it's for rapid prototyping and creating a diverse array of supplementary bits (shoulder pads and whatnot) at a low cost.
It depends very much on what resin was used for the print, and what printer. The stuff I print out is equally hard as any resin cast model I've ever bought, if not stronger than some, and my Sonic Mini 4K does extremely good details and layer lines really only visible under some strong magnification. And that's a 350 USD consumer, last gen machine. Did you know that the majority of resin, and even many metal, casts are made from 3d printed masters these days?
Yes, I did know that, so please don't try to "well ackshually..." me.
I even mentioned prototyping as an application of 3dd printing.
Now I'm not saying that there aren't disadvantages to it, for sure. I'll fully agree that one of the better materials is injection molded HIPS, but at the same time that technology is very expensive to get up and running. IMO, compared to the handful of Siocast models I've worked on, I'd rather work on a resin-cast or 3d printed model every time, as I find the Siocast a pain to get clean of mold lines.
Haven't handled a Siocast mini yet, but I've work on some of Reaper's plastics and they're pretty hit and miss with mold line removal depending on which version of Bones it is and how thoughtful they were with mold line placement. If I had the choice of 3d print or Bones it would really depend on the miniature in question.
Well, ackshually, prototyping isn't the same as master copy printing. (Seriously, I am joking, and didn't mean to be That Guy in my earlier reply)
The one thing that I am pretty concerned about is actually how they'll deal with QC if they're distributing their printing farms. You might get some prints from a producer that knows their gak and really did a good job, and then some other producer (maybe across the pond, maybe wherever else they're thinking) doesn't take as much care and you get less quality parts. This happens with cast resins, too, though, but that's not as easily or as often distributed.
I guess my real point is that I've worked with a lot of different materials for models over a long time, from lead (real lead) to 3d print resin and everything that's ever been used in between (I'm old, lol), and have generally found that some of the newer 3d resins are equal or better to the resins used in "traditional" casting. Yes, with that, comes all the disadvantages of resin (more brittle than metal or HIPS), but also with the many of their own advantages (lightweight, fairly easy to sand or carve). If I was given a choice of materials, from worst to best I'd rate them: PVC, Bones 1, Siocast (which is basically Bones USA), White Metal, Polyurethane cast resin, 3d printed resin, HIPS injection molded.
I’m intrigued by the 3D Printing distribution model.
If I’ve read it right, rather than selling STL files to Lieutenant Public*, the models are to be produced by localised 3D Printing firms?
If that’s right, and whilst I suspect we’ll get a lot of hearsay and not a lot of solid info, I do wonder exactly how that will work.
My friend is an avid printer of things 3D, but his machine is quite slow. Certainly too slow to be done as a commercial thing. He is of course just a Bloke With A Hobby, so one suspects commercial 3D printers are necessarily faster, or higher capacity (where my friend can do one at a time, perhaps a commercial 3D printer can do multiple to a batch)
One assumes they’ll get paid per-model as a Slice O’ The Price, or will perhaps have to pay up front for the license, then hope they get enough orders to make their profit, potentially a hybrid of the two. Like a franchise type model.
Which begs the question from such a producer’s point of view, what things might be in place to avoid over saturating a given area?
Yes I am skeptical, but freely admit a solid chunk of that is coming from a position of ignorance I’m perfectly happy to educated away from
*previously known as General Public, but recently demoted due to repeated bouts of stupidity and wilful gross negligence.
If I’ve read it right, rather than selling STL files to Lieutenant Public*, the models are to be produced by localised 3D Printing firms?
If that’s right, and whilst I suspect we’ll get a lot of hearsay and not a lot of solid info, I do wonder exactly how that will work.
My friend is an avid printer of things 3D, but his machine is quite slow. Certainly too slow to be done as a commercial thing. He is of course just a Bloke With A Hobby, so one suspects commercial 3D printers are necessarily faster, or higher capacity (where my friend can do one at a time, perhaps a commercial 3D printer can do multiple to a batch)
One assumes they’ll get paid per-model as a Slice O’ The Price, or will perhaps have to pay up front for the license, then hope they get enough orders to make their profit, potentially a hybrid of the two. Like a franchise type model.
Which begs the question from such a producer’s point of view, what things might be in place to avoid over saturating a given area?
Yes I am skeptical, but freely admit a solid chunk of that is coming from a position of ignorance I’m perfectly happy to educated away from
*previously known as General Public, but recently demoted due to repeated bouts of stupidity and wilful gross negligence.
Not exactly: "farms", not "firms". From what I read, the idea would be that they'd set up regional printing farms for local production of the minis.
As to the actual configuration of the farms, well... it depends. A regular desktop printer with a 6'' screen can print about a dozen regular sized miniatures in one go, and depending on layer height, it can take 2-6 hours to do it. But that's one printer, if you have a farm you'll probably have ten at least. And as you say, if you are doing it you'll generally use bigger format printers.
But the thing is, that's not really expensive: 10 current-tech consumer desktop printers can cost like $2000, while the bigger ones can cost you twice that. That's not exactly a big investment for that.
If I’ve read it right, rather than selling STL files to Lieutenant Public*, the models are to be produced by localised 3D Printing firms?
Yeah that sounds like their plan.
If that’s right, and whilst I suspect we’ll get a lot of hearsay and not a lot of solid info, I do wonder exactly how that will work.
My friend is an avid printer of things 3D, but his machine is quite slow. Certainly too slow to be done as a commercial thing. He is of course just a Bloke With A Hobby, so one suspects commercial 3D printers are necessarily faster, or higher capacity (where my friend can do one at a time, perhaps a commercial 3D printer can do multiple to a batch)
Yup, bigger printers out there right now like the Phrozen Mighty 8k or Saturn 2 have really large print beds in comparison, and still have great details (Mighty 8k is 28 micron x-y, and 21.8x12.3x23.5 cm build volume). And that printer is only like 900 bucks retail.
One assumes they’ll get paid per-model as a Slice O’ The Price, or will perhaps have to pay up front for the license, then hope they get enough orders to make their profit, potentially a hybrid of the two. Like a franchise type model.
No clue how they'll go this route, but l don't think they're gonna just "shop around to find printers," but more likely setting up very specific partnerships that will probably require lots of bookkeeping, sales records, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It will be interesting to see how this 3d printing production goes for sure. I think that the rules quality is going to be one very deciding factor on the success of Mk IV, and thus PP's continued viability, but if the 3d print production is pulled off it could actually really give them a financial boost.
Honestly, I just can't see it. This seems like the continued devolution of the game back into a much smaller niche compared to when it was giving GW a run for their money.
It feels like the way forward, to be honest, particularly with the mounting supply chain issues and shipping costs. The ability to produce locally and reduce shipping costs (and taxes) and the complexity of your supply chain are reasons more than enough to go for it.
But it also makes it a lot more inaccessible for the less involved crowd.
Honestly, I just can't see it. This seems like the continued devolution of the game back into a much smaller niche compared to when it was giving GW a run for their money.
It feels like the way forward, to be honest, particularly with the mounting supply chain issues and shipping costs. The ability to produce locally and reduce shipping costs (and taxes) and the complexity of your supply chain are reasons more than enough to go for it.
But it also makes it a lot more inaccessible for the less involved crowd.
...why? I don't understand. You'd buy the end result anyways, the minis, and they'd be available in more locations (currently you really can only get PP stuff in Noth America).
Albertorius wrote: ...why? I don't understand. You'd buy the end result anyways, the minis, and they'd be available in more locations (currently you really can only get PP stuff in Noth America).
People like to walk into a store, see a box, and buy it. This entirely removes that sort of off the cuff curiosity. Once you're established it's fine, but growing the game will be difficult.
One assumes they’ll get paid per-model as a Slice O’ The Price, or will perhaps have to pay up front for the license, then hope they get enough orders to make their profit, potentially a hybrid of the two. Like a franchise type model.
Which begs the question from such a producer’s point of view, what things might be in place to avoid over saturating a given area?
Yes I am skeptical, but freely admit a solid chunk of that is coming from a position of ignorance I’m perfectly happy to educated away from
You're imagining them contracting extant 3D printing companies to produce their minis, but it sounds more like they imagine opening their own regional shops/offices. A printer farm can be as simple as a bunch of 3D printers set up in a local industrial lot.
I’d argue it’s potentially high risk, high reward. Again I’m aware of my ignorance here so no dog piling.
The reason I say that, is supply and demand. You can have an excellent rules set, and gorgeous models, but if your customers can’t get their hands on those models? That’s a significant problem.
From what they’ve said, and quite possibly reading too far between the lines, it seems they have little choice but to give this a whirl, as it’s no longer cost effective to do what they were doing these past decades (that felt weird. They’re still The New Kid to me. Because I’m old and that’s what happens when you’re old, you don’t notice new things becoming old as well)
I do hope it works out overall, but I suspect we may see teething problems.
And who knows, we might even see GW follow suit, even if the Implementation doesn’t work. After all, just because something doesn’t work, doesn’t mean it’s unworkable.
Albertorius wrote: ...why? I don't understand. You'd buy the end result anyways, the minis, and they'd be available in more locations (currently you really can only get PP stuff in Noth America).
People like to walk into a store, see a box, and buy it. This entirely removes that sort of off the cuff curiosity. Once you're established it's fine, but growing the game will be difficult.
Again, why? They're changing the production, not anything else. From what I understand, they'll still be sold in stores. Or rather, once again, as I said, here in this side of the pond we haven't seen hair nor hide of a PP mini in years.
Albertorius wrote: ...why? I don't understand. You'd buy the end result anyways, the minis, and they'd be available in more locations (currently you really can only get PP stuff in Noth America).
People like to walk into a store, see a box, and buy it. This entirely removes that sort of off the cuff curiosity. Once you're established it's fine, but growing the game will be difficult.
There's nothing saying they're not going to be at retail. In fact, I'd be really surprised if they did that (and, frankly, that would be stupid).
What this plan does, theoretically, is turn warehousing into production facility as well. Rather than shipping palettes of completely packed models in retail packaging, they can have their hub produce the models themselves, then toss those into the retail packaging and send to distributors. They weren't saying anything about not selling to retail.
well as an outsider to Warmachine (I've picked up a few Cryx models in the past and flirted with the idea of collecting but never followed through) this has me interested.
Ultimately, they're right. the warmachine model like is vast and intimidating and indecision paralysis is definitely a thing, not to mention the near impossibility of finding a retailer that stocks everything you could possibly want. Starting over with new army lists and "legends-ing" their existing range seems like the only practical course of action.
Customisable jacks are a winner, even without magnets. Customising caster spells is also a plus. Coming from other games the perceived rigidity of warmachine was a major turnoff, at least for me.
Moving to 3D printing is going to vastly improve their distribution. They don't have to manufacture everything in one location then distribute it worldwide from there, now they can just send the files to print farms in other countries for local distribution. Frankly this is an incredible idea for the kinds of relatively low-volume production that nonetheless needs to reach a wide area. Doesn't work for every company but could be perfect for PP
I'm excited, and interested. Not to keen on the app but maybe I'm judging it harshly based on the 40k app. at the very least having all the rules for everything for free in one place will be great for beginners
The reason I say that, is supply and demand. You can have an excellent rules set, and gorgeous models, but if your customers can’t get their hands on those models? That’s a significant problem.
It seems fairly simple to scale up a printing farm, at least from a logistical standpoint, and compared to other forms of mini production. You just get more space, more machines and more staff. And I don't think 3D printers are beholden to doing the sort of "runs" that have caused GW product shortages at times; they can just print whatever they need more of.
Moving to 3D printing is going to vastly improve their distribution. They don't have to manufacture everything in one location then distribute it worldwide from there, now they can just send the files to print farms in other countries for local distribution. Frankly this is an incredible idea for the kinds of relatively low-volume production that nonetheless needs to reach a wide area. Doesn't work for every company but could be perfect for PP
Yes, this. I think cutting out the overseas shipping and being able to save on VAT and other various import taxes could be a huge thing. If they can also figure out a way to have any paper materials likewise locally printed (boxes, etc.), then this could be a real game changer for them. It can also really reduce the amount of "dead stock" in any one locale, since it can be essentially Print on Demand.
I think some of the confusion is that people see 3D printing and assume we're talking about selling STL files and making people print them themselves. That's not at all what's happening here.
Albertorius wrote: ...why? I don't understand. You'd buy the end result anyways, the minis, and they'd be available in more locations (currently you really can only get PP stuff in Noth America).
People like to walk into a store, see a box, and buy it.
That's exactly what they'll continue to do, only the contents of the box will have been produced in a regional 3D printing facility rather than a foundry or resin casting facility.
The reason I say that, is supply and demand. You can have an excellent rules set, and gorgeous models, but if your customers can’t get their hands on those models? That’s a significant problem.
It seems fairly simple to scale up a printing farm, at least from a logistical standpoint, and compared to other forms of mini production. You just get more space, more machines and more staff. And I don't think 3D printers are beholden to doing the sort of "runs" that have caused GW product shortages at times; they can just print whatever they need more of.
I worry you’re over simplifying here.
Hobby 3D printing isn’t commercial 3D printing. If I’m doing it for me, it’s annoying if a model comes out on the wonk, but ultimately it’s just a waste of electricity and the goo. If a commercially scaled 3D printer goes on the wonk? That’s multiple prints knackered, as well as time and money wasted.
I know my 3D Printing Friend has to calibrate his machine and do other maintenance, but not that often. Now whether that’s him taking risks or if the tech is generally quite reliable on say, quarterly cleaning and calibration i simply don’t know, but I’m sure someone here can clarify.
There’s also the question of long term development. We know GW has the money to make pretty significant investments in its production facilities and capacity, and in plastic (which I understand to be the most expensive to get setup for, but among the cheapest, if not the cheapest, to produce.
How scalable are these farms? I mean, if this edition takes off, and they see the sort of growth GW has been posting in the last few years (could potentially be higher, given comments about lack of availability outside the US). That’s not just adding a few more machines, depending on their starting capacity, but potentially doubling their available machines. That seems quite cost intensive in machines, factory space and people to run it?
Please note dear reader this isn’t “Mad Doc Gaks On PP’s Chips”. I’m just genuinely interested in this development, regardless of which company is trying it.
The reason I say that, is supply and demand. You can have an excellent rules set, and gorgeous models, but if your customers can’t get their hands on those models? That’s a significant problem.
It seems fairly simple to scale up a printing farm, at least from a logistical standpoint, and compared to other forms of mini production. You just get more space, more machines and more staff. And I don't think 3D printers are beholden to doing the sort of "runs" that have caused GW product shortages at times; they can just print whatever they need more of.
I worry you’re over simplifying here.
Hobby 3D printing isn’t commercial 3D printing. If I’m doing it for me, it’s annoying if a model comes out on the wonk, but ultimately it’s just a waste of electricity and the goo. If a commercially scaled 3D printer goes on the wonk? That’s multiple prints knackered, as well as time and money wasted.
I know my 3D Printing Friend has to calibrate his machine and do other maintenance, but not that often. Now whether that’s him taking risks or if the tech is generally quite reliable on say, quarterly cleaning and calibration i simply don’t know, but I’m sure someone here can clarify.
There’s also the question of long term development. We know GW has the money to make pretty significant investments in its production facilities and capacity, and in plastic (which I understand to be the most expensive to get setup for, but among the cheapest, if not the cheapest, to produce.
How scalable are these farms? I mean, if this edition takes off, and they see the sort of growth GW has been posting in the last few years (could potentially be higher, given comments about lack of availability outside the US). That’s not just adding a few more machines, depending on their starting capacity, but potentially doubling their available machines. That seems quite cost intensive in machines, factory space and people to run it?
Please note dear reader this isn’t “Mad Doc Gaks On PP’s Chips”. I’m just genuinely interested in this development, regardless of which company is trying it.
While there might be some simplification above, it also isn't actually as complex as you might be thinking.
With a printer farm, generally it makes the most sense to have all your machines of the same model. This means that you have a better supply of replacement parts if needed (and yes, there will be things that need replacing on a regular basis; nFEP sheets, vats, screens, etc.), but also that once you slice a given build plate, you can use it on all of the machines in your farm if you want. The majority of twiddling for resin printing is typically done in the software, not on the printer itself, so once you have your machines properly leveled, etc. they can just go BRRR for a while before needing much other maintenance. Also, it's completely viable for a single person to shepherd a dozen or more machines. Once you get the files loaded and hit "go," there's not a whole lot for you to do but have a tea and wait. So, having multiple printers going isn't that big a deal. One gets done, you pop the parts off, do some quick inspection on the machine, etc., then toss the parts in the "to be cleaned" bucket, load the next file and refill resin, and hit "print" and move on to the next one.
Now, sure, if PP gets to the point where they need to produce 10000 of a given model a day, then they're gonna have problems. But, let's be honest: will they even sell 10000 of any given kit in a month? I think that's sadly unlikely. If and when it does get to that point, then they should reasonably look back at HIPS injection molding, since that's the only thing that can handle that kind of volume. But a distributed network of printer farms could actually do quite a bit, and also be able to adapt to more regional needs much more rapidly.
I’m also wondering about power capacity and costs involved.
A plastic machine at GW can spit out sprues pretty quickly. Indeed legend has it there’s one machine (or was, I suppose) which just farts out Tactical Marines 24/7. That’s a single machine with a single draw on electricity.
And we know from GW’s annual report (look I notice weird things. Yes that makes me weird but also good at my job) they now have 43 Injection Moulding Machines, and the Factory is run 24 hours a day, 5 days a week.
Now, as to how much those churn out in a day? Feth knows. We don’t even know if each machine has the same capacity as the next (new ones might be bigger and faster?)
But that’s still a set 43 Machines to churn out every plastic kit currently available.
What count of machine PP might be looking at here is, again, a Feth Knows question. Well. Not Feth. PP will know, just as GW will know their own facts and figures and that.
Bear in mind that in expanding their factory, GW needed the local energy grid upgraded too - so that could be an issue for PP, depending on how many individual farms they have.
As I said, I’m very interested in learning more because it seems pretty cool!
Hobby 3D printing isn’t commercial 3D printing. If I’m doing it for me, it’s annoying if a model comes out on the wonk, but ultimately it’s just a waste of electricity and the goo. If a commercially scaled 3D printer goes on the wonk? That’s multiple prints knackered, as well as time and money wasted.
I know my 3D Printing Friend has to calibrate his machine and do other maintenance, but not that often. Now whether that’s him taking risks or if the tech is generally quite reliable on say, quarterly cleaning and calibration i simply don’t know, but I’m sure someone here can clarify.
They would almost certainly be using multiple small printers and checking the print quality in between prints.
Calibration stuff improves with experience, so I think if anything a farm setup would be better at quickly addressing problems causing bad prints than an individual would (particularly if a local farm can call upon the technical experience of their older sibling farms in other places).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: How scalable are these farms? I mean, if this edition takes off, and they see the sort of growth GW has been posting in the last few years (could potentially be higher, given comments about lack of availability outside the US). That’s not just adding a few more machines, depending on their starting capacity, but potentially doubling their available machines. That seems quite cost intensive in machines, factory space and people to run it?
I think you'd probably agree that "what if we become the most successful company in our field, ever?" is not a good baseline from which to approach a new business plan. They would probably be very content to eventually have that problem.
Voss wrote: I do. It basically doubles down on excluding 'your dudes, your way.'
Not on our PP's watch, you'll play their way (and with the new models), or not at all.
The idea that you can't have storm knights as a mobile fighting reserve for a gunline of trenchers is patently absurd according to their own fluff and way more boring.
Cadres are smaller subgroups of a Faction, usually specialists, that can work with multiple armies within a Faction. So as a completely hypothetical example, let’s say we create a Gravediggers army for Cygnar in the future. Then, any models in the Stormsmith Cadre would be able to be used in a Storm Legion or Gravediggers army. Similarly, larger and more expensive models like Colossals and Battle Engines will most commonly be available to multiple armies within a Faction, providing more bang for the buck for those interested in exploring different armies within a Faction.
Apparently, they've given it some thought.
Speaking bluntly though? The current Gravediggers force makes zero mention of "Storm Knights" supporting them. That's a Bigger Picture element.
I, personally, am a big fan of this since it actually encourages themed forces in terms of balancing them out and going from there. Wish GW had the guts to try this kind of thing.
I think you're comparing apples to rutabegas there, @Mad Doc. 3d printing production will not come close, either in production capacity nor cost, to injection molding.
Where it does match or better is in resin and metal casting. Especially versus metal, it's much, much cheaper. Compared to resin casting, 3d printing is equal or lower on materials cost, and about on par for electrical once you consider vacuum chambers typically used for resin molds. Labor costs really depend; there's a lot more constant labor over resin casting, whereas that labor is more "bunched" at the start and end of 3d print runs.
Since the demand for PP has clearly not been up to the levels that they could justify the injection molding route (and they tried and gave up on the "cheaper" options for that, e.g. PVC from China), they've been doing resin and metal casting, mostly in-house. Compared to that, the distributed 3d printing is very, very viable as an alternative.
Oh I’m sure they’ve considered all this stuff. I mean, I’m an uninformed idiot about many things, not just 3D Printing, so if I’m thinking of it, you’d bloody hope any company thinking of doing it have too.
Unless PP are about to make a surprise appearance on Dragon’s Den (Shark Tank for our US chums) where seemingly nobody ever bloody thinks things through!
Voss wrote: I do. It basically doubles down on excluding 'your dudes, your way.'
Not on our PP's watch, you'll play their way (and with the new models), or not at all.
The idea that you can't have storm knights as a mobile fighting reserve for a gunline of trenchers is patently absurd according to their own fluff and way more boring.
Cadres are smaller subgroups of a Faction, usually specialists, that can work with multiple armies within a Faction. So as a completely hypothetical example, let’s say we create a Gravediggers army for Cygnar in the future. Then, any models in the Stormsmith Cadre would be able to be used in a Storm Legion or Gravediggers army. Similarly, larger and more expensive models like Colossals and Battle Engines will most commonly be available to multiple armies within a Faction, providing more bang for the buck for those interested in exploring different armies within a Faction.
Apparently, they've given it some thought.
Storm knights aren't stormsmiths. Or at least weren't. Stormsmiths are the wacky guys with the Doc Brown hair and lightning sticks. Storm knights are the guys in armor and lightning swords.
Speaking bluntly though? The current Gravediggers force makes zero mention of "Storm Knights" supporting them. That's a Bigger Picture element.
The Cygnaran armed forces fighting as an army is bigger picture? No, that was just baseline. I give zero feths about whatever the 'current Gravediggers force' is.
I, personally, am a big fan of this since it actually encourages themed forces in terms of balancing them out and going from there. Wish GW had the guts to try this kind of thing.
I can see people liking it from a pure game design standpoint. Its easy and it makes balance issues less problematic.
But from a fluff perspective its pure nonsense and contradicts years and years of material.
As I said, I’m very interested in learning more because it seems pretty cool!
Here are some recent pics of what a 3D print farm can look like, from Steel Warrior Studios, who make Battletech terrain, and recently moved into a new studio (I don't have a Facebook account so I don't think I can get a direct link to the post, but it's their second most recent post)
Valander wrote: I think you're comparing apples to rutabegas there, @Mad Doc. 3d printing production will not come close, either in production capacity nor cost, to injection molding.
Where it does match or better is in resin and metal casting. Especially versus metal, it's much, much cheaper. Compared to resin casting, 3d printing is equal or lower on materials cost, and about on par for electrical once you consider vacuum chambers typically used for resin molds. Labor costs really depend; there's a lot more constant labor over resin casting, whereas that labor is more "bunched" at the start and end of 3d print runs.
Since the demand for PP has clearly not been up to the levels that they could justify the injection molding route (and they tried and gave up on the "cheaper" options for that, e.g. PVC from China), they've been doing resin and metal casting, mostly in-house. Compared to that, the distributed 3d printing is very, very viable as an alternative.
Yeah I kind of lost my own thread whilst looking for how many machines GW has.
What I was trying to highlight is expanding production capacity is rarely as simple as “get more machines!”, as you need to ensure you have the floor space for them, folk to run them, and sufficient incoming electricity supply to run the buggers.
But as per last post, this isn’t me pooping on the idea, as I’m confident PP will have considered this, I’m just genuinely well fascinated by the overall development.
I’m also interested to see the price points involved, as those could prove interesting. No I’m not interested in sticker shaming and reducing it to “but it costs 2p to fart one out, why am it £10”
talking to folk from companies who do both resin and 3d printing it sounds as if 3d printing for production is easier to nail down than resin casting
(or more specifically making good moulds for resin casting)
and 3d printing sounds like the future when your trying to hire new folk whereas resin casting probably sounds like the past and that in itself is probably a major advantage if your trying to get local supply chains set up
Edit: none of the small firm that have move from casting resin to 3d printing have reduced prices that i've seen, which probably suggests there isn't a huge cost difference at present at least for a small outfit, PP might be different as they're still probably medium sized at least in ambition
Regarding costs, there are currently some cost calculators in the wild that take into account resin, electricity, manpower, wear and tear et all, although mainly aimed at garage kit level of manufacturing.
Valander wrote: I think you're comparing apples to rutabegas there, @Mad Doc. 3d printing production will not come close, either in production capacity nor cost, to injection molding.
Where it does match or better is in resin and metal casting. Especially versus metal, it's much, much cheaper. Compared to resin casting, 3d printing is equal or lower on materials cost, and about on par for electrical once you consider vacuum chambers typically used for resin molds. Labor costs really depend; there's a lot more constant labor over resin casting, whereas that labor is more "bunched" at the start and end of 3d print runs.
Since the demand for PP has clearly not been up to the levels that they could justify the injection molding route (and they tried and gave up on the "cheaper" options for that, e.g. PVC from China), they've been doing resin and metal casting, mostly in-house. Compared to that, the distributed 3d printing is very, very viable as an alternative.
Yeah I kind of lost my own thread whilst looking for how many machines GW has.
What I was trying to highlight is expanding production capacity is rarely as simple as “get more machines!”, as you need to ensure you have the floor space for them, folk to run them, and sufficient incoming electricity supply to run the buggers.
But as per last post, this isn’t me pooping on the idea, as I’m confident PP will have considered this, I’m just genuinely well fascinated by the overall development.
I’m also interested to see the price points involved, as those could prove interesting. No I’m not interested in sticker shaming and reducing it to “but it costs 2p to fart one out, why am it £10”
Totally with ya. I'm really curious to how this works out.
I did get a tiny bit of grapevine juice just now, since I have a buddy who still knows a few folks working at PP. All I got is that they will be using "professional machines," so not consumer grade things like the Sonic Mighty 8k. Not sure exactly what printers they have in mind, but given that, the quality bar and production time just jumped into the much gooder territory.
I very much get the feeling they ran the numbers and realised that PP isn't going to survive 2023 on KS and MiniCrate money alone and that now is the time for a hail mary pass. Given that manufacturing and distribution have really kneecapped Mk3 I don't blame them for trying to do *something* to stay alive, even if the legends thing is a bitter pill to swallow for anyone with a sizeable collection.
Good luck to them. I think they are gonna need it.
Hobby 3D printing isn’t commercial 3D printing. If I’m doing it for me, it’s annoying if a model comes out on the wonk, but ultimately it’s just a waste of electricity and the goo. If a commercially scaled 3D printer goes on the wonk? That’s multiple prints knackered, as well as time and money wasted.
I know my 3D Printing Friend has to calibrate his machine and do other maintenance, but not that often. Now whether that’s him taking risks or if the tech is generally quite reliable on say, quarterly cleaning and calibration i simply don’t know, but I’m sure someone here can clarify.
There’s also the question of long term development. We know GW has the money to make pretty significant investments in its production facilities and capacity, and in plastic (which I understand to be the most expensive to get setup for, but among the cheapest, if not the cheapest, to produce.
How scalable are these farms? I mean, if this edition takes off, and they see the sort of growth GW has been posting in the last few years (could potentially be higher, given comments about lack of availability outside the US). That’s not just adding a few more machines, depending on their starting capacity, but potentially doubling their available machines. That seems quite cost intensive in machines, factory space and people to run it?
Please note dear reader this isn’t “Mad Doc Gaks On PP’s Chips”. I’m just genuinely interested in this development, regardless of which company is trying it.
There's two type of printers. FDM, which later plastic (or similar material) up and are basically fancy plotters vs resin printers. FDMs require a lot of maintenance as there's a lot of moving parts and fail points. Resin printers are incredibly stupid simple mechanically. Cheap ones only have one moving part (a motor) and expensive ones will have two (two motors for two rails for stability) generally and really only need their stepper rods cleaned vary rarely. The other maintenance for Resin printers is a teflon coated sheet of plastic (or similar item) called FEP that wears out over time and this can take about 30min to replace but you can just swap resin vats with a fresh one on and then replace on the other while printing. Calibrating is also very simple if using the same resin. For production you'd want to calibrate for each batch of resin but they can buy a whole lot at once and ensure it's the same so they may only have to Calibrate when switching between resin batches or after screen/laser replacements which may only be 2-3 times a year.
The last consumable is the screen or laser (depending on the printer). Mono screens can last about 3,000-5,000 print hours and are pretty easy swaps (still about 30min) while lasers are 20,000 or so print hours (No clue on how much effort they are to swap but that's years worth of printing).
Scaling up is as simple as adding a new machine so you're only limited by space. A lot of print farms have management software that can manage all the stuff being printed remotely so you don't have to walk to each printer one at a time and start but you do for cleaning after the print. That's where the biggest time sink is for resin and what would be the most expensive to scale up as you need people to do that work.
One also hopes they’re taking their Cyber Security super seriously. Not only could a donkey cave steal the files, but potentially ransomware their production facilities.
Siygess wrote: I very much get the feeling they ran the numbers and realised that PP isn't going to survive 2023 on KS and MiniCrate money alone and that now is the time for a hail mary pass. Given that manufacturing and distribution have really kneecapped Mk3 I don't blame them for trying to do *something* to stay alive, even if the legends thing is a bitter pill to swallow for anyone with a sizeable collection.
Good luck to them. I think they are gonna need it.
I wouldn't say that. I think its pretty clear this has been in the works for years. People have been speculating this since as far back as 2019 at the least.
Albertorius wrote: ...why? I don't understand. You'd buy the end result anyways, the minis, and they'd be available in more locations (currently you really can only get PP stuff in Noth America).
People like to walk into a store, see a box, and buy it. This entirely removes that sort of off the cuff curiosity. Once you're established it's fine, but growing the game will be difficult.
There's nothing saying they're not going to be at retail. In fact, I'd be really surprised if they did that (and, frankly, that would be stupid).
What this plan does, theoretically, is turn warehousing into production facility as well. Rather than shipping palettes of completely packed models in retail packaging, they can have their hub produce the models themselves, then toss those into the retail packaging and send to distributors. They weren't saying anything about not selling to retail.
Hmm. Sounds difficult and erratic though. I guess we'll see! Should be interesting either way.
commercial electricity is much more expensive than domestic (as there is no energy cap and firms can pass on all the costs they want to)
Might that be a country thing? Because here industrial electricity is cheaper in euro/kWh, even though they use to pay more because they spend much more.
Albertorius wrote: ...why? I don't understand. You'd buy the end result anyways, the minis, and they'd be available in more locations (currently you really can only get PP stuff in Noth America).
People like to walk into a store, see a box, and buy it. This entirely removes that sort of off the cuff curiosity. Once you're established it's fine, but growing the game will be difficult.
There's nothing saying they're not going to be at retail. In fact, I'd be really surprised if they did that (and, frankly, that would be stupid).
What this plan does, theoretically, is turn warehousing into production facility as well. Rather than shipping palettes of completely packed models in retail packaging, they can have their hub produce the models themselves, then toss those into the retail packaging and send to distributors. They weren't saying anything about not selling to retail.
Hmm. Sounds difficult and erratic though. I guess we'll see! Should be interesting either way.
Not really: if they were able to do last mile shipping to retail stores before, they will be able to do it now. It's the same problem, just changing the address of the storage unit you point as origin. Much easier to solve that having a single production facility for all the world and having to send your stuff to wharehouses everywhere and then having to negotiate the last mile delivery anyways.
As a 3d noob isn't there a danger that the STL files will find their way to the wider inter-tubes for freeby downloads
Yes, there is. But the risk exists as soon as there are stl files. If they build their own printing farms, it will still be a internal security problem.
Do commercial premises receive favourable-compared-to-residential electricity costs?
Depends on where you live and the various laws.
My mom, now retired, use to work for a city here in the States that has their own power generation (hydro) and powering on a commercial factory could cost 20k from a cold start (this was my uncle's cost for his lumber mill back in the 90s in that same city) while running may be half of what residential is.
To understand why this is the case Electricity has to be generated on demand, it cannot be stored, so a large part about running a power grid is figuring out what demand will be and making sure you're producing just enough for that demand. If you make too little you have to buy from an adjacent grid which can be very expensive. If you have extra you can sell it to other grids but there not always a buyer available so generally all that is done via contracts with neighboring grids.
So back to that super high cold start up cost. Well that's expensive because all the sudden you have a wave of unexpected demand. So you have to go out and buy electricity from another grid -- which can be quite expensive. In most places in the US starting up a large commercial facility without scheduling it will get you into a lot of trouble. Even then, with scheduling, the location you're at may not be able to produce what you need at that time or requires them to bring on extra production and then scale back down an hour later (which is also expensive). So generally factories never fully power down unless they're forced too or do rolling starts where they spread it out over a long period.
Why it can be cheaper the residential is once your factory is running it's very consistent in it's power draw and easier to plan for while residential is always a bit of a guessing game. How many people are going to turn on extra TVs or PCs then they normally do and so on.
As a 3d noob isn't there a danger that the STL files will find their way to the wider inter-tubes for freeby downloads
Yes, there is. But the risk exists as soon as there are stl files. If they build their own printing farms, it will still be a internal security problem.
Yeah, if they're lax with their own internal security, this could happen. Which is why I suspect they will vet whatever farms they use or set up very thoroughly, and why they likely will never sell the STLs to J. Random Public. Really, though, not any inherently higher risk if they keep everything locked down like they would with any other digital assets. The biggest hole for STL leaking is, frankly, if they're sold or otherwise distributed to non-company personnel.
And I'm sure if there is a leak from any of their licensed or internal farms, there will be some stiff legal penalties, just as there would be for leaking financial records or any other trade secrets. I don't think any "up and up" printer service would want to risk that, and I would be very surprised if they use anything other than well established firms, or set up their own facilities.
Given the whole MK3 debacle was a result of translation files for the cards leaking.... I'm sure its a concern they've thought about. Enough.... eh, probably not, but they've been burned before.
For context, an overwhelming majority of models on sale today will at some point in their development existed as .stls or in a format that could easily be used to produce one.
I cannot think of one instance where those files have found their way into the wrong hands.
Azreal13 wrote: For context, an overwhelming majority of models on sale today will at some point in their development existed as .stls or in a format that could easily be used to produce one.
I cannot think of one instance where those files have found their way into the wrong hands.
I can, actually, there's a small number of bushido designs that were leaked.
Well, me and my 150+ Menoth models will take a look at the new rules. Was not a fan of MKIII, but it was clear they were moving towards something, and despite them completely omitting the Exemplars from the latest Menoth book, it was a good read.
Frankly, I would be interested in them offering both physical prints and .stl files. Even if the .stls cost the same as the physical product, I'd probably buy all the ones for Menoth.
Sacredroach wrote: Well, me and my 150+ Menoth models will take a look at the new rules. Was not a fan of MKIII, but it was clear they were moving towards something, and despite them completely omitting the Exemplars from the latest Menoth book, it was a good read.
Frankly, I would be interested in them offering both physical prints and .stl files. Even if the .stls cost the same as the physical product, I'd probably buy all the ones for Menoth.
I, too, would love to be able to buy STLs, but they've confirmed a few times now on their FB feed that this is not going to happen.
Werkrobotwerk wrote: So, I take that this means if you want any of the metal or plastic minis buy them now before they're gone.
Are they ending warcaster and monsterpocalypse metals also?
No word on Warcaster or MonPoc, but I wouldn't be surprised if they move to the same production model if it works out.
Also, it seems they're pretty much gonna redo the whole range anyway, so any existing models may go "Unlimited" status. If they make the move to the Prime status, I would not be surprised if that includes new sculpts, or at least new 3d print production if they already had digital masters (which most probably do, except for some of the really old ones).
It does feel like a bit of a last hail mary from them, although the writing was on the wall for years now about the model line being cycled out like a LCG if not discontinued entirely.
Metals definitely weren't sustainable. Their international prices were infamous even before Covid and the costs have no doubt exacerbated that. At this point I don't think they've anything to lose by going the 3D printing route, although it'll be interesting to see their stance towards Not-Warjacks (Jack Warriors?) inevitably appearing on Cults and the like if they do find more success with Mkvi.
I genuinely love Warmahordes as a game and a setting but our local scene was another casualty of Mk3 (but mostly 8th edition 40k) Releasing in a year of 10th 40k is probably a mistake, but it's not as if their financials would let them delay until the hype around that has passed I guess. If they can carve out a healthy slice of the wargaming market again then more power to them.
Honestly, the restricted armies/models are really only codifying what was already basically true. Sure you could technically take anything before- but it's not like you were taking Stormclads with Trenchers, Grenadiers with gun mages, or Morrowan anything without Connie.
Having models drop or losing access will be hard for sure but then again... it'll still be more models than I'm using for the game right now, which is zero.
As a 3d noob isn't there a danger that the STL files will find their way to the wider inter-tubes for freeby downloads
About as much of a chance that GW's STL files find their way onto the internet. Both companies can pretty easily restrict the STLs to a limited group of people and either cut a mold from that (GW) or slice the file and hand that off to the printing department (Privateer). Honestly, unless you have a new release to add to the print rotation, I would expect even the sliced files wouldn't really be accessible to the print shop. Just select the file that's being printed from the USB drive (or network, more likely), push a button, and remove it from the build plate when you're done.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Edit: none of the small firm that have move from casting resin to 3d printing have reduced prices that i've seen, which probably suggests there isn't a huge cost difference at present at least for a small outfit, PP might be different as they're still probably medium sized at least in ambition
It's possibly not so much that there isn't a huge cost difference as that moving to 3D printing has allowed them to not raise their prices to keep up with the ever-increasing cost of resin production.
3D printing resin has been on a constant slide downwards in cost as well. Nowhere near as much demand causing supply issues combined with a lot of competition in the market means it's really affordable.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: One also hopes they’re taking their Cyber Security super seriously. Not only could a donkey cave steal the files, but potentially ransomware their production facilities.
And yes. That sort of donkey cave does exist.
Donkey cave? Surely you mean an entrepreneur who …works like he’s got a pair.
One thing I'm not as happy about is that they are rolling WM and Hordes into one game - PERFECT they should have done that years ago with MK2.
However they are staggering hordes good chunk away from the WM releases for this new edition. I kind of get that but at the same time I'd kind of expected them to release a WM and H army side by side at the very start and progress through with a similar fairly even hand.
That said the MSRPs they are listing for 3D printed miniatures seem pretty outrageous. 200 bucks for half a 3D printed army? I’d call that a tough sell.
Why? 3d printers still require a good amount of work to clean up and maintain. My larger printer, about iPad sized screen, can easily take me 60-90 minutes to clean up and do the final cure of the minis for maybe 20-30 things. If they're using a really good resin that plate is going to be $30-$40 right there for just humans. Then the screen wear time has to be added.
They aren't something you spend 10min with and everything magically exists ready to use.
You also have to add in the distributor and store tax of 60% or so (so that 200 bundle is being sold into distribution for $80).
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scarletsquig wrote: 3d printed production is brilliant, first major company to go down this route.
Because I can get 20 (or more) Infinity miniatures in metal, with models roughly the size of warjacks….for less than 200 bucks and have two fully armies for a skirmish game. They are also in metal (and better sculpts) which costs a lot more than resin and has mold costs that 3D printing does not. Heck I can get two full factions for Kill Team and an enough terrain to cover the entire board for 200 bucks and that is HIPS with huge start up costs. 3D printing is considerably cheaper than both of those options…and while the process you describe is true….if Privateer Press is actually going through with this they are going to have a lot more than one 3D printed and one person doing all the prep work…so economy of scale is a factor.
Heck I can get 20 Relicblade miniatures in metal for 200 bucks and that is from a literal one man operation, and also would give me more than enough to play a complete game.
So 200 bucks for half of an army needed for a game in one of the cheapest materials to produce in…..well you get the picture.
Hobby 3D printing isn’t commercial 3D printing. If I’m doing it for me, it’s annoying if a model comes out on the wonk, but ultimately it’s just a waste of electricity and the goo. If a commercially scaled 3D printer goes on the wonk? That’s multiple prints knackered, as well as time and money wasted.
I know my 3D Printing Friend has to calibrate his machine and do other maintenance, but not that often. Now whether that’s him taking risks or if the tech is generally quite reliable on say, quarterly cleaning and calibration i simply don’t know, but I’m sure someone here can clarify.
There’s also the question of long term development. We know GW has the money to make pretty significant investments in its production facilities and capacity, and in plastic (which I understand to be the most expensive to get setup for, but among the cheapest, if not the cheapest, to produce.
How scalable are these farms? I mean, if this edition takes off, and they see the sort of growth GW has been posting in the last few years (could potentially be higher, given comments about lack of availability outside the US). That’s not just adding a few more machines, depending on their starting capacity, but potentially doubling their available machines. That seems quite cost intensive in machines, factory space and people to run it?
Please note dear reader this isn’t “Mad Doc Gaks On PP’s Chips”. I’m just genuinely interested in this development, regardless of which company is trying it.
There's two type of printers. FDM, which later plastic (or similar material) up and are basically fancy plotters vs resin printers. FDMs require a lot of maintenance as there's a lot of moving parts and fail points. Resin printers are incredibly stupid simple mechanically. Cheap ones only have one moving part (a motor) and expensive ones will have two (two motors for two rails for stability) generally and really only need their stepper rods cleaned vary rarely. The other maintenance for Resin printers is a teflon coated sheet of plastic (or similar item) called FEP that wears out over time and this can take about 30min to replace but you can just swap resin vats with a fresh one on and then replace on the other while printing. Calibrating is also very simple if using the same resin. For production you'd want to calibrate for each batch of resin but they can buy a whole lot at once and ensure it's the same so they may only have to Calibrate when switching between resin batches or after screen/laser replacements which may only be 2-3 times a year.
The last consumable is the screen or laser (depending on the printer). Mono screens can last about 3,000-5,000 print hours and are pretty easy swaps (still about 30min) while lasers are 20,000 or so print hours (No clue on how much effort they are to swap but that's years worth of printing).
Scaling up is as simple as adding a new machine so you're only limited by space. A lot of print farms have management software that can manage all the stuff being printed remotely so you don't have to walk to each printer one at a time and start but you do for cleaning after the print. That's where the biggest time sink is for resin and what would be the most expensive to scale up as you need people to do that work.
There are also recurring PPE costs, extra electricity costs from ventilated enclosures, an air purifier in the space as backup. Screen protectors for the LCD. Gaskets and/or gasket tape for around replaced screens. etc.
Do commercial premises receive favourable-compared-to-residential electricity costs?
Depends on where you live and the various laws.
My mom, now retired, use to work for a city here in the States that has their own power generation (hydro) and powering on a commercial factory could cost 20k from a cold start (this was my uncle's cost for his lumber mill back in the 90s in that same city) while running may be half of what residential is.
To understand why this is the case Electricity has to be generated on demand, it cannot be stored, so a large part about running a power grid is figuring out what demand will be and making sure you're producing just enough for that demand. If you make too little you have to buy from an adjacent grid which can be very expensive. If you have extra you can sell it to other grids but there not always a buyer available so generally all that is done via contracts with neighboring grids.
So back to that super high cold start up cost. Well that's expensive because all the sudden you have a wave of unexpected demand. So you have to go out and buy electricity from another grid -- which can be quite expensive. In most places in the US starting up a large commercial facility without scheduling it will get you into a lot of trouble. Even then, with scheduling, the location you're at may not be able to produce what you need at that time or requires them to bring on extra production and then scale back down an hour later (which is also expensive). So generally factories never fully power down unless they're forced too or do rolling starts where they spread it out over a long period.
Why it can be cheaper the residential is once your factory is running it's very consistent in it's power draw and easier to plan for while residential is always a bit of a guessing game. How many people are going to turn on extra TVs or PCs then they normally do and so on.
Years ago was working for a small city that was setting up its own utility. I was tasked with setting up the billing system for industrial customers. Was a copy of the major state utilities. A customer that used a steady load could pay less than a customer that used less power, but irregularly. Bill was basically $/kWh + $/peak kW. There were also charges for transformer size and other taxes, but those two fees made up the most. A customer that used say 100 kWh steady 24/7 for a month would pay less than the customer who used 10kWh for a month by had a spike of 1000 kW for 1 minute a month. The peak charge was designed to make up ~50% of the bill and for some it could be the majority.
Back to PP, main concern with the 3D printing is that PP has never had a good quality record. Their metal models were always infamous for mold slip and the quality of their PVC killed the launch of Mk3 in my area. People were literally throwing kits away after trying to assemble them. Will we be getting a wave of people showing their 3D prints with print shifts and similar misprints? Will quality be consistent between sites? PP had a bad reputation for not caring about model quality for a long time.
Back to PP, main concern with the 3D printing is that PP has never had a good quality record. Their metal models were always infamous for mold slip and the quality of their PVC killed the launch of Mk3 in my area. People were literally throwing kits away after trying to assemble them. Will we be getting a wave of people showing their 3D prints with print shifts and similar misprints? Will quality be consistent between sites? PP had a bad reputation for not caring about model quality for a long time.
Really? I get the PVC stuff was bad but I've collect PP stuff since almost the start (for the OG d20RPG) and have never had a bad metal model cast wise (some of the early stuff was poorly thought out for assembly) and their resin is top notch and arguably one of the best in the industry.
Well the gamer in me is glad they atleast are trying, i have not played the game since mk2.
However, owning a large mk2 cygnar force, and a medium mk2 menoth force, i am not shelling out for more models, so i will be waiting and see how playable Unlimited will become as it develops, sounds like it will be impractical whitout some house rules.
I'm definitely in favour of them streamlining everything. I have a bunch of models but aside from one intro game of MkII or III (can't remember for sure) I haven't played since the original Warmachine release. I kept looking to jump back in and finding it too steep a learning curve with all the synergies and theme lists and the like.
So I guess I'll be waiting to see if this winds up being something I can play with the minis I have, or if I just leave them in a box until I find the time and a willing opponent to revisit MkI...
I like almost every part of this. As someone who's been keen on getting into WM/H for years but waiting for them to get their gak together for (gah - 13 years now) - this checks a lot of boxes off for me.
I'll certainly be willing to give it a try - which isn't something I've been able to say about a PP product since like, 2015?
I'd say I'm not real keen on the app - but I certainly understand it. I mainly don't like the idea of having to read fluff on my phone.
Hilarious that they finally realized metal is untenable what, 2 years after launching the last new game in mostly metal.
Also it seems like each faction will start at a $200 too, which seems like a decent deal for a small army in a box, but a steep buy-in for new players. I hope there's still some sort of $50 option for people that want to dip their toe in the water.
But I'm glad they're finally trying something to shake things up though - because they've clearly been run into the ground the last few years. So kudos to PP for finally thinking BIG for once. Even if it fails, at least they'll go down swinging.
But I'm glad they're finally trying something to shake things up though - because they've clearly been run into the ground the last few years. So kudos to PP for finally thinking BIG for once. Even if it fails, at least they'll go down swinging.
Yeah, I will give them that. At least they are trying something new.
I wonder what they're going to do about the labour costs associated with mass 3d printing, and how they intend to scale production if this actually takes off.
Read the whole announcement. Blech. It's like they did targeted market research into everything I'd hate in a wargame. Looked at all the things I liked about MKI and MKII and designed the opposite. I see no reason to dig through my closet and pull out my Retribution or Circle armies, assuming I could even use them with the legacy announcement.
Hated the focus on Theme Lists in end of MKII and the focus on them in MKIII. Getting rid of factions and making it completely theme list based is probably necessary for the health of MKIV, but it's not what I want from the game. They went from bonuses in MKII to necessary in competative lists in MKII and now there's just no options to not do them with Armies.
One of the things I loved about Warmachine was the unit cards, having everything in front of you and marking off damage boxes was great. Armybuilder apps are fine for building an army, but as in-game reference tools I hate them. Infinity does it right, where you can make a list online and print out a physical copy, I HATED the games I played using War Room instead of cards. I'm definitely an analog wargamer.
Lagacy vs Prime sucks. Understandable, downright reasonable for the health of the game, but it sucks. It's one thing for a card game to cycle out old cards, but for models you built and painted and based, that's a hell of a slap in the face. Especially bad when the reason is "rules are hard to write, and we want to sell new 3D printed stuff"
And finally I dislike resin, both 3D printed and cast. It's too delicate, and I truly hate repairing and touching up finished models. I much prefer HIPS and PVC and Siocast. PPs early PVC was pretty bad, just like Mantics's early PVC was bad, but it got better in both cases. Steamforged has done great PVC for Guildball and D&D encounters, Battletech minis are sooooooo good in PVC. I've liked the Siocast Reaper and Infinity figs I've worked with, holds paint well and I don't have to worry about it shattering if it drops, which is increasingly common as I get older. I've really fallen in love with CMON's PVC in recent years, ASoIaF are just pretty much perfect for wargaming. I understanf the reasoning for PP switching to 3D printed resin, but that doesn't mean I like it.
I just don't see anything enticing about this announcement, certainly not enough to draw me back in. Which is weird, because they REALLY sound like they want to draw old players back in
As a long time WM/H player through thick and thin I can say, hand on heart that im aggressively neutral on all of this. It will come down to PPs ability to execute and that makes me very nervous.
On the one hand, all the bits about 3d printing, getting round distro issues, the quality of the new minis we have seen (in terms of materials/build quality) makes me very very happy and seems like the step that PP should have done ages ago.
On the other hand I worry that the way Mk4 will advance the story, change the aesthetic to “everything almost looks like neomechanica” and the way factions are changing spells the end of WM/H as I like it. There is also currently no real info on what Hordes factions will look like in the new Prime. What is happening to Trolls and Circle for example? If my Trollbloods come back with plasma rifles, im out.
I also get what and why PP are trying to do with the legacy and prime game types. But effectively you need to accept that after a certain point, any legacy models not in the prime game will be retired and not supported. And if that is almost whole factions then you will have lots of people only playing legacy or leaving all together. And if that the case, what was the point of a new edition?
Final concern is that this has already split the WM/H community (in good and bad ways). Does PP have enough traction and market share to weather that and will the new edition attract enough brand new players to replace the losses they will suffer? Im really not sure.
I’m on a hard stop of buying anything PP related until 2023 now until I know how this will all shake out. Im in watch and wit mode. Most of my locals have said that they expect they will just play legacy or Mk3 and not bother with the new bits. If that is the case across wide swathes of the community then PP may have just consigned itself to oblivion unless they can attract a entirely new audience
All sounds like a company facing their game going under and tries a shot at a very different business model.
Loved the metals but gave up when they started with BAD quality PVC at very high prices.
Last I had contact with PP products was with their range being sold in high discount bins at Salute.
No interest in whats coming whatsoever so yeah sad to see this happen with PP.
Best of luck I guess.
Also it seems like each faction will start at a $200 too, which seems like a decent deal for a small army in a box, but a steep buy-in for new players. I hope there's still some sort of $50 option for people that want to dip their toe in the water.
Thing is, back in early to mid life of mk2 this was still considered a skimish game, then players pushed for bigger forces to compensate for the bad state 40k 7th edition was in, and thus turning warmahordes into an army game.
The 200USD 50p Starter contains 22 models, that is above the skirmish realm, and 75p/100p is 37/38 models, that is a small army in the scale this game is in. Plus, army game starter forces are usualy in the 100-200USD bracket.
They would need to add an even lower bracket of 25p and make it a viable gameplay realm outside the beginner stages, so that a 25p force would be as an example; 1 caster, 2 light jacks/beasts, one 4 man unit and one solo, and sold THAT as a beginner bundle instead of the 22 model bundle, for options at 100USD or below boxes to exist.
It wasn't just people compensating though. It was the natural evolution of a game where the armies kept getting more models and fans of those armies kept buying them.
If you've a game system that can only use 5 models a game, but you've got 30 models per faction that means the bulk of a persons collection isn't being used. That's fine in something like Magic the Gathering because a game or series of games might take 10-30 mins. In a 2-4 hour wargame it might mean you can only use one army a week.
So people wanted bigger games so they could put down more of what they had and what they liked.
IT doesn't always go that way - Infinity has managed to avoid it; but PP didn't avoid it. Honestly I think had their move into plastics worked and had things not hit a wall at MK3; I would imagine that we'd now be looking at a game that had become closer to a full wargame. Perhaps even a game mode that abandoned the caster system to allow for a much larger army focus - ergo multiple casts; powering jacks and beasts without having to use focus/fury (perhaps shifting that to a booster instead of the core) so that players could functionally run armies.
It's just Warmachine got half way and then hit a roadblock
As for steep buy-in price I think they are steep, but at the same time its keeping the SKU bloat down and it is honestly getting close to what GW charges for army packs and such (though GW charges that much for 2 armies that you then have to either play swaps with or sell on half of it ).
They aren't alone, Dystopian Wars, Dropzone, even Infinity has an expensive army pack now. The SKU issue is one where the market has grown, there's way more games but highstreet stores and distributors have not grown in kind. So a store doesn't want 100s of boxes per game to stock, the distributors don't want it either. So companies either have to all go super small skirmish; or they have to bundle things up into more expensive boxed sets for the highstreet and 3rd parties and then rely on that and/or direct mailing for individual or smaller sets. It 100% does put the entry prices up. In theory you might cope with that by doing what GW has done with things like Killteam and Warcry
Overread wrote: It wasn't just people compensating though. It was the natural evolution of a game where the armies kept getting more models and fans of those armies kept buying them.
If you've a game system that can only use 5 models a game, but you've got 30 models per faction that means the bulk of a persons collection isn't being used. That's fine in something like Magic the Gathering because a game or series of games might take 10-30 mins. In a 2-4 hour wargame it might mean you can only use one army a week.
So people wanted bigger games so they could put down more of what they had and what they liked.
IT doesn't always go that way - Infinity has managed to avoid it; but PP didn't avoid it. Honestly I think had their move into plastics worked and had things not hit a wall at MK3; I would imagine that we'd now be looking at a game that had become closer to a full wargame. Perhaps even a game mode that abandoned the caster system to allow for a much larger army focus - ergo multiple casts; powering jacks and beasts without having to use focus/fury (perhaps shifting that to a booster instead of the core) so that players could functionally run armies.
It's just Warmachine got half way and then hit a roadblock
As for steep buy-in price I think they are steep, but at the same time its keeping the SKU bloat down and it is honestly getting close to what GW charges for army packs and such (though GW charges that much for 2 armies that you then have to either play swaps with or sell on half of it ).
They aren't alone, Dystopian Wars, Dropzone, even Infinity has an expensive army pack now. The SKU issue is one where the market has grown, there's way more games but highstreet stores and distributors have not grown in kind. So a store doesn't want 100s of boxes per game to stock, the distributors don't want it either. So companies either have to all go super small skirmish; or they have to bundle things up into more expensive boxed sets for the highstreet and 3rd parties and then rely on that and/or direct mailing for individual or smaller sets. It 100% does put the entry prices up. In theory you might cope with that by doing what GW has done with things like Killteam and Warcry
I wonder what would be the status today, if when PP was popular, they started converting things to hips rather than dodgy PVC... I mean an army box set with good quality hips would probably sell quite well.
PP's fall was on multiple fronts, the PVC was one in a string of mistakes/strange choices/bad choices that led to their very sudden downfall. It was all those things happening in a short span of time; so fixing one might not have changed things all that much.
Then compounded by GW having an upswing at the same time.
Personally my hope is that this is PP doing a rescue of Warmachine. Accepting that they can't keep with what they've had and that they are currently a small firm with a big game on their hands and that they can't cope. Meanwhile their rescue game of Warcaster hit the wall that was Corona and has had a stunted start that likely isn't where it should be after 2 years. They aren't alone in that, but Dystopian Wars is bolted onto Wayland Games, so they can soak a slow period because they've got the store bringing in reliable income.
PP have their RPG, Minicrate, Apoc and such to steady their boat, but not in the same way as those all put pressure on production alongside Warmachine.
MK4 is the rescue. If it works out well and if these changes to production can be done smoothly it might well be what PP needs to start turning the numbers around and regrow Warmachine again.
I think many fans also recognise this; that range adjustments and such just have to happen for the game to steady itself and go from one of dwindling fanbase to one of growing fanbase; and that PP just does not have a massive pool of resources to throw at it like GW might to do a rescue.
Oh, dear... I had skipped over the section about the app, because I have no interest in it. So, the app is required to play the game, there's no physical rulebook and no access to unit rules outside the app... So, yeah, I'm out.
There's a lot of sense in a digital-only ruleset - printing and shipping paper books is very expensive - but going app-only is a step too far for this old soldier.
For one thing, upkeep of an app isn't free, and I think we've all had enough experiences of janky, resource-hogging, or unstable software to know what a pain in the ass that can be. With PP seemingly reduced to skeleton-crew operation, can it be relied on that they will continue to be able to hire folks to work on it?
Agamemnon2 wrote: There's a lot of sense in a digital-only ruleset - printing and shipping paper books is very expensive - but going app-only is a step too far for this old soldier.
For one thing, upkeep of an app isn't free, and I think we've all had enough experiences of janky, resource-hogging, or unstable software to know what a pain in the ass that can be. With PP seemingly reduced to skeleton-crew operation, can it be relied on that they will continue to be able to hire folks to work on it?
PDFs and digital Download could have been a good option to avoid the paper production.
I think that going app, 3dprint etc is their way to reduce production costs, so the skeletal team may even be further reduced once the physical production is deleted from the company.
I would hope that PP could look toward book printing after things take off again. I just think there's likely so little movement of their core Warmachine product right now and so much shipping mess that PP is basically almost back to small starter firm in terms of relaunching warmachine
jullevi wrote: Interestingly enough, just a moment earlier I wondered if Forgeworld should start selling 3D printed models, at least for part of the range.
Lets just note that PP isn't selling STLs; they are simply using 3D print as manufacture. The customer will still be buying a box of models to put together from the highstreet shelf. The only real change will be you might have to adjust how you clean things up - going from mould lines to dimples on the model. The worst would be if their supports they use end up being chunky/damaging and thus creating a lot of marking. The second issue would be if parting doesn't account for things like high details and muted detail when facing the build plate.
jullevi wrote: Interestingly enough, just a moment earlier I wondered if Forgeworld should start selling 3D printed models, at least for part of the range.
If they did that, I feel like the STLs would cost at least three times of what the actual model would cost if you just bought it from them. That just seems like how they would go about it.
jullevi wrote: Interestingly enough, just a moment earlier I wondered if Forgeworld should start selling 3D printed models, at least for part of the range.
If they did that, I feel like the STLs would cost at least three times of what the actual model would cost if you just bought it from them. That just seems like how they would go about it.
jullevi wrote: Interestingly enough, just a moment earlier I wondered if Forgeworld should start selling 3D printed models, at least for part of the range.
If they did that, I feel like the STLs would cost at least three times of what the actual model would cost if you just bought it from them. That just seems like how they would go about it.
I didn't mean STLs but physical, printed models.
Thing is that just doesn't work for GW. 3D printing, per machine, is slower than cast resin or metal and its super slow compared to injection moulded plastic. GW also has lots of casting machines and to get the same volume of casting from 3D printers they'd have to take up even more space with 3D printing machines. That's one big issue for 3D printing when you scale up - space and upkeep. You end up with a lot of machines to get the same throughput of production and that means more space and more staff to oversee those machines and keep them going. Not to mention that space ideally need to be temperature regulated (during the heatwave we've had several merchants had to simply stop printing because temperatures got too high to print and they couldn't afford to run or didn't have cooling systems in place).
PP are going for 3D printing because its going to let them setup local manufacture at a super cheap rate and their demand is currently very low. They just don't have the distribution infrastructure nor the upfront money to setup Siocast or other systems to make it work for them for the current sales rate of Warmachine.
It's a sensible move that hopefully is aimed at PP bringing Warmachine back on the up without loading themselves up with a lot of high debt and/or high running costs before their market, hopefully regrows.
If things go well they could even end up going back to cast production after the range recovers and gets high on sales again.
If things go well they could even end up going back to cast production after the range recovers and gets high on sales again.
If this works,* they have little incentive to change back. Why would they eat their profits retooling (again!), this time for a more expensive production type, and hope their new playerbase is willing to soak another change?
*and I honestly hope it doesn't work. Sorry, no malice, but this isn't a direction I want the industry to be nudged.
If things go well they could even end up going back to cast production after the range recovers and gets high on sales again.
If this works,* they have little incentive to change back. Why would they eat their profits retooling (again!), this time for a more expensive production type, and hope their new playerbase is willing to soak another change?
*and I honestly hope it doesn't work. Sorry, no malice, but this isn't a direction I want the industry to be nudged.
Why, if I may ask? Centralized production is clearly showing its issues, lately.
If things go well they could even end up going back to cast production after the range recovers and gets high on sales again.
If this works,* they have little incentive to change back. Why would they eat their profits retooling (again!), this time for a more expensive production type, and hope their new playerbase is willing to soak another change?
*and I honestly hope it doesn't work. Sorry, no malice, but this isn't a direction I want the industry to be nudged.
Why, if I may ask? Centralized production is clearly showing its issues, lately.
I know you are talking about the industry but would just like to add that PP always had production and distribution issues since I can remember. Things sold out fast and took months to get to Europe after that etc.
If things go well they could even end up going back to cast production after the range recovers and gets high on sales again.
If this works,* they have little incentive to change back. Why would they eat their profits retooling (again!), this time for a more expensive production type, and hope their new playerbase is willing to soak another change?
*and I honestly hope it doesn't work. Sorry, no malice, but this isn't a direction I want the industry to be nudged.
Why, if I may ask? Centralized production is clearly showing its issues, lately.
What? Why would you even think that was directed at regional production facilities?
I was thinking more about more tabletop games being built around App-centric nonsense, effectively voiding their existing model range, and going for unskilled (low pay) 3d printer minders rather than a skilled (and hopefully better paid) work staff. And the quality issues of 3d printing over proper casting, as well as future quantity bottlenecks.
'Centralized production' doesn't even make it on the list of concerns, especially not with PP's track record of awful shipping- they'd be hard pressed to be much worse than they already are at that (even within the continental US they're awful). Though that set, their regional facility plans are dependent on future agreements, so I don't even know if they'll manage it. Past distribution in Europe didn't go very well, or so I'm told, so that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their ability to manage local printer farms.
If this works,* they have little incentive to change back.
I don't know about that. 3d printing doesn't scale particularly well with volume right now. What works for a boutique franchise revival might not work for a popular product stores actually want on their shelves.
RE 3D printed resin models brings being brittle, depends on what resin you use. There is stuff on the market now that is pretty durable, has a good amount of flex to it where things don't just snap if mishandled. There's some videos demonstrating this where people are forcefully throwing 3D printed resin models on the floor trying to break them and they remain intact after several bouts of heavy abuse.
Everything mentioned thus far, specifically 3D-printed models, PDF''s, and apps, as well as the dead in the water playstyle for legends models means that Warmahordes will never again be played by me. I love the setting and am backing the RPG Kickstarters, but this.... not for this dude.
If this works,* they have little incentive to change back.
I don't know about that. 3d printing doesn't scale particularly well with volume right now. What works for a boutique franchise revival might not work for a popular product stores actually want on their shelves.
You may well be right. In which case they're not solving the problem, just putting off their crisis and pretending everything is fine. They're making a huge change and basically doing it with the tattered remnants of a fanbase that may not even like the new direction. That's rough.
anab0lic wrote: RE 3D printed resin models brings being brittle, depends on what resin you use. There is stuff on the market now that is pretty durable, has a good amount of flex to it where things don't just snap if mishandled. There's some videos demonstrating this where people are forcefully throwing 3D printed resin models on the floor trying to break them and they remain intact after several bouts of heavy abuse.
Which brings another concern. Looking at PP past they seem to favour errr dubious quality casting materials.
A company in this position of cutting costs, deleting Production and poor quality control track record does raise many concerns about the quality you will probably get. Mind we know prices will remain high though.
For me the biggest blow is the current model range being abandoned, thats never good IMO.
jullevi wrote: Interestingly enough, just a moment earlier I wondered if Forgeworld should start selling 3D printed models, at least for part of the range.
If they did that, I feel like the STLs would cost at least three times of what the actual model would cost if you just bought it from them. That just seems like how they would go about it.
I didn't mean STLs but physical, printed models.
Thing is that just doesn't work for GW.
Your points aren't wrong, but the posters before you were talking about Forge World resin, not GW plastic being replaced by 3d prints.
RazorEdge wrote: No printed Books and Profile Cards for WM MkIV? This Game is DoA.
Pretty much everyone I knew who played MK2 had swapped over to digital by the end of the edition and the physical cards/books for MK3 just did not sell. Even slashed at big discounts they didn't move. Similarly A Song of Ice & Fire sells card packs, but they're outdated by rules updates so quickly that very few people bother.
It is interesting to see the contrast between GW and PP threads when it comes to the, "GW need to fully digitalise VS If PP go digital only it's dead."
I think the GW thread has people asking for a digital option (which would indeed be good) as there are folk that prefer it (especially if they need 4 or 5 books to play)
but given an either or situation i'd go for books over apps (but then i'm no doubt on the upper end of the age profile on here)
If things go well they could even end up going back to cast production after the range recovers and gets high on sales again.
If this works,* they have little incentive to change back. Why would they eat their profits retooling (again!), this time for a more expensive production type, and hope their new playerbase is willing to soak another change?
*and I honestly hope it doesn't work. Sorry, no malice, but this isn't a direction I want the industry to be nudged.
Why, if I may ask? Centralized production is clearly showing its issues, lately.
What? Why would you even think that was directed at regional production facilities?
I mean... because what you quoted is talking about cast production, and not the app?
RazorEdge wrote: No printed Books and Profile Cards for WM MkIV? This Game is DoA.
Pretty much everyone I knew who played MK2 had swapped over to digital by the end of the edition and the physical cards/books for MK3 just did not sell. Even slashed at big discounts they didn't move. Similarly A Song of Ice & Fire sells card packs, but they're outdated by rules updates so quickly that very few people bother.
It is interesting to see the contrast between GW and PP threads when it comes to the, "GW need to fully digitalise VS If PP go digital only it's dead."
There is a distinct difference between 'GW shouldn't have stopped producing digital _books_' and 'PP shouldn't go digital _app_ only.'
Its downright weird to pretend those are the same.
If things go well they could even end up going back to cast production after the range recovers and gets high on sales again.
If this works,* they have little incentive to change back. Why would they eat their profits retooling (again!), this time for a more expensive production type, and hope their new playerbase is willing to soak another change?
*and I honestly hope it doesn't work. Sorry, no malice, but this isn't a direction I want the industry to be nudged.
Why, if I may ask? Centralized production is clearly showing its issues, lately.
What? Why would you even think that was directed at regional production facilities?
I mean... because what you quoted is talking about cast production, and not the app?
'Centralized production' doesn't even make it on the list of concerns, especially not with PP's track record of awful shipping- they'd be hard pressed to be much worse than they already are at that (even within the continental US they're awful). Though that set, their regional facility plans are dependent on future agreements, so I don't even know if they'll manage it. Past distribution in Europe didn't go very well, or so I'm told, so that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their ability to manage local printer farms.
Distribution in Europe basically doesn't exist, as of now, and hasn't for some years. Even getting their mini crate stuff was an ordeal.
If things go well they could even end up going back to cast production after the range recovers and gets high on sales again.
If this works,* they have little incentive to change back. Why would they eat their profits retooling (again!), this time for a more expensive production type, and hope their new playerbase is willing to soak another change?
*and I honestly hope it doesn't work. Sorry, no malice, but this isn't a direction I want the industry to be nudged.
Why, if I may ask? Centralized production is clearly showing its issues, lately.
What? Why would you even think that was directed at regional production facilities?
I mean... because what you quoted is talking about cast production, and not the app?
Right. production via 3d printer. Not localized production.
And when asked for clarification I went into detail. Just because the app was the first thing I mentioned doesn't mean that was the end.
'Centralized production' doesn't even make it on the list of concerns, especially not with PP's track record of awful shipping- they'd be hard pressed to be much worse than they already are at that (even within the continental US they're awful). Though that set, their regional facility plans are dependent on future agreements, so I don't even know if they'll manage it. Past distribution in Europe didn't go very well, or so I'm told, so that doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their ability to manage local printer farms.
Distribution in Europe basically doesn't exist, as of now, and hasn't for some years. Even getting their mini crate stuff was an ordeal.
Right? So... do you really think they'll manage their pipe dream here?
Voss wrote: Right. production via 3d printer. Not localized production.
And when asked for clarification I went into detail. Just because the app was the first thing I mentioned doesn't mean that was the end.
From what I understand, the main reasons for them to go into 3d printing is operational cost and distribution, and they kinda go hand in hand.
I don't know what to think about the app, but at least it should have the option of printing stuff down.
Right? So... do you really think they'll manage their pipe dream here?
How, exactly, could it be worse than it is now, given there's esentially no distribution whatsoever in the EU? 3d printing farms are not exactly rocket science, and they are actually both cheaper and much less complicated than centralized logistics, as you cut completely off the whole "moving stuff all around the world" part of the equation.
PP been legendary bad with stocks and distribution, I lost track how many times I gave up on chasing for certain minis that were always out of stock. What a torture thinking back on that.
Their localised studio opening seems another unclear thing they wrote about 3d printing... they dont sound particularly that well informed.... they did mentioned a lot of times quality will improve in the future guys... as if errr they know high end 3d printing on small 28mm miniatures tends to be pricy/slow, so for now its a compromise in quality XD XD
BTW I wonder whats going to happen to their paints... maybe sell it to Duncan and call it - paint like you have a pair.
I'm not entirely sure that setting up multiple regional commercial level printer farms which then need QA, prep, pick and pack facilities (at minimum) before hand off to a local logistics partner is better and or cheaper than what games companies already have?
Have PP just discovered Shapeways?
And will I need to purchase an app in order to see if I even like playing the new game?
The more I read the more I think this level of communication is somehow geared for a final implosion (well guys we tried but our plan was just a step too far. Sorry, it was a fun ride).
I've kind of come to terms with the Legacy content because... honestly.... Warmachine needs to thrive on the kitchen table again. In a lot of ways its probably pretty healthy to have an environment like Prime for the tournament crowd to chase while also having a huge pile of Legacy content that players want to make use of to keep demand on an Unlimited format. Do I think Unlimited events will really be a thing? Not at all, but I think having players happy to play their Unlimited army will be a nice thing to keep the community's worst tendencies in check.
Long term, every competitive game burns out its players. The difference between Warmachine and a lot of similar games like Magic or 40k, is that those games continue to thrive with casual environments that keep players engaged when they fall behind and attract new players who need a less rigid meta to find their feet in.
Personally, I'll have a Prime army, but I'm way past the point of caring if people want to bring an Unlimited army or proxy something or whatever. I don't really care if Unlimited is competitive or whatever; as long as it exists and players are willing to play against players with old stuff, it serves its purpose. If players are NOT willing to play in Unlimited.... well, then the community is probably going to continue to strangle itself until it gets what it deserves.
Personally I'm willing ot see where PP goes with these ideas. They are not what I want, they are not ideal and they are not perfect. but I'll take it if it means Warmachine survives and has a decent chance at rebuilding and perhaps thriving again; over the alternative which I think is PP just having to drop the game entirely due to lack of sales. We don't have the raw data, but I'm willing to bet sales of Warmachine are not on the up and at best are level or dipping. Pandemic might have had an upswing, but I just think PP is losing Warmachine customers and not replacing them right now. It's "Old World" situation and it needs a shake up.
So I'll take PP using some different methods to allow them to revamp things much cheaper. Cutting out supply lines for books and models is not a bad move considering the mess international shipping is in right now and considering that its always been an issue for PP in the past. This might well be the stop-gap PP needs to restore sales; to get numbers up; to get the game back on shelves and back in gaming groups to generate income to buy new casting machines; to expand their team etc...
And if not perhaps its enough that it allows PP's creative team to keep making new models and to keep the game supported even if it never takes off in a big way again. I'll honestly take all that over PP having to kill it off; or (even worse) PP over-investing and killing themselves. I'd hate to see them go the way of firms like Spartan Games.
jullevi wrote: Interestingly enough, just a moment earlier I wondered if Forgeworld should start selling 3D printed models, at least for part of the range.
If they did that, I feel like the STLs would cost at least three times of what the actual model would cost if you just bought it from them. That just seems like how they would go about it.
I didn't mean STLs but physical, printed models.
Thing is that just doesn't work for GW.
Your points aren't wrong, but the posters before you were talking about Forge World resin, not GW plastic being replaced by 3d prints.
Yep but even resin casting is faster than 3D printing. A single build plate for something like a tank, titan or dragon could take 24 hours or longer with 3D printing and it gives you 1 product per 1 machine. A bigger machine might let you get two or three off (depending on sizes). Again for smaller scale production 3D printing works great; but when you scale things up casting generally comes out on top for volume.
There is a distinct possibility that PP are hiding their lack of knowledge and accumen at dealing with distribution and production issues by pivoting to a shiny new production and distro model as an internal distraction as much as anything else.
Have they burnt too many bridges with their current partners?
I figure its the upfront costs and being burned in the past by factories in China/overseas. They don't want to revisit a plan that failed in the past and they perhaps don't have the money to hand to invest into Siocast machines off the back of current Warmachine sales.
It might just be they need a few years of the market settling; of sales and customers increasing in a meaningful way and of income from the game increasing before they can justify such expenditure.
Again we have to remember this isn't PP at the height of MK2 popularity. They've had years of dwindling customers, reducing fanbase, reducing and burning bridges with distribution and 3rd party retailers and even loss of staff at their end. This isn't the environment where its sensible to start throwing big investment money into it without at least trying to take a cheaper pathway to properly test the waters. The market is also WAY more flooded with products and complex than it was when PP started; where their competition was almost only GW. Today there are a lot of middleweight firms and the bottom end is chocked with 3D printing and that's after around 2 years of 3D printing being viable so that's got a lot of room to grow and mature
If this works,* they have little incentive to change back.
I don't know about that. 3d printing doesn't scale particularly well with volume right now. What works for a boutique franchise revival might not work for a popular product stores actually want on their shelves.
You may well be right. In which case they're not solving the problem, just putting off their crisis and pretending everything is fine. They're making a huge change and basically doing it with the tattered remnants of a fanbase that may not even like the new direction. That's rough.
To me, this looks like a gamble that you don't take if everything is fine as is. Maybe they don't have enough of a fanbase left to sustain them anyway. And both long time fans and new players often complain about the faction bloat that will be addressed by Squatting 90% of everything.
There's a bit of a problem with living lifestyle games in that they need to burn their game down every once in a while.
Magic has set this as an expectation and continuously plants seeds to replace the trees. Games Workshop does controlled burns. Privateer Press has let the forest overgrow and is now burning the whole thing down in one blazing inferno hoping to save what little there is left.
I read the entire article, and quite frankly, I think they’re pricing themselves out of reach.
$200 start up cost of JUST the models for one army. No books, no paper, just the models. Which might be of questionable quality. Sorry but I absolutely hate 3D prints. I’ve had several from many smaller operations and they range from horrible to mediocre.
Cleaning support nipples from a model is way more effort and work then mold lines on any other material. But that’s my experience so whatever.
The problem here is that it’s a $200 buy in and $175 for the rest of the army to 75.
That’s….ludicrous pricing?
To top it all off it’s app only and no print materials at all, and like War room before, no options to print your stuff.
Sorry but this has zero appeal. And trying to get new players into a game where your base cost darts at $260CAD? Good luck with that.
Overread wrote: I figure its the upfront costs and being burned in the past by factories in China/overseas. They don't want to revisit a plan that failed in the past and they perhaps don't have the money to hand to invest into Siocast machines off the back of current Warmachine sales.
Certainly that plays a part.
We've seen lot of Kickstarters that produced goods in China are asking (or demanding) more money from their backers AND taking huge losses because the prices both for transport and for production have skyrocketed. That cuts a massive hole in Privateer Press' plastic strategy.
3D printing has some real advantages- especially in smaller volume.
anab0lic wrote: RE 3D printed resin models brings being brittle, depends on what resin you use. There is stuff on the market now that is pretty durable, has a good amount of flex to it where things don't just snap if mishandled. There's some videos demonstrating this where people are forcefully throwing 3D printed resin models on the floor trying to break them and they remain intact after several bouts of heavy abuse.
Which brings another concern. Looking at PP past they seem to favour errr dubious quality casting materials.
A company in this position of cutting costs, deleting Production and poor quality control track record does raise many concerns about the quality you will probably get. Mind we know prices will remain high though.
For me the biggest blow is the current model range being abandoned, thats never good IMO.
Not entirely sure what the price difference is between default resin and the more durable stuff... perhaps someone could shed some light on this. They really need this reboot to have good initial reception though, cheaping out and producing models that get broken en route to being delivered to your house would not bode well for them... especially with how quick negative reviews spread online nowadays.
Really though, my prediction was that PP would team up with Mythic like they did for Mon Poc, which turned out to be a huge success. Using Mythics contacts to get everything made in china and also take advantage of Mythics marketing abilities, as well as Kickstarter, to launch a new edition and get a lot of new eyes on the product. I Honestly think that could have worked out well for them, even with splitting the profits. Though, this is Matt Wilson's baby, you can see the passion/emotion entwined in his writing in that article, its obvious that he still cares dearly for this game, perhaps he didn't want to share the responsibility of its success or failure with another entity , which is understandable.
Overread wrote: I figure its the upfront costs and being burned in the past by factories in China/overseas. They don't want to revisit a plan that failed in the past and they perhaps don't have the money to hand to invest into Siocast machines off the back of current Warmachine sales.
Certainly that plays a part.
We've seen lot of Kickstarters that produced goods in China are asking (or demanding) more money from their backers AND taking huge losses because the prices both for transport and for production have skyrocketed. That cuts a massive hole in Privateer Press' plastic strategy.
3D printing has some real advantages- especially in smaller volume.
In fairness for the KS that's because many of them started before/at the start of the Pandemic and since then the prices skyrocketed. When you consider that a lot of KS often run very tight margins to get a low price to get loads of customers; its understandable that many are suddenly having to ask for more or cut features or the estimated shipping is way higher than advertised. I honestly don't blame them, its really something they couldn't predict nor control and its hitting pretty much everyone. Even big names like GW are having issues getting stock moved around and that's for a big name doing regular releases on a weekly setup.
but yep I can 100% see why a firm which has had issues in the past; has a current franchise that's pretty big and doesn't appear to have lots of resources; would want to avoid the nightmare of international shipping as much as they can.
I'm sure their very weary of Siocast being a proprietary machine. Pivoting to a strategy reliant on one specific company is what burned them in the first place, even if at the moment it seems like a really great solution.
Overread wrote: I figure its the upfront costs and being burned in the past by factories in China/overseas. They don't want to revisit a plan that failed in the past and they perhaps don't have the money to hand to invest into Siocast machines off the back of current Warmachine sales.
Certainly that plays a part.
We've seen lot of Kickstarters that produced goods in China are asking (or demanding) more money from their backers AND taking huge losses because the prices both for transport and for production have skyrocketed. That cuts a massive hole in Privateer Press' plastic strategy.
3D printing has some real advantages- especially in smaller volume.
In fairness for the KS that's because many of them started before/at the start of the Pandemic and since then the prices skyrocketed. When you consider that a lot of KS often run very tight margins to get a low price to get loads of customers; its understandable that many are suddenly having to ask for more or cut features or the estimated shipping is way higher than advertised. I honestly don't blame them, its really something they couldn't predict nor control and its hitting pretty much everyone. Even big names like GW are having issues getting stock moved around and that's for a big name doing regular releases on a weekly setup.
but yep I can 100% see why a firm which has had issues in the past; has a current franchise that's pretty big and doesn't appear to have lots of resources; would want to avoid the nightmare of international shipping as much as they can.
I don't blame the Kickstarter companies for asking for more money (though some have done this far better than others). I just think it is indicative that business expenses for making games is going up.
Retail games also run on super thin margins, so we should be expecting price increases (or value decreases) all around.
They really need this reboot to have good initial reception though, cheaping out and producing models that get broken en route to being delivered to your house would not bode well for them... especially with how quick negative reviews spread online nowadays.
They NEED to have a really strong rollout on this.
If the new material is crap and stuff is broken all to hell- if it goes like Games Workshop's Finecast rollout- then Privateer Press is finished.
Really though, my prediction was that PP would team up with Mythic like they did for Mon Poc, which turned out to be a huge success. Using Mythics contacts to get everything made in china and also take advantage of Mythics marketing abilities, as well as Kickstarter, to launch a new edition and get a lot of new eyes on the product. I Honestly think that could have worked out well for them, even with splitting the profits. Though, this is Matt Wilson's baby, you can see the passion/emotion entwined in his writing in that article, its obvious that he still cares dearly for this game, perhaps he didn't want to share the responsibility of its success or failure with another entity , which is understandable.
I wonder if that's still going well behind the scenes. PP moved to plastic because the prices of tin fluctuated- right now the prices on Chinese plastic manufacturing are fluctuating unreliably as well.
I think the switch to 3D print production is a good idea, except for one issue.
I own a 3D printer. I don't want to buy a box of 3D printed parts, I want to buy an STL - perhaps even at a premium, given its multiple use - and handle my own production to my own demand. That's why I bought a 3D printer in the first place!
This all makes sense given their strategic footing. It's a poorly capitalized company facing threats from above in the form of much larger organizations and below with an increasing proliferation of more nimble competitors.
I wish them luck, but I thought the shot at GW was kind of gross. GW has advantages to be sure, but they also made wise investments. They moved to digital design workflows early on, and invested in their own manufacturing capabilities which has given them more control, better margins, and a superior product.
At the height of its popularity PP was trying to make a AAA-quality game and the founder was in LA trying to make movies. They took their eye off the ball and invested poorly.
Psychopomp wrote:I think the switch to 3D print production is a good idea, except for one issue.
I own a 3D printer. I don't want to buy a box of 3D printed parts, I want to buy an STL - perhaps even at a premium, given its multiple use - and handle my own production to my own demand. That's why I bought a 3D printer in the first place!
Which is why it's important to keep in mind this following quote :
LunarSol wrote:I think some of the confusion is that people see 3D printing and assume we're talking about selling STL files and making people print them themselves. That's not at all what's happening here.
Because that's the point : it's not "3D printing community friendly", it's all about minimizing their costs at their level and putting it all on others - the hypothetical fools who would want to invest in this new "3d printing distribution service".
I think the most blatant weak point in this "new strategy" is the following key question : who would like to still invest in distributing PP products that way, given all their spectacular failures in the past AND the current conjuncture ? That's NFT crypto bro level of belief, here.
Hard pass for me. It really looks like there's only a skeleton left of Privateer Press and it's just trying to milk a thin cow with only bones under the skin to see how much milk they can get before it finally dies. I know I'm really harsh here, but honestly I can't see it otherwise.
Thing is who has to invest into it? Chances are PP will contract with people who are already running 3D printing firms. All PP has to do is ensure those firms can get printed material for packaging.
After that the game elements are either your standard dice, terrain and rulers and such (sold everywhere); the app for all the rules.
So in theory this is really low investment. By using local hubs PP can sell things potentially directly through their website via the local hubs or those local hubs can sell direct through their own channels. PP can cut out the retailers and sell direct; then they can also use what relationships they do still have - eg in the UK they still have places like Wayland and Firestorm - both of which are big and far reaching - to keep products on the shelf.
Yes they most likely do have to rebuild bridges and relationships; but if they can already move manufacture around they might be able to supply stores direct without having to go through a distributor. Because now the product is being made in the same country rather than half a world away and such.
There is great potential here IF they can manage it right .
Overread wrote: Thing is who has to invest into it? Chances are PP will contract with people who are already running 3D printing firms.
Yeah, and why would these people have to bother with Privateer Press at all ? Paying for a brand that's worth nothing nowadays ?
Heh, better to keep using .stl files from patreons and the likes, thanks. It's certainly much cheaper and less bothersome that way to me.
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There is great potential here IF they can manage it right .
Thing is, when you keep the same head at the top, it won't suddenly change its way because you hope it will manage it right.
It just won't happen. They're the same who did all the failures of the past. Why would you think they'll do great in the future ? And most importantly : why would anyone having experienced these failures want to give them a second chance at all ? Especially when the community left is so small and meaningless on the miniature wargame market now...
Psychopomp wrote: I think the switch to 3D print production is a good idea, except for one issue.
I own a 3D printer. I don't want to buy a box of 3D printed parts, I want to buy an STL - perhaps even at a premium, given its multiple use - and handle my own production to my own demand. That's why I bought a 3D printer in the first place!
So what you're asking for, at heart, is the ability to buy one Warjack, with all loadout options (because that's a thing now) and then be able to produce as many as you like for yourself and your friends ad infinitum.
Given PP are not a 3D sculptor making their work available online for a fee or via Patreon or similar, but a production company that makes a substantial percentage of its income from the retail and wholesale of miniatures, how much of a premium do you think they'd need to charge to cover themselves and maintain any hope of sustainability?
Psychopomp wrote: I think the switch to 3D print production is a good idea, except for one issue.
I own a 3D printer. I don't want to buy a box of 3D printed parts, I want to buy an STL - perhaps even at a premium, given its multiple use - and handle my own production to my own demand. That's why I bought a 3D printer in the first place!
So what you're asking for, at heart, is the ability to buy one Warjack, with all loadout options (because that's a thing now) and then be able to produce as many as you like for yourself and your friends ad infinitum.
Given PP are not a 3D sculptor making their work available online for a fee or via Patreon or similar, but a production company that makes a substantial percentage of its income from the retail and wholesale of miniatures, how much of a premium do you think they'd need to charge to cover themselves and maintain any hope of sustainability?
And that's why this new strategy will fail miserably.
Because whatever price they will ask for the "right to print their premium branded miniature", it will be way too much for what it's worth.
People don't seem to understand just how massive the competition is on the market of 3D printing files nowadays.
Azreal13 wrote: What new strategy? Making miniatures and selling them? You know that it's the production method and not the distribution methods that's changing?
Yes, exactly, that's the point. Why do you think GW did not it before, like many others ?
Because they know that that way, the brand loses value.
That's the price of making others produce for you "to reduce costs". You lose control. Not even talking about the massive repercussions when lower quality is produced by these new distributions...you think PP will have the ressources to control quality on every of them ? Hah ! Fat chance.
Azreal13 wrote: Well my impression was that they're setting up their own facilities, so, if that's the case, yes I do.
Then you didn't know Spartan Games when they were around.
Anyway, so far, it's just thin air. If you think it's enough to invest in it for the future...well, good luck to you, that's all I can say.
Yes, it's "thin air"...because it's an announcement of intentions.
There is one more aspect to 3D printing production that bears mentioning: we will have the ability to replicate our production capabilities locally in overseas markets, solving the current issues around the accessibility of WARMACHINE products internationally. We are currently exploring several options that will allow us to create a facility in Europe, for instance, that will supply the miniatures within the EU, avoiding costly shipping expenses and tariffs, and ensuring quick and reliable access to the products. And in theory, we can do this everywhere.
So it doesn't look like they want to just contract it out. They want to establish their own facilities.
It's a little more than intentions given they're having product available at GenCon with a full launch in a couple months. They've obviously got something going already, though they're also clearly broadcasting some hopeful growth strategies.
Azreal13 wrote: Oh, are we allowed to use completely unrelated things to support our argument?
Pineapple, bus, cat flap.
I win!
Heh, fair enough !
But seriously, honestly...why would you trust a company that failed so much with their previous edition and yet kept doubling down on it as it kept sinking, when they come back with this "new edition" out of their hat like nothing happened ?
That's really the key problem here. All retailers selling Warmachine / Horde have been quite hurt because of that, but now it's okay, everything will be fine with this whole new game with new production methods ? No, honestly, I just can't see it. I can't see them trusting PP on this one and help them selling.
But maybe that's because I'm a very old player who have known Warmachine / Horde in its golden age and was badly hurt when it fell so hard. Maybe new players who never knew that will be okay and they'll have a whole wave of new retailers happy to do business with them for the first time.
In some ways, I wish they hadn't mentioned 3d printing at all. They could've just said "new resin production methods" and still done what they plan on doing, and there wouldn't be as much misinformed reaction to it. As has been stated by them, and in this thread over and over again, they are not distributing digital files to be printed by end consumers. They are not doing the Patreon-style or MyMiniFactory thing. They're just replacing their traditional resin casting with direct 3d printing. I wouldn't be surprised that had they not said anything about it, when the final products got out people for the most part wouldn't have known the difference.
I think it's an interesting strategy, and time will tell whether PP can pull it off. I think there's potential for it to be successful. But at the same time, I also recognize that PP has, in the past, made some other missteps and so whether or not they can pull this off is an open question for sure. There are other smaller companies (and even some semi-medium ones) that already do this, and fairly successfully, so it's not as big a "shot in the dark" as it may seem.
I was just on the verge of starting Trollbloods, so I've kinda got a forced wait and see period regardless.
I'll probably still go ahead and fill out a (current edition) 25pt force to give me something to muck about with, mostly for weeks when there's an odd number of a preferred game and I can flex into playing something else, but I'll be cautious about expansion. Not because I'm in the least bothered about playing a dead game (Guild Ball is still my game of choice) but I won't be buying existing models until I know they're useful.
I think it's an interesting strategy, and time will tell whether PP can pull it off. I think there's potential for it to be successful. But at the same time, I also recognize that PP has, in the past, made some other missteps and so whether or not they can pull this off is an open question for sure. There are other smaller companies (and even some semi-medium ones) that already do this, and fairly successfully, so it's not as big a "shot in the dark" as it may seem.
Hmmm...well, if PP aknowledge that they're not a major player in miniature wargames like they were in the past and they're "just" another small company, I recognize that yes, they can.
But I really don't think they are that humbled by their previous experience and still believe their brand is so popular they can still sell it the same price GW charges their customers.
I think it's an interesting strategy, and time will tell whether PP can pull it off. I think there's potential for it to be successful. But at the same time, I also recognize that PP has, in the past, made some other missteps and so whether or not they can pull this off is an open question for sure. There are other smaller companies (and even some semi-medium ones) that already do this, and fairly successfully, so it's not as big a "shot in the dark" as it may seem.
Hmmm...well, if PP aknowledge that they're not a major player in miniature wargames like they were in the past and they're "just" another small company, I recognize that yes, they can.
But I really don't think they are that humbled by their previous experience and still believe their brand is so popular they can still sell it the same price GW charges their customers.
I'm not gonna disagree with you on the ego problem that you highlight. Having known several folks who worked there and heard stories about upper management, there definitely seemed to be a "we can do no wrong" kind of attitude. Of course, since then, the company's been chopped down to like 1/3 the size it was, so maybe they have learned something, maybe not. I guess time will tell.
So what you're asking for, at heart, is the ability to buy one Warjack, with all loadout options (because that's a thing now) and then be able to produce as many as you like for yourself and your friends ad infinitum.
Given PP are not a 3D sculptor making their work available online for a fee or via Patreon or similar, but a production company that makes a substantial percentage of its income from the retail and wholesale of miniatures, how much of a premium do you think they'd need to charge to cover themselves and maintain any hope of sustainability?
Yes, that is what I want, and I acknowledge that. That is why I've switched over to miniature-agnostic rulesets and most of my hobby spending (though not all) is via Patreon and MyMiniFactory (and Cults3D, CGTrade, etc, etc) these days.
My point is, with a digital only rules release and 3D print production...they're not offering me anything over the systems I'm spending money on these days other than the inconvenience of buying THEIR prints, one at a time, at a significant premium compared to other small-shop manufacturers working in other mediums. As such, I'm very unlikely to come back to Warmahordes unless there's also the option to purchase STLs, because I've already got more systems than I can get to these days that offer that convenience.
I'm pointing out a possible challenge with this new setup, and acknowledging that I don't have an answer for it. I don't think they could maintain the overhead required to remain a physical production company and sell the STLs for my use. However, the solution isn't going to be to try and sell me a starter army that they printed for approximately 2 1/2 months of my Patreon fees, because I'm not interested. I can do 3D printed miniature gaming better with other systems already.
I think it's an interesting strategy, and time will tell whether PP can pull it off. I think there's potential for it to be successful. But at the same time, I also recognize that PP has, in the past, made some other missteps and so whether or not they can pull this off is an open question for sure. There are other smaller companies (and even some semi-medium ones) that already do this, and fairly successfully, so it's not as big a "shot in the dark" as it may seem.
Hmmm...well, if PP aknowledge that they're not a major player in miniature wargames like they were in the past and they're "just" another small company, I recognize that yes, they can.
But I really don't think they are that humbled by their previous experience and still believe their brand is so popular they can still sell it the same price GW charges their customers.
Frankly I doubt they're even a "small" company by now, they seem to have basically no customers.
Rules drop imminent... could we see alternate activations for the first time in WM?
Also, just confirmed by the dev of the app, that there will be a function to print the stats cards out for those who are opposed to app use in their wargames.
Yep but even resin casting is faster than 3D printing. A single build plate for something like a tank, titan or dragon could take 24 hours or longer with 3D printing and it gives you 1 product per 1 machine. A bigger machine might let you get two or three off (depending on sizes). Again for smaller scale production 3D printing works great; but when you scale things up casting generally comes out on top for volume.
True, though 3d printing would help with some of Forgeworld's infamous problems such as worn-out molds, broken or lost masters, mold slips and warps making castings unusable, and so on. And it would allow certain components to be produced with more undercuts or three-dimensional structure since there's no requirement for the piece to be removable from a silicone mold. I would love to know if a large-format 3D printer could print a titan in a comparable time to how they're currently cast by hand (which is in itself a process with an enormous amount of downtime and fiddly bits), but FW doesn't share the kind of data about their production process that would make the comparison possible to calculate.
I own a 3D printer. I don't want to buy a box of 3D printed parts, I want to buy an STL - perhaps even at a premium, given its multiple use - and handle my own production to my own demand.
Realistically, the only STLs you'll ever get are going to come from people with absolutely no means of exploiting them, or from charity. No one else will ever sell you the hen.
anab0lic wrote: RE 3D printed resin models brings being brittle, depends on what resin you use. There is stuff on the market now that is pretty durable, has a good amount of flex to it where things don't just snap if mishandled. There's some videos demonstrating this where people are forcefully throwing 3D printed resin models on the floor trying to break them and they remain intact after several bouts of heavy abuse.
Which brings another concern. Looking at PP past they seem to favour errr dubious quality casting materials.
A company in this position of cutting costs, deleting Production and poor quality control track record does raise many concerns about the quality you will probably get. Mind we know prices will remain high though.
For me the biggest blow is the current model range being abandoned, thats never good IMO.
Not entirely sure what the price difference is between default resin and the more durable stuff... perhaps someone could shed some light on this. They really need this reboot to have good initial reception though, cheaping out and producing models that get broken en route to being delivered to your house would not bode well for them... especially with how quick negative reviews spread online nowadays.
About twice as much in the consumer market. $40/Liter for regular stuff that you'd use for high detail then $60-$100 for the more durable depending on what you want. The most expensive on that list can survive vulcanization but it's probably not what you'd use for wargaming, but I've not tried it as I've never had a need.
PP are where they are due to their past mistakes. With that in mind I’m not sure what else they could have done other than this, but so much needs to go right with this plan in order for it to be a success. The odds of it all coming together are hugely slim.
Getting the app to work smoothly for everything they want to do with it is an endeavour in itself that cannot be underestimated. It’s a big step beyond what they’ve done up until now, and as there’s no printed media, it is absolutely critical. Even a delayed release (which is pretty normal for even simple apps) will kill them.
Full manufacturing via 3d printing. I’m not seeing it being capable of doing the volume needed IF they are successful. If the game is great and inspiring and again they can’t get product onto shelves quickly enough then they’re screwed. I mean they’re releasing in a few months and they’re “currently exploring options a create a facility in Europe”. Those 3D printers should be going Brrrr right now, not being explored for some indeterminate time in the future.
After reading through everything, here and elsewhere, the largest disadvantages sound like it takes hours to print anything and it will need lots of expensive first world employees to manage and maintain vast numbers of machines, clean the resin, and UV bake the model, even more so because this will be de-centralised and local to an area meaning many of the employees and pieces of equipment, such as ventilation, will be doubled up.
A PVC cast machine just spits out sprues non stop on the other hand and can be tossed straight into the box. PVC is also better in pretty much every way for hobbyists.
I think this might make some sense currently with shipping costs being astronomic, and material costs skyrocketing.
But if prices for shipping and materials crater back to where they were, very cheap, then this doesn't seem worth it.
So what you're asking for, at heart, is the ability to buy one Warjack, with all loadout options (because that's a thing now) and then be able to produce as many as you like for yourself and your friends ad infinitum.
Given PP are not a 3D sculptor making their work available online for a fee or via Patreon or similar, but a production company that makes a substantial percentage of its income from the retail and wholesale of miniatures, how much of a premium do you think they'd need to charge to cover themselves and maintain any hope of sustainability?
Yes, that is what I want, and I acknowledge that. That is why I've switched over to miniature-agnostic rulesets and most of my hobby spending (though not all) is via Patreon and MyMiniFactory (and Cults3D, CGTrade, etc, etc) these days.
My point is, with a digital only rules release and 3D print production...they're not offering me anything over the systems I'm spending money on these days other than the inconvenience of buying THEIR prints, one at a time, at a significant premium compared to other small-shop manufacturers working in other mediums. As such, I'm very unlikely to come back to Warmahordes unless there's also the option to purchase STLs, because I've already got more systems than I can get to these days that offer that convenience.
I'm pointing out a possible challenge with this new setup, and acknowledging that I don't have an answer for it. I don't think they could maintain the overhead required to remain a physical production company and sell the STLs for my use. However, the solution isn't going to be to try and sell me a starter army that they printed for approximately 2 1/2 months of my Patreon fees, because I'm not interested. I can do 3D printed miniature gaming better with other systems already.
A race to the bottom chasing the cheapskate buck isnt a particularly viable strategy for a niche within a niche. There just isnt enough interest to court guys who might grudgingly part with $15 on their product, when it means the STL's are uploaded to various sites about 10 seconds after the first sale.
anab0lic wrote: RE 3D printed resin models brings being brittle, depends on what resin you use. There is stuff on the market now that is pretty durable, has a good amount of flex to it where things don't just snap if mishandled. There's some videos demonstrating this where people are forcefully throwing 3D printed resin models on the floor trying to break them and they remain intact after several bouts of heavy abuse.
Which types of resin are best for this?
I’ve been wondering if the slate blue resin really is tougher than the translucent green resin, or if that’s just a mind trick of their appearances.
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Kanluwen wrote: Implying that there's literally anything "quick and easy" about dealing with foreign manufacturing is a big ol' lol.
m
If only there were a plastics manufacturer in the US making a name for themselves by partnering up with small gaming companies to produce their minis in plastic…..
Read through the Mk. IV Beta rules... and it is just a worse version of the previous edition, with the added bonus of pissing off a bunch of people as they (eventually) invalidate whole collections, and move to a less than ideal production method.
Really unimpressed with the changes to how units work, removal of free strikes, gigantic Control Ranges, and enlarging the base melee ranges of minis to "deemphasis model placement".
Not terribly bothered about the removal of facings, as it will clear up a lot of analysis paralysis when it comes to placing minis on the board.
But ehhhh, I don't think I will continue playing Warmachine with this.
Hobby 3D printing isn’t commercial 3D printing. If I’m doing it for me, it’s annoying if a model comes out on the wonk, but ultimately it’s just a waste of electricity and the goo. If a commercially scaled 3D printer goes on the wonk? That’s multiple prints knackered, as well as time and money wasted.
I know my 3D Printing Friend has to calibrate his machine and do other maintenance, but not that often. Now whether that’s him taking risks or if the tech is generally quite reliable on say, quarterly cleaning and calibration i simply don’t know, but I’m sure someone here can clarify.
There’s also the question of long term development. We know GW has the money to make pretty significant investments in its production facilities and capacity, and in plastic (which I understand to be the most expensive to get setup for, but among the cheapest, if not the cheapest, to produce.
How scalable are these farms? I mean, if this edition takes off, and they see the sort of growth GW has been posting in the last few years (could potentially be higher, given comments about lack of availability outside the US). That’s not just adding a few more machines, depending on their starting capacity, but potentially doubling their available machines. That seems quite cost intensive in machines, factory space and people to run it?
Please note dear reader this isn’t “Mad Doc Gaks On PP’s Chips”. I’m just genuinely interested in this development, regardless of which company is trying it.
There's two type of printers. FDM, which later plastic (or similar material) up and are basically fancy plotters vs resin printers. FDMs require a lot of maintenance as there's a lot of moving parts and fail points. Resin printers are incredibly stupid simple mechanically. Cheap ones only have one moving part (a motor) and expensive ones will have two (two motors for two rails for stability) generally and really only need their stepper rods cleaned vary rarely. The other maintenance for Resin printers is a teflon coated sheet of plastic (or similar item) called FEP that wears out over time and this can take about 30min to replace but you can just swap resin vats with a fresh one on and then replace on the other while printing. Calibrating is also very simple if using the same resin. For production you'd want to calibrate for each batch of resin but they can buy a whole lot at once and ensure it's the same so they may only have to Calibrate when switching between resin batches or after screen/laser replacements which may only be 2-3 times a year.
The last consumable is the screen or laser (depending on the printer). Mono screens can last about 3,000-5,000 print hours and are pretty easy swaps (still about 30min) while lasers are 20,000 or so print hours (No clue on how much effort they are to swap but that's years worth of printing).
Scaling up is as simple as adding a new machine so you're only limited by space. A lot of print farms have management software that can manage all the stuff being printed remotely so you don't have to walk to each printer one at a time and start but you do for cleaning after the print. That's where the biggest time sink is for resin and what would be the most expensive to scale up as you need people to do that work.
There are also recurring PPE costs, extra electricity costs from ventilated enclosures, an air purifier in the space as backup. Screen protectors for the LCD. Gaskets and/or gasket tape for around replaced screens. etc.
My reply at the end of this was buried as the end post on page 3, and it bears repeating as it has not come up again.
No facing
No free strikes
No command range (for units), unit leaders or formations.
Units move one model, then the others just teleport to 2" away from that model (which... yeah, that's not obviously exploitable).
'Deemphasize model placement' (mentioned in the melee range increase). Given that the game's claim to fame was basically 'more tactical than warhammer' this is a weird choice.
As is the removal of almost all 'out of turn' stuff. It seems especially ironic that just when GW is stepping more and more into Reactions and out of turn interactions to keep opposing players involved, PP is stripping it out.
----
Simplified power attacks is iffy. Some where stupidly clunky and went on for pages with negligible side effects for all that text space.
On the other hand, charging still takes multiple pages of rules to explain, and something as simple as run is still somehow multiple paragraphs, and they still have the terrible bloody layout of the mark 3 book. The rules for being slammed or thrown do not need to be in a separate section from the rules for slamming and throwing. How is this part of anyone's thought process? 'We really have to explain what happens to you before we describe how it happens, rather than the result flowing naturally from the attempt.' And collateral damage (potentially part of a throw or slam) is also separate. So I take that back. It isn't iffy, its still just really dumb.
---
I do like some of the changes (though some seem half-hearted or partial), particularly the removal of templates (which especially don't work with unit teleports).
Arcane stat and a separate magic attack stat is nice, rather than crippling low fury or focus casters for offensive spells.
Kind of like flat modifiers for run or rough terrain rather than double or half.
Simplification of model rules is... largely good. They had the same problem (just a wall of tiny text across the card) at the end of mark 1, and honestly probably will again by the end of mk4.
Position and manoeuvre have been eroded over time in 40k simply as a byproduct of them simplifying the rules. I've not seen a game actually set out to remove that factor.
Needs some table time, but definitely not all bad.
Free strikes are gone, but leaving engagement requires forfeiting your combat action, which for most models is MUCH worse.
Unit movement is... interesting.... on one hand it absolutely ups the threat range of units, but the restriction on what counts as a charge attack for damage is pretty significant. Smaller unit sizes in general and DRAMATICALLY smaller table space are going to reshape how they play regardless.
Terrain interaction is a huge improvement and long overdo. I've been thumping for these changes forever.
Overall, I don't hate it at all. It's obviously meant to remove a ton of the fiddly bits of playing with untis and I think that's probably a boon.
As someone who quit after a few months of MK. 3, I'm excited to give this a try. I was tired of the flat, boring tables littered with fiddly measuring widgets and placeholder tokens. It seems like the rule designers were too!
Frankly I doubt they're even a "small" company by now, they seem to have basically no customers.
I think Monsterocalypse does well in it's tiny niche, and I'm sure the RPG does a low, but steady volume. But I haven't seen anyone excited about the main game in years (none of my local stores carry it anymore) or Warcaster ever.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Position and manoeuvre have been eroded over time in 40k simply as a byproduct of them simplifying the rules. I've not seen a game actually set out to remove that factor.
Yeah. I'm honestly just baffled by the idea of Warmachine without tactical & precise positioning. It was laborious at times and I'm sure its actually a relief to some.
But it was the meat of the game.
Now you can just charge a fool, then place the guy from the back of the unit with his base just barely touching the 2" mark forward from the charge, and wrap models around a blocker to still tag the model they're defending.
Truthfully, with a small based model as the charge target, you can just drop at least some of the charging unit on the other side of the enemy model. All that matters is one model in the unit can complete the charge. They rest can just pop into existence on the other side of an intact shield wall. And they can attack anyone in their (now longer) melee range, the additonal models in the unit don't actually have a charge target. Or facings. They do lose the charge bonus if their targets aren't engaged by the charging model, but so what? At that point the enemies either have to fight your trash or forfeit their combat action.
Huh. Technically since you measure everything from base edge to base edge, charging units can drop people on the other side of heavy warjacks, as 2" is slightly longer than 50mm.
There are also recurring PPE costs, extra electricity costs from ventilated enclosures, an air purifier in the space as backup. Screen protectors for the LCD. Gaskets and/or gasket tape for around replaced screens. etc.
My reply at the end of this gor buried as the end post on page 3, and it bears repeating as it has not come up again.
So, what would you estimate the final cost per starter set would be for PP, after all these hidden expenditures?
Seeing all these accruing costs reminded me of a music video:
Dang, all those changes they've outlined in their summary below the docs sound really, really good... So many of my pain points from playing these games addressed!
Yeah. I'm honestly just baffled by the idea of Warmachine without tactical & precise positioning. It was laborious at times and I'm sure its actually a relief to some.
But it was the meat of the game.
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
As for your other points...yeah, I'm sure they're will be some wacky rules interactions but hopefully they'll get them ironed out, after all, these are still just the beta rules.
Having read through the beta rules, I'm cautiously optimistic. Really appreciate the rules simplifications. It feels like Mk3 was trying to get to this point but fell short and got mired in the muddy ground inbetween.
I really like the idea of customisable jack loadouts, and breaking down focus, control, and magic attacks.
I'm not so sure about the new blast and spray attacks, but realise these will have be taken into consideration with the new rules as a whole.
All in all I'm looking forward to given it a solid go.
No facing
No free strikes
No command range (for units), unit leaders or formations.
Units move one model, then the others just teleport to 2" away from that model (which... yeah, that's not obviously exploitable).
'Deemphasize model placement' (mentioned in the melee range increase). Given that the game's claim to fame was basically 'more tactical than warhammer' this is a weird choice.
As is the removal of almost all 'out of turn' stuff. It seems especially ironic that just when GW is stepping more and more into Reactions and out of turn interactions to keep opposing players involved, PP is stripping it out.
WHAT?!
Those things are integral to what makes Warmachine, Warmachine! Model placement is the key aspect of the game, it's what made it so tactically pleasing! Might as well remove Focus from the game too at that point
There are also recurring PPE costs, extra electricity costs from ventilated enclosures, an air purifier in the space as backup. Screen protectors for the LCD. Gaskets and/or gasket tape for around replaced screens. etc.
My reply at the end of this gor buried as the end post on page 3, and it bears repeating as it has not come up again.
So, what would you estimate the final cost per starter set would be for PP, after all these hidden expenditures?
Seeing all these accruing costs reminded me of a music video:
I have no idea of their demand level, so I can't answer that well.
assuming mass market, including wholesale accounts that are going to purchase in bulk: probably close or higher than 75 machines based on the size of war machine figures I have owned personally (time to print is a factor.) lets be generous and say they have 3 facilities (Europe, americas, asia/pacific.) Manpower is dependent on how much you really want to throw at it. assuming they can get bulk rates on PPE, and don't cheap out, plus get proper enclosures rather than bastardized ones out of grow tents....... High 5 figures to low six figures.
if they are sub-contracting work out to local print farms there's going to be gak for quality control and packaging quality control.
if they are sub-contracting work out to local print farms there's going to be gak for quality control and packaging quality control.
Well they were a bit vague regarding the facilities, for all we know they may well just have a small rented office for 1 guy to "simply" check the quality of those farms production.
And yeah unless they dont give a rats ass for other territories and are just working on the US release in a couple month etc I dont see how "we are looking into it" as opposed to " we are already printing in other territories" will work out.
PP is doing everything people "ask" GW doing with 40k, go full 3D printing, go full digital, keep old models and new ones with different gaming modes, seasons to keep the meta fresh etc.
while at the same time copy the rules "style" of 40k because it is the most successful game, everyone plays (also everyone 3D prints models or buy 3rd party knock offs to play the game) so the rules must be what people want
funny thing is that people call it DoA simply because it is doing what others say GW must do to survive and maybe this the US market wants from a competitive game and maybe it will work
Also, considering the importance of placement and maneuver - PP say front arcs add to the mental load. Really? One of he most intuitive rules in the game?
Universal - everyone has the same rule
Intuitive -can't attacks what you can't see and it's easier to hit you from the back, even if you don't play WM it's obvious
Easy - a few sentences are enough to describe it
Player dependant - whether it is used optimally or badly is entirely in players' hands
And they call it "mental load"? Compared to the rest of WM&H?
First poster here haha, but feel like I can actually contribute here, as I feel like I'm one of the few that was still actively playing a lot.
I see a lot of criticism over the simplification and removal of mechanics and I felt the same way myself at first but then I gave it some thought and it made a lot more sense.
Warmachine basically died in my area, to the point that LGS didn't even carry it and local 'groups' on facebook and such just dissolved. So I ended up setting up my own game room in my basement with 2 big tables. Myself and a few friends basically just started playing among ourselves in my basement whenever we had time. Most of that gameplay was Brawlmachine, the smaller, and therefore simpler game mode.
Now none of us are all-star competitive champs on the tabletop but we've all been playing warmachine since at least 2016. We know the rules inside and out and there is very rarely ever a required rule look up. Yet we all much preferred the smaller scale battles. Not because of lack of models, or lack of time, or whatever. But just because it was so much smoother. A lot of positioning shenanigan's, free strike stuff, facing problems that come up with lots of models, terrain issues, and such just disappeared because the game was simpler at the lower point cost and funnily enough more enjoyable even for us.
I'd say we were unique in that regard but it seems that most of the people I seen actively playing online were also doing brawlmachine. The obviously more simple, more "room to breath" game mode. And I don't feel like it was as simple as smaller armies = more fun. A part of it was definitely just not having to deal with a lot of those extra finnicky placement, position, facing,I-need-to-find-a-path rules.
But that's just me, I still have my whatsapp group with my few warmachine friends and we're cautiously optimistic about the general direction. Especially if we can still just play with our old models in some legacy format.
Edit: Oh we are all also so accustomed to the war room app that we've given up on most tabletop war games that don't have a digital resource that's up to par. I straight up dropped my attempt at 40K because of that. Odd how different peoples views are I guess.. lol
kodos wrote: PP is doing everything people "ask" GW doing with 40k, go full 3D printing, go full digital, keep old models and new ones with different gaming modes, seasons to keep the meta fresh etc.
...
funny thing is that people call it DoA simply because it is doing what others say GW must do to survive and maybe this the US market wants from a competitive game and maybe it will work
I don't recall anyone saying that GW should do mass 3D printing of their minis to move all their rules to an app as the only method of viewing/purchasing them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't recall anyone saying that GW should do mass 3D printing of their minis to move all their rules to an app as the only method of viewing/purchasing them.
depends on the channels you follow, but GW stop printing and do all rules via the 40k app comes up once in a while by fans (not the usefull suggestion of selling e-books again but just do the app only thing)
as well as classic "casting" is already dead and GW (or mini companies in general) should just 3D print the models for those who cannot print at home
my take on this is that most people who suggest it have no clue about 3D printing and the numbers of kits you can get out of it (or the price of commercial printing farms is not the same with printing at home and ignore anything but cost of resin) and those are the same people who think 90% of the models sales come from people who don't play the games
overall, I think PP listening to the wrong people and also believe they can solve the distribution problem by having 3D printers all over the world
H.B.M.C. wrote: Position and manoeuvre have been eroded over time in 40k simply as a byproduct of them simplifying the rules. I've not seen a game actually set out to remove that factor.
Yeah. I'm honestly just baffled by the idea of Warmachine without tactical & precise positioning. It was laborious at times and I'm sure its actually a relief to some.
But it was the meat of the game.
Now you can just charge a fool, then place the guy from the back of the unit with his base just barely touching the 2" mark forward from the charge, and wrap models around a blocker to still tag the model they're defending.
Truthfully, with a small based model as the charge target, you can just drop at least some of the charging unit on the other side of the enemy model. All that matters is one model in the unit can complete the charge. They rest can just pop into existence on the other side of an intact shield wall. And they can attack anyone in their (now longer) melee range, the additonal models in the unit don't actually have a charge target. Or facings. They do lose the charge bonus if their targets aren't engaged by the charging model, but so what? At that point the enemies either have to fight your trash or forfeit their combat action.
Huh. Technically since you measure everything from base edge to base edge, charging units can drop people on the other side of heavy warjacks, as 2" is slightly longer than 50mm.
Note that while you can leapfrog and tag a model behind the defender, you only get the boosted damage roll against models in melee range of the first model that moved. That's fine in a lot of cases, but is enough to protect a lot of models worth protecting.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Position and manoeuvre have been eroded over time in 40k simply as a byproduct of them simplifying the rules. I've not seen a game actually set out to remove that factor.
Yeah. I'm honestly just baffled by the idea of Warmachine without tactical & precise positioning. It was laborious at times and I'm sure its actually a relief to some.
But it was the meat of the game.
Now you can just charge a fool, then place the guy from the back of the unit with his base just barely touching the 2" mark forward from the charge, and wrap models around a blocker to still tag the model they're defending.
Truthfully, with a small based model as the charge target, you can just drop at least some of the charging unit on the other side of the enemy model. All that matters is one model in the unit can complete the charge. They rest can just pop into existence on the other side of an intact shield wall. And they can attack anyone in their (now longer) melee range, the additonal models in the unit don't actually have a charge target. Or facings. They do lose the charge bonus if their targets aren't engaged by the charging model, but so what? At that point the enemies either have to fight your trash or forfeit their combat action.
Huh. Technically since you measure everything from base edge to base edge, charging units can drop people on the other side of heavy warjacks, as 2" is slightly longer than 50mm.
Note that while you can leapfrog and tag a model behind the defender, you only get the boosted damage roll against models in melee range of the first model that moved. That's fine in a lot of cases, but is enough to protect a lot of models worth protecting.
I did, in fact, note that.
It still doesn't make Bob and Fred being able to teleport through shield walls any less dumb. And from a tactical play it still isn't bad (fight trash or forfeit combat actions), especially with the addition of Execution mode with its 'Highlander the movie' limits on who's even allowed to kill the immortal named characters.
Gave a quick scan through the beta rules. Now, granted, I haven't played since late Mk 2, though did read up and watch some of early Mk 3. While I think some of the changes are decent and will speed some things up and remove some points of contention, I will also say that I don't think the biggest problem with Warmachine was in its core rules, but in the sheer bloat that it suffered from with all the various special rules everywhere.
De-emphasizing micro-managing placement and measuring by just increasing melee range and removing free strikes is, IMO, the lazy way out of that problem. The changes to unit movement is... interesting. Sure it will speed things up, but I believe it's going to cause a lot of problems that they didn't think about (yeah, yeah, they "playtested" it extensively; they said the same about early Mk 3 and we all remember how that turned out).
I completely understand the need to somehow deal with the massive list of models they already have (c.f. bloat, above), and get the Unlimited vs Prime thing. Probably not too many other ways to do that. However... their planned release schedule for the Unlimted/Legacy armies is going to immediately kill off a large chunk of their player base, as will many of the rules changes (as we can guess from various reactions to the beta rules drop, here and elsewhere). I do not think any of these changes is going to draw new players in to the levels that they need to in order to keep the game (and possibly company?) alive, however.
The production model is one thing, and I do still think that could be successful. But, in order for that to even matter, they have to generate enough interest via the rules for people to want to buy the models. And I don't think these rules are going to do that in the volume they need to.
PP is doing everything people "ask" GW doing with 40k, go full 3D printing, go full digital, keep old models and new ones with different gaming modes, seasons to keep the meta fresh etc.
while at the same time copy the rules "style" of 40k because it is the most successful game, everyone plays (also everyone 3D prints models or buy 3rd party knock offs to play the game) so the rules must be what people want
funny thing is that people call it DoA simply because it is doing what others say GW must do to survive and maybe this the US market wants from a competitive game and maybe it will work
overall, wait and see but I have my doubts
Some people asks all sorts of stupid things, the key is to know who to listen to and who is just running their mouth. More importantly if someone wanted the rules style of 40k they're already playing GW and aren't likely to swap over to a game where they'll have to buy all new models and won't find opponents as easy. Meanwhile the people who liked the old style leave for other pastures.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m fairly confident GW will be watching this experiment unfold, as will the wider wargames market.
If it works or not, there will be lessons for other companies in the market
That's giving PP an importance they don't have anymore for quite a while, now.
I think reality is more likely to be nobody outside of PP leftover fans / designers does really care about what they'll do.
As for "simplification" of rules...that's nothing new nor surprising. It's the basic minimum to hope attracting new players instead of just keeping the old guard that didn't leave them (and is not enough to "make PP great again").
PP is doing everything people "ask" GW doing with 40k,
Really? i went back to playing 5th ed 40K because i WANT facings and templates, i want tactical movement to be part of my tactical miniature war game.
After reading through the beta rules....i'll just keep playing warmachine not "warcaster light" i already have a sizable army and the physical rules with plenty of people who will play MKIII with me.
Just in case i went to the card database and started downloading everything.
Notable layering on the shoulder. I've seen some other sampled that got sent out and there's definitely some pooling issues in places and other artifacts. Not sure how much of that is quality control or if its lighting, as I've also seen some pretty fantastic samples. In all cases, the magnetizing is pretty awesome and super exciting for the game and the assembly has been very simple. I'll need to see some of it in person to see if the layering is a dealbreaker for me or not.
I wonder what layer height that is set to print at. If they are using new 8K resolution printers, 0.02 print height (which will take a lot longer to print than, say 0.05) then they can probably eliminate them. Some parts might even take using AA settings without too much loss of detail.
ImAGeek wrote: In the assembly stream you could see that the models' texture were smooth to the point of being glossy
The models in the stream I think you're talking about looked pretty damned good. There were some 'scabbing' issues with concave holes I noticed, and a few visible steps on shallow curves in specific spots (but that's something they can fix still) and a couple spots where there were supports still attached that needed trimmed.
It's a shame really, well produced mediocre models.
There are also recurring PPE costs, extra electricity costs from ventilated enclosures, an air purifier in the space as backup. Screen protectors for the LCD. Gaskets and/or gasket tape for around replaced screens. etc.
My reply at the end of this gor buried as the end post on page 3, and it bears repeating as it has not come up again.
So, what would you estimate the final cost per starter set would be for PP, after all these hidden expenditures?
Seeing all these accruing costs reminded me of a music video:
I have no idea of their demand level, so I can't answer that well.
assuming mass market, including wholesale accounts that are going to purchase in bulk: probably close or higher than 75 machines based on the size of war machine figures I have owned personally (time to print is a factor.) lets be generous and say they have 3 facilities (Europe, americas, asia/pacific.) Manpower is dependent on how much you really want to throw at it. assuming they can get bulk rates on PPE, and don't cheap out, plus get proper enclosures rather than bastardized ones out of grow tents....... High 5 figures to low six figures.
if they are sub-contracting work out to local print farms there's going to be gak for quality control and packaging quality control.
That sounds like a lot more money than I assume PP has available for investment.
There are also recurring PPE costs, extra electricity costs from ventilated enclosures, an air purifier in the space as backup. Screen protectors for the LCD. Gaskets and/or gasket tape for around replaced screens. etc.
My reply at the end of this gor buried as the end post on page 3, and it bears repeating as it has not come up again.
So, what would you estimate the final cost per starter set would be for PP, after all these hidden expenditures?
Seeing all these accruing costs reminded me of a music video:
I have no idea of their demand level, so I can't answer that well.
assuming mass market, including wholesale accounts that are going to purchase in bulk: probably close or higher than 75 machines based on the size of war machine figures I have owned personally (time to print is a factor.) lets be generous and say they have 3 facilities (Europe, americas, asia/pacific.) Manpower is dependent on how much you really want to throw at it. assuming they can get bulk rates on PPE, and don't cheap out, plus get proper enclosures rather than bastardized ones out of grow tents....... High 5 figures to low six figures.
if they are sub-contracting work out to local print farms there's going to be gak for quality control and packaging quality control.
That sounds like a lot more money than I assume PP has available for investment.
Overread wrote: I wonder what layer height that is set to print at. If they are using new 8K resolution printers, 0.02 print height (which will take a lot longer to print than, say 0.05) then they can probably eliminate them. Some parts might even take using AA settings without too much loss of detail.
Yeah, that's my biggest question, is what printer was used, and what kind of settings? No clue if it's something like, say, a Phrozen Sonic 8k, or some other non-consumer model, or an older consumer model. We have no idea.
That said, even on my Sonic Mini 4k, I can get better results than that with AA and .03 layer height, easily.
Edited to add:
Looking at that more, I'm wondering if they're using an SLA printer rather than an SMSLA. E.g., a Form 1 instead of like an Elegoo Mars. Some of the lack of lines in certain areas (those curves are pretty smooth, which laser cure printers are better at), but extra lines in some (large flat areas, where laser cure printers are worse) makes me wonder about that. Or, worse, they could be really stupid and using an SLS (powder) printer, which could explain the "grittiness" if that's not just a bad primer and paint. Going SLS would be massively stupid for this application quite frankly, but somehow, it wouldn't surprise me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Following the links in the Reddit post to get to the stream of the unpainted model, I think more of that terrible texture is indeed due to bad primer/paint.
Overread wrote: I wonder what layer height that is set to print at. If they are using new 8K resolution printers, 0.02 print height (which will take a lot longer to print than, say 0.05) then they can probably eliminate them. Some parts might even take using AA settings without too much loss of detail.
It will depend more on wether they can dial in correctly the settings for the resin, honestly, IME. That said, many of the stuff I see in my own prints is absolutely invisible when you have the mini on hand, too.
But yeah, I see layers on the first pic, although the paint doesn't really help to actually see the model.
Following the links in the Reddit post to get to the stream of the unpainted model, I think more of that terrible texture is indeed due to bad primer/paint.
Ya the poster of the image said multiple times the texture is due to his bad paint job.
I would honestly expect them to go with laser based SLA as the life of those is much longer and better for a retail production setup I'd wager.
Well this is a marketing screw up straight off. Letting your new product be seen for the first time with some hack paint job on it by an influencer instead of in its best light is not a good start
They look pretty rough and the person that painted them said it was their poor painting skills.
It's my poorly done contrast. There were visible striations on the top panels (nowhere else) but after painting were gone.
Yet another fail for their marketing sense.
This is why you send out free models to *painters* and not the gaming channels/sites.
If they’re so confident in their model quality, why are there no independent previews from decent painters?
I want to see what these look like painted up by somebody with more talent than this.
You want to showcase model quality? Then they should have top tier painters showing these off.
Not meta-chasing social media outlets.
As has been proven before, the rules can have some looseness as long as the models are top notch.
So far this is the only model preview I have seen. And it looks like gak.
No offense intended toward the painter. But tabletop quality does nothing to exemplify how good these prints really are…..
Following the links in the Reddit post to get to the stream of the unpainted model, I think more of that terrible texture is indeed due to bad primer/paint.
Ya the poster of the image said multiple times the texture is due to his bad paint job.
I would honestly expect them to go with laser based SLA as the life of those is much longer and better for a retail production setup I'd wager.
SLA vs MSLA (DLP) is a hard call. There's some things SLA does better (curves) but it takes longer than DLP when you have a full build area. But yes, the lifetime of the machines for SLA are easily 5-10x that of a DLP, and they're not 5-10x as much honestly.
They look pretty rough and the person that painted them said it was their poor painting skills.
It's my poorly done contrast. There were visible striations on the top panels (nowhere else) but after painting were gone.
Yet another fail for their marketing sense.
This is why you send out free models to *painters* and not the gaming channels/sites.
If they’re so confident in their model quality, why are there no independent previews from decent painters?
I want to see what these look like painted up by somebody with more talent than this.
You want to showcase model quality? Then they should have top tier painters showing these off.
Not meta-chasing social media outlets.
As has been proven before, the rules can have some looseness as long as the models are top notch.
So far this is the only model preview I have seen. And it looks like gak.
No offense intended toward the painter. But tabletop quality does nothing to exemplify how good these prints really are…..
There have been some better painters showing them off on streams but this is the only person that got them that posted images themselves. Other stuff you'd need to go find and watch yourself and take screencaps.
Also I cannot blame PP for sending these to people that actually cover their products even if they are small. If they ignored these people there'd be a lot of bitterness from them and the community that they're only chasing after the youtubers that will make one video then never talk about the game again.
They look pretty rough and the person that painted them said it was their poor painting skills.
It's my poorly done contrast. There were visible striations on the top panels (nowhere else) but after painting were gone.
Yet another fail for their marketing sense.
This is why you send out free models to *painters* and not the gaming channels/sites.
If they’re so confident in their model quality, why are there no independent previews from decent painters?
I want to see what these look like painted up by somebody with more talent than this.
You want to showcase model quality? Then they should have top tier painters showing these off.
Not meta-chasing social media outlets.
As has been proven before, the rules can have some looseness as long as the models are top notch.
So far this is the only model preview I have seen. And it looks like gak.
No offense intended toward the painter. But tabletop quality does nothing to exemplify how good these prints really are…..
100% this. However, I have a feeling that some of it may also be that they can't get the high level painters even interested in their wares. We both know PP's been long surviving only off their hardcore fanbase for the most part, and you rarely see any PP model in any of the mass of YouTube or Twitch painting videos/streams. GW? All over the place. Random 3d Patreons? Sure. Even Wizkids and Reaper show more often than Privateer Press models.
big mini painters don't work for free based on their interest, they get paid by publishers to paint minis. If PP cant get any to paint their minis its because they aren't willing to pay their rates.
IIRC this is nothing new, I believe one of the previous departures from the company noted that management was unwilling to pay big influencers for reviews and marketing as is the standard for every other major publisher.
Angel Giraldez recently did some paintjobs for them.... painted all of the new Orgoth faction I believe.
Interesting. Commissioned box art is a bit different, though. I'd still say there's not as much excitement, in general, in the "top tier community painters" for PP models.
Angel Giraldez recently did some paintjobs for them.... painted all of the new Orgoth faction I believe.
Interesting. Commissioned box art is a bit different, though. I'd still say there's not as much excitement, in general, in the "top tier community painters" for PP models.
These are mostly driven by how much of an audience they draw in, which comes down to people that follow painting contests. That mostly comes down to Creature Caster and obviously Games Workshop because GW drives clicks. Beyond that it's mostly bespoke models that aren't really intended to be part of a game line.
Warmachine MkIV is to Warmachine as D&D 4th is to D&D.
Lol, I'd think you would want a wargame to be balanced and have tactical depth.
Way to miss the point.
I'd want a new edition to still have the same feel and not feel completely different. WOTC had MTG and Hasbro to keep them alive despite that F UP. I hope PP is still alive to realize their mistake and release a return to roots 5th ed in a few years.
Angel Giraldez recently did some paintjobs for them.... painted all of the new Orgoth faction I believe.
Interesting. Commissioned box art is a bit different, though. I'd still say there's not as much excitement, in general, in the "top tier community painters" for PP models.
These are mostly driven by how much of an audience they draw in, which comes down to people that follow painting contests. That mostly comes down to Creature Caster and obviously Games Workshop because GW drives clicks. Beyond that it's mostly bespoke models that aren't really intended to be part of a game line.
Yep. If PP wants someone like Squigmire to show off their stuff they need to pay up, same with any of them. They don't do anything for any company that won't bring in a lot of views by itself (IE GW) without money in hand. I wouldn't be surprised if it would cost them 10k+ per video.
OnTabletop/BoW is likely to do something though in the coming month just because I'm sure they're curios about the 3d printing as manufacturing aspect to it.
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
This is the best analysis in the entire thread. The widget fetishists seem to have found Marvel Crisis Protocol so maybe Warmachine can be left alone this time around 😺
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
This is the best analysis in the entire thread. The widget fetishists seem to have found Marvel Crisis Protocol so maybe Warmachine can be left alone this time around 😺
I really hope this works out for PP.
Nope its inaccurate, the movement fetishist will just focus all their attention on moving the first model then break out their 2 inch widget to place the rest of the squad. Its already been talked about in the discord.
Angel Giraldez recently did some paintjobs for them.... painted all of the new Orgoth faction I believe.
Interesting. Commissioned box art is a bit different, though. I'd still say there's not as much excitement, in general, in the "top tier community painters" for PP models.
These are mostly driven by how much of an audience they draw in, which comes down to people that follow painting contests. That mostly comes down to Creature Caster and obviously Games Workshop because GW drives clicks. Beyond that it's mostly bespoke models that aren't really intended to be part of a game line.
Yep. If PP wants someone like Squigmire to show off their stuff they need to pay up, same with any of them. They don't do anything for any company that won't bring in a lot of views by itself (IE GW) without money in hand. I wouldn't be surprised if it would cost them 10k+ per video.
OnTabletop/BoW is likely to do something though in the coming month just because I'm sure they're curios about the 3d printing as manufacturing aspect to it.
Yeah but there are more than 3 YouTube channels that feature miniature painting.
And any of them, with any sort of audience, whom also don’t charge when given free product, is better than no exposure or marketing at all.
I have to seriously watch entire streams and grab screen caps myself in order to investigate?
If it’s going to be that much effort to get a couple of pictures that a show what a good painter can do with these models, then PP really doesn’t have any money. And I’m not going to do the marketing myself.
If I have to put that kind of effort into trying to find out if it’s a good product or not? Then it’s not a good product is what I’ll assume.
Any good business requires marketing. In any form.
And right now, PP has almost zero for their new models.
Eh. I had to go all the way down to the final stage (labelled Face) to see any real detail on model. The camera work is absolutely lousy for details.
The metal on the chest and and rings looks bumpy, same as the random guy's model. And I hate the way the 'fur' blends right into the metal on the shoulderpads, to the point that it looks like a semi-translucent glaze laying on top of the gold of the shoulderpad.
...though some of that may be because there are three layers of sealant on the model before he paints the fur.
Eh. I had to go all the way down to the final stage (labelled Face) to see any real detail on model. The camera work is absolutely lousy for details.
The metal on the chest and and rings looks bumpy, same as the random guy's model. And I hate the way the 'fur' blends right into the metal on the shoulderpads, to the point that it looks like a semi-translucent glaze laying on top of the gold of the shoulderpad.
...though some of that may be because there are three layers of sealant on the model before he paints the fur.
Yeah, pics are relatively small and low quality to really show much detail. I would've liked better, hi-res closeups of the model pre-paint to really judge the quality of the model versus trying to figure out if some of the grit/texture was due to the paints (which I suspect some of it is).
The close ups of the sword show some printing striations running across the blade, but other than that (looking at the big pic at the end of the article) they look pretty good to me. If the slight bumpy texture is on the model surface, it doesn't seem any worse than is present on many metal casts.
Overread wrote: I wonder what layer height that is set to print at. If they are using new 8K resolution printers, 0.02 print height (which will take a lot longer to print than, say 0.05) then they can probably eliminate them. Some parts might even take using AA settings without too much loss of detail.
It will depend more on wether they can dial in correctly the settings for the resin, honestly, IME. That said, many of the stuff I see in my own prints is absolutely invisible when you have the mini on hand, too.
But yeah, I see layers on the first pic, although the paint doesn't really help to actually see the model.
I have to agree that photos, esp close up ones, will show lines that you just cannot see with the naked eye and painting.
That said I'd expect them to be able to calibrate their printer correctly (which includes getting support from experienced printer people even outside of the firm). That would be the most basic bog standard part of setting up a printer for anyone running a production site. Plus if they want to minimise damage to the model from supports, they really want a well calibrated printer so that they can use the lightest supports over high detail areas to ensure low damage. If they are REALLY smart and have someone good with cutting parts; they'd cut model parts so that they can always have high detail surfaces facing away from the build plate and low detail or even hidden when assembled parts facing the build plate. Thus letting them hide more of the marks simply by the construction of the model.
GW does it for a good many of their modern models. A lot of join lines are well hidden today compared to in the past. Sure there are some angles they can't make it work for them, but they certainly do try
There's a lot of things they could do. Thing is 3D printing does produce great results and there's more than enough merchants doing it at good volumes showing that it can work with delivering solid high quality models.
It doesn't scale up as well as casting systems, but its ideal for a firm looking to basically downsize and start over and perhaps (through local manufacture) avoid some of the current issues with international shipping and supply.
As for resin selection I think there are two big things to consider there
1) A lot of 3D print designers are not gamers. They are digital sculptors who might never play wargames or miniature games. They are very skilled, but they often have a big blindspot when it comes to practical design thicknesses.
Eg swords and arrows can be super super thin. Because they've gone for a more realistic scale that looks fantastic in the render. However when printed and cured they create really thin details that, even with very durable resins, are still very fragile and apt to break.
2) I think there's a healthy body of people in the DnD market who are used to PVC type models. They are more used to a model that can quite literally be tossed in a bag at the end of the game.
Wargamers "tend" to be a bit more careful and those with regular cast resin experience might well not find 3D prints all that much more fragile than their cast resin models.
Following the links in the Reddit post to get to the stream of the unpainted model, I think more of that terrible texture is indeed due to bad primer/paint.
Ya the poster of the image said multiple times the texture is due to his bad paint job.
I would honestly expect them to go with laser based SLA as the life of those is much longer and better for a retail production setup I'd wager.
Which makes it funny. People keep saying how bad print quality is when we haven't actually seen that...
They look pretty rough and the person that painted them said it was their poor painting skills.
It's my poorly done contrast. There were visible striations on the top panels (nowhere else) but after painting were gone.
Yet another fail for their marketing sense.
This is why you send out free models to *painters* and not the gaming channels/sites.
If they’re so confident in their model quality, why are there no independent previews from decent painters?
I want to see what these look like painted up by somebody with more talent than this.
You want to showcase model quality? Then they should have top tier painters showing these off.
Not meta-chasing social media outlets.
As has been proven before, the rules can have some looseness as long as the models are top notch.
So far this is the only model preview I have seen. And it looks like gak.
No offense intended toward the painter. But tabletop quality does nothing to exemplify how good these prints really are…..
There have been some better painters showing them off on streams but this is the only person that got them that posted images themselves. Other stuff you'd need to go find and watch yourself and take screencaps.
Also I cannot blame PP for sending these to people that actually cover their products even if they are small. If they ignored these people there'd be a lot of bitterness from them and the community that they're only chasing after the youtubers that will make one video then never talk about the game again.
That's why you send good painters minis first and once the cat is out of the bag you can send to other channels.
The fact you mention that I need to go out of my way to find good examples and the only picture available is the grainy powdery cast, shows me PP did not do their homework here. I mean many 1 man garage companies manage to do this right.
That's exactly what I was talking about when I mentionned quality control.
It's obvious PP didn't think too deep on it, as usual. Enjoy your "GW priced" PP printed miniatures with horrible lines showing then you paint them, 'cause that's cheaper for them to produce that way and it suck to be you, the fool who thought they actually deserved a second chance.
Early to say horrible lines showing seeing we don't know. One guy screwlng up his paint doesn't mean everybody will. You just claim you paint same way as he does
tneva82 wrote: Early to say horrible lines showing seeing we don't know. One guy screwlng up his paint doesn't mean everybody will. You just claim you paint same way as he does
A painter's skill level has nothing to do, here. Lines showing with paint is natural when they are on the model. That means you have to do extra work to cover them...and it doesn't generally include the use of paint.
People blaming the painter in this case are shifting the blame for no reason, IMHO. The real to blame is the one producing the miniature with such a result, not the poor painter having to deal with it.
In the end, if it's in the same state when launching worldwide, customers will be in the same situation than this poor painter. And I don't think it's okay.
We have seen pic where painter screwed up. I have screwed up with priming and got same effect with gw models plus 3rd party models so according to your logic every company has print lines...
I'm tke smart one and actually wait to see are there print lines and not assume painting issue means print lines.
Haven't seen anybody claim space marine tacticals have print lines yet after priming screw up i had model look just like the pic people stupidly use as proof of print lines.
I don't mind crappy quality to bulk the army out if it means REALLY low prices.
As I joked in the PP section of the forum already, it's not the minutiae of model quality that keep the overall visual quality of Warmachine tables very low. It doesn't matter how crisp the models are if most people don't paint and only half-assemble them anyway.
tneva82 wrote: We have seen pic where painter screwed up. I have screwed up with priming and got same effect with gw models plus 3rd party models so according to your logic every company has print lines...
I'm tke smart one and actually wait to see are there print lines and not assume painting issue means print lines.
Haven't seen anybody claim space marine tacticals have print lines yet after priming screw up i had model look just like the pic people stupidly use as proof of print lines.
I mean... no. The pics showed gunky metal paint texture, yes, but also layer lines on the shoulders and the feet.
Spoiler:
Those are clear examples of layer lines. Will they actually be noticeable on hand? I have no idea, probably not that much, if at all. But that's what they are.
Can the models survive the stripping process? Do the details turn to mush? Because the closeups from that 'jack do not inspire confidence. Lots of detail that is shallow and is lost under just a primer coat.
How do people plan to store all the spare Warjack pieces once painted? I wouldn't want to just chuck them in a box or need a custom foam.
I see that new players are expected to jump into the game with a $200 box full of an unproven material & production method from a company that has less than stellar reputation for quality.
By new material, I do mean for mass production. No one else has done this for retail packaging that I am aware of.
How do the prints react to the fluctuating temperatures of being shipped in the mail systems? If they have mistakes in curing the prints, do they know if packaging plastics will react with the resin?
Can the models survive the stripping process? Do the details turn to mush? Because the closeups from that 'jack do not inspire confidence. Lots of detail that is shallow and is lost under just a primer coat.
How do people plan to store all the spare Warjack pieces once painted?
I wouldn't want to just chuck them in a box or need a custom foam.
I see that new players are expected to jump into the game with a $200 box full of an unproven material & production method from a company that has less than stellar reputation for quality.
By new material, I do mean for mass production. No one else has done this for retail packaging that I am aware of.
How do the prints react to the fluctuating temperatures of being shipped in the mail systems?
If they have mistakes in curing the prints, do they know if packaging plastics will react with the resin?
A lot of that depends on the resin they actually use. Stripping with acetone will be pretty much right out regardless of what they settle on, but IPA/denatured alcohol may work just fine on most of them, since that's often what's used to clean uncured resin after the print. Even there, you want to be careful how long you'd leave in the stripper tho. Temperature can possibly affect them, but not really any more-so than cast resin; too hot will cause some warping/bending. So long as they completely cure, there shouldn't be any interactions with any packaging, but if they do undercure a little bit they could get "sticky". As for storage, since they're planned for magnets, my best guess on how to store/transport them would be with magnetic trays in the first place, so you could just plop the extra parts right on the tray without them sliding around too much, hopefully. Those without magnetic cases, well, probably gonna have to dedicate some slots in your foam for parts.
On the topic of layer lines... One thing that I do want to say is that when you take pictures super zoomed in, you're going to see artifacts in the photos that you often cannot see with your naked eye. Blow something up 3-5x, and yeah, they're glaring; but they may not be without that magnification. I notice this on my own prints all the time. Now, it's also possible to have very visible layers and artifacts without magnification, depending, so on that we pretty much just have to wait and see. Some of those photos don't give me a lot of hope, though.
skrulnik wrote: I have questions regarding the new models.
Can the models survive the stripping process? Do the details turn to mush? Because the closeups from that 'jack do not inspire confidence. Lots of detail that is shallow and is lost under just a primer coat.
How do people plan to store all the spare Warjack pieces once painted?
I wouldn't want to just chuck them in a box or need a custom foam.
It's just resin, so it should strip just fine. I ruined a few MonPoc models with the clear coat last year and had to start over and they 100% survived the process with no issue.
As for the spare parts, Metal tins are great for this kind of stuff. I use them for all my magnetized wargames (Warmachine, Warcaster, 40k among others).
€195 for 22 models... yeah, this is going to be dead on arrival.
Shame, as WARMACHINE used to be a great game, that was ruined by not capping the amount of Infantry a force could take, which resulted in InfantryMachine (which just eroded the concept of the game), and then the lines between the factions blurred due to the constant releases.
Back when it was just the Prime book it was a great alternative to what GW were at time. I really want PP to do well, and to keep WARMACHINE as a challenging game, one that has great resource management, and fun using those big stompy Warjacks. If they could just release battleboxes as they used to be during Prime, and leave Infantry out of the game. Focus on what makes the game stand out. However asking $200 for a starter set for 1 faction is just absolutely glue sniffing stupid.
Might see if I can track down some of the old battle boxes cheap, I think PP are in dire straits. All these choices just sounds like a company that is circling the drain and is trying to course correct.
TL/DR, remember Rackham, remember how their Pre-Paints killed them? Yeah, this is Privateer Press' time to do the equivalent Swan dive.
skrulnik wrote: Can the models survive the stripping process? Do the details turn to mush? Because the closeups from that 'jack do not inspire confidence. Lots of detail that is shallow and is lost under just a primer coat.
Yep, same as normal resin. Alcohol and simple green are fine, haven't tried acetone yet.
By new material, I do mean for mass production. No one else has done this for retail packaging that I am aware of.
Kingdom Death does the same thing.
How do the prints react to the fluctuating temperatures of being shipped in the mail systems?
UV resin is pretty thermally inactive. It might get slightly bendier, but not by any significant amount.
If they have mistakes in curing the prints, do they know if packaging plastics will react with the resin?
That's not really a failure state of 3D print post processing, so should never come up. However, UV resin doesn't react with plastic.
Azreal13 wrote: All this pearl clutching about minor layer lines when the community at large can barely remove mould lines or drill barrels...
Or even assemble entire models, let alone paint them. TBH detail is actually detrimental for a lot of players' attempts to have an army not looking like trashcan vomit, becauce it makes painting and assembly harder.
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
This is the best analysis in the entire thread. The widget fetishists seem to have found Marvel Crisis Protocol so maybe Warmachine can be left alone this time around 😺
I really hope this works out for PP.
Exploiting synergy sounds like an euphemism for netdecking and risk management can be a fancy name for rolling well
Thank you, I prefer elements that are player dependant in a good game - in a wargame it's maneuver and placement.
Azreal13 wrote: All this pearl clutching about minor layer lines when the community at large can barely remove mould lines or drill barrels...
Plus all the people screaming that 3D printing is the future that will kill GW and traditional cast models.
Honestly right now the 3D print manufacture is a storm in a teacup until we see the models themselves in our hands. It could be trash or it could be awesome. Done right it will be awesome quality; done wrong it will be trash to dangerous (eg if they seriously mess up and don't even know about the risks of hollowed models and resin traps). right now I'm going to go out on a limb and expect a mature firm like PP to have a good grasp on 3D printing and hire competent staff and designers to avoid the common pitfalls.
Exploiting synergy sounds like an euphemism for netdecking and risk management can be a fancy name for rolling well
FURY is risk management, as Warbeasts build it up and it needs to be leached back to their Warlock, any left on the Warbeast can make it attack the closest thing, and means a turn of not being able to fully control it.
Azreal13 wrote: Have they said anywhere that they're using a form of DLP printing? Because there's other techniques.
They haven't stated what machines are planned, no. Or if they're even going to have their own machines in-house, or only farming it to "professional printers." My guess is they're either going to use DLP or SLA; there's no way they're doing FDM or SLS.
You're probably right. There's no way there's an FDM machine that's up to the job, I was entertaining SLS for a minute, but with greater consideration I don't think the downsides could be overcome sufficiently for minis.
Azreal13 wrote: You're probably right. There's no way there's an FDM machine that's up to the job, I was entertaining SLS for a minute, but with greater consideration I don't think the downsides could be overcome sufficiently for minis.
Yeah, even the best SLS machines I've seen will leave a grainy texture; it's just part of the process since it's essentially gluing powder together. You can do some cool stuff since you don't need supports, but surface finish is not going to be what we miniature folks will find acceptable.
Monkeysloth wrote: If they were planning SLS they'd already be showing off Prepainted minis you could just buy and use. No assembly, just ready to unbox and play.
Totally, since you absolutely can do full color 3d prints w/ SLS. That might go down the Rackham route, which given PP's current general community of not even fully assembling their models in a lot of cases, might not actually be that bad. It would kill any painter types out there, tho.
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
This is the best analysis in the entire thread. The widget fetishists seem to have found Marvel Crisis Protocol so maybe Warmachine can be left alone this time around 😺
I really hope this works out for PP.
Exploiting synergy sounds like an euphemism for netdecking and risk management can be a fancy name for rolling well
Thank you, I prefer elements that are player dependant in a good game - in a wargame it's maneuver and placement.
Yeah, I'm with you there. But I'd say that millimetre-perfect model placement is something other than maneuvering :-) I think this has been exacerbated in Crisis Protocol in particular by the trend of playing it on Tabletop Simulator, as well as its reliance on fixed-point objectives. That said, I adore it!
"Models Can Only Attack Enemy Models: We have generally removed the ability for friendly models to target other friendly models with attacks. There are some exceptions, of course, including warbeast frenzies and models with the Berserk special rule, but for the most part, you are no longer allowed to target your own models with attacks. This not only removed what we have long felt was a potentially awkward exploit in the rules but also allowed us to further streamline rules writing and interactions."
It took four editions for PP to work this one out... Jesus wept. I honestly wonder whether the designers are idiots who accidentally stumbled upon some very cool game mechanics.
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
This is the best analysis in the entire thread. The widget fetishists seem to have found Marvel Crisis Protocol so maybe Warmachine can be left alone this time around 😺
I really hope this works out for PP.
You sir are a single point of light in the infinite, all encompassing bleakness that is this thread! Privateer Press is by no means perfect (and really no wargaming company is) but the level of hate they receive around here is fanatical. Play the games you like and leave the rest alone.
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
This is the best analysis in the entire thread. The widget fetishists seem to have found Marvel Crisis Protocol so maybe Warmachine can be left alone this time around 😺
I really hope this works out for PP.
You sir are a single point of light in the infinite, all encompassing bleakness that is this thread! Privateer Press is by no means perfect (and really no wargaming company is) but the level of hate they receive around here is fanatical. I say play the games you like and leave the rest alone.
Good luck brother, have fun playing!
I’m not that up on it, and I’m certainly not justifying it, but I think a lot of the salt comes from PP being touted as Not Games Workshop when WM was first launched, and then turning into GW But Worse.
I guess it’s like following the rise of a Punk or Anarchist Band, only to perceive them as selling out the second they get a whiff of success.
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
This is the best analysis in the entire thread. The widget fetishists seem to have found Marvel Crisis Protocol so maybe Warmachine can be left alone this time around 😺
I really hope this works out for PP.
You sir are a single point of light in the infinite, all encompassing bleakness that is this thread! Privateer Press is by no means perfect (and really no wargaming company is) but the level of hate they receive around here is fanatical. I say play the games you like and leave the rest alone.
Good luck brother, have fun playing!
I’m not that up on it, and I’m certainly not justifying it, but I think a lot of the salt comes from PP being touted as Not Games Workshop when WM was first launched, and then turning into GW But Worse.
I guess it’s like following the rise of a Punk or Anarchist Band, only to perceive them as selling out the second they get a whiff of success.
At least, that’s the impression I’ve gleaned.
It also comes from a LOT of people being burned by how they handled the transition from Mk2 to Mk3 and even more people becoming disillusioned by the mishandling of Mk3. A lot of the so-called "hate" is frustration from people who used to love/enjoy the game and is justified criticism of a company mishandling the entire situation.
I’m not that up on it, and I’m certainly not justifying it, but I think a lot of the salt comes from PP being touted as Not Games Workshop when WM was first launched, and then turning into GW But Worse.
I guess it’s like following the rise of a Punk or Anarchist Band, only to perceive them as selling out the second they get a whiff of success.
At least, that’s the impression I’ve gleaned.
Absolutely, I agree.
That being said the amount of GW diehards and PP spurned lovers that show up in these threads always makes me cringe. Regardless, I'll stop posting about it now, but I'm still cautiously optimistic.
Complete anecdote in terms of “evidence”? I dabbled in Warmachine when it first came out. But I was put off by the few games I could find being “Everyone Stomp The Noob” affairs.
Add in the perspective I got from online sources was just “play like you got a pair. Git gud scrub, plya 2 win” etc. Which just isn’t my bag.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Complete anecdote in terms of “evidence”? I dabbled in Warmachine when it first came out. But I was put off by the few games I could find being “Everyone Stomp The Noob” affairs.
Add in the perspective I got from online sources was just “play like you got a pair. Git gud scrub, plya 2 win” etc. Which just isn’t my bag.
Truly anecdotal. I had very much the opposite experience in Mk. I, and Mk. II. Much of that seems to be what what fostered by local groups, as most of that mentality was something the "TFG's" already had, but felt obligated to exude that mentality as a rationale behind being jerks.
Any community has their jerks that poison a meta, Page 5 was just an easy excuse for some.
I had an amazing time in Mk. I, and Mk. II when I was playing and running demo games. I played many a pick up or garage table game of Mk. I and Mk. II, and many of my previous play group from where I lived still call those years the most fun we have had playing tabletop games.
Mk. III was where the game started to be something I didn't enjoy but still played due to the setting.
Mk. IV.... isn't what I wanted out of the game and setting. And feels really disappointing to see where this company has ended up. With most of the fault being on their management.
I think it’s less hate and more valid criticism.
I used to be a PG. I lived and breathed Warmachine.
PP used to be a player in the TT game market.
Now they’re a shadow of their former selves, yet they’re the only ones who don’t seem to see that, and worst of all, they seem determined to not do much about it.
Things have changed. The industry has changed. The way companies market and get exposure has changed.
PP has not.
And I feel that’s where the salt comes from.
They could do so much better with just a little thought and effort. They seem to think that by just releasing stuff, people will just flock to their IP because it’s so good.
It doesn’t matter how interesting your IP is when you can’t be bothered to market it.
The main issue I see is that they at one time seemed to know what they were doing. And now they seem like a blind man fumbling around in the dark.
I guess I should also mention that I couldn’t give a crap about what GW is doing.
I’m not a GW fan and have a total of one 40k model just to paint, and two warbands for Underworlds so my son and I can play. The only TT game that’s gotten my attention of late if Crisis Protocol, which incidentally is made by former PP staff…..I want Warmachine to do well. But I fear it won’t from too many missteps.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Complete anecdote in terms of “evidence”? I dabbled in Warmachine when it first came out. But I was put off by the few games I could find being “Everyone Stomp The Noob” affairs.
Add in the perspective I got from online sources was just “play like you got a pair. Git gud scrub, plya 2 win” etc. Which just isn’t my bag.
“Play like you got a pair” was a pretty good reason to hope PP failed all by itself. The fact that their obnoxious, toxic attitude filtered down and killed the game isn’t a surprise, but karma.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Complete anecdote in terms of “evidence”? I dabbled in Warmachine when it first came out. But I was put off by the few games I could find being “Everyone Stomp The Noob” affairs.
Add in the perspective I got from online sources was just “play like you got a pair. Git gud scrub, plya 2 win” etc. Which just isn’t my bag.
“Play like you got a pair” was a pretty good reason to hope PP failed all by itself. The fact that their obnoxious, toxic attitude filtered down and killed the game isn’t a surprise, but karma.
It also hasn't been a thing since... 2009, I think?
As ever I’m not knocking the game, or even the player base as such. Just illustrating I was unlucky enough to be shown the ropes by those solely interested in quick and easy wins against a clueless newcomer.
That would put me off any game. It just so happened to be Warmachine for me.
(Seriously, I am joking, and didn't mean to be That Guy in my earlier reply)
They would probably be very content to eventually have that problem.
So I take that back. It isn't iffy, its still just really dumb.
